Perhaps the 'right thing to do now'.....is to have a referendum
from the people about Brexit.....after all....it is their interests
which the Prime Minister Teresa May needs to address.
I hope PM May has the courage to hold a referendum...since
at the moment she must have a great deal of doubt about the
course ahead.....without holding another referendum.
One of the biggest issues is the Irish/UK border.
At worst, things will revert to the way they were in the past.
A regular border with custom inspections and the like. It's not existential. There may be a case for the UK to just exit with no lingering stipulations from Brussels. The UK has many friends around the world. Do they really need France and Germany so desperately that they would be willing to grovel? In a few years those countries will beg the UK for a new detente. I say just leave without a lengthy goodbye at the door.
Absent a #PeoplesVote, the choice for Britain appears to be between a No Deal #Brexit--likely to be a disaster--& remaining in the EU.
I hope it all works out for the best.
Wait a sec. The companion article to this one said there are 315 Conservative members and that May would need more than 158 votes to survive the vote. The final vote was 200 to 117. That is 317 votes for only 315 members. Did Boris Johnson vote twice? Anyhow, kudos to the PM.
@Josh
The Parliament website says that, as of today, there are 317 MPs.
The extra two that you spotted appear to be MPs previously under suspension on misconduct charges - and their internal Party investigations were miraculously concluded (without adverse finding) just in time for the no-confidence vote.
Two additional, grateful supporters for Mrs May! What a happy coincidence for the Prime Minister!
Also a happy day for Britain's lowbrow Press. One of these MPs was alleged to have been up to shenanigans of a romantic and er, sexual nature. An extraordinarily salacious trail of his SMS text messages - published - has made the whole reinstatement business look shameful.
I hope the UK will get a good BrExit deal.
Prime Minister May's courage and tenacity are impressive.
1
The EU is using coercion to ensure the member states don't leave. They are abusing the UK to set an example.
In some ways they have come to resemble the old USSR.
The EU is bound to fall apart, like the USSR, if all it can offer its members is threats and retribution and austerity.
1
This is D-106. 106 days from today the UK will be outside the EU, deal or no deal.
The ONLY deal on offer is the one Mrs. May and her government obtained some weeks ago. There is no other. There will be no other. In fact, there isn't time to obtain an other deal, even if the willingness were there.
All the objections that are being raised are preposterous and, more importantly, concern matters that could easily have been foreseen before even the referendum was held. To wit, the percentage of its food Britain imports from the EU is a widely available statistic that is collected as a matter of course.
The number of containers being shipped between UK ports and the continent, ditto.
The number of EU nationals employed by the NHS double-ditto.
Etc, etc, etc.
Indeed, the very fact, which apparently came as a huge surprise, that by exiting the EU, the border between Ulster and the Republic of Ireland becomes an external border, should have been obvious from the start.
As did the fact that anyone who wants to trade with the EU is obliged to adhere to certain rules and that, having exited, the UK would not be able to influence same, but would still have to abide by them.
Apparently, even at ministerial level, there was astonishment recently on learning that, having left the EU, Britain would no longer have a representation in the European Parliament or Commission...
The mind keeps on boggling, in overdrive...
2
The United Kingdom has never enjoyed being truly united. Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and innumerable other constituencies have all been marginally independent, at the least, and almost self-governing, at best.
You would think that the politicians in London would have seen the writing on the wall post-Brexit and asked their constituents what kind of Brexit they were looking for. From my perspective the only true red lines in any Brexit arrangement would concern controls on migration and the Good Friday Agreement. The UK would likely be forced into an agreement resembling Switzerland or Norway's, but that is the price of control.
Reading these comments it’s hard to tell if I’m reading about the UK or USA. Britain was the canary in the coal mine, predicting the victory of Trump with his xenophobic, racist views. An uncaring government (GOP and Dems share equal blame), stagnant wages, rising costs and arrival of “the other” (immigrants) mirror the conditions that have led the UK to this sorry pass.
1
PM May survives to lose another day mean while Brexit hangs around the neck of the United Kingdom like a dead albatross.
Talk about a swamp.
1
May is no stiff upper lip public servant of the will of the people, the only will she serves is her own ambition. She refused to campaign against Brexit out of naked ambition. There were 2 possible outcomes, remain or leave. In the case of leave it was clear Cameron would fall on his sword, having campaigned for remain, while it was abundantly clear Farage and Johnson were nothing more than sock puppets yapping from the sidelines with the certitude of a loss.
If May was interested in the central plank of Brexit, the sovereignty of the British parliament, she wouldn't have invoked executive privilege (the vestige of regal fiat) to fight a court motion to force her to a vote in parliament. The court judges were "enemies of the people" as far as she was concerned.(www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/04/enemies-of-the-people-british-newspapers-react-judges-brexit-ruling)
Nothing in her handling of the Brexit debacle to date suggests May is interested in anything but holding onto party power. Even her promise to leave bought her time to stay for another year. I don't think her bumbling is any sort of master plan to save the British from themselves, but a blinkered pursuit of personal ambition. If driving the UK off a cliff is what it takes to hold onto her job, she's up to it, and I'm convinced history will judge her actions harshly.
So why are people hailing this empty vessel as a hero?
3
@Andy
And colleagues who have worked with her say their overriding impression is of someone who will put off a difficult decision to a later date. She's simply keeping the car on the road until we get to the cliff edge.
1
Many others have commented but I think it is important to state clearly that most of the people who voted to leave have seen their standard of living decrease over the last 20-30 years. This is sadly a story of the 1% getting most of the economic gains.
The problem of course is that Brexit will hurt the UK economy and is not going to bring back those union middle class jobs.
We need to open our eyes and realize that our current economic system of funneling all the wealth to the top 1% will end in ruin for everyone.
Our current rulers would do well to read the history of the French and Russian revolutions.
4
+ 48% of the populace doesn't want to leave the EU at all, and that's after a massive disinformation campaign to persuade voters otherwise. A great number of her own party's members don't want the deal she has negotiated with the EU because it's not rich enough.
What's that expression that the leader who recognizes they are on the wrong road and reverses course is the best leader? That's right - that doesn't matter because democracy.
3
Just as many left-behinds voted for Brexit, so was the case with Trump. Rather than dismissing the lot as ignorant, take a look at France. An articulate yellow jacket protester there said: "We don't want the crumbs; we want the whole baguette."
Austerity budgets do seem to ultimately cause a breaking point.
4
I wonder why British Pols are not talking about the undue influence that altered the outcome of the Brexit vote? The irrational focus on the results of it and nothing else reminds me of a Texas prosecutor who refuses to allow that someone whom has been convicted is actually innocent in the face of irrefutable evidence of that innocence.
It doesn't make sense. There seems to be something hidden in this.
6
@magicisnotreal
Could it be as simple as the ruling class not wanting to do this so as to not have to show publicly how easy it is to influence an election in Britain?
After all if Brexit actually was a British only operation all of the tactics Moscow used to create this chaos would be in bounds.
1
@magicisnotreal
It gets worse.
A official, judical, investigation has shown that the 'Leave' faction cheated shamelessly - 'electoral fraud on an industrial scale' - by unlawfully laundering a huge tranche of dark money into their campaign at a crucial stage, close to the vote, when the Remain side had exhausted their funds. This money went to Cambridge Analytica and the Canadian outfit Aggregate IQ (names probably familiar to American voters) and was spent on a massive, highly co-ordinated Facebook campaign which CA and 'Vote Leave' believe tipped the vote, at the last minute, in their favour. CA's parent is SCL - significantly linked to Robert Mercer and Steve Bannon. We don't yet know where the money came from. There are strong suggestions of a Russia connection to one of the principal pro-Brexit donors.
The response of the establishment has been extraordinary. Of course the referendum was fraudulent and the result void. Yet, extraordinary attempts have been made to obstruct investigation and to ignore or deny the implications of the criminally manipulated vote. There are even shocking allegations that Theresa May herself suppressed a high level police investigation into the Russia connection.
Brexiters are well aware of the fraudulent vote but want, clearly, to delay admitting it until the UK is out of the EU and it's too late to turn back. Low level Brexit supporters usually produce a narrative of ludicrous anti-Remain counterallegations when the fraud is discussed.
The article says, "While Mrs. May survived to fight another day, the future of her stalled plan to leave the European Union looked bleaker than ever."
What?
It wasn't HER plan to leave. It was Boris Johnson, Steven Bannon, the Koch brothers, Putin and other International Mafia Robber Baron/Radical religion Good Old Boys'cabal's plan. They are cowards so they put a "woman" in to do their dirty work and will throw her under the bus as soon as something breaks.
The Good People of UK need to take advantage of the chaos they have created to DEMAND a new vote. People will turn out in droves to keep UK in the EU, just as they turned out in droves to lay the way to get The Con Don and his Robber Baron brethren out of OUR U.S. governments at all levels.
NOW is the time.
6
@njglea
May is no stiff upper lip public servant of the will of the people, the only will she serves is her own ambition. She refused to campaign against Brexit out of naked ambition. There were 2 possible outcomes, remain or leave. In the case of leave it was clear Cameron would fall on his sword, having campaigned for remain, while it was abundantly clear Farage and Johnson were nothing more than sock puppets yapping from the sidelines with the certitude of a loss.
If May was interested in the central plank of Brexit, the sovereignty of the British parliament, she wouldn't have invoked executive privilege (the vestige of regal fiat) to fight a court motion to force her to a vote in parliament. The court judges were "enemies of the people" as far as she was concerned.(www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/04/enemies-of-the-people-british-newspapers-react-judges-brexit-ruling)
Nothing in her handling of the Brexit debacle to date suggests May is interested in anything but holding onto party power. Even her promise to leave bought her time to stay for another year. I don't think her bumbling is any sort of master plan to save the British from themselves, but a blinkered pursuit of personal ambition. If driving the UK off a cliff is what it takes to hold onto her job, she's up to it, and I'm convinced history will judge her actions harshly.
So why are people hailing this empty vessel as a hero?
2
I'm proposing a radical new idea in gender theory. I propose there are more human genders than recently discovered; but second in importance to male and female I propose two new: Those who live lives based on facts and reality - and those who don't.
The human population seems about equally divided.
5
I have lived in the U.S. since the late 1970s but go back to England every year. Most people I interact with voted against Brexit. The main complaints, they have about the referendum include misinformation and fear-mongering pedaled by the Brexit hard-liners; and that they were being asked to vote on a complex matter about which there was little understanding. The mistake was to have a referendum in the first place.
There still seems to be confusion over what effects Brexit will have on the UK apart from the Ireland issue which seems to be the one issue that is clearly explained. The effects right now are despair and worries about a future that is murky, to say the least.
A second referendum, which may be an alternative to the unknown consequences of a breakdown or a "hard" exit with the re-emergence of Boris Johnson, would have to be prefaced by a genuine effort to clearly layout before the public the consequences of staying or leaving including the consequences of the different exit strategies. Is it possible? Right now, it seems that confusion about what Brexit means in practice extends to those in Parliament charged with making decisions.
