And what of the history of the artists, architects and artisans who made these statues and memorials? What happens to their history and what happens to their art?
3
This is the Left's version of book burning. Oh the irony of it all. Self righteous and obnoxious.
3
When politicians and all-knowing, so-called politically correct, leftist radicals can decide on what is, or is not, worth preserving as historical monuments, the end of civilization is near.
2
Any attempt to "cleanse" public historical memory of that which is politically disapproved of is inherently a totalitarian impulse. People who can't, or won't, understand this need to read (or reread) Orwell. Those of us who do need to speak up. Especially anyone who has ever claimed to be a liberal of any stripe.
2
You do realize that ANY statue of a human form is antithetical to Muslim sensibilities? And since "Muslim" is on the list of approved marginalised identities, clearly all statues need to come down immediately. No need for a commission...
2
Let him (or her) who is without sin cast the first stone.
3
The statue of J Marion Sims in east Harlem must go! He was a slaver who experimented on black women slaves without anesthesia because he said they didn't feel pain! He's gone down in history as "the father of gynecology" but should be remembered as a psychotic monster
Since men have since the dawn of time oppressed, violated and exploited women economically, violently, and socially . . . how about all statues honoring anyone of the male persuasion be taken down.
I grew up in New York City - I moved away when it became clear I was priced out. Columbus Circle has been an affectionately held landmark for my entire life.
If de Blasio takes that statue down and renames the intersection, I will end my annual visits back to my natal city - because it will no longer be that city.
This saccharine pandering to trendy virtue-signalling has gone far enough.
I grew up in New York City - I moved away when it became clear I was priced out. Columbus Circle has been an affectionately held landmark for my entire life.
If de Blasio takes that statue down and renames the intersection, I will end my annual visits back to my natal city - because it will no longer be that city.
This saccharine pandering to trendy virtue-signalling has gone far enough.
2
We can't sanitize our nation's ugly birth, but we can and should educate our future. Install plaques explaining context square on top of these monuments - so that we maintain the history that we would like to believe we are on the right side of. If we erase our ills and evils, we doom ourselves to repeat them.
1
Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it.
Why are we so anxious to purge our nation's history?
Good or bad, these monuments serve as reminders of where we've come from.
In my humble opinion, the removals of monuments is getting really out of hand.
Why are we so anxious to purge our nation's history?
Good or bad, these monuments serve as reminders of where we've come from.
In my humble opinion, the removals of monuments is getting really out of hand.
1
Here is an idea to remove symbols of hate. Start from the Trump Tower !
This modern witch hunt is really a testament our society's inability to not only teach about our history but to even talk about our past in language that is just matter of fact. What ever and whoever decides what to save and what to come down will just be an expedient exercise. There will always be a group, descendants of victims or others who could be offended or energized by just about any monument. There existence is history. Even those put up to glorify a way of life at the expense of the lives and backs and family destruction and violence it was made possible is a very ugly testament to who were strutting power during the Jim Crow era. When I stood at the beach where Columbus landed in this hemisphere, As an Italian-American I had one thought, and it was not pleasant. I forever named him 'The Butcher' in reverence to those Taino who were annihilated by disease and the sword. Do I want his statue down? Lets talk about it.
Didn't in Afghanistan when the Taliban took over, they removed (destroyed) Statutes also?
1
What a dope he is. A city with 8 million people and he's our best option? Depressing.
10
I assume anything sounding German will be tossed out because of his father.
5
Removing statues is what Taliban and Bolsheviks do. The right approach to these expressions by people in their own time and place is to contextualize them from the perspective of ours.
12
Warren Wilhelm Jr. can try to rewrite history all he wants - it's a losing proposition.
Melissa Mark-Viverto won't participate in the Columbus Day parade and only denigrates Christopher Columbus while marching in the Puerto Rican day parade side by side with convicted FALN terrorist Oscar Lopez Rivera - was a repulsive hypocrite she is. She should have NO voice in this matter.
http://nypost.com/2017/06/11/puerto-rican-terrorist-rides-on-parade-floa...
Melissa Mark-Viverto won't participate in the Columbus Day parade and only denigrates Christopher Columbus while marching in the Puerto Rican day parade side by side with convicted FALN terrorist Oscar Lopez Rivera - was a repulsive hypocrite she is. She should have NO voice in this matter.
http://nypost.com/2017/06/11/puerto-rican-terrorist-rides-on-parade-floa...
7
America would have been better off never discovered in the first place. It is just a can of worms.
Okay so we remove the Petain plaque. How about the plaque for Eamon De Valera who participated in the violent campaign for Irish independence and who during World War II kept Ireland neutral in the war against Hitler. I'm sure removal of his plaque would go over about as well with the Irish as the removal of the Columbus statue would with Italians. And how about all the plaques for the petty dictators who used to get parades whenever they came to NYC. They were given parades long after their abuses of power were well known. Of course, they were anti-communist so I guess they make it all right (although in at least one case, President Diem of South Vietnam, we ended up overthrowing him despite this).
5
Ah, here we go. Whitewashing (with apologies for the use of the color-laden term) history instead of learning from it.
This is going to go great for New York City. And for the Democrats.
(I predict a drubbing in 2018, and let's not even bring up 2020).
This is going to go great for New York City. And for the Democrats.
(I predict a drubbing in 2018, and let's not even bring up 2020).
6
Removing the monuments to historical malefactors robs us of knowledge of the past, thus breeding ignorance. Holocaust deniers would love to dismantle concentration camps!
9
Who defines the list of offenses requiring removal? MLK was an adulterer and alleged plagerist; are those removable offenses? The mayor needs to find some new windmills.
7
let's burn books too!
9
Since 1898 the City of New York has a had a formal agency to review statuary or any work of art, architecture or landscape architecture to be installed on City property. This agency was called The Art Commission of the City of New York and has since been renamed the Design Commission. One of the many reasons for the founding of this Commission was to protect the appearance and ensure quality design in our public spaces. The Mayor has a representative on this eleven member commission which is important because it limits his or her power to shape the city to his or her liking. If de Blasio opens this Pandora's Box where will it end? Banning all statuary depicting naked breasts or statuary featuring somewhat covered breasts or shirtless men because it may trigger a gender identity issue? Or statues of people riding horses because some deem it's cruel to ride horses. For goodness sakes, the list is endless. New York City has a spectacular collection of historic and contemporary public art and our unabashedly aspirational mayor should step back and think about this.
