This is what the Puerto Rican governor should have threatened. Rule of law.
1
All of these pro-chinese government comments reflects the ignorance and connection they have with the government. Obviously they arent residing in the mainland where the unelected autocratic dictators control their citizens like a king his subjects. I support the hong kong protestors. Unfortunately their future looks bleake.
1
If you have economic or personal interests in Hong Kong, it’s definitely time to consider exiting... this will not end well.
1
China has a lot of troops with little on the job training who will likely be deployed for the experience. The troops need to be hardened so when they meet foreign forces they've been prepared. Don't be surprised if they are sent to express violence on the people.
1
Vague and silly threat. Tianamin Square was not in the worlds public conscious. But the eventual killings of protestors in HK will sully China and likely draw world condemnation. All of its decades and decades efforts in presenting itself as a moderate alternative to the Kremlin and Washington will be undone. China will be labeled a genocidal nation and resulting sanctions will destroy its economy.
A decision to not move in militarily may signal that economics trumps ideology. Maybe we will witness to the last vestiges Communism fade laying bare the real Corporate “Incorporated” State lay open.
2
They don’t care what the world thinks, and thanks to Trump’s tradewar we see China can operate internationally without the need for a relationship with the US.
2
In all fairness, China has been very restrained in interfering into Hong Kong's affairs. In addition, China recognizes that it's easy to send the troops in but it'd be much harder to take the troops out. Putting Hong Kong under permanent military occupation is not an option. And once the troops are withdrawn, which must happen eventually, Hong Kong will be in no better shape; and in fact, probably be in a much worse situation. The problem is, there are those who would like to see China sending troops into Hong Kong and are goading China to do so. If this happens, it'll be a tragedy for the people of Hong Kong.
5
In all fairness, under the reunification agreement of 1997, which created the One Country Two Systems paradigm, Hong Kong and China have separate administrations, economies, and governance until 2047, and HK retains freedom of speech and freedom of the press, also until 2047. China would be further violating their agreement if they invaded HK. In all fairness, China looks absolutely villainous in this entire affair.
9
@Analyst
Please read Hong Kong's Basic Laws before making comments. If you had done so, you'd have known that Hong Kong's autonomy is limited and China is legally empowered to intervene if it's deemed necessary. Btw, the agreement was between UK and China, not some "reunification agreement" by HK.
1
The bill will ultimately be passed no matter how much protesting is for gone. Sure some radical protesters are to cause harm for both (paid) counter protesters and official Chinese authority along with vandalizing or damaging government architecture but the few who cross the red line are exactly what the Beijing government are wanting. The government can do what it pleases to stop the protesters as long as they portray the protesters in a negative nature as a whole rather than the few they are. The direct hint at sending troops is also a mean to ramp up protesters so their dark light shows. The NCNA and other Chinese mainland news coverage teams are only broadcasting the protesters when actual problems arise rather than the weeks of peaceful protesting to demonize the protesters. Taiwan is China's main target as they need it to expand their control of the Asia Pacific. They are swindling and using the 2020 election of Taiwan to pick a worthy candidate to "reunify" with China. As the dictatorship that China is they want to rule the world and express as much power as possible but instead of them acting like Mao, they were patiently awaiting for the perfect time to strike and that is now when the Us backed down. If and only if the our allied nations fight china on this in their territory will be be avoiding a fight with them in ours. Victory against the country is our only option before the inevitable.
1
Let's be honest: we all saw it coming, right from that day in 1997 when we watched the Chinese bused in as the British left.
It was only a matter of time.
3
Of course they could but is it a good idea ? Think about that long and hard.
The CCP will not tolerate any infection from HK of “counter-revolutionary thought”, that is, any open challenge to their dictatorial rule. In the 21st C. images of HK unrest and its causes cannot be easily hidden from mainlanders. Full Internet control is beyond PLA’s capabilities today. Unlike 1989, today armed suppression of the HK grievances cannot be concealed from at least 500 million Middle and upper class Chinese. What will they do? Sheepish acceptance because of their affluence or revulsion because of their affluence?
1
With Mr. Trump cozying up to brutal dictators responsible for the mass torture and murder of their own citizens, China is receiving the message that the US will not attempt to intervene against the PRC’s encroachment into Hong Kong and that they should proceed with such. The administration is allowing Beijing to continue to manipulate Hong Kong to the point of total and unchecked control of the country. What a disappointment this administration is.
3
"threaten the central government's authority"? Please. HK is about as threatening to china's domestic authority as Canada is to the authority of America to rule Alaska. Rather, it is threatening to China's power projection over the south china sea, hence the threat to Taiwan. Overseas chinese in Southeast Asia beware!
2
Trump is a weak president and China is taking advantage of it. Trump has no credibility; he is the bigger threat to the world peace.
5
This would be a disaster for China. The days of Tiananmen square when all China had to do was roll out the tanks are over. At that time in history the Communist Party was the only game in town, and they could do anything they wanted. Now the situation is far different because China is no longer a command economy controlled by the party but is run by a class of business owners and entrepreneurs who operate on capitalist principles. As a result, the Communist Party apparatus no longer serves a purpose and is totally superfluous. Continued demonstrations and protests will only prove its illegitimacy. They control the army, but they can no longer control popular opposition.
2
@Edward
// Now the situation is far different because China is no longer a command economy controlled by the party but is run by a class of business owners and entrepreneurs who operate on capitalist principles//
The class of business owners and entrepreneurs are members of the communist party. Nobody gets to be a millionaire in China without being a party member, and greasing the right palms.
The millions of people in re-education camps and those who literally live on their campus workplace working 12 hours a day would be quite surprised to know that they're living in a capitalist society.
2
Strange how we hear so little from our Canadian MP's of Chinese descent about the detention in China of two innocent Canadians. Well past time to get tough with China. Shutter overseas trade. Close the border. Our universities, natrual resources and real estate will survive.
6
China is doing what totalitarian regimes have done in the past, sent in militants or gangsters to attack protestors, and then send in the troop to quell alleged violent unrest.
6
The People's Republic of China warning the Republic of China on Taiwan about steps toward independence is laughable. The Republic of China has been a free and independent nation since 1949. Way back in 1977 when I lived there briefly it was not really a secret that Taiwan has nuclear weapons. For the communists to pretend they have any kind of hold on Taiwan is preposterous. All their current blatant intimidation is simply bluster to save face.
3
'Colonel Wu pointedly cited the specific article of a law detailing relations between Hong Kong and the People’s Liberation Army. It allows the military to intervene, when requested by Hong Kong’s leaders, to maintain order...'
Unfortunately, China controls Hong Kong's leaders. It's just a short step to another Tiananmen Square type massacre.
2
Perhaps the unrest is caused by mainland Chinese insurgents with the mission to create the appearance of uncontrolled violence....
2
What sayeth the other party to the contest, the UK? I can’t imagine that China sending troops into HK before the 50 year period expires is consistent with the handover agreement. So, Boris???
2
Chinese State is a cross between the Soviet model totalitarian State, Pre-World War -2 Japanese Militarism-Fascism and the export-dependent East Asian model Capitalism. The inner contradictions of the USSR led to the implosion of the State. It was astonishingly non-violent. If and when the Chinese State collapses, it would be a violent explosion --- both internal and external.
China would not hesitate to use maximum force against her own people to enforce the totalitarian dictatorship. She would enslave 'weaker' States --- by a new version of the old "East India Company" model. China has no friends or enemies --- only opportunities to exploit.
Hong Kong is a lost cause. Another "Tiananmen Squire" sacrifice of youth would only be a propaganda victory for a few days. The world's democracies should instead unite politically, militarily and economically --- to stop and contain Chinese Social Fascism, hopefully guiding it to Soviet-like implosion. TTP and formal coalitions are the only way.
3
The hammer in the Communist logo is no longer emblematic. Now it means squashing any thoughts of freedom of speech and action in Hong Kong.
