India's act was a frustrated response to decades of terrorist attacks directed by Pakistan towards Indian cities. It's a direct consequence of Pakistan's failure as a stable democracy. Islamic extremists from Pakistan have been responsible for terrorism all over the world. Hopefully, the current conflict leads to a fruitful resolution, and doesn't just fizzle out.
4
Sadly, this is going to blow up because trump will make it so. He came away from the NK summit looking like a fool and he needs to distract from the Cohen testimony. Voila, India/Pakistan. Look for him to puff up his chest over the next few days and paint himself as the only person that can solve the problem. Only he can fix it.
Returning the captured pilot would be a substantial step toward defusing the situation.
1
Indian Modi is promoting extremist Hinduism like ISIS. He shall pay the price of misadventure. He is responsible for Gujrat and Kashmir Muslim atrocities. This is just the start!
Pakistan has mobilized its nuclear launchers towards Hindu populated cities as a counter measure.
5
@Deb Chatterjee
You are living in a GAGA Land. India's technology is nothing compared to Pakistan's technology. If deployed India will be dust and debris in 4 minutes.
3
How about this for a scary thought: a colleague of mine who lives in India described India’s current Prime Minister Modi as “India’s version of Trump.” Oh boy.
4
Trump is no match for Modi. Many Indians, across the religious and caste spectrum, actually view Modi as a sophisticated and charming avatar of Hitler and Mussolini combined, but are afraid to say this in public.
2
It is curious how these things always crop up close to election time. How countries that claim themselves to be civilised become hormonal? I am sure southeast is kerping whole world well entertained.
1
Once again tribal sensitivity is leading to war.Religion is the bane of humanity,it is behind the animosity between the two countries.Lets have the courage to stand up & yell there is no Gods, take away religion and you have indistinguishable human beings, with the same fears & needs,yearning for peace.
1
The Pulwama suicide bombing which killed around 50 Indian para military forces was carried out by a local 20 year old boy, who lived in Pulwama and had been previously tortured by Indian occupation forces. The vehicle was also locally obtained. Indians automatically blamed the Pakistanis, for they just cannot digest the fact that Kashmiris under their occupation are fed up with killings, torture, abuse and maass rapes and are fighting for their freedom.Pakistan had absolutely nothing to do with this locally carried out offensive against Indians. Since Modi is up for re-election he wants to use this opportunity for escalating tensions , prove himself to be a strong leader and try to win another term. Pakistani PM, Imran Khan wants to de-escalate the tensions and has asked for a joint inquiry of the Pulwama incident. However Modi has upped the ante and sent his air force into proper Pakistani territory, beyond the disputed Kashmiri border creating a dangerous precedent. The International community must prevail upon Modi to stop being a mad man frothing at the mouth and start talks with Pakistan. Otherwise the whole region could literally go up in nuclear flames as both sides are armed with nuclear weapons. Solve Kashmir, the elephant in the room and there will be no suicide bombings. Anyway, currently Pakistan has the upper hand, having downed two Indian planes and captured an Indian pilot .Only a dialogue as proposed by Khan can achieve peace in the sub-continent.
1
Don't know what Gandhi was thinking in keeping India together? Religion, Oil, Geopolitics, readiness to play with snakes was difficult to project.
Watch Trump's and Kim's body language, you will learn that they are mere Automatons, puppets.
Dharma is to practiced by True Brahmins and True Kysthrias, Defended with Life, Dharma only belongs to True Bhramins and True Ksyhrias. Hinduism only for True Hindus going forward.
It is curious how countries that claim themselves to be civilised become hormonal like a twenty year old? I am sure southeast is keeping the whole world well entertained by failing to act maturely through peace talks.
Nationalism and religion don't mix and if they do, this is recipe for maximum destruction.
This war will not end until they have exchanged nuclear attacks as they know that due to the short reaction time (about 4 minutes), whoever strikes first has a really good chance to win the conflict by destroying the opponent.
This is not just a game of chicken but a race to prove superiority of one's religion and attached national pride.
On both sides.
And this is why religions zealots should never ever get access to nuclear weapons.
The way this conflict escalates is a very good argument for the solution that was agreed with Iran, no nukes, regardless of what the US has made of it.
In reality these days, Iran seems to be safest place there is as most of its neighbours have either their own nukes or access to nukes.
Especially those like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan who have a shared nuclear program and who will use nukes if other military or political options run out.
The politicians of these countries do not have the same restraints that Westerners or the Chinese have, they expect to get their gratitude in the afterlife.
So they don't care if they survive the conflict or not.
This is the road to WW3 and somebody please stop them.
India needs to have a deep hard look at its policy towards their controlled Kashmir region. If you treat the people of Kashmir the way Israel treat the Palestinians there is bound to be retaliation against your forces. You cannot trample on people's dignity and respect. Look at Duerte in Philippines, he is a smart leader and put his ego down, and decided to include the rebel leaders of the Mindanao region into the government so his country can have peace, but India just continues to build military presence in the Kashmir region and shoot unarmed Kashmiri protesters who are demanding rights. Why aren't these issues happening in the Pakistan controlled region? why isn't Pakistan constantly fighting the local Kashmiris in its controlled region? Why is only India having to battle its controlled Kashmiri population? Because Indian government is not doing something right! Do the right thing India if you want the peace of mind.
Pakistan is a rogue state and horrible ally of America. Pakistan can never win any war against India including nuclear. As such it has resorted to proxy war against India for decades without much success. If it resorts nuclear war, it will be wiped off fully.
Pakistan has its eyes on Kashmir state since 1947 thinking that it’s predominantly Muslim area but the fact is that Kashmir region’s majority is Muslim whereas Hindus form the majority in Jammu and Buddhists form the majority in Ladakh. All of these being very strategic areas India simply can’t handover it on silver platter to Pakistan.
Some people suggested that Independent Kashmir is the only solution so that Kashmir people can be happy. It’s not that simple. How can Independent Kashmir survive between two arch rivals ? How can Kashmir operate independently without any financial resources. Who will pay ? How about other complicated problems like water, electricity etc ?
Prime Minister Imran Khan has practically no powers in Pakistan. It’s the military that decides everything there. Whatever he says has no value. As long as countries like America and China support a terrorist country like Pakistan there can never be any peaceful solution for this grave problem.
If Pakistan really wants peace with India, it should keep its hands off from Kashmir and it should completely eliminate all terrorists puerely in its interests.
3
this is scary. Both sides have nukes. I'm not sure they have the discipline not to use them.
Make no mistake. The Kashmir imbroglio will not go away no matter of what ever India or Pakistan or Kashmir people
"For over a decade, India has been in the bull’s eye of both al Qaeda and the global jihadist syndicate that has its’ hide outs in Pakistan and Afghanistan. In spite of horrifying terrorist spectacles the Indian people and India’s democracy have not been terrified into defeat. The people of Mumbai in particular have risen time and again from terrorist attacks that would shake any other city to its core. The terrorists who attacked Mumbai have tried to break the morale of the city that is at the center of India’s economic renaissance and its cultural life. They have failed before and will fail again". https://www.brookings.edu/articles/terrorism-in-india-and-the-global-jihad/
India has been a target for al Qaeda and the global jihadist movement for decades. Its self professed goal is to create an Islamic state in all of south and central Asia.
It's horribly simplistic to think that resolution Kashmir problem will usher in peace and prosperity!
3
India and Pakistan have been at each other's throat over Kashmir for more than 71 years. The main product of the region is cahmir wool, prized the world over. What happens to the poor goats when they are in the cross-fire of the two adversaries?
I am quite shocked by the language being used here by some of the commentators.
Of course, both sides accuse each other of harbouring terrorists. The Pakistanis have an Indian spy/terrorist in their custody who was directly responsible for planning and killing thousands of civilians over the course of several years, not to mention other incidents including ‘train bombings’ in India which were debunked by British and other western agencies to be staged for local political consumption.
And the Indians claim they have proof of the other side’s involvement even though most of those actors are or have been home-grown, but just happen to belong to the minority (read: non-Hindu) community.
Anti-Muslim and Anti-Sikh sentiment runs deep in India. Sikhs were subjected to the violent aftermath of this sentiment in early 80s and Muslims have been feeling the brunt of it since the British split up the two countries in the 40s in India. Of course, those that left the country to form Pakistan have to now contend with nefarious, terrorist attacks from both sides, directly from the Indians to the east (indiscriminate unprovoked shelling targeting civilians and incursions) and indirectly from the western side through Afghanistan with Indian proxies.
The hatred runs deep on both sides and won’t pacify until Kashmir issue is resolved once and for all.
Regardless of the past, it’s time to forge a new path of peace, not just for the region, but for all of humanity.
2
If Trump were not in office, this would be the lead story online and on Page One of tomorrow’s print edition of The Times. However, because we’re dealing endlessly with the felonious misdeeds of a corrupt administration, we’re immersed in the maelstrom of Trump angst. And unfortunately, he is the least capable person on the planet to deal with the rising tensions between India and Pakistan. Such a pity — on multiple levels.
My father always told me that Kashmir was one of the most beautiful places in the world. It is a tragedy that it has been a battleground for so long. Surely both countries would have more to gain by figuring out a peaceful solution than by continuing their constant and expensive war.
1
Over the past 70 odd years, in the midst of wars and terror strike, India has in good spirit initiated many friendly measures in political, social and economic spheres.
But sadly, Pakistan for some strange reason has never reciprocated them.
Unless Pakistan is forced to change the state policy of abetting violent ideologies, the future won't be much different.
1
Pakistan is only looking for de-escalation now because they want to get out with as few concessions as possible, AKA they aren't interested in doing anything about the terrorist groups that work openly there.
While I don't want it to be a war, I think India has to put it's foot down. They've endured multiple terrorist attacks with sometimes hundreds of casualties and turned the other cheek every time.
Either Pakistan admits their clear connection to terrorism and actually do something to break it up, or face tensions that will continue to escalate till there is a real full blown war, it may not be tomorrow, the next week, year or decade, but these tensions will only increase as SST activities increase.
3
Prime Minister Imran Khan doesn't control the military; rather the military helped him ascend power in the last elections by imprisioning the last elected prime minister Sharif. No civilian government in Pakistan's history has completed its term. The army runs foreign policy, and the army does not want to see peace in the region, as that will eviscerate its power. So it continues promoting "proxy wars" in India and Afghanistan. Any solution to Kashmir (even if possible) will not be the end of problems. Nothing will be served by the prime ministers of the two countries talking unless the Pakistani military is on board, and that is totally unlikely.
A nuclear catastrophe in the region is highly possible, and could cause global famine and billions of deaths. Too much is at stake. the US can help by naming a special envoy to deal in the short term with the current situation. Someone well respected. Nikki Haley could be very good. Maybe even Hillary or Bill Clinton if the current administration is willing to do this.
In the longer term, the solution is Pakistani denuclearization. Pakistan has no money and will sell the bomb to Saudi Arabia or another country in a minute, and that will the end of Middle East. North Korea got its nuclear technology from Pakistan. Too much is at stake globally for the present situation to continue.
7
I think this is the usual political theater in that part of the world prior to national elections. I am really skeptical of the whole deal. The attack on the army occurred less than a month ago, then there is media hype, followed by the usual cross border attacks and more political drama on both sides, which seems much too measured. This is just another nationalistic ploy of the strongmen to secure their vote bank.
They didn’t even properly investigate the original attacks before going on this alleged air strike. Too hasty for a mature country like India.
3
@Steve Fankuchen
Yes, a Bangladesh type model for an independent Kashmir might suit both the geographical and political demography considerably. Indeed, it has to - anything other than that would be disastrous to both the countries as neither can afford the occupation and the expensive maintenance of status quo any longer.
The commitment to an independent Kashmir when no country is allowed to leverage it to its own advantage is a best zero-sum gain equilibrium solution for all the regional interests.
3
These are all highly unfortunate incidents. However, this much seems clear. So long as Pakistan continues to agonize over the progress of its Southern neighbor while at the same time making meager attempts to improve the economy and infrastructure for its people, the kind of rascality that resulted in the killing of the Indian soldiers, the bombing of the Taj in Mumbai or the raid on the Indian parliament will only continue to grow. And at that rate, regardless of whether Hindu musclemen are in power in India or a loose coalition of aimless secularists, India and Indians will continually get outraged and the more peaceful sensibilities will continue to take a hit.
The US shares a fair share of culpability in all this. Much of this is a flow down of the mindless policies of Ronald Reagan via his support of Zia Ul Haq and the Mujaheddin. It is unfortunate that this flow down is having a negative effect on the Pakistani people, the vast majority of whom are peace loving people who are no strangers to professing a love for many things Indian including food, music, movies and cricket. It goes the other way around too. Imran Khan was and is still enormously popular in India.
India and Pakistan, for all their mutual ferociousness, are like first cousins. Drop the silly show of bravado and start talking. Only via shared dialogue can they mitigate the scoundrels in Pakistan or the roguish Pakistani army which by the way sheltered Osama Bin Laden for more than a decade.
3
Once again the India-Pakistan border is the most dangerous spot on earth. During the Clinton years, Deputy SecState Strobe Talbott devoted extraordinary energy to keep a full scale war, which could have gone nuclear, from happening.
While I have no doubt SecState Pompeo and National Security Advisor Bolton are trying to tamp down tempers, the Trump administration, which has the attention span of a puppy, is likely to have been caught off guard by India's sudden retaliation for the Kashmiri terrorist attack, which was obviously staged from Pakistan.
The situation has changed from the 1990s. The U.S.is much closer to India and our relations with Pakistan are under more strain. Arguably,China is now Pakistans' patron. Perhaps the U.S should encourage China to urge Pakistan to curb the terrorists its intelligence service has nurtured.
If this remains an aerial exchange, nuclear use is unlikely, but if ground forces go to war, the world may witness the first use of nuclear weapons in anger since Nagasaki. Needless to say, a nuclear exchange would be devastating to both.
2
Our news organizations also seem to have the attention spans of puppies, completely fixated on Cohen and Trump while the subcontinent inches towards war...
Pretty crafty way to win elections for Mr. Modi.
Usually beating the war drums or finding a ‘minority’ scapegoat works for any populist leader, but especially so in a polarized setting (Hindu-Muslim) like India.
It’s a complex situation in Kashmir, where an ‘independence’ struggle dating back to the 50’s is being blamed on India’s eastern neighbour and the non-Hindu Kashmiris. The Europeans Jews went through his type of torture and subjugation in Nazi-Germany.
