What, exactly, did they accomplish before they were killed? Oh, wait--it's secret...
3
Difficult to find the appropriate words for the respect I have for these women and men that serve quietly and without fanfare. Much of our freedoms rest on their service to country.
1
what a waste! history clearly tells us that Afghanistan is a death zone for foreign fighters. it's way past time to leave, every American! let the Afghanis deal with their own issues. and if terrorists have camps and act against us or our allies, then missile them en masse to oblivion. no more boots on the ground!
1
Thank you for this article. Many of us never hear the stories about these men and women to sacrafice their lives and their familes for all Americans.
2
Thanks for the terrific story. These guys do so much with so little credit. The only thing I question is the word "gunslinger." Is this a term they call themselves? If not, I find it a little pejorative, like muscle or heat or hired gun, which they are not. Peter Greene
3
This is of course a tragic story and I do not take lightly the violent deaths of two young men who no doubt felt they were serving their country. However, I did not request this, do not approve of their activities as a tax-paying citizen and have a hard time believing that they were in fact serving me and my family, my community and my country. We are naive to assume that just because the govt assigns "duty" to one of our many brave and talented young men and women in the armed forces (or CIA or whatever) that they are actually doing anything other than serving the whims of the wealthy power mongers who run our country. Many of us here in the U.S. are reasonably intelligent educated people and we need data/evidence to justify any and all expenditures of money, weapons, lives etc. I understand the need for some level of secrecy for brief periods of time and in limited circumstances, but this stuff is way over the top. EVERYTHING they are doing should be brought out into the clear light of day as quickly as possible so that the U.S. citizens can have some say in what is supposed to be a self-governing system. Maybe I would totally appreciate what these men died for if I had access to a logical explanation. Unfortunately I don't expect that anytime soon. We have many problems here on our home soil that we should be focusing on, instead of poking more and more hornet's nests just so our corporate elite can run rough-shod over the globe.
3
While I feel for any parents who lose children, wives who have lost husbands (and vice versa), children who have lost parents, it is impossible for me to muster any sympathy for these men. They weren't drafted, they weren't teenagers, and they knew what they were doing, and wanted to do it. Warriors? What an outmoded word. All soldiers are trained killers. Perhaps they are necessary when the cause is just. But these men and all like them have been part and parcel of the absolute ruination of entire societies. And for what? Nothing even remotely just.
“How do we maintain the level of experience and expertise in a war that is going to last for another 20 or 30 years or longer?”
This is madness. It's madness that we have been in Afghanistan this long.
Honestly, it's madness that our nation ever embarked upon the idea of occupying Afghanistan in an attempt to turn the land into a modern western democratic nation state.
We should have only gone in to take out Al Qaeda there and get Bin Laden, the latter we failed to even do at the time.
We have stayed there because of some modern day take on the "manifest destiny" delusion. Now it's to save face as no leaders in our nation or military want to be the ones to say we can do no more and leave, as well as to sacrifice lives to the Military Industrial Complex.
We are told if we leave it will mean terrorist groups will have a safe haven. Well, the truth is they have safe havens in many areas across the world now thanks to our wars of choice and the chaos we sowed and the world reaps the suffering and deaths. Staying in Afghanistan has no upside, for anyone, save those who profit greatly from the war while paying no price, and those who lead us who are too cowardly and in possession of so much false pride that they cannot stomach the very thought of losing a bit of face.
All of it has been and, unless we end withdraw completely, will continue to be madness.
This is madness. It's madness that we have been in Afghanistan this long.
Honestly, it's madness that our nation ever embarked upon the idea of occupying Afghanistan in an attempt to turn the land into a modern western democratic nation state.
We should have only gone in to take out Al Qaeda there and get Bin Laden, the latter we failed to even do at the time.
We have stayed there because of some modern day take on the "manifest destiny" delusion. Now it's to save face as no leaders in our nation or military want to be the ones to say we can do no more and leave, as well as to sacrifice lives to the Military Industrial Complex.
We are told if we leave it will mean terrorist groups will have a safe haven. Well, the truth is they have safe havens in many areas across the world now thanks to our wars of choice and the chaos we sowed and the world reaps the suffering and deaths. Staying in Afghanistan has no upside, for anyone, save those who profit greatly from the war while paying no price, and those who lead us who are too cowardly and in possession of so much false pride that they cannot stomach the very thought of losing a bit of face.
All of it has been and, unless we end withdraw completely, will continue to be madness.
7
Sacrifices such as these have gone unnoticed and unrecognized since the CIA founding. Stars on the wall tell the tale. No uniforms, no medals that you can show and lots of risk are the lot of these government workers (for that is who they are). Take a mental moment to think about their lives of service.
That such men and women exist is a credit to our nation. One does wonder what effect a Trump has on recruiting quality and sustainability.
That such men and women exist is a credit to our nation. One does wonder what effect a Trump has on recruiting quality and sustainability.
3
Humbling story - thank you for your care in reporting it.
"For those who fight to protect it, freedom has a flavor that the protected will never know” - a price paid in particular by the spouses and children of these brave Americans. This is truly the land of the free, because of the brave. Thank God for such people!
"For those who fight to protect it, freedom has a flavor that the protected will never know” - a price paid in particular by the spouses and children of these brave Americans. This is truly the land of the free, because of the brave. Thank God for such people!
I just read this article and looked at these handsome young men and ask myself why? Do we ever understand why we send our young men to these horrible places to fight for the USA and sacrifice their lives? I feel for their families as nothing can replace a husband and father and son!
My father was a CIA sigint officer in the Southeastern theater from 1959 until 1973. The story all those years was that he worked for the State Department. It wasn't until his later years that he began to tell stories of his harrowing adventures in the war, and always with a very heavy heart. I'm afraid the experience sucked the life out of him.
2
If one works directly for the CIA in operations abroad - such as SAD, that individual is not an "operative", but an "officer". The term "operative", if used at all, is largely reserved for local nationals who carry out operational tasking and are paid, much like informants, on a case-by-case basis... and there are no benefits.
1
There is a reason that Afghanistan is called the graveyard of empires.
5
The fact that President Trump has pledged to keep U.S. military forces in Afghanistan means that our CIA presence there will likely not be as large and it will be better protected. Typically Special Forces assists the CIA with any necessary paramilitary activities. The fact, if it is so a fact, that the Agency has gotten into maintaining its own military detail then more casualties should be expected. Leave it to the NYT to out members of our intelligence services and put at risk those who worked with them. It's a good thing that we did not put a time limit on defeating the Nazis like the writers seem to expect for this conflict. The Agency has suffered by having leaders like George Tenet and John Brennan who were nothing more than political hacks more interested in deceiving the American people than collecting and intelligently analyzing information. Hoke and Delemarre were courageous patriots who deserve better than having their sacrifices exploited by political hacks at the NYT.
1
War is a contact sport. How many problems has the CIA created - they are in fact a too powerful, non-elected .all-knowing , faultless branch of our government. They know whats best for the country- except when they dont. Karma !
1
Aside from your first sentance I thought you were speaking of the Obama administration.
1
The Department of Defense used to be titled The Department of War. Perhaps it should we should revert back to the previous title with a one-word update to clarify its actual purpose: The Department of War Profits.
In my 63 years I have witnessed these American wars: the Vietnam War, Bay of Pigs Invasion, Invasion of Grenada, Bombing of Libya, Invasion of Panama, Gulf War, Intervention in the Somali Civil War, Intervention in Haiti, Bosnian War, Iraq War (2003–2011), War on ISIL, War in Afghanistan 2001 to present...
This partial list does not include foreign assassinations and military coups sponsored by the CIA and State Department.
If we had not droped one bomb or put one soldier into any of these countries since 1953, would our nation be crushed by now, or would we be around ten trillion dollars richer?
