I am always amused to read the mostly male comments to ANY NYT article about US women’s soccer pay inequities. Typical USA toxic male responses. Quite predictable. Guys, you are becoming caricatures of yourselves.
4
@Skyla Ewing Then make a cogent, logical, rational case for why women -- who aren't as good as men and play much weaker competition -- should get paid the same. Remember, the women get a salary -- men only get paid if they win. They're taking leave from their highly compensated professional soccer jobs to play for the USA, whereas the women's pro league here is subsidized and the pay avgs 50k a year -- why is that? No audience.
3
Real equality would have men and women competing with and against each other on the same level playing field. There would be no exclusively women's sports. Be careful what you wish for.
5
Why does this bother people so much? Why is the idea of women asking for more money sending so many people, mostly men, into such a panic? Why is it when women ask for more suddenly there’s men bellowing that men are better than women, the manly stats are rolled out, the accusations that boys can beat these women and so on? Why is this a male vs female issue at all? It really can’t be about the money because who cares? It is not coming out of our pockets. And oh, the Title 9 resentments! It seems many readers feel it is all Title 9’s fault for allowing young girls to grow up playing sports and in turn date to dream and ask for more. Reading these comments, seeing these resentments, sensing the anger makes me realize how we are not that far away from 1950s and how many men must yearn to somehow find away to keep uppity women, and probably even worse, those Lesbians, from getting what they want and dare to ask for. Breathe. Celebrate a World Cup win. These women are not trying to take anything away from you, why not lift them up, and in turn lift up your sisters, mothers, daughters, all the women around you? It can only be a plus in this world. Is the USA so cracked, so mistrustful of the other, that we can not simply take a moment and celebrate, and let these women simply try to negotiate their salaries?
11
@Beth Simon I don't see any hostility. This would be pretty much a non issue if Megan Rapinoe hadn't acted out and disrespected our country while representing it. And of course the leftist blather about equal pay for equal work.
I have no problem if the women can negotiate a better deal. I don't think they have a great case but if they can do it, more power to them. However, what is offensive is that so many on the left trot out this equal pay for equal work nonsense -- and attempt to make this an example of women doing the same work as men but not getting paid for it. First, the "women don't get paid the same as men for the same work" is a leftist canard. I've been involved in analyzing compensation data and there is no support for the notion that women don't get paid equally once you control for relevant comp determining factors. But the left keeps repeating this tired and untrue "fact" like robots.
I found a few of the women's games interesting, but the skill level isn't the same as the men's. Not even close. Not a single woman on the US Women's team could make a professional male team. And the competition they face in these world cups is weak. But many take the women's winning as an excuse to attack the men's team. Why?
What has happened is the left - and some militant women on our soccer team -- have inappropriately politicized the issue. I'm glad they won, but beyond that? And their poor behavior when playing Thailand was offensive.
6
I'm happy the women are organizing and fighting for what they they deserve. I sincerely wish them good luck in the fight.
I am curious though, in a sport like Gymnastics where women are naturally more talented and more watched, should they have to share their revenues with the men? Should Simone Biles be compelled to share her sponsorship money with the men's team in the sake of equality?
3
Hurray hurray hurray. Let's celebrate the women who won the Women's world cup.
Of course, the competition was pretty weak (has been since they started the WWC) and nothing at all compared to what the men face, but they won. Hurray. It's not men's soccer of course, it's a different sport. But hurray. We won won won.
Thank heavens for Title IX. Now we have a team that can beat up on all the women's teams in the world, because for the most part, the ROW could care less about women's soccer.
But hurray.
4
The US women's team is a non profit ie specifically (although clearly only nominally) a non commercial entity. A tax dodge of sorts.
So nominally the team exists to promote soccer. Have they succeeded? Not yet. We'll see. Que sera sera. Just like the last 3 cup wins. Which basically invalidates all the arguments made by both sides about revenues.
According to the team's own mission, it is an unproven non performer to this day.
See you in 4 years for more "yada yada"
2
Professional sports operate in a commercial marketplace. In an ideal world, equity would prevail and all genders would be paid the same. In the real world, alas, reality prevails. Until the market for women's soccer rivals that for men's, equal payments for women cannot be supported commercially.
1
@enkay
The US women's team is a non profit ie specifically (nominally) non commercial. The team exists to promote soccer. Have they succeeded? Not yet. We'll see. Que sera sera. Just like the last 3 cup wins.
Which basically invalidates all the arguments made by both sides about revenues.
According to the team's own mission, it is an unproven non performer to this day.
See you in 4 years for more "yada yada"
2
US Soccer heavily subsidizes women's professional soccer. Without the support of US Soccer there is no pro league for women. Those $100,000 minimum salaries disappear. The men are paid by their clubs and only get paid by US Soccer when are on national team duty, and of course there are performance-based bonuses, which the women also can earn. Your editorial has its heart in the right place, but you didn't do a good job of explaining the subtle differences that make this discussion more complicated that you present it to be. The Times needs to do better.
4
I’m sorry but woman’s soccer in minor league soccer.
They do not deserve the same pay as the top players or teams because they are not.
If US Soccer wants to invest money earned from the minor leagues to promote soccer, it makes entire sense to promote your brand by promoting the best of your brand.
I believe in the same pay for the same job, except woman’s soccer is not the same as the much better men’s team.
Should all soccer playing women, regardless of quality & skill be paid the same? They’re doing the same job.
Same question for men’s lesser leagues.
Please read this opinion without assuming I have issues with women, I do not. Without emotion look at the logic.
How about an equal money tourneyment between the superior men players and the woman’s minor leagues?
If you’re going to make a case for equal money you’ve got to provide equal something. More money, probably, but don’t make comparisons out of your league.
2
@Ken Wall-one huge difference-gender. biologically, physical strength, etc are just not the same. Women can play the game and can be quite good. There are some exceptional women playing right now who deserve to play in leagues and have fans who fill stadiums to see them play. That is what we must support.
Was it not clear from the beginning that male soccer players are compensated using formula Y and female soccer players are compensated using formula X? If it was common knowledge (and I have read nothing suggest that formula Y was secret) then why did the female soccer players agree to accept any formula other than Y?
I’ll try this with my boss at the end of the year and see how I make out: “Yes, I agreed to 50k but now I want 80k because Bob got 80k. No, I didn’t bring in as much revenue as Bob but I should get 80k too because society doesn’t value my work as much as it values Bob’s and its your job to make up for society’s ignorance.”
4
From the article:
United States Soccer is a nonprofit, exempted from taxation because it serves a social purpose: “To make soccer, in all its forms, a pre-eminent sport in the United States.”
This seems to be a case of the USSF saying to the women's team that "It's a business" while they're telling the government "It's a game." They should not be able to have it both ways.
2
@FA-we makes exceptions to ensure that women can learn the game and play if they wish. Otherwise, they would be blocked as still happens in some places. That is why there is Title IX in the US. Misogyny is still the rule in many places and hopefully over time less so.
@ibivi-sorry...it s/b we make...
I watched on television the ticker tape women's World Cup parade and they deserve congratulations for a job well done. I only wish that the few players who refused to salute our flag had not made this into a political event. There was one blonde female player who not only sang our anthem but saluted our flag. Kudos to her and the others who showed deservedly respect to our country. They are my heroes.
2
First, nobody refused to salute the Flag. And nobody deliberately insulted it. And these women wore red, white and blue, with bitty flag shields on their jerseys.
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/rapinoe-flag-stomp/
It’s just plain nonsense. You know what some of the team DID refuse to salute?
Donald Trump. Boo-hoo.
Rapinoe and others stood there DRAPED in the Flag, and she’s repeatedly talked about her love for this country. But if the draping bothers you, go yell at Trump—and pretty much every yahoo I’ve ever seen with a flag flapping from the back of their pickup truck, tattered, and 80 MPH.
This is a shameful claim.
2
If you consider effort and results that group of women deserves twice of what the men get
3
Isn't it ironic that a perenial winning USWNT team gets paid less than a perenial losing USMNT team? losers make more than winners. Clearly, this injustice must have been corrected long time ago by US Soccer Federation but it chose not to. The USSF leadership needs to be cleaned up and new leadership needs to be brought in.
2
@Jim
@Jim
If your analysis is really that shallow there's no hope for soccer in the US.
They're earning a salary in an un taxed non profit to promote women's soccer. They're winning cups but where are the results? They already won 3 cups prior so where's the bump in fan base and enrolments? Still waiting.
Meanwhile they're winning against pushovers that also get beaten by U15 boys clubs, just like they did.
And the men's team are playing against actual talent and because the women 's team is overpaid for their easy jobs, they can't recruit and retain talent because anyone with a brain would go elsewhere.
See you in 4 years for some more "yada yada"
2
These boy vs girl arguments belong on the playground in 1957. This is what makes you so angry in the world? That a group of ball playing women are asking for salary increases? What would their salary increase do to you or take from you? This “male most be better than female at all cost thought” is disappointing to see from so many NYT readers in regards to these women asking for salary increases. Stunning, really. If you cannot find in your psyche a way to enjoy and celebrate these women and their win, then just leave this alone. Why such venom, why such boasting about the superiority of the males, why when the men are very well compensated? I am straining to understand the outrage this has provoked in so many people. Have we become such a divisive and splintered nation that we cannot celebrate the World Cup win and let these women negotiate their salaries, which they have a right to do?
1
They're already getting the money.
They've made more money the last 2 years than the men have made.
Worse, the women agreed to a deal that guarantees them an income while conceding $ on the incentive front.
I don't know why women do this to themselves, but they'll take the $15 hour bartender top without the tip credit, only to learn later that if they took the same job at $5 an hour with tips..they would have made $25/hour.
Is it our job to save poor negotiators from themselves?
Plus..look at the media $. The women's team will now go back into dormancy for 4 years...and the men's team will get huge ratings around the globe.
Is it our fault that nations that love Futball Americano are also sexist and traditionalist? Look at European soccer clubs. YOu see the women making us much as Lionel Messi?
Also...just as a side...stripping down to your skivvies and posing in Sports Illustrated Swimsuit edition is not exactly 'Female Empowerment', IMHO.
This is a great group of athletes, but they need to build a global audience that will turn the tv on when they play a match. Failing that, they get what they deserve..and not a dime more.
This is not dissimilar from tennis where Serena Williams makes the same $ as Roger Federer in prize money even though she only has to play 2/3 sets vs. the men playing 3/5.
Shouldn't the men only play 2/3 sets in major tournaments so they can get paid equally to the women?
5
The only way the Women soccer team will get paid equal to the men is if the entire planet were to watch Women Soccer like they do Men's Soccer. The bottom line is that Women Soccer is only popular in the United States and not around the world as the Men's game. The prize pool for the Men's World Cup is $400 million -- where the Women World Cup is $30 million. See link ---
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/04/womens-world-cup-final-how-much-money-is-on-the-line.html
The answer to the disparity is very simple --- Television contract.
4
@Mr Peabody Actually, women's soccer isn't popular here either except when it's world cup time and all the jingoists on the left get to chant USA USA -- while our team of "superstars" destroy teams that shouldn't even be playing for their neighborhood championship.
1
How about the average pay and top of range pay for models? Males are paid significantly below females..where is the equality outcry?
5
Why does this have to be about male vs female? Let the women try to negotiate their salaries.
1
Perhaps since gender is just a construct we should just have a national soccer team with the best players on it? Here's the thing though, there probably wouldn't be any women on it. This same women's team lost to a male under 17 team from the club FC Dallas 5-2.
The biological reality is that the players are not equal. The men's team is physically bigger, stronger, and faster which to be blunt equates to being better on the pitch.
The Women's World Cup is also not an equivalent revenue driver compared to the Men's World Cup. It drives only a fraction of the TV coverage, viewership, and sponsorships of the men's game.
So what would be fair? It seems to me that each squad should get a an equal proportion of the revenue that they generate. If the success of the women's game leads to a surge in team USA branded apparel, etc, the women SHOULD share in that, but if it continues to remain a second tier sport, their "success" is largely irrelevant.
4
The women's team are national heroines, but characterizing any athlete's inability to earn the millions of dollars a year as other athletes might as an "injustice" is inexplicable. As anyone who has tried to spend the money to take the family to a professional sporting event in the USA knows, the problem isn't that the women are underpaid. The men are overpaid.
2
Pay the women (and the men) in accordance with how much revenue they generate. That’s the only fair way to do it.
2
"The women who wear the nation’s colors are ambassadors on an international stage. Their performances inform perceptions of the United States."
Disrespecting the flag, kneeling during the national anthem, cursing on twitter, these are all great actions from "ambassadors."
"But revenue is the wrong measuring stick."
The women aren't even in the same universe, in terms of revenue. If the women were paid the same total as the men — $400 million — they would be making nearly four times more than they generate. The men make 7% of their revenue. The women apparently want 400% of theirs. That's absurd, obviously, to say the least.
4
Totally agree that the women should be paid MORE than the men since they "killed" it this year in the World Cup. This is an obvious no brainer. I hope the women prevail in court.
1
The national women's soccer team deserves and will soon have equal pay with the men. It will be more difficult to achieve the same goal in the regional teams that do not benefit from as much funding exernal to their local markets.
While we celebrate this team, it is time for someone to say that one of the team's star players, Megan R., in her narcissism and selfish behavior, is detracting from the universal admiration the team deserves. Irrespective of how one feels about her political opinions, her decision to use the fame she has now because of the team to further her political opinions and goals will cost the team millions and millions of supporters it had and would continue to have othewise.
Yes, she does have a megaphone and the spotlight now and many will support her decision to use it while she can. Nevertheless, none can dispute that this self-promotion will hurt the team and subsumes or actually silences the opinions of other team members.
We could see her selfishness and narcissism on the field when after a goal, she would run to the crown, preening with an iconic "watch me" pose, before or rather than, joining her co-players in a group celebration. We could see this behavior also when she consented to the filming of a puff piece on her fashion choices to be aired during the World Cup. We could see it on the tarmac at the airport yesterday and we could see it in her consent to a CNN puff piece last night and her use for political purposes.
1
"...much of the money comes from FIFA..."
If you think the women players are going to get a fair shake from this FIFA outfit, you might not be grounded in reality
It would be great to see a Battle of the Sexes soccer match between the U.S. Women’s Team and the U.S. Men’s Team.
2
Yes, by all means, equal pay. But first reduce the men's pay to something less absurd.
They make what the market bears. Let’s be brutally honest—very few care about ANY soccer (ne football) in USA. Like the metric system, they’ve tried for years to make Americans interested, let alone care. Americans are bandwagoners—big tourney, they watch while consuming chicken wings and curated and local craft IPAs. Then the sport disappears. Women can’t beat teen men. Slow. Boring.
These women make millions in endorsements.
Trump hates them. They hate Trump. What else is new.
Let’s spend some sport money on real things like education, healthcare, and housing.
3
Yes, women's sports should be on par with men. But they are not. Even for the final game of the World Cup there were many empty seats. If the fans don't want to see women play, they won't come to fill the stadiums. The game on Sunday was not exciting or up to World Cup level until the 2nd 45. That must be improved. FIFA is including too many countries that aren't up to that standard and we keep seeing the same countries winning finals. There is still more work to do. Congratulations to the US team!
1
Of course it's all about revenue, even for any non-profit on the planet. I suspect as the USWNT continues to grow in popularity due to their excellence, their revenue and their pay will also increase. Equal pay is wonderful, but revenue is the reality. The best pediatricians in the world are still paid less than mediocre orthopedic surgeons, regardless of gender. Why? Revenue brought in.
4
There is an argument to be made here that, on account of their impressive victory, they are worth more to the US than are male soccer players representing the nation. But not less. Multiple assessments of which team (men's or women's) contributes more to national prestige may be required for this, and multiple voices to assess worth must likely weigh in.
But that is if it is the US taxpayer paying. Is the federation taxpayer funded?
I.e., can the women's team call for a separate federation that looks after its interests, never mind what the men's team does?
2
Are the deans of Harvard University and Bergen Community college paid the same? Just because somebody works the same hours doesn't mean they are paid the same. The difference in quality (real or perceived) matters.
3
@Joe O’Malley I guess that means that the women’s team should be paid more than the men’s to reflect their greater success and achievements.
Men may perceive that they ‘deserve’ more but performance and results tell a different story.
2
In a more reasonable time and with a more gracious and reasonable occupant in the Whitehouse, our president would be championing our USA National Women’s Soccer Team not demeaning some of their members—himself and his office in the process. For a man who purports to appreciate those who “like their women on the younger side”, one would think Mr. Trump would be front and center championing these women’s case for equal treatment with their male counterparts and their demonstration that they are indeed the best of the best. Now that would truly go a long way toward “making America great again.”
