I really like Mr. Ashlock’s artwork. Yes, lyft and uber are exploitative. I drove for lyft for a month a few years ago. I realized quickly that after factoring in wear and tear on my vehicle, mileage and gas, plus time spent driving around to get customers, it really wasn’t worth it financially. Thats capitalism. Uber is losing massive $$$ a year because the low cost rides are being subsidized by investor cash. Uber and lyft models are unworkable in rural and spred out areas, they only work in high density urban areas.
2
UBER SHOULD RECOGNIZE LONG-TERM DRIVERS IN THEIR REWARDS AFTER GOING PUBLIC. They'll be quite rich; I don't know how the big payouts could be less equitable.
As someone who earns about $21,000 a year, I started reading this article with the thought, “wow, $40,000 a year.” As I continued to read, I felt more and more dispirited.
No matter how hard we work, many of us are destined to stay in place or fall behind. I will work as long as I can walk but can’t imagine what I’ll do after that.
1
In 2018 Lyft lost 911M$ on 2.2B$ in revenue. It’s stock has tanked since the IPO and I’d bet most of their drivers are just as unhappy with their jobs as Mr. Ashlock is with his Uber job.
The founders and private capital investors made plenty of money on the IPO. Uber’s circumstances are probably very similar. What’s wrong with this picture? Doesn’t seem like a long term opportunity.
Hope my mutual funds don’t have (or take) big positions in either of these companies.
1
Is it illegal for companies to offer stock incentives to part-time or contract workers? In Uber’s case, they would have no business, no income without the drivers.
If it is legal to offer stock incentives to contract workers, one could justifiably conclude that Uber, Lyft, who, as this article says, ride on the backs of thousands of low paid workers, are today’s equivalent of the sweatshop mill owners in 19th century England. Legality is being used to diguise, sanctify and deodorize a very base manifestation of avarice.
I drive for Uber and am grateful for the income it provides. Like the driver who is the subject of this article, I am willing to be used in exchange for the benefit I gain. That does not change the base nature of this public offering.
What has happened to contemporary business practice that knowledgeable investors are willing to invest 100 billion dollars in an enterprise that frankly expects to never make a profit?
NYC sold out their nyc licensed taxi drivers by not taking a stand against ride hailing companies. Taxi drivers lost their investments with a few years as the price of nyc taxi medallions plunged from one million $ to $100k. NYC can still right this wrong by imposing rules and fees on ride hailing by forcing each car operating in nyc to own a medallion. We do not need 60k to 100k more cars on the streets of manhattan. We need amazing transportation.
6
Uber looses a lot of money every year, he makes a decent living driving for them. Now of course some will become very wealthy by taking the company public, that is a flaw in our system. It might be worthless eventually especially if say Apple creates some self driving taxis. Or Ford.
1
Uber's real revolution is its platform. Right now, they are managing hundreds of thousands of drivers around the world via algorithm and smartphone. Maybe today, it seems to be the poverty stricken who are getting a raw deal from uberization but, tomorrow, the bell will toll for the managerial class.
5
@Jeff You are so correct! Everyone is trying to figure out how to "gigify" the workforce and get away from having to deal with benefits, training, minimum wage, the list goes on...
4
this is slavery. plain and simple.
1
Being an Uber or lyft driver not meant for me to be a job to make living. It is part time but still annoying to see uber snap almost 50% of my earning in addition to car operating cost. It never ever to reach $12/hr, not at all. Uber is never in driver side with any support, a rider whose day was screwed up give 1star rating in spite the fact he or she get excellent service and ride in a perfect car. Contacting Uber to get explanation why rider give 1 star, no way to get help or support. Now no way to Keep working with unsupported abused system.
15
I've never used Uber or Lyft. I walk and have my own car (in NYC). I've sen Uber in TV shows. If I drove Uber, I'd stock my car with necessities for drunks and people rushing too much to eat or drink, and I'd charge for those things. I'd have Advil, condoms, water, Red Bull, protein bars, vaping material, and wine or champagne for people going to party who don't want to stop at a liquor store. I might even keep generic birthday gifts in my trunk (for people going to a b-day party). My car would be a rolling corner market. Someone getting picked up at JFK or LGA might want some food, water, coffee, Red Bull, ibuprofen, cigarettes, etc..
11
"Mr. Ashlock ... sought to make a living as an artist."
"His 2018 tax return will show an adjusted gross income in the neighborhood of $40,000, ..."
The article should have said how much of Ashlock's income is from his art.
17
I'll play devil's advocate. Mr Ashlock needs extra money, so he VOLUNTARILY drives for a ride sharing company who is known for its lack of benefits and security. He gets to work when he wants or when he needs to work and yet the premise of the article is to make UBER the bad player in all this. To be fair UBER is the bad player. We all know this. But drivers like Mr Ashlock chose to work for UBER. And they can choose to leave too.
Is UBER stingy and mean? Yes. Should it be more generous? Never hurts to be generous. Does UBER actually owe anything to drivers like Mr Ashlock? Not a darn thing.
And for the record, human drivers will be phased out of ride sharing companies altogether. A.I. will make these jobs obsolete. What drivers don't realize is that every ride helps UBER and LYFT improve their algorithms.
16
People are not understanding that there is a portion of the population that does not have many job choices. It's make money now (because I have to) and forget the expenses that will come later -- depreciation and maintenance on the vehicle.
Uber and Lyft are so cheap because they lose money on every trip -- the driver is at the mercy of Uber/Lyft's price model.
Ubers/Lyft investors are paying for the insurance and app lose. With a cab company those costs are real and must be paid ...think about it ......how can a cab be any different vs Uber or Lyft.
The efficiency is tiny -- and Uber/Lyft shifts the car cost tot he driver .... and they still lose money.
Sorry -- it's exploitation .... pure and simple. Remember the next time you take one ..... they driver is making very little money and may have few other choices.
17
Uber is capitalism at its worst. The investors make millions and the drivers commit suicide like taxi drivers because they can’t make a living.
There was a article today in the NYT about pilots who fly for Amazon they are being financially abused by management at Amazon.
Yes some people have choices but many do not which is why inions created the middle class . Corporations appear to care only for shareholders not American citizens. With the murder of the unions the country is slipping financially into a depression and the despair leads to suicide.
So believe the lie that having health care for everyone will destroy the country . Uber hasn’t turned a profit and won’t turn one anytime soon except for the investors.
Wall Street works only for the white elites while the rest of us are treated as slaves earning pennies.
20
Mark Twain taught me at a young age to be wary of paying to paint someone else’s fence.
14
Simply put Uber IS the devil.
6
While the economics of so-called “ride sharing” — who ever came up with this name? How is it in any way accurate? — are exploitive, the underlying technology of maximizing transportation efficiency is significant. I live in a small city (population 120,000) that nominally has a bus system. It is neither comprehensive nor efficient. You cannot run enough fixed lines to move people where they want to go in a timely way. No wonder buses have 3or 4 riders at a time and the system loses money. On the other hand, it is inefficient and costly to ferry everyone around in a single-rider taxi (or Über). Some cities (I wish mine were one of them) have devised hybrid multiple-rider mini-buses that have no fixed route but are hailed and routed on the underlying technology that Über and Lyft devised to make routes efficient and timely. When done right, these can encourage people to leave their cars in the garage, a 21st-century form of car-pooling.
Such a system doesn’t have to mimic Über’s exploitive business model. Vehicles are public property and maintained by the company, and drivers are employees. The difference here is that the goal is to move people efficiently, not make tons of money for a select group of predators.
11
I believe Uber and Lyft and the like are greatly increasing Manhattan's traffic. Perhaps "congestion pricing " would not have emerged as a solution, but for this new business model. (I've taken 4 such rides- in Florida and California. I basically feel unsafe and unsure if I am entering a vehicle with a criminal or underinsured driver.......For the record, I am not a fan of taxis, either.)
10
Local and or state governments should mandate that Uber pay all drivers for the wear and tear of their vehicles. There could be credits issued at 5000 mile intervals. Scott Weiner, do you hear this? I would gladly pay more as an Uber customer to help compensate for this. It seems fair.
9
Uber's business model is unsustainable, and they know it. Their IPO prospectus said they don't know if they will EVER be profitable.
The real business model for ridesharing is simply to have the biggest footprint when self-driving cars become viable. It looks like that will be a few years later than was expected, but it's coming. However a few extra years of that is a few extra years that Uber (and Lyft) will sop up cash at a monumental pace.
As between Uber and Lyft, though, Lyft is a much better corporate citizen. Around the time that Travis was fired, I had occasion to talk to an attorney for Uber and I said very bluntly "I'm not sure if Uber is the most corrupt organization since Enron, or if we have to go all the way back to the Nixon administration."
11
If government really cared about the working class which they don’t the ownership of self driving cars would be limited to private ownership and prohibited for commercial use. Of course what corporation would donate to politicians if they actually took a stand for working folks. And elected hacks who pass themselves off as leaders would actually have to work for a living
2
Uber is exploiting those who are vulnerable and desperate. The true cost to operate a vehicle, which includes the purchase, depreciation, insurance, fuel, maintenance reduces the potential earnings to meager levels. Uber's direct oversight of the work is like an iron hand controlling the work, yet not taking on the responsibilities of an employer. Until the drivers form a union, they will be at the mercy of this menace.
12
ALL "Contingent" work is like this; $12 for uniform Laundry (Daily) for $9 an hour (Banquet service); Fast food where workers only have one uniform, so go to the laundromat every day (or else....). Add the non-trivial expense of keeping a reliable vehicle on the road just to get to the job.
Eventually your vehicle is beyond economical repair, and you either buy a new one or pay the rent. At least you will have a car to live in for a while.
These workers are to busy (stressed?) to vote; We need a democratic majority in the Senate to begin to address these issues.
10
It is shameful how Uber does not do more to encourage riders to tip their drivers. They could so easily do it, and it would help the drivers immensely, but because it just might give the impression of making the fare seem greater, they turn away. And since Uber started where I am, they have changed drivers' pay once, lowering it by 5%.
4
It doesn't appear that Uber and Lyft add any more value than Craigslist or perhaps Ebay. Craigslist is free for most sellers and Ebay's fee runs a percent or two. We need someone to come up with the Craigslist model enabling the drivers to make a living wage.
4
@osavus A disruptor needs to disrupt these disruptors at their own game....
1
So it turns out that there are some bonuses going out prior to the IPO. I logged into my Uber driver app and saw that I was getting a measly chunk of change for my 7 years of service. I called to find out what the deal was and how they are judging who gets what. Turns out there are four tiers based off of the number of trips that you've driven for Uber. You are allowed up to $10,000 bonus if you've had over 20,000 trips with them since you began. Congratulations Mr Ashock you should be able to repair your car now.
For drivers that are in larger metropolises 20000 trips in a significant period of time is possible. For those of us who have put in just as many hours in a small Metropolis and only have 7000 plus trips we only get a bonus of $500.
Uber has managed to lower their fares to such an extent that drivers can barely eke out a minimum wage type salary. Over the years they've become so desperate for new drivers, they've lowered their qualifications on both drivers and the cars they are allowed to drive. The original concept of Uber, back in 2007, was to circumvent the shoddy practices of cabbies whose cars were falling apart. But with Uber`s new business practice of lowering quality on a regular basis, charging the same but paying their drivers fewer and fewer dollars, and now having to show profit to shareholders to stay competitive with the other guy, eventually Uber will be worse than the cabs originally were.
I know for sure they have lost this long time driver.
15
Exploitation of working people is considered “acceptable” in predatory capitalism.
Most people understand that “minimum wage” has been stagnant, and if it had kept pace with other indexes, it would be far higher.
Mitch McConnell has regularly voted his own raises while rejecting any increases in the minimum wage.
It’s nice to be able to vote your own raise. We should all be able to do that.
Or maybe Mitch McConnell shouldn’t be able to.
Exploitation of working people to coddle the rich should be illegal.
15
Quite, If its not going to benefit you quit. We all know that the true theif is Wallstreet Banks, Hedge fund Companies. In a nutshell they hire Lobbyists who are former regulators for specific industry while there collecting their FAT GOVERNMENT TAX PAYER PENTION their going to work and earn exorbitantly more money for the very industry they were hired to monitor.
So they cajole Lawmakers to modify the law so the Hedge fund Companies and behemoth sized Banks earn more money. Most American Companies are GREEDY AND LAW MAKERS ARE EASILY BRIBE. WE Live in extraordinary economic uncertainty with income inequality. In a nutshell the working poor people are taken advantage of and more immigration does not help our labor force it reduces the earnings cause now we have all these extra people willing to work for a $1.00 an hour.
2
Do any of you know what ”uber” means? Over or above as in contemptuous. If you sign up, you agree to be below the founders. Why would you complain? It’s voluntary slavery just like most internet companies.
1
What is this about?
Do we now have to subsidize this dude too ?
If he wanted to be a venture capitalist he should have gone a different career path.
Do we owe everybody everything that we have busted our rear ends to make happen?
Fix the education system to level the playing field but let's recognize we are not guarantors of the wealth of every US resident. I resent being made to feel guilty by the press if I want to enjoy the fruits of my very extensive labors. I worked 80 hour weeks frequently and have never expected any one to hand me anything.
Teach kids early that there are consequences to actions. If you drop out of school, you will pay a high price. There is nothing less dignified than a human who allows himself to be painted as a victim just because his employer who is losing 1.8 BILLION a year did not give him free IPO shares.
12
Unhappy. Nothing you say is untrue as long as the playing field is level. Unfortunately it is not. I am walking down my street in Manhattan. Very shortly the average person will pay just to drive on the street. Ironically a big Hollywood studio will shut down the neighborhood causing congestion with no benefit to the residents and we will all be forced to pay congestion pricing. God forbid you don’t comply your car will be towed. Level playing field in the USA. I think not. A govt bought and paid for by the one percent. No wonder the number of expats is on the rise
3
I took this to its logical conclusion years ago, and I'm vilified for it to this day.
I never volunteer for any organization that has a paid employee making more than $1,000 a week . Giving away your labor is the surest way to devalue it. The five-percenters inculcate the masses with tales of how honorable it is to volunteer, all so they can keep the revenue the organization generates for themselves. There's a certain one that is on the phone to me constantly, wanting both my labor and my blood for free--literally--while they have more than a dozen people listed on their 990 annually making more than $350,000 each.
I was in a gig--amateur sports officiating--for years where I set my own prices. The consumers of my services centralized the buying with a broker in the middle, and the broker set the same fixed price for everyone in order to get work. Sound familiar?
I quit, and now they are constantly whining about the shortage of people willing to work. When you're a contractor and someone else controls the amount of work you get and the price you get paid for it, it's a sure thing the worker is getting hosed.
7
I'm glad Uber is around. We used to have to put up with the local taxis. They are so appalling that I was driven to write this about them:
~
Green ecotaxis gather at night
under gray concrete bridges
metal woodlice mounting each other
flash mirrors bump fenders rub wheels
stick exhaust pipes into each other
Radiators boil over, steam rises
oil drips amber from sump pans
transmission fluid leaks past seals
green water trickles from radiators
cooling systems fail in the heat
Ochre flakes fall from dented bodies
headlights wink in the darkness
turn signals blink red yellow red
springs relax tiredly under seats
taximeters explode in blue sparks
The door opens on tired hinges
you gingerly scramble inside
body odour rises from seat covers
the clima is on the fritz and it costs
seventy pesos more than you expected.
2
I think to car Maintenance costs sound too high for a Japanese or American car. Also, you never have to buy a new car. You can buy a used one.
I bought a pre-owned Porsche with 7400 miles. Now, it has 18,000 miles on it. My running costs are about what Mr. Ashlock claims for his car, but my car is a Porsche, and I drive it like lunatic.
Around 1998, I bought a new Corolla. I drove it for about 20,000 miles. I don't recall every having to spend a penny on it, in terms of maintenance (I sold it to my brother after 20,000 miles).
Mr. Ashlock's taxes sound high and so do his car costs.
2
I believe that the Uber/Lyft phenom will be short lived. Their obvious inability to turn a profit after years of laying pipe is ample evidence of failure,
Spending billions testing the waters around the globe it is obvious that the model is flawed, the concept saturated and the cost of entry for competitors is a negligible fraction.
As the global competition expands, usurping revenue to move into trucking, air travel etc
will only spawn more deep pocketed foes. At some point the early investors will smell the blood and cash out leaving deep losses to the vast number of investors that will be late to realize the failure.
Were I a man of means I would put all my chips on shorting these ill fated IPOs
5
Greed. Seems there is plenty of money in this business for everyone's contribution to be compensated fairly. Just another argument in the camp where the company's not interested in trickle down with the primary objective being shareholder and executive wealth and no concern for the well being of the worker, the worker's family or the community. Only of course if the company is being steered by a leader of integrity or is forced to in someway.
3
It appears that many of the people commenting here are ignoring the major difference with Uber and other large employers of generally lower skilled workers. With Uber, the driver is using his or her own car and is paying all the expenses involved with car ownership. In the recent past, drivers used the employer’s car. The fleet owner paid for the car, the insurance and the maintenance. With Uber, the driver bears these costs. That’s why working for Uber is different than working in fast food or Walmart. Anyone using Uber is gambling that the driver has kept up his insurance and that the car is in safe to operate.
10
@Maureen
"Anyone using Uber is gambling that the driver has kept up his insurance and that the car is in safe to operate"
Which is exactly the same gamble made when you take a taxi. And if you think that "regulation" ensures that all taxis are safe, and insured, you are woefully naive.
3
@GMooG
"Anyone using Uber is gambling that the driver has kept up his insurance and that the car is in safe to operate"
No, it is NOT the same gamble. I don't know about LA but in NY, the Taxi & Limousine Commission (TLC) enures the drivers are trained, registered and inusred. The driver's name and picture is posted in the back of the cab and every cab has a number on the hood. You can call 311 with comments/complaints. You can also look up the drivers on the TLC website.
When did Uber start doing that?
9
My son-in-law, who has a full-time job, lives in a rural college town. He drives for both rideshare companies on weekends and says he is treated much better by Lyft than by Uber, a sentiment I hear from drivers of both companies when I use them.
As a rider, my preference is Lyft.
7
Clearly Uber and Lyft survive by cheating their drivers. The founders will soon cash in for about $10 Billion. Think about that! And they know this model is not sustainable, so they will cash out soon. Note to Congress: The drivers are NOT Independent Contractors! Read the applicable laws.
On a side note, $11 in tips? I have read this over and over, no one tips. Come on people be realistic, this is a service. Tip for good service.
12
I drove Uber and Lyft for a year and a half, ending in late 2017. As much as anything, I wanted to experiment see how much I could clear.
I maintained an Excel log of every drive, including distance to pickup and unavoidable non-passenger miles in my 20 MPG car. Even with tax deductions for gas, repairs and mileage, I determine my net was around minimum wage. Even worse when figured as earnings per mile netted for cost.
Both Uber and Lift lose money. A lot of money. So to pay drivers a higher portion of the fare or pay benefits is a non-starter. To increase fares would drive away customers. So margins are stuck until they can switch to autonomous cars. But even if eliminating drivers more than offsets the cost of autonomous vehicle ownership, that won’t happen at scale for another 5-10 years.
Until then, they will rely on the ignorance of existing and new drivers who fail to understand the math. Most drivers eventually figure it out, so constant recruiting is essential for the survival of these companies.
Will construction of the high turnover human driver “ant bridge” make it to the autonomous car side? Is the other side fixed or moving further away? And are autonomous vehicles even the promised land Uber and Lyft expect?
Or is the ride share business going to be looked back upon as a temporary phenomenon of these times? A bubble relegated at best to low density suburbia where mass transit is inefficient.
9
One point that shocked me was the reference to a meager $11 in tips for the driving shift that was described. Wow -- twenty-plus rides, with a gross cost to the riders of $250+, and these collective cheapskates tipped a measly total of $11! Come on people -- if you want the convenience of riding in an Uber or Lyft, at least tip your drivers so that they can do a little better than what these companies are allowing.
15
When uber launched they had a strict no tipping policy -- it was simply supposed to be better for everybody.
And you know what? Drivers still signed up (in droves) to work for that company.
I tip 20% on every meal I got out to eat but I will not concede to tipping on the uber service out of principal.
If a waitress or dishwasher doesn't show up to work one day they could be fired.
If an uber driver never logs into the app again? Nothing happens.
It's a different set of circumstances and uber drivers know full well what they signed up. Part of me also believes that if tipping goes mainstream for uber that will be used against them the same way tips are used against food services workers.
So sure, you can namecall all you want but I belive there is more to consider here than just a binary of tip / no-tip.
3
@Bob
Contrary to what corporations want people to believe, tips are NOT compulsory. I pay for my service. If that price isn't enough to cover what it takes to provide that service plus a profit, then the business owner is doing something wrong. I, the consumer, should not have to make up a difference in salary because the employer can't or won't pay a proper wage.
And for the people who say "then you will have to pay a higher price blah blah ..." Guess what?! Prices go up all the time but salaries don't. Place the blame where it belongs - not on people but on the employers who aren't providing a decent wage, benefits or even a job.
2
It gets worse.
Uber kills the Taxis, then lowers its pay to its drivers.
Now pushes self driving cars to squeeze out their own drivers.
I just cant believe that we aren't better at regulating these ride sharing companies.
Is the fact that Ms. Pelosi is the senator for SF a factor?
3
There are significant trade-offs here. If Uber drivers were employees - which I think they are - Uber could not both pay its employees and make money. (Heck, Uber can't even make money right now paying drivers as independent contractors.) Of course, Uber could raise its prices to try to properly pay its employees but that would result in a significantly reduced revenue stream for Uber and its drivers as customers abandoned the service due to price.
So which is better: (i) The current state of affairs, with an extremely large Uber work force that works for low wages but gives the customer relatively good value for its money; or (ii) a much, much smaller and higher end Uber service for those that can afford it but with many, many fewer drivers who earn a decent income. You can't have well paid drivers, cheap prices and an economically viable company. Which do you choose?
5
Uber is like a lot of businesses that have sprung in an Internet-enabled world. The underlying business is not actually profitable, but the owners clean up on stock gains and / or from monetizing customer data. That the stock prices are propped up by unrealistic expectations matters little to the “entrepreneurs” and venture capitalists who will be long gone when the music stops playing.
9
Another word for freedom is nothing left to lose.
9
A gig economy run by parasitic rent seeking apps.
Organize, refuse to drive at peak times, take collective action, and build leverage.
8
When the owners of UBER talk about a sharing economy they mean the drivers do the work and the owners get the profit. Not a very fair share, if you ask me. Have you seen the misleading adds for UBER where everyone is going up? They should be prosecuted for wire fraud!
7
After the gross invasions of privacy (women being tracked by Uber's app, just for fun), the lack of vetting of drivers' criminal records and the rapes and kidnappings that have occurred around the world by Uber drivers I'm amazed anyone still uses it. As someone who drives a great deal I am disheartened to see these anonymous drivers tapping away on texts and creating danger on the roads, veering out of lanes, straddling lanes, not signaling, etc.. Worst of all, there's no identifying info on the car. When you see dangerous driving you have to memorize an 8 digit "T" plate, where you are, and then contact....some entity that may or may not have jurisdiction over the driver. Don't drive for these companies, they're evil in many ways.
4
If you lived in the DMV, then you were hostage to RedTop Cab, Diamond Cab et al. It was a nightmare to fly into Dulles late at night and attempt to get a taxi to drop you off in the suburbs. Many drivers tried to illegally harass you into paying for their dead head trip back to wherever. Uber and Lyft freed us from waiting on hold or dealing with dispatchers or rides that never showed. People should not work at Uber or Lyft if it doesn’t support their needs. Punching in at a McJob will not allow the desired flexibility or independence.
1
Why aren't Uber drivers in NY employees ?
Can't Cuomo and the supposedly Dem legislature fix this in about an hour ?
where the heck are they ?
The problem isn't the idea of ride sharing
The problem is that our gov't uses the law and police to favor the rich
If gov't had even a modicum of honest, most of the issues discussed here would go away
4
@ezra abrams - Uber is all over the place, not just New York. They and their problems are in the Bay State, too.
Let’s stiff the workers with 100% of the overhead expenses of Uber Corp and 0% of the ownership of the company.
The idea of Uber is diabolical.
7
I hate to break it to you guys, but the business model is called capitalism. If you wonder why half the country is "barely getting by", it's because,the problem is way bigger then Uber.
10
To borrow John Lennon's word: Imagine. A day or two where we keep our plastic inside our wallets. We abstain for one day and watch Amazon, Lyft, Uber, Lime...watch them panic.
5
Uber uses your time and auto for their huge payday...no thank you.
2
I hate doing Uber too, but sometimes when you're drowning you don't care who's throwing you the rope.
