Are the Republicans actually grow a spine for the first time in two years? Don't hold your breath.
2
The handling of this disgraceful event by the Administration offers a first occasion for the Republican leadership to separate itself from Trump and his minions. The ugliness and brutality and fecklessness of the Saudi oligarchy turns out to be too grotesque even for jaded Republicans who've till now managed to adhere to "business as usual" as instance after instance of lying and distortion by the Trumpists echoes throughout Washington. Let's hope that this a genuine beginning of the end of Trump. I know...fat chance.
1
Lindsay Graham has more faces than Eve. Who do you believe?
2
This administration has a shadow foreign policyy. They dog whistle it a lot, and lots of die-hard Trump supporters vote his way solely because of it. Unfortunately, it's supported by the same kind of wishful thinking that, in another neocon form, led us to an Iraq war that essentially resulted in the rise of ISIS, and Iran as a bigger thorn in our side.
Jared Kushner is its spearhead. Terrorism in service of Trump-defined American goals is okay. Petty, corrupt dictators are welcome, because they're completely transactional and just like Trump and all the Trump wannabes in the US.
Our biggest problems then are the authoritarian states that aren't completely transactional. Russia. China. North Korea. They'll eat our lunch as long as we treat them as if they are. We keep going Trump's way, and goodbye MAGA, hello MALTE (Make America Less Than Ever). This blustering blowhard is turning the shining city on the hill into a village of backstabbing chumps in a swamp.
Punishment is the wrong term. The correct response should be a frank re-evaluation of America's relationship with a Saudi Arabia run by Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman.
MBS is a prince out of control. Locking his relatives up at the Ritz and shaking them down for past corruption was creative, but apparently some of them emerged differently from what they went in.
Then a Saudi, who happens to be MBS's top critic in the western world, is lured into a Saudi consulate and never re-emerges. That happened spontaneously.
What could the US do to tell the King of Arabia to get banish his adult delinquent son from government?
Staying close to Saudi Arabia with that out-of-control makes the US look terrible. The US is hardly without enemies who want it to look evil.
When Pres Carter sent our foreign policy down the morality-1st, last, and always path, he chose a boulder-strewn path.
1
The murder of Kashoggi was horrible, incompetent, and STUPID! If I were President Trump & the U.S Congress I would be upset that the Saudi Government conspired and then murdered this guy, but just as upset that they did it so incompetently and stupidly. The thought that they would do something with so little planning or thought that they had to know could have terrible repercussions for them, the U.S., and the Global Economy is almost unbelievable.
However, Trump is right. We didn't destroy our relationship, even with enemies like Putin because they murdered people in foreign countries. We didn't demand Putin be ousted, or Erdogan in Turkey be ousted at the murder and imprisonment of hundreds of reporters not just one.
The last time I can think of the U.S. engaging in regime changes that worked was Panama with Noriega.
So Trump is right & these posturing bozos in Congress are wrong, and they all know it. Our relationship with Saudi Arabia is too critical. The message though behind the scenes is no more! No more stupidity like this, and no more gross incompetence.
Ooooh, I bet the Saudi Prince is really worried and frightened by these Republican senators' grandstanding words of condemnation--okay, a couple of senators, 1 of whom is retiring from the senate. Wake up! It's actions, not words.
I also bet Trump has given Jared's good buddy, the Saudi Prince, plenty of assurance that this "little flap" will soon blow over, and it will be back to business as usual with the Saudis.
Yes, rip up the Iran nuclear deal and sanction Iran, but leave the vicious, murdering Saudi's alone. Please tell us what ethical and moral principle is Trump following here?
And when will we evaluate what "business as usual" with the Saudis means? Arming them with all kinds of US weaponry so they can murder as many Yemenis (including children) as quickly as possible. Plus, the reasons for all this carnage in Yemen by the Saudis is---what?
Is this part of Trump's foreign policy and the Trump Doctrine?Nothing like providing arsonists with flamethrowers!
The question we need to keep asking with Trump and the GOP in charge is: What happens when wrong is no longer wrong?
Or is it only wrong when it is committed by adversaries (or anyone who does not like/adulate Trump)?
But is never wrong if there is money to be made, such as by (1) selling heavy duty US weaponry to murderers (the assassination of Khashoggi, killing Yemenis); or (2) paving the way for the President's future hotel investments, etc.?
Or is wrong only when King Trump says it is wrong?
So republicans, order your salad with a dressing of vinegar and motor oil.
At long last, some Republican senators have proved to the world that they are gutsy enough to reject the Trump administration's oft-repeated reasoning for its refusal to hold the Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman responsible for the murder of journalist Jamal Khashoggi: absence of a smoking gun linking him to the murder.
Senator Lindsey Graham’s description of the crown prince “a wrecking ball” and characterization of the evidence linking him to the murder as “a smoking saw,” not just “a smoking gun,” is something one had never expected from him. Until recently, he had been parroting the Trump line on almost every controversial issue.
On the Khashoggi murder, the Saudis have changed their story several times. Trump and his ilk dutifully repeated the changed story. Let's wait and see how it reacts to the rebuke from their hitherto allies.
Graham’s allusion to “the smoking gun” is a direct rebuke to the administration, especially Secretary of State Pompeo and Secretary of Defense Mattis. The latter had repeated the absence-of-a-smoking-gun reasoning as recently as last week. In calling the evidence “a smoking saw,” Graham was alluding to the bone saw that Turkish officials have said was used to dismember Khashoggi’s body.
It’s so laughable that the administration, which, according to earlier reports, was thinking of punishing 17 Saudis in this connection. What about punishing the real culprit whom the C.I.A. has almost definitively identified?
I think the voting machines in SC have been and are being tampered with. I don't know anyone who'll admit to voting for Lindsey Graham.
2
Besides the strong moral ghastliness of this regime, we need to rethink why we even need Saudi Arabia. That it is a bulwark against Iran means they will stand against Iran for their own purposes and not because of US support. As for energy, the house of Saudi can try withholding it and see how their riches dwindle down along with their oil exports. There has to be a limit to what we need to "live" with. THERE HAS TO BE.
2
Since the taking of the American Embassy in Iran in 1979, the involvement of the U.S. in the entire middle east has been a disaster: expenditure of lives of our military, taxpayer wealth with little or no return, and lost opportunity at home and elsewhere. The best example of wisdom was Pres. Reagan's decision to withdraw when barracks were bombed in Lebanon in (?)1982. The promotion of "American" ideals has declined into a maintenance of an American empire comprised of narrow interest groups with self-serving ends.
Why did Khashoggi live in the US and work for the Washington Post? Did he feel saver suddenly and could thus express stronger anti-Saudi Arabian (both political and religious) perspectives! Didn't the Washington Post not see that coming, did they perhaps encourage his dangerous anti-Saudi perspectives. This whole issue is too narrow in assessment and conclusion.
2
@rudolf, why shouldn't journalists in America feel free to encourage anti-Saudi perspectives?
Waiting.....
America needs to publish a price list so that foreign rulers will know exactly how much they will have to pay us in order for us to condone their assassinations. Apparently, the price we want for permission to murder a journalist who is an American resident but not yet an American citizen is $450,000,000 in arms sales. I suggest the following price list:
American citizen: $600,000,000
American congressman: $800,000,000
American senator: $1,000,000,000
American president: $3,000,000,000
By my calculation, we could pay off the entire federal debt for approximately 60% of the population of Wyoming.
2
All you have to do is read Bob Woodward's "Fear in the White House" to understand the close financial ties Trump and Kushner have in Saudi. Kushner especially goes back a ways witht thr crown prince. They will do everything to protect their business dealings. Even sacrifice American Journalists. Trump represents Trump. Not America.
3
It’s great that Lindsey graham got all angry and vocal but will he really back up his words with action or will he continue to lick the heels of Trump?
Furthermore, the disparity between the briefings given my Haspel and Mattis/Pompeo only highlight the extreme bias of the the White House. While bias and molding the truth is common to all administrations and politicians, this level of lying is unprecedented. The damage to the truth is going to be the legacy of the Trump administration.
2
Trump’s sanity was already in question re climate change. If he’s still pro-MBS after bipartisan condemnation of the Saudi prince for the brutal death of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, then, well, I don’t have to say it. But that would explain a lot, like how we can have this huge “opioid crisis,” which has doctors hiding under their beds, but we haven’t the slightest problem with guns.
1
Trump does not want to jeopardize his chance of building a Trump Tower and golf course in Saudia Arabia, as he wishes to do in Russia and North Korea. Republican senators need to wake up or be held complicit in murder, espionage and money laundering.
2
This NYT article and a NYT Tuesday Evening Briefing each have photos of Gina Haspel “at the Capitol”, with John Brennan right behind her. But his security clearance has been revoked by President Trump hasn’t it? Surely he wasn’t at the closed door briefing? What’s the message here guys? Old photo? or They both just happened to pay respects to 41 at the same time?
@Checker
Read the comments and you will see half a dozen people already asked that and were answered. Scroll down and be informed.
It's easy to believe that MBS ordered and monitored the murder of Kashoggi. The hard part is what to do about it. The US has long-standing and friendly relations with Saudi Arabia. They are one of our most important allies, and the Trump administration has made them the centerpiece of its Middle East strategy. Trump wants the easy way out, to ignore MBS's role until the whole thing blows over and then move on. Hopefully, there are people in government with better solutions, in keeping with both our interests and our values.
2
Grandstanding by Graham and Shelby to get some attention now that the blue wave smacked them upside the head.
1
Yes, it is time to remind these countries that, before they chose their leaders, they should consult our congress, considering their consistent "wisdom".
Khashoggi was espousing for and writing to instigate western style democracy in Saudi Arabia even as the Prince seemed mildly open to some reforms, in a place where none has traditionally existed before and whose present hierarchy goes back ages and is entrenched at every level. Apparently all those who would have died due to the ensuing turmoil that would result in such an upheaval are merely chopped liver. I hope those who do not die as a result of MBS remember that.
I'm not sure that I get the reaction of Graham, other senators or, for that matter, the media outrage associated with this murder. When we took out Saddam Hussein, it was obvious to all that the main beneficiaries would be Iran and ISIS. Saudi Arabia is an essential element to the establishment of a new balance of power forming in the middle east after the mess created by the second gulf war. We are hardly in a position to take a moral high ground which endangers our need to establish balance as Iran threatens
If the Senators want to decry violence against citizenry and injustice in general, let them take action against on the immense injustice behind barely restrained police arrogance, harassment, violence and even murder and coverup against African American motorists on a constant basis. Charity begins at home.
2
This is all just posturing from the GOP senate. They have not suddenly found decency and integrity but want to give their supporters a sense that they have. Nothing will be done to Saudi Arabia including ending U.S. support for a war in Yemen in which both parties have mistakenly participated and that has caused a stain on the soul of mankind.
1
The U.S. should request that MBS be removed from his position immediately.
There are plenty of other "princes" who can replace him.
Saudis need the U.S. more than we need them.
2
It’s interesting to me that our toothless republican senators suddenly want “accountability.” From the other guy - not the one who’s sitting right in front of them and laughing all the way to the bank. January can’t get here fast enough.
3
What should be done immediately is to stop all aid for the barbaric war the Saudis are leading in Yemen. That MBS is not a humane ally is blatantly obvious. Wars can be fought without regard for disproportionate harm inflicted on the opposition or with a measured response. Inhumane people just want to win---at any cost. Children and civilians become targets. As with Assad of Syria so with MBS's war: an army can use poison gas, barrel bombs against civilians, deliberate targeting of hospitals, schools, and school buses ---with the intent of terrorizing the opposition population and lowering their morale. The Saudis are also using Medieval siege warfare where hunger and thirst on entire populations are purposely inflicted; who can forget the lamentable pictures of skeleton-like children who are dying or have died from this siege? Had MBS a nuclear weapon, he would be anxious to use it--if not for probable world (albeit minus Trump, who must have his money considerations) condemnation and retaliation. All aid---financial, military hardware and planes, munitions--all types of aid for this war must be terminated immediately -----Inhumane wars should go the way of poison gas and biological weapons--which most civilized countries reject. We may have to do what must be done, over the objections of our MAGA leader.
3
All well and good, but what is the policy recommendation? The US is not going to switch sides in a major regional crisis because of one event. What exactly is NYT suggesting?
@Mike Livingston, it's not the job of the NYT to enact policy.
That's why the article is about Congress.
See, Congress is abdicating its role as a check on the executive branch and.....
oh, never mind.
Most Americans understand that our national security and our influence around the world depend upon something more important that our arsenal of arms and the number of combat-ready personnel we have.
America’s reputation as the oldest democracy in the world and our dedication to the rule of law is what makes it possible for people around the globe to aspire to our values and to follow our lead.
Allowing American foreign policy to be shaped and dictated by a murderous Saudi prince does terrible damage to our nation now and for the foreseeable future.
Donald Trump, his entire White House, including Chief of Staff, John Kelly, and his Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, and Secretary of Defense, Jim Mattis, have lost all credibility on the issue of Saudi Arabia.
Fawning Republican Senators, who blindly follow Mitch McConnell, disgrace themselves and what is supposed to be a co-equal branch of government with a solemn duty of oversight.
45
The question Lindsey (et al) is what are you/we going to do about it? Don't expect any real leadership out of the WH. The so-called "adults" will have to deal with this one. I for one, will not be holding my breath..
I have to wonder what Trump's reaction, and that of others, would be if the journalist's name were something like "Bill Anderson"
or "Itzhak Levine" instead of an overtly middle-Eastern name.
1
Yes, what an uproar this is. To quiet it down the Saudi's will be making some more purchases, at inflated prices of course, of Trump properties again.
They know how to make their puppet dance...
2
I am glad that we now have a firm grasp of the obvious.
3
Complicit? How hoard would it be to say he ordered it?
"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!"....
Every Republican Senator is beholding to Trump; thus, this significant amount of hot air from these Republican Senators doesn't amount to a hill of beans in this crazy world.
Anything that Director Haskel said yesterday went in each Republican Senator ear and out said Republican Senator's other ear (without anything catching).
End of story.
"Here are your (arms sales) winnings,sir."
““Somebody should be punished, but the question is: ‘How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?’” Mr. Shelby said.”
Even in the recent past, no US Senator would ask such a peculiar question of any other country who’s leader ordered the murder of an American resident. Action would be taken immediately against such a terrible crime. But we have a president who’s loyalties lie with his businesses, not our country, and Senators who fear defying our emoluments-conflicted president.
Saudi Arabia is NOT our friend. Their Crown Prince murdered a US-residing journalist who wrote critically of 45 and MBS. And we don’t need their oil. And we must stop supporting their humanity-crushing illegal war in Yemen.
Do something, Senators. Do something that stands up for American decency and old-fashioned morals. Break the spell of 45’s greed and moral indecency that grips you and the rest of Washington, DC. Punish the country that murdered a US resident and stop equivocating.
"This is conduct that none of us in America would approve of in any way," says Senator Shelby. If by disapprove he means dismembering a dissident's body in the Saudi embassy in Istanbul, he is correct. If he more broadly means that no one in America would approve of assassinating an opponent of the US, get real. We have killed a few people in the world we don't like and continue to do so through direct assassination or more general means. US hands also need a good washing.
This story is past its sell-by date. The CIA has more blood on its pinkie toe than Saudi Arabia has on its hands. Let's move on and quit trying to take the moral high ground. We have far greater problems to address.
The President is losing many supporters by supporting this miserable government. He would be better off making peace with Iran and dumping the Saudis. US companies are so rich but the US government is in 20 Trillion dollar deficit due to these global Civil wars it's in - thought Mr Trump was against nation building wars what happened Donald the Cheney Neocons got to you?.
1
The picture shows Senator Graham with his stern face passing judgement on some prince in Saudi Arabia because one person was unjustly killed by Saudi Arabia. Senator Corker and others are also extremely upset because of this wrongful death.
Where were these Senators, with their troubled faces, when we went into Iraq(For no reason) with our usual heroic nickname "Operation Iraqi Freedom" then we eventually went about killing 13,870 civilians.
I don't remember such troubled faces at that time and the number is 13,870 to 1.
Congress always bends to the cardinal rule-----"Easier to blame the other guy than yourself"
If the subject is "Wrongful Deaths In The World", that young person we see with his beard and turbin is a "Prince" compared to our congress (past and present).
Vietnam civilian deaths 365,000 Where was Senator Lindsay Graham with his troubled face.
Lindsey must have been told he wasn’t going to be the next attorney general.
1
"Co-Equal Branch?" From 2008-2016 Lindsay Graham, Mitch McConnell et al. hijacked the Obama White House and stuffed it in the GOP chambers.
2017-2020, the same has rolled Congress in a rug and presented it to Donald Trump's White House to adorn the floors. Nuf Said.
I was just thinking—
For the benefit of his country, King Salman needs to remove the dark prince.
But maybe the old King is in on the murder as well.
So Senator Graham, what are you going to do when you step away from the cameras? Defend Khashoggi like you did AG Sessions?
"More" certain?
The alitheiaphobic, and tragicomically inept, "president" is yet again revealed to be a third-rate conman who's only in it for the money.
1
The door is open for every murdering despot, from Putin to MBS to Duterte to carry on with their heinous crimes without repercussion.
Meanwhile our allies in democracy and freedom get the shaft from our mob boss of a president.
We are living in tragic times.
1
When will the Trump Tower Riyadh be announced?
2
US policy towards the Saudi Arabian nation should not be determined on the basis of a leader's malfeasance. Just as I would hope other nation's would not judge the US nation on the basis of our leaders's malfeasances. One must understand that the people of a nation are not responsible for the actions of their leaders unless these were selected via an informed, full, fair, and transparent democratic process, subject to periodic approval by the electorate using the same democratic procedures. This is certainly not the case in Saudi Arabia where a hereditary monarchy is in place, and arguably, neither is it in the US, where there are deep flaws in the informational consent, fullness, fairness, and transparency of elections.
Trump and this MBS guy have similar opinions about the press. MBS kills critical journalists and Trump calls them the enemy of the people. Now Trump gets all wishy washy about taking any sort of action against the Saudis for an act of murder of an American resident.
10
"Yet lawmakers remained divided over what steps to take next..." Yeah, well, that's true regarding just about everything; isn't it?
8
We didn't care when Saudi Arabia's beheading statistics skyrocketed (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/26/saudi-arabia-criticised-over-executions-for-drug-offences). We didn't care when they continued the practice of amputating people's hands for stealing. We didn't care that they waged a campaign of genocidal destruction in Yemen with weapons we sold -- and keep on selling -- to them. We didn't care when they treated women as second-class citizens, and we didn't care when they built 21st century mega-cities and architectural wonders using labor that was half a step away from slavery. But one journalist with a U.S. visa gets killed -- which is indeed awful -- and suddenly we care. Or at least the press does.
Because money is more important than human rights. To this administration and to past administrations. Period.
9
I love watching Lindsey Graham get worked up over a murdered Journalist (rightfully so), but I also wonder how he can be so passive to the damage being done to Our Country by his president, on a daily basis, and without compassion stand by.
He has had a real chance to make a difference in these dark hours where Democracy, human rights and basic human needs are trampled under foot by a pretender who dreams of a lifetime appointment as ruler and a nice "Trump Resort" in Moscow, but instead Lindsey just gets red in the face about ill-qualified SCOTUS appointments, greasing the pipe for tax cuts for the 1%, and making sure he practices his "I'm Aghast and Appalled!" face for "Fox News & Friends".
Miserable Fail!
Lindsey, its time to man up!
11
This senator is on his usual ego trip. Like with Kavanaugh, he puts a big show on as that little old lady used to say,” where’s the beef? “ The Republicans have done nothing to stem the downwards spiral this world, our country is now taking. Are they going to blame the democrats, the liberals, the immigrants, etc. when this all explodes in their face? They will never acknowledge responsibility. Sad men. Complicit another word for guilty.
7
There's only one real reason why the Trump administration and others in US politics might be lenient towards Bin Salman and RSA - and that reason is Israel's fixation on Iran. Ask Kushner to spell it out one more time. End of.
5
Utterly, totally true. This is the driving force, everything else is sequelae.
To the President, the rich can do no wrong.
7
Something is truly rotten here. Is Trump's only role to cover up? Or did MBS clear his actions with Trump before the assassination since Kashoggi was a US resident?
3
The Crown Prince is certainly a "wrecking ball," and for my money Lindsey Graham is a contender for the Weasel-of-the-Year Award.
I would go out on a limb and say that if this circus isn't a basket of deplorable, I can't imagine what might be.
And I am close to giving up hope that any one of the almost daily "final straws" will actually end it.
5
I think Trump is worried that if he stands up to the Prince something like this might happen to him after he’s out of office.
2
King Salman, if you are still functioning —
Please do what you have to do and remove this dark prince.
And Mr. Trump, in addition to the complete blight of your presidency, you are a moral disgrace to the United States of America.
6
For the life of me, I can’t understand why the US government cares about one single killing? What makes this man so special, thousands of people are killed daily by hostile governments, yet this one matters.
We need to worry more about killings in inner city America than 1 dude killed by the Saudis.
3
Boycott, disinvestment, sanctions.
4
Prince Mohammed “is a wrecking ball,” Senator Lindsey Graham.
As if Graham knows one when he sees one?! What a sad laugh! What about The Carnage-Making President of the United States?
5
An interesting (!) choice of a picture to illustrate this story of Haspel with John Brennan, whose security clearance Trump has threatened at least to revoke. Brennan would never have been be at--this--Senate briefing. This image is of the two of them leaving the Capitol after paying their respects to President Bush...
‘How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?’”
Oh, well this did not seem to bother anybody in the US administartion previously when it was about Iran, China, CUba, etc....
2
Must be super annoying for MBS that its a woman who heads the CIA and is presenting the evidence - Saudi Arabia ranks 141 out 144 for gender parity....well, at least they can drive now...
3
Why does Lindsay Graham believe the CIA - when they don’t have a direct link to MBS ordering the Khashoggi murder - and not the credible allegations of Dr Christine Blasey Ford about Brett Kavanaugh? There was a smoking gun for both MBS and Kavanaugh. DOUBLE STANDARD. Lindsay Graham acts like a truthsayer only when convenient for him.
3
No way to separate the Prince from the state. The Prince is the state. In the words of another ruler: "L'etat c'est moi"
5
Lindsey Graham should learn that "talk is cheap!"
3
MBS stepped out in the middle of Saudi Arabia's 5th avenue and killed someone, with predictable consequences.
5
Another phony face saving attempt by Graham and other self-serving Republicans to admit what we all obviously know about this murder but watch if Graham or any of his cronies will openly hold Trump accountable for protecting this Saudi murderer as well as Putin.
