One way to think about the Confederate statues is to consider what Germany would be today if it had been allowed to erect statues of Hitler and other Nazis after World War II. Would Germans have accepted the evils of Naziism if their public spaces were filled with statues glorifying the perpetrators of death camps? I doubt it. It's obvious from the statues that now dot much of the South that the Civil War is still being fought, that the assumption of white supremacy still governs the minds of millions of Americans. On the other hand, it's impossible to erase history, because people who are able to mythologize the Lost Cause will never accept defeat until they're confronted over the great evil that was slavery. All of us need to accept that an economy built on brutalizing black bodies was morally wrong. The conversations we're having as a nation over these statues may be a necessary purge.
Lest anyone think that anyone can forget the long term legacies of slavery and discrimination in this country, here are some statistics about the lives of African Americans in the US today, 150 years after the emancipation of black slaves and a half century after the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964:
Blacks on average live 5-8 years less than whites. They are at least 10% more likely to contract a serious disease than whites. Their kids are twice as likely to die in infancy or in childhood than white kids.
African American teens are 10% less likely to finish high school, 2/3 less likely to enroll in college, and 1/4 as likely to graduate from college than their white counterparts.
Whites earn on average twice as much as blacks. College educated blacks earn little more than white high school dropouts. White families average 10-20 times greater net worth.
These disparities have remained constant, or the gaps have gotten larger since 1945. There are many explanations offered for the persistence of such disparity, but the mere fact of such persistence suggests racism, and the legacies of slavery, Jim Crow and discrimination, play a large role.
Perhaps we should be working on these issues rather than arguing about monuments.
Blacks on average live 5-8 years less than whites. They are at least 10% more likely to contract a serious disease than whites. Their kids are twice as likely to die in infancy or in childhood than white kids.
African American teens are 10% less likely to finish high school, 2/3 less likely to enroll in college, and 1/4 as likely to graduate from college than their white counterparts.
Whites earn on average twice as much as blacks. College educated blacks earn little more than white high school dropouts. White families average 10-20 times greater net worth.
These disparities have remained constant, or the gaps have gotten larger since 1945. There are many explanations offered for the persistence of such disparity, but the mere fact of such persistence suggests racism, and the legacies of slavery, Jim Crow and discrimination, play a large role.
Perhaps we should be working on these issues rather than arguing about monuments.
6
Where are the North's monuments to it's immigrant soldiers ... who have been carefully written out of the Civil War story by Nativist historians like James McPherson ... who had the audacity to call immigrants skulkers ... even though immigrants won a quarter of the war's 1500 Medals of Honors.
The iconic immigrant soldier is Edward Paul Doherty. Doherty was born in Canada to immigrants from Sligo, Ireland. He volunteered for the New York militia when the war broke out and was captured at Bull Run. He escaped and re-enlisted in Corcoran's Legion at New York. He was promoted to lieutenant in the 16th New York Cavalry and led that unit when it hunted down and killed John Wilkes Booth. His funeral was held at St. Charles Borromeo Church in Harlem and he is buried at Arlington National Cemetery.
Where is his statue and why do we tolerate 19th century Nativism in our history departments when we protest so loudly about it in our government.
The iconic immigrant soldier is Edward Paul Doherty. Doherty was born in Canada to immigrants from Sligo, Ireland. He volunteered for the New York militia when the war broke out and was captured at Bull Run. He escaped and re-enlisted in Corcoran's Legion at New York. He was promoted to lieutenant in the 16th New York Cavalry and led that unit when it hunted down and killed John Wilkes Booth. His funeral was held at St. Charles Borromeo Church in Harlem and he is buried at Arlington National Cemetery.
Where is his statue and why do we tolerate 19th century Nativism in our history departments when we protest so loudly about it in our government.
What's the difference between liberals who want to tear down Confederate statues and Henry VIII who destroyed Catholic images or the Taliban and ISIS which destroy anything that doesn't meets their standards of purity?
2
Should books written by Jefferson Davis and other rebels be taken out of libraries and burned?
1
The South had nothing in common with the North. Except race. A very low common denominator. The lowest.
The sections' disparate economies, the North's love of the United States of America, the South's antipathy toward the US, these two had nothing in common.
Once the losers lost, the needle and thread was a common hatred based on race, which is pretty thin thread, indeed.
The statues exalted: Slavery, Treason and Losing. Why glorify such negatives?
The sections' disparate economies, the North's love of the United States of America, the South's antipathy toward the US, these two had nothing in common.
Once the losers lost, the needle and thread was a common hatred based on race, which is pretty thin thread, indeed.
The statues exalted: Slavery, Treason and Losing. Why glorify such negatives?
1
We have a saying here in the South which Northern left-wing journalists and opinion writers need to consider each time they write their holier than op-eds about us: “American by birth, Southern by the grace of God.” A saying that I will follow up with Lynyrd Skynyrd’s retort to Neil Young regarding his song “Southern Man”: “A Southern man don’t need you around anyhow.”
3
If, as some defenders of the statues of Lee and other heroes of the confederacy have stated, that they are truly there to represent a moment in history, shouldn't there be just as many bronze statues of brutalized black slaves? If we really want to be truly historically accurate, we would need to have statues that represent the rape, torture and murder of black slaves in every bucolic park across the South. Oh wait, that's part of Civil War history that we'd rather not memorialize. Maybe because it would be to terrible for us to look at.
4
We live in the internet age, where nearly infinite knowledge about the horrors of slavery and the atrocities of the civil war is readily available via a simple search through Google. With this endless access to our nation’s past, the disgraceful time in American history of the Civil War cannot be forgotten. Because the internet ensures that the horrors of the Civil War will never truly be erased, taking down statues of Confederate war leaders doesn’t hide the history of the civil war; however, their removal does rebel against the false praise the men these statues represent have gotten through the revitalized history of this disgraceful period of American society.
These statues are representations of the false idea that the civil war was fought for an idealogical notion of ‘Southern Pride’ or for the rights of states independence, and this viewpoint completely overlooks the fact that the core ideas behind the Confederate army’s fighting were directly rooted foremost in a fight to uphold the unjustifiable and inhumane practice of slavery. These statues stand for the deplorably racist and bigoted notions of this era, notions which still corrupt this country today, and leaving them up helps reinforce society’s ignorance towards these unjust prejudices. The Civil War will never be forgotten, but with the removal of symbols venerating it’s darkest sides the idea that the South’s role in this war stood for anything other than blatant and appalling racism may one day be erased.
These statues are representations of the false idea that the civil war was fought for an idealogical notion of ‘Southern Pride’ or for the rights of states independence, and this viewpoint completely overlooks the fact that the core ideas behind the Confederate army’s fighting were directly rooted foremost in a fight to uphold the unjustifiable and inhumane practice of slavery. These statues stand for the deplorably racist and bigoted notions of this era, notions which still corrupt this country today, and leaving them up helps reinforce society’s ignorance towards these unjust prejudices. The Civil War will never be forgotten, but with the removal of symbols venerating it’s darkest sides the idea that the South’s role in this war stood for anything other than blatant and appalling racism may one day be erased.
1
It's difficult to separate this controversy over the past from the divisiveness of our current politics. Unfortunately this taints the overt politicization of our moral indignation, both the legitimate and contrived.
1
Confederate memorabilia, symbolizing hate, prejudice, and the darkness of American “heritage,” would indeed be far more useful kept in a museum rather than the center of a southern community. These statues are not serving a “never again” purpose but rather one proud of a morally inexcusable history. Racism still thrives today because white children are too often taught from a young age that the confederacy was an honorable cause. These statues have stayed up as long as they have because they remind white southerners of the “good old days.” Imagine being a black citizen, a black tax paying citizen, and seeing your dollars go towards the maintenance of a confederate memorial. Germany does not have statues or memorials painting Nazis in an honorable light, nor would they ever dream of having such a thing, so why are we so reluctant to remove these symbols of hatred? Long story short- take the statues down, build in their place a memorial to the slaves whose lives were stolen from them. Teach children that figures like Jefferson Davis and Robert E. Lee were not rebels fighting for freedom but cowards who could not fathom the idea of success without the exploitation of an entire race of people. The topic is uncomfortable but continuing to ignore the wounds slavery caused in our history will only make them grow deeper and more harmful to future generations. It is time for our country to heal, and the first step to recovery is admitting we have a problem.
1
If you are ever in Germany visit Documentation Center Nazi Party Rally Grounds in Nuremberg.Still today, the gigantic remains of buildings in the southern districts of Nuremberg are a reminder of the megalomania of the National Socialist regime. Across eleven square kilometers, a monumental backdrop was to be created for the self-staging of the Nazi Party.Today the unfinished Congress Hall, designed to hold 50,000 people, houses the Documentation Center Nazi Party Rally Grounds. A stake fashioned from steel and glass, it provides a striking contemporary architectural counterpoint. Covering 13,000 square meters, the permanent exhibition "Fascination and Terror" looks at the causes, the context and the consequences of the National Socialist regime of terror. Its emphasis is on the history of the party rallies, gigantic mass events used by Nazi propaganda for a stage production of the "Volksgemeinschaft", the people’s community. Modern media, such as computer animation, films and touch screens, but also photographs and documents are used to illustrate the buildings on the rally grounds, as well as the history and the background of the party rallies. Audio guides provide texts and commentary in seven languages.The exhibition is supplemented by an educational program and special exhibitions. At 23 locations all over the former party rally grounds, panels in German and English provide information about the history of the site. Much better than a Hitler statue.
1
Honestly if you're not from Charlottesville it's not your business. The black community in Charlottesville are the only ones who should have a say on this matter. The rest of you go worry about your community and stop using ours to play out some perverse political drama.
1
Confederate statues were erected to celebrate white supremacy & African American oppression.
1
I am fine with taking them all down. After all they were a bunch of racist Democrats and opposed to the abolishment of slavery by the Republican government setup by Abraham Lincoln.
1
Erecting statues to romanticized Confederate “heroes” follows a tradition of Southerners turning a blind eye to widespread criminality and inhumanity hiding in plain sight.
At the end of slavery there were thousands of so-called mulattoes, quadroons, etc., on the plantations and almost without exception they were offsprings of slaveholders and enslaved black women. Given the power disparity of those relationships, the offsprings were products of rape! Moreover, interracial sexual relations—much like waging war against the United States of America—were “unthinkable” and punishable by death in many cases.
Most of these Southern “heroes” were slaveholders and West Point graduates. Probably all of them publicly, at least, professed that “race mingling” was an abomination and, before the Civil War, considered that waging war against the United States of America was treason.
Interesting how these high crimes against their OWN laws and customs were tossed aside when they satisfied their cruel selfish desires. We won’t even visit slavery which was a 250-year high crime against humanity because it didn’t violate their evil laws and customs.
At the end of slavery there were thousands of so-called mulattoes, quadroons, etc., on the plantations and almost without exception they were offsprings of slaveholders and enslaved black women. Given the power disparity of those relationships, the offsprings were products of rape! Moreover, interracial sexual relations—much like waging war against the United States of America—were “unthinkable” and punishable by death in many cases.
Most of these Southern “heroes” were slaveholders and West Point graduates. Probably all of them publicly, at least, professed that “race mingling” was an abomination and, before the Civil War, considered that waging war against the United States of America was treason.
Interesting how these high crimes against their OWN laws and customs were tossed aside when they satisfied their cruel selfish desires. We won’t even visit slavery which was a 250-year high crime against humanity because it didn’t violate their evil laws and customs.
1
The statues are correctly identified as what they are: Teaching Tools. The racists we should be most concerned about dealing with are the ones who are alive. These are monuments to bad ideas. Ideas that lost the battle. They need to crumble under the passage of time (Just like the ideas they represent), be chipped away, rotten, pooped on by birds, not cleaned off, whatever. Or meticulously cleaned by the people who love them. Who cares. Don't give them any power. Let the supporters set up a 24 hour watch over their statues. Maybe a middle ground of not removal, but no federal funding for care?
The issues of the Civil War are being given voice and rebirth in an alarming way.
The issues of the Civil War are being given voice and rebirth in an alarming way.
1
I agree that these confederate statues should not be destroyed, and that instead they should be placed in museums or other educational settings and be actively discussed.
Whether we like it or not, these statues are a fundamental part of our history. America spent the majority of its time since its founding mired in enslavement and racial divide, and these memorials are a constant reminder of that fact. But more than that - not only are they reminders of the history itself, they are also reminders of the struggle that took place to bring equality, justice, and freedom, values that we prize above all others in America today.
However, these values didn’t just come at no cost - they were the result of a long, bloody war, and once we start to topple the memorials to that war, no matter from which side, we begin to forget how hard-earned these American values are. Over time, I think the result will be a forgetfulness of how meaningful these values actually are to us as Americans.
That said, of course I don’t believe that these statutes should be praised or have inspiring inscriptions written under them. They should be brought into the educational realm, where students can have discussions about the meaning of values such as freedom, equality and justice in American society today, as well as how these values evolved over time. That way we can ensure continuity of tradition of freedom, and make sure that such horrible history is not repeated.
Whether we like it or not, these statues are a fundamental part of our history. America spent the majority of its time since its founding mired in enslavement and racial divide, and these memorials are a constant reminder of that fact. But more than that - not only are they reminders of the history itself, they are also reminders of the struggle that took place to bring equality, justice, and freedom, values that we prize above all others in America today.
However, these values didn’t just come at no cost - they were the result of a long, bloody war, and once we start to topple the memorials to that war, no matter from which side, we begin to forget how hard-earned these American values are. Over time, I think the result will be a forgetfulness of how meaningful these values actually are to us as Americans.
That said, of course I don’t believe that these statutes should be praised or have inspiring inscriptions written under them. They should be brought into the educational realm, where students can have discussions about the meaning of values such as freedom, equality and justice in American society today, as well as how these values evolved over time. That way we can ensure continuity of tradition of freedom, and make sure that such horrible history is not repeated.
1
A lasting impression from visiting southern states during the sesquicentennial was viewing a surplus of statues; more than once I was told the statues 'were made elsewhere and transported by sea so they would not touch northern soil'. Talk about the war really did not end ...
While peeking with binoculars at the Sailors and Soldiers monument in Richmond - near Chimborazo overlooking the James river, I was perplexed that this soldier is wearing a US buckle instead of the usual CS; a conciliatory gesture? a manufacturing defect? a joke? Should it be corrected?
While peeking with binoculars at the Sailors and Soldiers monument in Richmond - near Chimborazo overlooking the James river, I was perplexed that this soldier is wearing a US buckle instead of the usual CS; a conciliatory gesture? a manufacturing defect? a joke? Should it be corrected?
1
Dear readmuch, the Confederate Army was so desperately short of equipment that Rebel soldiers made routine use of captured Yankee gear, to include belt buckles. Often, they would wear captured "US" belt buckles upside down.
1
I share your lament and thoughts of disgrace at the "laceration and lunching of black bodies" seated into the American memory. You raise a valid point in advocating for the removal of Confederate statues considering the pain and "morally indefensible" injustice they represent. Their invasive presence on public streets is far too celebratory and insensitive to those who were and are subject to racial discrimination and abuse. I agree these statues should be relocated from public areas to museums for the sole purpose of education and debate. We must learn from history and its inherent consequences. Images and physical sculptures from the civil war promote a visceral understanding of the events that occurred.
Your article begs the question - can we really shame historical figures simply because what they stood for contradicts our our modern contemporary standards? History needs to be seen in its context and a greater understanding of the life, times and contribution of those memorialized needs to be understood and contextualised. The treatment of African Americans was irrefutably unjust, inhumane and truly devastating but in context we need to understand the timing and the reasons for the memorialisation of the figures we look to pull down. We should be concerned that out of sight should not equal out of mind - and out of reasonable debate.
Your article begs the question - can we really shame historical figures simply because what they stood for contradicts our our modern contemporary standards? History needs to be seen in its context and a greater understanding of the life, times and contribution of those memorialized needs to be understood and contextualised. The treatment of African Americans was irrefutably unjust, inhumane and truly devastating but in context we need to understand the timing and the reasons for the memorialisation of the figures we look to pull down. We should be concerned that out of sight should not equal out of mind - and out of reasonable debate.
1
All of these "offensive statues" were erected while every state and local elected official in the South was a member of the Democrat party. So who is at fault?
The only statues of individuals or groups of people on public display in the United States should be of people or groups of people who substantially advanced civilization as defined by the Constitution with all its amendments.
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington Carver, Thomas Edison, Charles Lindbergh, John D. Rockefeller, and Martin Luther King, are but a few. Many of these people lived ethically flawed personal lives, that have been exposed, but those personal failures were far outweighed by their contributions that have led to the best of our country today.
Confederate state leaders set our civilization back substantially, starting with the deaths of 750,000 men and advancing the racial hatred that we live with today. Anyone wanting to celebrate these people could never hold public office that requires swearing allegiance to the Constitution, which in my little city, includes even serving on the library board.
George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington Carver, Thomas Edison, Charles Lindbergh, John D. Rockefeller, and Martin Luther King, are but a few. Many of these people lived ethically flawed personal lives, that have been exposed, but those personal failures were far outweighed by their contributions that have led to the best of our country today.
Confederate state leaders set our civilization back substantially, starting with the deaths of 750,000 men and advancing the racial hatred that we live with today. Anyone wanting to celebrate these people could never hold public office that requires swearing allegiance to the Constitution, which in my little city, includes even serving on the library board.
1
We can "erase" history, and are indiscriminately erasing history, as we no longer teach it in grade school and therefore no one is learning it. No value is placed on history anymore. Get a STEM education and develop AI, but don't worry, all you need to know about history starts with Steve Jobs' birth (and, hey, I love my iPhone and iPod as much as anyone).
Sometimes, only sometimes, I think the neo-Nazis do us a favor in reminding us of the fact there actually was slavery in our country with a whole industry built around it--just think, slaves were once the biggest single category of personal property in the nation; and, the post-Civil War racism which led to lynchings still occurring up until only a decade and a half before my own birth (and I am not yet eligible for Medicare), not to mention the everyday manifestations of segregation which were actively in legal force a full decade after my birth.
Who or what reminds us, really, of the searing reality of slavery and its legacy? Organizations like the NAACP and Black Lives Matter don't penetrate the bubble of technology and the activities of daily living for 99% of us. Kids need to see the photographs of slaves, their treatment, and the Sunday-afternoon lynchings, from their teachers, to bring it home. This is our history.
Frankly, I don't think American's are divided on the issue of racism as much as rights of free speech, and they are different issues.
Sometimes, only sometimes, I think the neo-Nazis do us a favor in reminding us of the fact there actually was slavery in our country with a whole industry built around it--just think, slaves were once the biggest single category of personal property in the nation; and, the post-Civil War racism which led to lynchings still occurring up until only a decade and a half before my own birth (and I am not yet eligible for Medicare), not to mention the everyday manifestations of segregation which were actively in legal force a full decade after my birth.
Who or what reminds us, really, of the searing reality of slavery and its legacy? Organizations like the NAACP and Black Lives Matter don't penetrate the bubble of technology and the activities of daily living for 99% of us. Kids need to see the photographs of slaves, their treatment, and the Sunday-afternoon lynchings, from their teachers, to bring it home. This is our history.
Frankly, I don't think American's are divided on the issue of racism as much as rights of free speech, and they are different issues.
2
I guess here is where the complexity of history comes into play. What does it really mean to ask Southerners to take down their statues, to essentially disavow their made up history and heritage. We in the North allowed this to happen. We were complicit. We allowed the Klan to rise, we allowed Jim Crow, we allowed Birtherism, and we still allow de facto segregation and discrimination. I guess the question is do we upend all that by removing some statues, or just let things keep going as they are. I am not sure there is an easy answer here.
With some 1500 statues devoted to those who fought for the right for human beings to own other human beings out there, we have a numbers problem. Some may go to museums, some may be toppled and replaced by figures who supported the American ideals of freedom and justice for all, and the rest? Mr. Donald Trump should be given these. He can spray paint them gold and fill the lobbies and rooms of his souless hotels with them.
I disagree fundamentally with this article. I feel no guilt for anything that happened 50-100-150 years ago. I am not prepared to apologise for the British Empire which had both good and bad. I am not prepared to apologise for slavery which the Brits certainly supported and profited from in great measure.
As far as I understand it, the great majority of Confederate monuments were put up in the 19th century as monuments to the fallen in much the same way that there are monuments to the fallen of the two world wars and other conflicts in towns and cities all across the Western World. They fought for reasons they deemed just.
Whether they were good men or not is not for me to judge. What is clear is that I am not guilty of anything and I refuse to accept any suggestion that I am.
As far as I understand it, the great majority of Confederate monuments were put up in the 19th century as monuments to the fallen in much the same way that there are monuments to the fallen of the two world wars and other conflicts in towns and cities all across the Western World. They fought for reasons they deemed just.
Whether they were good men or not is not for me to judge. What is clear is that I am not guilty of anything and I refuse to accept any suggestion that I am.
2
I don't necessarily disagree that some statues -- the ones erected most recently to signal defiance -- should come down.
However, Cohen's phrase "The statues now being upended tell a story, after all..." subtly shows the danger of which Cohen seems unaware.
Cohen is implying that everything in the country currently that any statue is coming down, the moral case is just as obvious in all those cases. ("now being upended"). I doubt he would know this.
Why not not encourage mob action to willy-nilly tear things down in nihilistic fashion but rather have a careful, deliberative (and yes, democratic) debate on each particular statue in that particular community.
It's not even clear in the general that Cohen is right in how the majority construe the statues. A recent PBS/NPR Marist poll found 44% of blacks and 2/3 of whites/Hispanics don't want them removed.
Perhaps some of those people are not motivated by rote racism, but by a more nuanced take on history's markers of both the good and the bad.
However, Cohen's phrase "The statues now being upended tell a story, after all..." subtly shows the danger of which Cohen seems unaware.
Cohen is implying that everything in the country currently that any statue is coming down, the moral case is just as obvious in all those cases. ("now being upended"). I doubt he would know this.
Why not not encourage mob action to willy-nilly tear things down in nihilistic fashion but rather have a careful, deliberative (and yes, democratic) debate on each particular statue in that particular community.
It's not even clear in the general that Cohen is right in how the majority construe the statues. A recent PBS/NPR Marist poll found 44% of blacks and 2/3 of whites/Hispanics don't want them removed.
Perhaps some of those people are not motivated by rote racism, but by a more nuanced take on history's markers of both the good and the bad.
1
There was a campaign of terror executed against freed slaves in the decades after the Civil War. These statues are part of that campaign. Put them in museums and be done with it. We may never become a post racial society, but this would be a good step.
1
It is at best sloppy scholarship to jump from the end of the Civil War to the evils of Jim Crow , skipping over Reconstruction and its horrors. Apparently Sherman's march to the sea was an honorable and bloodles campaign. One could argue that the evils of reconstruction laid the foundation for all that followed, just as the treaty of Versailles laid the foundation for world war II. It is easier to reduce the discourse to shopworn memes and ad hominem arguments. I expect better of us. Or we could be more honest and just call each other poopyheads without any pretensions of substance.
1
I am sorry, though a northerner I think there was something different in southern culture that was worth fighting for and has nothing to do with slavery. What tiny percentage of southerners actually owned slaves.
For me the rebel flag is a state of mind that says don’t tell me what I can or can’t do; it is laced with a sense of chivalry as found in medieval tales of knights and fantasy; it is the senseless barroom brawl and swagger and Dionysian abandon – a la Toby Keith with a confederate flag suspended in the background singing about ‘my friends;’ it is the romantic notion of fidelity to ones spouse for a long lifetime. It is a belief that we will sacrifice now for our kids and future generations, what some would call patriotism, and a notion that not everything is measured in dollars and cents, it is a love of language and a belief in right and wrong, and a commitment to being judged by those standards.
Ta-Nehisi Coates never challenges the threat posed to those cultural values and whether they had merit.
We no longer believe in right and wrong -everything is relative. Sticking by your spouse for better or for worse, your choice. Our culture now promotes one night stands, pot and materialism. Venerating hard work makes you a capitalist, while lauding welfare makes you kind and generous.
I’d say its not for Cohen to tell Lee what he was fighting for. Let Lee speak for himself. He says it wasn’t about slavery but a sense of duty. I’d trust Lee over Cohen.
For me the rebel flag is a state of mind that says don’t tell me what I can or can’t do; it is laced with a sense of chivalry as found in medieval tales of knights and fantasy; it is the senseless barroom brawl and swagger and Dionysian abandon – a la Toby Keith with a confederate flag suspended in the background singing about ‘my friends;’ it is the romantic notion of fidelity to ones spouse for a long lifetime. It is a belief that we will sacrifice now for our kids and future generations, what some would call patriotism, and a notion that not everything is measured in dollars and cents, it is a love of language and a belief in right and wrong, and a commitment to being judged by those standards.
Ta-Nehisi Coates never challenges the threat posed to those cultural values and whether they had merit.
We no longer believe in right and wrong -everything is relative. Sticking by your spouse for better or for worse, your choice. Our culture now promotes one night stands, pot and materialism. Venerating hard work makes you a capitalist, while lauding welfare makes you kind and generous.
I’d say its not for Cohen to tell Lee what he was fighting for. Let Lee speak for himself. He says it wasn’t about slavery but a sense of duty. I’d trust Lee over Cohen.
3
Ben Ross, I'm a born New York Yankee who is a Civil War re-enactor who portrays both sides in different battles. If it's a battle in which the Yankees won the larger amount of glory, I play Yankee. If it's a battle in which the Rebels won the larger amount of glory, I play Rebel. So, by that logic, it's obvious that I chose to play Rebel when I participated in a reenactment of Pickett's Charge. I am able to admire the same soldierly virtues of courage and devotion to duty on both sides of a war. Thanks for your posting above. It makes the most sense of anything I've read here so far.
1
Not only should the statues come down, but anyone sympathetic towards the Confederate cause should be highly scrutinized in background checks.
They are clearly open to supporting a rebellion, not unlike ISIS or the Taliban.
if our southern rebels start to feel their oats once again, do you want them working for the TSA?
They are clearly open to supporting a rebellion, not unlike ISIS or the Taliban.
if our southern rebels start to feel their oats once again, do you want them working for the TSA?
Roger, I'm very conflicted here. First off you just don't get it. I am a combat veteran, my father is a combat veteran and so are many family members. My Dad didn't join up in '67 because he had to stop the spread of communism in southeast Asia. I didn't join because I thought we had to stop warlords in Somalia. Young men do not join the service for the ideals of the speechmakers. But that symbol does mean something after you watch someone die under it. That being said once people defending your symbol are carrying nazi flags, I think your symbol has been coopted to the the point that it is no longer defensible. I qualify and could join Sons of Confederate Veterans and even thought about doing it before. But if they are willing to march along side people carrying flags my grandfather fought against then they've destroyed any defensible argument.
3
"Slavery died; Jim Crow began. The long struggle endured for black Americans to be heard, to be seen, to be equal before the law, to be not three-fifths of a human being but human beings in full."
That long struggle was due to official white supremacy which made the struggle much, much longer than it had to be.
That long struggle was due to official white supremacy which made the struggle much, much longer than it had to be.
And nobody notices the even greater horror in American history, the Native
american genocide. Horrible as slavery was, the slaughter of the "Indians" was even worse.
american genocide. Horrible as slavery was, the slaughter of the "Indians" was even worse.
2
Slavery *is* memoralized in the US, not only in the statues erected to confederate "heros", to "preserve our heritage" - but in the culture we still share. The "heritage" of slavery - hardly something to preserve, memoralize, or remember with fondness. The cultural memorialization, which continues even into this present enlightened day and age, can be easily found in the economic exclusion of blacks, and a past of Jim Crow laws designed to disenfranchise, designed to segregate, to separate, to prevent minority's empowerment. We see this "heritage" of Jim Crow in the bogus "voter fraud" laws carefully crafted to disenfranchise minorities. Whites, particularly in the South, but everywhere in our great enlightened nation, systematically tried to excluded blacks from opportunities that would enable black families to grow out of poverty, to grow out of dependence. This is evident in the plain data, the numbers that won't conceal behind a pious "I'm not racist" that our society was and still has some serious problems making 'equal opportunity for all' the reality as well as the law and slogan. Certainly our current president has little interest in broadening opportunities for minorities. It is depressingly evident in his 'code-word' tweets, and the wink-wink speeches that leave little doubt why he's a favorite of the white supremacists and neo-Nazis - they know a fellow traveler when they see one.
A nation that spends the better part of its time beating itself up over "original sins" that were almost universal in their character (virtually every society on Earth has practiced slavery, and the establishment of slavery in the United States required the cooperation of European and African alike) is not a nation that will last long. This quest to demean if not outright banish our history as a nation is not good or moral or decent, it is Marxist if not Maoist. Its little more than an attempt to initiate our own cultural revolution. Not that I expect many lefties to know what that is, you would never receive honest information from the left that made any non-white, non-europeans look bad.
I agree that these confederate statues should not be destroyed, and that instead they should be placed in museums or other educational settings and be actively discussed.
Whether we like it or not, these statues are a fundamental part of our history. America spent the majority of its time since its founding mired in enslavement and racial divide, and these memorials are a constant reminder of that fact. But more than that - not only are they reminders of the history itself, they are also reminders of the struggle that took place to bring equality, justice, and freedom, values that we prize above all others in America today.
However, these values didn’t just come at no cost - they were the result of a long, bloody war, and once we start to topple the memorials to that war, no matter from which side, we begin to forget how hard-earned these American values were. Over time, if we continue down this path, I think the result will be a forgetfulness of how meaningful these values actually are to us as Americans.
That said, of course I don’t believe that these statutes should be praised or have inspiring inscriptions written under them. They should be brought into the educational realm, where students can have discussions about the meaning of values such as freedom, equality and justice in American society today, as well as how these values evolved over time. That way we can ensure continuity of a tradition of freedom, and ensure that such a horrible history does not repeat.
Whether we like it or not, these statues are a fundamental part of our history. America spent the majority of its time since its founding mired in enslavement and racial divide, and these memorials are a constant reminder of that fact. But more than that - not only are they reminders of the history itself, they are also reminders of the struggle that took place to bring equality, justice, and freedom, values that we prize above all others in America today.
However, these values didn’t just come at no cost - they were the result of a long, bloody war, and once we start to topple the memorials to that war, no matter from which side, we begin to forget how hard-earned these American values were. Over time, if we continue down this path, I think the result will be a forgetfulness of how meaningful these values actually are to us as Americans.
That said, of course I don’t believe that these statutes should be praised or have inspiring inscriptions written under them. They should be brought into the educational realm, where students can have discussions about the meaning of values such as freedom, equality and justice in American society today, as well as how these values evolved over time. That way we can ensure continuity of a tradition of freedom, and ensure that such a horrible history does not repeat.
1
As a young Australian student, I enter this discussion with a relatively fresh perspective and genuinely no political agenda. Cohen, I share your laments with the thought of the “laceration and lynching of black bodies” you describe so vividly. You raise a valid point in advocating for the removal of Confederate statues, considering the pain and injustice they represent. Their invasive presence on public streets is too celebratory and insensitive to those who were and still are subject to racial discrimination and abuse.
Thus, I agree, these Confederate statues should be relocated from public areas to museums with the sole purpose of education. We must learn from history and its inherent consequences. Images and physical sculptures from the civil war promote a visceral understanding of the events that occurred.
However, your article begs a question: Can we really shame historical figures in such censorious terms, simply because what they stood for contradicts our contemporary moral standards? By no means am I condoning what happened. By every means do I believe that the treatment of African Americans was indisputably immoral, inhumane and devastating. But as sad and almost unimaginable as it is, perhaps these Confederate “war-heroes” were simply products of the times. Gen. Robert E. Lee was born in 1807, almost two centuries after the beginning of slavery. The perverse beliefs for which he fought were likely conditioned from childhood through propaganda and convention.
Thus, I agree, these Confederate statues should be relocated from public areas to museums with the sole purpose of education. We must learn from history and its inherent consequences. Images and physical sculptures from the civil war promote a visceral understanding of the events that occurred.
However, your article begs a question: Can we really shame historical figures in such censorious terms, simply because what they stood for contradicts our contemporary moral standards? By no means am I condoning what happened. By every means do I believe that the treatment of African Americans was indisputably immoral, inhumane and devastating. But as sad and almost unimaginable as it is, perhaps these Confederate “war-heroes” were simply products of the times. Gen. Robert E. Lee was born in 1807, almost two centuries after the beginning of slavery. The perverse beliefs for which he fought were likely conditioned from childhood through propaganda and convention.
2
The terms of this debate are controlled by people, apparently including Mr. Cohen, unable or unwilling to distinguish between monuments to anonymous Confederate soldiers erected in the late 19th century with the intent of honoring war dead and promoting reconciliation, and monuments to individual Confederate generals erected in the mid 20th century with the intent of intimidating one group of American citizens. The sentiment behind the desire to see "the current of history wash away" the democratically elected President of the United States is remarkably at odds with President Lincoln's magnanimity at the hour of victory, and betrays not only hostility towards the President, but an unworthy malice towards all who support him.
3
@SM, please explain why we now should "honor" soldiers or their commanders who took up arms to kill Americans. Lets not forget that those Confederates did not want to remain citizens of the United States of America.
As for the "current history" issue and our current Chief Executive - just remember what the marchers in Charlottesville were chanting while carrying their torches in the dark of the night. Lincoln was magnanimous when victory was at hand and the rebellion was ended. Until then Mr Lincoln offered no quarter, realizing failure meant the end of the UNITED states.
Mr Trump, Prevaricator in Chief, on the other hand, had as his senior advisor an individual who proudly admitted to running a business that was “the platform for the alt-right” - those very ones who marched with torches in Charlottesville. They were not there to honor Robert E Lee and a statue put there in 1924 (a time coinciding with the rebirth of the KKK). They were there to "unite the right" with their "blood and soil" creed. Guess where THAT idea came from: "Blut und Boden" --> Wiki: Blood and soil (German: Blut und Boden) was a key slogan of Nazi ideology, a German idealization of a racially defined national body ("blood") united with a settlement area ("soil"). But Trump seemed to be perfectly ok with it all, as was his alt-right advisor Steve Bannon.
Perhaps these statues of Confederate soldiers and generals-on-their-horse should be in museums. To remind us of what NOT to be.
As for the "current history" issue and our current Chief Executive - just remember what the marchers in Charlottesville were chanting while carrying their torches in the dark of the night. Lincoln was magnanimous when victory was at hand and the rebellion was ended. Until then Mr Lincoln offered no quarter, realizing failure meant the end of the UNITED states.
Mr Trump, Prevaricator in Chief, on the other hand, had as his senior advisor an individual who proudly admitted to running a business that was “the platform for the alt-right” - those very ones who marched with torches in Charlottesville. They were not there to honor Robert E Lee and a statue put there in 1924 (a time coinciding with the rebirth of the KKK). They were there to "unite the right" with their "blood and soil" creed. Guess where THAT idea came from: "Blut und Boden" --> Wiki: Blood and soil (German: Blut und Boden) was a key slogan of Nazi ideology, a German idealization of a racially defined national body ("blood") united with a settlement area ("soil"). But Trump seemed to be perfectly ok with it all, as was his alt-right advisor Steve Bannon.
Perhaps these statues of Confederate soldiers and generals-on-their-horse should be in museums. To remind us of what NOT to be.
Since there's "blame on both sides," maybe we could craft an answer both sides might tolerate: melt the statues into civil-war era, single-shot rifles. That would placate the NRA and other Klan-like organizations. And the left wouldn't have to face assault rifles at free-speech rallies.
"The past is never over. It isn't even past"
1
The American civil war is unique in that so many of those celebrated in bronze were the losers. In Germany I never saw a statue of a World War One general or the Kaiser who commanded the government. With the exception of Napoleon the losers are stricken from memory and pedestal. Is it healthy to admire those who brought your side to defeat? It hasn't been for the South.
3
There is a statue of Charles I in London.
1
Let's be clear - every single member of the Confederacy was a traitor. The Confederates rose up in armed insurrection against the United States of America - the very highest of high treason. Forget race, forget slavery. You don't build monuments to damned traitors, period.
10
'Traitors' is from the perspective of those who won. Perhaps the UK and other European countries do a better job of accommodating their past regardless of which side won. We see statues of Oliver Cromwell, William Wallace, Louis XVI, etc., all deemed traitors at one time or another. A notable traitor honored by many 'progressives' in the US is John Brown.
@ Nick, good points. You don't build monuments to traitors, unless you still agree with what they were fighting for. Is the Civil War (or its lessons) REALLY over? Ask that of the Texas Boys State who this June voted to secede from the Union
https://texasnationalist.com/blog/2017/06/25/%EF%BB%BFthe-vote-is-in-and...
Unbelievable.
https://texasnationalist.com/blog/2017/06/25/%EF%BB%BFthe-vote-is-in-and...
Unbelievable.
Why bring the Holocaust into this story? Why bring the creation of the Holocaust Memorial Museum into this story. Is it a means for the author to make clear his own antisemitism? Putting him on the same plane as the Confederate sympathizers he is criticizing?
1
What are you talking about? He is saying that in contrast to all the Holocaust museums that memorialize the suffering of the Jews, there are very few museums about the suffering of black Americans during slavery.
6
Nor are there museums about the sufferings of those non-slaves in the South who opposed secession, let alone slavery. Those victims of the Confederacy have been written out of history.
The Jews were taken into Europe as slaves. Even when they achieved their "freedom" they were persecuted and confined to certain areas, kept out of certain sectors of the economy, kept in poverty, periodically attacked, raped constantly, murdered frequently. In some places a number were able to fight their way out of the material persecution, they thought, and deal only with the social kind. Finally an attempt was made at wiping them out completely, regardless of financial status.
The ancestors of most African Americans were brought to this nation as slaves. They were raped, beaten, without even the right to hold on to their ancient religions, forced to convert even while kept in chains. After their "freedom" was achieved still their persecution continued. They were kept to certain areas, kept out of of certain sectors of the economy, kept in poverty, periodically attacked, raped constantly, murdered frequently. In some places a number were able to fight their way out of the material persecution, they thought, and deal only with the social kind. All that is yet to happen is an attempt to wipe them out completely-- something a greater number of the worshipers of these statues and monuments than would admit would like to see accomplished. So there you have it.
As for your claim that Cohen is an antisemite? Clearly delusional on the face of it. You are precisely why we need to build and preserve monuments and museums to Man's inhumanity to Man and the dangers of fanatics.
The ancestors of most African Americans were brought to this nation as slaves. They were raped, beaten, without even the right to hold on to their ancient religions, forced to convert even while kept in chains. After their "freedom" was achieved still their persecution continued. They were kept to certain areas, kept out of of certain sectors of the economy, kept in poverty, periodically attacked, raped constantly, murdered frequently. In some places a number were able to fight their way out of the material persecution, they thought, and deal only with the social kind. All that is yet to happen is an attempt to wipe them out completely-- something a greater number of the worshipers of these statues and monuments than would admit would like to see accomplished. So there you have it.
As for your claim that Cohen is an antisemite? Clearly delusional on the face of it. You are precisely why we need to build and preserve monuments and museums to Man's inhumanity to Man and the dangers of fanatics.
"By comparison, the great American crime of slavery, the laceration and lynching of black bodies, was scarcely memorialized." Along with the destruction of the indigenous people. American was built upon two original sins, not one.
8
The war against the native tribes was just that, a war. Virtually every nation alive today was founded at least in part on war between cultures and tribes and peoples. And the native tribes participated in wars against each other just the same as anyone else. Slavery, too, was nearly universal in centuries past.
You want America to endure inordinary self-beratement and humiliation for very ordinary historical events.
You want America to endure inordinary self-beratement and humiliation for very ordinary historical events.
Southerners say "But it is our history". Yes, it is. A history you should no more be proud of than the Germans are proud of the Third Reich. In Germany, no one would raise a statue to Hilter or his henchmen. They understand that is was their darkest hour, their ignomy. Why do you raise statues to men who stood for slavery? Don't you realize that it something to be ashame of having done? Yes, those are statues to shame.
9
There isa statue of Bismarck in Berlin.
1
Here are a couple of middle way suggestions that will irritate both sides equally:
1) Remove the general, but leave the statue of the horse. Traveller did not, as far as I have read, indicate any political leanings.
2) The indignant young who wish to honor the Confederate fallen could replace the small iron crosses with the C. S. A. that used to be seen at the foot of old soldiers' graves. Now those are rusted away or were perhaps vandalized by the once youthful fathers of the indignant young wishing to honor Confederates.
1) Remove the general, but leave the statue of the horse. Traveller did not, as far as I have read, indicate any political leanings.
2) The indignant young who wish to honor the Confederate fallen could replace the small iron crosses with the C. S. A. that used to be seen at the foot of old soldiers' graves. Now those are rusted away or were perhaps vandalized by the once youthful fathers of the indignant young wishing to honor Confederates.
