We note that when Canada's foreign minister protested to the Saudis about the illegal jailing of a female dissident in Saudi Arabia and they responded by cutting trade ties and ordering Saudi students studying in Canada out of the country we received no moral support from NATO countries or from the USA.
Although the response from Trump and the USA was expected, the lack of support any comment from Britain, France or Germany was disappointing.
Also, and conspicuous by its absence,was any support from Israel, a country who was so adamantly supported by our former conservative prime minister that Arab journalists were throwing shoes at our foreign minister. Harper's support for Israel also cost Canada a seat on the UN Security Council.
Et tu Brute?
Garry Ramsay
5
And when the Saudi government executes some of the “out-of-control” hit group, keeping up the appearance of royalty innocence, their blood will be on Trump and Pompeo’s hands. The price of oil has become every bit as tragic as blood diamonds.
6
"President Trump still seems inclined to buy the kingdom’s lame denials." Of course he does, because everyone knows that if somebody very strongly denies something, it's impossible for them to have done it. It works for Putin, and it works for the Saudis; why we don't base the American justice system on this principle is baffling--it would be a huge money and time saver. Instead, it almost seems like we expect criminals to be lying when they strongly deny their crimes.
2
Where is the liberal outrage on the Syrian civil war.
Posters are attempting to blame Trump for what another county supposedly did and not waiting for investigation to be completed.
Estimates of deaths in the Syrian Civil War, per opposition activist groups, vary between 364,792 and 522,000. On 23 April 2016, the United Nations and Arab League Envoy to Syria put out an estimate of 400,000 that had died in the war. UNICEF reported that over 500 children had been killed by early February 2012.
1
A thoroughly corrupt regime enabled by our desire for secure cheap gas. What exactly is 'Saudi Arabia' without petroleum? A house of cards regime with an approaching due date.
7
Canada has been at war with the Saudis for three months. It is a 21st century war and it is about values and ethics. Canada objected to the silencing of truth and the jailing torturing and murder of journalists in August and no shots were fired but we are at war and Saudi Arabia has repatriated its nationals living in Canada and returned our ambassador. The Saudis have turned out to be allied by the USA. Quelle surprise.
1
I rather doubt that Trump is much troubled by the thought that Khashoggi may have been gruesomely murdered. It's not that he doesn't believe it; rather, he likely just doesn't care. Trump declared war on non-sycophantic journalists and journalism some time ago, and as far as he's concerned, one less journalist is another step forward to Trumpworld. He must be incredibly annoyed by all the fuss over what he sees as a non-issue.
5
The message Trump is sending our country through his terrifying denial of this heinous murder is twofold:
Money matters more than a human life, and
Journalists are in mortal danger for speaking the truth, and that's of no importance to him at all.
5
We have a lot of sociopaths involved in this on both sides of the ocean. Unfortunately, that seems to be the path of the ignorant masses, who vote for them, or allow them to remain in power. The history of the nature of the human animal is sadly towards, evil, in the form of murder, war, etc. Those who must live under all of this suffer in more ways than one can imagine. We are seeing it play out in living color, in the 24-7 news cycle. It is interesting, that those with the most conscience in all of this, were those who were the first ones to pull out of the," Davos in the Desert Conference" in Riyadh. Those that hesitated, tells you everything you need to know about evil, money, and power.
1
Something the U.S. government can do that is pragmatic and will begin to reassert our moral leadership: Work to secure the freedom of writers now imprisoned in Saudi jails, like poet Ashraf Fayadh. If the U.S. can get Fayadh's release and grants him asylum, City of Asylum pledges to welcome him as a writer-in-residence, providing him a living stipend and a home to live in.
Ashraf Fayadh is in prison in Saudi Arabia, with his life sentence for so-called blasphemy "reduced" to 8 years and 800 lashes. He is the recipient of PEN Canada's "One Humanity" award.
5
Trump's embrace of the Saudis' attempts to cover up and deny what happened, and Pompeo's subsequent cheery demeanor with the Saudi royals, suggests something more horrifying than the murder itself. It suggests that Trump, Pompeo, and others in the administration are actually happy to see an authoritarian despot torture, murder, and dismember a journalist who reports unfavorably about the regime. Given Trump's consistent characterization of the American press (other than Fox News, the official Trump media outlet) as an "enemy," and his overt admiration of authoritarian dictators, it's hard to avoid such a conclusion. Perhaps Trump even (privately) wishes he could get away with murdering dissident "enemies," just like Mohammed bin Salman and Trump's best buddy, Vladimir Putin.
4
Where are those members of Congress who should be yelling to the rooftops about this? Every single congress member who is mute is complicit. Vote them out. Democrat or Republican.
This flagrant heinous act by MbS should not be condoned by Trump, Kushner, Pompeo, or Coates. MbS knows he would never have gotten away with this with anyone else except Trump.
MbS should be tried by an international judge. And he should be dethroned. The fact that Trump and Kushner have personal monetary deals with him and his regime should be a moot point. Trump and Kushner need to eat the profit loss for humanitarian values.
But, they won’t.
I’m disgusted with this situation.
2
Let this be the tip of the iceberg. If only the world would rally around the other things going on in this country. And something the worldwide uproar ignores--the war in Yemen, the worst human crisis today.
In a way, I am grateful for Trump this time. He was, for a change, refreshingly honest about the US-Saudi relationship. Trump was pretty clear, they give us money for military equipment, we like it. All previous president engaged in timid finger wagging about human rights abuses, to then say "oh and by the way, here are the bombs you ordered." At least Trump didn't pretend to prioritize something else while making deals with the devil, he called the relationship what it is, good business.
When Trump calls the the press, the “enemy of the state”, he sends a signal to leaders around the world on acceptable norms.
Trump’s rhetoric has real consequences. We are naive if we believe the Saudi’s did not take his rhetoric into account as they planned this ghastly murder.
It’s all fun and games until journalists start dying.
2
My deceased cousin had a saying: “Americans do not care selling their mother if big money is involved”. This horrendous crime to a champion of democracy should no be left without punishment. Mr. Trump, please act following the moral values of this great nation!
2
Here is a case where a crime is hiding in a cultural hedge. The koran specifically permits a believer to lie to anon-believer if is in the best interests of Islam. What the prince says to trump or anyone else doesn't matter. It's okay.
As far as trump is concerned anything that makes him look good, like a big deal for increased arms sales, is also okay.
So, trump glosses over murder in order to sell more weapons that will inevitably result in collateral damage and the deaths of still other innocent men, women, and children.
He's evil and the people who support him and complicit in his deeds.
2
Remember a short time ago when the US was an ally of France, Germany, Canada and Great Britain ? Now in 2018 it's the US, North Korea, Russia and Saudi Arabia.
4
The President believes the Saudis are telling the truth. I am sure Trump is in no way influenced by the $100 million paid to Ivanka's charity less than 2 years ago. But Uranium One, that's a whole different story.
2
Our incredibly naive President. When will his fans wake up?
3
The payment from Saudi Arabia of $100 million to the State Department couldn't have anything to do with Trumps thinking, could it?
1
Good luck. The loose cannon will continue to fire, always missing targets.
1
Has anyone who listened to the tape said what the torturers were trying to get Khashoggi to say? I haven't run across anything in my reading.
Why is there no outrage about President Trump's consistent "enemy of the people" denigration of American journalists? Why isn't he being held to account for his dangerous rhetoric in light of a Saudi journalist, working for a United States news outlet, disappearing and likely murdered by Saudi state actors? It's time for the President to be shamed for his outrageous attacks on freedom of the press - here or around the world!
3
Stand up to murder; stand up to the press being called "enemy of the people'; stand up to news media being called "fake news". It allows Saudis and others to get away with murder and allow despots the World over to feel more confidant of enslaving their people. The idea that "it happened over there; can't happen here' is an illusion. In a few years; Trump could be putting any of us in cattle cars or behind barbed wire. It could happen here. Ray Sipe
2
Trump will not get away with this. The public is not going to allow our nation to become complicit with assassins. Vote like your life depends on it.
3
Also watch as “outraged“ Republican step back in line with total support for Trump adding their own spin as to the greater good which by the way I believe they may actually say in those words. It’s that crazy kids! Whatcha gonna do? We should all resist this crime family. The only U.S. president in history to for that description.
1
Everything about the Evil Kingdom and it's religious and cultural inclinations are ALL lies and falsehoods. Bob Marley's words are ringing true... " you can't lie to the people all the time..."
2
Surely Trump sees absolutely nothing wrong in MBS so brutally eliminating, intimidating, and incarcerating his critics, and only wishes that he could do it too.
1
From the people that brought us 911 ..... What a great ally!
2
Prince Mohammad bin Salman death agents are clearly practiced.
Ah! When torturing and dismembering their prey, the Prince's agents, in this case, the head of forensic evidence, Salah al-Tubaigy, advises headphones, "when I do this job, I listen to music".
Trump says that Khashoggi may have been killed by an interrogation gone wrong, or by rogue agents. Pompeo hastens to Prince MbS palace, practices his chinning and grinning, assures us of an investigation...by the Saudis, whose very death agents were involved.
President Trump and his administration appear unperturbed. After all, Mr. Kashoggi was a journalist and Trump has encouraged violence against journalism. He has greater concerns such as arm sales with the Saudis. Oh! His real estate, too. Jared has interests with the Saudi's too. This lot is a disgrace.
3
The Saudis just wired $100,000,000 to the US for some deal from last summer. Literally blood money.
1
We knew that Trump had no respect for:
Thou shalt not commit adultery
Thou shalt not steal
Thou shalt not bear false witness
Add to that list:
Thou shalt not murder
4
I think Donald wasn't at all concerned about the man who was killed. He was worried that the death of this Turkish man would destroy the sale of American weapons to the Saudis and he wouldn't get his share of the money. Did he not read in the NYT and see on TV how another, very recent, sale of our weapons caused the death of many young children from Yemen? Does he even care? And why the heck are we selling our weapons to other countries when we should know that these American weapons will only be used to kill innocent men, women and children? Does he even care?
2
Trump is always playing the American people.
2
That Khashoggi only died as the result of an unfortunate interrogation mishap is an ingenious rationalization. It ties the hands of any US moral indignation, since the US has much interrogation and rendition blood on its own hands. A very convenient solution in the service of the big money.
1
Kavanaugh and MBS are equivalent, says our most notorious liar. For once, he's (unintentionally) right: to anyone who's been paying atttention, they're both guilty of what they've been accused of. Trump could put himself in that group.
2
Mr. Trump wants to see the evidence before admitting what is already certain. This is just posturing which he is using to condemn the civilised world and avoid condemning beastial tyrants who he admires.
When the evidence is made public, look for Mr. Trump to declare it fake news.
This moral transgression, a sin as evil as man can imagine, will be overlooked by Evangelical Christians. They have made their own bargain with satan. And this horror is the result of an evil man leading immoral people in making America despicable in the eyes of God.
3
Trump is just jealous he cannot do the same.
He has a list.
2
Trump and Kushner need Saudi money to keep their businesses afloat. Torture and murder is just the way it goes, business is business and profit Trumps human rights. This is just the way these men do business. They are ruthless, uncaring and inhumane. Let's see what the evangelicals think of this grisly murder. Where are all the big money preachers now? Not a peep from them to be heard.
Our nation will carry the scar of the Trump/Kushner adminisitration for a long time to come. We need to put a serious check on these people in November.
2
How will President Trump respond to the alleged murder of Jamal Khashoggi? (Select all correct answers.)
(a) "Who knows who did it? It may have been 'rogue killers.' It could have been lots of people. Journalists have lots of enemies. It could have been some 400-pound guy living with his mother in Hoboken. Who really knows?"
(b) "So what's this all about? Journalists get killed all the time. I could kill journalists in the middle of Fifth Avenue and I wouldn't lose any votes."
(c) "Khashoggi knew what he was getting into. He shouldn't have criticized the Saudi leadership. He wouldn't have had any problems if he hadn't become an enemy of the people."
(d) "I've spoken with Crown Prince Muhammed bin Salman and he denies, strongly denies, any involvement. We met in Riyadh and fell in love. Regardless of what the 'fake news' says, we have to believe what he says."
(e) "I personally have no financial interests in Saudi Arabia. There are no plans to establish a Trump Tower Riyadh, no licensing deals, nada. I've never even been to Saudi Arabia, except in my capacity as POTUS."
(f) "The Saudi leaders get to kill journalists who criticize them? Why can't we do this in the United States? I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Press and journalists are enemies of the people."
2
So. What do we hear from Mitch McConnel? Paul Ryan? Helloooo - Congress? Anybody home?
2
The fact that these gruesome, depraved details have come to light is a feature, not a bug. The world was meant to know. MBS could have silenced Khashoggi permanently without torture and desecrating his body. The maiming and desecration was a message to other dissidents--shut up, or this will be your fate too. MBS was canny enough to realize that the Trump administration wouldn't or couldn't get too worked up, we'd forget soon enough with the next outrage but his critics would get the message loud and clear.
1
Come to the Grand Opening. Book your rooms or buy your condo now at the Trump International Hotel and Towers, the new jewel of Riyadh. Opening soon.
1
These are just the sort of folks that Trump admires.
1
For those of you old enough to remember Sgt. Schultz from Hogan's Heroes a half century ago may I recommend Mr. Trump for the Sgt. Schultz "I know NOTHING" award. But then again all the Saudi's did "strongly deny" any involvement.
2
But remember, MBS is OUR tyrant...
1
When Obama bowed to the Saudi King, Fox News lit up in outrage. Now Trump appears to be assisting the Kingdom in trying to cover up a murder. Fox outrage? Naw......
The answer to the whole mess is for the US to get off fossil fuels.
2
Saudis can resolve the matter just produce the body or body parts of Khashoggi. Then a second forensic pathologists can clear up the cause of death and torture if any. Or, give us Khashoggi's current address in the cloud.
1
Trump is ignorant in foreign policy. He compares Kavanaugh's presumed guilt to the Crown Prince's presumed guilt. Really? Pompeo, Trump's buffoon, smiles and nods to the King and the Crown Prince to paper over what cannot be hidden- Khashoggi was tortured and killed at the behest of MBS. Once-upon-a-time the United States stood up to the world for human rights. No more.
2
Actually, with the passing of each 24 hour news cycle the Saudi’s clumsy, incoherent obfiscations are getting pulverized into desert sand. Prince M.B.S. is turning into Prince P.N.G., as in persona non grata. His forced exile onto a $400,000,000 yacht would certainly not be barbaric fate that poor Mr. Khashoggi was forced to endure. How is this regime distinguishable from ISIS?
2
You ask for a credible account of what occurred? What ? Your eyes and ears do not provide you with what happened! We are to wait for plausible denial from the Saudi government !
1
Not quite sure how you commit to a "thorough" investigation AFTER you've slapped a fresh coat of paint over the alleged crime scene... perhaps President Trump can explain that to us...
1
What specifically did The King of Saudi Arabia despise most about Khashoggi's Washington Post revelations and is the International PRESS going to continue exposing what this brave journalist was reporting? ...Or did the Freedom of the Press disappear with the death of Kamal Khashoggi because its easier to blame Trump ?
And now we witness what happens when an amoral president is faced with a moral dilemma.
1
Crumbles, withers and dies, it doesn't matter at all. Trump lies, and the GOP nods its head while our world standing goes up in flames.
Why is it that the Times gets so worked up about the murder of one man by Saudi Arabia, yet it routinely ignores the ongoing murders of so many people by the Iranians, and continues to endorse an agreement that would only further enrich and empower the mass murder mullahs of Iran?
So I guess the US should now invade Iraq.
2
This isn't hard to figure out. Oil. Oil. Oil. Since the 1910s, a full century, the US big money - Standard Oil, in those days, i.e., the Rockefellers - has cast its eyes on Mideast oil, particularly Saudi oil. And ever since WWII, when the British Empire became the Pax Americana (haha), the US has sold its soul for Saudi oil. House of Bush, House of Saud...
As for Pompeo, he's blinded by the Bible, so any enemy of Israel's biggest bogeyman, its enemy Iran, is his friend. No matter how much blood on its hands.
1
Khashoggi's murder is being condoned by a rogue administration.
5
I must say the optics of this article really disappointed me. The cartoon is disrespectful and just reinforces the wrong belief that the currently most maligned religion is the purveyor of bad things. Make caricatures of the Saudi government/royal family all you want, but the religion is beyond reproach because it is also followed by people who had no connection to this atrocity. It doesnt add anything to the article, is not even related to the content, and just seems unnecessary and quite hurtful to millions of innocent people around the world. To put it in words that most people would understand, this is akin to putting a swastika next to a Bible verse on the banner in the cartoon. The two DO NOT belong together, they are mutually exclusive.
Please reconsider publishing unnecessarily inflammatory content. NYT is the rare bearer of sanity in an increasingly insane world.
It’s official: Trumpmhas no problem with the decapitating, hands chopping, and brutal regime of a wealthy nation.
Uncivilized, ruthless brutality. It matters notmtonTrumpmif he can earn business from the bloodthirsty brutes.
2
The longer this nonsense goes on with Trump, and now Pompeo, the more I think that Trump, Kushner, etc knew about this ahead of time and just didn't care. Their first reaction is nothing happened. Then when they can't go with that idiocy anymore, the guy is not a citizen do we shouldn't care. Now, they're moving into gaslighting, don't believe your lying eyes. They're not going to be able to hide from this ghastly act.
2
Are you disgusted, embarrassed, enraged by The Trump family and their current entanglement with their good friends, the Saudi Prince and his esteemed gang? November 6, people! Write it on your hearts as well as on your calendars, and get out there. VOTE!
4
Your sub head should read:
Evidence mounts of a ghastly crime in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul. President Trump still lying and promoting the kingdom’s lame denials.
3
Saudis caused 9/11. Who can trust them after that? Oh yes, American Presidents. Exhibit 45
4
We need to cut and cut clean all ties, all support, all coddling of Saudi Arabia and keep America great.
The Butcher of Riyadh -- BOR -- a k a -- MBS - should be brought before the International Criminal Court for his crimes in Yemen, Syria -- and his role in the dismemberment of Jamal Khashoggi.
Once it is clear that MBS is out of the line of succession, rapprochement may begin, slowly.
1
Riyadh should have been destroyed in 2002.
2
The difference between being a man of business and the president of the United States is one can afford to be in bed with murdering thugs, and the other can’t. Or at least that’s how it used to be. Just rack up another one for the League of Dictators. Putin, Kim, Crown Prince, and oh yeah, the leader of the MAGA movement. Is that how it’s done?
2
Khashoggi was no dope he knew going into the consul was stepping on Saudi soil.Why did he do it ?? How did they know to have the henchman ready ??? Was the so -called fiance a setup to get him to show up for so -called marriage legal papers???? Trump is acting like a fool (once again) and it seems his whole administration is going along sending the Sec of state to help develop some kind of reasonable out, is a disgrace to the USA. Just a terrible situation handled in a cowardice way. Just outrageous !!!
2
President Trump again has shown the world what a weakling he is. The Saudis brutally killed a permanent resident of the US. All he can do is send his foreign secretary, who like a servile envoy only can report that the Saudis will investigate. A murderer investigate his own murder? Trump made himself a fool, earlier this month he was laughed at during his UN speech. Now he has shown the world that he is more than a laughing stock, he is the village idiot. And the Saudis treat him as such.
3
Trump is profiting and making millions from the Saudis, Emoluments Clause be damned. Follow the money.
2
Please we as a nation have covered for the bad behavior of the Saudis in the middle east , and Bush gave them a" look the other way " card during the 911 attack when most if not all the terrorist where saudis ,and the majority of the funding for the attack was provided by Saudis and those fact where redacted in the 911 committee report .
3
It seems there are no limits to trumps amorality.
3
Turkey is not buying the Trump MBS attempts to whitewash the Khashoggi murder. It appears that now it is a quest by Turkey's Erdogan, an avowed Islamist to wrest the mantle of Islamic power from Saudi Arabia. MBS's recklessness has given Erdogan the perfect foil to project himself and Turkey as responsible leaders. The drip drip drip of leaked Saudi Arabian complicity has put the latter on its back foot. Turkey will drag this out for as long as it takes. The question is how long can Saudi Arabia hold out.
Remind me--who hijacked the planes on 9/11? How many Iranians were among them? And what acts of terrorism has Iran or its agents taken against us since the embassy takeover (in which no one was killed)?
Yet the Saudi's, sponsors of Al Queda, ISIS, and numerous other terrorist organizations are our friends (just because they somehow got our oil under their sand).
And Lindsey Graham, paragon of moral relativism that he is, will express moral outrage until he figures out that it's in his interest to express something else.
4
If this had happened under President Obama, how would he have responded? My guess? There would be stern condemnation, a dance of who did what or who knew what, maybe even a vague oblique apology, then life goes on with Saudi and United States being buddies.
If 3000 killed at 911 didn't shake this relationship, why would 1 journalist?
The killing should be condemned and there should be outrage and consequences. But let's not mistake this as something uniquely Trump. This is one situation where it is the foreign policy of this country to be close ally with Saudi Arabia, whether or not Trump personally benefited from this relationship.
1
Trump is correct, he is not covering for the Saudis. He is providing absolution and approval. There was never any doubt that the coverup would eventually crumble. Now, let's see if Graham and the rest of the right wing Trump ring kissers in the Congress will actually do something about this.
1
Watch the Today Show aired this AM ... it is on youtube. They discuss Trump's former and present investment through his business with the Saudis. In fact, they list them one after another. Anytime a person does not defend the right, always follow the money.
3
His fingers were cut off while he was alive. Most civilizations at the least afford their farm animals a more human death than what Kashoggi got. Consular official Mr. al-Otaibi asked that the gore be taken outside. Clearly, Trump thinks all this is OK because the Saudis are buying a lot. Now what do we suppose Trump is willing to overlook for his own income from Russia and Saudi Arabia? The answer may well be, anything.
3
Could this be leading to the impeachable offense? The family is too entwined to act for the good of the Nation. What _will_ they do?
3
When Trump says "who knows?", he means "I don't care, do you?". The "values voters" in the Republican base also don't care, and they won't care about any depravity committed by this administration, until the GOP breaks the economy.
5
If Jared Kushner is "too precious" to be questioned by press -who was clearly identified-shouldn't he be preserved behind glass and not in a public Presidential Administration.
2
Why would the Turkish provide us with their evidence given trump's record of sharing with all his friendly dictators. Israel shared intel about ISIS and trump handed straight over to the Russians. People probably died after that intel came out. Turkey may not want to have any agents identified for their safety and don't trust trump to be discreet. Would you trust trump with any information? I wouldn't.
