There is a valid historic mistrust of Satmar Hasidic developers. We don't want a repeat of what happened in Bloomingburg, NY in Sullivan county. There, the developer submitted a scope of work that was originally low density luxury housing with, you guessed it, tennis courts, etc., then changing the scope during construction to allow high density housing, then selling, or rather, renting the units to Section 8 housing Hasidim, with the associated burden on the county resources. That developer went to jail, but the damage had already been done. Our fear in Orange county is a repeat of that.
551
@Phil
So you shouldn't trust a Chasidic developer because another Chasidic developer did something wrong?
How racist would that sound if you replaced 'Chasidic' with 'Black'?
We shouldn't trust this black developer because another black developer did something illegal.
That sounds pretty bigoted to me. I am not suggesting you are a bigot, but rather that you may want to reevaluate your views on this one.
41
@cathy farris
They are "taking it over, so they can breed on to their hearts content"?
Anytime you describe a group as "breeding" or "taking over" there is a problem.
Your comment is not different than people who say immigrants are taking over, or that immigrants are coming here to have babies to turn America into a non-white country.
White supremacists, like the one in El Paso, believe that others are coming into our country to take it over and turn it into a non-white country. This seems to be a similar fear to the one you are expressing.
Also, the suggestion that they should "assimilate" is another idea popular with nationalists. They believe their culture (white culture, american culture, french culture, western culture, etc.) will disappear at the hands of other groups.
I ask you to reevaluate your views.
42
@Phil
So you should mistrust a group because of one bad actor from that group?
16
I grew up near the Hasidim in Monsey, NY. I even delivered groceries to their homes for a little while. The typical 3 bedroom home probably had on average 4 families living on the premises, each in their own corner of the house. There were more kids running around than could be counted.
244
@William Jefferson
And most if not all not inoculated, rules do not apply to some apparently.
64
@William Jefferson Me, too! We were probably near each other. I experienced much of the same, off of Route 306. My parents moved in 1994 after the entire neighborhood turned over. I heard by house became a day camp, cos we had a swimming pool. The issue is the insularity and lack of shared community investment. A shame.
69
@Margo Channing Among the biggest offenders are parents whose children attend Waldorf Montessori Schools - not where the Hasidim send their children.
17
The problem seems to be that Hasidim have been very savvy about the U.S. educational system as well as local law unlike other minority or religious groups. They are not separate; they are actively using their religious status to reduce their property taxes at the expense of the local schools. They are in fact double dipping, by using the same school funding in much the same way that charter schools do, to take advantage of transportation and special education funds. Some serve on school boards while not supporting or actively dismantling public education programs. Or they have organized Hasidic voting blocks to make sure their person gets elected. What needs to happen is a change in the local tax laws so that public school funds can only be used for programs that take place in the public schools.
104
Run. Just run. Life is short y’all. You won’t win Chester. No one ever has. Not after the accusations of antisemitism are slung. No knock laws are lame and you can’t afford the attorneys. Theirs are usually free. . The government refuses to do the job of enforcing laws and preventing fraudulent practices against it. The Hasidim are systematically defrauding the government. Contracts with society? That is laughable.
76
How would people react had the developers been black? Or, Asian? Or, Hispanic? Or, devout Catholics who follow Papal recommendations to not use birth control? Or, Amish who often have large families? Substitute any other minority, and the outrage would have been palpable. The verbiage is clearly anti-Semitic, and we should call it out for what it is. The people of Chester should be ashamed of themselves. In the age of Trump, it seems like people feel free to be publicly racist without any of the usual social restraints on such behavior. It's a sad time in America.
41
@Skeptic not a good comparison. I live in the area. We are quite multicultural. (I am Puerto Rican and Cuban), and the Amish pay taxes yet send their kids to their own schools, where they are given a decent enough education. They are also kind and interact with their non-Amish neighbors. The Hasidim are quite segregationist and refuse to assimilate one iota, despite having roots in this country going back post World War II. Why are they given a free pass?
157
@Skeptic--youve never seen firsthand what the hasidic community does to a town it moves into. Takes over school boards and then vetoes budgets to lower school taxes. Schools then have to cut programs. But hasidic kids dont attend public schools, they attend their own yeshiva schools. Who suffers? The original residents kids whose educational and sports programs have been cut. It's not pretty.
99
@Skeptic
This is not anti-semitic. It's fear of what will happen to a community based on what has happened to other communities.
Yet there will always be people like you ready to call it discrimination
70
The lifestyle of the Hasidim is unsustainable. You can’t have lots of kids who then have lots of kids and on and on and not impact the environment negatively. They don’t understand this because they don’t live in the real world
129
Regardless of what one may think of having their neighborhood inhabited by clannish, religious orthodoxy whether it be Jewish Christian Moslem Hindu or whatever. this controversy makes clear that school funding and educational policy should be under the control of the state or, preferably, the federal government. Local school rule can be easily subverted by local groups interested in their own religious agendas rather than in the well-being of all children in the district.
398
@RLW--i agree that "Local school rule can be easily subverted by local groups interested in their own religious agendas rather than in the well-being of all children in the district."
But do I want the federal govt overseeing education? I'm not so sure about that either.
21
@RLW In no way does this controversy make clear the need for Federal control over local schools. You live in Chicago. Are you really suggesting that congressman Louie Gohmert of Texas and Steve King of Iowa should have some say over your kid's education? Evangelical fanatics have little impact on Chicago and Dallas public schools, but under Federal control they most certainly would. Our tradition of local control ensures that the values of our community are reflected by the public school system. It also empowers local residents to make needed changes when the community diversify. It's not perfect, but it is a lot better than having a goose like Mitch McConnell choosing our kid's textbooks!
22
Of the many issues addressed in this (apparently) well-researched article and the (mostly) intelligent comments, the one that stands out for me is the population issue. Two hundred years ago large families were the norm in agriculture-based rural communities. Farming has changed, and for both better and worse the human race had evolved. As I understand it, having as many children as possible is a basic tenet of faith for the Hassids. In today's world, this is simply unacceptable, especially when there doesn't seem to be a plan for creating employment. People were writing books about the need to have fewer children fifty years ago; they have been proven correct to say the least. Even the Irish have learned to control themselves, their backward Church notwithstanding. For it to be an article of faith to have so many kids, and to have the State support them is selfish and un-American. I don't want these people anywhere near me, not because they are Jewish, but because they are photo-fascist fundamentalist nuts.
99
@mcguire from Massachusetts, have you met these people before making these obscene generalization that they are all "nuts"? Methinks not.
12
@mcguire I agree...…..look no further than the Lakewood, NJ community.
41
Take a ride through Kiryas Joel and see what it's like and how they live. It's really an eye opener on so many visceral levels.
88
@Michael T- Kyrias Joel is number one atop the National poverty according to a 2011 NY Times article. "About 70 percent of the village’s 21,000 residents live in households whose income falls below the federal poverty threshold, according to the Census Bureau. Median family income ($17,929) and per capita income ($4,494) rank lower than any other comparable place in the country. Nearly half of the village’s households reported less than $15,000 in annual income. About half of the residents receive food stamps, and one-third receive Medicaid benefits and rely on federal vouchers to help pay their housing costs." (NYT 4/20/11) Additionally, there's a sign just outside the village in both English and Spanish asking outsiders to cover their legs and arms, use appropriate language and maintain gender separation in public.
77
@Michael T How do they live?
5
@Richard Rubin
They are subsidized by taxpayers.
53
What a silly headline.
They are not trying to keep the "Hasidic Out". They are trying to avoid a huge influx of heavily subsidized people that have 9 children per couple, demand services, pay relatively little in taxes and thereby bankrupt municipalities.
510
@Will.
You make a good point. It would be interesting to see the reaction of these Hasidic Jews if, in fact, gentiles or even secular Jews bought homes and lived in that community. The Hasidim would make sure that it just wouldn't happen. The Hasidim are very insular and not prone to be part of the larger community.
68
Anybody even vaguely familiar with the Hasidic community knows one thing for sure: They don't mix outside of their own.
So imagine what a rather small town with a rather small population that's not overwhelmingly Jewish (or Hasidic) might think with the prospect of having a tract of land developed in the area which will essentially be off-limits to them once completed.
And then there's the fact that the Hasidim is encouraged to raise large families, so it wouldn't be long before they'd have to build more housing again and stretch the budget of the municipality,
It's no wonder this town isn't on board.
311
@N. Smith
There are huge tracts of land all over the country which are off-limits to many of us, maybe to you as well. Tracts of land where blacks can't go, where gays can't go; where people who dress differently or talk differently can't go; places where women are afraid for their safety; where immigrants are afraid. Ideally, no one should feel "off limits" anywhere in their own country. It would be ironic if the response to having a place which might one day feel off limits to one group is to insist that there be a tract which is pre-emptively off limits to another group.
If a town is against large families, let them come up with a way to make laws or taxes discouraging large families. If it's against insularity, come up with a way to mandate or encourage co-mingling. Towns already have laws which are designed to charge residents and developers for the burden they put on the municipality: they're called taxes, and towns should use them uniformly and fairly to protect the fair distribution of resources.
But identifying a certain sub-group for exclusionary treatment by color, religion, affiliation, gender, or national origin is still illegal in the U.S.
38
@s
"But identifying a certain sub-group for exclusionary treatment by color , religion, affiliation, gender or national origin is till illegal in the U.S."
This is what you say.
So how do you explain a U.S. President who does just that?
And yes, towns pay taxes -- but that doesn't mean they want to pay MORE.
26
@s
The land is "donated" to the temple as a tax write off.. The entire enclave then becomes a tax free haven.
Religious organizations don't have to pay taxes and every member who lives their makes donations instead rent or mortgage.
It's a sad cycle that happens over and over again..
75
I hope rationale people, which doesn't include the crooked state politicians (including presidential candidate de Blasio) that the Hasidics have in their pockets, don't equate this with anti-semitism.
Remember the measles, remember, the uneducated mass of children that learn to do nothing more than recite the
Talmud, despite the fact that the New York State education law requires the teaching of a host of subjects.
122
@george eliot
Yes.
The New York Times has published many articles on the suspicious connection of this sect and local politicians.
Along with the illegal education standards and the refusal to vaccinate, there were others on the sexual abuse of young girls and how they were terrorized into being silent by the men of the community.
Someone needs to check for an Epstein Connection!
39
I find many comments in this comment section repulsive. I find the gist basically to be that people are fine in general with diversity, but not with Chasidim. That is, people are fine with people of other backgrounds, so long as those backgrounds aren't too different. They are interested in diversity and acceptance, but not in genuine diversity or in genuine acceptance. They are not interested in accepting everyone. They may be fine with Jews in general, but not these Jews who are too different.
There is also a lot of stereotyping and fear-mongering that we would never accept for other groups.
Right now, the top comment, which has 124 'Recommends' basically says we shouldn't trust Chasidic developers because a different Chasidic developer did something illegal many years ago. Can you imagine if that comment had been about black people? Had it said, "we shouldn't trust a black developer because another black developer did something illegal" would that be okay? If it were about black people would 124 people have recommended it?
This is just one example. The comments section on this article is ripe with many more: stereotyping, fear-mongering, blaming a group as a whole for the actions of individuals, etc.
People who read the NYT often complain of intolerance towards other groups, but those same people are promoting intolerance here. This is xenophobia. They are fine with people who are sufficiently like them, but not with very small minority groups that aren't like them.
49
@ELThe median income for a household in the village was $15,138, and the median income for a family was $15,372. Males had a median income of $25,043 versus $16,364 for females. The per capita income for the village was $4,355. About 61.7% of families and 62.2% of the population were below the poverty line, including 63.9% of those under age 18 and 50.5% of those age 65 or over.
According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation, and the largest percentage of residents who receive food stamps. More than five-eighths of Kiryas Joel residents live below the federal poverty line and more than 40 percent receive food stamps, according to the American Community Survey, a U.S. Census Bureau study of every place in the country with 20,000 residents or more
38
@EL
I find your comment repulsive because it is making a case for religious discrimination, when it's not strictly the religion of the people that brings concern, but their lifestyle and the way they live
31
@A
That is Kiryas Joel. It is not clear that this community would be anything else like that.