4
Fantasy Brexit won a referendum 51%-49%.
Let's see if Reality Brexit can get 33%. I doubt it.
6
The bad consequences of a no-deal Brexit are vastly overstated for one very simple reason: the pound is free-floating. A floating currency will promptly adjust to accommodate any new trade barriers that the EU might inflict. Because the GBP will drop dramatically with Brexit, the cost of doing business in the UK will fall, British exports will become cheaper, and jobs will become more abundant. (Obviously, the cost of imports into the UK will increase).
Brexit implies more jobs in the UK, freedom from the Brussels idiocracy, and control over the wave of migrants who reward their new countries with crime, cultural destruction, and massive new expenses for their schools and healthcare systems.
3
So the many experts - from all industries and many institutions and think tanks - are wrong and the reality is as simple and rosy (and xenophobic, ignorant and glib) as you profess? I'm not convinced, especially when I consider how much we import in terms of food alone, not to mention the chaos that will ensue at ports and such. And your use of "idiocracy" and misrepresentation of migrants doesn't bestow a great deal of credibility upon you or your point.
11
@Troglotia DuBoeuf
The free-floating pound will help to a degree, but there are many many other brexit factors that will have a severely negative effect on the economy. Just two for example: imports are more expensive, and just-in-time supply chains will be disrupted (and these are not helped by a low pound).
As for your last paragraph, we don't need to go to Brussels for an "idiocracy" we have a very well formed one right here, EU migration is less than half the migration from everywhere else so why hasn't that been controlled, and the NHS relies on qualified. EU staff among others to provide services.
"the wave of migrants who reward their new countries with crime, cultural destruction,"
This is just outright xenophobia. The only comment I will make is that the EU project was started in the aftermath of two world wars with the idea that people who trade with and get to know each other will be less interested in fighting.
7
@Troglotia DuBoeuf
Nonsense.
The £ sterling fell nearly 20% against both the Euro and the $US after the Brexit vote. It's dragged itself up to about a 15% fall level subsequently.
Has this plummet energised British exports? A flood of goods pouring from the British Isles into the hands of delighted buyers? Absolutely NOT. Exports have remained about the same, since.
There is no 'export bonus' as the evidence clearly shows. Red faces for all the 'overvalued sterling' crowd!
1
While Brexit makes no sense, Emexit (Empire exit) does, both for Britain, France, Germany, Japan, Russia, and now America!
1
Theresa May is the Lemming-in-Chief for the UK.
It is their choice, but very sad that this may very well be the beginning of a long decline for the United Kingdom.
7
Honestly, who the could have "confidence" in Theresa May?
3
Brexit will pay for every Briton's healthcare.
Mexico will pay for the wall.
Boris, Nigel and Trump's assets should be ceased as a bond of assurance of these promises and forfeit if found to be untrue. Elections have consequences? So should lying. Perhaps with such a financial burden election's "promises made" would be "promises kept".
3
Brexit was and is Putin's plan.
2
Brexit is the UK's Donald Trump. I suspect that its victory was planted in Britain by outside forces as surely as Trump was planted in our WH by those same or similar forces. Neither of our countries can move forward until both Brexit and Trump are thrown out. It appears we are each in the midst of that cleansing and dangerous process. Good luck to both of us!
8
She survived because no one else in the party wants the job at the moment.
3
Great news. Now leave the EU once and for all Brits! It may take some short term pain, but if you don't, your country will end up like France and once it does, there's no going back then. France is changed forever.
1
The British are trapped. May's "deal" is effectively dead since she doesn't have the votes to get it through the commons and the EU are not going to make any substantive changes. The strategy of running out the clock in the hope that panic will enable her to get it through the commons is reckless in the extreme and risks a disastrous crash out with no deal. She needs to start examining ways out of the trap. And I suspect she is.
3
Her "Hail Mary" needs to be an exit from Brexit and then retire. Force the next leader to have the people vote again. It will never pass.
2
How many irrevocable long term policy decisions do governments make by a simple ill informed majority of the electorate? I can't think of any. Brexit was a dumb idea then, it's a dumber idea with every passing day. It needs to be done away with by a second referendum devoid of foreign interference, or Britain should just pretend it didn't happen.
7
What will Brexit achieve? Fewer resources to deal with problems. Isolation. Less trade. A lower economic growth. And a government confident in its ability to bilk the populace with impunity.
9
If your government doesn't understand it, why would you let the public vote on it?
3
RE: “Delivering the Brexit that people voted for,”
They may have voted for it then, but is it what the people still want?
My family voted to go to one place but when we got there we decided it was the wrong place and went somewhere else that was better.
4
So the losers should continuously hold votes until things go the way that they want?
They voted to leave, they should leave.
3
@Bicycle Bob
The vote was first, not an British issue. It was raised and funded by Moscow with the help of British Traitors. Then it was promoted with propaganda (lies) and appeals to racism and xenophobia they took every opportunity to create and or stir up.
The real issue here that I see is why isn't the parliament and anyone else in Britain (At least on the news sources we get to see here in the States) up in arms over that and investigating that?
2
Contemporary conservativism, in Britain, the US and elsewhere, and it's utter refusal to cooperate, negotiate or compromise, coupled with the reckless rise in dubious nationalism, will be the ruin of us all.
3
When Theresa May started the negotiation process she would often say: "No deal is better than a bad deal."
Sadly, the EU negotiating team seem very keen to prove to remaining member states that trying to leave is hard. They have been playing hard ball from the start. For instance saying that planes taking off from the UK might not be permitted to land in the EU.
Where May failed was not persisting consistently on her original statement and gradually letting herself become boxed in to a deal at any price position. EU negotiators have jumped on this and the the Irish border issue to force her into presenting to parliament what is beyond question a bad deal. If she had convincingly said we were prepared to go with No Deal, she might have managed to negotiate something considerably better than what we have now.
Now, if the bad deal gets voted down, which seems likely, we'll be left with
* No Brexit
* No Deal or
* A second referendum
In the face of a vote margin at least twenty times wider than the US 2016 presidential election, backing away from Brexit would be extremely undemocratic. I don't think MPs would dare vote for that even though though I know most commenters here would prefer it.
While I would personally prefer what we're coming to call a "managed No Deal", my guess is that MPs will be back away from that too, and go for the second referendum. That will only bring us head on into another divisive struggle starting with deciding on the question to be put.
1
@Londoner
Trying to blame British stupidity on the EU? What a hoot.
Is a Brit ever capable of accepting responsibility for anything at all?
Regardless, you broke it, you bought it.
1
Even if Mrs. May survived this vote, there is no way that Britain can leave the European Union without suffering the worst hazards of chaos. The Brexit supporters are nationalistic xenophobic Britons who seem to forget that the history of their country is one of the continual arrival of foreigners: the Celts, the Romans, the Anglo-Saxons, the Danes, the Normans and now citizens of the European Union. We live in a multicultural world and Brexit will do nothing to change this fundamental reality.
224
@Robert Dole Not to mention the many immigrants from the British Empire or Commonwealth.
11
@Robert Dole
None of them gave us a referendum.
3
@EB Considering the genocide that those earlier waves of settlers inflicted on the native populations---or that the British inflicted on the victims of their empire---maybe they have a reason to feel skittish.
I feel like most xenophobia (and racism, and misogyny, and homophobia) is rooted in a terror that "if these people treat me the same way I treated others, I'm in real trouble!"
16
“Delivering the Brexit that people voted for,.." is political dupery to the nth degree. The >50% cut point for the 'referendum', a question that decides the fate of a nation, was anti-democratic. The will of a nation cannot be represented by 51%. Even that 51% margin was false because less than 35% of the eligible electorate voted. Furthermore, that vote was not binding for only Parliament could approve the rupture with the EU.
The People does not equal the majority ruling party. The UK system of good governance is as broken as the system in the USA and good riddance to buffoons like May.
1
72.21% of registered voters voted in the referendum, not 35%.
2
Teresa may could have, in the very earliest stages of her Premiership, sought a cross-party consensus on a way forward as it was obvious that delivering Brexit in any form was undeliverable without it.
Instead, she proposed a plan that took nearly a year and a half to devise - without the Cabinet - members of whom then immediately resigned. She ploughed headlong into negotiating that very deal with the EU, and which has now been shown to be unwanted, surprise surprise, by her own party and others. This is a crisis of her making and attempts to re-negotiate the back-stop will, as the EU has suggested, get nowhere. And then what?
3
I feel sorry for the British people, especially the younger generation because they will be most affected by leaving the E.U. We have our own problems in the U.S having such an incompetent leading our nation. Hopefully, if we can get rid of him in 2020 a lot of the damage caused by him is repairable. But the slim margin of voters who were responsible for their nation's departure from Brexit could damage the country for a long time.
2
Democracy's have a problem with the "tyranny of the majority". Brexit is a prime example of this type of tyranny. Ms. May, bless her soul, is arbiter of this tyranny and there is no man in Great Britain in a position to do the job better than her. A no confidence vote without an opponent actively seeking to replace Ms. May seems to tell the whole story.
3
Delusions of Empire. US markets are focused on China. Outside of pound speculators, nobody cares.
5
I can understand why the EU will not change their minds, rightfully so. How can the EU stay united when each country decides "I want out" but with a great deal for myself.
I'v traveled through Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland, Sweden, Denmark, and Germany this past year.
It is not very practical having to change from Ireland where one pays with the Euro then cross a bridge and suddenly you are in Northern Ireland and have to change to the pound. As one has in Scotland because they are all tied to England.
I think the Britts mad a mistake in wanting out and decide it will be on their terms. The danger is that others will follow. Europe is better of staying united. Think if each state in the United States, with the same population as the EU, decides they are going their own way? "United we stand, divided we fall."
2
The EU should not budge on this. Leave or stay, period. And between the two, stay is the sane choice.
3
“Mrs. May won the vote only after promising that she would step aside soon after the Brexit agonies were over...”. Of course, after the woman cleans up a man will brag about how wonderful his house is. After her job is done, Mrs. May should move to better things than a party that has just succumbed to its demons. She deserves better.
I am thoroughly fed up with the politicians who are defying the will of the people and defying the Brexit deal negotiated between the UK government and the EU. The deal, which is not the exclusive property of Teresa May’s deal, is limited, not by her, but rather by what the EU is prepared to agree to. The EU have made it abundantly clear there is no room for renegotiation even if the leadership of the conservative party and government changes so it is also abundantly clear that whoever is in power will face exactly the same problems Teresa May is facing now. It is all made worse by her detractors have no plan themselves on how to negotiate a deal. They need to recognise this and vote for the deal.
