I am almost 80. I have grey hair and wrinkles. I am a widow. Because I am a widow I have to depend on handymen to take care of various jobs around the house. Of the men I have hired, 99% have been respectful and honest.
I was very grateful for the presence of the young, male painter the day the guy from a company I won't name came to take care of a problem. I doubt this guy would have done anything harmful had we been alone. But, he was obviously bristling with self importance and very much in need of calling attention to himself. He kept making sly comments that were not overtly sexual but were directed at me in a way that made me feel uncomfortable. After he left, the painter commented he thought the guy "liked" me. This decent, young man was, like so many decent men, unaware of the full implications of the other man's behavior.
Even though nothing physical occurred, I felt tainted. All the old admonitions about behaving properly so men will treat you properly crowded into my mind. I had neither done nor said anything to encourage his behavior.
I am sure many who read this will laugh and assume I am taking myself too seriously. After all, I am an old woman. Wishful thinking, they will say. Not so. Men like him don't care how old a woman is. They don't care if she is attractive. The impetus for this behavior is simply a show of power.
BTW... he did not complete the job. I had to call the company again.
55
I think you would be surprised, Roxane Gay, if you knew just how many men, in all cultures, in all walks of life & across all societies, have experienced exactly the same trauma that the women raped by Bill Cosby, or assaulted by Donald Trump, or abused according to a complex repertoire of set-ups routinely practiced by Harvey Weinstein, have themselves experienced. When 'feminists' begin to lose sight of the Humanity of the other half of the human race, their own credibility becomes compromised. As Ellen De Generes astutely, succinctly reminded her audience a few days ago: this is about all human beings & all children. Of all ages. In all professions. It's about harassment & abuse in medical facilities, in nursing homes, in pre-schools, in high schools, certainly in prisons & even in faith communities. I have met thousands of men over my lifetime. Only 2 raped me. One was a Hollywood producer (not HW). The other, a lawyer. Both used knock-out drugs in a drink to ambush me. Both were white males. Neither had ever let on in any way shape or form that they were plotting to do this, or were criminals. But many thousands of men in my life never lifted a finger against me. Please maintain some perspective if you don't want to sabotage your own cause, because the 1 thing that will hinder this much-needed 'sea change' (T.H.) is a tide of sweeping statements accusing the wrong people, or hyperbolic rhetoric about some kind of "mass, global conspiracy by all men to rape all women."
21
I've come back to Ms. Gay's article several times today; it's been quite unsettling. I sympathize with the men who want to say, "Hey, it's not me," but I know for the most part, if you search hard enough - looking just long enough to make a woman uncomfortable? - you'll find something in your own past, or at least, something in some man you know - that fits what Ms. Gay is talking about (really, some men here, with NY addresses, say they never noticed catcalls???)
What just struck me in rereading this op-ed is my experience conducting disability evaluations. I started in 2003, and many were from small rural towns in South Carolina. Having recently arrived from New York City, I never (!!??) met or heard of someone I knew who was sexually abused. Realizing that some 25% of the people I interviewed had experienced some form of horrific abuse (one woman was shot up, raped, thrown off a 2nd story balcony, locked in a larger freezer and hit with a frying pan by 5 different husbands), my Yankee prejudice kicked in, and I assumed this could only be explained by the fact they were South Carolinians.
I've thought about this much since then, but reading this again makes me wonder how much abuse I ignored when I was living in NY.
Quite rare, an op-ed that makes you think so deeply and look so profoundly within.
www.remember-to-breathe.org/Breathing-Videos.htm
17
I'm a man. I've been sexually assaulted. I know many women, including my wife, who have been assaulted much more egregiously. I can tell you though, many "good men" (the term you sarcastically put in quotes) genuinely do go through life oblivious to this problem: they don't see it, they don't do it, and women in their lives don't tell them about it. The tone of this article frequently devolves into a sort of generalized man-shaming that is highly counter-productive. Educate, yes. Engage, yes. But don't engage in pan-gender accusations.
23
To take the morally corrupt, greed-driven Hollywood corporate world of Harvey Weinstein and print multiple columns which makes pejorative generalizations about, "men," perpetrates the very stereotyping that the author condemns. Power relationships must change and how that power is perpetrated -- regardless of the gender of the person occupying the position of power. If not, then it becomes no more than a gender integration of the labor camp guards and their comadante.
8
We must all take responsibility for our behavior, this transcends gender identity or sexual orientation. I do not agree with condemning all men as sexist brutes. That is not the reality that I have experienced working as an aerospace engineer in a male dominated field. I can give an example from my career of how women sometimes sabotage themselves with how they present themselves. Early in my career I was working with two other women updating a missile system. At the end of our effort we presented the results of our work to our peers and bosses. On that day we all showed up wearing black and white. I had on black slacks and a white blouse with a bow at the collar, one of my co-workers showed up in an a-line black calf length skirt and a white blouse - we both wore sensible shoes. The other co-worker showed up in a knee length black pencil skirt and a white blouse and pumps. When the young lady in the pencil skirt was briefing she slipped one of her shoes off and played with it. I'm sure she was totally unaware of what she was doing, but she was a very attractive woman, with nice legs and every male eye in the place was watching her foot play with her shoe. Not a single man heard what she said. Heck, I found it distracting. I did not have any problem getting the men to listen to what I had to say, neither did my other co-worker. Presentation matters. Behavior matters. If we offer two products, I can guarantee what most men are going to be distracted by.
9
To all the angry women complaining about men complaining about this article: Take a leaf from your own playbook. Shut up and listen. Sexism is not OK, not against men, and not against women. If you honestly read this article and thought it wasn't problematic, you need to reflect on your own principles, because this is not right. It is wrong to think of and treat all men as predators. It is gross and sexist, and men are right to be offended by this. Enough is enough.
27
I don't disagree with the writer, and I understand the frustration that women must feel, but I do feel this is a simplification of a much more complicated issue. I think we need to draw a distinction between different behaviors... Rape is one thing, sexual harassment is different and they should not be confused. And sexual harassment is a form of harassment in general. If I make a demeaning comment about a woman, that makes it sexual harassment simply because I'm a man. If a woman makes the same comment, or if I make the same comment to a man, suddenly it's not sexual harassment, and somehow the assumption is that it is therefore less of a big deal. Nobody will be shamed or lose their job. But are the feelings that are provoked any different? Do you really think that it doesn't hurt men as much to be belittled in front of people? Or that it doesn't happen? Women often feel that they have to deal with harassment while men don't. Remember that most men put up with enormous amounts of harassment from other men growing up, including physical harassment and beatings, much more than women do. I think we should encourage ourselves to be more resilient to low-level harassment in general, but call out and punish people who use their power to pressure others to have sex or engage in more serious inappropriate behaviors. I think men would happily get behind that. The whole "culture of rape" thing is harder to get behind for us non-rapists.
15
I think largely what the authors is saying is that almost all women have been sexually harassed in some form or another, and the one doing the harassing is almost always a man (Not always, but almost always.) If you are a man who hasn't ever sexually harassed a woman then why are you writing such defensive, angry comments? No one is saying ALL men are sexual harassers.
25
It's the oldest lie in the book: that women "made" men sexualize them by dressing provocatively, sitting too close to them, etc. Orthodox Jewish men and women do not touch each other nor sit in the same section of the synagogue lest the man be tempted, for example.
This is as insulting to men as to women. Are they really so weak and fragile, so unable to control their impulses, so distractible that the mere presence of a woman or shaking her hand will overcome them?
I think not. This is an excuse for their physical and sexual violence and/or urges.
This is not to say that there are not decent men around. There are, but they are not the ones who haunt us.
16
I have never witnessed sexual harassment, nor done it to anyone else. If I ever do, I will definitely step in. What has been made public recently by the rise of women's voices is unacceptable and in humane. New hashtag #not on my watch!
7
This article certainly made me think about my own actions. While many of the #metoo stories were clearly sexual predation by men, I wondered about the more "minor" instances.
I think part of the problem is men are far less emotionally intuitive, whether as a product of how we are raised or genetic predisposition (probably both?). But at the same time in hetero romance we are expected to make the first move, and confidence is clearly more attractive.
Of course stopping quickly after a clear no is a given, but now I'm thinking I've probably made someone uncomfortable with my advances. I don't want to do that to anyone. But I don't want to give up on the potential for spontaneous romance. Thoughts?
6
One would expect an obviously well educated professor to know better than to use the rhetorical equivalent of "you people" as the point of departure into a commentary on highly charged social dynamics. But that is her angle and she sticks with it.
Now, have a look at the many comments citing studies showing men and women both commit rape, assault, and murder of the opposite sex, and not in trivial numbers. The cross-gender nature of the problem under discussion does not end there.
Note that the (mostly) men who are pointing out that sexual victimizing is a well documented two-way street are being ignored or told that they must be perpetrators if they dare report that women commit a large number of sex crimes against men and boys. Those are precisely the behaviors Ms. Gay attributes to men, and yet we need only read the comments of females, here, to see this tendency cuts both ways, too.
Those who refuse to see the full scope of the problem are unlikely to develop just and effective suggestions to improve upon it. The first step toward seeing all sides is being willing to look into them, not of shutting people down with bigoted we-are-good-and-they-are-bad claims that cannot withstand an honest read of the daily news, let alone academic and law enforcement journal articles in many countries including our own.
Ms. Gay began her screed with a reference to data. Perhaps she could take a moment to review what the data say before she wrongly assigns blame to only men again.
16
Puts me in mind of the five best words in the New Testament: Go and sin no more.
When I talk to men in my sphere about this they say not them, no they don't see it. One man friend was peppering our conversations with constant sexual innuendo and sexual flirting. I asked him why since he has a steady girlfriend and it doesn't seem appropriate...his reply...I flirt with all women and they take it with a grain of salt and laugh it off. Funny he never flirts when his girlfriend is present. Another time... I am with two guys at a bar and one is a close friend and the other is his friend that I don't know well. I get up to go and give my friend a platonic kiss goodbye...his friends gets up, grabs me, gives me a sloppy wet kiss and says...if he gets a piece so do I. This same guy talks to the waitress about her boobs and what he likes about them. The waitress laughs it off. I tell him he is being inappropriate and humiliating her for his own selfish pleasure, he tells me to butt out. But not them, no they don't see it. BTW...I no longer meet up with either of these men.
21
You need new friends. I have never witnessed anything of the sort in my 50 years with my friends.
5
If you wonder why men are largely not supportive of feminism anymore, look no further that this or a host of other articles that impugn all men on a daily basis.
No one can respect any group that makes blanket generalizations about 50% of the population but refuses to be questioned on anything.
Empathy for your own firing squad is hard to muster.
19
This shouldn't be that difficult for men to understand. So many of them freak out if they receive a homosexual flirtation. So, men: Think of how you felt caught off-guard, of how you thought you were having a conversation with someone who just wanted to talk with you in a friendly way, how you stuttered and stammered and said, oh, no, I didn't mean to give you the impression I was interested or receptive. How awkward you felt.
Or think of how you didn't interact with someone beyond a glance, and then were on the receiving end of an unwanted advance. Think of little it takes to make you feel THAT uncomfortable.
But then imagine that this happens more days than it doesn't, and that sometimes it's loudly done in public, and sometimes it's accompanied by an unwanted caress or worse, a grab. Or how sometimes it doesn't matter how much you demur, refuse, stammer - the advance doesn't stop.
This vulnerability for women shouldn't be *that* hard to understand.
27
Great comparison. I would like to add that the outcry when young boys are sexually abused overshadows that which occurs when the victim is a little girl. Yet most pedophiles are straight men who abuse girls.
7
We live in a country where until the 80's, it was legal for women to molest young children. Even now, in some states, e.g., Idaho, only men can be charged with statutory rape.
Every week it seems another female teacher is arrested for molesting a minor student of hers. The press never use the word "molest", though, when referring to these assaults. More ambiguous language is used, implying the assault was consensual.
Men's complaints about harassment by women are dismissed out of hand or pursued with the inevitable slap on the wrist for the privileged female assailant.
Dear Women: It's You, Too
16
It bogles my mind that the feminist movement can't see how many people they're pushing away with this kind of rhetoric. I'm a man and last week I was physically assaulted by a woman who started hitting me and making graphically violent threats. When I pushed her back in self defense, she started attacking me even more forcefully while shouting "don't you dare touch me I'm a woman". I had to call the police on her pre-emptively because I knew that if she did the consequences for me could have been very severe.
In Middle School I was frequently beaten and violently bullied by boys who were much bigger than me. Teachers who saw this frequently laughed, and I very much doubt that this is how they would have responded if this was being done against a girl. I've also been guilted into having sex with women that I didn't really want to, because, surprise suppose, women want and pursue sex too and men are not sex machines. I have experienced all of the things that woman frequently claim only happens to them, although of course not as frequently. I've never cornered a women in an office, or catcalled, or groped anybody, so no, I don't have any introspection to do on this topic.
There are advantages to being a man in society, but there are also advantages to being a woman, and feminists seem to want to have both sets of advantages with no downsides. All of these circular discussion will keep happening until we can discuss these issues honestly, and right now that's not happening.
24
I have no responsibility to answer for other men, just because I am a man. And to lump all men together, as the author seems to do, is not only intellectually lazy. It is also the kind of sexist generalization that we thought feminism was supposed to be against.
In reality, many feminists are not against sexism. They are against sexism against women, but are themselves the purveyors of sexism against men.
And it is appalling to see the author. as well as some who have made comments here, engage in the most simple-minded sort of ad hominem argument. The author doubtless dismisses what I and other men have said in objection to her sexism as a "panic." Indeed, we do not "want to be lumped in with the bad men" but that does not mean we "make women’s pain all about themselves." It simply means we demand to be treated fairly. How arrogant and "entitled" we are, wanting to be treated fairly.
Finally, is the complaint of men like myself, who refuse to put up with feminist misandry, as big or important or pervasive a problem as sexual assault? Of course not. But that can not be used as an excuse to try to silence us. The importance of sexual assault does not somehow mean that all other issues are to be ignored.
23
"They can testify about how they have cornered women in narrow office hallways or made lewd comments to co-workers or refused to take no for an answer or worn a woman down by guilting her into sex and on and on and on. "
Hey! Hold on! I am a man. I am "they". And I have not done any of these things. Stop demonizing my gender. It isn't helping.
18
By all means, holler about being tarred with a broad brush. I don't want to be, either. But before you do, please, take a deep breath. Think about what it's like to be a woman being sexually berated and manipulated by bosses, coworkers and men in the street just for existing. I'm not that guy either, but this rage has to be expressed, as uncomfortable as it might be for us, or nothing will change. And it has to change.
23
I'm an old woman: 67.
Every woman I know has a molestation/groping/rape/harassment
story to tell.
Do the math.
16
If you only look at one side of the equation, your math will lead to false conclusions. Fortunately, a wise and dedicated woman has taken the time to add up all the evidence for us.
"Stemple has long focused her research on how sexual violence against men goes under-reported. In 2014, she released a paper on male victims of sexual violence which analyzed several national surveys and found that, when taking into account cases where men were 'made to penetrate' someone else, the rates of nonconsensual sexual contact between men and women were basically equal: 1.267 million men said they had been victims of sexual violence, compared with 1.270 million women.
"The 'made to penetrate' category is not the type of violation we imagine when we think of sexual assault, as Slate's Hanna Rosin wrote in a piece on Stemple's research in 2014. But it can result in similar psychological and physical effects, including sexual dysfunction, depression, loss of self-esteem, and long-term relationship difficulties."
SOURCE: https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/kze8qn /the-hidden-epidemic-of-men-who-are-raped-by-women
If disbelieve the violence depicted by the data, please note that just a few weeks ago, a woman pled no contest to raping two men at knife point. It happens but men are usually dismissed as weak or liars when they report it. Sometimes, they are punished as the guilty parties when their female abusers fabricate stories about being the victims of the rapes.
4
I'm a male, yet I see the problem being patriarchy. I'm not saying women are perfect (I had a few issues with my mom), but it's a patriarchal world, with a few exceptions. And that power gives men the thought that they have the right to abuse women sexually, culturally, emotinally, financially, and for that matter, other people and cultures, and the planet, for the flimsiest and most absurd reasons. It's the problem with men, with men's insensitivity, warmongering, brutishishness, bullying, and positioning of themselves in this world. Why aren't boys taught communication skills and sensitivity training in school from first grade? What about peace studies, cultural awareness, and non-revisionist history? About addressing the pathology of racism, directly? Making all this part of our formative dialogue. If we want a less aggressive, male-dominated world, a more equal, peaceful, and cooperative one, we need to be more pro-activel to get it.
20
A really kind, nice man I know (the kind who would not harm a bug) once made a comment to me about a young woman we saw. Having a very close and uninhibited relationship, he observed to me that the young woman, who looked to be in her low 20s, must be out to have relations that night because of her snug and rather short dress. I told him that while that may be possible, more likely, she’s a young woman who wants to feel attractive, and dressing that way is a method to accomplish that, and it’s a method that is reinforced by fashion, advertising, and the media.
This was really eye-opening to me (and to him when I asked him to think about it) on how even the “nice” guys fall into the trap of judging women. If he, as a nice guy, thinks she “wants” it, what must the males with less self-control think?
I understand a lot of the male commenters are rather offended by this article, and while I sympathize with not wanting to be lumped in with the bad, the article is asking more for reflection. Maybe there have been moments where even the nice guys have thought a woman was advertising her sexual availability when that certainly wasn’t the woman’s intent.
We need to adjust our culture and judgements, but we can’t do that without awareness.
13
A ridiculous anecdote: "out to have relations" (his view) and "feel attractive" (her view) are the self-same thing. What, pray tell, was the young woman in question trying to attract, fireflies or men? This is double speaking self-righteousness in its purest form.
12
If I had to go by my own experience, I would conclude that overall, women engage in more sexually inappropriate workplace behavior than men. From unsolicited touching, to comments on co-workers' appearances, to inappropriate public sharing of personal information, to abuse of seniority.
But, in the cases where I've seen men do things like that, it's been more severe: more threatening, harder to escape, less subtle.
It makes sense to condemn the men who do these things, but I don't want to be left with a professional climate that selectively normalizes inappropriate and disruptive sexual behavior by women only.
12
My husband and I talked about just this. No, he's no abuser. But he admits to standing by while his friends made mysoginistic comments, and conducted themselves in deplorable ways. He's admitted his participation in the behavior, passive though it was. And hes now ashamed. Where are the other men who've been silent when they should have spoken, or acted?
12
These issues should be taught in junior high school health classes, if not earlier.
7
Men are such babies. Look at all the bawling babbling men complaining and denying right here in these postings. Grow up guys, realize it and get over yourselves. By my own accounting somewhere in the neighborhood of 70% of you are guilty of indifference and inaction, or of actively being part of the problem. Just my honest appraisal of my own experience. Hope this helps.
Women, my plan is to fight back hard, and right in the moment as much as possible. They say something level 1 nasty they will get an instant level 4 or 5 in return. This is so they will make no mistake about how I feel. Froteurs, get ready for that sharp kick in the shins or knee to the groin.
The other part of my plan is to call out other women when they enable, immediately and in no uncertain terms. That too needs to stop.
There's a lot of good energy coming out of the Weinstein moment. It's time to harness that energy into some real change.
14
Just read the comments for all the denials, hate, and attacks on Prof. Gay.
And there you have it. These are the men we encounter and live with every day.
Pathetic.
25
Dear Women: It's You Too. I've worked in several contemporary workplaces where the shoe is on the other foot and women have created an atmosphere of sexally based harassment towards the men. It's not just me either. A male friend of mine found similar issues in his workplace. When he addressed it he was fired....by his female boss. And why should anything else be expected? People are people. Some will engage in that sort of behavior and some won't; others will cover it up to keep their little party rolling. And yes, it would be great if we didn't have any of it in the workplace...but let's get real....back in reality human sexual aggression is not a one way street.
10
Although boys & men are raped more often than many people realize, it is still true that more than 97% of rape & sexual assault is committed by males.
It is true that in some environments we are coming across more sexual aggression by females. But they remain the exception, not the rule.
We need to start expecting decency again. We need to demand accountability when people in positions of influence over others (beginning with teachers & kin) start abusing other humans that were entrusted to their care. And we certainly need to stop giving a pass to predators, much less voting them into office.
6
Creating an environment of sexual harassment in the workplace is about much much more than just rape. It can be as simple as someone inappropriately commenting on your body. It can also involve gender related jokes or jokes about private parts, vicious gossip and/or sexually loaded comments made one-to-one in a private office. Comments which are designed to intimidate for various sorts of personal gain rather than move a project forward. The list goes on. Too much to say here, but It's a shame your comment ignores the variety of subtleties that affect real lives.
3
I struggle to describe how utterly fed up I am with the Times (and other papers – the Guardian in the UK is another favorite) serving up at least one defamatory article a week which lumps all men (usually all white men) into one nebulous category, whilst simultaneously pandering to absurdly fine distinctions within other groups.
Never mind that the proposed ‘solution’ would at best do nothing to solve the root cause of the problem, and at worst involves men confessing to sins they have not committed. But inside the evidence-free mind of a so-called academic, the facts are never allowed to stand in the way of a good generalisation!
I am a free speech advocate (extremist even) and 100% assert the author’s rights to express her ludicrous opinions. I also assert my right not to pay to listen to it. The left is very fond of hitting in the wallet those it disagrees with, so consider my subscription cancelled.
By the way, this kind of thing works certain categories of academic into a lather, but has absolutely no resonance with the general public, and this is surely who you want to engage with. Mention ‘rape culture’ to 10 working-class people in the street and you will get at least 9 blank looks. Unless of course all you care about is burnishing your progressive credentials…
13
No. It’s not me. I’ve never acted that way, ever. Also, none of my friends do.
That’s the intellectual equivalency as saying all young black men are thugs or all Muslims are terrorists.
You’re wrong.
15
Someone down here claimed that saying "not all men" is a cliché.
That, I dare say is a cliché in itself, as it repeats the great Robyn Morgan lie that "all men are rapists, and that's all they are!" Do the people who come up with such things not notice that they put themselves in line with the generalizations about Jews the Nazis had? Have they never heard the famous words of a well known feminist that "a sex that sees itself as abve the other is close to the racism of the 3rd Reich" (Andrea Dworkin)
A decent person, critical as they may be, will never use hate paroles like that, and let's be frank: The "Rape Culture" is such a hate campaign, too, because it claims that rape is the driving power of everything in our society. I grant the author here that there are people who think thatis the case - but they live in a delusion.
8
I will start to believe the women when they produce to audio or video proof. Today every women has a cell phone and can buy a pen recorder. So tape the bums and bring them to court. I just do not take your word for the sexual assault allegations. I have been around women for 66 years and you women are just strange sometimes you are playful and then for some strange reason everything bugs you. SO SHOW ME THE PROOF.
2
Wow! Why didn't I think of that! Next time I'm being sexually assaulted, I'll whip out my phone and ask my assailant to take a selfie with me.
What a ridiculous comment.
10
Translation: I don’t trust or like women, so I claim they are all moody and irrational to excuse my misogyny.
7
This is absolute rubbish. The writer flat out accuses all men of being bullies toward women. That is no way to enlist us in the battle.
11
Thank you for this powerful and insightful op ed. I think some young guys just have trouble imagining a woman's feelings in these situations, even as they have been told or already understand intellectually that harassment is wrong. Having conversations about it helps, even when they are difficult, schools (including colleges) need to talk about these issues, and help boys and men empathize and understand why certain kinds of actions crosses a line.
4
Hard not to believe all men are alike, when every significant male figure in your life, were all alike. In my 62 years of life, I remember very few men,who were not. You may be surprised how true that is for many women.
8
There's a strong propensity to treat problems as we see them but the real impact can be made by addressing early childhood because the root of the problem exists, usually, at home. Why? Because the greatest impact we can make is in the first 2000 days (@ 7 years). What we need to do / need a lot more of to PREVENT a future of this:
1. Tell, show, and share love for your children. This means daily interaction, care, and touch so the imprint of worthiness and love is there from day 1.
2. Model it for them in your relationships; seeing healthy adult relationships that are respectful
3. While all children need discipline, separate the offending act from their identity. Their identity is as a loved child by you (and God); the act - whatever it is - that needs disciplined is separate from that and treated as an incident not a condition. The way to reinforce their identity is to remind them of your unconditional love at the time of discipline vs. disciplining with anger.
4. Don't buy into or convey the locker room type talk (you'll get the girl type stuff and worse). It is a false narrative that will destroy their relationships and lives, and lives of those they love later in life.
5. Openly communicate with your children from an early, early age so they know you are there for them.
We need to address key offenders now but if we would start building healthy children and healthy relationships, we'll make a real impact in future years. It takes work but provides many rewards too.
5
Some may find the language of this op ed to be stark and accusatory, and indulgent in blanket statements.
But I think the point is it’s not enough to just simply abstain from harassing. We’ve all got to be involved in making harassment the exception and not the norm. The American people can no longer just leave it to feminist activists to work out. Who could take issue with that?
9
The true story has to do with the interaction of the sexes. Not with what men have done to women. I think that a time will come when the whole story can be told, but this is not the time. I don't think that men honestly discussing the whole story can be heard today. I would be willing to try to discuss my point of view, but I don't think anyone would be willing to listen.
3
Good luck being heard. Women are still trying to after all these thousands of years.
2
Ah, yes, the calling for men—all men—to flagellate ourselves for the crime of being men. You ask us to step up after tarring us and saying we are bad men.
Do you honestly think that telling me and the rest of the men that we are bad and then demanding we do what you ask will work?
This is why modern feminism is a joke.
15
From the opening paragraph:
"the people we most need to reach — the men who are the cause of the problem and the women who feel moved to excuse them — are often resistant to the idea that rape culture even exists."
Case in point, read many of the comments here dismissing this article by a skilled writer and rape victim.
Worse, read the comments on a less liberal news feed to see mostly male commenters repeatedly attack the women/victims for not speaking up instead of the men who are at fault.
And when it comes to sexual predation, violence, abuse and misconduct, it is almost always men who are at fault.
It is not restricted to Hollywood, but the abuse of power in male-dominated industries is widespread. CEOs, business owners, real estate moguls, professors, bankers, politicians, etc.
And the sexual predation is just the half of it. Women even get paid less to take all the garbage they often have to put up with.
To me, as gross as Trump's p*say line was, the most disturbing part was the open, cavalier way he claimed that you can do whatever you want to women when you're a star.
It wasn't just some thing he made up. It certainly wasn't locker room talk. Men don't stand around bragging about molesting women.
For Trump, it was matter-of-fact because it is part of male-dominated power structures.
Just like Weinstein tried to claim as an excuse.
No more excuses.
Hollywood is hopefully the first of many dominoes to fall.
11
Um, no.
If you’re tolerating abuse to make money...well, that’s you.
Don’t even try to blame men for your problems. I am not your keeper.
Learn karate or something, take responsibility for your self.
6
You are so right Ms. Gay!
8
Ms. Gay is a huge part of the problem when she writes such nonsense as "statistics about the scope of sexual violence are always chilling, but even such accountings do little to capture the true breadth and scope of harassment and assault women face."
The FBI has thoroughly documented that sexual violence against women in the U.S. is at historic lows while sexual violence against men, much of it committed by women as even feminist icon Hanna Rosin acknowledged in her 2014 article, "When Men Are Raped: A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault, and women are often the perpetrators," is surely no less and no less painful a problem.
According to hysterics and propagandists like Gay, sexual violence is only perpetrated by men, and only women are its victims. Nothing could be further from the truth, as Gay knows full well. This is, after all, an age when even Time magazine publishes articles like "Congo's Forgotten Curse: Epidemic of Female-on-Female Rape."
Endless studies, such as the one at the University of Missouri, show as in its "Lesbian Partner Violence Fact Sheet" that both violence and sexual violence are more common in lesbian domestic partnerships than in any other.
Gay's pretense regarding the nature and victims of sexual violence serves none of the actual victims well, while making it far more difficult to reach and stop the predators themselves, enormous numbers of whom are female.
Stop propagandizing sexual violence, Ms. Gay.
17
Of course men are guilty.
But, in some cases women could prevent incidents.
Perhaps with an early~warning clue...like a man telling you what you’ll drink, or an invitation to stop at his hotel room, or his request to give or receive a massage...women should just walk away.
2
A lot of defensive feelings in the comments. Sadly, the same kind of lazy fragility anytime this kind of article is written. You have to wonder if a man wrote this if male commenters would be as quick to denounce this is a "witch hunt", to play victim, to play the "good guy", to deflect, to... just plain whine. Really proves Ms.Gay's point. Step it up dudes.
12
Dear Ms Gay,
Aren't you tarring a whole gender with the same brush? You offer me the choice of joining your activists, or being symbolically dumped in the THEM box. I won't accept that.
13
Can't we all just get along?
4
I am a proud feminist. And gay. Please stop saying "all men" are complicit in this. It is not helpful in any way, and TRUST ME I KNOW what pigs men can be. Not all men. Just the ones you notice and remember. That's what psychologists call "confirmation bias"...if you think all men are bad, even just a few confirming examples will "prove" your point. As a gay man and feminist, I have never victimized a woman, but I know how *some* men are predators. Quite well. Get to know your allies a bit better, Roxane Gay.
11
Ms. Gay forgot to throw in the weak caveat "Some, I assume, are good people..."
19
For society that claims that genders are equal in every regard, this author seems to think that one specific gender can't fend for themselves. The term rape culture is actually kind of offensive. Not for the fact that I can't appreciate the concern, but for the fact that the author clearly omits any culpability in that type of culture by the way people carry on oh, by the way they dress oh, by the way they Flirt, by the way sexuality is propagandized and glorified. Now in general it's not the men that are setting the trends. The commercialization of sexuality plays a major role just for the sale of products. That's business. Maybe the author is learning from Trump and just typing divisive rhetoric between genders. Whatever her motive her article is garbage
7
This article sounds like a pentecostal sermon, complete with a call to confession! It's downright creepy. Let's take it one crime at a time, and leave the guilt by association, and coached confessions to despots, bigots, and mobs.
11
Dear Roxane: It's you, too!
Not all men are like Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, Martin King, John Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby, Larry Craig, Newt Gingrich, Rudy Giuliani, Dennis Hastert, Henry Hyde and Donald Trump.
Some are Jimmie Carter, Gerald Ford, George Bush and Barack Obama.
The notion of collective guilt by ethnicity, faith, color and gender is immoral and evil.
12
Please. I lost a job after turning down the advances of a boss - she was a she, me not so much. My first wife tried to stab me and threatened to kill me in my sleep. Ladies, it's you , too!
13
Why not just have zero tolerance for sexual harassment? Why are men required to confess their sins even if they're innocent? I find this column as a human being...forget about as a man...offensive. It implies that all men are sexual predators & or condone this behavior...which is a lie. This column raises a serious issue which I have read in other editorials . When did misandry... a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against men become acceptable? When did the various man-hating stabs, jibes, insults & expectations become part of our culture? Why do our cultural norms protect & celebrate this kind behavior as “independent” or “sassy”? Blatant misogyny & misandry should be unacceptable. The difference is that misogynists are decried as evil while misandrists are celebrated as Strong Women striking a blow for the Sisterhood. Isn't this a double standard?
10
“Trump women can come through and throw him down. That would be the biggest play women can make. That’s what we need to do.”
Or is it 53% of white women voted for Trump?
3
Any healthy man has strong desires. If he doesn't, he is not healthy and needs to see a doctor. The same way electrons are attracted to protons, men are attracted to women. A simple biological fact. In the past, people grappled with this by separating the genders to a large extent. Universities were separate, dorms were separate, the military was for men, while women served the country in other, equally valuable ways. Many vocations were largely separate. When men and women mix in close quarters, there is likely to be trouble. When women dress in certain ways, there is likely to be trouble. Yes, assault and harassment are crimes. So is theft. Suppose your bank taped your savings to the outside wall overnite, with each customer's money in its own paper bag. In the morning, your bag was gone. You complain to the bank that it was stolen, and why were they negligent, it should have been inside in the safe. The manager tells you, "What, how dare you blame the victim? Theft is a crime, and we were victimized. The only guilty party is the thief who untaped the bag."
Similarly, if you don't lock your car, or you leave your front door open every nite, you can expect trouble, even though it is a crime.
Past generations had common sense. we have lost that art.
4
I think you might investigate a
course in logic.
6
Let a hundred flowers bloom!
4
I think the bullying of anyone is despicable. I'm still wondering, however, that if women are so sick to death of sexual violence in all its forms, why did millions upon millions of American women vote for Donald Trump?
4
Hillary has/had her own problems where women are concerned with her own husband. Allegations of rape and then Hill decided to name call the victims and belittle them. Do you honestly think that all women should have voted for her based on her gender?
2
Brainwashing, internalized misogyny, threats of retaliation for voting for Hillary, a desire to preserve the patriarchal status quo and the advantages it confers on some women (trophy wives, Stepford wives, etc).
3
Dear Roxane,
I feel I must apologize for the ignorance and stupidity of my fellow men. I read your article three times looking for the "blame" some comentators ascribe you levled on all men. I do not see it. In fact, you were more than fair, maybe to easy. To me, it proves just what a long journey ahead women (and men) have if they look at your analysis with such blindness. Men use their physical strength, position of power and brainwashing over women throughout this culture and the world. It is in movies, ads, burkas, rape "whistling", grabs, date rape drugs, and much much more. No, all men are not bad, just too many to make our small planet a safe place for women. Keep up the good work. And to all the men, I'm in your club, so you can't fool me. If it happened to your wife, daughter, or mother you would want to castrate the guy. Right? Well rape it is happening every day, to all ages of women, 5 to 85. Disgusting, don't you think? Men need to fix themselves.
13
Don't listen Roxanne! No one speaks for their fellow men.
3
The NY Times has done well to out a terrible perpetrator. Now, many people are joining in a condemnation which should have happened years ago. This column and its comments demagogue the issue. Most men need no patronizing lectures from patronizing columnists on how to treat all people respectfully. Most men do not need to be told how to handle stupid, ignorant comments about people of other races, other genders.
11
I grew up in the fifties, in a strong-family-values culture, surrounded by people who mostly came from it too.
And gosh. The number of women who had affairs with married men and successfully got them away from their wives and children--and usually ensuring that ties with their new husbands' children were severed--was astonishing, considering the times.
Please do not pretend to me--a woman--that girls and women do not infrequently use every physical attribute they may possess to entice men.
This is a human problem, not a male problem, not a female problem. Good people learn boundaries and respect them. Not-so-good people do not.
Considering the endless ravages of greed and hostility we see more than well-documented throughout human history, it's a little excessively pearl-clutching to write and repeat these endless polemics.
I was struck by a photo of Rose McGowan and Harvey Weinstein taken long after the rapes she now reports. She was pretty much out there selling it.
Can you not look impressively successful without having your breasts hanging pretty much out on the red carpet? Why do you think we ought to look at your body? Isn't it your brain from which your art emanates?
Maybe not.
Be good mothers. Be good fathers. You may have a chance of raising good children.
12
Dear liberal NYT-reading men, it is discouraging to see this level of denial and defensiveness from you. And by writing this, no, I'm not saying that you are a rapist. Roxanne Gay is very careful to say that rape is about power, and power is bigger and more diffuse than your personal character. You may individually not be a rapist or harasser or abuser--but, like it or not, you benefit from a social structure that enables sexual violence. That structure is called patriarchy. Sexual violence is just one part of it. Economic injustice is another part, just as big. It is possible to acknowledge this reality without showering insults on Roxanne Gay. And as for the absurd claim of victimization--let's talk about that when you make 75 cents on every woman's dollar. But go ahead and feel uncomfortable. Go ahead and ponder how far we are from any remotely gender egalitarian reality in this country.
12
Thanks for womansplaining "patriarchy". Liberal men know when they are being thrown under the bus. You're losing liberal men faster than the Little Dutch Boy.
9
"A social system that enables sexual violence"? We have some of the strictest laws in the developed world against sexual crimes including but limited to life long sex offender registries, options for chemical castration of caught pedophile rapists, statutory rape laws, life long prison sentences, etc. On a more personal level, a male trucker showed his genitalia in a disturbing way to my sister while on a family vacation. A group of 10 exclusively male individuals from the rest stop then chased him down and performed a citizen's arrest; he was subsequently convicted of a sex crime for exposure. I have witnessed extreme intolerance of any harassment that women face in partying atmospheres; going so far as the alleged offender being beat up by party guests. So, as for a "social structure that enables sexual violence", I see the exact opposite and rightly so.
Additionally, perpetuating the myth of "the patriarchy" is similar to the conspiratorial overtones expressed by any radical movement (e.g. the Khmer Rouge, Alex Jones, etc). Believing their is an unconscious plot by males across the nation to subjugate, suppress and dominate women is considerably far fetched considering we have female friends, collegeaus, and family members. Do you honestly think we want that?
3
I've never seen a nice guy who was respected by women. Most men learn from a young age that women are attracted and respect guys who are jerks. If your trying to attract women, why act any other way?
7
Not true of me, not true of many lovely women I know. Civility, good manners, courtesy, all still very much in vogue. What kind of women were you looking to meet?
4
I realize that with male privilege that I will never truly understand female vulnerability, but who do these abusive men abuse before their homomones flow and they discover that they can abuse women?
They abuse pubescent and pre-pubescent boys in PE classes in the showers, on the ball courts, during lunch break, and on the way home from school. The same guys who broke my bones went on to abuse women. While I was only raped once, I've never let anyone know about it. I still don't trust men and I don't think I ever will!
Is it my responsibility to speak up against female abuse? (Which I do...)
4
Harvey Weinstein is "utterly common?" "So many people want to believe there are only a few bad men?" "There is no escaping the inappropriate attentions and intentions of men?"
This is the dark downside of the HW affair; absolutist gender politicians will use it to make hay. See, see, they say, you're all Harveys. Its an embarrassment what feminism has been allowed to become, and decent minded people are cowed into printing it, cowed into espousing it.
There's good men and good women; bad men and bad women. There's also straw men like the ones who have been discredited yet appear in this column. Few people still think women "ask" for it, yet the changes in "rape culture" which have been dramatic in the law and in Americans hearts and minds, especially, are ignored by the author.
And God save us from the weasel words of "inappropriate" intentions and attentions (of men of course). Men and women have sexual intentions and pay sexual attention to each other. You aren't living on the planet earth, you're living on the Planet UrAllRapists. Get back in your rocket ship and leave the earth to people who know good and bad is all kinds of colors and both genders.
This kind of man bashing doesn't belong in a newspaper. It's a twisted politics of hate and revenge. Women are
11
Gay's essay presents her self-deception from the first paragraph: her analysis presumes the adoption of the shibboleths of "feminist discourse" including the idea of "rape culture" (and the implication that we don't have individual autonomy in the face of "culture" and are thus all "tainted", casting herself as Torquemada). She bemoans the idea that "men" don't agree with her on first principles, and this closes off any discussion _from the very beginning_: the male reader must submit to the self-evident truth of feminist discourse. If anyone needs to appear with a mirrored box over her head, it's Gay.
10
This is a completely sexist piece. Just look at the graphic going along with the article. Are we to think that the author and/or the Times believe that men are blockheads? Reverse the genders with a similar graphic, and you would have near universal outrage.
11
I encourage all to hear NPR Fresh Air from earlier this week when Terry Gross and Jane Mayer solemnly talk about the evil to women VP Mike Pence brings by not meeting alone with a woman. You would think that’s sound advice if women like Roxanne Gay are to be believed. Don’t forget the Times front page above the fold article and subsequent apology to a woman to settle a libel suit after implying John McCain was having an affair.
2
I know many women well. Growing up, I had few male friends but many platonic female friends. I like women and generally get on well with them.
The worst, meanest things that have happened to the girls, growing up, and the women whom I have known well for many years have been not at the hands of men but at the hands of other females – in the home, at school and in the workplace.
It's true that the worst of the worst humans are almost invariably male. Canadian forensic psychologist Robert Hare estimates that at least one per cent of human males are psychopaths.
Add to the male psychopaths those males with non-psycopathic narcissism personality disorder, and altogether one has likely about ten per cent of the male sex.
Throw in the many males who have other personality disorders, and/or severe schizophrenia, combined with paranoia, intractable to any pharmaceutical therapy or behavioural therapy, and one may have fifteen per cent of the male populace who present a significant and grave threat to other humans, male and female alike.
6
I feel sorry for young men who are enrolled in this professor's classes. How would you like to have a professor who thinks "You, Too" are guilty of committing acts of sexual harassment, or at the very least looked the other way? You are male and, therefore, you are guilty. To these young men I say: "don't plan on a good grade." Sorry about your GPA.
11
As someone who attended a women's study class in college as an attempt to broaden my understanding, I can attest that as a man you are automatically guilty of whatever negative topic is being discussed at the moment.
6
Guilty as charged in the Court of NOW. The all-female jury found me guilty, and the female judge sentenced me to watch several hours of footage of Bella Abzug speeches.
1
Does anyone remember how comfortable the father of a former Stanford University athlete convicted on multiple charges of sexual assault was in saying his son should not have to go to prison for “20 minutes of action”?
That was last year, the same year we elected a self-proclaimed "sexual predator" (on Howard Stern, 2006, in front of a laughing Ivanka) as POTUS.
