Lots of parallels between California and Catalonia - California too only receives back a small portion of what it pays to the federal treasury. Trump's tax plan would disproportionately impact Californians by eliminating tax breaks for state, local and property taxes. CA provides a huge part of the GDP of the United States. While in the latest poll 43% of Catalonians support secession, 35% of Californians do. Abraham Lincoln said this: "“Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better.”
2
From Reporters Without Borders:
https://rsf.org/en/news/rsf-publishes-report-respect-media-catalonia
Interesting reading on the state of democratic freedom in Catalonia, who is responsible and one of the many reasons why intervention is inevitable.
1
First of all: a big 'thank you' to the United Nations Human Rights for today's statement.
I think splitting Catalonia from Spain would be a win-win situation.
May sound a bit awkward but, in my opinion that would be the best for both sides. Would be a wake up call for the rest of Spain; as one of our main economical engines would depart. That would bring us closer and would make us more aware of the problems ahead of us. Perhaps that would be the trigger for the wake up call we need to start cleaning our dirty laundry, i.e. our politicians.
As for Catalonia it would be an end to their longing for independence since 1714.
Would they initially both struggle? Sure. But "No pain, no gain!"
Having friends and family on both sides of the Catalan border makes me see the perspective in a different way as most of you. I can tell you something, it is not funny.
2
A rally of a dozen Spanish nationalists does not merit equal time with the mobilizations of millions. By the Times' implicit standard, every news article that includes a photo supplied by the Defense department should also include a picture of small groups of peace activists protesting military facilities in rural Nebraska. If that is your standard, honor it.
1
My wife and I relocated to Barcelona from New York in 2009. Our first week, an American school parent who is Spanish, warned us that Catalans love to make noise, but adding that it's only noise. A couple weeks later another Spanish friend told me over coffee that Barcelona is small. He wasn't talking about geography which you can extrapolate to include both Catalunya and Spain. As an expat living in Barcelona going on 9 years, these statements put perspective on a daily grind.
No one opposes a democratic vote, but pro-independence politicians would throw kerosene on a cup of McDonald's coffee if they could. Their modus operandi is inflaming public opinion in favor of reelection versus rolling up their sleeves and making Catalunya great again. Even the referendum, there's a right way to hold a legal, peaceful vote like Scotland did in 2014 and, sadly, a wrong way which will happen on Sunday. The score will be a draw, -1, -1.
Asked whether Catalunya is a nation, Inés Arrimadas of the Citizens party of Catalunya said this week, "Spain is a diverse, plural country in which Catalunya has a leading role and its own space within a common goal." She speaks on behalf of the silent majority who believe in a united Spain. Although my passport says the United States and I live in Catalunya, I'm proud to say, "Yo soy español i també t'estimo, Catalunya."
7
Russia, Russia, Russia! Why is the NYT community not seeing Putin's agenda in this movement?
3
My wife and I relocated to Barcelona from New York in 2009. Our first week, an American school parent who is Spanish, warned us that Catalans love to make noise, but adding that it's only noise. A couple weeks later another Spanish friend told me over coffee that Barcelona is small. He wasn't talking about geography which you can extrapolate to include both Catalunya and Spain. As an expat living in Barcelona going on 9 years, these statements put perspective on a daily grind.
No one opposes a democratic vote, but pro-indepence politicians would throw kerosene on a cup of McDonald's coffee if they could. Their modus operandi is inflaming public opinion in favor of reelection versus rolling up their sleeves and making Catalunya great again. Even the referendum, there's a right way to hold a legal, peaceful vote like Scotland did in 2014 and, sadly, a wrong way which will happen on Sunday. The score will be a draw, -1, -1.
Asked whether Catalunya is a nation, Inés Arrimadas of the Citizens party of Catalunya said this week, "Spain is a diverse, plural country in which Catalunya has a leading role and its own space within a common goal." She speaks on behalf of the silent majority who believe in a united Spain. Although my passport says the United States and I live in Catalunya, I'm proud to say, "Yo soy español i també t'estimo, Catalunya."
14
Catalonian separatist have won the media war since a renowned paper like the NYT take sides by the rebels against the constitutional order and the will of the majority of Spaniards.
I expected a much more rigorous analysis from the NYT.
11
Yes, I agree, and we have to wonder if both Mr Raphael Minder of the NYT and Sam Jones of The Guardian hava a hidden agenda given their lop sided views or are they somehow benfiting personally from the situation?
5
So much for EU democracy.
Will Spain crush these people with brute force?
The UK was so wise to pull out of Europe.
1
Ignorance is now in vogue in the United States!
4
I thought nationalistic government based on tribalism was what the world wanted to do away with ... hence the EU. How is Catalonia for the Catalans different than German for the Germans ... and its tragic consequences. An independent Catalonia will never be accepted by the EU if for no other reason than the precedent it would set.
6
Funny all this nationalism declares itself pro European Union. So they would willingly subject themselves to a greater union, paying funds to the EU to pay for the poorest regions and seeking stronger political ties at European level. Those provincial nationalist believe Independence will make them better and richer like a jihadist believes he will have 17 virgins waiting for him in paradise.
Also worth noting how you Americans defend your constitution like if it is the Gospel, and yet you thrash mine because it does not allow a minority in a region to vote without the rest of the country to have a say? How about California seceding from the US because they don't like your right to bear arms amendment and decide they do not abide by it? or because they don't like Trump? Wouldn't you ask them to seek an amendment to your constitution in Washington rather than locally discarding with your constitution? You fought a civil war to keep your country united but we can't take a regions government to court for breaking the law that is the root of our democracy? I guess most of you are Russian minions, otherwise, shame on you!
13
The Catalans I know would indeed like for Catalonia to be part of the EU. They are fully aware that this would entail transferring money to other European states via the EU, and that they may not necessarily be "better off" in a strictly material sense. They just rather send their money to Brussels than to Madrid. At least in Brussels they will have a voice.
But, in Madrid they DO have a voice! They have the same right to a voice as I do, living in Castilla LaMancha. The problem is, they have so many political parties in Cataluña that in the last elections none of them had enough votes for representation. Well, except for Ciutatans, who are more right-wing, but I assume you are referring to the left-wing separatists who are making themselves out to be martyrs?
4
Tranquilo, Quique!
You had me until the end... we're on the same team, here, but I am not a minion.
Do anything to preserve the neoliberal ideology, wow.
Spain too must be struggling with the E.U. so now it wants to divide to be able to stay in E.U. if rest of Spain can't.
There are many ways to skin a cat. Spain is showing Catalans its iron fist, reminiscent of Franco's time.
There have been some comments about Scotland having a referendum. Scotland being the co-founder nation of the United Kingdom, alongside England.
The UK showed another tack. Scots were given promises which have never been kept ( equal partner, modern Home Rule, federalism, Maximum Devolution).
We were fed a diet of fake news from a heavily slanted print and broadcast media. Indeed the BBC's main political journalist appeared on the evening news and told a direct (and easily rebutted) lie. Every negative of self government was heavily promoted, every positive buried.
David Cameron called in every favour, so we had a whole parade of world leaders( including Obama) telling us, the independence THEY enjoyed, would somehow be bad for us.
Is allowing a referendum which poisons the water, better than not being allowed one at all? The Spanish will soon find out. I think they will come to regret their belligerent conduct.
1
Remind you that Scotland only received some autonomy and devolution in 1998. Catalonia obtained much wider autonomy 20 years earlier, controlling pretty much everything: Health, police, education (which is in Catalan only). And they present themselves as the oppressed party in this conflict. Catalan separatists make the UKIP look moderate and thoughtful in comparison!
2
What is happening in Catalonia is not a democratic movement, is completely the opposite. There is a country constitution voted by all the Spaniards including the Catalans, and a congress in Madrid where the Catalans like any other Spaniard are represented. The regional government of Catalonia, doesn't have the competence to decide unilaterally about the territorial integrity of Spain in the same way than Albany doesn't have the competence to decide to invade Mexico. I know well Spain and Catalonia and What's happening is a very twisted PR campaign in one side, where totalitarian strategies are disguised as democratic will. In the other side, Madrid, just incompetence and very damaged credibility of the Spanish Government. The truth is the spine of Catalan nationalism is Xenophobia, and Hate its what it breeds. Therefore it is irrational, so very difficult to find a solution through dialog or democratic protocols. Europe has to be very alert with this situation, the nationalism that broke its society last century is back in its doorsteps...and its very contagious.
19
At least a rigorous comment
6
The Constitution is the will of the majority non Catalonians imposing their will on the minority Catalonians. This is standard practice of 'democratic' countries the world over which is really legalized human rights abuse.
Since it is impossible for the Catalonians to ever get support from the majority Spanish people to secede, the Catalonians should go ahead and vote for independence anyway and establish controls at their border, make laws that override the Spanish legislation as long as it does not harm Spain's security.
The Catalonians will then be living as a pseudo independent country, like Taiwan. Madrid should not do anything to harm them economically as this will hurt them as well and even push them to be even more aggressive to pursue outright independence.
What you are saying is imprecise. In democracy, decisions are taken on regard of the will of the majority of a group defined in its constitution. Without Constitution you don't have democracy. In this case, the group are the Spaniards not the Catalans. in democracy Catalans cannot decide unilaterally this type o decision in the same way than I cannot organize a referendum only involving my family to send troops to irak. this decision involves me but also al my fellow Americans. For this this decisions are taken it in congress not in my kitchen or in Washington square or in that case in the streets of Barcelona.
5
I would like to remind my fellow Americans how things ended up in this country the last time secession was brought up. I really do not think the same will happen in my native Spain, but certainly it will not be thanks to the prudence of Catalan separatists.
My maternal grandmother had three siblings executed by Franco's forces at the beginning of the Civil War. She was Castilian. The situation in my family is, by no means and unfortunately, far from unique. Can you imagine how deeply insulted the average Spaniard feels when they hear the equation Spain=Franco?
Catalonia has been an integral, indeed forming, part of Spain since its very beginning. Ferdinand brought it, together with Aragon, to his marriage to Isabella of Castille. This does not mean, I guess, that things cannot change in the future but to say that Catalonia is a colony of Spain is, quite simply, ridiculous. Spain did not invade Catalonia in 1714. Some Catalans aligned themselves with the Austrias and the Bourbons won. There were Francoists in Catalonia.