2
In what sense do athletes “represent” America. In every sport, athletes are mostly about making money and winning trophies. Advancing America just isn’t in their portfolio. The New York Yankees are a business, not a representative of New Yorkers, except in a marketing sense. This soccer team played its games in France. Wrapping themselves in the flag seems to appeal to some people, but it’s just capitalism, not patriotism.
5
You made the best case yourselves, that pay is not the right measure for a competitive sport: "But revenue is the wrong measuring stick. United States Soccer is a nonprofit." Winning a game, or even a whole series is its own reward.
I'm afraid that in the USA who gets the biggest paycheck is becoming more and more the measure of merit.
2
In this age of gender 'fluidity', why are we discussing pay differences? These are all just soccer players. Anyone has the right to try out for any of the teams. Just 'self identify' if necessary to overcome some outdated heteronormative gender classification.
4
Women World Cup players make less than men World Cup players because the Men’s World Cup generates about $3.5 billion in revenue while the women’s World Cup generates about $1.5 billion. Far more nations enter teams in the men’s World Cup than the women’s and the men play more games. There is more money to distribute in the men's Word Cup than the women's.
As the Washington Post pointed out yesterday, the difference in pay between U.S. men and women soccer players is also attributable to difference in their collective-bargaining agreements.
The male players don’t get a salary; they only get bonuses based on performance. Female players get salaries.
Male players are paid only when they play. Women players are guaranteed pay even if they don’t make the roster
The Post’s fact checker said, “Using the same 20-game scenario, we calculated the player on the women’s team would earn $28,333 less, or about 89 percent of the compensation of a similarly situated men’s team player. If both teams lost all 20 games, the players would make the same amount. That’s because the men earn a $5,000 bonus when they lose and the women have a $100,000 base salary.”
5
They aren’t asking for pay equity with the whole world, ace.
They’re asking for something close to pay equity with the American men’s team.
1
It’s obvious that the women athletes are getting the short end of the stick here, but the amount of money generated by sports is enormous and little of that money benefits average people. Instead we allow a few people to get incredibly rich. Shouldn’t we have the revenue from large public competitions like the World Cup or the Olympics benefit the populous as a whole. If these are public events let the participating countries earn money that they can spend on public projects.
I remember how Martina Navratilova was badly treated by the media but tirelessly carried the banner of equality for women and eventually for gays. This is not a new phenomenon that appeared out of the blue. Lesbians and gay men are not and have never been paid equally...then nor now.
3
The federation needs to do a better job distributing the money that flows in due to the USWNT without question. I would love to see how much of the federation’s cash flow goes to the bloated administration. That being said I hate to see the endless criticism of the USMNT in the NYT and elsewhere. They just had a great run in the Gold Cup and are poised for great things. Why are they always portrayed as losers who are unsuccessful?
There’s a double standard in soccer for sure, but if there was only one US national team no women would be on it because they are not good enough to make the team. The women I work with are on the exact same playing field I am on and they are paid the same as I am. The USMNT team plays on a MUCH higher field than the USWNT. The women’s success is due in large part to title IX and the rest of world’s indifference to women’s sports in general. The Europeans are starting to invest in women’s sports and they are catching up.
The bottom line is if you want to see the women paid more maybe pay attention to women’s soccer more often than every four years. I have seen both national teams play. I saw the men in front of 70,000 and the women in front of less than 40,000 more than once. The dollars that flow in when you support the women’s team should go to them. Spend your money on the USWNT! Lip service isn’t helping. Also anyone who wants to can make a tax deductible donation to US Soccer.
2
I find it amazing that money should be an issue when representing the country. It should be an honor not a business decision. Yet here we are with this mess. At a time in history it was tax payer money that paid for the U.S. athletes to support them. Now it's sponsors and tickets sales to pay these athletes. These athletes should be just grateful to be able to represent the U.S.. I know one thing they get excellent treatment when they travel or stay in the U.S.. They sure eat better than most. They don't use any out of pocket money except to buy personal items.
5
As long as there are separate FIFA Men's and Women's World Cup competition the money will and can be separate and unequal.
They are not doing the same jobs nor playing the same football game.
Tennis has separate and unequal men's and women's events alongside mixed doubles events. Football aka soccer?
The WNBA is not the NBA. How many women play in MLB, NFL and NHL?
3
After watching Megan Rapinoehat t and her teammates, I can see that women's soccer is every bit as demanding as men's and that, in fairness, women players deserve equal pay. I have difficulty seeing this principle when it comes to pro tennis. There is a world of difference in the demands posed by best-of-five sets (the man't game) and 2 out of 3 (the woman's game).
Why do NFL players who barely make the team make more than the very best women's archers? Could it have something to do with revenue?
4
Has anyone even considered the men's team is in such dire straights because there is TOO MUCH MONEY going to the women's team and not enough to recruit a quality men's team? If the US national team is all about building a women's team at the expense of their men's team, that's one choice. Just don't call it gender pay gap when what it is an overcompensated women's team with a credibility gap in women's soccer internationally.
That the women's team managed to negotiate such a favourable contract in the first place is a credit to their drive and negotiating skills. Whether it makes a difference in overall soccer participaton and fan base growth though remains to be seen, so for a team who's reason for being is to promote soccer, I'd say don't count the chickens before your eggs have hatched.
Will Rapinoe's "yada yada" be remembered after she collects her bonus check? How many readers will even remember the US has a soccer team a month from now, much less actually watch games and enroll in clubs?
See you in 4 years, ladies.
6
You are on the wrong side of history. These women are making history while listening to pathetic throwbacks arguing for inequality. Tell that opinion to your daughter. See how it goes over.
1
The Women's world cup produced about 130 Million dollars this year. The participating teams got about 20% of that as prize money.
The Men's world cup from last year produced a bit more than 6 Billion dollars. The participating teams got about 7% of that as prize money.
Not sure about United States' Soccer Federation and it's allocation of money but with respect to FIFA and its most recent two world cups - one for men and one for women - I'd say FIFA hasn't been unfair to women in the allocation of the revenue.
10
If we are asking where the money for equal pay, facilities, and medical care comes from, I think we need to think critically about the options presented to women's soccer fans in the US. The NWSL team in Boston (The Boston Breakers) went under in 2018 because it could not find a new owner for the team. That means that when the World Cup ends, and I want to give my money to Women's Soccer, because I love the game, I have to resort to television. The unfortunate reality of televised women's soccer is that it isn't — before the World Cup the NWSL prematurely lost its agreement with A&E, and only after the popularity during the World Cup did it reach an agreement with ESPN.
This agreement with ESPN is promising, it suggests that viewers who enjoyed the World Cup will be afforded the opportunity to continue enjoying Women's Soccer — something we were not given in the past. In 2011 and 2015, the incredible performances by the US women inspired me to watch more soccer, but unfortunately the only televised options were of the men! I love soccer, and I will always watch it, but I'd prefer to watch the women's game, and I would love the opportunity to do so! I want to help generate revenue with my actions, but right now the big networks and big sponsorships are refusing to invest. They are creating a cycle that gives people the incredibly false belief that people don't want to watch women's sports.
Build the game. Thank you Megan Rapinoe.
2
Aside from those who are truly interested in the sport, for the majority of Americans soccer disappears after the spectacle of an international competition ends. As Daniel Tosh once said, we only care about most of the Olympic sports once every four years. Case in point - how many people have watched one minute of curling since the U.S. Men's team won the gold medal in the 2018?
6
Deep sympathies and admiration for the wonderful ladies of US Soccer (football, in the rest of the world). I was marvelled by their talent. They are best in the world. Now, about equal pay? These ladies make 1mm per year in their respective teams endorsements. I would not lose too much sleep about their salaries. Especially compared with other national teams, for example. This is a rich person's problem, not a real problem of inequality in America (where there is plenty).
8
I'm sorry, these ladies generated very little support.
Do they believe we like soccer more than our country ?
Their shockingly political behavior while representing US will not be forgotten or forgiven.
9
How about lowering the pay for the men? America pays far too much money to sports heroes, while people like teachers have to take on second jobs to feed themselves. The inequities here, while certainly related to sex, go far, far beyond that: to a dreadful mismatch between the actual social value of a job and the money you earn for doing it.
7
Surely gender equality calls for equal pay. Does it also calls for equality in ethics- or lack thereof? Male soccer is a rotten affair with FIFA officials regularly indicted on fraud/bribery charges, with the main events (world cup etc) being held in corrupt countries, including in places were workers die by the hundreds under the sun to build the monstrous facilities (guess where).
Paying millions to a rock (sorry sports) star to appear on a Nike or Adidas ad directly worsens the Vietnamese workers' conditions (all sports shoes come from there or Indonesia), as he/she has to keep costs low and production high to keep the shareholders benefits high. And us happy to wear the latest pair of plastic bags on our feet.
I know that paying unfathomable sums to sportsmen/women originated in the US, so maybe the US will also lead the way to get rid of that craze.
3
Aside from all their yapping about politics and money they played some good stuff. The second goal in the final was worthy of Eric Lamela. That was some good footy!
1. The women negotiated a Collective Bargaining Agreement. That CBA is still in effect. That CBA covers their compensation until it expires. Why their lawsuit has not been summarily dismissed, therefore, is somewhat of a mystery. Yes, I am an attorney and a litigator at that.
2. In their lawsuit, the women have focused only on the years since 2016. In 2016 for the first time in two decade, the Mens Team did not qualify for the World Cup. Prior to 2016, the Mens' team always generated much more in World Cup Revenue than did the Womens Team.
My daughters were soccer players. I really respect what the WNT have accomplished. However, there is just not a smuch money in their game as there is in the Mens'. Also, a sseveral astute posters note, they negotiated a totally different deal than did the men.
Notably, the Women get a guaranteed salary of 100k for being US players.. The Men get no salary for being US players.
3. When their CBA expires, the Women can negotiate another deal. Until then, a Deal is a Deal.
7
I’m sure the argument can and is being made that the CBA was not negotiated in good faith by both parties.
1
Since sports is a business in which profits are generated based on the popularity and prowess of a particular team or player, why should s income be determined by their gender rather than their ability to draw the public to its games. If women's sports become popular, drawing larger crowds than the equivalent male team, surely it would make economic sense for their income to rise above that of their male counterparts. To argue, from an ideological perspective, the proposition that male and female players should, as a matter of conscience, be paid the same, is to open the road wide to the economic and business dysfunction. Good luck to the owners.
3
At least – back in the day – we pretended "separate but equal" was equal...
What the elitist tone-deaf dolts moderating our national teams fail to grasp is that this sort of power-based and legacy-based inequality is what also spawned and cloaked the systemic sexual harassment of our young women athletes...
If I can treat you less than equal in public – imagine what I can do once the door is shut...
The power of Megan Rapinoe's narrative is more than equal to the power of her and her team-mates play...
Even Trump got this, weeks ago...
Her father will catch on eventually...
Should the women's national basketball team be paid the same as the men's team?
For that matter, should the women's national teams for field hockey or softball be paid the same as for soccer?
I'm glad the WNT is bringing up these issues and forcing discussions on equal pay. But the definition of "equal work" is worth discussing.
4
You GO, Gals!
3
I hope the Editors open their personal checkbooks and send money as they clearly feel very strongly.
13
No honor is too great for these magnificent women. Anything less than a thousand foot high monument on the moon to their greatness shows that we are all despicable sexists. Obviously.
11
Rapinoe was representing herself and the world lesbian commuinty and villifying the USA. I see no reason to pay her for that. The others? Sure, pay them as much as the men.
6
Do all the reporters/essayists/editors at the NYT earn the same amount? Is the person covering the war/wars in the Mid-East compensated to the same degree as the writer assigned to the Styles section whose farthest destination is either somewhere in Brooklyn or The Hamptons? They are writers utilizing the same set of skills and therefore deserve the same pay.
12
The arguments against Rapinoe and her teammates are laughable.
How do I know? Because I see the way the arguers flip from claim to claim, distort realities, and have been trying to pretend that they’re not actually furious mainly because the team told Trump to take a rolling jump.
First it was that women wearing red, white and blue and waving flags are “unpatriotic,” and “denigrated America,” because El Maximo tried to horn in before the final two games, and got told to get lost.
Then it was that they were “politicizing,” the sport, as though Trump hadn’t just finished politicizing the Fourth, as though there weren’t a hearty dollop of politics in every NFL game.
Then their demos were arrogant or something, unsportsmanlike—UFC much? A-rod?
Then the bull about the women’s team bringing in less. Then it was well they don’t, but you have to look at the quality of the game. Then it was women always lose to men. Then it was...then it was...then it was. If they say money, we say it’s sport. If they say it’s sport, we say money.
Fact is, the boys are offended because Rapinoe has purple hair and is, well, you know, one of Them. Fact is, she told Trump to take a rolling jump. Fact is, boys get upset when women stand up for themselves. Fact is, they’re scared word might get around about their privileges.
Wasn’t so long ago that the boys threw the same arguments at Babe Ruth. Isn’t so long ago they threw ‘em at players about concussions. Just yesterday, same guff at men.
5
I’m sure they are great athletes, and their achievement is notable, but enough already. You’d think from all the media attention that they were the first women to walk on Pluto. And we all know why the liberal media is saturating us with this- yet another dig at the evil white man. Hooray.
And honestly, I think watching soccer is even more boring than watching baseball.
12
This is the EB Opinion that basically puts the man-hating nail in the anti-Enlightenment coffin of the NYT.
9
Why do women's teams exist at all?
Oh yeah I forgot, "discrimination"
www.cbssports.com/g00/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage
7
th eproblem with type of thinking is that is based on activism and NOTHING else.
Any top 100 male national team in the world can beat this team.
They are not that great at all, compared to men. They don't have the earning potential of men. They are arrogant as well and care more about politics than sport.
They have erased all the positived all the other teams together achieved with these idiotic demands
8
Forbes did the math; the women are paid more than the men, as a percentage of revenue raised by the events. Men’s soccer sells more merchandise, more television ads and therefore raises more money.
What kind of moron would not pay the women more money if they were worth more? Why would men pay other men more money than they are worth?
If men are as sexist and evil as the Board implies, would men not pay the women more to gain favor from them?
Think more, lie better. The free market evidences women and men are both paid their respective worth. No one has incentive to otherwise act, over time, else the market would punish their imprudent behavior by allowing a competitor to crush them.
11
OK, here's a thought experiment. Let's say we have a national curling team that competes for the world cup in curling.
And we also have a men's national basketball team that competes in the world cup of basketball.
Let's -- shudder to think it -- that somehow our curling team wins all the world cups and olympics -- and yet every once in a while our USA basketball team fails to win.
So should the curling team be paid more because they always win (and I mean who are they competing against)? I don't think so. There's a market for curling players, and a market for basketball players -- and there is no comparison. If you don't pay the basketballers, they won't play == the curlers should be happy that they get some $$$ out of a sport few care for.
This is an analogy. There isn't much of a market for women's professional soccer players. There's a huge market for men.
The women should be happy they get paid quite well for a sport few watch outside of the world cup.
But if they really want equal pay, let's cut out this sexist non sense and have one national team. No mens, no womens, just one team comprised of the best players.
How many women make the team? ZERO.
11
I’m not sure I agree, though I think a sex blind league is an interesting idea. I’d watch the best players on the pitch, regardless.
Some of the women playing in this Cup were easily as good, if not better, than certain EPL counterparts. If I were an owner, and Association rules allowed it...I’d think about buying transfers for certain players, after what I just saw.
If I were Billy Beane, I know I’d find SERIOUSLY underpriced value and could utilize it.
I think there are a couple women who might be technically better-more accurate-than certain men getting paid over £300,000/week.
Certainly I want the chance to put the women on my fantasy teams and see how the performances hold up. Lets model it out.
Should champion WNBA players make the same money as players on a champion NBA team? No. Why? Because they are in different leagues that bring in vastly different sums of money.
It's not about the success of the team, but about the success of the league. FIFA men's soccer far, far surpasses FIFA women's soccer in terms of revenue.
9
As the libertarian Robert Nozick argued, pay is not about people "deserving" it. It is about people freely giving their money to see or buy something. If they want to give their money to see a clutz play tiddle-dee-winks, so be it. He is entitled to every penny. If women soccer players attract people willing to pay to see them, then they are entitled to the money. There are great athletes in many sports that no one is much interested in paying to see. We may feel they "deserve" more, but they are not "entitled" to more.
134
@John The women's games outearned the men's over the past few years: https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600
I'm no libertarian, but it seems to me that Robert Nozick or Milton Friedman or whomever else would acknowledge that in this case, they are in fact entitled to more.
28
@John
Even if libertarians had any real understanding of how the real world works, your argument supports paying the women more. Since they are more popular, are making the sport more popular in the USA, and sell more tickets than the men.
20
@Adam
And yet, the USWNT participates in FIFA and women's soccer brings in very little money to FIFA relative to men's soccer. They are very big fish in a very small pond. That seems to be changing slightly, but it is still reality.
