Who might tweet "there's good people on both sides"?
1
I am amazed at how few have read the article but choose spout off about their thoughts on the article. Did everyone mis that they engage with the other communities in the area.
11
"...purveyors of disinformation peddled false stories claiming
weapons were bound for Islamberg, that President Trump had ordered a raid and that investigators had uncovered “America’s WORST Nightmare.”
It is a frightening thought that hate groups are stockpiling weapons and truly believing they are acting under orders of the president. It is not unimaginable that the possibility of a Trump defeat in 2020 could unleash armed violence against the "other" all over the country not just in this small community in upstate New York. President Trump has sanctioned hate as a political weapon and we may be his future victims.
13
Reading this report side by side on the same day that another NY Times article explains France's predicament with its Muslim population brings up so many questions. Read Kamel Daoud's "France Has Millions of Muslims. Why Does It Import Imams? - State secularism works in funny ways."
2001 seems so long ago. The world is a different place ever since 9/11. The four accused in the Islamberg case are 16, 18, 19, 20. The three named were mere babies at the time. Freedom to believe can cut and hurt so many ways. Religions continue to divide people rather than unite them.
Kurt Anderson's "Fantasyland" explains the role of religions played in American history. John Lennon's lyrics will always be an ideal so close and yet so far. Imagine there's no religion. Indeed.
11
“I think the fact that the members are Muslim and almost all African-American is a source of a lot of the anxiety. I think it’s straight up religious and racial fear.”
Let's not candy coat it by ascribing it to fear. It springs from racism and religious hatred. The low-lives involved need to have the book thrown at them, not that there's a prayer of that happening. After all, they're white and, I'm sure, Christian.
16
@Jamal by your logic. Timothy McVeigh wasn't Christian
4
@Jamal
Who doesn't look white? mkc was, I presume, referring to the "low-lives" who were arrested for plotting the attack. They look white to me.
9
I'm not paranoid but why don't you mention that the founder of the colony Mubarak Ali Gilani also founded Jamaat ul-Fuqra, a violent militant group predominantly composed of African-American Muslims involved in arson, murder, bombings and money laundering in North America. The members of Jamaat ul-Fuqra group have been involved in various terrorist plots including the 1983 Hotel Rajneesh bombing and the failed 1991 Toronto bomb plot.
I'm just saying...
12
islamberg gets to the heart of why america was founded. freedom to believe what you want and not be harassed by the government. let these folks live in peace.
111
One glaring piece of information is missing from this article and that is WHO is making these "documentary-style videos" and disinformation. Where does their funding come from? And who is spreading it? Another question not raised is what's up with the near identical moustaches on the three little boys charged?
9
Again, it is white males who are the real terrorists. And they’re fueled by the ignorant rants of Trump & the far right pundits who make big money pumping up these fools who then take steps to “MAGA”!
Every community has a bad egg or two but they don’t deserve to become the targets of the neo-nazis, white supremacists & failed Boy Scouts.
21
Terrific! So Hasidic Jews and Muslims live happily in Upstate NY.
Great example to the world that it is possible. (looking at the positive)
7
Sites that spread unfounded conspiracy theories, the owners should be sued if it ends in violence; Pittsburgh.
7
Pizzagate has been debunked numerous times: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iTb0ta5_84
3
Civility is a dog whistle for white imperialism.
3
@Bernie
What does this even mean???
15
As the crow flies, I live a few miles from Islamberg.
I taught the children who came to Hancock Central School. Funny kids, smart kids, athletic kids, kind kids, tall kids, short kids, sometimes-in-trouble kids - in short, high school kids just like other high school kids.
For these young men in Greece to target a group they don't even know is shameful. If you are reading this comment and know of others who spread misinformation, please attempt to help them to stop believing the lies.
I have had the conversation with some whose minds I have not changed, so in some cases, it may be difficult to prevail.
But is is our duty to try.
471
If the four people charged with criminal possession of a weapon and conspiracy are convicted, perhaps part of their sentence should require them to live in Islamberg for a period of months, doing community service or something. The point would be to educate them about reality, counteracting the misinformation they read on the internet. Indeed, they could post their reports on what they found -- and didn't find -- on the same sites, like 4chan, where they got their misinformation in the first place.
214
@Jim Meehan not a bad idea actually.
13
@Jim Meehan
It would be extremely generous of the Islamberg community to accept those kids to live in their home for a period of months. It sounds like they moved out there precisely to get away from that sort of social pathology. Personally, I wouldn't want to risk exposing my own children to bad influences like that.
55
@Jim Meehan
Good idea. I offered something similar above but they are not open to truth, learning or finding a better way. Two, maybe three come from Italian-American background by their surnames. All are swarthy, dark eyes, unkempt in appearance with unruly facial hair.
Whoops! That would be doing as they do. Measuring a person based on race, color, creed and not on a better more rational basis as kind, respectful, helpful and honest. They are just humans, like us all, crawling around trying to survive.
The Trumps like that. They sit on the top of the pile and put one group against another. It is a time proven way to stay on top.
These poor in spirit if not in wealth and education kids are ready to kill. Not what America or so-called Christianity is all about. Or maybe they are?
13
Those pictures of the young men is scary. The picture of the Islamic group seems at peace.
Why don't the three fellows be given the opportunity to join the Marines, the Peace Corp or serve in a food kitchen that serves the poor? Maybe they can sent to Trump rallies to spread love and peace!
Or if you really want to punish them, make them government employees assigned to the White House. They would like that: staff at the White House.
The real issue is the still apparent need of many people to believe in someone with super natural power and an ability to do the thinking for them: Trump, Santa Claus, your favorite movie star, Hannity, Satan, Limbaugh, or a powerful godhead who guides everything in the universe and judges everyone.
As George Carlin said, "When you sin, you will be judged by God and sent to hell forever. But remember, God loves you."
Remember that!
4
Good on the people of Islamberg and their Binghamton neighbors.
The dark skin that sends shivers of fear down white supremacists' spines and turns their faces scarlet with hatred is a chemical pigment (there is more than one type) produced by the body that is found in all races. As with a lot of things that have toxic "side effects," a little goes a long ways. By weight, the amount of melanin produced by a 200-lb black person measured against that produced by a white of the same size would probably not be measurable with the garden variety kitchen scale.
