“It would have been nice to have at least one female engineer in the set”
What a ridiculous PC world we live in that a simple crossword puzzle cannot have the names of four famous engineer/inventors without being criticized for not including a female name. So sad.
3
@JR “It would have been nice” is the mildest criticism possible; it says a lot that the mere mention of how it *would* be nice can get someone so riled up.
3
I was so happy at Woodstock yesterday but did my usual Thursday steady study shuffle. Forward but never reverse . . . buona notte.
2
My "engineer" in 46A was Niels Henrik ABEL, although he was more a mathematician than engineer.
1
@Ron
One of the earliest GROUPIES.
I really enjoy messing around with these puzzles and make use of auto check and the other aids. I sometimes read the comments and have to shake my head and smile.
Methinks our purposes are vastly different. I don’t care about times. I groan about some of the clues and think some are too precious by far. I use my many years of teaching reading to ponder blends, digraphs and vowels.
I don’t travel, watch movies or know squat about musical (?) references.
So, I think it truly grand that we all bring our differences to these word plays.
I harbor the conceit that I could write a puzzle that would be fun for you to do—and would be full of words completely frustrating for you.
I would use words like farrow, and other farm specific words.
Take excellent care of yourselves. All the best to you from flyover country.
12
Lodi’s s i,
Farrow? Pass the bacon.
And maybe harrow? Crossed with disc?
Looking forward to your puzzle.
4
@Lodi’s s i
Please do check in more frequently. The more the merrier!
1
Always nice to see progress with words. Started with a grid-worthy FARO a few days ago, which led to Farro (and my brush with Tuscan soup), and today progresses to Farrow, which confirms the bucolic trend (if not necessarily into 'flyover country'). It never hurts to have a handy someone who can tell a shoat from a stoat.
otoh, it's best to not discus harrows, upon my soul, I know I've toad you so in the past.
Welcome to Conceit Harbor, Lodi's. Catch you on the back forty.
2
Did anyone notice that the first letters of the four engineers in reverse order spell "bent?" That's a good word to describe this puzzle with its OCEANAUT, OUTRIVAL, UNTAG, and MESDAMES. All in all, a joyful crossword.
3
Yeah that theme is way too cryptic, but I appreciate that it was just an extra bonus rather than needed for solving the puzzle.
4
OK, I totally missed this today, but fortunately my son wrote me with the observation that our home town of oTTAWa was particularly theme-worthy today!
13
Apologies if this is in an earlier comment, but reading the Constructor Notes makes it clear that Alexander is the BELL of the BALL.
(Apologies anyway, I guess.)
18
I rather missed the usual Thursday trickiness, since all of the themers were easy and entered quickly.
I didn't notice the bracketed numbers at all, even after I had entered the revealer and gone back to find the engineers. In fact, even that after-the-fact search failed in that I couldn't see BELL. It wasn't until I got to Deb's column and saw the reference to the numbers that I went back and saw the "[4]" that I found BELL.
So that's on me. But I'm kinda glad that I didn't notice the numbers because it did add an extra layer of solving. OTOH, if I had noticed the numbers, I'd have had a different extra layer, so it's kinda immaterial.
OHO before OOH, but only briefly. OUTSHINE before OUTRIVAL. OUTRIVAL? Really?
Never heard of Chuck LORRE or his nickname. Post-solve Google showed that I'd only ever seen two of his shows, both quite a long time ago and both pretty short-lived.
I'd repressed LYNNE Cheney's first name and could only think of daughter Liz. Heredity.
Never herd of GREGG Popovich. Remember APOLO Ohno because weird spelling. (Is his middle name Noel?)
Don't do Facebook, so didn't know that UNTAG was FB lingo.
Never saw "Game of Thrones," but sorta remembered NAT from XWPs.
Liked clue for BANGS and loved clue for USURY.
Looking forward to really crunchy and chewy Friday and Saturday.
3
"(Is his middle name Noel?)"
lol. Oh, no.
"Never saw 'Game of Thrones,' but sorta remembered NAT from XWPs."
NAT, NED, whatever.
Never watched it either.
1
@Barry Ancona
"neither."
I’m really chuffed.
Wasn’t it just yesterday someone submitted a lovely comment with EULER EULER in place of Burkett’s Bueller, which elicited a slew of Oiler Oiler responses. Me being in my usual state of confusion, admitted to having to REVERSE ENGINEER the process with Bernoulli to catch the joke of it all
Which resulted in a warm fuzzy when I saw my REVERSE ENGINEERING surface as today’s reveal and I can freely admit it helped me figure out the theme - - Not at all.
Maybe next time
Still a first rate puzzle, cleverly done
6
I figure you all know that was 'Bueller Bueller' the last time I looked at it, before the Otter Co-wreck changed it to ' Burkett's', which isn't even the right spelling for the lymphoma...
Comment dites-ons en Francais -- Harrumphez-moi, Mesdames et Messieurs?
3
@ Leapfinger
Je dirais qu'une vraie dame ne harrumphs jamais...
3
Helas, @Sam Coeur de Lyons!! De temps en temps, aussis les dames les plus distinguées trouveront impératif a Harrumpher juste un p'tit peu.
