It is terrible for three Canadians to face
Chinese law which is hard to understand
and seem to be overly harsh. Ms Meng's
arrest is also troublesome. So many banks
committed fraud in 2007-8 and some violated
Iran sanctions, itself a political strategy, none
was arrested. Even another Chinese company
ZTE was accused of Iran sanctions violation,
none of its executive was arrested. It is also
worth recalling that an Indian counselor was
arrested for violation of labor laws, but was
released and deported after India made fuss.
Since Trump has escalated the tension with
China, it doesn't look like a possibility. Trade
talks will fail if Ms Meng is extradited and
imprisoned for a maximum of 30 years.
Ultimately Canadian minister of justice will
have to sign off on extradition. The ball will
will be government court and ultimately a
diplomatic decision.
1
Canada should consider seizing the real estate people associated with the Chinese dictatorship have purchased in Vancouver, Toronto, etc.
3
It is astonishing to me that this Editorial calls for the immediate release of Canadians detained by the Chinese without at the same time calling for the immediate release of the Chinese businesswoman detained by Canada. What arrogance.
4
Authoritarian societies like China's, most of the rest of the global south, and Asia (and even Europe until a few hundred years ago thought), and still think it perfectly moral to use family members to include wives and children as hostages who can be tortured by social abuse, jailed or even killed for all manner of political or greed based goals. And this is why it is completely illogical and immoral for our selfish leaders who seldom suffer for their macho risk-taking to 'economically integrate' our western liberal democracies with no-rights, murderous and Gulag running ones like China's. And by the way the arrested and jailed Chinese woman is a criminal, not just someone high profile enough to exchange for her- but like these Canadians innocent of any crime. But this actually is good, because now perhaps both the US and Canadas elites will stop pumping trillions into this monster dictatorship that we are going to be in world war with in a few years.
2
Without the rule of law we are like golfers with clubs.
All it takes is one false move and the game is over.
@Rolloffdebunk
Then again, the rule of law means nothing to a nasty dictatorship that rules a nation with tanks, show trials, and concentration camps.
1
Hwawei is the kind of Chinese high-tech companies U.S. can not afford to let it prosper, which will definitely endanger American national security in the long run. Hwawi stole all its technologies and know-how from western firms like Cisco and Lucent with hardly its own innovation. In order to prevent China to threaten the rest of the world, U.S. must stop the Chinese firms' practice of outright technology theft.
2
(1) Trump represents us the U.S., so when he speaks, other countries listen.
Since T said “I would certainly intervene if I thought it was necessary”, and since there was no public Canadian challenge to T’s potential intervention, there is no longer that “rule of law” thing, i.e., the whole “rule of law” claimed by the Canadian judicial authority collapses.
(2) Ironically, the Editorial’s opening statement “Three Canadian citizens being detained by China … They should be released immediately.” would be against the rule of law, the Chinese rule of law. In the middle of the Editorial, it said “The (Chinese) Foreign Ministry said Ms. McIver had been working illegally”. Why should she be released immediately as she would also be detained by the U.S. government if she illegally worked in the U.S.?
Instead, I think the Chinese government should detail the charges against Michael Kovrig and Michael Spavor, the other two detainees, ASAP.
2
Canada should have never participated in Trump's crazy world trade war to begin with.
2
A lot of misinformation in the comments section. Trudeau did not arrest anyone, nor did the Trump administration pressure Ottawa in any way. When Meng Wanzhou entered Canadian territory, Canadian police acting on an international warrant for her arrest.
Yes, America issued the warrant and, yes, Trump should not have interjected himself into the situation, but many international observers find the idea that her company engages in espionage and circumvents international laws, not just US sanctions against Iran, perfectly credible.
4
@David Bird Agreed. I am also very suspicious of commenters who reveal their location as somewhere very famous, like "CA" or "TX" or "NY". You just have to wonder these days how genuine so many of them are.
2
The Editorial Board deserves praise for focusing its readers' attention on government's use of hostages. When we study nuclear weapons, we find that government takes innocent people hostage, not by kidnapping them, but where they live.
This was clear when the American government threatened on Sept 19, 2017 to totally destroy 26 million people. The taking of nuclear hostages has been going on since 1945 when the American government slaughtered hundreds of thousands of hostages in its bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima.
The implicit ethical belief of the rulers is the-ends-justify-the-means. Someone asked whether government recruits the most evil people, then promotes them to its highest offices, or whether it takes ordinary people, then makes them the most evil.
The Editorial Board helps us understand the evilism, enormity, and illegitimacy of government by drawing our attention to its unacceptable use of humans as its hostages.
4
Our Prime Minister made a huge mistake by getting involved in Trump's destruction of the the perfectly acceptable Iran nuclear deal.
The Iran deal and dropping of sanctions was widely accepted and lauded by our allies and international community and approved by the UN security council. The "rule of law" was violated when Trump unilaterally and arbitrarily destroyed it as part of his personal mission to destroy anything that Obama accomplished. Canada acquiesced in Trump's pointless gambit by doing America's bidding and arresting this Chinese businesswoman.
Now Canada is in a terrible position because we don't want to overtly defy the US and give Trump some reason to retaliate against us. Some have suggested that we should have resorted to "creative incompetence" and made some excuse not to arrest her as she was trying to leave, thus not overtly defying the US but also not becoming embroiled in Trump's personal politics of revenge.
Canada needs to learn its place and stop trying to punch above its weight on the international stage. And as always, the less we become embroiled in America's rogue global missions, the better.
3
Perhaps we could trade Trump for the Canadian citizens?
That wold be a win-win situation.
2
Just another product of the Made in China label.
Lets give credit where credit is due, to all the "American" executives who shuttered factories across the country and decimated the US labor force as Congress did what they do best, nothing.
Maybe it's not so bad as maybe those Canadians are being held on one of those beautiful man made islands in the SCS.
1
I suggest that the Times Editorial Board educate itself by reading "How China Views the Arrest of Huawei’s Meng Wanzhou" by Jiayang Fan in the December 17, 2018 issue of the New Yorker.
Ms. Meng is being threatened by the US with 30 YEARS in prison. Is there anyone in China who would believe that this prominent Chinese businesswoman will get a fair trial in the US?
China is a bad actor. It performs cyber espionage, represses minorities, and violates trade law. But, the US has no moral high ground here. We support brutal dictatorships all over the world when it's to our political or economic advantage, and we have been the most militarily aggressive country in the world, with a military budget to match.
So, I think it's worth taking a moment to consider what Ms. Meng's arrest looks like to the average Chinese citizen. Ms. Fan's article in the New Yorker does a good job of doing exactly that.
Ms. Meng is as much a hostage as the three Canadians.
6
@ShenBowen
"Ms. Meng is as much a hostage as the three Canadians."
Very funny. I can hear Sabrina laughing all the way from her $20 million house in Vancouver.
"Is there anyone in China who would believe that this prominent Chinese businesswoman will get a fair trial in the US?"
A crook like Meng should not be arrested because the Chinese, generally speaking, don't understand the United States at all?
2
As a Canadian, this is just one more example of America's self-importance and willingness to abandon allies. It was a mistake for my government to offer and then do the work of arresting someone under agreements signed with the unsteady foreign government to the south of us.
5
@Scott Johnson
As an American, Canada’s dramatic underspending on its brave military and its shirking of its NATO commitments over decades could also be considered a ‘willingness to abandon allies.’ Others have had to carry your water for you for decades.
2
Our Prime Minister Trudeau should never have arrested Ms. Meng at the behest of the USA. With all the support and friendliness that your inane president has bestowed on Canada, we'd have been better off being friends with the Russians.
I don't see Trump voicing his opinion or support for Canada, after 3 Canadians have already been arrested in China (there are about 200 canadians in China that have been arrested before this fiasco!)
2
@Majortrout
There is good evidence Meng violated US laws, as the Canadians and their honest legal system will decide.
Because Meng is Chinese and has a $20 million house in Vancouver doesn't mean she isn't a crook.
2
On the other hand, does this mean China will stop sending Canada fentanyl and buying up our residential real estate to use as a safety deposit boxes?
6
This article captures an unfair situation. Huawei executives travel the world, and to arrest Ms. Meng is selective discrimination. To suggest that the arrested Canadians are going to be treated as terrorists attacks the integrity of the Chinese people. With American and British weapons underwriting the war in Yemen it is hypercritical to site China as a human rights violator. Diplomats from Canada, China, and the US should sit down and come to a resolution over this political impasse. This opinion piece was very helpful in clarifying this strange situation.
12
@Jeff Stockwell
If Meng violated US laws, she is not immune from prosecution because she is Chinese and has money.
5
@Jeff Stockwell China has a history of taking political prisoners and torture - this article rightly attacks the integrity of the Chinese government, not its people.
10
The only good that is coming from this is that we are seeing the true face of the Chinese government.
It will be much more difficult to fool people into supporting a free trade agreement with China now.
3
@Geo
Read the ariticle in today's NYT on Chinese dam building in Equador.
China's legal system is not "weighted in favor of the government." China's legal system is the government (more properly understood, China does not even really have a government in the sense of "governing," but rather a complex bureaucracy that carries out the "will of the Party.). Each level of "People's Courts" has, as part of its normal structure, a "political-legal committee (zhengfa weiyuanhui)" the function of which is to ensure that all relevant case "decisions" reflect the will of the Communist Party. In China, liberal-sounding-institutions, like the People's "Congress," the People's "Supreme Court," etc, are not "institutions" in the Western sense, but merely functionally-differentiated aspects of a bureaucracy whose design and function is to carry out the will of the Party. All this is to say, that from a Chinese viewpoint, taking the three Canadians "hostage" is perfectly fine and legitimate (in the juristic sense) because the only function of the law is to carry out the will of the Party.
5
@John Gregory
They sound like present day Republicans.
The elder Trudeau would have show his famous fingers at this American extradiction request and that would have been the end of this story. Now we are in a pickle with the world's second largest economy.
As a Canadian taxpayer and businessman, I am very disappointed in Prime Minister's so called "value based" diplomacy, which roughly translated to be something like if you do not think like us, Canada does not want to do business with you. I think we may have lost potential investments in a car parts plant in Oshawa, and an oil sand plant in Alberta. For what?
1
The main issue here is what Meng violated is not just any US law, is US sanction on Iran. Now the details are important as whether she conducted such “illegal” activity on US soil, but the fact that US is able to prosecute foreign nations when they violate US sanction on a third country is itself problematic, and i legal foundation of such practice is shaky at best under the scrutiny of international law. The vast majority if not all prosecuted past violations of US sanction on Iran only result in fines on said organizations, but not the top executives themselves also complicate things. And finally, why started from arresting Chinese executive but not American executive who have probably conducted very similar “illegal” violation? Imagine If China has enacted similar laws on their sanctions on North Korea. Instead of prosecute many Chinese executives who have almost certainly violated the law, it chose to go after AT&T or Apple’s CFO(let just say they are suspected of attempting to trade with NK) while transit through South Korea( which it has extradition treaty with China). How will US react to that?
8
@Robert Hu
Crooks should be caught and punished even if alot of them are not.
With the early advent of John Bolton and the recent departure of General Jim Mattis, Donald Trump's engulfment of Amerca with his Twitter mentality has encompassed the world.