9
There is no doubt that there are bad men who do bad things to women. But most men don't. And, moreover, women do have responsibility to stand up for themselves. If someone assaults you, call them out. Call your friends. Call the police. Learn how to defend yourself, and if necessary defend yourself violently. Whining, whining, whining is not the way to go ...
4
Depending on the circumstances of the assault, and many other details, any victim of any rapist (including a male victim) may be simply too afraid of further attacks, maybe even death, or harm to loved ones, to immediately have the presence of mind to drop everything & go to the police. Or have you not heard that LE is not always impeccable in its responses? That justice will not always be swift? Have you at all followed the Crosby case? "Learn how to defend yourself" implies that a victim always knows ahead of time they are speaking with a criminal. Kids have been raped by priests, in churches. Were they also "whining"? You may mean well, Yo, but it's really not at all like a scene from a movie, where there's a conveniently placed knife, gun or bludgeon. If you really care, read up on the subject. It's a horrible form of assault & there is a lot of it, happening to men as well as to women & kids.
4
52% of white women enthusiastically support Donald Trump, his sexual aggression, lying, insults and all. Framing this issue as a strictly male versus female battle is statistically false.
The most vigorously anti-Hillary misogynists I encounter are conservative women. Until this is analyzed there is no serious discussion being had. And it is hardly a subtext to point out that these millions of misogynistic women raise their sons to embody their values. Why be surprised that they grow up to be cretins like Weinstein and Trump?
4
A great way to blame all men for the actions of a few is to blame their "culture", or better yet, make it seem like all/most men are part of some pseudo-hidden "rape culture". It's disgraceful, and if anyone applied this standard to attribute violence in poor communities to "Black culture" or promiscuous attire to "Women's Culture", they'd be rightfully called out for bigotry and sexism. But its become fashionable to talk about men in such terms - particularly rich/white men.
I have a better idea. Instead of blaming innocent men and asking them to "step up", how about women do the stepping up? The next time a woman is victimized in such a way, file a criminal complaint instead of taking a large cash payout and keeping quiet. If all/most women did this, people like Harvey Weinstein wouldn't be assaulting dozens of women over decades time. Maybe the cops won't believe the first complaint, or maybe even the second. But by the time the third, fifth, and twelfth complaints come in the predator should be off the street. People like Rose McGowan should save their righteous indignation for a courtroom, not Twitter years later after taking a sexual predator's money to stay quiet.
So instead of generally blaming men and telling them they have to "do more" to solve your problem, how about this: ask women who are victims of sexual assault to stop taking hush money and report the crime as soon as they're able. Taking money to keep quiet only enables the same criminal to strike again.
10
This is the thing we claim to preach to our children and to believe: we are each responsible for our own actions. No matter how enticed or provokes, how we respond is our choice. As a young woman, I wished for a spiked hat pin. I was tired of men asking to see where Jesus hid (I wore a crucifix that was only partially visible.) When I went to report an assault, I explained to the officer that nuns had selected my outfit for the party and he said their current prolific assaulter went for girls in flannel shirts and painters' pants so clothes weren't the issue. And this was in 1977. Yet Ms, Karan still wants to blame how women dress (and has made her public reputation on dressing women.) We have to stop with 'boys will be boys' because, accept it, boys do have to grow up and become real men at some point. And women have to stop doing a Kellyanne who had the nerve to say she manages Trump using her feminine wiles (where does she hide those while dealing with the press?) At some point, hopefully in what remains of my lifetime, men either have to admit that they are run by their little heads and turn running everything over to women (who have proved, pretty well, that we are not controlled by our hormone cycles, much as men might wish,) and crawl into their man caves to play with themselves and leave the rest of the world alone. And women will have to stop measuring their own and each other's worth by how men respond to them. We do feed the monster.
2
Fear is what it's all about.
1
All the men here need to read "The Raw Power of #MeToo" in today's edition.
1
... on pain of what do we "have to"?
4
Good luck Ms Gay in getting men to admit to any mistake. All the men in my circle are busy protesting their innocence or worst bragging about how they have always been pro feminist. Their cluelessness is almost amusing.
5
What is a "DM"? When I google it I get "Drill Machine".
1
Between all the highly insulting stereotyping of men by a professor involved in gender studies, how about some words about the many ambitious, high-ranking women in DA Vance's office who not only supported letting sex predators walk, but facilitated fund raisers for Vance with close associates of people under active investigation. http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/manhattan/cy-vance-returned-19g-pal-...
5
You gotta love the comments from men about "not all men", but then conclude with a sweeping generalistic comment about how all women want aggressive, rich men. You really can't make this stuff up.
10
Not to be pedantic or nothin', but shouldn't all the hand-wringers, point-missers and assorted chancers be wailing I too, not me too? Like, it's not grammatically correct to say Me too wanna signify my right-on-ness, or me too wanna discourse in jargon and hype. Really, it's: I, too, wanna be a knee jerk.
4
Sexual harassment and assault happens to men, too.
5
Are men so dangerous?
1
Keep up the witch-hunting, liberals. With every diatribe against "all men," with every assertion of "rape culture" derived from the most ridiculous realms of radical academic theory, you produce a backlash that strengthens Trump and the conservative grip on government.
11
What she said.
2
Many of us are around any of this sort of thing and have never been involved in it, so I'd really appreciate the New York Times, and all of these alarmist column writers, to back off the men little bit.
3
And like clockwork here come all the men making this about THEIR feelings. "I'm not a bad guy" "don't lump all men together". It's lame and tired. I can guarantee that every single man on this thread has at one point in his life made a woman feel uncomfortable. Period. You don't have to be a rapist or a stalker for that to be the case. How can soooo many women have sooo many experiences and yet all the men hide their hands behind their backs and look the other way as if this isn't about them. Stop holding yourselves accountable. Stop playing the "nice guy" card so that you don't have to deal with your behavior or the behavior of men you know. Stop being complicit. Period.
30
I know you're going to find this truly astounding but I'm a white male and at several points in my life women have made "me" feel uncomfortable. I've never been able to hold these women "accountable" for their behavior. So I really get how you feel.
4
The reason so many women have been exposed to behaviors like this is because a small percentage of men act like this. The vast majority of men are law abiding and good natured individuals. This is not acknowledged by you or this author. Additionally, your position portrays all women as wholely good natured who never have ever propagated harassment or any negative action/ behavior. This is patently false.
1
Yeah, I've made women feel uncomfortable many times. I have held doors for them and insulted their inner feminist and been yelled at for it. I have come around a corner on a dark street at 2am in a leather coat and terrified a woman until I said "good evening". At work they hear me on the phone in a deep, angry voice trying to motivate other companies to do what they are suppose to do and they think since I am their boss I am angry with them. Even though I have only once raised my voice to an employee. I can't be responsible for what goes on in the mind of other people. All I can is be responsible for my ACTIONS. Walking drunk women home, not dating two at a time, leaving when people are too drunk, taking women to the police at 3am, listening when they talk about the horrible things other men have done. There are 3 billion men on the planet, they range from totally horrible to absolutely nice. Which end of the spectrum do young, single women flock to? Hint, it's not the nice guys. I am NOT complicit. But YOU are unfair. Cheers.
9
I'm feeling cheated. If we're to be told that all men are rapists, shouldn't it involve someone descending an escalator and a campaign announcement?
3
At first, I thought this column was totally ridiculous. But then I realized it provides wonderful insight into how Donald Trump was elected. Anti-white male victim-mongering creates a backlash among otherwise reasonable white men; they are pushed to vote for someone like Trump as the lesser of two evils.
9
In every case where the veil is lifted on obscene behavior between human beings so we can gut it and irradicate it the defenses of denial, suppression, redirection, distraction and “poor me” rise to thwart the necessary good that rises from truth and right action. Stop decrying the messengers and attack the problems linked to perverse human behaviors.
6
Thank you Ms. Gray for this example of misandry, intended, or worse, unintended. Substitute for "Men", Muslims in the situation of terrorism, Mexicans, in relation to crime, etc. and the NYT community would and have loudly protested - correctly I might add. It would seem the author of this op-ed and Donald Trump have a lot more in common than I guess either one would like to admit.
12
Weinstein is the exception, not the rule. It´s not me or us, men.
7
Vilify every single man ever.
That's certainly one way to promote a cause...
9
Ah, how quickly so many commenting on this article find ways to distance themselves from any thought as to how they might be perpetuating or diminishing sexual harrassment and assault.
Denial, push back, misdirection, attacking the author - they protest way too much.
6
If you are a good man, and speak up when other men misbehave, why do you think this article is directed at you? It says "Men should be good and speak up." It does not say "No men ever behave or speak up." Where are the commenters getting this indignation from?
8
I am a man, and I hate to disappoint you, but I'm not taking the fall for the billionaire 1% Hollywood sex offender Harvey Weinstein. You are weirdly and obviously letting Harvey Weinstein off the hook by claiming the problem is the category "MEN" or "RAPE CULTURE" rather than one Harvey Weinstein. The simple fact is, I have never "cornered women in narrow office hallways or made lewd comments to co-workers or refused to take no for an answer or worn a woman down by guilting her into sex ." It's not because I'm desperate to be identified as a "good guy" or care what you think of me. It's the simple truth. For an academic, your crude gender essentialism: "WOMEN this" and "MEN that" is appallingly primitive and intellectually lazy. When you say "women" as a category, for whom do you presume to speak? Somali women, elderly Jewish women in Brooklyn, Uyghur women in China, or African-American millennial women in DC? To arrogate and conflate the diversity of women's experiences on the earth into a binary category is simplistic and reductive, and absurdly presumptuous for a privileged first world academic. In kind, to conflate "men" with 1% Hollywood sex offender Harvey Weinstein is simply fatuous.
23
Wow. This is deeply disturbing. Don't stereotype me in your "rape culture" bias. This is perhaps the most twisted Op-Ed I have read in the NYT in a while, and it offends on so many levels. It's reverse Breitbart. I'm thinking what does it say about the author?
22
This is about extremely elite people, one of whom abused his power and may have committed crimes. The others are also extremely elite beautiful people who for the most part knew everything andcovered up his crimes and smiled and pretended to love him. They did this because they wanted to have movie star lifestyles, money and prestige. I frankly had no idea Harvey Weinstein even existed before this story. None of this has anything remotely to do with me, or the millions of common men and women who work together every day. That is a lie, one you are all buying into.
7
So naive. I know folks who were sexually harassed working at the postboffice for God’s sake. This is NOT an elite crime. This is a crime and experience of every woman and young girl in America. I learned at age 12 to walk backwards to keep an eye on the 30 year old creeps who were so called “friends” or neighbors. It happens to all of us. You men are so purposely naive. If you haven’t experienced it, it must not exist. The sheer hubris!
7
Sal, I understand your reaction, because I agree with you that Roxane Gay is overstating her case. I don't know enough of her history; neither do you. Perhaps she has had a particularly arduous journey that has brought her to these conclusions.
However, I would caution you about the statistical evidence, that is quite well-established, for the incidence of rapes & sexual assaults among American women. It is broadly accepted in criminological research that at least 1 in 5 US women -- 20% -- will at some point in her life experience rape or a sexual assault of considerable aggression. Sociologists believe the actual numbers may be higher, perhaps as high as 1 in 4; some even suggest that the prognosis is even worse for the future. That is, unless we all take this blight on human interactions seriously enough to turn the trend around.
No, rape is not "about extremely elite people." This particular individual, yes, has everyone's attention now trained on the problem. But every time you read about a teacher (or priest) having sex with someone's kid, that's not about "movie star lifestyles, money and prestige." Abuse of power, position, authority by people with the opportunity to harm other people's children, spouses, siblings, parents is not limited to Hollywood. But Hollywood's willingness to pursue what Tom Hanks calls "a sea change" in attitudes, norms, expectations & accountability will most certainly act as a catalyst & perhaps help all victims, everywhere, Prevent Abuse.
10
The way to start a productive conversation is not to tar and feather a whole group. All this column accomplishes is pushing men away from any real conversation as it blames ALL men for a problem that SOME men are creating. This type of thinking is so offensive, so wrong, and so sexist against men... only political correctness and its illogical hypocrisy allow it to be published. Imagine that Ms. Gay replaced "men" in her column with "black men" or "white women" - the Times would never allow it to see the light of day because it would be deemed racist / sexist or just plain stupid. But she can tar and feather all men... because it's one of the last socially acceptable prejudices. #SAD
13
While this Weinstein affair is nothing short of disgusting, t alsot should be noted that over 50% of white women in this country voted for a known misogynist and philanderer.
5
Yeah, white women aren't the only women in this country, and it also means 50% didn't.
6
News Flash men get harassed by females also. It does happen to females more but to men also. woman gan be just as big of pigs as men. It should be about harassment/assult in general.
7
Mostly when men are harassed it is by (shocker) other men.
Also, as human beings you should refer to the opposite sex as women, not "females."
2
I was in a teacher program and began receiving phone calls from my mentor teacher. Eventually there were requests for meetings outside of school. I became uncomfortable and told the school's administration. I was removed from the MA program and placed in a non-teaching track. Fact is, she is still a teacher, but I am not.
In 1995, I was arrested after a bar brawl. I found myself handcuffed, and alone with a cop. I asked her to please open the door to the van because I was uncomfortable with what she was doing. She didn't. She laughed.
I worked as a server in a restaurant and a manager grabbed my crotch (among other things) in plain view of about 15 other employees (she continued this inappropriate behavior the rest of the night). I quit.
#metoo.
My question: am In a predator or a victim? In this debate, it seems I am always gendered and made the former. I am confused. I don't feel like a predator. If anything I try to be an ally. Equality/respect are just too important to me.
So, what am I doing about it? I am not silent in "locker room" situations any longer. I am teaching my children to be brave not only for yourself but also for those who are afraid to speak for themselves; I am teaching my children that there are ethics in matters of desire and power, and that consent is sexy. I teaching my children that in order to have dignity for oneself you have to treat ALL others with dignity. I am teaching my children that if you have are afraid, start by talking to me.
9
A lot more can and should be done and sadly, the world is full of fratboys. That said, men and women will never be the same. A female friend asked how I would feel to be on the recieviing end of women's attention and advances. If that's as far as it goes, I'd like to give it a try.
1
And how might you feel if you were approached by someone you found unattractive or even repulsive? Maybe a 250-lb biker dude who found you "cute?" Still willing to volunteer for that attention?
4
Years ago, I was sexually assaulted. My date was giving me a back rub, which I was enjoying immensely. Quietly got up, got undressed, tried to tackle me onto the bed.
The next day she called and apologized. Said she was humiliated. I told her not to worry and we went on with our friendship.
It almost goes without saying that there are jerks in our midst. Being a jerk is not gender-specific. Having spent many cumulative months in men's locker rooms, I can say I only once heard someone joking about rape. The other men looked at him as though he were from another planet. It was very offensive.
Those who remind us to watch out for one another, to protect the weaker and marginalized among us, do good service. But don't -- just don't -- give legs to this "all men are rapists, or at least rape enablers" lie, or anything that approaches it. I would put myself in harm's way to protect a woman against sexual assault, as would most men I know. I refuse to accept blame for some jerk's behavior, because we both happen to happen to share a Y chromosome in common. Stereotypes and groupthink are the real enemy here.
12
When I was seventeen a neurologist had me alone in his office, as ordinary neurologists do every day, whe he announced that by examining my rectum he could discern if I liked spicy food.
The thing that gets to me 33 years later is how bloody ordinary it was. The car accident that brought me to his office resulted in a lawsuit as the man who hit my car blew .28 when breathalyzer at the scene. The attorney representing the interests of his insurer asked me what I was wearing when the accident occurred. How could this be pertinent to the matter at hand? The drunk couldn’t see me or the road, apparently.
Look around, men. Look to your left, look to your right, one of you and possibly all three have harassed women at some point. The sad thing is that you may not recognize it.
11
Been in business for 30 years and never heard any anything like this. Not even rumors. The closest thing was a guy in our office was downloading porn over the company network onto his company laptop. Not breaking the law and certainly not sharing it with other employees. Anyway, he was fired and I'm sure for him it was a source of deep shame. I can pretty much say I have never seen a women demeaned in any way in the workplace. So I believe these accounts and find them horrifying but hard to get outraged because I see so many workplaces and never seen anything remotely like this.
6
Like rape, it is most often practiced behind closed doors.
Question is, why could you not figure that out ?
How disconnected are you from the women in your work life?
This is a frequent occurrence.
4
Along with pain avoidance, pleasure seeking, and survival, sex is one of the four programs of the human mind. Left alone, this sex program would provide all the incentive necessary for sexual pleasure and reproduction. But we don't leave it alone. By tricking our "survival" program about what is supposed to survive, we transform sex into a tool of our ego to be used to further whatever the distorted ego demands.
Until we build the computer program of the human mind and come to understand the role and the bastardization of our "survival" program by society, we will continue all sorts of misbehavior and mischief.
See:
RevolutionOfReason.com
TheRogueRevolutionist.com
2
"There is a sexual component, yes, but mostly it’s about someone exerting his or her will over another and deriving pleasure and satisfaction from that exertion. We cannot forget this, or the women and men who have been harassed or assaulted but aren’t 'conventionally attractive' will be ignored, silenced, or worse, disbelieved."
Truer words were never spoken. For example: I recently had trouble sleeping one night and went out for a smoke, ran into a bartender I knew from a local bar and was invited to stop in for a drink. I was, though sleepless, tired, and did not want to engage socially with anyone; so rather than changing into nice clothes, putting on makeup, combing my hair, etc., I intentionally went in as horrible-lookingly as I could. I wore no makeup, my hair was a mess, and I kept my heavy winter coat on the entire time I was in the bar because I had pyjamas on under it. Still, in this thoroughly unattractive state, within minutes a man sat right next to me and simply would not leave me alone, got really close to my face when talking to me, kept finding reasons to touch my hand, my shoulder, my hair...Finally a friend of his dragged him out of the bar. I thought, Great, now I can finish my drink in peace and get the bleep out of here.
No such luck. Less than a minute after my first harasser left, he was replaced by a second. I chugged as fast as I could, and fled.
6
Predators and Victims
It's a lot easier to see the world in black and white terms. ALL women are victims of "rape culture" and ALL men are enabling "rape culture" if they don't stop it from happening.
This is a great diversion from the complexity of actual life. Vast number of people are victims of various kinds of predatory behavior. Unfortunately, much of this has to do with the way our culture tolerates vast amounts of inequality that, in turn, leads to despair, illness, violence and incarceration.
Weinstein was not just a fine example of the "male predator"; he was an even better example of the POWERFUL predator who can get away because he has so much power. I'm sure that he screwed the lives of many people without any sex being forced on them.
But that's an inconvenient discussion since we don't want to talk about economic and political inequality, just race and gender. Much safer.
10
Gay never said "all" anyone. Only angry commenters such as yourself insist on using the word "all," instead of listening to the words Gay ACTUALLY used.
7
Much safer only so long as there are still environments where it is OK to sound off about people based on their race and gender.
I'm thinking that the following are all examples of pre-Trump thinking: (1) the sort of open and notorious racism and sexism on the left that has been going on for about 40 years now; (2) the dog whistling (and, thinking about Rush Limbaugh talking about women, sometimes open and notorious talking) about race and gender on the right that's been going on in the modern era at least since Nixon's Southern Strategy; and (3) peddling the idea on the center-right that tax cuts and deregulation are the prescription for most of our economic problems.
My thinking here does not conflict with the fact that history was what it was or the idea that we need to acknowledge history and take it into account as needed.
It's disappointing that so many men are interpreting this essay as an attack on men and not a cry for help in tackling a serious problem that is impacting millions of fellow citizens. The healthiest response I have heard was a young man on one of the podcasts I listen to who said that this all has him thinking about his interactions with women in the past and wondering, "Was that creepy?"
Look, I'm old and I remember laughing at gay jokes. I'm ashamed to say that it took finding out that someone dear to me was gay for me to clean up my act. I was never mean to anyone personally but by laughing I reinforced the cruelty of those who were. Now I try to mouth off at the first sign of that crap. It's made me unpopular in some circles. Big deal.
What can you do? Second guess yourself before you speak or act. (It's not that hard, women, and gay people and minorities do it all the time.) Speak up at the first sign of dismissive or predatory language or actions even if it annoys other men. Tell them to cut it out. Talk to you sons. Teach them (and you have to do this at earlier and earlier ages) not to disparage girls' looks, or rate their "hotness", or brag about sexual conquests, or do anything else that depersonalizes women and girls. Above all, teach them that doing the right thing is more important than fitting in with the other boys. It's how you become a good man.
Guilt is an unpleasant feeling but it can be a motivator. Use it.
21
The author missed the most important thing men can do. Teach your sons to respect women as equals.
9
I have wondered for many years why when we have this problem don't we create a more honorable attitude toward sex workers. Their work can help release the pressures that build up in our sex-obsessed society. Our various media push sex and violence constantly because it sells and our culture is also cash-obsessed.
3
The need for greater male awareness, sensitivity and respect is acute and of the highest priority. I still struggle, however, with how millions of American women rewarded an admitted sexual predator/abuser with the presidency. Especially when the alternative was one of the most qualified candidates ever. And I hope that the women who fearlessly told their stories of Trumpian abuse will find the support to pursue his prosecution. It would be an heroic deed that would send a valuable and (hopefully) transformational message.
4
Our culture, particularly as respects the roles of men and women vis-a-vis one another, has changed radically over the past 50 years. What was acceptable, even expected, 50 years ago is now taboo. And it doesn't help that we are no longer the monolithic society we once approximated; different behavior is expected among different groups. We get that.
It's easy to see that neither violence nor using one's economic power is ever acceptable, but at what point does avid courting become harassment?
We're told that harassment begins when the attention is 'unwelcome.' We wish we could read your minds. Behavior that is apparently okay from some guys, is not from others, and guys may not be too perceptive, so we don't necessarily know what's welcome and what's not. Men are expected, usually, to be the instigators. Indeed for a lot of women, aggression is attractive.
I'm not saying we can't do better, but let's not pretend that it's easy.
2
Lots of male comments that deny, to some extent or another, that there is a problem. While I don't defend this indefensible attitude, nor the underlying inexcusable aggression against women, I do believe that articles and public discussion about this topic should not only condemn the men who perpetrate these actions, but also to send a positive message to those men who want to make a difference. I suspect there are a lot of good men out there who are silent, want to do the right thing, and are waiting for the right invitation to do so. To those good men, let's give a positive message of encouragement. And, lest I am accused of pandering to the overly sensitive feelings of these men (a perfectly reasonable point), let's remember what our ultimate objective is. I am merely suggesting what I think is the most effective means of achieving that objective.
5
The Me Too we have had enough wave, isn't just about the crimes committed against women, it is also the culture including all the minor offenses that we all endure and brush off. Does the freedom with which some men believe they have a right to simply grab any part of a women's body, as they please, lead to future more serious crimes? I rather doubt anyone has done a study on that. Of course not all men act this way, but enough do, so that all women have stories to tell.
2
Sometime in my late twenties I went on a river kayaking trip with a group of people. I rode up with a woman about my age, who I found friendly and interesting, but for whom I had no romantic interest.
We ended up sleeping under the stars on a beautiful Sierra night, and as we were drifting off to sleep she turned to me and said, 'If I fall asleep before you, don't try anything funny.'
I spent most of the night awake, seething with anger over her comment. I'm sure I must have been pretty cool towards her that weekend, even when she was friendly and occasionally flirtatious. I wanted nothing to do with a woman who'd make that assumption about me.
But as I talked about the incident with both male and female friends in the weeks that followed, I was surprised by their interpretations. A few (both men and women) suggested that she was actually saying the opposite: She wanted me to try something. (I never take a 'no' to mean 'yes' in these matters. Ever!) Others thought that she'd had some bad experiences before, which after some thought made a lot more sense. I eventually lost my anger over the matter.
As I think back on it in the present discussions, it seems a microcosm of the two very different worlds that men and women inhabit: I was insulted, but she was afraid; I was sure no man would really sexually assault a sleeping woman, and she wasn't sure she could trust anyone.
I'm sorry it took me all these years to understand.
7
I think a lot of the problem is that men typically don't experience the harassment that women do, and so they can't imagine a) that it actually happens, or b) just how serious it is. Early in my career, I was asked by a superior to meet him on a Saturday night in the office, to "work." At the time, I thought it was a come-on, which in itself would have been ok, if badly handled. The problems started when I refused his advances. He then started a campaign to smear my reputation and get me fired. That was the abuse of power. This incident was more than 20 years ago, but he and I work in the same industry, and occasionally bump into each other. The tension and animosity is still there. So these things can follow you around forever.
7
All these years, youth through adulthood, in passing women unknown to me in the streets, the hallways, the beach...wherever, we have often exchanged glances. Sometimes with a smile, sometimes a nod, sometimes a neutral look, sometimes just a passing eye and a look away...all kinds of variations of a “casual” acknowledgment. I never thought much of it. Lately when this happens, though, and not always but sometimes, I think I see something I wasn’t aware of before - wariness. Perhaps that was always there - it’s not something new, it’s just something I didn’t register. All this time not realizing that what I took to be just a friendly recognition or nothing more than a casual, almost unseeing glance, and certainly meaning nothing more than that, could be fraught with something else to the person on the other side of the seemingly innocuous occurrence...
It’s saddening.
Certainly it’s not right to tar all members of either gender with a broad, indiscriminate brush, but being aware of the perils and burdens that others bear will be helpful to us all.
2
I surely do agree, as a woman who hit the big 60 this year and has been in the work world for 44 years, that "It’s time for men to step up" and "I do not dream of utopia, but I do dare to dream of something better than this world we are currently living in." Let's get going on this. AT the same time, the criticism leveled at a few writers on the topic, who dared to put something on women about their appearance - like dressing like the St. Pauli Girl - or actions - going to boss's hotel room or drinking to inebriation with the guys - is very much about where we are not YET. And haven't been able to get to YET. Unless and until we do - and you are right that it is time to move this campaign along - women DO have to protect themselves and check themselves. I hate it. And I'm ready to not have to do that anymore.
1
I've seen extremes from both sides: men who disregard women's rights and engage in rape culture and even attempting rape to women who have made baseless accusations, sometimes, possibly, to lay blame on a stranger instead of the real attacker she knows.
If most of us could simply agree that men, no matter what their status, have no right to commit non-consensual acts toward women and women have no right to falsely accuse, and also that men have a responsibility to stand up to women when other men bully them, maybe we could make some progress.
1
ok. So we all agree that violent or coercive sex is an horrific crime and offenders of any sex should be prosecuted and appropriately shunned. And all of us should be entitled to a "safe" workplace. But when we get to women who are offended by certain looks or comments, i would ask women the following question. do you always react to the same behavior as offended, whether the perpetrator is attractive or not? celebrity or not? powerful or not? Because if that is the case, spell out what those things are and "good men" will stop doing it (and to some degree you have, and we thank you). But if a look is offensive from the janitor, but not George Clooney, then what you are saying is that men have to know beforehand how you feel about us individually. I know you think we can tell, but really we can't, not all the time. If it is ok for some of your co workers to share off color jokes, but not others, just tell us ahead of time which ones we are. Most of us want to be "good guys" want to behave in a manner that welcomes other people, but mind reading should not be an issue. Nor should non communicated personal female preference. And finally, please remember that all of us are harassed at times at work, but that does not necessarily make it sexual harassment.
1
Yes. We all know the ways in which women have been abused and hurt and exploited and marginalized by now. I would like to hear stories from men who do these things. I would like to hear why they think they are entitled to sex and to women's bodies as though they are objects they can buy. Where do they get these ideas? Are they raised that way or do they just see the behavior of powerful men around them and mimic it? What would make them stop?
It's laudable to encourage victims to speak out about their experiences but it would be educational to hear from the men who victimize others. I can't fathom it and would like to understand how to stop it.
5
Not discounting male power, responsibility or collusion,but in their conscious or unconscious desire to curry male favor, many women remain or even pile on when women are being denigrated. Often these same women would never think to remain silent at racial slurs, but are comfortable and accepting of the same treatment of their own sex. Whole books have been written on why, and yet sisterhood is in practice very elusive.
Let's stop lumping all men into the same group with the Weinsteins and Trumps of the world. Many, many men despise them, too.
Yes, let's all work to fix sexual harassment, it is appalling at all levels, but let's not just set up a system where any woman can accuse any man of harassment anonymously and without proof. Let's not create an injustice to solve an injustice.
5
EVERY BAD MAN Who engages in sexual or other types of violence, was carried by and born of a woman. I'm watching a TV Series on streaming video about how the FBI started its Behavioral Crimes Unit to solve murders by understanding the behavioral profile of the unidentified perpetrator. I was surprised to learn that one of the discoveries about men who kill women is that many, if not all, of them were abused by their mothers, whether physically, emotionally and/or sexually. I'm raising what I know will be viewed by readers as an outrageous issue, because Roxane Gay wrote the piece from the perspective that women who are survivors of sexual abuse did nothing wrong. Undoubtedly, no woman--for that matter, no man or child--ever deserves to be abused. Least of all sexually. But to assert that there is a total disconnect between the impact of women on man, in the context of the mother child relationship is factually inaccurate. Yes, men who perpetrate violence toward women may indeed be displacing their rage against their mothers or women, who had nothing to do with the violence, that taught male perpetrators the most destructive of lessons about violence. Sometimes, as in Alfred Hitchcock's horror movie, Psycho, a man actually kills his mother. How do we stop violence toward women--toward everyone? In Denmark they have a great system of support for expectant and new mothers where a community nurse visits them and forms groups of mothers who meet often. It's a good start!
2
CORRECTION:
I've seen extremes from both sides: men who disregard women's rights and engage in rape culture and even attempting rape to women who have made baseless accusations, sometimes, possibly, to lay blame on a stranger instead of the real attacker she knows.
If most of us could simply agree that men, no matter what their status, have no right to commit non-consensual acts toward women and women have no right to falsely accuse, and also that men have a responsibility to stand up FOR women when other men bully them, maybe we could make some progress.
1
We are a sick society built on the semblance of puritanical mores with our human sexual desires and expression pushed into the darkness of our shadow side. Our culture teaches men from childhood to reduce gender differences to sexual expression, and to objectify women as sex objects to be fantasized over and used if possible. Men have never been taught the emotional and verbal vocabulary to interact with women as fully equal peers and more importantly as friends without sexual overtones. Advertisers use sex to sell their wares because it works. Churches cling to thousand year old interpretations of scripture to withhold true equality to women and objectify them as subservient to men, even in churches that ordain women. Women are correspondingly taught that their desirability derives from their objectified sexual appeal and encouraged to maximize that aspect of their female identity. They are taught to hide the full expression of their embodied human identity, especially their intellect and drive so as not to be seen as too competitive with men or too imposing or challenging to their male peers. Every male/female encounter thus becomes a sexual assault waiting to happen.
5
"sexual violence is about power". Not really, most rapists don't hit nor wound their victims if they can avoid to do so. Except for rare sadistic personalities, sexual violence is about satisfying a sexual urge without getting a consent, and sometimes fantasying that the women will eventually be okay with that. And, yes, drinking too much at a party increases the risks or being raped. We have to enforce a culture of respect for women, but telling girls to be careful with what they drink of wear is not obscurantism.
1
Nope. I commented earlier with an example of this not being the case. Long story short, I went somewhere looking intentionally ugly because I did not want to socialize and was still harrassed by not one but TWO men in a row! They just wanted to force me to give them my attention. They cannot possibly have been aroused.
1
We are not all knuckle dragging, domineering boors. I will be the first to admit that there are plenty, but we are not all that way. Our Mothers (and in some cases, Fathers) raised us better than this.
If one follows the Golden Rule (do unto others...) you will not be a sexist, racist, homophobic, misogynist, whatever. One does not have to follow any faith or any particular faith to employ this and make it part of who you are. I may have escaped my Conservative Baptist upbringing, but the Golden Rule makes sense and has stayed with me.
I would never blame the victim, but from the other side it seems as if many women set themselves up in situations that make such things more likely. In my High School and College days it seems as if many - if not most- of the "good girls" were drawn to the bad boys like a moth to the flame of a candle. The 'good boys" just did not excite them or something.
What I find hard to accept is that any self respecting woman would tolerate such behavior by anyone. If the price of casting is the casting couch then you vote with your feet- you do not consent and then come back for more. How many of the women who have identified themselves as this man's victims were well known and followed around by media like a puppy? They could have picked up the phone and called any TV station, network, magazine or newspaper and outed this behavior. That is what puzzles me. Why would anyone tolerate it?
3
Women tolerate such behavior for a number of reasons. They fear retaliation, they are "carefully taught" from a very young age to bury such traumatic experiences and to carry on in silence, they hate to make waves by outing this behavior, they feel ashamed that they were victimized, and they fear that they will be excoriated by others for "allowing" this to happen to them.
5
One reason men get defensive is that we are tired of all being treated as potential rapists. It isn't that we "panic because we don't want to lumped in with the bad men. " We panic because all our lives we have already been lumped in with them. Because we are all assumed to be violent and bestial creatures (as the article puts it) so "frenzied with sexual need" that we cannot control our "baser impulses." Men are tired of being seen that way. We've already been told about all the horrible things we are capable of, again and again. This article is just more of the same.
4
I refuse to be held responsible for the sins of others, my grandfathers or such none sense. As a human I am responsible for my actions, and only my actions. Today unfortunately we live in a time of mass guilt and mass blame. In my 55 or so years I have seen the sexual revolution which I never bought into, had women laugh at the fact that I was not forward with my sexual advances. I was brought up to be respectful and let a lady set the pace of any relationship. Are there perverts and mindless animals out there...yes. But when an animal is rabid you put it down, not the entire herd. This mind set is just simplistic and hateful. It is just a symptom of a society which refuses to embrace personal responsibility and true justice
5
I've been married 40 years. A few years ago I told my husband that between the ages of 17 and 35, I felt like I was being stalked anytime I went out in public. My kind, respectful, loving husband said "You were."
10
I resent being told my reaction to instances of sexual violence. I also feel like Roxane Gay is writing in a condescending tone. Any intelligent male is perfectly aware of the protective behaviors and strategies women adopt in order to avoid predatory sexual advances. We're all perfectly aware of buddy systems and whisper circles. Something is wrong if you've survived adolescence without even a remote understanding of these patterns.
A normal intelligent male learns to operate within these restrictions. A deviant male circumvents them through dishonesty, power and/or violence. These realities are not lost on the entirety of the male gender. Don't act like men are oblivious. Presenting a "boys will be boys" stereotype of perceived male understanding actually perpetuates the falsehood's use. Inappropriate and/or violent men know what they're doing is wrong. The stereotype is just an excuse to normalize their behavior.
4
Ten or so years ago, my mom and Dad accompanied me to a friend’s barbecue. A bunch of her friends and their family’s friends were there. My mom pointed out a man who was the resident psychiatrist at the nursing home she worked at when she was a young rec therapist just out of college. Without batting an eye, she told me that, one day, he called her into his office and asked if she’d like to go away with him to the Bahamas for a weekend. This was a married man speaking from a position of authority. My mom declined.
What struck me was not just that it had happened, but that she was so casual about it. Eventually, I could tell it made her uncomfortable, so we left.
If any other men read this, I wonder what they think about it. Do they recoil in disgusting? Do they roll their eyes? I mean, how would they feel if it happened to their mom or wife or daughter?
I was irate. I wanted to go over to him and start something, but it would have upset my mom. Still, I would like our paths to cross before he croaks. I think what Ms. Gay is sort of clumsily getting at is that this should be the way all men feel when this happens. If you don’t—if you dismiss it as no big deal—then, yeah, you’re part of the problem.
8
Amen.
1
I'm sure pretty girls showed in droves at Harvey Weinstein parties. I suppose it must all have been coincidence?! I'm a men and never went to a party held by a widely know Hollywood abuser. So sorry, this is not about me and I can't help you. If you go to where trouble is, you know what the deal is before you even arrive there. For Weinstein knows what the deal is, he counts on your cooperation and understanding and that is why he was able to do it for so many years. I can't pick a fight that you chose to run into and that I'm not even knowing about.
5
Why are so many commenters (men) inserting the word "all" into Ms. Gay's argument? Could it be a tactic for making her argument look hysterical and witch-hunt-y, and thereby negating the need to take it seriously? The word is not there, and I don't see it implied.
How I read her exhortation is "There are plenty of men who have witnessed this kind of behavior and looked the other way; check to see if you are, or have been, one of them, and if you are, then admit it."
That was my take, anyway. (Also my take: you don't have to go around beating your breast and wailing "mea culpa" if you look back and realize there was something you did or ignored; just admit it to yourself so you can stop.)
Nobody is calling you an abuser just because you're male. There's no need to cry "demonization" when demonization is not happening.
15
I agree with you: "Also my take: you don't have to go around beating your breast and wailing "mea culpa" if you look back and realize there was something you did or ignored; just admit it to yourself so you can stop.)" But this editorial nearly IS calling men abusers due to their maleness. The numbers are overwhelmingly skewed: it is, I believe, a very small # of men that cross the line.
1
What is far less reported and talked about is the under-reported number of predatory women who can easily hide behind yelling "sexual harrassment" and see a man squirm. I was such a victim, as a number of my colleagues. It is a process of guilty till proven guilty, no matter the facts.
Tawana Brawley. Duke Lacrosse. Rolling stone.
When women's advocates want to have an honest discussion about this issue, give us a call. But this hate speech by Ms Gay certainly helps nothing.
7
To the men who play the tired "but I'm not one of those men" song:
Just because you personally never lynched anyone doesn't mean that Jim Crow didn't happen.
Just because you personally never raped anyone, doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
There is no comparison between a women smiling to get out of a ticket and a man exerting power over a woman who works for him to make sexual advances. The police officer can still write the ticket and laugh off the attempt or cite the woman for attempted bribery.
A woman whose job is at stake cannot laugh it off. A lone woman walking home from work may not be able to overpower the man stalking her.
Until men wake up and check the bad apples, this will continue. That is the point.
8
What strawman poppycock. Is anyone suggesting rape doesn't happen? Or that sexual harassment doesn't happen? It is everyone's job to check the bad apples, starting with law enforcement that, notably, is overwhelmingly male.
2
Every single word of that essay was relevant and true. Sadly it's because you've fought this fight and have been immersed in this horror for some time. Thank you for spelling things out so perfectly and succinctly. And please, keep educating.
4
It seems to me that a lot of men don't even realize what constitutes sexual harassment or assault. If they did, they would see it everywhere, because IT IS EVERYWHERE.
Men, imagine if you were at work about to present a report to your bosses and a person comes up and rubs themselves on you, then pretends it was "nothing." Might that influence your ability to do your presentation? Imagine you are in a crowd watching a parade with your family and a person starts touching your body. There is nowhere for you to move and you hate to start yelling about it because there are children around and it would be humiliating for you as well. Imagine you stop to pick up lunch at a fast food restaurant. A stranger asks you out on a date and you decline. The stranger follows you outside and watches you get in your car, then gets in their car and follows you down the street. You have to go out of your way to lose them.
These are not theoretical experiences.
Now imagine that you were a bystander. Were you looking? Did you see?
Please stop saying it wasn't me and start looking out for women.
10
All this talk about sexual assault misses the more important point - it’s a CRIME. We need to shift the focus of this conversation so that criminals GO TO JAIL.
Why are so many women saying #MeToo? Why is it that so many perpetrators are wandering around free? Why is it that we have a legal system that does such a disservice to victims? How come there are no consequences for companies that all men lot - repeatedly - commit crimes?
While all of us are crying Me Too our lawmakers are ignoring us, again. Or worse, political opponents will use this against us. We need laws holding companies accountable for the actions of executives like Weinstein. Even if they’re the boss, even if they’re rich. Otherwise this will never end.
3
Dear Ms. Gay,
I understand your points, but I must insist, I'm not saying women are hysterical, humorless, or harridans. I'm the other kind of guy.
Whenever I have seen a man abusing a woman, I intervene and put a stop to it. Once to a large stranger, who backed down once I explained the hammer in my hand. Once to a fighting mad drunk, who backed down when I insisted I merely asked him for a light, while the woman pulled free and fled.
I'm the other kind of guy, so don't you worry, my kind will win this fight. Words do nothing to deter rapists, sexual assaulters, pedophiles, and so on. Only violence and pain is a certain way to dissuade them.
Sorry for being so harsh but I wanted to toss in another line of thought there.
3
It is a well known fact that way too many women are being harassed in both public and private space, and this issue has to be answered so the life is made easier to them.
It is an excellent idea to confront the rape culture that has ridden most of our civilization (and others too) and men should contribute to changing this culture by "offering testimony" and "come forward and say 'me too”.
The problem is that R. Gay doesn't ask them to say that they feel concerned "too" by violence against women but demands them to confess thus making them ALL rapists or potential rapists… In this article there is not hint that ALL men are not rapists or would-be rapists. Nor does she suggest that some men (certainly not as many as women) have been harassed and sexually assaulted by women in position of power at work or, more often, in their family. She may consider this a different issue and that may well be.
Putting ALL men in "the same box" and ask them to confess crimes they didn't commit has a name : manipulation by shaming.
Readers should be reminded that fascism in Europe started with the same by targeting a group, Jews, the culprits of all the troubles of the time.
This witch hunt mentality has been well described in Hawthorne's novel and it is a shame that, in those dark times when a President finds his legitimacy among some voters by demagoguery, lies and targeting groups, a woman fuels this mentality.