Also, the numbers for KJ are distorted as it is also the youngest on average town in the country. The average age is 13. Accordingly income statistics will mainly reflect the earnings of people in their 20s, which is not representative of the whole.
5
I think opposition to this Hasidic housing development is totally understandable. It's not anti-Semitism, just because they're Jewish, there are millions of non-Hasidic Jews who would probably be completely welcome.
As I see it, here are the problems with a large Hasidic settlement, anywhere. These are generalities but they're generally true, and it's got nothing to do with the religion, which is basically the same as Christianity and Islam (same God for all three).
The Hasidim, in general, have large families that they can't really support financially. They prefer to study the Torah rather than work, and this is a major problem within Israel as the government winds up subsidizing them. They do not mingle with non-Hasidim. They do not get measles vaccines, or others, and the large part of the recent measles outbreak in NY state is due to Hasidic communities' resistance to vaccination (also in part due to conspiracy-theorist anti-vaxxers). They have an archaic, misogynistic worldview.
In short, they will never integrate into any community or support it in any way. Their fundamentalist religion is as xenophobic and problematic as every other fundamentalist religion.
I hope that was neutral enough not to sound prejudiced, but to answer accusations of anti-Semitism in advance, my father and brother are Jewish, so I laugh off any such allegations. But like most Jewish people I know, they wouldn't want Hasidim for neighbors either.
503
@Dan Stackhouse I'm not completely disagreeing with you about what the massive influx of a Hasidic community would mean to Chester, but when you say you are not anti-Semitic because your father and brother are Jewish suggests you have disavowed your own Judaism, whether religious, ethnic or cultural. I'm not saying this is the case, but there have been many anti-Semitic Jews throughout history who have done the same thing.
19
@Dan Stackhouse
Dan, 100% accurate in your posting, you've hit the nail on the head. Facts are facts. Thank you for putting this into perspective and doing it so eloquently.
93
@Dan Stackhouse
Having blanket prejudices against an entire religion ("anti-semitism") is bad; having blanket prejudices but merely against a sub-group ("anti-Hasidism") is not somehow better. (Consider: "I'm not against Christians... just those Presbyterians. My sister is Baptist, so I can't possibly be against Christians." The statement can be 100% true... but still not a good thing.)
It's all for the good that you have Jewish family, and that you bear no ill will towards Jews generally. But harboring a prejudice against a "sub-group" (whether Jewish or other) is still a prejudice that's worthy of self-reflection. Each of us is part of some sub-group or another, and each of us deserves to be judged as an individual.
(btw: much NYT reporting on the measles outbreak accurately noted that most Hasidim are vaccinated, and that most Hasidic leaders advocated loudly in favor of vaccination.)
27
An episode of This American Life explored the East Ramapo school board, which is dominated by Hasidic and Ultra-Orthodox board members while almost all the Hasidic and Orthodox kids attend private religious schools. The board slashed the school budget and it's apparently causing huge problems there. My immediate reaction was to wonder whether this has anything to do with the Chester's fears.
329
The Hasidic approach is do it and then "sue us" to take it down. There is a home in NY for which the plans stated a "garage". It is a full blown mini-temple complete with major parking problems in a residential neighborhood. And yes, now it is a tax-free property. There is white flight when it comes to Hasidic families. They move it, trash a home, and then the other home values drop. You try and sell your home, you can't until it's rock bottom. They milk the system, control public school boards, and drain the schools of sports and activities. They have attorneys who work for free and drain the towns with lawsuits and then use those funds to continue building. THAT's a huge source of funds outside of public aid. It has nothing to do with faith when towns push back.
49
I am appalled that so many commenters are siding with this blatant anti-Semitism. Yes. That's what it is. The people of Chester (and apparently a lot of NYT readers) assume that because the developers are Hasidim, that the houses will be sold only to other Hasidim. So, of course "they" with their large families, must be kept out. How long before you start calling them "invaders". If K. Hovnanian were developing the site, would you jump to the conclusion that they'd only be selling to Armenians?
11
The Hasidim have a track record, that’s why. Anyone who follows real estate, understands welfare, tax incentives for “houses of worship” and block voting knows that the Hasidim destroy property values. It doesn’t happen in Brooklyn because the difference in taxation. Hasidim as a group don’t care about property value - they’ll drive it right into the ground
44
But for the fact of what has happened in communities where the Hasidim have done the awful things everyone is citing. It is not prejudice but the reality, unfortunately.
35
The comments here are amazing. If this town was working hard to keep blacks out would you all encourage this and heap vitriol on the black population?
12
@Greenie It’s unfortunate that you have no idea what will become of Chester if this development gets built.
26
@Greenie You don't understand the situation because you are writing from Vermont! There is no comparison between Blacks and Hasidics -- just ridiculous.
30
Why wasn’t Bloomingburg mentioned in this article? A perfect example how a developer used anti-Semitic when people protested against their development. And what happened? It became a hasidic community. Wake up people
21
Hasidim are religious extremists who have, in NY state, siphoned away taxpayer money to fund their own parochial schools, to the direct detriment of non-Jewish schoolchildren and their parents. This is wrong.
I am Jew by birth but I am pro-education and believe ALL religion should be kept fully separate from state and federal funding. I also believe that all women should be taught to read and think for themselves. Many sects of Orthodox Judaism (and probably lots of other religious extremists) would disagree with the above two sentences. That is why they face opposition from those outside their insular community—not antisemitism.
63
The Chasids should start their own town far upstate so they can pay for themselves and won't destroy a local school system and kill property values for the the town's residents while also raising their taxes.
37
Question to everyone, how does a family afford a new house, while receiving Public Assistance? What happened to cap on the number of children, work requirements? Gaming the system is the Social Services problem, certifications are required. If there’s an issue, apply the rules. This appears to be cloaked In blaming the Hasidic communities rather than the system that allows them to receive benefits. This country and its administration has targeted legal immigrants and are proceeding to block citizenship based on the likelihood they would receive benefits. Citing the impact of being a public charge. I’m just blown away at the bias in these communities. Does all this complaining make you Anti Semitic ?
8
@Elaine...Question to everyone, how does a family afford a new house, while receiving Public Assistance?
The same way they pay for cartloads of groceries with an EBT card and load it all into a brand new toyota Pruis. I watch them do it.
21
Israel has had its share of problems with the Hasidim , they don't serve in the army (which is mandatory for all Israelis ) have many children , don't do an honest days work , leech off social services and vote in blocks and get out of it by claiming religious study . I don't think this small town is being racist ; they are familiar with what has happened in other communities .Many comparisons can be made , suffice it to say , they're clever enough to use the money the the state provides for school districts for their own purposes , and yell racism when opposed .
47
This is not an anti-semitism issue. It is a protest against the practices of this small group of people. It is a fact that they do not want to join the existing community, they want to replace it. They have in the past used legal loopholes to damage the existing communities in other locations they have moved.
45
Having lived amongst the Hasidic Jewish community for 30 years in Williamsburg Brooklyn, I have to say they are not terrible neighbors, they keep to themselves but so do I, to a certain extent. Every once in awhile I would see a few of then in a local bar which was surprising at first but they were there for the same reason we were. You must realized and accept that they live entirely by their own rules, like a lot of secluded religious groups. Their tendency to "game the system" is what everyone is so upset about, so this small town should get prepared in order to minimize the problems other communities went through.
21
Wow. Can you imagine if this group were black? It seems like it's becoming increasingly OK to voice and act upon anti-Semitic feelings.
15
@MHW
I live out west and people here have the same concerns about large groups of polygamist Mormons, counter culture ‘gurus’ setting up ashrams, and white nationalist building fortified compounds. Anytime a large, insular group arrives somewhere en masse the locals will be understandably wary.
40
@MHW
If you were from the area you would know the actual issues. This is not about Anti-Semitism.
If I lived in Chester I would not want this community to start, and I am Jewish.
36
I am flabbergasted by those comments agreeing with the discrimination of Hassidic Jews supposedly moving in Chester.
Just change any mention of Hassidic Jews for African-American and you may realize the profound antisemitism.
Hassidic Jews have the right, as do African-American, Asian-American, etc to live wherever they want in this country.
Furthermore, while their community may be inward looking, they generally are family people, low crime and are not known to bother other residents. Is it possible that it would lead to increased school fees.... ? Possibly, but is that a reason for discrimination ?
Shame on the officials of Chester and shame on those defending them.
13
I had an informal conversation with a friend about this a year ago involving a NJ town that has growing Hassidic population.
The strain the large families put on local social services is enormous, as they just apply and load up on as many government welfare and subsidy programs available.
But the sneaky one he told me is that they aggressively take advantage of tax breaks to claim their houses and homes are temples. I looked at Ramapo (which was the city we were discussing), but there appears to be some merit to this point.
I live way out West so it’a not a topic covered here, but I did not see any mention of it. If it was, I apologize for my sloppy reading.
25
@Andy
Many actually will run synagogues out of their basements. It is cheaper than building a building. They have space set aside which costs money, and they have religious expenses, like purchasing Torahs (which run about 50k each).
Heck, my synagogue these days is run out of a basement and I am not Chasidic.
9
Food stamps and public assistance were never created or meant to sustain a way of life. They were meant as a hand up. The Hasidim in large numbers with their constant reliance on public assistance are a financial burden on any community.
Any social justice warrior denying that this post is purely economic is only fooling themselves.
38
I hope you feel the same way about the enormous subsidies we have been providing to inner-city blacks for the last 50 years as well as to whites in Appalachia.
When welfare becomes a way of life and perpetuates a refusal to get an education and a job, and increases with the number of children people have, it is time to find another way.
Birth control: after one, maybe two, you're on your own. Pay for those babies yourselves.
Middle-class people do.
12
What? Did I read that the use of Section 8 vouchers is prevalent? The only time I approve of these is if it will make a social difference for the young children of a poor black family. If this family is able to live in a good school district then I'm all for these vouchers. The Hasidic children get very limited education
8
No one is talking about the real reason this project has been halted. The fact of the matter is that the 72 hour pumping tests done nearly 20 years ago at the behest of the New York State DOH and the Orange County DOH found that water availability for such a high-density housing project was marginal at best. Since there has been significant development in the neighborhood since that time, it is almost a sure thing that the water availability will now be deficient. Therefore, if the 431 home development is built, numerous homes will either have their wells go dry, the water quality compromised, or both. Therefore, the NYS DOH and the Orange County DOH have made the perfectly reasonable demand that new 72 hour pumping tests be conducted. The Town of Chester added another condition, that the wells of all neighboring properties be monitored during this test. The Greens at Chester know that these test will show a water deficit and that the project will need to be either scaled down dramatically or abandoned all together. Therefore, they have chosen to not only pull out the "discrimination card" but also to vigorously pursue lawsuits against the Town of Chester in an effort to accept the, now obsolete, water tests of two decades ago. That's what this is all about … water and the preservation of water rights for the residents of Chester. Any effort to call this discrimination is totally off base.
45
This Hasidic problem is severe and grows alarmingly and when reasonably thought through ultimately represents an existential threat to those other than themselves.
27
The horrible distillation of the opposition: They’re too different and there are too many of them and they don’t mix well with us, therefore we are justified in rejecting them. Also, we might become a minority ourselves. Therefore: No development. Welcome to the land of liberty. The ghost of Emma Lazarus weeps.
10
I was a Hasidic Jew who was raised in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, the stronghold of Satmar Hasidim, who want now to build a new neighborhood, I abandoned Hasidic Judaism because it rejects secular education and culture and is fiercely hostile to non-Jews. Hence Hasidim wear their medieval clothing to separate themselves as much as possible from Gentiles.
I was raised in the 1960s, during the Vietnam War era, when young men were drafted in droves into the army. None of the Hasidim served in army, able to be exempted because of "rabbinical" studies. It is another way that these people will have nothing in common with the residents of Chester.
I sympathize with the citizens of Chester who don't want this new housing development and new taxes to pay for no good reason. As the Times mentions, nearby Kiryas Joel founded by these Hasidim is one of the poorest towns in America, many living off the generosity of the government. There is no benefit to the people of Chester in having a people with an alien culture living nearby.
268
@New Yorker What would be a good reason.?