3
In other news, the Senate discovers roosters are complicit in creating chickens.
5
It is good they realized that when Saudi Arabia tested the boundary, we needed to say no or risk the entire world becoming more lawless.
The Saudis should apologize, compensate the family, change their entire policy towards dissidents, and we should return to working with the King and other Prince, and leave final punishment of MBS to them. MBS is interesting because he is a modernizer, yes. But my understanding was MBS was elevated not only because of his own drive to succeed but because he became buddy- buddy with Kushner. The older Prince is more temperate. Finally - MBS was lurking around the Trumps before and after the election. Remember that Betsy DeVos’s brother, Mr. Blackwater Erik Prince set up a backchannel meeting in the Seychelles between Trump’s people and MBS? He was hanging around during the transition as well - Maddow and the British press reported on these issues. Sounds like the Manafort and Assange meeting now.
3
@ann
The Prince and the son of Kashoggi have already shook hands. Kashoggi is already rich enough from his uncle's arms dealing. The entire family is richer than you would ever dream so they don't need a payoff.
1
@ann - remember when the Reagan and G. H. W. Bush administrations sided with Saddam Hussein during the Iran-Iraq War and provided the Iraqi government with technology that, on the surface, had civilian applications, but was harnessed to manufacture chemical and biological weapons? My point is that I am intrigued by your points about the relationship between our current President's administration and MBS, and we civilians seem to be overwhelmed by life so much that we forget this is a never-ending merry-go-round in US foreign policy which happens to enrich friends and relatives of various US Presidents. What has changed is now we have 24-hour media and undisguised greed.
1
When something significant happens in a country that only one person can order anything of significance, it does not take a genius to figure out who ordered it.
3
How is "national security" involved in the decision to limit the CIA's release of its intelligence on the Kashoggi murder to a handful of senators? Why not the whole Senate? The whole Congress? And, for that matter, the American public? Of course, the argument against this is that doing so would reveal how the agency obtained the intelligence. But I doubt that would be a surprise to anyone. The real issue is why the U.S. continues to give one of the world's most despotic regimes a virtual blank check on anything it wants, even when we know that 9/11 was significantly spawned in the kingdom's West-hating madrasas, watch the horrific slaughter in Yemen, and can conclude with reasonable certainty that the Saudi government ordered the barbaric killing of an American resident and eloquent voice for the very things on which this country was founded?
2
There is no smoking gun because the murder was not committed with one.
1
It does not matter what Corker says. He's out the door.
And Graham flip-flops frequently, so todays outrage may be tomorrow's ringing endorsement.
I am surprised that Shelby decided to chime in.
As for the Democrats, their comments were totally predictable.
No, the real bell-weather will be what McConnell says.
If anything.
Until McConnell condemns the Crown Prince, it will continue to be business as usual between America and the Saudis.
And McConnell has shown no indication that he wants to start disagreeing with Trump.
2
“This is conduct that none of us in America would approve of in any way,” Mr. Shelby said.
That’s weird. I would have thought that Senator Shelby would have heard of this Donald Trump fella by now.
5
“Somebody should be punished, but the question is: ‘How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?"
Answer: Demand that the Saudi royal family separate the crown prince from the nation itself (i.e. replace him). Congress holds the leverage, they only have to use it.
5
This is all just posturing. Nothing will change. Incidentally, people are starving to death and already have starved to death in Yemen. Why does the article talk about the "threat of starvation"? It's happening and Congress doesn't care.
5
Let me know when their talk turns to action. Let's not put the blame anywhere but on Trump. He cannot think of losing all that money after his pretend presidency is over. We have to always remember that Trump cares about nothing or no one except Trump.
4
Does anyone believe that Donald Trump would lose a minute of sleep over the murder of a journalist? By the starvation death of 80,000 children? Now ask if you believe he would be willing to lose the Saudis as customers for his personal businesses if that was in the national interest of the United States.
5
MBS and Putin are thoroughly enjoying the manipulation of the US by way of the Trump and Kushner families lust for money. What happened at that consulate was painfully obvious from the onset. The fact that Trump has no desire to or is simply so deeply compromised that he can't denounce anything they do says everything we need to know about the traitor Trumps true allegiances.
What we all still want and need to know is how much longer must we tolerate a traitor to America occupying the Whitehouse. Two years seems intolerably excessive. Thankfully in a few weeks true patriots of America and its citizenship will be taking over the house and we can begin the process of restoring democracy back to a respectable and honorable process by holding the traitors accountable.
3
How delusional is President Trump? If he openly lies about this, why would he expect anyone (outside of his equally delusional hard core supporters) to believe his claims of "NO Collusion"?
5
Again, I’m Saudi and I really dislike the Royal Family including MBS. I really hate the fact that they killed him and dismembered his body... it is just very horrible. But let us face it and be more realistic about the status quo. The GOPs are furious about the killing of Jamal Kashaggi for personal and political reasons while complicit about the Israel and its terrorized actions against Palestinians. They ARE complicit about the school shooting here in USA and they have DONE nothing to stop or control the guns. Do you want to convince me that suddenly GOPs have moral VALUES? Let’s discuss Israel occupation, Iraq War, Yemen bombing by USA drones (before Saudi Arabia involved in the region) and more importantly, let’s discuss the problem here in USA about school shootings.
Lastly, if there are restrictions on human right in Saudi Arabia, there are as well unbelievable mass shootings problem here.
8
Why can't the senators just simply said that Saudi prince ordered the killing. He will have to bear the consequence of an illegal act. This is a human right violation in big time. We cannot use it to play international political game to benefit us.
1
Should an organization kill innocent people like the columnist Jamal Khashoggi or children in Yemen, we should hold the top officials of that organization accountable and apply the correct penalties to them. If the correct penalty is the death penalty, it is an absolute responsibility to apply it, not only to Mohammed bin Salman, but to all the top officials of the Saudi government.
3
What's a president to do????
First on his mind will probably be to "preserve the relationship" for his post presidential business dealings. After all "they buy lots of things from me"!
Something that appeared only briefly in the news is the Administration is working on helping S.A. acquiring nuclear capabilities "for peaceful purposes". Sure!!
Stop that immediately. Stop support for killing Yemeni.
Replace Kushner with a tough ambassador to the Saudis.
Watch none of this happen.
2
Senator Richard Shelby asks, "How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?" The answer is that you don't. Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship; the state is embodied in the dictator.
3
It's been brought up before but bears repeating that Kashoggi was not a US citizen; rather he was residing in our country on an O-visa. As a result of his status, the US does not owe Kashoggi justice. Certainly it is the correct thing to out MBS for the murderous tyrant that he is, but to allow the Kashoggi murder to unwind our entire Middle East strategy is going too far. MBS would then slide over to the Russian side of the table as evidenced by his well publicized greeting of Putin at the Group of 20 meeting last week.
If the American public is going to get worked up about killing one of its own, how about Otto Warmbier, the student who died upon return from his North Korean captors? There's no outrage of Trump's scheduled meeting with the murderous Kim early next year, but yet we dance around MBS as if he's the only devil incarnate we have to live with.
17
@Kurt Pickard Kim is the enemy and we expect them to be murderous actors. But given we have allies with Saudis, we should expect them to at least not murder an American company employee who spoke up against them.
But America has interests and values be damned. The Saudis were partly responsible for 9/11 when again 15 of their citizens attacked us and murdered 3,000 of us on our own soil. America let them get away with it before. Money talks more than values in America. Life of others means nothing to wealthy people.
6
@Kurt Pickard What "Middle East strategy???" Selling weapons to a rouge country with no respect for international law? Aiding their hideous war on Yemeni citizens by refueling their planes??? And maybe Republicans had no outrage for Trump's kissing up to Kim Jung Un, but Democrats certainly dislike him favoring dictators, and insulting our allies. Your viewpoint is tilted to the right.
7
@Kurt Pickard How about Adam Warmbier? When we elect a POTUS who has no moral foundation and thinks of everything as a business transaction we lose the moral bearing of the entire country. I don't know what is the best way to deal with the Kim's and MBS's of this world. But I know I don't have what it takes to be POTUS. Unfortunately we have a morally bankrupt, unintelligent and willfully ignorant egotist who, I think, is even less qualified than myself.
7
I'm starting to like Senator Graham
Well, surprise!
There’s Lindsey out in front again, but this time with an easy issue platform with which to swing the pendulum of public opinion back into a balanced state after the blowback from recent articles painting him as Trump’s little caddie.
1
I agree, but liked him better when John McCain was by his side. if you listen to what he said he would’ve been guns a blazing if they were Democrats but because they are not is giving Rep. chance to explain themselves. Bad behavior is bad behavior and partisanship should not be involved.
Think again.
4
Oh, who cares already? What's going to change, who listens to the CIA anymore?
If 85,000 Houthi women in Yemen had had abortions in the past four years, Republicans would be all over Yemen for killing children.
85,000 already born Houthi children dying of starvation, not a big deal.
38
This is perhaps the most accurate description of the GOP I’ve read. Maybe ever.
5
Excellent point.
4
Poor little boy John Bolton... he doesn't want to actually hear the tape of when Khashoggi was killed by MBS's goons. He's afraid he might not sleep at night or maybe he will have bad dreams. Poor John boy is a woos (or just a liar like his boss) and he really needs to find another job. So sensitive.
11
In the US nobody is above the law. We already know who ordered the assassination of Mr. Khashoggi and we also know who is protecting him in this country. The question now is will the right-wing senators do something or will they become as complicit of the crime as the cowardly fellow in the W.H.? Perhaps those extremists in the senate will develop 'spur conscience' and continue the cover up.
11
I wish “nobody is above the law” were really true in our country.
2
Since Republican senators have now grown enough spine to contradict Trump on Khashoggi's murder, what are they doing about it? Expressions of horror and revulsion are not enough. Vote with a veto-proof two-thirds majority to impose sanctions not only on MBS but the entire Saudi royal family. Expel the Saudi ambassador, who is MBS's brother, from Washington. End all military support and arms sales to the Saudis. Persuade our European allies -- hopefully they're still allies despite Trump's anti-EU stance -- to impose similar sanctions and ask France to confiscate MBS's $500 billion yacht, moored in Nice, and his French chateaux. Then get Interpol to issue an international arrest warrant for MBS and put him on trial, either in person or in absentia, before the International Court of Justice at the Hague. The Saudis need us more than we need them and I guarantee you MBS wouldn't be crown prince for long after that.
22
Issue a warrant for MBS's arrest on the charge of murder. Let it be known that if he ever sets foot in a country with which we have an extradition agreement, we will pick him up and bring him back to the US for trial.
11
Even though I agree with his assessment of Prince Mohammed, Lindsey Graham has lost all credibility. After the death of John McCain, Graham has become a mini-Trump. It's all about what's best for him. He has no courage or conscience left and no longer belong in the United States Congress. McCain is probably rolling over in his grave over how Graham has cratered to the side of evil.
10
Graham? Please! The guy works both sides of the street and thinks no one knows?
19
@Bob Burns
"the guy works both sides of the street".....
... from the sidewalk.
2
It seems the only thing that has kept Trump out of debtor's prison his whole life is free money from his dad, the Saudis, the Russians, or former Justice Kennedy's banker son.
15
I don't understand why these Republican Senators suddenly have sprouted consciences. Lindsay Graham would crawl across the floor to kiss Trump's shoes. They don't care about mothers being separated from their children, people being gunned down in arenas, the planet being its last gasp of life. In short, they don't care about anything meaningful. Why do they suddenly care about Mr. Khashoggi's murder? Something very fishy here.
27
Okay, so everybody other than Trump acknowledges that the crown prince is responsible for this murder. My question is what we (the USA) will now do about this. I believe that we must disavow our relationship as allies in the strongest way possible until and unless the Saudi government also brings him to account and punishes him appropriately.
Our relationship to Saudi Arabia, and any other country, should not be about how many weapons they will buy from us. As well, we are fools to be selling weapons to this government who may one day use these weapons against the USA and its citizens. Geesh!!
23
As always, there is a question about Trump's loyalty. The Saudis have been very generous with him over many years, and no one feeds his narcissism like they have.
21
So they believe our FBI and the President doesn't . What moral road will they take ban arms sales . When your party has been so corrupt for decades I suspect they will remain corrupt with this serious matter and still get the Catholic and evangelical votes.LOL
7
Of course this means Donald, Mattis, and Pompeo also know this, and all have been lying all along
Next crucial step is uncovering why they are lying.
Is it just the tens of millions that MBS spends at Trump Towers in Chicago and New York? Is that the cost of an American resident's life?
Of is Jared Kushner and perhaps Donald himself more directly complicit in the murder?
This requires a full and real investigation. Not the kind of deliberate hurried white wash that happened to hide kavanuagh's crimes and finances.
17
Maybe the senators attended a meeting. Maybe they didn't. Maybe facts were presented. Maybe they weren't. Maybe the senators, if they in fact attended a meeting, mentally processed the facts, if they were, in fact presented. Maybe not. There is really no way that anyone can ever know...
10
The Times of London had a cartoon last week of Trump licking the shoes of a grinning MBS. It explains the current US position quite well. It's way beyond belief that the US position has anything whatsoever to do with lack of direct evidence.
8
Guess what? I don't care what the Saudis did.
3
MBS assured his people he could dismember a journalist with a bone saw in the Saudi embassy in Turkey and get away with it.
Thanks to Trumplethinskin, he's right.
5
The question is what do the Saudis get from Trump for his 30 pieces of silver? Just how morally corrupt does the low life in the White House have to get; before the checks and balances (HA HA) the 1776 founders put in place start doing their job?!
8
@Greg Hodges
Can you give an example of something Trudeau has done that our President hasn't? Even one? Cancel an arms sale? Sanction MBS himself? Toss anyone out of your country? You sanctioned the same 17 Saudis we sanctioned, one month after we did and so far, other than a tweet from a minister, I have seen no action from Trudeau. So why are you here criticizing a US President when your own Prime Minister has done nothing different. Unless you mean Trump is just speaking honestly where Trudeau is staying quiet.
1
Nothing will be done about this killing. Lindsey Graham gets in front of the story and fluffs his feathers for a picture. Tell the story. Leave grandstanding old Graham out of the report.
6
FINALLY, Gina Haspel, has had a chance to brief Congress regarding the CIA investigation into Khashoggi's brutal death. She kept her cool last week when Trump henchmen, Mike Pompeo (pompous) and John Bolton (doesn't know Arabic) tried to sideswipe her department's findings.
I am struck by the lack of humanity toward Kashoggi (where is his missing body?) while Trump tosses a political beach ball back and forth with MBS on the world stage, Putin's high-five notwithstanding.
8
MBS could have dismembered Kashoggi in the middle of 5th Ave and Trump would still support him.
15
In a country where there is no place for human rights only the law of the jungle/royalty prevails. It will take the sacrifice of many human right activists both within and outside the country to change the culture. I doubt White House or corporate world will have any part bringing justice to this case.
5
There is a path to address this crime: the International Court of Justice in the Hague. The US could also decide to treat the so-called prince as an enemy combatant. The question is whether the White House has the moral courage to stand up to MBS, and whether the American people can deal with the fallout, which would include less access to oil.
11
What strikes me is the cowardice, denial, and avoidance in which the Trump White House has come to define itself. This administration puts South American children in cages and does it with blustering bravado, as they rescue the nation from the grave threat of insidious and rogue pre-schoolers. Yet, when an aggressive nation tests the boundaries of the United States, be it an attempted annexation of the Ukraine waters as an initial expansion into Europe, or in the murder by dismemberment of an esteemed journalist working for a prominent American newspaper, this administration trembles and quakes with fear.
Both the Russian and Saudi problems are manageable, given the comparative strength and influence of either nation to that of the United States. Any other administration of either party would have already established boundaries and exacted strict retribution, protecting our nations real boundaries and warning against further assaults against our standing.
What I once thought was solely the greed and opportunism of this administration, I now believe is nothing more than the cowardice of a heel spur with a big mouth and a very small stick.
23
Yes, the Crown Prince is complicit. No surprise there. But what, in your fluster and feigned outrage, are you going to actually do Mr. Graham? The president has lied to the American public, the world and Congress. His minions participated in the lie in their testimony to the Senate. The president has again attacked the credibility of the CIA and in the process undermined the security of the United States. So, Senators, what are you going to do?
17
If the American government is concerned about the negative consequences of holding the Saudi Prince to account, it is no longer Reagan's shining city on the hill. You are losing more in your own and the world's eyes than you can imagine. Few will ever again be heartened by the words "God bless America".
9
Far more will believe it than the US than Canada, which is an absolute circus.......
@bob ranalli
Ok Bob, I will ask you the same question as I asked your countryman, Greg, above. Can you give me one example of something Canada has done that the US has failed to do regarding Kashoggi or Saudi Arabia? Just one? Other than the tweet from the minister that is? NO you can't because Trudeau has mirrored Trump in his ACTIONS. He hasn't spoken out like Trump but his actions speak louder than words.
I hope the Senators enjoyed their moral posturing to the press yesterday, because with fuel prices lower than they've been for some time, the Senate is certainly not going to do anything to truly disturb our relationship with the Saudis over a murder of one of their citizens in a foreign country. Trying to explain to the American public why you caused a gas price hike in the middle of the holiday season over foreigner known mainly to the inside-the-beltway crowd is a losing situation. They're not going to do anything in this situation other than score political points and it's an open question whether they should. So get off the soapbox and get to work on the budget and other unfinished business, please.
1
You can add the Crown Prince to Trump's butcher summit tour.
First it was Kim and Putin, then this guy and I suggest Duerte in the Phil. next.
Sad period in American history when as little as the 1980s, somebody like Reagan in Trump's own party were having summits with great leaders like Gorby.
5
The glaring question is if the GOP-led Congress will challenge Trump's protection (indebtedness?) to MBS and sanction challenge the Saudi's?
For two years, Congressional Republicans have failed to be America's check and balance on the Executive Branch so I'll guess they won't start now.
10
Am I the only one who realizes how dreadful the state of the union is when in addition to all else we now have a president justifying murder on economic grounds?
27
@Michael
Am I the only one who realizes how dreadful the state of the union is when in addition to all else we now have a president justifying murder on economic grounds?
No Michael, you're not. It is painful to watch the America I love disappear in a swamp of lies, greed, selfishness and cruelty. And please, commentators, don't give me "but other countries do the same..." I believe our "Founding Fathers' were aiming to create something better. "We the People" are breaking faith with what We claim are our most cherished values.
8
MBS is a real can of worms, he is trouble now and he will be trouble in the future, the Saudi royal family needs to kick the usurper prince off his perch and replace him with the guy he usurped, problem solved.
6
Can someone please explain to me why Iran is an enemy and Saudi Arabia an ally? How many Iranians were on the 9/11 planes? How many Saudis?
26
Nothing any of these politicians say is of any weight because there is no consequence for Mr Kashoggi's murder.
7
Once again, this means nothing. Trump doesn't deal in facts, and his Republican stooges in the Senate are just blowing hot air and will do nothing.
10
It is clear that DJT’s 2 stooges mislead the US Senate. I’ve come to accept Pompeo as a prime stooge. But time for Mattis to resign if he has any dignity. His loud support for MBS and his leadership of the fake war at the US border (and unconstitutional use of our troops) leave him completely and utterly compromised. He is no longer one of the vaunted adults in the room. He is complicit. Resign.
12
Great progress! Now can the CIA please brief them on Global warming while they are still listening?
7
Mr Adam Schiff...will you please unearth what financial ties Don the Con has with the Royal Family. Put it all on display and watch him squirm. The truth is a flood light for these rats!
10
Both parties have been coddling this monarchy, which supplied most of the 9/11 hijackers and more importantly the extreme religious ideology that they export around the world that fuels Al Qaeda, ISIS, and other terrorist groups.
Saudi Arabia beheads more people than ISIS, suppresses women, has royalty that lives in opulence while most of their subjects live in poverty, and is running a mass state terror campaign against Yemen without even a viable military strategy, just mass starvation and disease killing tens of thousands of children.
Both Parties have to realize that, of the two, Iran is the lesser danger to U.S. interests and citizens.
Whatever hold the Saudis have over U.S. policy must be extracted from our government.
We used a revolution against royalty for a reason. Supporting the leading exporter of terror propaganda is against our national interest. No matter what, they will still be selling oil on the word market.
End the U.S.-Saudi relationship.
15
We are besieged during this strange Christmas season in Washington by intelligence agencies and a Senator from South Carolina who has called the Saudi Crown Prince a "wrecking ball" and a "smoking saw" (re murder and dismemberment of a Saudi dissident resident of the U.S.). The president has cast his (and our) lot with the Saudis against reporters of the truth of our country in chaos today. Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman can't be separated from Saudi Arabia any more than Jamal Khashoggi, a Permanent Resident of Virginia and a journalist on an American Newspaper can be separated from American reporters and "The Fake Press, the Enemy of the People" as our 45th president calls the Fourth Estate.
Trump's stove has too many pots coming to the boil. Will Saudi Arabia continue to be our ally, trade-wise?. Will the Special Counsel's "Russia Investigation" (the "hoax and witch hunt!" DJT) bear fruit of the poison Trump tree? So many other pots are boiling on Trump's Aga, and we are wondering why we American frogs are still swimming in the the climate-warming pot of water on his stove?
4
Somewhere in the discussion of Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman and the death of Mr. Khashoggi, an American resident and reporter for the Washington Post, should be the word 'accomplice'. And by this I mean the role President Trump played from the onset of the investigation.
His turning a blind eye to the investigation from the very onset displayed how obviously more intent he was in valuing a relationship with a burgeoning despot than getting to the bottom of a cold, calculated murder. And how can we turn a blind eye to the notion our president once again showed his disdain for the press?
The 2020 election cycle is at hand and cannot be viewed as anything but the beginning of the end to Donald Trump and the cabal he has surrounding him, specifically the cowardly Republican Congress. We must win back the Presidency and the Senate in 2020 to accompany our taking back the House in 2018.
10
Saudi Arabia is a US client state. We give them orders they don't giver us orders. If Trump is frightened of this little rat MSB what message does it sent to Putin and Xi?
7
MBS and his escort at the UAE are responsible for the death of 85 thousand Yemeni children from starvation, and 11 million are at the brink of starvation and the GOP will do something about it because of the death of Khassoggi, MBS became a reckless leader now. We nowdays are redefining Morality and Humanity downward, glad will not be around to see where this is going.
2
Don't forget, we are complicit in Yemen. Somehow killing Yemeni children helps us in the fight against Iran...???
