I'm extremely anti military spending. If I had my druthrrs I'd cut down military spending by 90 percent. But of the three main branches I do think a decent navy is the most necessary for primary legitimate defense as any current rival even remotely capable of an actual invasion of the US currently reside overseas. I have to wonder given these bizarre collisions and mishaps if our navy isn't basically bored and basic discipline has been allowed to slide? Is there a navy anywhere on the planet that even comes close to matching ours or that represents a significant real threat to ours? I have no doubt that the US Navy could take on and win even an alliance of the next three biggest navies combined. Might the lack of a real viable opponent with the end of the Cold War have unintentionally created a lax command culture in the navy? China is a newbie to aircraft carriers and has what? Two now?
The problem seems to be that Joe Acoin is a "highly decorated" airman, but not sufficiently good as a fleet commander.
I am predicting that, when the navy finishes its inquiry, it finds that the accidents were caused by carelessness and inattention to what's going on. Sad. A good man has to step down because he was too lax with his subordinates.
I am predicting that, when the navy finishes its inquiry, it finds that the accidents were caused by carelessness and inattention to what's going on. Sad. A good man has to step down because he was too lax with his subordinates.
The Navy does not pre-maturely retire three-star fleet vice-admirals every day, so Aucoin's being relieved of duty for "loss of faith in command leadership" is an extraordinary and embarrassing event. It raises the possibility that the investigation into the McCain collision may have concluded that it was not the result of cyberwarfare tactics used against the ship's command/control systems, but the result of deficiencies in crew training and management. Naval officers know full well upon assuming major seagoing commands that they bear the ultimate responsibility for any and all mishaps, especially those that result in injuries and/or deaths.
On the other hand, the Navy has also been known for finding scapegoats among the lower echelon when major accidents or embarrassments take place, such as the explosion of turret 2 aboard the USS Iowa in 1989. The accident claimed the lives of 47 crewmen and the Navy said it was the result of a homosexual love affair that had gone sour between two lowly gunners mates. In fact, the gunpowder used in the firing trials of the ship's main battery was old and unstable and some of it was accidentally spilled into the gun breech during loading and ramming. The two gunners mates' names were eventually cleared, but not before great damage had been done to their good names. The point is the Navy is loathe to blame itself when things go wrong. Someone usually pays with his/her career, as in this case.
On the other hand, the Navy has also been known for finding scapegoats among the lower echelon when major accidents or embarrassments take place, such as the explosion of turret 2 aboard the USS Iowa in 1989. The accident claimed the lives of 47 crewmen and the Navy said it was the result of a homosexual love affair that had gone sour between two lowly gunners mates. In fact, the gunpowder used in the firing trials of the ship's main battery was old and unstable and some of it was accidentally spilled into the gun breech during loading and ramming. The two gunners mates' names were eventually cleared, but not before great damage had been done to their good names. The point is the Navy is loathe to blame itself when things go wrong. Someone usually pays with his/her career, as in this case.
2
Yes to reviewing basic seamanship and training. I have colleagues who teach at a Merchant Marine Academy. Precisely because of concern for relying solely on computerized navigation the school wanted to require astronomical navigation. Students were dismayed and protested - so much to learn, so much work. Yes---please review basic seamanship.
3
Accountability in the service of the nation is very important. I am glad admirals are being held accountable. I hope rank and file will be held accountable when such ridiculous incidents happen.
3
The latest move by the Pentagon, "relieving" Admiral Aucoin as head of the 7th Fleet was just smoke (Admiral Aucoin's getting an early Retirement). Admiral Swift should be removed from command! They have put countless young Americans in harms way, and made us the laughing stock of Asia and the rest of the world.
3
I'm not a conspiracy theorist but it has occurred to me that the computer systems on these ship may have been hacked.
5
Commander is relieved of duty: GOOD! And he needs to be punished. No pension and stripped of rank.
2
trump incoherently steers his "ship" into large, slow moving Republican Party, sustaining considerable damage. 4 times.
The one good thing about the military is the absolute accountability for serious mistakes among the leadership. When my son was in training as an artillery officer in the Marines, one of his instructors said, " Your bars are on every round that comes out of a tube." I was wondering how long it would take for the CNO to replace the 7th Fleet commander. I wish the civilian agencies had the same culture of accountability.
Commander relieved of duty a few weeks before retirement? Wow. That is a responsive Navy. What a swift and severe punishment. Does he keep his golf club memberships? With US Navy incompetence showing all over the map, people in command should be jailed. This is unacceptable dereliction of duty. The ship captains should be subject to court martial. Our Navy must be run by a bunch of politicians, rather than competent officers. And they are asking for more billions to fund more vessels that won't know how to not collide with tankers and cargo ships in the open ocean? People died and dereliction of duty is the reason. The price to be paid cannot simply be to " retire a few weeks early."
4
let's not rule out the possibility that a hostile party has been hacking into the navigation systems of some of our 7th fleet ships and causing or at least contributing to the unusually high number of recent collisions . . . however, the fact that the navy relieved aucoin of command so close to his retirement suggests that he may not have been sufficiently proactive in responding to these unfortunate events . . .
1
So both of these Admirals are great pilots, so, the problem is not with airplanes, too bad they cannot steer ships. And why do sailors have camouflaged uniforms, so they can hide in the water? I mean, how stupid is that?
3
The military is showing north Korea that not only can't we shoot straight, we can't even steer a ship.
Mr. "President", is this what MAGA looks like?
Mr. "President", is this what MAGA looks like?
3
I am a life-long land-lubber with no experience in this arena but can anyone comment on the conceivable possibility that these incidents are targeted practice runs of an unknown foreign technology designed to make U.S. freedom of navigation operations open to possible unintended collisions with foreign vessels which might be spun as acts of war by the U.S. Navy?
3
Also...are these Navy ships operating without running lights on? Of course in wartime you would do that but in peacetime do they also run at night without lights? In both recent occasions it was either the middle of the night or very early morning. The ships that hit these destroyers perhaps couldn't see them in the darkness if they saw no running lights ahead.
4
Oh brother. It's the job of large slow moving cargo ships/tankers to avoid collisions with navy missile cruisers?
The blame for these collisions lies directly on those operating the ship. However, the top man has to go. There needs to be a refocus on training with a new command structure. To say that replacing the Vice Admiral earlier would have prevented these accidents is wrong. Trump Derangement Syndrome is making these comments harder and harder to read. No matter the topic it seems to always circle back to our "so-called" Prez. You're tearing me apart!
4
Its about time. How many more U.S. sailors have to die due to the incompetence of the Navy brass? This is disgraceful and needs to be thoroughly investigated with anyone responsible being relieved of duty.
Its bad enough to lose our servicemen in combat but to do so in peace time while they sleep is unforgiveable.
The U.S. Navy has let us all down.
Its bad enough to lose our servicemen in combat but to do so in peace time while they sleep is unforgiveable.
The U.S. Navy has let us all down.
1
There was "slacking off" at all levels. I hope those officers and enlisted men who should have overseen the training and practices to safely operate are called out as well. Admiral Aucoin is at the top of pyramid of poor training, but there was plenty below him as well.
2
Sounds like someone needed to take the hit and since Vice Adm Aucoin was about ready to retire anyway it was going to be him. The General Officers always seem to cover their own. Where was the Sec of the Navy in all of this?
I operated a 63' boat which ran aground while I slept. I lost the boat and my livelihood as a result of my own negligence in allowing a person who had insufficient experience to take the wheel. The captain is responsible for his ship without any ands, ifs, or buts.
2
That is two Navy ships taken out of service because of "accidents ".How does that effect our strategic coverage of region? I'm finding it hard to not to look for a relationship that could affect us down the road.