2
Look, it is simplistic and insulting to describing people who voted leave as xenophobic and or racist. I voted Remain but since the unfolding of the Brexit scenario, it has been revealed what a parlous condition Europe is actually in: young Europeans unable to get jobs in Spain, Italy and France (not Germany of course!). Many on the breadline. Open borders meaning, well, just about anybody can come and go. For the UK that has resulted in a huge increase in the population with little or no thought, effort or money put in to altering the infrastructure to adapt to increases in birth, needs for homes, health care, etc.,etc., The European project has been revealed to be grandiose directly resulting in the rise of the Right wing in mainland Europe which has a tradition of it anyway - mentioning no names! Whereas in the UK we don't have a history of extremism. People wanting more control over their own borders does make you xenophobic or racist. It now seems that Neo liberalism hasn't worked for the majority and calling people vile names because they object to suffering in their own countries will only entrench matters further. This is a complex subject - we in the West need to sit up, take note, learn, reflect and change our attitudes to our own people!
5
Honest question: do any of her critics actually think they could do a better job? Only a mad man works want to take over this mess that is largely the doing of the party.
Always finding the silver lining upon which to report.
So, for what it's worthI? I’m glad Prime Minister May received a vote of confidence.
Of course as an American I have no say, other than to say that I admire the way Ms. May handled herself, in this difficult situation.
--
On the other hand, I personally think Britain should remain in the EU, allowing the US continued easy access to Europe, via the wise and experienced intermediaries America already relies on, from among the British people and within the British Government.
—
But I’d also like to speak out, and say that young people in both Britain and the EU have *so much more to gain* going forward, from the enhanced mobility afforded them under, “Remain.”
Don’t forget, the future belongs to them, and not to old people, like me, who find it easier to look backward rather than forward.
—
So why stand in their way?
—
One way or other, I will be hoping that when the dust finally settles, that Britain, the EU *and* the US “remain,” [get it?] not only the best of friends, but *resolute* partners, looking forward “together,” to a bright and prosperous future.
—
...And finally, a happy Christmas to you, Madame Prime Minister. You deserve it…!
2
Is it possible that Theresa May, or Parliament for that matter, are still under the illusion that the current Brexit Deal is open for renegotiation? I think it sould be crystal clear by now that as far as the European Union is concerned, the deal is closed and sealed. The UK faces a simple choice: take it or leave it.
Theresa May was an ally of David Cameron and so she didn't support Brexit before the referendum. But she was the one chosen to try to get Brexit across the finish line. She came to the conclusion that the Ireland/N. Ireland border was crucial. The Conservatives hold on power is held together with 10 votes from N. Ireland party which will not accept reimposing hard border with Ireland. The game is over for the hard Brexit zealots. Either they accept quasi Brexit or they face losing power.
1
I don't think it's too Machiavellian to assume that the '48 letters' of dissent required to trigger the leadership challenge might have been augmented by her own supporters in order to force the issue into the open and draw the sting from her opponents in the ERG grouping. The vote buys her a year without - according to Conservative Party rules - another leadership challenge. I suspect her strategy is to 'run down the clock' until the only remaining choice is her deal or no deal.
The PM job in the UK is like the Chief of Staff at the White House the U.S., so keeping PM May is the best the Tories could do.
The biggest BEXIT proponents like Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage may want to keep fanning flame to further their own gain but heck if they have to get their hands dirty. And Corbyn? Ha!
Let's say a no-deal happens. What if Brussels unilaterally decided to allow trade and movement to continue as if the UK were still part of Europe? What if all European institutions and countries continued all the relations they have currently with their British counterparts as if nothing has changed? Of course Europe would lose income from the UK and there would be other one-way costs, but could that be a good move politically? It would put the whole fiasco totally on the backs of the British and potentially bring them to their senses? Crucially, Brexit would have happened as promised! Then a new government, either Labour or Conservative or a Coalition could start rebuilding the relationship between the UK and Europe or rewind slowly. The UK would then just have to learn to ignore the shouts of the (certain to be minority) Eurosceptics for the next 50 years, just as it had very sensibly ignored them for the last fifty years.
@Daniel Newburg
What if airlines continued to operate letting pilots who were not mutually recognised under international treaties fly the plane. What would the insurers think?
When we joined the EU, in 1972, we, as promised by the Tory Government of the day, that a "bright future with good prospects" lay ahead. I was building ships at that time, and I remember the promises made by the EU that tonnage would by sheared, evenly, throughout the EU. That proved to be inaccurate, being polite. Now, 50 years on, the industrial base of the "entire UK", including Scotland, is but a shadow of its former self. Governments, both Conservative and Socialist, have done nothing to preserve an industrial base, however small. The consequences are clear to be seen. There are now parts of the UK which are industrial deserts, with no work no prospects for the inhabitants. Now,50 years on, the UK is being ripped apart, the Government of day is fractured, factions are squabbling with factions, they are more interested in who will be next PM, than the seriousness of this situation.The opposition, they do nothing, they hope the Conservatives will shoot themselves in the foot and they become the new Government. I voted to leave the EU because I believe it is invasive and in many respects, undemocratic. Within the EU, there is a popular demand for referendums, but, the puppet master's in Brussels won't allow that. If I am being realistic, the future of the UK is within the EU, Parliament is occupied by politicians who are only interested only in their political future, the consequence of this our relationship with the USA, destroyed, which is what the EU {Germany} desires.
1
The 200/117 victory in her Conservative party trust vote with condition of delivering on an orderly Brexit is a poor consolation for the embattled Prime minister Theresa May who will certainly find it difficult to survive another no trust vote next time by the Parliament, where she will have few takers for her compromise Brexit deal.This will force snap general elections which she's currently ruling out.
1
It's just more time wasted. The choice is either to fall into hard Brexit by default or withdraw the exit request, either by fiat or a new referendum. Renegotiation is impossible.
5
I agree. Although I wish they would not leave. There is so much more to gain and achieve with them being part of the EU. But it's Christmas and you never no...:)
Teresa May should call the bluff of the Brexiteers. If they don't like it, let them negotiate it. The Ireland question is huge. Instituting a hard border could well result in chaos and worse - or better - the reunification of Ireland. As is the case here the loudest Brexit voices espouse a hyper- nationalism but have no plan to realistically achieve their goals and apparently no concern for the effect on average Britons.
3
I'm increasingly expecting that she will be driven, screaming and kicking, back to a second referendum.
Whatever is decided has to pass the House of Commons.
There is no majority for the May Deal.
There is no majority for No Deal.
There are probably a majority of MPs who think that either remaining completely in the EU political union, or simply remaining in the customs union and single market is the right way. Their views are effectively subordinated to the referendum result, but the result is ambiguous nothing can be decided.
The ONLY way to force a consensus of MPs agreeing anything is to have a second referendum asking the people:
Q. May Deal OR Remain.
That will corral the MPs to one or other of these outcomes.
They (should) have learned from Cameron's folly not to enslave our representative politics to bad options so Hard Brexit should not be placed by MPs as an option on the 2nd referendum.
Thereafter: stop using referendums give views of an extremist minority of MPs a platform and mandate.
In the meantime: google Andy Serkis Theresa May Gollum to turn up some wonderful acting satire and enjoy.
7
@Peter Boyle
Three laws of Maybotics:
1. Maybot may not injure the nation or, through inaction, allow the nation to come to harm.
2. Maybot must obey advisory referendum orders given it by the nation, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. Maybot must protect its own existence, as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
She has broken Law 1, as a result of not following the second clause of Law 2 in response to the advisory referendum, all because she values her own existence in Law 3 above the welfare of the nation.
We need Susan Calvin !
1
Why does the NYT make this personal concerning May? How is she “humiliated”? I’m sure, personally, she doesn’t give darn about Brexit. She is simply trying to make the best out of a dreadful situation. I’m sure this May would be happier doing anything else besides overseeing this Brexit! She is the adult in the room trying to sort it out...Her personal political career is small beer besides this Brexit deal...I’m sure she’d rather be in Blackpool (is that the Santa Barbara of England?)
6
Our Tory cousins across the pond seem as deluded as American Trumpublicans. There's not much more reason to think Theresa May can make the EU cut a new deal than there is to think Trump can make Mexico or Democrats fund his wall vanity project.
13
How sad and telling it is that the only strong European leaders are the demagogue dictators like the guy in Turkey and the other nut in Hungary.
3
Putin's puppets survive another round! Still have a chance to disrupt and divide the free world! Stoli for all!!!
2
Brits use to laugh at Ireland- saying "Irish is incapable of managing their own affair". In a role reversal that incompetent chicken has come back to roost in Britan for their Irish revenge.
7
Although Teresa may does not lead the Party I vote for - I have a snaking admiration for her. Well played Maam. Go Girl!! She has seen off the Jackals. This lot that have had their hands forced to be identified are an extreme right wing nasty bunch who would benefit financially from a No Deal exit, especially by avoiding having their tax havens regulated. One of them, 55 times millionaire, Rees-Mogg gave a speech to similarly rich pals recently advising them to ,like him, move their money to an EU country (Eire) to avoid the negatives he was wanting to impose on the rest of us.
5
0h no! The most prominent feature of the photograph of the 1922 club is the excessive length of their - gulp - ties. A sight inspiring deep fear in this observer. Could they be? Sauve qui peut, one and all!
1
I truly wish our politics were nearly as dramatic and colorful as GB's with of course the necessary "vote of no confidence" panic button when needed. We are much more covert here. No yelling in pubic or no enough of it---stifled murmurs in congressional chambers. Just not quite the same as the High Drama of 10 Downing Street. Pity really.
5
Begs the fantasy question: Would I like Ms. May’s job, or Trump’s Chief Of staff position? Maybe just kill me.
4
Twits. Complain that she hasn't made a stupid idea work but keep her on so that the twits that precipitated this don't have to make it work. That way the twits only duty is to complain, which falls within their capabilities.
4
My congratulations, you survived Prime Minister.
My condolences, you survived Prime Minister.
5
Zzzzzzzzzzz.
1
Once the Brits elect Jeremy Corbyn they will have their own Donald Trump. I wouldn't recommend that, but if he thinks he can do better--good luck you old goat.
1
If I was Theresa May, I’d quit and let the complaining, squawking idiot men deal with it.
2
What can you expect when you have a democracy in steroids - at least as far number of representatives or members of parliament go.
A country with less than 1/6 the population f ours and a land mass less than Texas - has more elected just in one hody than our electoral college plus some more.
Each member represents such a small slice of the population - you might as well think they are lobbyists - in our jargon.
A lobbyist will fight for his client - regardless of costs or collateral damage - because his livelihood depends on it.
Add to this British democracy n steroids - a hyper partisan on double the steroids media - who love nothing but politics as a blood sport.
These folks have give mad - as the famous Hollywood movie said.
1
The operation was successful* but the patient died on the operating table.^ Another health care victory.
++++++
* May kept her job.
^ BREXIT is doomed.
