We need more doctors and nurses here in Eastern Canada, especially in Nova Scotia where there is a severe shortage. They'll all be more than welcome with jobs waiting. Canada appreciates immigrants.
Another alternative for the NS is to bring them in from Cuba where there's an excess of medical personnel working as bartenders, waiters and cab drivers. They're well known worldwide for their expertise and dedication.
8
Coming soon to a hospital in YOUR neighborhood.
12
Update: Talk about hypocrisy, in today’s (nov.23)there is another article addressing the housing crisis among the young in the “Post Brexit” era. To suggest this is a crisis prompted by Brexit is such a lie I find it shocking that The Times would allow it, and is precisely what brought about Brexit. There have been articles in the Times and F.T. For years about the lack of affordable housing in London as developers have concentrated on luxury(high profit) housing for the one percent as the rank and file fought over the left overs with the refugees from the Iraq war. In one article in the Times an educated young man paying 850pounds a month to live in a very small shipping container. No different in American cities such as San Francisco, Portland and L.A. where tens of thousands sleep rough every night as the kings of finance, tech and merchant princes glide among their numerous homes around the world. Today makes the gilded age look positively splendid. England has their Brexit we have Trump thanks to the years of ignoring the rank and file. A sign of our times: The recent article on Irene Rosenfeld, lauded as a retiring c.e.o. Of Kraft or Mondelez I believe. In her bio was a shining moment when she took over Cadbury the venerable British candy maker promising to keep the factory in Britain open as a central part of the deal So the first step of course was to close the factory when the ink was dry and refuse to attend Parliamentary hearings on the matter. Such lovely people.
21
British corporatocracy have got into the habit of blaming everything on Brexit , to mislead the public , hiding their own wrong diagnosis of the malady , and to offer an excuse for their lack of control over inordinately high insurance premiums for MDU charged to the doctors espy the locum doctors on flimsy grounds making their practice economically unviable forcing them to leave britain and find jobs elsewhere. Britian does not know how to keep NHS well trained doctors in their fold throwing them at the mercy of greedy predatory insurance corporations . Britain should learn how to support their trained doctors from the clutches of commercial insurance corporations. GMC is also not doing proactively anything to support the doctors whom they licence . Its not brexit the real villain or the culprit. Dont get into the habit of blamimg the Brexit and slip yourselves away form taking supportive measures to allivveiate the problems of the trained GPs with considerable experience . DONT side with the complaining public against the doctors.. Bashing the GPs to mollify habitual complainers. Then Britain would be left with complaining public with no doctors to even complain against. BE AWRAE !
7
We should be glad that voters face the consequences of their actions. How else will they learn that rabid nationalism, nativism, bigotry, and intolerance will not serve them in the long term. When Trump and company finishes with America, Trump supporters will rue the day they went to the polls to vote for this egomaniac.
29
Where is Nigel Farage now?
12
Do the vote over
5
The elites except for groveling ,have hardly any intention of finding out the real problem of the understaffed NHS. Instead of solving it they try to ascribe all their ills to BREXIT which is absolutely WRONG. Doctors and Nurses are leaving the NHS for a different reason. The MDU ( Medical Defence Unit ) which insures doctors and Nurses charge exorbitant premiums on the pretext of covering complaints from patients. Some patients complain habitually.The doctors have no time or convenience to know who are such patients whereas the Insurance company can easily find it out from the data they keep centrally. Just on flimsy complaints the MDU raises the premiums unreasonably. No govt. agency checks or controls the rationale of MDU premiums .Its a major reason that foreign doctors are finding it discouraging to work in the NHS , esply for the Locums whose MDU they have to pay themselves. Will the NHS rationalize the MDU ? Put a ceiling on MDU premiums charged by the greedy insurance corporations.At least 50 % of the doctors esply the GPs,the NHS has trained would return to the UK then. If NHS is serious about reducing the unavailability of doctors . But if the NHS is trying to save money by keeping strength of doctors low just paying lip service cribbing on shortages without seriously doing anything to remedy the situation,putting the blame on Brexit, then its the pleasure of the NHS . Don't try to cheat or mollify the public by offering them false excuses.
10
Brexit was not necessarily a rejection of all things non-British, although undoubtedly some who voted for Brexit are disturbingly xenophobic and nativist. Brexit was a demand that the UK take greater control of decisions, rather than delegating that responsibility to the EU. If the UK needs more nurses (or laborers or pharmacists or whatever), the UK can always make that an immigration priority. Brexit does not prevent that; it simply lets the UK decide its goals and the means of achieving those goals, in immigration and other areas.
9
And still the chattering class doesn’t understand that many British want thier country to remain British, not subject rule the EU directive. So they have to do what everybody else does, train and pay British nurses and doctors.
21
A month ago my daughter gave birth in a London hospital. It was a problematc pregnancy and a traumatic birth. Nobody’s fault just bad luck, mother and baby are now thriving. The care my daughter received under the maligned NHS was infinitely better than her birth in a major New York hospital. And still the USA
has one of the highest maternal death rates in the world.
So don’t be so quick to critize.
26
I like the doctor deciding to leave Britain - where the government has clearly said it intends to give EU citizens here the same rights as British ones - to go to that bastion of democracy and fairness: Dubai. Perhaps he will see first hand as an emergency doctor how they treat manual immigrant laborers there.
20
We had a severe shortage of nurses in the seventies. Whole floors of some inner cities' hospitals were shut down. In small community hospitals a single RN was on duty at night. Into that gap more delegation occurred LPNs and nurses aids were integrated. Then we began to see nurses and doctors from other countries fill the gaps: Australia, Canada, the Philippines. Veteran medics from the Vietnam war began the physician assistance program. But the real foundation of medical care has to come within the country. It will take time to recenter and reorganize their medical providers to those living within the UK but it can happen.
10
Britain's were sold a bill of good on Brexit.Perfect storm timing. Puzzles me why Parliment doesn't reverse. This is one of many problem to come.
4
They should do the same article about the foreign/immigrant/minority/LBGT community of health professionals working in Trump America after the election. As an African American female physician in rural Appalachia, it was a heartbreaking morning waking up to Trump’s victory. I cried myself to work. I struggled for months since, treating patients who probably support this man who rallies against my kind daily. I finally decided to leave and stop putting myself through the pain of taking care of those who probably would turn away from my immigrant parents and ignore or deny our many contributions to this country’s success.
42
There are not enough nurses or doctors in Britain to cover the needs of the hospitals and treatments afforded. And they have reduced funding for nursing programs, so they have fewer nursing applicants. Eventually maybe they can turn that around, but in the meantime its a bad situation and will get worse if the drain continues. And now they're going after countries that cost them alot more to bring those people in, and they will then have the pro Brexit folks whining about the Filipinos, Indians, etc.
I totally agree its uniformed (and uninterested in becoming informed, preferring to sit on their biases and resentments) people voting against their own best interests.
5
Britain population growth rate resembles that of a mature European country. Without Brexit and the general anti-immigrant sentiment on the rise, it will become another Japan. EU actually helps her in the long run. Her real problem is that she has failed to assimilate some of the newer immigrants - can't blame Britain entirely since the U.S. and other countries have similar problems but it is more pronounced in both England and Continental Europe.
Brexit could exacerbate her real problem
5
Correction: replace 'Without Brexit' with 'With Brexit' in the 2nd sentence
1
England is torn between London's Cosmopolitans and the nostalgic hinterland dreaming of an English England. Scotland and Ulster might eventually exit U.K. for EU. Hopefully, the English would do what Winston Churchill said Americans do: try everything before doing the right thing.
Let London, Scotland and Ulster remain in EU and England & Wales Brexit. All would still be loyal citizens of Her Majesty! The English genius is capable of piecing together such a scheme The Cosmopolitans would keep the money coming and the 'nativists' enjoy their way of life --- eat their cake and have it too!
7
the shortage isit is good for African and Caribbean nurses from the British Commonwealth. the UK has been stealing them for years from poor countries, which can least afford to lose them.
13
To those who voted for Brexit ... the saying "careful what you wish for" comes to mind.
14
Xenophobia is hell.
23
Brexiteers should have read Hume, Mill, Locke, Keynes, Pigou, Bagehot and Ricardo before jumping off a cliff, taking the rest of the soon-to-be disunited UK with them (Scotland and Wales won’t stay in the Union; as for Stormont ...).
After Brexit works its dismal magic (economics being the “dismal science”) Britain will totter before us like a gelded steer, as poor and backwards as Slovakia, or Ireland was between 1840 and the mid-1960s.
Idiots deserve no less.
13
I believe this a prime example of "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face."
16
This is perfectly fine. It is the expected and sought for realignment. It will take a few years to even out--the NYT needs to control its near constant hysteria. Now maybe actual British citizens can go to school, learn new skills, enter occupations and careers, and within their own country. Instead of advertising in foreign countries to come to England, they can start recruiting in their own country and communities and investing in their own citizenry.
15
Don't forget the British citizens who have had the opportunity to work anywhere in Europe. I skied with a British citizen, working as a ski host, and ski guide in Val D'Isere in March.
Britain won't do well, to be known to others as a xenophobic, narrow minded country, rejecting foreigners. Multi national banks are talking about reducing their staff in London, as they won't be able to do transactions as part of the EU. Car manufacturers in the UK are worried they won't have unfettered access to European markets after Brexit is finalized.
Talk about cutting off you nose, to spite your face.
10
You conveniently ignore the fact that there are no funds to train these home grown practitioners.
The great lie, put forth by the Brexiters, is that more funds would be allocated to the N.H.S. Untrue; less funding is the reality.
Further, the high quality of care was due to the cultural diversity of staff, each contributing their unique training and experience to British health care. Ironically the system delivered such quality care at a reasonable cost.
4
And what was stopping Britons from going to school, learning new skills and entering occupations and careers before Brexit? This constant complaining by those who do not go to school, learn a skill and enter an occupation, (and concurrently refuse to take lowly jobs) that immigrants are "taking all the jobs" is getting tired. While I don't wish anyone actual harm, it would do many Brexiters good to find themselves in need of a healthcare professional and not have one available. And what is it going to take for Britain's working/unemployed class to realize that the Conservatives will NEVER enact policies that will benefit them!
13
May and the Torres are damaging the UK immensely. They need to be brought down by the Labour Party-NOW! Once again, the conservatives are all greed and with Russian help.
7
UK shot themselves in the foot. London will not be the same without the rest of Europe
10
It is now clear that Brexit like the election of Trump is an example of Putin having a better plan for influencing public opinion and voting than did the British or American political parties.
Putin wants to destabilize western democracies. Misinformation during the Brexit campaign moved voters to vote agains their own self-interest and for Putin's.
We have no easy way of getting rid of Tump. But the British could have a a true education program on how damaging Brexit will be for the British economy and then hold another election.
In addition the British people should be informed of the Russian money that that flowed during the Brexit campaign.
19
The NHS has been a colossal failure. Under funded, understaffed, long wait times. Lack of innovation. Miserable experiment in socialized medicine. This is not what American Medicine needs or wants. Have fun trying to recruit the best and brightest at the salaries of bus drivers and civil service employees. Brexit has only brought this into sharper focus.
2
Post-residency doctors in the UK typically make between $100,000 and $200,000 dollars (specialists can make over $400,000) and don't have the 400k in debt that nearly all American doctors have. NHS salaries are broadly comparable to what HMOs pay in the US, except without the massive student loan debt. I don't think recruiting would be too hard.
25
Your’re wrong. The average primary care makes on the average 200k.some much more than that. The average orthopedic surgeon makes 600k,some making well into 7figures. Doctors from all of the world want to come here to work and train. Not to the NHS where the ethos is demoralizing
1
Perhaps you would love to have an American system where an ultrasound costs $900.
I have lost all confidence in the EU. It stood by, whistling, as the kingdom of Spain beat and repressed the Catalonian supporters of independence. Such an undemocratic institution cannot be trusted, and should not have its own law enforcement or military.
I certainly don't trust the UK government, either, but i understand why they want to leave the cruel European Union and try it on their own.
And for those who say it will hurt everyday Britons to go it alone....how do you explain the steep decline in living conditions in the UK over the last 20 years? Surely, the EU deserves its measure of blame?
2
NY Times should write a similar article about the US. Many doctors , nurses, and other healthcare professionals practicing in rural, inner city, and underserved areas (e.g. the VA system, geriatric medicine, etc.) are immigrants from other countries. US-educated and trained MDs (I am one) usually have their pick of where to practice and will not choose these options. In the US system, immigrant MDs must no only undergo re-training often but to practice in the US, must practice in an underserved area for a number of years. When I hear about how rural voters support and/or vote for anti-immigration policies, I bet they don't realize they are alienating their towns' medical providers. It also reinforces my decision -- as a young minority woman, albeit a US citizen -- not to practice in those geographic areas. My views are not only shaped by stereotypes: I chose to train in rural areas for part of my education.
