For the small-minded, like so many of our elected officials, and their crudely educated rural electorate,
anecdotal examples are their answers to science and logic.
They need to be reminded, over and over again, that the exception to a rule, proves the rule.
God help us out of this situation we are in.
Mr. Trump, you should be ashamed of yourself. You are a disgrace.
3
Abortion has never been taken lightly by anyone except by uneducated female and male politician's. I knew that Mr. Trump was an ignorant man but to listen to him speak last night I realized that his hate has no bottom.
Watching the GOP white men /women jump up and applaud his comments surrounding abortion sicken my stomach.
Thank goodness we have smart women in office now to save the democracy ship
5
So the Susan B. Anthony tweet claims Trump is "our nation's most pro life president ever." This, after Trump claimed in his SOTU address that NY legislators favored allowing babies 'to be ripped from their mother's womb moments from birth."
This gaslighting and hypocrisy is enough to make one gag. Pro life? Let's talk about babies and children being ripped from their mother's at the border, and housed in camps. Pro life? Nothing in this president's agenda, or in the evangelicals who cling to him, is pro life.
16
Abortion is the ultimate woman choice, why on earth, politicians keep talking about this personal matter and trying to score some silly points...
There are a lot of successful men that I know whom are liers and braggarts. I know of no reason in particular why a lier and a braggart shouldn’t make a good President.
How is President Trump lying about New York's new abortion statute? The statute allows a woman to have an abortion right up to the end of the third trimester, if her health is at risk. Health includes mental health. A woman may murder her baby if she is stressed out. To conduct an abortion in the ninth month of pregnancy, the abortionist must kill the baby in utero by dissecting it. This is this grisly truth. No amount of obfuscating by this columnist will change that.
7
KristenB,
Your statement that abortion harms no one is totally false. It kills the life in the womb.
6
Time for a two million person march between the White House and Mar a Lago, with rotten eggs and tarred and feathered crosses
2
When a person close to the anti abortion idiots dies from a do-it-yourself or back ally abortion, perhaps they'd get a more realistic attitude. My mother's best friend was orphaned around 100 years ago due to restrictions. We are still in the dark ages culturally. Abortion should not even be discussed by politicians, much less men, much less legislated against. It's nobody's business but the woman involved, period.
4
Funny how the GOP has no interest in babies and children after birth. Cages? Lost paperwork on parents? No problem!
6
the origin of anti-abortion theory is that women can't be trusted. given a man's holy power of life to nurture, we're just liable to remove it, thus robbing him of his right to reproduce. a man thinks, it's just not fair, that's all. why should she have the womb? i would be so much better at managing it. and so i will.
2
Yes, it is more than ironic that such an amoral and adulterous misogynist has become the savior of the unborn. Trump is a hypocrite and a liar of the worst kind..all for his own insatiable ego and perverted soul. He does not care one wit about the unborn or for that matter, children. Would anyone with a shred of decency and compassion dare do to innocent children from south of our borders what he did/does so cruelly? Would decent parents anywhere deny their children affordable health care here in the US if it can be attained?
But what is just as perverted and hypocritical are his pro-life supporters. Think about it. These people call themselves Christians. For their own radical ideology, they would follow Satan himself. They say they read the Bible, but Jesus himself is probably rolling over in his tomb, witnessing how his teachings are dismissed so heartlessly. Too many of his "people" judge others. Too many of his people are blind and deaf to the words: Let those among us without sin, cast the first stone.
3
Tump loves himself and money above all else and will do anything to get/promote it whether moral, just or legal or by accident correct.
Republican's outraged concern for a fetus, as well as for the war on Christianity, is totally fake.
They use this to rile up their base to vote Republican, because Republicans know that their base does not like to get ripped off by the old "trickle-down" con--so, rile them up with horror stories about abortion.
Republicans will ultimately lose this battle, but not without first ruining many American's lives.
2
It seems to me unlikely that Donald Trump has ever paid for an abortion, but I am prepared to believe that Michael Cohen has.
3
As even a quick skim though the thread demonstrates, if you are pregnant, an anti-abortion zealot believes it is his duty to protect the fetus, and only the fetus. If that means you, the mother, die, so be it.
That is the "morality" of anti-abortion zealots--it is the "morality" of the Crusades and the Inquisition. It was faith-based homicide then; it is faith-based homicide now.
4
How much do you want to bet that Trump paid for an abortion when he was a young man?
2
Try as she might, she cannot run from it. You advocate the murder of viable fetuses. For convenience. For your convenience. So does criminal Cuomo and any other advocate that ignores viable life. We will NEVER cease. Not in the midst of a monstrous betrayal of trust on the part of the criminal catholic church, the disgraceful silence of the AMA which knows FULL WELL fetuses are viable outside the womb well before third trimester, or pandering politicians not worth the time of day. ANY abortion at over 20 weeks is murder. Would-be mothers know this in their souls. Baby shoppers for the trappings of their facebook lives? They know nothing of life.
2
I have no doubt Trump has, or would have, funded an abortion if it were expedient for him to do so
4
I have often thought that Trump should be publicly challenged over and over again (rather like he did to Obama over his birth certificate) on whether he has ever payed for an abortion. I’m sure if Michael Cohen doesn’t know himself, there is some fixed out there who does know.
1
How do we know that the president lies? His mouth is open and sound is coming out.
4
His core supporters love Trump's brilliant use of hyperbole. He has taken conservative absurdities (remember Obamacare death panels) to new heights. Ripping live babies from wombs days before birth. Hordes of rapists and murders flocking to the border in caravans. Ridiculous claims about abortion are just another example of Trump's awareness that a large segment of the American public will believe any statement he makes. Truth is no longer relevant.
3
Of course I could not watch the farce of this man's SOTU- no surprises there. In reading about it after, I was a bit surprised that he mentioned abortion at all: His main tool to split the country these days seems to be his fictitious wall.
Divide & Conquer! What a great way to lead a great nation.
But no surprise that he brought up the important issue of abortion in such an off-hand and duplicitous manner, however. The more we fuss & squabble about the garbage that comes out of his mouth, the more damage he can do to our country behind the scenes. Stay strong!
Talk about defining deviance down...you have to wonder what sort of perverted person actually believes that an end of term pregnant woman would actually choose to abort a healthy infant? Are their minds so sick and disturbed they think this is actually a possibility? I wonder what sort of abnormal life form that considers itself human would even consider this sort of thing a strong possibility. I can only assume that this person is only projecting their own sick desires on someone else. I think what needs legislating at this point is more mental health care....it looks like a deeply deviant group of people that calls itself ironically "pro-life" need it
3
The unpoetic license that the right to lifers and the likes of Trump are taking vis a vis the New York law is disgusting. They are wrongly twisting the truth into a pretzel of falsehoods, purely for the sake of scoring political points with their base. That they appear to care less about people once they are actually born only nails the coffin shut on their hypocrisy.
2
Great piece.
"After the State of the Union, abortion opponents, among the president’s most loyal backers, were ebullient. “Once again President Trump has proved he is our nation’s most #ProLife president ever,”
How odd that would coincide with his inability to tell the truth - objectively analyze any topic more than 140 words in length.AND his role as climate science denier in chief:
And with a life long resume as an amoral grifter and womanizer.
At their foundation, all religions are about using God as an excuse for men to dominate women, through the ages. The rest is just smoke and mirrors for the purpose of distraction. Men lead, women follow. God says.
The abortion issue is the last tool in the scoundrel's bag in an information age that is exposing religion for what it is. I'd like to have a nickle for every nun that was forced to have an abortion by a priest. The same holds for acolytes in every religion who were subjugated by their leaders to end an illicit pregnancy. Double for politicians who have forced women to have abortions.
I spent most of my life in N.Y. and I have been aware of Donald Trump for all of that life. The thing that drives me the craziest is when this heathen drapes himself in the cloak of religion to decry a practice that, up until two years ago, he was fine with. Anyone who knows Trump, knows he's a showman and knows his recent conversion is for show. But the fact that so many people buy into this pharisees' false narrative makes me wonder if, one of the reasons, America has lost it's way is because Religion has.
1
Trump is only happy if he can incite verbal riots. He degrades & humiliates everyone. (I hope he didn't use this as one of his parent skills Yikes )
Many children await adoption of foster homes. Pro life Anti choice persons have no right to demand unwanted births while these children need loving homes. Show me a pro.life foster parent and I will cede the moral high ground, until then you have no right to judge or dictate.
Let me tell you as a woman from the she is a criminal because she had an illegal abortion era, I find the abortion issue in VA most unfortunate. If the bill has no chance of passing do not bring it up. I knew right from the beginning that the anti-abortion crowd would pick it up and try to get the ball into the end zone, by which I mean the overturning of Roe v Wade. The issues of late term abortion are too nuanced for the you're gonna rip the fetus out of the womb and kill it crowd to understand.
1
This is not really about abortion, but about sex. The same rabid Inquisitioners who claim to be so riled up about abortion are also against -- wait for it -- BIRTH CONTROL, which is the single best way to reduce the number of abortions to near zero. These are mean-spirited people so full of hate that Jesus would certainly have nothing to do with them. They are incapable of enjoying sex and are therefore resentful of anyone who does. They are fanatically and sadistically devoted to viewing an unplanned pregnancy as a punishment for violating THEIR warped version of morality.
2
The unviability of the fetus was not remotely what the Governor was talking about. They were talking about terminating the new born baby of a mother who had mental issues about it. The fact that you would lie about this in one of the most circulated papers is frightening and disgusting.
3
According to this: https://www.americamagazine.org/rha2019 (a Jesuite publication), the new New York Law,
there is something in the new New York Law on abortion that will generate endless animosity between parts, and that it will be
(is!) used as a wedging tool by politicians:
``the R.H.A. also modifies sections of the New York state penal code to eliminate references to abortion. Prior to these changes, the definition of homicide included causing the death of a person (defined as “a human being who has been born and is alive”) or of an unborn child if the woman has been pregnant for more than 24 weeks. After the removal of abortion from the penal code, the existing definition of person as “a human being who has been born and is alive” remains—but because there is no longer any reference whatsoever to unborn children as possible victims of homicide, the law now effectively excludes them from the definition of “human person.”
"The president lied about abortion in the State of the Union."
When does this go without saying as trump lies about EVERYTHING??!!
Did anyone expect Trump to have a compassionate response? He basically without a conscience. Trump's base is all about promoting the idea that abortion is little better than a liberal holocaust. The famous saying that the GOPs concern for the life of the poor or non white children ends at birth.
It is time for the pro choice movement to face the facts. They have failed. They will never be able to match the ferocious grassroots energy of the anti abortion activists, so firmly anchored by the enormous corporate resources of the Republican Party.
Supporting late term abortions in cases of extreme medical emergencies, should have easily been a slam dunk in terms of controlling the media narrative. I am a pro reproductive justice voter, and I’m always confounded how this cause barely manages to get by the seat of its pants.
1
If comfort care of neonates is murder someone should look into Palliative Care for adults. I am an interventional cardiologist in a community hospital (Catholic owned by the way). Every day patients or the family decide to give up on active treatment. They are extubated if they were on a ventilator, given a morphine drip and pass away with dignity. Value of life does not mean that we provide futile care.
3
I don't remember other presidents bringing up abortion in a state of the union address. Only Donald Trump would poke at this open wound that afflicts our country in such a sensationalized way. And speaking of sensationalized, here is a verse from the bible (Hosea13:16) "The people of Samaria must bear the consequences of their guilt because they rebelled against their God. They will be killed by an invading army, their little ones dashed to death against the ground, their pregnant women ripped open by swords." Kind of sounds like God condones late term abortions when it's convenient for him or he is ticked off. Wonder how the religious right justifies this.
3
Dear NYT:
This columnist is at best a propagandist, and at worst, is guilty of lying -- the very thing for which she attacks Trump.
Goldberg claims that in Virginia, "when a woman terminates a pregnancy because the fetus has severe abnormalities and can’t survive outside the womb, it falls under the rubric of protecting her mental health."
Statutory interpretation does not involve deciphering secret and unstated "rubrics," and Goldberg is misleading us about the context of Northam's statement.
Northam was not commenting on the existing statute, which requires three doctors to certify that the mother would experience severe and irreversible harm by giving birth.
Northam's comments were directed at a proposed new law that eliminates the need for approval by a panel of doctors, and eviscerates the required standard of harm.
If Virginia law was read as Goldberg contends -- as somehow implicitly requiring that the baby not be viable for a third trimester abortion -- then it should be amended to state this, not loosened further to allow late term abortion on demand, requiring only a claim of maternal stress.
Yet Northam did not advocate an express viability test, only a greatly relaxed late term standard.
Statutes must be supposed interpreted expressly, not in the loosey-goosey fashion advocated by Golderg -- especially when they allow for the destruction of a tiny human life.
5
So does the media! Culture wars generate more clicks and sell more advertising and subscriptions. It's a symbiotic relationship.
Trupm was right. The governor of Virginia - the classic example of moral posturing hypocrat that has taken over the Democratic Party - did explain his vision of the new abortion law the Democrats want to pass in Virginia and such a law would allow for the killing of babys (at least in the words of the governor). And this proposed law is a wedge issue just as much as the law recently passed in New York is. Most Americans neither want to outlaw abortion al together nor leave it without any limits such as just done in New York. President Trump's proposal is most likely very close to where most Americans stand on that issue and so it was good leadership to push this compromise.
2
Republicans long ago concluded that abortion is the perfect issue along with gun rights, religious freedom, gay and LGBT issues to keep all the true believers from focusing on economic issues. As long as they can drive the fear and bigotry associated with those issues the rubes will keep voting against their own financial interests as Republican policies pick their pockets and hand the proceeds over to the top 1% and their big donors. Does anyone seriously believe tRump cares about abortion or religion?
1
This is only the beginning people. Trump is devoid of ANY fragment of humanity, decency, empathy, and frankly self respect. He is willing to go where frankly the majority of men and women could and would not. He is a criminal clothed in supposed billions of dollars. The irony is that he is no different than the MS13 monsters he cites continually. (I told my daughter he would use the murder on the NYC subway. I just didn’t think in the SOTU!
He is an animal and I for one wish he does not run in 2020. If we thought the past few years were horrendous, we have not seen anything like what is coming.
1
Obtrusive religious zealots and our cynical opportunistic commander in chief marching in lockstep to trample the rights of pregnant women in fervent defense of the unborn, who once delivered, are largely ignored.
Loyal Republicans, characteristically and blithely hypocritical, they see no inconsistency in their membership in a political party determined to repeal, or at least undermine and destabilize, the Affordable Care Act.
Ideology absent humanity, seeking fulfillment on some otherworldly plane, while wreaking havoc on the lives of vulnerable young women confronting deeply personal, heart-rending issues.
Under a parliamentary system, single-issue voters can form their own political parties. Here in the US, most single issue voters obsess about abortion and/or guns.
1
According to Trump: "And then we had the case of the governor of Virginia where he stated he would execute a baby after birth.”
When I hear that, I know it isn't true because governors, however bad they may be, do not advocate murdering babies. It's obvious to me that Trump is distorting some anecdote or just lying.
