hmm - let's see Michael Tomasky correctly points out that a from of DREAM is favored by both republicans and democrats. President Bush proposed DREAM legislation. President Obama wanted a DREAM bill. It never happened though - it has been stalled for 15 years. Now Michael says a compromise giving Trump something he wants (money for a wall) should not be done. This is exactly why a DREAM bill hasn't passed - each side uses it as leverage for something else. Obama told the house democrats to stop working on a DREAM bill in the house - because he thought he could get a more favorable bill working with the senate - this push for the perfect bill with all the most favorable details for one side causes the bill to fail. It is time to stop. Pass a DREAM law and we will not have to worry about one man executive orders to determine the fate of the dreamers. Pass a law that gives them proper protection. Yes a wall is dumb - but if we can pass DREAM bill that appropriates say $500 million towards a wall - hold your nose and pass the bill! Time to stop claiming"higher moral ground" and get it done. Michael Tomasky - the democratic version of the tea party?
The author is right. Resist means resist. The Democrats' most devoted allies are like me. We want to fight; we're loaded for bear. We don't need no stinking compromise. If Chuck and Nancy are out of touch with our rage and our persistence, they may wish to step down and let a couple of brawlers take their place.
I wasn't always this way. But then I wasn't always facing off with Russia colluding climate denying Nazi sympathizing opposition. I've been Breibarted enough. Time to give back.
I wasn't always this way. But then I wasn't always facing off with Russia colluding climate denying Nazi sympathizing opposition. I've been Breibarted enough. Time to give back.
Obama compromised with Republicans to provide extension of Un-Employment benefits for 4 million Americans. The Bush tax cuts were extended in exchange and the debt grew proportionately.
The DACA 800K are a threat. Deporting them is suicide for Republicans. Many of them are essential to our economy. Houston's rebuild relies on DACA, Social Security and Medicare relies on DACA. The GDP relies on DACA. Christian belief hinges on the treatment of DACA children.
The Wall is a stupid wasteful farcical cynical ploy that has no support among the overwhelming majority of tax payers. Will Republicans go to the Wall to waste billions of dollars or drain the treasury to deport 800k workers, students, and tax payers? Ask only what extremes will Republican cynicism go to to get the votes of Nazis, KKK, and Christian Taliban, and the deluded fans of Ayn Rand.
Victorious in dealing with sane Democrats has defanged rabid Republicans. If Trump has ANY negotiating skills there are more genuine possibilities for Trump with Democrats than the fascists and the cynical opportunists in the GOP. Trump wants to be a winner more than he wants to be a Republican.
The DACA 800K are a threat. Deporting them is suicide for Republicans. Many of them are essential to our economy. Houston's rebuild relies on DACA, Social Security and Medicare relies on DACA. The GDP relies on DACA. Christian belief hinges on the treatment of DACA children.
The Wall is a stupid wasteful farcical cynical ploy that has no support among the overwhelming majority of tax payers. Will Republicans go to the Wall to waste billions of dollars or drain the treasury to deport 800k workers, students, and tax payers? Ask only what extremes will Republican cynicism go to to get the votes of Nazis, KKK, and Christian Taliban, and the deluded fans of Ayn Rand.
Victorious in dealing with sane Democrats has defanged rabid Republicans. If Trump has ANY negotiating skills there are more genuine possibilities for Trump with Democrats than the fascists and the cynical opportunists in the GOP. Trump wants to be a winner more than he wants to be a Republican.
This feeble analysis fails to consider the two most salient points - i.e., the 2016 voters provided guidance to Congress (not the current opinion polls), and President Trump may have a low approval rating, but not nearly as low as the approval rating of Congress. A failure to compromise on something that Trump successfully campaigned on will reflect poorly on the Dems in the 2018 midterms.
1
This is a truly dumb column. Without meaningful immigration reform, the Wall is just an embodiment of our immigration laws. Like many, I think that these laws are in a sorry state of shambles, an embarrassing collection of thinly disguised prejudices which serve neither the national interest of national interest. But if all it would take to make these laws at least a little better would be to pay to make manifest the injustice of the remaining laws by building the Wall, I would say that was a victory and it would certainly make life better for an ascertainable number of young people.
1
DACA is against the law. Obama said as much and then did it anyway. that the other plan for the parents was deemed unconstitutional this is as well. are we a nation of laws or not?
2
Typical partisan nonsense. Both parties need to make compromises and learn to govern more effectively for the good of the country.
The billions that the administration wishes to waste on a wall that will do very little to reduce illegal immigration should instead be spent on rebuilding Texas, Florida, and every other state that is about to be hit hard during this hurricane season.
The money would be well spent supporting people of these states who will need jobs to survive the coming months and years, and will allow them to unite with their communities to rebuild something hopefully better than what was destroyed.
This is the time for us to bring people together to help one another, not build more hideous walls to separate us.
The money would be well spent supporting people of these states who will need jobs to survive the coming months and years, and will allow them to unite with their communities to rebuild something hopefully better than what was destroyed.
This is the time for us to bring people together to help one another, not build more hideous walls to separate us.
1
If Trump wants keep his promise to Build That Wall! then we need to ensure he keeps his financing promise by insisting on Pesos Up Front!
1
Jeff Sessions priorities are long term white culture. The president seems to blow with the wind on any given day. Jimmy Carter was correct about Donald Trump being malleable.
When it appeared he "got good press" for agreeing with Democrats on a long term solution to DACA, all of a sudden Mr. Trump wasn't gleefully destroying it out of "love." And willing to lessen Dreamers' fears with Pelosi's suggestion. This chance for Democrats to step up and overcome the mindset of Sessions and a do-nothing Congress is huge.
And I did see this unattributed quip:
Roses are red, tacos enjoyable.
Don't blame DACA if you're unemployable.
'Cause you're unemployable.
When it appeared he "got good press" for agreeing with Democrats on a long term solution to DACA, all of a sudden Mr. Trump wasn't gleefully destroying it out of "love." And willing to lessen Dreamers' fears with Pelosi's suggestion. This chance for Democrats to step up and overcome the mindset of Sessions and a do-nothing Congress is huge.
And I did see this unattributed quip:
Roses are red, tacos enjoyable.
Don't blame DACA if you're unemployable.
'Cause you're unemployable.
No DACA/Wall deal wtih the Devils (on both sides)!
This would be the most disgusting example of how deep and corrosive the Swamp is.
Each of us should be contacting every educational, professional, and social institution we belong to, and urging them to rise up and support continuance of the Dream Act. The Dreamers are the fundamental and clearest example of what America has, or should have had, held itself to be. "One nation, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.
This would be the most disgusting example of how deep and corrosive the Swamp is.
Each of us should be contacting every educational, professional, and social institution we belong to, and urging them to rise up and support continuance of the Dream Act. The Dreamers are the fundamental and clearest example of what America has, or should have had, held itself to be. "One nation, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.
One cannot make a deal with this narcissist. He has a consistent history of reneging on any agreements. Don't even say no. Say nothing.
You are exactly right. Why would the democrats compromise with Trump, a known con and cheat? Any deal with Trump legitimizes him. It would he height of stupidity. What's more, the Democrats should demand impeachment be on the table for any negotiation with the GOP.
Michael Tomasky I hear what you say.
You've forgotten something. The dreamers are people. Your fellows. You offer to sacrifice them to make a political point and to save money.
This is tantamount to leaving a man behind on the field. Simply not acceptable able.
You've forgotten something. The dreamers are people. Your fellows. You offer to sacrifice them to make a political point and to save money.
This is tantamount to leaving a man behind on the field. Simply not acceptable able.
I disagree with the author. It's very easy to take his position from the comfort of an office and being a citizen; did he ask any dreamer what they think about this compromise? What principle is more important to defend, the rights and life of dreamers or not to build the wall? If the republicans want to spend money on the wall , let them do it. The important thing is to defend the human rights of the 800000 dreamers.
no wall no daca. we owe it to our young folks who need entry level jobs at a wage determined by need..without competition from immigration cheaters or government minimum wage mandates.
A few lines from Robert Frost about a wall:
“Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it
And spills the upper boulders in the sun,
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.”
“Something there is that doesn’t love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it
And spills the upper boulders in the sun,
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.”
Swap DACA for smart wall funding!! Less cost, more efficient traffic flow, mostly invisible and lots fewer guns. What's not to like? (Unless what you really want is guns and amo.)
The Wall is not only a ridiculous waste of money, it's an obstacle to continuing good relationship with our allies- Mexico as well as Canada. We share the same continent, we have agreements to back each other up in case of emergency, we share freedom to visit back and forth with each of these countries. To date, no wall has proven successful. We have some many good ways to use our money for the betterment of all three countries. It makes no sense to wall ourselves off from the rest of the world. I DO Not want my money going to pay for a wall. Right now visiting back and forth with proper ID.
. Ecologically, it can cause backup of water on the US side in serious storms, because the wall will prevent drainage of water downhill to the ocean. This should not be entwined with the DACA program which is beneficial to all.
. Ecologically, it can cause backup of water on the US side in serious storms, because the wall will prevent drainage of water downhill to the ocean. This should not be entwined with the DACA program which is beneficial to all.
I wouldn't trade wall funding for DACA, but if the trade was real immigration reform with a path to citizenship for those who have worked hard, paid taxes, not committed crimes, etc. (and, oh, yeah, DACA) for wall funding, I'd let someone waste money on a wall.
Please publicize the damage a wall would do to the environment. Please publicize the fact that we would effectively be giving Mexico a substantial amount of land. Please publicize what Americans living on the border think of the idea. It is a stupid, stupid idea, and it is actually harmful and would affect people's lives.
Trump is holding hundreds of thousands of children, young adults, and the parents of very young children hostage. He is using his ability to torture and destroy them as a means to extort concessions from us. And the extortionist will never give up his leverage. He'll only demand more and more. We must never give Trump an inch, much less a wall.
Mueller, please work faster!
Mueller, please work faster!
The Wall won't increase jobs or pay rates for American citizens, so linking it to DACA is grotesque.
Building the wall is a symbolic distraction for the gullible to shift their focus from those who are responsible for their plight to those who are least responsible.
Root cause analysis - Reduction in wages and job loss is not the result of immigrants, legal or illegal. It is because investors squeeze corporate management to keep profits high or they'll tank the stock.
So the Board of Directors squeezes management and management squeezes employees and suppliers.
We could build the wall, or eliminate all immigrants, and guess what - investors will still squeeze management ......and wages will not increase.
Who will Trump and the GOP blame then?
Building the wall is a symbolic distraction for the gullible to shift their focus from those who are responsible for their plight to those who are least responsible.
Root cause analysis - Reduction in wages and job loss is not the result of immigrants, legal or illegal. It is because investors squeeze corporate management to keep profits high or they'll tank the stock.
So the Board of Directors squeezes management and management squeezes employees and suppliers.
We could build the wall, or eliminate all immigrants, and guess what - investors will still squeeze management ......and wages will not increase.
Who will Trump and the GOP blame then?
This is not hard. trump stoked the worst emotions in voters with his constant insistence that not only would he build a 2,000 mile border wall, but that MEXICO would pay for it. Well, now it's put up or shut up time for trump. To trump I say get Mexico to pay for the wall (100%) or move on to things Americans actually want. To the Dems I say NOT ONE DIME of US funds for a border wall. Otherwise, they will be complicit in trump's demagoguery.
This column is just nonsense. If Congress can enact a humane substitute for DACA, then sure, fund that ridiculous wall to the tune of $20B. It probably won't cost that much, and before it's too far along we'll probably have a different president one way or another.
So what if we build that wall? How does that compare to the unconscionable overspending on the military? It's not actually going to hurt the country, aside from the ridicule from more rational countries.
What in the world did you think deal-making would look like? Both sides have to give up something, and this is not the worst government deal I've seen proposed in my lifetime, not by a long shot.
So what if we build that wall? How does that compare to the unconscionable overspending on the military? It's not actually going to hurt the country, aside from the ridicule from more rational countries.
What in the world did you think deal-making would look like? Both sides have to give up something, and this is not the worst government deal I've seen proposed in my lifetime, not by a long shot.
1
Shouldn't be any need to horse-trade for DACA. This is a policy a strong majority of the country supports. Keep the pressure on Republicans and sooner or later they'll cave.
How soon we forget Bush's plan for a virtual wall and Boeing's billion dollar payment to make it happen. The project had to be abandoned. Costs were expected to balloon to 30 Billion.
The wall is just a way to funnel more taxpayer money to the major federal contractors.
The wall is just a way to funnel more taxpayer money to the major federal contractors.
1
Most Americans want enforcement of immigration laws. But the wall is a mediocre solution to that problem, since it does nothing to stop visa overstayers, and because it would be so costly.
There's a much better solution: a national, mandatory, E-Verify. This easy-to-use, inexpensive way for employers to check on the immigration status of job applicants, would kill the jobs magnet. Prison for heads of companies that knowingly hire illegal immigrants would strengthen it.
DACA is reasonable. But so is E-Verify. Without enforcement, DACA will encourage more illegal immigration. And we've had amnesties without enforcement at least since the Reagan amnesty of 1986. It's time to get serious about enforcement. DACA should not be passed without E-Verify.
There's a much better solution: a national, mandatory, E-Verify. This easy-to-use, inexpensive way for employers to check on the immigration status of job applicants, would kill the jobs magnet. Prison for heads of companies that knowingly hire illegal immigrants would strengthen it.
DACA is reasonable. But so is E-Verify. Without enforcement, DACA will encourage more illegal immigration. And we've had amnesties without enforcement at least since the Reagan amnesty of 1986. It's time to get serious about enforcement. DACA should not be passed without E-Verify.
4
When you say that 58% of Americans support the 'path to citizenship' this isn't completely honest - it depends on what you mean be 'a path to citizenship'. Does it mean immediate amnesty? Age restrictions? How long the person has been in the country? A completely clean criminal record? Employment or educational history? Proficiency in English?
Well, you get the idea. The 'path to citizenship' is one of those gauzy terms that means different things to different people. And this is one reason that congress really needs to debate and settle this matter - it is time to get specific.
Well, you get the idea. The 'path to citizenship' is one of those gauzy terms that means different things to different people. And this is one reason that congress really needs to debate and settle this matter - it is time to get specific.
3
Exactly. Politicans of either party who vote against the wall will be doing themselves a big favor. As the years pass, lawsuits are filed, costs are overrun it will become a highly visible embarrassment. In this age of drones and high tech surveillance, the idea of a gigantic wall is laughable.
This article is misleading. According to Gallup, in March 2017 59% of Americans worried a great deal about illegal immigration. Most Americans do not want "open borders" and they DO support border security. Not because of racism, because of drugs, safety, etc.
Without a wall (which is not a "wall" along the entire border) - if and when the Democrats are in charge again, the security will lax and they will once again push for open borders. The American people don't want that. We need a permanent solution that can't ebb and flow depending on who is running the country. It's better for Americans, legal immigrants, and illegal immigrants who risk their safety coming here and are forced to live in the shadows. We need permanent solutions - fencing, e-verify, an end to sanctuary cities and enforcement of the law for people who overstay their visas.
Time to solve the problem once and for all instead of using it for political wedge. Keep the dreamers, but solve the security problems for good. For the good of everyone.
Without a wall (which is not a "wall" along the entire border) - if and when the Democrats are in charge again, the security will lax and they will once again push for open borders. The American people don't want that. We need a permanent solution that can't ebb and flow depending on who is running the country. It's better for Americans, legal immigrants, and illegal immigrants who risk their safety coming here and are forced to live in the shadows. We need permanent solutions - fencing, e-verify, an end to sanctuary cities and enforcement of the law for people who overstay their visas.
Time to solve the problem once and for all instead of using it for political wedge. Keep the dreamers, but solve the security problems for good. For the good of everyone.
2
Yet that's exactly what will happen. Don't forget that "wall" is not a very well-defined term. In the end, DACA will flying, and a couple of billion will be thrown away on some mockery of a wall to save face for Trump.
The US needs to take care of the Dreamers and the hurricane disaster victims and never mind the wall. Members of Congress must surely realize that we cannot afford to built the "wall", take care of the hurricane victims and the Dreamers. Democrats should only agree to a fence attached to existing wall and call it wall or whatever Trump wants to call it. But not to take care of the Dreamers who are here through not fault of their own deserve to stay legally here. The vast majority of Dreamers are well educateded and are productive members of our society. To send them back from wherever their parents brought them from is heartless, morally wrong on so many levels and cruel, unusual and unjust punishment.
2
The Democratic tent is actually a herd of butterflies. Besides, as Mr. Trump is greatly illustrating, the issue isn't really either party but America itself: We are not who we think we are.
1
No we aren't. We used to be a country where the rule of law was paramount.
Trump will get his Wall, and not just some marginal down payment, and as a result the Dreamers will get a path way to citizenship.
This will offend the hard Left and Right with a result the majority of Americans can live with.
This will offend the hard Left and Right with a result the majority of Americans can live with.
Swapping DACA for the 'wall' may not be the worst idea. The 'wall' idea has obvious flaws, it's unnecessary, perhaps ineffective and an environmental hazard. On the other hand, like the proverbial bridge-to-nowhere, it'll create jobs in the short-term and give anxiety-ridden, mis-guided nationalists their much needed feel-good distraction.
1
Like so many of his pundit counterparts on the right—I’m thinking Douthat and Brooks here—Michael Tomasky seems to care more about the impact of bad policy on the electoral prospects of his party than on the welfare of actual human beings and the nation as a whole. There is no doubt that the border wall is a stupid idea that will serve no purpose other than feed Trump’s egomania. In contrast, ending DACA is devastating the lives of the 800,000 young people currently enrolled and millions of family members. Imagine having just finished college or left the military and starting a career that will contribute to the betterment of our society and all of sudden having to worry that someone will pound down your door and haul you away. Imagine being the mother or father, brother or sister, husband or wife of a person in that predicament. The fear, dread and despair that is now running through the immigrant community is palpable.
Thus, to my mind a couple of billion dollars going to border wall is a small price to pay for the peace of mind of millions of people. Mr. Tomasky may not get that cushy job in the next administration, but Dreamers and their families will be able sleep better and make the contributions to our society that they came here to make.
Thus, to my mind a couple of billion dollars going to border wall is a small price to pay for the peace of mind of millions of people. Mr. Tomasky may not get that cushy job in the next administration, but Dreamers and their families will be able sleep better and make the contributions to our society that they came here to make.
1
Funny how Democrats think they still run the government when the voters have turned against them in record numbers.
3
I guess Trumpites now believe he won a majority of the popular vote.
I'm trying my best not to be condescending, though, since they reportedly voted for Trump only because we elitists weren't nice to them, not because they really liked his racist, nativist, sexist politics and conduct.
I'm trying my best not to be condescending, though, since they reportedly voted for Trump only because we elitists weren't nice to them, not because they really liked his racist, nativist, sexist politics and conduct.
Surely there's room for compromise over the compromise!
Republicans vote for the Dreamer Act. Democrats vote to begin construction of the wall -- but Mr. Trump advances the money! He's good for the first $3.5 Billion, I understand, and as soon as the Mexicans pay up, he gets repaid with interest. What's not to like?
Well, maybe you don't like the entire idea. In that case, the wall can be demolished under the next Democratic President. Or if you think that's a waste of social resources, it can be painted white on both sides, roads broken through every fifty yards, and turned into the longest series of drive-in movie screens the world has ever seen!
Republicans vote for the Dreamer Act. Democrats vote to begin construction of the wall -- but Mr. Trump advances the money! He's good for the first $3.5 Billion, I understand, and as soon as the Mexicans pay up, he gets repaid with interest. What's not to like?
Well, maybe you don't like the entire idea. In that case, the wall can be demolished under the next Democratic President. Or if you think that's a waste of social resources, it can be painted white on both sides, roads broken through every fifty yards, and turned into the longest series of drive-in movie screens the world has ever seen!
I shall try again:
Can someone please explain to me and anyone else why
Immigration is inherently a good for America ?
Moreover, please explain why Undocumented Immigration
is good for America ?
How do either help native citizens who are poor, who are trapped in
Minimum Wage jobs, whose children go to overcrowded and underfunded
schools, who rely upon overcrowded/underfunded Public Hospitals
and find the cost of renting only increasing as the increase in competition
for units only grows ?
I just don't get the greater concern for Immigrants than for Citizens ?
Can you not see that poor African Americans will never get ahead
when there are millions of un-documented Immigrants willing to
take any job where African Americans might demand higher wages ?