In my 63 years I have witnessed these American wars: the Vietnam War, Bay of Pigs Invasion, Invasion of Grenada, Bombing of Libya, Invasion of Panama, Gulf War, Intervention in the Somali Civil War, Intervention in Haiti, Bosnian War, Iraq War (2003–2011), War on ISIL, War in Afghanistan 2001 to present...
This partial list does not include foreign assassinations and military coups sponsored by the CIA and State Department.
If we had not droped one bomb or put one soldier into any of these countries since 1953, would our nation be crushed by now, or would we be around ten trillion dollars richer?
10
Yours is pure speculation I dare to say. However, doing nothing is in fact doing something. We did nothing about the rise the Islamic terror and today we reap the rewards.
Who we elect as our leader does in fact matter. A true and great leader cannot pussyfoot foot around looking for an easy way out, an avenue to make it appear acceptable to kick the can down the road saddling the next occupant with an even greater threat. This we all can plainly see with North Korea.
And finally the trillions you speak of would, if history is any indicator, those trillions would be no doubt squander.
The president is correct in his appraisal of D.C. as being a swamp. A swamp of lobbyists, crony capitalist and representative whom feed them. The the everyday commuter taxpayer is a forgotten entity, lied to and used only to fund their many times worthless studies, projects and programs.
Who we elect as our leader does in fact matter. A true and great leader cannot pussyfoot foot around looking for an easy way out, an avenue to make it appear acceptable to kick the can down the road saddling the next occupant with an even greater threat. This we all can plainly see with North Korea.
And finally the trillions you speak of would, if history is any indicator, those trillions would be no doubt squander.
The president is correct in his appraisal of D.C. as being a swamp. A swamp of lobbyists, crony capitalist and representative whom feed them. The the everyday commuter taxpayer is a forgotten entity, lied to and used only to fund their many times worthless studies, projects and programs.
1
Thank you for sharing their stories of sacrifice.
8
I admire all these men and women. They are so talented and impressive. I wish they, and others like them, would use their gifts in any other manner than participating in a senseless war. I wish they weren't willing to give up their valuable lives for this. Our government is using these people who are so patriotic and who believe they are accomplishing something meaningful and worthwhile. Instead, we have the senseless loss of these smart, talented, dedicated and patriotic men and women who could have lived full lives and been there for their spouses and children. They died in a senseless war which might never end. We will never know what they could have contributed to society if they had just chosen a different path. I am so sorry for their family and other loved ones.
8
The CIA has left us with a "legacy of ashes" as a leading book notes. By overthrowing democratically elected governments in the Muslim world and propping brutal and corrupt dictators from Sisi to the Saudi and UAE families, they have created the very terrorism they are tasked to fight- hence the "for-ever war" they and American are condemned to fight but are too dim to see beyond.
8
Thanks for honoring these silent warriors. In the great debates of the day, this article serves to remind us all that freedom is not free and that brave men lay down their lives every day so we can debate.
7
Dear conservative democrat I appreciate your thoughts on freedom. But I have to know, how can it be that you being a conservative and a democrat, can you possibly support any of today's leaders in the democrat party? I'm puzzled.
If you could, could you provide me with the names of reps you support and oppose and why? Take all the time you need.
If you could, could you provide me with the names of reps you support and oppose and why? Take all the time you need.
"C.I.A. paramilitary officers... spirited Hamid Karzai, the future president, into the country. "
Like spiriting Sygman Rhee to South Korea in 1945, this policy of importing exiles to front for US occupations is one reason why "They hate us."
Like spiriting Sygman Rhee to South Korea in 1945, this policy of importing exiles to front for US occupations is one reason why "They hate us."
8
I like that, ' they hate us.' Then I think if such a statement being true those whom come into our country by illegal means come for one or more reasons.
They come to harm us or take advantage of our system. Do you agree?
They come to harm us or take advantage of our system. Do you agree?
The deaths of these two brave patriots are reasons for grief and reflection.
The story mentions that the ranks of the SAD are often filled by soldiers and sailors from the various members of the military special operations community.
Why not train sufficient numbers of special forces operators as case officers and give them the missions now carried out by the SAD. This would allow the Agency to get back to it's raison d'être: conducting espionage. CIA Officers often decry the usurpation by the military of Agency missions. If they would get out of combat missions and let the military do its job, they could do theirs.
The story mentions that the ranks of the SAD are often filled by soldiers and sailors from the various members of the military special operations community.
Why not train sufficient numbers of special forces operators as case officers and give them the missions now carried out by the SAD. This would allow the Agency to get back to it's raison d'être: conducting espionage. CIA Officers often decry the usurpation by the military of Agency missions. If they would get out of combat missions and let the military do its job, they could do theirs.
3
I think your missing the big picture here. The piece states those individuals will not be easy to replace. What they don't say however, is why. The most likely reason is the lack of quality recruits. For the most part the young today are unfit for military service. Especially the type of service required for that line of duty.
The so called "War On Terror" is a massive scam on the taxpayers, both in the vast amounts of money it is a waste of, and in the enormous impact - primarily destructive, it has on civilian populations wherever it is waged (creating far more terrorists than we are killing). Added to that are the costs incurred in lives and limb of our armed forces personnel. And all for WHAT?? To hunt down an ex CIA operative so called 'mastermind' of attacks who was finally located in Pakistan (a so called allay). When are we going to put a halt to this idiocy?
10
When? When we drain the swamp.
1
The idea the US will stay at war in Afghanistan another 20 or 30 years is untenable. Foolish. Delusional. Irresponsible.
18
The CIA is out of control and over it's long and sordid history has done more to damage the fabric of this nation, and other nations than any other institution within the government. These two men, for no other reason then that they are human beings who died before their time deserve our respect and consideration. But the more these 'hero worship' columns continue without a thorough and honest discussion about the moral and ethical bankruptcy of the CIA, the more we will suffer the consequences as a nation and world.
11
More casualties of the Drug War. Can't let lives get in the way of making some cash on heroin.
6
When are Americans finally going to realize that Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria are our newest Vietnams.
The U.S. can never win these wars.
We need to get out of Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria now. Let Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan fight their own wars.
The U.S. can never win these wars.
We need to get out of Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria now. Let Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan fight their own wars.
6
These brave men are heroes. They put their lives on the line for all of us. Let's respect them and leave the political comments for another day.
8
That’s going to be one of the challenges for the government,” he said. “How do we maintain the level of experience and expertise in a war that is going to last for another 20 or 30 years or longer?”
I would like to think the american people aren't going to put up with 20 to 30 years more of war in Afghanistan.
I would like to think the american people aren't going to put up with 20 to 30 years more of war in Afghanistan.
7
There is justifiable room to debate the extent that a superpower ought to influence other nations and peoples. Can any Americans really claim that we have no responsibilities whatsoever?
That being said, these brave men died with honor in service to us. If all of our sons grow up to be such men we will have little to worry about. The only honorable response is: thank you, and rest in peace.
That being said, these brave men died with honor in service to us. If all of our sons grow up to be such men we will have little to worry about. The only honorable response is: thank you, and rest in peace.
6
Let us honor the fallen soldiers. Let us also question why they had to fight. The ongoing argument about Afghanistan is: 911. Before 911 we did not want to occupy it, we just didn't want the Russians to. 911 happened because OBL planned the attack there. Ergo: we occupy the place so no attacks like 911 will occur. Think this through. An attack like 911 could be planned in dozens of Muslim countries, and we don't occupy them. An attack could be planned there now, and we might still not be able to stop it. I sometimes get cynical and wonder if we are there to keep our soldiers trained for combat, and our weapons up to date through testing them.