[mphfft]
2
Excellent reveal. If only a railroad ENGINEER hadn't popped into my head. I couldn't see the men in the theme answers even if you hit me
over the head with a TESLA or an EDISON. Still, beautifully done, Andrew Zhou!
Anybody else have GEldS before GLUES? That made that OCEANAUT very hard to see.
1
@Johanna - Yes! I had any number of things there and gelds seemed best for a while. That square of four letters eluded me for a good fifteen minutes of pure head scratching. I couldn't imagine anything working for either of the two acrosses nor the two downs!
I entered SPAYS first time through, which caused no end of confusion...
1
This was a very dumb theme.
2
@Nicholas
We encourage a more thoughtful approach to commenting on Wordplay.
What, in particular, did you think was dumb? Were there any parts you did like? These are all good points to make, as they are helpful to the constructor.
13
@Nicholas I thought it was an interesting theme. I liked the ENGINEERS' names in the themers. They were all familiar and interesting people. I knew to look for them in REVERSE because of the revealer. Catching on to the theme wasn't essential to solving the puzzle today, but I found it fun after the fact to go back and hunt down the names... like puzzle within a puzzle.
7
@Nicholas
Thursday in particular often offers a two-part challenge. First you fill in the puzzle, then you get another bit of fun in figuring out what’s embedded there.
I lift a glass to Thursdays and REVERSE ENGINEERING.
3
Interesting enough
But I sort of miss rebus.....
6
Kind of dull IMO. I solved the puzzle without ever seeing the theme, though I guessed it was something to that effect. Even after reading the column I don't really think of those guys as engineers first and foremost, and I honestly don't even know who the engineer in NOSIDEEFFECTS is, and I'm not too inclined to spend more time to figure it out. Some shading and an easier cluing would've made this a fine Tuesday puzzle, but as it stands not really what I look forward to in a Thursday.
1
I do see now that its Edison, who again I don't really think of as an engineer first and foremost. Maybe the puzzle would've worked better with types of engineer spelled backwards in words. I dunno.
On to Friday!
1
This one goes in the “Completed” column. (Too much reliance on Deb’s WoW.)
Could NOT figure out why Ms. Ball would have a museum in Jamestown. For some reason, I associate her more with the area of Palm Springs and Rancho Mirage. But Wiki educated me as to her birthplace.
OCEANAUT was a HUGE stumble.
Clue for MESDAMES should have referred to WOMEN - - not necessarily LADIES. (But I’m willing to give benefit of doubt.)
Strangely (to me) TYE was not in my memory banks - - in spite of many years sailing the Georgian Bay. But I feel “excused” because we had NO “yard” on a 33-foot sloop.
Never saw OREO advertised that way - but crosses filled.
Re: Clue for 13D - If I never saw THAT name in a puzzle again, it would be too soon!!
Theme answers and revealer came - sort of - readily. Looking for engineers’ names backward didn’t come to me without Deb’s help.
Worser and worser - - - I thought today was Wednesday and kept wondering why I was taking so long on a solution! Whew! I’m relieved.
Inventive theme and implementation.
3
@PeterW - consider "Ladies and Gentlemen" = "Mesdames et Messieurs."
3
@David Connell
In that context - yes. But consider THIS one;
Mesdames Smith and Jones were arrested for soliciting ....
But also consider that “madame,” the singular, is literally “my lady.”
re: The picture for today’s column
Why go to all that trouble???
It’s much easier to just order it from Amazon!
You just need the Part Number.
Maybe for something like this: https://searchcio.techtarget.com/definition/clean-room-technique
I sailed through the top half of the puzzle and then completely bogged down in the lower half with bad guesses and no-knows. At some point I seriously believed that I would not finish. When finally the word REVERSE began to appear in 55A, I decided to look backwards at the three long entries that I had completed. I quickly found TESLA, NOBEL and EDISON. I figured BELL would have to be in there and found a way to insert the letters backwards into 46A. Then, Bingo! LUCILLE BALL appeared. I felt as though I had REVERSE ENGINEERED that entry, and the rest of the puzzle fell into place.
Did I like OCEAN? NOT!
60A and 63A together could have simply had the one clue for 63A. "Topics in couples therapy": INNER NEEDS.
I'm not sure what it means when a 2011 hurricane is more memorable (memorabler?) than a 2008 second lady. Although I did remember who and what her husband was.
6
@ Andrew
“Did I like OCEAN? NOT!”
I snorted out my coffee when I read that. It was the one clue that brought my speeding through the puzzle to a good 10-minute halt. And yes, IRENE was also instantaneous for me, while LYNNE, well, less instantaneouser...
2
@Sam Lyons and Andrew I was surprised that IRENE wasn't instantaneous for me. Usually I am on a first-name basis with major hurricanes. I did have a toddler in 2011, so I guess a lot of events from that time period are a bit blurry in my memory.
1
Other than arguably research or positive-expectations placeboes, you're unlikely to find a drugmaker that claims NO SIDE EFFECTS for any medication these days. They don't want to get sued. Every medication comes with a manufacturer-approved *long* list of potential adverse side effects. See drugs.com, enter any medication, and click the Side Effects button.