Does any other country have such open borders and lax enforcement of
Immigration Laws ?
DACA will be tied up in the Courts and Stays will be issued.
And I hope the young people get to remain in America.
I hope anyone who is in America who is an immigrant and
has not committed a violent crime/felony can stay but
when oh when are we going to take care of American Citizens first ?
No one unified Wall will be built, but parts of walls will be added
to the walls and barriers on the border.
Now is the time for a complete Immigration Overhaul.
Now is the time to put the needs of poor Americans ahead
of any Immigrant.
Why people want the Balkanisation of America
is beyond my understanding.
Can someone please explain to me and anyone else why
Immigration is inherently a good for America ?
Moreover, please explain why Undocumented Immigration
is good for America ?
How do either help native citizens who are poor, who are trapped in
Minimum Wage jobs, whose children go to overcrowded and underfunded
schools, who rely upon overcrowded/underfunded Public Hospitals
and find the cost of renting only increasing as the increase in competition
for units only grows ?
I just don't get the greater concern for Immigrants than for Citizens ?
Can you not see that poor African Americans will never get ahead
when there are millions of un-documented Immigrants willing to
take any job where African Americans might demand higher wages ?
Does any other country have such open borders and lax enforcement of
Immigration Laws ?
DACA will be tied up in the Courts and Stays will be issued.
And I hope the young people get to remain in America.
I hope anyone who is in America who is an immigrant and
has not committed a violent crime/felony can stay but
when oh when are we going to take care of American Citizens first ?
No one unified Wall will be built, but parts of walls will be added
to the walls and barriers on the border.
Now is the time for a complete Immigration Overhaul.
Now is the time to put the needs of poor Americans ahead
of any Immigrant.
Why people want the Balkanisation of America
is beyond my understanding.
3
"The Democrats should be heading into 2018 standing firm against the single most conspicuous symbol of Mr. Trump’s racial policies and attitudes, not cutting deals with him on it."
But cut a deal they likely will, since Dems in Congress have almost as few morals as Republicans there do.
But cut a deal they likely will, since Dems in Congress have almost as few morals as Republicans there do.
He manages to write a whole column without pointing out the obvious: As of now, DACA is already gone. Tomasky writes as if they can still save it, but it's gone. The only thing to do is to pass it through Congress, and the Republicans can just decide not to do anything if the Democrats won't play ball, and then nothing happens and DACA is still gone.
1
Americans are reluctant to support another amnesty for unauthorized immigrants—including DACA enrollees—because they know open border advocates will work to thwart efforts to curtail future illegal immigration. In 1986, we granted amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants based on promises that the federal government would stop future illegal immigration. But a tsunami of illegal immigrants quickly pushed the number of people in the country illegally to more than 11 million. So there is nothing wrong in packaging citizenship for DACA enrollees with measures designed to sop future illegal immigration. The problem with the border wall is that it would not be an effective as other measures, such as empowering states and local jurisdictions to enforce U.S. immigration laws. The presence of more than 11 million unauthorized immigrant prove the federal government alone can’t stop illegal immigration.
3
The Democrats should NOT accept any such deal, be it or any other deal that would include any enforcement component. We don't want to support or lobby for any agreement that would set one group of immigrants against another. In this case, many DREAMERS have family members who are illegal. Thus, their relatives would be put at severe disadvantages by the wall and increased enforcement funding. I think what we all want to support is a humane immigration policy - not one that splits up families or pits one family member against another.
1
I've read all the comments. And I'm convinced that most of the people writing about supporting a wall, have never lived behind one.
I lived behind one in Berlin. And its effect was as visceral as it was political.
And even though Donald Trump has mentioned nothing about installing Watchtowers, Mine-fields, and Orders to shoot-to-kill, like we had to endure -- the efffect is still the same.
Intimidation. Isolation.
Those Americans who that think some mere wall, no matter how high-tech or "transparent", is going to stop anyone with the ways and means to get over it -- are fooling themselves.
And the America that once thought of itself as being truly free, is no longer.
The question is, how can its greatness arise from this?
I lived behind one in Berlin. And its effect was as visceral as it was political.
And even though Donald Trump has mentioned nothing about installing Watchtowers, Mine-fields, and Orders to shoot-to-kill, like we had to endure -- the efffect is still the same.
Intimidation. Isolation.
Those Americans who that think some mere wall, no matter how high-tech or "transparent", is going to stop anyone with the ways and means to get over it -- are fooling themselves.
And the America that once thought of itself as being truly free, is no longer.
The question is, how can its greatness arise from this?
8
I don't get all these comments saying a wall will "not work" or will "do nothing". If that's the case then why is opposition to it so strong? The military wastes the $20-30 billion a wall would cost at least every 2 years and that doesn't get much opposition at all and a wall is actually a long term investment that would reduce growth in the amount needed for the border patrol. So it's definitely not out of fiscal conservatism. I think it's because it will work. Sure it won't step everyone, but nothing will and it would slow people trying to cross the border down enough that most will be caught. As far as the visa overstay increase that many cite as a reason not to secure the southern border, that in my opinion is a separate issue that we should also be dealing with but in no way precludes measures to increase security on the southern border.
3
The owner's of private property along the U.S. Mexican border do not have to sell it to the federal government at the price the government is willing to pay. They can fight eminent domain all the way to the Supreme Court. It seems like the Republicans who believe in private property being sacrosanct forgot that minor detail. Mexico won't sell their land along the border either because Mexico has strict laws against foreigners owning property. Besides, they want to show Trump he can't boss them around. Who knew building a wall could be so complicated?
7
The wall is such a colossal waste of money. It accomplishes zero. Even if Mexico paid for it, lol, its the most foolhardy governmental proposal ever. It would be like buying a million $1000 toilet seats.
13
Opposition to the wall is a symbolic point; whether it is funded or not has little relevance to anyone's lives (except the contractors who will build it.) Establishing DACA would make a big difference for thousands, and be a foot in the door for immigration reform. Do you want to make a difference for your constituents and show that you can find common ground to govern, or make rhetorical points for a "base" which doesn't even bother to show up to vote when it's not a presidential year?
5
Trump and Republican's sleazy backslapping enterprises have shown the world that bad behavior will be rewarded. Sadly, there are way too many people who love this message.
Racism rampant is all about finding victims to blame rather than solving problems.
Fact is, the way the world is, putting hate and exclusion in front solves absolutely nothing. But there are quite a few people who are happy to hurt "those people" rather than reach for the best in themselves.
I am terrified by the use of prisons and violence to put away people of other colors and other ethnicities and other religions. Private prisons, the school to prison pipeline, and draconian sentencing are all ways to increase voter cheating, along with voter suppression, intimidation, and making voting more difficult for the less privileged by shortening hours and reducing access to polling places and other forms of voting for working stiffs.
Racism rampant is all about finding victims to blame rather than solving problems.
Fact is, the way the world is, putting hate and exclusion in front solves absolutely nothing. But there are quite a few people who are happy to hurt "those people" rather than reach for the best in themselves.
I am terrified by the use of prisons and violence to put away people of other colors and other ethnicities and other religions. Private prisons, the school to prison pipeline, and draconian sentencing are all ways to increase voter cheating, along with voter suppression, intimidation, and making voting more difficult for the less privileged by shortening hours and reducing access to polling places and other forms of voting for working stiffs.
5
@Anderson
Thank you. You're one of the very few who sees where this all is going .... and you have every right to be terrified.
I am as well.
Thank you. You're one of the very few who sees where this all is going .... and you have every right to be terrified.
I am as well.
I support letting states choose to put their health-care budgets into the wall. I think it's important for people to see where their elected officials' priorities are.
8
I think this author has missed the larger point: DACA is a tiny sliver of immigration reform. Enacting DACA means Dreamers have no path for citizenship, and that their parents can still be deported.
Frankly, we should pass DACA, no strings attached. As the author correctly states, there is overwhelming support for it. If there are any concessions, it should either be for the full DREAM Act, or for some small sop on border patrols.
But we have been struggling with the DREAM Act for 15 years, and we have six months. So I say, DACA with maybe a teensy, tiny concession to give Republicans a fig leaf. Or attach it to the almost certainly enormous relief package for Irma.
Frankly, we should pass DACA, no strings attached. As the author correctly states, there is overwhelming support for it. If there are any concessions, it should either be for the full DREAM Act, or for some small sop on border patrols.
But we have been struggling with the DREAM Act for 15 years, and we have six months. So I say, DACA with maybe a teensy, tiny concession to give Republicans a fig leaf. Or attach it to the almost certainly enormous relief package for Irma.
4
What happened to Mexico paying for it anyway? Dems should laugh off funding for the wall by reminding GOP - maybe with a loop video of Trump yelling "who's going to pay for it?" and the crowd responding "Mexico" 50 times - that nobody voted for using taxpayer money to build the wall. If he wants to start building before Mexico pays, he should use his own money.
17
Most construction programs funded by the Federal government count on future revenue streams. I agree that we should hold the president to his promise, but traditionally payment is nor required before construction. If you made that a requirement we would have no toll roads (for example).
2
The wall will increase the value of property along the border and continue to allow visitors to enter the country at ordinary vehicle entry points. The wall is a terrific compromise for immigration reform. Opposing President Trump when he is willing to do the right thing (or at least a better solution) on immigration is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Of course, some at the Daily Beast make their living by saying no to Trump in spite of his deep down New York Democratic nature.
6
Just to be clear, the wall will NOT "increase the value of property along the border". At best it will be neutral to property values, and at worst it will simply deprive U.S. landowners of access to some of their own property when it is cut off beyond the wall due to the variations of topography. That has already occurred with the current fencing.
16
Aside from the fact that border states do not want the wall, the American people who voted for trump did not vote to have American taxpayers pay for it
It's hard to believe that anyone think The Wall is a good idea. It's one of the dumbest ideas I've heard in my entire life. It's absurdly expensive and will accomplish zero. Or maybe less than zero.
No need to swap DACA for wall funding if we balance compassion and the rule of law. Let the DACA young people stay, as they were brought to America as children and we do not visit sins of parents on the children. As a condition of their staying, though, the law-breaking parents need to return to their home countries, with no chance of ever emigrating to the USA.
11
Do a majority of citizen voters really support an open borders immigration policy, or do they simply think that there are better technologies than a wall to protect
sovereignty, e.g. troops on the border and e check ?
sovereignty, e.g. troops on the border and e check ?
1
Whatever happened to "clean" legislation? Draft a bill that deals with the
dreamers and nothing else to meet the six month deadline. No wall debate, no
compromises on any issue unrelated specifically to the situation of dreamers in
jeopardy of losing rights to work or study and of possible deportation. Force an up or down vote to settle the issue once and for all. Additional immigration legislation can be debated and follow in 2018.
dreamers and nothing else to meet the six month deadline. No wall debate, no
compromises on any issue unrelated specifically to the situation of dreamers in
jeopardy of losing rights to work or study and of possible deportation. Force an up or down vote to settle the issue once and for all. Additional immigration legislation can be debated and follow in 2018.
4
There is a rationale for making DACA part of a package of legislation. Granting DACA enrollees amnesty sends a signals to future illegal immigrants that the United States will not deport unauthorized immigrants brought to America by their parents. Citizenship for DACA enrollees should be part of a package should also:
1. authorizes state, county and city police to enforce federal immigration laws;
2. empowers states, counties and cities to make it unlawful for unauthorized immigrants to reside within their jurisdictions;
3. makes E-Verify mandatory nationwide;
4. changes asylum laws to deny asylum to anyone who enters the country illegally;
5. initiates a process to reinterpret or, if necessary, amend the citizenship clause to grant birthright citizenship only to children born to U.S. parents.
1. authorizes state, county and city police to enforce federal immigration laws;
2. empowers states, counties and cities to make it unlawful for unauthorized immigrants to reside within their jurisdictions;
3. makes E-Verify mandatory nationwide;
4. changes asylum laws to deny asylum to anyone who enters the country illegally;
5. initiates a process to reinterpret or, if necessary, amend the citizenship clause to grant birthright citizenship only to children born to U.S. parents.
7
RGV - Illegal immigration can never be stopped or eliminated. It can be slowed - but anyone who comes as a tourist, even if they need a visa to get in, can come to the US and then simply stay - there is simply no easy process to find them once they are here. If I recall correctly, a lot of illegals come here legally (maybe 40%) - and then just never leave. The same goes for virtually every other country in the world.
To not enact immigration reform, for any reason, doesn't do anyone any favors. Better to have them here legally rather than illegally, even if that means we are "condoning" their behavior. But when it comes to Dreamers, they did nothing wrong - their parents did. To punish the Dreamers for their parents actions is beyond cruel.
There are many things we can do - limit their ability to sponsor family members so that they cannot reward their parents for their behavior. Defer their ability to become citizens unless they meet whatever criteria we determine is needed - I'm not in favor of this - but it's an option.
But bottom line - only countries like North Korea can eliminate illegal immigration - and we definitely don't want to become NK.
To not enact immigration reform, for any reason, doesn't do anyone any favors. Better to have them here legally rather than illegally, even if that means we are "condoning" their behavior. But when it comes to Dreamers, they did nothing wrong - their parents did. To punish the Dreamers for their parents actions is beyond cruel.
There are many things we can do - limit their ability to sponsor family members so that they cannot reward their parents for their behavior. Defer their ability to become citizens unless they meet whatever criteria we determine is needed - I'm not in favor of this - but it's an option.
But bottom line - only countries like North Korea can eliminate illegal immigration - and we definitely don't want to become NK.
1
"there is simply no easy process to find them once they are here"
Somehow VISA and MasterCard know the second your payment is late, or you've exceeded your credit limit.
The same technology could be leveraged to monitor VISA holders while in the US. The second the VISA expires, an email is sent to ICE.
Of course, this would actually require politicians wanting secure borders.
Somehow VISA and MasterCard know the second your payment is late, or you've exceeded your credit limit.
The same technology could be leveraged to monitor VISA holders while in the US. The second the VISA expires, an email is sent to ICE.
Of course, this would actually require politicians wanting secure borders.
11
We could reduce illegal immigration to insignificance by empowering states, counties and cities to enforce U.S. immigration laws. Unauthorized immigrants would have to provide proof of citizenship to rent a house or apartment, set up water, electricity and gas hookups, or buy or register a car. States, counties and cities could pass ordinances making it illegal for unauthorized immigrants to reside in their jurisdictions. Congress could pass the required enabling legislation.
3
Agree, never trade the Wall for DACA. But would you agree with the wall if Trump agreed to: enact the Dream Act, get rid of Pruitt at the EPA, Devoss at Education, and Sessions at Justice. and let the democrats fill those positions. It seems worth a try since Trump is like a 5 year old who will do anything to get his way. We know the Wall will never work and will never be fully funded, so I think some major extortion of the President in return for the wall's first billion dollars would be worth it.
2
To pay Trump a billion and a half for DACA seems like a pretty good bargain to me. I've been a Democrat for over 50 years and I shudder every time I read something about how we have to stand on our morals and avoid slippery slopes, etc. What this usually amounts to is having fewer Democrats in office. This guy wants to throw 800,000 human beings under the bus (or, more correctly, out of the country) because of a moral position on the wall? This is exactly like the Progressives who wanted to kill the Health Care Bill because it didn't include a public option. (In that case, it was 30 million under the bus.) Can't we practice practical politics for once instead of everyone locking in on a moral stance? Isn't getting done something sane and productive (passing DACA) moral in and of itself?
4
Ask the Dreamers whether they would take that deal. Counting on congressional action or Trump backing down next March because of poll numbers today is mighty risky. Twenty dead first graders, 80% support, and all of Pres. Obama's vaunted rhetorical skills couldn't get even a token gun control measure passed. You really think the Dreamers will do better?
7
For anyone not paying attention, a 700 mile barrier at the southern border was authorized by Congress and signed into law in 2006.
To wit:
Congress first mandated the construction of a border fence in 1996 as part of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA). IIRIRA called for the construction of a 14-mile, triple-layered fence along the boundary between San Diego and Tijuana.
By 2004, only nine miles of fencing were completed. Congress subsequently passed the Secure Fence Act of 2006. That legislation called for double-layered fencing along the border, augmented by manpower and technology, and directed the Secretary of Homeland security to construct “reinforced fencing along not fewer than 700 miles of the southwest border, in locations where fencing is deemed most practical and effective.”
To wit:
Congress first mandated the construction of a border fence in 1996 as part of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act (IIRIRA). IIRIRA called for the construction of a 14-mile, triple-layered fence along the boundary between San Diego and Tijuana.
By 2004, only nine miles of fencing were completed. Congress subsequently passed the Secure Fence Act of 2006. That legislation called for double-layered fencing along the border, augmented by manpower and technology, and directed the Secretary of Homeland security to construct “reinforced fencing along not fewer than 700 miles of the southwest border, in locations where fencing is deemed most practical and effective.”
7
The border wall is not a practical solution but it is hardly an offense to any core issue of Democrats. If there were a magic paint and all you needed to do was paint a line at the Mexican border and by some unknown effect no person without proper documents could pass over it, 98% of Americans would tell you to paint that line this afternoon. It would be the wall and nearly everyone would embrace it. So if what Tomasky is suggesting is that the particular wall is not a good use of money, okay, but the anticipated impact of such a structure in making illegal crossing more difficult is not very controversial. In fact it is a very good compromise since the chances are pretty good that sooner rather than later Trump and the Republicans would choose not to do it. Compare that with E-verify that would be a very problematic matter for millions already here.
7
Never mind the merits. Tomasky is making a tactical argument, so let's look at his tactical judgment. He is predicting that if the Democrats stand firm, the reluctance to actually deport the Dreamers will make the GOP split at the last minute, with the corporate, pro-immigration Republicans join the Democrats on this issue. If he's wrong, and Congress does nothing, the Dreamers will be at the mercy of who Trump happens to be most angry about at that moment. That's a pretty big gamble to take with other people's lives.
5
Sounds great unless you know, leaving the deal on the table ends up resulting in the worst possible outcome--the end of the DACA. Democrats' greatest strength is that they stand for something, and have a moral compass. If you give up that moral compass for midterm election success you might never find it again. I am not saying "do the deal" but I am saying Dems have to do whatever it takes to ensure DACA is put into legislation. If that means funding "border security" fine.
4
Without border security, which has become an all-compassing term for all enforcement of immigration law, immigration reform of any kind is difficult. The wall (which is really an amplification and augmentation of existing barriers) is also what might be called a confidence-building measure.
12
I cannot imagine even considering a compromise on this issue. The answer to Trump should be NO. Not now not ever.
6
No, no, no wall. As someone living near the border, the wall is an environmental disaster and in invitation for companies to build taller ladders. Or better tunnel diggers. But a compromise for better border security, sure. One thing I don't see mentioned in comments or the article is the role gerrymandering had in the Republican electoral wins beginning in 2010. They didn't necessarily win because enough people agreed with their policies, but because they managed to rig districts so that enough of their voters lived in them to keep them in office. Extreme gerrymandering using computer data on voters and voting patterns and partisan politics is a real threat to American democracy.
8
Excellent comment, our democracy suffers with many challenges but a wall will not fix anything.
3
Gerrymandering is no more a threat now than when Democrats controlled the house in the 60's, 70's and 80's. Technology may be more significant but Democrats have the same access.
2
Oh give it a rest. Whatever party is in power when the census rolls around does the gerrymandering. And Republicans took the House in 2010, before the last census results.
Mr. Tomasky's faith in polls is entertaining.
I have found over the years that the conclusions drawn from polls tend to overhype the readers' biases and have only tenuous connection to the actual data collected for the poll.
Diving down below the headlines frequently reveals a very different assessment.
I have found over the years that the conclusions drawn from polls tend to overhype the readers' biases and have only tenuous connection to the actual data collected for the poll.
Diving down below the headlines frequently reveals a very different assessment.
4
The Democrats should simply insist that the President keep his promising of persuading Mexico to build the wall. He's such an amazing deal-maker, that should not be so difficult.
Would this not be a principled stance "against" the wall?
Would this not be a principled stance "against" the wall?
3
He never said Mexico would "build" the wall. He said that they'd pay for it - and many months prior to the election he clarified that we would pay for it initially and Mexico would eventually indirectly pay for it - whether via a tax on remittances or simply a reduction in American outlays to educate foreigners' children. Your semantic games are not compelling.
3
Mexico will never pay, in any way shape of form. Fortunately, The Wall will never get built, in any way, shape or form.
