Part 4: Poland’s Culture Wars

This material had been shared with me by my Chinese colleague who was concerned about what is happening here... Really good journalist work!

Keep the great work ! Please keep talking about what’s happening in Europe, with a POV of a lot of countries! Thank you

Democracy was invented to protect minority views, contrary to what we think democracy might be.

I think the last minute revelation is the most prescient. There are two views of “democracy”. Taken in an indirect but much bigger, and much more important is the idea that we are facing in the world right now: Is “western” democracy the ONLY acceptable form of democracy? In other words , if Islamic people democratically elect an Islamic government is that democracy? The “war” the west , and especially the US, is fighting is that “our” form of democracy IS Democracy, all others are frauds and need not apply. Chinese “democracy” is I guess the biggest threat, followed by Islamic Nationalist views, then of course we have to include “socialist” democracy which to me is kind of an oxymoron, but is seen as a threat to “capitalist” democracy. All very confusing, but there is an undercurrent to all this that our current forms of democracy are changing from inside and outside influences. Technology has something to do with this also, because it amplifies

This was fascinating but also infuriating. I wish the reported would have pushed back a little harder on the last woman. Liberalism is the only way a pluralistic society can exist. She is saying she doesn't want certain views imposed on HER, but she is perfectly happy to impose her views on everyone else. Her argument is just that it's fine because MOST people have those views (and nevermind those who don't -- I guess they can just leave or adapt?)

These podcasts about the EU are an enjoyable way to kill an hour sitting in traffic. That's about all. Not many facts are provided. I learned of high unemployment in Italy. What about employment rates in Poland? Not mentioned. What has happened to the value of real wages in the EU over, say, the past ten years? Not a whisper. Why was the current, conservative party elected into office in Poland? Do most Poles support it today? It's not mentioned. Instead, we have a very personal and fascinating set of interviews with people who are unhappy with a range of issues in their countries. To get the full picture, listeners to this broadcast will need to look elsewhere. These broadcasts don't provide it.

Sounds like Russia hacked the daily. Four episodes on the far right in Europe and not a single word on Russia’s significant financial aid and their state-capturing textbook...

It was hard to listen to Katrinn be an unbiased journalist in this episode, in particular! I admire the strength, professionalism and poise she has in moments interviewing the far-right, for my head would surely explode. Her questions in the final interview of this episode really struck at the heart of the sentiment that has taken hold in Europe, and clearly left the official exasperated, as if she, herself, had never asked herself difficult questions: a theme I see, personally, in members of the far right. A Christian priest and angry mob, “exercising” and chanting anti-liberal, harmful rhetoric. It’s almost poetic. “Democracy should give the people what they want.” Indeed. But that’s not the full story, I think. The far right is using the idea of democracy as an excuse to get what they want, and as was pointed out in Hungary, the illusion of democracy is not a democracy. They are using the illusion of democracy to enable themselves and their negative feelings, like an angry mob, completely unconscientious, fervent, and without accountability. Their frustrations and speech are understandable, their actions are not. Hopefully the tide will not turn sour with the coming elections, or much progress in Europe will be lost and many more will be in danger. #neveragain

The politician with the Polish Law & Justice party explained that they just have a different view of democracy. One not centered on liberal values and an 'anything goes' mentality in which it's 'okay' to be gay or, I suppose (I'm extrapolating), having an abortion. Her criteria for what is allowed suspiciously mirrors conservative christian thought which I guess is no surprise since Poland is 95% Catholic. What happens when the four main branches of Catholicism in Poland start to disagree?

If we wish to get a good idea of what nationalism means in Poland, we ought to listen to Radio Maryja. Why did not the journalist ask what her nationalist host thought about foreigners living in Poland, Jews and Tatars? The EU can be understood as a club that can set the rules of membership. The EU can stipulate that members adhere to basic democratic principles to safeguard trading relations among its members. Dictatorships can not be considered reliable trading partners keeping the peace. Using early retirements as a pretext to replace judges, President Duda and his Law and Justice Party have recently attempted to stack the judiciary with people they control to an extent so crass that even the Trump administration complained. The European Court of Justice decided that Duda's takeover of the justice system was unlawful and the European Commission threatened to penalize his government. Under pressure, Duda partially reversed his personnel decisions. Like in the program yesterday, EU membership seems treasured even among nationalists, though in the eyes of the Law and Justice Party the EU meddling in Polish affairs appears neither liberal nor democratic. But is not protecting democratic principles like the separation of powers a good thing? Would not it have been history-changing to have had an EU in 1933?