Trump's one-man dog-and-pony show has roiled American consumers and our domestic industries in a trade war whose only purpose has been to distract America from Trump's self-generated legal travails. Our stock markets have plunged like we haven't seen since the 2008 disaster, throwing investment and retirement accounts into turmoil. He shuts down the government because he can't have his meaningless show-piece border wall, then tries to divert our attention by blaming it on Democrats. He attempts to go toe-to-toe with Chinese maestros of extortion in a diplomatic hostage-taking game to avenge his silly spat with Iran. He has dangerously exacerbated the impacts of climate change by recklessly dismantling environmental regulations to favor outdated energy sources. ISIS and Al-Qaeda have been on the run, now Trump single-handedly, with no domestic or Allied input, has reopened the doors to them in Syria and Afghanistan.
Trump has got away with such insane behavior because of a complacent, Republican-led Congress. Who, outside of the Trump family and a small group of hard-core alt-right supporters benefits from his aberrant actions? Certainly not the popular minority who voted him into office via a compromised election without bothering to analyze his track record. We need to stop tweeting and start writing.
In ordering the arrest of Ms Meng, Mr. Trudeau was doing Trump a huge favour in return for Trump dismissing Trudeau as a "dishonest weakling."
1
Trudeau did not order the arrest. It was the RCMP in response to an American extradition request.
3
@GeoThe request for the arrest of a senior Chinese business executive would have gone to the PMO, particularly since the request was linked to Chinese trading with Iran, a unilateral sanction Canada does not observe.
1
It is depressing to see such an august journal drop the ball with the "no evidence this is anything but enforcement of the Iran sanctions" line.
Canadian journalist Sandy Garossino, in the National Observer,
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/12/20/analysis/canadas-pawn-xi-trump-cyber-game
puts it in a clearer context:
"In the context of wider efforts across the U.S. government, the arrest of a senior executive of a Chinese telecom giant just two hours before Trump and Xi Jinping's trade meeting at the G20 in Buenos Aires looks wholly orchestrated to ruthlessly put the screws to China.
...
U.S. National Security Advisor John Bolton had advance notice of the planned arrest as he sat almost directly opposite China’s lead trade negotiator, Liu He, who is charged with negotiating China’s tech policy.
Yet consider this: There was no need to charge Meng personally. The U.S. DoJ has a well-established practice of charging corporate entities rather than senior executives. This was a deliberate escalation. And the warrant didn't need to be executed in Vancouver. Meng could have been arrested earlier in Hong Kong, or later in Mexico, Argentina, or France. All of them were on her travel itinerary, all have extradition treaties with the U.S, and any would have modulated the G20 fallout.
But the U.S. DoJ made its request of Canada on November 29, the day before the start of the G20. There's no mistaking the significance."
7
@roy brander
Canadian journalist Sandy Garossino, in the National Observer,
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/12/20/analysis/canadas-pawn-xi-trump-cyber-game
[ Excellent account for which I am grateful. The "hostage taking" of Ms. Meng by Canada at the US request was meant as a direct threat to China and was distressing. We cannot control the domestic affairs of China, we cannot control who the Chinese legally trade with. ]
2
I understand the "extradition treaty" between the US and Canada. Extradition treaties are common between nations. But I don't get that the US can have Canada arrest a citizen of neither country, on suspicion of breaking US domestic law. What principle is that based on? Was Ms. Meng on Interpol's wanted list? Was this an arrest outside the function of Interpol?
6
"What's good for national security" that was Trump's excuse for tariffs on Canadian steel and aluminum but he probably didn't remember that or chose not to.
Well I don't think the Canadian detainees are purely innocent. They were involved in and likely gathering sensitive intelligence pertaining to North Korea. I wonder if they are CIA, to be perfectly honest. And although the Canadians and Americans claim Meng's arrest was purely judiciary and by the books, at this level they would have been perfectly aware of the impact the arrest would case. There is something called discretion (e.g., you don't detain the daughter/CFO of China's top technologies company), but they chose to detain her purposefully. Nothing is a coincidence. Trump is purposefully causing chaos and creating chips he can use later, or there is so much divisiveness and backstabbing within his administration, that his China hawks are intentionally hiding information from him and using him as a pawn for their own agenda. China's retaliatory attacks, honestly, are quite measured, and all we can wait for now is a trade of hostages on both sides. While in Canada and the US we have our own judiciary processes, in China they have their own processes. We are abiding by our processes, and they will abide by their own. You cannot honestly think the Chinese will find a court of non-Chinese people to impartially and objectively try Meng. That makes no sense in their mind, especially given the level of subjectivity and political maneuvering behind the scenes. Let's not fool ourselves.
21
@Geoff
Well stated and there is a peculiar quality to Meng’s arrest that dates back to an earlier investigation that Obama’s administration had no interest in prosecuting and the action without presidential clearance given the sensitivity of the issue also strange.
The editorial boards China bashing also unseemly, but not unexpected.
Many are detained under house arrest while investigations continue.
6
@Geoff
Your response, right here, is why the world hates Americans.
21
@Geoff
Got any evidence at all to backup your that they are (part-time) spies. Any evidence at all??
This thing you call "discretion", how does that work? Is the WH working hand in hand with Trudeau? (That would be a miracle). Where does law, international arrest warrants etc etc come into it??
What you have written here Geoff just seems like a completely mad conspiracy theory, based entirely on your own speculation. No one is safe if what you describe has even a grain of truth, (which I doubt).
28
As a Canadian, it is not clear to me why Canada acceded to the US request and made this arrest in the first place. As long as the Trump administration somehow considers Canada a national security threat to the US (which was their rationale for the import tariffs they imposed on our aluminium and steel), I think we should have just told them to go fish.
3
@Tom McAllister
I completely agree. Our PM talks about the "rule of law" but he knows well that China follows no such rule. This was going to be a political issue from day 1 and we should have anticipated China's reaction. If Sheryl Sandberg had been arrested by the Chinese does anyone think this wouldn't have been an international political incident? As for the US since when do they arrest individual members of companies for their company misdeeds. How many US executives are in jail for violations by their companies? Any?
3
In China, the timing of Ms. Meng's arrest, happening as it did at the same moment that Xi Jinping was dining with Trump, reinforces the Chinese belief that it was a calculated attempt to embarrass Xi.
U.S. citizens can easily accept the idea that our Trump was clueless about the arrest since it was not being covered live on Fox News. But Chinese citizens who are accustomed to leaders who are in total control, find Trump's denials implausible.
29
@john
Xi has plenty to be embarrassed about. He is following in the footsteps of dictators such as Mao.
3
@john: Dinner with Trump was the next day. What was happening when the news of the arrest reached the Chinese was G20 negotiations; with Bolton across the table from the lead negotiator, briefed on the when the news would hit, so he could watch the man's face.
https://www.nationalobserver.com/2018/12/20/analysis/canadas-pawn-xi-trump-cyber-game
2
@john
The Chinese have a lot to learn about the United States of America.
1
Over the last decade travelling to China for business and pleasure became more and more common. Almost like travelling to Europe. The random kidnapping and detention of three Canadians by the Chinese government is a stark reminder of what it is like visiting an authoritative regime where you can be kidnapped and detained for no reason at the whim of the state. Travelling to China appears to be as safe as it would be travelling to North Korea.
64
@Trento Cloz
The rules about what's going to get you arrested in North Korea are a lot clearer.
3
@Trento Cloz No quite. I think it's dangerous to be involved in business in China, whether you're Chinese or a foreigner. That's why so many wealthy Chinese invest in American real estate. In the good old US of A, you can get all the justice you can afford. Not always true in China. However I don't think it's any more dangerous to be a tourist in China than to be a tourist in the US.
4
@Trento Cloz
No one - repeat, NONE - is safe while traveling in China.
One CANNOT trust the Chinese!
They, on a whim, can detain ANYONE by creating ANY false charge. They can even detain someone transiting at a Chinese airport.
So, BEWARE of any kind of travel in or even through China!!!
4
Unless China faces sanctions fot its behaviour when it violates international norms while hiding behind its "internal affair" mantra, it will continue to act out. Unlike other "capitalist" countries, there is nothing separating the government, business, and the military - the government pumps money into industry, businesses tow the line and pay up - all CEOs of major corporations are party members - and the proceeds go to support Chinese military and industrial hegemony in NE Asia, SE Asia and Africa - not to mention other places closer to home. As long as the Chinese see no downside risk in behaving like a rogue state, they will continue to treat the rest of the world as they do their own people - with impunity.
81
@expat That gate probably swings two ways.
1
@expat
Could it be you have confused states USA?/China? "Chinese military and industrial hegemony in NE Asia, SE Asia and Africa - not to mention other places closer to home."
2
@expat
Could it be you have confused states USA?China?
"Chinese military and industrial hegemony in NE Asia, SE Asia and Africa - not to mention other places closer to home."
She was picked up in Vancouver at the request of the United States while she was traveling to Mexico from Hong Kong.
Since the war of 1812 to 1814 which ended in stalemate the territories comprising British North America (which became Canada in 1867) had grown accustomed to being treated with respect, if not always fairly, by its mighty neighbour to the south. Over the past two years the Trump administration has seemingly been doing its best to destroy what's taken over two hundred years of our two countries battling common enemies in war and peace to create; an enduring trust and something probably as near as possible to perfect comity between nations. There's much more at stake here than we, the latter day inheritors of a grand alliance that's so enriched our peoples can know. For the sake of our children, let's not blow this.
175
@Leigh Thank you, Leigh. As a Canadian, we are very frustrated with the disrespect shown to us by Trump. The Canadian/American relationship stretches centuries and Trump is destroying it in a matter of years. For over a year, when I go shopping, I look for where something is made. If it says "Made in America" or "Made in the USA" I leave it on the shelf. Sometimes the product costs me a bit more money but I have no desire to spend money to help America. If the next President makes a strong effort to rebuild the Canadian/American relationship, I will purchase American products again.
32
@Christopher You don't buy it if it says "Made in the USA". Well, many if not most consumer goods on Canadian store shelves that are not made in the USA say "Made in China." Are you buying those?
6
A valid point.
I’ve worked with a number of Americans I’ve the last three decades - they have all been good people. I’m still happy to buy American. I would not ever stay at a Trump branded property though.
6
This whole thing happened because Trump rejected the international consensus (including the U.S.) on the Iran nuclear deal, as part of his urge to wreck Obama's legacy - and now Trump wants to impose his policy on China and everyone else.
The Meng case shows that extradition is inherently political, and needs to be reformed. Making it automatic is a formula for disaster. Now the daughter of one of China's leading industrialists has been ripped off - an extreme insult with unknown consequences.
2
Canada is simply complying with its obligations under the Canada/US extradition treaty. Like extradition treaties generally, this treaty simply requires the apprehension & the holding of a hearing before an independent court of competent jurisdiction to determine whether Ms. Meng should be extradited to the US or released. The issues before the court are simply whether there is a prima facie case that Ms. Meng should stand trial in the US for an alleged US offence which is covered by the treaty & whether there are issues recognized in such proceedings generally which make it inappropriate to grant extradition in this case.
The US could withdraw their application for extradition but cannot otherwise intercede in this proceeding in Canada. Canada & Canadians strongly object to actions by both the Trump Administration & China to characterize the proceedings in Canada as simply a pawn in their wider trade dispute.
In particular, we strongly object to (a) Chinese assumptions that they can use Canadian hostages to abort the extradition hearing, & (b) Trump's assertion that the Meng case (& therefore also the continuation of Chinese hostage taking & trade reprisals against Canada) are bound up in the US trade war with China which will drag on for years.