A heavy tax on remittances would hit Mexico in the purse where it would really hurt. Maybe then they will reform so their citizens stay home and build their country.
DACA for the wall? Such a deal Not likely since it would not force Trump & Sessions to assign Stephen Miller as the Deporter-in-Chief with photos of young people being dragged out of college, work places and homes to be sent off to a country they know little about. The bad PR could also land just before the 2018 mid-terms resulting in large electoral defeats. Plus, we are now becoming aware that some of the Dreamers have children of their own born in the USA as thus citizens, unlike either their parent or grandparents. Quite a mess, so let them swim in it.
2
There are a few comments on using technology to monitor the border, vs an actual wall. This absolutely makes sense. Any attempt to beat that technology would be met with new technology - this is our environment today with most types of security, weaponry. Reps have made the case for massive cost savings of technology. An actual wall is a boondoggle.
Unless our federal government shuts down illegal immigration, and it matters little whether that is done with a wall or not, DACA will not become law. The politicians know very well that their futures as politicians will cease to exist if the illegal immigrant problem is not eliminated for good.
8
The Republicans know that their wealthy donors rely on immigrant labor.
1
The historic blindspot exhibited by Michael Tomasky here is simply astounding. The GOP may have won seats in the two off year elections following Obama's victory in 2008, and the Democrats' congressional sweep in 2006, but let's be honest with ourselves. Those Democratic wins came in the aftermath of a massive financial shock, two wars that were going badly to say the least, and Katrina.
This is why we won, not because most Americans embrace open borders progressivism. And as soon as the American electorate was done punishing the GOP for GW, they started reverting to their traditionalist, moderate, and yes conservative roots.
If we and our representatives try to obstruct on border security, we're going to pay for it in 2018 and in 2020. For anyone who doubts this, consider the following facts.
We've now lost 4 out of 4 post-Trump special elections.
A sitting governor in WV has switched to the GOP.
Our own representatives are jumping to compromise and appear with Trump.
And the GOP primary field is starting to fill in with mini-Trumps.
Meanwhile, our "allies" continue to embarrass us with tantrums over opposing viewpoints in Boston and Berkley, while in NYC they're going after statues of Columbus.
In other words, Trump has more support, far more, than one one-off poll is probably indicating. Did we learn nothing about the risks of reading too much into polls in 2016?
This is why we won, not because most Americans embrace open borders progressivism. And as soon as the American electorate was done punishing the GOP for GW, they started reverting to their traditionalist, moderate, and yes conservative roots.
If we and our representatives try to obstruct on border security, we're going to pay for it in 2018 and in 2020. For anyone who doubts this, consider the following facts.
We've now lost 4 out of 4 post-Trump special elections.
A sitting governor in WV has switched to the GOP.
Our own representatives are jumping to compromise and appear with Trump.
And the GOP primary field is starting to fill in with mini-Trumps.
Meanwhile, our "allies" continue to embarrass us with tantrums over opposing viewpoints in Boston and Berkley, while in NYC they're going after statues of Columbus.
In other words, Trump has more support, far more, than one one-off poll is probably indicating. Did we learn nothing about the risks of reading too much into polls in 2016?
27
Here's what you just said: Americans are by nature xeonophobic and conservative and the only way anything progressive gets done is when a slew of disasters occur under Republican rule causing them to mindlessly pull the lever for the other side.
Now, I happen to agree with that. But your proposed solution is for progressives to stop being progressive. Sure, you'll win then, but win what?
So what solution do I offer? Alas, the only realistic one: leave the country and live somewhere reasonable. Check back in 20 years or so to see if the next generation is any better.
Now, I happen to agree with that. But your proposed solution is for progressives to stop being progressive. Sure, you'll win then, but win what?
So what solution do I offer? Alas, the only realistic one: leave the country and live somewhere reasonable. Check back in 20 years or so to see if the next generation is any better.
2
Except this wall is a huge tax-payer rip-off that will have nothing to do with actual border security.
4
@Progressive Resister, you are that rare commodity - a sane progressive. Conservatives would reluctantly acquiesce to both the Dream Act and a wider amnesty (sans citizenship) for most of those unlawfully present - in exchange for a border wall and the RAISE Act. For liberals to refuse that would be like Arafat refusing the deal he was offered by Ehud Barak. There's a deal in the making - as long as it's not refused by open-borders absolutists who won't concede anything.
6
The wall is stupid, a blunt idea from blunt brains. Enforcing eVerify, as part of a dream act for children, is much harder politically because it would be more effective, but that would be a great idea. The US voting public would like that pair of compromises.
9
Building the wall and enforcing e-Verify are not mutually inclusive.
I will allow that if a e-Verify were used religiously that a wall may not be needed. But, with the constant advocacy of some of our urban leaders that their cities become sanctuaries for the illegals, do you really think that they would be endorsing an aggressive use of a check system that e-Verify represents?
Right...And the sale for the Brooklyn Bridge is slated for next Saturday. Come early.
All of this leads me to the question of just how many illegal...er...undocumented residents are employed by the local and state governments? Are they using e-Verify on each of their applicants?
I will allow that if a e-Verify were used religiously that a wall may not be needed. But, with the constant advocacy of some of our urban leaders that their cities become sanctuaries for the illegals, do you really think that they would be endorsing an aggressive use of a check system that e-Verify represents?
Right...And the sale for the Brooklyn Bridge is slated for next Saturday. Come early.
All of this leads me to the question of just how many illegal...er...undocumented residents are employed by the local and state governments? Are they using e-Verify on each of their applicants?
6
The Trump Presidency is imploding and the Republican Congress is proving to be absolutely and totally unable to do anything. It has long been apparent that Trump is an unhinged, delusional, racist liar and the Republicans in Congress are not far behind.
The idea that the Democrats would bail this man out should be repulsive to any decent human being. But here is Schumer selling out the soul of the Democratic Party for a bowl of Trump gruel!
Everything the Republicans have been selling for the past 30+ years is been shown to be a pack of lies and the American people are starting to see that. This is no time to be bailing Trump out.
The idea that the Democrats would bail this man out should be repulsive to any decent human being. But here is Schumer selling out the soul of the Democratic Party for a bowl of Trump gruel!
Everything the Republicans have been selling for the past 30+ years is been shown to be a pack of lies and the American people are starting to see that. This is no time to be bailing Trump out.
9
Roy, how are the American people starting to "see that"?
What election results can you point to as evidence to support your statements?
What election results can you point to as evidence to support your statements?
2
I know its a hard reality to face.....but we all gotta face it.
DACA, just like the Wall.....is a waste of natiional resources.
Both "the Wall" and DACA are simply drains on the national economy....neither of which serve any valuable national purpose.
Both are Quixotic attempts to assuage some egotistical, moral high ground purpose that is neither productive NOR pragmatic.
Everybody....get off yer stupid HighHorses and get REAL.
DACA, just like the Wall.....is a waste of natiional resources.
Both "the Wall" and DACA are simply drains on the national economy....neither of which serve any valuable national purpose.
Both are Quixotic attempts to assuage some egotistical, moral high ground purpose that is neither productive NOR pragmatic.
Everybody....get off yer stupid HighHorses and get REAL.
4
Can we waste tax dollars on southern border walls when much of our southern coast will need sea walls?
12
The current POTUS is a Terrestrial Embarrassment. If that wall is constructed it will be a monument to a bigot. Unless we elect
George Lopez to replace him !
George Lopez to replace him !
6
The USA needs sea walls not border walls.
14
The USA needs marshes and wetlands, not sea walls.
With sea walls, the only place the water has to go is UP !
With sea walls, the only place the water has to go is UP !
The Dreamers should stay and be protected.
But why not build a wall?
Republicans will use Democrat opposition to build a wall as proof that Liberals care more about illegals than citizens.
What is so bad about a wall?
Do you not have a door in your house or car?
Are we really free to roam like the squirrels in Central Park?
And those rich folk in the story about rich guilt here today.....how about they leave their doors open and we all camp out on their sofas tonight?
But why not build a wall?
Republicans will use Democrat opposition to build a wall as proof that Liberals care more about illegals than citizens.
What is so bad about a wall?
Do you not have a door in your house or car?
Are we really free to roam like the squirrels in Central Park?
And those rich folk in the story about rich guilt here today.....how about they leave their doors open and we all camp out on their sofas tonight?
15
Pelosi and Schumer are master snake charmers. The Dems can get this cobra to do tricks, in exchange for treats. All Trump knows is zero-sum. Chuck and Nancy can teach him "win-win". So long as they don't forget, they're dealing with a cobra.
2
Trump said Mexico would pay for the wall.
Obviously, they will not.
So, it's not up to Congress to fund your wall.
They never said Mexico would pay for it.
When the wall is never built, it's only you who are responsible.
You might have gotten away with being a liar in business, but your lies are going to catch up with you for as long as can maintain your presence in the White House.
Obviously, they will not.
So, it's not up to Congress to fund your wall.
They never said Mexico would pay for it.
When the wall is never built, it's only you who are responsible.
You might have gotten away with being a liar in business, but your lies are going to catch up with you for as long as can maintain your presence in the White House.
4
No decent American will support such a "swap." 75% of us believe in the DACA program. If tRump is so concerned about what the public think, maybe he could start looking at the facts. He's nothing but a blubbering coward.
8
If Trump is so concerned about what the public thinks -- he should stop limiting his whistle-stops to the majority white Republican states that support him.
1
Yes, the border wall is a waste of money but also harmless. It's nothing but a speed bump to illegal border crossings.
Trump wants this wall badly so perhaps Democrats might be able to get a lot for this. In addition to DACA how about infrastructure spending, Obamacare funding, tax reform for middle class rather than wealthy?
Let Trump build his stupid wall. If nothing else it does provide jobs and Democrats can gain some things in return.
Trump wants this wall badly so perhaps Democrats might be able to get a lot for this. In addition to DACA how about infrastructure spending, Obamacare funding, tax reform for middle class rather than wealthy?
Let Trump build his stupid wall. If nothing else it does provide jobs and Democrats can gain some things in return.
3
If you want to know where our Dear Leader is likely to fall on a particular issue, you do not need to look at what's generally popular, humane, Christian, reasonable, logical, or common sensical.
No. You need to look at:
1) Whether Obama has stated a position on the issue, in which case Dear Leader's stance will be 180 degrees therefrom.
2) Whether DL's personal revenue stream will be bigly impacted one way or another.
3) What Sean Hannity, Fox and Friends, Alex Jones, Ann Coulter, and Breibart (i.e. the crazies) are saying on the issue.
Any other considerations are and will be irrelevant to Dear Leader's decision making process.
No. You need to look at:
1) Whether Obama has stated a position on the issue, in which case Dear Leader's stance will be 180 degrees therefrom.
2) Whether DL's personal revenue stream will be bigly impacted one way or another.
3) What Sean Hannity, Fox and Friends, Alex Jones, Ann Coulter, and Breibart (i.e. the crazies) are saying on the issue.
Any other considerations are and will be irrelevant to Dear Leader's decision making process.
6
This would be a terrible trade DACA for the Wall. The Democratics need new people and new ideas. What about the money we need now for the two Hurricanes and infrastructure. The Wall is a waste of "taxpayers money. Mexico is not going to pay for it. This country is in desperate need for intelligent leadership on both sides.
5
There are concessions Democrats can make besides funding for The Wall (I'd snidely remind voters that Mexico is supposed to pay for that sucker anyways). The Wall may not have pubic backing, but the American people do want secure borders. So in exchange for DACA, they get more well trained agents? Sure. Surveillance drones? I'm on board. Pressure on "sanctuary" cities? I'll even go along with that. But Democrats need to hold strong on opposing a giant physical structure that symbolizes everything wrong with Trump's jingoistic tendencies. If it goes up and serves as a reminder of US isolationism and racism for generations to come, I want to know that my party resisted every step of the way.
3
When people supported the "building the wall" - they saw the "wall" as a rhetorical device for stricter immigration controls. And "Mexico will pay for it" meant to them that Mexico will cooperate more with our efforts to restrict illegal immigration.
When they finally realized the "wall" literally means a wall and "Mexico will pay for it" literally meant Mexico will write us a check, many immediately concluded that that's one of the dumbest things they ever heard and the support died down as expected.
With respect to obstructionism... Whether or not you support obstructionism, Republican obstructionism clearly de-prioritized competency of their elected officials. Republicans ended up picking representatives that are incapable of doing anything else other than obstruct and the result of that is Republican floundering of the last 8-9 months.
There is a reason trump went with dems - it's because republicans cann't deliver with majorities everywhere. Dems may be losers, but republicans are chokers - pure and simple - they take the lead but can't do anything serious with it. Let's see if they can even pass their tax cuts - the only thing they are supposed to be capable of.
When they finally realized the "wall" literally means a wall and "Mexico will pay for it" literally meant Mexico will write us a check, many immediately concluded that that's one of the dumbest things they ever heard and the support died down as expected.
With respect to obstructionism... Whether or not you support obstructionism, Republican obstructionism clearly de-prioritized competency of their elected officials. Republicans ended up picking representatives that are incapable of doing anything else other than obstruct and the result of that is Republican floundering of the last 8-9 months.
There is a reason trump went with dems - it's because republicans cann't deliver with majorities everywhere. Dems may be losers, but republicans are chokers - pure and simple - they take the lead but can't do anything serious with it. Let's see if they can even pass their tax cuts - the only thing they are supposed to be capable of.
2
Representative Will Hurd of TX introduced a SMART Wall bill in July. I listened to him a week or so ago on PBS Newshour. He made sense. No concrete, no physical barriers. Use technology. Cost, $500 thousand per mile versus $24.5 million per mile. Total cost $1 billion.
Listened to Senator Durbin last evening, he was talking about something similar. DACA is too important to "not" negotiate. And most if not all 36 Texas Republican Representatives think Trump’s wall is a "dumb" wall.
Years ago Congress had a concept that seemed to work. Not everyone one was happy, there were wins and losses on both sides of the aisle. They called it “compromise”.
DACA is too important to stonewall. If the Democrats just say “no” without so much as offering some alternative, it could very well blow up in their faces!
Listened to Senator Durbin last evening, he was talking about something similar. DACA is too important to "not" negotiate. And most if not all 36 Texas Republican Representatives think Trump’s wall is a "dumb" wall.
Years ago Congress had a concept that seemed to work. Not everyone one was happy, there were wins and losses on both sides of the aisle. They called it “compromise”.
DACA is too important to stonewall. If the Democrats just say “no” without so much as offering some alternative, it could very well blow up in their faces!
2
I could favor increased border security as a deal to shelter the Dreamers.
But a wall isn't border security. History shows that walls are a target for breach. Further, our nation has been attacked by people who overstayed visas, not by those coming from the south and crossing our border with Mexico.
Building a 'big, beautiful wall' is just emotional symbolism ginned up for cheap votes.
So no trading DACA for a wall. And as the author says, why make such a deal when Americans favor sheltering Dreamers and disfavor a wall?
But a wall isn't border security. History shows that walls are a target for breach. Further, our nation has been attacked by people who overstayed visas, not by those coming from the south and crossing our border with Mexico.
Building a 'big, beautiful wall' is just emotional symbolism ginned up for cheap votes.
So no trading DACA for a wall. And as the author says, why make such a deal when Americans favor sheltering Dreamers and disfavor a wall?
2
Perhaps a better idea would be this compromise: Make DACA permanent law in exchange for disaster aid to Florida.
1
I agree with everything but the last sentence, which seems to be gratuitous rhetoric.
But NO on the wall means NO funding it. That's elementary.
But NO on the wall means NO funding it. That's elementary.
1
Lets ask the DACA kids if they'll make that trade? If you hold out and don't compromise and win political points but these kids lose their status is that really winning?
3
While I agree with all the fundamentals against building "the wall", this is actually the only thing that I don't think Trump can let go of. He likes to build things and then put his name on it.
So instead of Democrats looking at "the wall" thing as something they would never consider supporting, they should instead think of it as "The Only Thing That Matters To Trump".
Once you know what his sweet spot is, you can exploit it. Because if he leaves office having built that wall, he will be happy. So give it to him but in droplets. For each piece of the wall, get a major concession.
And there are many things that Democrats want and that are far more important than building a wall. This is "The Art of The Deal" at its very heart. Perhaps 10% of the wall for Dreamers. Another percentage for real immigration reform. Another percentage for appropriate environmental protection. And brick for say a more moderate supreme court nominee.
In the end, he can walk away as the "Builder" of that all important "Wall". But with it we might have a better government. I for one would accept the tradeoff.
So instead of Democrats looking at "the wall" thing as something they would never consider supporting, they should instead think of it as "The Only Thing That Matters To Trump".
Once you know what his sweet spot is, you can exploit it. Because if he leaves office having built that wall, he will be happy. So give it to him but in droplets. For each piece of the wall, get a major concession.
And there are many things that Democrats want and that are far more important than building a wall. This is "The Art of The Deal" at its very heart. Perhaps 10% of the wall for Dreamers. Another percentage for real immigration reform. Another percentage for appropriate environmental protection. And brick for say a more moderate supreme court nominee.
In the end, he can walk away as the "Builder" of that all important "Wall". But with it we might have a better government. I for one would accept the tradeoff.
3
The Dramers are being held hostage and that's exactly how the Democrats should put it.
The author refers to a "principled case against Mr. Trump's wall," but he doesn't really say what that case is. I personally think the wall is a waste of money, but that's not a "principled case" so much as a practical case.
Sensible people question whether a wall contributes enough border security to be worth the cost. In most areas, fencing with motion sensors and other technology is more than sufficient. In some areas, like the Rio Grande canyon in Big Bend National Park, natural geology has already created barriers much more formidable than any wall could be.
A Gulf-to-Pacific wall would cost tens of billions of dollars. If Democrats can get DACA legislation for $1.5 billion toward a border barrier, that would be a major victory for decency and common sense, and it would be a very small down-payment on a wall. Trump would need to come back for similar amounts of money another dozen times or so, and the precedent would have been set - Democrats could trade the fiscal appropriation for expansions of DACA. After all, DACA covers only those who were born after June 15, 1981, arrived in the U.S. by 2007 and were under 16 years old when they got here.
If Trump and the Republicans don't want to expand DACA in future negotiations, Democrats don't have to agree to further funding for the wall. At that point Trump can decide whether he really needs a coast-to-coast wall, or can make do with a few stretches of fencing.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
Sensible people question whether a wall contributes enough border security to be worth the cost. In most areas, fencing with motion sensors and other technology is more than sufficient. In some areas, like the Rio Grande canyon in Big Bend National Park, natural geology has already created barriers much more formidable than any wall could be.
A Gulf-to-Pacific wall would cost tens of billions of dollars. If Democrats can get DACA legislation for $1.5 billion toward a border barrier, that would be a major victory for decency and common sense, and it would be a very small down-payment on a wall. Trump would need to come back for similar amounts of money another dozen times or so, and the precedent would have been set - Democrats could trade the fiscal appropriation for expansions of DACA. After all, DACA covers only those who were born after June 15, 1981, arrived in the U.S. by 2007 and were under 16 years old when they got here.
If Trump and the Republicans don't want to expand DACA in future negotiations, Democrats don't have to agree to further funding for the wall. At that point Trump can decide whether he really needs a coast-to-coast wall, or can make do with a few stretches of fencing.
politicsbyeccehomo.wordpress.com
6
the idea of a wall is so 1900's. this man in charge is in such need of a WIN cause all the winning he has been accomplishing up till now is starting to wane for his inner core fan base. (The space between his ears) if any Dem was to back this silliness i would think their acceptance with the party will come to an end. Democrats this is your wake up and be counted time. No to this moronic idea.
1
Walls are ugly and they don't work. We should secure our borders using drones and partnering with border agents from Mexico. We have the right to secure our borders but let's be smart about it.
Democrats need to listen to their voters. Otherwise Republicans won't be the only ones in trouble during the midterms. Voters are sick and tired of not being heard.
The American people stood behind the Democrats over the ACA. We're making our voices heard over DACA and the border wall. Democrats might be a minority but they hold a lot of power. Hopefully they don't do anything stupid and squander it with foolish compromises as they have in the past.
Democrats need to listen to their voters. Otherwise Republicans won't be the only ones in trouble during the midterms. Voters are sick and tired of not being heard.
The American people stood behind the Democrats over the ACA. We're making our voices heard over DACA and the border wall. Democrats might be a minority but they hold a lot of power. Hopefully they don't do anything stupid and squander it with foolish compromises as they have in the past.