8
CIA will do what the president tells them to do, and its operatives will continue to die in Afghanistan. It's good that the Times gives them space as remembrance for their service and as an attempt to put faces and context to the lives of people who necessarily serve behind the scenes, but it doesn't lessen the sense of waste so many of us feel about loss of American life in a hopeless cause.
President Trump did not own Afghanistan. He should have announced the withdrawal of all our forces other than advisors to continue training Afghan soldiers and police, functionaries and bureaucrats. The saddest part of this piece is the estimate by one CIA operative that we will fight this war for another 20-30 years, because it means more American blood spilled in a lost cause.
The Taliban has no other object on which to dedicate its people and other resources but the re-taking of what it lost. Afghanistan remains a major proxy killing field for the interests of Pakistan and India. After over fifteen years of our blood and fortune, its culture remains tribal, closed, corrupt and exploitative of women. To change its society into an image of what we regard as both wholesome and viable would require that we swap out its adults, acculturate the children ourselves and remain there generationally. We can't do that and we won't. Eventually, the Taliban will win.
And all those nameless stars on the Langley wall will remain as sad testimony to blood sacrifices made in a hopeless cause.
President Trump did not own Afghanistan. He should have announced the withdrawal of all our forces other than advisors to continue training Afghan soldiers and police, functionaries and bureaucrats. The saddest part of this piece is the estimate by one CIA operative that we will fight this war for another 20-30 years, because it means more American blood spilled in a lost cause.
The Taliban has no other object on which to dedicate its people and other resources but the re-taking of what it lost. Afghanistan remains a major proxy killing field for the interests of Pakistan and India. After over fifteen years of our blood and fortune, its culture remains tribal, closed, corrupt and exploitative of women. To change its society into an image of what we regard as both wholesome and viable would require that we swap out its adults, acculturate the children ourselves and remain there generationally. We can't do that and we won't. Eventually, the Taliban will win.
And all those nameless stars on the Langley wall will remain as sad testimony to blood sacrifices made in a hopeless cause.
21
Whether the cause is hopeless depends on the cause. If the cause is to change Afghanistan into a "wholesome and viable" culture, then you are right; it is hopeless. But that is not the cause; that is your strawman. The cause is to prevent an Islamic caliphate from forming there and in Pakistan, which has nuclear weapons. This will be a long, long war. And, unfortunately, it is necessary. We simply cannot afford to have crazed Islamists in possession of a nuclear power, like Pakistan. I am so grateful for those who are fighting it, including my son, a marine lieutenant.
4
It took six years to defeat the German - axis powers. They were armed to the teeth with tanks, planes, missiles, and over 30 million troops.
On the other hand Afghanistan has AK-47’s, pick-up trucks, roadside bombs and left over weapons WE gave them 30 years ago.
We have a multi-TRILLION dollar arsenal and we’re not winning after sixteen years?!
The NUMBER ONE reason we are still there is because as long as there are no photographs, videos and objective media coverage from on the ground there is no outrage here. This is the TOTAL opposite of Vietnam. That war was lost at home. Life Magazine, Time, Walter Cronkite, et al.
The Afghanistan war is invisible. Guess what? It doesn’t even have a name!
Psss… That’s the plan!
On the other hand Afghanistan has AK-47’s, pick-up trucks, roadside bombs and left over weapons WE gave them 30 years ago.
We have a multi-TRILLION dollar arsenal and we’re not winning after sixteen years?!
The NUMBER ONE reason we are still there is because as long as there are no photographs, videos and objective media coverage from on the ground there is no outrage here. This is the TOTAL opposite of Vietnam. That war was lost at home. Life Magazine, Time, Walter Cronkite, et al.
The Afghanistan war is invisible. Guess what? It doesn’t even have a name!
Psss… That’s the plan!
43
You put your finger directly on what the Pentagon learned from Vietnam - NEVER let a free press loose in a war zone. The whole idea of embedded reporters and highly controlled and restricted access along with the ever-present censorship threat, has made the coverage of Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, you name it, a very pale reflection of the extraordinary job that the press - both American and foreign journalists and photographers - did in Vietnam. That type of coverage will never happen again and this article illustrates the results.
5
Let's make this clearer. "Secret" wars require deceit. Deceit is another word for lying. These wars require lying to the rest fo the world and lying to American citizens about something as important as the US government using its terrifying resources to go abroad and systematically kill a lot of people with zero accountability. What could possibly go wrong ... that has not already. How stupid lazy and corrupt are we?
16
I'm don't think "Park River" is in S.D.? North Dakota maybe? More likely, a San Diego suburb? but fact check is in order.
3
Try as I might, I just don't feel much sympathy for these men.
There are others way to make a living than killing people and training others to kill people.
There are others way to make a living than killing people and training others to kill people.
12
Well no that you mention the Vietnam war , I remember talk of air america and plane loads of heroine , and now we here the same thing about the black tar trade out Afghan, not to mention the streets are awash with it in states . Is this a war aganst terror or repeat of old opium wars of British empire .
8
More good and decent men thrown into the jaws of the wolves of war. Their deaths regrettably were pointless.
So many soldiers from different countries have perished in Afghanistan.
Why do we think it will be any different for our nation than it was for the Brits or the Russians?
If there was a draft and all had to serve we would have abandoned this madness years ago. Instead, we funnel our volunteers into hell's teeth year and year, achieving no result other than death for the locals, our enemies and our own.
What a sadness for these two men's families. And our nation.
So many soldiers from different countries have perished in Afghanistan.
Why do we think it will be any different for our nation than it was for the Brits or the Russians?
If there was a draft and all had to serve we would have abandoned this madness years ago. Instead, we funnel our volunteers into hell's teeth year and year, achieving no result other than death for the locals, our enemies and our own.
What a sadness for these two men's families. And our nation.
14
Deaths in "Secret C.I.A.Afghan War"?
And where's the clamor to investigate?
And where's the clamor to investigate?
7
at least my dad (WW2 Pacific vet) and his fellow vet buddies no longer have to watch the leftists demonize the GOOD MEN that fight FOR this once great nation
3
You wouldn't be talking about it being a "once-great nation" if there was anything about fighting there which was "FOR" our nation. This is a fight that does nothing to preserve our liberty and has no reason for our participation.
1
I very seriously doubt these men were fighting for this great nation. They are fighting a war for control of poppy fields and their end product.
4
There is no Park River, SD. There is, however, a Park River, ND.
2
"...Trump has pledged to keep us in Afghanistan with no end in sight...."
I doubt this is a fair inference from Trump's announced position on the war. However, may we infer from its tone that NYT's 8-year tolerance of Obama's dithering in Afghanistan and his other Middle East blunders will not be extended to this President?
If so, what a surprise! LOL.
I doubt this is a fair inference from Trump's announced position on the war. However, may we infer from its tone that NYT's 8-year tolerance of Obama's dithering in Afghanistan and his other Middle East blunders will not be extended to this President?
If so, what a surprise! LOL.
4
These are, for the most part, ex-military who agree to work for the CIA, who surrender their passport, assume a different identity, and therefore no longer "exist." They're told they'll be paid "$______ every six months" but they could die within that time, or, since they don't "exist" the CIA could have them killed so they don't have to be paid.
How do I know this? I know a Viet-Nam veteran who told me after evacuating Saigon in 75, that he was approached by the CIA who offered him this "job" in Angola. He smartly turned down the offer,
How do I know this? I know a Viet-Nam veteran who told me after evacuating Saigon in 75, that he was approached by the CIA who offered him this "job" in Angola. He smartly turned down the offer,
3
As usual, the Times has it wrong and most commenters here get it right.
While my condolences go to the families of these men, I have stronger feelings for the civilian Afghanis and many American soldiers.
