That prisons are counterproductive is evident here. These women have no marketable skills going in nor coming out. As the article says, they're not violent offenders. I won't launch into a diatribe, but I know we can do better than chain gangs.
13
Inmates on California fire crews earn 3 days off their sentence for every day worked. It is a privilege to be assigned to one.
A volunteer civilian can earn a "red card" and be fighting wildland fires with three weekends of training. Suggesting a three-year apprenticeship is required to do the job is intentionally misleading.
A volunteer civilian can earn a "red card" and be fighting wildland fires with three weekends of training. Suggesting a three-year apprenticeship is required to do the job is intentionally misleading.
1
In addition to fighting fires, when incarcerated men and women get out of prison they should get with the SBA and explore a dike building business as we seem to be in the age of floods.
I thought I had finished with the magazine but then I turned to this article. Thank you for your revealing and moving story of these women and their resolve, including the profile of Shawna Lynn Jones. It was an eye-opener with a sad ending for this woman and also for the others denied an opportunity upon release.
7
You can't see value in these jobs, but the incarcerated women sure do. As the article states, they would be willing to do it for free.
Beautifully written, moving and though- provoking piece. Kudos to reporter Jaime Lowe.
Beautifully written, moving and though- provoking piece. Kudos to reporter Jaime Lowe.
4
I've already complimented Ms. Lowe on her elegant writing, but just want to give a shout-out to Peter Bohler, the photographer. Gorgeous pictures with beautiful stylings. Annie Liebovitz could not have created better images.
7
As a Californian I appreciate the sacrifices these women make to keep our state safe. I agree the pay seems very low for the commitment required - it should be higher. And if an inmate dies on the job it seems their families should be adequately compensated.
5
I really hate these types of programs. It is unethical and slave labor.
2
The article talked about the second status of an inmate, but was written in a manner to indicate that bias. In all other times articles, the men and women are referred to as Ms. or Mr., yet, Ms. Jones was referred to as "Jones." It seemed a subtle way of reinforcing the fact, that despite her heroic actions, she was, nonetheless, an inmate.
Few agencies have "Rehabilitation" in their title, which implies, at least some effort is made toward helping inmates achieve new skills. I believe there are a total of 4 agencies that include the word "rehabilitation. "Department of Corrections," on the other hand, implies warehousing of people. Ohio's agency is the "Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Correction," implying rehabilitation first, and correction second.
Inmate labor is very controversial. Generally, agriculture is the only prison industry that doesn't bring constituent complaints. People want them to work, but not at things that take jobs away from "real" people, like building government buildings. I suspect that firefighting is another job that doesn't bring taxpayer complaints. But, there should be a path to a job at the end. For many inmates the struggle to find obs when released is too hard a task, and they resume their old ways. If a path could exist to a real job, it could save many inmates. For some people, they simply need to know they are of value to someone.
Few agencies have "Rehabilitation" in their title, which implies, at least some effort is made toward helping inmates achieve new skills. I believe there are a total of 4 agencies that include the word "rehabilitation. "Department of Corrections," on the other hand, implies warehousing of people. Ohio's agency is the "Ohio Department of Rehabilitation and Correction," implying rehabilitation first, and correction second.
Inmate labor is very controversial. Generally, agriculture is the only prison industry that doesn't bring constituent complaints. People want them to work, but not at things that take jobs away from "real" people, like building government buildings. I suspect that firefighting is another job that doesn't bring taxpayer complaints. But, there should be a path to a job at the end. For many inmates the struggle to find obs when released is too hard a task, and they resume their old ways. If a path could exist to a real job, it could save many inmates. For some people, they simply need to know they are of value to someone.
8
I've been in Malibu firecamp. It's very rewarding. Women learn to work hard, teamwork,. I didn't know Shawna. But being a part of Malibu, anything that happens u feel a part of. My deepest condolences to her family.
Reading some of these comments makes me laugh. I liked being in firecamp. I fought fire when I paroled the first time in 2001. I worked for a contract crew off the Forrest service. So you can get some jobs. And it gave me self confidence
Reading some of these comments makes me laugh. I liked being in firecamp. I fought fire when I paroled the first time in 2001. I worked for a contract crew off the Forrest service. So you can get some jobs. And it gave me self confidence
14
I work for one of the 14 1937 act counties, and know for a fact, that both make and female firefighters who complete the program have qualified for and wirk in Calfire and other programs. They go on to have good lives, and more important do not go back to jail. Not sure why NY Times wrote this.
