Let's reason:
You are unhappy with your job, you quit.
If you can't afford to quit, you do your job and plan an exit route.
You don't commit brutal acts.
18
What a shame that New York doesn't have the death penalty and now taxpayers will be stuck paying room and board for this disgusting waste-of-space for the next 40 years.
16
You cannot pay someone to love your children. If you are a person of little means and no family help in caring for your children, and if you must work outside the home during your children's earliest years, as many of us must do, you are very much at the mercy of whomever you can find.
But if you are a person of means, as the Krims are, why do you economize? Does it take a guaranteed and bonded fortuneteller to tell you that someone like Ms. Ortega was not a terribly good choice to watch your vulnerable, very young, undoubtedly very active children behaving as such kids do at those ages?
Even with the bonds of parenthood, many people cannot handle the stress of dealing with children. The papers are full of what happens then. A person unrelated to you is ever so much less biologically and psychologically inclined to show the extra patience and forbearance necessary during stressful times.
13
This case calls out for two remedies: a universal, quality day-care system and universal, quality .health care system with mental health at true parity.
Both require massive allocations (or should I say re-allocations, for surely lots of our tax money is mis-allocated now) and training many people for the kind of work we're suited for and which no robot can do well -- caring for other humans.
My heart goes out to both the nanny and the parents. Surely, it sounds as if this were a psychotic break and an awful fate for all. Are we up to changing anything?
14
Several red flags here--and with many "nannies" (which implies training that these babysitters don't have).
Almost all are uneducated women from poor countries and unstable, broken homes who as adults are not in stable, long-term marriages. They usually are members of their home country's most impoverished class.
To expect anyone raised in an impoverished setting without education, amidst social, emotional and political dysfunction, and without any true instinctive attachment to another woman's children to be emotionally and psychologically stable with those children is simply foolish. Educated, stable, true nannies are very, very expensive.
I stayed home with my children for 10 years--not because I was rich, but because I wasn't rich enough to afford the only care that can be even remotely trusted. People need to get real about the risks they're taking with their innocent, helpless children.
29
This woman was obviously psychotic. What bothers me is how it's possible to be around someeone who has severe mental illness and not realize that something about them is "off". The family took her on vacation with them, and the mother was a stay-at-home mom who wanted extra help. Were there no clues that this woman was unstable? I am more curious about this than I am about the fact that the nanny was mentally ill.
13
Let's put it this way: How likely is it that an educated, stable woman from a stable family in a middle class tier of a not-impoverished foreign country with a stable marriage of her own is going to want to be a combo babysitter/cleaner?
The real surprise is that so many of these women hold it together for as long as they do without incident. Although many don't...the last time I was in NYC and walking through Central Park (2 years ago), I watched a "nanny" viciously berate a young child in broad daylight.
8
Obviously this woman must pay for her crime, whether through treatment or incarceration. But to all the childcare outsourcers out there: you get what you pay and vote for. If you can't afford the best childcare with either family or highly vetted, well paid childcare professionals, then spend less on your lifestyle or don't have children. If you vote for pro-birth, anti-family and community policy Republicans because you want tax cuts at all costs, then don't complain when you find yourself with limited childcare options.
Europe is far more pro-family values than the GOP ever will be because it long ago realized it takes a village, with all pitching in with labor and revenue, to raise a society of healthy, well-adjusted children and it has the public policies in place to make that happen.
I chose to not have children because I knew America is a tough-luck-you're-on-your-own place when it comes to children. Even so, I'm happy to pay higher taxes so that society's future, its children, are supported in becoming the best citizens possible.
17
How dare you. This isn't about the GOP or about what the family paid this woman. Marina Krim was a hands-on mother whose extended family was all on the West coast. She had three children under the age of 6, if you've ever tried to navigate NYC with even one toddler in tow you would understand why she needed an extra pair of hands to help her.
20
The more unexplainable something is, the more people will swing for the fences outpourings of rage, revenge grief and all the emotions which we feel that as civilized are unseemly and cause some of us shame. At some point, these emotions exhaust us. And that is when we are prepared to mourn. For the Krims, their kids, and perhaps even for a woman who was not evil as much as forsaken by god.
5
My heart goes out to the Krim family. Clearly the nanny had a psychotic break. I'm worried about her son, who knew the children and was horrified. The horror of her crime is a terrible burden to him and he was also an innocent child. I hope he too is able to heal and to live past this terrible tragedy. I hope all involved can heal as much as is possible.
19
Lots of people have ideas: They should have paid her more. They shouldn't have hired a brown person. They should've put the kids in daycare.
Look, my kids are safely tucked away in college now, but I'm a veteran of the childcare struggle; and though I don't know the Krims, I have a pretty good idea of who they are. You have your kid, and for whatever reason (gasp! Maybe you have a job!) you need to find childcare. You agonize over putting her in daycare, but after months of research and wait lists you find a good match. You try to ignore the horror stories everyone tells you about day care. But then you have another kid and the cost doubles, or you get tired of getting sick, or your work hours are inconsistent, or your kid has to stay home with colds all the time. So you decide to hire a nanny. You spend months looking until you finally interview someone who seems like a good match. You hire the service to do the background check. You pay what your budget will allow, but probably more than you can really afford because it's your kids. You try to keep the nanny happy.
