The main problem of the US electoral system is the full weight of single electoral districts. That means, in every voting district, only 1 person (the one with the most votes, often not even the majority) gets elected. That's the main cause of the unhealthy 2-party system and the suppression of minority opinions (greens, libertarians,...). In a proportional voting system, when you have as example 5 seats per district, parties or persons with 20% support get elected as well.
There's some science about that. The fairest voting mechanism:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biproportional_apportionment
is used in some parts in Switzerland. In parliamentary elections, it's not possible, that a party gets far more seats than its percentage.
Michel Balinski has used this concept for a fair(er) voting system in the US:
http://www.mathaware.org/mam/08/EliminateGerrymandering.pdf
I am VERY against any gerrymandering, but this was really buried in the story and the headline was misleading;
The Democratic lawmakers’ proposal would amend the New Jersey Constitution, and New Jersey voters would need to approve it through a ballot measure.
People are VOTING. I hope they vote against it but this is quite different from what the GOP has been doing. C'mon, NY Times.
Do not be naive and always want to be the righteous one especially now. It is time to take action and take a bold step to gerrymander NJ to challenge the relentless attack by racist GOP and their continue support to Trump. To Trump and GOP Senate, governing is an absolutely about power and politics in protecting their special interest. It is never about ethics, moral, or justice, or greater good to citizen.
1
Gerrymandering is a BAD IDEA, no matter which party is in charge. It will always come back to bite you from several directions. I can’ believe what I am reading. Just plain stupid!
1
Nooo! Don't go down that path Democrats or we're no better than the GOP and will have zero moral authority.
2
In Michigan I was intimately involved in the successful nonpartisan initiative campaign that resulted on Nov 6th (over 61% of voters supported) to establish a citizens redistricting commission by constitutional ammendment. It removes from politicians involvement in redistricting. I trust that voters in New Jersey will see through this effort to make gerrymandering constitutional and demand action taking the process out of partisan politics. Democrat or Republican, gerrymandering is bad for democracy.
4
This is the issue of the moment. The voices of We The People are undercut by gerrymandering, special interests, big money, foreign influence, voter suppression, etc. Anything by either party that does other than make every voice count equally is wrong. I'm a lifelong Democrats and I'm disgusted that Democrats are doing this.
3
Thank the Democratic politicians of NewJersey for confirming that neither political party can ever redraw congresssional districts on any basis other than the self interest of incumbents.
The ultimate goal of biased gerrymandering is permanent legislative power. The end result of unchecked power is corruption.
The California model is imperfect but, if nothing else, it excludes elected politicians from the decennial process of constructing congressional districts that are of equal in population and do not arbitrarily benefit one or another party or demographic group.
1
It is refreshing to see how many Democrats oppose this power grabbing behavior. We need fair elections and gerrymandering should be unilaterally declared obsolete after these past two years of coming so very close to losing our democracy. If one good thing comes out of the Trump "era" it should be that the voices of the people are listened to and acted upon by politicians. We are tired of corruption.
2
As a life long Dem, I urge you not to do this.
Nice to know being power-hungry crosses party lines, I guess...
Next to some of Trump's actions, this is most anti-democratic action I have ever seen. Even worse then NC and Wisc. Not only do I hope they fail, but I also hope they are not re-elected.
24
We are either a democracy or we aren't. I don't care what party we are talking about, gerrymandering and the Electoral College have got to go. Permanently. A government of the people, by the people and for the people shall not perish, but what is going on here is representation for the few, not for the many.
This is a terrible proposal that lowers Democrats to the same level as the Republicans that we have been fighting against. It is an embarrassment to all Democrats.
23
It really doesn't matter so long as you're an American citizen. Gerrymander by any party or group in any electoral district in the United States is not only a violation of basic democratic principles, it's fundamentally immoral. While I live in Pennsylvania, and firmly believe that the equality of anyone's vote in any state or local election in the US should not be abridged by selective voting districts (gerrymander) created to diminish that equality, I urge that a Constitutional Amendment be considered calling for uniform representative geographic districts. The enactment of such an Amendment would need very careful thought and consideration to insure fair and equal voter representation. The current wave of anti-democratic gerrymander by many in our political parties is despicable, especially by the Democrats in New Jersey... and I'm a liberal Dem.
Gerrymandering is a form of election-fixing, as is passing Voter ID laws that discriminate, and pulling dirty tricks like manipulating absentee ballots. Why can we not recognize that these manouvers continually chip away at the foundations that make this countly worth the fight (and not incidentally) support only the rich and the cynical.
Firstly, disgusted by state legislatures of other party and now, by those of my own.
1
Wrong is wrong. I was taught this by my parents when I was a child as I am sure many of these politicians were. I will vote against any politician that resorts to these tactics, regardless of party affiliation, to win an election. Maybe we should go back to the post slave era and decide Republicans votes are only equal 1/2 a normal vote . Disgraceful at best
2
I am just flat-out disgusted. Doesn't either party, as a party, at any level of government believe that democracy comes before self-serving entrenchment and ultimate perversion of the people's interests?
2
The goal should be to remove ALL gerrymandering. Proportional districts based on geometrics amended only by natural barriers should be the law. This just engenders more corruption. Dirt is dirt, whether you paint it red or blue.
3
So many people who are against Donald Frump and republicans have this absolute belief that democrats are their saviors. Nobody can ever seem to get it through their thick skulls that political parties in general are the enemy. Democrats may be a little better than republicans, or at least they are not normal as blatant about things (up until this fiasco in New Jersey) although they don’t really care about us either. I have considered myself a democrat on most, but not all, issues; but to be honest, I really want more independent, progressive, realistic, ordinary people in government. People who are not wealthy and despicable such as Donald Frump, but regular people who have intelligence and want to truly make a difference and provide help to the people. Gerrymandering is so ridiculous and it should have been made illegal long long ago. Every single state should do what we passed in Michigan and have district maps drawn by a committee of non-partisan citizens. It should go even further by making those non-partisan district maps unchangeable. Super PACs and lobbying need to be outlawed immediately as well. It is time we the people take the power back from all these politicians who think we work for them and they can just do whatever they want to do without consequences. And back to topic; no state Legislators should be able to to have the power to limit the power of a governor of a opposing party, be it republicans or democrats.
This just shows how low the Dems can go in NJ. I'm a registered Democrat, and consider myself liberal, and am angered every time I recall the times we lost elections due to Republican gerrymandering. And now the Dems are sinking that low, too?
No! Our governor is correct. Sweeney is one of the Norcross corrupt, along with District 5's incoming senator, Jeff van Drew, who is more conservative than many Republicans. They are Democrats in name only!
Say NO to gerrymandering!
3
No, a thousand times NO! The GOP has become utterly corrupted by the undue influence of money and bald faced power grabs. That includes gerrymandering and other monkey business with elections. Dems need to be the party that defends and protects the American right to free and fair elections. A Blue Ribbon Commission is needed that will investigate current practices and use evidence based research to identify best practices to achieve that goal.
1
As a New Jersey Democrat I disagree with this proposal , going against the adage "turn around is fair play". It's not, it's simply seeking the low ground also. The Democratic party needs to carry the mantel of decency and honesty as we rebuild faith in our political process.
1
Wrong is wrong. Everybody knows gerrymandering is wrong when Republicans do it and wrong when Democrats do it. How is it that there are still politicians who get away with this? I guess NJ voters have their work cut out for them...
1
New Jersey politics have always been controlled locally. My Dad's lawyer was the Middlesex County Representative back in the '50's and used to stop by to chat with Dad in the backyard, probably because my Dad voted in every election. My Dad used to joke "Vote early and often". Local politics were extremely varied-Democrats in the Eastern Counties and Republican in the more sparely settled Western and Southern agricultural counties, Democrats tended to be elected in federal elections but we frequently had Republican governors. "No one knew why". Now we do. Congressional districts were manipulated to favor the party in power-Democrats- and governor races were statewide and probably by popular vote.
2
Democrats should go for it. If the shoe was on the other foot, we know what the Republicans would do. Just look at what they've recently done in Wisconsin.
'Nuff said.
This stinks even more than usual for New Jersey. It stinks to high heaven that the idea and the shenanigans to put it on the ballot comes from Democrats. Who do they think they are? Republicans?
3
@Stephen Beard
At least the Democrats are putting this proposal on the ballot. Republican-majority legislatures did not put any of their gerrymandering schemes in MI, NC, OH, PA or WI, just to name a few states, on the ballot; in the words of Nike, they "just did it" and enacted them without any public input. Frankly, Democrats should do the same, not put this on the ballot, and just go ahead with a gerrymandering plan. It's time the Democrats stopped "playing fair"; their insistence on "fair play" has gone a long way toward getting them out-numbered in state legislatures across the country.
@Rick. Really Rick? You think a race to the bottom is the way to go? Think again.
1
What a terrible and hypocritical idea. If it's wrong for Republicans, it's also wrong for Democrats.
1
Vote down !Resist! This is not a smarty idea by Fools. Don’t they read the papers
1
This is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. I'm a life long Democrat but think a plague on this great nation. No party should have a lock on power, ever. Political parties should run on their merits; if Democrats don't win, we go and get better ideas and people to express those ideas. We do not need to rig the game, trivializing elections and the people's vote. Democrats can do better. All of us can do better.
1
@Lance Darcy ... but think *gerrymandering is* a plague ...
This is an appalling choice of strategy. The GOP has discredited itself and subverted democracy by embracing gerrymandering, vote suppression, disenfranchisement, and all the rest of it (including outright electoral fraud). For the Democratic party to be following the GOP lead is a disaster both for the nation and for the Democratic party. Let them leave an unequivocal, incontestable difference between "the two parties" that so many are ready to say are "the same."
1
this is absolutely wrong in my state, WI, and absolutely wrong in Jersey as well.
1
I am encouraged by the number of comments by self-described Democrats criticizing their own party for advocating gerrymandering.
Avoiding hypocrisy and insisting on political and constitutional integrity is essential for preserving our democracy.
This is the first good sign I have seen in our otherwise acrimonious and depressing political discussion.
1
This is why people quit voting.
Bad idea that may end up in court.
Democrats nice again grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory. Gerrymandering is a bad idea no matter which political party is drawing the maps. Have they learned nothing?
1
keep elections free and fair ! all districts should reflect local geography and common sense, with no consideration whatsoever to voting trends. If the Republicans want to engage in legal, or illegal cheating, call them out on it. But first look in the mirror
1
The Democrats in New Jersey are as despicable as the Republicans in Wisconsin and North Carolina. They care nothing about the citizens of their state, they care only about power. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
1
I thought we gave up this “eye for an eye” mentality long ago. Everyone should opt for fair districting at the state and national levels. Reject this proposal.
1
I respectfully disagree. It's something far more than the, 'eye for an eye." argument.
It's called, 'fighting fire with fire.'
@Glenn Thomas .... No, what you’re talking about Glenn is a race to the bottom. Think again. Bad idea.
I read but did not study the so-called analyses provided by the article, and just like the typical bond issues placed on the ballot for the voters to "decide", I am incompetent to do so. Other than in Hudson County, I wouldn't be sure how voters will vote. Do I have to know this in order to make a sensible choice ? On a bond issue, I know next to nothing about the state's financial details, so even though I would love to see half the state turned into an outdoor playground, I do have to be concerned if we can afford it; accordingly I need to be expert in the state's finances Now they're asking me to be expert in gerrymandering; whence the data ? The state legislators give themselves special license plates, for that I expect them to handle the details of passing sensible bond issues and of creating FAIR voting districts. To quote Gov. Murphy "I want to win stuff fair and square".
Remember, when you treat politics like a game, you get things like Donald Trump and Mitch McConnell.
Rank order voting is necessary to promote broader political participation and to obtain the benefit of the multiple perspectives provided by a true democratic process. This debate illustrates the dangers of concentrating political power in two parties.
As someone who voted against Republican gerrymandering in Michigan, this is simply appalling. Good citizens don’t gerrymander...on either side of the aisle.
5
Gerrymandering has had a 200+ year history, but since the advent of computers (decades ago), it is now possible to derive geographic districts that are UNEQUIVOCALLY NOT TWISTED INTO BIZARRE SHAPES to accommodate politicians' preferences. Politicians in power will of course conflate Facebook and computer tampering at voting time with drawing unbiased districts. But drawing such districts can be done safely and with suitable verification well in advance of elections. But the politicians just want to keep putting their fingers in the pie and won't allow it.
1
Based on what I read in this article, I will vote NO on this initiative by the Democratic leaders in NJ. As a NJ resident, Progressive and a voter, we are living in a era of overt Republican power grabbing, corruption, and autocratic maneauvers that run in the face of their oaths of office, all working to undermine our democracy.
What can Sweeney and Scutari possibly be thinking? If they do not see how their power grabbing attempt reflects the bad acts of Republicans, then they do not deserve the positions they hold in NJ government. We MUST have fairness and transparency in every vote. Otherwise, the vote becomes irrelevant, people become disenchanted with the "fix" in play so they stop voting. For a democracy to work, each vote must matter and all who can vote encouraged to do so.
There are fair formulas available for use when redistricting is necessary. The 2020 census is around the corner. Rather than rig the districts, the best plan is to be fair and show voters that NJ is not Wisconsin, that we live by the Constitution and consider fair voting and representation the bedrock of our strong democratic system.
Shock, horror, rage, tears, sadness.
The folks who've managed to win an election or two weren't granted by their voters the power to determine the winners of future elections.
The notion "If we have a significant advantage in voters, then you’re going to have a significant difference in legislative districts." is repugnant to the notion of electorally representative democracy.
Congressional Districts should be as compact as possible. A voter's fellows should be their neighbors, people who have a common interest in where they live.
Perhaps the ideal redistricting authority would be twelve persons selected at random from the pool of citizens eligible for jury duty, for the purpose of choosing between competing district maps drawn by computers programmed to produce the most localized districts possible.
Republican or Democrat, lust for power is reprehensible.
1
Bad idea. I'm a union member Democrat and I think it is not needed in our state.
A lesson to Republicans...beware of what you ask for. What your party has done in half the states of the nation can be done in the other half!
1
Why is it that both parties think they are immune to inevitable voter backlash? Hubris, nemesis.
3
This is a terrible idea. It will generate a tit-for-tat gerrymandering war. I am a registered Democrat (based on equal rights and social justice), and grew up as an old-fashioned, civil Republican. This nonsense rips the heart of democracy. Two things I think need to happen to preserve an effective democracy and republic:
1) A constitutional amendment that corporations are NOT persons. That was the silliest notion on the planet, and is a perversion.
2) No financing by corporations of political ads or candidates. I own a successful business, and the idea that my company is the equivalent of a "person" is philosophical and biological nonsense. I'd prefer that the only political ads required to be face to camera or voice only of the candidate.
I would think that the ex fat over or would prevent another republican governor in nj, but voters never learn.
This is a disaster. Ugly enough it is that we read about this nonsense in Wisconsin and elsewhere by Republicans. Democrats in New Jersey and in other states are scrapping a huge opportunity to work toward an end to gerrymandering and other institutionalized voting malpractice. We need enlightened solutions that the people can trust in to underpin our democracy. These actions in New Jersey just carry us all further and more quickly away from reclaiming hope in the future of our nation. Turn back now ...
1
Thanks, NJ Democrats, for solidifying the public's cynicism of politicians. Oh, and for giving the GOP ammunition in their propaganda war.
One would have hoped you are above this.