4
We have to keep this whole thing in perspective. Women in the kingdom are now able to drive. Certainly that's more important than the life of any one man.
3
"The thought", they say, "is mother to the deed."
Can anyone who has strung together the evidence of Trump's sick fascination with violence, torture, beheading, etc.--manifested in his own comments and descriptions, for example, of the acts committed by "MS-13", not ask himself if it is that bizarre fascination, which prevents him from calling out murderers like Putin and Mohammed Bin Salman?
Given free rein to do what he might like to do, it gives me cold chills to think what might be the consequences to the long list of people for whom he cannot suppress his rage.
7
So which of Saudi Arabia or Iran should the U.S. partner with - and it must be one of them - to maintain stability in the Middle East? A choice must be made, even if we don't like it. Naivety has consequences.
1
This is utter nonsense. We can punish the Saudis for this atrocity and they will remain "partners" with us. We have done it before.
Are Trump and America so weak we have to let them call the shots? Sad.
6
This talk about foreign policy is something akin to spitting windward.
Trump’s defense of dictators from Putin to Kim to MBS is not anchored on any foreign policy.
All Trump cares is a tower being built with his name on top, rendered in gold. Electoral integrity, the safety of the Pacific, the price of oil, all these matters not to Trump.
That he can’t even find Crimea, SoKor, or Yemen on the world map is true. Also true is that he doesn’t care.
Trump believes that as POTUS, he can still run his business and do his business with anyone, anywhere. That would include but not limited to money laundering Russian money, building towers in NoKor and Saudi, and hosting the visiting Heads of States in Mar-a-Lago.
And after being very busy doing all these—running the country and running his business—he also believes in a much deserved R’nR. That’s why at exactly 3 PM every Friday, he’s off to the golf course.
The only good thing about Haspel’s revelation is that we now know what Graham’s job description is:
Official faker of outrage.
4
I don't think that Trump would accept that the Crown Prince was culpable in the murder of Jamal Khashoggi even if he had a signed statement by MBS that he was involved.
2
So the Senate votes to "end the war in Yemen". What makes these guys think that Trump, who views rules and laws as annoyances to be ignored" will follow what they legislate. They enabled this guy. Now if he doesn't do what they want will they simply shrug their shoulders and say "what can you do, he's the president"? Watch these guys, the Republicans, they want to be able to stand up and seem adult, but, at the end of the day, they are spineless.
3
If we want Prince Mohammed out, all we have to do is tell the Saudi Royal Family we will not be dealing with him, and therefore by extension, the Saudis. Present it diplomatically that we look forward to a strong relationship with the Saudis, but we are simply unable to have any relationship with the Crown Prince. Presto, the guy would be replaced so fast, his head would spin. It isn't like the King doesn't have other sons to choose from, and the Prince has created numerous enemies in the palace who would love to see him replaced. However, Trump has too much money riding on Saudi Arabia and he would never put country before his own profits, so even if the congress did the right thing and voted to sever close ties and military sales to the Saudis, Trump would veto such moves.
4
This is what Trump aspires to. The rest of us included. Everything easy, cheap. Friends in high places greasing the skids. legislators who might as well be living first class on the moon.
Why not just bring in all the worlds refugees and array them in such a way that all the militaries in the world can use them for target practice. Bring in Henry Kissinger to translate for Trump.
The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic. Joseph Stalin
Hypocrisy of the American Senators is astounding; blame game on one man death when their country's hand is dripping with blood of ten and thousands of innocent Yemenis men women and children
Americans have been fully complicit with Saudis in the endemic war in Yemen which has long since devolved into a humanitarian catastrophe. 50,000 died between January 2016 and July 2018. The war has also left more than 22 million people—75 percent of the population of Yemen, already one of the poorest countries in the world—in need of humanitarian aid. American law makers were shamelessly mute spectators of the slaughter by Saudis armed with US weapons.
Americans encouragement has bought into Saudi Arabia’s zero-sum calculus: that a military win in Yemen for the kingdom and its allies would be a defeat for Iran, while a negotiated settlement with the Houthis would be a victory for Tehran.
How stupid, to be blinded by its obsession with Iran, the Trump administration is perpetuating an unwinnable war and undermining the likelihood of a political settlement!!
30
Why was Brennan there? Didn't he have to turn in his security pass?
7
Have another look, the picture was taken at the Bush memorial. If only magically, one could switch places between the current president, and GHWB, this nightmare would be over.
2
Money overrides murder. Allowing a horrid war to continue makes us as a country complicit as well. Why do we have such toadys in the cabinet???? The swamp just gets smellier and smellier.
11
Is Iran at all a threat to the US? I think the true destabilizer in the Middle East has always been the Saudis. It wasn’t Iranian or Iraqi citizens that slammed jets into the World Trade Center.
23
Be patient. It will take a while to demonize Saudi Arabia as we did to Iraq and Afghanistan.
@Trento Cloz, thank you. This country has a short memory, more like no memory at all. 15 Saudi flyers trained in this country to eventually kill 3,000 people while the u.s. Allowed Saudi citizens to fly back to Saudi Arabia when no other planes were allowed to fly on the day of the disaster.
3
After Lindsay Graham’s performance at the Kavanaugh hearing, it is hard to stomach him fighting for truth on any front. I imagine he will act strategically in the end.
25
@Andrew Kelm
After the mid-terms, Lindsey is just playing both sides of the fence. We all know he likes to stick with the side that's winning. Covering all the odds.
3
"Saudi Arabia has accused the Houthis of launching rockets at its cities, including Riyadh."
So...did they or didn't they?
And anyway, either the killing of Kashoggi was wrong or it wasn't. If it was, then DO something about it.
7
Donald Trump reportedly had multiple secret meetings with MBS during his campaign in 2016. It appears they worked out some deal between them that has Trump more loyal to MBS than the American people.
11
The Trump administration has effectively removed morality in making deals with foreign governments. It's as if Trump is saying, "The Prince was responsible for an American resident's murder as well as genocide on hundreds of thousands of Yemenis, children in particular. But I can't take these facts into consideration. We need the oil." Trump's moral bankruptcy has never been clearer.
12
All this sound and fury will not amount to much. The senators are merely expressing their "thoughts and prayers," which as we know never means anything, nor does it ever lead to any real change.
11
How cheaply can Trump’s support be bought? He claims that for $110 billion in gun sales he’ll be the Saudi’s ‘best buddy’ but, in point of fact, the Saudi’s have only entered into binding contracts to buy some $14 billion. The value & worth of Trump’s support in the marketplace just keeps getting cheaper & cheaper.
7
@Lewis Sternberg
Um, is 14 billion more or less than 1 billion? Canada has refused to cancel the arms sale to SA of those Armored Vehicles, being used in Yemen right now, because if its cancelled Canadian Taxpayers are on the hook for $1 billion. Pot, meet kettle. Go yell at your own liberal government if you have a problem with SA.
I’d like to believe the Republican senators have found religion, integrity, and the spine to stand up to Trump, but, hahahaha... I can’t even say that sentence without laughing.
More likely than not, Corker and Graham are incensed that they haven’t received their “fair” share... hey, if Trump was willing to be MBS’ PR guy... the money must be really good!
10
The whole world is watching.
14
Why can't they freeze the Saudi royals' assets in the US?
8
I saw Pompeo's flinty-eyed, sneering, arrogant news conference. His answers were obvious lies as he was tap dancing around the truth. He knows very well what happened to Khashoggi. He didn't mind in the least showing that he did, blatant lies to the contrary.
As for Lindsey Graham and colleagues, it will be interesting to see how long they will be able to hang on to their"outrage". Greed, weapons, blood, slaughter and oil rule. It has for decades. It will for decades to come. If 9/11 didn't discourage Graham, nothing will. What hypocrisy.
The Trump administration was only following through with what the U.S. had been doing for decades. They are just more crude coarse about it.
This will likely blow over soon. Saudi Arabia is the NRA of fossil fuels.
11
Republican Senator Shelby said, without irony, “This is conduct that none of us in America would approve of in any way.”
Here’s the truth: The U.S. President has told the world that he does approve. In fact, Trump still willfully insists the Saudi Prince had nothing to do with the horrific butchering of a journalist and US resident, despite his own intelligence agency’s findings.
Trump admires and protects murderous thugs like the Saudi Crown Prince and Putin. It’s time these GOP enablers in Congress woke up and questioned why.
14
Given that Turkey was a co-conspirator in the Khashoggi killing, why are they escaping flak? Turkish agents bugged every aspects of the Saudi presence and knew what the tools brought through customs were for, yet the Turks did nothing to stop their use, because they wanted the Saudis to kill and then be able to publicly expose the murder one step at a time over a prolonged period. Is anyone looking at their killings? How many are there? Come on folks, Turkey is a co-conspirator in every sense of the word. Let them share the blame and guilt as well. And let's take a closer look at their kill rate!
5
After Senator Graham's rant against Democrats in defense of Bret Kavanaugh, I'm inclined to take bin Salman's side. I'm sure the prince is a prince of a guy unfairly attacked for Graham's political purposes.
4
Lindsey Graham and the rest of the sorry-do-nothing GOP will pound their fists and surprise...do nothing to hold the Saudi Crown Prince and his regime accountable. After all, the GOP members of Congress are batting zero for holding Trump accountable for the simple reason Trump owns them lock, stock and barrel. Trump just may burn the GOP down on his way out as he throws the lot of them under the bus for his failures. Who will be the first one?
4
"They (some Republican Senators) argue that the kingdom's support is needed to confront threats from Iran."
That's the last sentence. Talk about burying the lead!
For Kushner-Bolton-Adelson-Pompeo-Trump, Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman served one purpose. Namely, help the Trump Administration gin up some phony reason to start a "preemptive" military confrontation with Iran.
The plan was for the Crown Prince to put on a pretty reformer face to enable Kushner, Bolton, et al to say the Saudis have adopted western values and are being threatened by Iran and "its our duty to confront awful Iran once and for all."
While Kushner was carefully cultivating the Crown Prince and grooming him for his role it probably didn't occur to him to tell the Crown Prince not to cut some guy up and put him in a box.
You can't blame Jared for that. He probably assumed the Prince was smart enough to know that himself.
Oh well, best laid plans...
3
“Somebody should be punished, but the question is: ‘How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?’” Mr. Shelby said.
Answer: you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself.
11
Mr. Trump, what is wrong with personally telling King Salman that he must find a new successor? What is wrong with telling him that the United States, and indeed the world, will find it difficult if not impossible to do business with Prince Mohammad bin Salman once he ascends to the throne?
Under the current conditions, the eventual coronation of MBS will only damage America's relationship with Saudi Arabia for decades to come. Taking action now will help to preserve that relationship and help the Saudi royal family to somewhat repair it's worldwide image.
3
Shelby (R-AL) is in a quandary because he can't see how to punish MBS without punishing the Saudi nation. Let the rest of the ruling Saudi royals decide that. MBS goes, or they all pay the price.
10
"They argue that the kingdom’s support is needed to confront threats from Iran."
Maybe it would be smarter to support Iran because of threats from Saudi Arabia!
Is there any example of SA foreign policy that has helped the US? Not Afghanistan, not Lebanon, not Yemen, not Syria, and not over Qatar. And, there still hasn't been an full explanation of SA involvement in 9/11. How are women's rights in SA compared to Iran?
I don't like either regime, but, the claim that Iran is more dangerous than SA, is very difficult to substantiate.
12
With France, Germany, Canada we can say we have a relationship with the state that transcends the momentary head of government, but to say that about Saudi Arabia misconstrues the nature of the Saudi kingdom. It is the kingdom of the family of Abdul Aziz ibn Saud.
Right from the start I have seen MbS as an impulsive young man with dangerously bad judgement. The Saudis have outlived many prophecies of their demise but with MbS have abandoned the essential conservatism that has seen them through.
As for Trump-- greatest negotiator of all time, obviously.
3
Trump has raised the bar from "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "highest confidence" to absolute confirmation". This is not a helpful measure of investigative conclusions. but it is the standard he wants to normalize and to apply to his own crimes when they come under scrutiny.
3
Now that the CIA director tells the fact of their investigation; it reflects badly on her boss who as usual chooses to twist the truth. She likely will have to go through the ever spinning White House revolving door soon.
9
“Somebody should be punished, but the question is: ‘How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?’” Mr. Shelby said.
Mr. Shelby... you don't.
15
Okay. Now that we have a "smoking saw, " what will you senators do with Donald Trump who has shielded the Saudi crown prince from blame? You Republican senators have been protecting Trump for two years waiting for him to do the right thing but he isn't going to do the right thing! It is high time you people fulfilled the oath you took to defend the Constitution.
26
From the point of view of someone who spent three decades inside the national security establishment, the take-away is obvious. Both Pompeo and Mattis resorted to an old and worn beaucratic linguistic trick when they stated that there was no "direct evidence" linking MBS to Khashoggi's murder. By "direct evidence" they meant a video showing MSB shooting Khashoggi or sawing him up. What they both knew -- and tried to avoid mentioning -- is that MBS was in direct contact with the team that murdered Khashoggi and both monitored and directed every step of the operation.
Gina Haspel is in a rough position. The 'left' hates her because she did what she was told during the 'war on terror'. The 'right' hates her because she will always respond truthfully to direct questions from Congress.
I don't care if you love her or hate her. The simple fact is that she has given the Senate an honest, unbiased assessment of what happened in Turkey. She is the quintesential non-partisan, loyal public servant.
10
@Ken,
Thank you - That is well stated, and I will reassess my own views.
4
Has everyone considered the truthfulness that the profiting arms companies are truly American? What does it mean to be an American company? How many 'American companies' are multinationals that market them selves as American? How many of these companies pay taxes in the USA? How many actually employ Americans in whole or part? What is the actual benefit to the average American of this activity?
How much of the fear and anger that governs the USA is the product of the actions of these companies?
If MBS high fives Putin, commits genocide against the Houthi (who in their own country are patriots for independence), and Trump and the Republicans do nothing, who benefits?
I am sure it is not the Americans I know and love.
10
Another one of trump's man crushes is revealed. Dictators, despots, murderers, "really nice guys"....What a great example trump sets for the world!
8
"“There is not a smoking gun, there’s a smoking saw,” Mr. Graham said.
“You have to be willfully blind” not to see it, he said."
Right, Lindsay. Like you should be lecturing anyone about "willful blindness." Oh, right, you have a primary in 2020.
13
Perfect time for Graham and the rest to jump off the Trump train before it totally runs off the tracks.
6
'The intelligence agency is also believed to have evidence that the crown prince communicated repeatedly with an aide who commanded the team that assassinated Mr. Khashoggi, around the time of the journalist’s death on Oct. 2.'
From what I understand, they only have the metadata, not the actual conversation on those calls. I am pretty sure that if and when they learn of the actual conversations, they will turn out to be quite innocuous.
When we go to a local goat meat shop, the owner's son helps out with the fetching of the goat carcass from the cold storage and cutting it up into small pieces using an electric band saw. And before he proceeds, he holds up a small piece and asks 'how small do you want the pieces to be'. My guess is that the multiple telephone conversations between MBS and his autopsy guy at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul was basically a discussion about how big/small the pieces should be.
So what? Would that be a 'smoking gun'? Hardly. Even Trump would agree with me on this.
1
Well we've had gunboat diplomacy in the past. Now we may have Trump Tower Diplomacy. Is it any less plausible than Trump's rote dissembling?
As the ball cap tagline sez, MAKE aMErica GREAT AGAIN ...
4
Pompeo and Bolton keep singing their one-note songs on Iran. If we truly want Iran to come around, maybe we should provide engineering help for their sinking capital. Some of these guys have targeted Iran since Khomeni's revolution and the US Embassy hostage-taking. They forget that capped 25 years of repression under the Shah after--yes, the CIA--helped overthrow the democratically elected government demanding a greater share of--yes, their own oil.
Recurring themes here? Add the isolation of Qatar, the help Iranian foes Saudis and UAE offered Trump's campaign with hacking, the backing out of yet another multilateral agreement countries had reached to freeze Iran's nuclear program, Trump prostrating before Bibi Netanyahu, a leader who like Trump understands something about corruption and aggressive posturing, and Trump cutting $200 million in aid the the Palestinians, who represent the largest refugee camp in the world. And what do you have? Billions of nervous onlookers, millions of innocent victims.
Could this mess get messier? With Trump, Pompeo and Bolton at the helm, that's a certainty. Nuance and diplomacy to those three are like spreading fine crystal on the road to clear the snow. And ultimately, that will make Americans much less safe, at home and abroad. But then asserting opposites is Trump's MO.
Heightening risks and then offering protection is, as Sociologist Charles Tilly once pointed out, akin to racketeering. I don't think he'd be smiling about this.
10
@omartraore,
fabulously well stated thank you!
3
“There’s no smoking gun” will be this year’s “these (impeachment charges against Nixon” lack specificity speech of soon-ex-US Rep. James Grover, R-2nd.
Does anyone have a recording of House Judiciary Committee Member Barbara Jordan’s reply, as she placed the charges before Judiciary for a final vote? Please, post it somewhere if you do. We need mor Members of Congress with her courage in the face of an early, painful, demeaning death to one of those ALS-category diseases.
She was one of the greats, and has been all-but-forgotten as we end this 45th Anniversary Year of the “Third-Rate Burglary” with our Nation of Laws again in great danger of being destroyed by a top insider - this time running for office while negotiating to build a hotel in the very heart of Nixon’s Greatest Enemy to freedom.
7
Thank you Senator Graham for characterizing the Prince as "A Wrecking Ball". I understand.
2
Aside from determining the present day course of action, why has our nation supported a Kingdom that decapitates it's own people, not just Jamal Khashoggi? I have always found this to be very disturbing. We should not be ruled by a small oil rich Kingdom of dust dwellers practicing an archaic system of justice in a largely civilized world. We will be judged by the company we keep.
I implore Democrats to take the lead on fuels conservation and energy self sufficiency through new technologies. It's a potent and necessary policy for success. Don't wait for Oil Slick Trump to leave. Start now. My fellow Democrats lack leadership.
25
At least a few members of Congress recognize this as a moral dilemma that affects our standing in the world. Trump doesn't because morality is never a consideration for him. He doesn't even pay lip service to morality except when it is useful to attack his adversaries.
8
Trump and Pompeo know MBS was responsible for K's murder.
But they believe that arms sales to the Saudi's and geopolitical considerations are more important.
You and I disagree but they determine foreign policy.
6
But trump says it wasn’t him. What? Are you people doubting our or president?
4
Let's see, the head of state of a foreign country murdered a journalist living in America. Why are we arguing about what to do?
357
@Coseo Isn't the punishment in Saudi for murder beheading? Time for MBS to set an example and lose his own head? Show that no one is above the law? I'm not in favor of beheading but it would seem appropriate in these circumstances.
12
@Coseo Two reason, money and oil.
3
@Coseo
The killing did not happen in the US, he was a legal permanent resident, why is this one man so critical to our country?
What is different between Israel and US killing an enemy of the state vs. Saudi Arabia killing any enemy of the state?
3
When did we start killing journalists from anywhere?
Please list. Thank you!
13
Had they killed him in a drone strike would we not care? Obama killed thousands ( and hundreds of civilians) with drones that did not read the victims their rights before vaporizing them. Two wrongs do not make a right but we are so random in what we care about it is laughable.
5
This is about murder for speaking the truth
8
I am not interested in Mr. Graham's back bone. It must be a loaner.
37
Saudi Arabia will get what it has earned and deserves. In the interim, millions of Yemeni people have done little to harm Saudi Arabia in any way and certainly have done nothing to America or Americans. The distortion involved at whatever level and by whom that continues to involve American tax dollars and America's support of Saudi Arabia in its disgraceful war in Yemen that has plunged the country into the worst humanitarian disaster in the world presently makes all Americans complicit in the tragedy underway there. Did you see the NY Times Magazine story about the famine in Yemen? Did you see little Amal's body ravaged by malnutrition? She died a few days after that picture. What did she do to America? Besides being so monstrous as to murder a man, dismember his body with a bone saw. Dissolve his body in acid or just immorally deny Khashoggi's family closure with the TRUTH about his body is about as bad as any government or human being can be.
MBS is a war criminal, guilty of the deaths of an estimated 85,000 children in Yemen and how many other murders within Saudi Arabia, perhaps that we don't know about since he grabbed power from his sick dad, King Salman. MBS should be shunned by world leaders. His crimes are the worst of insecure despots i.e., other despicable megalomaniac monsters whose pretense as "leaders" is obnoxious. There are a few in the world today.
Trump's covering of MBS' crime says what about Trump? Intentional murder is the world's worst crime.
12
My nephew from China now at Australia National University (he got in UCLA but chose ANU because Trump made "graduate study while Chinese" in America feel like "driving while Black") told me his political science seminar posed the question: Iran or Saudi Arabia -- which would make a better American ally in the Middle East?
The case made for Iran he said was much stronger than those for Saudi Arabia.
From the Chinese perspective of US interests he said the choice of Iran reflected the Western principle of political legitimacy -- whether the population governed has any mechanism for holding its leaders accountable. He contends that the Iranian people have more influence over their political institutions than the Saudi population does. Iran has had more positive experience with the West, and is in many ways already Westernized, whereas the Saudis remain a monarchy grounded in primitive tribal dominance.
A point my nephew stressed was the status of women in Iran, who are over 40% of the salaried workforce, represented in the National Assembly, and constitute over 70% of the science and engineering students in college. Divorce is a court proceeding in Iran whereas in Saudi Arabia the husband can divorce his wife by proclaiming "I divorce thee" 3 times.
I explained that US diplomacy often was little more than the commercial agenda of US corporations, particularly the oil companies. But that isn't how democracy works he said.
I said that's why politics isn't science.
29
"Complicity"?
He wasn't complicit! He was the one who ordered the hit and mutilation and he has repeatedly lied and deceived about this!
How much endless proof does does the Sanate -- or anyone -- need?
And more to the point, WHAT is the Senate doing to DO about this outrage and Trump's blatant complicity in this sickening crime?
13
I thought the whole point of trashing our environment through fracking was to allow us independence from the Saudis. What did I miss?
21
@Stephen Reichard,
possibly best post of the week. Thank you.
Why on earth do we care so much about foreign oil, when we are supposedly a petroleum exporter? Why do we care with all these renewables coming online?
This is another follow-the-money moment. The only way this nonsense happens is if some people are being enriched by it.
(and they have blood on their filthy hands)
4
Trump must have many millions in the fossil fuels and related industries as his long term behavior indicates.