4
I have waited and watched as videos of Alex Jamieson and the town boards words have been splashed all over local papers, and no officials did anything. When I posted them on the DA of Orange County fb page, asking what he would do about it and citing a Federal ruling that free speech did not cover officials while speaking in an official capacity, and my comments were removed and I was banned. The conspiracy to cover up the anti semetism in Orange County has for a long time been brewing. The officials make a living off of hate and I hope the Hasidim destroy them in court.
7
www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/opinion/yeshivas-literacy-new-york.amp.html
I remember reading the above piece last year written by a man raised in this community who because of his lack of access to education was a functionally illiterate adult who struggled to attain a GED. How can states permit these insular communities to deny children the right to a basic education? By denying young people the ability to speak and write in English (it’s profane), while limiting their acquisition of even the most rudimentary skills and knowledge necessary to live in the world, you create a cycle of dependency based in ignorance and fear. Children aren’t due more protection that that?
60
This reminds me of the hostility that Jewish residents of Scarsdale, Short Hills and a million other heavily Jewish towns in the Tri-State area face every day.
Oh wait, no, it doesn't. There is no such opposition, at least not of any consequence.
Religion has nothing to do with it. Taxes have everything to do with it.
48
I live close to a heavily orthodox, Hasidic neighborhood in Brooklyn. It is true that this community does not make any effort to connect, integrate or be part of our mixed neighborhood. Often times you see men walking in the streets to avoid coming close to a female, which btw I find extremely offensive. What baffles me most is how actually Un-American they appear to be. Major holidays, like July 4th, Thanksgiving and New Years Day do not exist in their calendars. Kids go to school like on any other day. Sometimes I wonder how they view themselves.
57
@Karen B.
Well New Years is straight-up Christian, so of course they are not going to celebrate that.
As for the others, what do you want them to do? Throw a BBQ? Would that satisfy you?
There are cultural differences. Chasidic Jews view learning as one of the greatest goods. As such learning, or going to school, is not see as a chore. Heck, during festivities people will stop celebrating to spend time learning.
Also, yes they have modesty laws. Men don't freely interact with women and vice versa. They also try to avoid bodily contact. I apologize if this upsets you.
7
Margo, this sort of comment is beneath you. Your others make sense although could be disagreed with. This one is a little nasty.
5
But Chasidic Jews only study the Torah.
7
What is so interesting about this article is the way it reveals how in thrall to the random desires of developers all communities are. Despite what individuals have spent their life savings on, despite what they have envisioned their community to be, a developer can upend everything into something no one wants. Making sure that the press frames the dispute as discriminatory or racist is a time worn developer pose to push through unwanted development. It might be true, it might not, but the point is that only developers have control over the future of a place, not the people currently living there.
32
This is racism. You cannot keep a people out of your town because of their beliefs/practices if they're being lawful. If you don't like how the town changes feel free to move.
13
@Stephen K. Then the housing should be open to anyone who wants to live there. In Brooklyn there are thousands of newly constructed apartment buildings that exclude everyone but Hasids. None of these apartments are available to people who are not Hasidic. That is discriminatory.
39
@Stephen K., Jews are not a race. There is no racism here.
It does seem that there is an objection to the possibility that a religious cult that discriminates against women and despises non-cult members might be moving into the neighborhood.
Can’t say I’m shocked.
22
From what I understand, the Hasidim in this area have little to no income. Most don't work and rely on food stamps and Medicaid. How will they afford a half million dollar house? Who is buying the houses??
47
@Laura Reich
Most do not live in million-dollar homes and many of them a shockingly poor. I have been to homes that were in disrepair with gaping holes in the ceiling and rickety furniture. Still all kids somehow go to (private school) a yeshiva and mom did not work. I don't care about religion and if people think they want to live as some jews lived 200 years ago in Eastern Europe be my guest. However, I find it more concerning that this group contributes very little in taxable income yet demands tax $$$ to support their infrastructure.
53
@Laura Reich
They don't. Some investor is buying the house, subdividing it and renting it out to 4 or more families, collecting Section 8 housing vouchers for each family. In many areas up here the building inspectors turn the other way except for at least one who is in jail.
Look at the building plans and count the kitchens and water hookups. This is a story that has been repeated over and over in Rockland County, and is usually only discovered after a disastrous fire in one of these illegally converted buildings and subsequent loss of life.
21
@Laura Reich
Once they reach sufficient numbers, as in Williamsburg, the Hasidim find a stooge to represent them in Albany. Completely subservient to their rebbe, and incurious about the world beyond their enclave, they reliably vote as a bloc for whomever the rebbe directs them to. In return for their votes, their guy in Albany makes sure their kids continue to receive no secular education, and speak English like they just got off the boat.
Perhaps this Upstate village should declare itself a theme park, depicting Jewish life as it existed in Central Europe 400 years ago; there might be some tax advantages awaiting.
25
There is a great deal to be said for preserving a community’s quality of life during development, and perhaps we can think of ways to do that which don’t discriminate against newcomers--or force the current population out by raising taxes too high.
Discriminating against people due to religion, race, or due to where their ancestors lived is immoral and un-American. However, grandfathering a tax rate for the people who originally settled an area might not be. Charging for busing to schools that aren’t public might be a way; taxing a home by the number of bedrooms and bathrooms might also be equitable.
We are facing the reverse of this situation here in Arizona, with retired folks moving to the state and voting against educating the children of the people who’ve lived here the longest, resulting in decline of quality in public education and decline in public services. People need to work together and not put up a wall at the first hint of difference.
14
I'm not sure there is a good solution for any of the parties involved. Ostensibly, principles of democracy and religious freedom stipulate that a fast growing orthodox community is entirely within its bounds to alter local town customs and values. Democracy is the rule of the majority. At the same time, the new minority does get the rug pulled out from under them.
Furthermore, with orthodox families of 9 children or more being the norm, these issues will continue to get more and more frequent.
14
Unfortunately, this is the way of the world. Take any gentrified community..a predominately Irish (just an example...I could pick any group) doesn't like when Hispanics move into their neigborhoods so the Irish leave.
That said, the Hasidim are different and I'm Jewish. People should move into a neighborhood to assimilate not to remake it. Many Hasidic men study the Torah all day and do not work. Having large families, many on public assistance, not to mention the impact on the public health (look at measle outbreak declared a public health crisis in NYC) in the area are alarming. Also alarming are Hasidics' approach to the school system. They want their own "private school (yeshivas)" for language & religious purposes while some schools educate males only to the 8th grade which certainly prepetuates the poverty cycle. One gentleman sued a school because they didn't prepare him to be productive in society. They believe in Creationism not scientific fact and evidence. Lastly, what I find most objectionable is that the Hasidim only send their children capable of reading the Torah to yeshiva but pawn off their special needs children on the public school system & BTW because there are many first-cousin marriages the disability rate of their children is higher than the general population.
If enviromental & feasability impact studies reveal that such a commonly populated community would tax local resources jeopardizing existing residents then sorry; then it's not discrimination.
64
Is any part of the resistance due to a belief that the Hasidic group will not vaccinate their children? If so, and the belief is grounded in fact, having the Hasidic people in this community is problematic. This could be reminiscent of the charges made against Jews during the plague that decimated Europe. They were falsely accused of poisoning the water in Colmar, Alsace for example, and the Jews were then slaughtered- men, women, and children. Here, sadly, however, there could be a legitimate fear of disease, if it is true, that because of not vaccinating, the Hasidic group could spread disease.
14
@Bian
Most Chasidim vaccinate. Most Chasidic rabbis say that people are obligated to vaccinate.
5
These Hasidic developments are well known scams. The developers build a bunch of houses and then sell them to investors who are assured a steady income stream from Section 8 vouchers (i.e., the taxpayers). The community then bands together to gain social services while pushing for lower property taxes (thereby enhancing the investors' bottom line). This puts enormous financial pressures on the municipalities which must then cut services to the town in general (i.e., the public school system, which the Hasidic community does not utilize).
And if the town resists, then the religion card is tossed: You must be anti-Semitic! Religion is used as a weapon against any opposition; however, these developers couldn't care less about religious doctrine. It is all a highly orchestrated money making scheme.
These towns not only have the right to say no, they have the OBLIGATION to refuse this type of municipal robbery.
91
THis is an age old battle. Now the residents of Chester New York know how the American Aboriginal People felt, although with out the slaughter.
4
Is there a point to that poor analogy
10
I know it's not the thrust of the article, but there is a bigger question here about the morality of any government - federal, state, local - subsidizing ignorance and poverty. Which is exactly what happens in a lot of these communities. Neither the adults nor the children study anything but religion, depriving them of marketable skills, but they don't see and don't bear the true costs of such a choice thanks to a matrix of federal, state and local subsidies.
Lots of articles about people leaving the Hasidic community and discovering way too late in life that they are woefully underprepared to be self-sufficient.
51
And fair play to the residents there. I wouldn't want any extremist group moving in - and that's what they are - regardless if they're Jews, Muslims, or others. What about the rights of the people who already live there?
35
Average home price: $500,000 and they're worried about buyers with annual incomes in the 20k range moving in. Either they have very generous mortgage lending practices in New York or I am missing something here?
12
@A.Tom.Mc- Investors buy these properties and rent them to Section 8 applicants. Often more than one family illegally occupy these "one family" homes.
41
@ davidoff
If the homes are rented under Sec 8 to one family, and more than one family lives there, the annual Sec 8 inspection will show that.
8
@Davidoff Thank you, I knew I was missing something. A little research revealed that PA has more exclusionary zoning laws and practices. I have never seen a half million dollar, single family home that was Section 8 eligible. That's probably why it seemed so foreign to me.
9
I'm deeply confused by this. 431 families move in. 431 families get jobs, and pay taxes. Why would this increase the tax burden on anybody? Why does anybody care who buys the houses?
5
@hatt6720
Because very often, they don't get jobs, and they don't pay taxes.
It is considered not only acceptable, but preferable, for the men to study the Torah exclusively, instead of working. And a man who does so can claim the status of Rabbi, with his family as his congregation, and deduct a portion of his house as a place of worship. Men who do work, frequently work away from the community, transported to and from their jobs by exclusive private "school buses" every morning and evening.
The women, in general, don't work. They raise their children full time.
60
@Eric, I'm going to call malarkey on that.
1) If they don't have any money, how are they buying a house?
2) You can always pass an ordinance that says that places of worship are still required to pay property taxes
3) Even if the men are working out of town, who cares? Their families are still spending inside the town.
1
@hatt6720 they will not get jobs. Most would be on a welfare system that county has to provide
38
In today’s local paper, Orange County now has to build a completely new sewage facility dumping into our beloved Hudson River to accommodate this fundamentalist group’s outrageous growth. Thousands of new developments are being built in their new towns and villages throughout Orange County. We who live here know they are only ‘poor’ for the government. Drive around as stay at home moms shop ‘the commons’ and malls with 6-8 children in new SUV’s. We see the environmental destruction from people who supposedly love G-d and creation. They love themselves and Trump only.
66
@Julie
Declaring a cul-de-sac of single homes as condos helps. Going to a business agent to get a plumber helps his taxes. Eight kids and declaring $15K in Flatbush in a very nice house as a machinist tells you something isn't being reported.
26
Very sympathetic to the locals. There’s a This American Life episode about what happened when a Hasidic community out maneuvered the town they moved into in upstate NY. The Hasidic community didn’t want their taxes going to the local secular school so they gained control over the school board and proceeded to gut the local schools. Students couldn’t get enough class credits to graduate high school as the new school board removed all classes etc. in order to save $. Worth a listen and you’ll have a better understanding of what’s at stake. Also the show revealed that most in the Hasidic community were on public benefits/welfare in order to support their large families.
95
@Frances--totally true, I live not far from there. What they also do is marry only within their religion. They do not file the marriage with the state. Therefore the mothers are considered single mothers by the state and collect welfare as such.
49
Municipalities should not be required to ignore development issues in order to avoid the appearance of discrimination. As long as the limitations on square footage are applied to all new development going forward, they are not discriminatory. If there were a religious right to build large houses, the developers in my town would incorporate themselves as the First Church of McMansions.
11
When I read things like this I'm reminded of my brother's line from a lifetime ago. Deep down inside they all hate us.
14
@Harry
It's not even deep down; it's the one hatred most people can agree on.
