Joseph was abused and beaten as a child, he did it to his children.... one of his children did it to others. It's a vicious cycle.... and leave profound scars...
2
The man is deceased. Let the MJ family live their lives in peace and treasure their memories of their son, brother and father. MJ was tried in a court and found innocent. What a sick curiosity people have who guzzle the exploitation of a generous kind dead man.
2
The fact that Leaving Neverland only shows one side of the story despite lasting four hours should raise questions about the journalistic integrity of the director. By definition, a documentary should verify information before validating it.
Michael Jackson is no longer here to defend himself and there are no laws protecting the deceased from defamation or slander. The protagonists of Leaving Neverland have repeatedly lied under oath and are still suing Jackson's estate for hundreds of millions of dollars. Money has always been the motive behind allegations against Jackson. Robson even requested to have his lawsuit under seal to avoid making it public. So much for giving a platform to victims of sexual abuse by seeking justice.
Anyone who spends four hours watching this movie could also spend ten minutes or less learning about a few facts that were deliberately ignored: https://medium.com/@justhoughts/leaving-neverland-debunked-in-10-minutes-or-less-35d2017469ba.
5
It is interesting that so many people who are disappointed or outraged by renewed allegations of pedophilia against Jackson complain that, "Michael is dead and cannot defend himself."
He would not be able to defend himself if he were still alive! He admitted to sleeping with a 13 year-old boy in his bed in this interview with Bashir! He characterized it as an act of love! What sexually active, non-pedophile adult would choose to spend his or her nights sleeping with a 13 year old? Think about how you would view it if a full grown man, perhaps your child's swim team coach, expressed a desire to sleep with your 13 year-old daughter, as an act of love. There is no excuse for failing to see this behavior for what it was. Using the victims' denials of their abuse, offered at the time Michael was still alive, to justify one's own denials of what should be obvious, is just pathetic ego protection on the part of Michael's fans.
The MJ defenders illustrate, powerfully, Mark Twain's observation, that it is easier to fool people, than to later convince them they have been fooled. And think about why that is. They felt good about themselves for believing such a thing as innocence existed. Nobody gets a self esteem boost from realizing he or she has enabled a pedophile.
16
Who needs a judicial system any more? With the mainstream media as our infallible guide and thought leader, we just watch a movie where ‘reality’ is constructed for us. everything is presented as if it is exactly real and true. Who dares to question a slick movie, a 20 minute interview or carefully constructed media ‘realities’? It must be true—it’s on TV, and everyone believes it, why? Because it has entered our consciousness and it is now TRUTH. What a relief not to have the burden of an inquiring mind.
3
I think this movie is a shameful exploitation of the fame of MJ. Criticizing him after he's been dead so long. What were these accusers saying when he was alive?
4
What strikes me is the protection offered to accused pedophiles and other criminals by their celebrity. There seems to be a very large subset of their “fans” who will tolerate, rationalize or excuse any offense. I think celebrity is distinct from popularity in the sense that popularity may wane quite quickly. Those with true celebrity status are able avoid responsibility and are assisted in avoiding responsibility for any act. The vast amounts of money involved must play a role, but that is not what truly matters. I doubt if many of today’s technological billionaires could survive credible charges of pedophilia. It is no accident that individuals outside the entertainment industry aspire to celebrity more than popularity.
10
The documentary was very disturbing and showed how systematic and diabolical MJ really was. I did not know how deep it really was until I saw this. I was surprised that the parents were so naive but he was a force to be reckoned with. I am glad these two victims were able to find someone and build a life, that is a great thing. I think MJ's life was no picnic growing up which is not an excuse but he was probably sexually abused by his father but was never able to deal with it, because he his father was such a force to be reckoned with. Kudos to the people who made this documentary happen, it is a good warning video for all parents to watch.
8
"Why didn't they come forward earlier?" people often say when victims of sexual abuse finally get the strength, courage, and perspective required to go public. That seems like such a naïve question to me. "Finding Neverland" provides some definitive answers:
1) Children are groomed to love their abusers, and are taught to believe that sexual acts are expressions of love. They don't believe they're being "abused." The special secret they share with the adults who are seducing them only strengthens the bond between them. As Jackson said so often, other people just don't understand.
2) One of our strongest drives is to normalize things that disrupt our lives. We fear the unknown, especially as children of limited experience, so, above all, we crave the familiar. Whatever that is, to us it becomes "normal."
3) Predators tell their prey that if they tell anyone, the consequences will be dire beyond all imagination. They will go to jail, their parents and loved ones will be taken away, they will hurt and alienate everyone they care about. They'll never get to go "home" again.
4) The relationship between a child and an adult predator is a mixture of shame and complicity. Reason says that if there's nothing "wrong" with it, if it's not your fault, then there's nothing to be ashamed of. But we don't always live in a rational state of mind.
The insidious thing about "abuse" is that, as many say, the worst part is the stigma and condemnation they suffer after they speak the truth.
12
I'm looking at the photo of Bashir and Jackson. What I see here is a man who is dealing with 2 autoimmune diseases, with oil which you can see evidence of in the photo--his skin color has been radically depigmented by vitiligo and he has been dealing with it by using make up and facial tattoos on his eyebrows and lips. He is holding an umbrella because lupus makes you sensitive to the sun and liable to develop skin cancer. He is probably wearing a wig because of the serious scalp burn he suffered in the Pepsi commercial. What I see is a man struggling with these illnesses, with his own child abuse from his past, with extraordinary fame, with recovering his reputation from the 1993-4 civil suit filed by the Chandlers, a black man who was relentlessly attacked on so many fronts and who has even today never been found guilty of a crime, except in the eyes of the media and the gullible public--trial by media is not a real trial now, is it? I see a human being who was called a freak, who was bullied for wanting to be white, who was falsely accused. I see a man who I am proud of as an American. Proud of his message, his body of work, his advocacy for the planet and for humane treatment of animals and children, a man who donated $33 million to charity and who formed Heal the World Foundation. A man who was destroyed by false accusations. A man who has three children who now have to deal with this in the news, and a daughter who tried to commit suicide because of all the pressure .
5
@aldebaran
Yes, he was all of those things. But sadly, also a pedophile who very deliberately manipulated children. You really do need to watch the documentary.
23
In answer to many comments blasting my comments that I do not believe the accusers, "NO. I did not watch the documentary and I won't."
I do not watch fox so-called news either. I do not listen to the big fat lying man on radio or his hate radio brethren. I do not read Breitbart supposed "news" or the national enquirer.
I suggest that if you do you stop. They all feed the hate-anger-fear-racism destruction that is tearing this country apart.
I do not hear the same viral outrage over the owner of the cheating patriots football team going to sex-slave parlors in Florida. Why is that? Is it any coincidence that suddenly Michael Jackson - who is dead and cannot defend himself - is suddenly back in the spotlight?
I don't think so.
4
Comparing 4 hours of extremely detailed, raw, painful statements by two victims of child sexual abuse to right wing media is not right of you to do. One has nothing to do with the other. Your blind adoration of Jackson is actually no different from conservative media’s blind adoration of Trump.
14
I watched the show last night and I find that I believe these two men. I cannot say that I understand their reticence to come forward after all these years, nor can I understand how/why they felt some need to "protect" Michael Jackson, but I do believe that what they claim happened... happened.
Their stories are believable; plus, Jackson's behavior was so egregious -- like calling young boys everyday and talking to them for hours, sending faxes with "cutesy" notes daily, having boys in bed with him, the in-you-face lying (he claimed to have only two minor cosmetic surgeries), and his willingness to drop/exclude people when he no longer had an interest -- does not paint a good picture.
If you have not seen the show, watch it. I simply cannot dismiss these allegations. Nor can I shuffle these two men off as money-grubbers. No. Not this time.
8
We've had sexual abuse in my family, and the documentary shows how that works so successfully. It's all about the "grooming" which is manipulation, threats, talk of love, to a child's mind that is not fully developed to accept skepticism. This "Leaving Neverland" is a landmark documentary. It reveals how Jackson (and other abusers) convince their victims of one story while convincing surrounding family of another. My family member kept her abuse a secret for 15 years, lying to therapists and others. Finally, the #metoo movement gave her the courage to speak the truth. There are clearly behavior phenomenons associated with this that we're just beginning to learn about and understand. We have to be open to this education. Living in ignorance means these terrible life-changing attacks will continue to poison our families and communities.
11
Joe Vogel describes the Jackson 1995 song "Tabloid Junkie" as “a full-fledged indictment of the news media and its increasing penchant for sensationalism, exploitation, and misinformation. Critics have typically reviewed such songs as examples of Jackson’s persecution complex and self-pity, but such a dismissal misses a more important fact: . . . Jackson, in this rather ambitious track, is singing truth to power on an issue with relevance far beyond his personal life.
The song begins with the authoritative voice of a newscaster mindlessly repeating tabloid fodder as fact. It is a sort of postmodern, Orwellian moment in which the mainstream media becomes the controller and manipulator of its audience’s social reality. Truth is irrelevant. What matters is entertainment, ratings, and a drug-like addiction to endless spectacle. Facts are whatever is printed or broadcast on TV to a passive, noncritical audience. In the song, as the newscaster speaks, keyboards begin typing frantically, illustrating how quickly stories (whether true or false, important or unimportant) are consumed, copied, and spread.”
The chorus is meant to wake us up:
“And you don't have to read it,
And you don't have to eat it,
To buy it is to feed it,
So why do we keep foolin' ourselves
Just because you read it in a magazine
Or see it on the TV screen
Don't make it factual
Though everybody wants to read all about it”
1
Michael Jackson did not present as a man but as a child, a sprite, a superhuman, feminine, gentle, vulnerable, magical, and a victim.
It is no surprise that the Robsons, the Safechucks, the Jacksons, and many fans didn't/don't believe it happened. It doesn't square with the conventional image of pedophilia.
8
In instances where caregivers or strong influences are the abusers, the child victim is inevitably going to exhibit Stockholm syndrome. This is why it takes victims so long to step up as they spend most of their lives trying to process whether they are letting their abuser down by speaking the truth.
MJ was a serial predator and all his victims have had to go through the process of understanding what they experienced and why he was wrong. This cannot happen while he had influence over them. These victims had to move ahead and learn what "normal" was before they could comprehend that MJ's abuse was not normal.
8
After watching the documentary, I had far more questions about the intentions and excuses of the mothers than I did of Michael Jackson and the hideous misfortune he bestowed upon his two victims.
How could these mothers let their child sleep with a grown man and how could they not ask real questions about the overall intentions and needs of Michael Jackson?
Something was missing in the rationale of both mothers.
For example, did they not notice any small change in the behavior of their children relative to what was happening behind those closed doors?
How can they be so clueless?
This was repetitive sexual abuse that was happening in plain view.
Regardless, either this was a case of stage motherhood driven to an absolute extreme, which was clearly facilitated by Jackson's repetitive "grooming" of great riches ahead for all (through their "miracle" child and how they were all family now) or they chose to completely ignore the ramifications of their own obliviousness, because, after all, this was not just any man; this was Michael Jackson and how can you see our friend Michael Jackson as something evil?
In other words, both mothers chose not to question what was happening behind those closed doors. They just told themselves it was "playing", even though this was a grown man acting like he was predatory Peter Pan, with Neverland serving as a backdrop for the seduction of male children.
Horrid story all around.
4
This excellent article by researcher and academic Linda Woods puts the new film's allegations up against the facts.
https://medium.com/@lrixwoods/the-new-lynching-of-michael-jackson-dan-reeds-leaving-neverland-may-in-fact-leave-blood-on-2a9e2193f818
1
@aldebaran Ummm that article is on a content publishing site. It's a blog...not a researched and vetted piece of journalism.
10
@Tom H. where do you think are researched and vetted pieces of journalism about this subject?
3
Excellent link. I have not watched the movie nor do I intend to watch it. I am convinced that the two so-called victims made their claims against the Estate of MJ two times and lost in court. MJ's Estate or heirs should sue these two men for libel.
1
Of the many children in Jackson’s life only three made accusations of improper conduct during his lifetime. Jordan Chandler was the first to make that claim in 1993 but never under oath in a deposition or in court; he refused to testify when he had the opportunity to do so in 1994 and again in 2005. (For an excellent, in-depth discussion of the 1993 allegations, see www.michaeljacksonallegations.com. )
Gavin Arvizo testified in the 2005 trial that he had been molested on two occasions, and a third boy, Jason Francia, the son of a former Jackson employee, testified he was touched three times in the groin area outside his clothes during tickling games over a period of three years. Only Francia and Arvizo were willing to testify to inappropriate sexual contact in spite of enormous efforts from 1993 to 2005 to locate other victims by two District Attorneys, the FBI, and the media, in spite of the thousands of children who visited Neverland, and in spite of Jackson’s personal friendships with individual children, all thoroughly investigated. These two accusers had their day in court, but the jury found Michael not guilty after a 5-month trial.
Given Jackson’s wealth and the likelihood such accusations could, and did, result in large settlements, it is important to investigate individuals making such claims. The same is true for the current accusers.
1
Read an open letter from a family with kids who spent a lot of time with Jackson and have posted this open letter about their experience.
https://schleiter-family.com/?fbclid=IwAR2CzU0oxVVsj2cMkTUibxde4bqce8fpr8XIvQv62HND3-bXZPsb-uI1n0w
1
A group of dedicated Jackson researchers spent a huge amount of time putting together a website where people can get information based on court documents--meaning, verifiable information brought up in a court of law. They have also made a YT video about this film.