A whacked out priest holding an exorcism of a newspaper. The Law and Justice party is similar to the Republican party today appealing to the same type of voters. If they are so sure of their beliefs, why are they afraid of the press? The answer is clear.

Hearing this interview about the killing of Gdansk mayor Pawel Adamowicz broke my heart and just had to pause the episode to cool down. Although the perpetrator was and is mentally ill and was treated by a number of prison psychiatrists he, nevertheless, was under a direct influence of anti-liberal national media taken over by Law and Justice party. Seeing Polish church embracing the ruling party in order to keep its vast lands, properties, tax exemptions and official pro-church rhetoric make me want to run away yelling, but then again where should I run to? Antisemitic Germany? Russian fueled Italy? Brexit’s UK? Internally unstable France on the verge of revolution? Trump’s USA? THE Trump who is in love with Polish government, who officially condemns liberal part of the nation he’s supposed to govern, officially supports Russia’s election meddling, brushes off any values, rules, agreements, mere human decency but money and power? There’s always Canada, I know. But running away doesn’t change anything. It makes the monster breed on your fear. Still 92 percent of Poles wants to remain in EU. Let's start from there. Only together and indivisible we can be able change it.

I wondered why Trump increased troop levels to Poland earlier this week. Today's episode of The Daily explains, without mentioning it, the basis Trump's affinity for Poland. The movement to the right reflects his values.

When I listen to this series on the EU and its move towards nationalism I keep thinking about the lie of WMD's in Iraq how the ripple of that war started this whole mess. We should be looking at how the U.S. policies have destabilized the region and continues to do so today.

Powerful, powerful episode. Thank you Katrin and The Daily team for this fascinating series, very interesting to this American.

The idea that a liberal democracy is not a real democracy because it imposes the rights of the minority on the majority is crazy. I can’t imagine taking the majorities ideas and calling them rights. You can’t have rights if they take away rights of others in the society. Democracy is for all to have rights.

Did I hear correctly that the Polish PIS party was said to be “the first Conservative party to come to power [in Poland] since communism” in this episode? How on earth is it fathomable for The Daily to equate the far right conservatism of the PIS to communism, which by all accounts has always been associated with leftism? I’m asking this as someone who identifies as a socialist and historical materialist. If this multi episode inquiry into “understanding the far right” movements in Europe better is really about that, and not in fact about pedaling horseshoe theory or the idea that neoliberal centerism is the path ahead simply because it is in the center and not because it’s moral or makes the most sense, well, maybe try harder?

In US is something which sometimes seems contorted, if not sometimes, also contradictory. Into its statutory framework is an effort to protect the minority. I cannot right now recite by what mechanisms the work of these protections is attempted. When the spokeswoman for Poland's government defines democracy in terms of, majority vote count, only, from a US perspective, I note what appears to be an aching void, which I think is this running notion of protection of the minority. Tyranny of the majority is a real possibility, it appears, in what is now the Polish model. What if the majority vote, and/or, public opinion, gets it wrong? It appears easy to say that a majority vote count, only, defines what democracy means. Protection for the minority seems of such vital importance as this story is being told, and I think begins to educate us that democracy is more than who wins a vote, end of story.

Please make this stop! The European trip was certainly a chance for interesting reporting, and instead is an appallingly boring series of episodes that due to lack of quality and depth have no business being on this podcast. Please make it stop.

The Daily has been my lunchtime companion since its inception. I love the way Michael and the reporters furnish such insight and background to the articles I’ve already read. This week’s reports from Europe are especially fantastic, adding such layers and nuance to your articles about the rise of nationalism. This expanded coverage enhances The Daily, an already valuable addition to the Times reporting. I’ve been a Times reader since my childhood in the 1940s when my Dad brought the paper home and I couldn’t wait to get my hands on it.

On what basis do you call this party nationalist? Have you interviewed representatives of more sides than one? The party has flaws, but calling it nationalist is giving incorrect, subjective picture