Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Biggest WINNER? Israel. Why?
Israel's biggest fantasy? A "peace plan" that railroads Palestinians and gives Israel everything it ever dreamed of.
Who can deliver Israel's fantasy "peace plan?" Kushner. Why?
Using Saudi support and threats, Kushner/Trump can bludgeon Palestinians into economic submission.
What allows Saudis a free hand to support Israel's crushing of Palestinians? An end to Turkish leaks and pronouncements on the Khashoggi murder and complicity at the highest levels of the Saudi government.
What does Turkey require to stop lambasting Saudis? A big favor.
What is abandoning Syrian Kurds? A big favor to Turkey.
Who likely came up with the idea of our leaving Syria's Kurds to curry favor with Turkey so they'd allow us to use Saudis against Palestinians? Israel (either directly to Trump or through Kushner).
Russia stole our presidential election.
Israel has stolen our Middle East policy.
We're not the "leader of the free world." We're a pathetic pawn, willingly and easily (very easily!) twisted by some having the worst impulses out in the world and for us.
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@AJ
Um, nope.
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@AJ to MooseMaps:
Ummm….figure it now or read it 20 years later in someone's memoirs. Your choice is?
So from your self-described Trump basement perspective, Israel stole America's Middle East policy and railroads, bludgeons and crushes the Palestinians.Therefore, Israel dictated to Trump to leave Syria because it's in her interest to do so? Come again? Israel isn't inundated with Palestinian Hamas rockets and tunnels, per Hamas's declared aim to destroy Israel and kill all Jews everywhere? The Palestinian Authority isn't an exercise in corruption and mendacity? Palestinian textbooks denying that there was ever a Jewish presence in the Holy Land is not pure fantasy? At last count, Assad has murdered 500,000 of his own people and driven out 10 million as refugees (some of whom have found sanctuary in Israel). Why hasn't Israel, with her "railroading, bludgeoning and crushing" powers eradicated the Palestinians altogether? Alternatively, since Israel is in control of US foreign policy, shouldn't she be able to get the US military to destroy the Palestinians once and for all? I really don't understand how Israel finds the time to continue to build the Middle East's "Silicon Valley", and the technology to desalinate water to share with her Arab neighbors, and render medical care to needy Palestinians, and so on and so forth, when she's so busy controlling the Oval office and clearly unilaterally responsible for the grinding conflict.
1
Nice article,Alot of ,"What about the children?.",But the article missed the united states in violation of international law,The UNSC,And the UN general assembly!.
Turkey has made it clear,They are going to attack the PKK in syria,And that if american troops are with them,That would be an american loss of life,Caused by arming,And aiding a known terror organization.The very same organization that the United states,The united nations,And turkey have all agreed is a terror group!.
Pulling out of syria now,Stops a war crimes investigation against the united states for invading,and occupying syria.And allows an american ally to deal with a terror group,That has been trained,and funded,And armed over the last few years by america.
So when you hear this withdraw is a stain on american honor,I would say ,This withdraw saves what little we have left.America should NEVER got into bed with a terrorist group that america itself labeled a terror group.
Much as I dislike the man who currently occupies the Oval Office, I have to say that he might have gotten this one right. As they say, even the blind squirrel... Our ongoing efforts in the Middle East reflect an appalling failure to learn from either our own past mistakes (Vietnam) or those of the Soviet Union (Afghanistan). ISIS, Taliban, Al-Queda, etc are murderous and evil. They can inflict horrible but limited pain on us and our allies but fundamentally do not pose an existential threat to Western Civilization. What does pose that threat is our ongoing inability to prioritize as we continue expending vast resources in an asymmetric conflict that the terrorists are winning by bleeding us dry.
We need roads and bridges and better broadband and improved schools and better benefits for workers in dying industries and better security at home and healthcare security and attention to volatile climate (manmade or not), and on and on and on... all of which pose existential threats far more potent than ISIS, and all of which would benefit from the resources we now devote to endless low grade war.