5
"“Ever see W. C. Fields in ‘The Bank Dick’?” he asked. “He catches a robber and retrieves the stolen $25,000, so the president of the bank gives him a hearty hand clasp"
Yes! it's a great scene and one of the funniest films ever made. that 'hearty hand clasp' was the limpest hand shake ever recorded and then it dissolved into a dead trout. That's exactly what companies do to people. Not only do Uber drivers get a smaller percentage of the take, but they also have to pay for gas and maintenance! Add to that the stress on the nervous system driving a car. There's more to life than a billion dollars-like taking care of each other equitably.
3
Don’t care anymore. Decided 11/16 I was no longer inconveniencing myself or paying more for anyone else’s benefit including boycotts. As long as too many want to screw themselves and others with them by voting against even their own interests, I ain’t screwing myself to help them. Best service at best price for me is what gets my $.
2
Given the share of drivers’ fares it takes, if Uber isn’t making a profit under current conditions, when will it? Companies providing personal car insurance to drivers are in effect subsidizing Uber (ridesharing policies or Uber’s own insurance won’t cover all liability exposures related to Uber work), and that situation can’t continue indefinitely. Regarding vehicle costs, the Uber model seems to be built on the assumption that drivers are using cars they’re already paying for, so the company can presume drivers will tolerate wear and tear on their cars and attendant costs. That may be true for short-term temporary drivers, but those who accumulate a lot of mileage will discover dwindling returns due to rising car maintenance and replacement costs and may find Uber is a bad deal. More important, Uber’s core services of connecting riders to drivers and processing payments may become commodified, with local competitors with lower cost structures siphoning off business.
1
There are many stable jobs that pay well that need to be filled. But workers need to show up on time, to not have a criminal record, and to not use drugs. I have seen jobs advertised locally paying $17 to $23 an hour, with benefits like healthcare and vacations and with no experience necessary. Who are those people who want to get out of bed whenever, do drugs, and only work when they need money?
2
Uber can be a second job (and often is,) or a job to schedule around childcare or other family obligations. Why would you assume drivers are on drugs? Or such lazy degenerates that they deserve your judgement?
2
He spent $47 on gas, and his car also got wear and tear.
When I drove a couple years ago, my car repairs went up exponentially, not to mention insurance is very expensive for rideshare. Also, my boyfriend drove and his car was hit by another driver. His $1000 repair was not covered by Uber. That, and the fact that Uber takes way too much per ride.
We all want to ride Uber, but the company needs to support the drivers. They shouldn’t be scraping by after working 50 hours a week. Uber is not hurting for cash whatsoever.
8
I suppose Mr. Ashlock could tend bar or clean houses to support his art career or perhaps get into mainstream art that dealers sell and artists make a good income from, but those who choose a bohemian lifestyle rarely have the luxury of not scraping along for money.
Over time I expect the drivers will improve their lot through unions or new laws. I use Uber frequently and encounter lots of interesting drivers who supplement their income this way. I tip in cash in the car.
Very few jobs offer this kind of flexibility and low entry requirements.
I sold Fuller Brush door to door through late high school and college. Hard work, wonderful company. In the 1960s I was making $20 an hour when the minimum wage was $2 an hour. I moved on to a profession but I remain thankful that Fuller gave me the opportunity to make money.
8
Did this man make a PROFIT of $40,000 — money left after expenses? Or was his REVENUE $40,000 before deducting the cost of operating his car? There is a big difference between the two. My guess is that most Uber drivers net very little once all of the costs (including wear and tear) are deducted.
I took a 14 mile Uber ride today which cost me about $9. I don’t know what percentage of that $9 my driver got, but I know that she likely incurred costs of $8.12 using the IRS’s standard reimbursement rate of $0.58 per mile. Even if that is tax deductible, it likely does not cover her actual costs in the long-run.
13
Is anyone placing a gun to their heads and forcing them to drive for Uber or Lyft? If so, they need to report it to law enforcement. If not, they need to get back to work or find another job.
3
Uber and Lyft are taxi services. They should be taxed and regulated exactly like taxi services. Stop calling it ride sharing. If I have to pay someone, they're not sharing a ride. Google the term "hitchhiking," a practice of real ride sharing from the 1970's. It involved a thumb, not an app.
23
The amount of money that Uber takes from their drivers, who bear the full cost of their car maintenance, insurance, repairs and gas seems very unfair. I’m not sure why drivers would continue to drive with the low rate of final pay. And I agree that the company should at least give them some sort of profit sharing.
A way to help these hard working drivers, with “4.93 ratings” would be to tip more kindly. $11 tip on a $200 shift (After the Uber cut). is less than 5%. That could be implemented on the next Uber trip that is taken and would make a big difference to these drivers.
1
@Red0736
"And I agree that the company should at least give them some sort of profit sharing."
If you read the article, you know that Uber loses about $2 billion/year. So the profit is negative. Do you think the Uber drivers should be willing to fund their share of the loss? Or is the profit sharing just a one way street in your view?
2
I know a guy who is a retired cop (with a pension, obviously) who drives for Uber. He does early morning shifts taking people to the airport. He knocks off during the morning rush hour and is done for the day long before the evening rush starts.
I'm not sure how much he makes, but I think it amounts to walking around money.
The real scandal was how taxi medallions were rigged, uh, regulated to the point that they cost a million dollars.
And while I know nothing about how Uber treats drivers I do like the fact that it's a cashless transaction...no getting robbed at gunpoint over a fistful of fives and tens.
7
Let’s not forget the transportation nightmare cities like New York are currently facing in the wake of Uber. More congestion & slower speeds on the street as a result of Uber. At the same time, Uber has poached many politically powerful people with discretionary incomes away from the MTA, leading to less revenue & fewer watchdogs for public transportation. So not only does Uber help create traffic congestion, but it also contributes to diminished transit service.
7
My question is what would these people be doing if Uber and Lyft were not around?
I see everyone demonizing Uber, Lyft, and other gig economy companies, but many of these people would be unemployed and broke if these companies did not exist.
I have spoken to many Uber drivers about their experiences. I have met a few that have made $80,000 after Uber fees and taxes. I met one that broke down in tears because he couldn't make ends meet because his costs were so high.
Most of the drivers that I met fell somewhere in the middle.
The ones who did extremely well had a strategy and treated Uber like a business. They mapped out hot spots in the city, they have calendars for upcoming events - like Yankees games or Beyonce Concerts, they drive at certain times of the day when demand is high, etc. They also had a car that was fuel efficient and kept up with their maintenance.
The ones who did poorly had no strategy, did no research, had no goals, and/or drove vehicles like SUVs that were not helping their bottom line.
We all make choices. No one is forcing any of these people to do this. If you want to make great money driving then you have to do more, because driving is not a high skill job.
Gig economy jobs are not the greatest, but how many people are being kept off the unemployment rolls because of it?
Finally, how many 71-year-olds could find a job, any job, given the realities of Ageism?
Please stop acting like there are no beneficial impacts of the gig economy.
11
Technology has created Uber and Lyft that will not go away, Better regulation is needed. There are different kinds of drivers, some give a ride while going home that earns some money for the gas. Otherwise for him he can afford to go without that money. Such drivers make sense for Uber. Uber should self regulate and avoid creating a parallel taxi service without regulation. Technology products can not go wild.
Glad I read this. Drivers barely scrapping by while others reap billions. Time to rethink my rides.
11
Another great article by Mr. Streitfeld that posits the ordinary person inside the larger picture.
I think that today we are seeing the dawn of a new kind of worker exploitation similar to that in the 19th C, with factory workers and others being exploited by corporations that had only their own bottom line interests at heart, and who failed to protect and support their workers, keeping them in low-paying and often dangerous jobs. Most of those factories are gone now, at least from this country.
But Uber and the like aren't going anywhere for a while.
I deplore this new class of wealthy ignorant urbanites whose selfishness is creating a world of have-nots whose voices in protest, resentment, and anger at the ballot box have already had a huge effect on not just us but the rest of the world.
There is a price to be paid for all this. Sure wish those at the top would look up from their new iphones and see it. Sure wish those at the top could learn from history, for once.
6
A very simple way to deal with this for Uber and Lyft would be to give drivers prorated shares of the company when they go public based on how long drivers have been driving with them. For each mile driven--and they know EVERY mile--you get so many tenths of a pre-IPO share.
Then the driver becomes a stakeholder in the company. The drivers get rich TOO. It's the DRIVERS who made Uber and Lyft what they ARE today. But would Uber and Lyft DO THAT?
Of course not!
11
Is Uber supposed to be an enviable new fangled business model worth copying? It's the same old story of making money off cheap labor. Taxpayers will foot the bill for Uber when the workers need medical care. Uber is mining people the way oil and coal mined the land. Taxpayers and the workers being exploited get left holding the bag.
8
Than you, Mr. Ashlock, for sharing your story with us. May I offer you my best wishes for a very happy birthday next week, and wish Uber a very troubled IPO.
6
So what makes this different than all other companies whose investors and executives reap the benefits while the worker bees make minimum wage and can’t be full time so said companies don’t have to provide health care, PTO or any other benefits?
Sounds like business as usual in America to me.
5
Uber uses IT to move substantial costs out and down ... to drivers, with $s gushing up to a few from the many behind the wheels.
If Uber had to pay drivers a "living wage" plus sick and annual leave, health care insurance and a retirement plan (+ the other costs of having employees) and provide and maintain the cars, it would be less lucrative than cab companies.
THE challenge should be: How might IT (at the heart of Uber's current model) enable lower costs of operation for all involved and also lower fares for customers while doing all of the above, viz: paying drivers a "living wage" + sick and annual leave, etc.?
2
In the ‘70’s, I drove a cab in NYC, first for Ann Service on West 21st Street, then Dover Garage on Hudson Street, and finally a West 56th Street horsehire outfit.
From 1972 until 1980, I put myself through NYU (affordable then!) and lived alone in a different part of Manhattan moving every year or two from the East Village to Chelsea, down to SoHo, and finally the Hotel Earle on Washington Square. My rent averaged around $250/month, and I took home anywhere from $65 to $100 per night driving 8 to 12 hours.
I finally got my degree, walked by the Navy officer recruiting office on Ann Street near City Hall, and 10 days later, landed in Newport, RI for Officer Candidate School at the age of 28. I’ve never been back to the City.
5
@Tom Winters
NYC in the 70's wasn't exactly paradise.
I use Uber all over the country and in Europe. Most of the drivers like the work but not the company. Most are not angry with the company, just think the pay should be better.
The drivers all have a different story. Some have full time jobs and drive for extra cash. Some are retired and drive just to get out and about. Others drive full time. All of them say they like to drive and they like the people who ride with them.
Seems like the net pay should be a little higher, but given the relative satisfaction the drivers share with me, Uber doesn't deserve the ire other posters seem to have for it.
1
I was a cabdriver in San Francisco when Uber was starting up. They made their drivers buy black Lincolns getting 7mph and dressed them in footman's livery. They wanted to give their techie clients the millionaire experience.
Meanwhile, taxi companies were required to meet low emission standards. Our company, Green Cab, drove all Priuses. The number of cabs was fixed.
Their cars picked up passengers at the curb at the airport while we waited for hours in line.
All over the world, with their $70 billion, they've run roughshod over regulations, insurance, pay, protections. And their drivers make jack.
I still don't understand how supposed liberals work for these rapacious capitalists. David Plouffe worked for them, Arianna Huffington's on their board, and Stephen Colbert had their founder on his second show.
They've wrecked cab driving and added pollution and traffic. Now they're conning people into propping up their profit even though they lose money each year.
They're old-fashioned robber barons.
33
I take extreme offense to the statement “Silicon Valley has always been a lottery where immense wealth is secured by a few while everyone else must hope for better luck some other time.”
People who are successful in Silicon Valley are so because they are highly skilled workers with marketable talents! That is an outcome and reward for everyone’s hard work and decisions. There is no luck! Money didn’t fall from the sky and luckily land in a few peoples pockets. It wasn’t “luck” when people chose to pursue difficult and grueling majors, nor was it luck when they worked hard and struggled to be competitive.
I love the NYT, but they must stop trying to suggest that just because this is tech, and not law or medicine, that engineers are somehow less deserving of their status.
9
@Dan
You're right in general, but luck is certainly a much bigger factor than you think.
4
@Roy
Everybody who has limited skills, or intellect, or drive, thinks that those who are successful are lucky.
4
It sounds as though Mr. Ashlock might consider another form of employment. I'm not sure how consumers are supposed to weigh in on this or use their pocketbook to vote. Uber and Lyft exploited a hole in the market. If cabs did a better job, no one would be having this conversation.
8
When drivers choose not to work for Uber, then Uber will pay more. It's not a good job, it could be a way to make some money as a supplement, but considering the wear and tear on a car, it really isn't good even for that. But it has to be the driver's choice if they want to work to those terms.
Until people are forced to work for Uber, I don't see the huge scandal here. There are many jobs you can work that have the same issues, the solution is to not work for them - or better still, have the government regulate them.
There's a simple truth. Without government regulation, Uber paying better is corporate suicide.
If your business raises it's costs, it will have to raise it's prices. Then your competition does not do that, and no matter how much the public says the competition's labor practices are bad (if they even pay attention enough to notice), the public also shops based on the lowest price, your competitor gets your business, you go out of business.
4
@SusanStoHelit The fact that the pay is so abysmal has certainly made me rethink whether I want to support a company that pays so little to the people doing most of the work while others reap billions.
1
This just makes Uber, Lyft much more dangerous.
1
Uber's business "model" is to pay low wages. I'd be ashamed to operate in that manner. Fortunately for corporate America, they have no moral code.
5
The solution is to unionize. See article: https://theintercept.com/2018/03/26/uber-drivers-union-seattle/
Trump is trying to stop unionization of the Uber drivers because he hates his own voters, hates all ordinary people, and wants us to be slaves.
This is the IRONIC situation: The Chamber of Commerce and Uber (and the D.O.J.) are claiming that the drivers are ind contractors, thus businesses, thus if they organize THEY are violating anti-trust law.
4
Uber and Lyft need to learn from and actually implement plans based on “corporate ethics” and “corporate social responsibility” which came into play in the eighties and first part of the nineties.
Their IPO is based on turning toward driverless cars as soon as the next decade - this according to one large investor.
Worldwide, what would this mean for tens if not hundreds of millions of people worldwide? With the new era of Amazon, Facebook and AI technology, let us hope the leaders are intelligent and compassionate enough to plan and not just benefit financially from this next great disruption.
1
Uber shareholders and the execs raking in the dough are ripping off the drivers who are not sophisticated enough to realize that they are working for slave wages. They are the ones putting their time and treasure (car, insurance, overhead, etc) up for Uber to exploit and getting **$0** for it. They are the actual investors in this company and are being fleeced.
The "sharing" public is enabling this "tech based sweat shop".
Nice to see an article about this, but it really needs to be pointed out more emphatically why and how Uber and is taking money directly out of the drivers pockets and is totally exploiting them.
5
I work at starbucks, and I probably ring up about $100-200 an hour depending on the day, and I make $15 in that time. Doesn't seem like that crazy of a difference between an uber driver and my job. The fact is is that these two jobs are meant for poor people to stay poor. Want to change that? make it illegal to pay workers an unlivable wage.
20
@Kevin
But you pay $0 of Starbucks overhead, may get benefits and possible discounts on their food and drink.
1
5 star job of reporting and writing
5
i have never and will never use uber. their sexist founder, toxic work culture, and treatment of contractors (who do all the work and bear the expensive burdens of car ownership and maintenance) repulse me. Vote with your money, folks!
12
I used to drive for lyft and uber, but I stopped because it was just so unprofitable. And a lot of the times people would just pretend you're not even there, like you are a robot servant to them and that they are of such a higher socioeconomic class than you are. Uber used to actually be profitable, but that was when I was driving for them in Austin when it was 1.75 a mile. Then I tried driving for them in 2016 at .85 cents a mile in San Francisco, and it was a total loss in money - I was basically paying uber to drive people around. I love how they only lowered driver pay as inflation goes up every year.
What really got me in the article was when he had to come up with 5000$ in tax money, when Amazon and Chevron didn’t pay a dime in federal tax last year! Now when you hear this, you know something is wrong in our society.
18
I wonder if the driver is deducting all the business expenses he is entitled to on his tax return.
1
@Nino
"And a lot of the times people would just pretend you're not even there, like you are a robot servant to them and that they are of such a higher socioeconomic class than you are"
Well that makes sense, AI driverless cars are the endgame for Uber, after all. Maybe your customers are just preparing for future reality, lol.
Why is no one talking about unionizing these workers?
2
@Daniel Mozes They are not "workers" - they run their own individual businesses with their own cars and pay Uber for the sales leads . The laws that protect employees and allow them to attempt to unionise would not protect them and Uber would, undoubtedly, refuse them access to the Uber app if they did.
2
@Daniel Mozes
Because it isn't 1920 anymore, and people who have been paying attention to the world around them know that unions have been in decline for decades. They are a thing of the past, not the future. Unions only work when the members have a valuable skill or trade; Uber drivers have neither.
People are so barking at the wrong tree... Driving for Uber is a very low-skill occupation, and it pays accordingly. There is no real issue here. The only question worth asking is why some people who, presumably, do have some skills need to resort to driving for Uber.
6
@t
These people are working. No one should be looked down on and devalued because someone else doesn’t appreciate their worth.
Many work a lot harder than the so called “masters of the universe”, whose main skill is exploiting others.
15
@Grove
Nobody is looking down on anybody. What I'm saying is that the fundamental economic and societal problem is that people cannot find work in line with their skills, and have to settle for minimum wage work. THAT is what the root problem is. But you can't blame Uber for paying minimum wage jobs at minimum wage.
@t
Exploitation is wrong.
It only makes sense if you don’t care about the country.
1
There’s a documentary called Uberland premiering at the NYC Film Festival in May. Check it out!
4
A company whose business plan requires finding thousands of people willing to work for relative peanuts does not sound like a viable enterprise. Either the unhappy Peter Ashlock is an outlier or those who are touting Uber's stock as a good investment are out and out liars.
6
This article reinforces why I'll never be a customer of this service. When it sounds too good to be true it always is. Along with stories about sexual harassment, criminal behavior by drivers and the unregulated atmosphere they seem to thrive on. Unfortunately, my fearless college age kids don't seem to be very concerned and that's exactly what Uber is counting on.
5
If all Uber drivers made a one day, international work stoppage the company would be brought to its knees immediately. The leverage is there. Let’s see how long it takes to use it. The time for organizing labor is here. Otherwise, all we get are stories of corporate abuse and greed. And, of course, Congress won’t take an initiative. The drivers must stand up like the teachers are doing!
6
Uber and Lyft drivers - unionize! What is so hard to understand about that?
3
@Bob G.They are not employees and therefore have no protection under law pertaining to unionization - they run their own individual businesses with their own cars and pay Uber for the sales leads . The laws that protect employees and allow them to attempt to unionise would not protect them and Uber would, undoubtedly, refuse them access to the Uber app if they did.
2
Uber and Lyft and the other gigster companies are considered valuable because their business model is that of increasing efficiency-- linking unused resources (people with cars and time) to those that want the resources. From that limited perspective, the gigster companies have value.
The intent, or at least the original intent, despite the media frenzy and legions of poster children, is not to create a viable way to make a living as a gigster.
Greedy capitalists realized that the limit is: everyone is a gigster (except the Piketty capital owners) paid at the lowest marginal rate, which is defined as what someone would be willing to work for in their spare time. Children, medical coverage, commuting, paying for a movie, vacation, rent: not our problem; get a day job dude.
1
The extraordinary scamming and usurpation of what was to have been the "sharing economy"
4
I wonder if the 40000 is what he he really makes or what he reports to the IRS
2
Given Uber riders charge their rides on credit cards and Uber in turn pays the drivers, it’s likely the only income the drivers can hide from the IRS is cash tips. I doubt that’s a lot of money for most drivers. So, if this guy’s reported income from Uber is 40K, that’s what he’s making.
2
@EAH With 50,000 Ubers and Lyfts invading San Francisco daily (often coming from hundreds of miles away) and being the number one cause of the City's horrendous traffic problem, I am amazed that he actually made that much.
2
@EAH I don't understand how he can owe 5,000 taxes if he only makes 40,000.
2
I think you should come and do a story here in India (specifically Mumbai) too where many Uber drivers are regretting the decision to get into their net. Let them be warned before it is too late.
1
I have not seen anyone mention Insurance cost. Are drivers reporting to their insurance companies that they are using their car as a company? Surely this must be an additional cost. If they are not reporting it to their insurance companies, what happens if they have an at fault accident? Do they have to lie and neglect to tell the insurance company that the accident happened while they were driving their car for Uber or do they say it happened on the way to the grocery store?
Many years ago while going to school I drove a taxi. I know from personal experience that the insurance on a Taxi is much mnore expensive than your private car.
8
Uber: "We'll hire you and, if we deem it's in our interest, fire you. We'll assign our work to you. We'll dictate the wages paid and benefits (in our case; none) and, for our trouble, we'll designate you a contractor and garnish a quarter of your wages, off the top."
Welcome to the new peonage.
10
@Buck Flagg
They don't have to fire you, they disable your app and you are just instantly gone.
1
Uber drivers let alone corporate Uber didn't care about devaluing medallions, adding to congestion, and undermining regulations.
Why should I care about uber payouts? Hopefully none off my funds will be invested, but the stock market ponzi scheme lives on.
1
Taxi service in San Francisco essentially killed itself through monopolistic practices and a refusal to implement a combined dispatch service - meaning you had to call each taxi service individually when you wanted a ride. Then they'd often fail to pick you up, claiming you weren't there when they showed up - when you always were. No one in SF sheds a tear for the cab services of old and while Uber/Lyft may have their issues, there's always a ride-sharing service available when you need them.
11
@ShaneI live in San Francisco. Agree to disagree. But I disagree. Very much.
Same in NYC, except you couldn’t call for a ride, you had to stand in the street and hope you could find an empty one.
Give me UBER any day over dirty and smelly cabs
1
"According to Uber, he had made 25 trips in nine hours. He earned $200 in rides after Uber’s commission, plus $11 in tips"
Forget about Uber and their policies - what about the meanness of the riders, who are not even tipping well? 25 trips, and $11 in tips??
20
So get another job if you don’t like driving for Uber. A starving artist with little money at 71 shouldn’t be laying his problems at Uber’s feet. He chose to be a cab driver back in the day, great for his artistry perhaps, but not a job that promotes growth and wealth. And I too am a struggling artist.
10
@Devin Please tell me where this other job might be so I can go stand in line. I'm sure there must be a long line for people my age, because there is no one interested in older folks by and large, other than those with attitudes similar to Uber.
12
@Peter
Unfortunately, nobody is going to figure out for you what you should do. But you could concentrate on your art and maybe do a few more commercially viable items and sell them? Drive only when the payout is maximum? (I understand there is some variability based on demand.) Lease a newer and more efficient car (that has a warranty)? Save for taxes as you earn?
Should have planned your life better
I’ve taken Uber and Lyft three times, long ago, and decided soon after to never do it again. I’ve used a reliable taxi service for many years (where the drivers make a decent living), and that’s what I’ll continue to use.
As long as people use Lyft and Uber, they are supporting the companies’ abuse of their drivers.
9
Peter’s view of Uber is exactly the one I came to after 2.5 years driving, and we share the 4.93 rating. My regards, man! If a person drives Uber for a living, they will be able to get by, but not be making enough to buy another car when the one they have times out. So — sorry this sounds so depressing — they will end up with no car, no work, and no savings. Honestly, probably in debt. I think a lot of people do it because it appeals to their pride to say they are independent and self-employed. It’s a brilliant scheme! Do the words scheme and scam come from the same root?
17
The gig economy is facilitated by politicians who are bought off by the elite to further allow exploitation of the many for the vast benefit of the few.
No pensions, no benefits, no profit sharing, no job protection, no raise, no work rules. Everything the vampires and Silicon Valley bros want and nothing, at all, that is good for the workers.
And then the zillionaires at the top demand a tax break for "creating jobs".
And the Washington lap dogs give it to them.
14
The fact that they have so many drivers though, offers clear evidence that these jobs are preferable to other alternatives
Most Uber (and Juno,Gett, Lyft etc) drives I have spoken to around the country have some gripes but are genuinely grateful for the flexibility and freedom. Many drive as a side job or part time, or as part of “retirement” in some cases.
5
When autonomous cars will be a reality, none of the drivers are gong to have these problems. The car maintenance will also be handled by someone else.
2
@Not Convinced
You might also assume that the costs will be passed on the consumer because the owner of the so called driverless car will not be passing it on to anyone else. This is what has kept the cost of an Uber ride so low, the driver is subsidizing the ride and the company is reaping the benefit.
