CNN has just played the video of the body double MBS sent with his hit squad whose role was to wait until Khashoggi was murdered, then put on the dead man's clothing and head out the back of the embassy (hence no video of Khashoggi leaving the way he came in) and then wander past a few street surveillance cameras for Turkish police to see, before he goes into a crowded mosque, changes back into his own clothes and goes out for a well-earned lunch.
So it is an undeniable fact that it was their intention to murder Khashoggi immediately he arrived at the embassy. The "choke hold" story is a blatant and stupid lie. Mohammed bin Salman is exposed as being more stupid and inept than even Trump. Erdogan wanted a chance to assert himself over the Saudis and MBS delivered up a more crushingly stupid mistake than anyone could have imagined.
Trump has absolutely no morals or principles so, hopefully, this latest irrefutable fact will be enough to get Trump to dump MBS the way he would dump anyone else. It doesn't matter if Trump supporters care about this or not, the Democrats have a lock on winning control of the House in November and they are going to spend the next two years destroying Trump day after day after day after day.
Sadly for the Americans reading this, that means pretty soon you will have thousands of Trump militia in camo gear with their AR-15s locked and loaded flocking to DC to take over the country. That's when China takes Taiwan! You got the president you deserve.
1
MBS should be sent to the International Criminal Court to be tried for torture and murder.
1
Looks like Erdogan is looking for MBS to sweeten the deal a bit indeed saying to himself 'I come to bury my friend Jamal, not to praise him'.
This comedy of errors is no comedy , but the heinous murder of a human being . Sadly the ongoing Shia vs Sunni division has been ongoing for centuries ; and those caught in the crossfire are the victims . Truth is a terrible burden to bear and bare for some , so they become irrelevant and disposed of . Khashoggi is one .
2
Most informative article of the day -- thanks!
2
I'm looking forward to viewing a video of Mr. K fending off an attack after having his fingers surgically removed by the forensic doctor who was identified as part of the attackers. It sounds like something out of one of John Cleece's comedy skits.
2
If the Afghan and Iraq War accomplished anything, it would be to prove that neither Kabul nor Baghdad were the real source of terrorism.
If it were, our military would have destroyed it as it happened with the fascism in Rome and the Nazism in Berlin.
It just means our government deployed the troops in the completely wrong arena.
The same happened with Washington D.C. sending our military to Vietnam to stop the communism. That social order could have been contained peacefully - simply by creating the better quality life for the middle class and the poor here at home than the governments behind the Iron Curtain could.
The problem is that our ruling elite has now started dismantling the system that enabled us to be victorious in that conflict - cutting the tax rates on the extremely profitable global corporations and slashing the benefits provided by the Social Security and the Medicare.
Don’t they understand that the competition with the communism isn’t over but more tense than ever before?
The most populous country in the world is still the communist one. Even more worrisome, after the initial economic hiccups Beijing has found the way to make their economy extremely efficient and gained plenty of the capital to invest into the local education and scientific institutes.
Let’s not claim again that nobody could have predicted what’s behind a corner.
To clearly see the future we have to learn how to control our greed.
3
Somebody explain to me why this mans death is such an international, much less an American, concern. As I understand it he was a Saudi citizen who worked in the US on an issued work visa, he was killed, or at least disappeared from, a foreign consulate office in another foreign country and he had provoked, through his writings, the leadership of his home country, Saudi Arabia, which is at best an autocratic monarchy. Now we are hearing from American politicos and others that the Saudi government must be removed, boycotts and sanctions must be laid out and all commerce with the Saudis must be halted. Why? It's not my problem or America's problem but the Saudis problem, and they've offered an explanation for what happened...whether you or I or anybody believes it is not relevant. It's not necessary for us to believe their explanation. It's a different part of the world with a radically different culture than the West and it is not going to change because we don't like it.
2
One likely explanation for Trump's bromance with MBS is Trump's financial ties with the Saudis. Another reason for the Dems to take the House, so they can finally get Trump's tax returns and subpoena his financial records.
2
One important element of this outrageous story is the unanswered (in the US, at least) question :"What the heck was Kashoggi doing entering what amounted to a tiny outpost of his worst enemy-even if in Trukey-in the first place?
All of the stories that he needed documents of some sort in order to get married have a hollow sound. As any educated person knows, the embassy or other foreign compounds of a foreign nation-as Saudi Arabia is in Turkey, is the practical equivalent of being back in Saudi Arabia. Considering that most of Europeans and Westerners as well as almost all Arabic peoples refer to the "west" and places such as Europe , Canada or the US as "the Civilized World", (I recall during one of the numerous Balkan Wars back in the 1990's, a right wing Muslim calling in deperation for the intervention of "the Civilized World" to aid his Islamic co religionists from being rounded up or merely being shot at.)
Surely, one would expect that when an individual has so estranged him/herself from a home country that they refuse to visit or live there, that neither would they allow themselves to fall into its custody by allowing themselves to be taken on legally "Saudi" soil?
The story of needing marriage documents sounds like bad cheese smells. Or ,is there one more racialist reason why Saudi princes and members of the ruling classes must have sontact or specially written and stamped documents only available from saudi property?
Even sounds dumb.
1
In November of 2017, Saudi Prince Talal sold his 6% shares of FOX, but to whom the press was unclear. Of course, he'd just been put under house arrest by MBS, so my guess is MBS owns those shares, now.
Why else would FOX allow MBS's spokesman to shop a bunch of lies while his henchmen killed a well known journalist? That 6% was always known as enough to protect the Murdoch family from the hostility of their other shareholders. Still standing, so MBS must hold those shares.
So, the Saudis have FOX over a barrel with stock shares. And they also hold evidence they offered Trump social media manipulation packages TWICE during the campaign blowing away his claims of no collusion. I think Trump's claim he's just protecting our weapons makers is a con too. He's out for himself, and so is FOX.
4
On the other "hand", Erdogan leaves enough time for the Saudis to buy him off.
2
Erdogan's credibility erodes with every hour he delays in releasing what he knows. He's had more than enough time.
1
In the Arab world nobody cares about the death if Khashoggi and the continuous coverage of his death. There is almost no coverage of the war in Yemen, which the Saudis have been doing for the last three years using American weapons. That's what I read in the Arab newspapers and Facebook posts.
2
He’s been threatening this for a couple of weeks, what’s the hold up?
3
@Tim Rutledge, detective work takes time especially when the body is missing.
1
If Turkey releases clear information of how Mr.Khashoggi was killed, and that information squashes the Saudi Government's new false explanation, the The U.S. and the World need to send a Clear message to the Saudis. Trump is using the excuse it will cost jobs if we stop the Arms deal with Saudi Arabia. Even if this was the case how can the U.S. say jobs are more important than the Muder of a U. S. Resident. There was a Time when The United States of America stood for something, and fought against these kind of Actions. Trump and his boy wonder Jared are too close to the Saudis. Why? These Two are Patriotic only to Money.
11
Erdogan is playing tough with the Saudis who surely are unhappy with him.
If the brouhaha continues between them will they come to blows over it?
If the Saudis attack our NATO ally Turkey, whose side will we take and what will we do?
4
It appears that US intelligence had already intercepted communications where luring Jamal Khashoggi back to Saudi Arabia was being discussed.
Which is nothing short of standing by seeing a crime being committed.
If the above is true then it would be practically impossible for Jared not to have known about the plan given his security clearence and special focus on Saudi Arabia.
It would be hard to not see that Trump would be "fine" with Jamal being detained given his tepid response to the murder.
So what did the Trump administration know and when?
8
The Saudi have arrested 18 suspects in the now acknowledged murder of Khashoggi. They will convict and behead them before they can give evidence or be interrogated by any outsiders. That'll be the end of it. MBS gets away, Erdogan gets billions of debt relief, Trump can continue to twiddle.
5
I wouldnt be too sure that they have been arrested - how many would then want to do dirty work if the reward is prison on a job ”well done”?
@opop
I hope not, but that does sound likely. At least we are reading about it.
1
This whole scenario makes no sense. The Turks claim to have evidence, and I believe they do, but they keep it secret while the Saudi's investigate 'themselves?' No one should ever be allowed to investigate themselves when a accused of a crime. Why in the world would the Turks not release their findings at least within the first week if not immediately?!
1
It's nice people are listening to Turkey now, but the entire world ignored Canada when they pointed out during the summer that Saudi Arabia had gone completely insane.