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Well the US and Israel had to declare war on Syria by sending tens of thousands head chopping killers to the country. Now they lost and for Israel this is a devastating loss. Ever since 1948 they were on the winning side, now they for the first time are on the losing side. No pity.
1
Typical myopic analysis, ignoring the fact that the USA has never had a legal and legitimate presence in Syria...
You have completely ignored the biggest winners in a U.S. pullout -- American troops, their families, and U.S. taxpayers.
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Not just winners + losers. A bit more complicated, I think:
The chain of events explains Trumps' simplistic geopolitical move (to my mind):
Turkey threatens to invade Northern Syria (again) if 'Kurdish terrorists threaten their country' (they equal all Kurdish groups with PKK).
But the Kurdish troups are protected by the US.
Both Turkey and the US are NATO members and this would put them in combat with each other.
Trumps' 'deal': Trumps does Erdogan a favor + withdraws, delivering the Kurdish allies to the Turks. No NATO conflict. What does Trump get: Turkey is buying fighter planes from the US instead of Russia.
Why is Putin smiling? All his military could not have wreaked greater havoc on the US than our self-inflicted chaos. Make Russia great again. Cheap. Just self-destruct.
3
Trump is an ignorant man. Why did Trump put sanction on Iran and then give Iran Syria. Trump makes no sense.
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Bashar al-Assad needs to be removed from power and Russia needs to leave Syria.
2
Israel and the Saudis are winners-- both support ISIS as a weapon against Iran.
Every time Iranian forces close in on the Saudi- backed ISIS, Israel bombs them to protect ISIS.
Every single thing the United States has done in the so-called war on terror, all the way back to before 9-11, to long-term support to brutal dictatorships in the region, to our festering alliance with Saudi Arabia, to the first Gulf War, to arming both sides in the Iran-Iraq war, to our oblivious, murderous greed for control of oil in the region--every single decision has been filled with disregard for the value of innocent lives in the region. Why should our sudden withdrawal from the fiasco of Syria be any different? Other than the fact, of course, that Trump is doing it to desperately keep Russia on his side.
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This is what passes for "analysis" these days? Count on the NYT to oversimplify complex situations for a readership that doesn't want to or cannot think for themselves.
This is a juvenile framing. As Democratic senators pointed out during the debate over Yemen, the Middle East is not a zero sum game. Cutting support for the Saudi bombing campaign doesn't mean Iran wins (aka the infantile argument made by Pompeo, which the Senate strongly rejected). Withdrawing a mere 2000 troops from Syria doesn't mean Iran or Russia wins. Withdrawing troops from a 15+ year war doesn't mean the Taliban wins.
If Obama did any of this, we'd all be cheering his leadership. I loathe Trump, but every once in a very long while he does the right thing, even if it's for the wrong reasons. But up to this point, not one single leader of either party or the military had the sense to do the right thing for the right reasons, so I'll settle for the right thing for the wrong reasons.
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Amazing to see so many liberals come out as Pro-War activists.
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Nothing new here. The Con Don is doubling down on a incoherent foreign policy -- betraying and abandoning allies while making things better for enemies.
This country has a long record of betraying supposed allies:
People say the Kurds were/are loyal and effective allies so lets turn our backs on them and abandon them.
Vietnamese people supported America so lets deport them.
People in Iraq worked with and supported our troops and we left them behind to fend for themselves.
Will we ever pay a price for our treachery?
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Did Trump pull out of Syria in response to a private request/demand by Putin? It has long appeared that Putin has some damaging information about Trump, and I wonder if this is a manifestation of the real Russia scandal.
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The point view of the writer of this article is very simplinst. The syrian situation can't be reduced to the geopolitical interests of those who are parts of many of proxi wars that take place in Syria.