The website is www.michaeljacksonallegations.com
2
Jackson’s bond with children had a great deal to do with his own childhood: he began performing and rehearsing at age 5 and reached stardom at age 9. Thrust into the world of show business to become a professional performer and family breadwinner at this young age, he missed the carefree life most children experience. He writes about watching children playing outside the studio when he went to record: “I’d stare at them in wonder—I couldn’t imagine such freedom, such a carefree life—and wish more than anything that I had that kind of freedom, that I could walk away and be like them. . . . When you’re young and you’re working, the world can seem awfully unfair.”
Michael was often away from home on tour, stuck in hotel rooms, with few friends and playmates apart from his siblings. His world was the world of adults. Once he grew up with control over his life, having friendships with children helped him recover the childhood experiences he had sacrificed. He especially enjoyed water fights and hide-and-seek. After purchasing Neverland, he had friendships with fun-loving children, open spaces, freedom, having fun, playing games, and being carefree, the very opposite of the life he lived as a child performer. He told Oprah about his love for children and animals-- he found them easier to trust than adults because they didn’t want anything from him. Adults controlled Jackson when he was a child star. Children and animals did not do that, so he preferred their company.
2
@aldebaran Poor Michael. but it's no reason to abuse children....
4
The PBS Frontline program "Tabloid Truth" suggests the media in 1993-94 promoted child sex abuse accusations against Jackson despite the lack of evidence simply because scandal sells, and audiences enjoy watching a celebrity fall from the pinnacle of fame into the depths of the gutter. Such a spectacle may satisfy a need for vengeance for wrongs we have suffered, allowing us to vicariously participate in aggression while safe from harm. This trait of human nature has a long history. In the last days of the Roman Empire, crowds enjoyed watching horrible deaths in the Coliseum. In the rush to condemn Jackson, the media committed what Charles Thomson called “One of the Most Shameful Episodes in Journalistic History.” It encouraged the public to participate in and enjoy a mass bullying, a vicarious stoning, a trial by media for profit, and to disregard the foundation of our justice system—innocent till proven guilty.
2
@aldebaran
Didn't watch the documentary, huh? The people who worshipped Jackson are desperate for anything, literally anything -- to justify his actions.
Please watch the film.
7
@aldebaran It's scary to see how much power the media have.
2
As youngsters, many of us participated in sleepovers with our friends where we stayed up late and talked, talked, talked into the wee hours, threw pillows, joked, told stories, ate popcorn, and had fun. When Michael was touring with his older brothers, they did horse around a lot in hotel rooms and corridors but primarily they were there to work and perform. Outside of the family, Jackson had few friends, let alone friends his age. When he got older, he enjoyed sleepover experiences with his nieces and nephews as well as his young friends. They would watch movies, eat popcorn and stay up late. The parents of these kids were also friends with Michael and gave their permission.
The media planted suspicions in the minds of the public that crimes were being committed during the sleepovers, even though the activities themselves were not harmful or criminal. Just because someone does something that is not part of a prescribed pattern of behavior or dress, why is it automatically considered sinister or criminal? Adults who as kids had participated in the sleepovers testified under oath in 2005 (Wade Robson, his sister Chantal, Corey Feldman, Macaulay Culkin, Brett Barnes) and all affirmed that nothing inappropriate happened. Frank and Eddie Cascio and their sister, who had known Jackson from childhood, declared that during their close friendships nothing sexual took place, and Emmanuel Lewis said the same.
1
With all due respect, but please tell me --where were the parents?
In all of these situations that is always my first question.
4
@Yolanda Watch the documentary. They are in it and tell their sides as well. But they were there, and were protective of their children. Michael Jackson made sure that he earned their trust over time. None of this happened over night - he groomed these little boys and their families.
4
@niffer
thank you, I will watch the documentary--I have not as yet
I re-watched the Living With Michael Jackson special, and it was still horrifying. Michael's worst memories of his father's violence was not dad beating him, but dad beating the brothers because they weren't as good as Michael. And remember, his defenders are the ones who are still living off Michael Jackson's reputation, so of course they want to deny wrong-doing.
8
@vandalfan That is simply not true. The worst experiences were of his own abuse and humiliation. This is made clear in the Bashir film. As the star performer, the source of the success of the group, he was nevertheless thrown up against walls, punched in the back while being held dangling upside down, pushed in the face, slapped in front of fans, beaten with a belt, whipped with extension cords, verbally abused repeatedly with criticisms about his "big nose" and so on and on. At one point in the Bashir film, while speaking of the abuse--his own abuse--he breaks down, covers his face with his hands, and can't speak.
1
If grown men can still bring suit against the Catholic Church and prevail, then James and Wade should join forces and bring a suit against Jackson's estate under the same legal premise. Right?
These boys were conned into believing that Michael's seduction was okay. As children, they had no power to know differently, when in fact, Michael was committing lewd acts with them and emotionally abusing them.
Money won't give them their childhood back, but it's the least the Jackson family can do to make reparations for the pain and suffering that is still occurring. It might also send a message to other perpetrators who think fame can shield them from the law.
If our current legal system can't help James and Wade, then laws need to change, including holding testimony of minors against them in cases of abuse where new evidence can prove that their testimony was staged and given under duress.
84
I found their stories credible and horrifying. But they did not seem victimized. It was eerie. I don't understand the motivation for participating in the documentary. I'm missing something.
2
@m983678 Often, reclaiming the truth of what happened by talking about it can be an important part of the healing process. Both Robson and Safechuck seem to be emphasizing that the secretiveness about what happened was isolating and a big part of the psychological abuse they endured. I see the documentary as a cathartic act to try to let go of that so that they can reclaim their lives, make peace with what happened, and move on from it.
19
In the 1960s, science fiction fan, coin expert, and pederast Walter Breen—Google him—was banned by those running the 1964 World Science Fiction Convention because of his actions with children.
This plunged the science fiction world into war between those for and against the convention's actions. It was argued that he had not (yet) been convicted of any crime, and was innocent until proven guilty.
I was one of those who defended him.
Only years later did I realize that he tried to seduce me when I was 14. I was the smoking gun that proved that he was not safe around children.
Breen later married writer Marion Zimmer Bradley and ended up molesting her children and still others. He died in Chino State Prison on April 27th 1993, having been convicted of child molestation.
Looking back, I realize I defended Breen and suppressed the memories of what he tried. In light of this, the actions of Jackson's defenders—who were indeed molested—resonate with me. They're completely believable.
(The above is not private knowledge; I've written about it before.)
33
One thing I've noticed through the years about all the allegations I've heard against Michael, all the accusers are boys. MJ always says he loves children, so that word includes girls as well as boys, but, it appears that all those he got close with boys. I would think during his tours he probably had some young girls as singers and dancers that toured with him, but he always was attracted to the boys, so that tells you something right there. I'm sure there were many little girls that would've loved to spend the night at Neverland and maybe they did, but have we heard of any females coming forward and speaking about his sexual misconduct? A grown man that entertains young boys at his home for overnight visits and such, that's very obvious what the grown man's intentions are.
16
@ShirleyW Not as obvious as the intentions of a grown man who asks little girls to spend the night with him in his bed!
2
@ShirleyW Boys as pals, there also were girls around. And he loved his daughter Paris very much.
2
Truly chilling. Watching "Leaving Neverland", I was struck by Jackson's masterful "grooming" skills. Was this just beginner's luck, good pedofile instincts, or....behavior perfected over time? And what about the myriad private and secure "trysting" places designed into his home? Is it possible the whole concept of Neverland was to be one gigantic white panel van with ice cream signs on the side??
26
Michael Jackson, Jeffrey Epstein. People with power and money are enabled to pursue their worst desires. Both destroyed the lives of young people by turning them into objects of adult sexual attention. What's sickening, mainly, is that they both got away with it.
10
@NineMuses Well, sort of. Legally Jackson got off the hook, but at the time of death, he couldn't even sleep without an surgical anesthetic (as opposed to a sleeping pill). That out Macbeth's Macbeth.
11
I feel that the spell Michael Jackson held over so many is similar to the spell Trump holds over his base. When will we be willing to see reality?
17
"I'm starting with the man in the mirror,
I'm asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you want to make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself, and then make a change."
Michael Jackson sang but couldn't make the change himself...
9
The victim-shaming that people like Marlon Jackson throw -- it angers me: “If Neverland was so horrifying” for Robson and Safechuck, “why would you keep going back?”
Because: As a child, you do not understand what is happening to you. You do not know what "abuse" is, and you feel emotionally tied/beholden to this adult. Maybe Marlon Jackson and all of Jackson's defenders should read up on what abuse survivors go through - and how it messes with their minds.
35
Not sure why my comment from two days ago never got posted - all I was saying was that Michael Jackson obviously is able to lie, which we saw or should have seen when he told Martin Bashir that he had just a couple of minimal plastic surgeries. So if he can lie about his face, who's to say he can't lie about what he did to the boys? If you watch the Bashir interview, he's practically accusing Bashir of being crazy for even suggesting he did anything to his features. I mean, come on - that's very troubling.
8
@C Those were tabloid questions. Why not ask about his music, poetry and ideas about the world? He had travelled the world many times over at that time. Nearly every celebrity has extensive plastic surgery. Would I question them about it? He had two nose jobs, and what was the point? His skin was whiter than white because he had vitiligo and the spots were covered with make up.
1
Michael Jackson best work was joyous and it doesn't square at all with the evil he perpetrated. This mystery is impossible to explain, but it's true. I feel for his defenseless victims. He passed on and multiplied the horrible damage that was done to him as a young boy. That pain outweighs the good he did with his music. Even if we can still enjoy it, the price was way too high.
10
@Mr. Fedorable Allegedly perpetrated.
2
@Mr. Fedorable Allegedly perpetrated. It might be possible to explain with the possibility that he was innocent of what is said.
3
What I remember from the Bashir interview, all these years, is that Jackson said (I’m paraphrasing) that all of his songs were inspired by his love for children. If you want your blood to run cold, look up the lyrics to IN THE CLOSET off of Dangerous. I made that link then, and it makes me physically ill to read those lyrics now.
12
When I think of someone who respectfully, wholeheartedly, unselfishly gave themselves to the improvement of the lives of children, I think of Fred Rogers (Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood). Through all the years and all the children he worked closely with - not one whiff of controversy. Fred Rogers would never have used children as props during interviews, invited them into his bed, or faxed love letters to them. It seems odd to compare Jackson to Rogers - but Jackson’s defenders say he only had the kids’ best interest at heart, that he only loved them purely. If you want a true example of that, look to Fred Rogers.
44
@JR Michael Jackson was very powerful and high profile and helped many children around the world. That was the difference.
3
This is as much a statement about our farcical criminal "justice" system as it is Michael Jackson. A lying tongue lasts only a moment ...
1
Who names their kid Blanket? Michael Jackson should have gone to jail just for that.
29
And dangles him (or whichever of his kids it was) over a balcony railing..,
3
I am a Michael Jackson defender, researcher, and writer. After his death, I spent 5 years studying all I could about him--reading books, court transcripts, blogs, articles, watching interviews, etc. Why did I do all this? Because I wanted to know the truth. In a Karl Popperian way, I believed if I looked hard enough I could find it. I did. Michael Jackson was not a pedophile. He was not gay. The ease with which his reputation and accomplishments are shredded into bite sized pieces by the media and consumed whole by viewers appalls me. The acceptance of unverified allegations to smear and destroy a man of such intelligence, artistry, and basic goodness appalls me. Read "Honoring Child Spirit," by Rabbi Schumuley Boteach, Michael's spiritual advisor who arranged his Oxford Union Speech. Jackson reveals to Boteach his deep regard and appreciation for children, a regard that was not sexual. He believed adults had much to learn from children, that children could show us solutions to world problems. The book will open your eyes. Jackson's lifelong dream was to enhance the status, protection, and respect given to children. The allegations struck Jackson in the very place he wanted most to make social change--validation of children's vital importance, recognition of their much needed talents and gifts. He believed that children could show us the way out of this broken world.The allegations broke him in so many ways and made it impossible for him to deliver that message.
4
You clearly haven’t seen the film. You can do all the research and maybe he had interests in making the children’s lives better some times but that doesn’t mean he wasn’t capable of doing what he did in his bedroom !
There were NO parents present which boggles my mind so you don’t know what truly was going on as children are not mature enough to understand everything so you won’t find any material negating his books and material.
I disagree with your point of view.
42
@Stephanie one of the greatest impediments to human development both individually and as a species is ignorance. The amount of ignorance about Jackson is staggering, especially given his fame and the many sources available. I recommended a specific book, I spoke of 5 years of research, I myself have written a great deal, but the main stream media, with its vast platform, chooses not to give people the information they need, and I can’t do it in the small space in a comment forum. People need to look deeper on their own. Please don’t judge in haste. Michael Jackson was innocent. He is a great man and Americans should be proud of him and hang their heads in shame for what they did to him. Don’t believe everything people say in the media—look deeper. “Just because you read it in a magazine or see it on a TV screen, don’t make it factual.” (Tabloid Junkie lyrics). Think logically—why does a so-called child molester have so many children in his or her life who say nothing sexual happened? Why did these 2 change their stories after he died and his Estate made huge amounts of money? Coincidence? People need to think critically. If not, democracy is in peril. The whole project of USA is built on reasoned and educated analysis. Are we capable of that? I don’t see it in this case.
2
@aldebaran You weren't in those bedrooms with an adult man who slept with other people's children for years. You simply were not there and cannot attest to what did or did not happen. Your blind allegiance to a legend is somewhat easy to fathom in the face of his fame, but in reality, genius is often backed by a real human being with flaws. I have known and worked with some famous people (Chuck Berry comes to mind), and none of them set some shining example of a hero -- they're merely human. As a father, Jackson should have known never to sequester himself alone with someone else's child for nights on end. The testimony of Neverland staff and of his accusers in the film should could cause anyone with half an ounce of intelligence to realize that something seriously wrong was going on.