2
@Clutch Cargo
Or simply listen to what is said on any television commercial during the soft-focus parts!
2
@ Clutch Cargo
The same occurred to me but then Andrew Zhou clued it with ‘drugmakers,’ not ‘pharmaceutical companies.’ Cue in infomercial snake oil “miracle cures” that will make you thinner/happier/fitter/gorgeous...er with NO SIDE EFFECTS whatsoever. (Or no effects whatsoever, period, more likely).
Btw, your handle would make a great clue.
3
@Sam Lyons
"Drugmakers" is common shorthand for pharmaceutical companies, but good point. I tried to think of a better Thursday clue for NO SIDE EFFECTS and came up empty, but you suggest one: "Snake oil makers' claim"
1
Nice puzzle with fewer quirks than I thought appropriate for a Thursday. Would have preferred "Peter" setting the the clue for 51D.
I believe the theme clued in 55A is slightly awry: my preference would have been "copy", not "reproduce". Reverse engineering is actually a form of intelligence gathering -- or, not to make too fine a point of it, spying.
That said, the use of "engineering" is apt even if the reverse names don't seem to match. Etymology comes up with this: "the words engine and engineer (as well as ingenious) developed in parallel from the Latin root ingeniosus, meaning 'skilled'. An engineer is thus a clever, practical, problem solver. "
From http://www.dynenco.net/etymology_eng.htm
1
Reverse engineering is the legal workaround to someone else’s patent.
4
@Don Brearley
I had to think about that. The situation is actually fairly complicated, see, e.g.,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_engineering
and even then the wiki article needs work.
@Dr W @Don Brearley
Interesting concept from several angles. As is the snake-oil article, Dr W.
Thanks!
It is a little-known fact that REENIG, NÉE SREVER, was an Icelandic engineer who invented the gyrocaustic kleptoframis. She is best known for doing everything backwards. Her first name, date of birth and death, as well as her other inventions are shrouded in mystery.
May this factoid remain little-known for eternity.
17
@Laszlo
I don't think you will lose any sleep on this one.
@Laszlo
Það er ekki satt. Hun heitir Sreversdóttir. ;)
5
@Morgan
I tried reading your comment backwards but that didn't help either!
2
Gamey. So very gamey.
The NE and SW corners did not come easily for me. Loved OCEANAUT, OUTRIVAL and DROOL, but never quite got the idea of the theme.
Some uncertainty with various language specific answers, GECKO before GNOME and LYNDE before LYNNE. Last clue was INNER Mongolia, first was TAT.
Kudos!
3
I may be a little dense this AM but I don't get the clue for THUSLY. I would get "So, archaically" or "So, formally" but "humorously?
5
@Chris Atkins
So when I say "thusly," it's not funny? Elaine is right?
4
@Chris Atkins
BTW, "thusly" is not archaic or formal. It's relatively recent (19th-century) and hypercorrect. "Thus" is already an adverb, so "thusly" is really not a word.
1
Chris Atkins,
Dictionary editors haven't accepted Martin's last thought. THUSLY, you can look it up and confirm its relatively recent (and U.S.) origin.
Martin,
It's all in the delivery. If Elaine tells you it's not funny when you say it, believe her.
I feel like there should be a little bit of a defense for the theme by this point...
Here's an article on an engineering website with a listing of the twenty "greatest engineers of all time" -
https://interestingengineering.com/the-20-greatest-engineers-of-all-time
Three of the four in our puzzle today are on the list. Nobel is missing, but he was very certainly an engineer and an impactful one.
When I think of a very important engineer whose fame lies entirely within the scope of engineering, I think of Isambard Kingdom Brunel. The worlds of trains and bridges, the world of 19th century commerce, were greatly changed by his life's work. But how well-recognized is his name _outside_ of engineering? He is second on the list at the page I linked to.
It is precisely because they were _more_ than engineers that the names in the puzzle made it into the puzzle. That doesn't mean they weren't engineers!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isambard_Kingdom_Brunel
10
@David Connell - Following up - I just revisited Brunel's wikipedia page myself and there it states that in 2002 he came in second on the list of greatest Britons of all time. Even better than 2nd greatest engineer, I suppose. Either way, I'd wager his name is not well-known enough for puzzle placement in our place and time.
fallen urbanity
3
@David Connell - okay, my little obsessional spree will come to a halt soon...but I invite a full reading of the Oxford Dictionary's online page regarding the word "engine"
https://public.oed.com/blog/word-stories-engine/
I think it makes everything abundantly clear.
As a language historian (amateur), I have always enjoyed the bizarre reversal within the word "engine" (from "in-gen").
3
@David Connell
One below Churchill and one above Lady Di. Darwin and Shakespeare took 4th and 5th, respectively. Surprising to this American that Brunel beat those two out (it was a public poll and Brunel is obviously much well-known in the UK than here). Thanks for the intro!
As for the theme and the complaints that these "guys" were not engineers, as you point out, they were. But in addition, it's Thursday and a bit of intentional (or unintentional) opacity is to be expected, and usually appreciated. Plus, REVERSE ENGINEER is a common phrase and lends itself so nicely to being a revealer of the sort seen here.