2
@Peter
You are partly correct. My point is when the software and tech is ready, they will not need drivers as long as the tech is cheaper than the driver. Drivers cannot count on this as a (long) career. Just like there are no coachmen and horse drawn carriages anymore and there are no complaints about their pay and need to stable and feed their horses and their vet bills, etc.
1
Cities and counties need to take the idea of "ride hailing" tech, the algorithms, etc. and use it to re-conceptualize public mass transit.
The notion of fixed routes and timetables holds everything back.
Along with an employee owned business approach that I mentioned below, re-designed mass public transit could put Uber out of business.
3
@Tom - I have tried to imagine. It gave me a headache. The only way it will ever happen in a city like SF is through intense political pressure supported by the populace at large. But I'm also thinking of other cities that have underdeveloped systems. This is the time to expand, in the right direction.
1
I'm torn regarding Uber. I know it's exploitative but they provide a necessary service.
I typically take the bus to and from work; however, if I am at work late at night, Uber is a great alternative to waiting 45+ minutes in a so-so area for a bus after 11pm.
Before Uber, I could sometimes take a taxi, but often, the driver would not want to take me home as the ride would leave him in a residential area unable to pick up a new fare (even though home is only 6 miles from the office). If I could get the taxi to take me "out of the way", I'd need to have cash and I'd have to walk around a few blocks in order to find a taxi. In my city, there are no "standards" for taxis, so sometimes the backseat was missing seatbelts or the car was otherwise poorly maintained (and frequently poorly driven!)
With the advent of Uber, I can order a ride from safety of the office and wait inside with the security guard until the car arrives. I've never gotten attitude from the driver about going to a residential neighborhood and both the car and the driving skills are up-to-date. There is also a digital footprint of where and with whom I am. I make sure to always tip the driver because the service provided is truly appreciated.
7
Interestingly, as exploitive and valuable as Uber is, it's still gonna lose $2 billion this year.
5
There is also the practice when they enter a market they hire some Political insiders for protection. Saw this when they entered Canada, hired a bunch of party-in-power hacks for protection. Right-Left doesn't matter - and there goes the labor laws, car regulations, insurance mandates.
Only way they can get away with breaking all those regulations.
8
Over 5.000 trips..my favorite, 12 minutes to pick up ride, had to pay a $1.25 toll...ride took 6 minutes...my gross comp $3.03 (Uber's minimum payout..
3
@Ron S.
Uber makes the driver pay the toll? What happens if the toll is greater than the minimum payout? Like going across GWB ($12)? (I'm not much of an Uber rider).
2
if he doesn't like it, he can quit or do something else or set up a competing company. this republican attitude is why I'm drifting away from the party.
5
@Greg Jones
Not everyone is interested or even able to "set up a competing company". If you think there are lots of other jobs that are sufficiently competitive, that would make better money, by all means feel free to tell me where the line starts for seventy year old artists. I'm all ears.
3
Let's see if I have this straight. Uber has never made money and is not making money now. In addition, they do not have a sustainable business model, so the chances that they will ever turn a profit are extremely slim.
Nevertheless, undeterred by this factual analysis, they are planning an IPO which is projected to drag in millions of dollars from "investors" (really speculators).
Is there anything at all wrong here? Is this the way businesses or the stock market are supposed to operate?
27
On a night in San Francisco, Ashlock gave rides to 25 different passengers and received only $11 total in tips. I guess tipping online rather than in person plays to the darker side of human nature. "If no one's looking I can skip the tip." Ugh. Passengers appear to be a big part of the problem facing ride share drivers.
23
@Standup Girl
No, that isn't it at all. On Uber, tipping is not expected. They only added to the app the ability to give tips after some people complained that there was no option to give/get tips. In my experience, drivers do not expect tips other than for extraordinary effort or circumstances
@Standup Girl
The people who usually tip are the ones with less money. They understand.
12
@Standup Girl
You have this just about right. Compared to the incidence of tipping in a taxi or a restaurant, the actual numbers of tips is rather forgettable. In the seventies, after a night of driving I might take home $25 in tips, now it is less than an afterthought.
2
After the initial money and hype based stock values shred by big sharks, in this decade this gig economy riding companies left their own fate.
There is no such thing you do not have profit but you are a lucrative company in stock exchange. So sharks are going to get their money during IPO and lots of small fishes will catch up the net and never see an appreciation to their investment.
3
Here is how to really challenge Uber and Lyft.
Create a Drivers' Coop, in which the drivers ARE the shareholders, with a small piece of their fee going to the cooperative for administrative costs.
There's more than one way to own a company in a capitalist economy.
I don't use Uber because of their reputation and use Lyft only rarely. But I would use a Drivers' Coop service regularly.
21
@J Jencks we have something like that in the Houston area. It is called Taxi Club Greater Houston. Would be willing to help other groups of drivers do the same.
www.taxiclubhou.com
4
@J Jencks
Newsflash - this is the way many taxi companies already operate. Most are not able to operate profitably. Part of the problem is that most people (me included) have had such horrible experiences with taxis that, after having experienced Uber & Lyft, they will never go back to the shoddy cars, rude drivers, and terrible customer service that typify taxi companies.
3
@GMooG - As you describe it, your taxi companies have failed to absorb the lessons of Uber and Lyft. I'm saying, absorb the lessons, model their technology, then do it as a profit sharing employee owned business. If that means drivers get rated by passengers and that bad ratings can reduce a driver's share of the profit, then we might start getting somewhere.
If taxi companies had been competent and the general population happy with their services and cost, Uber and Lyft would never have gotten off the ground.
To compete with them, match their prices and services, AND treat drivers decently. A cooperative would be effective.
1
Guesstimates of the actual cost to drivers of driving a vehicle range from about $.50-61/mile (roughly what the IRS calculates as what's fair reimbursement for costs of driving) up to $1 per mile including additional costs such as parking (see Santa Cruz County CA webpage True Cost of Driving - which notes that the public pays about $.40/mile for people to drive as well - which we need to consider as we build/maintain and charge for access to public roads).
Uber and Lyft and their drivers are counting on avoiding many of these actual costs. But there's no free lunch.
When Prius models were initiated as taxis, brake replacement costs and lower gasoline costs resulted in about a 40% reduction of driving costs; hybrids are especially helpful in congested areas since engines can turn off at idling, and the hybrid system reduces brake replacements by recharging the batteries from braking.
So I believe that vehicles, whether self-driving or driven by contractors like Uber, Lyft or taxi companies, should be required to be hybrids for an assortment of reasons, including transitioning to a low-carbon economy. And the systems we allow to use public roads should ensure that the full costs of using public roads are paid by the users, including pollution, accidents etc - as detailed by Santa Cruz County's website (and common sense).
Should large corporations be able to sell at a loss for many years until gaining market share enough to raise prices? It is a nasty capitalism.
5
Most UBER Drivers in SF use Praises,because of the high cost of fuel in California. Good Luck to Dara Kharashoski on the IPO.
I used to pet sit and I was an independent contractor for a service. As a part timer, it was a great job for supplemental income and the tips were great. I could pick and choose when I wanted to work, and which jobs I'd take. It was much easier than taking on a "scheduled" job, as I also worked part time.
The people who were full time sitters really struggled, especially during slow times. Most of them ended up working every weekend, and then had odd schedules like 6am-8 (morning pet care) 11-2 (afternoons) 4-6 (dinner) and 8-10- evening. So their days were oddly broken up too.
I imagine that this is what Uber is like- as a part time way to make money, it's handy. But as a career? Nope, because to make it work, you work an insanely odd schedule based on demand.
9
The company is losing money despite ripping off their drivers. Meanwhile they destroyed the legitimate taxi business which did make money and from which drivers could make a living.
Yay?
9
@John It is true that Taxi was a legitimate business but Slavery was also a legitimate business. Being a legitimate business does not mean the business should live forever. Taxi businesses were unfair to drivers. No taxi driver ever did more than just barely get by while taxi business owners became rich. Taxis are out of business because they were greedy and did not care for the drivers.
6
NYC taxi medallions went for 1,000,000 before ridesharing, but the drivers were little more than indentured servants.
3
@RL RL, it sounds like you are talking about Uber, not about the taxi business.
When you are a cab driver , you are not on the hook for a large number of expenses. If you you read this article you can see the driver actually made more as a cab driver than as an Uber driver. And at age 71 why should he have to drive like a slave.
Your countries obsession with "freedom" leads you to some pretty stupid situations. Uber loses a ton of money and by no means should be viewed as a strong business model.
3
Totally criminal. People driving for Uber are getting robbed because they’re not factoring in the cost of maintaining their own car. This is why it’s much MUCH better to have the company own and maintain the car, it makes income clearer and easier to calculate for their workers, and makes it much more obvious to them whether or not they’re getting robbed (which in Uber’s case, they are)
9
@David Clarkson
"...it’s much MUCH better to have the company own and maintain the car"
Thanks, Captain Obvious. It's also much better (for me) if my company pays me regardless of whether I produce or sell anything. But that isn't likely to change soon.
1
Driving for one of the services is a personal choice. There was never any guarantee of money when these folks signed up to drive.
10
@James - So what was there a guarantee of, a wish and a dream? These people didn’t expect millions, but they did expect a living wage and Uber’s business advertising never led them to believe it would be otherwise. They deserved that, not some claptrap from you about how this was a choice they made and they shouldn’t have really, at the end of the day, expected to get paid for it.
4
@Lindsay K
The terms of the deal were clearly laid out. No one forced anyone to drive for Uber, etc. If they aren't making the money they need, they should quit and find another job.
@Lindsay K
No, I don't think uber ever promised a living wage. Living wage is such a generic term anyway.
In Europe they take a more flexible approach to the needs of riders.... offering on the spot small car rentals on city streets (essentially identical to the scooter services that are becoming popular here in the US). Of course that does not allow someone who wants to drive-for-hire through a ride sharing service to earn a part time income though.
1
@Chuck Car share, as you're describing, also exists in many U.S. cities. Car2Go is the biggest one in Denver but there are a few others, too. As someone who doesn't own a car they're quite handy to use on occasion, but I still wish they had stuck with the little smart cars rather than switching to Mercedes Benz (owner of Car2Go) and increasing the per minute charge by something like 20 cents.
1
Interesting how Uber is taking such large fees, is valued at $100b yet is bleeding money. There are no profits in sight for the short term.
5
I'll just note that Lyft shares are down 30% since their IPO three weeks ago.
Neither they, nor Uber, have a sustainable business model.
17
Would there be an Uber if we 'the riders' paid the actual cost of the ride?
It's kind of like climate change right? Would we all still be driving gas guzzling cars and using coal energy if we had to pay the actual cost of that energy?
Probably not.
22
I’m curious to know why Uber takes such a large share. All of the risk that actually had made Uber rich is taken on by the driver, who should then earn the lion share of the ride. Uber is just another greedy corporation that does not care one iota about who actually makes it work.
30
Gig economy just means that the worker’s so called flexibility is compensated by a complete lack of benefits and pricing power of their services.
Given this is the future of our economy, there should be a Gig-employer tax that forces employers who profit from such arrangements to pay equivalent federal and state taxes to pay for the services that these workers require.
The Uber founders are robber barons no different than those of prior generations who employed Pinkerton agents to terrorize their workers. At least some of those Oligarchs became charitable in their dotage and set up publicly beneficial foundations and institutions. Hard to see the Kalanick Zuckerberg Hastings doing anything like that.
Unions are the only way that low to moderately skilled workers have ever had to ensure their contributions to a public or private enterprise are valued fairly.
Agree that the long term play for Uber and Lyft is self driving cars replacing the human bots they are forced to pay today.
I am constantly amazed at the number of people driving practically new cars for UberX and how this model is sustainable with lease payments and mileage limits.
19
The false advertising settlement--that's the key. No, you don't have to drive for Uber, and you don't have to take Uber, but settled or not they successfully launched a myth about driving for Uber which still persists today. Given that this article is the first I heard about the false advertising suit, we need to emphasize it much more, because owning a car myself I know that even as an actual side gig Uber driving doesn't pay.
And seriously, offering $100 as a bonus to long-time drivers after an IPO? That's as much of a joke as a $30 bonus for 60 trips.
16
As I read through this story I kept hearing Tennessee Ernie Ford singing "16 Tons" in my head.
That song is not just about the price of beans at the "company store." In the 20s and 30s miners had to buy their own safety equipment in coal mines in central Utah. Also their own explosives and other mining gear. The price of all that was deducted from the value of the coal they mined.
That was pre-labor union, of course. The gig economy seems to be going back to that, with corporations providing the means at a price and independent contractors taking on the burden of the overhead.
It sounds great -- drive a bit extra, make some extra bucks -- but as anyone who has driven a lot for work, or for lyft and uber, can tell you, what they pay you for the milage never covers the cost of your car. Why do you think the company doesn't want to just give you one?
If you visit Helper, Utah, you can see how the economy for miners worked in a very nice little museum they have there.
20
@Charles Trentelman Matewan was a good film too.
7
I think Uber and Lyft are immoral businesses. I am shocked that Americans don't recognize how this type of business that is based on poor wages, no benefits and minimal checks on both the drivers' backgrounds and safety & maintenance on the cars. And all my friends who were so thrilled to pay less than they did for taxis are getting irritated that the cost of the Uber/Lyft rides seem to be going up. The new norms in our society are that people with money want something for nothing when it comes to services and the only financial winners are the disruptors who are tearing apart the economic fabric of American commercial life. It's a master/servant mentality.
19
@Katrina Chicago Americans appear to be monumentally stupid on this subject.
Not only is Uber stated goal is to create a monopoly in the cab industry, but when they do it, they want to raise prices across the board to be over what cabs charge now.
On top of this you get your lovely gouge of "surge pricing".
So, it Uber becomes more powerful that it is now, Americans and all users will be paying much much more than the prices now, and who is going to be happy with that ?
4
Hmm... in response to the gig economy, it sounds like we need a gig union. Meet power with power. Meanwhile, read "Winners Take All" by A. Giridharadas
7
What these articles almost always miss is the complacency and culpability of Uber/Lyft users. Many are quick to blame the companies for underpaying drivers, or quick to blame the drivers because they can quit at any time.
The blame also extends to users. Why? At this point, any user of ride-sharing services knows (or should know) that drivers get paid poorly. They also know that ride-sharing services are significantly cheaper than traditional services like taxis. Thus, users are quite literally taking advantage of service-industry workers (drivers) by choosing not to tip despite the fact that the workers are poorly paid. Both Uber and Lyft offer in-app tipping, yet a very small percentage of users actually tip their drivers; I collected, on average, $3-6 in tips per $100 earned in fares.
When do users of these ride-sharing services start accepting some of the responsibility for ensuring that drivers are sufficiently compensated?
14
@Colin
This is so true. I have driven as well, and people don't tip. I've happily put their suitcases in and out of my car and given them a really nice drive home, then nothing. It's because customers are asked if they want to tip often long after they are out of the car. Automatic, opt-out tipping should be an encouraged option for them. I spent most of my life giving not-great waiters and waitresses 15% because it was understood they received low wages, but of course they were standing there looking at me. Driving, they just walk away, smiling.
4
At the end of the day... people have vehicles and are looking for ways to monetize them.. either to cover vehicle costs or to earn income above costs.
Ride sharing companies are not the only ones tapping into the availability of drive-for-hire services. Amazon, for example, does more and more of it's deliver services in exactly the same way.... though the details of the method are different. They pay less per stop, but they also organize all deliveries into a essentially a stack to be picked up at X time at Y facility and the app they give drivers even plans out the exact routes for fastest delivery at lowest cost in miles.
My point here is it is not just the Ubers and Lyfts of the world tapping into the drive-for-hire business model. At some point I expect even the big delivery services like UPS and FedEx will be doing some portion of their deliveries this way as well.
Bottom line.. a vehicle sitting in someone's garage is a wasted asset to be tapped. If the model and logistics are developed and deployed in a manner that is attractive to some vehicle owners... it will proliferate and represents new avenues of part time income for drivers and improved costs of delivery for the underwriting business.
4
@Chuck
Bear in mind that our capitalistic economy deliberately destroyed public transportation to force the sale of cars which require massive taxation to support the road sprawl, and the car support economy, parts, repairs, maintenance, gas, insurance, actually deplete the spendable income. It is not too far fetched to say that our financial freedom has been confiscated by this folly.
8
@katesisco
Your point actually argues in favor of these ride sharing services, as it gives vehicle owners a part time method to defray the cost of their vehicle ownership.
Personally, I would rather see the handful of US cities (5 to be exact) that make up nearly 20% of total Uber ride sales take over ride sharing operations in their cities and offer it themselves as a public transportation adjunct to existing systems. Not that pubic transportation systems where I live were ever great to begin with.... but a municipally owned ride sharing system would be better for the public then Uber in my view.
3
I'm putting this out there for discussion: Isn't there an easy solution to this? If the gig economy pay so little....quit!
I'm open to hearing from folks, are there other jobs that pay more where you could get insurance and some leave time? Minimum wage is increasing.
Uber would go away if there were no drivers, or else they would be forced to pay the drivers more and treat them better if they wanted to remain in business.
I myself never have and never will take an Uber or a Lyft as they are not insured. Same with AirBnB. If there is an accident and you are in a taxi, you can sue the taxi company for your losses. Not true with Uber, Lyft. or AirBnB. I wonder if all customers are aware of this.
3
@PJ In correction, Airbnb carries a liability policy for accommodations. So you can pursue legal recourse if necessary.
1
@PJ ~ RE: "Minimum wage is increasing." Really??
The current federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour, and has not increased since July 2009. Some states, cities and counties have raised the minimum but the Federal minimum wage has not budged for 10 years. This helps explain why workers are willing to do these gig economy jobs.
4
@PJ I've talked with many drivers who do it because of the flexibility: lots of single moms who need a job that lets them work around picking their kids up at school, or people who are caring for an aging parent and have to periodically turn off the app so they can check on the person. There aren't too many jobs around that let you do that, so they're kind of stuck. It would help a lot of riders would tip consistently; I'm amazed that most do not. Come on, people!!
3
One of the big changes in America that occurred under Ronald Reagan was enshrining worker exploitation.
That policy is apparently accepted as “the way things should be”.
Things shouldn’t be that way.
It is wrong and it is destroying the country.
We need to rein in greed if we really want to make America great.
16
I began driving for Uber shortly after it entered the Charlotte market. Fares were higher then, and it was a decent part-time gig. Soon after, Uber started making cuts to their fares, telling drivers that even though fares were going down, drivers would make more money because there would be an uptick in riders. It's true—I did get more riders, but the bottom line was that I was putting more mileage on my vehicle for less money, especially when you factored in fares that go outside of busy areas. Uber doesn't consider the miles driven getting to or from a fare. All the while, this was before a tipping option was available, and Uber actively told riders *not* to tip because their drivers were being paid a living wage. Drivers were told to decline tips and to only accept them after riders insisted. Further, on the occasions that I complained about extremely problematic passengers, I was told that the rating system would weed them out. I quit within a year.
Meanwhile, I recently had a fake Uber account created with one of my emails and credit cards. It took a week for Uber to resolve the issue, and I was never able to get a human on the phone. Did you know that Uber doesn't have a customer service phone line? I resorted to continuously blasting them on social media to finally get a response. If I didn't hate them before, I definitely hated them after that. This podcast discusses a very similar experience: https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/91-the-russian-passenger
12
I would disagree that “Uber doesn’t factor in the miles added to your car”
Uber knows exactly how much those miles added to your car are going to cost. That’s why they choose not to own the cars. They pay their drivers like they don’t realize how much it’s going to cost because they expect their drivers won’t realize how much it’s going to cost, and they can make more money if their drivers make less.
It’s not naïveté, it’s exploitation.
7
@David Clarkson - Oh, I certainly wasn't implying that Uber is oblivious; it's obvious that they just don't care. And as many of the commenters in this thread indicate, they don't care either. Uber is convenient, and it's the fault of drivers for choosing to drive in the first place. They could just go somewhere else, right? Let the market sort it out. As if that works.
Like many people, I decided to drive for Uber after an extended period of underemployment. I (as most people) would have preferred a single full time job with benefits, which continues to remain elusive years later. As I now pursue a graduate degree, which I am lucky to be able to do without accruing massive student debt, I worry that it will never be enough.
3
Tell your insurance company that you drive for Uber and watch how fast you are canceled. No personal policy would ever cover an accident that happen driving for Uber.
13
"Freedom of working" is gig economy's biggest lie. Dodging the traditional employer-employee model that offered protection and benefits for the workers, the supposed "freedom" offers nothing for the workers. Silicon Valley relies on these hired hands, much like the pharaohs relied on slaves to built their pyramids and plantation owners relied on their slaves to amass their fortunes. When will we truly abolish the slave system?
196
@Momo
The real question is: how do we raise fares to match a "living wage" equivalent? I assume fares are so low because that is what the market demands. If fares were, say 30% higher, with 22% of that going to the driver, this particular driver would have made an extra $61 on this particular night. Yet, if Uber raised fares 30% unilaterally and said "we are paying our drivers more, essentially a living wage", would the market reward or punish them?
The consumer may be to blame here, as the cheapest fare rate is getting rewarded in the marketplace.
Also, what may happen is that drivers walk as driving is no longer worth the effort. That will raise wages in the short term, but if autonomous cars come into widespread use, you can eliminate the human element entirely and unfortunately we will be talking not about drivers' wages, but about the long lines down at the unemployment office
9
@Momo
Maybe communism will free us all. Maybe but very unlikely.
1
@Momo
Very well said Momo!!
Being an uber driver was never really meant to be a career. It was spawned during the great recession as part of the gig economy. Emphasis on "gig."
If you can make a career out of it, great. But don't be disappointed when you can't put your kids through college on those earnings when 10 years ago, it was a choice between drive for uber or be homeless.
77
@MacGyver Did you read the article? This particular driver was a cabbie before - he wasn't homeless. Being a cabbie was a career. Are you against that? If so, you're against a service economy - which is fantastical.
Uber/Lyft undid the model of cab drivers. I'm not saying that was wrong of them; their technology was better. However, their business model is exploitative. And your comment doesn't speak to that in the slightest.
23
@MacGyver, what was meant doesn't matter. The point is that Uber's (and probably Lyft's as well) business model hinges on there being a significant number of people willing to receive less than 40%, by one estimate, of the fares they generate. No cheap labor, no business.
11
@jas
Being a candlesticker maker was once a career. So was being a cooper, or a farrier. Things change. Is it society's obligation to compensate everyone who failed to see the glacier coming at them?
6
The example of Mr Ashlock captures the realities of the new gig based economy.
Having run a small business in the same area, a restaurant, we partnered with UberEats.
UberEats sells local restaurant food (its partners) to customers through an app. The restaurant makes the food and Uber drivers pick up and deliver the prepared and boxed food to customers. Simple and easy.
The other side of the coin is that for its part of the effort, Uber takes a 30% cut of the total tab (before tax).
Call it a marketing fee, delivery fee or whatever, the partner fee taken by Uber, pays for the driver and enriches the share riding company. And the restaurant partner is left to figure out how to make money on their food.
One way to handle this for the restaurant is to raise prices to UberEats customers (for the convenience of receiving freshly cooked food to their home, hotel or office).
But the larger issue is that Uber takes a handsome cut, for each and every order filled. And this process ensures that Uber keeps a straw squarely placed into the payment stream that flows, from customer to restaurant and driver.
No matter how pleased you may be with the service provided by Uber, as a share riding company or delivery driver, the fees captured by Uber along the way, funnels money away from those actors who performed the service, to Uber management and shareholders.
9
@Andrew B This is an interesting complaint. My question is would those customers have discovered your business without UberEats?
How much would it have cost you to hire a delivery person?
How much would it have cost you to hire a marketing person for your business to get the same level of orders that UberEats is giving you?
I hear all these complaints about Uber, but the people complaining are still working with or for the company.
Is your restaurant doing better because of your partnership with Uber or are you being hurt by it?
If you are being hurt by the partnership, will you be ending your relationship with them?
@Andrew B Why did your restaurant agree to give 30% of your delivery tabs? Why not just hire a delivery person?
2
The issue is that the IRS and the State take far too much for taxes. We are being enslaved by our own Democratic government, while McConnell, Pelosi and many others get wealthy. It's not UBER's fault, it is our elected officials taking too much and giving so little.
3
Let me get this straight. The guy drove passengers in the 70s while he was trying to become an artist. He drives passengers while trying to become an artist in 2019. The article doesn't indicate he's gained any marketable skills during this time. His "art" mocks a person he voluntarily contracts for. That art is presumably unsellable. And I'm supposed to feel bad for him because...???
11
@jazzerooni
Because not everyone lives their lives in the most perfect, best way, not does everyone make the most profitable decisions. This shouldn't be derided, we owe much to those who take chances in life, whatever they may choose, however it turns out. Not everyone can just be a tech person in a STEM job, not everyone has the time money or ability to develop marketable skills in the best way.
