Don't worry, tell Merkel, she will have a soft spot for them, and give them refuge, before her government collapses.
Or else ask the Democrats in the US to advocate for them and sponsor them, at the same time that they are declaring sanctuary cities and at least one state, and are calling for the abolishment of ICE.
4
Hard to buy the claim these women were ignorant/ innocent. Yazidi women who escaped slavery from the ISIS have testified about how the womenfolk of ISIS fighters did not provide them any aid or succour. Some have testified about how ISIS men raped them by night; while in the day the women of ISIS made them toil- doing drudge work and menial labor for the house. I would like to know how many of these ISIS women claiming to have been duped into going to Syria, assisted the kidnapped Yazidi women and kids being held in their own houses and communities?
14
Leave them where they are — in a stateless limbo. They wanted a stateless existence, now they have one. They’ve nothing to complain about.
9
I read the NYT's everyday and love reading the comments on articles.
What saddens me is the increasing proliferation of the vicious, vengeful, even hateful tone of many of the comments.
This Is the MO of the right. Has it now become the MO of the left?
It's easy for us to sit in our comfortable homes, in our comfortable lives and judge those caught up, whether voluntarily or - mostly not voluntarily - in the horror, poverty, and violence so common in the world right now.
But until we have walked in their shoes, and seen what they've seen what they've seen, we will never understand their motives, their sorrow, or their suffering. If we did, I believe, most of us would have done the same as they did.
7
I don't see that we have any responsibility for anyone not a citizen of the US. We have laws that address this. Actual American Citizens, unless they formally renounced their citizenship, and their children or parents (if the citizen is a child), should be extradited back asap and the adults charged with the serious crime that they all committed of going to Syria. This is just due process. These are very few people I expect, so we have a minor problem relative to European countries. Letting a US citizen sit in foreign confinement when the country wants to extradite, is cowardly and is shirking responsibility. But politically, it could be difficult.
4
This article highlights the reason that we must try to understand and forgive. It is sad and ironic that the Kurds are charged with maintaining. One could think that the courageous Kurdish women would reach out to these captive women and their children, as an example of their accomplishments in such an environment.
Yes, we all make mistakes, but some mistakes are treated more harshly than others. Wholesale murder (which was what Ms Dua's husband was participating in) is punished most harshly.
Ms. Dua cannot expect people who have lost many family members to the Islamic State to be kindly disposed. If you don't want your family to be in the situation Dua and her children are in, don't join murderous and oppressive organizations.
21
If a citizen of any country has a valid passport and hasn't committed a crime, that person legally has the right to return to their home country. That's what a passport is FOR.
And certainly the children should be taken home by their crime-fee parent. "Guilt by Association" has been out of style for 250 years. And in passing, for a modern Western woman to ask "Who is responsible for us? Who will determine our fate?" has me shaking my head. WE are responsible for our own futures. WE determine out own fate. WE are the ones to refuse violent acts by our spouses, whether domestic or international.
7
The issue is the wives are not there because of guilt by association. They actively supported their husbands. It's not the same as my husband went and was a serial killer behind my back. It's I worked and supported and married him because he's a serial killer. These wifes are accomplices. The children in these situations would have been taken away.
12
Of course this is a moral conundrum. Of course the rule of law should apply. But in many countries that will mean incarcerating the surviving parent and separating the children.
The media are filled with articles about the suffering of children separated from their parents in the past, for good or bad reasons at the time. Yes, we may be sowing the seed of future unrest due to children being raised in these camps instead of being allowed back to their countries of citizenship, which many have not known. But public reaction aside, no policymaker in his/her right mind would sow the seeds of future NY Times articles denouncing future adults being separated in childhood from their surviving fundamentalist parent. It's a lose-lose situation.
2
Do I feel sorry for these women? Not especially. But I think it is wrong to just dump them on the Kurds and pretend they don't exist. We need to repatriate our own American citizens and either charge them with crimes and prosecute, taking the children and putting them into the custody of relatives of the accused, or let them go once they're home if there is no evidence that the woman was guilty of committing a crime or crimes in the terrorist war.
8
It’s very difficult but we must remember that they left their countries so that they could take slaves and behead infidels. Regardless of what they say now when they left for ISIS the websites extolled those viscious crimes. Now they are sorry and that’s the way criminal losers are. But what about the people left holding the bag. Maybe send them to Iraq where they can receive a trial from the people that they butchered. The children will be spared and can be sent to a refugee station for relocation and re-education. In fact they should just give up their children because that’s best for the little ones. Thankfully the men are just being shot right on the spot.
13
How many women? children? nationalities? Known member of IS.... Those known to be criminals should be perecuted if there is clear evidence of wrong doing. All other and with children returned to country of origin... assuming they are documented.
I hate these vague numbers... At least families are tog. and NOT in steel cages.
2
Some women from Muslim countries were coerced into following their husbands to Syria, possibly with little exposure to the terrors of Daesh and the belief of something good. For those women, largely uneducated I do have sympathy for.
However the European wen who voluntarily went to Syria to support Daesh, I cannot fathom how they were not more informed and could believe this was a good thing. They made their own conscious decisions to go. It is difficult to muster up sympathy for these women. It is hard to tell if they are truly remorseful for their actions and or what threat they might still pose.
Honestly if an adult accidentally kills someone it is still a crime they pay for. Why makes these Western women think that they can just be forgiven without a penalty?
20
Some comments suggest we (western nations) are required to take these women back. That is extremely naive and would be a mistake. We can never trust these people again. NEVER. These women not only renounced their citizenship when they left the civilized western countries that took them in as immigrants, they committed acts of treason by joining a terrorist group that has declared war on our nations.
23
Save the children.
I am loathe to advocate separating children from their mothers but this is a unique event/situation. I am assuming that the mothers were culpable and just as responsible as their husbands re participating in the ISIS atrocity.
In civil society if parents committed heinous crimes and incarcerated their children would be handed over to appropriate govt. agencies for foster parenting or adoption.
6
Separating children from their parent(s) is not a good solution. The best solution would be for all the Muslim countries and communities around the world to take a fair share of these families and reintroduce them, if possible back to a civilized society.
4
The women and children are civilians, just like the German women and children at the end of WWII. Unless they actively participated in the fighting, they should be repatriated, and if their home countries think they may have in fact engaged in war crimes, they should have the opportunity to defend themselves in court. That's why we have international tribunals.
11
Lol. If one of those come back to a western country and commit violence or one of their children do then it will be Willie Horton to the max? Remember that? I can't imagine any western government will take them and that they are actively reviewing the revocations for citizenship revocations
11
We have no clue if any or all American women who may be in this camp or another camp like it are criminals or not. Stupid, thoughtless - certainly. Does that prevent one from being a native born American citizen? I would claim otherwise, citing to Exhibit A who lives in the White House president's residence. The point is that as American citizens, these women are entitled to due process under U.S. laws and our Constitution, whether you or anyone else likes it or not. Bring them home. If the government has evidence that one or more committed crimes while "wives" of the terrorists, then prosecute them and put their children, if any, into the care and custody of relatives. You don't know and neither do I anymore than anyone else who MAY commit a crime or an act of terrorism in the future, foreign or home-grown. That's just bogus and if you don't know it, you need to educate yourself on the statistics of just WHO it is in this country who commits the vast majority of violent crimes (ahem - white native born males).
Decisions have consequences and we see there is no exception here. Do not tell them to even try to think about coming to the U.S. we have our own problems and do not need them.
29
Trump won't let them in. If a democrat president does later and one of the women or their children go jihadi on us then the democrats will be Willie Hortoned out of office
4
No sympathy for these women. Sympathy for the children. For those women who came from western countries, their national social services should take their children away from them.
25
Amen !!
3
There are people in Canada who got diagnosed with PTSD-like conditions just for interacting, as therapists or social workers, with Yazidi survivors of ISIS. It's almost impossible to imagine the horrors the victims went through before dying in the hands of ISIS. Look for NYTimes' own article, of last year, about sexual slavery of non-Muslim girls (yes, children) - if you can stomach it. Unless the death penalty, after due process, is reinstated in Europe, these women should never be allowed back.
29
Although Canada will ultimately be required to take back anyone who can prove that she and her children are Canadian citizens, our government should not be anxious or be in any hurry to help them. The wives went with their husbands voluntarily, so they should be made to accept the consequences of their foolish decisions.
26
The NYT wrote “The Kurdish authorities that administer this stateless war zone....” However, this is not just a stateless region. The Kurds have, at least, established an autonomous state in this region and staked a claim there. Whether the NYT believes this claim is legitimate is irrelevant because the region is at this point a de facto state. To claim otherwise is inaccurate, and this article should issue a correction on that point.
10
The creation of more "martyrs" doesn't seem like a sound policy.
Asking the Iraqi judges, who have witnessed so much horrible violence to those near and dear, to mete out fair justice doesn't seem like such a good idea either.
To the extent that ISIS was created by a murky alliance with traceable elements that extend to ourselves, our allies, and our policies we err in scapegoating the vulnerable.
We can't simply wash our hands.
The need for a supranational organization to create and administer justice in this time of global lawlessness grows ever more dire.
5
Stephan, I think that you have made a very important and overlooked point, what you suggest is the ethical decision.
2
It's after reading articles like this that makes me detest organized religion even more. It's a plague on our species. And no, I am not an atheist.
19
I don't think they deserve any sympathy as they joined their husbands knowing full will the horrors their husband's were committing. I think they need to just live with their mistakes because this isn't run of the mill mistake. Also why should their birth countries accept them back or even help them considering they willingly joined their husband in Syria so there should no second chances for this sort of things.
20
From 2015 in the Guardian:
"'Jihadi brides' aren't oppressed. They join Isis for the same reasons men do" in which the author writes: "The ‘jihadi bride’ narrative is inherently sexist – it fails to acknowledge the agency of Muslim women, either in conflict or in preventing terrorism". Enough said.
33
Taking care of these women and their children should not be the problem of the Kurds.
As previously noted in the New York Times, the government of Saudi Arabia is housing jihadis in fine style in an attempt to reform them:
"The 'guests' are issued key cards for their rooms, receive three catered meals per day and sleep in luxury suites outfitted with big-screen TVs, king-size beds and shiny wallpaper."
Saudi Arabian families were a major source of funding for ISIS. I suggest the money for that country's luxurious deradicalization programs could also be going to support the women now sheltered by the Kurds.
Reference: "Inside Saudi Arabia’s Re-education Prison for Jihadists", https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/10/world/middleeast/inside-saudi-arabias...
12
Many of these westerners, men and women, were young, rebellious, impressionable, living in many of Europe’s muslim ‘slums’ when they were brainwashed into this cult. Wouldn’t it be fair to at least interview them and try to expose the real jihadies? I’ll bet many of them regret joining ISIS.
8
Excuse me if I don't feel any pity at all for these disgusting, vile, evil cockroaches. No, you don't deserve a second chance and no, there is no redemption and coming back from this. Just. no. You thought you were coming to heaven? Really? What news channels were you watching because I speak fluent Arabic and I can assure you, we were seeing the satellite news here and it looked exactly like what you got. These women (especially the idiot Western women who made a conscious decision to go there) need to be punished just as harshly as the men. I am all for the death penalty or life in prison. I don't buy for one minute that they didn't know what they were getting into. Not one minute. I don't care what happens to their children either. Did they or their oh so wonderful terrorist garbage family members care when they committed murders and atrocities? What about all of the sex slaves? The Yazidis? What about all of the villages wiped out? What about all of the children they left orphans.
These pieces of garbage can go rot. I hope they all die very slow, very painful deaths all the while reliving every single step that led them to where they are.
P.S. - I am a Muslim living in Canada so please no comments about islamaphobia blah blah blah.
38
Well stated
3
Why not conduct trials of these women in whatever country it was that they committed their crimes (supporting Isis) and if convicted, serve the terms therein, just as would be the process if they were charged with any other crime.
20
Their crimes are way to extreme for European typical max sentencing.
6
Sorry but many of these women had access to information about their (Isis) atrocities , especially those who lived in western countries . The enslavement of women and girls , the mass murders , beheadings , were readily available on the internet , and yet they went . I have to sympathy for the devil , and if they're in limbo so be it , they made their choice , unfortunate for the children , and I wonder if they too have not been indoctrinated by this insidious evil .
46
This is not recent news. Why is the NYT giving the situation such prominence now?
These women aided and abetted their "husbands in murder, enslavement, rape and wanton destruction. Leave them where they are; it's a better fate than they deserve.
51
I confess. The plight of these women is not one of my top priorities. They made a choice and were most likely aware of the consequences. However, their children did not. And left in a camp like that, with no schooling, is a formula for radicalization. I don't know what should be done with the mothers, perhaps a trial carried out by an international court, but the children should be shown compassion. Whether they remain with their mothers in the camp, or are removed, they will most likely have a very difficult road ahead.
27
To paraphrase a biblical saying, separating the goats from the sheep is going to be challenging. Obviously the younger children are probably going to be sheep. The rest will have to be considered case-by-case.
That being said, if you voluntarily left your home country and joined Daesh (my preferred term for this movement) then it's going to be tough to make a case to any country to take you in or risk repatriation.
32
Actually, separating goats from sheep is easy -- and I'm sure there's nothing to the contrary in the Bible. Just saying...
I have to question how "voluntarily" it was for most of these women. That "culture" doesn't seem to be very sympathetic to their women's preferences.
10
Not all "mistakes" are equal. This was not a one-off mistake example of carelessness or inattention, nor one that could have casually happened - it was a fundamental life choice, where they rejected the West and embraced ISIS, fully knowing what they were getting into. Their only "mistake" was thinking they could get a "do-over" if things went south, which of course they never expected. They now have to (and should) live with the consequences.
37
Providing aid to terrorist groups is a crime. The women should be treated the way any person should be treated if they are suspected of committing a crime.