3
@Harry Who is "they" and who is "us" in your construction? I'm reading quite a few comments from secular Jews that mirror almost word for word the concerns raised by (presumably) non-Jewish commenters. They boil down to reasonable, run-of-the-mill concerns about who is going to pay for what.
25
I believe you, Harry -- in part.
1
It is clearly discriminatory to oppose the development for religious reasons.
If the developers are following zoning rules, they should be allowed to build. If an undue burden is being placed on current residents by this development, the town should review its tax structure and make adjustments so the burden can be shared more equitably, regardless of the religious affiliation of the residents.
5
@Jazz Paw. When the hasidim move in they co opt local government and neutralize any attempt to block the Hasidic agenda. It is a successful strategy as seen on the documentary "Wild Wild West". The only difference is that the Hasidim hide behind the Jewish religion and not "Rashni" religion. Watch that documentary and you will see the parallels.
31
What is most upsetting about the article and the associated comments from readers is the realization that had we changed the words "Hasidic Jew" to "undocumented alien" or "people of color" the opinions cited would be completely opposite.
Could anyone imagine municipal officials arguing that they shoud keep out blacks from their town ?
Or refugees from Syria or Guatemala ?
The outcry would be enormous.
But when it comes to Jews, then suddenly its "understandable" why towns would want to keep them out.
The argument that school costs would go up for the town is no different from the idea that undocumented aliens also need space for schools, or that single mothers need more government-supported resources than married couples with children.
The stench here is overpowering.
88
@G, I am Jewish. The ill-will towards Hasidic Jews in Rockland and Orange County are based on the local communities experience with Kiryas Joel and other settlements. Many in these communities ignore local rules, environmental laws, and then defund schools for kids of other ethnicities, etc...Many also opt to live off of welfare. If they wish to follow laws and be good neighbors then there would likely not be a problem. It is not just the moral responsibility of locals, or Americans for that matter, to be welcoming of immigrant and religious communities...it is also up to newcomers to make an effort to integrate and be tolerant of those who live there already. This unfortunate situation doesn’t happen in a vacuum. The concerns are legitimate.
182
@G This comment is the epitome of a false equivalency. Most groups of people integrate and assimilate, weaving themselves into the fabric of the community. Hasidim does not, and aggressively so.
115
@AREMN As a reformed Jew who moved to Rockland in 1963 I watch the destruction of the former number one school district in the state caused by The Hassid Block vote. They use state money to buy religious books and that’s merely the tip of the iceberg. I’m sure the houses this developer has planned consists of 4-8 bedrooms and will have two kitchens. Who do you think they’ve designed these units for? Me? A typical family in the area with 1.82 children? RUILUPA is law they hide behind so thank Bill Clinton who passed it so Hillary could get the block vote in NY and become it’s Senator. This law must be repealed and home rule must be restored to the communities directly impacted by it.
78
This is bigotry against "The Other". It is wrong, intolerant and Unamerican.
13
What is “un-American” is that the Hasidic communities discriminate against women, exclude non Hasidim from their community, make no attempt to integrate and deny basic education to their children especially the girls.
51
I would seek counsel and guidance from the local government of Lakewood, NJ and their experience in dealing with the Hasidic population. That will add some real-world context and experience with the challenges.
19
I'm not sure which is more shocking: that a town in the United States of America is working hard to prevent a development solely based on the fear that people of another religion might move there, or that so many commenters agree with their discriminatory actions. Wow. Open discrimination is now ok. What a sad commentary on what the US has become.
13
@catfriend
It’s not just a fear of people of a different religion at all. Try googling: state of New York and east Ramapo school district. It will give you some idea of the dynamic involved here. I formerly lived in Rockland county. For a time my children attended school in the east Ramapo school district. My wife taught in that SD. I know from what I speak of. Rockland Co. has the highest percentage of Jews of any county in the US. The animosity between non Hasidic Jews and the Hasidim is palpable. So, you see it’s not just a question of religion at all. It’s a problem of culture. This culture clash is not not just limited to just one or two counties in NY State. The problem exists even in the state of Israel. The people in Chester have good reason to be concerned, even fearful.
56
@Ken G So have a problem with state and local officials who are taking money in order to ignore or table legislation that would change these types of problems, not a community of people... call your local representative if you would like to see a change in the way the local municipalities work.
6
Not sure how or if it would be possible, but one way to defuse this situation (and assuage fears of a repeat of what allegedly happened in Ramapo - where the Hasidic population used its electoral leverage to gut funding for public schools) might be the passage of a law (now) that sets property taxes at a certain minimum, ties them to the number of persons living on the property, or something similar.
Such a law would ease locals' fears of their schools getting defunded, and scare off any homebuyers who are angling to have their children educated with someone else's money. If the developers truly don't have an agenda as to who buys the homes they're building, they should have no objection.
19
I don't understand the purpose of that. I live in a county with super high property taxes but I send 2 of my children to private schools. Are you saying because there are 5 people living in my home my taxes should be higher? What would that achieve other than to discourage young people from moving into counties like that? Who would the old couples and old widows/widowers who own their homes sell to when they want to retire to Florida?
8
@dina I'm not necessarily saying your taxes should be higher if your household is bigger, but it's not a crazy idea. People who can't afford private school should not be subsidizing you, and if it grates on you to pay high property taxes even though you are privately educating your children, you are free to move, or to run for office on a platform of cutting property taxes.
But put aside any novel questions of tying property tax levels to number of people in a household. Why not just take current property taxe rates and pass a law that they can be reduced only by a 4/5ths (or something similarly high) majority vote?
7
@HenryParsons Yes, agree its time to re-do the school tax funding in NY. There are other groups living here with several families in a single family home to avoid paying the school tax, starving the school district of the local resources needed to educate all of the community's children. It's high time NY State funds all communities to the point that every child can have an appropriate education, rather than an adequate education, at public school.
9
I watched "Shtisel", on Netflix, a series about an ultra Orthodox family in Israel. I live in a rural region in the West, and have never even met an Orthodox person. This show is my only window on the culture, my understanding is clearly limited and I'm probably not qualified to comment, but I'm going to.
It was a well done and thoughtful show. I couldn't help but admire the family in the series I watched. They had their problems, of course, but they were close knit, caring and responsible to their loved ones. Though their personal freedoms were often, to me, painfully restricted and at times warped, they had tremendous personal security in terms of family ties, strong and grounding tradition, and community support.
I can't help but think there are things for the larger culture to learn from this group, and it is a shame that their insularity prevents that. But they would not succeed without that insularity. It's a conundrum.
10
@sues
Please remember this is a TV show, with the problems of every TV show: how to get viewers to watch the show then watch the ads and buy the products (there are ads when it is shown on Israeli TV). While the show may serve to introduce outsiders, Jewish and non-Jewish alike to Jewish holidays, kosher laws etc this is NOT a documentary and may not represent the actual culture of the Hasidic community in Israel: it certainly doesn't represent the Hassidic community in New York State.
22
I looked up the population of Chester. It's 12,187. If the developer builds the 431 homes reported in this article, and if each home houses two school-age children, that will be a heavy hit to the town's resources. An additional 862 children will require about 40 more classrooms, 40 more teachers and even more support staff. And what will be done about waste water and sewage treatment. Will the town need more police and fire fighters, more police cars, ambulances and firetrucks? A sudden increase of 7% in any town's school age population is cause for concern, but the fact that the added population might be Hasidic should be of no concern.
14
@R.F.
Two children?!!
Try 9-12 per family and 2-4 families in each house!
50
The scenario you describe is going to happen regardless of the cultural/religious affiliations of the families that move in, 2 school age children is relatively normal. If the town was worried about a massive population boom regardless of who it was than they should have stopped the development from ever starting. But it has started and now they’re trying to pick and choose who can live there, which is not how it works. As someone has said above, if you can afford to buy a home, then you get to live in it.
5
@R.F. Would these children even go to Chester public schools? I would think they would go to a yeshiva. On the other hand, I would be concerned about possible Hasidic "control" of the local school board, where they could implements funding cuts because their own kids don't go to those schools. The only way to counter that concern is for all eligible voters in Chester to vote in such elections, not to keep out new arrivals because they are Hasidic.
11
I don’t blame the town at all for fighting. This group is known to have 5+ kids, be poor and on Medicaid and other subsidized benefits. This influx is a huge financial strain on the town. More schools, roads and other infrastructure need to be built. So, taxes go up, and everyone else ends up paying. Enough already.
88
@elloo
This is their country, and they are legally here. Where do you propose they live?
10
@Jeff
If it's their country let them contribute to society instead of relying on the taxpayer to help raise their 5+ children and women who become dependents because their religious marriages are not recognized by the state. They pay little in taxes as well.
31
Unless you live in a tent in the woods and get your water from a stream, you live in on a plot of land where the developer had to clear some or all of the trees and build a house. I'll bet that the people who already lived in the town you now live in cried NIMBY, too. Twenty years ago in Lakewood and Jackson, NJ, developers clear cut acres of land to build 55+ only communities with hundreds of houses. The locals fought that, too, out of concern for the environment and fear that retirees would vote down the public school budgets (which they did). Now those same retirees are complaining about Hasidic Jews moving in. If you want to keep developers out, purchase the land yourself.
20
@Enough is enough
Amen right there. If you want the land buy it, if you don't, then you cant cry wolf when others do.
6
Religion poisons everything it touches, and the more fanatical the religion the more harmful the poison. This is just a law of human history, not a prejudice. And it's not an unwritten law, it was fully explored in writing in the late Christopher Hitchens' "god Is Not Great."
You cannot in the USA deny people their interests, thoughts, cults, or religions. But you can educate people about these things. It is a shame that there is prejudice involved because the case against supernatural-focused cultural institutions only requires reason.
32
If this means that the Satmars and other Ultra-Orthodox want to leave the modernity and cosmopolitan environment of Brooklyn and the rest of New York City, free from diversity, and other things that challenge their beliefs, so be it. But at the same time, they should not skirt their civic responsibility to pay taxes that provide for the common good.
55
@rdfabella
The Satmars of Brooklyn do not live in a modern, cosmopolitan, or diverse environment. They live in their own isolated area in Williamsburg, similarly the way they live in Kiryas Joel. They avoid contact with anyone not like them.
It should also be said that the Satmars of Williamsburg and Kiryas Joel are different from the Hasidim of Borough Park, Brooklyn, who are slightly more liberal and will do business and interact with the secular world.
21
@rdfabella
Please tell me who said they would not pay their share?
4
They don’t pay taxes because they don’t work and because they are a religion.
10
Frankly, I think everything should be done to spare most of us having to deal, daily, with ANY brand of fundamentalism, and extremism. They are entitled to their beliefs, but not entitled to push it in the faces of their neighbors. There IS freedom of religion, but there is ALSO freedom FROM religion.
77
@ChesBay
No one is making you observe their religion.
7
@EL If you are a neighbor near a Hasidic community you can't help but observe (see) them - even if they try to pretend that you do not exist, especially if you are a woman. This does not make for friendly neighborhoods. As for observing (practicing) their religion, no thanks. In my opinion it is based on ancient, outdated myths that have no place this day and age with the problems facing our planet today. They live in the past.
20
@EL---Uh, do you KNOW anything about Hasidem? Like the lady standing behind you in the line at the grocery store, who asks, "Have you found Jesus?" It's pretty hard to avoid daily observation. Thanks, I'll pass.
10
It is obvious author does not live in Orange County, or have ever resided there.
While some people have problems with construction because of the populous assumed to buy the property, that is NOT THE REAL PROBLEM! PEOPLE WHO AREN'T BIGOTS SUPPORT THE HASIDIM JEWISH POPULATION IN THE AREA, AND THEIR NEED FOR PROPER HOUSING.
These developments have displaced hundreds of different wildlife, forcing them in streets and residential areas. Deer are running into the highway. Snakes are making their ways into peoples homes because they're being displaced. The problem with this build is it is extremely inconsiderate to the fact that we as a whole have 18 months to save our environment.
If you want to build new homes, knock down ones that are abandoned and create new housing, because there is plenty of that in the county.
The Hasidim Jewish population deserves a proper place to raise their families, just like everyone else. A lot of Blooming Grove housing has been bought from other residents to house the overflow of people from Monroe. This is done all the time. WE do not NEED to build new housing, when we have perfectly good residential land readily available. This is not an issue of religion, but the abuse of the resources in the area.