3
Important ally? I'd say connections to the 9/11 Twin Towers attack by radicalized Saudis, numerous war crimes in Yemen (supported by the U.S.), "disappearances" and incarcerations in the kingdom itself would begin to preclude our continued reliance on Saudi Arabia as an important ally, wouldn't you? I am well aware of "realpolitik" and its often odious overtones but this brazen action in a foreign country, no less, is beyond the pale for any civilized country. I promise you that there are more personal, financial and perhaps "kompromat" reasons involved with Trump's unwillingness to do the right thing.
2
Why on earth would we want to sell $110 billion dollars worth of arms to a government that does this kind of violence? Why aren't the media or leaders questioning the madness of that proposition.
4
This is the what the USA has become and will continue to be until Trump leaves the White House. We better figure out how to beat Trump in 2020 because the GOP Senate will definitely not impeach Trump no matter what Mueller's report happens to reveal.
Trump has already bought it. He is now trying to sell it to the American people and the world.
1
What is the point of saying that "Mr. Trump’s aides, members of Congress and allied leaders need to insist that he take the lead in demanding that Saudi Arabia acknowledge what really happened, and why it’s terribly wrong"? OF COURSE it's terribly wrong, but is there any chance that his aides or Republican leaders will actually do this, or that Trump cares what "allied leaders" think about anything.? Experience tells us that, at the moment, urging Republicans to do the right thing is a true waste of breath.
1
The Trump administration will take no meaningful action against their Saudi friends. One reason is financial - both personally and due to those big defense contracts. The more troubling reason I feel is that Trump really doesn't have that big of a problem with what happened. Oh, he can say it was "very bad" and say there will be a consequence. If that were true, he wouldn't have sent the smiling, jovial Mr. Pompeo to see the King. He would be consulting with Congress, and would have pulled in the Saudi Ambassador and then expelled him until they came clean. And once they did come clean it should have been made clear there will be sanctions, no arms sales and other penalties. Instead, Trump will make excuses and gin up another diversion. Trump is a strongman in waiting - he likes these kinds of guys - and that should be of great concern to every American.
2
Oh, come now, are we really so surprised that Washington’s response is, to say the least, tepid? Mr. Trump probably wishes he could have the press so easily disposed of in our own consulates and government buildings. He has favored strongmen and tyrants for their tactics and ability to brush aside criticism (and critics), an ability he so desperately wishes he could have.
4
More than 37 years ago, the Iranian hostage crises ended.
Twenty years after the United States was at war in Vietnam, diplomatic relationships were re-established, notwithstanding the loss of more than 58,000 US soldiers in the war.
Trump tells us that the North Korean dictator love us, despite failing to dismantle missiles and denuclearize.
Iran has the ability to produce 3.9 billion barrels of oil per day.
If we could normalize relations with Vietnam, we can do likewise with Iran; moreover, Iran does not have N. Korea’s nuclear abilities.
If we had normal relations with Iran, we would not have to decide if Saudi Arabia can impose economic blackmail against us the way they did in 1973.
Trump is allowing Saudi Arabia to dictate our foreign policy. I fail to see how this is making
America first.
12
Pompeo went to discuss smoothing things over so the financial arrangements could proceed. Judging from Pompeo’s bonhomie, it went well.
The easiest route is for the crown prince to stay in place and deny any participation. Then Trump can simply ignore the whole matter, and business is as usual.
A minor issue? Saudi reform won’t happen.
6
The death of Jamal Khashoggi and, if true, the manner in which the death occurred is shocking to those of us immune from such practices. That this man was a journalist of some sort also sends a horrid signal to those attempting to bring factual truths to others. We cannot blind ourselves to the culture in that part of the world - it's not the same as in NYC. Maybe those who remember the lynchings of innocent people in the South for "crimes" that were blown out of proportion have a bit of a feel for that type of culture. There, crimes are punished with removal of hands etc. and many of our cherished freedoms are just dreams. That MBS is young, handsome, charming and articulate with a desire to open the economy and allow some reforms does not mean that he is a gentle soul, dedicated to liberty and justice for all, or, that his society would be willing to go along with the changes he proposed. Perhaps, he looked at Russian and French history and thought about the consequences of an uncontrolled revolution. Perhaps, he received bad advice about what happens if Khashoggi "disappears". Don't forget the leadership of Turkey, Syria and Iran are capable of the similar types of actions against those who annoy them. Perhaps one of those leaders encouraged this activity to unseat or weaken MBS and change Saudi policy. Key is what would best protect the US, given all facts. Also key is supporting moral, decent behavior and being an example of said to the world.
MbS has "alternative facts". It works for president Trump. Why wouldn't he assume it would work for him? The presidency of Donald J. Trump continues to debase the United States and all it previously stood for.
26
Saudi Arabia is a stretch of desert run by a family that calls itself royalty. They have been given outsize prominence because of oil reserves. It is time to turn to renewable energy for ourselves, the earth and for peace.
37
Pompeo’s meeting with the Saudis was not meant to hold them accountable or get to the bottom of anything. It’s object seems more to reassure the Saudis. Trump has got your back. We’ll get through this.
20
Mike Pompeo, straight talking tank commander and trumps newest drooling lap dog.
Exactly. Very Russian style on Pompeo’s part, very much so. CIA guy will do it for the “greater good”.
He knows about what they did. He’s a huge disappointment to America.
I looked at him as tough and smart and capable of reality checks on Trump but he’s fallen in line. Bowing to the fake emperor.
“The pictures of Pompeo grinning, smiling and laughing with the crown prince "
Mission accomplished.
"Rogue killers" laughing at all of us!
41
It is nothing new and we are protecting them from actually being held accountable for dismembering a live human being as reported by the Turkish Government and media. It would be difficult for Turkish government to provide recordings to the US as it would undermine their sources just as we refuse to provide the NSA recordings to even other US agencies.
President Trump would have known what was planned by the Saudis and he would have known as it happened if he read the daily Intelligence Briefs from Director of National Intelligence.
President Trump did not need to send the PR guy to Saudi Arabia to ensure that he would not lose any business before mid-term elections. All he had to do is to call the NSA chief to provide a briefing on the matter. Remember these are the guys who keep tabs on foreign leaders too. Saudis we know cannot be trusted to play straight anyways so we know they are tapped constantly.
The Saudis are doing these constantly in their own country and disappearance of journalist and critics is not unusual. Dismembering a live human being is not uncommon for Saudis, most ISIS are Saudis inspired and we support them.
It is past time to sanction Saudis including MBS
21
@Wizarat, that's a definition of barbarism.
1
I'll be perfectly honest, I'm unsettled by the situation but ultimately don't want to suffer higher gas prices as a result of imposing our moral authority on a sensitive Ally, whatever moral authority (or semblance thereof) that may be. As cold as this sounds, he wasn't a U.S. citizen so let's get on with the show here.
1
A wise man once asked what profit there could in gaining the world if we lose our souls. But to lose our souls for a few pennies saved at the gas pump?
63
We have met the enemy, and he is us.
1
@Conrad Noel
Very doubtful it would be "a few pennies" as we've seen gas prices over a dollar more a gallon than they are now in the past. He's not a US Citizen, and it didn't happen on US soil. We cant continue to police the world. We have our own problems here that need to be addressed. Woman and Children are raped and murdered all around the world everyday. We cant save them all unfortunately. Turkey should be handling this as it happened there.
Trump is as bad as the Saudis, and is a denier of the truth. He has been bought and paid for many times by the Saudis to cover for all of his financial deficits from yachts to real estate over the years.
There is no decency from either MBS or Trump. They are condoning the death fo Khashoggi, his torture, murder and dismemberment. MBS should be deposed, and hopefully Trump in 2020.
25
Re. Trump ... Why not now ?
Trust me, this incident has made President Trump extremely angry. Angry that he can'd do the same thing to journalists here in this country...
36
As a Saudi, to the people in the west who are outraged and anger this is incident of the killing of a famous guy, has happened in front of your eyes what do you think is happening inside the kingdom?
237
They’re killing you. Overthrow them!
5
@Neil
Unfortunately, Saudi buys Mullahs here and there and there are a great stock of US weapons and this MBS thug has no restraint in using them.
1
I shudder to think of that grotesque nightmare.
1
Just wondering if anyone else especially the members of the GOP see any correlation here? Joseph Stalin, Benito Mussolini, Idi Amin, Ferdinand Marcos, Francisco Franco, Ghaddfai, Sadaam Hussein, M.B.S., Bashir el-Hassan, Vladimir Putin, Kim-Jong Un, Charles Taylor and Trump. Just like in the case of all of the strongmen listed Trump is as close to a Dictator as we have ever had. They all share the same traits as Trump. Meglomaniac, thirsty for power, limited or no freedom of the press, liars, morally bankrupt, sociopaths, cheats, no compassion for their people, bound for Hell.
16
It is definitely deeply concerning that the Trump admin is not showing very serious concerrn about this. Given the fact that Trump has shown only a moderate reaction to this, what else can he do? Without proper investigation, The President can't draw his own conclusion like the NY Times does. Assuming the worst case scenario that the Saudis admit to this crime, does it really make sense to impose sanctions on them? Won't they run to Russia to buy their weapons? NY times would jump up and blame it on Trump for sending the Saudis to Russian arms. It seems to the liberal media is hell bent on blaming everything on Trump. It is not like TRump is behind this killing of Saudi Journalist and the media wants to make every such bad incidents is because of Trump. I bet Obama might have reacted far less severly than Trump on this incident. NYtimes didn't question Obama's inaction on Syria's use of Chemical weapons. Nytimes has absolutely no credible and objective journalistic ethics .
3
Other countries are standing up to the worst of Saudi Arabia's bullying behaviour. Why can't the US? Are you as craven as the odious 45th occupant of the White House?
27
@Angus Cunningham In a word, yes.
2
Trumps' loons and the Republican Party are drinking from Trump's toilet that is polluted with lies, deceits, and cons.
Trump stands with his arrogant smile and watches as all these brain-dead followers lap up, in large gulps, the waters the pathological liar puts in front of them at Trump pep rallies while they applaud and cheer.
Sad.
26
Read at CNN the description of what the Saudis did to Khashoggi -- recorded on audio tape. It's beyond horrible. The worst thing I have ever read. These are not even human beings. Frankly, I would be afraid to even venture outside the US. These pals of Trump make MS13 look like a kindergarten clique. These "men" should be thrown into a large meat grinder. And in the end, of course, it's the men, it's always the men who think up horrible stuff. Don't see any women conspiring to do horrible stuff. What's wrong with MEN? !!! Hah -- Trump said the Arabs not responsible. OH yes -- same thing he said about his immature buddy Cavanaugh.
16
Horrible day today learning the fate of that poor man. I find it jadingly interesting that Trump constantly pounds MS13 and people of color but finds nothing wrong with what the Saudis are doing. He is truly a morally repugnant human and a very dangerous one at that.
1
Lindsey Graham is a pathetic Trump suck up - makes noise until Mangoman tells him what to do. gross...
11
Where is the line, that if crossed, Mr. Trump's supporters will no longer support him? More importantly, where was the media during the 2016 campaigns regarding each candidate's dark secrets. Clearly this candidate had a trail ranging from foreign lenders to non-Christian behavior that somehow did not make it into any reputable news report or impact people who label themselves being "...a good Christian...". The trail of disasters was so long and so public, why should we then be surprised by the lack of moral outrage when a President states that he does not want to put American business contracts at risk by simply stating publicly, "Putin - stay out of our elections, China - stay away from our energy grids, Prince Saud - you have conspired to commit murder. Should you put foot on American soil or Turkish soil while in America, we will allow you to be arrested and sent off to a Turkish jail. " That's what happens to normal people who have committed a crime. Why then are we making any exceptions to this? "Just follow the money."
6
The only people Trump would keep from America are the non - white and the Poor and weak and those yearning to be free. I think that Trump and his Regime have murdered the American dream.
1
Why would Trump take any action? He may get kicked out of the exclusive autocrats' club.
9
There is a lot of moral outrage being voiced in a lot of these comments. Unfortunately, moral outrage is a very slow, ponderous and incomplete way to balance the scales. Just look how long and what it took for this country to remove slavery from our shores. The genocide of the American Indians has still not been balanced. The Saudis have a belief system that says some people are less than others (why have a king?). The majority of Whites believed Blacks and other people of color were inferior (many still do). So beating up on the Saudis may feel good, but history says another thing: power prevails. Trump is just willing to say it without a pause. Make America Great again is about power, so this is exactly what Americans voted for.
It's perfectly legitimate to question Erogan's motives in this slowly unfolding horror. But now we also have to question Donald's' and Jared's and Steve's -- and the rest of our own, newly minted royal family.
I am trying hard to retain the ability to be startled by this putrid administration, but it's a struggle.
20
I'm going to make an outrageous suggestion. Like many concerned people of all political persuasions, I am frightened and horrified by the polarization in our country. Vigorous arguing only intensifies the polarization.
Therefore, I suggest an idea. It has two precedents.
First... The United Nations laughing at a particularly "funny" statement made by our president. Most possibly he really was going for a laugh line.
Second... (By far the most significant. You can find answers to our serious problems in children's nursery rhymes.) How about The Emperors New Clothes? When anyone of any political party makes a polarizing or "incorrect" statement we respond by laughter. Commentators on all sides should give up the verbal attacks and just start laughing. We can all laugh together at the absurdity and it will bind us together. I AM NOT KIDDING! Ha Ha ha.
5
Sadly, this is going to be another storm in a teacup that will have no impact on American politics, except perhaps to normalize murder of dissidents. Trump supporters are not bothered by this in the least. They are praising Trump for putting arms sales profits ahead of this little thing called ethics. Many other Americans can't even find Saudi Arabia or Turkey on a map, let alone care what is going on in those countries.
8
We looked the other way after 9/11. Why would this be any different?
18
In 1914 the death of one man, the Archduke Ferdinand, lead to the deaths of tens of millions. Is the death of a dissident "gadfly" worth going to war over? Why are willing to disrupt any progress with the most powerful player in the Middle East over the death of one of their own citizens? What can we do about it anyways that won't hurt us even more than the Saudis?
For those of you who feel Every Life Is Sacred And Must Be Preserved I can point you to a few underpasses in your area where there are poor souls that you can actually do something about saving.
1
It’s not the death of one citizen of another country that’s important here. It’s the idea that we’ve chosen as an ally a country capable of such a gruesome and despicable act.
Why is it that Trump otherwise always defaults to his "tough deal making art" with China, Mexico, Canada, NATO, North Korea, Palestine, etc., but then for some reason is all soft and cuddly with Russia and Saudi Arabia?
Follow the money. For Trump, the world is divided into those whom Trump has not yet shaken down, and those who have already shaken Trump down.
10
Trump bent over backwards for Putin because he has wanted to be his friend and invest in Russia for years. He is doing the same with Saudi Arabia. These are not American interests, these are his business interests and he is putting those ahead of American security. This is neither good nor proper. Please, someone, impeach him. Thanks.
10
@Barbara Snider Alas, impeachment gains nothing if there aren't enough votes to convict...and there aren't as of now.
Perhaps it has been said, but other countries will see that all it takes to get away with murder is to go into business with the Trump Organization. Once they tie their fortunes to House if Trump, there is nothing that they can’t do.
This seems so obviously that it’s almost as if our Founding Fathers thought of up this scenario and wrote it into the Constitution...
4
This is a real international crisis for our country under the current president. The US needs to suspend our participation in the major investment conference in Riyadh next week and Sec of Treasury Mnuchin needs to cancel his trip.
The president would be wise to consult foreign policy experts like Henry Kissinger, George Schultz and Condoleezza Rice on the best way forward in dealing with our long term complex relationship with Saudi Arabia.
Certain American interests and many American values are in conflict here. We need to stand up for our fundamental values of freedom of the press, respecting human rights, and justice, and they need to be made very clear and prevail.
5
One must keep in mind, aside from Trump's mercenary transactional approach to everything including foreign policy, that Pompeo is a an extreme conservative Christian. He therefore harbors a disproportional support of Israel as a biblically mandated mission. As Israel's obsession is Iran, Pompeo's foreign policy stance is anti-Iran, so he will tread lightly on Iran's foe, Saudi Arabia. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Politics and bedfellows = ethics and morality out the window. I don't think the current talent level in the administration is capable or trustworthy enough to navigate this minefield with sufficient integrity and effectiveness. But then, what does Trump care? America is just a pot of money to him and his cronies.
7
Trump’s comments mirror his own guilt in every thing he says and does. Start from there and everything falls into place. And I’m not even a journalist.
2
How long until Trump starts having people assassinated? There are likely numerous right wingers in the CIA and FBI who would oblige him. Even if he doesn't do that, he assists already, making him complicit in assassinations, which is the same as if he had done it himself.
2
The way Trump's people used Pompeo as a prop is appalling. He should be dubbed Secretary of State Mike Propeo. And shame on Pompeo. He should have refused to go and then should have resigned on principle. What happened to Congressman Pompeo who would have railed at the administration for sending the Secretary of State on an acquiescent mission to abet the Saudi cover-up of an unspeakably heinous act?
2
Lest any of us forget, the terrorists who committed the unspeakable acts of September 11th were Saudis. For all of their wealth and modern technology, the Saudi Arabian religious establishment (as well as their monarch) are still dangerously reactionary, archaic and ruthless. Attempting to "soften" this barbaric assassination in the interests of oil and weapons business relationships with MBS is a particularly craven and soulless approach by our President.
7
Will Mr. Trump be so blasé about this when the Crown Prince gets angry at Jared? It could happen. In for a penny, in for a pound.
2
It’s money and power. First the money via the unprecedented 110 billion fighter jet deal. Trump Kushner family biz will get their investment money as in quid pro quo corrupt diplomacy and that will be routed to Trump, Kushner biz via a maze of existing American companies Saudis have biz with. It will be so convoluted it won’t be visible. Which get to my hope that the DOJ, FBI and Mueller have their eye on Saudi money in play in the US and in secret campaign donations and related illegal activity. When they murder someone in the their consulate building so obviously then there will be holes in their other crimes. Second to this is Trumps adoration for absolute power of murderous dictators, monarchs and regimes. He’s a mad hatter child running amok in play land, His cover and the GOP, Pompeo rationale that the greater good are the defense jobs covering his crimes is ridiculous.
They all disregard all moral, decency and Constitutional law, criminal law. We are watching a crime syndicate from the White House to our enemies with disregard for America, Americans and the free world.
5
Here's something of interest dating back 15 years from Vanity Fair:https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2003/10/saving-the-saudis-200310
Lindsey Graham tells the Saudi People to get rid of the Saudi Crown Prince. Saying that he has to go. Is he forgetting that Saudi Arabia is a monarch and not a democracy? IN other words the King has absolute power.
On the issue of the killing of a journalist here is a question? Embassy's are considered that foreign soil of that country. Mr. Khashoggi knew this yet he still went in to sign a divorce decree, why didn't he have a lawyer bring him the paper work?? My point is there is more to this story then whats being printed.
As long as our corrupt POTUS has business ties to the Saudi government, the US won't hold them accountable. Face it, morality is dead in the US. trump killed it and he is complicit in this man's death.
6
On Aug. 18, newspapers across the USA coordinated the publication of editorials against Trump's attacks on the free press.
The NY Times should coordinate with news organizations across the world to publish editorials that condemn the murder of Jamal Kashoggi, assert the importance of a free press, and condemn efforts by autocrats to silence criticism.
3
Trump isn't "buying the lame details," it's obvious he ok'd the murder before it happened.
2
How can Saudi Arabia chop up a Washington Post journalist, hold at bay any investigation for 2 weeks, bring in the bleach chemicals and clean up? Can’t the US Ambassador to Turkey get involved? What-there isn’t one. Well what about the Ambassador to Saudi Arabia. There isn’t one there either? Gimme a Break. Calling off all guards to kill journalists and America is OK with this?
13
Trump and co. don’t want to know. They don’t want to see any tapes , they are fine with the Saudi using their playbook deny deny deny. A slap on the wrist and move on to next headline is the most likely outcome. Carte Blanche for autocrats and murder.
1
I think you mean they want to PRETEND they don’t know.
Will you please, PLEASE use your newfound investigative zeal for uncovering Trump financial malfeasance to investigate the Saudi money that has flowed to Trump and Kushner family interests since his election? And will you please splash it across the front page ASAP?!
And doing so before this November’s elections might, just might absolve you of your anti-First Amendment failure to do any of this basic journalism into the Trump crime family BEFORE the last election. Hurry up!
6
Saudi Arabia is not an important ally of the US any more than Russia is. They are a major ally of Netanyahu and like ilk, what one calls an opportunist, unreliable ally. Time for the King and his insane son to be stripped to loincloth and sent to wander the desert.
What is ironic is Erdogan is not much better.
3
Barbarians in our midst. Trump favorite allies and the ones he visited first in his presidency to kiss their hands are the same people who sent 19 terrorists to fly into our buildings and kill 3000 of our citizens in the name of Islam, my birth religion. These Trump allies the Saudi kings and princesses are as close to Islam as Trump is to the truth.
New York Times confirm they cut mr Koshaggi, the Saudi journalist, fingers because he dared to critisize the Saudi dynasty, the most corrupt dynasty on earth. Then they cut him up and carried him back to the land his masters desecrate every day in the name of Islam.
These are barbarian and evil people that fear the pen of a peaceful journalist as Trump does. How low can this coward of a man go just to enrich himself off their ill gotten wealth. Corrupt feeds on corrupt and evil feeds on evil.
May the almighty God save us from both of them soon because if they get there ways we will all loose.
13
amen
3
Business, business, business, business,...
2
If Your looking for "tiny"..... to speak up for human rights...…….dream on...…….he's just a" bagman" for the numbers racket...…….
2
15 of the 19 9/11 hijackers were Saudi, and the repercussions are still reverberating YET Americans never confronted this so called ally......what makes this one butchered journalist any different? Americans wake up, the corporatist have taken over a long time ago.......
4
The Saudis supported Bin Laden and 911. The powerful Bin Laden family funded Osama their internationally educated misfit privileged miserable jihadist child. That family is vested in the US and at attack time were on Florida mostly I understand.
2
It may have been a 400 pound man on his couch who killed the journalist. Right? We don't know.
2
Nothing surprising in Trump's acceptance of the Saudi's word of not being involved or that Trump is promoting the "rogue actor." It is one of his patterns. After all, he took Putin's word that Russia did not interfere with the 2016 election; it might have been some 300 lb. guy in China. If he refuses to believe the conclusions of our intelligence services, what is the likelihood of him believing Turkish authorities?