When will we get out of "the graveyard of empires?" It is not acceptable to Americans that we fight forever or even now. It is even less acceptable to the rest of the world and Afghanis (see polls.) The Taliban will win.
I expect we will stay as long as there is money to be made for the MIC.
We should listen to Ike. That is what this and all our forever wars are about.
While my condolences go to the families of these men, I have stronger feelings for the civilian Afghanis and many American soldiers.
When will we get out of "the graveyard of empires?" It is not acceptable to Americans that we fight forever or even now. It is even less acceptable to the rest of the world and Afghanis (see polls.) The Taliban will win.
I expect we will stay as long as there is money to be made for the MIC.
We should listen to Ike. That is what this and all our forever wars are about.
15
Tell me again, why is Pakistan considered an ally? Why do we give them billions in aid and advanced weapons? Why haven't we bombed them back to the stone age?
4
Well for one thing they have nukes which makes them respectable. Soon we will make a deal with North Korea and they will be our good buddies also.
1
What wholesome, all American boys! Just the kind of boy-next-door that every father wants his daughter to marry. Football and the stuff of Hollywood movies. These are the men we celebrate in our culture. If only they were fighting the war on drugs we would have won that decades ago. It's all the fault of the liberals for not supporting our troops.
Thank you, New York Times, for letting us know about the important events in Afghanistan.
Thank you, New York Times, for letting us know about the important events in Afghanistan.
2
This reminds me once again of the three people I knew from high school who died in Vietnam. For what, you might ask? I have no idea. They are now forgotten by all but their immediate families and a few friends. When will we ever learn?
16
Americans are steeped in The Myth of Redemptive Violence and drink it like Kool Aid. It's promoted in our movies, military recruiting adverts, literature and it is what lures people to volunteer for this work. Why can't we invest in people and peace instead of destruction and death? Hasn't history taught us anything?
When I bring to mind those who I would call a "hero", an Army ranger or CIA operative is not what comes to mind because the rhetoric states we are fighting for freedom when it is really about money/gold/oil/corporate profits.
I'm alarmed that one interviewee here commented that we are in for 20-30 more years. How will we even keep track of what we are fighting for?
When I bring to mind those who I would call a "hero", an Army ranger or CIA operative is not what comes to mind because the rhetoric states we are fighting for freedom when it is really about money/gold/oil/corporate profits.
I'm alarmed that one interviewee here commented that we are in for 20-30 more years. How will we even keep track of what we are fighting for?
11
Can some PLEASE EXPLAIN this:
“How do we maintain the level of experience and expertise in a war that is going to last for another 20 or 30 years or longer?”
20 or 30 years, or longer? Is this credible? Does anyone actually know why we are there? The only reason I can figure is to maintain a buffer between India and Pakistan, who might push the button if they stepped into a vacuum of power after USA withdrawal - does any care to comment?
“How do we maintain the level of experience and expertise in a war that is going to last for another 20 or 30 years or longer?”
20 or 30 years, or longer? Is this credible? Does anyone actually know why we are there? The only reason I can figure is to maintain a buffer between India and Pakistan, who might push the button if they stepped into a vacuum of power after USA withdrawal - does any care to comment?
4
How many more 100s of billions we will spend over there instead of here, for our schools, flood protection, bridges, healthcare, and paying down our debt? How many more service men and women will have to die or become disabled or injured over there, and for what? Stop terrorists coming over? When was the last time an Afghan terrorist was observed on US soil? Would it not be more effective and much less costly to protect our borders from terrorists?
Time has come to inform the president and the congress that we, the American people, do not want to continue this war. Time has come to begin mass protests to exit from this unwinnable, unjustified, and wasteful war. This cause may unite almost all of us.
Time has come to inform the president and the congress that we, the American people, do not want to continue this war. Time has come to begin mass protests to exit from this unwinnable, unjustified, and wasteful war. This cause may unite almost all of us.
9
When are the press going to start stating the obvious: that "Benghazi" was a CIA "failure" (not really a failure but a tragedy). The GOP used that tragedy to attack Hillary Clinton, when it is obvious that the State Dept. was simply covering for the CIA (as it is supposed to do). State wasn't exactly opening a "civilian services" desk in the middle of a jihadi civil war, after all. This is why Gen. Petraeus--then the CIA Director-- played such a central role in drafting the so-called "talking points." Did Trey Gowdy and the other Republicans understand this? If so, why did they distort the situation?
4
If these people are actually heroes, why does the CIA not announce this to all world, without secrecy? Because we no longer debate what we are trying to accomplish with these wars, and the real reasons for them must also remain a secret, or these wars would end.
5
Mission accomplished per Bush aboard the aircraft carrier. The only mission accomplished is the US getting stuck in a never ending war. As heroic as these CIA fighters are, let us not forget they wore foreign uniforms occupying a country that showed no favoritism for other foreign uniforms such as the British, the Russians and Alexander's Macedonians. Whoever thinks we can do better is delusional.
5
Let's obtain something meaningful out of Afghanistan,
Rare Earth Metaks.
Very precious and valuable high tech materials.
More strategic than opium.
CIA- SAD can set up the extraction and processing facilities.
Use part of the proceeds to fund activities and support the families of SAD.
Create jobs for WVA coal miners in combat zones.
With great bonus osyvand healthcare benefits.
Rare Earth Metaks.
Very precious and valuable high tech materials.
More strategic than opium.
CIA- SAD can set up the extraction and processing facilities.
Use part of the proceeds to fund activities and support the families of SAD.
Create jobs for WVA coal miners in combat zones.
With great bonus osyvand healthcare benefits.
1
A sad story about 2 good men but why focus on them? Over the life of the CIA there are only 125 names on the wall - not a terribly high toll compared to the 300+ per week GI's casualties during Vietnam. These 2 men were professionals with exceptional training, experience and well aware of the risks. Why are they more worthy of a story than the 20 year old PFC from small town America who completes about 22 weeks of training and off to war....At this stage of Afghanistan/Iraq any death of is a waste.
6
Very sad about the CIA deaths. My street is named after a local resident who was a CIA operative.
Will Congress be launching multiple investigations into how this happened, same as Benghazi? Of course, the Americans killed in Benghazi weren't CIA operatives at all; one was an ambassador, the others were paid mercenaries.
I'm curious why their lives were deemed more important to the Republican Congress than the lives of those in this article.
Will Congress be launching multiple investigations into how this happened, same as Benghazi? Of course, the Americans killed in Benghazi weren't CIA operatives at all; one was an ambassador, the others were paid mercenaries.
I'm curious why their lives were deemed more important to the Republican Congress than the lives of those in this article.
24
Amazing the lifetime of courage, and sacrifice for their country and their faith in and great love for our democratic freedoms. God bless all their souls and their grieving families too. There are some who give everything for their country, including their lives, and others who just want to strip it bare due to their rapacious greed and selfishness.
3
What if they gave a war and nobody came? The CIA did its job.
It is unfortunate that the US and others fight wars on the QT, better known as deniable wars. It is even more unfortunate that many of these wars feature the wrong strategy—Afghanistan is a prime example. The US aim of the ‘first‘ war in Afghanistan was elimination of the Taliban. The strategy was arming the tribes to accomplish this end. They did it, after which, the US ignored the need for continuing support.
Thereafter, US aim turned to democracy building; hence the bags of cash to Karzai. Shades of the ordinary practice by all politicians everywhere to take care of their own: Bridges to Nowhere, etc.
The war will end when the US again makes the tribes its targets of support.
It is unfortunate that the US and others fight wars on the QT, better known as deniable wars. It is even more unfortunate that many of these wars feature the wrong strategy—Afghanistan is a prime example. The US aim of the ‘first‘ war in Afghanistan was elimination of the Taliban. The strategy was arming the tribes to accomplish this end. They did it, after which, the US ignored the need for continuing support.