25
Its time to re-examine religious tax exemptions. Especially with the heightened political environment surrounding religious and cultural issues. Everyone should pay their fair share regardless of their religion or lack there of.
95
@Joann
Where is the tax exemption you refer to in this article?
4
Hasidim, whose laws require them to live within a short walk of a synagogue, generally establish congregations in residences. These houses of worship have tax exemptions and parking benefits. Unfortunately, life-style requirements of very large families do impose significant burdens on neighbors.
40
@Le New Yorkais This is something that is a fault of local and state government failing to pass legislation to prevent this, not the fault of the beneficiaries. Call up your representative if you have a problem with it.
6
I doubt this is anti-Semitism - I think they're objecting to anti-fanatics. I bet they'd be just as opposed to a large group of Amish, or fundamentalist Muslims, or white supremists moving in. Hassidism is Jewish a fundamentalist supremacist cult built on in-group/out-group discrimination (against the locals, here). I imagine the vaccine crisis (even though mainstream Judaism is pro-vaccine) has some relevance here also. Cults are dangerous and, as C. Hitchens said rightly: "Religion poisons everything."
70
@David Anderson It is antisemitism, and the thought process has obviously infested around the county. While all people should be treated equal in regards to the law (there is a taxation problem and a vaccination problem), that doesn't make it right to openly discriminate against a group of people. That is a problem state legislation should address. This being said, if legislation was made to fix these problems, the population of Orange County who are not practice Hasidim would still find ways to degrade them. As a resident, it is rare to not hear openly antisemitic rhetoric from most people who live here.
8
@David Anderson If they objected to Muslims moving in there would be a nationwide uproar.
8
@Caitlin
Thank you. You have explained this so eloquently.
5
Our social nets (school funding, TANF, food stamps, public funding for community health centers, etc.) all rely on a basic adoption of the social contract for all involved if they are to be at all sustainable. That adoption implies responsible family planning, assimilation effort and shared basic values.
I would simply ask you this: does the community in question show a track record with an interest in responsible family planning, assimilation effort and shared basic values? Is this a community that is seeking to develop a shared future with current residents that values current residents and their hopes, dreams and values on the same plane as its self-identified religious priorities?
73
@Telecaster Why do you get to choose the number of kids other people have? Why do you get to choose people's values (code for religion)? My basic values include freedom of religion and freedom in general. I get the feeling yours don't.
17
I fully support religious and other freedoms that do not impose a great burden upon others. Uncontrolled population growth and increasing needs for public assistance wear out a rural town's welcome mat.
27
@Jo Because pretty soon we won't have a choice.
Either we control our own population or nature will do it for us.
Your choice to have a herd of children should not interfere with my choice to actually live on this planet and have a reasonable family size (replacement levels).
31
I feel for this community. It's a shame that folks don't assimilate. We deport the Hispanics who do assimilate and yet we allow religious groups to be self serving and not add anything positive to the communities that they live in.
64
@Heysus They pay property tax in Ramapo but don't use the public schools, leaving more resources for others that way. How is that not positive
12
@Jo They cost the school district more than they contribute as the district is responsible to share in bussing and special education costs. Did you read the article?
29
@Jo- Not true. The private Yeshivas use the school bus systems, the special education systems and other ancillary services of the Town/County/State/ Federal departments of education. "The yeshivas — like other non-public schools — get millions for pre-K programs, special-ed, food, child-care, security, technology and record-keeping on immunizations, attendance and state exams." (NY Post 1/19/19) One example, "The NYC Department of Education gave Jewish day schools $97 million for teachers, books and afternoon busing last fiscal year, the DOE told The Post. But that’s only a partial accounting of the largesse, officials acknowledged." (NY Post 1/19/19)
35
Religion in this country has gone from the margins to having out-sized influence in national, state and local politics. The concerns of residents are valid and while the Hasidim are the first to pull the fire alarm of antisemitism, frankly it has gotten boring because it is a lie.
51
@AusTex
Please explain how a town openly discriminating against a group of jews who have rightfully purchased land to construct housing is not anti semitic? I'd love to hear your answer.
8
Well, if that housing violates zoning laws and overwhelms the water and sewer system, what does religion have to do with it?
19
Why don’t you try listening to the complaints of the residents.
9
Not for anything but when the Hasid's came into the Five Towns on LI they stacked the school board and shifted state funds from the public schools to their own private Yeshiva's. It's a dirty secret that no one wants to talk about lest they be called anti Semitic. They've done this in upstate NY as well, they take state and federal money that is supposed to be used for public schools and funneled it into their own districts.
I highly doubt this comment gets published. Cuomo has known about this for years and does nothing for fear of losing votes.
Again I highly doubt this gets printed, but these are stone cold facts that no one has addressed.
182
@Jo Local school districts have to pay for private school busing, for special education services and for other services. And as Margo says it's not uncommon for Hasidim to take over local school boards and then gut public school education and funnel all funds to their private schools. Then, the question is: do they pay appropriate amount of taxes? In Kiryas Joel, most residents are on Medicare and Medicaid and receive federal vouchers for housing and are exempt from paying library taxes in some cases. Yet they purchase land, run businesses.
71
@Jo The median income for a household in the village was $15,138, and the median income for a family was $15,372. Males had a median income of $25,043 versus $16,364 for females. The per capita income for the village was $4,355. About 61.7% of families and 62.2% of the population were below the poverty line, including 63.9% of those under age 18 and 50.5% of those age 65 or over.
According to 2008 census figures, the village [Kiryas Joel] has the highest poverty rate in the nation, and the largest percentage of residents who receive food stamps. More than five-eighths of Kiryas Joel residents live below the federal poverty line and more than 40 percent receive food stamps, according to the American Community Survey, a U.S. Census Bureau study of every place in the country with 20,000 residents or more
25
@Jo those of us who don't have kids pay for public schools, too. It's for the good of the entire community.
11
I am curious about the issue of measles vaccines.
21
@MEG
There is a very serious outbreak of measles in the Hasidic communities in NYC, Rockland and Orange counties (just north of NYC). For whatever reason many in the Hasidic community have come to believe that the MMR vaccination is a health threat to their children and they are refusing to get their children vaccinated. The same thing is happening among the Ultra-Orthodox in Israel. An El-Al flight attendant just died recently from measles that it is believed she contracted on a flight from NY to Israel.
16
@Ken G
It would seem this would be a concern of the town.
6
@MEG
Uh yeah, if the unvaccinated would never travel outside of the town but they shop in malls; take buses, trains and airplanes and infect people who sometimes die because of the unvaccinated’s unscientific belief. Then it’s not a ‘town problem’ but world wide one.
10
I am a liberal Jew. I applaud the Town of Chester's efforts to save its community. I grew up in Rockland County, where the Chassidim turned the charming villages Monsey and Spring Valley into filthy shtetls, and they continue to spread further into Clarkstown and Ramapo.
118
I also grew up in Monsey, where lawns were mowed, parks were clean and stores were places we wanted to shop. I drove through Monsey recently, past the house I grew up in, and was appalled at how dilapidated and frankly, embarrassing my street now looked. The school boards, stocked with Hasidim control how money is spent though they do not send their own children to the public schools they hold sway over. They have gutted after school programs, sports etc...and left public-school attending children out in the cold.
The irony is, I now live in Monmouth County NJ and Lakewood is Monsey South. Like Monsey and Spring Valley, Lakewood is bursting at the seams and expanding into Jackson, Toms River and to the north, Long Branch. Like Rockland, quality of life for non-Hasidic has plummeted in these towns.
I get it, people need to live somewhere. But, until there is a partnership and by that I mean, pay taxes, contribute, be part of the community and take pride in where you live, these blocking efforts by these towns will continue, and they should. Here here for them.
43
The main concern is that with Kiryas Joel, the entire town is designated “tax exempt” for religious purposes and so is supported entirely by the state. The majority of residents are on social services and do not contribute. This is the same with Jehovah Witness communities in Warwick and Fishkill/Beacon. It is not “religious discrimination” per se, it is discrimination against groups who want to live tax-free on the public dole. This information is sorely lacking in your investigative report.
212
@Sara
Whatever happened to separation of church and state?? Again taxpayers bear the brunt of these religious groups. Time to tax every and ALL religions.
72
@Sara Indeed:
"The median income for a household in the village [of Kiryas Joel] was $15,138, and the median income for a family was $15,372. Males had a median income of $25,043 versus $16,364 for females. The per capita income for the village was $4,355. About 61.7% of families and 62.2% of the population were below the poverty line, including 63.9% of those under age 18 and 50.5% of those age 65 or over.
According to 2008 census figures, the village has the highest poverty rate in the nation, and the largest percentage of residents who receive food stamps. More than five-eighths of Kiryas Joel residents live below the federal poverty line and more than 40 percent receive food stamps, according to the American Community Survey, a U.S. Census Bureau study of every place in the country with 20,000 residents or more"
24
@Margo Channing
You could not be any more wrong. No taxpayer funds are supporting any religious buildings, functions, or property. By the way, did you complain when your federal government paid for the national Christmas tree on the White House lawn? Every year.....
5
This alarming piece shows it's a perfectly awful storm when nimbyism joins forces with anti-semitism.
What's next: an internal visa system to make sure people stay where others think they belong?
14
@Alan Coogan
Alan, believe me.This is not about nimbyism or anti-semitism. The people in Chester are not against development. They ARE concerned with the type of development and rightly so. They have seen what uncontrolled development did to their fellow Orange County citizens just a short ride down route 17 and want no part of that and they can’t be blamed for that. As for anti-semitism, take a look at some of the comments here and you’ll find more than one commenter who self identifies as a Jew and is in SUPPORT of the citizens of Chester. Unless you’re from the lower Hudson valley, it’s easy to misunderstand the dynamic that’s at work here. The Hasidim are culturally rooted in 18th century Eastern European Jewish mysticism. They are adamantly opposed to any sort of assimilation. Those of them that do assimilate are shunned. They have very little to no interest in becoming good citizens of the of Town Chester, the State of New York or the United States. They answer to a different law. This is not just a problem in the lower Hudson Valley. This same dynamic is going on as I type in Israel.
20
People can follow whatever religion they choose.
But they cannot have endless number of children in this day and age with a dying planet and terrible overpopulation. Sorry.
They also cannot expect others to subsidize them in the form of social services and welfare. it is not not fair. And I am not an anti Semite, it's not a religious question.
81
I am stunned that the lede in this story is not the blatant anti-Semitism the local populace so casually espouses. What other community could be discriminated against so openly? Were the subject any other religious or ethnic group the bigotry and hate that is evident would be called exactly that.
18
@Ted
There are lots of communities that I wouldn't want to move in to my town and take over, such as Scientologists, "Fundamentalist" polygamous Mormons, David Koresh, Rajneeshpuram, etc.
Anyone can create a new religion or an offshoot of an old one. But when they take over the town, ignore the laws, and ignore anyone outside their sect, it's not anti-Semitism to say you don't want them here. They're using sham religion to loot the public treasury and exclude the original inhabitants.
26
The author should explain the statement that Kiryas Joel is among the poorest of communities. It seems incomprehensible.
Second, America is on such a death trip that the burgeoning birth rate of people like the Satmar, and for that matter the Amish and Old Order Mennonites, appear to some like a menace. It shouldn’t. The large family is normal life, and life as it was lived prior to our post-modern epoch. I say “normal” because, believe it or not, fertility is normal, as anyone who lives with nature knows. Not everyone in America is seeking self-extinction.
I acknowledge that local communities have the right to decide their own fate and the type of development that is being proposed. For example, developers can be made to contribute toward the cost of new schools, roads and infrastructure.
But if the worry is about being outvoted in the future by the newcomers, then perhaps the non-Samar community should begin having more children of their own. Otherwise, their sterility is not much of an argument against growth, unless the entire town is zoned as a senior citizen enclave, which, if true, would itself be quite a sardonic comment on America’s future.