(...)
13
Please note that Scotland is not a "region". it is a country in formal union with England. Scotland has its own judiciary and education systems and a Parliament with more devolved power than many equivalents. it is a little sloppy to try to bundle all geographic areas seeking independence into one convenient but inaccurate misnomer. it would be great to see this article amended to reflect this.
15
There are two approches to this, one is legal and the other is emotional. From the legal point of view, our constitution clearly states that it is not possible to hold a unilateral referendum in a given region for self-determination. Spain as a whole must vote. In this way, there isn't much the Govrnment can do but comply with the constitution. On the other hand, there is the emotional, hard to handle and easy to manipulate. While it is true that Catalonia accounts for 18% od Spain's gnp, it is not less true that it is the most indebted region- 35% of their gnp. They could never pay their pensions and other SS benefits without the common Spanish Social Security Fund
9
A balanced summary, apart from two points. 1. The "foreign journalist" who left the press briefing by the Catalan police chief was in fact Spanish. He continually interrupted the conference, unable to wait until the officer repeated his comments in Spanish, so he walked out. 2. The insults received by Catalans and their politicians on a regular basis by the Spanish press is so institutionalized and "normal" that it goes unreported. Imagine American minorities receiving racial epithets in the mainstream media on a regular basis and the political powers chuckling in agreement.
The Spanish state is dedicating all the resources at its command to preventing a democratic referendum, including physical force and intimidation, and violating basic democratic rights such as freedom of expression and assiociation in the process. What it has been unable to do in seven years is come up with a single political response. There are very good reasons indeed why the Catalans are on the verge of independence.
5
Catalan independence is not legitimate because it is predominantly based on left wing sentiment, not ethnic nationalism. These separatists only want independence because they believe the rest of Spain isn't equal enough or friendly to minorities. The rest is window dressing.
If their nationalism was based truly on identity and history, there might be something to talk about. Until then, the Spanish army should march through the streets of Barcelona to send the separatists a clear message: You deserve nothing.
2
The conundrum rests in two areas: the Spanish Constitution which was voted and approved by the people in 1978, speaks to the indivisibility of the state and the armed forces duty to maintain that territorial integrity. This is juxtaposed with the Constitutionally enshrined concept of self-governing regions. So far, OK. Now, add to the mix that the central government in Madrid is the direct heir to the old fascist regime of the military dictatorship (1936-1975) sworn to the greater power and authority of the central government - AKA Madrid - and a deeply corrupt Catalan administration which wants to avoid criminal prosecution for illegal enrichment and contracts fraud and you have a volatile, dangerous scenario. Finally, while Catalonia has a long, rich history, it has never been an independent country, rather it has been a part of former Spanish kingdoms... so there really is no historical precedent for independence, unlike Scotland. The bottom line, have Spaniards as a whole vote to amend the Constitution to allow for the right to vote on self-determination, then allow the Catalans to vote on their self-determination, the problem of a possible (violent) military solution (a sad, long and bloody part of Spanish history) is removed and everyone has a say in the outcome of their country's fate, both Spaniards (writ large) and Catalans. Unilateralism can't work and may just lead to a possibly noble yet awful sacrifice.
7
Catalonia has never been an independent country, before joining what is today Spain it was a vassal state of Aragon, another Spanish region. For the last 500 years its history has been identical to Spain's. it went along with all the up's and downs of the last 500 years Joining in conquest of the Americas and joining in all the economic ups and downs. It was not the only region o suffer under franc or have limits placed on its language . Most of its so called uniqueness is way overstated. All Catalans speak Spanish and food trends in Spain have long stopped being regional.
The current thinking of being a net contributor to the State and not receiving a similar amount of State investment is mostly a "made up story"by the current pro independent parties. The financial blame game as any observer of the issue can tell you was made up by the then ruling CIU party to cover up for its own mismanagement of Catalonia's finances.
Catalonia, far from being isolated economically, from the rest of Spain benefits from being Spain's most international city. where companies who want to do business in Spain often set up to serve the whole country. Even under Franco Catalonia was a preferred investment are, it was in Catalonia where Franco set up Spain's large industrial investment of the era,today the SEAt Volkswagen plant and research center.
its the Catalan government who has ignored court ruling based on the constitution and laws it itself agreed to and help draft
.
11
I winced reading this story at the constant references to "Madrid" feeling or doing things. It is not "Madrid" that is attempting to shut down the referendum, it is the Rajoy government. If that government had simply permitted the referendum to proceed it is very likely, based on multiple polling prior to the attempt to suppress the referendum, that Catalans would have voted against secession. A real debate would also have aired issues from which Rajoy's party and other parties allied with it wish to divert attention.
2
(...)
Madrilenos are as taxed, if not more, as are Catalans, and the Community of Madrid also gives more to the state than it receives. It happens here too. Alabama and New Mexico benefit more from federal largess than Massachusetts or California.
But this is not a confrontation between Catalonia and Spain. This is a confrontation amongst Catalans (this, you understand, the secessionists will not tell you). The Catalan government chose to flout the Spanish Constitution and the Catalan “Estatut” to force feed the Catalan parliament laws that would make this referendum possible and, presumably, the declaration of independence that, apparently, will automatically follow. To do this they ignored the rights of the representatives of the rest of Catalans for example giving them two hours to present amendments to the law.
Spain is not alone in rejecting referendums of independence. Italy in 2015 and Germany in 2016 (countries that, the last time I checked, are well-behaved democracies) told their respective separatist movements that such referendums are against the law. The difference is that, while in Italy and Germany the separatists chose to obey the law and continue doing politics, the Catalan secessionists decided to stage what amounts to a coup d’etat. I wonder what Italy or Germany would have done in Spain’s case, and I have to think that their governments would have acted to protect democracy and the rights of every single citizen, just like Spain is doing.
10
I've read every comment below with considerable interest since I knew nothing about this issue before reading this article. It strikes me that the anti-independence arguments are either "IT'S THE LAW!" or "RUSSIA!", whereas the pro-independence arguments make some logical points about their heritage and the burdens of taxation. I'd like to hear some arguments against independence that aren't just "it's the law so shut up". I don't think that argument is going to resonate so well to an American audience who went against the law when they rebelled against Great Britain.
Catalonia is not the richest of the "comunidades" in Spain. Spain gather the money of this comunidades and gives more money to the poorer ones. Is obvious that a poor comunidad should give more money than the money it receive, but is normal richs ones give more. Not only Catalonia, also Madrid is the same rich 20% PIB and give more than it receive. So the arguments are wrong, and they dont have the right to be independence because just the 40% did vote for independence parties last referendum and with this 40% the want to declare independence under a referendum that havent got the guarantees since there is not campaign for "No" Vote, jus the "Yes" Vote si is going to be "Yes",because No parties are calling the people not to go to referendum. So this is not a normal Referendum, is a theater, since is not regular the result wont be a reflection of catalonian society, but even that this 40% will declare independence
3
Please, American readers. Be aware that this is NOT a left-right issue.
3
Looks like the government in Madrid is making a big, big mistake with their heavy-handed tactics which seem almost designed to unite all Catalans against it.
They should let the vote proceed while stating that it would have no legal effect. Lincoln made sure that the South would commit the first acts of violence. He was a crafty politician. The attack on Fort Sumter united the North while having doing nothing to unite the South. Western Virginia seceded from Virginia and the border states stayed in the Union.
Those who don't know history...
2
"Governments derive their just powers from the free consent of the governed." the U. S. Declaration of Independence, 1776.
Spain; take note! It's the right way to go. The Prince of Peace forbids war against one's own people to impose a unitary, involuntary, no-exit regime!
You are making Spain into a permanent prison State. Shame on you! You are Europeans! Behave like the sensible and intelligent people you are. Exercise good will toward one another, and seek cordial relations with an independent Catalonia. They have a right to independence!
Although I am forced to admit that President Lincoln declared war on this very foundational principle of the United States itself in 1861 by his invasion, war, occupation, and subjugation of the Confederate States of America, which had sought peaceful independence from the voluntary union of States it had joined. The US did not practice what it preached, and it was founded on this principle.
And Europe or the EU remain silent. Is this an internal Spanish matter, as the Brexit vote in Britain?
This is exactly what Russia wants.
5
Manuel says : "The secessionists in Catalonia are a para-fascist and supremacist movement that want to create a monolingual state. Catalonia has the most ample autonomy among the European regions. The Spanish Constitution has a great system to protect the human rights, the territorial differences, but doesn't allows the secession."
The only truth coming from this text is that Spanish Constitution doesn't allow secession. The rest of it are clichés.
1rst. Independentism is not a matter of xenophobia or supremacism. Is freedom, dignity, self-ruling? Whas supremacism the groundd for American people to fight for independence in 1776?
Obviusly independentists are not parafascists. But it's curious that people who want to vote are treated as fascists and people (from Spanish state!!!! whit his long history of putsch and dictatorship) ) who forbid votation are so-called democrats.
2nd. Catalan Republic won't be a monolingual state. Spanish, Catalan, English, and French are often used, and so will be kept.
3rd. Yes, Catalonia "had" a large amount of autonomy .... that is being banned by the centralist interest of Madrid lobbies.
4th. If it walks like a duck, flies like a duck and speaks like a duck .... obviously is a duck. Even if you say is a hen. If Catalonia (and Basque Country) feel themselves as a nation, votes as a nation, acts as a nation, is defeated as a foreign nation, and keeps on wanting to be a nation.... is a nation, not "another autonomous region"
5
Catalonia doesn't feel as a nation. Some Catalans feel that. The speech has been dominated by the secessionist and separatist because Spain has been very, very respectful regarding the different country lands, but Catalonia always has been a part of Spain. The secessionist have been installed in a speech of hate, the don't respect the democratic law (only if they obtain benefits from the law), and the Spanish democracy -like any other democracy in the civilised world- has to grant the respect of the law. Otherwise it would be the jungle, the chaos, as the secessionist want. To sink Spain, even if they sink also together Spain.
It appears that Madrid has not learned the lessons of the past. Nor do the so-called leaders of Spain read the news, for we live in 'interesting times' when many irrelevant aspects of the status quo are being called into question.
The authoritarian and thoroughly undemocratic response of Rajoy towards the legitimate organisation of a referendum for independence of Catalonia is reprehensible, worthy of another 'model' of democracy, Turkey. I sincerely hope that Madrid's repression will be a Parthian victory for Spain as a whole.