4
now trump says the us want to see the tapes of the murder if they really exist... does that mean he will see to it that they do not exist... it‘s all so frightening...
3
When is enough enough? Trump is participating in covering the government of an extremist islamic country for the murder of a journalist because he wants to sell them weapons that will very likely, over time, end up in the hands of terrorists. This should be the end of the road for him but then again, we've said that so many times before. This scandal will no doubt defuse too and, what is worse, the GOP will fight off any significant midterm losses. No way but down from here, I'm afraid.
4
It seems likely that the Saudi agents did lure this journalist to their consulate, seize him, tortured him, and killed him simply for what he was saying. OK... Saudi Arabia is a totalitarian state whose government and elite has promoted Islamic extremism and terrorist organizations all over the world. So no surprise there.
What I find shocking is that, knowing the above facts, a US Secretary of State would show up in Saudi Arabia for a smiling photo opportunity with officials that Pompeo probably knows were behind this reporter's kidnapping and murder. One is used to shameful behavior from Trump's henchmen... This goes way, way beyond being shameful.
7
for the millionth time: Capitalists will do business with anyone who lets them make a decent profit. Whether it's a military junta, theocracy, monarchy, or a communist government(China); capitalists and governments run by such people will do business with them. Democracy, human rights, free press: all window dressing; a side show just to keep the stupid public in line thinking they have a say in things and have equal rights. The general public are more like chattel, like sheep. So who cares about one measly, pesty "journalist"? Billions of dollars and so-called Job creators" matter more.
5
If true, this US must take action to sanction those responsible in the Saudi regime but the relationship with Saudi Arabia is remains crucial to US policy in the region - as a strategic counterweight to Iran, in stabilizing oil prices, in countering Wahhabi-sourced terrorism and in any peace process between Israel and the Palestinians. Before this incident the NYT was vocal in support of the reforms set in motion by Prince MBS and now it appears the blinders have been removed on the brutality of this regime. I think there's a little Casablanca going on here with all the pretend shock and dismay (esp. Senator Graham). A little RealPolitic is required here - the regime in Iran is equally or more brutal with dissidents and journalists. We can condemn this but we need to move on with our relationship with Saudi Arabia.
Please allow me to get this straight. Rogue Saudi's marched into the Saudi embassy undetected, tortured killed and dismembered a Saudi citizen undetected, left the embassy undetected and made their merry way undetected back to their home country. Makes sense to me.......
5
@Randy Howland
Yes. Why is that surprising? Does the embassy have glass walls?
And afterwards, the embassy staff obligingly cleaned up the mess. What’s not to believe?
This editorial reflects a point of view that vies with President Trump for national pomposity. While it is perfectly appropriate to decry the torture and murder of a human being, who are we to express such outrage at the atrocity of the Khashoggi murder? Isn't our own house sufficiently in need of cleaning?
What about Zimbabwe? What about Venezuela? What about Pakistan?....
This issue appears to me to be a convoluted effort by the NYT and its Editorial Board to continue its (admittedly justifiable) efforts to discredit the current administration. It is NOT my intention to defend the administration but, rather, to point out that such righteous indignation makes the Times seem partisan and petty.
@Voyager You may be right: the NYT may seem partisan and in your opinion the article may be convoluted, but there is nothing PETTY about this matter. Seriously? Sorry. NOTHING. And this current administration is discrediting itself all by itself.
People need to wake up, get woken before it's too late. Oh, but wait a minute.... the people have no power because it is no longer WE THE PEOPLE...... how did I forget that?
“Round up all the usual suspects.”
2
Lindsey Graham?? You quote Lindsey Graham, the king of fake high dudgeon??
9
I a so sick of reading of official American horror at the death of a Saudi journalist. It would be so refreshing to read of even 1/10th the disgust when a, typically, black man or child is killed by incompetent police in America.
4
The tile is right - The administration wants to "buy" into the Saudi denials. To the tune of $100 million dollars or more....
3
Does anyone actually expect any meaningful action from donny? These are his kind of political leaders, his idols and his dream. Certainly he's not going to start trouble with his family's business associates, to whom he is likely deeply indebted. Just another day in trumptopia.
2
Fact: In a few days time, there will be an alternative, fictional storyline to all this that 40% of Americans will buy into and begin parroting.
...Which brings me to the thought that if people think life was cheap in the past, at various times and in various places, just wait and see what the 21st century brings. The 20th century, for all its accomplishments, had mass killing through warfare elevated to an almost inconceivable level. Now nationalists everywhere can send their propaganda electronically, and almost directly, into the basal ganglia of the brain of anyone remotely susceptible. Like sorcerer's, they can cast an electronic spell that releases the most vile emotions of the human ID. What Trump and the Republicans have done, in sowing this wind, may result in a whirlwind of fear, chaos, and death that no one will be able to control, least of all them...
So...um...please vote against this stuff?
5
Trump once said: "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters."
Following on this logic, apparently he feels that the Saudis have the right to murder someone in the privacy of their own embassy without losing US support.
192
@Joseph Prospero...you are exactly rihgt, as long as the Saudis don't do it in the US. but then, Trump would claim they didn't do it in the US, they did it in Saudi Arabia.
1
@Joseph Prospero Dictators around the world think that Trump has given them license to do whatever they want. Until Trump leaves office, they will test him, and he will fail their tests.
1
Can we please stop using polite terms like "an interrogation gone bad"? What happened to Mr. Khashoggi was horrific. And our morally-bankrupt Mr. Trump is playing along because nothing matters to him but money.
3
Agree. This is torture gone right, coverup gone bad.
1
The bottom line is that Trump himself is incapable of acting outside the range of his narrow self-interest. He is clearly compromised. I expect he will continue to help the Prince in any way he can to cover up this mess.
2
come on, people. the saudis spend a fortune at trump's hotel. he needs that money.
2
So, they killed an enemy combatant? We do it all the time.
@George
He's a civilian, a reporter, not an enemy combatant.
9
If we took climate change as seriously as we should, we could dump our relationship with Saudi Arabia.
4
Remember Mr. Trump's Helsinki "a very strong denial of election meddling by Putin"? Another "strong denial by the crown Prince"? regardless of evidence? Is it a lack of brain capacity, naivety, or some other disease?
2
The Saudis said they had "hidden genius" Jared Kushner in their pocket and it looks like they also have Trump in their pocket as well. Putin and Saudis both playing Trump and Kushner for fools along with North Korea. Whose next?
3
Sales of arms are a cash cow for Trump, a way to channel money into the pockets of defense corporations. Tomorrow he'll say that Khashoggi never existed. He was a Democratic hoax.
2
Just have MBS tried for murder at the US Supreme Court -- you know, "innocent until proven guilty" -- I am sure he would be exonerated by a 5 to 4 vote.
Normally, a politician would need to do math to see if the benefit of ignoring the truth offsets the cost of losing credibility.
The math is easier to do if the politician has no credibility to start with.
1
Having asked the Saudi king if he’d been involved in the Khashoggi’s disappearance, Trump said, “The denial was very, very strong.” Having asked Putin if he meddle in our 2016 elections, Trump announced that he believed Putin’s “incredibly strong and powerful” denial. Having asked Kim Jung-Un to dismantle his nuclear arsenal, Trump has been continuously denied any verifiable results, yet praises the dictator as “very honorable;” “we fell in love.”
Of course Trump is being smacked with immediate denials: Before age five, we all learn to say “I didn’t do it!” Trump surely doesn't believe these ruses, because he’s ridiculously quicker on the draw of denial than any of them. More likely, I think Trump sees opportunities to enjoy the profits of his position, yet shirk all responsibility to risk any action that could possibly damage his bottom line or reflect poorly on his image of himself – the rest of the world be damned.
Voters: People are dying in these Trumpian games!
The 9/11 terrorists lie? OMG NYT!
2
@Daniel, NYT was complicit. They haven't apologized yet nor have the Bushes' administration. Now they want to diminish the International Crimes tribunal, right before our own eyes...
2
if hitler had ordered and paid for america's airplanes, he would have been our best friend, regardless.
4
Saudi Arabia has been on the wrong track for a long time. MBS'
so-called reforms are minor. "Allowing" women to drive is something that every other country on earth has always done. Movies are not important. Reigning in the religious police is a little more important, but they should be abolished.
The war on Yemen, which has created the world's largest famine, is horrible and we got sucked in under Obama. We must get out. The total suppression of dissent-- from Shia, to women protesters to those who just differ from MBS--is really serious.
But murder abroad is something that only North Korea and Russia have done so far. Saudi Arabia needs to be similar sanctioned and isolated. No, we really don't need them.
2
Trump needs to tutor his buddy, the crown prince, how to lie more effectively. The crown prince is strictly an amateur.
5
It's obvious that Trump is accepting Saudi Arabia's lame denials of the murder of James Khashoggi because he is the world's largest producer of lame denials.
3
The Democrats are still not focusing on American issues such as unemployment, housing, homelessness, and consumer protection. Furthermore, the American Press is producing content (fake news) such as the death of a foreign journalist and sensationalizing this incident. The American president should not be concerned with the inner politics or be the judge of another Sovereign Nation. He should spend time trying to solve the problems mentioned above and not let for-profit news agencies guide him. For the most part, it seems most news agencies in America favor the Democrats and are attempting to make the Republicans appear as villains. It seems the American Press and the Democrats think the American public is stupid and cannot see past there smoke and mirror tactics. Honesty is not a trait of the Democrats and American Press in which the real issues as mentioned above are focused on and solved.
1
@frank it isn't just democrats who are horrified by what looks like our president's condoning of an ally's brutal murder of a dissident. anybody with a moral sense is outraged.
7
Anyone up for some regime change?
2
Mr. Trump just said this "investigation" should wrap up within a week. So this is the foreign affairs equivalent of the Kavanaugh investigation. Another restricted whitewash.
3
Did he bother to ask the military suppliers if they were OK with this?
I'm pretty sure companies in the US learned their lesson with South Africa, and would at least like a choice in which side they're on.
Not to mention SA hasn't spent anywhere near the amount that Trump claims.
Want to not worry about SA oil? Buy elsewhere. Push energy independence on something other than coal.
Worried about US aerospace biz? A program to boost domestic aircraft adoption might do a lot if AA, UA, Spirit, Delta and JetBlue would move to Boeing craft rather than the 1000 Airbus ships they fly... As long as we're talking America First, eh?
We can no longer ignore the reality that Trump and by association all of us in the US stand on the side of wrongdoing, corruption, immorality, and plain evil on so many issues.
2
We are going down the slippery slope fast. It is pretty clear that murder has taken place and Republicans play the charade that "we do not know." Everyone knows and pretends they do not know; too much money and interests are at stake to know and confront. And then, who cares, Trump knows. Soon, it may all hit home too. And then it may be too late. (Look at Bolsonero in Brazil, things can move down very fast that slope once they begin to roll). Very scary.
Another related problem. There is little in the press (at least in the NYT) about the tragedy in Yemen behind which Saudi Arabia is a major protagonist. Thousands dying, but individual journalist Khashoggi takes on the spotlight on the transgressions of Saudi Arabia's regime and on the kind of friends USA embraces.
One question in my mind is what is in this for Erodgan and Turkey? Normally a closed and secretive government that is increasingly hostile to NATO and the West, the Turks have been singing like canaries about this, supplying video tapes and graphic depictions of what happened to Khasaoggi inside the Saudi embassy.
(1) How will a diplomatic breach between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia be beneficial to Turkey or the Middle East?
(2) Is Erodgan perhaps expecting some American show of gratitude for his government's sudden transparency?
(3) What will now happen to relations between Saudi Arabia and Turkey? Implicating Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman seems like a quick way to frost things between these two countries.
This may be as convoluted as the intrigues and plots of the old Ottoman Empire and its Sublime Porte back in 1914.
Dear Editors: please wake up and pay attention. It's crucially misleading to say that Trump "is inclined to buy" the Saudis' denials.
He is actively helping them to cover up the murder they've committed. We know this, because as he so often does, he told us. He parroted the obviously, ludicrously unbelievable story of "rogue killers" at the prompting of King Salman.
In terms of US law, which unfortunately does not apply, Trump is behaving as an accessory to murder after the fact.
Trump long ago shattered the norms the editors are still applying to him in chiding him for not being strong enough in his criticisms. But it's not that he's not criticizing murder! He's helping them get away with it!
Your failure to take the measure of his corruption and mendacity is doing damage to the Times's reporting, and that, in turn, is hurting the country and the world.
2
"Evidence mounts of a ghastly crime in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul."
If a ghastly crime had been committed in some foreign consulate in New York, other than Turkish, by folks from a third country, would we expect the government of Turkey to get involved? Why then is a ghastly crime in Istanbul one in which we should become involved? I fail to understand.
Then again, the NY Times seems to believe that everything that happens in the world should be twisted into some anti-Trump story. I am a Democrat, by the way, who expects to vote the full Democratic ticket in November. Did not vote for Trump.
1
@Penseur
While they're at it, blame Hurricane Michael on Jared, and Trump, too. All their fault because they pulled out of the Paris climate accords.
I don’t think you get it., Trump wants to do this to April Ryan ..
5
The Saudi flag's symbol is the sword. How much of a hint do we need?
2
Dear Editorial Board,
I agree with this editorial, but in respect to those with disabilities, please stop using the word "lame" to equal "bad",
as in your subtitle:
Evidence mounts of a ghastly crime in the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul. President Trump still seems inclined to buy the kingdom’s lame denials.
Many thanks.
1. Saudis were 9/11 hijackers and MSB is doing nothing to stop further drafting and training of more terrorists from his country.
2. If America and Israel need to corral Iran, let them do it. They should not need to make deals with an untrustworthy and barbaric state to do their dirty work.
3. Selling arms to Saudis puts blood on the hands of American workers and ordinary citizens. See #2 for proper course of conduct. If Iranians, Yemenis, ISIS, etc. need to be contained or killed, according to Trump, America should do it. After all, he just expanded our military and crows it is the best in the world. Let him use his own and risk the political repercussions rather than building up and hiding behind the army of an untrustworthy "ally."
4. Trump is hopelessly compromised by Saudi money, whether it is used to buy his holdings in NY and FL or to expand his brand in the Mid-East. It is why he never should have been elected. It is why he could not care less about #1.
It is why he will never denounce this blatantly criminal act.
2
Trump is of a feather with the world's autocrats. Predictably then, he is not going to punish MBS and the Saudis for their brutish crime.
Indeed Trump is consolidating his own autocratic rule. He has already decimated constitutional checks and balances, employing lies, schemes and skulduggery at every step. Look for his next power moves to be directed at the Justice department in a blunt force attempt to quash the investigations into his many crimes.
It would surprise no one if Trump surreptitiously had his opponents murdered (or if Republicans abetted his cover-up, or if voters voted for him anyway). He is as thuggish as his role model dictators. Power and money are his core values. Any means necessary are his tactics.
1
We are no longer so addicted to Saudi oil as we were in the 1970s. The USA needs to quit pretending these loathsome "princes" are our friends. They need us more than we need them. They worship Mammon. In that, they share a religion with the Trump family.
2
@Cedar Hill Farm not true , we still import oil from them even though we have enough domestic oil supplies to cut them off. Why? continued Saudi business investments.
2
So we back the Saudi related head choppers, and have aided Al Qaeda in Syria. But the Syrian Christians back Assad. We should be backing the Christians instead of the Saudi wahabbi crazies. But the Saudis have lots of money. We have a lying, disgusting, un representative government in the United States
2
Authoritarians tend to support each other. Sorta like birds of a feather flocking...
This is why the Emoluments Clause of the Constitution is important, and why the current lawsuit by three states has moved forward. The public has no idea how much money the Trump family is making from Saudi Arabia, but you can be sure that the Trumps are making millions, and that they will protect their money sources as more sacred than laws and the Constitution.
8
Saudi Arabia, and Islam in general, needs to be brought into the 21st century. Royal families should be a tourist attraction on a strict budget, not a ruling body. Hereditary rulership invariably leads to corruption, incompetence, or debauchery.
The founders of religions, companies, or ruling dynasties had to be charismatic, strategic, and effective leaders. Invariably, the fruit falls farther and farther from the tree, mostly retaining an overwhelming sense of entitlement and a murderously thin skin.
Saudi Arabia may be able to reform somewhat under a favored prince, but an absolute monarchy in partnership with a fundamentalist religion is a recipe for stalemate.
For true societal advancement, they will need their own religious reformation and societal enlightenment. Hopefully, they can avoid several hundred years of religious warfare as seen in Europe, and persistent flat earthers like we have in our country. But they will need to move to a representative form of government that protects religious and ethnic minorities and observes the rule of just laws.
I doubt we'll see much movement in this direction in my lifetime. If anything, we'll see ongoing regression during a Trump administration.
I understand that Donald Trump is proposing a new annual fundraiser to be held at all Trump International Hotels, Arabic-Anglo Night with a Sword Dance, and every participant who pays a certain amount even gets a souvenir scimitar and a small glowing orb for your desk.
1
Of course this feeble reaction has nothing to do with the mid-terms and the price of oil. The Saudis have promised retaliation for sanctions but Trump’s supporters will stand behind him even if the price of oil tops $150.00 a barrel.... yeah, right.. And if the price of oil goes up on November 7 it will be Hillary’s fault, or maybe Elizabeth Warren, or Nancy Pelosi or maybe Stormy Daniels
1
How come OUR diplomats don't torture and kill people? They're laughing at us!
2
Trump and Kushner are in the money w/the Saudis just like w/the Russians.. You really think he'd denounce their actions, do anything?
4
The motto of the US Army Special Forces is "De Oppreso Liber" meaning "To free the oppressed"
Trump is severely failing here.
3
It used to be that Americans would look at a situation and could be sure that America would take the moral high ground in any situation. Trump does just the opposite and his foolish supporters are right behind him. Making America Great Again? Not by a long shot.
1
It is a sad state of affairs when a US President acts as an apologist for a rogue dictator. Unfortunately, Trumps' defense of the Saudi Prince is not the only case in point.
An even sadder state of affairs is the the fact that some 40% of American voters still support this terrible president and his Republican Party that has stopped standing up to American values. The other 60% should assert who we are and vote NOW.
3
Growing gang of autocrats. That includes Trump. The president mocks journalists, calling them 'enemies of the people.' Clearly he has no comprehension of the impact of his statements from the most powerful leader in the world.
He mocks them at rallies, complains of fake news and orchestrates violent demonstrations against them.
I do not understand why there is no editorial that points out this connection between his actions and these repulsive fascist displays.
6
@HT
You are too kind to Trump by far in saying he has no comprehension of the impact of his statements. I think he knows exactly what might be provoked by his words. Arguably we have already seen violence toward our press provoked by his words. In addition I have seen more than one editorial pointing out his words as being provocative.
2
Donald Trump's USA gets no respect in the world. Americans are on their own.
2
"It could have been rogue killers". Trump is to the Saudis as Sarah Huckabee is to Trump.
3
Nothing is complicated when it comes to Trump's motives: Follow The Money.
1
This will sway moderates and centrists like me. Why would the killing of a Saudi journalist that wasn't even a U.S. citizen have such an effect? I don't know, but it just does. This is a strangely resonant incident that I can't seem to shake off, and I know I'm not alone. I don't want to make America great again if this is the America that we end up with.
5
Not a big surprise, and gee, it couldn't be because Trump, like The Bushes before him, has huge business dealings with Saudi Arabia? I saw a statement from Trump, and he said that "The Saudis are allies, and they buy a lot from the US, not just military gear", which tells the real truth, it is all about $$$.
As far as the Saudis being allies, as the old expression goes, with allies like that who needs enemies? This is a country that with one hand claims it is fighting terrorism, while on the other is spending billions of dollars all over the Islamic world promoting terrorist, through radical Madras schools that preach the fundamentalist Islam/anti western screed that is the basis for ISIS and Al Qaeda, they support terrorism by Palestinians, like giving bounties to the family of suicide bombers, and tracing money flows to Saudi Arabia has shown how roughly 30% of the revenue the Saudis get disappears when it gets there..anyone wanna bet how much of that ends up with Al Qaeda and the like? Yes, you could make the comparison that like Russia during WWII, Saudi is an ally against Iran and the like, but the difference is that once the war ended, so did the alliance, because the USSR was an enemy in reality. Put it this way, if Iran did what the Saudis just did, Trump would be threatening them with military action, with the Saudis, crickets...and on top of all these reasons, the Saudis hold a lot of US dollars and treasury notes.
What have we become as a nation when an American president publicly defends and makes excuses for a political murder.
How low will the GOP go? When will they show some shred of morality and backbone and put aside their self-serving complicity.
3
Of course DJT is the only world leader who makes excuses for and defends this atrocity - it's what he does. Nothing more to see here, boy and girls - move on.
4
Wasn’t it the Republicans in 2009 deriding Obama for bowing to the Saudi King and Trump mocking him, why isn’t the press calling out those hypocrites now?
The Washington Times was all upset about the show of “fealty” by an “American President”, where is their opinion piece now?
What Trump has done is worse than Obama’s expression of good manner, he’s become an apologist to a horrendous act of murder to a journalist, who had sought out protection by living in the U.S.
It’s a sad display of weakness in his part. It’s not realpolitik because long term it’s not in our interest to be allies with loose cannons and irresponsible governments as this present Saudi governments has show itself.
I am not a fan of Senator Graham but he is right to speak out. Where are the rest of the so called patriotic Republicans on this?
2
@J.D., senator graham? Trump and he are just playing bad cop good cop.
3
@J.D. There are no "patriotic" Republicans.
3
Sorry. You are correct. I should have put “patriotic” in quotes. I meant it ironically. Thanks for catching that.
The murder, alleged dismemberment of Jamal and the flaccid response by this administration holds a mirror up to what a morally bankrupt world view the nations of this planet have embraced. Where are the general principles of democracy and notions of humanity now? Why isn’t Europe speaking up either?
Why fight the Civil War and World War 1 & 2 to settle back down to a world view with no morals? I can’t believe this Darwinian world of survival of the fittest is what we want the next generation to embrace.
The sooner we embrace electric cars and alternative sources of energy, the sooner we can rid ourselves of these corrupting alliances with these tyrants of the desert.
1
They all lie so eloquently and get away with it because of weapon export orders to Saudi Arabia and don't the Saudis know it.
I recently read that the Crown Price would like Saudi Arabia to become more like China and not a Democracy. Tells you a lot about his oppressive regime and intolerance of free speech and other peoples opinions that aren't in agreement with his.
The 7 minute slow murder of this victim was recorded on his Apple watch. There was no interrogation and the intention was to slowly hack him to death. Apparently the Saudis discovered the watch and tried to guess the password and also use his finger to get in to erase the conversation but there was no finger password and they couldn't guess the password yet they still kept on lying even though they knew the evidence was there in iCloud. Deny, deny, deny, and just hope this fades away.