34
NHS digital:-
Overall the NHS says there are around 3,200 more EU nationals working in the NHS than at the time of the referendum, as the size of the health service continues to grow.
2
The Brexit campaign bus that Boris Johnson campaigned in front of said "We send the EU 350 million (euros) a week.. let's fund our NHS instead. Vote Leave."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-nhs-350m-a-week-eu...
When it transpired , after the Brexit vote that this slogan was a blatant lie, in that it implied 350 million more would be spent weekly on the NHS, why did the Conservatives, under PM May keep Boris Johnson in their Government?
8
Brexit is a self-imposed gaping wound in the British national gut (or somewhere more private); they're going to NEED these doctors.
2
EU oversight of London's banks and financial institutions was in the way of the Russian oligarchs, Arab potentate families and other shady financiers who own more and more of London's prime real estate and use the London finance industry to launder their wealth. With the EU out of the way, the UK will turn into the world's biggest offshore haven, while the general population, and especially the pro-Brexit voters, will be left out in the cold. Boris Johnson's and Farage's Cayman Islands accounts must have received hefty deposits after the Brexit vote.
6
I am an American long-time resident in London (now a dual citizen). The brilliant doctors and nurses at King’s have saved my life, literally. I have been in complete awe of being treated in this hospital for a life-threatening disease and continue to be with many years follow-up. Not only is everything free, but the staff are incredible, and after all these years, one can be seen in clinic the day of - no questions asked. Cutting edge medications and world-leading clinical trials are all available - again at NO COST and little bureaucratic fuss.
So, I know King’s well, and I find this article is a bit one-sided. Many of the fabulous medical professionals who I have met are from across Europe, but they are also from around the world - especially the Commonwealth. Much like the great global city of London, they are a microcosm of the planet. Throughout it all, I have long wondered though, why aren’t there more English people employed especially in nursing jobs? I voted Remain, but the one thing we Remainers should acknowledge is that there is definitely a British under-class -- under-employed or in low-skill work -- which this society needs to better equip to be able to take these very high skilled jobs.
All that said, the NHS is a true gift. It breaks my heart every time I think about my native country’s healthcare dystopia. The system here achieves better outcomes, and has no profit motive, and it is that which will be the key to its resilience - it's etched into its DNA.
51
What you say about training Britons for high skilled work makes a lot of sense, so the statement below taken from the article is sad.
"In March, the government announced a plan to hurriedly train more British nurses. Yet in September, enrollment at nursing schools dropped, because the government also cut grants to nursing students."
5
There’s a shortage of doctors and nurses, good paying jobs (or should be) with high status. Why can’t the UK train enough of its citizens to perform them?
Is it really possible that London and the UK can’t supply themselves with health care workers? A developed nation, good education system, 65 million people? Seems screwy.
6
It’ll be interesting to see how successful the recruitment drive for NHS staff from Australia turns out to be, given than medical wages in the UK are substantially lower than in Australia, and there’s a limited private practice and private hospital sector. Junior and specialist doctors from the UK (or trained there) have been recruited by Australia for decades - depending on the state, UK-trained doctors comprise 7 - 16% of the medical workforce. They are valued by Australian health services across the country.
The UK health minister, Jeremy Hunt, and his antagonist approach to UK junior doctors, has boosted numbers of UK junior medical staff applying for the right to practice abroad. Winning back the hearts and minds of those who have fled for better pay, better conditions and great beaches may require a change in attitude on his part.
5
The results of a leave vote were entirely predictable and we are now beginning to see the impact of this farcical tragedy. It is going to get much worse. One need only look at the principal Brexit cheerleaders to understand why we have arrived at this point. Most of them have been in parliament for years and have never achieved anything of note. In other words they are failures. Johnson, Gove, Fox, Redwood and most of all Davis who is charged with negotiating the exit. But all of our politicians are at fault. The vote was advisory. Our best and brightest representatives know that leaving the EU is folly and yet they have gone along with the lie that this is the will of the people. The win was narrow and thus hugely divisive. As the chickens come home to roost there may yet be a groundswell for another vote. The evidence is mounting that this is an impending disaster. The pound down, inflation up. Valued professionals returning home. Companies looking for mainland European locations. Huge sums of money to be found and spent on creating arrangements to keep Johnny Foreigner out and perhaps most disastrously of all fears that the Irish troubles will flair again. There is no good news associated with Brexit for Britons but no doubt Vladimir Putin is amply satisfied with the coming chaos.
9
The world is now interconnected and we should be taking that into consideration when dealing with other countries.
2
It is a big transition, and as such takes time to adjust. Adults today may suffer due to the shortage, and their children can have an easier time to become nurses and doctors. It is silly to pretend or presume everything will be suddenly better or worse.
4
Another attempt by the media to make sure that Brexit fails? Pre-Europe the NHS was a big employer of people from the ex-colonies. When the UK joined Europe people from the ex-colonies were suddenly sent to the back of the queue and found it really hard to gets visas and jobs in the UK.
However, Europeans, particularly East Europeans, had a right to both travel to and find employment in the UK without restriction. "Without restriction" being the problem. The pro-Brexit position was that the UK wanted to be able to limit the numbers not restrict completely (as the media seems to want to imply).
Cameron (the UK PM) went to the EU to get restrictions put in place to prevent Brexit. The EU refused, pro-EU ran Project Fear seemingly blissfully unaware that the British hate being told what to do in that way.
Even worse, the media like to pretend that the figure on the side of the bus was some kind of election promise (apparently, unlike the public, they thought it was an election rather than a referendum). The (gross) figure was correct, you can fact-check it by looking at the government's own figure - in fact it was less than the true figure.
Beyond all of that, perhaps it is worth pointing out that Brexit is currently being negotiated. No-one knows what the final deal will look like.
Lastly, the UK wanted to decide the status of EU nationals in the UK from the beginning of the talks. It was the EU that refused to even discuss what would happen to their own nationals.
3
Imagine Britain needing to leave the European Union, I still find that impossible to imagine.
"Dr. Noël said he had now reached the final stage, acceptance.
For him, that means leaving Britain early next year. He has a new job at a hospital in Dubai."
I see a bit of a disconnect her. Dubai is a lot less like Europe that Britain, Brexit or not.
13
Dubai is a wealthy country and can afford to pay whatever it takes to get talent.
1
Yes, Barry B., but you can bet the money is good. And 'take it to the bank'.
1
You wanted to go back to"Little England?" You got it. Now deal with it as best you can.
10
Stupid is not just an American thing.
55
Interesting comment, inasmuch as one can almost guarantee the humpty trumpy contingent of voters is mostly descended from the white, Anglo-Saxon Protestants who voted for Brexit!
Brexit's affect on the National Health System of Britain gives a whole new emphasis to the phrase " they cut off their noses to spite themselves."
13
It's called creating employment for their own citizens; keeping your financial gains and not handing them over; regaining control of your own country's destiny.
4
Another in the NYT's occasional series of how big a mistake the voters of Great Britain made by choosing to exit the EU.
Personally, I am more interested why these highly trained medical professionals chose to leave their European countries for England. What is wrong with France, Germany and Austria that they did not want to work there?
As for Dr. Noel, he said according to your article “I feel very strongly European,”. For someone who feels so strongly European, he has chosen Dubai for his next home. To me, it sounds like well educated mercenaries.
19
yes you certainly do have to wonder. The continental Europeans have always been somewhat derogatory about the "Brits" particularly the French. So I do have to wonder why these people (as your reader from NY) left their own countries
Also the " we have been rejected boo hoo"
was a little precious for me and I expect a little more rationale from a doctor. Nobody rejected people from the EU generally. I believe the bone of contention was the masses of unemployed folks from Eastern Europe which was allowed into the EU before it was economically ready. So on the one hand it seems they are leaving in droves but later in the article the number of EU citizens arriving in the UK is still rising. As for the comments from this side of the pond, given the circumstances, its not a good look people !!!
3
I don't understand why it's so confusing. Why do people in the US move from LA to NYC? Why do they move from SF to Ft. Worth? In Europe, people (especially educated professionals) have long viewed the entire continent as their potential home. Working in a German hospital but want to get a more senior medical position? You can apply to hospitals all over Europe to get that promotion, not just your home country. Want to move from small town France to a big city after your residency? Apply to hospitals in London, Berlin, and Paris. Most highly educated people in Europe speak several languages and are at ease with foreign cultures.
6
lower wages.
2
"Dr. Auzinger, a lanky 51-year-old from Salzburg, Austria", isn't the only one who "speaks in Briticisms". Are American readers of the NYT supposed to know what a "jacket potato" is?
4
Baked potato.
10
Yeah, I know; I lived in the UK for 8+ years. But I often wonder, while reading my Economist and Private Eye, how those play in Peoria! And having heard talking heads on US television saying "Spot on!" ad nauseam I have become a guardian of American English.
4
Yes
5
We have to hope that Traitor Trump will be indicted, lest we go the way of the United Kingdom of Scotland and Wales, and Boris Johnson.
7
" The £1,500 he made would roughly cover the fee for a British passport."
that number must be a typo. it can not be $1900 for a passport.
3
Passport is a figure of speech here, we are talking about the cost of getting the citizenship
3
Clearly not a typo. A standard adult first passport or renewal costs £72.50. Perhaps he meant the sum of all fees to become a citizen?
3
Britain's loss will be the gain of many European cities.
7
Britain will not endure loss, it will burgeon in strength from within, it's own citizenry.
1
"Many fear they could lose rights, job security, pensions and access to free health care." Heck, we 'muhricans don't have any of that anyway! Let 'em go back to the Continent; like any other desperate third-world refugee, I'll be glad to take their place.
7
The pro-Brexit organizers were traitors to England as sure as the Trumpsters are traitors to our country.
22
Sadly, this article was written with an anti-Brexit agenda. Not mentioned is that there will be a tremendous drop in economic refugees seeking free health care (amongst other goodies). Those who work and contribute will be better served by the staff as opposed to the staff being stretched way too thin to cover people who have never (and never will) contributed.
16
Hmmm, your facts are addled. There are far MORE non-British Europeans WORKING in the NHS than they are being TREATED by it:
https://theconversation.com/the-truth-about-migrants-and-the-nhs-60908
So your take on Brexit is classic cutting off the nose to spite the face. Unfortunately, there won't be as many professionals around to treat your face because they've all been forced back to Europe.
With all respect, kindly get your facts straight.
22
How come Dr. Noel who according to your article feels "strongly European' is leaving England for a job in Dubai. What does that say about the healthcare system in France that he does not want to bring his skills to his home country?
9
It seems silly to not be able to train British people as nurses because of budget cuts, then spend more money trying to import nurses from Australia and the Philippines. The "drown government in the bathtub" crowd must be running amok in Britain just as badly as they are running amok in the US.
Brexit is trashing their country.
5
We don't look to the popular vote to decide (i) speed limits; (ii) the national interest rate; (iii) whether to approve specific medicines for public consumption; (iv) the construction of bridges.
That is because each of these things requires cool-headed expertise and a willingness to be guided by facts, not feeling.
The European Union is an incredibly complicated and intricate economic agreement, 49 years in the making. It is NOT "Would you recommend this burger to your friends, yes or no?"
The matter of EU membership should never, ever have gone to public vote. I mourn every day for my country, which, as the article so eloquently states, "no longer exists"...
A half-Brit
18
One has to ask why France with a population comparable to Great Britain is doing so well under the EU and GB is doing so poorly? Could it be British mismanagement?
5
A very detailed and informative article in the NYT.
The NHS already had one of the lowest number of hospital beds to population ratios in the industrialized world, even though the massive spike in the aging of the population was predicted a mere thirty years ago. One does not need to be medically qualified to understand that increasing age brings with it increasing infirmities and illnesses requiring ever higher levels of treatment.
Time to admit the NHS is a failing system, because the Tory government is blatantly engineering a situation in which the NHS has to fail.
We are talking about a government who has deliberately under funded the NHS. Seventeen years of Tory government ran it into the ground.
Once the tipping point has been reached it will launch a media blitzkrieg to convince the public that privatization is the only way forward that will meet the needs of people.
Theresa May is not worried about the decline of the NHS. She wants it to collapse so she can hand it to Trump and the US Healthcare Inc on the promised Fox Trade Deal. Hope the over 65s who voted Leave can afford the Private Health Insurance after Brexit.
Now with the idiotic Brexit vote and the full extent of the xenophobe, little England mentality on display, one is tempted to argue that the Brits deserve what they've got coming.
But then again I feel sorry for the people Remainers.
The biggest irony is that the EU nationals will be replaced by non-EU nationals further stoking the xenophobic fires.
9
If the pound has dropped 20% against the Euro does this not inform would-be immigrants against establishing themselves in the UK as well?
3
Why does the Times think they have the right to tell the people how to vote and if they do not vote
The people have spoken.
Trump won the election in the USA and Brexit is now the law in England
I don't like Trump just like some didn't like Obama.
You win some and you lose some.
When you win you have the power and when you lose you don't.