1
I think this is a textbook case of political irrationality. Mr. Rajoy, the Spanish Prime Minister, has no option but to defend the Spanish Constitution which does not allow regional referendums. He has tried to deflect the political problem by having recourse to the Spanish judiciary, but the increasing toughness of the Catalan independentists is forcing him to adopt also tougher measures, so increasing the tension.
The main goal of the independents is clear: to present the referendum as an democratic expression of the people's will that is impeded by force by the heated Spanish government.
I am not convinced that, if a free referendum could be held in Catalonia, the majority of Catalans would support independence. Catalans are serious, rational people and they know well that an independent Catalonia is not viable. For starters, an independent Catalonia would exit the European Union immediately and would be economically and politically isolated with disastrous economic consequences. It could ask for membership but its demand should be voted by all the 27 member States and it is dubious that some of them at least, like a disheartened Spain or France, which has also a part of Catalonia in its territory, would vote yes.
Inside Spain, a angry divorce would be very problematic. How to re-establish borders, how to cut communication networks such as railways, to introduce new trade barriers, etc.?
7
I'm a permanent Spanish resident; I have lived and worked in law firms in both Barcelona and Madrid.
The Spanish Constitution of 1978 allows and establishes the manner in which the Autonomous Region of Catalonia could separate. They are not following that route. Now, that is in part because the route to do so is not easy and the Spanish government can impede it with certain tactics. But that is the law. The Constitution of 1978 is like Ulysses having his hands bound to the mast precisely because of situations like this.
The results of an illegal referendum are illegal and non-binding, regardless of opinions on whether or not they should be legal. There exists a legal avenue as there does for Scotland and Brexit; this is not it. I have great sympathy for the average Catalan (who, despite common perception, is not universally in favor of independence) and less for the far left. Let us follow the law.
9
The question is if the vote to secede is successful, will other parts of Spain want their independence as well? Or in other counties like Italy where Tirol also has spoken of independence? We saw this this happen in Ex-Yugoslavia after Slovenia did the same and it, sadly, lead to war.
I just spent the weekend in Barcelona and observed many silent peaceful protests to leave, but I also saw that the supporters to remain are pressured into silence.
5
Tirol is not a country. its separate identity is only because that land was a war gain by Italy in World War One. The secession movement there is not for independence, but rather to be reunified with Austria.
Slovenia was a separate republic within Yugoslavia, and its people overwhelmingly supported independence. Their "war' of secession lasted just 10 days.
"... but I also saw that the supporters to remain are pressured into silence..." This is the key. The cruelty of the pressure on the supporters of being part of Spain. Unbearable.
Spain is a country made up of countries. That's the way it's been since it's kingdoms were unified into what we know now as Spain. The central government could have handled this better undoubtedly but the Catalan government has been lying to its people about the level of "repression " from Madrid and about the wonderful advantages of being a sovereign nation even though it will be excluded from the EU. There is a Constitution and consequently a rule of law. Without it, there is chaos. If you seek more autonomy frrom the central government, then fight for it through political means but respect the rule of laws. How many Americans would support Texas' bid for secession?
8
Actually, I bet a huge proportion of both Texans and Americans would support Texas going off on its own.
The European Union should make it very, very clear that any local region of an EU country which chooses to leave that country will be excluded from being a member of the EU. This is not like Scotland, which is a separate country (They have a separate teams in the European Cup and other international sports events.) and part of the United Kingdom. Should Scotland, Northrn Ireland or Wales wish to remain in the EU after BREXIT they should be allowed to do so.
5
Have you thought that maybe we do not want to be part of a europe which has been unable to handle the refugees, unable to distribute wealth and unable to even address the political issue between catalans ans spaniards?
"he European Union should make it very, very clear that any local region of an EU country which chooses to leave that country will be excluded from being a member of the EU"
There is absolutely no legal basis in EU law to say that.
Exactly. These are two completely different situations. However, I would not define Scotland as a country because of its sports teams! It has a long history of kings and queens, wars with England and invasions by England. None of this holds true in Cataluña. They have never been their own kingdom, and were merely a principality under the Kingdom of Aragon.
I am not a Spanish citizen and hold no authority to rigorously debate on this issue but as an observer I would like to share my views.
This is not sending a good message to the world. In today's world there are bigger problems to deal with. A separation of any kind on the grounds of mere political issues should be avoided. I was in Andalusia during the Barcelona attacks and saw ppl all around Spain praying for Barcelona and sending in help from different parts of Spain. Until now I didn't realise that there is a different mindset based on regionalism that even when just a month has passed the biggest issue has been forgotten.
The autonomy that currently exists within the state is much higher compared to states of other countries. This should have fulfilled the ambitions of those needing much more credits. Giving an example of India, I would say that there are separatists, issues in a country with 29 states, 1800 languages and a cultural diversity you can never witness anywhere else but there is unity amongst all citizens when it comes to a country.
4
What a difference in culture from the UK who welcomed Scotland to make their own decision without fear or intimidation! But then, it is hard to give up a main source of income when unable or unwilling to meet the challenge.
1
Catalonia's push to leave has a long history. After Spain became a democracy in 78, the Basque region had a very strong movement to separate from Spain and was the home of their terrorist group ETA, who were killing politicians, people in the army and police stations. They were a very wealthy region in Spain (and the South the poorest) and subsequently negotiated a privileged agreement with the central government in which they only had to provide some money for the army, the embassy and border control. They are otherwise autonomous, now the region is considered the Basque Country and still the richest region in Spain. At that time Catalonia, Valencia and Balearic Islands were also wealthy regions and became donors to the poor Southern regions. Thirty-seven years later, Catalonia, Valencia and Balearic Islands have become impoverished and the Southern regions have become wealthier but their tax money is still flowing to the South and other poor regions around Madrid. The agreement with the Basque country has never been re-negotiated. They are treated separately in the Constitution and the tax system itself has never been revisited and the PP doesn’t appear to have any plans to do so.
I am an American and spend considerable time in Spain. While I don’t personally favor Catalonia separating, especially when the country is just starting to recover economically, the grievance needs to be understood in the proper historical context.
2
The tax arrangement with the Basque provinces and Navarra dates to 1878 and the end of the Carlist Wars. During Franco's dictatorship they continued in two provinces that supported his rebellion, Alava and Navarra. Spain's Constitution of 1978 recognizes the historic "cupo vasco" in all three Basque provinces and Navarra. The Catalan regional government was offered the same deal but refused it at the time. The reasoning of the Catalan nationalists was a) we don't want to be the tax collectors, and b) we will probably come out better in the general Spanish system. That fateful decision by nationalist Jordi Pujol was taken before the arrival of the Spanish socialists to power and the full development of the welfare state. Spain, in its current iteration, is substantially more expensive to maintain.
2
i favor independence since i was 15, many decades ago. At that time we were at most 10 percent. Now this percentahe has grown to the point that we are mainstream. It is not about economy. It is about dignity, for our culture, for our language, for our identity. As simple and as complex to understand as that. And this will never change, no matter how much we are repressed. We are the children of a brutal dictatorship, left untouched by the democracies who liberated Europe but "forgot" Spain. Here we are, still carrying on with our will to recover our dignity. No matter how poor or how rich we become, in or out of a useless european union, in our out of the galaxy. a country who punishes corruption, free education, total integration of newcomers, universal health care, full protection of vulnerable people, protection of our language and culture. These are the pillars of our society, and pro-independence will continue to work on them, even if we become just 10 percent again. Dignity.
2
Madrid has hurt its own motives by been obstructionist and heavy-handed. Catalan pays around 8% of its GDP out to other regions that support the central government making them richer than it by comparison. (Not 8% of its taxes, 8% of GDP!) Madrid is also obstructing projects such as the Mediterranean rail route which would help Catalonia unless it goes via Madrid (which is not by the Mediterranean) - a decision that baffles even the EU. If your government gives you a steep tax bill and then doesn't even look out for your interests there is a pretty big chance you'd get angry.
1
This is a blatant power play by the Catalan left to seize power and destroy the unity of yet another NATO country. They are playing right into Russia's hands.
What will they do when the Barcelona airport is closed? Bye-bye tourists, who are vital to the economy of Barcelona.
How will they create their own power grid? How will they export or import any goods if Madrid were to impose a blockade? They will get no support from the rest of Spain or from the EU and they will not be able to go it alone economically. Perhaps Venezuela and Russia will send them oil.
19
It’s worth mentioning too that the biggest instigator of Secession is the CPU party, a communist party very connected to Russia. Anti NATO, anti EU and anti Spain.
1
The nationalists are winning the battle of media, they work hard on it, that is clear to me...nobody talks about how the rule that allows the referendum to be held in Catalonia, produced by the Catalan parlament was illegally promulgated (not respecting the quorum and approved ilegally) . This is about respecting the law...Neither their own estatute is respected.
Anyway this would be like the Brexit vote...a mess and almost impossible..Would your like to give up your rights as a Spaniard? That should be the question to be asked....
14
From Sephardic Jews to Muslim Moors whose culture they so thoroughly destroyed, and then Basques and now Catalans, will the Spanish rulers ever learn that they cannot force people to their way of living and thinking.
4
Sadly, Spain knows quite a bit about the law. When Spain controlled the Americas, the king would proclaim the same laws over and over --to no effect. The law, in the final analysis, has value only when communities and the people have their will respected and when government works for them --that famous government of, by, and for the people.
The Spanish government long ago stopped being of Catalonia, for Catalonia, and by Catalonia --instead, the central government has proclaimed and declaimed to little effect, as it did when the King commanded its colonies. And as it was then, delegitimized, obfuscating and prohibiting the people from exercising their will, the Spanish government shows its impotence and irrelevance. It's time to welcome Catalonia to the community of Nations.
9
Neither Madrid nor Catalonia seem to be handling this very well. Claiming the vote will be "binding" exacerbates the legality problem. Using police force to hinder the vote hardens the opposition to Spanish unity. This looks like a downward spiral where both sides lose.
7
The catalan independence movement is trying for years make everyone believe that Catalonia is under some kind of "oppression" from Spain, when Catalonia controls education, police, justice and healthcare departments. There is not oppression. The ties with Spain are too deep to be broken.That's why they can't get international support...plus that only will open the door to the Vasque community and Galician to pursue their independence as well.