1
Bring on the tanks. China will persevere...
This was inevitable. China is too powerful and we still live in a world of light makes right. America has exhausted itself and no longer cares to apply pressure or stand up for freedom and human rights. The rest of the world is too weak on its own.
Look, this world is still struggling with the definition of basic human rights, let alone its application. We still live in an era of tyranny, strongman politics and oppression. An era that will be seen by future historians and a time of transition from the absolute despotism of the ancient and medieval world to a just word.
It will be another 100 to 200 years before a just world can exist.
1
If only we were going to live that long! Have you read what climate scientists are saying? We are doomed.
1
Reading the comments, it is very apparent the "globalist position" is out in force. As a consequence, a contrarian policy should be brought forward. (The one that most likely will be implemented.) First, there will be no entry of America into this Hong Kong political entanglement. And that doubles for any military assistance. The American military "Pivot to Asia" now has been redefined to protection of sea lanes and a red-line presence in the mid-Pacific. (Japan and South Korea should take heed.) The fate of the Western Pacific Rim now rests with the people of the Western Pacific Rim. Second, refugee immigration status to the US from anyone residing in Hong Kong (or Taiwan) will be denied expeditiously. Look to Britain, and the members of the British Commonwealth, for any relief in that regard. (Hong Kong was a British protectorate.) Canada will most likely be the optimal choice if this course opens. And finally, the US is already in a trade-war with China. International supply chains are being redrawn daily. All to China's economic disadvantage.
4
Time to flee. The smart people left when the British left. But don't all come here, or to Vancouver, you've already ruined those places. Go to Mexico.
17
@Grittenhouse
I know folks from Hong Kong (and Taiwan) who have moved here. They're valued professionals and now American citizens.
Many well-off people in Greater China are hedging their bets by moving some of their wealth offshore. This often comes in the form of housing investments which are legal under the law in the US, Canada, and most of the western world. It's no different than what's done by other wealthy people who happen to be caucasian.
I do favor stronger rules guarding against real estate investments by gangsters, tax avoiders, and kleptocrats. Local jurisdictions can also choose to add surcharges to offset the effect of foreign purchases on housing availability in their markets.
2
Any new immigrants to Philadelphia would improve that city.
3
“You Already Ruined those places”? This compliment doesn’t even try to hide the racism.
4
Keep all eyes on Hong Kong to keep the CCP honest.
Remember- they’re not above massacring their own citizens.
15
This would be the time for America to signal that we will welcome the trove of intellectuals and innovators that should be on the verge of emigrating (defeceting?) from Hong Kong in the quest for unfettered self actualization.
8
@Concerned That would be the avenue for Britain and its Commonwealth nations. (Hong Kong being a former British protectorate.) America is, arguably, already economically strained with with this concept. Hence our present oversupply of H-1B visa holders. A political fault line doesn't need to be exacerbated.
1
This is the start of the transitional period when Chinese government starts changing Hong Kong laws. Total acquisition of Hong Kong by Chinese government happens in 2047 and that's when total Chinese communist law sets in.
If the protestors don't start doing something now, their way of life and freedoms will be lost forever. Especially for future generations.
12
If the world doesn’t stand up to China, they will try to pull this on the rest of the world.
5
Is anyone really surprised at this? Did people really think that China will let Hong King have its own independent governing body. SMH.
10
Canada learned to its cost recently what happens when you cross the Chinese government.
Perhaps China will soon take Hong Kong and Taiwan, but what can we do?
Given the mindset of the regime, it seems futile for other countries to protest when good relations with China create jobs.
2
@Ambrose
For starters, the Trudeau family foundation can stop taking Chinese "donations". Canadian universities who sell their diplomas to Chinese students can stop doing that.
Public organizations, such as the recent group of mayors, can stop accepting Chinese sponsorship and Chinese "educational" events.
The BC casinos who launder Chinese money should be shut down by the government. The NFLD government who literally sold PR status to Chinese "investors" who never stayed in NFLD can also stop doing that.
1
This is just the start towards a transitional total takeover of Hong Kong in 2045. The law states that Hong Kong reverts back to Chinese rule, 100%. in 2045.
After 2045 the western world won't know what is going on. because of censorship. If they don't do something now, then their quest to stay the way they are, will be lost.
4
Isn’t it a shame when Steve Bannon is right about foreign governments?
5
As I person who was born and raised in Hong Kong I can tell you that not everyone supports these so-called protesters. The fact that these people can protest, can riot, can shout anti Chinese slogans freely with no consequences show that the "one country two systems" is working in Hong Kong. That the Chinese Central Government respected Hong Kong's freedom to protest, free press, and free speech. However, as these so-called protesters turned increasing violent and criminal in nature. The Chinese government also has the right and the obligation to restore peace for the sake of the other law-abiding citizens of Hong Kong.
42
@Chan Isn't restoring order the job of the Hong Kong government and police? Carrie Lam could solve a lot of problems by stopping her game of semantics and simply withdrawing the bill that started this current bout of protests, but she and the CCP members in charge of pulling her strings seem like they would rather play a strange game of one-upmanship by only suspending it.
53
Why should the people lives be run by a government that put surveillance on their lives. Let them protest for the right to live on this human infested planet.
21
@Chan If, by law-abiding, you mean being subjected to arbitrary extradition to China for political charges, then your notion of rule of law is quite suspect.
22
The people of HK, knowing far too well the potential consequences, have refused to tremble and obey. They are very, very brave.
The people of Taiwan, Tibet, and Xinjiang are watching, and of course Beijing is too. There is so much to win or loose.
78
@Me Regrettably, before HK, Tibet and Xinjiang were already lost.
Taiwan is a melting pot: of prehistoric Polynesians, of European merchants (for whom Formosa was a base of operations outside the control or interest of the Chinese Empire) from the 1600, temporarily of China, but ceded to Japan in 1895. Modern development established a strong base of Japanese culture, governance, engineering and civil development. After WWII and the ROC diaspora, Taiwan has grown into a world-class modern industrial society, grounded in a multicultural orientation to the entire planet.
Because many Taiwan residents hold dual citizenship or have families in the West, hopefully their independence, diversity, innovation, and peaceful existence may be guaranteed in the same way that Israel has: by thriving independently and having many, many friends around the world.
2
One thing that a lot of news articles fail to mention is that nearly every single HK person has grandparents (or great-grandparents) who fled China, due to famine, revolution or Japanese invasion. Hong Kong people are dreading the return of what they fled. The city used to be only a sleepy fishing village with a few thousand inhabitants - now it is a city of over seven million, built by waves of refugees desperate to escape the cruelty and turmoil of the Chinese authorities.
Hong Kong people are fighting for "civil liberties" - a term which sounds so abstract, but read any account of Soviet Russia or East Germany and you'll find that the Chinese version of it - the spying, the kidnapping, the kangaroo "courts" - are all starting to happen in Hong Kong too. We all know the Communist playbook.
For so long, Hong Kong was a haven, a place where politics wasn't really discussed because everyone was too busy trying to re-build their life in peace and stability, protected by a real legal system. My own grandparents fled in the 1940s and never looked back. I cannot express how much rage I feel that China is wantonly destroying a city that we fought so hard to build. It is despicable.
117
@tsingwun
Thank you for sharing your thoughts. The courageous people of Hong Kong and their families are indeed fighting for civil liberties that we in the West have for so long assumed and taken for granted.
24
@Simba Fighting against impossible odds, and against a totalitarian dictatorship. The people of HK are on their own, internationally. Voicing support for them and their struggle ultimately does nothing, I'm afraid. If they were strategically more sensitive (I know), Xi's gang would at least remove Carrie Lam (and there is an endless list of potential "reasons" they could use for justification).
2
@tsingwun May the hopes and dreams of your ancestors be realized!
I am so impressed and moved by the protests in Hong Kong AND in Puerto Rico.
