Guilt is emotionally loaded and has many meaning. Only certain adults have the right and they need to do so with extreme care. The first consideration is helping children to understand that their behavior has consequences . Feeling good about a good deed is as important as feeling bad about something hurtful. If the adult is simply interning in shaming and blaming a child, they should think twice. Thoseadults are bullies, and should have power over children.
With my two well adjusted children,, I told them, explained why and let them talk about it. You have the classic case where a parent seeing not the first act, but the second, blaming the instigator rather than the child defending themselves. If you are shocked, but act with fairness and get the full story, you can understand what happened and ask them about other ways it could have been handled.
We all make mistakes, but carrying around guilt and shame about isn’t right. What is right is learning how to be a better version of yourself. It is suggested thus happens at age six.
How to learn this! Observation. My parents back in the 1950s raised me this way. I developed internal standards. If someone pointed out something I accepted was wrong, I shaped it up. Do we want to raise conformists who are easily bullied or people with a strong sense of right and wrong that doesn’t continually have be reinforced by shame and blame?
I can't think of any way to encourage children to feel empathy other than by example, such as by a group reading of "A Christmas Carol" on December 24th. If their parents and society continue to show day after day that narcissism is rewarded and bullying gets attention, then they have a lot to slog through before they can be convinced that empathy is good for them and especially others. But even without taking into account today's capitalistic mindset, I just finished reading a tragic novel by George Eliot written over a 100 years ago whose main characters from early youth to later adulthood are two rather self-centered siblings, brother and sister. Though they had a loving father who himself tends to anger easily and who is later unfortunately undone by others, his children from a very early age acted selfishly, foolishly and assertively in almost every situation, rarely feeling any lingering guilt or remorse. It's altogether a long and grueling read that ends with their mutual demise, suggesting that by page 468 the author herself had had quite enough of them too.
Never label your children. Never say "you ARE bad". Parents should say that was a bad thing to do and I know you can do better and I am disappointed in you. They let it drop.
1
Thank you for saying it, because someone had to punch a hole in the No Guilt balloon ethos of psychobabble. Guilt serves an important purpose.
I'll never forget the day my daughter turned 2 and shocked me with an outright lie. She'd had drawn the letter B on the wall, and when I told her that she could not write on the wall and would help me clean it up, she said, "Junior did it. Not me." "Junior" was a child at daycare who was not speaking; he had never been to the house. He was always in some kind of frustration, mess, or trouble with the caretakers, and my daughter had somehow picked up on their feelings or ideas about him. I told her to stop lying, but she kept saying that Junior had done it. I got really mad at her and told her she should be ashamed of blaming someone else for what she had done. She just shrugged her pretty shoulders and waddled away, her diaper winking back and forth. I remember feeling quite helpless (and guilty!), worried that I had somehow raised a charming sociopath. She really could have cared less about poor Junior. She did grow up to be a highly intelligent, caring, and moral young lady. I think she owes it all to lots of opportunities to experience guilt via a Jewish mother plus equal amounts of sympathy and hugs!
2
I'm writing this before I read the other public's comments.
". . . the child chose to do something wrong, with certain results."
There is such wisdom in this article. That I learned and have reflected the sins of my parents has crippled me in important ways. This makes me wonder two things: can I climb up out of my depression and circle of bad reactions and actions and, does anyone think the human race as a whole could come to live by this wisdom.
So Tina Malti holds up the example of saying, "your sibling is crying, and this is because you have damaged his toy.” What English-speaking parent says that to a child?
Why not take the phrase to the extreme and say "Your sibling is crying, and this is because you have damaged his or her toy" or "Your sibling is crying, and that is because you have damaged your sibling's toy."
Or else take "his" to mean that the sibling is a he, and say, "Your brother is crying, and that is because you have damaged his toy."
Miriam, pass over a pedant's pitfall to hear what is said.
2
You are describing Donald Trump
3
I always heard that guilt means you did a bad thing and shame means you are a bad person. The former is probably useful to guide future behavior. The second will likely make you feel like it's hopeless to try harder.
2
Sandy bryant . . . did you read Perri Klass's differentiation between guilt and shame? Clearly stated, shame is feeling bad because of what other's think of you. Neither guilt nor shame inevitably leads to hopelessness. The article is about a parent's instruction or condemnation.
The difference between shame and guilt: If I spill ketchup on my shirt while eating alone in the kitchen, and no one sees it, I do not experience shame or guilt. But if the shirt was fine silk borrowed from a friend, I might experience guilt for having stained it. And if people saw me at the office with ketchup stains all over myself, I would experience shame.
1
This article seems to be focused only on one type of guilt: that which accrues in our interpersonal relationships (I hurt you, I feel bad). I would be much more likely to call that empathy.
Guilt is more about the negative emotions we feel when we behave in ways that we know are wrong (stealing, cheating, lying) but which may never explicitly hurt someone, or at least not to their knowledge (if you don't catch me stealing etc.). We can feel guilty about very small things (I stole your last piece of chocolate) and very large (I cheated on my spouse), but in most cases, the feelings are about US.
Shame is a precursor to both empathy and guilt, however; without shame, we have no moral compass at all. (Not religion--that just codifies shame for a specific group.)
Much as I like what Dr. Klass says in this column, I find this problematic:
"Count this as another area where our parents and grandparents probably had it easier than parents do today — they probably didn’t worry too much about making their children feel guilty."
The key word is "worry." Guilt induction, or guiltmongering, was considered a nonviolent way of disciplining children, much better than that discredited hitting and spanking. Unfortunately, soe parents thought that if some is good, more must be better.