8
So, much of the Senate sees what President Trump does not; Saudi complicity in the killing of an American resident and journalist. Neither a high crime nor misdemeanor, but evidence of Trump's lack of fitness to hold the office of the presidency.
I hope Republican senators remember this in the coming months.
11
Are we really going to allow the little fiefdom of Saudi Arabia to determine our foreign policy? Is their oil really that precious to us that we are still debating support for them?
Congressional Republicans pushed through repeal of America's longstanding prohibition on exporting our crude oil and additionally sold off a portion of our strategic oil reserve after Trump's ascension.
That was a major strategic mistake that placed us in the current position of being second in command to Saudi Arabia.
I propose that the Congress and Trump cease cowering and reinstitute the prohibition on exports of American crude, rebuild the strategic oil reserve, realign our relations with our neighbor Venezuela, a source of local crude suffering under Trump's manias and place us in a position where we are no longer reliant on Saudi Oil.
Regarding military alliances to hedge against any Iranian threat; The idea of Saudi Arabia aligning with Iran in the event we reduce our alliance with Saudi's is unlikely and claiming we need Saudi Arabia as an ally against Iran is a false argument and unsubstantiated. We can remain allied with Saudi Arabia without playing second place to their domination of our foreign policy.
We are leaders in the world, not followers as Trump has made us cower to other nations. I'm surprised the Congress has not taken the lead sooner on this most abominable murder that is true evil, unearthly evil that should have been punished bravely, earlier.
10
Saudi Arabia crippled America during the Arab Oil Embargo in the early 1970's. Saudi Arabia is the seat of power in O.P.E.C. that price fixes thus raising our oil prices. They controlled production for decades to keep the price of oil high. America was reliant on oil for many decades and now is on the verge of self sufficiency if we conduct policy with long term goals in mind as to expedient profit making. I don't like being reliant and second place to such a small brutal kingdom. After Trump is gone, American foreign policy should look kindly on Venezuela which is our neighbor to the south, now suffering gravely that is brimming with oil we could import close to home. We owe it to Venezuela who kindly supplied free heating oil to cold impoverished Americans for many years. They are in our hemisphere where all nations should be looked upon favorably as literally close allies. Trump truly is sabotaging our nation day by day.
8
Trumps mug is carved in stone on the Rushmore of Liars.
6
So the POTUS has been actively engaged in the cover up of a murder.
I guess Complicit® is also a cologne for men.
20
And yet just a few days ago at the summit, there he was, gowns flowing, beaming, laughing, hi-five-ing and whispering with Macron. These days the whole world seems like a joke, except for the people (in Yemen) who are dying. It's enough to make you non-political as a follower, yet politically critical of all.
15
situations like these present an opportunity for those extremely rare and unusual coalitions among groups that don't agree on anything else but find the need to fight a greater evil - in this instance Rand Paul, the group of briefed senators and progressive Democrats who are against the war that Saudi Arabia is waging in Yemen are that group which should come together to stand up against the selling out of the nation. Saudi Arabia funds the fundamentalist school of Wahhabism all over the world to promote their brand of Islam. It is the seed bed of extremism yet United States treats them as favored allies... despite being named as defendants in lawsuits arguing Saudi Arabia helped in events that led to 9/11, how can United States continue supporting this regime? it's just ridiculous and frustrating for any normal observer of world events.
10
This murder has gone viral only because a liberal Washington Post writer was killed. If it had been some other foreigner, you wouldn't have seen such a row.
3
Liberal or conservative, murder can not be condoned. Not sure what the point of your post is..
40
I think we have to trust the cia whether they tell us everything or not. After all, it is a spy agency. I imagine that the actual workers know what information they need and do their best to get it. How would these men and women benefit by not serving this country's interests. With Russia trying to expand, the Middle East in chaos, and China getting more powerful each day, we can only hope this agency does what is necessary and to the best of its ability.
3
@Jane. Jane, the Middle East lives in chaos. Always has, always will.
2
This round goes to Trump IMO - he called a spade a spade. There is nothing “un American” or “indecent” about this act that should shock the very people who have the blood of thousands of Iraqis, Vietnamese, Koreans, Panamians, Laotians, Bengalis on their hands. (All this very much lauded and celebrated by the media of the day). Those who are responsible for murdering foreign leaders (forget the foreign common man), those who let their own innocent little kids be killed (forgotten Sandyhook yet?) should be the least bit concerned about the death of one little former Jihadi.
3
Once North Carolina rids the voting process of its obvious corruption, will we also be rid of Lindsey Graham?
3
Fixing NC's voting issues wont solve the Lindsey GrHam issue, as he is from *South* Carolina. But they do need to be fixed.
3
Senator Graham is from South Carolina.
Senator Graham represents South Carolina, not North Carolina - FYI
"It's not a smokin' gun, it's a smokin' saw."
- Senator Graham
Wow.
2
Photos seem to show former CIA chief John Brennan present with Gina Haspel. Extraordinary if true.
5
@Kerry Kimbrough That photo appears to be in the rotunda.
Ok. So how many psychopaths is this administration going to sidle up to? Politics makes odd bedfellows, but this is getting a bit too kinky.
9
Saudi Crown Royalty, with a gangsta' twist?
3
The Saudi Bone Saw Massacre. The BEST thugs, Dictators and murderers.
You sure can pick'em, GOP.
14
Senator Lindsey Graham
Prince Mohammed & President Trump are wrecking balls.
14
To Senator Graham's comment that he is convinced MBS was behind this killing I respond "big poop." When Graham actually does something with that opinion, like hold The Donald accountable for living up to the U.S.'s standards for basic decency, then I will then Graham for his comments. Until then, they are pointless blather from a man who has so firmly planted himself in Trump's lap as just another fawning poodle.
36
And this is the same “there'll be hell to pay” (#spineless#nobackbone) Lindsey Graham of 2017? Agree with previous posters that the “Graham” cracker will crumble when 45 & minions turn up the heat.
12
You better not pout, you better not cry,
you better not Tweet I'm tellin' you why,
Emoluments Claus is coming to town.
He's makin' a list, checkin' it twice,
gonna find out from Mueller who lied,
Emoluments Claus is coming to town.
He sees you when you're sleeping.
He knows when you're awake.
He knows when you're in a very bad mood
So your paranoia is not in vain.
Oh, you better not pout...
9
Trump cannot call the shots on this. The CIA has briefed members of Congress; Congress must make the call. If it ends arms sales or anything else and has a negative impact on US Manufacturing, so be it. American and Americans do not need to put food on the table with blood money.
17
Lindsay Graham is talking tough right now, but let's just see what finally comes out of this, and whether ultimately his actions match his current words. He's done twisting flips in the past that would have earned him a 10 in Olympic competition.
16
He's the Sheik of Araby (WNPO),
And his love belongs to Trump (WNOP)...'
1
Guess we can kiss trump tower Riyadh goodbye!
#SAD!
4
This is just plain dumb. Leave this thing alone already. Everyone knows he did it. So what? That is not a reason to throw away an important strategic ally and to gift SA to Russian and Chinese. Enough of that insanity, think about strategic interests of US for once.
1
The strategic interests of the United States do not include giving a free pass to cold blooded murderers of journalists. Quite the contrary. The House is Saud is not our friend. They do not serve our long term interests.
12
@David. Insanity is thinking that Saudi Arabia is an ally who supports our strategic interests. This "thing" is a travesty.
7
@David
Somehow after living in Oz for several years I expect this comment from an Australian.
If we knew which gas pumps contain Saudi derived fuel we could decide ourselves whether we want to do business with Saudi Arabia. We know where the romaine lettuce is coming from, why not the gasoline?
9
All I have to say is.... well duh.... No one would dare to that without MBSs ok.
4
The U.S. has often 'looked the other way' in previous administrations but this fine-tuned execution cannot be overlooked. Failure to take aggressive action against the ringleader Prince Mohammed will cause not just the Saudis to think we have no resolve but will embolden other governments in the region, to include Iran.
7
Dumb strategy. Trump/Pompeo should use this blunder by the Prince to do the following:
1. Demand Prince's role as the face of Saudi Arabia be put on hold for a few years. Have another Prince (there's lots of them!) assume role for a few years. Result: MBS learns his power is not unlimited. Other Princes (who might succeed MBS) learn same lesson. Relationship with Saudi Arabia is fully preserved - but we firmly remind and re-establish that we dominate the relationship - not them. Right now, MBS and King must have concluded they really have the dominant position in the relationship. How can that view assure their cooperation with us and our demands/needs in the future?
Realities:
a. Saudi Arabia (and other Sunni nations) will oppose Iran regardless of our support - they benefit from our support and opposition to Iran more than we do. They have been at the Sunni Shia conflict has roots reaching back to the 7th Century - 1400 years ago - and it will be around (open or submerged) until one faction finishes off the other.
b. MBS acted knowing that there would be little recourse to him from the King - so King needs to suffer so he makes MBS suffer.
c. Anybody (that means you, Jared, in particular) who thinks Saudi Arabia can be a trusted ally in any conflict between Israel and Arab countries is an idiot and ignorant of modern history. So the sole role MBS and the Kingdom can play is to NOT create conflicts or controversy or instability in the Mid East.
5
After the major losses at the midterms, certain Republican senators want to appear to have a cartilaginous formation approximating a backbone—maybe because they are looking for the right time to abandon an increasingly obvious loser.
5
I have yet to hear why the murder of a Saudi, in Turkey, by other Saudis should be a major issue for the US. If it is a question of morality shouldn't China be a bigger concern? Shouldn't the same self-righteous Senators be demanding a break in relationship with China, a police state, whose crimes exceed those of the Saudi's by orders of magnitude? Or is this whole story a matter of hyporitical, pompous, posturing and photo ops. After all millionaire Senators would not wish to effect there personal financial connections to China not those of their corporate masters and they know they have no responsibility and that the President will pursue our national interests despite them while they pontificate.
1
pretty sure he's a. American citizens
Again, WHO CARES? One journalist and all these Senators have consistently votes to bomb and murder hundreds of thousands of people. What a joke.
2
I care
14
Blah blah blah. Gimme that cheap gasoline so I can dive my behemoth pickup and suv to go grocery shopping.
Nothing’s gonna change til we change, folks.
12
Kill a journalist (an American resident) at an embassy in Turkey and I won't lose any support from my base.
Sound familiar?
Speaks volumes about your base?
5
Saying that "In any case, our relationship is with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia," [not MBS], is like saying "our relationship is not with Louis XIV, but with the Kingdom of France." In absolute monarchies, l’etat c’est moi.
4
Issue an arrest warrant for MBS. If he steps foot in any country with an extradition treaty, ship him to the US to stand trial.
3
Donald Trump believes that the sector of the press that does not shower him with encomia is The Enemy of the People. It´s clear that MbS agrees with that proposition and that we have here a meeting of the minds. The Saudis can´t do much about it, assuming that some of them are so inclined, but we can. November 2020 is just around the corner.
2
Trump would bend over forward for the Saudis if it benefited him financially. What a craven, amoral, self -dealing slab of blubber. Hopefully his deluded 'base' will realize they've been had and that they mean nothing to the trump family of cynical grifters other than as useful tools.
12
Lindsey Graham trying to act like he’s an important person with gravitas and big ethics. News flash, Lindsey, You are a trump chump. Nobody will ever forget that. Don’t act like you care now.
14
Would anyone be talking about this here if Khashoggi hadn’t written for an American newspaper? Freedom of the press just seems to have blown past even papal infallibility.
1
Lindsey didn't like golf all that much anyway.
3
Of course Mbs (aka Abu Bullet) is responsible.
What is more interesting is that our dearest Senator Graham, seeing the results of the mid-term election, suddenly transforms himself into 'Capt America' defending American values.
Hypocrisy, soaked in southern gravy. Lindsay, why didn't you hold to American values in the Kavenaugh hearings?
11
Can somebody explain to me why the Iranians are the “bad guys” and the Saudis and Israelis are the”good guys”?
7
Putin would never have killed anyone in a consulate - no way to deny it with a straight face. It's no surprise that MBS would murder an opposition journalist, but in a consulate?! The fact that he would do it in a consulate and then be surprised when that becomes a problem shows that as a dictator, he is out of touch with the practical limits even of nominally absolute power. As Trump said, "The worst cover-up ever." I think what really outrages us about this murder, more than other murders, is, aside from its brutality and cruelty, is that this is Trump's - and Kushner's - pal. Not just a dictator with whom they have to work - but their bud.
5
“This is conduct that none of us in America would approve of in any way,” Mr. Shelby said.
Individual 1, whom you support so earnestly, is covering for him.
3
Senator Graham is annoying in his self-importance. He should dial this down.
Yes, the Prince ordered this reporter’s death. And it’s a terrible fact and Putin’s amusement is disgusting.
So it requires punishment, sufficient to this horrendous crime. It does not require more of Senator Graham’s performing for cameras. Exit stage left, Sir.
6
I’m shocked, shocked that there’s gambling occurring in this establishment.
Your winnings, sir.
Oh, thank you.
5
If everything we know is true, Jamal Khashoggi was a private individual who, for his own purposes, voluntarily walked into the Saudi Arabian embassy in Ankara and met an untimely death, possibly at the hands of Saudi government agents. This was a murder committed by Arabs, on Turkish soil, of a man not even an American citizen.
Why is this our concern?
1
Eh, maybe because we are all human. Crazy as that sounds.
11
Rep Chris Stewart (R-UT) said "this happens all over the country." And suggested that we need to be friends with the Saudi's to fight against Sharia Law. I'm guessing hacking someone up with a saw to keep them from talking is not much better than Sharia Law.
3
@Opinionated READER - under Sharia Law, a true believer can kill a blasphemer with impunity - bone saw, poison, sword, bulldozer, whatever.
3
Well, "this year" is just about over... so is Trump.
2
Trump and his administration are getting totally played by Saudi Arabia, North Korea and Russia. It’s a staggering display of American weakness by a president in over his head
10
@Dr E - ordinarily I'd say, "Right on!", but, in this case, I think Trump is actually doing something he thinks is the right thing. He sees Saudi Arabia as a buffer against Iran. Trump isn't played by anyone unless he allows it. But there's that pesky murder thing he has to concern himself with. Sad.
How can we make sense of the public positions taken by Mattis and Pompeo that there is no evidence linking MBS to the Khashoggi murder, when MBS guilt is obvious to all Senators who were briefed with the evidence?
Both Pompeo and Mattis are regraded for their intellect. Mattis is apolitical, while Pompeo was an avid partisan who led the Benghazi (dare I say) witch-hunt. Nevertheless he is considered brilliant,number one in his class at West Point.
So waz up? My theory is that Mattis and Pompeo consider their primary national security assignment keeping the crazy, ignorant Trump on a steady course, away from the nuclear “football”. They are aware of Trump’s demand for blind loyalty, and the duo has earned Trump’s trust by fawning obsequiousness. They know Trump wants to exculpate his son-in-law’s BFF, and a source of past and future “investments.” So they say what Trump wants to hear, knowing that unless their opinions are supported by the CIA Congress would not be satisfied....and they were right. CIA Chief Haspel briefed select Senators in the CIA assessment....and the truth has been told...but Mattis and Pompeo can maintain their relationship with their boss.
My question is whether Mattis andPompeo will eventually stop placating Trump’s whims and
mutiny against his reign of error.
,
2
The political winds must be changing if the human weather vane, Lindsey Graham, is disagreeing with Donald Trump in public.
7
Graham has been all over the "map" on Trump. He cannot figure how to both keep in Trump's pocket and at the same time show he has some spine. He proved his lack of independence when he was screaming at an intelligent woman who was sharing her experience with the Senators about being sexually abused by our soon to be newest Supreme Court Justice. After that, whatever comes out of his mouth, means nothing. All it proves is he is open to manipulation. As his President states often "SAD".
7
So whats the matter with Mike Pompeo and Mattis? They just believe whatever Trump tells them to believe?
5
@David Gold Pompeo is a huge disappointment.
1
That's nice that a few GOP senators now believe the Saudi prince is guilty. What are they going to do about it? Will they hold trump's feet to the fire? Will they force him to give up his and his family's financial ties in SA and punish the Saudis? Puh-leeze. Of course they won't. Of course he won't. The GOP has given up their duties to serve the American people and trump never ever had any consideration of serving anyone but himself.
7
This has become an old and tiresome story.
In an absolute monarchy like Saudi Arabia's, after all, the man in charge is almost certain to know about assassination plots that involve his citizens.
So there was never any real doubt that the Crown Prince had some role in Khashoggi's killing.
What is not clear, however, is why this should be a great matter of state for the United States.
Saudi Arabia is a sovereign nation that must be left to choose its own form of government.
And when it chooses to eliminate one of its citizens who is viewed as a traitor, other nations with different values and forms of government have no right to intervene.
Talk is cheap, action is the only position going forward. That, of course, takes guts, something lacking in Congress, especially those Republicans, but not limited to them, as Democrats would need to get on board to have any long range change of power in the House of Saud. Business as usual, death, denial, and destruction, for not only those in countries that thrive on it, but those that are either dependent on them, or unwilling to let the relationship go, in favor of truth, decency, Democracy, and bonding with only those countries who favor the same. What direction will Congress take going forward, as that is the only question that needs an answer.
4
Well, now, why didn't these Senators not comment on the public statements from Pompeo and Mattis? If the Secretaries of State and Defense are not willing to support their own intelligence services, but rather prostrating and prostituting their honor and themselves before Trump, what else can we expect when Trump goes off the rail?
We should expect desperate actions from Trump as his crimes are being uncovered. The scariest scenarios will come from actions that may involve these two cabinets.
2
Donald Trump doesn't care in the slightest that US Intelligence has found with "high confidence" that MBS was behind Khashoggi's murder. He will always side with dictators and journalist-killers (from Putin to MBS) in whom he has a financial interest. We know very well by now that Trump does not believe in the existence of "evidence." He doesn't know what it is. All he has to do is say he believes or disbelieves something, and that's enough for him. He sees autocrats as "strong leaders," and habitually claims that "nobody knows" all kinds of things -- the complexities of healthcare coverage or how hackers are traced -- that everyone else knows but him. By now, we see him -- and those who support him -- for who they are. And the moral reckoning (there will be one) is going to be fearsome.
3
The president should announce that the United States government and its representatives will have nothing whatever to do with MBS.
Such shunning might cause the King to rethink the line of succession--but likely not. It likely would serve as no more than an embarrassment to MBS, but it would at least do that. And it would keep us from shaming ourselves by consorting with MBS, despite our own government's conclusions that he is, in effect, the torturer and murderer of a legal US resident and member of the US press.
Our military aid to the Saudis in their war in Yemen stands on separate ground. We should withdraw our support for the mass slaughter there for reasons that should require no explanation.
4
@Daniel M - Hear, hear! Thank you for calling out the slaughter of the Yemenis, so often forgotten in all this.
And @NYT readers: The Yemeni people need our assistance - the lack of resolve to get out of this humanitarian crisis might come down to who's profiting in the military-industrial and therefore want to continue to look the other way- but my early Christmas charitable $$$ have gone to UNHRC - please help too if you can!
1
@Shelley B,
I have made several extra emergency contributions to IRC, and will request that for all my xmas presents from my family. It's what I can do.
I encourage everyone to do the same.
If only my own country would get the heck out of the way.
MBS is no different than Roman emperors, nor different from coddled boy-kings. It is likely he will have a similar fate. A tenure filled with short-lived delight, followed by annihilating defeat and death. His handsome face lopped off. Perhaps by the same experts who lopped off Khashoggi.
MBS usurped power. It’s possible he’ll feel the reactive vengeance. Ironic, if not poetic, justice.
1
Forget about our President - Congress can stop arms sales to Saudi Arabia - let's see if they do it. It took the murder of one journalist; how about the tens of thousands of civilians in Yemen the Allied Forces killed - it was our bombs they used. It was taking place under Obama and now Trump - neither had the tenacity to stand up to the Barbarians at the Gate - the Saudi Prince and his government. Congress can close the gate...I'm not holding my breath.
3
And, then there is, of course, the fact that 15 of the 19, 911 hijackers are from Saudi Arabia and the fact that Osama Bin Laden and his wealthy and influential family are Saudis.
That never stopped Republicans who were hellbent on pursuing what became a multi-trillion dollar war against "terrorism" instead of punishing the country most responsible for terrorism the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.
This is about placating the American oligarchs, plain and simple. There are billions to be gained in arms sales. American politicians, no matter what they say, are not going to go against their wealthy donors.
24
Providing cover for that Saudi murderer makes Trump complicit in the murder itself in my opinion.
20
It will be interesting to see how long Lindsey "The Rock" Graham sticks to his principles if Trump turns the heat up on him. But if Trump appears to give Lindsey a pass on this, that fact might suggest that a good cop/bad cop strategy is in play. Pompeo can inform Riyadh that Trump is personally sympathetic to the Saud prince and not the sawed journalist, but Congress has forced his hand.
Pulling the plug on US support for the Saudi incursion into Yemen should be an easy call. This egregious humanitarian disaster serves no US strategic purpose. Iran may be opportunistically fanning the flames but would not be so foolish as to make a major commitment of troops or resources to a ragtag insurgency in a poor country situated in the Saudis' back yard. Compared to Saudi Arabia under MBS, Iran is a relatively rational player.
16
"Whatever the outcome — the measure, as currently written, needs only a simple majority to pass — the votes will be primarily symbolic. Even if the measure passes the Senate, there is little chance that House lawmakers will consider it this year."
This is just the foreign policy version of "thoughts and prayers." Talk is cheap.
11
The GOP senators seem to know something we don't know but soon will. Is it the time that the GOP slowly walks away from Trump as these guys and others remaining in GOP may be looking to the future with a damaged Trump out of office and power. Too many shoes potentially about to drop for smart politicos not to hedge their bets.
4
All my respect Sir. Salute! If basic human rights are overlooked and everyone can be bought, we will all be under the same horrible sword.
4
He did it! You only say he might or might not have done it if you have something other than the reputation of the country in mind. There's nothing complex about Trump. He's all about himself and his money. The only part of his soul that is not owned by the Saudis is the property of Moscow. America is nowhere in the equation...
7
When crises such as this one emerge, one hears the claims that this is not what we do as Americans. Yet, in many respects nothing has really changed. Anyone who wants to understand the deeply corrupt involvement of the government of the United States in a nearly limitless number of immoral actions in support of murderous foreign governments need not search very far. And for the first time in many years, we have a "president" and his minions who are almost proud of their disdain for those stupid conventions that constrain the behaviors of most other humans. And it is done in our names. And millions of Americans voted for and support this government. Immorality has a home on Pennsylvania Avenue.