May the day come (soon!) when Americans take to the streets (and to the ballot-boxes) in such numbers to protest our pseudo-president!
10
I hope that the Hong Kong protesters put discretion ahead of valor for this particular moment. The People's Republic would not hesitate to perpetrate another Tiananmen massacre if it perceived itself threatened enough. I don't know which rebellion playbook asserts that such an eventuality would serve anybody's long-term interest.
6
@John LeBaron
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” Thomas Jefferson
Following your argument, American revolutionaries should have simply acquiesced to their English overlords. Ditto for every other political protest that might end in bloodshed.
The courageous protesters of HK (who appear to represent the longings of the vast majority) should be praised and supported, not scolded. They simply want the PRC to hold up its part of the 1997 agreement that allowed them to keep their own system providing basic freedoms that mainlanders can only dream about. And they want Carrie Lam to back down from her proposed extradition legislation.
How else are they expected to accomplish this goal?
1
@Michael. I take your points, Michael. It's a thin line that divides the need for Ghandi-ist versus Maoist action. I sadly recall the brutality of the PRC's citizen-annihilating carnage of Tiananmen. As just and justified as those protests were, I wonder if the lives so senselessly lost were worth the extreme pain inflicted by a totalitarian state.
After Tiananmen, we now know what the PRC is capable of doing. Handing China an excuse to do it again seems wrong-headed to me.
First, Hong Kong is too radical to insist on keeping its separate system. Second, Taiwan is too radical to talk of separatism. Next, China says Okinawa doesn't belong to Japan. Then the Philippines can't fish in their own waters. Then they think Americans go to far in criticizing Chinese actions. We "undermine their sovereignty" and then threaten us with military force. China will not stop unless the West takes away their economic power!
142
@Justin KoenigHow? The US/West have been sanctioning China for the last 70 years except when their interests are colluded. That has not stopped the rise of China. Too late!
2
@Ray
The West has not been "sanctioning" China in any meaningful way for the last 30 years.
16
@Ray
Don't buy Chinese-made anything.
16
Hong Kong could win this war by offering the Chinese police refugee status in the western world. No police - no fighting.
Or, educate the Chinese paid police while protesting. Sort of like use psychology and aim it personally at the police. Put on your protest banners the phone number they can phone and where to contact if they want to flee China with their families and live in a Democracy. Or educate them so they change sides and join the protest. The pursuit of truth will set you free even if you never catch up with it.
Chinese strength is their army - police state - so work on getting the police and army to join forces with pro democracy protestors.
3
The violent protesters are playing into the hands of the Communist. If they want to keep the freedoms and autonomy Hong Kong has at this time they should stop the violent protest. HK citizens should stop participating in large scale protests in the street that the violent protesters use as cover to commit their acts.
1
IF the US had a president (instead of a big yellow baby who plays one on TV) we would start to push back against China, principally economically, but also by simply standing firm and saying "This far and no further."
China understands economics, better than anyone else.
But don't expect anything significant from the US "government." Trump has other thngs on his mind. Bullying Iran. Threatening to wipe Afghanistan off the map "in ten days."
Bully.
6
The Chinese dictatorship is a dangerous strategic adversary to the US. But it is not our place to be involved in their civil war. If China intends to crush rule of law within Its possession Hong Kong, rather than learn and grow from that more advanced set of ideas and laws, there is nothing we can do about it.
But it is an instructive moment to remind ourselves and the world of the menace of totalitarian state rule, which is tantamount to pure evil. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. China’s government is not legitimate to its people. But it is a sovereign state and we are also not the legitimate government of China.
1
I said this the day these street protests first started. Something like, "Remember Tienanmen Square? Yeah, that's how this is eventually going down." Did anyone listen? Not many. History, people.
Regarding the protests in Hong Kong: I really hope the protesters realize that acts of vandalism are exactly what the government in Beijing wants and desires. It's no accident that mainland media studiously ignored the large, peaceful protests, but started coverage of the acts of vandalism by a very small fraction of the great majority who oppose the extradition laws almost immediately. I also can't help but wonder how many of those who defaced and damaged the legislature's building in Hong Kong were actually Beijing operatives providing the negative publicity for the pro-democracy protesters, and the potential pretext for military intervention.
8
"China Hints Its Troops Could Be Used to Quell Hong Kong Protests."
The warning indicates a red line is already drawn by China's Politburo. Once the protesters cross that red line, Beijing will be ready to send in tanks into Hong Kong's streets. And, I am afraid, when the dust settles, many liberties that Hong Kong residents are currently enjoying could be gone.
The reality is today China views itself engaged in an economic war with the US. And, as one would expect, Beijing will follow the advice of Master Sun - the ancient Chinese military strategist Sun Tzu - to the letter. It will not fight two wars simultaneously. That means, once the red line is crossed, Beijing will react with lightening speed. And, it will act brutally and decisively to ensure that this war will not resurface at a critical time in future.
7
China will win this against Hong Kong. Why? Because the Red Army is made up of recruits who are 110% willing to lay down their lives for China. And there is currently no viable opposition within China to the aggressive nature of Chinese foreign and economic policy which is basically economic dominance within the region and because they are willing to have another Tianmen Square. There are so many Chinese, the Hong Kong radicals are essentially expendable. The Chinese Communist Party is practical to a fault. Practicalism is the guiding MO.
2
@Aspen
"the Hong Kong radicals are essentially expendable. "
Why is asking for basic human rights radical? Does asking for such rights make you expendable?
2
This is the direction out country is going in unless something changes in 2020, but right now I feel completely entitled do do whatever I want as looooooong as I can get away with it.
1
Communism is a weak form of government otherwise why suppress freedom of speech and internet. Nec minnit they'll be banning books. ( read, The Tiananmen papers)
3
Tiananmen II
The Chinese Communist Party, which controls China with a dictatorial grip, will do anything to remain in power.
Of course they will use troops to kill students and anyone who challenges their demands.
China can be broken economically and in other ways which the world will see.
Their own incredible greed and lust for domination is what will bring down the CCP as it did in the USSR.
3
Legally, Hong Kong IS part of China. Beijing will not allow Hong Kong to secede from China any more than Hawaii would be allowed to secede from the US. When the Confederacy did secede from the US, the two sides were reasonably equally matched in military power. Hong Kong has NO power at all. They will be crushed by the Chinese military. It is irresponsible to encourage people to fight when there is absolutely no chance of success. If the people of Hong Kong want autonomy, they will need to develop a position from which there is some possibility of achieving their goals. It's easy for Westerners to cheer on the Hong Kong protests; they will not suffer the consequences. Easy to spill the blood of others.
4
@ShenBowen it’s irresponsible for people to fight foe their rights???
3
@ShenBowen
So were the 13 colonies.
2
@ShenBowen
The question is whether China will honor the terms of the treaty that is signed or whether it will succumb to "might is right" tendencies of Uncle Xi.
It bulldozed over Tibet and Xinjiang but tell us - did this win hearts? really?
It is easier to get to that Tibet.
Every now and then I see a comment worth reposting, so that newer readers here will see it. This is from Tom Harrison:
"You know Americans, coming in just a matter of weeks is the biggest shopping day of the year, Black Friday. Just about everything we buy here is made in China.
Imagine if we, the shoppers, skipped Black Friday thereby telling both our billionaires and China that we have all had enough. I can make presents for Christmas and if I thought such an action might help people in Hong Kong along with U.S. workers like those at WalMart, then I'm onboard.
Marching wearing pink hats or yellow vests sounds great but if you want serious results just stay home and close your wallet."
15
@Steve Fankuchen
To add my own two cents to what Tom writes:
Neither Republicans nor Democrats currently have a foreign policy, and while we've come to expect that from Trump, it is seriously problematic that the Democratic Presidential candidates essentially have none either. This is much more dangerous than Trump's border absurdities.
In the multi-polar world of today where no issue can be reduced to a slogan, it is relevant that only Biden has foreign policy experience and has, at least in the past, articulated fairly detailed, thought-out views on specific foreign policy situations.