Probably knew they'd get away with it after what happened to the USA Diplomat in a Middle Eastern embassy under Obamas watch.
1
@CK A "monarchy" is hardly a democracy.
1
"thorough" and "transparent" investigations from Saudi Arabia....
I don't think I've laughed so hard since Nixon claimed not be a "crook".
But the real irony is that Turkey (a wanna-be theocracy controlled by a despot) is accusing Saudi Arabia (a real theocracy run by a wanna-be westerner). You just can't make this stuff up.
4
I thought Congress had the trade responsibility ,not the president? DJM
This editorial was published before Turkey revealed the hideous audio tape of Khashoggi's dismemberment and death. Of course Saudi Arabia should be penalized for this murder of a journalist, and of course Trump will find a way around that. He will not cancel the huge arms shipments to the Saudis. But the curious question is this -- why suddenly does this murder stand out from the numerous other ones committed by the thugs in power in Russia, the Philippines, and yes China, Romania, Malta, Mexico, Guatemala, Honduras...the list goes on of journalists (not to mention, activists) paying with their lives for uncovering corruption in the wrong places. The US has ignored the rest. How is this one different? Because he was a resident in the US? But what does that have to do with the moral degeneracy implied by ignoring such acts? Does money ("trade") alone explain it? If so, forget about Trump doing anything besides slapping a few wrists. The entire system worldwide is toxic.
@free range What difference does it make? You need to be a certain "status" or ethnicity to make your life important?
1
Trump's allegiance to the Saudis is more than embarrassing--as is his allegiance to Russia's meddling Putin.
Why is it when it is time to take a moral stand, Trump sides with the dictators and the perpetrators of state crimes?
Besides the fact that Trump is infatuated with the world's dictators and appears to like them a lot more the world's truly democratic leaders and our allies, why do I have the unrelenting feeling that what most drives Trump's political decisions is own financial well being?
So, out of more than curiosity, what are Trump's and his family's personal economic ties to Saudi Arabia (looking at you too Jared Kushner)?
I don't think a lot of Americans really grasp the nature of the problem of conflicts of interest, and how that directly affects so many political decisions in our increasingly corrupt, self-serving political system.
This is an area where the media can do a better job in educating the public.
3
"There’s no question that Saudi Arabia is an important American ally in the Middle East and that the relationship cannot be casually severed."
If 19 Saudi hijackers flying planes into the Trade Center on 9/11 killing 3000 Americans didn't sever ties with The Kingdom what is the murder of one lone journalist?
It is, and always has been about money and power and who controls it.
6
Pompeo said that the trip was incredibly successful, but didn't really cover the facts known so far, only that the Saudi's committed to a transparent process (investigating themselves?).
So far the president has helped the Saudi's with covering up what has happened by going along with their stories, not showing real outrage at what has happened to Khashoggi, and seeming to try to protect the Saudi's from consequences.
Even though denial is no longer an option the president seems to be deliberately not hearing evidence (what about US intelligence departments) and then implying there is no evidence of the Crown Prince's involvement.
1
The saudis are directly responsible for spreading Islamic extremism and fanaticism worldwide. They sponsor madrassas that brainwash young kids, boys and girls and they spread extreme doctrine via their sponsored mullahs imams and clerics. This they have done all over South Asia and Africa, for decades now, without being questioned by onlookers and watchdogs. Untold human rights abuses have entailed because of the spread of this extreme doctrine. The US has basically turned its head away and starting form Bush senior on, the Presidents have schmoozed saudi royalty even while they were sending trained terrorists all over the world.
America has zero moral compass, its not just the Presidents, it is our lawmakers. If a watchdog is able to trace the money form Saudi Arabia that funds our military industry complex, our corporations, they will led you to the lawmakers whose elections are financed by none other than Soiled Saudi money. That is the tragedy, we are truly orphans.
2
Before Mr. Khashoggi was murdered they cut off his fingers and tortured him. Was that really necessary?
Trump will probably continue to defend his favorite dictator but
American and European businesses will want nothing to do with Saudi Arabia.
These gut over the belt, tough talking Republicans turn out to only interested in the money. Money the President can use to enrich himself. Money they can distribute to one percenters, their donors, their campaigns, and their corporate base. Make as much money as you can by any means possible, if it requires excusing murder, so be it, don't even think twice. God, but this is beyond disgusting. Notice America, notice.
3
“It sounded to me like maybe these could have been rogue killers. Who knows?”
That is some powerfully condemning rhetoric, there, Mr. President. I would hate to be anyone under your investigative gaze. Phew!
2
Hamilton warned in 1792: “When a man unprincipled in private life...is seen to...flatter and fall in with all the nonsense of the zealots of the day—it may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may “ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.”
3
@BrianAustin These types are know as demagogues.
It's time for the free press to stop the Trump-Saudi game of "let's pretend" and to publish a full obituary of Jamal Khashoggi, attribute responsibility to the Saudis and lambaste 45 for his cowardly and dismissive behavior in this matter. The so-called president cannot seem to see his way clear to condemn this murder in the strongest terms; he is an international farce and a sham.
5
The only reason to torture and dismember a journalist is to warn and deter other journalists from getting too nosey. So whoever did this revolting had to WANT the news out, and at the same time had to hide, somehow. They are succeeding. The warning is out, and of course President Trump, who considers journalists the enemy of the people, is providing the hiding place, with his bloodstained drivel about let's not rush to judgment. In providing cover for this atrocity, he borrows its power to send his own warning to journalists.
4
Kingdom is a blight in the name of humble Muslims around the world and native to Arabian peninsula. Saud stole the land of Arabs and captured all of its people in overt autocratic might- flogging , hanging dissenters, demolishing all relics that went against their philosophy of stranglehold. Arab land became Saudi Arabia by crime of foreign governments around 1932. Sleepy Arabs looks the other way. Must they wake up -you bet.
And now a crime in open air- Jamal killed by Kingdom and at King >Prince ORDERS, in Turkey! What if Jamal was an American icon -say Dan Rather? Will U.S. say it is a hiccup and not a crime and we continue our friendship with Kingdom.
1
BEST COMMENT I HAVE READ TODAY:
"Will Trump now ask the FBI to investigate and report back in seven days — so he can exonerate the crown prince?"
7
Here is what I would like to say while maintaining eye contact with any DJT supporter about DJT and Saudi Arabia:
1. Your "hero" evaded paying the taxes that paid the salaries of the first responders on 9/11, brave men and women who died to save others. He felt he needed more money than he could ever use in a lifetime. They paid with their lives to save others.
2. Then he bragged that his building was now the tallest in Manhattan and that not paying taxes makes him smart. Then we found out Saudi Arabia was the origin of most of the 9/11 terrorists who killed thousands of Americans and traumatized a nation and indeed the whole world.
3. Now your "hero" is making excuses for the brutal murder and dismemberment of a journalist because his Saudi Arabian puppeteers are giving him and his arms dealer merchants of death buddies billions.
4. Then, the same day, as head of state of the most powerful nation on earth with all those weapons and billions at his disposal he publicly calls the woman he committed adultery with, paid off, threatened, and lied to the nation about, "horseface."
There are no words.
5
I know what! Sic Mueller on 'em! Yeah, he'll figure things out within two years and after spending ten or twenty million.
Yeah, we'll get right to the bottom of it all, you watch. Why dinna we figure this out before?
@L'osservatore How much did Whitewater and the Watergate investigation cost? And, how much time did that take?
Some years ago the British caught a high ranking Saudi leader taking a multi-million dollar kick back from a military contract. Their reaction was to shut down the investigation because it involved so many British jobs. Trump is following this same script. Should we be surprised? The simple fact is that the Saudis do not share our same values, but we must do business with them anyway. They still fund schools across the Middle East that teach hate of Jews and others. This is true of many countries (Pakistan anyone?). This is the world we live in and it is our own ugly flawed human creation.
So to be clear, 15 Saudis participated in killing Americans on 9/11; and now this despot brutally murdered a journalist. Looks like the Saudis will simply do what they do with suicide bombers families for the past couple of decades-they'll 'reimburse' the family of the deceased with blood money. So, now they'll identify a diplomat scapegoat, (not the forensic doc that happens to travel with a bone saw), execute him , and pay off his family-blood money, so to speak, just like with their financed suicide bombers.
Hey, but let's make sure we are at their conference so we can continue to lay all blame on Iran...
5
Who are you in the position ask the head of another country for cooperation? Oh forgot, you are the police of the world(only if when you smell opportunities to gain)
1
It is not hard to see that our own president, left unchecked, would love to handle journalists in a similar way. This president is an autocrat in waiting. His view of Putin, etc. is reflexively sympathetic to these dictators because that is the man under the surface.
3
Jamal Kashoggi did the world a service, at the cost of his life, by showing the cruelty and brutality on which the Saudi theocracy rests.
5
Send us the heads of MBS and the other 15 or send them for trial to the Hague. I'd be OK with either choice.
2
Does anyone care what Trump says or does anymore beyond a fan club? And, isn't it interesting that everyone else, including that amused UN audience consisting of world leaders who openly laughed at him (not with him) just assume that he is "acting" from a script someone else dictates, in essence? No one believes anything Trump says except for the aforementioned "fans" who are dwindling. The predictable rallies and the babyish tweets have lost ratings. A full scale investigation is underway by those who, like the author of that anonymous NYT Op ED, will reveal the evidence in due time with or without Trump. Let's hear the truth.
2
I don't think they want a cover up. I think they want Saudis to know what will happen if they question their government.
3
Trump wants the money from Saudi contracts so he can sell them fighter planes. He knows the Saudis are using these planes to fight their proxy war in Yemen. Indeed, Saudi-coalition-led air attacks have caused almost two-thirds of reported civilian deaths in Yemen, according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights.
Trump couldn't care less. Being an accessory to a crime against humanity is the cost of doing business.
3
Trump wants the money from Saudi contracts to buy fighter planes. He knows the Saudis are using these planes to fight their proxy war in Yemen. Indeed, Saudi-coalition-led air attacks have caused caused almost two-thirds of reported civilian deaths in Yemen, according to the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights.
Trump couldn't care less. Being an accessory to a crime against humanity is the cost of doing business.
2
Let's bite our tongues, hard, and remember that we ourselves are witnesses to a U.S. President caught out in the open, brazenly faking an alibi for a hideously vicious piece of brutality. Here is a glaring, horrible light, on what our country has become. Pardon me for saying it, fellow readers, but this is the kind of thing that men like Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin did. Who will ever again be able to see Mr. Trump without remembering his complicity in this crime? Does Mr. Pompeo evade scrutiny himself, for his part in this?
12
Isn't it entirely possible that the most important reason that Trump must keep the relationships with Russia and/or Saudi Arabia intact is because he may seek asylum in one of these countries once the U.S. indicts him at some time in the near or distant future. Perhaps some digging into that would be fruitful.
7
Rogue Killer? I think or big brained leader is on to something?Maybe the 400 pound guy that plays with computer hacking software decided to travel to Turkey and visit the SA consulate and learn how to "hack" in a different way.
THIS IS OUR PRESIDENT!!!!
God Bless America.....please.
J
1
Trump has made himself an accessory to murder.
Lock him up.
Throw away the key.
7
The facts are clear. No further “thorough, transparent and timely investigation” is necessary.
Saudi agents at the direction of Mohammed bin Salman brutally murdered Jamal Khashoggi; and venal, incessantly-lying Donald Trump is fully committed to covering it up.
4
The cover-up crumbles?? It was an obvious lie to begin with, what was there to crumble? And, Tantrump "buys" the Saudi lie? No, Tantrump may SAY he believes it, but he doesn't believe anything at all. He only "believes in" getting attention and enriching himself.
The discerning reader will see the soft-pedaling and inaccurate language of so much of the NY Times' reporting.
Think for yourself?
4
The murderous Saudi regime gave over $100 million to The Clinton Foundation and Clinton Presidential Library . The Clintons should set an example and return that blood money .
1
He doesn't 'buy' their denials.... He SELLS them.... and believes he will profit from the sale.
But what does a man profit if he gains the world but loses his immortal soul.... ??
The demons have reserved a nice warm spot for his disgustingness.... and all who continue to support him
The rest of us will do fine.
4
If only the god thing were true. Many of us live in the here and now. If there is a life hereafter it is buckshee. For example, the million people in Yemen with CHOLERA are in the here and now. They suffer and die in the here and now. Guess this is how the GOP rationaluzes the suffering of denying food, housing, and medical care to the undeserving poor...they will go to heaven for their reward. IF I REMEMBER THE TEACHINGS OF JESUS, HE WAS TEACHING A KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH!
1
The King said he didn't know anything about it. What am I going to do, call him a liar and miss out on him buying some more of my hotels and properties? C'mon, what's a madder wich you.
4
Pompeo to The Prince, smiling:
"No worries, Prince; we're not going to allow your murder and dismemberment of one lousy journalist get in the way of $110 billion in arms sales. By the way, those ribs and special BBQ sauce you served me for dinner last night were particularly delicious."
The Prince to Pompeo, smiling knowingly:
"They were delicious, for more reasons than one..."
as in:
"Fried Green Tomatoes"
and
"Eating Raoul"
5
Wait! Isn't (or wasn't) Khashoggi - "our Saudi Arabian citizen" - a journalist and therefore by definition an "enemy of the people"? The fact he was killed (murdered?) in what is technically Saudi territory should not be of any concern to anybody.
Trump therefore showed incredible restraint when he criticized the "guilty until proven innocent" attitude of those who doubted the Saudis. Look, if Trump was so happy to have a "joint investigation" with the Putin's thugs on the Russian 2016 meddling, why shouldn't he trust the "transparent" investigation by the Saudis on the death of one of the "enemy of the people" on their "soil"?
Dictatorship is good especially when you are the dictator.
Heil Trump and the rest of the dictators.
6
We need their Oil and their support. It's one of the reasons Trump is pushing Energy indepence.
Until we are enery independant we are stuck with Saudi's.
Its that simple. This will blow over in a week and be forgotten.
2
WHAT is Pompeo SMIRKING AT???
8
@rwp, he has never seen so much glitter and gold obscene garish lurid shining wealth in his life!
1
Whatever we do in the long term, it MUST lead to cutting relationship off with this Evil Kingdom and and preferably bomb them to the 6 AD. They like to live in that era. I say let's help send them there and the sooner the better.
1
We have an amoral president who's on the same low level as these thugs: Putin, Salman, Duterte, Kim Jong-un, and el-Sisi.
So Saudi Arabia will get away with murder of an American citizen and nothing will change until we VOTE Trump OUT.
5
Surely, there must be a list of all organizations in the US (public and pie are) that swim in Saudi bloody oil money. The Times should publish such institutions for the Public to know the far reaching power of silencing the World the Saudis use with their oil money! This crime should be referred to ICC and Interpol issues a red notice on all of MBC’s killer thugs!
Maybe Khashoggi’s family find peace in all this tag of war between morals in the world and the amount of power money wields over them!
2
Trump is right at home with liars.
He should preside over a liars convention. All the despicables from around the world. You can tell each other Whoppers ! Yea! That's it. Their favorite must be, "Tell us the one about your bone spur !"
I'm sure he will pull a "Kavanaugh", not a real investigation.
The word has been out for quite some time.
Trump? Dangle some money and buy him.
Trump ?,...Making America a Disgrace for Putin.
5
Well, out Here in the real America, we is 10000% MAGA and we believe what Mr Trump, Our President Chose By God, said. He said "there is Good People on Both sides" and I believe that too, unless the other Side is Democrats. Now I am sure that most of them Arab People who went to meet Mr Kassihoggi was good People and bringing a bone Saw on a visit don't prove nothing. We need to remember that our MAGA SUVs need gasoline if we is going get to our MAGA Rallies and to Church so we need to give them Arabian Saudis some time to get there story all straight because there ain't no hurry since he is dead already.
Maimed
Appendages
Gyrate
Again !!!
7
It's spelled ABDICATE. All caps, for Mr. Trump.
3
Trump is inclined to believe the Saudis? That posits that Trump still has shred of humanity left. This president is not only a stooge for Putin but also loves psychopaths like Duterte and Kim.
3
Trump has debased the United States far enough!! Obviously there are no depths to which he won't sink! He must go, he must be impeached, and he must be prevented from pretending that he has ever cared about "innocent until proven guilty" as he has lied time after time to make it appear an innocent person is guilty--and in the case of Putin, defended a guilty person by pretending he is innocent! He must be prevented from sanctioning this grisly, inhuman, animalistic murder in the name of profit! The arms "deal" with the Saudis must be stopped! Down with the most evil president who has ever held that office!
7
Will Trump now ask the FBI to investigate and report back in seven days — so he can exonerate the crown prince?
11
Senator Graham is a lot like a weather vane. Look at the direction his hot air blows. It is all for theatrical and political effect. He saved Kavanaugh with that blustery performance, and now he is trying to save the GOP with another. What is so pathetic is that it works. I hope we are smarter than this. I hope our voter turnouts improve. I hope people begin to realize that Ryan and McConnell represent an extreme Republican Party that is the most serious threat to our democracy since Hitler invaded Poland and Japan bombed Pearl Harbor. And I hope we stop our support of the House of Saud, but I am not holding my breath for it.
7
Our President and his Secretary of State are conspiring with the Saudi Crown Prince to craft an alibi for a grisly murder. Are we still the moral leaders of the world? Is this making us great again?
I'm deeply ashamed of our President's behavior.
7
Amazing = France has not yet filed a formal diplomatic request to ship their dismembered statue back for proper burial.
1
The problem with a president and his son in law having personal interests in overseas policy comes to light as Trump brazenly sides with his financial benefactors in Saudi. No wonder Trump says don't believe what you see hear and read only what I tweet and Fox News confirms. Our new world image as protectors of dictators ,financial bullies and when another world crisis occurs how could we believe the word of Trump when a Trump hotel overseas is at stake. Trump depends on Fox News and ignore the best intel agencies in the world at his disposal as he does not like the truth only what benefits him and his cronies.
4
Would like to recommend a book to those who are not as familiar with Saudi as others. It is called the Siege of Mecca. Not only does it document some of what we (the US) was doing in Saudi back in the 1970s but how the religion figures in their behavior and how they deal with dissidents.
2
"inclined to buy?"... Trump is selling the narrative to others like a t.v. pitchman.
3
This is who we are now, a nation that openly supports murderous despots and dictators( Saudi is a dictatorship cloaked in a monarchy). So much for democracies, thanks for nothing minions.
4
The Saudis had a cleanup, not a coverup.
1
It is not their oil ... they are just closer to it.
Warning: I am an acknowledged cynic. Nothing — and I mean NOTHING— is going to make any difference to trump’s support of mbs, nor of trump supporters to their ringmaster. Sad.
1
"If Saudi Arabia is allowed to get away with some lame story about the apparent murder of Mr. Khashoggi, the world’s growing gang of autocrats will feel even less constraint."
Starting with our own aspiring autocrat, Donald J. Trump.
4
Just when you think Trump can't possibly become more despicable he again rises to the occasion. He believes the crown prince is not responsible for the killing since that's what the prince told him, and of course that is not fake news. What is fake news in his warped mind is the evidence linking the prince to the murder. Oh, and let's not forget his warped priority: money has greater value than a life.
4
Gee, Lieutenant, I really can't imagine what happened to that poor journalist. Could be he just decided to disappear on his own, ya know? Or maybe some rogue killers found themselves in the Saudi place and decided to kill someone, just an unfortunate circumstance, ya know? I'm sure my good friend Mo B.S. had absolutely nuthin' to do with it. And those Saudi guys on the two jets? Lieutenant, they were just coming for a nice social visit. Hummus and chips, and some hookah smoking, ya know? Just shootin' the breeze like guys like to do. Nuthin' to it. Now, Lieutenant, you just don't worry about it. We'll look into and see if anything untoward happened to that poor guy. We'll fix everything up so you don't have to explain nuthin' to nobody. Ok? Ok!
5
Mr. Khashoggi who was visiting his fiancé, Hatice Cengiz, first entered the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul on September 28, “despite being somewhat concerned that he could be in danger”, according to Ms. Cengiz. “He did not mind walking into the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul because he did not believe that something bad could happen on Turkish soil.”
“After a positive first meeting with consular staff, who welcomed him warmly and assured him that the necessary paperwork would come through, Jamal was hardly concerned ahead of his second visit. He walked into the consulate of Saudi Arabia, his native country, without doubting he would be safe there.”
I wonder why he did this. His WP columns (readily available at the WP website) tore into the Saudi Government and specifically into MBS and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. He wrote in a May 2018 column that “the crackdown has shocked even the Government’s most stalwart defenders.”
Clearly he thought he was immune. He thought the Saudis would blithely go ahead and assist him in his plans to wed Ms. Cengiz.
Mr. Khashoggi didn’t deserve to be butchered to death but I wonder if a little more common sense would have avoided this tragic end to his life.
When you speak out against repressive regimes – someone’s always watching. A smiling face is not what you think. And they don’t play by the rules.
3
He did not trust them. I read that he fled SA with 2 suircases after friends of his had been arrested for talking at a party.
2
@bcer
"He did not trust them"
Then, knowing what he had written about them and how he had publicly shamed them - he should never have gone anywhere near that consulate.
I get all the remonstrations after the fact; I'm just trying to step back and figure out how he could have saved his own life and how others can avoid a similar occurrence.
I'm not a gun owner and I strongly support much tighter regulation on gun ownership. But Mr. Trump and his sycophants are slowly changing my mind on guns: The American people just might need that "well armed militia" after all -- to defend us from OUR government.
4
Mr. Trump has established a pattern of denying reality when it doesn't suit his agenda. In this case, the grisly murder of Mr. Khashoggi, he can't handle the truth because he doesn't want to.
4
At the very least the Trump administration should demand that the Saudis return Jamal Khashoggi's entire body to his family and fiancé. Trump and his smiling Secretary of State give one the impression that they are just going through the motions to placate an outraged world. Where is the dignity? Trump is briefed on a man likely tortured, murdered and dismembered and while he's telling the media that MBS says he didn't do it, he's thinking, "...wonder if it's steak for dinner tonight...".
2
Surprisingly, the Turkish government did not immediately quarantine (no one enters and occupants are evicted) the crime scenes -- the Saudi consulate and the Consul's house -- and seize the vehicles involved, something well within their rights, to preserve the evidence, not that that was really required since the crime and the criminals ar so obvious. Trump's dissembling is no surprise, since lying is mother's milk to him. Pompeo will be shamed forever. The Turks will probably leak evidence piece by piece, discrediting the Saudis and the US. No matter to the first, a pre-Magna Carta medieval monarchy; perhaps more so to America.