20
Basque are politically and culturally independent already. Catalans are not claiming "oppression." Catalunya has
A different language
A different culture
A different literature
A different ideology
So, what they want is political autonomy. It's not complicated. There is no violence - it's a peaceful embrace of their own culture
1
The fact that Spanish government is willing to suppress liberties to stop a referendum vote that they can simply ignore has given the Catalans all they need to either after the referendum or without it walk the path to an Unilateral Declaration of Independence. This is not an unusual thing in human history, is just a XXI century story on how a nation state is born. Some of the comments forget that there is no right or wrong here but political will and the power of the people, and it looks to me that Catalans have the people. From 14% to 50% of independence sympathizers is a failure on Madrid and a Success for the Catalan government
4
I've been to Spain many times. It's obvious that Catalonia is a powerhouse economically, culturally and politically and much of the rest of Spain - outside of Madrid - is poor and provincial.
This is similar to if we only had New York state supporting Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana.
It makes perfect sense Catalonia wants out.
We should support their right to self-determination.
5
That's not at all an accurate analogy. Spain has many wealthy areas besides Catalonia and Madrid. For example, Navarre, La Rioja, Valencia, the Basque Country, etc. Catalonia is in fact only the 4th wealthiest part of Spain. The actual analogy is if the US had California, New York, Illinois, and Texas propping up many less wealthy states--and that's exactly what we do have in the US! We should absolutely support Catalonia-s right to self determination--but only if it's done legally through negotiation and an actual democratic vote rather than an illegal referendum.
14
Valencia, Seville, Santander, Zaragoza, Bilbao, Córdoba, Pamplona, Palma, Malaga, etc. poor (or, for that matter, provincial)? There are few places more provincial in Spain than Catalonia outside of Barcelona. And Barcelona's so-called cosmopolitanism is the superficial veneer of the global tourism run-amok that followed from the '92 summer Olympics (read any travel guides from before '92 and you'll see how consistently it was described as the Spanish Manchester and the like: gray, drab, dull). Finally, Barcelona wouldn't be half the city it is, or Catalonia as (relatively) rich, if Spanish tariff barriers hadn't protected Catalan industry from English, French, Belgian, etc. competition since the 19th century, ensuring it privileged access to a much bigger market than Catalonia could ever have provided. I love Barcelona (NOT mostly in favor of secession btw) and am in favor of a properly negotiated referendum, with a real debate, but this is tin-pot demagoguery (on both sides, including the PP's Rajoy, who happens to be Galician). And I've listened to far too-much third-rate supremacist talk from Catalan radicals to take seriously starry-eyed claims for them: already in '84 I heard a university professor in Barcelona say, without cracking a smile, that he believed Catalans had bigger heads than other Spaniards: even then, thankfully, I had the equanimity to point out that Cervantes, Velázquez and Ramón y Cajal had done quite nicely, thank you, with their smaller heads.
57
Completely agree. There is a lot of misinformation - fueled, of course, by the nationalistic forces that want us to believe that Spain is still Franco's Spain, simply because it is good for them. The idea that Franco suppressed Catalonia at a higher degree that he did other parts of Spain is not supported by history, it is nationalistic propaganda. So is the fact that Catalonia is simply superior to the rest of of the country, which is the reason why they are their economic engine. While Catalonia might have been forbidden the use of Catalan, other parts of Spain simply did not have schools. Large portions were purposely left illiterate by the regime. Their industry were protected from competition, to the loss of the rest of Spain who had to pay far higher prices for everything. Nationalistic movements are most often manipulative, highly biased and irrational. This is no exception.
3
Madrid tries to stop independence vote.
Let that sink in for a minute.
Democracy is about resecting the will of the people. If Catalan independence is a bad idea, one should fight against it with arguments in support of a NO vote.
To deny a vote is a losing proposition, whatever the Spanish Constitution says. Just think of all the Laws that were legal until they were overturned. Slavery, child labor, women' right to vote, right to unionize, etc...
In a Democracy, the will of the people is sovereign. That's why there are some 20 amendments to the US Constitution, and that every Democracy's Constitution is a living document, amended as society evolves. That's what Democracy is all about. Madrid is on the wrong side of History in this debate.
14
The problem with your theory is that a majority can be tyrannical. As when California approved Prop 8. The solution was to turn to a court of law and judicial review. The quality of a democracy is measured by its lawful exercise, respect for minorities and the rights of an individual. Or as Mexicans said in 1910 when trying to prevent Porfirio Diaz from winning endless reelection, "effective suffrage." Hugo Chavez and numerous other demagogues and dictators have succeeded with the referendum tactic when unbound from the law.
1
US 'allies' are filled with fake democracies. They all abuse their minorities. The cards are all rigged against them due to their lack of voting clout, so the Constitutions are written to favor the majority population. This is especially prevalent in Asia where very few can be called a real democracy. These governments use democracy as a charade to deceive the public. As long as the minorities are not visibly starving or subject to visible free speech abuse, the abuse on their rights for self determination stay below the radar and they suffer forever.
For these minorities perhaps they should just press on, issue their own passport and currency to force the majority governments to give them more autonomy. Dare the central governments to lock them up for peaceful protest!
You make an interesting point. The deceased Justice Antonin Scalia reached for some very specious arguments when he addressed this matter in 2006. For instance, he claimed that because the Pledge of Allegiance adopted by Congress (though not reflected in the Constitution and not made mandatory to recite by even school children according to, yes, the Supreme Court) contained a clause about the nation being "indivisible," it was thus the law of the land that secession was prohibited. He could have just as well said that because the phrase "under God" exists in the same pledge, it is therefore the law of the land that there is one god and that one god hovers over whatever states remain in the union like a communications satellite.
More in line with Spain's experience, Scalia also argued that a ban on secession was settled by the Civil War. Apparently it did not trouble Scalia that nothing in the Constitution says states rights issues can be settled by going to war with them. What it does say is that using the military against the people of the United States is a big no-no. Thus, either the people of the seceding states had already broken free, meaning secession is valid, or the War of Northern Aggression was an unconstitutional activity that cannot settle constitutional questions.
Now that my country is being run like a reality TV show, I am more interested in voting 37% of my neighbors off the island than seceding. I hope Spain finds a peaceful solution to its question, too.
3
I don't understand the atavistic obsession of national governments to keep by coercion territories and people that do not want to be part of it..
Included in my list is the United States, that conducted a war that cost 700 000 lives to that end.
If the Catalans should find out that the grass is not greener on the other side of the fence, they might well come back.
As would most likely have the South, but that is water past the bridge
3
Article forgets to mention than in the last local parliamentary elections, the independent party's called voters to make it a referendum on independence. They got 48% of the vote, therefore they lost. However, the electoral system awarded them majority of seats in parliament. They have used that majority to impose a new vote, that will not be valid as it has been declared unconstitutional. They dont care. They will then declare independence. Only one foreign government is expected to recognize the new independent Republic is Venezuela, which tells you a lot.
18
According to the Spanish Constitution, no referendum where the independence option is included is legal nor will it ever be legal. So it is not the way, as some say, this referendum was put together, it's just that the Spanish government will never allow Catalonians to become a sovereign nation, even if the great majority of its inhabitants wants it. So instead of allowing this referendum by the autonomous Catalan government and then declaring it non-binding, they are using heavy handed tactics, confiscating ballots, threatening mayors and other elected officials and arresting people left and right, as if they were criminals. It is not even certain a majority would vote for independence, but the great majority does want to exercise the right to express their opinion. The UK allowed Scotland to decide and a majority rejected independence. Canada allowed Quebec to do the same and the pro-independence forces lost. But Spain will have none of it. A dictatorial, intimidating approach is what they have chosen. Nothing good can come out of it.
10
Canada (the federal government) does not "allow'' Quebec (a provincial government) to call for a referendum vote. Quebec calls a referendum under its own power. Whether Canada will negotiate after a referendum is another story, addressed by the Clarity Act.
Even if you argue this is about money, Madrid has already overstepped.
6
From the article, the people in Catalonia are agitating for secession. They have not gotten to the point of outright declaring independence. Secession means that you are leaving someplace, but until it is decided, you remain part of that place and are subject to its laws.
4
If a comprehensive polling of Catalan citizens indicates a majority wishing cessation then why not allow a transparent and supported referendum? They have a long history that is distinct from the rest of Spain. This is not about convenience it's about identity.
Trumps support of the suppression of democracy is predictably disgusting but Spain's PM should be ashamed for showboating in the US ahead of this event. Sick and tired of how capitalism continues to subvert fair governance the is by the people, for the people.
6
Every single region on the 17 that form Spain has different histories. Any comment that claims that there are only two identities in Spain, the Catalan and the rest, is fundamentally biased.
This is one of the issues that the Spaniards are so tired of: the idea that Catalans deserve the special treatment which they have enjoyed for so many decades and that has made the nationalisms the richest regions in Spain.
So, it is not about identity, it is about money (not for all Catalans but for the few that benefit from using public funds to promote nationalism)
1
Those who cannot peacefully rebel will violently revolt. Take heed, Spain.
3
One of the most intolerable aspects of this constitutional crisis is the way the political extremes define it. There is a substantial segment of Catalans who would like a different solution than what is offered by the binary secession plan. There are many Spaniards who would agree that the voice of Catalan voters matters. Likewise that the Spanish government has to provide a positive political program. After a decade the economic crisis is ending, and it is time to replace the energy behind the endless polarization of politics, with a search for greater consensus. New elections to the Catalan parliament and soon followed by national elections are far preferable than a preventable tragedy.
7
If Catalonia becomes independent, then what about the Basques and Galicians? Spain's greatness comes from its diversity and multicultralism, and Spaniards irrespective of their regional identities should be proud of it. Secession by Catalonia only weakens Spanish culture and identity.
34
Galicians consider themselves Spanish, see themselves as Spaniards and were always part of Spain. Franco was Galician, Rajoy is Galician and there is no question Galicians are not interested in any type of independence. Things are different when we talk about Basque, many of whom see themselves as a separate nation, just like Catalonians. So in that case, you may see a demand for a self-determination referendum, but that does not mean a majority will necessarily opt for independence, but they certainly have the right to decide for themselves. The Portuguese had to fight Spain as Spain wanted to keep Portugal after the Iberian Union ended. The Portuguese were successful, the Catalonians were defeated and the rest is history.