1
@Steve Fankuchen. You forgot to mention that Biden was always wrong. Even Obama didn’t pay any attention to him.
"“a humiliation of our country’s dignity.”"
What dignity is that?
6
The recent protests against the extradition bill all started peacefully and then turned violent and ugly later. There is now a consistent pattern in all the protest marches where a small minority of radical activists (from several hundred to a couple of thousand strong) hellbent on picking a fight with the police. These protesters/rioters use a range of weapons to attack the police and these include metal barriers, long metal poles, chemical agents including acid, brick/glass throwing and umbrellas. The police respond using tear gas, pepper spray, batons and rubber bullets.
The first red line that these rioters crossed was on July 1st when they stormed the legislative building and vandalised the inside. And to add insult to injury, they waved the union jack and the old British colonial flag inside the main debating chamber, while at the same time, defacing the HK emblem. Many Hongkongers like me were horrified and angered.
The other red line that Beijing considered most provocative is when they attacked and vandalised the Beijing liaison office last week. There seems to be no limit as to the extent of lawlessness these rioters are willing to go.
The police are heavily outnumbered, exhausted, demoralised, and feel totally unappreciated for upholding the rule of law. The protesters are demonising the police and have made threats against their families as well.
Now, people from both sides are getting beaten up. There is now total chaos and anarchy. Will the PLA be called?
2
@Peter Liu
And whom will the People's Liberation Army
actually liberate ?
11
@Peter Liu
The radicals are making a protest into a violent confrontation. In any state, they would be stopped by the police.
However, the Chinese government cannot tolerate the kinds of liberal democracy that are permitted in Hong Kong for long because it can lead to instability across the rest of the country over self government.
2
@Peter Liu
The protesters never used physical force to attack civilians or vandalize shops randomly. Their targets are the government and the police who has used excessive force. Flags and emblems are all symbols, non-living things.
Real rioters are the thugs who came out brazenly to attack civilians including protesters who were returning home, residents who had not even joined the protests, or simply passersby, and journalists, in public, right in front of everyone's eyes. The police turned a blind eye to that as if they were not even afraid of speculation that the government and the police collaborate with gangs. Actually, these are not rioters, they are terrorists. And all you care about are flags and emblems.
8
Political leader’s “leadership” is built on irrationality and paranoia, none of these people are servants, well — they’re self-serving.
The Chinese government is so obsessed with the U.S. (granted, the U.S. is equally as obsessed with them too) that they could rather kill their people than truly free their people.
They talk about America like it’s the boogeyman, this is lazy leadership, with weakness sprinkled on it *picture salt bae*.
The problem with the world is that we have dudes with diaphanous egos leading nations — hence democracy is a myth.
2
“People’s Liberation Army” farthing the complete control of China over its citizens. Double-speak at its finest.
7
Practical steps to take if the PLA moves on Hong Kong:
1. An immediate cessation of trade with China, and a halt to all transfer of technology.
2. A travel ban on all members of the Chinese Communist Party (about 70 million), with the sole exception of diplomats.
3. U.S. citizenship granted on demand to all longtime Hong Kong residents with no criminal record or ties to the Beijing regime.
4. An explicit guarantee of security cooperation with Taiwan.
5. An offer of military assistance, as needed, to China's neighbors in the South China Sea.
After Tiananmen, we chose to accommodate China's vicious dictatorship. We must not make that mistake a second time.
6
@John Corey
"3. U.S. citizenship granted on demand to all longtime Hong Kong residents with no criminal record or ties to the Beijing regime."
You really think that would play with the American people - or more specifically, the US electorate?
TBH, you all seem rather exercised about immigration at the moment.
5
@nolongeradoc
To be frank, I think that taking in Hong Kongers would be well accepted in the U.S., and seen as a gold mine by some, because of their wealth, skills, bilingualism and entrepeneurial culture.
I would further suggest that the U.K. reconsider the possibility of residency and work visas for BNO passport holders:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hongkong-extradition-britain/hong-kong-residents-with-uk-passports-seek-right-to-live-in-britain-idUSKCN1TT21N
China can never win as no Democratic nation reverts to Communism.
Lots of Chinese are brainwashed from school age to think communism is the only form of government otherwise why would the government put controls on the internet and censorship. Communist government knows communism is inferior otherwise they wouldn't feel threatened by freedom of speech and freedom of internet searching.
China can never, ever win as once their citizens study abroad they see the light and that democracy is a better way of life and what their government has been telling them is propaganda. The pursuit of truth will set the Chinese free, eventually and they'll revert to a democratic government.
8
China's utter disregard for its own legal commitments to respect Hong Kong's rights and democracy—the only reasons the UK gave the territory to China in the first place—is unacceptable. The United States should bring the full force of the international community to bear to make clear that China's attacks against Hong Kong's sovereignty will not be allowed.
5
@Eli Beckman That's funny. Can you picture Donald Trump leading anything, except fools? Leadership and integrity are qualities he does not possess.
We've already lost the region to China, you just haven't realized it yet, but you will.
I simply can't believe that the Chinese government would ever use force against its own people to quash their desire for democratic rule.
1
@Dave
What planet do you live on?
It is the only way they govern.
7
@Dave Google "Tiananmen" and see for yourself. Or, the "Great Leap Forward" and "Cultural Revolution." Lots of good times in China.
3
@Dave Thanks for the laugh ! It's an otherwise grim moment - China has announced, not hinted, that it will send troops into Hong Kong - so a little satire/snark goes a long way !
1
Unfortunately it looks like the PRC will impose martial law, or some version of it, on Hong Kong very soon. And the world will look on.
8
@Tom Yep, Trump won't say a word, nor Pompuseo.
2
@Tom The Republican Party kowtows to the Chinese Communists at every sickening turn. Nixon was wrong to engage these people.
Neither Republicans nor Democrats currently have a foreign policy, and while we've come to expect that from Trump, it is seriously problematic that the Democratic Presidential candidates essentially have none either. In the multi-polar world of today where no issue can be reduced to a slogan, it is relevant that only Biden has foreign policy experience and has, at least in the past, articulated fairly detailed, thought-out views on specific foreign policy situations.
3
Taiwan and Hong Kong have succeeded as free and democratic societies, despite constant intimidation from Beijing. Freedom is the very thing that the Chinese Communist Party fears, since they can maintain their own power, wealth, and elite status only through ongoing suppression of the rights of the majority.
11
@Grover19 Hong Kong has not succeeded as a free and democratic society. After more than 100 years as a British colony, where it most definitely was not a free and democratic society, it entered a transitional state until full mainland rule where it had some degree of democratic representation. This cannot be called a success given what is happening now, and the role of Hong Kong's own elites in stifling any moves towards a truly democratic society.
8
The HK government could, by Basic Law, call in the PLA for help. By now the HK police knows how to effectively crowd control the demonstrations but it has trouble handling peripheral events, typically late at night and removed from the main marches. These events are caused by radical elements and take a toll on the police. Basically the police is exhausted and needs help. PLA could come in and protect city assets for example, make sure roads stay open etc... It would also serve to deliver a chill to those radical elements that see the social unrest as a way to overthrow the legitimate government of the SAR. Protesters have gone too far way beyond the exercise of free speech. They want to bring down the government of HK in the hope that they could summon external powers such as the US or Britain to intervene. It's futile. HK is China. HKers may think of themselves as British colonials and spent their life slandering China only to realize that is what their future is, not London or California. Protesters have been heard. It's no longer about any immigration bill, that's long dead. It's about them seeking to overthrow the government. Beijing has every right to insure this goes nowhere. It's their duty. If HK government asks for the PLA to come in to help, they should agree and have a stabilizing presence freeing the local police to do police work and crowd control. The protesters are running an insurrection, not democracy. There is a big difference....
2
the people of HK have a distinct territory, language and culture. the UN guarantees their rights to self determination the PRC much less the PLA can not suppress this.