2
This is the essential problem with our current system. Under control of a two party system many citizen's voices are drowned out by the parties' jousting for power. Districts really need to be drawn by non-partisan groups and perhaps ruled upon by judges for fairness.
In states such as Wisconsin we have the opposite issue, where a large win of Democratic votes resulted in the Republicans STILL holding many seats. The same is true of many other states. Even in Illinois' own 6th Congressional district resembles a snake encompassing only wealthier neighborhoods nearly ensuring a GOP win in that district year after year (although it was upset this year by Sean Casten, a Democrat).
Fairness has not encompassed districts since gerrymandering was invented and the two party system firmly installed. The additional issue of the dilution of urban versus rural votes is a separate issue that needs to be addressed as well. We must find a better way.
Vote it down. Ridiculous. At least Democratic leaders are speaking out against it and the majority of Democrats will not support it. But this is a massive self-own.
I am a Democrat and so ashamed that my party is pulling the same undemocratic shenanigans that the Republicans are so shameless about. Can’t our party be about protecting democracy? Argh!
1
This is totally unacceptable, hypocritical, and against the progress of democracy. Horrible mistake by the Democrats.
This is shameful. If gerrymandering by Republicans is bad, it is even worse when Democrats do it. We're supposed to encourage equitable representation, not suppress it.
You become what you seek to destroy...democrats in NJ will be no better than the GOP they seek to marginalize through permanent gerrymandering.
This is a horrible idea. It is undemocratic and would pragmatically eliminate any high ground for Democrats on this issue.
There ought to be a way to create a computer algorithm to create districts based on population alone, and end this partisan gerrymandering nonsense once and for all. It's sickening, regardless of who's doing it; it's election rigging, in a fashion.
2
Voting no if there is a referendum. No. No. No.
Democrats should not do this. Gerrymandering is undemocratic.
Oh, please don't do this.
Yes we know you can, because you're sage and powerful.
But because of that, we also know you know it would be wrong.
Already Democrats get out over their wheels, using hyperbole and unchecked assertions from the media to attack their weakened opposition, losing credibility and voters in the process.
If you want to express outrage over the outrageous and unAmerican behavior of Republicans across the nation, especially in Wisconsin, North Carolina, Ohio, etc., this is the opposite of how to do it.
Holster your weapons gents; take a breath and count to ten.
And don't do this.
Please.
To everyone in New Jersey...
Please do not vote for this horrible, terrible idea.
It is wrong for Republicans to gerrymander their districts and it will be wrong for the Democrats if they do the same. This is not a gray area. It is just out and out wrong.
Anyone Senator that votes to gerrymander their district should be voted OUT.
1
The arrogance of the Republicans in Wisconsin and Michigan and now the Democrats in New Jersey is appalling. The American people have to let these politicians know that we aren’t going to allow them to continue to whittle away at our democracy for their own narrow and short-sighted partisan power grabs.
We The People need to support real gerrymander, campaign finance and voting rights reform.
We aren’t talking about Civil Servants anymore. These Legislator’s job are so lucrative that they are making sure you keep them. Legislating your way to Prosperity. No one cares about the voters and what they want.
This is so misguided. Democrats need to show by example that we don’t need gerrymandering to win. We need to show that good and fair policies that serve the people will get the votes they need. Enough of this underhanded positioning!
Sigh. Don’t go the way of Wisconsin, North Carolina et al, please.
How incredibly depressing. This is forrder for Fox News and their ilk to "prove", once and for all, that Dems are no better than the GOP. Without even resorting to fake news. More proof of the disparate make-up of the Democratic Party whose only unifying thread for the nonce seems to be anti trumpism.
To me, one of the most important reasons to be a "liberal" is to promote a fair and open electorial process
I'm a diehard Dem. Under normal circumstances, I would be the first to shout "no" to this.
However, the Reps have made it clear that they will fight dirty to build, consolidate, and retain their power, no matter how low they go. Remember that Gingrich announced this strategy back in the 1990s, and they've bveen using it ever since.
I respect Michelle Obama; but I disagree with her "We go high" strategy. Where has that gotten us? Her husband's presidency was obstructed by McConnell, Boehner, Cantor, Ryan, et al. They steal Merrick Garland's seat on the Supreme Court. And no matter how outrageous and disgusting Trump's behavior gets, they still support and defend him.
Meanwhile, no matter how fairly respectful we behave, their constituents continue to hate us; go read the vile things they've been posting on Fox News every day for the past 15 years. We offer them healthcare to take care of their black lung disease; we offer them infrastructure jobs; we offer them better education; and they call us unAmerican and threaten violence against us. Have their elected Reps ever spoken out to turn down the hateful rhetoric? No!
If we were fighting against reasonable human beings with any iota of ethical core, I would say "no" to the NJ Dems' gerrymandering. But we're fighting ethicless sociopaths who believe that "alternative facts" are real.
We need to gerrymander them out of existence! Then, once we return sanity to our country, then we can go back to "going high."
@Paul-A Once you start going low, where and how does one realistically stop? Saying that the ends justify the means is a slippery slope. Isn't that the kind of rationale the Bolsheviks claimed gave them the right to enslave the people of the Soviet Union?
I am disappointed Dems are even proposing this! But based on the comments I doubt it will pass because so many Democrats are appalled!
And just as interesting, I have never once seen a conservative comment criticizing Republican gerrymandering or power grabs. Ever.
Terrible idea. I’m a dem and don’t want to be associated with the type of undemocratic tactics that the republicans have been wielding of late.
Is this the best of NJ?
We can only hope the voters of New Jersey will reject the undemocratic practices advanced so successfully by the GOP!
I look forward to us uniting as a Country that upholds the highest standards as a guiding light to the World as we exit 38 years of corruption fueled by greed and racism.
2
No Gerrymandering!
I strongly support Democratic Party ideals and ideas. This idea is one from the GoP, let them have it. Partly politics is the fight over ideas, not anti-democratic cheating.
Talk about anti-american!
2
Gerrymandering is cheating. Democrats shouldn't need cheating to win elections. Sound, fair policy should win elections! No gerrymandering!
2
Winston Churchill once said that Democracy was the worst form of government, except for all the others. We have to honor the Democratic process, or we won't have a democracy...we'll have something worse.
1
In politics, no process argument is ever sincere.
It’s unacceptable whether done by a Republican or a Democrat. Gerrymandering deprives citizens of the Constitutional right to one person, one vote.
Electoral districts should be drawn on a non-partisan basis (as can best be approximated—California’s approach may be a good approach). The practice of gerrymandering must be banned in order for democracy (little “d” democracy) to function properly. Enough with the dirty tricks.
2
Unlike Republicans, Democrats win on ideas and policies. To act like the Republicans do in trying to fix election outcomes by gerrymandering is beneath the Democrats and is antithetical to the ideals of the Democratic Party. If the motive here is to take revenge on the Republicans for the bad behavior by behaving like they do, it is misguided and unacceptable.
2
I'm a left wing Democrat. Unless there is something I'm not getting here, this is a terrible idea. Non-partisan districting commissions. That seems to be the only way out of this madness.
2
Remember- Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
1
As a Pennsylvanian raised to hold New Jersey in distain, I can't say I'm surprised. But I still hope they'll do the right thing!
This is an extremely bad idea and should be stopped immediately. I’m a life-long liberal and am disgusted by this. I know the Republicans do it all the time, but dems should not stoop to the same level.
2
How quickly can the Democrats destroy their own momentum? Not quickly enough, it seems.
3
The story casts light on the sad fact that in the era of Trump, power for its own sake is becoming the dominant political reality. Public Service? Values? Common Good? One can only wonder if these seemingly outdated concepts can ever make a comeback.
5
It would be easy to slip into a tired joke about, "What do you expect from New Jersey"; that is easy for anyone who does not live in Maryland. In Maryland, gerrymandering is a tradition. During the last round of redistricting, the Maryland legislature, with the full support of Governor Martin O'Malley (liberal Democratic candidate for President) gerrymandered Roscoe Bartlett (R) out of Congress.
As a life-long Maryland Democrat, I'm embarrassed that my home state is no better than Wisconsin. Now that we have a Republican Governor (Larry Hogan), the legislature has snatched away the decision-making authority for school construction -- don't they remember what brought down Vice President Spiro Agnew?
The people of New Jersey have a chance to say no to the gross corruption of gerrymandering. I hope you're better than we Marylanders are.
2
No! —Just no!
As a person who identifies as progressive, I’m against corruption wherever it occurs, regardless of party affiliation.
I’m also against gerrymandering. I despise the power grabs that Republicans are doing and can’t believe NJ Dems think this is a good idea. Put your energy toward having laws in place that prohibit gerrymandering by either side and then win because the voters chose your ideas. Facilitate and secure a voter’s democratic right to choose.
11
Please note that the vast majority of readers’ comments (NYT readers, so mostly liberal) are vehemently against this proposal with many promising to vote against any politician that supports it. Compare this to the reactions of every conservative I’ve ever talked to about the voter suppression and gerrymandering in NC and Wisconsin, which range from a shrug (meh) to a smug chuckle.
Further evidence that liberals and conservatives have very different world views and sense of morality.
13
This proud NJ Democrat says no! We don't cheat - we don't need to. Our ideas are better, more compassionate and provide greater prosperity across all segments of society. We will not follow the awful examples set by Republicans in other states. Cheating is done by the weak and fearful. We Democrats look forward to a fair and vigorous fight to win hearts and minds. We don't fear the future, we embrace it.
10
As a person who supports progressive causes in a state severely gerrymandered by Republicans, I hope New Jersey's legislature does not move down this path. I have seen over the last several decades with Democrats and particularly during this decade with Republicans the frustration, conflict, and even hatred that gerrymandering engenders. Gerrymandering essentially disenfranchises large segments of the population. It is a method of "cheating" for the political party leading this effort. Gerrymandering is wrong, no matter which political party is doing it.
12
Don't do it, New Jersey! When they (the GOP) goes low, we shouldn't. Stand up for principles of democracy. Districts need, everywhere, to be determined by non-partisan committees tasked with equal representation. Democrats, if they are able to resist local power grabbing and corruption (looking at you, NJ), will reap the rewards of the one person-one vote ideal. But if many states, both the Dems and GOP, go for the jugular and try to grab power by diminishing the votes of the other party, we will halt the progress the country has made, over hundreds of years, towards universal suffrage.
10
In the Wisconsin November election, every state-wide office was won by a Democrat, but the State Assembly if 99 members (all of whom were on the ballet) came out to 63% Republican. It is clear to me that Democratic voters were stuffed into large districts to weaken their votes. I for one would appreciate a "fairness test" based on the results of state-wide elections so all votes would have a similar weight. The article here actually stated that this proposal would indeed create this fairness in the 11th paragraph, but somehow concluded this would create an "uneven playing field"? I trust Eric Holder, but this article did not make a solid argument for me against the proposal.
This they shouldn't do. We, the Democratic majority of voters in Wisconsin, are living with the majority having NO VOICE in either house of our state legislature because of gerrymandering, even though we've elected a Democratic governor. Gov.-Elect Evers will have a rough row to hoe because of this. Much needed reforms will be thwarted because of the iron grip the GOP has on the legislature.
I don't care who has the power to redistrict - redistricting should be FAIR to everyone - not just the party in power.
Dems should set the example - starting in New Jersey.
8
Gerrymandering is contrary to the will of the electorate and should not be permitted.Why is this so hard for the Supreme Court to grasp?
14
Reforming rampant gerrymandering is one of the top priorities in saving American democracy. Therefore, if Senator Corey Booker does not publicly speak out against this egregious proposal by some transgressive Democrats, then he certainly shouldn't expect support from real democratic Democrats if he decides to run for national office.
13
This attitude of “it’s okay when we do it” is wrong and adds credence to the idea that both sides are the same. Corruption is corruption and any move by the party in power to manipulate the votes of the minority party will only result in resentment. As someone who reluctantly registered as a Democrat this kind of behavior will drive me from the party.
14
Great, NJ Democrats want to ensure that the GOP can keep gerrymandering. If I lived in the state I’d vote them all out.
If you don’t believe in democracy, get out of the government.
4
As long as humans are involved, voting district maps will be manipulated for partisan advantage. Voting district maps should be drawn by computers programmed to ignore all factors except population density. Among the factors ignored should be race, and ethnicity. There should be no attempt to make voting districts fair for Republicans or Democrats. The Constitution assigns political parties no role in government, and there are more independents than there are Republican or Democrats.
Yes it's true that computer programs can be rigged, but it would take only a glance at the maps to detect software tampering.
1
You need to understand NJ politics a bit to understand what is going on here:
This is not a Democrat thing.
This is not a New Jersey thing.
This is a Sweeney thing.
Sweeney is what has to change - sooner than later.
I have faith Gov. Murphy will do what he says and will indeed stop this if it goes any further. I pray the voters of Mr. Sweeney’s district will do their part when the time comes. We don’t need “Democrats” like him.
12
In my view the author of this article and most of the comments misunderstand what the goal of districting should be, namely to maximize the largest practicable number of truly competitive districts -- districts in which voters can have a reasonable expectation that their votes will matter in general elections. Typically people think that districting should produce "compact" districts or districts which respect existing local government subdivisions like counties, municipalities or wards. These days in a state that might have more or less equal numbers of Republican and Democratic voters, such "compact" or county line-based districts inevitably would result in large supermajorities in large cities where Democrats typically preponderate, and many non-urban districts where Republicans hold working majorities. That is to say "packing" Democrats into a few districts with huge "wasted" majorities. To maximize the number of competitive districts, notions of compactness or following existing minor civil divisions must be jettisoned, and lines must be drawn, however strangely, to create as many really competitive districts as possible. In New Jersey, there are not enough Republicans to populate more than a moderate number truly competitive districts, but that should be the goal.
2
The difference is that Democrats won a majority of the votes in New Jersey, and are likely to continue to do so. Republicans didn't win a majority of votes in Michigan or Wisconsin.
3
@Randy Thompson
What makes it worse in NJ is that the Republicans have no chance of ever coming back; the Democrats intend to nail down their one-party rule with a constitutional amendment.
1
I oppose gerrymandering, regardless of the party it happens to favor. You simply cannot expect a government that is accountable to the people if its leaders know they probably won't get fired for doing a bad job. It's that simple.
9
Due to destructive developments in the practice of partisan politics in our country, particularly over the past few decades, I believe it is in the interest of both major politial parties to work strenuously in their efforts to restore order, fairness and legality to all American partisan activity. This, is obviously, in the best interest of our democracy and the American people.
If it should happen that one party works in the direction of fairness and common sense, while the other refuses to follow suit, it would be a terrible mistake for the fair-minded party to give in to spite and vengefullness. Should they surrender their ideals and lower their standards, should they resolve to battle their misguided opponents by lowering themselves to their immoral, illegal, indefensible practices — then we all surely lose.
If you find that some of your competitors are cheating in a race you feel you must win. JOINING IN THE CHEATING is never the tactic chosen by homorable men and women. Nothing is to be gained from such a victory.
Honesty, honor, loyalty, fairness, justice and truth will prevail — if we stand firm and hold to those beliefs that have proven to endure.
7
It’s wrong. Period. Instead of the piece of excrement masquerading as legislation in the public interest, establish a non-partisan commission of professionals to run the state’s election. Be an example of good government that should be emulated by the other 49 states rather than another poster child for political dysfunction.