This is a beautifully written piece.
1
Good article but why leave Jones death unexplained. I had to find the reason elsewhere? A boulder
I believe is a wonderful program and very positive for the inmates, I am not sure if you criticize the program but the NYT ideology is that way, perhaps young male inmates could learn something from similar programs, work and discipline, what's wrong with that.
2
Wonderful article. My heart goes out to her mother. Give all these women a chance when they finish their time, please. So much gratitude.
6
The state will train these women to keep them occupied while they are in prison but won't hire them because it doesn't hire felons? That makes no sense at all. If we want ex-cons to stay ex-cons states ought to be training them for jobs that they can be hired for. If not this is just a way to reduce costs at the expense of their lives.
17
Any of them could have been my daughter or even granddaughter... So many mixed emotions. I could imagine the rough life they had before imprisonment but they have become beautiful, inside and out.
Yet, romanticizing a chain gang is just misguided. Yes, the program is a good program, socially and personally; however, they are still part of a chain gang. And what about the inmates the warden volunteered to the Harvey flood? They are a honorable bunch. People who are not incarcerated could have volunteered in a heartbeat. Still, the imprisonment dynamics just change the perspective
Yet, romanticizing a chain gang is just misguided. Yes, the program is a good program, socially and personally; however, they are still part of a chain gang. And what about the inmates the warden volunteered to the Harvey flood? They are a honorable bunch. People who are not incarcerated could have volunteered in a heartbeat. Still, the imprisonment dynamics just change the perspective
7
I believe the article is pretty clear that this is volunteer work and thus doesn't qualify as chain gang labor. Whether this sort of work leads to jobs in the real world after discharge, I expect it will be carefully considered by prospective employers as well as probation overseers.
Thanks, NYT, for another interesting, thought-provoking article.
Thanks, NYT, for another interesting, thought-provoking article.
i couldn't get through the whole article. my sister was in Malibu for several years, and now she works as a firefighter with the national forestry dept. in fact, she's on a fire right now. it's a great program, a hell of a lot better than other ways of being in prison. it's not about money. it changed her life. i wonder how many of you can understand what that means.
64
We've come so far towards equality - now we have chain gangs for women!
15
My thought exactly. Equal opportunity slave camps
The new slave labor. What's next? Sending them to clean up hazmat sites?
I'm all for giving inmates a chance at developing skills that will lead to meaningful employment once they leave prison. But the work should not put them in danger, and if it does, it should pay accordingly. Firefighting on this level is a profession that takes much training and skill; having these women do it constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. By no means is this the same as the usual work you see done by prison work details outside the walls. I can see no value in, or excuse for, this program.
I'm all for giving inmates a chance at developing skills that will lead to meaningful employment once they leave prison. But the work should not put them in danger, and if it does, it should pay accordingly. Firefighting on this level is a profession that takes much training and skill; having these women do it constitutes cruel and unusual punishment. By no means is this the same as the usual work you see done by prison work details outside the walls. I can see no value in, or excuse for, this program.
15
Kinda hard to see how it constitutes "cruel and unusual punishment" when it's the women themselves that volunteer for it.
4
Do you know something about the program that the participants themselves, who appear to be all for it, don't? Did you not read this article, which if nothing else makes it fully clear how highly the women themselves value the program? Would you abolish the program against their wishes?
5
This was a very good story. The author missed one piece of the history, which I am sure the department didn't want to share. While having male inmates fight fires is an old program it took a woman inmate taking California to court to win the right for female inmates to participate. This was late 70s/early 80. I've forgotten her name, but she was a young woman serving a term for involuntary manslaughter with a 3 year sentence (old law) . She only had 18 months left to serve when she won.
The misogynist men who ran the program were so furious she won they made her a trainer to satisfy the courts but never allowed her to go out to a camp. They also insisted the women would get no "special privileges" beyond what the men got--which meant the exact same clothing. They saw their mistake and backed down when the women insisted they wanted bras, but it took a mighty fight for the women to be allowed a nightgown. They insisted the men slept in their underwear so the women should too. They were finally convinced most women don't sleep in bras and since the staff were male they needed something to cover themselves going to the bathroom and showers. It seems so logical but they fought it and fought it until heads above set them straight. They did everything they could in the early days to sabotage the women, but the women persevered and proved they were at least as good as the male crews.