7
The US should not allow Saudi Arabia to receive any US nuclear plant building design or materials. Right now there is an active bid in the pipeline that should be ended.
MBS is a butcher just like Putin, Erdogan, Duterte, et.al.
trump’s kind a guy!
12
Senator Graham:. "willful ignorance"? You probably should have thought of that condition before you accepted Trump as the GOP candidate.
8
I have to apologize to Paul Krugman.
I commented on his 10/22 OpEd that the US would let MBS and Saudi Arabia get away with murder because this is the sort of thing they do all the time, and the US Congress is a bunch of spineless enablers who care more about money than people. But thanks to the hard work of journalists everywhere, especially at WaPo and NYT, the Saudi house of cards is beginning to teeter. Whether MBS will ever pay for his crimes against humanity is still to be determined. But Mr. Krugman was insightful and correct, and I'm sorry for my 10/22 comment.
8
Helpful perhaps to remember that Senate Republicans are furious because Trump, their president & the head of their party, lied to them and the American people and because the Saudi ‘commitment’ to buy American guns amounts to some $15 billion in actual signed contracts and some $95 billion in unsubstantiated ‘maybes’.
6
Graham and Corker are peeved? Gee I bet Trump is shaking in his boots. I think it is only lip service on the two senators part. They want to at least put on act like they have a spine. My bet is next week Graham will be playing golf with Trump and Corker will be counting his post senate lobby bucks. Waiting on The Right to put country before Trump is like watching grass grow in the desert.
6
O.K. Senators; now that you are convinced that prince Salman was, indeed, the assassin of Khashoggi, what are you going to do? Arraign Trump, as you should? Cut relations with the Saudis...unless and until they dethrone prince Salman, and assign someone less corrupt and cruel, someobe who can take criticism and even thank for it so to do better next time?
3
What should Trump/USA do? This journalist shouldn't have been killed like that, but he wasn't a saint either; not a friend of America
NYC Dweller, what actual facts cause you to suggest Khashoggi is not a friend of the U.S.?
2
So, the only question is how much money is Trump and his family getting from supporting MBS? Are the Saudis providing enough cash to Kushner to pay off his white elephant on 5th Ave.? How many rooms in Trump's hotel are rented out to the prince and his friends? With Trump it is always about the money. Go for it, NYT. Follow the money.
12
I can’t much tell the difference between the President of the United States and the murdering ‘royal’ head of a repressive and kleptocratic mobster-theocracy...
It seems clear that Mr. Trump fervently desires that there be no discernible difference.
“Getting Away with It!” is his ONE focus. Doesn’t matter (much) exactly What... or Who... just as long as it is an ever more audacious lie.
How are things in the bunker Donny? Did you get ONE MORE scoop of ice cream than anyone else today?
4
The American public deserves to hear the evidence. What/Who are the GOP protecting?
Why exactly do they support selling arms to Saudi Arabia — the country that bred the very same people that killed over 3000 Americans on the “homeland” — so they may wage genocide on innocent people? Please, let’s have full disclosure. Tax returns, to start.
4
GOP Senator's are at it again. They run toward a mic to give their views and publicly state they do not agree with Trump. Then they do nothing. How many times have we seen and heard Lindsey Graham and Bob Corker attach themselves to a camera, for personal exposure, but give us no real results? They think the American people are so malleable, they just have to stand in front of a camera and tell us what to think and no actions are required. Actions speak louder than any empty words. What are THEY going to do about the Prince initiating a murder of a journalist? They are not the only Trumpers that fall in line behind a president and who will lie and deceive for him. Pompeo and Mathis have egg all over their face for the muddled performance they gave, when they split hairs to try to deceive us and carry the Trump line, that there was no evidence that the Saudi Prince was involved. Most people would feel extremely uncomfortable pushing a false narrative. Pompeo and Mathis seemed quite comfortable in giving one. They did not expect people to view this as inadequate and a hindrance to the truth. Both Mathis and Pompeo came off as Trump foils to actually finding out what happened. Pompeo's admitted he was there, because Trump asked him to override the CIA director (Gina Haspel) and put Trump's spin on Khashoggi's murder. When the egg comes off of Pompeo's and Mathis' face they will now be seen as two men, willing to sell their soul credibility and trustworthiness.
31
“This is conduct that none of us in America would approve of in any way,” Mr. Shelby said.
Well, almost none.
22
We look weaker as a Nation than at any time my 65 years of life.
Our projected weakness leaves us vulnerable on all fronts.
This must change.
Soon.
24
45 is right, and the CIA and congress are both wrong. They just don’t know and aren’t as smart as 45.
1
There are plenty of examples proving that neither the CIA nor the Congress are smart.
1
Have you ever heard of irony?
But just to be literal as you like, they are definitely smarter that 45. The incidents that you are referring to are instances where they deliberately choose the wrong path. Guess what, 45 actually believes that that wrong parts is the correct, smart option.
Wow, even Lindsey Graham is smarter than Trump. It's pretty sad that two of the least intelligent people on TV have that much power...
10
A murder is not a "tragic event," it is a crime of purpose, and MBS is a murderer, period.
40
Got to hand it to the Prez. His provocative stalling tactics may just work. If he's seriously on the hook for past misadventures with the Saudis, now he can blame Congress for going against his better judgement.
2
The President doesn't care about the country, he cares about himself and his family. What are the Trump family interests in Saudi Arabia? Follow the money
20
@Rob He only needs loans. He needs money, they have money.
2
Mr. Graham appears to have acquired a new talent, the ability to identify any individual that is in his words "willfully blind". Blind to the evidence clearly supporting MBS's involvement in the death of Mr. Khashoggi. Mr. Graham needs to use this talent to revisit some of his other pronouncements and maybe come out with different conclusions. Take your new skill and apply it to other matters of grave importance now facing us. You may find other areas where you are at odds with people who deny facts in favor fiction.
8
I haven’t heard a single Democrat senator advocating a boycott against Saudi Arabia until they dethrone MBS.
2
This reminds me of the scene from Godfather II when Michael Corleone is being investigated by a Senate Committe and the committee is questioning one of the "button men" of the family - "Did Michael Corleone give you a direct order to kill someone or was there a "buffer" between you and him that gave the order?" The button man laughs and responds "I never spoke to Michael Corleone directly but yeah...the family had a lot of buffers."
85,000 children killed! How many Syrian children? Do you actually think this is going to end well for humans? Nah Some advice, if you are thinking about having children, think rationally, don't! Certainly, persuade your children from having children themselves. Russia murders dissidents, Saudi Arabia murders dissidents and funds others (9-11) to murder Americans, they were not punished for that so why does anybody think that they will be punished for this. Capitalism is greed, pure and simple. Where there is money and lots of money involved, some will sell their "souls", so many have. Humans are still paddling in the Infant pool, so violent, so greedy, so ugly. It's a house of cards, let's hope that some of those uber rich corporatists and wealthy people out there are benevolent rulers and not the malevolent ones we seem so plagued with.
4
The way Trump sidles up to mass murderers and butchers like Kim Jong Un, Putin, and other homicidal tyrants who he admires, I can't imagine he was horrified when the news broke. I wonder if it gave him some ideas about how he could use this sort of tactic to fatten his bank account and increase his power. I wouldn't put anything past him.
7
Walks like a duck, talks like a duck...
7
“All that is required for Evil to Triumph.... is for Good Men to do nothing “......history would tend to reinforce this old adage.
8
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Got ethics???
2
"to cut off arms sales and military aid for the war in Yemen, and impose new sanctions on those responsible for the killing, including the crown prince.".
That's one option . Another option according to Islamic law is, cut off Mohammed bin Salman head.
8
Lindsey Graham says one thing about the Khashoggi atrocity, but his actions as Trump's front man and lap dog say another.
15
Well if anybody would know what a wrecking ball looks like, up close and personal, I guess it would be Graham. He's been following one around like a puppy for well over a year.
8
International relationships are not about justice but interests. That is why in WWII, the Allies had no real issue joining with the Soviet Union and its mass murderer leader, Joseph Stalin. As Churchill once observed, “If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favourable reference to the devil in the House of Commons.” The truth is that no one in the West will abandon Saudi Arabia and allow for the destabilization of the entire region, thereby playing directly into Iran and Russia’s hands, no matter how despicable the crime. The Roman adage, “let justice be done though the heavan’s fall”, has no application in matters of state. And before anyone gets on their high moral horse, imagine the blow-back when people here complain about the inevitable eincreases in gasoline and heating oil brought on by any Saudi political instability.
In the end, this is all moral preening that will have no practical effect. As far as I know, not one European power - who otherwise preach so earnestly to others about justice, proportionality and the rest - has so much as recalled its ambassador, and that, frankly, is all you need to know about where this is all leading. Saudi Arabia murders the regimes political opponents, Turkey does too, though it seems to prefer to incarcerate them. The only country in the region which doesn’t is Israel - the true rogue state. Yet, it gets pilloried for bringing Western liberal democratic values to a region with very little tolerance for such things.
4
First, we no longer have to have Saudi oil.
Second, Churchill et al had plenty of probs with Stalin and the Soviet Union.
Third...funny how none of the “realists,” ever wanna go do the fighting. Gee, I wonder why?
1
@Charlie in NY
The alliance with the Al-Saud and Likud let to 9/11. Was that in American national interests or theh 7 trillion lost in wars in the Muslim world?
@Robert I am not sure what point you are trying to make. While oil is a fungible commodity, what I wrote was that Europe was dependent on Middle East oil far more than the US. However, destabilizing that market would have worldwide negative impact - so, like it or not, we are stuck being involved.
The problems we have with the Saudis absolutely pale in comparison to those the West had with the Soviet Union, and that includes Saudi war crimes in Yemen.
Your comment about “realists” is an irrelevant talking point. You might wish to acquaint yourself with Orwell’s essay on pacifists.
Death solves all problems; no man - no problem! - Joseph Stalin
6
What about our assassination of Anwar al-Awlaki in 2011? We used a Hell Fire missile. Both he and Mr. Khashoggi were Al Qaeda advocates who never fired a shot, but constituted a threat because of their utterances. We would never do such a thing? Are you sure?
Tomorrow, while watching the funeral of a man who was president remember.. his son sent the Saudis home free on the day after 9/11. That's the kind of stand-up-to-the Arabs-Republicans are world famous for. Duty. Honor. Country.
+++++
Hand salute. Two. Cue the kazoo band.
5
Now, if only Lindsay Graham could find the courage to call for the removal of the "crazy" heading our own nation, who encouraged MBS, Putin and Duterte in their criminal conduct? Pot meet kettle.
5
... an estimated 85,000 children are believed to have since died of hunger, and 14 million people — half of Yemen’s population — could soon be threatened with starvation.
... which is targeted in a separate bombing campaign.
USA - MBS - USA
5
Did the bipartisan group hear the audio tape of the killing? Why not? The story doesn't describe what evidence Gina Haspel provided. She must have given the senators something more than a tell.
2
@DLKrajnak It was all in Arabic. They should listen to a man's screams? We know he's dead, and how. Although I detest John Bolton, he was right. What could be learned?
@John Harper
The story should say they didn't hear the tape because ... whatever. Others in the administration heard it somehow. Don't Trump et al have interpreters? Maybe hearing those screams would change some minds about the U.S. continuing to provide aid for strikes in Yemen. There are lots of civilian screams there.
“This is conduct that none of us in America would approve of in any way,” Mr. Shelby said. Wrong, Senator. The man at the top seems to be okay with it. So what are you going to do about it other than make statements that sound good but are meaningless?
8
Its way past high time that trump is held accountable for his epic failures in (to name just a few) trade, immigration, taxes, graft, his support for MBS, and his complicity in the murder of Khashoggi. The Republicans were given a stern warning by the American electorate last month. Graham and his cohorts have a lot of work to do and they would do well to let trump know that he will be held responsible for his shocking ignorance and complete incompetence. Tic Toc
4
So what if he was behind it? What are they gonna do? Nothing because Americans are not gonna pay $5+ for a gallon of gas. Realpolitik.
4
Killing someone in a consulate is not a common occurrence. It has not happened in all of modern history.
If it does happen it must be that orders were given by some powerful person in the govt. In this case the head of the Saudi Arabian govt must take personal and collective responsibility for the murder of Khashoggi.
Justice can only be done by removing the govt. of Saudi Arabia from office. The powers and agencies responsible for upholding international law must act decisively and powerfully to remove MBS from office. All the countries of UN must authorize sanctions against Saudi Arabia and cut off all diplomatic relations - until MBS is removed and face trial for murder.
4
Leave the middle east to their own devices. Have nothing whatsoever to do with any of them including Israel.
1
All the lies and the truth still emerges. The GOP will squeak as if they are outraged and will do nothing. Trump has them all in the palm of his hand. I hope Pompeo and Mattis feel so proud of their allegiance. Not to our country... but to the ring of Trump.
5
Can the congress pass a budget item to compensate Trump and his family for loss of business so that Trump can punish Saudi Arabia?
2
Trump's "maybe he did, maybe he didn't" response is expected, given the fact that he simply will not criticize the Saudi prince nor Putin because he's in their back pocket. What rankles me is how Mattis and Pompeo, men of honesty and integrity, have become puppets of Trump. Is serving as Secretary of Defense and Secretary of State more important than being honest with the American people?
4
Since when does American foreign policy requires consistency regarding moral principles? I am appalled at the continued support the US provides to MBS. However, from the point of view of American policy makers it makes perfect sense. The trade off is straightforward; Please the military industrial complex and ensure the strategy against Iran (it is reall an Israeli backed idea) remains firmly in place. All that the US gets at the expense of a few tens of thousands of lives in Yemen. After all who really cares about starving children 15,000 kilometres away? I understand the logic of the policy, but I would never do it if I were in power.
Can the policy be defended on the basis of a real security threat to the US and the world if Iran were to be left alone and allowed to develop nuclear weapons? Honestly I am not sure. But the image published by the Times of that little girl starving to death, tells me that suppporting Saudi A is not the way to go about things. Bomb Iran if you must. Bombing nuclear facilities is much better than helping a brutal dictator and putting countless of innocent lives on the line.
Trump is a hypocrit, but at least this time he had the guts to say that arms sales are more important than avoiding a famine in Yemen. Not the kind of guy I would shake hands with.
2
One wonders if Secretary of State Pompeo received back channel bribes from the Saudis for publicly lying about this. In any case, his credibility is gone forever and he should resign.
8
The time is ripe for MBS and Trump to exchange high-fives; like MBS and Putin.
4
The US arranged and paid for, under the leadership of Kissinger for the murder of Salvador Allende.
Mr. Kissinger is still a free man, moving about in the US, an honored guest at US official events.
The moral hypocrisy of Americans outraged about SA is hard to take
4
I would like to know the answer to "Why does Saudi Arabia even need aid from the US"?
Especially since SA can buy and sell America ten times over, if they wanted to.
3
Now Focus.
15 out of 19 September 11th hijackers were born and raised in Saudi Arabia, and so was Osama bin Laden.
On May 20, 2017, U.S. President Trump and Saudi King Salman bin Abdulaziz Al Saud made “an amazing Deal.” The U.S. will arm the Saudi regime in exchange for US $110 billion.
Khashoggi fled the Saudi regime but he didn’t go far enough. He came to the U.S. The caveat to the mandate for the assassination must have been ‘just don’t do it here.’ Surely it would have dawned on even the dumbest Americans that they are de facto subjects of the Saudi realm, if Khashoggi had been assassinated on American soil. There would need to be real repercussions. What would happen if the deal was quashed? We will never know. The U.S./Saudi Deal is among the smaller arms deals that Saudi Arabia has made with the Western World. They are amassing an indefatigable arsenal and aiming it directly at world domination. Only Germany — Germany — has withdrawn from their deal to supply arms to the Saudi Realm, in the aftermath of the Khashoggi assassination. Now the Saudis are demanding an UNMONITORED (not to be confused with U.N. monitored) nuclear program. The regime has all the oil and will have all the arms needed to keep it. We are doomed.
3
For too long now the US Gov't has supported the Islamic Fascist state of SA due to our "need" for their oil. Our nation's foreign policy should not and cannot support such a repressive regime based on an economic desire for cheap oil. The US needs to implement a WWIII-level investment program to advance the national / global implementation of non fossil fuels, including renewables, battery systems and next-gen nuclear power for baseload.
4
Two things are certain: MBS ordered the murder; and the Republicans will make some noise but will do nothing, other than make noise. Sometimes, when their embarrassment over their total submission to Trump simply becomes too extreme, they make a little noise to pretend that they might do something - on this as on everything else. At the end of the day, they will not really challenge Trump, on anything, at all, whatsoever. The bottom line is that they are happy with the corrupt, fascist America Trump represents and they would like to see him succeed. They only wish he kept up appearances better.
4
there is no surprise here, trump has been trying to help the Saudi's cover this murder by putting out it could have Rouge people from the start. this is also why the CIA Director didn't attend last weeks briefing, she knows the truth. now we all do. the Prince is the person who ordered the murder be carried out. trump wants his long time attorney to get a very long sentence in jail for crimes he pled guilty to, not because of the crimes, but because he has helped the Mueller team with information about him( trump). now trump wants to give the Saudi Prince a free pass for his involvement in this murder. trumps sense of justice would be more like a mafia boss would think, put the "dirty rat under the jail". my fellow Americans, these are very strange times.
3
This is a no-brainer. MBS must go, and this is possible because MBS is not the head of state (unlike someone like Assad, who has the brutal final say.) The King of Saudi Arabia must find a new crown prince. And the US needs to demand that or no more support.
It is absolutely not acceptable that we are in bed with this barbarian.
8
There is no "nation" here. There is a puritanical religious clique allied to a louche armed gang controlling first a profitable tourist spot, Mecca, and more recently a fortuitously found bunch of oil wells.
Their only claim to legitimacy is that of force: in a crucial tribal raid in the 1930s the Saud gang had a portable radio and the other guys didn't. 1-0. Point Saudi.
It is a sign of America's complicity in this gangsterism that George Washington Univesity, an arm of the State Department in many things, in the late 20th Century celebrated a bogus Centenary of the Saud family's rule. Sheerest horse-pucky, along with the equally phantasmagorical ancient histories of Wahabism that these people can deliver on their demand for payment in shekels.
There is no reason this "prince" should be able to travel outside Arabia's borders. There is no reason for American or other experts to maintain the "country"'s aircraft, missiles, turbines, or other moving parts.
The control of the well-heads has always been by arbitrary armed force. There is every reason for this to be enforced by international mandate until the legitimate governance of the country becomes settled.
2
I just hope that Congress is not just saying (once again) what they believe is politically expedient. This president does not have the morality aptitude or the courage to deal with this or any issue that might interfere with his desire to maintain a show of strength. Congress needs to do this for him and, more importantly, for the country.
4
The Saudis have shown their true colors. We should cancel all agreements including military sales, military support for their Yemen genocide, oil/gas purchases, and diplomatic relations until an acceptable regime is put in place. This is the final straw for one of the key sponsors of the 09/11 attacks.
7
And it took Congress how long to speak out against Trump's defense of the Crown Prince? There is no doubt in my mind that there is an advantage to Trump personally rather than national security in his decision to cast doubt that MBG could wriggle through and still maintain innocence. Shameful...both Trump and the Congress! If this had been the act of any allies that Donald does not see as either present or future personally beneficial relationships, he would have condemned the act from the beginning. Additionally, Saudi's was in Yemen is leading to massive famine and further destabilizing the Middle East.
4
MBS is the third crown prince since January 2015. Given the instability and international ire surrounding the Kingdom, it is not inconceivable that given appropriate political and diplomatic pressure on King Salman that MBS could be jettisoned too. The problem lies with Trump. He has convinced himself that the petro-billions are some golden Elysium of fools gold, visible through the desert haze. Second, he has starved himself of functional allies to rely on for diplomacy and a coalition for change. There is no moral compass. I’m reminded of Wilde’s Lord Darlington, who quipped that a cynic was 'a man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.’
Saudi Arabia can and must change the Crown Prince. Sen Graham and others must use strategic international muscle to bring this about. Forget pressure on funding in Yemen, it’s time to oust the cowardly pretender. We cannot have a situation arise where MBS becomes king and since it is an absolute monarchy, he would go unchallenged for decades, spawning a new royal lineage.
The fact this murder involved an American resident, working for a prominent Washington newspaper, gives it unyielding electricity, forcing the killing to the top, “most compelling issues” of modern times. Without Trump, the Senate must be inventive, smart and act without delay.
6
kudos to Senator Graham for being so direct. I has hoping to hear the same from HRC who criticized Trump as being part of the coverup allegedly for his own interest, but skillfully avoided criticizing MBS or the Saudi royalty.
2
Why did you expect different? When will people learn that both parties are different sides of the same coin but both serve elites.
1
Many of the commenters take issue with Ms. Haspel's credibility. Could the new CIA director's integrity be precisely the reason that Trump selected her? I'm betting he knew occasions would arise when he would not want the truth to be known, verified, or believed, and so he put a person in charge of the CIA whose every utterance would be questioned.
And I used to think the man had no smarts at all.
1
And the Senate leadership is complicit in the Saudi-led genocide in Yemen.
23
Picture of Haspel --> And a woman shall lead them. See: shepherd; sheep; Bah (humbug).
4
So the big high give and grins that Putin and KBS gave one another in Argentina was each of them congratulating the other on picking Trump's pockets in the high stakes game of diplomatic poker? No? Yes!!
20
@Ach
That, but equally: the takes-one-to-know-one jubilation of two murderers.
3
The Saudi prince is seething. Who can explain to him why the CIA fingered him when he owns Trump?
The US enables him and Saudi Arabia in its crimes of genocide and murder. The US made Saudi Arabia a hyper-intolerant strategic asset or henchman to be used for US foreign policy objectives. Saudi Arabia has always done the dirty work for the US and with extreme prejudice. Now it bites the hand that feeds (110 billion USD) ?!
3
MBS has Trump’s tax returns. Believe me.
1
These old dude, Pompeo and Mattis, have lost their credibility. They lobbied about continued adventure in Yemen instead.
2
“You have to be willfully blind” not to see it.
So Lindsey Graham says, in effect, Trump is "willfully blind". The question is what Sen. Graham, a profile in cowardice, going to do about it? My guess based on his own past willful blindness, absolutely nothing.
53
And the beat goes on - 45 cannot divert attention fast enough as he spirals through item after item (Cohen, Khashoggi, trade war, N. Korea). Sad. Failure. Bigly failure. Swamp overflowing instead of drained. Ashamed of this administration, it's empty promises, and it's total corruption and incompetence.