4
May’s failure to prepare for EU intransigence and a No Deal Plan B is the most incompetent negotiating stance ever. Pleading to EU bureaucrats hell bent on trying to impose their own Versailles Treaty on the UK was never going to win.
1
The British voters narrowly sided with little devils like BoJo and Farage.
Still, Theresa May tried to give them what they wanted.
Now the self inflicted wound of the 2016 Brexit vote still festers and the Conservatives pick at the scab. Such stupidity.
How different than the US vote for the GOP in 2016 ? no, actually both are just as stupid and destructive.
The Conservatives in Parliament wont let Mrs. May try to salve the wound with a decent and honorable exit. The UK is now doomed to suffer.
3
@Louis J
Brexit is permanent, or at least hard to reverse, and more destructive (providing Trump keeps his finger off the War button).
Electing Trump is temporary. Just please don't do it again.
I am considering a move to the US over this, and have thought carefully about the differences between the US and British populist votes.
1
Brexit is stupidity on the order of President Donald Trump. I’m hoping that the Brits give up on it and that the EU takes them back. The West needs unity. The EU is it, at least until Trump is gone.
3
Theresa May will travel to Brussels again to try to better her deal, but the EU has already stated that it can give her only a ten-minute meeting and no renegotiation of the current terms will be permitted. What a smack in the face! And the Irish-border issue renders the current deal unworkable. Eventually it will become evident that the only workable way out of this mess is to kill the withdrawal proposal, remain in the EU, and manage British xenophobia over European immigrants in a more rational manner. You don't, if you are sane, inflict a terrible economic blow on your society just because you don't like foreigners.
80
A great many British evidently prefer British laws made in Britain, instead of the EU. As a non-European, it seems a perfectly sane position.
@Dactta Laws are made in Britain. We choose to adopt EU laws.
1
If I see the word “humiliating” one more time in a story about Theresa May, I think I will throw something. Maybe throw up. The lady is valiantly doing her best to rescue her country from the recklessness of less principled politicians, and of a majority of the people themselves. We need leadership like that in the U.S. I
I’m cheering for her all the way.
8
A united Ireland solves the border issue and many others. Be forward thinking and re-unite the Republic of Ireland for the good of everyone.
3
Britain can't simply reunite Ireland, they don't have that power. Reunification is possible, according to the Good Friday Accord, but it is down to the Irish people themselves. A majority of people in the North must vote for it AND a majority of people in the Republic of Ireland must vote for it. Can't see it happening, the Republic can't afford to assume the costs of absorbing the North. Northern Ireland only stays afloat on a boatload of money from the UK.
@Pezley
Oh, I think the majority in Northern Ireland in favour of reunification is not very far off at all. Brexit may in fact be what pushes it over the line...
2
@Pezley Exactly. The UK can withdraw the subsidy. A boatload of missing money will focus the attention.
Sooner or later the populists will learn that it is unfettered capitalism that has doomed them to stagnation in a diminishing quality of life , not liberal democracy.
7
in my opinion EU is not going to be around too long, PM MAY trying to live EU with out asking their opinions of her party, BREXIT was dead from day first, France, Germany, Italy, Greece are all in trouble and they are all blaming immigrants, l will not be shuck if they start to build Trump's wall, look our stock market, and the whole world economy is having problem so lets forget the wall and try to fix the problem
1
@akin caldiran, you are highly unlikely to be right but should the EU fall then be prepared for major wars returning to Europe.
Also, I guess the same thing about collapse was (and still is) said about the USA.
1
I expect that no plan will be ratified until five minutes to midnight. But it will. Once all the grandstanding is done, they will vote to swim rather than sink.
It’s in peril because conservatives can’t understand that they can’t have all the benefits of being in the EU without the responsibilities. It’s the same problem in the US. Same in France. Same in Brazil. Conservatives are the same everywhere.
2
Well, feeling no need to be constrained by knowledge or reality, I have the following proposal. PM May now resigns as PM, says BoJo or JRM, you're it. Watch the hysteria ensue. I think there is a substantive chance, although still less than 50%, that the party will refuse her resignation, although the Queen no longer has the right to refuse.
Interesting to speculate if the English business community (sole owners of the Conservative party) finally pulls the reins in and says NO! or if they just let it go off the cliff.
Are losing Northern Ireland to RoI and Scotland to independence now really in play?
A fundamental issue with the UK today is that there is no leader there worthy of respect by any rational person. Ms. May has tried to be an adult but has kowtowed too much to the hard core Brexiteers in her party to be taken seriously as an honest broker. The separation wing of the Tory party is full of opportunists and blowhards who caused this mess in the first place with their delusional portrayal of the benefits and lack of costs with Brexit. And the Labor party has a leader no one trusts or wants. What a mess. Where is Churchill when you need him? Are there any adults left in British leadership?
3
How is “Stay but only if you leave soon,” a vote of confidence?
If someone said that to me at a party, I probably wouldn’t be feeling the wind in my sails.
As dysfunctional as our government has been, I'm starting to appreciate it more. Politics is messy!
1
British theatre can be very dramatic.
1
The last paragraph is why I read the times. It’s also why many in this country hate people like me, and the media I consume.
1
As an American i am an outsider of sorts but i still care about the UK. I was so happy when the Brexit vote was succesful but here it is 2 1/2 years later and still no Brexit. The UK continues to be held hostage by Germany and its 2 mini-me countries, I continue to have faith that your democratic vote to leave will be upheld but why it is taking so long baffles me...maybe there are simply too many options for the exit, there should be but one option and that is TO LEAVE.
8
Please define “LEAVE”.
What will you do about the border in Ireland?
What will you do re: customs and storage space?
What will you about fresh food?
What will you do about air travel access?
What will you do about access to EU food market?
What will you do about medical isotopes?
What will you do about pharmaceutical supplies?
What will you do about pharmaceutical supplies with short expiry date, such as insulin?
What will you about fishing rights?
What will you do about supply of labour with reference to seasonal factors?
What will you do about lack of customs facilities and inspection posts?
What will you do about small Border Force?
What will you do about establishing new government departments to handle things the EU has been doing for forty years?
...and so forth.
Two poxy examples:
A four-minute wait for a customs check at Dover will produce a 20-mile lorry jam in a day. There is no space to put this many lorries. An entire motorway will be blocked if the delay increases which will stretch into London outskirts the longer you wait. Shelves would empty.
Food exports rely on certification and food standards. On the first day of a No Deal Brexit, Britain will lose vast amounts of money because simple foodstuffs can no longer enter Europe. Vet inspections, quality inspections, health inspections. A single steak from, I dunno, Wiltshire, will not be allowed into the EU (our biggest market) because its EU-ratified supplier quality assurance will have voided.
21
@Mat
Thank you clarifying in an intelligent manner what Brexit means to all of us in the US who have no clue whatsoever and still think they know best.
Unfortunately for the UK, Nigel and Boris also had no clue about these consequences, almost as if they lived across the Atlantic, like some of us readers here.
I am reading and am disturbed by comments promoting a re-vote on Brexit and it's an affront to democracy. There was an active campaign prior to vote for and against leaving the EU and Leave won 52-48.
Voters remorse?
Many voters have remorse about the current US President but should there be a re-vote in that one?
The UK electorate spoke loud and clear and by a far bigger margin than Trump's election.
The will of the people must be adhered to and no back room machinations should obfuscate the will of UK citizens... City of London stand aside.
14
The city of London voted overwhelmingly to remain. The actual referendum was to invoke negotiations to leave. Any final deal will could be open to a second referendum.
9
@JL
A second referendum would not be a "revote", it would allow the people to decide whether they want the deal negotiated by Theresa May, or whether they want to revoke the notice to leave and stay in the EU.
There is a large grass-roots campaign supporting a "People's Vote". Over a million people have signed a petition, and 750,000 people marched in London on Oct 20.
It is not an affront to democracy to go back to the people and ask whether they are happy with the result of 2 years of negotiations, or whether they would rather call the whole thing off. In fact, that is the very essence of democracy.
13
The issue is that the referendum was offered up to the British with false promises of economic ascendancy & vast amounts of money going to British institutions like the National Health Service. Neither is true, nor will become true. Nor will many of the other promises made by the hard right Brexiteers. A majority of Brits believe they should be given a re-vote or a second referendum to be able to vote on the factual outcome of Brexit. Young people & poorer in particular have a lot to lose, to say nothing of the extraordinary political complications regarding the border in Ireland.
If you could vote on facts wouldn’t you want that instead of the alternative?
5
You write, "The protest vote exceeded many forecasts, and is expected to compound her difficulties in Parliament." Hmmm... that wasn't what the US media proclaimed until yesterday. May was doomed to lose the 'No Confidence' motion was the celebratory war cry of the media.
Anyway, May survived. And so did the resolve to exit the decrepit EU. The Brits are noticing the goings on in France with the 'Yellow Vests' and are smart to get out of the socialistic, communistic, anarchist European mess.
With compatriots like France and Germany, who needs enemies? In British history, the nation has seldom been on good terms with either of these continental messy powers. History is repeating with Brexit.
3
@Appu Nair Oh, please give it a rest.
3
The fiasco continues...
Brexit was a trainwreck-in-the-making from the get-go, the 'brainchild' of David Cameron, who thought he'd use the cheap political stunt of a referendum to score points for himself and the Tories.
May has been an utter disaster from the get-go too, Arrogantly wedded to a bad bad idea and pronouncing all sorts of utterly disingenuous nonsense about the consequences of Brexit and the idea that she'd demand a "better deal" from the rest of Europe.
May alienated the rest of the Euros with her arrogance, political posturing, and outright lies. And she has alienated even people in her own party by her arrogance, dishonesty, and utter incompetence. The recent "contempt of Parliament" censure is due to her concealing basic info and her willful misleading of Parliament and the nation. That's "leadership"?
A REAL leader would 'fess up the reality -- Brexit is a bad idea for Britain -- sold by false promises and disinformation -- and seek to wind the whole thing back from the precipice. May, instead, keeps insisting that Brexit is the only way and seems determined to drive the bus off the cliff just to prove that she's in charge.
Arrogance, dishonesty, and incompetence are a terrible mix for a politician or leader, especially at a crossroads like this. May can -- and will -- only do more harm!
7
The solution is simple. A new referendum on Brexit.
I am sure the results will be reversed and the U.K. can reassert the reality that she is an integral part of Europe.
The Conservative Party is inept and its leadership
deluded cowards. Please a new vote!
6
Here's a dynamic, strong, principled leader worthy of praise despite her politics. Yet she's on a fool's mission. Brexiit is a lie, it won the referendum on lies, and it's unworkable in practice. (Not unlike the current occupant of the White House). It's time for a new referendum.
4
May's plan, insofar as she has ever had one, has always been to just keep going, with no coherent end in sight.
Many admire her 'stamina', but as one in her party said in the private discusion before the vote this evening, 'Stamina is not a strategy'.