The misogynist men who ran the program were so furious she won they made her a trainer to satisfy the courts but never allowed her to go out to a camp. They also insisted the women would get no "special privileges" beyond what the men got--which meant the exact same clothing. They saw their mistake and backed down when the women insisted they wanted bras, but it took a mighty fight for the women to be allowed a nightgown. They insisted the men slept in their underwear so the women should too. They were finally convinced most women don't sleep in bras and since the staff were male they needed something to cover themselves going to the bathroom and showers. It seems so logical but they fought it and fought it until heads above set them straight. They did everything they could in the early days to sabotage the women, but the women persevered and proved they were at least as good as the male crews.
72
Thank you calannie for adding to this story.
1
Sounds like a win win while doing time. It would seem most unfair to give prisoners an advantage over others when seeking employment in the field after they have served their time. As a result of their work they should qualify for free training for jobs where the demand was in proportion to the supply. Being a paid firefighter is one of the most desirable and hardest jobs to get in the USA. I know people who have volunteered for years and took college courses in the hope of securing a full time firefighter position but most oftn had no success as the demand was far less than the supply of qualified candidates.
6
While I realize that true of municipal firefighters, is that really true of this type of firefighter?
1
Big difference in the desirability and career path of work as a full-time local firefighter and a seasonal wildfire fighter.
1
Experience is the greatest teacher - however you get it.
As a firefighter and as a bonded team member.
As a firefighter and as a bonded team member.
Hats off to women, usually under-appreciated and over-extended in their services. Are we taking them for granted? Let's hope not.
12
These women will know forever that they truly are grave, and that they have saved lives and property.
There should be some way of expunging their civilian records so that they can go on to careers and wide community acceptance.
There should be some way of expunging their civilian records so that they can go on to careers and wide community acceptance.
28
If women are now accepted for duty in front-line combat, front-line firefighting isn't much different. I have nothing but admiration for these tough-minded ladies.
20
You can say they aren't paid enough and are being exploited or you can say they are benefiting themselves and society by finding the value of work and an ability to control their own destiny. I worked as garbage man and lawn cutter when I was younger. The well heeled made fun of me, but I took the lessons learned from hard, dirty work and applied them to everything else and have done ok because of it. Is it easier to have your way smoothed by privledge and/or money? Probably, but you can still make your own way without it. These women are doing that.
11
I wish the reporter had asked more questions--and gotten answers.
Did Shawna's mother get nothing except what was raised? Was there no investigation? No one held accountable?
Did Shawna's mother get nothing except what was raised? Was there no investigation? No one held accountable?
11
Brilliant article. The State of California needs to hire these women when they are released. What are they waiting for? These women are hard working and dedicated. Give them a chance!
37
I never knew so many women inmates served on fire crews and hope the experience prepares them for their next challenge- working on the outside.
It should be clarified that the Pulaski in not a "shovel-like" tool. The Pulaski tool has its own lore of bravery that compliments the men and women who use it in firefighting:
https://streamsandforests.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/ed-pulaski-and-the-to...
It should be clarified that the Pulaski in not a "shovel-like" tool. The Pulaski tool has its own lore of bravery that compliments the men and women who use it in firefighting:
https://streamsandforests.wordpress.com/2011/01/27/ed-pulaski-and-the-to...
9
Comments like this make the comments section worthwhile. Thank you for the link. Very interesting!
What better motivator is there to keep more to keep more people in prison? Pay little, train little, with meager compensation for their hard work and sometimes loss of life. It's the prison industrial complex in all its glory.
24
Part 2
There are food vendors and clothing vendors and when I tell you that a fire Camp resembles a mini City there so many opportunities for women to take advantage of and the vendor pay is very Hefty. All the accolades by the responders on this post is great however the greatest thing you can do for these ladies and guys who participate in this program is to find a pathway where they can become self-sufficient financially if they want to stay in this field. It was a great program for me I ended up getting out and getting my doctorate but the discipline the camaraderie in the low in this Camp is immeasurable.
There are food vendors and clothing vendors and when I tell you that a fire Camp resembles a mini City there so many opportunities for women to take advantage of and the vendor pay is very Hefty. All the accolades by the responders on this post is great however the greatest thing you can do for these ladies and guys who participate in this program is to find a pathway where they can become self-sufficient financially if they want to stay in this field. It was a great program for me I ended up getting out and getting my doctorate but the discipline the camaraderie in the low in this Camp is immeasurable.