US inappropriate interference in the extradition process & lack of support on the Canadian hostages' issue is deeply resented by Canadians
4
@bob adamson
"US inappropriate interference in the extradition process & lack of support on the Canadian hostages' issue is deeply resented by Canadians."
1. Trump is an idiot. Any perceived interference in this extradition proces is due to Trump's status as an idiot.
2. In any case, what do you want the United States to do to insure the release of Canadian hostages? It is the Chinese that are holding them.
Trump's and Bolton's decision to demand Canada detain and extradite Ms. Meng and use her as a hostage to resolve a trade war started by Trump himself, is one of the most dangerous actions taken by a man and his Administration who are completely dangerously incompetent.
Trump's MAGA campaign is upending the very alliances that protected the world for the last 79 years, fostering Russian and Chinese imperialism and increasing militarism/nationalism throughout the world. These were the very causes that threw the world into World War I.
As Putin just warned, "We are now witnessing the collapse of the international system of nuclear containment" that, in a heartbeat, could "lead to extermination of the whole civilization."
Congress must take charge to protect the United States and the world from a maniacal President whose only goal is feed his ego.
We are in danger - serious danger.
3
Fortunately for our American neighbours, we Canadians are, for the most part, very polite and long accustomed to being collateral damage, if not cannon fodder for the Bully Next Door.
Despite being carelessly bombed by your military in Iraq, patiently acquiescing to your insistence we help by providing troops in your foreign adventures, providing shelter and escape for your diplomats in Iran, and providing a safe haven, shelter, and accommodation for thousands of your citizens on 9/11, we are used to a century or more of being overlooked, taken for granted, ignored, exploited, demeaned, insulted, threatened, patronized, and abused by the country we nonetheless persist in thinking of as our “closest neighbour and best friend.”
Maybe we’re just a nation of masochists who derive some perverse pleasure from being the “bottom” to your “top”, but it’s more likely that we’ve come to accept the fact that having our citizens arrested and imprisoned for something you asked us to do is just another payment towards the endless costs of being that friend.
5
@Norman McDougall
What do you want the United States to do to get your hostages released from China?
1
Speaking about hostages, what about the thousands of children being held in our bastion of freedom? That wrong will stain our National honor forever. Home of the brave and land of the free is gone, not with a bang, but a whimper.
2
the Chinese reaction is unsurprising in that President Trump, the master negotiator, uses mafia tactics like kidnapping to try to force the outcome he wants. I would wish a pox on both their houses if they weren't already so infected they are under quarantine.
1
@[email protected]
Meng won't be sent to the United States if the Canadian court system doesn't think she deserves to be.
As a dual citizen- a Camerican as one of my friends calls it- up until Trump, the alliance between the two countries was so strong that I never experienced any conflict of loyalties. But now with China and the US using Canada as a pinada in their trade war, it's getting harder to see the difference between the American thug and the Chinese thug. Trump is burning bridges that were put in place over a hundred years ago. How long will it take after Trump to rebuild the trust that was there?
7
What's the "real" story? Is there a "real" story behind this yet to come out? Something is quite "hinky" here.
2
We've put Canada in an untenable position by having Ms. Meng arrested in Vancouver. Fortunately, President Trump's comment about bartering Ms. Meng's fate for a trade deal has given Canada an out.
On the one hand, the Canadian courts are bound by treaty to treat the U.S. request as purely judicial.
In reality, though, this request contains both judicial and political components. I have no doubt that the U.S. attorney's request could have been vetoed by the State Department in the national interest. I have little doubt that if John Kerry were still secretary of state, he would have nixed it. But, alas, we have the likes of John Bolton, who reportedly knew about the impending arrest.
Canada has no treaty obligation to comply with an extradition request that's based on both judicial and political considerations. This arrest always was based on both, but Mr. Trump made that glaringly apparent with his comment about trade.
We should withdraw the extradition request, but we probably won't, out of our usual hubris and arrogance. The Canadian court will probably have to honor it, based on the judicial prong. But at that point, it's in Ottawa's hands. Canada should invoke the "political offence exception" (I'm using the Canadian spelling for "offense") doctrine that nullifies an otherwise valid extradition request and return Ms. Meng to China. Mr. Trump opened the door to the invocation of the political offence exception, for which we all can be thankful.
5
This editorial, it seems, misses the main point. The arrest and detention of Meng Wan Zhou was clearly a political act. Trump has made this abundantly clear with his tweet. How many businesses have violated the same sanctions that Huawei has? I'll answer that. Dozens of American companies, including JP Morgan. But they got a fine for their violations. No executive was charged with a crime, let alone detained.
Part of the "rule of law" is equal application of the law. In the Meng case which precipitated the Chinese detentions of Canadians who are in fact violating Chinese laws (of registering as a proper group, or a teacher who had overstayed her work visa), there was clearly an uneven application of the law for political ends. America hasn't exactly been a stellar proponent of equal application of the law as of late. So to lecture the Chinese on this, and involve Canada in a serious diplomatic spat, requires a little more self-reflection.
Moreover, the suggestion that the Canadians are being tortured are a little much in the absence of actual evidence. They have in fact been given consular access. Again, on that front, US captives can't exactly be said to be free of torture themselves. And now you have a president that brags that torture works, and a CIA head who ran the redition and torture program at the CIA. How's that for rule of law?
7
@Paul F
Paul Feng from China, all of your arguments are so transparent. If a 1st person is not 100 percent perfect, then the first person can never find fault with the 2nd. By this logic, USA is no better than China, and by extension no better than Nazi Germany, or Imperial Japan. Many Chinese can recite perfectly from the book “36 ways to Trick people”. You have been a good student of guile, but Americans are not as gullible as you’d like to think.
3
China has done nothing to warrant American or Canadian intolerance. Huawei has done nothing to warrant intolerance. Ms. Meng has done nothing to warrant the horrid Canadian-American arrest and persecution.
The Canadian government has acted awfully.
We honour our agreements, unlike another nation in North America. In Canada we try to adhere to the rules, do no harm and love your neighbour. And humility.
You should listen to us in Canada. We are the example of a mixed economy that works. Hopefully we can keep it out of the hands of U. S. want to be’s like Doug Ford and Stephen Harper.
19
And we're expected to believe trump when he says "No collusion with Russia" when he perfectly OK using innocent people as hostages for a trade deal in a dispute of his own making? God, please save us from this crazy person.
11
Relax folks, enjoy the season. This is all for not as the Chinese gov. is well on its way to world conquest in WW III via A.I. Throw away your smart phones before it is too late!
Might not be a big deal. but the Chinese do not realize they have become less popular than Trump across Canada and that is not easy.
11
Canada and Canadian citizens will pay a very large penalty for fulfilling it's expedition treaty with the US. This will no doubt impact our trade with China that many Canadians depend on. All this at a time when the Trump administration shows no respect for its own agreements such as the Iranian nuclear pact and calling Canada a threat to American security in order to tarref our steel and aluminum.
Many of us are loosing faith in our friends and neighbours to do the right thing.
11
We would do well to wean ourselves of dependence on trade with China.
1
Still not clear to me why a foreign national would have to abide by a U.S. sanctions decree, or be held as a criminal for not respecting those sanctions. I do think she is being held as a hostage to Trump's trade war.
7
Thanks to the NYT for highlighting this case. In the new geopolitical environment Canada finds itself very much alone in the face of these sorts of unreasonable actions, such as the retaliation by Saudi Arabis for the Canadian Foreign Ministers remarks on human rights, and now this action by China.
However I can see the Chinese point of view. The Chinese have been taking Western hostages in business disputes for some time now. Since their own legal system is so corrupt and easily abused for political purposes they must project these same failings on to other countries and assume their legal systems are equally corrupt. Trump validates that belief in China's eyes, and betrays a lot about his own faith in the US legal system, when he suggests that he could interfere politically to free Meng.
6
"Global Times, a newspaper aligned with the Chinese Communist Party, said that the impasse could be resolved quickly by Canada’s dropping all charges against Ms. Meng."
Sorry, your editorial is factually wrong. The linked GT article didn't say anything about Canada dropping its charges against Ms. Meng, and indeed there aren't any. It is the United States, not Canada, that has charged her with criminal acts. Canada has detained her at the request of the United States and will extradite her to face those charges if a court finds sufficient basis for them, and if the Federal government then makes a political decision to do so.
10
@HoBro
and if the Federal government then makes a political decision to do so.
NOT POSSIBLE. The govt. has no ability to intervene in a legal decision made by the court. We are obligated to see this through as the extradition agreement we have with the U.S. is legal and binding.
2
@ Prairietwig
You are incorrect. The Minister of Justice must approve all extradition requests, so it is possible for the federal government to intervene.
Speaking as a Canadian citizen, I would like to see the US administration or State Department confirm that the arrest warrant against this Chinese business executive is further to a genuine legal proceeding, and is not going to be used as a bargaining chip in President Trump's trade war.
Canada has acted in good faith in executing this arrest warrant, and is now paying a price in the form of the detention of Canadians by the Chinese thug regime. Trump's outrageous comment only adds to the sense among many Canadians that the United States is no longer a reliable ally or partner.
72
@Grouch
"Trump's outrageous comment only adds to the sense among many Canadians that the United States is no longer a reliable ally or partner."
Trump is not. That should be clear as day by now.
3
@Grouch, Then perhaps China is a better ally or partner? Trump is temporary. China is forever.
2
@John
The question for Canada (and all nations generally) is whether the US & China as they each currently face the world (i.e. without allies, enduring principles or interests but only case by case transactions that exigencies of the moment suggest must be 'won') will rejoin the international community of sovereign nations bound together by the rule of law & international institutions designed to protect the rule of law between nations.
6
"Global Times, a newspaper aligned with the Chinese Communist Party, said that the impasse could be resolved quickly by Canada’s dropping all charges against Ms. Meng. “It is quite simple to end the crisis between China and Canada by giving back Meng’s complete freedom,” the newspaper wrote, most likely echoing the views of top officials."
.
This is simply nonsense as a matter of law.
.
Canada hasn't charged Ms. Meng with anything, and so there are no "charges" for Canada to drop.
.
The current arrest came as the result of legal enforcement by treaty. Canada is obliged to take these actions, by law. Canada's politicians have no say in the matter, at least not at this stage.
.
China does not get that in countries governed by the Rule of Law, politicians are not able to do what it wants.
.
For now, this is up to the courts now, not the government.
6
@Richard Blaine
Funny, when a foreign publication expresses an opinion other, than 'ours' it must be 'aligned with the Communist Party' or 'close to the Kremlin' or 'state-controlled' etc. That's ridiculous.
@waldo
Are you suggesting that China has free and independent journalism?
And where have you been, that you think such a thing?
2
If Ms. Meng was arrested in Canada at the request of the United States, why does China not arrest U.S. citizens in China in its "tit for tat" posture? Is it because Canada is an easier target? Also, if Canada supported implementation of U.S. policies in this trade war, why does U.S. not defend Canada by immediately arresting a few Chinese citizens in the United States? Why must three (presumed) innocent Canadians suffer Chinese jail cells? Is that because despite all their supposed power, both China and the U.S. are cowardly countries afraid to confront each other directly? Or is it better to let Canada suffer in the interest of avoiding bigger shocks to the international trade and financial systems?
29
@Global Villager
They probably picked up a few Yanks as well, but keeping it quiet.
1
@Global Villager
It might be "better to let Canada suffer," but as a Canadian, I can assure you that nobody here thinks that it is one bit fair to do so.