And for those trying to sum this up to a ‘zero sum’ game of dollars and US Aid have clearly no idea of the history or the dynamics at play there. It was only because of these so-called ‘noncompliant Taliban’ and this ‘rogue’ state, Pakistan that the Soviets were kicked out of Afghanistan with CIA coordinating and Uncle Sam footing the bill. Without these annoying Pakistanis and Saudi blessing, the Soviets wouldn’t have been defeated. And ironically enough, this ‘rogue’ state is again called upon to negotiate a truce between these Taliban/Haqqani network, Uncle Sam and the Afghan government. If this ‘rogue’ state is really so useless and ungrateful, the current Admin. should cut its losses and move on and find another ally in the region that has some experience and realpolitik with these ‘unruly’ elements.
Here, in the West, what made us different from the rest of the world in the past was our quest for values of honesty and accountability—ideals that now seem to be in short supply on this side of the Atlantic.
7
Pakistan has a proven track record of lying from OBL to Mumbai attacks. So why would you believe them now. They already changed their story three times about captured pilots and downed plans, and you quite them like they are a credible source.
7
@VJ
Yet whatever they provided they provided with evidence. Indias gov't made claims of bombing training center when even western analyst believe the camps were moved from there and no damage occurred. and furthermore how could you even quantify the dead bodies at night after once dropped a payload even US isn't that hasty to make a claim India govt claims they shot down F-16 without any sort of evidence and the fact are clear that F-16 is clearly superior to it.
1
This kind of conflict is exactly why the UN was created. Where are they?
3
Unfortunate that so many of your readers are either ignorant about the political history of the Indian subcontinent or otherwise there would be no posturing towards moral equivalence of India and Pakistan, the former being a secular democracy and the other, a rabid anti-Hindu, failed state that harbors terrorists. Also, Kashmir has been purged of Hindus. Anyone pontificating that people in Kashmir ought to decide are again ignorant about the course of history there. Incidentally, such demands in turn will spurn Hindus to wonder whether they ought to use the same test about majoritarianism in the rest of India, leading to disastrous results for minorities, including Muslims and Christians. Perhaps the fact that one lives in the West doesn't automatically give them the right to look down on "those" people, which is how most commentators come off here. It is not always about American "leadership" or western sensibilities and so called enlightened attitudes saving the day.
19
@MP
you claim others are ignorant yet most of your answer is biased towards your subjectivity. and let me take you stance in a benefit if one is anti-hindu,is the other one not anti-muslim? you said none know the history of Kashmir yet you pointed no valid evidence of it . you said Kashmir has been purged of hindus, but the talk of referendum in Kashmir dates back to 1948 the year after both countries got independent. so when did this "purge" come to be?
the reason a conflict exist is because the majority of population of Kashmir was muslim and the raja of it was a hindu. thats how you get opposing views. the Muslims wanted to be with muslims and the king wanted Kashmir to be a part of the newly minted hindu state
and don't even go to the "secularity " of India where Sikhs holy places are bombed, muslims are lynched for eating beef, mosques are burnt christians are tortured. every nation has skeletons in the closest don't hide ones while bring the other's out
1
The rogue nation of Pakistan is hiding behind nuclear threats to harbor terrorists, including JeM that was responsible for the recent terror attack in India, and among others, beheading of US journalist Daniel Pearl. Pakistan has exported more terrorism to other countries than any other country, including Iran and North Korea. The only long-term solution is sanctions like those that were imposed on Iran some years ago, until Pakistan cleans up its act.
10
interestingly, I do not believe the plane in the photos is a MiG-21...that landing gear looks nothing like MiG-21 landing gear, weird..
3
I absolutely agree, looks more like fixed landing gear
1
@John
Their one government confirmed it was a MIG
1
Pakistan and India currently have the best leaders in Prime ministers Imran Khan and Narendra Modi, respectively. It is time for them to meet with the urgency of now to resolve their disputes. They have both met before when Imran was member of Parliament and there is mutual respect for each other. Imran Khan made a very reasonable speech inviting Modi to have a dialog on all disputes.
Both countries have to chill out and talk peace. War and conflicts have unpredictable consequences and costs. It is in the best interest of both countries to continue on a path to peace that the late Prime minister of India, Atal Bihari Vajpayee had initiated around the turn of this century. The US Secretary of State has already spoken to both prime ministers and asked them to resolve their differences through dialog and Trump has already warned Pakistan to eliminate the terrorist operating from their soil. The former US ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley has also reaffirmed commitment to unite against terrorists and stopping aid to countries sponsoring terrorists.
One would hope that after the denuclearization of the Korean peninsula talks in Hanoi that the Trump administration will actively work for peace on the Indian subcontinent.
4
The many Indians and Pakistanis I have met are peaceful, reasonable people. Although their religions are different this is not the cause of the conflict. The fundamental mistake was the Partition itself, which promised a peaceful homeland but created two governments that find it all too easy to win popular support by pointing to the other nation as an enemy. Leaders of good will on both sides who campaigned for peace were assassinated by extremists. India today is still plagued by internal ethnic conflict, but its ethnic groups do not have armies and nuclear weapons and conflicts are settled without war. That would probably still be the situation today throughout the subcontinent if the nation had never been divided.
4
@Dan Woodard MD
And the best relationship between Indian and Pakistani community is between physicians. They have the best of relationship, attend each other parties, the Pakistani physicians who pretends to be non-alcoolic, drinks in their Indian friends home, and the Indians who pretends to be vegetarians, eat meat in Pakistani physicians home. None of them ever discuss politics only how to exchange more referrals to each other and make more money and show off their newly boughts autos and luxury homes.
3
@Dan Woodard MD
You are dead wrong if you think this is not about religion. The fact is most of Pakistani Muslims especially the elites, think nothing of Hinduism. That is one of the core reasons of conflict.
Even Kashmiri separatists want to separate from India because - in their words - “we want to have an Islamic way of life”. If not that what else is kashmir is fighting for?
We have been paying Pakistan for access to Afghanistan for years. Meanwhile the ISI has funded and trained and equipped and harbored the Taliban and other terrorists we have been fighting in Afghanistan. We in return have conducted a bombing campaign by drones against terrorist targets in Pakistan. Causing many Pakistani civilian casualties along with many terrorists. There is a de facto state of war between Pakistan and the US.
We should be firmly supporting India while working at persuading them not to initiate a nuclear war.
8
There is not a de facto state of war between USA and Pakistan. Their government is untrustworthy and security services deeply corrupt, but we give them lots of $, equipment and military training as an Ally.
We are here today in this charged situation due to India’s refusal to talk on Kashmir and other issues in general. They keep refusing the UN resolutions on Kashmir and tell the world that its bilateral issue but they won’t talk with the other party about it and in the meanwhile half a million troops in Kashmir are pushing the populace to brink. JeM might have provided the support but the suicide bombing was done voluntarily by a Kashmiri, who according to NYT article was abused by Indian forces. PM Khan since he has taken over has offered peace talks multiple times and they have been rejected each time by India with bogus reasons. Its simple, anti-Pakistan agenda sells in India and its election year.
On other side, Pakistan has failed to reign in or destroy these jihadi networks that are remnants of afghan war, created to serve an agenda by US, Saudis. Recently, Pakistan fought a bloody internal war against these elements in last 6-7 years, losing thousands of civilians and military personnel, suffering through incidents like APS massacre, Karachi airport bombings, multiple suicide bombings etc. Now things are looking up somewhat and PM Khan has been trying to fix the economy and bring stability back. Hence, there is no way that Pulwama attack timing helps Pakistan, in fact it could put the potential multi-billion dollars investment in jeopardy.
So in this conflict, no one is winner, both countries need to give peace talks a chance and stay away from war-mongering.
6
Didn’t Pakistan Harbor Osama Bin Laden 2 miles from Pakistan’s West Point style military academy? Pakistan was a deserted nothing created in 1947. It will be a haven for unhappy boys growing up to be terrorists until a new country is created
9
This is pretty convenient timing given Modi's elections are in 2 months.
Good way to whip up nationalist sentiment and win 2019.
3
I hope these two countries could someday stop fighting for a useless land. The land dispute was intentionally left behind by the British to keep its former colonies in disarray. One can see similar situations at almost every former British colonies, such as between Iran and Iraq. The Rohingya crisis in Myanmar also has the British finger prints on. The Rohingya muslin is not native in Myanmar. They were introduced into Myanmar by the British to dilute local resistance during the colonial age.
7
I have thought for several decades that the India-Pakistan perpetually simmering and intermittently boiling over conflict was by far the likeliest place that nuclear weapons would actually be used. Both countries seemed quite capable politically and culturally of thinking of nukes as usable weapons, not just as a deterrent.
The non-proliferation momentum that prevailed for decades across both national and international political lines (with the possible exception of Pakistan passing technology to North Korea) is on the verge of being undone. North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and who knows where else are rationally (from a regime stability perspective) being encouraged to become nuclear powers. Trump alone is not the fault. Others, such as George W. Bush and his invasion of Iraq, clearly demonstrated to smaller, autocratic regimes that actually possessing nukes would be an excellent defense against regime change.
Non-proliferation of nuclear weapons is in every country's interest. However, it is not in the interest of every regime. When nukes were solely the province of the military "big boys" that had regimes stable enough to guarantee command and control of the weapons, of their related technology, and of the businesses which could profit from proliferation, things were plausibly stable, even with "mutually assured destruction" as the constraint.
India and Pakistan began the descent. We have now gone from deterrence to the consideration of nukes as usable weapons.
3
@Steve Fankuchen: "Both countries seemed quite capable politically and culturally of thinking of nukes as usable weapons, not just as a deterrent." That is racist. Pakistani leadership maybe lacking in good judgement otherwise it wouldn't be the terrorist haven that it is and the home of OBL. There are clearly some hotheads in that Islamic theocracy but not secular, democratic India.
Do you know that India has a voluntarily imposed "no first use" policy for nukes? As for the use of nukes the only country to have ever used nukes is the USA.
3
MiG 21? Perhaps India needs to invest in something from the 21st century.
5
Pakistan knows it doesn't have as much to lose since it's a rogue and failing state, India on the other hand has to be very careful in their next chess move as they have much more at stake: rising economy, increasing middle class, increasing educated population, rising role on the global stage, large MNF presence in the country, etc.
Pakistan's greatest achievement is their military control and that's it. They would love to defeat India militarily, they have lost every time they have fought with India. India has many higher aspirations than just defeating Pakistan.
Too bad Pakistan is not willing to compete/battle with India in the marketplace, they would rather foster terrorist groups and have their military run their country. Hopefully, the people of Pakistan will wake up and see they are being played by their own government not India. Wouldn't you rather be competing for economic dominance rather the number of nuclear heads you own?
Unfortunately, this is a lose lose situation for India. Go to war and this will take India off its track for economic progress, don't go to war then you anger the public who is rightfully tired of the constant attacks from Pakistan. For Pakistan it's a win win situation, go to war and they can continue their rhetoric that India is after them, don't go to war they can say look how weak India is.
Praying for peace for all of us!
8
These situations do not grow out of a vacuum. In the long past, India existed as a region with Hindu then Muslim rulers. There were periods of war but also long periods of peace and prosperity and trade. It was the British who decided to play the religious card and divide the region, leaving behind a mess as their empire collapsed. Karma has a long arc, but look at Britain now! More recently, the United States and the USSR decided to play power games with Pakistan as the tool... look at where that landed everyone... a perpetual war in Afghanistan and a breeding ground for Islamic terror in Pakistan, a nation now armed to the teeth thanks to the United States. Wasn't Bin Laden enough to take stronger action against Pakistan? And now that the US has finally given up on Pakistan, the Chinese have moved in. In all this time, India has been making it's own way, sometimes chaotic and muddled, but always democratic and secular. And in all that time, India has been subject to Pakistan sponsored and aided terrorism. What do you expect them to do?
13
India cannot let go of Kashmir because:
Karakoram Highway: Constructed by China, it runs from Xinjiang to Gilgit Baltistan (Pakistani Kashmir) which borders Indian Kashmir. China can easily extend the highway, once entire Kashmir is in Pakistani control and can roll tanks into Delhi easy-peasy. India will basically lose it's natural Himalayan defense.
Indus (Sindhu) waters: Indus valley river system is shared by India and Pakistan. As China controls Tibet, where other major Indian rivers originate, India's only leverage is Indus.
5
@Vasantha Ramnarayan
Not so easy-peasy Vasantha if you blow the road up in those places where it cannot be bypassed. Thats easy-peasy.
As a Kashmiri, I seek independence from both India and Pakistan. There is no other solution because ego on both sides would not let Kashmir be part of one country. Both have nuclear weapons and threatens each other every other day. Soldiers and civilians die on LOC for the past 70 years because of the incompetent politicians on both sides of the border.
Kashmir is for Kashmiris - that includes Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims and everyone else. Those who say Kashmir was Hindu majority and insurgents came on the power of sword and changed the Hindu majority to minority etc are still living in past. During partition, millions of people were forced to move to India or Pakistan. We will never find a solution if we live in the past. Accept today's reality; that Kashmiris want independence and that is the only solution.
Fake news is as dangerous as war because misleading could end up escalating this issue. After this recent escalation, it's very disappointing to see general public trolling and finding humor in this warmongering.
Let's talk to each other respectfully, sensibly and with the intention to educate people about ongoing issues. Let's find a way to peace rather than finding a reason to hate. Let's move on from the horrific past and find a solution to bring peace for the sake of humanity.
10
@Usman Kashmir does not belong to India nor to Pakistan. Kashmir belongs to the people of Kashmir. They are the ones who should decided their future through a free and fair democratic means without Indian-Pakistani over lording the process.
@Usman The Hindu minority in Kashmir has been brutally massacred, persecuted and made to flee since 1989. Your description of Kashmir makes it like any other state in India where Muslims live in peace and have prospered. They are Bollywood superstars, national cricket team players (even captains), police officers, armymen and 3 of India's presidents were muslims. What is different about Kashmiri muslims?
3
@Usman Dude do you really think Pakistan or China will let Kashmir independent if India decides to do so ? The moment India if it decides to let go of Kashmir I am certain that either of the two nations would try and rule the state, if not for Kashmir but for control against India. You are certainly dreaming if you think otherwise.
1
In the end the terrorist seems to have achieved their objective. Both countries have been plagued by violent terrorism. Both countries have extraordinary poverty that could be alleviate if they chose not to spend nearly $15 billion per year on weapons. Like it or not, one can say these two leaders elected democratically and both had a vision to improve their economies. Yet, foolishly, fell prey to the nihilistic ideas of those terrorists. Both they can step back and choose to meet - as leaders who come from similar cultures, who eat the same food, speak the same language and dance to the same music, two leaders who should never be at war but strive to do their best to alleviate poverty and bring peace. All we can do, and must do, is to create a sense and an environment that boldly states that civility and diplomacy is not a sign of weakness.