18
It is a great story about courageous women. Undertrained women doing a dangerous job and getting paid $2/hour. The state is saving millions of dollars using these women rather than the professional highly trained and adequately paid firefighters. This amounts to slave labor and taking jobs away from professionals. Our for profit prisons are fast becoming a new labor market that corporations and states are taking advantage over to lower costs. However as taxpayers we are paying high amounts to incarcerate many who are non-violent offenders. For profit prisons are getting contracts that ensure a certain percentage of the cells occupied. If people can be trained to do jobs despite a criminal record then spend the money on adequately training them BEFORE they get a criminal record. Spend the money you would spend on an inmates on the areas that have the most offenders BEFORE they start offending. If the money spent on inmates was spent on support services BEFORE they were incarcerated we would live in a better world.
38
One potential problem. Would most of these people take that training before they went to jail? It's like druggies. How many have heard the warnings and still do the drugs? Human nature being what it is, says most people have to make the mistake before they learn the lesson- and many don't learn even then.
1
As a former participant in the program, the acc accuracy of the article is spot-on. However probably due to the length of the story the writer couldn't give you 100% of all the benefits of this program. In order to participate in this program inmate must meet very rigorous demanding, tedious, physically challenging test. The training is approximately 8 to 10 weeks for this program. If an inmate fails to test out of this program they stay on the prison grounds and are not allowed to participate in this program. Is to see the many businesses that an entrepreneur can take advantage of once they leave the prison grounds. Not only is there opportunities to become a firefighter but the opportunity should be an ancillary Services when the fires occur and the many tent cities are built around the fire to accommodate the firefighters is a great opportunity that's lost to a lot of inmates because of the red tape involved with the state of California.
25
Utmost respect to you and the other inmate firefighters, Darcel.
Thank you, thank you for your service.
Thank you, thank you for your service.
12
How many non-convicts would do work this? I look at the photos and think, these are "normal", hard working women. As I read this article, it seems that the work they do gives them self-discipline. motivation, and strength to be productive members of society when they have served their sentences. Is there a revanchist rates for women who do such work? That issue is not addressed i the article.
8
Governments must stop denying employment to EX-felons. Thank you, firefighters. You are beautiful.
48
The author completely missed the point as to why an incarcerated inmate would risk his/her life on the fire line. In addition to beating the boredom of prison life, California offers a generous 66.6% credit for their participation, as a result an inmate would serve less than 30% of his/her sentence by serving in fire camp.
7
That actually stopped being the case for inmate firefighters several years ago after a discrimination lawsuit.
10
I'm not sure what you are referring to when you say that "it stopped being the case." Please refer to California Penal Code Section 2933 and Proposition 57. I have personally witnessed an increase in requests at sentencing for fire camp, because of the significantly reduced commitment time. It's an honrable commitment, but let's recognize it for what it is: reduced time for committing crimes. I'm sure the program would not be as popular if the only reward for participation was giving back (i.e. service) to the community that was harmed.
I was less angered by the meager pay these firefighters earn than by blanket opposition to prison labor of the director of the A.C.L.U.'s National Prison Project. Can he not see that labor offers prisoners their best--and perhaps only--chance of genuine rehabilitation?
23
Few of us have anything against prison labor. What we oppose is compelling it and underpaying. Low wages for prisoners drive down wages for everybody else.
1
Beautifully written article. Packs a punch and leaves the reader with lots to think about. The article uses Shawna Jones as the peg, but it's about the program itself. I would have liked one additional angle in the piece. With jobs in fire-fighting generally not available after these inmate crews have served their time, what happens with their lives? Is recidivism high? What percentage knock around and remain unsettled? What percentage find a trouble-free path on the outside by using the other skills learned from being on an inmate fire crew, such as discipline and teamwork? I want the rest of this story! (By the way, while Jaime Lowe is a terrific writer, she did make one small error of usage. Twice she wrote "the Pacific Coast Highway." She should not have added "the." If you want to say "the highway that runs along the Pacific coast," then "the" is fine. But Pacific Coast Highway is a proper name and "the" should not be used. Now she knows for next time, as do all NY Times writers and editors!)
14
But what about "the Hutchinson River Parkway" or "the New York State Thruway"? Maybe usage in NY is different from usage in CA?
3
In SoCal, apparently like NY, the common usage is, "the PCH, the 5, the 405, etc." The writer just replicated generally-used terms rather than "official" terms, carefully spelling out "Pacific Coast Highway" several times at the expense of her word-count. Social media are changing usage rules so quickly that manuals of style can't keep up.