5
Similar to the carriage horses controversy in NYC ... promise an interest group a study or some indefinite action and thereby build a voting block for your campaign.
1
Lets be sure to include the following in the Stalinesque airbrushing of history:
1. FDR Drive - internment of Japanese in WW2
2. Woodrow Wilson - HS in Queens and Triangle in Bronx - segregatation of US Govt workers and showing Birth of a Nation in WH in 1915
3. Elihu Yale - rename Yale - fortune made in slave trade in India.
4. Leland Stanford - rename Stanford - for Chinese slave labor on his railroads out west.
5. Sen. Robert Byrd, D-WVA - KKK member
1. FDR Drive - internment of Japanese in WW2
2. Woodrow Wilson - HS in Queens and Triangle in Bronx - segregatation of US Govt workers and showing Birth of a Nation in WH in 1915
3. Elihu Yale - rename Yale - fortune made in slave trade in India.
4. Leland Stanford - rename Stanford - for Chinese slave labor on his railroads out west.
5. Sen. Robert Byrd, D-WVA - KKK member
4
Author of A Dog’s History of America Mark Derr writes of Columbus using dogs to hunt Natives. "Natives were even pitted against these dogs in barbaric, gladiator-style death matches. A native would be armed with nothing but a stick and stripped naked, and colonists would entertain themselves by watching the dogs maul the natives" Mark Derr. Why not replace the Statue of Columbus with FDR who had more of a positive impact on NYC and the Country? Even New York Yankees Joe Dimaggio would be better!
1
FDR already has a highway named after him - the FDR Drive, remember?
2
FDR? Think Japanese internment camps.
1
DiMaggio reportedly knocked Marilyn Monroe around when they were married. Should we erect a statute to wife beater?
2
Let's discuss Eduard Pernkopf, the Austrian doctor who produced anatomy textbooks whose artistic and scientific value is unquestioned. A Nazi sympathizer, he was honored during and after World War II, his textbooks used by medical students world wide, until questions started surfacing as to the source of the corpses used in those dissections. Particularly the pregnant women. Want to think about some nightmarish conversations? Imagine the talks with a pregnant Nazi prisoner as to who pregnant she might be, exactly, in preparation for those pictures of dissected women at various stages of pregnancy. When finally enough medical students refused to use the textbooks, they were republished with a nice tribute to the victims. That's the way to go: just apologize, and pledge not to let it happen again.
I want the obelisk removed from Central Park because it's a symbol of Egypt and they held my people as slaves many years ago!
10
That has already been shown to be an Anti-Egyptian fabrication.
Just make a new statue of Columbus committing genocide of indiginous people and then we can keep it up for the sake of "history".
2
In the rush to pander to the crowd Mayor de Blasio is now going to be caught with his pants down! Also Melissa Mark-Viverito celebrates convicted FALN terrorists and should have NO voice in this process.
7
What New Yorkers want to see in their public spaces is up to them, but cherry-picking one or two negative aspects from someone's career in order to disqualify their plaque or monument, as in the case of President Grant or Philippe Petain, seems to be a small-minded way to go about it. If that's the process, when will they start calling to remove the statues of Franklin Roosevelt? One would hope that the big historical picture will prevail. After all, who doesn't have a bad decision, or unfortunate moment that they would rather leave stuffed into the back of the closet?
4
Also anything named after Peter Stuyvesant should be removed. He was the biggest slave driver in the Caribbean before being the Mayor of New Amsterdam.
6
Why can't he ask Viverito to do it her way(Im counting the days till shes gone) and I wont vote for him based on his lack of concern for safety in the downtown area re:construction. An absolute disgrace.
1
I do think one has to be careful to put history in context, but Columbus was seen as a genocidal, cruel, child sex trafficker even by contemporaries. Can Columbus Circle become Mandela Circle?
1
And who gets to vote on that? Why not the Triangle Shirtwaist Worker Circle? The Raoul Wallenberg Circle? The Jonas Salk Circle?
1
Nelson Mandela was a terrorist, whose organization was responsible for thousands of murders.
2
Walked through Times Square yesterday and was shocked to see topless (almost bottomless) women soliciting tourists for pictures and tips. The first "monument" he should remove from the most popular tourist spot in the city, is strippers who I'm sure have scared away tons of families with children visiting the city.
4
Abraham Lincoln issued the order that set the Navajo on the “Long Walk,” the forced removal in 1864 of the Navajo from their Arizona homeland to the Bosque Redondo. Lincoln opposed slavery, but otherwise his views aligned nicely with those expressed by today’s white nationalist. As quoted by the New York Times, Lincoln said: “I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man.” Does New York have statues of Lincoln that should be removed? Should we tear down the Lincoln Memoria in Washington?
http://www.nytimes.com/1860/12/28/news/mr-lincoln-and-negro-equality.htm...
http://www.nytimes.com/1860/12/28/news/mr-lincoln-and-negro-equality.htm...
5
De blasio himself is a symbol of hate - he needs to GO! This guy is a raging, out of control, liberal who wants nothing more than to turn New York City into a welfare state. He had better not cater to these idiots who know nothing of history - the statues stay - DeBlasio GOES.
I cannot see how anyone could vote for this guy.
I cannot see how anyone could vote for this guy.
9
Here's a thought: we could never have won World War II without Stalin's help, and there are no statues of him in the U.S., to my knowledge, after one was removed a few years ago at a WWII memorial in Virginia. He started the war as Hitler's ally, and he all but single-handedly defeated him. Russia lost a HUNDRED times more lives in WWII than the U.S. We have statues of Churchill everywhere, and we saved his bacon, as much as I admire the British. I think the rush to purge our statuary of peccadilloes. That said, Lee and Forrest were traitors to the United States and these statues were largely set up as part of Jim Crow and Massive Resistance. They're part of hate, they're not really heritage. Even so, I'd leave as many in place as is practicable, and New York doesn't really have to worry about it. If a Southerner comes to Brooklyn's Prospect Park, the message is clear. The arch in Grand Army Plaza faces due south, as if to say, "Now remember: Don't even THINK of trying it again." Besides, what's the point of taking out a few statues when we have the president we now have sitting in the White House?
8
This politically correct take-down-the-monuments movement driven by the limousine liberals is getting out of control. It seems like no historical figure of import with a statue or plaque can escape scrutiny through today's tunnel visioned lenses. Once we remove Columbus' statue, do we rename Columbus Circle? Did the organizers of the Canyon of Heroes know that Marshall Petain would help the Nazis when they gave him a parade? Do all things with Andrew Jackson get renamed, because if I recall correctly, he forced the trail of tears. Or what about the FDR Drive? Roosevelt wasn't exactly warm and fuzzy when it came to race or accepting Jews.