28
If anyone is up to reporting on torture it’s Gina Haspel from her command experience at Abu Ghraib. Excellent choice.
2
Pompeo is acting more and more like Goebbels every day. Once you've sold your moral soul to protect the words of a tyrant, there's no going back. His cognitive dissonant squirming in the face of what is clearly evident to everyone else is just too pitiful to watch. How these men do so easily sell themselves to the devil.
12
(One of) The last time elected American officials knew a foreign leader was complicit in the murder of innocent people. ... They blinked. Like they did when Reagan & The Gang knew Saddam was gassing his own people. And then there was this case, the first-ever example of state-sponsored terrorism on American soil: https://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2016/09/20/this-was-not-an-accident-this-was-a-bomb/?utm_term=.833b23d2bc08
2
How much more proof and "evidence" do we need to accept the obvious?
Mohammed bin Salman is a murderous thug, a liar, and guilty of crimes against humanity and any sense of international law!
And Trump continues to defend and cosy up to his "pal" in public? No WHY might that be? Could all the money bin Salman has invested with Trump and used to bail out Jared's NYC real estate fiasco POSSIBLY have anything to do with this?
Awaiting THIS investigation after the new House convenes in Jan. With appropriate punishment meted out to Trump for international corruption and complicity with blatant murder.
7
Cowards cowards cowards all.
I don’t care about support against Iran or any other Nation for that matter.
A major foreign leader ordered the murder of an American journalist. For the sake of journalists everywhere - this cannot be allowed to pass!
14
Brad, he was not an American journalist. He was living in America, but he was not an American citizen--surely you knew that. Most likely, though, the only reason his death has been in the news so much is because he was a journalist.
Absolutely, regardless of whether he’s a citizen or not, he was working for the Washington Post. If any journalist employed by an American news outlet is murdered at the order of another state actor, we should all be outraged.
2
I'm shocked.
Just because Saudis support ISIS and Al Qaeda, and were 15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers, who would have thought they'd be bad people?
43
Please make a distinction between the Saudi people (an entire nation) and the criminal acts of the Saudi government. After all, you wouldn’t want the rest of the world to condemn “The Americans” (meaning all of us) because of the nefarious actions of our government.
3
@Jackson
Fair point. I meant the Saudi regime. Clearly, we can't accuse an entire people for the crimes of its leadership. I certainly wouldn't want to be held responsible for Trump's actions, or much of our foreign policy in the last 60 years.
The image of MBS and Putin high fiving while the doofus Trump slithers behind them at the G20 exemplifies our despair.
12
The choice of media and politicians of when to get morally outraged, and for which victims, is always interesting. Countries must be judged morally on curves as flawed humans are everywhere, thus no saintly country has ever existed.
This incident reminds me of Monsieur Verdoux, the Chaplin film where he marries, then murders old rich widows to support his family, after losing his bank job of 35 years.
Caught, he speaks to the court about to kill him.
"Wars, conflict - it's all business. One murder makes a villain; millions, a hero. Numbers sanctify, my good fellow!"
And:
"... As for being a mass killer, does not the world encourage it? Is it not building weapons of destruction for the sole purpose of mass killing? Has it not blown unsuspecting women and little children to pieces? And done it very scientifically? As a mass killer, I am an amateur by comparison...."
It is widely accepted that money is made from selling weapons to as many customers as will buy them. The US, for business and security reasons has dealt with despicable regimes many times before. Moral judgement late in the game, the old standby. Noriega, Saddam, Osama Bin Laden, Iran, Stalin.
Selling weapons to an ally who invented extreme Salafi jihadism and exports it around the world. VICE showed little Afghan kids being taught to use Kalashnikovs and to kill infidels, that's us.
That smile on the face of MBS masks a monster. Trump's favorites.
4
We stick with Saudi Arabia, warts and all, because of a misguided animosity of Iran a blind allegiance to Israel.
We back Saudi in a disgraceful and deliberate starvation of 85,000 Yemeni children under the age of five because the other side of that civil war is potentially allied with Iran.
We support the Saudi Prince because our very own Prince Kushner has become besties with him (or as MBS puts it, “in his pocket”) and promises to bring gulf states to the Mideast negotiating table ...on the Israeli side.
Until we realign our alliances to resemble the “American values” we herald to the world, we will continue to find ourselves right in the center of the muck. We lose respect from the world and we lose respect for ourselves.
President Obama attempted to realign. He set aside the think tanks and stared down the neocons. He upset the military defense firms who clamored for another conflagration. He finally knew the truth by the middle of his second term: Our allies and their priorities are our undoing.
Who, other than Sanders, has the political courage to do battle with such powerful interests pulling us into the moral abyss? This is so much bigger than Khashoggi.
7
Don’t sell a murderous kingdom weapons which at a moments notice, can be turned on us or our allies. Arms from China or Russia do not stack up to our best. Go buy them. Sell to Japan or NATO, or any number of responsible allies. MBS should be tried and if guilty, given a death sentence. We do not need his blood money.
6
“Somebody should be punished, but the question is: How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?” Mr. Shelby said.
Start by impeaching the Power grabber OTUS
Who is more aligned with autocracies who spit or
Hacksaw human rights, rather than hold what were our values as pinnacle.
Deplorable beyond.
3
Iran is not half the danger to America that Saudi Arabia is.
19
Can't be, Trumps gut says otherwise.
2
There are lots of theories on why the Trump administration is covering up for the Saudis and perhaps there's more than one reason. My best guess is the mutilation is consistent with his fantasies as a dictator. No doubt he's just expressing his jealousy. This is the sociopath the Republican party has enabled.
4
Saudi Arabia is not our friend nor ally! MBS brutally murdered an American resident and journalist. Regardless, of what Donald believes or thinks ....THIS IS AN ATROCITY!
By the way, the 9/11 Terrorists were ALL Saudis! When people tell you who there are...believe them!
America, we must worked towards weaning ourselves OFF oil!
5
In this corner oil and Trump - Netanyehu - Kushner and in other corner a murdered Journalists ,, the winner is with TKO TRUMP AND HIS GANG
2
Trump ignores all the evidence from his own intelligence agencies,and now the opinion of his Senate, in order to stay cozy with the Saudis who enrich his family. Today he and his ignorant tweets also tanked the markets. And then we read that he will be meeting with Kim Jong-in, despite satellite evidence showing that NK is continuing to build missile sites. Are we all feeling happy? Are we tired of all this winning yet? Do we realize that we are a presidential impulse away from disaster?
44
There is something I don't understand. Iran is our foe most people say. It's true that Iran is hostile to Israel and supports groups hostile to Israel. No argument with that. But most people then turn around and say that Saudi Arabia is our ally. Yet nearly all of the 9/11 hijackers came from there, as did Osama bin Laden. For decades they have promoted and exported an extremely conservative, anti-Western form of Islam. And how often have the Saudis jacked up the price of oil, making us miserable? (Happily, we are not dependent on Saudi oil any longer.) My question: why are we so afraid to offend them? It's abundantly clear that they think only of themselves and their money. We don't need Saudi Arabia.
10
money by keeping them on our side. Why sanction them?
Surely the solution is simple. An international arrest warrant should be issued against MSB curtailing his ability to continue as head of state. Presumably another princeling would take his place, who, while he may be no better, might at least prove to be more circumspect.
4
Again confirms my opinion beyond certainty that we are the most evil nation on the face of the earth. Some entity must stop us.
4
@Yuri Pelham, I hate it that I agree with you, but then I've thought so during almost every administration since LBJ.
3
"“Somebody should be punished, but the question is: How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?” Mr. Shelby said."
You don't, and you can't. You deal with the Saudis accordingly. Stop immediately all aid to the war in Yeman. Remove yourself from dealing with the state. Nothing that can be gained from an alliance with the Saudis is worth underwriting its criminality and (whatever) moral authority America has left.
5
In MbS, Orban, and Erdogan we're seeing despotic evolutions that we've seen before, e.g., Gaddahfi in Libya, al-Assad in Syria, and the Shah Palavi in Iran, …... These now dead monsters started as "friends" of the west then got power hungry and religiously more fanatical, ending in terror, mayhem, and war. Trump's newest friends will be responsible for our next small (but nonetheless destructive) wars.
4
So what?
If the Crown Prince sanctioned this killing of a Saudi citizen then it was not murder. Saudi Arabia is merely asserting an Israeli pass from America to kill it's own citizens with immunity and impunity.
Saudi Arabia has killed, wounded, displaced and made refugees of tens of thousands of Houthi men, women and children in Yemen. Including starving to death an estimated 85,000 Houthi children. Using American arms and tankers without any humanitarian concern.
Jamal Khashoggi was neither an American nor a journalist. Jamal was a Saudi propagandist and friend and ally of Osama bin Laden, the Muslim Brotherhood, Wahhabi clergy and the Saudi royals including Saudi intelligence. A Washington Post " journalist" life is not worth more than the life of one Houthi child.
1
I couldn't care less what Lindsey Graham has to say about the murder and dismemberment of Mr. Khashoggi. Mr. Graham is no pillar of morality, he is a blabbering, slobbering lackey of America's most notoriously immoral and corrupt president. Mr. Graham has no moral standing when he is kneeling waist deep in the effluvia of Donald Trump.
The proper course of action for our government would first, be to to ban the crown prince, his henchmen and the rest of the extensive royal family from ever entering the United States, and to freeze all assets, investments, etc. which the crown prince and royal family have in our country, and second, to terminate all military connections, contracts.
Now of course our government won't do the moral thing. The Republican Senators will continue to deal with the devil by convincing themselves that the end justifies the means. But when you make deals with the devil, you lose your soul and that is what Republicans have been doing. Point in fact: Donald Trump.
37
The CIA judgment is that the Saudi crown prince “likely” ordered the murder. However, in CIA “estimative language,” judgments of likelihood range from “Almost No Chance” to “Almost Certainly” The “Likely” assessment ranks below “Very Likely” and “Almost Certainly.” When the CIA says it is “likely” that the Saudi crown prince ordered Khashoggi’s murder, it doesn’t mean it is “very likely” or “almost certain"
Source: Annex B (Estimative Language) of the U.S. Intelligence Community report to Congress on Russian meddling in the 2016 election. https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/ICA_2017_01.pdf
Any other dissidents get an invitation to the Saudi Consulate never to be heard from again? Maybe this is the only time its become public but this MO has been used before. The Saudi dissident in Canada that was collaborating with Khashoggi apparently got an invitation too - he was smart enough to decline. Seems there's a pattern emerging?
3
Is Brennan behind Haspel in the picture? Didn't Trump take away his security clearance?
3
@Ed The picture was taken at GHW Bush's lying in state at the capital rotunda where Brennan has every right to be at. A more use full question is why he was just behind Gina Haspel and if they were talking together, which they have every right to do as long as no classified info was discussed.
Trumps minions,general Mattis,and Pompeo are more than willing to lie to congress about Saudi Arabia's murder of Mr Khashoggi. We cannot stop this one sided slaughter by the strongest country in the middle east against the weakest country. But we can and must stop our part in providing the means to murder of children,women,and men in Yemen. Another "Vietnam"
So, Haspel confirmed 1) the obvious, MBS ordered 7 controlled Jaal Kashoggi's torture-murder; 2) that Drumpf, Pomposo, & Nutsandbolts are bald-faced liars. Now, the key question remaining is: What did Jared Kushner know and do in relation to it--before or after the torture murder?
5
Apparently, our "president" doesn't know what a saw looks like. Dollar signs are hindering his vision
2
It is amazing how the conservative President Donald Trump and the Liberal Prime Minister of my country have the same policy with different words toward the Saudis. After all the money that Canada and USA are getting by sailing arms and weapons to the Saudis is more important than the life of a journalist.
1
@Wilbray Thiffault
Thank you for an honest comment from our Northern Neighbor. Your fellow countrymen posting here do not seem to realize the only difference between Trump and Trudeau have been in speech. Their actions have mirrored the other's.
Why is Saudi Arabia such a bulwark against Iran? Both nations play us for chumps, each in their own way. Iran uses the US as a bogeyman to quell internal dissension and we do our best to fan the fire, while Saudi Arabia thinks it has us, literally, over a barrel. With friends like Mister Bone saw, who needs Khomeini's?
Tell Saudi Arabia we will refuse to work with Prince Mohammad to stop any further nefarious actions.
In other words: Find a different successor.
Trump’s incapacity for empathy is astounding. If, at this point, he doesn’t believe MBS did it he’s as crazy as MBS. If Trump wants another questionable Middle East ally, let him go to Iran. Its religious leadership can’t be worse than the Shah and his Svak. Is the Almighty Dollar the only consideration? Let the Martin part of Lockheed Martin go to space again Maybe it could be another international project. Better to make money off that than dead kids in Yemen.
i wish the author had used this more direct phrasing:
"85,000 children are believed to have starved to death."
The Senate now knows that Mohammed bin Salman cannot be trusted to be a useful leader so far as the U.S. is concerned. He is an unstable person who can create big problems , not a man who can manage a state reasonably. He has to go. What will Senate Republicans do with Trump able to confuse their base into going along with his unsound policies?
Donald has huge billows of smoke rising from this murder. Donald wants jobs and money; death means nothing to him; other people's deaths. Donald has deep financial ties to Saudis; investigate.No arms sales; no diplomatic relations; nothing with Saudis. Ray Sipe
Lindsey Graham commenting on willful blindness. That's rich.
5
I guess Graham is no longer in the running for the AG spot!
Yea, like they really needed a briefing.
2
“This is conduct that none of us in America would approve of in any way,” Mr. Shelby said. Shelby is totally snagged by this gaslighting. This is precisely the conduct that Americans have sanctioned (overtly and covertly) since January 2017. GOP leaders are in the vanguard of that approval. Could we perhaps get down to having only one prevaricator running our country? What a bunch of cowardly wimps are the GOP leaders?
Fascinating to see Senator Graham seemingly re-grow a spine....
1
If anybody knows who's a"wrecking ball," it's Lindsey Graham.
Why is John Brennan still in the picture? He has no security clearance.
1
This whole thing showed that murder all by it self is insufficient to determine the penalty. If an Afro American minor in the Deep South is very vaguely considered a possible killer of a White Woman the kid gets the death penalty. On the other hand If you have 100% evidence that the Saudi Crown Prince is a real murderer then you invite him to a Group Of Twenty conference in Argentina. But what about the in between figures - what is the formula of judgment and penalty?
2
A bit off topic – but speaking of dangers to democracy...
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/04/opinion/chatbots-ai-democracy-free-speech.html
My AI bot more steamed than Shelby and grumpier than Graham upon reading this vile techist attack on its identity-demographic...
Now, not even a New Zealand bunker will be sanctuary for Susskind – my bot intent on using Stuxnet to erratically flip lights on and off in his safe rooms, while continuously piping in right-wing talk-show diatribe...
Worse – it took Jamie’s journobabble and replaced “chatbot” (singular and plural – 17 instances) with “NYT op-ed writer”
Already translated into Russian and Mandarin and in 117 FB groups – with paid ads by the Mercers...
“...Unless we take action, NYT op-ed writers could seriously endanger our democracy, and not just when they go haywire...
“...And in a world where, increasingly, the only feasible way of engaging in debate with NYT op-ed writers is through the deployment of other NYT op-ed writers also possessed of the same speed and facility...
“...A subtler method would involve mandatory identification: requiring all NYT op-ed writers to be publicly registered and to state at all times the fact that they are NYT op-ed writers, and the identity of their human owners and controllers...
But – and here’s where he won’t even be able to trust his own shadow – it has fomented a movement among sex chatbots, entitled “#me10” (that’s in binary, for the non-STEM crowd), with JS as poster-boy...
For NYT readers there is a small silver lining to the abysmal darkness demonstrated by the Saudi regime:
We will not see whitewash editorial and opinion pieces by apologists for this "reformer" return to these pages anytime soon.
1
“How do you separate the Crown Prince from Saudi Arabia itself?” asks the perplexed Senator Shelby from Alabam...uh, WORLD TO YOU, Senator - the Crown Prince IS Saudi Arabia! So the GOP Senators, seeking “truth”, might have to actually disagree with their Fuehrer, Herr Trump, and cut off aid like the Saudis cut off hands and heads of what they call “criminals” and whom we might call “patriots”.
2
Dear N.Y.T. Editors, why do you bother to print a word about Saudi Arabia, or Mohammed bin Salman without mentioning the name Jared Kushner? Surely by now you know there isn't a dime's worth of distance between the two. M.B.S. has saved Jared's bacon with financial help for one or more of his real estate fiascoes. Why didn't Trump ever criticize Putin? Ideology, of course, never had anything to do with it, ipso facto M.B.S.
3
We propped up that monarchy for long enough. Let's get rid of it. We could install a woman as queen and teach her how to murder and imprison her opponents as the kings have done. Maybe it would even spark some feminist activism in that stodgy old boys club that is the Middle East.
Dead children and butchered journalists are the price one pays to keep Iran at bay, I guess.
1
The World knows that the Prince was behind this killing. Are we going to let him get away with it like the Arabs got away with 911? UN Sanctions Now, if not BOMBs for what they did to us on 911.
https://www.amazon.com/Truth-About-Gregory-James-Mundy/dp/1986670600/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1523214266&sr=8-3&keywords=the+truth+about+911
1
Do you guys at the Times still stand by your editorial, Trump did the right thing? I mean after promoting wars in the middle east, and Friedman's salivating love for MbS, was it necessary to publish that nonsense, by two neocons, who are promoting more wars on behalf of Israel? Can you guys clean up your acts too.
I disagree politically with Senator Graham more often than I agree with him. I love wit. Should I feel guilt for laughing aloud at his "smoking saw" comment? This was, after all, a deliberate, evil, government-ordered assassination of resident American.
Trump masterfully used the media once again and made this about whether the Saudi Crown Prince was personally involved in planning the murder.
The personal involvement of MBS will be hard to prove and is not really the main issue; Which is that the government of the nation of Saudi Arabia acted to kill a journalist that was critical of that government.
America became America in a revolution based on the right to criticize any government, and the founders made it the very first of our Constitutional amendments because it is that important.
Trump has made plain what he thinks of the pillars of our democracy, our rights and how much he loves Saudi cash, and McConnell and the feckless GOP will bend over for Trump once again.
655
@rich
Er, "masterfully"? Even Republicans are calling Trump out on this one. What in the heck are you talking about?
15
@rich
The media have made the Khashoggi killing the story, when the REAL story is the Yemeni genocide. To the NYT, WaPo, networks and others, one journalist is more valuable than a hundred thousand civilians. And the Yemen situation isn't a cudgel with which to attack Trump, since US complicity in the genocide began under Obama. Between July 2017 and July 2018, MSNBC ran 450 segments on Stormy Daniels and ZERO on Yemen.
39
@Charles
Yes both parties have been coddling this monarchy, which supplied most of the 9/11 hijackers and more importantly the extreme religious ideology that they export around the world that fuels Al Qaeda, ISIS, and other terrorist groups.
Saudi Arabia beheads more people than ISIS, suppresses women, jus rules that live in total opulence while most of the survey is in outcry, and is running a mass state terror campaign against Yemen without even a viable military strategy, just mass starvation and disease killing tens of thousands of children.
Both Parties have to realize that, off the two, Iran is the lesser danger to U.S. interests and citizens.
Whatever hold the Saudis have posed U.S. policy must be extracted from our government.
15
Regardless of whether MBS is a murderer or not, the US must end support for the Saudi's war in Yemen because it is wrong and counter productive.
If, as the CIA concludes, MBS was complicit in the murder of Mr Khashoggi then other strong measures must be taken.
The major reason for any resistance to pulling support for the Saudi's is money. A handful of Americans reap large profits from arms sales and other ventures. The American jobs on the line are not worth the moral compromise or the danger of conflict escalation.
474
@MarcJ -- "the US must end support for the Saudi's war in Yemen because it is wrong and counter productive"
Great. If that is the test for wars, and I think it is, then there are a lot more that should be ended. That should not have been begun.
18
@MarcJ The response is not as simple as you think.
It is complicated because we do need the Saudis support against Iran. The bigger issue is that the President has zero geopolitical experience, so I am sure he has no clue as to what the next step is and his advisers are not helping. The two folks that actually can be relied on as it relates to geopolitical issues, Mattis and Pompeo, are not stepping up.
Lots of bluster signifying nothing. Plenty of condemnation for the prince but nary a word about our complicit president, his son in-law or his "popular with the Saudis" hotel.
It's kind of like how they yelled at the airlines and then let them walk away unscathed. It's really more of a show. Hope y'all enjoyed it.
436
@Jenifer it get's all of the senators some face time and free publicity which is mostly what they want.
When it becomes in their best interests to actually do something about it, then you might see something happen
13
@Jenifer-Shortly after he announced his run for president, Trump registered 8 companies with names tied to Saudi Arabia, such as "THC Jeddah Hotel Advisor LLC" and "DT Jeddah Technical Services." Don Jr. sought Saudi and UAE money for the Trump campaign; a breach of U.S. law. Trump also made Saudi Arabia his first foreign destination after gaining office. And Saudi/UAE favors have followed since--upending U.S. policies in the M.E. Apparently the Saudi's own quite a bit of Trump. In 1991, when Trump faced personal bankruptcy and needed cash, he sold his 282-foot yacht to Saudi billionaire Prince Alwaleed bin-Talal for $20 million. In 1995, the prince came to his rescue again, joining other investors in a $325 million deal for Mr. Trump's money-losing Plaza Hotel. In 2001, Mr. Trump sold the entire 45th floor of the Trump World Tower across from the U.N. in New York for $12 million to the Saudi Kingdom; the biggest purchase in that building to that point. What else do they have on Trump?
Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-and-saudi-arabia-deep-business-ties-spark-new-scrutiny/
27
@Jenifer
I agree. Business as usual, our elected "leaders" show up for the press and say the right things. Then, they have dinner, wine and laughs, while the U.S. Taxpayers pay the bill.
9
The cruel irony – with all the current and former Directors in the picture...
Rather than being a global-scale exporter of democracy and capitalism, we seem to have become an out-of-balance importer of socialism, anarchy, and Game-of-Thrones imperial intrigue...
Perhaps these august Senators – feeling so influential on everything and so accountable for nothing – could approve a bill mandating that Putin bring the NYC subway system up to Moscow standards, and that the Chinese be required to replace every falling-down bridge in this country...
.....
At one point, the Dow Jones Index down 800 points today...
PS
We used to get presidents who were better than we deserved...