That emergency shelter they carry used to be referred to as a baked potato. It was an aluminum bag that you could crawl into while the flames spread through the field you were trapped in.
13
Rick, you got it spot on. I fought fire for three seasons back in the 70s, and had one opportunity to play Idaho spud in one of those aluminum bags when a backfire my crew was lighting turned around on us. Fortunately, we had fire line and a sparsely vegetated clearing on our side of the backfire, a safe place to retreat to before doing the duck and cover thing in our 'shake and bake' sacks.
We didn't get any sour cream and chives, but lived to tell the tale.
I will vouch for the fact these women have got to be tough as nails.
We didn't get any sour cream and chives, but lived to tell the tale.
I will vouch for the fact these women have got to be tough as nails.
12
Wonderful article. These women deserve our praise and thanks.
33
California pays inmates slave wages to train for jobs that California won't hire them for when they get out of prison because they were inmates.
Madness.
Madness.
49
Yes but they're having more fun than the slaves I observed at San Quentin. They work just as hard at cleaning, repairing, preparing and cleaning up after meals, making stuff, etc. They tend to have much longer sentences than women, so when we boot them out after 25 years, they're unprepared unless loving family have kept up with them and take them in. They can be nurtured in jobs that don't have the No Felons box. Unfortunately they're in the minority.
5
Men only have "much longer sentences than women" when they have prior convictions. Sentencing is now equal. Except for the many women who take the fall for their men out of "love" (call it a type of madness) or the men who game the system and blame it on the women because they have a more sophisticated knowledge of how the system works and testify against the woman first.
Shame on California. Exploiting the vulnerable is morally evil. If the inmates do the work and take the the risks, they deserve the compensation. Charge them fair market rates for their room and board, but train them equally and hire them equally when their sentences are complete. Otherwise let the likes of Malibuers hire their own fire crews.
23
Not all heroes wear fatigues and carry guns. I'd hire any one of these gals.
24
These inmates receive no death benefit. They get medical care while in prison, but doubtful for long term care after their sentence is up. Some work programs charge the prisoners for their care, resulting in as low as $40 a year in salary.
America loves her slavery.
America loves her slavery.
32
In the 60s I worked briefly in a camp run by the Los Angeles County Probation Dept. This camp was located somewhere deep in Malibu and next door to it was a camp for teenagers mostly gang members who were required to fight brush fires. Years after I left 11-12 of these guys not this camp were killed in a backdraft. I am assuming by now this policy has been abandoned. So much for dignity if you lose your life protecting rich home owners during a fire-and Malibu is loaded with such homes.
10
Great article! I was taken by the fact that all this specific training and hard work by these women (not to mention the clear risks involved) is not a pathway to employment after they have served their time.
Mr Ramirez said..."But a program to keep them guided and keep them on that path and keep them focused on something instead of getting back into their old ways or old friends would be awesome.’’
Awesome is the very least it would be. The effort these inmates made for the State of California should result in some level of reward after the are released. We talk about prison should be a place for rehabilitation as well as punishment and clearly these women are now thoroughly trained for a highly skilled profession. Why waste their talent (and our tax dollars) and not employ them? And geez, pay them some more money while they are saving the houses that probably shouldn't have been built in those canyons in the first place. Slave labor, indeed.
Mr Ramirez said..."But a program to keep them guided and keep them on that path and keep them focused on something instead of getting back into their old ways or old friends would be awesome.’’
Awesome is the very least it would be. The effort these inmates made for the State of California should result in some level of reward after the are released. We talk about prison should be a place for rehabilitation as well as punishment and clearly these women are now thoroughly trained for a highly skilled profession. Why waste their talent (and our tax dollars) and not employ them? And geez, pay them some more money while they are saving the houses that probably shouldn't have been built in those canyons in the first place. Slave labor, indeed.
30
As a resident of fire country in California (the Alamo Fire got to within 1/2 mile of our home), I cannot tell you how much we appreciate the work these women do. I have watched fire crews on the line. They are carrying huge amounts of equipment, dragging themselves up and down steep, brushy slopes in terrain that never gives them a break. Yes they should be paid more, as should the male inmate crew members. Their contributions during fire season are of incalculable benefit to the state--let's see them compensated for their efforts. And yeah, let's get them jobs in fire crews once they finish their terms. This training should not go to waste & the opportunity to do this work will help them get into well paying jobs.
Thank you Jaime for highlighting their efforts & situations.