9
@Michael Hoffman Why does it seem incomprehensible that Kiera’s Joel is one of the poorest communities in the country?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lowest-income_places_in_the_United_States
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-village-with-the-numbers-not-the-image-of-the-poorest-place.html
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/110642/child-poverty-on-rise-kiryas-joel-one-of-the-poorest-in-america.html
37
@Michael Hoffman
https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/21/nyregion/kiryas-joel-a-village-with-the-numbers-not-the-image-of-the-poorest-place.html
10
@Michael Hoffman
"The author should explain the statement that Kiryas Joel is among the poorest of communities. It seems incomprehensible."
similar to, say, Bed-Stuy, or the south side of Chicago ?
Or, as Trump would say, Baltimore ?
2
Section 8 housing vouchers? Better check with Mr. Cuccinelli and determine if these residents can "stand on their own feet"
32
They are citizens no immigrants.
4
The town should insist on an aggressive affirmative marketing plan with specific goals to make sure the residents of the new subdivision represents all the ethnic groups in the greater area.
When one group segregates itself from the greater population, one should expect resentment and reverse discrimination.
141
@carl
Just who is trying to segregate here? I understand the premise of your argument, however, reverse it and see the townspeople are doing exactly the same thing.
3
@carl It will never happen.
2
Whether this development should go forward or not, and whether or not large Hasidic development is harmful to communities, the town fathers’ language is bigoted. I am dismayed to see similar language throughout this comment section.
20
Both New York and New Jersey need to eliminate funding for busing for private schools and private special education. That would elevate some of the tension. Parents should have every right to send their children to private schools but it shouldn't be tax payer funded unless they meet state education requirements which the Hasidim do not.
91
Alleviate. But okay.
4
The last time that the Hasidim were in this paper was this past winter/spring when there was an outbreak of measles.
The Hasidim do not believe in the use of vaccines.
Or birth control.
Or abortion.
Or reporting sexual abuse.
Or reporting much of any crime.
This is a closed society.
It is fundamentalist and insular.
In every family the girls are treated 'differently' from the boys.
Within the larger society, that means that even the educational demands are not the same.
I would not be interested (if I were young) in raising my family where half of all children (the boys) are in training (from birth) to grow up to be a rabbi. Or minister. Or priest. Or iman. Or shaman.
All "planned societies" are "unnatural", but religious societies are unnaturally so, across the entire sociological board.
We are a nation in crisis - and this small town is just one example of why.
97
@rosa
You are conflating the bad actors in the community with the whole community.
The majority of the Hasidic community believes in reporting sexual abuse, believes in vaccines, believes in sending their kids to work.
The non Hasidic communities also have a ways to go before treating girls equally.
As for birth control and abortion, there are plenty of non Hasidic communities that have similar views.
Being anti-religion is against the foundation of the USA.
12
@Jo I don't know if you are just uninformed on the topic or are part of the community, but while I can't speak to what is done inside the families, I know the schools teach boys and girls differently. Boys are schooled to become Rabbis and the classes they take do not resemble anything taught at public or standard private schools. The girls are taught to be housewives.
Yes, most communities could use a push toward gender equality, but the difference is NOTHING compared to Chassidic Judaism. The young people who break freak from the religion and choose a secular lifestyle find themselves years behind others even after graduating from Chassidic high schools. They often don't qualify for the most basic remedial community college classes and spend years trying to catch up to their peers.
34
hey Jo
The bad actors in their society seem to be throwing a lot more weight around re: reporting sexual abuse, vaccines, modernizing the schools, equal treatment for girls and boys.
Throwing a “what about our society in general” stinkbomb does nothing when we’re examining the issues endemic to religious fundamentalism
13
How does a closed "Hasidic enclave" behave in other places?
It is reasonable to ask, to look, and to object.
23
I live close to the areas affected by this. I moved out of NYC to be nearer to nature. The clear cutting of forests in the Hudson Valley, done to accommodate thousands (not mere hundreds) of oversized families, too many of whom are on welfare, and poorly educated and segregationist, is turning a rural area into an urban nightmarescape practically overnight. Also, with the voting bloc, the destruction of good school districts usually follows (google East Ramapo school district). They vote to divert funds from public schools to their private religious schools where their children are taught Yiddish and religion primarily. Boys are expected to grow up and do nothing but study Torah and marry as soon as possible. Girls are the workhorses whose function is mainly to work until they start having babies, one after another. Then they can't work and have to collect welfare. How is any of this even Constitutional?
108
@MB
Diverting funds from public schools to private religious schools...hmmm...if that's legal, then it's up to YOUR legislators to fix. If the building codes allow clear cutting, it's up to YOUR legislators to fix. The complaining blather about expected gender roles among a particular religious group could be said about many other groups - if that's so egregious to you, then send a contribution to one of the organizations advocating for gender equity. And remember that none of this whining constitutes a legally sound objection to the project.
5
@catlogic
You can't get your legislators to fix it if the religious group in question is block voting. That's part of the problem.
23
Interesting that the article mentions Joseph Landau as one of the partners. In 2005 I moved to a loft building in Bed Stuy, Brooklyn. It was located in a predominately African American and Hispanic community on a quiet tree lined street. The loft buildings in the neighborhood were home to artists, musicians and creative people. It was an open and welcoming community to everyone.
A few years later the Hasidic community began to aggressively buy property to build large apartment building. None of this housing was EVER available to anyone but Hasidic people. During the recession they tried to force people to sell their townhouse. They stood in front of people's homes in the evenings praying that they would lose their homes to the recession.
The Hasidic community voted as a block and gerrymandered the district so that we found ourselves in a new district as part of Brooklyn Heights and Williamsburg, both of which are miles away.
And then Mr Landau opened Chestnut supermarket in the ground floor of our apartment building and rented a warehouse down the street to store product. What had been a wonderfully quiet street turned into complete chaos with fully loaded forklifts driving full speed up and down the sidewalks carrying product from the warehouse to the store. Uboats rattled on the sidewalks until midnight as workers carted more product to and fro. Our lives became a never ending series of 311 complaints to the city.
Last year I left the neighborhood for good.
98
@Katye Holland
I'll give you a guess as to why not one politician does anything about this. See Sheldon Silver he protected these people and so does every other pol who does nothing.
54
@Margo Channing
The republican party does this all the time federally. Do you have a problem with their gerrymandering, Margo?
7
Point of information/clarification requested: That's a proposed large number of people moving into a small community. What businesses or work opportunities support such an increase?
How do all these proposed new residents make a living?
25
@LRM
They drive a few miles to where they already work?
1
@LRM
For the most part, the men don't work. They are perpetual "students" and their large families receive social services to support them. The boys leave the schools at best semi-literate, as they spend most of the time studying religious subjects, and almost none studying secular subjects. They forbid the use of computers and the internet.
To answer your final question, they don't.
42
@LRM If Kira’s Joel will serve as a model, many of the men will study for years to become rabbis. Women may hold jobs. But KJ is one of the poorest areas of the country. Many are on welfare.
Some may take a bus to NYC to work in places like 47th Street photo or the diamond district,
17
North America was colonized by religious congregations that sought to insulate themselves from others while simultaneously taking the land and resources away from the indigenous inhabitants. It led to centuries of war and conflict, ultimately leading to legally binding treaty agreements between the colonizer states and the indigenous nations.
Let the Hasidic communities have their own municipalities and run their own affairs on their own lands. The Mormons have been able to do so and have established an entire US state built around the interests of their communities.
The surrounding communities who are in effect the indigenous inhabitants now are well advised to enter into long term compacts with the Hasidic communities regarding how they will share the natural resources and infrastructure. This is required because the religious communities allow little to no voice for outsiders to have a say in their affairs, yet the religious communities will take advantage of every opening available to them to have a voice in the affairs of the surrounding communities. I would advise setting up separate municipalities, villages, towns, etc.
20
I understand the concerns, but this is discrimination, and the way to solve it is not to dictate by race who can build what but to take away the special privileges New York grants these Chassidic enclaves. For example, we should definitely act to prevent funneling money out of the public school system. But we always have to act in a way that doesn't encourage discrimination.
22
@David Weintraub
This is well put, but there's a history here from Rockland County, NY, where the orthodox essentially used the school board to steal public money from the public schools and funnel it to their own schools by misrepresenting their students as special ed. There is a documentary about this in which the new Hasidic head of the school board is on tape saying "why should we compromise, if we have all the power?" Black and Latino students were unable to graduate from the school that their parents pay taxes to support because of lack of courses. Anti-discrimination laws are meant to protect individuals from mistreatment by the larger group. They're not designed to deal with a large, organized group that consciously and intentionally takes over a small town. Cuomo and his friends are complicit here, since they allow and encourage these takeovers in Long Island and Rockland.
71
The concerns of the residents of Chester did not arise in a vacuum. Local history proves that this housing development has a considerable chance to be problematic.
From 2001 - 2013, I lived in Airmont, NY, a small village within the larger Ramapo area. Over about a decade, Hasidim ran for and won seats on the local school board, until they held every seat, and thus controlled the budget -- which, since their children attend private Yeshivas, they gutted so severely that course offerings were reduced, and many public high school students needed 5 or 6 years to fulfill their graduation requirements.
One critical fact: community opposition to their actions is NOT rooted in antisemitism (plenty of non-Orthodox Jews opposed them and sided with the community at large). It stems from the belief that public funds are meant to serve the public weal, not to be diverted towards private use. A sustained effort to defund a right as as basic as public education will not win anyone a lot of support.
I could not, in 1500 characters, explain the complexities of what occurred there in the decade-plus of my residency, but for anyone who's interested, here is a link to a well-researched and comprehensive article:
http://nymag.com/news/features/east-ramapo-hasidim-2013-4/
257
@D Price Yup. That is where I grew up, having attending Ramapo High School, and junior high and elementary schools in this area in the 1960s and 1970s. It shifted even in the 1970s when the ultra orthodox took over the school boards and budget. We felt it. And, yes, most of us are/were Jewish as well.
32
@Zevy
Why SHOULD we support religious schools with tax dollars? Most people understand that public schools are there for the taking, existing as a "public good," and if you want to enroll your children in a religious school, tuition is your responsibility.
46
@D Price Honestly, so many problems would be solved if we got rid of tax exemptions for all religious groups.
19
This article tells half the story. This is in no way anti-semitism. Next door to Chester, the Town of Monroe has struggled for years with the problems caused by having a large, ever expanding religious community within its borders ( Kyras Joel). To say it represents a clash of values and aspirations is an understatement. Residents of KJ wanted high density housing, had no use for the public schools putting them at odds with their neighbors. The residents of KJ voted as a bloc to elect candidates to the Town board as well as for county and state offices who would serve their interests which were very often at odds with the rest of the Town. Now we have some Hasidic developers using the states outdated village formation laws to create new villages within towns so they can create their own zoning laws. These villages are not self-sustaining and put a tremendous strain on water, sewer, roads AND social services. Perhaps the Times can look into that?
188
@MD Monroe: The people who live in the Hasidic enclave pay the same taxes are everyone else. They do not, therefore get a free ride. In fact if they are running their own schools, the public schools are getting tax money without having to school those children. Face it your objections are not economic but based on bigotry.
6
@Jeff actually they do not pay the same taxes. People who are not from the NYC area really have no business even commenting on this story because you have no context or understanding of the history around these issues here. People in the Hasidic enclave generally do not work. The men study to be rabbis at the yeshiva and the women produce a child every year. They are on medicaid and rely on every form of public assistance at the expense of the surrounding communities. They hold large voting blocks that has led to their ability to exploit every legal loophole to sustain their lifestyle at public expense.
76
@Jeff There is a high rate of poverty within these communities. So, taxes paid are low. Here in NY, residents can claim a property tax exemption for religious use, so many of these residents don’t pay any or much property tax.
NYS gives a large amount of aid to private schools — busing, textbooks, nurses’ salaries, money for record keeping— such as maintaining vaccination records.
The public school districts with large Hassidic populations are being decimated by these costs and by decisions that are made against the interests of public school students. These districts are, in essence, paying for two separate school systems.
52
Someone please explain to me, how, if the expected owners belong to the "poorest community in the nation", they are going to be able to afford $500,000 homes?
Who is footing this bill on the side?
177
Will the homes be sold, or rented to families by wealthy landlords?