But then, people that want to hate don't need much of a difference to find all the encouragement they need to express that ugly emotion.
8
One of the perils of the internet. There is so much false information disseminated to a public who have their prejudices. We now some in from Russia whose purpose is to destabilize our country. I hope the plotters have a lot of time in prison to consider their ignorance.
6
The internet is an open sewer where anyone can say and post almost anything. Facebook along with Twitter and others did nothing to stop or monitor this hate until last year. They knew and played dumb.
Not all speech is free.
Time for a new and better internet !
6
The three arrested individuals must be extremely dim witted to believe - based on internet chatter - that an alleged terrorist training ground is so open and notorious to be well known among right wing bloggers, but so completely unknown to law enforcement, that only they can take care of the problem with weapons. Or is it just blind racism or hatred of Islam driving such plots? The would be perpetrators of this plot are the real terrorists.
31
@RW Well said!
4
I recently completed a 5-year research study about the failed attempt to build a mosque in a rural area of California. The Muslims who tried to build the mosque never expected the huge amount of resistance - especially from community members who were opposed to Muslims living in the area. I'll be presenting the research on March 26, 2019 during a free webinar which is open to the public (link below).
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/cordoba-center-study-presentation-tickets-55167870586
7
Freedom of religion incorporates freedom to worship in other faiths that do not have a Judeo-Christian godhead. As long as such worship is not harmful to others (or hopefully the worshippers themselves) there is no harm. A better education for these aimless kids might help, but it also has to start with their parents. Gratitude goes to law enforcement who routed out these unthinking punks before they could commit real mayhem. Bottom line: only a minority of Muslims are bad, as is true with a minority of Jews, Christians, Zoroastrians, etc. Second bottom line: trying to find a rational discussion of politics on Facebook is like trying to find a gourmet meal at McDonald's. Actually, the chances of the latter are much better these days!
18
If free speech doesn't include falsely shouting Fire in a crowded theater, why is it free speech for these conspiracy theorists like Infowars, Alex Jones, etc. to spew their lies and instigate others to violence?
28
It's time we have a frank and open discussion about homophobia in the Muslim community. None of the Muslims I know are open to marriage equality, trans rights, or LGBTQ right in general, yet we fight hard in the Democrat discourse for the rights of Muslim people. Are we, as a country, missing something worth fighting for without their presence here?
19
@Jason While you're at it, investigate the Mormons, the Baptists, and maybe the Catholics. Maybe you should investigate everyone!
35
Two thoughts:
1. You don’t know all Muslims.
2. I know an awful lot of evangelicals who are just as homophobic. Why don’t we start with them?
38
@Jason sorry jason but you really have to rethink that... most religions are that way, remember the catholic church? lets throw in child abuse into that while we are at it... then we have those wonderful church in the south.... religion has always been a problem , they do not practice what they preach
14
It is an interesting absurdity that these clearly misinformed young men, following the guidance of radical right-wing extremists, are arrested for stockpiling weapons to attack a peaceful community because they have been told it is an enclave run by radical Islamic extremists who are stockpiling weapons to attack other peaceful Americans.
These boys were at best, toddlers when the World Trade Towers were brought down in 2001. And in the intervening years they learned little. Instead they succumbed to the same sort of brainwashing that inspired jihadists of one stripe or another for centuries.
"When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn".
12
I’m reading the comments, agreeing with the ones expressing tolerance. But I have to confess, if a religious commune of any kind were to take root near my own property, I’d be worried. Partly from the likely loss of property value, and partly due to my own bias against religious institutions that seep into civic life. I agree with one comment I read about the more invasive disruptions caused by the orthodox Jewish communities that have gobbled up small rural communities in the northeast while being maintained largely on the public dole. These events set precedents that seem un-American to me. Separatism in general seems un-American. Not a fan, in the big picture.
19
So nice to see them all assimilating and integrating so well!
6
@Jim,
Maybe you should read the article more closely before commenting. I think you missed the part where the original settlers of Islamberg were mostly African-Americans, i.e. descendents of slaves, who were intent on unasssimilating from the less savory aspects of 1970s NYC.
7
@Jim
No different than many other American religious self-segregated communities. Which BTW, these people seem to be mostly birthright Americans practicing their constitutionally protected religion. What's to assimilate?
Think of the fundamentalist Mormoms, the Branch Davidians, the Amish, Oneida, not too far away.
13
@carol goldstein, would you want to "assimilate" into the violence of certain NYC areas? Your comment sounds like a veiled religious prejudice - actually, not very veiled.
Or - do I misunderstand?
4
A few quibbles with the reporting: "No evidence proving"? Want does that mean? I assume the NYT declined to investigate the Gilani/am-Fuqra ties (both now and when the Pearl murder happened). Also any religious enclave guarded by a "security post" should not take leaders at their word on any quotes about residents' freedom or threat to society. Any quotes from people who have left the community? Those are usually more interesting than those from inside.
None of this makes me suspect these people (who I'd never heard of until now) of some great conspiracy, but reporting like this helps show why right wing "journalism" like that described thrives. If NYT won't investigate or debunk these alleged "ties", people will flock to alternative news sources to get the info.
17
@John
The article references and links to a 2008 report by the Combating Terrorism Center at West Point that directly addresses accusations of a link with al-Fuqra. https://ctc.usma.edu/jamaat-al-fuqara-an-overblown-threat/ "Nevertheless, there is no evidence that these or other jama`ats have functioned as “covert paramilitary training compounds,” as the Colorado Attorney General’s office alleged in December 2001 11. It should also be mentioned that neither the presence of weapons (or even arsenals), nor weapons training are particularly unusual phenomena in rural America. It must also be noted that JF/MOA’s self-imposed isolation from a society it deems sinful and corrupt is hardly unique within the American religious tradition. Other Muslims, as well as Christians and members of other faiths, have engaged in various forms of intentional separation from American society." I don't think it is a fair criticism to say the article or the NYTimes did not investigate or debunk these alleged ties.