So bring them home and charge them under the appropriate statute. Place the children with family members or if necessary, in foster care, with a priority placed on adoption. This is the most just solution. The children are not guilty of anything. If the women are convicted of a crime, then their punishment will serve as a deterrent for those who would follow them.
20
I don't see the problem here. I'm surprised the women and children weren't killed on the spot, tbh. They were part of the IS IS machine that ravaged so many innocent people, completely destabilized Europe and gave us the conditions that led to President Trump.
27
The hateful comments of so-called Americans, many of which like also are so-called Christians, is sad, so sad. These comments do help understand how Lyin' Donald got elected: me, me, me, me and just me.
8
Look in the mirror when you refer to "so-called" Americans. If you are a Christian, be grateful you hadn't fallen into their hands.
It has nothing to do with T-Rump, just stop the nonsense.
18
"With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nations's wounds, to care for him who bore the battle and his widow and children..."
These ideas, part of Abraham Lincoln's second inaugural address, express what it use to mean to be an American.
Sympathy for the children but zero sympathy for the adult women. You chose a life of Islamic extremism, outside the boundaries of civilized societies, whether you realized what that meant or not. Decisions have repercussions. I would not want any of the US adults "repatriated " back to our soil. Let the children be adopted if need be but please google ISIS atrocities before you let your sympathy offset your better judgement.
43
Totally agree. I have not one iota of sympathy for the women.
8
You want redemption? How about starting a survivors fund for the families impacted by ISIS. U.S. military families and the Yadizis come to mind right away - but there is a long list to choose from. Spend your life raising money for the people whose lives you have destroyed.
31
great idea
4
Actions have consequences. You move to Syria to join ISIS, you can't expect to return to your home country because you are too big a risk. There is no way of knowing whether these women and their children are radicalized. Women are just as deadly as men, so they should not play the woman card. Remember a woman was one of the killers in the San Bernardino terror attack, and her husband did not force her to take part.
41
Sorry to see you suffer, but victims of ISIS have suffered more than you. Until they see peace, you will not either.
42
I sympathize with the children. Their lives have been ruined because of criminal acts by at least one of their parents.
As for the adult women, who knows what they really think? Are we to believe the families of terrorists are more honest than other people? Are they more deserving of second chances than 'reformed' individuals languishing in our own prisons? Or potential refugees who have had their claims denied?
There are billions of people who lead terrible, deprived, diseased lives because they were born poor. If citizens of the world anywhere want to help deserving people of any age or sex or religion, I promise they will be easy to find without sorting through the families of terrorists.
15
If these women and their children remain ardent believers in their religion, then their circumstances are due to Allah and how they got to where they are is also due to Allah he give them their husbands. If they no longer accept their religion then plea to returning to your western countries as a non Muslim. But remember if they return to a western country they will probably be required to learn the language of their country and be prepared to support themselves and their families. They should not expect to be returned to a western country to be fully supported so they can follow their religion. Finally if the fate of their children is of utmost importance the western countries will take back the children but not the parent then they must make a sacrifice and allow their children to thrive in a western country. They shouldn’t use the children as pawns to their own desires and wants. You can’t expect a western country to accept them back, support them while they practice their choice of religion. If they claim their circumstances are the result of a lack of free will then exercise free will and make a choice to stay where you are, be returned as a nonmuslm or ?
13
Someone needs to serve as an example of what happens when you cast your lot with the devil, to get others to think twice when faced with such destructive opportunities.
Might as well be this group, eh?
14
There is no "devil", only human-created mythology that's already complicating humanity's social evolution. No need to continue to propagate such destructive mythology, Christian as well as Muslim.
8
While I feel for the children, it's hard to feel for women who have any afinity with a primitive desert tribal religion that views women simply as prizes to be collected by the dozen as reward for waging jihad. The ideology, actions, and images were all out there in the open for anyone to see what awaited them, yet they willingly sold their souls for some dubious spiritual surety and actual physical slavery.
It totally reminds me of the women here who willingly sign on to fundamentalist evangelical Christian ideology with its same fear , need to control, and hatred for women as equal, independent, powerful beings able to determine their own destinies. No difference really and both religions with their extremist followers must be shunned and isolated from the rest of society, lest they contaminate and complicate our forward evolution as an advanced science-based society any more than they already have.
15
"You made your bed, now lie in it."
That's the obvious, justifiable, knee-jerk response to these particular refugees. It's easy to say; it feels good. It's also wrong.
It's wrong from a moral point of view - many of these people, particularly the children, have done nothing to deserve this abandonment. To feel vindication at the suffering of children? That makes us the monsters.
It's also wrong from a practical point of view. The next generation is living in this camp. They are the offspring of easily radicalized people. They have been exposed to violence and war for much of their young lives. If we reject them - if we treat them as the enemy - that is what they will grow into.
18
Too late for most of the children-they were born into ISIS, and most countries do not have the billions needed to change those powerful memories and beliefs that have been instilled in them. Perhaps some of the rich Saudis, but they helped cause ISIS.
9
ISIS is so awful that is is very difficult to be sympathetic, but imprisoning the ones that are innocent will only create a new generation of possible terrorist. Justice should be served, so take a deep breath and get to it.
13
None of them are innocent, and giving their kids to their families is like throwing them in the garbage.
2
In fact, the entirely innocent people who lost loved ones at the hands of ISIS will pay for ISIS' mistakes for the rest of their lives. Relations between Western people and Islamic people have been irreparably damaged by ISIS mistakes for the rest of our lives. Syria's warped, twisted, murderous government was misshapen by ISIS mistakes and will not recover for the rest of our lives. Et cetera. Cry, ladies -- cry every day about the overreach of ISIS and your part in it. It's the least you can do for the rest of your life.
18
Adults who joined ISIS are members of ISIS.
Treat them like the murderous terrorists they are. Try them and sentence them accordingly.
Iraq has a tried and true method to do this. They are solving this problem.
20
Was this reporter unaware that at least one of her/his subjects was flashing Isis gang symbols (as others hid their hands behind veils and may have been doing the same), or did s/he not think it worth mentioning?
39
Like most commenters I have trouble seeing where these people are deserving assistance. Are they more deserving than poor Americans who are descended from slaves or "poor white trash?" Assistance to those and other Americans is plummeting.
Every criminal that gets caught made a mistake. Should they all be forgiven? Everyone makes mistakes but not everyone's mistakes involve attempts at world domination achieved through mass murder.
36
"Who's responsible for us?" actually, I think you are. I'm sorry your home country was bad, I'm sorry you are repressed, but ultimately this is on you. I'll tell you who is not responsible for you: me.
41
Jamie, Sometimes their home country was good: England, France, Belgium, Denmark, etc. They chose radical Islam over the West.
17
Human beings are responsible for one another. It is very sad that Jamie feels no responsibility for others. WWJS? Not this heartless comment.
3
Offer to sponsor one then, in your own home.
1
Of all the refugees and displaced people in the world, these are the ones I care least about. You made your bed. Now lie in it. Also, no one is responsible for you, Ms. Ibrahim, because you are an adult. You are responsible for yourself.
42
What about the children and the wives whose husbands forced them to go?
2
There needs to be some way to repatriate the children, I agree, INCLUDING the young girls who were forced to marry. But as for the adults, and ESPECIALLY the Western women who left of their own accord, I feel no sympathy.
3
Were the wives actually "forced"? Or is that the story to get them out of the camp?
1
can submissive women make good mothers ?
4
I suggest reading a prior ny times article about Isis wives. It opens up the current story.
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/22/world/middleeast/isis-wives-and-enfor...
6
Sure, anyone can make a mistake. I once underpaid my rent by mistake. I didn't go join ISIS to help with beheadings. I have zero sympathy for the European ISIS wives. Put them in a hard labor camp somewhere.
37
Play stupid games. Win stupid prizes.
24
I like this so much, I will use it often.
However, I was born in a totalitarian state where people had very little access to free media. My grandfather used to sit under the kitchen table with a transistor radio to his ear once a day, listening to Radio Free Europe. Because it was illegal, and he had already done one stint in a labor camp, so he wasn't in a mood to test his luck.
When I was five years old, my father decided we would flee to the West. What did he really know of this "West," you might ask? His town library had some copies of Hemingway's novels.
I'm pretty sure he imagined we'd one day live in a waterfront mansion and he'd be a captain of industry. Instead, we left our comfortable, large apartment and moved to Queens, where we had to figure out things like how to get rid of roaches in a rental apartment, whether it was safe to keep savings in a bank account, and whether it was true that one dishwashing liquid was that much better than the others. My parents couldn't get jobs in their field because no one knew where their degrees came from. We were so unprepared, it was like we came from Mars.
Now I write to you as a US citizen, with an Ivy education and a good credit score, and a son who is a native New Yorker.
Was it a stupid game? Who knew? It sure seemed like it to my mother at the time. We got a few good prizes, though.
11
The point is that you and your family learned how to live in America. You learned the language and the culture. The chances of the ISIS women/children having similar success are small indeed.
2
To quote the great ethicist and philosopher Justin Timberlake, "Cry me a river"
20
Wouldn't these women have useful information?
The Americans have to come back and face trial without question.
I can't help but notice that the women were not separated from their children.
5
I can't help wondering how most of these women would feel if ISIS were succeeding and they were still living in relative comfort and safety with their husbands. Would they still see their decision to join ISIS as a mistake? Are those who see it as a mistake now regretting that they chose an inhuman, immoral side, or just a losing side?
I feel bad for the kids, who are blameless, and for any women whose husbands managed to force them to go with them, but it seems the others knowingly chose to support a horrifically violent and repressive movement. It's hard to see how they'd sincerely understand the value of, and support, a secular democracy. People can change, but from the perspective of the receiving country these women are a risky bet.
37
The children of these women should be returned to their relatives in their countries of origin as quickly as possible. They had no say in the decision to move to Syria and should not be penalized for decisions that their parents made. The women should be given the choice of being repatriated to their countries of origin and facing the legal and social consequences of their decisions, whatever they may be or of remaining in Syria and making what they can of their lives there.
7
But what have those children learned to do in the ISIS countries, and could that harm the countries that take them in?
4
Sorry, zero sympathy if you elected to go. Sorry it was not the paradise you thought, but tough. You made your bed, now lie in it. The only exception in my mind are the very young. They are unlikely to be infected with the ideology of absolute hatred and violence. No place for adults in world where people of different faiths need to coexist.
13
Boy there sure is a lot of hate in the world. Plenty to go around. America has never had a war on her own turf that compares to what other countries have had to go through. Maybe that is why.
4
RE: America has never had a war on her own turf that compares to what other countries have had to go through.
Have you ever heard of the Revolutionary War or the Civil War or of all the Indian massacres of pioneers settling the west?
16
So many readers of this article seem to think that there is a proper criminal sanction in a Western nation for acts committed in another country, or no country at all, which is what the caliphate sort of is/was. As for the U.S.:
18 U.S. Code § 2332b - 'Acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries' only applies to acts committed *against America or Americans.* Proof would be almost impossible. It's a conundrum -- we can't try these women for thought crimes, unless and until they return to the West and commit an overt act. The Tsarnaev wife was never charged with anything, and she lived in Boston!
Clearly, many Arab countries have no such compunction, hence these women' reluctance to return. But what of the children? Surely a solution should be sought.
5
You know what? They do deserve a chance at, what do we call it, redemption. But that requires an act of atonement that is commensurate with the gravity of ISIS's crimes.
Some possibilities these women should consider:
- They can offer themselves and their children to the Yazidis for several years of unpaid service in any capacity the Yazidis see fit
- They can continue to live indefinitely in this refugee camp, like the millions of other Syrians they displaced
- They can march back to their countries of origin on foot, stopping at every house they see along the way to identify themselves as members of ISIS and beg forgiveness
Whatever the case, they should not end up in the West. If their religion is truly so great, and the rest of the world is so dark and unenlightened, then we need to spare them the indignity of living with us. It would just be too horrible for them to contemplate.
40
These women are radical Sunni Muslims, or were. They owe their education to the Wahabis in Saudi Arabia. The legal code of ISIS was essentially identical to that of Saudi Arabia's to include the beheadings. The European women would never have been involved with these men if Europe did not have open Moslem immigration combined with state and institutional encouragement that the women interact with the newcomers and eschew any "racism" or judgement regarding their religious beliefs. They should be sent to Saudi Arabia and I am astonished the US has not demanded that. If the US does not have the courage to demand it then they should come to the US. What is the difference between a Honduran married to a violent man and a Muslim? If they go back to Europe their support system would be the ISIS cadres living there in relative comfort.
9
As a minority, I am not quite sure where all of this hatred exhibited in the comments section is coming from. Reading these comments is listening to a Yrump speech, from a man who found five ways not to have to go to Viet Nam just like the rest of the GOP does Dick Cheney come to mind? Bill Clinton, Democrat elites but have so much to say about war. The Veterans Administration has been in shambles since the 90's but everyone cares and no one does anything. Reflect on the families who lost everything with the Viet Nam war, husbands, brothers, daughters, sisters etc who never came home. We all had to learn how to deal with that heartbreak, families who lost their sons to Canada to escape the draft. Letting go of hate is hard but it can be done.
I am sure there are many families who were to ignorant to know that they were being used by this perfect life. Thing about the ignorant people in this country who are being used by the administration. Think about the three thousand children who are missing how can we hep get them back to the people who love them?. Find compassion in your soul. Lets focus on how we can make the world a better place bring merit to the slogan. Lets get off of our high horses. We can be so much more than what these comments represent. Let's not forget about the children in the cave and try to find ways to help. We all make mistakes but if we truly believe, we have the ability to forgive, help and move on.
4
They should be tried for their crimes (supporting a terrorist organization) in the country where they provided such support. Being a mother should not be a reason to be exempt from justice.