Thank you Jaime for highlighting their efforts & situations.
42
Fascinating that the state's first official prison was a 268 ton hulk, the Waban.
1
The massive support beams salvaged from the Waban are now decorating the administrative conference room in the Central Health Services Building at San Quentin.
4
These girls mad mistakes, grew up in hard circumstances only to be in prisoned by their choices. Such an amazing opportunity to be a part of the opportunity to change. To experience being proud of themselves and contributing to life. Enjoying nature, helping out others, some for the first time in their lives. To gain self esteem and self worth. Working in trying conditions but willing, sober for the first time. Saving the home, the dog having that self fulfillment helping others.. I agree with this program and wish more avenues were available to more prisons as these. These are humans capable of so much more than what got them arrested. Forgiving themselves for theirs errors and moving on to productive lives. We should create more programs in all of our cities. There is a benefit for both parties. I agree that these women should have the opportunity to become fire fighters as they proved themselves and were willing to do the work necessary. The pay? Probably a good lesson tied into their criminal back grounds. Just think of turning around their lives how they would become better parents, citizens and mentors.
Wonderful story , brought tears to my eyes. Thank you!
God Bless those Women and especially Jones.
Wonderful story , brought tears to my eyes. Thank you!
God Bless those Women and especially Jones.
15
The work REALLY NEEDS doing. Doing it helps the women, sometimes profoundly. And they are volunteers. While some details could be improved (rate of pay, and in some cases a pardon allowing the women to get a job as a firefighter when out of prison) this is a worthwhile program.
8
Yes, now if only it could be extended to farming, an obvious undertaking as each prison is surrounded by acres and acres of tillable land. Why not also care for abandoned animals? there's room. And trades no one does anymore like dry cleaning: San Quentin had a robust program until the 90's, and Custody living on grounds enjoyed free clothing care.
4
We need more stories like this. Thank you
15
Thanks for an illuminating article. I have long-thought that the state needs to make work opportunities like these available to correction facility inmates on a VOLUNTARY basis. And, the state needs to pay state minimum wage. In the case of inmates, let most of those wages accumulate in an interest paying fund with accumulated total payable upon release from prison. Such nest eggs could well help people get back on their feet as they transition back into society. Aside from monetary compensation, we need to provide further incentives such as one week of work on a fire crew earns a two-week reduction in remaining prison sentence. For those physically able and willing to serve the state in these ways, we need to fully recognize the value of their service.
21
If the State is paying prisoners the standard minium wage, ought not at least a portion of their earnings go to the victims of their crimes?
It is sad that these women and men who are trained to give back to society while incarcerated are not afforded the chance when they are released. Why not form fire companies comprising these men and women, lead by professional fire officers, when they are released. Would this not be a better use of the skills, training and talent that they have learned, then wasting it it.
Would it not give them a better chance of fully being rehabilitated and joining society as full members, with a career and a future? What better way to honor the ones who gave their lives then to accept their friends.
Would it not give them a better chance of fully being rehabilitated and joining society as full members, with a career and a future? What better way to honor the ones who gave their lives then to accept their friends.
28
Many applications of this approach suggest themselves in our era of global warming and mass violence: child soldiers getting rehabbed through such programs, rebuilding in war-torn areas. Young people who can't find jobs and are interested in working outdoors--a new type of conservation corps/peace corps/vista volunteer, for parolees, formerly incarcerated, et al. Minimum wage during; housed, and scholarships available after two years if desired. Also returning vets who have difficulty with re-integration.
Same with Houston recovery. I see employment opportunities everywhere. The jobs are for younger people; and they need them.
Same with Houston recovery. I see employment opportunities everywhere. The jobs are for younger people; and they need them.
8
If these people have the courage and willingness to perform such service as prisoners, then why are they not able to avoid actions as free citizens that lead to incarceration? Is it that some people function best and only can function well in a more controlled, regimented society? Is it wrong then to consider colonies where those unable to handle the temptations of free society might live, work and enjoy life? Need penal colonies be punishing rather adaptive to need and understanding of limitation?
I don't know that answer, but cannot help but wonder. It would seem that those colonies would be no place to encourage or allow pregnancies and child bearing. That easily could be arranged, while still allowing sexual partner bonding and some type of family life. One cannot help but wonder, as politically incorrect as it may seem.
I don't know that answer, but cannot help but wonder. It would seem that those colonies would be no place to encourage or allow pregnancies and child bearing. That easily could be arranged, while still allowing sexual partner bonding and some type of family life. One cannot help but wonder, as politically incorrect as it may seem.