6
It seems like the real danger is teen and twenty-something white boys (and sometimes older) with an arsenal of weapons and nothing better to do than target and kill people for...what? There were 2 mass shootings just last week perpetrated by the same, and January's not over yet. What is our "genius" president going to do about them? Maybe we should be rounding up those boys and putting them in cages to keep us safe, or build a wall around everything to keep them out.
10
I just finished reading "Educated" by Tara Westover. She grew up in a Mormon family in what appears to be a very fundamentalist if not extremist household and town in southeaster Idaho. The children were abused, never vaccinated, didn't even have birth certificates. The mother is/was an unlicensed midwife who delivered hundreds of babies. The very edgy, outsider community apparently has long been tolerated with no need to protect or school children or curtail dicey medical practices.
To be best of my knowledge no one ever harassed, threatened or conspired against them regardless of their fantasies.
White privilege? Religious privilege?
25
I see one mention of Shariah law in the description of the far right's beliefs regarding such communities.
But I do not see a denial of that accusation, or even a hint that Shariah law is not being practiced within the community. Anybody know?
14
@Texas Liberal , this is a community of 200 people. How about we worry about the 50 million evangelicals who are trying to impose religious rules on a bunch of issues (which are very similar to Islamic views): abortion, LGBT rights, role of women in society. No difference between those evangelicals and hard-right Muslims.
24
@Texas Liberal
Not clear what difference that makes, specifically. Why does claiming that a group follows Shariah automatically qualify as an "accusation"?
4
Hmm. Anyone know if any Christian denominations in the U. S. practice Biblical law? That's pretty draconian stuff. Are you truly familiar with the term "Sharia law"? Not wanting to be critical. The alt. right loves to use it, but the majority of non-Muslims are unaware that the term has no meaning. Sharia is merely the Muslim way. It is interpreted differently by the 5 formal schools of Islam, and practiced differently in different Muslim-majority nations. Think of how differently the same U.S. laws are interpreted in the U.S. Courts of Appeal for the 8th and 9th Circuits, respectively.
The absence of religious tolerance forced our then-Quaker family to flee England in 1689. We've paid our dues here, and even if we worshiped a stuffed goose, it would be our right to do so, as guaranteed by the Constitution. Oh, and Quakers were quite vocal during the debate about the roles of religion and the state when the founding mothers and fathers were defining the freedoms and prohibitions to be included in the First Amendment. Two generations of intermittent imprisonment for failure to pay tithes to the established Church of England was enough for us, thank you.
7
I'm sorry but can we circle back around and focus on this line from the Counter-Terrorism Center at West Point?
“the presence of weapons (or even arsenals), nor weapons training are particularly unusual phenomena in rural America.”
Talk about your buried lede! Am I the only one who fails to find comfort in the fact that large numbers of "rural Americans" are stockpiling arsenals and training with them for...fun?
23
I hope these young men's backgrounds are thoroughly investigated by the FBI to determine how they were inspired to become terrorists. Anyone who directly advocated violence against the target town should be prosecuted as harshly as possible.
American presidents have directed deadly drone-strikes against foreign and domestic propagandists for similar speech. I emphatically oppose that kind of extra-legal and deadly force (as strongly as I oppose these terrorists), but I believe we must use our full arsenal of due-process legal force against all advocates of terrorism. Criminal action to put them behind bars. Civil action to take away every last penny of their wealth. Business regulation to take them off the airwaves and out of public commerce.
If the (civil and criminal) laws against libel and incitement to violence are exercised uniformly, based on words and actions and not on ideology and who the targets are, they will unite us as a nation of laws.
13
“They are law-abiding,” said Maj. William F. McEvoy. (Unlike the bigoted cretins that were plotting an attack.)
33
Fight alleged terrorists by becoming terrorists. Only right wingers can be so stupid and hypocritical.
58
I have a dream today but it's probably only a dream. My dream is that some day there will be a state championship in some sport where the two teams that make the final will be a team from Islamberg and a team from Kiryas Joel, and the game will end in a tie, and everyone will be delighted at the result, and there will be no need for overtime, and those who attend the awards banquet will share both halal and kosher foods.
62
@Boneisha
A lovely idea indeed. May I add to the dream: teams include both men and women – together or not – as they wish.
12
@sa -- Men and women together? I think that's going to be a tough sell at Kiryas Joel.
8
This article is just another reminder that right wing Evangelical Christians are the biggest threat to our country.
76
Isolation is not the answer. Integration is!
J
19
@Joan
Answer to what?
Anyone in America (yes, I do see you are from our wonderful neighbor to the north,) can isolate themselves as they and the laws permit.
4
@Joan but this did start at a totally different time and ideology....there were few opportunities to integrate...fear is the fuel for these peoples actions....
2
@Joan if you are a poor african-american, and wish to live peacefully in a healthy rural environment, would you insist on "integrating" into the violent NYC black neighborhoods? Maybe they cannot afford to buy a lovely rural farm in areas that are not isolated and inaccessible.
4
And when they find a large cash of high powered weapons in far RW homes that is called "2nd amendment rights"
44
Aimless, ignorant, gun toting youth are a significant component of trumps Make America Great Again train to nowhere. Hate and ignorance go hand in hand, and a pandering and spineless Republican Party is itself complicit in this trip down the rabbet hole of hate. The next election must send this party of divisiveness and hate a message that even their ill educated minions are capable of understanding. Vote them out en masse!!
41
@Devar Well said!
13
So happy the extremists in Greece have been identified. My prayers go out o all who have been persecuted, threatened, killed, and forced away from home on account of their desires to live peacefully and prayerfully among themselves.
This has happened to Seminoles, Choctaws, Haudenosaunee, Amish, Mormons, Muslims, Sikhs, Buddhists, and Catholics.....and numerous others, ever since North America was colonized by Europeans escaping religious persecution.....
Yeah, right---escaping religious persecution, but perpetrating it against others...... Hypocritical, isn't it?
Will people ever learn to respect one another's differences while being equal in our humanity? All of us are built of 46-chromosomed cells......