5
Illinois is so gerrymandered now that I have not had an actual choice for my congressman for the last 35 years. The machine candidate runs. Once in awhile a rogue Democrat will challenge in a primary, with no support for the party, and then the hand picked candidate gets the nod anyway. When you have no choice, democracy does not mean very much. That is Illinois. Now New Jersey can end democracy. It is voter suppression on a massive scale and we don't hear about it enough in your paper.
4
After chastising other states under Republican control, how can anyone support doing this in NJ? The whole concept is anti-democratic and UnAmerican
8
I am totally opposed to gerrymandering no matter which Party is doing it. New Jersey Dems will have made a huge mistake if they lower themselves to the level of the Republicans. A neutral and independent commission should always draw district lines. New Jersey voters should put a stop to this before it even gets off the ground.
11
I am opposed to gerrymandering. I prefer a fair and orderly redistricting.
I note that the Republicans who have lead New Jersey love gerrymandering. And it has been noted that the Democratic proposal is less egregious than Republican gerrymandering.
But let us be fair.
Perhaps the Republicans complaining would first cause districting to be fair in North Carolina? Otherwise they should be reticent.
3
Most school superintendents in NJ earn more salary than many US state governors. Middle class home owners pay between 12 and 18 thousand annually in property taxes.The recent changes in federal tax laws cap property tax deductions at 10K. Mr. Murphy can not fund his government. One party rule for decades has NJ residents voting with their feet.
3
I am a lifelong democrat and I am appalled by the mere raising of this issue.
If it's on the ballot, I will vote against it.
I will also vote against any politician who supports this. I would rather vote for a republican than for a person who is this hungry for an outright, and what should be illegal, power grab.
I know that I am not alone. Be aware.
15
Am independent non-partisan commission that draw districts is the only appropriate way. I say this as a consistent liberal voter.
14
Thanks New Jersey Democrats for giving Republicans cover for the next time they nullify an election. The GOP here essentially did the same thing here using a different tactic and they were rightly hammered for it. But now Democrats everywhere won't have the moral high ground.
8
It’s hard to see what the problem is, except for assumptions made by the article about what’s fair.
The measure is being put before the voters. The leaders of each party, plus the elected leaders have a hand in selecting the board that draws the districts. District distribution will reflect statewide party popularity, as measured in prior statewide elections.
In no way does that mimic the Wisconsin Plan, whereby 63% of the vote results in 39% of the seats.
Why suppose “fair” is 50/50 Republican/Democratic? If the state is 90/10, shouldn’t the districts reflect that?
Wow. Politicians using power to preserve power. Shocking. Kudos to the Times for exposing Dems to be just as nasty and brutish as Repubs when it comes to agglomerating power. And as this is New Jersey, put more emphasis on the brutish part.
4
@Achilles-
Enough with the false equivalencies. Liberals and conservatives are very different in our world views. We even have brain imaging studies to prove it.
Please note that the vast majority of readers’ comments (NYT readers, so mostly liberal) are vehemently against this proposal with many promising to vote against any politician that supports it. Compare this to the reactions of every conservative I’ve ever talked to about the voter suppression and gerrymandering in NC and Wisconsin, which range from a shrug (meh) or a smug grin.
1
NJ registered Democrat here. Nope. Nope Nope Nope.
12
So it's meet the new boss, same as the old boss, is it?!?!
This is the exact sort of shenanigans that paved the way for a demagogue like Trump to be elected. You are proving the Trump country maxim "politicians are all crooks, they're all the same, can't trust a one of them" to be exactly right which will lead to more elections of amateurs and neophytes. Have a little honor, a little integrity, and reaffirm that our government values democracy, full stop. Do not contribute to the dissolution and disgrace of our institutions.
6
This is NOT right. The Republicans have turned such chicanery in to an art form, however. Until there is national legislation to prevent the disgustingly anti-democratic practice nation-wide, or even constitutional amendments, NJ and other Democrat-controlled states have no choice but to play the GOP's foully partisan game.
1
It's an embarrassment this is even being proposed.
11
Don't for a minute think that the lust for power isn't the key motivation in both parties.
3
No power grab (and I live in the only NJ congressional district that will be represented by a Republican as of next month): gerrymandering has to go the way of the dodo. Non-partisan redistricting commission is the only way to go.
8
The only morallly and democratically acceptable means of allotting voting districts is one that, by design, frustrates attempts at gerrymandering. This could be done by mathematical formula that makes all districts equivalently shaped as rectangles -- differing in size only according to % of census count. Parts of those rectangles that overlapped the state line simply would be excluded from the population count.
Where an odd district did not fit the pattern, that district could alotted to a representative-at-large representing the majority of voters state-wide,
4
This corrupt move makes it pretty clear.
Partisan politicians of both stripes will put party over both country and the ideals of our democracy.
We need a law at the federal level to stop partisans from destroying our democracy!
3
Wrong, wrong, wrong! - And incredibly stupid, too, as NJ - Dems deliver Republicans a beautiful argument of "What about you in NJ?" for whenever Dems elsewhere in the nation try to call out the Republican´s Gerrymandering for what it is: undemocratic manipulation of elections. Wrong, wrong, wrong & oh so stupid!
10
Disgusting.
4
What a stupid proposal -
Firstly, outright unethical,
Secondly, tone deaf when gerrymandering is on the public radar,
Thirdly, politically stupid when the Republicans are on the hot seat for doing the most and worst gerrymandering.
Just do it right. A bipartisan comission, or a neutral computer algorithm.
11
Who in the world said we Dems would be consistent? And why should we unilaterally disarm?
It may not last forever, but from Mitch McConnell on down, every message from the GOP has been that anything goes in a time of political warfare.
So as an NJ Democrat, I am just fine with any maneuver that neuters a party that, by both action and inaction, have almost unanimously enabled President Trump, the first fully authentic threat to our entire democratic system in American history.
You got Kavanaugh. Now you're about to see a level of "take-no-prisoners" nuclear politics -- courtesy of legislators I am proud to say will make Mitch look like milquetoast (Chuck and Nancy) -- that will seek to weaken the GOP in every possible legal way, ethics be damned.
1
@Horace: Your amoral relativism is what happens when there is no knowledge of right and wrong. The problem with Trump is that he simply adopted the moral relativism that was championed by many who were/are aligned with the left. Both sides need to rethink their basis for morals. Humanism is corrupt.
4
@Andrew
You do not provide evidence for your claims:
1) Trump "adopted" the philosophical world-view of "moral relativism." Trump appears to have never given any thought to the concept of morality or moral relativism. He does not seem capable of reflective thought but seems to act on visceral instincts primarily
2) People with political beliefs that are left of yours (i.e. less conservative than yours) do not have a strong moral basis for their lives and "no knowledge of right and wrong."
This latter statement implies that only belief in a religion (which ones?) can provide a basis for a moral life. However, many allegedly god-fearing politicians demonstrate very corrupt behavior and many humanists live very moral lives.
4) "Humanism is corrupt." You do not define 'humanism' as you understand it and you do not define why you see it as corrupt.
@Horace Dewey
We need to move away from gerrymandering, period. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Sorry, this is no better than the power grab that the Republicans are doing in Wisconsin and Michigan, and have attempted to do in N.C., this is why the government is so screwed up now! I; as do most Americans support open elections, open redistricting, and remove the power of gerrymandering. This type of think will only come back and harm those that think rather smugly that they "cannot lose control" and then they do! Demographics fluctuate as populations move, and the only way to keep true power is to empower your voters, take the power out of the hand of the politicians when it comes to redraw the maps during redistricting. This should not be in the hand of the politicians, but in the hands of the voters. Voters should be deciding who their government will be, state or federal, it should not be the politicians deciding who their voters will be!!!
3
Sure, the little devil inside my head says “Yeah, man, just do it! crush ‘em any way you can! they’d do it to you in a Newark minute, haha! Watch ‘em die, the filthy G.O.Pigs!”
But then the little angel in my head has the last word: “But then we would be as bad as they are, so what are we really fighting for? It’s just wrong.”
6
Stop imitating the republicans!
4
I am a new subscriber to NYT - and I am so glad I did subscribe! That's what the real free press looks like. Apparently, NYT generally favors democrats, but I really like that you take them to task as well when they deserve it
4
New Jersey state Democratic politicians, both corrupt and stupid.
Corrupt because they, like many of their Republican colleagues in other states, are trying to subvert basic tenets of democratic governance.
Stupid because no change that they can implement is permanent, and they will inevitably end up being at the pointy end of the stick, at which point they or their successors are going to heartily regret having implemented these initiatives.
Here's a novel idea: Act like Americans and compete in ungerrymandered, unfixed elections.
1
The Dems are driving New Jersey into the ground.
Dems wants ever higher taxes in New Jersey. When and where does it stop? It never stops, and will not stop until Democrats can squeeze every last penny of your earnings into the back pockets of their union backers: the teachers, SEIU, the infinite number of public employees, etc.
Make no mistake, each year, each day, each hour, New Jersey becomes not only more Socialist, but Communist.
2
A truly terrible idea. Gerrymandering only makes politicians unaccountable, which leads to corruption. Vote it down New Jersyites.
6
Many Democrats, me included, have been complaining vehemently about Republicans waging war on Democracy via voter suppression, power grabs and gerrymandering. Now Democrats are doing same. Shame on them. SHAME!!!!!
5
Bad idea. We need to kill gerymandering all together and republicans.will.still.jave a hard time coming out ahead. Double.edged sword. Best throw it back in the lake.
This just wrong!
1
When you wrestle with a pig, you end up covered with mud.
This proposal is rotten and disgraceful. I'm a registered Democrat, but shame on any representative who supports to anti-democratic nonsense.
5
No.
5
This left-of-center-Democrat is furious that NJ Democrats are again demonstrating that they are as corrupt as the GOP. They are fascists in training it seems.
5
Totally immoral. Have you become Republicans?
5
Don't, Dems; just don't. Be better better than the other side.
5
Ridiculous. This is the wrong way to go. Bias is bias; gerrymandering is not democracy.
3
I find this behavior abhorrent on the part of the democrats, just like I find it abhorrent on the part of the republicans but... Unless we can get meaningful national legislation (like proportional voting which would eliminate all gerrymandering forever) to level the playing field, I just don't see why democrats should try and cling to the high ground.
I still occasionally see comments on here about Bill Clinton's affair while Trump's ridiculous behavior has gone infinitely beyond that. It is clear the partisan divide is blinding both sides to reason so it is only appropriate to fight fire with fire. I'd love to see a bill passed in one of these states that reads something like... "If and only if a member of the republican party is elected as the governor shall he be able to adjust the budget." I want to see something so blatantly stupid that the US court system is forced to act and consider the slippery slope we've been sliding down recently because it seems clear to me that monied interests in D.C. have no desire to see any real voting reform.
Bear in mind, while all this silly political bickering is going on our environment is being pushed beyond the point where we can recover.
1
All gerrymandering is wrong, but the Times seems to take particularly relish reporting on any done be Democrats. Republicans have turned it into an art. Enough of this false equivalence reporting. Give the big picture.
1
Sink to their level? Go high when they go low? Give me a break. Republicans are doing this with impunity around the country. It's high time the dems fought back. FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE! Give them a taste of their own medicine!
2
I think this is a clever trick. I read that already one republican had the brutality to object to this process. The more the better. Let them show how hypocritical they are.
2
There’s only a problem if Republicans get any say in the government. After all, every liberal knows all Republicans are deplorable.
1
Gerrymandering needs to be abolish. It is not in the interest of our democracy and is cleary anti-democratic! Both parties are guilty and it needs to stop.
I believe the bible says, “Do unto others as they have done unto you.”
1
This is a great idea, lets build boundaries into the country that cant be changed with differing political opponents on other sides, lets give it a try after all its never been done before, what could go wrong...oh wait a mo
For the Democrats this might be the classic one step forward -three steps back.
1
Besides unnecessary for Democratic success in New Jersey, this will hurt more than help Democrats nationally, because this is a state effort. Republicans are running a nationalized gerrymandering/voter suppression campaign. That means Republicans are unfairly taking advantage in over half the states. Individual state efforts by Democrats cannot counter that; asymmetry guarantees that Republicans win and Democrats lose.
Equally self-defeating is that NJ's clumsy partisan grab will be used all over the country by Republicans to claim that since both sides do it, it's just a normal part of politics, thus gutting a major Democratic campaign effort.
It is so politically dumb, I wonder if the idea originated with the Republican National Committee.
This is the WRONG approach. Stated as a fed-up former Republican who is ashamed that his party went to the dark side AND as a NJ resident, this brings democrats to the same disgusting level as recent Republicans. You don't deserve a lifelong appointment due to your party affiliations! Elect leaders that are competent, develop policies that are rationale and generally supported, remember always that America comes first ... and there'll be no need for gerrymandering. C'mon folks :-(
3
New Jersey Democrats should offer the Michigan, Wisconsin, North Carolina, and Ohio GOP a deal. We’ll get rid of gerrymandering if you do.
1
It’s wrong when “they” do it and it’s wrong when “we” do it. Gerrymandering is wrong. Why are representatives so afraid of the people who elected them?
1
Quit simply- two wrongs don’t make a right. Shame on the NJ legislature.
1
As a WI resident and a liberal (ie someone with every reason to feel angry about gerrymandering), I find this abhorrent. We'll have no ground to stand on politically if we're hypocrites. Redistricting needs to be done as impartially as possible. Full stop.
1
As someone who is very angry about the highly anti-democratic GOP power grab in Wisconsin and Michigan, it would be hypocritical of me not to equally condemn these actions by NJ Dems. To all politicians--WAKE UP! If you do not do your jobs you should be fired...regardless of party.
1
Looks like Democrats are finally learning how to take a page from the G.O.P.'s handbook -- since trying to play fair obviously doesn't work.
I find it curious that so many people scream foul about this kind of thing. What the Democrats here (and Republicans elsewhere) are doing is perfectly legal. The problem isn't their actions, the problem is that the system allows them to do it. Stop whinging because someone does something they can do legitimately, and make the action itself illegal. How you people live in a country where those elected can draw their own electoral lines is beyond me. Your democracy isn't disintegrating - you don't have democracy. What a joke.
As a Democratic voter, this is wrong, creepy, weak and bad. Redistricting should be done by nonpartisan groups. Playing by Republican rules doesn't make us winners, it just makes us Republicans.
1
I am a Democrat and view this behavior as despicable. We need to gin up ballot initiatives in every state to ban gerrymandering, and save our democracy.
1
Awful! Why not use this opportunity to pass a law that ensures fair voting forever? What an example that would set!
1
Typical. Democrats must take lessons in how to grab defeat from the jaws of victory. You get a good solid issue to rally the troops around - gerrymandering - and you decide to take the very low road instead. Sigh.
1
Maybe these politicians have their heads in the sand or too busy to read the newspapers or watch the news and learn about the scorn-causing maneuvers their GOP counterparts in Wisconsin, Michigan and North Carolina have been engaging since their loss in the midterms. But a more plausible explanation is that they, too, really have no faith is democracy and democratic norms. The citizens of New Jersey should send them packing should they be so brazen as to vote for this travesty.
This would destroy any pretense that the Democrats are more principled than Republicans. As an Independent who almost always votes Democratic, I abhor sleazy tactics, and I don't want to see my side stoop to the lowest level embraced by the other side. Win with ideas and policies, not chicanery. I want to be proud of an election victory, not smug.
1
Terrible idea on so many levels. Gerrymandering must end for all parties.