29
@rosa
That is one of the concerns, that these houses, instead of being bought by a family as a single family house, will end up occupied by multiple families using section 8 housing vouchers and the like, where you end up with 4 or 5 families living in a single family home, which violates rules on how much square footage each person should have in a house; the other issue is the property tax bill on a house is based in part on the assumption that it reflects a single family with kids. If a house has multiple families with a lot of kids, the property taxes the house is billed will pay only a tiny fraction of the education costs. People have argued that Hasidim use their own schools, but it also leaves out that the local school budget pays for things like busing, special ed (which tends for whatever reasons to be high among the hasidic community, perhaps because of the size of the child population), books in some cases, health services, so they represent an economic challenge to the school funding.
The issue isn't all that far removed from the issue of "Stacking", where in towns with big, older houses, the people owning them were renting them illegally to illegal immigrant workers, where you would have in a house designed for a single family, 20 or 30 people living there. Eventually it became families who were being 'stacked up', and the schools faced an influx of new kids,often needing special services, and it strained budgets.
115
@Practicalities
Yup.
But Section 8 doesn't pay a $4,000 a month bank loan.
Who's paying the water/sewer bill?
Landscaping?
Electric?
Fire insurance?
City taxes?
Heat?
Not to mention food, clothing or buying furniture.
There's something kerflurry here.
50
The last time I drove through the Hudson Valley, the roads and infrastructure were starting to look like a 3rd world country.
Upstate NY has a lot of beautiful geography and a lot of run down areas- it is clear than industry has left and there isn't a lot going on
They might welcome some economic development
2
@Hugh G
Respectfully, and as a resident and unreconstructed cheerleader for the Hudson Valley, I’d invite you to come back and take another look. You are correct that there’s amazing topography and natural beauty, and though you’re also correct there are some run down areas, many of them are making a comeback thanks to SMART and targeted economic development, as well as smart environmental conservation. The Greens at Chester offends both of those imperatives. The sort of development taken on by the KJ community has been largely reckless and counterproductive, and occasionally illegal. Our concern about the Greens at Chester has always been that it represents many of the same mistakes of the development of KJ, and we intend not to repeat them. We love everybody who wants to homestead here, but we all have to play by the same rules. So while you’re correct that many of our communities could benefit from someone economic development, it has to be the smart kind, not destructive and reckless.
44
Chasidim don’t bring economic development. They bring more economic stress.
10
The real problem here is non-existent or weak or poorly written zoning laws in Chester. Comprehensive, detailed, well-written zoning laws could have obviated the whole issue of perceived discrimination and could have shut this project down before anyone took a shovel to dirt. But now it may be too late, depending on how the court rules.
16
It is sad to see those beautiful green hills denuded for more ugly housing. Our planet cannot sustain a human population that has 5 children (or more) per family. The IRS should limit the dependent deduction to 2 per married couple or single taxpayer. Why should those of us who try to live in an economically self-sustaining and environmentally responsible way be subsidizing this?
128
@MMD
The problem is that any such disincentive can end up punishing children. For environmental reasons, I would be very happy if we could figure out a way to stabilize or reduce the human population, but children raised in poverty and hunger find it much harder to concentrate in school, and generally they will struggle more in life. Taxpayers shelling out to help children is really an investment to help the children become good members of society (and taxpayers themselves) later.
3
Well.
First, thank you, Sharon Otterman. Short and clear, and many facts.
431 houses.
The infrastructure involves water, soil (expansion/contraction), roads, sewers, electricity, sidewalks, etc.
The school system already has: 993 students.
The new amount is expected to be between 1,720 to 2, 580.
That will be a doubling or tripling of the student body.
Question: Are one, two or three new schools being considered? How many new teachers will be hired?
What will the "new" curriculum be? New books? Playground equipment?
Yes, I understand that Hasidic Jews have a "different" school system, but why do I think that the local school will not be used?
Since the Hasidic refuse to follow "local standards" on education then will the resident students be bused elsewhere or will the Hasidic conform to regular classroom dictates?
And, as for the mother who wishes to have fresh air and sunshine for her 9 children, yes, that is a desirable goal.
No one disputes that.
But this is the United States of America. There is separation of church and state.
I, an atheist, should not have to concern myself with whether a town is to be taken over by a religious sect, just as I should not have to know that any elected official is of another religion.
Why would I even care?
Will this all be worked out?
I don't think so.
Religion is hierarchical.
And we Americans are natural-born equalitists.
Will the Hasidic win the battle?
Yes, of course.
But, it will not win the war.
Keep following this.
67
@rosa Wow this might be the most beautifully written comment I have every seen on the NYT. Thank you Rosa.
5
@rosa i don't think the "separation of church and state" means you can discriminate against your neighbors based on their religion. but then, i didn't take civics in the american school system, so what do i know?
1
There’s no way that “anyone” will be able to buy these homes if they’re only marketed in Yiddish by certain realtors who will never return a call from an English speaker. I wouldn’t trust the developers as far as I could throw them.
Look what happened in Ramapo. If I lived in Chester, there would be no way I would want the same for my community.
174
@Practicalities
This is 100% correct.
27
If the Developer complies with the zoning laws, the developer can develop. Many of the comments are just plain aniti and the group in this case is the Hasidim;a different time a different group.
9
@WF you’re right. And what’s good do one group should also apply for the others. The Hasidic realtors somehow manage to avoid selling/renting their properties to non-Hasidic people despite the anti-discrimination laws in theism country. Yet I never hear about any lawsuits for this illegal practice. Time to start opening up communities for everyone regardless of religion or background.
12
this is an interesting story. There was a group of Hasidic Jews who moved into a small village in Guatemala. That Village got rid of them. They weren’t paying their bills, they tried to get the indiginous women to have more children, which they could not afford, it was a very tense situation. Good luck. it was covered on NPR, I was very proud of those villagers. The culture of the villages is really important.
76
@Vw
Would you say the same thing if people from Guatemala or Syria were moving to the Hudson Valley ?
8
Is one of the developers the same Joel Landau that secretly sold the former Rivington House in Greenwich Village to a private developer for a condo? Probably.
29
The article states: "Mr. Fried, 91, recalled in an interview how for 28 years, he fought off “not in my backyard” concerns about overdevelopment from Chester residents."
Mr. Fried faced 28 years of fierce opposition to his plans for overdevelopment by the residents of Chester, NY.
There are many valid reasons for NIMBY.
The new owners/developers have upped the ante and are facing more fierce opposition. Who is surprised?
When a project is so huge as to radically impact the status quo of the existing community, there are a multitude of valid reasons to oppose the project. When one adds to that equation the prospect of the Hasidic community being the target owners of the housing, the concerns multiply for good reasons, most of which have been mentioned either in the article or in the comments already made as I write. Increase in property taxes, stress on services from overpopulation (density), Hasidim voting as a bloc, insulation of the Hasidic community from the existing community, potential violation of building codes and occupancy codes, lawsuits...
Hasidic communities have a history, whether in Brooklyn or Kiryas Joel, that is not simply based on stereotype and the bias of the non-Hasidim.
What would King Solomon do?
26
Despicable and discriminatory. Whatever group of "those people" the residents happen to want to keep away from "our kind," the motivation and the tactics are the same.
20
Hey folks, here's a quick reminder: we live in the USA. Housing discrimination is illegal. Just because our current president was sued for this and got elected anyway, that doesn't make it okay.
28
@Dee S
Housing discrimination implies that housing exists! A community has the legal right to determine what can be built within their jurisdiction. Once built you cannot discriminate, but until then the community has a right to determine what gets built and where.
29
@Dee S
Okay.
So you tell me, how it is that "the poorest community in the nation" can afford to buy $500,000 homes?
There's a few millions of homeless in this country who would like to know the answer to THAT trick!
21
@rosa
3-5 families per house. Rented via Section 8 housing vouchers (i.e. taxpayer money) and the math works quite wonderfully for the developer/ owner.
It's a large, well planned scam against the communities in which they are located and the state and national taxpayers who heavily subsidize the rents.
31
These developers are decimating the Hudson valley and it's resources with any regard for the communities. It's all about collision, bribes, and cronies
55
Here’s the thing : we wanted to buy a home there for one of our children. We were told “no, you cannot buy here, this is for our community only (Hasidim). Where else in America is this ok? Imagine the uproar over a “WASP- only” community (or indeed any other group using only racial identifiers. ) That’s the real issue. Oh and also - as someone else mentioned- look at East Ramapo and what happened. THAT’S why nobody wants this development - locals know what will happen, and they also disagree with not being permitted to live in this new community.
184
@Susi G Sounds like a % of the housing must be allocated for other people. Diversity should be enforced. And they should be prosecuted if any such statements are ever uttered.
11
It seems to me that one problem is the way we fund public schools. There needs to be a better system, a form of local progressive income tax rather than property-tax-based. I wonder if any tax specialists can weigh in on this issue, which exists in large cities like NYC as well as in small towns.
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@MFC
The property tax based schools has hit everyone hard, from big city to small towns. 75% of most property tax bills are for schools. The problem is that this puts the burden on one group of people, homeowners, and this is behind issues with, for example, building relatively high density rental housing in suburban areas, where the property taxes a rental building owner pays don't match up with the number of kids such buildings likely will produce who will enter the school system, and house owners end up paying the bill. Likewise, in city areas like Newark, they don't have the tax base to pay for the schools. Meanwhile, people in more well off areas end up paying through the nose in property taxes, it is no coincidence that the top school districtis in NY and NJ have very high property taxes, even on modest homes.
The problem is that towns want 'local control of schools', it would make more sense to fund schools through income taxes that are paid by everyone and property taxes only pay for local services, so in NJ you have 600+ school districts and people complain about ridiculously high property taxes that come with that.
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High volume of new residents without local resources available to cover the cost is deeply unfair. Seems more disclosure and limits need to be put in place.
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Sounds like Chester had weak zoning ordinances that failed to restrict development that was out of scale with a small rural town.
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This article serves the purpose of further dividing our country into groups....the groups we want to live near and the groups we don't want to live near.
I think the biggest problem facing the religious community at large is the tax issue. Why are churches, of any kind, exempt from paying taxes?? I don't believe it is a question of poverty on the part of the institutions. Perhaps congress should take on the issue of churches, colleges, hospitals and any other places that are not expected to pay tax money on their holdings. Seems to me this is an important issue. I believe this would also serve to allay the problems that many cities face as far as their tax base is concerned.
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@joyce
Why are ANY religions exempt from taxes? Tax them all.
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@joyce Disagree, perhaps you should read the article. The author accurately describes the multi-faceted problems facing a community, tax collection only one of many unresolved issues. It is not based on conjecture, rumor or superstition but evidence gathered from other similar fundamentalist enclaves located in the region.
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Anywhere lots of couples have nine kids is not a place I'd like to live.
The thing you can say about ultra-Orthodox kids is that they are well behaved and hold one another's hands as they quietly cross busy intersections, and their mothers dress them all alike, which is kind of cute -- a good way to keep track of them from afar in parks and on streets. As children go, these are pleasanter than others I've come across.
Still, nine? And too often subsidized? And too often in need of special school services? I can understand why municipalities might blanch at the thought of many such families moving in.
No matter creed or color.
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@B. Back in the 50's there were plenty of large families living all over the US, they were called "Irish Catholics"
That didn't last more than one or two generations.
As long as they pay taxes and more importantly pay your SS benefits when you retire, what is wrong with a big family? It is very difficult in the US to get economic growth without population growth.
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@Hugh G
The WHOLE POINT is they are NOT taxpayers on net. They are tax consumers.
That is the problem in a nutshell.
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@Hugh G. Not sure the comparison with large Irish Catholic families is appropriate. Everyone in my father and grandfather's large Catholic family was a contributing taxpayer, and most of the men enlisted in the military (my father and his brothers were all Marines). They all received comprehensive educations, where through Catholic Schools or public. My husband's entire Catholic School education through undergraduate included science, math, etc, far beyond learning Catholic doctrine and attendance to Mass; he was well-prepared to earn a living and interact with the world. As I have understood it (and I could be misinformed), Hasidic communities do not integrate into the larger community but seek to wall themselves off and exempt themselves from civic responsibilities that promote general welfare. Further, I have read they do not provide comprehensive education for their children, but instead a primarily religious education which renders them without basic skills to earn a living as young adults. I have understood that even in Israel there is great resentment among the general public that Hasidic young adults are largely not required to participate in the same military service that other Israelis citizens are, and are users of the public dole rather than active contributors to it.