I was the child who came home, found my parents fighting (more precisely, my mother yelling and my father whining), and was told that I had caused the fight.
I was also the pubescent girl who read in the New York Times Magazine that the make-him-feel-guilty approach can do as much harm as the iron fist. But my mother had readthe article first, and when she saw me reading it she angrily told me, "This does not apply to you!"
As I did in a previous post, I hold up Sheriff Andy as an example of proper guilt induction, and "just remember - you killed me" as an example of excessive guilt induction.
What may have happened is that the pendulum has swung the other way. The author of the earlier article may have been trying to get guilt down to a healthy dose; Dr. Klass is trying to get guilt up to a healthy dose and no higher. I'm sure that as a medical doctor she appreciates this balancing act.
1
Someone I used to care about a lot commented once, "Guilt is not a legitimate emotion."
In retrospect, with the wisdom of my years, I recognize his many other confusing and hurtful behaviors as all falling together somewhere on the psychopathy scale, and wonder how he got that way.
1
Guilt can be rationalized away if it is up to the individual. For one of today's examples, read Senator Franken's statement. None of the sexual predators discovered guilt on their own. Shame on them! Shame works more reliably than guilt. Unfortunately, now that NYT claims guilt as more superior a feeling, the predators will have a shameless way out.
So it's not ok to tell bullies "Shame on you"?
Let's rethink some of this stuff.
This is nonsense and silly semantics.
The only important word in this essay is "empathy." But the people for whom it is necessary--sociopaths--don't have the capacity to feel it.
And--as far as fellow commenters remarking upon--of course--Donald Trump--no, actually I'd say he's one of those people overwhelmed with guilt and shame and unable to deal with those burdens. Rather instructive to see how people who otherwise regard themselves as empathetic and progressive take such glee in reviling a profoundly damaged person. Perhaps save your scorn for his enablers who, regardless of their motives, do him no favors and/or are not expressing love.
He's so overwhelmed with guilt he's retweeting white nationalists and anti-Muslim videos, believes his own lies, and slams others for sexual harassment while completely ignoring his own shady behavior with women. Don't mistake calling someone out on their immoral and unempathetic behavior for glee. Some behavior - and people - should be reviled.
See my asian mother for advice on the matter.
Guilt and shame - these two qualities should also be looked from the angle of divorced/estranged couples. I doubt,if a custodial parent ever feels guilty ,when he/she denies the non-custodial parent the love,affection,and access of the child. This is a global problem. The custodial parent is also not ashamed in doing this. He/she is just not bothered about the suffering of the child,as the child needs both the parents . This is also another form of child abuse. Child abuse in any form is bad. Efforts should be made to make the world a better place for children - both of the parents living together,and divorced/estranged parents. One never comes across a study focussing on whether a custodial parent feels guilty or ashamed by denying the non-custodial parent the love,affection,and access of the child. It is a violation of human rights of both the child as well as the non-custodial parent. The UNICEF celebrates Universal Children's Day every year on November 20. Children are susceptible to undue influence at tender age. They do develop feelings for their siblings,if they are told to care for each other. But as adults ,things could be different. Jealously takes place of the love,and sometimes,this goes to nadir,by harming the interests of sibling - either financially,or emotionally. A sibling can destroy the life of the child of his/her sibling,by suggesting a bad marriage,and also playing a crucial role in it.
The experience of developing that ability to feel guilt around ages 5-6 when coupled with strict Roman Catholic teaching about sin, damnation, and the omniscience and omnipotence of God was very effective in instilling the ability to feel guilty about almost everything I did or failed to do and ashamed of every aspect of my being. My family of origin was pretty meagre in the affection/comforting resources that kids needed. I've been unlearning it all for 30 years. And still working at it.
5
Good points all.
2
Guilt and shame, two qualities completely lacking in the current version of the Republican Party and its Clown president.
35
A complete lack of empathy or a sense of guilt or shame allowed Donald Trump to become president.
Obviously for the children of Generation Trump, neither empathy, nor guilt nor shame. serve any purpose for those who want to get ahead.
31
One cringes at the masochism of Trump’s enablers.
3
I haven’t yet read the article but the headline picture is terrible. The child looks like he’s being terrorized.
9
I thought the same thing! Whenever a parent towers over a child, especially a small child, pointing that wicked finger in his face, an entirely different message is being sent to a child. I almost started to cry myself after looking at the expression of this little boy's face, not to mention his stuffed kitty cat is right next to him, alone. I thought the message of the picture vs. the message of the article were two entirely different scenarios. This child isn't being handed a "healthy dose of guilt" but rather an unhealthy dose of fear and terror.
9
The gesture the father is using is a shaming one.
3
Yes, who picked that picture to illustrate the story? The father is NOT giving the child a healthy dose of guilt, or a healthy dose of anything else.
It strikes me that with a child, his sense of guilt seems to be in direct proportion to the forgiveness extended him.
11
"The usual distinction is that guilt is the internal emotion, what you feel inside when you know you’ve done wrong or caused harm. Shame is external; it’s what you feel before the judgment of other(s)... But that distinction is a little simplistic... because “in the absence of an audience, we can feel shame just imagining it.”
Huh? "Guilt is an internal emotion that you feel inside" but "shame is external"? Shame requires others knowing & judging what've you've done?
Sorry, but this is hogwash. All emotions are internal; we feel them all inside. Shame is no exception; it's not a feeling that we experience as external to us. In fact, it's one of the deepest emotions we can feel - "inside."