6
It will be interesting to see if Turkey’s President really discloses the full truth.
2
The problem with nepotism in our government where inexperienced in laws are allowed to decide foreign policy based on their personal financial interests. Trump also having received hundreds of millions of dollars from Saudi and Russia seems to form his international policies based on his personal financial interests. The GOP looks the other way as long as they get tax cuts for the rich and right wing judges. If the Dems fail to take back the House Trump will be emboldened to operate as an imperial president quasi dictator using the powers of his office and the AG to enforce his will. The Trump family will leave office as the richest family in the world.
1
The proper actions for Turkey and the US would be to cut ties to Saudi Arabia altogether. Since neither of these nations have the guts to let the middle eastern people solve their own problems, and both of them are enslaved to the oil and money flowing from it, neither of these nations will stand up to protect those living under the US Bill of Rights from atrocities committed by rich, powerful people.
They still think the chess game is working. If they remained committed to the game after 9/11, they sure won't rethink it after a single, democracy-destroying atrocity, because of course democracy is for poor folks in their view.
2
The assassination of Khachoukji is a crime executed outside Saudi Arabia by Saudi agents against a person, legal resident in the US.
The world forced Lebanon to pay for a Special Tribunal for Lebanon for the murder of PM Rafiq Hariri, killed in his own country, and without the legally necessary accord of the Lebanese President of that time.
Moreover, PM Hariri, before being killed, Rafiq Hariri had accepted to reelect President Lahoud against the will of "his" Saudi king and its allies.
In fact, Hariri was elected in 1992 Prime Minister of Lebanon… His mission, given by his Saudi bosses, was to disarm the Hezbollah and implant the Palestinians in Lebanon. For that goal, he could drown Lebanon in debts that reached 41 billion dollars and Hariri's one 16.7 billions. He got all these advantages, but didn't keep his promises. He was then assassinated.
Lebanon was forced then to sign an illegal agreement on the creation of an international court without referring to the approval of the President of the republic (article 52 of the constitution).”
If Lebanon was forced to accept and pay for an international court, so should a kingdom, logical suspect in Hariri's killing and who recognized killing Khachoukji, in Istanbul, while justice about this crime interests four countries, Turkey, The USA, the KSA Arabia and Lebanon, because it could solve the problem of the Lebanese PM’s murder and allow Lebanon to ask for compensations for the damages and debts incurred, since 1992.
Faust didn’t actually sell his soul to the devil.
He just sold out his fundamental principles for the money.
That’s the very base of the “special relationship”.
1
Only trump can now force Turkey to not release the facts of the murder. Turkey reportedly does not like the Saudi murderous prince and so has a reason to release the facts which discredit and expose their Saudi enemy.
I'm disgusted Mnuchin is going to SA to play nice with the Prince's terror guides. Is he sure he won't be arrested? Couldn't happen? MBS has kidnapped Prime Ministers, folks! Maybe he can force Mnuchin to resign, too?
1
Lordy, I hope there are Tapes.
1
If you've seen the video of the body double wearing Khashoggi's clothing out of the embassy then entering a public restroom where he changed back into the clothing he wore into the embassy, then you know Khashoggi was naked while they dismembered him, as well as alive. A hoodied guard accompanied the double.
So, let's see all of it. It's time we took off the gloves and smeared this man's blood all over the face of MBS's con game. That body double could not fit into Khashoggi's shoes, so that whole ruse was as useless as Trump's coverage.
8
The final outcome of this international charade will be that Donald Trump deports Fethullah Gullen back to Turkey, where Recep Erdogan can do to him [Gullen] what Crown Prince Salman has done to Jamal Khashoggi.
There are so many liars and power brokers in this blunder that need to exact either 'cover', retribution, or 'coup' upon one another that it is absolutely impossible that the world will ever know the truth.
This way, Trump covers his stupidity and naivete ahead of the mid-terms; Erdogan gets to destroy his critic whom he believes incited an uprising in Turkey; Salman can continue to lie to the world and maintain his created image as a youthful progressive Saudi reformer, and the Khashoggi family will be told that it was some form "rogue" Saudi agents that murdered the journalist. The Saudis will make a spectacle of the public execution of the accused agents who've been scapegoated, and everyone will have been absolved of any wrongdoing. End of story.
5
Gotta give this guy Erdogan credit, six months ago the NYT had him as a brutal autocrat in the making. Today he embodies truth, justice and the American way.
7
In the matter of Mr. Khashoggi's death, the actions of Mr. Erdogan seem to be politically motivated. Otherwise, we would be seeing a police spokesman releasing information. This does not bode well for the quality of information provided by the Turkish Government.
2
We, the public if not the Trump and his administration, too, know so little about the various factions, factions within factions, and the historical arc of the forces in play. What worries me is that what i do know is that trump is not thinking long term nor is he building the alliances that serve Americans. It will always be about him and the next five minutes. Painful to not see any other potential leader from either party, fill the void. How I ache for statesmanship. It’s like turning on the radio and all I can hear is the bravado of rap music, when what I really want is just real music!
17
@william phillips
RE:
"not thinking long term nor is he building the alliances that serve Americans"
So in essence you seem to be saying that the US shouldn't elect a president unless they prioritize American's long-term interest in the middle east. I argue that us Americans have no long term interest in the middle east, but if we accept your argument, then it follows that you are concerned about 'our' interests and Trump is concerned about 'his' interests, while neither of you are concerned about 'their' interests.
You seem the same as Trump to me, but your crafted statement seems a bit more PC to the average American's eyes/ears.
Turkey is in a unique position. Geographically a cusp between Europe and Central Asia, it is an amalgam of both cultures. Although ancient, it is also a modern state. Neither the Emirates nor Saudi Arabia have been able to provide their citizens the kind of freedom, comfortable access to Europe, as Turkey. Without playing into mischief and rascality, if Turkey is able to prove transparency and good will, perhaps the world will start believing in it.
18
Please wake up folks. The Trump and Kushner families care not one whit for the economy or well-being, or anything, of the American people. They care only for themselves. No longer able to steal money in New York, they moved to Russia, but that has gotten complicated. So, where is the next huge cache of stolen money that might be grabbed? Saudi Arabia, of course. It's all very simple--Jared Kushner has been working on it for a long time already. If Saudi Arabia doesn't work out for them, where else can they go for the billions of stolen money they need?
30
Turkey HOSTS US NUCLEAR WEAPONS, along with Belgium, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands, making them much more than a NATO ally. I remember how surprised I was to learn this fact. Turkey has a military and strategic relationship with the US that goes deeper than the 'johnny come lately' Trump and Erdogan administrations.
Donald Trump hates the Washington Post. His son in law Jared Kushner has strong ties to M.B.S. and Saudi Arabia was the first country Trump visited after taking office. That would seem to give the prince a motive to have Khashoggi murdered to please Trump and satisfy himself. Someone in the Trump administration (like Kushner) might have even colluded with someone from the bin Salman regime BEFORE the murder.
'Curiouser and curiouser!” Cried Alice (she was so much surprised, that for the moment she quite forgot how to speak good English).'
21
@RJA
Can’t wait for all of them to go away.
the Middle East: extra helpings of hubris all around.
6
It's kind of ironic that at the same time President Erdogan promises to reveal the details of the murder of Kamal Khashoggi "in full nakedness," details of a Saudi Arabian Khashoggi "double" leaving the Turkish embassy shortly after his murder wearing Khashoggi's clothes demonstrate that the Saudi cover-up of his murder literally was a cover-up.
20
Saudis murdered an American. Turkey releases new evidence daily. Video shows Saudis used a double to make it appear Khashoggi was still alive after he was murdered. 15 men armed with a bone saw proves murder was the plan.Saudis named their own crown prince to head the investigation. Crown prince is investigating himself. Trump insists arms sales are more important . Once again; Saudis murdered an American Journalist. NO arms sales to Saudi Arabia. Ray Sipe
21
@Ray Sipe
Khashoggi was not an American; he was a legal resident. but his four children were US-educated and at least two of them are US citizens.
6
I hear that the latest excuse from the Saudi's is that Khashoggi was killed by mistake. If so, then he must have accidentally fallen into the bone saw multiple times to explain the dismemberment. Interesting story, but I'm sure Trump thinks it's plausible.