5
As a rule, I am not a fan of crosswords that solve easily (and themelessly) and then present a theme.
I did not find this one to be an exception to the rule.
14
@Barry Ancona
This is essentially what my missing comment last night said. But you said it better so I’m glad mine is gone.
4
If the Crossword Genie granted me one wish it would be this: No more cable channels.
Other than that little nit, this was a great puzzle with big ah ha moment.
7
@ Bruce D
I’d go even further and appeal to the Genie of General Wished for no cable, period. Luckily for my husband, I love him more than I despise TV sets or I wouldn’t have one (TV, that is). Plus he’s the reason I get all of the ESPN-themed clues...
1
I found the themers NOBEL and BELL by myself, but I don't think of them as ENGINEERs, so I was still looking for acts like 'unscrew' or 'saw open' or 'pry apart'--all things that our son was prone to do with his toys. (And yes, he's now a computer ENGINEER.) After Deb's column straightened me out (somewhat) I noticed ole Thomas Alva NOSIDE hanging around.
I thought of HOHO's as the 'WonderFilled' junk food.
Chuck LORRE? Srsly?
GREGG Popovich?
NovelETTE? (you meant 'novella,' right?)
OCEANAUT? (said nobody, ever)
Too much to do, so once again I quit on the Wee Bee after reaching Genius Plus and detecting the pangram, which really eluded me for quite some time. No COLDPACK? Those are always being recommended to me.
Made a really tasty goat-cheese/olive/basil/tomato pasta dish last night. Life is good.
6
@Mean Old Lady As a former OCEANAUT, I have to respectfully disagree.
3
@Mean Old Lady
When there were many more magazines publishing shorter fictional forms (mid-twentieth century), to see the term novelette in publishing was more common. It is longer than a short story, shorter than a novella (back then, 7,500 words to 17,500). I only know this because one of my favorite writers specialized in them.
3
@ Chief Quahog
Aren’t you marine biologists better known for being OCEANuTS than mere OCEANAUTS, though...?
1
Maybe if the revealer had been REVERSE INVENTOR...
I filled in the grid without the slightest idea of what the theme answers had in common. Not the least clue.
But once I got to REVERSE ENGINEER, I said "Aha!" I then went looking either for the hidden name of an engineer in reverse or a hidden synonym for engineer in reverse. I saw...nothing. Nada.
Casey Jones, anyone?
I guess the problem is that I don't think of EDISON, BELL and NOBEL as engineers. I don't know what I think of TESLA as. In fact I never think about him at all. Anyway these were not the names I was looking for and therefore I didn't see them. But I should have seen them, you say? Of course I should have, but I'm not visual. I could tell you some crazy lack-of-observation stories if you have the time...
2
@Nancy
Yeah-- TESLA was a physicist.
BELL was a teacher of the deaf.
NOBEL played with chemicals (and got a BANG out of it)
2
The problem is that they are known for those things, but it doesn't mean that they weren't engineers, in a broad sense. If they'd made things and built stuff, they are pretty much engineers. Inventors are generally engineers.
If you restrict definition of engineer to be those that are formally trained and professionally certified, then they probably would not fit the definition.
10
Once again I had to have Deb explain to me what I just solved. Doh!
8
INANE INNER NPR (see 59A-61A) has potential. On mine, All Things Considered becomes All Things Hippopotamus, Terry Gross is obsessed with knock-knock jokes, and Click and Clack are back on the air (miss them a lot).
2
Four minutes under my Thursday average. It helped that I've been to the museum ( it's actually two side by side, one for the person and one for the show) and seen both statues, the weird one and the redo. Being an engineer didn't help, though.
1
Why so little love for this clever, complex and very neatly constructed puzzle? I found it thoroughly enjoyable and pitch-perfect for a Thursday. Maybe I'm just having a good day...
20
One of those magical days where I solve the puzzle and *still* don't get the theme...and even after reading this article, I had a hard time finding NOBEL...waah, Ricky!
6
I've never failed so miserably on any puzzle (Fridays and Saturdays included) as I did on this one. Wasn't close. A couple things I should have known but couldn't remember, but even when I just went ahead and started revealing things, I just couldn't get a decent foothold anywhere.
Doesn't exactly seem like a Thursday theme to me, but I'm in no position to judge.
2
Rich,
Yesterday, you wrote: "Would like to hear more details about what you did." Was that what I did during the Zero Week interview to get the MOS I wanted, or what I did after Basic with that MOS?
Also regarding yesterday's discussion, my minor nicks and scrapes, which never required an aid station much less a medevac, permit me to have MRIs, but at one step on the checklist each time, I have to write "Yes, but no longer" or "Yes, but not since the last MRI" or some other qualifier. P.S. You're not missing anything.
3
@Barry Ancona After basic.
Regarding MRIs: Even though I got the monthly check for years, I was never really sure if that half wasn't just another act of kindness on the part of the VA doctors. About 4 years ago, my physician wanted me to have an MRI. I told her and the nurse who was actually going to do the test the same thing: That I'd been told there was some shrapnel left, but I really wasn't sure. I was in the machine for about 3 seconds and she pulled me out and said, "you've got a lot of metal up there." I was a bit surprised. I know the surgeons who originally operated on me got out quite a bit, but I guess there were a lot of very tiny pieces.