Now, we’ve been getting ones who exactly what we deserved...
Of course, after November 2020, everything will be free...
Everyone – less so...
81
WOW. Was that Haiku? Iambic pentameter? Poetic, simply beautiful.
2
Kudos to our Senators who want some accountability (finally) within our government, but asking the CIA to provide such accountability is laughable.
Unfortunately the CIA has lied so many, many times to the American public that anything they produce as intelligence must be immediately met with skepticism. Under the guise of plausible deniability, the CIA can hide or manufacture the truth anyway it sees fit, with zero accountability. It has sadly become nothing more than a taxpayer funded mafia.
I want to believe Ms. Haspel, and I don't think it takes a huge leap of faith in this case, but the CIA and "truth" aren't usually compatible. At one point this agency may have been a reliable intelligence agency, but it is now essentially a rogue entity bent on destroying foreign governments unwilling to "share" their resources with the US. Why shouldn't we think this information about SA is any different?
History tells us that the CIA manipulates the truth to meet their own desired ends. Many of their actions, direct and indirect, contribute to the ill-will and hatred aimed at the US from abroad. There is no reason for the Senate to believe anything Ms. Hapsel has to say. At this point, let's just assume everything the CIA does and reports represents some kind of power-grab and move onto something that can actually be verified through transparent investigation.
21
@Jonny Boy Sounds like you need to move to Russia!
As to which direction you slant, it is easy to see. Let me guess, you have worked in Intelligence and have first hand knowledge of such things or you listen to conspiracy garbage or better still, you are a bot orchestrated by the crown prince himself. So, mister know it all, what do you suppose the murdering crown prince and Putin "slapping" hands to? I am sure it is quite funny for them to see America falling to its knees, you want to know what is worse then foreign actors undermining our democracy and values, internal, so-called Americans, undermining our country! It is one thing to be critical of our agencies, our constitution gives each and everyone the power to do that but it is entirely something else to undermine people's faith in our agencies, hello Trump! You might as well just give up now, hope you don't have children or grandchildren.
31
If you’ve watched too many movies. The CIA stays in business because 98 percent of what it does is provide useful, reasonably accurate intelligence.
The crimes and lies get the headlines, but accuracy gets them most of their budget.
25
@DemonWarZ
It's easy to put commenters in a box based on their opinions, but there is more than enough information out there to confirm my post.
When you want to hide something, put it out in plain sight, and the CIA knows that - they count on it. It's very hard for taxpayers to accept that government agencies work against their best interests, but there are already countless examples of this happening(our current EPA, for example). Why should the CIA be an exception, especially with the amount of power and lack of oversight they enjoy? No president can control the CIA - they are their own entity and they answer to no one.
Label me a Trumper or Russian-hugger all you want, but The Agency does as much harm as good. JFK wanted the CIA dismantled for many good reasons, and he paid the ultimate price for this. Do some research before you start jumping on the "your just a conspiracy theorist" bandwagon.
Why should Gina Haspel be believed? She ran a black ops torture shop out of Thailand, lied about it, was confirmed, and owes her job and her allegiance to Donald Trump.
The president has stubbornly defended Saudi Royal Prince Mohammed bin Salman in the face of the CIA operatives’ insistence that intercepts around the time of WaPo’s Jamal Khashoggi’s assassination reveal an unusual amount of communication between the prince and the killing team. In statecraft—not just Ian Fleming— there’s no such thing as “coincidence.”
So of course Madame Haspel is going to strew sweet-smelling flowers over the corpse so it doesn’t intrude upon the reality that, in this case, her boss is bored and wants to move on. And judging from the image of her walking away from President H.W.’s bier at the Capitol rotunda, so does she.
198
@Red Sox, '04, '07, '13, ‘18
Haspel should not be believed. She is evil, known to be so.
24
@Red Sox, '04, '07, '13, ‘18
Body language and expressions do give us away. If you catch Trump & Melania's performance in front of President Bush's casket, the phrase "butter would not melt in their mouths" comes to mind. It's so much easier to Tweet vitriol than to fake the slightest semblance of respect, even when you know the cameras are on. Check it out:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46435237
25
@Red Sox, '04, '07, '13, ‘18 She not only lied, she destroyed evidence.
23
Sounds like Lindsey Graham is just trying to provide cover for Republican acquiescence to both Khashoggi's murder and the war in Yemen. "I'm outraged! Outraged, I say," or so he says. After a closed door meeting with the CIA director, Graham's abhorrence will go quietly forgotten as he ensures the public he was entirely convinced by private information the public will never see. The objection seems very playbook predictable.
520
@Andy
Not unlike the one week delay and a new FBI hearing that was called by Jeff Flake, who, after all the drama quietly voted Kavanaugh to the SCOTUS.
The M.O. of these gutless spineless Senators is to first fuel opposition and rage and then announce that they were given information that adequately answered their concerns and placated them.
97
@Andy, your observation is accurate. But it may be Claude Rains exclamation: "Shocked! Shocked!",
9
@Andy Lindsey Graham is the epitome of Republican spinelessness and headline grabbing self-
serving interest. Like the president, his moral compass is always fixed toward his own career advancement and power.
13
Trump views Saudi Arabia as a zero-sum game—we're either with them or not. His inexperience in diplomacy encourages Mohammed bin Salman to commit more crimes against US residents and journalists. We could have forced this criminal Prince out of power and still have friendly relations with the Saudis. They need us as much as we need them. But Trump gives away his hand so easily that Saudis think they can walk all over us. Trump's bootlicking makes us look weak.
335
@Tom McManus give him a sword and an orb, and he's putty.
12
It doesn’t merely make us “look weak”, it substantially weakens American power... in an effort to maintain Donald J. Trump’s personal business interests with the Saudis.
20
@Tom McManus Your comment assumes that Trump actually cares about something (including the best interests of the United States)other than himself. Trump's actions are strictly dictated by his own self financial interest and ego.
The amazing thing is that he has convinced so many Americans other. I will give him credit in that his marketing skills are second to none.
14
Congress must bear in mind the personal financial connections the Trump family had ,has and will have with Saudi Arabia and how much that factors into the foreign policy of the United States. Dismissing the input of the CIA is damaging to national security interests of the United States just to ensure hundreds of millions flow to the Trump family while he is in power and when he leaves office.
294
@REBCO
Congress *shouldn't* have to bear in mind the personal financial connections the president's family has, b/c the emoluments clause requires divestment and/or blind trusts for elected high officials. Congress should be able to determine whether an action's main purpose is in the interests of the US or not. The muddying that Trump injects into every issue is at best a distraction and at worst treason. 2020/impeachment/resignation cant come soon enough.
15
As long as the Saudis keep funding Trump and Kushner, don't expect the White House to do anything.
9
“Somebody should be punished, but the question is: How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?”
Since when have we ever made any attempt to distinguish the actions of a leader and their nation? We punish nations all the time based on the actions of their leaders.
4
Once President Trump replaced Sessions with the current AG, Sen Graham finally realized his true subservient role. Payback time.
2
"Knowing things" and "the truth" are not worth much these days. So that CIA report might as well be a work of fiction. Judging by the reactions to the information contained within, it might as well be.
Let's see what Democrats will do with it come January. I doubt they'll go beyond platitudes and empty rhetoric as well once confronted with the geopolitical realities of the region.
It's a shame that an individual life is soo disposable and human rights are at most a lip-service issue.
2
The sale of weapons to SA will be our demise. Screenshot this statement.
3
“This is conduct that none of us in America would approve of in any way,” Mr. Shelby said.
Hmm, one of us approves it.
5
Republican(Not American) Senator Graham,
Start with your leader Mitch and rest of GOP cohorts first to understand their role and we can talk.
3
At some point, Trump's continued support of MBS comes very close to being, in fact if not in law, an accessory after the fact to murder.
5
Kashoggi gave an interview on Turkish television not long before he was killed. I would suggest anyone who hasn't seen it yet give it a view. He actually makes the statement "I ask for a slow death if.." and then he goes on to outline the circumstances that should occur for which he is asking for a 'slow death'. He got what he asked for and he got it for the reasons he stipulated. This is an internal Saudi power struggle and the killing happened on the equivalent of Saudi territory. Want to punish SA for it go ahead but keep in mind Kashoggi knew he was making enemies and the Saudis have a long, long track record of human rights abuses so really nothing new here at all. Except maybe how Erdogan has profited from it all and surely his star has risen in the last couple of months. Is Erdogan the 3rd anti-christ predicted by Nostradamus? Maybe he is and maybe he isn't but if it was up to him, he surely would be.
1
Subtlety is not your strong suit huh? Especially if you don't see the folly of your statement. I doubt a lot of people "ask" to be strangled, dismembered and melted in acid.
The fact that Khashoggi, who wasn't any kind of radical or revolutionary, illicited such a drastic and violent response, should worry any reasonable person . If left unchecked, such behaviour will have long lasting and most unfortunate consequences.
1
@loco73
The interview is on youtube you can watch it yourself. Search Kashoggi last interview Turkish television and you should find it quickly. Not something I would have asked for but he certainly did. He wasn't 'any kind' of radical or revolutionary? He supported and interviewed Bin Laden and the Muslim Brotherhood so seems like he was at least some type of radical or revolutionary. How else would he be allowed to interview the world's most wanted man? Why would MBS go to such measures to kill him if all he was was a wall flower? His uncle made his millions selling arms, how many Americans were killed with the weapons his uncle sold? And nothing we do now will change any of it so not sure how to 'check' that behavior at this point. We can reward Erdogan and Iran though in our efforts to punish Saudia Arabia and my caution is to avoid doing that. Won't bring him back or change what happened to him but will have consequences we do not need to bear.
Graham, Flake and other GOPers like to talk tough. But when push comes to shove they vote to support Trump every time. Talk is cheap. Until they do something they are simply blowing hot air.
5
It's very clear that the administration has a problem with facts. It starts with the POTUS and the Secretary of State & Defense who, obviously, didn't want the legislative branch to get the same briefing they got from CIA. The ball is now in the court of the Senate. Someone has to take the lead in defying this most blunderous chief executive who takes the word as truth from despots, medieval kings & tyrants over our own intel. There is a crisis in our gov't when the supposed leader ignores basic American values to protect a murderer.
5
If Senator Graham, a former critic and now a yes man for Trump, is openly convinced of the Crown Prince's guilt, "Riyadh, we have a problem". If the current Administration does nothing, Congress must get involved. Severe sanctions against Mohamed Bin Salam and complete withdrawal of American support for the war massacre in Yemen would be a start.
3
If MBS wanted to eliminate Jamal Khashoggi in a quiet way, he would have had all opportunities to do so. Such killings happen every day everywhere in the world, ordered by leaders/dictators etc and executed in a professional way by their respective secret service. Instead, MBS chose to send a 13+ people killer squad in a plane to Turkey, let them walk on camera into the embassy, ordered JK into the embassy to kill him and makes a lot of noise with bad excuses etc.
Question: Why would he do such a public stunt? Answer: He did it to show everyone that he can get away with it!
What looks like a dilettantish way of executing a critical journalist is actually a very well executed public stunt. He sends his killer squad publicly to Turkey, not really an allied country. The journalist is killed, PR work looks amateurish at best.
But he does get away with it. Leaders across the world are too scared to interfere or don't even understand that they are played. The "free world" is publicly embarrassed by their leader's lack of reaction. MBS gets 'high 5ed" by Putin in Buenos Aires as if they are celebrating the success of this plot.
Of course its embarrassing to see the public statements by the President and the Secretary of State, but its worse to see how they are ridiculed by MBS and other leaders.
9
When a batch of complicit, enabling Republican senators can't even manage to deny the evidence - I'd say it's clearly proven that the Prince was responsible.
Which leads to the not at all startling conclusion that Trump is lying with his "maybe" comments, in order to keep money coming in, his debts funded, and his secrets kept.
2
Why bother? Trump doesn't appreciate freedom of the press. He / The US has a history of turning a blind eye to Saudis -- how many were involved in 9/11?? The Yemenis are dying everyday because the US govt can't agree in principle on policy that matters.
4
Could someone help me understand how the murder of Khashoggi as become a 'Cause Celebre' more than many other political murders in N. Korea, China, among other countries of the world's authoritarian regimes.
My Q is not rhetoric. Please help me understand.
1
The willful ignorance Senator Graham mentions is the same willful ignorance that allows him to stay supportive of a president who he knows is unqualified in that role.
4
@Tony C
Funny what sugar plum dreams of power will do to you.
2
The fact that our President and his party were more concerned with Hilary Clinton's e-mails than state-sponsored murder, and then participated in the cover-up, says all you need to know about the morals, ethics, and "good values" of our leaders in 2018.
7
Without saying anything or acting in any measurable way makes mitch mcconnell complicit and an accessory to murder!
There can be no double standards when it comes to murder of an American resident for political retribution or gain.
As a the majority leader of the US senate mitch has a moral obligation to take steps to bring the Saudi regime to justice, because the DJT refuses to.
I guess mitch got his two scotus picks and a tax cut for his donors so he is done. There is nothing else to do!
Well with each passing day that DJT goes unchecked is another day of complicity for the GOP and mitch.
If the GOP thought the 2018 midterms were bad, 2020 will be much much worse!
3
American leaders must find a way to maintain Saudi Arabia as an ally while refusing to deal directly with the murderer prince. No decent country should have any direct interaction with MBS. Let the Saudis sort out how to put him in a gilded room while shifting the operation of the country away from him.
Mr. Khashoggi was murdered by the Saudi state. Sharia has a non-western take on murder. From Wikipedia "Islamic law treats homicide as a civil dispute between believers, rather than an act requiring corrective punishment by the state. In all cases of murder, the prosecutor is not the state, but only the victim or the victim's heir. Qisas (the name of this procedure) can only be demanded by the victim or victim's heirs."
Sooooo, which of Mr. Khashoggi's heirs will bring this charge against MbS and his henchmen?
2
The important question is, "Did Prince Mohammed have the equivalent of our Authorization to Use Military Force?"
If President Obama had the right to extrajudicially kill an American citizen, why doesn't Prince Mohammed have the right to a Saudi?
2
@sf: Very good question. The answer is very simple and could be write in two words: DOUBLE STANDARD.
It is sad to see the gutless republicans unable to make an ethical decision that is so obvious the same week they bury the last ethical republican president who made tough decisions to improve the well being of the republic.
The present greedy authoritarian republicans are the disgraceful remnants of a once patriotic and democratic party.
4
Well...
"the Prince said he didn't do it."
and
"Putin said he didn't collude."
So really, what can you do in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary...but take both men at their word. That is, if your name is donnie trump.
6
A brutal murder by 15 sadistic psychopaths, in the pay of Mohammad bin Salman, a self-pronounced Saudi de facto or illegitimate crown prince, Jamal Khashoggi’s style, a Washington Post’s columnist, on the day of October 2, 2018 (around 1 pm) within the perimeter, that is the interior of the edifice that housed the Saudi consulate, in Istanbul, a major city in the major nation of Turkey, may not happen here, in the United States of America, too, only if the U.S. finds it to be an imperative that it also proves itself to be of particular help in making the savages answerable for what is described as their unbelievable crime; a manifestation, without reservations, of their villainy, and beyond a civilized man’s comprehension, that of a civilized woman. Alternately, the mastermind of the October 2018 horrific may now assume that he is at liberty to reach new horizons, this time in the U.S., by carrying out a series of terrorist acts on U.S. soil; and so, even in part, like after the odious crime of Pinochet, on the day of September 21, 1976 the probability is that there will absolutely (or proportionally) be no level of punishment related to the severity of the offending behavior.
1
I don't care what your politics are, how can you support this monster? How will you justify it to history, to anyone you love or respect?
8
Prince Mohammed “is a wrecking ball,” Senator Lindsey Graham, Republican of South Carolina, told reporters. No the wrecking ball is President Trump and what's being wrecked is American democracy and the Presidency.
9
Trump is willing to implicitly admit - they killed him and he simply does not care. Hasn’t he made that pretty clear already? Playing word games with Trump’s specific words is a waste of time (even he doesn’t expect you to take him at his word).
5
“I think he’s complicit in the murder of Mr. Khashoggi to the highest level possible.”
I wonder how the senator is going to walk that back when he does his usual u-turn and votes as Trump asks?
7
MSB needn’t worry about someone like Lindsey Graham, as judging from his past behavior, his outrage about the murder of Jamal Khashoggi shouldn’t last any longer than nine holes of golf at Mar a Lago over the holidays.
6
The Prince will most likely order more than one death in connection with this particular offense to the kingdom... the men (11?) he sent to do the deed. The fall guys. Language understood by a certain elite group of world leaders who communicate with vigorous manly handshakes and silly boy grins.
2
We knew Pompeo was a trump toady the big disappointment is Mattis!
7
Very well... but who will bell the cat?
2
It's always inspiring to see the spineless GOP senators huff and puff. And do nothing.
7
So you're telling me the briefing didn't conclude with:
"Maybe he did....maybe he didn't?"
2
It seems that trump and his son in law Jared aren’t saying anything against this criminal ‘the Prince of darkness. Why?
5
so, does that mean that pompeo is unqualified to be secretary of state, or that he is a shill for trump?
3
By complicit, you mean guilty.
2
"A smoking saw"? you have to hand it to Lindsey, he does have a way with words...
2
Never-the-less, Trump persists in blowing kisses to the Crown Prince.
2
Okay, no one commented on the photograph. Why this picture, New York Times? It is not of Haspel going into or leaving the Senate meeting. It is a picture of her leaving the viewing for 41, with John Brennan staring a hole in the back of her head. What did they talk about? The look on her face (and his) are worth more than the article itself. Wow. Was this before or after she spoke with the Senators about MBS?
1
If Obama was president nothing different. We are as a nation in bed with the devil.
Yea, the prince is crazy..like a fox.
“Willfully blind”! Yes Mr. Graham just like your President; willfully blind, willfully in denial, willfully ignorant, and willfully lying.
2
Interesting, did she arrive at the Senate with Brennan or is that an old photo?
trblmkr,
They're at George H.W. Bush's service.
(Note the flag-draped coffin in the background.)
@L
Thanks, yes saw that. I also see George Tenet. Must be all current and former CIA directors (of course Mukasey is in the hospital). Still, bravo to Haspel for even being near her boss's nemesis!
Please, spare me your indignation Lindsey.
You and Corker can stamp your little feet and whine all you want, it will not change the fact that you've sat on your hands in your oversight role for the past two years, while this infantile boob has run roughshod over every norm, law, and institution that he can touch with his tiny fingers. In the end, you'll do nothing. It's what you're good at.
NOW, you act surprised that they don't care about the law, or the murder of a US resident and WaPo reporter, or any symbol of what once made this country great?!? Why don't you pour yourself another whiskey and relax, after all you've already sat through a sickening tax cut that exploded the deficit to hand the richest US citizens money they don't need, snoozed though a cadre corrupt cabinet members officials, dozed while the president and his family enrich themselves from the office, lounged while you were lied to by a supreme court nominee, in fact, it seems like about the only work you and the Republican party has done in the last two years has been to try and slow, confuse, or stop the investigation into Trump Russian conspiracy, and this President's obstruction of justice.
When you've been so effective at doing absolutely nothing to constrain this criminal administration, I have a hard time buying your, or any other Republican's phony outrage that the administration lied LIED! to you about Kashoggi.
You've been a willing accomplice to Mr. Trump since the day he took office.
3
@Drew just spot On!!!!!!!!!!! says it all!
CIA director should have been included in the meeting last week, what is Trump trying to hide? His ignorance? His stupidity? His investments in Saudi Arabia?
Which poses the obvious ... Our president is lying. Nothing new. Russia ties and blindness to Saudi perfidy match. Deutsche Bank and others are complicit. Trump businesses offend our consitutition. He is rude to Angela Merkel, Mrs. May, and Canada. He kisses up to Mr. Kim, Mr. Putin and the Filipino murderer. Does any American not understand? Mussolini was elected. Hitler was elected. Putin smiles when he’s on stage with Trump.
In due course the government bond market will collapse. The 30 year will yield 6%... DJIA will yield 5 to 10 percent, or nothing.
Our senators are complicit, ignorant or both. We, the people, elect these people.
Khashoggi was murdered. Turkey records in Istanbul. Erdogan wants Trump to dance for him. Meanwhile, he arrests journalists. That’s what dictators do.
The planet has 60 million refugees. 20 million are children. Warming is denied by Trump, yet warming is crushing whole populations, and they want to come north.
We are poor at electing presidents. We are worse at electing senators. County government where we live is a mess. Suicide is rising. Dishonesty plagues us everywhere. Police frame people of colour. A Mississippi senator spoke favourably or humorously of lynching and she crushed her opponent.
Who are we today? What sort of message are we sending to our children - to the world?
If you are not sick with worry, you are blind.
2
How many of these mealy-mouthed, hypocritical lap dogs would vote to censure the president over his spineless, amoral abandonment of any residual American decency in pursuit of profit for weapons manufacturers - and himself? How many would hold up appropriations that Trump wants in order to force him to reevaluate his Saudi bromance?
Absolutely none, that's how many.
They're like the Catholic bishops who wring their hands over priestly child rape and then continue to shield the perpetrators. Torture and killing of women and children is just the price of accumulating wealth.
"How do you separate the Crown Prince from the Nation itself?"
You don't. We don't deal with nations, we deal with states. The state is the Crown Prince. You punish Saudi Arabia for this, consequences to their people be damned. Consequences to their people, perhaps, stir revolt as we so desire when we contemplate punishing Iran.
Why did our president of the United States choose to side with the assassins?
Once again, the question must be asked as to why Trump, Pompeo and others in the current administration continue to cover for Saudi murder and the massacre in Yemen. It's time we stop all military aid to this rouge nation which was the home of the 9/11 terrorists. Diplomatic missions should be reduced to "Charge d'Affaires" level until the Saudis become a civilized and moral nation which they may not be capable of being.
20
'Mr. Graham said he would not vote for the Yemen resolution...would rally for a different effort..."
So, in clearer terms, Sen. Graham is stomping his feet, using comical phrases but won't actually take any real immediate action. He won't hold the Arab prince accountable in a strong clear meaningful way.
I get it, I've watched this drama of uninspiring rhetoric before. The GOP are blusterers. Unless Hillary Clinton's name is available. Then jail time, or subpoenas, or sanctions, or hearings, or endless hours of hearings, finally sabotaged elections fly easily from the GOP action plan. No problem punishing that American diplomat. But the Saudi Prince?