6
Bottom line, it just all so very sad. This topic is bringing out a lot of issues for a lot of people who have been dealing with their own childhood trauma while trying to maintain a normal life. Who will be held accountable for this injustice? MJ's legal team (past and present)? His Family (all of them)? Sony Music (they had to have known)? Seriously, who is going to be prosecuted for this perpetual act of violence? Probably no one.....
4
Why didn’t the accusers describe the marks on Michaels private’s. Isn’t that something the director would want to support the two alleged victims?
4
For years I worked as a therapist treating child survivors of sexual abuse with some of the most talented therapists I will ever know. We worked with the innocents who live in the shadow of secrecy. The cultural secrecy around child sexual abuse - the willingness to look away - is the problem. We are all at fault, not just the poor parents of victims who got duped. When was the last time you talked openly about how to spot sex offenders? It's not fun party talk. But we avoid it at what cost? Your friend who is a single mother is dating a guy who has no friends and hates his mother? You should ask her if that seems fishy. If your child has a coach who charms you and wants to spend extra time on your kid, your "uh-oh" feelings are there to tell you not to do it. Listen to them. If you know a neighbor who gives you the creeps, don't tell yourself you're being judgmental and override your instincts. And how much does the average person know about grooming? Let's put it this way - if a sex offender wants to get to a child and they have access, they can. That child is totally helpless against their well-honed grooming techniques. It is up to ALL of us to speak up when our instincts say that someone is off. Extra-charming, is OFF, people. Following our intuition is our only hope as a species to fight back against the sociopaths who do an outsized amount of damage in the service of propping up their deeply damaged psyches.
42
In this MeToo era of guilt upon mere accusation, it is unsurprising to see these latest accusers of Michael Jackson go public.
However, America is also a land of intense celebrity worship. I am surprised that persons who have been worshipers for decades would now turn on the object of their worship because of 2 accusers who are making a type of accusation that has been made many times before and that has been the central charge in a criminal trial.
I have never been a fan of Jackson, nor have I ever had any appreciation of his music. I believed all along from the ample evidence presented over the years that Jackson was one really messed up person, including weird sexual behavior. Consequently, these latest accusations receive nothing more than a "ho-hum, what else is new" response from me. But since Jackson's worshipers closed their eyes to the obvious for decades, it is surprising they decide to open them now.
4
@Errol
It's not 'guilt on mere accusation' sir. Go see "leaving neverland", then do a modicum of research on how many families Jackson Paid Off not to report him or press charges against him for sexual acts with CHILDREN.
9
@Paul P. Civil suits can be settled between the parties involved, but in criminal cases, where a government atty brings charges, paying anyone off or trying to do it, is a criminal offense. In the 93 case, the 14 year old kid and his family destroyed any chance of a criminal case by refusing to cooperate once their civil suit (brought by a private atty ) was settled. They were perfectly able to keep the $ from the settlement AND cooperate to put Jackson behind bars but chose not to. This is true in any civil suit settlement. It does not prevent a criminal case, criminal charges.
2
@Errol MeToo isn't about guilt upon 'mere' accusation, it is about being willing to believe victims of sexual abuse. 'Ho hum' is not an appropriate response to stories about an adult man asking a 7-year-old to perform oral sex, or about an adult offering a child jewelry in exchange for sexual favours. The documentary shows in painful detail just how much that psychologically affected those boys into adulthood.
The vile actions of Michael Jackson are well documented and can not be ignored. But many others are complicit in enabling all of that including the childrens families.
Today we're hearing about sexual assault of children separated from guardians along the southern border, and that our government agencies can not fully account for the number or location of these children.
Are these children being trafficked by bad actors in government and industry?
And what of the Catholic Church? If Michael Jackson's music is to be banned from the airwaves and squelched from memory, should not the Catholics receive the same treatment?
10
I used to be such a fan of Jackson - it is easy to see how one could be dazzled. But for many years now I’ve known in my heart of hearts that he was a gay paedophile. So many things that screamed for attention but no-one was listening. The accusations and payoffs. The assistant who talked about the many locked doors and bells several years ago. The fact that Lisa Presley talked about his needing her to dress up as a Boy Scout (and of course the fact that the marriage was clearly doomed), hearing an account some time ago about Jackson giving alcohol to youngsters and calling it ‘Jesus juice’ and there being some police evidence which was suppressed of his abuse. His self harming behaviour through plastic surgery made it clear that he was deeply mentally unwell. I read that Male paedophiles often come from large families of older boys (without evidence of sibling abuse). His true nature has been screaming at us for years but we couldn’t or wouldn’t see it. I feel so desperately sorry for his children whether they are biologically his (highly doubtful) or not. The impact on them will be further traumatising.
8
At the time all of this was happening I was in my late teens/early 20s and too naive to believe the kids that came forward.
Kudos to the kids that dared to come forward ! And for Michael to say to the kids that people are out to get him - I can only imagine how many parents found out and he settled by giving them money to go away !
He was a disgusting man and if this happened today with all these iPhone cameras etc he would be caught so quickly !
He clearly targeting lower-middle class families or foreign families where it was impossible to hire good lawyers or know how to defend themselves.
He also targeted smart, talented children and only did what he did to destroy their future mentally ! Just like what had happened to him !
Sad that anyone believes Michael !
7
I watched all 4 hours of the HBO documentary in stunned silence that became anger. Wade and James are so very brave to speak out now, confirming what many people could easily see during the 2005 criminal trial. The victim's families rightfully should be ashamed of being seduced by the celebrity, trading their young sons' innocence for limo rides and weekends at Neverland. All of Jackson's sick lies, perpetuated by his own family of greedy enablers, have been finally laid bare.
28
Wondering whether the new documentary and all the discussion would be possible if both Michael and his father weren't dead.
2
I am really struck by the need Jackson's defenders have to NOT understand the accuser's stories. It's all deflection and boilerplate nonsense like "they were in it for the money." I suspect that such people are unable to actually watch the documentary, because once you have seen it, you really can't hide behind those sorts of vague defenses.
22
@QTCatch10 I don't want to take a movie at face value and without corroborating evidence immediately brand a man who did so many good things as a monster. I also don't want to be pressured to conform to a majority opinion.
2
this is terrifying, and I havent yet have the courage the watch the documentary. yet patterns are similar in all the stories of abuse. It is time that our society comes to term (and ends) this celebrity myth. Enough! If it had been just a regular Joe telling everyone he was in bed with children, the person would have end up in jail. Jackson, like other celebrities who have abused, are somehow still excused.
11
This shows just how much farther we have to go before we are a just and equal society. Jackson gets the benefit of doubt because he is famous and rich and the accusers are males. Had it been females that were abused he would have been thrown in prison. Our society only sees one gender, female as victims. Males are either liars or were asking for/deserved it.
It is time to start seeing abuse and abusers as genderless. It is also time to have the legal and mental health services to support the abused so the abuse cycle can end.
5
@skramsv If his accusers had been women the documentary would never have been made. Just look at Jeffrey Epstein.
11
My deepest hope is that this film will be seen by many and will be a stepping off place for people to begin facing their own histories of abuse. I can imagine someone turning to a safe person in their life and saying, “I have something to tell you.” I think some survivors will begin the process of therapy or find a survivor’s support group. These two men are examples of bravery, as is Oprah. She, too, is a survivor of sexual abuse. They show that with time, awareness and self-examination healing is possible.
The damage Michael Jackson did far overshadows his contribution to contemporary music. A superstar on stage and a pedophile behind the scenes. He was a very disturbed man.
16
I didn’t understand the attraction to Jackson. I was so disturbed by his self mutilation that I could rarely watch, or even listen, to him. He appeared to be disturbed. That alone would have kept me, or mine, from being anywhere near him.
30
I believe the survivors.
34
It is important to stress that this putative sex abuse case is unlike virtually any other. For the vast majority of cases victims fear not being believed and don't want to have to fight for the truth. In the Jackson case "victims" were encouraged to come forward and strongly encouraged to do so. Yet these boys (as well as others) defiantly denied any wrongdoing on Jackson's part.
Moreover, the fact that Jackson gave the interview in 2003 where he acknowledges sharing his bed with children does not speak to a guilty mind. Put differently, Jackson knew he did nothing wrong and had nothing to hide.
Additionally, we cannot elide the fact that the subjects of "Leaving Neverland" are now suing Jackson's estate. A lawsuit which was thrown out. "Neverland" has to be read as public relations campaign to win on appeal.
3
@John Curious if you watched the show and Oprah's show. I found them completely credible. Their pain is very clear. They would have to be the world's best actors to do what they did, and I don't believe they are. Curious to know if you are a hard core fan of his.
33
@John this is actually not true. Survivors of abuse and violence behave exactly like that, especially if they were abused as children. Children are told that it is love, and they will never betray an abuser, not even when they grow up. it takes years of therapy and help to come to terms with the abuse.
26
@John
After seeing part 1 and seeing the pictures, videos, faxes, and so on it was crystal clear that Michael Jackson abused children. I also saw a man that was profoundly mentally ill and most likely severely abusing drugs.
I was sexually and physically abused by my mother and her many boyfriends from at least 3 to age 15 when I left. The stories of these two men were similar to mine and other abused kids. Here is what else was similar...normalcy, being abused was normal. My mother's boyfriends told me they loved me and knew I loved them and sex was how you express love. The beatings came because spilling water on the floor was evil. Everyone grew up like that, right?
It wasn't until I was on my own that I learned abuse was not normal even though nearly all of my childhood friends had similar stories. I was in my 30s when the Jackson trials hit the news and remembered the sexual abuse in my early childhood. The 13 year old's account triggered these memories.
Now in my 50s, I can talk about the abuse. I still struggle to feel shock and outrage because deep in my mind abuse is normal. I counted this by being aware of the excuses and lies told to make abuse seem good and normal. Here too Michael checked every box. I also do not hesitate to call authorities when something doesn't look right.
22
In the past, entertainers whose images took a hit were usually able to rise above the chaos (Fatty Arbuckle excluded). This is a different time and a different place and a far more egregious set of offenses. The whole Michael Jackson question boils down to this. Can the public separate the man from his music? Record sales would lean in the direction of the affirmative.
3
Lol what? Record sales? What was that last year like 30.
Thank you for this piece. You focus on a key insight, which is that abuse of this kind is very complex. There are layers of love, misguided love, and cruelty. Sadly, both Michael and the young men he abused were all victims. The two men profiled in 'Leaving Neverland' seem to have gained some sense of control of their lives and embarked on a process that one hopes will bring them peace. Michael, on the other hand, is culpable. I always felt this, starting with the accusations in 1990s, which, incredibly, he escaped. Michael was smart, rich and resourceful; if one knows that one has predatory tendencies, a smart, rich and resourceful person should have sought help from a professional instead of acting on those dangerous impulses, and extending abuse to another generation. Bravo to these men for being responsible; shame on Michael and his defenders for not.
32
Until recently (perhaps 10 years) young men who had been abused by priests were reluctant to come forward. They feared it would reflect on their masculinity and so stayed quiet.
Now we've grown the strength to shout the truth, stand by these victims and place the blame squarely where it belongs. It's time humanity cleaned up its act and we need to start with sexual abusers.
73
It is just impossible not to believe these young men. I felt terrible for them — and also for Macaulay Culkin, who has denied, denied, denied — but shows so many of the outward signs of trauma. The boys loved Michael so much, I wondered if some of their depression, even for the men as adults, was due to losing the gilded spot they had for so long as MJ’s lover/companion. It would be hard to impossible to match that excitement and rarified air; he was abusing them, but they loved him tremendously. No one asked how or if they mourned that irreplaceable loss, I guess because we know it’s abuse. James especially seems haunted. Michael’s own descent (sleeping aids, drugs, alcohol) might be tied to when he lost access to his boys when his lupus and vitiligo caused body changes, when the plastic surgery took most of his nose, when the scandals had everyone on alert and he’d lost the ability to be Peter Pan and have sleepovers — an early and key step in the seduction process. There’s just so much to think about in this tragic tale. Finally, James’ parents. The mothers have gotten blamed endlessly but James’ father was right there too. If we are going to blame the mothers, we have to also blame the father that was present. All three parents let down their kids but I hope they are forgiven. They trusted their kids to tell them if something was wrong, and they were bombarded by pleas to let them stay with Michael. A superb but deeply disturbing documentary.
71
@Andy I don't think Culkin was abused. It would have been very risky for MJ to do so with Culkin (and Feldman, and Ribiero). He was a famous and well-liked child actor, who would have been more likely to be believed. Abusers choose kids who are nobody, who don't have much. They are not likely to be believed, and can be accused of "gold digging".
Culkin would also make a great character witness, because, again, people liked and trusted him.
15
@Andy
Certainly child stars had more to lose than Wade and James who didn't have any fame to speak of. And like Wade and James, Culkin and Feldman might have fallen in love with Michael, too, and saw nothing wrong with the relationship. Could be that whatever they forged with Michael was much more loving, perverse as that may be, than what they had growing up. Wade and James, despite how things turned out, started with loving parents and normal childhoods.
5
So, so tragic. In this case, and many others, it took the collusion of many to make it happen.
Of course his brothers and others deny it. How would they live if they recognize their own roles in enabling this.
16
Likely many of the characteristic failures of human character: greed, dishonesty, sexual promiscuity, disregard or contempt of others, are manifestations of childhood abuse. If so, we will not have a world of peace and opportunity for all until childhood abuse is understood and drastically reduced. It has for long seemed to me that the most essential and important form of education is how to be a parent, and how to raise undamaged children.