It may well be that the first victims of this all males targeting will be women.
2
I get it, Roxanne. All men are bad to the bone and probably always will be. So I'm all men and can't stop being so. I've just tuned you out.
5
You don't get it.
1
It seems that a large number of men can't imagine that their attention is unwanted by women.
11
You accurately point out that sexual violence is about power. There is a sexual component, yes, but mostly it’s about someone exerting his or her will over another and deriving pleasure and satisfaction from that exertion. The human mind is programmed for sex, but not for exerting influence over another. This we are taught in our societies. The human mind was initially programmed to cooperate with women for sex, but through the influences of society, this was turned into control.
See:
RevolutionOfReason.com
TheRogueRevolutionist.com
3
Convoluting power and sex has many more implication that this pseudo-foucaldianz theory that all things is power, so much that it impossible to discuss it here.
It is perfectly understandable that women feel mostly "powerless" against men who harass them.
However this does not mean the reverse is true and that men harass women to feel their power over another human being.
Sex drive and its urge is certainly the main culprit.
But there is more to it : as we can surmise that the search for power is equally shared by all human beings, hence equally by men and women, notwithstanding their different paths to get to it, one may ask why not as many women sexually harass men as men do with women.
Hence, no : sexual urge is not just another component of rape, it is it's main feature.
This should by no mean excuse rapists and all other males harassing women.
Saying otherwise means this male driven society which is mainly based around competition is necessarily a rapist society : it says nothing about the issues of our times, particularly on the situation of women. It is only a quick step to mechanical pseudo-marxist interpretations from late 60s.
In other words this idea that "power" is the main cause of everything is a only a fast lane to non thinking.
I'm 45 years old and I've never seen sexual harassment or heard about it from any women friends or family
10
Have you asked your women friends and family if they've experienced any? A lot of women don't volunteer the information.
2
Wonder why not?
1
This is absurd. I might say "I've never seen the sun rise or set, or ever heard anyone describe the sun rising or setting." This doesn't mean the sun doesn't rise or set but only that I've been hiding inside. Like the sun harassment happens every day, everywhere.
2
I have worked in the non-profit field of services for sexual violence survivors and as a sexuality educator for over forty years. This editorial is one of the best, most succinct and hard-hitting articles I have ever read on the topic of sexual violence. Thank you so much for giving it to us. The only addition I would make is that men have to begin working very hard to dismantle the toxic system patriarchy that has allowed all this for thousands of years. Of course that means they will have to be willing to give up the power of male privilege.
71
Thank you for continuing to speak. I know it's awful. I hope you know it's profoundly appreciated.
2
Yes it's me too.
I am one of the safest men I know. I have been hyper vigilant about my behavior toward women since childhood. It was a priority for my mother and father and it has always been a priority for me.
And, still - yes it's me too. I have laughed when that was not the best response. I have doubted accusers. I have given a pass to men I otherwise admired for their "milder indiscretions".
So, though I'm sad and humiliated to admit it - It's me too.
And I'm fully committed to being part of the change that I know is happening now. We are shifting consciousness between men and women. We are deepening our fundamental understanding of feminine and masculine so that we can heal the underlying wounds within us.
So, yes, its' me too. AND I'm all in, standing strong for healing and change.
129
Thank you!
1
Thank you. Of all the comments I've read, yours has distilled Ms. Gay's message most clearly. You get it, and that's really all we're asking for. Thank you.
2
Sometimes we blind ourselves to the experience and suffering of other people because we believe we do not possess or condone the harmful behaviors causing outrage. This is true regarding recognition of sexual assault and harassment, racial bigotry, religious intolerance, class warfare, political disagreements and so on. If I can say I am not like that offensive person, I open the door to allowing myself to believe maybe the problem is not so bad. I have to tell myself that even though I have not been targeted for abuse, that does not mean a problem doesn’t exist. It is like member of a majority not understanding the experience of a minority group and wishing they would get over it. We don’t like to think we may be seen as complicit with the offenders. We are uncomfortable with all the implications these issues bring up. It it is only when we get out of our comfort zone that things will change. We have to make the change. When we fail to speak up, we are giving support to the offenders. When we fail to listen, we add to the pain of the victims.
3
Self-guilt and self-humiliation only leads to a sick society where everyone is the culprit of something else.
In which everything in life has to be transparent.
The main components of the 1984 Orwellian society.
Before feeling guilty of what you didn't commit : try to THINK first.
2
For each victim of sexual assault the emotional and physical consequences are horrendous. We seem to focus on who is more likely to be a victim and who is more likely to be a perpetrator but do those numbers really matter. The issue isn't gender it's the act of violence. We need to combat the attitudes, socialization, and laws that lead to violence of any sort.
We can all do this by not standing idle and letting anyone speak disrespectfully of any other person. Stand up, state your objection, and don't let the person get away unchallenged. Some people lack a moral compass and need to be trained to behave appropriately.
2
Someday, maybe I'll see an article calling all WOMEN on the carpet for things an extreme few do to MEN.
6
We are 'called to the carpet' everyday by being victim blamed when we are assaulted.
4
Extreme few? You have no clue. This is a nearly universal experience for women and girls.
2
I found the comments after this column very predictable. Let's be honest here: the system is rigged against women. When they come forward with their experiences, they are denigrated because they didn't speak out before then and when they speak out they are accused of hurting men's feelings and that it is really their own fault.
We can't win and that is how it is intended.
9
The article was expressly written with the goal of eliciting predictable responses so as to justify its flimsy, self-justifying 7th-wave feminist thesis; too much academic feminism makes the baby go blind.
2
I'm sorry -- while I appreciate hearing Ms. Gay's perspective on the issue, it's offensive for her to indict all men. In fact, most men I know do everything we can to counter this kind of behavior. I believe most men have not done the things she lists at the end of the article. Many of us, as men, are also perplexed as to what more we can do to stop it. When we see it, we say something or do something to stop it. We try to model good behavior for others. We do not participate in this kind of behavior. Period. It's unfair, and unhelpful, then, to refuse to distinguish between those who do this kind of thing and those who do not. In the future, please be more careful and direct your comments at the minority of men who do.
9
Articles like this say more about the author than they do about the topic.
4
It's there. In my 57 years it always has been. It was worse before when we were basically told not to talk about it, don't make a big deal about it. Now of course I am older and not young and attractive, so the power grab (which is what I think it really is) is not sexual, just situational. And not all men abuse their societal rank. But enough do. Like the guy who must take his turn at the auto parts store before me, even if I walked in first, the guy who doesn't believe me when I try to discus my printer problem and looks at my husband for verification, the guy who looks at my daughter up and down in front of me, as if I am not there witnessing his assessment of her. If this is the next chapter of the womens movement, count me in, I want to be treated fairly, equally, safely, and I want that for my daughters and grandkids too.
12
“Sexual violence is about power. There is a sexual component, yes, but mostly it’s about someone exerting his or her will over another and deriving pleasure and satisfaction from that exertion. Whave created a society where violence is power. It is immaterial whether the assault is sexual, emotional, financial, or incarceration. Sexual assault will only be addresses when the motivations and rewards for all assaults are eliminated.
The MeToo movement making this a gender-exclusive problem only intensifies the underlying feelings of powerlessness and victimization that feeds this dynamic of violence as power. The question to be asked is why men, who are supposed to hold the reigns of power, need to harm others in a attempt to feel powerful.
While women daily are subjected to shaming and sexual assault, men are likewise systematically subjected to physical violence and murder. Males initiate the majority of violent acts. What is happening that causes so many young men to feel so powerless they normalize violence and antisocial behavior? When we can answer that question, then we will find the solutions for all assaults, sexual and otherwise.
7
The accusations against H.W. are of the most unsubtle kind of sexual harassment and possibly violence. But the subtler forms are there for every woman and each of us has experienced it and must deal with it. The vast majority of men do not act like H.W. and are understandably offended to be grouped in with him. But the vast majority of men have likely committed a subtle offense that is innocent to them but not to the woman affected. Having a crush in the workplace is inescapable on both sides at one time or another, yet it can feel and be inhibiting and oppressive if the woman is the object and the man the one who has the crush. It seems impossible, often, to explain this to men. We are, as human beings, inextricably seen both as people and as relatively more or less sexually appealing by men in almost any setting. The fact that so many women have actually been subject to the worst forms of harassment by the small minority of men makes us ultra sensitive to some of the more innocent, yet insidious sexual tensions in our workplaces and lives in the community. The threat is there and we can't discount it.
3
Although women may feel aghast at this idea, men are actually confused about how to express interest in women respectfully.
For example, if an attractive woman goes to a bar and gets approached by fifteen men over the course of the evening, does that constitute sexual harassment? Let's say each man is unaware of the others, and tries to to say hello respectfully? It certainly might have ruined the woman's night, so it seems reasonable that she will feel like she was harassed with unwanted advances. Men might also agree with her, so should they feel they sexual harassed her?
Gay is clearly correct in this article—men need to look in their past for places where they did something they should not have. But the article's phrasing does leave open the possibility of implying that if a man isn't able to see that he has done this kind of thing in the past, it is because he isn't willing to admit it. This angle risks amplifying men's fears that they will find themselves called a "Weinstein" merely by accident, and they resist accepting this idea (as the many defensive comments already show).
Women's shock that men could be confused about the vast gulf that exists between sexual harassment and respectful behavior will ultimately be an obstacle in the effort to root out sexual harassment. Men need to go through a serious mea culpa. But in the broader discourse, pathologizing men can't be substituted for educating them.
6
Contrast......
"In feminist discourse we talk about rape culture, but the people we most need to reach — the men who are the cause of the problem and the women who feel moved to excuse them — are often resistant to the idea that rape culture even exists."
With......
"As a kid growing up, a lot of things were sacred in our country.
Women were sacred. Looked upon with great honor. That's obviously not the case anything as we see from recent cases."
Gen. John Kelly 10/19/17
The illusions of the past manage to miss and cover over today's reality. Can we believe there was ever a past better day that was somehow lost, or should we correct our illusions of the past? How many more illusions are there?
1
I thought the women's march in January was going to keep building. Some women broke their silence about Trump, and he is still sitting pretty--a powerful symbol. Men who express outrage are taken no more seriously than women unless great numbers of them join together. Men raised by mothers, maybe with sisters and who have daughters. Why not march again and again? Everyone, for women outraged by a president that symbolically empowers men like him. Where is the massive expression of righteous anger? It would let everyone in the land see that no one should expect to get away with abusing our mothers and sisters and daughters.
1
The behavior alleged by many to have been committed by Weinstein is offensive behavior, but not violent as he did not force himself on them, not even on the ones who refused his entreaties. Nor was the alleged behavior harassment since it was not alleged to have been done again to the complainant if they rejected rather than consent to his requests. Indeed, according to many of the complainants, his requests were accompanied by offers of payment in some form, not threats. Those complainants who did not accept essentially rejected his offer to prostitute themselves. Those complainants who accepted either truly wanted the interaction or else they chose to prostitute themselves.
Many women think they have a right to a life without ever being offended, and that any man who offends them should be prosecuted and punished by the law. There are many merely offensive behaviors of all kinds that occur often. I am offended by women who want the government to punish men for merely offending them. But an action which is merely offensive should not be illegal. Only when accompanied by physical harm should it rise to the level of illegality.
2
Really? You're actually saying that what this Boor in a bathrobe did was not harassment? Read the law, my friend. You are in serious denial.
A word of caution when it comes to making broad statements about sexual harassment and gender-based reactions: It's not so simple. As a man, I experienced sexual harassment from a female coworker. She frequently came to my work space, dropped "special" cards on my desk, rubbed her breasts against me and grinned, bought me unwanted gifts, and frequently surprised me with hugs. She acted openly, in clear view of other coworkers in a predominantly female workplace. This happened almost daily for a year, despite my reporting it to my superiors and despite my own direct insistence that it stop. My female coworkers openly laughed about it, and among themselves made snide comments, some even suggesting I "take her up on it." I was afraid that if I pressed the issue too hard, I would be accused of harassing my harasser. Finally I could take no more of it and I quit my job and moved far away.
6
Ah, yes. And all this was "back when" women were considered "sacred." Really? Not so much.
Very, very well said.
3
What do you intuit men's typical conversations/behavior look like, that we need to "step up?"
As a man who works in both male- and female dominated workplaces (National Guard and academia), I'm party to male-only and female-only conversations all the time.
After high school, the conversations are pretty similar across both groups. The opposite sex is objectified sometimes (she's hot, he's handsome), but NOBODY is rewarded for sexist/graphic discussion. It would be seen as weird (and uncomfortable, and perhaps too revealing) to share sexual details and fantasies, perhaps moreso among men. Gross.
Short answer- grown men don't talk about sex or conquests any more than women do, in my experience. However, both sexes notice attractive people. I think you're still allowed to think somebody's attractive, and tell a friend about it, right (well, even that topic is mostly off-limits to married men, when we talk)?
4
This is my experience too. I hang out with just guys plenty, and I never hear the kind of talk that women seem to ascribe to men in general. Even in high college (where I was in a fraternity), we loved to hear the scoops on last night's drunken escapades, and we occasionally and discreetly pointed out a "hot girl," but talk of sexual misdeeds or even sexual details was non-existent. I am 36 now, married, and two daughters, and even that talk is a distant memory. Behavior like that from Harvey Weinstein, or "locker room talk" like that from the Trump Access Hollywood tape would be absolutely shunned.
This is not to say there is not sexual harassment and assault. It is just unfair to say all (or even most) men are part of the problem.
4
The #metoo campaign is great and has shed a light of light on a too-overlooked issue. But the call to men should not be to join in a hashtag campaign, or to engage in some self-shaming exercise. The call to men should be this:
Be MEN. Be respectful, be honorable, be chivalrous! And for society, let's not diminish men and maleness as a means to elevate women or eliminate boorish male behavior. Let's elevate the right kind of maleness. The kind that treats women and others with respect, has good manners, and calls out and stands up against the boors.
It is unfortunate that even in today's age of sexual equality that women remain subject to so much physical and sexual abuse, intimidation, and harassment. But let's not try to fix the problem by neutering good men, telling good men that they are the problem and that they need to cower, send hashtags, and confess sins. Let's have men who open doors for women, walk them to their cars at night, make sure they get into their homes safely, and who are willing to sock a guy like Harvey Weinstein in the mouth rather than look the other way.
3
We have a case in point right now about what Gay is addressing.
A woman loses her soldier husband in Niger and Trump makes a call to the widow who has his call on speakerphone. Everyone hears Trump’s appallingly inappropriate statement including a congresswoman who also knew the young man who died. He participated in her youth mentorship program in Florida. So what happened when they objected? Both women were characterized as lying about Trump’s statements. General Kelly stooped to actually trying to characterize the congresswoman as “listening in on a sacred conversation” in a horrible attempt to assign blame to someone other than his sociopathic boss. Huckabee Sanders labeled Trump’s ignorance as “completely respectful”. Not so if the widow feels disrespected. She felt president did not even know her son’s name.
This is what is smeared through our culture as acceptable male behavior. Not OK.
4
Every woman (who is not being physically overcome) is capable of calling the police, of filing a grievance, of speaking out against the Harvey Weinsteins of the world. Minimizing the importance of women taking action dimishes their role in society to a submissive one, and makes the problem worse.
“Dear Robbers: the Robbery Problem is You, Too” - yes, but until the rest of us protect ourselves and report robberies, the problem will never go away.
3
I never disrespect women or people of color. Always stand up for them. I am super-progressive and always have been. But I'm the bad guy and its now socially acceptable to discriminate against me.
I'm white and male, so I have double-original sin. Getting tired of it.
8
I'm a white woman, and I, for one, am not "getting tired" of combating racism whenever I see it. I understand that it's not about me (I know I'm not the bad "guy"); it's about a scourge in this culture that must be eradicated. Why do you and so many other men have trouble seeing the institutionalized assault on girls and women in the same way? Why is so difficult to put self aside and just say, "I empathize with your plight"? I simply don't understand this wallowing in the "I have double original sin" mentality, this sheltering behind a wall of silence and seething. Girls and women need your help! You have no idea what we endure!
5
There are certain things that exist all over this world. Bad things. Killing, torture, rape and sexual harassment perpetrated by men, to name some of the worst. Some societies are better than others at controlling them, but they exist and always will. Some men do these things, and always will, to the extent they can get away with it. We have to do a better job of not letting them get away with it. But Roxane, pointing the finger at the entire male gender is not the way to go about it.
2
Unbelievable. After reading all the defensive and predictable refutes from men in the comments after all had been carefully addressed in the column, I understand now that this is a problem that will never be solved. From the batterers and rapists to the men trying to coerce sex on a first date to the man making unwanted physical comments to women at work and on the street, this problem involves the majority of men and it is a system they all benefit by. Maybe instead of beating our heads against a brick wall in trying to get them to see and understand, we should accept the fact that they don't want to and go from there.
2
It is inarguable that just as all police officers are not guilty of shooting unarmed black men, all men are not guilty of being sexual predators. But this simplistic analysis completely misses the point: How does a member of what can rightfully be called a "victim class" --- young black men, all women --- identify and avoid the bad actors within the "perpetrator class"? Obviously they cannot. There are no identifying marks or labels or warning signs that come with these bad actors. If anything the very nature of this behavior typically includes an effort to mask it, to make it seem more innocent than what it intends.
But that still misses the point. Why should anyone HAVE to identify the potential danger of a rogue cop or a male co-worker in a bar? Beyond that is the astounding reality that we have the clarity to actually define and assign our fellow human beings to these "victim classes", but somehow lack the moral will to provide them a safe exit from them.
To me, that is the point Ms Gay is making: Regardless of personal culpability, as human beings --- not just as men or as police officers, but as human beings --- we have an obligation to provide not only that safe exit but a safe place in which all people can co-exist without fear. That all men must share in this responsibility should not be viewed as an indictment or an accusation... it should be embraced as an opportunity to help heal this terrible wound.
6
This is at the same time so foreign to my work experience, and yet so familiar too. I've been in professional offices all my life, always with woman. I have never seen - sexual harassment, much less assault. I have seen several cases of false accusations used to get money, I've seen women use their looks to get promotions, and I have seen the elite guys and women having fun together, and I've seen people dating coworkers. Weinstein is one person in 10 million. The reason he got away with it - no one accused him! They wanted money. I hope that the friendships ordinary people have at work are not poisoned or scrutinized because of this, All the women in my office met their husbands at work. Is this a terrible problem,? Surely there must have been some flirting in the workplace. I had a dear dear friend who used to call herself my " work wife" . If I wasn't married I think she would have been more than a friend. Somewhere out there, some low level clerk or middle manager will lose his job for asking out a secretary, and they will be both be victims, not of sexual harassment, but of some type of culture war brought onto us by the elites. I know how it is in my world. The scenarios are much more subtle and complicated. But would we ever look the other way or smirk while our female colleagues are raped or harassed? Never in a million years.
4
Beautifully said, thank you for your article.
3
Little boys and men are victims of sexual assault and rape too. I think it might be even more difficult for them to come forward and speak about it. I try to imagine how they might feel reading this article (from a woman).
5
I attended a State University at a time when the ratio of men to women on campus was two to one. I was in a fraternity with 85 members, so I got to know a fair number of college men pretty well. The fraternity was a cross section. It included lots of men who conducted themselves with decency and respect towards women and some who were out right jerks. With a ratio of two to one, women on campus had a decided advantage in selecting what men they wanted to associate with. Not infrequently in bull sessions with some of my closer friends the topic would come up - why is it that with options available so many women seem to prefer to be attracted to the jerks? So while the author is trashing men in general, maybe someone could explain this apparent phenomena.
7
I was in school back in those days. Finally, responding to the phenomenon you describe, I amused myself by writing the following doggerel to the tune of the once famous number "Diamonds Are a Girl's Best Friend" from the 1953 film "Gentlemen Prefer Blondes."
I thought it might work as part of a larger work entitled "Ladies Prefer Jerks."
In my frustration around age 20 I wrote this:
"Be nice and polite and it's inconsequential- Ladies are a man's best friend. Be honest and true and you've got no potential, so just be a jerk. What could it hurt? It just might work. We'd rather be honest and gentle, it's true, but that just won't work in the end. The nice guys are low paid and can't hardly get laid- Ladies are a man's best friend."
When I went to law school I was a little older than average, considered a little edgy for some reason, and in an environment where being evidently brainy was a plus. So things worked out in that I got married to a classmate and had kids.
Maybe people associate aggressiveness with protecting and providing. And people confuse talking tough, acting tough, and being tough.
1
As an additional aside, I love that Alamo sculpture and have a habit of carefully rollerblading into it at top speed and starting it atwirl. If a guy ever grabs a woman wrong in that vicinity whilst I'm doing that, he is going to remember the Alamo like nobody else does these days.
I am in complete agreement with Ms. Gay's thoughts regarding men's responsibility for the repulsiveness of sexual assault and the harassment of women; however, men are not the only perpetrators of these outrageous and often illegal acts. In the 1970's, there were two aggressive female secretaries at the large company for which I worked. They would, on a daily basis, make lurid and explicit comments about men, walk up behind then and grab their buttocks, and create what is now referred to as a "hostile environment." As a manager and recipient of these unwanted actions, I spoke with both of these individuals about their conduct, and they were incredulous that I found it offensive since they defended their actions as "just kidding around." When they continued their disturbing behavior, I spoke to the department manager who told me that I "should be flattered." My point is simple: individuals who engage in sexual harassment, assault and other offensive acts, whether men or women, need to be identified, reported, and stopped and the perpetrators appropriately punished.
5
There were two striking categories of defensive comments to this article. One category includes claims that the reader had never heard or seen to sorts of behavior in their lives (“in 58 years have never witnessed sexual harassment” “I have never seen any of these 3 defense used”). There are many things we do not witness or see that nonetheless exist. These statements validate the claims in the article – that there is widespread denial of the scope of the problem, particularly by men.
The second category is that all men are not predators and therefore should not be lumped together. A key point of this article is women are held responsible for the bad behavior of some men while it is countenanced by other men (and women). The fact that the responses in these categories were self-focused (i.e., I am a good man and most men I know are) rather than problem-focused (i.e., what we can do to prevent this?) again validates the article. The most poignant illustration of this was a comment by a man who witnessed a discussion among his fraternity brothers regarding a gang rape of an inebriated woman. He pointed out the illegality of this behavior and stopped the conversation. But he did not report the crime. I cannot honestly say I would have acted differently were I him.
This is not a women’s problem and we all need to hold each other accountable proactively – recognize the problem, talk about the problem, condemn and take action against such problems.
13
There are actually three categories of excuses. The third is that it is all women's fault because they want aggressive, moneyed men, and pick "me" next time, they poor guy that can't get a date.
You are right though, every last one of the excuses is all about them.
3
Women have the power to make these men extinct if they really want them gone. The problem is that the same traits that make men likely to engage in these kind of harassing behaviors are the same traits that make these men attractive to women in other ways.
Perhaps women should resist the temptation to be attracted to the status and money of men, and instead go for the impoverished and unattractive nice guys?
7
Please explain what traits you are talking about. You mention money and status, but nothing about their character or personality or attitude.
2
I'm probably going to get stoned for what I am about to say but I, for one, never felt degraded or insulted by catcalls. Wearing my short, short skirts and tight t-shirts certainly invited those catcalls, but I liked the attention. Walk around any mall today and notice the way young girls dress. Walk into any store and see what's available for young women. We are told that we should dress any way we want but expect men not to look or notice. Most women dress to attract. That's a fact and that's not going to change.
82
Be careful. Telling anything like the truth today can be extremely dangerous.
4
I was groped on a bus wearing a hoodie and jeans, carrying a load of books in my arms on a very tiring day. I was the subject of sexual comments in a board room wearing a modest business suit while presenting about chemical usage. What I was wearing on those days was by no means an invitation for the resulting male behavior, and saying that those behaviors cannot change is part of the problem, because it creates an excuse for those who want any justification possible that their right to power is greater than mine.
10
Thank you for your honesty.
And I don't say that to support catcalling or the like, but to support the idea that relationships between individuals are complex, including aspects such as the sexual, the sensual, beauty, fashion, art, if not simple attraction and preferences. We all deal with these things in one way or another, and none of them are bad or evil per se, just like not all men or women are bad, evil, etc., per se. And regardless of one's personal experiences, no one is privy to Ultimate Truths much less a Saint.
So we all need to take a step back, breathe a bit, and consider how we can discuss these issues without emotion, with reason and logic, and perhaps make some changes.
Because as it stands right now, it's just a bunch of hate and reaction to hate, from both sides, and that's pretty useless.
3
Let's go! and break the rape culture. Roxane Gay makes it clear that half this planet is already DONE with excuses and with NOT getting the job done. So let's cowboy up, men. Men with daughters. Men with sisters. Men with mothers. There's zero space for it. Hear it or see it, nip it in the bud. There's no room for it, anywhere anytime.
Someone not getting it, then find some new friends. When you are exiting that situation, pay attention, men, .. to the bullying to make you give up your decisions to follow your code, .. to the mocking about your sensibilities, and .. to the physical posturing to detain you in their world.
(Note, please, I do recognize that some men are under real threat for defying others, so that is a situation that needs professional help first.)
Back to that nonsense, men, that nonsense that comes back at you for calling something wrong and for doing your part to end this rape culture. Remember that nonsense; and multiply it by 100, then we might have a sliver of an idea what our mothers, sisters, and daughters are subjected to, by those who don't want to know how to act. So, let's ALWAYS make a point of explaining how THE WORLD is getting ON WITH the program.
1
I remember once going to Lilith fair with a friend and a couple girls. When we were moving through the crowd trying to get to the train, someone pushed me from behind and I tripped forward, and my hand reaching for balance made contact with one of the girl's butt. She turned and accused me of groping her.
I remember one day I was working at a bookstore. There were a bunch of new hires, and I went around to introduce myself. I said "Hi" to one of the new girls, and the first thing out of her mouth was "I have a boyfriend."
Another time I was living in Chicago. There was this art gallery that I used to stop by a couple times a week. I have a background in the visual arts. A girl got a temp job where I was working, and I said hello a couple of times. Then she had a show at the gallery I would stop in on my walks. Apparently she interpreted this as me stalking her. I was not. But she did get her boyfriend to tell me to stay away.
I am not saying I am entirely blameless as a male. A woman when I was living in DC broke my heart and I used to walk by her work every day for a month, until I realized I actually was legitimately stalking her and forced myself to stop. When I was 12 I tried to peek and see my cousins changing into their swimming suits at our cottage.
I think that there are very few men who aren't either guilty of or have been at least mistakenly accused of sexual assault at least once in their life.
5
The flip side of this is that women are also the harassers.
I am male. A couple years ago, a female coworker 20 years my senior walked into my office uninvited and shut the door. She came up behind me while I was seated at my computer, thrust her breasts into the back of my head, and started running her hands over me. She kept repeating how lonely she was. I got up, opened my office door, and walked out to the crowded communal kitchen until she moved on. I avoided this coworker for the remainder of her time at my employer, which made it significantly harder to do my job.
Neither side of this belongs entirely to one gender.
9
A commenter complained that "everything from a lustful look to actual violent rape is blurred together." Lustful looks and violent rape are on a continuum of sexism. It's like thinking about racism if you're white. White people have a large array of racist behaviors and attitudes that fall under the category of race privilege and racism. It's the same with male privilege and sexism. Some of it's how you think and some of it's how you act. But what a waste of time to complain about one's non-culpability. Yes, it's sometimes miserable looking at race or sex privilege. You may have to give something up or take some action that makes your life more difficult. I think there are some commenters who have not yet decided what they want around male privilege. Do they want us to call them nice guys because they say they are?
Also, in response to the comment that it's difficult for men to police other men: Hey don't we women know it: you can get killed for challenging men's sexism. A male friend once told me he tried to exit a bachelor party - which women in prostitution sarcastically call "gang rape parties" - because he didn't feel comfortable with the way the woman was being treated. He didn't give a speech, he didn't loudly complain, he just gave the excuse that he had to work early the next day. Yet he felt physically threatened by other men as he made his way out of the room. Men can be dangerous to others who challenge their right to sexually exploit women.
9
This is largely nonsense.
First, it's *not* me, too--and it's no other man I know. Contemporary feminism is largely about insinuating that all men are responsible for the actions of a few. That's just one reason so few people of both sexes now categorize themselves as feminists.
In addition to this anti-male sexism, feminism is packed with innumerable other PC absurdities. Just in this piece we are told that sexual harassment is "about power"--but, of course, it isn't. It is, unsurprisingly, about sex. Political correctness is mainly about subordinating facts to political orthodoxy, and this is just another instance of that. "Power" is the main obsession of the Foucaultian left...but *sex* is the obsession of actual sexual criminals. (Actual empirical evidence indicates that women are more likely to be raped at the ages at which they are most physically attractive.) As is so often the case, common sense and science are on one side, feminist orthodoxy is on the other.
Then, of course, there's the bit that tries to argue that even *not* being sexually harassed is sexual harassment...that's such a paradigm of PC absurdity that, well, you really couldn't make it up...unless, of course, you were in the grip of a ridiculous theory.
9
@O.OO-I actually commented on this earlier and completely agree with you. Modern feminist theory on sexual harrassment is based on written philosophical argument not the least rooted in any scientific evidence or even critical reasoning. Coercion (sexual harrassment) and rape is a ploy by some individuals rooted deep in our evolutionary history. Sexual harrassment has nothing to do at all a need for domination, "rape culture", or an intentional or unintentional conspiratorial plot by men to subjugate women. These are tangential arguments borne out of a thought without empirical evidence.
Why does this matter? Because by relying on these incorrect views not based in reality, you get editorials like Ms. Gay's. You get a school of thought which castigates all men, even if they have never sexually harassed, as perpetrators. You produce a culture of perpetual victimhood in some segments of the male and female population.
5
Seems like there's an awful lot of defensive reaction from the male side on this comments page. What's up with that, guys?
In the months since the Fox News/Roger Ailes & Bill O'Reilly ousters and now with the Harvey Weinstein exposure, I've made it a point to ask both male and female friends about their experiences with what Ms. Gay has very appropriately termed 'sexual harassment.' And what were the results of my very informal survey? EVERY SINGLE WOMAN I spoke with had a myriad of experiences of such behavior. Every single one. Whether it was touching or kissing or leering or inappropriate comments or -- in one case -- worse, each woman came forth with multiple examples of times when they had felt insecure or threatened in some way. And the guys? NOT ONE. Not a single man had experienced that kind of sexually predatory environment.
I might suggest that men don't really understand how this harassment feels to women because we haven't experienced it in our guts. Women do. Repeatedly. It's good that all this is being hauled out into the open and debated and harangued. Light and air and exposure can kill many pathogens;
maybe this infection can start to heal as well. But it won't if we don't continue to expose it or get defensive about it or pretend that 'it isn't there,' or suggest that women are responsible for the infection. Or that they encourage it. Or invite it. They don't.
12
I think the reaction is inspired by:
-being unjustly accused of a violent crime you didn't commit simply because of your gender (or skin color) is pretty scary (ask Emmit Till)
- ask any guy and most will regale you with equal horror stories about how women have treated them.
- being asked to participate in this insane gang tackle and admit your crimes (the ones you didn't commit) before this ad hoc twitter tribunal is all very "Darkness at Noon".
Can't imagine why more guys aren't jumping on board!
3
"What's up with that, guys?"
What's up is the fact that, despite Ms. Gay's assertion, it is not all men who are the problem. I have no idea what the percentages are, and neither does she, but I know many men, myself included, who have not engaged in any of the behaviors mentioned herein. i also know many men who have. So let's focus on exposing those, like Mr Weinstein and Mr. Clinton, who do engage in them while acknowledging that there are many who do not.
If I were to assert that since many black males engage in unlawful behaviors, that all black males are somehow responsible or guilty I would be justly called an ignorant racist. What, then, should we call someone who contends that since some males engage in unlawful sexual behaviors all men are somehow responsible or guilty?
2
I was with Ms. Gay until the end of her piece when she started talking about what "men" should do. I'm a man. I don't engage in the sort of objectionable conduct she identifies. I've never engaged in it and wouldn't dream of engaging in it. I keep my mouth shut and my hands to myself. So let's stop acting as if all men are the problem. That's just flat out unfair.
40
How about you talk to your fellow men and encourage them, strongly, to treat women with respect? Be a good example? Get involved in Big Brothers and show a youngster how he should treat girls and women? Don't just keep your mouth shut on this one. DO SOMETHING! DO SOMETHING POSITIVE! For women, for men, for the people who are growing into adulthood and will be women and men. We need you to do this!
4
Do you call out objectionable conduct when it occurs around you? If your friends are making comments about women do you speak up? Because if you keep your mouth shut then, you are part of the problem.
5
She asked you to hold other men accountable. She asked you to notice and object to a culture of toxic masculinity. Can you not see how you have a role? Even if you "keep your mouth shut and hands to yourself"? Can you see how keeping your mouth shut enables a culture of gender bias, sexual harassment and rape?
3
« Sexual violence is about power. »
I know Susan Brownmiller introduced this widely-held idea that rape and sexual violence is about power and not primarily about sex. If that was true, many men would just beat women up and not rape them.
If you ask a rapist why he did it, he will tell you it’s about sex. Some men may also hate women because women have what they want most and they cannot just take it, but sexual desire is at the root of those feelings.
The fact that rape is about sex and not primarily about power doesn’t change anything. Sexual desire does not let men off the hook, just like anger does not justify murder. Human nature does not offer a free pass to bad behavior that society deems criminal and which society prohibits by statute.
6
No. If it was about just wanting sex they could get it from a sex worker or any one of the countless women who would give sex to anyone just to have the attention. It is about power, the part in your comment about *and they cannot just take it" evidences this. In addition, rape is made all the more attractive to men because it is the one thing that most women fear. If women didn't care about being raped, it would lose it's attractiveness to the rapist.
2
Sorry. From the perspective of 78 years of life I have to say that I think women have been anesthetized to the effects of modern fashion. The clothes I wore as a young woman were different: they covered me, they didn't emphasize my boobs, skirts came below my knee, Modern fashion is first of all sexy. Period.
Men have also been perverted by modern culture: the easily available women on TV and in movies have allowed men to think that women want casual sex.
See "Grey's Anatomy" A lot of our media serve up at least soft porn. Women can dress differently. Men need to realize that media portraits of women are not realistic.
Let's recognize that our economic culture uses sexuality to sell everything.
I'm not a prude and I have a happy 58 year old marriage. My husband would never never never think of assaulting a woman verbally or physically. But then, he never watches modern media. I still dress conservatively. I cannot say
"Me Too".
1
. . . and that's why rape, groping and harassment didn't exist back in the "good old days," eh?
2
Clothing has ZERO pertinence to this topic. This is an excuse to not hold predators accountable. Assault and harassment have existed since forever, even when women were covered head to toe. It is a power trip. The fact that you are in denial worries me about your female relatives, friends and neighbors. Denial makes you part of the problem.
1
I wonder how much ambition is driven by the humiliated boy in most men. Probably that's what motivates a desire to command per se, as apart from seeing the need in a crisis or something.
I know about those humiliated boys; those whose parents only asked them; what did they do to deserve it or, worse, assumed they DID deserve it. Not to mention those whose mothers gave the impression of believing anyone else's daughter before their sons--and whose daughters grew up to delight in humiliating men; sometimes to the point of neutering, with lies which undercut the honest women to whom these things happen.
I think we should teach our sons to master their hormones early and to make NO move until and unless their partner makes it unmistakably clear that's what she wants; that there be no question about consent!
I fear for all of us with this kind of editorial passing as sound judgment. All men are not predators just as all women are not angels.
There is too much outrage and not enough thinking.
Roxanne Gay is not doing women any favors with her faulty proposition.
11
Can we please, finally, once and for all, cease perpetuating the myth that only men rape and only women get raped? Not only does this myth completely ignore the reality of rape in the LGBTQ community, but it also makes it that much harder for men to A) realize they've been raped when it occurs and B) be taken seriously if and when they report it.
2
1) Anonymous accusations are wrong. We have due process. Using the internet to accuse people is simply wrong.
2) Many in the media & commentariat, are using the Weinstein affair to suggest all men are guilty of abusing, harassing, assaulting or raping women. That does not jibe with my experience. Of all the men and women I've known, only twice has someone spoken about either being harassed or knowing someone who was. In both instances the event was a verbal proposition that was unwanted but easily parried. The discomfort was because the male in question had power over the female at work. But no incidents of physical assault.
3) A small number of men can harass a large number of women.
4) I was in a fraternity. No one raped anyone during my 4 years. In fact, cases of bad behavior towards a female by a member were confronted by other members.
5) The way male and female DNA -- not socialization -- works is that males generally have to approach the female. Sometimes the approach is awkward, over done or unwanted. That doesn't make it harassment.
6) Women are attracted to powerful men. As the evolutionary psychologists say -- dominance in males leads to access to women.
7) The high school quarter back, or a Brad Pitt look alike, can make advances that are welcomed by many women. The tuba player (sorry) can't. Same behavior, wanted by women if the male is attractive, may be found revolting if the male isn't.
8
I suspect that men also prefer good-looking partners, overall. But this isn't about that.
1
I'm sick of this stupid sexist badgering. Unsubscribing from my NYTimes subscription right now, and deleting the app forever. Good riddance.
12
Womyn good, men bad. So Orwellian. So superficial that most Ummuricans should love it.
7
#metoo
another liberal and leftist NYT subscriber who puts up with a near daily agenda of articles and columns proclaiming the wickedness of men and the righteousness of women. but who finds this piece over-the-top in vapidness and hate.
"They can come forward and say “me too” while sharing how they have hurt women in ways great and small."
Scene from a Maoist re-education center: (guard hands inmate notebook) "Begin writing down your crimes!"
This is gutter journalism.
11
Why do so many commenters refer to this piece as an "article"? It appears on the OPINION page of the paper. OPINION. Articles are found on all of the pages that lack the OPINION heading. A nation of undereducated imbeciles, and here we have the cream if the crop. To quote the Imbecile in Chief: Sad.
7
Well, they're -all- articles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_(publishing)
2
Get a grip, Roxanne. You must know some men who aren’t rapists.
8
How about celebrating men in the public sphere who treat women with respect? There was a lot of liberal handwringing and snark when VP Pence said he would not have dinner or drinks alone with a woman other than his wife. Seems like that behavior should be spotlighted rather than ridiculed.
25
If such rules are necessary for Mr. Pence to control himself and avoid assaulting women, then I suppose it is good that he live with them. I do not think this is a practicable solution for our society generally.
4
We should not have to "celebrate" people for being decent human beings. That should be the norm, not the exception. I am shocked at how tone deaf some of these responses have been. I suggest that men who do not understand this problem dress as women and go out in public. See what happens.
6
If all that's keeping a man from sexual harassment is the presence of witnesses, then he should not be free to roam the streets, much less be vice president.
7
As with racism, these discussions are so often tainted by the first principle that under no circumstances must white people or males be made to feel bad. What is normal and acceptable for women and people of color - being treated abusively, dismissively, cruelly, mockingly - is considered a horrifying event, an outrage even, when it's a white male on the other end of that treatment.
Women can expect to be treated as human beings only so long as no white man is ever made to feel bad about anything. No white man should ever feel he's being unfairly judged, ever - but millions of women being abused regularly is just the normal course of business, the way it's always been and always will be.
This is only one of the many ways white men and men n general exert their privilege - the abuse of women is the norm, but even a smidgen of unfair criticism of men is an outrage.
9
Hitting the nail on the proverbial head!!
Well no. Hired, promoted, trained with,..............sorry no harassment or abuse. Like any ideology Third Wave wants to seize the moment. Repent for all are sinners. Instead of creating allies all this approach will do is engender resistance and retrenchment. Right and Left.
2
Dear Woman: Its not me. Stop trying to put blame on me for something I've never done and, to my knowledge, none of my friends have.
7
Every time I hear someone way that a woman should watch what she wears or else she is tempting men to assault her, I reply that therefore, they should accept the blame if someone robs them and beats them mercilessly because the attacker noticed that the guy had nice shoes and therefore tempted the attacker.
6
It is not a case of accepting the blame but of taking reasonable precautions. If you were robbed in a dark alley you took as a shortcut, I would feel justified in suggesting that taking that route was not the wisest thing to do and staying on well lit streets might lead to you being less likely to be robbed. Is that blaming the victim or just common sense?
Yes, you should, in a perfect world, be able to wear whatever you want without opening yourself up to harassment or assault. Yes, in a perfect world you should be able to walk on any public thoroughfare without being robbed. Until we arrive at that perfect world, however, certain behavior is riskier than others.
1
Its my observation that most men don't ask women they know (sisters, wives, girlfriends, etc.) whether we've ever been sexually harassed or assaulted. This absence of inquiry, learning, and demonstrated personal sympathy drives the hurt and embarrassment underground. Its also my observation that some men protect one another by not confronting harassment or assault when they witness it, are aware of it, or encounter attitudes that foster it. The perpetrators are usually not living in a vacuum; they're surrounding by other guys ignoring or tacitly approving them.
8
Lots of retorts accusing Ms. Gay of accusing "all men" of predatory behavior.
Please do a Ctrl F and type "all men". Other than those found in comments section here is the sentence where it occurs in the piece:
"And then they start to panic because not all men are predators and they don’t want to be lumped in with the bad men and they make women’s pain all about themselves."
not all men are predators she said.