This is what people do, and the vast, vast majority of the time it all works out. Part of the reason this case is getting so much attention, in addition to being horrific, is because it is so extraordinary. Many more children are beaten, raped, or killed by family members, or teachers, or coaches, than by paid childcare workers. So spare this family your harsh judgements. They did nothing wrong.
32
"they did NOTHING wrong?" .... Oh, I think you protest too much ....
5
Kids in the US die all the time at the hands of caregivers whether as a result of carelessness or violence. I have left my own children in the hands of nannies I barely knew. Other parents recommend these nannies, and as a parent, that's all I had to go on. My kids were not with these people full-time, and they didn't clean my house. It was just for a few hours a few hours per week. I didn't feel comfortable leaving my kids with them longer than that. My vast preference would have been full-time, high quality, affordable child care delivered by trained, licensed and regularly inspected providers so I could go back to work feeling my kids were in good care. Just one of those things that we can't have in the US.
16
These days it seems people spend more time checking out the references/ background of their dog walker than the individuals watching their children. And often , they are paid the same amount. Crazy.
11
Anyone claiming "insanity" seems to me to be "sane" enough to make that claim, especially if a lawyer forced them into making that claim, and should be escorted directly to life in prison w/o parole, no options, no exceptions, just rot until you die. Along with the lawyer.
Forgive me, I was insane to write that.
5
This horrific murder happened a few months before our first child was born. It gave me nightmares and, frankly, changed my mind about how we would move forward with our own child care options.
My heart breaks all over again for Lucia and Leo and the entire Krim family. Nothing justifies this. No amount of perceived unfair treatment could ever warrant such a heinous and depraved act.
I don't want to know why Ortega did it. I want her to go away forever.
35
nannies have been known to just leave the children run out & not return. sometimes they demand the pay later. sometimes wrong w/this picture. what is all this smoozing w/the family in the DR? couldnt the krims ask the nannies family if thier daughter was happy? i have a maid in mexico, she does express her self. if she wants a raise, she tells me. if this relationship w/the krims was so wonderful then all the nannies excuses are invalid.
4
This very sad story brought to mind a time when my co-parent Eloise, apologized for not having the time to mop the kitchen floor because my son was fretful and required more time. My response was ,you are here because He is here. If he wasn’t here, you would not be needed every day. His needs take precedence over everything else.
5
My thoughts are with the couple Marina and Kevin. I cannot even fathom the pain they have gone and continue to go through.
16
I don't understand the "overworked" part. Most stay-at-home mothers do more than 5 hours a week of housework, also cook and watch the children 24/7...all for no pay. No time off for them. Yet most of them refrain from butchering their kids.
12
"Yet most of them refrain from butchering their kids."
So do most nannies, yes?
13
Wow, you really don't understand the difference between the evolutionary programming of a parent toward its genetic offspring versus that of a totally unrelated poorly paid and uneducated caregiver? Really?
8
When you hire an uneducated person with an unstable living arrangement to care daily for your two very young children in an affluent setting, there's going to be resentment under the most optimum conditions.
Mrs. Krim didn't display a heck of a lot of prudence before this dreadful crime. The photos she posted of her children before their murders showed a certain lack of sensible boundaries or farsightedness regarding the ubiquitousness of images on social media.
She may have seen herself as generous, but I've known those Upper West Side types and they are remarkably clueless about the lives and stresses of others.
This was a dynamic bound to cause problems, even if everyone involved was entirely emotionally healthy.
People economize on the caregiving of their children, rather than on their holidays or gym memberships, and sometimes that works out very badly.
18
Marina Krim did nothing wrong. She had every right to enjoy her children and keep a blog. The villain here is the evil nanny, or are you too caught up in your social justice warrior complex to tell right from wrong?
15
In most states the capacity necessary to participate in trial or to be considered legally sane is a very low bar to pass. You can have serious mental illness and psychosis and be considered legally sane in most states, that is a fall out to the change of many state laws after the Reagan shooting.
You can know right from wrong, i.e. the reason she tried to kill herself in the end, and still be suffering from a serious mental break.
6
I wonder if the attorney's working to get this woman acquitted have children, that they would trust to her care?
11
That is irrelevant. If they cannot separate their obligation to provide zealous representation from their personal circumstances, not only should they withdraw but they should also question their underlying commitment to our system of justice.
24
This is the kind of reasoning to expect from someone from NJ with Money Rules as a moniker.
Your best bet iis vet everyone who you hire to service you at home: termite inspector, washer repair, gardeners, trash collector etc. Ask them to fill out your questionnaire about every argument, issue they ever had. Make sure there's a question that asks if they ever raised their voice to anyone ever. And while it's illegal, also ask them if they have ever received a traffic summons, misdemeanor accusation, or heaven forbid, a felony.