2
Who ever doubted that the Chinese tiger would unsheathe its claws on the people of Hong Kong? Communist China is as repressive as ever, it's pretensions to freedom an illusion.
25
These protests have only one sole purpose at the very beginning: it is to draw out the PLA to commit " crime against humanity " so to invite international condemnations and thereby laying the path for uK to find its way back to HK and future war against China.
1
China admits in its own strategy paper the PLA is weak. Yet it’s already throwing its weight around quite aggressively in S. China Sea and elsewhere.
How will they behave after they have completed their militarization and modernization program? I think the writing is on the wall.
The western democracies should give Taiwan guarantees now that it won’t be abandoned to Chinese aggression. We should nip that bud before it grows any further. Taiwan is likely to be one of the first frontlines in any coming confrontation between the democracies and an authoritarian/totalitarian axis led by Beijing. The Taiwanese deserve our support.
8
Adamantly agree. Taiwan is a wonderful country and has risen economically and democratically despite influence, intimidation and harassment from Beijing. There are in fact TWO China's. One is free, the other is a fascist totalitarian hegemony.
11
I want to see how all the right wing Republicans who backed Taiwan and Hong Kong for years excuse Trump when he does nothing after Chinas crackdown. They hate NATO, hate free Trade, love tariffs, love Russia and really love huge deficits now.
4
The six thousand Chinese troops in Hong Kong aren't enough to quell protests that go into the millions. To put the protests down and impose martial law would likely take tens of thousands of troops. That would take a de facto invasion from the mainland.
To say that an invasion would be a disaster for both Hong Kong and China is an understatement. The economic disruption would be massive and would last for an indeterminate time, depending on the resistance of the Hong Kong people. China may be able to declare martial law but they can't make the people of the territory work and no work in HK would have large ripple effects throughout the Chinese economy.
On top of this would be the horrid optics the rest of the world would witness. Many countries are questioning whether China is willing to be a good global citizen. This would strongly answer that question and push already leery countries to look elsewhere for their business and strategic ties.
I wouldn't bet on attempts by China to militarily put the protests in Hong Kong down. The price to be paid for such actions would be incredibly high for China and for President Xi's government.
8
The youth of China are forward thinking and want their children to have a future free from communist rule.
Our government is forward thinking and people from Hong Kong and Australians are from a handful of nations allowed to buy second hand property in New Zealand. It's sad that their quasi democracy will be quashed and all their highly skilled people will flee to secular democracies like NZ. Our gain is Chinas loss.
4
@CK: The youth of China in contrast to the youth of Hong Kong and their families are separate demographies. The Hong Kong youth, their parents, and very likely their grandparents as well have grown up with and understand British (i.e., Western) rule of law. That may or may not be within the experience and practical understanding of the youth of China.
2
China is an authoritarian country that has chosen to become a global adversary of the U.S.
But...
Hong Kong is still part of China. They have had there troop garrisoned there for two decades. If they choose, they can use force to impose "order". It's their sovereign right.
The U.S. response should be to immediately create 100-200K special visas for Hong Kong residents with advanced degrees and at least $100K. Europe and Japan should do the same. Hong Kong's greatest treasure is its human resource pool - we should get as much of this as we can while we can.
7
i don't think China chooses to be an " adversary " of anyone.
@John Visa for two million sounds more reasonable.
If China chooses this path, they’ll get a lesson in courage and the worst PR they could imagine.
5
PRC troops quashing protests in HK? That prospect seems unlikely to work, if calming the situation is a goal.
3
I bet those living in Hong Kong were wishing it was still controlled by the UK.
8
@Renee Not really. I am not Hong Kong. Who wants to be colonized by another country and by another ethnic group of people.
2
@Chan HK is effectively colonized by China. Also, query to what extent HK-ers should be lumped into the same ethnic group as the Mainland Chinese. HK-ers speak a different official language, writes traditional (and not simplified) Chinese, and grew up with different cultural norms and references. HK was. never part of the People’s Republic of China prior to getting handed over in 1997.
6
@Chan
You say that like HKers and mainlanders are the same. We're not. We have our own language and culture. We have very different histories, and I pray we will also have different destinies.
6
That would be an invasion, and China would never leave.
China is not a friendly country, it’s an adversary both economically and militarily. One that poses a far greater danger than either Russia or Iran. Let’s stop pretending it’s not.
10
Does the freedom of protest in HK include freedom to attack police officers, sabotage public office building? if protesters here spray-painted Congress building in DC, would you say the same?
This is about law and order.
2
@E Wang
who's law
who's order
We did ..in 1776 (it worked out pretty well)..
its it's time for these Hong Kongers to become the new revolutionaries....with beijing being the counter revolutionaries.
4
@E Wang I am from Hong Kong and you are 100% right! There is a silent majority who disapprove of these street thugs' actions in the name of seeking democracy.
2
@wfkinnc Except in 1776 the revolutionaries also had access to their own supply of arms and a sizable standing army to go against the "counter-revolutionaries". How exactly would these HK protesters gain access to volumes of arms and training to use the arms, never mind an army to wield it all?
3
Where is the great defender of human freedom and dignity on this? Oh, right. President Trump finds the whole subject boring, one supposes.
3
You know Americans, coming in just a matter of weeks is the biggest shopping day of the year, Black Friday. Just about everything we buy here is made in China.
Imagine if we, the shoppers, skipped Black Friday thereby telling both our billionaires and China that we have all had enough.
I can make presents for Christmas and if I thought such an action might help people in Hong Kong along with U.S. workers like those at WalMart, then I'm onboard.
Marching wearing pink hats or yellow vests sounds great but if you want serious results just stay home and close your wallet.
13
Xi has some trouble a brewin' in olde Hong Kong. Could spread to Bejing?
2
@HoodooVoodooBlood Not likely. You can't even breathe in Beijing, let alone go out and protest.
2
It is sometimes bewildering to see protests like the ones in Hong Kong. The protesters are themselves Chinese and should be attuned to the PRC's sensibilities. It should also be clear to them that any support they receive from leaders in the West is hot air. No-one is going to intervene or interfere on their behalf.
Geopolitically, they and HK are quite insignificant and any business opportunity that exists does so with the approval of Beijing and the Xi government. Even the Taiwanese should be aware of this. The sale of $2.2 billion worth of military material is, at the end of the day, a commercial transaction.
It would be beyond naive to suppose that the US would go to war over this, even if the PLA moves in and dismantles the protests by force. If any proof is needed, just look at the way in which the Khashoggi atrocity has faded away and the eagerness with which business with Saudi Arabia has resumed.
2
@Rudy Flameng
Ethnicity and culture are not the same. Do you think East and West Germans are the same, since they are both German?
2
@tsingwun: N and S Koreans? N and S Vietnamese? N(Union) and S(Confederate) Americans? Do you think the differences and separation are the result of geopolitics or naturally occur?
Maybe these protesters would do better by stopping their violent tactics and instead opting for NON-violent tactics? Economic methods may be much more effective at bringing Peking to its knees, for example...?
1
This is exactly what happened to Tibet. Originally promised autonomy (in a signed treaty), Tibet was invaded by Mao who then perpetrated ethnic cleansing on an unimaginable scale, razing thousand years -old monasteries.
Concentration camps in Xinjiang.
China, a police state, is about to become a military dictatorship. And odds are that everyone will be mum, no sanctions from the EU, Japan or USA.
7
It’s time for Americans to accept that the age of US global hegemony is waning - along with our democracy. Can you really blame China, a rising world power, for wanting to expand their sphere of influence in the ASIAN pacific and the South CHINA sea?
And with President Stupid and his gang of foreign policy incompetents in charge we have very little leverage over the calculated intelligence and competency of Chinese leaders. They are playing the long game. Our ‘leadership’ doesn’t even know how to play a game for half an hour.
5
This is ridiculous, and dangerous, and appalling.