5
@Tony - Did you receive a "minority memo" on 9/10 to remain at home the next day so only the "evil majority" would be killed? Of course not. Don't make the mistake of thinking these people would look out for you or have a soft spot for you.
3
The US should take back its citizens and their children, but relinquishing custody of the children to either a relative or the state should be required. Once the women are here, they can be tried and incarcerated as appropriate.
As for the now stateless, maybe Cuba would like to earn some hard currency from the UN. It's a island, authoritarian state with a well-developed citizen network of informers and very Catholic despite being Communist. Sprinkle them around the island so the women can't form an insular community and pay the Cuban government to maintain and educate them for the next twenty years.
5
Not thanks let them stay where they are. The fact that the UN can't easily fix a minor problem of 2000 refugees is further proof of its failure. The US should leave the UN.
13
It's interesting that the group includes Russians. I wonder what the Russian government will do.
2
Would it be too much to ask they be sent to Saudi Arabia, a country that fully endorses and, in fact, underwrites their heinous fetid ideology?
I suppose they could also be sent to the Western Europe or the USA. Liberal politicians in the former, and the Deep State bipartisan political establishment in the latter don't seem to much mind the occasional mass civilian casualties — e.g. Boston Marathon, 9/11.
5
Just remember that the three casualties at the Marathon are dwarfed by the toddlers we lose every month who find their father's guns on the kitchen table or their mother's guns in their purse. Our criminally irresponsible domestic gun owners and their friends at the NRA cause more deaths and damage in a given year than all aslyum seekers in the history of the United States. 9/11 -- how related to asylum or immigration? Everyone one of the terrorists was in this country legally. How dare you claim that liberal politicians or liberals don't mind mass civilian casualties? Did you lose anyone on 9/11? I have many friends who did, thank you very much. Who was it that gave these Saudis a pass on their extremist ideology for so many years? Was that liberals or the oil barons of the Republican party? Who built the Taliban and funded and trained them? Liberals or the anti-Communists who were sure that these pious people were our natural allies against the godless Russians?
3
The nuanced approach would be for the allies to agree on an assessment program designed to identify the varying levels of culpability. Repatriation of the innocent, re-education of the educable followed by repatriation, lifelong banishment of the culpable. As for the children, removal and adoption services for children of the culpable and repatriation for the rest. We’ve had experience with this before. As for countries that refuse repatriation of the innocent and educable, assessment of fees sufficient to guarantee the services and relocation costs of countries willing to take them in.
9
Well, they are certainly a captive work force.Some enterprising person might be able to organize and implement some way to put them to work and allow them to earn something that might lift them a bit out of that destitute state they are in.They, in some cases, must be young and perfectly capable of doing some kind of useful work. Work would give them a purpose and allow them to have some control over their living condition.
They are a wasted resource in a time when every resource is important. There is no point in wishing this situation was not happening.It is, and why not try to find something positive that will help?
18
As I once read somewhere, "Work makes you free.....". Should we move production of Harley-Davidsons there ?
2
Maybe they could go to work to assist in restoration of Syria and Iraq.
8
There was an excellent article in the NYTimes some time ago on the integration of ISIS children orphaned during the Raqqa siege with their next-of-kin Russian grandparents. Despite the trauma, one is hopeful the children can overcome the trauma of the war and lead non-violent lives.
One would think the Muslim nations would welcome these particular wives and orphans of ISIS home, but, of course, they recognize the potential security threats posed by these individuals.
The most reasonable immediate option is to make the camp housing these people as humane and enlightened as possible, with quality food, shelter, medical care, education and vocational/skills-based teaching provided. All able bodied women should be employed or in school, and all children need to be in school. The Muslim world is wealthy due to ever rising oil prices, lead by Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc. These nations should show leadership and donate to finance the upkeep of the camp. The energies of the children should be directed towards quality sports programs in the camp. Quality sports programs in the camp for all kids would go a long way towards improving morale in the camp, positively directing energies. Western nations should supply volunteer coaches with expertise in different sports. Ultimately, these children and wives of ISIS need to be re-integrated somewhere. In the interim, the best chance for future re-integration is to make their current life as productive, educational and humane as possible.
15
Good luck with suggesting that Muslim nations "show leadership" in rehabilitating and educating women. Saudi Arabia, one of the wealtheir Arab nations, just started allowing women to drive this summer. Societies that deny women education and work opportunities outside the home create a financial liability for everyone when they fail and leave others to cope with large numbers of women who have several children and no skills to support them. I'd be happy to see men in Arab nations that supported ISIS financially or in any other way required to pay a "child support" tax to pay the living and educational expenses of the women now left destitute and widowed by a society that relegated them entirely to the care of male relatives.
9
Yes, Rick. We should bring them here.
1
Very sad for these women and children. They should be returned to their countries of origin to stand trial for treason. That is/was the crime. If they are innocent, so be it. If guilty, they must face the consequences. They could get some time off of sentences for telling their story. If innocent, they should be very willing to tell their story.
They should also get anti-cult treatment.
BTW, no one deserves redemption if it is demanded. It can only be given by the offended. Demanding redemption is a reason to suspect a huge problem with that person's loyalties.
20
Sorry, take a number for anti-cult treatment. The line of Trump voters in urgent need of therapy is too long already.
3
The ISIS recruitment campaign reminds me of the recruitment campaign North Korea launched after its separation from South Korea to encourage Korean immigrants in Japan to return home. North Korea promised a great life; the returning immigrants didn't find out how bad it was until they arrived and discovered they were living in a totalitarian state and were pawns to be manipulated by the Kim government for financial gain.
That said, some of these women went willingly, and some were complicit in the sexual and physical enslavement of Yazidis and other women (including at least one American aide worker who died after being forced to become a sexual slave for Al Bagddadi), and recruiting additional women to ISIS. I find it hard to gin up much pity for anyone who was complicit in the enslavement of other women and now complains about her own harsh conditions, and about the fact that she is a pariah.
"Who is responsible for us?" asks Sarah Ibrahim. The answer now, Sarah, is that you are responsible for yourself, where or not you chose to live under ISIS or that choice was made for you.
33
Have the members of the all-female " Al-Khansaa Brigade" been found accountable for their brutal actions?
4
Who wants to be identified as a sympathizer after being caught? To move to Syria from the west or any other country required large effort and there was enough time during that process for the wives to rethink if they wanted to accompany their spouses. I believe that most were into radical Islam and moved to Syria because of that reason. I think it is a big mistake for any western government to take these people back. They and their children are the seeds to radicalize others when they come back setting the grounds for future terror.
42
Sometime your role in life is simply to be a warning to others. They made their bed, now it is time to sleep in it
25
I feel for these women and children. And I feel that as soon as the over 10,000,000 other Syrian refugees who fled FROM not TO ISIS are resettled into decent living conditions, these people should immediately have their needs addressed.
41
Many, if not most, of those 10,000,000 'refugees' are economic migrants and/or sympathetic towards ISIS.
ISIS, after all, must just a bunch of devout religious people as are most of the 10,000,000 'refugees' who 'fled' Syria.
ISIS just took everything a slight more literal than most of their coreligionists.
2
I'm willing to bet that you have never personally met anyone from Syria.
“We made a mistake, but everyone in the world makes mistakes,” she said. “How long can we pay the price for a mistake? For our whole lives?”
There are errors, mistakes and decisions that lead ones life into darkness and destruction.
Tragically, the answer to your question “How long can we pay the price for a mistake? For our whole lives?” may well be "yes".
68
Especially yes- may they have a lifelong period of atonement since they aided efforts that destroyed lives of non- isis families forever. And too, as they practice “an eye for an eye” so literally.
Talk about rehabilitation when they literally start taking Holy Communion of forgiveness - as applies to others not living up to their own expectations.
2
Majority Muslim countries must step up and help their co-workers religionists. It's only right.
10
I once dated a flight attendant whose previous boyfriend, I gradually learned, was a minor drug lord. At the least, she helped him smuggle suitcases full of cash. He also bought her expensive cars and jewelry. She shrugged it off with a "stand by your man" attitude, as if any good girlfriend/wife would do the same, especially if he's a good provider of baubles, bangles, and beads.
Like it or not, many women are programmed by biology or society to go so far as to join the jihad if their husbands ordain it. (For that matter, watch any nature show and see how strong is the bond between coupled pairs of many species.)
6
Oh seriously, how is this any more true than that men are programmed by biology or society to be violent?
5
They are not innocent. They provided aid and comfort to monsters, making it easier for them to commit their atrocities. Let them rot in the limbo they created for themselves.
37
I find it hard to have any sympathy for such misguided souls, as I do also for those who join cults, etc. in their search for the meaning of life. But I also find it difficult not to accept their submissions that they deserve a second chance - and mistakes, albeit of a rather extreme nature, should not bar them for redemption.
10
Hope they do not come to UK or US
27
There are many lonely hearts in the world. Why not create a website for these women to find a husband? I know it's not a perfect solution, but it at least gives them another option.
1
Ray, honestly, what man in his right mind wants to take on a shrouded woman with a gaggle of kids and no skills who condoned sexual slavery for "infidels" and perhaps recruited other women into a 7th century legal system in which Islamic women had no rights and "infidels" could be enslaved and killed with no repercussions?
42
Katz, I think you'd be surprised.
Some of the comments are so disturbing and so full of hate that I had problems to read them. We are still a society of Christian roots and the word of redemption should be recognized, by people as well as by governments.
To help these women and their mostly small children out of the misery of such a trist camp is a necessary human obligation. There should be action! Otherwise our society is loosing its face.
14
that is exactly what they were there to do, to wipe out the face of others. beginning with the faces of women. perhaps their children have redeemed their souls now. but the fact that no one knows what to do with them because of their religious affinities reveals alot about what even other muslim religions think about it. they cant be trusted so they will always live their. and their children will grow up like palestinian refugees. ready to bomb and to kill. so they cant stay there. but they have to.
5
All actions have consequences. It is easy to feel bad and sorry for the plight of these "innocent" women and children. Seriously, would they care two hoots for Yazidies or Kurds when they had the upper hand and who were also in a similar situation? Bad choices have bad consequences. In this case they have only themselves to blame.
47
Again, Westerners are completely obtuse and lack any common sense about these people. DO NOT GIVE THEM ANOTHER CHANCE!
1. "The women are generally well behaved, he said, although it is hard to determine what roles they may have performed under the jihadists and how much of the ideology they still endorse."
Just remember their backgrounds and look at their religious coverings and the raised finger in the photo. That is your answer.
2. “You told us to leave ISIS and we left, but we are still considered ISIS... So who is responsible for us? Who will determine our fate?”
The sense of entitlement and lack of remorse is astounding. I can answer their questions: You determined your own fate and you are responsible for yourself once you left a civilized western nation (that graciously welcomed you) and joined terrorists.
3.
“Don’t we deserve, what do you call it, redemption?”
“We made a mistake, but everyone in the world makes mistakes"
“How long can we pay the price for a mistake? For our whole lives?”
“Of course we made mistakes, but anyone can make a mistake..."
Some mistakes have profound consequences. You don't "deserve" redemption. You may ask for redemption and try to prove yourself, but you don't deserve it and you're not entitled to it simply because you realized you "made a mistake." These women are trying to minimize the gravity of their actions by calling their involvement with terrorists a mistake.
These people are are no longer welcomed in civilized world.
112
Also they demand redemption-but show no signs of remorse. How many of these women have gone to the Yazidi community and apologized and offered to do something for them
1
This is the sad risk you take when you marry your future.
The response of these comments are the sign of a world that can not “love their enemies “ no matter their God’s command
7
The irony of ISIS converts residing in a UNHCR camp created and staffed by the very people that they were slaughtering and beheading is poignant - I hope they rot there.
41
It's hard to hear these women's pleas for mercy or "redemption" when they're still shrouded from head to toe, especially the so called "western women" who made the trip to meet or be with their dreamboat jihadists. They made a "mistake"... what? A mistake is marrying a guy you just don't get along with, not bolting from your native land with creature comforts and women's rights to follow a thug to the desert. The only explanation that makes sense to me is the "western" women left because along with their husbands they had a clear resentment for the country they lived in and the people within it. How about an APOLOGY and an assurance that your kids won't announce a jihad against the country that has the heart to accept them back. Maybe getting rid of the Hijab would be a good start.
39
"A mistake?" That just shows the immense ignorance and ideological beliefs that trace their roots to blind faith. If it weren't for the innocent children, I would just say, you made your bed now lie in it.
22
Sitting there wearing the garb and flashing gang hand signals that indicate allegiants to evil then pleading redemption? If Hillary had won the election these 'victims'would likely be in the US already as the previous administration allowed Central American women and children of ms-13 to join the flood of people across our southern border without any vetting what so ever.
I'm all for the opportunity of redemption for some these folks though...as long as no liberals/democrats are involved.
.
18
You really ooze fear as to someone taking advantage of you? Why? U.S has strict immigration policies, they have been in place for centuries and only now, the Tweeting Toad is playing up this issue, rousing hatred and intolerance. May-be you should visit Honduras and Guatemala and feel some things on your own skin rather than talk nonsense out of the comfort of your trailer.
4
For a start, how about providing these women with birth control, since they seem to have more children than they can provide for. Next, education and job training. Oh, ISIS doesn't provide that? Maybe that's why they don't have a stable Islamic state.
10
The problem is the children. No toddler is quilty for their parents crimes.
However, these women are another story. There is nothing innocent about them, they are idiots and monsters and it’s no surprise that their countries don’t want them back.
The children need to be removed and sent home to relatives or foster systems or whatever their countries have for parentless children. But anything will be better than the indoctrination they will receive from their mothers.
And the mothers? Who cares. They knew what ISIS was doing when they joined their husbands; burning people alive, decapitations, mass slavery. Iraq has the right idea for these monsters.
47
Oh! I'm sorry. My husband cut your head off. Well we all make mistakes. Sympathy. I don't think so.