The Times has to accept that they do not have the right to constantly try to get Trump impeached for doing the things that got him elected.
The same goes for Brexit.
The people of England voted to for it.
The Times only gives us their version of the facts.
Yes some nurses who were working in hospitals in England. will go back to where they came from.
Probably not all.
The English are not stupid.
One way or another the people of England will do what is needed.
They will make exceptions to the rules in order to keep people who are essential to the institutions that provide health care to their country.
The work nurses use to do even in New York City are now being done by people who may not even have a high school diploma.
They do the things that do not require medical training.
Stuff like taking vital signs or feeding and cleaning the patient.
Most of the nurses who are leaving can therefore be replaced very easily.
With this article they want to convince us that the English people will suffer
because of Brexit.
They haven't convinced me because I know the Times only tells what they want us to know.
12
Thatcherite austerity measures, continued to this day, are the main reason the NHS is struggling. The politicians, and the wealth that they cater to, would have you think otherwise, for obvious reasons.
6
I am confused. If England is short of nurses and doctors, shouldn't the government put more money into education to training people? Why did they, the British government cut the funding? Now is an opportunity for British citizens to get educated in the fields they complained that foreigners took over.
125
what if British citizens simply have no interest in those jobs?
1
Who in their right mind would want to do 10 years of grueling, torture-like training for the equivalent of a $90,000/year job?
7
olu: then Brits would be highly unusual -- they don't want high paying, prestigious jobs doing meaningful, needed work -- in a field that only grows and where layoffs and unemployment are unknown?
What fields DO they wish to go into?
Isn't the real, larger question why the UK cannot train their OWN doctors and nurses from their native population? Great Britain is a sizable nation. Tiny CUBA had no problem filling their own needs for doctors, by simply education MORE DOCTORS. Ditto for nurses.
We do this in the US, too. We make medical educations expensive and exclusionary -- make it hard to get into medical school or nursing school -- very expensive -- deny many applicants -- refuse to have enough teachers and instructors -- THEN allow in thousands of foreign nationals (paying full freight, natch) who then NEVER LEAVE.
There is no reason for this, in either country. I know that many tens of thousands of Americans would LOVE to become doctors, nurses, nurse-practitioners and the like -- high paying stable jobs. But they can't get into the schools that would teach these this, and if they do -- the cost is staggering.
This is a problem with an easy solution.
14
Sometimes doctors and nurses recruited from abroad are valuable additions to society. As an example: my mother's doctor growing up. Czech Jew married to a Christian woman. They fled Prague, where he had been a professor, when the Nazis invaded the Sudetenland, and barely got out. They went to Canada as refugees and settled on the Prairies, where they probably experienced severe culture shock (and likely boredom) but were welcomed with open arms. He saved countless lives — including my aunt and uncle's (the latter twice).
There is strength in diversity and an inclusive society is a resilient society.
10
Can you not be so closed minded??? Why are there so many foreign medical graduates working in the USA as consultants? Because people want the best physicians to work for them. The UK pays physicians a good salary, better than most countries in the EU. The issue isn't training...its competition which is good.
4
I'm not sure if the fact, if indeed it is a fact, that so many foreign medical staff are consultants proves anything other than the firms providing these medical staff members are getting a cut off the top of the prices paid by the employers. This is true of most foreign IT consultants I understand. The firms providing the consultants have to make a profit, don't they?
The meanness of the Brexit leaders should have been evident immediately, but sadly was not. What a shame in such a vote, then to have to endure a Prime Minister so ill-willed as Teresa May.
12
Prime Minister May has guaranteed all EU citizens can stay in the UK.
2
Incorrect. She has stated that she WANTS to do so... depending on outcome of the negotiations.
1
"Prime Minister May has guaranteed all EU citizens can stay in the UK."
And yet the British Home Office are sending letters to foreign citizens, including a number of Americans, informing them that they must make immediate arrangements to leave the country or face enforced deportation. Many of the 'foreigners' have lived in the UK for decades, paid taxes, run businesses that employed people.
7
Who would want to???
3
Question: Who'd a thunk that a wage boom in EU8 and EU2 would bring folks home?
Answer: Not the folks who'd let a confidence interval undermine a fun writing exercise.
I️ wonder when the Brits will start recruiting from the USA. Ugly as the isolationism may be, at least there is the NHS.
1
The US also has a great many medical positions unable to be filled. Immigrants who were to take medical jobs are now banned or rejected. Other potential immigrants are fearful of the anti-immigrant atmosphere. There are insufficient Americans to fill the jobs. Incentives to provide care in less affluent areas are being eliminated, resulting in many having to drive long distances to get medical care... if there is an opening available.
Canada and other countries are reaching out with welcoming arms to medical professionals displaced by new US and UK rules and attitudes. Most immigrants would prefer to move to a stable country rather than one in crisis like the UK or the US.
Well, I see nothing wrong with individuals from the US coming to work on a Visa or whatever govts require. They might not like the pay though, I don’t know.
But people here are very alarmed at Brexit perhaps opening the door to US health companies hungry to make money out of the NHS. Liam Fox MP (in his second cabinet role having been sacked once years ago) is desperate to sign a big shiny US Trade Deal and already we have had Wilbur Ross mentioning health and agriculture as two areas they are eyeing. The public and opposition parties, however, are anxious not to let that happen on both fronts.
2
"at least there is the NHS."
For the time being.
2
It’s all mad! Utterly mad! People voted for this believing Great Britain would emerge from its “shackles” and look globally instead of at the EU! “Freeedom!”. Reality is we’ll turn into a tiny, poor, irrelevant backwater that is always the one everyone forgets to invite to a night out. Do you think as a favour you could do a regime change to rescue us from economic ruin and the crazed people in charge?
Oh wait, Trump, right. Maybe I’ll phone around first...
32
Just wait until the Trump GOP starts throwing out international MDs and RNs from the USA.
13
Trump has already started.
Many medical personnel who had obtained jobs in the US have been banned or rejected due to new immigration laws. Medical students were also rejected, resulting in more loss since those students often stayed to serve in the US after graduation.
Many of those medical personnel who are currently permitted to enter have chosen to go to more welcoming countries.
Those who are already here also face problems. Immigration officials are trying to get rid of as many foreigners as possible even though the foreigners are here legally. This month Trump is throwing out hundreds of thousands of people who came in 10 to 20 years ago...many of those are in the medical fields.
Our current vet visited his South American relatives; he then was unable to get back into the US for a few weeks due to law changes.
6
The 40,000 number is a vast exaggeration. The actual number for nursing and midwives is around 6,000, see http://www.jobs.nhs.uk, which is roughly the difference between EUs leaving and UKs joining. Makes perfect sense, in fact it shows that the NHS has kept up extremely well with replacing EUs, and will get the difference down to zero before Brexit happens.
If anything, this report confirms the role of NHS as a political tool of Labor, role not too different from Obamacare in the USA. And also the NYT’s tool by extension, who’ve been at it ever since the Brexit vote got scheduled last year, issuing opinions and fake news reports, all perfectly timed to help Labor. Not surprising, given the chief editor is British himself, and too obviously anti-Brexit.
Next time, try harder. One credible link to back up your number is enough. Today it is jobs.nhs.uk. Bah.
9
The NHS has 30,000 vacancies, of which 11,500 are nursing (as of July this year, up 16% over last year) according to NHS Digital.
https://www.digital.nhs.uk/catalogue/PUB30033
Wow, it's amazing how you can willfully misread data to further your argument. Try re-reading the whole thing, don't cherry-pick only the ones that suit you. FYI, the non-British NHS staff (doctors, specialists, nurses and clinicians) are here because there weren't enough qualified British staff to begin with. Additionally, not enough British students are entering the field to replace those EU staff who are already leaving or will be leaving soon. A whole lot of the British staff are also leaving the NHS and going into private health care as they have been constantly overworked because of the staff shortages.
7
Not all vacant posts are continuously listed for recruitment on NHS jobs.
1
Is there really any point to even discussing this article with people who close their eyes, put their hands over their ears, and run in circles screaming? So many still don't seem to understand why Brexit happened. It was racists. It was an evil Russian conspiracy. How can the most [self-proclaimed] "tolerant", "open minded" people still have no clue? A doctor who admits he reviles treating people in 'leave' areas. A nurse with a stagnating career who hasn't received a pay increase in four years, despite brexit. Clearly they came because of opportunities not in their home countries. Yet, they shun British citizenship. They have no desire to be British. Europe will never be a malleable super-nation. There is no common language, no common culture. Do not expect countries you visit/adopt to align to your values. People knew Brexit wouldn't happen. People knew Trump could not be president. People know that the EU project is workable and won't collapse.
5
There is a huge amount of British people who live in EU countries as well and have no desire to become German or Spanish. In Spain, there are large areas where English is the main language and British retirees rely on the Spanish national medical system for free care (and their fate is far from clear due to Brexit). Europe has historically not had the assimilation based immigration policy that the US has, at least for people from other European countries. The EU free movement system is designed so that people and expertise can move across borders without unnecessary hindrance, and for the most part it's working just fine. Or do you prefer that the UK suffer a nursing and doctor shortage?
3
In reference to the Nurses’ pay: The reason she has not had a pay rise is because, as with many public sector workers, it was frozen by Government as part of their austerity measures! It is not down to any incompetence or lethargy on her part at all.
2
There one more thing Brexit will deprive the Britons of: Public health care in EU countries. A EU citizen can freely choose to get public health at no additional cost everywhere in the EU. Time and again the British public jealt system sent Britons to German hospitals for overcoming bottlenecks.
5
It goes both ways. For some rare diseases, Europeans can not get the appropriate treatment in their home countries so travel elsewhere in Europe. British patients will be unable to get care in EU countries, and EU patients will be unable to get care in Britain.
2
EU patients won't be able to get care in Britain ... did they ever?! No loss, really. They'll just go to Germany, France, Belgium ... I am not sure how this goes "both ways".
1
Indeed, a European cooperation in medicine takes place and in some rare cases Continental European found their treatments in the UK. These were few exceptions, though. My perception is that the Britisch health system does nit have as a good reputation in Europe as have the Austrian, French, and German health systems. Admittedly, the reputation of the Italian health system is even worse than that of the Britisch. Interestingly, especially for people living in the USA, you find good health systems in those European countries where the state works well and keeps with the European tradition of a social market economy - what the UK has abandoned since Mrs Thatcher's government in the 80s of the 20th century.
The irony here is so painful: the small-minded older Britons in my family believed they would "save" the NHS by leaving Europe, but instead signed its death warrant. They acted out of xenophobia towards Polish and Romanian nurses, and now will have to accept Indian and Philippino nurses. I'm still in the fourth stage of Brexit grief.
20
Our experience here is that nurses from Philippines are exceptional.
4
Reminds me of Katrina affect on New Orleans. Many older white people were thrilled that Katrina washed away housing where poor blacks lived...got rid of that problem: Many blacks permanently moved away at that point.
Hotels and restaurants and other service companies were slow to open since they did not have staff willing to work at the pre-Katrina rates. Repair to buildings was very slow since there were few workers. Years afterwards people would hop out of their cars when they spotted a construction crew, hoping to finally get someone to fix their house.
Hispanics began to move in some distance away and commuted to jobs in NO. Although many Hispanics may have been illegal, and many knew little English, and many were just learning their jobs, the New Orleans residents were thrilled to have workers again.
5
Why am I not surprised The Times makes no mention of the extraordinary cost of housing in London as a factor in people leaving The City, not just Drs. and nurses, we would not want to mention the thousands of empty luxury condos belonging to Chinese, Russians and over paid bankers who have taken housing away from average Londoners, it’s to similar to what’s happening in the other bastion of liberty, free market and trickle down economics, America. No mention either of the tens of thousands of refugees that fled to Britain thanks to the Bush, Cheney and Blair war built on lies for the benefit of,friends in the Middle East. Brexit happened for the same reason as Trump and many other political swings around the world, the average Londoners just like the millions of forgotten “deplorables” in America are sick of the status quo as all the money for forty years has gone to the select few. When three people in America have more wealth than sixty four percent of the rest of us, probably no different in London, as a handful of international oligarch from Russia, China, India etc. have all the wealth it’s only a surprise that much worse than voting or voting with your feet has not occurred. People are sick of the lies from our politicians on both sides of the aisle and both sides of the pond. The constant chatter about Russia prompted an article on Clinton reminding us of the $145,000,000.00 Russians contributed to the Clinton Foundation/RE Uranium One. Dirt all around.
6
Brexit is horrible.It will be bad not just the Brits but the world.
However, Theresa May is no Trump.The Brexit campaign talked about continuing skilled immigration and encouraging free trade.No Brexiter has encouraged white supremacists.There are parallels but do not compare Brexit with America First.Not quite the same.
5
Sounds like the USA in a few years.
2
With the way European elections are going, perhaps leaving the European Union might have been the smartest thing the UK ever did.
1
That's just jealous talk. The Euro is way up on the dollar. Britain leaving the EU was dumb - period.