And after you're done, get ready to do your own dirty work. Forever.
7
An interesting question is whether there are a class of crimes so heinous that insanity defense becomes inapplicable. Are there certain crimes that we, as a society, can simply decree to be immune from a review of the perpetrator's state of mind?
If you shoot a automatic weapon into a crowd or have a plane flown into a building or butcher two children under your care, maybe as a society we can just say we really don't care if you were cognizant of the magnitude of your crime.
28
Was her motive "simple anger at being asked to work too hard"? as prosecutors have asserted?
Or you can look at it this way:
If she's sane, she then leaves a note saying she'll return the next day to get what she's owed pay-wise.
If not, you murder their children after the parents leave and walk out.
In the latter case, however, it is God, then, who is the murderer, not an indisputable insane baby-sitter who ought to have been incarcerated for the remainder of her natural life so as to never again be free to commit such a horrific crime.
What's your plea, God?
2
"That is often a tricky judgment for jurors to make because a defendant could have a serious mental illness yet still have a moral understanding of what she was doing."
Mens Rea is a throwback to the days of Alienists. The standard has been challenged for decades one reason: it is virtually impossible for an insane person to know the difference between right or wrong. Any prosecutor or judge that argues otherwise should have their own head examined.
6
I suspect manipulation by this murderer. This is a middle age woman whose life is going nowhere, who is yoked to taking care of the children of a much younger, prosperous and affluent family. According to the reports in the NYT, her own children are not doing so well. She is angry, bitter, and resentful and she was going to inflict the maximum pain on this family that's living a life that she or her children could never aspire to. Insanity is a crafty defense for her evil act.
27
Why do people of means use the cheapest labor they can find for the care of what ought to be their most precious treasure?
49
Oh, come on! I don't know how much Ms. Ortega was paid, but would you feel better if the perpetrator of this crime was an expensive and sophisticated caregiver?
9
Why the assumption that she was the cheapest labor they could find?
16
Well put! I’ve always wondered that myself : skimping on the most important people in your life. Where’s one’s priorities?
8
why not ask the employer to change the cleaning products? seriously, if the employers had a close relationship w/the family then why didnt the nannt talk about her grievences? i will tell you why: the woman was already nuts. that pluse cultural issues, communication issues complicate things. ms krim did not work. rather then hiring a 3rs world UNvetted immigrant/migrants why not stay home home more often w/the children? forget dance lessons. let them learn swimming later in camp. hire a cleaning & shopping helper. i dont have children but i would NOT let anyone take care of them except my family. my mother worked, grandma babysat. we had a day worker clean sometimes.
13
An unusual aspect of New York City is that a lot of us moved here from somewhere else, so our families aren’t around to help out. I would love it if my daughter’s grandma could babysit, but she lives in another country. I don’t know anyone who hires a nanny so they can spend more time gadding about town. We hire nannies so we can do our jobs and continue to cover our mortgages.
9
I don't know, I've always been very uneasy with the idea of a personal nanny. I find it dangerous to leave small children with any lone person, even if you can afford it. I am very lucky that there was a wonderful daycare down the road from me where my child was taken care of by multiple staff. I guess you could say there was lots of checks and balances and I was not at the mercy of one person's well being.
22
I meant to also mention that unlike nannies, daycare staff have to be trained and licensed in a regulated facility. When you hire a nanny, you are your one person business doing the hiring.
14
I’m 37 and married. I’ve worked my whole adult life. I have a two year old. I’ve been SO stressed out and exhausted these past couple of years. It’s extremely hard to be a parent in this country where the government offers hardly any support. Of course murder of children is the worst kind of horror, but I can understand WHY people have psychotic breakdowns. If our government offered more support for people of all economic backgrounds (eg childcare, healthcare), I think there would be fewer mental health crises, which are surfacing all over the place. For example, I live in Portland and there are homeless people camped out all over the sidewalks. I’m sure many of them have seriously damaged children in the foster system.
19
This liberal does not see why government should be responsible for what is a matter of personal responsibility. Each of us is responsible for our own mental health and financial planning. Even if more government support were offered these stories would still exist and the homeless too.
4
I don't understand the distinction between not insane and insane. Is it about personal responsibility? That seems to suggest that we blame the motive rather than the action, which suggests that punishment is to correct the agency behind the motive. I believe in punishing the crime and not punishing the motive. If we punish the crime, then the distinction between sane and insane does not matter. I myself do not believe in psychology, psychiatry, or rehabilitation. I don't believe that doctors can "fix" a person who does something like this. Therefore, who cares whether she's insane or not. She should be removed from the equation of life.
What is the concept regarding agency and responsibility at the heart of the sane/insane conundrum? Let's say she's insane. Ok. So what? What matters is not WHY she murdered the children. What matters is that two children are dead, because she is in the world.
8
Whether the defense can convince the jury that she committed the murders due to mental illness won't have much of an impact on the sentencing other than whether she will spend her 25-to-life in a mental institute or a prison.