1
Pakistan feels it can act with impunity. The main culprit in this is the US. For decades the US provided military assistance to Pakistan, ostensibly to form a buttress against China. China has countered this by befriending Pakistan as a counter to India with which China has frosty relations. Then Pakistan provided all necessary cover for the US while it armed the mujahideen against the Soviets in Afghanistan. Finally, in spite of the Pakistan intelligence services support of the Taliban against the US, the US still treats Pakistan with the same reverence as it does Israel. So why should Pakistan not feel it can act with impunity?
3
Pakistan rampantly uses non state actors to terrorize countries. And never takes any action against terrorists who kill innocents with impunity.
On papers, Pakistan is a force against terrorism but in reality its the centre of terrorism. Which sane country in the world has huge compounds for breeding terrorists. In their view, 9/11 is conspiracy, Mumbai attacks are conspiracy, Laden was never found and killed by US Military, and Malala staged her death to get fame.
We want education and peace in region. Pakistan should cooperate with Afghanistan, Iran, India and all of its neighbors to weed out terrorism.
For decades they've gotten away with nuclear blackmail. Not anymore. If US can't finish the menace of terrorism, India will. We want south asia to be known for Gandhis and Malalas not as an epicenter of terrorism.
34
In November 2008, over a four-day period, 10 members of the Lashkar-e-Taiba (an Islamic terrorist organisation that are based in Pakistan) carried out a series of 12 coordinated shooting and bombing attacks lasting four days across Mumbai.
9 of the 10 attackers were killed. Over 300 people wounded. 174 people killed, which included 26 foreigners. Of those killed, it became apparent that notable figures in business, media, and security services were targeted - which suggests that the terrorists had help from a major, very sophisticated, well funded organization that is usually associated with nations!
Worse yet, dead hostages bodies showed torture and disfigurement by their radical Islamic captures!
India showed restraint and tried the diplomatic angle with Pakistan. It should be pointed out that over time, Pakistan's actions and cooperation can only be described as dismal!
With history in mind, it should be pointed out correctly that Pakistan does in fact harbor numerous terrorist groups within its borders!
This simple fact can not be disputed or denied!
In fact, many intelligent agencies from other countries, including the US, have noted that these terrorist groups are receiving support from Pakistan government security agencies!
Countries - state sponsors of terrorism - like Pakistan, North Korea, China, Russia and others are the real threats to our planet and as a result - world peace is nothing but a fleeting dream!
7
Who shot which plane down is unclear but facts are facts. The facts here are that 40 Indian military officers were killed by a terrorist group that moves freely in Pakistan. The fact is that a Pakistani based terror group claimed responsibility. Pakistan has done nothing to control terrorists that operate on its soil and the result have been attacks not just in India but in the United States also. As Americans we forget quickly that Osama bin Laden lived and operated in Pakistan for years well known to their government. India has every right to defend itself and proactively dismantle groups which kills its citizens. Somehow, those on this thread and in the west think these actions are reserved for those in certain countries. No one has questioned the US when we have retaliated for attacks.
10
This is madness form both sides. India and Pakistan need to sit down and talk about what can be done going forward. Unfortunately the politicians have a different agenda- they need some issue to get masses and votes.
Both nations have nuclear stockpiles and abundance of ignorance, illiteracy, conniving politicians, fake nationalism, dumb headed ideas of superiority, rampant corruption, lawlessness, real poverty and huge social and economic issues.
Wisdom or pragmatism really is in short supply in both nations.
Nothing is going to come out of this escalation of hostilities except more lives lost and military brinksmanship.
I do not know when people on the subcontinent would wake up and hold their politicians, institutions and military accountable. The governments in both countries repeatedly fail to clean up the rampant corruption, lawlessness and improve the lot of common people- so they foment and create pseudo crises in name of religion and nationalism to distract people from real issues- which go unaddressed.
Never underestimate those in power to make things worse !
3
The matter of Kashmir was ripe for a solution in 1971 when India decisively won and broke up Pakistan's east wing away and captured some 100,000 Pakistani fighters. Bhutto was then the Pakistani PM and he begged Indira Gandhi " pleasse release my soldiers or I will be shot". He came to Simla and got his soldiers released but what did Indira get? really nothing!. Indira could have had Bhutto accept India's Kashmir position and that would have at least been the beginning of the end. But Indira's assistant Haksar was a Kashmiri and some other week-kneed advisers did not imagine ahead, and Bhutto's flattery of their pride got in their way. Then in Kargil, why did not India go across the line of control when they were chasing the Pakistanis? There is no control line in time of war. But Vajpayee was perhaps reading some scripture on Dharma that would not allow that. ALL big time mistakes by foggy India minds who in delirium believe that their enemy could be a friend until the reverse happens and repeat the same. Modi is the inheritor of all this history. He is tough but cannot fight an all out war. The only solution to India_Pak problem now is a long drawn one, for India to further weaken Pakistan so that Baluchi, Sindhi and Pakhtuni people who are striving fro freedom, do become free. This will leave the false vanity of Lahore and area around it to call itself Pakistan or whatever new name they would want to call it by.
8
Here is the dream of Hindu nationalists: 150 specially trained Indian commando unit strike at all known Pakistani nuclear arms depots and launch sites. The Indian Air Force simultaneously bombs the runways of all Pakistani airfields capable of supporting jet aircraft. Then the Indian Army launches an all-out armored and mechanized infantry assault on Pakistan with the goal of destroying Pakistani military capability. Unfortunately to paraphrase General Ripper, Indian civilian casualties will be 20-30 million and a Pakistani insurgency into India for 100 years. There is no solution that cures these countries of their hatred. It will last at least another 71 years. Perhaps later generations will find peace.
1
India has miscalculated here— it has reacted emotionally to an obvious terrorist event.
The way to win is somehow cleave off the military (and more specifically ISI) from the rest of the population. With its strike, India has in fact rallied most Pakistanis to resist India.
The actual mechanisms for India to cleave off ISI were already in motion— economic and political support for Afghanistan’s government vs Taliban, partnering with Iran as another thorn on Pakistan’s west side, the ability to influence world powers to take their side particularly the US and Europe, and even recent rapprochement with Saudi Arabia, Pakistan’s guarantor. The only pressure point that is missing is engagement with the Pakistani populace, which will be required it is going to be successful.
India’s actions are therefore tactical, largely for domestic consumption, and in support of Modi’s re-election.
3
Another escalation in a long series of imbroglios between the two impoverished nations.
According to BBC:
October 1947: First war between India and Pakistan over Kashmir just two months after they become independent nations.
August 1965: The neighbours fight another brief war over Kashmir.
December 1971: India supports East Pakistan's bid to become independent. ...The war ends with the creation of Bangladesh.
May 1999: Pakistani soldiers and militants occupy Indian military posts in Kargil mountains. India launches air and ground strikes and the intruders are pushed back.
October 2001: A devastating attack on the state assembly in Indian-administered Kashmir kills 38. Two months later, an attack on the Indian parliament in Delhi leaves 14 dead.
November 2008: Co-ordinated attacks on Mumbai's main railway station, luxury hotels and a Jewish cultural centre kill 166 people. India blames Pakistan-based group Lashkar-e-Taiba.
January 2016: Four-day attack on Indian air base in Pathankot leaves seven Indian soldiers and six militants dead.
18 September 2016: Attack on army base in Uri in Indian-administered Kashmir kills 19 soldiers.30 September 2016: India says it carried "surgical strikes" on militants in Pakistani Kashmir. Islamabad denies strikes took place.
This timeline unfortunately suggests two possibilities. One, Pakistan’s ISI has aided terrorists and playing a double game. Or, two, they can’t control the terror it’s groups within their territory.
3
@D Reese
Terrorism is a low-cost high-yield option for an unanswerable and unelected military apparatus.
1
Pakistan encourages and supports terror groups to attack India in their hopeless pursuit of Kashmir to which they have no legitimate claim..
3
I don’t know about you guys, but the irony of what this conflict could turn into, especially while Donald Trump is in Vietnam making friends with “Chairman Kim,” might just cause me to laugh myself to death.
1
What exactly were the Pakistani aircraft targeting? Terrorist training camps in India/Indian controlled territory?
3
@Bramha
Nope, your aircrafts violated Pakistani air space and shot down in the process.
1
Sounds like Kashmir needs to be its own country.
1
Just wanted to cite some facts which are missed amidst all the discussion as without a context any News can create a one sided impression.
JEM or Jaish-e-Mohammad was created at the behest of Pakistani Military to fight India. Its founder Masood Azar is a UN EU and US designated terrorist. He was captured in 1990s in Kashmir but Pakistan backed hijackers hijacked an Indian passenger plane in 1999 and got him released of along with Umar Said Sheikh who was later involved in abduction and killing of American journalist Danial Pearl. After numerous proofs, appeals sand rounds of dialogue made over last 20 years, Masood Azar is still free in Pakistan.
The 26/11 attack on Mumbai by terrorists who India, US and EU say was carried out by Pakistani terrorists in which over 166 people including Americans died, was carried out by Lashkar E Taiyaaba (LET). Its founder Hafiz Said on whose head the US has put a 5 million dollar bounty roams free in Pakistan. During the recent Pak Military managed elections in which the army helped Imran Khan win by silencing all opposition and media, LET founder actually floated a political party. India and the United States have tried for many years to secure action against this guy.
There is somehow a tendency to link and justify all this terrorism as a consequence of the Kashmir Issue. Terrorists and their sponsors always give such reasons. It is unfortunate for the media to endorse that reasoning.
6
Hooray! This gives our nation hope. These two countries' people look exactly the same and they still hate each other.
As India's youth celebrated a fake attack on Pakistan, its valuable pilot's life was lost. Being an American and following this particular tale of events, is'nt it time to call out Indian bullying of a much smaller nation?
3
@Swq
Small means nothing when it comes to nuclear blackmail. Have you looked at North Korea vs USA?
Stop deflecting.
3
@Swq Terrorists in Afghanistan perpetrated 9/11. America invaded that country with it's full military might and then went onto invade Iraq as well. Of course, the magnitude of the recent terrorist attack on India and it'ss response don't compare but was the American invasion bullying of those two countries? I think you need some history and context to make a meaningful comment.
1
@Swq He is in Pakistan custody and the world is watching. If your Prime Minister is really serious about peace, this young office should return home safely. Don't do another Lieutenant Saurabh Kalia.
1
Fine, now don't sell them replacements.
The only good part, if it can be so called is that Pakistan May now try to confront the terrorist. If India did nothing Pakistan would have no incentive to control and destroy terrorist network.
Be as it may I believe Prime Minister Imran Khan is more sensible than the previous Prime Minister and will try to diffuse the crisis.
1
They are BOTH nuclear powers! And for both; half their populations live in abject poverty. So, no infrastructure, no education, in some areas no FOOD! But a big pile of bombs. In varying degrees repeated all over the world. Sometimes I wish the science fiction I grew up on didn't turn out to be so true.
1
Unfortunately Pakistan doesn't really have the government that they appear to have. Much of the problem is the ISI, their intelligence agency. These people seem to be able to run their own foreign policy. They support many terrorist groups (they hid bin Laden for years) and the Pakistani nuclear weapons program. The nominal leaders have to kowtow to them. This is why negotiations and agreements with the legitimate government are difficult or end up meaning nothing.
7
Say no to war!
3
Well if this is going to go nuclear, I hope it's fairly contained. I hope too that this time humanity learns a bit more from it, if we survive. If there's no recognizable region of Jammu/Kashmir afterward, that's probably for the best.
This won’t escalate to a nuclear war.
On the contrary, the fact that both countries have nuclear weapons ensures that both sides will seek to defuse the situation after some brief military theater.
3
And on the bright side, if it does escalate to a nuclear war, there will be no evidence of anyone ever claiming that it wouldn't. All electronic data will be eliminated, guaranteed.
1
Let me speculate a little here:
1. Pakistanis control the Taliban. No one has any doubts that the Taliban and Al Queda was actively supported by during cold war by the US and later by Pakistan during '00 (where was OBL found?)
2. Right now the US wants to get out of Taliban but it needs to ensure that the Taliban is kept in check without the presence of the US military.
3. US absolutely didn't trust Pakistani government to do so (specifically their army which actually runs the country).
4. The only establishment which will be interested in doing that job would be the Indian government.
5. Currently the US is negotiating with the Taliban. The Indian attacks on JeM camps must have been actively aided by the US intelligence to make that point.
Cue#1 : Trump claimed only last week that India was planning something really big.
Cue# 2: The indian operation was very sophisticated and it seems unlikely that India did it on its own.
2
@thyssenbot
"1. Pakistanis control the Taliban. "
If they did, the Taliban would not go around killing Pakistanis within Pakistan. So I disagree.
@thyssenbot
Proofs? NADA TADA NILL NULL
On a serious note, it's frightening to be sitting in Rawalpindi Pakistan under the clouds of war btw.
Yes Pakistan needs to address the presence of terrorist groups within their borders. While India has a extremist hindu national Prime Minister who has done nothing to stop the violence against the Kashmiri Muslim population, till both are brought under control and the issue of Kashmir is resolved the flare-ups will continue and one of these flare-ups may turn out to be extremely dangerous. World has to realize that extremist religiousness regardless of religion is dangerous.
3
First things first. War is not an option for either of the countries. However, Pakistan’s leniency towards dealing with firm action towards terrorist organizations is also well known. Best example of it is ofcourse Bin Laden, who lived (not hiding) in Pakistan for 9 yrs, 0.5 miles from an army headquarter in a large mansion. Whom US army took out without informing Pakistan army.
I also firmly believe people of both the countries want peace. Masood Azhar is considered terrorist not only by India but unanimously by all the western countries. He was forced released after hijacking civilian Indian plane and has orchestrated many high casualty attacks in India including Indian parliament. His organization is banned by Pakistan itself after WSJ journalist, Daniel Pearl’s capture and murder and kidnapping of western tourists. Pakistan still doesn’t take firm action against him or his terrorist organization, who are openly carrying out their operations as usual. I can also understand countries leadership might support action but it getting opposition by their military and ISI which have terrorist sympathizers.
But here, Pakistan can change the course and be right side of history. Pakistan can arrest this terrorist and take law dictated firm action. Show their resolve to weed out terrorism from their region and world. Not providing them with safe haven. Both the countries can start talk towards peace and start solving problems together that plague both the countries.