2
No, the Dems shouldn't swap DACA for a wall. A wall is unbelievably stupid. But what they should swap for is the thing that neither party wants to swap for, which is mandatory eVerify and hefty employer penalties and /or prosecutions. Keep in mind that immigration issues were a solid part of Trump's win, and a huge factor in Democratic losses in the last 2 or 3 elections. And again the Dems are giving the appearance of going to bat for immigrants while ignoring working class Americans. The potential of the party falling on its sword over the issue (yet again) is not negligible.
15
Obviously, there is no principled case against border defense. For example, Israel has erected a highly successful fence along its Egyptian border to keep out economic migrants, or as Israel officially calls them: "illegal infiltrators."
Why doesn't America deserve what Israel enjoys?
Why doesn't America deserve what Israel enjoys?
9
There is already fencing on a lot of the border. It isn't effective in stopping illegal immigration.
And Trump's proposed wall wouldn't work either. See https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work
And Trump's proposed wall wouldn't work either. See https://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/why-wall-wont-work
Wait, what? I thought Trump wanted Mexico to pay for the wall, which is largely meaningless now Mexico is the manufacturing destination of the world. Look, illegal immigration is largely a function of the economy. A constraint of the home builders in the last few years is because the skilled craftsmen have decided to build homes in Mexico and the little incentive here in the U.S. The decimation of mining and other manufacturing jobs will not be affected by illegal immigration. So there may be people sneaking into this country working as cooks and busboys, it will impact the overall economy not an iota. On the other hand, DACA is a cost free investment for generations to come.
Any businessperson will tell you it is a bad trade. Worse than bad trade, a double jeopardy, really!
Any businessperson will tell you it is a bad trade. Worse than bad trade, a double jeopardy, really!
2
If anything that should be swapped with DACA it should be the end of birthright citizenship or anchor babies being born here and automatically receiving citizenship. At least one parent should be an American in order to get this.
As it is it's abused and taken advantage of by too many. Currently there are over 4 million anchor babies receiving welfare/medical/food/housing benefits today.
As it is it's abused and taken advantage of by too many. Currently there are over 4 million anchor babies receiving welfare/medical/food/housing benefits today.
8
I agree with this. Trump fouls everything he touches; getting in bed with him is dangerous. I would love some bi-partisanship, but not with Trump: it will not end well.
3
Well then, you can wait until 2025 and compromise with President Pence.
4
Trump, the liar, said the wall would be paid for by Mexico. It won't be and we shouldn't be paying for it either. Democrats must remind people regularly that this Trump lie must not be overcome with our money.
2
If the Democratic Party agrees to participate or cooperate with building this wall, they will give up the moral right to call this idea what it is: immoral, un-American, and deeply, profoundly stupid.
It won't work, it's ridiculously expensive, especially in terms of upkeep, and on a more fundamental level, it is simply wrongheaded. We shouldn't be building walls, we should be building our bridges and roads.
If the Democratic Party chooses to participate in this, they confirm what many of us have suspected about them all along; that they will compromise for compromise's sake. They will have demonstrated that they want Confederate statues to come down, but they will cooperate in building a monument to racism and government waste along our Southern border.
DACA matters. But we don't need to compromise with this vulgar clown to protect it. Why give him a win unnecessarily? For once, Democrats, show some spine, at least when you are clearly in the right, and have the public strongly on your side.
It won't work, it's ridiculously expensive, especially in terms of upkeep, and on a more fundamental level, it is simply wrongheaded. We shouldn't be building walls, we should be building our bridges and roads.
If the Democratic Party chooses to participate in this, they confirm what many of us have suspected about them all along; that they will compromise for compromise's sake. They will have demonstrated that they want Confederate statues to come down, but they will cooperate in building a monument to racism and government waste along our Southern border.
DACA matters. But we don't need to compromise with this vulgar clown to protect it. Why give him a win unnecessarily? For once, Democrats, show some spine, at least when you are clearly in the right, and have the public strongly on your side.
1
Without compromise, DACA is dead. Those kids will be deported or remain illegal and be persecuted for the rest of their lives.
4
Let me say this first. I don't like humans but even I know we cannot afford risking innocent People's life in exange to "principles". I see no heart and only political caculations in your argument. Really? Of course you can think this way because you are previliged. Trump is unstable and the pivot will be over sooner or later. In fact, he is vulnerable to manipulation because of his nature. Give him what he wants, praise him and show up in his rallies. Before you know, he might be on your side.
I said in the very beginning of his presidency that he could be a pleasant surprise to Democrats. It is really up to Democrats how to make it happen. Don't think he is cornered so he will be defeated. Instead, think this is a great opportunity by offering him an olive branch. The reality is Democrats are the minority and Trump will most likely win his second term. Liberals may think differently but democratic socialism is only popular in their ivory towers. What this country really needs is democratic capitalism. What we have today is crony capitalism! Unfortunately, liberals got it so wrong!
I said in the very beginning of his presidency that he could be a pleasant surprise to Democrats. It is really up to Democrats how to make it happen. Don't think he is cornered so he will be defeated. Instead, think this is a great opportunity by offering him an olive branch. The reality is Democrats are the minority and Trump will most likely win his second term. Liberals may think differently but democratic socialism is only popular in their ivory towers. What this country really needs is democratic capitalism. What we have today is crony capitalism! Unfortunately, liberals got it so wrong!
2
How soon we all forget ( especially for the press and pundits )
There already was and is a ''deal'' ( a bipartisan one )
The Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 (S.744) was a proposed immigration reform bill introduced by Sen. Charles Schumer (D-NY) in the United States Senate and co-sponsored by the other seven members of the "Gang of Eight", a bipartisan group of U.S.Senators who wrote and negotiated the bill. It was introduced into the Senate of the 113th United States Congress on April 16, 2013.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just reintroduce the bill .
There already was and is a ''deal'' ( a bipartisan one )
The Border Security, Economic Opportunity, and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013 (S.744) was a proposed immigration reform bill introduced by Sen. Charles Schumer (D-NY) in the United States Senate and co-sponsored by the other seven members of the "Gang of Eight", a bipartisan group of U.S.Senators who wrote and negotiated the bill. It was introduced into the Senate of the 113th United States Congress on April 16, 2013.
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Just reintroduce the bill .
2
That bill was terrible and deserved to die. It offered a sweeping amnesty with no numerical limit upon those seeking said amnesty, would only reduce illegal immigration by 50% (if and only if the enforcement measures included in the bill were implemented) and more than doubled legal immigration. The knock on effects of the bill included a small "paycut" for our most vulnerable citizens and a huge expansion in income inequality as detailed in the CBO report. So, the bill was just another amnesty in the mold of the failed 1986 IRCA. Who on Earth is stupid enough to repeat failed policy and expect a different result? Look no further than Washington.
1
If Trump has taken DACA hostage, and there's a real discussion of rewarding him for it with a wall or anything else, then this will be only the first of a long list of indecencies and outrages perpetrated on the rest of us in future. Casual cruelty and deeply crude self-interest are pretty much the preferred method of this president. When his numbers are sagging, he will shore up his base with more and more tricks like this.
It's really nice to share bipartisan deals with Trump for the good of the country. We shouldn't forget though, that in striking hostage deals with this president, his backers are literally white supremacists, neo-nazis, and the Klan.
Are those the partners that anyone can overlook and get along with - even just briefly for an affirming moment or two?
It's really nice to share bipartisan deals with Trump for the good of the country. We shouldn't forget though, that in striking hostage deals with this president, his backers are literally white supremacists, neo-nazis, and the Klan.
Are those the partners that anyone can overlook and get along with - even just briefly for an affirming moment or two?
No need for this. Let Dems propose swapping DACA for immediate and concurrent deportation of DACA recipient parents who brought DACA kid here illegally. No chance of return. That law will pass Congess unanimously.
5
Self-proclaimed fiscal conservatives who would push, today, to fund a border wall have lost their minds. A wall between the United States and Mexico is, in the best of times, an absurdity. These aren't the best of times.
Houston is under water. Florida is bracing for a disaster. Western states are in flames (today in my town, the outside air is too hazardous to breathe). Who knows how many elected officials proclaim that taxes are too high and must be lowered? And even with all that, money for a stupid WALL is actually being discussed. Absolute insanity.
If the wall is no necessary and tax dollars so precious, dare to trade Houston cleanup for DACA. Priorities, people!!!
Houston is under water. Florida is bracing for a disaster. Western states are in flames (today in my town, the outside air is too hazardous to breathe). Who knows how many elected officials proclaim that taxes are too high and must be lowered? And even with all that, money for a stupid WALL is actually being discussed. Absolute insanity.
If the wall is no necessary and tax dollars so precious, dare to trade Houston cleanup for DACA. Priorities, people!!!
1
As a Democrat, I don't care about a "principled case against the wall." There is no such thing because the wall is stupid in and of itself. First of all, many of our undocumented workers come through Florida and work their way to wherever their seasonal farm work is. Second, anybody hear of boats? If you think the Coast Guard is sufficient, think again, even they will tell you this wall is a waste of money.
Our history of decades upon decades of unchecked immigration has happened for one reason: folks can get work here. Employers don't look at the documentation the workers bring with them because they don't want to know. We have a wonderful government program called e-Verify which everybody ignores because it's not universally mandatory.
Want to spend the money effectively? First, accept that those already here illegally are here to stay, like it or not, unless they are criminals. Give every undocumented resident a set period of time to register with the government, and if they don't, too bad, they're out. Make e-Verify mandatory and give every ICE agent authority to walk into any business or any job site and audit the documentation for every worker. Hiring undocumented workers? Fines AND jail time for you.
Sound draconian? Yes, but for the first time the measures will be applied to the EMPLOYERS. Then, the hypocrisy of all this nonsense will finally end.
Our history of decades upon decades of unchecked immigration has happened for one reason: folks can get work here. Employers don't look at the documentation the workers bring with them because they don't want to know. We have a wonderful government program called e-Verify which everybody ignores because it's not universally mandatory.
Want to spend the money effectively? First, accept that those already here illegally are here to stay, like it or not, unless they are criminals. Give every undocumented resident a set period of time to register with the government, and if they don't, too bad, they're out. Make e-Verify mandatory and give every ICE agent authority to walk into any business or any job site and audit the documentation for every worker. Hiring undocumented workers? Fines AND jail time for you.
Sound draconian? Yes, but for the first time the measures will be applied to the EMPLOYERS. Then, the hypocrisy of all this nonsense will finally end.
6
The Democrats don't even need to think about elections to figure this one out. They can simply apply plain old cost and benefit policy analysis (imagine that!). The wall won't make a whit of difference regarding immigration or employment, except for the actual contractors who build it - and they could just as well build bridges, or something else we'd actually use. Complete waste of money.
On the other hand, enacting DACA into legislation would keep nearly a million young, productive, law-abiding people in the country. These people precisely fit the profile of immigrants that all parties, for good reason, claim to want to come to the USA. What could be simpler than accepting the work, entrepreneurship and tax dollars of those who are already here? What could be more wasteful than pushing them into the shadowy world of informal labor, or more stupid yet, trying to deport them?
If the Democrats can't handle this one calmly, quickly and unanimously, then they really do need to fold their tent and make way for a new political party.
On the other hand, enacting DACA into legislation would keep nearly a million young, productive, law-abiding people in the country. These people precisely fit the profile of immigrants that all parties, for good reason, claim to want to come to the USA. What could be simpler than accepting the work, entrepreneurship and tax dollars of those who are already here? What could be more wasteful than pushing them into the shadowy world of informal labor, or more stupid yet, trying to deport them?
If the Democrats can't handle this one calmly, quickly and unanimously, then they really do need to fold their tent and make way for a new political party.
2
I trust the pros from Dover, Pelosi and Schumer, or as Trump now refers to them: Nancy and Chuck. If I were a betting man I'd place it all on N and C to win.
DD
Manhattan
DD
Manhattan
2
If the Democrats vote to fund a physical wall than they will have lost a campaign issue because any discussion of the wall will lead back to "you voted for it too" just as the votes for the Gulf War came back to haunt Democrats for voted for it (like Clinton).
The ad I want to see is:
Open - Donald Trump standing before his chanting supporters "Who will pay for the wall?" Cutting to the resounding response: "Mexico!!!"
"Who?" Trump repeats. The thunderous response "Mexico will!!!"
Cut to Republicans voting "yea" on the wall"
Cut to taxpayer filling out a 1040 - "Who's paying for Trump's wall?" The response. "We are".
The ad I want to see is:
Open - Donald Trump standing before his chanting supporters "Who will pay for the wall?" Cutting to the resounding response: "Mexico!!!"
"Who?" Trump repeats. The thunderous response "Mexico will!!!"
Cut to Republicans voting "yea" on the wall"
Cut to taxpayer filling out a 1040 - "Who's paying for Trump's wall?" The response. "We are".
1
Do the deal!
It was Napoleon who supposedly coined the phrase “if your enemy is about to make a mistake, don’t stop him”. The wall is a loser and will never have more support than the little it has right now. Like the bratty child who whines for three month about a specific Christmas toy, only to lose interest fifteen minutes after he unwraps it, Trump and his base will lose interest in this too. Build a small section, put people to work (hopefully not the undocumented) and in five years this will be a kitschy tourist attraction with vendors selling “Trump’s Folly” t-shirts. What an appropriate legacy.
A “legal” DACA however, is an opening for a rational immigration policy that acknowledges that 11 million people will never be deported, so let’s give them a path to legal status if they meet the same DACA standards and pay a small penalty for their illegal action.
It was Napoleon who supposedly coined the phrase “if your enemy is about to make a mistake, don’t stop him”. The wall is a loser and will never have more support than the little it has right now. Like the bratty child who whines for three month about a specific Christmas toy, only to lose interest fifteen minutes after he unwraps it, Trump and his base will lose interest in this too. Build a small section, put people to work (hopefully not the undocumented) and in five years this will be a kitschy tourist attraction with vendors selling “Trump’s Folly” t-shirts. What an appropriate legacy.
A “legal” DACA however, is an opening for a rational immigration policy that acknowledges that 11 million people will never be deported, so let’s give them a path to legal status if they meet the same DACA standards and pay a small penalty for their illegal action.
2
Rich Moore, very well stated. Pass a dream act and appease Trump. Passing a DREAM bill makes a big difference to many people. Michael Tomasky is the democratic version of the tea-party. Let's move forward.
People do not deserve rewards for breaking the law...for themselves or for their children.
No DACA and enforce our existing laws.
No DACA and enforce our existing laws.
4
These GOP denunciations of DT's "deal on debt with the devil Dems" ring pretty hollow as long as McConnell and Ryan still have the power to block anything that requires legislation. Dorothy, give these lions their medals.
What the Democrats should be doing is crafting immigration legislation and getting it out there before the Republicans can. This legislation should address the problems with the DACA program (for example, it currently lacks granting any kind of permanent status). The wall is a stupid idea - not least of which is that it will not work, there are just too many ways for people to cross the border (tunnels, the thousands of trucks crossing the border under NAFTA, people who over stay their visas, by sea). Immigration reform should start by looking at all the people who profit by being able to hire people who are here illegally. By giving money to the wall project, the Democrats will be abandoning common sense and fiscal responsibility. Even worse, they will supporting one of Trumps most divisive campaign slogans - and that's hardly a compromise.
53
DACA for the wall sure! Gives us DACA and we will match funding for the wall with Mexico 50/50. How could the art of the dealer turn that down.
The Dreamers are already in the United States and are living the American way of life by assimilation and customs, if not by birth. Hence, the president's border wall will serve no purpose. Perhaps a barrier would be useful to keep out the likes of Harvey and Irma, truly destructive forces that mean direct harm to Americans. It is DACA that makes America greater and grander, not a silly wall, the funding of which could be put to much better use by Congress.
3
The writer used the word "pragmatism", implying that it is a method to get tit for tat. This is a very superficial definition or use of the rich philosophy espoused by John Dewey and others. I ask the writer to rethink his definition and use of pragmatic thinking.
1
The wall is folly, pure and simple: a monument to America's fear of the other. It would also be ineffective unless, once built, it was augmented with a force of border guards much larger than what we currently have. On the other hand, if it is built, I predict that it will soon become a world class exhibit of culturally diverse graffiti and other art. It will also be very expensive to build. On the other hand, at least some of that expense will end up in workers' pockets and thence into the economy. Bottom line: the wall, while stupid, will have mixed effects, none of them horrible. On the other hand, taking healthcare away from millions, or deporting people raised in America who have been participating in positive ways in our society, as well as a raft of other things, they will have widespread harsh, serious effects. Comparing deporting the DREAMers or destroying the healthcare system to building the wall is like comparing a hurricane to a dust devil.
Therefore, I disagree with the article. I believe that a deal that included Democrat concession on the wall *could* be worth consideration. Because of its cost, inconvenience, and the degree of international embarrassment that would result from the wall, the price should be high, but because of its ultimate inconsequence for either good or bad, it should be on the table.
Therefore, I disagree with the article. I believe that a deal that included Democrat concession on the wall *could* be worth consideration. Because of its cost, inconvenience, and the degree of international embarrassment that would result from the wall, the price should be high, but because of its ultimate inconsequence for either good or bad, it should be on the table.
Nice piece, but... it's not clear exactly how voters rewarded obstruction in the 2014 Congressional election. In a word: gerrymandering. https://www.thenation.com/article/gerrymandering-rigged-2014-elections-r...
DACA with a path for citizenship for eVerify and a few thousand more ICE agents seems like an acceptable compromise.
1
Balderdash! Hooray President Trump. He and his administration have broken through the monumental congressional gridlock that has bewildered the previous administration and frustrated the current one. Finally a bill certain to cement the legality of "DACA" children. Will the Congress "rise" to the occasion? They must. The President awaits a bill that he will proudly put his signature on and one that will protect those who essentially are already Americans.
I'd take DACA becoming law in exchange for the weak border. The DACA kids know no other home and it's just plain wrong to deport them. Majority are productive in their communities. In this hyper-partisan atmosphere, we have to take what we can get. Even if it's with an incompetent President.
Amen. This big, beautiful wall is the biggest, most absurd waste of Money since " Star Wars". NOT, the movie, but Reagans boondoggle. It's the new Confederate Monument, writ LARGE. Just say NO.
1
"Voters rarely punish [obstruction] ... They more often reward it. Look at how the Republicans fared in the two off-year elections during Barack Obama’s tenure. In 2010, they took six Senate seats and 63 House seats, recapturing control of that body. In 2014, they gained just 13 in the House — they’d about maxed out there — but picked up a whopping nine Senate seats."
Apparently GOP organization, discipline, and election campaigns -- all paid for by the very wealthy -- have nothing to do with bringing about these election results. Just policies the voters like to reward. Or perhaps Mr Thomasky has either never read or does not believe "Tentacles of Rage." (Harper's Magazine - September 2004)
Apparently GOP organization, discipline, and election campaigns -- all paid for by the very wealthy -- have nothing to do with bringing about these election results. Just policies the voters like to reward. Or perhaps Mr Thomasky has either never read or does not believe "Tentacles of Rage." (Harper's Magazine - September 2004)
1
Donald Trump is playing nice with Democrats, briefly, and parading as a champion of bipartisanship because he's finally (almost) grasped that hurricanes are real, that they batter and flood even the homes of his supporters, that these supporters will expect assistance from the government, which costs money, and that he has been ridiculed by the press for claiming falsely that he observed the destruction caused by Harvey "firsthand," and for boasting about the size of the crowd that gathered to listen to him speak in a dry and secure town ... a good distance from Houston.
Trump's apparent readiness to cut deals with the Democrats will blow away soon, when TV coverage of Harvey and Irma faded out, and he's stung by some brand new insult from the press.
He's not a cooperative man. Not a bipartisan man. Not honorable, thoughtful, honest, not compassionate, not reliable. He's a sleazy opportunistic performer, and that Wall he wants will cost about 15 times more than he's claiming.
Democrats who trust that Donald Trump will remember and stick with any cooperative agreement risk being exposed as dupes.
Yes. Resist Trump. Cut deals with those Republicans who have proven honorable and serious. Ignore Trump the Stay-Puft White Man, McConnell the muddy big bottom-feeding catfish, and Ryan the sleek viper.
I expect Schumer and Pelosi know all this. They're experienced. They've learned how and when to smile for the cameras and (I hope) how to Make a Deal.