Also, I don't believe you're "supposed to feel bad for him" instead open your eyes and think critically about this stuff.
13
@jazzerooni
Art is a passion of the artist. History is filled with starving artists... making ends meet through side jobs as best they can.
So, I don't feel sorry for this driver, but I do admire him as I can see what he is doing.... trying to earn enough income to pay his bills while following his passion.. which is art and for most artists.. their art does not pay their bills.
8
Most drivers state that Uber / Lyft is far better than working in retail. Drivers get tips and work when they want. So it good for many drivers, particularly those seeking supplementary income.
Obviously this is not enough for Ashlock with California's high cost of living, wife with medical problems, and no lifetime savings.
Given that Uber is unproven as a business model, with little visibility of any profit, this IPO exercise is a bit of a sham.
An institutional flim-flam, wherein the Powers that Be offload their low cost shares upon the public, before the music stops.
The Powers know that the music will stop, and that the sucker window will close soon enough. Watch out below on this one.
6
Is Uber the only exploiter? Mr. Ashlock made $11 in tips on $200 in fares, which is 5.5%. This is in San Francisco, where, although some riders were likely tourists, plenty were probably in a high income bracket and routinely pay their baristas a 20% tip. I find that equally pathetic.
19
@Christine
I'm not rich or in a financial position to be a tourist very often. However, I tip at all restaurants, my hair salon, and for any takeout I do. People with any smarts know workers at many jobs (including Uber) are not paid well. That, unfortunately, is why we peons feel responsible for our fellow/sister serfs and tip accordingly.
3
Honest questions: If Uber is such a raw deal for the drivers, why are there so many Uber drivers? No one has a gun to your head, do something else to earn a living....
9
@Tom Why do people wait tables or work at WalMart? They do it because people sometimes take undesirable positions to put food on the table and make ends meet.
Would you prefer they end up homeless and on government assistance instead?
15
I've driven for Uber too and can confirm that it is a total rip off for the drivers -– just another heartless scam for the fat cats at the top to exploit us.
13
Help me understand. The driver owns, and maintains the vehicle, and does 100% of the work, and Uber gets to keep all the profits.
Such a deal.
Uber is an insidious and grotesque reinventing of slave labor.
13
@Truth Is True.
Unlike drivers Uber actually loses money
@Truth Is True.
Uber does not get to keep all the profits. In fact, Uber does not even make a profit. As for drivers... it is incumbent on the driver to figure out if driving for a ride sharing company is right for them, and if it generates enough income after expenses for them.
Different drivers have different motives for doing drive-for-hire.
I'm not a fan of Uber, but man... are you kind of over the top with rhetoric here.
3
Up here in Montreal, our taxi drivers are demonstrating and complaining about Uber. The provincial government will be "compensating" the taxi drivers a sum of $ 500,000,000.00 but the taxi drivers say that that is not enough!
Well...........
Nobody is forcing you to be a taxi driver, and nobody is twisting your arm to be an Uber driver!
3
One big problem is Uber’s initial policy of not allowing tips for drivers. That’s changed, but either customers don’t know about it or would prefer to stick with no tips. That grates on you while you wipe vomit from your personal car’s seat.
10
Flash. You do not have to work for Uber.
Quit today if dissatisfied.
7
Isn't the theme of the article that the one percent is going to make a lot of money from a business that is not good for the drivers?
@clarity007 I just wrote a reply to another commentator. Remember, he's in his 70's. I'm 60. I was laid off in my 50's and could not find a job to save my life. I now work in security. It's half of what I made. It's mind numbing and I fight daily to keep my brain alive. It's not easy to find new work when you're older. I've had friends in all kinds of professions lose jobs due to "restructuring" in their mid to late 50"s. No one is talking about this.
4
If you don't like it, quit.
4
Whether you can quit is
not the issue. The issue is a fundamental one of fair labor practices. Uber takes an excessive percentage of the fee. It acts like an employer in numerous ways - sets rates, it sets the fees, it decides incentives, it provides employee supervision and can fire you for bad reviews. Yet its workers have no employee benefits or protections of any kind. This is the problem. Whether you choose to drive for Uber or not.
6
Gig economy? Uhmm no!
Capitalism is surely heading toward modern day slavery...
6
Why does the Times continue to use “ride sharing” to describe services like Uber and Lyft? There is no sharing involved. It clouds the conversation when that term is used to describe what is obviously a livery service.
9
Sorry zero sympathy for Uber-X drivers.
I work for a dying breed. . . an actual, professional limousine company. All our cars have CA TCP numbers. We are regulated by the state PUC, our drivers have undergone criminal background checks, and we do random drug testing.
We TRAIN our drivers before putting them on the road, as opposed to Uber-X where it seems that if you have a driver's license, you are good to go. We also do re-currency training to make sure their driving continues to be safe and courteous.
Watching Uber-X drivers at the airports is cringe-inducing. Not only are they oblivious to road safety, you can count on them to blast around you and cut you off to grab a space you were easing into.
The airport cops will walk past a Uber car parked in the Red Zone to yell at or ticket a TCP-stickered car for an airport infraction. They invariably say, "You are a pro. You should know better."
I've ridden with Uber-X a few times. Far and away the most unskilled and discourteous driver on the road.
12
@joe Zero sympathy for "professional" limo drivers who now have to share the ride biz they and taxis have had for themselves for 80 years with tens of thousands of newly legalized Uber/Lyft drivers -- who, despite their driving flaws -- are providing millions of people a day who can't afford a government-privileged limo or ratty taxi with affordable, reliable and safe transportation.
Seems like the goal of most of the "disruption" of modern tech companies ...is to enslave workers somewhere. Or at least shackle them to a ball and chain and then declare them free. Spartacus, where are you??
5
@Dana "disruption" is indeed just a way to avoid regulations. Like the privatization of the prisons or military or police. More ways to "create shareholder value" for the elites and the haves in our greed economy.
2
The worst part to me is all of these Uber drivers will be discarded go the wayside once Uber gets it's fleet of driverless cars going, in probably less than 10 years. The people who work for Uber are just a stopgap, a tool to gain value so that they can reach their ultimate goal of driverless cars (don't have to pay employees or deal with a union when it's AI driven). Only a matter of time.
10
Bottom line : Uber and Lyft can succeed because there are too many job seekers and not enough jobs. And there will be fewer jobs once they switch to driver-less cars (and the trucking companies switch to driver-less trucks...).
5
Uber is losing nearly $2 billion a year, yet its IPO will make many investors incredibly rich.
Tell me what's wrong with this picture?
9
@PaulB67
This is actually rather normal. It is always the investors that get rich. Been that way since before the industrial age began.
You don't have to like it, but it is what it is in capitalist economies.
@Chuck
This is not Normal, This companies will feasting investors money for an unpredictable future.
When driverless cars introduced they are hoping that they will be very profitable. Till that moment they are telling investors look this is all about creating a market which we will be the main pillars who come after us will get only minor piece.
Of course what is interesting , last 10 years a company doesn't show a profit and still major investors make huge profit , himm who was the guy who created 150 billion dollar hedge fund , Madoff.
Let see when this Ponzi scheme will blow the face.
When public and states requires from the Hail companies their fair share what they are using from our cities ( infrastructure) and not paying enough to update. these scheme will crumble like a house of cards.
3
I hate to say it, but the fact is that nobody forces these people do work for Uber or at any other job. People chose to work these "jobs". If they aren't happy with the pay, then they should find a different line of work.
I don't understand purpose of this article. Anybody with a elementary grasp of basic arithmetic can do the numbers to see that it doesn't make sense to work for Uber as a driver.
After reading this article, I still don't understand why Mr. Ashlock continues to work for pennies an hour. A single question would have made this a good article. Namely, "Mr. Ashlock, why do you continue to do this work when you know that it pays very little (if anything) at the end of the day?"
7
@Frank People do it because their other options are very limited. Why do people work at McDonalds? Why do people wait tables? It's not because they want to, it's because they need to do something to keep a roof over their heads and food in the mouths of their families.
Would you rather them not do this, and, instead, end up applying for government assistance?
A small income is still better than no income at all.
6
@Frank With all due respect to Mr. Ashlock, based on this biased and info-challenged article, he's not a good Uber/Lyft driver. There are another 44,999 or so Uber/Lyft drivers working in SF. Most are part-time.Under 12 hours a week. Most work weekends, when demand is high and fares are higher. It's a part-time job. If you drive 40 hours a week, you probably shouldn't drive an old tank. You probably shouldn't work nine hours on Wednesday night if you want to maximize your earnings. He grossed $25 an hour, less expenses, obviously. All Uber markets are different. But based on what I know about Ubering/Lyfting after four-years of driving for them in Pittsburgh, he should be able to make closer to $35 or $40 driver in SF on weekends.
3
In my country Sweden Uber pop is not legal. Only Uber black is and the drivers have to have taxi licence and get paid better. Its better this way, we cant have people working for so little money.
200
@MM
It is a very limited market in most countries to run Uber Black only. Reason: cost to the rider, as it is basically private limo style fees.
In the long run, I think as one or more of these ride sharing companies are forced into bankruptcy down the line (due to no viable profit model), the ride sharing economy will collapse.
10
In a decent country this would be the minimum regulation imposed by the government. Everyone of you readers, using uber or lyft, is complicit in the exploitation of these "contractors."
25
@MM
That's interesting. I took an Uber in Stockholm and the driver was amazing. He did mention that he also drove limos etc. His car was a very nice Mercedes. I don't remember the fee being that high for the trip.
I think the main difference in Stockholm vs the US is that Stockholms transit system is amazing. I only took the uber because of my luggage.
10
Drivers have the power to improve their terms with Uber/Lyft. Every Friday night for the next 4 weeks turn off their cars between 3pm eastern time and 2am pacific time.
But, we know they won’t make the sacrifice to take collective action. They will wait with false hopes that politicians will help them.
5
I don't think Uber ever billed itself to prospective drivers as the sole means of making a living. And given the potential threat of violence to drivers or passengers, one cannot understand why they would risk their lives and the devaluing of their second most valuable asset (an automobile) by putting themselves on the street.
3
I find Uber and Lyft to be extremely useful, especially when traveling for business, and not having to rent a car.
That said, I always try to tease out how much money the drivers actually make. More often than not, they seem satisfied, but the numbers just don't add up when you include the gas, depreciation, etc. Given the high cost of living where Uber/Lyft are most popular, it's hard to understand how that's sustainable.
For better or for worse, the companies are setting up for a driver-less future - in 10-20 years ?
3
A few thoughts.
The individual stories here confirm my suspicions that driving for Uber or Lyft is not a sustainable "gig" but there is not enough info in this article to quantify the "income outcome" for the average driver. NYTIMES, please take this extra step in your reporting to us.
On the surface, even though it will of course help some, I don't think tipping will fix the problem. First - again, we need more financial details - but a generous 20% more on a net income of $20k would change that income to $24k. Let's double that to allow that tips might be on a gross ride amount (without everyone typing or typing the full 20% though): so $28k. Better but not enough. Second, because we humans love a deal and will rush to buy the cheaper product with good enough quality (although sometimes even without the quality); Uber and Lyft got customers because they are cheaper - tipping enough to make a real difference might nix that. Customers might stay with the services because of the convenience but would likely use them less.
The gigging model provides more benefits to the corporation. The corporation shifts much of its prior "obligations" (health insurance, disability insurance, vacation pay, etc.) and the costs/overhead of administering such to the contractor. Many of these hours spent by contractors implement many of these benefits or costs for others (vacation pay) seem not to be included in any analysis.
Apologies for the rough math due to lack of info.
5
Another job that is a side gig for someone that has a regular job . Mc Donald’s and Uber are not careers. But many unskilled immigrants take this job believing that they can become rich. Driving for Uber is a lose lose if you depend on it for a living. There is a glut of them despite any law. T plates are everywhere. The truth is politicians want unskilled labor for votes. The economy will not need them soon, within 15 years all lower level jobs will be automated. What we do need is very skilled labor for specific jobs.
5
This was the whole point of the criminal racket that is "ride sharing".
Disrupt the whole industry by making the driver carry all of the expenses that the cab company is supposed to carry and pocket the difference.
7
@magicisnotreal
Many cab companies already make drivers carry much, if not all, the expense of the cabs. They may or may not get free maintenance, but most have to either buy the cab or lease it from the cab company and are responsible for all fuel costs as well. They also pay back a fee for dispatch services and various other fees.
@Chuck
According to the law the legal real cab driver gets paid a reasonable sum. Owning your own cab or leasing has always been the case in the livery business. Uber et al specifically set up their business as they have to skirt the laws and regulations.
Don't forget that they did not invent a new kind of livery service they invented a faster dispatch system. Then instead of using it to make cab service better, they used to destroy the lives of millions so they could grab more cash than selling or licensing the dispatch system would make them without regard for the harm they did to do so.
1
@Chuck Historically, the politically connected, often corrupt and very greedy taxicab monopolies in every major city charged high daily or weekly lease rates, plus drivers had to "tip" dispatchers to get good rides and "tip" garage guys to get good cabs (i.e., ones that weren't dented or didn't stink). The high fixed costs of getting a cab for a day or a week is why so many cabbies -- most of whom were 1099 employees w/o benefits, like Uber/Lyft drivers -- had to drive 14 and 16 hour days and live in their cabs. Uber/Lyft have their flaws, as any driver knows. But the romantic myths and retro-love so many of the Uber/Lyft haters hold for the taxi era is belied by the facts.
2
I am very disturbed by Uber’s compensation and treatment of its drivers, to the point where I would stop using ride share apps because I’m sure conditions are not much better with Lyft, for example. However, when ride sharing apps launched, it was a godsend for me and many other outerborough and minority riders. Despite taking a toll on drivers, companies like Uber have leveled out many of the inequities and injustices suffered by riders.
My first neighborhood when I moved to the city was Washington Heights. My grad school was downtown and I’d go out with friends in that part of town, staying late and needing to cab it home since the subway wasn’t safe at that hour. I cannot count how many times yellow cab drivers heard “175th Street” and sped off. I had a yellow cab drivers lie on multiple occasions that they were “off-duty” or “taking a break”—after I was in the car. If I protested and stayed seated, they’d just idle until I gave up and got out. One time, when I finally got out the car, the driver drove 10 feet to a group of white boys, and let them in. They whooped like they won something—they driver chose them and not us, brown and black women, after all—and it was infuriating. Later in Bed-Stuy I’d spend 20-30 minutes trying to hail yellow or at the time newly-launched green cabs. I’d see so few, and so few unoccupied, that I’d give up and take out cash at an ATM at the corner so I could take a black cab, the only consistent options.
Ride-sharing changed all of this.
149
@Vanessa Moses. I wonder if you filmed your entire interaction with these racist drivers, and then you threatened to contact the taxi commission, you might get some results. I'm very sorry you had to experience this discrimination.
8
@Vanessa Moses - It's also an issue of security, as well as an increased cost women bear to avoid mass transit and to stay safe. Ride services allow women to bypass subways and buses, as well as avid standing alone on a street.
10
So Uber says in it's IPO offering that they don't expect to make a profit, they lose billions of dollars a year and has falsely claimed to its' drivers visions of making $75,000-$100,00/year. All while it's initial investors to the company reap millions of dollars from the IPO. The drivers are barely scraping by now and Uber plans to replace them with driver-less cars! It's bad enough they have already driven NY taxi drivers to suicide and clogged city streets with their cars. I hope this company goes bankrupt!
7
How about a national strike of Uber drivers the day before it's IPO?
3
I would not waste one minute working for any such company, am not interested in getting driven by some psycho nor being exposed by picking one up. There is a reason for regulated taxi services. I will continue to use taxi services when necessary.
7
You're in the minority....
1
I was going to yell at this guy, "Get a real job!", but then I realized he's 70 and living in California, where the young are worshipped, and this man will never get a job above fast food worker again due to his age. It's illegal for employers to discriminate in that way, but who is ever going to put an employer in jail for refusing to hire people over age 60?
Our nation can't even put Wells Fargo executives in jail. We can't even do that relatively easy legal work.
These gig jobs are all just a little bit of history repeating. It's worker exploitation, plain and simple, the same worker exploitation of the Industrial Revolution. It is nothing but anonymous suffering to feed the grinding wheels of capitalism.
How shall we stop this? What will ever change the minds of men from a mindset of cruelty and exploitation this time around?
12
@NotMyJob Thank you! You get it!
I wish , My fellow democrats will pay attention a bit to thse things , and talk about it, some of them talks but it is not a DEM's main focus.
Let's get bottom of it.
I live in Uber haven, which means New York City ....
I do not use Uber, I use either my car, Mainly public transport, occasionally yellow Taxis.
However one of my very young colleague in the work uses Uber. She told me in early morning hours, she can pay as less as 6 USD from Astoria to Midtown west 10th avenue 59 street.
( 4 miles)
Hmm. I do not remember my life in New York I paid a taxi 6 USD even in the shortest distance less than 10 USD ( 18 years in New York)
I own a car in New York, so I am very aware of what is the cost to maintain a car too.
As we know it. Uber doesn't have any skin in car maintenance, gas, also any type of working person retirement, health care etc.
As of 2019, a yellow taxi can go 4 miles distance around 17 USD ( no toll passing) Uber go 6 USD. which part of 101 economics says that, this is a true economic activity.
This is a Ponzi scheme at best. neither of the drive hail system show profit, but they gobbled up money from investors. their so called participant drivers are not in any type of working conditions. they remind me more 19th century Dicken's world horses used in horse carriage businesses; Abused and thrown away.
That is why I want Democratic legislators should awake their deep 20th-century sleep, and look at today issues. Dismiss GOP.
11
Wait, it is not only Uber that exploit the drivers. What about TLC and DMV in NY? To renew registration on our car we have to pay over $400. To renew a TLC license we have to pay $550. Plus $75 inspection fee.
Plus, here in NYC we have to get TLC insurance, which cost on average $5,000- 6,000/year.
Tickets. When you come home at night , you may circle an hour around neighboorhood looking for parking, and there is no gurantee you will find one. Many drivers park at "no parking zones". So you pay a few hundred dollars per month only on tickets.
Sometimes your car get towed by NYPD, another $180 +$60 to claim it back.
When you drive in NY, with all the potholes, and when riders constantly slam doors, your car turns into junk after a few years of driving.
Plus, you have to make oil change and maintenance every few months.
Full car wash at least once a week, so your riders dont complain
And the fun part is, when you get paid for a ride just a little over $5. It makes you really feel "proud" that you work for a multibilion dollar company.
Oh. The annual drug test, which can be done only through one company. Why only this compnay? Ask TLC. You have to call and wait on hold when somebody picks up the phone. One time i was on hold for over 30min. You got disconnected. Call and wait on hold again.
I guess when you are on a bottom of social ladder, everyone needs to milk you as much as they can.
5
I can't think of any worst job in the world than one which entails driving. This job in the gig economy sounds like people are beginning to find out there is no such thing as a trickle down economy in this new era of exploitation.
3
Dear Uber drivers,
Just say NO. There are better ways to make a living without getting fleeced.
1
I would rather stand on a corner with a sign that says “willing to pay for a ride to” wherever I need to go.
The chances of getting into a serial murderers car is equal to getting into a Uber car and the driver will get 100% of the money.
Cheers,
Nobody forces anyone to work for Uber. Same thing with fast food joints. These jobs aren't intended to raise a family on. Want higher pay? Get another job.
I drive for Uber part time. Happy with the flexibility and pay
4
Many riders don't seem to understand that for short trips, less than 5 miles, Uber and Lyft both pay as low as $2.40 to $3.50.
That's about 15-20 minutes of my time in a state that pays $12 for minimum wage, but for that 20 minutes, I get $2.40 from Lyft.
Now you wealthy folks can go ahead and buy stock in Lyft and Uber. That's your right. You can gamble how use choose to. It's a free country.
But if you become a stockholder and refuse to demand that these companies at least pay drivers minimum wage for their time in all 50 states, then, as a stockholder, you're merely exploiting the poor, the elderly, and the unskilled laborers who do this work.
If you become a stockholder and don't advocate for better profit-sharing to meet the needs of the poor who do this work, then you're just stealing food from poor people. That' s all. You're not a wise investor. You're just a thief.
I go the Food Banks sometimes for my food. Why? Because I am poor and I cannot take any time off, even when I am sick or injured.
Plus, as a driver on these crazy city streets full of speeding cars, I put my life at risk every time I'm on the road, just as all drivers do, but I am more likely to die in a car accident now because I'm a courier and ride share driver. I am out there far more hours than non-ride share drivers, so more hours = more potential risks.
This article fails to talk about all the risks taken on by couriers and drivers. This article lacks depth, to say the least.
5
I've read many of the posts, with many good points. So here's the bottom line: Drivers cannot make any money. I drove for 2 months and know. I didn't care about the exploitative parts. I did it to make some extra money. To all you accountants (which I'm not; I'm a word person), I am fine financially. Pocket $25-$35 an hour? More like $10. I didn't see any mention about taxes. Subtract them. More like $5 an hour. For me, it was fun, and a lot of work. Oh, tips? People don't, in general. I could tell you stories. In fact, I have. Read my book "I Can Tell You a Lot, I Can Listen a Lot." Send me a PM if that is possible, if you want to order one. I feel for Mr. Ashlock. He's an artist, making artist's wages with Uber. Yes, if you want to drive, drive for Uber and Lyft.
1
The rich get richer and the poor get even. Eventually.
Bob Dylan had it right in "Like a Rolling Stone",
"You never turned around to see the frowns on the jugglers and the clowns
When they all come down and did tricks for you"
4
My wife and I have taken Uber and Lyft over 1000 times. I can identify a Mongolian by his name and a Brazilian or Afghan by the language listed in their profile. I aways tip and try to talk to the driver. Almost every driver I've talked to says they like working for Uber and Lyft. Most live a lot closer than your example. Some live rent control. Most drive fuel efficient cars like Prius. Your example is extremely misleading.
My wife is disabled so Uber/Lyft is much better than me than searching for handicap spots. The price is okay. Uber/Lyft is losing $$$ so must they raise fares to better compensate drivers?
5
Uber may not be perfect but please note that this guy makes 40k on spare time! Hello?
What’s next? Baby sitter exploitation because they don’t get benefits?
As a progressive liberal I have no problem with this.
2
He is a low skill worker living in the Bay Area where he has to compete with 380,000 low skill illegals.
Of course he is going to have a tough time.
Imagine 380,000 illegal but equally skilled software coders dumped into Silicon Valley. Wages would be greatly depressed, obviously. There would be an uproar.
But only Trump has empathy. Dems don’t care about the working class folk anymore. Hence SF is a sanctuary city and why this guy is having a tough time.
5
@Jay Holder I think at age 70 he's not going to be doing farm work, cleaning hotels , landscaping etc.
Also the h2b visa already brings tech workers into the country. Americans have been laid off already due to those. Corporate greed hurts everyone.
Trump has no empathy. The wealthy got the tax cuts. The middle class are paying.
1
@Lim - No, but he drives Uber and could be a janitor or a cashier. And plenty of illegals drive Uber, are janitors and cashiers and constitute and illegal (over)supply of competition to him.
2
I’d like to know about the commission structure. What percentage of the trip fare does Uber actually keep? I thought it was 30% (which might be why one of the protesters in that Redondo Beach picture is holding a sign saying “restore 25%”). But the sign in the forefront of that picture seems to contradict that, saying if a rider pays $40, the driver only keeps $16 (making Uber’s commission 40%). Isn’t it the writer’s job to check that? It’s a factual allegation - if it’s true, say so; if it’s false, clarify that in the caption or somewhere in the article.
Maybe I missed it. Or maybe the NYT just wrote a whole article about how drivers are being paid too little without actually describing their pay structure.
2
How different is it from corporate America in general?
1
Is there any question why we are in such an angry dysfunctional country?
1
I have never ridden Uber or Lyft but having read this article, I will know to have a big tip ready for the driver. Sounds like the drivers need a big strike. Why do all Companies use the model of getting rich off the super exploitation of their workers - because they can until it is stopped.
2
Everyone is blaming Uber but really, let's take a look at this realistically. First of all, anyone in this country is FREE to do work they want to do... That means they can also NOT drive for uber. Secondly, I think people are not actually thinking about what they will earn at the end of all expenses. You are really running a mini business on your own where youhave income and expenses and you need to do your due diligence to determine if your product sells well enough adn at the right price. If not; GET OUT OF THE BUSINESS (stop driving for Uber). As long as people decide to work for uber , the business will be around and continue to fool people. BE SMART, GET OUT NOW. Your business isn't working for you. What it comes down to is; people have no idea to run a business, their own mini business. Don't blame Uber. You know how much they take. You know what a set of tires costs and how long they last. You know your car won't run forever and depreciates. Get smart. leave
106
The question became why people do take such jobs? Does it mean that they could not find anything better despite of the booming economy? If so, what is wrong with our society, that even in the booming years and with low unemployment could not supply everybody with decent job? Is uberization (gig economy) really good for society because it improves lives of many or just because it increase wealth of few?