3
Pakistan-India tension, now escalating into hostilities can quickly get out of control if better sense does not prevail. War between two nuclear armed neighbors will be devastating not only for the combatants but also for the world. One important factor in this escalation is the Trump-led US abandoning its leadership role in the world. There are many who resent the US stature and its global leadership, but a world without US leadership will be a much worse place to live. America has to assert itself for world peace and stability and play its due role.
Given has always supported pakistan by giving it aid and military supplies. Pakistan is not self made like India. It cannot live without aid, and that is their biggest weakness. It acts like a brat and gets what it wants from the International lobbies. While India has sent so many peace keeping troops for United Nations, it never got recognised or support even at UN despite enourmous evidences of proof of Pakistans wrong doings. So, why should India wait for any foreign consent now? US has been shooting itself on its own foot, by giving aid to Pakistan, which in turn gives to aid to terrorists, and these same guys bomb US forces. Maybe US should take a firm stand as Nick Haley said: dont give a penny to Pakistan anymore. Lets see what they can manufacture and do on their own.
11
@Gene
See as Trump have said you stopped giving as pennies 9 months ago, but Pakistan has successfully defended its territory by shotting down two indian fighter jets.
@Qayyum
Not two, just one as admitted by your military. Other one was yours shot by India.
@Jay
LOL, bring some evidence?
Alright, there is a total of 3 casualties of yours. 2 fighter jets and a helly.
One dropped in Pakistan and two in IOK. You can close your eyes and say, all is well, all is well, but that's not going to change the reality.
You don't have proofs of Surgical Strike 2016, or AirStrike 2.0 (2019) and F16.
Let me tell you, modi is playing well to win next elctions in april.
Pakistan Zindabad
Its incredible to read of the acceptance as normal behavior that Hindus and Muslims can’t live together peacefully in the same country. Amazing.
1
@Shamrock Acceptance of that premise is the basis (raison d'etre) for the creation of the [Islamic Republic of] Pakistan. The preamble to India's constitution explicitly states that India is a SECULAR country. And the irony is that that both countries have almost the same number of Muslims.
2
Majority of Hindus and Muslims live peacefully in India! It’s only a small percentage of people that cause trouble and in a population of 1.3 billion even a very small percentage may seem a lot. In fact more Americans die of gun violence than religious violence there.
1
@Shamrock
Please read more about history of the region, and history of religions too.
I believe it was President Obama who felt that Pakistan was a powder keg and the state that should worry the U.S. most.
5
@R. Anderson
I did not know that. What did he do about it?
Sadly, the situation bears one similarity to the outbreak of World War I. In the latter case, a nation harboring terrorists (Serbia) allowed those thugs (the Black Hand group) to commit murder (of Archduke Franz Ferdinand) a neighboring state (Austria-Hungary). That touched off a global conflict.
For decades, Pakistan has allowed assorted murderers to launch attacks on India and as often as not, they have targeted civilians (the Mumbai hotel attack).
While the potential for a full-scale war remains frightening, the crisis would not exist if Pakistan controlled what went on its own territory. However, that probably is too much to expect from a nation in which women regularly lose their lives in honor killings and in which young women who want to learn how to read have acid thrown in their faces.
6
And while the Indian and Pakistani military retaliate for a retaliation, the politicians of India and Pakistan will provide optics to win respective ensuing elections. This is so sad and so dangerous for the Indian subcontinent. Both neighbors are nuclear who have refused to sign the NPT. Currently, both sides refuse any instigation but how do you explain that Pakistan did not infiltrate Indian airspace but did attack a military camp within India's forces besides a suicide bombing. Indians claim that infiltrating Pakistan was a retaliation to the above. Always the chicken or egg situation. Hopefully wiser heads prevail and the latest incursions stay skirmishes. Yes, it has been more than 50 yrs. after independence and both countries should acknowledge their own actions. They should acknowledge each other as agree to disagree neighbors. But Great Britain's role has to be acknowledged too. When they drew that arbitrary ambiguous line between the two countries they knew that the two neighbors would be in a constant state of war, impoverishing them just like the days of the Raj.
I believe that the Indians were trying to destroy the terrorists that have repeatedly attacked innocent Indian (and maybe Pakistani) citizens. Pakistan won't act against their terrorists so someone needs to. Im wondering why they didnt just send in a small counterterrorism group to try to destroy the terrorist cell. Then none of this posturing would have been necessary. I dont know if India has a counterterrorism group, but im sure they have an intelligence agency. Israel's Mossad is very effective.
1
@Rose Hoff
The terrain puts India at disadvantage. Besides there are probably hundreds of such cells.
1
Stop fighting, stop threatening and talk and talk, and from my perspective Pakistan appears most willing to talk so far. Now for India.
5
People are a little bit biased against Pakistan. The fact is India has done much more terrorism in Pakistan using Afghanistan then Pakistan blamed to have carried out in Kashmir. Remember attacks on Army Public School were more than 200 children killed? Remember attack on karachi airport? Remember militant attacks on other military installations and recent attack on Chinese consulate in Karachi. Indian spy chief has accepted it in a speech to his colleagues. India is given more importance because it is bigger buyer of arms.
8
Do you really believe what you've written? Really? Fanatic sunni Muslim terrorists won't attack Shia shrines? They won't attack centers of higher education which aren't madaras? That don't believe that women shouldnt be educated and be covered in a burkha (even though the Koran doesn't say that). Do you also believe that Malala was attacked by the Indians?
1
@cofcol
Let me give you a breaking news. India doesn't want anything to do with Pakistan or its people. We want to be better and we have nothing to learn from it. Nothing in any sphere of life.
Why I say this ? To tell you that India doesn't want to do any attacks on Pakistan - because India doesn't want to spoken in same sentence as Pakistan.
1
regarding Indian spy speech to his colleagues you are referring to: please send a link from hopefully a reputable news source.
1
Escalation ladder is visible and continuous climb unless UN calm down. Though war history is commendable on both sides that they avoid conflict into major cities or target population of each side under war umbrella unlike middle east. Indus water treaty and line of control are to be 1st address. Both nations will play cricket world cup match june.16 in Manchester UK.
I think that picture title
"Indian soldiers near the remains of an Indian aircraft after it crashed on Wednesday"
must be
"Pakistan soldiers near the remains of an Indian aircraft after it crashed on Wednesday"
Jago :)
2
No, that plane went down inside India
It's important that voices of reason are heard and not just buried under rhetoric. There is a very large number of people who do not want war or any loss of life and who are only praying for peace and for good sense to prevail - whether they are Indians or Pakistani's. Let not the mood of the times be judged by only what is heard on TV news debates. These do not represent the "electorates". On both sides of the border, jobs are important, education is important, economic progress is important, improving health is important. This is what people need and want. If we the people really want to achieve this, what we need is a stable and peaceful neighbour. It's upto all of us - whether we are Indian's or Pakistani's to reject the politics of hate and war and make ourselves heard and to speak for what is right. As an Indian, I have grown up believing in the ideals of Gandhi, in non-violence and above all in secularism, freedom and in human dignity. People like me have been a silent majority for too long. It's time to drown out the jingoistic noise on both sides of the border.
4
@Manoj Sahay. Who remembers Gandhi these days in India? These are the days of Hindutva, of RSS as the ruling class and not the party that killed the Mahatma; of anyone who disagrees with Modi being branded as antinational; of mob lynchings for alleged consumption of beef; of persecution of Dalits (aka Harijans of Gandhi); of corruption masquerading as swatch (clean) governance; of the delusion that India can become a grand Aryan nation by persecuting the “others” etc etc. The promise and potential of India is fast receding. The ongoing wag the dog drama is the latest tragedy unfolding before the world.
Its really easy to peacefully end this. Pakistan must find and destroy the terrorist groups in their country.
1
The whole episode started when a Pakistani trained terrorist slammed a car into a bus carrying soldiers. That is when Indians reacted by bombing the terrorist camp operated by Pakistani citizens.
This is not new to Pakistan, they have sponsored and actively supported terrorists in Afghanistan and India over decades.
I wish the NYT article should have been more honest in is giving the complete picture.
14
As the great Steve Buscemi once said in the appropriately titled "Armageddon",
"It's time to embrace the horror, we have front row tickets to the end of the earth."
1
These escalations will only strengthen Indo-US-Israeli military cooperation in the intermediate and long run. Pakistan military, is using a cricket player as a front man with terrorism as its agenda, getting away each time because of a suitor--this time China.
8
@AKA
Agreed, what a convenient ploy by Pakistan. A sophisticated suave statesman Imran Khan to front a backstabbing military and ISI.
The world is not fooled.
2
@AKA
Don't be so sure. Israel and US supports sunni Muslims and Saudi Arabia who support Pakistan. Britain always supported Pakistan. China supports Pakistan. Russsia is toothless.
1
This situation seems to have turned every Indian and Pakistani along with the media into "armchair military generals" with extreme opinions. At the end, we are all people first and whether Indian or Pakistani the blood that falls is always red!
Say No to War! Humanity first!
2
I have had always respected NYT reporting. Without question I took them true on facts. But, where these reporters got their facts. India did not loose two fighters today. It was one MIG-20 (Bison). The other plane that went down was F-16D. It belonged to Pakistan Air Force.
10
@Harimohan Singh
youre basing your "facts" on a statement as well. As NYT reports
pakistani side:
2 planes were shot down; we lost 0
India side:
1 plane was shot down; we also shot 1 of theirs
You're taking statements from Indian govt as fact while both of them needs to be taken with a grain of salt. the only fact that we know from both side's statement is that at least 1 Mig was shot down; provided with evidence and the admittance of the Indian govt. there is no evidence of a 2nd Mig getting shot or an F-16 being shot down
All countries in South Asia,including Bangladesh,Bhutan,Sri Lanka,Nepal,and The Maldives kowtow to India's interests,except for Pakistan. This is the lone check on India's power in the region,and no doubt the smaller players are looking on.
2
@DAWG
Oh my God ! And what exactly has India done for which should be checked?
As I read somewhere correctly Pakistan is a state born out of hate (of hindus), of lost glory (of mughal era) and of victim mentality.
What exactly one has to fear from a country which gave Gandhi, Non-Violence, Buddhism, Vegetarianism and Non Aligned Movement to the world. Unless of course you are looking for perceived insults.
11
Considering the fact that India had to go to war with Pakistan to free Bangladesh from them, i dont believe Bangladesh would agree with you. India could have claimed Bangladesh at the time as they won the war, but they didnt. China is the real growing power in the region and the world. If Pakistan (the country, not the people) would lose its fanatic hatred for India both countries could move forward together and their people would prosper more.
5
@DAWG India wants to assert itself as a regional hegemon. They accepted the UNSC resolution on Kashmir only to go back on it. When the idea of SAARC was floated by President Ziaur Rehman of Bangladesh, Prime Minister Indra Gandhi said small countries trying to gang up against India. Once India decided to join it, she wanted to control it. Today it has practically cease to exist because India has "practically" opted out of it. India is currently trying to form a different regional organization minus Pakistan so it can have better control.
How Nepal, and Sri Lanka feel about India is obvious how they are seeking China's economic investment and diplomatic assistance to ward off Indian demands. Pre-Hasina Wajid Bangladesh was resentful of India and its known to all.
The sad part of this entire debacle has been Modi's fault. His 'tough guy' stance, his constant lies and his efforts to woo younger generation have all but failed. Can India ever recover from this loss?
1
@Swq
As usual a deflection - as if the terrorist attacks on india had been happening in a different space-time continuum. May be in the same space-time where Osama lived unknown to Pakistani military.
Pakistan should worry about its lost tool of using proxies now - given that stakes have been raised. Next time you do it, you know what is coming and if it gets out of hand, it would be on you.
4
The central issue is Pakistan's support of terrorism.
From the initial days of Kashmir, Pakistan attacked the region and has ever since used terrorist techniques (and proxy wars) to destabilize the people of Kashmire.
Today, Kashmir is a shell of what it was in 1947. Most Hindus in the state have left, because of the extreme violence perpetrated by insurgent Muslims (supported by Pakistan).
It shows Pakistan's motive - they are using terrorists to slowly annex Kashmir from India.
Why won't Pakistan work with India to eliminate terrorists on its land?
5
The central issue is Kashmir
1
The good news is that the planes shot down were made in Russia. As far as the rest, this is a religious fight that started before anyone alive today was born, and will continue until long after everyone alive today is dead.
2
Aircraft in the story's opening appears to be a Mi-17 helicopter based on the fixed gear and odd bulge on what appears to be the tail (overturned by in the crowd to the right).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-17
1
One more step to WW3.
Worldwide chaos and destruction caused by the International Mafia and their boy, Steve Bannon, to try to take over the world.
There are just a few people in the world causing this. They are using Hitler's playbook of making countries believe he is the only one who can save them from destruction, gets their participation, stabs them in the back to discredit them and takes over the country and resources.
I'm not a historian and I can see it. Surely people in power around the world can see it, too, and will take action to STOP THEM RIGHT NOW. Before they can destroy OUR world and OUR lives with their demented, insatiable greed.
1
@njglea
I’m guessing no one in the Indian or Pakistani military leadership feel that Steve Bannon is the cause of tension between the two countries. But nothing like a good old New York conspiracy theorist.
@njglea this sounds all too vague and not sure which country are you refering to in the context of this article. People may not be educated in India, but their common sense is strong. Someone like Steve Bannon wont last even 1 day in politics in India. The problems in India are completely different, and its not race driven like here in the US.
1
I have thought for several decades that the India-Pakistan perpetually simmering and intermittently boiling over conflict was by far the likeliest place in the world that nuclear weapons would actually be used. Both countries seemed quite capable politically and culturally of thinking of nukes as usable weapons, not just as a deterrent.
As well, the non-proliferation momentum that prevailed for decades across both national and international political lines (with the possible exception of Pakistan) is on the verge of being undone. North Korea, Saudi Arabia, and who knows where else are rationally (from a regime stability perspective) being encouraged to become nuclear powers. Trump alone is not the fault. Others, such as George W. Bush and his invasion of Iraq, clearly demonstrated to smaller, autocratic regimes that actually possessing nukes was an excellent defense against regime change.
Non-proliferation of nuclear weapons is in every country's interest. However, it is not in the interest of every regime. When nukes were solely the province of the military "big boys" that had regimes stable enough to guarantee command and control of the weapons, of their related technology, and of the businesses which could profit from proliferation, things were plausibly stable, even with "mutually assured destruction" as the constraint.
India and Pakistan began the descent into uncontrolled proliferation. We have gone from deterrence to the consideration of nukes as usable weapons.