1
@IfUAskdAManFromMars
Many of the rules and laws that apply to us regular citizens do not apply to diplomats. The country of origin gets to designate who they are. I believe in law, the Saudi Consulate is Saudi territory, not Turkish and therefore is immune.
@Elizabeth: Correct on the eviction front, but they could have banned all entry. That would have prevented the cleaning up, painting, etc.
I don't really understand why this story has held so much dominance over the news. Yes, it is tragic abuse, criminal act by SA. Are we surprised? Bombing children in Yemen gets less coverage and outrage than this.
Is this more important because he was a journalist? Or is it that he was a US resident? Remember the Bush and Obama administrations extrajudicial killings of both designated terrorists (we just believe they are terrorists, what happened to innocent until proven guilty, eh?) and the countless civilians who were also killed in US drone strikes? Multiple wedding party's slaughtered...
https://www.thenation.com/article/us-has-bombed-least-eight-wedding-part...
The US and SA relationship is strong and I don't think any administration has held them to account for anything ever. Sure Trump has strong ties and has been forthcoming about his favor of SA because they spend money with us and with him. So we know that he won't do anything. That said, I don't think the Obama admin would do anything either, the only difference would be the optics and the administrative rhetoric about the event.
Nothing is going to come of this.
1
It’s only a matter of time before Anwar al-Awlaki is raised. If you recall, he was a ‘gadfly’ to his government. Regardless of his crimes, he was killed, along with his innocent 16 year old son, by a drone strike. He was an American citizen denied due process and killed in a foreign country by his nation at the directive of his President.
Please help me understand how we can have any moral high ground when we exhibit such brazen behavior to one of our citizens?
2
What is the difference between this and the Chinese arrest and imprisonment of the head of Interpol? If the Chinese have evidence of his corruption, they should be sharing it. Otherwise, here is yet another example of an autocratic ruler in action.
It is becoming a new dark age for speakers of truth.
3
People love to decry "political correctness". The loss of it is really the loss of people modeling behavior we should, as citizens, emulate. If you are a leader and behave like a dog then don't be surprised if your whole country starts barking. In our case Pres. Trump not only coddles the potential murderer, but also may be heavily conflicted with his own business interests. If the Democrats take control of the House I hope they go there with both this basic conflict and the emoluments clause since I suspect that any revenue from Saudi Arabia must come from our via the State (same with Russia).
3
Trump's financial and "friendship" ties with Saudi Arabia are a mirror image of his relationships with Russia. There are hundreds of millions of dollars mixed up in the Russia and Saudi Arabia stories: you should have"followed the money". Trump's (and Jared's) dealings with the Saudi's have been and continue to be just as corrupt as his deaings with Russia. Your last paragraph is weak. esp. saying that the dictators and terrorists spread across the world "will feel even less constraint." Looks to me that Trump has intimidated you, that you feel constrained, that you are pulling your punches. The last sentence of your editorial shoould have been: "The Kashoggi murder is more evidence of Mr. Trump's corrupt bargains with dictators and billionaires. He should be removed from office as soon as possible."
3
Trump claims he's against 'guilty until proven innocent' when it applies to people he supports, and himself, but didn't seem so inclined at his rallies and the Republican Convention when he and his cronies led chants of 'lock her up'.
Where was his presumption of innocence then?
2
Yet more evidence that the U.S. has forfeited its position of moral leadership in the world with Trump as president.
No country can be a moral leader with an immoral president.
5
As patriarchy reaches its endgame, with "progress" its last cover continuing to fail, the male supremacists fall back on traditional warfare, religions and tyrant worship.
All because we refuse to respect Nature, limit our numbers and give women their due.
2
Obviously short on virtue, Trump would throw his own brother under the bus for a buck, and he’s found friends who’d do the same.
3
It would be a good idea if the media makes it abundantly clear to Mike Pompeo that he is dangerously close to aiding and abetting the Saudis as they choose a fall-guy to pin this crime on and most likely execute. If the prince chooses an innocent to die for his own crime, Pompeo will be stained with this horrific crime for the rest of his life.
5
Trump is delaying action and buying time with promises of investigations to get past the public's rage stage. It's a trick cops use when they do wrong. Trump wants to get along a few weeks as the shock subsides and people are "Over It".
1
Other countries did look up and admire the United States when we took moralistic stances, but those virtue signalling positions came with a price. Usually, that price was in the form of trade agreement concession, and all too often, those trade agreements harmed working Americans. America won't have its international business disrupted by the planned or accidental murder of a political activist. We have things to accomplish for our workers.
1
@Real D B Cooper So you are saying "the ends justify the means," then try to be honest and acknowledge that, unless of course is against your bottom-line, right?
2
@Alberto We cannot allow the objective of appearing virtuous to be accomplished at the expense of American workers. How does the average American benefit by our elites being popular with service employees on the French Riviera?
Are we surprised? Killing journalists, particularly those that criticize those in power seems to be quite in line with the ideology of a president that calls them the "enemy of the people." Perhaps Pompeo has been sent there in a training mission.
4
Please stop referring to Mr. Trump as if he cares about decency and Law.
You know well that it is not that Mr. Trump thinks that perhaps The Saudis and all the human garbage he supports is clean, but that as long as he profits from them he will support them.
7
In all this discussion of Saudi Arabia and its crimes, the elephant in the room is Israel and its advocates in America, exemplified by Jared Kushner. The details of Kushner involvement with Saudi Arabia on behalf of Israel have been reported on. For example here:
https://www.strategic-culture.org/pview/2018/10/16/arabian-game-of-thron...
Saudi Arabia knows that because it has allied itself with Israel against Iran, Israel's closest political allies in America would work behind the scenes to shield it from commensurate American reactions to its crimes. Israel is therefore a partial enabler in this story.
As long as America tolerates Israel's influence in the innermost sanctums of American government (in the form of Jared Kushner), countries that ally with Israel can expect indulgent behavior in Washington.
11
The Secret Service would not let a journalist from one of the networks near prince jared on a plane. GRRRR.
1
The Saudis got away with 9/11, so why shouldn't they get away with this?
15
@Cloudy, not only did the Saudis get away with 9/11, they also distracted the rest of the world by dummy wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Every single day I meet folks who have served in those 2 wars, rotations after rotation, still asking why, untold miseries, PTSDs, families falling apart....its the biggest tragedy our generation has faced. All because a Saudi buddy of a President decided to go attack Iraq when he should have held Saudis directly responsible for rise of Islam extremis and terrorism, worldwide.
4
It is inconceivable that Trump would continue to seek emoluments when Kashoggi was lured and dismembered by Saudi.
How much more are we to endure???
7
Power corrupts, but in MBS' case, it seems he was already morally bankrupt, just waiting for his platform. He thought he could kill Khashoggi as a warning to all his critics. Trump is intent on letting him get away with it because Khashoggi also criticized him and because of his business interests. They had intelligence that the Saudis were planning to harm Khashoggi.
We will fight for you, Jamal. I wish my country had protected you in life and in death.
5
Who benefits from these arms sales? Who’s pockets are lined so much so that lives can be destroyed and the White House makes excuses?
Follow the money.
7
The Saudis are thrilled to have Trump running cover for them, as planned. They knew that with his hatred of the ever prying press, and being bought off by them, he would quickly look the other way in this murder. They were right.
5
I don't think Trump is "inclined to buy the kingdom’s lame denials." He knows full well they are lies but since they don't fit his narrative, he once again cozies up, just as he has done with Putin and Kim.
6
By his full support of tyrants, I think that Trump is really telegraphing his upcoming response to the Mid-terms and his non-recognition of the same. Who will stand up to him then?
3
POTUS doesn't buy their denials, he is part of their denial and complicit in the murder of a WaPo journalist.
13
So the Saudis want to investigate themselves, completely ignoring the evidence that the Turkish government has made public.
Meanwhile, Trump wants to make money selling arms to the Saudis.
Guess what will happen next. Nothing.
4
they use the bombers and fighter planes we sell them to attack school buses in Yemen. Why is anyone surprised by the Administration's silence on a state-sponsored murder?
13
Could it not be time to dump Saudi Arabia as a so-called ally and friend? The bodily dismemberment of this one journalist is just a cherry on top of a very large cake.
This it the country whose primary export after oil seems to be extremist Islam and terrorism. They produced Bin Laden. Foreign labourers are at best indentured servants or worse. Their entire economy seems to run on the knowledge and expertise of outside experts while the Saudis themselves shop. They claim to be the custodians of Islam's holiest sites yet have tolerated conditions leading to repeated mass stampedes and covered up afterwards, while profiting from the pilgrims. They oppress women. They oppress homosexuals. They oppress Shiites and other religious minorities, where they are even allowed to exist. They oppress foreigners, and those foreigners not oppressed are corralled into luxurious compounds. They have no freedom of the press. They are one of the last absolute monarchies left in the world.
It may hurt us, but we have alternatives at Saudi Arabia; the West needs to stop being so afraid of the thin-skinned Saudis. We need to wean ourselves off their oil. In the long run the likes of Saudi Arabia need to be called out for the despotic medieval tyrants they are and disinvited from the party.
20
It is breathtaking to hear Trump excuse Saudi Arabia for this brutal act by citing business transactions. He doesn't want to defend human rights (and the Khashoggi incident is just one of thousands of such events in the Kingdom), because of his personal business interests and those of his oligarch buddies in industry.
The United States is being bought and sold by Trump. Our democracy is now on the auction block, and our ethical principles are in the trash thanks to Emperor Donald.
12
This editorial assumes that Trump would ever want to do the right thing in situations like this. But in the Trumpian era doing what is ethical is like thinking any con man could be trusted. Trump's base knows this about their hero and it is pointless to expect anything beyond a shrug from this man without an honest impulse in his body.
When this man came into power we ushered in an era of who cares where the buck and feckless impulses rule.
3
I forget: when did Trump ever do the right thing?
6
When it comes to oil, business ventures and/or America's position with allies and enemies worldwide (in this case, Iran), Trump nor any US President will do what's morally correct. I would be shocked if any sort of major sanctions are passed against Saudi Arabia. No doubt Trump's position and comments are nonsensical, however I foresee a more feasible excuse to be announced shortly for why there will be no major consequences. Indeed it is tricky, due to possible repercussions with SA and Iran, but something theoretically should still be done.
Come to think it, I can't recall a time in recent American history where the US took a stand on serious world matters for the simple greater good. Even WWII, Roosevelt kept a neutral position on the war and only got the United States involved with the attack on Pearl Harbor - over two years after the war started.
2
@Steven Poulin--Magnitsky act? Sanctions? Deporting Russian diplomats? Any of that ring a bell with you?
1
@Pat - The Magnitsky Act and sanctions hurt the other country, not America. In this case, America would be affected by taking a stand. As for deporting Russia diplomats, big deal.
Other countries used to look up to the U.S. to defend the rights of the oppressed and disenfranchised and to seek justice when it seemed none was possible. Now, we have leadership that defends despots like Putin and the Saudis while smiling when crowds cheer and yell about locking up Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi.
350
@Diane L. When?
@Diane L. Yes, and how ridiculous was all that. We did not use our brains, when the real picture was right there. Gullible we were.
Ridiculously gullible we are. Still. We hired Trump to run us. Can you really imagine anyone as stupid as we are?
1
So what do “you” recommend the USA do Regards this still unexplainable matter between a dissident Saudi reporter and his country, that he reportedly Dissed over the years to the point he had to flee for his life? Then he calmly walks into the angry lions mouth, but with his trusty “Dick Tracy “ like watch on record to an outside, still unidentified, source that evidently recorded his murder? What do you want the President to do...please?
1
We want him to stand up for the rule of law and common decency. That’s what.
1
@Moe Def--man, your back must hurt from all of that bending over. They lured him there---Istanbul! Not Riyadh. They promised not to harm him. Stop blaming the victim.
Saudi may be called a monarchy but a monarchy is really a dictatorship. We all know that trump loves dictators and human rights violators so it is natural he'd believe anything they would say.
5
Ban Saudi royals from traveling to US and EU. Freeze their assets. Seize their yachts, planes, and castles. Stop selling them weapons. Impose a no-fly zone over Yemen. Stop buying their oil. Impose a naval blockade around the peninsula. Make them feel the heat. Nudge the king to sack his arrogant son before this guy commits another hubris.
3
The Saudi regime, namely MBS must have been desparate to get rid of the journalist from the Washington Post.Their scheme to get him murdered was transparent from the beginning.They knew the Turks had cameras and listening devices and that they knew which planes landed and who was aboard.There was nothing really covert.They did not even have a solid alibi devised.One can only conclude that they thought the murder would be little noticed and happily forgiven by the US, namely Donald Trump who is so fond of them and so dismissive of the “fake press”.This cavalier attitude is a very bad omen.
3
sounds a lot like the Kavanaugh business- "transparency" "complete review" "innocent until proven guilty" instead of rouge killers plain denials. How anyone can keep ingesting this utter nonsense is beyond me. Our nation's chief exec has no credibility on any issue.
6
“Just spoke to the King of Saudi Arabia who denies any knowledge of whatever may have happened ‘to our Saudi Arabian citizen,’”
Well, that covers it. No matter what happened the king don't know nuttin', whether it was a murder or an afternoon brunch. I'm satisfied.
4
To see Trump shill for this morally despicable regime is an abomination. Has an American President ever been so compromised by outsiders (and incompetence?).
November 6th is the first step to taking back our country!
8
Our president enjoys the company of dictators and autocrats. He aspires to rid the U.S. Constitution and start a dictatorship himself. Only if we let him.
5
I hope this is the beginning of the end of our close ties to this brutal, despotic, authoritarian country. We will need to buy their oil, but we should begin to wind down our military support for them. They are not our friends.
2
Lindsey Graham is engaged in tough talk.....for how long? He and the feckless Republican party have, long ago, abdicated any sense of independence with regard to Don the Con. In a few days Graham will, shake his head and lament the lack of physical evidence (Khashoggi was dismembered) or a first hand account (the gang of 15 will be MIA) so we're left with 'he said...the world said. What are you gonna do?
6
You lost me at "gadfly." Khashoggi was a serious thinker and writer. He wasn't a gadfly.
1
Socrates was a great thinker and teacher, a philosopher even in fifth century BC Athens. He compared himself to a gadfly in his defense speech at his capital trial. JK as a gadfly is in good company; nothing pejorative about the simile at all.
1
The Saudi government has been criminally inclined for years but we fool ourselves that because 5 women are allowed to drive for a week the government can be compared with say Norway's. How much criminal destruction of Yemen has to continue for us to understand what the Saudi government amounts to?
7
We need to see Trumps tax returns. Now.
The emoluments clause needs to be invoked. Now.
We need to squash a budding autocrat in our Oval Office. Right now.
20
H said those six million Jews must have committed mass suicide. He was strong and forthright and he promised to investigate. Anyway, we've got some pending arms sales with him and I don't want American workers to lose money. So...huh? What? Shut up, Jared.
#realdonaldtrumpfakepresident
6
The Prseident is only interested in learning 'his' truth, a pluasible denial by the Royal Family. He has no interest whatsoever in the real truth. I do not believe there will be a true investigation. That would involve interviewing the authorities at the Saudi emabassy and the 15 individuals on the plane. I doubt the Saudi government would turn them over. I would only trust INTERPOL and/or the FBI to conduct the investigation.
3
There is a different feeling in the air on this sad debacle - it seems like the American reality show has finally jumped the shark. This disgusting display of amorality, on top of the continued separation of migrant and immigrant children from their families (no, we haven't forgotten), has permanently torn down the curtains on the White House. Mr. Chump, that man with the power who stands behind those drapes, is getting played over and over, at our and countless innocent lives' expense.
To honor Mr Kashoggi's life and his work, the fourth estate must be given even more support and protection to continue its vital role in holding power in check. Too many journalists have sacrificed their lives, and many more have been intimidated to stop their work. You have my respect and support for hard work well done.
13
Trump does not condemn murderous autocrats; he admires them. He aspires to become one of them. The GOP is okay with that.
While Graham may have forgotten himself and condemned the Saudis, he will remember which side his bread is buttered on and join Trump in pretending that everything is normal and above board any minute now. If he wants to become a member of the cabinet, he must demonstrate loyalty to the don - just like the rest of the wrecking crew.
Interestingly, Trump willingly believes "strong denials" from the likes of Putin, Duterte, MBS, and Kavanugh when it serves his purpose, even when the evidence points the other way. White men (well, most of these are) can do as they please with the rest of us as long as Trump gets what he wants. His faithful cultists willingly believe in the same way everything Trump says.
10
Trump admires this man and the Saudi regime. Let that sink in.
8
Pompeo didn't go there to find out what happened - for that it would suffice to summon the Saudi ambassador in DC to the White House.
No, he went there to help the Saudi leadership in their cover-up. All smiles, no talk of the facts, and criticism.
As always, Trump (and by extension Kushner) is in it for himself. Perhaps he wants a Trump tower in Riad (maybe he already has one, it's just an example), or some other perk that benefits him personally. So the order of the day is damage control, distraction, downplaying. Kushner probably needs money from the Saudis, so don't wait for a word of criticism from him.
The Saudis had the means and the motive, and can't show one piece of evidence that would defend their side of the story, all we hear from them is hot air - but doesn't that seem familiar?
6
Jamal Khashoggi was not a billionaire, nor was he powerful. Furthermore, he wrote for the Washington Post. Why would anyone expect our current president to care what happened to him? And let's not forget that Saudi Arabia presented our current president with a gold medal when he visited there. No chance he will turn against them.
6
The "rogue killer" excuse from trump is too lame for anyone to believe. At least it should be. I spent almost 20 years with the Department of State overseas and was in charge of security at our consulates in Osaka, Japan and Melbourne, Australia between 2002 and 2009. Unauthorized personnel cannot gain access to diplomatic facilities. Rogue killers are no exception.
10
With $100 million showing up in American banks (but whose, I wonder) - I guess we now know the price of a human life. Or the price of a journalist's life.
6
Trump's blathering about the Saudis being "guilty until proven innocent" is a perverse justification that uses a fundamental American protection given to an individual who is accused of a crime by the state.
"Innocent until proven guilty" does not apply to an authoritarian government flailing around in an attempt to cover-up a crime against one of its own citizens.
6
"If Saudi Arabia is allowed to get away with some lame story about the apparent murder of Mr. Khashoggi, the world’s growing gang of autocrats will feel even less constraint. "
For Trump, this is a feature, not a bug.
5
Makes me wonder if Trump hotel in NYC that posted it's first increase in cash since the inauguration, due in part to the Saudis visit, has anything to do with it? I mean if Trump says something the prince doesn't like, he can stay at another hotel elsewhere.
6
The Saudi cover-up is the billions-worth contracts signed and invested in the American economy to benefit American people and millionnaire businesses. That will never crumble. Ever.
2
Lecturing about Trump is a lesson in pointlessness. It is like yelling at a brick of cheese (no insult to cheese intended). He has sold out America and when truth is served up, it is fake news. America has been had and it is up to us to make a strong statement on November 6.
8
To more clearly point out the obvious: "Trump repeatedly suggested that the strength of Salman's denial was indicative of innocence ... You might recognize that language of denial from Trump. He uses it a LOT -- to defend people who he views as allies or who support his agenda ... Trump believes the denials he wants to believe -- or needs to believe. Unfortunately, those denials are sometimes -- often -- rebutted by facts, and Trump seems not to pay any heed to that reality." (Chris Cillizza, CNN, 15Oct2018) " ... an autopsy specialist carrying a bone saw was among 15 Saudi operatives who flew in and out of Istanbul the day Mr. Khashoggi disappeared." An interrogation gone wrong? Sounds like it went exactly as the Saudi Prince intended.
10
@Steve Kennedy Exactly. The strength of denial was loud and clear in the Kavanaugh hearings. When Kavanaugh completely lost it and ranted like an angry 4 year old and Lindsay Graham repeated the performance, the REAL MEN cheered. Oh, listen, they told us - so much passion, so much anger means he is innocent. Hmmmmm. So when Putin and Salman both showed "strength" I guess we all have to believe them, no matter how outrageous the lie.
2
First of all, someone please explain to Trump the difference between Inquisitorial (Napoleonic) Justice and Adversarial Justice.
In many parts of the world, legal systems do revolve around guilty (accused) and then you're responsible for proving YOUR innocence.
3
Remember - everything is about what’s good for Trump and his family. He cozies up to Russia because he has laundered money for them for years and he wants to build hotels there. He has done big business with the Saudis. He doesn’t CARE what these regimes do. He has no feeling whatsoever about our image on the world stage. It’s all about Trump and his money. Why can’t people SEE this? It’s not complicated or mysterious. It’s that simple. Follow the money.
12
What happened to the admission that he died accidentally while being interrogated? Which sounds like murder, especially given the horrific disposal of his body.
5
Well, there's definitely a whole lot of "denial" going on somewhere.
2
Trump has this all backwards. Why did our Sec of State go to Saudi Arabia? MBS and his private plane passengers should come here and answer to Congress - or no arms deal.
5
In the eyes of the rest of the world, it must surly appear to be a case of one of the Trump Families capos ,Pompeo,simply rushing to reassure one of their close client states that the Boss-of-Bosses who now sits in the White House will continue to cover for them. All that's needed is for the Saudis to be sure they have the pay-offs and lucre ready when the Familes consigliere ,Jared Kushner, visits the Saudi's so-called 'Davos in the Desert' next week, outside of Riyadh. My own take is is that the Trump Family makes the Corleone's of Mario Puzo's 'Godfather seem like the Mickey Mouse Club.
6
@Birddog-- it appears that West Point training Pompeo has did not affect him much. Duty, Honor, Country? Nah, not when Trump is president.
1
The surest sign of guilt is Trump proclaiming your innocence.His next reality show will be called “Trump defender of the Guilty”.The leader of Saudi Arabia will now be known as the Evil Prince. Even Trump’s long time lawyer Michael Cohen cannot save Saudi Arabia. Guilty.
5
There's no surprise that Trump is defending the Saud's, after all, dictators need to stick together.
And if more reason was needed, simply look at all the money that Saudi Arabia invests in U.S. companies, and the more than cozy relationship it's had with some of our former Presidents.
If anyone is looking for justice to come out of this, don't waste your time.
3
In a string of implausible lies, farfetched assertions, and changing stories, the simpering president and his secretary of state are dishonestly covering up for the Saudi prince and autocrat who almost certainly personally directed the torture, murder, and dismemberment of a Washington Post columnist. The journalist had been critical of the regime. The president and his family have been very friendly with the prince.