7
Secession certainly weakens Spanish identity, less likely Spanish culture. So what - Catalans don't take pride in "Spain's greatness", they are Catalans and not Spaniards.
Saying that Catalans don't consider themselves Spanish is a generalisation and untrue.
Nationalistic feelings have risen since Catalonia was given the right to govern it's own education system.
Spain is not dealing with historic identity but with textbook, fabricated nationalism which is why most Spanish people as well as cosmopolitan Catalonia reject it.
Yes, a legitimate referendum should be held. This one however is not the one. It is not transparent and many Catalonians are denouncing it as such. It has been organized by Puigdemont who is ruling without the popular vote. He organized it secretly behind doors, without including all the other members of the Catalonian parliament. His party is counting the votes. Who gets to vote and who doesn't? It's not clear. Etc. That's why a lot of reasonable people are protesting this referendum in Catalonia and in Spain. It's not because they are fascists as most commenters here seem to think.
21
Correct me if I am wrong - Does not Puigdemont/Junts pel Si have more of the popular vote in Catalonia than Rajoy has in Spain?
As to who counts the votes, it is normally the case that the electoral commission in a given jurisdiction will oversee the process, but this is also being attacked by the PP as members of the electoral commission are subject to arrest. So the Spanish government is attempting by its own conduct to undermine the ability of the Generalitat to act in a fully democratic manner and then gloats (Rajoy, Mendez de Vigo) that the referendum therefore lacks democratic legitimacy.
Given what we know so far about Russia's attempts to sow discord in the USA and influence our electoral process, I wonder whether similar incursions may have taken place on the Iberian Peninsula. Nothing would please the Kremlin more than to see NATO members weakened by internal divisions.
16
El Pais had an extensive article about it. Yes, the Russians are meddling and want to see a broken Spain. And a broken Europe.
19
I've been saying that to my friends and family in Catalonia. It is in the interest of Russia to destabilize the EU and create the chaos we're currently seeing in there. What upsets me so much is how such an intelligent and progressive people as the Catalonians could be duped into such self destruction. I was in Catalonia when the infamous 'vote' took place in the Parlament, and I couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing. Catalonia has always been a place of entrepreneurship and innovation. How on earth do they plan to survive as an independent nation? Yes, they are the economic motor of Spain, but what good is that if there are no markets to do business with? Do they think they'll be admitted to the EU? Of course not! First, they will have to get in line with everyone else, second, Spain will certainly block their entry. And then what? And what about the CUP? Their plans for a Catalonian Republic send chills down my spine. (and of course, they are anti EU as instructed by their Russian masters). And without the CUP the PdeCAT cannot form any type of government. The Russian must be having a ball. In the meantime, a rich, prosperous and cultured nation will be ruined. My heart is beyond broken and I can't believe this is happening. God help us on October 1.
25
"With the support of the Spanish judiciary, Madrid has shut down websites and advertising campaigns that have promoted the vote. It has raided the offices of companies that would print the paper ballots. "
Hello Spain! Turning Communist?
Follow the UK, Canadian example, let states vote for more autonomy, even independence. Why forced the majority's will on the minority who only want more control of their own destiny? The only thing Spain should demand is Catalonia don't become a base for foreign powers that could threaten her security.
5
It is Catalonia that is turning communist.
Google the CUP, the little party that is behind this whole mess.
5
Actually the CUP is a minority party with little impact which drinks from anarchist and leftist policies.
The majority parties that lead the pro-independence movement are from centre-left (ERC) to centre-right (PDECAT).
The Communist Party in Catalonia is inside the coalition CSQEP which are not pro-independence. According to them, the main pro-independence leaders represent the oligarchs.
As a hint, most business organisations in Catalonia favour pro-independence.
7
Thank you Isabel. There was an article today in La Vanguardia on the CUP's plans for a Catalonian Republic, one of which included turning the beautiful, gothic cathedral of Barcelona into a food co-op!
6
The 20th century saw the rise of larger and larger states; it appears that the 21st century will see their disintegration. I'm not sure that is actually to anyone's benefit.
11
It is very interesting to read the disparity of attitudes in the comment section when compared to the article on the Kurdish vote for independence... Western commentators are very quick to call for the partition of poor, formerly colonized Third World countries in a very easy fashion, but are very defensive of the national integrity and sovereignty of a country when it is a Western one.
28
Great comment. Had never even considered that perspective.
3
Absolutely. A great example was a speedy recogniton of Croatia and Bosnia that certainly stoked the Balkan conflict in 90's.
2
You also can't compare the Kurds in Iraq, who have been persecuted and even gassed (as recently as the early 90s )by the central government for hundreds of years, with the Catalans, who have had almost complete autonomy and zero persecution ever since the fall of Franco and who up until the 2008 crash had only a small minority favor independence.
7
The chance that an independent Catalonia can be economically viable are not great. In fact, the first thing that Spain would do if they vote for independence would be to cut off the external supply of electricity and close the borders. After a few weeks of insufficient food and water, what would the Catalonians do in response? I have developed a long list, and it ends with the Germans (I mean the EU) lending a hand to settle the matter.
3
Homage to Catalonia and in remembrance of an edifice that a parent built out of the rubble of the Spanish Civil War.
2
Texas has a much better case for seceding that Catalonia. And it is a bad case.
8
I'd love Texas to leave
4
It's so interesting that all the NYT Picks are in favor of this illegal, unconstitutional referendum.
I know it is only natural to go with the underdog, but please look into the legality of this situation, and into how many Catalans do not agree with what the Catalan government is doing.
30
Most of the commentators have no knowledge of the Spanish constitution and I assume most did not witness the travesty that took place in the Parliament on September 6. If something like that happened in the US they would be the first to be calling for an armed intervention by the government.
15
Isabel, I completely agree with you. I'm also surprised and disappointed at the NYT picks; they demonstrate a gross lack of understanding and knowledge of the situation. Spain has a Constitution that was democratically accepted and enacted. This referendum goes against the Constitution, plain and simple. How would Americans react if a given State here in the US simply chooses to trash the US Constitution?
24
There is legality and there is legitimacy. The actions of the current Spanish government in thwarting a referendum (especially after instigating the lopsided dismantling of the 2006 deal) do not appear legitimate. (For example, confiscating ballots then pointing to a lack of ballots as a sign the referendum lacks validity.)
As to whether Catalans agree or not, that is obviously a question an unimpeded referendum would settle.
Perhaps what also motivates pro-referendum observers is a desire to see the doctrine of self-determination consolidated so that new democracies can be born without the necessity of coups or civil wars. This is said to be possible in Canada and there is frankly no legitimate reason why it should not be possible in Spain.
Especially under the umbrella of the EU and within NATO the shot-gun marriages of earlier centuries could be annulled without bloodshed, based on the notion of the freely-given consent of the governed.
The question for a (nominally) democratic state is: Do you want citizens, or do you prefer sets of permanent hostages to a majoritarian rule?
Why should Spain be subject to dismemberment by an aggrieved minority but a hypothetically independent Catalonia would be indissoluble? There is a reasonable chance that given a negotiated referendum, one that did not spend public monies on advocating union or secession, that the provinces of Barcelona and Tarragona would opt to remain. The metropolitan areas of Catalonia are more pluralistic and significantly underrepresented in the regional parliament due to electoral laws that favor rural areas. The nationalists have had forty years to reform the electoral law as every other Spanish region has done. But the nationalists are the beneficiaries of this system, their support is much greater in the hinterlands (the so-called 700 mayors = 40% of population) and have no incentive to do something that might allow the socialists and non-nationalists a fair chance. Does this sound familiar to readers of the NY Times?
7
I wonder who may be fueling the fire? Who benefits by a fractured Spain, a fractured Europe and a weakened EU? Any guesses?
11
Are you PUT-IN us on, Joe? :)
6
Catalan Independence pre-dates Purin. It's always rumbled on away from external influence. I'd say it has more to do with the rise of populist leaders not to mention other national debates - I know they paid very close attention to the Scottish referendum. I suspect the Brexit referendum was more proof that referendum's can make a difference (though they do hinge on the response...) as well as the various rumblings within the EU the past few years.
Whatever you think about the situation, it!s clear that it has been handled very poorly (and not few believe it has been intentionally done so in an attempt to hide the new cases of political corruption). The Catalonian society is very polarized and... this simply can not end well. For example, even if Catalonia claims its independence unilaterally, without the agreement of Spain, it can't be accepted in the EU.
And the worst part is that there is no possible negotiation between both sides because the Spanish government knows far too well that, if they allow this referendum to succeed, the Basque Country and (probably) Galicia would be next.
25
"even if Catalonia claims its independence unilaterally, without the agreement of Spain, it can't be accepted in the EU."
The situation is not as clear as that. There is the opinion that says that if a region of a current Member State breaks off, they would have to apply for EU membership in their own name - in which case, since the accession of a new member to the EU is an international treaty that needs to be ratified by all the other Member States, Spain could veto it.
There is the other opinion that says that there is no need for pre-accession scrutiny, since the 'new' Member State already complies with EU primary (treaties) and secondary legislation (regulations and directives). It just succeeds the rights and obligations it had as a region of the 'mother' Member State.
This was a big discussion topic during the Scottish referendum for independence.
It has never happened yet, so it's still largely a matter of legal interpretation.
The first opinion is stronger though because if Catalonia or Scotland became Member States, this would still necessitate an amendment of the EU Treaty and amendments to the founding treaties are always subject to signing and ratification by each Member State, ergo, they can veto.
So this was what Rafael Nadal was asked about last week in Prague. Politics is now even brought up in press conferences with professional tennis players. Sad.
3
I think we all need to ask ourselves, "What would Abe Lincoln do?"
8
Where are the slaves? Do you know how far Licoln went to try to avoid war?
He had no intent to invade Southern states, nor did he intend to end slavery where it existed, but said that he would use force to maintain possession of Federal property. The government would make no move to recover post offices, and if resisted, mail delivery would end at state lines. Where popular conditions did not allow peaceful enforcement of Federal law, U.S. Marshals and Judges would be withdrawn. No mention was made of bullion lost from U.S. mints in Louisiana, Georgia and North Carolina. In Lincoln's inaugural address, he stated that it would be U.S. policy to only collect import duties at its ports; there could be no serious injury to the South to justify armed revolution during his administration. His speech closed with a plea for restoration of the bonds of union, famously calling on "the mystic chords of memory" binding the two regions.