15
@ultimateliberal
The colonists "escaping religious persecution" were really persecutors themselves who couldn't get their way in Europe. The Puritans, for example, tried to enforce their views of religious purity on their neighbors, who weren't having it.
16
@ultimateliberal:
thank you so much for the historical reminder!
it is so much to the point.
as to your question "will people ever learn ...?"
i have daily increasing doubts about that capacity.
just as homo "sapiens" is silly enough to DESTROY
the very environment s|he so depends on for life,
they fail to see the ultimate need for coexistence.
[and then there are people who say that chaos,
i.e. destruction, is the best breeding ground for
creativity and growth. as in: "peace doesn't pay."]
7
@Coyoty Yes, I understand your historical view. It is true that the Puritans felt the Anglican Church did not "purify" itself of Roman Catholic tenets; on the other hand, many European countries at the time, 1200-1800, had state-established religion that people wanted/needed to escape. Spain was an especially difficult place for Sephardic Jews moving through North Africa into Europe. My ancestors were among them, finding their way to the Netherlands to emigrate to New York.
5
“I think the fact that the members are Muslim and almost all African-American is a source of a lot of the anxiety. I think it’s straight up religious and racial fear.”
_____________
“I think the fact that the members are Muslim and almost all African-American is a source of a lot of the anxiety. I think it’s straight up religious and racial bigotry.”
There, I fixed it.
16
It is sad there is so much hatred.
11
Setting up your own society and rejecting american values is not a good thing. There are lots of bad practices in the muslim religion. Can you imagine a life of brian movie on mohammad. americans would be killed for free speech.
11
Actually, it seems they practice the most American of ideals ... self-sufficiency, law and order, education, character, integrity and self-reliance. The problems come when outsiders insist on violently injecting themselves into a place they are not needed or wanted. The four youths should plot to learn something from the community instead of seeking to destroy it.
9
@Pete
Neither is making assumptions that they are actually doing those things in order to justify taking action against them. Nowhere is it shown that they are rejecting American values (do you mean Native American traditions?) or isolating themselves. In fact, the article emphasizes that they have been reaching out to surrounding towns and law enforcement, and participating in local events. They are Americans, and their values are American. You are the one rejecting American value of religious freedom.
14
You are conflating ‘American values’ with your personal religious beliefs. That is wrong. They have the same right to live as they please in peace as other groups, just like the Amish for instance.
14
The real terrorists are home grown 99% of the time.
Allow enough crackpots full access to an arsenal and no one is safe!
Yes, the Second Amendment is alive and well!
17
I can't think of a more blatant example of far right gullibility than believing that militant Islamists would name their clandestine terrorist center "Islamberg".
They built it right next to sister training grounds Bombston and Jihadville. How did they elude the feds for all these years? That's because the Rothschild-run Deep State is abetting the Muslim invasion of Kentucky. They're after the gold in Fort Knox, see.
13
I do not support muslim enclaves in USA until Islamic states like Saudi Arabia reciprocate and give same rights to non-muslims. I condemn islamic supremacist ideology in all its shapes , colors and manifestations. Zero tolerance for it.
14
Saudi Arabia’s domestic affairs have absolutely zero to do with Americans’ constitutional religious rights. Period. I don’t support that those who are blatantly intolerant or racist being allowed to vote, but my personal opinion does not trump the constitution on the matter.
15
@IdoltrousInfidel
You say you condemn "supremacist ideology" but yet you support their "eye for an eye" philosophy that leaves all blind.
6
@IdoltrousInfidel:
consider, if you will, [christian] capitalism
and all the damage it has been doing through wars,
economic exploitation, slavery etc. around the globe,
and for centuries.
isn't that one manifestation of a supremacist ideology, too?
even the environment suffers greatly from that supremacy.
zero tolerance for any kind of extremism.
but is homo sapiens even capable of moderation?
4
I do fear more of Pepe's tadpoles are on their way now and I will not be Tweeting this story of Trumpian Terrorism.
1
One good thing about Trump. The racists are coming out of the woodwork and being exposed.
7
Obviously violence is bad, but I would bet a huge some of money that these people, just like the many crazy Christian enclaves and compounds that have existed over the years, pay way more respect to the laws of Allah than the laws of the U.S., and are going to cause the exact same problems that homogeneous, self-segregating, religious groups always cause, whether they be Christrian, Hasidic, or Muslim.
10
@Emily
“They are law-abiding,” said Maj. William F. McEvoy, the State Police commander.
"homogeneous, self-segregating, religious groups" are among the founders of this country, including those celebrated by nearly all of us every Thanksgiving, and most have caused no more problems than other citizens.
"huge some of money" makes it sound like you're hedging your bets.
5
@Emily: so,
even though NOT A SINGLE WORD in the article
pointed in the direction you are willing to bet on,
you feel comfortable believing what you consider
your truth.
i worry about groups of people who despise the state
so much that they prefer to home-school their kids.
even more i despise tax evaders and money launderers
who steal HUGE SUMS OF MONEY from public coffers
and cause enormous amounts of problems ... including
lack of funds for good public education, to name only 1!
4
Uh, how can you write such a supposed in depth article and have no quotes from the local Muslim community and religious leaders?
2
Did you read the article to hear what the mayor said or the lady who was one of the original settlers?
9
Advertising this Islamberg as a place for tolerance, how about so called security check at the entrance, any freedom for investigating real daylife in this place?
This looks like the old soviet zone with gates, fences and rules claiming bad life is outside and forbidding any escape.
Just let those muslim explain what is the problem with a Jewish state in the millenarium Jew's temple place, rather than muslims countries in war all around.
6
@Jacques Lignieres
If they are the target of potential violence, would it not make sense to have check points. Common sense.
13
@Jacques Lignieres
I think maybe right-wing fanatics building arsenals and planning to attack them might have something to do with their security measures.
15
It’s called a gated community in United States. I would put a bigger gate if I’m confronted with the fact that 3 violent attacks against my community was about to happen in as many years. Did you ever call Amish or Hassidic Jews for the same issues. I don’t believe in living like this but they have every right to do this. This fake colonial French bigotry won’t work here.