I do not understand why anyone would take Trump's nonsense and debate it seriously. No pro-choice person believes the allegation. And, believe it or not, there are intelligent pro-life people who are also going to know that
Trump is wrong.
In my opinion the abortion debate should not run off into ridiculous tangents. And so the allegation of a murderous governor should just be ignored.
One troubling aspect of this very troubling issue is that the news media is amazingly deficient in understanding the specifics of abortion law. Many on the national media stage have stumbled badly in explaining Northam's position, or in informing readers or listeners about late-term abortions, why they happen, and how devastating they can be -- even without weirdo anti-abortion zealots sticking their obtrusive nastiness into a woman's deeply personal life.
If I were a Democrat running for office, or in office, I would make it a point of emphasis to counter the Trump-like intentional stupidity of "pro life" advocates with facts, facts and more facts.
Kathy Tran, of Virginia, absolutely, on camera, admitted to her legislation allowing the abortion of a baby while the mother was dilating, even if only for the mother's mental health. That is not just late term abortion, that's infanticide, plain and simple. She was not being asked about the physical health of the mother or baby, just the mother's mental health. For Michelle Goldberg to miss what the legislation was about, and then accuse the president of lying is DISHONEST AT BEST, and I can think of a lot of other adjectives that describe what she did in this article at worst.
2
The relativist metaphysic that shapes thinking, the equivocating character of American left, and their proclivity for "on the one hand this, and on the other hand that," coupled with "who are we to judge," is dry tinder for cultural wars.
Now, popular opinion holds that the supremacists in Charlottesville are about as much to blame as Anti-fa protesters. Because the latter were protesting too.
Trump lit a great fire at the SOU. He showcased a Hispanic border agent ("see, I love Hispanics"), a freed black woman ('see, I love blacks"), and a holocaust survivor ('see, I love Jews"). This washes over, the our popular discourse, Trump's desire for an ethno-religious state, women in bondage, and poor people breathing dioxin and drinking lead. To Americans, these are equivalent forces that cancel each other out.
If the culture of the right is despicable and abhorrent on account of its anti-poor, supremacist, misogynistic convictions, the left is weak, shallow and morally bankrupt ("all opinions, points of view, and actions are equally meritorious, individual achievement through hard work is a coincidence), and economically infeasible ('we want free everything, and two of it, with someone else paying").
These two malignant strains in the culture are too far apart to avoid a war.
Trump loves splattering lies and insults around him. He's not used to being contradicted or corrected. While I understand "culture war" I have trouble associating culture of any kind with Trump.
It's too bad men can't get pregnant ; if they did perhaps they would leave this issue alone . Unfortunately the woman is the vessel and vassal of a man's reproductive prowess and treated as such by a certain portion of the population . Very biblical , hypocritical stance .
Not sure about Trump's culture war but it is you who is stepping on the truth not he.
Trump is a bombast and he is having all of you for lunch. There is nothing more attractive to a bully and a bombast than to sow confusion and then watch the actions unfold as the rest scramble to undo his or her follies. It is about time that rather than get rankled every 2 hours by what Trump is saying that instead we figure out a concerted and coordinated strategy to defeat him next year at the polls. I still don't see that happening. Everything will rapidly unwind for this man once he is off his power base. Everything that you wish should happen to this bombast will occur once he is removed from office. Let us make that removal a priority. Everything else is a distraction at this point. Or as they as in Physics : Don't worry about the 4th order corrections until you have fixed the first order error.
Have seen many SOTAs. This one went on a bit long, but I thought it was a good one, and didn't I see many of the "ladies in white" stand up and applaud him a few times, LOL?
The pendulum has swung to the right a little for the time being; in time it will go the other way, so fans on that side, be of good cheer. Meanwhile the mighty US plows on.
1
So Ms. Goldberg wants us to rely upon her for what constitutes a "a ridiculous hypothetical". Where I come from a ridiculous hypothetical is when pigs fly. I can't imagine there is anyone anywhere that thinks that there is anything ridiculously hypothetical in a discussion regarding the taking of a human life; the exception being of course, Ms. Goldberg.
Quite frankly what a woman decides to do with her fetus is between her and her God. It doesn't affect me and I couldn't care less. Let me be clear, I am not pro choice, but I don't make it a habit of standing in front trains either. There are consequences for all that we do.
2
"That governor, Ralph Northam, is not an easy man to defend at the moment, given the vile racist photographs recently discovered in his medical school yearbook, and the way he’s clinging to office despite near-universal Democratic calls for his resignation."
So, I should get exercised about the Republicans using abortion as a wedge issue, while the Democrats are using race as a wedge to cut themselves into pieces?
Oh, what a lovely war!
2
“Once again President Trump has proved he is our nation’s most #ProLife president ever,” tweeted the Susan B. Anthony List.
Some restrictions, based on religion, skin colour, or political differences, may apply.
2
“Once again President Trump has proved he is our nation’s most #ProLife president ever,” tweeted the Susan B. Anthony List.
Some restrictions, based on religion, skin colour, or political differences, may apply.
Fine writing, Michelle. You reveal how important it is to get reproductive law right:
“'Sophia learned that the fetus had multiple severe anomalies as a result of her cancer treatment, and was unlikely to survive after birth,' the group wrote. 'However, because Sophia’s pregnancy was beyond New York’s 24-week legal limit, providers would not take the apparent legal risk associated with performing an abortion.' She ended up traveling 2,000 miles to have the procedure in another state."
Right Wingers are back to 17th century torture to women who don't toe the line when it comes to suffering under male-instituted laws. God knows why there are women today who submit to male domination. You are right, trump just games them.
I have a female relative who is pro-trump but who is adamantly for a woman's right to choose her reproductive strategy. Each year when we meet I tell her that she should be a Democrat. If she is Republican because of the economy, both Bill Clinton and Barack Obama led magnificent economic recoveries.
A women should have the right to choose; she has family, friends, the medical profession with psychiatric help, social workers and clergy, to help her. She does not need men in the federal government to threaten and force her to adhere to a biased law. And she definitely does not need trump. No one does.
I'm sick and tired of the Republican Party and conservatives dictating what a woman should do with her body and advocating small government in the same breath. It's a contradiction that these people seem to have conveniently forgotten or put aside.
Go to any other developed nation, and their solution is simple: The decision should be left to the woman after consultation with her doctor and discussions with her family. That's it.
But no, we HAD to bring religion into this, did we? We HAD to put ideology over science, healthcare and a doctor's professional analysis, do we? We just don't trust our women to make this difficult decision by themselves, don't we?
83
Due to the CDC, the rate of abortions after 21 weeks is 1.3% out of the reported 638k total abortions in 2015, but it estimates most of them are before 24 weeks. So, third-trimester abortion is very rare. Due to the American Society for the Positive Care of Children, 7.2M children are involved in child abuse and estimated 1,720 children died in 2017.
Could we please abolish the antiquated and meaningless term "pro-life"?
These folks are not "pro-life". They are pro forced birth. They equate the struggle a woman goes through while facing an abortion, to murder.
They want to have the state power to come to your home, break down your door, and drag you off to a prison, or a prison hospital, to make you bring a fetus to term, even if that fetus is born dead, or the product of rape, or incest.
The clash of cultures is a lively remnant of tribalism that reason has not yet eradicated. It is a signpost that humanity is still barely out of the jungle and the cave. Sad those or manifest and encourage tribalism as, if history teaches, has the end of violence, oppression and death.
I beg to differ Ms. Goldberg. Democrats love culture wars. Mr. Cuomo proudly lit up the Freedom tower to celebrate an abortion bill that is quite divisive in NY and elsewhere. Mr. Northam was responding to a hypothetical question and he responded with the answer. It happened to be the truth about the bill.Here's a question for you - are you in favor of killing a 32 week pre term infant ( 32 weekers survive routinely and need little of no supportive care) because of the mothers mental health reason such as anxiety, depression, etc. ? Forget the anecdotes about abnormalities etc. By the way, the 32 week pre term infant must be killed with poison (KCl) since otherwise it would be delivered alive and ready for life.
4
Meanwhile, in Yemen children starve to death and we watch. In other countries, children are kidnapped, stolen in slavery or prostitution, or simply not cared for as they should be in this country and wherever humans care and share with each other. I am a mother but have not had to face any trauma over a fetus with abnormalities, nor my own health in considering an abortion. Until we as a country can care for those children who are alive and are not cared for, regardless of any reason, then this matter of the fetus should be secondary. We are substituting the real moral question of whose child is it with the mother placed in an unjust position by the rules and laws of some arcane and inhumane set of conditions. There needs to be a study of where these anti-abortion, atavistic religious rules for women and abortion are made: slavery states? Ordinary states w/higher education graduates? Solid workforce and income levels? Virginia as the locus for so much of late has an odd tremor to all: Charlottesville, this abortion matter from the Bill presented to their legislative body, and the matter of slavery through the prism of the top three officials of the state.
1
“America was founded on liberty and independence — not government coercion, domination and control. We are born free, and we will stay free,” Said Donald Trump last night.
40
@Lillijag- "Except for pregnant women," he should have added.
14
@Lillijag unless you were black. or native.
11
"The infant [born with grave fetal problems], [Northam] said, would be delivered and kept comfortable while the family decided how to proceed." What could "how to proceed" mean other than killing the infant? What could keeping the infant "comfortable" while the family decides "how to proceed" mean other than the infant will be kept comfortable until the family decides that the infant should be killed? What am I missing here?
25
@Jay Orchard
What you're missing is that the hypothetical infant was born with grave health problems that meant it wouldn't survive no matter what they did (such as in the real case of the baby with its brain outside its skull). It then becomes a question of whether to try to keep it alive as long as possible or to let it die without prolonging its suffering. Hence "how to proceed."
279
@Jay Orchard I am a labor nurse. Sometimes it is impossible for a variety of reasons to save every baby. We attempt to save those we can, for others that are born too early to insert an endotracheal tube to provide respiratory support, what would you suggest we do? For those that are born with syndromes incompatible with life, we can only provide compassion and support to the parents. It's called palliative care. It hurts to see this happen. We aren't the enemies. All life is important to us, so please do your own research.
391
A lot. The goal would be to keep the baby comfortable while they assess the options and level of care to provide the baby. Forty-five year’s ago, my older brother was born with severe abnormalities, among them a two-chambered heart and misplaced organs. By all accounts he should have miscarried while in utero, but he was born and my mother was faced with the prospect of a child who would die within hours, days or weeks. They recommended she forget about him and leave him at the hospital where he would be cared for until he died. At that time they did not have the means to prolong his life in any meaningful way, for all I know they still don’t. She took him home and he lived 30 days. She never regrets her choice and I have always admired the strength she had make that decision and to get through that. How a family chooses to ease the suffering of their child and how they choose to prolong its life is between them and their doctors.
213
Trump has seen the light and realized abortion is evil. Sure, he’ll need to come to terms with his past if he participated in abortive activity, but as Americans we are a forgiving people.
1
Please tell me this is sarcasm. There is nothing in Trump's life and career that suggests he's ever seen the light on anything but his own venal and narcissistic interest.
If Trump were so concerned about the "sanctity of life" he would be all over the gun folks. There is absolutely no logical tether to tie between a viable 1st grader being shot in a classroom along with his/her teacher and a non-viable, late term fetus with severe, non-survivable birth defects being kept alive artificially and symbolically for religious and political purposes.
100
As a nurse with 45 years experience in Labor & Delivery and Intensive Care, I can assure you President Trump's comments on abortion are outrageous. A full term pregnancy is 40 weeks. The facts support that 98.6 percent of abortions happen before 21 weeks. The few remaining abortions performed after 24 weeks are due to (1) serious fetal anomalies not identified earlier in pregnancy or (2) to preserve the life of the mother.
To Trump's Base: please don't accept everything President Trump says at face value. You are being manipulated. Trump has a compulsive habit of exaggerating and lying on many topics, making reasonable public discussion nearly impossible.
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@Sunny
Please define health of the mother? Will she suffer death or serious injury - even the Catholic Church won't argue that one. Or do you mean mental health which can be almost anything. And yes you can always find a doctor who will certify things.
@Sunny
Thank you for your clarifying comments! The abortion "debate" needs input from medical professionals.
8
If abortion is a sin, that sin belongs to society as a whole. If you want to reduce abortions, provide free, quality pre-natal care, healthcare, and contraceptive care to all Americans. If you want to reduce abortions, improve economic and educational opportunities for women, especially women of color. If you want to reduce abortions, provide universal healthcare to all Americans. If you want to reduce abortion, teach comprehensive sex-ed in the schools. If you want to reduce abortion, teach men not to rape women. Until Republicans fully support measures that would actually decrease abortion, the sin of abortion is theirs just as much as anyone's.
308
@Tamarine Hautmarche
Why free contraceptives? There are plenty of charitable organizations that hand them out readily for free and I get that.. but why would you want government to pay for such a thing.. seems that should be on you.
As for universal health care I kind of agree. The capitalist model around health & wellness isn't quite the same as it is in other areas because people will give all to save the lives of loved ones or themselves.. and it needs to be closely scrutinized and regulated.
Government has a role to play there.. and if American politicians could set aside their differences they could look at all healthcare models globally and create one that would work for America without all the problems these other nations have.
@Roland - Name three of those organizations.
Unwanted children are expensive and taxpayers often end up footing the bill for them. It's in the best interest of all of us to avoid unwanted pregnancies.
33
@DR I can't. I just know their out there because I've seen them in human resource offices at places I've worked and schools.. so no more embarrassment for the young having to go into a pharmacy if they choose not to. I am pretty sure I could look it up but.. so can you.
Considering political approaches on immigration I'd say most governments are for their population to have children (in nations that are not over populated) So.. I kind of have to disagree with you there at least from a government view. Future taxpayers and all that.
It never fails to amaze me that most rants about freedom from oppression by government come from those who want the government to make one of the most significant decisions of a person's life. Busy ignoring the destruction of so many forms of life in the natural world and the depraved separation of real, living children from their desperate parents, these "pro-lifers" imagine that if they draw a protective line at abortion, they have a water-tight cloak of morality around them. Can anything get them to have a wider view of life , which they say they want to defend?
64
Donald Trump lies about anything and everything. He is aware that Americans can easily have their emotions inflamed over these issues, that is why he does it. He is just toying with the American people, because he can.
1
Donald Trump and the Catholic Church. Outstanding examples of probity and decency.
Just the sort of folks to hand out moral advice regarding women , children , or anything else requiring sympathy , compassion , and understanding of the human condition.
Why would anyone of character ever heed their advice ?
His salary is 6 million. He would lose 6 million a year if he won't say such things.
I find it very hard to believe that anti-abortion conservatives really believe that liberals and feminists want to allow killing of full-term babies. As for practicing something akin to human sacrifice, that's what some politicians do when they start or continue stupid wars for political advantage, not something liberals do. Some may really have the religious belief that life begins at conception, (though the RC Church came to that belief rather late), but the bible-thumping politicians who say it loudly are mostly just looking for a cause so they can be the leaders of it.