1
If anyone believes that this will stop at Confederate statues-- then there is a fool.
There have probably been 10,000 books written about the Civil War. Read a few of the best, those by Shelby Foote, Bruce Catton, and a few others. Then you will understand why there are commemorations.
Shall the Confederate unit memorials at the big battlefields: Gettysburg, Antietam, Vicksburg, etc. be taken down while the Union one remain? After all, they are on Federal property.
How many articled did you write about Confederate monuments in years past, Roger? Why not? Because all that matters is which way the wind is blowing....today.
There have probably been 10,000 books written about the Civil War. Read a few of the best, those by Shelby Foote, Bruce Catton, and a few others. Then you will understand why there are commemorations.
Shall the Confederate unit memorials at the big battlefields: Gettysburg, Antietam, Vicksburg, etc. be taken down while the Union one remain? After all, they are on Federal property.
How many articled did you write about Confederate monuments in years past, Roger? Why not? Because all that matters is which way the wind is blowing....today.
3
All the monuments to Confederate "honor, valor and heroism" were a form of appeasement to the southern scoundrels who retook control of our region after reconstruction. The northern submission to southern hostility was a compromise of the 1876 election. However, what few historians ever recall is how "Bitterly Divided" (the title of one great historian's book) the south was against itself before, during and after the Civil War. Some Civil War buffs think that the uprising in the "Kingdom of Jones" was an oddity. Actually, such insurrections were common throughout the South, and thousands of Southerners were pro-union, many giving their lives for the cause. In Texas, we have few monuments to Sam Houston, our first president and governor, who bitterly opposed secession. On the University of Texas campus, we had side-by-side statues of George Washington and Jefferson Davis. The latter has been recently removed. But I don't recall a single monument to Sam Houston, a true hero and an emblem of Southern courage.
2
Live by the sword, expect to die by it.
Not an exact quote, but close enough to make sense to me.
No one who settles problems and metes out their form of violent "justice" can expect mercy from their opponents.
Let the crazy people take each other out, but leave their families out of it, especially their young children, who grow up in a culture of revenge that only begets crime after crime from generations far removed from the grudges and violence of their ancestors.
Kids resent and hate the music and clothes and times of their parents. Why hold on to the hateful, violent, meaningless ancient feelings of hate between people who have never met?
Not an exact quote, but close enough to make sense to me.
No one who settles problems and metes out their form of violent "justice" can expect mercy from their opponents.
Let the crazy people take each other out, but leave their families out of it, especially their young children, who grow up in a culture of revenge that only begets crime after crime from generations far removed from the grudges and violence of their ancestors.
Kids resent and hate the music and clothes and times of their parents. Why hold on to the hateful, violent, meaningless ancient feelings of hate between people who have never met?
The focus on statues is just another sign of how deeply entrenched the institutional racism is the US, as people ignore the real legacies of slavery and racism. Some examples are noted below. One suspects that there is actually a purpose behind the focus on statues as it detracts from recognizing the real problems exhibited across the US, in areas controlled by both parties.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/04/28/we-cant-forget-ho...
"Throughout much of the 20th century, discrimination by race was integral to the design, development, marketing and even financing of American cities and suburbs. Discrimination was sanctioned and aggressively promoted by real estate boards, neighborhood associations, municipal governments, state and federal courts, mortgage lenders, and a host of federal housing and development programs……Our contemporary urban and suburban landscapes continue to reflect that history and seldom a day passes when we are not reminded of its legacies."
https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2015/05/06/institutional-r...
Institutional Racism Is Our Way of Life
"What they all point to quite clearly is that institutional racism exists in nearly ever corner of American society today, and is what is driving the tension we are seeing on the streets in urban cities. The root causes are what we must deal with, not the symptoms."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/04/28/we-cant-forget-ho...
"Throughout much of the 20th century, discrimination by race was integral to the design, development, marketing and even financing of American cities and suburbs. Discrimination was sanctioned and aggressively promoted by real estate boards, neighborhood associations, municipal governments, state and federal courts, mortgage lenders, and a host of federal housing and development programs……Our contemporary urban and suburban landscapes continue to reflect that history and seldom a day passes when we are not reminded of its legacies."
https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2015/05/06/institutional-r...
Institutional Racism Is Our Way of Life
"What they all point to quite clearly is that institutional racism exists in nearly ever corner of American society today, and is what is driving the tension we are seeing on the streets in urban cities. The root causes are what we must deal with, not the symptoms."
1
Now that these abominable remnants of the Confederacy are finally meeting their deserved fate, it might be good to remember another monument dedicated to the opposite--the statue to the 53rd Massachusetts in Boston--and the poem by Robert Lowell honoring that statue, For the Union Dead. He contrasts the tawdry, destructive commercial world that midcentury America had become with the self-sacrifice of Robert Gould Shaw and his regiment. Lowell says that the monument "sticks like a fishbone in the city's throat." It has always struck me that racist garbage such as "Gone with the Wind" is more popular than the hard truths about that war and the fact that its issues have never been fully confronted. There's a moment in the movie "Glory" where one of Shaw's soldiers says to him, "It stinks bad. And we all covered up in it too. Ain't nobody clean. Be nice to get clean, though." How? "We ante up and kick in."
1
The only reason for making a large issue out of this sort of thing is that progressives can't or won't address the real issues in our country. Like gang violence, criminals who are not in this country legally, how to get our economy to provide jobs for our citizens, and many other real important issues. Yet they have plenty of time to whine about stone that they could easily ignore if it bothers them.
3
A bigger problem is that many southern evangelicals take Bronze Age mythology seriously at the expense of science and education. As a result, they are not qualified for most occupations in our increasingly high tech economy.
Just because you are only capable of doing one thing at a time does not mean that others are so afflicted.
vulcanalex: it is a cheap and easy way to "get revenge" and "get even" with "deplorables" (whom the left wrongly assumes are all Southerners)...toppling a 100 year old statue, in the middle of the night...WAY easier than (say) integrating schools or neighborhoods in NEW YORK CITY or CHICAGO or any of the SEGREGATED Northern cities, that had no slavery but plenty of discrimination.
When the real problems are jobs and globalization and automation stealing jobs --- illegal aliens flouting our laws -- porous borders -- terrorism -- North Korea -- nothing says "lefty liberalism" like toppling and melting down some 100 year old Civil War statues!
When the real problems are jobs and globalization and automation stealing jobs --- illegal aliens flouting our laws -- porous borders -- terrorism -- North Korea -- nothing says "lefty liberalism" like toppling and melting down some 100 year old Civil War statues!
I was enraged when the Bush administration stood by and did nothing as bin Laden's Al Qaeda/Taliban spent a week or more, using bazookas, rockets, plastic explosives, whatever it took, to destroy the Bamiyan Buddhas in March 2001 as prelude to 9-11. I am not a Buddhist.
I am equally outraged by what ISIS has done to the ancient archaeological sites of Mesopotamia and wherever else they have been able to engage in such destruction. All of this is intended to do exactly what this article warns against-- the wiping from history of something seen by those presently in charge as undesirable.
I had ancestors fight on both sides of the Civil War though I only learned of the Confederate ones a few years ago, when my mother who had raised me on the glorious stories of her grandfather and great uncles from Pennsylvania who fought for the Union finally confessed to her great hidden secret-- there were also cousins in Maryland who fought on the the other side. I was devastated. I repudiate what they did and stood for. I do not want monuments to their valor, I want records of their treason.
These statues and all other public glorification of the rebellion of the slave states needs to be preserved-- not in situ where it is now, on public property, but as Mr. Cohen suggests, in a museum of Our Own Holocaust. And let them be joined by all my Union heroes too-- who went on to complete the genocide against the Native Americans, presidents, generals, and Buffalo Soldiers alike. A circle.
I am equally outraged by what ISIS has done to the ancient archaeological sites of Mesopotamia and wherever else they have been able to engage in such destruction. All of this is intended to do exactly what this article warns against-- the wiping from history of something seen by those presently in charge as undesirable.
I had ancestors fight on both sides of the Civil War though I only learned of the Confederate ones a few years ago, when my mother who had raised me on the glorious stories of her grandfather and great uncles from Pennsylvania who fought for the Union finally confessed to her great hidden secret-- there were also cousins in Maryland who fought on the the other side. I was devastated. I repudiate what they did and stood for. I do not want monuments to their valor, I want records of their treason.
These statues and all other public glorification of the rebellion of the slave states needs to be preserved-- not in situ where it is now, on public property, but as Mr. Cohen suggests, in a museum of Our Own Holocaust. And let them be joined by all my Union heroes too-- who went on to complete the genocide against the Native Americans, presidents, generals, and Buffalo Soldiers alike. A circle.
1
ISIS in Mesopotamia was not trying to erase history, but to erase what to them were false gods and a false religion. This is what Christians did in the past when they went into a region and do so today in primitive areas. They call it bringing enlightenment.
To the truly enlightened, it's cultural destruction. They are replacing the false gods of others with their own false gods.
To the truly enlightened, it's cultural destruction. They are replacing the false gods of others with their own false gods.
We had two Confederate soldiers in our family. We honor one and not the other. The nation could do the same.
One was a teenage dirt farmer who was told that the Yankees were coming to take his land, that there probably would not be any fighting, and that it would be over in six months. He did not own or know anyone who owned slaves. He lost his farm because of the war. Statues of Confederate soldiers honor him because he sacrificed his welfare by doing what he was told he should do by his leaders.
The other was a distant cousin, Nathan Bradford Forrest, a lieutenant general, a wealthy farmer and slave trader, and an early member of the Klu Klux Klan. He led torch-lit marches after the war discouraging freed slaves from voting. His grave has been moved twice and his name removed from some places. The wrong that he did should be remembered but his statues should be removed from public places.
One thing is very clear: We must not forget.
One was a teenage dirt farmer who was told that the Yankees were coming to take his land, that there probably would not be any fighting, and that it would be over in six months. He did not own or know anyone who owned slaves. He lost his farm because of the war. Statues of Confederate soldiers honor him because he sacrificed his welfare by doing what he was told he should do by his leaders.
The other was a distant cousin, Nathan Bradford Forrest, a lieutenant general, a wealthy farmer and slave trader, and an early member of the Klu Klux Klan. He led torch-lit marches after the war discouraging freed slaves from voting. His grave has been moved twice and his name removed from some places. The wrong that he did should be remembered but his statues should be removed from public places.
One thing is very clear: We must not forget.
6
"There is a reason for this war. America has been adept at evasion. A nation conceived as exceptional, a beacon to the world, could not but run from its original sin. How often I have wondered at all the museums and memorials to the Holocaust, the great crime against European Jewry that did not happen here, of which the United States was neither perpetrator nor victim. By comparison, the great American crime of slavery, the laceration and lynching of black bodies, was scarcely memorialized."
Well said. BTW, i read recently that modern genetic testing shows that approximately 10-12% of people in South Carolina who identify as white have some black ancestry.
Well said. BTW, i read recently that modern genetic testing shows that approximately 10-12% of people in South Carolina who identify as white have some black ancestry.
2
What no one is talking about is the statues of memory left out. They include Blacks, women and Jews. MLK, Frederick Douglas, Rosa Parks, Harriet Beecher Stowe, Tubman and Einstein to name a few. The selectivity of memory here is mind boggling.
3
No one is stopping you from putting up statues.
leave Lee alone.
leave Lee alone.
1
Why honor military leaders who led their followers to defeat for an unworthy cause? That is never done anywhere else in the world. Are there statues to Hitler in modern Germany? No. Are there statues to Mussolini in modern Italy? No. Are their statues of Tojo in modern Japan? No. The only reason statues went up to Southern bigots was to intimidate black people and hold them back. If not, why is there no statue in the South to Gen. James Longstreet, one of the top Southern generals? Because he was not such a bigot. He said, "Let black men vote. Give them a chance." Where else in the world are there statues to traitors? Nowhere. This are no statues to Quisling in Norway. If you can find a statue to a traitor anywhere else in the world, let us know about it. The statues of Confederate generals have to come down.
10
Just, Thank You Roger Cohen.
3
Conceived in EXCEPTIONALISM exposes the first myth. Without exception, nation after nation arises to the clarion call of exceptionalism. Ask any Anglo, French resident, German, Ethiopian, Nigerian, Laotian, if their ancestors, nation, creation, existence is not exceptional and I'll bet a box of Boston creme donuts the answer is yes.
And we don't have to go back to slavery for national stains and horrors- say Indian.
And we don't have to go back to slavery for national stains and horrors- say Indian.
1
These monuments do celebrate the heritage of the south. Unfortunately the heritage of the south is slavery, white supremacy and the terrorism of black Americans. The real problem isn't the statues, it's that we allow a (seemingly large) segment of the population to indoctrinate youth into the lie that there is some other, forgotten, good reason to celebrate "souther heritage". Except there isn't, there's slavery, white supremacy and terrorism...
2
If I see someone waving a confederate flag today, odds are good that person is a faithful Christian and would be willing to pick up a gun and go off to fight and possibly die for the *American* flag. Much more willing, in fact, than those most opposed to confederate symbols.
Southern heritage includes faith and duty and honor. Virtues all.
Southern heritage includes faith and duty and honor. Virtues all.
1
The Confederates were violent traitors who killed many thousands of Americans. The statues are monuments to treason--the perpetrators of that treason should have been hanged or shot.
2
Sorry Roger, you're usually spot on in most issues but not here. It is possible for a white southern today to despise the ignorant fascists marching in Charlottesville and still venerate Robert E. Lee as their greatest military leader of the Civil War. Few of the thousands upon thousands of young men who died fighting for the South owned slaves; they were fighting for home and state, the first cause of the conflict which only became an effort to free the slaves in the third year of the war. Lincoln's initial aims were not to outlaw slavery but to preserve the union and he even considered setting up a new country in Africa for them since he feared whites and blacks could not live in harmony together. Such thoughts are, well, racist. Do you then rip him off that ivory seat as well?
I think it's time for the North to forgive the South for being 'traitors' and come to terms with the fact that it was far more than slavery that caused the rebellion and let them honour their military past. Lee was a heroic soldier, always outnumbered, who nonetheless held off an army 3-4 times the sizeof his own for three years. If you can honor the likes of Leonidas at Thermopylae, you can honor Robert E. Lee at Virginia.
I think it's time for the North to forgive the South for being 'traitors' and come to terms with the fact that it was far more than slavery that caused the rebellion and let them honour their military past. Lee was a heroic soldier, always outnumbered, who nonetheless held off an army 3-4 times the sizeof his own for three years. If you can honor the likes of Leonidas at Thermopylae, you can honor Robert E. Lee at Virginia.
6
Reconciliation, between white Americans at least, was achieved, and in the 20th Century the former combatants became "brothers in blue and grey."
Much is now made of the political motivations behind memorialization of the Confederacy and there is undoubtedly much to support this. Certainly, the United Daughters of the Confederacy planted their monuments wherever they could, leading to such incongruities as a Confederate memorial in the memorial park by the Arizona capitol.
However, most Civil War memorials in both North and South went up in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries as the combatants on both sides (and their progeny) considered the hellacious and historic conflict they'd been a part of and moved to memorialize the experience by erecting monuments to ordinary soldiers and their great commanders. I suspect that the ubiquitous courthouse monuments in the South owe largely to each county's population not wanting to have seemed wanting in appreciation for its veterans and dead.
Now a frenzy of purification is sweeping the country. The purifiers would do better to concentrate on adding rather than tearing down. The Little Big Horn Battlefield provides an example of the way to go -- markers were long ago placed where US cavalry men fell but have since been joined by markers where native American warriors on both sides died "defending their way of life."
Much is now made of the political motivations behind memorialization of the Confederacy and there is undoubtedly much to support this. Certainly, the United Daughters of the Confederacy planted their monuments wherever they could, leading to such incongruities as a Confederate memorial in the memorial park by the Arizona capitol.
However, most Civil War memorials in both North and South went up in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries as the combatants on both sides (and their progeny) considered the hellacious and historic conflict they'd been a part of and moved to memorialize the experience by erecting monuments to ordinary soldiers and their great commanders. I suspect that the ubiquitous courthouse monuments in the South owe largely to each county's population not wanting to have seemed wanting in appreciation for its veterans and dead.
Now a frenzy of purification is sweeping the country. The purifiers would do better to concentrate on adding rather than tearing down. The Little Big Horn Battlefield provides an example of the way to go -- markers were long ago placed where US cavalry men fell but have since been joined by markers where native American warriors on both sides died "defending their way of life."
3
History is complex and ambiguous.
Most Americans are simple - minded.
Few of us are intellectually equipped to understand much of anything.
We do better with slogans and generalities.
We much prefer a false simplification to a complex truth.
Hence, we got racism, the Republicans, then Trump.
Most Americans are simple - minded.
Few of us are intellectually equipped to understand much of anything.
We do better with slogans and generalities.
We much prefer a false simplification to a complex truth.
Hence, we got racism, the Republicans, then Trump.
4
Check out the Duke of Wellington statue in Glasgow then move on.
Life is too short.
Life is too short.
Civil War statues of confederate "heros" should remain in place, but to impart a history lesson based on the truth of the matter, the inscriptions should be redone to explain each "honoree's" treasonous pursuit of a) illegal breakup of the United States, b) the right of states to subjugate by law, all peoples of African decent to lifelong slavery, c) the institutionalizing of colored peoples' inferiority, relegation to poverty and dependence, and white peoples' superiority as declared by the Presbyterian Church of the Confederate States and others, and d) a war beginning with an attack on Fort Sumpter by the illegal Confederate army while naming it the "War of northern aggression" , a name that is still used until this day.
2
I have traveled extensively in Norway, and I never saw a statue of Quisling.
Those statues do tell a story, -they are undeniable artifacts, totems really, of the cause of white supremacy. But that's all they are. They are not segregated schools. They are not whites only establishments or seats on a bus. They are not poverty or war or suffering they are only glorified garden ornaments decorating a park, they are only an inanimate chunk of tin and copper. They are worthless, and so they are not worth dying for. The hysteria on the left to purify American civic space of all "bad totems" at this particular moment is absolutely the expression of anger and frustration at having lost the election. Breaking the other side's totems will not change anything except the decoration of parks.
2
What a shame these beautiful statues are gone due to a few peoples feelings being hurt......
My feelings get hurt to but I don't attempt to try to change the landscape of everyone else.
My feelings get hurt to but I don't attempt to try to change the landscape of everyone else.
1
It's unfortunate that due to the hurricanes this issue has already started to fade, the media is losing interest. Americans will lose interest too, as they have very short attention spans in general, and the idea of removing Confederate monuments will be off the table again in a month, just as it was a month ago. Notice that in July, nobody was calling for Confederate statue removal. In October, nobody will either.
However, the notion that America has forgotten slavery or the Civil War is ludicrous. Everybody knows about slavery, and the most dedicated racists regret its demise. Everybody also knows about the Civil War, and again, the racists regret losing. Rather than focus on the sins of the past, it might be better to try to educate the devout racists in America, who seem to be at least a fifth and possibly a third of the population.
However, the notion that America has forgotten slavery or the Civil War is ludicrous. Everybody knows about slavery, and the most dedicated racists regret its demise. Everybody also knows about the Civil War, and again, the racists regret losing. Rather than focus on the sins of the past, it might be better to try to educate the devout racists in America, who seem to be at least a fifth and possibly a third of the population.
1
ROGER COHEN Makes many valid and crucial points. I think, still, that crucial focus must be direct onto the fact that most of the Civil War memorials were erected between 1890 and 1930-40, at least one generation after the end of the war. They categorically did NOT reflect the beliefs of the leaders such as Robert E. Lee, who, when asked if he wished a memorial with a statue of himself declined, saying that the country needed to focus on healing. The memorials, then, are a fiction constructed in the Jim Crow South not that the Confederacy would rise again. But rather, that African-American citizens would once again be oppressed, subjected to de facto segregation, just as when they were slaves. People are welcome to their feelings about the statues. I revile them. I abominate them. To me as a Jew, they are as vile as the public display of Nazi slogans and images.
5
Humiliation is the perfect word. And Trump, with his collaborators, are fine with everlasting, eternal humiliation. And why not? THEY will not be subject to scorn. They can use that hate to garner votes. They can harness spite for support, with little pushback and NO regrets. For me, personally, I completely and totally reject any person that votes for any GOP candidate.
Not only with my vote, my money, my support, but with any respect or civility. Collaborators are the scourge of decent society. Decent people do not associate with racists or race-baiters. It's that simple.
Not only with my vote, my money, my support, but with any respect or civility. Collaborators are the scourge of decent society. Decent people do not associate with racists or race-baiters. It's that simple.
3
The Civil War was not about the slavery. It was a CONFLICT between the federal and state rights.
Here are the facts:
The Emancipation Proclamation was an EXECUTIVE ORDER issued by President Lincoln on January 1, 1863. It changed the federal legal status of more than 3 million enslaved people in the designated areas of the South from slave to free. As soon as a slave escaped the control of the Confederate government, by running away or through advances of federal troops, the slave became legally free. Eventually it reached and liberated all of the designated slaves.
It did not cover slaves in Union areas that were freed by state action (or by the 13th amendment in December 1865). It was issued as a WAR MEASURE during the American Civil War, directed to all of the areas in rebellion. The Proclamation ordered the freedom of all slaves in JUST TEN STATES.
Because it was issued under the president's authority to suppress rebellion (war powers), it necessarily excluded areas not in rebellion – it applied to more than 3 million of the 4 million slaves at the time.
It means the slavery was LEGAL in the North even after the end of the Civil War.
The shocking part is that the slavery in the North lasted LONGER than in the South.
By the way, our national capital is still named after a SLAVE OWNER…
Only if the US Congress voted for the Constitutional amendment banning the slavery on 01/01/1861 it would make sense to claim that the Civil War broke over the slavery…
Here are the facts:
The Emancipation Proclamation was an EXECUTIVE ORDER issued by President Lincoln on January 1, 1863. It changed the federal legal status of more than 3 million enslaved people in the designated areas of the South from slave to free. As soon as a slave escaped the control of the Confederate government, by running away or through advances of federal troops, the slave became legally free. Eventually it reached and liberated all of the designated slaves.
It did not cover slaves in Union areas that were freed by state action (or by the 13th amendment in December 1865). It was issued as a WAR MEASURE during the American Civil War, directed to all of the areas in rebellion. The Proclamation ordered the freedom of all slaves in JUST TEN STATES.
Because it was issued under the president's authority to suppress rebellion (war powers), it necessarily excluded areas not in rebellion – it applied to more than 3 million of the 4 million slaves at the time.
It means the slavery was LEGAL in the North even after the end of the Civil War.
The shocking part is that the slavery in the North lasted LONGER than in the South.
By the way, our national capital is still named after a SLAVE OWNER…
Only if the US Congress voted for the Constitutional amendment banning the slavery on 01/01/1861 it would make sense to claim that the Civil War broke over the slavery…
2
Pretty much agree about the Emancipation Proclamation, but folks whose study of American history ended in grade 12 aren't likely to understand its limitations.
They are too busy calling Southerners "traitors."
They are too busy calling Southerners "traitors."
The state right defended by the Confederacy was the right own slaves. The issue of slavery was the overwhelming cause of the Civil War. The South continues to be the most backward region of the US. Do you really believe the war was caused because of nuances of political science?
"The Civil War was not about the slavery." Before citing any more specious facts to support your illogical arguments, I suggest you read the Acts of Secession adopted by most of the rebellious states. The Civil War was ONLY about the perpetuation of slavery in the seceding states and their desire to spread it to other parts of the United States. The "states rights" justification was a construct done several years after the War's end to mask the real reason for secession and to provide a more acceptable veneer for resisting Reconstruction , keeping former slaves economically and politically subjugated, and denying them basic civil rights.Tragically It worked for 100 years because many people believed this specious argument ,and unfortunately some still do today.
While I can certainly sympathize with moves to remove Confederate statuary from locations of public honor, I'm a bit surprised at the comparative silence on the need to remove statues of other political officials and generals-- both Union and Confederate-- who were involved in the horrible butchery and genocide of the continent's native Americans shortly before and after the Civil War. Undoubtedly what the Confederates did, and the cause they were fighting for, was reprehensible and should not be celebrated.
However, the genocide of the indigenous peoples of North America remains the worst of the USA's original sins and crimes against humanity, and at the very least, there should not be statues, schools or roads commemorating officials who, acting as agents of the US government, committed massacres and deliberately targeted the natives for genocide. This includes many Confederates and Southern slaveholders, most notoriously Andrew Jackson. But it also includes a good number of Unionists, including Philip Sheridan, who openly proclaimed that the "only good Indian is a dead Indian" and backed up his words with genocidal zeal. It also includes General William T. Sherman, who was the chief of the US post-Civil War military and the chief figure responsible for the genocidal near-extermination of the native tribes of the Great Plains. Sherman also vocally advocated genocide as much as his fellow general Sheridan did. A moral movement demands their monuments to be removed too.
However, the genocide of the indigenous peoples of North America remains the worst of the USA's original sins and crimes against humanity, and at the very least, there should not be statues, schools or roads commemorating officials who, acting as agents of the US government, committed massacres and deliberately targeted the natives for genocide. This includes many Confederates and Southern slaveholders, most notoriously Andrew Jackson. But it also includes a good number of Unionists, including Philip Sheridan, who openly proclaimed that the "only good Indian is a dead Indian" and backed up his words with genocidal zeal. It also includes General William T. Sherman, who was the chief of the US post-Civil War military and the chief figure responsible for the genocidal near-extermination of the native tribes of the Great Plains. Sherman also vocally advocated genocide as much as his fellow general Sheridan did. A moral movement demands their monuments to be removed too.
1
I honestly have mixed feelings about this sort of thing.
Recently I visited the Tower of London. An imposing structure, built to instill fear into the citizens of London, it was a symbol of oppression where people were imprisoned and tortured for centuries. Unquestionably it was a horrible place, but at the same it is part of their history and it would have been a shame if it had been torn down.
Recently I visited the Tower of London. An imposing structure, built to instill fear into the citizens of London, it was a symbol of oppression where people were imprisoned and tortured for centuries. Unquestionably it was a horrible place, but at the same it is part of their history and it would have been a shame if it had been torn down.
4
Cohen writes "The South nursed its wounds, rewrote the story, adjusted the cause." Yes, the South nursed its wounds but it did not rewrite the story. The North rewrote the story. The North imposed its unforgiving will on the South after the Civil War; Northern troops occupied the South until 1877, practicing the tactics they would use against native tribes in the Indian Wars of the late nineteenth century. Only after the Northern troops ended its occupation of the South, did the region start anew. The Old South became the New South and progressed into the 20th century.
3
The Old South didn't become the New South until Brown v. Bd. of Education, the NAACP and leaders like Martin Luther King dragged it into the 20th century.
I was stationed in the segregated South, and found little evidence that the South had progressed into 20th century. Do you really believe the fairy tale that the Universe was created in six days less than ten thousand years ago?
The "Old South" did not become the "New South" after the end of Reconstruction. It remained the "Old South" for almost 100 years and did not "progress" into the 20th century; it was in many cases forcibly dragged kicking and screaming into the last century.
From my American history classes, I recall there was a disputed Presidential election in 1876 where all the "white people" cut a deal:
a) The Democratic candidate wouldn't dispute the ballots from several union-army occupied states and allow the Republican candidate to win.
b) The Republicans in turn would withdraw all Federal troops from the South and let Southerners "arrange their own affairs as they saw fit".
This effectively ended Reconstruction and started the Jim Crow Era and by then, "white people" pretty much had stopped caring.
This is part of American History too. And as far as I'm aware, there are no statues to be removed that commemorate this deal.
a) The Democratic candidate wouldn't dispute the ballots from several union-army occupied states and allow the Republican candidate to win.
b) The Republicans in turn would withdraw all Federal troops from the South and let Southerners "arrange their own affairs as they saw fit".
This effectively ended Reconstruction and started the Jim Crow Era and by then, "white people" pretty much had stopped caring.
This is part of American History too. And as far as I'm aware, there are no statues to be removed that commemorate this deal.
2
'Your great grand-father was in the Confederacy', exclaimed my new neighbor from Barbados, surprising me and causing a smile on my part. Friends, regardless of race and culture, are not interested in these family stories. It takes two as a rule to wage a war, and there is no such thing as a 'Civil' one.
When the PBS series by Ken Burns was released in the 1990s some of us were rushing home to follow this brilliant series. My boss at the time, a prominent economist was having dinner with one of the directors of the above, and on my behalf, asked him to sign his name under a photo of this ancestor of mine, a doctor before the age of 21 who fought under Stonewall Jackson. His brother in the cavalry was killed by his side, and he survived to become a professional in Baltimore, tending to the care of women and wrote extensively of the Confederacy.
His three daughters came North after graduating from Bryn Mawr, two physicians, one scientist, a biological marine engineer who won an award for a breakthrough on stem cell research before she had the right to vote.
We are dragging our heels, revisiting the graveyards of the Past, a Nation that is now navigating on sensitivity and little sensibility. 'A Happy Country has no Heroes', but we could use some in the times we live, and as for brain cells, these are essential no matter where, no matter when, but we appear intent on washing these violently away.
Racism in on the rise and so is Fascism in The Land of the Free.
When the PBS series by Ken Burns was released in the 1990s some of us were rushing home to follow this brilliant series. My boss at the time, a prominent economist was having dinner with one of the directors of the above, and on my behalf, asked him to sign his name under a photo of this ancestor of mine, a doctor before the age of 21 who fought under Stonewall Jackson. His brother in the cavalry was killed by his side, and he survived to become a professional in Baltimore, tending to the care of women and wrote extensively of the Confederacy.
His three daughters came North after graduating from Bryn Mawr, two physicians, one scientist, a biological marine engineer who won an award for a breakthrough on stem cell research before she had the right to vote.
We are dragging our heels, revisiting the graveyards of the Past, a Nation that is now navigating on sensitivity and little sensibility. 'A Happy Country has no Heroes', but we could use some in the times we live, and as for brain cells, these are essential no matter where, no matter when, but we appear intent on washing these violently away.
Racism in on the rise and so is Fascism in The Land of the Free.
7
At the time these statues were erected, an interracial society with whites and blacks living side by side and interacting (what we have today in many parts of the country) was inconceivable to most Southerners and many Americans in the rest of the country. Communities where it was reached were threatened with destruction and occasionally actually destroyed (Wilmington, N.C.). It was also hard for many people to get their minds around the idea of Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and people from Italy, Serbia, Japan, or China living together peaceably and even intermarrying. Increasingly, this is not only thinkable but also actually the case, not only with national origin and religion but also with race.
But our ideas and conceptions lag behind. The "good" blacks that many whites know are seen as exceptions to the general essence of blacks, and even as the number of known exceptions rises the essence still prevails.
But our ideas and conceptions lag behind. The "good" blacks that many whites know are seen as exceptions to the general essence of blacks, and even as the number of known exceptions rises the essence still prevails.
4
While we are at it, let's get rid of the Roman Arch of Titus, which honored the Emperor's sacking of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
History happened. Usually it is written by the victors, but it happened.
History happened. Usually it is written by the victors, but it happened.
4
To be analogous, Rome would have to build a arch commemorating the destruction of Jerusalem in 1950, and then have conservative, imperial sympathetic Romans announce that it wasn't really commemorating the destruction of Jerusalem, but the bravery and patriotism of Romans, and that any refusal to allow the arch to stand was tantamount to erasing history and hey what about the Pyramids what about them tear them down next?
3
For those who feel that Confederate monuments are simply a celebration of heritage, I can’t help but wonder if they’d be bothered if, for example, a Muslim extremist group erected a monument for the 9/11 hijackers in the town square. Maybe some of the hijackers were fine people… at least their families might have thought so. They might claim they’re celebrating the hijackers for their love of family. But no matter how you defend it, the only reason they’re known is for their criminal acts.
As for shared heritage… 9/11 certainly counts. Confederate monuments celebrate those who committed a crime against our country. No matter how you try to justify it, celebrating people for acts they’ve committed against our country makes no sense and causes pain for many people.
As for shared heritage… 9/11 certainly counts. Confederate monuments celebrate those who committed a crime against our country. No matter how you try to justify it, celebrating people for acts they’ve committed against our country makes no sense and causes pain for many people.
11
I wish reporters would ask these people defending Jim Crow era statues a few history questions when they talk to them. Most of these people could probably NOT tell you when the Civil War was even fought but act like it is central to their way of life.
The story last week about some guy in yes, Delaware, of all places who suddenly was crying about the confederate flag probably knows ZERO about the war. These guys whining about flags should get down to Texas and help people clean up after Harvey or show up once Florida is blown away- do something real.
The story last week about some guy in yes, Delaware, of all places who suddenly was crying about the confederate flag probably knows ZERO about the war. These guys whining about flags should get down to Texas and help people clean up after Harvey or show up once Florida is blown away- do something real.
8
I was born in Charlottesville; my father was a University employee. But he was a native of Brooklyn, and his parents had arrived at Ellis Island in 1898, themselves fleeing a kind of chattel existence as Old World peasants.
My mother's family were abolitionist Germans from Ohio. My parents, both US Army, "met cute" in London during the Blitz. To point to the obvious: my ancestors did not partake in the spoils of Old South slavery, nor defend it in any way.
The ubiquitous Confederate statues and "Lee Highways" of the Virginia of my childhood and youth were just furniture, as devoid of oppressive meaning as the acorn-laden oak tree down the street or the mailbox on the corner. I think the hapless city council that originally voted to let the Lee statue remain probably had a similar thought process -- this is just a piece of the landscape, and of history, like Monticello. We wouldn't think of demolishing Monticello because of Jefferson's sins, or would we?
Yet I'm berated on a daily basis in what passes for "intellectual journalism" with my imputed privilege, as though I personally flaunt the whips and leg irons that make black and brown people feel "unsafe." I must abase myself before every other ostensibly historically oppressed identity group.
It all starts to feel artificial and superficial, and frankly, it's exhausting.
Roger Cohen, as an Oxford man, should have a better sense of the scholarly uses of history than the quarter-educated mobs and bloggers.
My mother's family were abolitionist Germans from Ohio. My parents, both US Army, "met cute" in London during the Blitz. To point to the obvious: my ancestors did not partake in the spoils of Old South slavery, nor defend it in any way.
The ubiquitous Confederate statues and "Lee Highways" of the Virginia of my childhood and youth were just furniture, as devoid of oppressive meaning as the acorn-laden oak tree down the street or the mailbox on the corner. I think the hapless city council that originally voted to let the Lee statue remain probably had a similar thought process -- this is just a piece of the landscape, and of history, like Monticello. We wouldn't think of demolishing Monticello because of Jefferson's sins, or would we?
Yet I'm berated on a daily basis in what passes for "intellectual journalism" with my imputed privilege, as though I personally flaunt the whips and leg irons that make black and brown people feel "unsafe." I must abase myself before every other ostensibly historically oppressed identity group.
It all starts to feel artificial and superficial, and frankly, it's exhausting.
Roger Cohen, as an Oxford man, should have a better sense of the scholarly uses of history than the quarter-educated mobs and bloggers.
8
Isn't a museum the universal choice of all of us who wish the statues removed from places of public honor? Isn't "don't erase history" merely the disingenuous position of the people who want the history of the civil war rewritten?
IMO nothing said by anyone since Mayor Landrieu's speech on the subject added anything. Debate's over. Let's vote in our towns and counties about the use of public land.
IMO nothing said by anyone since Mayor Landrieu's speech on the subject added anything. Debate's over. Let's vote in our towns and counties about the use of public land.
4
Here is an idea, resurrect separate but equal. For every statue of the traitors Lee and Jackson and the war criminal Forrest, require a statue of those Southerners who were not traitors, Sherman and Thomas. Also both were far better generals than Robert E., who was fine as a corps commander, but whose ignorance of strategic issues doomed the Confederacy when the Confederacy had all the advantages on its side.
3
Thomas was a native Virginian who remained faithful to the Union and performed brilliantly, known today as the "Rock of Chicamagua". The brilliant Sherman was from Ohio.
I am confused. From what I had read most of those statues were erected in 20th century as a particularly obnoxious way to further oppress and alienate black people.
I think it's fair to have a debate about removal of a confederate statue whose reason for existence is a genuine desire to preserve history. But I seriously doubt there are many of those. After all, if you want to remember the history, why not have statues to Frederick Douglas, or Frances Harper, or Harriet Tubman next to the confederate ones? Preferably showing their middle finger to robert e lee and his ilk.
I think it's fair to have a debate about removal of a confederate statue whose reason for existence is a genuine desire to preserve history. But I seriously doubt there are many of those. After all, if you want to remember the history, why not have statues to Frederick Douglas, or Frances Harper, or Harriet Tubman next to the confederate ones? Preferably showing their middle finger to robert e lee and his ilk.
14
In the past, when one people conquered another, the first thing they did was either destroy, tear down, or otherwise damage the monuments and statues of the conquered people, which is the reason, for instance, why the ancient statue of the Venus De Milo has no arms, and many other ancient statues have no heads. This was done to humiliate the conquered people, to let them know in no uncertain terms that they were powerless to do anything about it. Statues and monuments are also destroyed during revolutions, as they were when the USSR fell, or when Saddam Hussein was overthrown, his statue was toppled to humiliate the people who supported him - and who now apparently form the core of ISIS.
So, the question on why these monuments in the south are being destroyed is why? Those promoting their destruction claim to be doing so to end hate, and yet it seems clear, and especially from many of the comments that it's being done out of hate. The other question is whether or not it's being done for the ancient purpose - to humiliate the white people of the south living today? It seems pretty clear that this is a motive, too. And whether you agree or disagree with their removal, nothing good is going to come of it, because the motives of those demanding their removal are also grounded in hate - and those you humiliate today will never be your friends - although it is fairly obvious that those who hate them don't want their friendship, either. So, good luck living as enemies.
So, the question on why these monuments in the south are being destroyed is why? Those promoting their destruction claim to be doing so to end hate, and yet it seems clear, and especially from many of the comments that it's being done out of hate. The other question is whether or not it's being done for the ancient purpose - to humiliate the white people of the south living today? It seems pretty clear that this is a motive, too. And whether you agree or disagree with their removal, nothing good is going to come of it, because the motives of those demanding their removal are also grounded in hate - and those you humiliate today will never be your friends - although it is fairly obvious that those who hate them don't want their friendship, either. So, good luck living as enemies.
4
"
So, the question on why these monuments in the south are being destroyed is why? Those promoting their destruction claim to be doing so to end hate, and yet it seems clear, and especially from many of the comments that it's being done out of hate. The other question is whether or not it's being done for the ancient purpose - to humiliate the white people of the south living today? It seems pretty clear that this is a motive, too. "
Exactly ... its done to humiliate white people who don't note left wing.
So, the question on why these monuments in the south are being destroyed is why? Those promoting their destruction claim to be doing so to end hate, and yet it seems clear, and especially from many of the comments that it's being done out of hate. The other question is whether or not it's being done for the ancient purpose - to humiliate the white people of the south living today? It seems pretty clear that this is a motive, too. "
Exactly ... its done to humiliate white people who don't note left wing.
You argue that the real reason the confederate statues are being removed is to "humiliate the white people of the south living today", and the motives are "grounded in hate". You have it backwards. The statues were erected "in hate" by the white people living in the former confederate states with a motive to intimidate and suppress their former slaves. The people living in the south actuallly being "humiliated"by the statues are the millions of black people who still live there. Moreover, this humiliation had to be endured for decades , and in some cases since the late 19th century. And something good has already come of it, because we are having a national discussion that should have taken place long ago.
5
Most of those statues were erected to ensure blacks knew their place and that the fact that the South may have lost the Civil War and blacks were freed wasn't going to change the established Southern social order of White Supremacy. The fact that no white person of authority in the South has heretofore thought about erecting any monuments at all to commemorate the suffering of enslaved blacks or Southern Blacks who fought for their freedom and abolition, or to later blacks who fought against Jim Crow and Segregation speaks volumes about the widespread denial of the evil inflicted on one race by another.
1
These statues are not history, they are half truths. Yes, the Confederate armies gave a noble effort for their cause. And yes, those statues pay homage to their sacrifices. What is missing is the awful reason that they fought that war in the first place. Where are the statues of the slaves? Where are the monuments to the people who were the labor force, who had to endure families being ripped apart, to the overseers lash, to the endless toil in the southern summer sun? That's as much, or more, an integral part of the disaster of 1861-65 as the South's fight to the finish.
11
What do we chose to remember. Whom do we select to honor? How do we identify ourselves—to ourselves, our fellow citizens, our fellow humans? Does a community not have the right to make different choices in 2017 than those made in 1920?