15
Oprah is due for some criticism of her MJ interview in the 90s. Turning a blind eye is the most charitable way to put it.
19
Her interview happened before the first allegations
2
For a man to admit he was sexually abused in his youth takes a lot soul searching and deep courage. Michael Jackson's family knew exactly what he was doing with young innocent boys. If you look at evidence at the trial, ask any juror - Michael Jackson was guilty and got off by his high powered attorney planting seeds of doubt. Janet Jackson knew exactly what Michael was up to and was afraid to speak out as were her brothers, all in fear of what it would do to their careers.
40
@Bruce Savin 'If you look at evidence at the trial, ask any juror - Michael Jackson was guilty and got off by his high powered attorney planting seeds of doubt.'
I don't think this is true.
@Jan Actually, planting seeds of doubt is exactly what defense lawyers do. He would have been a poor lawyer if he did not.
4
@Bruce Savin ‘ask any juror ‘? What? 12 jurors in the only trial there was gave 14 not guilty verdicts!
2
I fully believe the two victims. Watching them tell their stories was gut wrenching.
Watching Oprah’s interview was almost harder. Poor James Safechuck looked so distressed and in pain. The interview of both individuals had a rawness that the editing of the documentary did not have- which rounded out the presentation of the abuse that occurred . I support both of them in their healing.
I fully support Reed for making the documentary and Oprah for the interviews.
This is a reckoning a long time coming for the house of Jackson.
83
@NYCarchitect,
Completely agree with your view.
While watching the documentary was heart wrenching, as these two young men were undoubtedly painfully speaking the truth from their souls, the Oprah interview cut me to the core. Although Robson seemed to be strongly on the path of reaching mental health and seems to have his "spirit" back, my heart hurts for James Safechuck for his pain came through so strongly it was devastating. I wish the best for both of these men and commend them for their courage in coming forward.
37
Given that child abuse is a cycle, with the abused child often going on to become an abusive parent, I shudder to think what Joseph's childhood was like.
How precious childhood is, how important it is that we treat children well, with love, encouragement, and good humor. So, when you think of the stressors that poverty causes within the home, why wouldn't we pour money into combating poverty? We could alleviate some of those stressors and prevent at least a few new cycles of abuse from beginning.
22
There’s a great Philip Larkin poem to that effect, but with too many expletives for me to quote. I am sure you can find it - “they mess you up, your mum snd dad...” (but the word is stronger than “mess”)
4
@EB
Poverty is definitely a stressor. That said, a large percentage of abusers are not poor. This is not as socio-economic problem.
7
@EBl
Let's be careful. Not every abused person goes on to become an abuser. It's not set in stone.
3
I watched the Martin Bashir interview and was completely mortified THEN!
MJ was bizarre: his actions, statements and physicality. After watching "Leaving Neverland" he so reminded me of the children's birthday party clown who is a pedophile....horrifying.
Michael Jackson's OWN actions have ruined the music for millions of listeners. Discussions about MJ's music are besides the point, almost trivial compared to his victimization of children.
Millions will now hear his music, his name and instantly think: "pedophile", and rightly so. The narrative of the lonely arrested development genius, is OVER!
45
Michael Jackson was a pedophile, the narcissist utterly indifferent to his victims, to social laws and morality - just above it all in search of his own pleasure. He was also the classic misogynist manchild justifying his sickness, then manipulating and isolating little boys he targeted for sex. Jackson constantly told the boys that women are terrible, which made it easier to get the boys to separate from their mothers; he'd already driven a wedge between the mother's and the father's marriage.
44
I wasn't allowed to listen to pop music and grew up pretty much ignorant of who Michael Jackson was. When I first saw him interviewed, he absolutely gave me the creeps. I've never been able to figure out why people embrace him and treat him like a hero--least of all Black Americans, when the guy basically melted his own face off trying not to be Black. What kind of message did THAT send? "Fame" warps peoples' perceptions in weird ways.
52
@D. Green As a child I grew up with his Thriller album and I thought and felt it was wonderful. Also the videos. I also loved Prince, When Doves Cry. When the Bad single was released I could not relate to it. I also thought wow he looks entirely different from the Thriller days. (Now I know his autopsy report showed he had Vitiligo skin disease. First the spots were covered with brown makeup by his make up assistant, which changed to white make up as the disease progressed). Years and years went by that I did not focus on Michael Jackson's music, until he died. That had a huge impact on me and I then realised his Thriller album had given me a lot of hope and strength during my difficult childhood, and beyond. Had nothing to do with fame.
@D. Green
He's a monster.
Having said that, the man developed vitiligo and chose going lighter all over so he wasn't patchy. He didn't have much of a choice on that. But the nose? Oh the nose, he went too far out of self hatred.
Let's also not forget he used the poor me I had my childhood stolen and I'm a man child now forever in order to play on the emotions of fans and parents. His father had a problem and he abused Michael. He's the only one who never had a girlfriend. As a popular musician, that was very odd. He made himself into a victim who needed help from others. He also created one of the creepiest and most extensive trap for child victims in the world with that Neverland Ranch.
6
Watched part 1. Made me sick to my stomach. Won't watch part 2. Too painful and revolting. Still cannot fathom parents letting their kids go to a complete stranger, especially one so clearly disturbed, regardless of his artistic genius.
25
@Jim R.
I see the boys' parents as being malicious and greedy. It was just all too obvious. I couldn't watch Jackson then, and certainly am not going to watch him now.
@Jim R. Being a child abuse survivor, both physically, emotionally and sexually, I felt exactly as you. While watching part 1 I found myself staking and nauseous. I knew I could not even imagine viewing the second part.
@Jim R Part II is much easier to watch, less graphic detail, more of the aftermath and very worthwhile to watch, more so than Part I.
4
Sadly, according to one report, 1 in 5 girls and 1 in 20 boys is a victim of child sexual abuse.
http://victimsofcrime.org/media/reporting-on-child-sexual-abuse/child-sexual-abuse-statistics
Fortunately, many of those people--like some of the commentators in these threads and the victims in the documentary---don't turn into child abusers themselves. To the contrary, with the proper support, they tell their stories and help educate and heal themselves and others.
This was the fundamental problem with MJ. Obviously he had some serious psychological issues, wherever they came from . And he knew what he was doing was wrong and illegal. But nobody gave him the "help" and support he needed because that would have required him to admit his sins and do jail time. And it would have destroyed the "Michael" myth and damaged the "brand." Instead, anybody who had any sway in his life ignored all the signs and pretended everything was fine, while they watched the money roll in.
And with each new victim, and each passing year, it got tougher to stop and to change and to get help.
12
@sjs
That's a choice he made repeatedly because he was a bad person. He chose to seduce and trap children, especially those who couldn't fight back bc they had no money or family support. Looks to me like Jackson had a full dance card every night. He went through these young boys pretty quickly and purposefully. Talking it out would never have happened unless he went to jail because he didn't want to stop. He dedicated his whole life to seducing and bedding young boys, right in front of us.
Also, people keep referring to Man In The Mirror as an example of MJ's true heart, but they don't seem to know he didn't write that song.
2
The abuse by MJ of children -- and the abuse by Joe Jackson - all happened under the blinding glare and hypnotic force of FAME. Everyone looked the other way because of their unquestioning adoration of MJ's talent and fame, which allowed him to commit unspeakable acts on children. These are children whose parents gave MJ access to them because of the enormity of his public persona. This is what is now seen as "the Kardashian effect", right?
16
The fathers of Wade Robson and the first litigant committed suicide. There are so many victims, not just the boys, but many members of their families including their own wives and children. Michael Jackson’s search for sexual gratification from children as young as seven destroyed many lives.
50
@Rick These two families were deeply dysfunctional —in the Chandler family, the parents of Jordy were already divorced, had remarried, with kids from the second marriage. There were deep resentments over child care payments, the divorce, and other parental control issues. In the Arvizo family, the father beat the mother and the couple divorced after a conflicted and violent relationship. The parents in both families were not able to function well as individuals or as a couple. To suggest Jackson alone caused 2 deaths by suicide is nuts.
4
The author is comparing 2 different types of abuse as the same. Forceful, painful, hateful abuse. And the kind Michael Jackson was very skillful at administering: the kind that feels like love. The kind that feels like love is way harder to deal with. As Oprah said after the documentary was shown: “It doesn’t feel like abuse “. That’s where the confusion lies. When you believe you are loved by another person that person is very important to you....even after you question if it was love. Everyone should be horrified. These were children.
49
@befade
Even people who suffer from physical abuse can be in a confusing emotional relationship with their abuser... children and parents have this dynamic all of the time. Abuse does not have to be sexual to be emotionally manipulative.
2
Jackson always and very vocally professed his innocence of the allegations, and his family continues defending him today. So here's my question: Why did he pay an accuser $25M if he was innocent? And please don't say he didn't want a trial because if you're innocent and you have that kind of money one would think the first and only inclinaiton is to refuse any payment and move to very publicaly defend yourself-not pay a ton of hush money.
14
@Mueller Fan Have you ever been sued in a civil suit? I have. Have you ever been forced to defend yourself and pay huge lawyer fees just because someone decided to hire a lawyer and go after you to get what they want? Have you ever heard that lawyers generally have a bad reputation, that the court system is as slow and messy as Molasses? Have you ever been the target of the media hit squad while all that is happening? Most people try to stop the torture, the stress, the expense, and make it go away if they can. I was repeatedly urged to settle by family and friends who saw the stress I was under.
8
For all the denials, I can still hear my step mother, upon hearing the accusations snorting and saying, "Where there's smoke, there's fire." Indeed.
16
While I think it is important that all these stories about child sex offenders are emerging, the most heinous form of pedophilia has yet to be really covered in the news: and that is incest within the family. Most children who are sexually abused are sexually abused by a parent or a family member. So let's start talking about that.
Also, I must object to the trope that abusees become abusers; while true some of the time, most abuse survivors actually end up going into professions to help people in one form or another. It's really important to remember that. Many abusers actually are narcissists or have deep feelings of "over" entitlement, while many abuse survivors feel as if their needs don't matter.
32
“Leaving Neverland “ is so distressing. You feel bad for all involved, certainly the families of the abused men, but also Michael Jackson and his family who are compelled to defend him out of loyalty and/or financial reasons. Michael Jackson was certainly a great talent but apparently also a very charismatic person - which I don’t feel was addressed adequately in the documentary. To me, the Safechuck and Robson families were understandably taken in by Jackson’s angelic childlike charisma, his great wealth, his attention to them, and the great talent he possessed which loomed over everything. Most upsetting is that the “mythos” of Joe Jackson’s discipline, determination and alleged physical and even sexual abuse of his children in order to catapult them to stardom which Michael Jackson claimed had stolen his childhood, was then appropriated by Michael himself to steal the childhoods of the young boys who idolized him. It’s a tragic story for them all. And for Michael’s die-hard fans - having to come to terms with his shattered image.
20
It's odd to me that no one focuses on the fact that during his life, MJ didn't have the normal relationships with girls (or guys) his own age or at least age appropriate that naturally occurs. Either voluntarily or involuntarily, most of us want a partner and are often driven by our hormones/genes starting in our teens and continuing thereafter. Aside from some apparent media hyped short-term sham marriages and having kids by artificial insemination (all in reponse to being accused of pedophilia), MJ's well-documented choice was to pursue young boys to the exclusion of all others. Staff reports within his home and his own admissions corroborate his sleeping and showering with naked young boys. Almost all of us have sexual needs and desires and can be quite driven to satisfy them. There is no evidence MJ had ordinary relationships to satisfy his needs and desires that almost every young celebrity has. What becomes very clear is that he used his power and stardom to satisfy his sexual needs exclusively with very young boys when we know he could have had an unlimited number of age-appropriate partners at his disposal. Only intimate pictures with young boys. I really feel sadness for the abused victims and too see them tell their stories together with the pictures and videos with MJ makes me feel disgusted he got away with this so long. I hope the statute of limitations is over-tuned and the estate is required to compensate his victims for the pain and trauma he caused.
30
Love that the photo caption points out that Jackson is the one on the left. Thanks, I was a little uncertain.
7
I understand what this article is trying to say - what Michael and his siblings felt towards their father- something similar with these two young ones.
Loyalty, love or whatever.
But a big difference.
MJ and his siblings were their father's children.
While these two boys as it turns out were his toys - so to speak - or as he calls himself a child trapped in a man's body.
I share outrage expressed belo - how could parents entrust their kids to this man?
Forget looking at his visage on that TV interview, the fact of the matter that he literally kidnapped them.
In today's world - his parents were child traffickers.
And for this one family to have moved from Australia.
Is there a statute of limitation against these crimes.
If not - I hope our government goes after them - if for no other reason than to warn others - that this was a reckless child endangerment and worse a criminal enterprise.
For this Aussie family, they should be at least prosecuted on visa fraud.
It's simply unbelievable that a mother would not know what was going on.
7
The greatest of the 1980s were Prince and Bowie. The freakiest and saddest was Jackson.
12
Michael Jackson is the American Jimmy Savile. Celebrity, wealth and hiding behind the guise of helping children helped him avoid prison. The damage to his victims is devastating and lifelong. Will people remove his star from the Hollywood Walk of Fame, or do we turn a blind eye to the criminal behavior? Yes, "Thriller" was a best selling album, but aren't the lives of children more important?
29
@santacroce
Come on, not to excuse Jackson in any way but Jimmy Saville is accused of abusing something like 300-500 people, including necrophilia. Let's not get carried away here.
2
@Boaz The comparison lies not in the number of victims but in the way both men manipulated their fame to cover their crimes.
17
@Boaz How do you know how many boys MJ abused? Do you know that at least 80% of child abuse victims do not come forward because of the trauma, shame and not being believed? No one dared to do something about Savile while he was alive because of his wealth and celebrity and his charity work with kids, just like MJ. MJ is the American Jimmy Savile.