31
@Thomas
This isn't about religion. Do you believe in allowing a perfectly healthy 32 week preterm infant to be killed because of the mother's mental health? If you think it is OK then we are really headed down as a society. Society has an obligation to protect those who can't protect themselves.
4
Bottom line on this whole debate is it should not be a debate, period. It is between the woman and her partner, if there is one. We need to mind our own business, unless we offer to adopt all of the unborn children and bring them up in a loving and economically secure household. So when all of these Pro-lifers take on these responsibilities I will listen to them. Not a minute before.
2
I'm an old guy, and I have no female offspring. You might think I don't have a dog in this fight, but I do. Abortion bans, in any form, impose the power of the state on some of its citizens. The state does have the right to restrict individual rights, that is a price we pay for a civilized society.
But there should always be an overarching societal need for the state to intervene. In the case of abortion, I just don't see a threat to society that justifies state intervention.
Worse, the anti-abortion movement is an attempt by a segment of society to seize the power of the state and use it to impose particular religious beliefs on individuals who do not share those beliefs, in a most personal way.
A fundamental principle of our nation is the separation of church and state, including the right to believe as one wants, and the right to be left alone, so long as one does not harm or interfere with the rights of another.
If the state now assumes the power to intervene in abortions on religious grounds, then separation of church and state goes, too. And that has been the scourge of western civilization for hundreds of years, something that we are trying to avoid here.
7
As no one else seems to be pointing it out: The anti-abortionists also want to take most if not all forms of birth control away from women.
Given them political power over women's reproductive freedom at your peril.
5
In the interview the governor did say that the mother would decide post birth if the child would be allowed to die without measures being taken to save the child. Allowing a born child to die, is far beyond Roe v Wade. DT is not being honest about what was said, but neither is this piece.
2
Trump’s abortion comments were intended to provoke. Most intelligent commentators have had the sense not to play into his hand. Most.
2
While late term abortions are a complex matter, the threshold considerations are pretty clear to me. When men can have babies, they can have a say, until then it’s a woman’s choice.
2
Trump and his ilk are happy to latch onto the extremists view of everything if he feels it will give HIM and advantage. Obviously there are times when extreme medical circumstances will dictate the medical need for a damaged or non-viable pregnancy to be terminated. That OF COURSE never means they should happen at someones 'whim'.
This relates to Trump's argument that because the Democrats believe a "wall/fence" is a waste of money that Trump 4th grade logic JUMPS to the statement that Democrats want completely open and unprotected borders. That is nonsense. Obviously the answers is using modern technology ie: sensors and drones and manpower.
Trump's agenda will always be about FEAR.
Promoting Fear about abortions and fear about his silly wall/fence/peaches "plan".
1
Forcing a woman to give birth, no matter what the consequences to her, or the viability of the pregnancy or the fetus, is the triumph of Christian doctrine over government.
Separation of church and state is not acceptable to religious zealots. They must force government to enshrine their religious doctrine. Man making laws is insufferable; everything must be according to their god's law.
While Trump exploits self-righteous anger and hatred of Christians to mobilize them to suppress/oppress the laws of the majority, it is more the fault of the religious fanatics and hypocritical lawmakers than the Divider in Chief.
Our Founding Fathers set up a secular government, established by man for man, railed against the abuses of religion in European governments, wanted religious doctrine kept out of our government, but in the end, failed to wall out religion.
Christian fanatics won't be satisfied with outlawing abortion. Once they achieve that tenet of their religion, they will be emboldened to force more Christian doctrine into our lives.
Do you attend church every Sunday? The day is coming when the failure to attend church will be a civil crime punishable by fine (deposited to the church coffers)...followed by jail time for repeated offenses.
A woman's right to have control over her body will be sacrificed to the will of a god...as interpreted by hypocritical men. Our democratic republic will be a Christian theocracy. You will obey the laws of whichever denomination has power.
4
Stop calling the GOP “Pro-Life”. They are Pro-Birth. Republicans are just patriarchal misogynists who believe that women and their reproductive systems should be under a man’s control.
5
Pretty funny - the Left has been throwing it has against Trump and when Trump responds, it's said to be his fault.
5
@Amy
Talk about "blaming the victim".
3
I normally find little I like about Michelle's articles but this one is well written and clearly articulates reasonable thinking. So I think it's only fair to comment and pass on a "Well Done" when I do.
2
Unfortunately your President thrives on creating chaos and division, pitting one person against another. It is a classical feature of a schoolyard bully .
He uses the same technique with his dealings with other countries.
He lacks the intelligence and skills to solve problems, and he prefers to create new problems. He is however a masterful media manipulator, knowing the stories of human discord and bad news do sell copy, particularly to the not so bright, or the disgruntled.
3
Trump has no moral fiber. He is a poseur. As Americans, we need discriminate the difference between power and leadership. We need to think independently. You can be sure that Trump does not.
1
Ms. Goldberg never lets facts or reason get in the way of her preferred ideology. On Feb 1 she wrote the following about legislation: “She might have pointed out that legislation is not generally written with an eye to prohibiting ridiculous and unprecedented scenarios.” Clearly someone subsequently explained to her that any semi competent lawmaker or lawyer would in fact write legislation to cover highly unusual but conceivable scenarios, so she’s avoided that ridiculous statement in this column. But she continues her mendacious attempt to obfuscate on the issue of post-viability abortion.
The Virginia and NY laws that are generating this furor do permit abortion if the mother’s health - very broadly defined to include “mental health”, which is not defined - is at risk. The hypothetical Ms. Tran was presented could indeed happen, as she acknowledged. And this is where the mendacity of the legislators as well as Ms. Goldberg become clear. Rather than acknowledging this hypothetical and amending the language, its proponents have resorted to a misinformation campaign to retain the original language. Obviously their true objective is unrestricted right to abortion throughout pregnancy.
This hiding of facts is deeply unfair to Americans who support abortion rights but are conflicted on late term abortion.
To those who claim the hypothetical will never happen: remember that newborns are sometimes (albeit rarely) left to die by mothers. The hypothetical can and does happen.
3
Could I please have a clear answer:
A pregnant women believes that she can
carry her daughter inside her womb anymore.
It is the 34th week of her pregnancy.
Can she, for psychological reasons, seek an abortion
and obtain it now in New York if she can find a qualified
Health Professional to carry it out.
Yes or No ?
2
@John Brown
Of course the answer is YES but Michelle will obfuscate it. Give Ms. Tran credit - she told the truth. Gov. Northam sounded like an idiot but he also told the truth.
2
While Trump is playing his culture-war games, a number of investigations are slowly tightening a noose around his neck. If Trump thinks his evangelical Christian base is going to lay down their lives to prevent his going to prison, I'm betting he's mistaken.
1
The VA bill can be read, and Governor Northam's words were recorded.
Maybe instead of fighting against the late term abortion label we should just support it, full stop.
Here's why: our feminists are an incredibly important part of our base, and they're clearly what allowed us to take the House back. This is evidenced by the white suited ones at last night's SOTU, and Stacey Abrams all-female audience backdrop. When you look at the cross-tabs of who votes for whom, married women with children tend to skew for the GOP. Regular church-goers skew even more strongly towards them.
When they see news of Democrats supporting late term abortion, they're already biased against the Progressive Truth that everything is nuanced and morally relative, and so we have no chance of winning them. But our base - the women who are single, who are feminists, who may want to have the option to get an abortion someday for whatever reason and at any point in their pregnancy, are our base.
Wouldn't it be a great signal to send to them that we do in fact support late term abortion? That we believe all women, no matter the evidence presented? That no matter what "moral standards" are brought up to constrain their range of choice, that we'll have their back?
What Michelle seems to be proposing is the weak middle path. Maybe we should embrace this!
The author is poorly informed. Ultrasound screening long ago eliminated the delayed discovery of fetal abnormalities in the third trimester, doing away with the argument that abortion would be required “up to birth” for a severely abnormal fetus. As far as fetal distress or fetal health problems around the time of birth, millions of babies are born in distress - this is why we have NICUs (neonatal intensive care units) in every hospital in the country. We do everything we can for them. And if a mother’s health is threatened near birth, or after 7 months, we have emergency cesarean sections.
Point being there isn’t a single circumstance under which anyone would need to perform infanticide right after birth or a late term abortion.
3
This from the man who kidnapped desperate children from desperate parents that caused untold trauma in children's lives so when he talks about abortion he talks about controlling women.
2
Any time someone suggests any kind of reform of gun laws, the Right rises up and says it's useless, because criminals just ignore laws.
So by that reasoning, putting any kind of restriction on abortion is pointless too, right?
But this isn't just about abortion; waging a Culture War is something far more insidious. Abortion, guns, etc, - wedge issues that cause brains to shut down and positions to harden. Just the thing for Trump and the Republican Party to use to change the subject away from the Trump train wreck, the wall obsession, and all the investigations going on.
But it doesn't stop at Culture War.
Instead of trying to meet Democratic policy proposals with real debate and viable alternatives, the Republicans are resorting to digging up any scandal they can use to destroy Democrats as individuals - as witness how right wing groups have blown up Democrats in Virginia. Their obsession with AOC is in large part because they've been unable - so far - to find a way to destroy her.
(But Trump's documented history of corruption, sexual predation, and racism doesn't matter. IOKIYAR.)
Distract, divide, destroy - that's how the GOP intends to stay in power, while they loot the country. And if they can keep people from voting and get help from Russia to swing elections, they'll do that too.
It's all they've got left. They have become a parasite on the body politic. They must all be removed from power.
It is absolutely, undeniably true that the difficult decisions surrounding an abortion must be made by the woman and her doctor. Full stop.
It is also true that late-term abortion is a suicide mission for Democrats in most of the country. Polls show us that less than 20% of the electorate support it, and it is a tailor-made issue for a lying mob-master like Trump. He demonstrated that very clearly in the SOTU, along with what use he intends to make of the issue.
If the Democratic party makes an issue of late-term abortion, or even fails to distance itself from it, they are giving Trump, and any red or purple state Republican a knotted stick to beat them with.
Yes, he's a child-caging, health-care denying hypocrite. But if you give him the "executing babies" line, you will be giving him, and his party a massive rhetorical wedge. Not all battles can be fought at all times. Forget this at your peril.
@Peregrinus
Not a Trump fan but he is a master of making the complex simple. If you don't believe it look how he single handedly destroyed Elizabeth Warren's even remote chance of getting the Democratic nomination. Do Democrats want to run on a platform that any abortion is fine till 40 weeks? Go try it and see how it works out.
@Bill
Well, yes. That's my argument. This is a loser issue for the Democrats at this time. It may be different once Trump gets his overdue comeuppance, but as it stands, we need to stay away from this fight. It's not a good hill to die on, regardless of how "right" we are.
And make no mistake, we're right. Late abortions are rare, and when they do happen, there's something terrible going on that should rightly remain between a woman and her doctor. Be we don't live in reality, we live in the decadent phase of a dying, consumerist world where perception, manipulation and "alternative facts" are reality. Pretend otherwise, and you lose.
When Pro-Life groups advocate as hard for generous government subsidies for infants, especially those with serious medical defects or those born to opioid or other drug addicted mothers unable to care for themselves or their babies as they advocate for every infant to be born, I will take them seriously.
Until then, I will regard them the way Christ regarded the money-changers in the Temple or, perhaps, the Pharisees.
4
Our Christian friends seem not to trust that their god will provide sufficient punishment for aborters - maybe they can be persuaded that s/he/it will. Then our secular state needs not get into the business of denying women the control of their own bodies.
This is not my idea alone. A man, I assume a Christian, was testifying before the Vermont Legislature, which is contemplating a bill similar to New York's, and he testified that god had punishment prepared for those who performed or received abortions.
So, let god take the wheel.
2
@Marc: The Roman Catholic Church holds that getting born alive is the "original sin" that God tests with the trials and travails of life to judge souls after death. According to this doctrine, the stillborn go straight to heaven.
I do not often seem to notice the choice argument that is most powerful to me. Given that there is a stark and difficult to reconcile philosophical/theological divide, who best to make the final choice? A legislator who is a stranger to the family who has decided in the abstract by passing an inflexible law, or the woman with whatever help she seeks from her family who together face the real world consequences? For me the mother/family of the fetus is best qualified to make these decisions.
3
@XLER @mary Prenatal care in the US has suffered terribly as a result of the abortion wars. Insufficient testing means anomalies going undectected and in many cases untreated. It is the tragic underbelly of the power of the extreme anti-abortion crowd. Poor prenatal care, poor care for pregnant women and new moms leads to our poor health outcomes, maternal death rates, high infant mortality.
3
@Beachbum
That is probably the least informed comment of the day. There is extensive prenatal testing in the US.
1
I was vaguely pro-choice until I actually became pregnant. I remember going for the anatomy scan early in the second trimester. I thought we would just learn whether it was a boy or girl. When they started telling me "the heart is fine, lungs fine, brain fine" etc... I realized the test was actually to identify those organs crucial to life (not gender!). And I realized other moms go to the same apt. and learn their baby is not fine. Then a close friend went through a physically painful miscarriage; the fetus wasn't expelling naturally but was no longer viable and she had to take abortion meds. (She went on to have a healthy baby a year later.) Becoming a mom made me (and my husband) MORE pro-choice because we understood issues better. I often wonder if anti-choice men completely skipped dr. apts. when their wives were pregnant (or don't have kids at all). This is much more complicated (and sometimes tragic) than just dealing expeditiously with "unwanted pregnancies."
8
I am absolutely pro-choice but no fan of abortion.
I wish all women never are faced with a situation that necessitates such an agonizing decision. Being more universally liberal and realistic about sex education, birth control, and family planning would help!
I just feel the higher moral ground is to defend women's autonomy of self. Autonomy a supposedly modern secular liberal democracy should afford them since it touts its devotion to personal freedom from government tyranny, etc.
You have not autonomy if you cannot rule over choices regarding your health (body/mind) and your future.
You are not a modern free person if you are subject to the dictates of those that think they KNOW the mind of a probably non-existent "god" especially when "god's" view comports with their authoritarian and/or misogynistic inclinations.
You corrupt our Nation if you cater to a Party (the GOP) that IMMORALLY and CAVALIERLY use the subjugation of women's autonomy of body to ensure a few extra votes their way.
When science makes extracting a viable embryo/fetus easier/safer/cheaper than current abortion procedures AND if society then will TOTALLY OWN said extraction then I'd agree women must use that extracting procedure.
Today's abortion procedures are SAFER statistically than normal carrying to delivery let alone suffering the consequences of a deformed pregnancy late term.
We defile liberty itself when we deny women medical choices or worse insist they take risks they don't have to.
3
Trump's words are meaningless because he believes in nothing but himself, but things that need to be asked of all those people cheering on the specious 'pro-lifers': How many 'hard-to-adopt' children have you taken into your home? What are you doing to combat male responsibility for abortions and unwanted pregnancy, including domestic abuse, incest, bullying, rape, etc? What are you doing about gun control to protect the lives of innocent children and other human beings? What are you doing to help educate people in ways to prevent abortions and unwanted pregnancies? What are you doing to ensure that living children in need are given the care and attention that will allow them a good, productive life? And, of course, what makes you think that women's health and bodies are your business?