15
Wondering if there is a Sunni/Shia angle in this mess or is it an "intramural" affair between Sunnis?
2
@John Griswold both are sunni nations. it is the game of who takes over the sunni world which is kind of odd given both are worse for sunni people.
1
@John Griswold
Cannot be intramural! The murder was within-the-walls (of the embassy), but the case is out in the open, extra-mural.
It's time for the truth, and whole, truth about the gruesome assassination of Jamal Khashoggi at the hands of a Saudi death squad to come out. Let's hope Turkish President Erdogan will reveal it. It's been three weeks with multiple Saudi and U.S. cover stories revealed as lies. It's time for truth and justice.
18
"United States resident" is not the same as "citizen." Kashoggi was not an American citizen. He was Saudi Arabian. Big difference.
3
@Edward Wagner
Yes, but really, SHOULD it be such a big difference? He was living in our country, working for an American newspaper, pursuing the noble work of discerning truth. And, most important, he was a human being.
Yes, I am grateful to be protected by American laws and the American armed forces. I stand for the flag and the anthem. My income is relatively small, but I proudly pay my taxes. I'm fascinated by American history, including the victories and the horrible shames, which we should begin to acknowledge. And I believe that as a country we are still a hopeful model for the world. But really, in the big view, in God's eyes, when you consider what is moral , there SHOULD BE no big difference. All this citizenship stuff is a big game to enable the bureaucrats and align with our piddly regional concerns, affinities and resentments.
7
A reason to continue to support the Saudi Arabians?
1
@Edward Wagner
Dead is dead. No difference.
2
I would be willing to bet that within 48 hours Mr. Erdogan will get what he wants from both Crown Prince Mohammed and President Donald Trump. And, the people of the world will see nothing of the lurid details of the assassination of the assassination and reported dismemberment of Jamal Khashoggi. Recep Tayyip Erdogan will make a "deal" with both.
17
@David Lockmiller
Sadly I share your fear. This news report seems to be leading the reader to this likely outcome.
That Erdogan is weighing revealing more, or less, depending on whether he can force a financial settle from the Saudi's to cover his country's financial losses, is concerning (if you care about the truth and justice for Khashoggi.)
Other comments have questioned what Jared knows, when he knew it, and if he could have but didn't warn Khashoggi.
Maybe there is something there.
More likely, if Erdogan accepts a settlement from the Saudis in exchange for shutting off the leak of information about the consulate murder, then his "friendship" with Khashoggi didn't run very deep.
Khashoggi may prove to only be an expendable knight / pawn?? in a regional game of chess.
8
Thank you, President Erdogan and Law Enforcement Professionals of Turkey.
Let's do this. Let the truth be known.
8
If Turkey has the full story then so does the US which means that Trump is an accomplice to this very clumsy ever changing Saudi story that's insulting to any reasonably intelligent observer and is a cover up to a very serious international crime.
If a clear message is not sent to Trump and his Republican enablers this November that he and his administration is unacceptable then I fear we will be saddled with this dangerously incompetent administration for at least another two years possibly six. That thought should be unacceptable to any law abiding citizen of this country.
24
“Crown Prince Mohammed is the linchpin of a coalition of Middle Eastern states hostile to Mr. Erdogan and his Islamist allies. Mr. Erdogan has cast himself as a champion of the Arab Spring revolts and the election-minded Islamists who hoped to ride them to power.”
Wow!
The truth is exactly the opposite. Crown prince MBS is the champion of the Wahhabi ideology and the Saudi undemocratic rule ever since a Faustian deal was struck between them in the 18th century.
Those demanding the free elections for the people are not the Islamists but the democrats, are they?
We don’t need our troops fighting in the Middle East. The Saudi regime can be brought down by Turkey.
Reformation of Erdogan’s implementation of the Quran would be much easier than the Saudi one! Why? The Saudis have completely distorted the faith by equating it with their Arab culture, language, alphabet, genes, architecture, ancient customs and dogmas.
The Turks are vehemently opposed to all the above.
Erdogan is not perfect, but help him break the Saudi grip and monopoly on the Quran.
If that could be accomplished, the 90% of modernization and reform of the Islam will be achieved.
For example, there is nothing in the Quran preventing the women from driving the cars. That’s just the ancient Wahhabi ideology…
14
I don’t personally like Erdogan because the official Ankara is meddling excessively into the internal affairs of my former homeland, Bosnia and Herzegovina.
But that’s not his fault, but the intellectual mistake of my ex-countrymen.
They let him do it.
Why?
See, the people make catastrophic logical mistakes, not for years and decades, but the centuries!
Bosnia lost its spiritual independence in 1463 when the Ottoman Empire invaded that part of the Balkans.
Ever since the local Muslims equate Istanbul with the faith as if the Quran came from the Sultan.
No, the faith came from the Almighty. The Ottomans just distorted it by launching the endless series of the bloody conquest across the Europe, thus killing many millions people.
See, the faith isn’t spread by the wars and the swords but solely by the words and good deeds.
Those not capable of understanding this basic premise are incapable of understanding the true faith.
I cannot blame Erdogan for the foolishness of our forefathers.
Our own ancient stupidity opened the doors to Erdogan contemporary meddling in Bosnia…
By the way, the Ottomans were able to invade Europe only because the locals were split up and divided along the religious and nationalistic lines, thus unwilling to help each other defend from the foreign invaders.
To solve your problems, focus solely on your own mistakes.
The rest of the world is just exploiting them…
4
“Now Mr. Erdogan, whose government is ranked among the biggest jailers of journalists, can enjoy a novel turn as a defender of the free press, by calling for justice for Mr. Khashoggi.”
That really tells the story, doesn’t it. Journalists have been threatened, murdered and dumped in prison in Turkey, in Mexico, in Russia - even a journalist covering a story in Malta was recently murdered. This is a global issue. Let’s not pretend the Saudis are the only ones doing this or are the worst -
20
You know things are bad when dictators are fighting amongst themselves but why not take advantage of the situation?
Trump does professional wrestling Why hasn't he set up a tag team match yet:
Crusher Don and the Saudi Prince vs. The Turk and The Mad Mullah.
We just need to find a venue since all DonalD's casinos are bankrupt.
8
These Thieves of State are looking to bide time from the Khashoggi murder to find a line of public forgetfulness that will allow for Salmon to continue in his position of power.
Let's not forget what he did to his relatives several months ago...taking hostage in a hotel until they paid up their fortunes to him in exchange for their lives.
Erdogan cannot play this one from the middle. The sooner he realizes that the only way away from future tyranny from Salmon is full disclosure.
10
“There obviously was a tremendous mistake made,” Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir said on Sunday in an interview on Fox News, adding, in a message to Mr. Khashoggi’s relatives: “Our condolences go out to them. We feel their pain.”
In other words, "Oops!"
9
Actually, Erdogan looks like the champion of human rights in this drama while Trump looks like the lackey of a crazy Saudi Prince. I think it’s because Trump gave Erdogan the opening to seem more statesman like by not being so.
17
Khashoggi's murder is appalling. However, where is the outrage about Turkey's (NATO ally) thousands of jailed journalists? Where is the outrage about the rape and murder of Ms. Viktoria Marinova, a Bulgarian (EU and NATO member) investigative journalist?
It seems that all outrage (or lack of it) is calculated based on the geopolitics of the moment. The saddest part is that the American public doesn't really care one way or another, and willing to cheer politicians body slamming our own journalists.
18
Erdogan promising a dramatic announcement to focus all attention on himself is straight out of the Trump playbook. When Trump does it, it frequently ends in a “damp squib,” or another delay. I’ll believe that Erdogan is ready to reveal the “naked truth” about the torture/murder of Jamal Khashoggi when I see it. I’m not holding my breath.
8
An underplayed aspect of his story is that Trump wants to sell arms to a ruthless despot strongly suspected of ordering this macabre killing. How many people could Mr. Bone Saw kill with $110B of lethal weaponry. Mercenary international arms dealers are generally despised if they are freelancers. How can the same transaction on an enormous scale be tolerated in an American head of state?
15
Trump's lying is even worse than the Saudis. He knows that these stories are fictitious. He has been getting the intelligence from the beginning. And he is willing to lie to the American people to protect the Saudi Prince. He was the focal point of the cover up for the Saudis. This is on the edge of treason. He is simply not looking out for the best interests of the United States.