13
What I don’t understand about the white nationalists - and to be clear, someone on 4chan once live blogged killing his girlfriend, so you can basically disregard anything coming off that anonymous cesspool of filth - anyway, what I don’t understand about white nationalists is, let’s say they’re Really Onto Something, and their obvious paranoia isn’t just about fear of ethnic minorities and white folk’s diminishing share of the US population. I don’t believe this, but clearly a lot of these violent people do.
Why don’t they think the FBI would be all over this community if it posed an actual threat? I mean, in the last 12 hours I’ve read about three foiled plots to bomb people for the capital crime of being a Muslim. These people must really believe that the entire around them is a conspiracy to empower people of color who worship the “wrong” god and to disenfranchise the white folk who worship the “right” god.
Is it PC for me to call white nationalists domestic terrorists yet? What’s the over/under for how many foiled attempted bombings it would take to call this what it is? Muslim Americans have every right to live and practice as they choose.
14
@Ryan Swanzey
These are people who think the FBI isn't doing anything about Hillary Clinton running a child porn human trafficking ring out of a pizza restaurant in plain view, so they take it upon themselves to do something about it. Instead of calling the FBI. They want to be the heroes themselves and get the glory.
10
Are these real Muslims or part of the Nation of Islam a hate group listed as such with the KKK by the Southern Poverty Law Center?
It was not clear in the article.
6
@JR Read again. The article clearly states the group was founded by a cleric from Pakistan, not part of the Nation of Islam.
10
Let's go over there and teach those people a lesion about life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, by shooting them and blowing them up! What? Tried that before, it didn't work? Well you didn't use enough guns and bombs, keep trying.
1
I saw a photo on social media of a group of white men with shotguns when I searched for Islamberg.
3
It's amazing. Every major city has a China Town or Orthodox Jewish communities. Mormons are allowed to have their own enclaves. But don't let a bunch of brown and black Muslims attempt to live in peace. Notice that the "Christians" that attack them never see the irony in how their religious beliefs collide with their criminality.
33
This story reminds me of the idiotic internet rumors about the place I live, Dearborn Michigan. It's one of the largest Muslim communities in the U.S., but Muslim and non-Muslim get along fine and work side-by-side to make this the great community it is. But that doesn't stop the bird-brains who believe what they read on the internet that Dearborn has succumbed to Sharia Law. It doesn't stop that idiot "pastor" from Florida, Terry Jones, from coming up here and demonstrating in front of my son's high school and in front of the large mosque in town to try to whip up anti-Muslim frenzy. As usual, it's the people who have no idea what they're talking about and are driven only by their own hatred and prejudice who cause trouble. And there are always plenty of numbskulls on the internet who are ready to believe anything they read if it confirms their idiotic beliefs. The spread of internet stupidity has become downright dangerous,
179
Right wing extremists certainly seem to have a very large share of less-educated, low information, easily influenced types of people. There seems to be something about right wing extremism that attracts the less intelligent amongst us. I guess that is why it is so utterly easy to cultivate unfounded fear among right wingers.
14
Those three suspects don't look like Americans.
What does an American look like?
2
Hatred is not something you're born with, it is something you learn. Where oh where are the caring, compassionate, responsible adults in these young men's lives?
6
@Dolsen
"You've Got To Be Carefully Taught"
"South Pacific" (1949)
Words: Oscar Hammerstein II
Music: Richard Rodgers
You've got to be taught
To hate and fear
You've got to be taught
From year to year
It's got to be drummed
in your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught
You've got to be taught
To be afraid
Of people whose eyes
are oddly made
And people whose skin
Is a different shade
You've got to be carefully taught
You've got to be taught
Before it's too late
Before you are 6 or 7 or 8
To hate all the people
your relatives hate
You've got to be carefully taught
###
16
And so, the Internet has become the theater referred to by Mr. Justice Holmes [Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919)] in which the ignorant, the bigoted, the stupid, the demented and the deranged (none of which are mutually exclusive) pose a clear and present danger by falsely crying 'FIRE!' to a world-wide audience (a not insubstantial number of which have the discernment of a tree stump) with near impunity (and anonymity).
16
Before this article, I didn’t know about this community. I didn’t need to. How are they different from communities of mostly white people in places like Wyoming and Montana? And as for possessing guns and ammunition, well that the American way isn’t it?
Don’t we need MORE communities like this? Aren’t they more likely to produce well-educated, principled people who will contribute to America?
I grew up in the sixties, my teenage years. I witnessed the race riots, attended a very diverse public high school, and made friends and enemies with all kinds of different people. I thought we had put racism on the margins, where it belongs.
Now we live in a divided America. Trump has done nothing to be president for all of us. He caters to a sizable but minority base of people who believe the US should be made up of white people with connections to Europe. No brown people, thank you very much.
What a boring nation that would be. Live and let live. Trust people until they give you a reason not to trust. Give others the space they need to live a good life in America. That’s what we’re about.
134
I'm becoming more and more certain that everything that ails America stems from the lack of critical thinking skills. We need to revamp our educational system. Anyone who does not demonstrate the ability to think through issues in a reasonable manner does not get to advance.
25
@Annie
Unfortunately, many on the right don’t want their children to learn critical thinking skills but instead want them to believe in intelligent design, and that this is a “Christian” nation.
13
"Last week, the police in Greece, N.Y., roughly 200 miles away, arrested four young people who are accused of amassing a stockpile of firearms and homemade bombs with plans to target the community."
Thanks to the authorities and the police for defending two core American values: freedom of belief and freedom of speech. These are the values that make America great!
27
As part of their sentences, could not hate crime perpetrators be required to spend some months (heavily monitored of course) living in the communities they target? Punishment is one thing, but changing and healing their hearts is the real goal.
13
@Patricia Goodson, Funny--I came to the same idea that you did as I read through this article. Possibly a response so much more truly corrective than simply relegating these already dark and brooding youth to the even darker and more brooding state we call incarceration...certainly something to think about. Of course we'd first need to ask the citizens of Islamberg whether they had an interest in taking these boys on, as a cause. It would appear there are a whole lot of misguided boys in need of a healing...
10
@Patricia Goodson
EXCELLENT IDEA!
5
Get to know them by walking two moons in their moccasins.