9
You cannot rationalize the senseless killing of 2 innocent children. However, the views expressed by many 'well-meaning' readers here demonstrate ignorance about mental health issues. Whether 'insanity plea' is valid is not the issue here - there is a legal standard and it looks like the Nanny's defense team was not able to convince the judges that she was legally insane at the time of the crime. However, tragedies like this can be averted if we collectively take mental health issues seriously and build support systems including proper care. Many of the mass shooters are in the same boat - once the deed is done, no amount of pontification or hand wringing will bring back the dead. These and other similar tragedies should serve as a wake up call for all of us to face the mental health crisis.
14
I still can't bear to read about this case after all these years. I live on the UWS and it was just horrific reading about this when this happened. I have just donated to the Lucia and Leo fund, in honor of the poor defenseless children whose lives were cut short. I feel like crying now just thinking about them. To the Krims, you are supported in your memory of your children.
23
These pieces always bring up the question of how can someone commit an insane crime but still be considered sane. Just because a person buys a weapon or plans the crime and occasionally seems or looks or sounds normal does not mean they are sane.
7
This won't be popular but I believe some are intrigued with the idea of being God or doing Godly acts. Not here to argue the existence of God but what is more divine than giving life? Taking it. I don't know if she was insane but we do know that she didn't want to live anymore and may have wanted take the children with her as a form of protection from the world and life she felt was so harsh to her. Again, I am not here to defend her or justify anything she did. The day this story broke out I had to hold back tears. Much like Newtown.
1
I don't have children, but if I did and had to hire someone to take care of them in any capacity, I would insist on valid references and would look into the background of any nanny I would consider hiring. I'm not saying that the Krims did not do this or were in anyway responsible for this tragedy. My sympathies and heart of course go out to them. I just think you get what you pay for and there is no shortcut for safety when it come to your precious children.
8
I'm no expert by any means, but do not believe that this woman is/was insane. Frankly, anyone that kills another cannot be of 'right mind' from common civil definition. However, she know she isn't insane - if she was, she wouldn't have tried to kill herself after the fact. May not have been out of remorse, but it certainly wasn't because she thought she was suddenly the demon she 'heard' - although that excuse didn't come up until far after the murders. She knows what she did, she should go to jail for the rest of her life. Doesn't deserve an institution for this atrocity.
24
It's interesting that even in a liberal newspaper such as the Times so little attention is given to the power dynamics of the situation. Which woman should we believe? The wealthy, articulate white housewife or the poor brown-skinned servant who literally can't speak in her own defense? Some skepticism might be a good investigative tool here.
18
She seemed to be making enough money to sublet an apartment, so it does not sound like money was the issue. Losing the apartment and moving back in with relatives was where her issues began. I think all parents should put up nanny cams in their homes. If there was any hint of negativity is would have been directed at the children a while ago, not just a sudden knee-jerk reaction. The unfortunate thing, she took it out on the most innocent. Her anger was with her live-in relatives, not the kids or their parents.
1
What skepticism? What power dynamics.?The fact remains -a family lost two dear children by the hand of their nanny. Case closed.
10
Power dynamics? I'm not sure what murdering two children has to do with power dynamics. If she were white and middle class, I can't see the reporting being any different regarding the facts of the case.
12
A sane person would give notice, not execute small children. Overwork is a strange way to explain what happened. A sane person doesn't kill people for no apparent gain. She wasn't hired to do a hit job, she had a psychotic break. She didn't even have enough presence of mind on to hide her unspeakable actions. Why is being declared insane considered a reward?
49
As a new parents who relies on a nanny I find this terrifying and totally sickening.
I am equally disgusted with comments from people wondering what her pay and hours were - as if there is some number threshold where they would start to think...what exactly? That she is absolved of murdering someone else's children?!
This woman is sick - lock her up forever. I don't need $3 million of tax payer cash in psycho-analysis to find out she's not going to be able to re-enter society. We need better funding of our healthcare and childcare in this country to avoid having people who are totally unqualified and potentially dangerous watching our children.
98
How much are your children worth to you? You say everything? Well then why not pay that much to somebody who's caring for them? Until you stop searching around for cheap "help" and are willing to pay literally top dollar for this "job," don't complain about the fact that you're consigning your children to serious risks just to save some money. Worth everything to you? I suspect not.
10
Dear Nick, I personally don't read the questions about pay/hours as necessarily saying it absolves her -- If she worked 35 hours a week then it shows how flimsy and silly the attempt at a defense is. Put another way, if her defense was seasonal effective disorder, but the article omitted the time of year -- just because people find the omission curious does not mean that they would accept the defense. Some people see this as a puzzle with a missing piece -- not that the piece changes the picture, but it's an omission.
1
Mickey D, if you think ANYONE is casually placing their child in the hands of a caretaker chosen because they were the cheapest around, you are sorely out of touch with the realities of procuring quality childcare in this country. I suspect you haven't had to do so, or you wouldn't be so judgmental.