26
Dont believe a word, he is a Liar just like Donald.
Erdogans big Announcements serve as a hidden threat to
embarras MBS more, but just a threat, in fact a reminder of financial aid for his ailing Economy. He never will reveal officially the full truth, even though he knows. What can he gain by revealing? Financial Assistance from Ryadh is much sweeter and Kashoggi is dead anyway. Poor, poor Man from the Bosphorus.
Donalds soft approach on this subject is much the same, too many materialistic interests are at stake und who knows what MBS could reveal? Nothing to gain, only to lose, a cool calculation. And Kashoggi was not an American anyway.
There also will be no substantial efforts from the Republican Congress. Lindsay Graham, Mitch McConnell and alike, big mouths, no Actions, Hypocrites. In a short while the Story will be history, because of the lack of consequences.
How can God allow so much Evil in important positions at the same time on this Planet.
There seems to be a shift in perception of civilized behaviour - or is it only a momentary Episode, soon to end? To a big extent it is in the Hands and Power of the Constituents. Lets hope.
10
Even if Turkey gains some world acclaim for this, and I'm sure that's what they want, the need to know what really happened to Mr. Khashoggi is great enough that we all need to know the facts.
No one should be murdered in this way, let alone a journalist. When the free press is gone, who will call out vicious governmental acts? This is why Trump denigrates the press so often in our country. We cannot allow that to go on.
14
@Barbara
I agree with you, but as other comments highlight, Erdogan may be positioning his country for a bail out from the Saudi's in exchange for ratcheting down Turkish complaints about Khashoggi's murder.
Khashoggi's murder needs to be made into more than a single man's death at the hands of a national security state.
For there to be any justice in this (and I am feeling doubtful) the world community of human rights activists and free speech minded journalists, need to take up the cause of demanding justice; a settlement from the House of Saud that advances the cause of journalism as a countervailing force to the power of a nation / state that can act with impunity, would be in order.
Obviously, if the American press doesn't herald this cause, and the USA State Department doesn't get on board, then Khashoggi may be swept into the dust bin of history, sadly.
1
Good idea to think about geopolitics. We should at least say Hallo to Assad and Iran. Lawrence is over. To expect Arab freedom to come out of Saudi Arabia was crazy from the beginning. Go to Konya to see how broken current Arab states are. And go to Turkey anyway. Go Babazula.
2
I’m confused. Are we rooting for the Muslim Brotherhood-aligned Islamist democratic authoritarians or the Islamic royal authoritarian despots? Asking for a friend...
8
@JeffO
No; I and others are rooting for the freedom of a journalist to speak truth to power.
Khashoggi could be best friends with Donald Trump, a reporter for Fox, and I would still call for justice.
My fear is that we will become "confused" and dismiss this murder as just another Muslim spat.
1
Not enough for the gangster prince to lose power--he needs to lose his life.
4
@Jack Toner
When Roy Cohn and Rudy Giulianni were talking about Paul Castellano talking, that's when Gotti got the go ahead from all the other bosses to take out Paulie.
The big Q is who leaked it? Roy told the guy who outed Ellsberg over the Pentagon Papers to tell everyone he didn't leak it right after Paulie bought it. Rudy?
All we need is for someone MBS is thinking of ratting out to find out.
It appears that in the Saudi governance structure the buck does not stop at the top. Although I have no doubt the Saudi prince was involved in this murder, what matters is a ruling culture --- MBS being the ruler---that would allow such as hideous act to be planned and implemented.
2
It is disgusting to see the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia and other countries all jockeying to see what advantage they can get out of the barbaric murder of Jamal Khashoggi! What has become of our vaulted so called American values and high moral standards? The mad prince of Arabia must be held to account for this murder. It was not just the execution of a journalist who was mildly critical of MBS, it was personal and brutally vicious designed to inflict the utmost pain and suffering. It was meant to send a message to others that might criticize the mad prince.
There should be severe consequences for the all people involved in this murder and most especially for the person that ordered it. Saudi Arabia is not our friend. We need to stop buying their oil and switch to non polluting renewable energy. We should stop putting money into the hands of medieval countries that brutalize their own citizens and neighbors and spread terror around the world. And we need to find out just how much money the Saudis have funneled into Trump and Jared’s pockets!
15
@Mary Tragically you need look no further than the occupant of the White House, strongman Donald Trump who is an empty vessel with no values at all. He's right up there with the Crown Prince and Erdogan, he salivates at the thought of Kim Jung Un, he has absolutely no grasp of the fact that people who are not billionaires, are actually human. He is a Death Star. . What is Trump's reaction to the torture murder and dismemberment of Mr. Kashoggi? He seems puzzled by the fact that everybody is making "so much" of this horror. The Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia allegedly reached across borders, into a sovereign country, and dispatched his personal hit squad into that country to assassinate Mr. Kashoggi, for what possible reason? Because he didn't like what that man was saying. Will he reach out to murder American, British, French journalists? Average Americans on vacation or walking along the street? He has violated so many international laws, it's really beyond belief. But Trump loves him. Forget about protecting our citizens, our journalists, our valued freedom of speech, or the simple every day expectation we Americans should have that we are safe - he could care less. It's business deals - big ones. Nothing else matters to him.
11
“Obviously, there’s been deception and there’s been lies,” the president said in an interview with The Washington Post. “Their stories are all over the place.”
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
23
Sometimes I wonder if I correctly understand the faith.
Then I remember where I grew up – in Sarajevo, in Bosnia.
To fit in and be truly friendly we had to to hone the skills necessary to coexist with EVERYBODY – the communists, the Greek orthodox, the Catholics, the Muslims, the Jews, the atheists, the Yugoslavs, the Bosnians, the Serbs, the Croats and the Bosniaks.
When your process something through 11 different filters, it’s guaranteed that you get extremely purified essence.
Such a subliminal training enabled me to understand where the US government is making mistakes, where and why the Arabs sin, what’s wrong with Turkey and Ankara, why there is the schism between the Sunnis and the Shiites, why the Israelis and the Palestinians cannot get along and why Bosnia is paralyzed as society right now.
Do you know why Jamal Khashoggi was killed?
Because the Saudi royalties just couldn’t cope with his arguments that they are not perfect, that they sinned many times, that they grabbed the power not belonging to them, that they aren’t understanding and implementing the faith correctly, that they cannot separate the essence of faith from their ancient local culture, and that the mass murder of many civilians from Syria to Yemen is directly opposite to the key principles of faith.…
19
@Kenan Porobic
"Such a subliminal training enabled me to understand where the US government is making mistakes, where and why the Arabs sin, what’s wrong with Turkey and Ankara, why there is the schism between the Sunnis and the Shiites, why the Israelis and the Palestinians cannot get along and why Bosnia is paralyzed as society right now."
Care to elaborate on the above a bit?
Agreed about the reason why Khasoggi was murdered with sending a clear message to dissidents everywhere as an added bonus.
Thank you for the heads up. I was wondering what Erdogan's angle in all this was. In addition, it shows that the real power is the UAE and if they want to throw their charismatic little "reformer" with a Caligula like streak, they will.
2
When are we going to get full naked disclosure from the Turks about what happened to the Armenians and what is happening to the Kurds from Turkey's wannabe Sultan?
5
Sounds like Mr. Erdogan's shakedown of the Crown Prince is stalled.
3
The pot calls the kettle black.
4
@R. R., that may be true, but I can recall many instances in my lifetime when America has not been entirely truthful.
1
Enough already. If Turkey has audio/video of the Khashoggi murder, then turn it loose. What are they waiting for?
8
@Kurt Pickard
Turks are still reading Trump's book. They want to maximize their cut (no pun intended) of the $110B Trump wants from the Saudi's. Welcome to the new world of Trumpism.
1
Forty eight hours should give the Turks time to finish doctoring the tapes, I suppose.
4
"But President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, keen to maintain good relations with Saudi Arabia, has until now mostly held his tongue."
Which should tell everyone the same thing about Erdogan, El Trumpo's quibbling on this topic does about him.
The choice is black and white. This is pure evil in our faces daring us to do something.
We either take a stand against it or we don't. Whatever we choose it will mark us out as good or evil just as this torture/murder has the no longer so well hidden from Americans, truth about the Saudi's.
If Erdogan were engaged honestly here the only thing to do is demand all actors to include the prince be turned over to Turkish prosecutors. Using such a crime as a tool to gain benefit is nearly as sick as the crime itself. They dismembered a living man to inflict the most terror and pain possible.