She goes on to say: "They [those who are "afforded the luxury of oblivion"] choose not to face that enough men are predators that women engage in all sorts of protective behaviors and strategies so that they might stop adding to their testimony."
Enough men. Some men. Not all men. Ms. Gay tried to forestall the "all men" rebuttal. Predictably it wasn't enough.
13
Good point about assault being about power and not only conventional beauty. Recall when Trump tried to refute allegations against him by saying that anyone who looked at the woman would know she was not attractive enough for Trump to pursue—such a horrible attack after someone whose allegations I also found quite convincing.
1
This is good. But keep in mind that we have gotten to this place in the evolution of the species with genocide, slavery, torture, war and killing. That might explain the less than sanguine response by a very significant part of the population.
2
Dear Professor, I'm thinking I would flunk your class; "All men are Evil".
Just this AM reading a story in local paper, woman with two children meets man 46 on dating site. They develop a relationship, he moves in. She reports he assaulted her with a kid's toy, stabbed her in the back with a knife, and ties her up with an electric cord. She is treated at an emergency room where he brought her. Two weeks later she reports to local police.
Right away, anyone reading that assumes he is guilty. We shake our head in disgust and look away. This week he was acquitted of all charges. His lawyer claims the man has one arm that is disabled, and the woman reported the incident after he wanted to break it off.
It took the jury 15 minutes to deliberate.
1
We live in a nation where campuses need to add lighting along walkways so women feel safe, where women carry mace and whistles to feel safe, where the gun lobby targets isolated women as needing to keep safe, and we have a president who successfully deflected his long record of sexual predation as somehow not as bad as the treatment of women by his opponent, a woman with a proven record of public service that has focused on improving the lives of women and children.
So I guess no one should be surprised that the main response among men -- even in this "liberal" news source -- is a mixture of denial and victimization.
Pretty soon we should hear how this reverse sexism is so unfair after men allowed you ladies to vote, hold jobs and attend their schools.
When will this war on men stop?! They clearly can't take it.
3
The comments section is horrifying. I think I’d like to take the “all lives matter” argument, change a couple of words around, and just re-post here… It’s incredible how people with privilege can so easily keep the blinders on. Is it really so hard to say-I hear you. I will assess my own actions, thoughts, and feelings to see where I am at with this. I will try to do a better job speaking up when I see and hear injustice. Period. Full stop. No excuses, no defensiveness, no you are lumping us all into the same category… it is this very reaction that makes me even more convinced about how pervasive and accepted the problem is.
149
The article is more horrifying. Take the word "men" out of the title and insert the word Blacks or Muslims and you get the same collective guilt idiocy.
6
Right?!
It seems like a projection.
1
Sorry, but I still don't buy that all of these women in Hollywood, at awards shows and elsewhere, never talked about this to each other. Then each decided to remain silent. Reminds me "would you light a candle or curse the darkness." Yes, there is a lot to curse, but except for the first, they should look in the mirror and ask "why didn't I speak out first?" What were they afraid of? Being murdered? Losing a job? Losing a multi million dollar net worth? What would they have lost if they spoke out? Tens of thousands of women publicly demonstrated against Trump. They weren't afraid.
4
Sorry, but they were afraid of losing their careers, their ability to work again in the industry. It's not like everyone has some magical safety net of support to fall into if they can't get a job. And to be clear, they were afraid of losing their careers because HW openly threatened them with just that, and made good on those promises time and again. Ambra Battilana says she's going to out HW for groping her and putting his hand up her skirt, and he spreads rumors to the tabloids that she is a liar and has a questionable reputation. Women truly are damned if they do, damned if they don't.
2
Mr. Weinstein’s accusers accepted a cash payment in exchange for their silence and the promise of celebrity. They could have done the truly brave and honorable thing by going public with their accusations and thus forfeiting the cash and fame. They could have found other careers in other industries—show business is neither fair nor a meritocracy and it is hardly known for the high moral standards of its habitués. These women were adults and were in every way empowered to either go public or to sell their silence. They were not victims of pedophile or human trafficking rings, and were not coerced or threatened with physical violence or imprisonmemt if they did not comply. They chose self-interest over the period of bringing down a loutish sleazebag and possible rapist. Why are we celebrating them as heroes, rather than calling them out as complicit?
2
So all men, no matter how powerless, are complicit, while very powerful women like Gwyneth Paltrow and Angelina Jolie did not need to step forward when it would have prevented less powerful women from being victimized?
I know the market rewards writers who blame all men for everything, but Ms. Gay should put truth ahead of her pocketbook.
10
If you're looking to assess blame for these atrocities, don't overlook the many prominent "feminists" who knew this was happening--in many cases, allegedly even to themselves--and kept silent to further their own ambitions.
Sorry, but that comes off more like trading sexual favors for professional advancement.
4
As these comments show, it’s columns like this that hinder any kind of substantive and productive dialogue on this issue, and all Ms. Gay has done here is further widen that divide. I have to wonder if that wasn’t her agenda in writing the piece in the first place.
Regardless, it’s not a good jump-start to a much-needed conversation on why and how sex is used as a weapon in this society, and what all of us — women AND men — can do about it. When your premise is basically a blanket condemnation of an entire group of people, that’s not exactly a good way to get anyone to listen to — much less consider — your argument.
4
@MDB, it's important to Roxane Gay to show how hop and doctrinaire she can be at the same time, and how little nuance there is in her Manichean worldview. The big advertisers of the NYT use sex as a sales tool. How many of them will cease and desist their ad campaigns in response to the Weinberg hoo-hah? Ms. Gay displays a sophomoric and extremely unbalanced grasp of events, including this one. As if she went straight from writing into a high school newsletter to the New York Times.
3
Perhaps we should stop using the term "men" or "man" when making reference to the vast number of predators in existence. The term "lady," though old fashion, is judgmental, as it provides males the power to judge if a woman is or is not a lady. In the case of sexual harassment it's time to stop giving guys who engage in behavior, the compliment of being called a man, a title undeserved. Any recommendations?
1
Thank you. You are absolutely right. As long as we men are silent about sexual abuse by other men, the abuse will continue. Silence is tacit approval.
8
If a substantial number of women would speak out loudly when men got out of line their behavior would change rapidly. If most women don't have the guts to stick up for themselves, who is this person to demand that I take the burden on myself? I call it chuzpah.
.
The comments here are breathtakingly tone def. Asking other men *and women* to acknowledge moments of sexual harassment, sexual objectification and misogyny. Wow, that is not hard. You've never laughed along with a sexist joke because it seemed like the easiest thing to do? Allowed someone to put a woman down based on her looks alone? Ignored an incident of dubious behavior towards a woman because it didn't seem important? Instead, nearly every last man commenting has dug their heels in and insisted it is women who really are the problem, the true sexists, the misandrists. Be serious. I sure hope it's not all men who are like the ones writing here.
Thank you, Roxanne Gay, for writing this. All of us ought to consider ways we have silently enabled the sexual harassment and humiliation of women, and what we can do to change that.
12
From an alarming number of these comments - including the foolish one that suggests more women arm themselves (to shoot catcallers? What happens next?) - I conclude there is still much, much work to be done. Articles like this are an excellent first step in such work. No antiseptic like sunlight.
And for those who claim they have never seen or heard the things the author recounts - your denials reveal as much about yourselves as it does about your abilities to perceive the world around you and your interactions with the women in your lives.
8
I would suggest we dial down the hysteria and follow the principles of the US Constitution. HW has not been proven guilty of anything. It's mass hysteria and crowd mentality that is conducting a lynching. This is the PC crowd in action, this is why Trump was elected.
5
You are correct Harvey Weinstein has not been convicted in court. At the moment he has not even been charged, though charges may be coming.
But I find it terribly saddening that you link this to "why Trump was elected." Really? Really?
All of America who bothered to look and listen saw Trump on tape, bragging about groping women. More than a dozen women came forward to say he did, too. In at least one of those cases there were other witnesses to the groping.
Trump then claimed it was all just "locker room talk" and all the women were lying, and he would sue all of them ... where are those suits?
Summer Zervos is suing Trump for libel, and Trump is desperately trying to wiggle out of discovery in the case ....
and you are telling me that America elected Trump because of this? Really?
Wow, I sure hope not, but maybe you are right?
Misunderstanding, probably my fault Im sometimes in a hurry and don't explain very well my position. I don't condone what Trump did or what HW probably did. I'm saying one of the reasons Trump got elected is people are tired of seeing the PC Police try, convict and punish people. This isn't the first time. All you have to do is have a rumor that someone is a sexist, racist or whatever and the PC police go hysterical. People actually lose money, jobs, businesses, because of the PC police. It isn't right.
1
If you want to know what men really think about other men and their attitudes towards women, ask them about their daughters and how men who abuse them or do not take no or even if they trust most men to be with their daughter or to marry her.
Even the nastiest of men usually is very suspicious of most men who court his daughter. If he heard bad things about them he is inclined to interfere before it gets serious. Some of the most hardened of men will arrange mayhem or death for an abuser.
The more they have belonged to an animal fraternity the more many of them will not let their daughters date men from that fraternity.
I know few men not out of control who think much of very many men courting their daughters.
3
As a man, and member, however minor, of the greatest power club ever known, I have a duty to look inside myself and ask some hard questions. If I am able to take that step, perhaps I will take the next, which is to answer them honestly. After that may come personally meaningful actions in my relationships with all women.
I do not enjoy being lumped in with the male monsters of the world, I squirm at having my occasional sexist mistakes tossed into the same bucket as the crimes of a man-creep. I want to howl protests at the charge that I contribute to the perpetuation of rape culture. But you know what they say about denial.
If it makes me feel a bit better by splitting a hair and saying I participate in, rather than contribute to, rape culture, well, okay (but face it, it's the same thing).
It's a battle to not go on defense when meeting accusations such as those in this column; but it's an early, necessary battle, and one I can win.
7
Just as white people cannot truly understand the experience of non whites because whites live in a society created by them and for them, the same situation exists with men. Men live in a society designed by them and for them and cannot truly understand a woman's experience. Whites and men who consider themselves without sin are shocked that they are a part of the problem. The transgression against non whites or women must be so egregious to be recognized as unacceptable. The egregious acts are done in an environment where the small slights are not even recognized and serve as the seeds for the transgressions to grow. As a college freshman meeting with my English teaching assistant alone, was the recipient of comments about my appearance. Here was a power situation with what to men would be innocuous, but it is that type of behavior that serves as the basis for more threatening acts. To call the issue at hand "rape culture" misses the point of the soil in which the seeds grow. It is the seeds that have to be recognized.
6
There is no doubt that there men who abuse women because they can or want to. These men take advantage because the women are not considered a physical threat and are viewed primarily as sex objects. These men feel it is their right to pursue women under the circumstances. These men dehumanize their targets without even thinking about it. Why would they consider their actions as out of line? How are we going to teach these miscreants to respect women, the foundation for eliminating female abuse?
1
I spent 24 years working for a not-for-profit women led organization in Chicago that teaches full contact classes in self defense and rape prevention.
I know for a fact that women can, in fact, stave off attacks. But it isn't about how they dress or about acting subservient or (god help us all) being grateful for unconventional looks.
During my career I traveled all over the US and overseas teaching. I never met a woman that couldn't defend herself. I met lots of women that walked in believing they couldn't.
Not remotely the same thing.
It's about occupying space and owning power. It's absolutely a learned and learnable skill.
My goal was to work my way out of a job. Alas, I didn't. But there are still good people out there doing that work.
Men won't stop committing violence against women until it becomes common knowledge that it can be a dangerous thing to attempt. And it can be a very dangerous thing to attempt with a weekend's worth of training.
http://www.impactchicago.org/
2
I fall into the cohort of men who want "to step up." I am also overwhelmed with "What can I possibly do?" The answer must begin with education. Guys remember "the talk" that you had with your parents where you discussed rape culture and sexual harassment? Me either... Oh, but remember the sexual education classes that discussed rape culture, sexual harassment and various tools and techniques for men to "step up"? Me either... That's what is missing from this conversation... a call to educate.
3
Look, I was sexually harassed, hounded and throated by a client for several months. This person even had the nerve to show up at my house on a Sunday morning when my spouse and children were home to invite me to go to lunch. I was basically afraid to go to any conference or business meeting out of town when this person was present. I finally had to resign from the account to get away. I rally don't think she wasn't a bad person. Just possibly a bit lonely and needy, but it made me understand a bit more clearly about sexual harassment. It was ugly and uncomfortable. My replacement on the account was more than happy to submit to her advances. I guess I never was anything special to her. But sickly, my replacement got a lot of pats on the back from other men and women at the company for "taking one for the troops". Yes, everyone knew it was happening. My replacement went on to run the company and continued success..until the day he died.
2
Oh, please. I don't know how anyone could read, let alone write, the last paragraph of this piece without gagging on the mayonnaise-thick self-righteousness.
I'm a man, and no, I have never done any of those things, so no, I'm not going to go on social media and "come forward." I have, on the other hand, at various times been lewdly remarked upon and persistently pursued and cornered and touched and even used for sexual gratification by women without my consent -- sometimes while actually saying "no, no, no." Should I start a hashtag campaign? Should I blame you and tell you to confess your sins on Pinterface Instatweet?
I mean, maybe those women should have been more respectful to me, but I just never saw it as a big deal. If they'd ever held a gun to my head, it would've been a big deal. As it was, I could have just gotten out of there if I really didn't want it to happen.
But I suppose seeing moral daylight between dirty jokes and questionable consent and rape at gunpoint makes me Part Of The Problem.
9
Roxane... Bless you, bless your words and, as a man, I'm proud of all woman and the love, grace, energy & Power they bring to us on earth. Big love!
1
> Skeptics are willing to perform all kinds of mental acrobatics to avoid facing the very stark realities of living in this world as a woman.
It all comes down to "all men" are guilty. Even if we don't know it, have not done anything, have not seen anything, etc. we are guilty.
The one consolation I take from all this is that going about my day-to-day existence, most people are polite to one another, most people going to work are there just to work, most people in a crowded subway car simply sit or stand there, making accommodations with one another to let someone through, etc.
So really, the dark misogynist world Ms. Gay paints is undoubtedly there. But I suspect it is the exception rather than the rule, and any time it comes to public attention, there is a pretty large pubic outcry with the perpetrator being fired, charged, etc.,etc.
I think it would be a good thing for women to speak up when these things happen, though on the flip side, I'd hope anyone accused of these things would be given a fair trial as the consequences of being labeled a sexual predator stay with you for the rest of your life, regardless of how long your prison sentence might be.
It's too bad that Ms. Gay and fellow feminists simply do not understand how offensive the idea of "collective guilt" is.
6
How can this be an exception to the rule when so many women have experienced sexual harassment or sexual assault? How can this be exceptional and widely pervasive simultaneously? This isn't just happening to "feminists." This is happening to virtually all women in this country.
"Collective guilt" is so offensive, I guess everyone should turn a blind eye to what's going on so men don't have to confront what's going on?
6
Thank you for being here and speaking out. I appreciate every one of your columns and this one especially.
2
Remember your mother, sister and daughters, and speak for them and grieve for them as you become a part of the new mutual respect paradigm.
I am a man. I recall an article that says men think about sex every 17 seconds or something like that, which is probably true. Men don't just have power because of superior titles in the work place. Even peers have the power to force women have to go through the discomfort and hassle of reporting inappropriate conduct. So, women to put up with a lot of bad behavior from men, even those of lower station, just to avoid the hassle. It's not right. It is like women having to be cautious even when walking alone through a wooded park on a beautiful day- that is a danger men create for women due to men's predatory natures, not something that women do to themselves. Or being blamed for clothing choices because men can't control themselves. The problem is that most men at one time or another have been inappropriate toward women. That makes most men complicit and unlikely to speak up.
6
Every civilization in human history has struggled to contain male sexual aggression. It is unfortunate that early in human development, male aggression led to greater reproductive success, and this pernicious trait entered our species.
Modern men must learn to control this impulse, and channel the energy toward more positive ends. I am grateful that in a 30 year career on Wall Street, I have not personally witnessed harassment in a professional context. (I have, however, observed young women leverage their sexual power to get ahead, which I do not begrudge them, but that's another topic.)
Ms. Gay is wrong to imply that women should not take common sense precautions like locking their doors at night in a world where some men cannot control their impulses. She is right to demand that men do better. But perfection will never be achieved. Male aggression is unfortunately part of the human condition, and we will never get to the point where women can take zero precautions against it.
5
As a man who as a child was sexually assaulted by a woman, all this rings hollow. There are bad men and women, and good men and women, and any attempt to generalize one gender's collective behavior as representative of each of its members is myopic and sexist.
74
Pretty sure your "assault by a woman" did NOT come with the possibility of physical penetration by a penis, and the possibility of pregnancy or STD. Men have used their penises as weapons since we came out of caves. Women are not equipped with any equivalent "weapon", and don't try that "feminine wiles" trope. That just points back to male wimpishness in the face of temptations that you should have learned to control back when you were three, and throwing tantrums when seeing a cookie jar on an upper shelf.
2
I am also a man, and I have never been aggressive with anyone. The result? Throughout elementary school, middle school, high school, and college, women calling me a wimp, a loser, yes grabbing my ads and genitals and as a group laughing about it. I ignored them all publically but was crushed privately and it affects me to this day. Women, especially when younger and in possession of sexual power, are more than willing to engage in sexually predatory their social status allows them to do so. Given my experience, I am livid with resentment about this article, that I am somehow to blame and should come forward to confess something, or that I cannot empathize with victims of sexual harassment because I am a man.
7
I applaud this piece and am 1000% for helping to stop the appalling behavior women endure, but there's something about this piece which -- even as a liberal, progressive, NYC-born woman -- I find off-putting. I'm troubled by my response because this is smart, clear, powerful writing, but if the point is to create positive change this approach doesn't feel like the way. By way of contrast, take a listen to the interview with Jackson Katz on WNYC's the Takeaway from this week. Katz is the co-founder of Mentors in Violence Prevention training program and makes a similar call for change to begin with men. But his approach is so much more, in my opinion, constructive and effective than what I've read here. More likely, I think, to lead to actual change. He's no less tough on men, no less strong in his call for men to step up, but the way he speaks is motivating rather than alienating. As a woman, I felt empowered hearing him speak rather than like one of countless victims. It connects and inspires in a way this does not.
http://www.wnyc.org/story/seeing-sexual-harassment-and-violence-mens-issue
3
Quite a few indignant men have written comments to say, "Don't include me. I never harassed or abused anyone." To read through these comments you would think men have never heard of sexual harassment. It's all news to them. And, they are innocent of all charges. But, I bet these are some of the same men who laugh at the sexist joke a buddy tells, or leer at women in a bar along with his bros, or hear a coworker made a sexist remark in the office and say nothing. All these words and actions that demean women are part of the problem and create the "boys will be boys" mentality. When men start speaking out and telling their friends to curb the language and jokes, when they start cautioning coworkers about their office language and behavior, when they go so far as to report an incidence of sexual harassment that they witness in the workplace, that's when they can truly say, "don't include me."
6
Agreed, all men are guilty of sometimes laughing at rude jokes and occasionally staring at a beautiful woman in a bar. Most women have been guilty of pretty similar behavior at some point as well. And I dont think any of us are about to apologize for it.
4
Ah yes. The feminist idea that men not look at their superiors and do not speak unless spoken to.
Maybe we should have a STASI where crimes such as making jokes and staring at beautiful women can be reported and prosecuted.
2
Despite the provocative title to this op ed, I think the message is just simply we all need to be involved, and not just leave it to feminist activists.
2
This is something that existed for most of a century without public revolt or commentary. In the past the media portrayed it as the "casting couch" and portrayed the victims as adults who were desperate for fame and fortune and underwent the abuse as the cost of admission to achieve these goals. It is disingenuous to blame men alone for not protesting this activity earlier. There are women who achieved their fame despite their refusal to participate in this "tradition". Others accepted this as a rite of passage and kept their mouths shut about it. Every man is not a misogynist despite the authors perceptions.
2
wow--Droves of male readers instantly jumping to defense without having apparently read the essay. In their deaf outrage they prove Ms. Gay's point.
Relentless harassment of women will only be stopped when decent men--who are most men--participate in trying to stop it. But that won't happen if their first response is to fight against the acknowledgment that this is a social problem and not simply one of individuals.
6
This is the first time in a while that harassment has been thrown into the public discussion of sexual assault, and it led to an eye-opening discussion with my wife, who has never been sexually assaulted but has been harassed on multiple occasions. And I was surprised by how unsurprised I was by that.
It doesn't take a majority of men behaving badly to harass 99% of women. And I think that is part of the problem. Some men may harass just about every woman they encounter. That adds up to a pretty big body count over a lifetime.
I don't think the answer is to shame all men to confessing their parts in a national epidemic. But all men should be not only respectful toward women, but protectful of them against men who are not. Even in today's day and age of sexual equality, there is an essential place for maleness. Not of the kind that reveals itself in braggarts and chauvanists. But the maleness that shows itself in chivalry. Being polite, respectful, and standing up for women (and others) who continue to be preyed upon by men who lack honor and respect.
4
Of course, all of us, men and women, have a right to self exercise and protection, at the work-place or anywhere. We have the right to refuse to participate.
But we all create and are victimized or entertained by this environment which is hyper-loaded with sexual double-entendre, flirtation, reward, enticement, punishment...
We buy or sell the product every day, we take it home, watch it, dream it, live it, abuse it or are abused by it...
The truly sad and dysfunctional are those who lose themselves in the jungle of opportunity, to offer themselves up for personal gain, or leverage their personal power to gain at someone else's expense the lonely pleasure of a lost moment or some reward or consideration for defacing themselves.
The beast is us.
Dear Ms. Gay,
Many thanks for speaking out and why not ask Men who Care to be advocates for the Rights of Women? A proclamation to be made and 2019 officially declared by The United Nations as The International Year of the Woman.
The above could be based on The International Year of the Child in 1979 under the banner of UNICEF for example, a non-governmental agency, bringing all Nations together in a concerted effort to improve the plight of women world-wide and enhance their status.
A Special Representative to be nominated by the Head of the United Nations with recommendations by all, to lead this global endeavor and bring Humanity closer together. The project could take place in New York City, and your Voice and others of All Genders to be added for this call for action and progress as we go forth into 2020.
Our poets, musicians, doctors, teachers, volunteers and consultants, all of us who want to make a contribution to Women's Rights to gather together. Hoping you will receive this message through The New York Times.
By way of introduction, I am a retired secretary and have never been abused in the Work Place, but remain acutely aware that women are often more vulnerable in society and on all fronts. My father was a charming 'Wolf', and earlier a cousin in Oregon in an exchange of weather casually told me that she had been raped on several occasions when young. I did not ask her to explain.
With appreciation for considering the above, I remain with best regards,
I agree with the author, but I doubt that what she requests is likely to ever occur. Most people tend to not care about social problems unless they are directly affected. If as many men were sexually assaulted as women, you would see a different reaction from men. In addition, how many people who comment on such problems online actually take any action offline? Why not volunteer at a rape crisis center? Or is it just easier to type a few words stating what you think “we” should do?
1
It just gets old to see this over and over and over. From childhood incest to early marriage to abandonment by that unfaithful non supportive ex spouse and a child to raise, to the sexual accostment by predatory males on a young mother working in a horrible industry that paid women's wages half a man's because "she should be married and doesn't need it" to multiple unwanted sexual encounters and rapes that had to be shrugged off to finally be tired of it and fight back. It took me 8y to begin the process of being me and taking and doing men's jobs, driving fork lifts and then working as the first woman in a petroleum tank farm and finding an actually decent man to feel OK to enter with some trepidation a woman's profession, nursing, at age 42. But I chose psychiatric nursing as nurses in medical areas were just too tolerant of the "old boy" medical doctors who expected them to get up when they entered a nurse's station. I was way past being able to tolerate that entitled behavior. Most psychiatrists were not like that and in my original hospital there were as many female as male psych docs. In the more religious hospital from which I retired, there were few female doctors at all. I also have NO faith in religion due to its intense paternalism that would love to put women back in their place as chattel.
So yeah, after a lifetime spent dealing with this personally, I would dearly like to see real change instead of the one step forward two steps back that has been happening.
5
I just love being accused of something I've never done, never considered doing, and which is alien to my moral compass!
4
Has it occurred to the writer that practically all of these men were raised primarily by women, and that those raised with the least paternal involvement, often due a decision by the woman who bore them and chose what genes and character the father would contribute, tend to be the worst behaved?
2
KBronson, so you have any proof for this? What a piece of fiction about human reproductive biology!
1
Fact: Most women experience sexual harassment and or assault. In fact, most women I know experience these things throughout their lives, beginning when they are girls and progressing through to being old ladies.
Most of this lived experience is meted out to women by the men in their lives, the men who live around them; in their homes, neighborhoods, the men who attend their schools and workplaces and churches.
Now there are enough good men that we don't completely give up hope on men. But this has become trying. When women talk about men in terms of assault and harassment, it's because it's men. It certainly isn't men, but this should be a given in the conversation. It is completely unacceptable to have "not me" thrown back as defense. If it's not you, kudos. You are why we women still hold out hope for men.
But "not me" has to become, "and not my brother, either." You are responsible for one another; too many of you do this for you to drop that ball; because what women experience, we experience out there in the wild living with men. We quickly learn that it can come from any direction; and this knowledge is the price you all pay, for it shades how open and honest we can be with you. Many women learn to hold themselves back, from men, avoiding many an opportunity for friendship (not romance) because too many of you are not safe, and we cannot know who will turn on us. Often, it's the men we trust and admire the most who harm us. It may not be You, but it is you men.
2
I'm going to take a wild guess that the overly defensive men with the lame "not all men" trope didn't read the article because because every last one of them was at least one of the examples cited in the article.
Yes. We have a *very* long way to go.
6
While the author certainly makes a point, it is also the responsibility of all women to stop using their sexuality as currency in both professional and social circles.
Attractive, young women marrying rich older men is nothing more than prostitution. Until women quit offering themselves in this regard, the power dynamics of sexual assault will not be conquered.
Men are awful, no question, but the women who behave badly are guilty of perpetuating the stereotype that sexuality can be bought and sold.
3
I agree with the main points of your essay, but you, too, are contributing to the problem. You don't get to decide what's assault and what's not. When you make the unsupported claim that some men "didn't belong on the list because their behavior wasn't sexual", you miss the point. It's not about sex. And you make this assertion without knowing the facts. You are deciding who's on the list, who was really sexually assaulted and who wasn't. You don't get to decide. The victim and the courts do. When I recently posted online that I had been assaulted, there were women that said, "whatever happened, I'm sorry you felt assaulted". I FELT assaulted. Not I was assaulted. Fortunately the police agreed with me. Women decide. Women don't trust women. Women silence women. And that needs to be said, too.
2
Maybe if Hillary Clinton came forward with what she knows or has heard we could make some progress, but I doubt it.
1
The defensiveness rather than introspection I see in responses here are part of the problem. Clearly, to me at least, Ms. Gay is not saying that every man abuses women. She is saying that most men contribute to a male culture that gives a certain permission to abuse. It is the part of the culture in which women are things not people, where the first reaction to women are their sexual attractiveness. It is the part of the culture which thinks highly of the promiscuous man and calls women who have sex 'sluts'. It is the part of the culture that teaches that having money or power is evidence of masculinity. It is the part of culture that regards the best way to humiliate a boy is to say he is like a girl. It is the part of culture that teaches that all relationships between people are about power, sex, or both. It is the part of culture that refers to women as "it" or "that". It is the part of culture that appraises women as bodies. It is the part of culture that assumes women are lying. It is a part of culture that assumes that the problem of assault is exaggerated. Anyone or either gender who either buys into that culture or stays silent in the face of its toxic assertions is a part of the problem. Ms. Gay is asking men to change the culture of masculinity to a less toxic one. She is right in suggesting that men have more power to do that.
162
"most men contribute to a male culture that gives a certain permission to abuse (women)."
So that is the thesis statement of this argument? My grandfathers, my dad, my uncles, my brother, my best male friends, none of these men contributed in any way to a perceived 'male culture' that allows abuse of women. Acutally, quite to the contrary, all of these men and me have learned and taught that abuse of anyone is not acceptable. Humiliation of others is the greatest sin, that was the theme of human relations in my home.
How would you accept this thesis statement:
"Most women contribute in part to a female culture that gives a certain permission to titillate (men)"
Thanks Kate! Yes! Exactly!
I fail to see the part where she makes a carve out for good men. She opens with "bad men" and ends with all men. Women have my respect regardless of the words this author uses, but feminists are often their own worst enemies. In college I had scores of rude women tell me they can open their own doors. That's fine but commercial doors are heavy and I hold them for men too and I was raised to especially hold them for people who are female and weight less than the door. So who is in the wrong? The person being polite or the person being rude?
3
Let's talk about all these serial abusers, i.e., ??? — Where are they? Why haven't they been outed?
Seriously, the entire celebrity world's almost exclusive focus is HW. But reading this column one can't help wondering, what's the deal.
1
Me. Gay. You are blaming the innocent just because they share the same gender as the guilty. Imagine telling law-abiding black people that it is their job to “step up” and stop other black people from committing crimes.
8
I don't think she is saying that. Men in our culture have power and privilege, and some, abuse it. Your analogy doesn't translate into PoC being responsible for each other to step up. Their (mine, as I am a PoC) cultural capital as a group cannot be compared, even as males in that (or any group in a patriarchal society) may exert more power over women. It is men, indeed, who need to step up. The author simply expresses the need for men to be unafraid to look at their own part in a culture of culpability. Please be an ally.
3
#IWill
3
I was sexually assaulted by a Catholic priest when I boy. I shared about my horrid experience on social media this week. So I’m part of the chorus of voices saying, as you put it, “me too, me too, me too.”
What a deeply insensitive way to diminish the victims of sexual abuse. But I’m sorry for your painful experiences, for what it’s worth.
What else do I need to do to satisfy the voices on the NYT op-ed page? Please tell me exactly what I need to post. Because I’m tired too. I really am.
2
The fact is unpleasant stuff happens to guys in the course of life. That's the way it is. To try and hijack this article is not only dismissive of the author's points, dismissive of what women face on a daily basis, dismissive of the abuse of power by fellow makes but also a huge false comparison. And that's offensive.
Here we go, the war on men starts...
8
Get a hold of yourself Ms. Gay. You're assuming, in your paroxysm of righteousness, that all men are either guilty of sexual misconduct or have witnessed it and chosen to remain silent. You are wrong. In fact, hilariously wrong by reaching a conclusion that even a high school student would be dinged for. Yes, sexual misconduct and rape exist. Yes, men who are guilty of sexual misconduct and rape or who have witnessed it and not intervened exist. But to reach the conclusion that therefore all men are somehow guilty of sexual misconduct and rape or have witnessed it and not intervened is such a stunning example of an invalid argument that I'm frankly surprised that the NYT would publish it.
11
I would further add that the unfortunate consequence of the author's saintly posturing--because the author is of course defining herself in relation to all those she denigrates--is to take a hideous and abhorrent behavior and water it down as a a fixed feature of men's behavior. Which is essentially decriminalizing it. A mistake. The kind of behavior Mr. Weinstein engaged in needs to be taken more seriously than that if it's going to end.
2
She didn't say "all men". You read that in to defend your ego.
Typical.
1
While I agree with the author on many points in her essay, I don't think we women can accept that we are totally blameless when it comes to this problem. Mothers need to ask themselves if they have done enough to teach their sons to respect their sisters, their fellow students, and their work colleagues. Furthermore, what example have they shown in their marriage. Is there love and trust and mutual respect?
Women in America voted down the Equal Rights Amendment, and helped elect a president who was openly accused of sexual harassment. Our current First Lady and others justified it "as locker room talk."
Men as fathers and as husbands need to condemn sexual harassment in all its forms and show women they are not closet predators. But the women who give birth to boys who will eventually grow into men and citizens of the community need to assume responsibility as well.
If the men and women of this country get back to the fundamentals and fight to pass an equal rights amendment, we will greatly progress as a nation and start to live up to our motto of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
77
I think you are right. There are two sides (most of the time). Even when mothers do a great job, often the young women a young man meets undermine the lessons. When I was 18 I had a 16 year old girl tell me I could punish her if I wanted. I had no idea what to do with that, since I was raised to treat women with respect. I know women that seek out man after man who hit them. Men are guilty of much, but women have to take a larger part in looking out for themselves and each other and the situation they are in and how they appear. Because women often fail to grasp how visual men are, and why they may have dressed up for only one man, they send signals to every man they meet.
Maybe fathers need to ask themselves if they have done enough to teach their sons to be respectful to all women. Why must it all be the woman's responsibility? This is part of the culture that many women are talking about.
2
See? Good point Rachel. What's wrong with not wearing revealing clothing, too? Revealing clothing says "I'm on a man-hunt." And "my only power is sexual." Mothers can teach daughters how to walk, talk and dress (behave) with dignity and nobility.
1
Perhaps it would help the situation of vulnerable women for men to object to sexual harassment and assault that they witness or hear about. However, that is no substitute for women standing up for their rights. The more strenuously that victims object to harassment and assault, the harder it will be for perpetrators to believe that it really is OK to mistreat women, and for authority figures to ignore complaints. Lasting change will only occur when harassers and rapists are exposed and charged with the crimes they have committed, which only the victims can make happen.
1
I spent more than a few hours educating my daughters on how to respect themselves and protect themselves. All my friends with daughters did the same. I think their are fewer parents with boys who are having long conversations about these things. Not because they don't care, because it's not a safety issue for them. I think if parents start talking to sons about this phenomenon it would bring this issue out of the shadows, and empower young men to stand against this horrific behavior.
2
It seems to me that the men who are being defensive are misreading the article.
Despite the title (which was selected, I assume, to emphasize the new hashtag) I didn't see anywhere in the article an attempt to implicate all men equally.
My assumption was that Ms. Gay was, in fact, asking all men simply to look deeply - perhaps more deeply than they ever have - and ask themselves if action they've ever taken, at any point in their lives, in any way, has made a woman uncomfortable due to the sexual implications of the action (already, I can imagine men reading this and being defensive - hold on for a second).
So, I thought, what is there is to lose in engaging in this process of deep reflection?
I took stock of every offense she mentioned, and couldn't think of any examples from my life (I'm 65). But I still thought it worth going further. I looked at the comments. When I got to descriptions of subtle ways in which women were pressured into having sex, I recognized at least one instance.
I don't think it helps for a commenter to say, as I could, "But women have attempted to pressure me in the same way."
Several of the female commenters made this point beautifully by asking us men to imagine living in the reverse situation. I do recall (when much younger!) walking through gay neighborhoods and experiencing something of what women must feel.
But I can choose not to go into gay neighborhoods. For women, the whole world is what those gay neighborhoods were for me.
8
Yes, thank you!
My wife and I have been speaking up about it since the Sixties, when we spent a lot of time and energy fighting for several important causes. This one managed to persist.
I can assure you I'm all male; I'm still speaking up about it. It's not the mouth that's the problem, it's the ears.
The previous two elections were about race, and we won. For the last one we changed one letter, replaced the 'c' with a 'p', and the ugly underbelly rose up in a panic.
We'll keep speaking out. Next time, we'll get it right.
--Tom (and Kay) Rogers
4
There definitely *is* a problem. A 58-year-old man in these comments actually believes he's never witnessed an act of harassment...which sort of speaks to how ordinary these acts are.
As a high school student, I was cat-called while out running more times than I can even recall. Once a car full of guys followed me long enough that, for the first time in my young life, I understood how vulnerable I was. I didn't feel safe until I'd run through some yards, making my way closer to home, losing the car in the process.
In one of my first jobs a male co-worker who was older than me would walk past me in the narrow corridors, making a point of rubbing himself against me. One day he walked up behind my desk where I was sitting and casually started rubbing my shoulders, as if he were doing me a favor. That's when I knew his touching me was intentional all along and I told him to never do it again.
In my first job out of college I attended a breakfast seminar on masonry engineering. I was the only woman in a room of male engineers. During the mid-morning break I struck up a casual conversation with another engineer, - who happened to be older than my dad - as one does at these things. By the time I went back to work that day he'd propositioned me. I thought I was networking, he thought he was gonna get laid!
13
After reading the comments and positions I firmly believe these ills will only be affected through updating our educational curriculum to emphasize respect and compassion. Early education is the answer, not backend band aids.
Girl Scouts sell cookies (sweet)
Boy Scouts sell batteries (power)
Let's switch this around for a few years and see what happens...
46
mostly girlscouts are selling popcorn, and boyscouts are selling popcorn too now... turns out popcorn is cheap and profitable :)
So let's outlaw men.
4
Your comment raises the question: Can men think, or do they simply respond to arguments illogically on the basis of their emotions?
3
Oh, dear. This might be part of why Ms. Gay is so tired....
1
Thank you for this article. It is much needed. On the one hand I feel exhausted that such an article is still needed. On the other hand, just reading some of the men‘s comments here is living proof that it is needed. So thank you.
21
Exactly. It is invigorating to read her column; it is exhausting to read some of the men's comments here.
An interesting assertion, Dr. Hiebsch. What I *have* noticed from commenters identifying as men is a generalized resistance to the idea that all men or even most men are guilty or somehow complicit. Perhaps it’s that disinclination to participate in the mass mea culpa Ms. Gay (and perhaps you, yourself) appears to prefer that offends you.
In any case, I won’t go on at length. The Times seems to have deleted one comment and two replies of mine in this thread, all well-reasoned, but all disputing the idea that there’s anything resembling a “rape culture” in the U.S., of which women are the primary victims. I quoted reputable sources and even the seminal 2014 article by feminist icon Hanna Rosin, "When Men Are Raped: A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault, and women are often the perpetrators."
Actual facts (as Ms. Rosin's title attests) invariably remind us that violence and sexual violence are entirely human problems, where the predators are men and women, both, and the victims too are men and women, both.
That you aren’t seeing the kind of comments that would gratify you is, I suspect, due to misconception on your part rather than something vile in the commenters themselves--and is also due to outlets such as the Times deleting the sort of fact-based comments that if allowed to stand would go a long way towards correcting false impressions on the nature and victimology of sexual violence.
Absent mind-reading, it can be difficult to know whether attention is unwanted, so perhaps the only solution for this very real problem is simply never to pay attention. More seriously, this problem, like so many others, is often caused or exacerbated by miscommunication. Because communicating about straight-forward things is relatively easy, people tend to assume that all communication is. But it isn't - it's probably the most difficult thing humans do (which is why only humans even try). Communication is only straightforward when people share exactly the same point of view - but then it's not communication, but mere chitchat. Possibly men and women do not have exactly the same point of view, for some obscure but oddly persistent reason.
5
Are. You. Kidding? You can't TELL when you're saying something inappropriate? The stunned silence, glares, walking away don't give you a clue? Then you have some mental, psychological, or personality disorder.
1
Your comment is disingenuous. You KNOW if you are cat-calling a woman as she walks down the street minding her own business if the attention is unwanted. You KNOW that cornering a female coworker and asking her out for drinks puts her in an uncomfortable position (if she says no she still has to work with you everyday). You know that staring at a woman's breasts while she talks is unacceptable. You KNOW that once someone says no to you that should be the end of it. You KNOW if you are pestering and guilt tripping a woman into having sex with you. So just stop. Stop with the false obtuseness and take responsibility for your own behavior.
2
Don’t lump all men together, period. This gay man has never ever harassed any woman or man. This talk needs to go both ways. Women too often want their cake and to eat too. I have often watched as women use their sexuality to get what they want from a straight man. Many female friends have crowed about getting out of speeding tickets by playing the sex card. Yes, men need to change but if we are moving to equality we have to treat each other with respect. No telling men they have to open the door for you because your female. You open doors for people, male or female, because it’s the kind thing to do. Yes, men need to stop the harrasssment now but women need to stop the princess crap. Equality and respect for all!
19
Not sure that “princess crap” and assault/harassment/rape/etc. should be on the same playing field here.
2
Being gay offers no inherent immunity to being sexist. Puh-lease.
What are you so angry about? As a gay man do you not understand systemic oppression?
1
Your tone suggests ALL men are guilty of bad behavior and simply need to confess how bad we all are. Or at the very least we need to call out the abuse we've all witnessed by other men, because of course we all witness it....repeatedly, and do nothing about it. Maybe in your world most men have been bad to you. I'm sorry that's been your experience, but blaming men in general isn't going to help. Of course there are men who are scum and were never taught how to behave. But don't suggest we're all guilty or that we all just look the other way. Something I didn't see mentioned in your article was the roll good parenting plays in bringing up boys that are taught how to respect women in the first place, and to never tolerate bad behavior towards women by someone else. As the father of three grown boys, who were taught those lessons early, and live by them, I think your apparent view of men as born abusers is irresponsible, and just wrong.
19
"I think your apparent view of men as born abusers is irresponsible, and just wrong."
Not only wrong, but an embarrassment for the Times to publish.
99.87% of all American men managed not to be arrested for a violent crime last year, and sexual offenses or partner abuse made up only a small fraction of the 00.13% who were arrested for a violent crime. The idea that men, generally, are violent or prone to violence, is obscene.