Moreover, people often feel shame in secret for reasons also kept secret. Many feel enormous shame without anyone else knowing.
A better distinction between guilt & shame:
Guilt is what we feel over doing (or planning, wishing & or thinking of doing) something wrong/bad as defined by the moral codes we were brought up with &/or embrace as our own. The action done or contemplated is wrong/ bad, not the person.
Shame is the feeling that we ourselves are wrong or bad (or ugly, damaged, etc.) by falling short of moral & other codes we've internalized. Shame makes us want disappear or die.
How this relates to childrearing: admonish kids for what they've done, never for who they are. Don't say "you are a bad boy/girl" for doing x,y, z. Say instead "doing x,y, z is wrong & here's why."
24
Shame has to do with vulnerability, with being revealed to be flawed. Even when felt internally, shame carries the implication of being seen to be flawed. Guilt seems more a response to having done something wrong.
1
I think the difference between shame and guilt is subtler: you feel guilt if you are harming someone or damaging something and, would you discover you can’t do otherwise, you would want to die or disappear for sure. You feel shame when you have broken the social or the universal harmony. It could be that it was not your fault: for instance, you are wearing the wrong clothes because you can’t pay for the right ones or because you didn’t know what was right to begin with or you are speaking too loudly in a country where people are normally quieter but it is because you are used to speak loudly and it is something normal in your country. Even in such cases, you are still breaking the harmony and it is disturbing for other people around you.Therefore shame can help you to adjust to the rest of the world. Sometimes it is impossible to adjust and you want to disappear or die, but it is the same with guilt : some moral dilemmas simply don’t have perfect right answers.
Think of Hawthorne's novel "The Scarlet Letter": Hester Prynne experienced shame, while her lover Arthur Dimmesdale experienced guilt.
3
Guilt comes from within.. is what you feel on your own accord... Shame comes from the outside.. what you are made to feel.
Also, shame can be inflicted by strangers.. guilt can be taught/learned/acquired only from a person the child implicitly trusts and respects, and whose opinion the child instinctively values.
3
It is wrong to shame a child. Guilt induction, as outlined in this article, can also be wrong. It is wrong for a child to break another child's toy whether the child with the broken toy cries or not. That is simpler and cleaner. And, it is wrong for an adult to hit a small child no matter what. Adults who model ethical self-regulated behavior are more likely to raise children who can behave in an ethical self-regulated manner. And of course, everything happens along a continuum amid culture and internal neurochemical reaction.
2
I think that the real shortcoming of this article is the expectation that "guilt" is self-calibrating; sometimes, it is not. Quite often, siblings can start a fight over a toy because both of them feel - internally - that it was their right to play with it; thus, no guilt, because, well, they both can feel that it's THEIR feelings that got hurt, not the other person's. Even worse, sometimes it's really hard to be an unbiased external arbiter, so maybe sometimes it's actually more productive to go for shame (as in others see and justify your actions) than try to elicit guilt, which may backfire.
2
Guilt is a mature capacity to recognize doing harm to another person and- ideally- seeking reparation, atonement and apology.
Shame is quite different since it is inward, like humiliation.
Adults who have passive guilt, weighed down by it, may actually be communicating an involuted rage. Genuine guilt is not a permanent state of hopelessness & despair; it generates reflection, new perspective and remedies.
3
Is anyone else ashamed by the eagerness with which our society gives clinicians moral authority?
9
Guilt has to do with one's actions (perhaps even thoughts); shame with one's being. It's fine to feel guilty because one can alter one's behavior or atone for one's short-comings. One cannot alter one's being--being poor, being inadequate, being "bad." Good essay.
5
My parents were loving, totally devoted to their only child whose birth nearly ended the mother's life. Now in final years, I am tormented often by memories of times I failed to do the right thing
Even a tiny ridiculous event can suddenly jab out a memory. Regret and remorse, not just of mistakes but of good actions I might have done better,
have increased as I've grown older. Where did it start? My parents were not provokers of guilt, they were if anything, the opposite. Because my mother was a non-practicing but dedicated Catholic, as a child I attended a couple of summer sessions with priests and nuns, made my First Communion. But when time came for me to make my First Confession at age five or six, I struggled to remember some sin I'd committed -- and failed miserbly. So instead, in the confessional to the priest, I made up a story of something bad I'd done. It satisfied the priest, I said whatever Hail Marys were required,
but soon after, I became concerned with what I saw as hypocrisy, including adults who behaved badly during the week, but on Sundays were absolved from wrongdoing. Besides, some of the meanest kids were alter boys. I sought my own path to relationship with a possible God. Now, so many years later, a sense of humor helps, and trying to dedicate my remaining time to good works, even though "making up" for the past is impossible, brings some comfort. Don't know why. Near-perfect parents, not-so-perfect anguished son. Depression perched on shoulder. Sing.
10
Some of us are just more sensitive. Don't beat yourself up.
You sound like a poet, if that makes you feel any better.
9
My siblings and I could never remember all our sins either so we would often make up or share sins to be brought into the confessional. When we finished our time with the priests, we would exchange information about our penance and whether it was commensurate with our sins. While some may frown, this bonded us as siblings. I later grew to have a strong faith life, albeit not a Catholic one.
1
Thank you for kind words.
If I were trying to make a living as a poet, I'd really be down in the dumps.
Can't tell whether we beat ourselves up,
or if The Past is a character in our singular dramas that keeps coming back like a song or a swat in the head. Might be something instructive in Dickens' prohetic "Christmas Carol." Bless us ---- every one.
dg
2
I'm 46 years old. And sometimes I feel as if the world I grew up in has vanished. Because all of a sudden it is "news" to experience guilt? Or to want our children to feel guilt?