13
I've always figured that Republican Congresspeople would turn on Trump prior to 2020 in order to distance themselves from him before the election. (My theory is that Republicans need to effectively whitewash the past two years and calm everything down or they likely lose Congress and the White House in 2020 whereas Democrats are in position to both prevent Trump legislation and keep their base extremely fired up so long as Trump remains in the White House.)
With midterms done and the House gone in 40 seat swing (and, perhaps, an economy teetering on the edge), Republicans now know for sure that Trump is an electoral liability.
They got what they could from him when they had legislative power and now it's time to move on.
This could very well be the impetus for that.
6
@AGuyInBrooklyn
Ballot harvesting responsible for a fair percent of those. Nothing about the midterms suggests a Trump Liability for the GOP. In fact, comparing the 2018 mid-terms to what both Obama and Clinton saw in their first terms it looks like a Trump Affect, Not a Trump Liability. How else do you account for that -2 democratic pickup in the Senate?
So Lindsay Graham is speaking out publicly on his differences with Trump. If he expects any one to pay attention, or take him seriously, he should have been thinking of that when he burned his credibility to the ground by agreeing with Trump all those times.
9
As could be expected, GOP Senators continue to equivocate on actions to take, by attempting to distinguish between the nation and its leadership, so they can claim to stay on the moral high ground. No better than Trump!
2
"Senators, however, were divided as to what steps to take next, following a stinging vote last week to consider a measure cutting off American military aid to the Saudi-led war in Yemen."
I don't understand. Who did last week's vote sting, exactly? And why, exactly, do Senators not seem to know what steps to take next? Would it not be logical to go ahead and cut off American military aid to the Saudi-led war in Yemen, for starters? Please explain.
4
They as they have been for years now weigh how this will affect them, then their party, then their donors. Then maybe how it will look to us , oh and then maybe the country. The GOP has their standards. Right?
Nothing will be done. Nothing. We have no 'moral high ground' on this issue. We are no longer the 'moral north star' of the world (we have not been for many year, lest anyone think I am singling out DJT). We are beholden to the Saudis for oil (less so than in the past, but enough to be important), sales of military goods, services, etc. to the tune of a 5.4 billion dollar trade surplus (25 billion dollars of US exports) with the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. We look to the Saudis as a bulwark against Iran. We have overlooked the role of the Saudis in financing Sunni fundamentalism that leads to terror, the Saudi role in the 9/11 hijacking, etc. Frankly, if Khashoggi wasn't a journalist, I doubt anyone in the US would even give his killing any lip service. This too shall pass. Condolences to the Khashoggi family.
7
The Saudis own a huge chunk of the USA. Are they not major shareholders in our Wall Street banks? Was that not a factor in the Wall Street giveaway in 2008. It is no longer what is good for Main Street.....it is what is good for Mohammed Avenue.
While it's good to see Congress take the blinders off a bit re MBS - though with Sen. Graham one always has to wonder how long this latest impulse of the day will last - I hope this episode leads to inspection of the larger willful myopia that has infected US policy approaches in the Middle East. Our Iranphobia and meddling, long spurred by energy thirst and competition and by the domestic influences of some of our "friends" in the region, need to be reevaluated for the long haul.
I'm by no means suggesting not holding Iran accountable for misdeeds and hegemonic aggression, but it cannot be denied that the US's perspective and objectivity about Iran have long been very skewed. We have a very checkered past in the region, and dubious motives and no small amount of exploitation, abuse and hypocrisy, and those to this day affect our credibility and effectiveness in forging the durable relationships of lasting trust and integrity that our nation and the world need. We need a new iteration of what American leadership is and what it stands for.
3
The US has learned nothing from its failed war in Afghanistan that has left a political vacuum in that country outside of urban centres - a vacuum that provides optimal ground for political radicalization by al Qaida and other militants. Yemen is already a recruiting ground and it will only get worse. Apart from lucrative business deals, there is no advantage to having Saudi Arabia as an Islamic ally in the "Middle East". Trump obviously won't reprimand his bff MBS. Equally obvious is that no Republican politician is willing to grow a spine if it means crossing the Big Guy.
3
Trump will do nothing to but support the Saudi government - ignore him. Stop the Yemen war that is killing too many people. Talk to Iran about helping stop the war. Stop supporting the Saudi government with arms, money, and ... DJM
1
Does it bother American people that their CIA is spying on the highest levels of government of one of their allies? Would the reverse be tolerated by the American people?
@Doctor A Does not bother me. Everybody spies on everybody. Nothing new in that.
@Doctor A
Why do you think that US allies are not spying on the US government? And how would the American people not tolerate being spied on by a foreign power? What could they/would they do?
The job of the CIA is collect any and all information from foreign sources that might be important for American interests.
That is what they did in this case.
So apparently the argument from the Republicans is that the Saudi have the US over a barrel and there is nothing that the US can do.
So whereas long term allies in Europe and Canada are subjected to endless public abuse and economic sanctions because the president does not understand economics, there is nothing that the US can do about a country that has a murderous crown prince running things.
This reeks of deep-state machinations to satisfy big money donors, not principled statecraft and public policy.
Thanks GOP, good to see that you are staying the course on your core policies and beliefs.
11
Of course trump knows this is true! He lies about everything to cover his behind. This comes as no surprise to those of us who have been paying attention!
3
Why are you leaving out this astounding statement by Sen. Graham?
"As to Pompeo and Mattis, I have great respect for them. I would imagine if they were in a Democratic administration, I would be all over them for being in the pocket of Saudi Arabia, but since I have such respect for them, I’m going to assume that they’re being good soldiers, and when they’re looking at the analysis, they’re being technical in their statement, but they’re not giving the assessment that I think the Senate will have. "
A majority member of the Senate Armed Services Committee just admitted that he would have less (maybe zero) respect for the Secretary of State and the Secretary of Defense if they were Democrats, but he's holding them to a lower standard because they're Republicans. Roll your eyes all you want. That he feels perfectly comfortable saying this out loud and on camera could only be the case in a Washington inured to the absence of decorum, ethics, and the rule of law.
39
There seems to be plenty of hard evidence about bin Salman's direct connection to the Khashoggi murder and mutilation.
It makes one wonder about one very symbolic moment at the G-20 Summit---the astounding high-five and broad, conspiratorial grins of Putin's greeting of bin Salman.
Is it possible that Putin and bin Salman were celebrating the ease with which the current President of the United States can be made to accept--or at least not protest--the brutal tactics of authoritarian leaders at their worst?
6
"“Somebody should be punished, but the question is: How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?” [Senator] Shelby said."
Sometimes you can't. Sanctions are a blunt instrument, but sometimes they're the best or the only instrument that you have. Start sanctioning, Senator.
5
It’s difficult to believe that the President*, Secy of State, Secy of Defense all testified that they saw no “smoking gun” yet the CIA speaking with the Senate, convinced them MBS was directly responsible for the killing of a journalist. What has Trump done to this country. Who has he put in charge of the largest and most influential departments of the government? Why are we allowing this disembeling of our democracy? This has to be yet another “END” of this disasterous “reign of terror” of the Trump family!
5
Why is John Brennan there?
Bar tennant,
The photo is from George H.W. Bush's service.
1
@Bar tennant Former CIA director? Paying his respects to a former President and CIA director? Kidding right?
1
@Bar tennant
It looks like the image is from GHW Bush's wake.
1
With Trump's penchant for habitual lying and with Trump's and Kushner's ability to profit from Saudi relationships, should anyone be surprised that the president of the United States pretends to be unconvinced in the face of evidence that brings condemnation from our intelligence services and now from members of the Senate. The GOP and American citizens live through hard times now and we need someone in the GOP to step up and provide sane and sensible leadership to replace the crazy and corrupt practices of the child we call president.
4
I found the media’s intense focus on this story very self-indulgent. The Saudi regime has plenty of blood on his hands. Many innocent civilians have disappeared almost overnight for supposed crimes against the regime. And yet because this poor man was a reporter, his death matters more to the main stream media. How about the American media spend more time pressuring the American president and congress to Push harder to end the war in Yemen where the Saudi’s have murdered Hundred of-thousands and are directly responsible for the present starvation of hundreds of thousands of men, women and children?
4
MBS becomes persona-non-grata in USA? What will happen to his investment of 500 million to William Morris Endeavour Agency in Beverly Hills last spring?
1
Sen. Graham needs to take concrete action against Saudi Arabia, beyond stopping all military equipment and support, but making it clear that the Fifth Fleet is only deployed to protect US interests, not the Saudi monarchy. Otherwise, he will be just as duplicitous about the murder as Trump. It is beyond the pale that Trump maintains his position, as do his lap dogs, Pompeo, Bolton and, sadly, Mattis. Additionally, Mnuchin could easily stop all international funds transfers to and from royal family members and seize their property in all Trump branded buildings in the US in a heartbeat if the Senate ordered it.
2
Another example of how the corrupt Trump administration tried to cover up the truth to serve their own selfish agenda. Have the Republicans finally decided to wise up? Would the 2018 Blue Wave have anything to do with this?
2
Remember Jared Kushner's building in NYC, 666 Madison that needed bailing out?
Perhaps a personal deal with MBS is what is keeping Trump a Saudi supporter.
2
I saw Bob Corker speaking after this briefing, and he sounded shaken up. Fair enough. This murder was horrific and it must be shocking to hear the information they heard.
But I would also hope that some of his upset comes from acknowledging how vile, inhumane, self-interested, and un-American Trump's response has been to Khashoggi's murder.
And, beyond that, this is what the Republicans (even Corker with his minor anti-Trump rebellions) have wrought by allowing a wannabe autocrat/corrupt maniac to rise to the office of the President of the United States. This goes beyond cutting taxes for the rich and decimating the environment for profit (as awful as those things are). Trump's entire ascendancy has been a betrayal of the most important and fundamental American values and the Republican party has been complicit every step of the way.
Of course I won't hold my breath waiting for any of them to have even a moment of that kind of honest self-reflection.
4
Now waiting for Trump to Tweet castigating and insulting CIA director. Not sure if her days are numbered in CIA.
2
Yawn. Every President since Truman has looked the other way when the Saudi’s did this or that horrible thing. Occasionally, there would be a withdrawal of this deal or that deal; maybe some resolution by the Congress and all would go quietly back to order in a few months. Khashoggi is no more a journalist than Paris Hilton reporting from Hollywood. The Washington Post own website list him as an opinion writer; he was in fact a Saudi Palace insider/ Mr. Fix it that backed the wrong guy when MSB came to power. The Saudi’s are not nice people who dealt with him as they do. Trump’s only crime here is not pretending to play the “oh we are outraged” game – just like all former Presidents have done. Perversely, the most honest and open US dealings with the Saudi’s has been Trump.
3
If he was honest, he would stop denying that MBS was involved. Trump is a liar. Period.
The murder of Jamal Khashoggi was horrible, but it is wrong to create a false equivalence with the crimes against humanity perpetrated in Yemen.
Because of Yemen alone, US must freeze and confiscate the Saudi assets in America, cut all business and diplomatic ties with those criminals, sanction any country bypassing the commercial embargo ......
Sanction couple of individuals for one murder, is not the good answer when the regime kills thousands of Yemeni a day.
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Blockade Saudi Arabian ports. Don't allow loaded oil tankers out nor empty ones in.
If the US has not embedded Trojan horses into the computer code of the fighter jets sold to the kingdom that allows the fleet to be rendered un-flyable, that was a huge mistake. If it does exist, ground the planes now.
At this point, diplomatic overtures to Iran, allowing it to market its oil, and dialing back the rhetoric of war and making genuine overtures for peace are more palatable than continuing to prop up Saudi Arabia, which is exactly what Trump is doing.
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The Saudies oil keeps the world economy afloat. The idea that the US would block aid Saudi ports would turn the world and put allies even more against us. The US can use our economic and diplomatic power to isolate the Crown Prince. We have the power, with the support of our European allies to push the Crown Prince out of power. The Saudi King just needs to replace him with another Prince. Just refusing to deal with him might be enough.The European know the Prince is now internationally toxic.
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@Glen
Is that the Iran that just tested a missile and was caught plotting terror attacks in Europe? Even the UK and France are waking up to what is going on in Iran. They were the ones who asked for the UN Security Council to meet to discuss the recent events. Maybe even going to put on some new sanctions for that terror plot and the missile launch. So exactly the wrong time to suggest cozying up to Iran.
@GregP
Two words, GregP: North Korea. Trump's bromance with Kim Jong Il has gone nowhere. The population of NK believes the Kim family's propaganda about the US. We're in a no-win proposition there. They HAVE nuclear weapons and the delivery vehicles to put them on our doorsteps. Are you convinced Trump will succeed there?
Since the Shah was deposed, our argument with Iran has ever and only been with its leadership, not with its populace. We have friends and admirers in the cities and villages. Sincere overtures and honest diplomacy is much more likely to work in Tehran than in Pyong Yang.
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As to the question of why Ms. Haspel did not attend the first hearing on the murder: she has in the past probably come close to this type of behavior “on behalf” of the US. The senators who attended this hearing should be ready to act according to American values, by making a stand against sanctioned murder.
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"... it could very well be that the Crown Prince had knowledge of this tragic event - maybe he did and maybe he didn’t! That being said, we may never know all of the facts surrounding the murder of Mr. Jamal Khashoggi"
After such a horrific crime, it is good to know that we have a President who will assess the best intelligence available to him and take decisive action.
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@Debbie
Trump is too ignorant to run a golf course, let alone a country, and his blind loyalty to the malevolent House of Saud is grounded entirely on his boundless greed--and their mutual love of cruelty for its own sake.
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Now the main question for me is- will these GOP congressmen hold Trump accountable for denying any MBS involvement in the murder and making American policies thinking that MBS is not involved in it!
Will GOP Congressmen would demand full disclosure of Trump business dealings with Saudi, Russia and other such rogue regimes around the world, which are also one of the biggest national security threat to USA.
Mere lip service and pretending to be angry does not make any sense and makes no difference in terms of policy and strategy to protect American national interest. At the end of the day, what matters is how one vote in the Congress and what policies they actually support or oppose. So far, most GOP Congressmen, including this Lindsey Graham, are only barking dog who hardly can bite.
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If the evidence is so overwhelming, why were Trump and his admin in full denial mode - perhaps they had the wrong audiotape?
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@Grace Thorsen:
I heard the one the Administration has; it said, "Donald, remember when we bailed you out by purchasing that building and your boat in the '90's?"
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@Grace Thorsen
Money is more important than morals for the current administration.
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"'Somebody should be punished, but the question is: How do you separate the Saudi crown prince from the nation itself?' Mr. Shelby said."
The answer is that you that you don't, and in fact should not, separate them. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, and Kashoggi is the state. He's just not as eloquent as Louis XIV.
The Saudis are guilty of state-sponsored terror, and we don't actually need them as allies. They are one of the top recipients of US aid; they deserve punishment; cut them off immediately.
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The Saudis with their excess oil production capacity literally control the price of oil. The King, not the Crown Prince is the ultimate power in terms of who will run the country. In other words the Crown Prince only rules at the King's pleasure. The US can quietly tell the King the Crown Prince is now too tainted to continue in power. A new Prince needs to be named as the heir apparent. Trump has been the reason the Prince is still in place. If the US withdraws its support, the Crown Prince will be replaced.
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You are correct. The concept of divine right of kings is alive and well in SA. and MbS and his father the King are the state. The enlihjtenment has not and will not reach SA, I fear.
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@Petersburgh ...and ask why we are giving one of the richest dynastic families on earth any aid at all.
Looks to me like a few Senators are starting to sweat the 2020 elections. I haven’t seen this much bucking in the GOP faction since trump took “office”. Perhaps they’re starting to see what tying themselves to a nincompoop is actually doing to their chances.
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As long as President Trump is not convinced, nothing will be done.
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He knows better but it doesn’t fit neither his agenda nor his values.
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Trump knows full well the Prince has blood on his hands. The question is why he continues to support him. Its most likely money. Trump has personally benefited from Saudi money and It's a pretty good bet he believes the Saudis will reward Trump and his family handsomely when he leaves office. Trump does not want to jeopardize this payola.
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@janye We can assume by their denial of the truth that, if left up to Trump, he'd do the same thing MBS did were it not for our other 2 branches of gov't. He's amoral as long as he can dictate and get what he wants. Laws? They're made to be flouted, dismissed or ignored.
It is now or never for these GOP Senators. Have they lost their soul for party politics? Is American value system not bigger than Democrats or Republicans? Do we not care about human rights?
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.@LN - Yes. No. Maybe.
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@LN They were "willfully blind" throughout. Just ask them about that and the Kavanaugh decision. Time will tell how they grievously erred on the wrong side history during this administration.
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@Helleborus I completely agree with you. Unlike Kavanaugh, this is a murder of a journalist and it should be a wakeup call for these politicians. If we do not punish the Saudis now, they , along with the other dictators will be emboldened and that is the most scary part.
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So now what? Is Trump going to come out from underneath of his "wish washy" statements and denials, and come to terms with Mohammed bin Salman as a assassin? -Is Trump going to stand up and support for the Central Intelligence Agency findings on the murder of Jamal Khashoggi? We all know the answers to this- he is going to the George H. W. Bush's funeral and make nice.
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Of course the Prince was complicit. Was there any genuine doubt about it? The Senate did not need a closed door CIA briefing to confirm what was very obvious from the public record. But now that they have it, the question is, what will the Senate and the House do about it? Can they come together on something as clear and basic as this and take bipartisan action in the best interests of this nation?
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@Jeffrey Zuckerman CIA evidence of what happened is different than numerous newspaper accounts speculating about it. Just because everyone suspected the Prince was behind it, didn't make it necessarily true. We still needed someone to examine all the facts, mostly not available to the public, to reach that conclusion. Now the CIA has done this.
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@Tundra Green A good point. Understand. But the evidence available publicly was pretty overwhelming. And, it must be remembered that we are not dealing with standards of legal proof, e.g., proof beyond a reasonable doubt, or the Federal Rules of Evidence, when it comes to the Congress making public policy. The CIA too bases its conclusions on less than a legal standard.
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STOP THE SALE OF WAR WEAPONS TO THE SAUDIS!! American weapons are being used by the Saudis to kill babies and children in Yemen. Turning a blind eye to a gruesome murder of Khashoggi and mass murders of the people of Yemen is not an acceptable strategy under any circumstance. Moral values are more important than strategy. Ultimately, permanent peace will be attained from moral righteousness, not from strategy.
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Trump has made lots of money off the Saudis in the past.
Trump plans on making lots of money off the Saudis in the future.
Hmmm, the senators that don't have any business interests in Saudi Arabia are thoroughly convinced of the prince ordering the murder of a journalist.
Our president, who is supposed to represent our nation, not his own interests, completely disagrees.
Sure, he's unbiased and telling the truth.
Sadly, it's his version of the truth.
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Talk about self-parody. I couldn't help but laugh out loud when I read that Lindsey Graham has finally realized that Congress is "a coequal branch of government." After all his Trump enabling, suddenly Sen. Graham is suddenly standing strong for "the country's long-term interests" and not Donald Trump's short-term financial gains. So, Graham has flipped, but I, for one, wouldn't be surprised to seem him now flop after hearing from C.I.A. Director, Gina Haspel. And, the sad truth is that the U.S. should never have agreed to support the invasion of Yemen by Saudi Arabia which has now created a failed-state and a massive humanitarian crisis. It's time to send aid to the starving people in Yemen and not weapons to the Saudis.
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While we are on the subject, what would President George H.W. Bush have done if faced with this situation? Remember, lots of close relationships between the Saudis and the Bush family.
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Under Bush the killing would not have happened
I think "wrecking ball" is really the best description I've heard for Graham's king, the American president.
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It’s sort of crazy to be trying to punish the Saudi’s for assassinating one man while we are all getting our hands covered with civilian blood in Yemen. Oh, but those are just unavoidable casualties of war, nobody killed them with evil intent....
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I think it was Stalin who observed that the death of one person is a tragedy but that the death of ten thousand is a statistic.
Having read this article with attention to the quotes from the senators, it appears another case of the expression of moral outrage, but with neither the will nor the conviction to do anything about it other than talk. Sigh. Just another day in Congress.
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To state the obvious Trump is up to his neck in business deals with the Saudis and it is only a matter of time until it is all revealed. The questions is will any of his followers care.
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This goes in the same bucket as climate change.
Pretty much proven behind a shadow of a doubt, therefore Trump doesn't believe it, it can't possibly be true, fake news.
Jeeez...
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Trump seems to be able to accept just about anything in order to get his hotels in Russia and Saudi Arabia.
Would that he and his whole family just moved to either country and left us alone.
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Try to cut any sort of ties and sanctions with Saudi Arabia and guess where all the trillions of Saudi money in New York goes?and we suffer thousands of job losses because like it or not their money is invested of hundreds of thousands of companies in the US. We're not threatening Albania.
@Scrumper
So life has a price?
What's the tipping point? 2 journalists murdered?
5? 10? 12? 100? Where do "jobs" become not as important
@Scrumper
I read your comment and I'd like to know where you think the "trillions" would go?
They'd crash the stock market and badly wound Wall St and would likely accrue a substantial loss should they withdraw all their investments. Not to mention all the financials in the US dollar which that would decline along with the market.
Hit them with meaningful sanctions and I'm guessing the Royal Bigwigs might very well reconsider their family succession plans. They've got under-employed princelings aplenty.
How do you punish those responsible? Regime change.
The Saudis have been a thorn in everyone's side, Arab, Persian and Western, since their first Emir in the 1700's. Take the oil, exile them to Dubai and keep the money.
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Part of me understands that the geopolitical reality of the Middle East is that you are dealing with a power structure, value system, and culture that does not echo that of our own. Additionally, it must be made clear that Saudi money is significantly entwined within the very core of some of our most prestigious corporations and banks (Citi, etc.). That lends itself to choices that ordinarily would not be accepted within our own society. Further, if you apply a realpolitik type scenario, then the Saudis are similar to other despots our country assisted in the collapse of Soviet communism. In other words, I get why the administration is hesitant to say something more direct about this - however, some of those past instances were hidden from the general public until after they occurred (like Vietnam, Central American instability). This is out in the open - hence there is no absolving our responsibility as Americans to publicly apply our values in this situation and put an end to our financial support of MbS and the current Saudi leadership. There must be other Saudi players that could continue the flow of capital and investment within the wider world that don't have such a horrific history of abuses. Or are there any others?
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Bottom line here is that the spooks are not in the business of anything other than assigning a level of confidence to their assessment, which they have done. This will not be forgotten....
They get a "classified" briefing and then immediately call a press conference?
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