Trump's apparent readiness to cut deals with the Democrats will blow away soon, when TV coverage of Harvey and Irma faded out, and he's stung by some brand new insult from the press.
He's not a cooperative man. Not a bipartisan man. Not honorable, thoughtful, honest, not compassionate, not reliable. He's a sleazy opportunistic performer, and that Wall he wants will cost about 15 times more than he's claiming.
Democrats who trust that Donald Trump will remember and stick with any cooperative agreement risk being exposed as dupes.
Yes. Resist Trump. Cut deals with those Republicans who have proven honorable and serious. Ignore Trump the Stay-Puft White Man, McConnell the muddy big bottom-feeding catfish, and Ryan the sleek viper.
I expect Schumer and Pelosi know all this. They're experienced. They've learned how and when to smile for the cameras and (I hope) how to Make a Deal.
What this Op-Ed misses is that it's not about DACA and it was never about a wall. Those are just PR pretexts. It was (and remains) all about... power.
What's the difference between Trump and Pence? Pence is (to coin a phrase) the nothing burger. Trump is the pattie. When you ask the question - where's the beef? - Trump's the beef. Trump's the beef because with Bannon's clever assistance (and his own malevolence) Trump created an energetic base for himself.
The recent gotcha meeting with Congressional Republicans telegraphed the fact that Trump, facing Mueller's investigation, is willing to wangle deals with the Democrats who - if Trump were impeached - would potentially have a harder time with the man who has no base - Mike Pence.
Trump has the current ability to strike terror into the hearts of Ryan and McConnell with the threat of mobilizing his Tea Party base to unseat their allies in 2018. Pence? You must be joking.
Would the Democrats vote to get rid of a deal-making Trump only to replace him with the Republican puppy dog Pence? Probably not.
We don't have the Democrats versus the Republicans. We have the Democrats, the Republicans, and the Trump Party. Not to mention the fringe crazies pursuing their own agendas.
Contrary to McConnell's wish dream - Trump is no amateur. Unlike Bannon - he's no ideologue. He's an opportunist in the pursuit of self-aggrandizement and with that - power.
Expect more violations to the conventional playbook in the coming months.
What's the difference between Trump and Pence? Pence is (to coin a phrase) the nothing burger. Trump is the pattie. When you ask the question - where's the beef? - Trump's the beef. Trump's the beef because with Bannon's clever assistance (and his own malevolence) Trump created an energetic base for himself.
The recent gotcha meeting with Congressional Republicans telegraphed the fact that Trump, facing Mueller's investigation, is willing to wangle deals with the Democrats who - if Trump were impeached - would potentially have a harder time with the man who has no base - Mike Pence.
Trump has the current ability to strike terror into the hearts of Ryan and McConnell with the threat of mobilizing his Tea Party base to unseat their allies in 2018. Pence? You must be joking.
Would the Democrats vote to get rid of a deal-making Trump only to replace him with the Republican puppy dog Pence? Probably not.
We don't have the Democrats versus the Republicans. We have the Democrats, the Republicans, and the Trump Party. Not to mention the fringe crazies pursuing their own agendas.
Contrary to McConnell's wish dream - Trump is no amateur. Unlike Bannon - he's no ideologue. He's an opportunist in the pursuit of self-aggrandizement and with that - power.
Expect more violations to the conventional playbook in the coming months.
I agree. Don't help historically-unpopular Don to dig himself out of this one. DACA isn't going anywhere. 6 months from now the media will be chomping at the bit to capture the first few images of ICE goons dragging scientists out of labs by the hair and body slamming them to the pavement. Siblings crying as older sister, the one not US-born, is handcuffed and put on a prison bus. That will absolutely dominate the news for weeks - human dimension, economic dimensions, business leaders speaking out, mass protests. All in time for midterms to heat up. I mean mean come on, Republicans will practically be falling over one another to prove they saved DACA on their own.
Instead of a wall that won't keep determined people away, the government should crack down on the American employers who illegally hire, and underpay, undocumented workers.
I heard a man bragging to another that he received a huge construction project contract that included funds for $25 hourly worker wages. Instead, he hired desperate undocumented workers and paid them $5 an hour. "I just put the rest in my pocket," he laughed.
I heard a man bragging to another that he received a huge construction project contract that included funds for $25 hourly worker wages. Instead, he hired desperate undocumented workers and paid them $5 an hour. "I just put the rest in my pocket," he laughed.
3
Congress should reject Trump's wall on purely pragmatic grounds -- it has virtually no chance of reducing illegal immigration, and equally little chance of enhancing border security against drug smuggling or terrorism. Federal immigration officials recently estimated that 629,000 undocumented immigrants enter this country every year by overstaying tourist or student visas. That number is sharply higher than previous estimates. So in all probability building The Wall will merely redirect undocumented immgrants from the border to U.S. airports, which are, after all, a safer way to travel. Trump's border wall is ridiculous -- a monster boondoggle.
This whole 'compromise' business bothers me. Compromise what? I can do something right if you can do something wrong? That's the deal?
2
I don't agree with Trump about very many things, but I do think it would be good if Trump would swap DACA for a bi-partisan commitment to prepare a comprehensive, iron-clad immigration policy that also eliminates "birthright citizenship."
I don't often agree with the far right either, but when they call these birthright kids "anchor babies" they have hit on a very descriptive term. This is a senseless policy that only encourages abuse of our immigration system.
I don't often agree with the far right either, but when they call these birthright kids "anchor babies" they have hit on a very descriptive term. This is a senseless policy that only encourages abuse of our immigration system.
7
No deals. Dems should refuse to vote for anything the GOP supports that requires 60 votes in the Senate until the Dream Act is put to a vote. Every appointment should be slow walked. This Administration has not taken one single positive action. We ordinary Americans are better off if nothing gets "accomplished".
Simple economics tells me this is a good trade. The loss of DACA carries an estimated $400 billion cost to GDP. The total cost of the wall is estimated at $25 billion.
I anticipate that the wall will be a complete boondoggle - never finished and completely ineffective. The equivalent of flushing money down the toilet. It's also a complete insult to our neighbor to the south. But I suspect even they would understand if it was traded for DACA.
I anticipate that the wall will be a complete boondoggle - never finished and completely ineffective. The equivalent of flushing money down the toilet. It's also a complete insult to our neighbor to the south. But I suspect even they would understand if it was traded for DACA.
How easy it is for us liberals to turn one prospective deal with Trump into a head of policy steam. Let's not forget that the Republicans still control the legislative branch and Trump is still Trump.
1
There is already a wall on the Mexican-USA border. Visit it in San Diego, Douglas, Nogales or a number of other border cities. Letting Trump waste a couple of billion on demonstration sections is a very small price to pay for DACA. Walls corrode and fall apart - deporting hundreds of thousands of people who were brought her as children and view themselves as Americans would do irreversible damage to this nation.
The Wall is terrible for the environment. Check out the damage it will do to the Santa Ana Wildlife Refuge in Texas. No wall, no how.
8
And what about Big Bend National Park?
"For more than 1,000 miles the Rio Grande serves as the international boundary between Mexico and the United States; Big Bend National Park administers approximately one-quarter of that boundary. The Rio Grande also defines the park’s southern boundary for 118 twisting miles. It is within this stretch that the Rio Grande’s southeasterly flow changes abruptly to the northeast and forms the “big bend” of the Rio Grande."----from the national park web site.
I was there recently, sitting on the banks of the river. No wall, and that's how I want it to stay.
"For more than 1,000 miles the Rio Grande serves as the international boundary between Mexico and the United States; Big Bend National Park administers approximately one-quarter of that boundary. The Rio Grande also defines the park’s southern boundary for 118 twisting miles. It is within this stretch that the Rio Grande’s southeasterly flow changes abruptly to the northeast and forms the “big bend” of the Rio Grande."----from the national park web site.
I was there recently, sitting on the banks of the river. No wall, and that's how I want it to stay.
2
This sudden mutual admiration engagement between Trump and Schumer/Pelosi has to be limited to those issues in which the Dems can get good things done for people. Swapping DACA for wall funding is a patently dumb and potentially horrifying notion. Trump pledged to his admirers that he will get Mexico to pay for the wall. Let's see him wave at that windmill instead of forging a deal with him. In the meantime, if Chuck and Nancy have buttered up Trump enough, perhaps they can get much needed infrastructure off the inertia list.
9
"Now toss into the mix the president’s own sagging approval numbers. On Tuesday, Gallup had him at 37 percent.
These numbers, although low, are not sagging, but surprisingly are remaining fairly constant.
It is astounding and alarming that so many Americans can be so amoral, uncompassionate, bigoted, and ignorant.
It is a threat to the fabric of America's democracy.
These numbers, although low, are not sagging, but surprisingly are remaining fairly constant.
It is astounding and alarming that so many Americans can be so amoral, uncompassionate, bigoted, and ignorant.
It is a threat to the fabric of America's democracy.
6
Machiavelli, he ain't. No, Trump is more like my pup Willow who gets off on a treat, or a good belly rub. Its far more of a Pavlovian salivation experiment than a thoughtful, scheming by Trump.
Rub me the the right way and make the little chemicals in my brain case flow and I'm yours...for the moment. Well, Schumer and Pelosi apparently rubbed just so and the guy rolled on his back and twitched his leg and voila, we have a happy Trumpkin and two happy Democrats. Of course, they are pleased for two different reasons. Trump has a momentary high and the two adults feel momentarily accomplished.
The good news, is that Trump will now associate the two adults in the room with fond feelings. Pelosi and Schumer, too pleased by a half, will quickly learn that a belly rub is no longer sufficient to gain Donald's momentary attention and that the price for satisfying him will grow.
With Trump feeling "good things" and with a now active Democratic initiative saving us from Himself, some more good can come from this controlled experiment. The Debt Ceiling will rise. Suddenly, infrastructure repair and a modern tax policy may result. The costs of higher education and trade training may be focused on so that we have a population of educated, trained, and non-debt ridden kids.
Of course, Pelosi and Schumer better be prepared to keep stroking. Its going to take more and more to satisfy Our Satyr In Chief...but, its a start...
Rub me the the right way and make the little chemicals in my brain case flow and I'm yours...for the moment. Well, Schumer and Pelosi apparently rubbed just so and the guy rolled on his back and twitched his leg and voila, we have a happy Trumpkin and two happy Democrats. Of course, they are pleased for two different reasons. Trump has a momentary high and the two adults feel momentarily accomplished.
The good news, is that Trump will now associate the two adults in the room with fond feelings. Pelosi and Schumer, too pleased by a half, will quickly learn that a belly rub is no longer sufficient to gain Donald's momentary attention and that the price for satisfying him will grow.
With Trump feeling "good things" and with a now active Democratic initiative saving us from Himself, some more good can come from this controlled experiment. The Debt Ceiling will rise. Suddenly, infrastructure repair and a modern tax policy may result. The costs of higher education and trade training may be focused on so that we have a population of educated, trained, and non-debt ridden kids.
Of course, Pelosi and Schumer better be prepared to keep stroking. Its going to take more and more to satisfy Our Satyr In Chief...but, its a start...
4
1.5 billion toward the wall in exchange for DACA is pocket change. DJT should be a fool to agree to nothing short of the cost of the entire construction and maintenance.
1
Maybe the Democrats understand what constitutes an opposition party, but they sure aren't showing it. You have to have the "belly" for it, I suppose.
2
Congress should grant citizenship to DACA enrollees as part of a legislative package designed to stop future illegal immigration. The package should also:
1. authorize state, county and city police to enforce federal immigration laws;
2. empower states, counties and cities to make it unlawful for unauthorized immigrants to reside within their jurisdictions;
3. make E-Verify mandatory nationwide;
4. change asylum laws to deny asylum to anyone who enters the country illegally;
5. and initiate a process to reinterpret or, if necessary, amend the citizenship clause to grant birthright citizenship only to children born to U.S. parents.
If these measures were put into effect, we wouldn’t need a border wall or a border fence, but the compromise package should designate the existing border fence the “Donald Trump Border Wall” so Trump will sign the bill. We can tear down the fence after he leaves office.
1. authorize state, county and city police to enforce federal immigration laws;
2. empower states, counties and cities to make it unlawful for unauthorized immigrants to reside within their jurisdictions;
3. make E-Verify mandatory nationwide;
4. change asylum laws to deny asylum to anyone who enters the country illegally;
5. and initiate a process to reinterpret or, if necessary, amend the citizenship clause to grant birthright citizenship only to children born to U.S. parents.
If these measures were put into effect, we wouldn’t need a border wall or a border fence, but the compromise package should designate the existing border fence the “Donald Trump Border Wall” so Trump will sign the bill. We can tear down the fence after he leaves office.
4
Trump loved the Democrats yesterday.
He will be shocked today that they won't fund his wall.
His love will waiver.
He tried, he will Twitter.
But those Democrats are such obstructionists!
"I am," he will tweet. "The very, very best president since Abraham Lincoln. I know this and so do you because I just told you."
He will be shocked today that they won't fund his wall.
His love will waiver.
He tried, he will Twitter.
But those Democrats are such obstructionists!
"I am," he will tweet. "The very, very best president since Abraham Lincoln. I know this and so do you because I just told you."
3
I strongly disagree. This is trading people's lives to score a political point. I don't support the wall either and, yes, the Republicans are to blame, but the priorities here for any decent person are obvious.
The wall and the Dreamers are not equal and should not be horse-traded
The wall is an abomination, obscene and with our present technology, we can protect our border better without it. Trump just wants a symbol of his greatness.
The issue of the Dreamers are also a no-brainer. These are real people we're talking about, citizens in all but name. We've let them stay, work and believe in this country. They should be given a path to full citizenship.
And right now, we have much more important places to put our money: the massive cleanup costs of Harvey and Irma (and who knows what the future will hold), plus all those wildfires in the West that no one is even talking about nationally.
The wall is an abomination, obscene and with our present technology, we can protect our border better without it. Trump just wants a symbol of his greatness.
The issue of the Dreamers are also a no-brainer. These are real people we're talking about, citizens in all but name. We've let them stay, work and believe in this country. They should be given a path to full citizenship.
And right now, we have much more important places to put our money: the massive cleanup costs of Harvey and Irma (and who knows what the future will hold), plus all those wildfires in the West that no one is even talking about nationally.
4
A wall would redirect illegal drug onto the seas if indeed the wall has any impact at all except damaging the environment and wildlife. Oh, and you noticed the funding for the Coast Guard is to be cut?
2
Let's call Trump's "wall" a hair-brained idea, but, let's also realize what it really means in practical terms: border security, to dampen the flow of undocumented people, and illegal drugs. Trump, as usual, makes many inarticulate statements that come back to bite him, the "beautiful wall" standing out as one of his all time hits. A huge physical, thousand mile long wall never had a chance, for it is totally unrealistic, and has been misconstrued as a racist emblem, both for the racists who embrace the idea, and the left who lick their chops over this nonsense as a call for resistance. However, a serious project to strengthen our southern border is something the country needs. Legal immigration is important to our nation's success. The compromise of passing humane and pragmatic immigration reform, including DACA-like elements is important, however, without addressing our porous southern border, the humane elements of amnesty-like regulations will continue to induce undocumented people to flood the country. The flood ebbs and flows over time, but we must fix our broken border and our immigration laws to be prepared for the inevitable flood.
3
People who did not want Obamacare to be dismantled made so much noise everywhere, they saved it. You can do the same thing here: make a huge noise to save your Dreamer neighbors and friends and to keep Trump from spending 20 billion on a ridiculous wall rather than spending it on education or poverty or one of many more worthwhile causes.
1
Although the wall is a bad idea, it was a good thing that Trump, at least for a moment, broke the partisan fever that (due to GOP hatred of Obama) has crippled the nation's ability to get obvious things done. If Trump continues to undermine naked and relentless partisans like Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell, that may be the first thing he has done right since he hit Syria after it used chemical weapons. So far, the nation has been badly hurt by his presidency. Cutting deals with the Dems might be the beginning of stopping things from getting even worse. If nothing else, Trump has weakened the talk radio talking point that associates Nancy Pelosi with everything evil and un-American.
1
No deal on the wall. If Schumer and Pelosi can't see the slippery slope before them by dealing with Trump, then they should retire. He needs them more than they need him and with any luck he will be on his way to being history in six months. The Dreamers do need a chance but a deal of this nature would shore up Trump's sagging presidency, embolden the far right, and run the risk that he'll pull the rug out down the line making the Democrats look like fools right before the 2018 elections and that must never happen.
4
Please. There's already a border wall along a few hundred miles. Completing it, especially along the Rio Grande into some Great Wall of Mexico is a Trumpian fantasy that would cost trillions. Throwing the big Orange baby a couple billion for "border security" to give permanent legal status for DACA people is a small price to pay. Voters want compromise, not McConnell like obstruction. And there's not even a line crossed. Democrats have been agreeing to billions for the Republicans "to secure the border" that haven't done anything for years.
1
Trump's strategy is very clear - get the democrats to vote against DACA.
It's unthinkable that Democrats would ever consider a compromise that would allow a wall to be built.
Agree. There's no reason to compromise on that ridiculous wall. It was meant to be just an applause line anyway.
1
This piece is characteristic of a certain type - so consumed with politics that it forgets that what really matters is good policy (which - not election victories - is what politics is supposed to get us).
1) Progressive issues poll well. That's not news, and it hasn't helped us achieve those goals. Just look at the polling for how many people in both parties want higher taxes on the mega-rich, or to stop unlimited political donations. Then look at how little even Democratic politicians prioritize those issues.
2) Finding a way to keep the Dreamers here would save lives. It would improve lives. It would improve our country. Building the wall is a dumb waste of money, but wouldn't really do much of anything negative beyond that (nor would it be effective at stopping people who want to cross the border, of course).
I think it's a great deal, and Democrats, who control neither the WH, nor either body of Congress, should absolutely take it, because it helps human beings with little downside. And forget any other considerations.
1) Progressive issues poll well. That's not news, and it hasn't helped us achieve those goals. Just look at the polling for how many people in both parties want higher taxes on the mega-rich, or to stop unlimited political donations. Then look at how little even Democratic politicians prioritize those issues.
2) Finding a way to keep the Dreamers here would save lives. It would improve lives. It would improve our country. Building the wall is a dumb waste of money, but wouldn't really do much of anything negative beyond that (nor would it be effective at stopping people who want to cross the border, of course).
I think it's a great deal, and Democrats, who control neither the WH, nor either body of Congress, should absolutely take it, because it helps human beings with little downside. And forget any other considerations.
2
The author's view is typical of what is rotten in Congress: no deal unless my viewpoint wins both sides of the negotiation.
Fact: amnesty for the Dreamers is a good idea, but it will encourage another surge of illegal immigration.
Fact: a wall will help protect our border from such a surge and create jobs for US construction companies.
Fact: amnesty for the Dreamers is a good idea, but it will encourage another surge of illegal immigration.
Fact: a wall will help protect our border from such a surge and create jobs for US construction companies.
8
I'm sickened by the rhetoric that we in South Texas and along the borders are to be used as pawns for the horribly conceived "big, beautiful wall." The edifice, if built, will destroy the environment, endanger the people living along the border with flooding along the Rio Grande (see also what happened in Nogales, Arizona). People here are tired of having their lands taken by eminent domain as well as wild life refuges being sacrificed for this monstrosity. It is despicable that fellow Americans see us - our property, our safety, our health, and our well-being - as being something to be casually tossed about in a discussion for barter.
Most of the people in border areas are vehemently against DACA being manipulated by Trump and the Republicans in Congress in a way that hurts these children. However, we cannot abide having our communities ripped to shreds by Trumps wall.
Most of the people in border areas are vehemently against DACA being manipulated by Trump and the Republicans in Congress in a way that hurts these children. However, we cannot abide having our communities ripped to shreds by Trumps wall.
5
I absolutely agree with Mr. Tomasky. Democrats could "compromise" by funding other aspects of border security (staffing, facilities, training, other forms of electronic surveillance of the border). There's one more thing about the wall that Tomasky leaves out: Mexico was going to pay for it -- that was one of Trump's biggest leading applause lies (next to "Lock her up"), calling out his audience like a chorus. Why are we even talking about funding it? Democrats and others should be doing more to highlight how deceptive Trump's campaign was, now that he is in office and cannot deliver. As it turns out, it isn't "so easy", it's not a beautiful health plan, North Korea has an ICBM and some big bombs, there's not peace in the Middle East, and on and on. Trump voters may not be persuaded to change their minds on policies -- we disagree as citizens on issues, and that's fine. But, they should be made, every day, to see they voted for lies and a liar.