We also know that, from a conclusive 2007 American Psychiatric Association (and numerous other such studies), "these findings on intimate partner violence come from a study conducted by scientists [showing] ... In fact, 71 percent of the instigators in nonreciprocal partner violence were women."
http://psychnews.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176%2Fpn.42.15.0031a
When only one partner in a heterosexual pairing is violent, then, more than 7 times of 10 it is the women who is violent. The caricature of the wife-beating husband whose victim does not instigate nor reciprocate is in fact the *least* common scenario of domestic violence, but has the Times ever published so much as a single article on this plain fact of partner violence? If it has, I can't recall it.
Like so many mass media outlets, the Times routinely strikes comments pointing out these straightforward facts, thereby contributing to the stereotyping of men as aggressors, and women as passive victims. That's truly a shame.
1
You must live in Pleasantville. Kudos. Most people don’t. You may want to consider their lives.
1
I am a brother to 3 sisters and a father to two daughters and the thought that any of them have been or even might have been subjected to sexual harassment is abhorrent. As is no doubt my own behaviour!? I put a question mark here as I simply do not know where one crosses the line in the grey middle. That the Weinstein's of this world, many a priest etc etc are horrible, criminal predators is easy to determine and agree with. In that context, I think that the current publicity around Weinstein is a great wake-up call to all and certainly to men. I am afraid that like the scandal in the Catholic church this too will fade and that should not happen. Therefore it is clear that men, that I (I do not presume to speak for my gender) have a task in ensuring we monitor our own behaviour and that of others. I am just not sure that effectively branding all of us as predators of some sort of another is helpful in this regard? It makes me feel very defensive and maybe your reaction is so you damn well should be. I would still prefer a dialogue where I am regarded as innocent until proven guilty but I suspect that for the writer I now need to prove I am innocent because as a man I am guilty by definition and no I am not a victim, I am not trying to engender your sympathy, I am trying for dialogue so help me here!
54
Maybe don’t worry about labels like innocent and guilty. Being willing to look within and make a greater effort to speak up about bad behavior you see is a great approach.
7
A good way to start is to change your opening sentence to this:
"I am a [man who exists in society with women] and the thought that any of them have been or even might have been subjected to sexual harassment is abhorrent."
The fact that men only seem to be able to *feel* the impact of harassment when it happens to their wives, girlfriends, and daughters is one of the reasons why we seem unable to sustain this discussion, or to make people understand that it needs to be addressed by our society as a whole.
8
i have male friends with grown daughters that still post pics of half dressed women the same age as or younger than their daughters on their social media pages. Not acceptable. I see married men flirt at work with other women. Not acceptable. I am sure there are biological/testosterone related instances that lead to a "hunt". Not acceptable in the workplace, on the street, at school, waiting in line, etc.
4
OK. I feel terribly guilty about being an oblivious man. But, I tried to do good. I raised a daughter. Dad had one rule for dating daughter in high school. You make my daughter cry, I'll make you cry. My daughter never once, came home crying. I'll try to step-up as an experienced gentleman in today's modern world with much more compassion for today's modern woman. I pray for my daughter and dearest granddaughter. Men, step up.
19
On the one hand, no woman 'conflates milder infractions with the more serious ones.' On the other hand, the 'mild' infractions are part of an overall culture in which the more serious ones can more easily happen.
I have been thinking about a man at the church I attend who insists on calling me "little lady." I do not know him at all beyond the church and not much there. I am also an ordained minister who has, on occasion, preached at that church. While this particular 'mild' infraction (very mild, maybe) is very low on the scale of what I have experienced, this man is comfortable diminishing me - and his wife does not seem to mind either. I'm sure that she, along with many woman, would tell me that 'he doesn't mean anything by it' or 'it's just habit' or that I'm 'too sensitive' if it bothers me.
Still, acceptance of such put-downs are normal is the bottom rung in a society which suggests that it is ok for men to belittle women they hardly know, i.e., that women are less than men, that men have the power (there is always a power dynamic in naming with intimacies which do not fit the actual relationship). None of it is ok. All of it creates a culture of disparity which leads up the ladder all the way to rape.
165
See, this is eye opening, and mind changing. The article is just a bunch of buzzwords and identify politics that is beneath this publication. Only good consequence of that lazy article is seeing comments like yours
2
I learned I am an oblivious man. Your thought process is true, and that is what's so frightening. There may be one other caveat. I'm not trying to be ignorant as well as oblivious, but for me, your response begs the question, are you short? I'm not trying to be funny or facetious. I guess, even if you are vertically challenged, the guy would still be a jerk. Never-mind. I answered my own question, talking out loud. Thank you.
2
Yah, he probably is intimated by you, and jealous. Maybe using an honorific would actually help his emotional reactions. He would then be helping himself see you as a wise person to whom he could turn for advice and fellowship.
It wouldn't hurt for you to say, "Dear Man at Church, I prefer to be called, 'Pastor Hislop," with a smile, no need to be a witch.
Then, later, when he does address you as 'Pastor Hislop," another warm smile, gentle countenance, and a thank you: "I like the sound of that, Man at Church, thank you."
Yesterday, my husband mentioned how awful rape culture is. He's sympathized with my own tales of childhood molestation, and the mild adult experiences I've mentioned--frotteurism, a fast hand up my skirt and through my underwear on a bus, a guy whose face I shredded a bit to get him off me.
But I've never in nearly 50 years mentioned 3 of my rapes, just the 4th, which resulted in an illegal abortion and the near-miss rape by my father. My husband's not my therapist; I don't want to sear even more horrific images into his sweet and loving soul.
And, despite his sweet empathy, I decided not to mention the two marital rapes that *he* committed about 40 years ago. I was so used to being man-handled back then; and he had simply got what he was sure he was due, pushing my protests aside. I'd just tamped down the flashbacks and moved on.
As usual.
I bet my date rapists also look back fondly on those occasions when they finally pushed hard enough to get what they wanted from me. I imagine that today they're mildly sympathizing with the "Me too" women and never feeling a thunderclap of: "Dear God, *I* committed rape!"
35
I am so truly sorry what you have experienced and I wish you the best. Much love to you.
4
Thank you for courageously adding your voice here.
"And, despite his sweet empathy, I decided not to mention the two marital rapes that *he* committed about 40 years ago."
I'm having difficulty understanding how your husband has "sweet empathy" based on the second part of this statement. You appear to be too kind and forgiving.
Why is there no criticism of women who use every trick in the book to try and seduce a happily married man. Is that not also sexual harassment?
61
Sexual harassment is as much about power as it is about sex. Trying to seduce someone who is not AFRAID of the consequences of saying no is not harassment. Add fear in to the mix and you have harassment.
1
No, if he's happily married, why is he falling for any "seduction?" Yet another case of pushing the blame onto the woman. I wouldn't be surprised if you said they give in eventually because their wives weren't doing everything right. When does this stop?!
2
Flirting is not the same as sexual harassment. That is a false equivalency. Furthermore, if someone is happily married, no amount of “seduction” will work on them. Unwanted sexual touches, sexually explicit comments, and inappropriate behavior is a huge issue. Women flirting is not.
So I'm supposed to publicly denounce myself, and rat on my friends about their purported crimes? Sounds like the Cultural Revolution.
53
No, you’re just supposed to treat all humans with respect and dignity.
5
If a friend of yours was trying to bully your daughter into sex, wouldn't you want your other friends to drop the dime on him to you?
1
You can either be for or against the "crimes". The choice is yours. Can you live with your decision.
1
What a joke.
ONE NYT story about men being responsible when 100% of the time it’s a man who is responsible!
Both men and women enable these creeps. I’ve heard women say that a certain woman must have been lying about sexual harassment or assault because she wasn’t pretty enough! “Oh she’s just saying that to get attention!”
I lost my job at Pearl Harbor as a civilian worker when I accused two Marine officers who taught at Annapolis of rape and GBH. (Great Bodily Harm) I was told to back off or I would hurt THEIR careers! We were involved in a 5,000 troop military exercise back in 1979 and I was the only woman there as I was the only MD who was a trauma expert.
I was asked what I had “against” military officers to want to “ruin them.” After I got out of the hospital for a fractured jaw, ribs, skull, and ruptured spleen, I was called in by both the Commanding Officer and Executive Officer of Joint Base Pearl Harbor-Hickam AFB. I needed to drop my complaint even though the assault happened off base in Hilo. I didn’t bivouac with the guys, I drove down to stay in a hotel--“safer that way.”
Every JAG officer, every commander was against me. I couldn’t do it on my own, so I quit.
Then they asked me to stay until they could find another trauma expert! Thirty years later I would have fought. Back then I was alone as no military woman or man would stand with me.
We are ALL enablers. Each of us needs to needs to examine what we say, or how we act. And djt made it worse.
87
It may be too late to prosecute them, but it's not too late to name them - your attackers, the base CO and XO, and the Jags included. No one should get a free pass for that.
Sounds like they tried to tell you, like many of the men commenting here, that you womenfolk should have known what you signed up for when you were born female.
Thank you for sharing your horrific story. Seems like one that should be told everyday until it is finally actually heard.
>>>Women are being hysterical, they say. Women are being humorless. Women are being oversensitive.<<<
Generally, it's hard to come up with three straw men in just as many sentences, but Roxane Gay manages to do just that.
I am a man - a relatively well-read one, I might add - and I have not seen any of these 3 defenses used, at least not in the recent mainstream press. Tellingly, the author does not cite any contemporaneous examples of such lame excuses.
52
Okay, then let me write some words down for you so you will have read them somewhere.
As a woman, I've heard these sorts of things many times. For example, decades ago my workplace commonly received certain calendars from a vendor which featured well-endowed women in suggestive poses with plumbing tools. They hung on every wall in the place. One day, I pointed out that girlie calendars were a little inappropriate in a engineering office, and I was told women's bodies were beautiful and I was being too sensitive. The women are not naked, so how can I complain? It's just like we dress at the beach. When I pushed forward and said we weren't at the beach, and it made me uncomfortable to see them hanging everywhere, and I mean everywhere, I was told not to get hysterical.
I didn't think I was hysterical. I just considered it a little demeaning having to see multiple photos of a scantily clad woman with a rather large pipe wrench.
That's a benign example. I won't go into the disgusting stuff I was told I had no sense of humor about, or that I shouldn't get upset about because they didn't mean anything by it.
6
Those '3 defenses' aren't being cited in 'recent mainstream press' - Sadly, and horrifyingly, those 3 defenses (and others) are what women hear over and over and over again when they rebuke men's unwanted advances. Also, as women grimly try to withstand it, we are told we should smile, we would be more attractive IF we smiled, we are told we must noT like men (since we don't want to have sex with that particular man), and are told 'something terrible must have happened to us' (since we don't want to have sex with that particular man).... The author isn't pulling these 'defenses' out of a hat, and doesn't need to provide contemporary media examples to corroborate: these are common reality, widely known and experienced.
2
We hear it ALL THE TIME in our private lives when we speak out.
3
Is rape and sexual abuse against the law? If a man rapes or sexually abuses a woman and she does not report him to the police, will he rape or sexually abuse another woman? We need to take the shame out of being a victim. It stops when you seize the power and make it stop. We have the power. The system doesn't always work the way it should, but then it's up to us to make it work better. Why wait until the guy is over the hill and has racked up numerous victims? Their suffering is on you if you let him slide.
22
"Their suffering" is on no one but the perpetrator. Women are routinely disbelieved, shamed, and worse for reporting these men. And this happens when they are already traumatized. We need to change the culture to make it safe to report these attacks, and stop victim shaming.
3
Can someone please explain to me what Rape Culture is? I grew up in this country in the 60's and 70's. I have never even thought of raping anyone, nor has anyone I know ever done anything like it.
But I was once told by woman I pursued (and lost) that if I wanted her I "should have just taken her".
Was that Rape Culture?
51
"Rape culture" was coined by documentarians in 1975 to describe the trivialization of the crime of rape in male prisons, where rape was rarely if ever punished, where corrections officers used the threat of rape as a coercive tool, and where even gang rape--but only of men--was treated as a joke.
"Rape culture" today, when correctly used, refers at its broadest to U.S. culture both within and without male prisons, where the idea of a man being raped is treated even in mainstream network television as the height of hilarity and where the threat of rape against suspects and uncooperative witnesses when made by the "hero" police on shows like Law & Order passes entirely without comment.
Imagine for a moment that the rape of a woman in the U.S. was treated and thought of the way we think of (and entirely dismiss) the rape of a man. That indeed would constitute "rape culture," and we can be thankful that women, at least, are not subjected to it.
We're still working on that as regards men, obviously, particularly in the U.S. where groups like Prison Watch and Human Rights Watch assert that more men are raped by men and women, than women are raped by men and women. Yet the rape of men receives easily less than one-one hundredths of the attention, even as writers like Roxane Gay would have us believe we don't take the plight of female victims of sexual violence seriously.
If that's true (it isn't), imagine how utterly dismissive we are of male victims--that's "rape culture."
1
Yes, that was rape culture.
It’s the minimization of rape, it’s consequences the cultural conditions that permit it.
I want someone to come up with a way to make an anonymous list so I can call out the coach and counselor l who raped me when I was 14. Someone-- do it, please. These men need to be named -- and that is the only way I would feel safe. (And dont tell me to go to the justice system-- it is not (as of yet) "just" for victims unfortunately.)
22
You're anonymous here. What's holding you back? (Other than the censors.)
1
Tweet on #metoo
1
Al Capone said "You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone."
I think that many of these sexual harassment problems would vanish if women were armed.
14
I do not carry a gun because I know how easily it could be used against me in this type of situation. If I am in close contact with a man, which most of these situations necessitate, the reality is a gun or a knife could be wrenched out of my hand and used to put me in more danger than I already am.
2
And the attackers may likely take that gun and kill the woman. Do you think all victims would be quick enough in a surprise attack? You've been watching too many cowboy movies.
2
...Because men arent generally stronger than women and couldn't take that gun away and use it on her?
If you were a male student of Ms. Gay, would you be confident you would be treated fairly, or would you think you would be stereotyped? I think the answer is obvious.
79
No, it isn't. If you were a white student of a black professor who had spoken against racism, do you also think you'd be treated unfairly?
I see - the “male as fragile snowflake” defense.
1
Wow - from the comments you’d think American men were unable to hear the tiniest request to carry half the load for the kind of culture we want for our daughters. Why is asking men to speak up some unreasonable, insulting threat to a self-perceived innocence?
249
Those in power have blinders on so that they may continue their precious lives uninterrupted by the uncomfortable realities affecting half the human race.
3
A couple of things. The author is not asking men to speak up and report the sexual harassment they witness. That would just be a reasonable call to action. Instead she is asking males to self-report offenses she assumes we have committed.
You use the words "self-perceived innocence" as if every man who does not believe they are sexually harassing or sexually assaulting women at work is lying, even to himself. The tricky thing about detecting wrongdoing is that innocent people AND guilty people say they haven't done anything wrong. Demanding an admission of wrongdoing is almost certainly pointless if someone is guilty (they have every reason to conceal their actions) and absurd if the person is innocent.
2
because you have lumped all men together as resistant to criticism just as ms. gay did. Rather than "American men" consider asking "Why are so many comments here so sensitive to criticism of the behavior of men who sexually harass, abuse, rape women.
It's very disheartening that the majority of the comments I've read here are "But IM not a predator, Roxane! And I'm a MALE! You are wrong/have oversimplified/are an angry (bad) feminist"
I was really hoping for: "I hear you, I will do better. I will hold those around me to a higher standard to be better too."
Why is this so hard? Why are you more concerned with being called out than addressing the problem? She wrote a short article--read her books, you really want to tell her she's oversimplifying this problem? She has BOOKS about this gents.
232
Likely because they have done some of the behavior, and feel ashamed.
4
When sweeping generalizations are constantly being used in argument against you, what are you to respond? Further, many of us men, myself included, wish to be seen as your allies. We are your fathers, brothers, husbands, and friends, but have been consistently called predators. It is natural to want to defend yourself against such a derogatory charge. I have been hearing of sexual assaults and harassment for my entire adult life. It is unconscionable that anyone should be treated that way. I hear you! I am angry too. But if you wish me to take risks on your behalf, stop referring to me as a predator.
I'm a woman -- like so many, I have experienced sexual harassment -- and I still don't this whole "every man is to blame" malarkey. In time, that attitude will backfire on the left.
You don't "call out" people who have done nothing wrong, and force them to "confess" and get "retrained, so they profess the approved lefty liberal beliefs".
I was on a university campus last night. I overheard this comment from a father to his son “if you tag a runner out at home and then throw another out at second, that’s huge. That’s a great play. And guess who will get the girl that night?” Another father and son were with them, and all 4 laughed and nodded in agreement.
So - to all the good guys who don’t know what women are talking about, who have never seen or heard a rape or sexual assault, who never have done anything but ‘respect women’ : how would you respond to that comment? Do you see women as prizes? As decor? Do you laugh on agreement when women are referred to as such? Be honest - what would your response be? And can you see how your reaction might contribute to the cultural degradation of women?
325
You missed the point entirely Shiloh.
The father and other men there were motivating that young man by reminding him, from their obviously shared experience (that's what the laughter is - mutual recognition), of this one simple fact:
Women. Only. Want. The. Winner.
2
What they are implying is not that the player will now be free to rape someone, but that probably more women would consider making THEIR moves on him. And from my experience, that is probably correct.
5
Great example. Thank you.
1
Sterotyping is always wrong. Always. Groups don’t get passes to stereotype other groups.
42
This is a huge reality of millions of women. Not a stereotype.
So much denial.
1
Very well put. And not at all the way the world works.
White people have 'had a pass' to stereotype blacks for hundreds of years in America.
We all have to fight to avoid tribalism. That's what makes America such an exciting experiment in Democracy! 'Out of many, one.'
What evidence do you have that she is stereotyping? Your sweeping generalizations are a textbook example of stereotyping. You sound angry, entitled, and scared, and my evidence of that is your lack of evidence to justify your empty judgment.
1
I am with you, Ms. Roxane Gay, all the way. We men can all do better. I am from a family wherein one of my grandfathers molested his daughters and granddaughters, for decades, and his wife and sons (except one) protected him form his accusers. I am persona non grata among many in my family because I believe and have relationships with his victims... So i know all too well what you mean when you say you are "filthy with the subject." But the term "rape culture" - and i know this is anathema to modern feminist thought - but isn't this term just a bit hyperbolic? "Rape culture" to my ear just sounds like a condition so innate and universal and omnipresent that it can never be changed. Like we might as well not even try... and I really don't want to feel that way. I want to think that we can do better. Just saying.
23
You're misled. "Culture" is not innate. Culture is based on many factors, principally ideas. Cultures change all the time. Witness how different the 60s were from the 50s. Think of the progress we've made in many arenas, but also about how conservative forces create resistance and backlash--such as the rise of the religious right. Culture can change, but not always for the better. That's on us.
You just relayed multi-generational sexual abuse in your family whereby believing the victims made you invisible to the family.
Then you ask, “but is rape culture” a thing.
Seriously, you asked that question.
2
The reality, even from a sympathetic soul as yourself, seems to be too huge for you.
And yes, there absolutely is a rape culture. The label is sadly and horribly right on target. It. Is. That. Bad.
2
Men - let's try it this way. If 95% of all murders were committed by women, would we have a problem with women and murder? What if you had a 25% chance of being murdered by a woman - would you feel threatened alone in their presence? What if while at work women had pictures visible of men in precarious situations, maybe a knife about to plunge into them or a gun at their head? Would you think it's not appropriate? Would you ask that woman for a raise?What if, while at college, over some casual beers with a buddy you discovered that the same women attempted to murder you both and when you went to the school they told you both, separately, it was an isolated incident and it would be easier not to proceed with an investigation? I don't know why so many of you have such a hard time getting your head around this. It's sickening. If it sounds like a witch hunt to you, you sound guilty to me.
203
Julie, very well said. Thanks for speaking out.
2
Hanna Rosin, rightly a feminist icon as well as the author of "The End of Men," is happy to call out you and yours, julie, in her article (you can easily find it on Slate) titled, ""When Men Are Raped: A new study reveals that men are often the victims of sexual assault, and women are often the perpetrators."
Read that again: "Women are often the perpetrators." We also know, thanks to every annual DHHS "Child Maltreatment Report," that mothers acting alone are the primary abusers, by far, of children, just as we know that mothers commit the majority of parent murders of children under 13.
We know that according to the APA if only one partner in a heterosexual marriage is violent, 71% of the time that partner is the woman. The caricature of spousal violence, of a man beating a woman, is in fact the least common form of such violence. We also know from endless studies that among all domestic partnerships violence and sexual violence are most prevalent in lesbian partnerships.
In short, in the age of the internet there's no longer the slightest excuse for your attempt to demonize men and paint women as the victims. Do the research, then have the opinion. That's how it works--or at least, should work, in something as important as this.
Violence and sexual violence are human problems. Concealing an entire gender's worth of perpetrators won't help the victims, and presumably this is, or should be, about helping the victims, not casting aspersions that make us feel better.
2
Right on.
So, all men share a collective guilt, and must do penance. Wow! The warning of a "witch hunt" a few days ago sounds positively quaint now.
45
Oh fer crying out loud. Asking men to be responsible and respectful and to create a good culture is hardly a witch hunt. Step up. We all have daughters and nieces and mothers and sisters who live in the world we create together.
3
Asking men to speak up about rape culture and call it out when they see it happening around them is penance? If so, you're a part of the problem.
3
And how dare those “uppity women” expect justice and cooperation from the other half of the human race?
Afraid of accountability or change just flat out terrifies you ? Z
2
Nancy here is about ready to bring out the divorce papers. Her guy is ... utterly indifferent. Over the years Nancy has developed a shell, a chip. So she responds a bit too intensely when decent men interact with her in the way that all men should, despite her awareness. The wounds are just to deep. But Nancy's trials are just occupational. Small potatoes next to multitudes of others.
Multiply this over millions and the loss of human potential is staggering.
14
Don't you think everyone has scars? God speed Nancy.
While the Weinsteinesque Behaviour was / is truly abhorrent and deserves to be illuminated and condemned, some of the comments on this section display the breadth of the gulf that seems to widen daily between individual Americans.
Viewed from this side of the Pacific the American society seems to be increasingly polarised in all aspects
20
Not at all an American problem. It is global and denial does not help the women in your country.
"So many people want to believe there are only a few bad men. So many people want to believe they don’t know any bad men. So many people do not realize they are bad men. "
This wording shuts down conversation. It elevated misandry - all men are bad. Change"man" for any other minority and this rhetoric would be unacceptable. This is not the way to make men part of the solution.
64
Please re read the passage you quoted. She is not saying all men are bad, she is saying the problem is far more pervasive than men realize.
2
Yes, another example of feminist theorists who feel righteously entitled to define men. Sorry, being a man is a full and nuanced experience, not a reductionist theory.
But men are not a minority, they are half of the population and all over the world women as a class (not individuals) are considered second class to men. It's a fact and evident everywhere. It was not so long ago we couldn't even vote or get a credit card. We were prizes or chattel, something to be owned or possessed, our chastity and purity a matter of 'honor' thus honor killings. If a man wanted to hurt his enemy he could defile 'his' women through sexual assault or seduction thereby asserting his dominance over the other man. Rape has long been a tool of invading armies. Why? Things may take a slightly different form today in the US, but the motives behind remain the same.
1
Fine. We'll start a two-word hashtag, and the media can go on about how men have poured forth their apologies, even if most of them just repeat the two words.
You left 2 things out. "Women are being hysterical, they say. Women are being humorless. Women are being oversensitive. Women should just dress or behave or feel differently." You overlooked the many men, including celebrities, who have publicly said they feel badly about not doing something about what they were aware of. Second, your column makes it sound as if when they become adults well-behaved kids become attackers. I have two sisters. By the time I was three or four my mother, who had been a widow for a few years, had made it clear that boys don't hit girls. Period. I didn't become out of control as an adult.
7
How you managed to distort Ms. Gay's column in such a bizarre, comic way is just astonishing. What does that say about you? Why are you so defensive? What evidence do you have that the article "column makes it sound as if when they become adults well-behaved kids become attackers." WHERE does she state this? Where is that even implied? Do you honestly think your reckless statement passes for any kind of argument? Congratulations on not hitting your two sisters. Why does it sound like you're asking us to pin a medal on your chest for rising to a minimum standard of decency toward fellow family members, much less other human beings? Did you read this article at all? Do you have any idea what sexual harassment is?
2
Seems we have a male thread that boils down too “here are a few statements of nice guys. You women are not acknowledging our meager efforts with emotional trophies. We’re sad and unappreciated. We taking our ball and going home !”
Honest to God, we are so sick of being your emotional mommies round the clock. Grow up. Educate yourself. The problem is huge. Throwing a few sympathy sentences out there is not enough. Stop going along with the denigrating guy-talk among your peers. Buck up. Take a real stand.
2
Just a couple of cents from me.
Men, being the more aggressive of the sexes, have to understand reality and try to control themselves regarding women. We don't even realize how we agress - it's so common.
The attraction to women is natural but one must be in control and understand inappropriate behavior.
I find myself staring at an attractive woman at times.
But, I've conditioned myself to catch this behavior and curb it quickly. Because it makes someone uncomfortable to be stared at. It's creepy. So, even though I want to look, I stop myself. Just don't do it.
If two people catch each other's eye or if a man wants to say hello - of course - that's natural. But, don't push it if it's not happening.
A woman can dress as she wants.
It may attract attention.
But, a man has to understand right from wrong.
Self control. Practice makes perfect.
This is low level stuff.
Actually, forcing oneself on another person is a criminal act.
Assault is a crime.
Battery is a crime.
What gives anyone the license to do that?
Talking about all this will help raise consciousness.
Some men's comments are defensive.
Being lumped in with the guilty is no fun.
But, stop and think.
Do you occasionally leer and stare?
You may not even be aware of it.
Think about the recipient of such seemingly innocent behavior.
92
Okay, but I know from experience that I get attention from women if I am dressed well. I have participated in martial arts, dance and gymnastics for over 20 years. Some of these activities involved baggy clothes, while tighter clothes were worn at other times. Both are good for moving. I agree, women should dress as they want to, and be respected. But we are also sexual beings, even the most responsible people. So, what is up with super-tight, super-revealing clothes that many women wear in public, or at the gym? Of course it is their right, and to be respected, but people are going to notice. Common sense should be part of the equation. As a man, I choose how to dress at work, and socially, based on how I want to be seen in the environment.
19
Do you wonder if women look at men they find attractive? I don’t.
2
I look at an attractive woman with appreciation, not a leer. I'm not ashamed nor will I apologize for it. I won't apologize for all men being pigs either, we're not. The balance of power between the sexes has been hashing itself out for as long as we've been around, longer in other species. I won't make excuse for offenders but neither will I accept responsibility for them. I am not oblivious either. This article seems to tell me I am, or am complicit, or outright guilty. If you want an accounting of "ways great and small", how about including women, their hands aren't clean, people have damaged other people throughout history. "No hand in creating"? It's all men?? You have to be kidding.
"It’s time for men to start answering for themselves because women cannot possibly solve this problem they had no hand in creating."
I am with you to the extent that this is an epidemic, but I will not go so far to remove blame from half of the society that is infected with it. That half, as it turns out, has an oversized burden when it comes to child-rearing, that precious period of time when most of our behavioral patterns are formed. I am not willing to take the "all men are bad" approach, just as I am not willing to accept the "I'll vote for her because she's a woman" approach to solving our nation's various problems. People are good or bad, or somewhere in between, regardless of what is between their legs.
There is no lack of women who encourage this behavior, not as objects themselves, but as mothers, wives, or as co-workers. Nothing about dressing up to deserve it, or drinking too much, or anything this article lists as bad behavior, but rather a get it done however you can sort of perspective. For every "bad man" out there, I'm willing to gamble there is a "bad woman" who for one twisted reason or another, sees this signal of manhood as a positive display of sexuality. This does not say the men aren't that bad. It just says that there is some collusion on the other side. Men are, in fact, often quite malicious when it comes to other men, when it comes to power. Women, surprise, are often the same under similar circumstances.
Plenty more where that came from.
16
You seem to have overlooked that Ms. Gay blames women as well as men. Please re-read this section:
"In feminist discourse we talk about rape culture, but the people we most need to reach — the men who are the cause of the problem and the women who feel moved to excuse them — are often resistant to the idea that rape culture even exists.
Women are being hysterical, they say. Women are being humorless. Women are being oversensitive. Women should just dress or behave or feel differently.
Skeptics are willing to perform all kinds of mental acrobatics to avoid facing the very stark realities of living in this world as a woman."
She says women are enablers, and I can tell you from my own experience as a woman that some of the biggest obstacles to women's equality are other women.
This article commits the fallacy of hasty generalization.
All men, even if they don't do what Weinstein and others did, are complicit runs the argument. But the more Ms Gay wrote, the more she antagonized men who do not abuse women. The underlying assumption is that the majority of men are abusers. One would have expected more rigor from an academic, but alas no.
It comes across as a lengthy rant - and one that, if you disagree with it, makes you complicit.
Surely this important issue warrants more balanced and more nuanced discussion and debate?
52
No, you misread the piece. It does not say all men are complicit. Allow me to quote her thesis: "In feminist discourse we talk about rape culture, but the people we most need to reach — the men who are the cause of the problem and the women who feel moved to excuse them — are often resistant to the idea that rape culture even exists." Notice she says "the men who ARE THE CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM." She does not say that all men are the problem; she says that certain men are. How could you miss this? She also says that women are also part of the problem through excusing (thus enabling) them. Surely you should learn to read with more nuance? Surely you should follow Ms. Gay's suggestions in her final paragraph.
All men are complicit in enabling rape culture. The problem lies in the question “What are men going to do about it?” Where there is no responsibility there is no power.
Just to amplify an earlier comment. Many banks have signs over their ATMs saying, "Don't flash your cash." Are the banks engaged in victim blaming?
21
It is interesting to see so many comments displaying exactly the behavior the writer mentioned in the column. Comment after comment cries that men are being stereotyped, or that it's only a few men, and that most men are really nice! One of the main points of her column was that, whenever sexual violence is brought up, we act as though the feelings of men are more important than the safety of women.
Men everywhere, even if they do not directly commit sexual violence, contribute to the culture where it is okay to treat women as objects. I have heard men in conversation with each other (when they didn't think I could hear) talk about women like they were things to be used. Some men don't participate and stay silent. These men have always been nice to me in person, and I would not think of them as bad people. No doubt they also think of themselves as good guys, because who believes himself to be a villain? But their silence tells other men that this behavior is okay.
This behavior is not okay. We need your help to make it not okay! So, if you are a good man, stop worrying so much about your feelings, and start worrying about what you can do to help us not fear you.
98
Yes, and I have heard women talk of men as things to be used. Looking through this lens reveals a problem, not a solution.
It seems the only answer is to just get rid of all the men, or saddle them with guilt guaranteed to paralyze them.
I've heard hundreds of women engage in the same behavior you accuse of men doing.
To come up with solutions we must state some facts. Fact - the majority of these incidents have no witnesses. Fact - there are documented cases of false accusations. Fact - relatively very few men hold the power positions to be in or witness these incidents. So how do laws or hashtags or the sisterhood and brotherhood coming together in one voice prevent what might happen when two people are alone?
The author discounts things like moderate dress or limiting alcohol. How about do all of the above? These suggestions did not come from the right by the way. It's common sense to always be aware of your environment and to act accordingly.
11
The Weinstein case itself flies in the face of your assertion that these things "happen when two people are alone." There *were* witnesses to what Weinstein did. He maneuvered his employees in ways that made them his accomplices. There were dozens if not hundreds of people who saw things, who helped arrange for him to be alone with women, and who knew things but didn't come forward.
This idea that sexual harassment always happens in a vacuum is dangerous. More often, we are willfully blind and deaf to the colleagues who make lewd comments, engage in unwanted touching, ask to be left alone with a female student or co-worker with the door closed, or hang around in a woman's office door, leaving her no escape from their attention. Professor Gay is asking that we notice and speak up when we see this. The fact that the knee-jerk reaction in this comment section is to claim that adds up to a "witch hunt" is telling.
3
Harassment also occurs in public with strangers. Try again.
1
Babies and nuns are raped. Were they dressed moderately?
1
"It’s time for men to start answering for themselves because women cannot possibly solve this problem they had no hand in creating.”
There is desired attention, unwanted attention, harassment and assault. These form a spectrum of heterosexual women’s experiences of the male gaze.
3
While I've been incredibly lucky, "me too", though not much over a long lifetime. My take from this: harassment (or worse) of women is virtually universal. At the same time, harassment (or worse) by men is not. Therefore, harassment and abuse must be serial. Where does that leave us? We must recognize the universality of the problem and all do our best to call it out when we witness it, for complicity is also an offense, albeit a lesser one.
6
When women feel safe to walk alone outside, whether in urban, suburban, or rural settings, a huge difference will be felt. When human beings all get treated with respect, we will all enjoy our lives better. Meanwhile, most of us have to protect ourselves.
19
This happens to men too. Who do you think gets murdered and physically assaulted at a much higher rate? It's men.
1
I'm in agreement with your whole essay except for the ending.
women DO have a hand in creating the problem. Because too many of us did not, and still do not speak up. Cultural conditioning? No longer an excuse.
But mostly, MEN - you need to stop your bragging and laughing it up when a male friend boasts.
Maybe you are not the predator, but please do not encourage those who are.
8
I just read through the first 25 or so of Readers' Picks. They are overwhelmingly by men, furiously defending themselves and their sex. Not me, not all men, over and over again. They say that Roxane Gay and her ilk are alienating potential allies, that they are conducting a witch hunt, that smearing men with being complicit is the equivalent of racism, and--in one comment--that they are "done with feminism." Ms. Gay sure touched a nerve, didn't she?
Because I read the article. Ms. Gay is doing none of those things. All she is saying is that almost all women have been subjected to sexual harassment and assault. And that we are disbelieved. And that men don't want to hear us because they don't want to "be lumped in with the bad men" so they "make women's pain all about themselves." And sure enough, that's exactly what all those commenters did.
203
Martha Shelley,
Great comment. Thank you for speaking out.
2
I'm female and most of my closest friends are male. They're wonderful, sensitive people and I resent the insulting stereotypes and demands being heaped on them. It's unfair, and if you don't like injustice, don't dish it out.
1
They absolutely proved her point, didn't they?
3
BALONEY !
Like so many women, the author uses the words "sexual harassment", "sexual violence", and "rape culture" interchangeably. She, like so many, don't even define any of the terms. And almost daily they include more and more behaviors as "sexual harassment".
Women do this because they can. Feminists have been successful to get legislatures to enact special laws for women that abandon the law's historic requirement of an objective standard of behavior, a reasonable person standard. Now a subjective standard has become common. This effectively allows each individual woman to determine what behavior by men is legal and what is not. Thus spoiled by legal power, they use the terms "sexual harassment" or "sexual violence" without even defining what behavior they are referring to. And now this author has the gall to berate men for not joining with her to propogate the injustice she demands.
It is now universal behavior in the media to condemn Weinstein in extreme terms. I endorse nothing that he is accused of doing. But what did he actually do? The complainers don't describe him being violent towards them, not even to those complainers who say that they refused his entreaties. Many of the complainers don't even state what they claim he did, they just use the jingoistic term "sexual harassment". Weinstein is pathetic and offensive, but not violent. I don't think most of what he is accused was even really harassment at all, it was just offensive.
15
Right. I bet you never went to a job interview where your boss had his penis sticking out of his bathrobe suggesting a massage if you wanted a script for a film. Read up on it. The guy is a pervert who tried to run people’s careers around. Criminal.
2
Kay:
I agree that the guy is perverted. My point is that it is offensive but not harassment if done once to a person.
You obviously believe that it should be a crime to offend a woman. I think offending anyone is one of the many objectionable things that can occur but which should not be a crime. Not every unpleasantness in life should be a crime. Unpleasantness, even extreme unpleasantness that is offensive, should never be a crime so long as it is nothing more than unpleasant or offensive. If there is more, such as physical harm, then it is properly the subject for criminalization.
Many women think women have a right to a life where they are never offended by men and that any man who offends them should be criminally punished merely for offending them. I think that is injustice. It is unfortunate that selfish, unjust feminists have already been so successful to get legislation passed which gives special legal rights to women to institute such injustice.
Sexual harassment is when a person in authority threatens your job if you don't "play ball". Sexual violence is when a person grabs intimate parts of your body without permission. Rape is when a person does not take "No" for an answer and forces a sexual encounter onto another person.
There, I made it simple for you. But really, if you didn't understand these concepts, you could have just quietly Googled them instead of blaring out your willful ignorance like a foghorn.
2
The left wing penchant for assigning collective guilt to various ethnic groups (well, in reality, just white people) grows tiresome. I have never discriminated against a woman, have hired and promoted women, and have never had an inappropriate moment in my life. Ms. Gay's "Dear Men"does not apply to me. The left proclivity for hating white men and for political correctness helped get Trump elected. Its time they take responsibility for this. Ms. Gay should reconsider her sexist generalities. They are offensive and ignorant.
29
Somehow all women have experienced harassment but no men seem to admit to harassing.
1
This is laughable. No person alive has not been insensitive to the issues of other people. Your imagined purity is ridiculous.
1
Are you implying that women on the right side of the political spectrum are OK with harassment and sexual violence, and that female outrage at that behavior is only a "lefty" thing?
You would be wrong, and your statement would be a slander of the women on the right.
1
Why do women like Paltrow and Jolie get a pass? They are powerful women, they knew about Weinstein -- for years. They said nothing. NOTHING. In the meantime, people want to hold the little people who work for Weinstein accountable!
25
Where there is no responsibility there is no power.
How about some classes on how not to be a pig for boys in high school, like part of phys. ed. Harassment should be dealt with fairly strictly by the employer. Im surprised Weinstein didn't get whacked by a husband of boyfriend.
Women should also acknowledge the stronger drive in men and seems like should dress more conservatively. Also need to address the gold diggers and Kardashian types out there, the opportunists, the teasers, manipulators, attention seekers, etc. There are plenty of mixed messages out there, but it does take a certain kind of pig to misread the messages and persist in face of unwanted advances.
Rather than giving all females a taser gun, maybe we should teach appropriate behavior early on. Like start in 7th grade maybe and repeat the class every year.
6
I'm flabbergasted that you weren't taught these things when you were growing up. I and all of my peers were. Guess what, rape will still happen. You don't think people know that raping someone is evil?
What mystifies me is that Hollywood hasn't come up with many, if any, ideas on how to police itself, how to prevent future Harvey Weinsteins. There seems to be only a handful of men in Hollywood speaking up and out. I thought there would be more. You get the sense that many men are just waiting for this to blow over and people go back to not talking about it. I don't think that is going to happen.
3
Gotta agree with all these comments—for once I'd like to log onto the NY Times website and not be confronted with an opinion article about how terrible I am and how much more important one experience is to another.
It's not deflecting blame to women. What's hilarious were it not so tragic is that for all the griping about "fake liberalism" (a lot of it warranted, sure) we elected a man who doesn't pretend to care about anything but his own perennially withered ego, damn the torpedoes. I think "not raping" and being considerate to everybody is significantly better than someone whose maniacal culture includes "locker room talk" of grabbing another person by the genitals.
Continuing to baselessly divide gender, race and class even more than the horror Trump's brought out in everyone probably isn't what the world needs right now. I didn't vote for Trump. I didn't know about Weinstein's molestation scandals. Anyone who resorts themselves to living in either of their versions of America is bound to find it's a toxic, antagonistic place.
I get up every morning and I deal with self-image and depression and the expectations of society and work and money and relationships and dreams and hope. It is more difficult being a woman—I completely concede to that, and I'll never know that fear. I don't doubt most every woman has a terrible tale of harassment that sickens me and I'd do anything to make them feel safe and worthwhile in dealing with it. I've got feelings, too, Ms. Gay.
11
The writer is accusing men she doesn’t know of things they haven’t done.
29
It is not my duty or job to police the behavior of other people, neither men or women. I do not expect you to keep Hillary Clinton from being a war monger or Nancy Pelosi an elite financial criminal insider trading). So lectures of this type just will alienate people. We have laws, they just need to be enforced. This group think is dangerous, and PC has become like a mental illness in some places. Time to cool down, and realize that you are responsible for yourself and making changes in your self first.
19
I've never - in 70 years - treated any woman without complete respect and I resent any generalizations made about me or my behavior because of my sex.
26
Apparently now we have to ask if we can hold the door open, and whether she says yes or not, we're still wrong.
I am married to a very good man, whom I respect and love, and who has never abused or raped or sexually harassed ANY woman. And I can say the same about my sons, and my stepson as well. I also feel strongly that my oldest grandson, now a teenager, treats all women with respect and courtesy and if he DID NOT -- his dad and grandpa would smack him down and hard.
I've been sexually harassed at school and work -- a long while ago of course -- so I am not naive about the ways of the world.
But to blame EVERY MAN and imply EVERY MAN is guilty, and EVERY MAN has to apologize and undergo some kind of confession and "retraining" to be politically correct....that's just pure lefty liberal mumbo jumbo and hogwash.
3
Are you married to a woman?
Put your wife on the phone.
Wow, the comments from self-pitying men on Roxanne Gay's nice essay are quite telling. Either most women are big ol' liars, or sexual assaults are committed by maybe ten really, really busy men.