Rich,
But not enough to trip the somewhat less sensitive TSA devices, I trust...
2
Deb, not sure why no one has said anything yet, but the revealer is REVERSE ENGINEER, not REVERSE ENGINEERING.
2
Wen,
Oops! I guess you didn't get the message? We'd agreed we wouldn't say anything about it.
7
@Wen
My INANE INNER NPR . . . nah, forget it. Can’t think of anything clever to say. But I do like the idea of an INANE INNER NPR (59A-61A) in which Terry Gross tells fart jokes and All Things Considered changes its name to All Things Hippopotamus.
2
Thanks, @Wen. I've corrected in in the column.
1
This must have been very tricky to do; it was quite tricky for me to see those "engineers"/inventors, but was glad I kept trying, very satisfying as the last one for me, EDISON finally popped out at me.
1
@suejean, Have I caught something from Vaer?
The last time I read the comments mine appeared twice.
I finished this one in decent time last night, but I was scratching my head at the end. I knew it obviously had something to do with engineers being backwards in the themers, but I just didn't see them.
There were two reasons for my difficulty:
1. I was at a concert last night after a long day at work, and I was very tired when I did the puzzle after midnight. That doesn't usually hinder my ability to complete a crossword, but sometimes the clever lagniappe hidden in a theme may not be that obvious to me.
2. I know that all of those guys were technically engineers, but really, folks, when someone says, fill in the blank: Tesla was a famous _____; Bell was a famous ____, what's the first word you think of?
If you didn't say INVENTOR, you're not of this planet. So I'm racking my brain over who is a famous engineer, thinking of my not-famous crazy ex-brother-in-law and my not-famous nephew, his son, just a little quirky in comparison, and my concept of an engineer is someone who toils in relative obscurity. I never think of famous inventors as engineers.
That doesn't make anything in the puzzle wrong; it just means a tired old guy looked at the revealer and just said HUH?
4
@Steve L
Agree with your point number 2. and whatever this says about me, the first engineer that comes to my mind is the fictional Howard Wolowitz from Big Bang Theory (hangs head in shame for such a pop culture reference). But let's give a little shoutout to Chuck Lorre way down in the SE corner who created the show. And while I'm at it, give the show credit for creating two woman characters worked in science fields.
7
@Steve L - I really feel like there needs to be a little pushback on this notion.
To engineer something - be an engineer - is to create an inventive solution to a problem.
To invent something - be an inventor - is to create an inventive solution to a problem.
Inventors are engineers; engineers are inventors.
An inventor who doesn't engineer the invention is...a failure.
An engineer who doesn't invent the engine is...a thief (and I will refrain from making comments on Edison, the Thief-in-Chief).
Invenire - the original Latin word - means "to discover" as in "to stumble across something that exists and has never been known before" - an "inventor" at root is a bumbling fool who happens across something that already is. "Oh, look," said Columbus the inventor, "The Indies! Huzzah!"
Engine - Ingenious - Engender - those come from a "kindling" etymon, and mean "to cause to come into relational being." It is the engineer who invents. The inventor who engineers. They are cut from the same cloth.
[drexel in the blood]
7
@David Connell
As a double Temple parent (B.A. son and recent physician assistant master's daughter), I'm pushing back on your pushback. I didn't say that the four famous people weren't engineers. I didn't say the premise was patently (see what I did?) wrong. I just said that a tired Steve L had difficulty seeing what they were going for, since all those people are known as INVENTORS, which I would define as a specific subcategory of engineer who has created a product or products that are significant improvements or innovations, whereas engineers can be run-of-the-mill problem solvers. A lot of internet discussion seems to support this idea. It's not that Edison wasn't an engineer, but rather that we don't usually think of him as such.
And it's not that the theme concept is wrong; it's just a little off, and it didn't sing to me.
Highly enjoyable though perhaps a tad benign for a Thursday?
However I earned my requisite and delightful torture with the TriGram Two-Step which was like an extended NPR Sunday Puzzle. So much fun.
Something I love about puzzling is the wide variety of (sometimes obscure) inroads available to the solver. In an Acrostic you get hints from words lengths and positions (like solving a cryptogram) as well as the title letters. In a crossword you have the . . . crosses. In the TriGram when you've made some progress you can see which trigram is bound to which final clue by the process of elimination (I just made that sound so much more complicated than it actually is).
2
@AudreyLM In fact it's kind of like . . . reverse engineering! (my esprit de l'escalier du jour)
2
@AudreyLM
Where is this TriGram Two-Step of which you speak?
1
@Deadline On my laptop (mac/chrome browser) it appears at the bottom of the crossword puzzle page under Variety Puzzles (where I usually look for the Acrostic or Puns and Anagrams) Enjoy!
LETTER BOXED
I have Z-S (6), S-L (9)
The Z-word is archaic, and is a Shakesperian exclamation.
3
@Mari
I got U-S(7) S-Z(6)
Yesterday, there were lots of 13s. Besides the two that were everybody's solutions, holts-speaking and alights-spoken, with help I also found pang-ghostlike and paths-songlike
3
@Phil P I think your solution will be the NYT's solution tomorrow - simple and straightforward. I did try some words around the S-Z(6) one, but didn't see the obvious!