Thereafter, US aim turned to democracy building; hence the bags of cash to Karzai. Shades of the ordinary practice by all politicians everywhere to take care of their own: Bridges to Nowhere, etc.
The war will end when the US again makes the tribes its targets of support.
4
Living by the sword frequently necessitates dying by it too. As Buffy St Marie sang, "he is the universal soldier and he really is to blame, his orders come far away and no more." What does service of this type say about the psyche of those involved?
In order to serve in this capacity, it is imperative that one believe implicitly in the philosophy of the conflict. In my experience of Special Forces types, which, as a former Army officer myself, is diverse enough to offer an opinion, I question how educated individuals, resilient enough for dire combat, can commit themselves to the risk of killing and being killed, based on a typically stilted world view that is generally held as sacrosanct, but seems disingenuous beyond that clique.
I recall that Michael Spann, killed in 2001, was implicated in torturing an American suspected of fighting with the Taliban, an act which was partially filmed and found its way into the media. I wonder if covert conflict simply allows a place for certain personality types to manifest? I grieve for the dead on all sides in this hideous war without end.
In order to serve in this capacity, it is imperative that one believe implicitly in the philosophy of the conflict. In my experience of Special Forces types, which, as a former Army officer myself, is diverse enough to offer an opinion, I question how educated individuals, resilient enough for dire combat, can commit themselves to the risk of killing and being killed, based on a typically stilted world view that is generally held as sacrosanct, but seems disingenuous beyond that clique.
I recall that Michael Spann, killed in 2001, was implicated in torturing an American suspected of fighting with the Taliban, an act which was partially filmed and found its way into the media. I wonder if covert conflict simply allows a place for certain personality types to manifest? I grieve for the dead on all sides in this hideous war without end.
9
Rest in peace. My thoughts and prayers to their families who must now go on without their beloved partner and father. "Those who wait also serve."
It breaks my heart that our government sent our best to the front lines to die. Live's are just statistics to them. These men should have been providing expertise not performing soldier duties. Is this a plan to rid our CIA of the old guard? Trump has made it clear he only wants men who are loyal to his lawlessness in our security forces. God bless these fallen heroes and their families. God bless the men who are still out there believing they are defending us at home.
This is for Mrs. Hoke, who was concerned that she was breaking her husband's code. There are many of us out here who gain an appreciation and respect for people we never knew existed, thanks to articles like this. I think in the long run it helps your family, and it helps your late husband's colleagues, if the nation is aware of what some of its most dedicated people have sacrificed for it. Even if we were to disapprove of the policy, (and I'm not sure that I do -- we were almost all for attacking the country that sheltered Bin Laden, after 9/11) -- that does not invalidate the heroism or the sacrifices that individuals made, in our name.
3
Breaks your heart. Congress needs to authorize wars and we need a draft so the citizens can weigh the benefits and risks. Afghanistan is a good illustration of why.
4
RIP. It's past time to withdraw from Afghanistan. The US never had any business there.
I would like to believe that the conclusion I've arrived at regarding US foreign policy and conflicts existing strictly for the reason of issuing fat resupply contracts to our military-industrial complex is wrong.
I would like to believe that the conclusion I've arrived at regarding US foreign policy and conflicts existing strictly for the reason of issuing fat resupply contracts to our military-industrial complex is wrong.
7
I'm sad to say that I'm one of the few people who were against going to war in Afghanistan. If we had to feel vindicated,we could have dropped a few big bombs and came home! What have we gained in the sixteen years? Hundreds of thousands of lives lost or ruined. A country dependent on US dollars, war profiteering making companies and individuals millionaires are only a few. It was American arrogance and our myth of exceptionalism that made us think we could win where others have failed. I have read James Michener's Afghanistan three different times stating in 1962. With notes written in the margins. Nothing has changed. Time to declare 'victory ' and come home. Enough already!
5
We didn't start it, but as long as there is evil in the world, we must defend our families and country. We chose few of the wars in which the U.S. has participated - the wars chose us, and we entered reluctantly. But as the good team, with the greatest resources and technology, to us this has fallen, in addition to being the natural targets of jealousy and mistrust. Does anyone actually believe we want to be in Afghanistan? We are there because we must. Real people, with hatred and ignorance in their hearts and minds, want us dead. The choice is to defend or die. No one wants peace more than my wife and I, yet no one is more proud of having two of our children involved in defending what's right. Thank you to the Hoke and Delemarre families for your sacrifice. While the reasons may not be concrete, your sons, fathers, husbands, brothers, did not die for nothing. Ignore the know-nothing peaceniks who live in a world of fantasy and utopian ignorance. Realty is where your heroes lived and gave their all. Thank you.
4
What is the point of revealing the identities of these two brave men?
C.I.A., Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force or indeed any of the other US Government Agencies who have sent people into harm's way in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, any death is doubly tragic. Once because of the loss of a human being and the heartbreak it causes for family and friends, but, too, because of the pointlessness. The USA sends people to faraway places without ever having articulate a purpose, an endgame, a worthwhile objective it wants to see achieved.
What is the USA aiming for in Afghanistan? In Iraq or Syria? No-one knows. Unless it is to empower and enrich the military-industrial complex yet more. And with the President you have unleashed on the world, that is actually a good bet.
C.I.A., Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force or indeed any of the other US Government Agencies who have sent people into harm's way in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere, any death is doubly tragic. Once because of the loss of a human being and the heartbreak it causes for family and friends, but, too, because of the pointlessness. The USA sends people to faraway places without ever having articulate a purpose, an endgame, a worthwhile objective it wants to see achieved.
What is the USA aiming for in Afghanistan? In Iraq or Syria? No-one knows. Unless it is to empower and enrich the military-industrial complex yet more. And with the President you have unleashed on the world, that is actually a good bet.
4
The CIA is often vilified and exalted, depending on the year, the conflict, or the political perspective. These same men and women put their lives on the line for us. We rarely if ever never about their sacrifices, even after their deaths. These are heroes.
26
You really need to read a few articles by Andrew Bacevich, a retired veteran and professor at B.U. He routinely rails against this "hero worship" while we continue sending our young into harm's way in senseless wars and conflicts.
1
Put their lives on the line for us? Hardly.
It appears military type interventions have made us less safe, not more safe, since 9-11.
They aren't fighting for me and don't represent me.
It appears military type interventions have made us less safe, not more safe, since 9-11.
They aren't fighting for me and don't represent me.
3
Very sad. They and their families should get equivalent benefits while they are serving if they are wounded, and further, if they are killed.
Tough Policy Trump with the bone spur in his foot, should send his sons Donald Jr. and Eric, to show the us his family agrees with his policies, and putting their skin in the game.
Tough Policy Trump with the bone spur in his foot, should send his sons Donald Jr. and Eric, to show the us his family agrees with his policies, and putting their skin in the game.
19
There is no reason we should be in Afghanistan after 16 years and having destroyed those who attacked us or protected the attackers many years ago. We accomplished all our initial military objectives in Afghanistan fairly quickly, now leave immediately.
16
The ranks of C.I.A. operatives aren’t easily replaced, said Mr. Stiles, the former counterterrorism analyst.
******
What if they gave a (secret) war and nobody came?
******
What if they gave a (secret) war and nobody came?
16
This is exactly what Bin Laden and his band of murderers wanted.
Sucker the gullible, chicken hawks and profiteers into protracted battles and bankrupt America. Not to mention the senseless deaths of Americans and local tribes people.
This country will never learn.
Sucker the gullible, chicken hawks and profiteers into protracted battles and bankrupt America. Not to mention the senseless deaths of Americans and local tribes people.
This country will never learn.