63
" ... There are some of them who are still following the ideology, and there are some who came because they thought they were coming to heaven and found out it was hell ..."
Well, it was, what they made it to be.
As most European countries have a law that means that once you take on citizenship of another country, in this case the IS, you lose your original citizenship, the solution is easy, repatriate them to the place that is central to Islam, send them all to Saudi Arabia.
That should feel familiar as well, so no one would have to learn new ropes:
The law is Sharia
Religious teachings are extreme
Women have no rights
That should fit them perfectly.
Plus, Trump really endorses the kingdom as a model society...
16
Really? Mass beheadings didn't tip them off as to what they were getting into?
Perhaps their salvation will come from a Time magazine cover story: "The Forgotten Children of Isis" with an image of a crying child living in the "sweltering" conditions of the detention camp. That should prompt Kamala Harris to advocate on their behalf, blame it all on Trump, and before you know it, these mothers will be on MSNBC being fawned over by Rachel Maddow.
30
I lost all sympathy when I saw the photo of the woman on the left holding up her left index finger which is the ISIS sign. Chilling.
All the woman should be investigated thouroughly to find the few who may have been forced by fathers and family members. The rest just detained there for life. Most importantly the children should be removed immediately and put up for adoption to non-Muslim families to deprogram them so they can live full lives.
31
Send them all back to their countries of origin which presumably have laws to deal with these actions of their own nationals. Yes, it may go particularly badly for them (and perhaps their children) in Islamic Republics but that's the breaks. I suspect their level of culpability (for treason and other crimes) varies from person to person and questions of proof may be difficult.
13
I have empathy for the women who were forced to go there but none for those who voluntarily chose this path. Sadly it is the children who will pay the price.
The Kurds should not have to pay for these women alone. Western countries should bring them home and make sure they get a fair trial. Their humanity needs to be recognized so that their children do not grow up to be terrorists.
Perhaps we should examine how the allies treated Nazi sympathizers post WWII. Sometimes history can help us deal with the present.
14
So the article says that ISIS created a refugee crisis, much like Trumpler has at the southern border of the US.
Obviously, this sort of "leadership" is to be avoided.
Hey GOP, a little more care in the selection of your presidential nominees, please.
1
Not appropriate. The situation predates the current US president.
3
Tough call. Do you want to kill the children now or in a gun fight in twenty years time?
13
Well,well, well. Looks the"hateful" USA is not the only nation on earth that is saying no thanks to migrants and/or "asylum" seekers.
I know there is a difference between those leaving Central America and relatives of ISIL fighters. But ultimately both groups are only trying to "improve their lives."
No more open or quasi-open borders for anyone of any race, any ethnic group, any color, any gender, or anything else. The host nation decides who gets in.
8
Hard to have sympathy for people that make the decision to join one of the worlds most notorious terrorist groups. Yes, help the children who have no decision in the matter, but there is no room in peaceful countries to take back those who leave to join ISIS.
24
I mean in all honesty there's absolutely nothing to do. If they are citizens, they should be returned, jihadist or no. If there are laws in place to apprehend them for possible crimes then that option should be followed, and if there aren't, then the west must simply show that their claims of moral high ground ring true, and let these people return to comfortable lives in the countries they scorn and condemn.
3
Given how little power lower-class women have in many Arab societies, and even Islamic immigrant households in Western societies, many of them must have had little choice. Their husbands decided, and they went. The children, of course, had no choice at all. There should be some room for compassion in this situation. Unfortunately, if they are repatriated, they are likely to face shunning, abuse, or possibly even execution when they return home. However, if a humane solution is not found, their sons will grow up destitute and resentful and become the next generation of terrorists.
18
"how long can we pay the price for a mistake"?
Well, the people that ISIS killed and enslaved and raped will be paying the price for the rest of their lives or have already paid the ultimate price. I am always confused by this attitude. You took lives and ruined lives, but as soon as you realize and claim "it was a mistake" you feel that all should be forgiven. That is not generally the way things work nor should it be the way it works. Get the kids into foster homes and try the adults.
40
History repeats itself.
Many before and many after; people willing to believe the lies of its so called leaders. Called to arms to fight for something that turned out to be a corrupt venture, to overthrow reason and good will in order to declare a new world and a new distribution.
Sound familiar?
18
It seems everyone has strong opinions on what to do with these women. More the reason for countries should take them off the Kurds' hands and try them. The Kurds definitely have better things to do with their money and time.
10
Leave them and their children to fend for themselves. You made the choice, now you get to live with it. I feel no remorse or responsibility for any of them. Turn them loose in the desert. Let them pray to thir God. Maybe he will take care of them now
35
Take the children back if they are at an age where they can be reeducated. Otherwise, they should make Syria a better place.
7
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. ISIS tried to set up a Sharia state just like how the Nazis tried to create a 'Greater Germania' out of seized territories in eastern Europe. 'Pure' families came to the occupied territory, living like royalty even as many locals were conscripted for slave labor or murdered outright thanks to religous/ethnic differences that displeased those in charge. Then the charismatic evildoers lost their war and the fools who'd blindly followed them had to face deprivation, imprisonment, and deportation.
Nazi widows were forced to come to terms with the fact that every action has consequences, including such actions as passive indifference that kept them from vocalizing opposition to the murder of minorities or war against other nations. Perhaps these ISIS widows can explain to their children the same lesson that many Nazi widows had to explain to their children some seventy years earlier.
33
Well, Nazi widows were forced to come to terms with facts that, really, many other Germans should have been forced to come to terms with as well but in many cases were not. Just as, in France, women who collaborated were punished in ways that men who collaborated were not. Some of these women participated freely, some did not, but even so, it is a core western value of not imposing guilt purely by association. If these women did not commit crimes then the countries they are citizens of should be willing to let them return. Some don't want to return but that's a totally different issue that does indeed raise a lot of complex issues.
2
Comparing Islamic jihadist and Nazisis not entirely equivalent. All but a few nazis surrendered and meant it. Jihadist surrender and disavow old allegiances as a tactic to continue mischief later when opportunity arises. Folks Obama released from Guantanamo illustrate this.
5
I'm sorry, these women aren't incapable creatures. No one forced them to leave their countries to join ISIS, even if they weren't directly committing the crimes. Just like mental weakness shouldn't be considered for males, it shouldn't be considered for females.
How many of these women that want forgiveness for their "mistakes" would have left ISIS if they had managed to carve out and keep their caliphate? Would they still have come to regret their decision if they were living in a confiscated house with slaves and stolen wealth? Doubtful. Just like felons everywhere they're only sorry once they're caught.
68
Indeed, exactly what I was thinking once I read this article. Thank you
12
Some of these women are probably more blameworthy than others, but their children are not. I would take the practical view of not wanting to spawn another generation so desperate for acceptance that they are willing to do anything to get it.
20
Sorry. No sympathy for them.
You reap what you sow.
Did they not know what ISIS was doing?
Have they heard of what was done to the Yezidi women and children?
There is a point at which you stop condoning psychopaths and their enablers.
50
Every person is endowed with 'free will' - let these women figure it out for themselves....why should Western taxpayers, fund their stupidity?
30
One Egyptian woman married to a Syria with four children said: “We made a mistake, but everyone in the world makes mistakes,” she said. “How long can we pay the price for a mistake? For our whole lives?”
For the moment it looks like as if they are not wanted by their own countries.
It takes time to survey what the impact of their lives under ISIS would have on them and their children. In recent years many terrorist attacks in the West had been carried out by home-grown terrorists, radicalised online. It explains why Western governments are reluctant to take back their citizens who had lived under ISIS, fearing they had been brutalised and might do harm to others once back home.
25
I look around me and the biggest problem I see is the teeming humanity and they just keep coming. Let us deal with what’s on our plates now and if we got time we’ll deal with these folks. But when we think about how ISIS blew up heritage sites we really do want to punish someone, might as well be the wives and kids.
9
Think it’s time for some population control? FOUR children? We had two children, because that’s all we could afford.
11
That is one of the things I would not say, but to be honest, feel. I had no patience with my own former religion's ant Birth control stance, and none for others with an ignorant and archaic belief system.
Population control? Please. Can't mess around with people's reproductive rights. Want to see examples of child abuse? Look at those so-called adults who can't afford to feed, house, clothe the fruit of their loins but bring forth one every year or so.
2
The barbarity of ISIS first of all does not represent Islam. The men and women who committed these despicable abhorrent crimes are thugs, criminals. They are not the vast majority of Muslims. Recall, if you will, most victims of ISIS were Muslims. Yes, they also went after others, Christians and Yazidis, but most of the victims were fellow Muslims. Beyond that, what to do with the women? No easy answer. Did some go willingly? Yes, of course. They participated in the brutality and went along. Now they want forgiveness. Other women were forced into it. How many women today are in jail in the USA because they claim husbands forced them to sell drugs? I wish I could offer a solution. Perhaps let them go back to their countries, face the judicial system, and let the cards fall as they might. I don't know. Tell what role you played, tell what happened, try to prevent this from happening again. Send the children to their families. Let the adults face charges in a court of law, even if it is a court they don't like. I just don't know. In the end, these women have to answer to Allah for what they did.
17
Very few of these women and children are citizens of the United States, but not zero. The best known is Samatha Sally.
We should take them back, prosecute them if there are grounds, but America should not simply terminate their citizenship without due process.
14
Terminate? She forfeited her citizenship by her actions.
13
Treason is cause for termination of citizenship. People are not entitled to stand with our enemies and expect no consequences.
13
I'm not sure she forfeited it, that's for a lawyer to decide, but she certainly committed treason. That should be life in prison or, with a plea bargain, 20 years in prison (remember the American Taliban).
1
As the comments here overwhelmingly affirm: in a world teeming with desperate, displaced people, ISIS wives are way down on the compassion and redemption priority list.
74
What does it cost a month to house and feed these women and kids?
Who provides the funding for those costs?
7
Since the birth of ISIS can be traced through its political DNA straight to an unholy union between Dick Cheney's family of oil robbers and a festering Bush cabinet giddy for mass murder in Iraq, the responsibility for caring for these women and children lies squarely on the USA. If anyone deserves refugee status in the USA, it is these people. Of course, they would have to be carefully vetted and monitored to ensure no radical activity, but that is the right thing to do. However, with the USA now in the throes of full-blown fascism, it is not even on the radar of Americans to care for the victims of their past, war criminal leaders.
6
Yes, Dick Cheney made these good people execute non believers, blow up innocents with bombs strapped to small children, and burn to death and torture prisoners of war. He made them seize foreign territory and impose harsh Islamic rule.
Such a powerful man.
24
I think WR's point is that ill-considered Neo Con intervention created the vacuum that ISIS - Sunni Iraqis in part - filled.
ISIS emerged out uf the Shiite/Sunni civil war that followed our invasion of Iraq. Yes, these women and children are among the many victims of that colossal stupidity.
When will the authors of that war--Cheney and his buds--be held accountable? Around the time Wall Street is her accountable for nearly tanking the world economy a decade ago.
What did these women think they were becoming by joining IS? Beekeepers in black shrouds?
43
Some commenters are saying that these Muslm women didn’t have a choice to not join their ISIS husbands. Do we need other reasons why the US should not accept Muslim refugees from third world countries. These women are slaves to a patriarchal society that will not change just because they live in the West. This is why many of us in the US and Europe don’t want them here.
59
The people profiled in this article deliberately left their home countries to join ISIS - some of the women undoubtedly felt they had no choice but to accompany their husbands, while others may have wanted to join ISIS as well. I can see why countries are reluctant to repatriate this group, while I have sympathy for the children of course, who are entirely innocent and made none of these choices. Some resolution must be found for them.
But leaving aside the question of what happens now to these particular people, I don't think they are considered refugees. The Muslim refugees who have been fleeing the wars in Yemen and Syria are in a completely different situation and deserve the world's help and sympathy, including in the United States.
22
That is completely absurd. No one is a ‘slave’ to a patriarchal ideology. That implies free will and choice. It’s pure economics and control. Why do poor women in inner cities in the USA stay with abusive male partners and have children with them? Why do poor or disenfranchised women anywhere in the world (including the ‘third’ and ‘first’ worlds - absurdly backward terminology) have fewer choices than educated rich empowered ones?
The women in this article either bought into fundamentalist ideology and went along willingly or they simply had no choice to stay behind alone and support themselves and their kids while their husbands went off. It’s a mixed bag and the causes of their behaviour are many, complex, and nuanced. Just like the behaviour of all humans, of all religions, all races, all over the world.
This bigoted worldview of painting large swathes of humanity with one brush is exactly that of your idiotic presidents’.
2
It's important to distinguish between jihadists/ISIS sympathizers and Muslims. Using these few women as examples for why the U.S. should reject all Muslims is unfair. Just as there are Christians and Jews in name only, i.e., "cultural Christians" or "cultural Jews", so too are there Muslims who are not particularly observant or who do not observe Islam to the very letter. It's hard to imagine that even very observant Muslims would come here to try to "change" America. But it's long past time to stop generalizing an entire religion.
3
People who live in a 7th century culture should live in a country that embodies their beliefs. That leaves out all Western nations.
70
These women and their children did not commit any crimes or atrocities against anyone unless the courts can prove so!! They, without a doubt made a stupid mistake by joining their husbands into the hell of the Syrian civil war, and they are paying the price for that. All their governments would sadly make a similar mistake by not negotiating their return and working with non profits to make sure the children are rehabilitated. The US government made a horrific mistake invading Iraq but none of us went to chastise our soldiers and none involved in that monumental blunder has ever been prosecuted! We Americans are more than often stupidly righteous. We should also grow up and pay the price.
11
No doubt they will all claim innocence, their black veils guaranteed anonymity. Instead, they should all be considered complicit at the very least.