1
McConnell did not betray his base by opposing Obama. Democrats would if they supported the wall. There is no equivalence.
The wall is a waste. I think a good compromise would be an amnesty for the 800k dreamers in exchange for mandatory E-Verify nationwide.
Any sort of amnesty for those here illegally will result in a surge of more illegal immigration. We know this from previous experience so we must have some sort of effective enforcement mechanisms in place to thwart any future surge in illegal immigration.
Any sort of amnesty for those here illegally will result in a surge of more illegal immigration. We know this from previous experience so we must have some sort of effective enforcement mechanisms in place to thwart any future surge in illegal immigration.
23
Waste or not, people voted for the Wall when they elected Trump. It was his key campaign promise. E-verify should be added too.
1
You're idea is great - but the problem is that the federal gov't doesn't want E-Verify. All "illegals" that work using stolen SSN's are paying into Social Security and Medicare - but will probably not be able to collect it. This is essentially free money for the gov't and they are unwilling to let it go. It's the worst kind of hypocrisy on the government's part. They are - in some ways - as guilty as businesses are for taking advantage of undocumented aliens working in the US.
Dan,
The most sensible way to stop illegal entry into our country is to make becoming a citizen easier for the Latinos that come here for jobs.They are in great demand by our agricultural industry, and for the most part, become an asset to our Nation.By becoming Citizens they would be protected by our labor laws & earn at least minimum wages.
The most sensible way to stop illegal entry into our country is to make becoming a citizen easier for the Latinos that come here for jobs.They are in great demand by our agricultural industry, and for the most part, become an asset to our Nation.By becoming Citizens they would be protected by our labor laws & earn at least minimum wages.
1
A billion or two to build a wall? So what. We're talking about hundreds of thousands of lives. The wall is foolishness. It stands for American xenophobia and bigotry which shames us all. But really, Innocent lives matter so much more. A few thousand people will get a few years work. America will build a testament to the dark side of the human spirit. Democrats should be sure that the deal includes young people who qualify for DACA but have not yet signed up. That aside, make the deal.
Rescinding DACA and having Sessions do the dirty work was simply Trump's way of throwing a bone to his base, yet deflecting some of the heat of being racist away from himself. Trump fighting tooth and nail for his beautiful wall however shows his true colors. Nobody wants open borders, but a physical barrier is not the answer. With a declining birthrate and an aging population we are going to need more young hard-working people to immigrate to the United States. Let's get smart with immigration reform and include a path to citizenship for the Dreamers.
1
One more thing Mr. Tomaski. The USA is not governed by polls. The USA is governed by elections. In the past election, like it or not, the pro-wall people put Trump into the White House to implement his populist agenda. Polls are often manipulated and wrong. All polls indicated that Hillary will win with 98% certainty. Don't use the (fictitious) polls to steal the outcome of the real elections.
5
How are you so clairvoyant as to know that "pro-wall people" put Trump into the White House? If public polling is correct - and you show no evidence that it isn't - the vast majority of American voters don't, and never wanted, a wall - much larger percentages than the 46% of voters who backed Donald Trump last November. It is equally, if not more, possible that the large majority of Trump voters (to speak nothing of non-Trump voters) voted for him IN SPITE OF his promises to build a wall, and either ignored or minimized his insistence on walls, deporting DREAMERS and general hostility to immigrants illegal or otherwise.
1
@Pierre, itțs not clairivoyance. The wall was the key promise made by candidate Trump was who elected President las November according to the nations laws, not polls or the popular vote, which is is not mandatory in our federal republic.
1
The fact that building a "wall" resonates with anyone is that large swaths of both the Republicans and the Democratic Party bases don't want stricter immigration laws.
The Republicans want the cheap labour and the PC Democrats want open borders.
The Republicans want the cheap labour and the PC Democrats want open borders.
2
No, Democrats don't want open borders. Congress took how many symbolic Obamacare repeal votes? When they could have used time to get to work on immigration reform?
1
Democrats should be very careful about making deals with the president. He just betrayed his so-called Republican friends. Why should anyone trust him?
1
Guess Dems really don't want a DACA deal. Can't for the life of me understand resistance to border security. Read in Politico this week that Dems won't even consider strengthening E-Verify. Don't worry, GOP will fold on this like a cheap suit.
3
I have no doubt that the Democrats will eventually capitulate on the wall. They're Democrats, after all.
Donald Trump was voted into office to build the wall. This was the will of the states. Tomasky and people like him don't respect the will of the voters, which is disturbing.
The Democrats and Republicans should vote for the WALL A.S.A.P. without any deals for DACA, if they want to at least pretend that we live in a country where we, the people, have actual representation. It looks like every special interest has representation, including the millions of illegal immigrants, save the legal citizens and native Americans. The Wall is the first step toward immigration reform and order at the border.
You complain that 2 billion dollars voted by Democrats for the Wall is a big deal? It is nothing. We've spent trillions to defend the borders of other far away countries.
The Democrats and Republicans should vote for the WALL A.S.A.P. without any deals for DACA, if they want to at least pretend that we live in a country where we, the people, have actual representation. It looks like every special interest has representation, including the millions of illegal immigrants, save the legal citizens and native Americans. The Wall is the first step toward immigration reform and order at the border.
You complain that 2 billion dollars voted by Democrats for the Wall is a big deal? It is nothing. We've spent trillions to defend the borders of other far away countries.
1
Voters reward obstructionism? Tell that to Harry Truman, who won reelection by railing against a do-nothing Congress. Tell that to all the folks in Congress from both parties who won reelection during the Reagan administration. Then there's Newt Gingrich, who got hammered politically for forcing a govt shutdown.
The wall is a political Trojan horse for Trump and the GOP. It would be frightfully expensive but accomplish nothing--it wouldn't stop a single illegal immigrant. It's nothing but a symbol. Dreamers, however, are real. We have plenty of money. If we don't squander it on a wall, we'll waste it on something else. And once it is built, Democrats could go to town, pointing to the wall and saying "Here's the ransom we had to pay to rescue 800k dreamers." Beyond being an easily defensible vote, it would give Democrats an issue to use against the GOP for as long as the wall stood, an ironic reverse Statue of Liberty, if you will, proving that a wall cannot contain human spirit that yearns to breathe free.
The wall is a political Trojan horse for Trump and the GOP. It would be frightfully expensive but accomplish nothing--it wouldn't stop a single illegal immigrant. It's nothing but a symbol. Dreamers, however, are real. We have plenty of money. If we don't squander it on a wall, we'll waste it on something else. And once it is built, Democrats could go to town, pointing to the wall and saying "Here's the ransom we had to pay to rescue 800k dreamers." Beyond being an easily defensible vote, it would give Democrats an issue to use against the GOP for as long as the wall stood, an ironic reverse Statue of Liberty, if you will, proving that a wall cannot contain human spirit that yearns to breathe free.
1
I am not for open borders. I am a Democrat and voted for Hillary. But in my heart a big part of me was glad when Trump one, primarily because of the immigration issue. For me the issue is bigger than immigration, it really is about environment and population.
Our growing population over 300 million is making development an increasing necessity and is devastating to nature and our environment. I don’t view the natural world strictly as a resource for our gratification – extinguishing species after species, and crippling those that survive is satanic in my view.
So I would say to the Dreamers – go back to the countries which in many cases you hardly know – take the skills which you learned here and which were given to you for free, and use them to help build up your country of birth.
Then reapply for US citizenship. There would be a five year waiting period. But you would be given a preference rating.
I know it is unfair. But I am still working 40 hours plus a week at 70+ to pay for the medical care, the education and the housing of the 10’s of millions who crossed into this country to escape poverty but have in the process had a crippling effect on so many needs for cohesion.
And it is said in the bible/Deuteronomy the sins of the fathers are visited on the sons.
If you can Dream surely it is not too much to Dream to help not just yourself but your countrymen of birth as well. Why don't we ever hear that spoken about?
Our growing population over 300 million is making development an increasing necessity and is devastating to nature and our environment. I don’t view the natural world strictly as a resource for our gratification – extinguishing species after species, and crippling those that survive is satanic in my view.
So I would say to the Dreamers – go back to the countries which in many cases you hardly know – take the skills which you learned here and which were given to you for free, and use them to help build up your country of birth.
Then reapply for US citizenship. There would be a five year waiting period. But you would be given a preference rating.
I know it is unfair. But I am still working 40 hours plus a week at 70+ to pay for the medical care, the education and the housing of the 10’s of millions who crossed into this country to escape poverty but have in the process had a crippling effect on so many needs for cohesion.
And it is said in the bible/Deuteronomy the sins of the fathers are visited on the sons.
If you can Dream surely it is not too much to Dream to help not just yourself but your countrymen of birth as well. Why don't we ever hear that spoken about?
3
I tried to finish this piece but had to stop when I realized I was halfway through and the author is basing his opinion on polling data.
1) Politicians who rely on polls to inform their decisions are weak, non-thinkers and should be unceremoniously expelled from office. This author thinks otherwise.
2) After last November, one would think twice before trusting any polling data. This author thinks otherwise.
1) Politicians who rely on polls to inform their decisions are weak, non-thinkers and should be unceremoniously expelled from office. This author thinks otherwise.
2) After last November, one would think twice before trusting any polling data. This author thinks otherwise.
5
I'm with Mr. Tomasky in large measure here. There WILL be other horses to trade, indeed, and this straight trade now would be a sellout. The fact is that neither a rugged pragmatism nor any semblance of bipartisanship is involved here, but the President's pathological need to show that he still has some mojo, and his corollary need to embarrass and wound Republican leaders who he deems ineffectual swamp dwellers. Because, finally, they wouldn't or couldn't do what he wanted. Besides, on the level of principle--I know, I know, that's such a passé notion--"giving an unpopular president money for an unpopular idea" that is also manifestly racist seems, well, just wrong.
Democrats and liberals may support DACA but those voters who supported President Trump do not support it. These people broke the law and should not be rewarded by gaining permanent citizenship. If DACA remains, there will be an uptick in illegal immigrants coming to our country. Is this fair and just to those who arrive here legally by following our laws. Certainly not. There are those who have waited years to enter, and now we are seeing illegals being favored by our politicians. This is wrong and unlawful. Why have laws in the first place is they are only made to be broken.
1
This new turn is long overdue, Washington should have been awash in talk about deal-making a long time ago.
It hasn't escaped the eyes of many that this president has studiously avoided certain parts of the country, the same way this Republican held Congress has managed to avoid doing anything that has to with governing.
That the Democrats are finally involved in having some input in the conversation is not so much a sign of goodwill, as a declaration of the fact that Republicans don't seem to be able to get anything done.
But this should in no way mean a slam-dunk for that ridiculous border wall proposal, which is mainly the pipe-dream of a president desperate for approval. Nor should it be part of a deal to enforce the abrogation of the Deferred Action of Childhood Arrivals program.
After months of anti-immigrant and xenophobic rhetoric, Trump has managed to rile up the most base of American's sentiments when it comes to the fates of those who, for whatever reasons, were brought into this country as minors.
In the long time they've been here, many have become productive members of this society as teachers, lawyers, soldiers and other professionals -- to callously toss them out of the only place they've ever known as 'home' is reprehensible.
If anything, they should at least be offered the chance to legally apply for citizenship, without the fear of being hunted down like convicts.
That's the least this country can do for them.
And the best thing it can do for itself.
It hasn't escaped the eyes of many that this president has studiously avoided certain parts of the country, the same way this Republican held Congress has managed to avoid doing anything that has to with governing.
That the Democrats are finally involved in having some input in the conversation is not so much a sign of goodwill, as a declaration of the fact that Republicans don't seem to be able to get anything done.
But this should in no way mean a slam-dunk for that ridiculous border wall proposal, which is mainly the pipe-dream of a president desperate for approval. Nor should it be part of a deal to enforce the abrogation of the Deferred Action of Childhood Arrivals program.
After months of anti-immigrant and xenophobic rhetoric, Trump has managed to rile up the most base of American's sentiments when it comes to the fates of those who, for whatever reasons, were brought into this country as minors.
In the long time they've been here, many have become productive members of this society as teachers, lawyers, soldiers and other professionals -- to callously toss them out of the only place they've ever known as 'home' is reprehensible.
If anything, they should at least be offered the chance to legally apply for citizenship, without the fear of being hunted down like convicts.
That's the least this country can do for them.
And the best thing it can do for itself.
1
Why not enhanced border security, not necessarily all wall? am I to believe that all impoverished immigrants are properly vaccinated and have no infectious disease?
Would it be crime against humanity to
control entry to this country.
Maybe corporations that need labor should fund the process, medical screening and vaccination program.
Would it be crime against humanity to
control entry to this country.
Maybe corporations that need labor should fund the process, medical screening and vaccination program.
1
Swap DACA and Comprehensive Immigration Reform for Wall Funding. Charge $3,000 penalty for illegals for legal status to get funding for the wall. You'll get about $30 billion for the wall that way. Some areas of the border is too easy to cross. So, it's not a bad idea to build a wall in those areas hiring American workers.
1
So let me get this straight, Mr. Tomasky's guiding principle of when to compromise is only when the other side has the public's favor.
Never compromise when you think you can win. Go to the mat.
Isn't this exactly what has been going on for the last several years?
It is thought processes like this that got us into the mess we are in.
Bad reasoning Mr.T
Never compromise when you think you can win. Go to the mat.
Isn't this exactly what has been going on for the last several years?
It is thought processes like this that got us into the mess we are in.
Bad reasoning Mr.T
4
The idea of building a wall at the US/Mexico is becoming too normalized in recent articles and is often presented as a minor expense or trade off for some other political gain. The DACA provisions are those that we need to keep in place and to bargain with the futures of these young people is not ethical, not that this is of particular concern.
Nor is the building of a wall. Aside from being unethical, it would not be effective, it would be a waste of funds needed for other important things...like healthcare, like relief for hurricane and flood victims. The building a wall is a fool's errand that would be unspeakably disruptive on too many levels. As much as their presence is resented down here near the line, adding to the border patrol is the better choice.
Dems need to stand up and hold the ground.
Nor is the building of a wall. Aside from being unethical, it would not be effective, it would be a waste of funds needed for other important things...like healthcare, like relief for hurricane and flood victims. The building a wall is a fool's errand that would be unspeakably disruptive on too many levels. As much as their presence is resented down here near the line, adding to the border patrol is the better choice.
Dems need to stand up and hold the ground.
2
Politics, my father taught me, is the art of the possible. It is also about compromise and let's make a deal and a deal on those here illegally includes closing the borders to future trespassers and then addressing those already here. Whether it is physical or a metaphoric wall, immigration must be controlled from those who sneak across our borders to those who overstay visitor visas. A deal on DACA and "a border wall" is at least a start. Let's make a deal
4
I agree that there shouldn't be any "deal" making as it pertains to building the wall. I also believe immigration should be a bipartisan issue that can be executed effectively if we approached immigration reform strategically and refrained from ad hoc and emotional decision making. If we truly put America first, we should look at using the billion dollars towards hiring border patrol. To give away billions of dollars to erect separation has many unintended consequences and would not generate a return on investment like hiring individuals to monitor our borders would. Additionally, what if there was a National disaster that caused a mandatory evacuation of the US? Bottom line, I concur that we must ensure our borders are protected. I concur that our DACA children should remain in the US, I concur that illegal immigration is wrong as I have witnessed my friend who is a Black female Canadian Ph.D go through so much to obtain her US citizenship, yet has contributed greatly to our country through her consistent research and it is painful to see her go through such a lengthy process. Point being, building a wall will be an unnecessary cost to the American people. Our money will be best spent by invest in human capital and technology to tighten our borders. Dems no deals please as Mexico ain't paying for no wall:-)
17
A simple bipartisan budget neural solution is right in front of us, and it also would shift the political burden of of Congress. Sell Wall Bonds. if the public really wants the wall they can belly up to the bar and buy it.
2
Both Parties look upon DACA as more than just the right thing to retain, it is a
a ever increasing voting block that will determine the path our countries future.For this reason & mostly for this reason DACA is here to stay. The Republicans have an inside track to get the Hispanic vote on their side, due to their religious adherence, whereas, the Democrats are looked upon as a progressive secular party, which is what I love about being a Democrat,but we must fervently reach out for this vote, not only because it’s the right thing to do , but getting their vote will in time make us the dominant party that we used to be.The wall as described by Trump would be a waste of the tax Payers money. The Mexicans are already in the process of digging tunnels.
The way to protect our border are better served with harsher penalties for illegal entry.
a ever increasing voting block that will determine the path our countries future.For this reason & mostly for this reason DACA is here to stay. The Republicans have an inside track to get the Hispanic vote on their side, due to their religious adherence, whereas, the Democrats are looked upon as a progressive secular party, which is what I love about being a Democrat,but we must fervently reach out for this vote, not only because it’s the right thing to do , but getting their vote will in time make us the dominant party that we used to be.The wall as described by Trump would be a waste of the tax Payers money. The Mexicans are already in the process of digging tunnels.
The way to protect our border are better served with harsher penalties for illegal entry.
1
The Dems made a mistake in cutting a deal with Trump instead of their GOP colleagues (in spite of past obstruction) on issues important to America. Trading away leverage in this regard will not give enough wiggle room to get much done later. Dems and the GOP for that matter, should be enunciating their priorities and proposals to the American people. As to the wall, anyone who visited Berlin during the Cold War years can attest to what a sad example of man's inhumanity to his fellow man that it represented. This would be no different. What we need are politicians who care about those they represent. A wall should never be a priority for anyone.
12
NYP seems to think that there can be a law passed to protect DACA without some concessions. Without concessions, Obama's DACA is toast and so it the protection.
The legislation not only need the wall, it needs to limit new immigration to accept legalizing these that are here now and also limit special visa for temp workers.
NYP continues to think that the immigration system is working, which it is not and compromise is your only hope.
The legislation not only need the wall, it needs to limit new immigration to accept legalizing these that are here now and also limit special visa for temp workers.
NYP continues to think that the immigration system is working, which it is not and compromise is your only hope.
7
Using your logic of polling for preferences the Wall should be built, Donald Trump won on building that wall, it is a fundamental building block of his, and by extension the voters wants.
The DACA kids are another point entirely, I appreciate the fact that these now mostly grown adults want to stay, however what I don't appreciate is their demands that they stay.
If a bank robber gets away with the loot does that mean his children would be entitled to use that loot as though it was their own, I am not certain, I do have mixed feelings, but what I don't like is the assumption that they are entitled, they really aren't, it would be our choice, not theirs.
The DACA kids are another point entirely, I appreciate the fact that these now mostly grown adults want to stay, however what I don't appreciate is their demands that they stay.
If a bank robber gets away with the loot does that mean his children would be entitled to use that loot as though it was their own, I am not certain, I do have mixed feelings, but what I don't like is the assumption that they are entitled, they really aren't, it would be our choice, not theirs.
4
"It’s gone from being the liberal position to what we might call the common-sense humane position".
You report that, basically, DACA has already won. So why deal?
Is it your fear that Mr. Trump may not follow through on what appear to be solid assurances? That won't change.
Our President is our North Korea. He'll make a deal, stand before the cameras and smile, and wave, and take all the credit.
When all the good PR has been squeezed out of it he'll renege, blast the original deal for its all-encompassing horribleness, and negotiate a new deal and smile and wave and take all the credit.
It's what he does. A lot.
Is it that you're worried that giving an inch on The Wall is open the door to our own Hurricane Harvey? Because that's always the cased with Mr. Trump.
Even if you sit stock still staring at the far horizon, he will find in your behavior a reason to go to any extreme that appeals to him at the moment.
As you have reliably demonstrated, Democrats will be at a loss for how to effectively address that.
No, the real problem is that by making this deal you have lost your position, your edge, your right to call out a President who is now on your side.
Sadly, it's happened already to some degree. And for what, a shaky promise that Dreamers are "safe" for six more months? Which he already said.
Yet again, Dems are on the verge of folding the closest thing to a winning hand they've had in years. And gaining nothing lasting for Dreamers.
You report that, basically, DACA has already won. So why deal?
Is it your fear that Mr. Trump may not follow through on what appear to be solid assurances? That won't change.
Our President is our North Korea. He'll make a deal, stand before the cameras and smile, and wave, and take all the credit.
When all the good PR has been squeezed out of it he'll renege, blast the original deal for its all-encompassing horribleness, and negotiate a new deal and smile and wave and take all the credit.