6
I'm glad the authorities caught the suspects. I'm glad the suspects weren't able to execute their plan. If they are proven guilty, I hope they are punished severely. The fact that they are young does not make me feel sympathy for them. I don't care what there is on the Internet; every sane person in this country knows that regardless of one's suspicions, it's a serious crime to simply violently attack other people, or to attempt to do so.
24
@Joe
And as part of the process let's find out how they were influenced and by whom, and make that as public and instructive as possible.
4
This group seems, happily, to be in sharp contrast to the Hasidic sects operating in towns not far north of New York City. These extremely insular groups milk the system for tax dollars, in contravention of principles that are supposed to keep church and state separate.
50
@John H.I thought this article was about dealing with racism and prejudice Ideas NOT based on facts.
How did u get 21 likes?
3
@E, I see you are in California. If you followed regional politics in the greater NYC metro area you would be aware of how much disruption the enclave of Kiryas Joel has brought to its local jurisdictions, especially the public school district. I agree that John H. is a bit off point but the 20-plus likes are from people who know about and dislike KJ. BTW mine makes it 23.
11
@John H.
Can you give me the rate of public assistence for the Muslims in
Islamberg? The media has a tendency to gloss over the wrongs of
some demographics while nit picking others.
It's my impression the Hasidics have a pretty low rate of violent crime.
Why don't you take your condemnation for immigrant groups that
have high rates of violence?
The US has a long history of persecuting people with different ways, whether religious or oriented around other factor.
24
@Larry Roth You say that like the US is the main offender. Please. All countries are full of idiots. And when you have the third most populated one in the world, there's bound to be more.
@Andrew I think you're projecting a bit here. Nowhere do I say anything that suggests the US is the main offender. It's that while we'd like to pretend otherwise, we are not that exceptional.
4
Thank you, Mr. Rojas, and the NY Times for reporting the facts and for giving voice to an unfairly maligned and persecuted segment of our society. This isn't supposed to happen in America, and it grieves me to see my friends and neighbors having to deal with this on a daily basis.
To those who believe the people of Islamberg have chosen to "isolate" themselves and "withdraw from society" -- you couldn't be further from the truth. The fact is, these people are in our community every day... working, socializing, building businesses, helping their neighbors, and caring for their families. They are nurses, doctors, attorneys, laborers, college students... exemplary members of our small community and the greater community-at-large.
We, as a society, need to do a better job of not equating "different" with "wrong" and instead embrace those who are different for the depth and richness they add to our lives.
214
Well said Nancy. America would be a boring place if we were all alike.
14
@HeyJoe
After the events and wars of the last decade or two . . . a bit of boredom would be a welcome relief.
5
From everything I can tell, this community's only desire is to live in peace. Also, regarding a cache of weapons: I'm not a gun owner but if I lived in a community that I knew was the constant target of potentially violent racists, I too would be prepared to defend my family, my children and my life at all times.
44
What even constitute a cache of guns these days? You read about some of the more fringe gun enthusiasts and you wonder what they're prepping for and why nobody worries about them.
5
@Harold J.
Didn't the article say that these people get much of their food from farming and hunting?
4
There is no place in America for a community that does not recognize nor value the Bill of Rights and U.S. Constitution. Diversity must go hand-in-hand with equality! Period.
20
@Mark Clevey
There is absolutely no proof that they don't recognize either. What it boils down to is bigotry from people who can't stand someone being different.
6
@Mark Clevey That sounds like most communities of Trump supporters.
3
@Mark Clevey Where in this article does it state that this community does not recognize or value the Bill of Rights and the US Constitution?
11
Surely I am not the only person to see the supreme irony in the persecution of a group seeking religious freedom in the US? The Mormons, Irish Catholics, Jews? By white (presumably) Christian boys who just want everything to conform to their ideals. It's past time to re-introduce Civics classes and emphasize the freedom of religion and separation of power upon which the country was founded.
164
@Sandy What makes you assume they're Christian? In what way do you see them following the teachings of Jesus?
1
@Pat With that being said Pat, what Christly ideals do trump,pence, et al and the whole lot of the so called Christian right exude? I'll wait...
12
These are people who moved to a rural place in an attempt to create their own small community, and who peacefully interact with their neighbors and apparently send their children to public schools, as another commenter has mentioned teaching them. What I don’t understand is why all these right wing groups are obsessed with conspiracy theories falsely claiming Muslims are attempting to impose sharia law in this country when entire swaths of Rockland County have literally been colonized by extremist sects of Hasidic Jews, who are entirely separatists. They do not send their children to public schools but have taken over school boards and converted funds to their sole needs to the detriment of the public schools and their surrounding neighbors, and in fact, impose strict Hasidic religious law in these areas and erect “eruvs” on public property as well as on their non-religious neighbors properties without anyone’s consent. They ignore all zoning laws, including fire and building codes, endangering both themselves and others. Due to their religious beliefs, they have very large families (10-12 children), and many spend their lives studying their religious texts and do not work, with the result that they receive high levels of federal assistance, including welfare and food stamps. While I support anyone’s right to practice their religion, there has to be a balance in which the needs of the community at large are accorded equal respect.
119
@Barbara Sheridan. Under Trump culture and encouragement the need to have someone to hate is primary.
6
@Barbara Sheridan
"What I don’t understand is why all these right wing groups are obsessed with conspiracy theories falsely claiming Muslims are attempting to impose sharia law in this country when entire swaths of Rockland County have literally been colonized by extremist sects of Hasidic Jews, who are entirely separatists."
Perhaps because the Hasidic communities vote conservative and no one perceives them as terrorists?
8
@Barbara Sheridan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruv
eruvs - a classic example of wasted time and effort promoted by religions - and I am not singling out the orthodox Jews. Christians and Muslims have radical fanatic sects that are obsessed with preparing for the next life (if there is one) rather than being happy and productive in this one.
"Die Religion ... ist das Opium des Volkes" and is often rendered as "religion... is the opiate of the masses." ... The full quote from Karl Marx translates as: "Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions."
It would be a progressive step to tax all religious properties and holdings just like any business.