Each of us has (at least) 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, 16 great great grandparents, etc. Why do we focus on the one or two that fought, or may have fought, for the Confederacy? What do we know about all of our ancestors? And what prevents us from identifying with those who are not related to us "by blood?"
America can be saved not be fine-tuning our racial language, but by breaking it all together. Even as individuals, we are not as homogeneous as we pretend. History lives in us in different ways, and we change based on our awareness.
I'd love to see a statue or two or thirty in honor of Americans who bore the true burden of slavery. And I'd love to see a growing understanding of the burdens those of African heritage still carry to this day. I don't need to see any more statues of those who fought to perpetuate the enslavement of the Americans with whom, despite my mostly European ancestry, I choose to admire and seek to emulate. When I go up to Monticello, I do not feel compelled to cast myself back in history as a slave owner. I am a human from another time. I chose to remember the enslaved.
Each of us has (at least) 2 parents, 4 grandparents, 8 great grandparents, 16 great great grandparents, etc. Why do we focus on the one or two that fought, or may have fought, for the Confederacy? What do we know about all of our ancestors? And what prevents us from identifying with those who are not related to us "by blood?"
America can be saved not be fine-tuning our racial language, but by breaking it all together. Even as individuals, we are not as homogeneous as we pretend. History lives in us in different ways, and we change based on our awareness.
I'd love to see a statue or two or thirty in honor of Americans who bore the true burden of slavery. And I'd love to see a growing understanding of the burdens those of African heritage still carry to this day. I don't need to see any more statues of those who fought to perpetuate the enslavement of the Americans with whom, despite my mostly European ancestry, I choose to admire and seek to emulate. When I go up to Monticello, I do not feel compelled to cast myself back in history as a slave owner. I am a human from another time. I chose to remember the enslaved.
4
My paternal grandfather was a British private who shared at least three battlefields with Winston Churchill in the Sudan and South Africa.
What the South seems to forget is that they were traitors to the USA. They were forgiven by Lincoln who tried to finance their reconstruction. Lee led the traitors along with other Generals. To me they should never have statues erected to them. The North won,the South lost deal with it.
13
Your post illustrates the ignorance typical of many whose grasp of American history is limited.
Reconstruction was AFTER Lincoln had been shot.
Given his loyalty to his homeland Virginia, Lee would have been a traitor had he assumed command of the Federal forces.
There are many fine books about "The War."
Why not read a few?
Reconstruction was AFTER Lincoln had been shot.
Given his loyalty to his homeland Virginia, Lee would have been a traitor had he assumed command of the Federal forces.
There are many fine books about "The War."
Why not read a few?
I'm glad to parts of Europe have owned up to their role in the holocaust. It doesn't seem to have impacted the Islamic population which is promoting the resurgence of anti-semitism in Europe. Then again the Islamic world, led by the Palestinian Mufti were supporters of Hitler (Google 'Mufti-Hitler), there were concentration camps in North Africa, mentioned in the movie Casablanca. The Muslim/Arab world has never admitted to themselves their supporting role in the Holocaust.
I was at the Slave Market in Charleston, very moving. We need more of these memorials and museums, especially in the South which is still in denial about their role in promoting slavery.
I was at the Slave Market in Charleston, very moving. We need more of these memorials and museums, especially in the South which is still in denial about their role in promoting slavery.
2
This editorial was about slavery in the United States, not the anti-semitism of some Muslims. If concentration camps in North Africa are somehow appropriate material, the writer should ascribe them correctly to the Pagans and Catholics of Europe; that is to the Germans and Vichy French. The Muslims of North Africa were under occupation and had no voice in policy. Get real!
5
Jeremy: it was Mr. Cohen in his article who brought up the Holocaust, therefore it is logical to talk about that analogy.
Well now, imagine that everywhere you went in Germany, outside the municipal governments, the courthouses, you found manly statues of Rommel, Guderian, Paulus, and the like. Wouldn't you sort of think that there might be a dark side to the nominal commitment to democratic pluralism?
11
"...to be not three-fifths of a human being but human beings in full."
This reflects a common misunderstanding. It was white southern slave holders who insisted on slaves being counted at all. Their purpose was to increase their states' representation in Congress. The only actual value they placed on black people was as laborers and rape vessels.
This reflects a common misunderstanding. It was white southern slave holders who insisted on slaves being counted at all. Their purpose was to increase their states' representation in Congress. The only actual value they placed on black people was as laborers and rape vessels.
7
The photograph is of Robert E Lee at Lee Circle in New Orleans. I spent a lifetime driving past that statue, and others, never noticing them. But once I learned the trickery they were, that the statues themselves are revisionist history, I saw why they have no place in any town square. Lets get them down while the impetus us there, theyve been up too long!
Confederate graveyards are mentioned as good places for said statues. It seems appropriate. The town square is better occupied by art that doesn't depict traitors to the Republic. Lee should have hung for his crimes, so why is he memorialized?
I'm an eighth generation planter in the Deep South. Its a living. But all I can see of the myths that white supremacists and nationalists push is a huge albatross around this nations neck. We need to go into a future that takes us further from the dark ages of ante bellum America. Dragging this baggage with us will prevent us getting there. Try to remember, the Lost Cause is about ignorant and superstitious people who had no sewerage or indoor plumbing, no idea what caused disease, no science, short on rational thought cause they drank liquor instead of the dirty water available. Not role models for 2017.
Confederate graveyards are mentioned as good places for said statues. It seems appropriate. The town square is better occupied by art that doesn't depict traitors to the Republic. Lee should have hung for his crimes, so why is he memorialized?
I'm an eighth generation planter in the Deep South. Its a living. But all I can see of the myths that white supremacists and nationalists push is a huge albatross around this nations neck. We need to go into a future that takes us further from the dark ages of ante bellum America. Dragging this baggage with us will prevent us getting there. Try to remember, the Lost Cause is about ignorant and superstitious people who had no sewerage or indoor plumbing, no idea what caused disease, no science, short on rational thought cause they drank liquor instead of the dirty water available. Not role models for 2017.
13
The enslavement of black Africans happened even as the native population was being exterminated. The end of slavery did not save the Indians, whose eradication continued. The US is founded on two great sins.
10
How many statues does the United States have to traitors who weren't part of the Civil War? Benedict Arnold comes to mind. He was a brilliant General and socially well connected. He was also a traitor to his country. His history resembles that of confederate generals. How many statues of Benedict Arnold have been erected? One. And it is only of his leg. That seems to be an appropriate way to commemorate traitors.
6
Irene: Wrong! Benedict Arnold was technically a (belated) loyalist. People like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Benjamin Franklin were the traitors as they were rebelling against their sovereign, King George. Had the thirteen colonies lost the American Revolution (notice the noun: revolution), these so-called patriots and founding fathers would have been hanged. Human experience has shown us time and time again that the winners write the history books, so take what you know for sure with a grain of salt.
4
Have you read the deal he made with the British? Was he a general in the Continental army? He was loyal to no one.
The South is locked in the past. Education and learning are something to avoid, and are the tools of the Devil. It is amplified in the Southern Baptist religion. The Bible is the literal inerrant word of God. The Universe was created in six days less than ten thousand years ago. Blacks are descended from the vilified Ham.
A native of western NY, I experienced these truths while stationed in the segregated South of the late 50s and early 60s. Except for race and religion, the South is generally friendly and helpful, as long as you are white. I would bet if LBJs civil rights were put to the vote today, it would not be approved. This is why we, as Americans, are very divided.
A native of western NY, I experienced these truths while stationed in the segregated South of the late 50s and early 60s. Except for race and religion, the South is generally friendly and helpful, as long as you are white. I would bet if LBJs civil rights were put to the vote today, it would not be approved. This is why we, as Americans, are very divided.
11
There's something monstrous at the heart of our American heritage. Slavery and eradicating Native Americans was horrible enough, but the brutal murdering of these groups of people was considered good, old-fashioned fun for the whole family. Children attended lynchings and bonfires where blacks were burned to death, even after slavery had been outlawed.
The problem with considering it all in the past is that it isn't. The mere threat of removing statues memorializing the heroes of a failed revolution has brought out the Confederate flag in droves, even up in the northern state of Michigan, which fought for the Union.
What heritage are you celebrating when you were born in the North, but wave a Confederate flag? The heritage that says you are innately superior to your fellow man.
This heritage rears its ugly head in legislation to kick Dreamers out of the only country they've ever known, despite meeting the rigorous standards required by the American government to stay; the goal to ban immigration from certain Muslim countries, including refugees fleeing certain death; banning transgendered soldiers from the Armed Forces despite meeting all requirements, and so much more.
We can take down the monuments and sweep the Nazis back under the rug, but the truth remains loud and clear, even in polite society: white Americans believe they are superior to everyone else and will not hesitate to stand on the back of anyone else to succeed.
The problem with considering it all in the past is that it isn't. The mere threat of removing statues memorializing the heroes of a failed revolution has brought out the Confederate flag in droves, even up in the northern state of Michigan, which fought for the Union.
What heritage are you celebrating when you were born in the North, but wave a Confederate flag? The heritage that says you are innately superior to your fellow man.
This heritage rears its ugly head in legislation to kick Dreamers out of the only country they've ever known, despite meeting the rigorous standards required by the American government to stay; the goal to ban immigration from certain Muslim countries, including refugees fleeing certain death; banning transgendered soldiers from the Armed Forces despite meeting all requirements, and so much more.
We can take down the monuments and sweep the Nazis back under the rug, but the truth remains loud and clear, even in polite society: white Americans believe they are superior to everyone else and will not hesitate to stand on the back of anyone else to succeed.
9
Leave the statues. All of them. Change the plaques that describe what these people really did, e.g., "Jefferson Davis was the leader of a confederation of states that perpetrated an act of treason against the United States of America and sought to maintain the slavery of human beings in perpetuity..."
5
Interestingly, the monument at Davis' gravesite in Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond lists all his US offices (Army officer, senator, secretary of war, etc.) but not his office as President of the CSA.
I doubt that Germany has statues of Adolf Eichmann, Josef Goebbles, Mengele or any other mainstays of the Nazi regime. Yet we know of them through the history taught to us. The same can apply to the Confederate statues erected and standing today. Take them down but remember your history.
4
"It is hard and painful to refute your ancestry, disentangle individual honor from a lost and morally indefensible cause like that of the Confederacy."
Was it morally justifiable to kill 2 million Vietnamese –– most of them citizens –– in a conflict whose cause, “The Domino Theory," has been refuted over and over.
But do we dishonor those soldiers, remove the Vietnam War Memorial?
Of course not, but that war and quite a few others since were fought under false pretenses.
Roger Cohen is right –– our history is not a fairytale, in which right and good always triumph.
We need to examine and re-examine all of it –– and as we do, confront our many shadows. It's time to face the music.
A shadow denied will haunt and haunt forever.
Was it morally justifiable to kill 2 million Vietnamese –– most of them citizens –– in a conflict whose cause, “The Domino Theory," has been refuted over and over.
But do we dishonor those soldiers, remove the Vietnam War Memorial?
Of course not, but that war and quite a few others since were fought under false pretenses.
Roger Cohen is right –– our history is not a fairytale, in which right and good always triumph.
We need to examine and re-examine all of it –– and as we do, confront our many shadows. It's time to face the music.
A shadow denied will haunt and haunt forever.
6
To attempt to nazify men who fought for their country (Tennessee, Texas, Virginia was 'their country' as they understood it) is not getting history right; it is distorting it to suit one's own prejudices. Two thirds of those clamoring for these statues to be removed couldn't place the Civil War within a half century of when it happened. Slavery was a great evil, but the great majority of those honored didn't own slaves. They did however own fidelity, for which they are remembered.
8
Not having a public monument is not the same as being called a nazi.
There will never be a monument to me at city hall, and all it means is that I'm not so much better than everyone else. Same with CSA generals.
There will never be a monument to me at city hall, and all it means is that I'm not so much better than everyone else. Same with CSA generals.
5
They may not have owned slaves themselves, but they killed and died to make sure others can. How is that better?
By that logic, let's celebrate hitler because some nazi soldiers didn't kill any jews?
By that logic, let's celebrate hitler because some nazi soldiers didn't kill any jews?
6
They fought to defend slavery. That is not something to celebrate.
1
Christopher Dickey's "Our Man in Charleston" contains a collection of quotes by many South Carolina public figures in the Civil War and pre-Civil War years that are similar to and often far worse than that Mr. Cohen attributes to Alexander Stephens in this article. I think it is a serious mischaracterization to say that scrubbing the landscape clean of these venerated Confederate relics amounts to "erasing history."
3
I don't understand why it is that those various Presidents who were slave-holders get a free pass on their actual history. When Trump came out with his "what's next, Washington & Jefferson," I say take him up on that. Washington not only got rich off of slavery, but his family, including the man himself, took a very active part in genocide against the Native Americans of his day. He earned a nickname, "destroyer of villages." He got his military training in the French & Indian War. Yes, that's a legacy to be proud of, NOT. Instead, we tell our school children some fairy tale about throwing a silver dollar across the Potomac. Once one gets to the banks of the Potomac, one begins to wonder what other lies we were told.
3
Given the fact that the statues (and highways etc) were all raised well after the end of the Civil War - in the full flower of Jim Crow - the context for any discussion of whether/how to commemorate "heroes of the lost cause" (also clearly understood as traitors) or even "Confederate valor," as Cohen states it, needs to include the very public service of the monuments to mark white power, to intimidate, to warn and oppress the non-white population. Why would any rational human today want to commemorate this pathological behavior, must less allow such stelai to stand?
8
Odd how most opinion columns on this issue state that the statues do not accurately represent history yet complain that removing them somehow is a denial of that same history.
Remove them. They do not represent our history. They represent a singularity. A rebellion to preserve immorality (slavery). Statues to others like Columbus do not represent a similar singularity,
Remove them. They do not represent our history. They represent a singularity. A rebellion to preserve immorality (slavery). Statues to others like Columbus do not represent a similar singularity,
3
Roger Cohen gets a good part of the hidden truths of American history right.
The Civil War was about slavery, but the great ideologue of the South, who laid the future ground work for the great cover story: it wasn't about slavery, which was a positive good, said John C. Calhoun, it was about overwhelming federal power and state's rights.
The same evolution can be found in the public trajectory of George Wallace, who stopped shouting the "N" word and instead railed against the federal government's intrusions into state matters.
When I write about the "Southernization" of American politics, a term introduced by historian Dan Carter, I also have something else in mind: that the solid Republican Right South which went for Goldwater, and Trump, who actually ran on Wallace's and Reagan's electoral college strategy, I mean the alliance of ideology where Southern meets corporate Neoliberal, joined in an anti-government, anti-regulatory, anti-environmental embrace, and throw in anti-tax and pro-military, pro-law and order in the distorted meaning of those directions in the hands of the Right.
It all rests on distorting what the South was like during the post-Civil War years, and burying the best legacies of the New Deal, which the South stopped supporting by 1938.
The Civil War was about slavery, but the great ideologue of the South, who laid the future ground work for the great cover story: it wasn't about slavery, which was a positive good, said John C. Calhoun, it was about overwhelming federal power and state's rights.
The same evolution can be found in the public trajectory of George Wallace, who stopped shouting the "N" word and instead railed against the federal government's intrusions into state matters.
When I write about the "Southernization" of American politics, a term introduced by historian Dan Carter, I also have something else in mind: that the solid Republican Right South which went for Goldwater, and Trump, who actually ran on Wallace's and Reagan's electoral college strategy, I mean the alliance of ideology where Southern meets corporate Neoliberal, joined in an anti-government, anti-regulatory, anti-environmental embrace, and throw in anti-tax and pro-military, pro-law and order in the distorted meaning of those directions in the hands of the Right.
It all rests on distorting what the South was like during the post-Civil War years, and burying the best legacies of the New Deal, which the South stopped supporting by 1938.
3
The right has risen up to control the very same government that they've spent the several decades denigrating as the source of all evil. Sort of like the character in a movie who wrests the gun out of his enemy's hand only to discover it has no bullets. The right controls the agenda, but still is losing all the battles. Confederate statues, loved by the right, are coming down one after another. Obamacare, hated by the right, is still here and showing little sign of going away. Getting rid of DACA is almost sure to backfire.
The right gained the reins of government, but it has given them little, because since Reagan they've been starving the horse.
The right gained the reins of government, but it has given them little, because since Reagan they've been starving the horse.
6
Remove these statues from public spaces. Teach in schools the truth about various articles of secession and that the Civil War was about slavery and not "State rights" or "a way of life". Whether they go to a museum or are just melted for metal is not as important as acknowledging the truth and bringing forward the truth about lynchings, as well.
39
Possibly the reevaluation of American myth making needs to go back to the revolution. The revolution was not really about liberty and freedom from tyranny, look at Canada not too much tyranny on display. What lay behind it was the desire for rich colonists to exploit native lands beyond a British frontier that was perceived as holding back the development of America.
The founders exploited an amateurish British government's mistakes to push through an unnecessary war of independence.
The founders exploited an amateurish British government's mistakes to push through an unnecessary war of independence.
1
Revolutionary war as also about preserving slavery. And Mexican-American war was about expanding slavery on the continent.
Perhaps the statues would be placed in the proper context if they were put in glass cases at the National Museum of African American History, the way Nazi relics are often used to explain the crimes of the Holocaust. They could be displayed in such a way that their usage as tools of denial would be easily understood.
4
As usual, great work Mr. Cohen. I understand that reasonable minds can differ, but I don't get the southern (or white) mindset here. How can anyone celebrate the kidnapping, murder, rape and enslavement of 12 million people forcibly brought to America? How can they do that?
3
Because as Stephen Foster put it: way down south in the land o' cotton, old times there are not forgotten.
The south seceded because their demands to expand slavery into the western territories and through conquest in the Caribbean were rejected by the north. Their "peculiar institution" enabled an economy and social order somewhat analogous to how the nazis used slave labor during WWII. Both the southern slave owning culture and the nazis believed deeply that theirs was the superior race, destined to rule lesser forms of people.
The south and its latter day social allies elsewhere in our country have never reconciled that their Confederate ancestors were the moral equivalent of nazis.
The north was motivated to oppose the continuation of slavery because of Christian faith, enlightenment ideals, and political considerations. Northerners did not for the most part regard the slaves or freedmen as their peers in terms of a civilized people able to add value to their society. But they did commit hundreds of thousands of lives to defeat and end the institution.
The statues constructed by the defeated south to commemorate their fallen generals in the post Confederacy were basically intended as a middle finger salute to those who defeated them. Passive defiance nursing damaged collective egos.
The statues should go. Certainly off of public properties. The military bases named after the Confederate traitors should be renamed; the federal government has that authority. These actions should be taken.
The south and its latter day social allies elsewhere in our country have never reconciled that their Confederate ancestors were the moral equivalent of nazis.
The north was motivated to oppose the continuation of slavery because of Christian faith, enlightenment ideals, and political considerations. Northerners did not for the most part regard the slaves or freedmen as their peers in terms of a civilized people able to add value to their society. But they did commit hundreds of thousands of lives to defeat and end the institution.
The statues constructed by the defeated south to commemorate their fallen generals in the post Confederacy were basically intended as a middle finger salute to those who defeated them. Passive defiance nursing damaged collective egos.
The statues should go. Certainly off of public properties. The military bases named after the Confederate traitors should be renamed; the federal government has that authority. These actions should be taken.
9
Perfectly said!
By removing the statues you can never resolve the conundrum --how leading, respected citizens in the Confederacy, in the north and in much of the world could condone slavery when it is today a crime against humanity.
No resolution, no meaningful debate, no learning moment can result from removing statues.
Contextualization is far superior. Every statue should be endowed with a prominent plaque questioning how this illustrious individual could fight for slavery. Debunk the post-war Southern myth that this was about State's Rights. Explain that over 700,000 combatants were killed--more than both world wars, Vietnam and Korea casualties--and 50,000 civilians. Talk to the point that as many as a third (?) of southerners (and many northerners) had slaves but King Cotton plantation owners were the main culprits. And that 7 million (?) were brought to our shores, a veritable African holocaust. Speak of slaves' extraordinarily cruel treatment. Talk to the evils and abuses of Reconstruction, post-Reconstruction oppression, the debilitating legacy of racism and that these statues were intended to defend white power. That Hitler drew inspiration from America's racial policies.
Then circle back to the main questions: How could statues be erected in America for (and by) persons who celebrated slavery and oppression? How should we deal with these monuments? What are we doing today that contradicts fundamental American and universal values?
...a learning moment!...
No resolution, no meaningful debate, no learning moment can result from removing statues.
Contextualization is far superior. Every statue should be endowed with a prominent plaque questioning how this illustrious individual could fight for slavery. Debunk the post-war Southern myth that this was about State's Rights. Explain that over 700,000 combatants were killed--more than both world wars, Vietnam and Korea casualties--and 50,000 civilians. Talk to the point that as many as a third (?) of southerners (and many northerners) had slaves but King Cotton plantation owners were the main culprits. And that 7 million (?) were brought to our shores, a veritable African holocaust. Speak of slaves' extraordinarily cruel treatment. Talk to the evils and abuses of Reconstruction, post-Reconstruction oppression, the debilitating legacy of racism and that these statues were intended to defend white power. That Hitler drew inspiration from America's racial policies.
Then circle back to the main questions: How could statues be erected in America for (and by) persons who celebrated slavery and oppression? How should we deal with these monuments? What are we doing today that contradicts fundamental American and universal values?
...a learning moment!...
4
History should be preserved. The authentic history of any memorial should include the words of installation designating the memorial's meaning. I would support the material symbols of these Confederate heroes being preserved in museums with the words of installation spoken at their erection. This way, we will preserve their real meaning and not some interpretation recently concocted to soften the noxious ideology that gave them birth.
1
We could look to Europe for ideas about how to handle art created during times of violence and turmoil. I especially appreciated the way Budapest handled its communist history. In the center of the city they have the aptly named Terror Museum, which shows how communism tore apart the lives of citizens. Then an hour's bus ride outside the city, they have a simple park (almost just a field) full of communist sculptures with short descriptions of their context. People who were personally terrorized by communism never have to see them, but people who want to access that part of history are able to do so.
Civil War monuments are now less about the War itself and more about America's enduring struggle with racism. They lessons they can teach us may be more about the lingering effects Jim Crow and modern institutional racism, which are both very relevant right now.
Civil War monuments are now less about the War itself and more about America's enduring struggle with racism. They lessons they can teach us may be more about the lingering effects Jim Crow and modern institutional racism, which are both very relevant right now.
24
In Germany, all signs of its Nazi past has been relegated to museums, since any kind of statue or paraphernalia is strictly forbidden by law -- which is why you'll never see a flag with a Swastika on it at any kind of public demonstration.
Apparently it will be a long time before this country gets that far.
Apparently it will be a long time before this country gets that far.
If you want to look to Europe, look to Spain. It is 2017. Franco died, peacefully and in his bed, in 1975. Streets, squares, monuments--public spaces all--still bear the names of his murderous, fascist cohorts. Removing them is a de facto cause for a toxic response from supporters of the winning side of the 1936-9 civil war, despite a largely ineffectual 2007 law requiring such memorializing instances to be removed. So there you have it: a civil war and the prolongued struggle over who gets to do what with the past. My view: the same as Lonnie Bunch's. Do not erase history: teach it, contextualize it and, where necessary, confine it to museums, not public spaces. Tell the truth.
Unfortunately, Budapest (Hungary) hasn't handled its fascist history, as part of the Axis with Nazi Germany and Mussolini's Italy, nearly as well. Over 500.000 Hungarian Jews lost their lives during WW2. Many of them were killed by their fellow Hungarians, well before the first German tanks rolled in over the Hungarian border.
This is something which has been whitewashed by the current Hungarian government, who pretend to be victims of Nazi Germany, rather than the willing collaborators, which they actually were.
This is something which has been whitewashed by the current Hungarian government, who pretend to be victims of Nazi Germany, rather than the willing collaborators, which they actually were.
Perhaps all monuments are not created equal. Does discrediting the symbol of a leader of the rebellion (e.g. Jefferson Davis, Nathan Bedford Forest, Robert E. Lee, etc) belong in the same category as discrediting a symbol of the plight of the common Confederate soldier? That's a pretty broad brush.
The Confederate soldier cannot be described by a blanket rationale that they fought to defend slavery. The vast majority were not slave owners without deep-seated views on it. In north Alabama , few people owned slaves and they elected ANTI-secession delegates to the state convention. When it happened, they tried to establish the 'Free State of Winston' and secede from the Confederacy. When war came they still signed up to fight, although many were drafted. Their reasons were as varied as their backgrounds - pride, fear, anger, etc. These didn't make them White Supremacists. Many reasons can be summed up in the Shelby Foote anecdote: Union soldiers asked a captured Confederate why he fought so hard. He answered, 'Because you're down here.'
That doesn't change that they were fighting for a treasonous purpose. But, it begs the question of how we might honor their bravery without honoring the Confederacy itself. Charity for all and malice toward none - Lincoln. 'Tis a quandary.
Finally, what is the objective of destroying ALL monuments? What will have been accomplished? Revengeful satisfaction? Selective actions are needed, not just destruction in lemming-like mob rule.
The Confederate soldier cannot be described by a blanket rationale that they fought to defend slavery. The vast majority were not slave owners without deep-seated views on it. In north Alabama , few people owned slaves and they elected ANTI-secession delegates to the state convention. When it happened, they tried to establish the 'Free State of Winston' and secede from the Confederacy. When war came they still signed up to fight, although many were drafted. Their reasons were as varied as their backgrounds - pride, fear, anger, etc. These didn't make them White Supremacists. Many reasons can be summed up in the Shelby Foote anecdote: Union soldiers asked a captured Confederate why he fought so hard. He answered, 'Because you're down here.'
That doesn't change that they were fighting for a treasonous purpose. But, it begs the question of how we might honor their bravery without honoring the Confederacy itself. Charity for all and malice toward none - Lincoln. 'Tis a quandary.
Finally, what is the objective of destroying ALL monuments? What will have been accomplished? Revengeful satisfaction? Selective actions are needed, not just destruction in lemming-like mob rule.
5
The reasons for removing the Confederate symbols are as clear as black and white.
2
There seem to be three histories. The first is slavery. The second, the 4 years of war to end it. The third, beginning with the failure of Reconstruction and lasting all the way to the 1970s, is the history of the Confederate monuments' oft-recurring defiant white stance. That in itself is the lesson in need of remembering here, for it is the third that is cause to the current problems related to Charlottesville. It is also the history of a time when America was fooling itself that is was more civilized and morally superior to the rest of the world (even while fighting a global war with a segregated military). This is the greater sin that persists because we are, or should be, wiser now.
3
I'm 68, and was living in Los Angeles. I remember the Centennial of the Civil War from 1961 to 1965. So I was 11 when the Centennial began. I remember that the true reason for the war was not promoted to me - it was sold as Yankees vs Rebels, a grand time was had by all. My eleven year old mind was sold on the Johnny Reb "lost cause" mystique, and I proudly wore a felt Confederate kepi that my folks bought at Disneyland. I can imagine Disney folks saying, "Don't talk about slavery, we can make some bucks selling this stuff." I am still blown away how my 11 year old self was so easily conned. With the collusion of my parents, of course.
4
I question the usefulness of history. Everybody makes up their own version. We never seem to learn from it. We dig it up and we weaponize it and point it at those that don't look, talk, act, breed like "us". Whether it is white, black, Asian, native American...whoever...history divides us. I think a little amnesia is what we need right now. We need to leave our ancestors in their graves.
If we keep looking back we won't see the train coming right at us. We need to focus on how to be better in the future and stop fighting wars that are over.
If we keep looking back we won't see the train coming right at us. We need to focus on how to be better in the future and stop fighting wars that are over.
1
Is it possible that the erection of many statues to the Confederacy were erected, in both Northern and Southern locations, not to memorialize cruelty, or to erase history, but to repair the unity of the United States?
The home of Robert E. Lee in Arlington, VA is a national memorial to the Confederate general. It is administered by the US Dept. of the Interior. These are our current federal agencies and in overseeing the preservation of the house, are they not assisting in putting the war and our shared history into consideration? Should this house be demolished because it may turn into a shrine for the neo-confederacy?
In our urge to dismantle "hate" whatever that means, are we not using the mystical methods of 2017, an era where debate only means that one side can speak the truth?
The current idea to take down the Confederate monuments started when Dylan Roof assassinated people at prayer in Charleston, SC. How much easier it is to take down statues he admired, than attack the violence at the center of American life, and the easy access to guns which makes mass murder so possible.
The home of Robert E. Lee in Arlington, VA is a national memorial to the Confederate general. It is administered by the US Dept. of the Interior. These are our current federal agencies and in overseeing the preservation of the house, are they not assisting in putting the war and our shared history into consideration? Should this house be demolished because it may turn into a shrine for the neo-confederacy?
In our urge to dismantle "hate" whatever that means, are we not using the mystical methods of 2017, an era where debate only means that one side can speak the truth?
The current idea to take down the Confederate monuments started when Dylan Roof assassinated people at prayer in Charleston, SC. How much easier it is to take down statues he admired, than attack the violence at the center of American life, and the easy access to guns which makes mass murder so possible.
2
No, that absolutely is not possible.
Tell the people who love those monuments that they can keep them if they give up their guns. I'm sure that will play to the target market.
Most of these statues were not erected to celebrate "Confederate valor." They were erected to remind black Americans of their place. The main period for the commissioning and erection of these statues was the 1920s, as Jim Crow became the unquestioned law of the land and the Ku Klux Klan marched openly in Washington during Presidential inaugurations, campaigned openly for candidates and nearly saw one of its own nominated by a major party. The main period for the renaming of public schools after Confederate figures was immediately after Brown v. Board of Ed came down. The commemorations were not intended to honor these Confederates for what they had done, but rather to remind black children that no matter what the Federal government or some Northern Liberals said, those children were not welcome in the schools, were not the equal of their white peers, were not equal in the eyes of Southern society.
There may be a handful of statues and commemorations that were erected honestly, and perhaps those should stand, albeit with updated signage to contextualize them. The rest of these propagandistic monuments should be torn down, and along with them the myth of the Lost Cause and the myth of the "ambiguity" of the Civil War.
There may be a handful of statues and commemorations that were erected honestly, and perhaps those should stand, albeit with updated signage to contextualize them. The rest of these propagandistic monuments should be torn down, and along with them the myth of the Lost Cause and the myth of the "ambiguity" of the Civil War.
8
Not even scratching the surface of our national horror show through history. Columbus was a slaver. How about all those blankets with smallpox virus given as "gifts" to the indigenous peoples here during the long genocide. We celebrate wrong headed ideals because history has been usurped by the powerful to dictate a false narrative. Well those once powerful are now beginning to finally crumble in the face of world wide access to actual history. Let there be light!
2
Put these statues in museums. Museums that make it very clear that the civil war was about slavery, about states wanting to exert their supposed "right" to allow slavery. If southerners want to celebrate or honor their "heritage" let them go to these museums to do so.
5
I've actually been antagonized for arguing exactly the point Lonnie Bunch just made. There is a legitimate argument for historical preservation. This has nothing to do with white supremacy or neo-nazis. The statues certainly don't belong in a public square open to hate rallies. However, they do tell a story. We might not like to hear the story but that doesn't diminish the story's significance. No one has bothered to inform the public where in fact the statues are going. To quote the cliche: "It belongs in a museum!" You might douse some of the vitriol surrounding the statues if you had a plan for their retirement first. Just a thought.
1
In every doctrine that promotes healing, whether it is religion, Eastern wisdom or psychoanalysis, the healing comes from facing the truth about self. There are terrible truths we whites must face about our history. North and South both profited from slavery. Slavery promoted conditions of unspeakable cruelty, so horrific that the descendants of slaves from hundreds of years ago still suffer from their own version of PTSD: a fear of white treachery that knows no bounds, the establishment of deep bonds within their own black communities that excludes whites from the deepest levels of trust, a knowing resignation at white resistance to the truth. Blacks stop talking and laughing together whenever a white enters their zone.
Will we do the same thing now, on different levels, to the Dreamers as we have done to our black neighbors for 5 centuries?
Will we do the same thing now, on different levels, to the Dreamers as we have done to our black neighbors for 5 centuries?
1
Simply put, this is a masterpiece. It ties together the painful historical facts and current issues in a way that bring clarity and understanding.
1
If we need our history then we need to be able to read about it as well. All American children should be required to read "Huckleberry Finn", "Tom Sawyer", "Uncle Tom's Cabin", the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence, "Black Boy", and other things that are important. The Constitution and the Declaration of Independence to some degree tell us who our Founding Fathers wanted us to be, what their ideals were. The books I mentioned use some words that people find offensive but that's not a good reason to ban them from the lists of books to read.
If we're going to teach students about slavery, the Civil War, Reconstruction, the Jim Crow laws, the rise of the Ku Klux Klan, we'd better make sure they understand the power of words for good and evil. And we should teach all students that no human being is property to be whipped, sold, or killed at someone's whim. The South did not win the Civil War. Yet the attitudes that precipitated it continue to exist as do the attitudes that helped get Trump into office. White supremacy is not a fact. Jews do not run the country. Blacks are not intellectually inferior. And Christians are not always charitable, tolerant, or accepting of others no matter what they claim to be.
We should be memorializing Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, George Washington Carver, Charles Drew, Mary McLeod Bethune. Instead we memorialize Ronald Reagan who did more damage to our economy with trickle down economics than the Civil War.
If we're going to teach students about slavery, the Civil War, Reconstruction, the Jim Crow laws, the rise of the Ku Klux Klan, we'd better make sure they understand the power of words for good and evil. And we should teach all students that no human being is property to be whipped, sold, or killed at someone's whim. The South did not win the Civil War. Yet the attitudes that precipitated it continue to exist as do the attitudes that helped get Trump into office. White supremacy is not a fact. Jews do not run the country. Blacks are not intellectually inferior. And Christians are not always charitable, tolerant, or accepting of others no matter what they claim to be.
We should be memorializing Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, George Washington Carver, Charles Drew, Mary McLeod Bethune. Instead we memorialize Ronald Reagan who did more damage to our economy with trickle down economics than the Civil War.
8
Proposed: Confederate monuments presently located on state, county, and city properties should be transferred to, and re-erected at, U.S. National Park Service Historical Battlefield Parks such as Gettysburg, Antietam, Manassas, Vicksburg, Shiloh, Chickamauga, and Stone’s River. A Confederate soldier statue from a small town that was home base to a particular regiment could be placed where that regiment actually was on a battlefield. Alternatively, special zones could be created along the edges of the parks to receive the refugee statues which could be packed tightly together to fit on the ground. Many have opined that the monuments should be displayed is such a way as to permit the full range of interpretive context. Placing them literally on the great battlefields of the Civil War will provide them with the most perfect interpretive context anyone could ask for.
1
Most of my ancestors fought for the Confederacy, but I have always thought Civil War statues should be relegated to Civil War battlefields and cemeteries. The National Park Service maintains most Civil War battlefield. Congress should fund NPS to accept or purchase statues. Instead of merely voting to remove statues, city council could vote to donate them to the NPS.
2
How about if we take care of the monuments already there? Many are at this moment unreadable. It was only 20 or 30 years ago that Disney wanted to build a theme park at Gettysburg. Civil War themed, but, really? They didn't see a problem as the National Park was in such shoddy condition. So take the offensive statues, warehouse them somewhere. Then spend money on the National Civil War Memorials. Spend the money & time finding out what they said, fix them. Then in a hundred years or so, take the deteriorated statues from the warehouse(s) & place them in context, in the memorials. Making sure that it is clear they were on the LOSING side. What they were really fighting for (slavery, not as in Lee's case, Virginia), should be plain & well documented with era memorabilia. Photos, bits of uniforms, weaponry.
If that lady doesn't like confederate soldiers (dug up during construction) being put in with American Soldiers, then let her buy land & replant them. Most American dead didn't get home to be buried. New England cemeteries have large plots with 'Memorial Stones'. Grave markers with no bodies underneath. Often all together. Others who had their own family plots put in memorial stones to their not forgotten Civil War dead. I would have taken those confederate remains & just put them out with the trash. At least they were reburied, not put on display in museums.
If that lady doesn't like confederate soldiers (dug up during construction) being put in with American Soldiers, then let her buy land & replant them. Most American dead didn't get home to be buried. New England cemeteries have large plots with 'Memorial Stones'. Grave markers with no bodies underneath. Often all together. Others who had their own family plots put in memorial stones to their not forgotten Civil War dead. I would have taken those confederate remains & just put them out with the trash. At least they were reburied, not put on display in museums.
1
And in addition to that, there should be room for such statues at the brand new Museum of African-American History and Culture in Washington D.C., where their acts would be put into the proper historical context.
Very nicely put, as always, Mr Cohen. A good part of our history consists of denying our own sins while amplifying those of other countries. Same as it ever was.
4
Good column. But shouldn't we also change the name of New York and the newspaper where you are employed? Both are named for a man who was key player in the slave trade. Without him and men like him the Confederacy would never have existed. James II, the Duke of York, headed the Royal African Company. In the 1680s the company was transporting about 5,000 slaves a year across the Atlantic. Many were branded with the letters "DY", for the Duke of York. Other slaves were branded with the company's initials, RAC, on their chests. Between 1672 and 1689, the Company transported 90,000 to 100,000 slaves. That seems like a good reason to consider renaming the city and the newspaper.
4
Are we a generation of total ignoramuses? Both those who want to destroy the statues and those who want to keep them act as if the men those statues represent were fighting in a war about nothing but slavery. History's a lot more complex than that: the reasons for the civil war have been debated ever since it began, and the reasons men like Lee fought for the south were also much more complex than a defense of slavery. This whole argument about statues is stupid. It was stupid when Serbia went to war with Bosnia because of the Kossovo battle hundreds of years before, and at a time when the most destructive President in our history is desperately trying to distract attention from his crimes, it's gratuitously idiotic to be carrying on anachronistically about statues that threaten no one.
4
If we want to remember how great the South was, we could have statues of slaves being whipped or the later ex slaves being hung by the neck until dead.
That wasn't what the Confederacy said it stood for, but it was what it did.
That wasn't what the Confederacy said it stood for, but it was what it did.
5
It bears mentioning that most of these statues were erected decades after the Civil War when most of the soldiers from it had died as you say in aid of masking the "terrible great truth of the Confederacy" to subjugate and roll back the gains of black people since emancipation and to gain political power in the nation again to impose their sick desires by stealth and misinformation.
The statues, every one of them, should be destroyed in public ceremonies. We don't need statues to cowardly evil men that some revere to remember the Confederacy and what it really stood for any more than we need a statue to remember that 2 + 2 = 4. In fact if we had more focus on the documents that show us what the Confederacy proudly stood for the discussion would not be so fraught or confused as everyone would know without doubt that all of them regardless of their personal beliefs or how well they treated friends and family fought for slavery and white supremacy.
The statues, every one of them, should be destroyed in public ceremonies. We don't need statues to cowardly evil men that some revere to remember the Confederacy and what it really stood for any more than we need a statue to remember that 2 + 2 = 4. In fact if we had more focus on the documents that show us what the Confederacy proudly stood for the discussion would not be so fraught or confused as everyone would know without doubt that all of them regardless of their personal beliefs or how well they treated friends and family fought for slavery and white supremacy.
2
Trump is so wrong about Robert E. Lee it is mind-boggling. Lee was a vicious racist who savored capturing escaped slaves and returning them to their owners. Lee is to African-Americans what Hitler is to Jews. No statue of anyone who promoted, supported, or defended the Confederacy should stand. The Confederacy was the essence of being anti-American.
4
One can only imagine the grief, pain and guilt that our descendants will have to bear when they finally come to terms with the 100 million Americans slaughtered in abortion clinics, and that number increases by over 1000 every day. The sin of slavery appears like a tiny spec of dust compared to this juggernaut. Each great injustice appears perfecty justifiable in its time. Only when future generations can lucidly look upon it, can the real atrocity of it all truly be seen.
2
@David
NO. There is absolutely no comparison between the inhuman institution of Slavery in this country, and those "slaughtered in abortion clinics".
But for you to better understand that, you'd need to be acquaintanted with the historical facts.
I suggest you start here at the website of the National Museum of African American History and Culture:
www.maahc.si.edu
NO. There is absolutely no comparison between the inhuman institution of Slavery in this country, and those "slaughtered in abortion clinics".
But for you to better understand that, you'd need to be acquaintanted with the historical facts.
I suggest you start here at the website of the National Museum of African American History and Culture:
www.maahc.si.edu
Not a match. Try another false equivalency.
1
I think that sometime in the not-so-distant future we will look back on abortion on-demand the way we now look back on slavery -- a sin against humanity, once again committed blindly in the name of expediency.