9
Haven't we said this often enough yet. An abortion is between a woman and her doctor. No one else. It's her business. Men have no business controlling women's health. Women don't call the shots on men. Hands off.
5
Republicans have been using abortion as a "wedge" issue for decades. What Democrats should be proposing is what Ronald Reagan advocated, "Keep government out of the bedroom." As Gov. Andrew Cuomo noted in these pages, there is no place in national politics for this issue with is a blatant attempt to impose Christian doctrine of everyone in stark violation of the Constitution's "separation of church and state." Abortion is a serious medical decision that should be made in private not legislated in public. All such legislative religious-based restrictions should be removed from the books as unconstitutional.
5
The fact that the president of the United States lied during his State of the Union is not a surprise to me. The fact that is it is not a surprise is a shock.
4
Whenever an issue regarding the lives of people is discussed at the legislative and governmental level, it appears as though the legislators forget who they are talking about. Whether it is late term abortions or separating children from their parents at the borders, for many legislators and government appointees, they lose the fact that we are talking about human beings. Is that how they want to treat people? Is that how they want their family members treated? Remember the discomfort of Michael Dukakis, during a presidential debate, was asked about his feelings if his wife was raped? That type of question should be put to each legislator in discussing third term abortions or any other human issue. I think there would be much less reflexive party replies and more thoughtfulness. Or I guess I am hollerin' down a well, or am so naive that I just don't get "it."
1
The term "culture wars" is misleading. What it's really about is individual freedom and personal agency. When you examine so called " cultural issues "Conservative Republicans despite all their sanctimonious utterances about freedom and the evils of big government, are a contemporary version of the ruling class in the "Handmaids Tale". They attempt impose their sectarian based value system on a secular society.Women have a fundamental right to total autonomy over their bodies. Anything else is misogyny.Individuals have an absolute right to choose their gender or whom they love. If a business serves the public and utilizes public services, financed by tax payer dollars, they have no right to weaponize the Free Exercise clause, and use their bigoted religious beliefs to refuse service to a customer. Culture wars are really freedom wars and this is America, not Gilead.
3
@Don Shipp. "Free exercise" of religion cannot be coerced. It must be strictly voluntary.
President Trump's support of pro life groups and causes has been unwavering. As far as I can remember, he is the first president to ever broach the abortion issue let alone late term abortion during a State of the Union address. This took courage but of course his Republican base strongly supported him on this very important issue. This was also a campaign promise that he made to voters.
Who can ever forget his saying to Hillary Clinton during the last debate that she was all right with abortion up until the ninth month. This is exactly what her Democratic Party is proposing. It has been passed in New York State and others are trying to follow in this path. This is what Ralph Northam proposed but thank goodness it failed to pass thanks to one Republican voting against it.
The Democrats do not want to admit that their goal is late term abortion but this is actually what is happening. They say the baby and mother!s life is at risk but that is hogwash. It is due for the convenience of the mother. Abortion is evil at any stage but is horrendous at nine months of pregnancy. Even seventh months is terrible. At this point, the baby experiences a lot of pain and anguish. I had to laugh when Mr. Northam spoke of making the baby comfortable after birth before ending its life if the mother so desired. What he was really doing was preparing the baby for a slow painful death. No one ever deserves this brutal punishment especially a defenseless helpless baby. Never.
1
There is a glaring inconsistency in much of the "pro-life" (actually pro-birth; after that the child no longer a fetus is a "taker") position. When a person is convicted of murder, anyone who aided the murderer, either before or after the fact, is also guilty of murder. In most states, murder is punished by long prison sentences or death. So, if abortion is murder, why is the doctor who performs it and the woman who requests it (and if he is involved her husband as well) not appropriately punished?
The answer is obvious: since the issue of abortion is not really a moral matter, but a political club with which to beat ones opponents, carrying out theses logically necessary actions (say, execution by firing squad) might very well dissuade a significant number of supporters to defect. It is just one more cynical and utterly amoral ploy to maintain power for the benefit of oligarchs.
Pardon me for saying so, but I don't understand what late term abortion has to do with "the state of the union?" The SOTU has become a side-show rather than a sober accounting of our overall situation: economics, infrastructures, etc. It would be helpful if the address were simply sent in writing (as prescribed in the constitution) to congress and all this other nonsense was left behind.
8
Trump should be careful with this issue---since, it might motivate some journalists to do some digging into Trump's payoff history, which, if I was to hazard a guess might include some payoffs that let's say would not make right the lifers happy.
4
Of course Trump loves a culture war. For that, he doesn't need to have a command of the facts. He doesn't need to articulate or defend a policy. He doesn't need advisors or read briefing documents. All he needs to do is rely on is his "brilliant gut." The late term abortion issue is just the latest in a long line of similar topics where knowledge isn't required.
To provide a slight modification of an old line, Trump's guiding philosophy is "Don't confuse me with the facts, my gut is already made up."
3
It was Pat Buchanan who popularized the phrase Culture War, and he may have even coined it, but let's keep in mind that Pat Buchanan is a proud member of the Sons of the Confederacy, and that when we talk about the Culture War, the battle lines were drawn back in 1861.
4
"The infant, he said, would be delivered and kept comfortable while the family decided how to proceed. He was not advocating killing newborns, which is illegal, and would remain so under the proposed change to Virginia’s law."
while the family decides what? oh, right "how to proceed." THE INFANT (your word choice, cheer that) would be delivered (and that is different from birth how? And if the family "decides" that the continued life of the infant is not to their advantage, whether for mental reasons (the physical health of the mother is off the table once the baby is out, right?) and all the stresses of the moment and conflicts among the family, (what happened to the "woman and her doctor" absolute) are settled and the vote is "no," then life of the delivered, comforted infant is terminated, a sad but intended irony, what is that if not the killing of a newborn?
2
@ecco The choice would not be "kill or keep." It would be "keep alive via medically intrusive technology" or "pull plug." It's not murder when we "do not recusitate" people (mostly older) or "pull plug" for those in coma at any age. If the baby could thrive without medically intrusive tech, no doctor is going to harm it.
This whole debate might be better if we heard from more doctors and women and asked males (esp. male politicians) to listen more, speak less.
2
No one gets to take a life without careful scrutiny. In all civilized society, this is a topic of great debate and consideration. To hide behind a veil of privacy is weak and immoral. Morality demands a debate.
3
Do the anti-abortion crowd even stop to consider women as living, feeling sensate beings? Or, when they talk of them as "vessels," do they imagine something more like a gravy boat or a cream pitcher?
Do they have any idea what it is like to be carrying what would have been a loved and wanted child, only to find that, instead, they are in the middle of a tragedy that can only end in death, no matter what decision they make-- that the only choice they have is how much trauma they must put their own bodies through?
And now, the government would not allow them even that choice. They must risk their health, risk even the chance of other pregnancies, other wanted and loved babies-- and for what? So people they have never met, who know nothing about them and care less, can feel pious on Sunday morning?
11
Day after day words, voiced and written, are transmitted. Enough already! Help is needed, words and deeds, to effectively alter the ongoing processes which enable these lies to be believed by so many ordinary folk.
1
The Donald didn't lie because to lie is to knowingly state an untruth. The critical word above is "knowingly"; The Donald makes it up as he goes along...
But how to get the truth through to the people who are consuming the canards? The facts which you point out circulate in one mental space, and the canards in another.
The kind of language used by Trump is so wild that some people will surely spot it as false without actually knowing the truth. At one time, I'd have counted on a great many Americans to have that much common sense, but it's no longer safe to assume that even sense is something most of us have in common.
6
Trump did one very good thing in the State of the Union speech. He mentioned socialism. Any thinking person will now want to look at socialism for its positives, if Trump is warning us away from it.
People might find that democratic socialism, in which the economic system posits some responsibility to the general well being of society, might be preferable to capitalism, in which the rule is, "Make money any way you want, so long as it's not illegal." And of course the biggest practitioners of capitalism know just which politicians and lawyers will guarantee that whatever they do to make money is legal.
Worry about what's moral? Let's not get sentimental and socialistic.
If it's not viable then simply expose it to normal conditions outside the womb, with no extraordinary measures taken, and let that do it's work.
3
@RobertDavidSouth And let any of these “pro-fetuses” ( because they never care about children once they’re born ) take care of them REGARDLESS of any and all abnormalities.
@Robert David South, that's what most parents do. They hold their child and say goodbye. (Btw, those are the only two options that are legal--extraordinary measures, or allowing the child to die.)
What a great idea!
Any woman should be happy to carry to term and endure the pain of childbirth only to then deal with the death of her child. Come on and think! Most any woman whose pregnancy has progressed past the 24th week, probably not only wants to be a mother, but was looking forward to her child with joy. Then to be told that it is going to die shortly after birth anyway. How cruel are you?
" Late abortion is a complex issue, and a great many Americans find it deeply disturbing. "
Abortion itself is a complex issue. Which is why enshrining a particular legal approach in the Constitution has been such a disaster. It makes nuanced treatment of the issue impossible.
5
@Charlesbalpha pardon my ignorance but is there anything in the constitution that specially addresses abortion?
This piece is the continuation of 50 years of pro-abortion rhetoric that insists on exploiting difficult cases to justify terminating pregnancies of any kind. Birth defects occur at about a 3% rate. If there are 4 million pregnancies a year, then thee will be about 120,000 birth defects. Without getting into how many are profound defects, the fact that there are over 600000 abortions or more in any given year reveals that more than three quarters of abortions terminate normal fetuses. In the category of late term, where the rhetoric exploits tragic cases, most are not, but the pro abortion side does not care to reveal and discuss fully the reality of most other terminations which have nothing to do with fetal anomalies or health endangerment. They cravenly use tragic and difficult cases to distract from the full reality. Goldberg doesn't want truth. She wants a result.
8
@TD, it sounds as though you oppose legal abortion at any stage. Would you prefer to return to the days of back alley abortions prior to Roe? Nobody knows exactly how many abortions were done, but we all know someone who had one. We all know someone who suffered from those abortions.
How do you propose to end illegal abortions?
1
You are guilty of omission as well: Less than 2%of abortions are in the later stages.
1
@TD Absolutely correct. Prepare to be either ignored or pilloried for speaking the truth.
The one thing that the Trump presidency has made clear is that there is indeed a segment of the Catholic population (and other churches as well) that, no matter how much they protest the label, are anti-abortion-only voters.
5
I don't think Trump cares one way or the other about abortion.
The issue of abortion is red meat he will throw to his base to retain their support to fight against impeachment as Mueller's investigation closes in.
I believe most laws about allowing abortion in the third trimester only allow the procedure if the expectant mother's life is in danger.
Trump distorts.
Maybe you prefer lies.
I am an old expletive deleted.
I remember that pre Roe desperate pregnant women would often hemorage to death from coat hanger butcher jobs. Does Trump want to go back to that.
Does he care.
Outlawing abortion will not decrease the total number of abortions.
There will be less safe abortions but more coat hanger butcher jobs.
The sum will be the same.
If Trump wanted to reduce the number of abortions [as opposed to throwing red meat to his base] Trump would support contraceptive information and services and organizations like Planned Parenthood which would reduce unwanted pregnancies and therefore te number of abortions.
But Trump just wants red meat for his base.
I believe that equal percentages of women and men oppose abortion .
20
@david I guarantee trump has paid for more than one abortion in his past. Let's hear what his oh-so-pious Evangelical base has to say about that
Every single article written about abortion needs to explain the actual biology of what it is (as in how many cells are involved), and explain how Roe v Wade limited abortion to the first trimester. Too many people think abortion is available on demand, anywhere, anytime, and do not understand the limits or the actual biology involved in the medical procedure - they think abortion is killing a fully formed baby, and it is, quite emphatically, not. Oh, and mention the failure rate of birth control too.
8
@Barbara Abortion in the third trimester is, quite emphatically, killing a fully formed baby. The New York State law that just passed will make it exceedingly easy to have an abortion in the third trimester. The “mental health” exception is so broad as to render any notion of limitation specious. We have long since gone far past Roe v Wade in both abortion jurisprudence and in medical knowledge of a developing fetus.
One of the reasons Clinton lost PA, according to exit polls, was that she was too pro choice in the third debate. Conservative Catholics in western PA vote. I agree that the mother's life and health should be paramount in the third trimester. But the issue is not just the issue; it is also how the issue is framed. If Republicans can convince others that Democrats are baby killers, that helps them win in 2020. Unfortunately, many trashed Clinton for not being authentic in 2016 but a little too much truth about "partial birth abortion" (which isn't even a medical term) was a little too much for some voters.
3
@Mal Stone, and Trump was lying about so-called partial birth abortion, which became illegal during Bush's administration.
I've never understood why some people think of Trump as authentic. I can't imagine a phonier con man.
1
Goldberg's ability to unflinchingly juxtapose blatantly contradictory statements is honestly quite impressive. She tells us that the New York law would not allow late term abortions, but that the law is necessary so that late term abortions can be performed. She tells us that the Virginia governor was not arguing for infanticide, just that he was arguing for letting them die on their own. She tells us that we shouldn't worry because the Virginia law had no chance of passing and because late term abortions are rare, yet all of these things are good, desirable, and deserving of defense. Instead of arguing for these laws on their supposed merits, Goldberg vainly glosses her incoherent support with the all too believable claim that Trump is just doing what he does best--lying. For her own sake, it's time for Goldberg to cease reflexively defending the indefensible.
10
@Jonathan Stensberg, you're misrepresenting what Goldberg said, but you've done a good job of knocking down your own straw men. Please take the time to read her column.
So you think that allowing a woman battling five kinds of cancer to abort her unviable fetus is indefensible? What's really indefensible is the dishonest conspiracy theories on the right taking the place of honest debate. You might as well be arguing that Pizzagate is real.
When a person is the president of what is arguably the most powerful country on earth, is riding the wave of a solid economy, has the availability of abundant natural resources, and has a population that is diverse, generally well educated, and capable of great innovation, there is absolutely no excuse for trump to behave this way. Women, minorities, people of color, and everyone else deserves better. All citizens of the United States deserve better. The world deserves better.
No. The United States can’t be the world’s police department. The United States can exert influence, but shouldn’t actively displace regimes. The United States shouldn’t exit nuclear pacts that could give the impetus to a new arms race. The United States should shun dictators and strongmen.
None of yesterday’s bluster was new except the plea to stop investigations. Or was that a threat to do some terrible things if the investigators uncover and disclose more bad acts? It sounded a lot like nixon - the candidate I didn’t vote for in the first presidential election I was eligible to participate in. Where is our silent majority? How will they drive the political activity going forward?
The Constitution is the scripture for democracy. I fear that it will end up in ashes.
7
Thanks, but I prefer to get medical advice from my physician and not politicians.
33
'' I’m not looking forward to yet another reprise of the abortion wars. '' - They are ongoing and have never stopped .
Even though Roe vs. Wade became law in 1973, the radical right republicans (and some Democrats) have never let it go. Ever since that moment, it has been an ongoing struggle to actually apply the law.
Each and every state since that has been controlled by republicans have applied their ''laws'' to effectively neuter any woman from applying her Constitutionally guaranteed right.