3
@Global Villager
'if Canada supported implementation of U.S. policies in this trade war [they don't,bub], why does U.S. not defend Canada by immediately arresting a few Chinese citizens in the United States?'
Arresting people for no reason is actually rare in the good old USA and nonexistent for people with money.
1
China is pretty clearly the enemy of the west. And the fact we help finance their repressive dictatorship through trade where they don’t even pretend to play by the rules is on us. It is about time the west realizes there are worse problems than paying more for IPhones. Also the number of obvious Chinese bots in this discussion is amazing.
9
@Todd
They also hold trillions and trillions of the US Federal debt. Push them too far and they migt just call the loan (dump US Treasury bills). Just imagine, whet happens then.
@waldo
Then the value of those holdings drop. (They’ve just shot themselves in the foot.)
Then the value of the US dollar drops and the cost of Chinese imports goes up more.
(That’s another bullet in the foot.)
1
It was as inevitable as Christmas coming on Dec. 25th, that as soon as Meng was charged and jailed in Canada (to honor the joint extradition treaty between Canada and the US) that China would jail people in response also. Tit-for-tat. Safer to incarcerate Canadians than Americans, as impetuous Trump might do something rash.
China will not bow to international verbal 'pressure' as they would then; 'lose face'. Very important in Asian culture.
Only a behind the scenes prisoner swap would work. But Canada's hands are tied to the extradition agreement, so it would have to be Trump that made a deal. And what does he care about some Canadians?
8
Face it: the rest of the world believes that America is undermining the international order with its extra-judicial "justice". No country that allowed American financial institutions to do business on their territory intended that to be a license for American political mingling.
So for people are shocked by this reaction China: be prepared, it will get much worse. The rest of the world is fed up with your behavior.
7
@Wim Roffel, And China always plays so nice? Beware of China too.
1
Speaking as a Canadian, Canada should have known better than to get involved with US problems. With the "stable genius" in the white house, Canada is putting themselves in sever jeopardy. Do not trust the US and the "stable genius". We are better off distancing ourselves from the unstable US at this time.
8
"China’s legal system is opaque and weighted overwhelmingly in favor of the government and against the ordinary people who get caught up in it."
This seems to be exactly the type of legal system Trump and his cult favor imposing on the US.
5
The worst case scenario: Ms. Meng were sent to US jail and Mr. Korvig & Mr. Spavor to Chinese jail. Both China and Canada lose and US wins in this case. China is trying to tell Canada that the ultimate hostage consequence and the damages to Canada-China relationship are not good. Rule of Law is viable to tell its own Canadian citizens for domestic use, and not to Chinese citizens who think otherwise. Jeffrey Sachs, a fabulous economist, commented on this case that Ms. Meng's arrest is unprecedented. Even in the 2008 financial crisis, no CEO or CFO of any major bank has been seized for questioning, not to mention put in jail. Hopefully, Canada will have a clear mind and determination to decide what is he best for Canada in this tit-for-tat hostage situation.
3
@Usok
Listen fella', for the last time (ya right) get it straight: The Government of a democracy and the Judiciary are separate entities; they operate on their own, autonomously, unlike in a dictatorship such yours. Don't ever think we will become like you.
2
"Three Canadian citizens being detained by China appear to have become pawns in a political impasse between the two countries and, by extension, the United States."
Our three Canadians are pawns between two countries: China and the US...not the US "by extension".
Why didn't you pick her up in the US?
Canada once more paying "grave consequences" (as China has threatened us with and is acting on) on account of this Administration. And no, I have zero faith that this arrest and your trade war with China are unconnected.
4
If I may.
Canada's foreign policy has always been dictated by one consideration: how to please our neighbour to the South - with the notable exception of Pierre Trudeau, who had the courage, the intellectual ability and the political savvy to stand up to the Americans' every whim.
The entire anti-Huawei hysteria is ridiculous. The real reason behind it (and anything else related to China) is the fear of losing the hi-tech war.
As for the 'Canadian hostages' - well the government should have thought this through first and not act reflexively.
Canada should not be part of the US' anti-Iran crusade. Period.
48
@waldo
I don't believe that we acted "reflexively," but rather because we have an extradition treaty with the U.S. I do wish we had quietly mentioned to Ms. Weng not to land in Vancouver, but rather seek another destination. It might have been a slightly irregular solution, but, in the long run, a lot less of a problem.
14
@Marilyn
Yes and I hope the independent judge will refuse to extradite Mrs Meng to the US where she could languish in a US jail for months if not years. I agree with those commenters that this is really a gambit to repress Huawei and damage Canada China trade. The editorial also points out how unusual it is to charge a senior executive and daughter of the founder of Huawei. Canada should never have followed our protocol rather someone Chinese or Canadian should have told Meng to avoid countries with traits with the US.
8
Here's one more notable exception - we did not join in attacking Iraq. I was very proud of Prime Minister Jean Chretians decision not to join that unnecessary war.
8
Funny that China didn’t arrest American citizens since it was the USA’s suspicious request for Mrs. Meng’s arrest that started this whole mess. Let’s go for the weaker link in the chain, Canada. Arresting Americans would be too dangerous.
Let’s hope Canada retaliates by not buying ‘more’ Huawei G5 equipment:
Huawei’s radio equipment is used by Canada’s three largest telecom companies, it spends millions to conduct research in partnership with 10 universities and it employs more than 700 people at Huawei Canada, more than half of whom work in research and development. It has even partnered with BCE Inc. and Telus Corp. to test 5G technologies for the next-generation networks needed for real-time applications such as self-driving cars.
And of course, those three telecom companies and the universities stay quiet. Business as usual. All companies throughout the world are the same, they are only protecting their own interests.
Deplorable!
6
@Norman H: the really funny thing is that most Canadians (including myself) are inclined to blame the American government as much, or more, than the Chinese for the whole situation. Any "retaliation" is going to come not against Chinese electronics, but in an intensification of our ongoing boycott against America goods and travel in the United States. That's just human nature. It stings a lot more when a "friend" turns on you, as opposed to behaviour expected from an avowed adversary.
Frankly, I would have thought this impossible in 2015 -- that Canadians would take China's side in a dispute with the United States. But President Trump has managed to tank what had been a happy and productive relationship, dating back at least 70 years, in less than two.
4
China is not scared of Iran. Iran's frightening the US doesn't bother it in the least. You might even suppose that China delights in doing business with Iran if it upsets the US government. Besides, there's money in it.
Believing (correctly, in my view) that Iran is very dangerous, the US presumably felt dared by China to do something. Predictably, they did.
They requested Ms. Meng's arrest.
Canada has a treaty with the US. Canada respects its treaty obligations. Thus, China's quarrel is with the US, not Canada.
If they want Ms. Meng's release to be achieved with counter-arrests, they ought to try arresting Americans in China. Do they dare? Predictably, no.
3
"Three Canadian citizens being detained by China .. should be released immediately"?
Why?
Canada has long been involved in anti-China activities like espionage, sabotage, anti-government agitation and, of course, media calumny.
The West supports thousands of such foreign agents in China and two of the arrested Canadians fit the familiar profile for such agents. And the Chinese law that applies to such people, when convicted, is every bit as severe as our laws that cover undeclared paid agents of hostile foreign powers. Odds are that's what they are.
@godfree
Have any examples?
Dr. Norman Bethune perhaps?
If the arrest of Huawei CFO were truly related to the sanctions, why haven’t any US bank executives faced jail times for much worse crimes, including on charges of terror financing? It’s clear to anyone who is not looking at it with jaundiced eyes ( our government good theirs bad) that both sets of arrests are geopolitical actions. When elephants fight it’s the grass gets trampled. I feel for poor Canadians who ended up taking a hit from rogue superpowers’ actions.
5
When President Trump says he will intervene in legal matters he makes USA the equal of other banana republics where “leaders” do as they please like they are an absolute ruler, a king perhaps.
President Trump should be careful with such statements as it makes Canada complicit in his plans, whereas our PM has clearly said he has no power to interfere in legal matters.
3
Canada made a big mistake arresting Ms. Meng. This was time for either a bit of incompetence at the airport - we lost her - or for a quiet leaked warning that it might be best to stay out of Canada for a while.
Instead, we find ourselves in a very difficult position where we assuming the cost for defending the extraterritorial scope of US law. Extraterritorial legality of US law is something with which most Canadians do not agree.
8
It should go without saying BUT it bears repeating: Trump is out of his depth!
If Huawei did indeed maneuver to violate sanctions then we and our allies should not do business with Huawei and Ms. Meng should be deported and NOT be granted visas to travel to allied countries.
Get the (likely) innocent Canadians released and then start working hard to disengage from trade with Xi's China.
Let the Chinese trade with Russia, etc.
1
The American gov dragged Canada into this as a way to give a sheen of legitimacy to an arguably political arrest. However, the article is wrong. The two Canadian males were arrested after Ms. Meng as retaliation, with the first arrest coming almost immediately. The second arrest came after Trump all but confirmed that this was a politically motivated arrest in the US end when he said he would have her released if the US secured a favourable trade deal with Beijing. The female who was arrested is an unrelated matter.
It’s this kind of stuff from Trump that is really starting to ruin the relationship between the United States and Canada. His thoughtless comments are putting citizens of other countries at risk. Two Canadians may be being tortured right now because The Donald can’t just shut up. Of course this comes after he threatened Canada’s economy during NAFTA negotiations and belittled the PM on the world stage after the G7. Why would Canada want an ally like that? They certainly aren’t friends. Guess the saying is true. With friends like the Trump led United States, who needs enemies?
9
They are communists what do you expect?
Did anyone seriously think that giving them the power we worked so hard to stop the Russians from gaining was going to result in some other outcome than the one we feared would have come out of a USSR with an economy to rival our own?
They are going to do everything we feared they or the Soviets would do if they had the ability to.
Thanks republicans and vulture capitalists who destroyed our manufacturing base so they could ship it over to China and create this situation.
4
@magicisnotreal....Thanks for letting China into the WTO Bill Clinton and GWB... How about Clinton selling China technology to launch missiles in space . There is a lot of blame to go around but now we know China in no way to play fair with trade. Trade has to be built on trust that both sides will agree to abide by the rules ... If I have to pay extra for stuff made in the US or countries that respect the rule of law. I suggest the world cut their strings to China...There is no win for anyone beside China so lets just move on and work with other countries for Fair Trade...
2
What you're really seeing is the rise of a new Cold War.
Canada and China are having free trade talks, and the United States just scored a point against them in the new NAFTA negotiation. The United States and China are sparring over territory in the China Sea and trade deals. China and Russia are side-eyeing each other, wondering how much they can move up in the world.
When the Americans issued the Huawei warrant, it was back in August. Meng decided to travel - via Canada - on the same day that Donald Trump and Xi Jinping met in Argentina. It was no coincidence and no accident.
China made a call. Their call was that, when push came to shove, the United States would not back Canada up once China started pushing their weight around. And the United States hasn't. Whatever Pompeo has said, Trump has undone. We needed the UK and the EU to act before the US would, and that's for actions that we've taken on the American's behalf!
It's not about "oh no, they're going to kidnap people!" No. It's about what happens when other up-and-coming superpowers no longer respect the United States or the countries under American protection. The bubble is gone.
That means no more automatic respect, no more stepping back, no more people doing things in fear or in awe of the Stars and Stripes. It means playing on a very even field, and always making sure you have a friend at your back. Canada, I mean, not you guys. With friends like you, who needs enemies?