19
"The men’s tournament brought in over $6 billion in revenue in 2018, while the women’s tournament is estimated to only have brought in $131 million in 2019. The prize pools are taken from those revenue totals. In other words, the women’s prize pool was approximately 23 percent of their total revenue, while the men’s prize pool consisted of approximately 7 percent of revenue."
10
Volkswagen- here is your chance in the US at redemption.
You are the presenting sponsor of the USA Women's Soccer team ( https://bit.ly/2LJJGmu ), take a stand for what is right and publicly endorse paying this team at a level commensurate with their performance and popularity.
Maybe we should all turn up the heat on the sponsors and get this team the pay they deserve. VW is on social media under @VW and @vw_of_america . Be polite, but let them know you support pay equity and will be paying attention.
2
The book "Futbalera: A history of Women's Sports in Latin America" provides some clues about the low pay and low performance dogging female football athletes.
It appears that upper middle class white women in the U.S. have encountered as if for the first time in global soccer the drag on salary that all low skill workers encounter when they enter the global pool of labor.
Why does globalism work for some and not for others? This is the question advocates for the women's team should be asking.
Instead these activists have already answered the question with a meeetooo!!! platitude.
Let us pause and think about the global culture of football and the warped economic models and the toxic fruits of other people's labor that spring from this poisoned soil.
Rinaldo's compensation is so high because the global poor tax themselves in order to celebrate his prowess on the soccer pitch. Futball's global governing body collects these taxes that are willingly handed over by the seduced crowd.
The me too call for equal compensation for female footballers is really a call by upper middle class white women for the global poor to tax themselves further to support the mediocre play of Megan Rapineo. I am not sure the global poor will voluntarily hand over this money and the global governing body does not want to allocate its collected revenues based on the whims of an out of touch insular elite who will be irrelevant to the global game in 8 years once European clubs find their feet.
4
I fully agree that the women's' teams (all of them) deserve better pay, but I am not sure one can equate the men's game with that of the women's. True, the crowds and television ratings are impressive - but they pale in comparison to the men's in terms of every single metric. It's akin to comparing apples to oranges - there is simply no comparison aside from the shape of the ball. And with the exception of marquee matches (mostly featuring the US team), most of the games were poorly attended - and, in fact, most were quite dour and poor in quality and played at a pedestrian-pace. That said, the women's game has improved in leaps and bounds - and I do enjoy watching the games (loved Japan), but it has still a very long to go . . .
6
As Billie Jean King et al. demonstrated a few decades ago in the context of women's tennis, money is not going to flow due to players having "earned" it and that it is "the right thing to do." If that were the case, it would have happened already in women's soccer. In red-meat capitalist America, money is going to flow more equally because women athletes continue to organize and fight tooth and nail for the maximum amount of compensation for their labor.
32
Wow. The boys are weighing in with precisely the same comments they made on the other article, though here there’s less flag-waving.
It’s pretty simple, okay: the American women’s team, this year, brought in a bit more than the men’s team. And I’ll bet all the ad revenues haven’t even been counted yet.
So why are they paid much less? Simple. The boys can, so they do. Why are their facilities, travel, etc., measurably inferior? Simple. The boys can, so they do. Why does the distaff side of the sport get less for development from the national org? Simple. The boys...
The other hilarious simplicity is this: in terms of dough, our national team players earn chump change, compared to the major pro sports. We’re just not talking about that much money.
So why not just give ‘em a fair deal?
3
Yes, why is it even an argument when women soccer are the world's winning team for two decades now.
Reading comments here about these women making us look bad... Lord, have mercy.
If this attitude was coming from men's soccer team who was winning (which they are not), I assure you everyone here would have been chortling with glee, malicious glee even, how the "boys' showed the other team what they are made of.
This misogynistic attitude that women should behave a certain way and that is 'the way', is so entrenched in society's joint thought process... its painful.
I wish female players in other games would adopt this defiant attitude on the field as well and say, 'bring it on'.
A lot of non-athletes commenting here cannot understand that such games are not just physical and athleticism dominance, team also do such displays to have a psychological dominance as well.
Have you ever seen NewZealand ruby team do their Haaka before matches. Ask other teams, some say it is enough to kill their morale. I haven't heard one word of criticism on their aggressiveness from anyone!
Do you remember the thoroughbred-racing queen Zenyatta... she habitually would dance to the grounds, pawing the grounds fairly arrogantly before her races and even afterwards... her trainer said, she knew what she was up against, what class of athlete she was and that she was taking on the best of them and then showed them... watch me dance.
That's what I say to our soccer team, tell them... watch me dance!
2
How come there aren't any Black women on the US women's soccer team? I saw one play I believe. Dunn. That was it. So is the US women's soccer team racist? Why not more representation. Shouldn't the women's team look like America?
Is it possible that there aren't more Black players is because the women who are on the team went to elite colleges and universities, prep schools and grew up shepherded by soccer moms in White suburban America. Why hasn't the US soccer establishment reached out to the Black community and tried to develop more Black women players?
10
@Ralphie
The country club problem affects men's soccer too. It runs right the way through the club soccer system, into the colleges where potential goes to die, and MLS where the franchise system restricts players' bargaining rights. I really thought the US national team would be further along by now, but it seems to be going backwards. Nothing speaks louder than a coach having his son on the team, as was the case during the Bradley era.
Oh good heavens. These women are now second-class citizens, as the NYT sayss? On the front page of every publication, shouting in joy? Please, even though I'm a male, but would somebody make ME a second class citizen?
This opinion piece, another in the NYT's efforts to never let pass the opportunity to ferret out another victim, chooses to ignore some important data.
The WNBA players don't earn what NBA players do. Why? Because the games are not the same. Men players can simply outperform women players, and to watch the two genders play isn't the same thing. My daughter was a basketball players, and she and I went to our university's men's and women's games because we enjoyed both. But the power and speed of the women's game didn't compare to that of the men's game, even though they were played on the same court, with the same baskets, with the same rules, etc.
How about equalizing the pay according to talent level...you know, merit? Have everyone on the men's soccer teams play everyone on the women's soccer teams and the best players get paid more.
Wait a minute! That's what, in essence, has happened, and that is why the NYT thinks there is another victim. Everybody isn't equal, and these days liberals (which I used to be one until liberalism went off the rails) think everybody should be equal in everything.
10
@Travelers
If you study the argument it is about revenue sharing and development and less about equality pr se.
Do as many spectators watch the women's WC as the men's? How much does each broadcast make for the final?
2
What explains feminists' obsession with what the Times calls "their male counterparts"?
How can they call themselves liberated when they incessantly measure themselves against men?
Congratulations to the women's national soccer team. Why should they be limited by what "male counterparts" earn? I will be delighted for them if they get paychecks that are fatter than the counterparts. After all, they are world champions and the male counterparts are not.
Conversely I will be sympathetic, but not concerned, if they get thinner paychecks than their counterparts. After all, their counterparts faced far tougher competition.
The one thing that is completely unacceptable is what (predictably) the Times advocates -- "at least equal to their male counterparts." When will you ever learn? As Aristotle said, treating unlike cases alike is injustice. Let both women and their "counterparts" get what they earn.
7
In compensation, market matters. You don't get paid the same for being the CEO of a small town bank somewhere in the midwest as you do being CEO of JP Morgan or Bank of America. Yes, the job titles are the same, and the general job responsibilities are similar, except in scale and complexity -- but there is no way the jobs are the same or the compensation. And the competition for the services of the CEO of a major financial institution is significantly different than that for the CEO of a small town bank.
For the men -- even the downtrodden US men -- play professional soccer and make 6 figure or more salaries (many of them). Most play MLS, but a few play for European teams where the money is really good -- two play for Premier league teams.
The women, in contrast, play women's professional soccer -- the salaries avg close to 50k or less with a few making 6 figures. The market for women's soccer is clearly not as great, not even close.
Men take a pay cut to play for the national team. For women, it is their bread and butter (compared to pro salaries) and that's how they get marketing contracts.
Men's soccer is the beautiful game. Women's soccer is kind of cute but with a nasty personality. Don't mistake Megan Rapinoe for Lionel Messi, Ronaldo or Eden Hazard. It's not even close.
As for pay gaps being a persistent problem, that's simply a leftist canard. Once you control for relevant factors like industry, geography, job, level -- pay gaps disappear.
11
The World Surf League equalized all prize money for men and women surfers last year without much media buzz. There was no campaign or lawsuits, just a sports organization doing the right thing. FIFA can simply act out of integrity, if there's any shred left within the organization.
2
@Paolo Perrone, No one cares about surfing.
3
The women looked so good on the field this past World Cup.
In losing to Mexico in the CONCACAF Gold Cup Tournament, the men looked rather like also-rans.
If these two teams played, given how each team plays, my money would be on the women and I am not kidding. They were nimble, coordinated, fast, and highly effective whereas the men did not appear so at all. The strength of the men is not an advantage over the team play capable of being played by the women.
Maybe this generation needs its own "Billie Jean King-Bobby Riggs, Battle of the Sexes" match between the two teams.
Then, after the women's victory, maybe the US Soccer Federation's money will be on the women as well.
3
@VJR That's absurd. The US Womens team just lost to a mediocre club team of 14 year old boys in Dallas a year ago. BTW, that club team was only ranked as the #10 best in the state of Texas at the time, and the women LOST 5-2
5
@VJR, Men would win 100-0. Satisfied? Women couldn't get past mid-field.
6
How much revenue do they bring in, compared with the men?
2
We have a Men's Under 20 team. If they won the U-20 World Cup while the US National Men's team did not, would anyone suggest that the U-20 Men be paid more? Of course not! The US Men's national team plays against the best international squads on the planet. Only players under 20 are eligible for the U-20 competition, and unsurprisingly the quality of the U-20 team's opponents is far lower.
By all accounts the US Men's national team would destroy our Men's U-20 team, which would destroy our Men's U-17 team, which would destroy our Women's national team.
Can somebody explain to me why the logic that we use to pay the men on the National team and U-20 (which gives the U-20s much lower pay even when they have a better outcome) does not apply to the women, who face far weaker opponents, have far less commercial demand for their services, and accordingly are paid much less than the men?
92
@Jason, who is it you think is paying our national teams? Both the USWNT and the USMNT are employed by the US Soccer Federation.
"In the three years after the U.S. women’s soccer team won the 2015 World Cup, U.S. women’s games generated more total revenue than U.S. men’s games, according to audited financial reports from the U.S. Soccer Federation."
US Soccer needs to be providing the same base pay, training resources, and promotional efforts to both teams. At the club level, sure, salaries are determined by the clubs profitability. But at the national level, US Soccer has no excuse.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600
1
@sdybiec That's not accurate. The women are GUARANTEED a base income of 100k, the men don't get any guaratees.
The women need the guaranteed money because the NWSL is barely surviving. The men have the prosperous MLS to fall back on.
2
You don't understand what you are talking about. Learn about the way FIFA works and understand just how small the women's game is outside of the US. The US women are already getting a much larger share of the revenue from their World Cup than the winning mens team does. The men's game is huge by every measure. The male/female discrepancy in pay from the US national federation is actually quite small.
2
The women's soccer team may have legitimate complaints that should be addressed. But it's ludicrous to attempt to equate winning a women's World Cup to winning a men's World Cup. It's not even close. The depth of competition in the men's game is light years ahead of the women's game. They attract a bigger audience. That's why they are paid differently. This is going to sound harsh but there's no polite way to put this. Women aren't as good as men in soccer or any other sports for that matter. That is not an "assumption", that is a reality. There are dozens of boy's collegiate teams who will beat the women's national team in a competitive match 20-0. Obviously, that doesn't mean that women's teams should not be supported and their achievements celebrated - but it is still a biological reality. The power, pace,& technique of the international men's game is far beyond the women's for a number of reasons. Generally speaking, people are drawn to watch sport played at the highest possible level. Ignoring this is absurd. "Woke" columns like this alienate people who are potential supporters of the team. Women should have the opportunity to be professional athletes and should be appropriately compensated for their achievements. But pretending that winning a women's World Cup is as big an achievement as winning a men's, or pretending that the standard of play in the women's game is just as high, that's just lying. Women don't need that. We can enjoy both sports for different reasons.
99
@Bill Brown sure, you can argue that winning a Men's World Cup is a bigger achievement that winning a Women's World Cup. But is failing to make the playoffs for a Men's World Cup really a bigger achievement than winning a Women's World Cup?
21
@SDC The men fell flat on their face for sure, but even Trinidad and Tobago's men's team has more financial and cultural support (especially historically) than almost all of the Women's World Cup teams. Is that the way it should be? No. But that's the way it is.
8
@Bill Brown
This isn't about how hard it is or how many "light years" men's teams are ahead. It is capitalism and the fact that the USNWT generates enthusiasm and revenue that they are not proportionally compensated for. It is that simple and talking about collegiate teams winning 20 - 0 is absurd and you clearly don't understand what people are "drawn to". How much evidence to you need?
12
It's disappointing and discouraging to read all of the comments from the men AND women, some very disparaging, regarding the lack of support for the women's US soccer's team success as well as support for equal pay. Why are women their own worst enemies on the political and professional sports spectrum among other things? Even famous main character and supporting actresses in so called blockbuster films don't get equal pay for doing the same job as male actors. The US women's team train on turf which makes them prone to injury while the men's team trains on grass. The men's team travel on chartered planes while the women fly commercial. You claim the women were unsportsmanlike yet don't call out male athletes for the same behavior. Have you ever noticed the fans during men's soccer games overseas? The drunken fights? I'd say our women were proud, they finished the job and represented our country well as they have for the past 20 years. And the US fans who traveled all the way to France? That speaks for itself. I suggest to all of the men AND women on this thread listen to yesterday's On Point podcast What A World Cup: Recapping The 2019 Women's Tournament and get a true understanding of what's really happening in the world of women's soccer and why equal pay is justified.
2
@Fed up In NEOhio i have just watched the quarterfinal tennis match between serena Williams and Alison Riske. It was thrilling tennis, but only three sets. Why should she be paid as much as a male player who wins in 5 thrilling sets?
5
@LD
Funny that’s you don’t realize different number of sets between men and women in tennis is itself a form a form of discrimination. Apparently women are too “delicate” to play 5 sets.
Oh the irony that you don’t realize what you are really saying is: why don’t women tennis players get paid less for being victims of sex discrimination that limits their play?
1
@Mariah Interesting point. Which female players are arguing that playing 3 sets is discriminatory? Which female players are asking to play 5 set matches?
4
This article conveniently omitted the specifics of the exponential difference in revenue generation between men's and women's teams.
A quick google search uncovered:
$ 73 Million -vs- $ 4 Billion.
Women's soccer team generated LESS THAN 2 % of what the men's team generated.
"Four years ago after the U.S. women beat Japan to capture the World Cup in Vancouver, the Women's World Cup brought in almost $73 million, of which the players got 13%. The 2010 men's World Cup in South Africa made almost $4 billion, of which 9% went to the players."
(source: Forbes https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2019/03/07/world-cup-soccer-pay-disparity-between-men-and-women-is-justified/#c2782046da4a)
5
@99percent That article is comparing overall tournament revenue. This editorial is arguing for US Soccer to pay the men's and women's teams the same. The women's team generates more broadcast revenue in the US than the men's does.
1
At the Washington Post pointed out today, the difference in pay between U.S. men and women soccer players is attributable to difference in their collective-bargaining agreements.
The male players don’t get a salary; they only get bonuses based on performance. Female players get salaries.
Male players are paid only when they play. Women players are guaranteed pay even if they don’t make the roster
The Post’s fact checker said, “Using the same 20-game scenario, we calculated the player on the women’s team would earn $28,333 less, or about 89 percent of the compensation of a similarly situated men’s team player. If both teams lost all 20 games, the players would make the same amount. That’s because the men earn a $5,000 bonus when they lose and the women have a $100,000 base salary.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/07/08/are-us-womens-soccer-players-really-earning-less-than-men/?utm_term=.d462c9b72801
17
@William Case
Let's not let facts get in the way of all the moralizing and grandstanding that's going on right now.
The point is WHEN the USWNT finally get equal pay -its for sure going to happen at this point. Even Blue Dog ( I voted for Kavanaugh) Joe Manchin is now grandstanding- it will only directly effect the lives of an extremely small percentage of women (including athletes). WNBA players can't make the case that their league is more popular than the NBA (or even remotely close ), the LPGA tours viewership pales in comparison to the PGA etc...
Tennis was only able to gain pay "equality" by joining each of the men's and women's major championships into one unified event. If the men's and women's events were held separately this wouldn't have been possible. Thus, sponsor money and TV revenues could be divided equally (regardless of the overall viewership of women's matches versus men's). The prize money is the same for both genders, although for some reason the men have to win three sets per match, the women only two (but again with the minor details).