We should honor history for what it is, and if a monument offends people, perhaps, instead of removing the statute, we replace the plaque describing the statue. Then we'll all be able to appreciate a figure, warts and all. But if we rename New York City to something more politically acceptable to the sensitive, I'm out.
We should honor history for what it is, and if a monument offends people, perhaps, instead of removing the statute, we replace the plaque describing the statue. Then we'll all be able to appreciate a figure, warts and all. But if we rename New York City to something more politically acceptable to the sensitive, I'm out.
11
Tearing down these statues will not help anyone. Instead of erasing our past we should learn from it, and acknowledge the rights and the wrongs of the people, who shaped our country.
13
Like any genuinely stupid process, this one very quickly comes full circle. It is possible to find fault with any human being if one looks hard enough, and certainly easy to find fault with any historical character who rose above the masses to provide leadership under complex circumstances. This movement over "the questionable past of historical figures" is a testimonial to the American public's low level of educational development and susceptibility to mob psychology.
9
Let's see. There is trash everywhere. Drunks passed out on every corner. Budgets under pressure. Trains that don't function. Endless traffic congestion. Etc. etc. etc.
What should deBlasio focus on? Hmmmm... I know! Old statues.
This incompetent gadfly must always get involved in with he latest national controversy.
What should deBlasio focus on? Hmmmm... I know! Old statues.
This incompetent gadfly must always get involved in with he latest national controversy.
25
A statue to incompetence is in order.
I disapprove of ALL statues of recognizable specific persons. To me, they seem to be more that a tribute to some particular action that the person did. They seem to also affirm a view that some people have more intrinsic worth that others. Therefore, it would not disturb me to see all statues to particular persons removed, from the the Lincoln Memorial on down to the local town park.
However, I strongly object to the selective removal of only some statues. That is nothing less than the imposition of political correctness turned punitive.
However, I strongly object to the selective removal of only some statues. That is nothing less than the imposition of political correctness turned punitive.
What does "liberal" America have in common with ISIS?
Whether Palmyra or Robert E. Lee, both want to forget a past they no longer agree with by destroying evidence of it.
Whether Palmyra or Robert E. Lee, both want to forget a past they no longer agree with by destroying evidence of it.
9
I like the idea of covering them with a big black tarp, a la Lee in Charlottesville. The black tarp is a wonderful metaphor and symbol of America's hysterical approach to approach to dealing with anything controversial, challenging or too complex to solve with a bumper sticker.
We need tarps big enough to cover our insane health care system, K Street, Wall Street, immigration policy, Congress and Afghanistan.
We need tarps big enough to cover our insane health care system, K Street, Wall Street, immigration policy, Congress and Afghanistan.
This is a mayor with too much time on his hands. Things must be going quite well in NYC!
7
A "Review of Statues"????? What's to review?? I would guess that none of those statues are NEW! Why were they not "reviewed" at the time they were put up????
3
Yes, we should review monuments. No, a politically motivated executive politician should NOT be the one making those decisions. Neither should a fake, powerless commission made up of famous singers, artists and pop-historians who have no legal authority to change or remove public artworks. This should be something planned and discussed and budgeted by relevant city agencies and then brought to the community for discussion. This SHOULD be a long and difficult process.
2
The Great Monument Purge is not about removing offensive statues of dead people. It's about rummaging through history for ways to offend living people whose opinions we don't like, or simply people we don't like. For cultural bullies, any excuse will do.
9
Tale of Two Cities, right! Chauffeured to Brooklyn workouts, arbiter of historic symbolism, a very large leaf with a finger, as well, in the political winds. I hope all the guilt ridden and downtrodden are thrilled with their selection of Big Bill? The problem with progressive guilt is that it's an unfathomable chasm of immeasurable pain in which all are made to partake; like it or not! Whatever happened to the horse and buggy hype? Really should bring that up more often!
5
In India, there is a growing movement to tear down the Taj Mahal and many other historic monuments.
They were built by Muslim invaders and their descendants who brutalized and slaughtered (to the point of genocide) the indigenous Hindu populations.
Moral: It doesn't take very long for a slippery slope to become a 1000 foot sheer cliff.
They were built by Muslim invaders and their descendants who brutalized and slaughtered (to the point of genocide) the indigenous Hindu populations.
Moral: It doesn't take very long for a slippery slope to become a 1000 foot sheer cliff.
12
What next? Renaming cities,counties,towns,streets,etc.
Stop this inane movement. It's your attitudes and self
behavior that has to change.
Stop this inane movement. It's your attitudes and self
behavior that has to change.
10
Mayor Bill de Blasio yet again shows his political ineptitude. As for Melissa Mark-Viverito, it's easy to play liberal policymaker when you inherit $6.7 million from your parent and own a million dollar property in the city which you rent out.
11
Looking forward to DeBlasio eliminating all memorials to that scoundrel, President Roosevelt, who interned Japanese Americans during WW II.
FDR Drive
Roosevelt Island
FDR Four Freedoms Park
FDR Boardwalk and Beach
FDR Highschool
And what of that warmonger, Harry Truman, who dropped the A bomb on Japan (twice).
Harry S. Truman High School
Get cracking, Mr. Mayor, and eliminate all these symbols of hatred from NYC.
FDR Drive
Roosevelt Island
FDR Four Freedoms Park
FDR Boardwalk and Beach
FDR Highschool
And what of that warmonger, Harry Truman, who dropped the A bomb on Japan (twice).
Harry S. Truman High School
Get cracking, Mr. Mayor, and eliminate all these symbols of hatred from NYC.
11
The Left and the Right both have their extremist element. Feeling emboldened by Charlottesville, the extremist Left is going forward with their purge of anything in American history that they take offence too. They will, or already have, turn off not only the Right, but the vast middle of the electorate.
16
Except in america right extreme element likes to kill people and celebrate afterwards. And the center is not blind to that truth. And I don't know / understand how the non-extreme right chooses to remain blind to those things.
Oh for heaven's sake. There is a big difference between an old statue of an explorer that lives in the cloudy mists of time and new ones of treasonous leaders, built in the 20th century, erected as a thumb in the eye of the civil rights movement. There are lots of statue to objectionable people, but I can't think of any that were put up to express murderous hatred.