18
Sadly Michael Jackson was a damaged individual who never escaped his father's physical abuse and who became an abuser himself . Neverland , where no one grows up became his fantasy and escape . Even if Joe at some point stopped abusing his children , the fact remains he still ruled and intimidated them and they never escaped him . As much as people didn't believe these boys ; it stood out like a sore thumb of denial . A grown man whose many surgeries left him deformed , addicted ; sleeping with little boys is and was never normal . The parents of these children who were dazzled by what Michael Jackson offered them surely were willing to overlook that little twinge of concern when a grown man , a non family member asked to sleep with their children . These boys paid the price . I believe it happened .
44
Poor bewildered, miserable Michael Jackson. Look at his face.
It's a wonder any mother could entrust her child to him. Invite him to tea, of course, if the circumstance arose, and keep your eye on your kid; but to leave Mr. Jackson alone with a minor?
Just because Elizabeth Taylor cherished his friendship is no reason to relax a maternal guard.
22
Both of these men’s stories and pain are heartbreaking. Mr. Robson seems to have found some peace. I fear Mr. Safechuck never will and that is beyond sad. Anyone who watched this documentary and doesn’t believe the abuse hasn’t watched closely enough. MJ’s staunchest defenders won’t give any of this a thought. Which leads me to ask about his sisters who have remained very quiet during all of this. Janet? LaToya? Rebbie? What say you.....
26
Michael Jackson was an artist of great genius. He was clearly also a pedophile who preyed on the innocence of children. As with most pedophiles, his was a result of crimes done to him as a child. He is someone in our culture who can be admired, despised and pitied, all at the same time.
37
“Leaving Neverland” easily dispels Jackson’s facade as an overgrown child, innocently “loving” children. The cold, calculated manner in which he serially lured and raped children enamored of his stardom, and the paradise he created to seal the unforgivable deal at “Neverland,” reveals the heart of a monster. He has incontrovertiblely emerged as evil incarnate and his greedy heirs should be asking how they can make the victims whole, not trying to defend the indefensible decedent.
54
In my opinion Martin Bashir's approach was very biased, with suggestive comments and tabloid questions he interrogated Michael Jackson with. As I can remember the people at Neverland set up a simultaneous recording that showed what information was edited out of the Bashir version.
I feel comfortable listening to Michael Jackson's music. I believe the statements of other people who knew him very well. I prefer to reach a well informed conclusion and even more preferably based on factual evidence that leaves no room for doubt. Also I'm sorry but to be honest, the graphic details told in this one sided documentary I can do without.
4
@Jan Martin By all accounts, MJ was a very savvy businessman. Why would he pay out over $20 million dollars to his accusers? Is that the action of an innocent man? So many red flags about MJ, yet still some people are in deep denial.
25
@Jan Martin
@Jan "believe the statement by the people who knew him?" In the documentary just released the men who spoke on Michaels abuse had known him for years, the boys families knew Michael for years, they went on tour with him, spent weeks sleeping over at his ranch, staff who worked for MJ testified they saw him naked with the boys. They had records of the hours of phone conversations and thousands of faxes exchanged between MJ and these children, something normal adults don't do obviosly. To think all of this evidence and all of these people who just happened to be in his life for years are lying is being willfully ignorant of reality.
17
The father of a friend of mine worked as a musician for LaToya Jackson a quarter of century ago. When accusations against MJ arose, my friend argued that the accusations could not be true because Jackson was used to host lots of kids at his house and the accusers were only after his attention and money. Did I mention we were 10 years old ? I feel so sorry for the victims who are still facing this global personality cult so many years later. I feel sorry for the men who testified they did sleep in MJ's bed, left unscathed, and use this as an argument to assert others were not abused. I feel sorry we can leave anybody go so far into madness.
25
@Emilie The recent Royal Commission Into Institutional Child Abuse in Australia determined that the average time between abuse and disclosure was 24 years - and it was even higher for boys. It also determined that it was common for victims to deny the abuse when they were directly asked. So, it is completely within the realms of possibility that some men who currently deny being abused by Mr Jackson may tell us something different with the passage of time.
26
Jackson was charged and tried and he was not convicted. There is a lot of evidence left out of this film and this article that reflects badly on Robson (you can read it in Forbes) and calls his motives into question. However, whether you believe it or not, pedophiles are not "monsters". Pedophiles are tragic figures whose sexuality is not defined as straight or gay. It is completely unique and sui generis. Imagine having sexual urges your entire life for something you can never have. It would be enough to drive you insane. If all of the accusations are true I feel terribly for the accusers but I feel just as bad for Jackson. The film "Little Children" presents a harrowing account of what it is like to be a pedophile (the pedophile in the film is so disgusted with his behavior he castrates himself). Jackson's life was a horrible tragedy. Without more proof than this film offers I refuse to pile on as "believable" as Robson is. He was believable at Jackson's trial as well. When we he telling the truth?
7
@Jonny Walker Shame on you Mr. Walker. Robson was not the only person to say they have been molested by this man. Pedophiles are monsters, they prey on the innocent, and they cannot be "fixed."
Sorry if his life was torture, but he did not need to abuse children to satisfy his urges.
I wonder if you believe OJ Simpson is innocent as well, he was tried and was not convicted, of not being guilty of murder, not being innocent? Same as Michael Jackson.
21
@Jonny Walker --
I think you are parsing words here. A pedohpile--that is, a person who is sexually attracted to young children---may be a "tragic" figure in the sense you describe, but one who acts on those feelings, repeatedly abusing many boys and causing them long-term emotional damage is not a victim. That is pure evil, in my book at least.
Also, I have absolutely no sympathy for MJ. He had a difficult and abusive father? Okay. Join the club. What about the millions of other people who had bad parents, or no parents at all? MJ may have had a whacked out pops but he also had millions of dollars in the bank, unlimited opportunity, and people who would do anything for him, if he was willing to look himself in the mirror (no pun intended) and get help. Instead, he chose to ignore it, keep making the $$$ and ruining people's lives.
So yes that is a tragedy, but not for him.
32
@Jonny Walker He was charged at a trial in which two defence witnesses now say they lied. Personally, I would not be using that to suggest evidence of his innocence.
5
Thanks for not assuming that everyone knows who this monster was by indicating that he's on the left in the photo.
However, those who did know him and what he did are equally guilty. You can't be around the guy for so long and dismiss the behavior with "Oh, that's just Michael." You call the cops.
18
@Mike B The whole world said "Oh, that's just Michael". That's how predators work - they lull their victims and those around them into a false sense of security.
8
This is another story of a victim becoming a perpetrator, like R. Kelly. We condemn these people for the harm they've done to others, but are they not also deserving a modicum of sympathy? Their minds were twisted and warped as children as a result of the abuses they endured. Why would we expect them to become normal, mentally healthy adults?
7
We can and ought to have empathy for the suffering of abused turning abuser. But let us first call the abuse out for what it is and not cover it up. Let us second open our heart to the abused who did not turn abuser and were denied a trauma free life. Then we can also feel the empathy for the victims turned perpetrator.
11
Thanks for this article, as it articulates many of my thoughts after watching the documentary. Abusive behavior gets passed along to the point that it's hard to know where to focus blame, how to direct anger.
Blaming Michael for being a wealthy pedophile, or blame Joe Jackson for making him wealthy and a pedophile? Blame the parents for allowing their kids to sleep alone with Michael, or blame their upbringing for whatever made them so carelessly enamored by his fame and seduction? Can we, as an audience, feel empathy for those who are victims of an illness, or do we simply blame them for exercising their illness? It's all so complicated.
In the end, it feels to me like the exposure of some of the sadder aspects of the human condition. Hopefully, the exposure to the complexities in this story help others avoid the victimizing and coping of such abuse.
13
@Dan Gibson When you have someone who is a sociopath, a toxic personality, the damage that they do, not just to their victims but spreading out to a wide group of people, is enormous. The criminal acts here were committed by one person: MJ. Perhaps the next documentary can be the enablers of the criminal - the personal assistants, security, staff who observed his behavior but did nothing to protect the children.
12
Abuse begets abuse begets abuse. In many ways, this is the ongoing grave result of the slavery practiced throughout American history.
4
Jackson & Trump
The feeling that you should have noticed something was wrong when Jackson said "the most loving thing you can do is share a bed with someone", is something we should all feel when considering Donald J. Trump.
I don't know if we will ever see behind the veil of lies as clearly as we are seeing Michael Jackson when it comes to Donald Trump, but let us take stock of his public behavior. He stated he walked in on teens getting dressed purposefully. He bragged about sexually assaulting women, and women have confirmed he did this. He has made lecherous comments to children saying things like "I'll be dating you in 10 years.". He has sexualized his daughter in photos and statements. His own wife accused him of spousal rape. He was also accused by a woman of rape when she was 13, and she had a witness. She dropped the charges after threats to her and her family, the same claims made by Stephanie Cliffords.
It's easy to forget all of this when the braggadocio volume is set to 10 all the time, as it was to allow oneself to listen to Beat It or Thriller one more time. That uneasiness that turned into horror regarding Michael Jackson should be setting off the same alarm bells about Donald Trump.
54
Yet, Michael Jackson is NOT alive to Defend the accusations!
So it is now either you believe the accusers or you don't.
No one will Ever know the real truth at this point.
SADLY, for everyone that is invested as an outsider.
2
@Ronald Dennis Actually, the victims know the real truth.
19
The Jackson family have always seemed to me to be some of the oddest people around. Michael the obvious cash cow whose every sin was ignored. LaToya who has spent a lifetime wringing every cent out of the Jackson name. Janet who has made record after record consisting of no more than heavy breathing.
Every trauma and scandal lapped up by a celebrity-obsessed, dumbed-down fanbase.
28
I haven't seen any of this stuff. I did grow up listening to Off the Wall and Thriller. I'm inclined to believe that MJ molested children, but I think his own child-like persona makes it also believable that he just spent time with children like he was a child. I don't think a world of MJ fans had their heads buried in the sand. MJ carefully crafted an eflin, childlike persona. He always seemed like a case of arrested development. Not artistically, but personally, as if he himself were still 11 years old. If he did indeed wear a mask, it wasn't the mask of a good adult man. It was the mask of a child. MJ never asked his fans to think he was in any way a normal human being, and that's why many probably accepted his own statements. It was oddly believable that he hung out with tweens, because he himself felt like a tween. Also, MJ's persona (not in his performances), was very passive. He seemed like an effeminate gay man. Everything about him seems so strange, passive, and elfin, that it was semi-believable that he just saw tweens (not adults) as his peers. I'm not defending MJ. I'm sort of defending people who believe MJ.
4
@Anti-Marx The simple reality is that Mr Jackson could not present himself as a "good adult man". Good adult men do not sleep alone in beds with young boys. So, if we take the end goal as wanting to sleep alone with young boys, Mr Jackson had to construct a persona in which that would seem acceptable. And what better persona than "oh, he's just a child himself"?
10
@Anti-Marx I am unfamilar with this arrested development. Is there a scientific term for this?
1
@Melbourne Town
Right; that's my point. My comment was about people who believe him.
It is hard to imagine feeling comfortable listening to Jackson's music now. He has been creepy for so many years but I didn't pay much attention to him until I watched this very compelling documentary. I didn't at all feel that not telling the other side of the story was needed. It is the story of two men's lives that were broken by association with MJ. And that is enough. They are believable and that is enough.
39
MENTAL, PSYCHOLOGICAL, EMOTIONAL VIOLENCE USUALLY SEEMS UP TO 90% OF THE EQUATION
Aisha Harris mentions a type of violence which is hardly ever talked about, but which is often way more damaging than physical violence: Mental (psychological, emotional) violence.
And ignoring mental, psychological, emotional violence seems like pretending that the Atlantic Ocean doesn’t exist.
Like in the World Health Organization’s very definition of violence, which reads as follows:
“The intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment or deprivation”.
A flawed definition indeed, as mental, psychological, emotional violence seems to be very hidden, and the word “power” misleads the reader to think that only the “powerful” can violate others with mental, psychological, emotional violence - which there is no direct mention of.
One can for example easily assume that Mr. Harvey Weinstein’s accusers of sexual violence were predominantly under the spell of forceful mental, psychological, emotional violence - which is also a major factor in any bullying situation - and the preferred type of violence of most psychopaths and perhaps sociopaths - as well as of most addicts of both drugs and alcohol.
So being aware of the above may help to understand the true sources, causes and consequences.
///
2
It's difficult to take Ms. Harris and people like her seriously. For almost three decades, it was plainly obvious to any reasonable person that Mr. Jackson was a serial pedophile. Believing otherwise required the suspension of one's ordinary faculty of common sense. Cardinal Claiborne Pell is going to jail in a few months on the strength of circumstantial evidence far less compelling than that surrounding Mr. Jackson.
In the case of Cd. Pell, he ran out of camp followers willing to cover for him. But Mr. Jackson never did. He could always count on the Aisha Harris's of the world to cling to the microscopic probability that it was all a big hoax. Sound familiar? It should, because that's what Trump supporters are doing today.
Mr. Jackson was a creation of Reagan-era consumer capitalism. He was a brand featuring a synthesized voice and signature dance moves; a vehicle for product placement. You can't be a successful pop star without eccentricity, otherwise you're John Denver, so cue the single glove and cosmetic surgery apocalypse.
At the end of the day, Mr. Jackson was a user of drugs and abuser of children. If you're wondering why so many clergyman, celebrities, Presidents and the fabulously wealthy get away with it, look no further than the fact that it has taken Ms. Harris a couple of decades to finally admit that maybe Jackson really was pretty awful.