This is a horrible crime. It is also a betrayal of bedrock American values, namely, free speech and the free press. Moreover, it is an outright attack on democratic principles and a furtherance by this White House of autocracy and fascism. Likely ongoing and future payments by the Saudis into Trump pockets cannot be ignored.
The prince has promised to carry out his own investigation into whether or not he himself did this. The grinning, servile Mr. Pompeo is satisfied with that inanity. It's like asking Trump to investigate the credible accusations that he himself conspired with Russia to steal an election, obstructed justice, abused his power, violated the emoluments clause, fulfilled the requirements of his office, or is a fit president.
That is nothing but the truth. It sounds, however, like wild hyperbole. It sounds just like a Trump Fox Republican conspiracy theory. But this is true. The White House is doing precisely what the Republicans have been falsely accusing the Democrats of for years. Truth is imitating fiction. This is what we have come to.
7
When a dictatorship's lies are in question, it's always good to have a friend like Trump, who on the heels of his latest success has shown his aptitude for covering up lies and distract from a thorough, lawful accounting. The rest of the world will watch in disgust if not horror, and this was a US resident with children who are American citizens, but that never stops Trump, especially if it's a member of the press.
Hopefully external pressures expose Trump's amoral underpinnings, and the truth comes out. Anything less is bad for the US, bad for Saudis, and bad for journalists everywhere. But it's good for dictatorships (and aspiring dictators).
4
Yes, Police Department, this is Hannibal Lector. You’d like to question me about my nextdoor neighbor who came here yesterday. I see. Of course I’d love to talk to you; however, I’m in the middle of housekeeping. I need to paint the bathroom walls and bleach the tub. Then- sure, maybe we could chat over lunch!
11
Nothing can justify the torture/murder of Khashoggi, and an important US ally should suffer consequences for such an action -- but not consequences that seriously endanger a critical US relationship. Interestingly, this editorial -- as well as a good deal of coverage elsewhere in the American press -- has omitted the important fact that Khashoggi has been a long-time activist in the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization that has supported terrorism and seeks to use "democratic means" to install an Islamic theocracy across the Islamic patrimony. "Democratic means" is put in quotation marks because such a theocratic regime would likely cease having elections once it is installed or would conduct shame elections. Prince Salman is right to confront the Brotherhood, though this brutal murder isn't the way -- morally or politically. It is also the case that numerous members of the US Establishment -- whether in the CIA, NSA, top media figures -- have long maintained quiet support for the Brotherhood -- for reasons which are indefensible and seemed tied to the Old School Arabism that dogged the US State Department and British Foreign Service for eons.
2
Very true. Whereas his murder cannot be condoned in any way, he was a guy who identified with a terrorist organization, the Moslem Brotherhood.
As someone who was born and raised in the Middle East I also agree with your comments about the Arabists who populate our intelligence agencies and our State Department. They are the grandchildren of the China hands who lost China after World War II.
Our ignorance of history is appalling.
@Dr. Svetistephen--Just stop. Nobody is going to accept your victim blaming.
3
We already know how this plays out.
The Saudis will deny that they deliberately tortured this poor reporter to death to send a message to the world not to dare to criticize MBS. Because the message has now been sent.
They will keep coming up with flimsy absurd excuse after excuse.
Trump will say he believes them each time, and Pompeo will say the same.
Trump will indignantly posture and accuse the accusers (we're already into that with him comparing this to accusations against Kavanaugh).
Democrats and Republicans will rail against MBS.
Several Republicans (right now Graham and Rubio) will talk REALLY tough about how this has to change.
Democrats will rail, too.
Trump won't bend to Congress, just to Saudi Arabia, and his red-hats will jam up the phone lines and email boxes of GOP Congress persons telling them they BETTER support Trump and some Republicans will start to peel off from the harsh criticism.
Then more Republicans will peel off, Ryan and McConnell will make more and more conciliatory speeches.
Dems will continue to rail.
Every Republican, including Graham and Rubio, will cave like all their brethren did (a few dems like Manchin might as well) and defend Trump.
Only Dems will be left standing against this gruesome murder. As will Turkey.
And Mohammed bin Salman will get away with it, with his weak, fake, denials that are obvious lies and HE WON'T CARE because, like Trump said about Kavanaugh, he won!
That is what will happen. Bet on it.
9
Whats one more murder by the Saudi's, when the atrocities continue in Yemen, with side assistance from the US military and it's chief supporter, donald. The whole episode will pass, unless some political courage arises from the US congress. Not holding any hope on that one happening.
5
This Editorial is, as always, more an attack on Mr. Trump than a thorough analysis of what the Saudis did and what we know so far.
1
@Wilfrido Freire You are darn right this is an article concerning Trump’s softness on yet another of the world’s autocrats getting away with thuggery and murder. Trump is supposed to be representing the morals and values of the Units States. Is this what we are now as a nation? Just another autocratic regime led by the autocrat Trump and family? November 6th can’t come soon enough for this voter.
5
@Homer
Same here, but I'll be voting Republican.
And as far as morals and values go have you forgotten all the dictators and thugs the USA has supported throughout history.
. Batista
. Trujillo
. Pinochet
. Joao Goulart
. Park Chung-Hee
.Islam Karimov
.Abdel Fattah el-Sisi[30]
.Somoza
.Torrijos
.The Shah
.Marcos
.Tito
.Stalin
To name a few. And, I agree we should wait to get the facts before we jump to conclusions. Remember Kavanaugh
This is one of the worst things the US has ever been involved in and if it's true then the cover-up is worse than the crime.
Hatred of Iran has blinded us about our "friends" the Saudis.
13
The hostile and virulent regime in the United States deeply admires the ways the Saud and other dictatorial strong men deal with their "problems"--- silencing by beheading, lopping off limbs by bone saw while the victim is still alive qnd screaming as the Sauds tame Doctor Death listens to music. How long before OUR journalists begin to be killed? We all know that both Drumpf and Pence have no morals and no qualms about torture or extrajudicial killing. It's only a matter of time.
7
A congressional inquiry must be convened after the mid-term elections. Are Trump and his advisers illegally beholden to the Saudis?
5
@Sherlock Trump already pronounced in one of his speeches he has sold 40 to 50 million in apartments to the Saudis. Yes, Trump and his sons and daughter and Jared Kushner are making 10’s of millions from the Saudis. Emoluments clause was supposed to keep this from happening. Why isnt it being invoked? And the GOP Congress is allowing this to go on and on without a peep.
1
Lindsey Graham will be playing golf with Trump and MBS in no time at all.
Then he'll tell us he made his point by destroying MBS on the course.
Graham talks loudly and carries a twig, not s stick.
Par for the course.
8
According to Turkey the assassins brought with them a bone saw. Presumably they saw it on baggage x-rays. Why didn't they release the image?
5
Will this be the Valentines Day event for the " Mob " running things now days. I realize it`s not Valentines Day and it`s only one murder but the valentines Day Massacre was an awakening to the depth of violence in the Mobs then and this could be the awakening to the indiscriminate violence the Thugs and Oligarchs running this world are so quick to use. This needs to kept front page to expose the lack of accountability Thugs like MBS, Putin and trump think they are entitled to. If they can get away with lying then they can lie about murder and get away with it.
5
I've been amused and/or horrified over the years at the willingness of leaders in the middle east to lie: just make outrageous statements clearly contradicted by the facts. It's not just the Saudis; the behavior seems endemic to the region, well beyond the tendency of all political leaders to spin. I wonder if it might actually be a good thing that we now have a president capable of playing the same game.
2
@rawebb1--this isn't a game.
2
Simply because Mr. Khashoggi is not a US citizen, does not mean that we have to just ignore and forget about this whole incident. Mr. Khashoggi is a journalist, and a member of the global media. We value and champion democratic ideals.
When we, in the US voice our concern and anger, it helps to check undemocratic practices. There is no other country that comes forward. If we do nothing, we are encouraging current authoritarian regimes and even motivate the growth of dictatorships around the world. And, that would soon become the norm.
11
Saudi Arabia isn't an "ally." There's no treaty of alliance between the U.S. and the Kingdom. They are a "client state," and they really should be reminded of that.
13
The brutal murder of Mr. Khashoggi by the government of Saudi Arabia cannot be allowed to stand without serious responses from the rest of the civilized world. This is not just about the murder of one person, though that is more than important in its own case, but it concerns the defense of basic morality essential for the functioning of a humane world. Since it cannot be a surprise that any form of moral leadership has come from the executive branch of the United States, this should not prevent the citizens of this country from demanding that our government insist on the highest moral and legal standards in dealing with this murder. We live in a democracy in which there is an obligation for each of us to be an advocate for freedom, justice, and decency. If we lived in Saudi Arabia the existence of this newspaper, editorial, and even these reader's comments would be subject to arrest, torture, and even death. A plea for justice in case of the murder of Mr. Khashoggi should be part of our overall defense certain universal human values.
10
Reports out of Turkey according to other major news outlets indicate that Mr. Khashoggi was killed minutes after having arrived at the consulate--no interrogation or need for same.
And how could a kidnapping "go wrong" when you have total control of the person in a secure facility? And why send 15 agents, including a forensic scientist with bone cutting equipment, other than to perform the horrendous deed?
And why deny access to the consular residence where "Mr. Khashoggi" was apparently taken and where his remains may still be? This after delays in allowing access to the consulate where reports from Turkey indicated "clean up crews" had used toxic materials and fresh paint in an attempt to destroy evidence of the horrific facts.
Mr. Trump efforts to protect as opposed to investigate Saudi Arabia have made him an accessory after the fact to Mr. Khashoggi's murder and the coverup thereof.
8
Trump is an abysmal president. Huge reckless tax cuts. Climate change malpractice that will have dire consequences. Total support to Saudi Arabia with their long record of support of terrorism. The Saudi genocide in Yemen facilitated with US weapons and advice. Arms deals to Saudis and in turn investments in the Trump rip off empire. Trump is such a political disaster for the country. John Brennan besides being Obama's drone guru was Obama's point man in Saudi Arabia. The bipartisan lobbyist facilitating Saudi interests, money talks decency walks.
12
I’m awestruck by the synchronicity of events in this human tragedy:
1. Jamal Khashoggi enters the Saudi embassy in Turkey, having left the US without knowledge that there was “chatter” about his being sought by the Saudis.
2. Members of MBS’s security squad also enter embassy along with the Royal autopsy specialist, whose bone saw was of particular interest to Khashoggi (potential focus of a soon-to-be-written Washington Post column?)
3. A raucous reunion among Saudi compatriots ensues, resulting in the disarming of the facility’s video security system and rendering impossible a careful tally of living-persons-entering vs living-persons-leaving on that fateful day.
4. Turkish officials suspect that something untoward may have occurred, and they determine that the best course of action is to release a US hostage - a minister whose return delivers the Evangelical vote on Nov 4.
6
This case has several interesting aspects to it.
1. Turkey claims it has audio/video evidence, but has not produced it and on one has seen it. Do we really trust Erdogan in this matter?
2. Why would the Saudis murder him in their consulate, as opposed to kidnapping him and taking him back to Riyyadh? Trying him and then executing him. Killing him in the Consulate seems like a dumb thing to do.
3. Geopolitically we need Saudi Arabia to hold back Iran from spreading its influence over much of the Middle East. Thus we don’t want to create a big firestorm over this. After all he was a Saudi citizen.
4. Journalist haven been killed and/disappeared before in Foreign countries and we never make much of an issue about it.
52
@judyweller..."3. Geopolitically we need Saudi Arabia to hold back Iran from spreading its influence over much of the Middle East.".....Seems you fell for the con job. Saudi Arabia's major export is oil. Iran's major export is oil. The difference is that American oil companies are engaged with Saudi Arabia and they are not engaged with Iran. Remember the Iran Nuclear agreement? It was negotiated in conjunction with France, Great Britain, Germany, Russia, and China, and widely endorsed by the EU, the UN and etc. So what made it a such "terrible deal"? Simple. It removed sanctions from Iran which allowed them to freely sell their oil. More oil on the international market means a lower oil price, less money for the Saudis, less money for the American oil companies, and no telling what kind of financial deal Kushner has with the Saudis. So it has to be a bad deal, Trump has to break the nuclear agreement with Iran and return the sanctions. The international price of oil goes up, the Saudis make more money, the American oil companies make more money, and Kushner keeps his Saudi financial arrangement. Bottom line, Iran has to be the dreaded enemy and you have been had.
4
@judyweller
1. It may be that the sources are "bugs" in the consulate, and they don't wish to reveal that. Secondly, Khashoggi's fiancee was outside of the consulate waiting on him to exit. Let's not forget, he was there to pick up paperwork to allow him to marry a Turkish citizen. She claims that he did not leave.
2.I agree, it is a stupid move. Nevertheless, the story seems to be that he was killed in the consulate after a "botched interrogation." Why they did not bring him to SA, who knows?
3. He may have been a Saudi citizen, but he was in Turkey, not in Saudi Arabia. Additionally, he is a resident of the United States and regularly contributes to columns for the Washington Post. Why is the topic of Iran being dragged into this? A crime was committed. You do not simply murder someone without trial, and supposedly dismember their corpse, deny what happened, etc. etc. One ought to be aware of who his/her "ally" is, and hold them accountable for crimes, especially one as heinous- not to mention very much in the public eye- as this one.
4. I think the issue here is that he has ties to the US as being part of the media. His presence is not irrelevant to those of us in the States.
1
@judyweller
Typically, an Embassy isn't used as a "Kill Zone" Unless you view killing your citizens in an embassy on foreign soil as "OK", it's an egregious breach of diplomacy
2
There's a religious war in the Middle East, the same as we saw in Ireland between Protestants and Catholics. Saudi Arabia is determined to advance Sunni influence over Shiites in Iran, Yemen, and Lebanon. America doesn't have a dog in that fight regardless of western propaganda against Iran as part of the Axis of Evil, and we should stop arms sales that support the religious war of Saudi Arabia.
6
The 911 perpetrators were Saudis, as was Osama Bin-Laden. Bush chose to go after Saddam Hussein and Iraq, leaving Bin-Laden alone. In this case, Trump is busy with going after Iran and leaving Saudis to do their thing. Is there a pattern? Why did it take until Obama to deal with Bin-Laden? Just wondering.
19
@Harpo Money. Greed. Lots of money to be made by U.S. oligarchs. Did I answer correctly?
3
Mr. Trump is more interested in adopting these tactics himself, than in censoring the Saudis for employing them.
7
Trump will continue to use lame excuses to back anyone/any country in which he thinks he can make a profit personally. There is a reason why the emoluments clause was written. The reason it’s never been used is because there has never been blatant misuse of power for personal gain from any POTUS in history. Trump will continue these lame excuses, making it sound like he is worried about US jobs, when the reality is that he is worried about his next hotel on the Red Sea Project.
14
Any Saudi government complicity in Khashoggi’s murder is unworthy of the regimen with responsibility for Islam’s holiest sites. Islam’s teachings utterly condemn such inhumane treatment and killing of an innocent person. The Saudis responsible for this crime must be punished.
It’s no defense of the Saudi regime’s murder of Jamal Khashoggi to point out that his death may at long last generate enough international tension that will lead to United Nations condemnation, censure and sanctions of any state committing such a crime.
Among the governments, of course, suspected of targeted killings of individuals on foreign soil without trial is our government.
Hence President Trump ought to lead by example, promising that we will use (or “aid”) international prosecution of Khashoggi’s killers, and that our government will not commit such heinous, barbarous and uncivilized crimes.
4
The President's response so far has been confused and obsequious. He better figure this out right away and fashion a response appropriate to his position. I still see aircraft flying into American buildings. Wahhabism still smolders behind this monarchy.
8
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the Turks claim to have audio and video tapes of this alleged murder ? If so, shouldn't be a lot of mystery here.
4
Trump was obviously hypnotized in that bizarre Saudi "Orb" ritual, so let's cut him a break on this one.
This would be a tough one even for a "competent" president who was really trying, much less a wanna be authoritarian nincompoop like Trump.
And the fact that it happened in Turkey makes it even more awesome. Who knows what really happened here, other than a Saudi is dead by Saudi hands.
I'm not so sure we even have standing in this situation to get involved, and if we did, Trump certainly is never going to be the one to make that case, let's be honest.
Can't wait to see the movie, though.
3
@JayK--The man was a permanent resident, on his way to becoming a US. citizen. What do we stand for? Looking the other way?
1
@Pat
I honestly don't know what we stand for anymore.
And if we did, do you think Trump would fly that banner?
That was really tongue in cheek cynicism that basically went over like a led zeppelin, don't get hung up on it, I overcook things once in a while just to amuse myself.
Even the "positive" spin is negative: a bad kidnapping? Saudis buy lots of weapons from us? And how might they use those weapons? The old cliche about capitalists comes to mind.
6
How are we to get to the bottom of anything with Secret Service running interference on questioning Jared Kushner. Apparently Secret Service now protect from the Press?
6
@That's what she said--not too long ago, the Secret Service prevented legal papers from being served on Jared. The company had to go to Court to get a Judge to stop that nonsense. He's our own special Prince!
2
I don't understand how anyone can say that "Saudi Arabia is an important American ally in the Middle East ..." . Saudi Arabia is the birth place -- and international center-- of Wahabiism, the most extremist Islamic sect, as well as the former headquarters of Osama bin Laden and his ilk. Furthermore, all of the weapons that we sell the Saudis are used to support in Yemen and neighboring countries. What has Saudi Arabia ever done to advance peace in the Middle East? Nothing significant whatsoever. They do not deserve the military support that we provide them. It is counter productive to say the least and only serves to increase tension in the region.
13
1 Russia didn't meddle in our 2016 election.
2 The Saudi family is innocent of abduction, murder and butchering an American journalist.
A pattern is emerging.
8
Don't say what Trump is inclined to believe. The man is a pathological liar. What he's doing is supporting the lies of the Saudis, period. We can guess why he's doing this, but don't say he believes it--that ascribes way more good faith to him than he deserves.
12
@CaseWrker....Trump believes every thing he says is true. Because he thinks he is the "greatest" everything he says must therefore be true by definition.
1
When did America become the friend of despots? Russia, North Korea, Saudi Arabia, the list goes on. And for some reason, we are fighting with our allies in Europe and Canada.
Let's not forget: Osama bin Laden was a Saudi, and from a family closely tied to Saudi royalty.
Trump is not a Republican - and does not advance American values. We stand for freedom and fight despots. He is doing the opposite.
504
@Matthew - YOU KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT ? When it suits American interests! But DJT has taken it to a whole new level - any time he says "Guilty until proven innocent" you know he's (for once) telling the truth!!
@Matthew S
"Trump is not a Republican..."
Oh yes he is. The burden is on other Republicans to show they are not Trumpists. Don't hold your breath.
@Matthew S To answer your first question, in November 2016 when Trump was 'elected' president and it keeps getting worse and worse. Our allies speak and he mocks. Our 'enemies' speak and he concurs and even cheers. God help us.
Criminal autocrats ( are there any other kind?) defended by the wanna be autocrat.
If you think your money is safe if this kind of political environment business people, I have a bridge to sell you.
3
The killing of Khashoggi was the ghastly action of a repressive regime.
It is sad and shocking, but normal in a sense.
A large part of the world is an ugly place ruled by authoritarians who brutally repress their own people, and we have no problem dealing with them. Liberals support good relations with Cuba and Iran. Conservatives support good relations with Saudi Arabia and Egypt. These are just a few examples.
Do we imagine that these countries don’t imprison and kill citizens deemed dangerous to regime power? Or that they have transparent democracies?
Please, let’s end the faux outrage from liberals and conservatives alike. The hypocrisy is deafening.
Let’s accept the fact that our relations are based on the economic, military, and political importance of each country. This has always been the case and always will be. And always should be.
We don’t have the luxury of only dealing with exemplary democracies or the firepower/willpower to impose democracy on them. We must therefore hold our noses and deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it were.
2
"President Trump still seems inclined to buy the kingdom’s lame denials."
How about the truth? "President Trump supports their coverup."
12
There is no point to trust Trump as he has a long business relation and very close (mostly secret) financial interests involved with the Saudis for long. They surely have many secrets that Trump and his clan members would not like to get published in public domain.
It's the Congress, basically the Republican party, that need to act in terms of Congressional actions, and act beyond theatrics and public posturing to fooling its ignorant vote bank. But I seriously doubt that GOP leadership in the Congress will do that for various reasons that we know. GOP's actions would only be limited to cheap talk and theatrics mainly targeted towards its Islamophobic Christian fundamentalist vote bank- as some GOP leaders like Lindsey Graham are dishing out.
4
"Here we go again....guilty until proven innocent..."
There is already sufficient evidence to indict and try 15 assassins, an unknown number of leaders and those complicit. They are of course innocent until proven guilty. That is a truism. And it's also hypocritical in the extreme...
This is the man who lead and still leads chants to "lock her up". Innocent until proven guilty? The man with sexual harassment complaints from 17 women and Stormy Daniels awaiting trial. Who settled out of court on his bogus Trump University. Who used and abused bankruptcy and tax laws all his life. Kavanaugh had a bad drinking problem and most likely committed sexual assault and other misdemeanor crimes under the influence but it will take a Democratic House to uncover White House meddling in the judicial process and the truth of allegations.
True, no one has been convicted yet and like the Saudi's all are innocent until proven guilty. That is very different from 'presumed innocent' by an increasingly well-informed public. And in the larger court of US and global citizenry Trump, Kavanaugh and the Saudi's are guilty. GUILTY until proven innocent....!
7
Here's the bottom line with this very nasty affair: If Obama could use drones to kill American citizens in foreign lands--why shouldn't the Saudis be permitted to knock off a few that they don't particularly like? It was their embassy, a little piece of Saudi Arabia, so to speak, in Turkey, right?
Seems "moral" hypocrisy is the greater sin here. But who's counting--not the CIA, NSC, or the deep-swamp, it seems.
3
@Alice's Restaurant
Sorry, your analogy is faulty.
Those "American" citizens in "foreign" lands were part of an international criminal terrorist syndicate and were on the record as being sworn to the DESTRUCTION of the USA.
3
@matty
You don't kill citizens without due process--this is not China, Russia, or North Korean, right?
And by the way, all analogies are false--English 1A. Some are better than others.
@Alice's Restaurant--Your comment is absurd. Context matters. Morality matters. To most of us, that is.
1
Are we, the outraged public, getting burned out yet? Story after story of what would have been morally reprehensible behavior in the past now comes out every week. Are we still reacting with moral outrage? Or is learned helplessness finally settling in? Do we really think the Republicans are going to go under this great Blue Wave? I know the NYT keeps talking about it (and I wish they would hush up - the best wave is a silent one) but I have seen little sign of it.