If we start to pull down monuments that reflect ignorance or an out-of-date understanding of history, we are going to be pulling down a lot of things. Meanwhile, there is talk of a big wall supposed to be going up somewhere south of here. I would suggest we channel our energy into a fight to prevent a hateful and murderous monument that is in the planning stages.
If we start to pull down monuments that reflect ignorance or an out-of-date understanding of history, we are going to be pulling down a lot of things. Meanwhile, there is talk of a big wall supposed to be going up somewhere south of here. I would suggest we channel our energy into a fight to prevent a hateful and murderous monument that is in the planning stages.
7
I challenge your characterization of Confederate soldiers as "treasonous". I think the only treasonous actors were the politicians who collectively led their states to secede from the Union. The Confederate soldiers did not choose to war. It was Lincoln who chose to war since the South wanted only to secede, not dominate the North. Lincoln could have let the South secede but chose instead to fight a war to dominate the South and force it to remain in the Union. The Confederate soldiers were merely acting as loyal citizens of the nation in which they lived. At best, you might claim that those soldiers had 2 masters, the Union and the Confederacy, and that they were forced to choose which master's orders to obey since the orders were inconsistent with each other. Making that choice is hardly an act of treason.
The only treasonous actors were the politicians who collectively led their states to secede from the Union.
The only treasonous actors were the politicians who collectively led their states to secede from the Union.
2
Build more statues to reflect modern history! Where are the monuments to the first black US president? Maya Angelou, Angela Davis???
Stop this non-sense - respect the people of the US. We are smart enough to understand that no one is a pure hero. Educate the students in school - how many know about Jim Crow (I saw one page in a history text book)? How many know about the horrors of the Soviet Union and North Korea?? Remember St. Petersburg that was renamed to Petrograd and then Leningrad? It is back St. Peter! And that Peter was no saint. Still, most Russians would agree that he was a great leader, as well as comment on the numerous lives lost in buliding his namesake city.
I do not see a monument as a tribute - I see it as a milestone. This country would not be a world's greatest power and symbol of democracy without Spanish crown subsidising Columbus. I do not believe that he himself ordered a slaughter of the native population. It started with the church, according to the history books.
Lastly, the only library in the NYC that carried the books about Jim Crow and transcripts of the memories of people growing up then, was in Harlem(!). That was eight years ago, but I am not sure much changed.
Stop this non-sense - respect the people of the US. We are smart enough to understand that no one is a pure hero. Educate the students in school - how many know about Jim Crow (I saw one page in a history text book)? How many know about the horrors of the Soviet Union and North Korea?? Remember St. Petersburg that was renamed to Petrograd and then Leningrad? It is back St. Peter! And that Peter was no saint. Still, most Russians would agree that he was a great leader, as well as comment on the numerous lives lost in buliding his namesake city.
I do not see a monument as a tribute - I see it as a milestone. This country would not be a world's greatest power and symbol of democracy without Spanish crown subsidising Columbus. I do not believe that he himself ordered a slaughter of the native population. It started with the church, according to the history books.
Lastly, the only library in the NYC that carried the books about Jim Crow and transcripts of the memories of people growing up then, was in Harlem(!). That was eight years ago, but I am not sure much changed.
5
Jewish woman here. With regard to Grant, whether I like it or not, he was the President of the United States - and he was FAR from the only anti-Semite in the 19th Century United States. If I tried to weed out commemorations of everybody in history who disliked my ethnic group, there wouldn't be many monuments left. And as for Petain, I think it's crucially important to KEEP the plaque on the ground as a history lesson: Those people who we hail as heroes at one point in time can easily change to villains. I mean, look at Aung San Suu Kyi if you want a more contemporary example...
Plus, I quite like the idea of being able to literally step on Petain as I walk to work. I'm a proud Jewish woman, my ancestors survived, I am alive despite his best attempts. Leave the plaque there. The parade for him happened. History happened. We applauded him in the 1930s, and we know better now. Removing the plaque doesn't change the past, but leaving it can help us learn for the future.
With Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, there's a simple litmus test. They seceded from the Union, they lost the war, they don't deserve statues in the North and we know that many of those statues were only erected to intimidate Black people during the Jim Crow era. There's no good reason to keep references to them in New York City. But few things are so cut-and-dried.
Let's take a deep breath and not turn this into a more-offended-than-thou competition.
Plus, I quite like the idea of being able to literally step on Petain as I walk to work. I'm a proud Jewish woman, my ancestors survived, I am alive despite his best attempts. Leave the plaque there. The parade for him happened. History happened. We applauded him in the 1930s, and we know better now. Removing the plaque doesn't change the past, but leaving it can help us learn for the future.
With Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, there's a simple litmus test. They seceded from the Union, they lost the war, they don't deserve statues in the North and we know that many of those statues were only erected to intimidate Black people during the Jim Crow era. There's no good reason to keep references to them in New York City. But few things are so cut-and-dried.
Let's take a deep breath and not turn this into a more-offended-than-thou competition.
15
I am sure that Jews are no Angels so it important to keep some statues that reflect that there is more than one opinion and two sides to every question.
... And for pity's sake leave the plaque to Petain. Why erase all ironies and the ambiguities from the material fabric of the city? Only by making future generations aware of those ironies and ambiguities can they hope to gain perspective on the values they hold and regard as inviolate and eternal. A perspective that this generation of self-appointed "activists" seem to lack entirely.
4
Now the political left wing formally adopts political correctness limitation on freedom of speech. Will the left next officially declare its opposition to the Bill of Rights whenever it would protect persons who are not left wing?
I think self-styled "progressives" are as much a threat to our freedoms as are the far right. The primary difference seems to be that the far right claims its motive is to protect our "security" while the far left claims their motive is to promote harmony. Either way they both claim destroying our liberty is for the common good. But the result is the same regardless of their claimed motivations.....elimination of our individual freedoms.
I think self-styled "progressives" are as much a threat to our freedoms as are the far right. The primary difference seems to be that the far right claims its motive is to protect our "security" while the far left claims their motive is to promote harmony. Either way they both claim destroying our liberty is for the common good. But the result is the same regardless of their claimed motivations.....elimination of our individual freedoms.
5
Like the Council speaker I too have never marched in the Columbus Day parade. I love Italy and Italians, but see no need in memorializing a sailor who arrived 500 years after my ancestors.
1
Later we would regret the decision to remove these statues that represent more than the person that they portray; these monuments time-stamp America's ever fluctuating popular mode of thought. Although they may not represent modern American beliefs, it is important to remember the past. Both the good, and the bad.