From the human point of view, there is an winner and a looser. The winner is the syrian people, at least no more civilian population will died from the permanent US bombartments. The syrian people has reason to celebrate the event. The looser are USA and Israel.
You know who stands to gain? I do. This illegal war does not have my support and I do not wish for my tax $ to be wasted on it. And you know... that's all that matters.
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The Kurds are by far the most effective and loyal American allies in the Middle East.
Egypt, Israel, Saudi Arabia and Turkey are the least effective and most treacherous American allies.
America's most dangerous and duplicitous competitors, enemies and foes are China, Russia, al Qaeda, ISIS, Taliban, North Korea and al Qaeda.
America's least dangerous and duplicitous competitors, enemies and foes are Cuba, Iran, Palestinians and Shia Muslims.
America's closest and most important allies are Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Japan, Italy, Mexico, New Zealand. South Korea and the United Kingdom.
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@Blackmamba Good comment. You cover everything. Naturely , The Con Don is bashing and betraying our allies while helping our enemies.
One question, why do we hate the Iranians so much? I know they are not particularly nice people but they are no worse than the Saudis and would probably be a more dependable ally. If we had been on good terms with Iran over the last twenty years, they could have helped us so much. They hate the Taliban and could have helped us in Afghanistan and they could have helped in Iraq, etc.
We hate Iran but we are constantly doing things to make them stronger. For example, Saddam Hussein was Iran's great enemy and we got rid of him for them.
I think we need some leaders that understand foreign policy and international politics.
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The Trump style is to declare bankruptcy when business goes bad, and this is what he is doing now. But the situation is different when there are no lawyers and judges to reimpose order. In the world, it is the powerful who move in when there is disorder. Since that will not be the U.S., it will be nations that have no commitment whatsoever to anything but their own power., e.g., Russia. I cannot help but wonder what Chinese strategists make of this situation.
We Americans must by now be thoroughly disabused by the fantasy that Republican "adults in the room" will stabilize an irrational and unpredictable president. On the one hand, he rants against Iran, while on the other, he helps foster "a newly empowered Iran with unfettered land access to their Hezbollah allies."
Those who say "we should not be there" ought to recall Colin Powell's point about invading Iraq. We unilaterally broke an admittedly horrible authoritarian regime; we still own the consequences of what we as a nation broke.
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The US has no more business invading and occupying small, weak ME countries than Syria does invading and occupying Kansas.
Our country has been mucking around in the ME for nearly as long as we've been in existence. All we've "accomplished" is death, destruction, disruption and debt. It is no wonder that they mistrust us, that they hate us. It will be messy after we leave, but Good Goddess, it is already messy. At least they won't have to contend with our incompetence as they struggle to work things out.
I never thought I'd say this, but I agree w/ He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named and with Fox News .
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@Miss Anne Thrope
OK - let's leave Syria to ISIS. What could go wrong?
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It is a total shame how the Kurds are treated by the Trump administration. They were our only true allies down there. Thousands of them died by acting as our ground troops to defeat Isis. They were bringing those sacrifices with the expectation of some kind of protection by the US. Now since they have almost done their job the US leaves them out there in the dark. Even worse, it seems that Trump has given the green light to Erdogan to go and kill the Kurds since he wants Erdogan to stop pressing his Saudi crown-prince buddy for the Kashoggi murder. I never thought that the US would end up as a cynical force of evil like that.
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@Alexander It's a shame how the Kurds have been treated by almost every administration.
There's nothing particularly unique about this time.
Trump doesn't exist in a vacuum.
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We should not have been fighting in Syria in the first place. We will never 'solve the problems' of the Middle East. From a national security standpoint, the region's oil exports are no longer critical to the United States. Our very presence on the ground -- while on one hand impacting terrorist organizations -- also generates anger against our country and serves as a recruiting tool for radicals.
And no, we don't just need to 'do something' because the sensibilities of our coast elites are offended by a regime.
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I see no reason why anyone would trust Trumps America anymore.