1
I would place atop that column in New Orleans, recently vacated by Robt E Lee, a figure of a black man, kneeling and in chains, with the inscription carved into the column's plinth, 'Am I not a man and a brother?'
This was the abolitionist movement's famous and effective image and 'war cry'. We did win, after all.
This was the abolitionist movement's famous and effective image and 'war cry'. We did win, after all.
4
Cohen is spot on. But what to do with the dixie flag, banner of treason and slavery, the american swastika? A just congress would legislate it correctly as illegal hate speech without protection of the 1st Amendment.
3
I have friends who tell me they are not racist, and understand this that discriminating against Blacks or Hispanics or any person on account of race is intellectually and emotionally abhorrent to them.,and yet every once in a while when there is violence in a minority neighborhood they say something about "those people". You do not hear this phrase used when the violence is by White people then it is the Nazi's, hillbillies or the lower class but not "those people". My friends worry about me because I live in the city in a mixed neighborhood. Aren't you afraid they ask.Well no and as my family is mixed and my son half Black I don't fear him either. But am I immune from racist thoughts? No, the racism from my childhood does crop up in a quick thought once in a while and I intellectually force it down into that imagined locker where all the bad things I was taught in the very racist neighborhood where I was brought up. You see we have to acknowledge our demons to keep them at bay. We are made up of all we have learned consciously or unconsciously.
The civil war statues do not bother me. They just tell me what I already know that racism lurks in America even in the liberal intellectual strongholds and corporate boardrooms where "those people" are few and far between.
The confederate statues just tell me we have a ways to go. Taking them down just hides racism like the phrase"those people".
The civil war statues do not bother me. They just tell me what I already know that racism lurks in America even in the liberal intellectual strongholds and corporate boardrooms where "those people" are few and far between.
The confederate statues just tell me we have a ways to go. Taking them down just hides racism like the phrase"those people".
3
Roger Cohn is on the right track, but one column in the NYTIMES will not
solve this historical and emotional divide. The President can bring
the country together and begin the healing process. Donald Trump does not
have the inclination nor the experience for this task. The solution is beyond Trump.
solve this historical and emotional divide. The President can bring
the country together and begin the healing process. Donald Trump does not
have the inclination nor the experience for this task. The solution is beyond Trump.
1
To deny one's history is to become a victim of it. We cannot erase what was a vulgar, disgraceful part of our history. But we surely must recognize that to immortalize these figures without proper context makes the ability to learn from past sins more difficult.
Slavery was and will always be the single most horrific thing that was allowed to occur during the history of mankind outside of genocide. This is why these statues and what they represent need to be remembered but not honored. This is what we, as a society, must begin to accept. Put the statues in question in a museum with historical context provided; but it must be complete. It cannot be sanitized to appease one view or the other.
In the case of General Lee he fought for and was willing to die for his country. He made a decision to stand with his home state of Virginia; securing his place in history. But to deny all of his historical impact is to do so at ones peril. For if we deny the whole picture, warts and all, we can never learn from it and truly move forward.
Slavery was and will always be the single most horrific thing that was allowed to occur during the history of mankind outside of genocide. This is why these statues and what they represent need to be remembered but not honored. This is what we, as a society, must begin to accept. Put the statues in question in a museum with historical context provided; but it must be complete. It cannot be sanitized to appease one view or the other.
In the case of General Lee he fought for and was willing to die for his country. He made a decision to stand with his home state of Virginia; securing his place in history. But to deny all of his historical impact is to do so at ones peril. For if we deny the whole picture, warts and all, we can never learn from it and truly move forward.
I thought that was the concept behind "Naked and Afraid".
Let's widen this perspective: "the white mind-set, white assumptions, and white amnesia" involves far more than the crimes against African Americans, bad enough as it was & is. This is the other dimension of the story which yet needs to be told, to better understand the consequences of such anti-American "values which we hold dear". We are only half-way there, to be frank.
1
First, while not questioning the accuracy of the Stephens quote, that was the prevailing attitude of the times. President Lincoln, while debating Douglas in 1858, declared the following: “I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races.”
Second, and more to the point, aside from the earnings of the workers employed in the removal of these statues, whose life is better the day after a statue of Lee, Forrest, or Columbus is taken down?
Second, and more to the point, aside from the earnings of the workers employed in the removal of these statues, whose life is better the day after a statue of Lee, Forrest, or Columbus is taken down?
3
I always feel better when one more layer of dirt is removed from the country.
Trump's ego-centricity and his "base" are being used (for example, by Bannon) to resurrect something roughly resembling the Old South, white, religious, and anti-most-everything remotely progressive, especially government (which forced integration). The latter is seen to stand in the way of "freedom" to practice "our way of life", which, in turn, means neo-cultivation of selected prejudices (for example, regarding foreigners, "socialism", "war of northern aggression") and opposition to the "outside" by proverbially "standing in schoolhouse doors". It's no accident that such views sell well in the Confederacy, places like Alabama and Texas.
3
Maybe the US wants to be like Hungary. The only place I have seen that has more statues to defeated generals than in the US was in Budapest. Glory to the losers?
1
Hungary never won a war. They were conquered by Huns, Romans, turks, austrians, germans and soviets. If it wasn't for statues of losers they'd have none at all. Actually they have retained some of the statues and monuments tto their conquering invaders, there is a statue of Attila the Hun on the Pest side of the Danube and the Citadella on top of a strategic hill overlooking the Danube has been turned into an excellent museum that explains the history of how the fortress was used by successive invaders to command control of Budapest and the Danube. Actually it might be a good model to look at for a museum in the USA that provides objective context to re-located monuments to the leaders of the slavery defending rebels.
It is worth noting that nearly all of the statues were erected not in the immediate aftermath of the Civil War, but rather from 1890 through 1950. Those years marked the nadir of Jim Crow; they also are the same era as the "Dunning School" dominance of American history pedagogy.
The Dunning School envisioned post-Civil War Reconstruction as a failure, where corrupt northern sympathizers combined with incompetent local African-Americans to decimate the once proud South. Dunning School advocates labeled the end of Reconstruction and the re-emerged dominance of white bigot power as the "Redemption". In advancing their hypothesis, they chose to abandon teaching history in favor of creating a narrative to advance white supremacy. And much of that deliberate misrepresentation of American history persists to this day.
There were real consequences. False narratives bred more discrimination, the results of which continue to infect our society.
For 7/8 of of the time that Europeans and Africans inhabited our country, African-Americans have lived under slavery or legal discrimination. Our Constitution considered slaves as 3/5 of a person; today, the median African-American family income is 3/5 of a white family's. Red lining kept blacks from getting loans to buy homes and devalued property in black neighborhoods; today, median black net worth is 1/13 of whites.
So putting Confederates on public pedestals not only perverted history, it justified continued discrimination.
The Dunning School envisioned post-Civil War Reconstruction as a failure, where corrupt northern sympathizers combined with incompetent local African-Americans to decimate the once proud South. Dunning School advocates labeled the end of Reconstruction and the re-emerged dominance of white bigot power as the "Redemption". In advancing their hypothesis, they chose to abandon teaching history in favor of creating a narrative to advance white supremacy. And much of that deliberate misrepresentation of American history persists to this day.
There were real consequences. False narratives bred more discrimination, the results of which continue to infect our society.
For 7/8 of of the time that Europeans and Africans inhabited our country, African-Americans have lived under slavery or legal discrimination. Our Constitution considered slaves as 3/5 of a person; today, the median African-American family income is 3/5 of a white family's. Red lining kept blacks from getting loans to buy homes and devalued property in black neighborhoods; today, median black net worth is 1/13 of whites.
So putting Confederates on public pedestals not only perverted history, it justified continued discrimination.
5
America is currently in the death march of white supremacy, supported by trump his cabinet, his AG, and the wonderful nonsensical Republican Party. Where will the end be, can this democracy survive?
1
Why put the statues in a museum or museums? They are symbols of hate. Put them in a museum and the white supremacists and racists will see it as something worth preserving -- they aren't. Just smash or melt them and be rid of them. No need to cling to these reminders of our hateful past -- the current president and actions by some cops remind us of that hatefulness each day in word and deed.
2
treason ˈtrēzən/
noun
the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.
"they were convicted of treason"
synonyms: treachery, disloyalty, betrayal, faithlessness; More
the action of betraying someone or something.
Should we have a statue of Chelsea Manning, Benedict Arnold or any other person who has betrayed this country. I consider that President Lincoln voiced a pardon for these soldiers. But their acts were treasonous. Destroy the statues, no. But placing them in a place of honor in our comminities is delusional. Remove these statues from places of honor "with malice toward none".
noun
the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government.
"they were convicted of treason"
synonyms: treachery, disloyalty, betrayal, faithlessness; More
the action of betraying someone or something.
Should we have a statue of Chelsea Manning, Benedict Arnold or any other person who has betrayed this country. I consider that President Lincoln voiced a pardon for these soldiers. But their acts were treasonous. Destroy the statues, no. But placing them in a place of honor in our comminities is delusional. Remove these statues from places of honor "with malice toward none".
1
Since Charlottesville, there has been back and forth discussion about confederate statues and symbols, however I believe almost everybody is missing the point. This has nothing to do with the Civil War nor American history. It never did!
Those under the banner of the alt-right have made taken these symbols, along with Nazi symbols as their own to represent their philosophies which encompass hate, racism, ethnic cleansing, antisemitism and white supremacy. This is not new and has been going on for generations. A look at the marchers or their web sites verify this.
Trump's legitimization of their actions by his ill conceived response only served to add credibility to their beliefs.
Thus The Alt-Right have only themselves to blame.
Those under the banner of the alt-right have made taken these symbols, along with Nazi symbols as their own to represent their philosophies which encompass hate, racism, ethnic cleansing, antisemitism and white supremacy. This is not new and has been going on for generations. A look at the marchers or their web sites verify this.
Trump's legitimization of their actions by his ill conceived response only served to add credibility to their beliefs.
Thus The Alt-Right have only themselves to blame.
1
Now are we going to put up memorials to slavery in place of rhe Confederate statues? Are we going to erect a memorial to slavery and the middle passage near the Capitol in Washington like the Holocaust Memorial near the Reichstag in Berlin? Only when we do these things and make obvious our past will we as a nation face up to the historic realities of slavery, Jim Crow, and ongoing prejudice against African Americans.
1
Bryan Stevenson's Equal Justice Initiative is helping to create just such a memorial/museum: the "From Slavery to Mass Incarceration" museum in Montgomery, Ala., where there have been 57 some-odd markers/monuments to the Confederacy, but none remembering the horror of slavery, which has been, until now, "too controversial."
1
Divide and conquer.
Slavery is not defensible. Monuments to champions of slavery are not defensible. Defending monuments to those who fought against the United States to preserve slavery is not defensible. Who marched in defense of monuments to slavery? Nazis? Klansmen? "Fine people" who March with Nazis and Klansmen?
What has been exposed? The "southern Strategy" is racist, the GOP is racist, the President and his fervent supporters are racists? Saying that one is a not a racist while defending and welcoming racists, or promoting racism is hypocrisy. The GOP and the Trump Administration can no longer wink at white supremacists , and then ridicule Black Lives Matter, or end the DACA program, or pardon a racist Sheriff, or rally supporters against social welfare on racist grounds.
Americans will be forced to act to end racism and other isms that divide us choosing sides without cover, or deniability. White supremacists, Nazis, KKK, have been used to gather votes for untrustworthy cynical greedy politicians. They must be named, identified, and denounced. Tear down all monuments to the Confederacy and photograph all who object and all pundits and politicians who spin narratives that make racism normal.
Slavery is not defensible. Monuments to champions of slavery are not defensible. Defending monuments to those who fought against the United States to preserve slavery is not defensible. Who marched in defense of monuments to slavery? Nazis? Klansmen? "Fine people" who March with Nazis and Klansmen?
What has been exposed? The "southern Strategy" is racist, the GOP is racist, the President and his fervent supporters are racists? Saying that one is a not a racist while defending and welcoming racists, or promoting racism is hypocrisy. The GOP and the Trump Administration can no longer wink at white supremacists , and then ridicule Black Lives Matter, or end the DACA program, or pardon a racist Sheriff, or rally supporters against social welfare on racist grounds.
Americans will be forced to act to end racism and other isms that divide us choosing sides without cover, or deniability. White supremacists, Nazis, KKK, have been used to gather votes for untrustworthy cynical greedy politicians. They must be named, identified, and denounced. Tear down all monuments to the Confederacy and photograph all who object and all pundits and politicians who spin narratives that make racism normal.
3
I instinctively believe that your solution is the right one. Let a museum of the Confederacy be erected in every Southern state, let all the monuments in that state be sent there, and let them function the same way Holocaust museums do: urging people to never let it happen again.
1
The thing is, it's not only a matter of putting these statues in museums with a warning sign -- people have to be first informed about why they should never allow things like Slavery and the Civil War to happen again...only educational programs can do that.
Ever read a Southern American History book? It's disgusting. They think the Revolution was all about our right to the slave trade. That the only important battles were in the South.
Forget the Civil War, they make it sound like they won.
In WW1 & 2 no mention of Europe calling the American Army the 'Yanks'. The rightness of segregation, both of Blacks & in WW2 the concentration camps for the Japanese & their decedents. No mention of the battalion, all Japanese ancestry who fought through & saved the 'lost battalion' during the Battle of the Bulge. The Lost Battalion was all white.
Expediency ended segregation in the Army, not enough white men to replace those killed. Those in a desegregated unit learned fast that what they had been taught about the 'cowardice' & laziness of Black men were lies. It was WW2 that started the destruction of segregation as it was before the war. It continued after. It continues now. Humans being humans, it will need to continue forever.
Forget the Civil War, they make it sound like they won.
In WW1 & 2 no mention of Europe calling the American Army the 'Yanks'. The rightness of segregation, both of Blacks & in WW2 the concentration camps for the Japanese & their decedents. No mention of the battalion, all Japanese ancestry who fought through & saved the 'lost battalion' during the Battle of the Bulge. The Lost Battalion was all white.
Expediency ended segregation in the Army, not enough white men to replace those killed. Those in a desegregated unit learned fast that what they had been taught about the 'cowardice' & laziness of Black men were lies. It was WW2 that started the destruction of segregation as it was before the war. It continued after. It continues now. Humans being humans, it will need to continue forever.
Can't we all agree that a statues commemorating traitors should be removed? Why is this so hard to understand?
1
And lest we forget, in World War II, America allied itself with Stalin and the Soviet Union, whose crimes against humanity were every bit as heinous as Hitler's, and then, after the war, hired Nazis to work in the space program and elsewhere.
1
My enemy's enemy is my friend.
Mr. Cohen..... This is a wonderous piece! Every word!
A Slavery Museum would be a splendid idea. A museum to the dark stain that should remind US all of the birth of this Nation and remind, too, that our history is not all that exceptional, except for the Constitution and the government it gave US. (A government, by the way, that many of these "confederates" hate and want to see destroyed.)
Why did we not build statues to Benedict Arnold, or Alger Hiss, or any of the nazi spies who surely plied their trade against their Nation? We do not have these because they were all traitors. They committed treason. The same that Robert E. Lee and Jefferson David committed. Treason.
And they lost.
You don't build monuments to losers and treason.
Which is why there will never be a monument to t rump. Who, by the way, has exposed all of the weaknesses of our Nation in one fell swoop.
A Slavery Museum would be a splendid idea. A museum to the dark stain that should remind US all of the birth of this Nation and remind, too, that our history is not all that exceptional, except for the Constitution and the government it gave US. (A government, by the way, that many of these "confederates" hate and want to see destroyed.)
Why did we not build statues to Benedict Arnold, or Alger Hiss, or any of the nazi spies who surely plied their trade against their Nation? We do not have these because they were all traitors. They committed treason. The same that Robert E. Lee and Jefferson David committed. Treason.
And they lost.
You don't build monuments to losers and treason.
Which is why there will never be a monument to t rump. Who, by the way, has exposed all of the weaknesses of our Nation in one fell swoop.
3
If these were truly monuments to American history then the every park would have monuments to slaves who died to allow the country to flourish, the thousands of people who were hanged in the public squares of America because their color, religion or beliefs in equality. Or statues of the women who fought valiantly to get the vote being imprisoned and some tortured by their own government would be every where. Our squares, parks and ordinary gathering place would honor all the Americans who fought to bring modern democracy to everyone but they are not. Our history is one of documentation, study, reflection and action so the argument for statues rings hollow and unproductive since they don't honor the people who really deserve honoring for America's democracy.
2
The effort to take down statues, whose significance has been essentially unchanged for 100 years, reflects not history but current politics. It is simply one side of a cultural war which seeks to substitute a unitary culture for a pluralistic one, and will almost certainly result in an equal and opposite reaction. When you declare a cultural war, you had better be sure that you win it.
2
In addition to slavery and lynchings Cohen could have also mentioned apartheid, housing discrimination, job discrimination and Republican opposition to civil rights laws. There are certainly some I've missed. Southerner's need to come to grips with the reality that their civil war"heroes" were traitors to the union and fought to maintain an institution most people, whites included, find abhorrent. These individuals are not to be celebrated but should be despised both for their fight against the union and their support of slavery.
2
There is only one memorial that needs to be kept and perhaps made larger. It's a small memorial at the front of the Congress Building facing the mall. The title is "America Weeping on the Shoulder of History". It captures everything that needs to be said better than all the bronze and gilded statues commemorating all the death and destruction of the Civil War.
2
These statues are not memorials to the past. They are symbols of active oppression.
1
The State of Mississippi will be opening two new museums in downtown Jackson in December as part of its 200th. anniversary of admission to the United States. The two museums are adjacent to each other and share a common lobby. One is a Museum of the history of the state. The other is a museum of African Americans in the state. The African American Museum is the first built by a state in our country. These buildings are being built to accurately show the history of Mississippi It is precisely where relics of the state's history, including the history of African Americans, belong. This is where the symbols of all of the state's heritage belong and will clearly demonstrate Mississippi's honest preservation of its past. Anyone interested in the history of the state and of the life of African Americans in Mississippi will be well served to visit these two museums. Hopefully it will contain the current flag of the state as a thing of the past. We are moving in that direction. Most cities in the state no longer fly that flag publicly, as well as its eight universities.
1
It's interesting to note that even the two museums being built to Mississippi's history are not even intergrated.
Move all the statues to the nearest graveyard , where we already have established a place to memorialize good and bad people without the political inference .
2
Removing he confederate statues is not excising history. It is allowing factual history to be known.
1
For Pete's Sake! Could someone just publish the Articles of Succession so we can stop whitesplanning and whitewashing what the Civil war was about and the national values at that time. Just stop thinking traitors were valiant defenders of a honorable culture. They wrote it all down! Just publish it!
Regardless of it's past, America is a great nation! We moved in the right direction and we can continue to be proud of our nations if we stop avoiding unpleasant feelings about the past. If America would confront it's history honesty then you wouldn't need to take down statues. All you need to do is post a plaque besides them stating : "Another example of white supremacy" .
Regardless of it's past, America is a great nation! We moved in the right direction and we can continue to be proud of our nations if we stop avoiding unpleasant feelings about the past. If America would confront it's history honesty then you wouldn't need to take down statues. All you need to do is post a plaque besides them stating : "Another example of white supremacy" .
1
Every time that I think about the issue of the removal of the statue of a hero of the Confederacy, I think that we should not engage in revisionism, and leave history in place.
Then, as a Jew, who had one side of his family wiped out in the holocaust,I think of how threatened I would feel if I were to daily walk past a statue of a Nazi leader or General or some monument honoring their importance in history and I can internalize what descendants of slaves feel when they pass a statue honoring someone who fought, in part, to perpetuate slavery. I get it. Move these statues to museums commemorating the misery associated with the institution of slavery.
Then, as a Jew, who had one side of his family wiped out in the holocaust,I think of how threatened I would feel if I were to daily walk past a statue of a Nazi leader or General or some monument honoring their importance in history and I can internalize what descendants of slaves feel when they pass a statue honoring someone who fought, in part, to perpetuate slavery. I get it. Move these statues to museums commemorating the misery associated with the institution of slavery.
1
The Civil War happened. It's part of our historic truth. It was a tragedy for soldiers on both sides, and for millions of civilians in the South. It was also a tragedy because it was the first time we were unable to settle differences through constitutional means. When I see a statue of a Confederate general, I am unmoved, but when I see a memorials to the dead soldiers on both sides, I'm glad that they aren't forgotten.
2
People in the South can have all the statues they want of their Civil War "heros" as long as they are on private property. But when they are on public property they are an offense to the nation as a whole. They tell us that the government that allows the Confederate statues on public property is endorsing the racism and anti-American ideas those statues represent. It is not about "State's Rights." It is about States' approval of racism.
1
Quite by chance early this morning at Stora Torget in Linköping, SE, I studied the giant sculpture created by Carl Milles to tell with a series of relief images a story of a period in the history of this region (In Swedish @ https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folkungabrunnen)
Were we to keep statues of Robert E Lee then they should only be kept if accompanied by new sculptures like Milles' that tell the story and put the Confederacy figures in their proper context.
I would vote against that. I support Roger Cohen's proposal to take all the statues down and put a few in museums where the same story is told as that told by the history of the US Census (a 2d submission).
In that story, from the very beginning, the black slave was to be seen as worth 3/5 as much as a white (see full details elsewhere), and that view was preserved, statue by statue and census by census, and in 2020 will still be preserved when the census is taken.
Take them down and put them in their proper place.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
Were we to keep statues of Robert E Lee then they should only be kept if accompanied by new sculptures like Milles' that tell the story and put the Confederacy figures in their proper context.
I would vote against that. I support Roger Cohen's proposal to take all the statues down and put a few in museums where the same story is told as that told by the history of the US Census (a 2d submission).
In that story, from the very beginning, the black slave was to be seen as worth 3/5 as much as a white (see full details elsewhere), and that view was preserved, statue by statue and census by census, and in 2020 will still be preserved when the census is taken.
Take them down and put them in their proper place.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
Is it better to venerate or to educate? That is the question. Let's shed illusions and face reality.
Moving these statues to museums will preserve our history and educate the public. Keeping them in public parks gives unconscious endorsement. All citizens did not have a voice in deciding where to erect these memorials.
When a country has endured a bitter civil war, with 600, 000 dead it's a bad idea to display all these memorials for 1 side. That would apply to any nation that's had a civil war. In the US these statues idealize the side that contradicts all our values and ideals.
The South continued white dominance with legalized murder of Blacks by public lynching, done by devout, church going Christians, and protected by officers of the law. And they blocked voting rights for Blacks in the lifetime of many living now.
Musuems housing these memorials could offer interesting programs and lectures for the public, explaining their significance in our history. They’d be preserved but not out in the open, where people have to pass them every day. Our current controversies offers the chance for this change.
Seeing these statues should be a matter of choice, not something imposed on the public as they go about their daily business.
Robert E. Lee discouraged monuments. They ‘keep open the sores of war,’ he wrote. Today, descendants of Lee have told the media including letters to NYT, they’re fine with moving monuments out of public parks and squares into museums.
Moving these statues to museums will preserve our history and educate the public. Keeping them in public parks gives unconscious endorsement. All citizens did not have a voice in deciding where to erect these memorials.
When a country has endured a bitter civil war, with 600, 000 dead it's a bad idea to display all these memorials for 1 side. That would apply to any nation that's had a civil war. In the US these statues idealize the side that contradicts all our values and ideals.
The South continued white dominance with legalized murder of Blacks by public lynching, done by devout, church going Christians, and protected by officers of the law. And they blocked voting rights for Blacks in the lifetime of many living now.
Musuems housing these memorials could offer interesting programs and lectures for the public, explaining their significance in our history. They’d be preserved but not out in the open, where people have to pass them every day. Our current controversies offers the chance for this change.
Seeing these statues should be a matter of choice, not something imposed on the public as they go about their daily business.
Robert E. Lee discouraged monuments. They ‘keep open the sores of war,’ he wrote. Today, descendants of Lee have told the media including letters to NYT, they’re fine with moving monuments out of public parks and squares into museums.
1
Would the defenders of confederate statues pay for and erect statues of John Brown and Nat Turner - men who fought for freedom from slavery but lost their battles - just as the southern warriors did? I think not. I think some white people would be be aghast to think they would have to see these statues in the city square every day. A statue of Lee as president of Washington College may be appropriate, but on horseback in battle gear ready to defend slavery is an affront to black people and many others. Read each state's articles of secession and you will see that slavery was the major factor that states defended as the right of states against the right of the nation.
1
Wow. "White mind-set, white assumptions, white amnesia". Identifying clusters of thoughts and attitudes with the pigmentation of one's skin.
If that were any other color, it's clear what this would be called.
If that were any other color, it's clear what this would be called.
5
The politically correct sanitization of America has commenced. I am glad I got to see the Robert E. Lee statue in New Orleans this past April, before it was ignominiously removed to satisfy the people who would rewrite American history by cleansing it of anyone and anything they don't approve of. The slippery slope is now a landslide. But remember, you can't change history by denying it, no matter how hard Democrats, liberals and progressives (or whatever they are calling themselves today) are bound and determined to try.
4
The takeaway from slavery, should be that "All lives matter". Unfortunately, the bearers of such a message face margilazation and violent responses, as much today as back then. It would appear we have learned nothing.
1
Throughout the nation those statutes will be replaced by statures of Trump, kneeling at the foot of Putin.
2
Mr Cohen, I would like to know what lessons you draw (if any) from the South African experience. Since liberation and the overthrow of the apartheid regime in 1994, South Africans have rightly renamed many fixtures of their landscape. Yet some striking holdovers from the days of white minority rule remain.
Johannesburg is now traversed by Nelson Mandela Bridge, Miriam Makeba Street, and Albertini Sisulu Road, but also by Kruger Street, Jan Smuts Avenue, and Rissik Street. One can visit the Hector Pieterson Memorial in Orlando West, but also the Voortrekker Monument and the Koevoet Memorial (!) in Pretoria.
As an American, this strikes me as cognitive dissonance on a grand scale. But no less than naming a state park and erecting a statue in memory of Nathan Bedford Forrest in Tennessee, whose population is nearly 20% African American.
Has South Africa found a way to live with its past that the United States has not?
Johannesburg is now traversed by Nelson Mandela Bridge, Miriam Makeba Street, and Albertini Sisulu Road, but also by Kruger Street, Jan Smuts Avenue, and Rissik Street. One can visit the Hector Pieterson Memorial in Orlando West, but also the Voortrekker Monument and the Koevoet Memorial (!) in Pretoria.
As an American, this strikes me as cognitive dissonance on a grand scale. But no less than naming a state park and erecting a statue in memory of Nathan Bedford Forrest in Tennessee, whose population is nearly 20% African American.
Has South Africa found a way to live with its past that the United States has not?
1
Like Lincoln...Nelson Mandela knew that the path to peace and nationhood comes in reconciliation and forgiveness....not in vengeance and retribution.
I wonder what would happen if I made a statue of a slave auction and placed it on public lands. Or perhaps of a master beating and raping a slave.
Imagine, even with the oldest of these statues, walking to a "separate but equal" school in 1930. Would you feel southern pride? Would you feel reconciliation?
These statues are nothing more than monuments to a white occupying force.
Imagine, even with the oldest of these statues, walking to a "separate but equal" school in 1930. Would you feel southern pride? Would you feel reconciliation?
These statues are nothing more than monuments to a white occupying force.
Sometimes Mr. Cohen's performance of the Wishy-Washy Hand-Wringing Liberal is quite eerie.
If one constantly serves up the same meal, as this columnist and more broadly this journal for the jaundiced is wont to do, indigestion is to be expected. Repeated servings in the face of sensible contrary advice will lead to irritable bowel syndrome. Then the stuff will really hit the fan, along with many a smug commentator. We are what we eat.
1
The great pyramids were built by slaves. They were built to honor Pharaohs who were slave owners. Thankfully Egyptians know better than to blow them into smithereens.
Recently ISIS destroyed the idolitic Bull of the ancient Babylonians. "Those monuments are offensive to Islam" they said.
When ISIS then destroyed the Temple of Bell in Palmyra, were we not outraged ? These temples were almost certainly built by slaves as well.
The attack on history is driven by pure identity politics. By the worse part, is that it sets the precedent for future generations to attack today's monuments, where each generations attacks and erases what the previous generation stood for...
Recently ISIS destroyed the idolitic Bull of the ancient Babylonians. "Those monuments are offensive to Islam" they said.
When ISIS then destroyed the Temple of Bell in Palmyra, were we not outraged ? These temples were almost certainly built by slaves as well.
The attack on history is driven by pure identity politics. By the worse part, is that it sets the precedent for future generations to attack today's monuments, where each generations attacks and erases what the previous generation stood for...
6
The pyramids were built by paid workers.
https://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2010/01/12/egypt-new-find-shows-...
https://www.usnews.com/science/articles/2010/01/12/egypt-new-find-shows-...
1
The statue of Robert E Lee was also built by a paid worker. My point stands.
Charles: the article clearly says it is an unproven theory.
The statues of Confederate leaders should come down. They celebrate traitors who lost their war, a war to sustain slavery under the false banner of "state's rights."
Two exceptions are worthwhile in the interest of history, statues on battlefields and anonymous soldier statues in small communities which still want them. In turn, more statues should go up to the heroes of the reconstruction and civil rights eras.
The civil war hero statues of the Jim Crow era aren't really to celebrate Civil War battlefield prowess. If they were, there would be many statues to General Longstreet -- arguably the south's best battlefield general -- and few to none for Nathan Bedford Forrest, likely war criminal and a relatively junior commander. Longstreet reconciled to the war's consequences and served the US Government after the war. Forrest was an early KKK leader.
Two exceptions are worthwhile in the interest of history, statues on battlefields and anonymous soldier statues in small communities which still want them. In turn, more statues should go up to the heroes of the reconstruction and civil rights eras.
The civil war hero statues of the Jim Crow era aren't really to celebrate Civil War battlefield prowess. If they were, there would be many statues to General Longstreet -- arguably the south's best battlefield general -- and few to none for Nathan Bedford Forrest, likely war criminal and a relatively junior commander. Longstreet reconciled to the war's consequences and served the US Government after the war. Forrest was an early KKK leader.
2
Remove the statues and go one step further. People who have massive wealth directly linked to slavery ought to pay reparations. Look around: The Bush family, Jimmy Carter Family, Anderson Cooper. There are many more who are not so visible
1
Why not keep the statues but put clearly visible inscriptions with all of them that indicate that these evil men should be remembered because they attempted to use force to oppress and enslave people just because of their skin color, and millions, not remembered here, rose up to stop them, many paying with their lives.
1
It might be helpful to look at the events associated with the erection of these monuments in specific cases.
In my hometown, Durant OK, these are well documented in the local newspaper of the time, 1917.
The best interpretation I can put on these events is that the monument was erected to celebrate the fading of Civil War animosity as evidence by men from both sides serving together in WWI.
Racism was surely present in this community. There was a serious race riot in 1911. But the monument was not motivated by this.
History is complicated. No good purpose is served by erasing its memory. Better to leave all evidence of past attitudes and try to understand them
In my hometown, Durant OK, these are well documented in the local newspaper of the time, 1917.
The best interpretation I can put on these events is that the monument was erected to celebrate the fading of Civil War animosity as evidence by men from both sides serving together in WWI.
Racism was surely present in this community. There was a serious race riot in 1911. But the monument was not motivated by this.
History is complicated. No good purpose is served by erasing its memory. Better to leave all evidence of past attitudes and try to understand them
2
Germans accepted culpability for the holocaust. No Nazi statues were left in place after WWII. Memorials to the holocaust victims were erected both in remembrance to the victims and to serve as a reminder that such evil had prevailed, as an acknowledgement and renouncement of such evil moving forward.
Many in the American South have still not accepted that the evil of slavery was an industrial scale ongoing atrocity and that the Confederacy and the Civil War were overarchingly a defense of that ongoing atrocity. They seek to obscure the true reasons their confederate forbears end up forsaking their country and engaged in a treasonous war that killed half a million people brought destruction on themselves. The honorable thing to do would be to accept culpability for the atrocity that was the institution of slavery, but for many they cannot do the honorable thing and acknowledge that truth and show some cognizance of the evil at the core of the confederacy's cause. Nor do they acknowledge that there should be some memorial or remembrance to those enslaved and following emancipation, those blacks oppressed via Jim Crow.
Lincoln was way too lenient toward the South in trying to be conciliatory and heal the nation he kept from fracturing. It has allowed the South to continue to harbor the illusion that the confederacy was based on some noble cause.
Many in the American South have still not accepted that the evil of slavery was an industrial scale ongoing atrocity and that the Confederacy and the Civil War were overarchingly a defense of that ongoing atrocity. They seek to obscure the true reasons their confederate forbears end up forsaking their country and engaged in a treasonous war that killed half a million people brought destruction on themselves. The honorable thing to do would be to accept culpability for the atrocity that was the institution of slavery, but for many they cannot do the honorable thing and acknowledge that truth and show some cognizance of the evil at the core of the confederacy's cause. Nor do they acknowledge that there should be some memorial or remembrance to those enslaved and following emancipation, those blacks oppressed via Jim Crow.
Lincoln was way too lenient toward the South in trying to be conciliatory and heal the nation he kept from fracturing. It has allowed the South to continue to harbor the illusion that the confederacy was based on some noble cause.
3
Worth reading "Confederates in the Attic"... the reckoning has been a long time coming but is clearly desperately needed
There do not appear to be any truly balanced solutions. History needs to be put in its proper niche. Nazism and slavery must be recognized as the horrors they were. They should be used as lessons. Put the in our past but include an asterisk.
1
Uncanny how 750,000 lives lost in a Civil War our statues pretend was never won is now usurped by white nationalists to discriminate against 800,000 DREAMers somehow never one w/ our "e pluribus unum" motto.
Perhaps sculptor Christo's next environmental wrap -- in lieu of his "Gates" -- can deploy all the removed horse-mounted/Confederate statues from across the USA to duly comprise a renewed pageantry on which Trump's idiotic wall would otherwise have no writing.
Perhaps sculptor Christo's next environmental wrap -- in lieu of his "Gates" -- can deploy all the removed horse-mounted/Confederate statues from across the USA to duly comprise a renewed pageantry on which Trump's idiotic wall would otherwise have no writing.
We rewrite history if we rewrite the history books and eliminate rather than reinterpret real events from them. Public statues are not history books. Their purpose is to express respect, admiration, and approval of the subject of the statue. By all means consign Confederate statues to museums rather than destroy them. But if we no longer respect, admire, and approve of their subjects, they do not belong in public spaces. Imagine our horror if a German after World War II had said, "Don't remove all this statues of Hitler. That's erasing history." As so many people have pointed out, Confederate officers fought for a monstrously unjust cause.
1
I know, just remove all of the confederate statues from southern cities and put them along the US/Mexico border. Once we know how many there are, we can start a campaign to enclose the thousands of statues each in a park like setting and have a fence around each one connecting to each other. Ask the American people to contribute to this project and we will have a beautiful wall or a system of fences along our border and we won't have to ask Mexico to pay for it. It will be beautiful, believe me. I just don't know which way to face the old geezers.
This, one of two submissions, deals with another set of monuments to the belief expressed here by the Vice President of the confederacy "That the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery — subordination to the superior race — is his natural and normal condition.”
This second set of monuments is to be found in the archaic system for classifying Americans used by the USCB from 1790 to the present. Former USCB Director, now Professor, Kenneth Prewitt called my attention to this in his "What Is Your Race? The Census and Our Flawed Efforts to Classify Americans"
That system was created by racists so that a racial order could be established by law. Anyone who knows the history of that system knows that white was at the top in 1790 and was kept there as superior to each group added decade by decade. Each of those new groups was named using terminology created racists in Europe, for example Herman Lundborg in Sweden 1922.
The Charlottesville mob and very likely our president fully support that terminology, and White Nationalists recently expressed their support for the new race that USCB was going to create, MENA - line of descent to Middle East and North Africa - because it would remove those "white by law" people from the "white by law" group to which White Nationalists see themselves as belonging.
When we are done discussing statues, could we please start discussing the USCB system using Prewitt as our guide?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
This second set of monuments is to be found in the archaic system for classifying Americans used by the USCB from 1790 to the present. Former USCB Director, now Professor, Kenneth Prewitt called my attention to this in his "What Is Your Race? The Census and Our Flawed Efforts to Classify Americans"
That system was created by racists so that a racial order could be established by law. Anyone who knows the history of that system knows that white was at the top in 1790 and was kept there as superior to each group added decade by decade. Each of those new groups was named using terminology created racists in Europe, for example Herman Lundborg in Sweden 1922.
The Charlottesville mob and very likely our president fully support that terminology, and White Nationalists recently expressed their support for the new race that USCB was going to create, MENA - line of descent to Middle East and North Africa - because it would remove those "white by law" people from the "white by law" group to which White Nationalists see themselves as belonging.
When we are done discussing statues, could we please start discussing the USCB system using Prewitt as our guide?
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
If this debate really is about history, then might I suggest statues to General Sherman in prominent places from Atlanta all the way to the sea.
When the allies defeated the Nazis they immediately issued an edict banning the planning, designing, erection, installation, posting, or other display of any monument, memorial, poster, statue, edifice, street or highway marker, emblem, tablet, or insignia which tends to preserve and keep alive the German military tradition, to revive militarism, or to commemorate the Nazi party... anything that fell under this description including museums were destroyed.
Traitors do not deserve to be honored. The South should never have been allowed to maintain anything that honored the disgraceful civil war that they instigated and then lost. This nonsense of teaching the civil war as northern aggression should never have been allowed let alone Jim Crow and the rest of the atrocities committed against black citizens well into the 20th century.
When we remove these statues we are removing what should never have been allowed to exist. Some should be removed to a museum but only if they are presented in accurate historical context. The rest should be destroyed.
Where are the statues celebrating the abolitionists. Where are the ones for the union soldiers fighting to preserve their country. Only in America do we celebrate the looser rather than the victor. Our monuments tend to be very one sided. We recognized that the Nazis didn't deserve to be remembered and neither does the Confederacy.
Traitors do not deserve to be honored. The South should never have been allowed to maintain anything that honored the disgraceful civil war that they instigated and then lost. This nonsense of teaching the civil war as northern aggression should never have been allowed let alone Jim Crow and the rest of the atrocities committed against black citizens well into the 20th century.
When we remove these statues we are removing what should never have been allowed to exist. Some should be removed to a museum but only if they are presented in accurate historical context. The rest should be destroyed.
Where are the statues celebrating the abolitionists. Where are the ones for the union soldiers fighting to preserve their country. Only in America do we celebrate the looser rather than the victor. Our monuments tend to be very one sided. We recognized that the Nazis didn't deserve to be remembered and neither does the Confederacy.
1
Much of "American history" written and told over the centuries is a lie.
A blatant lie.
Many Native Americans and African Americans and Japanese Americans know this.
Many White Americans have no clue. The real story has never been really shared with them.
A blatant lie.
Many Native Americans and African Americans and Japanese Americans know this.
Many White Americans have no clue. The real story has never been really shared with them.
2
Memory is a pesky reminder (pardon the pun) of our racist past and present...and future if we can't mend our ways. We 'whites' invaded and plundered this country, and still have the gall to claim our right to have done so as 'supremacists'. Hypocrites you say? Right on. Some humility yet? We better.
The reason for removing the statues of the Confederate leaders should have nothing to do with racism, slavery or even secession. The reason to remove them lies in the reason they were built in the first place - to reassert white supremacy and second class citizenship for African Americans after Reconstruction. To get into the racism, slavery and secessionist arguments opens a pandora's box that begins with the question, "Where do we stop?" Does anyone doubt that most of our founders both North and South were racists? Washington, Jefferson, Madison and Jackson were all slaveholders and racists. Must their monuments and statues come down? Did not the Northern businessmen profit immensely from the trade in slaves? Racism was the bedrock of the founding of our nation, not just black racism but racism against native Americans as well. You can tear down every monument and memorial in the United States and still not make a dent in white washing the original sin of racism, slavery and even genocide on native Americans that is at the heart of our nation. The Civil War was fought over slavery and Union? Is there to be another civil war over statues and monuments?
32
At 80, I lament that no one really asks what I Think....but I can Remember
Much....and Many. Destroying statues will Not destroy the realities of our
History. Interesting , to me, how much discussion and debate may Surface in the "destruction" of images. However, once those images are gone, they
are also Forgotten. I do not want the Holocaust "forgotten". I still See
anti-Semitism and Racial hate in evidence and in people. Put the "images" in museums, but do not "forget " Reality.
Much....and Many. Destroying statues will Not destroy the realities of our
History. Interesting , to me, how much discussion and debate may Surface in the "destruction" of images. However, once those images are gone, they
are also Forgotten. I do not want the Holocaust "forgotten". I still See
anti-Semitism and Racial hate in evidence and in people. Put the "images" in museums, but do not "forget " Reality.