2
I'm afraid the deafening screams of the real victims of their escapades drowns out any ability to hear the complaints they may now have.
62
An impossible situation. There is no way to know which of these women are guilty of crimes but they all came to a place the world knew was condoning horrific crimes against humanity. The women from the Western world could easily have NOT gone so they have a responsibility. I am glad I don't have to make a judgment on what to do. If it wasn't for the children I may have some answer....but not those with children
16
Life isn't fair. And no one can make it fair; we live with consequences.
15
It seems to me that the countries of the world need to come together to help build migrant communities instead of camps. The middle East has been torn apart and instead of mass migration we need to look a re-settlement options.
7
I think of the interview with the Tsarnaev brother's mother, who said that America should burn for what it did to her sons These people managed to pass various interviews to get into the US, but were clearly radical. They are good actors. The best solution is to take the children away and leave the mothers where they intentionally went. These women are accessories to their husband's horrendous acts, which included murder, torture and rape. They continue to wear religious clothing and seem to consider running off to another country to murder people a "mistake". They can rot in the desert, I would want any one of them living in a neighborhood near me. Amazing how people who break the law, don't seem to understand there are consequences.
28
This is important to remember. That ungrateful woman was able to receive plenty of benefits from US taxpayers.
7
"When her husband uprooted their family from Morocco to live under the Islamic State in Syria"
Morocco provides for unilateral ("no-fault") divorce, automatic awarding of custody of children to the mother, and automatic awarding of alimony and/or child support to a female plaintiff.
While it may be fashionable in the U.S. to think of women in Muslim countries as oppressed, the Moroccan woman actually has substantially greater rights in family court than does the U.S.
Moroccan law also mandates equal pay for women, a fact that caused our busload of cruise ship passengers to erupt in applause when it was explained by our guide (see http://blogs.harvard.edu/philg/2017/10/13/status-of-women-in-morocco/ ).
It is unfortunate that the New York Times would perpetuate a stereotype of Moroccan women as helpless victims without agency.
61
It’s called Orientalism
“the representation of Asia, especially the Middle East, in a stereotyped way that is regarded as embodying a colonialist attitude.”
3
I hit submit too soon! The quote from the article that I meant to extract was "When her husband uprooted their family from Morocco to live under the Islamic State in Syria, Sarah Ibrahim had little choice but to go along."
Emphasis on "[the woman] had little choice".
As Scott suggests, we learn more about Americans than about Moroccans from the fact that the journalist thought it unnecessary to support with evidence the assertion that Moroccan women lack choices.
2
“So who is responsible for us? Who will determine our fate?”
This is what the world has come to, sadly. Once, creatures' natural instincts didn't even pause for a moment to ask. Millions of years of adaptive evolution to enable sustainable survival now supplanted by the last 2000 years of self-destructive modernity. Talk about retrogression.
5
what if the difference between us and them is that we judge people for what they had done and not for what we presume they are? I cannot believe we have no choice but let them rotten in the desert of northern Syria. Perhaps setting up a court to define each individuals' responsibility is not sucha a big deal. Perhaps looking after those kids with humanity will prevent them and other kids to become jihadist. I might be wrong, but this is what makes us the daughters and the sons of the christianity first and of illuminsm thereafter.
10
They are collateral damage, not collaborators. Most of the commenters vilifying these Women are Males, without any idea of the lives Women must live in many Muslim communities. And that's under the best of Circumstances. And what about the Children ??? What choice did they have ??? If they will not be allowed to return " home ", perhaps the best solution is resettlement. Step up, Saudi Arabia. You can spare the money, AND gain some great PR. Just saying.
15
You argue for the faultlessness and lack of agency of women and children but then want them resettled to Saudi Arabia? Even if Saudi Arabia did participate in the 3rd country resettlement program, which countries would sanction resettling women there? Would you want to be resettled there, knowing your beliefs about how "Women must live in many Muslim communities?"
3
I didn't say settle in SA. SA could pay for them to settle elsewhere. Better than what they have NOW.
1
No one knows whether they are collaborators or collateral damage. It is in their interest to claim they are innocent victims "forced" to accompany their husbands. Sorry, I don't buy it. These women and their children are too much of a risk to be returned to Western countries. I have no sympathy and I am not a man.
1
"Most of the Europeans want to go home, even if that means standing trial, but few of the Arabs do, fearing that they will be tortured or executed."
This tells you everything you need to know about the difference between the West and the Islamic world.
109
Let's not forget to again thank George Bush and the Republicans for destroying the Middle East, and, with Trump's and the Republicans' assistance, possibly the world.
19
Oh please, the blunder of the Obama Administration in the Middle East are myriad as well...
12
Yes... you're right! The middle east was such a peaceful and just place and their was no al Qaeda before they attacked us on 911 after 8 years of a democratic president. You're right though...those darn crusaders centuries ago should have never set foot in their region and the Christian countries in Europe should have allowed that Ottoman Empire to ransack the continent when they wanted to.
8
"who is responsible for us?" Why not give these women some lumber or stone and let them build their own city and be responsible for themselves. The western educated women rejected western values, voluntarily put sheets over their heads and ran away to a land of enslavement, repression and beheadings. They can redeem themselves. I am not responsible for their present situation. Meanwhile western countries must do what they can to get rid of fundamentalist claptrap.
76
“Don’t we deserve, what do you call it, redemption?” she asked.
No. You made your bed, lie in it. You rejected that concept and the benefits of living in France, a Western democracy, for jihad and ISIS. Redeem yourself in Syria, under Islam. Don’t expect someone to take you to France for Christian redemption.
46
“Don’t we deserve, what do you call it, redemption?” she asked
No, not really!
Sitting there with your faces covered, you show that you still live the extreme Islam. I don't want you here. We can however discuss if your children can leave and join their grandparents & family.
80
Wearing a veil is not synonymous with extreme Islam.
Just a little charity and understanding for folks that have lived different and almost certainly far more difficult lives than your own might be appropriate here.
8
Saudi Arabia should take them on humanitarian grounds.
15
Hmmm. SA is not a country, like most in the ME that is associated with the word "humanitarian" very often. It is their way of thinking and living that most often gives rise to these types of movements.
12
AI:
Good! Then they have the chance to change it from within.
Saudi Arabia is the perfect place for them to go. Or Iran. How about that?
1
KBN. Couldn't agree more.
In one accompanying photo, one of the women is giving what has been identified as the ISIS salute. Maybe she doesn't know that. Or maybe she does, but thinks that everyone seeing the photo is too ignorant to know what it means. It worked for the Marines, but not for an ISIS wife wanting to get out of that camp.
If any of these women had begged that their young children be taken from the camp to be put with relatives, or made wards of the state, there would be more pity for their situation. As it is, there will be little sympathy shown.
42
Yes, she IS giving the ISIS salute. This is her choice. To say that these women are or were not in collusion the tenets of ISIS is sheer ignorance.
11
The Obama administration allowed ISIS (the JV team) to prosper and grow. Perhaps it's time for him to use his foundation to alleviate a little of the misery his administration caused?
18
And perhaps G.W. Bush should give away every last penney of his money including his foundation to atone for the incredible mess he created in the Middle East. Malfeasance unequaled in modern history.
20
I guess there are consequences to some behaviors, although it is unfortunate that they extend to the next generation. Somethings you do cannot be set aside with "I'm sorry" or "I didn't mean anything" or "I was only following (my husband's) orders.)
17
Bonafide US citizens should be repatriated. If they are suspected of criminal activity they should be investigated and charged as appropriate. Citizenship is a two-way street. to expect citizen loyalty we must show loyalty in return. We are supposedly a nation of laws. Let's follow them.
9
It would seem you are correct except when it comes to immigration. Those laws can be selectively enforced it seems.
5
As far as we're aware, all US Citizens involved in ISIS have fled, been repatriated or prosecuted by the Iraqi and Syrian government. We are not aware of any American citizens being detained by militia forces.
Nope. They willingly made their beds in the deserts of the ME.
3
Those who voluntarily joined ISIS made their choice. Their mindset makes them hostile to their home countries and now would be a danger to the stability of the country they left. They might incite or radicalize others. They made their choice, now have to pay the consequences of their choice.
38
Part of the US Army ethos is that " I will leave a fallen comrade". And we don't. I think that same mentality should apply with any US citizen. We need to bring them home and let our justice system deal with them. That is what we do and that is who we are.
4
You mean, "I will NOT leave a fallen comrade"?
5
Filled with hubris, George W. Bush opened up a hornets nest with Dick Cheney and the other advocates of their project for a new century for the middle east. John Bolton was also a signatory to the hardship that continues. Yet more refugees throughout the area whose suffering is ignored by the Trump administration. Heck, he didn't even care about Puerto Rico.
If it was Norway, he'd see things differently. Humanitarian is not a word in his vocabulary-- nor is a speck of it in his soul.
8
Let's see, remind me ... who was president, and who was his Secretary of State, when we and NATO allies imposed regime change in Libya and set loose hordes of ISIS terrorists on the world.
8
ISIS essentially began in 2004 as the Sunni terror group al Qaeda in Iraq and went on to fight in Syria ...ISIS originated as Al-Qaeda's branch in Iraq and became active after the 2003 U.S. invasion and televised hanging of former Iraqi President Saddam Hussein.
Many members were former military officers from Iraq who lost positions, pay and pensions when Bush Junior + Cheney/Paul Bremmer installed a provisional government. Angered, they became militants.
went on to fight in Syria ...ISIS originated as Al-Qaeda's branch in Iraq and became active after the 2003 U.S. invasion of Iraq and the hanging death of former Iraqi President Saddam Huss
My heart goes out to the children and to an extent to these women, quite a few of those probably were forced to come the ISIS Paradise. But then I can also understnad the reluctance on the part of their countires of birth/origin as to why they would be unwilling to take them back. Tough One. I have a solution. Why not let Muslim men from the Muslim world come and look at these women and see if they want to marry them and take'em back to their countries. At this stage of the game these women have nothign to loose.
7
Sure, set up a "market" for wives. What could go wrong?
As someone outside that culture I find that abhorrent, but the pragmatism is not lost on me either.
17
I'm reading through all the comments and have nothing positive to offer because the situation is so complicated.
However, your idea of getting single Muslim men involved to marrying/adopting one of these families is the best so far. I do not know if this is allowed in the Muslim religion. In addition, Muslims around the world, and there are many of them should rise, step forward and be the first to extend a helping hand. These women and their children would culturally feel more at home in a Muslim country.
2
Shekster:
And those Muslim countries are not exactly lining up waiting to take them in.
I cannot fathom why!?
"Their home countries do not want them back"
Not our problem. Send them home and let the chips fall.
Islam being the greatest thing since sliced bread, there's no chance those returning to Islamic countries have anything to fear.
31
But we are one of the countries who don’t want them back. Are you saying send them here?
3
They joined up with people who were beheading others, so yes they can be lumped up in those who were doing the beheading.
35
Give me a break. I've heard of softball interviews, but this is pure cotton candy. Here are a few questions you'd think any reporter would want the answers to:
When you joined ISIS, were you aware of the public behedings they conducted? What do you think of them then?
When you joined ISIS, were you under the mpression that it practiced universal tolerance, or were you aware that it wants to wipe out embers of other religions? What was your opinion of that?
Did you have a Yazidi slave? Do you think Yazidis should be slaves?
But no. Instead of journalism we get this slovenly sob-sister nonsense.
.
321
Bob Acker,
Given the ability to ask questions - even the names of the western women - do you seriously believe the journalist could have asked your questions? Not saying they aren't good questions or that I too wouldn't be interested in hearing the answers.
5
The Times should interview the head of the Syrian Ministry of Reconciliation who has stated that the government of Syria has had the problem of where to send captured foreign jihadists. Syria did not invite these beheaders or their families. The aggressor governments of the U.S., NATO and their Gulf Monarchist allies - who assured safe passage of the jihadists into Syria, who armed them, funded them, who bought oil and industrial equipment stolen from Syria - refuse to repatriate them. What we know is that many planetary disasters - war and warming - are carried out by the U.S. and its allies. These culprits need to be brought to justice.
4
As a non-Christian, I would like to know whether I am also required to subscribe to your beliefs in Original Sin on your planet, or whether there is freedom of thought there?
Require each woman to do a job: write her story and her children's story. Write the story of the man with whom she was involved. NGOs that will build and execute this project are not hard to find. I can likely find a funded NGO right now that would be eager to help. This is not "make work," but a real way to provide simultaneously therapy and training. As part of its remit, a true NGO will represent this population to the various governments with any stake in the situation.
Look at the tent markings: clearly the UNHCR (High Commission for Refugees) has a stake here, even if tiny. Let's get the stories told, let's get the women to tell them.
18
There's no better embodiment of "giving comfort to the enemy" than what the wives in this article did.
In establishing a so-called "caliphate", do you think it can be done without women? No, they played an equal but just as consequential role as the fighters.
I'm not sure what to do with them but I do know that these women are totally incompatible with the modern world, just like everyone else who believed in ISIS.
41
I' almost literally speechless here. The heartlessness, the lack of compassion, and the complete lack of empathy in these comments is astounding!
How are these women any different from the women fleeing central America? Both fell in with bad men in many cases. Both groups realized it. Both groups have broken some laws; perhaps immigration laws, perhaps laws that made the ISIS caliphate illegal. And both groups, having recognized the error of their ways, are now seeking redemption.
The Central Americans, once detained, are claiming asylum. And the ISIS wives, once their society collapsed, are also seeking refuge.
Why is it that the former wives of Central American gang members and their children get our pity, but these women and their children don't? My guess is that it's sheer Islamophobia.
Any true progressive, and compassionate person, will realize this and will recommend the same policy for both groups. We need to take these people in. To lock them up, with their children or especially without their children, is a crime against humanity! And WE need to take them in, not other countries, because WE are the ones who created these problems.