3
Our heart goes our to the families of the sailors of the USS John S. McCain who are missing. I believe that the commander of this ship is at a loss as well. Many have expressed the old-fashioned use of seamanship which could include sailors on the bridge, navigating beyond electronic sensors as it used to be; who knows, if this would have averted this tragedy. However, in light of this having been the fourth "accident" on these seas, I think it would be prudent to investigate if these are indeed accidents.
1
In 1966, while in the US Army, I undertook training as a seaman at Ft. Eustis, VA. One of the training phases included serving on an US Army transport ship. It was a two day cruise down the Elizabeth River. On the evening of the first night, we rotated the duties of helmsman and lookout. We were assigned stations on the bow, the stern and the port and starboard side of the bridge. I was a very enthusiastic student and reported everything I saw, as I had been trained. While I was on bow lookout duty, a major startled me. He told me that I was the only one of the student lookouts who was awake. He also remarked that he would make sure I received the best grades for the course. I graduated with Honors and went on to serve in Vietnam as the coxswain in a Mike boat. The point of this comment is that people are people and some need more supervision than others. If there was a failure of the lookouts, it was compounded by the failure of every individual in the chain of supervision.
1
I believe it has nowhere been suggested that a cause for the repeated naval incidents in Asia could be electronic interference/hacking by other naval powers, such as China. While the U.S. Navy may be loath to publicly admit to such scenarios, we must hope that this possibility is nevertheless being looked into.
1
While cybercrime may have been ruled out for the US ships, isn't it possible that someone messed with the cargo ships' auto-pilot navigation system? It would be a brilliant way to take out a big chunk of our navy. Not having look outs is another way, but...
1
With all the stories about malware in the United States, speaking out of total ignorance, is it possible that over dependence on computers which may have been "infected" by North Korea or ?, may have played a role in those accidents?
1
Why in heavens name was this not done after the 1st incident? This man is responsible for deaths now. This does not suggest that our military is at all well run. So much for putting the generals in charge of anything!
2
My heartfelt condolences to the families of these victims. Why is it so many leaders are dropping like flies. How do they get to the top with so little competency? I guess that is as true and as old as the hills. I hope things change in the hiring of Navy leaders.
1
If there are lookouts physically located OUTSIDE on the bridge wings and on the stern as well, as in the Navy I served with (Tin Can Sailor), these types of silly and unnecessary collisions would not have occurred, even if the electronics HAD been hacked. There is NO excuse!
4
These events are tragic. But they happen as a result of human error. As a navy veteran, I can recall two similar incidents of collisions at sea.
1
this is the way responsibility works: ultimately the top guy is in charge. the Navy has seen fit to can the Admiral for what's happened on his watch.
now, what's wrong with the rest of us? things are so great? time to get rid of the top guy. a fish stinks from the head... and the fake hair one must go, just as the Admiral has been dismissed for cause.
now, what's wrong with the rest of us? things are so great? time to get rid of the top guy. a fish stinks from the head... and the fake hair one must go, just as the Admiral has been dismissed for cause.
2
The Navy should have removed Vice Adm. Aucoin earlier, and perhaps many lives of American sailors could have been saved. Why did the Navy wait so long after the first three accidents?
How can other nations expect the U.S. Navy to protect them, when our ships are having this type of dumb and avoidable accidents?
How can other nations expect the U.S. Navy to protect them, when our ships are having this type of dumb and avoidable accidents?
1
The US Navy needs to rethink its collision avoidance training for it’s bridge watch keepers. Ship handling and navigation are a surface warfare officer’s bread-and-butter; if these accidents are a recurrent feature then this reflects a very innate and fundamental problem with personnel training and standards within the navy. Relieving the fleet commander creates a false sense of security that these accidents are not going to happen again, not to mention tarnishing the reputation of a distinguished naval officer who has dedicated the better part of his life in the service of the country.
2
Good points all. And I think after the second collision incident, the Navy is doing a soup to nuts review of all of the potential systemic issues (training, leadership, optempo, systems engineering, etc....), rather than a focus on one issue or one captain or one bridge watch team.
As far as relieving the fleet commander, if you've seen the way that the Navy has held its officer corps accountable for maritime mishaps in the past, there will be many more reliefs and reprimands to come of this....just wait...
As far as relieving the fleet commander, if you've seen the way that the Navy has held its officer corps accountable for maritime mishaps in the past, there will be many more reliefs and reprimands to come of this....just wait...
1
One accident is an anomaly. Two accidents is a coincidence. Three accidents is a pattern. Four accidents is an alarm bell that your problem isn't human error - it's a systems engineering problem, and sacking all the scapegoats in the chain of command won't fix it.
5
Naval officers spend only a small fraction of their careers at sea and only a smaller fraction of that time actually conning a ship and rarely develop the level of seaman' judgment which is considered adequate in the merchant marine.
Historically, this deficit was addressed by separating the military functions of a ship from the navigational. The seamanship of the vessel, piloting, navigation and ship handling were carried out by a "sailing master" typically recruited from the merchant service while the military functions were directed by officers frequently risen through class or political affiliations.
Perhaps it is time return to a system in which seasoned mariners are given a role in guiding our warships.
Historically, this deficit was addressed by separating the military functions of a ship from the navigational. The seamanship of the vessel, piloting, navigation and ship handling were carried out by a "sailing master" typically recruited from the merchant service while the military functions were directed by officers frequently risen through class or political affiliations.
Perhaps it is time return to a system in which seasoned mariners are given a role in guiding our warships.
6
I would see also somebody relieved from his duties after so many collisions in the White House!
4
CA DMV, Allstate, etc. have a safe driving class for Seniors.
3
The Navy is not the only service that has had incidents since January. The Army shot 59 Tomahawk missiles at Syrian airport and only shut it down for a few hours with minimal damage. No drone, AWACS or satellite "after action" photos where provided. Helicopter and airplane crashes and incidents are up also. Special Operations incurred a death of an Operator in Yemen from the horrendous firefight also. I question the morale level in all the Services. We definitely know that civilian morale is down, why not the military? They are not immune from the chaos we have endured since January 20th.
6
The problem is and always has been the manner in which the Navy chooses its leaders. Promotion to 05 (Commander) and beyond, as well as selection for command of ships and squadrons, has long been based on such criteria as political connection within the officer corps, naval academy pedigree, and having had the "right" jobs, rather than tactical ability, seamanship, airmanship, or most importantly, leadership.
Most senior officers abhor dissent - particularly from juniors - and want to be surrounded only by yes men. Don't get me wrong: Every once in a while, an Ernie King, Chester Nimitz, or Arleigh Burke slip through; but overall, the navy does its absolute best to ensure this doesn't happen but once in a historical blue moon. Most navy Captains and Admirals ceased being military officers early in their careers when they realized that political skill trumps tactical skill and seamanship/airmanship.
Most senior officers abhor dissent - particularly from juniors - and want to be surrounded only by yes men. Don't get me wrong: Every once in a while, an Ernie King, Chester Nimitz, or Arleigh Burke slip through; but overall, the navy does its absolute best to ensure this doesn't happen but once in a historical blue moon. Most navy Captains and Admirals ceased being military officers early in their careers when they realized that political skill trumps tactical skill and seamanship/airmanship.
4
I am very curious at these recent cases. There are a lot of questions to be answered. Does firing this Admiral answer any of them? No. I pray for the lost Sailors who lost their lives doing what they were supposed to be doing; projecting power at sea.
1
Due to the lack of confidence in his leadership, we are relieving a Vice Admiral of his duties one month before his retirement. Yet we are keeping a president in the WH for the next 3 and half years or more, although we lack confidence in his leadership.
6
Is there a cyber malware explanation? Can a ship's computer be hacked? Can course be controlled externally? How could so many people and collision systems fail?
3
The so called Seven Fleet or others sail the ocean of the world, like high school bullies. No surprise that incidents or accidents happen! So sorry for those sailors who lost their lives. Some must be trying to get out when the "locks" of the flooded compartments start to come down, just like Titanic.