Guilt is unpleasant. It is supposed to be.
You feel guilty because *YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG.* There are things that are right and thing that are wrong. If you do something wrong, 'own it,' make amends, and don't do it again. The world is not about you.
27
You are right. The world you grew up in vanished when parents surrendered their common sense to the psychologists. This started when the baby boomers became parents. I knew quite a few who wouldn't make a parental move without first consulting a book. There is nothing terrifying about the photo that leads this article. A child is being admonished. This happened to me more than once as a child, and it did not traumatize me. I hope this namby-pamby approach to child rearing is not typical of American parents.
1
Not so at all. My mother consulted Dr. Spock, as did many parents of baby boomers. (Cheeky kid as I was, I quoted Dr. Spock back at her.)
And before Spock, there were other authorities who advised, for example, that children would be spoiled if they got any kisses more affectionate than a brief peck on the forehead. There were even child-rearing manuals in colonial New England.
Those who say that parents of millennials were the first to consult the experts probably think the world began when they were born.
1
Sorry, Endora, guilt isn’t always about something you did wrong. It’s about someone bigger, older, with more authority, screaming, pushing, hitting, tearing into you demanding guilt. When guilt is caused by fear it can be internalized as anger and RAGE. I’m 66 & know it, lived with it, for much of my life. I can see it here in these columns. My reaction so strong that as I type I shake. I was taught hate of a person, any person was wrong. After I grew up I learned hate of particular people, for their actions can save you. At least it moves you away from them, at most you physically stop them. Hit a kid in front of me, & even though I move around in a wheelchair now, I will flatten you. I couldn’t have done anything as a kid. I was too shy, too scared of authority. Now I am not, haven’t been for a long time, but, still shake with anger when I see those with presumed authority trying to instill guilt among the guiltless. I know, it was every day in 3rd grade. That teacher hit, slapped, pushed, shook, her eyes aglow with pleasure, for things that the children she picked out couldn’t have done. One case: someone trashed a boys’ room. She picked 4 girls to punish. Wimps all. Oh the room was on another floor, none of us would have dared go up there. It was forbidden. But, boy did she have fun. You sound like you always believe authority figures. Some do out of fear. Otherwise they might be blamed. Are you one of those?
2
My father worked on the railroad. Finished the 6th grade and then the Depression( 1930)
crashed into his childhood and he went to work where it could be found.
His greatest skill as a parent ( he was an avid reader, writer of spectacular WWII love letters to my mother and chronicler of lifelong observations at the dining room table late at night) was handing me a piece of paper and telling me to "write down what you thinking just before you ______".
The blank was whatever the crime was- "just before you threw that 2x4 at the kid next door,etc.
I have to say that as a child sitting alone staring at a blank piece of paper and organizing my thoughts to be reviewed by my father and discussed later on really was helpful in modifying my " wild tomboy "behavior circa mid 1950's and made me become more thoughtful in a constructive way at an early age.
It also provided one on one ,eye to eye contact with my father during the discussion period on what my written explanation was.
"I threw it because I was mad and sick and tired of him picking on me and then running away ,laughing back at me
No, I never thought of the consequences afterwards. No ,I never thought that the piece of 2x4 would actually hit him in the head. No , I never thought about him having to get stitches. No ,I never thought about Mom crying about me fighting with boys. No, I never want Mom to be sad about what I do. Am I going to be sent to reform school?"
If needed, Google reform school .
17
I appreciate this article tremendously. I see guilt as critical to parenting.
6
Excellent piece, explaining the importance of guilt in the moral development of a child and subsequently an adult.
Unfortunately, in some situations parents use guilt in a child to advance their own agenda. Or to shape thinking and behaviors that confirm to the expectations of the parent.
A child should be encouraged to develop a healthy balance between good behavior and self expression.
6
This goes some ways in understanding why certain of our elite leadership class, starting with the POTUS, are as they are doesn't it? 'Course...when you're a +70 year old adult still acting like a self-centered, ignorant and narcissistic, child I'm inclined to forgive a whole heck of a lot less than I would a 5 year old; and more likely to want to smack that adult up side his/her head in as up close and personal a fashion as law and ethics allow.
Just sayin' is all....
John~
American Net'Zen
18
Trump looks entirely liberated from the emotion of guilt to me.
7
John, there's no such thing as just sayin'. No speech act addressed to others is motiveless.
Must we bring Trump into everything? Don't we remember how we detested commenters who brought Obama into everything?
It is wrong to shame a child. It is important to teach kindness. If the child has been unkind, there should be a discussion, with resolve to learn from the mistake. Kindness is everything.
23
What goes around comes around. One stands on weak ground when one charges others with a wrong one regularly commits oneself.
4
My first thought: are you a parent or someone who has 24/7 lifetime interaction with a human from birth through your death? Shame and guilt resound through the lifetime relationship - including the older human acknowledging shame/guilt regarding behavior. 24/7 promotion of "kindness" by elders will get your "clay feet" exposed by the very clever maturing humans who observe every behavior of the elders. Modeling kindness, yes, "discussing" kindness - children learn very quickly how ignorant we adults/grand-adults really are.
3
What about if a child rapes another human being?
It happens.
Should we discussion it with the child to help him see that it was not that what he did was wrong, but that what he did was unkind?