@Mari
I got the same. I later used the first word out loud later when I filled in OCEANAUTS in the crossword. Not a fan.
OMG both the XWP and SB are ever so much harder after a red eye flight with maybe a half hour sleep. We may pass somewhat near suejean in Harrogate on our train to Whitby, but plan to be asleep then. Better luck on Friday!
3
@Margaret, A pity we couldn't meet as I did with Liz and Mr. B. Weather reports not great but I hope you enjoy Whitby anyway.
@suejean We have our waterproofs!
1
@Margaret
Have fun in Whitby! We quite enjoyed it!
1
A 15-letter gimme should have made the puzzle pretty easy but it still took a couple of minutes longer than average because I got stuck forever on OCEANAUT, which I would happily drown. Might have gotten there a little faster if I had ever heard of TLC ( the tv channel, at least).
The theme was no help (or hindrance) in filling in the puzzle, but once I got it it was fun to look back and find TESLA, NOBEL, and others in their entries.
Regrettably I’ve never heard of any of the women Mr. Zhou considered (except Hedy Lamarr) so I’m kind of glad he didn’t use them. I would have recognized Grace Hopper but I’m not sure what English or crosswordese phrase contains REPPOH.
2
@Doug
I'm sorta kinda disappointed that Hedy Lamarr didn't make it, because her important contributions as an inventor have been eclipsed by her work in flicks.
Of the others mentioned, I only knew of Judith Resnick and Emily Roebling.
I’m an engineer, so I got tripped up by ADA, which I think of more as construction legislation than a civil rights act.
2
@James Hamje
Fair comment but the year gave it away. I'm pretty sure I remember a very similar clue from a recent XWP.
1
@james Hamje
A good reminder that ensuring civil rights often requires structural changes.
9
@James Hamje
Construction is only one of 5 arms of the Civil Rights Law known as the ADA; Title I covers employment, II, government services, III, public accommodations, and IV, telecommunications (V is miscellaneous). Title I in particular has changed the world (for the better) for many of my favorite people. It'll be there for you if you ever become disabled, which is likely for most of us if we are lucky enough to live long enough.
9
SPELLING BEE
C A D K L O P
Words: 39,Points: 139 ,Pangrams: 1,Perfect: 1
A x 3
C x 25
D x 1
L x 4
P x 6
4L x 21
5L x 8
6L x 2
7L x 5
8L x 3
4 5 6 7 8 Tot
A - 1 1 1 - 3
C 15 6 1 - 3 25
D 1 - - - - 1
L 3 1 - - - 4
P 2 - - 4 - 6
Tot 21 8 2 5 3 39
40
@Mari and @Ben
I really appreciate you two, and the others who put up these solutions so soon after the puzzle comes out. Ben, I’ve got all your hints except for “greens”, and collard just ain’t there.
Missing A5, A8, and P7.
5
Woops, make that C5 and C8. Not A5 and A8.
2
@BM Think Caribbean greens. The A5 is archaic- perhaps found in Shakespeare or uttered in despair by medieval heroines. There is no A8 - maybe you mean A7? A bottled or canned sweet cocktail designed for drunken teens. P7 - there are 4 of these - 2 fishy (the same fish, with slightly different names), 1 horsey, 1 for security.
12
Spelling Bee
39 words, 139 points, 1 perfect pangram, no bingo
4 5 6 7 8 Σ
A - 1 1 1 - 3
C 15 6 1 - 3 25
D 1 - - - - 1
L 3 1 - - - 4
P 2 - - 4 - 6
Knock yourself out with something fizzy for happy hour, but don’t forget the fish and greens dinner on the pasture afterwards.
29
@Ben - I felt like this was a soft-drink ad placement. "Enjoy your hot summer with an ice ___D ___A-___A! It's the real thing!"
5
@Ben
Thanks for the grid. It helped uncover a glitch. I often start the Bee on the phone during the morning consultation with the porcelain oracle. Then I finish on the computer. Today when I checked the grid because I was stuck I realized that the missing words HAD been entered in the extension library on the phone, but had not registered. When I saw the whole list on the computer I was assuming the words weren't allowed, though I had remembered trying them. Typing them in again and QB!! THANKS!!
@Ben
For anyone in sales, not having COLDCALL (as a verb and expectation that you would coldcall N potential customers a day) was a might disappointing.
3
To include a woman in the puzzle, I rEDIRect your attention to Sally RIDE. I know she wasn't technically an engineer but as a physicist and an astroNAUT, she did many engineering types of activities. Close enough for a Xword clue.
And she is given credit for identifying the O-rings as the problem on the Challenger.
(And I know if she were included as an engineer, there would be many comments against the inclusion)
8
@ColoradoZ
Thanks for the update; I had it in my head that Richard Feynman discovered the O ring problem all on his own. I suggest a quick search for "sally ride o rings" for anyone who's interested (and hasn't revisited the subject in 30 years).
Two thumbs up from me although I’ll admit that I am biased. I’m an engineer. My favorite clue was 4A. My favorite engineer is Leonardo da Vinci who was, of course, an engineer and so much more, but he would have been impossible to fit into the theme.