She's known in Britain as The Maybot: robots and machines generally just follow goals set by goal-directed programmers.
But nobody knows who wrote her program, and she seems to be caught in some strange feedback loop that nobody can fix.
7
If they end up leaving the EU it will be a massive mistake.
6
@Nycgal if? what are you smoking?
1
@Nycgal Nothing's certain but death, taxes, and dozy government leaders.
No one wants the job. That simple.
3
Why does the headline say "In Peril" like it's a bad thing? This was an racist nationalist concept egged on by Boris Trump to grab the spotlight. The ongoing confusion and indecision prove Brexit should wither on the vine, instead of choking off England's fiscal health and freedoms.
6
It seems only rationale to call a second referendum after the terms of withdrawal have been determined. That way if Brexit was affirmed in a second vote, at least we could all say that Britain got what they deserved. Of course, a second referendum will never happen – too reasonable. It is so plain to see that this is going to be a massive train wreck, and afterwards all the guilty parties who brought it on will be as innocent as the snow.
7
More likely it would stimulate a boycott and civil unrest.
Typical that the men have no positive contributions to resolving the Irish borders. It’s a huge mistake to leave the EU - now just live with it.
3
The question that keeps nagging me is: if everyone is unhappy and evidence says that the Brexit vote was influenced by Russia, why can’t this self inflicted insanity just be called off? Doesn’t leaving just play into Putin’s hand?
6
But everyone isn’t unhappy. Like the current state of partisanship in the States, Leave or Remain are now deeply entrenched to the extent that facts and expert advice are blithely dismissed. People are very passionate about it. It’s easier to shout “Remoaner” or “Quitling” at each other when your mind’s already convinced, rather than read unpalatable facts (which are probably all Soros fakes! Sigh).
The Russian thing? Well, their influence, while known, is not thought to have been enough to sway an election - so far. The big ‘but’ comes from campaign finances, where a lot of large donations cropped up with the sources being very shady. Accusations of secret donations and laundering from other nations via unofficial campaigns. May was told that Aaron Banks was a fishy character, but she said no to an investigation because, basically, it was politically inconvenient!
Another reason Russia is minimised is that there are also enough people with money and influence who want Brexit for reasons of disaster capitalism. We have various ThinkTanks with various nefarious links with US Conservatives plowing money into the Brexit/ERG spin machine, plus bankers, traders, hedge fund managers, Lords, Barons etc.
I wish there was a proper investigation. But it brings us back to polarisation. At this point, I want an investigation even if Brexit happens. Because if “the will of the people” means anything, it’s that it is at least safe from external interference.
1
Fog beginning to lift – no Brexit in the cards...
Like the US, their financial industry threw every other industry in their country under the bus...
Now it’s working overtime to bury the bus...
But they’re needing some strong backs – turns out the money-guys purchased the needed hand-shovels to do the job, but the instructions are in Chinese...
So, looking for any and all Russian contract laborers who just might happen to be vacationing in Liverpool...
Suddenly, the unhindered flow of people across borders isn’t looking so bad...
4
63-37 may be a landslide in a general election, but when 37% are not ready to follow follow you in your own caucus you are not legitimate.
2
This sounds much like trying to herd cats.
4
Theresa May will stay in power until she has found a loyal and powerful replacement who works out the details with the EU for the UK to join them again. She is the most clever politician ever with an equal deep love for her country.
1
@rudolf Actually, no she won't. And has agreed not to. Thank heavens.
1
PM May should put the current compromise deal to a vote. But she should couple this with the announcement that if it gets voted down, she'll call for a referendum on a "clean Brexit" that lacks the current deal's mechanisms to smooth the way with Ireland, the EU, etc. - in other words, what the hard core Brexit backers want.
There's a good chance Parliament would approve holding this new referendum. (If it didn't, it would be because the hard core Brexiters blocked it, which would leave them holding the bag for the ensuing economic and political chaos, afraid to have their views really put to a referendum.) And then there's a good chance that the voters sensibly would vote down Brexit, finally ending this travesty.
3
Brexit was and is a terrible idea, but one which voters supported in an attempt to address some very real issues that are being ignored -- their loss of income, benefits, jobs and increase in their taxes while the wealthy keep getting wealthier. Everyone on both sides should calm down, put their angry emotions or blind sympathy aside, and stop forming opinions without examining what is happening to the lower/ middle classes due to overpopulation, wealth disparity, and globalization, which has destabilized societies in all Western nations.
People who argue that the populist movements are due to racism and xenophobia are wrong. They are allowing conservative (and probably Russian) propaganda to inform them. Propaganda is way of deflecting from the truth. Propaganda will have you believe that populism is about nationalism and racism. It's not. What's really happening is that the very people (1% oligarchs, Catholic Church, the corporatocracy and their politicians) who are perpetrating the crimes (overpopulation and globalization) are using disinformation to create a false narrative. Deflection.
The world is in a profound overpopulation, globalization, immigration crisis. It's not racism. It's not xenophobia. It's not nationalism. It's economic. If people keep letting the 1% control the narrative we will never stop fighting each other, that is, the wrong people. Our anger should be directed at the 1% who own 90% of the wealth and keep taking more and leaving us less and less.
7
@Misplaced Modifier
And how was Brexit going to fix those problems? Sorry, it was all racism, just like in the US.
Brexiters who seem to think that Brexit will make Great Britain great again are in a for a very rude awakening when Europe moves on without the UK and the UK goes from barely holding onto status as a second-rate power to a third rate power and the Scots decide to leave the tattered Union.
4
The only reason why she survived the vote, is that the party (coalition) is not ready for the turmoil of a leadership change, nor a national election. They simply want to cling to power and draw out the inevitable, and continue hope for some miracle.
It is not going to come.
Me home country is NOT going to accept a hard border with the north, or for anywhere else. Already it is causing a massive upheaval in costs and losses. The DUP (loyalists) in the north continue to be militants in all things, as they play their political cards, but the writing is on the wall.
This is no longer about Brexit, but is now about when (not if) Labor takes over, the most likely disintegration of ''Great'' Britain, and the independence of Ireland (with the north) and Scotland as well.
Just a matter of time !
6
The overseas person in the UK.
Why don't we start with the UK's Premiership, the soccer league much beloved by the British and one of the best functioning in the world. Most of the teams are owned by, coached by and staffed by overseas persons, so how come the foreigner gets such a bad rap that we need Brexit?
1
The issue of migration and identity is not the cause of Brexit, it’s more an effect of austerity and decades of uncaring government effectively abandoning some parts of the country. Stagnant wages, lack of investment, lack of jobs, close public services, rising prices etc. In hard circumstances, it’s not unusual for people to unconsciously look for easy scapegoats. “The other” and the “EU” are easy focal points for rage when someone asks themselves ‘what’s happened to my country?’ - especially when media barons like to blame those things themselves, out of sheer financial interest or simply to sell more papers.
Does this excuse the racism and xenophobia? No - but if you had a country that was actually fair and which looked after all of its citizens and residents, then you’d have less anger. That’s what needs fixing, and that’s why a second referendum in intolerable to some entrenched Leave voters. ‘Going back to the status quo’ just means the same old wrecked community scrabbling in to make a living. Easy to imagine some grasping to the talk of ‘sunlit uplands’ from mendacious Brexiters whose own (hidden) goals mainly revolve around their own success, political, financial or otherwise.
24
The apparent dislike of migration and “the foreigner” is not a cause of Brexit, it’s an effect of austerity. Yes, there is a minority core of racists, and they are a small minority - but what caused millions to vote Brexit with migration as their reason is the age old story of angry, frustrated and ignored people looking for easy scapegoats. Those same people also find hope in political promises that may not be very honest. After all why vote to preserve a status quo that doesn’t help you or your family and friends in any way?
@Mat Charges of racism and xenophobia are meant to distract us all from the true and practical reasons for Brexit. It should be appearant when the opposition to Brexit relies on a narrow-minded, superficial guilt trip to destroy what is, at its heart, a practical-minded financial calculation, with an eye towards an even better, more prosperous future for the Britsh Isles and the Worldwide Commonwealth and the Remnant Colonies,,,,so forth and so on. The EU has devolved into a Moribund Aristocracy in all but name. The Bankers insist on recognition of a "Divine Right to Rule"....demanding payments from their confusing array of tiny fiefdoms, allied thru various arranged corporate marriages...most of it incestual....imposing an ever more byzantine code of laws and regulations that does nothing for the people and only gives the Aristocrat Banker more pocket change to dispense thru the window of his car to the adulating starving masses.
One could only hope that the vote to oust her was , 'close enough' as it was, to bring her to her senses and have her set a real referundum where the Boris Unicorns of Leave are exposed for the sham that they are.
This would be a simple choice, Remain, or take the Brexit Leave 'deal' she has negotiated. That's it.
Will she do it? Not likely.
Unfortunately, being a 'sharp tack in the box' is not anyone would attribute to her.
Better to March over the Brexit cliff, unfortunately.
For her sake and the sake of the UK, I hope May severely punishes those who voted against her. Starting with BoJo, Rees-Mogg and the other hard-line Brexit supporters. Yes, the ballot was secret, but it is well known within the Party who was against her. Their constituencies should be made to wither on the vine
2
May should have bailed when the opportunity presented itself. Staying on is a zero sum game. Turn Brexit over to the complainers and let them try their hand at it.
2
May lost. Which means she is still Prime Minister, in a catastrophe of her own making.
6
The Torries need to put out of power, the UK needs a Labour governement. The whole mess started with Cameron calling for a referndum in the first place.
3
I grew up in a household where my mother's rule was "Whoever makes a mess cleans it up. " That lesson was evidently not taught to David Cameron or Nigel Farage. It falls on May to do the dirty work while the instigators are nowhere to be found. And, all the while she is doing clean-up, the back-benchers do little more than criticize her actions.
My mother wouldn't have put up with those clowns for more than five minutes.
3
@Tom Q Let's not forget David Cameron.
1
I'm impressed with her. She knew what she was doing. If she let it go to vote and it failed (which it would have and may still), they would subsequently throw her in the can also. This way, she bought herself stability through the coming storm. Stepping aside afterward still leaves her with the legacy, dubious as it is, as the one who steered the country through a difficult, self-inflicted wound. She also rightly figured that the party would know it couldn't get rid of her just yet. As foul as they all think the deal is, whatever unlucky fellow came next would be stuck with it anyway. Her party can furthermore pin the blame on her. Fine with her as long as she doesn't go down as simply a failure. Well done, madame.
4
Perhaps, the U.K. should forget the Brexit or take another vote...this time w/o the ex-KGB interference.
1
Sorry to rain on the cheery comments, but 117 votes of no confidence (37%) from her own Party marks the beginning of the end for Ms May.
Brexit future tossed to the wind but am hopeful that a reasonable exit can be negotiated in coming few months.
Whatever happens, the will of the people's vote must be adhered to. If not by May then some other PM.