2
this is what happens with world powers unduly favours one country and let UN resolutions to be ignored..this happened both in Palestine and Kashmir ..UN has to be strengthened
"Uncontrolled" proliferation? Really? What about China, north Korea, Israel, Russia and the US? Thus far, the US is the only country to use nuclear weapons. Pakistan developed their nukes while receiving huge amounts of financial aid from the US. which helped the Pakistani military funnel money to their terrorists. Religious groups from Saudia Arabia opened extreme fundamental schools in Pakistan and Afghanistan to train the youth in extreme Islam which provided these Pakistani terrorists with a continuous supply of bodies. The US provided weapons and money to the Mujadeens in Afghanistan to fight the Russians. After Russia withdrew, many of these Mujahadeens migrated to Pakistan along with their weapons.
Ironic that our tax dollars and allies have helped fund terrorist groups which are turning on us (via Afghanistan and Pakistan. The fanatics in Pakistan have one interest only; destroy India. They could care less about the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. How else could Saudi born Osama have been openly living in Pakistan.
Western meddling starting with Britain's random division of the region, and the Americans' financial support of Pakistan has helped create and sustain this problem.
2
It would be kind of nice if the US had a functioning state dept about now. There were studies performed a while ago suggesting that even a limited nuclear war between Pakistan and India could have devastating climate consequences (due to the large degree of soot particles released from burning cities). Yikes!
1
We dont need a State Department. We have the greatest ever negotiate. We have The Donald.
1
This is, oddly enough, the umpteenth example of British diplomatic ineptitude and hubris. It seems like an inane thing to say, but it's true.
The whole brexit-debacle is but the latest iteration of a recurring failure to address issues in depth. As you can see I write from Belgium, a country cobbled together by the British as a compromise and without dealing with the very real local differences.
So, let's remember that the Brits also created Israel, building into it the conflict that still plagues us today. They divided Ireland, keeping the Northernmost counties and lived through the Troubles, only to risk scuttling the Good Friday Agreement with their current let's leave the EU shenanigans. They divided Cyprus, with the still unresolved conflict between Greek- and Turkish-Cypriots as a result.
And what is happening today, between two countries with nuclear weapons, is the inevitable consequence of the British inability to find a durable solution for Jammu and Kashmir at the Partition of India...
But I have an idea. Let's send Boris Johnson to mediate!
10
@Rudy Flameng
Spot on. The English and Welsh parts of the UK cannot even sort their relationship with Scotland.
4
@Rudy Flameng
Rudy,
You should get to know the havoc the Brits left throughout
Africa.
The only way this can stop is that India settles this issue once for all with Pakistan. Other wise Pakistan Army would continue to wage a proxy war against India by using Jehadi/ Terrorist groups.
Now the question is why does the Pakistani Army want a conflict with India. Well the Pakistani Army more powerful than even the politically elected government in Pakistan. And this his been so, since the formation of Pakistan.
And has largely been run by military dictators since its independence. Peace with India would make Pak army unemployed.
There is an interview on youtube where in a Pakistani General "Hamid Gul" went on record stating that "In Afghanistan we defeated the Soviets with help of U.S.A " and "now we will defeat U.S.A. with help of U.S.A again in Afghanistan".
India lost 40 soldiers in a suicide attack last week. What if after talks of Peace with Pakistan, another of such attack takes place and India losses another 50 or even 100 soldiers.
So the point is that Pakistan has for long continued to bleed India by using jehahdi terrorist and would continue to do so. The Indian Army as it is loosing men, its better to increase the cost of such conflict for Pakistan so that Pakistan realizes the cost of such conflicts.
Till the time the cost would not be increased for Pakistan, it would continue to bleed India and Western forces in Afghanistan.
7
It's always astounding to read the semi-condescending, semi-chastising comments of Westerners when it comes to India. A subtle racism is in play perhaps. Please don't advise us on how to tackle terrorism which has taken more lives over the years than your 9/11. 1.3 billion people are to be protected. Spare us the de-escalate preaching. Wish you'd advised your military of the same when you shocked and awed in the middle East and took out OBL.
12
@Paddy well said Paddy. Many here it is game of wits and smart anecdotes. In Asia, they dont go on bragging about 1 soldier lost on National tv for days like they do in the US.
2
this what INDIA pledge to Kashmir Peoples and this the only solution.
"The fate of the Kashmir is ultimately to be decided by the Peoples.
We will not and cannot back out this (Pledge)
We are prepared to have referendum held under international auspices like United Nations.
We want a fair and referendum of the peoples and we will accept their verdict.””
JAWARLAL NEHRU
3
@sullu
He did not say 'decided by Muslim People'. The terrorists drove away all Hindus from Kashmir 20 years back. And Pakistan has fueled anti-India sentiments through all means over decades.
If this will be done, it will be done after 20 years of peace. Do you get it ?
4
I find it ironic that Americans are worried about nuclear war between India and Pakistan, our country has been in Iraq and Afghanistan for almost 2 decades with no end in sight. Yesterday there was an article in WSJ about how new recruits in the marines are being taught about 9/11 in their history education because they were born after that and will probably be sent to war there. America has the most number of nuclear warheads and the president wants to build more, his national security adviser wants to go to war with Iran, but we have to ignore that and advise other countries about not going to war because we are superior and know better.
India and Pakistan have always been hostile and will probably be so for a long time but they do know the danger of using nuclear weapons as they are so close to each other. Both countries want to pacify their citizens and this will end after few days.
2
An obnoxious state of relationship between India and Pakistan is now a vivid reality. And all this is due to a single political and rational reality called Kashmir which both countries claim it their own. Why predominantly Muslim Kashmir would ever want to be part of India where they are treated worse than a third class citizen has never been answered by anyone convincingly let alone the very Indians who occupy it. Immediately after the terrorist attack, many Kashmiris in India had been beaten up badly as if they were personally responsible for the terrorist attack. While the fire of Hindutva is raging on the fertile ground of India, while the governing party want to abolish Article 370 to end Jammu and Kashmir’s autonomy how could any Kashmiri ever want to join India as a free man is beyond me.
Given this, one cannot conclude that Kashmiris should join Pakistan. Pakistan is economically a third-world country seemingly with no future other than their post-independence tie with China that might promise a new beginning for them through the Road and Belt Initiative. Ideally, it is now time for the world to insist firmly on both countries to give up their individual claims to Kashmir and let Kashmir to be independent to chart out its own destiny.
The current crisis, if not immediately solved, might lead to a serious escalation. The world has to take the leadership to contain it permanently.
6
@Sam Sengupta
Sam, do you think that Bangladesh is the model for what you are advocating?
Do you think an independent Kashmir is politically possible and, if so, what are the steps you would suggest other (especially neighboring) countries might take to advance that proposition, or are we in a situation where both India and Pakistan are stuck as client states of competing geopolitical interests that have a vested interest in maintaining the armed hostility?
The reason one of my favorite books is The New York Times Atlas of World History is that it clearly demonstrates how the thing peoples kill each over the most (other then "God") are very ephemeral national boundaries.
1
@Steve Fankuchen
If you look deeper Steve, this conflict is also about 'God', not boundaries. You have to read the history of India and Partition for that.
And remember, not all religions are created equal. Some want to bully other.
That's what makes America great - here law is above any religion. And therefore such bullying stays in minds only.
Indian PM Modi calculated wrong move to get elected in the coming months for the 2nd term declaring this unwanted and unwarranted war with Pakistan. In all matters; it was a political decision by Modi and now he should be fully responsible for the historical debacle. He should at least apologize to the public.
2
@rosy dahodi
Why blame Modi? The terrorists, Jaish-e-Mohammed started this when they killed 40 Indian paramilitary officers. Can Modi and the Indian nation bear this and do nothing? The real problem is that the Pakistani govt has created and harbored the terrorists. Further the Pakistani army, the real power in Pakistan wants Jaish-e-Mohammed to stay in business.
This article is crawling with examples of symbolic communication during an escalating military conflict. The videos of the downed India pilots seem to be an obvious propaganda maneuver by Pakistan. It reminds one of the loudspeaker propaganda used by both sides in the Korean conflict of the 1950's that said, in essence: "surrender and you will be treated well."
A more interesting example is where Pakistan makes a veiled reference to a nuclear delivery system called the LABS Maneuver. That is where the pilot puts his aircraft into a parabolic trajectory on the Pakistan side of the border, releases the weapon, performs a loop so that his aircraft stays inside Pakistan, a lets the weapon follow a ballistic curve into India. The LABS Maneuver is used to deliver nuclear weapons at low altitude so that the aircraft does not sustain blast damage.
According to the article: "General Ghafoor, the Pakistani military spokesman, said in a news conference on Wednesday afternoon that Pakistan’s air force had struck six targets inside India, without crossing into the country’s airspace."
In this case the weapons delivered by the LABS Maneuver were probably not meant to inflict any significant damage. Instead it was solely a propaganda message that says, in effect: "see, we know how to deliver nuclear weapons."
1
A devastating loss such as this, a loss of prestige once again, can India claim itself to be a power player in Asia? I wonder what this loss is meant to innocent children in India who have to live under the shadow of this war time insult by Pakistan?
2
Didn't all the war colleges predict that the next 'big one' was going to open with India vs Pakistan ?
1
Every one claims to be on the side of peace. Every nation pretends as harmony affectionate nation. But who plays any significant role in restoring peace is the real gem. In current conflict between India and Pakistani, none of the three top superpowers, United States, Russia and China has meaningfully acted so far. Are they waiting for major human disaster on earth? So Sad!
3
@Dr. Amjad Burq
Here's a fact. Look up the top arms exporting countries - you will undoubtedly find the names of US, Russia and China. And then look up the names of the countries which are the top arms importers - in the Top 5, you will certainly find India and Pakistan. Reach your own conclusion.
1
@Manoj Sahay
Who to blame Manoj?
India faces perceived and real threats from Pakistan; and vice versa for Pakistan. So each must stockpile to protect itself from the other.
Big weapons manufacturers are in the business to sell weapons. Ironically they are the ones who can bring the enemies to the table to talk peace - but they will not.
India and Pakistan must do that for themselves - if their desire for peace is strong enough.
Wonderful, two patently corrupt countries with little or no concept of compassion or the value of human life are facing off, each with nuclear weapons!
2
@j24 Is that what you would've said when the Bay of Pigs was happening ? Look up your own history..
3
@j24
"or no concept of compassion or the value of human life are facing off"
US has been at war for the last 78 years. World War, followed by Korean War, followed by Vietnam war followed by war against the Soviets, followed by Gulf war, followed by Bosnian war, followed by Afghan and then Iraq war, followed by Syrian war followed by Libyan war and other little wars in between...
The article says Trump soured on Pakistan but doesn't say if the US is doing anything to try to ease the situation. While Trump is in Vietnam calling the murderous dictator, Kim, a "great leader," the rest of the world is worrying if a nuclear cloud will soon circle the earth.
Does Trump even know what's going on in India and Pakistan or is he too busy tweeting about Spike Lee?
7
just as in the Middle East underlying this sad conflict is religion, and once religion gets ahold of the narrative the military and violence follow. Religion has a role in terms of community support, inspiring beautiful buildings and music, but on the larger scale it has become a danger to humanity.
4
@Barry Schiller
Add overpopulation to the mix and things get really explosive.
1
First it was demonetization and now this war hysteria. Modi was doing poorly in opinion polls due to jobless growth. Now all that is guaranteed to be out of front page news for months till the election. Follow the money.
8
This seems like a bigger story than the celebrity gossip at the top of the page.
8
As with everything, this is so much more complex than what a can be reported by any news agency. Pakistan and India are not unique, they both have internal factions which are extremist in nature, both countries have corrupt politicians and a country of great poverty and vast income gaps. Both sides will peacock to their citizens, but I believe there are enough people on the top willing/wanting for cooler heads to prevail. The govt. of both sides, at least by some reports by local journalists, have said they are willing to talk. I think the bias against one country over another is hindering a critical and realistic view by a great number of people. Regarding the involvement of third countries, let's understand that each country has financial ties with multiple international players. The U.S., China, Saudi Arabia, Russia-and each one has their own interests at heart, really.
1
I think this crisis will give the needed leverage to Chinese in negotiations with the US on trade and other things. This crisis will escalate till China hasn't gained enough leverage.
While Trump plays his reality television show in Hanoi with Kim, a war is starting between two nuclear armed states in South Asia. He had better high tail it out of Vietnam before the fallout drifts over. Don’t want his hair glowing while he tweets about the fake news.
Trump should be working to stop the escalation of military activities and get the U.N. and NATO et al to convince India and Pakistan to talk. If he did that, he’d get his Nobel Peace Prize. He’d also be doing his job instead of playing games.
3
@Casual Observer
Man you make good points, but your delivery nearly had me out of my chair laughing.
Pakistan supports terrorism and has supported separatists forces in India. But India loses the high ground since it has refused to honor the 1948 UN Resolution on Kashmir. Modi is playing to the gallery since he is facing elections. The crisis is playing in his hands since it helps him get re-elected. Unfortunately the politicians send soldiers as cannon fodder for their own means. In the past the trend has been that all military actions lead to more loss of lives. The so called Surgical strike - 1 led to an increase in terrorist attacks. The solution has to be political - the US or UN need to be asked to mediate between India and Pakistan and help get a peace treaty in place, On their own these two countries will not manage to get peace - the last 70 years have shown this with ample and consistent evidence.
6
Normally I wouldn't worry so much. Pakistan and India have had their back and forth since partition. The last few paragraphs outline the major threat now though. Pakistan and India have traditionally relied on outside mediators to resolve their disputes while each still saves face. Trump throws that relationship into doubt.
As other have noted, Russia backed India during the Cold War so the United States backed Pakistan in order to maintain the balance of power. Obama upset Pakistan by killing Osama bin Laden but what could they really say?
Now though, Trump is once again effectively promoting Russian geopolitical interests at the expense of regional stability. Who is going to mediate on behalf of Pakistan? Certainly not Russia. Meanwhile, China is quasi-expansionary in Northern Kashmir. I doubt either side really wants to hear China's opinion. That doesn't leave many alternatives. In short: I think we have a problem.
The irony of course is President Trump is off doing faux-diplomacy with North Korea while simultaneously ignoring and aggravating a much bigger nuclear threat on the Indo-Pakistani border. It doesn't matter whether either country can hit the United States. Even a limited nuclear war will have global consequences.
I doubt we'll get there but maybe. Most likely, Russia intervenes at Pakistan's expense and Trump applauds Putin for being a "peacekeeper." The US becomes isolated from Pakistan and Russia wins more influence over the region. That's my guess.