4
Just as the military has long given some people discipline, orderliness and training they lacked in their homes, this program is doing that for these women.
3
This may be one of the better penal programs in the country, giving the inmates purpose and getting them away from a more violent environment. However it still fails the inmates and society. Governor Schwarzenegger's addition of the word "Rehabilitation" to the title of the program is meaningless if the inmates can not use any of the experience and the little training they receive after they are discharged.
I have incredible respect for these women for the difficult and dangerous work they do. We owe it to them and to all prisoners to offer them a way back to full participation in society. That will be better for them and better for us. This country is still more interested in punishment than in rehabilitation, education and training. This program is viewed as successful because it is cost effective for the state. Chain gang labor and slavery may also have been cost effective. Privatization of prisons is seen as cost effective. Ms. Jones' death should be a reminder to us of how much society would improve if we gave our prisoners real opportunity to improve themselves.
I have incredible respect for these women for the difficult and dangerous work they do. We owe it to them and to all prisoners to offer them a way back to full participation in society. That will be better for them and better for us. This country is still more interested in punishment than in rehabilitation, education and training. This program is viewed as successful because it is cost effective for the state. Chain gang labor and slavery may also have been cost effective. Privatization of prisons is seen as cost effective. Ms. Jones' death should be a reminder to us of how much society would improve if we gave our prisoners real opportunity to improve themselves.
17
Why don't they offer these jobs to non-violent offenders in lieu of prison time? Would save everyone involved money and heartache. They'd have a skill after completing the program.
11
okay-they are doing Yoga while in jail in Malibu-People are homeless in Houston. I am having trouble with the question of whether they feel taken advantage of-they committed crimes, it costs BIG money-tax payer money, to incarcerate them-excuse me, send them to yoga class-so working outside, GIVING back for a prison experience that anywhere else in the world would be considered a step up in living conditions, not jail, is a non starter for me. They have it really really good, for serving time, and it is great that they give back. Focusing on whether they should be earning more is wrong-they should be giving back-incarceration costs us all.
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So don't incarcerate people for low-level drug offenses and we don't have to spend stupid amounts of money on it. If you do the work, you should get paid for the work, end of story. If you're in prison, you've lost freedom as punishment for your crime(s); if society is going to get work out of you, then we should pay you for it. There's words for having people do labor without paying them while they are incarcerated. Those words include "slavery", "involuntary servitude", and "indenture". None of them are good.
The purpose of prison should be rehabilitation, not punishment. That means we help people get ready for life after prison; that includes paying them fairly for any work they did. How much better off would everyone be if people could leave prison with a small savings account of their earnings available to them to start over?
The purpose of prison should be rehabilitation, not punishment. That means we help people get ready for life after prison; that includes paying them fairly for any work they did. How much better off would everyone be if people could leave prison with a small savings account of their earnings available to them to start over?
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Good Job, Ladies! A woman's place is anywhere SHE wants it to be.
7
this... is a joke right? on an article about incarcerated women?
6
What about this article is a joke. U wouldn't say that if your house was about to burn down, and these women were doing structure protection around it
Great writing! Great pictures! I love these women!
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This is a really interesting article. It also sounds like a GREAT program here in California.
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What a moving story full of incredible statistics. Even volunteer firefighters get many benefits. This is indentured servitude. For all that they are incarcerated and surely no one will jump to fight for convicts, perhaps the state should work on forgiving their sentence or changing the law so that they can be hired as firefighters when they already have bravery and fortitude along with some training and experience.
Since prisoners are the property of the state, perhaps the state should also care for the family they leave behind as a life insurance of sorts. Do these prisoners' famililes get any benefits from the state if they are disabled or die fighting fires as the brave Shayna Jones did?
Since prisoners are the property of the state, perhaps the state should also care for the family they leave behind as a life insurance of sorts. Do these prisoners' famililes get any benefits from the state if they are disabled or die fighting fires as the brave Shayna Jones did?
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It is a national shame that we exploit such courageous women (and men).
The Thirteenth Amendment did not abolish slavery. It specifically allows slavery as punishment for a crime, any crime. What a disgraceful loophole!
Sessions is moving swiftly to pack private prisons with non-violent offenders. He desperately wants to be the uber-massa of our time.
The Thirteenth Amendment did not abolish slavery. It specifically allows slavery as punishment for a crime, any crime. What a disgraceful loophole!