Each and every year, another little law gets applied that makes it more and more impossible. Women are travelling hundreds and thousands of miles to get reproductive health care NOW - and they are not even anywhere near a third trimester.
Now a blue state is finally trying to codify the law already there, and allow any decision to be made by a woman with direction from her doctor(s). It is and will always be a gut wrenching decision.
It will always be the woman's decision.
26
The legislative policy of the GOP is to protect every fetus until the day it is born, at which point the GOP drops all concern about whether the child is protected in a safe environment, properly educated, fed healthy food, given proper health care, or otherwise supported in any way whatsoever. A more cynical policy would be hard to imagine.
45
Just goes to show that the right of a woman to reproductive freedom is not a proper concern of politicians or the public. Trump and anti-abortion organizations lie, and they do nothing to help prevent unwanted pregnancies or find good homes for unwanted children.
An American woman's personal liberty is guaranteed by our Constitution, and is not subject to the approval of politicians or the will of the electorate.
14
"But if someone’s going to lead an old-fashioned family values charge, it might as well be the living embodiment of louche male chauvinism, a man who refuses to say whether he has ever paid for an abortion himself."
That's the truth. If ever there were a worse messenger for the pro life movement, it's this president.
If Trump refuses to say if he paid for any woman's abortion, it pretty much signals he likely did. He's in close company--Elliot Broidy had to resign as a finance chair for the NRC when it was reported Michael Cohen helped arrange such a payment to the other half if an extramarital affair who had the misfortune to get pregnant.
Does anyone think that Trump would not have bought his way out of an inconvenient pregnancy, as quickly and easily as he paid off women to keep quiet during the election?
Trump's only pro-life when he's itching to keep the evangelicals on his side.
As for the law itself, it's being demagogued and misrepresented for political aims. To imply pregnant women are ripping babies out of their wombs at such a late date is preposterous.
Anyone seeking that solution is probably at her wits end either because of her own ill physical health or her fear of inflicting pain on her ill-formed child.
Clearly, that is precisely the type of decision to be made in private discussions with her doctor--not with the president or any member if the religious right only too eager to tell her what she can or cannot do.
30
There's a logic behind that. The contemporary Western right-wing has a doctrine called "silent revolution", sometimes called "Gramscist Revolution", which is a concept that states a socialist revolution can happen not by a revolution, but by a gradual change in cultural habits of the population (i.e. a gradual degeneration of capitalism; capitalism dying by old age).
In this concept, a cultural war is just the first of the three steps to the "revolution" (the final step being the violent takeover of a moribund capitalist State). The right-wing sees LGBT, Women's rights movement as part of a left-wing conspiracy towards a "silent revolution" because they infer it erodes the values of the Family.
If you read Engels, you know Family is the basic unit of patriarchy, which can be defined by any social system based on private property. Family erodes = socialism. That's the equation of the contemporary right-wing.
5
Ms. Goldberg, you wrote: "....While such a law has no chance in the current Congress, the proposal is a useful reminder that if Roe v. Wade is overturned, abortion law won’t simply be left to the states, because the anti-abortion movement is eager to pass national restrictions." Precisely correct! The right to choose an abortion for the mom-to-be will never be left to the states because the 'right to life' crowd will not ever consider the rights of the pregnant woman to be paramount over that of a not-yet person - the fetus. If the Supreme Court should ever reverse Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton, they will probably go much further than simply reverse and return the case to the status quo ante, instead they're much more likely to overreach and try to make the denial of choice a national standard.
8
They don't call him the Birther Liar for nothing.
Donald has never betrayed his undying loyalty to lying for a living from morning til night.
And the Grand Old Prevaricators swallow it up like manna from heaven.
Nice GOPeople.
Remember in 2020.
25
Well give Trump credit for something...he realized that adopting an anti-choice position would help het the Republican nomination, and he can pull it out whenever he wants to energize his 'base'. Other than that, I believe he couldn't care less about the abortion issue,
25
I just wonder where the tipping point will be where Trump's "base" realizes that these wedge issues are meant to keep them in perpetual servitude? They keep voting their values for people who consider them of no value beyond that of pawn.
27
@stan continople
"I just wonder where the tipping point will be where Trump's "base" realizes that these wedge issues are meant to keep them in perpetual servitude?"
It's unlikely this will ever happen. The pleasures of self-righteousness are too satisfying, at least to some.
1
@stan continople
The same can be said about those in support of some Democrats.. It just depends on what angle your looking at. I really don't care about either side (being Canadian and all that.. there were +/- no matter which party won the presidency.. I am only here because these NYT articles bombard my news feeds.. and to be fair..
I tend to be more supportive of Trump simply because as a political figure the media has not been objective and does not bother to hide it. Their not supposed to be the political wing of any party but it's hard to say where the opposition talking points are coming from since their in lockstep with the DNC.
We have a Christian pastor in our area whose unborn baby was diagnosed with severe heart issues. So severe doctors were unsure if the baby would survive. He and his wife made a choice based on faith and had the baby delivered. It was touch and go. Emergency trips down the highway to the hospital in Philadelphia. He coded at least once. Today, after several operations, he is fine, although I believe he needs one more heart operation.
He recently posted a video talking about their experience and how hard and personal and private the decision is when one is faced with it. While he and his wife chose faith, he did not disparage those who do not, and said that the decision should not be politicized.
When complicated decisions like that are reduced to black and white no one wins. But that, of course, is the Republican Party these days. Everything is a simple sound bite to solve complex problems. Great for shallow thinkers and low information voters.
45
It is nice to hear of a succesful outcome to a difficult decision and near tragedy. The real question: Who paid for this? Can you identify any republicans who would financially support the series of medical events that you describe?
4
Must a woman's most cutting medical conditions, and those of her fetus, be the subject of public comment and government approval? I can think of nothing more invasive.
Notice we don't discuss men's reproductive issues, including ED, PD, impotence, low sperm count, terminal diseases, etc.
Why is that?
301
@Occupy Government Because men don't get pregnant which involves more than just one life. We do discuss dead beat dads to death though and responsibilities of care. Don't we?
Ultimately it's a woman's issue because they carry the unborn to term. Not men.. and if you look at the most passionate and vocal on both sides of the debate their always women. Men have a opinion and a responsibility but it's something I think women will have to sort out. ( I get that most policy makers have been men though and that is changing ..
and will continue to change since Men are entering the work force early and not attending secondary education to the degree women are these days) I think it's 2 to 1 ratio now in secondary education and that's going to make things interesting (policy wise) for the next generation.
16
@Occupy Government
Oh, please. I'm 100% pro-choice, but I'm also 100% in favor of having an intellectually honest debate.
Your argument can be so easily dismissed by the other side. Put yourself in the shoes of a pro-lifer reading your comment, and ask yourself what is the difference between discussing those men's issues? Can you think of one major difference?
They don't involve the termination of a human fetus, which is the main objection of the pro-life movement.
25
@Occupy Government
Simple. Women's bodies are colonized by men, who are largely incapable of understanding women's health issues and women's autonomy. And on the issue of autonomy, no one's keeping guys from their Viagra prescriptions.
Difficult to imagine a man standing for the sort of treatment that a male-dominated society ordinarily doles out to women. And that's that.
20
It is really hard to argue against those who think that "every child is a miracle and a gift from God" even if the genesis was from a rape, an incest,or violence. I GET that the child should not be punished for his/her genesis. But what about the circumstance of the parents? Should a mother be forced to offer custody to that rapist father? Should she be allowed to make the decision at 4 months that no, she will not have a child of abuse an incest? Or is she beholden to everyone else's religious ideas (I cannot call them VALUES in this situation).? According to some religious people, we should respect religion and religious law before reality, they do not care about the long term effects on people's lives, but ideals they can tout to a group as superior. I find it nauseating.
25
If there is one individual who can't handle nuance, it's Donald Trump. Everything is an absolute and a superlative (truth itself is not a priority).
Trump has not been doing himself many favors. He has been rightly blamed for the recent government shutdown, more scandals swirl around him, and even his usual enablers distanced themselves from his recent foreign policy moves.
So what does Trump do? He tries to get support by vilifying someone else - those who support and seek abortion. He is playing a dangerous game and knows full well that the consequences of treating the procedure as murder has led to actual murders. But Trump will sacrifice others, and incite more divisions, to compensate for his own failures.
17
Dana,
I am a pro life woman who also volunteers in the pro life movement. I think your outrage is misplaced. The obscene assault is placed upon the baby. Every abortion results in a dead fetus/baby. There is no reason whatsoever to terminate a baby during a third term abortion. This is a fallacy that only eases the conscience of those in the pro choice/abortion movement.
8
@WPLMMT Your statement: "There is no reason whatsoever to terminate a baby during a third term abortion"...Do you not accept that there are some medical issues that cannot be identified until the third trimester? Do you believe that a fetus that cannot possibly be viable after birth should be carried to full term, regardless of the risks to the woman? As a labor nurse elsewhere in the comments stated, they cannot save all the babies, no matter how much they want to.
14
@WPLMMT
Do you honestly believe there are caravans of women eager to murder their almost full term babies? Do you honestly believe women go through all the nausea, fatigue, soreness, edema, weight gain, etc. of seven months of pregnancy, only to decide they don’t want a baby after all so let’s kill it? How absurd! There are states that allow late term abortions right now. It would be prudent to see how this has worked in those states - the percentage of women who choose them; what circumstances elicit that choice; how the abortion affects the family of the infant. The hysterical predictions that preceded the adoption of assissted suicide laws were completely overblown; and the laws have been used prudently and in the manner in which they were meant to be used. They have not led to a devaluation of life; rather the one instance that I am personally aware of was a celebration of love, family, and the uniqueness of life. Perhaps the right is overreacting to these abortion laws in the same way- especially in its assumption that women are cold-hearted, murderous, evil people who insist on killing healthy, close to full term babies simply on a whim. I don’t believe that. Not for a moment.
4
@WPLMMT, almost every third-term abortion is a pregnancy that was very much wanted. When the pregnancy goes catastrophically wrong--for example, when the fetus is found not to have a brain, meaning that it will die at birth or live for a few minutes, or when the fetus dies in utero, it must be delivered by caesarian section. It's not "ripped" from the womb--it's delivered like a full-term baby, and then the decision whether to take extraordinary measures to keep it alive for a short while is up to the parents. It is illegal in every state, including New York and Virginia, to allow a viable infant to die without medical care.
These inflammatory falsehoods that you seem to believe have caused untold misery because weak-minded individuals decide that they must murder doctors, attendants and patients at medical clinics in order to stop something that never happens. In the seventeenth century European society sincerely believed in witches, whom they regularly burned at the stake. They too were ridding the world of evil, as they saw it. Let's use reason and facts, not emotion and falsehoods, which only lead to mob hysteria. Infanticide is illegal (it's murder in the law books). Third-term abortions are difficult to obtain, and always tragic for the parents.
3
Of course Trump loves a culture war. It's largely what put him into office. It's not just about abortion either. It's a toxic soup of hate filled identify politics where he actively pits his core white base against everyone else. The "war" keeps them motivated, voting in primaries and block voting in the generals.
He fully understands that that block is big enough to keep him in office and the Republicans in Congress docile and servile. Pouring more gasoline on this fire is just what he wants. He needs to keep it burning as brightly as possible.
12
A am pro-choice, but anti-Roe.
I think there are about 9 (maybe 10?) of us?
5
It is hard to hear The Argument. The show where Michelle, Ross Douthat and David Leonhardt do everything possible to avoid this subject. At least it feels that way to me. Though Ross can't help himself not to slip it every now and then. I'm sympathetic to Michelle for not not bringing it up. I don't know how it would be possible for it not to turn really ugly. In fact it should turn ugly.. Ross's position is as cruel and misogynistic and filled with as much punitive sex negative cruelty as almost anyone other than who knows who. Rather than The Argument it feels more like a horrible dinner among family members who don't want to antagonize each other too much. Still one where the one with ugliest values always feels emboldened to talk. David's position, troubled and seemingly sensitive and moral, is not exactly Ross light. But women's sexual and reproductive freedom seems to not even enter his mind as relevant. To Ross they are very relevant.
It is hard to imagine unless the show was recorded earlier that this won't be brought up tomorrow. I can see why these three people might like each other. But if something this basic can't be spoken about than the show means next to nothing.
3
@Robert Roth, I'm confused about what "The Argument" is. What subject are people avoiding?
1
Thank you Ms. Goldberg for shedding some light on Trump's characteristically mendacious and selfishly opportunistic approach on yet another issue about which he lacks any genuine principled position.
But not only is the man lying (again) about this issue, he is not even making any sense:
"...would allow a baby to be ripped from the mother’s womb moments from birth..."
How can a baby be ripped from a womb AFTER a birth? What does he think the word "birth" actually means?
The ignorance and malice of this man is horrifying.
12
@KG, apparently "ripped from the mother's womb" means delivery by caesarian section, since that's the procedure, even if the fetus is already dead. Caesarian section just doesn't sound as inflammatory--it might lead people to question whether they're being told the truth.
Trump, of course, has no problem with separating a child from her parents, a child who has committed no crime, putting that child in jail and denying her medical care until she dies. That's okay because the child is no longer a fetus. She has been born, and Trump can do what he wants to her.
483
@Paul Glusman
That child who died at the border didn't receive medical care for 90 minutes. If anything, it's a reason to stop the insanity at the border.
4
@Paul Glusman--That child had been brought to the US illegally, and therefore was not worthy of our concern or care. Every day children at the border are taken from their parents. There is no "pro-life" organization that seems to care, because in fact they are only "pro-fetus" not pro-life.
12
@Paul Glusman - "...putting that child in jail and denying her medical care until she dies."
You left out the part where he eats them.
Trump gets the few hot button issues that can mobilize his base, and abortion is one of them. If you are going to lie, lie big. Make it all as grizzly as possible. I’m surprised Trump stopped short of saying he personally saw Nancy Pelosi rip a fetus out of a pregnant woman’s body with her claws, because his base would believe him and be howling with fury.
21
Surprise, surprise, surprise !
Donald Trump and the GOP are the elected administration of cruelty. If they can heap misery on a mother about to give birth to a terminally ill infant, who has no chance of survival, and gin up the base at the same time, then it's all good.
15
"... He added, “And then we had the case of the governor of Virginia where he stated he would execute a baby after birth.” …
This is precisely why I did not watch the SOTU.
So individual-1 finally got his dog and pony show. I didn't watch it out of respect for myself. I don't suffer pathological liars and sociopaths. I don't take kindly to anyone who attempts to put one over on me, or attempts to push some emotional button in me. I might read the transcript. But really, what is the point. I already know the state of the union. Immigration is not in the top 5 main issues facing this country today:
Healthcare, climate change, infrastructure, massive student debt, massive government debt, ….
25
@oldBassGuy - I wasn't going to, but decided to listen anyway. After a few minutes though, I was kind of shocked to see the whole thing turn into a sideshow with him as a barker calling on attendees here and there pointing out friends and heroes. I thought some of the members gathered in the house chamber last night were embarrassed witnessing the spectacle. It was "made for TV" because it was absolutely made for TV. Sad.