41
I absolutely agree. Put those statues in museum and write about the true history of slavery, the civil war, Nazism and the Holocaust. Write about the people whose families were destroyed by hatred. Teach this in the schools and in books. But make sure you are teaching the truth. Not lies.
1
Perhaps those statues should be placed in the National Museum of African American History and Culture, not to glorify them but to place them in a historical context. They are part of black history; what better place for them than in a black history museum?
27
Eloquent piece by Roger Cohen, which I’m sure gratifies the activists, both black and white, but—dare I say it—would have little meaning for those millions, both black and white, who struggle from day to day to put bread on the table.
Meanwhile, the Republicans control some 2/3 or 3/4 of state houses (depending on how you count), and all three branches of the federal government. If and when Trump fills the hundreds of vacant, federal judgeships, there will be nothing to stop him creating permanent, one-party rule—the Putinism or neofascism that he publicly admires.
What then? You can be sure the first target will be the social safety net in all its manifestations. Social Security, Medicare, Obamacare will all be emasculated. Please tell me, Roger Cohen, how that will help our black fellow citizens?
Cohen touches on the backlash to the "white mindset" in his last paragraph, but like all good liberals, he dismisses it as of little consequence. Identity politics, an angry, take-no-prisoners, litmus-test ideology practiced by liberal Democrats, both black and white, has pushed this country to the brink. But liberals, black and white, are in denial. God help us all.
Meanwhile, the Republicans control some 2/3 or 3/4 of state houses (depending on how you count), and all three branches of the federal government. If and when Trump fills the hundreds of vacant, federal judgeships, there will be nothing to stop him creating permanent, one-party rule—the Putinism or neofascism that he publicly admires.
What then? You can be sure the first target will be the social safety net in all its manifestations. Social Security, Medicare, Obamacare will all be emasculated. Please tell me, Roger Cohen, how that will help our black fellow citizens?
Cohen touches on the backlash to the "white mindset" in his last paragraph, but like all good liberals, he dismisses it as of little consequence. Identity politics, an angry, take-no-prisoners, litmus-test ideology practiced by liberal Democrats, both black and white, has pushed this country to the brink. But liberals, black and white, are in denial. God help us all.
2
You don't change history by removing its monuments. Where you stand often depends on where you sit. Rather than viewing statues of Lee, Jackson and others as a glorification of what they fought for, you could just as easily see them as a representation or a reminder of the mistakes we've made as a country.
4
For heaven's sake, just melt the statues down. If we must memorialize, why not Ida B. Wells and Sojourner Truth Harriet Tubman and Fanny Lou Hamer and Jane Addams? Why not memorialize the people who built things and changed our lives for the better instead of dead warriors? Why romanticize our ugly past instead of honoring the people who made our country great?
97
I think I speak for most Southerners when I say we prefer monuments to stupidity!
They're from an earlier age (one might say all earlier ages) when men who led armies were given the highest honors. This wasn't only a European custom, because Native American leaders such as Sitting Bull were lionized, as were military leaders in other countries and cultures.
The male drive to protect and fight over land and boundaries is older than our species; boundary defense and aggression is common to other species, even insects. The drive evolved to protect food sources; without it, one's genetic relations starved and died without offspring.
So good leaders were idolized. Nearly every war, including the Civil War, has been about boundaries: who owned what land, and who had the rights to pass through it or harvest or exploit it. People who contribute in other ways deserve statues more, I believe, although I'm grateful to Eisenhower, for example, without whom my family would have been eradicated in WWII. But the Civil War was over a particularly odious and criminal custom, and I wouldn't want a statue of Lee any more than I would like to see a statue of Rommel.
The male drive to protect and fight over land and boundaries is older than our species; boundary defense and aggression is common to other species, even insects. The drive evolved to protect food sources; without it, one's genetic relations starved and died without offspring.
So good leaders were idolized. Nearly every war, including the Civil War, has been about boundaries: who owned what land, and who had the rights to pass through it or harvest or exploit it. People who contribute in other ways deserve statues more, I believe, although I'm grateful to Eisenhower, for example, without whom my family would have been eradicated in WWII. But the Civil War was over a particularly odious and criminal custom, and I wouldn't want a statue of Lee any more than I would like to see a statue of Rommel.
Remove the monuments to leaders of the Confederacy and it's armies. Move them to historical centers where they can be explained in context. If they can't be moved, then add plaques or addenda that puts them in historical context including the date of their erection and under whose aegis they were erected.
I would make exception for the local statues erected to the common foot soldiers of the CSA. Leave these in place but add that they died in a losing, and treasonous cause. Remove any lists of names from these statues to the local historical society where they can be available for historical and genealogical research.
We should not allow the continued glorification of the leaders of the Confederacy, but we should acknowledge those they led to their deaths in that unholy crusade for the preservation of slavery.
I would make exception for the local statues erected to the common foot soldiers of the CSA. Leave these in place but add that they died in a losing, and treasonous cause. Remove any lists of names from these statues to the local historical society where they can be available for historical and genealogical research.
We should not allow the continued glorification of the leaders of the Confederacy, but we should acknowledge those they led to their deaths in that unholy crusade for the preservation of slavery.
59
This is what I believe. The leaders of the Confederacy, many of who attended West Point, took the same oath of loyalty to the United States Constitution I did as a new 2LT 40 yrs ago when I graduated from college and was commissioned via Army ROTC. The leaders of the Confederacy violated that oath, waged war upon the United States, and thus committed treason. They should not be honored. But a statue honoring, in general, "the war dead," is appropriate, as is our statue here in Savannah's Forsyth Park. Leave that statue, and those like it, but remove those that venerate the men that took the South into war to perpetuate slavery in America.
1
Frank, you are right. As is still so evident today, loyalty to one's personal economic status far outweighs any oath of allegiance sworn before man and God.
Generals and Presidents propose, but the soldiers on the ground dispose -- too often with their lives.
Thank you for your service, I was classified 4F 50 years ago..
Generals and Presidents propose, but the soldiers on the ground dispose -- too often with their lives.
Thank you for your service, I was classified 4F 50 years ago..
Cohen is correct: the issue here is not statuary, but denial and whitewashing of historic fact. In California, grammar schools have traditionally required all students to participate in projects to commemorate the installation and management of the Spanish Missions as the advancement of civilization and culture. To native peoples, they were both concentration camps and tools of genocide, supporting the invasion and loss of their land and way of life, but that is not the principle point of view of the curriculum.
Like the traditional and officially sanctioned California celebration of the Missions, the Confederate monuments, which were mostly civic efforts in the Jim Crow era, reflect how a segment of America wishes to see itself, a frame and filter to place over the darker facts of history.
It's time to put these bits of cultural propaganda in museums, next to the raw facts, where we can reflect and learn about selective amnesia, and the deeper question of why we continue to whitewash evil.
Like the traditional and officially sanctioned California celebration of the Missions, the Confederate monuments, which were mostly civic efforts in the Jim Crow era, reflect how a segment of America wishes to see itself, a frame and filter to place over the darker facts of history.
It's time to put these bits of cultural propaganda in museums, next to the raw facts, where we can reflect and learn about selective amnesia, and the deeper question of why we continue to whitewash evil.
5
Your characterization of the CA missions as the same as the Confederacy is hollow. Crimes against humanity have been committed by explorers and settlers throughout WORLD history. Each example tragically proves how badly humans can treat other humans. The Confederacy and the attempted glorification thereof, is something different. Of course their cause was immoral, indefensible! BUT--in their act of secession and in their declaration of war, the Confederates also committed treason against their own country. From Benedict Arnold on, this crime has brought a death sentence. Wise people understand that treason is an act of anarchy from which the slender reeds of society and government may not recover. Perhaps we can blame Lincoln for the ongoing open wound of The Civil War, as it was he who demanded "malice toward none." In retrospect, we would have been better off with Nuremberg-style trials, resulting in prison and death sentences; a forced reunification and immediate passage of federal laws binding us all as one UNITED nation; and just reparations made to the victims of the institution and the war. That missing finality is the singular tragedy of the Civil War.
Looping Father Serra in with Stonewall Jackson is false equivalency on a grand scale. Further, I know of no 4th grader who did not learn about the ravages the missions brought upon our Native Americans, and no visitor to a CA mission believes they are only visiting a Catholic church.
Looping Father Serra in with Stonewall Jackson is false equivalency on a grand scale. Further, I know of no 4th grader who did not learn about the ravages the missions brought upon our Native Americans, and no visitor to a CA mission believes they are only visiting a Catholic church.
2
I agree. Stop teaching children that we defeated a mad king in the name of religious freedom. Start teaching them the truth -- that we accepted slavery as the price of forming a strong country out of 13 lucrative experimental plantations, and that we all share in the guilt of that original sin.
2
False equivalency? Perhaps from your perspective. But from the viewpoint of California's first peoples, there is no significant distinction between the mission and the plantation. Both forcibly separated families, displaced people from their native lands, used force to ensure compliance, denied basic human rights and self-determination, etc, etc, etc. Even Serra's contemporaries decried the military, political and colonial depradation of the times.
And having gone through the California school system myself, and my children as well, I can assure you, mention of the impact on native peoples was only added to textbooks relatively recently.
And having gone through the California school system myself, and my children as well, I can assure you, mention of the impact on native peoples was only added to textbooks relatively recently.
Ironic and sickening that these supposed icons of "history" are supported by groups that glorify the two greatest enemies the USA has ever faced:
a) The treasonous, racist, enslaving South, to protect a horror that much of the world had already outlawed, who were willing to bring about the death of hundreds of thousands so the rich could keep slaves. This is glorified by the oldest and most deadly of terrorists this nation has ever seen, the KKK. Estimates range as high as 6,000 murders by the KKK, twice 9/11's death count.
and
b) the Nazis, whom it took a a war that slaughtered over 55 MILLION people to stop, who hated EVERYTHING about the modern age and enlightenment, who hated everything American (except the slaughter of the Native Americans and, of course Segregation), who hated our Bill of Rights, our Democracy, our Freedom.
And yet we tolerate angry White men, eager to murder and commit ethnic cleansing for some sort of "purity" avidly embracing these 2 mortal enemies who made war on our United States.
Article 3, Section 3 of the Constitution:
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
Clearly the KKK and American Nazi Movement are adhering to the 2 greatest enemies of the United States: The CSA and Nazi Germany.
a) The treasonous, racist, enslaving South, to protect a horror that much of the world had already outlawed, who were willing to bring about the death of hundreds of thousands so the rich could keep slaves. This is glorified by the oldest and most deadly of terrorists this nation has ever seen, the KKK. Estimates range as high as 6,000 murders by the KKK, twice 9/11's death count.
and
b) the Nazis, whom it took a a war that slaughtered over 55 MILLION people to stop, who hated EVERYTHING about the modern age and enlightenment, who hated everything American (except the slaughter of the Native Americans and, of course Segregation), who hated our Bill of Rights, our Democracy, our Freedom.
And yet we tolerate angry White men, eager to murder and commit ethnic cleansing for some sort of "purity" avidly embracing these 2 mortal enemies who made war on our United States.
Article 3, Section 3 of the Constitution:
"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
Clearly the KKK and American Nazi Movement are adhering to the 2 greatest enemies of the United States: The CSA and Nazi Germany.
8
There's a water fountain in the Dallas City Hall with a sign over it left over from the 50's. The sign assigns a particular race as a requirement for its use. Should we take it down? No. It's a reminder of our fragility. In Hamburg there is a bombed out church left in ruins after the Allies fire bombed the city. Should it be taken down? In California a internment camp remains. Bulldoze it? In Fort Smith the gallows under Judge Parker that hung so many Native Americans is still displayed as a reminder of our racism at the time of West expansion. Bad taste? This editorial irresponsibly compares Brownshirt Nazism to generals in our Civil War. Our Civil War. Not theirs. The problem of slavery started with the birth of this country and statues of Washington and Jefferson abound. Most of the momnuments were placed to heal a divided country after the war. The irony of removing them in a country so divided as we are is glaring.
4
"Most of the monuments were placed to heal a country divided by war". What an insane comment. You actually think that southern African Americans looking at statues of Confederate generals felt "healed"?
2
Wrong. Most of the statutes were raised during Jim Crow, to intimidate black people that were striving for their equal rights.
2
Daine, the placement of statues was not an effort to "heal a divided country after the war." They were put up after the failure of reconstruction and the southern enactment of Jim Crow laws and social codes. The statues were in fact, a second act of treason against the USA-- a way Southerners flouted the result of the Civil War, and thumb their noses at "yankee" ideals of equality and justice for people they thought inferior to themselves by virtue of their skin color. To put a fine point on it, Washington and Jefferson BUILT this nation, Confederates like Lee aimed to DESTROY it. Their acts of treason belong in history museums, not in town squares.
1
Are there any statues of Adolf Hitler in German? Do Germans need statues of the Third Reich to reminded them of the evils and horrors of Hitler's regime?
Please... you speak foolishly.
Please... you speak foolishly.
3
"White mind-set?"
How would you like it, Roger, if people started talking about the "black mind-set?" Actually, about 80 years ago, Nazi's used to talk about the "Jewish mind-set" - the way the Jews thought - and you know language and prejudice like that led to some very bad things. People should have taken it as a warning when people started speaking contemptuously of the Jews back in the 30's, just as you, today, are speaking contemptuously of white people.
You, Mr. Cohen, are a prejudiced man. You have expressed your hatred. Don't expect anything good to come of it, because like begets like in this world.
How would you like it, Roger, if people started talking about the "black mind-set?" Actually, about 80 years ago, Nazi's used to talk about the "Jewish mind-set" - the way the Jews thought - and you know language and prejudice like that led to some very bad things. People should have taken it as a warning when people started speaking contemptuously of the Jews back in the 30's, just as you, today, are speaking contemptuously of white people.
You, Mr. Cohen, are a prejudiced man. You have expressed your hatred. Don't expect anything good to come of it, because like begets like in this world.
3
If a person sees an injustice, they must speak out. If a person remains silent, they are allowing said injustice to continue. How could you have not heard of "welfare queens" (Regan), blacks having inferior intellect, blacks being lazy, racial profiling blacks ie driving while black, all of which are forms of "talking of the black mindset". This has gone on for decades in the party of the angry white man, GOP. Perhaps you should visit your own prejudices prior to accusing others.
This year marks the centennial of the 1917 East St Louis Riot/Pogrom. It was one of the most horrific and brutal episodes of mob violence and attempted ethnic cleansing in the history of the United States. We have had a difficult time getting national attention to this historical event.
This summer, we broke ground for a monument that will remind the world of this tragedy and of the human spirit that refused then and that continues to refuse to be debased and defeated.
There is more to US history that ought to be memorialized than statues of warriors and celebrations of war can tell.
This summer, we broke ground for a monument that will remind the world of this tragedy and of the human spirit that refused then and that continues to refuse to be debased and defeated.
There is more to US history that ought to be memorialized than statues of warriors and celebrations of war can tell.
5
A couple of years ago we shuddered at ISIS destruction -- iconoclasm -- of art and architecture in the Middle East. A few years before, we were appalled at Taliban destruction of ancient Buddhist shrines. Now such destruction has come to our own shores, and here is an op ed that, if not wholly condemning it, at least, equivocates. One can readily understand and be sympathetic with the racial and historical sensitivities involved. But who can think that those Romans and Byzantines pulled down in Palmyra or the Buddhas in Afghanistan…etc., and the powers that originally put them there, had a wealth of good intentions and gentleness behind them which our own confederate or union generals, soldiers, physicians, mayors…etc. were uniquely lacking?
3
"Removing Confederate statues of defeated generals doesn't remove history—it removes the denial of history!"
This is a quote from a comment on this page by fellow South Carolinian, Walter Rhett. He sums it up perfectly. In a survey of all the statues on the State House grounds, one fact jumps out at you; of the 10 statues, 5 of them are of men are who either fought for slavery, or fought for segregation. Of the 5 who are not in this category, are, George Washington who owned slaves; Marion Sims who was a pioneering surgeon who neither owned slaves or defended slavery, but who performed cruel experiments on slave women; the Palmetto regiment of the Mexican War, many of whose members owned slaves; fallen SC police officers; and Captain Swanson Lunsford whose grave site just happened to be where the Statehouse was built.
There are no monument to the the opponents of slavery or segregation. No statue of the Grimke sisters, Robert Smalls or Judge Waites Waring. But there is a statue to the one military unit that fought against slavery, the 54th Regiment - but it's in Boston.
Let's remember history, but let's remember ALL of history.
This is a quote from a comment on this page by fellow South Carolinian, Walter Rhett. He sums it up perfectly. In a survey of all the statues on the State House grounds, one fact jumps out at you; of the 10 statues, 5 of them are of men are who either fought for slavery, or fought for segregation. Of the 5 who are not in this category, are, George Washington who owned slaves; Marion Sims who was a pioneering surgeon who neither owned slaves or defended slavery, but who performed cruel experiments on slave women; the Palmetto regiment of the Mexican War, many of whose members owned slaves; fallen SC police officers; and Captain Swanson Lunsford whose grave site just happened to be where the Statehouse was built.
There are no monument to the the opponents of slavery or segregation. No statue of the Grimke sisters, Robert Smalls or Judge Waites Waring. But there is a statue to the one military unit that fought against slavery, the 54th Regiment - but it's in Boston.
Let's remember history, but let's remember ALL of history.
10
The wall Trump and his supporters want to build is just a new confederate monument. Why do we not learn from the past. We tried racism, limited immigration, slogans like "Make America Great Again," and right wing Government in the past. The results were the Civil War, Jim Crow, Chinese Exclusion and Japanese interment camps. All Were blights on the history of the the USA and shameful history. Why are we repeating bad history. We need immigration to continue the positive history of this country.
2
Very good. You cannot beat history, but you must learn from it. Taking away the statues will not change the past, but they should be in museums where they represent the past, and not the present.
2
Even intelligent people have been (mis)led to believe the Civil War was really about "states' rights." Revisionist history has long been a tool for those who would reconfigure the past to suit their own agendas. Just consider the repetitive meme about the founders and their "Christian nation." As much as anything else, we need to relearn our own history, restore civics classes in our high schools, and promote "historic literacy" to go along with numeracy as fundamental elements of an informed citizenry.
9
Removal of the Confederate statues will not change the mindset of hatred that has been fermenting for over 150 years. The South did not give up slavery because they finally realized the inhumanity of it they gave up slavery because they were beaten and beaten badly. The South was destroyed by the Civil War and some in the South have not forgotten and have passed this hatred down from generation to generation. This is not to say that there isn't racism in the North. NJ and NYC has seen it's share of riots and unrest also.
What Trump has done is empowered this hatred so now it not just spoken in the privacy of homes but out in public and social media.
Trump didn't cause this hatred he just mainstreamed it and this country is all the worse for that.
What Trump has done is empowered this hatred so now it not just spoken in the privacy of homes but out in public and social media.
Trump didn't cause this hatred he just mainstreamed it and this country is all the worse for that.
9
Preserve the statues, yes; but preserve them in museums of slavery, from coast to coast, which honestly and accurately portray the history and fate of Africans forcibly brought to America, and of their descendants. Place them in their true context, not in the mythology of glory; don't put them on pedestals, but place them in subterranean displays for visitors to look down upon, surrounded by exhibits that place them in their proper context.
So much of our nation's present tragedy has grown out of our inability to confront our history, and our shame.
So much of our nation's present tragedy has grown out of our inability to confront our history, and our shame.
5
A few weeks before the Terryville (CT) Fair, I contacted the Lions Club asking that they do not allow sales of Confederate Flag items be offered for sale at their fair. No response. I followed up with a letter to town Mayor Merchant and the Town Council. No response to me. However, the local newspaper, Waterbury Rep-American, contacted me and wrote a front page story about my concern. Two council members shrugged as if to say," No big deal." The Mayor gave apolitical response. He said he was opposed to "controversial material" being offered. Apparently, he did not wish to offend a part of his power base. The Lions Club refused to talk with the reporter. Yes Confederate memorabilia was present at the fair. I am not finished with my opposition to sales of materials glorifying hatred.
8
If only these statues were part of the immoral and sordid "past." Instead, year after year they hold up to American's black citizens that they remain an oppressed minority: for the majority often making even less money than poor white citizens, at the receiving end of conscious and unconscious bias and physical violence at the hands of police and the Courts, and deprived of their right to vote by a variety of underhanded methods that the Supreme Court from its insulated height refuse to see.
Glorifying defiance of national law and order is what these statues represent. Rubbing the noses of blacks in a continuing less than equal "freedom" is what they were intended to do. Only their removal can show an earnest, good faith effort to move past the resentment filled history that many white Southerners glory in or are happy to accept with a shrug of the shoulder.
Statues to Columbus etc. are in a completely different category and cannot be compared to the glorification in statuary of those insistent upon enslaving others for economic gain.
Glorifying defiance of national law and order is what these statues represent. Rubbing the noses of blacks in a continuing less than equal "freedom" is what they were intended to do. Only their removal can show an earnest, good faith effort to move past the resentment filled history that many white Southerners glory in or are happy to accept with a shrug of the shoulder.
Statues to Columbus etc. are in a completely different category and cannot be compared to the glorification in statuary of those insistent upon enslaving others for economic gain.
2
I know a few folks of Native American ancestry, who very much believe that Columbus was the oppressor and destroyer of their people.
Several cities have gotten rid of Columbus Day as a holiday and renamed it "Indigenous People's Day".
Several cities have gotten rid of Columbus Day as a holiday and renamed it "Indigenous People's Day".
Most of this statuary dates from Jim Crow...they were erected to signify and demonstration subjugation. To adopt the narrative that they were "erected to propagate ... Confederate valor" is to accept a lie which attempts to complicate a simple situation. If we reject Jim Crow and the spirit animating it, we must reject its cultural tools as well as its legal ones.
This distinguishes the Jim Crow era confederate statuary from other monuments and memorials to slave holders; these need discussion and perhaps change, but having been erected or adopted independent of deliberate racial animus, they are a different case.
This distinguishes the Jim Crow era confederate statuary from other monuments and memorials to slave holders; these need discussion and perhaps change, but having been erected or adopted independent of deliberate racial animus, they are a different case.
2
Short of aspiring, monuments can indeed educate. And destruction of moments, and by extension history itself, should be loathed. It can, however, also be complicated, as their destruction has an unmistakable Robespierran quality. The sanctifying of the "great truth" by permitting the continued reverence to America's most celebrated dividers is a testament to the inconvenience of history. President Trump suggested that we'll-meaning innocence could at times, unwittingly, find itself associating with hate and ignorance. But Trump was wrong to sell Americans short. We are clear-eyed about having values being hijacked, and any monument that celebrates that, should come down.
2
We need a debate about the purpose of public art. Is it to idolize? To honor? To tell a story? And if so, whose story and from whose point of view? At what point does the story of one side wipe out the story of another? And how do we provide the complex context that is the truth?
2
I take the view that the Usan nation must live with the Good and Evil in its past. No need to try and be more catholic than the Pope in denying the slavery, genocide of the descendants of the first settlers of North America, religious persecution of the Quakers in New England, and the murders of the Loyalists during the War of Independence.
Let the Confederate statues stand as a reminder of the past and warning against its repetition in the future.
Let the Confederate statues stand as a reminder of the past and warning against its repetition in the future.
2
I'm tired of the guilt-ridden, liberal approach to life that says everything can be legislated and that problems can be immediately resolved by executive order, whether at the national or personal level. Taking down statues won't change history any more than declaring a "gun free zone" will prevent a lunatic from shooting up a school.
3
I think it's time to have a national museum telling the story of slavery in the US. Outside the museum, there would be a park with all the confederate statues gathered in a circle. At the center of this circle, to provide context, would be three new sets of statues: the first a slave being whipped almost to death; the second a child being sold away from his mother; and the third a female slave being raped by her master.
This is what the men portrayed by the statues were defending. Let them do so again in a more forthright way.
This is what the men portrayed by the statues were defending. Let them do so again in a more forthright way.
9
Faulkner's observation about the past not being past was brought home to me in a coffee shop in Fredericksburg VA. We were sat chatting with a local couple and I observed that construction work must be revealing lots of remains. The young lady said yes and it was "a real shame" they were burying Confederate remains in the same graves as those of Union soldiers. As an immigrant albeit of over 30 years at the time, this took me aback. Rather like the electrician in upstate NY who told me "can't trust dem rebel boys"
1
One problem with the Confederate statues issue is the notion that it is a regional Southern problem rather than an original American national conundrum that began with the birth of the nation.
The one and only time that I saw and heard Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. alive and in person was at a South Side Chicago Park in August, 1966. Against the opposition of many state and local black and white politicians and pastors Dr. King was condemned and criticized for bringing his civil rights campaign to the North when racism and bigotry were Southern "problems".
Dr. King began his remarks by noting that "Any time that you are south of the Canadian border that you are in the South in terms of racism and bigotry." Chicago was long the most "racially" aka color segregated major American city. Dr. King was met with chanting white mob violence in a white ethnic Chicago neighborhood that he proclaimed as more hateful than anything that he ever confronted in the South.
The end of the Civil War was followed by a brief period of regional racially colored reconciliation aka Reconstruction. Followed by a long period of separate and unequal Jim Crow that came to an end during the recent Civil Rights era that peaked in the 1960's when Barack and Michelle Obama were born.
History is always dynamically interpreted through the context and perspective of the present. That is what is happening here. And it is healthy and necessary.
The one and only time that I saw and heard Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. alive and in person was at a South Side Chicago Park in August, 1966. Against the opposition of many state and local black and white politicians and pastors Dr. King was condemned and criticized for bringing his civil rights campaign to the North when racism and bigotry were Southern "problems".
Dr. King began his remarks by noting that "Any time that you are south of the Canadian border that you are in the South in terms of racism and bigotry." Chicago was long the most "racially" aka color segregated major American city. Dr. King was met with chanting white mob violence in a white ethnic Chicago neighborhood that he proclaimed as more hateful than anything that he ever confronted in the South.
The end of the Civil War was followed by a brief period of regional racially colored reconciliation aka Reconstruction. Followed by a long period of separate and unequal Jim Crow that came to an end during the recent Civil Rights era that peaked in the 1960's when Barack and Michelle Obama were born.
History is always dynamically interpreted through the context and perspective of the present. That is what is happening here. And it is healthy and necessary.
4
The removal of statues from places of honor is not about the denial of history, it is removal of the honor given to dishonorable men and the things they did.
Every Confederate Soldier was a traitor to the United States, bore arms against the United States and many shot and killed Soldiers of the United States Army -do not call it the Union Army. I see no rush to erect statues to the lost cause of Nazism or the Viet Cong or the Taliban, nor should there be.
We need to study and remember the past but we must be honest about it, from the real cause of the Confederacy (racism and slavery) to the fact that there were race riots in places like New York City during the Civil War. We need to learn of the political deal cut in Washington to end the Reconstruction and occupation of the South because it was politically and financially expensive. We need to learn of the complicity of Northern states in tolerating Jim Crow in all of it's forms. And we need to learn of the systemic repression of millions under Jim Crow and the disenfranchisement by his younger cousin James Crow, Esquire.
Racism and Slavery were not just sins of the Southern States and are deeply embedded in the history of our country. Racism against the First Peoples also needs to be honestly dealt with, taught and learned. Andrew Jackson- who ordered the Trail of Tears marches over the ruling of the Supreme Court - should also not be honored.
Every Confederate Soldier was a traitor to the United States, bore arms against the United States and many shot and killed Soldiers of the United States Army -do not call it the Union Army. I see no rush to erect statues to the lost cause of Nazism or the Viet Cong or the Taliban, nor should there be.
We need to study and remember the past but we must be honest about it, from the real cause of the Confederacy (racism and slavery) to the fact that there were race riots in places like New York City during the Civil War. We need to learn of the political deal cut in Washington to end the Reconstruction and occupation of the South because it was politically and financially expensive. We need to learn of the complicity of Northern states in tolerating Jim Crow in all of it's forms. And we need to learn of the systemic repression of millions under Jim Crow and the disenfranchisement by his younger cousin James Crow, Esquire.
Racism and Slavery were not just sins of the Southern States and are deeply embedded in the history of our country. Racism against the First Peoples also needs to be honestly dealt with, taught and learned. Andrew Jackson- who ordered the Trail of Tears marches over the ruling of the Supreme Court - should also not be honored.
9
These are decisions that should be made community by community.
Generally, I would like to see them go. But context is everything. Some are surely not problematic. For example:
Robert E. Lee's home in Arlington, VA, is part of the National Park Service. The full discussion there of his life clearly presents the picture of slavery. John Kennedy's grave is at the foot of the hill, in a space that was part of the Lee property at one time.
In Ohio, just around the corner from Marblehead Lighthouse on Lake Erie, there is Johnson Island. Located there is a prisoner of war camp that Confederates were shipped to. The buildings are long gone, but the Confederate cemetery remains. The last burials happened decades after the war, i.e,, Confederates who decided to stay in Ohio. There is a statue in the cemetery of a Confederate soldier/guard--an unknown sentry of sorts, watching the graves of his fallen fellow soldiers.
It is one of the places I take West Coast visitors to see. And we marvel that a Confederate prison was so far north, with islands of Canada offshore in Lake Erie.
Generally, I would like to see them go. But context is everything. Some are surely not problematic. For example:
Robert E. Lee's home in Arlington, VA, is part of the National Park Service. The full discussion there of his life clearly presents the picture of slavery. John Kennedy's grave is at the foot of the hill, in a space that was part of the Lee property at one time.
In Ohio, just around the corner from Marblehead Lighthouse on Lake Erie, there is Johnson Island. Located there is a prisoner of war camp that Confederates were shipped to. The buildings are long gone, but the Confederate cemetery remains. The last burials happened decades after the war, i.e,, Confederates who decided to stay in Ohio. There is a statue in the cemetery of a Confederate soldier/guard--an unknown sentry of sorts, watching the graves of his fallen fellow soldiers.
It is one of the places I take West Coast visitors to see. And we marvel that a Confederate prison was so far north, with islands of Canada offshore in Lake Erie.
4
Jean, the angry vindictive left -- in their Trump derangement -- intends fully to topple and destroy EVERY Confederate statues -- yes, even that "unknown soldier" in a Confederate cemetery, practically on the Canadian border.
Better go photograph it NOW before the left melts it down.
Better go photograph it NOW before the left melts it down.
The quest of identity politics is not, or not only, truth and justice for the historically oppressed. The quest is also an effort to glorify victimhood, to indulge in self-pity, to lobby for reparations paid today for injuries suffered by past generations, to transform the blood and tears of others into political advantage. The causes of black civil rights, woman's rights, gay rights, and transgender rights are all righteous causes, but the pursuit of them quickly becomes muddied in politics. Trump has succeeded by applying the standard roadmap of identity politics to the white working class. The fact that he has been successful, and that white working class identity politics is so ugly in practice, should give pause to those who defend the many other varieties of identity politics that Cohen champions. The cause may be righteous, but the politics is often ugly. Division for political gain strains the ties that bind us together. When you draw lines in a society and label cultural and ethnic groups victims and oppressors based on nothing but their ancestry, you sow the seeds of the harvest that Trump is reaping now.
2
Soldiers who fought for the Confederacy were not making a choice between slavery and abolition. Slavery was legal in 1861 and was in no danger of being abolished. The slave states could have blocked any constitutional amendment to end slavery, which would have required ratification by three-fourths of the states. There were 17 free states and 15 slave states in 1860. (Fifteen states could block a constitutional amendment today, even though there are 50 states.) The Civil War was fought to end secession, not slavery. Abraham Lincoln tried to prevent the Civil War by backing the Corwin Amendment, which was proposed in 1860 to persuade Southern states to remain in the Union. The amendment, which was submitted by New York Senator William Seward, read as follows: “No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress power to abolish or interfere, within any State, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.” In his first inaugural address Lincoln declared that he had “no objection” to the Corwin Amendment, nor that it be made forever unamendable, The Corwin Amendment won two-thirds support in both the House and the Senate in early 1861, but Southern states seceded before the amendment could be presented to the states for ratification. If the South had not seceded, there would have been no war, and slavery would have endured for another generation or two.
2
Corwin's amendment was proposed on February 27, 1861. South Carolina had seceded in December 1860, and Louisiana, Alabama, Mississippi, and Florida had all seceded in January 1861. Texas had seceded on February 1, 1861.
Secession was a reality before the amendment occurred. Secession occurred because of the November 1860 election of Abraham Lincoln, who had become famous by advocating a negotiated end to slavery. Lincoln's election occurred because the Southern Democrats had split from the Northern Democrats specifically over the issue of the Southerners' unacceptable demand for an amendment preserving the rights of slaveowners.
Secession was a reality before the amendment occurred. Secession occurred because of the November 1860 election of Abraham Lincoln, who had become famous by advocating a negotiated end to slavery. Lincoln's election occurred because the Southern Democrats had split from the Northern Democrats specifically over the issue of the Southerners' unacceptable demand for an amendment preserving the rights of slaveowners.
2
A very unlikely scenario and a misreading of our history. Abolitionist sentiment would not have waited another two generations. Apparently you regret that
1
The American Civil War was unique n the way it ended.
The leaders of he South were not put up against a wall or imprisoned for life.
Ordinary soldiers and their officers swore allegiance to the US and went home unhindered.
Lincoln spoke not of vengeance bur reconciliation.
The South turned their back on all of that good will simply because White supremacy was more important to them and still is.
The voting rights bill of 1964 made the South Republican not only because of race but also because it outlawed discrimination because of sex.
Women and Blacks given equal rights was simply not acceptable to the majority of Whites, men and women in the bible belt.
The CSA statues and monuments are the least symptoms of the disease of White and male supremacy.
The leaders of he South were not put up against a wall or imprisoned for life.
Ordinary soldiers and their officers swore allegiance to the US and went home unhindered.
Lincoln spoke not of vengeance bur reconciliation.
The South turned their back on all of that good will simply because White supremacy was more important to them and still is.
The voting rights bill of 1964 made the South Republican not only because of race but also because it outlawed discrimination because of sex.
Women and Blacks given equal rights was simply not acceptable to the majority of Whites, men and women in the bible belt.
The CSA statues and monuments are the least symptoms of the disease of White and male supremacy.
4
The power of the Holocaust museums I have visited has been in their simplicity: photographs of suffering that are unimaginable without such presentation, screaming never again. It is a deliberate aspect of the modern Jewish identity, shown and reshown to every Jew and non-Jew who will look, remember of what mankind is capable, never again.
The idea of building a similar facet into American identity is moral. Too much pride can inure a nation to its own faults and lead to incautious action. We might be stronger with Slavery museums of stark suffering, embedded in the curriculum added to the itinerary of visiting dignitaries, we are the new America, we remember, never again.
I wonder though if there should be at least one tableau that includes all America's racial mix, in chains, under the whip; because the message is not limited to what was done to one race but rather is warning of what could be done to any and all, never again.
The idea of building a similar facet into American identity is moral. Too much pride can inure a nation to its own faults and lead to incautious action. We might be stronger with Slavery museums of stark suffering, embedded in the curriculum added to the itinerary of visiting dignitaries, we are the new America, we remember, never again.
I wonder though if there should be at least one tableau that includes all America's racial mix, in chains, under the whip; because the message is not limited to what was done to one race but rather is warning of what could be done to any and all, never again.
1
It remains difficult to educate young people about the broader truths of their pasts if we have narrow-minded state school boards controlling textbook entries: http://www.salon.com/2013/03/16/the_south_still_lies_about_the_civil_war/ .
Teaching history with a clear and wide-angle lens is a monumental task (on so many levels): https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/03/the-problem-with-h... .
We can build the equivalent of Holocaust Museums--institutions that take on the horrors and historical misdirection--for our Civil War. This is hard to do in a climate that favors exclusion of portions of the populace based on skin color or religion. There is one recent, national example of how this history can be integrated and presented: https://nmaahc.si.edu/ (National Museum of African American History and Culture).
We are not the only nation to have similar problems, but others have done a better job of attacking demons from their past: https://aeon.co/essays/dare-we-compare-american-slavery-to-the-holocaust ("History and guilt:
Can America face up to the terrible reality of slavery in the way that Germany has faced up to the Holocaust? " by Susan Neiman).
Teaching history with a clear and wide-angle lens is a monumental task (on so many levels): https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/03/the-problem-with-h... .
We can build the equivalent of Holocaust Museums--institutions that take on the horrors and historical misdirection--for our Civil War. This is hard to do in a climate that favors exclusion of portions of the populace based on skin color or religion. There is one recent, national example of how this history can be integrated and presented: https://nmaahc.si.edu/ (National Museum of African American History and Culture).
We are not the only nation to have similar problems, but others have done a better job of attacking demons from their past: https://aeon.co/essays/dare-we-compare-american-slavery-to-the-holocaust ("History and guilt:
Can America face up to the terrible reality of slavery in the way that Germany has faced up to the Holocaust? " by Susan Neiman).
2
Put them in a museum - it makes sense. Then watch the protests that demand they be removed from there.
2
Read the comments here -- the hatred, the rage against the South -- you'd think the Civil War happened yesterday and was fought in the North.
The left will not be satisfied until they toppled and DESTROY every CIvil War statues -- probably taking a few UNION statues along! -- because they are barbarians who seek only to destroy.
The left will not be satisfied until they toppled and DESTROY every CIvil War statues -- probably taking a few UNION statues along! -- because they are barbarians who seek only to destroy.
Collect all of the statues and place them in a "Jim Crow" museum.
These statues can then be viewed in their proper context by anyone anytime.
This way history is not 'erased', and the reverence or disgust of the folks represented by the statuary is in the mind of the beholder.
These statues can then be viewed in their proper context by anyone anytime.
This way history is not 'erased', and the reverence or disgust of the folks represented by the statuary is in the mind of the beholder.
1
Stop drumming up the hatred about ridiculous Confederate statues when we have so many more important, first rate issues in this country. The statues represent history and they are up many years. Add more commemorative statues if that is so important.
3
Every monument to the slavocracy is offensive to me and must come down
You know who I haven't heard crying foul at the unspeakable dismantling of our historical heritage by the removal of these statues?
Historians.
Historians.
1
The communities worshiping these Civil War statues are like five-year-olds with a security blanket. They will never grow up until the blanket is taken away.
3
I hope you say that, when the opposition in revenge, topples or blows up the statues of Martin Luther King Jr. and other black or liberal heroes.
I never understood the significance of monuments, especially the ones which depict men who took us to war. Whether they were on the "right" side, whatever that is suppose to mean, or the "wrong", again, a very subjective point of view, the adornment and idolatry of simply boggles the mind, at least mine.
What is the need? A simple cemetery marker suffices for those who gave their lives for the average grunt. Why not the same for those who led them? The greatest Generals are no better than the men, and it was always men back then, whom they led. We who served do not need any monument to our service. I say take that money and give it to the living, those wounded veterans, both physically and mentally, who now must live the rest of their lives with the horrors of war deeply etched forever in their minds.
As for memorials, the ones who pay reverence to all, I am most impressed with the deeply moving black wall in remembrance to those who serve in Vietnam. It evokes the somberness in its reflection upon war. But the most moving ever memorial is the one which lies over the battleship Arizona in Pearl Harbor. The mighty dreadnought became the final resting place entombing all those who perished on that day of Infamy on what was a peaceful Sunday morning in December of 1941. Visit if you can. You will be awestruck.
DD
Manhattan
What is the need? A simple cemetery marker suffices for those who gave their lives for the average grunt. Why not the same for those who led them? The greatest Generals are no better than the men, and it was always men back then, whom they led. We who served do not need any monument to our service. I say take that money and give it to the living, those wounded veterans, both physically and mentally, who now must live the rest of their lives with the horrors of war deeply etched forever in their minds.
As for memorials, the ones who pay reverence to all, I am most impressed with the deeply moving black wall in remembrance to those who serve in Vietnam. It evokes the somberness in its reflection upon war. But the most moving ever memorial is the one which lies over the battleship Arizona in Pearl Harbor. The mighty dreadnought became the final resting place entombing all those who perished on that day of Infamy on what was a peaceful Sunday morning in December of 1941. Visit if you can. You will be awestruck.
DD
Manhattan
38
This country loves its War Dead. Its War Living, not so much.
1
Dear B. T.:
War seems all about the going not the coming home. These monuments to people who have led US into battle says to me we love to glorify war, which is essentially a failure to obtain peace.
Now with the miracle of medical marvels we have veterans returning from the battlefield who would never have made it just decades ago. Now we have the obligation to take care of them for the rest of their lives. They being so young, that is a lifetime of care. But that is the price we must pay, and the burden this nation must bear when it commits itself to commit the worse act against humanity conceivable.