Your comparison is invalid both in background and in the actions taken to prevent war.
Such a shallow comparison only makes you seem insincere and incapable of even trying to work out your problems without resorting to violence.
Spain and Catalonia are not my problem, so just leave Abe out of it.
This is going to be a real conundrum for the left in America. Trump supports Madrid, therefore I suppose they'll have to go with Catalonia.
3
The Left didn't wait for Trump to support a free Catalonia==or even a free Spain, back in 1936.
1
These efforts by Madrid to undermine the referendum reek of good old fashioned fascism. Unacceptable. Why is the EU looking the other way? Or are they?
28
Fascists? Really? Isn't that a bit heavy handed? Spain is a democracy with a constitution. Why hasn't Puiddemont appealed the constitution and submited an amendment to it? Because he's afraid it will not win in a referendum? It's not fair to deny Spaniards their constitutional rights and them call them fascists.
18
Are you serious? What would you say if California decided to secede from the US? Last time secession was contemplated in the US in 1861 it became a serious issue. Why do you think Spanish democratic system is less than the US one?
15
One wonders if commenters like this one have any familiarity with the Spanish constitution.
7
If Catalonia has no army, they can never be a country.
Case closed!
2
So that means Kurdistan, Syrian, Turkish and Iraqi are countries. While Scotland has a separate legal system but has no army is not even though it was allowed to vote for its independence.
1
Nonsense. Many countries don’t have armies! Costa Rica doesn’t and is one of the most developed and peaceful countries in Central America. You only need an army if you expect to fight a war.
Tithe impetus of the Catalonian referendum? Tribes will always be tribal...
4
Alexis de Tocqueville would understand. In all places, the poor outnumber the rich. When the poor vote, they always vote for more benefits for themselves and more taxes on the rich. This works--until the rich leave. Every country has its Catalonia, every continent has its Singapore.
In truth, the century of the middle class, roughly 1848 to 1973, was a gross historical aberration. Our sense of the "normal," consisting of reasonably well-off and literate masses, is historically abnormal and has no parallel in Rome, no parallel in the Muslim empires, no parallel in China. The West is reverting to the historical mean of fragile atolls of immense wealth among stormy oceans of abject poverty. And sea levels are rising.
8
Having lived in Spain for some years...many people today talk about the civil war (1936-1939) like it was "yesterday". Even today, families are split between the Franco's forces and the Spanish Republicans (not the same as we term this group in the US).
Barcelona held out against Franco's forces (supported by German Air Force and Italian ground forces..mostly arty) foe several years until taken by Franco's forces...whereupon, the "Butcher of Barcelona" (whose name I cannot recall) murdered hundreds, perhaps thousands of captured men and women...he later became the 1st Defense Minister under Franco.
This and other issues to include language differences are causation of the possible split.
Something else. Madrid is only a three hour fast train ride to Barcelona. Yet, if educated in Madrid where people speak Castelleno Spanish..yet cannot work in Catalonia because they do not speak Catalan...and vica versa.
These issues and many more are the foundation for division...and lastly Catalona supplies about 45% of Spain's GDP..yet receives only 20% returned in terms of services.
21
Madrid was the capital of the 2nd Republic and was under siege for 3 years, as were Barcelona and Valencia. Franco was Galician, as is Rajoy (Galicia is another autonomous community that is 100% bilingual). Catalonia contributes no more than 20% of GDP, with a population slightly below that. Barcelona would have half the population it has now if Catalonian industries had not been protected since the 19th century by high tariff barriers, assuring advantaged access to a much larger (Spanish and in the 19th century, Cuban, Philippine and Puerto Rican) market (ditto for Basque steel). Franco's government was behind the establishment of Seat in Catalonia (assuring a large, export-oriented automobile industry). Go ahead and calculate the ratio of national population to capital in any independent European country and you'll see what I mean. I have NO sympathy for Rajoy and his party or his methods, but this victimization narrative, with its hyperbole and outright falsification of facts, is of no help. I have many Catalonian friends and relatives and many families are divided right down the middle on this issue. Even independence-minded Catalans know they need a ham-handed response from Rajoy in order to mobilize majority support for separation: if a real debate were held, and a real referendum (which I have always supported), the NO vote to seccession would win. And the seccessionists know it: that is why they WANT Rajoy to overplay his hand. Demagoguery is sad no matter the flag.
40
This is not about Republicans and Francoists.
Many Catalans supported Franco, and many non-Catalans supported the Republic. In fact, Madrid, not Barcelona, was the last city to resist.
The fact that many Catalans use "Spanish" as a synonym for "fascist" is just a sign of the huge indoctrination and propaganda we have endured for many decades.
10
But the gist is correct. Catalan (language) was outlawed in Franco's time as were many other things... I too think that many Catalans are divided, but Madrid's response is in fact overly aggressive but not surprising in our present time. As I have mentioned to many separatists - sadly, you must arm yourselves. Madrid will not tolerate independence. The naivete of many Catalans independentists is unbearable. Terra LLiure will probably have to return. They see how, inadvertently, ETA helped the average Basque. Bilboa is rich, but folks in Granada can't afford to turn on the wifi...democracy is great debate and problem to have.
If I was an elected official over there, I would rather be "punished" by the Spanish govt than by the citizens who elected me to represent them. Sometimes you have to take a stand in defense of liberty regardless of the political cost.
1
If only it were so simple. Many Catalonians don't want independence and many are sick of the violent and insufferable discourse coming from the nationalists that they have been having to hear all their lives. Many elected officials are not nationalistic and THAT is way they were elected in the first place. They are representing the citizens who represent them and not being cowards as you imply.
11
Except that, just like in the US, the mayors have taken an oath to protect and defend the Spanish constitution, and the Spanish supreme court equivalent has determined that this referendum violates that constitution. In addition, many cities, especially the larger ones, in Catalonia have most of the population opposed to the referendum.
3
I lived in Barcelona for many years, and I have some perspective.
There are many reasons the Catalans want independence. Most importantly, many Catalans feel they are a nation, with their own language, history, literature, etc. The more immediate reason is they contribute massively to the state budget and they receive relatively little in return. This might be justified since they are a richer region, but the difficulty is that Catalans are generally disliked in the rest of Spain. There will never be a national party that is headed by a Catalan, or that seeks the input of Catalans in any meaningful way. Instead, the major parties (the ruling PP party and the PSOE) fire the flames and antagonize the Catalans to get more support in other Spanish regions. When in a situation where you are a big net contributor to the budget, but you have no input on how the money is spent, many reasonable people might think independence is a good alternative.
99
There will never be a major party that is headed by a Catalan? Have you not heard of Convergence? It has ruled Catalonia for the better part of 40 years and played a very important role in national politics. Two of the seven "padres" of the Spanish Constitution were Catalan. Many Catalans have served in the leading ministerial positions of Spanish government--diplomatic, judicial, economic and cultural. The problem today is that Catalan nationalism is confused with Catalan citizenship. Their are plenty of Spaniards who are fraternal, have families with mixed ethnic identities and so forth. What is intolerable to the average Spaniard is the chauvinism and victimization that the Catalan nationalists spread throughout schools, state controlled media and in a hostile discourse blaming everything on "Madrid."
15
Maybe you have experienced living in Catalonia as a foreigner. I lived there as a teenager who was born in Madrid and it was the worst year of my life. There werevkids who expressed their hatred to me on a weekly basis. They hated me simply because I had been born in Madrid. These kids had been brainwashed. There is a very ugly xenophobic side to the Catalonian nationalistic movement.
8
But they don't have the influence of their financial contribution. Major railroad artery to Northern Europe ring any bells...?
1
The democratic countries of the World must unite to condemn the Spanish regime. We can't allow an authoritarian regime in the EU.
How can it be that the Spanish parliament determined most of the judges of the Constitutional Court who suspended the Catalan laws? That in my book is a political jury. Specially if the former president of the Constitutional Court, Francisco Perez de los Cobos recognised being a member of the ruling party (who elected him). To make it more hilarious, Francisco's brother, Diego Perez de los Cobos is the paramilitary officer that is now leading the repression on the referendum.
There's no separation of powers in Spain.
If we don't fight for democracy and basic human rights, who is going to do it?
The right of self-determination is an international right that must be defended.
All my support to the Catalan people who are enduring harsh weeks.
2
If you live in Florida, you probably understand that Florida must still abide by US federal law and the Constitution even though the justices of the US Supreme Court are picked by the US president, not the governor of Florida. It is no different in Spain, and Catalans have just as much a right to vote as any other Spanish citizens.
5
Catalonia was conquered by force of arms in the 1700s. The conqueror was Castilla (aided by Aragon). I would like to think that Rajoy will not try to have his troops resort to violence to stop Catalonia from resuming its place among the world's nation states. No matter what Mr. Rajoy says or thinks, Catalonia is not Spain.
Dan Kravitz
3
Catalans who sided with the Austrians, British and Dutch lost to Catalans who sided with the French armies in a war to achieve dynastic rights over the defunct Hapsburg family. The notion that this was a Spanish war against Catalonia is a nationalist myth. Both sides were fighting for their version of Spain and a foreign monarch to take over and implement their notion of a monarchy. The people of Barcelona withstood a long siege, were abandoned by their allies the British and succumbed to French forces in 1714. The handwriting was already on the wall though as the Treaty of Utrecht had already been negotiated.
8
Catalonia formed part of Aragon in the 13th Century which united with Castile to become Spain. In the War of Spanish Succession from 1700 to 1714, Catalonia originally remained loyal to the new Bourbon king, Phillip V, nephew of France's Sun King. But then it backstabbed Phillip and changed forces, siding with the Austrian Habsburgs and the British. Phillip invaded Catalonia and rescinded its autonomy which it had preserved since the 14th Century (much like Navarre). In short, Catalonia was never a separate nation from Spain, but the removal of its autonomy was punitive in nature. It has regained its autonomy off and on in successive centuries, but was never independent.
7
This and another article failed to mention that Catalan is the only official language of Andorra and that Catalonia (as a region populated by people with
Catalan as their native language) formerly encompassed a significant portion of what is now France. Catalan is more similar to Portuguese than Spanish, at least to the ears of this Portuguese speaker who once spent three weeks in Barcelona.