As a democrat living in Texas all I see is rising support for the autocratic ugliness that Trump is wielding with no repercussions whatsoever. No one seems unduly worried about a Muslim being murdered by a bunch of other Muslims in a Muslim country. Sure, it is an international scandal but here in this great Red state even his lamest explanation is happily swallowed hook, line and sinker.
9
It's time for the NYT Editorial Board to take a position pushing for MBS's removal from power given his very disturbing track record. The ruthlessness exhibited with the Khashoggi murder does not bode well for the future of Saudi Arabia, its citizens, its neighbors, or the world. This is a man who threatens all to get his way.
3
So a bunch of official killers fly into a sovereign nation and kill someone they don't like, on foreign soil, without any judicial process. And we rightfully condemn such an action.
Isn't that exactly what we did in Pakistan when we eliminated Osama Bin Laden? And everyone cheered?
I didn't like Al Qaeda, to say the least. My cousin was on one of the planes the hit the World Trade Center. But we are a nation that lives by the rule of law. Or at least we say we are. We simply do not have the moral high ground anymore.
I guess the only question is who does it.
1
@Peter Fenn
No, it's not the same thing, but you obviously need to be told why.
Osama Bin Laden was not an investigative journalist.
Osama Bin Laden was not visiting a Saudi consulate in order to get a marriage annulment certificate.
Osama Bin Laden was responsible for the deaths of nearly 3,000 innocent American citizens.
3
@Peter Fenn. Osama bin Laden was a proven mass killer. We made no secret of our desire to eliminate him. Kashoggi was a writer, as far as any one knows not responsible for the death of thousands of innocent people, and only the Saudis had a grudge against him, and rivaled bin Laden in how they plotted and carried.out his horrific torture and murder, which they are now, with the full knowledge and consent of the United States Government, attempting to cover up and lie about. Bin Laden bragged about his killing; how long before the Saudis and Trump do the same? How long before US writers are murdered? How long before Democratic politicians are murdered? Protestors? Online posters who do not toe the newly minted dictators party line, with the full compliance of the newly installed abuser on the US Supreme Court giving permission? Only a.matter of.time.
Nothing exposes the wanton hypocrisy of Washington’s neocon/neoliberal foreign policy like the seemingly unconditional bipartisan support for the Saudi autocracy and its attendant murderous theocracy.
The American mainstream corporate media is forever going on about how the US spreads democracy and defends human rights through economic embargo and military interventionism. And yet, here we are, defending the vicious murderer who now rules Saudi Arabia. Worse still, selling him billions of dollars of military ordnance so he can slaughter bus-loads of school children in Yemen.
And, pray tell, where are the Liberal voices calling vociferously for bombings as they did in Syria? As for Trump and the Republicans, they had best watch it: Covering up for this barbaric regime could end up hurting them badly.
2
Last night I was watching a you tube recording of supporters of Ted Cruz facing off supporters of Beto O'Rourke and I was saddened by the single issue that united the Ted Cruz supporters - immigration.
Republicans know the weak spots of their voters - guns, religion, immigration and abortion - and play them like a fiddle. The age old British tactic of divide and rule, and rule by fear of the other.
These voters don't care if their leaders are corrupt to the core, or if they are morally bankrupt or about climate change or if the country is divided or if democracy itself is at stake here. There is no difference between Red states republican voters and voters in Pakistan.
They deserve what they get. Unfortunately the rest of us and world at large suffers.
6
The republican congress gone rogue long time ago, and dragging our country on the same path. That's what they did with almost half of the country population, that's what resulted in electing rogue, lawless, criminal president with half indicted criminal entourage.
Unless we got rid of this cancer that eating the country alive, we will no longer have just and lawful country, will be joining the house of Saud, the Kremlin gangsters, the Duterte rule, the Sisi military junta and the rest of them.
Again, almost half of our country doesn't really care and can't be bothered with concept of morality, and maybe it's not completely their fault, we been lacking moral ground for decades, not too many role models emerged that people could follow and emulate.
But the most important thing right now is to get rid of the swampland in our government.
Democrats you must lead by example and live and govern beyond any reproach and innuendo.
End the all consuming corruption, end the lies, end the spin.
NO MORE!!!
VOTE DEMOCRATS!
12
Many of the 9/11 hijackers were saudis. The gop invaded iraq with no credible evidence that iraq was developing nukes. They backed out of the iran deal with no proof iran is enriching uranium. Now they are mollycoddling the saudis after a horrific and grisly act of cross border terrorism, it is all about oil and hating iran.
411
@observer Whatever else this is about, it isn't about oil. This is no doubt much more about the right's tribalism in general, and Trump's narcissism in particular. Those denouncing the killing are almost entirely those that Trump and his followers detest: American and European liberals, the UN, etc. The loony right has gone so far down their "own the libs" path that they have to oppose anything such people support -- even if that means defending the torture and killing of a journalist with American ties. And since Trump made such a big splash with his conference in Saudi Arabia early in his presidency, he has even more reason to defend the Saudis.
And to all of THAT add whatever business deals Trump has with the Saudis and his own authoritarian aspirations, and you have multiple layers of reasons for Trump to take the position he has taken without ever getting to oil.
2
@observer
The Saudi participation in 9/11 was so deep that the Bush administration had to arrange for Saudi's in the US to fly home quickly after 9/11. At a time when 100% of our government's attention should have been on the disasters, resulting from these attacks, Bush had enough bandwidth to take care of his Saudi friends.
Wealthy Saudi's bankrolled the 9/11 terrorists.
2
@observer
Yes but Benjamin Netanyahu and Vladimir Putin are both smiling and smirking about their mutual dummy pet puppet pawn aka Donald Trump.
1
If something went awry then where is the body?
2
@Mike
By all accounts it was dismembered...did you somehow miss that part?
2
Trump and the gop are trying to protect the oil imports and arms exports to saudi arabia. The saudis are using US supplied arms to kill civilians in yemen as well. The saudis have blackmailed the US on oil and arms, again and Trump has curled up like a pussycat and surrendered
5
There's no way to lipstick this pig. There's no excuse or story that Saudi Arabia can tell that makes it much better.
"He died accidentally while we were interrogating him" ... right. Tortured to death. You think that's a better story than "we just shot him?" I sure don't!
Salman only has two options here:
1. the killing of Thomas a Becket -- good luck pulling that one off.
And for those of you who like history, the killers were exiled to the crusades and Henry II walked bareback through the streets of London being ceremoniously flogged in penitence.
Salman would need to hang people who he doesn't want to hang, and probably cannot really afford to hang.
2. Do the Trump thing: brag about it.
Trump and Pompeo are trying to rescue Trump's gambit against Iran, trying to save an alliance with Saudi Arabia.
Trump's problem isn't the Saudis -- in reality this debacle greatly strengthens Trump's hand in dealing with them. Trump's problem is the American public ... and that of the rest of the world.
Viewed in the cold hard world of realpolitik Iran is a far larger threat to American interests than is Saudi Arabia ... oil or no oil.
Salman and Trump have little option now other than to play Caligula: "Oderint dum Metuant." (They may hate us, so long as they fear us.)
US and Saudi interests align in wanting to end Iran's military power. The US strategy to do this is to crush its economy, expecting an internal revolution.
What could possibly go wrong?
2
@Lee Harrison
Iran is not a greater threat than the Saudis. Iran is seen as protecting Muslims, Saudis are seen as brutalizing and exploitative.
Terrorists are being bred every day from Saudi brutalizing, and Americans become targets when we are seen as complicit with them. I would bet that 2 young men join up for every child our taxpayer-funded bombs kill in Yemen.
Meantime you can thank Obama for lessening the Iranian threat with the Iran deal, which our realpolitik European friends are keeping going in spite of US stupidity in pulling out.
1
Now we can act. First we must thank Obama for freeing us from oil obeisance to the most corrupt and violent individuals in the world. Obama also laid the groundwork for us today by ridding the planet of the Saudis’ main export, terrorists led by bin Laden, and ruthlessly pursuing ISIS while trying to minimize civilian damage.
Now is the time to re-assess the Saudis with a hard clear eye. They have not only gotten worse, they have learned how to put lipstick on the pig.
Saudi actions and U.S. Republican complicity together are in the process of re-igniting terrorism. This is a far greater direct threat to Americans than Iran or North Korea.
5
I can't understand why Khassogi went into that building knowing that something bad was about to happen to him. The fact that he set his watch to record shows that he thought he might be in danger. I know he wanted to get his marriage papers but at what price to his own well being. Was it his final attempt to show how evil the Saudi government is? I fear that he gave his life in vain to a new world order where sin and corruption are the norm. How can we expect our morally bankrupt President to think of anything except how much money he can get from the Saudis?
3
As if this President is capable of anything more than caring about money money money. Particularly his. Article must stop stating that it's even possible.
7
If the autocratic Trumpists allow the autocratic Saudis to get away with this brutish assassination then should all dissident journalists, including our own “enemies of the people”, begin fearing for their lives.
4
From the evidence being processed, it is becoming more clear that a heinous murder was planned and committed by Saudi citizens tied to Saudi Govt and that now our president is participating in a cover up and 'white-washing' of a crime against a legal resident of USA - incidently, one of his fake-news enemies.
This is Trumps moment in Times Square where he can 'kill' a person and simply walk away without being arrested for the crime. He said he could do it and now he plays the cards to in fact comparatively accomplish this by helping a nefarious collaborateur avoid consequences.
8
Trump learned his politics from W. C. Fields.
2
The Great Equivocator is at it again. If such an event occurred in France or Gernmany, the orange thing would be reading more than the "Riot Act" to Angela Merkel or Emmanuel Macron. Yet if a dictatorial tyrant is at the root of it---well, we all know to whose defense Our National Embarrassment would jump.
5
It's certainly desirable to not pronounce guilt until the findings are in, but we certainly have a 'prime suspect' in this case as the evidence we do have is pretty convincing. Innocent until proven guilty is a worthy goal, but detaining suspects with blood on their hands is a common and necessary practice...
2
What's with the surprise? Saudi Arabia is a country that:
Cuts hands off for shoplifting
Whips people in public squares
Chops people's heads off
commits genocide in Yemen
Finances ISIS
Financed 9/11 and most of the 9/11 pilots were Saudis
Still surprised that MBS would torture and chop up someone he doesn't like, and take the body parts out of Turkey in 15 diplomatic pouches?
I'm not.
9
So long as SA enables US deficit spending by buying our bonds, and so long as it runs interference/protection for Israel by confronting and provoking Iran, it will remain immune from US action.
If the wholesale slaughter and starvation of Yemeni children doesn't move the dial, why would the death of one journo?
313
@Charles
The Saudis not only buy a bonds, Trump has a hotel there that is doing well under the eye of the crown prince. Pay no attention to what Trump says - as his followers consistently tell us - watch what he does. Trump does nothing that is not good for his bottom line.
2
One does not bring an autopsy specialist with a bone saw to an "interrogation."
7
Cannot imagine why people are still expecting trump to exhibit any responsible behavior about anything...the man is a skunk, a crook, a charlatan; has always been, will always be.
6
The really sad state of affairs here is that our morally bankrupt POTUS was willing to repeat the obviously ridiculous Saudi lie of the minute about "Rogue Killers" and repeat the Saudi Royals' statements that they knew nothing about Khashoggi's disappearance. Yes, 40% of Americans actually believe what Trump tells them, but hopefully that means that 60% of Americans know this president would rather lie than tell the Truth. So why do we support all those Republicans in this Congress who would rather support this psycho-pathological liar than do what is morally right for the whole country.
3
What does this mean to trump red meat supporters who only care about cheap gas and have already handed over their moral compass to the kremlin?
6
In response to reports that Jews in concentration camps were harshly treated, Mr Hitler assures President Roosevelt that those in concentration camps were well fed and housed and most were very happy there. Mr Roosevelt said all could be reassured because Hiller gave his word.
Why when we go back a few presidents does this sound so strange?
4
Words fail me, so I'll quote:
We are hollow men, we are the dead men, headpiece filled with straw....This is the way the World ends, not with a bang but a whimper. TS Eliot, 1925. October 1922, Italy seemed to be slipping into political chaos. The Black Shirts marched on Rome and Mussolini presented himself as the only man capable of restoring order. King Victor Emmanuel invited Mussolini to form a government. In 1923 the Beer House Putsch(Munich) paved the way for Hitler to assume power 10 years later. As Marx said, History repeats itself, first as tragedy, second as farce. But this time is no joke, it's hard reality. When political murder becomes commonplace, the end of Democracy is not far off.
5
Trump is so anxious to sell weapons so the Saudis can continue to kill women and children in Yemen that he will make up any story he possibly can to excuse this murder. The blood on his hands cannot ever be washed clean.
2
Good luck.
I would call his a Trump-Pompeo-Saudi coverup and not just Saudi coverup
3
A criminal prosecution requires intent and an applicable nation state legal procedural and legal framework. And in this instance the law of the Saudi Arabia reigns and rules supreme.
Covering up the killing of Jamal KhashoggI was never the Saudis intent. Smiling and smirking Prince Mohammad bin Salman is sending a Benjamin Netanyahu, Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-Un message that he can kill anyone, any where, at any time and for any reason with impunity and immunity. That is the essential nature of terrorism and terrorists.
See museumandmemorial.eji.org
5
Looks like Mnhchin still going to the shindig in the desert. Just run the other Stevie if you see any guys with bone saw pal.
3
President Trump has yet to meet the tyrant whose ring he won't kiss.
4
This whole episode is such an outrage. And to think that Steven Mnuchin is still thinking of going to the Davos in the Desert conference hosted by Saudi Arabia with the tacit approval of the WH. It is NUTS. We must condemn, in no uncertain terms, what has most likely been a truly barbaric act against a journalist. We must join with other nations in standing against this evil atrocity.
442
@Sharon
Steve Mnuchin and Jared Kushner and Steve Miller stayed after Charlottesville.
This "journalist " was an ally and friend of Osama bin Laden, the Muslim Brotherhood, Wahhabi clergy and the Saudi royals.
Jamal KhashoggI was a Saudi propagandist. And Trump explicitly excused and explain why he deserved to die while working for Jeff Bezos.
We look the other way when Israel does much worse. And we have forgiven Kim and Putin.
Yes Trump. This is all about you.
Where’s McConnell in all of this? The Traitor Trump is leading us into the next war with fascism.
2
That Pompeo would toe the Trump line in his dealings with MBS is a given, but to see him grinning from ear to ear as he shakes the hand of the man who clearly sent a hit squad to Turkey to torture and murder Jamal Khashoggi, makes me want to retch. Is there anyone in this administration capable of even a scintilla of gravitas when representing us on the world stage?
Whatever reputation we still had left after two years of this corrupt and amoral presidency is now well and truly gone.
8
is anyone surprised? trump hates journalists and loves money
1
So, there is honor among thugs.
3
Can there be any clearer evidence that our President is venal AND stupid?
4
For the President of the United States to believe for one moment that the Crown Prince did not know and approve of the plot to kill that journalist, one would have to believe that Adolf Hitler and Adolf Eichmann had nothing to do with the Holocaust and that it was carried out by rogue elements of the Third Reich.
5
To advise fawning Republican politicians and the White House "yes men" cabinet .......that they use ethical arguments to have Don the Con,POTUS, suddenly, oppose and speak out against murder of a Saudi journalist.........is sheer political hypocrisy .
What about the concentration camps of Kim Jong Un....the death squads of Duterte.....the killing and detention of Muslims and journalists by Erdogan and AL-Sisi,the killing of Palestinian journalists by Israel ,.....not to mention the spate of Journalist and opposition deaths in the Russia of Trumps ,bosom buddy, Putin ?
You cant pretend to reform ,public policy and deceit by putting words in Trumps mouth........ Trump, his corrupt inner gang,and all his facilitators ,the self serving and corrupt politicians and.......must be removed from ALL positions by vote or indictment.........because they dont represent the Democratic and humane principles of the US Constitution and Bill of Rights......and betray the Americanpeople !
2
Just so love the optics of secretary of shame Mike Pompeo warmly embracing and shaking the blood-stained hand of Saudi prince Mohammed bin Salman in today's from page NYT.
8
Just so love the optics of secretary of state Mike Pompeo warmly embracing and shaking the blood-stained hand of Saudi prince Mohammed bin Salman in today's from page NYT. Have we no shame?
1
All true, but there is not one word here about how this overturns the entire American policy in the Gulf oil region.
This guy is the de facto leader of the whole Gulf Arab world, and no more autocratic and ruthless than the rest -- see crushing of Shiites in Bahrain.
This guy is more than an advocate of confrontation with Iran. He is key to it. Without the near 50% extra oil production of the world's largest producer, world oil prices could not withstand American policy against Iran. The US could not confront Iran without what he is doing.
Likewise, his wink and his money is key to the American approach to Palestine, to Egypt, to Libya, and to the whole Syrian War.
When we mess with him, we mess with everything in the region, the whole fiasco.
This has been building for a long time. I don't support US policy in any of that. But the reluctance now is merely a necessary consequence of all the rest.
Perhaps we should overturn the whole apple cart. I would prefer that. But that is the reality of what this Editorial calls for, and it ought to be at least mentioned, acknowledged. It is what gives Trump pause.
4
I wouldn't characterize Trump's statements to date as "buying into" the Saudi denials.
After all, anyone with any experience in the region knows that a public royal denial is an admission of guilt, wrapped in face-saving tissue.
Trump is just telling everyone what he has been told. That doesn't mean he believes it. What is said publicly in such matters is often rather different from what is said privately.
A question of the motive of the Turks remains open. They do the same sort of nasty stuff, often. How is it that they chose this time and this event to make a public relations splash ?
They apparently perceive it to be in their (or their allies) interest to drive a wedge between the US and the Saudis.
Nevertheless, this was a despicable act, if true. One on a long list.
Dropping support for the Saudis is a reasonable suggestion, but only if joined at the hip with an American takeover of the Eastern Province, and granting unincorporated territory status to it, a la Puerto Rico.
The citizens there, would cheer the thought. They felt that we had invaded the wrong nation, when we went into Iraq.
Whine all you want about oil, but it is strategic. Even if we no longer need to fight over it, other nations do. It is in the interest of the US to maintain the stability of the Saudi oil fields, with or without the Saudis.
1
@
IF this commentators is objectives. Am a card carrying southern Republican
I am a native New Yorker
@adam stoler
Well, the actual words that came out of his mouth were:
"I think we have to find out what happened first"
So if that says to you that he's buying into their story, then I would argue that you are not only a native New Yorker (me too), but also, living proof that there actually is a rationale for considering a literacy test before allowing someone to vote.
"Amateurs"
- Putin
12
Made me laugh!
1
This is a test of leadership we've yet to see. Call me cynical but Trump will fail it, as will always fail at everything he does. Or, in this case, doesn't do.
6
While the Saudi embassy in Istanbul might be considered Saudi sovereign territory, the highway leading from it to the airport is not. It's probably not legal to transport dismembered body parts through Turkey's sovereign territory without at least notifying the Turkish government.
And then there's the issue of the airspace through with the Saudi airliner flew. Yes, it's probably true that following 9/11, George W. Bush might have given the mistaken idea to Saudi royalty that they in fact did own U.S. airspace (given that their airline was the only one permitted to fly following the shut-down by FAA for all other airlines). However, it's not likely that other countries necessarily appreciate that their airspace is being used to transport unregistered, dismembered body parts of a known victim. This makes it an international incident regardless of how the Trump administration wishes to whitewash it all away.
6
@sthomas1957: A "diplomatic pouch" is a portable patch of sovereignty that is not subject to inspection by a host nation.
As a baby boomer now retired in South America, I spent 30 years as a child and adolescent psychologist in Austin. I remember one 18 year old saying to me, "You baby boomers have caused all the problems. We now owe 20 trillion dollars because you baby boomers spent all the money. We are doing nothing about global warming because all the money goes to you baby boomers." I told him that if the young people voted, they could take control of this mess and fix it.
5
@Westcoast Texan
Imagine that! Voting what a novel concept
2
Let's not vilify the Saudi rulers by jumping to conclusions here. It may very well be their only intent was to torture and kidnap, not murder. Sometimes the best of plans go wrong and bad things happen. Doesn't mean they're bad people.
2
Absolutely, if they were "only" going to torture and kidnap...
It's hard to have much respect for the Saudis. But a big hole in this story is this: If you're going to silence someone by murdering him, why make it obvious rather then covert??
A very well known person walks into Saudi embassy and never walks out - how obvious is that?? There are dozens of other ways he could have been killed, all more stealthy than the current scenario.
For example, why have a forensic MD along - allegedly to advise the killer(s) about types of clues left and how to make it more ambiguous - if a person is going to be dismembered??
It does raise the possibility that something did go awry during a better, more professionally planned abduction or execution. This in no way excuses the Saudis, but to me would be more understandable than the current fiasco.
Secondly, I'm not trying to be naive or suggest false hope, but most have concluded he was killed when in fact we don't know that yet. They could have him imprisoned somewhere. Just saying.
1
There is no point to trust Trump as he has a long business relation and very close (mostly secret) financial interest involved with the Saudis for long. They surely have any secrets that Trump and his clan members would not like to get published in public domain.
It's the Congress, basically the Republican party, that need to act in terms of Congressional actions, and act beyond theatrics and public posturing for fooling its ignorant vote bank. But I serious doubt that GOP leadership in the Congress will do that for various reasons that we know. GOP's actions would only be limited to that cheap talk and theatrics mainly targeted towards its Islamophobic Christian fundamentalist vote bank.
5
Where's the WH advisor or Congressional briefing the President that his friend Adnan khashoggi's nephew Jamal was brutally assassinated while filing routine paperwork to marry his Turkish fiancee and return with her to the United States?
Trump won't support our free press or human rights, but he just might speak up for the man whose uncle sold Trump a $200 million yacht in the 1980's that helped solidify Trump's Image as a wildly successful billionaire. It pains me to write that Trump is all about Trump and flattery will persuade where basic humanity and common decency fail.
4
apparently the G7 has put forth a statement looking "forward to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia conducting a thorough, credible, transparent, and prompt investigation, as announced."
That seems a little like looking forward to discovering the Fountain of Youth at a happy hour Watering Hole at the end of a rough week of work at the office in the financial district. But it will be good enough for the Trump Administration
Here's how The Guardian reported the findings of Turkish intelligence about the ghastly scene at the Istanbul consulate: "Khashoggi was dragged from the office to Otaibi’s [the Saudi Consul General] study next door, where Tubaigy [the Saudi forensic doctor equipped with a bone saw] began cutting up [Khashoggi's] body on a table while he was still alive."