3
How about a Billie Jean King - Bobby Riggs redux?
If the women are as great as they think, then play the less deserving men. Soccer is a fairer venue than tennis ever could be... so let's rumble!
It could be a PPV extravaganza. Many millions to the victorious!
3
The editorial clearly argues the position that a non-profit whose sole purpose is "to make soccer, in all its forms, a pre-eminent sport in the United States” does not need to be bound to revenue streams when doling out pay for the men's and women's teams. So many hide behind "it's economics" and "it's business" while ignoring that the promotion of soccer in America is being accomplished equally by a repeat champion women's team and a men's team that didn't make the World Cup. The women now have the best-selling soccer jersey in America and the most-watched soccer game in US history.
If you argue it should be tied solely to revenue: why?
The money is there to pay both equally. The men have even agreed to the idea. Why is this threatening to some people?
It's not either men or women -- both can thrive.
Similarly, FIFA giving equal prize money to the women would require a less than a tenth of their annual budget once every four years. By not doing so, they are losing the opportunity to double the reach of soccer worldwide. Why do so many fall back on the cultural bias that there's no way the women's game will grow as much as the men's game that's been given decades more to develop? No one thought soccer would achieve the MLS appeal it has in Atlanta, for instance. Time for some vision.
20
@Positive Force
You make some great arguments about promoting soccer. A little pie eyed and Pollyanna, but still, positive.
But those aren't the arguments used by Rapinoe nor in the equal pay litigation (oops! Mediation) They argue more money because, performance! Audience ! And it's currently the case, although it wasn't when the women signed up for guaranteed salaries in 2017. Can you say "hypocrite"?
And your argument ignores the fact that revenues only impact the equation indirectly. Revenues serve recruitment. Talented men can, and in the US case, do go anywhere that pays better. Have you considered the men's team is in such dire straights because there is TOO MUCH MONEY going to the women's team and not enough to recruit a quality men's team?
If the US national team is all about building a women's team at the expense of their men's team, that's one choice. Just don't call it gender pay gap when what it is a credibility gap that overcompensate the women's team.
6
@Positive Force Does the women's team really have the best-selling soccer jersey in America? I've only seen it described as the best selling soccer jersey on the Nike website. Nike is only one player in the worldwide soccer/futbol jersey market. And remember that on the same day that the US women won the WWC championship, the Mexican men's team won the regional Copa de Oro right here in Chicago. There are a millions of Mexicans and Mexican-Americans residing in the U.S. who are fanatical about "El-Tri" and who sport Mexican national team jerseys.
3
Give everyone at NYT a raise.
Because these women are now destined to stride like soccer players; round shouldered; dangling arms; feet pointing outward, does not entitle them to professional male money. When the girls @ NYT get their raises, they should encourage all the sisters to start supporting a team. Not just occasionally, but season tickets; Jerseys, hair dye, etc. When the NYT Good Girls get notices from their cable companies that girl's soccer is a package upgrade ..
4
Why not pay the men the same as the women?
4
The day they can beat the world champion mens team is the day they should be paid the same.
3
Spain was robbed...
3
@KMW... Better leave NYC by Tuesday night... Your poor sporting sensibilities will be further distorted come Wednesday morning, if not.
And, for the record, no one throughout the WC Tournament, including Megan Rapinoe, disrespected the American flag. She stood respectfully while the National Anthem was played, which is all anyone is asked to do at sporting events, unless you’re a hat-wearing man or a veteran. I believe she is neither.
But I agree with you that Megan Rapinoe will be long remembered for her opinions on and reactions to the president... Long remembered.
1
If the women's team generates more revenue than the men's, then they should be paid more. If they generate less revenue, they should be paid less. If they generate the same, they should be paid the same.
4
Your argument that the women are more successful and therefore should earn more is ignores the fact that soccer is entertainment and the women are less talented and interesting to watch than men. Their shots are weak, their skills limited and their showboating is annoying.
10
@No
And since the rest of the world cares even less about women’s soccer than we do, it’s basically like watching a bunch of baby seal clubbers in action.
2
No matter the professional, men have always been able to produce a long list to justify why women are paid less.
1
@Heidi, And they're correct.
5
Isn't "women's" soccer already a clue to why the men might be paid more? How about eliminating gender discrimination and fund just one team? How is this even a debate in 2019?
Let players earn their spots and the pay that goes with it. If they don't like what's offered they can sign elsewhere.
I can hear the screaming from behind keyboard. That's unfair! Mostly or only men would get spots! It's discrimination (sic) ! Women need role models or they won't get ahead, and soccer won't develop, only men would would watch!
Oops, that's already the case. Never mind, see you next world's cup.
7
Just to be consistent, has the Editorial Board actually thought this out? Usually an employment contract is signed in advance and it is supposed to be binding.
What principles do the Board believe in, if any, for when it is appropriate to alter contractual salaries?
6
"Pay gaps are a persistent problem in American society."
What a joke.
4
Even if equality is reached here, wouldn't it represent largely pointless symbolism? The big paydays in soccer don't come from the World Cup, they come from playing in the big European leagues. And if you believe that those guys are gonna implement equal pay, I've got a lot of stuff to sell you.
You can't credibly argue for equal pay as long as more revenue comes from the men's side. It's not some secret cabal of sexists... it's revenue.
5
The women's US soccer team should be paid more for the simple reason that the men's US soccer team is a terrible bore.
Yes, I'm a man.
Yes, I played soccer.
Yes, they are a bore.
The women's team is exemplary at displaying team work, talent and dynamic playing.
The men? Meh. Little wonder they are almost always outplayed.
But, the men do have a champion.
And what a champion, President Meh.
@Razorwire
Everyone gets it, showboating, not skill, is what motivates you.
Guess what? You're part of a tiny minority of soccer fans. Get over it.
1
@Razorwire I agree that PERHAPS an argument could be made that the women's soccer team should be paid more than what they make now. However they are not even close to facing the competition that men do and come across as greedy buffoons when they demand equal pay.
2
One issue to consider is that income must also be shared within USSF's other departments. Specifically, referee education and coach education and staff support. So, while we want to see equality of pay for the women, it is important that they don't throw the entire bank at the players otherwise, it will be to the detriment of the domestic game.
1
Indeed, they should earn more than their less successful male counterparts.
And let's not let this group and energy wane—
Let's expand it beyond the tournament in Lyon.
Trump has pushed his clumsy nose into it.
So this remarkable team—and all that they represent—should go full tilt with Trump. He's a terrible oafish and lumbering goalkeeper. Get right out on the turf with him—full press. If he hurls names and insults, kick them right past him.
1
I agree with your article. And I love that it will make old white dudes so angry. I can’t wait to read their angry comments later.
1
@EP
Very substantial arguments, kudos. And about as convincing as Rapinoe 's "yada yada"...
2
US has a men's national team? Go figure.
3
Our champion women of soccer have shown the world true greatness, and continue to do so by standing up to the bullying of 'the donald'.
They have also shown us what wimps the NFL and it's vastly over-paid prima donnas are many of. The boys of that league (players and owners) are a a disgrace physically and morally. No wonder their brand of "football" is America's favorite sport.
More pay for our true athletic heroes...The Women's Soccer World Champions.
1
This OpEd is a muddled argument for equal pay, conflating different factors. It’s not very convincing.
7
This is an admirable editorial, but the Board did not do a good enough job answering one important fact: where does the money come from? Money for these salaries comes from TV deals, ticket sales, jerseys, etc. Not from our taxes. If Rapinoe can sell a million jerseys with her name on the back, she deserves a whopping payday. But if she is asking, as I understand, for a bigger share of FIFA revenue from Messi jerseys (which probably sell in the order of tens of millions)--that needs to be clear to readers here who are not soccer fans. Cmon, Times, what you are doing is shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre. Be clear about what is really being asked for. If the USWNT earns a billion dollars, they deserve it. If they are asking for subsidized pay, you need to explain that.
78
@Bryan
I get the point but I don't believe FIFA makes money off of Messi jerseys. That would be Adidas and the Argentine Federation, which sells them, and probably Messi himself. FIFA makes most of its money off of selling TV deals and sponsorships, as you noted, which generate significantly more for the men's World Cup, just a fact. And Rapinoe and co. are not personally asking for a bigger share of FIFA revenue, although they are calling for more investment by FIFA in the women's game and bigger pools of World Cup bonuses (which is good for the players, less so for investment in the game).
What they are specifically calling for with the lawsuit is equal pay by US Soccer, which generates some revenue from FIFA but a lot on its own, from both the men's and women's teams. Depending on how you cut the data (notably whether you include the men's World Cup in 2014, which the women's team's lawyers have for obvious reasons excluded), the women have generated as much revenue if not more than the men over the past several years.
For a good analysis of the lawsuit and demands, see this article: https://www.si.com/soccer/2019/03/08/uswnt-lawsuit-us-soccer-equal-pay-cba-eeoc-gender-discrimination
11
@Tinho You are correct, maybe a portion of a Messi jersey sale does not go directly to FIFA, but (as an example) in 2010, Adidas paid FIFA on the order of 350M to be a sponsor of the World Cup. That money is no doubt coming from jersey and other merch sales, and a portion will make it to USMNT because of their agreement with FIFA, even if they are a mediocre team. This, to me, underscores the responsibility of the Times Board to draw the line between revenue and salaries. I agree that if somehow the USWNT is missing out on revenue that they earned through their licensing, broadcasting, ticket sales or other revenue, they should get it and some damages too. But even your SI article points out that the revenue disparity between the worldwide sports is enormous, and that has to be reckoned with. If revenue from the worldwide men's soccer game is being demanded by the USWNT, it should be made clear. If the conclusion is that it is difficult to sort out the revenue streams and how US Soccer then hands it out to the players, maybe FIFA needs to divest itself of the Women's World Cup and let it run as its own lucrative event.
8
@Bryan
The money athletes are paid comes from the local federations, not from FIFA, so the women are not demanding more money from FIFA, they are demanding that US Soccer pay them the same as the men. And there is absolutely no doubt that Women's soccer is doing much better than men, both in revenue and yes, in the stated goals of the group. If the goal of US Soccer is to promote the sport, then the women's team is doing by any measurable statistic better than the men's, the men's team have been a disaster while the women now have 4 world cups, the men 0, the men failed to even qualify in 2016 and may not qualify in 2020 either. It is the women getting all the publicity, it is the women being watched (if the women's final had been on during US prime time instead of the afternoon, the viewership likely would have hit record levels).
As far as the women being paid, if the men won the tournament, they would get a million bucks, if they make a million bucks, if the women win it, they get 350,000 (100k salary + 250k bonus), in terms of total compensation the men do much better if they win. Yes, if the women's team absolutely stunk up the place, they would make 100k where the men make 5k. Sure, over 10 years the women would make 1 million in base salary alone, but that is a silly statistic, because most players careers don't last that long, even in Soccer, and the fact is if they lasted that long they would have made more money as a man with similar results.
As you say, "the women who wear the nation’s colors are ambassadors on an international stage." They displayed tremendous skill in winning the World Cup for a fourth time and in that regard, did the United States proud. But I was brought up to believe that the most important thing is not whether you win or lose, but how you play the game. The U.S. team's classless display against Thailand -- wild celebrations of all 13 goals against a completely overmatched team -- reinforced all of the worst stereotypes of Americans as swaggering, ill-mannered bullies. So as "ambassadors," the team's record was decidedly mixed.
88
While that quote is great for younger athletes and children, I don't think it applies as much to professionals. Not to say that professionals should demean or bully, but critiquing the women for playing to the best of their abilities in the most important tournament of their sport seems odd.
31
@lydgate
Correct, correct, correct . . . But you are being too easy on this extraordinarily self-centered group of footballers. Even before they humiliated the Thai women with their tacky celebrations of all thirteen goals, they scored all those goals. What happened to the idea that running up the score against a weak opponent was in itself reprehensible? (And please note the dignity with which the Thai players suffered this abuse, too.)
31
Sorry, that seems a tad insulting to Thailand's team? Implying the U.S. shouldn't consider it a victory worth celebrating because Thailand's team is so "beneath" the U.S. team (which I am not saying, again this is a potential implication based on your comment).
I think the U.S. team celebrating each victory with equal vigor indicates they take each opponent seriously, which is something to be respected and shows their respect for each country's team in the tournament.
36
Why don’t we really level this playing field and have the women get picked for the men’s team? After all, there aren’t female surgeon leagues and male surgeon leagues. There are just surgeons. Why not with women’s soccer? If they’re on the same team, they will be paid the same. I assume they will make the team?
7
The other day I watched the Brewster Whitecaps play the Y-D Red Sox in a Cape Cod League game. It was a great baseball experience, made all the more special because it showcased young athletes working as hard as possible to make the major leagues. I suppose, by the Editorial Board's reasoning, they should be paid the same as major leaguers, since they were putting in the same effort and for the same result.
There's simply no logical reason why different athletes competing in wholly unrelated competitions deserve the same money for doing it, just because they all play the same sport. That doesn't mean women must make less, or be treated unfairly, or any other nonsense. But this editorial follows a line of reasoning I don't think the paper has thought through.
126
@Andy you're right. The women's team is more famous, much more successful, and wins tournaments.
I can't name a single player on the men's team, and they didn't even qualify for the world cup last year.
They are different, you're right. The women should be paid orders of magnitude more than the men.
153
@Andy
Those teams are private for-profit entities and the comparison is not appropriate.
You must have missed the paragraph where the writer explains that the national teams are paid by the US Federation (a non-profit representing the entire country). All members on both squads are representatives of the United States.
We pay our federal workers based on standard pay grades for a particular job category. Being a member of a national team should be a federal job category and, therefore, should pay equally for all individuals who are in that job category (i.e. soccer player on the national team).
40
@Anne Daniels - so should they pay the U-21 players the same, too? I mean, they're representing their country in FIFA-sanctioned international tournaments, too, so why not?
18
the women should be paid roughly in accordance to what they bring in. If they bring in more than the men, then pay them more. No one is going to argue with that. If they bring in less than the men, pay them less.
25
@Lux Completely overlooking the equal investment in promoting the sport.
2
They make it difficult to listen to on radio as well. [Me:No TV.]
I had to subscribe to Sirius FM (which is good) to listen to the Final.
Men's' soccer it on all the channels, I went nuts trying to figure out how to listen to female World Cup games. [Better games.]
FYI This is a popular product and unavailable without information and long searching gymnastics.
PUBLICIZE IT and make some money to pay the better players, eg, the women.
And pay them more, as the men are not good.
1
This editorial avoided the essential topic of 'where does the money come from'? Who would be paying the bill? Absent that, why don't these women infiltrate the men's soccer teams? If they're that good they deserve equal pay. The mantra is equal pay for equal work, isn't it?
5
I am on board with equal pay, particularly for national teams. In fact, for national teams I think it's a disgrace to do otherwise.
However, for leagues (private ownership), market factors should play a stronger role. E.g., popularity of a sport, a team, a player should factor in. Overall ticket/merchandise revenues for the league, the team, and the specific player should factor in. The player's impact to the team and the sport should factor in. Gender should not factor in.
1
The women should organize and go on a strike. Then they will realize how little they will be missed. When all the politics is removed, the bottom line is that they just don’t play too well.
9
Of course there should be equal pay and in a capitalist system the answer is obvious - bust the unions and pay the men less. (lol)
2
Should Beyonce be paid less than male performers because historically Elvis had more paying fans than Brenda Lee?
Institutional sexism, as with many other discrimination -isms, is a self-fulfilling tautology. 'We pay men more and promote them more (in both senses) because they have a fan base that is largely unaware of women because we have promoted women less. Now if those girls were cuter and wore sexier outfits, you know, beach vollyball-ish, well ...' Really? In 2019?
America has reason to be proud of the strong, beautiful women who represented them, as do the Dutch and the other contending nations. The fact that we divide sports by gender is never an excuse for pay disparity. Athletes are athletes. Pay 'em more when they win.
2
In this day and age, why are there separate leagues for men and women?
5
GREAT!! Here’s how we accomplish that: separate the two teams accounting, such that all the revenue from the women’s team goes to them, and reciprocally to the men. Let each team keep what it earns. Then, the women will do just as well, vis a vis the men, as the Liberty do vis a vis the Knicks. (The teams appear to be equally (un)successful) Neither team should subsidize the other.
Actually, “pay gaps” are leftist myths. OF COURSE players for the Liberty get less than players for the Knicks; people will pay more to see the men play. On the world cup stage, the men's tournament brought in something like $6B; the women’s tournament a few hundred mil. The better players make more. As it should be.
Once again, leftists decide to compare the incomparable. Male models make a lot less than women, because the market for women models is more robust. Is that a crime against “gender” equality?