2
and french and italian...Catalan is a profoundly beautiful and different Mediterranean language.
1
Let me quote President John F Kennedy in September 1962 "Americans are free, in short, to disagree with the law but not to disobey it. For in a government of laws and not of men, no man, however prominent or powerful, and no mob, however unruly or boisterous, is entitled to defy a court of law. If this country should ever reach the point where any man or group of men by force or threat of force could long defy the commands of our court and our Constitution, then no law would stand free from doubt, no judge would be sure of his writ, and no citizen would be safe from his neighbors."
The Government of Catalonia is, in short, disobeying the law, instigating mobs against the Constitutional Court (our Supreme Court), and making people enemies to one another. Catalonia is on the verge of falling into the anarchic abysm feared by President Kennedy.
24
The US should be supporting the right of self-determination for the people of Catalonia, and call for a democratic referendum to be held without intimidation or incrimination from the Spanish government.
45
Yes! Liberty for the Basques, the Valencianos, de Catalans, the Galicians, and the people of Toledo!
Yes, a legitimate referendum should be held. This one is not transparent and many Catalonians are denouncing it as such. It has been organized by Puigdemont who is ruling without the popular vote. He organized it secretly behind doors, without including all the other members of the Catalonian parliament. His party is counting the votes. Who votes and who doesn't? It's not clear. Etc. That's why a lot of reasonable people are protesting this referendum in Spain. It's not because they are fascists.
5
What you are really asking is that the US call for amendment to Spain's constitution.
1
The Council of Europe the organization charged with upholding human rights, democracy and rule of law has said this referendum does not meet its standards. The referendum is being held without the support of the larger country and the organization of it lacks democratic guarantees. The Venice Commission that makes recommendations for referendums says that the government sponsoring the vote should be neutral. The Catalan nationalists in charge of the regional government are not in any way, shape or form neutral.
9
I would like to see how Washington would react to California or Texas deciding to host a secession referendum, even a non - binding one. I would bet that it's reaction would be much more "fascist" or "police state"-like than whatever Madrid is doing now.
The fact remains that if Catalán independent feelings grew so much since 2009 (relatively in a short period), Madrid has its large share of responsibility.
18
There is nothing whatsoever illegal about California or Teas holding a referendum analogous to the way Catalonia's is worded: Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?
In the US in the case of a US state, that could simply reflect pursuit of legal mechanisms, or the advocacy of creation of legal mechanisms involving perhaps pursuit and advocacy of a nationally approved Constitutional amendment to allow states to leave. Unless one is advocating an illegal, unilateral or violent process for leaving, a referendum or ballot initiative would not be illegal in the US. Just as DC has had referenda voted to pursue rights not legally entitled to a non-state, in order to show public support for adovacy and resources to such ends.
1
Welcome to the United States of Amnesia. There's just the little matter of that nasty civil war, which was fought over what now? Most Southerners wanted secession and they were perfectly in their right constitutionally to secede, but Lincoln said no.
7
The bottom line is that the Catalan governement-promoted referendum is illegal in Spain's constitutional system. The referendum's supporters a priori have claimed that a majority of Catalonians are in favor of independence and thus they don't need to find a constitutionally valid solution to achieve their goal.
By the even in the best of conditions, are there guarantees that the results would not be tainted?
11
Of Spain refuses any democratic solutions? How can you than say the Spanish constitution even matters in the slightest. The amount of constitutionally authorized secessions are very limited. Is violence the answer then? Certainly the historically common solution. I'd prefer is Spain was mature enough to not let it go there. If only Europe was more democratic than it really is.
1
International conventions are above countries' constitutions. The right of Self-determination is widely recognised, and the US defended it for cases like Kosovo.
On Sunday's referendum, there are many international observers that were electoral public officials in other countries like New Zealand, that guarantee that the results are not tainted.
The Spanish Government is not closing voting sites "with the support" of the Judiciary, but the other way around, it is the Judiciary that is mandating that all voting sites be closed because that is a violation of the law. If the central Government can be accused of anything, and it has it is of not acting in time and not acting with decision.
Also, there is no independence involved as Catalonia is not a colony of Spain but an autonomous region. In any case what could be in play is separation, not independence. The separationists are looking to install their own local Judiciary that they expect to be more lenient in the hundreds of corruption cases that are being investigated or prosecuted.
25
The secessionists in Catalonia are a para-fascist and supremacist movement that want to create a monolingual state. Catalonia has the most ample autonomy among the European regions: it has its own police force, education, public health system, etc. The Spanish Constitution has a great system to protect the human rights, the territorial differences, but doesn't allows the secession (as most of democratic countries do). The referendum is illegal and impossible. The secessionist leaders want only to create disturbs, riots and possibly, martyrs. The are a dangerous liars gang, a toxic emanation in European political life.
28
Maybe Madrid should think about other ways to generate income than off the back of Catalunya? Is it fair that they are taxed much more than what they get back from the country?
7
Actually, Catalans are known for having a long history of peaceful democratic movements, that are tolerant and integrate outsiders.
Many pro-independence supporters who are the sons of immigrants that came from most of the World. And they have many languages. In fact many pro-independence politicians speak Spanish as a native tongue. So your argument of a monolingual state is not true.
You just have to see the pro-demonstration demonstrations that manage to gather millions of people, without any riots.
I can't say the same for the Spanish side, you just have to check the top news these last weeks where the Spanish police sent to Catalonia befriended many unionist demonstrators that were members of extreme right parties like Falange or Democracia Nacional. You just have to check the websites of those extreme right parties to see images and videos of the events.
1
Catalonia is one of the wealthier regions of Spain, so it makes sense that it should contribute to historically poorer regions of Spain, such as Extremadura or Andalucía. To suggest otherwise is an apology for greed.
Here in the United States, richer states such as New York and New Jersey contribute more to the federal government than they get back. These funds go to poorer states which need the aid, like Mississippi or Alabama. A few people complain about this, but overwhelmingly people in our area don't have a problem with it. Why? Because despite our geographic and ideological differences we understand that they are part of the United States. We identify with them as Americans.
Sadly, this patriotism does not exist in Spain. It has been eroded over decades of autonomous control in Catalonian schools; taught in history books that reinforce an US versus THEM mentality; books that teach that Catalonia is a nation occupied by the Spanish State, despite the historical fact that Catalonia has been part of Spain (through the Crown of Aragon) since the 14th Century, long before Columbus ever "sailed the ocean blue."
A generation of Catalans have been inculcated to defy the Spanish state. They do not identify as Spaniards. So, years ago, when the recession hit Spain hard, Catalonian deeply resented having to carry Spain "on their backs" because their identity as Spaniards has been systematically eroded. This is more about money than romantic arguments of nationalism
26
My parents fled Spain to escape violent authoritarianism under Franco, which Europe then tolerated for 36 years. When the dictator died in 1975, the impulse did not die with him, apparently. There are still a lot of people in Spain more comfortable with dictatorship than with democracy.
18
Dictatorship of the majority is still dictatorship.
Democracy is about following the laws that we have freely given ourselves.
9
That is the problem. The current Spanish constitution was written under the dictatorship. Therefore, many of Catalans were forced to accept this Constitution where a referendum is something illegal unless allowed by the Spanish government. Of course, there is another impossible option which would be to change the constitution but for that, you need 60% of the parliamentarians to agree. Not even if everybody in Catalonia voted for an independent party would not be enough parliamentarians. This is a dead end, where 2 of the 5 million voters in Catalonia supported parties in favor to ask in a referendum for the independence. This will keep happening in the following elections unless they make independence movements illegals, which at that point you are taking away the rights of 2 million.
1
The Constitution was written in 1978 three years after Franco died. It was voted on and approved by all Spaniards, including Catalans.
7
The Catalans, the Kurds, who's next? Ethnic groups inside larger countries want their own country, believing with good reason that either now or later the majority group will exploit them and treat them as second-class citizens. I'm curious how Catalans are treated, and how they feel they are treated in Spain.
2
We are treated just like all the other Spaniards are treated.
The only thing that makes Catalans different is our language, which has exalted status in Catalonia. All schools, university and public institutions have Catalan as their official language. The Education minister of the Catalan government is proud not to speak Spanish very well!
The only exploitation is that we have to pay taxes that go in part to other poorer Spanish regions. So unfair!
7
Comparing Catalans, who enjoy a very high standard of living in one of the wealthiest countries in the world with Kurds who live in a war-torn, savaged region, and have been historically oppressed for centuries, is facetious at best.
10
They have one thing in common: they are a specific group in a larger country that want to be independent of that country. Explain if you will why that is facetious.
Looks like Madrid is determined to keep their cash cow tied up as long as they can. Sad that they can't lift a finger to address the concerns of Catalunya but they have no qualms about living off their taxes.
5
Madrid's region GDP per capita has surpassed Catalonia's, same with their major cities, Madrid and Barcelona. Madrid is contributing more to Spain, and getting back less than Catalonia lately. Also, Catalonia is the region with more public debt in Spain.
7
rmanson1000. What do you mean when you say Madrid? Are you referring to the city and its dwellers? Please know that the Autonomous Community of Madrid gives as much money to the Spanish state as Catalonia does. Catalonia is a wonderful, wonderful prosperous place and the deserve an improved standing within the Spanish state and within Europe. It will continue to prosper and amaze the world with its magnificent culture traditions and prowess. But the discourse that confronts Barcelona vs. Madrid is divisive, misinformed and it is one that needs to be questioned. I invite you to check the facts more closely. Reality matters.
8
Years of autonomous rule in Catalonia have led to this kind of distorted thinking. There are echo chambers in Catalonia too. Their Fox News is called TV3, and it has brainwashed Catalans to believe that Catalonia is an occupied territory, and that Spain "robs" them.
The facts are, the separatist movement only reached its apogee in the last ten years due to the worldwide recession. Now that things are looking up in Spain, the support for secession is waning. The current separatist movement has always been about money and nothing else.
Catalonia was a County in the 14th Century which was incorporated into the Crown or Aragon through marriage, long before the King of Aragon, Ferdinand, married the Queen of Castile, Isabella, to form the modern Spanish state a century later. Catalonia has always been a part of Spain. For Catalans to say "Spain robs us" is as nonsensical as someone from Chicago saying "America robs us."