2
A timely article, when we're all thinking a lot about sociopathy and psychopaty - whether we know it or not - when we see the antics of our elected oligarchs. Somehow, they're immune to guilt or shame and have no ability to connect their own behavior to the suffering of others, or even to the potential for suffering consequences themselves.
34
Parents don't seem to teach their children this at all anymore. It's all been Oprah-ized so that shame/guilt is a dirty word. Two children are beating each other up in the aisle at the Whole Foods and the mother says "Brianna don't hit Keegan in the face. Thank you, mommy loves you." We're ending up with a slightly externally socialized group of savages. Watch the twenty and even thirty somethings at work, on public transit, in stores. No one else exists but them and their ruthlessness and lack of guilt are amazing.
45
i think this is because consideration is now considered "people pleasing" -- a no-no.
6
Eve, I'm old enough to remember when there were no smartphones, no social media, and no such celebrity as Oprah Winfrey. Guiltmongering, shaming, and the lack of either were live issues even then. But bogeymen were different, and "permissiveness" was the scowl-word.
Rather than imposing guilt, how about pathologically leading by example?
5
Our leaders already provide pathological examples of leadership.
1
Leading by example is what parents should do, but PATHOLOGICALLY leading by example? Is that a good thing?
(Sorry for the all caps but there's no way to use italics.)
"You should be ashamed of yourself". This was all my mother had to say for me to think about what I had done and why its was wrong. And did my best not to repeat it. Why are parents so afraid to call their kids out on bad behavior? I believe it was a silver bullet for me, but then again I had great respect for my mother and her opinions.
37
"Guilt induction." Concrete strategies. How about recognizing there is real right and wrong out there, which are right and wrong independent of the moral actor and his feelings about it? Sorry, Dr. Klass, but moral good and evil is not primarily about--as Ms Piggy would put it--"moi."
4
Why do you think Klass denies that right and wrong are independent of the moral actor?
The closing quotation from Dr. Egger:
"The important developmental step is 'their capacity to know right and wrong, to behave in that right way, and when they don’t, to repair it with honesty and straightforwardness.'"
2
Too much is never enough for the Koch boys. They just bought the naming rights to Man of the Year. One wonders whom they will elevate, now that Trump has publicly declined the honor.
2
The greatest gift you can instill in your children ( at least I have tried with me own ) is for them to be empathetic.
With that emotion, you cut down on their actions where they might be guilty for anything in the first place. They think ahead about how it might affect the people around them. ( especially siblings )
There will always be hair pulling and the like though ...sigh.
21
I certainly used "you should be ashamed of yourself" with my daughter. There were times when she absolutely should have been ashamed by her behavior and I called her on them.
30
So should she be ashamed of her behavior (what she did), or of herself (what she is)? If the latter is true, or if the two are inseparable, why shouldn't she take you at your word - that she's a bad person who's incapable of goodness?
Fine. Now, can she shame you back?
1
This MD is no JD nor DD. The practice of medicine, law and theology are part art and non-scientific inquiry. This MD is tracking Oprah Winfrey and Ann Landers with this unhealthy dose of nonsense. A Doctor of Philosophy is a phony doctor who knows an awful lot about very little that is meaningful to daily human life.
A daytime reality show is where this type of bloviating buffoonery belongs. Dr. Benjamin Spock was no Vulcan Dr. Spock from the "Star Trek" galaxy. Raising our kids is much too important to be left to MD's, JD's, DD's and Phd's.
2
The Star Trek character was Mr. Spock.
How this "No Shame" nonsense ever got started is beyond me. It ignores fundamental and effective methods of constructing a working moral framework for our society. Sure, we used it too much and often for the wrong reasons in the past. But as a properly directed tool parents and society in general should not hesitate to employ it. Case in point. It used to be considered shameful to ruin your life and family with drugs and die from an overdose. But that all changed somehow over the past 10-15 years. I remember a few years back when Phillip Seymour Hoffman died from an overdose and all you heard was "Oh it's so sad." Yes, it was sad. That this man caused enormous harm to his family and children by selfishly using drugs till he was dead and in the ground. That's shameful behavior. But we lost sight of that in in the process of this acceptance of the unacceptable now have the largest drug crisis in the history of this country on our hands.
Listen up, NYT Readers. Most people don't respond to facts. They don't know how to find them, evaluate their sources...or worse yet, they don't even care. The last Presidential election provides ample evidence of this. But all of these same people DO respond to shame. We need to be a little more realistic about human nature if we hope to really influence the way people think. Because fact based knowledge and rationality alone are not getting the job done.
20
You actually think Trump supporters experience shame? Come on. We wouldn't be in the mess we are in now if they had any shame.
3
You think our addiction epidemic results from a lack of shaming? Wow, I don't know where to start. Addicts feel a tremendous amount of guilt and shame for being unable to control a biological compulsion. Those feelings only feed the addiction. Our current epidemic arose from careless over-prescription of legal opiates, leading to tragic wreckage in the lives of people who were following doctor's orders. Facts, sources? Find some!
3
President Trump comes closest to any person I've ever encountered in public life to being completely devoid of guilt and moral shame. He lies about everything. His hair, his IQ, his wealth, the size of his inauguration crowds, his treatment of women, his opponents, the size of his hands, you name it, he lies about it. He even lies in broad daylight about not lying to the American people, as if to say, as long as you know I'm lying, it's not lying. I am in favor of awarding him a Nobel Prize and a mention in the Guiness Book of Records for his lying without guilt or moral shame. We already know that we are never going to be great again under him, and this at least would be something.