13
Cases like this is why our bloated, inefficient legal system will never improve. Why has this been dragged out for half a decade? She should have been tried, convicted by a jury of her peers, and put to death YEARS ago. There is no reason why she should continue to live (and off taxpayers' money...) in a civilized society after slaughtering two children.
31
I hope the irony of stating someone should have been “put to death” and your desire for a “civilized society” are not lost on you.
21
DElia,
I don't see capital punishment as incompatible with civilization, The murder of children is an abomination. It defies reason and humanity. The very thought of it is intolerable to the mind. Child-murder is pure evil, and defies everything we value about civilization. That evil should be expunged from existence, in the same way the genocide should be expunged from existence. I would execute war criminals found guilty of genocide too. The abomination if pure evil is incompatible with civilization. It is the boundary between civilzation and barbarism.
2
Why if her family realized that her behavior was strange and not logical did they not inform her employers since they knew she would be alone with two innocent children!
63
Because people are narcissistic enough to turn a blind eye, unless it effects them. They were enablers IF she showed any signs of mental instability. So far we do not know if she showed any signs. I would however, interview the family she lived with to find out more.
4
What a horrible tragedy. My heart goes out to the family. I'm sure they did their due diligence in hiring this nanny, with background checks, references, etc...If it were me, I would be tortured with self-doubt: did I miss something? As a parent, it's easy to feel that everything that happens to your children is in your control or should be when, in fact, we have to let go of our children everyday in little and big ways and trust the world will do them no harm.
25
Why did it take more than five years to start the trial.
I recently read a review for a new novel with a story line very similar to this tragedy. So far I've chosen not to read it, questioning if the theme has any redeeming societal value, or is the book just another examination of violence and darkness in humanity. I wonder if fictionalizing such horrific true crime helps civilization at all . . . .
6
If you're talking about the english translation of Leila Slimani's french novel "Chanson Douce" (US title, "The Perfect Nanny"), go ahead and read it. What is striking about Slimani's novel is the ethnic role reversal, especially in light of some of the comments to this NYT article. Instead of a rich white mother hiring a dark skinned immigrant as the nanny, Slimani has the working mother be a North African immigrant hiring a white Frenchwoman as the nanny. Slimani says she named her novel's nanny Louise after reading about a British nanny who was convicted of murdering her young charges. The nanny's name in the UK case was Louise.
It would be very easy here to cynically blame the horror on some sort of ethnic power imbalance between the mother and the nanny, but the real mental problems are most likely far more complicated. There is an awful lot to think about when it comes to women, work and child care; who feels guilty and who doesn't and why. It's way more complicated than skin color and social class. Thank god that for the vast majority of us these issues don't end in the death of the children we bring into this world.
7
Having taught law now for 40 years I have thought of this case as a paradigm of the limits and faults of our legal system and of lawyering itself. It suggests that "thinking like a lawyer" is not thinking at all.
A nanny, overworked and alone, seemingly goes berserk and butchers two innocent children. Then she attempts to kill herself and barely survives. Think about it without reading more and try to decide whether she was insane or just murderously angry. Which is it?
The legal system insists it is uniquely able to answer this question. It insists that it alone is competent to identify and frame the crucial issue in this way. Of course the answer is forced into this crabbed perspective so that it becomes crucial, which it is not. Let's just say that she was simply angry. Then she kills her charges. Isn't it possible that when sane people become angry they don't kill someone? And that of course she was angry at her position but because she was insane she then murdered?
This bipolar, zero sum, compartmentalized, approach is what the legal system is proud of. It can proceed to answer this question without fear of partiality, emotion, and mistake. Except that same unexamined way of thinking mistakenly asks the wrong question. In its effort to be fair and dispassionate, it turns out justice is truly blind. To reality and the facts.
It's not whether she was angry or insane. It's whether she was angry and insane.
25
Just lock her up in prison and throw away the key. All the expensive psychiatric "treatment" is not going to fix anything, She has periods of total normalcy and other periods where she doesn't seem normal. Of course, after a murder, it is in her best interest to maintain her "insane" persona. We have already spent too much on a trial which will be between psychiatrists paid for by each side to say opposite things. A jury cannot decide. Let the judge just lock her up and stop wasting more money on a murderer.
23
If she goes to a psychiatric hospital it will not be to find a "cure" but to make sure she does not harm herself or anyone else. Also, I am sorry the cost and velocity of the trial is irksome to you but not quite enough of a reason to throw out due process.
7
A jury cannot decide? I think you are in the wrong country.
4
She is incarcerated and constantly being evaluated. Is she currently on anti-psychotic medications? If not, has her behavior been that of someone with paranoid schizophrenia. If yes, what were the symptoms that prompted treatment while incarcerated? These are factors to consider in terms of life in prison or life in a mental institution.
7
I'm No Doctor and never worked in the medical field. To me for a person man or woman to kill a 2 year old and a 6 year has to have some serious mental issues. Whether she goes to prison or a mental hospital she should Never be allowed to work amoung us again.