23
@Ren, The National Labor Relations Act was passed in the 1930s to rein in exploitation of labor. Sure, everyone is "free to choose", but when companies have all the power to make the rules, it's not a fair choice. This country can learn to balance the needs of corporations vs. their stakeholders, including employees.
35
@yulia Why do people work in fast food restaurants? Why do people work at WalMart of other retail businesses? Why do people accept jobs that pay less than a living wage?
It's all because for many people, that's all that they can do. They may not have the degree necessary to secure that tech job. They may not have the experience necessary to qualify for the hot, new jobs. They could be older workers who employers don't want because their outdated knowledge. They may be in a situation where child care expenses negate the benefits of another position, and make flexibility a major consideration.
Bottom line is that the economy may be booming, but those numbers include jobs like this. If everyone worked 9-5 in fancy offices, the economy wouldn't be able to boast the numbers that you throw around.
44
The classic model of capitalism is breaking down. Used to be that the factory owner and employee lived in the same town and perhaps worshipped at the same church. With the coming of unions employees could demand a greater share of the value they produced.
Now, especially in the gig economy, it seems like a law of nature for the “winners” to keep every last penny and leave everyone else with the least possible.
7
I drive for Uber. What other job lets you be your own boss, choose the hours you want, and when you want to work? Is that not worth something? I quit my job a month ago and I could not be happier! My wife says I am more relaxed. In the article it said he did 25 trips and only made $200. I find that hard to believe as I complete about 12-15 trips and make $150 and I only drive for about 6-7 hours a day. The morning rush and the evening rush. I do not drive when the drunks are out. I drove for Uber, but made $4.80 less on a comparable ride with Lyft. So I no longer drive for Lyft.
I have used Uber a lot in different cities and also in Australia. Several time I have been picked up in high end cars when I ordered the basic service. For me it never made sense what I paid versus the cost. Rarely was I paying more than the equivalent of $50 per hour, which just does not cut it to operate a vehicle and pay a person.
When I ask the drivers why they drive for Uber the answer is always the same. They like it as a part time gig where they can work when they want. No one was doing it as full time job and expecting to pay for their car. It was more, I've got a car sitting there, I have some time, lets make some cash.
Several drivers told me they can clear $300 to $500 on a busy Friday night. A friends son drives Uber in Summit County on the weekend in ski season and claims he makes that. The drivers are paid at the end of the shift which is a big incentive.
In the end I use it because it works or me. It is not my job to lecture someone on what they decide to do to make money. It is a legal arrangement, I can chose to use it, they chose to do it. No one is forced to drive for Uber.
Many of the drivers I meet are well educated people and we have very good conversations. One was a local community college professor. A bunch are retired and their wives want them out of the house! One drove an X5 !
One thing is for sure. If there was no Uber I would drive myself or rent a car, maybe take public transit. My cab experiences were universally negative.
4
When Uber first came out I thought "gee, that's a great means for college students to make some cash and acclimate a new generation to using cabs!" I was naive. It didn't take me more than a year to realize that Uber/Lyft were a ripoff. I never did install the app for either company. My friends all use Uber. When I point out that it's a ripoff to the drivers and an end-run around the laws regulating cabs they carp about how bad cab drivers are. The real truth is they just want to save money and enjoy the instant convenience. They vote Democratic but act like Republicans.
I still take cabs. I have near dispatch numbers in my phone contacts. Or I walk. If I must, I drive.
13
@Flaminia If all the numbers weren't wrong this would be a decent article. BTW, I'm a driver and I understand that driving a car isn't the kind of thing that will make somebody rich.
4
@Flaminia
What a biased and curious assertion by Flaminia ? A service that has provided needed money to millions of drivers and transportation to millions of riders is a " ripoff " .
@Flaminia
The service is a big win for those needing a ride. Much more responsive and convenient than hailing a cab. So it is no surprise that your "friends" like it and use it. They see it as essentially meaning they don't really need a vehicle unless they commute long distances.
For the drivers... it actually requires thoughtful analysis as to what they want out of the service, and what it will cost them in expenses to participate. For the part timer who only does it on weekends to generate some additional income it may very well work for them. For someone who sees it as a pathway to be self-employed and prosper..... I encourage them to do more analysis, and let's be frank.. most people do not sit down and do the analysis.
The ride sharing companies are struggling to make a profitable business model. So far, they cannot... because they are trying to cannibalize each others business with discounts to customers and incentives to drivers. I don't see how they turn a profit in the near to mid term of their life... and self driving cars certainly are not going to do it because that is a huge expense to carry... particularly since they must have sufficient cars for peak demand and that means under utilized vehicles.
Personally, I don't admire ride sharing services and rarely ever use them. But I am not foolish enough to think that my perspective represents a majority viewpoint in any way.
3
Driving for Uber/Lyft is a scam for people who don't realize how much it actually costs to own and operate a private vehicle. I'll be cheering when these companies either tank or are forced to change their policies substantially.
13
@Alexandra
Anyone that does not sit down and figure out the cost benefit analysis of being a driver, is actually scamming themselves.
The ride sharing services are scamming drivers with their complex and fluid incentive plans... but again.. drivers need to figure out if any given "carrot" is worth the time and cost to chase.
3
I have said this before and it bears repeating.
Uber is the lowest form of contract working ever devised by human to exploit other human.
And, for that reason, I will never use the service.
If the drivers, who are doing all the work, got 80% of the fare, would be a different story. Uber should only be entitled to tips and nothing more.
12
@Truth Is True.
It is by no means the lowest form of contract work.
The lowest form of contract work is actually in agriculture where workers are paid by the bushel or basket or poundage picked.
As for the Ubers of the world.... if they don't take a commission on each ride.. they go out of business quickly and so do all the drivers.
There is merit in discussion about how drivers are treated and compensated, but to insist the Ubers of the world deserve nothing for providing the logisitcs that quickly and easily puts riders and drivers together is so misplaced. The cab companies however, would love your idea because it will shutter all the ride sharing services.
1
It’s like working for mc Donald’s on wheels, you can’t expect a career out of job that is a side gig at most
2
@Chuck
Dear Chuck. I have never said that Uber should be out of business. I am saying that Uber is a throw back to an age before Unions existed: Workers have no rights and all the responsibilities.
Many men and women died fighting for the right to unionize and a fair living wage.
I am saying that Uber has set the clock back at the expense of workers. Not only do workers have to buy their own equipment to do their work, but they are also responsible for maintaining their vehicles at their own expense, and then turn over all the profits to Uber for the privilege of a job that you paid for.
Whether Uber likes it or not, every Uber driver is paying Uber, by my guesstimation, about $50,000 for the job. It is money that goes straight into Uber pockets.
Such a deal. Why didn't I think of that?
Uber drivers have zero benefits and 100% of the responsibility, with none of the profit motive of traditional Capitalistic models. In a traditional model, Uber would own all the vehicles and then hire men and women to drive them.
The most relevant question to ask is why are men and women so desperate for a job that they are willing to subject themselves to working conditions that amount to slavery.
2
Interesting that the featured driver describes himself as a an artist and yet his income shows no evidence of sales due to his described profession. Who does he blame for not selling any of his art?
6
Why we don't talk about the restaurant industry? I used to work as a waitress for many years and didn't get as much as these Ubers drivers are making. This has nothing to do with Uber. Its a low skill job and that's what capitalism rewards workers with. The solution is to think of government programs that can help the most vulnerable and poor. It's insane to think that a corporation should be providing health care ...why not our government? Industries with low paying wage will always exist. We should fight in the government for protection by taxing the wealthy.
10
@Jenna I respect that you worked as a waitress. The job isn't easy.
That said, you didn't have to purchase gas out of your own pockets to maintain your job. (Gas in many west coast cities is already above $3.25 /gal)
Did you have to purchase a near new vehicle to qualify to work? Drivers can pay several hundred dollars per month just to have a car to drive, and if you lease one from Uber or Lyft, it's not uncommon for drivers to have to pay $250 or more PER WEEK just to do their job.
You didn't have to pay increased insurance costs to do your job. That can often cost several hundred dollars a month.
You didn't absorb thousands of dollars worth of depreciation of your personal property doing your job, or have drunks destroying your personal property. All of that was the restaurant owners expense.
If you got sick, you had sick days to fall back on. Drivers go without any income if they're sick, injured, etc.
You got paid AND received tips 90% of the time for carrying meals 30 feet from the kitchen to a table. Drivers drive through rush hour traffic at their own expense to pick someone up, then transport people across town is that same infuruating traffic, paying for gas, and only get tipped a buck or two about TEN PERCENT of the time.
3
@Kermit D. Frog
We didn't have sick days either...if you call out and can't work, no money for you.
I don't use Uber and I'm sure most drivers would be shocked to see their income from Uber after expenses. The absolutely worst part about these services, though, is how the drivers will stop right in the middle of a busy thoroughfare to pick up a rider - when just 100 feet ahead, there is 50 feet of empty curb. Riders need to hail from places where their driver does not block the travel lane. I see traffic jams caused by riders being picked up, and it is unacceptable. Uber needs to train drivers to pick up in areas that do not impede traffic.
3
“That was Uber’s big innovation — make the drivers absorb the overhead.”
Mr. Ashlock is right, but that's only the half of it. As soon as autonomous cars become legal, Uber and Lyft will dump their entire fleet of humans. That is the plan. Right now the drivers build the company for the benefit of the investors, and once the tipping point is reached, those drivers will be flushed out. Believe it.
14
@David Law
Not so sure about the claim that the ride sharing services will simply replace drivers with autonomous vehicles.
1) that requires the ride sharing service to now carry all the overhead of acquiring and maintaining the vehicles. And the fact is... these services run a large operating deficit as it is.. with no real capital investment. They will drown in debt if they go this route.
2) self driving vehicles serving commuters will be the LAST segment of the industry to gain approval for unrestricted operations.... due to the severe concerns over public safety (not that ride share drivers are not also a public safety concern.... but it is well understood). In other words... this dream is at least a decade a way from unrestricted commercial use.
1
@Chuck
Agreed, and all good points. But as this is a future and unknown world, and the whole rideshare economy is new and creating its own rules, I feel the management and investors of Lyft and Uber are targeting this direction. Whether its realistic or not, their focus is being a technology company, not a human services company.
@David Law
If the Uber driver in the article was more savvy he would forget about the gas cost and take the $0.58 cents per mile that the IRS gives you. With the 31,000 miles he drives that would mean that his taxable income would drop by almost $18,000. Also driving 50 miles to pick up riders does not make sense.
3
Drivers are not the future of the company. Autonomous vehicles are, and they're closer to being realized than people want to believe.The company has no interest in raising driver percentages right before the roll out a driverless fleet. It's a gig, not a permanent full time job.
7
@Andrew
Self driving vehicles that carry passengers ARE NOT closer then people realize. They are actually farther away then you realize.
Drivers, using level 3 automation vehicles are at least 7 years away right now. Level 4+ is required for a ridesharing company to replace the drivers completely.
What you will see is more and more drivers working for ridesharing companies, who do drive Level 2 and later level 3 self driving vehicles.
Given no ride sharing company can make a profit right now, at all, there is simply no way for them to step up capital investment and expenses to deal with what is no off-loaded to drivers ---> total cost of vehicle operations, including fuel.
@Andrew
Uber takes an inordinate share of the passenger's cost while the driver supports the full operating cost. If Uber is now losing money with that formula, how on earth can they make money when they have to pony up to buy a vehicle, maintain it and run it.
3
Andrew, sure they are. I can imagine a future with autonomous cars with flat tires and vandalized sensors blocking the roads, won’t that be wonderful? I have never heard of any planning to repair malfunctioning autonomous cars. When something goes haywire these vehicles will stop dead in their tracks. Won’t that be great?
3
I am a volunteer tax preparer for VITA. I can tell this story over and over. I have been so shocked this year at how many Uber and Lyft drivers come in who are barely getting by that I started keeping a record of how much gig drivers are making per ride. It averages less than $3. I prepared a return yesterday for a guy who drove for Uber for two months, and after accounting for driving expenses - he lost money! His AGI was actually reduced by having driven for Uber. I have tried to tell friends and co-workers about this, but I get vehement push-back. People tell me, "Oh, no, I heard that Uber drivers make A LOT!" Sorry, but no.
65
@Erin
If you help people with taxes use the $0.58 cents per mile you get. It is much more than gas costs. I drove about 5200 miles in the past month for Uber and made about $3,100. The 5400 miles x $0.58 = $3016 and that means $84 on the schedule C. But since I drive a plug-in hybrid and spent maybe $225 on gas. So the real income is $2875!
2
Well, I feel the consumer's dilemma, to call or not to call the Uber? I don't drink and volunteer as designated driver because I hate to think I am exploiting a person, but once in San Diego I rode in a regular Taxi and should've been alarmed at the odor when getting into the cab, the driver swerved all over the place at one point. So no cabby for me either.
On another note, Mr. Ashlock looks very good for almost 71, what's his secret?
4
An acquaintance who tried driving for the company a few years ago clued me into to how this scam works - low wages for the drivers, oppressive work conditions, forced to bear all the overhead of car, insurance etc. Since then I have used Uber on a number of occasions and my rule is to over-tip the driver, who are almost always courteous and friendly. It' s the least I can do.
16
@David DiRoma the tipping is a great idea. I feel really bad just like Walmart employees, only Uber drivers face more risk i.e. accidents or being harmed by customer.
3
I use uber & lyft several times a week and in most cases tip the driver $1 or $2 for short rides.
I’m surprised that the subject of this story only made $11 in tips on 25 rides. That seems extremely low.
Even when i take a car service or yellow cab i usually tip as do most other people. I’m not saying the driver is lying, it just seems extraordinarily low for someone that is so highly rated.
1
Suppose we had universal income. This man receives a check every month equivalent to what he currently earns working full time for Uber.
Logically, he would stop working for Uber, because the job is boring, and begin focusing on art, because it brings him pleasure.
Uber, in turn, loses drivers, and as a result, is no longer a profitable business. After all, why would anyone sit in a car for 6 hours a day if their life didn't depend on it?
America, in turn, loses a successful business and potentially deters other successful businesses, who now must compete with Uncle Sam for workers time.
Eventually, Uncle Sam does not have money to doll out in the form of universal income. Remember, if Uber (and other businesses) cannot generate cash who is going to pay the taxes to Uncle Sam?
I feel bad for this man, but his problems are indeed his own. If his art was better quality it would sell. If he had other skills besides driving, he could compete in the market for higher wages. Without Uber he would, apparently, have nothing.
4
@Johnny I am pretty sure many of the universal recipients would continue their entrepreneurship but with less burden, because the income is great seed money for a one person business.
4
@Johnny
Uber is not profitable and forecasts no profits for a long time.
It survives off the largess of venture capitalists who shovel money into it year after year.
The small businesses it destroyed were profitable by necessity.
With the pending IPO those VC's will reap some windfall profits but will continue to subsidize a business that looses money.
6
@Johnny
He and his wife get social security plus the $40,000 he gets from Uber. So what is the problem?
1
Don’t forget fedex does the same thing, those truck drivers are contractors in name only. When Airborne was still in business the expected you to buy a truck, paint “Airborne” on it and could dismiss you just because they felt like it leaving you with a truck to pay for.
5
I'm a part-time employee at one of the best-known Test-Prep companies; with them over 4 years. Like some Uber/Lyft drivers, I try to make my living from teaching SAT/ACT & high-school entrance exams by working as much as I can. The company has had a hard rule the last two years that I should not, unless I receive prior approval, exceed 40 hours per week between teaching/prepping/student contact.
Though I've asked to become full-time, and have applied for several full-time positions, this hasn't happened. Perhaps my advanced age has something to do with that, but there's always some qualification I'm missing despite a varied work experience before I started teaching and my ability to learn new things. After all, I relearned Algebra/Geometry/Trig after being away from them for over 20 years and can now handle any question that comes my way from students! Some new computer software to use - piece of cake in comparison!
As opposed to Uber drivers, I'm considered an employee, so, thanks to the Affordable Care Act, am now covered by the company's health care plan. I work 7 days/week and track hours worked to keep them above the 1560 hours per year that keeps me qualified. Before ACA and living in NYC meant a huge chunk of my income went to health insurance.
I've often been asked to return to schools to teach, and have received excellent reviews, but a bonus at the end of year, or anytime, for a job well-done? Not once.
Gig economy? Perhaps great for coders, not for grunts.
18
“I am rather at Uber’s mercy”
No. If you have the freedom to drive, you have the freedom to quit.
6
@Charles - And do what, exactly? He's in his 70s, has a sick wife to care for, and lives in a rural California town. Who is going to hire him?
1
@Lindsay K "And do what exactly?" Perhaps what he was doing before Uber came along.
2
No Uber Lyft for me, they exploit their workers and rely on how hard it is to figure out if you are making money on something that involves a lot of driving. Give me a cab every time. These companies will probably put a camera in the car to make sure the driver gets no tips.
11
An article about the economics of being an Uber driver, by a math-literate guy who tried it out. http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2017/11/22/mr-money-mustache-uber-driver/
This should be required reading for anyone who’s thinking of trying it.
2
As a aviation contractor I am part of the gig economy. The contract house charges the company at least twice what I’m paid. The amazing thing is the companies I work for expect loyalty while paying me absolutely no benefits and can dismiss me at will.
I turned the tables while in Australia working with a air tanker firefighting company. When I saw illegal maintenance practices taking place on a DC-10 aircraft I was no longer willing to jeopardize my FAA credentials and demanded a ticket back to the states. I gave them 1 hour to agree to stop doing illegal things and ground the aircraft until the proper parts could be installed. They refused, I left and they were left in a bind as it is quite difficult to get the permissions to bring a American to Australia for employment.
It was too bad cause after the contract expired I had planned to tour Australia but principles are more important.
14
I don't use Uber or Lyft often. But when I do, I always tip generously. To help the drivers, the ride sharing services should allow users to add a 10, 15, or 20 percent when they sign up for the service, and allow them to "opt" out after the ride if they are unhappy with the experience. Doing so would increase drivers' wages substantially.
5
Driving for Uber is a low-skilled, low-wage job. It doesn’t promise much, and it doesn’t deliver much.
Supply and demand drive earnings, to some extent. The Bay Area has a surplus of drivers within an hour’s drive of SF. Literally anyone, almost, can drive.
I was in the Phoenix area recently, where there’s a driver shortage, and one driver told me Uber sent his kid to college if the father would agree to drive the night shift.
The driver in this story travels 50-60 miles to work each day. That’s 25-30k miles/year in travel, explaining his disappointing net earnings. Many of the miles on his car are from his commute, not his Uber driving.
As callous as it admittedly sounds, I wonder if this driver wouldn’t be better off looking for a job closer to his home. The current US unemployment rate is below 4%, and the Bay Area rate is closer to 2%.
Even older workers are getting a good look as companies struggle to find people.
13
@MR Yup. I know the area, and the commute he does hardly makes sense. The traffic to SF in the afternoon is still heavy, and he ends up in SF in the middle of the commute traffic, which is insanely heavy. After 9 PM, I doubt that he gets many customers. He'd be far better off traveling much earlier and leaving much earlier. He would also be far better off trying to find something local.
5
What is the model that will make them profitable?
@J. Rockford
They are now exploiting the drivers to keep the prices low and destroying the competition at the same time. This is why they still haven't made a profit.
When they finally have the self driving cars perfected, they can let all those drivers go and the company will have killed the competition by that time. They will be able to make a profit without paying the drivers then
2
Welcome to capitalism. The only thing that surprises me about the gig economy is that they’ve done such a good job at marketing it to workers. Actually, that’s the second most surprising...the first is how many workers are at least pretending to love it!
10
I have an idea for all of us liberals who use Uber or Lyft: Tip the driver well and in cash. Let's put our money where our mouth is. I was most saddened that the subject of the story received $200 in fares and $11 in tips in SF. Everybody likes to complain about corporate villanelle but I find a lot of people with money don't really engage in the most direct support availed to hard working folks: tip big in cash!
14
Since when is 40k a year (adjusted gross no less) bad or not enough? Ever since we have been drubbed by inflation. The problem is NOT uber, it is inflation. I make 46k a year... and I live in the most expensive city in America!
3
Uber is a blight on cities, adding exponentially to traffic and pollution, as a blight on the labor market and the ability of "the little people" drivers to make a decent living.
And of course NO job security or benefits!
I really wish the media would stop using the term "gig economy" to describe this state of affairs. This makes this exploitation of workers sound like some cutesy trend du jour, not the vicious exploitative return to the pre-labor movement past!
A "gig" is a semi-casual, music engagement, NOT a way of life for working people driving cars and trying to make a living wage!
32
[[NYer
Uber is a blight on cities, adding exponentially to traffic and pollution, as a blight on the labor market and the ability of "the little people" drivers to make a decent living. And of course NO job security or benefits!]]
So, quit.
2
The gig economy has always been presented as something it is not, the road to personal freedom while earning an income to sustain one's material needs. It is in reality just another step in enriching the few while undercutting the rights and dignity of those who must work for a living.
26
"The Federal Trade Commission found the claims to be false advertising, and the company agreed to a $20 million settlement."
Did any Uber drivers get any of that money?
15
@The Poet McTeagle
If it was a class-action suit, then the lawyers got 99.5% of that $20 million. Guaranteed.
1
@The Poet McTeagle
20 Million divided 3 million, equal 6.3 dollar.
enjoy your gas station coffee and donut.
that is not the problem I suppose.
1
I'm a limousine driver servicing airport trips. I get the use of a clean, well-maintained vehicle - a Lincoln or Chrysler 300 - and a daily log of runs, usually 10 or so.
The hours and days are flexible, and I'm guaranteed a set amount from both the company and the client per trip, and well-tipped on top of that.
Why anyone would subject themselves to the abuses of working for Uber is beyond me.
45
@OldChef
The idea is what you are referring , solidarity and paying attention other than just making earning.
If anyone living in western world thinking only work for just earning living , instead of what we salaried people achieved in 20th century , will repeat 19th century again.
That is what Uber is , 19th century carried over 21st century with the help of gig tech economy.
9
Talking to many Uber and Lyft drivers, has often surprised me. While some of them drive part time, for many it is a full time job. Most of them claim to like the job for the flexibility it gives them and the fact that they have no human directly supervising them. Many quit other jobs to work for Uber/Lyft. The fact that the economics don’t work for them doesn’t seem to register. It maybe because they don’t realize or worry about taxes till the end of the year. Only a few realize that they are in a bad position - some can’t get out because they bought a new car for this purpose and now have loan payments to make.
11
Most of the Uber drivers I have met are new to Uber with less than a year often less than six months. It’s seems the longer they drive the less favorable they are to Uber. If this company is exploiting their drivers, then what are we doing who use Uber?
9
@A. Raymond
Your sampling of drivers is faulty. It's not a full-time job for "many" Uber/Lyft drivers. It's a part-time job for most -- 80 percent for Uber drivers. 90 percent for Lyft drivers. And, despite what the media experts and many smug commenters here believe is "true" about how awful it is to be "exploited" by Uber/Lyft, North America's nearly 1 million Uber drivers are not morons who don't realize they are losing money. Some drivers quit right away. But any Uber/Lyft driver who can't figure out how to make $300 or $400 a week working 15 hours a week in a city like Pittsburgh should try a different part-time job.
1
As a frequent visitor to Las Vegas for trade shows and conventions, I've observed how much the cost of taxi rides has increased in 25 years. I started using Lyft this past January during the Consumer Electronics Show and found the drivers to be very pleasant to work with. The cost savings over a cab ride is substantial and I make sure the drivers get good tips.
The cost of living in the Las Vegas area is much lower than San Francisco, Los Angeles, and New York. Consequently, Lyft drivers are already residing close to their place of work, so there's no long round trip like the driver in this article must deal with. And there are plenty of passengers looking for rides.
One of my drivers was a young single woman with a daughter in grade school. This driver worked as a waitress at one of the casinos and said she could make $200 to $300 extra a week during conventions. She seemed to enjoy the job and the extra cash would go a long way to cover her living expenses.
There are several flaws to be sure with ride sharing services, but in a tourist and convention destination like Vegas, the model may work well for driverx.
6
We're supposed to believe that the wealthy among us got where they are by dreaming up brilliant innovations and putting their own money at risk. That we all benefit from the resulting flow of prosperity. I don't see that here.
Uber is essentially a veneer of tech that mostly duplicates what we already had, using a phone to call a cab. No great vision there. But they added a business model based on illegality - refusing to comply with licensing laws while their competitors are still, to this day, required to comply. Then they pushed off most of their capital costs onto their workers - I mean, "contractors" - and disclaimed any liability for their business operations.