23
And yet Donald Trump's opponent, Hillary Clinton, who is generally NOT believed to be like your description of Trump as a person for the most part, was widely perceived as someone who stood for nothing but her own self-interest, even by many women. In fact, that's where Republicans have an advantage. Republicans stand for something (ignorance, homophobia, misogyny, racism, xenophobia), But Democrats mostly stand for nothing except for the fact that they are not as bad as Republicans.
1
I don't think that is the wide perception of her. I voted for her and thought of her as someone with a long history of public service starting back in her college days at Smith and in her work for Children's Defense Fund with Marian Wright Edelman, trying to get health care started in the Clinton Administration, working of the State Department, helping to ratify the Start Treaty, getting money for NYC after the 9/11 attacks, etc. I think she was in politics a long time and has given many speeches for money, most of which goes to the Clinton Foundation, a charity, which is not a secret organization or business like those of Trump. I think she stands for competence, humanity, safety, and Americans. The Republicans can't be said to stand for anything without making the phrase meaningless. The only point I can grant is that Hillary is not dramatic; it's not like the Trump soap opera. Being older, I would much prefer a boring, competent, caring leader. In terms of acting solely in self-interest, surely, that is where Trump is the winner.
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I always thought there was a simpler distinction between guilt and shame. It's about actions vs. traits. You feel guilty about something you did. You feel ashamed of who you are.
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Guilty = You committed a misdeed based on the standards of society and the evidence at hand.
A person can feel ashamed even if he or she has no reason to feel ashamed.
E.g., in war the survivors often feel guilt because they survived...and the people around them were killed.
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Very clear distinction between guilt and shame.
My only problem with this article is only you can make yourself feel guilty. No one can "lay a guilt trip" on you. Others can impress upon you how wrong something was or how disappointed in you they are, but they cannot make you feel guilty--that only comes from within. So if you're feeling guilty, that's on you, not on the other person.
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So if someone feels guilty , put the blame on them for feeling guilty. Anyone who believes this advice will be either a self-hater or a sociopath.
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Social media and SmartPhones have rendered guilt obsolete and canceled out empathy. Sorry!
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The adult who accidentally transgresses but justifies it by saying "I didn't mean to..." has never developed healthy guild nor empathy. His parents should be ashamed of themselves.
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Maybe it is just growing up Catholic - Garrison Keillor named the Catholic Church in Lake Wobegon "Our Lady of Perpetual Responsibility" - but I am not sure when it became wrong for kids to feel shame and guilt. Sure, we don't let teachers put dunce caps on our kids - we don't publicly shame them - but we should obviously be teaching them to consider their actions in a moral framework.
We could use more people who don't feel entitled to do whatever they please, who think of others, who do not court general opprobrium with their actions, who have more self respect than self esteem, who are cowed by the idea that others will find their actions beyond the pale.
Imagine if our politicians were not shameless.
Go ahead and make sure that we teach our children when to take responsibility and feel shame and guilt, and when not to. But really, we could use an old fashioned sense of wanting to avoid being pilloried in our society today.
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In fact Darwin believed that shame, or the capacity for shame, is the unique and distinctive emotional signature of homo sapiens and other social species. It conveys the vulnerability of each individual to the gaze of the other and, hence, our inclination to sociability. "Have you no shame?", thus, questions the person's capacity to be a contributing member of the group.
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What make Christianity (in all its forms) a superior religion as a practical matter is that the Christian, no matter what he or she does, can always claim and usually receive forgiveness from his/her fellows (who are often guilty as well but haven't yet been caught).
Because of this, Christianity is THE most morally relativistic of ALL religions.
In all other religions, if one commits a mortal sin, salvation is essentially lost.
Many innate emotional responses to experiences get scrambled by the cultures people are born into.
This is a really well written. Human beings are genetically altruistic. Therefore guilt, shame and reward become part of our upbringing so that we might preserve our ability to survive as a social animal. Some might describe that as human decency. Some might even invoke God. In the end, we are developing those skills that help us survive in complex world where we aspire to have a sum total of more good than bad.
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We are evolving social animals who carry an evolving set of rules for relating to each other.
Whew. I'm off the hook in the mothering category!
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Absolutely, there is such a thing as healthy guilt! It is called having a conscience, and is essential for civilization.
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Guilt is (sometimes) healthy because it comes from within and is genuine. Shame is always bad news because it comes from others, is cruel and abusive, and is often used as a social cudgel to advance some agenda or other.
Guilt makes decent citizens; shame makes serial killers.
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Which is why I truly believe that civilization could end under DJT Sr., by the collapse of our country into economic chaos, or due to a nuclear war which no one will win, or after a world war, which will usher in the era of Sino-Russian dominance. I am truly glad that I am unlikely to live more than 20 more years at the most.
The key word is "healthy," and just because it guilt doesn't mean it's healthy. As a medical doctor, Perri Klass must appreciate why some chemkicals can be dispensed over the counter, while others should be dispensed only by prescription.
Guilt and shame are like Vitamin A. Some of it is necessary for good health, but too much of it is toxic.
An example oof a healthy dose of guilt is how Sheriff Andy Taylor talked to Opie after Opie shot a bird. (I hope it's on YouTube.)
A toxic dose of guilt is when a child makes some morally permissible choice that is incondistent with what the parent wants, or just tries to develop that strength of character that is necessary for living as an adult, and the parent accuses the child of inflicting life-shortening stress. ("Just remember - you killed me." Yes, it happens in real life, not just in jokes.)
All this goes to show how fallacious it is to think that if some is good, more must be better.