I believe the best solution is to provide some historical context to the statues and monuments that are seen as controversial. It would allow future generations (and current) to not only understand the significance of the person being memorialized, but also to give context to why the monument was originally commissioned.
I believe the best solution is to provide some historical context to the statues and monuments that are seen as controversial. It would allow future generations (and current) to not only understand the significance of the person being memorialized, but also to give context to why the monument was originally commissioned.
3
Vote Deblasio out for ethical obtuseness. Then expunge any record of him from history books or mention of his name by the press. He would appreciate that.
10
If you judge all historical figures by today's politically correct standards, the only statues left will be those of St Francis of Assisi and Kermit the Frog.
In the days of Robert E Lee, many viewed themselves as citizens of sovereign states bound together in a union. Similar to a Belgian whose country is part of the EU. The Civil War itself was a chapter in defining the nation as the paramount sovereign.
In the days of Robert E Lee, many viewed themselves as citizens of sovereign states bound together in a union. Similar to a Belgian whose country is part of the EU. The Civil War itself was a chapter in defining the nation as the paramount sovereign.
17
What separates monuments dedicated to leaders of the Confederacy from others is the historical context in which these leaders lived. General Lee led an army of rebels to preserve the South's "peculiar institution". The rest of the country and indeed most of the world had reached the conclusion that slavery was immoral and needed to be eliminated. The confederacy stubbornly and violently resisted this moral progress.
In contrast, Washington, Jefferson and even Columbus were in step with the morality and practice of their times. As repugnant as Jefferson's slave ownership is now, it was not out of the ordinary in his lifetime. The confederate monuments should be removed in essence because they glorify men who continued to support slavery when more enlightened perspectives were common.
Outside Moscow there is The Park of Fallen Heroes. Many of the statues are Soviet era works that were pulled down when the USSR fell. Gathered together in one place the totality of these works does not glorify the repression of the Soviet period, rather it provides an environment of somber contemplation of the lessons of that history.
Perhaps at Gettysburg or some other appropriate location, all these confederate monuments should be gathered together in a place where people can reflect on the horrors of war, the sins of the past and how to build a more humane future.
In contrast, Washington, Jefferson and even Columbus were in step with the morality and practice of their times. As repugnant as Jefferson's slave ownership is now, it was not out of the ordinary in his lifetime. The confederate monuments should be removed in essence because they glorify men who continued to support slavery when more enlightened perspectives were common.
Outside Moscow there is The Park of Fallen Heroes. Many of the statues are Soviet era works that were pulled down when the USSR fell. Gathered together in one place the totality of these works does not glorify the repression of the Soviet period, rather it provides an environment of somber contemplation of the lessons of that history.
Perhaps at Gettysburg or some other appropriate location, all these confederate monuments should be gathered together in a place where people can reflect on the horrors of war, the sins of the past and how to build a more humane future.
7
Maybe you should check your history. Lee was actually against slavery and fought for the Confederacy out of loyalty to his home state. Why don't we just delete the majority of our founding fathers from our history. Liberals amaze me daily.
3
It would be useful in this situation to carefully define what category of persons memorialized by these statues are to be removed. Most reasonable people would agree that no government should commemorate traitors and oath breakers, such as the Civil War generals who rose in rebellion. To celebrate these men is to legitimize rebellion and oath breaking. If we're going to extend the ban to anyone who owned slaves or committed other acts that might offend someone when it was legitimate practice we would open the door to abolishing all statues everywhere. I am definitely offended by the picture of Andrew Jackson on the 20 dollar bill, but if I want to get money from my ATM, I have no other choice. It's not right, but I'm not going to insist they abolish the 20. There are many people, including our present occupant of the White House who think AJ was a fine person.
1
Our war of independence from Britain included a heck of a lot of "oath breaking" but I'm assuming that it was acceptable in that case?
1
No human can stand outside of the time and place where they exist, but what makes a hero is when the opportunity and the ability coming together in a special moment. At this point a hero takes some essential aspect of the world and transform it. The Great Man of History theory seems intent on presenting these people as somehow wholly good and admirable, rather than as in many senses ordinary people. We do not marvel when a icon of evil is said to have loved his mother, fought for his country or cared for his children. Why should we marvel when we find that in a time of bigotry or persecution the hero only created a transcendent work of art, a breakthrough in medicine or science, but not stand up to the many deplorable facts of his time.
Perhaps, in the failure to acknowledge the ordinariness of our heroes, we protect ourselves from having to make heroic decision ourselves. I am a poor sinner, why should you or I expect that I should have the courage to confront evil. If only the truly pure of heart can be a hero, then we will never have heroes.
Perhaps, in the failure to acknowledge the ordinariness of our heroes, we protect ourselves from having to make heroic decision ourselves. I am a poor sinner, why should you or I expect that I should have the courage to confront evil. If only the truly pure of heart can be a hero, then we will never have heroes.
7
While I admire the mayor's staunchly liberal values, he's often shown himself to be not up to the challenge when pursuing bold cultural improvements in the city. Remember his embarrassing stumbling during the "desnudas" Times Square controversy. I would suggest the mayor leave this debate to historians and activists.
6
staunchly liberal values <-> not up to the challenge when pursuing bold cultural improvements....they go hand in hand...
1
The design of the dime should be changed to remove the portrait of Franklin Delano Roosevelt who ordered the internment of Japanese Americans during World War II.
21
Lest we forget, Jesus engaged in some pretty disorderly conduct in a Jerusalem temple once...just saying.
13
Leave the statue and put up a plaque. Ms Mark Viverito should also think about her own status and give back the real estate that she owns and the money she inherited from her father who sold his hospital because they are all on land stolen from Native Americans.
25
another symbolic and meaningless gesture from comrade deBlasio.
Does he, or anyone else for that matter, really think that removing these monuments will prevent hate? If anything, they will generate even more anger and resentment among those for whom the monument is a symbol.
The villiage idiot can figure that out. Why can't deBlasio. People who say "banish all hate" are incredible naive.
We are destroying history at the insistence of a small, loud group of people, and our politicians, and the media as well, haven't the backbone to object.
History is just that. We can learn from our mistakes, and we as humans make lots of them. Denying history, we will certainly repeat it. It's happening even now, as everyone finds reasons to denigrate and blame white European men for everything.