I don't need a lecture on how China "owns" Hong Kong. I know. I get it. And that's the problem, right there.
Hong Kong does not want to be "owned" by a tyrant and a Communist nation.
But doesn't China have enough to do?
Don't they have enough people, enough business?
Why bother here, really?
They want to start WW III?
They want to kill the people of Hong Kong? Surely they know how that will look on the world stage?
They can't compromise here, give a little?
Hong Kong should be owned by no one but the people of Hong Kong.
China needs to stay out.
11
Sure the world merely tsked tsked when protesters were massacred in Tiananmen Square but when Hong Kong ceases to appear as a free society, ruled by law rather than violence, all the expat bankers will flee the city.
3
Yeah, China is definitely going to hand Trump a deal.....
1
I am no China expert but the centuries of Chinese civilization speaks of a hierarchy that has been reinforced for centuries.
I would guess China may be looking at anyway out that doesn't involve a working class army confronting an educated and privileged elite.
This is not Kent State. This is a challenge to the basic conservatism of a centuries old social contract. China is not Europe.
5
Am I the only one to suspect that the criminal gangs largely responsible for the recent (and totally unnecessary) violent escalation in Hong Kong were being paid by the Beijing government to destabilize the situation?
It would be the typical intervene-and-conquer strategy played so many times by authoritarian regimes in the past, where a convenient pretext is used to justify an armed invasion, followed by martial law, repression and regime change.
Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968, Afghanistan 1979, Iraq 2003, Crimea 2016 to name a few... the Chinese are just about to do what the Russians and Americans have been doing for decades.
8
That is Beijing's go-to tactic. They use rent-a-thugs in Taiwan and Australia to beat up pro-democracy anti-communist demonstrators. Read "Silent Invasion" by Clive Hamilton. They assaulted Australian citizens watching a demonstration by pro-Tibetans. Police could not stop the assaults.
6
HK is an example of the turmoil that comes from a repressive, autocratic regime trying to enslave the free people of Hong Kong.
People of Hong Kong: You hold nothing less than the fate of humanity in your hands. China wants you to believe you are weak, but you are strong. The world stays silent as China detains millions of Uighurs, but Hong Kong is different. Show the world what China is.
27
The CCP is looking for any excuse to obliterated dissent and make Hong Kong another obedient toady in their emerging empire. This is in no way different from feudal Chinese warlords demanding tribute from conquered lands. An independent Hong Kong is effectively dead, and along with it the island's rich culture and dynamism.
10
@CP Wrong. Hong Kong will survive and thrive. As a whole, China will surely continue to do very well
No one is above the party and its grip on power. That's the reality in China, and that is why China will always be weak: because beneath all the platitudes the basic truth is that the regime is based on fear.
19
It's just a matter of time until Beijing sends in the Army to crush dissent in Hong Kong. A wise American President would start preparing his response. However, Trump is President.
12
I don't have a view of the 69 page documents. But China threatening to deploy the army to quell protests is not that different from American states calling in the national guard against protesters. For example, the 1970 Kent State shootings are an ugly reminder when unarmed protesters were shot in America.
Not saying any of this is good or moral. Just saying peaceful demonstrations have their limits. Unless bloodspill is desired, then just aim for what is realistically achievable in the here and now. And live to strive for change another day.
4
@William Fang Agreed except Hongkong is not part of mainland China yet.
1
As events unfold in Hong Kong, Donald Trump's praise for the "very restrained" reaction of Xi and his lack of criticism for the horrific violence against peaceful citizens could be prologue to what lies in store for America is Trump is impeached or lose in 2020. The Trump camp has already stated that there would be unprecedented domestic violence if Trump is impeached and Trump himself has publicly stated that he "has the military and the police" on his side. Is Xi showing the way for the "very restrained" policies Trump will adopt in order to stay in office?
5
The populace of HK is not armed, too bad that is a big difference between many other countries who are being overrun by despots. Here in the US we are armed to the tee, the powers that be should remember this.
6
Neither Republicans nor Democrats currently have a foreign policy, and while we've come to expect that from Trump, it is seriously problematic that the Democratic Presidential candidates essentially have none either. In the multi-polar world of today, it is relevant that only Biden has foreign policy experience and has, at least in the past, articulated fairly detailed, thought-out views on specific foreign policy situations.
8
I'm curious what would the U.S do if occupied wall street or BLM movement march on to congress or white house graffiti and damage the building? you can protest but getting violent is not the best way to have your voice hear.
3
The Chinese Communist Party since it's inception has a expansionist world view. Just look how they subjugated Tibet and just recently the South China Sea; all based on fake historical claims. If they invade Taiwan they will not stop there. That's why as much as I abhor how much we spend on our military, I'm thankful we have such a strong navy keeping China's ambitions in check.
21
Historical view is interesting. How about native indian tribes' view on the American land?
5
@Kun Or native Taiwanese' view on 'reuinifcation' with China, or on Han Chinese in general, for that matter? "Whataboutism" is a silly game.
2
@Ed China makes noise in the south when the real target will be north. By the time most forested areas of Russian far east are clear cut and exported to China for $2.00 a acre. Russia will be unable to sustain a large nuclear response in the face of Chinese military modernization. The Russian far east will be fed to the Chinese Dragon by the West. Just as happened when Imperial Russia attempted to repatriate Constantinople from the invaders who conquered it, the Ottoman Caliphate.
If Beijing attacks Hong Kong, it will be the end of the Communist Party in China.
(The notion of One Great China, Risen will be decimated.)
2
@Marty O'Toole
Read what was actually said... carefully.
There was no talk of invasion. Hong Kong is part of China and has been for a generation.
What WAS SAID is that "if invited" China would send forces into Hong Kong to help deal with the ongoing violence by some protesters.
I doubt it will come to that though.. because I doubt Hong Kong officials will request help from mainland China and I see this more as a public warning to protesters to stay within the law as they protest.
1
In 1997 many thought communist china would change. it continues to be the most brutal communist dictatorship.
19
@sebastian
Every communist nation is a dictatorship.
2
Hong Kong will lose, no question.
save yourself, people, for your love ones.
3
How freedom invariably ends.
1
You saw this coming. Hong Kong is a dead democracy walkin'. It's gone. Hold the line somewhere else.
Few militant idealistic bad apples.. are ruining the legitimate cause of millions... seriously as if those thugs who ransacked public properties.. did they imagine that China will relinquish its sovereignty over Hong Kong?
what was funny yesterday..that when those thugs who attacked the police for weeks.. were attacked by another bunch of thugs.. they called for the same police (whom they've attacked earlier) for help.🙄
when u keep it protest peaceful and civilized.. you will disarm the CCP. But now those few bad apples are giving CCP the justification to crack down. The HK police was mostly civilized and those thugs attacked them plus they destroyed public property.
3
EU and Putin are the past, the former a debt-ridden union on its way to social-fiscal suicide, the latter an erstwhile super-power looking for its place in the modern world of high-tech economies.
The most pressing issue we face as a nation is China's military, and those who control it, no question, and no question, the People's Liberation Army is a warning to both Koreas and Japan.
China is making it clear that Asia is their sphere and that includes Taiwan and the South China Sea.
Stay tuned, more to come.
6
Hong Kong is far more than just a tiny appendage to China. Its open society and British-derived legal system make it an exceedingly attractive business center. Both Chinese and English-speaking, it is a locus where China can freely meet and interact with the outside world. About one-seventh of the entire Chinese economy is in the environs of Hong Kong. A Tienanmen-style attack on the Hong Kong protesters would be devastating not only for Hong Kong but for all of China. It would be a major shock that could bring down the entire world economy.
34
@Caleb
Largely past tense now though. Shanghai is quickly unseating Hong Kong as the business and investment gateway to China.
1
"it an exceedingly attractive business center" for the business of mainland China! Without mainland China, center to what?