You have to wonder if these accidents are the result of U.S. attitude vs. the laws of navigation. Much like SUV and large pickup truck drivers who use their mass to cut off smaller vehicles of block lanes, our military may feel they own the seas. Based on the damage, both U.S. ships went into the path of commercial vessels. Being a warship does not eliminate the rules, unless you are engaged in battle.
It is totally baffling that a $20,000 car beeps like crazy if it is getting near any object, and a billion dollar ship has no warning of an impending collision. Maybe we need to mount some Ford, Chevy, and Dodge vehicles around the decks of our ships.
It is totally baffling that a $20,000 car beeps like crazy if it is getting near any object, and a billion dollar ship has no warning of an impending collision. Maybe we need to mount some Ford, Chevy, and Dodge vehicles around the decks of our ships.
4
They can't maneuver ships that fast. Also I read that a lot of ships are on "autopilot" -- merchant ships -- how crazy is that -- and as we know that area is super crowded all the time.
Tankers and cargo ships need miles in which to brake. What would be the good of warning sensors for ships that get close? Their crews can't change course or stop.
The top of this problem is does not stop at the naval leadership but at the oval office. The American military confidence and focus has been eroded by a c-i-c who cannot be trusted. That mistrust has percolated down through the ranks. They are led by an incompetent, blustering liar, and they know it.
1
The military seldom allows for failure, the commanding officer always takes responsibility for all in his/her command.
Yet the Commander in Chief of the entire military traipses around the country doing Hitler style rallies, tweeting childish insane comments, engages in all forms of malfeasance, generates hate and division and acts like a petulant child.
Not a word about the sailors killed in the tragic S.S. McCain accident.
The disconnect is overwhelming!
Yet the Commander in Chief of the entire military traipses around the country doing Hitler style rallies, tweeting childish insane comments, engages in all forms of malfeasance, generates hate and division and acts like a petulant child.
Not a word about the sailors killed in the tragic S.S. McCain accident.
The disconnect is overwhelming!
After repairs the ship should be renamed the Donald Trump rather than McCain. It will then be far less likely to crash into things and put fellow sailors at risk of losing their lives through the reckless behavior that John McCain has been famous for since his Naval Academy attendance. McCain's father and grandfather would be ashamed of their offspring.
This is not the fault of one person. There is systemic failure. Wonder how many of the sailors and people in charge hate OUR government - which just happens to be paying them with OUR hard-earned taxpayer dollars.
I suppose the "new" militants in charge will put war-mongers in place. The International Mafia Top 1% Global Financial Elite Robber Baron/ Radical religion Good Old Boys Cabal want WW3. They do not want progress. They want to take the world back to the "good old days" of the 5th/15th centuries where people like them were called "kings". I have another name for them and will fight to the death to prevent the collapse of democracy in America and the world.
WE THE PEOPLE must get rid of the democracy destroyers, tax the International Mafia Financial Elite into poverty and elect democracy-loving people to manage OUR government. NOW is the time.
I suppose the "new" militants in charge will put war-mongers in place. The International Mafia Top 1% Global Financial Elite Robber Baron/ Radical religion Good Old Boys Cabal want WW3. They do not want progress. They want to take the world back to the "good old days" of the 5th/15th centuries where people like them were called "kings". I have another name for them and will fight to the death to prevent the collapse of democracy in America and the world.
WE THE PEOPLE must get rid of the democracy destroyers, tax the International Mafia Financial Elite into poverty and elect democracy-loving people to manage OUR government. NOW is the time.
1
I totally agree. The Navy always seems to want a scapegoat. My father was lost on the USS Indianapolis, so this has brought back memories of what was done to Capt McVay (so?) at that time.
2
"the Navy is preparing to conduct an extremely rare suspension of ship operations worldwide for a day or two in the next week to review safety and operational procedures . . . also investigating the role that training, manning and crew communications may have played in the accidents."
It's difficult to fathom that human error could be the culprit to not one, but possibly both tragedies - the odds are insurmountable. The best and courageous act on the Navy's part is to suspend operations and investigate every aspect involving the crews. There is no doubt that these actions are a cold comfort to the families who lost a son but a supportive embrace from the sailors (and their families) serving on any ship at sea. May our men and women continue to serve in safe waters.
Deepest condolences to the families.
4
you could ask an actuary, but it does seem that one crash at sea is bad luck but two is more than suspicious.
maybe it's the tragicresult of sloppy operations, but that seems unlikely. more to the point, in that area of the world, could there be sabotage at work, signals jamming, or somethig we can't even imagine? if that's so, woua it be an act of war?
maybe it's the tragicresult of sloppy operations, but that seems unlikely. more to the point, in that area of the world, could there be sabotage at work, signals jamming, or somethig we can't even imagine? if that's so, woua it be an act of war?
2
I disagree. Human error is by far the most likely cause, in both cases.
2
Marine sextants maybe old fashioned technology but they still work. Relying too much on computer technology that could have software bugs and isn't alerting the ship Captains fast enough to avoid collisions could account for these tragic accidents.
2
I used a sextant and chronometer to navigate ships all over the world for over 20 years before GPS went operational. I once took stars by moonlight at 0200 to make sure we were lined up properly for our approach to Galveston, TX.
GPS and ECDIS are so far superior that it isn't even a contest.
Regardless of the technology, it ALWAYS comes down to selecting the right people, training them well, and providing effective supervision and leadership.
GPS and ECDIS are so far superior that it isn't even a contest.
Regardless of the technology, it ALWAYS comes down to selecting the right people, training them well, and providing effective supervision and leadership.
4
Celestial navigation is now an elective course at the U. S. Naval Academy. It is still required of merchant marine deck officers.
I have heard a training program for ensigns was eliminated and they were given on the job experience instead. Lack of training of employees in general in America makes for shoddy service as compared to Eorope, for instance, where every profession is taken seriously and could manes an apprenticeship-- whether working in a bookstore in Germany or as a waiter in France. You're not shoved onto the floor and made to learn by doing with all the attendant bungling. In this case frhe consequences of possible ineptitude where expertise was required are tragic. Please train sailors to the fullest extent. These accidents are so sad and such a stain on the navy's reputation.
6
Why must we, as a people, as a culture, always rush to judgment? Why must we always be so quick to assign blame? Why the urgency?
Why not use our ability for unique and skillful judicial, technological, and investigative systems to slowly and methodically search through the evidence, and allow innocence until proven guilty. Constitutional rights that separate our system from almost any in the world to run its methodical, nonpolitical course.
Yes, I know we are talking military justice here, but I do not believe there is one patriotic American who would deprive the most patriotic among us, the ones fighting on the front lines, risking the ultimate sacrifice, of the same rights that protect us.
Is there one of us who think this man is a traitor, incompetent, not worthy of the chance to defend himself and get to the bottom of these 4 inexplicable Navy accidents in one year in our hottest spot - he's earned that right,
What do we have to do as citizens to earn the right to have the benefit of the doubt, of four fellow citizens and the service they led. They should have our back until proven guilty. Those that assume him responsible for these incidents rather than use him as a valuable asset in finding the cause will be judged themselves.
Why not use our ability for unique and skillful judicial, technological, and investigative systems to slowly and methodically search through the evidence, and allow innocence until proven guilty. Constitutional rights that separate our system from almost any in the world to run its methodical, nonpolitical course.
Yes, I know we are talking military justice here, but I do not believe there is one patriotic American who would deprive the most patriotic among us, the ones fighting on the front lines, risking the ultimate sacrifice, of the same rights that protect us.