12
Sad.
One can't help but believe the Saudi's knew they could get away with this heinous murder simply because they know they've got "send 'em more guns for our American jobs" Trump right where they want him, which means Trump won't 'doth protest' too loudly. The guns and ammo will continue to flow, and the newly emboldened Saudi regime, thanks to their partner in crime, Donald J. Trump, will continue on their nasty little behind-the-scenes war games with anyone who dares cross them, with impunity. DJT and MBS- two peas in a pod.
Clue in- It's not the Iranians we need to fear. It is MBS and his regime's complicated but very real off the books relationship with his fundamentalist ISIS fellows.
Not so unlike our own current American dilemma- with DJT.
14
@RLC There goes the United States, the country the whole world used to admire.
1
@Joanna Stelling...The Whole World? What world are you talking about?
This is Trump’s “I could murder someone in the middle of 5th Ave. and no one would care” moment. Now we have an actual murder and Trump has to decide where he stands. So far he has said every variation of a response - chose the one you like the best (it looks more and more like a “chose your own adventure” presidency). He provides a false rationale of not wanting to sever a $100 billion dollar arms deal with the Saudis as reason enough to pretend to believe MBS lies about the murder, even though the accurate sales contracts to date are $4 billion. The guiding GOP motivators are Power & Money, with those Ends Justifying any Means. Virtually ALL Trump/current GOP actions can be seen in that light, including excusing murder.
24
With the fall of the Ottoman Empire, first the Europeans and then the Americans tried to impose their own order upon the Middle East.In the 20th Century oil was the main source of wealth that kept foreign interests entangled in the business of that part of the world. But the middle east has been, and still is, crippled by religious and tribal feudalism that prevented the people of the region from enjoying all the benefits of civilization. The people of that region, whether in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Palestine, Lebanon, Israel, Turkey, Egypt and North Africa will continue to suffer autocratic rulers until they can reject tribalism and religion in favor of humanism.
14
@RLW
The world needs a cadre of free journalists, free from the threat of being murdered, to move the world to humanism.
1
@RLW, humans are only doing what Nature would have done, pushing population northwards towards Europe, from North Africa and the desert.
Efforts to destroy free press liberties went mainstream with Trump. This would never have happened without his enemy of the people rants. Trump is the enemy—it is clearly the other way around. I write this on my phone in a voting line spilling out the door, waiting for the polls to open. Blue Wave!
24
Mr. Erdogan, as vicious as you may be in thwarting Turkey's democracy, and trampling on human rights and a free press, what gives you the right to hide vital information of what really happened with Jamal Khashoggi's fate? If you have the information, as we suspect you do, release it know, so Trump's complicit silence on the malevolent Saudi Prince's order to kill can be broken. Justice demands it!
14
@manfred marcus
Well said but he is not that much different a man than El Trumpo or the prince. Khashoggi was his personal friend and he is still using his horrific torture/murder as a bargaining chip.... Don't get your hopes up that we will ever see unambiguous proof.
4
@magicisnotreal Quite frankly, we need no further proof beyond a reasonable doubt what happened. We just want to nail our dedicated liar and crook, shameless Trump, so he'll be exposed to the world as the worst ever president on these United States, whose abuse of power knows no limits, given the cowardly hypocrisy of the G.O.P. protecting his misrule. Trump's complicity with assassin Salman is being sealed as we speak, 'business as usual' it seems.
Oh good grief..this prince, that prince...we need to stop referring to these people as royalty. Actually no one under the age of five need ever be referred to, in public, as a princess, prince, king or queen. It's absurd. Let all the various families keep their money (for the time being) but let's stop this fairytale charade.
Royals all over the world are people whose ancestors grabbed power and held it over others. They NEED to look very good in order to perpetrate their myth of status but let's not aid and abet them in the media.
36
Including the House of Windsor. People are starving the UK while they provide multimillion pounds worth of security to a princess on her wedding. Also who cares if meghan is pregnant. Non whooped te do. I have always wondered about the royals: they make a big fuss early about the pregnancy..what happens if they miscarry or have a stillbirth.
2
Whatever Erdogan says will reflect the result of negotiations with the Saudis. He's no doubt got a very strong hand to play and will play it well. The degree to which actual hard evidence is released will reflect the strength of the great differences between these two major Islamic players. Are we to hope for sufficient Saudi intransigence that Erdogan gives us the full facts? Or shall we see for example, some relief eventually emerge for Qatar? Major financial injections for a financially challenged Turkey? A lot may depend on how well such things can be hidden or credibly represented as to arise for other reasons. Meanwhile you wonder if any of the world's major distributors might see an opportunity in publically shunning the Saudi resource. I'd pay more NOT to burn a product that props up the House of Saud.
14
One of the casualties of Donald Trump's "presidency" is our nation's moral authority. Once he is gone, we will need to come together to Make America Great Again.
33
@ChristopherM
MAGA = Morality Against Greed Again.
4
Trump has made it clear for all nations: Economics trump human rights abuses, murdering dissenters, and other crimes against their people. Do whatever you want as long as we can sell you something.
The US does not manufacture weapons, so the pending Saudi $100 million dollar weaponry purchases will also enrich his arms dealing supporters. Makes one wonder just how much Trump has invested in the industry.
15
None of these rulers can be trusted. They are not our friends. They are playing three dimensional chess while Trump, Pompeo and Jared are playing tiddlywinks.
How the Arabs must have laughed at Trump after his speech to the assembled sheikhs.
At least we won’t seeing any more Trump sword dances. The Secret Service won’t let him get anywhere near a Crown Prince with a sword.
28
Erdogan must have finally realized he's a very weak link in the International Mafia Robber Baron/radical religion Good Old Boys Cabal.
He must have finally realized they make promises with no plans to keep them. Sharks eating sharks. The Mafia way.
WE THE PEOPLE - average people around the world must wake up and stop them NOW. WE are the only ones who can/will prevent the WW3 they have planned.
16
Given Erdogan's past, can anyone believe what he says. Remember Gezzi Park - Erdogan assumes more and more power to himself in his road to be the new Sulran of a revived Ottoman Empire.
As for the tapes - he has had plenty of time to edit and doctor the tapes so thus they may well turn out to be nothing but another Erdogan ploy to gain power in the region.
View anything Erdogan says or does with deep suspicion.
7
@judyweller what past is that (you meant american and Trump past) when USA tried to taki him out with Gulenist backed coup detat? Erdogan was elected every single time with over 50% of the vote thus he is not what american propaganda machine in Washington tells us.
1
@judyweller
But believe the Saudis?
Remember 911!
15 of the 19 highjackers were Saudis.
And about Trump's hidden genius Jared Kushner, the butchering MBS brags, "I've got him in my pocket".
It seems to me that the UAE and KSA's campaigns against "election-minded Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood" is directed more at the "election" part of that phrase than at the "Islamism."
7
It's been obvious from day 1 that Turkey has been trying to blackmail MBS. It's nice to finally see even a veiled reference to this in print. It's been obvious that the Saudi's have been refusing to pay. It's likely that Erdogan, with his 48 hour warning, has upped the asking price. It's quaint to see people believe that only a full and independent investigation will reveal the truth. The truth is already obvious. All of the "players" are dirty. We knew they were all dirty before Khashoggi's death. The only surprise left in this story is who will play Khashoggi in the movie. Harrison Ford and Jared Leto are shoo-ins for King Salman and MBS.
12
I hope he does put it all out there. Then the Saudis and the Trump administration should have some explaining to do. Mr. Khashoggi deserves justice and so does his family. The world and America need to know just what happened here and who was involved in this horrendous murder. This is another low point for Donald Trump.
21
Although the murder of one individual is atrocious, why is the press ignoring the killing of thousands in Yemen. The Saudis are responsible for this, as is the US who sells them their weapons and thus is complicit. Perhaps if they had names we would care.
38
@R. L. Pour the press is manilupated by Washington; there is silent censorship as journalist (most of them) are too weak to get their stories and depend on washington to serve them info which is often propaganda and not accurate and if they dont write their way, washington doesnt allow them any info which in fact is censorship democratic way
1
Trump and Pompeo both have been involved in a cover-up, and as a citizen of the United States - a democracy - one that my father fought for during WWII, I want to know what Trump knew in advance of this gruesome murder and why the UN wasn't the one called upon to investigate this.