1
I don't know why we continue to act in the interests of this American government. They care nothing for ours. Let her go, and let these two adversaries sort this one out themselves. Canada first.
7
"China told the US side that it would take further steps based on Washington’s response but fell short of warning “grave consequences” as it did to Canada."
No one threatens Canada or the United States. China out. And God bless President Trump. We're having a China-free Christmas this year. If it says 'Made in China', in to the trash it goes, after being pummeled to smithereens. Feels great.
America First.
1
@T: Interesting. But you should change your statement to "No one threatens Canada -- except the United States." In any event, exactly the same thing is going on under the Christmas tree here in Canada. Just change the phrase to "Made in America". And after the last year of threats, insults and bullying inflicted on us by our American "friends" -- well that feels great too!
A more astute Prime Minister would have found a secure means of telling Ms Meng to avoid the flight to Vancouver.
I don't trust the Chinese government or Huawei, but there was no need to be a pawn,
4
It was not that long Canadians put their own lives at risk to free US hostages in Iran. Today Canadians are held by China in revenge for their government making an arrest at the US’s request and no response from the US - what’s the saying - with friends like these....
5
The businessfolk "were reportedly being investigated over “activities that endanger China’s national security.” National Security? The Chinese are laughing in Trump's face, after he used "national security" as a reason for his steel tariffs. Please, everyone, see the problem for what it is -- Trump. Had he not trumped up ('xcuse the pun) such a ridiculous excuse in the first place, this wouldn't be happening. The sixth-grader is a debit against the good name of the US on the world stage. And with all things Trump, bankruptcy is just around the corner.
J
5
Canada is following the law and adhering to it's treaty obligation with the United States. I think the DOJ has issued the extradition request in good faith and without interference from the dummy POTUS. I'm confident if that proves false, the Canadian justice system will do it's job and free Ms Meng from her "prison", which happens to be a luxury Vancouver property owned by her family.
On the other hand, nobdy has faith in Chinese "justice". To suggest the 2 Canadians detained were spying is ludicrous and I doubt the conditions of detainment are as pleasant.
By the way, many people posting messages on this article don't appear to be real (hello "Nancy", "Geoff" and others)
3
Detaining foreign CEOs is unnecessary. Trump needs to stay out of this affair and his handlers, if there are any left, need to kill his ability to do interviews and use Twitter. He embarrasses and hurts the US whenever he says anything. He is the crazy uncle you don’t want to talk at Christmas, yet never shuts up.
The fact that the GOP controlled House has not impeached Trump is proof that it is run by right wing extremists that have little knowledge of actual evidence-based policy. An uneducated and naive population in gerrymandered districts elected these fear mongers. What is really scary is that there are some GOP politicians who actually believe the junk that comes from their mouths.
Trump is exactly the person impeachment was meant for. The Founding Fathers created ways for intelligent government officials to check the excesses of the public vote. Impeachment is one of those ways. The electoral college was also one of those methods, yet it has been skewed and now empowers right wing uneducated America. The electors don’t do their jobs as the Founders envisioned.
Trump has made the US a bastion of uneducated insanity and the world a more dangerous place. I am baffled everyday by his latest positions. I thought the US could go no lower than invading Iraq in 2003, but now I am not so sure. I am totally disgusted by his reliance and submission to a news agency, FOX, that drives extremism, racism, and hate in order to make advertising dollars.
7
So let me understand this. Canada obliged the US and arrested the Chinese businesswoman because we have an extradition treaty with the US. The Chinese have taken three Canadians hostage in retaliation. Trump with his usual insight now says he might allow the accused Chinese citizen to be released for an advantageous trade deal between the US and China. Never mind that Canada and her citizens are caught in this mess.
Treaties and agreements with the US are not worth the paper they are written on so long as Trump is POTUS. He has no regard for anyone but himself and no country but the US. He trashes relationships with allies and admires despots and dictators. Maybe he really is Putin's puppet. Who knows how much money he owes Russian oligarchs and how much he has laundered for them? Who knows what dirty business deals he has made with them? I have a feeling that Robert Mueller knows and the rest of us will when his report is released. I have no doubt of the dishonesty, malfeasance, chicanery, self-dealing and conflicts of interest and criminal activity of Trump and his interests. If he is not fit to have and run a charitable foundation, how is he fit to be POTUS?
5
Thank you NYT for standing up for Canada, something which Trump apparently won't do. When the Saudis ceased trade with Canada because the foreign minister criticized their human rights violations, the silence was deafening from the Trump administration and most media outlets. The feeling in Canada right now is "I guess we're on our own." Trump was rude and insulting to the Canadian foreign minister during the USMCA negotiations. Please somebody give Trump a history lesson on what Canada did in the Second World War as an example. Oh I forgot you can't give him a lesson about anything, because he doesn't listen and acts only on the impulse of the moment, or on what is preached at him by a few right wing conservation nut jobs.
8
These three Canadians should blame the Trudeau government for their plight. By arresting Ms. Meng it acted like a satellite of the USA rather than like a self-respecting independent country.
4
@Garth Stevenson: Unfortunately Canada (unlike another certain nearby country) respects its' treaty obligations to its' friends and allies. Honour, along with the rule of law, demanded that we act on the American request.
That said, I would be surprised if Ms. Meng is actually extradited. My understanding of the American accusations, along with Canadian extradition law, leads me to think that the Trump administration's case is actually pretty weak.
I am so confused!
the Chinese, the Russians, North Koreans and Iranians have perpetrated all sorts of hacking to our systems (Europe too) and yet I have not heard anything of significance that has been done to retaliate against all the transgressions by those countries.
Yes, maybe a few sanctions against Russian Oligarchs and businesses, but overall I have not heard of any actions that our government has taken to let the Russians, Chinese, North Koreans and Iranians know unequivocally that the FREE WORLD will NOT tolerate ANY transgression against our countries.
Why doesn't the US stop giving the Chinese, et. al, OUR technology and start punishing them for ALL the stolen know-how they've taken?
We know that the Chinese and Russians want to be the strongest powers of the world but the free world has NOT done anything to stop them. Both continue to expand and claim territories: land (Crimea) and sea (Spratly Islands) and yet not REPERCUSSIONS! How do we expect the aggressors/invaders to stop if NOTHING is done to stop them?
Come on FREE WORLD do something before it's too late!!!
2
There is no doubt that "...United States is using the businesswoman, Meng Wanzhou, the chief financial officer of the giant Chinese technology company Huawei, as a hostage..."
It's tiring to hear the often repeated fig leaf "the rule of law" from both American and Canadian politicians & media. What law? Law dictated by USA! Playing by the rule to Americans means play by American rule. The world has changed.
Canadian politicians are inept and could not see the broad implication of aiding USA to kidnap the Chinese woman at the airport, threw her in jail for more than a week. John Manley, former Canadian foreign minister was right to call out the current Canadian leaders.
It's becoming clear that China will not play by USA's one-sided rules. Neither should Canada. Canada must find a way to release the Huawei CFO soon and get our Canadians back.
1
You take a risk travelling to China. Like North Korea, a tourist is free at the Governments whim, and can be picked up at any time without charge, or fabricated charges. Both Canadian and US citizens should think long and hard before travelling to China.
2
Trump's crude gangster like thought processes are always shortsighted and crudely transactional . He simply wants to be able to boasts that he brokered "the largest trade deal ever made" and that China yielded to his pressure and self assessed deal making prowess. As usual it is all about him.
One trait all despots share is that not only do they reject our principles but they think we don’t really believe in them either. All our talk about democracy, human rights and rule of law is a hypocritical facade. This is a prominent theme of their propaganda and the fundamental postulate of whataboutism. They are convinced that deep down, we’re as brutal, cynical and transactional as they are. Nobody believes anything, really. It makes them sound like a Hollywood villain telling the hero “You and I are the same!” Yet they have to think this, since if they believed we did have a fundamentally different view of politics, it would be a threat. Their people might prefer our way of thinking, which would be the worst thing For them.
So when Canada arrests a Chinese national, it’s logical for China to arrest a Canadian in response. Better to arrest two or three in fact, so as not to give the impression one Chinese big shot is equal in weight to one Canadian you’ve probably never heard of. The stated reasons for the arrest are not important. That Meng Wanzhou might have violated some law in the US is nothing, they think. She’s just a pawn in a larger struggle between their two countries. Likewise it doesn’t matter what thE three Canadians are charged with. That’s Beijing’s way of saying they think our legal concerns are bogus, and Canada is just serving its master in Washington. It’s strictly tit for tat, and hostage swapping is something Machiavelli could have told you about.
2
Do you remember when the very powerful woman GuKuLai murdered Britisher Neil Heywood? China had a fake trial and sentencing with first 1 then another obvious phony GuKuLai standing in for her! What did UK do? Nothing. China is shameless and there is no rule of law, never has been, and never will be in our lifetimes. The HuaWei CFO might escape from Canada that way. China takes hostages when its state-sponsored criminals are arrested, but when do other Nations ever treat China as China treats them? Never. “There have been millions and millions of Chinese Americans but zero American Chinese” says Chinese author Eric Liu of Harvard. 0. The same can be said of Canada. Why do these countries even let these people in when their own are treated so horribly? Chinese recently killed their 1st Nobel Peace Prize Winner. German did the same in 1935. Wake up people. You are dealing with a country very similar to Germany or Japan of the 1930s. For we who have lived and worked in China, it is all obvious. One thing Trump has done right, maybe the only thing, is to stand up to China. Obama had good intentions. TPP was a joke because China simply blockaded the ocean by which TPP countries ship goods. Letting China join the WTO was like sending the guards home and handing out machine guns at the home for the criminally insane on Christmas Day.
2
MAAA - Make American Alone Again
Much appreciated that the NY Times has addressed this in an editorial. Meaningful US government response long overdue.
Accepting for the moment that the request for Ms. Meng Wang's arrest and the extradition proceedings are consistent with the rule of law, there are two villians here and neither one is Canada.
First the President of the USA. As the Times and others have pointed out, Mr. Trump's suggestion of using her arrest as leverage in a trade deal is an outrageous violation of 'rule of law' principles, all too consistent with his approach to weaponizing 'law' more generally.
Second, China. Meng Wang's arrest was at the request of the US, and Canada is acting within the law and honouring its extradition agreement with the US. The Chinese might direct their wrath at Canada but they too know this. So, while their beef is with the US, their retaliation, directed against Canada, is essentially gutless. They know who initiated things, but are afraid to confront the initiator and have opted to pick on a safer 'middle power'. Canada, and more particularly the three Canadians detained, are little more than a proxy for Chinese retaliation against the US.
As the beneficiary of this conflict, the US owes it to its 'rule of law' partner to be far more aggressive in its demands that the Canadians be released. The less the US does, in this regard, the more it suggests, troublingly, that this whole arrest/extradition initiative was leveraging on the part of the US.
6
A law that makes one criminal for mere use of USD, mere use of SWIFT, mere use of email that passes through a USA server is not a law worth respecting.
A law that unilaterally imposes sanctions on Iran but protests Saudi Arabia despite the brutalities in Yemen is not worth respecting.
If Canada surrenders its sovereignty to the USA by unquestionably arresting and handing over USA-designated criminals (actually innocent), China must retaliate. It’s her moral obligation that she owes to her country and the world b
5
@AA you should read the jaw instead of repeating Iranian propaganda.