2
The pro-choice/pro-life issue never ceases to astound me regarding the Christian Right's hypocritical unwavering support for Trump based on one issue: right to life. Their tolerance of Trump's pro-choice recent past, his proud exclamation that he can sexually abuse women, his vile name-calling, his pathological lying, merely because of his faux pro-life position, is just as despicable as Trump himself.
16
@nzierler, in addition I suspect Trump has paid for at least one abortion. He refuses to deny it. When Marla Maples became pregnant with their daughter Tiffany, Trump tried to pressure her into an abortion.
1
The NY and proposed VA law do not stipulate that late term abortions only apply when the fetus has un-survivable abnormalities. It is absolutely never in the interests of a woman's health to pause during delivery to make sure that her unborn child is dead before it exits her body. Never.
As long as all it takes is for a mental health professional to assert that it is damaging to a woman's mental health to deliver a live birth, the law de facto allows a woman to change her mind at the last minute after the unborn child is viable, even healthy.
If it is not the intent of the law to enable a woman to abort a healthy, viable fetus, they need to rewrite the law so that it so stipulates. Otherwise, the Trump description is 100% accurate.
11
@ebmem, the scenario you envision is illegal in every state, including New York and Virginia. No mother can "change her mind" on the delivery table and decide to let her healthy baby die. Every state requires by law that medical personnel give a premature infant medical care if it's born alive, whether that baby is born during a miscarriage or an abortion. The exception would be if the child has no chance of survival, i.e., if it's born without a vital organ, in which case the decision of whether to take extraordinary measures is the parents'.
The New York law was passed because existing state abortion law only allowed third-trimester abortions if the mother's life was in danger. Women were not allowed to abort catastrophically undeveloped fetuses if they posed no risk to the mother's life.
14
@ebmem
You are absolutely correct. The law needs to be changed. Period.
1
@SandraH. And the change to NY law eliminates that requirement
How many abortions has Donald "my Viet Nam was avoiding STDs" Trump paid for or forced on women? Trump was pro-abortion until he was against it for political gain. He is a two-faced liar, leader of the Republican hypocrites. Pro-lifers would let women die to "save" unviable fetuses. To bad we can't shove them back into the disembodied womb they hold so sacred. Here's hoping those women dressed in white at the SOTU are a harbinger of Trump's downfall and the death of the religious right.
29
@wcdevins - is creationism or intelligent design a required subject anywhere in this country? Sorry if I'm naive.
@willw
Yes. Look around at charter & "faith-based" schools.
Thanks for the link, Michelle.
The nation's most notorious deadbeat and liar doesn't pay his contractors; he doesn't pay his lawyers; he doesn't pay his bankers; he lies continually without apparent consequence. Why, then, should he refuse to answer a question about having paid for someone's abortion? Is he afraid to be called a liar by someone he'll savage anyway? Or is he afraid to be called a liar by someone who matters to him? I think we need to ask ourselves this last question.
Such an interesting question, indeed.
7
@George Moody
It might be because of the sheer number of people out there who could contradict any denial.
Ummm are you forgetting the Obama years?
Idently Politics and the culture wars peaking with unisex bathrooms in elemetary schools. This has been credited/blamed in these very pages in helping get Trump elected.
6
@Sara The Obama years? When we had a president Not in debt to Russian Mafia and Oligarchs? A president who didn't lust after his own daughters? A first lady who hadn't launched her hunt for an aging playboy with a nude photo shoot? The good old days.
26
@Sara, I think you share a basic misunderstanding of what the term identity politics means. It doesn't mean inclusivity (i.e., respect for all races, religions, LGBTQ, women and men, etc.) It means the opposite--exclusivity. When Trump demonizes brown immigrants crossing the Mexican border, he's practicing identity politics because he's making clear that he only represents one race.
8
@Sara: You're spouting the falsehood that only Democrats practice identity politics. Republicans do it all the time--look how they've demonized immigrants and refugees, Muslims, Jews, women, blacks, the poor. That's identity politics too, but it is based upon fear, control, and hatred.
1
The lies the religious right spews about abortion are akin to the "Blood Libel" Jews have faced for hundreds of years.
It's the same kind of cruel, vicious deliberate invention designed to fire up low-information citizens.
I find it almost impossible to believe Trump never paid for a woman to have an abortion, because, unless forced by a court, he never pays for ANYTHING if he can pull it off.
10
Michelle, it's not just Trump. It's the GOP in general, speaking as a former Republican who voted for Gore and then left the party. Divide and conquer. It's been their mantra for 30 years. But maybe you are too young to remember their relentless foaming at the mouth like rabid dogs during the Clinton administration. And they haven't stopped since, only getting worse. Trump just ramped it up to the stratosphere turning the Republican Party into that of white supremacy. George Wallace must be grinning from the other side. What a way to run a country, let alone govern—as Rome burns.
13
@Jim: Your illusion to Nero is apt, but I'd go further and compare Trump to Caligula. Just as crazy (maybe crazier), and so corrupt, so debauched. I'm waiting for him to appoint his horse to the Cabinet.
Yesterday the NYTimes reported on the specter of nuns being sexually abused, used and impregnated by "priests and bishops" with some nuns resorting to abortion. Those on the Susan B. Anthony List tweeting need to face the consequences of hypocrisy and lies. Michelle Goldberg articulates the distortions well in this column.
16
Sigh. It really is just no one else's business if a woman chooses to have an abortion. It harms no one else.
You (generic you) can rightly be in favor of laws against murder because it is something that could happen to you, a living, breathing person. There is an actual (if small) danger to you, and so it is appropriate that there be laws against that action, and punishments allotted.
However, you (same generic you) can NOT be rightly in favor of laws against abortion. You are already a living, breathing person. Someone else choosing to have an abortion can have no effect on you whatsoever. You are in no danger. And if you have qualms, hey, you absolutely don't have to have one. No one will force you to act against your conscience or your own best interests.
But wanting to continually add more restrictions to abortion, or make it illegal, that DOES force women to act against their own consciences or their own best interests.
The two sides are NOT equivalent, and we shouldn't pretend they are.
381
@KristenB That isn't even what Roe and Casey hold. Those opinions find that the state, indeed, has a "compelling" interest in protecting an unborn child (or fetus, depending on your perspective) after viability outside the womb, which is approximately the end of the first trimester.
10
@KristenB
I believe that those who want women to forgo abortions should be taking their case to the women of America instead of relying on the government to enforce their beliefs.
That said, your statement "It harms no one else" is an overstatement in the service of convenience.
If our society were able to arrive at agreement on:
a. what constitutes a human being; and
b. when a developing child in the womb arrives at a stage when it's undeniably a human being,
then the only remaining argument would be whether or not killing a human being amounted to murder.
We haven't and might never arrive at such agreement. But your statement assumes far too much unless the entire issue of what constitutes a human being is to be discarded as irrelevant.
Having felt it was my duty to do so if I were to form a reasonable opinion, I've forced myself to look at photos and to read accounts of abortions performed at various stages. It's my feeling that anyone who wants to opine on the subject is obliged to do the same, or their opinion is based on willful ignorance. Those who won't are moral cowards and intellectually derelict.
I've seen far too many photos of fully formed aborted children with unmistakable expressions of agony on their faces to make a cavalier and false statement like "it harms no one else." Unless you're really as ignorant as you pretend to be, you know whom it harms.
Fighting government overreach is a worthy undertaking. Lying about the reality of an issue is not.
18
@James The parents should be the deciders as to whether to keep a disabled/deformed infant alive via artificial means. If the state requires that heroic measures be applied in every case there may be unintended consequences - medical bankruptcies, perhaps a further decline in the birth rate due to the extreme risks.
36
Serial adulterer and bragging sexual predator, Trump, has no business adopting a pose of moral sanctimony. If he really believed in the sanctity of life, he'd be talking about gun control and ending capital punishment.
496
@Linda Trump found the base he needed when he picked a side in the Culture War, a side which has been fighting since they declared war on the United States in 1861.
We may often focus on Trump, but the base that got him elected, and to which he continues to appeal for support, is the same one that appointed Jefferson Davis.
6
@Linda and do something about climate change and the opioid crisis. I'll stop there.
3
"The infant, he said, would be delivered and kept comfortable while the family decided how to proceed."
And then what?
2
@Childe Roland, Gov. Northam was talking about fetuses who were so severely impaired that they are unable to survive outside the womb (i.e, fetuses born without brains or kidneys). He wasn't talking about viable fetuses, which by law must be given medical support.
Often the parents will decide before the procedure whether they want to take extraordinary measures to keep the infant alive for a short time. They consider the pain the infant will experience, the isolation, the expense of maintaining life support, etc.
You ask "then what?" Extraordinary measures, or let the infant die in its mother's arms. Those are the choices.
3
Childe, your question indicates that you have never had a family member on life support and been faced with making a decision about how to proceed.
2
I watched someone learn at six months pregnant that the baby was "incompatible with life." Too late for an abortion, she resigned herself to carrying the baby to term and then watching it die.
Then, in her seventh month, she developed pre-eclampsia. She had developed this in a previous pregnancy as well, and it almost killed her.
Then I watched as she and her husband debated their few choices--risk her life for a baby that would not live, or travel to Canada or 2000 miles in the US to a state that would allow her a legal abortion.
Fortunately, they had the money, the time, and the resources to travel and get an abortion, saving her life, allowing her to continue to parent her two-year-old child and eventually to have two more children.
The thing I think a lot of people miss about many, if not most, of these late-term abortions is that there is no good choice. These women are facing a decision that involves making the choice that does the least harm. There is no outcome where a happy, healthy, bouncing baby will be born. Only the attempt to lessen the pain, lessen the damage. We should let women be able to make these tough choices.
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@Mary
This story makes no sense. Very hard to believe she only learned at six months that fetus had a fatal deformity and not much earlier with standard ultrasound. Furthermore, the treatment for severe pre-eclampsia at 7 months is emergent c-section or induced labor (in this case the baby would have been delivered stillborn). Abortion would not be indicated or offered.
8
@XLER. There are some abnormalities in the fetus that cannot be detected until the third trimester. Modern medicine still can't detect all things all the time.
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@Mary
My uncle was the chief surgeon at a hospital here in Canada for a few decades and had to go to Germany for a procedure (took months) that was not allowed here. Different regulations is all on what's approved/not approved.
Your friend's experience appears to be an extreme and most even on the pro life side grudgingly agree that when the mother is at risk there is reasonable cause for a late term abortion. That is not always the case though and others out there believe this is just moving the goal posts in what is acceptable and what is not.
6
Ms. Goldberg, let me help you with the headline of your well written article: 'Trump lied.' There, no other qualifiers needed.
143
@Santa, well, and no need to state that "Trump lied".
That's just what he does.
4
@Santa He did not lie. Perhaps you and Ms Goldberg should watch the ENTIRE video of the Virginia governors description. Those of us with an actual medical background fully comprehend the meaning.
I was horrified by the extent to which the president misrepresented the issue of late term abortion. The bill under consideration in Virginia that Gov Northam spoke of would not make third trimester abortion legal or illegal, it would simply reduce the number of doctors that needed to approve a legal procedure from 3 to 1 and clarify the method of assessing harm to the health of the mother. Northam was trying to defend Delegate Kathy Tran and as well as the integrity of doctors who are sworn to uphold the Hippocratic oath.
It was awful to see Trump take something positive and turn it into the complete opposite.
31
@Aaron G Yes, but that is part of his m.o.. Every day is Opposites Day.
1
@Aaron G
Three or one or a hundred physicians should not have the right to decide that a healthy, viable late term fetus can be killed.
One of the reasons I am more sympathetic to pro-choice folks is because their arguments always seems to understand nuance. They are not moral absolutists. Most say things like "we should limit the number of unwanted pregnancies so woman are not faced with the choice to abort. Abortion is undesireable. Late in pregnancy, there are often circumstances that complicate the question." Pro-choice advocates are thoughtful, and reasonable. On the hand, I've never heard from a anti-abortion person who doesn't have this absolute sense of righteous morality, and zero sense of thoughtfulness or nuance.
57
@Syliva - Good point. They are also the ones who support sex education and affordable medical care and contraception, measures that prevent unwanted pregnancies.
23
@Syliva Whenever I deem myself unwise enough to come to a clear understanding of a complex moral issue, which is more often than not, I simply look at advocates of all sides of the issue. Whose judgment do I respect? When it comes to abortion, the comparison is stark.
9
@Syliva Even more bizarre are conversations I've had with people who said, "I'm against abortion." After talking to them for a few minutes about various scenarios, they said, "I mean, I'm not saying it should be illegal. I'm just against it."
Many people who claim to be pro-life don't even seem to understand what the "pro-choice" position is. If someone thinks abortion shouldn't be illegal because all sorts of scenarios that are highly personal to different women, then that person is supporting the pro-choice position, whether they would ever personally get one or not. It's about legality, not enthusiasm for the procedure.
13
Donald sees political support as audience share. As long as his show gets the most viewers in the time slot, the value of his property increases. He can raise ad rates.
If that sounds too simplistic, I give you Donald Trump.
12
Those with conservative views often have trouble dealing with complexity and do not do well with issues like abortion which is extremely personal. as a result they are prone to make blanket statements and avoid nuance.
Trump believes what will sway his base. He just does not care about nuance or thinking for that matter beyond his own interests. He has no moral conscience at all and will say anything that will come into his head, the more polarizing and liable to promote conflict the better. In this sense he seems to be barely a human being.
29
@just Robert
There are very few individuals who agree that elective abortion on demand of late term, healthy viable fetuses should be legal.
Pro abortion advocates take the position that a fetus is its mother's property until it escapes her uterus.
If it was the intention of NY and VA Democrats to make it legal to abort a late term fetus with debilitating physical problems, they would have written such a law. Instead, they wrote a law that appeals only to the most extreme position.
You are taking the position that no one would ever exercise her "right" to abort a healthy viable late term fetus, and that Trump and Trump supporters are too ignorant to comprehend to the nuances of the law.
Those with progressive leanings function purely from emotion. They jump right on the leftist bandwagon without thought, even when they do not agree with a law that specifically allows the abortion of a healthy, viable fetus.
If something is never going to happen, why did NY and VA leftists see the need to make it legal? That is the nuance that is escaping you. People don't even have to be anti-abortion religious zealots to be horrified by a law that makes the late term abortion of a healthy and viable fetus legal.
Believers think God wants them to make everybody acknowledge the laws that they think God has laid down. God also wants obedience, but what is important is the acknowledgement of the principle as a moral and legal fact. According to this way of thinking, the law should embody the moral principle that, say, drinking or sexual attraction outside of marriage or to the same sex is wrong, and whether the law actually reduces drinking or extramarital sex is irrelevant and (in the case of sex) best left unexplored.
This is in effect an establishment of religion, which God also wants. He would prefer a direct establishment, but will take an indirect and sneaky one that does not announce itself as such.
Anything that leads to this acknowledgement or its embodiment in laws is acceptable to God, and anything that prevents it is evil. So contraception and sex education as ways to reduce the number of abortions are evil, while making abortion illegal is good even if the campaign to do this is based on lies, misrepresentations, and false advertising. For God and those who serve him, the end justifies the means. Those who do not serve him are monsters, serving evil, and both their existence and their deeds are not justified.