50
It’s interesting that Nikki Haley offered her resignation letter the day after Mr. Khashoggi went “missing”from the Saudi consulate....
4
I would never have believed that I would find myself rooting for an authoritarian such as Erdogan, but that time has come.
Strange days indeed.
33
@WillyD Learn what authoritarian is firstly; someone who wins elections with over 50% of vote is cleanly elected official unlike in the USA where we have corruption involving billions of dollars with elections with money lobbying (clean sign of corruption not democracy)
4
Authoritarians can certainly be elected.
4
Turkey is not even remotely comparable to Saudi Arabia re women's rights, elections, income distribution, secularism, etc. if we have to choose, we must choose turkey.
Regardless of Erdogan's motives, it is good to see someone prepared to make a factual statement about the circumstances surrounding the death of Khashoggi, rather than the ever-changing stories coming from trump and the Saudis.
9
@say what
Hold your horses. Erdogan talks a big story but
why wait 48 hours to reveal the truth?
Is he taunting the Saudis with a deadline to sweeten some "deal" he has with them?
The world should be hammering the Saudis...
They admit they killed him, no provide the body so the family may provide a respectful Muslim burial.
1
Lets not forget how Erdogan forced saudis into admitting the murder, after saudi FM interview with fox turkish newspaper claiming one of the hit squads while in the consulate called personal assistance of Crown prince, it seems they have a lot of evidence, does't wanna reveal their intelligence methods but they are blocking every excuse from saudis they deserve credit for that.
14
@SMJ Turkey the last Country to believe. Ok not the last bit close to it
I think the withdrawal of Iranian Oil from the world markets on Nov 8 and the supposition that the Saudis will be able to fill the gap is the underlining fact in how we deal with the Kingdom.
13
@miked
Illuminating comment. Thank you.
The American government and American media are also main players alongside Saudi and Russia and the forces trying to destroy Erdogan and any supporters of democracy in the region.
6
Erdogan's 48-hour delay serves to milk the story for all possible impact on the Saudis. When he does this, it gives it another 48 hours of suspense and speculation and political pressure on the Saudis. The last thing Erdogan wants is to resolve all the questions and then move on.
Even in 48-hours, I'll bet he starts to dribble it out, not dump it all. He'll stretch that to a week or more.
This story tells a very different version of Middle East relationships than the NYT has been carrying.
It tells of the Saudis as UAE-style hardliners, with only a rich-man's reform. It highlights their crushing the Arab Spring and democracy.
It tells of Turkey as a continued supporter of the Arab Spring of of electoral-based reforms. True, they want a particular Muslim Brotherhood version to win, but it is electoral and a much broader based reform.
It tells a story that does not turn on Iran. It has very different issues, intra-Sunni issues, not Sunni vs Shiite.
Erdogan keeping this story going has had an impact on this story too, not just on the pretensions of MBS to be a reformer. I'm sure he is using the story to its maximum, Trump style, to dominate the news cycle with what he wants to talk about.
24
@Mark Thomason
No doubt Erdogan is strengthening his power with this high stakes chess game.
To get a chance to shame the Saudis and Americans (by association) is power
@Mark Thomason I double-checked that author. Mr. Kirkpatrick wrote one possible reason for 48-hour delay "The value of the Turkish currency has plunged under the burden of debts built up during a long building boom, and the oil-rich Saudis might quietly help prop up the exchange rate." What do you think??
Since this charade of outrageous denial by the Saudis, aided and abetted by the Trump regime and his thugs, and with the behind the scenes quiet urging of corporate and military interests, began, I've been waiting for someone to drop the other boot, and expose the nearly successful Saudi and American collusion in covering up this heinous murder of a decent human being by an age old family of despots, all of whom regard the rest of humanity as their subjects, to be used, and abused, purely for financial gain.
It appears Erdogan may drop that boot, and in doing so he will not only expose the abomination the House of Saud is, but also expose the House of Trump, his gang of thugs, and the corporate interests running this nation.
Evil may seem to prevail, only briefly in the scheme of things; truth and Justice always win.
56
@Mel FarrellYour absolutely correct about Trump and the corporate interests running this country though I hope you realize that if the Democrats held the Presidency the same thing would happen. We really need a third party. Better to die doing the right thing than act like this nation has been acting for years. We even may surprise ourselves.
3
I have never subscribed to that trite cliche: what goes around comes around. Rarely true
If you read the on line app for the BBC they have an ongoing series about the holocost and WW II. Clearly with the multimillions killed just in WW II, if you consider not just The Allies but the holocost losses and the Soviet losses this proves there is little justice in this world. For financially secure people in Canada, USA, and Europe and little ilets around the world you do find people who live to an old age and die in their beds. But when you measure that against the 7.5 billion people in the world, no, not true. In today's NYT digital edition, photo of woman with dead fetus which she lost because pregnant workers have no rights unless granted by generous employers. In Canada employers would be up against Human Rights unless you live in fascist Ontario and trending fascist Quebec.For most of the world, life is cheap.and dirty. i.e. In USA, Bus load of black seniors dragged from a bus on their way to vote. Thousands of absentee ballots destroyed.
@Mel Farrell The Sausi's will execute a few people and claim they were responsible. Apologize for such "barbaric" behavior and everyone will move on. Erdogan is only doing this to get something bigger. He does not care about a journalist from the WP. Lets all get real. Something else is going on
Do you really think Erdogan, of all people, would let something like friendship stand in the way of his parlaying evidence of Khashoggi's murder into some huge benefit for his country and most especially for himself?
Both Turkey's president and our own have repeatedly demonstrated they place no value whatsoever on truth, humanity or the free press. Indeed the only things in play here for ANY of the players are wealth and power. So the conclusion of Erdogan's game of Clue will, virtually by definition, be some variation of "Colonel Mustard in the library with the candlestick"--regardless whether the crown prince did it in the embassy with a bone saw.
15
@Steel Magnolia
I believe Erdogan will give MBS a last minute bailout in return for a giant monetary favor that solves Erdogan's enormous economic problems.
3
Anybody supportive of the tyrannical regime and “special relationship with Saudi Arabia” is definitely on the wrong side of the history.
Everything was served to us on a silver plate. Just connect the dots!
The 9/11, the never ending war in Afghanistan and Iraq, the polarization and division of America, the Russian meddling in our elections, the killing of Jamal Khashoggi…
Even the little birds in trees know that Saudi Arabia was behind the terrorist attacks. The Kingdom provided the radical Wahhabi ideology, the leadership, the members, the training, the financing and the perpetrators.
Only because of the “special relationship” with the Saudi regime, the White House decided to invade Afghanistan as if the locals were responsible for the Saudis infesting their country ever since the CIA brought them over there in the eighties to root the Soviets out.
Just remember our frustration with Kremlin meddling in our elections recently. Now imagine the Arab frustration with the foreign government interfering into their democracy over the last 75 years and saddling them with the worst regime in the world.
We cannot defeat the terrorism without ending the special relationship with the Kingdom.
Jamal Khashoggi was cruelly butchered only because he demanded true democracy for the Arabs.
Whose side are we on?
122
@Kenan Porobic: Afghanistan had been a sleepy mountain kingdom living in relative peace (relative) until 1973 when the King was over thrown while out of the country for a medical procedure. This set in motion a continuing state of war and instability that continued right through to 2001.
Even in 2001 Afghanistan retained the agencies of it's former stability in the loya jerga - a sort of assembly of tribes and the King living in Europe. When we conquered Afghanistan in 2002, we flew in the King so he could ceremonially hand over power to our guy and a presidential system that was not organic to the country. So instability continues.
After nearly 30 years of instability, the moral authority of the King was at an all time high. Had we the decency to return the nation to its original organic agencies, a King with the Loya Jerga, it would be a peaceful quiet kingdom again. Well maybe ir maybe not, but it was far more likely than the hamfisting a presidential system into their midst.
The GOP has an atrocious track record of handling the end of wars. It back out of our countries commitments at the end of World War I (the league of nations) in Europe. That lead to an unstable world. It then oversaw the economy into the Great Depression. The combination of events lead directly to World War II. They did a similar thing after the Cold War leading to a reactionary Russia to our current day.