Is there one of us who think this man is a traitor, incompetent, not worthy of the chance to defend himself and get to the bottom of these 4 inexplicable Navy accidents in one year in our hottest spot - he's earned that right,
What do we have to do as citizens to earn the right to have the benefit of the doubt, of four fellow citizens and the service they led. They should have our back until proven guilty. Those that assume him responsible for these incidents rather than use him as a valuable asset in finding the cause will be judged themselves.
5
Can we protect our "free trade" global hegemon? Do we have the resources to place battleships to protect all our trade routes, to be able to respond to any crisis? Empires fall when they exceed the geographical limits of control. The price we pay for that cheap foreign-made electronic gadget has a high hidden cost of our military.
2
Why wouldn't Swift be fired as well? This all happened on his watch, within his command. Once may be an accident, but nothing appears to have been done to prevent the next three!
3
I find it disturbingly curious that all of these devastating events happened rather mysteriously in the very area of the world that China is contesting as their sole sphere of influence. China has been known for its attempts to hack government and business computer systems... maybe they are finding ways to infiltrate the electronics on our ships? Still, one would think that those who were standing the watch when these collisions occurred would have been able to spot huge merchant marine ships coming at them amid-ship.
4
Could this be a smartphone problem?
Cops staring at smartphones.
Bus drivers staring at smartphones.
Suburban mothers staring at smartphones.
Everyone everywhere is staring at their smartphones.
No one is LOOKING up and out anymore.
Cops staring at smartphones.
Bus drivers staring at smartphones.
Suburban mothers staring at smartphones.
Everyone everywhere is staring at their smartphones.
No one is LOOKING up and out anymore.
9
"No one is talking about the fantastic things he [President Trump] is doing for the military!" Really, Eric Trump?
3
Young men and women. Cell phones easing boredom during a watch? This is a different world and people...lots of people... are deeply connected to their devices. Just a thought.
7
Excellent point...and probably accurate. In the absence of effective recruitment, training and discipline, a statistical percentage of the same idiots who tailgate and text while driving on the freeway will likely end up on watch or at the helm of a navy warship. Comforting thought.
1
I would be stunned if the use of personnel electronic devices by watch standers was a contributing factor in any of these recent Navy mishaps. "PEDS" are specifically prohibited in any military work space where classified material is administered (this would certainly include the bridge and CIC on a modern AEGIS Class DDG....). I would guess that any lookout using one on watch would quickly find themselves at Captain's Mast, also.
As far as the "cyber-hacking" threat, I'm glad that the Navy is not ruling this out - they really can't rule out anything at this point. But the ship command and control systems don't sit on the internet (at least not at this point), generally, there is an "air gap" around a Naval Vessel. A cyber hack or some type of sabotage would much more likely have to be by someone inside the ship, which god forbid, seems very unlikely.
I suspect that over-reliance on electronic devices, rather than misuse of them, and poor situational awareness are more likely at the root of these tragic shipboard accidents....
As far as the "cyber-hacking" threat, I'm glad that the Navy is not ruling this out - they really can't rule out anything at this point. But the ship command and control systems don't sit on the internet (at least not at this point), generally, there is an "air gap" around a Naval Vessel. A cyber hack or some type of sabotage would much more likely have to be by someone inside the ship, which god forbid, seems very unlikely.
I suspect that over-reliance on electronic devices, rather than misuse of them, and poor situational awareness are more likely at the root of these tragic shipboard accidents....
1
Thoughts and prayers for all those who have given their lives in service to our country.
6
Reminds me of how long it took Lincoln to find a useful military leader.
Young, overworked - Some of these guys pull 12-18 shifts.. try that on a small ship like a Destroyer. There really is no place to go. The Navy needs to overhaul their manning protocols. Also there are too many untrained and undisciplined crew members on the ship- It's no longer your father's or grandfather's Navy- the smaller ships are hot beds for complaints and low morale. Also somebody needs to examine the Vice Admiral's position with 7th fleet- I had heard it was an "easy last gig" stepping stone before retirement. If that's the case that needs to be changed immediately. Lastly, and as expected- Vice Admiral Aucoin was a Navy pilot and not a seamen -- The Navy needs to veer away from awarding their top commands to their pilots.
2
You clearly have no idea how the naval chain of command system works, nor of life aboard a fighting ship. And apparently you have forgotten that when the draft ended in the 70s and our country was sold an all-volunteer military bill-of-goods, our fighting forces were supposed to comprise well-paid, highly skilled career professionals. (Not amateurs serving just one hitch to earn college money as in the days of conscription our fathers and grandfathers (and I) experienced.) And their quality was not supposed to devolve over time, either.
That said, there should be zero tolerance for untrained or undisciplined personnel in the services. The recent firings of senior naval officers and NCOs reflect that. We're paying for better and should demand no less.
That said, there should be zero tolerance for untrained or undisciplined personnel in the services. The recent firings of senior naval officers and NCOs reflect that. We're paying for better and should demand no less.
@Mr White
I have watched enough WWII Navy movies to understand perfectly how the Naval chain of command works. My comments and observations ae sound and if anything- I am the one who should be paid for shelling out this million dollar advice.
I have watched enough WWII Navy movies to understand perfectly how the Naval chain of command works. My comments and observations ae sound and if anything- I am the one who should be paid for shelling out this million dollar advice.
"four accidents since January, including two fatal collisions in the past two months"?
And this is in peacetime, under apparent;y normal weather conditions? Simply mind-boggling dereliction of duty by someone / some people resulting in loss of life.
A naval officer's most basic charge is to keep your ship safe, not let it be sunk, and protect the lives of the men and women under your command. (That's been the case since the days of the Athenian navy, the Roman navy, the British navy, the WW 2 US Navy...) Failure to do any or all of these three obligations has traditionally been cause for shame, dismissal, and court-martial.
Let's see the navy brass-hats assume some real "responsibility" for these fiascos and loss of life. Saying "sorry, but we'll do better 'looking ahead'" just doesn't cut it!
And this is in peacetime, under apparent;y normal weather conditions? Simply mind-boggling dereliction of duty by someone / some people resulting in loss of life.
A naval officer's most basic charge is to keep your ship safe, not let it be sunk, and protect the lives of the men and women under your command. (That's been the case since the days of the Athenian navy, the Roman navy, the British navy, the WW 2 US Navy...) Failure to do any or all of these three obligations has traditionally been cause for shame, dismissal, and court-martial.
Let's see the navy brass-hats assume some real "responsibility" for these fiascos and loss of life. Saying "sorry, but we'll do better 'looking ahead'" just doesn't cut it!
3
It's difficult to imagine how a ship outfitted with the latest in electronic gear could be involved in a collision - what were the sailors and their supervisors doing on their watch? Social media? Sleeping? not on deck? The captain and admirals are responsible - and ultimately the Commander in Chief. The country is going down the Tubes as Trump Tweets.
5
I can imagine the suffering of the families is beyond what anyone could bear. And now, those whose family members are deployed will have an additional ominous burden to carry. Navy families truly suffer - bad enough when things are 'good', unimaginable at times like this. I hope they begin to receive the honor they deserve.
Having just read about how 'sexy' the job "data scientist' is today- how it will save us-- I am glad to read so many comments from those who know the seas- whether active or retired Navy, merchant marine, etc. You seem to be very much in agreement that the issue is an over-reliance on this fancy data. It's not that the data is 'wrong', it's just too much. In this case- our great Navy is literally sinking. (Hacking or the officers were otherwise engaged while they supposed the 'machine intelligence' was in charge?) It's also the case in hospitals- deaths by 'machine intelligence', 'beep-fatigue', etc. In public transportation- derailments, crashes etc due to over-reliance on machine 'intelligence'. Most of us have stories of GPS 'disasters'- whether we followed it when we knew we shouldn't and ended up miles from our destination, or worse yet- followed it into our demise. And yet- we still believe we can hand over our own skill and judgement to things that - if they fell into a puddle- will die. I tip my (proverbial) hat to all those who have lived long enough to know how to make good decisions, and then take responsibility for the outcomes.