3
Don't count on that Trump lackey Lindsey Graham to "...take a far more serious stance..." towards Trump's lies and anyone he defends like Putin or this Saudi prince. One phone call from Trump and Graham will make an about turn and give a phony , despicable performance like he did during the Kavanaugh hearings. Remember Graham wants Sessions job when Trump fires him and Graham will do or say anything in support of Trump to get it.
3
After 9/11, when scores of Saudi killers hijacked planes and flew them into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon and into a Pennsylvania field, the White House and President George W. Bush did everything in their power to shield the Bin Laden family and their members from culpability in this mass slaughter of 3,000.
We punished Saudi Arabia by invading Iraq.
So here, again, the oil, the money, the "royalty" of the House of Saud is considered to be sacrosanct and protected at all costs. The life of one little courageous journalist who mysteriously went into a secure, video watched, guarded embassy and never came out, well that is just too bad.
Maybe Elizabeth Warren, Hillary Clinton and George Soros cooked up Kashoggi's murder. Stay tuned to Fox News for unbiased and fair investigations.
5
Trump isn't buying denials, he is selling them. The going rate seems to be about a hundred million in deniable cash money. See Jared for the details...
4
We have thought of ourselves as a pure and moral country despite past treatment of slaves, native Americans, etc.
This is a wake up call. A time to stand on the side of morality and humane behavior. I doubt that our leader will go in that direction.
The countless good people in our country who strive for a better world will have to go on by themselves.
Our leadership, and therefore our national image, will continue to be no better than the rest of the world so let's at least drop the hypocrisy!
1
I don't know how Pompeo can allow himself to be used by Trump in this matter. He should resign. Now.
Some of the “thugs” who committed this atrocity reportedly are Saudi government employees.
Saudi Arabia has acted blatantly throughout this entire horrific crime. First with the murder, then having the consulate cleaned ahead of investigators and with the patently false denials. They clearly don’t care that the world knows the truth and don’t fear anybreal,consequences.
Now Pompeo and Trump are doing the same. Absolutely disgusting behavior from any public official much less those at the top.
Will the GOP Congress pull another Kavanaugh to go along with their amoral leader?
1
Maybe those pictures of Trump dancing in line with his Saudi hosts and wielding a sword was just the local custom before meeting the press.
1
In other words, Donald John Trump is a moral monster. But we already knew that. There must be big money coming to some Trumps or to Kushner. And of course they will hide it carefully and pay no taxes.
4
We should never forget what a great ally Saudi Arabia has been and keep rewarding them:
“They stuck it to us with their oil embargo in 1973. They thumbed their noses at President George W. Bush in 2008 when he appealed to them to bring down prices. They brazenly pumped up oil production in 2015 to make prices fall, keep market share and undermine U.S. shale-oil development.”
The United States needs green energy independence from the Saudi thugs and not an $18B per year annual oil tab which has given them the ability to whipsaw our economy. Oh, and don’t forget, 15 of the 9/11 high jackers and Osama bin Laden were Saudi.
If ARAMCO ever goes public on the New York Stock Exchange, the joke will truly be on us.
1
Expecting Trump to adjudicate this travesty would be like expecting banks not to profit.
1
"Evidence mounts"?? Yet you do not list even one actual piece of "evidence"? Certainly suspicions mount and rightfully so, but to date, there is no "evidence" that has been publicly released including in this article. Indeed your own comment to Trumps "guilty until proven innocent" is "We'll see" apparently agreeing that it remains an open question.
@NYer
Excuse me? Tapes show Khasshogi had his fingers cut off while alive followed by his decapitation. The Turks have admitted to hearing the tapes.
Does your standard of evidence require that you actually hear it yourself? You would probably question how do we know it was actually Khasshogi.
Given the evidence of the Saudi's murder of 50k Yemens and the millions who are currently imperiled by starvation it is certainly believable that the Saudi's are capable of the barbaric torture and murder of Khasshogi.
The evidence is without question. But it does require that you be a bit more diligent and discerning.
The volume of public outrage and media finger wagging regarding this allegedly slain journalist is greater than it was for America's illegal war against Iraq.
3
“This M.B.S. figure to me is toxic,” said Senator Lindsey Graham, who is normally a close ally of the president, using the crown prince’s nickname. “This guy has got to go.”
or
“This M.B.S. figure to me is toxic,” said Senator Lindsey Graham, who is normally a close ally of the president, using histrionics just like Mr. Trump so you can take much of what he says with a grain of salt. “This guy has got to go.”
4
Je suis Charlie..!!!! Saudi Arabia buys $110 Billion in military weapons from the USA. I can't wrap my mind around how much weaponry $110 billion buys. They are killing people in Yemen by the tens of thousands and the world hardly mentions it. They are killing journalists and trying to suppress our free speech around the world. We are better than this America, it's time to stand up a lead the world.
3
"guilty until proven innocent" that is in a court of law. There is strong evidence that the reporter was killed by Saudis, possibly at the behest of the Crown Prince. Of course, trump spoke to the aged king who has no idea what his son(s) is doing. trump will never condemn the Saudis because of the money they spend at his properties & they bailed Jared out (through back channels). There is strong evidence, if not proof, that Russia interfered in the elections in 2016 & helped trump & he won't condemn Putin either. trump uses this excuse only for his friends, but not for the Central Park 5, Hispanics (rapists & murderers), any & all non whites in the US. Sad excuse for a human being & an American.
2
Time for some good old fashioned regime change.
Invade, depose and annex.
1
"Guilty until proven innocent". Trump's new mantra.
Donald J. Trump rarely apologizes. When it comes to the case of the Central Park Five, he has never even come close.
In 1989, after these black and Latino teenagers from Harlem were accused of assaulting and raping a white woman in Central Park, Mr. Trump spent $85,000 placing full-page ads in the four daily papers in New York City, calling for the return of the death penalty. “Muggers and murderers,” he wrote, “should be forced to suffer and, when they kill, they should be executed for their crimes.” DNA evidence cleared them. Trump never apologized, maybe because they weren't sitting on a trillion dollars worth of fossil fuels.
3
Why should Saudi royals fear the disapproval of the USA? After all, they got away with nearly 20 of their countrymen flying planes into the WTC. We are at their beck and call apparently.
2
I am sure Trump admires this regime. He only wishes he could get away with such behavior here in the US when dealing with his political enemies. I guess it will just be a matter of time before he does. Judging from all of the immoral behavior coming from the president that goes unchecked by the people who surround him, it is just a matter of time. We only think we live a democracy now.
2
Outrage from Trump over the grisly murder of a journalist and advocate of Democracy? Don't hold your breath. The only thing that will outrage Trump is when he or one of his partners in crime is confronted with hard evidence of their treason, or their sexual assault of a minor, or his family's fraud schemes. Make no mistake, Trump is in the know on Khashoggi crime. He's dissimilating the truth so he can continue to make millions in dirty money from the Saudis. The evidence is there, but he just shouts it down from his Presidential bully pulpit.
3
2 months ago the Saudi's went berserk on Canada after their foreign ministry tweeted concern about recent human rights violations in the Sharia law ruled kingdom. The Saudis threw out the Canadian ambassador, withdrew their 15,000 Saudi exchange students from Canada and enacted other draconian measures - simply because of a Canadian tweet.
With such irrationality at the highest levels of diplomacy, murdering a bothersome journalist must have seemed to the "royals" a reasonable response.
5
You cannot claim that you “accidentally” dismembered a human body. If a killing was an accident, where’s the body?
571
@William Goode
You can claim anything if you are Benjamin Netanyahu or Vladimir Putin.
Who cares where the body is? He accidentally fell and killed himself before getting chopped up by an invisible supernatural saw wielding being.
1
@William Goode
Demand the return of his remains!
1
@William Goode
I agree. Also, an "interrogation gone wrong" is a horrifying euphemism. People do not die from being asked questions; however, torture is often fatal.
In the investigation, it needs to be found out if Trump played any part in crafting the alternative narrative, which is what he does more than any other thing in his life. I suspect he is consciously party to the cover-up of a dismembering of another human being and the thought is unbearable.
8
In the investigation, it needs to be found out if Trump played any part in crafting the alternative narrative, which is what he does more than any other thing in his life. I suspect he is party to the dismembering of another human being and the thought is unbearable.
5
It seems likely that the US intelligence community knows much more than they are saying, although they have probably reported everything to Trump. My guess is that this material would make interesting reading if the Dems take the House and begin to look into things.
5
There’s no need for US intel to reveal what it knows. Mr. Khashoggi is speaking louder than ever, and it’s fitting that it is journalism that is unmasking the murderers.
People should keep in mind that the Saudis need to sell their oil. It needs buyers. Like us. It works both ways. There are plenty of others willing to sell us their reserves .
4
It is odd that the stories are leaving out a key piece of the story. As the Associated Press reported on Oct. 12, Trump himself said, "'Saudi Arabia, I get along with all of them. They buy apartments from me. They spend $40 million, $50 million . . . Am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much.'"
In other words, we have clear evidence that Trump is allowing personal interests dictate U.S. foreign policy. And somehow the GOP and most of the media seem to accept this as normal.
If there ever was any doubt, it is clear now that democracy is dead, and in its stead we have a kleptocracy or even a kakistocracy.
1319
"... in its stead we have a kleptocracy or even a kakistocracy."
@Bill - Unfortunately, those two are not mutually exclusive. The Saudi royals enrich Trump and his ilk, and in turn Trump promises to sweep matters under the rug and disguise it as incompetence.
@Bill
Plus the $ spent by SA at the DC Trump hotel
2
@Bill Emoluments??? Corruption is the normal for this POTUS. Just plain old greed Trumping moral values.
3
Please stop calling him "president". He, the Koch brothers, Putin and their International Mafia Robber Baron brethren - and their radical religion compatriots - stole the election. They won nothing but universal contempt.
Call him what he is - The Con Don.
WE THE PEOPLE - average people across America and around the world - must stop them NOW. Before they try to make WW3 fodder of all of us.
21
@njglea
He is the one and only Article II executive office President of the United States that we currently have.
Unless and until he dies, resigns, is impeached and convicted or removed from office under the 25th Amendment.
Don't expect justice for the murder of the Saudi Journalist.Trump & Company have too much involved with the Saudi Government.They are our Ally in our battle with Iran.There is a pending multi million dollar Military deal with the Saudi's. Most of all & never mentioned, they are the leverage that Trump needs to have a Peace treaty with Israel & the Palestinians.If Trump can bring the two sides together, it will inflate his ego to a point that he will float in the air over Jerusalem.
What's one life in the face of all the accomplishments the Saudi's bring to the table.It's the Dollar which supersedes decency.
5
Trump demonstrates his lack of respect for the US public on a daily basis.
I’m reminded of something Trump said as reported by Billy Bush in a NYT Opinion piece, “People will just believe you. You just tell them and they believe you,”
Frankly, I don’t think guys like Trump or MbS care whether we believe them or not.
Having said that, Turkish evidence has not been verified by the US. I hope it will be, so that we can accept, with 100% certainty, the horrific claims authoritarian thug Erdogan, who has dozens of journalists in jail, asserts about this murder.
7
It's for these very actions by trump that I refuse to treat him as my President. It's been like this from day 1. Just this week alone (and it's only Wednesday), he describes a woman as "Horseface" and says "Who cares about Dr. Christine Ford, we won!
Not my President!
Vote November 6th
32
The Kingdom of Wall Street is in solidarity with their Saudi benefactors.
5
The Saudi's will get away with murder, just as they are in Yemen. Standing right behind them is our pseudo-autocrat in waiting with a complacent congress.
8
"Here we go again with you're guilty until proven innocent," said the man who publicly called for the execution of the Central Park Five.
This guy is beyond shame.
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@Edward
And that was after they were acquitted!
1
At this point, it's hard to tell which is more disturbing; the grisly way in which Jamal Khashoggi's life ended, or the persistent denial of this president who puts the importance of a U.S. arms deal with Saudi Arabia before finding justice for a man who was after all, a U.S. citizen.
After first denying that there was nothing at all wrong with Khashoggi's disappearance in Istanbul, he later switched his story to the possibility of "rogue killers" who performed the dastardly deed -- but only after Turkish officials came up with video and audio recordings that were hard to dismiss as evidence.
All in all this should surprise no one, seeing as Mr. Trump has always shown a clear preference for authoritarian strongmen over those who are willing to work things out diplomatically for the benefit of all.
That said, this type of governance flies in the face of a country that has prided itself on being a free and democratic society since the days of our Founding Fathers.
This is also something all Americans should remember on Election Day.
7
It's certainly not a surprise that Trump is taking the Saudi's side. He abhors objective journalism, he loves dictators, and he seems to have no moral compass.
6
So much outrage against the Saudi. The Russian regularly murders his opponents with apparent impunity.
Maybe MBS should have got advice from Putin, who is much more adept at murdering his political enemies while maintaining a level of plausible deniability.
2
Embassies and consulates are supposed to be sacrosanct regarding acts like this. Basically, they are where diplomacy is supposed to happen, even when a person is a citizen of the consulate's home country. Therefore:
1. If the Saudi government had a legal problem with Khashoggi, he should have been remanded over to Saudi civil authority, charged, and put on trial. Consideration should have been made for the fact that he was currently employed by and generally acting as a representative of an American company and was a legal resident of the US.
2. If the Saudi government felt it needed to "interrogate" Khashoggi, it should have gone through the legal process of their equivalent of subpoena. If they felt the need to be all James Bond about it, they should have smuggled him out of their consulate and done the deed somewhere else.
3. If it was indeed "rogue agents" who are guilty, then evidently the Saudi government cannot guarantee the safety of people visiting their diplomatic buildings and it isn't much different from other countries where citizens can be kidnapped, tortured, and killed at will by the government or agents who obviously thought their actions were sanctioned, or would be after the fact...but hadn't reckoned on exposure via modern technology. If these rogues aren't prosecuted for murder, then the Saudi government is as guilty as they are.
It's too early to make this an issue of guilty before due process. That's fake news. It's only the accusation stage.
2
Let's not kid ourselves. Saudi Arabia is not in the business of apologizing for it's sins. It's an autocratic regime that engages in a wide variety of activities that run counter to our interests. Prince Bandar summed up their feelings about the West in a 60 Minutes interview in the 2000's by saying, basically, the West has no business telling Saudi Arabia how to run its Kingdom, or how it avhieves its ends. They do what they always have done: rule by fear of punishment to any protest or dissent. Let's not pretend we're going to start trying to change the terms of our Fuastian bargain with the Saudis. We need them to keep the oil flowing to the world markets. That, and keeping Iran in check, is all that it's about.
171
Avoid entangling alliances.
—George Washington
@rcg
Why can't the Saudis get an Israeli pass from America?
How much oil does Israel have?
Monarchies. This is what expect from totalitarian governments.
1
Trump doesn't "buy" the lame denials, he simply repeats them as if they are fact.
His personal financial interests and those of his donors far outweigh the moral obligation to do what is right and to stand up to murderers such as the Saudi crown prince.
4
It is no longer beyond the pale that an American journalist in America might be killed under Trump's watch.
We already know many of his supporters would ghoulishly cheer such a national tragedy.
7
President Trump shows he is both uninformed and naive when rushing to judgement on the veracity of statements made by the Saudis. The statements he is making are not helpful, and once again put into question his respect for and understanding of our intelligence agencies and the dangerous work they do.
3
Asking tump to do the right thing and explain to the Saudi's why Khashoggi's murder was a terrible thing, is liking asking the devil to change to the good side.
And the Saudi King & Prince's denials remind one of that TV show of long ago:
Sgt. Schultz: "I see nothing, I hear nothing, and I say Nothing!!!"
For all fascists of whatever country, it's all about maintaining power, gaining more wealth and eliminating enemies...through any means. Tump included of course.
And most frightening of all his base will buy his deference to the evil aristocracy, buy whatever lies he tells as usual, and thinks he's great. Beyond comprehension.
2
This may be a good time to remember where the majority of assailants of the 9/11 hijackings came from.
Saudi Arabia is and has been a vicious, authoritarian regime since it's inception. It has been convenient for the US to keep the murdering Sauds in power because of the "enemy of my enemy" doctrine.
It seems they are now so emboldened by our lickspittle dotard of a leader that they feel they can export their brutality wherever they want. "Luckily" they have run into the turf of another dictatorial megalomaniac in Turkey causing them some discomfort.
Fun fact: Saudi Arabia has beheaded more people than ISIS ever did. The PUBLIC square where they do this is called "chop chop square" by locals.
13
"There is no question that Saudi Arabia is an important ally in the Middle East and that relationship should not be casually severed. " That says it all. If the Turks have sufficient credible evidence then they should proceed. Sanctioning Saudi Arabia is such a significant move it must be done cautiously. If it creates a vacuum in the Middle East, we must get out totally. Either Turkey or Iran will fill the gap. It is hard to believe that anyone, let alone "experts," would have tried to pull off this botched effort to silence a dissident. Like using a nuclear device to swat a fly.
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@Eddie Is it possible that the prince wanted to silence Kashoggi because he hated him and to show off the influence he has over the USA. so far it is going very well for him. He is sure the tech investors will be back and when they do, they will realize he is stronger than Trump.
No one ever mentions that the women in prison for advocating for women's rights have also been sentenced to death.
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-wednesday-edition-1.4...
Saudi Arabia is trying to "make an example" out of Israa al-Ghomgham, the first woman in the country to face execution for her activism, says human rights advocate Zena Tahir.
@Eddie
Yeah, you would have to be really stupid to do it but it appears that MBS and his gang of 15 really are that stupid and lets add sadistic as a bonus. Targeting a bus load of kids in Yemen was another stroke of stupid. And our president appears to be an accessory to the crimes providing them with cover as best he can.
We have now been warned: if Trump excuses a horrible assassination of a journalist, it is only a matter of time before he orders one of his own. Because he can.
1
Can we investigate the Saudi role in 9/11? I mean a real investigation- where are the results are released to the public.
I know it isn't as important as Khashoggi. I know one (foreign) journalist is equivalent to 2,977 American citizens.
But maybe, pretty please, could we look into the Saudi governments role in 9/11?
1
Ahhhh yes, the Saudis will conduct a complete and thorough investigation....of the Saudis. I'm sure this will be an independent investigation....by the Saudis. Trump will accept the findings, which in no way will be compromised....by the Saudis.
What does our own intelligence say about this?
Where are you Congress? Oh, that's right, I'm sure Graham and McConnell will hyperventilate for the cameras, but at the end of the day, we still have a relationship with the Sauds, and they want this to go away.
Trumps harsh words have evolved from tough guy to alternate facts and rogue killers.
But we all should remember, this guy was a reporter for the fake news, a muslim, and worked for the Washington Post. In Trumps eyes, that's three for three, so no biggie.
Trump's affinity for dictators and his actions suggest that he would abolish our system of checks and balances if he has the chance. In some ways, he makes McCarthism look like a walk through the park. One day the evidence of sexual harassment and illegal activity might catch up with him. What a deplorable man and president.
2
When it comes to evidence of Hillary having committed a crime simple rumors and investigations failing to produce any evidence is sufficient to "look her up". However, in this case nothing short of a video with the King and Prince shown to order an assassination can be sufficient. SAD - and I am not just talking about the bumbling clowns in the white house but also the voters who will support them in 3 weeks.
8
I am not so sure what is more repugnant - the Saudi denials or Trump's willful blindness? No doubt the Saudis have Trump (and Kushner) in their greasy pockets . . .
2
We have sunk to a new low in our response to this heinous act. Is there no bottom to the depths this administration will sink to in order to protect its financial interests? Are there no true champions of civilization left in the Congress? By this I mean people in the majority party who can actually effect some punitive response. I am sick to death of this mealy mouthed president and his deflective responses to domestic and international events that would cause a normal person to cry out in horror. November will be a turning point in U.S. history...a potential return to a country of moral and ethical values or a continued slide into barbarism and corruption.
1
Journalist, Imam, Priest, Dissident - what's the difference? It's not the person they are attacking as much as it is their message. The only difference I see here is the political hay being reaped by Ergodan against a political enemy and the sloppy method employed by yet another dictator who calls the US an ally. Without central american death squads funded and directed by US governmental agencies, US military aid to a middle eastern country that has developed extra judicial killings into political policy, and our own drone program funded and sanctioned across three administrations I doubt SA would have felt so emboldened. In the mean time we, the USA, clutch our pearls and gasp in outrage because of the clumsy method employed to stifle free speech as we expand the Kennedy doctrine of propping up murderous dictators across the globe in the name of democracy. It isn't Trump's words that inspired this extreme censorship as much as it is our actions giving others permission to act with equal impunity.
This is what I have come to expect of Trump: cosseting and comforting the comfortable and powerful while further antagonizing and afflicting the afflicted and assailed.
This is not who I want leading me. This is not who I want leading my country.
1
For me, the torturing and murder of a Washington Post journalist at the hands of the Saudi government was the piercing, poisoned straw that smashed the camel's back. Like millions of others, I simply cannot stand for Trump's corruption and what it is doing to us and the rest of the world. From now on, my 54-year old white professional female typically centrist self will #TakeAKnee. Until America looks like a place I recognize, #IWontStandforThis.
I am a proud American and the daughter of a 93 years' young WWII veteran (Patton's 3rd). I will not stand for the National Anthem until America starts behaving like America again. No more ripping children from the arms of their mothers. No supporting Saudi Arabia when they torture, dismember and murder an innocent journalist. I won't stand for a President and Pathological Liar in Chief. I won't stand for race baiting, discrimination, hate and gender shaming. I simply cannot and will not, as a proud American, stand for it.
In my living room, in the stands or at the starting line of my next 10K, I will take a knee out of love of and respect for my country.
16
The blatant, brutal murder of a U.S. based journalist critical of this Saudi Prince was meant as a message and a warning to the free press in Saudi Arabia and beyond. Our President providing excuses and cover for this perverted Prince is a message and a warning to the rest of us...Money talks, ethics walk. How long before it starts to happen here?
1
Trump wants to do the same thing who are we kidding.
2
One of the points of fracking is to make the U.S. more independent of Saudi oil. Why don't we tell MBS where to go?
2
Murdering journalists? Sure, why not? It's what autocrats do. It's in their job description.
Overwhelmed by my irrational disappointment in our President's men and women, I cling gratefully to our brave journalists and editors.
6
Of course Trump does. Accountability in this case may very well mean a blow to the Trump family pocket book. Lets see, pocket book, human rights, pocket book, human rights-pocket book it is.
1