For Trump, too, the end justifies the means, so an alliance with our Christian Taliban makes sense. They serve God and Trump serves Trump. God uses Trump and Trump uses God.
14
@sdavidc9
You do not have to believe in God to think that it is improper to allow a healthy viable third trimester fetus to be killed because mom has changed her mind.
If that was not the intent of the NY and VA laws, they should have written that into the legislation.
You have talked yourself into a religious fervor over something that is not even true.
This is a losing battle on the national stage especially since we’ve already lost the Supreme Court. It’s clear Trump is trying this out as his new “wall”. It’s nascent - he may move on - but if not I hope national Democratic politicians don’t feel compelled to respond to the bluster as we move into 2020. I don’t support ANY legislation/regulation specific to abortion, but this moment is just not on the pro-choice side.
4
@Sarah
The pro-choice side has already won, and Roe v. Wade is not going to be overturned. The NY and VA laws are designed to advance pro-abortion zealotry. It allows the late term abortion of a healthy viable fetus, which Roe v. Wade specifically regulates, requiring the states to balance the rights of a viable fetus with the rights of the mother.
The editorialist asserts that the laws would only be exercised when the fetus was fatally defective. If that were the intent of the law, that is what it would have stipulated.
If the President "lied" and these claims are untrue, Sen Sasse's Post Abortion Survivor Protection Act is at worse redundant and does no harm. In fact, it affirms the most fundamental social responsibility: protecting life which, under the XIV Amendment, undoubtedly accrues to a person "born" in the United States. So explain why Sen Murray objected to its consideration and why Andrew Cuomo lies about the broadness of his "health exception" criteria. The truth is that abortionists have no objection to any abortion at and through birth, and even the Guttmacher Institute documented in 2013 that second and third trimester abortions are largely the result of socio-economic decisions and not/not medical "necessities."
9
@JOHN I never respond to a specific reader, but it is absolutely untrue to claim that abortionists have no objection to any abortion. As someone who has worked in the field of OB/GYN for over 20 years, there are many instances where labor must be induced to save both mom and baby-these babies are treated as and cared for as the premies they are. To suggest that late abortions are rampant is a fallacy.
44
@JOHN
Such a lie. And yes, acts like those do harm - they impose additional restrictions and attempt to create criminal investigations out of abortions. And no, there is no desire to create a right to abortion at birth.
Late term abortions are strictly regulated and are due to health emergencies and unforseen complications, they are tragedies that anti-abortion people see as a way to push their religious views on all of us.
2
@JOHN, there isn't a state in the union that doesn't require full medical care for preemies. Sasse's bill implies that infanticide is legal. Sen. Murray objected to its consideration for the same reason that a senator would object to a bill prohibiting Sharia law--it might be "harmless" in your view since Sharia law is unconstitutional, but it isn't harmless because it misleads millions of Americans into believing that Sharia law (or infanticide) is a real threat.
We all need to be aware of the facts so we're not easily misled by dishonest politicians. Ben Sasse is a Harvard graduate who knows that infanticide is illegal. He's hoping you don't.
1
While the opening line is that "the president lied about abortion in the State of the Union" the actual piece goes on to state that the new proposals about abortion place no limits at all on when an abortion is allowed. And the writer goes on to say that there can be no greater support for something than the fact that Trump is against it. So why write that Trump lied.
In addition it is not just Trump who does not like the idea of abortion after 24 weeks. According to the NY penal code homicide is the taking of a human life, including a fetus after 24 weeks. It is only as part of the new proposed abortion law that the the definition of homicide will be changed.
So this new abortion law is not about expanding certain rights. Its about redefining what the status of a fetus is after 24 weeks. Where it was once outright murder to kill it under the law, it will now be considered to be a mother's right to take the life of that fetus because it will now be called abortion, rather than homicide.
Therefore this new law is not about expanding abortion rights. It is about allowing an act that for over 40 years was considered to be outright murder, and legalizing it by renaming it and calling it abortion.
8
@Michael Stavsen
I am curious if by your standards it would also be homicide to force the pregnant woman to carry to term if it meant she was going to die.This is not hypothetical; a woman denied a late term abortion in Ireland died this way a few years ago. These late term abortions are generally medically fraught and emotionally devastating for everyone involved. Do you really think such decisions should be made by ideologically driven legislators rather than medical professionals on the scene who understand the facts?
The conservative position in this matter puts lives at risk. It is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
17
@Michael Stavsen
What if the mother has to have an abortion to save her life? Is that still murder? What if someone whips out their (legal) gun and in defending their family kills an intruder? I guess that would be murder, too and the person should serve time. Life sentence for murder I'd guess. Works for me.
2
@Michael Stavsen, the new law does not change the New York penal code on the definition of homicide. It is still homicide to fail to provide medical support to a viable infant. It is absolutely against the law for a mother to kill a viable baby.
Third term abortions use caesarian sections or induced birth. If the baby is born alive, hospital staff will rush it to the preemie ward, where it will be given the same care as any baby. That's the law in every state.
What the New York law changes is the circumstances under which a woman can induce labor early or have a section. Prior law prohibited these procedures if a woman discovered that her fetus had a fatal abnormality that was incompatible with life. If an infant is unable to survive long outside the womb, it's up to the parents to decide if they want to keep it alive using extraordinary measures. Many parents choose to hold their baby and say good-bye. They name their child and receive its photo and footprints. It's a very sad occasion impossible for most people to imagine.
All of these decisions are tragic and very personal. I'm sorry to see politicians demagoguing these tragedies.
6
The problem I see is (according to statistics) the majority of late term abortions are not done because of the unborn child's health or the Mothers. So really this just opens a door of acceptability which most find somewhat concerning.
There is no way to slip up like that.. defend it all you want but it was pretty clear what the Governor meant and what other's are actually proposing.
I am pro choice within reason but this goes monstrously to far.. and should never have even been introduced.
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@Roland
What statistics are you referring to? Comments from people who know about such things lead me to doubt you. Please provide specifics. Thanks.
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@Roland Just a reminder:
77% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
30
@Sarah That may be true Sarah but it's always best to look at both sides of a issue especially in regards to something like this where over 50% of the world has not legalized abortion. It's a pretty big issue I think.
I was a very young living in Winnipeg when the first abortions were legalized here with the opening of clinics by Dr.Henry Morgentaler It was scary on all sides of the debate back then and life threatening for many involved. Today? In North America? Not so much. The Pro Life crowd lost but not totally.. restrictions exist and I think with good reason as the majority of people want them in place.
I find even writing the words “ripping babies from their mothers’ wombs” to be so distressing and sickening that it is almost impossible to credit that the American President would be saying them during the “State of the Union” speech and accusing Democratic legislators ( and those of us who are pro-choice by extension) of cheering for late term abortion.
Such despicable rhetoric, coupled with the constant fearmongering about the peril of criminals at our southern borders, fills me with despair. In fact the way Trump drags this country down, maybe his supporters could replace the MAGA slogan on their caps with something that really reflects how Trump feels about this country - “American Carnage.”
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@Susan
Quite right. It has nothing to do with the state of the union.
26
@Susan - when I heard this I thought he was talking about a young mother who was arrested in a Brooklyn food assistance center after having her 1-yr old child ripped from her arms by security and NYPD officers on Dec 7, 2018.
8
The only way an American Oligarchy can win is by infiltrating our democracy via regions of uneducated ignorance. You don't see Mitch McConnells popping up in places where people are historically and politically literate. No, this happens in places where simplistic moral battles can be generated, marketed, and shamelessly used to prod the mindless angry masses to the voting booth. Meanwhile tax cuts for billionaires, loosened environmental regulation, global environmental calamity, decreased life expectancy, prolonged suffering of the same poor masses. How's that for a pro-life agenda?
71
Could it be that Trump is just preparing to switch from "The Wall" to abortion for the 2020 election cycle. If he can no longer divide and conquer with "The Wall" he will need another issue to beat the American public with and keep his base happy. Not quite sure what the abortion 'chant' would be at his rallies but the issue gives him some new red meat.
37
@Elizabeth
Oooooo! I think you've nailed it.
@Elizabeth - this is interesting... Do you think he still has viability? But your notion he could switch tactics is, I think, certainly valid. I just think he knows himself where he's headed. He's not stupid. But this could get really dark and sad or really ugly, it depends on Mueller, I guess. But he knows he's on a downward slope and there's no off-ramp or hill in sight.
The specific topic of this op-ed is Trump's latching onto the religious right's campaign against state laws allowing late-term abortion under very limited circumstances. These groups portray such third trimester abortion as a frivolous decision to dispose of an unwanted child. In reality, most of these rare abortions are performed on women who very much wanted the child but came to understand that the baby would be born dead or die soon after birth from fatal defects. The only way to fight against this fraudulent attack is for women who have made this painful decision to publicize the truth. They deserve to be comforted not vilified.
49
@Alan Mass
The VA law allows late term abortion of a healthy fetus if one doctor approves it. The narrative is that it will only be used in unusual circumstances, but that is not what the NY or VA laws state.
Eighty percent of the population objects to the late term abortion of a healthy fetus unless the mother's life or health are endangered. The 80% do not consider a mother being distressed that she is seven or eight month pregnant to be a threat to her mental health sufficient to justify killing her baby.
The finding that the NY and VA laws are an offense to humanity is not a position of the religious right, it is a position taken by the overwhelming majority in the country and the world.
The position is illegal in all of the industrialized democracies..
In the United States there are roughly 2,000 - 3,000 abortions performed daily. There are roughly 650,000 - 900,000 abortions performed annually in the United States. By far, the most common reasons for performing abortions revolve around the mother feeling 'having a baby would dramatically change my life' and/or 'I cannot afford a baby now.' (Guttmacher Institute, Wikipedia entry). Ms. Goldberg does not identify any such statistics, or the scope of the abortion industry. She does not talk about the babies who are aborted; she is careful to avoid or disguise the language which would describe the lives of infants which are being terminated. She does not talk about who these children might become, or what they might do or want. She does not talk about when a child is viable outside the womb. She does not mention the routine abortions on Downs syndrome children. She never humanizes these children, never talks about the rights that they have now or might enjoy in the future. Although they are human beings who have human lives - I was a fetus once, and so was she - that essential fact is evaded in her op-ed. Abortion (all of it, not just late term abortions) is ghastly, tragic and except in unusual circumstances, without any reasonable moral basis. Using bad adjectives for Donald Trump, for Christians, or for pro-life activists cannot change the facts of what abortion is, and who is the one unavoidable victim of it: the child in the womb.
15
@Tom Wolpert
Do you have any idea what it would cost a woman-- financially and emotionally-- to have a late-term abortion? Doctors absolutely do not perform the procedure unless there is a serious medical concern. Insurance will not cover it for someone who has in the 30th week of conception decided that it doesn't fit their lifestyle.
Maybe we should be vilifying men for having vasectomies, and see how *they* like having their medical care politicized.
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@Tom Wolpert Unless a family is wealthy it is often financially ruined by having a special needs child, who will require 24/7 care for the rest of its life. No one should be forced to do this.
36
@Cal
Not to mention that in many cases the father leaves and the family itself is shattered, leaving the mother to care for an intensive needs child, to the detriment of any other existing children
and the preclusion of her having any subsequent ones.
25
Late term abortions, as grotesque as they may be, may very well be medically necessary, in certain circumstances as described. When such an abortion is deemed necessary, it should be looked at as an end-of-life issue, not dissimilar to family issuance of DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) orders of terminal patients. It is not a moment of celebration, which were the optics when the law was signed in NY.
Use of such a procedure should come with limitations and not be used purely as birth control. The arguments against the right's "over-reaction" to the issue and Trump's hyperbolic descriptions (which was intended to fuel the right's revulsion) are that late term abortions are only for non-viable fetuses, unlikely to survive or because the woman's health is at risk. Well, if that is really the case, why doesn't the law actually say that. In both NY and Virginia, the laws have been streamlined to make it easier to get such abortions, not limiting them to the left's arguments.
Of note is the now famous interchange, since walked back a bit, by Virginia State Delegate Kathy Tran that admitted that her proposed changes to Virginia's abortion laws would, in fact, allow a full-term (40-week) child to be aborted while the mother was actually in labor. It's this sort of extremist pro-abortion views that result in the right-wing rhetoric and vilification of the abortion argument.
Maybe right the laws to actually align with what the left says they really mean?
6
@Hillary
She did not "admit" anything; she was confused by the weird question and gave an incorrect answer. The law does not authorize any such "abortion"; there is no such thing, medically, since it would be, medically and legally, a delivery. At least, that is what a couple of recent articles in the Times, that discussed details, have said about the law.
14
Why can't we adopt the approach found in most European countries? That is, abortion is legal on demand in the first trimester (i.e., 12 weeks). After that, it is permitted only on verified evidence of risk to the mother's health (mental or physical) or fetal defects. It seems the overwhelming majority of Americans would agree with that approach, leaving the fringes on both sides to argue with one another. I have no doubt someone will respond that abortion after 24 weeks is extremely rare, etc. If that is true (and I don't doubt its veracity), then I don't understand the reluctance to have an "on demand" 12-week limit but allow those later abortions with medical confirmation of the risk to the mother's life.
9
@James 'Risk of dying' isn't always clear. Women in Ireland died - in the hospital - because their doctors waited too long. One died of a septic miscarriage and the other that I am aware of died of cancer.
Many pregnancies go wrong. I think Americans need to be educated about 1) horrific fetal defects that cannot be detected only after 20 weeks and 2) the numerous serious complications that can risk a pregnant woman's health or life.
46
@James: What you're describing is the Roe decision. First trimester meant no restrictions, second and third trimesters meant the states could impose restrictions. That to me always seemed reasonable because of the risks as the pregnancy progressed. But slowly states and the courts have chipped away at Roe, imposing waiting periods, vaginal probes, forcing women to look at sonograms, restrictions on clinics, on doctors, attempts to criminalize women who seek abortions and doctors who perform them. I've yet to see statistics or read journal articles about women opting for late term abortions who did so because they woke up one day and decided they no longer wanted to be pregnant. That is the uncritically thinking, pro-lifer's fantasy because it will guarantee outrage and result in all abortions being banned, with no exceptions for the health or life of the woman. This is what they want.
In an ideal world, every pregnancy would be wanted, and every wanted pregnancy would progress perfectly, with the woman healthy and the fetus developing no problems. But we don't live in a perfect world. The fetus develops an anomaly that makes it incompatible with life, and this isn't discovered until the third trimester. The woman develops a health problem and continuing the pregnancy will harm her or even kill her. It is for those instances that we must make late term abortions available for the woman who chooses it.
5
Thank you for this, Ms. Goldberg. It is an extremely emotional and difficult issue that requires analysis and understanding- things that Trump and his lemmings don't know anything about. Keep putting the truth out there.
42
@Bruce He's been around for 72 odd years or there abouts.. likely has as much understanding as anyone else out there and on top of that advocacy groups / think tanks will be appealing to him more so then others and trying to educate and inform him more than your average person because why?