2
The point above is nonsense re euro dollar.
In the last five years, the dollar has appreciated in value relative to both the pound and the euro. These are complicated issues and the economic factors do not necessarily reflect social issues.
"The range of opportunities and responsibilities is much greater here,” she said. In Germany, many of the things she has been doing — assessing blood results, adjusting treatment plans for transplant patients — would be handled by a doctor"
Wow. Not only does NHS have nurses making treatment decisions, they are importing nurses to do it. But, in the post modern world, there is no difference between cultures, countries, and now, apparently, health providers. Globalism indeed.
4
This isn't unique to the UK. In the US, PAs and NPs have replaced physicians for many types of care. It's not cultural, it's just a function of a medical system that doesn't have the proper resources to function.
3
Skills have steadily been downgraded by the Dept of Health to skimp on money. Make Nurses take on some (and I stress some) Doctor tasks - officially or unofficially - and offload basic Nurse duties (observations etc) to Health Care Assistants. It’s one reason why numbers of Drs & Nurses are falling.
My mother works as an experienced Nurse Practitioner at our local surgery. Mainly of her roles are the same as a General Practitioner (GP - a Dr). Yet those with “Dr” as a title get paid much more.
This Nurse works in a Transplant ward. I suspect she’s received extra training for that role and thus more responsibility. I was in a transplant ward once and the Transplant Nurses, while few in number, were all more skilled and more experienced, with specialist training, than the Nurses doing the day-to-day running of a ward.
3
"They" get paid much more because they've had to go through many more years of education and training. As a doc, I work with nurses and NPs but I don't claim to be a nurse since I wasn't trained in that way so I'm not sure why nurses claim to be MDs. On the surface, yes, it seems like the same job for minor ailments but when push comes to shove, with complex patients and situations, MDs have more training to deal with them. I supervise NPs and some are excellent but others I worry about. Part of the off-loading of duties to NPs, PAs, etc. is because the healthcare system does not want to pay for the care docs can provide.
If someone wants to be a doc, become a doc then! Don't try to pass yourself off as one.
2
These British hospitals are very much like our hospitals, staffed by doctors and to a lesser degree nurses of varying ethnicity. On recents visits sick family members I encountered physicians and nurses from India, Pakistan, Peru, Austria, Egypt. Argentina and Ireland to mention a few of the foreign nationals that made up hospital staffs. We simply do not have enough slots in our universities to provide all the trained professionals we need. When I speak to them they all voiced personal doubt about the anti-immigrant fever that has emerged in our political dialogue.
Someplace in the troubles gripping post Brexit Britain there is a message for us.
13
The one thing that doesn't really make sense here that people are leaving prior to any changes actually coming into place. Reading this article would almost make one assume new laws have come into place baring European workers from staying or entering the UK. At present the legal status quo remains and Europeans can continue working and living as they please. The government and opposition have also made clear they intend to negotiate a deal that allows the European workers already here to stay and work; something they already noted would have been set in stone if Brussels werent solely concerned with agreeing a big fat divorce bill prior to discussing anything else... The EU should be focus of scrutiny here as they seemingly don't seem to like democracy and fair negotiation at all.
3
Given the rise in hate crimes and intolerance in general why on earth would they want to stay even if their status were normalised:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/17/world/europe/uk-hate-crime-brexit-att...
5
In which we learn again that you cannot run a modern economy based on isolationism, a denial of essential economic and technological interconnection, endless attacks on immigrants, and a lunatic refusal to get off the couch, get a real education, and go do the work yourself, if you don't want others doing it.
The sad fact is, most of the people yelling about immigrants taking they jobs couldn't get through nursing school with a shotgun-toting angel standing right behind them, let alone med school.
Then too, the jobs in a car factory are increasingly done by robots.
And the excellent manufacturing and technical jobs they COULD do are far away. And they don't want to leave home. And they don't want to learn.
So, Brexit and Trump and Marie LePen, as though any of that would help. It'll help, all right: it'll speed up their impoverishment, and let the people they elect steal more faster.
14
Not wanting "immigrants,"is an easy statement to make.In all sorts of ways. To write.To say.To show.Not differentiating between WHO a person is, their self identity, as well as identities imposed by others,and WHAT a person has done, is doing, and may yet be capable of doing, if enabled and not blocked- his/her inner resource associated behaviors and abilities remains a marker of ever-present willful ignorance.By many.Powerful individual and systemic stakeholders.As well as complacent and coopted ordinary folk.Family members.Neighbors.Friends.Students at school.Colleagues at work.Minions looking for easy answers to complex issues.Some of which are not resolvable. People not adequately prepared to meet the challenges of necessary questions, and the demanding quests inherent in them.How many of us are prepared to contend,daily, with the realities of uncertainties which never cease?At whatever our age and other states of BEING! Of unpredictability being the operating DNA of daily coping. adapting and functioning.With no total control. Ever.No matter what our levels and qualities of our efforts, over time.At best,we are "gifted" with opportunities to do the best that we can-in good enough ways-in each situation.Randomness and unexpected outcomes follow."Immigrant" is the current, and latest, descriptive- label-answer given as an inadequate explanation for what is "wrong."As if "leaving" will "right" IT."Happenings," cause and effect and being associated all co-exist; unlike US.
1
Why do immigrants seek employment in the US and the UK in droves? Is it the higher standard of living than in their own countries? Less dysfunction? Safety and stability? My guess would be all of these things plus the US, despite having institutionalized impediments to upward mobility including racism, sexism, and classism, is still more meritocratic than many other countries who deal with government corruption on a scale that would give most Americans the Vapors. The problem seems that many US and UK nativists seem to resent immigrants coming to benefit from this relatively secure system that they did not help to build. They view it as cutting the line in the path to prosperity. I understand the NHS is on a shoestring budget, but supporting alternative ways to train native staff would surely go a long way toward easing the anti-immigrant backlash.
2
Pandora: Basically you state that if there were no immigrants in jobs that “natives” want filled by “natives” there would be less immigrant backlash.
There are insufficient number of trained “natives” (bizarre terminology considering immigrants decimated America’s true native Americans). Do you propose jobs be left unfilled to stop immigrants from “abusing the system” by doing useful jobs? There are already so few medical personnel in rural areas that special incentive programs were created; primarily immigrants filled these jobs...now there are fewer immigrants in medical fields so rural America has fewer doctors.
In addition, those who despise foreigners are often including many American citizens. Citizens come in many colors and came from many different countries.
Someone demanded a white American citizen for a doctor at an ER. She was told that she could come back with her bleeding foot in two days...that doctor wanted weekdays, not weekends.
I presume you believe that your ancestors came over for the right reasons, that they deserved the benefits of America. Modern immigrants doing jobs America needs to have done is apparently greedy and horrific to you.
Im afraid this article does not address the reason for chronic over subscription of the NHS. Unchecked mass migration of Europeans, both skilled and unskilled, to go with the global open border years of Blair have bloated the countries population to unforeseen levels, particularly in London. Finally this article does not mention how unattractive it for young Britons to become medical practitioners due to the high debt incurred (nothing like the US but rest of Europe is free) and very low pay and long hours after graduation.
11
You are correct that low pay is one of the main reasons that the NHS is under staffed. But you are wrong about why it is over-subscribed. The NHS doesn't work because the private health market is so much smaller than comparable countries, and Britons believe that making a co-pay is tantamount to a crime against humanity. The government spends a comparible amount to other countries that have universal health care, but it is the British public's refusal to put their hand in their own pocket and take responsibility for their own health which is ultimately to blame.
Mostly nonsense, educate yourself, here e.g.
http://theconversation.com/the-truth-about-migrants-and-the-nhs-60908
tldr: Migrants are younger thus healthier than the local population and thus consume fewer NHS services.
6
Nationalism is clearly on the rise. People in the UK seem to want it. We all are living fake news fantasy environments. For a decade or more, one could see this coming, as the Tory press barons, bankers, the elite, self-interested lobbying groups and Tory MP's wanted capitalism pure and simple, like Dickens' Hard Times and harked back to...'when Britain ruled the waves'. It can be a lucrative business these days if one is a politician, one's ego gets inflated and one starts to believe in one's own self-importance. Too many UK institutions look back. The BBC news is average to poor. Politics has become more ideological. The House of Lords is an unelected body. The honor system their is ridiculous. The north of England is divided from the south of England. Oxford University graduates are among the leading Tory MP's campaigning for Brexit. What does that say about their intake, their diversity, their self-interest, their intellect, their social-moral ideals and their elitism? The privilege classes in the UK dominate policies of all kinds and have done for centuries. More and more families in the UK rely on charities and food banks. Its state education is socially inept and does not have enough resources like the NHS. How many millions of pounds have already been spent on Brexit?
5
The AMA (American Medical Association) is to blame for many of the healthcare problems in the United States.
The AMA restricts the number of students who can attend MedicL School, thereby artificially limiting the number of doctors in the U.S.
This manipulation of the number of doctors drives healthcare costs higher; and because there are fewer doctors, the cost of a medical education has been driven even higher.
As with many professions, if the market for doctors was allowed to be free, there would be a sufficient number of doctors so healthcare costs, and the cost of a medical education would also be lower.
The AMA’s claim that by restricting the number of students who attend medical school results in a higher quality of care is just plain false. We all know many students who are more than qualified to be doctors, but they either can’t get into medical school, or they can’t afford medical school. The AMA perpetuates this lie becaue their primary goal is to keep the income of its members as high as it can be.
If the AMA would stop restricting the number of students who could attend medical school, there may actually be a return to the idea of a person entering the profession because they care more about healing and less about the money. Imagine That!
6
I know a physician who has a very intelligent daughter who couldn't get into a Medical program in the US. So she has gone to start her Medical degree, in Australia. At some point she will return to the US to do a Residency and we will be lucky to have this highly trained MD in the USA.
Under trump care, I now pay 30% more for my insurance. $823 monthly for an individual. Next year, I'll have to decide if I can afford healthcare at all.
So in the US the rich will have access to great healthcare and in Britain they will have access to healthcare for free where the providers are spread too thin.
8
I wonder how the people in the coal country of Britain feel about this. In the 1970's and 1980's they experienced a similar type of retrenchment while London ultimately thrived. Since a majority of the Brexit "yeas" came from the northern parts of the country maybe this article takes a London-centric point of view.
3
It has been suggested that the strong pro-leave vote in the former industrial regions, was down to the blue collar 'left behind' generation/classes sending a message to the, London based, Metropolitan elite that they'd had enough.
3
Dramatic illustration that opportunity is not enough to attract and keep foreign talent. Acceptance and dignity are even more important.
11
It seems job stability is key. How can one have a future if one’s present is forever shaky. Of course, it is definitely emotionally wounding to think s country voted to get rid of its European citizens.
We understand. In the USA, our clueless group elected trump. England’s ridiculously voted for Brexit.
I sympathize greatly. Your European workers work hard. Anti-immigrant sentiment is ignorant and pointless.
6
sometimes, the masses need to learn things the hard way!!
13
While the mainstream media does it constantly, it's economically illiterate to talk about a labour shortage.
In any given local market at a given place and time, the supply and demand of goods and services is a function of price. Want more, more highly trained, more experienced cardiologists to offer cardiology services in Chelsea? Then pay more for their services. The more that consumers in Chelsea are willing to pay for cardiology services, the more that cardiologists and specialist cardiology nurses will compete amongst each other to provide those services in Chelsea. Further, the more that medical specialists and non-cardiology nurses will retrain or switch into practicing cardiology in Chelsea from, say, pediatrics in Paddington. Finally, the more that non-medical personnel everywhere will flock to Chelsea to pursue the provision of cardiology services – once they have the necessary training, qualifications skills and experience.
All the above depends on the price signals for a given good or service in a given local market at a given time. The UK taxpayer, however, does not want to pay increased taxes to pay for the NHS. Consumers of the NHS do not want to pay increased fees at the point of purchase. As the UK population ages and gets fatter and sicker, UK consumers want to consume more sickness care. Moreover, they want the latest technology, diagnostic tests, equipment and therapaies. All, of course, as cheaply as possible.
6
Training medical providers is expensive and a national health system like Britain's underfunds that. Here in the US as we begin a move toward universal health coverage we need to learn from the Brexit mistake. Once we devalue the end delivery point of healthcare: nurses and doctors, we begin a downward spiral.
13
The devaluation is almost complete. Physicians and nurses are "providers" while the top 10 administrators in any hospital rake in mid 6-figure salaries at the least. No one I know in medicine is recommending to their children to go into anything medically related. Giving up years of your life for medical training is the worst thing an intelligent, dedicated, caring person can do these days. One can just as easily be a "provider" in some other line of work with less hassle and more respect from customers and coworkers.
10
I read this when it first appeared online and felt so sad that the law of unintended consequences has hit again.
The people that voted for Brexit simply didn't do their homework, allowing "feel good" emotions of rage dictate their votes.