Notice that the “solution” to the “problem” is for men to surrender what people are willing to pay to watch them pay so that women can get more despite the fact that people are unwilling to pay as much to watch them play.
Is it fair that soccer fans will pay exponentially more to watch the men’s game? OF COURSE!! It’s a much better game; people are always more interested in the varsity than in the JV.
This demonstrates, once again, that leftists really hate freedom, because they don’t like the results freedom produces.
7
There is no reason the the women can't make more than the men, if they have the right TV deal and gate. There is nothing stopping them. Of course, millions don't tune in weekly like they do for the Premiere League, La Liga, the Bundisliga, the Italian League, etc
5
Only in the US press this is news. Women’s soccer is not news anywhere else in the world. There are thousands of professional soccer leagues none of them women. Why the US media tries to make soccer a women’s sport is bizarre. By the way, do the women of the WNBA make the same money as the men in the NBA? No. Because there’s no money.
6
I'm seeing the same old tired arguments against fair pay for women's soccer that I heard in the 70s against fair pay for women's tennis. Misogyny then and now.
40
@s donahue What do you think is "fair"? Having watched two of the women's quarterfinal matches of Wimbledon today, I am left yet again wondering what is "fair pay" in tennis. One match (S Williams vs A Riske) was thrilling and very high quality -- but it gave viewers only 3 sets and around 2 hours of entertainment. The other (Konta vs Strycova) was lopsided, quick, devoid of truly exciting moments. Why should either of the victors be paid the same as men who play much longer matches? On a per-hour basis, the women tennis players earn more than the men.
5
@s donahue
Women play 3 sets, men 5. So it isn't equal pay for equal work. It's all about whining. Or shall I say screaming, like on the court.
*eyes roll*
5
Watching the Netherlands woman's team stagger to the finish like some high school soccer team on a hot day was a rather sad testament to the quality of the competition the US faces.
Our system is perfectly designed to create good women's soccer (non-professional support in grade school, high school and through college vs. the rest of the world where there is almost no non-professional support for sports) and terrible men's soccer (in the rest of the world, male players start playing professionally as early as 11 or 12 and are trained daily as soccer players something most US parents would not do).
Finally, the US Soccer Federation is already subsidizing the women's professional league creating the space for women's soccer to develop. Paying these 24 women more does NOTHING to improve soccer for women. They should take that money and invest in programs that increase participation by women of color and Hispanic women, both of which were in embarrassingly short supply on the WNST.
5
@OneView
"Finally, the US Soccer Federation is already subsidizing the women's professional league creating the space for women's soccer to develop."
Bingo! The NWSL would cease operations if the USSF did not step in and subsidize the top players. As it is, they are just hanging on treading water. The reason why the USSF pays the women players differently than the men s so that they do not have to go to Europe to train.
2
I’m not sure what game you actually watched, but I am sure that you invocation of race is simply a fig leaf over one more loud claim that men just don’t get treated decent these daya.
As far as I understand it, the main difference in pay between the women's and men's national teams currently stems from the collective bargaining agreement that came into effect in April 2017.
The women's team opted for a guaranteed base salary for their players, with additional performance bonuses, while the men's team opted to be compensated only through bonuses. Thus, according to Michael McCann, a Sports Illustrated writer and University of New Hampshire law professor, “The male players are paid when they play, but not when they sit. USMNT players must thus be on the roster to be pay eligible. USWNT players, in contrast, are guaranteed pay.” With regards to the other money paid to players, such as attendance bonuses, payment for commercial appearances and per diems, they are equal with and tied to what the men can earn.
Thus, while there obviously may be other factors in play, to me this seems to primarily be an issue of the women's team prioritizing the stability of a guaranteed salary over the higher potential reward of bonus-only payments (similar to a salary + commission vs commission only compensation for a salesman).
If that is indeed the case, I can understand "buyer's regret" with regards to how they negotiated their collective bargaining agreement compared to the men's team, but unless they are willing to give up their guaranteed salary to adopt the "bonus only" compensation model, this seems to be a case of trying to have your cake and eat it too.
6
In this past month World Women's Soccer Cup (WWSC) has turned out to be a reminder that the world doesn't have to be where Horrific pictures and unnecessary mass dislocations had to occur.Instead surprise elegance,perfection and precision in execution are attainable, and that is what the WWSC in France delivered.US's.UK's,Netherland's,Sweden's,France's,etc.,Women Soccer teams have shown that they have mastered the art of passing a long distance ball with geometric precision, being unselfish and passing the ball in time and coming up with elegantly weaved set pieces and quickness.The US's team epitomized the above qualities and they deservedly earned the WWC Trophy.Though world wide about a Bill people (1 in 7 of World Pop) watched it many who claim to be Soccer watchers were heard saying "Women's Soccer ?,no will watch instead continental Cups,etc.and that is their loss.In most parts of the World Soccer is the major sport, but a lot of times people follow mostly teams if one had wanted truly enjoyable Soccer France's World Cup event was an extremely rare opportunity.The 10 weeks after end of May is no Soc season,for us Soccer( in UK version of English influenced places Football) lovers this past month was as if it was MLS's,Laliga's,Bundesliga's,Seria's, peak Soccer season hasn't ended.Finally,These Women Soccer experts have Made Soccer even more lovable and hence for be it FIFA or National Soccer Federations making the necessary pay elevation is just returning a favor.TMD.
Earlier I defended men soccer players receiving more money because I did not realize they were getting paid to be on the Olympic team as our the men. I have since learned otherwise.
Yes as Olympians they should be paid the same and this present day maybe more. :) I thought the discussion of pay was about when they were in league play.
Currently, the women are paid to the contract they negotiated, which will run for a while longer until its time to renew it.
At that time, get whatever you can, based on whatever argument you can use.
As to the economics, the US women may drive whatever revenue they can , but collectively the women have a long way to go to match the men in TV contracts and worldwide interest.
Much like the WNBA, its often just not entertaining to watch. The stands were empty for England-Scotland. Who really wants to watch a 13-0 match at any level.
Back when Billie Jean King help take the women off the reservation to found their own tour, the women will need to show that the product they sell is worthy of the fans attention on a day to day basis. They're competing against themselves, not the men. They're not playing on the same field at the same time.
5
Like other women's sports (softball, lacrosse, hockey come to mind) there is a big difference between the American perspective and that of the rest of the world. Being the best in many of these means that your team is at the top of an exceedingly small pool, often with the deck heavily stacked via support provided through Title IX and American universities. The reverse may be true for other women's sports that are more popular internationally (water polo, team handball?) not recognized by the NCAA. Only with a severe case of tunnel vision (or the sensibilities of a 9-year-old girl) can the relative level of play, or pay, for men's and women's soccer in the U.S. be compared absent an evaluation of the quality and depth of the pools they compete in internationally. One is almost infinitely competitive and the other is still developing. Yes, the USWNT deserves more, but the stronger argument is one that advocates for substantive, broad support for women's football internationally - particularly in developing nations.
7
The US women’s team, when wearing the official colors, are salaried employees of the USA.
When as individuals, they are wearing their FC colors, they are salaried employees of their club.
Every time they represent the US, they should be paid more than the men due to the number of medals and trophies that they have brought home.
As for their club salaries, it is up to them to negotiate to the club as this would depend on eyeballs, ticket sales, merch, sponsorship, etc.
@Opinioned!
Incorrect. The NWSL do not pay the salaries of the members of the US WWC team. That would bankrupt the league. The USSF pays their salaries.
1
How many of the people commenting that the USWNT deserves more money actually watched a game from this women's world cup? How many of them watched a game outside of this world cup?
The Minnesota Lynx are probably the most successful WNBA team of the past decade with 4 championships. Does that mean they should make more money than a middling-NBA team like the Knicks?
No.
8
I totally believe in equal pay between the male and female teams.
If the male team brings in a certain amount of revenue, they should be paid an amount based on that revenue.
If the female team brings in a certain amount of revenue, they should be paid exactly the same amount as men based on that revenue.
If the mens team brings in the same revenue as the womens then they should be paid the same.
If the womens team brings in half as much revenue then they should make half as much.
It's simple math.
6
@Kev
It's really simple math. Both teams and players have binding contracts that reflect the reality of the numbers at signing. The women's contract is coming up for renewal in a couple of years.
Or are you suggesting they tear up their current contract now? Because it sure looks like that's what Rapinoe&Co support and the mediation sure puts it on the table.
6
"United States Soccer and its 28 female players suing for gender discrimination have agreed to enter mediation in the hopes of resolving the players’ lawsuit. The federation now has the opportunity to create its own clear and public example — by finally doing the right thing."
Why stop the examination and lawsuits at compensation due to gender discrimination? What about race? Even a cursory look at the WWC roster (and the photo accompanying this editorial) demonstrates the overwhelming lack of minorities on this team -- only 3 can readily be identified as African-American and none are Latina.
7
That’s on the national org—you know, the well-paid guys who’re spozed to be promoting the sport?—not the Team, unless you know something nobody else does.
@Robert Why is it not just as much on the team? Perhaps the "well-paid" promoters in the national organization are just fine with the composition of the team being mostly white. Perhaps the development pipeline minimizes, overlooks and/or doesn't invest in minority soccer programs. Don't players have a stake in challenging the national organization to promote the sport fairly and put the best team on the field? To question the fairness and representative nature of their own team? Even if it is not in their pecuniary interest to raise it in a lawsuit, isn't it an issue worth raising consciousness of on the player's social media platforms?
1
The central problem defining player pay on all teams, men and women, is only indirectly revenues. The problem directly impacting pay is player recruitment.
If the men aren't paid they will go elsewhere, because there are other clubs and they can. Where are the women going to get a better deal? Those recruitment options don't exist yet so higher pay isn't needed, except for image purposes.
On the face of it though it's hard to take claims of gender pay discrimination seriously for a team only competes successfully because player selection is based on gender discrimination. Open up recruitment to boys (or men) and then current members might have a claim. If any of them make the cut that is, which they mostly certainly would not.
Otherwise if Rapinoe and team mates want pay for work of equal value then perhaps they'll have to demonstrate a consistently higher quality game (at least to the point of beating under 15 year old boys to start, I'd say...).
Otherwise it's all just "yada yada yada". Good luck with litigation.
5
@Andy Why can't the women go and play in Europe for European club teams? It's interesting that you say the men can go play elsewhere -- a lot of them aren't good enough to play elsewhere. The US women pretty much all are, as they just proved by winning the World Cup.
Also, when a national team plays a friendly match against anyone, under 15 or not, they are playing to practice together, an opportunity they don't have that often. So they are more interested in working out kinks and understanding how to play with each other than winning. That explains why, for example, the US men's team has beaten Germany in a friendly. It doesn't mean that the US men's team is better than the German side.
1
@st louis
Wow.
1. Beyond the fact the women are paid salaries and the men are played per game (do you see the difference?) they're asking for higher pay. Where are they going to get it? In European national clubs? The mind bogggles. Good luck, that's all I can say.
2. Women don't play to the same level, they're far, far behind men's soccer even at much lower levels, including the US team. Are you attempting to dispute this? Let me connect the dots : women's teams have a credibility gap in soccer, not just a pay gap, and that has a direct impact on fan interest. Losing demonstration matches games with U15 boys only reinforces the credibility gap in the key demographic. It's not just the US team but a string of losses by national women's teams to U15 boys teams (Australia 7-0, Sweden...) The level of play is nowhere near the men's side. Let's be clear, it's up to women to up their game here, or they justifiably won't be taken seriously.
3. I get the goal is to grow the fan base, and that's great. This world cup has been fabulous for women's soccer, but let's not kid ourselves that the US women's team has arrived at that point just yet.
5
@st louis
So the US women can beat the national developmental boys teams if they want to? Do you also believe in the tooth fairy?
1
All these equal pay arguments are nothing but theoretical discussions (there is a better expression for the latter) but the resolution of the matter is easy: the entire team, coaches included, should go on strike and then the final outcome will determine how much compensation they deserve.
3
Shouldn’t there be some relationship between ticket sales and what athletes earn? If the same number of people (or more) want to pay the same ticket price (or more) to watch women’s football than men’s, then of course female players should be paid as much (or more) than male players. The same approach should apply to all sports.
4
@LD Did you miss the words "nonprofit", "national team", and "promote soccer"? The women do it better than the men in this country - they should at the very least see an equal payday.
@Multimodalmama And unless it is Playoffs, hardly anyone in the US watches the men's team either. They have more viewers in Europe for their games, than they do here in the US.
@Multimodalmama No, I didn't miss anything. In spectator sports, as in spectator-anything, what the performers should be paid should be related to how much viewers are willing to pay to watch them.
The fact that the women "do it better" is irrelevant to this argument. If the US team had NOT won the World Cup, would you change your call for equal pay?? I assume not. The point is that women and men should be paid the same for equal contribution and value of work. The economic value of a sportsperson is related to how many people wish to pay to watch the person perform.
2
The only way for women to receive equal pay would be if they generated equal revenue. Let’s face it women’s sports in general can’t compete with men on the field but the revenue generated by tee shirts and souvenirs is another story. If Megan Danoe’s tee shirts sell as well as Ronaldo’s or Neymar’s that would be a basis for extra compensation. Unfortunately the debate is becoming political which is the downfall of any sport as sure as if a game was rigged. It’s a disservice to fans who pay good money and only want to see the sport played well and its stars compensated accordingly. Equal rights, gay rights has nothing to do with it.
5
@Edward the women's team actually brought in more revenue than the men's team for the last three years. From 2016 to 2018, women’s games generated approximately $50.8 million in revenue, compared with $49.9 million for men’s games.
4
@Sona
How about giving men's and women's teams an equal percent of their respective revenues, year in and year out? FIFA would cut the women's payout from the women's Cup as it is currently much higher than a comparably successful men's teams share of Cup revenue. In years that the US men qualify for the Cup (which they usually do), their take would dwarf what the women make because the men's Cup earns VASTLY more than the women's Cup. The net result, a greater pay gap.
3
@Sona
Unless they want to tear up their contract now, that'll likely be reflected in contract negotiations.
etc etc
1
I wouldn't hold my breath for the right thing to be done. FIFA has never known to do the right thing unless they are sued and then rarely has it lived up to all of the terms.
As far as the United States Soccer Organization is concerned I doubt that mediation will come out on the side of paying the women as much as the men.
The United States has a problem with parity in general. Why would the Unites States Soccer Organization be any different
6
The US Women’s team signed a contract. That was their decision. If they don’t like the terms, they shouldn’t have signed it. Maybe they’ll argue that they didn’t have a choice. If they didn’t agree to it, they’d be replaced by other women grateful to get a chance to play on the national team. Well, perhaps that’s so, but it’s their choice to make, and they’ll get that chance again in the not too distant future.
One thing that I think US Soccer should do as soon as is practical is account for the separate revenues generated by the Men’s and Women’s teams and keep them separate for purposes of distributing to their respective programs. Television rights, sponsorship rights and obviously tickets should be accounted for separately as should the costs of their programs. This may cause extra headaches in negotiating and managing sponsorship deals, but given the heat this issue has generated, I think US Soccer will do itself a favor by being better able to separate the revenue generated by the two teams.
I’d guess that US Soccer’s goal is to make both Men’s and Women’s teams the best in the world if at all possible. For the Men, it’ll take a lot. On the Women’s side, they are already there. I’d guess Title IX and our country’s size are the reasons for their success rather than anything US Soccer has done. For the Men, we are playing catch up to nations for which Men’s soccer is a national obsession, so US Soccer has a big hill to climb in that regard.
10
This article and many others like it miss one of the most important points about sports pay: the athletes are not paid to play soccer, they are paid to sell broadcast rights, endorsements, advertisements, and jerseys.
If we paid athletes to play a sport, why shouldn't everyone make the same amount of money as Lebron James or Lionel Messi? The answer is that we aren't paying them to play a sport, we are paying them to sell products. Sports are just the vehicle.
There's more money in men's soccer than in any other sport on the planet. The USMNT is lucky to be a mediocre team in such a huge market.
The USWNT is, in many ways, unlucky to the best team in a much smaller market.
I think the USWNT should definitely make more money, but how much more should be based in large part on how much revenue the women's game brings in.
Let's please drop the "equal pay" logical fallacy.
24
Why not let the marketplace decide? How much attendance and revenue do the teams of the National Women's Soccer League generate? What does their television contract pay? Do they even have a television contract?
If women's soccer is in such demand, do they draw as much as the men? Of course they don't.
Should WNBA players be paid as much as NBA players? If there was a women's pro football league, should they be paid as much as NFL players?
Come on. The international competition for the women is weak weak weak. Thailand? Please. And the demand for women's soccer is practically nonexistent. I just went on ESPN and could not find anything on women's pro soccer.