76
@Gary F.S. I look at the 2003 Santa Barbara mugshot and it reminds me of Adam Lanza's photo. How could anyone look at MJ in the last 10 years of his life and not think something was really wrong?
28
Was an exceptionally good documentary - both of the boys are very compelling, highly recommend.
32
This attack on Michael Jackson is unbelievable. I posted a comment earlier about people sleeping in the same bed and got many repsonses like this one, "How many young children ages 7-14 in your family regularly sleep in an adult “friend”’s bed?"
Which brings me back to part of my first comment - Michael Jackson may have been an adult in years but he was a child at heart- abused and kept isolated by his father his entire career.
He was lonely. I believe his "sleeping in the same bed" was like young people's slumber parties.
I will always believe this is about nothing but money. Other commenters have said the accusers aren't suing and that the director said they weren't getting any money. However, there was an article in another major publication today that said Sony bought the rights to Michael Jackson's music and now they are "in trouble" because of this documentary.
It is seriously unfortunate but EVERYTHING today is about money. I think this goes way deeper in the corporate money-raiding community than we know.
Rest in Peace, Mr. Jackson, and Thank You for your irreplaceable contribution to music that will live forever.
5
@njglea
Sony isn't in trouble be a because of a lawsuit. It is worried that the value of the rights it bought to Jackson's music won't be worth what they paid because fewer people will pay to hear or download his music.
18
Yes, I know, Mr. Case. But it's still all about money.
2
@njglea No, it's not all about money for these men who suffered Jackson's abuse while many covered for him over decades. It's now about the truth.
43
My one experience with pedophilia came through a friend, now deceased. We were out to dinner one night, when she was describing something to do with her family. All at once, she had a flashback to her father abusing her. She mentioned this to me, had a panicked look in her eyes, and gripped my hand so hard I thought it would break. I could not look away, as her face told a story that was one of the most heartbreaking things I have ever witnessed. We left immediately.
She died years later of pelvic cancer. Her oncologist diagnosed her illness by comparing it to the way termites eat a piece of wood. I went to visit months before she died - she was doing chemo, but already at Stage 4. In my mind, I wondered whether the incest and the pelvic cancer were related, and felt that they were. I could not bring myself to tell her that, in response to her question of how this could have happened. To this day, I am not sure whether that was the right thing to do. She was a courageous person, but I just didn't know if my musings would make it all worse somehow.
The manifestation of distressed feelings and trauma in the body is what we now know to be real. I don't doubt that it is present in both of Jackson's victims. May they both heal, however long it may take.
41
@for the union
They probably were related indirectly. It would have been much harder for her to endure a routine doctor's exam for cervical cancer, so she may have not done them. So sorry for her to have to deal with both of those problems.
18
Sir or Madam - you did the absolutely right thing. It was too late at that time and would not given your friend anymore peace had she attributed her cancer related early departure and suffering to her childhood suffering. But your story should heard by all cancer patients as well as anyone connected to abuse or working with abused. To reverse a cancer one also needs to radically acknowledge and attempt to heal all emotional and spiritual traumas suffered over a life time. The stored abuse needs to leave the body.
9
Quite frankly, as a parent, I can't imagine handing over my child for days and weeks, months and years.
Why didn't these parents suspect the abuse?
34
@Dolly Patterson They didn't want to believe it. Money, power, fame and manipulation knocked them off guard. Michael Jackson was manipulative. The mothers felt like he was a brother or son to them. They were also in vulnerable positions, which is part of the reason he chose them. It's hard to see the monster lurking underneath in a situation like that.
19
Because he was paying them and giving them a taste of a very high life?
4
@Dolly Patterson
Watch the documentary and you will understand.
10
Pedophiles fashion themselves and their environment in a way that allows them to groom and assault their victims. The sad thing is, if MJ was just a normal citizen, devoid of money, power and fame, he never would have had the level of access to so many children and certainly wouldn't have convinced mothers to allow their 7 yo boys to sleep in his room/bed. Fame and money short-circuited the maternal instinct to guard one's child from an adult stranger's bed. We will never know the complicated pathology that drove MJ but it is a moot point. As was laid obvious in the documentary, that pathology ruined innocent children, and since it occurred at such a formative age, the abuse will likely remain an integral part of the boys lives forever. The most heart-breaking scene for me was when Mr Safechuck told the story about the ring box; he blamed himself for liking shiny rings as a boy, which MJ used as a weapon to require sex. That self-blame is now hard-wired in his psyche. As importantly, the mothers will have to live with the shame and sadness that their first duty as a parent, to protect their child, was abrogated to experience a fleeting sense of reflected glory. This documentary serves as both an important warning and a wake up call. I applaud all involved.
90
@Mildred Pierce so well
Said
8
@Mildred Pierce Oh gosh I am so with you. When he held that ring in his shaking hand, I started to cry. You could feel his pain through the television screen. It said it all to me.
14
@Mildred Pierce my thoughts exactly, very well put.
6
In 2003 I believed that the 13-year-old boy who rested his head on Jackson’s shoulder was a victim of abuse. It still floors me that others didn’t see it.
It was never normal or acceptable for a man in his 30s to share his bed with a series of little boys. Never.
I struggled with the decision to watch “Leaving Neverland” or ignore it. After all, I needed no convincing. In the end I admit I viewed it more out of morbid curiosity than anything else. But i did want to hear from those boys’ parents. And this aspect left me disappointed.
Why vilify only the mothers?
While Wade Robson’s sad father seemingly had no agency over the fate of his son, Jame Safechuck’s father was fully engaged in the trading of his handsome boy for admission to Jackson’s world (money, luxury, “lifestyles of the rich and famous”). Yet he is barely mentioned. Even Wade Robson’s siblings and grandparents are, seemingly, given the “all clear” on culpability. But they did not step in, or speak up.
No, it is so much easier to blame the mothers. Shame on the filmmaker for stooping to that trope. As vile as the women are, they were not acting alone.
52
@Passion for Peaches
And yet, the documentary didn’t explore what the boys’ reactions might have been if the mothers had kept the boys from Jackson.
I think they might have hated their mothers for that.
10
@Passion for Peaches I agree about looking at the fathers' culpability, but not the siblings. What did they know? They were children themselves.
10
@Passion for Peaches I agree completely that the fathers should have been even less naive than the mothers about Jackson's sexual proclivities. In the doc. both mothers seemed very naive to me. But the fathers who may have had a better understanding of what was going on with their sons should have been far more present and aware.
13
It is beyond me how anyone could think that a man who lived in a house equipped with an amusement park, arcade, and zoo, hung out with young boys, openly admitted to sleeping with young boys, and was accused of child molestation, was anything *other* than a child molester. Sometimes the simplest answer is also the best answer.
211
@JBL Occam's razor: the simplest answer is likely the correct answer.
41
Money and fame does not make someone above the law, nor does it establish that behaviors and actions, especially highly questionable ones, of someone within the celebrity sphere are acceptable because of their stature.
They are know different than you or I except they have more exposure, power and influence. They should be held to the same moral standards as everyone else.
Actually, they should be held to a higher standard.
This is where the cult of personality takes advantage of our society and abuses. Badly abuses.
This was a courageous documentary that I was wary to watch, I thought it would be highly sensationalized. It was not. I learned a lot about the nature of pedophilia and sexual abusers (in fact all abusers). I was deeply moved by the forthcoming information of both of the gentleman who were so terribly taken advantage of.
They did a noble public service. I mourn for them. There were no adults in the room. They were deeply betrayed and in irrevocable ways.
And we as a society have a lot to learn, we seem to bow to celebrity at far too high a cost.
Just look to the White House.
What will it take for us to learn?
37
Watched the doc, believe both the men.
Why does MJ's mother get a pass on the abuse? Only the father is written about as the abuser. Isn't it abuse to do nothing to stop the pain? Parents need to protect their children period, even from the other parent.
63
@Becca I don't think anyone gets a pass. The fact that the parents were motivated to react as they did is as compelling as the abusers' and victims' motives.
3
@Becca, I agree with you on the culpability of a parent who does nothing to protect a child that a spouse of partner is abusing. I had an emotionally abusive parent and a parent who I saw as the “good” one. Kids often think that way, even if the “good one” is, in many ways, as bad as the more overt abuser. That “good” parent was the one who would hit me (as punishment). Emotional abuse hurts more than hitting. I did not fully see or understand the abusive dynamic in my home until I was an adult. Worse, I was not able to judge them for their actions (and inactions) until I was the age they were when I was a child.
When I heard Jackson’s victims say that the penny dropped for them when they had their own children, it made perfect sense to me. I remember thinking, “My parents were my age when they willfully hurt a child.”
I have seen Jackson’s mother speak in brief interviews. She comes across as borderline delusional, immersed in her religious beliefs. Her husband was a domineering man, and her religion teaches that a wife should submit to her husband. I get the impression that she had no power to protect her children. Or perhaps she saw no need to protect because she saw none of it as wrong.
23
@Becca
I'm sure she too was abused.
7
I'm not an expert, bu isn't it more than a little likely that Joseph Jackson sexually abused Michael as a child? I find it curious that Latoya claims that it was done to her, and both she and Michael speak/spoke in those forever-childlike voices.
I don't think any pedophile wakes up one day and decides to be a pedophile. He was either "taught", or had a congenital predisposition triggered somehow. Or both. If all or much of what is claimed about Michael Jackson regarding pedophilia is true, then the unique circumstances of his life worked towards an incredible level of enabling, possibly too much for anyone to be able to overcome. I wouldn't be surprised that his family knows the truth, but would never reveal it. It fits with their family dynamic.
38
@Barry Williams It's likely.
And we do know that their father was physically abusive - and also that not only did no one "protect" them from that, but the he was defended because of the argument that whatever he did was worth it because it made them stars . . .
13
I was in a group of students educated and on track to potentially become big names in entertainment. 30 years later a few are, the majority are not. While other factors also play a role, and the successful ones do a pretty good job, they are also without exception (talking about my classmates) the sickest in the group, most unhappy with multiple divorces and with bad habits. And when you see them with a hole where others have a soul. What is the chicken or egg is hard to say - but massive success and unhappiness are often close cousins.
4
@Barry Williams
Or one of those older brothers. Any younger sibling with an older brother knows the potential for abuse, many know the reality.
3
Victim of abuse often can't acknowledge it, not without years of therapy.
22
As a survivor of sexual abuse at a very young age I can understand what these men have and are going through. You can block it out of your mind but it's still there and hovers over everything you do. You blame yourself even though you know that a child could have never done anything to warrant that. You even cry at their funeral. Talking about it helps. I hope these men get the help they need and learn to heal as much as possible. Masculinity keeps boys from telling the truth for fear that it will harm their reputation or shame them. In my case when I told family members they didn't want me to talk about it or tell anyone else because it was a long time ago. "Can't you just get over it?"
211
@B Yes, yes, yes. My mother found out (I was afraid to tell her because I'd been "bad") it stopped but was also never mentioned again. Then when I began healing in therapy and brought it up, I got the same response:"Just get over it already." As if it's something you can ever "get over". It has permanent effects on your life and its trajectory. It never goes away, but with treatment we can stop making the same dysfunctional decisions based on childhood coping skills. Sadly, too many people don't have the option for the many years of therapy required to heal as fully as possible.
34
@B
I was taught that masculinity was telling the truth even if others may not like it.
"Humans are attracted to each other's rough edges"-No More Mr. Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover
3
@B, I am sorry for your pain.
Although it may be simply coincidental, it’s interesting that you use the same, disassociative language that James Safechuck used in describing his abuse. “You” do this and “you” do that. I wanted to cry, hearing Safechuck speak that way. The man is so clearly damaged and hurting.
Wade Robson used similarly neutral language when he repeatedly said “the sexual stuff happened.” Passive language, putting the action at a distance.
27
As a child who was molested by a relative and later sexually abused by my spouse, there was absolutely nothing in what Safechuck and Robson said which didn't ring true. Sex abuse is often a complex thing. Trauma and pleasure, love and agony are often tangled together, and then burned into survivor's brains, in ways that not only a young person can't process, but psychologist and scientists have yet to really explain to anyone's satisfaction. Just because a person is not capable of coping with "he abused me," at 20, does not mean that "OMG, HE ABUSED ME!" will not emerge at 30.
Jackson was very likely both a victim of his father AND a perpetrator himself. Those things are NOT mutually exclusive. What we know now about Cluster B disorders being heritable mean that Jackson's premeditated grooming AND his desperation at not being left alone were BOTH quite likely REAL. Much of that was part of Jackson's brain hardware and a result of the abuse he suffered. Cluster B disorders are heritable, and Cluster B parents make the WORST parents.
123
Jackson groomed his victims as well as their parents who should have protected them.
Jackson’s talent and wealth enabled him to also buy his high priced lawyers who in turn provided him with not guilty verdicts.
Having watched the documentary it is apparent the victims are still dealing with the trauma of the abuse and then rejection when they entered adolescence and were no longer sexually appealing to Jackson.
Jackson was a pedophile and whatever the roots of his vile sickness were there is absolutely no excuse for him to have not sought professional help. He chose instead to invest in creating his fantasy Neverland a place where he could seduce and abuse his victims.
It is a relief he is gone and can no longer be a danger to more young children. The money that his estate rakes in should be used to help current children of abuse. That might be a way to redemption. However, I fear it will just be a way to enrich his greedy family who will continue to deny reality.
50
Michael Jackson was the textbook pedophile finding victims who were vulnerable and using a vast power imbalance to steadily groom them and their families in order to ultimately isolate and sexually assault the children.. His fame and wealth were wielded as awesome tools in this criminal modus operandi.