26
I remember the day of this horrible crime very well because I had a meeting in the area that evening. This was the same day that the arrest of the cannibal cop, Gilberto Valle was announced. At that time it seemed that Gilberto Valle was really killing and eating people and not just fantasizing about it. I found it extremely unnerving. I had no doubt that this is what set the nanny off. She was at the home that day with these children and must have been hearing it again and again on radio and TV.
3
Nice observation!! You are right, that very well could have contributed to her claiming insanity.
Gilberto Valle wrote about it, but never actually ate anyone. And given the details of what Ortega did that day, your assumptions are purely fantasy.
5
As a single mother who has hired and fired several nannies, I highly recommend hiring American born citizens. It’s the only way to get close to a decent background check. I’ve had some scary experiences with immigrants who had not disclosed their mental issues or troubles with the law in their home countries.
Childcare is no laughing matter and unfortunately, the nyc metro area is rife with incompetent and downright dangerous women who pose as loving caregivers. If only mothers could stay at home till their kids were old enough for preschool but alas this is not a country that respects mothers.
53
Unfortunately, many mothers cannot afford to stay home with their children until they're in preschool. That's why so many rely on daycares and nannies or a combination of the two that is also supplemented by family care (i.e., a healthy grandparent who lives nearby, doesn't work, and is willing to watch the kids, a rare bird these days). However, hiring American-born citizens to do childcare work doesn't automatically mean that such people will have mental health issues that they're happy to disclose in a job interview, or that they will automatically be of high moral principles simply because they're American citizens. Psychosis and reprehensible behavior is not limited to the foreign-born.
Perhaps when we make childcare and early-childhood education positions attractive to American citizens through the payment of a living wage, the availability of decent benefits, and the respect that caring for and educating young children deserves, then more American citizens will be inclined to take them. As it is, most people aren't chomping at the bit to spend 12 hours a day caring for young children only to live in borderline poverty while doing it. It would be great if this country had paid maternity/paternity leave and free or low-cost, safe, quality daycares and preschools so young families would feel supported. The Krim family's tragedy is the ultimate nightmare of every parent who has to rely on outside help for childcare, whether the caretaker is American-born or not.
20
Well my understanding is that the mom was taking one of the kids to class. And secondly, not everyone wants to stay at home with their kids....
2
Considering all the american-born lunatics that get their hands on guns these days, I’m not so sure that making this an immigrant issue is the right approach.
4
Truly obscene: FIVE YEARS have elapsed, no justice served. Society’s interests are not served by such a delay, whatever the real cause. Get on with it.
35
I'm not pinning the blame on anyone but Ortega, but I'm wondering, if her family saw signs of disturbance months and even years before the horrific event, why did they let her continue working with children? If I had a family member displaying bizarre and disturbing behavior, the first thing I would do would be to notify the family so that they could make the best decision for their children. I know that sounds unrealistic, because it would be depriving this woman of her income and livelihood, but my primary concern would be for the children. And this woman had other work experience and likely could have found a job in one of those other areas.
Also, I know that it seems easy to say from afar, but if someone in my employment were experiencing depression or some other disabling condition, I feel I would certainly see it and would decide on another caretaker. The article says that the nanny and family were very close, so maybe this is armchair quarterbacking. But I would like to think that I'd be astute enough to perceive there was something off about this person...?
This is such a horrific story and is unthinkable to anyone from Manhattan, especially the UWS, as I am. I am still heartbroken for the Krim family. RIP little angels.
11
This is a tragedy for these two children. And it highlights a serious problem in the United that most refuse to discuss. The childhood and social, cultural and educational background of people matters. It is required today to ignore that immigration is a very stressful situation which causes mental illness in many. Also people bring with them the negative aspects of the culture they are fleeing from. It is extremely difficult to find child care that is not dangerous to the child.
12
Is there some reason that the neighbor--or the neighbor's parents--since the neighbor was a teenager--did not inform the Krim family that morning that their nanny seemed, at the very least, distressed?
I hope that most of us would inform our neighbors if the person who is supposed to be caring for their children behaved so strangely.
It takes a village.
7
I will never forget the day this happened. My heart truly hurts for the Krims. How do you even go on? Horror in real life.
Krims, you’re amazing people.
9
I can't believe this case has dragged on for all these years and it's still not finished. End it already. God bless the Krims--they are wonderful people. I'm constantly inspired and amazed by the work that they do in memory of their children. I do wonder what happened to Ortega's son.
27
I don't want to hear anymore about this woman or this case.
That's not like me.
It's a story that rocked my hometown New York. Things need to be told I know.
I really can't take it.
She went mad.
She may have had a different life and reality in a different upbringing or circumstance.
But, she went mad.
As we do our best to bring healthy, functional people into our world, please just hide this person and her deeds away.
May God and our best angels protect and save us - especially our youngest.
And guide us to perfecting methods, our understanding our humanity.
22
No one wants to hear about tragedies and horrors like these. But we must make every effort to understand why they happen. Without that knowledge how do we learn to at least reduce the number of similar events from occuring over and over again?