It was out meddling in both Central America and the Middle East that created this crisis of humanity, and this tide of refugee women, and it's our responsibility to take these women and their children in.
Had Hillary Clinton won, her plan was to significantly increase the number of refugees we would take in.
11
Trans, another reason so many millions of us are happy Hiliary lost. We don’t need criminal refugees in this country. NO!
7
The difference is that they went to the enemy. They gave “aid and comfort” to the enemy. That is treason and it’s ultimately punishable by death.
Their home countries could take them and charge them with treason, with each woman getting an independent trial...
8
".. having recognized the error of their ways, are now seeking redemption"
It's possible you are correct. But that is not how I interpret the interviews. This reads more to me like, "I recognize that I decided to join up with a terrorist organization that was not as good at world domination as I'd hoped. Now help me out of this tight spot."
If so, that has a distinctly different feel to me than, say, a woman who is fleeing her Central American neighborhood because its organized crime violence is affecting her ability to live a productive life (e.g. work, go to school, etc.).
25
The problem is that under the western system of jurisprudence, most of these women committed no crime, so if they are allowed to go back to Germany, France, Holland, Belgium, UK or US, they can treat this whole event as a bad episode and continue their lives as if nothing happened and they may continue to indoctrinate their children in the dangerous ideology that ISIS espoused. Having them spend a good part of their lives in the desert limbo may be the only punishment that can be doled out to them.
25
That would be punishing innocent children along with their parents. And that could end up creating a whole new generation of resentful young people with another jihad in mind. How is that better?
3
We are the most hated country/society in the Middle East, yet we are always, always expected to be there to support, repair, and redeem every mistake they make. But when the Great Satan does nothing or doesn't act quickly to give them what they want, we are vilified. We can't win. So why try. This is a prime example of the dog biting the hand that feeds it.
It's time to pick up the bowl and realize that this dog will never, never change. The billions and billions of dollars we waste there should be used to fix our infrastructure and create jobs, to educate our children and come up with a working and equitable healthcare system that actually cares for people, not just support it's bloated business.
We should use this foreign aide at home to support programs here where they are sorely needed. All the money in the world will not change their fundamentalist religious hatred of anything not Muslim, especially America.
58
Perhaps true, but the government just gave a whole lot of money to rich folks. Now that is money that could be used for infrastructure. Oh, and by the way, the government is very busy cutting services to the very people you point out. It isn’t that there isn’t enough money for needs here at home. It’s because republicans are at war with needy people.
5
Boz, “All the money in the world will not change their fundamentalist religious hatred of anything not Muslim, especially America.” That sums it up in a nut shell. And, yet, they come here for the freebies. Talk about pouring salt in a wound.
Thank you for your comment. Happy 4th.
14
Never let the same dog bite you twice.
4
I'm a little surprised by some of these comments. This being the nyts, it seems these folks are in danger from violence much like the flood at our southern border. Shouldn't we be welcoming them and all their relatives to the u.s. as asylum seekers? They are just more of the hundreds of millions of unhappy, unemployed, as risk people that we are constantly told we should accept from a round the world. Why are they any different? Of coarse, I'm kidding, but isn't it time we looked at refugees differently than just moving everybody here?
24
You shouldn't be, Al. Look how happy those kids in the picture look on their swing set. They've taken all the swing sets from our public parks and schools here no doubt because of some liability issues. We should all be so lucky as to live in refugee camps, just so kids can play as they once used to.
Nope. These are people who are inured to beheadings and violent acts.
Maybe you want them in your neighborhood, but let's take a survey of your neighbors first.
9
The women from France and Germany make me laugh. I've been to both countries. I remember getting off the wrong train station in Bavaria and walked freely to the next one. Such a peaceful, clean place. France, I've been to the south in Nice and even swam in the Mediterranean Sea. And roamed around Paris freely and even the Loire Valley. They gave up all that freedom only to be subjected to living a confined life where they can't listen to music or forced to witness executions or breed children for murderous men. Even some kids were used to shoot and murder captives. Some even some of those kids are probably corrupted. I don't feel sorry for the women. The kids need to be placed in re-education camps. Right now they apparently are not going to any school so that means they will become dysfunctional adults if returned to Europe. In the Arab countries they got the death penalty and torture. The European women are still lucky to wish to go home even to a trial unlike the Arab or Turkish women who might be hanged or executed by a firing squad.
33
So either these women agreed with ISIS, or they were forced to go because they don’t have rights. Which version best exemplifies this “religion of peace”? Tell me again how Muslim immigration is just like that of the Irish? It may be ugly and unfair but it’s not bigoted. Trump is right to stop or limit immigration from these countries.
43
Oh no, it's ugly, unfair, and bigoted. There are 1.4 billion Muslims on the planet Earth, in nearly every nation on early, living absolutely normal lives. To judge all of them by the actions of a single group in a single moment in history is intellectually absurd and patently prejudiced. It is akin to judging all Christians everywhere as kindred to Mladic and the Bosnian genocidaires.
Refugees from Syria and Iraq are fleeing ISIS because they also think it is evil. We should be helping them, not recoiling away in prejudice against people in need.
13
So these women anticipated life under ISIS to be heaven but instead discovered it was hell? The Nazis had a similar vision of a heaven free of so-called lower races and creeds and similar means of achieving it. I don't believe for a second these women didn't know what they were (gladly) abetting.
One of my grandparents was a devout Muslim so I don't speak from religious animus. They made their bed. They can now lie in it.
53
They are the detritus of the Global war on Terror. To ask such moral questions now, is a little late. Where have the voices of dissent been for the past 18 years? This is the beauty and logic of the GWOT: its premises have been so deeply implanted into the public consciousness that more normal, instinctive objection, is cognitively dismissed or more usually, unrecognized in the cognitive calculus. Moreover, "ISIS" is a defense program, not an organic belligerent, and therefore arguably its "collateral damage" such as women and children, a western responsibility, no?
1
"How long can we pay the price for a mistake? For our whole lives?”
Yes.
But your children are innocent. If you would willing to give up your children, then your home nation should take them home and give them to foster families. However, that would have to be your choice.
62
Sure, everyone in the world makes mistakes, but those mistakes are not typically on the order of joining ISIS.
122
"All revolutions devour their children"--'The Wind in my hair' Masih Alinejad
ironic the book review is also in todays NYT
8
"Others said the trip had been a mistake that their children were unjustly paying the price for."
Don't you think you should have thought about that before you went? What did you think would be so great about living in the desert of the Middle East, with no air conditioning? What did you think you were bringing, or bearing your children into? You should be left where you are, but your children should be taken from you and put up for adoption.
47
It’s heartbreaking to read the mean spirited, self righteous comments on this story, all of them I suspect, written from the safety of the so-called American dream. Once again the burden of war falls upon women and children, easily abandoned, more easily forgotten...in this case left to wither and blow into an unforgiving desert. After all, according to these comments, these women and children, abandoned in the desert are the ‘other’ and deserve it. Where is compassion, forgiveness, love? I guess the ‘American’ dream doesn’t include the needs of the soul.
8
They speak apologetically for their actions. Their attire indicates they still hold fast to the ideology.
Let the Yazidi determine the terms of redemption and their ultimate fate. They suffered the most,both from Isis and the Western relief agencies who often put them in refugee camps alongside their tormentors...so as to appear not to favor Christians.
16
Yazidis are not Christians, although their religion is monotheistic.
1
They are wearing the only clothes they have. Being Muslim, in and of itself, isn't radical
3
Yes, everybody makes mistakes but not THESE kinds of mistakes. Many of these women are complicit in murder--think of a driver in robbery where a guard is killed. And then of course there are the kids. One can only imagine what their MISTAKEN parents have or are teaching them.
30
Men rule and to think otherwise is delusion.
Many if not most men and women are brainwashed from birth by their elders to accept and comply with the prevalent culture. Women in situations like this may not all be pawns, but odds are they were physically or mentally dragged into a game which men play and use women for personal gratification.
Religious belief of any sort is the most common tool used by men to mentally and often physically enslave. It is also why otherwise reasonable people allow themselves to engage in the totally unreasonable activity of war.
That so many accept the misleading tenets of religious belief, which purport eternal life with no basis in fact, should indicate how some who have no qualms about distorting the inevitability of death to their advantage will use this male fabrication to their advantage.
Religious belief allows both men and women to be used to their leader's advantage. It is no coincidence the majority of both religious and political leaders are men.
Religion has always been used to obfuscate truth and to think otherwise is to accept the delusion our male rulers have used so successfully for the last several millenia.
Women know the truth and admit mistakes.
Men distort the truth and rarely admit mistakes.
11
Please. Enough with the implication that women have no agency. These women were complicit in the acts of their husbands. They can remain in Syria, with their children, to atone for their acts that were hardly mistakes. Come on, planning a trip to Syria is a crime. A quick google search reveals multiple news headlines of people arrested by the FBI or its foreign cohorts at airports or for planning a trip to Syria.
4
Oh Please, Nazi success rested in part on the material support of spouses and families - who all together kept the ideology going. True Believers. These women are no different, their choices were deliberate, and this is especially true for European women who travelled thousands of miles to support terrorists. They supported a group that in addition to warfare, engaged in beheadings, setting prisoners on fire, slavery, genocide, and the systematic rape of the Yazidi and other women. Of course they are unwanted - who wants to be near people who supported that "government". Until ISIS is totally eradicated - best to just keep them where they are...maybe some jail time in their future - and then something along the lines of de-nazification.
84
It's the Middle-East, where conflict, violence & extreme Islam are life itself. It's the Earth's veritable burning cauldron. If you go there hoping to find heaven & ask who is responsible for you, you are just making a pathetic dark-humored joke! It was always you who were responsible for yourself.
34
Redemption? Now they want mercy for their crimes?They happily supported and married the equivalent of the ges tapo. Now they are sorry. Well boo hoo. Let them rot, even their own countries won't take them. We in the UK, of course, allow them back, back to their welfare lives. It make me want to spit.
38
Sorry, not sorry.
All of life’s choices have consequences, some are good and some are bad, but they are what they are. And some are forever.
Play stupid games you win stupid prizes.
37
Seriously? I'm supposed to feel sorry for these women? They fear they will pay life-long costs for their time with ISIS? Their children are paying the cost as well? I have news for them. Many many innocent people paid the cost for their and their husband's dalliance with ISIS. Many many children lost their families if not their own lives due to what their husbands and often they did as well with ISIS. ISIS is a terror organization. It exists to control the population via violence and threats. Why on earth should I feel sorry for them? And truly, what civilized country would want them back. Yet another attempt by the NYT to promote a sob story that overlooks the reality of just what these people did to find themselves in their current situation. That they are being housed and fed is more than they deserve.
67
Most people will read this very well-written piece and be educated about an issue that is real. Others will perhaps scan the story or headlines and assume some political agenda.
Thought-provoking articles are what they are...nothing more.
4
I agree with most of your comments, but I don’t view the story as the NYT trying to create a sob story for these women. I look at it as providing insight into an international issue, and certainly provoking insightful discussion as illustrated by the comments in these posts.
10
Why is this a problem? These women are complicit in crimes against humanity. They should be put on trial in accordance with the laws of whatever nation they are citizens of. In some Muslim countries they will be executed, and good riddance. In European countries, they should serve time in jail. Their children should be taken away from them. Having a child is not a get-out-of-jail card for murder, rape, terrorism and war crimes. Cry for the Yazidis, Christians, political enemies and secular Muslims whom the husbands of these women tortured, killed, robbed and enslaved. Don’t waste your compassion on those who knew what was going on and stood passively by or helped. If you think there are no female suicide bombers who blew themselves up with babies and toddlers at home, you know nothing about the realities of the Middle East.
61
Suck it up and deal with it, Kurds. You want to be independent? You want to show the world you deserve to be in control of your own fate?
Then deal with an unfortunate problem like the big boys and girls that you are.
7
The kurds are doing a great job. Time for the various nations whose former citizens these women are to them on trial and carry out the resulting sentences. Otherwise however the kurds deal with languishing prisoners will breed more jihadis.
6
Everyone makes mistakes?
Many have lost life, limbs, loved ones for their "mistakes" -- all around the world. The beheaded aren't coming back home any time soon either.
These children will never integrate into a free society; many of them are already radicalized. Why lump toddles together with teenagers by calling them all children? Many women are sure to be radical islamist, and terrorist breeders given the opportunity.
All Westerners who voluntarily joined ISIS should be stripped of their citizenship for treason. All others should be returned to their own or their husband/father's country.
29
Maybe the wives of the men beheaded by ISIS can decide their fate.
77
These women and children (notice I don't say "people"), are property of the men who dragged them around and embraced them with with the misguided love and comfort of a primitive and destructive dogma.
These beings have no notion of self, ambition or how people outside of their habitual, strictly monitored authoritarian lives and cling, in fear to the only thing they know; subservience, obedience to their male owners and mistrust of all else.
I understand the bulk of the comments and I, even though write from a more compassionate point of view, see no immediate solution in the current world order where even justifiably threatened or displaced immigrants cannot get asylum.
13
Imprisoning people for long lengths of time without a trial is a human rights violation. Keeping people detained at camps indefinitely serves no purpose. There needs to be a fair way to determine if they are guilty of anything or should be set free, and the children should be placed in healthier circumstances including receiving educations. The world needs to find a better way than having an increasing number of tent cities all over the place with no plan for the people living there.
9
Welcome to Guantanamo Bay under George Bush then the Republicans in Congress prevented Obama from closing down that prison. And in comes Trump it will never close as long as he is president.
7
I have near boundless sympathy — a real bleeding heart liberal.
But not for these women.
They had their chance to rise up, to take responsibility, to not be accomplices.
Within the camps, the international community should offer the women education and meaningful work responsibilities.
We could also offer them trials under international criminal law, but I doubt they’d want that.
As for the children, give them a proper education for goodness sake, or it is just making matters worse.