Does he, or anyone else for that matter, really think that removing these monuments will prevent hate? If anything, they will generate even more anger and resentment among those for whom the monument is a symbol.
The villiage idiot can figure that out. Why can't deBlasio. People who say "banish all hate" are incredible naive.
We are destroying history at the insistence of a small, loud group of people, and our politicians, and the media as well, haven't the backbone to object.
History is just that. We can learn from our mistakes, and we as humans make lots of them. Denying history, we will certainly repeat it. It's happening even now, as everyone finds reasons to denigrate and blame white European men for everything.
52
Ridiculous. Why is it necessary to apologize for the entirety of the history of western civilization? The mayor needs to drop the vowels from the end of his name. Mayor DeBlas.
20
His last name is actually Wilhelm.
George Orwell must be rolling over in his grave as the left continues it's mad quest to sanitize the past. They should really study the French Reign of Terror, a previous quest for ideology purity that eventually turned on itself and it's creators.
40
DeBlasio was already the worst mayor since Dinkens but seems determined to become the worst in the history of the city.
26
In general, I have a hard time supporting attacks on people who can't defend themselves. People like Adolf Hitler were subject to savage criticism DURING THEIR LIFETIMES. That is quite a different situation from others, like Washington and Jefferson, who were lionized by their peers, but who may fail the "microscope test" which some in this generation so sanctimoniously apply.
23
You mean, Washington and Jefferson, the , among other things, terrorists and traitors to the Crown? ;-)
1
The good news: the subways will be free of statues that might offend any flavor of leftist.
The bad news: They cost the taxpayers billions and are dirty and unreliable
You simply can't make this stuff up
The bad news: They cost the taxpayers billions and are dirty and unreliable
You simply can't make this stuff up
15
"MTA to Modify Subway Station Design Resembling Confederate Flag," NY Times, August 18, 2017
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/nyregion/mta-confederate-flag-tiles.html
You really can't make this stuff up!
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/nyregion/mta-confederate-flag-tiles.html
You really can't make this stuff up!
1
Why in the world didn't you keep Bloomberg?
17
He served his two term limit and then since the city couldn't find a better candidate they revised the charter so he could run a third term. I say bring him back to run again!
Political correctness over substance?
I guess no one will be erecting a statue of you, Mr. Mayor.
I guess no one will be erecting a statue of you, Mr. Mayor.
17
DeBlasio is this city's biggest symbol of hate.
18
That comment is absurd beyond belief.
New York's namesake, James II , Duke of York ,did much to advance the slave trade, as well is instituting Colonial policies harmful to Native American
interests.. It is time to examine who we are as a City ! Let us cleanse our history and come up with a more "correct" name. Mr. Mayor - lead the way !
interests.. It is time to examine who we are as a City ! Let us cleanse our history and come up with a more "correct" name. Mr. Mayor - lead the way !
17
Charles II gave the land to his brother, the Duke of York (later James II), but New York is named after the place (hence the distinction "New").
4
Let's also be careful. Who knows what sorts of activities we engage in today that in the future will be considered truly horrible? I wouldn't want a statue to Obama to be taken down because he ate meat or smoked a cigarette.
25
Mayor Bill's progressive politics is race based. That's his obsession. First it's cops now it's statues. The only difference between him and Trump is the direction they come from. - left right. And maybe, if we're lucky, they both will share the same fate in the coming year and get thrown out of office. We need leaders for all the people. ALL.
34
Hear him, Hear him. I couldn't agree more.
Our Mayor and City Council Speaker are the King and Queen of PC run amok in the City. Our City Council Speaker recently marched with an extremely controversial individual and had no qualms about doing so but does with an individual from over 500 years ago. Her term will soon expire but, unfortunately, we will still have the mayor at the helm. We have quality of life fraying 24/7 - too many vendors, hawkers, the oftentimes illegal behavior of the pedicabs, too much traffic, sidewalk gridlock, private rubbish removal companies in total non-compliance of City Council noise codes - where isour Speaker? - and there is no focus or enforcement. The homeless are there in every increasing numbers. I live in midtown west and observe/hear violations on an ongo0ing basis. I doubt that statues in this City are a high priority for most of our residents. That is not to say that perhaps some plaques might be an acceptable alternative. (New York Times - please an article/series on our fraying quality of life. Thank you!)
29
I'm a very much on the left politically, but when does this all end? The discussion of the Confederate statues is totally understandable and the right thing. But someone is always going to be offended by something, somewhere. How far do we go to not offend someone? Right now it feels like all the left can do is grievance politics, which is ultimately divisive. Focusing on this stuff and not actual policies that promote a progressive agenda is ultimately self-defeating.
45
I am uncomfortable with that.
This is obviously an extremely contentious issue, with extremely strong feelings on all sides.
But, one thing's for sure.
Simply ignoring the fact that many people are extremely offended by certain memorials is not going to make the issue disappear.
Implementing a formal, open method of review is thus a step in the right direction. Hopefully Mayor DeBlasio succeeds in coming up with an effective process.
But, one thing's for sure.
Simply ignoring the fact that many people are extremely offended by certain memorials is not going to make the issue disappear.
Implementing a formal, open method of review is thus a step in the right direction. Hopefully Mayor DeBlasio succeeds in coming up with an effective process.
2
In 1898 a formal review agency was created to review and approve designs for any work of art, architecture and landscape architecture installed on NYC property. The agency until recently was called The Art Commission of the City of New York and now it is named the Design Commission. Their purview ranges from the design of parks to signage to any visible installation on City property. This Commission has ensured quality design for over a century and the City has greatly benefited from their esthetic expertise.
2
If these are statues of people who weren't actually traitors, I think some very readable and noticeable signage should be erected next to each one, explaining the downside of these "heroes."
8
The mistake was the instinct to go big instead of narrow. The Confederate statues represent a nearly unique case in that those honored are people who (a) took up arms against our country, (b) fought for a repugnant cause - both to modern sensibilities and at the time, (c) are being honored specifically for those bad actions and not unrelated good deeds. It is an easy call, and yet remains quite controversial. It gets harder from there as you begin to look at other cases.
It should have been obvious from day one that taking an expansive "everything is on the table" approach was going to be divisive and unpopular. It is a mystery to me why the Mayor chose that course. Perhaps it wasn't a decision driven by political calculations, but one made in spite of them. Or perhaps there is a level of political subtlety not visible, a benefit that balances out the costs. We should keep an open mind about motivations and focus on the issue instead.