43
If India and Pakistan are unable to stop the escalation, Trump will have to address what is happening because he is the President. But that does not make me feel safe. I really do not think that the outcome is predictable. Trump has never shown any grasp of international relations that has any real depth.
39
@Andy
It's bizarre that you lay all the blame on Trump, when the situation between India and Pakistan reflects the collective failings of multiple administrations and all former colonial powers that have chosen to keep their heads in the sand for several decades.
6
Saudi Arabia may be filling the influence vacuum left by the US souring on Pakistan. That said, they may not be ready to intervene to facilitate mediation.
Hindsight is 20/20. I don’t think anyone was talking about India-Pakistan as the nuclear crisis of the day until two weeks ago. Just goes to show you why we absolutely must lead multilateral talks on getting rid of nuclear weapons (and not haphazardly bail on agreements for political purposes). We should co-lead with any partners willing to negotiate in good faith. It is extremely frustrating that this administration chose not to build on the Iran deal by e.g. pushing all those parties including our own to commit to no first strike nuclear attacks. Note that India has committed to this policy, but Pakistan has not. A steadier administration could have pressured Pakistan to commit to such a policy as well if it still had Russia, China and Europe all at the table with it on nuclear arms.
8
Fall out from Modi's nationalist election stunt. Playing with fire has consequences.
6
@Ben Lieberman
You need to learn to respect the leader of Republic of India. Modi is not your buddy. And Indian people support him in what he does to defend India.
Pakistan is a bully and nuclear blackmailer - and like all bullies it only understands force.
1
@Ben Lieberman its just bad timing about the elections. This isnt even a good enough reason to bomb a terrorist base. This was s long time coming.
The good news out of all of this is that the conflict is not based upon religion. Just like the partition of India didn’t have anything to do with religion. It’s just a sectarian conflict.
@Shamrock I realize you're being tongue-in-cheek, but WW1 and WW2 and the Communist purges were actual sectarian conflicts costing close to 100 million lives.
@Shamrock You can't be more wrong. It is a Muslim problem.
2
United States used nuclear weapons to defeat Japan. United States came very close to using nuclear weapons for the second time during Cuban crisis. At that time Russia is also a nuclear state. Had it not been for the blockade, we will be having nuclear tipped missiles in our backyard. United States will not hesitate to use nuclear weapons if a situation arises and warranted. India needs to face the reality and prepare for a nuclear exchange and sanitize the region from terrorists.
1
The whole world knows that Pakistan habor terrorist groups and is not doing enough to eliminate them. Jaish-e Mohammed
Jaish-e-Mohammed literally "The Army of Muhammad abbreviated as JeM) is a Pakistan-based Deobandi Jihadist groupt group active in Kashmir.. The group's primary motive is to separate Kashmir from India and merge it into Pakistan. It has carried out several attacks primarily in the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmis.. It also maintaines close relations with Taliban and al Qaida in Afghanistan and continues to be allied to them. India cannot live in peace until this terrorist group is totally eliminated.
There is some hope, succumbing to intense international pressure to rein in militant groups operating from its soil, the Pakistan government last Friday took over the administrative control of the headquarters of Jaish-e-Mohammad , the terror outfit which claimed responsibility for the rcent deadly Pulwama suicide attack that killed 40 CRPF personnel in Jammu and Kashmir. The move came a day after the powerful UN Security Council comprising 15 nations, including Pakistan’s key ally China, named JeM in a statement condemning in the “strongest terms” the “heinous and cowardly” terror attack perpetrated by Pakistan-based JeM in Pulwama and stressed on the need to hold organisers and financiers of such “reprehensible acts” accountable and bring them to justice. I am happy to see that even China is condemning Pakistan.
6
Has anyone asked the people of Jammu and Kashmir what they would prefer? I think many would support complete independence and a return to the pre colonial border, which neither India or Pakistan ( and China as well) has a legitimate claim to. This dispute is due largely to the incompetence of the British, who who were responsible for drawing many arbitrary borders during its colonial era. Iraq is another fine example.
57
@Mr. B:
Asking the "people of Jammu and Kashmir" is not so easy.
For one, Kashmir now has many illegal alien Pakistanis, who claim to be Indian and cannot show proof.
So any such question must be asked only of Indian citizens who are legal residents and can vote. Otherwise you will be asking jihadi infiltrators (many of whom had entered into Indian Kashmir decades ago, and illegally settled there).
Not so simple to weed out terrorists, when your neighbor is helping those terrorists.
7
@Mr. B
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you for bringing up the British. For too long we've treated allies as incompetent siblings that the US has to step an and do things for (inheriting FDR's foreign policy positions too long). Rather than the US continually being on the hook to intervene or mediate, I'd rather see us, first lightly, and then more forcefully, if necessary, cajole the former colonial powers who created these messes to fix them. Europeans live within a surreal bubble in which they can criticize the US for imperfectly and often ineffectually fix problems that their own governments made.
But have you monitored the goings-on in UK politics? Or France? Or Germany?
8
"Kashmir now has many illegal alien Pakistanis...", change Kashmir to California and Pakistanis to Mexicans and you sound just like Trump.
Claiming unauthorized voters would dramatically skew the election is no excuse to deny Kashmiris the right to self-determination.
6
“We have unfortunately lost one MiG-21.”
Now there’s your problem: Russian hardware. When every single Russian sub delivered to India sinks and/or burns in the harbor with all hands lost, it’s probably time to find a new supplier (or harness all of that brilliance retuning to India when their H-1B visas expire). If nationalism or budget constraints will not permit you to purchase American hardware, I would suggest that you augment your existing French fighters with newer ones.
6
The weaponry could be improved but once a war starts the countries will fight with what they have. This is the first time since the 1960’s that two countries are in danger of starting a war that could escalate into a nuclear exchange. That would be a disaster.
1
@Casual Observer
Sorry, but that is simply wrong: the most recent, serious conflict occurred in 1999. At that time, it was estimated that if both sides exchanged all of their nukes, it would kill 75 million people. Following that, I suppose, the surviving billion plus would resort to sticks and rocks, as presaged by Einstein.
1
@NorthernVirginia And the F-16 that was also shot down? Chinese parts?
1
Nationalism is a romance that ends in tears.
Time is of essence - both countries should have a dialogue - NOW.
9
Say what you will about Pakistan’s duplicitous policies, but post 9/11, the country has developed one of the world’s most elite and sophisticated militaries. Since the Pulwama attacks, the Indian government has made one miscalculation after another. From fanning domestic rhetoric at home in an election-driven environment, to falsely claiming to have undertaken “surgical strikes” (which have internationally been debunked as nothing more than a drop-and-go), one wonders what’s next for the Modi-led government. The latest humiliation via the downing of their warplanes and capture of their pilot has undoubtedly left the Indian government embarrassed, which is a scary prospect for the rest of us considering what their next steps might be. Hopefully, the international community can help lead an immediate de-escalation effort!
14
Wherever I see wreckage I see future further arms sales. It's a beautiful cycle. With war as the lifeblood of an economy, things are looking good.
6
Wars are not a game, what does winning a war means? You killed and have done more destruction than the other side?
War is not the answer, India and Pakistan must not go that way as both possess enough fissile material targeted at each other cities to destroy half if not all the population of the sub-continent.
Nuclear powers are not callous in their approach to conflicts. PM Modi is in it for his political life, its time saner heads prevail and they take up PM Imran Khan's offer of the dialog to give peace a chance. If not and if this continues it would be out of their hands and then wars have their own momentum.
Time is of the essence, we all should do our part to stop this insanity before it is too late.
Just remember in wars Humanity is the loser.
39
@Wizarat
With opposing ideologies, war is always the answer!
People love conflict, people love war and people love to hate. Since the beginning of mans rise, this has always been true and it will remain true until mans fall.
Every advance that humans have made can be traced back to simple, unadulterated violence - because people have been at each other's throats since the dawn of time!
Take all the days of hate, violence, war, destruction since the beginning of time and put it on a scale with all the days of peace, kindness and love and see which weighs the most...
In the past 2000 years, we have only had about 3 weeks of peace!
The really scary part... we are now living in the most peaceful time since recorded history began!
3
Right! Your government should have done the same when the WTC was brought down. Every country has the right to defend its borders. This morning several attempts were made to bomb military installations by the PAF, all of which failed. In the skirmish that followed, a Mig 21 was shot down and so was an F16 (shot down by a Mig 21 btw).
The Airstrikes carried out by the IAF on Tuesday were aimed at Terrorist camps, pretty much what you guys do every day with your drone strikes in the NWFP and Afghanistan.
8
“People love conflict, people love war, and people love to hate.”
I cannot express how happy I am that you don’t represent me. Please do not ever run for national elected office.
Now the big question is what would be the future course of action. There is some amount of restraint and realism thats needed. India has a stable economy with good macroeconomic indicators whereas pakistan is on the verge of a balance of payments crisis. India neednt really react based on instincts because paksitan's economy is bound to suffer distaters of apocalyptic proportions anyhow. The sad part is that involving itself in a volatile war like situation is affecting the indian markets and investor confidence. Instead let pakistan bleed through the economic route. Can we be done with this war for the sake of political gains?
3
Why is Cohen the top headline right now and not this or the North Korea summit? These are war/peace interactions between nuclear powers!
31
Obviously you’re going to get more world news here than elsewhere, but for the most part, media companies feel they will be rewarded by people gobbling up political theater over learning about the world. A dead horse was beaten a long time ago.
The question to ask is 'Has Modi cheated his nation'? The hysteria to become west of south asia has become a nightmare situation for India. Was it Modi's lies that ended this poor pilots life? Can India ever recover from this loss of prestige?
8
@Swq what do you mean by west of south asia? What are these 'lies' that were talking of.
The whole thing started with a Kashmiri youth murdering 42 Indian soldiers. Had India laid out the evidence of Pakistani Government involvement they claim to have, they would have had stronger case for the cross border action. Short of such evidence, such actions only seem theatre for stoking sentiments for the upcoming elections.
20
@St Paul
An illogical statement.
The terrorist group JeM claimed responsibility for the attack, which has freely operated within Pakistan for decades. Check your facts before commenting carelessly.
11
@Andrew
Groups claim responsibility regardless whosoever plots the attacks. Claiming responsibility is not a credible evidence to wage war between nations. Lives are at stake here.
Like I said, Nationalism is a romance that ends in tears. Both countries need a dialogue - NOW.
9
@St Paul
Right, this is pure theater, stage managed for a re-election campaign. First demonetization and now this. I hope someone has thought this through to endgame.
Make no mistake. This is a civil war. The partition in 1947 did not result in two countries, just a boarder between two parts (three with Bangladesh) of the same nation (think if there had been a negotiated peace in 1865 and the Union and Confederacy became two countries but still disputed West Virginia). On top of this it is a religious civil war. That makes this escalation even more volatile and possible apocalyptic given both have lots of thermonuclear bombs. Reason gives way to rage and anything is possible in such a situation. Trump and the world media are wasting their time with smalltime Kim when compared to the explosion imminent in Kashmir. The fuse is lit...is the West paying attention?
17
Well, this has the potential to turn into a genuine crisis. Two nuclear powers with a long standing tension between them coupled with a complete lack of leadership from the United States. Do we even have ambassadors in either country or any experienced State Dept. staff? Meanwhile hearings today in congress about Stormy Daniels payoffs!
16
@Wilco:
Roger that.
If I remember correctly, the same scene occurred not too long ago, when "two nuclear powers with a long standing tension between them"... threw threats between each other... "coupled with a complete lack of leadership from the United States"...
Lest we forget, it was trump tweeting that "his button" was bigger than Kim Jong-Un's nuclear button. It was the same situation. So, the United States is in no position to now offer "leadership".
An incompetent trump and his cowboy administration are morally derelict on such issues.
"The American government has typically played an important role diffusing tensions between India and Pakistan, shuttling between the two rivals in past flare-ups. But President Trump has soured on Pakistan while drawing closer to India since coming to office in 2017."
Please keep the so-called president away from this.
PLEASE.
The future of the world may rest on his absence.
16
@AWENSHOK
Thank god Obama intervened and brought peace among the several religious groups in the area. Otherwise. We would still have to worry about war between India and Pakistan. But the good news is that the conflict has nothing to do with religion.
Have you been drinking, @Shamrock? You tell a tale of fiction.
The truth is, one of the two nations has experienced leadership and sophisticated military who behave in responsible, measured, and legal ways, believe in non-violence and human rights, take a secular reasoned approach to foreign policy, acts decisivelyly and strongly against terrorism, and does not engage in first-strike attacks on other countries.
The other nation is Pakistan.
2
This conflict needs intervention by a steadying influence. In the past, we might have been able to assist. Not with this Presidency. I pray the UN or other international organization calms this down before it gets out of hand. They both have nuclear weapons, and it only takes one error to unleash one.
4
It is worthy of note that there is a crisis in China in the area bordering the entire region. Estimates are that up to two million ethnic Uyhgurs have been sent to detention camps for "reeducation". The Uyhgurs are Moslem and are culturally and linguistically related to the Turks. The area labelled, "China", on the map in the article is Uyhgur territory.
5
India and Pakistan did not get the memo, that the world is moving towards LESS conflict. In 2019, we should no better than to saber rattle. Nuclear or non nuclear, countries, especially bordering countries, ought to resolve to bring peace in this world, our children grandchildren deserve better, they deserve a world without conflict. Stop all airstrikes.
4
@petey tonei
What should Pakistan, as a nation, do when a neighbor violates its airspace and shoots missiles within its borders?
3
@AN A known terrorist group operates openly within Pakistan's borders and has been doing so for years. The world powers know this. If the Pakistani governments condones this then they are openly supporting terrorism. And if terrorists from this group attack Indian troops directly or directly then they have to be taken out. Where were you when Navy Seals took out OBL just 80 km from where the original missile strike took place?
3
@AN:
Simple. They should help that neighbor attack all known terrorist camps operating within your borders.
That neighbor was not attacking you, but the terrorists camps that you let stay on your land.
If you're really against terrorism, show it.
1
During 1947 when India got independence from British colonialism, it was partitioned into India and Pakistan. The king of Kashmir elected to join with India. However, Kashmir has always been hugely contentious and claimed by both countries because of its strategic location. Kashmir became a casualty of the global geopolitics with Russia siding with India and US army establishing a base in Pakistan. Despite the current right wing Modi government, India has been a secular country, while Pakistan has become a rogue state. While tensions flare periodically between India and Pakistan, what’s also a huge problem is that China has occupied a large section of north east Kashmir (in addition to the entire east Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh). Kashmir is very much a current problem for which Britain, US, and Russia hold chief culpability based on their prior actions.