He has relinquished any last aspiration to be a leader in the free world.
Shameful actions and pitiful lack of understanding of the real world.
As he condoned a reporters blood splattered over the walls of an embassy, so will Kurdish blood be spilt across the land because of your Presidents feeble intellect.
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Another case of American abandoning allies for expediency.
We deserted Vietnam and left people who helped us during the war giving us the famous helicopter shot on top of the embassy.
We deserted Iraqi that helped us during the Iraq war and left them to be killed as traitors to their country.
We used the Hmong trial people in the border region of Laos and Vietnam and abandoned them stateless and friendless. They are still there and are called the boat people.
America is not to be trusted as an ally. We foolishly go in to countries to protect business interests and friends of the military industrial complex. We had honor and purpose in WWII, but we are mostly now motivated by dollar signs.
Let's see what corruption comes out of the 3 Wise MaraLago cabal-niks that wants to rework the VA system.
I look forward to woman in Washington. They do not have worthless machismo like men. They do not send their children to be killed, they know how to balance a check book, they are not part of the "boys club".
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My fantasy for the day: Israel opens its borders to the Syrian Kurds who are about to get slaughtered by Turkey and Assad.
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@Sledge Wrong. The Kurds are about to seek accommodation with the legitimate government of Syria in order to forestall an attack by Turkey that would violate Syrian sovereignty.
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If he has not done so already, Mr. Netanyahu must let Trump know that this will not be good for Israel.
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Iran "secured an all-important land bridge through Syria to supply weapons to Hezbollah, Iran’s Shiite militia ally in Lebanon"
Wouldn't a land bridge require access through Iraq or Turkey? Iran and Syria are not contiguous.
I would appreciate if someone can clarify this for me.
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@Chris The Iraq'i government is controlled by Shiites, they are friendly towards Iran.
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Trump's right.
Seventeen years of The George Bushs' Wars is ENOUGH. Perfidious "allies"who we liberated, ungrateful local populations, billions of treasure and incalculable blood; let those we treaty with know that there is a limit to our help from now on. The Vietnam syndrome of endless hit-and-withdraw and dithering over pinpoint bombing must end if this country gets into another war. Enemies who threaten us must know that we will intend to make any next conflict "nasty, brutish and short." It should be a total war, and finally under a constitutional declaration by Congress. And an exemption-tightened draft must be mandated if such a war is needed. No longer should the rich, and professional athletes, and those in college wave gaily to the poor marching off to battle.
Too many of OUR cities and rural areas are stumbling. Universal free health care, a national pension plan, civil mercies which so many of our First World allies enjoy --- under and because of OUR defensive mantle --- must finally be our birthright, too. Uncle Sugar's military must be leashed, and some of the costs for feeding this animal must be redistributed to our own citizens, at last.
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@CM
I appreciate your comment. It gives me a lot to ponder.
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The US has no legal right to be in Syria in the first place. It was not authorized by the UN Security Council nor the legitimate Syrian government. You can only condone US presence in Syria if you consider the US the "exceptional" country that has no responsibility to follow international law.
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@David Hamilton Exactly!
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Saudi Arabia should be added as a loser, since the withdrawal of US troops strengthen Iran's position.
It may become USA policy to no longer police the Middle East. However, it seems irresponsible to step away from a brawl and then hand out advanced weapons to the various parties.
What would Iran give for improved relations with Egypt? Oil?
2
Interesting how there is no mention of the real winners when we pull out of Syria- families of American solders in harm's way as well as the soldiers themselves.
This shows how out of touch these reporters must be without any personal emotional connection to the enormous harm that such wars may bring. We need to re-institute the draft to make sure that all have an equal opportunity to be put in harm's way, including these reporters. Then such "elitist" views, which completely ignore the real losers in a war, along with the real winners when war ceases, will finally be put to rest.