You devalue the argument for equal pay for equal work when women want equal pay for not doing the same working or for having the same skill sets. If women's soccer had the same following as men's and the skill levels were equal, sure they should be paid the same. But no one pays attention to women's soccer except for during the world cup. And how many US fans would have watched if the US hadn't made the world cup?
This is another feel good virtue signalling editorial. But it's irrational. As is quite often the case.
19
@Ralphie it's interesting that you would compare a national level non-profit with private entity companies and come to the conclusion that "it makes sense they're paid different."
The national teams are ran by one organization. Both men and women. They're two teams under one umbrella, and that umbrella is a non-profit representing the country. That singular organization has made the decision that the salaries it's players earn is different because some players are men, and some players are women.
Media revenue aside, the base level salaries the players earn, players who all do the same thing - play soccer for the organization, are different if they're men, or women. As the article said, if both teams lose 20 games, they get paid the same. If they both win 20 games, the men earn more. Same number of games, same results, but the men earn more? Why?
If the mens team generates more revenue through media contracts, should they get a larger bonus as a revenue share of that? Maybe. But should they get a larger base salary, just because they're men? Absolutely not.
This is not the same thing as the LA Lakers vs the LA Sparks. Those are private entities, and completely separate businesses. This is one organization making a conscious decision to pay their female athletes less.
4
@Chris sorry, the market for women's players isn't equal to men's. Should nonprofit orgs pay non market wages?
3
@Ralphie
The Womens' team has won Four World Cups. Not the men's team. That shows who has the real skill sets.
It appears you are the irrational one, not this editorial.
1
"Players should get the same rewards for the same achievements, without regard to gender." This editorial would be much better without this sentence. How should we measure the achievements of a team? The women play in different competitions than the men. The squads against which the US women compete are supported far less than those against which the US men compete. The US men lost to Mexico, a soccer crazy nation with a lucrative league. They bring to bear the full sporting culture of a large nation when they play the US. The US women defeated a Netherlands squad which was participating in only their second women's world cup, because their women's program is in its infancy. Women's soccer is just not backed anywhere in the world at the level that the men's game is. This goes professionally and in international competition.
Instead, we can put aside the delusional comparisons and simply say that by paying the men and women the same, US Soccer would send a powerful global message of equality.
5
Wow, this comment section makes me want to set myself on fire.
The women played more, won more, attracted a larger audience. Those spouting about the mens’ revenue need to sit down.
13
@KRM
Or you could think a little about the arguments and make an attempt to figure out why the demand MIGHT not be entirely reasonable on the grounds you cite.
There's probably no need to take the option "set myself on fire" but if you insist...
10
@KRM
A losing NFL team shares in the revenue of the NFL because the league earns a ton of money from all league activities. A pro sports league needs more than just a champion, it needs a pool of excellent competition. Global soccer is paying participants in the men's World Cup a lot of money because the men's Cup is hyper-competitive and pulls in several billion dollars. The women's Cup makes a tiny fraction of that. Assuming equal success, the women get a GREATER percentage of their Cup revenue than men do. They are paid relatively more of the money their sport earns than the men are. This is a pretty good deal. You think; women win and they are popular in the US so they should make more than men. The reality is they are playing in a different, smaller sport (women's soccer) and they are much less popular globally, where the money is. How about we just give men and women an equal share of the revenue their sports earn? Women would instantly reject this for obvious reasons. Whose money do you plan to pay them with?
10
Revenue from the sport is the only fair metric by which to base compensation. Revenue is how all compensation is set. To base compensation on anything else is arbitrary; surely we all agree arbitrary compensation is unfair.
4
Athletes get paid what the market will bear. You can't show athletes any money if their sport doesn't generate the money.
7
No, the women are paid as little as possible to max club ROI. In a fair and just world, women would be paid much, much more, and the club owners would benefit from increased revenue-driven profits over time. Pay them a lot more now in anticipation of higher revenues from increased ticket prices and gate volumes.
5
@Another Nobody The clubs don't pay the women, the US Soccer federation does according to the editorial. The clubs can't even make enough money to pay their players.
2
@Another Nobody, Well you're wrong.
1
Rose Lavelle’s goal was the spectacular final explosion that should be mentioned and shown over and over again as one of the most resounding moments in sports history.
Or......maybe she can repeat that shot if the team does decide to visit the monster living at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
1
Equal? How about true merit-soccer-acy? A 2x multiplier seems fair in these circumstances. Congrats USWNT!
2
Winning the women's World Cup is not comparable to winning the men's cup because the competition is very weak. The Americans were the only serious team in the tournament, all others are still a sad joke. Their achievement is comparable to if the men won a world cup where they exclusively had to beat teams from countries like Fidji, Samoa or Liechtenstein.
The skill level, athleticism and speed in the women's game is objectively lower than fourth division men's soccer. I'm all for equal pay for equal work, but the equal work part of that is rather important.
14
It seems you did not see any of the competition. I watched every U.S. vs match and a few others. I respectfully disagree.
3
@GS
When the US Men's soccer team win four World cups you may have a point. But they have not, which makes the argument for equal pay even more important
3
Let the US women play the US men. If they win, we can reconsider their pay.
Fair?
3
A poster below has some interesting information in a reply.
According to him/her, Forbes published numbers showing that the last Mens WC generated 6 BILLION in revenue, with 440 million available for prize money to the players.
The Womens WC that just ended was expected to generate 138 Million with 30 million available to the players in proze money.
So, an argument can easil;y be made that our Womens team, in relative terms, is far more succesful than is our mens'. That is obviously so. However, Mens soccer as a whole generates far more revenue than does Womens'.
If the women right now are ahead of the Men, because the Men did not qualify for the last World Cup, they are far behind when all historical revenue is counted and they will be far behind again if our team qualifies for the next Worlds Cup.
14
If I do not like the contract I agreed to work under, that is MY fault. The women get a salary if they play or not, the men have to play to get paid. Then they get bonuses on top of that.
Secondly, if you look at the product on the pitch, the quality of the products are not even close to equal. The women are in a sport where they were the best (the rest of the world is catching up and some are pulling ahead), the men are at the bottom of their sport. Still there is not one woman on the US team that could "make" the men's team. That would be the true test of equality. Equal pay for equal work. These ladies are leaving that part out.
My suggestion, start negotiating the next contract so that it is more to their liking. I would also start planning for a career change if I were in their shoes. A serving of humble pie would not hurt them either. How many of their fans make $100k a year plus performance bonuses? Not many.
5
@skramsv
"Humble Pie" really. I have never noticed any men's sports teams needing to eat "humble pie".
2
What I'd like to know:
How much did the US women's team get for winning the World Cup, vs how much did the US men's team get for losing the Cup of the Americas on the same day?
And, what was the TV audience for those two games?
3
Separate contracts??...in what other industry do the men and women have different contracts working for the same employer? Do the women factory workers at General Motors have a different contract than the men factory workers.?? How is this even possible, or legal?
2
@lcr999
in what other industry? In any branch of the entertainment industry, which is what professional sports is. Entertainers can negotiate their pay based on how much revenue they draw.
4
Well, the WNBA and NBA are owned by the same company, and the pay as much as $40,000,000 to the men and this isn't brought up.
5
Norway is the perfect example of what every country should do: at the federation level, pay everyone the same. Easy. That's perfectly reasonable when you take into account the decades of descrimination in women's soccer across the planet, but I also see a lot of delusion in the USA when it comes to how difficult it is to get results.
Unlike what the USA media say, and some UK media also, women's football is deeply mediocre at the international level. The idea that you can compare men's and women's results is nonsensical when women's football has barely evolved from amateurism in most of the planet. The truth is the USWNT is not better than the men's, they win because they face much weaker opponents. The USMNT is 30th in the FIFA ranking, which sounds bad, but the 30th in the women's ranking has 1000 adult players in the whole country.
They should get the same money for the same work, but this ongoing false equivalency is embarassing for anyone who knows anything about the sport.
8
@Santos
Could it be lack of opportunity in learning the game at an early age for women compared to what men are exposed to at an early age?
1
@Jean
No-one stops women from playing other than themselves. That's a fact.
1
@Andy not at all.
If that were the fact, why are nations spending millions and millions to foster sport teams like this? Why do the nations who spend more nurturing and scouting for talent do better than other teams?
Perhaps because there is absolutely a connection between opportunity, level of investment and outcomes.
"Players should get the same rewards for the same achievements, without regard to gender."
Why limit this to players? Why limit this to gender? "People should get the same rewards for the same achievements." If the NYT thinks this makes sense, it should say so.
5
This is bald exploitation of women and it must stop now. That exploitation is in billions of lives worldwide, in subtle and disgusting ways. In their soccer victory, these remarkable women have done something us guys could never do. They give new hope to billions of women and girls and inspired them to strive for higher goals - new light has found darkness where injustice reigns.
How much is that worth FIFA? It is priceless.
3
Not equal than their male counterpart.
More.
Because as the trophies attest, they are superior than the men’s team.
2
This is a silly argument. While there is an audience for women's soccer during the world cup, maybe the olympics, there isn't much of an audience for women's soccer otherwise. Compare world wide revenue for men's v women's soccer. The women can't compete with the men on the field. Watching the women play is interesting and somewhat entertaining, but the skill level isn't the same. The women labor to dribble the ball, make smooth passes, etc. They could not beat the men 1 time in a hundred.
Part of this is because globally there are not that many women who grow up wanting to be soccer players, and spend all their time kicking a soccer ball. By comparison, millions if not hundreds of millions of boys globally want to make soccer their career, so by the time you get to the top, you've got brilliant players. The US women's soccer team wins because the ROW doesn't value women's soccer very much -- women themselves or the people who watch. Very little competition.
It's not just size and strength, it is skill. So what you are advocating is paying women the same even though they aren't competitive with men in terms of ability. That's like saying because my HS team won the state championship last year and the Giants didn't they should get more money? Ridicu.ous. Two different leagues, it's almost two different sports.
It is reasonable to argue equal pay when the profession is something that women do equally as well as men. Soccer isn't one of those fields.
8
@Ralphie
What creates the VALUE for the team? It's the relative value of their talent. People are buying jerseys and getting excited about soccer in the US because the US women are consistently on top in world rankings. The men may be technically much better, but due to the fact that they lose and fail to generate excitement, they contribute much less to getting American's excited about soccer.
The end product of soccer (and all sports) is to generate that excitement and emotion that compels people to follow a team. I'd say that winning is the most important part of that equation. Face it, most American's can't tell the finer points of the game. They just know that the American women scored and beat the rest of the world.
So right now, soccer matters in America because of these women who grabbed our attention by winning. No one really cares that the American men play better, technically, because they don't win, thus don't elicit any emotion.
1
Hey, Ralphie boy...what’s a “soccer mom?”
Men's World Cup soccer brings in over four billion dollars in ad revenue, product sales, and seating charges.
The woman's World Cup soccer brings in less than 100 million.
When the women can generate an additional $3.9 billion, then they can come back and well talk about it.
13
@Steve Crisp
Why is it that everything in this country is reduced to money?
How about bringing honor and pride to this country? That is what the women's team did. The men, not so much.
2
The tv ratings for the Women's WC Final yesterday out performed the 2018 Mens WC Final.
If anyone has been paying any attention of late regarding how good the USWNT is compared to the USMNT it is just silly time.
Oh and remember the USMNT did not even qualify for the 2018 World Cup in Russia. They got knocked out on their last qualifying game against those titans of World Futbol, Trinidad and Tobago.
I have been a devoted fan of the international futbol for over 50 years and I just love how the USWNT plays the game with passion, great technical skill, grit, team work and an unbridled desire to win unlike the USMNT who really stink and so does their new coach Greg Berhalter.
In case anyone cares and obviously the NYT does not as they did not even report on it, the USMNT last night in Chicago lost our FIFA regional competition CONCACAF final, The Gold Cup to Mexico 1-0.
USSF should pay the USWNT the same salary as the USMNT and they should seriously consider hiring Jill Ellis away to coach the USMNT.
Congratulations ladies, you did it!
1
@Futbolistaviva
"The tv ratings for the Women's WC Final yesterday out performed the 2018 Mens WC Final."
You mean the United States TV ratings for this women's Cup compared to the United States TV ratings for a men's Cup with no US participation. Big difference. And where does FIFA get the money they pay to Cup teams? Mainly outside the US.
6
Let’s hear it for the women’s team; beyond being tough, beyond being victors, they sure got the Trumpists all riled up.
2
@Robert
Actually they got this Obamaist all riled up because I am watching reactionary liberals approach every issue as an identity-obsessed child. Where are the intelligent adults? Perhaps Pete B will step up and stand out from the mob that is pandering to reactionary leftists.
1
If you want to "Show them the money", then the women need to generate more profits to augur their receiving more money.
The obverse, flip side of the coin is that if more profits aren't generated, no way anyone gets more money, regardless of gender or any other divisive difference.
The media at large, both print and TV, have changed sports into entertainment far beyond its original playing grounds.
Sport has become first a business instead of what it was intended to be: a game for its own sake.
Remember MGM's motto, "Ars gratia artis," or "art for it's own sake." The same was meant to be true for games. Now it's a lie.
6
The Editorial Board rarely fails to get it wrong because it gauges the political climate and tries to come down on the right side of popular opinion instead of thinking through the issues rationally and forthrightly.
Equal pay for equal work. Women soccer players do not do equal work. The Women’s World Cup demonstrated yet again the lack of competitiveness in women’s soccer. Only a handful of teams could generate any offense, the English the best among them. An Under 15 boys team handily defeated this US women’s national team.
The Thailand women’s team is sponsored by a sole businesswoman and gets no exposure to professional or college leagues. In other words, the Thai women players are struggling with much more serious issues of support and development, yet the Americans had no trouble rubbing it in, celebrating their lopsided victory with choregraphed routines. Morgan insisted on mocking the English with her teacup routine. Yup, these women really represent America.
Nordic nations develop competitive programs with populations of less than ten million. The US, with its population of 330 million, has the most extensive network of club and collegiate soccer programs.
Women must successfully compete against men—rather than merely dominating women—to achieve true equality. Feminine difference means competing effectively in endeavors such as figure skating, gymnastics, ballet, dance, ultramarathons—activities in which women are truly equal but with a signifying difference.
7
There is no doubt in my mind that they made a lot of money with Women's soccer this season. I watched the Women's final but not the mens. I am sure that was the case all over. So just pay up! They earned it. They deserve it.
2
I'm not a sports fan so I don't get it. Help me with the numbers on equal pay? The men's team has to recruit players that have opportunities elsewhere, so they have to provide competitive compensation. Or there isn't a team. Where's the women's leverage here beside theatrics?
Who else will hire Rapinoe or one of her nameless (to me) team mates, to play soccer at least ? And how much revenue will that team bring in?
Until women's teams can consistently beat barely adolescent boys teams, "yada yada" is Rapinoe's bigger legacy..
www.cbssports.com/g00/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage
6
Much of money the US Fed pays to players comes directly from FIFA for Cup participation and wins. In their wisdom the editorial board suggests that FIFA should be striving for pay equity for men and women. This would mean that the men's World Cup, which pulls in several billion dollars and is followed closely by billions of fans, would hand over hundreds of millions of dollars to women's teams since the women's World Cup pulls in just very small fraction of the amount men generate. Is this what "fairness" means? Is a team that dominates in a relatively small and less competitive arena (women's soccer) somehow "better" than a team that competes in a much larger and more competitive environment? The contract of a single male global soccer superstar is on a par with the revenue earned by the women's World Cup in a year. We are talking apples and oranges here. Why do NBA players vastly outearn their WNBA counterparts? Should winning minor league teams be paid more than losing major league teams? A fact: the US women are currently getting a larger percentage of World Cup revenue from FIFA than a comparably successful men's team receives for playing in the men's Cup. The women's team would never accept a formula basing FIFA pay on revenue at the global level because their pay would decrease substantially.
2
Clearly, equal work demands equal pay. when they go to the white House will they be given smaller sandwiches? Sliders versus Big Macs? Maybe they need a union. As soccer and soccer revenues grow, they need a set at the table, not be servers.
2
The men, if they feel underpaid, can elect to play in any one of the many soccer-playing countries that will accept them.
Note: home grown soccer players often find themselves at the bottom of the pile overseas. All-American players have been known to have difficulty on semi-pro and company-sponsored teams, let alone top flight outfits.
I suspect that the women's pay will rise only when other countries have sustainable leagues where they can go to make more money.
This is not a new problem for men or women. In soccer-mad Britain pro players in other sports have to ply their trade in Europe to earn a living.
2
1) It is richly ironic that this should be treated as a gender pay discrimination issue, given that the very sport of Women's soccer depends on blatant gender discrimination.
2) Do you maintain that the other discriminatory national soccer teams should also receive equal pay? The U18 squad? The paralympic team? If not, why not?
12
I appreciate the level of discourse here on the comment board. Many are well thought through and provide additional perspective.