1
Democrats need to fight the Republican power grab tooth and nail, but without imitating it. Contrary to popular belief, you don’t fight fire with fire; you do it with chainsaws. Whatever the equivalent is, Democrats need to get on with it.
1
I'm against this, like most of the Democrats commenting here.
Now I want you to imagine this article rewritten with Republican names in place of Governor Murphy and Eric Holder. See if you can. Here, try this:
#1. “I’m a proud Republican, let there be no doubt. I want to win stuff fair and square, and this is not," said Gov. Walker in Wisconsin.
#2. "The American people want redistricting reforms that help level the playing field so that elections are decided on who has the best ideas, not which party was in charge of drawing the lines. As currently constructed, the proposal in Alabama fails to live up to those standards,” said former Attorney General Jeff Sessions.
Crazy, right? You can't even imagine that happening.
1
I say this as a deep blue liberal: Its not right when the Republicans do it all over the country. And its not right when Democrats do it. Period. End of story.
2
The only candidate the Left considers legitimate is one of their own and this proposal and what has happened in California is proof where the California Republican Party is literally marginalized. Democrats do not favor democracy at all but seek one party states where they seek power no matter what.
New Jersey’s finances are as bad as it’s infrastructure. If the Dems want to permanently claim ownership to what they’ve owned for decades, go for it.
1
No, No, and No on this. From one of the worst offending states, I ask how does this further a robust democracy? How can real change occur if Democrats do this? Neither party has clean hands. As a life-long Democrat I say foul.
1
This is wrong. Period. I live in New Jersey. I have voted Democratic my entire life, and this is unequivocally wrong.
Let the party run on good ideas that benefits the working class and middle class of the state. If you cannot do that, then you do not deserve to govern. Why stoop to the Republicans' level of cheating their way through the system. It HAS to end somewhere. I urge every Democrat voter to denounce and oppose this.
1
Good. Until the Supreme Court or Congress put a limit to partisan gerrymandering, I'm all for the Democrats leveling the playing field. Until the Democrats have a lock on as many, or more legislative seats as the Repubs do, the Repubs have no reason to undo their gerrymanders.
All of the NJ legislative members and other elected officials in NJ should be voted out office for even suggesting this publicly.
NJ is probably one of the worst states to live in for a variety of reasons. This latest Dem initiative is just icing on the cake. Is it any wonder that on an annual basis many more people leave NJ than move in? If I had my druthers, I'd move out tomorrow.
As a Democrat who like so many others posting loathes what Republicans have done, I, like so many of them, agree this is a bad idea. Indeed, why do we even need a nonpartisan board at all? Just come up with a computer program that takes into account where adults live, without any data on age, sex or political. Have the program create districts that make sense with regard to convenience of access to polling stations. Then press "run."
1
I'm as Democratic as they come, but this is a bad idea. New Jersey is one of the few states that has actually taken steps toward getting politicians out of the redistricting business. This proposal is not just unfair, but unnecessary. Good that Murphy opposes this.
1
New Jersey has slowly become a state of diminishing freedoms for citizens, which this Democratic plan is a truly measured up to the power hunger greed.
There is a mathematical model/models that pretty easily determine if there is gerrymandering. If it doesn't pass this kind of test it should be voted down.
It is in no one's best interests to have a lock on power. Contested races encourage moderation, true debate and compromise.
Please don’t redistrict to just stay in power ! Please respect the rule of democracy. It’s not about staying in power. It’s about keeping faith in the system of democracy of this great nation. It’s not about winning or loosing. Look to Poland or Hungary. The idea of democracy and freedom is way bigger. Protect the dream and don’t give in.
1
I will vote against this if it appears as a referendum and urge all other New Jersey voters to do the same. Why are we considering changing what has been one of the more fair, re-districting systems in the country? For decades NJ has had an independent commission that does re-districting and as the story says the tie-breaking vote is always chosen for their independence.
This has resulted in a fair map at the state level and an exceedingly fair map for our Congressional districts. We have usually been 6-6 or 7-5 for the House, with only the 2018 wave finally opening up an 11-1 Democratic advantage. In addition, Gov. Murphy and Sen. Menendez were just easily elected - why on Earth would we open up this issue? It hurts the argument against Republican gerrymandering nationally, and even if you'd want to stoop to this very low level, the state is already trending heavily blue and the Dems dominate the Assembly - it makes no sense. Hopefully Gov. Murphy and sensible NJ Dems will kill this quickly.
1
New Jersey should do this. Then their gerrymandering should be tested all the way up to the Supreme Court and if overturned, the ruling will apply to all states. It is clear that it is going to require a Supreme Court judgement to stop gerrymandering. Politicians, when in power, have no incentive.
As much as I abhor the current incarnation of the Republican Party, Democratic legislators suggesting gerrymandering are simply vengeful. I want more fairness in politics, not less. If this farce of a proposal is presented to the voters next November I will urge my friends to defeat it.
2
We obviously need SCOTUS to rule that districts must be drawn using convex shapes only, in all parts of the country, unless bounded by state lines or hydrography.
None of these people can be trusted with the power to draw lines for themselves.
Gerrymandering is wrong no matter who does it. Before California created a Redistricting Commission in 2008, I lived in a district that had been gerrymandered by Democrats. I hated it. And I'm a Democrat. My House Representative was more conservative than my views because the district had been drawn to pull in more conservative and centrist voters farther south of San Francisco. Fair districts are the fair solution for all voters. Yeah, we the voters. Hey, Democratic Party! Remember us?
1
Drawing district lines should be removed from the political sphere and placed firmly in the hands of mathematicians and technocrats. The people choose their representatives, not the other way around.
1
I’m tired of the “we are better than them” delusions. Let’s meet GOP lack of civility with strength. Let’s push on a federal or constitutional level to disallow gerrymandering - but until then let’s respond to collaboration with collaboration and to nastiness with nastiness. Here must be a price to those who do wrong.
Wow. Political districts are paramountly contorted and irrational. Voters perceived their votes are short changed. Fair enough. Then how do they want to be represented? Maybe like grids that resembles the Cartesian coordinates well known as graph books from Staples, immutable from state's geographic idiosyncrasies. Votes would be counted fairly each grid without the noxious gerrymandering. Representatives would be a function of state's population density. No more of this rural stuff.
They should write this into the changes after picking a "sister state" such as Michigan or Wisconsin:
When our "sister state" makes a constitutional change which hands over redistricting to a non-partisan committee, New Jersey will do the same immediately.
Every Dem supermajority holding state should do the same with another lucky "sister state".
It needs to become a tactic that is completely hands the "control" to the Republicans to have responsibility for ending this egregious practice, while it keeps biting them hard until they do so.
Republicans, as we can see in Wisconsin and Michigan are a bunch of "spirit of the rules" cheats, and the Dems need to respond in ways that both uphold the Dems following the "spirit of the rules" while hitting back hard at the cheats.
1
Gerrymandering not only skews the makeup of the legislature, but it also leads to less competent governance. Legislators inevitably draw maps to protect themselves. A politician with job security doesn't have to convince you to vote for him.
Another article clearly supporting the idea of ***INDEPENDENT *** legislative district commisions. But that's not enough. Here are some further guidelines:
1) Legislative Districts should be drawn as compactly as possible.
2) Legislative Districts should be drawn conforming to prevailing lines of general authority --i.e. county, city, town, and borough lines.
3) Legislative Districts should be drawn conforming to physical attributes of a given area that serve as boundaries to the local population. Examples would include streams, railroad tracks, arterial roads, certain buildings & landmarks . . . etc.
These conficting guidelines should be used to create a clear comprehensive map.
The most important guideline is that the population of each District should deviate no more than 5% from their collective average.
Under these rules, even an area like the Jersey Shore would be considered a legitimate legislative district.
1
The means may be wrong but the ends may be okay if reformed minded democrats and republicans team up to get a decision from the Supreme Court to once and for all end the practice in all the states.
1
If you would be outraged if the opposition party did this, it’s a bad idea.
If this gets on the ballot, I hope the voters of NJ reject it soundly.
5
What really is fair and in accord with the constitution? One person - one vote.
One party rule, by either party, is generally not good for the taxpayers. New Jersey will be losing many high income taxpayers over the next ten years as the boomers retire and move South and West. And I don’t think that businesses will want to stay or expand here in a one party state. The pharma industry, once the creator of many thousands of high paying jobs, has been radically reduced in NJ due to the less than friendly business climate. This plan will accelerate the departures.
4
You can stop almost all of this nonsense at every level of government if you change our elections to multi-member districts with Choice voting, and let computers draw the boundaries.
Maine just adopted Choice voting for statewide elections. They need to add multi-member districts for it to really work, but it's a start.
Once you do that, you can let a computer algorithm draw the boundaries, which is how it should be.
Oh I forgot, given our current political landscape, I have to add "a FAIR computer algorithm". Fair algorithms create very similar shapes throughout a state, it's just a matter of population density and an area equation. None of this is hard, we have these programs and maps now, just not the political will to do the right thing.
5
@Woolshaw
This guy, whoever he is, is onto something. We should listen to him.
It’s wrong. I don’t care which party proposes it. The districts should be drawn either through independent task force or by some other independent means.
5
Functioning democracies have non-partisan oversight of the voting process. Like universal healthcare and not selling guns to everyone, it’s a spectacularly good idea that the rest of the world embraces but the USA stubbornly resists.
1
That is such a mistake.
Districts in all states should be drawn by some agreed upon criteria that have nothing to do with party affiliation but all to do with how to best represent a certain geographic and/or population area. With today's computer visualization and data analysis tools these districts could be drawn with minimal political bias.
Some districts will still be soundly Democratic or Republican by the nature of their residents, but party affiliation should have nothing to do with how the lines inevitably are drawn.
Voters in all states, red and blue, should have the right to pick their representatives, not the other way around. And most important, voters should believe their votes actually matter.
4
I am an Independent in NJ. I will never vote for a Republican while Trump is around, nor a Democrat is this is passed.
4
Power grabbing and gerrymandering are not new to politics (Elbridge Gerry had his district created 200 plus years ago) but they are corrosive to democracy. Incorporating them into a state constitution is poor public policy, regardless of which party it favors. Democrats have had good reason to complain about Republican actions in North Carolina, Wisconsin and Michigan. If they pursue this course of action in New Jersey, they will rightly be called hypocrites and lose any moral authority for advocating good public policy in matters like Redistricting. The public is looking for political leaders who are interested in doing what is right for Democracy and for all people. Hopefully, the Democratic Party in New Jersey will take a step back and do what is right.
1
I say let it be. If you want to see federal legislation to end gerrymandering Republicans need to feel it’s sting as well.
1
I'm a Democrat, I'm a Liberal and Progressive. This is a TERRIBLE idea, worthy only of Republicans who don't believe in the will of the majority!
Legislative districts should NOT be drawn by allowing legislators to pick their voters! It must be truly non-partisan, and this clearly is not.
Gerrymandering is just as wrong when Democrats do it as when Republicans do it. Hiding it in byzantine, complicated procedures doesn't change it from gerrymandering. Gov. Murphy is against it and I agree with him!
Sen. Sweeney is pulling a Mitch McConnell dirty trick to get around sensible limits that would prevent this going to the ballot.
I strongly urge our legislature NOT to do this, and if they do, for voters to vote it down!
5
This could be the start of something big. A kin to self-deportation of Romney fame, Republicans could simply move to Ohio or Virginia. They're never going to do anything but window dressing, so admit defeat and go where they can be more useful. That way we could do away with 'purple states' altogether. Having just Red/Blue states and would cut down on political ads and make campaigning much easier.
1
I am a Democrat making a strong denunciation of this action. Although I don't live in New Jersey, I live in a state with draconian one party rule. I sincerely hope the people of New Jersey restrain this partisanship it has to start somewhere.
We (I) don't participate in elections hoping the result will be unending zero sum gamesmanship. Time for the voters not the partisan thugs to rule.
5
This is not a good idea. Voters should have a real choice, and this doesn't give it to them.
6
As tempting as payback is, New Jersey Democrats must not protest Republicans' dilution and negation of voters rights by diluting and negating voting rights. For many reasons.
First, nothing is eternal in politics. Republicans have won in New Jersey, and they may do so again. Retaliation leads to an eternal cycle in which each side denies the other side voting rides when it gains power. Let's stop the cycle before our democracy is irreparably eroded--or even disappears.
Second, New Jersey Democrats don't need these shenanigans to win. Neither do Republicans in the states in which they're attempting to enshrine themselves in permanent power. In most places, both parties are capable of winning a fair contest.
Third, gerrymandering--and anything else that denies anyone full exercise of voting rights--is morally wrong. Sure, Republicans have done it. It may be true that many state Republican politicians (and national ones, for that matter) are beyond shame. But whatever electoral juice the Democrats can squeeze from this issue will dry up if they're doing it to. Plus, as my mom told me growing up, "Two wrongs don't make a right."
9
It is horrifying that both Republican and Democratic politicians think it's okay to subvert our democracy through gerrymandering. Gerrymandering needs to become illegal and those who practice it thrown out of office.
4
Here's an idea. Why don't the Democrats take this opportunity to govern effectively. That will also make the Republicans a permanent minority.
6
Terrible idea! You can't claim the high road by going your opponent's dirty tactics one better.
Please NJ, my former state: come to your senses.
11
This is a bad move on the Democrats part, the need to learn to pick and choose their battles, not just be low life's lie the republican party. That or we the people will demand independent computer programs to draw the lines.
it's been proven that independent boards aren't so independent, look to the supreme court for proof. They will always allow their personal ideology work it's way into the political sphere.
But in this case, the democrats are wrong to pursue policies similar to the republicans, if they lose their moral compass, they are no better than republicans that have made a conscience choice to subvert democracy.
2
So what's new? I used to live in NJ. The dems are a large reason why I don't now.
4
My state and my party, both, never cease to embarrass me.
2
Terrible idea.
5
Gerrmyanding should be outlawed via a constitutional amendment. It only serves to corrupt democracy and weaken faith in the political process. While we are at, end the grossly undemocratic Senate and Electoral College.
3
I hate gerrymandering when Republicans do it and hate it just as much when Democrats do it!
8
Giving the GOP "Whataboutism" movement more fuel.
4
I am a New Jersey Democrat who never voted Republican. I oppose this power grab by my own party. Let the Republicans be the despicable party. We are not.
6
Shame on you NJ Democrats - one person - one vote.
Proud lifelong Democrat, former Democratic committee-person, twice candidate for public office. "When they go low, we go high." Think about what our great first lady said before you cast your vote.
3
I lived for a time in North Florida, in District 3, which had been heavily gerrymandered to ensure a majority of African-American voters. This made it possible for the corrupt Corinne Brown to remain in office in Congress until her transgressions became too much even for her voter base. And she was sent to prison.
That said, in gerrymandering someone loses, and not just in the election proper.
3
The Dems need to wise up ala Jerry 'Centrist' Brown. What's right is right, don't follow the path of the golf course owner in Bedminster and his immoral followers.
6
What's really surprising is that people commenting here seemed surprised by this. Some are shocked and can't believe their sainted Democrats are trying to hold on to their power. Only evil Republicans do things like that. Why if we start doing that we may actually be hypocrites.
1
Dems finally make some headway shining light on GOP voter suppression tactics and these NJ guys come up with this?! This would only make GOP dig in harder with its efforts in red states.