17
We continue to allow dangerous Americans, the ignorant and those seeking to foment unrest to spread lies, falsehoods, threats across the country. Is cost of social media is worth the potential for terrorism, homegrown, in America?
When you have groups continue to harass these folks, despite law enforcement, neighbors, co-workers telling them they have no clue what is reality, then you see it for what it is-good old American racism and hate.
14
Here is another CTC link:
https://ctc.usma.edu/jamaat-al-fuqara-a-domestic-terrorist-threat-to-the-united-states/
I believe these articles in the CTC Sentinel are what inspired the fringe group attention and plots against Islamberg.
3
Either we're all Americans or there's no such thing as America. Thank you, Major McAvoy.
13
Often when black people have formed successful communities in America, they have become the targets of white terrorism. I need not cite all the examples- buildings bombed and torched, towns destroyed, businesses reduced to rubble. Then conservatives complain that black people have no individual initiative. They are the “undeserving poor,” in Shaw’s famous phrase. (See My Fair Lady now at Lincoln Center).
So add to this the Muslim angle, and you get ignorant violent people activated.
The police and law enforcement officials upstate are to be commended, highly, for their clear understanding of the situation, and for their deft and effective defusing of what would have been a catastrophe.
86
The irony here is, to me, unavoidable. And it is circular.
Here we have decent, law abiding people who decide to leave the corrosive influence of the drug-and-crime-ridden urban environment in order to raise their children in a safe, loving, hard working, God-centered community. Sounds like they are doing right by their families and each other.
Back in the 1960's, this was the same underlying logic of the 'White flight" phenomenon, which was/is now considered to be a (white) racist reaction to the mass migration of southern blacks, swarming, it seemed, into northern cities.
Now we have, in a microcosm, black people who do a similar thing for largely the same reasons. Like the white families who, collectively, turned farmland into suburbia, they never had cause to look back, because the rightness of their decision was self-evident.
How terrible for these people, to be targeted like this.
How fortunate these people are, to know that the police are working for their protection, as they ought to be.
27
Like the Amish, the Mennonites, the Quakers these people left the hate and the violence of the cities to live a life in peace and prayer on the land. We need to protect and honor these communities that choose to live in Peace and Love.
White Rage has never been the solution for anything, except more hate and death
Leave these people alone and work to model our communities on Peace/Love - not guns and hate.
37
Let's not put these communities on pedestals. They leave to abide by their dogma which is often restrictive or abusive. I've known both former Mennonites and Amish. While there was good in their communities, the bad caused them to leave. Leaving usually comes with its own emotionally abusive rejection. Just thinking for yourself is a cause for judgment and trouble. Like many conservative Christians and Muslims, if you're an LGBT person, especially a child, or an outspoken woman your life is probably going to be hell.
Often I find my myself defending the Muslim immigrants and refugees that came to my city from Bosnia. They helped revitalize areas and have been good neighbors, something that's lacking in many parts of the city. Still, I am realistic in regard to their faith, just like I would be if I had Evangelical neighbors. Or Ultra Orthodox Jews, for that matter.
I'd certainly cast a wary eye at any religious group that withdraws to form an enclave. I'd certainly question their motivation. I'd also be concerned with how those among them, especially children and women, are treated if they don't conform or "behave" as expected. Religious groups that may have dogma intolerant of certain people or women can make it hard for the outside to step in if necessary or for the law to act. (Again, the Amish and Ultra Orthodox for example.) We do not need ridiculous conspiracy theories, but I'd say that in the 21st century we know enough to stop being so naive.
10
@SCB
If I may. Why are we so intent on teaching STEM when far too many are clueless as to basic history. America was 17% urban and 83% rural when it began. Today 83% are urban and suburban. There were never cities to flee for the Quakers and Anabaptists.
When two million Irish disappeared between 1845-1850 one million were deliberately starved to death in a booming food export economy and the other million were sold into the squalor of brand new industrial cities.
Urbanization is a new phenomenon.
1
American teenagers are so bored with their lives that they are willing to believe any garbage that floats on the internet. Part of the problem is the abysmal educational system in the United States. Schools barely teach anything, most kids lack basic analytical skills, logic and reasoning and life experience. Most live in the boonies, or in the suburbs, do not read and surf the internet. Great future generation. Now we have education under attack from both, republicans and democrats. Republicans keep reducing the funding for educational programs and democrats are eliminating competition in education, preferring mediocrity over meritocracy. DeBlasio is trying to destroy the top performing, highly selective high schools in New York City, Stuyvesant, Bronx Science and Brooklyn Tech, by eliminating the SHSAT and proposing a non competitive admission process. With a cretin in the White House and an imbecile in the Gracie Mansion who is warming up his mayoral seat for his wife, American kids don't have that much to look forward to. Ignorance and anger will run their lives.
20
Three words to solve this problem: Compulsory National Service. Not necessarily military, although that could be one option. Get young adults out of the comfort zone of their home towns or their ‘hood. They will learn a skill, along with discipline and the cooperation required to complete tasks side by side with other young people different than themselves. Put them to work fixing and building our infrastructure and helping to educate our young. Two years, every single high school grad. Model it after the wildly successful Civilian Conservation Corps.
8
The NY Times' Jo Thomas, interviewed me extensively while reporting the 2002 story about al-Fuqra. She interviewed the Muslim residents at the Red House community in rural Virginia and got the story right. (Just like this one.) Rural communities? Unregistered firearms? Quelle surprise! To paraphrase Ms. Thomas, If these people are terrorists, then so is my grandmother. Why then did Times' editor Ralph Blumenthal inserted this fake conclusion into the article?
"In 2002, after the gun-charge arrests of three people who the authorities said were part of Jamaat al-Fuqra, federal prosecutors described a “history of violence” involving the organization, including firebombings and murder. Islamberg’s leaders have denied a connection to the group."
(Blumenthal was working in the Texas bureau and unlike Thomas did no direct reporting on the story.)
A similar thing happened three weeks when I explained to a producer at ABC World News Tonight that Sufism – the creed practiced by the Muslims of America – is a quietist, peaceful sect. "Yes, I understand, but I have an executive producer in Washington pushing me in the other direction," she confessed.