And, you're hypocrisy is rich, considering that Iran is the aggressor in Yemen.
President Trump's comments are shocking! In what way is this different from the behavior of China?
1
Forcing third parties to support one's own position in a dispute with a second party is truly obnoxious human misbehavior.
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These consular issues are best resolved by diplomacy, as Prime Minister Trudeau's government is pursuing, not by bellicose grandstanding by third-country ignoramuses.
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For a country with supposedly thousands of years of Confucian wisdom, the Chinese government is acting infantile. That they have not locked up every Chinese national within their borders speaks well of Canada’s stable temperament.
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We are talking about a country that currently has at least 1 million Muslims in concentration camps for no reason OTHER than their faith. China is also arresting thousands of Christians en masse and destroying churches.
This is the same country that was (and still is, according to many reports) harvesting the organs of thousands of prisoners.
In 1989, China's communist regime murdered anywhere from hundreds to thousands of its own citizens for the "crime" of demanding a more representative government.
Xi Jinping, the country's president, has declared himself leader for life and has demanded the army pledge allegiance not to the nation, but instead to the COMMUNIST PARTY and himself.
Xi ordered the building of artificial islands in the South China Sea, and then to President Obama's face said China wouldn't militarize them. That was a lie.
Now, in following the traditions of the worst criminal organizations, China is arresting innocent Canadians and holding them as hostages. (BTW, rumors are rife in Canada's Chinese population that at least 200+ Canadians of Chinese origin are also being detained...keeping in mind that China doesn't recognize dual citizens.)
It is time the world woke up to what's going on here.
The same script played in the 1930's and it eventually led to the Second World War. We are headed in the SAME DIRECTION right now...
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Very much appreciate the NYT raising this issue on behalf of a nation that will always be governed by the rule of parliamentary law rather than tyrannical depots, dictators and thugs.
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Meng Wanzhou Has two homes in Vancouver so why the sudden interest in her? Seems that Trump is out to give Canada are hard time and they obediently did as requested - and are paying the penalty. A piece of advice - don’t touch Trump with a ten foot pole!!!
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In what world does the US have the right to arrest non-US citizens for actions in their own countries that only violate US rules? Ridiculous.
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It was not very intelligent of the Canadian authorities to do the U.S. dirty work for them.
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Hackers have to be smarter than the hacked. What a sad admission by the Trumpistas. I guess they really do need to MAGA if they can. After 2 years it appears they have to kidnap and harass because their technical ability to prevent a breach of security is inferior. The Emperor has no clothes.
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Medieval times, with fiefdoms, hostages and skirmishes.
Sad.
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Trump and his supporters are the worst thing to happen to US-Canada relations in over 100 years. He, and they, are both despised in Canada.
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So Canada steps in and detains a Chinese executive for the US.... and China retaliates by detaining 3 of our Citizens...
You would expect The US to support Canada for stepping in to detain the Chinese executive instead Trump uses Canada like a pon with no outward support ....
Canada will just let her go and not extradite her, get our people back safe, and remember how we were left high and dry by the Trump administration ....
Trump only values thugs like the Saudis. Russia and North Korea.... Because that's exactly what he wants to be.
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@Nothernobserver
Actually, Canada is simply complying with its obligations under the Canada/US extradition treaty. Like extradition treaties generally, this treaty simply requires the apprehension & the holding of a hearing before an independent court of competent jurisdiction to determine whether Ms. Meng should be extradited to the US or released. The issues before the court are simply whether there is a prima facie case that Ms. Meng should stand trial in the US for an alleged US offence which is covered by the treaty & whether there are issues recognized in such proceedings generally which make it inappropriate to grant extradition in this case.
The US could withdraw their application for extradition but cannot otherwise intercede in this proceeding in Canada. Canada & Canadians strongly object to actions by both the Trump Administration & China to characterize the proceedings in Canada as simply a pawn in their wider trade dispute.
In particular, we strongly object to (a) Chinese assumptions that they can use Canadian hostages to abort the extradition hearing, & (b) Trump's assertion that the Meng case (& therefore also the continuation of Chinese hostage taking & trade reprisals against Canada) are bound up in the US trade war with China which will drag on for years.
US inappropriate interference in the extradition process & lack of support on the Canadian hostages' issue is deeply resented by Canadians
6
Power in the hands of people like Trump is dangerous.
His willingness to intervene in things he shouldn't is alarming.
His intervention, mentioned via a tweet, in the case of Major Golsteyn who has been charged in a killing, according a NY Time story, used, "verbatim, language aired just minutes before by his favorite program, 'Fox & Friends.'”
A headline in NY Post about the Chinese businesswoman arrested in Canada said this: "How arrest of Chinese ‘princess’ exposes regime’s world domination plot"
NY Post is another one of Murdoch's media outlets that Trump follows. Whether he has read that story or how it will affect his thinking is anybody's guess.
After all, there is a government shutdown because Trump was influenced by things said on "Fox & Friends.”
1
I have seen more Huawei ads this week than I saw the entire time before this week. China and the USA have both condemned Canada for its stance of human and workers rights in our trade agreements. This week President Obrador promised Central Americans refuge in Mexico until the chaos in Honduras, El Salvador, and Guatemala is cleaned up and suggested China will help do the cleaning up. China knew our treaty obligations to the USA and knows our justice system is about justice not law. Canadian Courts will not send Ms Meng to the USA and Trump's Justice Department. Canadian jurists are not going to send Ms Meng to country that shuts down a major segments of government over some idiot wanting a concrete and steel wall to stop illegal immigration.
I trust neither America nor China.
I know is Mexico has already created a wall that is more effective than any wall the USA can build with steel and concrete. Life is better in Mexico than in the USA for illegal aliens and more than likely legal aliens as well and Mexico keeps getting better. More people are moving from the USA to Mexico than Mexicans are coming to the USA.
I'm wondering if Huawei smart phones are really really smart and this is all about technology. I wonder whether this is really about in a world where people where people live on their Iphones this is about buying thru Alibaba instead of Amazon.
4
It is about Iran. Trump ordered a global quarantine of Iran to get it to give up its ballistic missile development programs. Huawei had committed to sell cellphones to Iran under the nuclear weapons agreement Trump abrogated, and it intends to deliver.
@Steve Bolger
I beg to differ. This is all about or aboot Canada.
We are an enemy of both China and the USA because Four years ago when first elected the Trudeau government made ethics and values the prime directive. China at that time condemned us. At the Asia Summit The Philippines condemned us because how they treat their people was their business and we were interfering in their sovereignty, Duterte minced no words in telling us he had the support of the USA. In May The Guardian told us we stood alone. I am sorry I cannot explain how different our legal system is but it is there to bring about justice and that is what is under attack by China and the USA. This song isn't about you it is about truth, justice and the Canadian way.
As an American living in China, on this Christmas Eve, after a disastrous month in the market, after Trump truly spinning into a tailspin, with a monumentally stupid trade war in the offing, I am moved to quote one Rodney King:
Can't we all just get along?
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We can’t complain
They’re just returning the favor
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This is about coercing China to follow Trump's Iran policies, editors. You are missing the real point of all of this.
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China is truly an evil empire. They flaunt international sanctions, the continuously steal IP from inventors, and when somebody dares to complain, they grab hostages.
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When you inherit $250,000,000 you can pretty live by your own rules and make up ones that suit you as you go along. Hats off to the dopes in Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, who didn't inherit $250,000,000 and have to live by Trump's rules.
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Chinese Canadian Collusion
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@setring
Seriously? Tell that to three of our citizens sitting in jail.
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@Jaimie: I'm pretty sure the comment was meant to be sarcastic.
“...China, already an aggressive rising power known to flout the rule of law and disregard human rights, now seems to be using hostage-taking to resolve economic and diplomatic disputes....”
“...America, already an aggressive power known to flout the rule of law and disregard human rights, now seems to be using hostage-taking to resolve economic and diplomatic disputes...”
Fixed it for you
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@RoyTyrell
.... Canada, still a "friend" to both and paying for it.
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I find the NYT taking sides in this trade war. To be sure it isn’t an ideological war, ie, democracy versus communism.
China has camps for Uighurs. US has camps for immigrants and children from Central America. 6 of one, half dozen of another!
And for the record, this isn’t the first time US policy has gone haywire.
NYT is protecting the American way...period!
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@M: you miss the point. The real question is, why was it necessary for Trump to throw Canada under the bus (again) in pursuing his trade agenda?
1
Hypocrisy, thine name is America
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Umm.... one usually reaps what one sow, just sayin'
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Goose... meet gander...
3
Thank-you for comments.
Canada is keeping "rule of law" in this case. Any such case is note worthy and important. The problem is we need more "rule of law" applications in Canada, USA, etc..At the same time we need more learning and examples of rules being a guide.
Rules are made for us and not we for the rules. That is, independent judiciary is vital not only for "intent" but for something called "humanity".
It is to be always remembered that every new rule came from someone braking an old rule that was not good enough for our sense of morals. We cannot come up with morals from the legal system nor from the political system as such. Morals come from us as human beings living and working together. Christmas is about this latter. Christmas is first about remembering our frail humanity and only second about the business of materialism including entertainment. Just saying.
I hope families and/or friends during this season do a lot of honest talking, without fear, in respect, in patience. It won't be easy in so many cases, but, it humbly seems to me, this is a duty we need work on in order to at least eventually feel "it was a life well live" though short it is.
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That’s why ours is a better political system. If the administration in power screws up, we vote it out and say ‘no it was that guy (just guys so far), not me.’ Feels like a YouTube subscription no?
When CCP flouts rule of law Chinese citizens should own up. When Trump undermines rule of law, we click unsubscribe.
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Canada is clearly a pawn in this mess and we should never have agreed to arrest her whether it's the law or not since no one else: US or china care about following the law. Trump has screwed us over so many times this year it's ridiculous, we owe nothing to the United states these days because they clearly don't have our back and we canadians are very naive in the ways these people play. And we are left out in the cold. Im not happy with the US and the arrogant flippant approach you are demonstrating to us. Our citizens are suffering and will be affected the rest of their lives along with their families because we had to arrest this stupid woman who is living in the lap of luxury in Vancouver and not in a jail cell being tortured. Thank you USA for nothing
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This incident is not happening "by extension, to the United States"; indeed, it is occurring precisely because of the request of American authorities to arrest Ms. Meng.
Subtle slips in wording cast Canada and China as the primary actors here, but it is the United States and China who are the real players. Strange - yet again - for Canada or any Canadians to suffer the consequences of being neighbours who are prepared to carry out rule of law or act honourably. Last time our prime minister stood up for us, he was backstabbed by a manipulative and arrogant American president named T_ _ _ _. So much for decorum and alliances.
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As my friend in Toronto said to me earlier this week - with friends like you guys, who needs enemies? We have done a terrible thing to our "best friends" by very deliberately putting them in the middle of our squabble with China. And now Canadian bystanders are being hurt. Just who in the hell do we think we are?
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Of course this is a political ploy by the US, done to intimidate another nation. Of course retaliation was to be expected. Of course relations between the US and other nations, built on notions that no longer apply, will continue to deteriorate.
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Treaties, especially those that expose one of the parties to potential or actual damages, are only to be respected if the signatories had reason to be confident of each other's commitment to the underlying principles.
As Donald Trump has demonstrated in this and in other cases that he disdains international agreements, prefers isolationism has no commitment to any principles that interfere with his perception of his immediate interests, and will undercut allies as he sees fit, there is absolutely no reason or public interest for Canada to risk the freedom of its citizens in order to uphold a worthless piece of paper.