10
Turning a blind eye to what goes on around us does no justice. That is what is wrong with society. We must address these issues head on, not lock them up in a closet and pretend it never happened and they did not exist.
1
People need to stop wasting time and energy thinking about excuses for why Ms. Ortega did something so incomprehensible. Let's be blunt- some people, whether due to sickness or anger, have no business in society. They can not be trusted to not do the worst- as Ms Ortega did.
What value is it to anyone to find the appropriate label for her when ultimately that label is meaningless?
The most sympathetic thing we can do for her, and society, is to in fact let her spend the rest of her life, primarily in a small box, at the lowest cost. She will never be "healed", and has zero chance of ever re-joining society as a whole. Ask yourself this- would you rather spend $3 million analyzing Ms Ortega? Or instead funding child care services for thousands of New York area families?
162
Mr. M, you're probably right about the funding issue. That said, she has a Constitutional right to a defense. And, there is some chance - although I agree it's not a big one -- that an analysis of what happened could lead to better screening of people who work with children in the future. It's not impossible that this leads to a better identification of "red flags."
25
Of course Ms Ortega should spend the rest of her life incarcerated in either a prison or mental institution for the crime that she committed, but that doesn't mean that the justice system--and society--shouldn't try to understand why someone with no criminal history or previous "bad acts" committed such a heinous murder. Trying to discover the reason(s) why this happened may offer warning signs to others and prevent something like this happening again, at least in theory. And money isn't an issue here: Just how much will it cost for Ms Ortega to be incarcerated for the next 30-40 years? She will never be free, as it should be, and the cost of that is another issue altogether.
7
The article states that she will definitely spend the rest of her life incarcerated, and the only question is whether she’ll be in a prison or a psychiatric hospital. I for one am intensely curious as to the ‘why’ behind her actions. Much like how meteorologists study tornadoes to better predict when and where they will strike, as a society, we need to understand as much as we can about the complexities of the human brain, awful tragedies such as this, to hopefully create an early warning system, of sorts.
7
I recommend the French novel loosely based on this crime -- The Perfect Nanny. An English translation was released this year.
13
How could anyone with children want to read that book?
21
They might learn something...like how to avoid hiring another person who is so angry or jealous or disturbed...the motivation is sadly very disturbed. But yes, I suggest we all run and hide from the truth.
5
Like many parents, I can't handle books about hurt or killed children. Can't even read that bestseller "All the Things I Never Told You".
1
Whether a jury believes an expert depends on whether the jury likes the defendant or not. A jury is not equipped to evaluate the competence or the objectivity of an expert, that is what peer review is for.
17
I find this article misleading about what a psychotic disorder does to the person suffering from it.
For one, a person with psychosis will often have periods of apparent and actual rationality. I could easily see someone with psychosis being judged during a window of clarity competent to be highly functional. The symptoms are not consistent moment by moment, day to day.
Second, the fact that nurses doubt she hears voices because they don't see her acting on them makes no sense. Even those of us who have no mental illness may be disturbed by thoughts that are in no way apparent to someone who passes us on the street. Someone I love hears voices all day long, and most people who encounter her would not be able to tell.
The strangest assertion in this article is the idea that her not having anti-psychotic medicines in her medicine cabinet demonstrates she does not have psychosis. A large proportion of those with psychosis do not seek or get regular care and even those with prescriptions often refuse to take their medications. Such refusal is part of the illness.
The event certainly is a tragedy, but if our laws say that a person is treated differently whose mental illness gave her no control over her actions, then this would seem to be such a case.
74
Dear Educator,
It's because the article is written in the context of the American judicial system, which historically has found entirely psychotic people legally "sane." Juries don't like the insanity defense. There was pretty irrefutable evidence Dahmer thought he was making zombies, but his insanity defense failed. Andrea Yates had a very clear and recent history of total psychosis but her insanity defense failed. There was even talk of trying the Unibomber -- who actually pled guilty, even though he had obviously been a genius mathematician whose life was derailed by paranoid schizophrenia. So the reality of mental disorders has nothing to do with the legal system.
4
Am I the only one who is curious about the nanny's work hours and pay that may have contributed to this tragedy?
28
Isn't that irrelevant given the circumstances?
51
In addition to childcare responsibilities, she was asked to do five hours of cleaning A WEEK. By all accounts I've read, both recently and at the time, she was treated fairly, and with respect.
But I'm curious, what sort of treatment do you imagine that could possibly justify what she did?
106
Hopefully
22
It's too bad there isn't a law that someone has to disclose if they've had psychiatric problems before they can work with children. We ask if they've committed a crime. But someone who's stolen some shampoo from Walgreens would probably not harm your children. Someone who is paranoid would. A "deeply unhappy employee" as she's characterized in this story would just get another job. Not butcher little children.
45
Background checks for firearms; Background checks for child care. Simple.
3
“She forbade her son from playing baseball or listening to music, and forced him to hide under a bed with her every time a dog barked.”
That seems pretty unambiguously psychotic to me. Case closed?