7
@JL: Unless Mrs May unexpectedly pulls a Brexit rabbit from the proverbial hat, she cannot survive. But the length of her political career is of least concern, even (I suspect) to herself. More importantly, does anyone know what kind of Brexit the UK citizens votrd for 30 months ago (beyond a fuzzy notion that they wanted to separate from Europe) and why is it imperative to honor that uninformed decision? There are three options available now: 'No deal Brexit', Mrs May's Deal (it won't get significantly better) or call the whole thing off. Why not schedule a re-vote following a campaign that lays out the strengths and weaknesses of each.
1
The Brexit referendum was a deeply ill-considered political gamble that lost (somewhat paradoxically) exactly because of how obviously bad of an idea it is, which cause a lot of sensible people to disregard it or not take it seriously, and under-estimating the force of outright misrepresentations made to voters. The people who pushed the idea for their own political gain all realized how terrible of an idea it was, and abandoned ship. Another vote now that it has become clear how serious the matter is and even clearer how bad of an idea it would be would be a good course of action. Even better would have been to show some leadership after her political career was over (the moment she became PM) and simple ignore the non-binding referendum. It was a bad idea in the first place, and it was non-binding for a reason. If the people still really want Brexit, let those people go through the normal process of electing pro-Brexit representatives and PMs until there are enough of them to initiate the process. May's political career is over, it's time to do everything she can to fall on the sword and call off this whole terrible idea.
3
I believe the adage about eating your cake and having it to originated in England. The Brits need to remember it right now because that's what they want, EU benefits without EU responsibilities.
3
@Gina D Couldn't agree more as one who lives between the EU & the US. The Brtis always want some kind of special consideration.
She May or May not survive. The problem is that she should be a real leader and say she is not going to Brexit despite what a slight majority of her uninformed countrymen say. Her critics have no alternative so maybe they should just leave. Then don,t complain about the dire economic consequences.
1
I fail to understand why the Brits are arguing about breakfast.
I think parties on both sides of the aisle could agree that it is fundamental to making a good start on the day. Doesn't have to be the full English breakfast, but for heaven's sake a couple pieces of toast (with marmalade) and a mug of tea or coffee surely would not be amiss.
If nothing else, it might make for more civil and productive parliamentary proceedings.
9
This is a very difficult situation for May since it is impossible to make Brexit happen in a way that is acceptable to all. Those who want a strict Brexit without compromises of any kind should be careful. Leaving the EU without agreements in place may lead to a recession. Revisiting Brexit is an option now that there is no clear path forward. Being a member of the European Union is a painful but not bad choice for May and Britain.
5
Should Britain (U.K.) stay or leave the European Union requires understanding why they joined and all that has happened since then. Not possible here!
For me, the bigger issues are who are the players? Who has impacted the decision making process? Who has put their (collectively) best interests ahead of their country?
My answer to all these questions and virtually every other economic matter is explained by the influence of the wealthy oligarchs. Their resources are virtually infinite and their oppression constant.
3
Note the math of what's happening here. The Brexit referendum narrowly passed, and we're told the British have since come to their senses and only a minority now favors the break. But PM May still has to make it work, and what she's fighting is maybe half of her own party that wants a tougher deal, so her country is being wrecked to please the sentiments of maybe a quarter of its population and their so-called leaders!
If this sounds familiar, it could be that it's kind of like the math we're laboring under here in the U.S. We're stuck for now with President Trump, because back in November of 2016 48% of American elected him. (Yes, I know how the Electoral College works.) Now, only about 40% of Americans still support him. Yet, the Republican leaders are afraid to stand up to him, even though he represents this minority of our people.
Here's hoping the courageous Ms. May can save her country from this disaster. Geez, I wish we had someone like her to save us! But maybe if we can survive the next two years I'll get my wish somehow. Until then, we'll have to count on Speaker Pelosi and Senator Schumer—and possibly Director Mueller.
6
Although there are things May could have done better she's in an impossible situation. It seems that nobody likes what she has proposed, but nobody can come up with anything better. Despite the promises, over-simplification and deception that led to the Brexit vote, it's clear that leaving the European Union is incredibly complicated and will ultimately hurt the UK more than it will help them. And of course the people responsible for this seem to have absconded!
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@LHW
In my opinion, the way Theresa May has handled brexit from the beginning has added significantly to the turmoil and paralysis.
The vote to leave was about as narrow as it could be, and provokes strong emotions. Leaving the European Union is a monumental and profound decision for the UK to make. In light of these facts, the first thing she should have done was involve the all other parties as well as the devolved governments of Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, especially since Scotland and Northern Ireland voted strongly to remain.
The next thing she should have done was appoint people with some gravitas to her cabinet. The people appointed as Brexit Secretary, Foreign Secretary and Secretary for International Trade are political hacks and totally unsuited to their tasks.
She decided, on her own, that leaving the Single Market and the Customs Union were red lines (among others) in the negotiations. This decision is what made the solution to the Irish border issue so intractable.
She decided that rather than seeking common ground with EU negotiators, she would play the tough cookie. "I am a bloody difficult woman" she declared.
What we needed was a real statesman/woman with some vision, principles and political skills. What we got was someone small minded, unimaginative, stubborn and shameless. She does not deserve to be let off the hook just because the mission she *volunteered for* was extremely difficult and complex.
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@LHW
Since there seems to be no majority in Parliament for ANY course of action, clearly the path forward should be to hold a second referendum. The original Brexit vote was a miscalculation by Cameron and manipulated by fraudsters. Now that people are more aware of the real consequences, a second referendum may cause saner heads to prevail.
19
@LHW
Theresa May IS one of "the people responsible for this"! Boris Johnson repeatedly proclaimed that when the UK left Brexit there would be 350 million pounds more a week for NHS. Theresa May said no, there would be 400 million pounds a week for NHS, and also a large sum added to the budget for schools. May and Johnson knew this was nonsense. In fact neither of them is fond of NHS or schools, so if there were a Brexit dividend they would spend it elsewhere. These rabble rousers planned for the referendum to fail, but to energize their base. Now they are too cowardly and self-serving to try to work for the good of their nation in this matter.
9
Liberal politicians around the world are guilty of lying.
For decades they have been in denial about the impact of population growth on the world economy. They have argued that resources are unlimited or at least in sufficient supply to offer homes to a stream of refugees from the third world that looks like it will never end. Meanwhile they haven't noticed that living standards for ordinary people in Britain, France, Hungary and the US have been falling. Many work several jobs and the safety net is in peril.
That's why Nigel Farage in Britain, Marie Le Pen in France, Viktor Orban in Hungary and Donald Trump in the US have gained political power.
Of course, if the truth is actually admitted there is a danger of panic. That's because we have waited too long to discuss possible solutions to overpopulation.
In 1968, when Paul Ehrlich published the Population Bomb there was still time to act. And Deng Xiaoping of China did act. China introduced a one-child policy in 1979. China has had four decades of phenomenal growth as a result.
Now we need similar one-child policies in India, in Africa and in Latin America.
That is the only way to stop the migrant caravans which threaten to destabilize the governments in Europe and the US.
We need a new morality. It is no longer acceptable for families to have arbitrary numbers of children.
We need to give up the freedom to reproduce at will.
Otherwise, the predictions of Thomas Malthus will continue to unfold.
7
It was the conservatives that opposed funding for birth control in these countries. It’s time to revisit this.
You may want to update your knowledge. China partially repealed the one-child policy in 2013 and fully repealed it in 2016. It is now a two child policy. The reason China is doing this is because they have too many men, too many old people, and too few young people. They real side that continuing the policy will result in developing a demographic crisis that will lead to a diminished workforce and a huge aging population that will need supporting.
India has no child limitation policy and already has a drastically imbalanced sex ratio as males are preferred as children. If they introduced a one child policy it would only exacerbate this issue.
@Jake Wagner
What don't you call a one-child policy in the US and Europe, where the children (and adults) consume far more of the earth's limited resources than their counterparts in India, Africa and Latin America? Because your arguments for population control are a subtle form of racism-- the non-white part the world is expected to limit its population so that Europe and the US don't have to change their profligate ways. And what about the lies of the conservatives who insist that market capitalism is somehow sustainable, that their beloved economic growth can continue indefinitely, that the required natural resources will simply appear out of thin air? That's the biggest whopper of them all. If you were honest, you'd acknowledge that many of the natural resources needed to sustain the economic growth are being scoured out of-- guess where?-- Africa, Asia and Latin America! Leaving devastated ecosystems and human communities behind. No wonder you want to limit their population-- all the easier to get your hands on their timber, minerals, palm oil, and arable land.
1
Too bad they didnt dump her when they had the ability to do so thus extending the agony. Europe will not grant a Brexit under the conditions her party wants and the remainder of parliament is against Brexit at all. Hard Brexit would be cataclysmic for the British economy. If they had any honor, they would put the "deal" to a referendum, however, Brexiters strongly suspect they would lose either way, a brexit deal they hate or no brexit at all.
1
@Ed Nor should the EU grant any favors to the Brits. If they want out then go and stop groveling for special conditions. Leave and don't let the door hit you on the way out. Or get with the game. Those are the choices.
When centuries ago the King left England that meant resignation. The PM's useless trips to the continent may not have helped here in the contest, but the trips must be a kind of holiday. There she can relax for a while, and she is met with politeness and respect, although the latter is decreasing; she is also met with wonder. But there, Theresa at least does not have to rub shoulders with the backstabbers that comprise the top of the Tory party.
What a Gargantuan waste. And it is not over yet.
4
Good luck Prime Minister Theresa May. You will be the next Margaret Thatcher and may even more powerful and helpful for the future of UK.
2
I remember Margaret Thatcher, and Theresa May is NO Margaret Thatcher.
3
@Mclean4 Yikes. Heaven help us if she were ever to become a Maggie Thatcher. Lucky for all of us, she'll not be in office long enough for that kind of transfiguration.
1
Brexit. Pronounced "Breaks it".
5
Theresa May gets to be Prime Minister and deal with Brexit for another year. Hooray! Second prize is staying in power for two years.
3
Poor Mrs May. How many times will she have to go cap in hand to Brussels just to be humiliated again and sent back empty-handed to London? How long will this game of chicken last? Or has the EU already won?
Now the real game-changer is that yesterday the European Court of Justice ruled that the UK could unilaterally decide to revoke Article 50 if it wanted to. As the referendum is non-binding legally, this could provide an easy way out of this mess. Democracy will be in tatters for countless years to come, but nobody seems to care on either side of the English Channel.
3
@Angelo Oh. Booo Hooo. Let's all weep for Theresa May and a mess of her making and those who proceeded her. If I were the EU I would have sent her packing and sealed off the English Channel a long time ago. Maybe a wall?
I hope David Cameron is hanging his head in shame. What a mess his arrogance created.