3
Here we go again, letting politics interfere with a sporting event. It would have been better if Ms. Rapinoe had stood for the anthem. I think that is true especially when our team in outside our country, but then it's her choice.
5
@Steve, which is never mentioned in this article. In fact, there is no mention whatsoever of anything political except to say that the US women's team has represented US women's soccer on the national stage. In fact, the only one mentioning the anthem (which Rapinoe has stood for since 2016) is you.
7
@Steve
what does one's political leanings have to do with earning a fair day's pay for a fair day's work?
I think nothing at all.
You know Rapinoe DID stand for the anthem during the Tournament, correct? You're not working off old news reports, yes? You're the one inserting politics as an excuse to pay the more successful US players less
@Steve
Thank you for correcting me.
Pay back the taxpayer first. She supported most of the minor league development from kindergarten up. Get local, state and federal government out of sports. Stop all tax breaks. FIFA is an illegal monopoly. Make all TV sports optional. Then talk about sharing the profits. The old amateur system was more interesting. These are games for kids not the oligarchs. Endorsements are beyond comprehension.
All the kids that didn't quite make it but competed should get a share based on minimum hourly wage.
3
Why do women's professional leagues struggle? Everyone knows that the people make choices with their wallets. Professional women sport's leagues pay less than men's leagues because they generate much less income. However, I do think a non-profit will have a tougher time defending that position because profits don't dictate salaries. So our national teams should get equal pay but that should not change the natural compensation inequity predicated on profitability in professional sports.
4
@dudley thompson Most of US Soccer's income is from sponsorships, not from income specific to the men. Yet it spends much more money on the men.
7
@dudley thompson The USWNT team generated similar revenue as did the USMNT. Furthermore, do you know according to Nike which team has sold more Soccer Jersey than another team including professional men's or women's, the USWNT. Yes, that's right, the USWNT.
Glossed over in this column is the mention of a "contract." The women's team has a collectively-bargained deal that was based on years where the men's team brought in more revenue. With the women's success and the men's lack of redently, those revenue numbers now give a slight edge to the women's team. Of course, that should be reflected in the next contract when it is negotiated but does it mean that the originally negotiated deal gets torn up?
5
The US Federation can, and probably should, pay the women the same amount as the men for playing in a World Cup. But as many comments have pointed out, this will not correct the "pay gap", only because men's soccer is just more popular. The US likes to be capitalist, until it doesn't. Rihanna earns more money than my musician brother in law because more people listen to her music. There's no correcting that pay gap. The debate has become a little silly. The first NYT news piece about the Gold Cup final was titled "US Men Fail to Follow Women, Lose Gold Cup Final to Mexico". Really? No straight news reporting, like "US Men lose final to Mexico"? We're now comparing the men to the women? To a certain extent, these are like two different sports, with different publics and followings. The Federation should treat both teams equally, but let's not get irrational about this.
13
@Diego
They're not really two different sports as much as the major and minor leagues of those sports.
Unless anyone unironically believes that a league with no gender restrictions would have a single woman player making the cut.
3
@Diego Most of US soccers income comes from sponsorships, not the earnings of the men's team.
Considering the direction of flow which events are taking, it’s a good thing to modernize and even-out the playing field including the pay scale when it comes to sports. Same pay and accolades for same level of skill makes sense. Everyone would agree with that. That would even solve the LGBTQ problem within sports wherein, especially in cases of male to female transition, there are sometimes remaining advantages, as we have seen in track & field events reported in the news. Of course the combining of sports in pay and ability would tend to tip the scale towards men always being first, second and third, assuming there was just one team to be on. Indeed, if there was true equality within the guidelines of skills, there would be no professional women’s soccer! Those are the cold, hard facts!
Considering professional cheerleaders, however, we can easily recognize just how ruthlessly cold and cheep male dominated sports owners can be. A woman who trains herself in dance and choreography over years, competes and is successful against similarly skilled women to be selected as a major sports team cheerleader should not be receiving slightly above minimum wage and a cold handshake when the pro team owners are paying their players millions!
@William Perrigo, no arguments about the skills and training for professional cheerleaders. But they line up and fight and audition for those jobs knowing that they will be disrespected and underpaid.
What will drive up cheerleaders' worth is talented young women refusing to be cheerleaders under the current conditions. And, apparently, that isn't happening.
1
It is my understanding that the contracts in which men and women's soccer players are significantly different (bases, incentives, bouss, etc). While this doesn't mean that men and women are paid the same, it does mean that to try and directly compare their wages is relevant. To truly achieve equality, disband the separate unions and form a single soccer player's union with both men and women in it. Let the new union negotiate a common work contract. That might achieve real equality.
5
The US Women's Soccer Team has repeatedly lost to teenage boys in scrimmage matches. They are not "equal" to the Men's team in either athletic ability, revenue generation, or audience.
USWNT lost 5-2 vs FC Dallas U-15 (14 year old kids) in 2017
USWNT lost 8-2 against the Men's national U-17 team before the last Olympics.
Let's not kid ourselves here.
47
It did make me chuckle when I heard one sports commentator, a former-US Women’s national team member, refer to the US Women’s team as not just one of the best women’s teams ever but as “one of the greatest sports teams ever.”
2
Female doctors and male doctors both do the same job. They are interchangeable because they are equal, so should be compensated equally.
Female soccer players and male soccer players both play soccer but do not have the same job. They are not interchangeable because they play different sports, women's soccer and men's soccer.
A sport with a men's and a women's division is not a field like medicine or finance, where every "player" is equal. It's kind of like a softball player and a baseball player, or a veterinarian and a doctor, where they perform very similar tasks but are not interchangeable and shouldn't necessarily be be compensated equally.
27
@JRT Different sports? Are you kidding? Wow... former player here.
The US men should be paid more because there is more competition for making the men’s team. According to some estimates, there are two million more male soccer players in the US than woman players. To make the men’s team requires a man to outperform many more competitors for a position on the team roster.
7
@Matt Williams and yet, the US men's team is not particularly good.
I wonder if the USWNT plaintiffs will settle similar to what Colin Kapernick and his associate did with the NFL? Rapinoe and the others named in the suit are seeking equal pay going forward. However they are also seeking back pay as relief for themselves and the plaintiff class. Since, these players all have a shelf life , as did Kapernick, it may behoove them to take the money and run with a settlement that does not truly change the revenue sharing greatly.
1
The irony here--and what should be obvious to anyone who watched the US Men's Team play Mexico in the Gold Cup Final, is that the overall quality of the US Women's Team is superior to the US Men's Team.
4
Relative to what ? The number of quality and depth of women teams at the world level in many team sports is the square root of what is found in men’s sports. Soccer, basketball, lacrosse, ice/ field hockey, rugby etc. In women’s sports there are usually eight nations or less than are head and shoulders above the others and win, win, win easily. In men’s sports, even if the champions are consistent , the competitive level among the top 20-30 nations is solid.
11
@Scott Manni, Because they beat a team from Thailand so badly? There is so little competition in women's soccer. I'll say this, they had the harder route to the finals playing England, France and Spain, though.
3
Just divide it into United States Soccer, Men's and United States Soccer, Women's, two separate tax exempt organizations, and let them pay their players with the receipts of each.
Problem solved, right?
If the women bring in more more money and sponsorship through their victories, they should get more. If not, no.
21
If ‘profitability’ of the sport has been the basis for denying these female champions equal
pay- then it should be clear by now that these women should be paid far MORE than their male counterparts.
1
@Lynn
I think you're confusing achievement with profitability. Yes, the US women's team is far more successful than the men's. Good for them. However, broadcasting rights and sponsorship deals for the men's world cup are much more profitable, because the world-wide audience is much much larger than for the women's event.
5
The solution is relatively simple. Give male and female footballers the same percentage of the gross receipts like other American professional sports teams through collective bargaining agreements.
9
According to an article in Forbes, the women get a higher percentage of the revenue made by women’s soccer than the men get from men’s soccer.
7
@ERT That is absolutely true. The last men's World Cup generated $6 billion in revenue ($440 million to the players). This women's World Cup is estimated to generate about $138 million with $31 million going to the players. Yes, US Soccer can do more, but the revenue disparity in the sports are vast.
3
If the outcomes to future Women’s Soccer games are similar to the Thailand game, it will be difficult to for them to maintain viewership to justify lucrative contracts for the future.
Furthermore like it or not, the World Cup final games gained viewership based on the Trump factor due to the online feud with MR.
Ask the average American to name one or two the teams in Women’s Professional Soccer league and most answers will be on par with the Thailand’s goal tally against the US...
6
@MDCooks8 this conveniently overlooks the outcomes of the 3 matches that came after the Thailand blowout.
@MDCooks8
Ask an average American to name any players on the Men's team past or present and see what you get. Then ask them to name Women's team players.
It'll be the score of the Thailand game and you know which group will be zero, right?
1
@MDCooks8 The United States beat Spain, France, England and the Netherlands 2-1, 2-1, 2-1 and 2-0, yet you're reaching back a month to a match against Thailand in an attempt to prove a very weak point.
"Players should get the same rewards for the same achievements, without regard to gender." Exactly.
3
@Harry
These jobs are not the same. The competition and skills in the men's division are far greater than the women's. By the time the next women's world cup comes around the competition will be stronger.
The US women's team negotiated a contract and now do not want to live with it. This is not about equal pay for equal equal work. Nobody is forcing these women to play.
8
@Harry
Agreed, and the most direct way to accomplish that would be to remove the word "Men's" from the title of one team, and open tryouts to all, regardless of gender. Let's see who achieves equally.
4
In professional sports women don’t do the “same work” as men, so they should not be compensated as much. Not even men necessarily do the same work as other male players as if they were butchers or assembly workers. Sports figures generally are contract players. Their pay depends on their value to the team and its owners in terms of their skills and star power as measured in the revenue they generate. By the logic of this editorial all players no matter how talentless or unable to attract fans would have to be paid the same as if they were hourly workers. Not even their unions insist on that.
21
@Edward Well, by your logic, the women should make more than the men. A team that wins the world cup certainly displays more skills and star power (relative to its competitors) than a team that doesn't even qualify for the tournament.
6
Relative to its competitors, but they are no competition for men. In fact the US team regularly loses to U-15 boys in scrimmage matches.
3
@James Lee
Please think for just one moment. Is a female boxer who wins a championship more skilled than a male boxer who is a ranked contender without a title? Does the quality and depth of competition matter? This is the situation with women's soccer at the global level. The US women dominate a sport that is vastly smaller than men's soccer. It's great that they win all the time but it is in no small part a reflection of their competitive environment. The men compete in a soccer-mad world loaded with hyper-competitive superstars.
4
I have read arguments in these comments that point out how much more physically dominant male players are than female players. Were they to be matched against each other, there would be no competition whatsoever. True enough, and I myself make the same point when objecting to Caster Semenya (biologically XY) being allowed to compete against female runners (XX) and winning nearly every time. This is predictable. A top female athlete cannot biologically compete against even a decent male athlete in any physical sport. However, this is a red herring that distracts from the unrelated issue of unequal compensation. Then men's teams and the women's teams are NOT playing against one another.
10
@E.D.
Since the men and the women are not doing the same exact job, there is no expectation of the same pay. Thanks for pointing that out.
2
US Women's Soccer demonstrated once again that we are the best in the world.
The Problem is that World Cup Men's Soccer generates more prize money. If you look at the revenue generated by the Women's World this year you'll find that the Women Soccer players get a higher percentage than the men.
The US Women have laid the foundation. In the future, there are going to have to be more teams at that play and have the level of success that the US Team has had.
More competition will generate more sponsors and then more prize money.
15
I disagree with the Board. Revenues should matter. If you're bringing in more money you should get paid more. Major league sports in the US pay their players a set percentage of revenues, usually around 50%. Their unions insisted upon this.
Actors and actresses get paid more for blockbuster movies. Entertainers and athletes reap what they sow. To guarantee payments regardless of revenues is to treat soccer players like ordinary employees. But they aren't flipping burgers. The profits depend on them. And they are unlikely to play for a very long time. They should be paid like other professional team athletes -- based on the earnings they generate.
18
Congratulations to the US Woman's team for winning the World Cup. It's s a great achievement.
Just a few observations. One female soccer internationally is not nearly as competitive. Female participation and enthusiasm for playing is much lower throughout the world. So the American woman by their much greater participation have a large advantage which the Europeans only now are closing in on. But other countries like in South America (powerhouses in men's soccer) are competent but not leaders. With men soccer every team can be dangerous including a small team like Iceland or Croatia. In woman's soccer, there are only a few good teams. Just look at the US woman's thrashing of Thailand as an example.
No woman's soccer is not nearly as competitive. It also doesn't attract the same money for playing competitively. Just compare Pulsic's new salary ($75 million over 5 years with Chelsea) with the combined salary of the entire US woman's team. It's obvious that the private market is willing to pay the men's team much more with regard to playing soccer. In the end, people pay to see the best. Men's soccer is the highest level in the world and their pay should reflect that fact.
24
So, equal pay is easy. The numbers are there.
The equal work part is the devilish detail. Based on revenue, skill, trophys, social justice, practice schedule, shoe size, FIFA rank, or speed in the 100, true pay equality will be as elusive as a home field advantage against Mexico in Chicago.
Certainly the pride we feel this week must translate into better pay for the CUP WINNERS. Hopefully, the USWNT display of lavish skill, physical toughness, unimaginable will, and obvious team spirit will nudge the men with the Benjis toward investment (and better management) in the NWSL as well.
Any player, male or female, should get a share of the profits, depending on their individual performance.
No profits, no salary. Big profits, big salary.
8
This team lost to a 15U teen boys team from Dallas 5-2. They may play the same game, but they do not play the same level of competition.
33
@Moe should featherweight boxers be paid less than heavyweights?
There are different levels of competition across many sports. Including weight classes, sex, singles vs doubles, among others.
I'm not sure what you're arguing. You think all athletes should go into a giant arena and fight each other, and whoever is left standing is the one that gets the salary?
Men don't compete against women, doubles teams don't compete against singles players. Would you say a doubles team should get paid more than Serena Williams because they can probably beat her? That's silly.
This is nonsense. Who is going to pay them, the NY Times editorial board? FIFA, who will have to be the one to pay them gets revenue in the billions for men's soccer, in the millions for women's.
Don't forget this is an international sport, not a US sport. Every game they play is with a foreign team. The US is very small in the overall picture, but the overall picture is where all the revenue comes from.
Forbes reported yesterday that the men's round in Russia generated $6 billion in revenue, in the current four year round the women are expected to total $131 million. Less than 5% of what the men pull in.
They are not being discriminated against, in fact they are getting a higher percentage of the revenue than the men are. If anything they should get a pay cut.
54
@Egl I doubt these leagues and organizations are hurting so much for money that they can't raise the salaries of 44 very famous individuals.
1
@Evanbut why should they? there is no good reason. Because women have been discriminated against in the past is not a good reason, it has nothing to do with this.
1
At least equal? Really. I would think equality in college enrollment would be more important than sports. Black makes attend college at an alarmingly low rate compared to black women. The same is true with all races. And the question is that women athletes should be paid more?
4
This is a discussion that is more complicated than it is presented. Yes, women and men should receive the same pay for the same work but professional soccer for women and men is not the same. This is not to denigrate the feat that the USWNT just achieved. It was truly great. The male US soccer team is not very good by international standards while the the USWNT surely is, and by that standard it would seem fair that the women are paid better than their male counterparts.
..... and the notion of US soccer being for non-profit is laughable.
4
I’m a devoted fan of both the men’s and women’s teams and have been for 20+ years. I love them both. I’m somewhat more optimistic on the prospects of the men’s team over the women’s in the next 4-8 years for a host of reasons, mostly over the depth/quality of the player pool at younger ages, the rise of MLS academies over the last 5 years, and the recent rise of European women’s clubs, which are outpacing US private investment. For that reason, I would be careful to base pay on recent success, because if the roles reversed in 2022/23 or 2026/27, most wouldn’t then be arguing women should be taking a pay cut, which is the logical outcome of many of these comments.
That said, here is my mediator’s proposal, some easy, others more contentious depending on your views of market economics:
(1) Equal Conditions: Same quality of fields (not turf), travel/hotel accommodations, & per diems.
(2) Equal Comp/Game: The fact that the woman are paid a fixed salary and the men aren’t has to be considered but players should get equal total base comp per game.
(3) Equal Marketing: USSF should market games equally and provide equal support for the growth of the game on both sides. If anything, it should be skewed to the women because of the lack of private investment there.
(4) Equal Revenue Sharing %: The men’s and women’s teams should get the same % cut of the gate or the profits.
(5) Equal WC Bonus Allocation: FIFA’s $ pool isn’t the same but should divvied using the same method.