39
Perhaps some single-payer mental healthcare would help alleviate some of the insanity walking down America's main streets.
97
No sane person commits murder. The story is one of psychosis. No way is she mentally fit.
14
No sane person ever commits murder? Don't be silly, simply not true.
30
Plenty of sane people have committed murder. It's a crime of callousness and self-interest, not insanity.
12
No sane person ever murders children.
This is not a spouse killing a spouse for infidelity or a gang-related homicide. This is an adult looking at two children and using a hand-held weapon to execute them.
I repeat: No sane person ever murders children.
7
This is just an example of the state bowing to the misunderstandings of the public for political purposes.
Whether she is found not guilty by reason of insanity (NGRI) or convicted of murder, she will probably spend the rest of her life incarcerated.
Unfortunately most of the public thinks that when someone is found NRGI, they are either released immediately or spend only a brief time in a hospital, and usually a luxurious one.
Nothing could be further from the truth. If she was found NRGI, she would be locked up until judged she was no longer dangerous and, as she and no one else has a good idea why she killed the children, this is not going to happen in the near future if ever.
As to being in a hospital after being found NGRI being better than a prison, I would invited anybody to think what it would mean to be locked up with crazy, violent people for years on end. If that isn't an idea of hell, I don't know what it is.
Because of the ignorance of the public, hundreds of thousands of dollars are likely to be wasted on a trial when the state could save that money by allowing her to plead NGRI. But that would take courage on the part of the state, something politicians are sadly lacking.
50
I sure hope that she is never released, both for her own good and for that of society at large.
5
The prosecution has a lot more traps to fall into than the defense, who will make this case about class, race, and motherhood, and because of this trifecta of issues, it is harder in Manhattan to find a jury of Krim's peers than to find a jury of Ortega's peers, if for no other reason than Krim's peers are precisely those who are capable of getting out of jury duty.
On top of that is the less than stellar track record of the current Manhattan DA in winning high profile cases.
4
I see where you are going with that and why you would think that but stabbing two young children in the bathtub is going to wipe away any social arguments the defense might prevent. Also her guilt isn't in question according to the article it's just whether she will spend the remainder of her days in a prison or a psychiatric hospital.
9
I have tremendous sympathy for the family, and to a certain extent, for Ms. Ortega, who was certainly under stress. But I think it's important not to get derailed by the idea that Ortega was "working too hard" and underpaid, because one of the common traits of violent psychopaths is that they blame the victim for the crime. ("If she hadn't been rude to me, I wouldn't have had to kill her" etc) The idea that the crime was somehow justified by some very minor transgression (like being forced to use bad cleaning products) is typical of a sociopath.
I'm all for decent treatment of nannies, but the fact that the nanny developed a victim complex when her life started heading downhill does not mean she was in fact a victim.
244
I think she was (is) mentally ill and those little things pushed her over the edge. The fact that she has behaved very bizarrely on other occasions years before and on the days leading to the murder are indication of a disturbed person. When you are already hanging by a thread, those little things can be too much. Having said that, I am not saying she is innocent as I do not know to what extent she understood what she was doing and why. And my heart does bleed for the family.
9
under stress? She brutally murdered two children. She stabbed children to death. I am in favor of capital punishment, for such a crime. the NYT will not post this comment, because I say I endorse capital punishment.
24
Rachel C.: Please understand that psychopathy and sociopathy are personality disorders They are not psychosis.
4
To the Krim parents: I am sorry you need to see the death of your lovely children the subject of continued public analysis and commentary. I am so sorry for your loss. I cried for you when I first read the story years ago. I admire the strength and vigor with which you have continued living with your two children. We in NY feel for you and support you.
269
Killing like suicide for the mentally ill is most often, an impulsive decision. I think we're better served with asking just the question if the defendant is mentally capable to stand trial and has admitted without coercion that she knew what she was doing was wrong.
4
Depression and psychosis are NOT deeply unhappy. And a full psychiatric evalution might lead to one using many more terms to describe this person -- narcissistic (I don't do cleaning), depressed, probably paranoid. the situation was/is heartbreaking... and apparently no one saw that this person was descending into a private hell. I know more than one apparently functional person who complains about being followed. Many people are agoraphobic; some the opposite. To think everyone is rational is to make a mistake. Not everyone can take the stress of a job. Kids can be very trying... and frankly, most people have a limited repertoire of skills when it comes to dealing with children. Only a few really have the magical touch... that allows children to relax and behave. Often children are very wary of strangers... or modify their own behaviour to get along with the demands of??? Adults?? -- big people.... frankly over grown adolescents. I never cease to be amazed.... in both directions by what people are capable of. PS there need to be parenting classes... required... for all parents for many years...
15
I don't know what to make of this situation, there simply isn't enough information. But not wanting to do menial work that you weren't hired to perform is not "narcissistic."
20
Fine - propose a better term than narcissistic.... We all have to do some menial work.. Whether it distresses one or not is a function of???? ......ego??, super ego. I wonder what makes people irrational??
2