@Caleb What I heard before and my own calculation confirms that Hong Kong only represents about 3% of China's economy (363 billion / 12 trillion in 2018). The financial impact is sizable but may not be as big as you might think. The other implications, of course, cannot be ignored.
2
HK is yet another example of artificial divisions created by colonial powers resulting in modern day turmoil.
China is in a difficult position. They must restore order and this will likely require a show of force. They must balance showing and using force carefully.
9
What we are witnessing here is the slow drip-drip-drip of a takeover. This happens whenever there isn't a clear line of embarkation drawn in the ideological sands. In this case, it's the diplomatic meaning of 'autonomy' in the hearts and minds of Hong Kong. The whole thing is right out of the pages of Sun Tzu in The Art of War (Strategy).
As far as I know there really isn't a name for these kinds of anaconda-like takeovers. In the nuclear arms race it's called salami-slicing. In business it's sometimes called a starfish maneuver (the starfish exerts a small about of pressure to the mouth of an oyster, which eventually gives up by opening its mouth, and is devoured by the starfish). There are many metaphors that can be borrowed from the history of political torture (which are always the slowest and most painful of all torture methods).
Over the past month we've seen the same thing in business, with the attempt by Microsoft to take over OpenAI, and by Broadcom to take over Symantec. Both of these cases involve the meaning of an ideological line drawn in the sand.
4
@W It boggles the mind that this is even necessary since, you know, Hong Kong was stolen from China by the world's most violent imperialist oppressor, Great Britain.
4
This day had to come. "One country two systems" was unworkable from the start. Expecting the Chinese would back down on Hong Kong was just so much magical thinking.
6
Man’s inhumanity to man...fueled by the desire for money and power. Freedom vs. authoritarian subjugation. If you don’t have freedom, in the basic sense our Founders envisioned, you don’t have life....just an existence. If I suddenly woke up as a citizen in China, the very first feeling I would have is.....being watched.
8
@Tug - lol, I live in the U.S. and am watched everywhere. The convenience store in my area has a large monitor over the country streaming four different camera views inside so you can look up and see your every move is recorded. We have cameras throughout my apartment building along with an FOB key entry telling my landlady my comings and goings and who I bring home.
My phone (if I turn it on) tells Android 14 times per minute where I am and can even turn on the mic and listen.
China is trying to catch up to the U.S. in surveillance.
6
@tom harrison. Tom, the type of commercial and security surveillance in the US is different...or it should be. If you participated in, say, a Trump protest, with face recognition analyzing every protestor, would you suddenly want your Social Credit System score to plummet, inhibiting your ability to get a loan, or apartment, or anything else? There is a difference between dystopian Big Brother surveillance and what happens here, at least so far.
1
China is a brutal dictatorship. Sometimes I have to wonder about Americans who chose to do business with them, and the moral trade off we all make when buying Chinese made products. Greed trumps moral values, obviously. But given that so many products are made there, we are all more or less held hostage by the capitalists profiting from the dictatorship.
45
They may as well go ahead and rename Hong Kong, the Hong Kong the world knew and loved is now no more. One more step in the plan completed. After they put down the protesters permanently the place can become the obedient headquarters the want.
5
China threatening involvement does not have any basis if protests can be kept peaceful. That being said, the control hungry Chinese government can choose to quell a protest, and citizens of Taiwan need to start finding other ways of protesting the government where citizens are not "sitting ducks" for the military. Peaceful resistance has some historical validity.
6
Echoes of Tiananmen Square are here. The Chinese leadership does not want communism to lose in the capitalist-communist conflict in its country. At some point the two ideologies will no longer be able to co-exist peacefully. The Hong Kong protests are another harbinger of what the future will bring. Chinese military force will quell the problem in Hong Kong for now but it will be at a very, very heavy cost. And it will only worsen the situation when the next conflict arises. Successive Chinese generations will want more freedoms and liberties and this can is being kicked down the road.
15
@Howard Herman I don’t think this is a capitalist/communist question. Every indication is that the protestors are unhappy with squalid living conditions in Hong Kong. It’s about freedom and the power of the people to determine their own destiny along with a fair distribution of the fruits of their labor. As such, it is as much an indictment of capitalism as anything else. A system, either capitalist or socialist, that lacks freedom and human rights, is unstable.
2
You clearly know nothing about Hong Kong but are able to parrot the US leftist slogans about the current situation somehow being a "housing" issue made worse by capitalism. This is an authoratarian dictatorship "solution" to a human rights issue. Given their own way, this is the sort of "solution" the extreme left will bring to the US for their many pet projects that they too claim are "caused" by capitalism.
The population density of HK (3X New York) makes the wealth gap impossible to hide. It slaps the faces of the have-nots every day. Tens of thousands of low income people live in stacked plywood coffins or cages that cost $200 USD/month. These are pest infested fire traps. The wealthy live in penthouse suites with views of the harbor. That must be a factor in the protests.
8
Taiwan is the only democracy in the Chinese-speakong world that is still standing. Taiwan must be protected at all cost - without it China will threaten the entire Asia Pacific and ultimately the Pacific US seaboard. This is a matter of, do we want to fight Chinese navy in the Taiwan Strait or do you want to fight them in Hawaii?
129
Agreed.
4
@Uneasy
That would be a good question to ask at the Democratic debates next week.
3
@Uneasy This is just a bunch of warmongering rhetoric. Fight them in Hawaii? Threaten the US Pacific seaboard?
Cmon.
4
Rubber bullets and tear gas now, real bullets and tanks next.
15
It is fine to have real bullets and tanks from US on other people' land; but it is not acceptable for China to have bullets and tanks on its on land. In a nutshell, US is the only one that can do the "right" thing! Only power talks, not democracy——comparing the number of people in China and US.
1
The misunderstood bully.
If asked, they will intervene. And Taiwan is the country out of line for reacting negatively to China's walking away from the promises it made to HK.
Worth remembering, Taiwan was under Japanese control from ~1900 til the end of the war in 1945. And it has been independent of the communists since that American liberation.
That's 120 years.
11
Taiwan has NEVER been governed by the CCP. Not once, ever.
20
@Dred
Yes, the beacon of hope for Chinese freedom and democracy.
I lived in and studied Chinese in Taiwan. Later, I had the misfortune to study on the mainland.
What a contrast.
Taiwan is upbeat, fun, clean, the people well educated. Environment respected ( in Taipei the public parks had ostomy bathrooms; never saw that anywhere else).
Mainland China, financially upbeat- not really happy, depressing, filthy ( the food is so contaminated that many people buy food via Hong Kong if they can afford it). The people I met totally brainwashed . One PhD candidate in engineering ( she was told what to study) told me that " Mao is our Jesus, our god."
6
And just like in Tibet, no one will do anything about it. Except, perhaps, quietly start doing more business with Korea and Vietnam, and less business with China.
30
Bad news for everybody.
The Communist Party rules and it’s not by the consent of the governed, who by Marxist Leninist Maoist reasoning are basically corrupted by society from birth to be counter revolutionaries, but in service of history and the yet to be revealed soviet human variety of people. Liberal democracy is anathema and must be eliminated before the will of history is fulfilled. The Red Army is going to restore the authority of the Chinese regime.
But as sad as that is, it’s the shifting focus of China from achieving wealth to achieving military power that should concern everyone. It’s what all administrations since Nixon’s have been trying to discourage by establishing trade and global economic involvement by China.
4
Perhaps corporations will now realize that xi China wants to Crimea up Hong Kong and Taiwan to impose on them the same unchecked tyranny as they impose on over a billion people, and finally decide to employ here at home instead of enriching that tyranny by using xi's corporate-authoritarian slave labor, and to sell covertly and directly to the Chinese people instead of through its official regime-enriching, censored, taxed channels. Perhaps people will also decide to stop being "consumers" and choose higher-quality, non-creepy goods from here instead of xi China.