It's what he does. A lot.
Is it that you're worried that giving an inch on The Wall is open the door to our own Hurricane Harvey? Because that's always the cased with Mr. Trump.
Even if you sit stock still staring at the far horizon, he will find in your behavior a reason to go to any extreme that appeals to him at the moment.
As you have reliably demonstrated, Democrats will be at a loss for how to effectively address that.
No, the real problem is that by making this deal you have lost your position, your edge, your right to call out a President who is now on your side.
Sadly, it's happened already to some degree. And for what, a shaky promise that Dreamers are "safe" for six more months? Which he already said.
Yet again, Dems are on the verge of folding the closest thing to a winning hand they've had in years. And gaining nothing lasting for Dreamers.
@R. Law:Hunch so many of the comments published r written by tenured academics whose positions r not threatened by illegal immigration, but whose livelihoods would be threatened if they did not take an anti Trump position and were to say, as Buchanan wrote in "Suicide of a Super Power," that a nation that does not protect its borders is no longer sovereign.Likewise for author of the article who, I speculate, makes a nice living and is, therefore not imperiled by open borders and chain immigration. Question formulated to a Congressman other evening: Why, in his district, where tens of thousands were out of work, he would support DACA and open borders. His reply was not based on law, nor a pro citizen compassion, but on commiseration for those who were here illegally. Brother in law, originally from Ghana, was working in South Africa, had a settled life and made a decent living. Then came layoffs in the mining industry , and he as well as tens of thousands of other foreign workers, including a high percentage of Zimbabweans, were forced to leave under pressure from South African labor unions.Very easy to engage in moral preening towards others if you, yourself, have a well paid sinecure.
1
Glad to see that incredible progress has been made towards tearing down an enormous
wall - the one keeping Republicans and Democrats apart.
It's so surprising that it's coming from Trump but, whatever his motivations, it's great news for our country and for us all.
wall - the one keeping Republicans and Democrats apart.
It's so surprising that it's coming from Trump but, whatever his motivations, it's great news for our country and for us all.
1
I agree.
This is the opportunity for Democrats to lead on an issue that both puts them in the right and will help them politically.
Now is the time to push hard for the DREAM ACT with no riders, compromises, or other deals. Oppose the border wall unconditionally.
If they do, they will earn respect and votes - both of which they sorely need.
They are in a far better position than the Republicans- Donald Trump doesn't expect their loyalty, but he needs them if he is going to be the "winner" that he wants to be, given the inner turmoil of the Republican Party.
If they play their cards right, they can block the Republican agenda, promote democratic principles and policies, do an end run around the white supremacist, nationalistic wing of the populist movement by promoting their own brand of pluralistic, humane populism, while earning votes at the same time.
But they need to beware. Keep deals with Donald Trump to a minimum. Anyone who doesn't subordinate themselves to his will gets burned by him. He will take and get credit for any deals he makes, not the Democrats. Then he will go off in another direction and leave them high and dry.
This is the opportunity for Democrats to lead on an issue that both puts them in the right and will help them politically.
Now is the time to push hard for the DREAM ACT with no riders, compromises, or other deals. Oppose the border wall unconditionally.
If they do, they will earn respect and votes - both of which they sorely need.
They are in a far better position than the Republicans- Donald Trump doesn't expect their loyalty, but he needs them if he is going to be the "winner" that he wants to be, given the inner turmoil of the Republican Party.
If they play their cards right, they can block the Republican agenda, promote democratic principles and policies, do an end run around the white supremacist, nationalistic wing of the populist movement by promoting their own brand of pluralistic, humane populism, while earning votes at the same time.
But they need to beware. Keep deals with Donald Trump to a minimum. Anyone who doesn't subordinate themselves to his will gets burned by him. He will take and get credit for any deals he makes, not the Democrats. Then he will go off in another direction and leave them high and dry.
1
Agreed, and it must be emphasized that having Trump's support is, based on his track record in Congress, a sure-fire path to failure. Moreover, by cutting a deal with Trump the Democrats are playing in the gutter; and you never come away from that unsullied.
2
Trump probably read about Hadrian's Wall or the Great Wall of China in some comic book or heard them mentioned on Fox News and thought of it as a lasting memorial to his wonderfulness. Actually, it would serve no practical purpose and would be horribly expensive. On second thought, it probably would be reminiscent of Trump.
4
Cut a deal for wall money in the context of getting something important like real immigration reform? Sure. My only reason to oppose the wall is that it's a waste of money. Figuratively, the project will probably fall of its own weight (if not literally, too). But it's a small waste of money relative the Federal budget. If DACA can gain permanent status from bipartisan legislation, that's compromise I can believe in!
1
Who's playing Politics with Dreamers Now? Exchanging $8B for the Wall for 800,000 dreamers is a Bargain at $10,000/soul. If that is what it will take, I'm All-In.
We have spent more than that just educating these young people, many have already paid more than that in taxes. While it is disreputable to buy souls in this fashion, where is the greater good I ask?
We have spent more than that just educating these young people, many have already paid more than that in taxes. While it is disreputable to buy souls in this fashion, where is the greater good I ask?
1
A compromise and fix for immigration policy should be to give the Dreamers a path to citizenship.
In exchange citizenship will no longer be granted to those who are born in the US. This policy was established when the US had few people and was free land to settle. There is no common sense to allow Chinese to fly to LAX when they are 8 months pregnant in order to get citizenship for the children and for immigrants to enter illegally to get citizenship.
In addition Public Education is only provided for US citizens or legal immigrants. You take away the incentive for illegal immigration for everyone in the world to enter and stay the US illegally for the costly and beneficial education we provide.
Common sense.
In exchange citizenship will no longer be granted to those who are born in the US. This policy was established when the US had few people and was free land to settle. There is no common sense to allow Chinese to fly to LAX when they are 8 months pregnant in order to get citizenship for the children and for immigrants to enter illegally to get citizenship.
In addition Public Education is only provided for US citizens or legal immigrants. You take away the incentive for illegal immigration for everyone in the world to enter and stay the US illegally for the costly and beneficial education we provide.
Common sense.
4
Political compromising is a process with a range of known and unknown implications and outcomes in a reality, often overlooked, and even not considered, by many, of uncertainty, unpredictability, randomness, lack of total control, notwithstanding what is being done. Or not done. Compromising values, and norms, associated with ethical living, well being, equitable sharing of human and non-human resources which are the underpinnings of civil society, mutual caring, respect, trust and help- a menschlich quality of life- while having the same letters, are not equivalent. "Trading" a socio-political constructed THEM, in our WE-THEM culture and world, for a linear wall, however it meanders, to solve non-linear, multi-dimensional, unresolvable human issues and problems, which are enabled by known and unknown individual and systemic stakeholders, is misleading. Perhaps a script could be derived from all of this-Dreamers and Climbers- for a black and white film documenting the diversity of the Dreamers in the US, and the Climbers, who also dream about overcoming the challenges to life, limb and soul of their daily lives. Have they yet considered the anger,hate,discrimination, exclusion, dehumanization,and stigmatization,which is part of US culture Along with being able to create and sustain much that is good.Healthy.Past and present.The US continues to be a haven for many.It can be, and it is,hellish in various internal,virtual walled-in-ways, for many people and groups as well.
Here is the deal---swamp DACA for more border security guards, more surveillance equipment, and maybe some repairs/upgrades to fencing already in place---that's it. Trump can pivot saying that with all this new technology, the wall is not as effective as a drone or something to that effect. Trump might even be able to get the Mexican President to say his Mexican border patrols have entered into some kind of mutual pact with our border security specifically aimed at drug smuggling.
1
There are no false steps in your column, Mr. Tomasky, but the problem is the American voter: lazy, indifferent, disinterested, single-issue, insular, uncaring and un-invested in the mythological national goal of a commonweal in which peace, prosperity and goodness are the ethical and moral touchstones of our democracy.
Of course Democrats should not agree to a "few billions" for The Wall as a trade-off for allowing DACA to live and breathe as President Obama wanted it to (and as Republicans most assuredly do not, Speaker Ryan and Senator Graham's recent statements to the contrary).
Your précis of voting patterns in the mid-term elections during Mr. Obama's presidency are especially illuminating. Overwhelmingly in 2008, American voters approved of "hope and change," yet pulled back in 2010, fearing the bite of the nascent Tea Party. Whatever critical party leverage President Obama had after his historic election in 2008 disappeared with the Right's storm of fury, the Tea Party washing away any hope of consensus. And, of course, in 2014, Republicans seized control of the Senate and voters rewarded Mitch McConnell for his "one-term president" promise which, in actuality, was a victory for McConnell, who robbed the president of a vital appointment to the Supreme Court.
Democrats foolishly believe that their Republican "colleagues" across the aisle will eventually put country before party. Since Newt Gingrich's infamous 1994 "Contract With America," how well has that worked?
Of course Democrats should not agree to a "few billions" for The Wall as a trade-off for allowing DACA to live and breathe as President Obama wanted it to (and as Republicans most assuredly do not, Speaker Ryan and Senator Graham's recent statements to the contrary).
Your précis of voting patterns in the mid-term elections during Mr. Obama's presidency are especially illuminating. Overwhelmingly in 2008, American voters approved of "hope and change," yet pulled back in 2010, fearing the bite of the nascent Tea Party. Whatever critical party leverage President Obama had after his historic election in 2008 disappeared with the Right's storm of fury, the Tea Party washing away any hope of consensus. And, of course, in 2014, Republicans seized control of the Senate and voters rewarded Mitch McConnell for his "one-term president" promise which, in actuality, was a victory for McConnell, who robbed the president of a vital appointment to the Supreme Court.
Democrats foolishly believe that their Republican "colleagues" across the aisle will eventually put country before party. Since Newt Gingrich's infamous 1994 "Contract With America," how well has that worked?
1
The wall has no place in any negotiation. The wall makes no fiscal sense, will not make us more secure and will inflict harm on the environment, amongst many other flaws. It will be a colossal waste of money no matter how you look at it. To not fix a road or support a rail line or fund health care or increase cybersecurity while paying for a nonsensical wall should be a non-starter for left and right alike. If the Dems make such a deal, they'll have sold themselves beyond repair.
1
Trump, Ryan and McConnell can't do a thing without Democratic votes. The Democratic leaders, Schumer and Pelosi, should understand that and use it to their advantage. Time to attach DACA, ACA stabilization and expansion, etc. to every bill the Republicans need or want to pass. Show some spine, the voters will reward it.
1
Dear Mr. Tomasky,
I would point out that the same "pollsters" you base your argument upon also gave Ms. Clinton a 95% chance of winning.
Having written that, if either of my two state Senators even think of co-operating with "Twitler" on anything, then I'll be voting for some new Senators in future elections. The Republicans have long ago abdicated "reasonable" governance and this "new deal" with the Democrats is as subject to change as Trump's tweets. Your problem is that you think the "old Washington" still exists (The city of compromise and governing); it doesn't.
Its been replaced by money and power hungry politicians with a "my way or the highway" approach and, if it becomes convenient, both Mr. Schumer and Ms. Pelosi will be thrown off the bus as soon as they're not needed.
I would point out that the same "pollsters" you base your argument upon also gave Ms. Clinton a 95% chance of winning.
Having written that, if either of my two state Senators even think of co-operating with "Twitler" on anything, then I'll be voting for some new Senators in future elections. The Republicans have long ago abdicated "reasonable" governance and this "new deal" with the Democrats is as subject to change as Trump's tweets. Your problem is that you think the "old Washington" still exists (The city of compromise and governing); it doesn't.
Its been replaced by money and power hungry politicians with a "my way or the highway" approach and, if it becomes convenient, both Mr. Schumer and Ms. Pelosi will be thrown off the bus as soon as they're not needed.
1
The Morning Consult poll Tomasky is citing comes from a partnership between Politico, Vox, Fortune and Bloomberg - the perfect marriage of the open borders crowd on the left and business groups looking to weaken labor bargaining power and keep wages down by flooding the market with more and more foreign workers.
You can keep your poll results. However this gets resolved, the establishment has to start defending American workers and taxpayers.
You can keep your poll results. However this gets resolved, the establishment has to start defending American workers and taxpayers.
1
DACA and the border wall do not need to be involved in any way. There is plenty of support for DACA right now and Republicans need to look human. The push should be for a clean DACA bill, the program has been working for years. Part of the problem for Congress accomplishing anything is attaching disparate pieces of legislation together until no one wants to support the whole mess.
2
DACA by executive order was unconstitutional. It was imperious. Immigration Law is adopted where all laws are adopted, in the Legislature.
Was congress doing its job? No. But it did not mean the president should start the country down the totalitarian path where the constitution is ignored.
The United States is not Mexico, and Mexico is not part of the United States. If you want to make Mexico the 51st state there is a process for it which is not new. If you want to make a Mexican into an American there is a process for that, its called naturalization. These are all legal processes.
There have been two arguments against the border security wall. "It won't work" and "It will work." If the argument is it "wont work" what additional steps do you propose? If you are afraid it "will work" then look in the mirror and see the reflection of an anarchist.
There are establishment Republicans who would love all the cheap labor from Mexico to the detriment of American workers. There are establishment Democrats who see more voters to fix their nationwide problems at the ballot box.
Then there are a lot of Americans who say Make America Great, and Make Mexico Great. Both can be great countries built on the labor of their own citizens. America should not be stealing the youth from Mexico with the promise of easy money.
The problem belongs in the Legislature with all of the checks, balances and compromises that entails.
Was congress doing its job? No. But it did not mean the president should start the country down the totalitarian path where the constitution is ignored.
The United States is not Mexico, and Mexico is not part of the United States. If you want to make Mexico the 51st state there is a process for it which is not new. If you want to make a Mexican into an American there is a process for that, its called naturalization. These are all legal processes.
There have been two arguments against the border security wall. "It won't work" and "It will work." If the argument is it "wont work" what additional steps do you propose? If you are afraid it "will work" then look in the mirror and see the reflection of an anarchist.
There are establishment Republicans who would love all the cheap labor from Mexico to the detriment of American workers. There are establishment Democrats who see more voters to fix their nationwide problems at the ballot box.
Then there are a lot of Americans who say Make America Great, and Make Mexico Great. Both can be great countries built on the labor of their own citizens. America should not be stealing the youth from Mexico with the promise of easy money.
The problem belongs in the Legislature with all of the checks, balances and compromises that entails.
4
If there is any negotiation for a "wall", it should involve total comprehensive immigration reform. This would include updating the process for legal immigration including appropriate levels as well as a process for integrating people who are already here and making them legal; ideally a path to citizenship for those who have broken no laws other than coming to the US without proper authority. In that context we can/should also take about border security and control.
When talking about border security and control, we could ideally have a reasoned debate on the best way to do that. In that light, most people will realize that a 2000 mile long physical wall would be both extremely wasteful and inefficient compared to other options that more effectively address the most important issues.
The key is to get past all the hyperbole and get to a reasoned place which is both consistent with our values and where 80+% of the people want to get.
When talking about border security and control, we could ideally have a reasoned debate on the best way to do that. In that light, most people will realize that a 2000 mile long physical wall would be both extremely wasteful and inefficient compared to other options that more effectively address the most important issues.
The key is to get past all the hyperbole and get to a reasoned place which is both consistent with our values and where 80+% of the people want to get.
Mr. Tomasky finds it quite easy to assume DACA will sort itself out before the six months runs out. He might not be so sanguine if someone he knew or loved was one of those whose future literally hangs in the balance. Sometimes winning the battle (in this case passing the Dream Act) is more important than scoring points in the long ugly war of politics.
1
Before we get overexcited about our new bipartisan president, let's examine Democratic gains so far.
We've been offered the chance to kick the can down the road for not only the new budget (again), but the debt ceiling decision, too.
Both are highly irresponsible deferrals, destined to further erode confidence in Congress' ability to manage critical government business with any kind of even-handedness.
And in exchange? A disaster relief softball for a state with a reputation for stubborn recalcitrance in matters Federal.
No doubt, Republicans estimate that their currently problematic image could only improve with a three-month fiscal delay and two (or more) heroic FEMA interventions. That should boost their "bargaining" power in December, right?
Let's hope they have miscalculated, and no, no DACA for fantasy wall.
And BTW, I assume the Good Neighbor Mexican Earthquake Relief package is already underway behind those closed, closed doors. Let's watch!
Regards,
JV
We've been offered the chance to kick the can down the road for not only the new budget (again), but the debt ceiling decision, too.
Both are highly irresponsible deferrals, destined to further erode confidence in Congress' ability to manage critical government business with any kind of even-handedness.
And in exchange? A disaster relief softball for a state with a reputation for stubborn recalcitrance in matters Federal.
No doubt, Republicans estimate that their currently problematic image could only improve with a three-month fiscal delay and two (or more) heroic FEMA interventions. That should boost their "bargaining" power in December, right?
Let's hope they have miscalculated, and no, no DACA for fantasy wall.
And BTW, I assume the Good Neighbor Mexican Earthquake Relief package is already underway behind those closed, closed doors. Let's watch!
Regards,
JV
What is "a wall" anyway? It's a principle, a political wedge, not a physical object. The US routinely spends money on managing it's borders. Go ahead and allocate a minimal amount of additional money for border security, label it "a wall", regardless of what it's spent on, and at the same time enact DACA into law.
This is how legislative compromise works. DJT scores points saying he built a wall, as promised, although it might I only be 1 mile long and 2 feet high, and DACA moves out of the courts and into statute. Bipartisan win-win. And Congress moves on to other pressing matters.
This is how legislative compromise works. DJT scores points saying he built a wall, as promised, although it might I only be 1 mile long and 2 feet high, and DACA moves out of the courts and into statute. Bipartisan win-win. And Congress moves on to other pressing matters.
20
Actually, it is a physical object. I lived behind one in Berlin.
And it exists as much in the mind as it does in reality...and always with the same effect -- Division.
And it exists as much in the mind as it does in reality...and always with the same effect -- Division.
3
The DACA should survive on its own merits. If DJT really wants a wall he can try to work out a deal with Mexico. He shouldn't be handed any points and certainly not by Democrats. If you sell only part of your soul to the devil you're still on the road to hell.
1
Except its not. It is a physical barrier. One designed to keep people who don't look like "us" out. I agree with the author that we'd sacrifice any moral high ground by giving in here. We're not even considering this on our northern border. So why on our southern?
1
DACA should be added to the RAISE Act which cuts legal immigration in half, makes E-Verify mandatory , and forces the implementation of a long overdue VISA entry/exit tracking system. Trump's rhetoric has reduced illegal border crossings by more than half. The entry/exit tracking system will identify those that overstay their VISA. In most cases, it would then be relatively easy to track down and deport VISA violators.
6
I strongly disagree! John Stuart Mills' utilitarian principle of "the greatest good for the greatest number" is the guiding principle for me and it should be for others. If $1.5 billion for a wall is what it takes to save the lives of 800,000 young men and women, it's absolutely the right thing to do.
1
I honestly don't think "most voters" care about the wall one way or the other, as long as it doesn't cost very much. It's safe for Democrats to trade it for something, but they should trade it for A LOT! Not just the Dream Act, but also re authorization of CHIPS and long-term FEMA funding.
4
And an Obamacare fix.
Compromise means listening to seriously to alternatives solutions to a given problem, not allowing an idiotic policy to go into effect so as to obtain a highly desirable outcome. There is simply no problem that is solved by repealing DACA while the downsides are overwhelmingly clear. The wall will be a stupendous waste of resources, it will solve nothing while there are many more urgent problems that need to be addressed, such as hurricane relief. Agreeing to money for the wall in exchange of DACA would be not just stupid but a totally unnecessary surrender to salve the inflated ego of Mr. Trump.
28
A wall should not be part of the compromise.
The compromise should provide a path to citizenship for the dreamers.
In return we fix the broken immigration system. Remove the incentives that drive illegal immigration.
1) individuals born is the US should not be granted US citizenship. This is hold over from when the US was unsettled. Europe, Japan and Asia do not follow this policy.
2) Public education is provided only to US citizens and legal residents. Illegal immigrants should be deported within a year and we need to remove the incentives for illegal immigrants to come to the US for the education medical and social programs.
Who could argue about this?
The compromise should provide a path to citizenship for the dreamers.
In return we fix the broken immigration system. Remove the incentives that drive illegal immigration.
1) individuals born is the US should not be granted US citizenship. This is hold over from when the US was unsettled. Europe, Japan and Asia do not follow this policy.