3
I solved this 3 minutes faster than usual for Thursday. I don’t know what the numbers after some clues meant, but I didn’t need to know to solve. The long across clues came easily. I knew the actress name without any down answers filled in or even counting first to make sure she fit.
@Kevin Davis. The numbers are the number of letters in the engineer’s name.
Really helps when most of your first guesses are right! Still took me a long time, a bit better than my houor plus average, but nearly twice my putative (and suspicious) 27:03 Thursday best. Had fun anyway. It took me a few more minutes to figure out the theme, and I was only hoping that the final inventor was Bell. I couldn't find anything more convincing. I was happy to see that Deb confirmed it.
2
I had "upside effects" for a while, thinking that "upside" would be part of the theme. No and no.
1
and Elke
Finally am giving up trying to REVERSE ENGINEER Julie Payette.
Not only is she an engineer (McGill and UofT), she was an astroNAUT and is now the Governor General of Canada.
Not a bad gig for a woman engineer.
Andrew- what can you do with "ETTEYAP" ?
This puzzle was harder to construct than it appears.
6
Elke,
Not quite sure which Andrew you were addressing. Probably the constructor, I'm sure, but between the Canadian connection and the fact that I REVERSE ENGINEERED a HENDRIX clue yesterday, I suppose it might be me.
My answer to your question, "What can you to with ETTEYAP? is "not much". However we did have the ETTE at 40A and I do tend to YAP a bit much.
Justin seems to have gotten himself into hot water...
3
and Elke
Yeah- Andrew of Ottawa- based on your HENDRIX engineering feat, I figured you might come up with some construct...
Sknaht Yawyna.
@Robert
and Elke
On melborp.
It was going like gangbusters (big smile at the BANGS clue, btw) till I almost became a permanent sub-tenant in the NE corner with OCEANAUT. I was being done in by two culinary references: I could not get from RIvES to RICES for the longest time, even though I didn’t think ‘rive’ was right since it doesn’t imply anything being in bits as the result of being riven, and then I didn’t know that GELEE was an alternate spelling for jelly in English. Duh, I *know* ‘jelly’ comes from ‘gelée.’ But it took forever. I had convinced myself that jellied eels must have been known as eELEE and I just wasn’t familiar with it.
By the time it all fell in I was aBOUT to WEEP. A scandalously long solve time for a Thursday for me.
6
Whew! Tricky Thursday is right! I managed to finish (and make a little 4-day streak). The completion caught me by surprise because for some reason I pictured an anole instead of a GNOME as Travelocity’s mascot. Why I thought “anole” is unfathomable.
I also tried to force porkrib instead of BEEFRIB. Being a southern girl with a big slab of pork rib marinating in my fridge I was certain of that answer. Yep, I just caused all sorts of solving problems for myself by being stubborn.
I always think of ebony instead of EBON but oh well.
SYSOP was a blast from the past to the early 80s when I’d hang out in my uncle’s computer room while he built Heathkit computers and ran a BBS. Did anyone here play a game called Adventure from a 5.25 floppy disc? Memories!
Have a great Thursday!
4
@Ms Korunova
Sounds like you are thinking of Colossal Cave. So xyzzy to you. :)
Here's a bit:
go west
YOU FELL INTO A PIT AND BROKE EVERY BONE IN YOUR BODY!
NOW YOU'VE REALLY DONE IT! I'M OUT OF ORANGE SMOKE! YOU DON'T EXPECT
ME TO DO A DECENT REINCARNATION WITHOUT ANY ORANGE SMOKE, DO YOU?
yes
OKAY, IF YOU'RE SO SMART, DO IT YOURSELF! I'M LEAVING!
3
@2woofs
Thank you for that very specific trip down memory lane!! I spent so much time in that cave picking up and throwing axes! I can’t believe you know about this. Were you a SYSOP, too, or a general early computer enthusiast?
Knowledge of that game isn't that rare, a lot of us wasted time with it when we should have been working. It was easy to look busy while you were doing it!
In NE box GAME instead of GLUE (as in 'game the system'). Once I got that fixed, things cleared up.
1
Got the puzzle done without getting the theme. Pretty heady.
At this late hour, now I am hungry for some BAO with an OREO ice cream chaser. Doesn't that sound good?
Wish someone would ENGINEER that for me, but I'm the last woman standing (uh, curled up on the couch) in our house tonight.
4
@Ann
I cry every time I see the Bao animation.
@Ann
Played that game (my first computer adventure game) on my friend's Osborrn with the little teeny screen and the little teeny green letters and the two-word limit on the commands we could enter.
I'm still embarrassed at how long it took me to figure out how to kill the dragon.
@Deadline
Apologies. The above comment was (obviously) meant for a different thread. I reposted it there.
1
Hand up for AQUANAUT. I don't do cryptic crosswords so when I saw numbers in parentheses I thought "Uh-oh." (Now I see that they're brackets, but still.) I was surprised to finish, with all those misleading clues and not discerning the theme - which did not interfere with my solving experience. Is it better when you need to get the theme on a Thursday? I think so, maybe, because for me this behaved like a regular puzzle. But since Tricky Thursdays aren't my forte I 'spose I shouldn't complain.