68
@jen
I do agree with most of part of your post. The 'Maharaja' of Kashmir did elect to join with India...against the will of his people.
13
@CFM The Maharaja of Kashmir is a king, and Kashmir was Hindu before the population was forced at the point of a sword to convert to Islam and the Hindus left who were Pandits, Nehru was one of them, were systematically exterminated or had to seek refuge elsewhere
30
@jen
Once again, as you write in the last sentence of your very interesting comment, we see the poisoning effects in the present of bad deeds done in the past.
It is a theme that unfortunately recurs in the histories of all three of the countries that you mention. Britain sold Jammu Kasmir to Gulab Singh 170 years ago and then a hundred years later the British were still interferring in the transfer of its control to India.
4
The level of nationalism in several of the comments makes you wonder how far they would go for "victory".
Counting up the nuclear weapons on both sides should make it exceedingly clear the price to win any conflict could be insanely and tragically high.
4
I think both Imran Khan and Modi need to have a dialogue discussing options that don’t involve military aggression on either side. One mustn’t forget for a second that both the countries are nuclear armed and escalating this issue any further could be catastrophic in unimaginable ways. Pakistan’s militant problem needs to be addressed by strictest possible measures. But this is a job that requires international intervention. India should’ve gone to the UN about it instead of taking the matter in its own hands. Even though what happened in Kashmir was tragic to say the least, it doesn’t however take a genius to figure out that going to war with your nuclear armed neighbor over this issue is simply foolish and irresponsible as it puts billions of lives at risk on both sides. Even though initially it might have seemed the “right” decision to respond with the so called “non-military strike”, given the two nations’ decades long issues and tensions, a strong potential for the chance of escalation of the situation should have been predicted by the Indian military and therefore the response to what happened in Kashmir should’ve been more of a diplomatic and a non-aggressive one and one that involved the UN and international powers.
12
@Ben Parkins
Illogical statement. India has gone to the UN multiple times but UN doesn't care.
3
@Ben Parkins India has gone to UN multiple times. In fact, there is one UN proposal currently pending to ban Maulana Masood Azhar who leads Lashkar, which is currently politically blocked by China.
And when UN did act banning Hafiz Said, the same guy gives political speeches and cannot be touched as he is propped by Pakistan's military.
So much for UN!
@Ben Parkins:
India has gone to the UN multiple times.
However, China is on the security council and has consistently blocked all such resolutions. The reason: because China and Pakistan both have disputes with India - Pakistan has military aggressions, while China has mostly economic (but also military) aggressions.
It is in China's self-interest to block India. Doing so also makes Pakistan their ally, to "fight" India. This is why parts of Kashmir is "owned" (claimed and occupied) by China and Pakistan. The history is that Pakistan grabbed a part of Kashmir from India temporarily, and then did not object when China "took" that part from them.
The documented history of Kashmir is full of bad actors -- notoriously Pakistan and China.
2
USA needs to put more pressure on Pakistan, a known exporter of Islamic terrorism not only against India but also against American interest. Anyone who think Kashmir is a disputed territory and not an legitimate and undisputed part of India needs to learn few basic of history of that region- before & after Indian independence.
11
@bonku
Please stop accusing Pakistan of exporting!! The Islamic Republic does NOT EXPORT anything. This is why its coffers are empty!! A country should be able to export the products it has, to a place they are needed. America exports WEAPONS, and WEAPONS and WEAPONS, that kill, destroy and maim. America EARNS billions, and billions of dollars through this export. I hope you are following my line of thinking. Talk to you another time.
@bonku, No country in the world
recognizes Kashmir as part of India.
It is regarded as a disputed territory.
India and Pakistan seized parts of
Kashmir by military invasion. Why
any action in Indian controlled part
of Kashmir is regarded as violation
of Indian sovereignty.
@Deepak we are taking action we are making a fence on Pakistan-Afghanistan border so no more terrorists coming into the country. We are also doing operations in northern areas eliminating many terrorist groups. But India always hinders our progress. If India is constantly going to be a threat to the country then how can we focus on eliminating terrorism?
4
@Fasih Ullah
How exactly does India “hinder” Pakistan’s progress in making a wall between it and Afghanistan?
3
@D Reese, we need armed forces to fight the terrorists and we can not so so if India is always going to be a threat. War is not an option. Thousands of innocent people will die. Both countries need to sit and talk. If we won't resolve it now then when
@Fasih Ullah
It is good to see that Pakistan is finally attempting to take down terrorist organizations. Without credible evidence of that, especially with ongoing attacks, no matter what an ordinary Indian or Pakistani citizen may suffer, neither political elite will want to lose face.
Talk has to be followed by action (halt ISI’s help to terrorist organizations).
Of all the news stories swirling around this morning, this one has the potential to draw a third of the worlds population into a conflict between two heavily armed nuclear powers.
If only we had a leader, a president of the United States, who had experience in foreign affairs and selflessly served as Secretary of State. Someone who wasn’t self interested, with respect from other leaders around the world?
Does anyone have her number?
7
@Jeffrey Schantz I knew, somehow, someway, this would be blamed on Trump. It never grows old.
A country with a massive deficit and poverty reaching unrealistic levels, tries to wage war with a country much smaller than its entire size. Can this defeat be blamed on poorly maintained obsolete Russian hardware? Or can it be blamed on a haste to become 'Asian Super Power'?
6
@Swq losing some old fighters and their pilots is tragic, but not by most real military standards not much of a defeat. But if anyone there thinks this is important enough to use a nuke - there will be a lot of "defeat" going around.
1
@Swq In the Gulf war how many American soldiers were lost? Did that constitute "defeat" ?
2
@Swq, Indians already believe they are a superpower. They have started
using the language of US: "punish",
"isolate","stop economic and trade"
relations,etc. Touting the total GDP,
fifth highest in the wolrd to claim big power status, demanding to join UN security council with a veto.It GDP is big in total because there are 1.4B people producing it but it
is 146 in GDP per person.
India should cease from chest thumping if in the 21st century it still is using Mig 21 fighters. A reality check is in order given that India still has to confront China over border disputes.
7
@Malone That Mig-21 shot down a F-16. That is the reality check!
2
I will never understand the blatant support in western publications and liberal commentators for a known terrorist state. Looks at where the culturally homogenous Pakistan today and how far India has come, even with a much more diverse population, given they started together in 1947.
Where would you rather live? Karachi or Bombay?
90
Have you lived in either city?
12
@thewhigs
This point was, imho, one nation’s commitment to secularism and progress, another’s encouragement and abetting of terrorism.
9
@thewhigs Matter of fact I have
6
War is breaking out between two nuclear powers, yet our leadership is distracted by massive corruption and criminal investigations. Conflicts everywhere, from Venezuela to Nigeria, to Pakistan, India, Middle East. Yet the White House and Congress are in chaos. Cannot even lead America, let alone the world.
15
Wow, the Iran nuclear deal sounds so mature and reasonable right about now, doesn't it? We have increased the software precision of our existing nuclear arsenal. In addition, $1,500,000,000,000 to upgrade it. The WORST thing we can do is to create more instability in nuclear deterrence.
2
It is strange that nobody is paying attention to the core issue of transborder terrorism and the low intensity warfare that the deep state of Pakistan is waging against India through the terror proxies such as the Jaish e Mohhammad (JeM) or the Lashkar e Taiba (Let). It is these terror groups that have also been listed by the UNSC as the terror outfits that pose threat to international peace yet nurtured and provided safe haven by Pakistan. Unless this state sponsored terror against India is not considered in objective manner the tense border conditions between Pakistan and India will continue to defy logic.
46
@Prof. Jai Prakash Sharma
What about the blowing up of Samjhauta Express train (Lahore –Delhi) in Feb. 2007 by Hindu terrorists group Abhinav Bharat killing 68 persons mostly Pakistanis near Panipat, India? Till now these terrorists have not been brought to justice.
12
@Ighani
They will be if any, but no one can tell when. Culprits of 1984 anti Sikh riots are being tried now only after almost 40 years. India is not a rogue state like Packistan. But conflict of interests often plays significant role in hindering justice which is a unfortunate reality.
3
It is of complete shame that a country size of India with a ballooning military budget. And with a military with three times size of Pakistan got defeated.
4
@Swq
Pakistan is known for falsehood. In 1971 till last day Pakistan kept its citizens in dark saying India was defeated while their generals were surrendering.
4
The articles on Cohens testimony on Trump and his extra marital affairs has thousands of comments in the NYT while the article about possible war between two countries, India and Pakistan with nuclear capability has less than 30.
Nuff said
75
@D
The masses are easily distracted by extra-martial affairs!
19
Politics in America is terrible. Both sides too concerned about defeating the other instead of governing. Be better off if we got rid of both parties and started over. Maybe then we could find some politicians with some common sense.
2
@D - I was shocked that regional conflicts this week couldn't even make the front page of the digital edition until today. This is serious, and we are only adding to the global destabilization.
4
Escalation must stop, and foreign powers must intervene to make it so. That being said, the underlying cause of this whole debacle is the occupation of Kashmir by India. It is clear that Kashmiri's would want to join Pakistan after the decades of atrocities committed by paramilitary units of the Indian police and military. Pakistan must also seriously commit to dismantling militant operations on their side of the border.
40
There were 3 votes and 4 wars. Lots of real Kashmiris moved out of Kashmir to India. India is way more prosperous than Pakistan. No one wants to live in Pakistan, not even Imran khan.
33
@K. H. I am fed up of the constant India bashing that perpetuates Western media. Let's get a few things straight: (1) Pakistan has a history of harbouring terrorists and I need only point to Osama bin Laden - Dont pay lip-service to the changes Pakistan needs to make. It is common knowledge that Pakistan is run by the military. If you are going to criticise India, have the decency to spell out the impossibility of any Pakistani civilian government changing the status quo.
How do you envisage Pakistan "seriously committing to dismantling militant operations?" You want foreign powers to intervene but not supervise the dismantling of militant operations - is that correct. (2) If the US can pre-emptively strike a terrorist target, so can India (2) I will not defend India's track-record in Kashmir but I find it ridiculous to second guess what India occupied Kashmiris want. While we are on the subject of occupation, let's talk about Pakistan occupied Kashmir (3) Is Pakistan occupied Kashmir an oasis of calm? A paradise where the Pakistani army doesn't rule it with an iron fist? Democracy and freedom of press operate in India occupied Kashmir, enabling scrutiny. Why hasn't any international humanitarian body including the UN visited and reported on Pakistan occupied Kashmir? When was the last Amnesty International visit to Pakistan occupied Kashmir?
169
@K. H.Nope. The underlying cause of this mess is the ceaseless incursions across India's borders by the agents of a failed state.
29
Is this where nuclear Armageddon is going to start? These two powerful countries, which were once one, are separated because of religion, and both have enough Atomic bombs to destroy our planet. This is a truly dangerous situation.
At the very least the world needs wise and respectable leaders to speak out for peace, and everyone needs to to think of the children in both countries who will die if this becomes an all out nuclear war. They do not deserve to die in a war started by adults.
86
@W. Michael O'Shea
No, it doesn't, because neither country has "enough Atomic bombs to destroy our planet." They certainly have enough to bring an unprecedented level of misery to each other's (and their own) populations -- and the impact on ~1.5 billion people cannot just be written off -- but a global "Armageddon" is not going to happen.
6
@ryan Actually, its not about the amount of bombs each country has but rather the impacts Thermonuclear weapons leave on the world.
If both Pakistan and India were to use their full nuclear arsenal on one another it would send dust, debris, and radiation into the upper atmosphere which would spread around the world. The sun's rays would be partially blocked for a long time while the dust settles and the global climate would change. The cooling effect and spread of radiation would effect the world not just their region.
10
@W. Michael O'Shea:
It is wrong to equate the Indian government with the Pakistan military government. The Indian government is taking measured actions to deescalate, and to limit/control Pakistan's aggressions and its lack of anti-terrorist actions.
These facts about both countries are internationally accepted:
India has been a secular non-military-run stable government for its entire history.
Its seasoned leaders think responsibly.
It believes in human rights and non-violence.
It has a strong history of fighting terrorism.
It has a strong self-sufficient modern economy.
It is a world leader in space travel, all sciences, and technology.
On the other hand...
Pakistan has been a military-run theocracy for most of its history.
Its history has violent overthrows of its own civilian leaders.
It promotes and harbors terrorists (don't forget it let Osama Bin Laden hide for years right next to its Air Force Academy).
It hinders human rights against its own people.
Its military often overrides its weak civilian leaders.
It has waged a decades-long covert ground war against India, through Pakistan-occupied-Kashmir.
Its economy is in shambles.
It is usually looking for aid from other countries.
7
I think this will get worse from here before it gets better. India phrased its yesterday's strike as non-military strike on Lashkar and Jaishe Mohammad that are propped by Pakistan's millitary. The key terrorist actors in Pakistan are still sheltered by its military. I don't think there is much chance of this dying down. I won't be surprised if India strikes again this time on some other targets.
Unless all sides see a respectable way out of this, I see this escalating to a full scale war very soon. The only way to stop this from escallating is if China relents and agree with the UN proposal to ban Lashkar and other proscribed groups that it as been blocking for a year now. Its investments in Pakistan are at risk, so I won't be surprised it does.
47
Violent people can always justify violence. Where are the wise peacemakers?
1
Eating chocolate given to them by the countries that sell the warplanes and guns and uniforms used by these countries for their own to prosper.
8
@SL, India used French Mirage jets and Israeli smart bombs to attack Balakot town in Pakistan. congratulations to both France and Israel. They
are laughing on the way to bank while Indian mother doesn't have enough milk for the children, enough hospital beds and poor schools. Have you seen patients lying in the corridor in the hospitals because there are not enough beds. However, Indians are thumping chests for becoming
super power. what more can you say?
@s.khan
the same can be said of Pakistan too. in fact more so.
May the sense previal. Wars start and then end can never be certain. international community should come to rescue. UN should do now what it is actually made for global peace.
2
Unfortunately, mod’s election drum will cost too many lives on but this is the only language he understands.
5
@Dr M Sultan
Convenient to preach peace after doing terrorist attacks.
Where was Osama bin laden found? How many American lives were lost in his pursuit? How much money did America lose in that?
Pakistan got off lightly at that time due to Obama.
14
@Jay, Former president Obama made it clear that the documents seized from Bin Laden's house by the special op forces showed no connection with Pakistan government. Watch his interview with Indian journalist Karan Thapper in New Delhi.
May be now India and Indians will realize that their military is absolutely incompetent.