Having just read about how 'sexy' the job "data scientist' is today- how it will save us-- I am glad to read so many comments from those who know the seas- whether active or retired Navy, merchant marine, etc. You seem to be very much in agreement that the issue is an over-reliance on this fancy data. It's not that the data is 'wrong', it's just too much. In this case- our great Navy is literally sinking. (Hacking or the officers were otherwise engaged while they supposed the 'machine intelligence' was in charge?) It's also the case in hospitals- deaths by 'machine intelligence', 'beep-fatigue', etc. In public transportation- derailments, crashes etc due to over-reliance on machine 'intelligence'. Most of us have stories of GPS 'disasters'- whether we followed it when we knew we shouldn't and ended up miles from our destination, or worse yet- followed it into our demise. And yet- we still believe we can hand over our own skill and judgement to things that - if they fell into a puddle- will die. I tip my (proverbial) hat to all those who have lived long enough to know how to make good decisions, and then take responsibility for the outcomes.
4
Removing the guy at the top is pretty-easy and commonplace in our military. Too bad it doesn't work that way for the White House . . .
6
readiness? or complacency? which shall it be? this is a sector of our government the taxpayers rely upon for wise investment of resources, material and personnel. dependency upon technical infrastructure, from design to end user is becoming a cash cow for some contract corporate types, while actual lives have been lost for the simplest of attention to details during common transit activity, with no actual combat action in progress. god help us all if we cannot defend our own forces from the perils of close encounters during 'peacetime'.
2
The Seventh fleet has had huge gaps in leadership for awhile now. Just look at the recent Fat Leonard Scandal (see NY Times 2017 -"Admiral and 8 Other Navy Officers Indicted on Bribery Charges"). That sailors have to die because of this - is criminal. Whatever is being done.......isn't enough.
6
Admiral Aucoin was a naval aviator. That's not a good sign. For those unfamiliar with the situation, the U.S. navy has a long standing feud between naval aviators and surface officers within the ranks. The "brown shoes" and the "black shoes" or so the nicknames go. I fear Adm. Aucoin's conduct will encourage a regression towards the Navy's more conservative principles. That's not necessarily a good thing. You'll have a lot of bullwhip cracking down the chain of command as a result. These sailors' deaths might actually further diminish the Navy's combat effectiveness in an already tense and stressful situation. A two day holiday isn't going to change the underlying fundamentals. The only upside is Aucoin's replacement was already planned. That will hopefully make the transition more fluid.
2
It sounds to me like a generation of sailors who grew up on video games are just a little too inclined to look at their fancy electronic screens and a little disinclined to go up on deck with a pair of binoculars and look around.
Even if the electronics were "hacked" (for which we have no evidence whatever) a container ship is a pretty big vessel. It would be pretty hard for a ship that big to sneak up on a Navy destroyer if someone, anyone, was up on deck actually keeping any sort of real time watch.
Even if the electronics were "hacked" (for which we have no evidence whatever) a container ship is a pretty big vessel. It would be pretty hard for a ship that big to sneak up on a Navy destroyer if someone, anyone, was up on deck actually keeping any sort of real time watch.
10
"a container ship is a pretty big vessel"
Indeed. And slow as well. Consider that the USS Cole was attacked successfully with a small, fast boat packed with explosives. This lack of situational awareness is beyond unacceptable--even for a minute.
Indeed. And slow as well. Consider that the USS Cole was attacked successfully with a small, fast boat packed with explosives. This lack of situational awareness is beyond unacceptable--even for a minute.
1
Simple statistics. More warships we have more collisions. I wonder what these ships were doing, perhaps nothing related to our defence. Our military is on steroids, unnecessary muscle like ugly body-builders.
I was in the army, not the Navy. We didn't have ships and I know absolutely nothing about them or how to handle them. So I have no idea who, if anyone, was at fault in these accidents. So, rather than make a pompous fool of myself, i'll just keep my mouth shut.
3
They were probably tweeting and playing games with their smartphones, just like the recent train conductors in DC and Philly.
3
Yes, we can make stuff up. Or we could let the investigators do their jobs and determine what actually happened.
1
Have our enemies found a way to hack into our navigational electronics? These are too many incidents in one group of our warships.
2
Any commercially available simple radar would have easily detected the vessels which collided with either of the two naval ships. It's incredibly difficult to imagine how this could have been allowed to happen on a fishing trawler much less on a sophisticated US Naval vessel.
1
As a former Naval officer, I urge everyone to stop the after-the-fact armchair quarterbacking. The Navy will convene a board of inquiry and establish, in excruciating detail, the sequence and timing of all events. Those facts should drive conclusions about seamanship of individual sailors. Obviously something went wrong and equally obviously someone, or several someones, is or are responsible. I am confident he, she, or they will be held accountable. Let us respect the process and not make guesses from a distance of thousands of (nautical) miles.
10
Nothing wrong with some innocent speculation. I find it interesting.
1
Doesn't say much for our commanders. We should look into how they are chosen. The process is failing us. The Navy doesn't look so go. Someone needs to shake up that branch of the Service.
1
Considering the modern electronics that naval ships and most commercial vessels nave nowadays, including not only radar, but GPS locaters that allow officials on land to see the location, course and speed of every vessel in an area (similar to what air-traffic controllers have) as well as the ongoing requirement that every vessel have sailors assigned to "maintaining a proper lookout" on deck, one has to suspect that there's a pervasive failure of morale that leads to slackness at all levels: everyone thinks someone else will do his job. That's not something that can be fixed by relieving one CO, but that is a start,
1
No opportunity to blame the media for this fiasco.
3
Heartfelt condolences to all these navy families.
Aucoin has been removed because trouble and calamity under his watch.
Let's hope the government can take a page from this and remove the Commander in Chief before further damage is done to our country.
Aucoin has been removed because trouble and calamity under his watch.
Let's hope the government can take a page from this and remove the Commander in Chief before further damage is done to our country.
1
With all of the technology our navy ships have, and with lookouts with binoculars on the bridge - how do you not see massive ships approaching? Two collisions in two months?
4
My heart goes out to the families of the lost sailors. In addition, it is a shame that the historic reputation of the 7th Fleet has been tarnished beyond repair.
1
Beyond repair may be a bit strong.
North Korea is threatening to release all its cargo ships to take down the U.S Navy. We need a new commander to counteract this threat.
1
The Navy appears to have a systemic problem in their operations. I hope they bring in outside investigators & analysts to get to the bottom of these accidents, identify possible solutions, and assist with operational implementation. If there ever is a time for external assessment this is it. Meanwhile Kim can't stop laughing.
I can only imagine what Trump would be tweeting right now if anyone other than him was in the White House.
1
devastating - but almost un-reported by this cracker-jack NY Times staff - that US 'advanced' systems are taken down by over-sided tug boats. this is unbelievable!!! in the history of the United States Navy... PJS
Not seeing how it's unreported.
Is it possible they can detect and destroy a missile coming their way but can be damaged by a slow moving cargo ship?
4
from the location and condition of the damage, it may be a simple as 'cutting it too close' as they crossed into the path of the side coming tanker. at speed, this could have been within a time frame of mere seconds where avoidance would have occurred. prayers for the lost, penance for those responsible.
please, don't play around our my tax dimes!
please, don't play around our my tax dimes!
1
Literally billions spent on each ship, which the Navy proudly proclaims to be stufffed with the latest electronics and computer systems. Yet they crash into sea traffic all over the world. We can all look forward to this government bringing us self-driving cars for I-95 and downtown Manhattan.
8
The Navy appears to have prioritized war fighting over basic seamanship.
Ten sailors have paid with their lives.
Ten sailors have paid with their lives.
5
OOD in the Vietnam era. This looks bad, all of this looks bad, but none of us were there. Let's hold our tongues until the inquiries are over.