41
What ObL wanted want to get US boots off the ground in Saudi Arabia. The rest is CIA disinformation.
1
Sorry mate, Bin Laden whilst in the Sudan, then Afghanistan wanted to precisely bleed our government coffers dry.
Saudi Arabia boots off the ground is old news.
He has succeeded.
Enough with the CIA disinformation conspiracy theories.
The CIA created him and this country will never learn.
Saudi Arabia boots off the ground is old news.
He has succeeded.
Enough with the CIA disinformation conspiracy theories.
The CIA created him and this country will never learn.
3
Semper Fidelis gents.
9
We saw how much respect Trump has for fallen C.I.A. personnel when he cracked jokes and brought his own cheering squad to the Memorial Wall.
38
Respect and honor our warriors. They don't make policy but put themselves in harm's way in part for us. Salud, and thank you.
But it's right to ask in the larger picture whether our battles and overseas adventures are often driven enough by true national interest rather than by powerful commercial interests. The blurring of the boundary between the two is a long-practiced art form, and many will reflexively question whether there is any difference. (After all, "it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair. And few question their role as Marine Gen. Smedley Butler did in assessing his military forces' work in the Americas as "gangsters for capitalism.")
And some cloak "our" economic adventures in condescending and arrogant ethnic- and religion-soaked iterations of manifest destiny, a la John Foster Dulles. The specious presumption of the (Christian) white man's burden, and all that. Think those motives don't exist today? Guess again.
So much culture clash and civil strife still seem to arise out of the drive for, and control of, fossil fuel resources. Witness Syria, where a geopolitical competition over natural gas pipeline routes is a powerful catalyst driving the various civil factions who act as tragic proxies for global struggle. Why do you think the US, Russia, the Saudis and Iran are so keen to be involved? It's not all sectarian strife, by any means...
But it's right to ask in the larger picture whether our battles and overseas adventures are often driven enough by true national interest rather than by powerful commercial interests. The blurring of the boundary between the two is a long-practiced art form, and many will reflexively question whether there is any difference. (After all, "it is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it." - Upton Sinclair. And few question their role as Marine Gen. Smedley Butler did in assessing his military forces' work in the Americas as "gangsters for capitalism.")
And some cloak "our" economic adventures in condescending and arrogant ethnic- and religion-soaked iterations of manifest destiny, a la John Foster Dulles. The specious presumption of the (Christian) white man's burden, and all that. Think those motives don't exist today? Guess again.
So much culture clash and civil strife still seem to arise out of the drive for, and control of, fossil fuel resources. Witness Syria, where a geopolitical competition over natural gas pipeline routes is a powerful catalyst driving the various civil factions who act as tragic proxies for global struggle. Why do you think the US, Russia, the Saudis and Iran are so keen to be involved? It's not all sectarian strife, by any means...
27
I'll tell you why.
The MAJORITY of "Syrians" are Suni.
The clan that runs the political / military complex of Syria is Alawite (a Shi'ia offshoot)
Iran is overwhelmingly Shi'ia and have long sought hegemony in the area, with delusions of the Persian empire(s) of the past.
Russia has a naval air base in Syria, given to them by their cold-war ally, Hafez Al Assad. That gives them a presence outside the Black Sea.
The MAJORITY of "Syrians" are Suni.
The clan that runs the political / military complex of Syria is Alawite (a Shi'ia offshoot)
Iran is overwhelmingly Shi'ia and have long sought hegemony in the area, with delusions of the Persian empire(s) of the past.
Russia has a naval air base in Syria, given to them by their cold-war ally, Hafez Al Assad. That gives them a presence outside the Black Sea.
1
Why do Americans have to die in "secret wars"? There should be nothing "secret" about war, except on the battlefield movements and positions. Members of the CIA should not have to die incognito: they deserve better. Wars should not be held "in secret". Our Constitution outlines a course for engaging in war and it has never been "secret". If our country is going to wage war, it should not be a secret war...........
22
These are, for the most part, ex-military who agree to work for the CIA, surrender their passport and assume different identity. The "get paid" in six months, but, of course, they "could" die within that time, or they could be killed by the CIA. How do I know? I know a Viet-Nam veteran who told me he was once approached and offered to go fight in, of all places, Angola.
2
These tragedies are symbolic of the greater tragedy that the US superpower has been and is still colonising the undeveloped nations around the world under the pretense of terrorism and "spreading democracy" when the sole goal behind every gunshot is to force our corporations into the lives of those who don't drink coke or do happen to possess land from which we need to extract natural resources.
The US garrisons troops in some 150 nations around the world. Does anyone ever ask why?
Fact: the US is 5% of the world's population, and they are the target consumers for US corporations. These people have also been the employees of US corporations -- we call it offshoring jobs. Why would GE want to bring good things to life for just Americans, when 95% of the profit from that "do no evil" moniker Google proclaims would be so well received at the end of a barrel?
When Burger King and McDonalds say "You can have it your way, you deserve a break today," they're talking over our heads in the US to those the CIA special operations teams are softening up abroad.
So yeah, I'm very sorry these men died in the service of fighting for America, particularly because of the "hamburger" lies that they were told: "You better catch them before they catch us, you got to catch them to save them." The only reason we're fighting in the Middle East is because we want to extract their natural resources, hire those people we occupied to add value to it all, and then sell it back to them at a profit.
The US garrisons troops in some 150 nations around the world. Does anyone ever ask why?
Fact: the US is 5% of the world's population, and they are the target consumers for US corporations. These people have also been the employees of US corporations -- we call it offshoring jobs. Why would GE want to bring good things to life for just Americans, when 95% of the profit from that "do no evil" moniker Google proclaims would be so well received at the end of a barrel?
When Burger King and McDonalds say "You can have it your way, you deserve a break today," they're talking over our heads in the US to those the CIA special operations teams are softening up abroad.
So yeah, I'm very sorry these men died in the service of fighting for America, particularly because of the "hamburger" lies that they were told: "You better catch them before they catch us, you got to catch them to save them." The only reason we're fighting in the Middle East is because we want to extract their natural resources, hire those people we occupied to add value to it all, and then sell it back to them at a profit.
17
Tragic losses...like the other nearly 2500 men and women KIA's in Afghanistan is a horrific loss to their families and brethren. Having worked contract in Afghanistan 2003-4 during what was a reasonably quiet period (US KIA 56; total in country military at 8500) with territorial over watch Khost to Gardez.
How we even then and now allowed to reduced our presence to just relatively small teams allowing the bad guys most often to extend their combat power in terms of numbers to overwhelm us..in the short term. That said, CAS and other assets allowed recovery..but, how is it that this story of tragic losses allowed the bad guys to almost be one on one with our people...after 16 years of combat experience in Afghanistan. I just do not understand the tactical approach where we lost two operators in the same operation. Haven't we learned the tactical approach after so many mission in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I suspect the depleted numbers of military and others in Afghanistan has impact the combat power of our people.
And lastly, to the families...we shall not forget about their sacrifices..
How we even then and now allowed to reduced our presence to just relatively small teams allowing the bad guys most often to extend their combat power in terms of numbers to overwhelm us..in the short term. That said, CAS and other assets allowed recovery..but, how is it that this story of tragic losses allowed the bad guys to almost be one on one with our people...after 16 years of combat experience in Afghanistan. I just do not understand the tactical approach where we lost two operators in the same operation. Haven't we learned the tactical approach after so many mission in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I suspect the depleted numbers of military and others in Afghanistan has impact the combat power of our people.
And lastly, to the families...we shall not forget about their sacrifices..
1
Fatigue RH and a previous administration who neutered our men with ridiculous rules of engagement.