Come on guys. You examine your past behavior and become part of the solution, or you are part of the problem.
73
I can't believe how many people (men) on this page are responding with basically, "Not all men". You are part of the problem.
34
I'm a woman. It's not all men. I am not in denial, I am not part of the "problem."
31
"Not all men" gives all men cover. You cannot tell a good man from a harasser just by looking at him, or even sometimes by knowing him well. While you might feel blithely proud to take a contrary position like "not all men," that mentality can get another woman killed. All it takes is for society to look the other way, and that is what your comment is encouraging. You are giving abusers a place to hide. If you don't agree that that's part of the problem, then you don't understand the problem.
1
Saying "not all men" in response to sexual assault conversations is like saying "not all police" when someone tries to talk about police brutality. You are dismissing the problem, thereby allowing it to continue unchecked, and so, yes, you become PART OF IT. Gay never once said "All men do this." So why even bother to mention that all men don't?
3
Hard to take women seriously about sexual violence when 53% of white women voted for Trump. Make up your minds, it is either a major problem or simply akin to what should I wear tonight.
15
3 years ago a woman outside my apartment building was crying, screaming that she had been attacked. A guy had forcibly kissed her and was sneaking away. I caught the guy, and a group of men encircled him until the police arrived. We are complicit? Does the NY Times even care about the pain it inflicts with such a vile title?
12
Many of the comments here validate Gay's premise that men are going to remain at the root of the problem. If you are not part of the problem, then you need not get huffy. If you get huffy proclaiming you are not part of the problem because you have not witnessed it yourself, or done it yourself, or condoned it yourself, chances are good that you indeed are part of the problem.
40
"chances are good that you indeed are part of the problem"
And that's based on what evidence? I think the problem we have is we have become so divided an live in our own worlds so much that our prejudices are now considered a sound basis for opinions. It's certainly not just Trump supporters who are guilty of that.
Projection and denial. Why get all huffy if you are so sure you are not part of the problem? But you are right, we live in our own worlds, we can't see our role in other worlds, so we get huffy when there's any possibility we could be implicated. You put it perfectly.
There are a lot of defensive men here. Maybe they doth protest too much.
I think Quentin Tarantino's interview today in this paper is an example of what Roxane is getting at.
31
Oh good idea,
next time, instead of listening when someone disagrees with me, I'll just say " ... the lady doth protest too much." Great advice.
12
Lots of defensive men out there, aren't there?
60
so let's say an oped made broad sweeping generalizations about women. and many comments by women came in that disagreed. could I then say, "wow, lots of defensive women out there"?
2
When I am attacked, I defend.
1
Men are weak. The reason they don't carry children like women do is that they belly-ache too much, so that isn't good for the forlorn unborn. Males need to just take a subservient backseat for the next fifty years--let women be in charge, they are the majority anyway. I wouldn't have any complaints--women must know something about life--they certainly outlive all men. And for the men who don't like what I am writing, too bad--go whine somewhere else.
17
About #metoo, I think all of this stems from toxic masculinity. Boys are continuously taught from childhood on that showing their emotions is not ok, and are made feel like showing emotions is a sign of weakness, from family, their friends, and girls. So when kids, boys are mean to girls they like, because they don't know and are not taught how to express their emotions properly, and can't be vulnerable because being vulnerable is taboo. As teens, boys need to keep proving their masculine worth by saying a bunch of cuss-words and getting in fights. As adults, the behavior carries in catcalling and harassing women. Then when they have kids, they tell their boys to "be a man" and the cycle repeats. If we stopped having different standards for how boys and girls are allowed to communicate and emote, maybe there would be some progress.
16
But the Bible says "When I became a man, I put away childish things".
Some men apparently have yet to put away adolescence, it seems.
1
I don't think any of the harassment is justified, and I also don't think that expecting men to drop an upbringing of emotional suppression is realistic. I was bullied nearly every day growing up, and if I dared complaining about it then I was whiny and not a "real man". I've gone through intensive therapy to learn what actual healthy behavior looks like, and I never harassed anyone....however I can see why it happens. Addressing only the symptoms with a bunch of men blaming, without ever addressing the disease won;t fix anything. The disease is the emotional suppression and expectations of masculinity many men are subjected to.
"There is no escaping the inappropriate attentions and intentions of men."
Nice sweeping generalization. Nice angry screed too.
Back in the early '90's, I was a scientist at Big Biotech in the Bay Area/Silicon Valley (starts with the letter G). They hired an Asian woman as 'Director of Diversity'. She called all the male senior scientist types (no women, and there were many women scientists) into a room. She then spoke. 'You're probably wondering why you're all here. It is because each one of you is a potential sexual harasser.'
She was gone in 6 months. So much for sweeping generalizations.
24
The FIRST step is to not elect a sexual predator.
And we now have one as CIC.
How do we reach 62,979,636 people and convince them sexual harassment is NOT ok?
13
Here's my story. I'm a gay man who lived in (promiscuous) NYC during the 80s/90s and so had little connection to straight men who abused straight women. In the gay community, there was no real need for abuse for if one beautiful boy didn't want what you wanted there was always another beautiful boy around the corner who did.
Then, getting older and moving to CT I found that Mother Nature had more than sufficiently endowed the female of the species with her own feminine wiles to assert her own, special kind of power over men.
So call me a misogynist or evil or whatever other epithet you want to dismiss my experiences, but here goes.
Notwithstanding their awareness of my preferences, I had multiple encounters with women who figured that they could, nonetheless, convince me to hop in the sack with them. One, by showering me with attention that was not just subtle and seductive but, as I found out as the relationship developed, incredibly manipulative. Another used guilt as her primary weapon of achieving what she wanted. One more was not just actually physically aggressive but almost comical in the games that she played to achieve the goal that she sought.
So, sure, throw all the evil-doing men into prison but be aware that if our laws were more subtle in discerning psychological, social and psycho-sexual "rape" as they are in discerning physical rape, then there'd be a whole lot of women who would be joining the men in those prisons.
22
Oh Christ. Are you serious?
1
Did any of these women threaten your job, or make you feel afraid of them?
You missed the point of the article.
Oh and, how many of you women are standing up emphatically, loudly & clearly, condemning our own government, which does a charming little minuet with some of the most virulently misogynist institutions on the planet, the government of Saudi Arabia for starters.
13
Include that feminist icon Hillary Clinton, who "cares about women and children" but takes huge amounts of money from that "most virulently misogynist institutions on the planet, the government of Saudi Arabia" and other governments equally as bad. The woman then votes for wars whose main victims are, women and children. Displaced, maimed and killed.
That is just typical right wing diversion technique. But what about. Number one in the conservative playbook. What does Saudi Arabia have to do with sexual harassment in Hollywood or Peoria?
1
Fifty-two percent of white women voted for Donald Trump. They could have voted for a smart, experienced, capable woman who has never sexually assaulted anyone. Someone who would have done far more for women than Trump ever will. Instead they excused his sexist behavior because it just wasn't that important to them.
Roxanne, why don't you write about that?
Yes men need to change. But many women need to as well.
20
Thanks for endorsing Dr. Jill Stein, a fine example of a woman with integrity, who many men I know voted for in the POTUS election.
Violence and harassment against women is clearly a serious problem that both women and men ought to be talking about more deeply and the Weinstein case is certainly a worthy conversation starter.
However, this op-ed, with its accusatory headline and general lumping of almost all men into the categories of victimizer, enabler or denier, is unlikely to encourage the kinds of open, frank and productive conversations that need to take place between spouses, friends and co-workers of both sexes.
"When did you stop beating your wife?" has never been a question designed to get toward the truth.
19
Thanks! Well if stats say at least 25 % of women have been sexually assaulted (and 15% of men) then this latest media strorm is a necessary lancing of a deep cultural infection. Still, I feel if we want to really get at things, the role of social class in both perpetuating and exposing violence (not sure if I believe in a revolution starting from above, but this may be a different kind ), and the role of male silence (as victims, hypocrites and perpetuators) needs a look at. New role models, yes please.
7
While the article has many valid points, I do not thinking painting all men with one brush is fair, in fact it is sexist. I do not paint all women, African Americans, Asian Americans, or anyone else the same based on gender or race (at least I try the best I can). I think you can make your point that people should try to stand up to bad behavior-however, as in many things in life answers to such questions in the classroom are easier than real life-many of these people including the women victimized were afraid to speak up for fear of losing their jobs, their livelihood, their reputations. If it was easy we'd all (men and women) be doing it-the fact we aren't means it isn't easy. Most easy things aren't right, most difficult things are.....I suspect taking the extreme approach and suggesting all men "confess" to all the bad things they have done is not only unproductive but not going to solve the problem-the bad one's aren't going to repent. Please focus on bringing the people that care and want to help together. This article has the opposite effect.
10
This comment is not to downplay in any way the horrible behavior of many men in positions of power. Male dominance over women and the permission it gives many of them to treat women in abominable ways is nothing new. It has been denied and excused by men up to and including our current President. There is no excuse for it. But occasionally let it be said that not all men are like this, so that young women growing up don't have to be afraid of every male figure they encounter. It breaks my heart to think that a women might look at me without knowing me and think that I might be a potential abuser. We are not all like that. Women do have many supporters among those of the opposite gender, and I count myself and all of my male friends in that group.
6
Well said, except for, "But occasionally let it be said that not all men are like this, so that young women growing up don't have to be afraid of every male figure they encounter."
Because women do have to be afraid (or at least careful) of every male they encounter; we're taught that by the abuses of men who are apparently trusted by our social networks but who abuse us very early on in our lives.
This is the cost of harassment and assault to men, something that hasn't been reckoned with in this discussion. You might be one of those who doesn't harass, assault, rape. You may be one of the 'good ones.' But every encounter you have with women is shaded by the men who are not good, and those men have taught women to fear you, and you pay a price without every realizing it.
2
It's encouraging to see that the top comments to this article, at this time, reject the notion that all men are complicit in rape culture. I'm glad to see the acknowledgement that men can despise, and actively fight against, the epidemic of sexual abuse, while declining to accept responsibility for the horrible actions of others.
Personally, I'm quite fearful of the possibility of being accused of sexual harassment. With public shaming becoming widespread and organizations adopting more and more defensive HR policies, "he said / she said" situations can and do lead to men being punished without the burden of proof being met.
And let's not be coy - many people are happy to see this development. To them, setting precedents that make men feel powerless and afraid isn't a bug; it's a feature.
16
No, but I do admit to wishing men could at least try to imagine what it's like to feel powerless and afraid.
I agree that men should be responsible for policing each other and changing the culture of sexism, which is very real, and preventing sexual harassment and assault. However, I object to the notion — emphasized by some commenters who are perhaps going a little overboard with attempts at empathy — that all women are walking around in a constant state of fear, terrorized by the other half of the population. That’s simply not true for me or most women I know, and it’s not helpful to cast us all as perpetual victims.
10
I have never “cornered” a woman in a narrow office hallway or anywhere else. I have never refused to take no for an answer – the first time. I have never “guilted” a woman into sex. The last time I shared a lewd comment with a co-worker about a woman or tolerated one being offered in my presence without immediately shutting it down was well over thirty years ago – and I remain ashamed today of tolerating it when it was commonplace. On occasion, with women known to use sex for advancement, I have known not merely thought “a woman was asking for it”; but I never took the bait, nor ever generalized the behavior to all or even many women.
I’d honestly like to help Roxane believe that this dreadful state of affairs that has characterized male-female reality since our distant forebears swung out of the trees, began walking upright and started making serious nuisances of themselves could simply be wished away by the dream of some universal purging of guilty male thoughts and behavior in a massive Kumbaya moment embracing billions of men all over the world. But I can’t and it won’t. Not even close.
What we can do is teach our daughters to be strong and stand on their own feet, teach our sons that we will be dreadfully disappointed with them, even from the grave, if they ever veer from respecting women as complete equals or seek to prey on them, and strengthen laws and enforcement that protect women from predatory behavior by men.
So let’s focus like a laser on what CAN be done.
13
There are also false accusations as well.
25
While we are at it let us remember that while Harvey Weinstein is an ogre he has not been indicted much less convicted of anything.
If he is indeed indicted he is entitled to due process which means he will be able to see all evidence, confront his accusers and have a means of appeal. Furthermore, laws cannot be changed retroactively just to go after Harvey nor should they be stretched to their breaking point for that reason. We forbid bills of attainder.
Also, Woody Allen was right when he warned about a witch hunt. The real tragedy of Harvey will be to criminalize every interaction between men and women that does not always go smoothly.
1
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/the-number-of-male-domestic-128447977126... male victims of domestic abuse shockingly high. where is the NY Times article? How about rampant sexual discrimination in family courts?
18
"It’s time for men to start answering for themselves because women cannot possibly solve this problem they had no hand in creating."
There are a lot of "in-the-middle" cases that quite specifically do not fit the description, cases that quite often can be classified after the fact as harrassment.
LIke when you declare your interest to a woman (over whom you have no explicit power) when you finally get a moment with her alone. If she says "no, sorry, not interested," and you leave her alone after that, that's not harrassment. But it can be so classified.
Or, if you have entirely enthusiastic consensual sex, and she decides later that she regrets it, that's not rape. But it can be so classified.
Yes, there's a problem, and it's real. Very real. But it risks being overcooked by overclassifying all behaviors as misbehaviors.
19
"Or, if you have entirely enthusiastic consensual sex, and she decides later that she regrets it, that's not rape. But it can be so classified."
Really? Is that law? You state these questionable things with the confidence of someone who is generally respected and believed. I'm guessing you haven't had your dignity assaulted in one way or another on almost every day of your life and career. This whole discussion must feel like a complete waste of your valuable time.
11
I work on a college campus. I inherited a male employee who had been shuffled around the university to various departments. There were rumors that he had sexually harassed students. Several female colleagues told me their stories of improper touching and comments and inappropriate remarks, but they feared going to HR. I was told never to be in a room alone with this man - who now reported to me. His behavior was common knowledge, but was never documented. I will never understand why. Eventually, I was able to eliminate his position and restructure the department, but it still ticks me off that this behavior was tolerated for so long. There are Weinsteins all around us.
35
Did you "eliminate his position" with direct proof that he was guilty, or based on the word of others. And why did the women fear going to HR?
The company I work for is sending out notices against sexual harassment every few months, as if it was the most important issue they deal with, rather than the exploitation of their workers with the lowest possible state allowed minimum wages. In my now almost 4 years there, I have never once seen an instance close to sexual harassment on the job. It probably occurs, but I guess all those notices are working.
1
Did you ever actually witness it? Or did you even have a formal complaint of it reported to you? As you fail to mention either of these, I assume not. Basically, you fired someone from their job because of rumors.
1
I am proud to uphold the women in my life with dignity and respect, and I feel attacked if others label me as complicit in rape culture (and I choose not to take on that label).
Are you making allies with this article, or turning potential allies off through blanket judgments?
35
The majority of men I know socially or through work, do not fit the broad brush, stereotype that Roxane paints. To me it is akin to stating, "You know all woman are so overly emotional, dramatic, and catty, how can you possibly deal with them?" That just isn't the truth and the concept that all men are in some fashion predatory towards women is false.
Back in the early 90's I worked at a small consultancy of about 50 people. During my three years there we had three incidents of sexual harassment. Two were males, who, once the incidents were reported, investigated and verified, they were immediately fired. The third perpetrator was a woman. She tried to sexualize every conversation and would tell us stories of her personal life that were beyond work place appropriate.
Individually, all of us in our department, men and women went to speak with our boss and he basically told us "Well, we understand your concerns but we like the job that she does here, so you just have to learn to adjust to her."
I never could and within a year of that meeting I was able to leave. I thought to myself "Surely she won't last another year, with all the chaos she is creating." I was right she didn't last a year, she lasted 10 years, until finally someone in management finally got fed up.
Women don't often get called out for their predatory or inappropriate behavior. If they do there often are no consequences.
16
You’re right—however, women rarely are the perpetrators.
6
The responses to this column are telling! Many people object to Dr. Gay saying that all men need to speak up and stop sexual harassment. If you do not sexually harass women, great! If you are not in environments in which women are harassed, even better. The second scenario seems unlikely given the prevalence of sexual harassment. So what is the problem with asking men to stop sexual harassment when they vicariously witness it?
34
This attitude privileges male conduct over female conduct in not calling out as important women’s responsibility to speak out.
2
The objection is that most men are not sexual predators. For every bad guy, there is a woman who likes attention and validation. Be real about this. Both sides have growing up to do. The narrative that men are bad and women are victims may be in fashion, but that is not the whole truth.
9
my favorite is the guy who, in his 58 years, "has never witnessed sexual harassment".
Naturally, rather than ask himself if maybe he doesn't actually know what he should have been looking for, he instead concludes it doesn't exist (and, # "notallmen".)
If that isn't a classic male response, I don't know what is....
1
Who wants to have bad sex? Raise your hand. Not me. I've learned to keep my jeans zipped, until the women with me undoes my belt, and.....
This is not an unrealistic scenario. Women like sex too, but on their own terms.
6
Rape culture is a myth. It is a sad truth that there is a large number of women that are assaulted and harrassed (by a smaller number of repeat/recidivist perpetrators). However, a concept like "rape culture" would suggest that rape is condoned by the public at large. Rape is recognized as being among the most heinous of crimes. An accusation of rape is often enough to destroy the accused socially. Convicted rapists often need to be segregated from the general prison population because even criminals hate rapists. There is a separate registry in most states for sex offenders. None of these facts suggest a "rape culture" in America. Harvey Weinstein's position of power protected him, not any kind of mythical rape culture.
23
It’s not mythical. Read some of these comments suggesting that how a woman dresses or talks opens her up to unwelcome attention. THAT is rape culture.
14
0.6% of rapes result in a criminal conviction, according to RAINN. 6 of 1000. That’s not a success story.
Spurn vulgarity, violence and hedonism in mainstream entertainment. It only takes us all down. Stop normalizing and celebrating debauchery. It's unrealistic to expect every male will be a gentleman and every female a lady, but that should be our goal. Re-establish norms that used to guide boys and girls toward civilized behavior. Yes I know this isn't fashionable today, but thoughtful precautions and strategies work in many aspects of life, why not in this?
5
Excellent piece. Id like to note the parallel story of men and violence. Men are responsible for war, shooting, fighting, beatings, etc. but does anyone ever say that? I cringe when people say human beings are violent; no, it's not human beings per se, but men. I dont know how we change this - but we should at least raise the issue. I also would suggest reading Charlotte Perkins Gilman 1915 utopian novel called Herland to get a sense of how we could have a peaceful world - free of violence, rape, aggression, etc.
22
Thank you, bana.
A line I recall from the writing of a (male) author whose name I do not recall went something like this: "In all times and in all places human-on-human violence is almost exclusively the province of males."
And yet even in the most serious discussion of violence in general (e.g., Pinker's 2011 book), it is inevitably treated as a problem of "human" nature.
13
Statistics tell a different story. There are as many men who are sufferers of domestic abuse as there are women. Don't take my word for it...look it up.
7
Here is another way of looking at it. Most people only project qualities onto other people that they don't feel in themselves. For instance, traditionally men were the workers and protectors, and women were nurturers who were valued for their beauty. Beauty is still a strong self-value for many women, and many men still project beauty onto women, not seeing it in themselves. To feel beautiful, a person first has to be in touch with their body, in a healthy, self-respecting way. Most typical male experiences do not cultivate this feeling of self-respect and beauty. This is why men still project sex and beauty into women. Additionally, most women, even today, consider sensuality and beauty to be their place in relationship with men. Even modern women like to be adored. If women and men in our culture learned to appreciate the embodied beauty of men, men would value themselves more, and not need to chase women. For those of you scoffing, women demand respect for their bodies, enjoy feeling beautiful, but only respect men for their strength. Add to this circumcision, which probably causes boys to disssiciate fro their sexuality and body in general, and you have men who have no relationship with their own sexuality, unless they are chasing a woman. Value men enough that they will value themselves. Consider it.
1
Wow guys ( and I do mean the men responding). It's not that all men are predators or evil, but that they all have a responsibility to be aware of their actions and responses and speak up when they hear or see bad behavior-from language to action. Just stop and imagine what it is like to grow up female and never truly feel safe, no matter what steps you take. Just imagine. Now respond.
50
Thank you
A previous commenter really boiled it down for me:
"Dear Roxanne Gay: I am already totally on your side. There's no value in going around accusing people you don't know of unspecified sins."
I work at a complex institution and I've had multiple opportunities to fight against sexual assault. I'm confident I've done more on this issue at my employer than Roxanne Gay has done, or ever will do, at her employer.
Yet, I read her piece very carefully, and there's no place for me in it. In fact, it's worse than that. This editorial is part of a larger pattern in some progressive quarters where, as an article of faith, one must believe we are starting from zero.
I didn't vote for Trump and have always done what I could to stand up for others and speak up for the marginalized. But I'm pretty sure we have seven more years of Trump to look forward to, and progressives who turn on each other are a big part of the problem.
Physician, heal thyself.
34
Amen. There are plenty of lefties among us who are brave enough to speak out (as long as they are sure the people they are yelling at won’t punch them in the mouth.)
3
If you are already on her side, why do you feel as if she's accusing you? When she says "men," why are you reading "All men" or "Every single man"?
If I say, "Teachers / Police officers / Postal workers / politicians have to stand up for X," am I saying that none of them already do? No, I'm saying they all need to do it. That's all. Simple.
2
Because this is her recommendation to men:
"Men can start putting in some of the work women have long done in offering testimony. They can come forward and say “me too” while sharing how they have hurt women in ways great and small. They can testify about how they have cornered women in narrow office hallways or made lewd comments to co-workers or refused to take no for an answer or worn a woman down by guilting her into sex and on and on and on. It would equally be a balm if men spoke up about the times when they witnessed violence or harassment and looked the other way or laughed it off or secretly thought a woman was asking for it."
To paraphrase the twitterverse in the wake of Harvey Weintstein, don't hold a reader accountable for a writer's actions.
I've often thought about the worst aspects of being a woman - childbirth pain, menses every month for 40+ years, being a woman over 60 and no Title IV to offer me a place on Little League, job discrimination. But the absolute worst part of being a woman is the male attention which attempts to objectify me each and every day since the age of 11. No matter what I wear, covered head to toe in a down coat and sloppy boots - It is ongoing and continuous, Not fun and not funny.
43
Do you assume that all women feel the same way that you do?
4
As a 61 year old grandmother...RSP, I have to take my hat off to you. I am pretty much invisible in life for the last 10-15 years. Nobody sexually harasses grandmas IMHO.
That at 60+ you are getting so much male attention that "you just can't stand it because it objectifies you!" amazes me. All my 60+ friends complain they cannot GET male attention even when they want it -- try to get it -- try to date -- dress attractively and flirt on purpose. Men who are 60+ often imagine they can get much younger partners. And the ratio of men to women is skewed in favor of men -- they are the minority, hence they get to choose.
As far as childbirth pain....are you blaming men for that? Shouldn't you be blaming Mother Nature? Or for "40 years of menses"? you do realize that A. nobody compels you to give birth and B. there are treatments for both menstrual pain and labor pain that are very effective.
As far as Little League ... I never was much into organized sports, but I remember playing lots of softball as a kid, with both girls and on mixed teams, and I don't remember it being an "issue" that required "Title 9" to resolve.
1
you're male.
This is going to seem trite but I think it is important. Did you know many men name their members? It's because we have experienced situations where the little guy seems to have a mind of its own.
Growing up I was embarrassed by uncontrollable erections. Sitting in grade school, maybe daydreaming, then being called to the chalkboard and realizing that the tight jeans of the 60's were not good at hiding my, em, alertness. I think most men have in their youth been shamed by this thing beyond our control.
But, we exist today partly because men (at least the young ones)can start a baby anywhere, anytime, many times more than they could raise the resulting offspring. For the human race up till about now, reproduction had to be THE driving force if your genes were to survive. Gene-wise, the most successful men were those who through some combination of strength and cunning, impregnated the most women. From this standpoint, successful women were those who could insure that baby would have babies of it's own. That could have meant tolerating some abuse from the goon that knocked her up, instead of being alone, and especially if that goon commanded fear and respect from his cohorts. The combination of behaviors -success at domination on the male genome, and tolerance traded for protection on the female - might be passed genetically, and culturally reinforced, to get us where we are today. Culture changes faster than genome, and ours is changing very quickly today.
8
There are so many assumptions regarding the origin of our species in this post that one must ask if the commenter has read anything since Darwin on the issue?
1
Where are you “starting” these babies? Evo Psych is nonsense and you should possess more self-restraint than an adequately trained housepet.
I lean left and I detest Trump. But I also feel pretty sure he'll get elected again in 2020 as long as stuff like this gets published in the mainstream media. The article itself is bad, and contributes to our broken society.
50
Steve nailed it.
8
Another supposed Trump denier who speaks and thinks just like him. Guess what? Predicting his re-election means you’re going to vote for him. See how that works genius? Yeesh. Dumb is so unappealing.
1
Women who have or could write #metoo: I believe you, but you have to believe me that it is possible to be a man and have never harrassed nor forced myself on a woman. Nor have I seen this kind of behavior and turned away. Maybe I hang around the wrong crowd, am in the wrong business, or don't understand that kind of power, but I resent the implication that this is an everyone thing.
12
I see no reason to disbelieve you, although I don't know you. Most of the men I know well -- family, friends, co-workers -- are not guilty of any active malfeasance. At the same time, most, if not all, the women have experienced harassment or worse. This suggests that the guilty men are multiple offenders and I think that's very likely the case. But I also believe that those who turn a blind eye should take this opportunity to recognize the problem when they see it and to speak up. Silence may be complicity, particularly when the problem has been so widely revealed.
9
But she's not saying we men all act 'that' way. IMHO she's saying we ought to all speak out against such male behavior when and as appropriate. Preferably without having to be hit over the head with it, as here.
15
I understand that many men cannot see it and cannot understand it. We protect the ones we love, and as such, I and many women, have protected their fathers, brothers, husbands, and their lovers from the unsavory details of what it means to be a woman. The sensation of sexual abuse is piercing and numbing and I don’t expect many men to ever comprehend the depth of that sensation. Rather, we ask all men to not disavow it. We as women tuck these repeated sensations away and are urged to treat these instances as ‘just a part of the experience of being a woman’. We are touched by the poisons power, sexism, and misogyny, and then told we are not, because despite what you may believe you think, men think women do not matter. It’s hard to pinpoint when I was taught to choke these sensations down. Maybe it was when I was in fourth grade, when a boy harassed me with notes detailing his graphic sexual dreams about me. Maybe it was when I was roofied in London by men looking for easy sex, incapacitated after one drink, waking up alone, violently ill and filled with terror. The cold of my keys between my fingers when I walk home alone at night, an unwanted hand from a stranger touching my bum on the subway, the cat-call when I simply walk to work, the painful grab of my wrist from an angry boyfriend, are sensations a woman cannot dull, that are caused solely by the actions of men. All men are accountable, because women did not create these sensations, all men did.
105
Such a well written comment ruined by the last sentence.
No, NOT "all" men have, even if far too many who did were men. And we're not all accountable because of what someone else has done, but because we're human. It's wrong for men to look away, but why should they look at something that falsely (if only carelessly) says "all men did."
7
Understand, that it comes from a place of great privilege to be able to overlook the systemic, historied, and normalizated practice of treating women as objects. A practice created, maintained and perpetuated through by whom and whom alone? Men. The basic experience of any woman's life is one of which I don't expect you digest with the ease in which you cried "NOT ALL MEN!" Chiefly, it's because you as part of the greater male species aren't objectified in all of your pursuits. Whether it's simply walking to a store, or presenting a nuanced report to your supervisor, consulting
the Rolodex of abuse and objectification they have endured from puberty forward, women must go into every situation ready to brace themselves or "deal with it" because the male-designed system has made it that way. Sure, the "not all men" retort you grasped at is true to an extent: I know many men who do not actively perpetuate abuse, misogyny, or sexual misconduct, but they also do nothing to actively stop it from happening to virtually every woman. Men created the system; hold yourself accountable and work towards dismantling it by demanding that same accountability across the brotherhood. We can't be expected to work/be mothers/subscribe to the doctrine of domesticity/be sexualized objects AND solve a problem men created and perpetuated. It starts with your acknowledgement.
1
ALL men did not do that to you. SOME men did that to you. Most men never looked at you sideways, or had the slightest interest in you.
It might be that you have these paranoid feelings because you were raped (being "roofied" is rape) so I understand why you are sensitive -- but STILL you cannot simply accuse half the human race of being "out to get you".
To all of these commenters confident that they have never contributed to the problem - why is your first response to these endless stories of harassment and violence not, “How can I help?” but instead, “This isn’t about me.” Think about what that means, that the systemic subjugation of women and the story of one woman’s exhaustion from dealing with the stream of shared trauma from the other women around her elicit in you not compassion, but self-indignation. When you hear about institutionalized injustice, you are motivated not to lend a hand or speak up for victims, but to state your own blamelessness. Is that really the person you want to be? Is that a person you want to know?
93
Re "... why is your first response ... not 'How can I help?' but instead, 'This isn't about me.'"
Could it be because in her concluding paragraph, Gray advises men to, "come forward and say 'me too' while sharing how they have hurt women in ways great and small. They can testify about how they have cornered women in narrow office hallways or made lewd comments to co-workers or refused to take no for an answer or worn a woman down by guilting her into sex and on and on and on"?
Unless one supposes that every man engages in the behavior she describes—I feel confident that I have not, ever—then responding "it's not me" is simply answering the writer's query.
I strongly believe that men should stand up and speak out against all forms of sexual harassment and assault, up to and including unsavory "jokes" among friends, even when it's uncomfortable.
But like many other commenters, I not only have not done these things, but do not witness this kind of behavior.
I would submit that virtually all men (and women? I can't say) have frequent sexual thoughts when they see a woman (or man) they find sexually alluring—as brain science tells us; I certainly do. The difference lies between those who feel entitled to act in some way upon their testosterone-fueled thoughts, and those who are civilized to refrain.
I highly recommend the classic 2002 "This American Life" interview with Griffin Hansbury, a female-to-male trans man, regarding
Because we are good men, and you are not including that in your side of the conversation.
It's because we feel attacked. The part of the brain dedicated to fight or flight, when it senses attack, instinctually deflects or return a blow.
I feel it right now: I resent being labeled as complicit in rape culture (I'm cognitively defending myself against the allegation).
Do you know how Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. built his movement? By expressing his vision and values. He built allies and inspired to a higher calling. He didn't cast wide nets of guilt on other in an attempt to coerce good behavior.
What a great idea! While we are at it, perhaps we could take note of the steady stream of female child rapists turning up in our school systems ( www.crimeonline.com/category/teacher-scandals ) and from there, infer that all women are child rapists. Perhaps Ms. Gay would like to demonstrate the wisdom of her advice by adding her "me too" to that proposition.
No? Not fair? Okay, maybe promoting bigotry and collective identity guilt and shaming is not such great idea after all.
This is the same sort of thing Trump does to target Mexicans and Muslims as individuals to be scapegoated, blamed, and stigmatized. It is disgraceful to write this sort of fear mongering screed and no less so for The Times to keep publishing articles of this sort.
Men commit sex crimes and injustices against opposite and same sex people, but women do the same. (Look it up if you are inclined to argue with that statement.) That does not mean all, or even most, men and women are sex abusers. Suggesting otherwise just creates another class of victims, which gives cover to the dangerous offenders among us.
17
Maybe read SLM's comment above. Instead of seeing the injustice of which the author speaks and asking how you can help, you try to change the subject. Your comment makes me think that you are not an ally to women.
6
My point was there is an inherent injustice in the gender discrimination driving most of the calls to action. A fair investigation of violence, sexual manipulation, and rape between men and women will reveal that both men and women victimize and are victimized by one another in substantial numbers. I am not an ally of injustice and bigotry, regardless of which group is being diminished and put at risk by it.
As for being an ally of women (or men, or various dimensions of fluidity along the spectrum), it would never occur to me to divide the world that way and take sides. From earliest childhood, I have had close, lasting friendships with females and most of the time I spend in meaningful, personal conversations has been in the company of my female friends, with or without males present. And yet, I am a man and I hang out with men, too. I see in some the ugly attitudes that seem positively anachronistic when it comes to inter-gender relations, and I am grateful that most of my male friends are more aware and comfortably androgynous than that
I guess if I am an "ally" of any part of common gender dynamics, it is for the people who know you are better off not sexualizing most of your relationships, that there are many degrees of intimacy to be had regardless of gender, and that projecting and anticipating gender stereotypes limits the best possibilities and cultivates the worst. By perpetuating the myth that only males are sexual offenders, the article was offensive to me.
1
This, in essence, is a conversation about responsibility. There are claims made that men have a responsibility to eliminate sexual intimidation & violence even if we believe that we are not the immediate cause and even if it is not our behavior that we are witnessing. I would say that this is an EXCELLENT recommendation/expectation with one caveat. Those who shield the innocent from intimidation and violence are what are commonly known as heroes. You can try to find justice by shaming all those who don't sacrifice themselves for others or write, instead, about heroes who have. I wonder which would accomplish a just society faster?
4
It's funny that some of the comments made by men exemplify what the author writes about as far as "boys will be boys." The "not me, don't lump me in with those bad men."
There's a big part for men when the author writes, "They can come forward and say 'me too' while sharing how they have hurt women in ways great and small"
That's an out. It's giving men permission to admit what they've done to women to speak about it. Men can start to understand the scope of the problem faced by women in accepting the roles they've played in the violence. My biggest regret is how I sometimes (even with my own) minimize women's tales (there it goes) of sexual assault. I try to explain it away in my own mind when it comes to their experiences and my own.
9
The author writes convincingly and apparently from knowledge and experience. I would like to add that my experience has made me aware that predators come in many forms, and often seek to disguise their sexual misconduct before, after and during their encounters. If confronted or otherwise exposed by their victims, or the victim's friends or loved ones, they will use all meas at their disposal to discredit their victims. The predator's circle of friends and loved ones will often engage in long lasting and damaging behavior to discredit the victim. The social and emotional costs are real to all parties and can last decades in a community. There are no easy solutions from what I have witnessed, unless the predator truly seeks help, which does not appear to happen very frequently despite the threat of severe penalties. Everybody needs to start putting in honest work on this problem.
9
Thank you Jim
I’m a retired male in my mid-sixties. One of my defining traits is that I am very approachable. People share things with me, whether they be friends, co-worker or students. Personal, important things. Since my college days and continuing to this day (in Harvey Weinstein discussions), I continue to have women sharing their personal rape stories with me. These are not stories about someone else they knew. These are the “I was raped” acknowledgements. In my mid-thirties I remember standing up in the large building that was my largely male workplace and finally admitting to myself how many rapists must be around me. If such a large percentage of the women I knew personally had been raped, then it must follow that at least a similar percentage of males I knew must be rapists. I still remember the feeling of shame I felt at that time about being a male.
From personal experience I believe that we all personally know many women who have been raped. If, as I male, you don’t know which women in your life’s circles have been raped then it is mostly because they do not feel safe sharing that with you. From reading many of the comments to this article I can understand why they wouldn’t feel safe sharing that information with a man.
82
I agree with much of what you have said, except for your statement that "if such a large percentage of the women [you] knew personally had been raped, then it must follow that at least a similar percentage of males [you] knew must be rapists". It doesn't follow because it's apparently more likely the case that a smaller percentage are serial abusers. (I'm female, also retired, older than you. Like virtually all women, I've been hassled. I've never been raped, or anything close to it. And most of the men I know well have never shown any sign that they would treat women in a physically abusive manner.) I'm glad this issue has surfaced and hope it will cause all of us, male and female, not to remain complicit when we become aware of inappropriate behavior.
6
You certainly make a good point. The other part that concerns me thought is that I'm only counting those women that have chosen to share their rape acknowledgments with me. There are certainly more women that I know who have been raped and never shared that with me. I still tend to believe that a significant percent of men are rapists. As a male, I am also concerned that many men are unable to admit to themselves that their actions are sexual abuse or rape. To many it is just part of the way sexual relationships are. I still tend to believe that rape is prevalent and is deeply ingrained in the male culture. To conclude it is due to a small group of serial abusers is to minimize the true magnitude of the problem.
1
OK, #Metoo. Back in the late 1960s when I was a young assistant professor at Duke University and my wife was a graduate student in their social psychology program, a famous professor made a concerted effort to seduce her. And, to pave the way, he worked successfully to terminate my position. He managed to be the head of my three-person interim review committee and had another faculty member who was opposed to me added to it. While I became aware of what was happening (since the third member, a former Israeli freedom fighter, was appalled at what was happening and tried to be m,y advocate). Nevertheless, I was terminated after only two years--an unheard of situation in academia as I later learned. Fortunately, both I and my wife escaped this professors clutches and went on to have very successful academic careers and recently celebrated our 50th anniversary. But, the experience taught us that we must speak out about sexual harassment which we did numerous times, often successfully, during our careers.
40
As a man who has nothing to feel ashamed of with regard to how women feel they are being treated by men, I’m more than happy to watch both sides in this fight it out. I’m so tired of only Trump and politics. It’s a welcome distraction.
5
This is how you trivialize violence and assault against women as if it were a TV show that you can watch For Your Entertainment. This is the same mentality that put this person in the White House in 2016. I don't know how you can stand yourself.
3
Ok, I understand this article is hard for men to read. But before you get too upset, try asking your mother/sisters/daughter/wives/female friends what their experiences have been with sexual violence and harassment. I defy you to find a woman who doesn't have some terrible story to tell. All this time, they've been keeping quiet. Ask them, and listen.
38
I never like Ms. Gay's articles about race, but this one on sexual harassment is excellent because she includes all women and men, regardless of race. In her articles about race she does not acknowledge many whites do not tolerate discrimination and fight for minority rights. Yes, some women need to stop making excuses and men who are not sexual harassers need to speak up instead of looking the other way or laughing it off. Women and men who engage in this behavior encourage sexual harassment. They need to protect the rights of those harassed to live freely in a free society.
1
Ms. Gay,
It is unfortunate you let your anger and frustration bleed out into your piece. Men who practice this type of behavior will probably not be much affected, though some good men may be repulsed by your inclusive accusation of, "Dear men: It's you, Too." We need all good people to work together on this problem. Some good men will do it by continuing to practice a humble respect for women and call out men when they see this type of behavior. I hope good men will forgive your angry accusation and think more to the point you make asking men to call out other men when they see it themselves.
11
Joe—the point is that men who are offended by women who are fed up with being manhandled, molested, harassed, etc aren’t really MEN at all. Seriously!
8
Forgive her anger? I won't speak for all women but my anger is hers and many peoples and she is speaking "Truth to Power" and I support her any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Can't you see a reason for our anger? I have experienced what she writes about. I have experienced somebody taking complete control of my body, freedom and autonomy. Have you?
3
I agree with this article, but it does not go far enough. Sexual harassment and assault are just side products of the perpetual pan-cultural system of degradation and oppression of women. The double standards, the jokey excuses, the glass ceilings, the religious regulations and constant backlash against feminism are just some of the tools used to maintain a crude male superiority that is toxic in every human endeavor. This basic humiliation of half the population is sociopathic and has become a normative created by men. I would argue that sexism is the root of racism as it is necessary it define a superior "us" and and inferior "them." To claim women's complicity in any way is ridiculous, analogous to claiming slaves are somehow to blame for their plight. A completely new model of awareness is required to end this destructive tyranny. Dear Men: It's you.
22
The moral relativism that posits that Hillary is worse than Trump...
But hey, women in Saudi Arabia just got the right to drive...right after cars got the right to drive themselves.
7
Whether we feel better calling it "power" or "sex", we need to accept that there is a biology behind these behaviors. Domination and sexual access to females are what it's all about, in terms of male evolutionary success.
I am not saying that people should behave this way in 2017. Core to civilization is overcoming biology. But sometimes we need to acknowledge instinct and biology in order to transcend the same.
Simply condemning is about as effective as Catholic prohibitions have been in preventing teen pregnancy.
We need to understand that these behaviors are natural. Only then, can we choose to overcome our nature.
6
Actually this is a very salient point. Unfortunately, much of the current academic rhetoric regarding this subject has been produced in the humanities. In regards to sexual harassment, these fields have created unproven and highly publicized theories held as dogma by some not proven by the scientific method or based hypothetically on comparative studies; e.g. The concept rape is purely violence and not sexually driven. Rape and sexual harrassment are sickening parts of our evolutionary background, and they must be researched accordingly.
I am fortunate as an Undergraduate to take a course by an Evolutionary biologist regarding human sexuality. It changed my life, for the better I will add. More importantly, it made me realize any solution to these problems must acknowledge the actual human tendency to do this.
3
these aren't black and white issues. human behavior is complicated. not all men are complicit, not all women are victims. these sweeping generalizations are not productive.
7
I have NEVER done ANY of those things to ANY women nor do I actually know any man who has (not that they haven't). I have met abused women though and I know of the pervasive evil in the world and the toll.
But I have been assaulted, battered and bullied by men and know enough to keep safe. Women would be well advised to do the same. The issue is that most of the evil done in the world is done by men not women or most men for that matter.
I am not an abuser or a rapist and I do NOT bear responsibility for those who are - we are ALL trapped in this cycle of violence and fear and it will not end anytime soon!