DD
Manhattan
War seems all about the going not the coming home. These monuments to people who have led US into battle says to me we love to glorify war, which is essentially a failure to obtain peace.
Now with the miracle of medical marvels we have veterans returning from the battlefield who would never have made it just decades ago. Now we have the obligation to take care of them for the rest of their lives. They being so young, that is a lifetime of care. But that is the price we must pay, and the burden this nation must bear when it commits itself to commit the worse act against humanity conceivable.
DD
Manhattan
"This is the cause for which Gen. Robert E. Lee fought"
I am aware of no statement by Robert E. Lee that he was fighting to preserve slavery. Here is what he said when he resigned his commission:
"With all my devotion to the Union, and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the army, and, save in defence of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope that I may never be called on to draw my sword."
I am aware of no statement by Robert E. Lee that he was fighting to preserve slavery. Here is what he said when he resigned his commission:
"With all my devotion to the Union, and the feeling of loyalty and duty of an American citizen, I have not been able to make up my mind to raise my hand against my relatives, my children, my home. I have therefore resigned my commission in the army, and, save in defence of my native State, with the sincere hope that my poor services may never be needed, I hope that I may never be called on to draw my sword."
5
Paper over the obvious. Lee was a slave holder and a traitor.
4
So he lied. What does that prove?
2
The founding documents of the Confederacy clearly say that the secession was to preserve slavery. Robert L. Lee knew that and by fighting for the Confederacy he was fighting for slavery.
4
Between 1940 and 1960, the black poverty rate fell from 87% to 47%.
During this period Jim Crow reigned supreme, many blacks could not vote even in the North, discrimination was legal everywhere, and of course, there were plenty of Confederate monuments.
OK, now we have the Civil Rights movement. Blacks everywhere gain the vote, get admitted to colleges, find good jobs at large corporations. Economic progress is continuing, racists are in retreat everywhere.
Fast forward 50 years. While there is a large group of middle-class blacks, progress seems to have halted. The remaining impoverished blacks are shunned by employers, and nobody wants to live near them. Their neighborhoods are marred by violent crime and bad behavior of all sorts.
So what do we do? Tear down statues? Stigmatize well-meaning liberal college professors? Throw rocks at police officers? The sensible part of the electorate is considers this complete idiocy. The black underclass needs education and jobs, not mindless political advocacy.
During this period Jim Crow reigned supreme, many blacks could not vote even in the North, discrimination was legal everywhere, and of course, there were plenty of Confederate monuments.
OK, now we have the Civil Rights movement. Blacks everywhere gain the vote, get admitted to colleges, find good jobs at large corporations. Economic progress is continuing, racists are in retreat everywhere.
Fast forward 50 years. While there is a large group of middle-class blacks, progress seems to have halted. The remaining impoverished blacks are shunned by employers, and nobody wants to live near them. Their neighborhoods are marred by violent crime and bad behavior of all sorts.
So what do we do? Tear down statues? Stigmatize well-meaning liberal college professors? Throw rocks at police officers? The sensible part of the electorate is considers this complete idiocy. The black underclass needs education and jobs, not mindless political advocacy.
8
Statues are erected to commemorate and honor a role model of society; a human being who is an emblem of the specific social ideals of their time. However, as time progresses and new role models come into place, ideals change. People begin to realize that some ideals are not really “ideal,” they are just a reflection of the past. People realize just how far society has come, and how newfound research and communication has brought a new era of understanding and acceptance. Now, however, many are struggling with the difference between commemoration and history. The famous saying, “we cannot change our past” is simply factual, however it does not mean that we cannot change who we literally and figuratively put up on a pedestal. Society’s ideals change therefore it is only natural for role models to change, indicating that someone who was once idealized in society may now be a representation of what the community is looking to progress from. During the reign of Robert E. Lee, the South thrived on slavery and the racist hierarchy; so what Lee fought for was considered “ideal.” Now many people realize that slavery and racism are simply against human rights and cannot exist in a nation. Many do not want to commemorate Lee anymore. Just because someone is no longer commemorated, does not mean they are removed from history. When Lee’s statue was removed from the public eye it replaced the “ideal” of racism with the new “ideal” of acknowledgment and acceptance.
48
"Unhappy is the land that breeds no hero.
No. Unhappy is the land that needs a hero."
- Bertolt Brecht, 'Galileo'
No. Unhappy is the land that needs a hero."
- Bertolt Brecht, 'Galileo'
We would be a much stronger country if we worried less about our ancestors and more about our neighbors.
My fellow White Americans: About 47 million Americans identify as Black. Put aside your own feelings for a moment.
Is it really too much to ask that we show a little empathy and respect towards our fellow Black Americans by removing these statutes from public spaces of honor?
Is it that hard to understand how these statutes make your countrymen feel given what they symbolize and the reason why they were erected in the first place?
Of course it's not. Take them down. It is the right thing to do. We all know it. So do it, if not for yourself then for others who have had to live with that insult for far too long.
My fellow White Americans: About 47 million Americans identify as Black. Put aside your own feelings for a moment.
Is it really too much to ask that we show a little empathy and respect towards our fellow Black Americans by removing these statutes from public spaces of honor?
Is it that hard to understand how these statutes make your countrymen feel given what they symbolize and the reason why they were erected in the first place?
Of course it's not. Take them down. It is the right thing to do. We all know it. So do it, if not for yourself then for others who have had to live with that insult for far too long.
224
@LT.... plenty of white Americans already agree with you. We don't have to put aside our feelings for a moment. There are plenty of whites and people of all races and ethnicities who turn out for protest marches against biased treatment of minorities by law enforcement, etc.
1
My ancestors came from Ireland and Italy; I do not identify as white.
Categorizing people by color is very convenient.
It less than useful, but who cares, right?
Categorizing people by color is very convenient.
It less than useful, but who cares, right?
1
If it weren't for Mexicans and the trans-gendered, there would be no one else to torment!
1
Whether you agree with the removal of the Confederate statues or not, the premise that removing statues is an effort to "erase history" is absurd. To advance this discussion, we simply cannot let this premise stand.
The very existence of Confederate statues in public spaces has, in effect, provided a blinkered view of American history, obfuscating the root cause of the Civil War and the untold suffering of slavery--a intergenerational trauma that continues to be passed down. Rather than "erasing history", tearing down the Confederate statues helps Americans see anew the wounds of its own history.
The very existence of Confederate statues in public spaces has, in effect, provided a blinkered view of American history, obfuscating the root cause of the Civil War and the untold suffering of slavery--a intergenerational trauma that continues to be passed down. Rather than "erasing history", tearing down the Confederate statues helps Americans see anew the wounds of its own history.
10
Bunk. These statues are our history. Removing them denies the history of the states that choose to secede because they were unable to accept rule by what they considered to be a foreign power that did not represent their interests and culture. I assume you had no problem with the Revolutionary War which separated the colonies from what they considered to be an oppressive government. The Confederate states felt likewise about the federal government. Removing statues and monuments commemorating the heroes of the Confederacy denies their right to express and act on their beliefs. You cannot sanitize history to make you feel better.
3
The bunk is yours Paul. The South didn't secede because they felt the government was oppressive but because they didn't agree with Lincoln's policy of stopping the expansion of slavery.
The comparison to the American Revolution is spurious. The colonies had no representation in Parliament while the Declaratory Act stated Parliament's position that the colonial assemblies could be overridden at any time. The southern states had more than ample representation in all branches of government and a fair chance to contest the 1860 election.
The comparison to the American Revolution is spurious. The colonies had no representation in Parliament while the Declaratory Act stated Parliament's position that the colonial assemblies could be overridden at any time. The southern states had more than ample representation in all branches of government and a fair chance to contest the 1860 election.
The controversy over confederate statues in our public parks creates an opportunity not only to correct how we see history, but do so in a way that embraces a new perspective on democracy.
Most cities have a process through which parks are designated, designed and monument selected. Landscape architects are employed, as are artists to create monuments.
One of the reason that so many parks in the South honor the confederacy is because that process, along with all other municipal functions was carried out in a "Jim Crow" system.
The entire community, black and white was never engaged in deciding what image or message the town wanted to convey in its public spaces. And so the image of a noble cause advanced by brave warriors was often chosen for the many complex reasons that make up the white psyche of the old south.
But the new south, with full participation of its African American citizens can come together through local democratic processes and choose the images that best reflects who they are and what that community wants to recognize and commemorate.
Some statues will inevitably be removed. Others replaced, some simply taken off their pedestal and still others relegated to a less prominent space.
But the key is that a process that invites participation of the entire community, not only its white elites takes a thorny divisive issue and turns it into an opportunity for a new fully democratic voice to speak about our past as well as our future.
Most cities have a process through which parks are designated, designed and monument selected. Landscape architects are employed, as are artists to create monuments.
One of the reason that so many parks in the South honor the confederacy is because that process, along with all other municipal functions was carried out in a "Jim Crow" system.
The entire community, black and white was never engaged in deciding what image or message the town wanted to convey in its public spaces. And so the image of a noble cause advanced by brave warriors was often chosen for the many complex reasons that make up the white psyche of the old south.
But the new south, with full participation of its African American citizens can come together through local democratic processes and choose the images that best reflects who they are and what that community wants to recognize and commemorate.
Some statues will inevitably be removed. Others replaced, some simply taken off their pedestal and still others relegated to a less prominent space.
But the key is that a process that invites participation of the entire community, not only its white elites takes a thorny divisive issue and turns it into an opportunity for a new fully democratic voice to speak about our past as well as our future.
13
Dr. Spock--- excellent comment--- 'with the participation of the entire community'. That's how a democracy is supposed to work.
Should we venerate or educate? These statues are best in museums where people can use choice to see them, not have them imposed on them as they go about their business every day in cities. Museum tours and lectures can educate the public in our history much better than statues with a plaque. A positive process.
Should we venerate or educate? These statues are best in museums where people can use choice to see them, not have them imposed on them as they go about their business every day in cities. Museum tours and lectures can educate the public in our history much better than statues with a plaque. A positive process.
1
We're actually in the digital age. The arrival of the printing press is denied by none. We don't need statues to teach us history. Statues, like flags, are tribal totems. In a law-abiding society, we do not celebrate villains, unless they have some Robin-Hood quality about them, or some Bonny and Clyde thrill of violence and sex. I wonder if Roger Cohen spent enough time in GB to notice the plethora of memorials to world wars etc.? In a corner of the UK I knew well, as far west from Buckingham Palace as possible and still be be UK, there was a mighty memorial tree--it was planted to commemorate the fall of Sevastopol, the sign that the Crimean War was almost over. In recent years, some of the locals wanted to cut that tree down because it represented imperial domination. At the bottom of the hill, in the Republic, stands a statue to commemorate men who died fighting that imperial domination. Let's put as much energy into preserving books as we do to save statues.
3
I just wonder how many people that want to tear down statues of Robert E Lee know about his service to the country. He was a top graduate of the US Military Academy and served in the US Army for 32 years before the Civil War even started. He was a veteran general of the Mexican-American War and was also an Engineer. He remained loyal to his state of Virginia when the Civil War started. Certainly we would not erected statues of him if it had not been for his role in the Civil War but I think that many people do not understand his role in our country before the Civil War. They have a very myopic view of him.
27
While all that is true, I would point out that he had two major flaws: 1. his views on slavery as he explicitly supported it personally and through his acting as a general for the Confederacy and 2. his notion that his first loyalty was to his state of Virginia instead of the nation. That is perhaps one of the outcomes of the Civil War that nation should be above state. State focus is inherently parochial or provincial.
While I have great admiration for Lee as a general and he did some good things for the US before the war, his support of slavery and the Confederacy does appropriately erase those positives. He makes for an interesting biography, but he can't escape the heinous acts he committed by supporting the Confederacy at this level.
While I have great admiration for Lee as a general and he did some good things for the US before the war, his support of slavery and the Confederacy does appropriately erase those positives. He makes for an interesting biography, but he can't escape the heinous acts he committed by supporting the Confederacy at this level.
20
It is worth noting that Lee himself was against the creation of Confederate statues (as reported recently in these pages). Perhaps in this instance we should honor his wishes.
4
While all that you point out about Lee is true when the time came to choose he chose rebellion against his country and for the preservation of the heinous exploitation of humans as if they were animals, to diminish this is worse than myopic.
8
A monument to the Indian Removal Act and The Trail of Tears sits in our wallets.
It is a twenty dollar bill with Andrew Jackson's picture on it.
I once visited The Alamo. At some point I realized or learned that there is more than one way to, "Remember The Alamo".
My favorite monument to history, (at least on paper, or web sites) is the Chicxulub crater.
It is a twenty dollar bill with Andrew Jackson's picture on it.
I once visited The Alamo. At some point I realized or learned that there is more than one way to, "Remember The Alamo".
My favorite monument to history, (at least on paper, or web sites) is the Chicxulub crater.
3
Many of the statues were put up in the move to revision in the 1890s to 19teens as part of the revision from scurrlious rebels to noble cavaliers as a characterization of the Confederacy. It was a time of erasure of the 14th amendment as a protector of Black rights as citizens, virulent and violent racism and a denial of the truth of the reasons for the civil war that lasted until the 1960s. It is as if there were statues to Rommel as a "good " general forgetting who he fought for.
9
The intention of the statues erected to "commemorate" great Southern Civil War generals is clear. These symbols were a daily reminder to both whites and blacks of the expected social class structure in the South in which blacks were meant to be at the bottom. For as long as legally and humanly possible.
These statues have no place in American society today, except in a museum making that very point about American culture and how it evolved after the Civil War.
Taking them down now reminds us of who we are and who we aspire to be as a nation.
These statues have no place in American society today, except in a museum making that very point about American culture and how it evolved after the Civil War.
Taking them down now reminds us of who we are and who we aspire to be as a nation.
9
This is another of those pieces that, in the words of Philip Roth in his novel, The Human Stain "....indulge in the "ecstasy of sanctimony." George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were, as Robert E, Lee, slaveholders. All three ultimately became conflicted about this terrible institution to which they were themselves enslaved to. Washington and Jefferson both became President and General Lee was the military leader of the Confederacy. Neither of the two Presidents could not or would not even begin the long march toward abolishing slavery when they had the power, one would think, to do so, All three were men of their times and it is impossible to explain what that means in 1500 characters.
In the North there were the draft riots where potential draftees refused to fight to free the slaves after President Lincoln issued his Emancipation Proclamation. The President's reason for going to war was to preserve the Union and he himself was not necessarily opposed to slavery. In addition, there was a different form of slavery in the North, wage slavery in which men. women and children were mercilessly and routinely abused in industrial sweat shops;
Finally, there was the genocide of the Native Americans something rarely mentioned in this coming to terms with our past. There were no aides of the angels prior to the Civil War, during the Civil War and after the Civil War. Slavery was introduced not soon after the Pilgrims landed and even a few African Americans owned slaves.
In the North there were the draft riots where potential draftees refused to fight to free the slaves after President Lincoln issued his Emancipation Proclamation. The President's reason for going to war was to preserve the Union and he himself was not necessarily opposed to slavery. In addition, there was a different form of slavery in the North, wage slavery in which men. women and children were mercilessly and routinely abused in industrial sweat shops;
Finally, there was the genocide of the Native Americans something rarely mentioned in this coming to terms with our past. There were no aides of the angels prior to the Civil War, during the Civil War and after the Civil War. Slavery was introduced not soon after the Pilgrims landed and even a few African Americans owned slaves.
9
Unlike the people "honored" in the South, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson did not rebel against their country to preserve slavery.
3
Dear Jeff,
Unfortunately, Washington and Jefferson rebelled against their country (England) in order to have taxation with representation, but in the process, they preserved slavery.
Unfortunately, Washington and Jefferson rebelled against their country (England) in order to have taxation with representation, but in the process, they preserved slavery.
2
Lincoln was absolutely opposed to slavery and regularly said so. Further, although he didn't feel he had the power to interfere where slavery existed, he ran on the idea that he could keep it from expanding into the new states. He had long held the belief that such would set slavery on a course towards extinction.
Comparing chattel slavery in the to "wage slavery" is a factually and morally bankrupt position. Industrial workers couldn't be sold apart from their families, for example.
Comparing chattel slavery in the to "wage slavery" is a factually and morally bankrupt position. Industrial workers couldn't be sold apart from their families, for example.
History should be about truth telling. In ancient times it was mixed with mythology, and the glorification of a people, a tribe, a nation. Modern history is documented and harder to mythologize, no matter how hard some people, some tribes and some nations try. Stories of revolution, civil war, exploitation and genocide are sanitized or erased to preserve a myth. It is up to historians and museum curators to set the record straight and put statues of men erroneously revered in their proper place. And that place is not on top of a pedestal in the town square.
9
By all means move the statues to museums. And on the descriptive plaques in front of them include a reference to where they were originally erected, as a testament to Southern society's efforts to whitewash history.
10
No museum wants these statues, why would they, statues dedicated to the people who lost a tragic war?
When we write about the racial beliefs of people in the 19th century we need to be careful not to look at it through 21st century eyes. In the 19th century most believed both the Bible and Science taught that blacks were inferior, in fact scientists felt that blacks were the missing link. Although we can never fully understand the thoughts of feelings of people around the time of the civil war, we can learn much by studying the causes of the war--but we can never fully understand--they were products of another time and didn't see things the way we do.
When we write about the racial beliefs of people in the 19th century we need to be careful not to look at it through 21st century eyes. In the 19th century most believed both the Bible and Science taught that blacks were inferior, in fact scientists felt that blacks were the missing link. Although we can never fully understand the thoughts of feelings of people around the time of the civil war, we can learn much by studying the causes of the war--but we can never fully understand--they were products of another time and didn't see things the way we do.
2
Some of the statues are works of art and even engineering marvels. They can be appreciated for that.
2
Which ones? none I have seen
"all the museums and memorials to the Holocaust, the great crime against European Jewry that did not happen here, of which the United States was neither perpetrator nor victim"
The United States WAS a perpetrator of a genocide, a far more complete genocide than Hitler's as a percentage of the whole killed. Where are the museums and memorials to that great killing? Where is even the mention of it here when discussing genocide?
Sure, we have museums and memorials to Indians, but they are like Cigar store Indians, not like the Holocaust memorials.
Slavery was not the worst crime of the US. The genocide was that.
The United States WAS a perpetrator of a genocide, a far more complete genocide than Hitler's as a percentage of the whole killed. Where are the museums and memorials to that great killing? Where is even the mention of it here when discussing genocide?
Sure, we have museums and memorials to Indians, but they are like Cigar store Indians, not like the Holocaust memorials.
Slavery was not the worst crime of the US. The genocide was that.
33
"How, after all, could those Confederate statues stand for so long and so prominently in so many American cities when they memorialized men who took up arms for slavery and in opposition to the Union?"
You have asked the right question, Roger. In fact, the statues have long outlived any usefulness. They do not need to be preserved forever. This is not erasing history; it's learning from it. Sure, Confederate soldiers (and often their generals, who were wounded and died along with them) fought with great courage and skill. Ask any Union soldier who faced them on the battlefield.
So did the ordinary German soldier in WW2. Ask any Allied soldier who faced them on the battlefield. But we do not see statues throughout Germany erected to the bravery of the common soldier, let alone any of their leaders. Why? We all know the answer- because their cause was not just. Bravery in the service of spreading and perpetuating genocide is not the same as the bravery in the service of ending it.
How many of these statues must we "preserve" in museums? It's the same question as: how many guillotines must the French preserve to "remember" The Terror?
You have asked the right question, Roger. In fact, the statues have long outlived any usefulness. They do not need to be preserved forever. This is not erasing history; it's learning from it. Sure, Confederate soldiers (and often their generals, who were wounded and died along with them) fought with great courage and skill. Ask any Union soldier who faced them on the battlefield.
So did the ordinary German soldier in WW2. Ask any Allied soldier who faced them on the battlefield. But we do not see statues throughout Germany erected to the bravery of the common soldier, let alone any of their leaders. Why? We all know the answer- because their cause was not just. Bravery in the service of spreading and perpetuating genocide is not the same as the bravery in the service of ending it.
How many of these statues must we "preserve" in museums? It's the same question as: how many guillotines must the French preserve to "remember" The Terror?
44
One can admire the skill, honor, bravery and dedication of Confederate generals and soldiers. Wrong as their cause may have been, there is room for understanding the circumstances of the day and the choices they made.
The statues, on the other hand, were constructed and installed at time we should, as a nation, never admire.
As students of history and proud Americans, we must face the times in which the lives of so many were negatively impacted by institutional racism. We grow as a nation when we learn from our past mistakes and move forward with a commitment to equality and fairness.
Let us begin...........
The statues, on the other hand, were constructed and installed at time we should, as a nation, never admire.
As students of history and proud Americans, we must face the times in which the lives of so many were negatively impacted by institutional racism. We grow as a nation when we learn from our past mistakes and move forward with a commitment to equality and fairness.
Let us begin...........
7
Mr. Cohen, thank you for another beautifully written, thoughtful column. To our "original sin" of slavery I would add the treatment of Native Americans, which also continues to this day.
21
As an African American and student of history, I am against the rapid and covert removal of these statues and monuments. I agree with Mr. Cohen that "memory is emotion." And in some ways so is history. Our understanding of the world we inhabit is colored by our perspective, which is largely influenced by personal and collective experiences.
My grandmother's upbringing in the Jim Crow south is a part of her history, with or without the Confederate memorabilia. Visiting relatives in NC as a teen, I recall being terrified by the sounds coming from the woods behind my cousin's home, only to find out it was a gathering of Ku Klux Klan members. That is a part of my history. One that I had not thought about for many years, until hearing David Duke, former KKK Grand Wizard, praising Trump in Charlottesville. The emotional memory his comments evoked in me cannot be erased by removing statues. Unless we learn and understand the real history behind these monuments, all of this is just revisionist redecorating.
My grandmother's upbringing in the Jim Crow south is a part of her history, with or without the Confederate memorabilia. Visiting relatives in NC as a teen, I recall being terrified by the sounds coming from the woods behind my cousin's home, only to find out it was a gathering of Ku Klux Klan members. That is a part of my history. One that I had not thought about for many years, until hearing David Duke, former KKK Grand Wizard, praising Trump in Charlottesville. The emotional memory his comments evoked in me cannot be erased by removing statues. Unless we learn and understand the real history behind these monuments, all of this is just revisionist redecorating.
55
Removing the statues in New Orleans was long contemplated and debate was contentious. In the end, a decision was made that offended many, but some decisions are that way.
The removal was performed in full view with plenty of media coverage, and the Mayor of New Orleans, Mitch Landrieu, made a beautiful speech about American values. That event was a turning point in our American history, a Southern white man, a product of generations of Louisianans, saying: Enough!
What has happened since is, perhaps, haphazard and sneaky, but it's a natural response to Mr. Landrieu's call to put the Civil War behind us. That history will never disappear. I see no point in leaving memorials to that conflict on sixty foot high pedestals. Glorifying that conflict has not helped us heal. Removing the monuments may finally help do that.
The removal was performed in full view with plenty of media coverage, and the Mayor of New Orleans, Mitch Landrieu, made a beautiful speech about American values. That event was a turning point in our American history, a Southern white man, a product of generations of Louisianans, saying: Enough!
What has happened since is, perhaps, haphazard and sneaky, but it's a natural response to Mr. Landrieu's call to put the Civil War behind us. That history will never disappear. I see no point in leaving memorials to that conflict on sixty foot high pedestals. Glorifying that conflict has not helped us heal. Removing the monuments may finally help do that.
5
As an African-American, even as a young child, it was always grotesquely odd that there were statues lifting up Robert E. Lee and his confederates. I was always offended that on Saturday mornings there were movies depicting and glorifying the Southern way of life with respect to the slave-owning plantation class. This always appeared wrong. It appeared wrong because it is obviously and blatantly wrong. However, these are one of the things a black American must just learn to live with in American life--lest you go crazy.
I am happy we are at a point where the country is contemplating whether these monuments should come down. But the obvious answer is that they should have never gone up, let alone stay up for so long. I suppose they should go into a museum where they are displayed at the hands of a careful and thoughtful curator, but that's it.
I am happy we are at a point where the country is contemplating whether these monuments should come down. But the obvious answer is that they should have never gone up, let alone stay up for so long. I suppose they should go into a museum where they are displayed at the hands of a careful and thoughtful curator, but that's it.
5
'Deocrations' - and words - matter. This idol worship is treason even if it were not vile from slavery.
I grew up near a statue of Philip Sheridan on horseback. A stately landmark in a small but highly visible park on Sheridan Road. A blank space would somehow be glaringly wrong. An equally classic bronze of a Native American on horseback would be better. A blank pedestal is just an eyesore representing a rupture in the fabric of time.
Revolutionary war heros might be one idea to replace the civil war generals.
Civil war participants from either side should be left off the public pedestal until that war is truly seen by all as a bad example of our countries values and its character.
Revolutionary war heros might be one idea to replace the civil war generals.
Civil war participants from either side should be left off the public pedestal until that war is truly seen by all as a bad example of our countries values and its character.
4
While I understand the sentiment, I must point out that many of our Revolutionary War heroes did not have clean hands - some owned slaves and, perhaps like Declaration of Independence writer Thomas Jefferson, fathered children from their captives. Speaking of mothers and women, how many of these folks favored the rights of women, let alone black women "owned" by others and considered only partially a person by the writers of the US Constitution? Do we need to get to discrimination or outright hatred of those of a different religion? No, I don't believe in honoring slave holders or a slave society, but I do believe folks need to put the past in perspective, understand its history, culture, ideas, and use all of that to improve the world in which we live in now. To remove these symbols could lead to forgetting what was and repeating history with all the horrors and sadness inflicted on far too many people.
3
Education and truth needs to be told. The history books have longed told the story of the civil war dishonestly. To say that the war was over states rights is a distortion of the truth. It is only true in the sense that it negated the right of the federal government to outlaw slavery.
We glorified the valor of confederates in movies an national battlefield parks, without also telling that these were traitors fighting the USA. The role of the Republican party in encouraging these cover ups of truth and suppression of black voters is enormous since the Reagan presidency until now.
We glorified the valor of confederates in movies an national battlefield parks, without also telling that these were traitors fighting the USA. The role of the Republican party in encouraging these cover ups of truth and suppression of black voters is enormous since the Reagan presidency until now.
33
It's wrong to tar all history books with the same brush. Pay attention to the credentials of the author and the reputation of the publisher. Don't assume that because Bill O'Reilly makes big bucks by writing "history," all books about America's past are suspect. Professional historians are, for the most part, rigorous and careful. (And when they mess up, they suffer the consequences. See the case of Michael Bellisiles.)
James McPherson, Eric Foner, Drew Gilpin Faust, Barbara Fields and many, many others write compellingly about the Civil War. Further, they rely on evidence, not myth, to support their conclusion that the Civil War was fought over slavery.
James McPherson, Eric Foner, Drew Gilpin Faust, Barbara Fields and many, many others write compellingly about the Civil War. Further, they rely on evidence, not myth, to support their conclusion that the Civil War was fought over slavery.
10
There is a growing library of books by black scholars that must be incorporated into the lexicon. For example, Carol Anderson, Chris Lebron, Ibram Kendi, Isabel Wilkerson, Elizabeth Hinton, Khalil Gibran Mohamed, Tommie Shelby, to name a few. Their research, analysis and writing provides the key to a more truthful rendering of history on which we all must reflect. And the Equal Justice Initiative beside its important work defending those wrongfully incarcerated is also building a museum and erecting monuments at sites of lynchings throughout the country. We need a process of truth and reconciliation and there are thoughtful and powerful voices to lead this country. Let us listen ...
Well, the current Republican Party is just the Ante Bellum Southern Democratic Party, with a few fellow travelers from other parts. No two ways about it.
We visited Momento Park outside Budaoest, an open air museum of communist era statues relocated from the city. It was excellent. Considering how Hungary suffered under Soviet domination, the communist statues could easily have been destroyed, but they were taken from places where people would have no choice but to see them every day. In the park, viewing these statues is voluntary, and the political content is drained, somewhat, and their artistry emphasized. Their stylistic similarity makes it into a sculpture park for an artistic genre.
When we were there, I think all the visitors were tourists. The Hungarians certainly promote it as a tourist attraction.
When we were there, I think all the visitors were tourists. The Hungarians certainly promote it as a tourist attraction.
12
That's because they no longer have Soviet domination; we still have the vestiges of our confederate past.
Ponder this unlikely historical comparison:
Grant, after Lee's surrender, allowed the defeated rebel army to retain their horses, knowing that the South was largely agricultural and that horses were the beasts of burden needed to till the fields. He did so in part to avoid an ongoing guerilla war, but also in part to remind the Southernors that they could no longer rely on slaves to do their labor.
Douglas McArthur, after accepting Japan's surrender in 1945, chose a path of reconciliation over harsh imposition, believing that the Japanese people, so relentless in battle, would obey the wishes of the suddenly humanized Emperor.
He could have exacted harsh reprisals and imposed strict martial law, but decided instead to set the rules for Japan's regeneration.
The difference in these two events is the assassination of Lincoln by a deranged Southernor. Lincoln would have eagerly tried to bound up the wounds of a disastrous civil war, believing union was paramount. His death, instead, let the wounds of war fester and grow over time into bitter resentment and the creation of myth to sustain the vanquished in their own minds.
McArthur and Grant both displayed exceptional wisdom from the ashes of war, but what Grant hoped for was sabotaged by hatred and revenge.
Lincoln's murder was without doubt a seminal -- perhaps THE seminal moment -- of American history, whose effects are still rippling through our society.
Grant, after Lee's surrender, allowed the defeated rebel army to retain their horses, knowing that the South was largely agricultural and that horses were the beasts of burden needed to till the fields. He did so in part to avoid an ongoing guerilla war, but also in part to remind the Southernors that they could no longer rely on slaves to do their labor.
Douglas McArthur, after accepting Japan's surrender in 1945, chose a path of reconciliation over harsh imposition, believing that the Japanese people, so relentless in battle, would obey the wishes of the suddenly humanized Emperor.
He could have exacted harsh reprisals and imposed strict martial law, but decided instead to set the rules for Japan's regeneration.
The difference in these two events is the assassination of Lincoln by a deranged Southernor. Lincoln would have eagerly tried to bound up the wounds of a disastrous civil war, believing union was paramount. His death, instead, let the wounds of war fester and grow over time into bitter resentment and the creation of myth to sustain the vanquished in their own minds.
McArthur and Grant both displayed exceptional wisdom from the ashes of war, but what Grant hoped for was sabotaged by hatred and revenge.
Lincoln's murder was without doubt a seminal -- perhaps THE seminal moment -- of American history, whose effects are still rippling through our society.
97
However Andrew Johnson tried to fulfill Lincoln's wish to keep the union intact, originally he wanted to execute the rebels but when he saw the monumental task ahead of reconstruction he decided to pardon the rebels, Lincoln may have done the same we will never know. Johnson's veto of the republican reconstruction act was overridden so Johnson was required to pursue a more liberal path to reconstruction. It may not have been possible for anything better than we got. We will never know.
1
Add to Lincoln's assassination the Compromise of 1877 which provided for Rutherford B. Hayes to be president in exchange for Union soldiers being withdrawn from the south. The occupation should have continued until every Confederate soldier had gone to his grave. In my family that was 1925.
Back when Reconstruction was viewed as a fool’s errand imposing “Negro rule” on a prostrate South, critics often quoted Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address, calling for "malice toward none; with charity for all." The preceding paragraph goes largely ignored: “It may seem strange that any men should dare to ask a just God's assistance in wringing their bread from the sweat of other men's faces, but let us judge not, that we be not judged. . . . Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, . . . still it must be said ‘the judgements of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.’"
Still, I agree that if anyone could have reconstruted the nation without sacrificing black rights, it was Lincoln with his combination of statesmanship and political savvy.
Still, I agree that if anyone could have reconstruted the nation without sacrificing black rights, it was Lincoln with his combination of statesmanship and political savvy.
1
Removing these monuments is removing the great scars left from social and economic upheavals that pitted brother against brother. They tell a story and should be left in place so future generation are aware of what happened then and afterward. Slavery was a dying institution but the economic implications of freeing slaves to the south was enormous. Lincoln recognized that slave holders lacked the resources to make the transition as did the slaves, hence resettlement propositions and his efforts to compensate slave owners as was the models in other countries where slavery was abolished. These efforts were too late, legislators rebuffed his efforts, and events moved too quickly and war was the result. Southerners with inherited slaves knew economic ruin and resentment would result if slaves were freed without compensation enabling them to switch to a non slave model, so did Lincoln. He was right and the legacy of those perhaps unavoidable choices are still with us.
5
Lem
The problem is, and the missing history is, that whatever the theme of many of these statues - Lee on noble horseback, Forrest keeping black men in their place (dead, that is) - it was secondary their real function.
Created and installed many decades after the Civil War ended, and placed in strategically important locations, these statues were totems, bleak reminders to anyone who wondered where black people belonged, who was in charge, where the power of government and private money was focused.
Whatever their relationship to history, the purpose of these works was always to intimate, to mock, to instill uncertainty and fear.
Just as you could say my tripping on a curb is history, so is everything anybody ever did during the Civil War history, and liable to be a source of education and edification.
So, too, is the history of undying enmity, eternal prejudice and, finally, the trembling and fearful realization that they were wrong, that they were sinners, and they were losers which prompted so many in the South to subsidize the appearance of so many of these war-related statues.
Save them, if you must. Go, visit, mourn the life they ostensibly memorialize, if you can.
But don't dare ever forget that, above all, many were tools of oppression, symbols of an undying commitment to making life a living hell for citizens never accepted or regarded as fellow Americans.
They may be allowed to survive but they can no longer be permitted to serve their intended purpose.
The problem is, and the missing history is, that whatever the theme of many of these statues - Lee on noble horseback, Forrest keeping black men in their place (dead, that is) - it was secondary their real function.
Created and installed many decades after the Civil War ended, and placed in strategically important locations, these statues were totems, bleak reminders to anyone who wondered where black people belonged, who was in charge, where the power of government and private money was focused.
Whatever their relationship to history, the purpose of these works was always to intimate, to mock, to instill uncertainty and fear.
Just as you could say my tripping on a curb is history, so is everything anybody ever did during the Civil War history, and liable to be a source of education and edification.
So, too, is the history of undying enmity, eternal prejudice and, finally, the trembling and fearful realization that they were wrong, that they were sinners, and they were losers which prompted so many in the South to subsidize the appearance of so many of these war-related statues.
Save them, if you must. Go, visit, mourn the life they ostensibly memorialize, if you can.
But don't dare ever forget that, above all, many were tools of oppression, symbols of an undying commitment to making life a living hell for citizens never accepted or regarded as fellow Americans.
They may be allowed to survive but they can no longer be permitted to serve their intended purpose.
1
I would shed no tears for the "economic implications" to the 1%ers of the day. No one took away their land and many of those families are still wealthy.
1
It should also be noted that the Southern states legislators intransigently fought to ensure that slavery would be extended to western territories where it had not been established, not just to preserve it in the existing states. That was another key point of irreconcilable difference that resulted in the war.
Mr. Cohen, it's not the statues that hearken back to America's dark days of slavery and Jim Crow, it's the attitude and mindset that has permeated American thought for hundreds of years. The "three-fifths" mentality assigned to black people is buried in the subconsciousness of many white Americans today. Black folks are still "them", "they", "their", "those people" or "you people". The separate-but-equal attitude towards black people is institutional and has been ingrained in the American psyche for generations.
Statues of Confederate heroes and the rebel flag don't have to be on public display or flown at white nationalist parades to have their message delivered with unmistakable volume and meaning. Their divisive symbols are a daily reminder of the war and bloodshed that the South was willing to wage for the ideals it fought and died for.
Statues of Confederate heroes and the rebel flag don't have to be on public display or flown at white nationalist parades to have their message delivered with unmistakable volume and meaning. Their divisive symbols are a daily reminder of the war and bloodshed that the South was willing to wage for the ideals it fought and died for.
9
Republicans have been guilty of dog-whistle politics, calling to the white southern base (at least since Nixon) in coded messages. These transmissions were meant to build on a durable American cultural tradition of white solidarity. Lest we forget, that solidarity has survived war and political change for generations.
Trump does not know how, or care to, dog-whistle. He’s calling his dogs in the open. But his other innovation is that he’s also calling the non-southern whites as well. Those who feel a misplaced resentment for the arc of their lives, and once again are willing to blame the other for their misfortunes. Obama’s cool success only served to irritate and sometimes enrage them. Trump, always the diviner of baser feelings, has given them voice. His repudiation of all things Obama offers his followers the meat they crave.
The statues are the objects of our continuing struggle over white solidarity. The arguments over their removal, however appropriate in retelling our history, are evidence that we have not yet come even close to resolving the issues of race that began in our history with the first shipment of African slaves to Virginia in 1619. The removal of Confederate “heroes” is only a gesture. It may help, but we have much more talking to do to understand and resolve 400 years of racism.
Trump does not know how, or care to, dog-whistle. He’s calling his dogs in the open. But his other innovation is that he’s also calling the non-southern whites as well. Those who feel a misplaced resentment for the arc of their lives, and once again are willing to blame the other for their misfortunes. Obama’s cool success only served to irritate and sometimes enrage them. Trump, always the diviner of baser feelings, has given them voice. His repudiation of all things Obama offers his followers the meat they crave.
The statues are the objects of our continuing struggle over white solidarity. The arguments over their removal, however appropriate in retelling our history, are evidence that we have not yet come even close to resolving the issues of race that began in our history with the first shipment of African slaves to Virginia in 1619. The removal of Confederate “heroes” is only a gesture. It may help, but we have much more talking to do to understand and resolve 400 years of racism.
20
The "Cause" for the South was economic, they fought for free labor, no matter the past and present mouthings about "States rights". The statues, erected well after the Civil War, are a tribute to people guilty of treason.
By all means, preserve them and put them in museums to remind us of the
644 thousand deaths caused by the war, and remind us of the racism that followed, the racism that still exists.
By all means, preserve them and put them in museums to remind us of the
644 thousand deaths caused by the war, and remind us of the racism that followed, the racism that still exists.
27
The war was real. It is history But statues for defectors is a distortion of history. One little blurb in a museum about how statues were used to further Jim Crow ought to do it.
7
Two points about the Confederate statues:
First, they are of people who, let's not mince words, were traitors. Yes, after the war some of them reconciled to their losses, but still they made war on the United States. There is no statue to Benedict Arnold (although you can find one to the boot of his wounded leg at the Saratoga battlefield).
Second, they were erected for the specific purpose of reminding the Black population of the South to keep their place and to recognize that Jim Crow had replaced formal slavery. To prove this, note that although there are statues of Generals Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and even Nathaniel Bedford Forrest (founder of the Klan), there are none to General Longstreet ... because he agreed with Black men having the vote and, in fact, led the suppression of White supremacists in New Orleans.
First, they are of people who, let's not mince words, were traitors. Yes, after the war some of them reconciled to their losses, but still they made war on the United States. There is no statue to Benedict Arnold (although you can find one to the boot of his wounded leg at the Saratoga battlefield).
Second, they were erected for the specific purpose of reminding the Black population of the South to keep their place and to recognize that Jim Crow had replaced formal slavery. To prove this, note that although there are statues of Generals Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and even Nathaniel Bedford Forrest (founder of the Klan), there are none to General Longstreet ... because he agreed with Black men having the vote and, in fact, led the suppression of White supremacists in New Orleans.
42
Yes, sometimes it's not what's there, but what isn't there, that informs us the most.
2
There are statues of Longstreet. Not as many as there are of Lee and Jackson, because, quite simply, Longstreet wasn't nearly as good a general as they were.
2
A major reason why most Americans know nothing about the Revolution has to do with slavery. Each colony was a mini-England, governed by the king (who appointed a royal governor), a parliament, and the Common Law -- which rested on strict and unchangeable precedent.
When the Court of King's Bench in London in 1772 found that a Massachusetts slave was not property under the Common Law, multiple suits to abolish slavery popped up immediately in Massachusetts. The Massachusetts General Court upheld them. Southern colonies panicked. Massachusetts' royal governor illegally vetoed the decisions.
The British Parliament refused to correct this constitutional breakdown.The king, who should have been defending the common law, chose to back Parliament, principally because he himself was attempting to build a power base in Parliament, against which kings had only recently lost their power. The status of each of the 13 American governments was in a state of constitutional crisis.
Britain's sabotage of America's common law -- while keeping it intact for itself -- was one of the grievances given in the Declaration of Independence. The delusion that people could be property in one state, and citizens in another, was by no means an inadvertency. It was central to the founding of our republic. It remains a foundational myth that is still being defended in blood.