Sessions is moving swiftly to pack private prisons with non-violent offenders. He desperately wants to be the uber-massa of our time.
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The program can be seen as exploitation, or it can be seen as opportunity. The requirement to volunteer, pass training, and be of physical capacity makes it opportunity, partly. The full pass as a program of OPPORTUNITY rather than exploitation is if they are helped to become firefighters once prison sentence is done.
In addition, double the pay to $2 per hour. They are inmates, after all. Finally, they should have benefits, even as inmates: life insurance payout to families at the same rate as civilian firefighters would get; long-term disability insurance as well.
Still a cost savings to CA, but much more benefit for the risk to inmates, while treating them as inmates. This would be a win win.
However, Old Yeller, your last paragraph on private prisons is right on. This model could be much more terribly exploited, and the U.S. should absolutely oppose this type of exploitation as cruel and unusual punishment.
In addition, double the pay to $2 per hour. They are inmates, after all. Finally, they should have benefits, even as inmates: life insurance payout to families at the same rate as civilian firefighters would get; long-term disability insurance as well.
Still a cost savings to CA, but much more benefit for the risk to inmates, while treating them as inmates. This would be a win win.
However, Old Yeller, your last paragraph on private prisons is right on. This model could be much more terribly exploited, and the U.S. should absolutely oppose this type of exploitation as cruel and unusual punishment.
8
A CDC Liutenant whose job it is to visit prisoners sent to Arizona and Mississippi told me those prisons are packed, with no programs for rehabilitation. Drugs and phones are ubiquitous, and "the prisoners run the place". You can invest your stock market portfolio in caging people if you have the money and heartlessness.
6
Great story. Seems like a win-win to hire these men and women after they have served their sentences since they are already trained and because a decent
paying job is one of best ways to help them stay out of prison.
paying job is one of best ways to help them stay out of prison.
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It would be great if they could take the jobs they've been trained for in prison. As the article mentions though, LA County (where they are trained and work while incarcerated) won't allow felons to apply to fire departments there. I suspect this is the case in many other counties/cities/states. It would be helpful if the program could develop a pipeline to departments that would hire them, or to work to change the law in LA County. It must be terribly dispiriting to come out of prison trained and ready to work only to be turned away.
14
Moving, well-written article! It's unethical that California relies so heavily on this labor pool while providing so little compensation and few genuine job prospects. Cali... you'll need these women more and more as climate change continues to wreak havoc and cause more fires. Pay the women fairly and provide an employment pipeline. They're children will certainly benefit too.
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Part sad, mostly remarkable, these woman inmates risk their lives to help others that are free. I admire and salute each and every one of them
61
Beautifully written piece about a strong courageous woman and the crew and the program she gave her life to as her social give-back and embodiment of real integrity that she could grasp and share. The firefighter program offers little in pay and lots in dignity for the person who answers that call.
Circumstances and cultural and personal streets divided Miss Jones from both her freedom and her bane of rutted 'smallness' of a wild spirit living confined in a struggling California blue-collar town ... in a way miles from nowhere yet with a clutch of family and friends. What stirs my heart is her individual sense of doing right for herself that leads to contributing to all of us by putting out fires. And doing it as her own rite of passage.
Bless the people she worked alongside, and the program and its directors and the comrades that honor her. She continues to work for us still by bringing to light the issues of pay for such consideration where people can be viewed not just as convicts but as cohorts in our larger landscape where misdeeds and mistakes can possibly be regarded as learning ropes thrown to help someone climb up beyond their past into their higher potential. And she does this by being on of those crew giving it all for something larger than herself.
My hat off to her and my gratitude for her personal story.
Circumstances and cultural and personal streets divided Miss Jones from both her freedom and her bane of rutted 'smallness' of a wild spirit living confined in a struggling California blue-collar town ... in a way miles from nowhere yet with a clutch of family and friends. What stirs my heart is her individual sense of doing right for herself that leads to contributing to all of us by putting out fires. And doing it as her own rite of passage.
Bless the people she worked alongside, and the program and its directors and the comrades that honor her. She continues to work for us still by bringing to light the issues of pay for such consideration where people can be viewed not just as convicts but as cohorts in our larger landscape where misdeeds and mistakes can possibly be regarded as learning ropes thrown to help someone climb up beyond their past into their higher potential. And she does this by being on of those crew giving it all for something larger than herself.
My hat off to her and my gratitude for her personal story.
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