The present secessionist movement in Catalonia masquerading as a "democracy" movement has more to do with propaganda and intimidation than any genuine sense of freedom. Spaniards living in Catalonia who do not speak Catalonian are harassed and ridiculed daily. Imagine hanging a Spanish flag on your balcony and having it defiled, your home egged and spray painted. A minority of separatists want to impose their will on the majority through intolerance and bullying. They believe in their exceptionalism over Spain's diversity. It's Yugoslavia all over again.
17
Why has the United States, reflexively, come to oppose self-determination anywhere and everywhere, be it Kurdistan, Catalonia, or elsewhere? Why can people no longer form independent states if they want them? Should the USSR and Yugoslavia been held together against the will of its many oppressed peoples? How about the pre-1914 empires? Was reconstituting Poland a bad idea? This stance is ridiculous.
9
I am pretty sure the Spanish Constitution says all Spaniards have the same legal and political rights. That is very different than in an imperial situation.
8
Furthermore,
why the United States have forgotten they exist because some brave people fighted for their rights, which have been half-supressed by United Kingdom, and finallly got the independence?
2
US has always made military or other efforts abroad only to secure access to natural resources under foreign soils.
At what point has US ever willingly championed "self-determination" for any nation, even - as corporate wealth seizes all aspects of America - our own?
1
I was in Barcelona two weeks ago during Catalonia Day. More than a million people, many being parents with children and strollers, marched and heard speeches. It was more like a family parade than a protest march.
Not being familiar with Spanish politics, I asked several people why they wanted to secede from Spain. A few talked of history, but most said that were tired of paying more in taxes to the Spanish government than they got back to their region (20 billion euro net outflows was the number quoted to me).
Note to the Deep South U.S.: Better hope that New York, Massachusetts, Washington State and California don't get the same idea as Catalonia.
76
Washington and California aren't a nation. So their interest would be financial. In Catalonia, there is, of course, a financial issue, but mostly we are a nation. Remember Pau Casal's speech in UN, in 1971.
2
Better than Casals' UN speech are his J. S. Bach cello suites, recorded way back (in the '20s or '30s?) and still unsurpassed.
The cities of the deep south, all run by democrats are indeed a huge drain. Red counties in the US, north and south, are net takers, and Blue GOP counties are net income contributors. It is much ore accurate to use cities, counties or even individuals than bluntly using states, and you see in all those metrics it is GOP areas and individuals that are more likely to be contributors
2
Even if you put aside the conflict with the Spanish Constitution, the referendum is absurd on purely Catalan terms: it was voted by a Parlament based on a local constitution (Estatut) that requires a 3/4 majority for any amendment, yet the referendum that eliminates this very Estatut was approved by simple majority in Parlament, and it will be considered approved if it receives more than 50% of the popular vote.
It has been apparent for many years that the Spanish Constitution must be amended to allow for this kind of referendum under well-established conditions, but to do it "a la torera" is an insult to the Catalonia we all love and admire.
41
Democracy? It seems more like a police state.
Do the powers that are inflicting this suppression think that their actions will make this “go away”?
6
If nothing else, crying "Franco" reveals a poor grasp of actual history. No one is being arrested or shot for speaking Catalan!
25
Some Catalans say that they only want to vote. As if we never voted! We've been voting regularly for over 40 years.
This is not about voting. It is about respecting the law.
In the Catalan Parliament, 72 members voted to have the referendum, and 63 members voted against it. The way the vote was conducted, without any debate or possibility of amendments, is illegal according the l'Estatut (the Catalan Constitution), as the Parliament legal office noticed. It did not matter. In the Catalan government, might makes it right.
Every single member of the Catalan Parliament has sworn both the Catalan Constitution and the Spanish Constitution, which over 90% of Catalans voted for in 1978. Most Catalans want to have a referendum, but we want a referendum that has all the legal guarantees. How can we trust politicians who believe that, if they are in the majority, they do not have to respect the law?
The mayors featured in the article are heroes for abiding the law despite incredible institutional and public pressure. This is not a law that was imposed by Franco, but a law that was written by our representatives in a democratic state.
If somebody doesn't like the law, they can change it. But they need to change it following the legal pathways that our Constitutions (Spanish and Catalan) demand. That is how real democracies work.
61
Actually international conventions are above a country's constitution -that's why the UN can send peacekeeping missions-. And basic rights like the Self-determination of people is one that is defended by the UN charters, that even Spain promised to defend.
Ironically enough the Spanish Constitution recognises that Spain is formed by different nationalities in it's second article. Last week the Spanish Gov has cut Catalonia's powers de facto, which is not legal even under that Constitution, as it would require the implementation of the article 155 of the Spanish Constitution after a parliament vote.
As you can see, this Spanish Gov that insist so much on respecting the law, its the first entity to commit all kind of illegal acts trying to repress a vote!
Hate to say this but your argument is simply not factual. National sovereignty trumps everything else including the UN! The same is true in the EU. Just ask the Hungarians when they built a fence along their border to keep Syrian refugees from passing. It was and is their sovereign right to do so no matter how much the EU objected. Sovereignty is trumped by nothing except national weakness. A strong country remains sovereign and there is nothing any outside entity can do about it other than the use of force or sanctions. Welcome to the real world.
Thank you! It cannot be said clearer or better. Spain is a democracy, and despite its many problems, there are laws and process that people need to follow. How would Americans feel if, say, California or New York, decide unilaterally to vote for independence from the US, without even following State law? Would americans want the president to do something about it?
1
Mayors in Catalonia have not been "intimidated into hosting the referendum". They were asked to do so, and some 800 of them -- the vast majority -- agreed to do so willingly, enthusiastically, and in full awareness of the risks involved. Those who choose not to are free not to do so; others will make sure that the right of citizens in their municipalities to vote is respected. Núria Marín is speaking for a party which once had a broad following in Catalonia -- the Partit dels Socialistes de Catalunya, or PSC -- and now is rapidly descending into political irrelevance as it sides with the forces of reaction in Catalonia (the Catalan branches of the right-wing Partido Popular and Ciudadanos) and the Spanish forces of repression. Although it claims to be an independent affiliate of the Spanish Socialist Workers' Party (PSOE, which has joined with the Spanish government in opposition to the referendum), it is now, in effect, nothing more than a local branch party of PSOE. Some officials elected on the socialist ticket have resigned their seats in protest against PSC's anti-referendum position.
6
We can all thank Catalan seditionist for the rise of the PP. Moderates are being forced to move to the right because splitting Spain up in pieces is a no win situation for everyone.
4
We should not forget that Catalonia has been fighting for independence for a long time. In the 1640s, Portugal benefited from a Catalan revolt against Spain in order to regain its independence. Spain's intransigence is nothing new.
6
Ok, but the peasant revolt was against taxes. The "independence" they won was only becoming servile ti France. In 2017 the watchword is European integration and destroying the nation-states is not going to make for a smoother path of integration.
5
Stopping citizens from voting using threats and police actions is not a sign of a healthy democracy.
Madrid can declare the referendum non-binding and the courts can call in unconstitutional. Catalonians can vote their conscience and Madrid can ignore it, leaving the next move (if there is one) to the people of Catalonia. But when you send an army of police into an area and tell people that they can't vote their conscience, you're just asking for a world of resentment. What follows - inevitably - is violence.
29
NYInsider,
They are not telling people they can't vote their conscience. People vote their conscience freely every few years in Catalonia.
They are telling the Catalan government that they cannot have an illegal referendum that goes against both the Spanish and the Catalan referendum.
This is a referendum that does not represent all the Catalan voices, but only the voices of those who are willing to break the law of the land.
Many of us want a legal referendum where all our voices can be heard, including the voices of people we don't agree with.
10
Asking Spanish citizens for a Visa to enter Catalonia within 48 hours of the referendum is also an afront.
3
I hope the people of Spain are able to decide their fate in a peaceful way that reflects their wishes.
Now...if only we could separate ourselves from Texas and the southern states in this country.
4
Personally, while I don't agree with the politics of most of the South; I do enjoy passport and visa free travel all across this mostly great land. I think it would be a travesty to lose that. We already lost it with Canada and the Caribbean.
1
What people of Spain? It is the Catalans who want to separate. Not the rest of Spain.
2
As someone who lived a long time in Barcelona I can tell you that these crazed "Catanazi" independence supporters are not just misguided by nationalist zeal, they are completely outside the law and the constitution of Spain. Imagine a US state deciding to unilaterally hold a state-wide referendum for independence without going through the process prescribed by the US Constitution! It's untenable! Well, the same is true in Catalonia. The autonomous government (equivalent to a US state) has simply decided to ignore the law and the constitution and go ahead with their ILLEGAL referendum, and worse, under the guise of some kind of deluded appeal to "democracy". The whole thing is ludicrous. If Catalonians have a beef with the rest of their country (Spain), they need to solve it constitutionally. The Spanish state cannot be blamed for trying to maintain law and order in this area of their country. To do otherwise would be irresponsible. I am no Trump supporter, but kudos to President Trump for supporting the Spanish PM Rajoy in this. And as for the poor Catalonians, from which I count many friends, all I can say is "look further afield" than your narrow regional view. The future of Europe is not in dismemberment, but integration.
53
There is no legal way forward. The federal government will not allow a vote. This is plain and simple. If someone does not allow you to do something, no amount of abiding the law will change the situation.
6
They can change the Constitution. The Catalan nationalists believe that there should not be any freedom to oppose their wishes. In order to convince people and parties to change their position you have to try and make allies and win majorities. The Catalan nationalist just insult the notion of Spain and demand their preferred outcome.
5
To be fair....the is no method for secession in the US constitution. Our own civil war shows what happens when states try to secede.
2
Regardless of how one justifies condemning the separatists (for legal, economic, or the fact that Catalonians are deeply divided on the issue), the facts are clear:
If Madrid seizes power in Catalunya and overthrows the elected local government, then Catalunya is no longer a part of a democratic nation. Instead, Catalunya becomes an occupied Spanish territory, just like it was under Franco.
16
What would you expect to happen if a US State declared independence?
5
Catalonia was never an occupied Spanish territory.
Catalonia was a Spanish territory that was under a dictatorship, like the rest of the country.
Many Catalans forget (or, worse yet, have never been taught) that the last city that resisted Franco was not Barcelona, but Madrid.
11
This won't end well.
6