1
We should condemn gerrymandering by all parties. Why aren’t national leaders in the Democratic Party crusading against this? Please don’t tell me the Democrats are unable to hold the moral high ground in the age of Trump! Come on. Decency still matters.
3
The "legislative maneuver" doesn't seem "obsure" at all. It's pretty straightforward to me.
Can't we just remove the gerrymandering from before and rework the laws to prevent it from happening again? Do we have to take a leaf from their evil book?
2
It's as wrong in New Jersey as it is in Wisconsin, and very discouraging. This is a loss of all values of democracy. Gerrymandered states and states passing laws against the other party are an unraveling of our representative democracy. I'm ashamed of my fellow Democrats.
3
I live in New Jersey's fifth legislative district. I will vote no for this proposal if it is on the ballot.
I have voted for each of my state representatives, who are all Democrats.
To my representatives in the NJ Legislature -- Nilsa Cruz-Wilson, Patricia Egan-Jones, and William Spearman -- please consider yourself on notice. If you vote for this proposal, I will support whoever challenges you in the Democratic primary. If nobody steps forward to challenge you, I'll do it myself.
182
@John...and I think you'd get a lot of support ($'s) for your run...
It's all about Power.
Whether Trump/GOP or the Dems, whether Wisconsin or NJ, politicians will be politicians.
Why be surprised that they act true to form?
2
The difference between democrats and republicans is republicans believe in one party rule. Democrats do not. However, the Republican Party is no longer a functioning second party but a right wing anti-democracy gang. The two party system does not exist thanks to the present state of the GOP.
So what? As a NJ resident, my property taxes only go up. Taxation without proper representation. Ah, life in the Garden State.
2
At the most basic level it is not about the "rightness" of a given position but about the "rightness" of the system in which competing ideas are embedded. The system should not embed a determination of the "rightness" of any given content. Power corrupts. System should be a bulwark against this tendency.
1
The Republican party has managed to gain its current power in state legislatures and the U.S. House of Representatives not through the force of its ideas and policies, but rather through a strategic gaming of the system by targeted voter suppression and gerrymandering. That the Democrats are now attempting to do the same is no less shameful, and does not bode well for the future of our country.
1
If the past is any indication, with only one party permanently in power New Jersey will quickly become insolvent as entrenched interest groups raise salaries and pensions to the point that schools and infrastructure begin to literally crumble. Take a look at the mess that Oregon is in. Taxes are being raised even as schools and all public services are being forced to cut back due to lack of funds. At the end of the day unlike the Federal Government, New Jersey can't print money to pay off debt. The infrastructure in NJ is already in bad shape and it will only get worse.
2
Here in MI, my vote to UNDO gerrymandering, place a ballot initiative on the ballot and have a Gov, AG and Sec'y State that have full powers are being “institutionally strip(ed) away the will of the voter,” said Tom Kean Jr., the Republican leader in the Senate. “The will of the (insert Democrats) Republicans and unaffiliated voters in (insert Michigan) New Jersey would be ignored to the benefit of incumbent majority party legislators forever more.” Do not muddy the waters NJ Dems. The Dems have to be disciplined and united on a no-gerrymandering platform or we will lose. We have to govern our way out of this madness, not start another dumpster fire.
3
Whoa...we are not Republicans! Republicans do this, Democrats don't!!
Democrats, you just watched Stacy Adams lose the governorship of Atlanta to gerrymandering. NC, Georgia, Michigan all have Republican state control due only to it.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That Republicans don't want to follow the Golden Rule doesn't mean you have to line up behind them to copy their "success", just ask your constituents of color in all those red states how they feel about being marginalized and ignored.
This is a horrendous and, frankly, stupid idea.
5
The Republicans could gerrymander thirty states and we would have to hear "Whattabout New Jersey"? on Fox. Thanks, no thanks.
2
Don't do it New Jersey!
Much as I would love to see the Republican Party swept into the cesspool of history, further undermining democracy is not the way to do it.
3
"The Democratic lawmakers’ proposal would amend the New Jersey Constitution, and New Jersey voters would need to approve it through a ballot measure...Democrats have scheduled a vote on the redistricting plan for Monday, the final day the legislature is to meet this year. Then they are likely to bring it up again in early January, satisfying the two-year requirement in less than a month. Should the measure pass in both instances, the proposal could be put on the ballot in November."
So, just so I've got this right...there's a procedural vote on Monday, one sometime next month, and then - assuming BOTH of those votes pass - the public has to approve the amendment in a year. Meanwhile, actual gerrymandering and anti-democratic policies going into effect in WI, MI, NC...are those crickets I hear? Seriously?
Thanks NYT. I look forward to hearing how NJ is the most gerrymandered state in the history of history from now until the end of time.
Dems need to walk the walk on this. End gerrymandering. Its a corruption of our republic, no matter if it is a longstanding practice or not.
2
Come on now is anyone surprised they have a criminal for a Senator too. Thank goodness for Spartacus !
1
It's just as sleazy when my side does it as when their side does it. I would say "well, that's New Jersey for you," but I know better. Power corrupts.
If anyone actually believes that gerrymandering is only practiced by Republicans, they are pretty naive. It is a bad idea in Wisconsin. It is a bad idea in NJ.
2
I'm proud to read that prominent Democrats are speaking publicly in opposition to this. The fact that there is scant such dissension in the Republican ranks around the country when they do this stuff and worse, is no reason for us to follow them down into the sewer. We want better government and our actions should reflect our values.
From a purely political strategy viewpoint, putting this proposal on the ballot is a sure way to guarantee a strong GOP voter turnout for the NJ General Assembly election. I don't know whether to be more embarrassed by the power grab or the stupidity?
3
Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Shame on these so-called democrats.
2
Wrong way, boys, get a clue, come into the democratic fold, or face the electoral blowback.
1
I'm afraid this is the only way to deal with Republicans in this day & age....From the power grabbing that's going on in the lame duck sessions in Michigan and Wisconsin, to Sen McConnell refusing to move any judicial nominees (not just Merrick Garland) during Obama's last 2 years, you must resort to an eye for an eye tactics with the 2018 GOP..
The message to New Jersey Republicans should be If you don't like it here, move to Idaho....
This ain't the GOP of Nelson Rockefeller and Jacob Javits anymore....The insane clown posse is running the GOP today, whether its the state level or DC...
If this is wrong for the gop, it’s wrong for dems. Simple as that.
1
I'm ashamed of NJ Democrats, how could you be as bad as the Republicans? I've been active in Fair Districts PA and our approach has been non partisan. Don't contaminate the party!
2
It doesn't matter what side does it. Immoral and illegal is immoral and illegal. Shame on the Democrats of New Jersey for trying this, and pray that this doesn't give the Republicans extra firepower in their attempts in Wisconsin and Michigan (I mean, it probably will, but the opinions voiced in the comment section here show that at least other Democrats decry this)
1
Unbelievable.
Truly unbelievable.
Is nobody learning nothing??
1
The notion that Democrats are better at being evil than Republicans is laughable. If this goes through, it will hobble Democratic efforts nationwide and for federal office.
Why would they NEED to gerrymander the GOP out?
Bad move. Bad PR. Bad policy.
1
Jersey politics isn’t about Dems vs Reps or social programs vs corporatism or bread vs bombs. It’s about power. Sharing the spoils of victory at any cost. Elections as a blood sport. Dirty tricks. Dog whistle ads. Incessant television, print and radio ads in the weeks leading up to Election Day. While NY is close, there’s no one else who compares to “Joisey”
Wrong is wrong. Regardless of which party proposes it.
1
This hypocrisy is suprising only to people not from New Jersey.
1
Wow. Slippery slope that won't end anytime soon.
Ugh, as a Democrat this makes me cringe. I don't want this any more than I want Republican gerrymandering. Democrat gerrymandering legitimizes Republican attempts at the same: Neither have a place in a truly representative democracy. The national DNC folks have the ability to heavily influence this through promises of future campaign funding, and they should.
How do I put this? As a virtually-always Democrat, we don't have to do this. We shouldn't do this. We shouldn't stoop as low as Republicans.
1
Per the old axiom, If you can't reason with them or beat them, join them...
11
This article does a poor job of explaining what exactly they are trying to do, but does a great job of riling up the reader.
So no, jamming bills through isn't what most voters want.
Gerrymandering districts by cutting them up into geographic Rorshach tests making it so the other party has no chance is also not what voters want. But according to the article, that's not what is proposed. Yet that's what we are taking away.
It even sites a study, which starts of saying: "This constitutional amendment is reputed to ensure a Democratic advantage. It also appears to attempt to prevent a Republican-favoring gerrymander. However, our analysis shows that on both counts, it fails to ensure these goals."
Basically, the cited Princeton study says the current bill still allows for either party to achieve majorities in the state house without majorities of the voters. It also states that in the absence of the amendment, both parties can still gerrymander.
I live in NJ and vote blue pretty much 100% of the time. However I will vote against this. We have to be careful as we are very much in danger of no longer being a true democracy.
Wow, so many Democrats opposing this action. How many Republicans opposed the Wisconsin power grabs?
2
Elephants do it. Donkeys do it. Why shouldn't we do it? With apologies to Cole Porter.
I suspect this will fail, as it should. Independent commissions whose process is subject to public observation and input should be required everywhere. But just proposing this plan will be enough to encourage republicans to continue to gerrymander wherever they can get the advantage. If you can't get elected on your merits, you shouldn't be in office.
2
This is a bad idea. Democrats should put in place fair guidelines to prevent gerrymandering from either side, not show that we can be just as bad as Republicans when we’re in power.
3
So how is it that the Dems differ from the Republicans again in terms of gerrymandering? It seems like principles are situational.
1
DON”T DO THIS!
This a terrible idea. It's wrong when any political party damages the rights of Americans. I know that the political parties have done this type of political maneuver since the beginning of our nation under the constitution. That does not make correct or moral. There neutral ways to set boundaries and those processes should be the ones put into the state constitution.
1
Gerrymandering and unlimted mega donor money are working together to poison our democracy. They are crucial issues, and the media must discuss how the rationalizations can be refuted.
An extremist rw GOP has been dominating our 3 branches and state govts also. It has its own state media FOX News across the land.
Our president further weakens our democracy.
Both parties vie for big money donors and for power.
Other democracies use independent commissions, more public funding for elections, limits on private donations.
They also ban the paid political campaign ads that are our biggest election expense. And which make profit for our media.
The system works together.
This is wrong and should be voted in. I am glad leading democrats are speaking out against this plan. More should come out against it. Neutral commission to draw lines that will serve the people. It isn't that hard.
This is like being a kid and pleading with your parents to drink at a friend’s party “because everyone else does it”. Since when was that ever an adult reason to do wrong things?
NJ voters should be the adult and tell their representatives to earn their votes with sound ideas and practices. Wrong is wrong, even if it is only marginally less wrong. NJ will regret it in the long term if they allow gerrymandering. Today’s Democrats may be tomorrow’s GOP...
2
Paybacks where evil prevails, are okay, but this dark money cheating political game will make things more difficult for Democrats in the big picture.
Governor Phil Murphy and Eric Holder are the voice of reason as they tell we Democrats to rethink the plan and play fair. This move by Norcross funded Steve Sweeney. We are better than than cheating ... Democrats must take the high road, and will in New Jersey.
I am a life-long Democrat from Ocean County. A sea of red surrounds me. It's difficult sometimes. I have occasionally voted for county-level R's with scruples (like the Freeholder John Bartlett, may he rest in peace) back in the 70's and 80's. Many of my colleagues, friends and neighbors supported the likes of Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Bush 41. W Bush 43, this disaster Trump, Rand Paul, Ross Perot, the hate-filled Chris Christie, the out-of-touch Christine Todd Whitman, recently that nasty Tom Mac Arthur, was narrowly defeated, and I've witnessed quite a few loudmouth ol' fossils in local municipal positions (a swamp of its own) wrap themselves around the flag stay essentially unopposed.
Influence those you can in New Jersey to reject this power grab which will sully the Party's reputation. I know I will. I have been centrist on many issues over the last few decades, a progressive on most, and a proponent of social democracy. (although Bernie Sanders had his day).
Dark money and gerrymandering will not stand in New Jersey.
5
Paybacks where evil prevails, are okay, but this dark money cheating political game will make things more difficult for Democrats in the big picture.
Governor Phil Murphy and Eric Holder are the voice of reason as they tell we Democrats to rethink the plan and play fair. This move by Norcross funded Steve Sweeney. We are better than than cheating ... Democrats must take the high road, and will in New Jersey.
I am a life-long Democrat from Ocean County. A sea of red surrounds me. It's difficult sometimes. I have occasionally voted for county-level R's with scruples (like the Freeholder John Bartlett, may he rest in peace) back in the 70's and 80's. Many of my colleagues, friends and neighbors supported the likes of Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan, Bush 41. W Bush 43, this disaster Trump, Rand Paul, Ross Perot, the hate-filled Chris Christie, the out-of-touch Christine Todd Whitman, recently that nasty Tom Mac Arthur, was narrowly defeated, and I've witnessed quite a few loudmouth ol' fossils in local municipal positions (a swamp of its own) wrap themselves around the flag stay essentially unopposed.
Influence those you can in New Jersey to reject this power grab which will sully the Party's reputation. I know I will. I have been centrist on many issues over the last few decades, a progressive on most, and a proponent of social democracy. (although Bernie Sanders had his day).
Dark money and gerrymandering will not stand in New Jersey.
1
Gerrymandering is wrong. If Democrats want to stay in power using the same techniques as Republicans, that shows they don't understand how democracy is supposed to work.
4
"Republicans have also come under fire for legislative gerrymandering in states like North Carolina."?
No. Republicans HAVE DEFINITELY used gerrymandering in states like North Carolina, Wisconsin, Georgia, and others to steal elections. They've come under fire by some for this blatant attack on government.
There's a difference between the two versions, in terms of what actually happened.
All states should follow the solution adopted by Arizona, California, and Idaho: appoint independent commissions for determining House districts. Any thing else is deeply unfair, as is the electoral college, which we should replace with a president elected by the nationwide popular vote.
2
This is as wrong as Republicans doing it. Either we have a democracy or we don't. Balkanizing the country into strongholds for this or that party is a freezing of politics, and hardly much different than warlords holding regional power in Afghanistan.
Put it on the ballot and see what the voters think. NJ boasts among the best public schools in the nation and is one of the most densely populated states for good reason. We who live here also welcome diversity and don't fear change. Let the NJ voters decide.
2
I live in NJ and am totally against this. Fair and square means INDEPENDENT district assignment. Sometimes we really do have to go high if we want to fight for fairness in other states. I would absolutely love it if Dems won every district, but it needs to be FAIR.
1
I'm as liberal as they come and vote for democrats 90% of the time. But I don't want democrats gerrymandering any more than I want republicans doing it.
If the candidates get to pick their constituents instead of the other way around, it's not a democracy. And what's to stop the democrats from completely ignoring the voters once they do this? We need a neutral 3rd party to be in charge of drawing the district maps. Period!
1
The Democratic Party is a threat to democracy, exceeded only by the GOP and the corporations that own then both.
As a Democrat and business owner I'm strongly opposed to this pro-gerrymandering proposal from elements within the New Jersey legislature. Democrats will undercut their best efforts to end partisan gerrymandering if they pass this. Independent redistricting commissions are the best way to restore fairness ito our electoral processes.
3
What a terrible idea. If we Democrats want to show that we are better than Republicans, then we have to BE better than Republicans, not as bad or even worse.