Sad Realities:
1) Erdogan wants to be the next Ottoman Emperor
2) MBS wants to be the next Ottoman Emperor
3) The US doesn't care who the next Ottoman Emperor is as long as they don't side with Russia or China...
4) None of the US, Russia or China will care about the Ottoman Empire when the oil taps run out
Meanwhile, a man was executed in his own Consulate on foreign soil and political intrigue is the only interesting story.
34
@WDBK: the Ottoman Empire controlled Palestine (including Isreal) from about 1517 to 1917.
Middle Eastern rulers have historically proven themselves to be untrustworthy, deceptive and conniving. I suspect Erdogan has zero interest in human rights and justice, and maximum interest in squeezing the Saudis to his personal benefit.
21
A simple autopsy should answer the questions surrounding Mr. Hhashoggi's death. If there is perfidy on all sides, perhaps we should leave the Middle East altogether and devote our efforts to restoring good government in Latin America, starting with Honduras.
7
The Saudis should be sanctioned and our relationship with them reassessed. However, Turkey is playing a dangerous political game. They are using Khashoggi’s assassination to try to alter the balance of power in the Middle East. Erdogan and Turkey are allies of Iran. Iran and Turkey are two of the most repressive regimes in the world and a destabilizing force in the Middle East. They are neither friends nor advocates of human rights or of a free press. As we sanction the Saudis and press for reform, let’s keep that in mind.
18
Having some real knowledge of these countries, having been to Turkey with many friends from Iran, I disagree. Turkey is much more tolerant than Iran, but Iran is much more tolerant than Saudi Arabia.
20
@Illinois Moderate
I have lived and traveled across the ME and agree with Illinios Moderate. Btw - there's no way MBS wasn't involved (imho). Every decision and order comes from him. The notion of a rogue operator or 15-to-1 man brawl is laughable.
@Jeffrey Zuckerman Turkey is a democracy buddy, he gets elected democratically and it is not a repressive regime stop believing american propaganda which is high especially after they failed to eliminate him two years ago by backing Gulenist sect
1
Erdogan has imprisoned and likely killed hundreds of journalists. His motives in the Saudi murder of Kashoggi are clear. Power and money. He is a despot who could care less about the murder of a journalist.
25
Clearly he has arrested many journalists, but your accusations that they have been killed are speculative...where is your evidence ??
1
“There obviously was a tremendous mistake made,” Foreign Minister Adel al-Jubeir said on Sunday.
I think most of the world agrees with this statement, but believes the "tremendous mistake" was the King appointing MBS as Crown Prince.
31
I think President Erdogan is tired of seeing Trump in the limelight so he set up drama for Tuesday. All the eyes of the world will be on him as he takes a chapter out of Alfred Hitchcock's book relating a macabre event.
5
@Wayne
They couldn't write this script for tv. No one would buy.
“Obviously, there’s been deception and there’s been lies,” the president said in an interview with The Washington Post. “Their stories are all over the place.”
He omitted saying "... and who would know about that better than me?"
When you show the world that YOU live in a fact-free universe, people think they can feed you a line and you will accept it.
Would any prior administration even appear to have given credence to such lies?
38
There are lots of factors being overlooked in this story:
1. Mideastern countries have proven to be almost impossible to become Western style democracies. The global community has to play the cards that have been dealt and not operate out of fantasy. As horrific as the Khoshoggi murder had been, is there any comparison to the horrors in Syria or Libya?
2. The Saudis have to be allowed to save the monarchy as they see fit. There is an international right to self determination. If murdering citizens in foreign countries is a standard then Putin, Kim Jong-Un and several others also need to go.
3. The weapons sold by the West are pointed at Iran, that vastly outnumbers the Saudis and were only 5 miles from their border during the Iran-Iraq war. Perhaps as a bargaining chip, the Saudis could agree to end military action against Yemen and the blockade against Qatar.
4. The US and other Western countries are complicit with the alleged oppression of the Saudi people for the past century, so it’s time to dismount the high horse.
5. Destabilization of the monarchy would lead to global chaos, and the Saudis know they are too big to fail so regime change or succession change is off the table.
This is a great opportunity to right many wrongs with a chastened government and crown prince. A realistic response that benefits the world is needed.
22
@James Hamje
"Perhaps as a bargaining chip, the Saudis could agree to end military action against Yemen and the blockade against Qatar."
Khashoggi's death should result in something positive. He would approve of the above.
America should also request MBS be replaced by a more moderate ruler.
And Trump should relieve his son in law, Kushner, of all his White House duties due to the consistent bad advice he has given Trump since elected.
1
One cannot help but wonder who else might benefit from Mr. Erdogan's 48-hour notice.
US intelligence and 'intercepts,' whatever they are, seem to know an awful lot about who came to Turkey, when and how they arrived and how closely they are related to Saudi leadership. Ours should be loudest voice calling for an international inquiry at the UN, except, of course, our chair is empty due to a puzzlingly spontaneous resignation.
In the mean time our continued willingness to endorse whatever incredulous scenario is floated about what happened to Mr. Khashoggi implies either an astonishing naivete or a Machiavellian desire to close down the story.
15
@tro -nyc
Reveals that MBS has compromising information on Trump or maybe Kushner, (who Prince MBS claims he has in his pocket)
The slow emergence of variation in the story surrounding the murder of Jamal Khashoggi has rightly raised a strong wave of outrage. What is missing in the debate is sanguine consideration of what action world leaders may take.
There is talk of restricting arms sales, something which vested interests and perceived risk of replacement by some nations are likely to render ineffective. That alone is not a reason they should not be implemented though.
However, there is a simple action that will have direct financial impact on Saudi Arabia and provide a signal top the Saudi ruling elite that their behavior does not entitle them to participate on the world stage.
The New York, London and Frankfurt stock exchanges must, or be instructed to, refuse to list the shares of Aramco. Simple, direct, and material. Let us not allow the squeals of the investment bankers, who are the only group that would benefit, from nations taking bold, effective action.
43
@John Macdonald
But if the only "punishment" is financial sactions, and maybe some murder convictions of the "rogue" Saudi officers, then Khashoggi's murder will become a forgotten affair.
Punishment needs finance a global human rights institution that guards the freedom of journalists to speak truth to power. How this would work exactly, I haven't a clue.
Canada and Turkey - anyone else with the courage to take on the Saudis? And Iran is painted as supporting terrorists? The US is just another hit squad for the Saudis.
142
@Barbarra
What ever happened to the law suit filed by the families of 911 victims against the Saudi government?
Mar 29th 2018:
"US court rules families of 9/11 victims can sue Saudi Arabia. A US judge ruled that the plaintiffs had 'narrowly articulate a reasonable basis' to proceed."
http://www.thejournal.ie/relatives-911-victims-can-sue-saudi-arabia-3930...
The Saudis' explanation is insulting and should be dismissed with: "How dare you insult our intelligence with this drivel?"
But if the Saudis, who have arrested some of the fifteen-strong assassination team, persist with their story, expect the defendants to argue self-defense. "When Kashoggi entered the room, all fifteen of us feared for our lives."
42
The tragic death of Mr.Khashoggi is playing out in the tawdry politics of the Middle East.There are no truth tellers there.Every strongman is jockeying for power and prestige and will do anything to gain some slight advantage.They all have such disregard for the truth that journalists are their prime target.It is possible that MBS thought that Erdogan would overlook the death of a journalist and that Trump, who constantly criticizes the "fake news" would likewise be amenable to dishonest excuses.Journalists have faced unique dangers during this past year.
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It will be fascinating to watch on Tuesday as Mr. Erdogan reveals his intelligence services sources and methods.
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In terms of brutality there is little to choose between Turkish leader Erdogan and other brutal dictatorships in the Middle East. To a degree I empathise with Trump because strategically the Saudis are more important than the Turks, and I suspect both regimes are equally predisposed to murdering opponents.
Erdogan is progressively moving Turkey to become a religious dictatorship not dissimilar to the repressive regimes in both Iran and Saudi Arabia, and he is playing the game as hard as he can in order to generate some concessions from the Saudis in view of Turkish economy becoming a basket case under his repressive regime.
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what has happened to humanity and morality in today's world?
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@Michael Richter
They've always been figments of your imagination. There is neigher humanity nor morality in international relations -- just state interests.
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@Michael Richter
They still exist in abundance, among the world’s peoples. But less and less in Government, maybe due to the corrupting influence of corporate interests, which continue to become exponentially more powerful.