They are good at parading, smart salutes, cartoonish old British Raj uniforms - and yes, bands.
And these bands still play British military songs - after 70 years of Independence.
Oh yes, they are also good golfers. No base in India is without an 18 hole course. All, I mean all, Indian professional golfers are sons of Indian military officers.
I am spending my 4 the winter here in Mumbai.
Yesterday, Indian tv and media could not glorify enough this "surgical strike" that supposedly killed 300 terrorists. Pamela Constable - a long time south Asia correspondent is reporting in the Post - there has been zero independent verification of that claim.
Pakistan is a tiny country - a couple of Indian states have more people than Pakistan does.
But they have guts and sure some bravado - but they always end up humiliating India - because India walks in their trap.
This incident started because of a terrorist attack that killed some 50 Indian soldiers in India itself.
As it became clear that this terrorist was born and bred in India - Indians refused to accept it.
The convenient - as always - culprit is Pakistan. No proof, nothing.
And now there has been more tragic loss.
And a big time loss of credibility. All because of incompetent military and power hungry politicians.
59
@Neil
India is proud of their military for having responded at least. Didn’t America respond to 911 but took almost a decade to find Osama?
What is worse - lose in a fight or not fight at all?
8
Americans should not talk about the military strength of others when American military is losing to the Stone Age Army of Taliban and ISIS.
9
@Neil This is spot on. Casual readers look at the parades , and the modest victories of India in the 70s and think they are far superior to the Pakistani forces.
But the Indian army lacks discipline and have no integration between their ancient air force (still flying Mirages from the 80s and even Migs from the 70s!!) and the army which is equipped with rusting Soviet surplus.
Add in the utterly indefensible defense aid the U.S. lavishes on Pakistan and there is real parity between the 2 countries, despite India being 4x larger and 20x richer.
The Indian army needs a total overhaul, particularly its bloated top brass, before they start rattling the saber again.
5
Pakistan’s government does not control the military, and the military is cozy with terrorists. That is the criticism that has long been used to isolate Iran.
24
Pakistan has to cease its proxy war against India and India has to come to terms with the ground realities in Kashmir. This will only happen if both sides clearly see the futility of doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different outcome. Sadly the rhetoric from both sides suggest that they are nowhere close.
9
The Jaish attack happened even as Pakistan's PM was trying to negotiate a bailout package with the IMF and only days before MBS visited Pakistan and then India. This was clearly done to put Imran Khan in a spot who has nothing to gain by conflict with India. Pakistan can greatly improve its finances by having more trade with India. And by reducing its military spending as well. Also, India can benefit from lasting peace with Pakistan. Reality is not so simple unfortunately. This issue evokes too much anger and vitriol. I can only speak for India when I say everyone in India should calm down. More airstrikes are not going to 'avenge' terrorist attacks. More dialogue and some compromise is the need of the hour. Only, something on the lines of the European Union can solve this issue. Free movement of goods, services and people can render borders and all the hate that comes with it completely irrelevant like it did in Europe. Is it too much to hope? After all we were one nation not long ago.
30
@Sayeeshwar
Finally, a sane voice, you need two hands to clap, wether thats for peace or for war. This region cannot afford war as it will effect both countries. Khan has been asking again and again to give peace a chance, its time India respond to that.
This dialogue is starting to resemble the Rants and Raves section of Craigslist. It seems to me that both sides have become intractable and entrenched in their sense of indignation at some subset of sword rattlers within each other’s ranks. Both both sides are about to learn the consequences of all out war in the nuclear age. I’m reminded of a little ditty that I memorized many years ago; Here lies the body of Mike O’Day, who died defending his right of way, his right was clear and his will was strong, but he died just the same as if he’d been wrong.
5
@Paul Henson wrote “This dialogue is starting to resemble the Rants and Raves section of Craigslist.”
There is a Rants and Raves section? That’s almost as good as the beef jerky lounge on a truly classy cruise ship. Why have I been wasting my talent here? Thank you!
Well this is the most appropriate answer to the violations they did. They always blame pakistan without any reasons without a single bit of evidence or proof. They claimed falsely yesterday that they killed miltants in Ballakot but there was nothing in rubble other than 7 trees. Their lies are revealed.
12
There it is, that's the thinking on both sides of this conflict, times 1.4 billion people in India and Pakistan. It's surprising they haven't started a nuclear war yet, given how so many of them, even people in government, devoutly wish for a "cleansing" nuclear war with the other side.
And the U.S., which usually plays the part of an honest broker, is a rank partisan because Trump is too ignorant to understand where his country's interests lie. I guess we'll find out over the next few years if America's step back from being the world's diplomat causes disasters unprecedented.
4
So they started off by killing 44 crpf of India. We do airstrikes on Terrorist camps. No civilians were killed or military establishment. Pakistan has always sent their terrorist into our soil and do terror attacks here. Remember 26/11?
The list could go on.
All the people here supporting Pakistan has some serious brain issue. You forgot were Osama was found?
Pakistan has to stop terrorist camps in their soil otherwise we will do it for them.
117
@Siddharth The problem is that there was no airstrike on any terrorist camp. It was just drama for Indian public consumption. They did cross the Pakistani border though, for a few minutes, that's why they got a reply today.
@Siddharth
Pakistan is not bigger than India but still it is world's 6th or 7th biggest country population wise, I think. Osama chose to hide in Pakistan on his own.
Remember, CIA monitored him for over a year before they attacked, so if there was any Pakistani connection, it would have been exposed right there and then. It was nothing but complete intelligence failure of security agencies.
What has India gained from warmongering? Bruised and beaten by a 7 times smaller nation, even Indian media following Pakistani news channels. Let common sense prevail. India bow down to eliminate chance of nuclear war.
18
This 7 times smaller nation has US F16’s and formidable equipment while. 1985 Czech / soviet manufactured defense aircraft form the bulk of the air equipment that is falling down from the sky on the bigger side which spends more money on its economy and people than on arms race which only benefits supplier nations all of which are western powers.
7
@SL
As my ID, I always have HOPE for peace.
YES, Our biggest enemy in the world is ignorance, terrorism, and poverty. Pak and India should live in peace, destroy ignorance and poverty not each other.
Your words reflect your opinion but not Indian mindset, they specialize in warmongering.
If Pakistanis and Indians can live in peace in US and abroad why can't they live peacefully in the SE Asia region?
Extremist and radical people throughout world use hate and violence, which is evil. Such elements are every where, however India has an extremist government bent backward to impose radical ideology whih is unacceptable. India cries foul when claims Pakistani non state actors attack India ( very wrong if they do ), but supports terror herself, pay TALIBAN the evil to spread bloodshed in Pakistan, support insurgencies in other countries.
Remember you can't push any country around for long eventually they will fight back.
PEACE is the way but India has to realize she started this mess and now take steps to normalize relations.
Thanks for reaching out.
1
Indian dog and pony show/lies about surgical strikes has disastrous consequences. Modi should hold his head in shame!
The world just saw what Indian lies of “killing 300 terrorists” inside of Pakistan can lead to. That’s the most absurd think that anyone could even think of...
This is not Bollywood. Welcome to the real world readers. Peddling lies and propaganda has real consequences if not outright nuclear war.
There shouldn’t be any ambiguity about that. Watch what you write and wish for!
28
@TS
There is a simple solution for this. Pakistan should stop supporting Terrorists across neighbors India and Afghanistan.
Despite the terrorism on both sides of the border the fact remains that both countries infrastructure i.e. human resources, technology, reach within their own country remains minimal. Both countries don't have complete picture of what activities are going right under their nose. So these organizations can operate with impunity not because they are well funded and have the know-how nor have public support but they operate because both sides law enforcement are flat out incompetent.
11
There is no such thing as "nonmilitary strikes". We cross LOC, go deep into other sovereign country's territory, send 12 Mirage 2000 planes and drop four 2200 pounds bombs, killing as claimed over 300 terrorists or citizens of the country on other side of the border, and then claim that it was a nonmilitary strike. Which country including the United Nations is going to believe that?
Agreed, there was a terrorist cum suicide bomb attack from people across the border. However, to ascribe such attacks as a Sovereign action will be difficult to convince the world. We can not establish Nexus between Terrorists and the Sovereign nation called Pakistan so easily.
Take an example of the infamous 911 attack on World Trade Center which totally savaged entire iconic tower and killed over 3500 innocent lives. Even the United States could not describe it as Saudi Arabia sponsored attack in spite of the fact that 90% of terrorists were of Saudi origin.
Instead of launching Air Strikes across the border, what Narendra Modi could have done was to call up the Pakistan President Imran Khan and held a personal meeting at neutral place immediately, accompanied by a full strength of officials on either side to diffuse the situation. That is called shrewd diplomacy which would have garnered support from US, UK, EU, Russia, China and other middle east nations. Pakistan could have been cornered successfully to take actions against JEM and others.
76
@Anil Selarka Hello, please wake up. I think we had exhausted all the options possible. ALL. This was 25 yrs too late. Our pacifist policies signaled weakness and led us to this situation. At least this retaliation breaks that cycle once it for all and sets a new norm.
22
@Anil Selarka Which world have you been living in for the last 30 years? :)
The last time Modi went to Pakistan for the personal meeting, there was Uri attack. Before that when Atal Bihari was hugging Pakistan's PM, at the exact same time, it's military chief Musharraf was plotting an insurgency in Kargil to split land routes to Kashmir. Those games have been played for decades. The fact is there are 3 power centers in Pakistan. Its military, its government and ISI. No amount of shrewd diplomacy can put Pakistani government in control of its military.
64
@Anil Selarka I applaud you for writing such a level headed comment and displaying such maturity by not directly linking a sovereign nation and a militant group. Like you said conjecture isn’t enough to convince the world that a highly aggressive action, that is, the so called “non-military strike” against a sovereign nation was completely justified as there isn’t any definitive evidence that directly links the militant group and the sovereign nation in question. I just hope this issue gets resolved ASAP and that the media in both the countries doesn’t stoop down to inciting the citizens with inflammatory and provocative news coverage just for the sake of viewership as it has notoriously done in the past.
13
Will cooler heads prevail? After all, it all has a simple explanation. "All" includes the original British-imposed partition. The explanation? Boys will be boys.
As Trump has business investments in India (that also violate both Indian Law and the Corrupt Foreign Practices Act) his motivations are suspect, as always.
4
To me, the objectives of both India and Pakistan have been achieved. It would be wise for both countries to de-escalate from here and sign an agreement with Pakistan to return the pilot back and declare victory.
Modi has successfully changed the course of discussion from his poor management of Indian economy and various corruption scandals to Pakistan, a convenient target.
I hope Modi will now take a step back, but I am not too sure given how poor his decision making has proven in the past.
144
@Old Major Could you spell out what you mean by poor management of the Indian economy? Is it just demonetization that is causing you to generalise because the last time I checked in the entire emerging market universe (Brazil, China, Turkey, Chile, Saudi Arabia, UAE etc etc), India seems to be doing ok.
And perhaps you want to elaborate on Modi's poor decision-making by comparing it to the past historical record of other Indian PMs (eg) Indira Gandhi (decision to storm the Golden Temple) or Rajiv Gandhi (support of Sri Lankan government against LTTE), V P Singh (implementing Mandal commission resulting in student immolation) or Dr Manmohan Singh
14
@Old Major:
Your comment is written from someone with a Chinese slant.
You do know that China has been in both economic and military battles with India for decades. And they support Pakistan and have allied with them, to the extent that today Pakistan and China both "own" (occupy) parts of Indian Kashmir.
The issue has nothing to do with Modi or India.
The central issue comes from Pakistan's use and acquiescence to terrorists. Why will Pakistan not fight terrorism, especially terrorists that benefit it (and attack Indian Kashmir)? India has asked this question repeatedly.
Any answers?
4
@Angel Please don't go any farther, Read the joint report published in many newspapers including NYTimes from 21 Indian political parties. That would be a prima facie evidence.
Let peace prevail, Nuclear conflict is unthinkable.
India asked for it Pakistan delivered, Pakistan has the right to defend itself.
India bruised and beaten, should simply restrain to avoid nuclear conflict.
15
@Hope786 Yes, Pakistan has right to defend itself.
But Pakistan doesn't really have any threats. India and Pakistan have same enemies. India just did what US did a few years ago to go after your honored guest who killed thousands of Americans.
Let's go after terrorists:together. Pakistan has suffered no less than India. It's time to act before its too late. World expects more out of us and it's time we delivered.
7
modi tried to play dirty politics just before the election, and now india had to pay for it by losing two jets, and a helicopter, plus pilots. modi and his team should be jailed for escalating this issue so that he can gain votes in the coming election. this was orchestrated by modi and his team for political gains alone, and nothing more.
23
@hola - did you forget the initial attack that started this whole episode? On Feb 14 a suicide bomber killed 40 Indian soldiers and we know who did it.
4
@RB
An angry Kashmiri youth did the attack, who himself along with his family was tortured by indian army a few years back.
1
@Qayyum:
Please do not repeat unproven hysteria.
The man who committed the terrorist attack on Feb 14 was a member of the J-e-M terrorist group that has had longstanding support from Pakistan, and has kept training camps in Pakistani territory.
India went into Pakistan to attack that terrorist camp, and then after attacking they quietly left Pakistan. This was the same method used by the US when they went into Pakistan to capture Osama.
In both cases, Pakistan was either a supporter or ignorant of terrorists on their land.
-- The central issue: Pakistan must stop terrorism. --
This could be good news.
The fear must be of escalation after the earlier airstrikes. That gets a lot worse with a second set of airstrikes the next day. Shooting down one or two might put an end to the escalation.
Shooting down one or two aircraft is widely treated as an appropriate and satisfactory response to airstrikes.
It is taken rather badly by the nation that loses aircraft, but it chose to risk them, and so generally can accept some loss, although unhappy about it. They are unhappy enough about it for it to be an adequate response to the strike.
Call it even. Stop now. Huff and puff a bit, but stop shooting. This is reckless.
55
@Mark Thomason Couldn't agree more. What started it was a blame game by Indian Government to win support in upcoming elections, a reckless choice indeed.
12
@Mark Thomason that calculation only works if you ignore the original strike killing 11 Indian ground forces by a group allegedly supported by Pakistan. Tit-tat-tit is the current state of affairs, and the decision to hit not just one but two aircraft, presumably killing the crews, smacks of big-time escalation.
11
@WAX brother it's 44 not 11. Terrorist from Pak has always caused attacks on India. We give them proof they deny it.
Kasab was the biggest living proof from 26/11 attacks in Mumbai.
We have been silent for a long time.
8