It should have been obvious from day one that taking an expansive "everything is on the table" approach was going to be divisive and unpopular. It is a mystery to me why the Mayor chose that course. Perhaps it wasn't a decision driven by political calculations, but one made in spite of them. Or perhaps there is a level of political subtlety not visible, a benefit that balances out the costs. We should keep an open mind about motivations and focus on the issue instead.
9
As we see military arms back in the hands of local police, and as we see federal and state marijuana clashes, we have to look at the civil war as more than slavery. Yes, slavery was the boulder that broke the camel's back as the south's economic staple, and yes, it is and was repugnant, but the even larger issue is states' rights. Who has control over policy, the feds or the state? I don't think all things the south fought for are worth forgetting. I think the conversation then is still relevant now.
3
Justin:
The civil war was not fought over slavery. Slavery was the dominant political issue prior to the war, but the war was fought over the right to secede from the Union. The South did not want to dominate the North. Lincoln did want to dominate the South to prevent its secession from the Union. Lincoln chose to war instead of accept the South's right to secede. As a result, over 600,000 Americans on both sides died (more from the North than the South).
I fully understand how black persons could revere Lincoln for using victory in the war to end slavery. But as vile as slavery is, does that make Lincoln a hero for sacrificing over 600,000 lives?
The civil war was not fought over slavery. Slavery was the dominant political issue prior to the war, but the war was fought over the right to secede from the Union. The South did not want to dominate the North. Lincoln did want to dominate the South to prevent its secession from the Union. Lincoln chose to war instead of accept the South's right to secede. As a result, over 600,000 Americans on both sides died (more from the North than the South).
I fully understand how black persons could revere Lincoln for using victory in the war to end slavery. But as vile as slavery is, does that make Lincoln a hero for sacrificing over 600,000 lives?
1
Like all Democrats, liberal and progressives, de Blasio believes he can re-write history according to his narrow, politically correct opinion of how it should have been. However, once he opens the Pandora's Box of monument review, de Blasio will be surprised as to how many aggrieved special interest groups rise up to demand the eradication of statues and monuments that offend them. Good luck with that, Mayor de Blasio. You will reap what you have sewn.
48
Paul,
Careful when paint people with a broad stroke, or shall I say all conservatives and Republicans are Neo-Nazi, white supremacist?
Careful when paint people with a broad stroke, or shall I say all conservatives and Republicans are Neo-Nazi, white supremacist?
It is so impressive that you know all liberals and progressives and Democrats – congratulations! Of course, the issue is not rewriting history but learning it. Something that all of you on the right (;) refused to do
Lumping everyone on the left together debases your point. Plenty of people on the left agree with you. But I could just call you an ignorant right winger and move on.
I started having regrets about voting for de Blasio when he tried to ban the carriage horses. The latest is wanting to dig up plaques of people he doesn't think warrant acclaim.
I'm voting for Sal Albanese in the Sept primary.
I'm voting for Sal Albanese in the Sept primary.
37
But he made it pretty clear before that he would do that. It was a condition of the people that paid for his election.
He said he was going to ban the carriage horses during the campaign so why did you vote for him in the first place? You knew he was going to try to do it.
This really is much easier than it's being made out to be. The deeds of a (wo)man must be understood in the context of his/her time, as well as judged against their entire body of work. So, a slaveholding Thomas Jefferson is not the same as Jefferson Davis, as has been discussed at length. Ulysses S. Grant is not the same as Robert E. Lee. Really, lots of men worth honoring did at least a few bad things.
That said, the plaques on Broadway strike me as different, as those are not monuments but to me are a literal expression of the "history" argument. They are a catalog, a recording, of for whom ticker tape parades were given. I see no great injury from this--these are not statues. Attitudes about, say, the Shah, have changed in the intervening years, but the parade still happened. We're not memorializing the Shah, we're noting the parade.
That said, the plaques on Broadway strike me as different, as those are not monuments but to me are a literal expression of the "history" argument. They are a catalog, a recording, of for whom ticker tape parades were given. I see no great injury from this--these are not statues. Attitudes about, say, the Shah, have changed in the intervening years, but the parade still happened. We're not memorializing the Shah, we're noting the parade.
27
But then isn't it all simply in the eye of the beholder; i.e. the slippery slope of subjectivity? And of course, not surprisingly, our politicians rather than weighing in with a moderate degree of counter cyclical wisdom feed the flames of frenzy.
6
If all these Broadway plaques commemorate "bad" people, then isn't appropriate and ironic thousands of pedestrians are presumably tromping on them daily? I'm also wondering if some nut job will now want to rename NY State
The celebration of a confederate figure is wrong. Where a monument serves as a rallying point for white supremacists or a war fought in defense of slavery, it is understandable that we would want it removed. But a plaque on a tree, or on a parade route? That is just history and it makes no sense to remove it.
No one will start admiring Marshall Petain, a reviled figure, because he was given a victory parade. He will continue to be seen as someone who abused and lost his reputation by collaborating with the Nazis, more an object lesson than anything else.
Similarly, knowing that a tree was planted by Robert E. Lee adds a bit of color to our lives. It does not encourage New Yorkers, who, after all, fought on the other side of the Civil War, to embrace his unprincipled cause.
I fear that these politically correct iconoclasts will strip us of our past, substituting a whitewashed nursery school version of history for that of a country that was born not as a Utopia but as an ideal that has been extended and perfected for more than two centuries now, and requiring of transformative figures such as Columbus a moral perfection and historical prescience that no man can or ever will achieve.
No one will start admiring Marshall Petain, a reviled figure, because he was given a victory parade. He will continue to be seen as someone who abused and lost his reputation by collaborating with the Nazis, more an object lesson than anything else.
Similarly, knowing that a tree was planted by Robert E. Lee adds a bit of color to our lives. It does not encourage New Yorkers, who, after all, fought on the other side of the Civil War, to embrace his unprincipled cause.
I fear that these politically correct iconoclasts will strip us of our past, substituting a whitewashed nursery school version of history for that of a country that was born not as a Utopia but as an ideal that has been extended and perfected for more than two centuries now, and requiring of transformative figures such as Columbus a moral perfection and historical prescience that no man can or ever will achieve.
23
"I fear that these politically correct iconoclasts will strip us of our past, substituting a whitewashed nursery school version of history for that of a country that was born not as a Utopia but as an ideal that has been extended and perfected for more than two centuries now, and requiring of transformative figures such as Columbus a moral perfection and historical prescience that no man can or ever will achieve." Perfect, Josh Hill in New London. But your point of view is several cuts above that of the followers of today's politically correct propaganda. And, yes, every politician with de Blasio's bent will jump on board the bandwagon.