Why do Trump and Bolton want to pull out of the nuclear treaty with Russia? Because it limits the amount of money to be made in weapons manufacturing. People crying for businessmen in government rather than civil servants have created the perfect storm for the amoral hijacking of our moral value system by those who serve the bottom line, only.
Vote ‘em out, if you can.
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@Michael Richter: Morality, ethics, values, what have you, are a middle class characteristic: the rich don't need them and the poor can't afford them.
In 2015 the middle class went below 50% in the U.S. for the first time in decades, perhaps nearly 70 years. Politics & media has followed this trend. When the middle class was above 50% the GOP campaigned as the champions of values and morality. Now they give us Trump. On an international scale, the Middle Class is represented by countries like Canada, 1/10th the size of the U.S. in population and GNP - so the Middle Class is under represented on the international scene and with it, morality, ethics and the like.
You want ethics, vote for a broader distribution of bargaiining power, which will in turn deliver more income to more people, which in turn will expand the Middle Class back to majority status, and when that occurs. morality will become more important again.
Politics - and personal animonisities especially in that part of the world make strange bedfellows.
Qatar - if given a chance - could turn in a dime - against Turks - if they push an Arab Sheikh too hard.
Turks support Qataris because Turkish contractors are getting big contracts in run up to the World Cup.
When relations between countries descend into a personal name calling - who knows what will happen.
Remember our POTUS and the little rocket man. Now, they are in love - if POTUS is to be believed.
I reject comments below blaming our POTUS for not being decisive in isiolating this Kingdom. While, as they say, a bowlfull of spicy cashews may be good while drinking with a beer - it can lead to some extreme discomforts.
Remember the old man Bush - cautioning his aides and fellow Republicans - after the fall of Soviets - "let's not go about gloating." - much disliked admonition.
Erdogan is no saint - he is reviled in his own country. He has taken his country in a direction that most oppose - this whole sale Islamization of it's government is condemned by many.
Remember our American pastor was held in Izmir - perhaps, the most anti Erdogan city where Ataturk is revered for his secular stand. Erdogan was sending a message to Izmir - as much as this pastor.
My hope is thuis will soon pass - for what it was - a botched rendition of a turncoat.
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The only difference between the heinous murders ordered by ISIS leaders and MBS with his 15 man hit squad is a "royal' title and money.
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MBS operates with the same standards as rulers in the 1600's when it comes to the hoi polli who criticize his regime. No one would be any the wiser what occurred except for technology which captured the video information and perhaps some bugged recordings. How would the world react if there was no oil to be had from this tiny little country? It always comes down to money, doesn't it?
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"...election-minded Islamists..."? As in a democracy?
Isn't that what we uphold and champion?
Our claim to superiority?
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A dead journalist, a dismembered body, the Prince
didn't know !!!
Hello Mr Trump: this one's too big to hide and too complex for even you to spin.
Do your stories about body slamming and fake news create the conditions where autocrats think it is ok to kill and incarcerate journalists?
Note the paragraph: "but any arrangements to limit further damage will surely come at a higher price
now that the royal court has so mismanaged its
previous statements."
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All these big powerful states, playing disgusting games of whack-a-journalist while claiming moral outrage are opportunists for their own gain. Turkey, Trump and Saudi Arabia do not consider, for a second, that this mans life was worth anything. They play games that diminish their country’s decency whilst thinking they are winning something, but we aren’t blind, we see them against the light of truth and honesty and the intractable values that Khashoggi died for: we will find the truth in all matters and we will condemn you if you lie to us.
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They don’t care if you condemn them. They would relish your disapproval. Decency is no longer valued.
I began reading this piece thinking Mr. Erdogan reveal as to the truth that the Saudis Arabian government ordered the savage murdered of Adnan Khashoggi, wow he was doing the right thing. Finally a head of state performing an act of decency, he was 'taking the high road.' Then this paragraph;
"One possibility: The value of the Turkish currency has plunged under the burden of debts built up during a long building boom, and the oil-rich Saudis might quietly help prop up the exchange rate."
Of course, as always the acquisition of money and the thirst for power it employees rules all decisions from our shores to the shores of foreign lands. In the 21st century money is king, and the value of human life takes a backseat.
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MBS could shoot someone in Times Square and Trump would still vote for him.
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@Rosie I am awaiting evidence that any of this drops Trump even further in the polls. Nothing yet.
Further evidence that Trump has perfected the long con as described here http://opinion-nation.blogspot.com/2018/10/liberation-from-trump.html
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@Philip Mc
The evidence you mention will become obvious on election day.
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It is the duty and responsibility of the Turkish president to tell the truth about what happened to Mr. Khashoggi and expose their lies. After all this crime happened in the Turkish soil.
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@Shim, technicslly, the Saudi Consulate would be considered Saudi soil. Nevertheless, your point is well taken.
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@William Shelton disposing of the body would have involved moving the body out of the consulate so there would still be a crime in Turkish jurisdiction.
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@William Shelton
Totally agree with you. Mr. Bone Saw's (MBS) initial comment when interviewed by the Bloomberg said that he left the consulate after one hour or so. The truth is that yes, he was taken out in pieces.
I remember a time not very long-ago when Erdogan supporters here in the U.S. were loudly cheering on his flotillas against Israel.
Where are these self-styled "progressives" now when ordinary Turkish people would like to a see a few flotillas launched in his direction?
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Erdogan is not being moved by rivalry with the crown prince of Saudi Arabia. I think Russia and Turkey were working to destabilize US geopolitical status in the region through the scandal. The US needs to appease its US constituency (particularly its base, for poll-sensitive Trump) and maintain the Saudis in the “friends” list. Big task!
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@Irene Ri
I disagree. I think we ought to ditch the Saudis, their oil and their money.
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Turkey has hated SA for decades. No love lost there. But certainly Russia has motives as well.
One human rights violator calling out the crimes if another is a twilight-zone-ish. Mr. Erdogan is nothing but a dictator. But had Turkey not shone a spotlight on this, the story may have disappeared already
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I don’t like the fact that the US is married to an authoritarian regime. It is just a fact of life that the Saudis provide us with military bases, intelligence and economic dealings for which the US has no clear alternative.
Except scoring strategic victory over Saudi Arabia, the Turkish president Erdogan would hardly reveal beyond what's already known to the world about the brutal killing of Jamal Khashggi at the hands of the hitsquad sent by the Saudi Crown Prince MBS. It appears that the tragic death of Khashggi instead of arousing genuine concern and accountability demands will rather end up with several cover up stories by the perpetrators or the tall claims about knowing the truth by those who place strategic interests above the loss of a life of a bold journalist.
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What are the odds that, despite all appearances, the Turkish president is actually a decent human being who is disgusted at what happened?
That this would be a rather strange, implausible and unusual development says a lot about the state of the world today.
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@Philip M Erdogan is very decent; improved Istanbuls economy then improved Turkeys economy by 20 times over; improved internal relationship with kurdish population; allowed more openess in religion where if people want to be more religious they can imrpoved relationship with many countries such as Serbia, asian countries Iraq etc etc its not his fault that he keep son winning elections
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The odds are about a gazillion to one.
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@kakorako: Can a private citizen put up bill boards with pictures of the shroud of Turin on it, (necessary because Islam teaches that Christ wasn't crucified and that graven images are wrong - except in the shroud the graven image appears to have been made by god or nature, depending upon your point of view) encouraging Muslims to convert to Christianity? I don't think so. Erdogan is a political hack just like all politicians. His embrace of Islamism ensures that Turkey will not be part of the EU for any foreseeable time - certainly not in my life time.
Surely there is little doubt that Erdogan is playing this for all its worth.But we are lucky he is there to prevent a total coverup.But what is breathtaking -- even surreal --is the Saudi Foreign Minister's comment:“Our condolences go out to them. We feel their pain.”
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@T.R.Devlin I wonder how much of this is because he knew the victim. Impunity is a property of authoritarian governments and they tend to back each other up on that.
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TR Devlin, it’s like “thoughts and prayers”, i.e. a meaningless slogan designed to give the appearance of caring.
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@T.R.Devlin
Actually, I'm glad he said it. It was such a blatant insensitive lie, which further dishonors their victim and now his family. It reveals just how coldhearted they are and how far they are willing to go to attempt to cover up their evil and corruption.
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