With all these dubious advantages, they're still hemorrhaging money. Yet the original owners still deserve to be billionaires? The original CEO is forced out due to unacceptable conduct running a company that has never made a profit, and he still walks away with $1.4B? THIS is what's wrong with our economy today.
112
I consider uber and similar apps to be the biggest scam in economic history. All they do is connect people who need a service with other people who want to provide the service, using a platform (mobile phones, the internet, etc) that they did not build. Basically, raking in billions by doing nothing other than trying to figure out how to rake in more billions.
This is like the makers of the yellow pages a few decades ago making billions by connecting seekers of phone numbers with the numbers they like to call, while someone does the calling and pays of the call.
Would you have agreed to pay several dollars each time you open the yellow pages to find a number?
Insane.
But, hey, if people want to be ripped off, both customers and drivers, who can do something about that?
Don't these drivers understand that they volunteered to be slaves to someone who does nothing but count the money they made?
I have never used uber and do not plan to.
14
@reader
Perhaps you should use it at least once so you can see how it differs from using the yellow pages to find the number for a cab. And perhaps you should also see how it differs from a driver's perspective to use the yellow pages to market their own service compared to the platform which does all the marketing for them.
1
@reader
Actually, other than Dicken's world abused horses like Uber-Lyft driver working conditions.
One of the harm in society is: hailing services is dumping more individual cars in to the street and making much worse to Traffic chaos such as in NYC.
Plus, it is taking the incentives and motivation from State governments to invest on public transport. MTA already reporting decrement in their ridership.
But I congratulate our NY governor , Mr. Cuomo's congestion pricing. It is a good step to show resistance to Uber and Lyft etc. ilk to abuse our infrastructure without paying their fair share.
Mr. MacGyver from Denver is adulating the evil which has no benefit for working people ( drivers) but taking advantage of temporary cheapness of transportation. No it is not cheap , this is very clear that an exploitation of the transitory situation. which eventually drivers drop out.
Old system become a monopole, and Uber and Lyft literally took from there and reduced entire sector voluntary slavery.
5
Ever wonder why theses companies are so successful?
All of these drivers buy/lease new cars, so...who benefits from that? The car companies....it’s a touch point, one of many, that are ultimately unsustainable mostly due to the fact that in the long run when the economy falters, the first thing folks will cut back on, are luxuries...ie; car service...then the loans will default and the car companies will start to lay off...you can see the domino effect easily...wait, winter is coming.
5
How is he only making eleven dollars in tips on 25 rides? Is he arguing with every rider? The solution here is that we riders tip appropriately.
11
@Sherrod Shiveley As a driver, I can tell you that the propensity to tip is directly proportional to age and home ownership. Unfortunately that means that young people living in cities tip the least, but comprise the majority of the rides.
2
@Sherrod Shiveley Many people find tipping to be awkward and inconvenient. Charge what you want to earn and don't put the onus on the rider to perform an impromptu service evaluation when we're stressed and in a hurry to get somewhere then have to slip dollar bills in your proverbial bikini.
@Sherrod Shiveley "is he arguing with every rider?" That's one broad assumption based on zero facts.
1
There is, of course, a simple way to fix this: Tip drivers. The app allows for it. There's no excuse not to, really.
Do in cyberspace what you would do in real life.
13
@August West
If we wanted to be inconvenienced with performing an impromptu service evaluation and waste time tipping when we're stressed and in a rush, we'd call a taxi cab. Tipping seems to be as American as for-profit health insurance and like that, it doesn't make sense.
5
If we fight the “tipping system” by avoiding companies that refuse to pay livable wages, that’s fair. But if we use companies that exploit workers and then refuse to tip, that’s unfair.
7
40k a year is decent pay for a taxi driver. Which is what Uber drivers are. Stop trying to paint them as more important than they actually are.
8
1) Not in the Bay Area
2) They aren’t getting any benefits, so really it’s more comparable to $30K
11
@Anna
It's 40K AGI so he actually made more than that. Again, being a taxi driver isn't a career that is going to be enjoyable or profitable, literally almost anyone can do it so the pay reflects that. I'm not defending Uber, their business model is horrible but hey the US government seems to be ok with it for some reason even though the company loses 2 billion dollars a year doing it.
2
40K would be ok, if it was a net salary, but it isn't. If you deduct the underlying costs, there might be 20K left.
2
Uber and Airbnb are the probably unlikeliest-to-have-been-licensed businesses ever. One is a transportation business with no vehicles owned and the other a lodging with no rooms of its own. If a business is not profitable nor making its workers happy and is still infused with lots of crafty investments and gets the IPO, it would be an alarm.
4
And yet there appears to be no shortage of people willing to be slaves such as Mr. Ashlock. I remember years ago owning a deli and customers often saying to me how nice it must be to be your own boss. I would just smile to myself thinking about the 7 day a week 90+ hour workload and constantly worrying whether my part time help was going to show up on time if at all. When I was sick I came to work and there was no vacation time or benefits. Selling that deli (at a loss) was the happiest moment of my life. I eventually got a job working for a large corporation that paid a decent wage and offered good benefits. I was no longer my own boss and loving every minute of it.
21
@Rossano
When you own a small business every customer is your boss.
2
@Rossano
this post is a good example of someone expressing their personal thing , but totally mischaracterizing Uber Drivers who are the opposite of slaves .
1
From Uber's filing with the SEC:
"We have incurred significant losses....and we may not achieve profitability."
No kidding? Well, page 233 of the filing tells some of the story. Executive Compensation in 2018:
CEO $45.3 Million (I'd be happy with the .3, myself)
CFO $28 Million
COO $47. Million
CTO $12.7 Million
HR $9.7 Million
173
@Laurie
Obviously, this is a kind of pyramid scheme that enriches a few at the cost of many.
18
@Laurie. Wow! I have no idea how a company losing 10 figures a year can pay out money like that to top employees. Pretty much tells you all you need to know.
18
@Laurie This should be a Times Pick. Readers need to be informed of this.
12
Is it in any way surprising that the big bucks capitalists are fattening on vast wealth-taking while the workers feeding them get crumbs, if that?
21
I moved to NYC in the dirty, crime-ridden 1970's. In all the intervening years of late work shifts, late partying, medical scares, etc., etc., I can honestly say that neither my life nor my livelihood was ever at serious risk for lack of a taxi.
Our 'need it now, want it cheap' culture, fostered by Uber and its ilk, has brought us here. We are already paying the social cost in poverty wages for their drivers, traffic congestion, air pollution, even suicides. And sure as the sun will rise, once these companies dominate the industry, their prices will rise. Our best defense, as other commenters have noted, is to vote with our wallets and our feet.
I was recently waiting for the bus with with a woman some 40 years my junior. The bus was delayed. We were going about the same distance.
"Guess I'll walk," I said.
"I'm calling an Uber," she said.
'Nuff said.
49
@CML
Excellent.
These so called cheap riding in face of no profit at all , is just not adding up.
Uber-Lyft economy is just luring the investors for a dreamy profit future ( not IPO dream).
When they knock out all their rival transportation, starting to jack up prices steadily.
1
Ever thought that maybe she wasn’t able to walk that distance?
I spent two years with a back injury that was completely invisible. From the outside I looked fit and capable; inside, every moment was painful.
Your hyperbole is taken, but just because someone is young doesn’t mean they’re lazy.
5
So he worked a 9 hour day, made $25/hr, and has the freedom to work whenever he wants. (or doesn't). But, he had to pay for his own gas and didn't get paid for his time commuting to work. Seems like a pretty good (and realistic) job.
11
@maxwezz After gas he made $20/hr from which he has to pay for maintenance,depreciation,insurance on his car. Around 16% for SS/Medicare. Doesn't leave much for the necessities of life and retirement savings.
10
Except that he doesn't park his car and go into an office building to work. His car is in continuous use and wearing out. Consider that the IRS mileage allowance rate is about 58 cents a mile. If he drives 100 miles on a shift, plus another 100 miles round-trip from home,that's $116 he never sees. It could go a long way to offsetting the costs of running, maintaining, and ultimately replacing his car.
4
He also has to pay state taxes, healthcare (and yes, while he likely has Medicare there is a premium each month which is currently $136 plus whatever Medicare doesn’t pay,) plus wear and tear on his car besides gas (tires, oil, cleaning regularly, brakes,gaskets, filters, etc which he has to do far more often than someone just driving to work).
12
Do some of the drivers bring on themselves, Most that I have talk to have no clue, about writing off their business expense while driving.
what would happen if they drivers where made employee? Most driver drive for both services if force to choose both would lose half their drivers
4
Slice it, dice it, explain it, parse it, whatever, Uber is an unrepentant, unregulated, emphasize unregulated evil.
What is descried is the equivalent of tenant farming -- it is serfdom.
This is what the market values? Will value it is reported at $100 billon? Entrapping thousands and thousands of people in serfdom in the 21st Century has a value of $100 billion?
It is not the ride share income that gives Uber value, it is that it has found a way to obtain that by extorting its victims, abusing their property -- the vehicles they drive -- and locking the drivers into serfdom. Uber's investors and executives are plantation owners riding the backs of their serfs.
Part of the public offering should have been, should yet be required to be by the public exchange, an award of stock to anyone and everyone who ever drove for Uber factored by length of time they have -- whether one day or years. Computers can figure that out pretty quickly if told to do so.
What Uber does, how it uses people should be illegal. Either employ people or make fair deals with them, starting with full reimbursement for the use and depreciation of their vehicles and fair percentage payment of maintenance and upkeep of the vehicles.
Who can do that, order it, require it by law? Congress could, Uber operates in interstate commerce. The states certainly can. They need to and if it eats up some billions of Uber's market value, so be it.
39
@Carl Zeitz Agree. Long haul truckers are often in a similar situation. They buy their rig from the company, maintain it and basically never get out of debt. The labor movement in the early 20th century attempted to counter the exploitation of workers with unions but that has been largely destroyed by right to work laws pushed by republican administrations in most states. The only solution I can see for drivers is to somehow form collective bargaining and with the structure these companies have created I don't see that happening.
8
The "gig economy" is a beggars economy. Disruptive technologies like Uber and Lyft are bright and shinny on the outside but pull back the covers and find people living month-to-month unable to save anything for the future let alone a financially devastating health crisis.
Uber's expected public offering of $100 billion is a shining example of capitalism: A few big winners and crumbs for rest.
29
@J Milovich "Disruptive technology?" It's a taxi company where you punch a computer screen instead of make a phone call.
2
There's this diner scene in the movie "Taxi Driver" where Robert De Niro's character, Travis, is hanging out with a group of other cabbies. That's the life of a cab driver. It's not glamorous. What Uber and Lyft have done is convinced nearly everyone with a car that they can be a cab driver. They can't. It has to be in their blood. And real cab drivers don't drive for Uber and Lyft.
19
There are many negative points to argue against Uber/Lyft and their business model, but how "real" the drivers are is not one of them. As a passenger I'm not looking for an "authentic" cab experience (whatever that means - worn-out/smelly vehicle? Plastic dividers between me and the driver?) - I just want to get to a destination at the lowest cost available.
5
@Chris Rockett
You missed my point. The Times article gives the driver's perspective. The point I was making is that being a cab driver was a gritty job as portrayed in the movie "Taxi Driver." But, Uber came along and undercut the taxi companies while convincing thousands of ordinary people that they could make good money in this business. The Uber drivers are now coming to realize that the math doesn't work.
@Mark
Ah yes, on that point I agree. I thought you were pushing some kind of nostalgic aspect of cabbie life in the fabled "good old days". Driving Uber & Lyft might be good for some retired people to make some beer money, but not for someone trying to make a living or secure a future.
2
Economically, Uber is subsidizing the income of the drivers with its losses. This is an investment in the future of ride services by driverless cars. By no longer having to pay the cost of drivers, Uber should then be profitable.
Driverless vehicles are expected to put millions of people out of work, including Uber drivers and eventually truck drivers. Accident rates should plummet, which will mean less employment in auto body shops, fewer insurance adjusters and much less income for personal injury attorneys.
The increasing pace of technological change is likely to displace workers at an ever faster rate, which will have a profound effect on society.
13
@Fred Dorbsky There will never be a day where a 5000 pound minivan drives down a residential street with nobody inside of it. Self driving cars can algorithmically solve about 90% of the unexpected situations they might encounter, but they will never solve the final 10%. Whatever quantum level, fast processing that our brains do to give us that "spidy sense that a kids is about to run out in front of the car" will never be implemented in silicon. If replacing drivers is essential to supporting Uber's valuation, then that stock is worthless. Will. Never. Happen.
3
I think you have it backwards. Uber is being subsidized, heavily, by their drivers who are absorbing the overhead of operating and insuring the vehicles.
5
There is no future as an Uber driver. Only a few will be left when driver-less technology enters the market.
5
It sounds to me as if Mr. Ashlock is doing fine, comrade.
Thanks to the way the tax code is structured, he's able to realize quite a tax savings via depreciation of his car. He sets his own hours. He lives in a beautiful part of this country. And he's getting by. Woulda loved to hear more about that student loan payment he's making at age 71. I'm guessing whatever schooling he received did not result in him becoming a millionaire, which is surely someone else's fault.
Just a few tweaks and we'll be fine. Forgive his student loan debt and double his pay for a job he's already willing to do at the existing rate of reimbursement. That'll make him happier, I'm sure, even if it would dramatically increase fares when the company already is bleeding money. Meanwhile, slash the pay/returns of venture capitalists and company officers who put their own money at risk to create Uber--let's make 'em do it for what Mr. Ashlock is getting paid. That'll solve everything, comrade. Of course it will.
11
You can only depreciate a car for 5 years, and he’s been driving since 2012. There is no mention of a new car. And you can use mileage or actual cost to use the car (gas, oil, repairs) plus depreciation. Once you choose on formula you have to use that formula on that car always.
3
@August West Some people can rationalize anything.
1
Computers have enabled businesses to maximize assets and minimize liabilities.
Only a labor union can solve this problem. Drivers should organize, just our fathers and grandfathers did in another age.
This is nothing less than the rank exploitation of labor.
7
Uber also trashed the huge investments in NYC taxi medallions, many of which were bought by immigrants chasing the American dream. There have been suicides attributed to the medallion value collapse. While the "yellow cab" system was far from perfect the drivers generally made a decent living. New Yorkers who use Uber are not innocent adopters of this new technology.
17
What has to be understood when driving for UBER is that the drivers are not employees but independent contractors. Which means that drivers can work whenever they want, where they want and how long they want. A driver is his own boss. You are not going to get rich driving for UBER but as a "small" businessman/woman you can develop strategies and approaches to the job in order to maximize your revenue and minimize your expenses. I would hope that UBER , if it is not already doing so, would try and make drivers true partners by offering them the opportunity to buy stock in the company while also inculcating and continuing to develop the art of customer service.
3
Where would Uber and Lyft be without their drivers? Unionization sounds like a very good idea. Hit management where it counts, in their bank accounts. It seems to be the only way that workers can make progress for better earnings and working conditions.
8
Make them employees. Even better.
1
I’m confident that when we look back in 5 years or so we’ll understand that Uber and Lyft are essentially no different than payday loans, check cashing stores, furniture leasing and no-income verification loans. That is, these practices all prey on those with relatively low economic status sometimes coupled with a poor capability to understand critical math skills.
The guys runnning the businesses will make plenty of money but they will generally be scorned by society. Who knows, maybe someday we will come to view riders in Lyft and Uber as enablers. But I doubt it.
11
A lot of teachers in the Midwest and South make $40k or less. They work at least 60 hours a week.
15
Also not right. Why does one oppressed group mean that it’s ok for others to be oppressed? Neither is ok.
4
@SCZ great point. And speaking of teaching, the artist profiled here went to Yale for grad school according to his bio, so maybe he can find a better-paying job teaching art. He is making a choice.
1
Forgive my lack of outrage, but you are paid for the uniqueness of your skills. Driving a passenger vehicle is not skilled work. And doing unskilled work for many years, without any additional training or skill development, does not mean someone should be immediately given a raise or promoted.
Uber and Lyft still have much work to do in terms of employee and rider protections, but the fact is that they have brought the cost of a service down that was once only available to higher income people. Inexpensive transportation is now more available to those who can't afford cars, who cannot drive, who are inebriated, or who need a quick ride outside the operating hours of public transit.
This is a good thing - unless you were a taxi driver who is now upset at their monopoly being broken.
If drivers do not like the terms of their employment, they can always end their voluntary associations with Uber or Lyft.
14
@Not Surprised Whether they have brought the cost of the service down remains to be seen since venture capitalists are currently subsidizing every ride in an attempt to grow and gain market share.
2
They are not employees. They use a platform provided by Uber to make a few bucks. But not enough to live on.
2
There has got to be a safety net for the future Uber-style worker. Even some people working for massive companies in big offices don’t have it because their jobs are less and less permanent. Or they are working from home. Sometimes things like IT, law advice, personal accounting aren’t offered anymore either. This is the future. There needs to be a way for these people to go from job to job with their safety net and all those other things on their own back. Like portable benefits.
It doesn’t have to be subsidized entirely. Wall Street could even profit. Surely Silicon Valley can come up with something. Is no VC interested in the future of work? This astounds me.
5
Why does our society continue to favor corporations over people? Let me answer my own question. Follow the money! Those in power in Washington owe their political lives to their rich financiers. Until we get unlimited money out of our democracy, it will only get worse for the average American citizen.
17
With an AGI of 40K per year he should have money for repairs and a new car, after all these would be deductible business expenses. I would never drive for these organizations, and am retired but younger than he is. 40K for a flexible and part time job seems reasonable to me.
6
@vulcanalex
Deducting business expenses gives a 10% break to the driver. He's still on the hook for the other 90% of the expenses.
A major part of Uber's business model is that people don't understand proper cost accounting, as in the true cost of owning and maintaining a car.
14
@Jim S.
Jim
that id\s exactly was going on through my mind, i will point it out that if the IRA allows a deduction of 55 cents for mile drive company car it is because this is the true cost
2
@Antonio Vargas Heredia
Without a doubt less than the true cost especially considering that the Infernal Revenue Agency bases the deduction the average car.
The best way a person can support an Uber driver is to not use Uber. The driver in this article could work at a gas station making minimum wage and at the end of the day a) have more in his pocket, and b) not have the related stress of driving all those miles.
I have never used Uber, have no plans to use Uber, feel sorry for the Uber drivers and oh I HATE the Millennial Uber commercial on TV.
21
As a musician I've been part of the gig economy for years as are most folks who are creating, whether it's music, art or dance. If you want to continue your creative journey you have to find income and so many artists drive for Uber, Lyft etc. Clearly this driver is an artist who decided driving was better than 9-5 as it enabled him to chose when to be creative. The sad situation in the US is that we don't value and pay our creative people.
20
@Barbara S. We don't??? All those actors who make millions, sports stars who make a lot? Now we probably pay some way too much and others way too little, but your statement is foolish.
1
I worked for a company that had a corporate account with Lyft. Taking Lyft was a daily part of my job.
I don’t have a personal account, and use Lyft now only very rarely. I never use UBER.
It comes down to whether consumers feel entitled to use labor so poorly compensated that the laborers are, by being so poorly compensated, mistreated.
We’re all in this together.
It’s past time we all woke to the realities of a workplace that makes some people super rich off other peoples’ backs.
If you’re OK with this, use UBER, Lyft, and Amazon. If you’re not, don’t—or at least cut way back.
17
@David
Thanks for mentioning Amazon. I stopped using Amazon several years ago after I learned about the appalling working conditions of many of their workers.
1
I wonder why we are blaming UBER.
They are just paying their drivers as little as the market will bear.
The problem is obviously the fact that this economy does not provide better jobs for people of a certain age or limited set of skills.
More adequate minimum wage laws might help drivers find better jobs and force UBER to pay more.
11
@El Lucho Since they are not legally employees your minimum wage would have no effect. It is a choice, choose not to drive for these organizations.
3
I have ridden Uber a few times this month for the first time and I find the prices too low. In the past I would take a 'car service' from the airport to my office and my company would have paid $110. My Uber was $35 for a 25 mile ride that took 50 minutes. I tipped 15% on the app, but from now on I will tip cash and north to 20%
19
@Chris
Very good point. I was in Chicago recently for a relative's memorial service and took Uber for the first time. My wife, son and I were waiting for the bus but it was raining so my son got an Uber for the three of us. It was about a 15 minute drive and cost only $7. I couldn't believe how inexpensive it was for the convenience and wondered how it was possible for the driver to make money after the Uber commission and auto upkeep were deducted. Not to mention federal income tax and social security. We were glad to have the ride and tipped the driver--but I would not want to use the service again. Millennials love Uber and Lyft because they are so convenient and cheap but overlook the fact that Gig economy provides less than a subsistence living to its workers. Another day older and deeper in debt--Drivers and all contract workers in this "new" economy now owe their souls to the corporate store.
11
@REMC Those Uber-loving Millennials are complete hypocrites. They pride themselves on being altruistic, socially-conscious citizens, but turn a blind eye to all of that when it comes to Uber/Lyft. San Francisco is filled with these types. Not only are they ok paying slave wages to Uber/Lyft drivers, they somehow overlook the massive traffic congestion that 40,000 "rideshare" vehicles have created in this city. Every time I see the bank commercial with the young woman who says she cares so much about the world, all of her choices (including her bank) have to jive with with her oh-so-evolved, socially conscious views, I cringe. That same young woman will be calling "her Uber" the moment she leaves the bank.
3
If Uber and Lyft provide such useful services, would they not still be able to do so if they charged a few dollars more and paid their drivers better?
And this issue highlights another widespread issue. While companies deserve to be able to consider people providing occasional incidental services as independent contractors, the people who provide their core services - driving cars in the case of Uber and Lyft - out to be considered as, and given the benefits afforded under the law to, normal employees.
7
@Jim S. There are legal requirements for an independent contractor. Providing your own equipment and setting your schedule are two key components. Uber drivers do both.
2
@vulcanalex
That is the current definition, which needs to be changed. Flexible hours and using one's own tools ought not be grounds for losing the benefits and protections afforded employees.
4
@Jim S.Uber and Lyft have kept their prices artificially low (for now) to kill the competition. And they have done a good job. The taxi industry has been decimated. As a result, taxi drivers -- and their families -- are suffering. We don't hear much about them -- only the "poor" Uber/Lyft drivers. But it's a race to the bottom for everyone.
Mega companies have mega greed. Predatory greed. Now that Uber is king of the mountain, it would be real easy for Uber, with a wave of the pen--assist drivers with operating costs. No longer a struggling startup, name recognition, no need to advertise--treat the drivers with respect, they got you there. One thing is for sure, Uber is not going to change and somehow become better. A national walkout of customers and drivers will hurt drivers, but the ends will justify the means. And it won't take long.
15
Minimally regulated capitalism is really great for some people. Not great for the masses.
12
Most comments here express dislike for Uber, blaming it for exploiting drivers. Besides bias and emotion, how would you fix it?
If you think that drivers "should" net more income, then what "should" riders pay? What is a reasonable overhead for creating and running the scheduling operation? And like it or not, starting most business ventures requires investment. Given that most start-ups fail, what is a reasonable return on investments from success?
8
@Bob Krantz If drivers are paying for the vehicles, maintenance, gas and insurance, and they do 100% of the labor, do you think that it's fair for Uber to take 35-65% of the earnings for themselves? That's EXACTLY what they're doing.
Compared to 4 years ago, customers are paying significantly less, while Uber executive compensation increased and driver compensation dropped to 40% of what it once was. This isn't an issue of drivers making too much, this is an issue of Uber pocketing too much for the work of its drivers.
Are passengers paying too much? Possibly, because of surge pricing that can often double or triple the fares paid, however even though your $20 fare increased to $60 because of surge, the drivers are getting a percentage of the $20 fare, and of the extra $40 surge you paid, drivers will receive MAYBE $3. The other $37 goes to Uber. THAT is the problem.
Uber is using their drivers as a piggy bank to fund their other projects like scooters and self driving car program, and the drivers are forced to fund the cost of their replacement while Uber executives grow fat.
Uber created an app, but does ZERO percentage of the work and absorbs near ZERO percentage of the costs. If they can't turn a profit with those odds, do you think that they'll ever become profitable?
4
@Bob Krantz Your Apologia For The Plutocrats asks the usual questions with the usual assumptions. Bia and emotion? How about a cold hard fact for ya ... every empire ever has collapsed when the greed and hubris of the leadership class destroyed the social fabric. Today's greed and hubris is cloaked with folksy creepiness as noted in this article, and with the lying liars that populate the boardrooms and White House alike. How would I fix it? I would take a snapshot of the 1950s and tax the wealthy at 91% like Dwight Eisenhower did, I would tax corporations back to the 27% they used to contribute to our annual revenue, and I would cap the salaries of the management class to roughly the same percentage as it was in the 50's (CEOs made roughly 28 times the income of their average employees), and my god, I would invest in education to restore the "informed" aspect to our citizenry that is so lacking right now that we may indeed lose this Republic as Ben Franklin himself warned us would be difficult to keep.