5
Such a reasoned and helpful response, Mr. Hill. I appreciate it and agree with everything except your first point. When I walk to an appointment on lower Broadway, I love seeing every one of those bronze plaques. To me, they actually are landmarks as they reveal a great deal about who we were at the time of the parade in question. In retrospect, some of those who were celebrated were fools. Some were even villains. Still, it's useful to recall that in 1931, Petain, later so reviled, was a hero.
Otherwise, I think we should re-consider all this knocking down of monuments. At this point, we should be able to accept the horrors involved with the age of exploration and colonization yet still remember that who we are owes much to Columbus. We are Columbia, after all, named after the man who, in 1492, decided to "sail the ocean blue."
I cannot even imagine New York City without that great sight. Tearing it down would denigrate the efforts of millions of immigrants, and not just Italians, to meld their culture with that of the New World.
Otherwise, I think we should re-consider all this knocking down of monuments. At this point, we should be able to accept the horrors involved with the age of exploration and colonization yet still remember that who we are owes much to Columbus. We are Columbia, after all, named after the man who, in 1492, decided to "sail the ocean blue."
I cannot even imagine New York City without that great sight. Tearing it down would denigrate the efforts of millions of immigrants, and not just Italians, to meld their culture with that of the New World.
4
Actually, New York itself is on rather shaky ground; i.e. the Anti - Draft riots in which scores of African - Americans were killed by mobs of enraged working class whites subject to military conscription.
3
This statue business is naive and a whitewash of human history.
If you look at Europe, Africa, the Middle East in the 15th Century you had everyone from Ottomans, to Christians, to Caliphs, to North African Pirates all at each others' throats. Each stole, tortured, hacked and burned the other and each other. And it was out of all this slaving, pillaging, burning and human brutality that a lot of the prevailing attitudes of figures like Columbus etc were formed.
Human misery is a two way street and there is no race or creed that is innocent.
Repeat. There is no race or creed that is innocent.
So when you start to sling the dirt around watch that is doesn't come back around.
If you look at Europe, Africa, the Middle East in the 15th Century you had everyone from Ottomans, to Christians, to Caliphs, to North African Pirates all at each others' throats. Each stole, tortured, hacked and burned the other and each other. And it was out of all this slaving, pillaging, burning and human brutality that a lot of the prevailing attitudes of figures like Columbus etc were formed.
Human misery is a two way street and there is no race or creed that is innocent.
Repeat. There is no race or creed that is innocent.
So when you start to sling the dirt around watch that is doesn't come back around.
76
However I think Confederate slavers are less "innocent" than most others.
I agree. A number of New England abolitionists (including William Lloyd Garrison) were proponents of Northern secession from the Union long before the Civil War. Should Garrison's statue be removed from Boston? I think not.
Aside from being secessionists, Garrison and several other abolitionists were radical cranks, but they were critical to ending slavery.
Aside from being secessionists, Garrison and several other abolitionists were radical cranks, but they were critical to ending slavery.
1
A good example of this is the conflict between Islam and Christianity in the 12th century -- the Crusades -- a forerunner of today's problems, actually -- no good guys there at all. Both sides engaged in what we would today call "war atrocities" -- torture, killing of civilians -- and over land you can argue didn't belong to either of them anyways.
Yet as awful as it was, it is STILL a critical part of our human history and essential understanding the role the Middle East and Israel play in contemporary politics.
Destroying statues and artwork is NEVER CORRECT -- never -- it is the actions of a barbarian intent on destroying the past. The left is wrong on this issue, per usual.
Yet as awful as it was, it is STILL a critical part of our human history and essential understanding the role the Middle East and Israel play in contemporary politics.
Destroying statues and artwork is NEVER CORRECT -- never -- it is the actions of a barbarian intent on destroying the past. The left is wrong on this issue, per usual.
2
On the statue issue, to me, there is a big difference between putting one up and taking it down. If a town wanted to put up a statute now to which the populace objected....I'd probably be against....if they wanted to remove an existing statue that had been there 60 years....much different issue and a different set of considerations.
There is a very slippery slope here. History has meaning...scrubbing it (however well intended) is very concerning. Lindbergh, Columbus and even the Shah and Petain are historical figures who were honored for some reason at some moment in time. We can debate the merits of those decisions but the discussion also allows us to study and consider our history. Removal is a a destructive act and we should never support the eradication of history.
There is a very slippery slope here. History has meaning...scrubbing it (however well intended) is very concerning. Lindbergh, Columbus and even the Shah and Petain are historical figures who were honored for some reason at some moment in time. We can debate the merits of those decisions but the discussion also allows us to study and consider our history. Removal is a a destructive act and we should never support the eradication of history.
43
The statues being questioned represent selective history. There was another side to the stories which was ignored.
Allen, was it? Grant's Tomb? The Lincoln Memorial? Sheridan Square?
This may not be true in all cases, e.g., the oppression of Native Americans and slaves, but the right approach to that is to create new monuments such as the King Memorial or the Holocaust Museum, not to erase every bit of our history or to pretend that figures like Columbus or even Lee and Petain didn't make a significant contribution to it.
This may not be true in all cases, e.g., the oppression of Native Americans and slaves, but the right approach to that is to create new monuments such as the King Memorial or the Holocaust Museum, not to erase every bit of our history or to pretend that figures like Columbus or even Lee and Petain didn't make a significant contribution to it.
5
Jonah: It was the slaves and native Americans to which I was referring.
The Confederate statues do not represent the history of the south, but are ahistoric. In some of the southern states during the early 1800s, Blacks outnumbered Whites. Why are there no statues to those who were a majority at the time? And even in areas where they were not a majority, Backs were certainly a large part of the population - Why no statues of them?
That's the problem with the claim that the Confederate statues represent history - Whose history do they represent? And why only that small period of time?
The Confederate statues do not represent the history of the south, but are ahistoric. In some of the southern states during the early 1800s, Blacks outnumbered Whites. Why are there no statues to those who were a majority at the time? And even in areas where they were not a majority, Backs were certainly a large part of the population - Why no statues of them?
That's the problem with the claim that the Confederate statues represent history - Whose history do they represent? And why only that small period of time?
1
Time to stop being divisive. Time to form a coalition, forgive our ancestors many trespasses and stop Trump and the GOP.
Now.