Or perhaps people will just pay them to keep being the same old unchecked, unregulated, indifferent US corporations, and act in their own interest at humanity's defense.
We already know which side of history corporations will take, and how wrong that side is. Will we just help them do that?
One thing's certain: neither the loser nor the vile TPP could, would, or ever intended to solve that. Both have entirely orthogonal corporate interests of their own in mind, so any hope of stopping xi China's rampage on human rights and sovereignty requires diligent detective and boycott work of our own—and in real life, as hashtaggery would only help both xi China and bigoted Dorsey Twitter.
7
Nobody but the Chinese themselves can change their government. But for four decades China has avoided actions which might precipitate war in favor of becoming wealthy from international trade and diplomacy to prevent itself from being forced into military actions to defend it’s interests. That seems to be changing, now. The regime is calculating that it now needs military superiority to endure.
2
After Taiwan, the Chinese Communist Party will want to ‘reunify’ Chinatowns in San Francisco, Lower Manhattan, Los Angeles, the Asian Quarter in Paris, Manila, Toronto, Vancouver, and Melbourne. After all, they’re called China’s towns, they’ll assert, some as early as 1594 (Manila) and 1848 (San Francisco).
21
@Jake Let’s not let paranoia get the better of us. But please, consider the implications of the Belt and Road. Also consider the serious disadvantage the US has by having almost no control over the private sector levers of power as opposed to the Chinese government’s total control, and their ability to leverage that in support of their strategic objectives. The long term presents challenges. To the administration’s credit, repatriating manufacturing is critical and is happening. In criticism, turning our backs on our allies is a critical error.
1
@Jake
Absurd... extremely absurd.
And people wonder why Americans appear so foolish to other nations.
2
Chinese tanks will roll over democracy in Hong Kong.
Freedom of thought will be squashed there, same as Tienanmen square.
Still, Mr Trump encourages business to move to China with favorable tax breaks. And phony tariffs increasing profit for all, at the expense of the democracy.
15
The rise of China as the largest economy in the world underscores just how important it is that we maintain strong diplomatic ties to our allies. It may overtake the US as the preeminent superpower, but it cannot beat a multilateral coalition of the US, the EU, Japan, South Korea, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Mexico, and our partners in Latin America. Diplomacy and partnership with our allies is more important now than ever. This was the entire basis of TPP, and why Trump, the Republicans and every other politician that railed against it are fools. The countries that are built on the post WW2 western liberal order that has worked so well - namely multiethnic democracy and free markets - need to work together, otherwise China will soon be the one making the decisions that shape the world.
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@Ben,
I entirely agree with your assessment. We need to stick with our liberal allies. TPP would have been a significant way to align interests with friends, apply pressure on China, increase the influence of the US in Asia, and set a path towards increased opportunity for millions, including our own citizenry. It was incredibly short sighted to pull out of TPP. I would add that China is not the larges economy in the world. We are. It's a distant second. However, with our leadership, perhaps the day which China's economic power overtakes ours has been hastened.
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China is the greatest threat to global security because of their size and economic leverage. They also have proven to be durably authoritarian, aggressive, and dishonest.
We need to stop being distracted by North Korea, Russia, Iran, etc. and think about how we will defeat China in the long term. As much as our business leaders like to invest in China, we really need to consider other options.
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@d Isn't it too late for that already?
@Vaz Dubey Better late than never
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@d
China is THE enemy of the entire civilized world.
They are like a bull in a "china" shop.
PS- All the china in the shop is made by them, too.
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No surprises here. Self determination is not in China’s game plan, especially when Hong Kong, an old British protectorate, is right on the Chinese mainland. China will play their cards carefully and they will win. Only a matter of time.
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This reminds me of that great "The G20 became the G19" statement by the Australian reported who talked about how Trump has pressed fast forward on the decline of the United States as a global leader and that " He will cede that power to China and Russia. Two authoritarian states that will forge a very different set of rules for the 21st century. Some will cheer the decline of America, but I think we will miss it when it’s gone..."
China now knows that the U.S. will not stand in the way of their authoritarian dictatorship and the way it treats its people. Other nations will sadly follow.
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China treatens a Tianamin Square south for Hong Kong. When will the world learn? China had this planned since 1999. They are very patient and the West is too short term in thinking. I predict Hong Kong will fail and get absorbed into greater China. That's the party's plan along.
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@Roy Hill Hong Kong was part of China, before, you know, it was colonized by a Western Imperalist power. This seems to be lost on every single white person I know (for obvious reasons).
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@Roy Hill --
@Roy Hill -- "China had this planned since 1999. "
More accurately, the CIA/NED has planned the campaigns and financed the individuals leading the various uprisings in Hong Kong.
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@Roy Hill -- "China had this planned since 1999. "
More accurately, the CIA/NED has planned the campaigns and financed the individuals leading the various uprisings in Hong Kong.
When we see the troops stationed far away from Beijing trucked in, we can count on a high body count. Can our satellites tell when large holes are being bulldozed in preparation for a hasty removal of all evidence?
Now remember - not only is Google very excited about helping China control its people and cleansing all evidence of massacres from the internet, but Hollywood filmmakers agree to remove all evidence of Taiwan and South Korea from a movie after a single phone call.
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Eighty-five percent of Taiwan's 24 million people reject China's 'one country, two systems' concept and instead embrace independence, democracy and autonomy from Beijing. It has witnessed Tibet and Hong Kong under Beijing's control and distrusts China's promises and assurances. China is indeed an evil malign state actor.
Beijing disguises its intent to annex Taiwan as 'reunification'. The reality is that Communist China has never ruled Taiwan, not for one day. If it has never ruled Taiwan, been united with Taiwan, 'reunification' is nonsense. It once disavowed Taiwan to the West and Japan, asserting it had no control over the independent pirates and bandits in Taiwan (Qing).
Taiwan's people will elect or re-elect a president in January 2020.
Communist China has promoted and is advancing its own preferred candidates that will bow to Beijing as does Hong Kong's Carrie Lam. Their opponent, Madam President Tsai is firmly democratic and resists China's attempts to force Taiwan to its knees. It is one of the most important elections in Taiwan's democratic history. Communist China is intent on influencing, interfering and obstructing Taiwan's democracy. It says if they are not welcomed, they will invade Taiwan by force.
If China invades Taiwan, there will likely be tens of thousands of American civilians killed.
It is on us to defend the Taiwanese in their pursuit of freedom. If we do not, there will be severe global consequences.
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@Orange County Voice
You and I wish but China knows that the Taiwanese, like Czechoslovakia and other nations against the Nazis, will have to fight by themselves.
Treaties will not be honored if it means American deaths.
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Many Caucasian Americans and Taiwanese-Americans would fight and die defending Taiwan. I would. I am Caucasian. I have many wonderful friends in Taiwan. We are family.
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China's dictatorship, true to form, is adamant in not allowing freedom of speech nor action, thwarting the imagination and basic freedoms that he takes for granted for himself and his elites, hypocrisy in action. Though no safe room for comparison, we have in the U.S. an unhinged president ready and willing to attack verbally any and all that dare use constructive criticism (essential in any democracy worth it's name), a reminder that fascism is rearing it's ugly face, authoritarianism not too dissimilar to world's despotic nations' behavior.
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Looks like it wasn’t such a smart move for the US to hire gangs of people to beat up protesters and try to spread this false flag as bad press about the Hong Kong government. Now China is into their game. Well, I guess that’s one more example of a foreign policy misadventure.
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It's only one country and one system when only one side has tanks and is ready to use them to keep the everybody in line. The totalitarians show their true colors again. Trump doesn't do much right, but beating up on the last commies is one of them.
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@Al
Armored vehicles and other lethal weapons systems have been deployed to stop American protests very frequently.
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@Marcus. I recall a right winger running over a protestor recently who is in jail for life. Can't recall US tanks doing that.
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The People of Hong Kong want and Deserve to Elect there Leaders....and they are NOT ALONE in that Desire!
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