Also, these teams are small. Even the best trained and equipped teams can only hold out so long against overwhelming numbers of enemy. Finally, just bad luck. It seems Mr. Hoke came around a corner and the bad guy beat him to the trigger. It happens to the best. Who knows if he took the other guy with him, but it doesn't matter. That fact that his radio operator was the only one in position to attempt a rescue says a lot.
RIP Warrior
Also, these teams are small. Even the best trained and equipped teams can only hold out so long against overwhelming numbers of enemy. Finally, just bad luck. It seems Mr. Hoke came around a corner and the bad guy beat him to the trigger. It happens to the best. Who knows if he took the other guy with him, but it doesn't matter. That fact that his radio operator was the only one in position to attempt a rescue says a lot.
RIP Warrior
1
The number of C.I.A. deaths in Afghanistan rivals those killed in the Southeast Asia conflicts of nearly a half-century ago.
And how did that work out for us?
And how did that work out for us?
12
All we are doing there is getting good people killed and making money for the industrial military complex and bankrupting our country.
108
True and we would do well to review the Soviet Union's experience in Afghanistan. Why can't the world's "superpowers" leave this country alone? While I do mourn the lives of these extraordinary gentlemen, I cannot help but wish they could have been sent on a different mission, one that did not end their lives so prematurely.
2
The military is merely the enforcement arm of the Banking cabal. The only wars
worth fighting for were the Revolutionary War, WWII in the Pacific. Then Korea and Vietnam IF they had been prosecuted correctly. They weren't so EVEN they
don't count.
worth fighting for were the Revolutionary War, WWII in the Pacific. Then Korea and Vietnam IF they had been prosecuted correctly. They weren't so EVEN they
don't count.
It is no accident that Permawar and total 24x7 surveillance of citizens are primary features of Orwell's 1984. Are the American people really going to allow the military and CIA to continue fighting this war for 20-30 more years? It is insane.
83
Just another reason why the people on the line at CIA have an intense hatred for Traitor Trump.
First he rails against the intelligence community, then he shows up at Langley, stands in front of the CIA Memorial Wall and talks about himself and how great he is, then he installs Pompeo (another Kansas nut job) who knows nothing about intelligence as the Director, and who is primarily focused on derailing the Mueller Investigation.
First he rails against the intelligence community, then he shows up at Langley, stands in front of the CIA Memorial Wall and talks about himself and how great he is, then he installs Pompeo (another Kansas nut job) who knows nothing about intelligence as the Director, and who is primarily focused on derailing the Mueller Investigation.
93
I don't think you're giving enough of the credit for this deadly fiasco to Obama, Hillary and the worst president ever, W.
10
"W" can breathe easy. The place of "worst ever president" is now solid and secure in Trump's little hands.
7
These incredible people should not be wasting their talents in such places. Their expertise only leads to destabilization, which is exactly what the Taliban and ISIS need to thrive. We never learn. You would have thought that Vietnam would have made an impact on the minds of the leaders who send our boys to strange places, not realizing, I guess, that there will be death. Or not being able to fathom the awfulness of it. Now that we have a president without the necessary requirements for empathy, the ability to learn, or even read, it's really hard to see our talented people used as cannon fodder. Save them for a war that may never come, or if it does, is really about protecting the homeland.
20
Of just go right the Russians or China and get it over with.
“War must be, while we defend our lives against a destroyer who would devour all; but I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”
J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
It is worth mentioning that the ancient Roman monarchy was overthrown in the year 509 BC. This was 60 years after the Phoenician Empire ended under the invasion of Persian King Cyrus. The event has a similar feel and taste as the revolutions and wars which overthrew other monarchies in Europe centuries later, and represented the transition point for the world adversarial force. Though the planning and staging of the transference happened even before the end of the Phoenician Empire, as such strategies and actions require years of legal and economic implementation coordinated with cultural infiltration, before the full results are realized. It should not go without notice either that after the Roman monarchy was replaced the new rulers enacted vast liberal reforms, expanded its military forces, and gained control of the Roman treasury. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
Sincerely,
Rick Danger, MD
J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
It is worth mentioning that the ancient Roman monarchy was overthrown in the year 509 BC. This was 60 years after the Phoenician Empire ended under the invasion of Persian King Cyrus. The event has a similar feel and taste as the revolutions and wars which overthrew other monarchies in Europe centuries later, and represented the transition point for the world adversarial force. Though the planning and staging of the transference happened even before the end of the Phoenician Empire, as such strategies and actions require years of legal and economic implementation coordinated with cultural infiltration, before the full results are realized. It should not go without notice either that after the Roman monarchy was replaced the new rulers enacted vast liberal reforms, expanded its military forces, and gained control of the Roman treasury. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
Sincerely,
Rick Danger, MD
3
The truly invisible warriors, known only in death. Yes, they will be hard to replace. Deepest sympathy to the families whose support made their service possible. It seems almost surreal to have CIA employees dying in situations that would normally involve regular military. The US seems committed to risking and losing the elite among our warriors, with ever fewer in the civilian population ready and able to step forward and serve in their place. Getting out of a war is obviously much harder than getting in, leaving successive presidents to deal with their predecessors' actions. I hope our military survives these multiple wars without taking on yet another one because our current president undervalues diplomacy. As does his secretary of state. Neither man has either served or lost family members to war, or they might take more care with the lives affected by their words.
30
Good luck getting Mr. Trump to care about anyone's skin but his own.
1
Last month, I was at Omaha Beach and the American cemetery nearby. As I thought about those young men--and now these heroes--I felt angry and tearful at how Mr. Trump is desecrating the democracy they died for.
20
Secret wars, secret interventions, secret attempts to destabilize governments using bright and shiny NGOs that don't realize they are being manipulted in targeted nations. All practically boasted about after the fact. All denied strenuously - naturally - while ongoing. And it's ongoing often and around the world. Any wonder no one believes what the US says?
12
We need to also honor the thousands of Americans who work as covert intelligence contractors to the CIA. Their ranks have swollen because the CIA has turned into a para-military organization and not a spy agency. These contractors perform deep cover work on convert assignments. They work without benefits, or recognition. We need to honor them. Many times they have a "day job" that the Agency has found a way to exploit but they die and bleed like the people you write about. There are no stars for them. No articles about them. They die for their country and are forgotten.
10
Why does America commit endless war? Because our country has based it's entire economy on the defense industry and it's perpetuation.
This will not change until a president comes along and designs the economy on a peace oriented industry. End of story!
This will not change until a president comes along and designs the economy on a peace oriented industry. End of story!
29
God rest them and watch out for their families. I think secret wars are wrong. I think secret funds are wrong. I think all the black ops that go on without the citizen's knowledge or consent are wrong. But many of those who serve in this way believe passionately that they are serving their country. I think they are wrong. Secrets and lies make us less safe not more. But they are heroes none the less.
8
Can we please leave this miserable place, the world's top purveyor of heroin? We have no business there. I personally do not care about who runs that country. All I want is for US to resolve to get along with whoever comes out on top.
That entire miserable country is not worth the life or limbs of even one more American kid.
That entire miserable country is not worth the life or limbs of even one more American kid.
92
There are rare earth minerals up on the Northern border; those minerals are being mined by China. China is also extracting oil and natural gas. Our troops protect those pipelines. What a deal!
American Exceptionalism: exceptionally ill-conceived, exceptionally expensive, and exceptionally ineffective.
49
Terrible painful
2
Politics of their loss aside, these men died in service to our country and left behind wives and children that will need support.
https://ciamemorialfoundation.org/
https://ciamemorialfoundation.org/
13
We are in a difficult historical dilemma for our democracy. We have a tragedy perpetrated by terrorists who were ignored for too long. 9/11 began in the middle east. Now in order to prevent another incident of such magnitude we have to sustain a global industry of spying and fighting and dying. To say this is all a waste is to forget 9/11 and what should have prevented it.