7
This is just another situation where someone is not going their job.
Someone needs to loose their job, stripped of their chest ribbons, and denied their pension. The military is as bad as Wall Street banks.
Someone needs to loose their job, stripped of their chest ribbons, and denied their pension. The military is as bad as Wall Street banks.
2
There should be video cameras recording what the bridge team, lookouts and radar operators are doing every second. This is unacceptable.
3
If North Korea wants to threaten the US, they are wasting money on ICBM development. It would be much cheaper to buy ships that are being sent to scrap and periodically sail them. The US Pacific fleet wouldn't last long at the current rate.
The incompetence would be funny if it were not for the lost lives and wasted taxpayer money.
The incompetence would be funny if it were not for the lost lives and wasted taxpayer money.
4
Jail would be appropriate for this obvious incompetent.
2
Several days ago I mentioned that considering the new technologies so rapidly taking over, old bosses are the "cart before the horse." Joseph Aucoin, now fired, was a good example. Give young staff a chance to express their views, listen to them, and use their new knowledge and skills.
1
They should investigate how dumbing down of our educational system and emphasis on diversity instead of competence contributed to a sudden rash of unbelievable and unexplained accidents.
3
Interesting, and fitting, that such a senior person in command is sacked. That's what has always impressed me about the military, and the Navy in particular. They go right to the top and fire the person in charge. I wish we would have the same response on the civilian side. How often do we see, continually, top executives of corporations ruin a company, or cause havoc in the economy and remain in their position? Heck, they may even get a ridiculously obscene bonus out of their gross incompetence. Organizations need to hold their top people accountable and be willing to set an example. Naval officers are given great power and privilege and they understand that they will be removed and replaced when they fail to meet the expectations of the mission.
8
Just imagine how sacking a senior person in civilian life would have sent George W., Cheney and Rumsfeld to prison. Maybe it is not such a bad idea after all.......
1
I know nothing about navigating a navel ship at sea but one would think with all the electronics these ship are said to have this should not be happening. Unless there is a systemic issue of seamen not being fit to be on duty, the only other area of concern is about something effecting the electronics.
1
I am a Navy kid. My father commanded US Navy ships back in the day, and this is the first time I have observed a US Navy ship with lines of old rust dripping down the sides as there was in the photo of the USS McCain. It looked as though it had not been maintained for years; a poor reflection on the Navy.
6
As an Air Force 'brat' whose Dad was a Colonel & dealt with USAF Generals in the Pentagon...
Can't say as I didn't see that one coming. Rank & responsibility have consequences.
Adm. Richardson, CNO: "Joe, you seem to be in a no win situation here. In light of recent events-- beyond your control-- we think it's time for a change in leadership. Nothing personal. We just need to bring in someone new. I've been looking, and no lateral assignments I'm afraid. Anything else would be seen as a demotion. Planning to retire? I'll personally put you in for the Defense Distinguished Service Medal."
Vice Adm. Aucoin: "Yes sir. I understand. I take full responsibility. Will put in the paperwork. Thank you. Permission to be dismissed sir."
"Needn't be so formal Joe! But yes... Dismissed." (They exchange hand salutes)
Exit Vice Admiral Aucoin who comfortably retires as an O-9.
Can't say as I didn't see that one coming. Rank & responsibility have consequences.
Adm. Richardson, CNO: "Joe, you seem to be in a no win situation here. In light of recent events-- beyond your control-- we think it's time for a change in leadership. Nothing personal. We just need to bring in someone new. I've been looking, and no lateral assignments I'm afraid. Anything else would be seen as a demotion. Planning to retire? I'll personally put you in for the Defense Distinguished Service Medal."
Vice Adm. Aucoin: "Yes sir. I understand. I take full responsibility. Will put in the paperwork. Thank you. Permission to be dismissed sir."
"Needn't be so formal Joe! But yes... Dismissed." (They exchange hand salutes)
Exit Vice Admiral Aucoin who comfortably retires as an O-9.
4
Is this a case akin (albeit on a far more complex scale) to drivers of many modern cars, with lane change alerts, distance warning radar cruise control, back up cameras, etc. who have still accidents because they expect the technology to always work, always be right, always be reliable under all conditions? Simply things like turning ones head when changing lanes or backing up and so old school no? Are we seeing that with the Navy, so reliant on technology that something like manning the bridge with eyes and binoculars is being ignored or considered unnecessary?
6
Investigate cyber attack on navigation systems. Too many coincidences. Over reliance on instruments, poor training all contribute.
1
Obviously, the bucks stops just below the White House. But, what I don't understand, how does this fix the collisions from happening at this time when they don't know what happened.
1
With all of the terrorism being committed by murderers behind the wheel of vehicles running down and into innocents I have to wonder if deliberate ramming of our ships has been ruled out.
3
Accountability - what an idea. Should have gone in to banking, admiral.
Or become a federal bureaucrat!
Why are such large Navy ships in these congested waters?
First a destroyer is not all that large as far as naval ships go; second, are we supposed to just avoid all busy areas of the world's shipping lanes because of faulty technology or practices?
2
Our trade defenses burgeon with the square of the distance from our country. "Free trade" isn't so free when we consider all the resources we must deploy globally to keep the flow of "cheap stuff" coming our way. Larger vessels provide the life support for "iron islands" - "cities on the seas".
Because it's a contested area. We don't need ships where there aren't threats.
Cmon.....
Cmon.....
2
We have a peacetime military staffed by career bureaucrats trying to carry out a real war. Warriors make bad bureaucrats and bureaucrats make bad warriors. Scapegoating a short timer admiral is nothing but a ritual sacrifice to protect and entrenched bureaucracy.
2
Faulty machinery is the problem not the Captain. But alas as what happen on May 6, 1964 When the USS Decatur lost it's steering fore and aft both ships will have their captains relieved.
Rest In Peace.
Rest In Peace.
1
I'm sorry, are we to believe that being allowed to retire a month early is a dressing down?
2
Especially since he doesn't lose any of his retirement benefits, aside from his reputation.
1
So they finally take the necessary action. This man is incompetent. Now a court martial should be in line and the families of the sailors lost by incompetent leadership should be compensated. Further, the Navy must be restructured so that they are capable of commanding vessels, that means proper choice of commanders of Naval vessels, and discipline which is expected from the military. Not weak leadership as we have seen in these two obvious cases, and the previous scandal which was an indictment of the Navel Command from top to bottom.
1
He failed in his job. He must go. Bring in someone knew who can execute with success and preserve the freedom of the seas. If it wasn't for US Navy, it would be mayhem on the high seas.
2
As we, the world, America, whomever, develop more and more complex systems reliant on electronics and its associated technology, as that implies, I will be sticking with a canoe, or a kayak for my water navigation.
2
That two day stand down to catch their breath I'm sure is needed. On another note, can we get some information on the Navy on the fleets, groups etc
Are there 7 Fleets or more in the pacific
Are Carrier Groups part of a Fleet
What about the Atlantic
Is the 2 day review applicable to subs as well
Are there Fleets in the Indian Ocean, South Atlantic etc.
Thanks
Are there 7 Fleets or more in the pacific
Are Carrier Groups part of a Fleet
What about the Atlantic
Is the 2 day review applicable to subs as well
Are there Fleets in the Indian Ocean, South Atlantic etc.
Thanks
3
The Navy needs to do more than just remove the guy on top as this needs an in depth investigation to find the root cause. One time can be a unique failure of combined circumstances, but four is a systemic problem that cannot be allowed to continue. How can we have faith in our naval combat readiness when our ships cannot seem to be able to cross a congested shipping lane in peace time. The Navy has lost something in the technological updates to modern ships that it needs to understand and resolve as soon as possible.
1
How do you not see an OIL TANKER heading towards you?!? How does an oil tanker not see a DESTROYER in its way!?! None of these recent collisions make any sense. Seriously.