I attended a lecture by the head of the British Consulate, New England Division in Boston on the topic of Brexit. She was a career diplomat, and had voted against the law. But she did make the point that many who had been pro-Brexit were regretting their choice as the final time for implementation in April, 2018 approaches.
This article does say that the allegation that pulling from Europe would help the NHS was simply not true, another case of false promises now becoming fully apparent to a beleaguered health service.
I feel for the British, as well as all the good nurses and medical personnel who feel they must leave to protect their own interests in the EU.
The need for voters to be informed simply is repeated day after day, both there and here, as the reality sets in that their votes were based on bad faith promises.
37
No raise in four years. There is more to this story than Brexit, which hasn't even begun implementation, and whose specifics are not known.
One could infer underfunding of the NHS affected decision-making not only of practitioners (i.e. no raises), but also of Brexit voters (i.e. money for our beloved NHS instead of Brussels).
58
Uninformed and ignorant backlash against an integration and globalization that is overall beneficial to the countries that engage in it.
15
For a continent devastated in the past 100 years by two of the of the most horrific industrial wars humanity has ever seen--both fueled by irrational nationalism--the EU was the shining hope for the future. Germans working side by side with Czechs, Brits and Poles, it was working. Until Brexit, that is. How can the Nativists possibly think a regression to the dismal past is somehow desirable?
357
Funny, I thought both of those wars had something to do with England resisting a Europe dominated by Germany?
Britain isn’t leaving Europe! They voted, in a democratic system, to politely LEAVE a political union that many are voicing disapproval of. This NYT article, and responses such as yours are, frankly, hysterical.
Much like the campaign to remain, comments such as yours fail to address
9
And the main Brexit argument was a lie, as addressed in the article. Brexit would not have won without lying. Sort of like Trump and his nativist message.
9
Let's all watch RJ comment from the safety of Brooklyn about something he's not affected by while making an absurdly simplistic remark about two world wars.
2
The main problem with the EU is that people you didn't vote for or have the chance to vote for make decisions which play a role in everyone's day-to-day lives. Sure, immigrants, bankers, or anyone else sitting on the 50-yard-line of life want things to remain as they are, unchanged, in amber. However, Democracy makes it so that these people don't get to make the rules, as much as they would like to.
The British are resilient and they'll soon streamline the issues and things will be back to normal for most everyone, save a few folks on the 50 who may be moved to the end zone seats.
7
The problem with your statement is your lack of knowledge of how the European Union works. A pack of knowledge you share with the majority of the Uk population that voted to leave.
The EU is not undemocratic. You vote for an EU MEP, your European Commissioner is appointed by your local democratically elected government. The head of the European Commission is elected by the European Parliament.
Any major legislation changes go through the European Parliament. The cruxes of the issue is that the British never bothered to vote seriously in their European Elections. The UK political establishment has used Europe as a sin eater for the country for the last 20 years. Conflated the idea of the Union with the idea of the ECJ, which are two related but separate entities.
Everything sorts itself out in the end. But this is going to be a painful, humiliating but obviously necessary lesson.
13
The article shines a light on the possible outcomes when people's concerns aren't being addressed, and when there are few alternatives for the people to choose. Of course the people are expected to deal with their concerns by being willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good instead of holding elected officials accountable, but in this case they said enough is enough. Brexit or Trump may not have been the best choice, but it was up to others to make that clear. That obviously didn't happen in the US or in the UK.
In the US the 'Democratic firewall' had voted Democrat for years, and expected some improvement in their lot after voting for Obama 'the change agent' twice, but when that didn't happen and the outcome looked increasingly worse they voted for someone who spoke about their concerns. It is unfortunate that he probably won't be able to do anything either, as the remaining alternatives look grim.
5
When people vote their bigotry instead of their conscience, this is what they get.
2
The UK had their own Trump in Boris Johnson, Teresa May, and others. Make Britain great again by leaving the European Union. Brexit has worked about as well for the UK as the Trump policies have for us.
Unintended consequences which should have been evident. Ironically, the uninformed voter, both here and in the UK will be the victims of the irresponsible policies.
23
It's ridiculous that such a momentous move hinged in a simple referendum. For all of the ills of the U.S. system, at least we don't change our Constitution based on a one-shot vote.
If Prime Minister May were a true leader, she'd call another referendum to see if the public is still behind Brexit. If the decision is reversed, the U.K. could proceed accordingly. If it's reaffirmed, the country could at least move ahead with confidence that this is a truly popular move.
14
So just keep voting on the issue, until the side that you wish to see win, wins?
The vote to join EU was good though, right?
1
I have worked in the Financial sector, “the city”, in London. This is another sector that could potentially be badly impacted: According to the City of London corporation's own research, 32% of workers in the City were born outside the UK, with 12% born in the EU. These workers hold proportionally more senior positions in businesses.
And then there is this from the Evening Standard:
In total it is estimated that around three-quarters of London's 400,000 workers in the restaurant, bars, pubs and hotels sector are from abroad.
Mike Gottlieb, president of the Restaurant Association, said: "This is England, everyone wants a British waiter but really they are very few and far between - it's just not going to happen for the foreseeable future. We are all in thrall to the foreign workers - at the moment the vast majority are east Europeans, who have a very good work ethic. If they all went home most restaurants would close tomorrow.
Obviously the vast majority of Londoners voted against Brexit, but they were outnumbered by the people outside the big cities, who are greatly benefiting from London's economic prowess but are too stupid to understand that the UK's economy is highly dependent on foreign workers.
20
another perspective on this would be that the rest of the UK got fed up with the over inflating of London to the detriment of the region's. it created the kind of resentment vote leave found easy to exploit. more equitable distribution across the UK of industries might have avoided the huge gap between was is effectively a city state and everywhere else in Britain.
2
There are plenty of unemployed Brits -- one in 5 are on the dole!
But you can't get them to wait tables? Are you now going to say that being a WAITER is so hard, requires so many degrees, that NO BRITISH PERSON can ever dream of a job as a waiter?????
If restaurants cannot survive with the hiring of native citizens instead of foreigners -- they SHOULD close.
4
The oldest and most tired canard of all. The entire EU project is based on the premise that people are too stupid to vote so decisions should be made by those who know better. Unfortunately for them we are not which is why Leave won.
2
This is a very skewed view of the current British battle to rationalize the NHS by putting the proper professionals in the right positions as opposed to medicine answering all calls.
3
Anti-immigration fever is gripping many countries today including our own, it is based on ignorance and when results from it start to impact healthcare it is criminal. When a countries' healthcare starts to go down the tubes you know that country is in trouble, look at us here, our system is one of the most expensive systems in the world and many people here are being shuffled to the door and we are heading down the tubes fast. I miss the days when civility and intelligence ruled decision making, looks like that is long gone having descended down to ignorance and fear in many countries including ours.
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I can't help but feel the perverse glee of schadenfreude as the Law of Unintended Consequences begins to claim Brexit-supporting victims.
I suspect these feelings will be reciprocated from across the pond soon. The comeuppance facing Trump-supporters on our own shore will be equally devastating. And it will claim never-trumpers and never-brexiters alike.
8
Don’t forget the Russian connection! Putin was all too happy to undermine the EU by undermining the UK via meddling with the Brexit vote.
So too the US.
Same with Germany’s recent vote and the undermining of Merkel and thus the EU.
Consider Spain and the current Catalan crisis, also showing evidence of Russian meddling.
The West is in danger!
7
The NYT’s headline is “The Nurses and Doctors Leaving London”. But buried in the copy is “the number of European Union staff in the health service grew slightly in the year after the referendum”. And “between June 2016 and June 2017, 12,748 joined [the NHS] and 9,854 left”. Indeed, since the Brexit vote there’s been an overall rise in EU immigration to the UK, and even an 80pc rise in EU citizens wanting UK citizenship.
No doubt EU health workers are cautious amid the current uncertainty, and maybe that explains their lower net rate of immigration. But equally the UK is certain to do everything it can to encourage the import of such in-demand personnel.
Let me add that I was an ardent “Remainer”, and bitterly regret the Brexit vote. But the NYT and some commenters here who characterize the vote as driven by xenophobia might ask themselves how the average American would react if NAFTA turned into the North American Union (as the European Economic Community turned into the EU) , with the US government and Supreme Court routinely overruled by a supranational body whose stated determination was to forge an “ever-closer union”.
17
I could not agree more. I was a brexiteer but I voted because of undemocratic nature of the EU (also the overall political atmosphere), the jurisdiction of the courts and the fact my mum is a nurse in NHS and was also a brexiteer due to her inability to adequately serve her patients because there are too many. If the govt cannot control who comes in and out how is it meant to plan. I sit here in SF tearing my hair out at this article.
1
Net Arrivals - Departures
2015 6,542
2016 2,594
That's a 56% reduction by my calculation and seems hardly a cause for celebration
1
A fantastic analogy - thank you!
So Brexit is a self inflicted nightmare? In which case presumably the USA should be part of a pan American union from Canada to Argentina? US law made in Mexico by an unelected and unacountable Commission? A Supreme Court in Panama and sham Parliaments in Brazil and Argentina?
Those of us who voted Leave did so to restore the sovereignty and democracy that had been stolen without our consent. Nothing to do with immigration except that the liberal press like to represent all Leave voters as racist. We are not. However the British immigration system makes it almost impossible for a US citizen to settle and work here whilst any EU citizen is free to come without even finding a job. Does not sound fair to me.
19
"A European Commissioner is a member of the European Commission. Each Commissioner within the college holds a specific portfolio and are led by the President of the European Commission. In simple terms they are the equivalent of national ministers. Each European Union member state has the right to a single commissioner (before 2004, the four largest states—France, Germany, Italy and the United Kingdom—were granted two) and appoints them in consultation with the President."- Wikipedia.
So, doesn't each national government appoint their commissioners? And aren't those governments elected by the people? I guess I'm confused.
3
Brexit: Cutting off your nose to spite your face. Great Britain's next step into oblivion. Soon to be a 2nd world country. I guess the Brits don't understand why we haven't had a European war in 70 years instead of the normal 20 year cycle. It isn't the EU that is causing Britain's problems. It is the Brits refusal to fix their own problems.
8
70 years of peace has everything to do with NATO formed in 1949 and nothing to do with the EU formed in 1992. The 1957 Treaty of Rome comprised only 6 European countries.
One thing for sure England will be around a lot longer then the EU
8
England eh? You mean the sporting umbrella organisation for football, rugby, and cricket?
7
I guess we will see. I don't recall a vibrant England prior to their Entrance into the EU. I remember a declining industrial nation full of strikes and strife. Prior to their entrance there was absolutely nothing cool about Britania. Conservatives think in was Thacher, in reality is was oil and the EU. Now they will have neither,
2
Anybody want to bet that the right wing radio blames this on the NHS?
4
An interesting but sadly deeply flawed piece of thinking on the part of Ms Pardela. Why? Because the British Government has bent over double to let everyone from the European Union who has settled here in the UK that Brexit does not mean goodbye to Europe. It only means goodbye to the EU - and that is a very different thing. Accordingly, several million people from the EU will stay in the UK because the Government says they can be a part of Britain for as long as they wish. No-one but no-one is forcing them out. So many blather about the campaign bus saying why not give the health service the money we save from leaving the EU. It was a campaign. It was a slogan. And doubtless many many billions WILL be diverted to the NHS from the billions we send each year to the EU. We have sent them £187 BILLION net - since 1973. But we are not in the Euro, so we have no influence on Eurozone policy; we have no wish to be part of a United States of Europe; we want OUR parliament to be sovereign, and to have control of OUR laws, through our own Supreme Court. We shall remain in NATO and be Europe's biggest contributor, as we have for decades. We shall also be good neighbours, helping Europe defeat terrorism. But the EU is a failed experiment. It is both a highly secret form of government and it is corrupt and has not had its financial books cleared by financial auditors for many many years. We voted by a majority for FREEDOM. Is that too much to ask?
10
“Interesting and deeply flawed” is certainly how I would characterize YOUR comment. With your Brexit vote you told EU immigrants you didn’t want them. You took away their future security. Now they’re voting with their feet, and you blame THEM for their reaction to the crisis YOU caused. As your NHS continues to suffer from increasing staffing shortages, I bet you’re going to keep blaming others for recognizing your unwelcome, yes? Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. Enjoy your “freedom”.
13
I do not live in the U.K. and do not pretend to know exactly what happens there. But I do live in the U.S. and see what is, similarly, happening here.
"No-one but no-one is forcing them out." Can't speak to this directly in terms of UK policy, but for individuals who emigrated that are involved, the Brexit vote was clearly a vote against their presence, and they know how they are officially now resented. Why would anyone stay where they are not wanted?
"It was a slogan". The incorrect numbers were purposely placed within the "slogan". That makes it a lie. Also, there are unaccounted for economic benefits that come with EU membership, that should have been reflect to balance that number. We have had our fill of lying "slogans" here.