Genuine, straight-up aggression is easy to spot and more rare than people think. It's passive or manipulative aggression that gets ignored or even praised by parents and society where the real trouble happens. Kids who work to control others rarely feel guilt or shame but cause much more suffering than purely aggressive ones.
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And if children are not confronted about these behaviors (hopefully in a nonpunitive way that will not just make them defensive so that this kind of manipulation will just become more entrenched) their ethics and conduct will be difficult to change.
Many children take rules of conduct very literally and have not yet understood that they need to be applied not just in "the letter of the law" but also in "the spirit of the law".
We, as adults and parents need to clarify this for them.
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"...very young children may cry if they break a toy, but children do not have enough understanding of other people’s perspective to experience the more complex emotion of guilt until around age 6. By then, she said, most children report guilt in response to transgressions, and that can help them treat other people kindly. “There’s lots of evidence that healthy guilt promotes children’s pro-social behavior,”...
A woman is in her house when she hears a crash coming from the next room --
She goes into the room to see her six-year-old son standing there with pieces of a shattered lamp scattered on the floor --
"What happened ?" - she asks -
"I don't know." - comes the sheepish answer -
"Who did this ?" - she inquires -
"I don't know." - replies the child, as he avoids eye contact while pulling on his hair nervously --
"Did you do this?" - Mom asks - as the child, unable to understand the complex mechanism by which healthy adults are able to admit and accept responsibility for their actions - begins to cry and runs away to his room, which he views as a "safe place" --
The result is the child now feels guilt - an emotion he does not, and is unable to understand - along with one he does understand - fear - of the unknown impending results which will fall on him as a result of his having broken the lamp --
How about - in a gentle and loving manner -
"I think we both know who broke the lamp, but I'm happy you're okay and I love you. And it's okay to tell the truth" ...
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Everything that is interesting in human life revolves around seeing it from other people's perspectives. Language and art evolved to convey and experience the perspectives of others.
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Except not everyone lives in fantasy/perfect world.
The age of the child is important, but
if a child lies, the adult should not hesitate to say it.
Sadly these days parents only have one or two children. They are just getting the hang of it when their parenting of young children skills become useless.
TIna is right. For too long we have allowed our boys in our patriarchal societies to get away with disrepect for girls and women. Exhibit A: Donald Trump; it’s very likely his parents never taught him empathy respect or moral guilt. When it got harder they send him to military school by which time it was too late.
Exhibit A - II: Bill Clinton; womanizing did not come with moral guilt even inside a marriage. Even worse, he is still defended by baby boomers who themselves lived the liberating years of sexual permiscuity in the 60s, when open marriages and relationships came into vogue. The moral guilt aspect of it is still not apparent to his supporters. If Hillary had admonished his philandering behavior early on, we would witness a different ending to his presidency.
In the light of Weinstein like behaviors, it is imperative people pay attention to Tina Malti’s Research.
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Why is it up to a wife to "admonish" her husband? And why do you think she has more control over a spouse than any other wife?
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Trump's daddy seems to have prepared his boy to cope quite well with life in the USA by sending him to a punitive military academy with a fat bankroll.
Hilary is just an example, an exhibit and an important one, cuz she stands on a platform for messages to young girls and women. If a wife is oblivious of a philandering husband, it is one matter, but someone who is aware and yet does not do anything to give her husband a "healthy dose of guilt" just means that she is sending a message to all girls -- it is ok if your husband womanizes other women while married to one.
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Erik Erikson proposed that children DO need to be able feel and experience at least a very small dose of shame, the kind that comes from realizing that hurting someone should cause shame at one's own actions, and thus endeavor not to cause harm to other living beings. Perhaps that is the same as the 'moral guilt' proposed here.
Throughout history, and evermore today, we see multitudes of examples -- people in power, politicians, people with the power to harm others -- having absolutely NO sense of shame, nor moral guilt, nor a moral consciousness/conscience.
I think he was correct, that it must be just enough shame for a child to begin to develop a moral consciousness. Otherwise, we end up here.
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Under the Hillel formulation of the Golden Rule, one does not do to others what one does not want to experience oneself, such as injustice.
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No need for so called academic experts on this topic. Most of it is common sense.
If you lie, cheat, steal or in any way intentionally hurt someone, you should know that those behaviors are wrong and unacceptable, and you should feel some guilt and some shame.
Early on who but parents (and at times teachers) are going to teach these things. People who don't feel any guilt or shame, or know right from wrong...don't change. Look at you know who.
And yes, children have to be taught that feeling ashamed when they've hurt someone is generally not something you hold onto and you don't keep beating yourself up over it.
You feel it, remember the lesson and let it go. At that point the past is the past, don't dwell on it, just behave yourself going forward.
And all of these insights take years to fully learn; growing up and maturing is a process and challenge for us all. And in some ways it never ends.
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This is parenting 101. We lost our way with the rearing of the millennials, who were brought up to believe they could do no wrong and that every thought and action and opinion should be equally weighted and valued, no matter how obtuse or uninformed. The result is a society that has lost its sense of direction. Progressive, no judgement, anything goes social policies paved the way for Donald Trump and his minions.
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Nice try, but I don't think you can blame the current state of society on the millennials. Those of us 40 and over need to accept responsibility and let the guilt/blame we'd like to assign to the kids inspire the hard work of change in us that can contribute to a more just and caring/cared-for world.
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"Oh why can't they be like we were, perfect in every way?"
--Harry McAfee, in "Bye Bye Birdie"
The isdue of guilt especially related to aggression and rule violations has a genetic origin so approaches to treat it are different than for anxious children
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The "difference between right and wrong" cannot be taught because there is no single rule that applies to all situations at all times.