It seems obvious to me, but I suppose it's necessary to say that the Democratic Party has to stand for democracy, even when it might seem counter-intuitive or counter-productive. That is especially true now, when democracy is under attack as it has not been for many decades.
Instead of writing gerrymandering into the state constitution, New Jersey Democrats should write a non-partisan mechanism for drawing district lines (for state and national offices) into the constitution. And Democrats nationally should support an amendment to the United States Constitution providing for non-partisan drawing of district lines for state and federal elections.
1
Would have been nice if the author of this article had explained exactly what is problematic with the proposal, other than "gerrymandering is the most horriffic, grave threat to our democracy, because establishment Democrats say so." Even if NJ Dems are successful with this proposal, most of them are indistinguishable from Republicans anyway, so not sure what difference it will make. For as long as we have election districts, politicians will try to influence their makeup to their advantage, and do it badly. Mainly because the electoral makeup of districts (like political democracy itself) is extraordinarily dynamic and difficult to predict. (To wit, Dems retook the House even after histrionic claims by Dems in 2012 that redistricting would make it impossible for them to take majority until after 2020). The media's focus on this issue serves as a red herring for the real reason Dems cannot sustain a congressional majority: their claim to be the party of the working class majority is no longer credible. Especially when they fail to fix the ways in which both parties limit voter choice and participation through closed primaries, arbitrary registration deadlines, inadequate voting equipment and most importantly, scheduling elections for one day, on a Tuesday in November, with poorly trained poll workers, and long lines. Yes I'm talking about NY, which had among the lowest voter turnouts (around 35-40% of eligible voters based on my own analysis) in the recent midterms.
Let's put an end to hyper partisan Gerrymandering everywhere whether it be Republican, Democratic or whatever. I'd hoped for better from Democrats but it seems the only people that can change it sit on the Supreme Court.
4
Don't Do This!
If you do, you will have joined the Republicans on the path to destroying democracy in this country, and without a civil war we'll never get it back.
Republicans have to be told that gerrymandering is wrong, and Democrats have to be the ones to tell them.
I'm not being hyperbolic when I say that if you decide to go down this road instead, we WILL lose government of and by the people--probably forever!
1
Gerrymandering is a bad idea in North Carolina; it's a bad idea in Wisconsin; the courts have indicated that it was a bad idea in Pennsylvania and it's a bad idea New Jersey.
4
As a registered Democrat, who grew up in South Jersey and voted in nearly every NJ election until I retired from active duty out here, I can say this is a BAD IDEA. Gerrymandering by either party is wrong and contrary to the principles of good government.
8
Now it's time for them to investigate Trump's taxpayer-funded "opportunity zones," which seem to be an opportunity for him to make yet more money off the American taxpayer. His golf clubs, Jared Kushner's real estate developments and the Miami investments of a well-known Trump crony would appear to be the main beneficiaries of something previously touted as federal help for economically depressed regions.
2
I don't like gerrymandering period. Vote the GOPOUT!
2
What a stunning display of cluelessness. Who is voting for these sociopaths?
4
Says the guy from Florida.
2
As an NJ Dem., I think this idea is insane
8
This is so unbelievably stupid...oh wait...it IS believable. These people may be Democrats, but they're not democrats. We Democratic voters in any state don't want gerrymandering - we're sick of it. It works against us as often as for us, leads to wild changes in districts, acts as potent voter suppression, and in general is just unfair. I don't want Republican voters disenfranchised, no matter how much I dislike their votes.
At the very least, these politicians should recognize that any action they take to permanently secure their majority will inevitably come back to bite them, as well as give ammunition to Republican gerrymanders in other states where Democrats are striving to bring fairness and democracy to redistricting.
Their stupidity is entirely believable, but it's also stunning.
11
Gerrymandering? Quelle horreur!!! Next thing you know they'll strip all power from elected officials they don't like. Nasty Democrats.
3
Please don’t do this. Win fair, or lose down the line. Not least by becoming what you hate.
1
I guess the Democrats are as full of garbage as the Republicans they criticize.
3
Hard to argue against this.
Democrats are real dumb about gerrymandering. They gerrymander states where they already have crushing majorities, like Maryland and now New Jersey. The GOP gerrymandered states that are really at least somewhat close, but still handed them victories in the red wave of 2010, like North Carolina and Wisconsin.
There was a big chance of the GOP losing Wisconsin and North Carolina this year without gerrymandering. There is no chance of the Dems ever losing NJ or MD even if the GOP has an extra seat or two. It's just stupid politics.
2
I am a NJ Democrat and would never vote for such a stupid law. Core democratic values are based on pragmatism as well as idealism that support the American people....not one group or party and our values certainly do not support cynical power grabs attained by putting your thumb on the scale. If this makes it to the ballot I will encourage my fellow New Jerseyans to vote no.
6
This is a national issue. It is a voting rights issue. We need federal laws to ensure fair elections in the whole country. Along with campaign finance reform, it is necessary to ensure that elections are fair and transparent. Gerrymandering and unlimited soft money in politics are eating away at us. The government (which is us) has to focus on the myriad problems we all face, and how best to solve them.
2
The sad reality is that gerrymandering has been going on for years and has been utilized by both parties in numerous states. The simple answer is to turn this task over to independent commissions that, by the way, are not appointed and stacked by the two political parties. It would be nice if they could be subjected to judicial oversight though the rapid politicalization of the judiciary may make this unworkable. However, elected legislative representatives should be hands off any and all parts of the process, putting voters back in control.
Excessive gerrymandering is a blight which undermines the legitimacy of our elections, no matter who is gaming the system. Under the weight of manipulations of this type, democracy may not be sustainable.
3
Sounds like such a Republican thing to do.
As a Democrat and native of NJ, I hope this effort goes down in flames.
1
What a moronic move. Why, when the GOP is being castigated for gerrymandering in many states, would New Jersey Democrats give them an out? The numbers are on the side of Democrats and Democratic ideas. We should not need to resort to gerrymandering.
It is disgusting, pure and simple. But coming from longtime Christie acolyte Stephen Sweeney, it is not surprising.
Fighting today's GOP is democracy's duty #1. But let's not forget cleaning up the Democratic Party's remaining rotten apples.
1
Republicans started it, in Wisconsin and North Carolina.
Democrats would be stupid not to do that same.
2
YES, YES, YES!!!
It's about time Dems somewhere start playing hardball the way R's understand.
R's don't ever worry about making Dems angry or stepping on their toes. Or STEALING power wherever they can. And Dems never have enough fight in them to give the R's a proverbial black eye in return.
The GOP Elephant has no reason to ever stop stealing the Dems lunch money until we cut off their trunk.
It's about time.
2
I am opposed to this stupid idea for the same reasons I oppose the Republican’s gerrymandering, it is anti-democratic, small “d.” Those elected are supposed to be chosen by the citizens, not the citizens selected by the, what is an “elected” person called who essentially can’t lose? Autocrat?
Sweeney, maybe you need to be retired if all you can be is the same as the worst of the Republicans.
1
Great idea! Give me a D! Give me a U! Give me an M! Okay! What, it ends with a B? No, that can’t be right, if it were we’d say “Dum-B idea,” but as sure as I’m an elected New Jersey Democrat we don’t say that. In fact, we don’t say that because it’s a great idea!
Sigh. As Sun Ra similarly opined, this is the last time I’m coming to this planet.
1
In the Immortal Words of Tony Soprane- "...Well, I've lived in Jersey all my life..."
[sigh]...Democrats still haven’t learned...You don’t ASK the voters whether you can gerrymander! You just do it! Like the Republicans do.
1
Please, Jersey Dems, DON'T DO THIS. Let's be on the side of right
1
This is the height of stupidity and illustrates exactly what is wrong with American politics. Get in power and grab more just for the sake of power. They risk turning NJ voters against them just as the Republicans have.
How about they spend their time rooting out corruption and working to make New Jersey better for all people then they will win elections the way they should.
Absolutely no good at all! No me tooism, thank you! No ' the other guy does it' excuses!
Outlaw Gerrymandering! No one party rule!
2
If you're killing democracy it does't make any difference if your a D or an R; democracy is still dying.
Terrible idea! What is this, ‘fighting fire with fire’?
Democrats have spent a fair amount of time explaining to the American people that Republicans stand for their own power, not the people. This type of behavior, though, exposes them as hypocrites and makes politics look like the zero-sum game we all fear it is.
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@Dan
Here's the issue for me. I legitimately can't tell if you are actually opposed to the idea as a democrat or just a trolling republican trying to back democrats into trying to stay on the moral high ground.
If you're the later you can stop reading because I don't need to waste breath on this discussion. If you're the former, I'd love to see meaningful voting reform to help negate the effect of gerrymandering and money in politics. Democrats had the chance to pass this reform unopposed during Obama's super majority and simply _chose_not_to_do_it_ monied interests are deeply entrenched in both parties but the republicans are currently trying to rig american politics so that democrats can't actually win. This is super dangerous and a legitimate threat to our country, it needs to be opposed by any means necessary and while it will cost the moral high ground... Well, Trump is the president, so clearly moral high ground doesn't mean a lot in this day and age.
1
@Dan
I think you hit the old nail on the head.
I do not live in NJ. That said the grass roots
Democrats of that state need to hit their representatives
on the side of the head. The vision is inclusion not exclusion. Fairness not manipulation. Do not let them
thinking by mimicking Republican tactics they will win votes.
3
@Dan Finally the truth. Democrats are just as guilty as Republicans when it comes to gerrymandering. That isn't a myth. Gerrymandering by a party (say, Republicans) creates safe Democratic seats. It's in a Democrat politician's self interest to help the Republicans gerrymander, even though collectively the Democrats suffer. The Democrats don't oppose gerrymandering itself; the only oppose gerrymandering when the other guys do it. Over the past 100 years the Democrats have held power twice as long as the GOP in both the Senate & the House. How was that done? Get real. In Democrat-controlled states, Dems still gerrymander & show no signs of stopping that practice. Their only real complaint is what it's always been:The Democrats have fewer & fewer opportunities to game the system because the Republicans control more & more of the states. Right now it's impossible to fight gerrymandering, because you are bucking established Dems who would see their districts level out. The Democratic Party has zero interest in fixing this problem because our side wants the ability to cheat if & when they gain control of state legislatures. The only way to stop this problem once & for all is to have term limits for all politicians. For more insight into this issue I urge everyone to read a brilliant NYT article on by Nate Silver. It proves beyond a reasonable doubt how corrupt both parties are when it comes to gerrymandering.
https://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/27/as-swing-districts-
3
As hard as this gerrymandering is likely to prove for democrats in power in NJ, the loudest opposition (tut tutting to full scale whining) will come from holier-than-thou democrats everywhere.
The Democrats need to be the party that wins by adopting policies that benefit all Americans, as was intended by our founders, not by cheating.
3
I live in Oregon so I don’t have a dog in the race, however, I am asking you to not mariginalize your political opponents for short term gain, no matter how satisfying the act makes you feel.
We live in a Democracy so I fear the abuse of power from any direction.
1
I don't care if it helps my team or not, gerrymandering is ALWAYS wrong. Do better, Jersey.
4
And this is why people are worried about the death of democracy. Because as soon as one side does it, the other side says "why not us?"
Stop it, New Jersey. You're helping no one.
3
Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
All power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely.”
This is a very bad idea, because a Democratic Party that is not accountable to its own voters runs the risk of becoming as dysfunctional and corrupt as the GOP currently is. We can not afford to return to the machine politics of the past. We must hold our own party accountable when they break the rules.
3
Gerrymandering should not be allowed.
2
This is bad stuff. While I voted Democratic in the state elections and am happy to see the change, gerrymandering of this sort and playing games with the timing to satisfy requirements is just plain old wrong. Let's ask the supporters of this bill, "Can you look your Mother and Grandmother in the eye and say truthfully that what you are doing is legitimate? And not just stooping to the depths at which you complain about the folks across the aisle?"
“They are seeking to make Republicans a permanent minority by essentially writing gerrymandering into the State Constitution”. This must not be allowed to happen. The Democrats stooping to GOP tactics is an abrogation of our Democratic principals.
1
I guess I have to stop pretending the Democrats are morally superior to the Republicans. Both parties are corrupt, perhaps the Republicans slightly more.
This makes me even more inclined to vote third party for a second there I had re-embraced the Dems as the more just and moral party but now I realize that they are two sides of the same coin. Power corrupts. How do the Democrats hope to win back the White House when they try to out corrupt the Republicans. The Republican have more practice and are better at it. My only hope is that the Democratsic Socialists will take over the party or form their own.
If you only believe in democracy when your side wins, you don't believe in democracy.
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@Ken L
Amen!
3
Stop this nonsense now or we'll be brainstorming how to replace both major political parties.
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@Charlotte
I mean, is that really such a horrible idea?
11
@Charlotte
How, pray tell, might that discussion begin?
In which fantasy world?
2
@Charlotte I'm on it.
3
Glad to hear that Dems are finally playing the right game. If Republicans don't like it they can join an effort to remove partisanship from the process, until then this is what Dems MUST do.
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@Chrissy
This is just plain WRONG on every level. We need a nationwide move to scrap all gerrymandering in all states. If Democrats want to take some plays from the Republican playbook, how about blocking legislation and judicial appointments with unreasonable amendments, delay tactics and parliamentary manipulation. But cheating on elections should be off the table.
19
@Chrissy NO! I am a Democrat (though I don't live in NJ) and this is a terrible thing. Sinking to the un-democratic tactics of the GOP is not the right way to go. Gerrymandering is a bad thing no matter which party does it.
22
@Chrissy
Why and how is this the right game ?
Is your logic that it's bad if Republican do it but acceptable if Democrats do it? If so, it's faulty at best and will contribute to further division at the worst.
Wrong is wrong regardless of which side is doing it. At least for fair minded people.
14
Many states including California have had great (and fair) success using an independent redistricting commission. What possible "above-board" reason could New Jersey have for reinventing the wheel? Just do what is fair and what works. You'll still get your Democratic officeholders not because New Jersey is turning blue but because Republicans have proven themselves incapable of governing and are turning off suburban voters in droves with their divisiveness and destructive policies.
3
This is fundamentally anti-American and I hope the voters bounce out of office anyone who votes for this plan.
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@B. It is un-American, but the only way Republicans will change is if it is no longer worthwhile and they get slaughtered too.
We are in a war for Democracy. The side that plays fair will lose. That is why our country is in such dire straits. Republicans gerrymandered the country and have subverted the will of the people.
There is no need for that. All states need a non-partisan commission to draw the district lines. NJ is plenty blue. Democrats should be more confident in their platform and their ability to draw in new voters. We should be above gerrymandering.
203
I disagree, the party of White supremacy (the GOP) is the one that is more likely to go with gerrymandering.
7
@Allen...yes, and the Dems should run on that. All voters must be made aware of the need for independent commissions to draw districts. That should be a winning issue.
12
@asdfj
You are talking about the GOP, of course. And you are most definitely right - they certainly are not above gerrymandering. Democrats should go a different route, and support independent commissions for redistricting. Actually, the bipartisan panel New Jersey already has seems a good idea, with the added safeguard that the minority party of the legislature has the final approval of new district maps.
8
Democratic gerrymandering is still gerrymandering; if Democrats are to be different, they must show integrity. This is a bad move.
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@Cameron
integrity?