44
Let's let the Yazidi people oversee these camps and do whatever they wish with the adults. The "western" children should be sent back to their home countries, be given a forced secular education, and monitored for life.
10
Some of the kids they can't prove their citizenship since many were born in ISIS controlled lands. And some both parents are dead.
3
Allow them to go home, put them on trial. The kids to relatives or are adopted. The support that they gave to IS is a crime. They have a debt to society. Let them pay it.
35
The legal records of medieval Europe are full of similar stories. This is how states—real, legitimate states—were built: By meeting a consumer demand for dispute-resolution (See Dan Smail's "The Consumption of Justice" about similar cases in medieval Marseilles.) What's more, I see a common thread between these petty complaints, the bourgeois of medieval Marseilles, and the online comments of Trump voters: A plea for human (and especially male) dignity and honor. Some might say that this need in a "shame" culture is something that we in our "guilt" culture can't understand... though I would argue also that there are many in our society who use legal and quasi-legal apparatuses (HR departments, university conduct codes, Twitter) to similarly avenge microaggressions.
Are we really so different?
3
So those of us commenting that we don't want these women back in the West are expressing our 'bourgeois complaints' and 'microaggressions?'
These women are complicit either directly or by association in the deaths of 100,000s of thousands of people. These women stood by by when their husbands raped, tortured, and murdered Yadzi's, Shia's, Christians and other Muslims. These women are what's left over of an evil belief system that wanted to create a caliphate where women had no rights, rape and murder were encouraged, and there was no such thing as compassion, equality, music, joy or anything that conveyed any degree of secularism.
43
Early on in its tenure, ISIS burned alive a Jordanian soldier in a cage and then posted this video online. "Anyone can make a mistake," said one of the women quoted in this article. That wasn't a mistake: that was evil. Any woman who voluntarily went to join ISIS needs to live out the rest of her life sitting in that camp thinking about what being in that cage, understanding what was about to happen to him, and then burning alive must have felt like to that Jordanian pilot. A lifetime of thinking of that is not too long for such people.
136
I totally agree with you.
11
Operative word here is "voluntarily".
Yes, there are probably some who went voluntarily, but I believe the vast majority had no say in going and are victims themselves.
1
I guess we are going to let all of them in the country as well?
9
Chris, yes, and they will not be separated from their children, unless they are arrested which is what should happen. They should not be allowed to return to the Western country that welcomed them.
4
If history is any indication I suspect some will call for that.
5
"Of course we made mistakes, but anyone can make a mistake," said the [woman who deliberately moved abroad to join a known terrorist organization -- one that engages in human trafficking / female enslavement, no less]."
So many individuals have faced horrific consequences for far more benign "mistakes". It's not going to be easy finding a sympathetic audience with such reasoning.
81
These women should not be taken back by Western countries. Since they were ISIS they should be sent to Saudi Arabia where they will feel at home.
30
We do not need ISIS or ‘former ISIS members’ here in the US or anywhere in the West. They can stay where they are. If they are alllowed back for some insane reason, they must face criminal charges and be imprisoned. Yes, they will be separated from their children.
94
Let them stay there under guard forever.
15
Hi James. The capacity to devote time and money to these little children because they are human beings is so totally lacking in some people that we must wonder about them.
The churches once did what must be done for the poor crippled, and friendless. And we are just learning how frequently they abused their trust.
In our heads it may be easier to let some CIA trainee flying a drone 12000 miles away from the scene vaporize everybody.
This is not how people treat people.
3
“Don’t we deserve, what do you call it, redemption?” she asked.
No. You don't.
146
"Like many women in the camp, she acknowledged that she had come voluntarily, but said that life under the jihadists had been worse than she expected and that once there it was impossible to flee." The same could be said for many of the men who became ISIS fighters. Are they exempt from blame too because the situation was worse than they expected?
53
Allow them into the US, get the Moms on media to blast the evils of Islamic fundamentalism.
2
Yeah, no. Check out the ISIS gang sign one of the women is making with her forefinger. She's a jihadi, raising lil jihadis. Jail for life, that is the only solution for a hardened criminal.
7
Only if the "moms" move to your city.
At the close of WW2, former Nazi military who were still having some belief in Nazi philosophy OR we considered a potential threat to the new nation, underwent a program of 'de-Nazification' .
One can only wonder why the local governments do not approach this situation in the same manner. By refusing to help their own people, they continue to demonstrate a tribalism that never provides a lasting peace.
17
This is a tragic situation. The question is how justice is to be administered. And at that, the cases seem to vary considerably. Certainly the children cannot be held to account. Whatever the answer, being merciful has to be, in my view, the contextual part of it. And that for the sake of civility.
8
We have no way of knowing whether the children are radicalized. It is too risky to allow them into any country outside of Syria. As for mercy, it is a two-way street. Do you think any ISIS fighter would show you an ounce of mercy?
2
“We made a mistake, but everyone in the world makes mistakes,” she said. “How long can we pay the price for a mistake? For our whole lives?”
Yes. We all pay for mistakes for our whole lives. An impulsive marriage. An unprotected sex act. A moments inattention on a motorcycle. A squeeze of a trigger. Time to grow up. You are not special, your beliefs are not special, your life is not special. Yours left a lot of people paying WITH their lives just for being in the way of YOUR project. Be grateful for every breath while your intended victims hold the hand of justice.
403
Uh, you don't actually have to pay for unprotected sex for the rest of your life. Or at least you shouldn't.
2
Perfectly stated.
3
What about their children? They had no role in their parents’ mistake. Same issue for women forced by husbands and fathers to migrate.
Women should be treated equally to men even when it comes to punishment. Don't know what Europe will do, but these women should never be allowed back in the U.S. Some mistakes have life and death consequences and no these women don't deserve a second chance, once you cross some lines you can never cross back.
172
Its tough to gin up any sympathy for this crowd, and its not a stretch to assume that many of these women who are now begging for sympathy, were complicit in these atrocities.
One thing is for sure, they should never be allowed to set foot in any western democratic country.
181
Dua Mohammed, you are 44 years old according to this article. By this point in your life there is no doubt that you should already know that every decision you have ever made and everything that you have ever done have had life-long lasting effects upon your life and the lives of people near to you. If you managed to live 44 years without realizing this great singular truth then I seriously doubt you are capable of raising children effectively. The answer to your question is indeed nested in the questions '...we pay the price for a mistake for our whole lives.' While you may work your way to a better life for yourself and the people you've hurt by making the decisions you made is possible it will take a lot more effort than whining about how unfair life is to you.
As for the rest, they should all be returned to their countries of origins to be dealt with by the authorities there as directed by the laws of those lands. Being a Female is not a 'Get out of Jail Free' card. You determined your fate when you gave up your human rights in order to follow a religion to its fanatical worst behavior. Nevertheless, it is the decision you made and that decision in no way exonerates you from what you allowed be done to other humans in the name of that zeal, including your blameless children. Apparently, even the religion you professed for following won't hold you blameless or readily forgive you and restore you to grace for what you have done.
97
And thus it is in the world of men.
Women and children pay a great price for the misadventures of boys and men. It has always been so.
Will no country step up and assist?
22
Are all bad choices those of boys and men? Are women merely pets on a leash who must comply? This idea that women are nothing but brainless, passive victims whenever circumstances turn out poorly really has to end. These women acknowledge here that they made this choice. They initially wanted to be part of ISIS. It turned out poorly. They lost because hate, in time, loses. Stop blaming men (and boys?) for the fact that these adult women chose to join a cult based on hate and violence. They are not toddlers. They chose.
11
Step up and assist how? By building a time machine and allowing people who made the decision to engage in atrocities to go back in time and make better decisions?
1
Women are not children. We are not the Saudis who think grown women need guardians. These women choose who they are and can stay where they are.
5
They need to be educated and taught skills so they have a choice and can make decisions about their own future.
13
This is a perfect case for compulsory secular education across the board in Europe and the Americas. Yes, these women made mistakes, yes they should be forgiven, yes they should be repatriated if they have committed no crimes. But if their religion-crazed husbands and fathers had allowed them to be educated, to have access to the tools of reason rather than slavish obedience to a holy book, they could have resisted. If they hadn't lived in insular communities that preach jihad and scorn for the very societies they live in, then young girls wouldn't lap up all the promises of ISIS and run to Syria for a wedding in so-called Heaven.
45
... any book that teaches slavish obedience to THINGS THAT DON'T EXIST!!!!!
2
Nope. I have firsthand knowledge of a young man who was raised in a horribly racist family. He left at age 16 and never looked back. He knew it was wrong.
Yes, SOME of these women MAY have been "brainwashed." But they still knew what is right and what is wrong. Any human being knows that it is wrong to rape a woman. Any human being knows it is wrong to lock a man in a cage and set him on fire.
And any western woman who travels thousands of miles to join and marry a gang of murdering maniacs knows full well what she was doing.
3
Do you really think that secular education is going to make any difference? Many Muslims moving to Europe, Canada and the US as refugees and asylum seekers are already radicalized. Their children are radicalized as well as children learn values from parents and reinforced by the web. Words expressing regret and sorrow mean nothing after carrying out or assisting in mass beheadings, rapes and imprisonment. I wonder what would have happened to any supporter in the west if they had encountered these same women under ISIS rule in Syria.
2
I find it deeply troubling that this story has not received a single comment- at least not any posted at this writing. Most of these women and, certainly, all of their children, need a very basic humane response from their home countries. Anyone can *easily* imagine many women, especially Moslem ones, being ordered by their husbands into Isis zones. Or believing they would be doing something of value- not entering into an evil. And certainly our judicial systems could try the adults, if crimes are suspected.
The question for their home countries, and I specifically mean Western nations, who hold the ideals of mercy and justice, is, "Who have *we* become if we leave them in this state"?
13
Do you want these people coming back and being your neighbor? I certainly do not and the majority of people don't either.
41
The Kurds allowed Arab women to be interviewed but not Western women because of their concern that it would make their return more difficult. And rightly so. They can stay where they are.
127
Any of the women who chose to join, can stay there. You make a choice, you live with the consequences. It's not like anyone was led to believe ISIS was some humanitarian organization or that the Middle East is a new Disneyland.
34
No, they "don't deserve redemption". I love the comment "everyone makes mistakes" as if going to Syria and joining ISIS is equal to forgetting to buy milk.
361
In the second photo featured in this article the veiled woman to the left is holding up her index finger–a signal used by ISIS supporters. Perhaps one could respond that raising one's index finger is an act of prayer, that, would, however, be the right index finger. Even if she is just one of many, taking a photo-op as a opportunity for propaganda in an article highlighting her plight is unlikely to help the situation.
166
and for those who want to know more:
https://www.pri.org/stories/2014-09-04/isis-has-new-hand-sign-and-it-mea...
9
Thank you for mentioning this as I had no idea, but it is clear in this photograph where this woman’s loyalty lies.
Here’s an article I found about this gesture in Foreign Affairs:
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/middle-east/2014-09-03/isis-send...
18
They are not Western women. Just because they were living in the U.S. and Europe. That is the whole point: never assimilated. Stop calling them Western women.
232
Where do you see that they were not originally Western? Assimilation usually refers to someone from another place coming to fit in - so to assimilate, you have to come from somewhere else. I didn't see anything here saying that these women were not originally from the Western countries they now call home.
In any event, isn't joining ISIS treason? We are at war with them.
The problem is the children - and that this situation will not go on forever. These women either need to be treated as criminals and imprisoned (and their children taken away and raised by someone else), or they need to be rehabilitated and released. Otherwise, this camp will become a breeding ground for even more virulent terrorists.
50
Of course they are. They are from the US and Europe, which makes them American and European. Europe (and the US) and the EMENA region have such a deep symbiotic and historical relationship that it is meaningless to speak of one without the other, and there is more crossover between both cherished values and extreme violence than people readily admit.
The violence that ISIS represents is as much a product of Western colonialism, Western philosophy, and Western technology as it is of some foreign place called 'the Middle East'. I am not saying that to excuse IS or their supporters, but I am saying that an ahistorical failure to understand exactly how inextricably intermingled the 'West' and the middle East are has led to disaster for everyone again and again.
What do you call someone born and bred in the west who joins ISIS?
1
Last year i read a interview of few yazadi women held as sex slaves bu isis and they told many horrific stories. In that interview they clearly m,mentioned the wives of ISIS fighters uses to torture them and treat them like animals. also how these women helped their husbands to rape the ISIS women. Like their husbands they are no less criminals. But kids are innocent so they must be taken and given in adoption or taken by their respective countries to take care by Govt and regarding women handover them to Iran they knew how to take care of these jihadies wives
121
I agree. It's urgent that something be done with the children before a new generation-uneducated and ripe for radicalization-grows up in those camps.
8
We don't know if the children are radicalized. It is too risky to allow them to leave Syria.
These women are similar to plight of the wives of Nazi's or the true believers who were left after WWII.
I saw a documentary last year on public television about 1 to 5 years directly after WWII, when ethnic German's and their families were trapped in areas they forcibly colonized and it wasn't pretty what happened to many of them. They showed entire families being run over by vehicles as they walked along the roadside, being lynched, shot, or put in prisons and starved to death by the formerly oppressed people they so cruelly abused and terrorized. Estimates brought the number of deaths of ethnic German's after WWII deaths as high as 200,000.
In the case of these women, who say they 'made a mistake' or 'they had no choice' the world looks at them and says 'who wants to live next door to ISIS sympathizer?' Most of these women say it was a 'mistake' and take no blame, but many, including me, have doubts that these women and their children won't continue to believe in fundamentalist Islam and commit acts of terror (or inspire their children to do so) as the years go by. As for the European ISIS wives, they rejected Western values of equality, secularism, and the rule of law, and I don't see them doing in a 180 in their belief system.
226
Well, if you saw it on TV, no reference, it must be true.