2
Two ships crash into two US Navy vessels. We leap to the conclusion that our Navy is incompetent. Is that the only explanation? Could sabotage be involved instead? Could a foreign entity be involved?
Are these accidents only confined to the Navy? How about other military systems and personnel? I understand that missle defences and air missions are also manned and subject to human actions and decisions. If the Navy had four accidents, two culminaing in sailors deaths, perhaps other military divisions should also be 'paused' to review basic training and specific measures to mitigate judgement errors and long shifts that reduce the effectiveness of service personnel.
1
Time to reassess the navy's recruiting and training standards at all level: enlisted and commissioned. Those who served at sea fifty years ago can attest that--even allowing for primitive technology of the time--events like these were a rare occurrence.
In today's tech-oriented navy, the redundancy provided by lookouts, deck officers, radar operators and many other personnel and systems on duty at any given time while a ship is underway should virtually eliminate such risks. These conspicuous failures of training throughout the ranks suggests the whole system needs overhaul.
In today's tech-oriented navy, the redundancy provided by lookouts, deck officers, radar operators and many other personnel and systems on duty at any given time while a ship is underway should virtually eliminate such risks. These conspicuous failures of training throughout the ranks suggests the whole system needs overhaul.
1
I just want to thank the many experienced sailors who shared their thoughts with those of us who know nothing about this profession. I learned a tremendous amount about the issues and problems faced by mariners by reading the comments. One take-away for me was the discussion of the difference in training between the Merchant Marines and the US Navy. One seems to be geared to practical training, the other to theoretical education. Some overlap or joint training between the two seems like a good idea.
2
I'm puzzled about these accidents. Aren't we living at a time when "IT," the technological wonders of our age, including radar, sonar, all sorts of unwanted surveillance, are at the peak of "their game?" Am I wrong to assume that these modern navy ships had the best equipment to detect objects as large as the vessels they collided with? Cargo vessels and a tanker? And that they always operated with human visual backups on duty? Doesn't make sense to me. At all.
If the Republican rights demand better performance daily in our schools, taxpayers should insist on the same from the huge budget of our military. Our high tech military that can't spot ships as large as oil tankers in time.
If the Republican rights demand better performance daily in our schools, taxpayers should insist on the same from the huge budget of our military. Our high tech military that can't spot ships as large as oil tankers in time.
Does anyone know if the Vice Admiral was ever issued a medical marijuana card?
2
We, The United States of America, need more of this forceful impetus of having failed and failing leadership fall on its sword in all branches of the military. This also goes for all branches of government.
For a so-called "young" nation, the United States clings to old leadership, old methods, old governance, old politicians. The entire nation is sclerotic. When methods, procedures, manners, ways, modes, and fashion are worn out, you deep six them -- plain and simple.
Everything that is going on in the Navy, today, with a stand down and examination, should also be going on at all of Service Academies.
Additionally, the President should see to it immediately that if the American military needs wholesale housecleaning in its leadership, that that action takes place.
If the United States cannot safely and effectively field all branches of its military around the world, as it currently sees fit to do, (going back to Afghanistan) then we have no business having any of our military beyond our country's borders and twelve mile limit.
For a so-called "young" nation, the United States clings to old leadership, old methods, old governance, old politicians. The entire nation is sclerotic. When methods, procedures, manners, ways, modes, and fashion are worn out, you deep six them -- plain and simple.
Everything that is going on in the Navy, today, with a stand down and examination, should also be going on at all of Service Academies.
Additionally, the President should see to it immediately that if the American military needs wholesale housecleaning in its leadership, that that action takes place.
If the United States cannot safely and effectively field all branches of its military around the world, as it currently sees fit to do, (going back to Afghanistan) then we have no business having any of our military beyond our country's borders and twelve mile limit.
2
Does anyone believe that the Pentagon would publicly reveal it has been successfully attacked by cyberwarfare or criminal hacking? Our military and civilian navigation systems have been so invested in Global Positioning Satellite operation over the last two decades that a successful attack on that environment would constitute a major disaster for the industrialized world.
The similarity of the Fitzgerald and McCain incidents, and the fact that they occurred in the same contentious theater of operations in China's front yard, are more than enough to suspect that a bad actor might be testing a malignant method of controlling navigation and/or communications processes.
Don't expect an announcement. If a cyberattack is the culprit, the work of investigating, deciphering and countering the scheme will be done far from the public arena. "Pilot error" will be publicly declared (as usual), heads will visibly roll, and we citizens might not know the real story for many years, if ever.
The similarity of the Fitzgerald and McCain incidents, and the fact that they occurred in the same contentious theater of operations in China's front yard, are more than enough to suspect that a bad actor might be testing a malignant method of controlling navigation and/or communications processes.
Don't expect an announcement. If a cyberattack is the culprit, the work of investigating, deciphering and countering the scheme will be done far from the public arena. "Pilot error" will be publicly declared (as usual), heads will visibly roll, and we citizens might not know the real story for many years, if ever.
these collisions started on trump's watch.. as commander in chief he is responsible or more correctly irresponsible?
1
Wow....all I can do is echo the sentiments of others. With all the firepower and tech the crew can command at a "click" it seems basic seamanship has been given short shift? How else to account for a collision like this, and others, occurring in well traversed waters and calm conditions? I'll admit, I'm not an adept sailor, and especially not a warrior sailor, but does this not tell us that issues of sufficiently robust, long term, basic seamanship training of crews undercuts the abilities of the ship in times of war?
We seem to have a fundamental flaw developing here. Perhaps it's a consequence of our modern age. Is it possible we have become so beguiled by all the ship tech that we've failed to maintain and support the lynchpin of that entire shipboard system by a lack of proper training in basic shipboard processes (a never ending one) for the human being commanding and operating it? And that is shipboard processes on a non-tech kind?
After all, from dingy to aircraft carrier, rowboat to destroyer, they still all function in almost identical fashion in that they float and move about on water. If you don't have the basic skillset and training to know how such masses work on such surfaces and the concomitant need for the human to be intimately involved in the process, then regardless of all the tech at your disposal you're in trouble and a menace to others. Such may be the case here.
John~
American Net'Zen
We seem to have a fundamental flaw developing here. Perhaps it's a consequence of our modern age. Is it possible we have become so beguiled by all the ship tech that we've failed to maintain and support the lynchpin of that entire shipboard system by a lack of proper training in basic shipboard processes (a never ending one) for the human being commanding and operating it? And that is shipboard processes on a non-tech kind?
After all, from dingy to aircraft carrier, rowboat to destroyer, they still all function in almost identical fashion in that they float and move about on water. If you don't have the basic skillset and training to know how such masses work on such surfaces and the concomitant need for the human to be intimately involved in the process, then regardless of all the tech at your disposal you're in trouble and a menace to others. Such may be the case here.
John~
American Net'Zen
1
Interesting how quickly the ending of an Admiral's 25-year can be hastened by a month. Problem solved - 2 days!
How did the ship's command not recognize that a ginormous, slowpoke oil-tanker was going to ram them? Answer: Everything is on the table! Translation: You can't handle the truth, thankfully, because no way we're admitting it to John Q Public.
In absentia, the duty officers were unprepared/unsupported; therefore, the ship's commander is responsible. If the Navy doesn't like guesswork, don't insult our intelligence with a firing before the finding.
How did the ship's command not recognize that a ginormous, slowpoke oil-tanker was going to ram them? Answer: Everything is on the table! Translation: You can't handle the truth, thankfully, because no way we're admitting it to John Q Public.
In absentia, the duty officers were unprepared/unsupported; therefore, the ship's commander is responsible. If the Navy doesn't like guesswork, don't insult our intelligence with a firing before the finding.