2
Good idea for Uber drivers to make a union named Druber. This way all Uber drivers are organized and can literally stop all revenue to Uber.
7
@Ralph Petrillo Sure they can, they are not employees and a union might be rejected by management, just eliminate them from the system.
1
And don't forget the "grub hub" drivers and everyone else who runs around delivering junk food, And don't forget the ad agency employees who prostitute themselves creating mindless advertising spots of endlessly smiling people stuffing all sorts of garbage down their throats, or into their dwelling places.
And most of them are on and endless treadmill paying off student loans that have bought them a useless college degree that is the equivalent of a 1960's high school diploma.
20
@george eliot
A neighborhood teen delivers for Jimmy John’s. They pay one rate if he has a delivery, and a lower rate if he is on the job but has no deliveries. He says he averages about $5/hr.
Let’s see some investigative reporting on delivery drivers, and the manipulation of an hourly wage.
8
The article and the accompanying comments reads like an 'oh, gosh!' revelation to those whom are finally, at long last, understanding the basics of capitalism: "So the business owner makes the lion's share of the profits?? Wow!"
If you want to make the 60% (and by the way, making a 'mere' 40%, plus deductions, seems pretty fair in my book), then you build up a business from scratch. Furthermore, if you want to net out more than 40K a year driving an Uber, Lyft or Taxi, perhaps it's time to go independent.
And if you are a passenger/New York Times reader unhappy at the wages of your drivers, then how would you feel paying, say, 50-percent more for a ride? Better yet, why not just tip the guy more? But wait, the reason why you like Uber and Lyft so much is that they are relatively inexpensive....
Are you beginning to see how it all works now?
26
This is part of why I've become a Socialist. My being tossed into unemployment in my 50s despite being technically up to date is another.
Capitalism has failed. We have three people in the country who have as much wealth as the bottom 50%.
The Socialist Scandinavian countries have work, social supports, education, health care, and treat their older people decently, Sure, it costs more in taxes, but it is well worth it.
27
Count me as someone who has never used Uber, Lyft or Airbyb and never will. From the beginning I viewed the gig economy as exploitative of workers. The people using these services are supporting exploitation.
24
I would never use an Uber for safety reasons and because they exploit their drivers. Just like FedEx which requires it drivers to own their own delivery vans so that they end up making very little for the hours they work and the investment they have made. Say what you will about the US Postal Service, but, even though it has recently raised all of its prices, I can count on them to get my packages where they need to go on time and for a reasonable price and the workers get decent salary and benefits. And people assume gig economy workers are well paid because of the price paid for the service they provide. And this is not the only place workers are taken serious advantage of. My younger daughter teaches skiing at a famous resort and has many repeat clients who request her personally. They pay over a hundred dollars an hour for her private lessons and after years o training and having a very high ranking through skiing and teaching "tests" she gets only $25.00 per hour. She is provided with a logo jacket, but otherwise has to provide all of her own equipment which under the new tax laws is no longer a potential write-off. And there are many other "careers" where workers have to have special training, take recertification classes every other year at personal cost, work long hours in difficult weather, get few benefits while owners of the company rake in big money. I'm talking here about many health care workers, especially ambulance drivers,EMTs and Paramedics.
10
@Julie Carter
Remember Unions? I'm surprised these workers aren't joining together to put their economic lives on par with the employer. It was when Americans participated in Unions that they began to receive fairer treatment.
10
@Laurie FedEx does not require drivers to purchase delivery vehicles. Independent contractors buy routes from FedEx. The contractors then purchase the vehicles and hire drivers. Drivers are usually paid on a daily basis and normally have no benefits. In the Midwest the daily pay is around $140 and drivers normally work a 9-10 hour day. UPS drivers, being unionized, work directly for UPS make substantially more and have great benefits.
2
This driver makes no money, Uber loses money on each ride, no one is happy. Now the company wants to go public. Where is the value? Any value?
39
@Lee Irvine
My take is the main asset of these companies is politicians.
2
another story of corporate greed. when does it end?
it reminds me of where I work. no one has had a raise in 8 years.
but they tell us to sell something to the customer and we can earn a commission on it.
the item costs the customer $45--we get $5 and the rest goes to the private equity firm that owns everyone. Thats our raise.
.
11
@joan So find another job, or start your own business. Those are your alternatives, if you can't or won't do so well that is on you.
First the good :
Uber has been a " godsend " for people who need extra money and for people who don't own a car . Uber has made it as simple as possible for people to drive and extraordinary easy for riders with a smartphone .That is very clear and whatever someone wants to make of it cannot change that.
If one ignores the tax benefits my very small sample in Asheville NC , Charlotte NC, and Greenville SC produced about $10 an hour before gas and maintenance so, the bottom line was it was not more profitable than the lowest hourly wage jobs , but sitting and driving could be considered easier than other manual labor .
As for my home NYC Uber was not needed outside of Staten Island and parts of Queens so I am still surprised it was allowed in .
1
@VB
$10 per hour before gas and maintenance would leave you with almost nothing. This may be easier than manual labor, as you say, but certainly it is less profitable than minimum wag jobs like fast food, retail, etc.
5
@Gofry
The net result was clear in my post , so I don't know why you replied and even got liked . I also pointed out that I was excluding the tax advantages . So comparing it to minimum wage jobs with no tax advantages that usually involve additional costs and time like commuting and is not an fair and complete comparison , so your conclusion is faulty .
Done lots of tax returns for Uber drivers. Virtually all lose money when you take into account depreciation on auto and repairs.
Not a good business for drivers in general.
81
It is sad that people, like this author have so little understanding of the tax system. If this man drives 50k business miles a year, the deduction for that alone was around 27.5k. It is mildly deceptive to say that his AGI is 40k when his gross Uber income has to be at least 70k. His actual gas expense is closer to 6k. I am not disagreeing with the basic thesis, but let's start with the premise of getting the math right. A professional tax preparer.
10
@Chuck Burton
The alleged 'President' says if you are smart, you don't have to pay taxes silly.
4
Uber's business model is merely the same paradigm of every other Ummurican business that makes money: cut out the unions, squash anything like benefits, pensions or decent wages, and let the schleppers take their marks at the starting line every day. Of course the smart people who set this in motion will get rich. That was always their intention. How unspeakably sad the deceptions worked on their hapless drivers that make them so wealthy, while they drive themselves hopelessly further into debt like latter-day coal miners at the company store.
25
This is why America needs democratic socialism. That means that everyone, including low-earning Uber drivers, get affordable health care that will never turn them down, or put them into bankruptcy.
It means that even Uber drivers will receive retirement payments, even if they're part-time, and their employers will have to pitch in.
It means that they won't be forced into poverty by greedy capitalists who take most of the $100 billion market valuation, while the drivers are faced with a deepening financial hole and exhaustion from overwork.
It means that they will be guaranteed a living wage and decent working conditions, and that those capitalists who take in the $100 billion will pay.
Get it?
28
Agree wholeheartedly. We need Bernie.
9
What is clear from the story and comments is that the "gig" economy has advantages for the public and some workers (and potential fortunes for its investors), but is a model based on the stripping of economic benefits provided to workers as part of the compromise between Labor and Capitalists reached in the early 20th Century. One important consequence of this shift overlooked in most press coverage is that the health insurance provided to workers by corporations as part of that 20th century compromise with Labor is lost in the gig economy, to be replaced not by "Medicare for All" (a model popular with the over-65 population and with members of Congress who give themselves excellent free medical coverage) but instead inferior and expensive "Exchange" medical insurance that doesn't cover much, usually with high deductibles and out-of-pocket to make it remotely affordable.
12
The gig economy, providing personal chauffeurs to everyone in this case, is simply a way for those with lots of capital to aggregate and commoditize labor such that it costs them a fraction of what fielding an actual workforce would cost. They profit wildly as they destroy (let’s skip the self serving euphemism ‘disrupt’) functioning businesses and as they eliminate options for a living wage.
As a self employed commercial photographer, free to set my own rates for work and beholden to nobody except the state tax department, I watched as giant venture capital aggregators destroyed the stock photography libraries. A beautiful symbiosis of creator-agent-buyer was decimated by capital which was deployed to put these businesses out of business, then aggregate and control the market. Creators were left out of the equation as these giant companies offered lower and lower prices to customers trying to drive higher sales for themselves as they grabbed higher and higher percentages of that diminishing revenue. The market is all but dead now except for Eastern European photo mills which crank out cheap content for these giants. Ever wonder why so much stock looks “off”? It’s not made here any more.
This is the nature of big capital. Not to create, But to be deployed. Deployed in a way that brings big returns for the holders no matter the cost to others.
Clutch my pearls... Uber drivers are not doing well ... who could have guessed?
10
@MitchW Yes Uber drivers probably should find a different job, that would either put uber out of business or force them to share more of the income.
1
The genius of 21st century vulture capitalism is that it has made itself young, cool, hip; it's on my phone, which is infinitely smarter than everyone (including the nimble-fingered laborer who assembled it); it's a tap of the finger; it's now and its always evolving. It's not Sinclair's "Jungle," it's Beezo's entrepreneurism. The problem is, every once in a while one of its workers looks up and asks, "what just happened?" after it's run over them.
14
As a single woman you will never see me using Uber or the like. I may as well just stand on the corner and stick my thumb out. That's what this is - sticking my thumb out via an app. Unregulated industries are making money for the owners and not the employees, but of course, that's what Trump wants, so he is hot to trot for outfits like this. For my own safety and for the good of a system that ought not go this way as fast as it is going, I won't use them.
10
Any business built on the misfortune of its workforce does not belong on the New York Stock Exchange; it belongs in the annals of history. Uber’s ‘convenience at any cost’ model makes me sick, and I, for one, can not wait to see its demise.
42
As a sister of an Uber driver who works 6 days a week in NYC, I can only hope folks tip. My bro is kind, funny and a safe driver. Just a hard-working guy trying to make an honest living. A few bucks for your fellow American who can’t afford health insurance and lives in a city where a one bedroom is almost 3k will go a long way. This article is upsetting to me, as it’s a sign of the times. Shame on you Uber.
Thanks for reading.
25
How is it possible that he "can't afford health insurance"? NYC has free or low-cost health insurance.
1
NYC has free health insurance??
4
@Nic Only if you are very poor. Also deductibles, if it is not medicaid, are huge.
6
If this guy makes $40k per year driving for Uber, he is lucky. Most drivers make less than $10 per hour after expenses, Uber's cut and self-employment tax, all while beating up their cars. Cab drivers make more money and drive less.
Every year since Uber started, they have reduced driver payout percentages, and will have to do more, since they are not profitable.
The drop out rate is something like 75%, and it would be more if all drivers had the ability or motivation to closely examine their pay and expenses.
Bottom line– it is a terrible job.
24
“no savings to buy a new car that will let him keep working.”
In the mid 1980’s I serviced X-Ray processors in Nassau then Queens using my personal vehicle. I was paid monthly for maintenance and mileage.
At first it seemed I was making out alright until I needed to come up with money for a new vehicle.
10
The drivers here who say that Uber is great sound like young people who haven’t seen what a car and driving long hours really costs you. The cost of the car, gas, maintenance and insurance is way more than $25 an hour. And that’s if everything goes well with no accidents or natural disasters. Uber also uses algorithms to dupe drivers into driving more by dangling bonuses which are always out of reach.
16
These driver jobs seem like minimum wage jobs that have a lot of great benefits up front but don’t pay out in the long run. Where did the idea come from that being an Uber driver would be a sustainable career? Couldn’t imagine seeing an article about a 71 year old artist in the Bay Area working as a cook for McDonald’s, telling everyone about how he can’t make ends meet. It’s nice to have the option to be able to move to another state and make career changes, I don’t understand why people subject themselves to the Bay Area rat race.
5
I just don't understand the math here. In the IPO announcement it said that Uber had income of about $11.3B and an EBITDA loss of $1.8B in 2018. How can you bring in $11B and lose $1.8B running an iPhone app? I can sort of understand how Amazon lost money initially, having to build huge warehouses and hiring actual employees. But what did Uber squander >$10B on? Overpaid execs and lawyers to fight local taxi ordinances?
46
@Les Most of the money goes to subsidizing the businesses that Uber is growing in. So when you get a discount for ordering through Ubereats... that is where the 10B goes.
3
@Etymologist
Helpful, thanks. But then I would ask the same question there - how can you lose billions of dollars on Uber eats, etc? Mostly what they are doing is running an app for those businesses as well. The people delivering the food aren't employees and Ubereats doesn't own those vehicles either.
At some point, a lot of these tech startups look like pyramid schemes. A few early players invest a moderate amount of money, then enlist other participants to invest lots more, churn, churn, churn, then make an IPO and run...
2
@Etymologist
Utter Nonsense.
I just looked at Uber's Form S-1 they filed with the SEC.
'Ubereats' is a REVENUE stream generated that goes into Uber's pocket.
How did he only make $11 in tips for 25 rides?
7
@SXM no armrests and only 1 cup holder
3
@SXM
Because people who use services like Uber are often too cheap to tip or assume he gets most of the money he charges. Take an airport shuttle sometime where the driver helps you lift your large suitcase onto the van and notice how few people even give him a dollar for his help! And this person probably make minimum wage with no benefits.
7
$11 in tips? Either there is some underreporting here or the people of San Francisco are lousy tippers. If you use Lyft or Uber, you know these drivers are not making a decent wage from the companies. The least you can do is tip.
5
@Theresa Why tip? That's an added cost to us...when the driver should in the first place be paid better. I never tip Uber drivers and now I will boycott Uber and I hope others do the same until Uber's greed changes to fairness.
7
Until recently, the app didn’t even have a tip option, so unless you carried small bills, you couldn’t tip
2
@Martin
That's just an excuse. Most drivers probably have change! We always take real taxis and I can guarantee you the drivers carry change to facilitate tipping!
Doing something you love and not breaking even categorizes it as a hobby. If one needs higher income then driving in an area that does not result in positive financial gain is probably not the best choice of professions. Seems like simple financial advice.
That said, Uber and Lyft could go further with limiting the driver pool by zip to increase driver fares. Check your ap and see how many are circling the block hoping to get a rider.
Uber...Lyft...the business versions of Donald Trump. They use the labor and resources of those who work for them to fuel the business. They operate with borrowed/invested funds. They lose money. They walk away rich. The new version of The American Dream. Sad.
49
I work out of a home office now with a company phone, laptop, and internet access. The heating, cooling, electricity, and storage are on me. I could have deducted the space on my taxes but would have had to wait three years for the one time capital gains exemption upon sale.
1
Maybe I have reading comprehension issues, but I missed the part of the story which explains why Ashlock -- or anyone -- is being forced to work for Uber. Anyway, why are there rich people in the world when there are poor people too? That's not fair. Why can't we steal the rich people's money and give it to the poor? This is just common sense and social justice.
8
Many people I know who drive for Uber/Lyft do so part time, as a way to make some extra cash. I also have seen many ads depicting driving for these companies as a “side hustle” (talk about romanticizing drug dealing) where one can come and go as they please. Clearly, this “side hustle” is not the sunshiny reality faced by most drivers, especially if one has built their entire source of income off of the app. Uber/Lyft’s marketing is intentional; by equating driving to a “side hustle,” there can be no room for drivers to demand for better pay and benefits. Late stage capitalism is a scary place to be.
189
@EB - A friend in LA, unable to drive my spouse and I to the airport, ordered us a ride via Uber. I like to chat, at least sometimes, and he was bright, but found out that he had a Master in Computer Science that was not being used in his regular work, checked on houses along the coast for foreign owners, and was thinking of selling insurance, all the while working doing logistics for a shipping company. He even brought over his parents from China to reduce his costs. Yes, he drove Uber as a side-gig, and some might laud his ambition, but I couldn't help but see someone that was struggling to make a decent living.
21
The gig economy is the continuation of the decline of the front line workers. Early on was outsourcing, where employers reduced the size of payroll and these outsourced workers were employed by 'service agencies' that provided little to no benefits, a lower cost but ultimately less efficient to society in its entirety. In addition, our society (through our government) has devalued workers by changing the tax code that penalizes wages versus passive income (ie capital gains) and restricting unions. Union provide a mechanism for employees to band together. The people (through our government) continue to support restrictions if not nearly the elimination of unions, which are supported by the judical system, which is being filled with justices with similar belief. The current gig economy represented by Uber and Lyft have taken this to another level further contributing to wealth inequality. In many ways, our society is coming closer to medieval feudalism than the gilded age of the post-civil war era of the 1800s.
35
@Michael A
Yep, you got it right
Uber is losing money. They state in their prospectus for going public that they don't see any way of getting to profitability. Therefore, when they burn through their capital, and no one will invest any more, they will go bankrupt. What exactly are they trying to do?
3
@Jonathan
End goal: Sell their stock options and get very rich.
Cares: Who me, worry?
2
It is easy for people to respond, “they are contractors and they know about this status when they join”. This is not a job that is meant to provide benefits and security like some salaried positions.
Of course, this is the problem. Uber isn’t profitable at all. Delivery companies such as Grubhub, Postmates, Instacart might not be in the hole but also get by on slim margins because the people that actually power their business — drivers — are not paid enough money. “If you can’t pay a living wage, you don’t have a viable business”.
Contract-based work is common in many countries. However, these countries have robust social safety nets, worker protections (regardless of industry), and health insurance. There’s nothing wrong with less secure, contract-based work if there’s a wider social safety net.
I work at one of these “gig” companies as a salaried employee in the main office. Some of my colleagues have exorbitant salaries given the work they do. I would get rid of the free snacks in the kitchen and catered lunches if it meant our workforce had basic employment benefits.
46
I am glad to see this New York Times Article. Articles such as this one should have been in the media years ago! Uber has few assets. Aside from the naked exploitation of its drivers and the autos that they may not get sufficient funds to fix and operate safely - there is the issue of the security of all the financial information Uber now holds. One successful hacking and Uber could face massive liabilities. This is information investors and potential investors should be aware of.
12
Uber doesn’t provide the experience the driver does. As the article describes, Uber pushes the overhead onto the driver. So the driver works hard and spends extra time and money they might not even have to keep the car nice. In effect, Uber riders don’t experience an “old cramped taxi” because that is where the Uber driver is living.
Uber is just a matchmaking service with a rating system that leashes drivers to demanding and unaccountable consumers.
10
I had a nice chat with an Uber driver last night.
Actually, we were nowhere near a car. He was our waiter, and his time on the road driving for Uber wouldn't start until he clocked out at the restaurant. He also did odd jobs on the side.
For someone who is single, young, very flexible, and is planning for a completely different future but needs to make a few extra bucks in the meantime, Uber is perfect.
6
@KJ Do you realize what you just said? Our economic system is so broken that in order to survive this hardworking guy needs to have 2 or 3 jobs. Wouldn't it be nice if he had one job with a living wage and could enjoy life a little?
15
@Joe
That's exactly what I just said. He's working towards the "one job with a living wage" just like a lot of other ambitious young people and students. In the meantime, he's scrambling for cash. Enter Uber.
2
Uber isn’t a good thing. It’s not good that the waiter has to have 2-3 jobs to get by. Wake up.
7
Can they keep their cash tips? That would seem fair for the drivers. Hoping they don’t have to claim them. 60% to Uber is enough!
Taxes. That is all.
1
Interestingly, the NYT article that was next to this one compared Uber and Lyft. Turns out both are losing billions of dollars. So they are ripping off their drivers to the extent portrayed in the article and comments and still losing that much. The article cited driver pay and incentive as to the major costs.
10
@SXM
Corporations in the building phase always lose money. I see those losses as investments in the future provided that care is taking to make certain there is a future.
What is different in these hyper new types of businesses is the tolerance for losing massive amounts of money. Amazon set the early example telling its investors to be patient that they would be losing for a long time. Once they turned to profit, investors began to develop more of a wait and see attitude. Besides, if you hold Uber stock, you are going to make a killing just by the public offering, even if the stock later goes down or even if the company eventually fails. It is all about faith in the future and faith that the people running the business know what they are doing.
@SXM does anyone else think Ponzi-type scheme when they read about Uber and Lyft?
4
We've entered a stage of economic development where -- for the time being at least -- we have effectively entered what could be called a "zero" sum game. Corporate profits are now -- and this might just be the consequence of more "efficient" management techniques -- truly dependent upon the impoverishment of the working class. We see this manifested in any number of ways. Union-busting governments which label themselves "right-to-work. Re-writing intellectual property laws so as to compel the use (Monsanto, anybody) of corporate products. The unrelenting downward pressure (under the guise of deregulation) on workplace health and safety standards. The suppression of scientific research (as inn the well-financed campaign to label climate-change a "hoax") which might threaten corporate bottom-lines. The continuing trend to relabel employees as "self-employed contractors" -- Uber -- so that they might more easily be tossed under the bus whenever convenient. And entire industries (for-profit "education") based on using the desperation of the poor to extract even more wealth out of them.
And -- one suspects -- it is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.
28
I was also struck by the sign held by the driver shown demonstrating in the first picture, claiming that Uber keeps $24 of a $40 fare, leaving $16 for the driver. In other words, Uber takes 60%. How representative is that? Could you (NYTimes) please do a deeper dive into who gets how much from an Uber or Lyft fare? To me, that is as relevant to the fairness or absence thereof of Uber, Lyft & Co. than a driver's daily take.
58
@Pete in Downtown
I drive for Uber in Boston. If the rider pays $40, I get $28. I typically net $25 to $30 an hour after expenses. Uber has issues, but the percentage they take from a ride isn't one of them. These driver articles always are misleading.
18
Yes, I’d like to know more about this.
2
@Pete in Downtown I do tax returns for VITA and see Uber and Lyft drivers often. It bothered me so much to see how little that they make that I started keeping track. Here's a sample: 305 trips. Income: $5,290. Lyft fees: $2,073. Mileage cost: $1,810. Taxes: $662. NET: $745. This works out to $2.44/ride. This is typical.
10
Uber is the equivalent of a payday lender. The desperate borrower, the driver, gets quick cash but ends up behind. One commenter said capitalism is turning more and more people into serfs. Exactly. And US capitalism, which can't withstand other economic models, overthrows them. Violence at home, violence abroad.
47
Don't know where to even begin. Bottom line is that no one is forcing anyone to do anything and everyone knows what they are getting into beforehand.
Uber and other sharing services have to attract both parties to bring them together. In this case, they need drivers and riders. If the drivers don't like the terms, then don't join! If they start and then don't like the terms, then quit!
If Uber doesn't attract the number of drivers needed for their business, they will need to change the conditions to do so. Same for the riders. There are no "victims" here!
Imagine what would happen if one took a project from an organization and then in the middle of it, demanded more compensation and to become an employee of the company with benefits. Would that fly? I don't think so.
Seems like this country is becoming the poster child for "it's everyone else's fault" I'm a victim, I'm a victim!
Grow up.
15
@Bill Grownups voluntarily do the right thing by others. that is not what is going on here. If you can get away with exploiting people for your own gain, then that means you have the power to do so and that you are abusing your power. Power abuse is never okay, and it is not what mature, intelligent, moral adults do. The abused are not the ones who need to grow up here.
15
Empathy is the expression of a sophisticated mind.
11
@Eric H
And irrational empathy leads to all kinds of foolish and destructive behavior (read Paul Bloom).
1
I’m shocked his tips were so low on $200 in rides. Sounds like Silicon Valley is full of cheap money grubbers who can’t even tip fairly.
121
@JJ
Sort of, but sometimes the fares don't feel all that cheap. Sunday night rides from Sea-Tac to my home (about 17 mostly highway miles) are now running close to $70. I'm just a bit shocked that the driver is receiving less than half that amount.
6
@JJ This entire line of thinking is wrong. Companies shouldn’t underpay their employees and then claim that the public should make up the rest in tips. There shouldn’t even be an option for tips, it only leaves the system open to abuse from people making your exact argument - I.e. deflecting blame from the company and onto “cheap money grabbers” when even the breakdown shows exactly where the fare actually goes.
10
It’s important to note that Uber and Lyft (UL) often do provide a significantly superior user experience compared to taxis, public transport, and driving. Safety, convenience, comfort, information, and cost are included in this evaluation. I will ignore, and do not condone, the treatment of drivers as others have covered that subject. The UL apps are simple, tell you when to expect your ride and the cost, and allow you to rate and tip the driver (does he driver get it all?). When it works (nearly always), it’s hassle-free.