"We voted by a majority". Maybe so. A majority of voters, but not a majority of the populace. With 20/20 hindsight, I would bet that there, like here, the outcome would be different if the (then) complacent majority had bothered to vote. Today they would be horrified and far more aware of untended consequence brought about by the voting minority.
Wish WE could have a re-vote.
12
As much as I enjoyed the deploying of that Churchillian "shall," not even close to reality.
It's bizzare that a non-binding referendum that was poorly understood by those who voted in favor of it (and turnout was low as well) has put the whole UK on a track to tear apart large parts of its economy with no clear benefit for anyone involved.
The obvious solution is another vote - more informed this time - and I think turnout would be very high. There is no reason for the country to march forward into self-inflicted harm and economic dispruption.
8
Fortunately this is not how these things work. Elections have consequences and they are not simply overruled by some San Francisco (or New York city) elite.
1
That's right, just keep voting until you get the outcome desired.
2
So Brexit is causing immigration to drop and for some immigrants to leave? I thought that was one of e objectives of the Brexit campaign. If so, the NYT should be touting it as a success. And yet, despite your statements that those leaving are increasing and those arriving for the medical field are rapidly declining, the number in England actually increased last year.
It is not surprising that there are openings in the field. The unemployment rate in England, at 4.3%, is lower than it has been since the 1970s. With full employment, one has more openings unless something is done to make people prefer your industry. With the Tories constantly squeezing the medical field, it is probable that salaries are not keeping pace with the competition, thus making it less attractive for those deciding whether or not to go into nursing, etc.
8
With all of the high unemployment in the other parts of the UK, this just seems to be an excellent opportunity for British citizens to be trained as nurses, computer programmers etc. (I realize that for MD's it takes many years, but this can be overcome as well but it would take a several years to do).
There are some issues here. First is will the Government encourage/offer opportunity for UK citizens to be trained? Is the private industry willing to train? There's no reason why the private industry, in conjunction with a university offer scholarships.
In the US I see similar issues, especially in technology. Facebook, Google etc heavily rely on foreigners to fill their ranks, but there are large swaths of Americans who should be going to college, but just are not.
Private industry always seems to want to take the easy way/low cost way. Instead of providing scholarship to help fill their ranks, they pay the visa fee and hire the skilled foreigner. How much scholarship money has Facebook given out? I'm not talking about the $$ that goes to Stanford, but how about to the 2nd and 3ed tier universities?
1
As Trump builds his "bureaucratic wall" that will negatively impact immigration for a generation, his supporters should take note of the draconian impact nationalism in the form of Brexit is having in the UK. Just like the pending US tax legislation that is deceptively being called "reform" his supporters will soon find themselves wondering why the goods and services they buy now cost so much more, why they have less disposable income in the wake of tax season, etc. I no longer trust the electorate to make informed decisions.
5
The problem isn't nursing education here and it's not in this country either. Nursing school enrollment is very high here and new nurses can't get jobs after graduation. The issue, as this article states clearly, is that nurses and doctors do not want to work in a country that is outside of the European Union. And I don't blame them, Brexit was a terrible idea.
3
Here's an idea. Raise wages and have the national government get off the austerity jag and put more money into the health care system. Want to bet a lot of continentals will come over to help the NHS out. And no one knows what agreements will come out of negotiations. Want to bet profit making corporations will find a way to keep their business. On both sides. This is just scare mongering. Promoting the idea that keeping national sovereignty, which was essentially tie root upset in the vote, is somehow not all that important!
"Long before Brexit, the N.H.S. suffered from chronic staffing shortages,..."
That quote is a huge understatement. The problems Britain experienced, "long before Brexit", are the reasons for people leaving. They were leaving before Brexit, during, and will after. Britain's near socialist system has starved the society of innovation, of renewal, of prosperity. Further exacerbating this was the European Union. Their socialist health system is a ball and chain on the future of the country.
29
The rest of the developed world pays half as much per head for healthcare, gets equivalent outcomes (sometimes better, sometimes worse, overall pretty similar) and covers every citizen, cradle to grave, no questions asked.
Why on earth would they want advice from America?
18
If that was the case, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and the Netherlands would be bankrupt. They're not.
12
As a Brit expat living here in NYC this is a classic example of someone who doesn't have a clue about the NHS or socialism per se. Compared to the chaotic, disjointed , costly, bleed the sick for profit ' health system ' ( its not even a system more a jumble of providers) which works only for the wealthy in the USA, and really is a ball and chain on employers and employees who cannot leave a job often because they need the health coverage that comes with it. The NHS stands a shining beacon for common sense. like many of the other similar EU systems for that matter even with all its flaws. Plus the USA is fast becoming a fascist , Russian puppet to boot Comrade.
15
Muddled statistics in this article, but I suspect if the hospitals were understaffed before the vote and after the vote, Brexit is not the problem, though making it more difficult for their European staff to remain in Britain is a problem in itself. And if the vote to leave was based on fraud--our Republican Tories would never do such a thing here, unless, of course, it enriched their Supreme Leader, Donald Trump--why not hold another vote. There is a big difference between the promise of $100 billion more a year going into the NHS and $0.
1
Brexit was part of the same wave that swept Trump in. Both were driven by powerful nationalist sentiments and mainly supported by angry and frustrated people who will lose the most thanks to their very bad decisions. These same forces are sweeping through much of western Europe and seem to be gaining strength. Somehow we have to balance our humanitarian instincts to welcome desperate refugees with the largely irrational but very real fear many have that their countries are in danger and their traditional ways are threatened.
3
Britain is a First World country, one of the richest and most modern in the world. Yet this article would have us believe Britain's health care system will collapse without foreign doctors and nurses? Give me a break.
We in the West are subjected to endless neoliberal propaganda disguised as journalism. We're told it will be the end of the world if the flood of immigrants ceases. We'll be impoverished without free trade and open borders. (Who will pick the crops? Who will pick the cotton if we abolish slavery?)
Are we supposed to believe the British are incapable of producing their own doctors and nurses? Are Filipinos and Indians somehow more capable than Brits? There's no shortage of doctors and nurses in India and the Philippines? Why is that? They must have amazing health care systems if that is the case. Or is there a brain drain from the Third World to achieve lower salaries in the First World?
The EU was created for the benefit of international banks and multinational corporations, not for the good of workers and the middle class. Open borders cause wage depression by allowing workers from poor nations to flood into higher wage nations. The wealthy shareholders who own the media want you to believe the EU is some kind of benevolent utopian project and not an undemocratic neoliberal project that suppresses wages to benefit the wealthy shareholders of multinational corporations.
Don't believe the neoliberal snowjob they're trying to pull over on you.
42
Time will tell.
1
It is as if you didn't even bother to read the article.
2
Maybe if you visit an NHS hospital in Britain, or at the minimum investigate the stats quoted here you could find out for yourself, instead of hollering “Fake News!” with absolutely no basis in fact from California. You don’t think we import foreign nurses and doctors here in America? And for some very similar reasons to Britain? You don’t seem to know very much about our own healthcare, let alone theirs.
6
A part of the problem in shortages of nurses and health workers everywhere is the educational system that does not promote health and science education. In our country, at the state college level, we have limited the number of slots in nursing programs; thus, making the graduation rate very low. Try to find a nursing professor for a nursing program, they are very rare and hard to find and hire. Then at the high school level where we are preparing students to go to nursing schools, where are the STEM courses that lead to better chances of being accepted at the competitive nursing schools? Look at the whole program and I bet, Britain is in the same situation - not enough nursing students, not enough nursing programs, not enough scholarships for nursing students, etc.
7
It is not an issue of STEM education. It is an issue of top students walking away from medicine.
As a graduate of a US medical school, I can say that it is not worth going into debt to the tune of $200,000 - $400,000 these days to become a doctor. The reason that foreign doctors are flooding into the US is that they attend low-cost medical schools in their home countries and enter the field of medicine with zero debt. They make 10 - 20 times what they would make in their home countries, without the huge debt burden of American medical students.
Our medical education is seriously flawed. No one can afford medical education. I advise my younger patients to not enter medicine due to its high costs, as well as the growing domination of lesser trained physician assistants and nurse practitioners. Why pay $400,000 and spend 3-8 years in lowly paid residency training when you are competing with others who may have 1) zero medical school debt (foreign doctors) or 2) PA's and NP's who do not face the financial burdens of medical education.
10
I don't think I want a doc who's focused on the dollars like this, and I certainly don't want a doc who's this disinterested in facts.
These folks did med school in America, and helped pay for it by agreeing to serve in rural areas and inner cities for a while.
And by the way, has it occurred that perhaps haranguing your patients about how much being a doctor stinks is not exactly the greatest message to give your patients?
Unfortunately, Robert, it is extremely important for future medical students to weigh the economic impact of attending medical school, as it is the most expensive graduate degree that anyone can pursue in the US.
I am sure you want a happy, focused physician, as opposed to an unhappy, insolvent physician!
The NHS could start by working with the nursing registration council, the NMC, to create a more streamlined, realistic process for foreign nurses to register and get licensed. My wife is a U.S. born and bred nurse, with a Bachelor's in Nursing. We spent a year living in the UK while I went to school and she hoped to work as a nurse. She was required by the NMC (1) pay for and take an English language exam (2) undergo 9 months of FULL-TIME, UNPAID training to get licensed. In addition to a degree of paperwork I still can't fathom, including an obscure and convoluted calculation of her credit hours and training experience.
We couldn't afford for her to work unpaid, full-time for 9 months. So, despite her skills, experience, and education she worked as an assistant in a nursing home. What a waste of her talents.
245
U.S. does the same thing at the nursing and physician level, with many training, certification, and licensing hurdles.
3
Teachers, nurses and many other professions must work these unpaid hours, usually referred to as "clinical hours". This is true in the US. Even if you just move to a different state and need a new license. Nothing new.
5
Those who try to wreck you and your country need to be systematically eliminated.Those who are helpful to Britain need to be made to feel welcome.You cant try to be God to forgive your enemy. We are living on earth and NOT in heaven. By indiscriminately forgiving you cant endanger the life of others to make you feel like a saint. There is no merit in feeding a poisonous snake who is ready to bite the hand that feeds it and letting it lose on the unsuspecting public. Be good to the good and unrelentingly bad to the bad.
Brexit was a self-inflicted nightmare based on lies. The perpetrators were rewarded even after the lies were unmistakable. It’s not clear when the population will get a chance to recognize and reverse what was done to them by the failures of the ruling class.
2018 is not a Presidential election. We’ll be up against gerrymandering and self-serving voter restrictions coming from the Kobach people. But at least we get a chance, and we’d better take it.
11
"In March, the government announced a plan to hurriedly train more British nurses. Yet in September, enrollment at nursing schools dropped, because the government also cut grants to nursing students."
Sounds very American: complain about labor shortages, but cut education funding for your own citizens!
209
This is a clue to what “making America great again “ would look like.
17
Who could have possibly foreseen this outcome? Almost anyone except supporters of Nigel Farage, who waged a half-baked vitriolic Brexit campaign built on lies. At least the UK decided to commit suicide by a popular vote and Farage had the decency to disavow his promises the morning after the vote.
8
The history of Britain is distinctly different from The USA. Thousands of years in existence, a world superpower through conquest and colonialism, it is difficult for their average citizen to accept changes to their way of life from immigrants and globalization. Hence Brexit. The USA was built, and achieved unparalleled success, by immigrants. The idea that so many nationalities can come together in The USA and succeed is the envy of the world, until now.
We can and should remain committed to our model and not turn inward toward nationalism, fear and bigotry.
19
Don't blame Brexit for the troubles in the NHS , it's purely down to lack of funding , the Tories are trying to privatise sections of the NHS . I know, I have been to two separate 'private' servers within this year, a private Hospital for clinical treatment and a private opticians for Hearing aids ..... what THEY charge the NHS I shudder to think.
The European workers are in the minority, the majority of NHS workers are from Commonwealth countries and British workers will be trained to meet the shortfall. The object of this story ? the media backers ? the money men trying to protect their investments ? Who Knows... but don'tn believe all you read.
25
Well, this is one way of obfuscating the obvious costs of Brexit: what you see isn't real and if you see it it's due to something other than Britain's decision to leave the EU. Sorry, but reality speaks louder than vague media conspiracy theories.
1
The lack of funding also explains the deficit in British doctors and nurses (which extends to all STEM fields). UK university tuitions, similar to US ones, are extremely larger than in other EU countries, that invest and rely more heavily on public universities. Less people can afford a college education there.
2
A similar situation looms in the US. Rural and inner city areas are heavily reliant on immigrant physicians through the J-1 visa program. This program allows graduates of foreign medical schools who come here for post-graduate training to obtain permanent resident status, known as a Green Card, in exchange for practicing in under served areas for three years. Some of these doctors come from countries that are now on Trump's no entry list.
Residency programs in most specialties, and especially in primary care have already seen a drop in applications from foreign medical graduates before any specific policies have been enacted.
Given the current anti-immigration and anti-Muslim sentiment, it will become increasingly difficult for rural hospitals to find qualified medical staff. Coupled with the administration's intention to decrease overall immigration, an already critical shortage of physicians in rural areas can only become worse.