However many things conspire to soften public opinion of Michael Jackson. First and foremost he's dead. Justice either has been served, or never will be served on Jackson, depending on your perspective.
His psychological profile and makeup have long been questioned based on his abusive father, dysfunctional childhood, the plastic surgery, the strange dictator outfits, his trial for abusing minors, hanging the baby over the railing, Elizabeth Taylor--the list of outlandish inexplicable behavior goes on. "Wacko Jacko" stood as his tabloid moniker for many years.
Ultimately he died of a drug overdose. I find it tough not to feel some sympathy or at least curiosity at the horrificly ascendent show business life where this childhood prodigy was exploited by those around him and ultimately leaned to exploit.
10
@Skeet Has anyone ever wondered about hjs children's parentage??? I have for years. Do you think he fathered them biologically? I never have thought so.
5
@Skeet During the 2005 court trial it was determined that he did not fit the profile of a paedophile.
@Karen Stearns He was a loving dad, according to his children.
It is impossible to know which is worst, R. Kelly screaming on TV this morning or these documentaries that highlight the criminals that walk among us. There is no difference in organized crime, everyone is covering up something but the one variable is that everyone worships at the throne of money.
What type of society are we that we are so closed minded when people tell us what happened to them, that we don't do anything at the moment but wait thirty years later to bring these stories to light. Half of your life is ruined before anyone in authority to bring about change does so.
The untold suffering of individuals seems to never end because of society's callous disregard for the truth.
I pray the next generation does a better job of handing abuse then the current defenders of children have done
10
What affected me deeply about Leaving Neverland is that Michael Jackson’s perversion was these two men’s experience of ‘first love’.
They loved him and part of them still does; you can clearly see they are still struggling with their sense of love and fealty towards him. And that is why they are compelling. I found them both to be sincere.
People who don’t believe them simply lack emotional intelligence.
91
There is little room for doubt that Michael Jackson abused these children exactly as described in Leaving Neverland. Like priests and bishops, he abused his position of power and his aura of 'godliness'.
Impossible to hear his music now in the same way, as it is impossible to watch Bill Cosby content in the same way.
Naivete' is forever gone and I am better for it.
57
I remember watching this interview with Jackson and Bashir. My reaction was "MJ is as phony as three dollar bill." Phony look, multiple plastic surgeries, phony speaking voice and phony responses about his relationships with little boys. MJ came off as a severely disturbed self-hating man who was trying to be someone he was not. And I think the weight of all of it crashed down on him and he started self-medicating and died.
36
I hope there are lots of lawsuits against his Estate. Jackson's greedy brothers have been milking his Estate.
18
@Philip W The Jackson family has been living off of MJs success for decades and that is why they are suing HBO for $100M. The ugly truth is being heard around the world.
Sad for all concerned, especially MJs victims.
9
Jackson’s pedophilia was clear decades ago. People willfully ignored it.
78
@Imperato He did not fit the profile as was determined in court.
Michael Jackson knew is was very very wrong to take advantage of a child, that’s why he had so many locks on his doors and was so secretive. Probably why he couldn’t sleep at night also. His family, who didn’t care about anyone but protecting their cash cow is very very evil. I won’t even describe them as sick. I was abused as a child, as couldn’t come forward until 20 years later. The family was like the Catholic Church. Glad this is a me too moment
57
Jackson might have been searching for the affection he craved as a child in befriending these boys, in a psychiatric "mirroring" of his past. However understandable and logical that may be, it is absurd to give him so much benefit of the doubt. Once he put one or two boys in that situation and saw the angry reaction from the adults around him, he would have stopped. Instead he continued his behaviour up to and including his last months of preparation for his Q-2 appearances. To spend nights sleeping with a seven year old boy - think of it in relation to an ordinary perpetrator like some neighbour down the street - is indefensible, even if you are related. This man was a paedophile.
22
Jackson got away with his crimes the same way Trump does. He committed them in the open.
The feeling of the author, "A subsequent rewatch of that conversation with Bashir left me feeling mortified, in a way I probably should have felt long ago," will be shared by her colleagues in many news rooms around the country in a few years.
Trump, and many others in his White House, is a sociopath who seems to have led a life of crime for decades. And just like Trump Jackson was given the star-treatment over and over again while evidence of his crimes was clear to anyone capable of the seeing the truth in front of their face.
32
@Choska And, more fundamentally disturbing than your appraisal, which I agree with, is the willingness and even enthusiasm with which millions of our fellow citizens admire and almost worship these people. How is it possible to listen to our dear president without sensing that he is flat out lying about nearly everything? How could fans watch Jackson, knowing the reports of behavior that was at best bizarre, and not see that something fundamental was wrong? These are not only American traits, but we appear to have developed some types of cognitive dissonance that require deep analysis.
26
I was abused as a child too, and it took me to get to my 40s before I was able to tell anyone else -- even a therapist. I was in tears, even though I knew it wasn't my fault.
But through all those years, I purposely said to myself, I'm never going to put anyone else through what I had to live with.
Michael Jackson got a pass because he had lots of money. That really sucks.
389
@ReadingLips
The fame and adulation seem to have been much more influential than mere wealth...
14
@ReadingLips
So so sorry for what you went through and are going through.
22
Aisha Harris writes, "In “Living With Michael Jackson,” the way Jackson speaks about the physical abuse he suffered as a child at the hands of his father, Joseph, only lends more credence to Robson’s and Safechuck’s stories. The three seemed to process their individual traumas in similar ways."
Um no. The three did NOT process their traumas in similar ways. Jackson appears to have processed his trauma by spending his life allegedly sexually abusing children, in plain sight for anybody who cared to look (that Bashir interview screamed pedophilia, honestly), deeply damaging his victims and their families for their entire lives.
Robson and Safechuck processed their traumas by swallowing their pain and confusion until their adulthoods, and then struggling with it. They did not go harm anybody. Now they are sharing their difficult stories, brave acts that finally shines a light on Jackson and the lasting damage of sexual abuse.
They processed their pain, it seems to me, in opposite ways.
454
@Oak Park WriterMom "Similar" is not equal to "the same". Yes, there are similarities to how they processed; however, because the traumas were different in considerable ways.
For example, MJ's trauma was within his family, while the victims' trauma was external from, and partially in conflict with, his family. This is important as Michael felt isolated, whereas his victims had some outside family influence (wives, brothers, sisters).
I think you would understand this better if you understood the complex nature of an abusive relationship rather than simply villanizing the abuser's actions without consideration to cause.
8
@Dan Gibson *correction*- I meant to say, "because their traumas were different in considerable ways, the outcome was different."
6
@Dan Gibson I beg to differ with your distinction between trauma within or without your family. In some ways trauma within your family can be worse - my brothers sexually abused me but I still had to live in the same house, and it was never spoken of.
Sexual abuse is isolating regardless of the perpetrator because you feel dirty and unworthy of love or affection, not because of who the abuser is specifically.
That's not to say that it isn't complex - it is. But Oak Park is correct that MJ processed his abuse in completely unhealthy and abusive ways, while the young men in the film didn't extend their personal pain to abusing others.
There's just no excuse for abuse, period. I didn't choose to be abused, but I did choose not to abuse others.
31
I don't understand how anyone can defend a grown man wanting to share his bed with children that are not in his family. This is not normal – no matter how "creative" someone is.
Would you let you child sleep with a grown man? What circumstance makes that ok?
471
My grown daughters sleep together when they are traveling together, Adamboo.
President Lincoln and other men used to sleep in the same bed in lodging whey they traveled to D.C.
Stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
3
@njglea That is a false analogy. It was commonplace in Lincoln's time to share a bed in lodging. Simply put, the supply of lodgings could not keep up with an ever more mobile population. And siblings sharing a bed when travelling is NOT the same as an adult male sharing a bed with an unrelated child. No amount of self-deception on your part will change that.
281
@njglea The operative word here is "grown" -- Michael Jackson slept with vulnerable children.
146
These two men are exceptionally brave! They will undoubtedly help countless others who have been victims of predators like Michael Jackson. We should all be grateful to them for coming forward and taking the dialogue publicly to the next level. We need all of these "shame" crimes (eg, Catholic Church, pedophiles, sexual abusers) to be out in the open. The more we know what these pedophiles and abusers are, the more we know about how they operate, the better we can fight back. The more victims are able to have a voice, be heard, and be validated the healthier our society can become. Robson and Safechuck are heroes.
If you have any doubt about Michael Jackson, I suggest you google and watch the youtube video of him being interviewed by police where he smiles and giggles, smirks, and squirms throughout the whole thing. He smiles every time he is asked if he is a pedophile or has abused any boys. In fact, he's so excited that he can barely contain his giggles. It's revolting.
21
His defenders retain the faith that Catholic apologists must have held for priests implicated in molestation scandals. No amount of evidence will sway them. And Jackson's defenders will reject any parallel with clergy scandals, and must surely condemn implicated priests with the same ferocity that they defend Michael Jackson.
15
Unfortunately Michael himself may have been abused as a child. And not just by his father. And he was susceptible to this abuse because of the abuse afflicted on him. And, he was more than likely groomed by someone as well (when he was a young boy) ... a vicious cycle.
3
The most shocking moment of "Leaving Neverland" was at the end, when both mothers confronted their responsibility in their sons' sexual abuse. One mother fully accepts responsibility, saying she didn't do her job because she was dazzled by the close proximity to celebrity. The other mom would apparently let the exact same thing happen again as she doesn't see how she had anything to do with it. It's a shocking end to a heartbreaking story.
20
@DMS I think I perceived it the opposite way. The Robson's mother seemed more in touch with her guilt, and bewildered by her behavior, where as the Safechuck's mother I felt paid lip service to guilt but showed almost no emotion.
4
I haven't been sleeping well since watching Leaving Neverland. What I find more disturbing than anything else is how the Jackson family continues to defend a man who was so obviously a sexual predator, a monster who preyed on children. To paint a picture of him as some sort of innocent, asexual, almost mythical being who chose the company of young boys (NOT girls) to the exclusion of everyone else for no other reason than "fun" insults everyone's humanity and intelligence. Their denial is further assault on what is already a damaged collective psyche.
What we need to do as a culture is face the truth and help one another reconcile this truth. We are under the illusion that we know celebrities as people. We do not. Evil people exist and some of them present themselves as innocent, even angelic, as was the case here.
44
Grown men don’t sleep with other people’s little boys and should have raised questions ! Did the Jackson siblings allow their children to sleep in MJ’s bed ... you can bet ... not. I believe these men and shame on their parents for being blinded by money and fame.
20
Michael Jackson may have evaded criminal conviction, but he has not escaped judgment. He was a child molester.
26
Michael Jackson is innocent! Donald Trump is innocent! Same denial, different monster... some people really take hero worship way too far...
23
For years, I thought pedophilia was black and white. Sex with children is wrong. Very sorry to see it is gray for many adults.
Shocking lack of courage from adults.
30
What do you do to treat pedophilia? Can anything be done?
2
@Steve if its hardwired into you there's not much to be done. Control by the individual is the only answer.
2
@Steve I saw some documentary or news piece about an experimental behavioral approach that they were trying with incarcerated child sexual abusers. They agreed to the treatment as part of an arrangement that would provide for possible release if they were deemed to be "cured." Not one of them, if I remember correctly, had ever achieved that goal. And they were routinely getting caught with contraband of various sorts (pictures of children from magazines and what not). So who knows what may happen in the future, but right now there does not appear to be a "cure."
1
@Steve
There doesn't seem to be a cure - but most of them do have self control to be able to choose not to. MJ knew he could get away with it - knowing you cannot get away with it is the best 'cure'.
They've tried even castration (by pedophiles who volunteered to try to make the urge go away). It didn't work.
2
I know someone that was in the court room in the 2005 trial. That person told me Jacko was guilty as sin and was shocked at the testimony of the mother.
31
I saw the documentary the other night and found it compelling. Considering it's a four hour documentary that continually maintains your attention throughout, it's also exceptionally well-made. While many, most notably the Jackson family, have questioned Safechuck's and Robson's veracity, it appears viewers of Leaving Neverland come away from the documentary convinced the two men are telling the truth. Why? Because it's very clear both men have been struggling and living with the chaotic emotional fallout of the abuse they underwent as children for a long, long time. And this is what "Leaving Neverland" gives us an unflinching view of. I find no deception here. And this is the power of the film.
97
@Chris
I too found NO deception. The grooming of both the child AND the parents is astounding.
14
I found myself sympathizing with the victims. I could even understand (but not forgive) the behavior of Jackson as a past victim-of-abuse-turned-abuser. What I still don't understand is how either of the mothers could have put their sons in that position, repeatedly. They were dazzled by celebrity... if they couldn't be famous they could at least be part of the entourage. Jackson's screwed-up childhood contributed to him becomming a pedophilic predator. The mothers had no excuse other than a few dollars and the chance to be in the perimeter of some paparazzi shots.
13
@Greg
What about the fathers of Safechuck and Robson? Don't they bear responsibility, too?
12
If you can somehow, even temporarily, bring yourself to any greater distance away from the MJ spectacle than where you normally live, it casts the situation in such a different light.
I'm a mandated reporter because of my job, so I have some understanding of signs of abuse and a general lay of the land, but I think basically all people understand the cycle of abuse and they all know that MJ famously suffered at the hands of his father as a part of that broader social dynamic.
But step back, if you can at all, for just a second, and imagine a NYT article about a rich and powerful person who built a secure dungeon for the express purpose of sexual violence against children, and behold that you have an author in front of you here who talks about being a fan of this person, an author who searches for the pain in his wistful side glances, and so on down to the gory end of apology after apology. Imagine that any of this is up for debate.
It's really bizarre.