3
"women cannot possibly solve this problem they had no hand in creating"
Why not? Let's accept the author's assertions about how bad American men are. One of the great things about the U.S. compared to other societies is the lack of rules. A woman can spend her entire life in the U.S. and barely associate with men. There are all-female schools. There are all-female work environments (try the Labor and Delivery department of any hospital! She can also start her own company and hire exclusively women). There are all-female dating environments. There are sperm banks if she wants to reproduce without encountering a man.
(If she insists on dating a man, there are Airbus A380 aircraft that will take her, at a very reasonable price, over the ocean to a more enlightened country where men treat women better.)
An intelligent adult with agency wouldn't go into a dangerous neighborhood unless it were absolutely necessary, right? The author says that any neighborhood with men is dangerous for women. Why do women need to go into these neighborhoods?
3
I live in a beautiful city in an upper middle class enclave and have had men gawk, comment and offer unsolicited attention. It doesn’t matter where we go—& honestly, we women should be able to live as freely as men.
15
Yes, every neighborhood with men in it is dangerous for women. Every one.
Roxane Gay, after suffering a horrendous gang rape as a girl, didn't even tell her parents, let alone go to the police. Maybe that can be explained by her youth at the time. But Rose McGowan was a full-grown woman when she accepted a monetary settlement - with a non-disclosure clause - rather than press charges. If I understand correctly, many of Weinstein's "procurers" were female assistants. So, maybe it's not only men who need to do more to put an end to such behavior?
16
The writer's view on men is not dissimilar to that of many women who voted for Trump. Certainly, they didn't approve of his reported behavior, but they reasoned that that was what men are like. When you got down to it, men are all pretty much animals and would do all that stuff Trump did if they could get away with it, these women figured. And what about Bill Clinton? He was just as bad, wasn't he? They're all like that, except for the ones...well, you know.
1
"They can testify about how they have cornered women in narrow office hallways or made lewd comments to co-workers or refused to take no for an answer or worn a woman down by guilting her into sex and on and on and on. It would equally be a balm if men spoke up about the times when they witnessed violence or harassment and looked the other way or laughed it off or secretly thought a woman was asking for it."
Yep, that's how I spend my day.
Honestly, is there anybody out there?
6
A professor who lectures without defining terms and context is ranting, not writing. So a noble cause is spoiled. Conflating Weinstein with daily life is preposterous; this is about the entertainment industry, where tyrants reign over a few job-hunters. The Casting Couch has been a cliché for the past 100 years, and everybody knows it. Also, define "rape culture" before you throw it around. I just saw a clip of a 16-year-old Romeo who, after dating his 14-year-old Juliette, faces lifetime in jail for "rape" and a slot on the Sex-Offender List. Rape Culture? Haw.
9
“So a noble cause is spoiled”.
Haw indeed.
2
You fellas plead ignorance so how can so many women experience this? How? I never think about it because I am from the older generations but I remember the molestations and married men after me way back when. They were your neighbors, your brothers, cousins. They didn’t brag like Trump and I absolutely never told anyone. Ever. This isn’t a witch hunt.
14
Gay and others like her think every man has a moral obligation to take up the cause and end all forms of harassment and abuse perpetrated by men against women.
Men have no more of a moral obligation to do so than to take up the cause of any other social ill. Today its women. Two weeks ago it was guns. Two years ago it was Black Lives Matter. At all times its Trump. If the week is slow its climate change.
To achieve a desired change, the burden falls upon the parties seeking change. Enough with the finger pointing and browbeating--go accomplish something yourself.
11
Yes they have a moral obligation if they claim to be moral.
9
Wow! It is evident that the problem is not only the sexual harassment coming from a big chunk of the male population. The problem is the grave state of denial of another probably much bigger chunk of the male population (and quite a few females too).
Not all white men are being blamed for the mistreatment of African Americans and women. They are beginning to be held accountable for looking the other way, for pretending it is a problem that does not exist, and for blaming the victims.
So, we do not have ONE problem (sexual harassment); we actually have TWO (sexual harassment AND a collective state of denial of it).
28
Your comment reminds me of the end of 1984, where Winston is made to admit all the crimes he has commited. You state essentially that not all men are sexual harassers, then in the same breath that a majority of us look the other way. I get the impression that somehow, in some form or fashion, nearly every male is guilty in your eyes. Listen, no one is saying sexual harrassment does not happen. There is no overwhelming "collective denial". What there is though, by a strong segment of the population both male and female, a call to hold your horses and look at this critically. What Weinstein did was sickening, but he was one male in a country of 320 million people. Do you really believe nearly every single man in your life (Father, brother, friend, Uncle, etc) is guilty of a crime?
On a separate note, to most independent and conservative voters this is the type of talk that makes it appear the progressive movement has went off the deep end. It is so seeped in simmering disdain for people based on their genitalia, that honestly it is hard to appeal to large segments of the population with this type of rhetoric. I despise Trump, but if conversations regarding sexual harrassment devolve into arguments regarding "a collective state of denial" Trump will win 2020s
1
The real problem is that all men are bad. It's not just a few of them, it's all of them.
Society used to have institutions and customs to deal with this. We have chosen to abandon them, and this is what we have got.
There are two choices: go back to some version of a traditional society where restraint is enforced, or have what we have now. Human nature is not going to change any time soon.
8
"...go back to some version of a traditional society where restraint is enforced"? Which was...when..?
This us the first time I have ever sent a comment and it is just to profoundly say THANK YOU.
49
As a mother of both a young man and young woman I constantly make lists of safety tips for them to follow. Be wise Be careful . Now I realize my list continues as the horrors of the world grow with #metoo lists. There is no manual for dealing with this . Be careful Be careful? Be Brave. Do not Be Afraid.
Wait you expect MEN to not be pigs? As if.
The solution, date transgender men or any kind of woman. Thats what I do and it works out great. Transmen know how to treat a lady and actually care that you have a good time. Other women will give you the best sex you have ever had. Just do it and leave cishet men to their computer screens and video games.
11
Bull
I detest bullies of all types of all sexes of all cults of all frauds.
10
Rape culture? My god, who came up with that kneejerk, over-the-top, PC term? What is that even trying to suggest….that we live in a culture where many people (i.e., men) ‘promote’ rape? ‘Teach’ rape? Or that rape is considered a healthy part of American culture, much like apple pie and baseball?
And the whole #MeToo campaign? Was it really about trying to show how common sexual harassment (of women) is, and if so, who defines what sexual harassment is? According to some accounts that I actually saw on social media, telling a women she ‘looks great’ after returning to work from maternity leave can be considered ‘inappropriate’. You gotta love it…only in the everything-is-a-potential-lawsuit-or-potential-slight US of A, would this be considered borderline sexual harassment.
I think for the most part, the whole #MeToo thing is yet another example of dumb, sheep-like behaviors so ubiquitous now on social media. Gals can feel all ‘sisterly’ with other women online. They can feel ‘politically motivated’…get lots of Likes. Female bonding. Etc.
Society is just getting dumber and dumber, and nowhere is this more evident than on social media. No one can think for themselves, everyone has a pack mentality, everyone wants Likes, everyone is Reactionary, and anything that does not fall perfectly within PC guidelines has the potential for immediate annihilation and banishment from social media.
72
you're my hero
3
Well this comment would certainly qualify as reactionary.
1
You are the prime example of society getting dumber and dumber. If you can't understand what rape culture is or anything else this article addressed you are absolutely hopeless. I can't believe a woman was so misogynistic as to actually write this.
So I can't say that I read the while article - I rarely do. But I think I have a responsibility as a father and friend to call out misogyny - it's not hard. As a guy I've never thought that anyone should assault or intimidate another person. it's especially easy at work.. just to focus on work. When I give a compliment I focus on the work and not the person. Locker talk and other ridiculous things we say to justify in demeaning another person is just wrong. We're better than this !! I'll be damned of anyone will tell me other.
steven.
19
Why did a cogent and thoughtful piece have to be advertised with such an accusatory and click-baity headline?
6
Is there anything in this article that would make a kind or considerate man join the fight against the Wiensteins, Clintons, Rileys, Cosbys and Trumps of this world? Couldn't find it. We're all a bunch of predators according to Ms Gay. Damned by that pesky 'Y' chromosome.
44
While Bill Clinton's behavior was disgraceful as a president, what he and Monica did was indeed consensual. So including him in your list with the other disgusting men is disingenuous and insulting.
22
@ JoeS: Doubt JKL was referring to Lewinsky. Clinton had many credible women allege sexual misconduct on his part. And Hillary's responses, including smearing these women, were ultimately fodder for her political opponents. Liberals (like me) are entitled to our opinions that the hypocrisy of many in the Clinton camp was problematic. And the entire matter of many women's adoration of that man is absolutely fascinating from an anthropological/sociological angle.
1
You, Sir, are forgetting the women who accused President Clinton of raping them or otherwise assaulting them. Now, why is that?
1
This column is sexist.
52
Floyd is ignorant.
Wow. Reading through the comments thus far, almost 200, men really don't want to admit there is a problem, even as women are (finally) speaking out en masse to say that there is. Let me repeat - en masse. Meaning there is nearly no woman alive, nor no little girl, who hasn't already been subjected to unwanted male attention, harassment, et al. Please understand that for most females, the harassment begins even before puberty. Ad does not let up until old age, if it does.
There is no baby too young, nor elder too old to be raped. Just read the news.
Ms Gay does not blame all men in her piece. She also acknowledges that men suffer sexual assault and harassment, most often from other men. I'd feel bad for all of you shuffling around and saying "not me" Not him" "nuh uh" "I don't see it" "we're mainly all good" if the situation weren't so dire for we ladies. While harassments and even femicides continue unabated. How often do we read about a man killing his wife and children then in a singular act of egotism, killing himself? Answer: every day of every week of every year. Nah, nothing to see here, let's move on.
Where then does all this violence and disrespect against woman come from? Thin air? The Boogie man? Not you - never you.
This comment section of men poo-pooinhg the issue and instead attacking the writer and casting blame back into women - you are all the problem.
Shame on you all.
626
My comment, which was posted before yours, was not blaming women. Rather my comment stated that this kind of article is getting tiresome where all men are blamed, in particular where many of us are actually trying pretty hard to make changes to other men's attitudes.
18
It's not about you, Joe
32
Ellen,
I think you are mistaken, Ms Gay (and her headline writer) does to my mind blame all men. Not once, nowhere, does she suggest in the slightest way that there are any men at whom her words are not directed.
Your comment and her article are insulting to men who have spoken out for years on this issue, who have for years supported women's rights, freedoms and equality.
It is misdirected to attack all men in the way you do, and worse it is extremely unhelpful to the cause about which you pretend to care.
I will continue to speak out on behalf of women. It will be despite your words and despite Ms Gay, not because of her, and I will hope that in time you might develop a less antagonistic and aggressive attitude towards men who support your cause.
7
To The Editor
Roxane Gay's column is no different than saying "All Italians are in the Mafia" or "Women don't have a head for math". Any op-ed submission with either of those theses would no doubt be quickly, and properly, discarded. It makes one wonder why a piece such as Gay's was treated differently. All I can conclude is that The Time's has moved from thoughtful, educated, liberalism to mindless, class-based, blame all of "them" looney leftism.
Every time a screed such as this is published you both debase your own standing and give fuel to Bannon and Trump and so on. You both strengthen their ties to their "base" as well as push a few more people into their camp --- folks who say "I'm a white man ... I'm tired of being blamed for all mistreatment of African Americans, I'm tired of being blamed for all mistreatment of women. Trump may be a buffoon ... but he doesn't demean me, he doesn't make me feel second-class (at least directly, to my face)".
79
I shouldn't reply to your comment; no good can come of it. But you misunderstand. Roxane is not blaming you for anything--she is asking you to engage in introspection, and then to own anything you've done, and to acknowledge the things that you've witnessed but excused or minimized. And if there's nothing, there's nothing--wow, congratulations, you have lived a model life among model human beings. But I'm skeptical.
Here is one example, just one. I could give you hundreds more. If you've ever watched a drunk friend corner a woman at a bar--literally corner her, making her visibly uncomfortable so that she keeps backing away until she finds herself in a corner with nowhere to go--and laughed about how badly the night was going for your friend, then you've seen sexual harassment in action and dismissed it as a joke. If you commiserated with your friend after one of the woman's friends intervened, steered her out of the conversation and out of the bar, then you've dismissed sexual harassment that you witnessed. If you didn't consider the woman's perspective, that a man she didn't know and didn't want to know had placed her in a position where he had physical power over her and she didn't know whether or how he was going to use that power; then you wouldn't understand that when women are now saying "Me too," one of the things they are talking about being is backed into that corner. Give it some thought
22
People who are "tired" of changing the world for the better because it is inconvenient are just lazy.
And yet the vote for Trump was seen as taking down the status quo.
1
Agreed, as the father of two girls and someone who detests Mr. Trump (yes the country elected a Harvey Weinstein, amazingly enough) drives people away. You cannot blame an entire gender and then turn around and say sexism is wrong. You are perpetuating sexism. Just substitute the word "woman" or "African American" or "Irish" or "LBGT" every time you see the word "men"-tell me how it sounds....
2
Dear Roxane. I have a 12 year old daughter. You- and similar female voices, are THE reason why rational men - no longer speak up.
You shut the conversation off at any mention of Biology. As as biologist - sorry, but that makes to too dumb to be worth talking to.
YOU - kill sensible conversation.
54
Huh?
2
As a biologist, then, (and ostensibly not a dumb one) you must know that biology does not justify rape.
1
If every woman I know has been raped or assaulted or harassed then men you too know a man who is a rapist, assailant, or harasser.
56
Please don't put me in the same camp as Weinstein. He's just a jerk through and through. A predator through and through in business, too, determined to exert control and use his power to get what he wanted no matter what it was, a script, an Oscar, sex, money, and use that same power to cover his tracks. Women were just objects to satisfy him. Control, power, objectification...nothing about Weinstein's ways suggests he respected anyone, male or female. He is the way he is because he's a jerk of a man, not just because he's a man. PS: I would like to use a stronger more descriptive word than "jerk", but these comments are moderated.
12
If anyone should be allowed to carry guns, it’s women. Just the thought of that alone already makes the world seem better to me now.
7
Not all perpetrators of sexual violence are male.
13
No one said they were.
4
For years feminists have told men to butt out of all discussion about feminism. Feminist discourse was deemed a "safe space" of sorts for women in which the Patriarchal opinions of men were unwelcome.
In essence, men: shut up and let us do the speaking. (Look up Jessica "I Bathe In Male Tears" Valenti for a prime example of this phenomenon).
I always thought that this was a puerile and counterproductive way to go about things. If you want men to change their behavior, you've got to have male allies on your side. By telling these would-be allies to shut up and put up, contemporary feminists have shot themselves in the foot.
Moreover, the title of this piece is unnecessarily inflammatory. Imagine after a terrorist attack the NYTimes posted a piece titled "Dear Muslims: It's You, Too."
Grouping all Muslims with terrorists is just as insensitive as grouping all men with sexual predators. But apparently it is OK to attack men as a whole because all men have "privilege" while Muslims are a monolithic victim group, according to the contemporary identity-obsessed left (one's identity of course being somewhere along the spectrum of "oppressor" and "victim").
This has to change. The discourse about sexual harrassment has to be more sensible. And yes, it has to include male allies. For if not, the MRAs and other unhelpful people will monopolize the microphone.
Please, let us all grow up.
93
Oh my. I wish the responses below weren't so predictable. Gentleman: she wasn't saying ALL men were rapists. She was saying, though, that men (all? or most?) do not and can not understand how deeply this affects practically ALL women. But they CAN at least listen, and not have their first entirely tiresome reaction be "Men get hurt too!" or "I never hurt anybody!" or "That doesn't seem so bad!" or "Can't you just let it go!" or "Wow you take everything so seriously!" or "That was just flirting" or "Where was he supposed to look?" Just frickin' listen. And next time your friends make rapey comments, call them on it. Stop legitimizing it -- stop winking and nodding and laughing and back-slapping. Because it's hurting us. Listen when we say, it's hurting us.
286
Nancy, can you point to where in this article Ms Gay acknowledges that not all men are the problem? Because I can't see a single word to that effect.
There are men who listen (some of whom are themselves victims of rape) there are men who speak out and men who support the rights and freedoms of women, men who wish to see the changes called for in this article.
You and Ms Gay are aggressively attacking all those men who wish to achieve the changes you wish, you are antagonising all those men who wish to understand and support. You are shooting yourself in the foot.
Despite you I will continue to speak out on behalf of women, continue to support women's rights and continue to seek changes to society that will provide women protection from the various hurts that seem to come this way.
If you insist on attacking me for doing so, if you insist on insulting me that is your right. Maybe it makes you proud, maybe it makes you feel assertive, made it makes you feel powerful if you are attacking me. So be it. I will continue to support when despite your attacks.
6
Yes, ALL women have been exposed to some level of sexual coercion from men. However, not all women consider this victimization. There are plenty of women, in this country alone, that deeply resent anyone speaking on behalf of all of them. Didn't you get that message after the Women's March on D.C. ?
1
Nancy N,
Excellent comment. Thank you for speaking out.
1
This article is not only unhelpful, it's reprehensible. Weinstein is a jerk for sure, and there are a lot more of them out there, a club overwhelmingly populated by men. But painting all men with that brush as this writer does is mean-spirited, vindictive, and cheap. Inaccuracy is the least of its problems.
Roxane, you've done your cause considerable harm by writing this. No one can help it if you feel this way, but your expressed values put you in the category of extremist. If you sow hatred, so shall you reap.
56
I agree. Her plea is like a child having a temper-tantrum screaming for attention. And you know what? It worked. She got my attention but her views are so much a part of the lunatic fringe, that the next time I see the name Roxane Gay, I will skip over anything she has to write and ignore everything she has to say. That's the price for employing a cheap grab for attention and then offering little to nothing of redeeming value. We already know that sexual harassment is wrong. Thanks but no thanks for the bulletin.
6
Vehemently disagree. This is a necessary and excellent article.
All of us, men especially, need to work on this problem. If you don't get that, it's proof that you are - purely thru your indifference, if nothing else - part of that problem.
2
Sorry, that's appalling. You get to call her an extremist? Really? As a guy, you're in charge of deciding what women's reactions to sexual harassment and abuse ought be? How do you feel about helping Gay make her point?
2
sexual violence usually is about sex- but power enables the abuser carry it out and makes them feel entitled. Most men have not harassed women in the workplace or elsewhere and some of us have spoken up about. Ms. Gay, don't bother apologizing for your over-generalizing.
12
Don't accuse me of being complicit. I have never sexually assaulted anyone.
33
Did you ever just dismiss a woman’s complaint about sexual harassment as “just boys being boys”?
Or find yourself looking for excuses or rationalizations for a guy’s predatory behaviors?
34
I don’t and have not.
But Ms Gay writes that because I am male,I have necessarily been complicit in doing so. Your loaded question seems to follow.
6
Did you dismiss a legitimate work related complaint because the usually male offender had just given the victim/usually woman a bad review? My dad’s a liberal but he's fallen for that song and dance before. I think decent men don't want to believe it ever happens.
Dad found out the hard way that he was wrong AND it was an expensive lesson because it turned out to be women, not a single disgruntled woman with a poor performance review. As the man’s ultimate supervisor he was ultimately responsible. Plus, decent men take responsibility when they contribute to the problem. Otherwise there would be more men than women. And no one would ever learn.
Cosby’s probably feeling awfully sorry for himself because of all the men who get away with it. Why him? Everybody does it. Weinstein too. And we’ve all heard Donald whine, whine, whine about the reception given to his monstrous behavior.
Men!!! Stop talking and for once listen!
9
"It would equally be a balm if men spoke up about the times when they witnessed violence or harassment and looked the other way..."
Real life is not the movies. When men call out other men it almost always turns into a fight. And now we hope our good samaritan is bigger/stronger, can fight better, is armed, or not outnumbered. Too often they end up with serious injuries or worse for just speaking out.
Allow me to carry a conceal weapon that I can use if I ever feel threatened, without fear of legal action, and I swear I'll never "look the other way".
6
Where in this country can you not get a cinceal carry permit??
Not "hit". Killed, or at the very least a good pummeling where a nose is broke or some teeth are lost. It's a threat men walk around with everyday, even without going to look for it by "butting in on business that is not theirs". The world is a far more violent and harsh place for the majority of men, and women aren't exactly lining up to champion how to teach their not to murder, to rob, not to steal. The root causes of those issues are tied in with rape. But since men are charged with fighting that war, since it is "caused by men" and thus I guess can only be fought by them, they focus on the harder battle.
1
For a more nuanced perspective on Roxane Gay and her perspective:
Roxane Gay’s Complicated “Hunger” — The New Yorker review;
By Doreen St. Félix, June 26, 2017
3
Thank you for the link. I've read some other articles about Ms. Gay, but that's the most incisive. She is a deeply, deeply troubled woman with severe emotional and physical problems, including weighing close to 600 lbs -- her stories are often conflicting and show deep seated psychological problems that are unresolved.
1
You are exactly the sort of person this article is addressing. You disagree with a woman's opinion, and so, you attack her weight, her "severe emotional and physical problems". This is exactly what this is all about.
Seems tome a lot of commenters are spending their time here "defending" men.
25
Or rationalizing their complicity.
19
Or generalizing. Or being sexist. Or conflating terms. Or illogic. Or just outright misandrist.
3
"The least you could do is speak up about the horror of sexual violence, the lies that blame women and your complicity in all of it."
Dear Roxane Gay: I am already totally on your side. There's no value in going around accusing people you don't know of unspecified sins.
35
The "not all men" rebuttal is a cliche. Do better.
292
"all men" is invoking the idea of "collective guilt" which is not a nice concept to be espousing.
1
It's a cliche because it's true.
The idea that an entire group of human beings is the cause of a social problem is utterly absurd. Since when has prejudice been progressive?
Dear Roxane: No it isn't. It is inaccurate and unfair to paint all men with the same broad brush you are using to tar the Weinsteins of this world. I have never sexually harrassed or assaulted a woman and I really resent being lumped in with the guilty parties in your poorly conceived Op-Ed.
37
I always refer to myself as an ‘equal opportunity feminist’. What I mean by that is that while I can be very vocal about sexism against women, that does not mean I will automatically agree with and take up any cause that labels itself a feminist cause. I consider each cause separately and on its own merit. And I am just as vocal about sexism against men. I can’t stand hearing women around me, or TV commercials and sitcoms, that refer to and/or portray grown men as clueless bumbling idiots who can’t change diapers or boil water for dinner. Just as sexist notions about women are not ok, nor is it about men.
But now in our ultra-PC world, whites and men (and especially white men) must atone for the sins of their forefathers. So black folk can write Op-Eds or create movies designed to enlighten white people, and womenfolk can do the same for menfolk in trying to enlighten them. And of course, this also means that these groups can now be the butt of jokes. Take the very image attached to this Op-Ed…the clear message being that men are clueless, apathetic lunkheads as it relates to the struggles of women? And this is ok …to portray and talk about all or even ‘most’ men, this way??
61
Thank you Lisa for your refreshing comment.
4
Roxanne, Please google "straw man"...The "they" in your piece don't exist...No serious person in this debate says women are somehow at fault...
13
Modern American culture reeks of sex. It is used to sell and even buy everything. It is the one thing that even the poor can indulge. Both men and women preen and dance in an endless erotic interplay. So sexual violence and harassment must be situated in this slimy saturation. Men shouting out their windows that they are guilty as sin won't cut it. Only a wholesale jettisoning of our dominator cultural model will suffice. And that's a project for both men and women.
7
The complaints that this is unfair to men are, if anything, the least of the problems with this terrible approach. Think about what kind of man can meet the standard Roxane Gay demands. He must have a history of hurting women in ways great and small that he can confess to. He must think men raping women is commonplace, something that lots of men do. He must, in short, basically be a rapist.
This kind of thinking is of course not new to feminism, and it has lead to what feels like an endless stream of prominent male feminist rapists and abusers of women, far too many of which didn't earn their reputation as feminists despite their horrific actions but because of them. (The most infamous example - and one that made it into the New York Times - is of course Hugo Schwyzer's fall from grace a few years back, but there have been plenty of others.)
13
Late 20th century medicine launched an unprecedented new creature onto the planet, the adult female human with full control of her fertility using drugs. 2500 years of ancient and established hominid social anthropological behavior just got thrown under the bus by a tectonic shift, and assumptions about life roles, mating behavior, structure of family suddenly became invalid. Deeply embedded cultural assumptions are now co-mingled with novel and untested new behaviors including status reversals and ethical and moral ambiguities that have not even begun to be sorted out. It is impossible for anyone's voice to be authoritative on any of these matters now, not Ms. Gay's, not yours, not mine. The well-worn path to dignity and nobility for both women and men has been erased, and until we find a compass, we are lost. Finding that compass will take generations of trial and error, and those of us living through the transition will be unsettled by disappearance of our sacred frame of reference. Blaming all men for the frustration that this new autonomous version of woman feels when she confronts extreme manifestations of our prehistoric shared legacy of patriarchy may feel cathartic, but is rather pointless. Massive change is already well underway. Both sexes will play a role in it, and later generations will see if we come out more civilized than before, or less so. None of us will be around then.
13
So women having the ability to control when they have children has destroyed 2500 years of "glorious" history. Really? Or that women being able to control when they have children somehow created this culture of rape and sexual abuse/harassment?
2
You mean 250,000 years, right?
1
I can't believe someone with Roxanne Gay's credentials has the audacity to write a line like "the answer is simple." The answer is not only extremely complex, there is not just one answer and any answers we come up are open to so much nuance often require constant revision. And even if there is answer, hers is not one of them. It is totally divisive, and ignores the many men who have gone to great lengths to confront and transform their own sexism for decades, opened up about their own stories of abuse, helped create support networks for victims of abuse, helped support and empower their wives and husbands and families, on and on and on. Of course, many men still need to come forward, we have a very long way to go, and women and men need to work together to create solutions, safe spaces for dialogue, but this kind of article works completely against those goals. I've participated in many of these groups myself and we ("we" the "men" who somehow aren't included in Gay's category she calls "men") have fostered incredibly rich and deep conversations. When Trump supporters point to what is wrong with the left, this is it, right here. The left used to be an ideology that championed subtly, complexity and nuance, and criticized the right for it's binary thinking and reductionist approach. What are we doing? What have we become?
33
Don't blame Roxanne Gay. There are countless commentators anxious to be heard who see complex issues in simple terms and who make generalizations that are so unfair and venomous that they just generate heat but no light on the subject.
Direct the blame towards the NY Times and other such media who select these pieces that are designed to inflame. As a commercial enterprise it is in the Time's business interest to compete as a brand with a tendentious viewpoint. Agitation sell better than education.
"What are we doing? What have we become." Look to today's commercial media--both on the right and left--for the answers to these questions.
5
Its not just Hollywood. Its the assistant manager at Denny's. Its the unemployed father of 5, 4 of the acts to get pregnant, well, unwanted and physically brutal. Its the quiet suburban household of successful business professionals. Its inherently male, the abuse. It needs remedy:affordable comprehensive local reproductive women's health care may make a sector of women have more choices.
To pretend it doesn't exist is to happily state that it doesn't exist "to my knowledge", and that is a wonderful sector of our community to live in. But the realities are there, in the community. To remain silent is to intentionally become complicit.
28
One can only hope it's few and far between. That most men don't behave in such horrific manner. Yet it is prevalent. And in the news thanks to media moguls Ailes, O'Reilly, Trump, Cosby, and now Weinstein. Not sure what can be done though. Obviously it stems from environment, friends, culture, upbringing. Can always blame the parents. Never an easy call. Like I was in the elevator today with a woman. Just me and her alone and for a second panicking what to do? So I stood there silently, motionless, staring ahead, until my floor...
2
In the elevator, saying "good morning" does not hurt.
3
Catagorising people by the set of genitals they possess is the definition of sexist. Yes, there are horrible men. There are also good men. The same applies with women. There are plenty of men and women who have no experience, first hand or otherwise, of sexual assault whatsoever. This piece is incredibly small-minded, and I think it's a shame that the editor decided it was worth publishing. The space could have been used for a much more intelligent discussion about this issue.
44
No...it's not me, too. This is the kind of man bashing article that does little to create a unified voice around a deplorable issue. As someone who decries violence against all beings, I find this article more offensive than inspiring.
44
Oh huff away in Santa Fe, while decrying violence against all living things. Why not try reading the article and giving the knee jerk a rest. She is speaking to a huge cultural problem not picking on sensitive men who have no self critical faculties.
1
So typical of Gay to blame others instead of encouraging women (and men) to accept responsibility for their own actions. The women who were sexually harassed by Harvey Weinstein kept silent in exchange for money. They are as responsible for keeping this culture going for taking the money and not speaking out. If Gay is going make a scattershot attack, why not blame his mother? Shouldn't she be held responsible for not teaching him manners?
Of course, no one should be subject to sexual harassment but the number of false accusations against men go under-reported, too. Fabricated allegations like the ones against Duke University's lacrosse players and the University of Virginia fraternity don't help those who victims who have legitimate claims.
It's good that women are speaking out and that harassers are being shamed. They should be. But directly attacking all men and blaming them for the ills in the workplace is an exaggeration and undermines Gay's credibility. And let's not forget that many women, especially in Hollywood, use their sex to manipulate men and advance their careers. So there is plenty of blame to go around.
18
Wrong.
Many of Weinstein’s inappropriate encounters ended with the woman having to pay by not having work or getting the silent blacklist treatment. Read the dang information- it is all out there.
7
I agree. If men don't want to hear this kind of vitriol it's time for us to retool. Women have been retooling solidly for the last 60 years. Men have accepted a perch of business as usual and stagnated. Now our position is moving from stagnation to decay. We use the same victim blaming evasions that racists use to deny humanity to minorities as mentioned in the article and shown in other comments..
When the Me Too hashtag came up I wanted to come forward with my own history. I was a never abused in sexual way (certainly in other way, however) but as a teen I spent a lot of my precious time and energy sliding up against women and copping a feel in crowds. I was slick and subtle enough to get away with it most of the time, but twice I didn't and I saw the look of anger and disgust on the victim's faces and I eventually grew out of it. They are the only 2 encounters I remember. All the one I got away with, I forgot.
Back then, I didn't understand the freedom the to be left alone. I later read tons of Me Too accounts and came to understood what terrible things I had done to others. Up until then, my understanding was just about me.
Even though that demon is still within me, I've spent the last 35 years working to keep him under wraps.
It's not all men. It's not women dressing suggestively. It's about being a human among other humans and respecting humanity first without reacting to the the most significant Other in your mind that will get us over.
34
Do you think your behavior then, and your demon now, was driven by sex or power?
This piece again attributes most sexual crimes and over-zealousness to a lust for power rather than a lust for sex. I'm not sure that's true, though the worst behavior does come from those with a personality that gets off on power trips and has weak conscience, unable to see the other side.
But this personality type is just as common in women. So as women gain power, which is giving them more confidence to take what they want, the "it's about power" meme implies we should be seeing a rise in female sexual crimes and indiscretions.
Conversely, it's mainly men who have high Testosterone.
Thank you. This is the sanest, most sensible article I've read on the subject. I too am tired. I'm 64 and I'm tired. But I'm not so tired that I can't stand up and say my truth when I need to for the young women who are coming after me. The thought that they have to live under the same burden -- well, it tells me what I need to focus on after I retire in a couple of years.
Thank you. I suppose you'll be vilified. Take that as proof that your article hit a bulls-eye.
76
Well by that measure Trump (who is vilified by millions) should feel pretty good. I don't think that is the measure of success, is it.
1
Time radicalizes women. And rightly so.
Here's a fun exercise. Replace "men" with Muslims in this column, and proceed to blame only them for all the terrorism in the world.
"Muslims can start putting in some of the work the rest of us have long done in offering testimony. They can come forward and say "me too" while sharing how they have hurt the rest of us in ways great and small. They can testify about how they have cornered us in public spaces or made threatening comments to us or pressured women to cover up with a veil and on and on and on."
54
Here’s a ‘me too’ exercise you can try at home to get a grass roots idea of how endemic this issue is: if you’re with a group of women, ask them if they’ve ever been ‘flashed’ (ie: a man suddenly decides to expose his genitals, usually a stranger but sometimes not, but always uninvited). You will be shocked. I’ve tried this on several occasions, not all of them in NYC, and each time every woman in the group said they, yes, they had been. I was stunned, not only because it was always everyone but also because most of the time the women had never fully characterized it as harassment or abuse. It’s so good that the conversation is slowly starting to change and men are being asked to be accountable for their actions towards women. Time to demand it, I’d say.
53
there is not such a thing as always everyone. I let four female friends read your statement all of them said that they never had that happen. Facts only please. This is why things get out of hand and lead to I'll feelings, and misunderstandings. Your point is Valid but please stick to facts not opinions.
2
I was only relating my experience, not my opinion. There’s a difference. I’m glad to hear that it’s not everyone. Gives me hope.
3
I have a fair number of flaws for which I am responsible, and which I continue, in my 8th decade to work to improve. This ain't one of them. I deplore the acts described here and feel contempt for the so-called men who commit them but I will not cry mea culpa for those acts.
22
No one is asking you to condemn yourself. Why are men so viscerally defensible about this topic? I get why the Bill Cosby’s and Weinstein’s of the world objet, but why would a decent man have a problem understanding that the problem is real and no one ever claimed all men did it or only women were victims. Simply don’t turn your back when men exhibit the litany of behaviors listed here. If decent me shun indecent men, and believe the women they victimize, that will get the job done.
5
This piece automatically assumes that all males are guilty, in one way or another, of sexually assaulting women. It also denies women any agency in their own lives because if all men have "hurt women in ways great and small" all sexual acts are coerced. Where do we go from here?
Gay's answer is that all males should confess to their complicity. They need to acknowledge that they haven't done enough to stop sexual violence by other men. I believe that people have not done enough to stop sexual violence, but women need to be a part of this too. Weinstein had his "honeypots," who would deliver young women to him and then vanish. Why are we not hearing more about them in the media?
I've had my own #metoo moment, years ago. Mine was with a stranger, so I've never felt the loss of trust and the betrayal that others have, except in the most general of senses. What he did was wrong, but no other man shares that blame, including me.
What I can do is help my children understand consent and communication. I can believe my wife of 25 years when she tells me I'm a good man and we can model what a healthy relationship looks like. What we can do is promote and encourage the sexual lives of people who trust one another, in whatever form that takes. We can continually teach young people, where ever they are, to recognize what consent truly looks like. We can build relationships between men and women on this instead of isolating them.
7
Men are subject to the same pressures that keep women from immediately reporting the sexual abuse they receive -- careers, awkwardness, uncertainty, timidity, fear of consequences, etc.
Not all men, not all the time, but it's unfair to blame all men for the actions of some men. Men are trapped in the system too.
16
I applaud Gay's position that guilt is a morally dubious source of motivation for making decisions. I hope others take note and apply it this axiom not just to sex, but also to retail purchases, religious adherence, work, dating, and family relationships. A world without the influence of guilt - think of the possibilities!
To be fair to men who say they haven't seen harassment happening, we should recognize that the worst of it, especially rape, generally happens when the perpetrator has gotten the victim alone. You won't see the most violent or blatant stuff, because it is deliberately done where it won't be seen -- predators have a better chance of getting away with it that way. But you probably have seen the more subtle stuff -- inappropriate comments, leering, invading personal space, off-color jokes, etc. If you're not sure whether what you're seeing is harassment, just imagine the woman in your office, at the store, at the gym, etc. is your sister, wife, or mother. Would you be happy about how the men around you are treating her? If not, you're witnessing sexual harassment.
27
It's hard to argue with your basic premise. It's important to have discussions like this so that the full spectrum of bad acting can sink into our heads. We men do need to sensitize ourselves to recognize degrees of misbehavior, and not dismiss inappropriate activity simply because it doesn't rise to the level of rape. Thanks for the lecture; it was overdue.
27
"Women are being hysterical, they say. Women are being humorless. Women are being oversensitive. Women should just dress or behave or feel differently."
That's not just what men say when they are denying it exists. It's what they say when they are denying that they have sexually assaulted someone. There are men who want to do better, but there are men who are doing everything they can to get away with it. This isn't just about enlightening those who want to do better. It's cracking down in those who are engaging in criminal behavior. These laws already exist. Men already know they exist. They are breaking them anyway.
8
Men "can come forward and say “me too” while sharing how they have hurt women in ways great and small. They can testify about how they have cornered women in narrow office hallways or made lewd comments to co-workers or refused to take no for an answer or worn a woman down by guilting her into sex and on and on and on. It would equally be a balm if men spoke up about the times when they witnessed violence or harassment and looked the other way or laughed it off or secretly thought a woman was asking for it."
I am a man, and I have done none of those things. Believe it or not, there is probably at least one other man in the world who has not. You are right about the abuse of women that is treated as routine in our society, but there do exist men who are not guilty of doing it, excusing it or looking the other way having seen it. I am one, and I somehow feel confident that there must be at least one other alive today.
13
I think Professor Gay paints with an extremely broad brush here. Honestly, I don't know how prevalent sexual assault and sexual harrassment are in our society. I know what is reported in state and federal crime statistics, and I do believe that the numbers reported are but a fraction of actual incidents.
Here's what I do know: I know that allegations of assault and harrassment are commonplace. I know that allegations are taken seriously everywhere I have worked or lived. I know that when allegations of sexual harrassment are made, the burden to prove one's innocence is placed on the accused, rather than the burden of proof being placed on the accuser. If Ms. Gay wants to seriously study sources of sexual power, exercised daily in America's workplaces, perhaps she could study that.
I know that I don't treat women in ways she describes. I have probably hurt some women's feelings unintentionally from time to time, probably many times that I am not even aware of. I can say I believe I have gotten much worse than I have given, but my attitude has always been that folks don't have a right to not have their feelings hurt - me included.
Professor Gay thinks we're all "bad men". She's entitled to her opinion, but so long as she holds that one, she can continue to carry her "burden" by herself. I am not a "bad man". So, put me down for NOT "me too".
13
I know this sounds shameful but I wonder how many big stars there are today simply because they said yes.
4
They would still be stars. You suggest women only get rewarded. Weinstein types don’t pick women who are big stars, they don’t want to chance missing the money they will make too.
Although I appreciate the time it takes to write an article like this, the truth is I understood the many sides of this issue better from reading the comments than from the actual piece.
9
There are as many sides to this issue as there were in Charlottesville.
As much as I find myself nodding along while reading, "There is no escaping the inappropriate attentions of men", I do think there is something we women can learn from the world of playground bullying: perceived weakness is what predators look for in their prey. And just like the tormented who finally gives his bully a punch in the nose to get the bully to back off, the harassed or abused must fight back: loudly, openly, and without the slightest shame. No, I'm not suggesting women engage in fistfights (though one must do what one must do in self-defense), but I am suggesting that "taking it" only feeds into the bully's thirst for power and dominance. Don't give them that power.
I count myself among the "lucky" who has "only" weathered catcalls on the street and abusive language on mass transit. And "only" weathered the abusive f-bombs of clients with anger issues. I have been known to walk out of meetings or hang up the phone with people who cannot control their anger, regardless of their position or mine. I have fired clients who don't treat me with respect. I give all women permission to do the same.
And yes, we women have borne the brunt of this burden for far too long. It's time for the men to carry the torch, to root out the bullies among them who give the good guys a bad name.
6
Hollywood and now American cable glorify this. Take for example any crime drama and you will notice that brutality is always depicted against women. It is like a rule of thumb and often I wonder if it has to do with the show's producer and directors having an alter subconscious mindset that gives them the pleasure of depicting rape and assault on women. A prime example - 'The Fall' and I can name many more.
1
Sure, I'll start. #metoo. As a man, I once had the gall to ask a lady friend I was interested in out for a date. Dinner and a stroll down Battery Park. She said that she wasn't interested and that she had a boyfriend. We then went our separate ways. I'm really sorry I harassed her with my request. I'm really ashamed that I thought of this lady in a romantic way. I'll endeavor not to make this mistake again.
30
Ms. Gay is precisely correct that the problem is POWER. The specific topic now is the misuse of power as sexual violence. But the problem is misuse of power.
As a young man I learned that if I spoke MY truth - that dehumanizing or degrading language has no place in ANY room (with or without lockers) - I would become the target of the bully's attention. The bully teaches us is that silence is safe. We are cowed into complicity.
As fourth graders boys learn how to relate to a schoolyard bully. Some are so excited and terrified by the bully that they hang near him, laughing at his jokes and hoping to avoid his disfavor. Others stand 20-30 feet away so they can monitor what's going on while not having to make nice with the bully. Still others head to the other side of the playground.
We choose how to avoid a bully's attention, and that silence is safer than speaking out. But then some bullies grow into predators.
When the hormones hit and sex becomes part of the equation, bullies get a new toy: sexuality. A pre-pubescent bully can now practice bullying women. From "so pretty she's asking for it" to "so ugly she needs it" ANY woman can be degraded. A bully learns to moderate his speech just enough not to provoke disapproval. AND he learns how to silence disapproval ("what are you - Gay?", "It's just talk", "Everybody likes this talk")
Men like Wienstein start young and practice.
We must teach our boys to speak up when they hear degrading talk. Silence empowers bullies.
.