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@Dan
it is not the pulling out that is the problem, It is the way that it was done. No planning, no concern about the Kurds who are allies, no acknowledgement of the danger that our troops are in at this moment... Also, what does our intelligence know that we do not?
I do agree that we need to institute the draft, configured with non violent ways to serve the country, and that no engagement of war is done without congressional approval.
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@Dan. I guess you are unaware that under the draft the true elites, wealthy whites like George Bush, Jr, never have to go to war if they don’t feel like it. And, of course, you don’t care about the hundreds of thousands now in harms way in Syria. Would that be because they are not “white” like you?
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Losers? This calculus failed to include the lives of the fine men and women of the U.S. military stationed in this quagmire of ethnic and religious hate.
I suspect this reporter and the editorial board of The New York Times might take a different view if it was their husband, father, wife, mother, son or daughter who might not come home.
The experts can speculate about the impact of this withdrawal - it is what they do - and the various groups that have enjoyed the benefit of U.S. tax dollars can bemoan the loss, but there will never be a good time to get out of Syria. Better sooner than later.
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Seems like Putin wants to get as much of his wish list realized before the Dems take over the House. Withdraw from Syria, remove sanctions from Oleg Deripaska, Manafort’s oligarch friend, and shut down the U.S. government while any Cabinet threats like Mattis are gone. And the GOP still does nothing. Guess Trump needs the troops to go to war against women and children on the US-Mexico border. Putin laughs and laughs.
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Looking back, the US military-industrial complex 'won'. The problem is, they didn't get the outcome they expected. It's time to learn the lessons of history.
Under Bush 43, we got Saddam executed, we installed the puppet government of our choosing, and later, "Arab spring' erupted throughout the middle east.
Mission accomplished.
What we didn't get (aside the Iraqi oil well income to pay for the war)was flourishing representative democracy in the middle east. Instead of flourishing democracy, terrorism flourished.
It's time for us to admit our policy of destabilizing foreign governments and installing 'pro-western moderates' does not lead to representative democracy. And attempting it in the middle east, where some of the oldest human societies exist is a particularly poor choice.
Many of these societies were living in peace, they just weren't living in a way that was expedient for the West to do business with.
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In principle, I do support a steady American retreat from the Middle-East. Perhaps the timing is wrong, but then I'm not sure there'd ever really be a right time to begin with.
Fall back, move out, come home.
Close our bases in the Middle East and for the love of God, stop selling weapons to all those countries. While we're at it, invest in renewables and quit importing their oil.
You can't force others to live together in peace, they must decide to do so themselves (as the Europeans did post WWII).
We have no business there.
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@Erik
The problem I see is that Syria is not an "island' -- a country that stands alone and doesn't affect any of its neighbors or the rest of the world. Here are two examples of what I mean:
First, this empowers Iran. (They're nice folks who've never bothered us.) Now that we're leaving Syria, will we pay more (in money and in other problems) than we would pay for staying in Syria and helping to contain Iran and its proxies?
Second, we've made some (implicit?) promises to the Kurds that we would help to support and protect them from Turkey. They've fought hard and made gains. Guess what, Kurdistan? We (US) changed our mind. In a month, you'll be in your own. Sorry about that, but: America first. Good luck! (Seriously, now: This is yet another example to countries around the world that the Trump administration can't be trusted. For instance, why are we leaving suddenly instead of first notifying allies -- like the Kurds -- and giving them time to adjust as we draw down our forces in a more strategic way?)
This is what we get when we elect a president who's basically clueless about diplomacy and foreign affairs. Good luck, world!
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@Erik The Europeans could only live in peace thanks to American support and NATO. Otherwise the Russians would have taken over the democracies in Europe.
5
A nobody projecting the outcome of something,remember the Domino principle in Vietnam that if we left southeast Asia would fall,or Dick Cheney and Paul wolfowitz claiming we would be welcomed as liberators with flowers and candy in Iraq and it would only be a short war.