6
May they rest in peace. One way to avoid further CIA and troop deaths is to negotiate an armistice between the Afghan government, tribal leaders, and the Taliban. Anyone working on that still?
7
Amazing article about true warriors. Would not even know what these men are
made of. Imagine waking up everyday and putting their lives on the line every
second. There really are incredible people on this earth.
made of. Imagine waking up everyday and putting their lives on the line every
second. There really are incredible people on this earth.
2
These are incredible men, patriots who don't seek recognition - in fact they avoid it - yet commit themselves to whatever dangerous tasks their country asks of them. Their deaths are a great loss for their families and their country.
That said, it's hard not to feel they died perpetuating a pointless, unwinnable war, which has no end in sight. Their wives are widows, their children fatherless, and for what?
Do we have any more idea now what we're doing in Afghanistan, what our goals are, and how to achieve them than we did in 2001? Anyone who says yes is lying. How many more good men and women will die in this endless war?
That said, it's hard not to feel they died perpetuating a pointless, unwinnable war, which has no end in sight. Their wives are widows, their children fatherless, and for what?
Do we have any more idea now what we're doing in Afghanistan, what our goals are, and how to achieve them than we did in 2001? Anyone who says yes is lying. How many more good men and women will die in this endless war?
58
God Bless all these men in their efforts to keep the rest of us safe. May they rest in peace.
6
Just as we always tell these stories to ourselves about the great and heroic qualities of our warriors, how they died valiently in battle after long careers of protecting the homeland, those on the other side, the enemy, is tellling the same stories to their people, how they courageously defended their home against the onslaught of a violent and dastardly opponent. Us.
23
The continued warfare and waste of American lives fuels a corrupt global military industrial complex benefiting a handful.
57
The CIA is responsible for many of the problems in the Middle East. We could have had an ally in Iran if the CIA had not engineered the overthrow of a man elected by democratic vote and replaced him with the fake Shah in 1952. Now look...
49
You have displayed the entire problem in your post. "White people" think they have a right to solve our problems, which most of the time they create. This is the hang over from manifest destiny. Look at history: UN creates problem in Palestine, US creates problem in Iraq, US funds rebels in Syria, US trained Bin Laden, US installed corrupt dictator (shah) in Iran and then they spend billions and American lives cleaning up the mess.
Last time I checked, the USA has a good share of its own problems. Al Qaeda is long gone from Afghanistan. This is an army of plunder plain and simple.
Last time I checked, the USA has a good share of its own problems. Al Qaeda is long gone from Afghanistan. This is an army of plunder plain and simple.
6
I had the pleasure of attending college decades ago with a woman (Iranian) whose father was a close friend and confidante of the Shah. The stories she told me of him were horrifying. He was an evil, evil man.
4
" . . a war that is going to last for another 20 or 30 years or longer.”
To what end? So the military-industrial complex can make trillions of profits?
Which raises the question, who is the CIA actually serving -- we American citizens, or the defense contractors and assorted other members of the MIC?
To what end? So the military-industrial complex can make trillions of profits?
Which raises the question, who is the CIA actually serving -- we American citizens, or the defense contractors and assorted other members of the MIC?
40
What a waste. All for nothing. We are so deluded by our fantasies. Our entire country is held hostage by our Military. We spend all of our money, we are obsessed, our movies, our culture, our entire society obsessed and driven by warfare. We have been engaged in warfare for our entire history. This country was born with war, and it will die with war. I wish we could've learned the lesson without losing the lives. But, we simply chose not to.
Since the United States was founded in 1776, she has been at war during 214 out of her 235 calendar years of existence. In other words, there were only 21 calendar years in which the U.S. did not wage any wars.
To put this in perspective:
* Pick any year since 1776 and there is about a 91% chance that America was involved in some war during that calendar year.
* No U.S. president truly qualifies as a peacetime president. Instead, all U.S. presidents can technically be considered “war presidents.”
* The U.S. has never gone a decade without war.
* The only time the U.S. went five years without war (1935-40) was during the isolationist period of the Great Depression.
Since the United States was founded in 1776, she has been at war during 214 out of her 235 calendar years of existence. In other words, there were only 21 calendar years in which the U.S. did not wage any wars.
To put this in perspective:
* Pick any year since 1776 and there is about a 91% chance that America was involved in some war during that calendar year.
* No U.S. president truly qualifies as a peacetime president. Instead, all U.S. presidents can technically be considered “war presidents.”
* The U.S. has never gone a decade without war.
* The only time the U.S. went five years without war (1935-40) was during the isolationist period of the Great Depression.
116
Not sure what your point is - regarding this article - leave Afghanistan?
You're OK with the Taliban/ISIS taking over the country and using it to stage terrorist attacks while destroying its peoples?
We could leave tomorrow and many folks - maybe including you - would insist we go back in to protect ourselves and the locals within five years.
You're OK with the Taliban/ISIS taking over the country and using it to stage terrorist attacks while destroying its peoples?
We could leave tomorrow and many folks - maybe including you - would insist we go back in to protect ourselves and the locals within five years.
3
I'll say. We needed to and had the right to kill bin Laden. But almost every life lost in Afghanistan has been a life thrown away on the trash heap of history. We Americans certainly love to throw our children's lives away!
5
No, Steve, not at all. The British Empire couldn't stabilize it. The Soviet Empire couldn't conquer it, and the ten year invasion contributed mightily to its fall, maybe more than anything we did. Now, failure to exert control after sixteen long years? Nope, time to go. It was never a place to stage terrorist attacks from. It was safe haven for Osama bin Laden, period. Nobody stages anything from those god forsaken mountains, Steve.
You make the frequent government mistake of learning how to fight the last war.
You make the frequent government mistake of learning how to fight the last war.
1
Mr. Stiles foresees Americans still fighting and dying in Afghanistan in 2047, 30 years from now. How is such a thing possible? Those of us who were alive on 9/11 will be elderly men and women and the fighting will be done only by those who have no living memory of the event that started the war.
65
Reminds me of the opening lines to a Procol Harum song:
This war we are waging is already lost
The cause for the fighting has long been a ghost
Malice and habit have now won the day
The honours we fought for are lost in the fray
This war we are waging is already lost
The cause for the fighting has long been a ghost
Malice and habit have now won the day
The honours we fought for are lost in the fray
14
No one would chose this. Yet it is reality. If you had a deranged aunt with murderous intent, would you stand by and do nothing, or would you control her and attempt to get help? Sometimes force is required even when not desired. We still occupy Germany and Japan today, more than 60 years after WWII - because it is in our interest and that of the world for us to maintain permanent bases on the territory of those who attacked us and our allies, and were therefore necessarily vanquished. No one wants to be the world's cop - but in the absence of alternatives, thankfully we are able to do so - not perfectly, but better than leaving the vacuum and allowing 9/11 and similar events to prevail. The world isn't an easy place and religion incites and promotes evil. Until we can eradicate the promoters of terrorism, we have no choice but to overtly and covertly deal with them. Yes, that's a long-term responsibility, and an unfair burden. But what's the alternative? I certainly hope that we are still supervising peace in Afghanistan in 2047, and far beyond.
1
Dave, we occupy the Korean Demilitarized Zone's environs.
It is willfully misleading to characterize our presence in Japan and Germany as an "occupation." We demilitarized Japan and stepped in to provide for its defense. Same with Germany. And those countries are critical from a strategic standpoint.
And, ironically, the leader of the free world is now a German woman.
It is willfully misleading to characterize our presence in Japan and Germany as an "occupation." We demilitarized Japan and stepped in to provide for its defense. Same with Germany. And those countries are critical from a strategic standpoint.
And, ironically, the leader of the free world is now a German woman.
1
Hand Salute!