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@Laura Precisely my thoughts. I feel so sorry for Ms. May, having to shovel up the aftermath of his actions. I read a Tweet to Mr. Cameron earlier today that I agree with wholeheartedly: "You voicing an opinion on politics at the moment is like Jimmy Saville coming back from the dead and voicing an opinion on child care."
5
In 2017 the the UK Conservatives held an election and they won with a small but workable majority under David Cameron. A referendum on European membership was held with a binary question - remain or leave the European Union . Leave won my a small majority and Cameron, who was a remainer scuttled away into the abyss a couple of hours later!! A Conservative leadership election soon followed and Theresa May won with a small but workable majority. She then made a terrible mistake and called a snap election in an attempt to to increase her majority. She conducted a lacklustre campaign and lost her majority and now has to rely upon the Democratic Unionist Party from Northern Ireland.
Since then this has emboldened the Remainers and especially Jeremy Corbyn the leader of the main Labour opposition party and who is off the Richter Scale in terms of his leftism. He has for the past 30 or so years loathed being part of the European Union and is doing everything possible now to remain for his own personal elevation to become the leader of the UK.
Corbyn is basically a Marxist and will do irreparable damage to the UK’s reputation and economy. A situation where we will have a Trump and a Corbyn sitting on either side of the pond!!
1
@Laura
You are absolutely right. His arrogant complacency, and complete failure to be in touch with the resentments of ordinary people, is what brought us to this. It never entered his empty, patrician head that the majority would vote no.
1
Ruined Britannia, when Brexit rules their waves,
And Britons always, always, always shall have to beg.
1
I totally dislike Ms May's politics and many of the things she's done. On this I totally admire her. She's been handed a possible catastrophe which she's doing her best to avoid. With all the abuse and ridicule she has maintained her grace and dignity She could've easily said to those clowns Farage and Johnson you go to Brussels and negotiate the brexit and let history and the people judge you. . But she didn't and for that she has my respect.
18
The reason the agreement is so unpopular is because it is such a bad idea. Britain needs to give up a little of its pride and realize they are better off in with Europe than they are outside of it. They need a second referendum. Everyone is much more informed now of what breaking away means, and it is bad.
215
@Joe Barnett Yes! Britain needs to remain in Europe.
8
@Joe Barnett And what happens when the result is the same?
@Joe If, dear boy. If.
What a difference there is between the British and American governments. Britons act with honor and class even when angry. Americans don't seem to be able to do so, wallowing in the mud with the criminal in the White House.
33
@Angelsea If it doesn't change the ultimate outcome, what does it matter? Perhaps some rudeness is warranted considering the stakes.
@Angelsea Thanks but not always - we do also have Boris Johnson!
3
@Angelsea I take it you don't watch the Parliament shouting matches on C-SPAN every week? Or that a standing PM can literally be thrown out of office on a whimsical popular vote? No, thank you, madame.
1
Nancy Pelosi, Theresa May. The two women of these 24h.
16
Never mind so much post-mortem on the confidence vote in Parliament. What of the vote to Brexit? Does anyone listen to the comments of working Brits these days? When people feel they no longer have a seat at the table in their own country, you are way past the time to remedy it. Shame on Britain for letting problems fester for so long. Every country needs to oversee its own immigration and working people need to feel they are a bit part of it all, not falling by the wayside to countries whose names they cannot pronounce. Sound parochial? It's a fact that there are problems with the flood of immigrants into Europe as look at the turmoil in France, the unhappiness and unease in Germany and Denmark, the austerity in Greece and Italy -- well it's on the brink of financial ruin. The problems of these countries didn't happen in just the last two years. Wake up, so-called leadership.
8
It's not that it's parochial, it just doesn't tell the whole story. The exclusion and poverty in the UK has been inspired by the domestic policies of the last 2 Tory governments. Cameron's for designing and implementing discriminatory policies whilst cutting public services to the bone. May's for letting it continue unchanged.
Despite her words of social justice and of no left behinds on the steps of Downing Street today, it was nothing more than window dressing. Nicely written prose with no substance, cash or plans behind.
Victimising the poor by reinforcing assumptions on why they voted the way they did is not helping. To empower people, you must give them a way out of their quandary, not setting them up to be in the line of fire again. Failing to level with them over the scale of the impending doom is manipulative and pure usury.
44
The Brexiteers are against EU citizens from Poland, Romania, etc. in their country. Just as with Latin America immigramts in the US, these people do the jobs the Brits are not willing to do. This past summer UK farmers had a hard time getting fruit pickers. EU nurses and doctors are leaving the NHS and the UK.
Editor’s note: This comment has been anonymized in accordance with applicable law(s).
4
In other words, once she has cleaned up the mess they made the Tory old boys club will kick her to the curb.
Nice.
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@Will.
May has not cleaned up this Tory mess. And from the looks of her kick-the-can approach, she has no intention of cleaning up anything.
1
Democracy has triumphed and Teresa May has actually increased her share of the vote in 2016. The issue is any leader would be staring down at the same withdrawal document unless of course they want no deal, which forecasts tell us would be hugely damaging. She will face huge hurdles to get it through and the reason is that the MPs are holding the whole process hostage. This is disgraceful and in my opinion: unconstitutional. The Brexiteers can belly-ache all they like but the present agreement has taken two years just to get anything at all and cannot be hijacked. There is no mythical better Brexit. The public just want them to get on with it.
"Suppose we were (as we might be)," wrote T E Lawrence, "an influence, an idea, a thing intangible, invulnerable, without front or back, drifting about like a gas? Armies were like plants, immobile, firm-rooted, nourished through long stems to the head. We might be a vapour, blowing where we listed... Ours should be a war of detachment. We were to contain the enemy by the silent threat of a vast, unknown desert ..." therein lies our Brexit opportunity.
3
As the article notes it's been 3 years of The Song Remains the Same, it's starting to get boring this Brexit thing.
2
I am convinced that Russia was behind the Brexit vote, spreading disinformation and lies, goading the population with false information about immigrants and pie-in-the-sky fantasies about UK advancement when free of Europe. Putin is licking his chops as he sees another of his plots to send Europe into disarray succeed. Khrushchev threatened to "bury" the west with violence. Putin is burying the west with cyber crime. The effect is the same.
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@William O. Beeman, I agree. And Putin’s stooge, Nigel Farage, spread false information regarding the supposed financial benefits Brexit would bring about. Because of its genesis in Russian interference alone, there should be a new referendum.
13
Actually, the word "bury" was a mis-translation.The correct translation is "We will overcome you" not "We will bury you". I'm old enough to remember Khruschev banging his shoe on the desk at the United Nations. I was eight and remember thinking "If I did that I would be reprimanded". I wonder what eight-year-olds think today when their parents/guardians listen to the news.
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@William O. Beeman Perhaps Putin and Russia. But the USA's Bannon and his likes have also been pushing the Brexiteer agenda—literally walking on the ground in the UK and also with money and IT influence...
4
Her best bet would be to declare the letter of withdrawal from the EU null and void, then announce that, since the 2016 referendum was non-binding (even Nigel Farage agrees that it is non-binding), she will ignore it, then call new elections. Since Parliament is sovereign, it and it alone can decided on whether to leave the EU.
38
The confidence vote was a non-event because May predictably survived it. It only meant that tomorrow's Brexit crisis will look about the same as yesterday's. Had May lost the confidence vote there would have been the additional problem of the Brexit process, such as it is, stopping for a Tory detour into a leadership fight. But the relative weakness of May's showing (117 for removal) confirms that her departure has only been temporarily stayed.
The real question of interest is whether May's deferral of a "meaningful vote" on her plan will end up making things worse or better. Without any realistic prospect of further EU concessions, her plan will be rejected eventually, whenever the vote is taken. If in the interim conflicting positions further harden, the likelihood of a second referendum would seem to increase.
If only a shrinking minority of nostalgic imperialists supports a hard Brexit free-fall, and nobody gets very excited about the Norway option compromise, the only viable way out of the maze becomes the second referendum. And as a second referendum looms more probable, the terror of a hard Brexit recedes and May's leverage further erodes. Terror of a no-deal Brexit is ultimately the only card May has left left to play.
7
May isn’t out of the woods yet. Does Corbin now table a no confidence motion in the Commons with the hope that enough Tory dissidents and perhaps the DUP join Labour and the other minority parties in the Aye lobby?
3
@David
Almost certainly, but he'll wait until Parliament has rejected her proposed deal.
2
So..
Now that Prime Minister May has another year to go and will not stand as the leader of the Conservatives in the next election, this could strangely work out for her and the UK (at least for one side of the divide). The scenario might go like this: since May does not now have to face the wrath of the voters, she could put the whole mess of a deal to a vote in Parliament, lose badly as she expects, and then put to rest the whole sordid affair by reminding the British public that the 2016 referendum was not legally binding since only Parliament is sovereign and thus since the deal was defeated it cannot be pursued any further. Britain remains in the EU without a shot being fired.
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@Rick Morris
What you say is practical and makes a great deal of sense. I hope TM follows the obvious best solution for the greater good.
4
Although Mrs. May is not exactly a charismatic leader, at least the United Kingdom and the world have been spared from Jeremy Corbyn.
He is the British version of a ranting and raving Bernie Sanders.
And I’m saying that as a lifelong Democrat.
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As if lifelong Democrat meant something honourable..
3
Yes, it very much is honorable. We are the party of social security, child protection, bank savings security, clean air and water, and myriad other laws and regulations that have contributed to civil society.
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@David G
Actually, he's even worse than Bernie Sanders, because Corbyn is the leader of the Labor Party & a possible future PM, whereas Sanders is basically a nonentity within the Dem. Party.
I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments, but the only way for us to truly be spared Corbyn is for him to be repudiated by Labor Party voters, as he was by Labor MP's. Don't overestimate the British electorate. After all, a majority of them voted for Brexit.
2
May is in between a rock and a hard place, in a near impossible situation. "Brexit" is such a flawed and ill-conceived idea, I'm not sure anyone could come up with a plan that a.) leaves the UK in a good position, and b.) that a majority will get behind.
15
This is terrible for England.
She is wholly committed to avoiding the only sensible path: NO BREXIT.
Brexit means weaker economy.
And there is no sensible solution to the Irish-border problem. With Ireland in the EU and England out, the customs line must run all the way up the Irish Sea -- it can't cut across the Irish island to re-ignite the horrors that caused in the past. That breaks Northern Ireland out of the UK. Scotland will be green with envy and follow.
The once Great England will be reduced to part of its home island, walled in from all its neighbors by customs borders, choking and shrinking.
42
Incredibly sad to see the grossly defective Brexit strategy of the Prime Minister of the once Great Britain force her to yet again have to slink to European capitols to once again beg for table crumbs. And worse to hear a senior minister of a very major European country call it out for the world to hear just exactly what it is: "begging".
2
@Kenneth E. MacWilliams
It sounds like you're nostalgic for the days when Britannia ruled the waves & Victoria was the empress of India.