7
@Tinho
"FIFA’s $ pool isn’t the same but should divvied using the same method."
Instant pay CUT for women as their sport generates relatively modest dollars globally. Equity in global revenue sharing would mean much lower pay for women. That doesn't play well with the NYT slant. Their arbitrary and biased notion of equality feeds right wing criticism of liberals.
1
US SOCCER employs 44 women soccer players - with guaranteed salary benefits. The USWNT is drawn from those 44.
Men who play for US - are paid as independent contractors - get paid only if they play.
So who exactly do the women want to be paid the same as?
The millionaires who play in the English premier league play and train almost year round. And there is big TV bucks that fund their salaries.
The womens world cup was a lot of fun to watch - but it is a 4 week phenom every 4 years.
19
@Asher
Look into this, the Women do not have the same opportunities to train and esp play all year. Unless Europe for peanuts cp. men.
Their U.S.Nation team plays far fewer games than the men.
Complaining that the US Women's Team makes less than the US men's team is a lot like complaining that the best team in in the CFL (Canadian Football League) makes less than the worst team in the NFL. The revenue generated by the two leagues isn't even close. Men's soccer pulls in far more. If we started paying players the same way based on an equal algorithm then the women would have to take massive pay cut.
39
@I want another option: A good reason not to watch men's soccer games!
I am so excited for this team: the way they played, handled the media and represented their country.
They are American Heroes and I salute them.
Well done!
7
How is revenue not the right measuring tool when determining pay?
If you paid the same reward money to all the women’s teams as you did men’s teams, it would be ludicrous.
The men generated 6 billion in rev, women are projected to generate 131 million. Men’s teams divide 400 million between them, if you were to pay women equally you would be paying them almost 4 times their output.
In what world does that make sense???
This has everything to do with revenue nothing to do with social justice.
60
@Moe I don't know where you got your figures, but that's not the women's problem in any case. It's the federation's problem to solve. The women play under the same soccer federation as the men, play the same game, on the same size pitch, under the same rules. As a nonprofit, the U.S. federation has no leg to stand on here. Stop using this bogus argument that the women shouldn't be paid the same as men for doing the same work. Furthermore, if the women received equal treatment, it's likely that the level of play would rise, resulting in even larger audiences and even more revenue.
20
@John Conroy Yes and the US team would play more games.
1
Those numbers are fifa figures which this whole argument is about. Furthermore, playing the same game does not entitle them to get the same pay. Internationally crowds pay astronomically more money to watch men play than they do with women. Attendance numbers are also way higher for men. It is the highest level of comp that people are after. It would be incorrect to say the women could beat our men’s team, the women lost to a Dallas teen boys team 5-2. Not on the same level.
I would also encourage you to look up what top women players on the national team get paid vs top men, roughly the same.
8
Pay them the same as the men. And then challenge the men to rise to the same incredible level as the women, both on and off the field. If they're even capable of it.
19
@Jonathan Rodgers I was a Div I strong safety and in the dawning era of women's college basketball, some friends on campus, female basketball players, met with us for an afternoon of basketball, a picnic, music, etc. I know this is anecdotal, but we had to slow down the game, "play nice" in order for us all to have fun, with women in the game. Do you even have a clue how much skill and athleticism a top male soccer player has?
20
@Jonathan Rodgers
At what point in this debate about pay for the women's national team did we start bashing the men? And why?
The USMNT is a mediocre team in the most competitive sport on the planet - men's soccer. It is the number one sport in almost every single nation on earth (except the US) attracting the top athletes, investment, and levels of competition.
Stop bashing the men. It's completely uncalled-for.
2
As any team knows, respect and admiration is earned. The men are, as you say, mediocre. The women are four time world champions, twice consecutively. They are also icons for social change and inspiring role models for young girls around the world, not just the U.S.
It's not a bash of the men. It's a challenge for them to rise to the level of accomplishment that the women have. Love to see them both on top of, and changing, the world.
Sorry, but women's soccer doesn't yet have the audience of men's soccer, and the self-centered behavior of some of the players makes them less appealing for endorsements, etc. They brought this ambivalence on themselves.
15
@Michael Livingston’s: Self-centered? Have you ever seen Neymar get fouled? One thing I love about women's soccer is that they don't roll around on the field after every real or make-believe foul.
2
@Michael Livingston’s
In the USA it certainly has the audience and more than the Men's team.
@Sally
I know. The drama of Italy or the men's teams. I play squash and we have an expression when someone has to tie their shoe all of the sudden. "tireding their shoe". Meaning, they need a breather. That's what I think of when the men's dramatic barely fouls go on for eternity.
Some of these women were lacking in maturity and were an embarrassment to our nation. They lacked grace and did not always represent the best of America. I was rooting for them at the start but at the end wanted any country to win but America. They did not always put their best foot forward. Maybe they can improve by the time the next World Cup rolls around. One can only hope.
21
Yeah!
They cannot come up to the level of dignity exhibited by our President, who...
Oh, wait. i may have spotted a teeny flaw.
1
Yeah, by all means let’s have the women’s team coming up to the same high levels of everything as FIFA, the NFL, A-rod, and the Catholic Church.
And of course Donald John Trump, who earned all that he hath by the sweat of his modest brow, “pouring dry-wall,” on one if his daddy’s sites for a big, big six weeks.
Personally I had hoped for better, and saw it.
1
US rowers have undoubtedly achieved more than our men’s soccer teams. Show them the money, too.
16
And archers, shooting sports. The list goes on. Sorry but in this context, sports are entertainment. Pay is based on market value. Who is paying American archers, rowers or shooters?
1
BPS,
It would have been better if Megan Rapinoe had waited until she was on American soil before making her criticisms known. It was a bit tasteless for her to do it in front of millions of viewers and thousands of attendees. It was all about her and she wanted to stand out among the crowd. Her performance was quite juvenile and immature.
22
@KMW... You saw a different WC Tournament than I did... I saw Megan Rapinoe holding every trophy you can hold yesterday... WC Trophy... Golden Boot (highest goal scorer)... Golden Ball (most outstanding player in the tournament)... And she was the Most Outstanding Player in a WC Final!
All the while, she was confronting a misogynistic bully with words and actions instead of Twitter and fighting social, racial, and financial injustices on and off the pitch. Dissent is patriotic, on whatever platform you have.
She did rather well, if you ask me.
Yeah! It’s not like Trump squatted on our honored dead in Normandy and attacked his fellow Americans!
Oh, wait.
It is exactly like that.
@KMW
"all about her" . . . exactly
Alex Morgan has had endorsements from Nike, McDonald’s, Nationwide, etc. Does she share it equally with all of her team members? It’s all equal pay since they all play soccer. If that sponsorship is higher paying than any of the men’s team members, would she share it? Maybe she already does but I would be surprised.
Maybe the author should encourage people to go out and spend more of their money on jerseys, tickets, etc and spend more of their time watching the women’s game. Both the women’s World Cup and the women’s professional league. The people who support equal pay should put their money where their mouth is.
If revenue increased for the women’s game to equal or exceed that of the men’s, This would stop all of the naysayers who claim revenue disparity and it would truly be equal pay.
35
@Jay Free. you obviously are not informed as well as you could be to make this comment. research it dude.
@Jay Free https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-womens-soccer-games-out-earned-mens-games-11560765600
I'm just going to keep pasting this link in to every single dude that alleges that women don't bring in as much revenue as the men's team. No one cares about a men's team ranked 25th out of 50. They are not earning. And that doesn't even begin to address that the women's team has to practice in conditions inferior to the men's team, doesn't get the same level of health care the men get, etc.
The women's soccer team has done a remarkable thing, and deserves all the recognition and accolades that it's getting.
But this op-ed too blithely dismisses the revenue issue. Wishing revenue is not the measuring stick does not make it so. The stated purpose of the nonprofit is not the real purpose. Its real purpose, of course, is money, but it says otherwise to protect its tax-exempt status. Men get paid more because their team is more valuable from an economic standpoint. That is the beginning and the end of the inquiry as far as pay is concerned.
I don't endorse that state of affairs. I don't like it one bit. But if you're going to write an entire op-ed devoted to the issue, you can't just bypass that reality as quickly as this piece does.
57
@Kevin
A billion people watched the FIFA women's world cup. As the editorial stated, the more success you earn, the greater your pay should be. The American women are remarkable, strong, and produce "the beautiful game."
The sky's the limit for these women! Instead of male sour grapes with remarks about men and economic worth, celebrate this extraordinary team.
19
@Paul Dresman
The 2018 FIFA men's world cup made $6 billion dollars. The 2019 FIFA women's world cup is currently projected to make $131 million. So as a percentage of revenue generated we are already paying the women far more than the men.
32
@Paul Dresman That's a huge audience for a premier world event. The finals in women's soccer happens every few years. What that doesn't mean, Paul, is that any top tier women's soccer game is equal in entertainment value to a top tier men's soccer game. Not more than the WNBA is the equal of the NBA. People packed the stadiums to see a man who could fly, Michael Jordan. They don't pack WNBA arenas to see a game played mostly below the rim. So, too, for women's soccer. It's slower, less dynamic, weaker shots and less athleticism.
6
It’s called equal pay for equal work and makes no sense in the context of team sports. But there’s nothing preventing the USWNT from using their popularity and going on strike.
6
@Louis
The article stated that their contract doesn’t allow them to strike.
2
There are so many points in favor of the women making as much, if not more than the men, I'm actually confused about what the reason is for them to make less. I'm a business owner -- and a woman, in case it matters -- so I could see certain circumstances in which maybe, *maybe*, paying them less would be justified, even if it were just due to outdated rules or policies.
But so far, it seems like the women bring in more revenue, they are much more highly ranked, they are more successful -- and this, despite having worse working conditions, health care, etc. -- and even the men's team is saying they also want the women to have equal pay, so it's not like there's opposition that the federation would have to deal with.
So what exactly is the reason that US Soccer is giving for why the women should not earn what the men earn? Is there even one -- other than legacy sexism?
13
@L No, the women don't bring in more revenue. The men do, by quite a large margin since women's soccer, even in a good year, does not attract spectatorship at the same level as men's soccer does. The NYT piece glosses over this by protesting that revenue shouldn't matter. But that is a naive stance. As a female physician, if I see fewer patients per day compared to my male peers, I will be paid less, because I am bringing in less revenue. Maybe there "should" be different yardsticks, but it's silly not to expect basic business principles to apply.
77
Over the last 3 years, the USWNT has brought in more revenue. Nike just announced that their best selling US Soccer jersey ever is that of the USWNT.
So much for that argument.
20
@Barbara The USMNT is funded in large part by FIFA men's global revenue. So, the much better male stars of Germany, Brazil, and other teams are in effect giving up pay so that the USMNT can compete. If you just compare the men's and women's teams of our nation you are missing the logic. If you DO want to use your logic, than you should argue that Rapinoe, Morgan and others need to forgo any increase in their paychecks to support developing women's teams in other countries. That point is being lost here. Have you ever wondered why WNBA players are payed less than NBA? At some point, you have to accept Mary May's point--there are basic business principles at work here.
11
I do not think that some of the women soccer players were the best ambassadors for America. Their behavior at times was quite anti American such as when Megan Rapinoe would not salute our flag. She was also quite disrespectful to President Trump which will be remembered long after she stops playing the game. These certainly are not the perceptions in which we want our country to be associated with. These are quite embarrassing and these women were not the best role models for future generations. We can do much better than this.
9
@KMW protesting and speaking out against historical inequities and wrongs is the most American thing one can do. Why would Megan Rapinoe support a President that has done nothing to earn that support or respect, especially as it pertains to LGBTQ rights? Respect is earned, not awarded merely because of a title and that man has done absolutely nothing to earn it. These women are role models for all Americans and I love it.
174
BPS,
Megan Rapinoe had plenty of time to protest American policies once she was back on American soil. She took away from the celebration of winning and it was all about her. This is what many will remember and it does not speak well for our country. Ever hear of the ugly American?
I don’t remember Republicans squawking so much about respect when Obama was president.
If you cared about respecting the White House, you should have voted to put a person worthy of respect in it.
9
Maybe in these circumstances US Soccer should pay them equally, but ultimately this isn't a good analogy to the gender pay gap. This isn't a case of two marketing managers at the same company earning different salaries due to gender. These are entertainers. Nobody has the right to play soccer and get paid for it, people have to be willing to pay to see them. Same for any sport. It's more than just "deserving" it; that money has to come from somewhere. And winning doesn't change that the women's world cup draws much less attention and revenue, and that's where the money comes from.
58
The women certainly drew more attention from American audiences since they actually appeared in the World Cup!
6
The PTI guys said that the women should she paid MORE than the guys. The only problem is that USSFget more for the WOmens World Cup than it does for the men. To the contrary.
Nor do many people turn out to actually watch the womens’ pro league.
Maybe this Cup will change that, but the 99 Cup did not and neither did the 15. They -played great and I wish them well, but
Outside of the Cup every four years the reality is that nobody pays much attention.
17
They just want equal pay, and eventually it will happen — as it should.
In the meantime, most players’ compensation will be just fine with endorsements and other opportunities that only such elite groups have access to.
The real question remaining for me is the issue of sportsmanship. If they get the money they want will they deliver a more humble product? Never mind gender, you can’t buy class— at any level of play.
11
Telling women they need to be more humble is exactly why these op-eds must be written.
@No One Why is bursting with pride at a life dedicated to their love of the sport bad sportsmanship? Showboating? Why aren't there threads on here every time a football players dances I the end zone after everyone bones got crunched on the way there. Sexism. So silly. Go girls! Showboat. You can beat anyone! Own it.
"United States Soccer is a nonprofit, exempted from taxation because it serves a social purpose: “To make soccer, in all its forms, a pre-eminent sport in the United States.”
Obviously women should be paid the same as men.
I was just wondering about that "social purpose" making United States Soccer a non-profit and exempt from taxation.
This seems to be a business; the social purpose seems to be rather flimsy, and my guess is that profit is what drives the industry.
22
Virtually all ‘not-for-profit’ exempt organizations have finances that operate similar to normal profit driven businesses. They have inflow and outflow and a net cash balance afterwards. That net cash balance - be it a university, a church, a think tank, a sports federation builds a massive endowment usually. Meanwhile it is free to pay within reason - could be seven figure - salaries etc to its directors.
I really wish they did not have to go to mediation I wish they could take them to a real court with real judges and not some hush Court. I think that this needs to be on full display and all parts of it must be disclosed because there is no reason why in 2019 that pay gaps between men and women should even exist. but this is America nothing makes sense in 2019 because we have not concerned ourselves with equality. Instead, we have concerned ourselves with making sure we uphold class discrepancies and racial disparities which makes up the status quo patriarchy just look at our income inequality from top-down it is atrocious this is not the society of equality it is far from it. FYI none of those moderate Democrats are going to do anything about it, especially not pelosi.
3
@Amaka
The women agreed to mediation. It doesn’t mean there will be an agreement without a trial. Mediation is not arbitration.
2
@Amaka
You might want to learn a wee bit more about mediation. It's a process to help the parties who know the most about an issue negotiate in a collaborative way to get at least some of what they want, instead of all of what they want (or none of what they want in "real courts").
"Real courts" and "real judges" can only apply the law as they interpret it rather than adjudicate on the very real nuances and details of the issues. They cannot know the substance of the dispute nearly as much as the parties can, and each side could "lose".
In most cases holding mediation sessions does not prevent the parties from returning to adversarial court proceedings should they fail in their discussions.
A good friend of mine who's an experienced attorney and a fellow mediator loves to say, "in court you may not get justice, but you will get law".
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@Shamrock
And arbitration is not necessarily binding arbitration.
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The USWNT has been catching our attention since at least 1999, if not 1991. The men have been embarrassing us for most of that time. The women deserve more money just for the way they've represented us on the international stage for all those years. Title IX was a great start, finish the job.
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@David Biesecker
To say any athletic team is an embarrassment says more about the speaker than the team. I played at the highest level in the Big Ten. I respected every opponent and coach at every level I played. Some beat me and but most lost to me. That’s the way it’s done. The right way. None of this “embarrassment” baloney.
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@Mike James
It is indeed embarrassing to not qualify for the world cup. It's embarrassing that they get paid more then the women's team.
I'll agree that our ire shouldn't be directed at the players themselves, but it's an embarrassing system that provides more money to the team that doesn't have any level of competence or popularity compared to the women
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@David Biesecker
"Deserve more money"? Compensation is based on how valuable the players are. If we paid players for how they represent America and social issues, Colin Kaepernick should be the most highly paid NFL player.. but he lost his job.
The USMNT is unlucky to be a mediocre team in the most competitive sport on the planet - men's soccer. They are lucky, however, that men's soccer is the most lucrative sport on the planet.
Women's soccer is another thing entirely - we only hear about it once every 4 years.
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