3
@Suzy M.
I totally forgot to figure out what those numbers were for. I would have been fully confident of BELL had I looked back at the (4). Thanks for bringing it up.
1
A fun puzzle but a helpless theme: none of the themed entries needed the theme to be filled in (quite easily for a Thursday), so this was more of a "post hoc" analysis and appreciation opportunity. Once I got to the reveal, I wasn't thinking people, but branches of engineering. MECH, CHEM, ELEC, CIVIL, INDUS, etc. Not seeing any of them, the names of engineers then popped out. All in all, fun but TAME for a THU, SLY but NOT A BENE.
10
This was kinda tough for me. I had to use crosses to get the long themers... embarrassed that I had to have most of LUCILLE BALL filled in before I saw her. Never saw BELL. I didn't see EDISON, TESLA or NOBEL until reading Deb's column.
Well, there's always tomorrow. THUSLY, I'll march forward.
:-\
5
@Just Carol I was just about to drop my subscription and just do the minis, except I've had to take a few 'reveals' there recently... I've had to take a few 'reveals' on the full crossword puzzle over the last few days, too. So I was obviously blue (or whatever today's clue is). Then today I was able to finish and get the long crosses as well as see the trick. And on a Thursday to boot. So I guess I'll stick it out a little while longer, too. Onward to tomorrow.
7
After inserting RIVES at 16A, I was completely baffled by 11D. Such is life.
The revealer clue was fairly unambiguous, but even after filling it in and guess the meaning, it was hard to find the names in the theme entries.
3
@Alan Young
Hand up for RIVES.
I understand why OCEANAUT hung me up, but GLUES? Well, perhaps because of GELEE, but GLUES should have been a gimme, especially in a puzzle that started out with TAT and OOHS (two honorable bits of Xword GLUE).
Loved the theme — actually had a rare (for me) mid-solve Thursday Aha! after getting REVERSE ENGINEER and seeing TESLA and NOBEL in the top two themers. The cluing was slick throughout, the fill filling, and DER GLUE was nothing to NIT or NAT about. Thank you, Andrew!
8
Having now read Deb’s column and Andrew’s Constructor’s note, which both point out what should have been obvious to me, I wonder why ADA was not clued to Lovelace. Would at least have been a small nod to female inventors/engineers. I suppose one could say that LUCILLE BALL helped invent the TV sitcom, and I was happy to see her (in part because it was a gimme but mostly because I love Lucy).
12
@Puzzlemucker
Also, Lucille Ball is responsible for greenlighting the TV show “Star Trek”. She bankrolled the two pilot episodes through her production company (Desliu), and the rest is history. Admittedly, she thought the show was about a traveling USO troupe. Whatever; as a geek, I’m still grateful to her.
17
@Puzzlemucker
Methinks Ada’s reputation is much more firmly imbedded in mathematics than in “engineering” - her work on Babbage’s machine notwithstanding.
Fun, Fun, Fun! A little GLUE was ECLIPSED by four excellent theme answers and an original idea. Now that I'm writing this, I feel like all of the backwards people were more inventors than engineers, but I guess they are also engineers.
AQUANAUT before OCEANAUT and MADAMMES (I didn't know how else spell it) before MES DAMES. Both correct answers were new.
And Deb, I remember seeing that BAO before a movie at the theater, but I never would have connected it to the puzzle entry. Thank you for connecting the two.
2
@John S.
You (and Deb) remind me that Bei Bei will be four years old at the end of this month. His birthday will be celebrated August 22.
While that is a wonderful milestone, the sad part is that it means it is time for him to move to China. Preparations are already in progress.
https://nationalzoo.si.edu/animals/news/bei-bei-turning-four
did puzzle pretty fast but did not find the theme a help. actually the revealer clue itself was a bit misleading. did see the engineers at the end!
1
Whew! Or phew, as some would have it. I had no idea what the connection would be here until I got the revealer. Then EDISON jumped out of NO SIDE EFFECTS at me. Then TESLA. Then NOBEL. Then I finally decided that BELL had to be the last one. But in my searching for those last two, I kind of liked coming up with names like NIDNOB (23A) and LABEL (46A).
IRENE could have been clued as "Scientist Joliot-Curie."
As to LUCILLE BALL, I just watched "Dubarry was a Lady" on TCM this week. And discovered the wonderful Virginia O'Brien and her deadpan comedic and singing style. I am going to have to be on the watch for other Virginia O'Brien films.
6
@Liz B
Thanks for the tip, Liz. I found a recent Saturday Evening Post article about Virginia O’Brien (this year would have been her 100th birthday), with video clips inserted in the text, including “Salome” from Du Barry Was a Lady:
https://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/2019/04/virginia-obrien-the-deadpan-dame-of-old-hollywood/
1
Well then, on to Friday.
6
I think my comment went into the ether.
Mr. Mark,
Your comment is here, unless this is your comment about another comment that is not here.
(Write it backwards, perhaps?)
@Barry Ancona
Your comment that my comment was about another comment was a perceptive comment.
6
@Mr. Mark - no comment.
4