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The problem here is a matter of trust and also wariness from experience. When you have new housing built in a town that has the potential to increase radically the number of school age kids, this puts a strain on the schools and because they don't have a big tax base, means property taxes soaring, a lot of towns don't want large density housing for that reason (along with less savory ones, that high density= housing projects with large minority populations).
With the Hasidim, even though they don't use the public schools, they do pose a burden because they tend to have large families and under the law require some services from the town, with things like busing, special ed costs, books and the like), and it can be costly, it has happened in other areas where ultra orthodox Jews have settled.
The other issue is trust, and again, experience in towns like Lakewood in NJ, and Ramapo, NY cause concern. In those towns, Hasidim basically took over the school board, and slashed school taxes, arguing their kids didn't use the public schools and basically why should they pay for other kids? Meanwhile, in Ramapo and Lakewood, the school budget was paying for the services mentioned, and it left the public schools starved for funds, and this is well documented, not to mention that hasidic groups have also been cited with for example selling off a public school as unneeded to a hasidic group at prices well below market value.
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As an immigrant to this country from a non-western country, who was raised in a different religion from Christianity, I sympathize with the citizens of this town and their fears. When I came to the U.S. with my family, we did not keep ourselves apart from the community and demand special treatment because of our customs/religion. We assimilated and became a part of the town (and country) we lived in. The Hasidim do not. And that is a problem with any community that does not integrate themselves here.
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@L
So basically people should assimilate and part ways with their culture and religion? Basically people should only have a specific culture or religion so long as that culture or religion isn't too different? Is this what you are saying?
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@EL
You are just creating a caricature of @L’s comment to make them easier to attack.
Nobody is arguing that a community should have to abandon their culture & customs.
But they should also not create an insular sub-community which acts in coordinated manner to siphon off public resources from others.
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@EL
Basically, yes. There's a lot of middle ground between "parting ways with your religion" and establishing your own separate cultish community within ours. The latter is not welcome and shouldn't be.
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A few years ago, there was a radio episode of "This American Life" called "A Not-so-Simple Majority", which tells the story of a small town, East Ramapo, New York, where the Hasidic gained majority and essentially took over the school board (in a district where there children didn't attend the school), and then began a contentious power struggle with the non-Hasidic residents over school funding, etc. Quite a striking story about the power of electoral majorities.
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They're concerned about a Hasidic/Orthodox majority in their small town, gradually gaining control governing the future of a school system they'd never send their own kids to.
Once the Hasidic majority took control in East Ramapo, they restricted the budget, and reining in property taxes became a preoccupation. The school board determines the property tax levy when it sets its budget. Controlling taxes meant trimming corners off the budget, dropping extracurriculars, sports teams, cutting music teachers.
In NY, these suburban school district budgets go up for a public vote. As the Hasids numbers increase, there can be enough of them that they could conceivably go to the polls and vote down the school budget, and force cuts.
Also high on the priorities list for the new Hasidic majority was reining in property taxes. And with the levers of power now in its possession, it launched what's pretty much been a systematic defunding of the East Ramapo public schools."
Here's a partial list from the last 5 years. All deans, all social workers eliminated. All assistant principals at the elementary school level, music instruction for elementary school kids, funding for field trip buses, all eliminated, with cuts to administration, guidance counselors, teaching assistants, maintenance, assistant principals, among lots of others. Kindergarten was reduced from full-day to half-day. System-wide over the last 6 years, the district's laid off 22% of all its teachers.
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Developers lie. Period. They submit phony plans to please various demands, make tons of promises, spread around manila envelopes stuffed with cash and as soon as they get their permit, they immediately switch to their real intentions.
They violate the terms of agreements, "interpret" clauses in the most contorted way (with the help of semantic lawyers), and they inevitably claim that the "changed financial environments" forces them to make changes to keep the project viable.
Does anyone remember the giant scam called Atlantic Yard?
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There seems to be a fear of the Hasidim. I lived in Spring Valley, NY, which is close to New Square and Monsey which are both Hasidic Communities. Riding the bus to Manhattan, I found that the non-Hasidim were rude and cold. I moved to the back of the bus where the Hasidim were and they accepted me 100%. They taught me Yiddish which I can speak and understand 50 years later. I am not Jewish, I am simply nothing more than an East Tennessee Mountain man. I enjoyed them. I found them to have a great sense of humor and that is what I needed at 7AM
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@Bill Dooley I am glad you found the Hasidic accepting you and enjoyable people at 7AM. But look at what happened at East Ramapo and you should be concerned what they did to the school system they do not attend but ruined for the other non-Hasidic students/people by voting for defunding, also reducing property taxes that help them but ruins a lot of services for the others. They clearly follow their self-interest at the expense of all others. That is also a form of being "anti-'"
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@Bill Dooley
Yes, because you are a man. If you were a woman it would be a different story. This fact is kind of neither here nor there on the topic of Hasidic town takeover, but it's pretty ugly on its own.
I've had excellent relations with Hasidic men (I'm non-religious) and find them easy to talk to and accepting. But I'm male, which "helps."
Fraught issue. No, approvals shouldn't be based on what community you belong to (or skin color, etc.) OTOH, the risks look real. I don't know how I'd feel if I were an existing resident.
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@Bill Dooley No one is saying Hasidim are not nice people. Individually, they are lovely (or terrible, like everyone). The issue is that as a community they put enormous pressure on local resources, whether on schools, government benefits, public services, etc. The fear is not based on smoke, but on real life examples in that area. In one community, the Hasidim voted as a block to elect themselves onto the public school board, then drained all the resources out of the district to the private religious schools only their children attended.
Israel has a similar problem between Hasids and the more secular Jews, because there Hasids pay little to no taxes yet take enormous chunks of government services. They vote as a bloc to keep the conservative government in power, who cater to them. Bibi is their cat's paw. You can see the political ramifications for a small bedroom community in New York when they witness such dynamics.
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The prospect of high density fanatic evangelical Christians (or Muslims) (or Hindus) (or sunworshippers) would provoke much the same response among most secular communities.
You can't blame local residents for fearing the consequences of block voting and the costs, particularly given the ease of obtaining religious tax exemptions.
It's not as if there's no experience with dense monolithic communities in this area.
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@jrd The remedy is to learn to live with the new neighbors or leave. If they are resorting to discrimination, which seems obvious from the article quotes, I can blame them.
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@Erica The new neighbors should learn to live with the community they decided to move to, not the other way around
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@jrd
Perhaps the ease with which religious tax exemptions can be obtained should be reviewed, and tightened.
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It is a terrible challenge to a community when a group of people want to move into a community but not integrate with it. Tripling the number of school-age children in a community without tripling the tax base means making others pay for your needs. There needs to be some way to address and resolve these issues other than zoning, permitting and litigation. Perhaps the state government can find ways to help.
Kiryat Joel may be the worst example because of the poverty, but it is far from unique. I have observed much of Teaneck, NJ, blighted by Haredim buying in in large numbers and becoming a political and economic obstacle, smothering everything others in the community want to do.
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@Gene S Exactly. I've read the news stories about the Lakewood, NJ area. No thanks.
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@Gene S
Using the word 'blighted' and 'Haredim' side by side isn't a good look. Imagine someone saying there community has been blighted by black people buying in large numbers.
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@EL
Correlation does not equal causation, but if you look at the timelines of problems as Hasidim moved into NY and NJ towns, the relationship is clearly causal.
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While I agree that there could be many potential issues to Hasidics moving in to a town, I’m frightened at some of the comments and the article that treats them as only a threat. They are people too and deserve a place to live. I don’t think there would be an article written about another minority group like this and that scares me as an excuse to single them out. I don’t think this is anti-Semitic at all (the article or the town’s not wanting Hasidics), but we must be careful in how we articulate these sentiments to prevent a rise in anti-Semitism.
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@MJC I do not have a strong opinion in this particular development, but your statement “everyone deserves a place to live” is simplistic and honestly a little childish.
Yes of course everyone deserves a place to live, but no one deserves to have that place subsidized to the gills by others.
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@MJC Of course they deserve a place to live what they don't deserve is to funnel state funds to their private schools and the expense of other children learning, they have been doing that for years, they don't assimilate either, and they don't inoculate their many children. All true btw.
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While I agree that there could be many potential issues to Hasidics moving in to a town, I’m frightened at some of the comments and the article that treats them as only a threat. They are people too and deserve a place to live. I don’t think there would be an article written about another minority group like this and that scares me as an excuse to single them out. I don’t think this is anti-Semitic at all (the article or the town’s not wanting Hasidics), but we must be careful in how we articulate these sentiments to prevent a rise in anti-Semitism.
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@MJC As many have already stated here the issue revolves around allowing any fundamentalist religious sect to move en-mass into an existing community, which religion is involved is academic. From what I've read so far it as zero to do with anti-semitism. But you seem to have missed the point, they are not trying to prevent a family from purchasing a home in town. They are trying to prevent a new culturally insular religiously exclusive town being constructed within their own existing community. Why would any current resident want or support that?
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@MJC Your fear of possibly rising anti-Semitism should not confuse the issue: The fear of Hasidic "take-over" of neighboring secular/other religious communities through voting majorities that radically reduce school funding (for non-Hasidic schools) and reduced property taxes that hit the non-Hasidic population with steeply declining town services etc. As you can read in the many comments: the Hasidic use these tactics solely to their advantages at the crude expense of others. The orthodox in Israel also are attacked by many non-orthodox for their privileges (not serving in the army; support for their excessively large families) and rigorous self-interest seeking.
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Too much density, too many sq ft, and the planning board has every right to limit both, regardless of some side comments.
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@Sailor Sam
Yeah, but the problem is that their intentions in limiting the development go far beyond this. If this was actually the only thing people were concerned about, that would be fine, but this is clearly not the case here as evidenced by this article.
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@EL Correct- visit Rockland County where the East Ramapo Building inspector was convicted of taking bribes from developers. Building codes are not enforced as the politicians are afraid of incurring the wrath of the bloc vote. The towns up here are also getting crushed by Religious Land Use And Institutionalized Persons Act lawsuits.
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I'm Jewish, but my personal experiences with Hasidics have been negative. I've also read things that I don't approve of about them.
They'e fundamentalists, and tht's a term I fear and abhor.
We need communities that grow outward, not inward. Hasidic communities are self-serving.
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@Roy G. Biv
My experience has been the same.
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@Roy G. Biv I too am proudly Jewish, and I am a homeowner of a house in Rockland County. I'm afraid I have to agree with you and have seen first-hand many of the negative effects to which you refer.
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@EL
That's not what he's saying. He's saying that the Hasidim are NOT friendly to other groups. They don't extend a hand of friendship or help, except to help themselves. They are not interested at all in the larger community, while they expect us, with our tax dollars care for them. It's a very lopsided arrangement.
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There is no need for hundreds of single family dwellings in the 3,000-4,000 square foot range. Environmental outrage, to say the least. A giant stress on natural resources. The only time to "get it right" with lower-impact housing, is at the very beginning; that is, when they're being planned & built. Clearly, this is a concept not on the developer's radar. No one needs a 3,500 house. Unless, of course, there are going to be thirty people living in said house.
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@Tom
I'm not a fan of what I see as occasional Hasidic entitlement towards public resources and playing fast and loose with separation of church and state to get exclusive benefits for their sectarian institutions.
That said I'm even less a fan of the idea that "no one needs (insert something you don't like here)".
If someone wants a 3500 sf home that is up to them. My home is not that much smaller than that and it's by no means huge. Thirty people living in a 3500 sf home would indeed be overcrowded. If I had the wealth I would happily built a replica of the Biltmore mansion and live happily ever after.
If you have the money and the desire buy whatever size house that works for you and yours. It's not up to anyone else, just as the number of children you have isn't up to anyone else (besides your spouse).
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@Tom
I too am not a fan of houses of such size. That said, your statement of "No one needs a 3,500 house" doesn't ring true to a family with 6,7, 8+ children!
I would hope a home with that many kids would have at least 3 bathrooms! ;-)
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@Lilo
But if you have any kind of a social conscience you limit yourself. Overconsumption and overpopulation are at the root of the world’s most dire problems. We’re not going to be able to live like this anymore if we want to live at all.
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