14
I watched the Bashir documentary on first airing. There was a moment with Michael seated on a bench while holding hands with the boy. Michael said something which made me believe his "love" for the child was physical and not an abstraction. The same thing happened when Bill Clinton was seen embracing Monica Lewinisky in a reception line: their public embrace was something more than platonic.
14
I found the stories told by the two men and their families to be very compelling, and I have no reason to believe that the emotionally-damaged MJ was above perpetrating the alleged behavior. But I have three significant problems with the “documentary”:
1. It is hard to overlook the coincidence that the documentary and lawsuit, still in appeal, correspond to the time period when MJ’s bankruptcy was turned into a multi-billion dollar estate fortune. The possibility of a greed motivation is very real, and the documentary provides useful public support for the legal claim.
2. A proper documentary should show all sides of the facts, even if the producer believes that you should see a certain conclusion in those facts. This show was less a documentary than a fire-side chat recitation of views from one perspective (with lots of ominous background sound track and repeated, randomly sprinkled stills or drone footage of people and places that provide no actual documentary information).
3. I do not find credible the extraordinary detail recalled by Robson of his seven-year-old experiences. I realize that trauma can sear certain memories into the brain. But he has detailed recollections of events and conversations that were rather ordinary. Claims of MJ’s behavior from later in his life might be more plausible, but I would be very wary of crystal-clear renditions 30 years hence of a seven-year old.
4
As the director pointed out, what’s the point of interviewing people who weren’t there for the child rapes?
Sure, Jackson has his self-interested defenders, just as a Senator claimed today that Trumped paid off women because he loves his family so much.
So what?
7
@J R
If we were not such an entertainment society, we wouldn't have time to know how these entertainers live. We would just enjoy the product. We wouldn't have parent s who want to be close to fame . Maybe we would have parents who cared for their children and weren't looking for the gravy train.
1
@J R “Alleged child rapes.” And I am not saying that they didn’t happen. But, for example, twice it is mentioned that the housekeeper saw MJ together nude with one of the boys. There’s a witness. Why do we not get one first-hand word in the documentary from this witness? Again, my issue is with the quality of the documentary, not the pursuit of any valid accusations against MJ.
3
I wonder how the people defending Michael Jackson feel about the accusers of Catholic priests? Or is it only their musical hero that gets a pass?
Michael Jackson was a talented man, but he was very screwed up in many ways. Even during his lifetime, it seemed pretty obvious that he was sexually exploiting young boys. As for criticisms of his accusers -- you don't have to be perfect to be a victim.
67
@Liz the justifications and legal strategy used by the Church(es) and the MJ defenders certainly has some similarities.
4
@Liz The priests didn't get a major pass? After decades, probably centuries, spending entire lives abusing numerous boys. Thousands of them? How many priests to date have been arrested?
I wonder if those who vilify MJ have been fighting for justice for the churches many victims.
Michael's advice about not trusting people, especially women, was revealing since his abuser was his father. Yet it speaks to a deeper hurt for many. Michael, like James and Wade, probably felt that his mother didn't protect him from the abuse and should have.
Should we believe Wade and James? Sorry fans, but yes.
We can't discount that both men had eerily similar details without conferring with each other. That's called corroboration. It shows a pattern of behavior or "MO" which kept delivering Michael a successful seduction.
Can we accept two contradicting truths about someone we admire or love? We must for those contradictions happen all the time, in every family and in every community. And to refuse to acknowledge the possibility will do nothing to protect future victims.
121
@Sherrie Yes. See: Catholic church revelations re: priest abuses.
5
Valuable reflections on the legacy of brutal childhood experiences- both as the psychological twist in Michael Jackson's perverse efforts to reclaim his boyhood by 'love affairs' with real boys.
These relationships (to father or molester) are almost always ambivalent, confused and disrupting of adult functioning. Many people think molestation is like assaultive rape- violent & painful.
Apparently, childhood abuse is often characterized by feeling special, loved, colluding in a strange game with perks.
Perhaps MJ actually believed these were benign love affairs because he longed for such experiences when he was 7-14. He created an extravagant fantasyland--the best perks possible.
His family only sees his self-deluding intentions.
44
It's bizarre for me to read people's comments how they don't believe Wade and James. Particularity James, who, as I see it, is a broken man. I too was a victim of childhood sexual abuse and it destroyed me. I had to hide it for years, finally coming clean to just a few people in my life. It is something that haunts me everyday, it has damaged several of my relationships - personal and professional. There were many many times where I just couldn't deal with life and had to isolate until I felt better again. I've had years of therapy and it has helped but it has not and never will take away what happened to me. I can relate to these two guys, big time. People who can't see their truth haven't experienced this type of childhood trauma. Period.
301
@She Exactly. People who have not gone through it do not understand how we can bury it deep inside and not tell people right away. Talking about it does help to heal.
66
@She and B, Thank you very much for your courage in sharing your stories. I believe Wade and James and I believe you. One doesn't need to have been abused to believe survivors, however those who share this particularly damaging history bring a whole other level of complexity to it.
49
@She Not surprising a generation that voted in a celebrity con-artist like Trump believes any nonsense put out in the media without basic questioning of motives or critical thinking in any way.
13
The importance of this documentary, the R Kelly documentary, and all that the Boston Globe and others reported about pedophiles (and hebephiles) is for all of us to recognize the signs of predatory behavior earlier.
There is a very recognizable pattern of grooming and incrementalism when you’re looking from the outside, with the benefit of hindsight.
We all need to be able to recognize when the water in the pot is starting to get warmer, and to recognize when we are the frogs.
106
The pathology was obvious years ago. Now, in addition to the ugliness of Jackson's offenses, we have to make sense of the denial of his fans. The Gardner Street Elementary School in Hollywood honored Jackson with his name on the school auditorium. In 2003, during the earlier outbreak of scruples about the wellbeing of children, the school covered the name. Then in 2010 a petition drive prompted the restoration of the honor and the name was uncovered. Does this renewed interest mean the boards go back up?
53
The oldest tool in the belt of the pedophile is "grooming." So, apparently Jackson attempted to groom the world to accept his pedophile "heaven" at the Neverland Ranch as normal. It worked for some, but for most it was simply outrageous. His family's defense of his behavior is pathetic.
221
@Randall Reed Years ago I met my husband's brother. He was having a "charming" conversation with our seven year old daughter. The hair went up on the back of neck. In the manner of minutes he convinced her that the vacation we were on was just for adults and the only way she would have fun was by being a bad girl. It took days for us to convince her otherwise. My husband thought this was funny. I did not. He has since served prison time for molesting children and is out today but under heavy supervision. It is amazing how people do not trust their instincts when confronted by someone who is obviously creepy.
141
@Randall Reed Yes. The most striking thing I came away from the Oprah special was when Wade said that Jackson had groomed him before he even met him. And when you think about how true that is in the way that Jackson was portrayed to the world as a man who "didn't have a childhood" and "loved being around children" and "built Neverland so that children could have fun there", it was INCREDIBLY chilling. I haven't been able to get Wade's statement out of my head for a few days now.
26
@Kuhlsue Or ignore those instincts. As the mother's did in the case of Jackson's relationships with the young boys. The mother's knew that their sons were sleeping with Jackson.
The mother's seemed to have been motivated by the desire for power, money and fame or just to be near it was sufficient. And these families were able to be very close.
And some of their sons were very successful, particularly Wade.
This is not at all unlike Larry Nassar, the National Gymnastics team doctor who apparently molested the girls with their mother's often present in the room.
Or the national horse riding coach who died about 20 years ago who abused his young charges. Some of the mother's were informed and decided not to believe.
17
I have yet to see part 2 of Leaving Neverland, but part 1 showed me enough to be both saddened and heartened simultaneously. Saddened for the two men who experienced--and clearly continue to be triggered by-- this trauma and for the enabling environment that continued it. Heartened that the world has another, this time epic, example that is difficult to deny of how the cycle of violence can be transmitted, with acceptance, to the next generation almost as if it were genetic.
It's not genetic, it is social and cultural. We need not just trauma informed support services, but more education about healthy relationships, starting in grade school. This is a long term, generational issue (in families, religious institutions, etc.). People need to know abuse when they see and experience it. They need options they can take to intervene safely to protect themselves and other vulnerable people.
Find an abuse prevention agency near you: learn about the signs and support their work.
43
After "Leaving Neverland," I will be the one making the winced, pained expression... every time MJ's music comes on. Still, the only thing worse than the truth was the lies.
72
Although a long-time fan of MJ's, I have always found his behavior to be odd and questionable. I believe his mental state was stunted due to childhood abuse. I feel sorry for him, but that doesn't excuse what I believe was sexual abuse of young boys.
I found the four-hour documentary and Oprah's follow-up show to be excellent and believable (copies of letters, faxes, voicemails).
Wade and James came across as very believable. I do believe they were abused by MJ. They are both on the road to recovery, although a life-long journey.
153
@Claire I'm with you;your comment is on the spot. What I cannot fathom is a mother letting her son spend up to six hours a day on the phone with anyone, MJ or anyone else. Coming home to a roomful of faxes professing love, along with suspicious nicknames should have been terribly disturbing at the least. Yet this mother broke up her family (and dad ended up killing himself) to jump at MJ's call. Even when they arrived in LA and found themselves out of the loop, she had them stay. Certainly MJ bears the responsibility for the abuse, but I think that without this mother, it would not have happened. If her son ever forgives her, it will be a miracle.
11
It's very common for abused children as well as abused spouses to still believe their abuser loves them. That's how abuse works - you aren't a monster all the time, and you groom your victim into believing they are special, that it's just because you love them so much, it's their fault for making a mistake, making the abuser angry, or just because they love you SOOOOO much!
What isn't normal is for people to see and hear all this evidence - and decide to ignore it, because you like the music, and you don't want to recognize that you were wrong when you believed the wrong person.
248
@SusanStoHelit
What isn't normal is for people to see and hear all this evidence - and decide to ignore it
Hmmm... Seems normal for 38% of voters.
41
@Lost in Space
You have to keep in mind the GROOMING. It's part of the excitement for the abuser. Certainly Jackson had all the accessories for it to look "consensual and affectionate." The money, the power, the glitz, the celebrity, the luxury. Then too, there are the memories. Men come back from Thailand having had sex with young girls, and pictures of it to "relive" the "thrill."
1
I don't know what all this proves to regurgitate the crimes of Michael Jackson. The man is dead, let it go. Nothing good is going to come from this.
5
@Kurt Pickard
I think these two men coming forward will help other victims.
212
@Kurt Pickard How about a moment of catharsis for those abused by this child molester?
119
@Kurt Pickard What? This documentary speaks truth to power, gives these victims a voice, encourages other victims to be courageous and speak up, shines a light on a dark side of a megastar, and serves as a warning to others like Jackson. These are all good things.
190
Michael Jackson was BOTH always the fearful child who was safest on stage, and also the adult abuser who lured children into his world and abused them. It is very possible that he didn't truly believe that his actions were abusive - consider that he lived through! but certain that he knew they were illegal,
The real problem is the lack of understanding of the how child sexual abuse is set up, and the depth of the adult's psychological control over the child that develops in such longer term seductions. And the lack of understanding or compassion for the abused child grown to adulthood, who is finally confronting the confusion of wonderful attention and stolen sexual innocence that marked that relationship.
And as long as other adults refuse to see and hear signs of potential abuse, and do not teach children what is appropriate and not, children will always be abused by seductive adults. The power of grooming, and offering rewards for cooperating, are really even more powerful than threats. Consider that one threat was that if the boy told anyone, Michael would also be hurt. He testified for his idol to save Michael. Some perpetrators use real threats of hurt, but the psychological bonding set up holds incredible power.
119
In spite of having the opportunity to express what he's saying now,Robson declined to do so during the trial.He admits to lying then......yet wants us to believe he's telling the truth now.I find his new found expression of the "truth"....higly questionable and motivated by among other thing monetary gain!
2
@james steward Neither of the men are making any money off the documentary. Also, have you watched the documentary? Do you understand that these men were completely brainwashed by MJ as children? Those thoughts don't go away immediately. I'd educate yourself on the effects of sexual abuse before making such comments.
142
@james steward
Then you should do more research about child abuse. This is not uncommon at all.
93
@james steward
I envy your ignorance. Those whose lives have been stunted by sexual abuse are familiar with the shame and self-loathing that follows, and for the rest of one's life. You don't know anything about that, which makes you one of the lucky ones. Robson made it very clear why he lied. It was to protect the life he'd cobbled together after surviving unimaginable child sexual abuse. It was due to his panic that anyone would ever find out. I find it very hard to believe that anyone would not understand that. You have some soul searching to do.
20
I believe victims, men and women. But as disturbing as the allegations in "Leaving Neverland" are, I neverfor a minute believed Wade and James. They--particularly James--strike me as opportunists looking for a platform to gain exposure.
3
@Rich These two men are incredibly brave for having taken the action to tell the truth. It is clear that this is an ongoing trauma from which they will never completely recover, and their commitment to coming 'out' with this horrific tale is obviously painful. The idea that they are doing any of this for money is absurd. There is no amount of money that could assuage the pain they and their families are in. If they were truly money grubbers, they would certainly go after a settlement for more than one million dollars. They are making a statement with this claim, nothing more. I wish them peace and love, real love.
83
@Rich Exposure for what?
28
@Rich Which is interesting, because I sometimes question how ready we are to believe everything and there is no doubt in my mind that these guys are telling the truth. I don't see how any reasonable person could see this and come to any other conclusion.
48
I'm thankful for the documentary. It allows other children of abuse, both sexual and physical, to understand they are not alone. It allows adults who have been confused around their abuse as a child, to get a very clear insight through the lens of these two men.
160