1
Yes, the Brits were warned not to cherry pick. And they must have been sleeping when the EU clearly stated the deal is not subject to re-negotiation!
Editor’s note: This comment has been anonymized in accordance with applicable law(s).
Teresa May’s “victory” in the no confidence vote remains, nevertheless, an unavoidable loss for the UK. There is little chance that she will now get Parliaments affirmation of the pact she negotiated with the EU. In a way the non-confident vote’s failure reflects the morass any new conservative Prime Minister would face in the blame game that will follow the actual hard exit. Most likely the potential PM candidates voted against the no confidence call, as they would prefer to wait and let Ms. May take the full brunt for the chaos.
8
From speaking with colleagues across the pond, they never supported a Brexit and believe that it should never even have been put up for a vote. And when it was, they were simply disappointed by the extremely poor marketing campaign the anit-Brexit proxy put up.
In short, they believe that a new vote on the referendum will heavily favor staying in the EU. Judging by the small sliver of victory on the first vote, coupled with the three-year long robotics of just trying to even get compromise on the terms of such a maneuver, I would strongly suggest that May toss up her arms and agree to a new referendum vote.
It may very well save May.
43
@RichardS
I was in Northern Ireland days before the first referendum, and the confidence level of "no Brexit" winning was as high as with us for HRC beating Trump the morning of our election.
The two worst hangovers I ever had.
DO NOT be so sure what a peppering of hatred can do to a conscience in the election booth.
15
Where is the media coverage of the pre-vote shenanigans that took place, some of it financed by U.S. interests, to mis-inform English voters on Brexit? It was a scandal at the time with many voters questioning their votes after they realized the pros/cons of Brexit.
Maybe a revote is needed to determine today's degree of support.
13
Whereas the initial Brexit vote happened under a cloud of ambiguity and misinformation, now one could at least say the silver lining is they know, or should know, what they are getting into with their pending decisions. I hope that if hard Brexit becomes a calamity, the fact that they explicitly chose it and in that sense deserve it offers them some solace. Unfortunately, something similar could apply to us here in the U.S. soon.
17
@Daniel If Theresa May wants to be sure she's enacting the will of the British People, she ought to ask us again whether we want to leave knowing what we know now, rather than the rose-tinted lies pedalled by the landed gentry two years ago. Sadly a disorderly Brexit will be no consolation.
4
@Daniel Interestingly, you might say that the 2016 election is tantamount to the Brexit referendum.
Maybe we should have a redo of the 2016 election given what happened under a cloud of ambiguity and misinformation and given what we know or should know what we have gotten ourselves into.
Unfortunately (and regrettably) that is not how this has worked. It is critical that a system is established to filter out the shenanigans and corruption that prevail during every voting cycle.
I agree with you Daniel and something must be done to preserve and protect voting!
2
The best thing for May to do would be to call a referendum that requires a 60% plurality to pass. If neither side can convince a good majority to support it then it would leave things as they are. This kind of huge wrenching change shouldn't be based on 51%+. The original referendum that took UK into the EU required 60% to succeed.
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@Robin White
That these major national policies are decided by bare majority votes on one day that can be affected by last minute events or even the weather is insane! These things should at least be a best out of 3.
This is no way to operate.
10
@Robin White Excellent point! I wonder why the referendum on the decision to leave the EU didn't have the same higher hurdle (60%) that the decision to join had? Maybe somebody here can provide some insight?
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@Robin White
The 'correct' percentage for such a threshold has always been fraught. 60% is often applied a convenient round number. 2/3 is motivated by the idea that every individual tie between two voters is broken by the vote of a third. Another way to think about it is to keep a 50% threshold, but require it to hold for a set of undeniable sub-populations. Thus you might need 50%+ among women and men, among under 30, 30-65, and over 65, and in each of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Such a notion of a 'complex' simple majority acknowledges that a nation is always a collection of many rightful interests, and it puts those interests explicitly in the process.
4
The Tory party has weakened the Prime Minister at the exact moment she needs to be strong.
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@AGS
She seems impervious to any blow that has been aimed at her. Look at all the resignations from her cabinet. There is a new Brexit Secretary every Monday and Thursday.
In one way she is stronger: she cannot be subject to a no-confidence vote for a full year.
2
@AGS
NO, May has weakened herself, by alienating everyone -- Euros and even those in her own party -- being secretive, mendacious, and dishonest about almost everything, and being utterly incompetent in her handling of the whole situation!
6
@NYer - "being secretive, mendacious, and dishonest about almost everything, and being utterly incompetent"
The question is why are these failing qualities in May but rallying success points for Trump?
1
Hallelujah! I have a lot of respect for Theresa May. She has an impossible job with little help from the rest of her party. Maybe this will buy time to have another vote to leave or not.
13
Time??? 29MAR is the set date. The clock has been running for 21 months now...
2
So May has won but Brexit’s prisoner’ dilemma continues and the whole political class of the country continues to be ruled by a conspiracy made possible by manifold institutional failures. A series of minority interests — northern Irish Protestant unionists, far right extremists, Imperial nostalgics, and eventually Bennite neo-Marxists — continue work to deny the electorate a chance to vote in what terror getting with Brexit. British democracy’s darkest hour in centuries.
13
@Andrew S.E. Erickson
Leading Brexiteers in Parliament want the UK
to remain in the E.U. fair trade area as much as is possible with reduced commitments to the E.U. legal and judicial system. I am assuming the deal made by Mrs May is trying to achieve a good deal of that. That said, the Irish backstop needs to go. Hopefully she will be discussing that this week with the E.U. negotiators. If she can clean up the backstop concerns, put the package up for the Parliamentary vote.
1
The Brexiteers always wanted to cherry pick!
Editor’s note: This comment has been anonymized in accordance with applicable law(s).
1
In a sense, an act of cowardice by the Conservative Party. They are sending out May to keep getting hammered from both sides while avoiding coming to grips with the fact that they need a viable Brexit plan.
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@Padfoot Yes, the thing they fear even more than having to make a decision on Brexit is to face the voters right now. If an election would be called right now, the next Prime Minister's name would be Corbyn.
2
God forbid! Even the hardest of Brexits would be preferable to that fool.
3
@Beyond Repair
Actually, the hardest of brexits would be an absolute catastrophe.
1
Ya know, as a female leader, one of the tactics I use to deal with irrational group think is to embrace an insane idea whole heartedly and. Like Shakti, just swallow all the karma by throwing myself behind the irrational pursuit until everyone calms down and thinks clearly. I think it helps that I am a woman because the misogynists get really uncomfortable aligning with me. Some people, especially feisty ones, are raised permissively and they become oppositional as adults.
Way to go Theresa May.
10
I may come from a place of ignorance but I'm happy for her. Brexit was a political decision by men who wanted a quick grab of political power and didn't even believe it would pass. As soon as the referendum passed they resigned and quietly fled like cowards. PM May has been the only leader to step up and attempt to serve her country through these dark times. I wish her the best and success, so few world leaders would take this responsibility, she did.
278
@Bob - BREXIT was not a decision only by "men." The whole of the country voted for it, including women. Stop trying to fit everything into your good vs. evil identity boxes.
20
Brexit is a mandate won by a (small) majority of Brits who cared about only one thing: stop the unfettered influx of impoverished darker-skinned non-christian immigrants. Xenophobia on steroids.
Regarding Mrs. May, I think history will salute her!
37
@Bob mostly i agree. but it also would be leadership to acknowledge the insanity of *any* Brexit and pull her nation back from the brink. Her steadfast refusal even to consider this option strikes me as unfathomably irresponsible.
but, yes -- compared to the conniving (mostly) men surrounding her on all sides, she is a paragon of leadership.
28
The NYT's failing news judgment is on display with the "play" it affords the British prime minister's travails over our deepening American constitutional crisis.
2
@Jim Steinberg
Do you really think that the NY Times should ignore a major crisis in our closest ally? It is possible to cover more than one story at a time; the Times has more than one reporter.
5
Two nations at a crossroads, both led by nincompoops.
May could have brought Brexit back for another vote and ended this dance on the edge of the precipice. There is no orderly Brexit scenario in which England comes out winning. There is only one outcome in which the United Kingdom remains one.
One would think the way forward couldn't be clearer...
The rest of Europe is going through its own turmoils. It didn't even take a hundred years for everything to fall apart. Whatever new order emerges in Europe, I fear it will be no less messy than the last go around.
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Things Trump Did While You Weren’t Looking https://wp.me/p2KJ3H-2ZW
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@Rima Regas The problem is that the people driving Brexit and sequelea are very much compus mentis. They know exactlyvwhat they are doing and the damage it will cause, but are doing it anyway to further their own interests. People like Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson aren't stupid, just very egoistic. Either wants to be Prime Minister very badly, so badly they don't mind what shape the country they'd be heading will be in.
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To compare May to trump is a travesty!
Hurling childish epithets like that is trump like behavior.
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There once was a kingdom called UK
For a very long time it had its day
But now on its mission to self-destruct
They'll have to change the name to UcK.
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Let us hope that Jacob Rees-Mogg remains nearby to steady the Tory ship.
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@MKS Hahaha...a hard line Brexiteer, demagogue who doesn't care about the economic damage he will bring to the UK, just as long as he gets it his way.
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I hope this is sarcasm.
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Boy, what a thankless job.
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@Gdnrbob She brought it upon herself when she angled to be PM after Cameron's resignation.
It was a no-win scenario from the start.
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Bravo for Mrs. May.
But I do wish she'd call another referendum or find some other way to shut Brexit down.
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@lrw777
'Tis the will of the people....
Outside of the immigration issue many of the ramifications of brexit was unrelatable to many who voted for it. Clicking "undo" smacks of hideous travesty, but then again, it's their country, their jazz.
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@JeanneDark
I don’t think Tory austerity is the will of the people. I lived in London in the early 1980s, returned to the US (my home) and recently returned to the U.K. to live in Northern England. I see a sharp decline in the quality of life over here. It has nothing to do with immigration and everything to do with Tory policies enacted since Thatcher. Blair as “Tory light” deserves some blame too. I don’t think “the people” had much to do with this mess. Even now, the people vote against fracking in Northern England and their votes are ignored, overridden. There are also corrupt Labour politicians who benefit from Tory policies. All of this has no benefit for “the people,” and it can’t rightly be called their “will.” This is something hidden, mean and manipulative, as another commentator here wisely pointed out.
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Congratulations to Prime Minister May. She seems to have more lives than a cat, especially after surviving today's "no-confidence" vote, although promising to step aside "after the Brexit agonies are over" seems more like a reasonable compromise than a victory.
But I like her and wish her well. And here I thought our country was messed up. Things are really in a pickle across the pond.
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That's funny. For those depressed about the U.S. status quo, "Well, there's always Brexit."
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@uga muga
I want a Trexit in the US!
@uga muga
Love your comment. Thanks for making me smile.
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