He's the President of the United States. Likely one of only a handful of the most informed individuals out there. What he does with that knowledge.. who's to say. He's Trump after all but to suggest he wouldn't be in the know is a little shortsighted.
1
@Roland, are you serious? You think that Donald Trump is one of the most informed individuals out there? Have you been listening to him? He doesn't listen to experts, and he doesn't learn, so he likely neither knows nor cares about this issue. We know that he once tried to pressure Marla Maples into an abortion, so he knows from the perspective of a would-be playboy.
I didn't realize that there were that many Trump supporters in Canada. Please take him off our hands.
3
This a dog whistle to the morally indignant right wing so called Christians, who are intransigent and believe they and only they are the keepers of right and wrong.
The evangelical community led by people like Franklin Graham who tries to evade Dishonest Donald's violations of the Christian creed by excusing them as mistakes.
;They refuse to recognize abortion as a medically necessary procedure even in the most extreme circumstances, considering a zygote as a viable human for instance is a rejection of any scientific evidence, science to them is the equivalent of sorcery, in fact many of them are flat earthers, and deny evolutionary theory, there is no rational way to deal with them. Any one who admires Don the Dishonest has to be dishonest themselves, self delusional, and as with these fundamentalist preachers, enriching themselves at the cost of the followers who do not understand how they are being duped. As it is, DJT is an expert at duping people, it is hard to have any sympathy for them under any circumstances. You get what you ask for in their case, in his case you get suckered.
58
America may not want Roe v. Wade overturned, but it largely favors reasonable restrictions and conditions on abortions. None in the first trimester, more in the second, and third trimester abortions strictly scrutinized before being permitted. The New York law says what it says, and both Delegate Tran and governor Northam said what they said in Virginia. That a majority of America is recoiling from all three does not mean that first trimester pregnancy termination is in danger. It does mean that a majority of the country somehow still has a moral conscience.
5
@Observer of the Zeitgeist
It means a large number of "news sources" don't explain the truth about the legislation.
6
@Thomas Zaslavsky Correct. And neither does Michelle Goldberg, who has avoided mentioning this point. No one who reads her columns would conclude that the omission was unintentional.
@Observer of the Zeitgeist, I don't catch your meaning when you say "it says what it says" and "they said what they said." Nothing either law says and nothing anyone said means unrestricted access to abortion. Nothing changes about when an abortion can be performed in either state. Both laws retain reasonable restrictions on late term abortions.
Are you suggesting there is unrestricted access to abortion at any time? Did you hear this on Fox News?
2
I remember the day I was born. I was two years old and running around, playing with toys, when my consciousness fully descended into my body and I became aware of myself as this particular body. Up until that point, I was only partially associated with my body. I visited enough to learn to walk and talk and eat and such, but I didn't fully "move in" until I was two years old.
Prior to that moment I had a dreamlike association with my body and the physical world. If I had died during that period, I wouldn't have noticed in the slightest. My parents would have been devastated if I had died because I was wanted, but I wouldn't have noticed.
I am not convinced that I was associated with this body at all while it was gestating in the womb. If there was any connection, it was by the thinnest thread of probability. If this body had aborted either spontaneously through miscarriage or through a medical procedure, I would have simply moved on to a new probable future.
The fuss about abortion is based on a fundamentally flawed understanding of existence, birth, and death. Anti abortion arguments presume existence to be based on matter and cells and corpuscles and DNA. This is an absurd proposition, especially for people who consider themselves to be religious.
What do they think "born again" means? It means being born into the spiritual position you existed in prior to physical birth. That you exist in right now, prior to your association with the body, mind, and physical senses.
20
It's not only a question of suffering on the part of the child. And if you're dead you don't know that you're dead...duh...how is that an argument?
Where is the respect for life? Terminating a life that is set in motion, whose parameters are already fixed in many ways, is a line that should not be crossed that easily. The question is not only about what it does to the child, but what it does to us. And I'm not talking about emotional distress but our humanity.
@IG, I might take your argument more seriously if anti-choice advocates were not also opposed to any gun regulation and if most of them didn't adopt a beggar-thy-neighbor libertarianism. Consistency is important whenever preaching morality.
Abortion has always weighed the interests of the mother against the interests of the fetus. I certainly would not feel good about my humanity if we returned to the days of bloody back alley abortions. Would you?
1
Abortion is a painful issue for men, too, and living through that process can haunt us for a long time. The same is true for women, except far more so. They don't make that call lightly.
The notion that politicians and preachers are the ones to tell a woman what to do with a disabled or unwanted child is the height of government cruelty. Strangely, it's always the conservatives who claim to be for "limited government", while becoming obsessed with maintaining its power to dictate the outcomes of pregnancies.
We've seen the psychopathic endgame, and remember the bombings and murders of abortion clinics and doctors. It's no coincidence that these same Christians are the ones who support invasions and bombing campaigns against Muslim countries.
America needs to grow up, starting with better education, since fundamentalist Christians are good at muscling their way onto school boards. The outcome is a rapid decline of critical thinking, seen in our Big Box preacher parishioners, who are happy to have an airhead in charge of the Department of Education. We'd better teach our children how to think critically, and fast, before the planet burns up. Hint: It won't be from "hell".
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@Mike Roddy I always look forward to your pithy comments. In this case, I would add that an unwanted child is likely to be resented his/her entire life. In the best of circumstances, the child will intuit this from a young age, but not necessarily understand why. In the worst of circumstances, some parents reach their breaking point and do the unthinkable, such as the woman who drove herself and her kids into a lake, and the man who shot his pregnant wife and their 2 young children.
5
@Cynthia
I've known of unwanted children too, and it does end up being painful for all concerned. You also made a good point in recognizing the quality of young children's intuition. Thanks for appreciating my blurbs, you gave me a lift today.
4
@Mike Roddy: Thank you for your thoughtful, nuanced comment. You are the rare man who can understand that men, too, can be hurt by abortion (especially if this was a much wanted baby) and yet still understand that this has to be the woman's decision. It is her health, her life, that is at risk, and, as you wrote, very few are willing to discuss the problems that arise in a family with a disabled child.
3
I think these proposed laws affecting fetuses, woman, their families, and their caregivers fall under the category of "Humane Compassionate Care". The angel is in the details.
It's pretty despicable to reframe it as murder. It's a lying shame. It's the worst kind of swampy politics. It's malignant political gaslighting. No one is killing babies.
It should be articulated more clearly by practicing doctors, caregivers and parents. Not so much, politicians. I was profoundly affected a few years ago by a book called "Being Mortal" by Atul Gawande.
“Our ultimate goal, after all, is not a good death but a good life to the very end.”
99
@Anne. I find words like humane and compassionate have no meaning to the religious extremists who want to impose their religion on all.
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@Anne
It is a mystery to me why the AMA and other national physician's associations are not more politically proactive about protecting their practitioners (my daughter among them) from the ramifications of these draconian proposals. One of the toughest things OB-GYNS have to (rarely) do is terminate 3rd trimester pregnancies (the other, according to my daughter, is to care for pregnant women injured in serious vehicle accidents). I would really like to see some action taken by physician advocates to protect the privacy and autonomy of not just the women involved, but also their doctors and other caregivers.
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@Doug K: "Compassionate conservative" is an oxymoron. I don't see any compassion in forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy if the fetus will die upon birth or shortly after birth. I think it should be up to her. If she wants to continue the pregnancy, then that is her right and I support her decision. If she wants to have an abortion then I support her decision.
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Actually, he told the truth, which is precisely why the left is so nervous about it.
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@Mike Livingston Sorry Mike but I think Donald Trump does not tell the truth. I am not sure he knows what the truth is. I think it would be interesting to find out all of the Trump stories that have been hidden in the safe of David Pecker's National Enquirer Newspaper stories.
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@Mike Livingston
Exactly. This is the major flaw of the DNC. Much like the GOP touting NRA slogans after mass shootings.
If the GOP wants to win in 2020, all they need to do is replay weekly the clip of the NY legislature jumping up and down after signing the abortion law.
As a pro-life democrat, and the hundreds of others I personally know who are like-minded, the DNC must stop with its extremism on abortion or will see a repeat of 2016 in Pa, OH, Mi, and Wi again.
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@Ellen
But here's the thing. DJT tells 50 lies, and one truth. And that one truth then is seen as evidence for the 50 lies to all of his followers. This abortion debate is a perfect example. He did accurately describe, albeit in very disturbing language, the law passed in NY, and being debated in Va. If we as liberal's aren't willing to see this, then we're doomed.
We need to be on the correct side of history, on all debates. Choosing to be right 95% of the time, and then also being pro-abortion, does not help our cause one bit.
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Trump and much of the Republican and religious elite care about the abortion issue only to the extent that it is useful as a manipulative device to get votes and maintain power. It is unfortunate that the American electorate is filled with Trump's "undereducated", who are perfect subjects for this type of mind control.
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It is important to point out that nomenclature matters in this obscene assault on women faced with the wrenching decision of ending a pregnancy in third term. There is no abortion in the third trimester. A woman does not wake up and decide she does not want to become a mom in the 7th month. Pregnancies that terminated late in the term are due to something going tragically wrong. It is obscene the way the President and his so called base trivialize a family's tragedy by acting as if it's just a spontaneous decision a heartless careless woman makes to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy. As a woman's rights advocate - we need to be really careful about language so as not to buy into this bogus terminology the president and his base use.
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@Dana
Of course it's obscene, but a late abortion is technically an "induced abortion". This is a medical term.
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@Dana
"Pregnancies that terminated late in the term are due to something going tragically wrong." You have some data to back that up? Some are. Do you know how many? I am guessing you have been putting stock in rhetoric of a cause, not actual, documented experience.
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@Dana
I think it is obscene the way pro-abortion politicians and their base use tragedy to provide cover for much more morally dubious situations and circumstances under which the majority of abortions take place, including late term. Abortion proponents either hide or refuse to even look to see the data on how many abortions are actually based on fetal anomalies or health endangerment. They should take personal responsibility and look at it all. A 9th grader with Google and no agenda could find out this information. But they will never get the truth from this columnist and her allies, and clearly, after 50 years, the progpagandists for abortion.
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Yes the complicated reality with all its details are exactly what should be discussed when we talk about late term "abortions". These are very personal decisions that should not be forced into rigid rules made by people who refuse to let go of their ignorance.
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@Ivan Yes, and part of that ignorance is to love the bluntness of the law.
The "pro-life" movement once again demonstrates their wanton and callous disregard for the truth. They will do anything and say anything in order to ensure that their religious beliefs are imposed on every American.
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@pmbrig -- beginning with their love of the Death Penalty -- for real human beings.
However, when Corporations kill/murder people, their support for the Death Penalty, for those Corporate "persons," quickly changes its tune, and they're suddenly "pro-Life."
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@pmbrig
I find that more the tool of the pro-abortion camp. Their lies about the majority of late term abortions is a great example.
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If FOX can lie, with impunity, why shouldn't 'our' Prez have the same immunity? As long as they're getting whatever they want, Republicans won't hold him accountable to ANY standards.
SAD, for America.
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Michelle, I don't know how you decide how to focus on the huge canvas of mendacity the president presents in his speeches. And this one was no better than a campaign rally.
Some how you do and this column is a jewel of an example: go straight for a core truth worth holding up for public recognition and show how it is threatened by Trump's style of rank propaganda masquerading as moral grievance.
Thank you.
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The "pro-life" movement is not about being pro-life. If it were, right wing Christians would be equally concerned about the death penalty (the ultimate "government intrusion"), hundreds of thousands of deaths in optional wars, like Iraq II, fought for reasons of policy, not out of necessity.
So why are abortions the single most defining issue for many Christians? If abortions were outlawed then women might be forced back into more traditional roles in society. Birth control and the ability to end a pregnancy liberated women from the most binding aspects of being female, having to spend 18 or more years raising a child whether that child was wanted or not.
Pro-life/pro-choice is really a cultural war fought between those who believe women should not have a choice about how their lives are led. Ultimately, some Christians believe that god created women to bear children and they should not have the ability to avoid it.
The anti-abortion campaign also offers a great organizing tool for political action generally. It is one that is never likely to be resolved, a political/social/cultural issue for all seasons, an opportunity for unending battle. It is difficult to think of another issue with such long lasting, perhaps eternal, focus.
Exaggerating the "horrors" of abortion is a logical step to make those who favor choice seem like representatives of the devil. Thus, all of our politics have been cast into being a primal battle over ultimate right or wrong, over basic morality.
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@Doug Terry
Brilliant.
Thanks!
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@Doug Terry
Remember to call many of them (not all, I'm sure) "Christians" -- in name.
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@Thomas Zaslavsky
While I might think that about some people, I can't make that conclusion about the faith of others. Unless, that is, they show an undeniable evidence in their actions.
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It is absolutely imperative that Democrats who speak on the topic of late term abortion, do so very cautiously. Anything you say can and will be held against you by right wing media.
I first learned about this Northam abortion thing from a right wing zealot who was absolutely convinced that Democrats want to legalize infanticide. This is a ludicrous position. Any baby carried to full term that can survive outside the womb on its own is a person protected by all our laws. Killing such a person is murder.
But the right wants to believe that Democrats are baby killers. This debacle, created by Northam, has caused serious damage to the cause of women's reproductive freedom.
The lesson here is that male chauvinism on the left exists and the stupidity if fosters creates large political openings for ultra conservatives. Northam should have kept his mouth shut. But what do you expect from a guy who has to be told by his wife not to do a moonwalk at a press conference.
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@Bruce Rozenblit Odd, then why would the, soon to be ex-governor, say the baby would be delivered and set aside while the mother and doctors determine what to do with it?
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@Dean Koslofsky
These babies have serious medical conditions, and they will, in most cases, live short painful lives that will require much care. Parents have a terribly tragic decision to make. They do not need the government in the room to force them and the child into an even more painful situation.
At the end of the day, non of the self-righteous so-called pro-life advocates and speechifying senators will be present to help.
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@Dean Koslofsky
Because, clearly, many decisions need to be made when a baby is born with many problems - what supportive care is needed? what interventions, such as surgery, are available? how effective will any of these steps be? what is in the best interests of the child? etc. Come on, do you really honestly imagine he meant anything else? Please don't trivialize the pain of the parents and the anguish of those moments by pretending otherwise.
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This is an excellent column. It depicts the issue as enormously complex, one that juxtaposes weighty moral imperatives thoughtfully and with nuance.
Ms. Goldberg points out that Trump is apparently incapable of telling the truth. I disagree with that. It is not in Trump's interest to tell the truth. It is in his interest to stir the pot, to distort, to inflame, to obfuscate.
Take Russia. It makes all the sense in the world for trump to avoid the truth. He may very well be able to tell the truth, but the truth would be likely to send him somewhere far away from the White House. Or maybe not that far....Where is Manafort living again? Just outside of Washington in a small room.
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@Dan
I don't think it is so very complex. Most of the apparent complexities are due to opponents dreaming up nonexistent scenarios that would never approach the required approval. I'm sure there are difficult cases, but I don't think they are usually complex, just painful.
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