2) Public education is provided only to US citizens and legal residents. Illegal immigrants should be deported within a year and we need to remove the incentives for illegal immigrants to come to the US for the education medical and social programs.
Who could argue about this?
4
"they will have lost all ability to make a principled case against Mr. Trump’s wall"
And what, pray tell, is the principled case against the wall? Most of the noise on the left against the wall claims it is too expensive or won't work, not that it isn't needed or that it would not help cut down on illegal border crossing.
And what, pray tell, is the principled case against the wall? Most of the noise on the left against the wall claims it is too expensive or won't work, not that it isn't needed or that it would not help cut down on illegal border crossing.
5
Jack, it isn't needed and most of the Republican congressmen in border districts consider it a bad idea and a waste of money. they also say it would severely hurt the economies of their districts which rely on people going across daily to do their legal business.
3
Saying it won't work is the same as saying it won't cut down on illegal border crossings.
The noise on the left is that employers should be thrown in jail because they don't use e-Verify, and they knowingly hire undocumented workers.
And, it is expensive. I'd love to use the money to hire ICE to crack down employers and solve this problem at the root, once and for all.
The noise on the left is that employers should be thrown in jail because they don't use e-Verify, and they knowingly hire undocumented workers.
And, it is expensive. I'd love to use the money to hire ICE to crack down employers and solve this problem at the root, once and for all.
1
We're not known for walls. We're known for bridges. It's un-American.
4
Forget the wall, at least in any physical sense. If a majority of Americans supports some relatively easy path to citizenship for DACA kids, I also suspect a majority supports some definitive action on immigration in general, both legal and illegal. This is what the current opportunity to forge a compromise should focus on.
9
I don't think a majority of Americans support a DACA amnesty. Handing out citizenship to them will never happen.
1
The Republicans picked up so many seats in the 2010 and 2014 elections because of gerrymandering. Not because of any deals with Obama that were cut or not cut.
64
Gerrymandering does not explain the loss of senators and governors that the democrats suffered under Obama. It doe not explain the utter devastation they suffered at the state level.
Democrats better wake up. We have a very serious problem. Nominating corporate clowns is not going to win back any votes. Neither will burying our heads and blaming these horrific losses all on gerrymandering.
Democrats better wake up. We have a very serious problem. Nominating corporate clowns is not going to win back any votes. Neither will burying our heads and blaming these horrific losses all on gerrymandering.
1
2014, Ledwith. Not 2010. The census wasn't completed until the end of 2010.
The Karl Rove-designed REDMAP gerrymandering program. REDMAP's effect on the 2012 election is plain," reads a post-election Republican SLC report. "Pennsylvanians cast 83,000 more votes for Democratic U.S. House candidates . . . but elected a 13-5 Republican majority to represent them in Washington; Michiganders cast over 240,000 more votes for Democratic congressional candidates than Republicans, but still elected a 9-5 Republican delegation to Congress.”
Citizen's United dark money funds the process of Red State voter suppression and gerrymandering. It is how the Kochs and Mercers, etc. stay in control.
Citizen's United dark money funds the process of Red State voter suppression and gerrymandering. It is how the Kochs and Mercers, etc. stay in control.
14
Did I write this? Say NO to everything. It works. I'm a dem but can someone tell me the upside of making dreamers such a big deal? They can't vote and how about that solid wall of Latinos who backed Hillary.....not. Hispanics from Puerto Rico and Cuba think illegals are on their own. Dems get smart.
1
Humanitarianism? Even if a "solid wall" of Latinos backed Clinton, Democrats may not be so fortunate next time around if they find themselves rubber-stamping the GOP's worst racist proposals.
Heading mentions "the party" as if the writer is a dues-paying member. Is the NY Times a Democratic nuclear weapon against the President?
1
I don't see "the party" mentioned but, even so, why would it matter? It's an opinion piece (hence the Op Ed section).
1
The Democrats should make a deal for the border wall. The deal being that we will match,hell we'll double what the Mexican Government spends on the wall. We are just waiting for the check to clear. Hey with climate change hell will freeze over too.
56
Trump and Ryan pray it will freeze over.
1
The more likely scenario is that republicans will pass the RAISE bill with DACA tacked in, and present it to democrats as a take-it-or-leave-it option. The $1.5B deal is just not going to happen.
By the way If the polls were correct, Hillary Clinton would our president.
By the way If the polls were correct, Hillary Clinton would our president.
18
Nationally they were correct: the percentage of popular votes she won by was equivalent to the percentages predicted by various polls.
12
This is an opportunity to fix the broken immigration policy.
Give the dreamers a path to citizenship but put in place common sense policies.
Citizenship should not be granted to those simply because they are born on US soil. This is an old policy that existed when the US was unsettled. This policy causes Chinese women who are 8 months pregnant to fly to LAX and simply to get US citizenship. This policy does not exist in Europe or Asia.
In addition, public education will only be provided to US citizens and legal residents. Illegal immigrant children and any other illegal immigrants should be removed within a year so why spend money to educate them. A large percentage of illegal immigration is solely to take advantage of the education, health care and other benefits. These incentive have to be removed to stop the influx of illegal immigration.
Give the dreamers a path to citizenship but put in place common sense policies.
Citizenship should not be granted to those simply because they are born on US soil. This is an old policy that existed when the US was unsettled. This policy causes Chinese women who are 8 months pregnant to fly to LAX and simply to get US citizenship. This policy does not exist in Europe or Asia.
In addition, public education will only be provided to US citizens and legal residents. Illegal immigrant children and any other illegal immigrants should be removed within a year so why spend money to educate them. A large percentage of illegal immigration is solely to take advantage of the education, health care and other benefits. These incentive have to be removed to stop the influx of illegal immigration.
5
But that's not what they predicted, Jonathan - they predicted a Hillary electoral college win. Just go back to all the NYT articles in the months before the elections - it was 85% to 90% certain that Hillary would be president!
On the subject of compromise vs. obstruction, this essay is pretty standard fare. "Compromise is important," it says. "so let's compromise--next time. But not this time, the issue is too important."
It is also tactically wrong, as of Tuesday. Trump has lit the fuse on DACA, and both parties will be blamed equally (or not) if a replacement can't be passed. If anything, the obstructing minority that wouldn't yeild on a small point to protect those kids will suffer more.
And that's if the polls are correct. Too much Democratic policy is driven by self-fulfilling push polls. This one asks about dreamers, but fails to include the issue of legalizing the parents that brought them here. Trump won largely on this issue, to the amazement of pundits who forgot that we don't elect based on the popular vote.
It is also tactically wrong, as of Tuesday. Trump has lit the fuse on DACA, and both parties will be blamed equally (or not) if a replacement can't be passed. If anything, the obstructing minority that wouldn't yeild on a small point to protect those kids will suffer more.
And that's if the polls are correct. Too much Democratic policy is driven by self-fulfilling push polls. This one asks about dreamers, but fails to include the issue of legalizing the parents that brought them here. Trump won largely on this issue, to the amazement of pundits who forgot that we don't elect based on the popular vote.
23
Totally agree....both parties are in this mode!
The wall is the perfect metaphor for the divisive essence of the Trump administration and $1.5 billion is a small price to pay for assuring no DACA deportations. Even if Trump and the Republicans self destruct on health care and tax reform, when you examine the eight Republican Senators running for re-election in 2018 it's obvious the Democrats have absolutely no chance to win the Senate. Six of the Republicans are Red state shoo-ins. Orrin Hatch Utah, John Barasso Wyoming, Jeff Flake Arizona, Bill Corker Tennessee, Debbie Fischer Nebraska, and Roger Wicker Mississippi. Ted Cruz will be favored in a competitive race in Texas, where demographics are increasingly problematic for Republicans. Only Dean Heller in now bluish Nevada will be an underdog. The loss of just one seat guarantees Republicans a majority, even if the Democrats win all 25 contested seats, which is extremely unlikely as they will be fortunate not to lose seats in Indiana, Ohio, and North Dakota. If the Republicans lose two seats Mike Pence's vote will give them control of the Senate.
6
DACA and the Wall are NOT the same, or even comparable. Deporting 800K students, workers, taxpayers will cost our treasury billions, our GDP a full 1%, and our credibility years of good will. The Wall is an appeal to racists, xenophonbes, who are foolishly blaming the children for their lost jobs, their stagnant wages, and the shifting demographics. These are fearful angry white people who enthusiastically vote against their own interests. The rest of America recognizes the Wall was a cynical political ploy. There is no support for the wall. Not one penny.
1
The wall in exchange for E-verify, and harsh employer penalties. Costs nothing, eliminates the pull that draws people here, and only adds a million more competitors to the job market.
16
The wall does not cost nothing. The wall is insane, an environmental and social nightmare, and it won't even work. It is a monument to monumental stupidity. The wall is the LAST thing the federal government needs to spend money on.
2
"The simple fact is that voters support the “liberal” position on DACA"
Most voters support the liberal position on almost everything, from overtime rules to clean air, to the Estate tax, to universal affordable health care, to overturning Citizens United.
Republican power depends upon wealthy donor-funded marketing and branding, and avoiding, during elections, explaining what they plan to do.
Hopefully, as Tomasky indicates, the fact that dreamers are a positive part of our communities has broken through enough to protect them, with enough Republicans joining all Democrats to avoid holding them hostage.
Most voters support the liberal position on almost everything, from overtime rules to clean air, to the Estate tax, to universal affordable health care, to overturning Citizens United.
Republican power depends upon wealthy donor-funded marketing and branding, and avoiding, during elections, explaining what they plan to do.
Hopefully, as Tomasky indicates, the fact that dreamers are a positive part of our communities has broken through enough to protect them, with enough Republicans joining all Democrats to avoid holding them hostage.
104
Or maybe the GOP relies on voters giving pollsters a line of BS, and voting for their actual beliefs in the voting booth - hard to say.
1
I disagree that political maneuvering for future elections is more valuable than the livelihoods of 800,000 folks. I also wouldn't be so sure that the poll numbers you cite will equate with political gains in 2018 and 2020. After all, Trump successfully ran on the promise of 'ending DACA on day one,' and building a wall. Those views, unfortunately, don't preclude one from being elected.
31
I agree that "As for the Dreamers, Democrats should be able to find other ways to help them." Let's establish a "New Americans Work Corp" funded by the federal government, put the Dreamers to work for a year fixing Houston, Florida and then building the wall. In return they get full amnesty and citizenship and a fair wage. It's a simple solution bringing humane relief to the thousands of undocumented workers unable to qualify for disaster relief and will provide an honorable way for these new Americans to earn their citizenship.
12
Finally , common sense.
And help all DACA not only those that have already prospered.
And help all DACA not only those that have already prospered.
This is very very odd request. So now people in New York City have to get to florida or texas, and do things they are unqualified for? Like or hate dreamers this just doesn't make sense. You have to uproot a few hundred thousand dreamers who already graduated. They lose their one and only real job (see: livelihood). There is no way to know if they will ever get another job after they leave it. what happens to their apartments where they live? they have to leave their families for months? I don't see this as making any sense. Isn't there some other way to "earn" citizenship, like being made to volunteer in their OWN neighborhood, after their jobs. There is plenty of work needed all over the country, from cleaning our parks and roads, to schools needing help, etc etc. We don't need to grab a few hundred thousand kids who don't know the first thing about building houses and helping people in a disaster and bring them across the country just because DACA was ended...doesn't make sense
5
Many are already doing that. One even does saving victims of Harvey.
2
There is a seriously inflated conservative estimation that Democrats in general do not favor borders, and do not favor immigration restrictions of any kind -- largely because their party's growth relies on minorities and poverty populations.
There is an equal and opposite perception that conservatives hold their coalition together purely on the basis of fear of foreigners and minorities. Both misperceptions have become deeply entrenched thanks to the peculiar nature of the internet-based news media.
In reality both viewpoints are held only by tiny minorities, while a vast majority share the view that immigration policy has emerged as an inflamed cultural or identity issue simply because it has not been crafted to reflect the economic needs of the USA. That is the intersection between the political parties, and it is ripe for rediscovery by Trump.
There is an equal and opposite perception that conservatives hold their coalition together purely on the basis of fear of foreigners and minorities. Both misperceptions have become deeply entrenched thanks to the peculiar nature of the internet-based news media.
In reality both viewpoints are held only by tiny minorities, while a vast majority share the view that immigration policy has emerged as an inflamed cultural or identity issue simply because it has not been crafted to reflect the economic needs of the USA. That is the intersection between the political parties, and it is ripe for rediscovery by Trump.
32
Thanks, Sequel. But simplistic thinking that casts people and their ideas as extreme caricatures makes for good TV (and other media--including NYT comments). And exagerated descriptions of the "other side" help motivate, but also distort, the average voter and donor.
It will be interesting to see how the immigration debate plays out now.
It will be interesting to see how the immigration debate plays out now.
Trump is essentially using the dreamers as hostages. Unfortunately, we may need to pay some ransom to protect them. The article is right about public opinion, but due to political gerrymandering, the majority does not always win. Witness our current president, who was defeated in the popular vote.
39
"Trump is using the dreamers as hostages." This is a very good point. The first thing you do when a maniac is holding a gun on a group of hostages is put your own ego aside and focus on saving them. If it means giving the maniac pizza and a coke, you do it. In this case the pizza and coke is a few billion dollars for Trump's wall. What matters is saving, what could easily amount to over a million innocent lives.
Yes, winning the popular vote is crucial. Ask President Gore. Running up huge vote totals in CA and NY is not how to win a national election. Fortunately, we do no not govern by mob rule.
The EC exists for a reason. It could use tweaking, but for those who think popular vote is the answer, consider the following:
If you remove the vote totals for BOTH candidates from just two lousy counties, LA and Cook, from the popular vote equation, Trump not only wins the popular vote by 3+ million, but the Illinois electoral votes as well. That is the problem with cherry picking statistics, you can often manipulate them to reinforce your desired outcome.
The EC exists for a reason. It could use tweaking, but for those who think popular vote is the answer, consider the following:
If you remove the vote totals for BOTH candidates from just two lousy counties, LA and Cook, from the popular vote equation, Trump not only wins the popular vote by 3+ million, but the Illinois electoral votes as well. That is the problem with cherry picking statistics, you can often manipulate them to reinforce your desired outcome.
No, Obama is using these people as pawns in a sick political Russian roulette game.
Trump will get his wall, by one deal or another. Tomasky doesn't want to cut this deal, on moral grounds as well as his read of evanescent polls -- the kind of polls that predicted that Hillary would run away with the election on 8 November. I'd suggest that Dems get creative about the deal that COULD be cut, instead of merely accepting Tomasky's "rules" on the art of a deal.
Give Trump the money for his wall, but require in return that the DACA kids get immediate citizenship, not mere protection from summary deportation. PATH to citizenship? These kids have been walking that path all their lives! The DACA program vets these kids, and they must have kept their noses quite clean for YEARS -- as KIDS! They've known no other society, they committed no crime themselves, and they're acculturated Americans. Recognize that with legal status. Go after the parents but recognize reality with the kids.
It's good to see Tomasky repeat yet again what I've pointed out endlessly in this forum for years, that it wasn't until October of 2010 that Mitch McConnell stated that "the single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president" -- months AFTER the ramming of ObamaCare without a single Republican vote, and not at the outset of Obama's first term, as so many still claim. It was a response to liberal excess, not to the proposition of our first black president. But people need their pretexts for hatred, and they need their Peyton Places.
Give Trump the money for his wall, but require in return that the DACA kids get immediate citizenship, not mere protection from summary deportation. PATH to citizenship? These kids have been walking that path all their lives! The DACA program vets these kids, and they must have kept their noses quite clean for YEARS -- as KIDS! They've known no other society, they committed no crime themselves, and they're acculturated Americans. Recognize that with legal status. Go after the parents but recognize reality with the kids.
It's good to see Tomasky repeat yet again what I've pointed out endlessly in this forum for years, that it wasn't until October of 2010 that Mitch McConnell stated that "the single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president" -- months AFTER the ramming of ObamaCare without a single Republican vote, and not at the outset of Obama's first term, as so many still claim. It was a response to liberal excess, not to the proposition of our first black president. But people need their pretexts for hatred, and they need their Peyton Places.
20
'A path to citizenship' implies an immediate green card. That is certainly better than what they have right now, and 99.99% of them would take it.
6
Again with the "rammed through" of ObamaCare. It took almost a year to get that through; the Republicans balked and lied and obfuscated. Not a thing they said about the ACA came true: it didn't bankrupt the nation, it didn't cause thousands to lose their jobs. It's in trouble now because a lot of Republican governors (like mine) refused to implement it. What does Mr. L. call the shenanigans of the current Republican Senate, which didn't even let their own members even see the contents of their "replacement" for the ACA?
6
"Alternate facts" abound in this reviewers world-view. The ACA was NOT "rammed down" anyone's throats. Rather, the ACA legislation was debated on the Senate floor for over 12-months, and included numerous GOP-proposed amendments. Unlike McConnell's plans which were created in back rooms and our Senators were given only a few days to digest and understand prior to voting upon. Let's stop creating this false equivalency between the current GOP and the Obama adminstrations - they simply could not be more different.
7
We should likely brace for more borderline lucid actions from djt, but remember he doesn't do things because " it's the right thing to do "; after all, just because a broken clock tells the correct time twice a day - once every 43,200 seconds - doesn't excuse the 43,199 seconds it's dead wrong before it's right again.
Instead, we should remember djt will be looking for Dem Senators to peel away/bully/cajole who are up for re-election in states that he carried - like Sen. Heitkamp, whom he loaded aboard Air Force One and took to N.D. with him after the DACA deal with Chuck & Nancy. Heitkamp is a Dem up for re-election next year, in a state djt carried by 30 points.
We may also see more Chuck & Nancy deals because djt knows that after the 2018 mid-terms, the only thing between him and impeachment could be the Democratic Speaker.
Lastly, of course, the cynics say djt's deal had nothing to do with DACA, that it's all about FEMA funding, since FEMA is out of money, and since Mar-a-Loco (hat tip Frank Bruni) is about to get slapped by Irma.
After all, everyone knows how much djt likes jetting off to his Mar-a-Loco weekends, but just as Labor Day is over, Irma is walloping the place he best likes to hob-nob with the $400,000 membership fee set he relishes rubbing shoulders with, where his butler trained everyone to 'All rise' when he enters the room:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/16/us/politics/donald-trump-butler-mar-a...
Instead, we should remember djt will be looking for Dem Senators to peel away/bully/cajole who are up for re-election in states that he carried - like Sen. Heitkamp, whom he loaded aboard Air Force One and took to N.D. with him after the DACA deal with Chuck & Nancy. Heitkamp is a Dem up for re-election next year, in a state djt carried by 30 points.
We may also see more Chuck & Nancy deals because djt knows that after the 2018 mid-terms, the only thing between him and impeachment could be the Democratic Speaker.
Lastly, of course, the cynics say djt's deal had nothing to do with DACA, that it's all about FEMA funding, since FEMA is out of money, and since Mar-a-Loco (hat tip Frank Bruni) is about to get slapped by Irma.
After all, everyone knows how much djt likes jetting off to his Mar-a-Loco weekends, but just as Labor Day is over, Irma is walloping the place he best likes to hob-nob with the $400,000 membership fee set he relishes rubbing shoulders with, where his butler trained everyone to 'All rise' when he enters the room:
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/16/us/politics/donald-trump-butler-mar-a...
95
Wait a moment, there is no DACA deal between Donald Trump and the Democrats. The deal only covers keeping the government running and funding hurricane relief.
1
Deporting them would seem contrary to Trump's objectives regarding economic growth. However, that does not guarantee he would not act contrary to his longer run objectives.
If President Trump had the objective of making the investigation of Russian interference in the election go away, or at least have the investigation become less thorough and intense, firing FBI director Comey, would seem a very short-sighted and counter-productive action. As we now know, firing Comey, and then saying on national television that his reason was the Russia investigation, led to the appointment of Mueller.
Taking actions which may generate short-term gratification especially in terms of appearing to address a problem, but make the problem eventually much worse is behavior well known. Professional bond traders and portfolio managers have analogies that refer to such situations. An analogy used when the trades actually make the problem eventually worse is that of being very cold under the covers and in bed and urgently have to go to the bathroom. Your problem is that if you get out of bed you will be even colder. Urinating in the bed will relieve your immediate problems, but make your situation worse. .."
https://seekingalpha.com/article/4082278