When the Court of King's Bench in London in 1772 found that a Massachusetts slave was not property under the Common Law, multiple suits to abolish slavery popped up immediately in Massachusetts. The Massachusetts General Court upheld them. Southern colonies panicked. Massachusetts' royal governor illegally vetoed the decisions.
The British Parliament refused to correct this constitutional breakdown.The king, who should have been defending the common law, chose to back Parliament, principally because he himself was attempting to build a power base in Parliament, against which kings had only recently lost their power. The status of each of the 13 American governments was in a state of constitutional crisis.
Britain's sabotage of America's common law -- while keeping it intact for itself -- was one of the grievances given in the Declaration of Independence. The delusion that people could be property in one state, and citizens in another, was by no means an inadvertency. It was central to the founding of our republic. It remains a foundational myth that is still being defended in blood.
3
Ergo....the ultimate goal of lefty libs is not just destroying the art and history of the Civil War, but ALSO destroying all the art and history of the Revolutionary War -- including anything commemorating those heinous slave owners Washington and Jefferson.
To be consistent, you would HAVE to do so.
To be consistent, you would HAVE to do so.
Public schools in this country are controlled locally. Children in the red states are taught a different history of the Civil War than those in other states. Southern children are taught that history as a battle over states rights and tariffs and that slavery was simply a part of the history of the entire U.S. When the northern states no longer needed slaves they tried to force the south to their own system.
This is not entirely mistaken- the more industrial north was fine with slavery until industrialization rendered it economically obsolete. The British ended slavery in England decades before the Civil War but permitted it in their agricultural colonies until well after the Proclamation of Emancipation.
Perhaps if we collectively admit our historic membership to this terrible institution- that even during our nation's birth there was understanding of its evil but the entire nation permitted its continuation, we can coax southern culture to finally evolve to the ability to fully admit the guilt of its ancestors.
The innate decency of human beings is a myth. We will always have the capacity for unspeakable savagery and violence - only culture and civilization evolves and it can devolve at any moment. The truth can help save us from ourselves and steer us towards our better angels.
This is not entirely mistaken- the more industrial north was fine with slavery until industrialization rendered it economically obsolete. The British ended slavery in England decades before the Civil War but permitted it in their agricultural colonies until well after the Proclamation of Emancipation.
Perhaps if we collectively admit our historic membership to this terrible institution- that even during our nation's birth there was understanding of its evil but the entire nation permitted its continuation, we can coax southern culture to finally evolve to the ability to fully admit the guilt of its ancestors.
The innate decency of human beings is a myth. We will always have the capacity for unspeakable savagery and violence - only culture and civilization evolves and it can devolve at any moment. The truth can help save us from ourselves and steer us towards our better angels.
3
Forcing people to admit guilt and confess "sins" against the current political correctness is precisely the behavior of communist dictatorships and totalitarian governments.
The Civil War ended 150 years ago. At the time, the population of the whole USA was about 31 million. Today it is 10 times that many.
We've had massive immigration and on top of that, a huge movement of population from the North to the South. So what a "Southerner" is today in 2017 is not a Southerner from 1865!!!! And only 4% of Southerners back then were rich enough to own ANY slaves.
Southerners today are blend of immigrants, and the descendants of sharecroppers and tenant farmers and black slaves and yes, a FEW white plantation owners. Nikki Haley and Bobby Jindal are Southerners -- of Indian heritage. Are they to blame for a Civil War that happened 100 years before they were born? and 10,000 miles away from the land of their birth? Are you going to force them to "confess their wrongdoing"?
The Civil War ended 150 years ago. At the time, the population of the whole USA was about 31 million. Today it is 10 times that many.
We've had massive immigration and on top of that, a huge movement of population from the North to the South. So what a "Southerner" is today in 2017 is not a Southerner from 1865!!!! And only 4% of Southerners back then were rich enough to own ANY slaves.
Southerners today are blend of immigrants, and the descendants of sharecroppers and tenant farmers and black slaves and yes, a FEW white plantation owners. Nikki Haley and Bobby Jindal are Southerners -- of Indian heritage. Are they to blame for a Civil War that happened 100 years before they were born? and 10,000 miles away from the land of their birth? Are you going to force them to "confess their wrongdoing"?
How is asserting with statues that the antebellum South was wonderful different from other forms of speech, most importantly, of advocacy? The statues are bad speech, but that is what the constitutional guarantee of free speech is meant to protect. Popular speech needs no protection. To paraphrase Justice Brandeis of 90 years ago, the answer to bad speech is not suppression, less speech, but more speech, good speech.
The Constitution provides for racists to express their views on street corners. It doesn't send bigots off to speak in museums. Why does another form of racist speech, statues, demand incarceration in museums?
Forget about suppressing the rotten opinions of the post-Reconstruction South. Broadcast the victory of the true Noble Cause, the Cause of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, the greatest Americans of our time. That is, more statues, not fewer. Good statues alongside the bad. Many more of them. More African-American museums throughout the country.
Movements oriented toward the real world focus on changing that real world. Movements without a clue aim at symbols. At names, e.g. Kolkata for Calcutta, Mumbai for Bombay, Chennai for Madras, in an India of grinding poverty and impending ecological disaster. Or, like us, attacking symbols that focus on the first cousin of names, statues.
Forget the two bit stuff. This country is in trouble. I don't know the answer. I do know that the answer isn't guilt-ridden Anglos.
The Constitution provides for racists to express their views on street corners. It doesn't send bigots off to speak in museums. Why does another form of racist speech, statues, demand incarceration in museums?
Forget about suppressing the rotten opinions of the post-Reconstruction South. Broadcast the victory of the true Noble Cause, the Cause of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, the greatest Americans of our time. That is, more statues, not fewer. Good statues alongside the bad. Many more of them. More African-American museums throughout the country.
Movements oriented toward the real world focus on changing that real world. Movements without a clue aim at symbols. At names, e.g. Kolkata for Calcutta, Mumbai for Bombay, Chennai for Madras, in an India of grinding poverty and impending ecological disaster. Or, like us, attacking symbols that focus on the first cousin of names, statues.
Forget the two bit stuff. This country is in trouble. I don't know the answer. I do know that the answer isn't guilt-ridden Anglos.
4
Growing up in the 50's and 60's.......,the narrative taught in our schools regarding the civil war was clear.
We were taught:
Government is benevolent and protective.
The Civil War was necessary to free the slaves of the southern states
During reconstruction former slaves had great opportunities and became leaders in their communities
Jim Crow was an isolated degrdation and southerners embraced reunification and their black brothers and sisters.
Lincoln , Grant , Lee, ..... Union and Confederate leaders were studied as we were taught that on both sides there were great men and women;although some were misguided.
In college ..... my American History professor was a southern lady.
It was the first time that i heard the term " War of Agression"
And she told us ..... New Englander children of immigrants in a state college, that everything we learned about the civil war as northeners was a constructed narrative and incorrect.
Before that class i thought the civil war was over and that our former " slave class" was given every benefit to advance in American Society.
The professor said it wasnt a war to free slaves but a war of economics at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution in America.
The only way this economic power struggle could be sold to the populace was to tack on the emanicipation of slaves.
Reality check......Trumpism and Racism have revealed the ugly underbelly of a civil war still being fought. Trump has allowed nasty Racists to set the dialog and policies
We were taught:
Government is benevolent and protective.
The Civil War was necessary to free the slaves of the southern states
During reconstruction former slaves had great opportunities and became leaders in their communities
Jim Crow was an isolated degrdation and southerners embraced reunification and their black brothers and sisters.
Lincoln , Grant , Lee, ..... Union and Confederate leaders were studied as we were taught that on both sides there were great men and women;although some were misguided.
In college ..... my American History professor was a southern lady.
It was the first time that i heard the term " War of Agression"
And she told us ..... New Englander children of immigrants in a state college, that everything we learned about the civil war as northeners was a constructed narrative and incorrect.
Before that class i thought the civil war was over and that our former " slave class" was given every benefit to advance in American Society.
The professor said it wasnt a war to free slaves but a war of economics at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution in America.
The only way this economic power struggle could be sold to the populace was to tack on the emanicipation of slaves.
Reality check......Trumpism and Racism have revealed the ugly underbelly of a civil war still being fought. Trump has allowed nasty Racists to set the dialog and policies
9
Because Lee defended a nation of slavery, his statues are viewed as improper. Today's generals defend a nation whose carbon emissions threaten to kill millions upon millions. Is it improper to honor them?
2
Washington and Jefferson also fought for and defended a nation of slavery.
Ergo, we must eradicate any memory of them, destroy their statues and their homes, and rename the US Capitol.
Ergo, we must eradicate any memory of them, destroy their statues and their homes, and rename the US Capitol.
For a century and a half, the white majority of Americans in the North allowed the white majority in the South to perpetuate a lie.
The lie, of course, was the myth that the bloody Civil War was fought for some vague disagreement about permitting individual states to determine their economic future, instead of being subject to the central government in Washington.
The white majority of Americans in the North then compounded its complicity in the cover-up of the fact that the casus belli for the Civil War was the enslavement of black people brought to our shores against their will.
The white Northerners averted their eyes while the white Southerners engaged in the Jim Crow torture and exploitation of black Americans, condemning generations to a fate only marginally better than the slavery the War had ended.
Through all of this, the statues of Robert E. Lee and other heroes of an enemy army were given places of honor. As black Americans were lynched and castrated in the South, the memories of Lee and the other enemy generals were being venerated and cleansed.
We, the white Northerners, must tell – not ask – the white Southerners to stop. Now.
The lie, of course, was the myth that the bloody Civil War was fought for some vague disagreement about permitting individual states to determine their economic future, instead of being subject to the central government in Washington.
The white majority of Americans in the North then compounded its complicity in the cover-up of the fact that the casus belli for the Civil War was the enslavement of black people brought to our shores against their will.
The white Northerners averted their eyes while the white Southerners engaged in the Jim Crow torture and exploitation of black Americans, condemning generations to a fate only marginally better than the slavery the War had ended.
Through all of this, the statues of Robert E. Lee and other heroes of an enemy army were given places of honor. As black Americans were lynched and castrated in the South, the memories of Lee and the other enemy generals were being venerated and cleansed.
We, the white Northerners, must tell – not ask – the white Southerners to stop. Now.
3
Museums are the most appropriate place to exhibit monuments dedicated to traitors who took up arms against the Stars and Stripes.
8
In a more civil society, a commission might be formed to study ways to tell the full story in public spaces, ways that might include the disgraced statues. But what might a statue that honors the slaves and commemorates their bondage and expresses regret and guilt for the sinful subjugation of a race look like?
5
To begin with, racism is so deeply ingrained in this nation's history, that any statues dedicated to preserving the memory of the Confederacy are not really necessary.
For many, the Civil War, just like the Korean War never ended.
But no matter how many arguments are used to praise its Generals or their military strategies, it doesn't disguise the fact that it all comes down to the same thing; preserving the inhuman institution of Slavery.
And there's no way of getting around this.
America has a deep sense of denial when it comes to recognizing its own brutal and tortuous past in its treatment of African-Americans; something that still exists to this day.
It's therefore no small wonder that they regard these statues as a grim reminder of generations of abuse and subjugation. And when the support of keeping them in public spaces is combined with marching Klansmen and neo-Nazis carrying Swastikas, the message is unavoidably clear.
There is no way to compare the horrors of the extermination of Jews to the despicable lynchings and murders of Black people; whose crime was the color of their skin, but what makes that so much more heinous is the fact that it happened here on American soil.
And now we have a president who doesn't rightly call out bigoty and anti-Semitism for the despicable acts that they are.
No doubt these statues have a place in history, but all too often the entire story isn't told; which is why they should be put in a museum.
That's where they belong.
For many, the Civil War, just like the Korean War never ended.
But no matter how many arguments are used to praise its Generals or their military strategies, it doesn't disguise the fact that it all comes down to the same thing; preserving the inhuman institution of Slavery.
And there's no way of getting around this.
America has a deep sense of denial when it comes to recognizing its own brutal and tortuous past in its treatment of African-Americans; something that still exists to this day.
It's therefore no small wonder that they regard these statues as a grim reminder of generations of abuse and subjugation. And when the support of keeping them in public spaces is combined with marching Klansmen and neo-Nazis carrying Swastikas, the message is unavoidably clear.
There is no way to compare the horrors of the extermination of Jews to the despicable lynchings and murders of Black people; whose crime was the color of their skin, but what makes that so much more heinous is the fact that it happened here on American soil.
And now we have a president who doesn't rightly call out bigoty and anti-Semitism for the despicable acts that they are.
No doubt these statues have a place in history, but all too often the entire story isn't told; which is why they should be put in a museum.
That's where they belong.
11
"...the 21st century is seeing...a relentless challenge in Western societies to the white mind-set, white assumptions, white amnesia."
The above, Mr. Cohen, is the kernel of the entire American experience since its founding. The colonists who arrived on their own or by royal proxy to appropriate native lands and obliterate native customs and belief systems were all from European countries. What difference was there from how the Dutch treated those in what is now Indonesia from how "Great" Britain massacred an entire native culture in what is now America and then buttressed its conquest upon the backs of African slave labor?
The answer is that race has always been like the two ravens in Wagner's last Ring opera, Götterdämmerung, Thought and Memory, who hover around the national consciousness, to distract us just enough so that we aren't aware, as Siegfried is, that he's about to die.
In America, countless whites refuse to acknowledge the evil of slavery and its grotesque train: Reconstruction, Jim Crow, the lawful segregation of black people and the concurrent deification of white supremacy that was blessed and sanctified in nearly every law in the land.
The modest gains of the Civil Rights movement of the past half-century are still being challenged; how different is the Roberts Court from the Taney Court?
The statues mean less to me, as a black man, than the mind-set of those whose reverence for white supremacy trump rational thought. I guess the pun was inevitable.
The above, Mr. Cohen, is the kernel of the entire American experience since its founding. The colonists who arrived on their own or by royal proxy to appropriate native lands and obliterate native customs and belief systems were all from European countries. What difference was there from how the Dutch treated those in what is now Indonesia from how "Great" Britain massacred an entire native culture in what is now America and then buttressed its conquest upon the backs of African slave labor?
The answer is that race has always been like the two ravens in Wagner's last Ring opera, Götterdämmerung, Thought and Memory, who hover around the national consciousness, to distract us just enough so that we aren't aware, as Siegfried is, that he's about to die.
In America, countless whites refuse to acknowledge the evil of slavery and its grotesque train: Reconstruction, Jim Crow, the lawful segregation of black people and the concurrent deification of white supremacy that was blessed and sanctified in nearly every law in the land.
The modest gains of the Civil Rights movement of the past half-century are still being challenged; how different is the Roberts Court from the Taney Court?
The statues mean less to me, as a black man, than the mind-set of those whose reverence for white supremacy trump rational thought. I guess the pun was inevitable.
10
Best thing yet on this memory and these bodies.
1
Surely you know better than to refer to the “three-fifths law” as a slur on the full humanity of the slaves. It was the owners of slaves who wanted their human property fully counted like everyone else. The counting was for determining how many representatives each state would be entitled to send to the House of Representatives. The “three-fifths” was a compromise with the anti-slavery party, who didn’t want slaves counted at all.
3
With all due respect, Mr. Cohen, this country's" original sin" is the murder and forced relocation of the Native Americans whose land we stole to build our freedom on. I'm fully aware of the unspeakable horror that continues to rage in parts of this country against black people and other minorities and fully support the removal of Confederate Statues.
8
The conquest of the Americas was a far greater crime than just the sin of the US, it encompassed many nations and the whole Americas as I am sure you know. The continuation of slavery into the second part of the 19th century was largely a US sin as most countries had abolished slavery or had modest slave holdings.
2
Agree wholeheartedly.
I do not think that America sees these statues as any sort of symbol of 'victory' of the Confederacy or its odious ideology. Regardless of whatever the intent of the erectors of these sad memorials was, today these statues stand as a reminder of the shame of the CSA, of the corruption of thought that was its guiding principle and its total destruction and expiration of its rationale for existence.
I believe that we have much to gain from considering the odious and its costs, to making that which is terrible in our past unavoidable. To hide it away, to refuse to allow people to consider pain and hurt and reality is dangerous. We are after all not in any way trying to change the abhorrent into the laudable - we are simply allowing people, forcing people, to remember the abhorrent and come to terms with it.
I believe that we have much to gain from considering the odious and its costs, to making that which is terrible in our past unavoidable. To hide it away, to refuse to allow people to consider pain and hurt and reality is dangerous. We are after all not in any way trying to change the abhorrent into the laudable - we are simply allowing people, forcing people, to remember the abhorrent and come to terms with it.
2
A reminder: this nation was only 70 years old, +/-, when the Civil War broke out. The theory of "nullification" was still being pushed, both in North and South. The role of the federal government vis-a-vis the states was evolving and still undetermined (not being fully decided until the New Deal cast the states as mere areas of geographic convenience for the federal government). Slavery was evil and was the primary cause of the Civil War, but it was only one cause. Cohen could find hundreds of quotes...including from A. Lincoln....ascribing a multitude of additional causes. The current furor is merely the fruit of extreme identity politics.
7
Let me repeat your excellent words:
EXTREME IDENTITY POLITICS
The left is also suffering from extreme "Trump derangement syndrome". They see destroying historical statues as a way of lashing out at Trump -- because it was NEVER an issue before, not ever.
They also wish to use this, as a way to "gin up rage" among black voters, who did not turn out to support Hillary -- in the hopes they WILL support the next Democratic POTUS candidate.
EXTREME IDENTITY POLITICS
The left is also suffering from extreme "Trump derangement syndrome". They see destroying historical statues as a way of lashing out at Trump -- because it was NEVER an issue before, not ever.
They also wish to use this, as a way to "gin up rage" among black voters, who did not turn out to support Hillary -- in the hopes they WILL support the next Democratic POTUS candidate.
Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made. -- Kant.
The first statues were those of gods, then of deified human beings, such as the emperors of Rome. Worshiping and honoring are closely connected concepts. Public statues portraying people have nearly always been about putting those people on a pedestal to honor them for their accomplishments, to make them larger than life, better than the rest of us.
How perfect, how flawless, does a human being have to be for a graven image of him/her in to be acceptable in the public square? How many could survive if each generation tore down the monuments of previous generations, whenever the current generation found something distasteful in the character of the person portrayed?
The confederate monuments are works of art, some of them them pretty good works of art. Tearing them down feels to me to be a lot like other forms of censorship, like the early Christians smashing "heathen idols," like the burning of heretical books.
While no community should be compelled to preserve in perpetuity a monument that the majority of that community consider an eyesore (and some of these confederate monuments are eyesores to me), I would prefer we go slow on this iconoclasm. Let them come down when they can be replaced with something better. Let some, or even most, of them go into museums, or be sold to private collectors. Let some remain as reminders of a dark time, a cautionary tale.
The first statues were those of gods, then of deified human beings, such as the emperors of Rome. Worshiping and honoring are closely connected concepts. Public statues portraying people have nearly always been about putting those people on a pedestal to honor them for their accomplishments, to make them larger than life, better than the rest of us.
How perfect, how flawless, does a human being have to be for a graven image of him/her in to be acceptable in the public square? How many could survive if each generation tore down the monuments of previous generations, whenever the current generation found something distasteful in the character of the person portrayed?
The confederate monuments are works of art, some of them them pretty good works of art. Tearing them down feels to me to be a lot like other forms of censorship, like the early Christians smashing "heathen idols," like the burning of heretical books.
While no community should be compelled to preserve in perpetuity a monument that the majority of that community consider an eyesore (and some of these confederate monuments are eyesores to me), I would prefer we go slow on this iconoclasm. Let them come down when they can be replaced with something better. Let some, or even most, of them go into museums, or be sold to private collectors. Let some remain as reminders of a dark time, a cautionary tale.
6
The statues were removed sneakily, in the dark of night -- so that the PEOPLE could not have a say about it.
The intent of lefties here is clear -- to tear down and destroy and melt down all Confederate statues and then artwork, books, literature, songs, poetry, etc.
The intent of lefties here is clear -- to tear down and destroy and melt down all Confederate statues and then artwork, books, literature, songs, poetry, etc.
The statues are just the splinter in our Republic's paw.
We will somehow need to discuss the rotted sub frame in our dilapidated house.
Allowing mold to continue to fester doesn't stop it.
The termites are undermining all that we hold dear and have invested, blood, sweat and tears into, to create. If not tented soon, there may be nothing left to save except the foundation to rebuild upon again.
Twisted analogy for sure.
But it is better than all the previous comments I had typed up and erased because the tone and end result sounded harsh and un-wishable.
Sure, lets correct the statues.
But it doesn't solve the major underlying problem of a family member that doesn't' wish to be anymore. One that is purposely causing strife and physical harm to familiar and draining the pocket book of the rest.
In the family situ. usually an end and/or separation from the abuser is the remedy.
Again, I have know idea how to rectify a major part of our Republic that doesn't wish to be corrected.
But removing the statues will have to do for now.
I see an intervention happening soon, or another bullet in a dark theater, on a hotel balcony even another Dallas street much less an alley in Cville is to be expected.
We will somehow need to discuss the rotted sub frame in our dilapidated house.
Allowing mold to continue to fester doesn't stop it.
The termites are undermining all that we hold dear and have invested, blood, sweat and tears into, to create. If not tented soon, there may be nothing left to save except the foundation to rebuild upon again.
Twisted analogy for sure.
But it is better than all the previous comments I had typed up and erased because the tone and end result sounded harsh and un-wishable.
Sure, lets correct the statues.
But it doesn't solve the major underlying problem of a family member that doesn't' wish to be anymore. One that is purposely causing strife and physical harm to familiar and draining the pocket book of the rest.
In the family situ. usually an end and/or separation from the abuser is the remedy.
Again, I have know idea how to rectify a major part of our Republic that doesn't wish to be corrected.
But removing the statues will have to do for now.
I see an intervention happening soon, or another bullet in a dark theater, on a hotel balcony even another Dallas street much less an alley in Cville is to be expected.
1
Then as now, it was a wealthy minority that benefited. Then from slavery. Now from our Koch Brothers brand of Republicanism. In the early 19th century D' Tocqueville observed that the left bank of The Ohio River was undeveloped (slave state Kentucky) while the Ohio side was buzzing with family's establishing their pioneer homesteads. He inferred that slavery only worked on a large industrial scale as in cotton or rice plantations.
Honoring the memory of this monority class of wealthy landowners would make the Koch brothers proud.
It should make everyone else regretful of that period of our country's past.
Honoring the memory of this monority class of wealthy landowners would make the Koch brothers proud.
It should make everyone else regretful of that period of our country's past.
3
Just as the Founding Fathers did not deal with the "peculiar institution", we in the South have never really dealt with our coordinated effort to destroy the very country the Fathers risked their lives and sacred honor to establish. As a child in the '50s in North Carolina, we were taught to think of Washington and Lee in the same breath. It was a false equivalency long before I knew what that meant. And long before Trump did the very same thing when he ponders if Washington and Jefferson will be next. No, they won't be. Because they did not try to destroy the Republic. The overwhelming majority of these statues weren't erected immediately after the war to honor the service and integrity of these men (though that would at least have a tiny bit of validity), they were erected in response to the rise of Black awareness, to remind blacks of their place. And eventually, just as it should have been in 1783, or 1865, or 1964; we will put this behind us. But not without terrible consequences. Look at the faces from Charlottesville. They represent over 200 years of misplaced justification for the debasement and dehumanizing of black human beings. Those faces have now been told by our President that they are good people.
5
There was no Republic to destroy when Washington and Jefferson REBELLED against their sovereign nation of Great Britain and their KING George III who they were sworn to uphold.
They both committed treason and were traitors to the Crown. Had they lost, both would have been hung.
Oddly enough, the Brits got over this and became our staunchest ally.
It is only lefty libs who STILL WANT TO FIGHT THE CIVIL WAR.
They cannot forgive. They are deadset on revenge and provoking hatred.
It is not true that Confederate statues were erected "solely to put blacks in their place". That is pure lefty rewriting of history. There are Confederate memorials all over Gettysburg -- in the NORTH!!! -- and in a small town, where there never were any slaves. Who were the creators of those statues intending to intimidate?
Turn this into an issue, and you will rally conservatives, Southerners and those opposed to lefty liberalism as never before -- and over something that wasn't an issue, EVER, not even during the CIvil Rights era!!!
I wonder, sir, how you can stand to live in the South -- when you hate it so much.
They both committed treason and were traitors to the Crown. Had they lost, both would have been hung.
Oddly enough, the Brits got over this and became our staunchest ally.
It is only lefty libs who STILL WANT TO FIGHT THE CIVIL WAR.
They cannot forgive. They are deadset on revenge and provoking hatred.
It is not true that Confederate statues were erected "solely to put blacks in their place". That is pure lefty rewriting of history. There are Confederate memorials all over Gettysburg -- in the NORTH!!! -- and in a small town, where there never were any slaves. Who were the creators of those statues intending to intimidate?
Turn this into an issue, and you will rally conservatives, Southerners and those opposed to lefty liberalism as never before -- and over something that wasn't an issue, EVER, not even during the CIvil Rights era!!!
I wonder, sir, how you can stand to live in the South -- when you hate it so much.
Lincoln said that every drop of blood drawn by the lash would be repaid by blood drawn by the sword. With a half million lives sacrificed to the noble cause (extrapolated, this would be about five million lives today) of ridding this country of slavery a large debt was paid. Statues of Americans who have done truly noble and uplifting things should be considered. Outside of some remote locations where is the rare statue of Dr. Jonas Salk who helped erase polio? Where will be the statues of people who saved lives in recent hurricanes? Do we love false history more than the truer ideals in founding documents?
2
'' The statues are part of American history; consigning them to oblivion does not help. '' The question is ; '' What will then ? ''
Will it be reparations ? Will it be that we give the land and title back to Native Americans ? Will it be the simple notion that all people are born and created equal, with equal protections and equal rights that are unequivocal ?
I agree that history should be taught and remembered for what it was, but we have one side that wants to bring to the forefront certain aspects, while the other side wants to relegate certain aspects to the back.
I would say that maybe we could meet in the middle, but that would mean that some would have to give up their human rights while going back to a time that they were 2nd class citizens, or worse; chattel,
We don't need statues to remind us how that was.
Will it be reparations ? Will it be that we give the land and title back to Native Americans ? Will it be the simple notion that all people are born and created equal, with equal protections and equal rights that are unequivocal ?
I agree that history should be taught and remembered for what it was, but we have one side that wants to bring to the forefront certain aspects, while the other side wants to relegate certain aspects to the back.
I would say that maybe we could meet in the middle, but that would mean that some would have to give up their human rights while going back to a time that they were 2nd class citizens, or worse; chattel,
We don't need statues to remind us how that was.
7
Confederate statues are the perfect symbol of the white backlash that Cohen describes: they are frozen images of white supremacists in glorious postures of domination. Trump's fearful, hateful supporters want those images of glory frozen in time. They do not want to think, or reason, or reflect on the world as it unfolds around them. They just want a frozen image of the past. But Cohen is right. Ultimately, they will not have that past as their future.
2
The battle over the monuments represents, at its core, a struggle over the definition of the American community. Slavery created a racial definition of citizenship by converting four million black Americans into objects, but the authors of the 14th amendment sought to enshrine a more inclusive sense of community by extending citizenship to anyone born or naturalized in the US.
White southerners could not overturn this change in the legal status of their former slaves, but through the jim crow system they stripped the 14th amendment of its practical meaning. In this way, they expelled blacks from their political community, and they erected the Confederate statues to remind themselves and their victims of that reality.
Throughout our history, the struggle over the constitutional guarantee of equality before the law has involved a dispute over the boundaries of the American nation. The Holocaust museums symbolize a public identification with Jewish Americans, and a commitment that bigots would no longer deny them full equality, even in the marketplace.
In like manner, the hostility to the Confederate monuments represents an affirmation of the civil rights movement and its dismantling of the jim crow system. The rampant abuses of the criminal justice system remind us that full equality of citizenship remains a work in progress, but the Black Lives Matter movement and the attack on the statues demonstrate that champions of an inclusive sense of community will not rest.
White southerners could not overturn this change in the legal status of their former slaves, but through the jim crow system they stripped the 14th amendment of its practical meaning. In this way, they expelled blacks from their political community, and they erected the Confederate statues to remind themselves and their victims of that reality.
Throughout our history, the struggle over the constitutional guarantee of equality before the law has involved a dispute over the boundaries of the American nation. The Holocaust museums symbolize a public identification with Jewish Americans, and a commitment that bigots would no longer deny them full equality, even in the marketplace.
In like manner, the hostility to the Confederate monuments represents an affirmation of the civil rights movement and its dismantling of the jim crow system. The rampant abuses of the criminal justice system remind us that full equality of citizenship remains a work in progress, but the Black Lives Matter movement and the attack on the statues demonstrate that champions of an inclusive sense of community will not rest.
"America has been adept at evasion." Indeed. But I wonder if the hysteria to remove Confederate statues is yet a symptom of that ability and longing to evade. We desperately want to remove any evidence of the evil losers, so that we can once again be the pure, kind country we know we are.
But who are we kidding? Removing these statues (even if it should be done regardless) won't cleanse our past. The North shares the sins of the South. We are one country in this. Our founding fathers were racists, plain and simple. The country was founded with inequality, in gender, race, and class, at its core. Our country's prosperity is the result of stolen land and stolen labor, from "inferior" people. And that racism, inequality, and exploitation is with us still. Knocking down "evil" statues and then believing ourselves to be above it all seems a coward's way out. When will we actually look in the mirror, and not try to find the evil out there? It is right here, built deep into our DNA. Removing it and rectifying it will be far more painful than removing monuments to a lost war. It will require finding better heroes in our past and erecting monuments dedicated to radically different values. North and South seems unready for what that means. It will require a remaking of our national soul. We must cut deeper and closer to the bone than Confederate monuments. That will be painfully revealing, and not a feel-good exercise.
But who are we kidding? Removing these statues (even if it should be done regardless) won't cleanse our past. The North shares the sins of the South. We are one country in this. Our founding fathers were racists, plain and simple. The country was founded with inequality, in gender, race, and class, at its core. Our country's prosperity is the result of stolen land and stolen labor, from "inferior" people. And that racism, inequality, and exploitation is with us still. Knocking down "evil" statues and then believing ourselves to be above it all seems a coward's way out. When will we actually look in the mirror, and not try to find the evil out there? It is right here, built deep into our DNA. Removing it and rectifying it will be far more painful than removing monuments to a lost war. It will require finding better heroes in our past and erecting monuments dedicated to radically different values. North and South seems unready for what that means. It will require a remaking of our national soul. We must cut deeper and closer to the bone than Confederate monuments. That will be painfully revealing, and not a feel-good exercise.
2
lainnj
"Removing these statues (even if it should be done regardless) won't cleanse our past."
No. But will help to keep it in the past.
As for the rest, I agree.
"Removing these statues (even if it should be done regardless) won't cleanse our past."
No. But will help to keep it in the past.
As for the rest, I agree.
Lonnie Bunch III is right that we should not attempt to erase history; in fact we need to learn our history. Our public schools only teach a sanitized version of our past, if they teach history at all. Americans may know that we fought a Civil War, South vs North, Confederate vs Union, gray vs blue, slavery vs free-person, but what do we know about the real human suffering of slaves, the moral degradation and hypocrisy of people who fought to save the peculiar institution?
We don't know the truth of our past. The statues to honor Confederates attempt to rewrite the Civil War as an honorable event and perpetuate the pain of black Americans. The truth of our past includes genocide of native peoples, statues of Columbus is a repugnant reminder of our sins if you know the truth.
A new museum is needed in the Capital, prominently located on the Mall. Move the Confederate statuary there along with statues of Columbus and any which honor soldiers and militias that fought so bravely to massacre native Americans, women, children and infants included, in a mission to eradicate them. We need a museum that speaks the truth of our past. We will never become Americans instead of white, black, brown and red Americans if we don't learn and acknowledge the truth of America's birth and our white propensity to demonize, dehumanize, subjugate and eliminate minorities; "others," now meaning Muslims, when we are not busy dehumanizing Mexican immigrants.
We don't know the truth of our past. The statues to honor Confederates attempt to rewrite the Civil War as an honorable event and perpetuate the pain of black Americans. The truth of our past includes genocide of native peoples, statues of Columbus is a repugnant reminder of our sins if you know the truth.
A new museum is needed in the Capital, prominently located on the Mall. Move the Confederate statuary there along with statues of Columbus and any which honor soldiers and militias that fought so bravely to massacre native Americans, women, children and infants included, in a mission to eradicate them. We need a museum that speaks the truth of our past. We will never become Americans instead of white, black, brown and red Americans if we don't learn and acknowledge the truth of America's birth and our white propensity to demonize, dehumanize, subjugate and eliminate minorities; "others," now meaning Muslims, when we are not busy dehumanizing Mexican immigrants.
4
Quote of Robert E Lee, "I am rejoiced that slavery is abolished. I believe it will be greatly for the interests of the South. So fully am I satisfied of this, as regards Virginia especially, that I would cheerfully have lost all I have lost by the war, and have suffered all I have suffered, to have this object attained." He was a real hero no matter what you do with his statues.
8
Yeah, well, that's a great sentiment after 600,000 lay dead. He was a real and perhaps very complicated man, but he had a choice and his choice at the time left blood on his hands.
3
If he really meant it, he would have retained his commission in the US Army, honored the oath he took when he was commissioned, and fought against slavery.
1
Wanda and Charles: I hope you also hate Washington and Jefferson with that fervor, as they also were slave owners.
What you wish to do is just people in the historical past by the standards of TODAY. And of course, in doing so you assume YOU would always be on the right side of history!
What you wish to do is just people in the historical past by the standards of TODAY. And of course, in doing so you assume YOU would always be on the right side of history!
African slavery pre- AND post-dated any European, let alone American, involvement whatsoever. To talk about slavery as an 'American' problem, or to take Ta-Nehisi Coates' view that slavery was fundamentally a white v black affair is utterly ahistorical. The Arab-African slave trade persisted after Europeans stopped purchasing West African slaves. The intra-African slave trade persists to this very day. Mauritania is probably the largest slave state on Earth, and recent reports have claimed that open slave markets are again operating in southern Libya. You cannot absolve Africans of their end-to-end complicity in slavery, nor can you pretend that Atlantic slavery was somehow uniquely worse than African or Middle Eastern slavery. At best, the distinctions are academic.
Now, for the statues. As we know many of them were erected in periods of especially bad African-American oppression for the express purpose of intimidating black folk. Statues built for this purpose should absolutely be taken down. However, there is a strong argument for certain veterans' statues to remain. What is memorialised is not the cause, but the service and sacrifice (and the monuments were often paid for by donations not long after the war). If veterans who fought for ignoble causes should never be memorialised then when are we tearing down the Vietnam War Memorial? How much worse is fighting for slavery than murdering innocent Vietnamese civilians? Is such a calculus even possible?
Now, for the statues. As we know many of them were erected in periods of especially bad African-American oppression for the express purpose of intimidating black folk. Statues built for this purpose should absolutely be taken down. However, there is a strong argument for certain veterans' statues to remain. What is memorialised is not the cause, but the service and sacrifice (and the monuments were often paid for by donations not long after the war). If veterans who fought for ignoble causes should never be memorialised then when are we tearing down the Vietnam War Memorial? How much worse is fighting for slavery than murdering innocent Vietnamese civilians? Is such a calculus even possible?
6
It's so easy:
Once you define yourself as the best and always being the moral high ground, there are no dark spaces in your existence.
And this is what the US has done a long time ago.
Unhindered by reality....
Once you define yourself as the best and always being the moral high ground, there are no dark spaces in your existence.
And this is what the US has done a long time ago.
Unhindered by reality....
6
Tearing down a statue is like destroying a religious icon. Why do we condemn the Taliban for defacing statues of the Buddha, and ISIS for its destruction of the monuments of Palmyra and not decry the pulling down of statues of Civil War Generals?
Robert E Lee fought with valor and it was he who accepted defeat at Appomattox.
He was a changed man. The country had been through the most devastating war in its history. Nobody knows the exact number of dead, but estimates start at 620,000. Many of these died not immediately in battle but after weeks pf suffering with infection. Many lost their limbs without anesthesia.
Most the battles were fought in the South and the South suffered the lion's share of casualties. The monuments to Robert E Lee honor the fallen, just as we now honor those who fought in Korea or Vietnam.
Why desecrate the memories of these fallen soldiers?
Yes, they fought on the wrong side? But didn't we all fight on the wrong side in Vietnam?
The war is 150 years behind us. And desecrating statues does NOTHING facing Black Americans and all Americans. The lack of decent jobs. The failure of Congress to even PROPOSE universal health care.
Let us focus on genuine issues, not vent to our hatreds of the dead.
Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. Must we therefore tear down our monuments to these founders of our country? Exactly where does it stop?
Robert E Lee fought with valor and it was he who accepted defeat at Appomattox.
He was a changed man. The country had been through the most devastating war in its history. Nobody knows the exact number of dead, but estimates start at 620,000. Many of these died not immediately in battle but after weeks pf suffering with infection. Many lost their limbs without anesthesia.
Most the battles were fought in the South and the South suffered the lion's share of casualties. The monuments to Robert E Lee honor the fallen, just as we now honor those who fought in Korea or Vietnam.
Why desecrate the memories of these fallen soldiers?
Yes, they fought on the wrong side? But didn't we all fight on the wrong side in Vietnam?
The war is 150 years behind us. And desecrating statues does NOTHING facing Black Americans and all Americans. The lack of decent jobs. The failure of Congress to even PROPOSE universal health care.
Let us focus on genuine issues, not vent to our hatreds of the dead.
Washington and Jefferson owned slaves. Must we therefore tear down our monuments to these founders of our country? Exactly where does it stop?
7
I'm black. Removing slavocrats' statues dies plenty for me
1
The US has a fair population today of Vietnamese immigrants.
What do they think or feel, seeing the Vietnam War Memorial -- and the sobbing millions who visit it, mourning their lost dead? The Memorial has a bigger than life size statue of US soldiers, too.
Do those Vietnamese-Americans feel offended? I'll bet they do! that ENTIRE Memorial exploits the deaths of millions of Vietnamese and the efforts to destroy their nation! and couches the whole thing as "mourning for our lost AMERICAN lives"!!!
TEAR DOWN THE VIETNAM WAR MEMORIAL!
What do they think or feel, seeing the Vietnam War Memorial -- and the sobbing millions who visit it, mourning their lost dead? The Memorial has a bigger than life size statue of US soldiers, too.
Do those Vietnamese-Americans feel offended? I'll bet they do! that ENTIRE Memorial exploits the deaths of millions of Vietnamese and the efforts to destroy their nation! and couches the whole thing as "mourning for our lost AMERICAN lives"!!!
TEAR DOWN THE VIETNAM WAR MEMORIAL!
Victors are supposed to write the history, yet the post war south shows otherwise. If it didn't take so much money, rather than total removal of these loathsome statues perhaps the addition of context in the form of plaques with appropriate explanations, plus statues of anti slavery heros and soldiers and statesmen would make sense. Sadly this won't happen, so relocation to some god forsaken corner of the county for losers is seemly.
2
When the statues come down will life change for those supposedly oppressed by them? Will you be a better man, woman, husband, father, son, daughter? Will you be a better member of society? Will you be a better employee, employer? Will you be a better student, teacher? We need to stop asking to take them down. We need to stop asking will life and our country be better when they do.
4
The statues remind us of a time when racist language and policy required no Press Secretary to smooth outrage.
Progress, not perfection: That motto should guide our efforts and inform our interpretation of the behavior of our ancestors. Denying the depth of American racism allows us to blithely speak of it in the past tense.
As we fixate on Robert E. Lee, who from accounts I've read was an honorable man put into an impossible position (his native state or his country), those far more virulent roam free, causing havoc.
In 2016, the Southern Poverty Law Center identified by name 917 active hate groups in the US. Clearly, whether our President is a mixed-race liberal or a white conservative who describes neo-Nazis toting weapons as "good people," these groups, which are a cancer on the American conscience, thrive; that such is the case tells us more about the current state of our country's racial decisions than, say, Arpaio's pardoning or the President's DACA serenade to his troops.
A German dictator-to-be in the 1920's admired the heck out of America's racial policies. Our forebears killed or jailed the aboriginal population and imported Africans to do the labor, leaving white people to fantasize that the power to coerce others to debase themselves somehow equated with moral goodness. We were good because we so easily foisted evil onto others.
Appalled at what we were, we should strive each day to cure one more instance of racial cruelty. Instead, our nation elected Trump.
Progress, not perfection: That motto should guide our efforts and inform our interpretation of the behavior of our ancestors. Denying the depth of American racism allows us to blithely speak of it in the past tense.