38
America should remove the caps on the number of medical students, train American citizens and stop bringing in doctors from other countries or training doctors from other countries.
The majority of new physicians in our area are not American and are hard to understand.
In 20 years will the majority of physicians in America actually be Americans??
7
Good thing they are planning and trying their hardest to decimate "Obamacare" then. Under this way of doing things no one could afford the doctors who couldn't or don't want to come anyhow. See, it's a seamless plan. And you thought they didn't know what they were doing.
2
Britain is counting on former English speaking colonies to will fill the gaps. It is also hoping to create a closer alliance between all English speaking countries against, what it sees a European/Germanic hegemony
2
Yea. They are successfully beating back the plans of the Kaiser. Let Pax Britannica rule the day once again!
1
Because former British colonies are oh-so-loyal to their former oppressor? I’m not sure what fantasy world you live in if you actually believe what you stated.
1
Why do destructive, selfish people wind up in powerful positions that history teaches us, if we had been a bit more discerning and compassionate we never would have allowed them to rise to power? It is a testament to our inattention, easy manipulation and lack of compassion that human civilizations are constantly on the verge of collapse rather than completely wiped out.
2
As with people who opposed Trump from the start, the most depressing thing about this article is the fact that Remainers saw all of this – everything – coming from a mile away. Much of Remain's strategy was rooted in very justifiable fear mongering around the loss of skilled workers, tax revenue, trade, and essential services.
Many of the people who fought hard to prevent both Trump and Brexit did so because they knew that vast amount of impact would be borne by Red States and Yes areas. Yet there is no schadenfreude, only increasing despair as many of their worst fears come true.
With Brexit, I think it has called to question the merit of holding referendums on issues of national policy – Brexit is so obviously bad for the country yet its impacts are virtually impossible to grasp in the abstract. With Trump, I think the lesson is less clear. In both cases, the cynical pragmatists who attached their careers to Trump and Brexit should be ashamed for failing to have the resolve to admit a wrong.
365
John, next time, the Democrats should find a candidate who is not the biggest FOIA violator in history, after 40+ years on the taxpayer dime .. vs. a President Not Hillary.
2
So Clinton was not perfect enough for you or all the others who yawned and did not vote, or voted 3rd party because "both sides were the same"?
Or so you voted for a lying crooked real estate mogul with ties to the Russian mob?
Boy oh boy, the Brexit voters have nothing on us, that's for sure.
5
The British have shot themselves in the foot and in the gut with Brexit. They might make, may-be, but, if they recover, the process will be slow and painful and worse for those who voted for it, because they are not rich enough to board their yacht and cruise the Mediterranean and wait things out. America, with election of Trump, has shot itself in the head. If it's not dead already, it will come out of the coma brain damaged.
16
Yep we have seen this picture before. What is that saying be careful what you wish for. It seems like we have not fully felt that hear yet in the US but we are getting there. Interesting that we even heard hear in the US that promises that more resources would be diverted toward the NHS that would be saved on spending in the EU so that was a lie. Just like now hear with this supposedly tax bill which is the great give away to Corporations and the rich at the expense as always the middle class. Hopefully people wake up and start voting with their feet.
8
So the NHS had a net influx of workers in the year after Brexit. The results it generates are comparable to those in countries that spend more per capita. There's a labor shortage in London, i.e., unemployment is low. Yes, there is a need to protect the workers in the hospitals and my guess is that that protection will be afforded. In fact, this article demonstrates why Brexit was the right move. The UK can now look at its employment needs and surpluses and make wise decisions about immigration quotas. It can also decide what industries need to be protected from foreign predation to ensure sufficient jobs for its citizens. Of course, refugees and those seeking political asylum should still be allowed entry and nobody should be deported. I trust in the innate goodness of the British people.
37
So nativism has its good side?
1
I trust in the innate goodness of the British people also, but the current British government is another matter. If you believe they'll look at employment needs and surpluses you're being optimistic. Like the Republicans they care only about the rich and corporations and nothing about the "little people", which is a big part of the reason the NHS is in such bad shape; it was underfunded long before Brexit.
"
"I trust in the innate goodness of the British people."
I am British and certainly do not "trust in the innate goodness of the British people", and that includes my own pro-Brexit mother.
2
Indeed... Our NHS and respected respective staff of all ilks, persuasions and types really.
I was remain myself.
I'm looking at an article here, just FYI and to add a further piquancy to this discussion:
See an exclusive in the Guardian here, UK side, by Alan Travis of September 21st.
Theresa May's plans to create a "hostile environment" for illegal immigrants is to be enhanced by asking banks and building societies to scan all their customer accounts (~70million) to check the immigration status if them.
What can you say to that eh!
It's hoped around 6,000 illegals will be bagged in the first year. And those accounts identified as held by illegals will be frozen or closed, to make life difficult.
I just thought to add this to the chat here.
As for EU nationals in our NHS!
It's our entire NHS too, from the allocation of resource funding to cost of services plus outsourcing and even GP's costs of rental space in local areas (to be brief here with info). Our own (nationals) are leaving or not joining ... Nurse training bursaries gave been shredded....there's a depletion in total recruitment.
Brexit and austerity. Our NHS and...
I'm so fed up with this! And this bodes ill for our future too should not a grip be gotten...
8
Racism and imperialism is the belief that you deserve the best of other countries because you are superior. These medical professionals are desperately needed elsewhere.
8
The primary campaigner for Brexit, Boris Johnson, traveled around in a campaign bus with, in large numbers, the promise that all the money spent on the EU would instead go into the health system. This figured into hundreds of speeches, including by current Prime Minister May. It was all fraud. Britain will have to increase its own spending for governmental operations, border enforcement, etc more than it paid the EU. One wonders if the Conservatives, never great proponents of the British health care system, secretly considered this blow to health care to be an excellent feature, not a flaw.
452
I remember Farage going on the BBC THE MORNING AFTER the referendum to say 'actually no, that money won't just be going to the NHS'. One wonders if he had ever been asked direcly before. Many Brexiteers are now saying 'fine, we'lll have British doctors and nurses' not realizing how long it takes to train them.
102
Marvant Duhon: I bet you're right. Sadly, we see the same thing here in America. Conservative Republicans actually don't want to care for anyone who can't pay for it, and they want the level of care to be commensurate with what you can pay. It's not that they are consciously mean, it's that they consider it a form of tough love. (I am giving most of them the benefit of the doubt, there...)
All financial arguments surrounding it are nonsense, because the actual numbers never add up if the stated purpose is to provide a choice of healthcare for all citizens; their plans always result in millions of people having no choice (eat or buy health insurance is not a real choice). The healthcare and tax plans floated over here all aim at one eventual goal: gut Medicare and Medicaid, with Social Security nominally safe only because there are so many seniors that they form a huge voting bloc, in order to further reward the rich for being rich.
But then, once healthcare is gutted, fewer people will live to be seniors...
3
For Tories, who have been plotting the destruction of the NHS since its creation, the coming failure of the NHS is an added bonus from Brexit. They have intentionally mis-managed this NHS for the past 6-7 years causing all metrics on performance to plummet. Brits have no idea how awful, and unaffordable, an American style system will be. Unfortunately, like Brexit, by the time they wake up, it will be too late.
6
Tell the whole story.
Other EU countries are training their citizens to be nurses with much fewer requirements. Then the NHS scoops them up to save money so that more tax money sent to the NHS can go to the MBAs running it.
There are plenty of Brits willing to be trained as nurses and the govt used to use subsidize the cost of the training so that Brits would be employed AND have good nurses. But that approach meant less money for the MBAs and endless layers of bureaucrats.
Globalism enriches a very few people. The foreign workers are exploited and the native citizens lose jobs and get lower quality services. Tell the truth.
118
All true, except for the assumption that only British nurses have a good education. Other EU countries are not exactly laggards in education. The only reason British universities attract so many more foreign students than, say, German, Danish or French one is that English is now the universal language.
1
I could spend all day responding to Honeybee's poor arguments, but I'll let others do some of the work.
This particular argument fails for lack of evidence.
Claim one: Other EU countries are training their citizens to be nurses with much fewer requirements.
If Honeybee has read anything regarding EU requirements for the training of medical staff, it was likely too difficult to understand. The other, more sinister, possibility is that Honeybee is a paid troll. Here is one relevant document that refutes Honeybee's claim.
http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/102200/E92852.pdf
4
"Other EU countries are training their citizens to be nurses with much fewer requirements."
Completely false. University educational standards in Europe are way more strict, uniform and demanding than here. Among other things because of the strict EU requirements credits and degrees must fulfill before being transferable and recognized in other EU members.
Regarding the economic problem: yes, the UK cannot train enough people in key STEM fields (not only medicine), because their university credits are among the most expensive in the EU because you know, better letting the invisible hand of the market take care of things...
2
Don't fall for the hype.
This is just like the tech sector over here claiming we MUST import thousands of H1B visa holders because Americans aren't qualified enough.
In no time, that translates to American workers at Disney being forced to train their foreign replacements or give up a severance.
These sectors put up obstacles for Americans to get the training so they can then cry wolf about needing more labor. It's all about cheap labor at the expense of both the foreign workers and the native citizens.
72
You obviously do not know how the H1B system works. As everything, it can be abused; but in order to hire a foreigner under an H1B you have to (1) offer the position and demonstrating that you are not getting American applicants with an equivalent level of training and expertise; (2) pay them at least the average of what other employes make in that position (in your company or, if no equivalent position already exists, in the state); and (3) get an inspection of the position by the Department of Labor after the first three years, and then yearly until visa expiration, to ensure that wages are kept and increased at levels at or above average, and the worker duties have not been improperly altered.
H1B workers are not cheaper, but actually their average wages are above those for American workers in the same positions (to which you must add the expenses from visa application and processing, which are not cheap). If somebody decides to hire an H1B worker is not to save money, but because there is actually a deficit in the number of American workers with the same training and expertise. Of course there are cases of fraud, but the Department of Labor actively and closely inspects the program, and has regulations to punish and prevent it.
3
It is a cautionary tale that the United States needs to pay attention to. But we won't.
25
Remarkable how a country can shoot itself in its collective foot. Another reminder that allowing unlimited flow of money into politics, allowing big M&A in media and tech (Murdoch empire, Facebook-Instagram-WhatsApp, etc.) can have a devastating effect on our democracies. Let's fix it.
61
The reason Murdoch supported Brexit is because he can influence and intimidate British politicians with his media empire, but he has no power over the EU because he doesn't control the media in non english speaking countries. When he would tell Brussels what policies they should implement, they would tell him to go jump.
This, from his perspective, is about making the pond smaller so he was the only big fish.
2
The NHS cannot poach doctors and nurses fast enough to keep up with the rapidly aging population of the UK. Brexit is irrelevant in the face of these numbers.
Data from the Office for National Statistics:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigrati...
The median age for the UK population rose from 33.9 years in 1974 to 40.0 years in 2014, a rise of 6.1 years. This is its highest ever value and the figure shows that the UK population has been consistently getting older.
Percentage of UK population aged 65 and over
1974 13.8
1984 14.9
1994 15.8
2004 15.9
2014 17.7
2024 (projected) 19.9
2034 (projected) 23.3
2039 (projected) 24.3
4
Thank you for this article. Dedicated skilled clinicians are the heroes literally saving human lives as an unhinged Tory Party wreaks destruction of everything great and good the UK once stood for. What a miserable shame.
128
is it not possible to train English people to do these jobs? Once they started to import foreign workers, Britain should have realized that they would have opportunities for their citizens. Also, these medical professionals must be needed elsewhere.
73
The issue is that it wouldn't happen overnight. There isn't a supply of British nurses sitting home waiting for the foreigners to leave. The system change will be implemented, but it would take some years, not many, but a few, to find the right mix.
2
Did you not read the article? The Conservative government is cutting funding for nurses training. Conservative stupidity all around.
19
Um, they didn't import people. They had open positions, and people applied. The most skilled won the jobs, no matter their nationality.
But yes, now there will be more opportunities for British youth....they need to step up to the plate.
4
OECD says that you need roughly 2 nurses (or nurse equivalents) for every 1,000 population you are covering with your health plan, be it public or private.
So if the population drain of foreign nationals in the UK does not exceed 200 nurses per 100,000 people leaving the country, they will have a net gain in medical delivery capacity. Otherwise a loss.
Remains to be seen where they will end up.
WR
2
Targeting immigrants has consequences? I'm shocked, of course.
Yeah, we've seen this over and over. And then the community goes, "Oh, no, I didn't mean that immigrant that cared for my dad" or "No, not the guy that runs that great Mexican restaurant...". I meant the *other* immigrants.
What surprises me so much is that people have ignored that their families came here as religious refugees, famine victims, natural disaster impacted, fleeing wars, seeking opportunity, and everything else today's immigrants do too. The lack of empathy especially from the self-proclaimed Christians astonishes me the most.