Here is a data point. On a recent trip from Boston to San Francisco and Oakland, my spouse and I took about 20 rides. In all but one case, the car was in very good condition (I check the visible things, including tires). Two rides were in a Mercedes and one in a Maserati. A five minute wait was the longest; two minutes was the norm. The app shows the car approach. The drivers (all men BTW. Why is that?) were mostly good; none were bad. There were some good conversations. We used UL on three of the four trips to/from the airport ($35 or so, half the Boston taxi fare) and once over the bridge to Oakland. We used BART (dangerously noisy over 100dB underground, not that cheap for two, crowded, and tricky with luggage) on one trip.
For comparison, we called a taxi in Oakland. It took 15 minutes to arrive, the car was old and cramped and would be unsafe on the highway. The driver was grumpy and rude.
If UL could treat their drivers well, it could be good.
13
Of all the disruptive platforms, Uber is the worst. How is it legal to create a business that depends on exploitatively low pay and that shifts the operating costs to the workers?
I do not and will never use Uber.
66
@Cate Here in America bribing politicians has been made legal, that's how.
7
I never have and never will use Uber either.
11
Uber would be smart to offer its drivers an opportunity to participate in the IPO, much like Square did for its participating small business owners, such as myself. The price of my shares in Square are now worth over eight times what I paid and I feel I have an investment in the company's success. Better yet, why not provide Uber drivers free shares of stock based on how much money they have made for the company?
64
I wish we lived in a culture which cared more about each other such that, people would stop using these companies which abuse their employees/workers (what is an Uber driver in relation to Uber); stop using companies which take our money, then give zero back in taxes, a la Amazon. The only way we can break the corporate greed which is suffocating us all and doing so much damage is to stop stuffing their pockets. Stop complaining; stop saying you care and then going out and patronizing these abusers. Stop feeding these beasts.
34
We have become a nation of shameless whiners. Don't like your job? Quit. Don't like the company you are working for? Quit. No jobs in your area? Save every penny and relocate your life. Not making enough money? Live within your means. I have done all of these in my lifetime. It was hard sometimes. Because life is hard sometimes. It takes zero skill to drive a car. $40,000 seems like a fair wage for unskilled work. There are teachers out there actually contributing something valuable who are not paid that much. Get a grip.
29
@Pam
I can't get a job. Can't get SSA/SSI. Can't afford rent or food or gas.
I drove for Uber and lost money in fuel and maintenance.
So I Quit. Being handicapped and crippled with prosthesis failures the idea of finding a job is rediculous.
But I can drive...for a loss...
13
@blues player. But you to not drive, because it was at a loss. You make Pam's point.
@Pam
That $40,000 isn't net (after costs), it's gross. Out of it comes not only the guy's living expenses, but all of the expenses of maintaining and repairing an ever-aging car that is required for him to get that $40,000.
3
I don't really blame Uber (there will always be greedy low life's), however I do blame the American people, who by the millions continue to let a very small number of people rob and destroy our society with their psychopathic greed.
12
The problem with Uber, Lyft, Airbnb, and similar services is that you have non-professionals attempting to make money in businesses that should be run by professionals. It’s hard to be successful in almost anything. I used Airbnb twice. The first time was okay. The second time I left and went to a motel. Just because you have a spare room in your house, doesn’t mean you know how to be a good host. You might think you do, but you don’t. And just because you own a car doesn’t mean you know how to be a chauffeur. These businesses have been around for a long time. The people who have the knowledge, temperament, and passion for these businesses will succeed. Everyone else will fail.
52
I find everything about Uber disgusting. From the rating of drivers and passengers to the low wages and tyrannical treatment of the drivers. The owners are vultures preying on the desperation of their workers who have bought into the nonsense of the "sharing "and "gig" economy out of fear. It's horrible.
329
@Hugh CC AirBnb and HomeAway are the same way. Tyrannical, authoritarian beasts who have perpetrated a massive property/business grab, have taken hold of other people's properties and vacation-rental businesses, flipped the tables, and now treat us like we are their employees and if we don't hand full control of our properties and businesses over to them (other than maintenance and paying taxes and mortgages, of course!), they literally delist or bury our listings to make sure we don't get any business. It's sick. But they have a stranglehold in that they are engaging in the new way of doing business now in America, which is to emulate your competitor so that there really isn't any competition but more duopolies showing up and no choice for consumers. A form of collusion, IMO. AirBnb, in fact, has, ironically, put me out of business, and I am now figuring out how I am going to keep my home. These are destructive, evil people. Never do business with someone who doesn't have to look you in the eye.
53
@Hugh CC
Could not agree with you more. I despise - and will therefore never use - anything related to this destructive gig economy.
19
These gig economy type jobs are really just slick pyramid schemes, the people at the top who got in early will
Make a killing whilst everyone else is just a commodity to be used and abused. Working people, wake up and boycott companies like these who are setting back workers rights by decades.
45
Hmm. The next time I am faced with a choice of walking 3 miles or calling an Uber, I think I’ll opt for getting some steps in. No more Ubers for me.
Stories like this make me very, very tired. As I said in my comment on the basement pool story last week, enough. the super rich are a scourge on society that must somehow be stopped.
45
I wholeheartedly agree.
2
@Frieda Vizel - It brings up an interesting point, that all of these systems are forms of control, from the review system, through the algorithms that 'incentivize' workers to be out on the street, essentially fooling them into driving down the value of their own time. The logic is such that it gives the drivers enough of a reason, or at least the illusion of one, to work, while not providing them enough to live on. Much of this can be modeled via behaviorism, with the reward system, along with the potential for punishment, forming a system of manipulation, the same type of modeling that occurs with social media, addiction, and gambling.
@Frieda Vizel - It brings up an interesting point, that all of these systems are forms of control, from the review system, through the algorithms that 'incentivize' workers to be out on the street, essentially fooling them into driving down the value of their own time. The logic is such that it gives the drivers enough of a reason, or at least the illusion of one, to work, while not providing them enough to live on. Much of this can be modeled via behaviorism, with the reward system, along with the potential for punishment, forming a system of manipulation, the same type of modeling that occurs with social media, addiction, and gambling.v
3
The gig economy has turned us all into serfs. Corporations outsourced our jobs and laid us off when we were over 50 and earning our highest income. Unable to even get an interview we downsize, dig into savings and eventually become Walmart greeters or Uber drivers. We burn through our savings and then it is gone when we need it the most. The stock market climbs but most of us don’t participate
Is this the greatest economy or what?
171
This is exactly why we need Bernie.
18
@JJ Exactly, JJ.
signed,
another qualified hard worker tossed out by HP in my fifties.
10
So after spending thousands on transmission repairs (Nissan) he wants to buy ANOTHER?
Not smart.
3
It’s got 218K miles on it, so he wants to buy ANOTHER.
Smart.
2
I have never taken an Uber and never will.
The company is not innovative, it is criminally opportunistic.
It takes advantage of drivers who underestimate the variable cost of depreciation (actual miles) on a vehicle in a service industry. The driver takes his or her vehicle as a sunk cost rather than seeing depreciation as a per mile cost. That is just one issue.
The company disregarded regulation and has de-formalized an industry. It is akin to allowing people to set up unlicensed food vending and pay labor under minimum wage.
Having worked in Haiti for over two decades, it was easy to see Uber for what it is the day it started. It is an ugly abuse of labor and amazing how young people blindly abuse drivers by using it.
I am disgusted that it is headed by a fellow Brown grad.
226
@Patrick Moynihan
I share your pain and disdain.
There is no “sharing” in “ride sharing,” so I wish the media would come up with another term.
14
@Barbara
Totally. Sharing is a deceiving term here. It is not a win-win.
I wrote an op-ed on this topic over two years ago: https://www.providencejournal.com/opinion/20170329/patrick-moynihan-uber-seems-unfair-to-its-drivers?template=ampart
10
Article makes a fair point when it observed that drivers make little money after considering the cost of gas and repairs. But is is not fair to hold Uber accountable for costs incurred by a driver who must drive so far to begin picking up rides.
1
It is a fair point. The worker can not afford to pay rent in the market where he works. Thus, he must incur a cost to travel to that market.
19
@Kevin Katz Then why is he driving for Uber?
“I am rather at Uber’s mercy,” How so? Don’t drive for them!
If anyone thinks that some Silicon Valley whiz kid and a Wall St bank is their savior, they need their head examined.
8
I cannot understand why a taxi dispatch company is considered a high tech unicorn and worth over $100B.
121
Welcome back to feudalism, which originally flourished in medieval Europe between the 9th and 15th centuries when land barons lorded it over penniless laborers until their bank accounts overflowed with gold.
Today, the 'sharing' economy allows you to share your slave-like labor via iSlave app with unregulated winner-take-all venture capitalists and Wall St. parasites.
Winner-take-all.
Everyone else takes grinding poverty.
A little more good government regulation to facilitate living wages and the human dignity of workers is long overdue.
The 'free-market' shouldn't be a slave market.
243
@Socrates - Yeah, and the slaves all sign up voluntarily. They could get another kind of job, or start their own local business, but they think they will make good money driving for Uber. You would think they would at least quit when they find out they were wrong.
6
@Jonathan - Uber lies and misrepresents its viability to workers, and the idea of starting a business is in fact a road to failure unless you are already well-placed...
27
@James Igoe
Right. It amazes me, though it shouldn't anymore, of how people are so quick to say the subject can pick one: just move; start a business; quit; leave town; etc.
Clearly the commenter has never started a business which is entirely different than actually earning a living from your own business. It takes years for small businesses to make enough to actually pay the owners. If they survive at all.
8
Capitalism and human exploitation at its worst. This is third world stuff here.
Congratulations silicon valley!
146
@Gord Lehmann I’m seeing ‘exploitation’ a lot in posts here. Can you please define how you’re using this term?
@HM Paying people a pittance, making them pay for their own gas, insurance, repairs etc so that wealthy investors can make more money.
That's exploitation.
4
@Gord Lehmann If only there were some way for the Uber drivers to get out of the Uber system...
An Uber driver makes a decision, with every ride, whether to accept it or not.
Whether it makes economic sense to a particular driver should be up to that driver. There are other jobs.
I don’t understand Mr. Ashlock’s gripe. Uber owes him nothing. If Mr. Ashlock had been more productive in his younger years and worked hard, sacrificed, invested, and saved, he would not have to work for Uber now. Uber would then use another driver.
This article is written to make the reader feel sorry for the victim because a bunch of rich (probably men and white) are going to profit from their own investment, risk taking, and hard work.
Mr. Ashlock and others like him should be happy for the opportunity to drive for Uber. It’s not the life anyone might choose for oneself but that outcome was put in motion years ago. That wasn’t Uber’s doing. Uber is not the bad guy here. Uber is just the opposite. After all, how many companies offer employment opportunities to 71 year olds with no marketable skills?
10
@Matt Williams If it was an "employment opportunity" this whole discussion would be very different. Uber spends a ton of money lobbying to ensure that the drivers are NOT employees. It's actually just another scam dressed up as a high tech company. Eventually drivers will wise up or find options that actually let them make a living.
46
@wrt I think that’s actually @Matt Williams point - that drivers have the freedom to make the choice of finding other options. That “Uber owes them nothing” so if they’re not happy, they should stop driving. And if the supply of drivers decreases, Uber will have to provide greater incentives to attract drivers to run their business.
1
Any valuation for this IPO, like many others, is smoke and mirrors.
All I see is an unsustainable business. The percentages are upside down.
Future technology will remove the Uber management layer and the riding public will be better served by dealing directly with each driver...the sooner the better for those doing the work to get paid a much better wage.
14
I don't understand why there is push back in the comments section against the central point that the drivers are being exploited. It is an algorithm in an app. The company should be taking 10%. More if there are benefits offered. It's simple math and simply more decent. But we don't live in very decent times do we?
86
@Michael Can you define exploitation in this context? And why 10%?
1
So now we understand that the gig economy, much like the regular one, is producing an ever growing number of have nots along with an ever smaller number of haves. We can blame the have nots for the choices they have made and rationalize this unsustainable level of inequality, while suffering through the social and political dysfunction that is now threatening the foundations of society, or we can honestly look at the rules of the game and see if this great wealth producing system of capitalism can be made to function better for the majority. I believe that ultimately every worker who is by definition a major stakeholder should also be a shareholder. How can public policy encourage that result? Second every citizen whose tax dollars have helped create the infrastructure on which these tremendous fortunes for the haves are being built should also have a piece of the pie. Tax payer dollars after all created the Internet in the first place! The benefits should be more widely shared across the population. The critical question again is how can public policy empower the public? Politicians keep trying to fix the many problems for people being left behind by the system, with patches for housing, healthcare, etc. At some point before it's too late perhaps some will turn their attention to the system itself.
17
I'm so grateful for this piece of important coverage on the gig economy. It lays out the math clearly. If you earn $224 a night and still need to drive 65 miles home, still have to absorb all the overhead, how are you making a living? You are not - this is exploitation, plain and simple!
And the review system is an added element of abuse. I just intimidates workers into being good little tools. Notice that someone bothered to report to Uber that Mr. Ashlock made them uncomfortable with some argument, and Uber - ugh, this so disgusts me - still came to the driver and turned it on them, instead of providing a sliver of protection for the driver. The gig economy motto is: "The customer is always right --- and the one who is to blame is the lowly employee."
Every spoiled or heartless customer can take out their anger by complaining or leaving a bad review. I see how gig workers, from Lyft drivers to Etsy stores, bend over sixteen times to avoid a bad review -- free water, super nice conversation, always a gift in a $12 Etsy order, fancy wrapping. These poor people! They shouldn't have to be miracle workers to have earned a dollar. We put them on trial after they make a sale with a take-home of $6 while the company they work for is out of the picture.
I wish we'd topple the entire gig economy with its awful reviewing-the-friendliness-of-every-janitor system.
351
@Frieda Vizel ~
Excellent summary. It perfectly expresses how I feel.
20
@Frieda Vizel - It brings up an interesting point, that all of these systems are forms of control, from the review system, through the algorithms that 'incentivize' workers to be out on the street, essentially fooling them into driving down the value of their own time. The logic is such that it gives the drivers enough of a reason, or at least the illusion of one, to work, while not providing them enough to live on. Much of this can be modeled via behaviorism, with the reward system, along with the potential for punishment, forming a system of manipulation, the same type of modeling that occurs with social media, addiction, and gambling.
* I accidentally posted this in another area, so reposting it here.
19
@Frieda Vizel I believe Uber drivers can also rate customers. At one point, my peers told me this and I checked my own rating which were high because I am a polite person who tips. If one's ratings are low however, it may be harder or take much longer to get a ride.
2
While it would be nice if everyone who works at a company had some stake in an IPO but it's often the reality that they don't. Add in the fact that Uber doesn't consider him an employee at all and there you go. The gig economy doesn't appeal to me at all, but as long as people are desperate or foolish enough to participate on the employment side there's nothing one can do. There are also quite a few former cab drivers that can't be a part of Uber's IPO.
4
This is nothing less than a driver-subsidized service and yet they have no stake in the business. Also many drive for both Uber and Lyft. The valuations are bonkers on both counts.
17
I wouldn’t invest in Lyft or Uber. Those companies are going to fail for one simple reason - it’s the drivers who know the business. Uber is just an app. It’s a fast classified ad. The drivers who are truly committed to the business will learn how to make money by circumventing Uber. They will know where the customers are before the customers use the apps. These drivers will splinter off and form their own services that take down these ride-sharing services.
14
Uber drivers are in good position to unionize once the company goes public. Uber will be flush with money from the offering and the shareholders will be in charge.
Start organizing, unionize, strike for higher wages, and when the share price plummets because revenue is drying up, shareholders will revolt, Uber management will capitulate, and wages will rise.
It's work for decades in the past, no reason why unions can't work that way today.
285
@cherrylog754
That will not be easy. The right-wing has perfected many different union preventing/busting tactics over the last 100 years and they will all be deployed with a fury to prevent any gig workers from organizing. Because they know that one successful unionization could open the floodgates as people rediscover why unions existed in the first place.
28
@Pat No, it won't be easy, but it wasn't back in the first half of the 20th Century either. There were the robber barons, strike breakers, violence, and some deaths. But the unions succeeded, and to the betterment of my generation in the 60's and 70's.
29
@cherrylog754
Independent contractors are not allowed to unionize by law.
5
This is an example of exactly why I've hated these services, except when the employees actually benefit, is that the corporation takes most of the profit and drives down cost, turning workers into wage slaves and often breaking existing laws, while serving to make the lives of affluent people easier.
At times, when I need a car for the airport I opt for car services over Lyft or taxis - I deleted Uber years ago - because the workers seem to get treated better, although I pay twice as much. Overall, I think we should be paying more for many things if we are to guarantee the welfare of the people doing the work. And it's not just that, we need to enforce labor laws, as well as tax the wealthy and corporations making profits off employees back, those same investors that are giving little in terms of benefits.
I am not a Luddite, it is simply that that services that allow employees to be used as 'task rabbits' are harmful to workers' lives. Although older, I work as a software developer and my online profile looks like a 32-year old's according to various systems, but I've often worked as a 'contractor', and although it paid well, it provided no benefits and little security. That was fine for me. I made a decent six-figure income and was lucky enough to use my spouse's generous health benefits, but even then, one realized that it was partially a way for corporations to avoid liability.
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@James Igoe
I also avoid ride shares and pay the extra. My daughters, however, are early in their earning years and that additional cost is a big impact to their monthly budget. Unfortunately they are now so enmeshed, they see it as the norm as I am sure others of their generation do also.
7
@MHB - It's also an issue of security, and increased women bear to avoid mass transit. Ride services allow women to bypass subways and buses, and for many cost is an issue.
3
I don’t use Uber or any of its competitors. Life has enough challenges without putting myself in a car that has an unknown state of repair and a driver who is not supported by the company but is held responsible for anything that goes wrong.
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Don't forget the other major players: the compliant municipalities that allow Uber and its ilk to clog and damage roadways without making them pay their fair share. In addition, these companies are allowed to endlessly expand their 'workforce' which means lower pay for individual drivers, while still boosting corporate's take.
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Here is a person who has had literally their entire life to get an education, develop a career, and make choices that would put them in an economically advantage position. Instead they chose to be a simple cabdriver and an artist. No problem. But don’t complain now because technology has made the simple act of driving a commodity. If you wanted a better economic situation you need to constantly improve yourself and deliver more value. People like this that never improve themselves or their professional capability should not complain when evolution passes them by. It was true of many many professions from farmer to coal miner to secretary to manager. In 10 years even Uber drivers will likely not exist as self driving cars become more efficient. I feel sorry for his situation but it was his own choices that got him here. No one else is to blame, and certainly not Uber.
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@MR
Blaming exploited people for their situation is not acceptable now or ever! At one time we were a nation that enacted laws to protect the disadvantaged. Now laws are enacted that encourage this practice. It does not matter whether Democrats or Republicans are elected.
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@MR
Oh so in your world we don't actually need cab drivers, janitors, bus boys, servers, or retail clerks, or other positions filled by low-skilled laborers. You never use these services, right MR? Now it makes sense.
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@MR
"when evolution passes them by"
It's called capitalism, my man, and it's not the natural order of things. You blame the individual for his dilemma and we all know it's the system driving our people to their knees.
7
I'm sorry, but if Mr. Ashlock made art that people actually wanted, wouldn't he have a 'second' income? If Mr. Ashlock knew the terms of the agreement can he now complain about an agreement he willingly signed on with? If Mr. Ashlock lived outside of the 'radiation zone' of Silicon Valley wouldn't his income have better value? Wasn't Uber meant to be a part time 'gig'? Mr. Ashlock has made it his career something Uber never intended it to be. These are the most inoffensive questions I can post. I've got more.
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@Richard Mclaughlin
I think you shouldn't read this as a "how Mr. Ashlock spends his day/life" but how the IPO will make a small segment rich while in general the drivers of Uber get only a small portion of the pie. This gig economy - Uber, Uber Eats, et. props up people struggling against high rents, hourly jobs that don't pay enough, and lack of employment opportunities. Everyone who needs a gig economy job is economically vulnerable and therefore easy to exploit. I grew up at a time one middle-class income was all that was needed. Now 2-3 jobs are needed to just pay the rent. What kind of economy is that?
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@Richard Mclaughlin And you probably got those questions from Uber's lawyers and publicists, right?
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@pealass
Yes, and getting worse by the rich republicans making capitalism an epic failure...they must be so proud...
2
I find it odd that there are so many stories about Uber drivers being exploited by Uber, as though Uber’s stockholders are getting rich off their backs. Uber stockholders are getting rich off of exploiting INVESTORS. Uber is LOSING money on the drivers and the rides. Uber is losing billions of dollars year after year after year. If you don’t like Uber, don’t drive for them!
It really isn’t Uber’s fault that cab cartels sat pretty for decades with their regulatory capture and allowed an upstart to provide way better service at a lower price. It isn’t Uber’s fault that Mr Ashlock and his wife didn’t prepare adequately for retirement. It isn’t Uber’s fault that people are trying to act like Uber employees and use Uber as a full-time job - it could be really useful for people who want to make extra cash in their spare time.
Could Uber be better to drivers? Of course. No one wants to be managed by an algorithm, and Uber doesn’t have human managers because it’s cheap and this leads to infuriating cases of confusion and injustice. But again, this is not Gooogle or Facebook - Uber is bleeding money left and right, it’s not like they have the money and they just don’t want to spend it on humans. It’s amazing they can do as much and pay as much as they do now.
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@Big Cow In other words, Uber has crafted a business model that is fundamentally unsustainable even in the face of brutal exploitation of its drivers, creating a dynamic in which the drivers must be ever more brutalized. Which is precisely what's happened and is happening.
In other words, if you are right (and you probably are), the early investors in Uber are now preparing their great escapes, offloading their investment risk to whoever they can fool, just as they have spent the past several years offloading their other risks to drivers.
In other words, Travis Kalanick was right when he said that it was "existential" for Uber to achieve self-driving cars, throw all their drivers out of work, and offload the attendant problems to the government, society, and taxpayers. Existential enough to put test vehicles on the street that were manifestly unsafe.
Amazing what a company can do if it behaves that way.
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@Big Cow
This is ultimately OUR fault that we elected the lawmakers who allowed (or in too many cases encouraged and perhaps personally profited from) operations such as Uber to exist at all.
7
If Uber and Lyft drivers prepared financial statements for their businesses according to GAAP, they would all be losing their shirts. As the article pointed out, the only market innovation provided by ride-sharing companies is offloading all of the risk and costs onto the driver and taking a huge fee for having developed the computer app. These businesses will run out of qualified drivers and eventually scrounge for profits.
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@Mister Ed
They DO report according to GAAP (that is required for doing an IPO) and they ARE losing their shirts. But as long as re US has endless non-English-speaking immigrant labor to exploit, the ride sharing apps will never want for drivers. The NYT here has profiled an English speaker, but in the large cities where Uber and Lyft do most of their business, such drivers are a rarity. I’m not sure I’ve ever had a US citizen driver in New York.
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@Mister Ed
The drivers themselves ought to develop their own app and run it like a co-op. There's no reason for the owners to be taking all the money. I'll bet that a co-op app run by the drivers for the drivers would be so attractive that Uber and Lyft would be hard pressed to find drivers.
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@Big Cow
How on earth would you know if a driver is a U.S. citizen or not? If you met me, could you magically tell if I'm a citizen? I do speak English ... but it sounds a bit odd, maybe an accent? Could I be "exploitable" labor?
Uber sells convenience and speed - a ride is just a click away - and transfers the value of the transaction from the actual ride to the hail.
If the hail isn't fast, the value is gone in Uber's world. But .... the economics of Uber make the software and the phone app the primary value, when in fact, no matter how easy the app is, it won't get you to the airport. A car and a driver do that.
The "gig economy" - the method by which Uber reduces the value of the actual ride and increases the value of the hailing app - is just an old fashioned idea that we did away with in unionization and labor law a century ago. It is piecework. Uber's innovation is to take piecework, which exploited workers by requiring unachievable speed of production to make a living, and combine it with the newer glory of the "independent contractor." Revenue goes to the app; costs, production, responsibility to provide value go to the driver, who has no benefits.
Frankly, the "gig economy" cries out for a union, which would change the dynamics of reward for value to match the actual delivery of value.
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Exactly right! The US is effectively, a capitalist free fire zone now. The ubers of the world depend on lobbying and a massive legal department to keep it that way
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@Cathy
Succinct and Helpful. TY!
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@Cathy I've been a UX/UI designer since the late 90s and have seen the rise of that specific class of "tech disruptors" that you've identified, since the early 00s. As an interface and (sometime) app designer, I've always reminded myself "anything that you can do on a phone, you can already do via some other modality. Just not as fast and instantly gratifying". No one but a select few executives and a handful of investors — not even the bulk of these company's design and R&D workforces — benefits.
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