As we fixate on Robert E. Lee, who from accounts I've read was an honorable man put into an impossible position (his native state or his country), those far more virulent roam free, causing havoc.
In 2016, the Southern Poverty Law Center identified by name 917 active hate groups in the US. Clearly, whether our President is a mixed-race liberal or a white conservative who describes neo-Nazis toting weapons as "good people," these groups, which are a cancer on the American conscience, thrive; that such is the case tells us more about the current state of our country's racial decisions than, say, Arpaio's pardoning or the President's DACA serenade to his troops.
A German dictator-to-be in the 1920's admired the heck out of America's racial policies. Our forebears killed or jailed the aboriginal population and imported Africans to do the labor, leaving white people to fantasize that the power to coerce others to debase themselves somehow equated with moral goodness. We were good because we so easily foisted evil onto others.
Appalled at what we were, we should strive each day to cure one more instance of racial cruelty. Instead, our nation elected Trump.
4
Did the wholesale removal of Benedict Arnold statues eliminate him from history? Statues do not teach actual history.
1
What Benedict Arnold statues? Statues are built to honor a person. And in doing that they come to represent history. And in doing so they "teach actual history."
1
I am not aware of any Benedict Arnold statues, which were removed in the dead of night by fanatical extremists -- or toppled by those extremists -- or melted down as a protest against "that awful treasonous traitor!"
How about we leave the Confederate statues in place, but balance them out with some new monuments to create an appropriate counterpoint? So, a nice big statue of John Brown in Harper's Ferry noting his "mission to free the enslaved". Or a statue of Nat Turner prominently displayed in Courtland VA proclaiming his "leadership in a rebellion against the tyranny of the slaveholders". Or a monument in Richmond to Gabriel Prosser and the other slaves who the state of Virginia hanged in 1800 for planning a revolt against the oppressors who enslaved them. I'm sure the worshipers of Southern history would have no problem with such displays of Freedom Fighters who sought to rebel against an oppressive government....
2
There is a memorial to John Brown in Lake Placid, NY.
1
Well said. growing up a huge old movie fan, I often wondered why, in Westerns, the heroes were always ex-Confederate soldiers played by John Wayne or Clint Eastwood.
We have been told about the Noble South, and honor. Imagine if one tried to say the same thing about Nazi soldiers.
And this nonsense about rewriting history, or not accepting the time in which people lived. Jefferson owned slaves but agonized over it in much of his writing. The British, whom we celebrate liberating ourselves from, abolished slavery before the 18th century ended. By 1850 slavery had been virtually abolished throughout the West. Only in the American South was it still championed.
Tear down the public statues of secessionist slave owners.
We have been told about the Noble South, and honor. Imagine if one tried to say the same thing about Nazi soldiers.
And this nonsense about rewriting history, or not accepting the time in which people lived. Jefferson owned slaves but agonized over it in much of his writing. The British, whom we celebrate liberating ourselves from, abolished slavery before the 18th century ended. By 1850 slavery had been virtually abolished throughout the West. Only in the American South was it still championed.
Tear down the public statues of secessionist slave owners.
2
"How often I have wondered at all the museums and memorials to the Holocaust, the great crime against European Jewry that did not happen here, of which the United States was neither perpetrator nor victim."
While this is obviously not the thrust of the article, but 2 points here: 1. There is nary a Jewish family in the US that did not suffer loss of relatives in the Holocaust 2. The question as to why the US (and Allies) did not bomb death camps or at least railroad tracks is still out there.
"So let it be said, loud and clear; and let the statuary that appears to honor this enterprise be cleared from American public spaces; or, if any is to remain, ensure the context is clear enough to preclude veneration.
Nothing, when it comes to memory, is simple. Memory is emotion."
The Civil War was not unique. What happened afterwards was. The Confederate leaders and generals were not arrested, tried and punished. There was an illusion of reconciliation at the beginning and then when Jim Crow set in it was too late. The Confederacy was allowed to live on. If it had been obliterated as treason from the beginning, it would have died. But it was not and it flourished and then: surprise, surprise, people are upset with certain ideas that have lived on in this form or that.
The irony is that it was allowed to live on to avoid division. That apparently was a big mistake.
While this is obviously not the thrust of the article, but 2 points here: 1. There is nary a Jewish family in the US that did not suffer loss of relatives in the Holocaust 2. The question as to why the US (and Allies) did not bomb death camps or at least railroad tracks is still out there.
"So let it be said, loud and clear; and let the statuary that appears to honor this enterprise be cleared from American public spaces; or, if any is to remain, ensure the context is clear enough to preclude veneration.
Nothing, when it comes to memory, is simple. Memory is emotion."
The Civil War was not unique. What happened afterwards was. The Confederate leaders and generals were not arrested, tried and punished. There was an illusion of reconciliation at the beginning and then when Jim Crow set in it was too late. The Confederacy was allowed to live on. If it had been obliterated as treason from the beginning, it would have died. But it was not and it flourished and then: surprise, surprise, people are upset with certain ideas that have lived on in this form or that.
The irony is that it was allowed to live on to avoid division. That apparently was a big mistake.
4
How about in Israel where you have a fabricated history of how Israel was established in the first place. Of how the Palestinians lost their land and country because it was their fault for not handing over their land to Jews peacefully. Your country has a lot to answer for too. How about thinking about that instead of looking at the faults of others.
2
Let's stop the hypocrisy. This movement isn't about Confederate statutes anymore. They intend to much further. Their goal is to erase the names of historical figures...who they & they only deem racist by 2017 standards...from buildings, highways, & colleges. That is an absolute fact. This has been reported by the NYT & many mainstream media outlets. In recent months I have heard the demand that all statutes of Washington, Jefferson, and Jackson be removed because they owned slaves. It was only a few weeks ago on CNN Angela Rye said monuments of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson also need to be removed in addition to the Confederate monuments. ”I don’t care if it’s a George Washington statue or a Thomas Jefferson statue or a Robert E. Lee statue. They all need to come down,” she said. That's ridiculous. Sorry, Washington, and Jefferson maybe flawed figures but they don't deserve this fate. This is over the top political correctness. What the far left is demanding is more than mere historical revisionism, though. They demand that you see this country exactly as they do, reach the same moral judgments about it, & confess your sins. That's not happening, ever. The left has become self-righteous, denunciatory,& obsessed with trivial issues that have made them thankfully a national laughing stock. This is politically disastrous & just plays into the hands of Fox News. The people leading this movement are irrational fanatics. We can't allow them to destroy everything.
9
They WILL destroy everything.
They full intend to melt down all Confederate Statues, and rename cities, buildings, schools.
It is their "revenge on Trump".
They full intend to melt down all Confederate Statues, and rename cities, buildings, schools.
It is their "revenge on Trump".
Why has there been no leaders of this country stepping forward to offer a way forward? Why has there been no ideas suggested for what to do with these statues? Perhaps the thing to do is to develop, in a neutral location(s) (if some can be found) a Civil War Museum that will allow all people to learn about the two sides of this, the greatest American tragedy. And maybe then,walking through the museum, "little black boys and little black girls will hold hands with little white boys and little white girls". Because that is where we NEED to go to finally make this right. Nothing short of the unfulfilled dreams of Dr. King will suffice. The nation cries out for someone to lead us out of this quagmire. The swamp that needs to be drained is not in Washington. It is the swamp in the hearts and souls of many Americans that needs to be addressed. And her current "leaders" are simply not up to the task.
...and not to mention the decades long genocide against native Americans. A people with selective memory indeed. How convenient. As a German commentator on another thread about the Vietnam War wrote - and I paraphrase - how lucky you Americans are ! Lots of killing and slaying of innocents in you wars but no apologies to others - and the only memorials are to your own killers. This is true American Exceptionalism. And it's simply egocentric and hypocritical. Freedom from self-examination is the real meaning of freedom in the US.
7
We must learn to do shame, as hard as that is sometimes.
3
To the people from the South who give me this explanation of the reason for the Civil War, "It was about the right to secede, not about slavery." I respond with this, "So the South was going to go into the 20th century as a slave-owning agrarian society, how was that going to work out?" There is never a response.
3
Really, there is no way of knowing how it might have worked out. Most historians think slavery was going to die out anyways, in about 20 years, because of the sheer economics of it -- slaves are a very costly and inefficient way of raising cotton and tobacco, once you have cotton gins and tractors and farm machines.
But you can't know something that never happened.
But you can't know something that never happened.
I don't understand the point of this article at all. I don't think anyone is arguing that these statutes don't belong in museums - just get them removed from dominating our public spaces and remove the entitlement that these traitors deserve a place of honor on our streets and in our parks.
It must be disgusting for descendants of the enslaved to have to face these reminders on a regular basis if they merely wish to go out on a public street to live their lives. Why is it so difficult for these otherwise "Christian" (Do unto others...) Southern slavery apologists (sorry, your revered "heritage" is based on racial subjugation - grown up and down it already) to do the right sand decent thing.
Cohen's purpose here is to muddy those waters. Why?
It must be disgusting for descendants of the enslaved to have to face these reminders on a regular basis if they merely wish to go out on a public street to live their lives. Why is it so difficult for these otherwise "Christian" (Do unto others...) Southern slavery apologists (sorry, your revered "heritage" is based on racial subjugation - grown up and down it already) to do the right sand decent thing.
Cohen's purpose here is to muddy those waters. Why?
3
Andy, you live in a CITY -- the capitol of the USA -- which is named for a SLAVE OWNER.
If you want to be logical and consistent, that is a daily huge slap in the face to the majority of DC residents, who are BLACK.
How DARE you make them live in a city named for a racist slave owner? Oh and also a traitor to HIS nation of Great Britain and who committed treason against his KING, whom he was sworn to uphold.
Funny, the Brits got over that, and even have a statue of Washington in London.
But Americans must get REVENGE -- in 2017 -- for those awful racists of the 18th century.
Therefore, before you tear down one Civil War statue, you must start AT THE BEGINNING and destroy every vestige of Washington, and every monument, and rename DC....perhaps as "Obamaville".
If you want to be logical and consistent, that is a daily huge slap in the face to the majority of DC residents, who are BLACK.
How DARE you make them live in a city named for a racist slave owner? Oh and also a traitor to HIS nation of Great Britain and who committed treason against his KING, whom he was sworn to uphold.
Funny, the Brits got over that, and even have a statue of Washington in London.
But Americans must get REVENGE -- in 2017 -- for those awful racists of the 18th century.
Therefore, before you tear down one Civil War statue, you must start AT THE BEGINNING and destroy every vestige of Washington, and every monument, and rename DC....perhaps as "Obamaville".
Being part of our nation's history does not require a statue be raised to represent it. I don't see statues of notorious killers like Ted Bundy because they are part of our history.
4
Because Ted Bundy is not, as far as I know, a hero to anyone.
Though I'd find it kinda distasteful, if a city or state WANTED a statue of Ted Bundy...that would be THEIR business, not mine.
Though I'd find it kinda distasteful, if a city or state WANTED a statue of Ted Bundy...that would be THEIR business, not mine.
It would be right and fitting for Mr. Cohen to take the lead in demanding the desecration of the various memorials to Judah P. Benjamin, Confederate secretary of state, and Florida senator and secessionist David Levy Yulee. Until Mr. Cohen publicly admits his own people's surprisingly substantial role in the oppression of blacks in America, in Brazil, in Surinam, and in South Africa, it's hard to take seriously his demands to tear down the statues of other people's ancestors.
6
For me, all these statues should be placed in the Black museum. The descendants of those who built America - for no monetary reward - should be constantly reminded why there were no black players in baseball, why there were no black quarterback for decades, why trump is trying to reverse every act of a successful president. They would remind us that that is why marijuana laws were written yet a more dangerous drug - alcohol is legal. It would remind all those who would see, why so many blacks are locked away in American prisons.
This history should not be hidden, nor should it be hidden away in cemeteries or basements, because they are also our history.
I constantly teach my children our history, however I hasten to add that in the British parliament there was the William Wilberforces who saw the immorality of their fellow white men. I hasten to add, that Barack Obama had the support of millions of white voters. They teach in their bible studies, that god cursed the son of Noah who saw his nakedness, by sentencing him to be a slave to his brothers forever, they teach that the black man was that son, hence they saw no difficulty in enslaving us through force and by any means necessary.
Today, this hatred, and that's what it is,has been extended to Mexicans, even though more illegals enter the U.S. not by foot or car, but by plane, but white haters have managed to persuade fearful whites that they're the majority of illegals. As trump would say, sad.
This history should not be hidden, nor should it be hidden away in cemeteries or basements, because they are also our history.
I constantly teach my children our history, however I hasten to add that in the British parliament there was the William Wilberforces who saw the immorality of their fellow white men. I hasten to add, that Barack Obama had the support of millions of white voters. They teach in their bible studies, that god cursed the son of Noah who saw his nakedness, by sentencing him to be a slave to his brothers forever, they teach that the black man was that son, hence they saw no difficulty in enslaving us through force and by any means necessary.
Today, this hatred, and that's what it is,has been extended to Mexicans, even though more illegals enter the U.S. not by foot or car, but by plane, but white haters have managed to persuade fearful whites that they're the majority of illegals. As trump would say, sad.
2
The Civil War was fought over the issue of whether white human beings should be able to own and exploit black human beings. Period. Any attempt to couch the Civil War in any other context, but that of an attempt to the preserve a brutal economic, physical, and sexual reality, is a bold face historical lie. Ta-Nehisi Coates correctly characterized slavery as eternal damnation. The Confederate monuments represent historical figures whose veneration accurately represents the values and mores of the era in which they were constructed. However they have absolutely no place on public property, supported by the tax dollars of all citizens who reside in an increasingly pluralistic American society. Every Confederate statue is a potential teaching tool. History should be explained and understood not erased, but the museum, not the public commons, is the appropriate place for these indelibly stained relics of a sordid and immoral American past.
270
ISIS used almost identical arguments when destroying the ancient Bull of Nineveh and the Temple of Bell in Palmyra.
2
And the current culture is being fought of the issue of whether a mother can be able to kill an unborn child, for any reason or for no reason at all. Period.
The statues are more of an artifact of the JIm Crow era than of the Civil War. They should be in museums that explain the historical context in which they were erected rather the ostensible tribute to honor confederate civil war combatants. The statues were erected to let blacks know damned well that even after emancipation, they weren't equal in the eyes of the majority of white southerners. Great Granddaddy fought honorably to keep you all enslaved.
2
History as the storehouse of the real and imaginary grievances is difficult to come to terms with but reenactment of such history is really dangerous and risky. It is always preferable to learn lessons from the past history and move on to the future of unknown potential and opportunity. It is relevant here to strike a parallel between the two important democracies of the world, that is, the US and India that share in common their inability to come to terms with their past. For, if the US is struggling hard to come out of its slave past, India too lives with the memories of the partition. Both nations do still define their identities only through the dark past.
2
I would do the following:
The big problem here is the rewrite of history in that contemporary Southerners have embraced the myth that the Civil War was fought for honor and states rights. There is no honor in slavery. There is no patriotism in open insurrection. There is no glory in death. You just end up dead.
I would let the statues remain but install a huge plaque next to each one that tells the true story. Have it say something like:
This man led a treasonous armed revolt against the United States of America for the sole purpose of maintaining the evil institution of slavery. He is not a hero. The ownership of human beings is the most disgraceful and horrible of acts. This statue stands as a reminder of that disgrace and dishonor that those who supported slavery brought to our nation.
Now that's preserving history.
The big problem here is the rewrite of history in that contemporary Southerners have embraced the myth that the Civil War was fought for honor and states rights. There is no honor in slavery. There is no patriotism in open insurrection. There is no glory in death. You just end up dead.
I would let the statues remain but install a huge plaque next to each one that tells the true story. Have it say something like:
This man led a treasonous armed revolt against the United States of America for the sole purpose of maintaining the evil institution of slavery. He is not a hero. The ownership of human beings is the most disgraceful and horrible of acts. This statue stands as a reminder of that disgrace and dishonor that those who supported slavery brought to our nation.
Now that's preserving history.
161
"There is no honor in slavery. There is no patriotism in open insurrection."
You are aware both of these things would apply to many of our Founding Fathers, yes?
You are aware both of these things would apply to many of our Founding Fathers, yes?
1
Amativa,
Rebelling for freedom and rebelling for slavery are opposite motivations. Murder and killing for self defense are both homicide. That doesn't murder is ever justified.
Yes the founding fathers were slavers. That doesn't justify slavery. Just because someone does something wrong, that doesn't mean it's OK for others to do wrong also. Women could not own property in 1800 either.
Rebelling for freedom and rebelling for slavery are opposite motivations. Murder and killing for self defense are both homicide. That doesn't murder is ever justified.
Yes the founding fathers were slavers. That doesn't justify slavery. Just because someone does something wrong, that doesn't mean it's OK for others to do wrong also. Women could not own property in 1800 either.
2
That works if the statue is placed on the ground and no bigger than life-size. Bigger-than-life statues and statues on pedestals glorify their subjects visually, no matter what text you place at their feet. They do not deserve those places of honor. Not unless, perhaps, even larger statues of prominent black people or abolitionists look down on them.
1
Ideally, in the long run, the statues will become part of the story (in museums), which must include not only slavery and Jim Crow, but also the 20th century attempts to sanitize slavery and re-write our shameful chapter.
A necessary part of that historical telling must also break through the northern delusion that the south was 100% to blame. Slavery existed in places like NY & NJ for some time, though not to the extent it did in the south. Abolitionists established the nation of Liberia believing that blacks were different and should live closer to the equator (and co-incidentally not live with or compete with northern whites). While the north did go to war to end slavery, it was never a case of the innocent and morally upright north against the evil south. History is never so clean as the victors chose to paint it.
A necessary part of that historical telling must also break through the northern delusion that the south was 100% to blame. Slavery existed in places like NY & NJ for some time, though not to the extent it did in the south. Abolitionists established the nation of Liberia believing that blacks were different and should live closer to the equator (and co-incidentally not live with or compete with northern whites). While the north did go to war to end slavery, it was never a case of the innocent and morally upright north against the evil south. History is never so clean as the victors chose to paint it.
13
The Southern states seceded and the Civil War began, and the South WAS 100% to blame for those actions. Almost all of the modern world - the North included - had abolished black slavery. It was the Confederacy who based its society and its planned new government on black slavery. Blaming the North as much as the South is false equivalence. No nation is innocent or morally upright, but on this issue, in the 1860s, the North was far more upright than the South.
6
Well said. These statues have a place in historical context, particularly those erected as a means to suppress people of color.
I have had enough of arm chair historians and there bitter comdenations as if they personally excised the cancer of slavery and now the rest of us MUST listen to them in detail of THEIR accomplishments.
Slavery, discrimination, Jim Crow and genocide are a legacy of all Americans whether we directly participated or not.
No one person bears the responsibility of this history, nor is personally responsible to correct it.
What we do today to make America a more just, inclusive and "more perfect" place is the legacy that will be left.
I have had enough of arm chair historians and there bitter comdenations as if they personally excised the cancer of slavery and now the rest of us MUST listen to them in detail of THEIR accomplishments.
Slavery, discrimination, Jim Crow and genocide are a legacy of all Americans whether we directly participated or not.
No one person bears the responsibility of this history, nor is personally responsible to correct it.
What we do today to make America a more just, inclusive and "more perfect" place is the legacy that will be left.
1
@Brookhawk: while I am not a Southerner, and oppose the very idea of enslaving any human being .... secession was not illegal in 1861. The Constitution does not even address it.
It was LIncoln who obsessively refused to accept the secession of the Southern States, as it would have made the US far less powerful and more fragmented, and economically poorer. Lincoln was totally willing to accept slavery IN RETURN for preserving the union.
Sorry, but the North was equally to blame for the war. They could have let the South go its own way.
It was LIncoln who obsessively refused to accept the secession of the Southern States, as it would have made the US far less powerful and more fragmented, and economically poorer. Lincoln was totally willing to accept slavery IN RETURN for preserving the union.
Sorry, but the North was equally to blame for the war. They could have let the South go its own way.
SENSE AND SENSIBILITIES
Everybody has a distinct sense of history
Some say history is a fable agreed upon
While others believe it is a window to the past
Whatever it may be, it cannot be a justification for prejudice
Perfect is the enemy of the good
But Sensibilities cannot be made uniform
For Perceptions matter, whether we consider them to be
Only interesting or also valid
History is the story of a generation of a people
But it cannot be used as a ruse to condemn people for ever
Redemption is only possible
When One realizes that One cannot
Right the Wrongs of the past
Let bygones be bygones
Hence, Let us Live the moment
For in its heart lies eternity and
Life in itself is an inspiration profound !
Everybody has a distinct sense of history
Some say history is a fable agreed upon
While others believe it is a window to the past
Whatever it may be, it cannot be a justification for prejudice
Perfect is the enemy of the good
But Sensibilities cannot be made uniform
For Perceptions matter, whether we consider them to be
Only interesting or also valid
History is the story of a generation of a people
But it cannot be used as a ruse to condemn people for ever
Redemption is only possible
When One realizes that One cannot
Right the Wrongs of the past
Let bygones be bygones
Hence, Let us Live the moment
For in its heart lies eternity and
Life in itself is an inspiration profound !
8
"There is a danger in the rush to remove these statues. To excise history is to risk being punished by it."
Roger Cohen confuses history with mythology. The statues were intended to perpetuate a myth--a myth that, to many, resonates as fact. The focus in the debate over Confederate statuary has been on the reasons for taking them down. But it makes more sense to examine the motive for erecting them in the first place: i.e., as a means of perpetuating white supremacy. Leaving them up wouldn't preserve "history." It would preserve that original intent. Just ask "the very fine people" who marched in Charlottesville to preserve them.
Roger Cohen confuses history with mythology. The statues were intended to perpetuate a myth--a myth that, to many, resonates as fact. The focus in the debate over Confederate statuary has been on the reasons for taking them down. But it makes more sense to examine the motive for erecting them in the first place: i.e., as a means of perpetuating white supremacy. Leaving them up wouldn't preserve "history." It would preserve that original intent. Just ask "the very fine people" who marched in Charlottesville to preserve them.
117
A scholar needs to obtain the briefs that gave direction to the artists of these statues. They are statements of the intent of those who paid for the statues. Like the words of Confederate politicians and of the constitutions of their government, these briefs will provide unequivocal evidence of the purpose of these statues. This is the history to which our nation needs to pay attention.
1
It is noteworthy that statue-proponents prefer Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, field generals who represent a "never take me alive" attitude, as opposed to, say, Jefferson Davis, who represents the Confederacy for what it was: a weak state, badly run, unrecognized internationally, and unable to provide even the most basic government services to its citizens.
Well said. So many people I've encountered still argue the Lost Cause mythology of state's rights and tariffs as the true cause of the war. But it always boils down to slavery.
1
Setting up straw men for conflict is a human failing. Like the Golden Calf the statues have been imbued with greater meaning than they should clouding our best human tool to reduce conflict, observant careful reasoning. The issue is more than slavery, it is the notion that war solves a pressing issue. For both sides other solutions to end the impasse were rejected by using emotional means rather than establishing objectives, namely economic stability, and a united nation through a better brand of thinking. How long does it take to listen to the wise, Benjamin Franklin for one: "Never has there been a good war or a bad peace."
6
Ben Franklin was, alas, long dead at the start of the Civil War. It would be interesting to know what he might have said or done had he lived in those days. England managed to end the slave trade in the British Empire without a civil war…. as Adam Hochschild writes brilliantly in “Bury the Chains.” I suspect that Ben might have concluded that avoiding war and letting slavery continue in the south might have been a bad compromise…. one that the south aborted by firing on Fort Sumpter and rallying the white “elites” of the south to a variety of false flags (“state’s rights”) that wound up destroying much of their wealth and slaughtering tens of thousands of America’s young men.
It would have been a “bad peace” to have allowed slavery to continue in any part of the US, and the evil men who benefited from and supported slavery, and led the south to war, deserve to be recognized for what they were, and not honored. And that includes Lee, who, however “noble” in bearing, led the evil fight for an evil cause…. and was properly defeated.
It would have been a “bad peace” to have allowed slavery to continue in any part of the US, and the evil men who benefited from and supported slavery, and led the south to war, deserve to be recognized for what they were, and not honored. And that includes Lee, who, however “noble” in bearing, led the evil fight for an evil cause…. and was properly defeated.
4
The south brought on the war. They attacked Fort Sumpter and the United States.
I say, Never has there been a good slave state or a bad land of free men and women. Quote that!
I say, Never has there been a good slave state or a bad land of free men and women. Quote that!
4
We are living in a time that demands that Americans take responsibility for our dark deeds throughout our history.
It extends beyond the atrocities inflicted on people of color and Native Americans in our own country. It encompasses our morally reprehensible belief that we are entitled to do as we please on the world stage. We are feeling the terrible impact of having attacked sovereign nations and dismantled their governments, all the while maintaining we have the God-given right to do this.
Americans have to face uncomfortable truths and a loss of innocence. Trump's victory showed us how out of control and mean-spirited our nation can truly be.
Even a little bully in North Korea can say with some justification that America is not the only nation that can be allowed to explode horrific bombs. This time we are rather helpless in the face of his defiance. How does it feel?
Buddhists settle conflict by sitting down and owning up to their own complicity. Finger pointing is not allowed. It is a wonderful exercise in not always blaming the opposition, but attempting to understand how we all have contributed to a bad situation. Complacency and smugness are not allowed.
We have work to do. We have to do it with courage and integrity. The mainstream media can help by not glossing over where we are and have been moral failures.
It extends beyond the atrocities inflicted on people of color and Native Americans in our own country. It encompasses our morally reprehensible belief that we are entitled to do as we please on the world stage. We are feeling the terrible impact of having attacked sovereign nations and dismantled their governments, all the while maintaining we have the God-given right to do this.
Americans have to face uncomfortable truths and a loss of innocence. Trump's victory showed us how out of control and mean-spirited our nation can truly be.
Even a little bully in North Korea can say with some justification that America is not the only nation that can be allowed to explode horrific bombs. This time we are rather helpless in the face of his defiance. How does it feel?
Buddhists settle conflict by sitting down and owning up to their own complicity. Finger pointing is not allowed. It is a wonderful exercise in not always blaming the opposition, but attempting to understand how we all have contributed to a bad situation. Complacency and smugness are not allowed.
We have work to do. We have to do it with courage and integrity. The mainstream media can help by not glossing over where we are and have been moral failures.
48
I agree the statues need to be housed in an appropriate museum. Fighting over their survival or removal in southern states only fuels political rhetoric and the ugly forces of white supremacy.
For a realistic. constructive lesson the real impact of the Civil War, I recommend a trip to Gettysburg which I visited a year ago. To prepare, I re-watched key Ken Burns' "Civil War" episodes and read "The Killer Angels." In Gettysburg, we toured the battlefields with an credentialed guide so passionate about his educational mission that our 3-hour tour morphed into four.
To say this war was horrific is an understatement. But Gettysburg isn't a theme park. It's a living, breathing monument to the struggle that defined, and continues to define, a defining moment that haunts America to this day.
I feel we should honor the past by studying it, not fighting over statuary placed as to revere a past that gets more glorified the less it's understood.
Without learning about, and accepting, the war's causes, and consequences, how can we ever come to grips with the hold it continues to exert on the American psyche?
For a realistic. constructive lesson the real impact of the Civil War, I recommend a trip to Gettysburg which I visited a year ago. To prepare, I re-watched key Ken Burns' "Civil War" episodes and read "The Killer Angels." In Gettysburg, we toured the battlefields with an credentialed guide so passionate about his educational mission that our 3-hour tour morphed into four.
To say this war was horrific is an understatement. But Gettysburg isn't a theme park. It's a living, breathing monument to the struggle that defined, and continues to define, a defining moment that haunts America to this day.
I feel we should honor the past by studying it, not fighting over statuary placed as to revere a past that gets more glorified the less it's understood.
Without learning about, and accepting, the war's causes, and consequences, how can we ever come to grips with the hold it continues to exert on the American psyche?
44
But that is what the left is doing Christine -- destroying art, destroying history and imposing a lefty liberal theory or analysis about the war -- every time this is discussed in these forums, at least a dozen comments are about "the South should be punished as treasonous! Lee should have been hung as a traitor!"
That is not the message of Gettysburg, which is a necropolis to the dead of the Civil War -- on both sides -- and which has statues of the heroes of BOTH SIDES.
Your vile lefty liberal barbarian art-destroying "pals" are going to tear down, and melt down, and eradicate every CIvil War statue and don't dream for ONE SECOND that Gettysburg is not on that "hit list".
That is not the message of Gettysburg, which is a necropolis to the dead of the Civil War -- on both sides -- and which has statues of the heroes of BOTH SIDES.
Your vile lefty liberal barbarian art-destroying "pals" are going to tear down, and melt down, and eradicate every CIvil War statue and don't dream for ONE SECOND that Gettysburg is not on that "hit list".
This column needs to be read by so many people in America.. By people who believe the "War between the States" was about preserving States' Rights, by those who believe that the statues are innocent memorials of great men ... but it won't be.
If the Lee and other statues were erected by loyal members of the defeated army, that would be one thing. But as has been amply documented, they were erected two, three, four generations later to underline that even if the North thought it had won the war, the South still controlled its land in its own way.
If the Lee and other statues were erected by loyal members of the defeated army, that would be one thing. But as has been amply documented, they were erected two, three, four generations later to underline that even if the North thought it had won the war, the South still controlled its land in its own way.
43
Your point on the later erection of memorials to the Confederacy is well made. Another factor now, is the demographic shift in the US from north to south by many from the north has now exposed the egregiousness of these statues. The influx of both blacks and whites from the north has raised the awareness of the incongruence of the meaning behind these marble and concrete symbols of a lost cause.
1
Thank you for reminding us of the history of the statues themselves. This is the history that is important to consider in deciding whether they should be removed.
I have read a biography of Abraham Lincoln and I have understood that for the Confederate States, the war with the North, was as the fight between David and Goliath.
The bravery that the men of the South showed during that long and bloody battle, won the respect of the President and of the regular Army generals. It is, I believe, in that sense that the Confederate statues should be viewed. They are not honouring slavery, but the individual bravery of the Southern soldier. They were giving up their lives for a bad cause, but they were Americans too and being so, deserve our respect.
The bravery that the men of the South showed during that long and bloody battle, won the respect of the President and of the regular Army generals. It is, I believe, in that sense that the Confederate statues should be viewed. They are not honouring slavery, but the individual bravery of the Southern soldier. They were giving up their lives for a bad cause, but they were Americans too and being so, deserve our respect.
15
Remembering the dead is one thing; exalting those who sent them to slaughter - and the cause for which they fought - is another. From another perspective - the German soldier certainly fought bravely in WWII - are there many statues to them in Belgium?
13
Then put up statues of the common Confederate soldier, not of those who lead them into attacking their own nation for the cause of perpetuating a system that their free labor less valuable because of slave labor.
3
Let's build memorials to black endurance, to black families that suffered, to black women nursing mulatto children, to dying white confederate soldiers. Let's have statues of soldiers trying to comfort their dying friends. Let's have statues of the starving at Andersonville instead of portly men standing upright in immaculate uniforms. Let's have statues to the truth instead of to lies.
10
An anguished cry. Such cries have been ripped from us since long before our founding as a nation. They paled in desperation compared to the cries of the millions of primary victims. But despite those cries, in April of 1861 it all came to a head and we began killing one another in increasingly horrific numbers. Before it was over, hundreds of thousands of Americans had been killed and few families were unaffected, in large part to eradicate black slavery in our land but also to prove to the world and our posterity that government of, by and for the people would not perish from the Earth ... at least not in that generation. But we lost a president who might have healed us had he lived, and perpetuated the exclusion that was the central cause of that war for yet another century.
I don't believe we should melt down these statues and other totems of Confederate memory either, but neither can we afford to coddle convictions that lay at the heart of that terrible conflict. The beliefs that made that war inevitable are still a part of us, and must be fought every day until they truly have been extinguished.
Removal of the remembrances from our public places is happening, slowly but surely, and because museums are expensive not all of them will be preserved. To the extent that any are, the context in which they're preserved should make clear that as a people we condemn what they represented.
We should never forget, but it's time to move on ... while remaining watchful.
I don't believe we should melt down these statues and other totems of Confederate memory either, but neither can we afford to coddle convictions that lay at the heart of that terrible conflict. The beliefs that made that war inevitable are still a part of us, and must be fought every day until they truly have been extinguished.
Removal of the remembrances from our public places is happening, slowly but surely, and because museums are expensive not all of them will be preserved. To the extent that any are, the context in which they're preserved should make clear that as a people we condemn what they represented.
We should never forget, but it's time to move on ... while remaining watchful.
152
Richard L.
This is the very first time I agree with your premise.
This is the very first time I agree with your premise.
9
@Richard Luettgen
Ah, you have a heart, big today. You remind us that one president did have the best words.
In our small city, our tallest pedestal is at Lee Circle. Seems a fitting place for a statue of Lincoln and a name change to Lincoln Circle. There's room enough to reinstall Lee's statue near the base along with a plaque bearing Lee's less well-known words of reconciliation.
We are the United States of America, charged to persevere in having a government of, by and for the people. People, persons, not corporations.
Ah, you have a heart, big today. You remind us that one president did have the best words.
In our small city, our tallest pedestal is at Lee Circle. Seems a fitting place for a statue of Lincoln and a name change to Lincoln Circle. There's room enough to reinstall Lee's statue near the base along with a plaque bearing Lee's less well-known words of reconciliation.
We are the United States of America, charged to persevere in having a government of, by and for the people. People, persons, not corporations.
59
Luettgin' comment is mostly right. Too bad he thinks reconstruction was wrong. Defeating racism means removing the badges of slavery including the fake monuments AND empowering the freedman and his progeny.
3
The South's version of its history, embodied in these noxious statues, is that the War Between the States was a dispute between white men, that we should be proud of all who bravely fought, and that we should come together, now that the war is over, and live peaceably with each other.
The South's conditions for living peaceably with and within the union were that slavery would not be unduely criticized by outsiders and that the South should be left alone to handle its race problem as it saw fit. And from the end of Reconstruction to the Civil Rights movement, so it was. The South had turned a total military defeat into a partial political and ideological victory. The statues were a part of this.
There were parts of the South that were forced by geography to secede, and some citizens from those parts fought in the Union army. Their bravery is not commemorated in statues. There were many blacks from the South who fought in the Union army, and were arguably braver than the Confederate soldiers because they would not be taken prisoner if their side lost the battle, but at best reenslaved and otherwise slaughtered. Their bravery is also not commemorated in statues.
Perhaps what we need is not fewer statues, but rather more.
The South's conditions for living peaceably with and within the union were that slavery would not be unduely criticized by outsiders and that the South should be left alone to handle its race problem as it saw fit. And from the end of Reconstruction to the Civil Rights movement, so it was. The South had turned a total military defeat into a partial political and ideological victory. The statues were a part of this.
There were parts of the South that were forced by geography to secede, and some citizens from those parts fought in the Union army. Their bravery is not commemorated in statues. There were many blacks from the South who fought in the Union army, and were arguably braver than the Confederate soldiers because they would not be taken prisoner if their side lost the battle, but at best reenslaved and otherwise slaughtered. Their bravery is also not commemorated in statues.
Perhaps what we need is not fewer statues, but rather more.
154
Amen!
No, not the Souths version. Its some white mens version. These monuments are all over this nation. The Klan had chapters all over the country. Today white nationalists and supremacists are crawling out from under their rocks in Wisconsin and Iowa. This isnt a Southern issue, its an American one.
The South had slaves, but the North ran the trade and did the importing. The money from the trafficking in Africans built the North. Again, this is an American problem.
The South had slaves, but the North ran the trade and did the importing. The money from the trafficking in Africans built the North. Again, this is an American problem.
Bravery, clarity, credibility and honesty have merit for the decent. sdavidc9’s comment, worth all that, outweighs public spectacles of Confederate statues honoring disloyalty and immorality, sets forth plain reasons against worthless Confederate fellow-traveling and frivolous Southern chauvinism. Confederates, too young to know why, are still fighting the Civil War. If bravery, clarity, credibility and honesty had merit in the Confederacy fellow-traveling would stop bottom-feeding, reform and contribute to the future. Confederates say they were not alive then so are not responsible for back-then. Stop acting like it.
Listen, Lee lover and truth evader,
The Petersburg Battle of the Crater
Several hundred black prisoners taken
All executed, mercy forsaken,
General Lee, five hundred yards away,
Saw the carnage yet not one word did say,
No comment made then, nor comment later,
A responsibility evader.
The Petersburg Battle of the Crater
Several hundred black prisoners taken
All executed, mercy forsaken,
General Lee, five hundred yards away,
Saw the carnage yet not one word did say,
No comment made then, nor comment later,
A responsibility evader.
206
Lee, and the rest, should have been hanged at the end of the war.
THIS is History!
1
Sorry to interrupt beat poetry night with actual history, but in case anyone is interested in some facts... Yes, several hundred black Union troops died trying to surrender. But bear in mind this came shortly after Confederate troops (those close to the blast that created the crater but who still survived) tried to surrender and got the bayonet instead. Two wrongs don't make a right, but I suggest if you watched your friends get slaughtered when they tried to surrender, you might be disinclined - an hour or so later - to gracefully accept the surrender of the troops who did the slaughtering. Of course, then there's another undisputed fact to consider: many of the black soldiers who died trying to surrender were actually killed by their own side, the white Union troops (who, let's be honest, were no less racist by today's standards) who blamed them incorrectly for bungling what should have been an easy victory and bayoneted their black compatriots themselves. How many died at the hands of their own and how many at Confederate hands is unknowable. As a final aside, Lee was a great distance away when this was happening, and it's hardly as though the man had nothing else to do than sit and watch. He was busy, and it's thought he knew nothing of this specific matter until later that day. Just in case you want to torture some more rhymes, you might want to include the whole story.
1
Removing Confederate statues of defeated generals doesn't remove history—it removes the denial of history! The statues were erected as a part of a systematic plan to deny history—to deny that 11 states bolted from the Union before any action on slavery was taken; to deny that their secession at its heart and center was about the institution of slavery (as plainly recorded in their declarations of secession), and, at their time of placement, to establish massive symbols of white supremacy, then enshrined in the politics and culture of the Old South, and beyond.
Removing the statues balances history. And history itself will recall why that rebalancing was necessary and will not forget the modern supporters of these symbols of denial marched to Nazi slogans with clubs and guns. Trump said “they” were trying to “erase our history,” quoting in white supremacists memes and talking points. Actually,g their removal corrects our history! That the nation abandoned long dead symbols of oppression and war, whose valiant cause and righteous fervor was white supremacy and its institutions that imported African immigrants and kept them as forced labor for centuries in legal chains as property without rights.
Like the flag in battle, history will recall the victory won over white supremacy, and its history of slavery and oppression, the day the statues come down.
Removing the statues balances history. And history itself will recall why that rebalancing was necessary and will not forget the modern supporters of these symbols of denial marched to Nazi slogans with clubs and guns. Trump said “they” were trying to “erase our history,” quoting in white supremacists memes and talking points. Actually,g their removal corrects our history! That the nation abandoned long dead symbols of oppression and war, whose valiant cause and righteous fervor was white supremacy and its institutions that imported African immigrants and kept them as forced labor for centuries in legal chains as property without rights.
Like the flag in battle, history will recall the victory won over white supremacy, and its history of slavery and oppression, the day the statues come down.
310
Beautifully stated , as usual.
4
Agree with this whole heartedly and I would like to add a comment on a recent phenomenon that I recently learned about, that of the concept of the "snowflake." It apparently is a slur designed to offend liberals who in the insulter's mind are too easily insulted. Now that I know what a "snowflake " is and who is making use of this newfound epithet(?), I have a ready answer "Well at least I'm not a supporter of the man who said that there were very fine people marching with the Nazis. Put me on the side of anti-Nazi any day, anywhere, anytime. "
5
Walter.....Yes, excellent point. Keeping the statues in public places, imposed on all citizens, is a denial of history. Removing them to museums would be a correction to our distorted history.
America should not pass up this chance to assert the ideals of its Constitution. And to finally face reality—that the South which these statues glorify was actually a terrorist state for blacks, existing within the land of the Constitution.
Maybe finally removing these statues to museums would help the US to move forward from our racial divisions. Electing our 1st black president wasn’t enough.
America should not pass up this chance to assert the ideals of its Constitution. And to finally face reality—that the South which these statues glorify was actually a terrorist state for blacks, existing within the land of the Constitution.
Maybe finally removing these statues to museums would help the US to move forward from our racial divisions. Electing our 1st black president wasn’t enough.
3
Melt 90% of them. For the remainder, put up a sign saying, in prominent letters, "Traitor; fighter for slavery; killer of US soldiers"