Distinguishing between right and wrong is a lifelong learning process inextricably related to unconditionally loving childhood relationships and quality education.
It takes a healthy family to raise a a moral child.
It takes a healthy society to raise a moral population.
Having elected to the presidency a moral leper raised in an sociopathic family, it is obvious that America is not healthy enough to have a moral political culture.
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Who decides what is moral and what is not moral? YOU? a church? a political party? lefty liberalism?
There are things that are moral for (say) one religion to do that would be very immoral in another religion.
Some people thing that homosexuality is a sin; other people think it is wonderful and actually better and more moral than heterosexuality.
There is no evidence that Donald Trump is a "moral leper" any more than Bill Clinton or 1000 other politicians. Lots of people say stupid things or do questionable things, but are not "moral lepers" -- has Trump sold drugs to children? molested children? killed anyone? what is your definition of "moral leper" (It sounds like your definition is "I don't like him" and "he didn't deserve to win the Presidency", which are shoddy reasons.)
And if you were raised in an unhealthy family, is all hope lost?
Please, send this article to the White House.
Implementing the final paragraph, should be a pledge for humans to sign, to uphold, before they're allowed to conceive a child. Or serve in a public office.
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The article ends with "The important developmental step is “their capacity to know right and wrong, to behave in that right way, and when they don’t, to repair it with honesty and straightforwardness.”
You are talking about children here, but I can't help to think that this is an important lesson our President never learned. We would be in a better place if he had.
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"Young children with anxiety are at increased risk of developing depressive symptoms, and “overwhelming guilt is a key symptom of depression,” Dr. Egger said."
....and that's the rub.
I was brought up with a lot of love, but also a lot of "emotional manipulation" meant to teach me to feel guilt/shame in my obligations towards others. I am a super empathetic person, perhaps as a result, but it led me down some bad paths in my youth when it came to what I tolerated in the behavior of others--and I have a life long problem with anxiety/depression as a result.
It took me years of therapy to understand things like boundaries, and putting my own emotional needs in the center in a balanced way.
So with my kids, I did not want to make the same mistake.
We took the approach of working from the center and outward. We shied away from shaming/guilting as we believed it was emotional manipulation and not at all empowering. Instead, we taught our kids about empathy, empowerment to right wrongs, and let that combination do the teaching.
We taught good manners, good citizenship, global responsibility and ideas about respect. I am proud to say that our kids are thoughtful, kind and well liked as a result.....and unlike young me, they are also not suckers!
Teach your kids to be mindful. Teach them imagine how others feel but also to name their own emotions. Being in control of oneself is a pre-requirement to true empathy and being a responsible citizen and friend.
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"...name their emotions": Yes, an accurate, skilled or practiced sense of what is actually being experienced is what can lead to "connection," a potentially empowering experience leading to feeling more fully alive and available to "life."
Humans experience what are actually almost infinitely unique "emotions," and we can become enslaved by one-word terms for what are actually very rich experiences.
Too many "authorities" are linked at the hip with the word "anxiety," a word that allegedly is appropriate for social discomfort all the way to PTSD.
How about--yes, guilt and shame--but distress, anguish, fear, terror: let us empower ourselves and others with a language connection to our deeper and more specific/unique experiences; and let's acknowledge interest, enjoyment, excitement, and joy.
Like "anxiety," however "excitement" is too often an experience which is marketed to us and consumed, its power mowing down everything in its path: a little excitement can go a long way, especially when it might be best to stay in touch with what is actually of "interest" to us and those we are potentially or hopefully connected to.
A sensitive child who makes mistakes innately feels guilty about the consequences and hurts of those mistakes. Parents of sensitive children can take heart that the child's profound sense of right and wrong will guide him or her to better behavior. Because of that, there's no need for parents to punish. Rather, displays of love, encouragement and support go a long way to reinforce a child's already-burgeoning empathy and compassion for others.
By the same token, parents must be hyper-vigilant that their sensitive children do not take on responsibility for things they have nothing to do with, i.e., adult problems and dysfunctions. Parents must set up strong boundaries for the child, so the child does not shoulder inappropriate responsibilities. There are parents who are all too happy to pass on responsibility for their issues to their children, and that is simply emotional abuse.
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The guilt emotion fundamentally moderates civilization. A normal healthy person experiences guilt whenever they unintentionally harm another through carelessness or inattention, and whenever they discover that they supported or aided in some intentional administration of harm or punishment that turns out to have been unjust.
How well do you think this process works in the mind of Donald Trump?
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How well does that work for you, Mr. Bolger? You practically have made a career of sitting around and posting hateful comments on these forums -- attacking YOUR FELLOW AMERICAN citizens and calling them "deplorables"? Are YOU the kind of moral person you claim Mr. Trump ought to be?
Another way parents instill guilt in children is arguing about how to talk to the kids when the kids can hear them. Parents please agree to talk privately about how you want your kids to behave and what you want to say or do when there is some behavior you want to correct.
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This is well said and a necessary commentary, because it seems that groups in our society tend to go to the extremes -where all guilt is bad or all behavior is ruled by guilt.
I'm not sure we would have a green /ecological movement, or animal protections, or for that matter, protections for human workers, without the capacity to feel if not outright guilt for our actions and inaction, but an unease that can only be relieved by righting wrongs, if we were not capable of feeling guilty for ignoring these dilemmas.
And where we have in full view, day by day, what shameless
behavior looks like, and wish that some leaders actually felt some guilt
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