441
After the last year, there is not much about bad behavior by self-proclaimed Christians that astonishes me. There have been some shining examples to the contrary, but the willingness of so many such people to support poor policies and appalling people has been a real betrayal of the Faith.
28
I am an American nurse. Here, we hire nurses from the Philipines. Why don't we have enough American nurses? Probably, the same reason as Britain. Our educational system does not adequately prepare young people in the rigors of science which forms the scholastic foundation of nursing. To quote the erudite Donald Trump, SAD!
285
It's done purposely to prevent Americans from getting the jobs so cheaper foreign labor can be hired.
That Americans would do this to other Americans is what's SAD.
11
UK nurses earn one half to one third what US nurses earn. Imagine how much worse the US situation would be with salaries like that. I'd say the NHS is in a worse crisis than US nursing. Sadly, it's a crisis by design.
3
The nurses who come in from other countries are paid the same as American trained nurses. This is different from the tech industry. The health care system is not "importing" cheap labor.
3
It wasnt really sold that way. Boris Johnson plastered "350 million is sent to the EU each week. We'll put that into the NHS" onto the side of a bus and the leave voting British public believed it. A slogan on a bus is what has sent Britain back to the 50s...and Boris Johnson, their current Foreign Secretary and incompetence personified.
128
Then why did the "Remain" supporters not address this, or have bus slogans of their own?
1
America's left has attacked Brexit – painting it as close-minded and racist. The truth is much more nuanced. Germany’s hegemony has been extraordinarily dysfunctional for Europe and for the world:
1. Fiscal policies descendent from the collapse of the deutschmark in the Weimar Republic were imposed on the “PIGS” and left their economies in shambles when public-sector investment would have accelerated their recovery.
2. Hyper-regulation of every aspect of commerce and life – based on a German culture’s tendency toward rules, bureaucracy, and structure – have crippled entrepreneurship and free enterprise EU wide.
3. Germany’s misplaced guilt from the mid-20th century has meant that Europe will not act against the cause of “the refuge crisis” - then Germany forces open-border policies on all of Europe (is it “compassionate” to refuse to interfere in Al Assad’s tyranny but to then impose refuge quotas on countries that have built social and commercial infrastructures adequate to serve their people but not hundreds of thousands of others?). Syria is a dystopia but Merkel and Germany force Europe to sit on the sidelines and then wreck their own world-leading social welfare systems trying to accommodate the resulting refuges.
In all these regards, Brexit, Hofer, and others are a rational response to Germany’s misguided dominance. We do no good when we support Merkel despite these terrible policies – and we lie when we equate Brexit with close-mindedness or hate.
11
Ah, R U a Russian bot? Germany is the biggest threat to the enemies of the EU and liberal democracy. Brexit is perfect for those who want to bring down the US and Europe. Machiavelli understands this.
16
Interesting how you are failing to address the issues presented in this article.
1
The idea that Brexit was founded on policy-based objections to German positions and practices does not stand examination. It was overwhelmingly supported by older, less educated people with a nostalgic view of Britain's place in the world who were all too disposed to accept the falsehoods the Brexit leaders knowingly and shamelessly promoted. And as with Republican voters in the United States, they will be among those who suffer most immediately and seriously from their folly.
6
There's a lesson, here, for the United States where for the sake of their own egos, our own, home-style demagogues manipulate and persuade voters against the best interest of our country.
43
And that's new because? Been going on for thousands of years.
Sadly Brexit is another startling example of uninformed people voting against their own best interests.
819
They're voting for temporary upheaval in order to displace the ruling class who are raking in the profits at the expense of native citizens.
It happened here, too, with Trump, and we're never going back. The elite got too greedy under Obama and the backlash is here to stay.
Everyone in the ruling class, of course, dislikes this.
7
Ditto for America's newest president.
2
I really hope this is sarcasm.
3
Well done Britain! You’ve freed yourself from Continental tyranny! You’ll be okay with this when you need a cardiac bypass surgery and the only people available are the geriatric attending with Parkinson’s and the second year medical student, right?
138
As an avid viewer of Midsomer Murders series, always within the plot of finding the culprit they consistently ask -who benefited the most? Within this preamble today I am questioning if the pro-Brexit campaign was influenced by the Russian hacking (bots + trolls) apparatus-too? It is clear that the remedy was worse than the disease...-I still gobsmacked by it...!!!-
64
Nice! I love it when racism hurts the people who voted for it.
92
Except it hurts everyone.
1
Easy for you to say You love to see Racism hurt the people that voted for it but it hurts all the people especially those who did not vote for it!
1
Permit me to draw an analogy to our USA As the revolting revisionists keep pushing their hateful agenda iin the name of "patriotism" be very careful of what you wish for:
1. perhaps growers who supported this hateful agenda will have many white high school kids lining up to pick crops I think not.
2. Consider this: When Trump and co blow up NAFTA what will the farmers & growers in the Midwest think? Their most lucrative markets:Canada and Mexico, will dry up. Already Mexico has signed bilateral trade deals-with Argentina (for wheat), China,.... and the Australians & Argentinians sell a lot of beef around the world..
3. There's a labor shortage right now in much of the country. By sending many unskilled home health workers back "home" who's going to take care of our parents? Perhaps Donald Jr. and Eric and Melania will roll up theri sleeves for a photo op ..
4. WalMart that beloved provider of goods to Red States, will be raising their prices..by a lot ,as trade dries up.. there will be little to no American made replacements readily available for years..for that is how long it takes to build a viable supply chain.
So, you who thought there would only be good business results from a "businessman" just think why Trump did few deals with Western countries..
do you like to be pushed around? is that a "deal"?
that's all after he and his GOP cohorts stick their smarmy hands on your hard earned wages,assuming you sttill have a job
Be careful of what you wish for......
82
Or maybe we should not wish to exploit weaker people and weaker countries for our own comfort - see Honeybee's comment above.
4
Prepare for the Asian century, all. Too many Brits and Americans decided that winning in life wasn't good enough. They don't want capitalism anymore. They don't want democracy anymore. They don't want diversity anymore. Prepare to witness two of history's greatest declines in power. Self-inflicted wounds at the hands of racists and losers. Prepare to go down with the ship.
260
@bstar: Uneducated voters are rejecting democracy in favor of facism, because our corporate overlords have convinced them in multiple media assaults that capitalism in conjunction with fascism will bring prosperity to all, while hiding the fact that it is merely the best way to keep the oligarchs in power. Look at how successful Putin has been in making himself one of the world's richest men, thanks to his brand of capitalist fascism. Rich men around the world want to emulate him, and Britain and the US have no shortage of fascist capitalists pulling strings to manipulate the electorate in their favor.
7
And so we have the Koch/ Walton/ Adelson/ Ricketts/ Mercer backed ("invested' in) tax plan that gives them and corporations breaks on private planes and dining subsidies while slashing medicare spending.
Nice job, Russian agent trump voters. Making Russia great again, by weakening the US by gutting the middle class.
1
Trump does not *want capitalism?*
Gee .. when did that happen? /eyes rolling/
This of course is one of the results of stupid racism. Nativist, nationalist, whatever pretty made up name you want to march under the banner of it is racism - and in this case white of course. You cut off your legs and it is hard to walk around. Golly, what a shock.
39
As a family, we watched the Brexit vote with disbelief. We thought, how stupid can they be? Now we know. Then, we watched in horror as Trump (and Putin) won our election, and we thought the world has officially gone crazy. The impacts of both votes will negatively impact Brits and Americans for decades to come.
276
Goodbye Great Britain.
Hello Little England.
160
I blame this on Cameron. He never should've let this come to vote. To allow stupid people to make stupid decisions like this is never a good idea. It looks like the NHS could collapse because of this and many will suffer. Those who voted for BREXIT deserve it - but there are too many innocents who will suffer horribly as well. It's like watching the death troes of Great Britain. It's just awful.
114
There is something wrong if government run healthcare is so dependent on foreign work force ; where are UK doctors and what was done over years to improve numbers of "domestic" docs and nurses ?
3
There's a saying that's attributed to Winston Churchill: "The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter". Not sure if he really did say it, but it's kind of spot-on with regard to Brexit.
2
I don't think they are able to produce enough professionals to fill all of the positions. There is nothing wrong with government-run healthcare. I don't know what's going on in Britain in terms of producing the necessary supply of people to cover those jobs. They do require a certain amount of science and it is a little harder to get those degrees. I've noted in the US a lot of students are too lazy to pursue degrees that require courses they consider to be hard.
1
Is a country a nation state with a certain set of people that have a shared history or culture or is it just a land mass where people come together to engage in market activities and then retreat to to their respective corners?
I support Brexit. I support the notion that England is for the English, France for the French, China for the Chinese etc.
6
And, America is for ?
2
Excellent news.
When can we expect 300-million-plus immigrants to pack up and abandon America, returning it for the Native Americans who were there before the centuries-long Colonial slaughter attempted to eradicate them, while taking part in the biggest land grab history has ever seen?
No?
Not filling a suitcase right now, and heading to the nearest coastline to abandon America, and return it to her First Peoples?
Thought not.
Funny how all the people who go "England for the English, [Country] for the [people]" always forget to add: "Oh, except for me and us in MY country, that is - I'M certainly not like Those people..."
7
And who is America for? Do you think everyone by Native Americans (meaning the indigenous peoples) should leave? What you say negates everything THIS nation was based on.
4
The question has to be asked, however did we cope before we had health workers from the EU? Technically, until the turn of this century most were either British nationals or from Commonwealth countries. As a country we are going to have to start training our own people like we did in the past. Of course that will mean getting rid of some of the ridiculous red tape that the Governments have introduced over the past few years like demanding that trainee nurses have degrees. It will also mean improving salaries, something that has deteriorate over the last few years.
29
Years of Conservative cuts to education and healthcare has consequences.
6
Unfortunately for this idea, the movement of business and major EU institutions from Britain to the Continent, which has already begun, is likely to put a major hole in the finances of the British government, which will leave it in no position to raise NHS salaries. As in so many areas, Brexit's consequences will make it difficult to fix the damage it will do.
2
Could not agree more, support and get more of your own doctors.
1
I do not feel one bit sorry for the UK. They did the same with ' commonwealth doctors' in the 90's. There was preference for EU doctors ( even non english speaking) over commonwealth, english educated doctors. And am I glad this happened to me, was able to attain my full potential away from the UK, in the US. So, my dear fellow healthcare colleagues, this is you chance, make the move, to wherever you wish, you will be better off in the end.
6
Let’s pay our due to the other half of the equation on the NHS: massive, massive, massive jamming up of lists. It’s not as though there will be a massive reduction in wait times with or without staff doctors and nurses.
The NHS was not designed to serve the current population’s size or needs.
6
Well, if you want something entirely for "free"....then you pay in other ways. High taxes and diminished service -- long lines and waits for ordinary procedures.
2
This article is comprehensive and to be commended.
The UK at the moment feels like a living vacuum. Those who chose out of the European Union are introverted inward looking and outdated.
The effects of this divorce have yet to be fully quantified and felt but one thing is for sure, this is an Island mentality which looks not to the future but to its past and dwells there.
73
Most revealing article about the impact of Brexit at this level. What a huge mistake made by those who were led to fear by the fearful, from the poor, rural to the big boys and girls at the top, business and politics. Now the irony as Nurse Pardela puts it regarding the position for a nurse on her shift is that the hospital cannot fill that position. Consequences like this will only hurt an already weakened Britain.
35
You are not asking the hard questions. WHY are there not plenty of nurses in Great Britain? It's a big country. They simply are not educating THEIR OWN PEOPLE to become doctors and nurses, instead dumping the social costs onto other nations (likely the ones that heavily subsidize medical educations).
Nurse Pardela sounds like a nice person and good nurse. Why does she wish to live in a foreign land? Doesn't Germany need nurses too?
3
I think it was explained why German nurses might prefer the UK. They get to have more responsibility for medical procedures there. There can of course be other factors, like maybe the pay is higher, maybe her boyfriend is British, maybe she prefers the cosmopolitan environment of London, maybe she likes meat pies. EU or not, there has always been plenty of migration within Europe. The real question is why you are so convinced that everyone must stay put in the place where they landed by the accident of their birth. God forbid someone live in a foreign land!
4
I lived in Britain in the late '80s/early '90s and knew some nurses. It seemed that there was an expectation that the nurses - overwhelmingly women - would train at public expense, work for a few years, and then get married and leave the profession. I certainly hope things have modernized since then, but I suspect this is still part of the problem.
2
Well, elections do have consequences. Sometimes these are very bad consequences, for nearly everyone.
Each week, the BBC runs a couple of serials about hospitals. I applaud their efforts at showing diversity in these serials, but maybe they should have included more nurses from abroad in these serials, just to show Brittons how dependent they have become to foreign workers in these critical sectors.
The same issue is replicating in the agriculture sector, where crops are left rotting in the fields, for a lack of workers from Bulgaria and Romania.
6