Wake up and smell the coffee.....they are politicians who don’t want to or have the skill to get a regular job
As a victim of extreme Republican gerrymandering here in Wisconsin, I think this is a terrible idea, and will make it harder for us to argue against gerrymandering here. The practice is fundamentally unfair and undemocratic, and robs voters of the value of their vote, no matter which party does it. Period. I hope voters in NJ resoundingly reject this terrible idea.
272
So what exactly is the difference between what is going on in New Jersey and Wisconsin? Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. As a democrat I am very disturbed about what my Party leaders are capable of sometimes.
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@Tom,
There is exactly no difference whatsoever.
Gerrymandering is bad, wherever it shows itself. How are Democrats complaining about Republican's sleazy tactic going to look themselves in the mirror when stuff like this happens?
I am a leftist progressive and a registered Democrat, and I say Steven M. Sweeney is a fool, who should be voted out of office ASAP, along with everyone who stands with him.
The best thing Democrats can do while holding a state majority is institute non-partisan redistricting.
29
@Tom There is no difference. It is a bad idea and I hope the NJ Dems wake up and reverse course.
4
For the record. Here I am a Democrat making a public denunciation of this action. Use a non-partisan board to create equitable maps and let the people's voice be heard.
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@Robert
This has worked well in progressive California, as well as the conservative stronghold of Arizona. Additional states have adopted this strategy ( I forget which) because -everyone- is tired of hearing the g-word.
7
You saved me the trouble of declaring my opposition to this action of Democrats. I am having trouble understanding why the voices of people are so unheard, and I don't mean only Trump voters who say they were unheard at election time. I mean ALL of us that aren't.
5
I'm a born-and-raised Trentonite. As much as I might want to indulge in a knee-jerk reaction against what the GOP is doing around the country, I loathe the idea of pulling one of their power grabs. It's anti-democracy, plain and simple.
Let's not sink to their level. Our resources should be spent reversing this shameful nonsense around the nation, not creating more divisiveness.
392
I have a better idea. New Jersey Democrats may be justified in regarding turnabout as fair play, but it would be better to modify their state constitution to make gerrymandering by either party illegal.
464
@M. That would be the just thing to do. Gerrymandering is wrong no matter the party.
6
My hope is that the Republicans learn what it feels like when they abandon the political version of the Golden Rule ("don't do to the other party what you don't want they to do to you when they take power"). The political norm manifest in this rule was shattered by the Republicans when they used their majorities to undo and undermine all that had gone before them by any means they could find.
The shoe is now on the other foot, at least in some states. Let's see how the Republicans like it. They have thrown all political wisdom, courtesy, and good sense away in their rush to destroy our nation. If the Democrats treat them as they treated the Democrats, they have only themselves to blame.
1
It is wrong when Republicans do it. It is wrong when Democrats do it. I hope this does not stand.
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Gerrymandering is when districts are engineered to ensure that a minority party wins. This proposal is designed to ensure that a majority party will win. It is not the same thing. Nevertheless it is a bad idea to engineer districts, one way or the other, to ensure a certain outcome.
2
Just because they can doesn't mean they should. Democrats are strong and usually smart in NJ; let's hope they don't blow that now. There are much better ways to do this; amending the constitution to require non-partisan establishment of districts at each census would be the best. Ramming through partisanship as law sinks to the disgraceful level of Republicans. We're better than that - aren't we?
3
Though I'm not convinced this plan is the best idea, a reasonably close read of the article shows that it's not gerrymandering as done by Republicans. The GOP approach is designed to give the party majority power when they have a minority of voters. The New Jersey plan appears more designed to ensure that the party that gets the majority of votes statewide also has the majority of the legislature.
It is not a good thing that there is not a viable Republican party in this country that wants to govern responsibly. I'm a Democrat but many Democratic plans or governance can be problematic. At present, they are the only ethical choice anywhere. Our Republic is under threat from internal and external forces that are well documented and we need two loyal opposition parties (our system only really supports this and third party is just a spoiler).
Enough with the double standards! It’s either everybody gerrymanders or nobody does. If Republicans have gerrymandering as a core tenet of their election strategy, Democrats must do the same or else they will continue to lose. If they Republicans don’t like it, the party leaders in Congress can work together to pass a new national law governing districts for federal offices as is their right under the Constitution. If Democrats refuse to play the game then they have ceded everything to the Republicans.
1
Is it even possible to do this with districts that are still reasonably compact and don't involve major slicing and dicing of communities?
"The evil that men do lives after them" but this part doesn't work for Republicans: "The good is oft interred with their bones."
NJ suffered under Christie.
But two wrongs don't make a right.
3
Instead of cheating, do it the right way. Voter approved amendments to the state constitution to establish non-partisian commission to set the congressional house maps and a second non-partisian commission to set the maps for representatives in the state legislature. We just did this in Colorado and it passed overwhelmingly.
With such a strong majority, NJ Dems will still elect plenty of Dem politicians, provided these politicians represent their constituents well. Perhaps not quite as many D politicians without gerrymandering. But there's no asterisk after their names. And that's really really important.
And besides being the right thing to do, as the party of "democracy" and "anti-gerrymandering" the Democrats will be well-positioned in 2020, both locally and nationally.
2
Sorry, until the Republican party stops their gerrymandering and voter suppression, WE must do it to them and see how they like it.
If this sounds harsh, them this comes under the category of too bad.
My Father used to say: Two wrongs don't make one right.
By sinking to the same level as Republicans in Georgia and North Carolina we don't accomplish anything other than undermining democracy.
3
You can’t win if you refuse to play the game. In other words, it takes two to tango. The Democrats’ refusal to accept that Republicans have been acting in bad faith for years is the main reason they have not had control of Congress since 2010.
With all of my complaining about blatant Republican gerrymandering throughout the country giving minority viewpoints preference of the majority's will, I'm ashamed to see this development in my own state. Don't do it.
3
Let. me add my voice to the other New Jersey Democrats who think this is a really, really terrible idea. Bad policy and bad politics. I'm hoping the outcry in response to this being pulled out from under the slimy rock where it apparently has been hiding will be enough to bring the legislators to their senses. If not, be assured I will vote against it in the fall
A procedural question for those who know more than I. Governor Murphy says he is opposed to this action. Does it not require his signature for passage? Can veto it and so save the legislatures from themselves? It it would appear not from the article, but I'd like to know.
So sadly, my party acts corruptly too. I take some comfort that so many Democrats are quoted in the article criticizing the plan...I don't see this from the GOP.
You want to have your elected leaders accountable to the people, so there needs to be an opposition.
1
New Jersey lawmakers should consign this legislation to the shredder. They don’t need it; and the state and country need to be reinforcing the fairness and integrity of our elections, not trying to rig them one way or another. No more gerrymandering, by either party!
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This has to be stopped. It doesn't matter which side of aisle you are on. This will cement a solely 2 party system into place forever. And that's not democracy.
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This is a serious mistake by Democrats in New Jersey. We need to make redistricting by independent commissions the norm in every state so that gerrymandering, which has had a destructive effect on our body politic, becomes a thing of the past.
Democrats need to lead in this struggle not become (or remain) part of the problem.
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If everybody gerrymanders, maybe the SCOTUS will finally step up to the plate and decide it's unconstitutional.
8
This race to gain an engineered electoral advantage will never stop if we leave it up to partisan hacks from either party. Although some states have taken redistricting out of partisan hands, it doesn't look like all states will follow that lead. Perhaps we need a Constitutional amendment that clearly outlaws gerrymandering and creates a framework for fair elections that allow political representation for a variety of viewpoints. As much as I loathe the way Republicans rigged the past decade's elections, I certainly don't want to see Democrats mimic or try to one up them in despicable behavior. In aggregate, Democrats often win more votes than Republicans as it is - they shouldn't need to cheat on top of that numerical advantage.
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Can't complain about it in Madison, and then look the other way in Trenton. This is a bad idea.
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It's a dilemma. On the one hand gerrymandering to pick your voters and voter suppression is clearly undemocratic. On the other it's clear the GOP is completely unashamed of its own gerrymandering and voter suppression in other states. So what should Democrats do, unilaterally disarm?
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@Michael Lueke
We need commissions in each state, equally divided, as there are in California and Arizona and a few other states. And the goal should be to make districts as competitive as possible, not to permanently bake in the interests of either a liberal or conservative party.
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@John
Agreed, in a perfect world that would be best.
But how do you get a commission in any state if the party in power has an interest in keeping the status quo and has no concern for Democratic norms? Wisconsin is the perfect example.
1
Typical Jersey. There, like here in Chicago, will see bankruptcies soon...
Too many unions / pension liabilities.
The party’s over soon...
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@Mike DeMaio.
This comment brought to you by Mike DeMaio circa 2008...and 1998...and 1988...and...
I hope that attempt by Dem's will fail because it's anti-democratic and simply wrong -- but I'll enjoy seeing the crooked-minded GOP howl and whine about this use of their own nasty behavior elsewhere.
11
A reasonable person has to object to this on grounds of pragmatism if nothing else. Even if you're gung ho about fighting fire with fire. Optics matter, and NJ might be the dumbest, lowest-ROI state to attempt this play.
6
Too bad so sad, I feel SO bad for Republican liars, criminals and election thieves. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? Now do you understand? Two can play the same game; as your despicable Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanagh said: what goes around comes around. Enjoy a nice big dose of your own medicine.
At least the Democrats are doing their redistricting out in the open and bringing it to the voters. Not like Republicans who do it in the dead of night, behind closed doors, with their usual utter contempt for the electorate.
Don't like it GOP? Well, lump it. Let's hope New Jersey gerrymanders Republican charlatans out of existence - and then throws them in jail where they have long belonged.
3
As a Democrat and former New Jerseyan now living in Wisconsin, I ask NJ Dems to PLEASE not do this. As my mother used to say to me when I was little, "If Susie [my best friend then] jumps off a bridge, are you going to jump off too?" Rather than joining the Republicans in their power-grabbing disregard for the voters, why not propose a solution for redistricting that might require some compromise (and hard work) from both parties? Let's have a little mutual toleration and gentlepersonly behavior on both sides.
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Illinois is similar to N.J. in respects. A democrat super-majority in the legislature for decades that has nearly bankrupted the state with over $200 billion in unfunded pension obligations. The gerrymandering in this state's districting is unconscionable.
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And how Reps propose to honor these obligations? Just by not honoring them. No surprise they are not in power, and not due to gerrymandering in IL.
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@yulia So who is going to pay then? Whose ox gets gored to fund undfunded pensions? Maybe we can tax welfare payments from the Feds?
Non-partisan committees should determine district boundaries, the right to vote in fair elections is fundamental to our democracy.
Gerrymandering is no more acceptable when the Democrats do it than when the Republicans do it.
36
"...requiring district maps to reflect how major political parties perform in statewide elections..."
That is, it is designed specifically to prevent situations where one party gets a majority vote and the other still gets an overwhelming majority in Congress and the state legislature.
Why are progressives against this? Have we developed a reflex where we oppose any deviation from a purely territory-based system that somehow, magically, does not favor one party over another? Such a thing either doesn't exist, or at best, is in practice nearly impossible to achieve.
Maybe I've misread the description of the Democrat proposal, but it appears to me to be a step in the right direction.
2
Well, if you want the statewide election to be a guide, would not Parliamentary system be a better solution, when the spots in the state parliament is assigned according their popularity across the state in this election cycle? Redistricting based on previous elections, seems to me, is being too late to reflect the views of voters that could change in this election cycle.
1
@yulia Perhaps a Parliamentary system would be better. OTOH it would carry disadvantages of its own. More importantly, it would be a huge, fundamental change in our system, and probably wouldn't be doable in any state in the short run, even assuming there aren't major Constitutional objections.
In contrast, a change like the proposed one in NJ would be doable. (Well, maybe not, in light of the bad reaction to it; but it should be.) If not the precise NJ plan, something like it.
The moneyed class would like to keep NJ like NJ, not California. The Democrats would benefit from listening to reason but you never will. So...
No , I’m a Democrat and this stinks to high heaven , we have to be able to win on the merits of our ideas with no shenanigans, and no convoluted, and contorted districts. If we castigate the GOP for their sleazy ways we cannot follow suit and must hold ourselves to a higher standard.
26
Hey. NJ Democrats. America does not need two sets of Republicans.
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I'm a Dem from NC. I've been dealing with gerrymandering and election malfeasance for a decade. This is the worst thing that can happen to our country and our people. Write something into the Constitution that prevents gerrymandering from any party. Shame on you. You won it now earn it, don't steal it.
31
No, no, NO! This petulant tit-for-tat plan is wrong. Just because states' GOP legislators essentially disenfranchise potential Dem voters, doesn’t make right to do the same to potential GOP voters.
We need serious apolitical research that determines the best way to draw districts that are fair to ALL voters and not just one party!
16
This is a necessary move for democrats. Hopefully, it would happen in several more states. But then I would hope that democrats would use this a a bargaining chip to get republicans to completely eliminate gerrymandering and institute a fair and representative voting process. Hopefully voters of both parties will come to demand it. Gerrymandering is a stain on the fabric of democracy.
2
Have the House propose at-large House elections as a requirement to 'seat' House members and as a requirement under the Constitution's guarantee of a 'republican form of government'. This might suffice, and, if not, would press the issue towards a solution - in both parties. Republicans in major states are as underrepresented as Democrats in the South. State delegations to the federal govt should be representative of the people, not arbitrarily drawn ever changing districts. Commissions are good, but too fiddly and too contentious.
Paired with a voting holiday and/or mail-in vote requirement, it would at least draw a line in the sand.
1
And once the Democrats have complete control, they can keep raising taxes without opposition. I understand that there are still some people in New Jersey who have money left over after paying. I'm sure they'll want to take care of this.
2
In a system poisoned by gerrymandering by parties, both parties compete and end up compromised, and our democracy is distorted.
FiveThirtyEight Blog says:
"A solution is a federal independent commission. Other countries, like the U.K. and Australia, have federalized drawing political maps. But election administration is highly decentralized in the U.S. If the U.S. were to require independent commissions, it would be most likely to happen state by state, with each state having a different process."
Sounds like a very long and contentious process.
Our media has to start discussing this.
Also other democracies high courts don't hand down decisions like Ciitzens United, which delivers election funding to their wealthy and corporate mega donors, who dominate lawmaking, further distorting democracy.
10
I'm a Democrat.
NO GERRYMANDERING.
THIS IS A DEMOCRACY - REMEMBER?
45
No.
I don't want my party to start doing the same despicable things the GOP does elsewhere.
We've gerrymandered Illinois and Maryland and they've done many others.
New Jersey must have an independent commission draw congressional district maps instead of politicians. It works in my State and it works elsewhere too.
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@The 1%
That only works until the Republicans take over again. There has to be a permanent state constitutional solution or a federal solution, if that's even possible.
2
I live in New Jersey and I am a registered Democrat. But I detest this plan, and I am glad that Gov. Murphy opposes it. At a moment in which the Republican Party is engaging in political chicanery in Wisconsin, Michigan, and North Carolina, it is extremely disappointing to see the Democrats engage in an even more crooked attempt to rig the electoral process. What we really need in all states is a non-partisan system for drawing legislative districts.
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I'm so angry with Republicans I'd be pleased to see the entire party demolished, and gerrymandering is one big reason for it.
Come on Democrats, zero tolerance for gerrymandering. If national Democrats can't keep their state level people in line on this, there's really no hope.