The Government of Canada, in its right mind and looking after Canadian interests as a matter of high priority, would be negotiating a prisoner exchange agreement with China at this very moment, leaving it for the US to sort out its own issues with Ms. Meng by itself.
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@Mark
"The Government of Canada, in its right mind and looking after Canadian interests as a matter of high priority, ... . "
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In what universe do you imagine that this is possible?
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Clearly you do not understand the role of an independent judiciary in a country governed by the Rule of Law.
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The government of Canada does not have the right to break the law.
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This whole incident is a wake up call for Canada in myriad ways. First, it has disclosed the true nature of the Chinese govt to Canadians who naively advocate the pursue of trade with China at all costs. Second, it further reveals the culture of illegality which permeates Trump's presidency. Neither regime has a genuine respect for the rule of law, and in the case of Trump, he views diplomacy and foreign policy as something depicted on episodes of The Sopranos.
Trump's presidency may be a matter of historical curiosity two years from now, or may continue til 2025. Canada and America's so called other western allies can't afford to temporize during this presidency, as it's now incumbent upon us to seek and cultivate new relationships in the world.
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How is it legitimate for us to enforce our unilaterally imposed Iran sanctions against foreign citizens for their activities outside our borders, but not legitimate for China to enforce its laws against foreign citizens working illegally and acting as unregistered foreign agents inside China’s borders (laws which the United States also has and enforces)? We seem to think anyone in the world who touches an American product or does a transaction with an American bank should be subject to American law, even though they never voted for those laws. This aggressive extraterritoriality is what weakens the rule of law and why other countries do not take our comments about the rule of law or democracy seriously. Imagine how outraged we would be if China passed a law barring the sale of products with Chinese components to Taiwan (that is, most products in the world) and started arresting American businessmen in third countries for violating it. Both Meng, and the Canadians arrested in China, should be released.
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@Aoy
"This aggressive extraterritoriality is what weakens the rule of law and why other countries do not take our comments about the rule of law or democracy seriously...."
Perfect.
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@Aoy Denied consular access, held in solitary confinement, tortured (sleep deprived, intensive interrogation), these are the conditions of detention by Chinese authorities. Meanwhile Ms. Meng resides in comfort in her Vancouver mansion. Your comment is pure casuistry.
@Aoy I read the other day that the SWIFT system of international money transfer was the primary means of sanctions enforcement. Those who violate the Iran sanctions can be shut out to the system including blocking transfers that involve neither the US or Iran. China is working on a system to replace SWIFT. If they do, we may have cut off our own nose.
1
The Trump statement suggesting that the US case against Meng is a trade bargaining chip raises the question: Would Canada have felt obligated to honor its extradition treaty with the US if the US had asked for assistance not in a quest for justice but in an effort to arm-twist China in trade negotiations? The answer is obvious, and indicates that Canada must now be more careful about responding to US extradition requests, and perhaps other requests which may turn out to have ulterior motives.
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@Simon Potter
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Undoubtedly, when the hearing occurs Ms. Meng's counsel will draw the statements of the US President to the court's attention to undermine the credibility of the extradition request.
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Courts in Rule of Law countries generally take a dim view of being used as tools of political partisanship - as the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court has recently been at pains to explain.
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We'll see what happens, but, yet again, the WH certainly did not help America's cause.
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Canada was obligated to make this arrest under its extradition treaty with the US. To do otherwise would be political interference with the judicial process. It will be interesting to see if the US can muster enough evidence to reach the (low) threshold needed for extradition, especially given Mr. Trump's comments. I suspect there is one more thing at play here. The desire of the US to drive a wedge between the US and Canada and to deny Canada alternative export markets. China, with its bullying response, is playing into the AS plan as there is now greatly increased anger and suspicion between the two countries and the odds of a trade deal between them greatly reduced. This has been a big win for the US at the expense of both Canada and China.
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@StevenForth Not obligated at all. In every extradition arrest, the case must be learned properly, especially the high profile case like this Meng's arrest. This is not an ordinary murderer or raper or robber. The weirdest part is that she has been arrested for about 1 month, and no proof so far. You knew that when you started to arrest on day one, China would retaliate right away, why were you so stupid to go arrest without any solid proof?
@StevenForth: Did you mean to say "... to drive a wedge between China and Canada..."? Why would the US want to drive a wedge between the US and Canada?
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@StevenForth
The US, which instigated the arrests, the political bullying to gain economic advantage, is innocent. But China, which
retaliated in kind after this ploy, is a bully. Very good thinking.
Why would the Canadian government put their citizens at risk by doing the United States bidding? They couldn't possibly be honoring an extradition treaty, when the request by the U.S. for Ms. Meng's arrest is a result of our unilateral withdrawal from a nuclear treaty with Iran; a withdrawal that was opposed by all other signatories to that agreement. If this government doesn't honor treaties and agreements painstakingly worked out with other nations, then why should other governments?
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@bill payne: the extradition treaty requires that Canadian authorities detain the individual at the request of the United States. A Canadian court will then hold a hearing to determine whether or not a reasonable case exists. That had to happen.
The question is how much further co-operation Canadian officials -- none of whom are anxious to do Trump any favours -- are prepared to offer. What many seem to have missed is that extradition requires that the alleged act be a violation of Canadian law as well as American -- would the act be considered a crime if it took place on Canadian soil. And I think that whoever ends up arguing the American position when the hearing does take place is going have trouble fulfilling that criteria. The judge who presided over Ms Meng's bail hearing said as much when he granted her bail.
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@curious
"What many seem to have missed is that extradition requires that the alleged act be a violation of Canadian law as well as American -- would the act be considered a crime if it took place on Canadian soil...."
Excellent, and of course Ms. Meng could not have acted in any way in violation of Canadian law. The intent however is to harm Huawei and the law means nothing in this regard. The Canadian government has betrayed China and ordinary Canadians in taking Ms. Meng hostage.
Prime Minister Trudeau has long treated China disdainfully at the expense of Canadians. That was evident when Trudeau went to China with no preparation to strengthen trade ties and returned empty-handed.
4
@curious: Well put, and I am concerned that this puts us (i.e. Canada) on a slippery slope when it comes to arresting visitors for other supposed "crimes" at the behest of the US. What's next - arresting American dissidents and political opponents of Trump if they happen to visit and partake of our legal cannabis? A couple of years ago I would have thought that scenario ludicrous, but now I'm not so sure.
We need to stop trying to ruin Chinese development:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/at-gathering-of-spy-chiefs-u-s-allies-agreed-to-contain-huawei-11544825652
Dec. 14, 2018
At Gathering of Spy Chiefs, U.S., Allies Agreed to Contain Huawei
Concerns are shared by top intelligence leaders from “Five Eyes” intelligence-sharing network—Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S
By Rob Taylor in Canberra and Sara Germano in Berlin
Spy chiefs from the West’s most powerful intelligence alliance agreed in a July meeting in Canada they needed to contain Huawei Technologies Co., according to people familiar with the matter, punctuating years of worry about the Chinese maker of telecommunications equipment....
2
No relevance.
And... Hamper Chinese development? For the benefit of readers who are simply uninformed and not actually Chinese trolls, China became the number 2 global economy by its objectively unsupported (ie illegitimate) inclusion in the WTO and most favoured nation status granted by the US. China can thank the US and the rest of the world in perpetuity for this unearned gift.
The comment would be hilarious if it were satire, but as it is only illustrates a total ignorance of china's development.
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The problem is the United States and Canada conspiring to take a hostage to try to ruin Huawei:
https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/trump-war-on-huawei-meng-wanzhou-arrest-by-jeffrey-d-sachs-2018-12
December 11, 2018
The War on Huawei
The Trump administration's conflict with China has little to do with US external imbalances, closed Chinese markets, or even China’s alleged theft of intellectual property. It has everything to do with containing China by limiting its access to foreign markets, advanced technologies, global banking services, and perhaps even US universities.
By JEFFREY D. SACHS
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@Nancy
Well said. The sad thing is, by trying to deprive Huawei of its foreign markets, we are only driving it into the arms of the Chinese government further because Huawei will be more dependent on China for its business.
Contrast this with Lenovo, which was able to build an extensive international business prior to the hysteria about China. Now Lenovo is more independent of the Chinese government because it gets so much revenue abroad. It is creating jobs and providing good products to people throughout the world. We should encourage Chinese companies to do business abroad and become multinationals. If we had treated Lenovo 10 years ago the way we treat Huawei today, it would be the world’s loss.
1
Not that your comment has any relevance to the sunbect of the article Nancy, but China was granted access to world trade through the WTO and most favoured nation status by the US on the simple PROMISE of open markets, while every other country had to demonstrate it. It's access was illegitimate and it has since grown to the second biggest economy of the world while maintaining those barriers. China can thank the US and the rest of the world for that unearned gift in perpetuity.
The ignorance Chinese and Russian trolls believe readers possess is breathtaking.
4
For the past 50+ years when a friend or relative travels to an autocratic country I've worried: if the visit coincides with an arrest in the US of a national of that country, then my relative/friend might be arrested as a pawn. Indeed, travelers to such countries (e.g. N. Korea, China, etc) are almost asking for the U.S. to eventually be 'held-hostage' (how many US tax dollars have been spent on rescuing US citizens from N. Korea? [IMHO: we shouldn't spend even a nickel to free them]). Sadly, under Trump, we're well on our way to becoming like those other regimes.
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@Unconvinced The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world. We have so many criminally punishable laws on the books that many people are violating them all the time without knowing. You’re more likely to go to jail in the US than in most autocratic countries.
1
Don't understand why China or any other country should acquiesce in Us current Iran policy, especially since it is the US that renegade on the treaty with Iran.
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@Jenifer Wolf
China doesn't have to go along with US policy towards Iran.
What they seem to have done is use US technology in products sold to Iran when they were only allowed to use that technology with the understanding that they COULD NOT sell it to Iran.
Also, they ran funds from deals with Iran through US banks even though it is clearly illegal for American banks to do that. There are other banks in the world they could have used legally.
They just have to respect US law when doing business with the US.
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But nothing you have described is a violation of Canadian law as well -- something which is necessary under the terms of the extradition treaty if the extradition is actually to take place. The US actually has a pretty weak case here, and the judge who oversaw Ms Meng bail hearing shortly after her detention made that point a factor in his decision to grant bail.
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@S. B. Perhaps, but that is not the US claim in this case. The claim is that Ms. Meng misled HSBC about the activities of a then Huawei subsidiaries actions in Iran. It is the accusation of fraud that is the grounds for the accusation. This does seem like a trumped up attempt to get around the extradition treaty and it may not stand up in Canadian courts.
The detention of three Canadian citizens by the Chinese in retaliation of an earlier detention of the Chinese telecom company Huawei's CFO Meng Wanzou by Canada at the request of the US authorities appear identical offences that involve coercive blackmailing and gang like hostage taking unlawful actions as a means to wage the trade and diplomatic wars in defiance of the international law and the rules of international trade regime. The nations, and the leaders involved in sucj ugli spates are no different than the al-Qaida or the Islamic State terror groups employing the same tactics of hostage taking and terrorising people and governments to fulfil demands. The only difference between the two is that if the governments are operating from one side of the law, the terror gangs are doing the same from the other side of law.