15
Over the years I knew perfectly well when I would likely get comments on the street, and when I would NOT, and it was determined by how I Chose to dress. Granted, some women (esp if they are well-endowed, look like Raquel Welch, etc.) are going to get comments, no matter what. But for many other women, it is self-directed. Yes, there are some men where, it doesn’t matter what a woman does, or how she dresses…he will say she ‘drove him’ to act a certain way. And, yes, even when dressed like ready to perform in rap music video, no woman deserves to be harassed. But in many instances women indeed Want attention, while purporting otherwise.
Women in NYC have the legal right to walk around topless. And while that might feel ‘nice’ during the Summer, there’s a reason why we women don’t do that. By some of the rationales seen in this Op-Ed and Reader Comments, it seems women should walk around topless as well, since it’s ‘our right’ and….if men on the streets go nuts, then ‘they’ have the problem and they need to ‘deal with it’. And while taken literally, that may be true, women must employ common sense vis-à-vis the society in which they currently find themselves. I would think nothing of sunbathing in the nude in a park in Germany (where it’s often the norm). I’m not about to go topless on Sheep’s Meadow in Central Park.
7
Thank you, Lisa, for understanding and caring about the reality of men's sexual impulses. We men often don't exercise appropriate self control, but it is refreshing to hear a woman acknowledge that it is a two-way street.
1
Love to confess as requested. On four occasions over the last half a century I committed unwelcome physical contact. It was never to a breast or the genital region. Three of these were kisses. On each of these occasions, I was informed the contact was unwanted. I did not know this beforehand. Indeed, how could I?
During the same period, I did one of the same things about more 30 times and it was welcomed. Sometimes the welcomed contact was more emphatic than the refused one. No telepathy there either, but I just took the chance. On one occasion, I simply announced 'I'm going to kiss you now,' waited for a few seconds to learn of any objections, then did so. It was tolerated for a few seconds, accepted for a few more seconds, then welcomed in just under ten seconds flat. (I was counting.)
Articles like this conflate stories like the above and those of the Hollywood casting couch under the rubric of 'abusive things men do.' Yes, Weinstein et all are repugnant, even if they do so mostly in the dubious norms of their industry. (There's no count of all of the times his attentions were accepted as a part of the same transactional fabric.) Cosby even more so because he took matters out of the woman's control, even when she was likely about to say yes anyway.
I'd be proud to stand shoulder to shoulder with the abused women against these guys who, frankly, are no better to men than to women. All it takes is a distinction between me and them I don't see here.
11
You know I'm kinda tired if being bundled up in this crowd. This is not me and I won't be vilified as such. Where is the discussion around women in business baiting men with all the power at they also possess. Does anyone believe this doesn't happen. And how about telling me the 2 line definition of sexual misconduct, because I'm thinking it ranges somewhere between glancing at a women to the most extreme and bizarre actions. I am now at as point where looking at someone and politely saying hello is just a bad idea. I would also like to know why when all these accusations are flying that most times the perpetrator is not being identified by name?
How is that guys like Weinstein, Spitzer, Wiener are setting the bar for the rest of us. BTW notice a pattern here. I know that misbehavior exists I'm not ignorant but com-on it is not a one way street folks. The news has to call out the accusers and make them identify the name of the person they are accusing.
8
Imagine how tired you would be of the daily sexual harassment.
All the articles and columns like this are starting to sound like the tRump comment about Mexicans: All men are rapists or sexual predators.
I have, for about 20 years spoke up to men I work with, men I have hung out with, friends, and strangers. And I for one am TIRED of hearing the patently offensive statement "Men at least you could... whatever"
From the earliest age I can remember, my father taught me to respect girls, women, and in particular my sisters and mother. I'm not perfect, but I'm not "Harvey Weinstein" and I resent the continued assault on all of us men. I understand the disappointment, but have you never had a man stand up for you? If not, then perhaps look in the mirror and figure out why. I've stood up for hundreds of women across my life at work, in public, and in my private life.
28
1) You act like men are never the victims of sexual harassment or sexual assault in the workplace?
2) You act like all men HAVE sexually harassed or assaulted women in the workplace?
3) You think that feminism is 100% about us vs. them, about "they were in the lead now we need to be!" That is wrong, and that is why I don't identify as a feminist.
I really think if people would work on solutions instead of name-calling and saying "they're all like that!", we'd be better off.
How can we combat a few men harassing and assaulting women by saying all men are like that? It is like saying all women use sex as a weapon, they don't, and they don't.
The whole notion of consensual sex between a man and a woman is impossible if men are always at fault and harassing and assaulting. Let's get rid of that fairy tale once and for all.
Or start realizing men who harass and assault are CRIMINALS and other men are NOT. A woman who knows of sexual harassment or assault is just as bad as a man who knows of sexual harassment or assault. Just like a person of the victim's race who sees a racist act is as guilty as a person not of the victim's race who sees a racist attack, if they don't tell.
48
I wish women knew how hard it is for men to police other men. It sounds so easy, but it's not. Especially because of the way our culture praises power. The most misogynistic also seem to hold the most power outside of the bedroom, which is attractive to men and women. The worship of money and power in America makes the wave so hard to buck, especially when many good men have spent a lifetime insulating themselves from these jerks they've known since middle school.
39
Change the gender, fellah. Do YOU know how hard it is for WOMEN to police men? We need backup, pal.
9
Who is covering the backup?
That is a very good description of patriarchy. Powerful men subjugating and intimidating those with less power, men and women both. It's exactly what feminism wants to dismantle.
1
Lets not forget 53% of caucasian women who voted in 2016 voted for the man who brags about sexually assaulting women. 49% of all women who voted voted that way. Only 50% of caucasian men voted that way yet the myth prevails that he was a white racist male's candidate. There's lots of blame to go around and if we continue to point fingers as feminists and not deal with why anyone would support such abuse- regardless of gender or sex- we do ourselves a massive disservice for the cause.
38
Ms. Gay I beg to differ. All men are not to blame. Apparently we've never met. Drop me a line to talk to a man who has never harassed or raped anyone. BTW, there are lots of us.
58
George, the truly introspective and concerned men hear Ms. Gay's point. Even if they have not participated in assault or harassment directly, they admit that they have been in the room when women were belittled, demeaned, talked about as sex objects, etc. and not spoken up. Or they have suggested the problem was exaggerated. Or worried a lot more about the few times a man is falsely accused rather than the 99% of times when those who rape and assault are not held to account. Or thought less of women who were as sexually active as the average man. Or blamed a victim of assault. Or failed to help create a system at work where the victims of sexual harassment and assault can see that the abuser is fired. As a person who has pursued getting justice for those who have been violated, it is not the violators themselves who are the biggest barrier to justice, it is the men and women who justify and excuse bad behavior and refuse to create systems that hold perpetrators to account. This is not an individual problem. It is a social problem. If you are not weighing in to solve it, you are helping the status quo.
22
Is every comment on this column going to consist of men complaining about their position in this little horror show?
We now know what the problem is. For the thick, it”s that men absolutely refuse to take responsibility for their individual or group behavior. They have all judged themselves not guilty? Really?
15
The author is right in saying that “sexual violence is about power” and that modest clothes and behavior will not solve the problem. Look at ISIS and many Islamic terrorists. They’re some of the most notorious sexual predators. And the women they prey on, are devoted Muslim women in burqas not bikinis!
To think that women’s clothes and behavior have anything to do with sexual violence is completely delusional.
41
I don't want men to share or testify or speak up about what they saw, I want men to stop. I want men to stop hurting women in ways great and small. I want men to stop laughing and saying boys will be boys and saying it's only locker room talk and saying it isn't hurting her and saying she's probably lying and saying she's over reacting and saying he's my friend so I will let it go. I want men to stop calling women girls. I want men to stop telling boys that they are girls when they want to demean them. I WANT IT TO STOP!
61
I acknowledge your pain.
1
What is to be done about this aspect of #metoo: An unstable girlfriend tells me she will inform the police (or friends) that I beat her up or raped her - none of it true, which she acknowledges - unless I retract my intention to break up with her? How many men have had to deal with that?
29
If she does make accusations, even completely false ones, you will be living a nightmare for years in the courts. Find yourself a good lawyer, immediately. Do NOT let her find out you're doing this (probably you can't trust any friends or family to keep their mouths shut). After you get away from her, cut off all contact, and make sure you are never alone with her again. You might need to file something against her preemptively.
8
In Iran men gasp with arousal if a woman hailing a cab shows a little wrist. It is definitely not about whatever she was wearing. There is no standard of modesty that works or all women would employ it up to and including wearing what the actresses wear in the handmaidens tale.
1
Yep, you've run into a nasty woman. If you were a male couple, she'd be a nasty man. I'd suggest a tape recorder. The column was about a different problem, though.
Roxane Gay's open letter to men is one-sided and accusatory. Gay makes it sound like there are only two kinds of men - men who are sexual predators and men who don't do their part to report or prevent the sexual predators. That's a gross over-simplification of an issue that has plagued humanity for millennia. Sexual harassment, sexual abuse, and rape are very real problems in society, but so is the over-sexualization of our youth, the proliferation of pornography, the erosion of marriage, the rise of militant feminism, and the increase in violence and sexual content in TV/film. Gay also seems to dismiss the role of modesty and responsibility for choices in these discussions, saying "women cannot possibly solve this problem they had no hand in creating." What a sweeping generalization! She has nothing to say about the struggle men have to make wise choices in such an over-sexualized culture. This should not become a witch hunt. We need to have frank discussions about these issues and acknowledge how complex these problems are. We need to probe the roots that cause the kind of behavior we see in men like Weinstein. Gay wants to solve this problem, but it's not enough to shame perpetrators or guilt men until they are walking on eggshells around women. No, better that we find ways to encourage mutual respect and healthy sexuality and boundaries, as well as promote goodness and modesty in the entertainment industry. How to do this? Let’s talk about it!
47
How is "the rise of militant feminism" responsible for an increase in sexual harrassment?
6
Red herrings, sir. If we follow your advice millennia will pass without progress. Any protestation is a bump in the road to solving this pernicious threat to the healt and happiness of women and we’ll all still be “talking about it.”
Eggshells indeed. Walk a mile in my shoes, sir.
2
Totally agree. But do you care about all the male victims? All the prisoners raped under lock and key who aren't even counted? I assure you there are plenty of women who openly or tacitly condone rampant prison rape as a sick form of "justice". I do think that women on average have it much worse in this predatory mess, but it's time to update the conventional wisdom to offer support and compassion for all victims of sexual violence.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_amer...
14
This is yet another unfortunate article by Ms. Gay. Who is this "we" she speaks of? All women, everywhere? And who are these men? All men, everywhere? Is this addressed to Finnish men? Inuit?
The is called the ecological fallacy: indiscriminately using a group identity to allegedly address individuals.
It is ironic that those who wish to speak about multiplicity in our world so often use a denial of it as a chief weapon.
I am sorry, Ms. Gay. When you speak of "men," I honestly do not know who you are talking about, and it is wearying that such rhetorical fallacies get so easily printed in the NYT. As I said: ecological fallacy. look it up. Also, maybe take a look at Kelly Oliver's article in the NYT's regular "The Stone" on current philosophy, titled "Education in the Age of Outrage."
41
We've had forty years of male-bashing. This piece is the latest example. And then it concludes with a request for men's help. In general, haranguing someone is not the best way to get them to help you.
This piece and the NYT's editorial policy of publishing stuff like this is not helping the cause of women. There are a few women that I know, care about, and and for whom I am willing to do quite a lot. But women in general? No. If there really is a "culture of rape," (highly doubtful) why should I care?
22
If you can't bring yourself to mind living in a world where rape is a constant threat, might it not occur to you that the threat extends to the few women in your life you deign to care about?
18
In my neighborhood, no one messes around with either me or my women.
@James Eric------Guess again.
Sexual harassment and rape cross all cultures and professions. I have had the experience. Mostly it was friends of friends. Professional persons. It was demeaning. It would be nice to name their names but these folks likely will not recognize their own names much less what they did. Speak up men. How about a simple apology.
2
If Professor Gay believes that there are such fundamental, incompatible, and irreconcilable differences between women and men, as those she alludes to in this article, then she should change her field, from whatever it is called to human genetics and try to develop a new human race. Perhaps a single-gender race, with some inherent ability of vegetative reproduction, would fit the bill.
24
Whoa! 8 comments in and the men are already pointing out 'there are women enablers too!'. Calm down, Read the piece. This one does focus on the silence and enabling of men. There is a lot of 'blame' to go around in our "rape culture". This article asks men to look at their specific part. It does not lay the blame at your feet alone.
So take a deep breath and think about the whole situation of sexual harassment and sexual assault and how 'men' have contributed to it in small to large ways.
Being complicit is not a male prerogative but it exists and must be confronted.
57
always make sure that those you confront are actually complicit= those you scapegoat are less likely to be your allies. Yes, we should never stop talking about aggressing and exploitation and we should do al we can to defend potential and actual victims, to disable offenders from re-offending, and to forever remember the evil deeds of those offenders and keep them in the public eye.
I will pay good money to see Elizabeth "confront" herself.
Plenty of opportunity. Many comments here make true criticisms of Gay's cult piece to the choir.
Ain't gonna happen.
Koolaid drinkers don't accept it when they are shown to have false premises. Koolaid now koolaid forever.
Whoa your self Elizabeth. Roxane Gay get a NYTimes megaphone for her screed, and those who differ with it should just shut-up and consider their personal sins.
This article is a personal insult. To me and many men. Go chase the culprits,don't smear guilt like peanut butter on every thing you see.
1
The biggest problem here is the contempt doled out to whistle-blowers, of both sexes and for all reasons not just limited to sexual harassment. It is only rarely accepted that anyone, ever would rat out a co-worker. There is reluctant acceptance of whistle-blowing in large companies with well supported HR departments. In spite of that, no one is comfortable around them. Do you want your job? Do you want to be shunned by co-workers? Are you confident that word of your depraved behavior won't follow you to your next job? The only real answers are Yes, No, and No.
Women don't speak up because they risk their well paying jobs by calling out a powerful man, or sometimes not so powerful. Men who report harassment would suffer the same fate. Martyrdom, in principle should feel good; in practice it interrupts careers and livelihoods. Realistically there are two alternatives: tolerate the harassment, or keep your mouth shut while finding a better job, like I did.
9
If we all continue talking about this common crime or problem the less ashamed violated women may feel and they will come forward. Also it could make a male think twice before sexually hurting another human being. We can only hope.
6
I am 72 years old. I have not led a sheltered life, and perhaps I have just been lucky. But my grandfather, father, uncle, husband, the dozen/more husbands of my good friends now have no apologies to make. Include all of my parents male friends also, and the many men I have worked with and for. Gentlemen in both senses of the word. There is millions of them out there - and to say they should say "me too" is insulting beyond anything. Both my husband and I are startled by the number of "Me Too" stories - but I will not apologize for being "NOT ME" and he certainly has no apology for being male.
53
You know this about all these people?? Well color me skeptical that all people in an extended family, all friends, etc have no dysfunction along the lines Gay describes. Incredulous even.
6
So - you know my friends and family better than I do? Okay. Small family as I said - but parents had lots of friends and I knew them all for 40 - 50 years until they all passed away. Our friends we have now we have known for nearly 30 years, and some of them have been friends for nearly 50 years. The women often mention how every one of them are decent good men (and liberals). The men I worked with, yes, I did not know their home life, but never saw, nor experienced, nor heard of any sexual predators. But I am sure you and Ms. Gay know better. Sad attitude.
1
I am part of the male half of the population Ms. Gay addressed this Op-Ed piece to. In my twenties, while working at a law firm in New York with a well defined sexual harassment policy, I became aware of a male co-worker who had sexually harassed a female co-worker by making disturbing and inappropriate sexual comments while they were working together late in the evening. The victim did not want to go to the supervisor about it. Perhaps this was a mistake, but I felt I needed to do something as I worked with over half a dozen women in this group and the behavior was simply beyond the pale.
I went to the boss, told him what happened and expressed I thought the assailant (who was a temp) needed to be removed. The boss did nothing, saying that he didn't want to "rock the boat" with something like this. After I told the victim what I had done, she was upset with me for doing so without her assent. I'm not sure if the perpetrator ever learned that I had informed the boss about him (not that I cared) but if he had I'm sure he would not have been happy (not that I cared about that either). In the end, nothing was done at all except for at least two of the parties being unhappy with my taking a stand.
Perhaps this is why many men don't say anything and/or stay out of these situations. Particularly without the victim's active participation, there is often little accomplished besides more bad feelings in the workplace.
17
You did the right thing. Moral behavior is not always rewarded in the moment.
4
I take great umbrage over this article. I'm a 59-year-old white male attorney. Trust me, no man had better not physically or emotionally assault a woman in front of me
I can only guess that Ms. Ray is directed her complaint to specific people.
8
I'm pretty sure she was directing it to everyone who identifies as male. Self-criticism, empathy, and conscientiousness are wonderful things that should be practiced by everyone sometimes, particularly those who have enjoyed unearned privileges. I doubt the intent of the article was to indiscriminately harm men's self-concept, but if I'm wrong, and in the unlikely event that Gay hopes that she made a lot of non-rapist men feel guilty for trying to have sex without the assistance of coercion, threats, or black-out intoxicants, then that would make her...a bad opinion columnist? I can think of worse roles to play in life.
4
Dear Ms. Gay,
I suspect you'll find that blaming all men for the actions of a few is not a winning strategy.
I have never "cornered women in narrow office hallways or made lewd comments to co-workers or refused to take no for an answer or worn a woman down by guilting her into sex and on and on and on."
Nor have I witnessed such behavior.
I'm not sure what kind of world you live in where that sort of thing is common, but it is not the world I inhabit.
27
Big Brush Paint Broad Strokes.
Have you learned nothing from the Biggest Brush of all brushes? Trump?
All men are responsible for the man who is a predator. Even thinking that they are is the exact equivalent of saying all women are temptresses because of Eve.
One man is found to be repugnant because of predatory acts? Exile that specific man, or woman, or person. I prefer 'Person'.
My experience has been that the world is made of many people and they are all just as confused as myself. There are a few that sit on the sidelines and observe. While the rest of us are wandering around trying to figure out where our places are in the herd, they are selecting their next prey. It really has nothing to do with power, gender, politics, religion, or skin color. It's simply predator and prey.
When we refuse to see this we all are simply future prey.
All males are not predators. All females are not temptresses.
We are each ourselves and we choose whom we shall be numbered among.
The conclusion is to be whom you are because you choose that path. You will earn the penalty that is the cost and believe me, every aspiration has a cost.
10
Although I agree with this column, shouldn't we start taking a closer look at the Anna Wintertours and Scott Rudins of the world too? Sexual harassment aside, these are notoriously mean spirited people who made a reputation in abusing their staff to the delight of their own egos. Isn't it time for this to go too?
8
Bravo! We need to start ostracizing bullies and abusers of all kinds instead of lionizing them as "strong" leaders.
6
Hey guys? Maybe we could, you know, turn off the defensiveness and just reflect on what was said here? Even if you, specifically, haven't harassed anyone, we still all have a responsibility to be part of solution. Don't put up with male friends and colleagues who degrade or disrespect women. Call them out on it. Don't turn a blind eye. That's called just being a decent human being.
256
Hey guy, I already do! Lots of guys I know do too. So what’s your point?
Women who use their sexuality to get ahead are complicit in this too. They shouldn't be the focus of this scandal, but they shouldn't be ignored or let off the hook, either.
12
I will begin your requested testimony. Most ALL men want sex and think about sex, frequently. In contradistinction to your undocumented assertion that "sexual violence is about power", sexual violence is about getting sex whenever one can get away with it. We need to understand and acknowledge this, and ultimately accept it, because it likely has been this way for a hundred thousand years or so and there is no reason to believe it will change.
1
Nah. Harvey could have bought all of the great sex that he wanted. It wasn't about sex. It was power pure and simple, the joy in watching women suffer in choosing between a career and giving in to the slob.
Having said that, most men are not like Harvey and this article is rather sophomoric in its broad brush strokes. Most men are decent actually.
5
Women are in no way hysterical, humorless, or oversensitive for bringing up sexual violence. Their dress and behavior are not the problem. The harassment and assault by some men is the problem.
In my entire life of 50 years I only remember one man every saying "look at her, she is asking for it". I was disgusted and said so. I have never heard a man recount with pleasure a rape or assault story.
Domestic violence between intimate partners is another issue entirely. In my life I've seen both men and women initiate that, at similar rates.
A lot of men in prison are sexually assaulted by other men, as are women in prison and both men and women are sexually assaulted by prison officials.
8
Sorry, it's not me, it's you. Have never ever in my whole life made any woman feel uncomfortable through my actions. No mattresses at graduation.
I am proud that my wife worked as a senior banking executive, my daughter moving in the luxury industry and I would not have had them suffer any of the indignities you refer to.
In short, I am not taking any responsibility for anything that has happened to you or anyone else. At 70+, I'm also not going to be a potential perp going forward
This Harvey thing is morphing into a war on men. The war will have serious consequences for relationships in the future. Men will be required to not only take the first step: propose, buy the ring (x% of salary);bring home the bacon, help with housework; watch Midsommer Murders on TV (stultifying); take out the garbage; ferry the kids to some meaningless sport that increase the chances of Ivy League admission yada yada.
I'm not a 'player' so I can say this honestly. This war on men is not going to increase the 'commitment' factor. And maybe that's not a good/bad thing. Sauve qui peut
11
You're making me uncomfortable right now.
There's a first time for everything!
Please, men are not the problem! Male dominance and female subjugation are perpetuated generation after generation of our so-called civilization. Who educated these men? They are the mothers and fathers who passed down traditional gender roles to their kids, the teachers who encouraged boys to excel in rigorous academics while relegating girls to lesser challenges, the publishing and entertainment industries that promote physical beauty and sexual appeal as the utmost worthy cause to pursue. Men are not the problem, it's this toxic culture that's been brewing for thousands of years, spotted by mini revolutions like gaining the right to vote or having access to the same education as men. To effect real change, we need to educate our sons and daughters about gender equality, starting at home. It will take them and their kids and their grandkids many years before we can change minds and hearts. Like Sandberg says in Lean In that we won't have true gender eqaulity until half of the women run our companies and half of the men run our homes.
2
The extremism of turning on ALL men, the innocent along with the guilty, IS a witch hunt and only make things worse, as good men will resent and fear women. Injustice breeds injustice. Comfort and befriend the good men. They need our support as much as we need theirs.
14
Two choices. Do and say what I want you to do and say OR you're complicit with the rapists and harassers. Not much space there for rational discussion about a difficult and complex issue. It's terrible to be reductive about gender, unless that gender is male, and then it's woke.
12
We ARE asking “what can we do to help?” We want to help change the culture. We have spoken out and acted out against harassment and the sexist attitudes that normalize it, and we have done so at risk to ourselves and our livelihoods. But it’s really hard when the tenor of the conversation puts men (and white males, in particular) into a class, and suggests we are all equally complicit. Harvey Weinstein is a sick guy, a bad example of what a man can be. There are plenty of men just like him, but we aren’t ALL just like him. Please don’t alienate us as enemies when we want to enlist as allies.
12
Don't hold your breath. I was over at a friends' house--a couple. While the woman and I talked, the guy was doing house things and made a mess of the kitchen floor, water everywhere. Then he walked away. The woman discovered it a few moments later and called him to come in and see. He mocked her for several minutes, deriding her and calling her mom. So she then cleaned it up. This is one of the good guys. This is an ordinary, loving, long lasting marriage. This is "acceptable marriage banter." I see this kind of behavior over and over. The guy makes a mess. The woman wants him to clean up what he did. The guy belittles her and walks away. The woman has a choice: clean it up or live with the mess.
Honestly, I don't hold out hope that even the better guys, the good guys, are going to do much about sexual predation of women and girls. Maybe girls. Sexual predation of boys, yes. But not women. They'll say they agree with the right side of the problem. And they do in theory. But in practice they will find a way to make the women responsible for the mess the men have created.
It's the men exerting power in the household, or workplace, or park, or sidewalk, or store, or plane, requiring that the women tend to them or live with substandard conditions as a punishment. I got this at work from a male boss. These are the good guys, the decent men who don't grab women on the subway or at work. It is a daily, wearying, constant culture of powering over. I just stay away from men now.
30
Wait what? This is a terrible analogy.
A better one would be if a stranger that neither knew walked into their house and spilled water on the floor. After said stranger left, who's responsibility is it to clean up the water? The answer is unclear right?
Should we decide who the appropriate cleaner is based on the sex of the stranger? If he was male the husband, and if female the wife?
Seriously how is this event related to the article, or the subject.
1
@Tsultrim--------Brava! (or, if you're a man, Bravo!)
Dear Roxanne, I am a man and have been subjected to sexual violence and harassment by other men, including an incident that involved a man convicted of extreme violent rape of a women. I helped get him arrested (in my escape). My testimony helped convict him.
Like most men, I've never sexually bullied other women or men and I responded with defiance to the sexual power games and violence I've been subjected to.
I've never encouraged a man to treat women with disrespect or even conversed with men disrespecting women in my adult life (OK, I admit it I don't get around much with the type of men who might be into this). I've also not heard men claiming women are hysterical, etc- stop creating straw men to divide us.
Please let's focus on the actual villains, act on it and also on the many other injustices in our society, some of which affect men more than women, such as gun violence and obscenely high incarceration rates.
Women are the most common victims of sexual violence and harassment, but this Facebook movement to raise male awareness seems like a big Oprah moment with not much chance of reducing the problem.
We need laws that allow victims to register complaints with state data bases that are sealed to non-law enforcement until enough complaints are there to make a case against a serial sexual abuser. We need to make non-disclosure agreements illegal that preclude victims from submitting complaints to such a list and testifying in court.
10
News of the past few weeks has driven home how fortunate I am not to have experienced harassment, especially ongoing harassment, in my 3+ decades of work. Even if it was less ethics-based and more because the corporations I've worked in feared financially crippling lawsuits or bad press, they quietly (thus, I have no knowledge of legal action) but quickly terminated men who committed sexual harassment.
On the sole occasion when a (married) colleague made a pass, I rebuffed him. When he asked, "ya sure?" (which, to me, was the moment he crossed from inappropriate to something worse, though not necessarily reportable) I made very deliberate eye contact and said, "don't make me take you to HR." I don't suggest it's always this easy but in my case, problem solved.
I've had discussions with some of my men and women friends, and we agree that all men need to understand: even if a woman were totally naked, you are not entitled to rape, grope, touch or otherwise threaten her. Nor do you have the right to do those things to a woman, drunk or sober, in revealing or modest, tight or loose, or sexy or frumpy garb. The appearance of the woman adds no latitude to how you may treat her.
Most women seem to know this. I believe most men seem to know this, too. Maybe all that's missing is for true gentlemen, when confronted with the opportunity, to rise to the occasion and educate the lessers of their gender.
6
I get the definite feeling that nothing I say would be credible to Ms. Gay unless it was something she has already decided to believe. Yes, sexual harassment and violence are despicable, but I am going to be listening to other women (and men like Jackson Katz) in deciding what I should be doing about. Perhaps Ms.Fay's rage will help others, but it doesn't help me know what I could be doing to help.
14
Thank you.
3
Project much?
If a perp abuses or demeans a woman, most (honorable) guys won’t keep quiet.
But yet these incidents happen. Why?
Because most abuses happen in private and secluded situations. When only 2 people are present, and no witnesses.
Encouraging men to report is good when that is possible. But in most cases, the victims must come forward and report to anyone, even Wikileaks, if they agree to expose these sick elements.
6
Thank you. I share your views completely and am grateful you wrote them. I hope someday you will no longer have to write about this because things will be better. It’s true...men must start participating next solving this!
5
If the Weinstein films these females starred in were worth seeing, there would be a case to make.
But the films are not worth seeing.
1
My vote for creepiest comment.
6
I agree with the tone of the article -- the author is sick of the victim being blamed. That seems more than fair to me. I do think that it is the responsibility of abusive men to come forward and help resolve this problem. Of course, some of those abusive men are protected by other men, who themselves have culpability. At the same time, many abusive men are trained or protected by mothers, daughters, sisters, female friends, so I think we need to be careful when we seek to blame "others" for the acts of abusive men.
...and what are we to do with Mike Pence? So afraid of being with a woman who is not his wife. Is he afraid of what he might do? The problem is that, by not meeting with any woman one-on-one, he does not allow any woman, regardless of her stature, to press her case for any policy, and we all become dispossessed because Mike is too afraid of himself to hear us out.
11
It's everyone. Categorical accusations can do more harm than good. They result in righteous anger from those that are already trying hard to do the right thing, and worse than that, they act as a free pass for peer oppressors – those complicit in the mistreatment of others in the same category as themselves.
The answer is simple.
Want to eliminate categorical mistreatment of one group by another? Stop categorizing.
Instead, stand up for every offense, regardless of the identity or characteristics of the victim. Regardless of the identity or characteristics of the oppressor. Implore others to do the same.
1
Men are responsible for about 90% of all homicides. Will asking all men to address homicides stop or even significantly reduce homicides?
6
'women cannot possibly solve this problem they had no hand in creating'
sorry but as a man I don't buy that line - the usual female tactic of blaming men for everything to keep them on the back foot and apologetic for something they didn't do - like I should apologise for what a criminal did - I don't think so.
women are complicit in creating these problems when they choose not to speak up - when they choose to compete with each other for men's attention - when they compete on attractiveness to get men's attention.
as a man I have never seen Weinstein in action - I'm pretty sure the women concerned wanted something from him - the chance to become a star actress - and when he demanded something of them most of them didn't say anything - much - until now. So that's my fault ? I don't think so.
8
No, Frank, you're (maybe) not actually assaulting anyone, but the thing that *you, personally* are doing wrong is a) victim blaming and b) blaming women at large for men's poor behavior.
That's how you, Frank from Sydney, contribute to the problem. You ARE at fault.
I'm an old, white male, and although I exercised some authority in my youth I can say with confidence that no one will find reason to accuse me of abusing that authority. For most of my working life I've been on the border between blue and white collar (teaching, etc.). I've seen power abused frequently, although not for sex, by both men and women supervisors. I've also seen a few women flirt with male supervisors for career advantages. There is a real problem with sexual abuse, just as there is systemic racism and tax avoidance. If you want my help in confronting sex abuse you need to recognize that my consciousness was raised, probably before you were out of diapers, and that not drinking your cool aid does not make me part of the problem.
9
Pointing fingers and laying blame (which was my take away from Ms. Gay’s column). reducing this very real issue into just one more battle between the sexes, will serve no purpose other than to ratchet up the acrimony and the anger on both sides.
In the wake of the Weinstein scandal, why not resolve to speak out against sexual abuse and harassment whenever and wherever it occurs, and give those who are victims of it — both women and men — courage of our belief and our moral support that they need to speak out?
It’s on all of us to bring this reprehensible behavior out of the dark and into the disinfecting light of day.
Perpetuating stereotypes and using broad-brush characterizations, as Ms. Gay seems to be doing, are not helpful.
4
I like this piece for its identification of the problems in society today, but I disagree with the solution. I honestly don't think most men are going to be able to "testify about how they have cornered women in narrow office hallways or made lewd comments to co-workers or refused to take no for an answer or worn a woman down by guilting her into sex and on and on and on." I also don't think most men will have "witnessed violence or harassment and looked the other way or laughed it off or secretly thought a woman was asking for it." Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't think most men in this country have taken actions like that, such that you can lump them all into a single category. Instead, I think men should not doubt or ignore the accounts of the me too movement; that they should support women who come forward and engage in candid discussions regarding how to eliminate the assault and harassment of women; and that they should support feminist goals in their relationships (e.g., sharing equally in housework), workplaces (encouraging participation from women and not excluding them from networking functions), and in public (not tolerating degrading discussions of women or use of gendered language among their friends). I think most men will have plenty of self-reflection to do in those departments.
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If only the answer were that simple, Ms. Gay. The fact is, the great majority of men (at least those that I know or have ever known) genuinely respect women. They would never tolerate any kind of harassment against women, much less violence against them, while the men who commit such crimes will never be swayed by exhortations like this. You'd might as well castigate law-abiding gun owners for the crimes committed by violent gun owners. As long as the focus of the blame is "men" rather than "offenders," entreaties like these, no matter how well-meaning, will not only fall on deaf ears but do nothing to solve the problem.
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I am utterly exhausted and disappointed by the tenor of the comments to Ms. Gay's op-ed. I thought we were better than this and I had more faith that more men understood the myriad issues around sexual harassment and sexual assault. But alas, almost all I see is a lot of "not all men" indignation. And you wonder why more victims don't come forward sooner, more forcefully, or at all.
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My father, born in the 1920s, said repeatedly to my brother and me when we were kids "Never hit a woman." I taught my son (now an adult) the same. As a Catholic Italian American, I can assure you respect for women is part of our culture. Thinking about it now, it is part of all our cultures.
Please don't confuse aberrant behavior with general acceptance of violence. Men do not condone violence against women.
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"And then they start to panic because not all men are predators and they don’t want to be lumped in with the bad men and they make women’s pain all about themselves.
Ms. Gay writes with an overly broad brush in my view. I'm well aware that sexual assault against women is pervasive, and that men can do more, far more to address it.
We have two daughters, and each one is a victim of sexual assault. In the case of our older daughter, this was a critical factor in the eating disorder she developed. I spent more hours than I can count over a five year period fighting insurance companies and occasionally health providers to see that she received the care she needed. In the case of our other daughter, I devoted many more hours seeking justice against the perpetrator. This was a difficult, stressful period, and it had a lasting impact not only on my daughters, but me.
Not every man, as Ms. Gay seems to suggest, is on the sidelines on this issue.
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Good piece. I do think that many men also have the critical thinking skills to consider whether they are complicit in this. And some men are not. You don't offer a starting point for men who honestly can't come clean through confession. Maybe even most men are complicit, but there are some who have no more blood on their hands than the average woman. And there are more who do, but don't realize it or believe it. Your essay doesn't offer any any suggestions for these two groups, who more than likely will react poorly to this piece. Of course that doesn't negate the many truths you write, but it will shut the conversation down for some.
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Chris, if this is truly not you, then you are one step ahead of the game and should simply continue on the same path. Or you could step it up:
- you could talk among your male friends about the stereotypes and sexist images you see in media.
- you could volunteer for an organization that helps women.
- you and your friends could discuss how to build an identity as a healthy man.
- you could ask your female friends if they have any experiences they'd be willing to share. Then listen.
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AMEN, Ms. Gay. If actual, real victims of sexual violence were afforded even half of the knee-jerk concern given every hypothetically accused, potentially innocent man, this world would be a very different place. I’ve had enough and I’m done with the hand-wringing and excuses. And if your response is #notallmen, you are the problem.
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I hope your us-against-them strategy works for you. For now, the smart money is on them.
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If you ask me to jettison my respect for the rule of law, presumption of innocence, and intellectual integrity, then as a woman, I’ll say ‘no’. I am a feminist but I’m a human being and a liberal first.
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@Stevenz-------------------You're right, Stevenz, the smart money is on them. That's how it's always been, The reason is that we are actually nothing but "evolved" Chimpanzees, the males of which are similarly dedicated misogynists and, like us, are prone to brutality and are warmongers. Therefore, I believe that the problem is genetic. Too bad one of the other three great apes didn't evolve instead of Pan Sapiens?, the name I call our species, including the question mark. But maybe, after Trump starts WWIII with all his fascinating nuclear toys, we'll be done and, if any survive, some of the saner primates will decide to evolve.
Yes, men need to step up. But, so do women. Everyone in Hollywood knew about Weinstein, including very powerful women, and yet they failed to step up either. I'm looking at you, Meryl Streep. You most certainly knew, despite your dubious claims of ignorance. Shame on the entire Hollywood community.
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I agree. Meryl Streep, one of the best connected actors in the U.S., knew/had heard nothing of this? Completely strains all credibility. Have totally lost respect for her.
If this doesn't end, our society will be condemning the next generation of young women, and the next after that to suffer. I'm including sexual assault (groping) on NYC subways, which, based on my discussions with friends since the Access Hollywood tape a year ago, is basically a universal experience of young women who use public transit.
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I'm not defending Meryl Streep, or any woman in power for that matter. The nuance missing in your comment is that white, upper middle class/rich, men are at the centre of power. White, upper middle class/rich, women are socially located much differently than men. Instead of heaping more shame on women, why not stand by and be an ally of all women?
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Dear Roxanne Gay,
I just lost a woman I loved to a man who treated her horribly. Who was on the verge of physically abusing her by her own words. He also showered her with gifts and made slightly more money than me. She had been abused in her past and was drawn top these qualities of mistreatment and power. But aren't everyday women too?
I countered with empathy and horror. Exactly the wrong thing to do.
She near the end told me to "...act like a rooster and order me around. It's sexy." I was never physical with her. I'm the nice guy.
Until 'you women' quit glorifying "The Bad Boy" and buying '50 Shades of Grey' in droves you are just as complicit in propping up misogyny and the Patriarcy. Make up your minds or you are fuel to this fire too.
What's the cement of the patriarchy? The matriarchy yelling at men to get out there and make a buck, drive a nice car, pass women up for promotion, and step on people at all costs. to feed 'the family' - you yourselves are sending mixed messages
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Aside from anecdotes, what proof do you have that "you women" like bad boys? None of my relatives or friends do/did. I never dated any. Had a lot of dates.
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Dear Ignatius Reilly,
I'm sorry that the woman you loved doesn't love you. That is really sad. But I'm not sure how it is relevant to millions of women's experiences being sexually assaulted by men. Not consensually, not while asking those men to "make a buck". The fact that you are looking at this through the miopic lens of one personal experience of yours rather than listening to what many many women are saying about their experiences of (again) assault, is revealing.
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One of the key points Ignatius made about the woman he describes is that she comes from an abusive background. Women who have been abused by their own fathers or brothers physically, emotionally, and/or sexually, and witnessed their mothers being abused, often are drawn to the 'bad boys' because they consciously or unconsciously seek the same sort of relationship they have grown up in. Trust me on that one, I know of what I speak. I followed that pattern in my youth, dating bad boys who inevitably turned violent, until I realized that the problem was me -- because I was choosing these losers. I stopped dating for many years, until I had grown enough in self-esteem and wisdom to make better choices. Unfortunately not all women grow out of it, and many abuse victims do continue to replicate the family pattern. So not all women will be drawn to 'bad boys" -- those who come from loving, respectful homes will be repulsed by them -- but those who have grown up with that behavior will see it as normal and gravitate toward the only image of what a man is that they have ever known.
6
1. Stop assaulting women
2. Believe women
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And what about women who falsify rape allegations as a revenge tactic? And please don't tell that it never happens. As an attorney who worked on such a case - and have read about others - I know it happens.
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But does it happen as often as men rape women? No. Not by a long shot. Sorry.
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1. I can't "stop" because I've never assaulted any woman in my life, nor ever wanted to. Nor has any man who is a friend of mine. Nor I think have most men.
2. I believe people I think are telling the truth. There is no automatic in that, with men or women.
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Dear Roxane,
"Dear Men: It's You, Too". No, it isn't (if "it" there means sexual harassment and rape, the two charges that have been made against You Know Who). All you will get with this pharisaical call for soul-searching is a bevy of pharisaical men pointing the finger at other men ('It's them! Not me!). You will not get the soul-searching you want (or pharisaically pretend to want). Harvey Weinstein's (as yet alleged) actions are monstrous, and yes, all men (including this one) are flawed, imperfect, deviant, but we are not all harassers and rapists. That is the logic of the lynch mob.
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The article didn't imply that all men are harassers and rapist. It suggests that men who are NOT harassers and rapists wake up to the reality of harassment and rape and take on some responsibility for combating it.
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No, not all of you are harassers and rapists, but an awful lot of you have looked the other way when harassment was happening.
Sometimes, you may not have noticed it, other times you did, but did nothing. I believe most men will not stand by and watch outright rape, but inappropriate comments, belittling, ogling, or overly familiar (but not too blatant) touching will often be ignored. And how many times have you seen a woman get a coveted promotion, assignment, etc., and thought "she's probably gotten that because she's sleeping with the boss" or something along those lines?
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Dear John. You missed the point.
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Its the men women choose powerful and selfish. It's always been about women wanting. ti tame the bad boy. Good men bore women to tears. Lets not pick pn "men', let,sdeconstruct the choices. women make.
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tom, I'm sorry you don't know any good women. I can assure you that you're mistaken about "women".
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This article is wrong on so many levels but especially in its casual mass shaming. I for one am not a man who has consciously “hurt women in ways great and small.., or “cornered women in narrow office hallways or made lewd comments to co-workers or refused to take no for an answer or worn a woman down by guilting her into sex and on and on...” or “witnessed violence or harassment and looked the other way or laughed it off or secretly thought a woman was asking for it.” (And nor personally do I first hand know of any man who is guilty of these crimes.)
Why should I atone for or admit to sins I have never committed? There are undoubtedly some nasty characters out there with sociopathic tendencies but they would seem to be a relatively small minority unless I move in an unusually restricted social orbit.
Don’t blame a whole gender for the crimes of a few. Blatant misandry is no more defensible than misogyny.
5
Recently in my city a 97 year old woman was raped by a man who broke into her nursing home.
Children are routinely sexually abused by family members and strangers.
Girls and boys.
THINK BEFORE YOU POST.
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