23
If the Democrats were smart, they would end gerrymandering and put civilian commission together to draw districts after the census. Iowa as done it and it has made for more competitive elections. Civilians should be in charge of this. Politicians are self-serving.
13
The Democrats should do it.
The Republicans consistently oppose any measures to make district drawing fairer and post-election power grabs have become business as usual for them. First North Carolina, now Wisconsin and Michigan. The incoming Florida governor is already working with the GOP-controlled legislature to weaken the voter re-enfranchisement measure that the voters passed.
As the Dems continue to improve their standing in Texas, Arizona, and Georgia, the GOP's illiberal behaviour will only escalate.
The Democrats frequent habit of unilateral disarmament against the Republicans makes me shake my head. Stop bringing a plastic spoon to a gun fight!
4
I can't help but be a LITTLE conflicted about this, because all evidence I've seen from Republicans suggests they won't stop cheating just because Democrats stop.
That said, today, I do oppose it. If the country and the Republican Party keep backsliding though, I might end up being in favor of 'procedural hardball'.
5
Fellow Democrats, take this as an example about how power can corrupt us too when we let it happen. New Jersey is an embarassment to Democrats— high taxes, fragmented local government, and waves of indictments for political corruption. That does not make them worse than Republicans, but it doesn't make them much of a better choice either. Yeah, they support the bjullet points that every Democrart needs to check off, but they are elected to govern, not create dynasties and sinecures. New Jersey's citizens are good people, and most of the state is beautiful once you get away from the interstates and cities. However, they get, and only deserve, the leaders they elect.
18
Bad idea.
Completely undercuts Democrats ability to argue against it nationally.
We need national non-partisan redistricting.
69
@Matthew Carnicelli The GOP opposes all measures to making voting fairer. The only way to get their attention is to subject them to the same behaviour.
2
I support this. Partisan-based gerrymandering, at least for now, is not unconstitutional. The Republicans' gerrymandering has been struck down in several states because it has inescapably involved race-based distinctions (owing to the disproportionate amount of support among racial minorities for Democrats), which ARE unconstitutional. Any Democratic gerrymandering would avoid that problem.
Those who oppose this and say that the Democrats should engage in "fair play" need to understand that in politics, "fair play" is for losers and that the enactment of preferred policy requires political power. Voters do NOT reward whichever party "plays fair," they reward whichever party offers policies that they prefer. The Republicans practically have a Ph.D. on this topic. The Democrats need to start learning and practicing this too. They need to maximize their political power everywhere they can, any way (short of breaking the law) that they can, in order to counter-act, as best as possible, the harmful effects that Republican-driven policies have had on large parts of this country.
4
Fair play worked great in California; Schwarzenegger, for all his faults, thought an independent commission was the right thing to do, and got it done.
Stop being so afraid that you can’t make a good case, run for office, and win. Stop becoming them.
15
We need more democracy, not less of it. Only way I would approve if this is some gambit to get the Republican Supreme Court to step in end these practices on both sides. Maybe the SC would be more likely to act if more states are malefactors, and I certainly don't want to wait around for the Republicans to reach that quota alone.
But I fear this is really just "lesser men" acting in their own short sighted interest. Eric Holder is not someone Democrats should be ignoring.
7
Fight the GOP on MESSAGING instead of being impatient and stopping to their level.
Fighting corruption with more corruption has never been the answer.
17
There is bit of a difference here. NJ Democrats are putting forward a plan and want to put up for a vote by all NJ residents. Meanwhile Repubs pass laws during their lame duck sessions to prevent Democrats from voting.
See the difference?
5
In the end there is no difference. Same old partisan gerrymandering.
7
A pox on Stephen M. Sweeney and Nicholas P. Scutari. These men are the death of our democracy.
I experience gerrymandering on the other end of the spectrum. I've fought long and hard to end the practice where I live. If New Jersey goes forward with this plan, NJ Democrats make me a hypocrite to all those people to whom I appealed for trust.
These men do a great disservice to the national cause. A curse on both of them.
18
So I guess Democrats aren't any better or more pro-democracy than Republicans. Thanks for the insight, New Jersey.
7
@DRS The difference I'm seeing is that Democratic politicians and voters are expressing strong disapproval and coming out against this. There are going to be unscrupulous people on all sides, but I don't recall hearing of any conservative condemning their extreme gerrymandering or voter suppression tactics.
12
This is truly sad/stupid. The Democrats should follow Michelle Obama's lead - when the Republicans go low (which is often), the Democrats should go high. No anti-Democratic shenanigans, period. Gerrymandering needs to be eliminated in ALL cases. The country needs to fight Republican voter suppression laws and this will not help with the big picture goal.
5
welcome to the the future: a One Party totalitarian state. this is what the Dems have wanted for decades. NJ is just a test case. beware. wake up.
7
@J - You think the Dems are trying for the One Party state? An analysis by the AP states otherwise.
"The analysis found four times as many states with Republican-skewed state House or Assembly districts than Democratic ones. Among the two dozen most populated states that determine the vast majority of Congress, there were nearly three times as many with Republican-tilted U.S. House districts...The AP analysis also found that Republicans won as many as 22 additional U.S. House seats over what would have been expected based on the average vote share in congressional districts across the country. That helped provide the GOP with a comfortable majority over Democrats instead of a narrow one." (Source: Business Insider 7/25/17). Gerrymandering is bad for democracy, no matter which party does it.
2
@J " totalitarian" ? I would be more worried about the Electoral College.
Congrats in making me feel that they may have a point after all.
New Jersey is lost, thanks largely to generations of control by Democrats, corrupt and otherwise. Taxes are arguably the highest in the nation and the quality of services, especially crime prevention and education, is very low. Quality of life is laughable. They can keep their grip on power; it’s like being dictator of a broke, corrupt third world country.
4
NJ public schools are among the best in the nation. Crime is higher in our poor inner cities just like in every other state, but we have an excellent quality of life here with a well educated, diverse, welcoming population. Sorry, but those who put NJ down really don't know NJ.
4
@NjRN - You have good schools in the rich towns like Chatham and Montclair, but in Newark and Camden most of the 'high school graduates' are functionally illiterate, even thought their schools spend over $21K per student.
2
@Larry from NY are you actually in a position to assess QOL in NJ? I would argue there are alot of great things happening in NJ. Comparing it to a dictatorship and third world country is highly inappropriate and inaccurate. For the NJ Dem Senators pushing this plan, stooping to the GOP level means passing these measures in the middle of the night, as we have seen in Wisconsin and NC. I don't support what they are doing, but lets keep our thinking in proportion.
1
No!
I am not a fan of the GO/Tea Party but Elections must be Fair ... ANY Party that tries to manipulate an Election is Undemocratic.
12
If this passes, it would be the next step in the escalation of the war between the parties. If Democrats do this in New Jersey, it is a virtual certainty that Republicans will do it in other states. Democrats will feel they have to fight back and before you know it, this strategy will sweep the nation.
In fact, even if it does not pass, I will bet Republicans will do it in other states anyway. They are much more willing to play dirty politics than Democrats.
The big losers of course will be voters and representative democracy. The only way to stop the madness would be for the supreme court to step in. But don't count on that. As long as the overall advantage goes to Republicans they will let us all continue to politically bash each other until democracy is just a hollowed out shell. Corporations and the 1% will by then have locked up near complete control over national affairs and voting will be an evermore meaningless exercise.
It really does not matter what New Jersey decides at this point. The idea is in the air. Institutionalized gerrymandering is destined to become the next step backwards for the country formally know as the UNITED States of America.
17
@MRod - In order to preserve democracy and create fairness, I would think an argument could be made for having a federal law that non-partisan commissions be created in each state to establish voting districts. I know, getting Congress to even consider such a thing in the current climate would be impossible.
1
@fastcat5.....impossible for congress to consider independent commissions, yet other democracies do it. The media should interview people from those democracies that don't let their parties draw voting districts. Publicize it and explain it, then we can pressure our politicians.
'All the news fit to print' NYTimes?
1
Absolutely not! I am a left of center Democrat. This is a terrible idea in Wisconsin and it's a terrible idea in NJ. We need two reasonable parties who can work together. How about setting up a bipartisan commission that sets up voting districts? Better yet, ranked choice voting. It seemed to work in Maine recently. California does something similar.
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Gerrymandering is an affront to democracy. Congressional districts must be drawn by non-partisan committees.
22
If it’s wrong in NC, MN, PA, etc then it’s wrong here too.
66
I wouldn't want my football team to win by cheating better.
I wouldn't want my kid to plagiarize his way to better grades.
And I don't want ANY excuse for the weasely republicans to be able to say "everybody does it."
Democrats advocating for gerrymandering ultimately helps republicans as they lead a race to the bottom.
If it's going to be crooks, who cares if the crooks are blue or red?
What we need is representative democracy where a crook wouldn't dare show their face.
Be the better party, or continue to come in second to the sleazy guys who own the cheating game.
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@C. Whiting I want to like this more than once.
5
Gerrymandering is unconstitutional and belongs in a non-partisan lockbox as far away from legislators and political hacks as possible.
New Jersey Democrats ought to publicly apologize and start over or move to Republistan where this sort of criminality is more admired.
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@Socrates
Not all N.J. Democrats, fortunately, but the leadership should immediately resign and prepare to go to the same hell that awaits Dick Cheney, Scott Walker, Tom Delay, et al.
The Dems can take NJ and please keep IL and CT while you're at it but please do not ask the US taxpayers to bail you out when you've gone through all the money in these states and can't fund everything you have promised everyone. You will eventually run out of other peoples' money.
2
@Anita Bail out!? New Jersey sends more money to feds than we get out. We fund the dead-beat red states.
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When are we going to wake up and realize that geographic districting inherently gives unfair advantage to one party or another? It's long since past time to move to proportional representation.
4
@Benjamin Hinkley Sure but then you have "party lists" rather than local candidates.
I am a life-long Democrat, but this is a HUGE mistake. New Jersey should instead come up with a plan that is bipartisan and truly fair and neutral to hold up as an example to the rest of the nation. The merits of the ideas of the respective parties should determine who obtains political power, not a skewed and unfair playing field/system. This idea just contributes to the cynical perception that both parties engage in dirty tricks, and indeed makes that perception a reality in New Jersey. Democrats, we are better than this.
44
As someone who is forced to live in a state with severe gerrymandering, I have to say this is a,terrible idea. Nobody likes to have their candidate lose, but I would rather lose in a fair election than win fraudulently, or as in NC, win the popular vote but have a 25% representation in the government.
38
PA Dems shouldn't do this, even if the Repubs deserve to be spanked for few years for it (hopefully) to finally settle in their heads this is wrong, and voters (all of us, not just those who agree with them) are supreme. All they need to do is to create an independent panel (e.g. California, Arizona, Iowa). They'll have an unchallenged majority anyway. Write that into their state constitution. That should be enough. The Repubs would be a nearly permanent minority anyway just through pure voter registration; that's why the Repubs gerrymander and suppress voter rights, because they know it too. But changing their constitution to forbid gerrymandering after you've locked in your own? Not appropriate.
4
To correct myself - it's NJ, not PA. Same logic applies though. The Rs did this drastically for a long time, even in other places. However, it's pretty lowball to punish another by doing the same thing. If the NJ Ds do this, they make themselves no better than the Rs have been.
7
In practice I say go for it Dems, let’s give the Pubs a dose of their own meds. But in theory gerrymandering actually weakens the party in power, and ultimately corrupts, because it appears desperate for power. Then we don’t campaign on the strength and competition of our ideas and policies, and voters resent that more and more. Let’s not represent hypocrisy Dems; let’s show the nation our integrity.
6
@Philip Democrats have no integrity just like the Republicans...You are living in an illusion.
4
I am a left wing Democrat who cannot object too strenuously to this evil plan. If we cannot be ethically superior to the slimy contemporary GOP, then our democracy may as well fold its tent and steal away into the night.
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@Chuck Burton
You never were superior in this regard....
The hubris and cognitive dissonance is real.
There are plenty of democratic states with about a 60/40 electorate split and that have overwhelmingly majority dem legislatures. Take maryland with 7/8 dem seats and a + 9% Dem efficiency score from 538.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/redistricting-maps/maryland/
7
@Chuck Burton I agree with you, but when you talk about Democrats' ethical superiority, all I can say is "Welcome to New Jersey."
10
"Its okay when my side does it because we're moral"
- New conventional wisdom from NYT comment board.
Snark aside, I too am actually fine with hardball politics and think gerrymandering is kinda fine.
This country isn't divided because 1 side is moral and the other isn't: we're divided because we disagree on what the ideal America looks like. Both sides agree, evidenced by word and deed, that turning America into the image they want 1,000% justifies any and all means.
America does nothing if not play for keeps.
The world feels topsy turvey because for the 1st time in 50 years, there is no clear mandate on what that future is.
The old NJ Dem machine built the scaffolding and supplied the muscle to make this move happen but I can GAURANTEE that future NJ dems, whose wins will be indebted to the old machine, won't look like Lautenberg (much less Torreceli)!!
3
Absolutely not!!! This is not the way. What we need to do is outlaw this practice for everyone. All parties. Country before parties!!!
32
Old adage...you become what you hate.
Democrats, do NOT become more like the republicans...that is a huge and very stupid mistake. Be BETTER than the republicans...have MORE integrity, be MORE compassionate, use MORE common sense...don't join the republicans in the mud hole they now call home.
Humans can be so very very foolish.
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@Baruch They are already like the Republicans.
3
@MM
Yes I know...but it is still worth saying what I said.
2
I used to be for Democrats playing by the rules, but as long as the Supreme Court remains mute on gerrymandering and voter suppression, I’m all for getting in the mud.
Democrats: Either secede and establish your own legitimate democratic republic, or face the realities of the country we live in and do whatever it takes to get progressive policy into law.
2
@Lou I agree if we don't gerrymander the supreme court will remain mute because only the republicans are doing it!
1
No, no, no, no, no.
Turnabout does not make this right and it undermines any argument that the D's are holding themselves to a higher standard. I'm all for the Dems being willing to throw an elbow when it's called for but these kind of institutional shenanigans are beyond the pale.
If this is where the Democrats are going then they will have to carry on without me.
15
@BC
The NJ Democrats should do this, and then immediately enroll their own state in a lawsuit declaring that gerrymandering to achieve non-representative legislatures (Federal or State) violates the U.S. Constitution and the relevant State Constitutions.
The U.S. Supreme Court, which clearly would have allowed the Republican Party to get away with this egregious conduct on the Federal level, might bring some greater "non-partisanship" to the question if there are places where, in fact, it benefits Democrats. Then, one hopes that we might be able to get rid of this odious behavior once and for all.
1
Awesome! About time the Democrats played this game to win and destroy the Republicans, as they have done for years. Turnabout is fair play, after all.
6
@Clark
Except it then becomes hard to say that Democrats support voters' rights while pushing for extreme gerrymandering that makes the opposition irrelevant (as the GOP has done in WI).
Democrats need a better answer.
46
@Phobos — Understood, and that is a nice sentiment, in the abstract. But when facing down the forces of evil, extreme measures are required. It may feel good inside to say “when they go low, we go high”, but what has that gotten us in the real world? The most odious and awful excuse for a human being to ever occupy the White House and Lord Voldemort himself as Senate Majority Leader. Changes in strategy are called for by the Dems, and I am glad to see them finally waking from their slumber.
1
If Democrats go through with this they will never again have any standing to whine about gerrymandering when the tables are turned.
11