15
The falsehoods we believe. Who gains? Before the Syrian conflict spiraled from a domestic issue to one that drew local and outside powers [see Christopher Phillips’ The Battle for Syria], there was no al Qaeda affiliates in Syria, no ISIS. Nations bordering Syria alongside US, Britain, and France allowed arms, money, and jihadist fighters to invade.
Contrary to the popular theme, unlike Iran and Syria, we and our “coalition” were not invited to enter Syria. Syria and its allies faced the brunt of the foreign fighters, not the coalition. Three years in with billions expended and bombing on a daily basis, and we claim that there are still 30,000 ISIS fighters? Apparently we accomplished nothing except to aid in the dissolution of the country.
The war hawks, who apparently have a strong hold on our foreign policy, wins if we continue to participate, whether directly or indirectly, in this war.
Syria was not a threat to Turkey prior to 2011, relations were good. Jordan was not a friend, but it held trade relations. Iraq had its jihadist threat reduced and had no concern about hostiles from Syria. Israel, despite propaganda, had a quiet border under Bashar as it did under Hafiz.
Russian presence was minimal. Iranian influence was there, but to not the extent it is now. There was no al Qaeda affiliate. The religious radicals had no base.
Those who advocated the destruction of Damascus were wrong.
We are not the arbitrator of the world.
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@doughboy
An experiment was done with a group of men and women. each group were to go from point A to point B crossing a pretend river and had to all members of their group across the river with 2 boards that were not long enough to accomplish the job. The men rushed in without a plan and failed. Meantime the women stood back and developed a strategy to solve the problem and accomplished their goal.
You are right ,though we are not the arbiters of the world. We do have a responsibility to be fair to our allies and plan accordingly. Mr. T seems to prefer to side with our adversaries and not our allies.
This is only one piece in the puzzle of what is happening to our democracy, our government and our constitution in our country. Look at the bigger picture.
I am not a US citizen, but I can say for sure that Mr. Trump is the most enigmatic US President of all times. Authoritarian and overly Nationalist attitude might help the country grow in short run, but, in long run, there is much to lose in that US allies will be tilted towards Russians, bolstering the Russian economy and leading to loss in the value of dollar - it might impact the US economy. Already, Chinese Govt. is trying hard to buy out every nook and corner of the World, creating imbalance of power and influence. Hence, showing indifferent attitude towards the World won't help the US Govt. in keeping its much influence all over the world. The consequences of Mr. Trump's policies are already visible in the fact that much experienced intellectuals are leaving the Govt., putting the crucial decision-making at risk. This is ridiculous that one of the World's most powerful economy cannot make decisions acceptable to respected agencies.
In short, it's not gonna help US at all.
16
A few thousand US troops plus the Kurds holding a Sunni Arab area long term would have been a disaster. The US had to leave. The question is one of timing and preparation. Similar to the Obama abandonment of Iraq and accelerated withdrawal from Afghanistan, the Ford Administration and Congressional abandonment of South Vietnam, these type of sudden US moves are destabilizing. The US should have prepared our allies like Israel and the Kurds. We could have negotiated with Turkey prior to our departure to make sure they will be treated humanely. Instead the US once again is running for the door.
19
You left out one country.
America.
The US has steadily lost credibility and global leadership in the Trump era, and this latest move makes it clear that things will only get worse. Good people like Mattis have left the government, and now Trump is constrained only by his own impulses, and his inexplicable subservience to Vladimir Putin.
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@Charlie B I agree that the withdrawal will not increase overall trust in the US, but you leave out the major advantage. Much of the territory being taken from ISIS is Sunni Arab. The Kurds and the US are looked on as foreign occupiers. Significant percentage of this community will support terrorism if we stay too long. Getting out is smart. Also lowers the chance of another US-Russian clash. This is a tough neighborhood. Don't fight with people who have more to lose than you. But this doesn't absolve the current administration of lack of consultation and planning around their decision.
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