If 200,000 German's died after WWII I have a feeling it would be a real event, not a TV made up story.
Never heard of it. Total Baloney.
8
Not total baloney. My father saw some of that in Europe during and after WWII. As a GI who had been through a couple of years of hell fighting their truly evil ideology, he wasn't able to muster up a lot of sympathy.
9
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944–50)
These women are the modern equivalent of Nazi war criminals. Why on earth should any Western nation consider having them return? They made their choice, just like a common murderer in America makes his or her choice to take a life. For this they deserve no sympathy and no forgiveness. To read that some still harbor ISIS’ ideology, even now, makes it even more disturbing.
183
No they aren't, they are the equivalent of the wives of Nazi war criminals. There is a difference, which is at the heart of what this article is about. The people in this article are absolutely supporters of, and complicit in, a regimes of evil war criminals. But most have not themselves committed any crimes. Some were apparently forced to move to Syria, others may not have known what IS is, and most probably did and should be judged for that. But nuances are important, because actually understanding who these women and children are, and what they have and haven't done, is literally a life-or-death difference for them.
55
In the United States - lending material support to terrorists (under the Patriot Act) is a criminal offense. Material support here is very broad category. Also, it is not only providing but also concealing “the nature, location, source, or ownership” of such support. For the many young women from the U.S. and Europe who spent money to travel to be part of ISIS and took more funds with them, and are probably hiding the nature of their involvement - it is hard to imagine - that this would not be considered material support and therefore they are criminals.
1
Here is a link which describes better how the U.S. views material support to terrorists and it is probably different from Europe. As the article mentions "While marrying a militant fighter wouldn’t be illegal in itself, the actions she would carry out as part of that relationship would all but certainly fall afoul of anti-terrorism statutes." Prosecutors can also go after a prospective jihadis on conspiracy charges. Just planning to travel to ISIS territory will get you thrown in Jail.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/14/jihadi_love_does_us_law_prohibit_ma...
Yeah, that’s the way it works. You pay for your mistakes for the rest of your life.
220
This seems like an intricate legal limbo. It appears, though, that many of these women and children will remain in limbo for a while. It's hard to be the wife or child of someone (such as an ISIS member) who much of the world hates. It doesn't seem as though all of the women follow the ISIS ideology, but it's probably hard to identify which women do and which don't. I feel most for the children, who had no choice in the matter.
The world, and history, often forget the wives and children of the groups we battle against. This is yet another example of how no matter how clear-cut you'd want an issue to be, there will always be additional layers and intricacies that you couldn't originally anticipate. This camp in Syria is one such example of an unintended consequence of warring ideologies.
41
Every country that has citizens running off to join terrorists has an interest in bringing them home and peosecuting them to the fullest extent of the law, as a deterrent. Do it publicly. Do it loudly.
And let’s not here about not having choices. Especially those from western nations were entirely free to tell their jahadi husbands, “You’re on your own.”
And if they brought children into this dangerous situation, they should be charged with endangering those children and have them removed from their care. The children certainly should not be incarcerated with a criminal parent — the sins of the mother are not the sins of the child.
And “I made a mistake” is a poor defense in a criminal proceeding. Every criminal recognizes they made a mistake after they realize the consequences for their conduct.
321
Every criminal recognizes he or she made a mistake 'after got caught' ???
1
Having gotten to know devout Muslim women, (whom I like a great deal, but disagree with on many matters of faith) I would say that it is difficult for us in the West to fully comprehend the insular nature and the power of that devotion. We are all constructed, in part, by our community. Our ability to extend understanding and mercy, and if necessary lawful criminal proceedings, is essential to maintaining our own humanity. To allow these children to remain in such woeful circumstances is to plant the seeds of the next generation’s crisis.
156
Are you equally forgiving of the women who voted for Trump and continue to support him, despite his misogyny? Despite his violent separation of families at the border? No? Those women Trump supporters live insular lives also. Those women Trump supporters are raising children to hate also. Look, I'm on the Left. I'm not beating a Right wing criminal justice drum. I understand ecological models of social construction also. But at what point does individual responsibility become an expectation for people of any gender, ethnicity, or religion, even under very difficult circumstances? These women had a choice. They made the wrong one. It was a choice based on hate and glorification of violence. That has consequences now that their side has lost.
8
Those seeds have already been planted. We justifiably killed their murdering and raping husbands and dads. Revenge is already what they are living for.
If you want to open your home to them you can do so. They are not welcome where I live.
5
As I wrote before, take the young children who can still be reeducated and find homes for them. One cannot leave them with their mothers!
Seriously, we are sending child protection services after mothers who let their children play unattended in their own front yard and threaten them with loss of custody for that heinous crime here in our own US of A.
We cannot possibly apply a different standard when it comes to separating children from their treasonous and murderous mothers, can we.
3
I agree with other commenters that these are adult women who should take responsibility for their actions, and for their mistakes.
However, what complicates things for me is that these women come from cultures that discourage, or actively forbid, women from exercising any agency. Are we then surprised that they seem incapable of doing so?
79
The article says over 2000 women and children - but that doesn't tell us how many women are there. Homeland Security puts the number of foreign born ISIS wives at around 560. If you are able to plan a trip that gets you from the UK or France to ISIS controlled territory - I would say that is an example of exercising agency.
5
Just following orders.
That can be their defense.
2
Oh, no -- that is not what Muslim women tell me. They tell me that Islam inspires and empowers them.
5
"Everyone in the world makes mistakes" is very lame excuse after the murders, rapes and crimes against humanity committed in the region and across the world by ISIS. Some mistakes are so huge, they do negate a second chance, and do ruin lives. There are far more deserving refugees, into the millions, who were dispossessed, wounded, tortured, impoverished, by ISIS. They deserve priority.
306
Including the Yazidi women forced to serve as sex slaves and servants in ISIS households.
31
The dumbest mistake in my life cannot remotely be compared to taking a child into a terrorist war. So I don't have much sympathy for these women, though I do believe they deserve legal process. (Presuming they are citizens of a nation that has any such thing.)
The children should be brought home. In each case there is the question of what grounds there are for prosecuting the women in question. If convicted and sentenced to prison, then obviously their children must be raised by others.
But just consider child-endangerment -- if they voluntarily took a child there, this seems an open-and-shut conclusion. Lots of mothers have their parental rights terminated in the US for acts that endanger their children less egregiously than joining ISIS.
14
The Kurds are acting in a humane manner whereas many of the Times' readers are acting as judge and jury. The rule of law should apply to these women and children. They are citizens of numerous nations and each nation should take repsonibility. They should not be detained in camps. If they broke the law of their nation by joining ISIS, they should be held accountable.
105
They broke the law of humanity by joining a gang of murderers and rapists. Let them rot.
4
Let a moslem oil rich nation take them
3
A judge does not need to tell me that headings by terrorists are bad or that I should shun those who aided them, including their families.
2
How many of the children there were forced by their parents, or by other ISIS members, to carry out brutalities, including beheadings? There was nothing "fair" or civilized about destroying their own children this way, but on the other hand, it is very difficult to believe or hope those children can ever be made whole.
As for the mothers/women. I want to be able to sympathize with them. America bears a great deal of responsibility for creating the conditions that gave rise to ISIS.
Despite our own moral culpability, however, it would seem that a majority of these women chose ISIS and chose to reject their home countries. That they now dismiss those decisions as "mistakes," and assert that they are owed forgiveness, suggests yet another reason for keeping them where they chose to be.
59
But what about the children? Should they be condemned to live in a desert camp for their entire lives with no education, no jobs, no prospects? Sounds like a good recipe for another generation of extremists. Of course there is always mercy, which seems to be in short supply everywhere these days.
3
The Kurds were supported by the US, and fought against ISIS: it isn't clear to me why readers think the entire problem is theirs. Neither is it all ours.
Those who ARE us citizens should be returned, to countries of origins, including the US. subject to legal repercussions; like it our not they are "ours." I think it would probably be so under international law.
The oil rich Arab states who funded a lot of the underlying wars and the religious groups who instigate continued war on the basis of religion should be pressured by the rest of the world to step in with some form of humanitarian aid -- in order to prevent raising a new generation of furious people seeking revenge. Which is going to happen anyway in the Middle east, which has been at this form of war and retribution, in one form or another since 600 or so CE.
It is a problem that is caused by war and it isn;t a new one.
45
I think that many of the countries of origin may claim that they effectively renounced their citizenship since ISIS claimed itself to be a sovereign state and actually ruled territory as a governing body.
21
The overall issue is difficult: Some went voluntarily, others not. Some were wives in a culture where they had no choice, others willingly went to become wives of Jihadists to help ISIS recruit more fighters. Some may have committed crimes but there's probably no evidence, others very likely have not.
One can understand that it would be difficult to sort the ISIS-friendly ones from those who are just victims, and that even their own countries could feel it's not their problem to solve.
But one thing that would clearly help us defeat ISIS and discourage other Jihadists, would be the documentation and broadcasting of their stories about what they saw, what happened to them, and what they've come to know first-hand about ISIS. ISIS seems to have done a very good job of convincing tens of thousands that their cause was just and their Caliphate would be a heaven, or lead to heaven. Hundreds of stories about how bad it was would be very useful in countering that message.
The women who don't believe in ISIS might also be able to show, by their willingness to speak out about the atrocities and their own mistreatment, that they are not sympathetic to ISIS or perhaps even hate it. And that might help their countries feel more comfortable about taking those women and their children back.
148
I agree. Documenting the crimes is critical. we should work with all our allies to spend the time money and resources to document what happened. These women are key.
9
I'm on board with documenting crimes, but these comments also assume that ISIS recruits had no idea of what ISIS was doing until they arrived in the Caliphate. I'm not convinced this is the case. According to media reports at the time, ISIS recruited in Europe and elsewhere in part by repeatedly posting graphic footage of beheadings and other extreme violence. The idea -- which appears to have worked -- was to inspire people to join. That said -- many of these women had no choice but to follow their husbands, and the children are uttering blameless. These families should be repatriated...
2
My thoughts exactly - these women and children, at least the ones that are willing, are the best educational tool we have available to (hopefully) stop the madness for good!
2
What happened to the golden rule? The United States is capable of creating a safe base for refugees. We are a country of immigrants. Look at what happens when we leave behind oppressive and violent forces and are offered the freedom to thrive. We are not done. We have room for more. We have the resources to support these folks. Less immigrants doesn't reverse the accumulation of wealth - rejecting immigrants is being used as a means to increase the imbalance of wealth. The first Europeans who settled here focused on the redistribution of wealth to ensure survival - same rules apply today. It isn't working what's going on now - the consolidation of companies is eliminating great jobs, community involvement and the wisdom that comes from meaningful participation of individuals in commerce. I got to be a grocer for my career. What a fun job. I was able to be a leader in many parts of my community. Then, Wholefoods moved to town and my partners freaked and sold the place to people with money but not wisdom. They eliminated jobs, including putting a popular employee who was once homeless back out on the streets and laying off managers who'd been working for ten plus years. Meanwhile, they fail at expansion plans now - they don't realize the talent to grow the company is diffused by their distance. ugh. Break up monopolies and let the refugees in!
13
"What happened to the golden rule?"
You should be grateful that the captors of these ISIS women aren't doing to them as ISIS did to others.
11
I sympathize with and share your politics and perspectives, Chris, for the most part, regarding refugees and immigrants generally. They are a boon for our country, as well as being a moral obligation, and they are both needed and welcome. But these women?? Are you kidding me?? These women were complicit in the most horrific crimes against humanity you can imagine - some of which took place in their very homes. In the case of Arab women, I'm sure many lacked the power to defy their husbands, but the Western women made a choice and went to significant effort to be a part of the horror that was ISIS. They cannot credibly claim ignorance as to what ISIS was if they found it interesting enough to travel there. It's our duty to the Kurds to relieve them of the burden of detaining those who are US citizens. But those women should face the most serious criminal prosecution we can through at them upon their return, and such miserable excuses for humanity should never ever be compared to the innocent people seeking refuge here. To make such careless comparisons hurts the cause of humanity and liberalism.
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Did you read the article? These are not 'refugees.' They are ISIS members- people who willingly traveled from their homes to ISIS held territory to torture and murder people.
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The NYT article on July 2nd about the Danish government planning to make it mandatory for the children of muslim immigrants to attend classes on Danish culture after school is a desperate attempt to stop this kind of thing. Indoctrination and radicalisation are too easy for the young. Look at the UK, with 2,000 being monitored, and a further 20,000 on the police watch lists. Hopefully, Denmark will avoid this. And how much better that a young girl knows that she does not have to be shipped to the home country to marry her stranger first cousin,for example.
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Assimilation IS NOT indoctrination. What france failed to do with its' minority immigrants was " assimilate" them into french culture. Instead they just ignored them and left them to cope , possessing none of the required skills or cultural knowledge to succeed. In dearborn Michigan the Muslim and Christian Iraqi community have maintained a visible ethnic presence while integrating extremely well into the larger society.
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WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE KURDISH PESHMERGA, Almost no women participate in political, leave alone military activities in the Muslim countries. So to the widowed women and orphaned children for their dead fathers' mistakes is understandable, but profoundly flawed. I don't see any solution on the horizon. Taking a long view of the situation, the longer innocent women and children are abused and deprived of their rights for the dead husband or father's role in ISIS, the more likely it is that they will become despondent, hopeless and outraged. Some of them will probably become radicalized because of the abuse and neglect they are suffering now.
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No doubt. But those who were radicalized when they first went to the Islamic State will know from their own experience what such radicalization will get them.
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Is it your supposition that the abuse and neglect now are worse than previously?
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We have experienced at least one radicalized Muslim woman who got through the background checks somehow and created havoc in a municipal office in California. Remember that?
I doubt these women would pass our immigration scrutiny considering where they are now and how they got there.
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