Robert Dannin, author, "Black Pilgrimage to Islam," (NY: Oxford University Press, 2002).
27
Darned shame, the wasted lives of youngsters like the alleged terrorists; doing nothing useful; surfing the net, looking for people to hate.
It may be that their lives were destined to be dead ends, but I can't help thinking that, with a change here and there, things might have turned out better.
Now society will have to ladle up the money to warehouse, feed and clothe them for decades.
What a waste is hatred.
38
The pilgrims who first came here were escaping religious persecution. Freedom to practice religion is a gift to us all. Tribalism, however, has proven to be historically problematic as it promotes isolation and wars.
18
@Elizabethnyc
Tribalism is the root of almost all of the largest of human calamity. From skin color, to living inside or outside invisible lines on the ground, choice of mythology...all tribalism. I believe it to be borne of a positive human attribute in the beginning of time, people who were fearful and formed into tribes were more likely to pass on their genes. Unfortunately this gratuitous inherited fear, the fear-based need for humans to divide themselves into tribes, is the largest cause of human misery. It is not an emotional argument, it simply is.
6
The pilgrims came to America to form a theocratic government. Thank goodness for people like Roger Williams and organizations like the Friends (Quakers) who guided us toward a secular government with freedom to worship - or not - as we choose.
8
Our then-Quaker family came to PA in 1689. We've been fighting against an established church since then. Failing to support the Church of England had condemned 2 generations of the family to intermittent incarceration in English jails. Separation of church and state essential to preserving our civil liberties.
2
I respectfully disagree. It is freedom FROM religion that once made America great. People should be allowed to live free FROM the religious beliefs of others. Religion has no place in government or public institutions.
68
@Misplaced Modifier
Hunh? What are you respectfully disagreeing with? Who are you suggesting is imposing their religious beliefs on others here? What's that got to do with religious and racial bigotry and violence?
Islamberg isn't even the size of a single dairy farm, it's a remote, isolated hamlet, and it has no legal status as a "government" or "public institution," if that's what you're getting at.
Please explain.
22
My comment is a reply to another comment here. I don't know why it stands apart from the original posters comment
1
@Misplaced Modifier
Thanks
2
I'm from rural Vermont. In the past 11 years I've lived in Africa, China, The Middle East and Europe. 5 of those years were in Muslim countries and I had a uniformly welcoming and friendly connection with people there. The "Other" doesn't seem Other when you are in the middle of them for years. I became used to being Other, who looked different, different color, different language, (very) broken French and Arabic. I HOPE that we now in the USA can greet people who are a little different from us as positively as I was greeted.
Now we're back in Vermont and snow and cold don't seem unusual any more.
71
@Terry King...To the north of you there are 10 Muslims sitting on government benches in Ottawa and 3 are in Cabinet. They serve in a myriad of municipal and political legislatures as well and..the mayor of Calgary, aka Stampede City, is a Muslim. For that matter there are 14 Sikhs in Parliament as well and the Minister of Defense wears a turban. NHL hockey games are broadcast in English, French and....Punjabi!
9
@Terry King
Visit Israel as a tourist and then try to get into Saudi Arabia. They won't let you in if your passport has a an Israeli stamp. Next try to visit Iran and we'll see you after you get out of prison.
9
@Mark Shyres
Why is it that whenever someone tries to minimize differences, another one always comes up with "what about this"? We live in perhaps the greatest nation in human history, made unique by its ideals. Why do you want to compare America's greatness with closed theocracies.
BTW I can't get a visa to Israel as a naturalized US citizen because I was born in a Muslim nation.
7
If we are a nation founded on, among other ideals, freedom to worship as we please, then this group that have lived peacefully in the area for generations, should have that right. These 3 who hatched this plot have probably been listening to too much rhetoric from the current occupant of the white house. Mr. Trump's refusal to distance himself from ultra right wing fanatics is the root cause.
54
@Steven B Don't think so.
Small groups of religious people living in self imposed semi-isolation is part of American history and almost always no threat to anyone. Freedom of choice is what make America great. It is lucky the misguided young men were caught before they could do any damage and punishment is certainly deserved! My only other input is why did the author mention that these men had been Boy Scouts? How is that relevant unless the particular Scout Troop promoted violence and hated.
39
@Donna Gray
"It is unclear how the individuals were connected, but three of them had been Boy Scouts." I.e., that's the only information that suggests how they knew each other, and one thinks it must have been provided by the police. My impression is the author is just reporting.
15
@Donna Gray
More info -- per the Rochester Democrat & Chronicle, which has a much longer article in today's paper reviewing the entire story to date:
"Greece Police Chief Pat Phelan said during a press conference on Tuesday that the group had planned the attack over the course of about a month and had done so in part through social media channels, including the popular and largely private chat platform Discord...[,] a popular digital gathering space for members of the 'alt-right,' white supremacist and neo-Nazi communities. Discord was used to organize the 2017 Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia...
"Phelan did not provide many details on how the plotters knew each other or had come together to formulate their plan, other than to say that three had been in Boy Scouts together and that two had attained the rank of Eagle Scout.
"A Seneca Waterways Council newsletter from Spring 2018 shows that Crysel and Vetromile both achieved Eagle Scout status in 2017. They were also both members of Greece-based Boy Scouts of America Troop 240."
Although it's not in keeping with the Boy Scouts' image and history in general, as far as I know, it's not unreasonable to wonder if this particular Scout Troop did in some way promote violence and hatred. The police chief certainly thought it was worth mentioning.
29
It’s relevant in that’s what seemed to be how they had initially connected. Other press reports added that two of them were Eagle Scouts, which is even more disturbing. What they planned goes against the Scout Oath and Law.
19
Thank you Mr. Rojas for your report on Islamaburg. Fear of the other - in this case, again religious and racial intolerance is not American. Well timed that the article appears one day after The International Day of Commemoration in Memory of the Victims of the Holocaust. I am not religious and question the success of withdrawing from society, but I respect the views of others and wish the group success. I hope that the communitues and people in the area continue with the American values and character that is America and that the citizens of Islamaburg share in the strengthening of those values and character as they prosper and succeed.
53