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@Prof. Jai Prakash Sharma No, they are completely different. The Canadian arrest of Ms. Meng was done under an extradition treaty. She was given quick access to consular services and to lawyers, there was a public judicial hearing and she is now out on bail. The Canadian prosecutors will have to prove the US position before an extradition order is executed. The Canadians are being held without access to consular services, on vague charges, without access to lawyers and with no clarity on what if any judicial approach will be followed. Can you see the difference? Would you rather be in Ms. Meng's position, living in a large home free to conduct business over the phone and Internet, and to meet whoever one may like, or in the position of the Canadians in China?
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Prof. Jai Prakash Sharma
StevenForth, Thanks. On technical-legal grounds the Canadian case is sound whle the Chinese one is arbitrary, yet in substance it is essentially a part of trade war through coercive means in violation of the spirit of international law and the global trade rules.
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@Prof. Jai Prakash Sharma
Being free on bail, and understanding exactly the process one faces, is not simply a "technical-legal" issue. Simple question: right now, would you rather be in the position of Ms. Meng, or of one of the Canadian hostages?
2
Most of us are familiar with Russia’s interference in our elections. But in addition, these comment threads include small armies of Chinese pretending to be Americans, or in this case, Canadian. They aren’t too difficult to spot. We know the sound of an American complaining about Donald Trump, or the GOP, or the Democrats and so on. The Chinese try to mimic these complaints but in a way that favors China. I doubt they change many minds, but it’s still a good idea to be wary.
12
The ignorance Chinese and Russian trolls believe readers possess is breathtaking. They're not ALWAYS wrong, but that's usually no big deal. Until all it takes is 70,000 patsies in 3 swing states to deliver the goods...
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@Bob
Yes, China's voices are clearly busy here today.
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"China, already an aggressive rising power known to flout the rule of law and disregard human rights, now seems to be using hostage-taking to resolve economic and diplomatic disputes."
And meanwhile, the American Greg Kelly rots in a Japanese jail, because the Japanese don't have "due process" in any meaningful way.
But Japan is an American ally, while China is an American enemy.
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@abo You nailed it. American allies mostly get the puff pall press - culture and arts (India, Japan etc...) with warmth inducing accompanying photographs- gee they're just like us. Meanwhile, another example in Japan which the NYT had to mention former Nissan CEO Ghosn has been rearrested three times by the Japanese to keep restarting the clock on how long they can keep him in pretrial detention. (Clocking into the 2nd month now.) Many European countries and a lot of other countries around the world have these sorts of systems but if not bad news about China there's a lot less jumping up and down.
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@abo: I'm vastly unimpressed by what passes for "due process" in the US. The US has criminalized a trade dispute by making it a violation of a banking sanction. The US has decided that depriving Iran of cellphones will bend the mullahs to the will of Trump, and by golly, China had better toe Trump's line, or else...
3
You could provide some context or at least a link, otherwise why should I care one probable American criminal is in jail in a foreign country?
Irrelevant.
1
I'd be very surprised if, in the end, Ms Meng finds herself in an American jail. In only two years Trump's chronic insults, disrespect and bullying has destroyed the close relationship between Canada and the United States which has been the rule since the end of WW2. And the fact that so many Americans continue to support their man-child of a "President" doesn't help. Right now, nobody here in Canada feels that we owe the United States a thing, nor are we anxious to do that country any favours. They certainly aren't deserved.
So the most likely outcome is that we go through the motions which the extradition treaty requires, but at the actual hearing it turns out that Ms Ming's alleged offenses don't meet the criteria needed for extradition. Ms Meng goes home, we get our people back and (best of all) we get to stick a metaphorical thumb in Trump's eye. Three birds with one stone!
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@curious
Untrue. There are many Canadians who like Americans and value the relationship that has been built over decades, even if we don't necessarily agree with America's foreign policy or we don't like the current POTUS. Trump is not America. This too shall pass.
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@curious
Until trump starts taking Canadian hostages or taking out Canadian targets with rocket firing drones or nuking Canada :)
He has a bigger button!
1
Canadians care about the rule of law in Canada and will not stoop to this childish level of insults. That includes executing a legal arrest warrant and granting due process challenges to extradition requests. We will NOT bow to China NOR the US on judicial independence.
At the very least, a Canadian would dig into the facts on the case and come to the same conclusion as I have : this is a Chinese troll, and so are the majority of the thumb jockey "likes".
10
I find it ironic that ordinary Chinese are enraged at Meng's arrest.
In the US, if CEOs or executives were held responsible for their actions, there would be cheers and parties in the streets, regardless of their affiliation. Silicon Valley like Facebook, Wall St bankers, intrusive Internet companies, loss of net neutrality, environmental violators, big pharma etc.
And the US is "capitalist"
On the contrary in China, people suffer poor vaccines, poor food, air, water, inequality, pollution, rule of law, and rush to defend a woman who to do business and succeed in China was very corrupt, likely avoided taxes like Fan Bingbing and benefits from nepotism as a daughter of the founder, all the marks of crony capitalism. And she's enjoying clean Canadian air, food, lifestyle in Canada while poor suffering Chinese sacrifice themselves for her
And China is "Socialist"
I think we should trade names and logos, clearly we're all confused. But Chinese are blinded by nationalism, which had to replace Marxism as the glue holding China together. To me, that's the real tragedy of China.
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The problem is US never holds its executives accountable. So why the double standard?
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@df
It's certainly understandable if the Chinese people are blinded by nationalism.
No free press, no civil rights - an opaque authoritarian government...
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@df We would definitely be outraged if one of our executives was arrested by a foreign country for violating that country’s foreign policy. For example, if China had a law against companies that do business in China also doing business in Taiwan and China arrested an American executive for violating it, you bet average Americans would be outraged. Because we would correctly see it as a political crime.
Chinese people do not care Chinese executives are arrested for non-political crimes, like when the founder of major Chinese retailer JD was arrested in Minnesota for alleged sexual assault.
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For those with prior doubts, as this episode plays out, it is confirming core information about the national players involved and the world is watching.
since human civilization began in earnest, as tribes distinguishing among themselves by blood and territorial claims, competing states have exchanged hostages, even noble relatives, for continued peace or insurance against invasion or pending completion of a narrow alliance. it's saddening to see that, at a moment when so much developmental promise beckons unanswered, our world's most powerful nations are behaving like medieval fiefdoms. it's evidence, I believe, of the indispensable role political stability among allies and enemies alike plays in preventing a 21st century world war. the larger world has looked to America for so long and relied so heavily on its disproportionate geo-political influence, that every nation must quite literally realign itself on a planet whose magnetic poles are moving.
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@mark: This arrest warrant for an alleged banking violation is a US effort to force Trump's Iran policies on China.
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The Canada - EU trade agreement may have caused serious concern in Washington. In instructing Canada to arrest Ms Meng US officials must have expected that 1. China would retaliate and 2. the Canada - China bilateral relationship would be effectively severed. Meaning no China - Canada trade agreement. Has the US effectively "captured" Canada commercially?
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@Loup no, they haven’t captured Canada at all. Canada is still pursuing a treaty with China. Especially in light of all the problems Trump has caused. Canada and many Canadians no longer see the United States as a reliable, or even trust worthy, partner. Many Canadians now want their government to pursue trade deals with any country they can, just to get away from relying on the US for trade. The US hasn’t captured Canada any more than China has captured Australia
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While I am certain some Canadians feel boxed in by Canada’s relationship with the United States The general sentiment here in Canada, is that Canada’s role in this affair is nothing more than a routine law enforcement matter.
Canada and the United States might have areas of friction from time to time, but the United States has never kidnapped and tortured our citizens as China appears to be doing now. We also don’t fear the United States or believe that one day America’s troops will come storming across the border to take one of our territories. We are friends, allies and trading partners.
The same cannot be said of China and its neighbors Taiwan, Tibet and Hong Kong.
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@John Titor
Last year, about 57% of Canada's exports went to the USA. That's lower than it was in previous decades. Canada has looked to expand its foreign trade and become less reliant on its relationship with the USA, but Trump is not America, and the USA is still a very important trading partner and ally.
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Let's get it straight re the "detainees". The first two are retaliatory. But both these individuals were demonstrably on Chinese soil involved in highly sensitive information acquisition or other activities related to North Korea. China was watching them and when Meng was detained they moved. The case of the young woman without the right travel documents is unrelated. She'll be gone soon. The Canadian judge in granting Meng bail criticized the US gov case against Meng as "extremely speculative." No surprise given the US goal to bring down Huawei whose major crime is producing telecom infrastructure not readily open to US intelligence activity. (See Snowden) This whole mess is the result US enforcement of US Iranian sanctions most of the world thinks are a bad idea. The US could have arrested any number of high-level Huawei execs in the US - but no- Bolton the international affairs arsonist wanted to drag Canada whose relations with China were going too well (negotiating a free trade deal with China) into the conflict. They also wanted to amplify the provocation of the Chinese by trying to hang Meng's head on the wall and China took the bait. This was a purely political geopolitically strategic move. It achieved its goals; crippling Huawei, seriously damaging Canada-China relations, and provoking China into ill thought out retaliation that could be manipulated for the anti-China neocons benefit. They are doing victory laps around the State Department right now.
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@Belasco
The Canadians were "demonstrably" spies, you say?
Offer us evidence.
If you do not, may I assert with a similar lack of evidence that you are demonstrably a Chinese government Internet misinformation worker?
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@Belasco You know the details of the detainees and their activities how? And you forgot the serious damage this Precedent continues to do to U.S.-Canada relations.
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The US has enforced sanctions by taking actions against corporations, with huge fines. It has not normally arrested anyone.
This is far out of the ordinary, both to have arrested the Chief Financial Officer of a huge corporation over sanctions against Iran, and to have done so during transit through a third country and extradition.
It was clearly designed to be an outrage.
It was done exactly during face time between Trump and Xi. Thus, it humiliated both of them, but especially Xi.
Of course the Chinese are outraged. They were clearly meant to be outraged.
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@Mark Thomason
The facts don’t support your version of events; your version is consistent solely with that of the Chinese Communists.
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@Mark Thomason
I hope we’re that clever. Meanwhile, US corporations that manufacture in China for sale here should take this entirely new type of risk seriously and inform their future course appropriately. It would be a shame to have to boycott US companies so that we don’t have to spend more on the military. It would be better if they find other reasons to relocate.
Have seen articles and posts from both sides, Chinese and western media
The real situation is neither as bad as western society claims, treated with impunity, nor as good as the government thinks. And the people know it all along, regardless.
Politics is a mixed bag. Detaining, if based on fabrications but unknown now, is just counter tactics. Nothing to do with the basic functions.
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@Evan
No doubt if you happen to be detained without just cause by a foreign state you'll stoically abide your detention as per your opinions thereof.
@Evan
No offence Evan but your grammar suggests you’re chinese. The Canadians are following the law. The Chinese are pulling the same evil tactics on the Chinese that they use on internal dissidents. The Americans are the ones that requested the arrest. It’s with the Americans that the Chinese should hold discussions. Kidnapping Canadian citizens is the act of an oafish bully. It indicates that the CCP is never going to behave in a civilised manner. Which means that eventually we will have to go to war with them to teach them to do so. That’s a war that China cannot win because the world economy was operating reasonably well before China came along and cutting them out of that economy will be bearable to the west. But China does not have the resources to stand alone - no country does. It’s close to time that the deluded fools in the CCP, who are as stupid and deluded as trump - get taught a harsh lesson.
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@Evan
tell it to the guy in the cell being kept awake constantly for days...
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