Appointed under Obama.. Aucoin fought hard and long to get the Harvey Milk, a Navy Oiler (!) assigned to the 7th Fleet.....
Yet one more Obama nightmare appointment... Yet one more risk to national security eliminated. There are many MANY more to go.
Yet one more Obama nightmare appointment... Yet one more risk to national security eliminated. There are many MANY more to go.
Another example of the country being out of control and disintegrating before our eyes. Our frailties are becoming too obvious.
I've got serious doubts about this latest iteration of US surface ships and suspect they're just big fat sitting ducks for a whole potpourri of anti-ship missiles from many nations that can put 'em on the bottom. And I kinda' thought the whole question of surface ship efficacy was settled at the Battle of Jutland over 100 years ago. The German U-boat was its most effective sea-going weapon and I think the same is true today.
Something is amiss when a Navy ship fails to spot a cargo ship three times its size headed straight towards them on a collision course.
In the meandering insane campaign rally of this mentally unfit president that was thrown upon us, not by popular vote, not one word tonight about this tragic loss of life.
How much, how much, how much more should we be mandated to endure.
God help us. Please.
How much, how much, how much more should we be mandated to endure.
God help us. Please.
1
We have a weak ineffectual military.
Perhaps the US Navy needs to go back to using a crow's nest on ships.
2
And they should bring back the cat-o-nine-tails and hard tack while they're at it.
Reflects the overall impotence and incompetence of US military, losing all wars, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
I am sure Kim Jon Un must be finding this all extremely humourous. If I were a US citizen I would be deeply concerned by these events, given the perilous state of global geo-politics. This is a flashing red light that something is very wrong in the naval arm of the armed forces, and it couldn't come at a worse time. By the way, where is the Commander in Chief in all of this? Does he have a plan of action to get the navy back on course? I highly doubt it.
Is it possible we have been hacked, in a similar way to us hacking N. Korea and their missile launches in the past?
I'm really impressed by the expertise of all these commenters and the quality of their comments. They defy the caricature of NYT's readership as walled-off, unpatriotic urbanites. It gives me newfound respect for the Times.
2
For the families of the missing McCain sailors, I can only offer my thoughts and prayers for their strength and courage as they confront this horrible uncertainty.
I've written elsewhere about the nuts and bolts of this thing, but seeing the picture of Admiral Aucoin, a different thought entered my mind. That uniform he is wearing, it is a NWU (New Working Uniform, digital camouflage). He is not in service dress blues, and this matters. The way we dress affects our attitudes. Ground combat forces wear camouflage for a reason, most of which is functional, but part of which is to get in a frame of mind.
In my opinion, officers and sailors in the fleet need to go back to khakis and dungarees, with modern engineered fabrics if need be. Khakis and dungarees are what sailors wear when they are navigating a ship. Camouflage is what the military wears when it is preparing to engage in ground combat. Halsey and Kinkaid (and many others) did a pretty good job of engaging in combat at sea while wearing khakis and dungarees.
Putting fleet sailors into shipboard appropriate attire would be a powerful signal to refocus on the basics of navigation, ship handling, engineering, damage control, and the dozens of other essential but noncombatant shipboard tasks.
If I had the power to do one thing for the US Navy, it would be this.
I've written elsewhere about the nuts and bolts of this thing, but seeing the picture of Admiral Aucoin, a different thought entered my mind. That uniform he is wearing, it is a NWU (New Working Uniform, digital camouflage). He is not in service dress blues, and this matters. The way we dress affects our attitudes. Ground combat forces wear camouflage for a reason, most of which is functional, but part of which is to get in a frame of mind.
In my opinion, officers and sailors in the fleet need to go back to khakis and dungarees, with modern engineered fabrics if need be. Khakis and dungarees are what sailors wear when they are navigating a ship. Camouflage is what the military wears when it is preparing to engage in ground combat. Halsey and Kinkaid (and many others) did a pretty good job of engaging in combat at sea while wearing khakis and dungarees.
Putting fleet sailors into shipboard appropriate attire would be a powerful signal to refocus on the basics of navigation, ship handling, engineering, damage control, and the dozens of other essential but noncombatant shipboard tasks.
If I had the power to do one thing for the US Navy, it would be this.
1
They should remove the person up the line, the commander-in-chief.
2
Fore Admiral Aucoin, It had better be a dishonourable discharge from the Navy given how many serving men and women in the military have, on much smaller pretexts and/or transgressions left service with a less than honourable discharge which leaves them often ineligible to receive VA medical benefits or support.
This is especially true of Vets who served in Iraq and/or Afghanistan in wartime and who saw more action than this Admiral who has lost so many men by accidents in the fleet over just 6 months and in peacetime.
It will be interesting to see if his discharge reflects the blame given and why he is leaving the Navy.
This is especially true of Vets who served in Iraq and/or Afghanistan in wartime and who saw more action than this Admiral who has lost so many men by accidents in the fleet over just 6 months and in peacetime.
It will be interesting to see if his discharge reflects the blame given and why he is leaving the Navy.
1
How typical and sad: we don't even know what happened but we vilify the commander. In the same week the wreck of the Indianapolis is located we are rushing to do to Aucoin and other officers what was done to the Indianapolis captain in 1945, a rush to judgement without all of the facts. Granted the guy at the top is ultimately responsible but let's at least get the full story before a quick lynching of the command structure followed by a sloppy and secretive investigation which we shall all soon forget.
2
Not just the USN. Royal Navy has in recent years grounded a nuclear sub on a mudbank , another hit a French boat, another hit a rock in the Red sea, another ran aground off Scotland, a destroyer fired a torpedo ati its own dockyard, another ran aground off Australia. Something is badly wrong with RNs basic seamanship. Happily a diminishing problem with us necause we are running short of ships, But if you are at sea near a RN ship, keep well clear...
2
AIS, Automatic Identification System, is used globally on ships, yachts, barges, etc. It allows navigators, helmsmen, to know the course and speed of other vessels in surrounding waters. AIS makes for safe navigation. BUT: our USN seems to have adopted a zero-use policy of AIS. Clearly there are times when the USN would not want to inform their ships' whereabouts. And clearly, there are times when it's prudent to share the info that you're steaming in congested waters.
1
So Vice Adm. Aucoin was due to retire next month and the Navy decided he would make a good public, high ranking scapegoat. Too what degree Aucoin is actually responsible for the inability of Navy personnel to perform basic seamanship I have no idea, and until the investigations into the Fitzgerald and the McCain collisions are completed, neither does the Navy. This will taint Aucoin's post-service job prospects but given his rank he will still get a nice pension so he'll be OK. A little sad, but OK. Maybe the Navy should concentrate on teaching its officers to stay awake and to look at the radars occasionally. If you can't evade a merchant ship how are you going to fight a battle?
50
You are missing the most important thing about this incident. It is not "Aucoin's post-service job prospects" that matters. It is the death of 10 young men that matters.
Years ago I was a qualified OOD and transited the Straits of Singapore several times. Yes, it is a crowded place but that is no excuse for failing to take evasive action well before placing the ship in extremis. A Navy ship has far more people on watch, both on the bridge and CIC, than does a merchant ship. There is simply no excuse for what happened.
Years ago I was a qualified OOD and transited the Straits of Singapore several times. Yes, it is a crowded place but that is no excuse for failing to take evasive action well before placing the ship in extremis. A Navy ship has far more people on watch, both on the bridge and CIC, than does a merchant ship. There is simply no excuse for what happened.
2
How about a stop-loss order to prevent his retirement, in case he has to be tried for dereliction of duty. CNO should issue such an order before Vice Adm Aucoin becomes a civilian. It is not scapegoating to say the commander is accountable for a series of disasters in his fleet.
This is a problem in a lot of navies around the world; they are so obsessed with training for battle (and with the vast scope of weapons and sensors today, training personnel to standard is always a race against time), that they are compromising on the most basic of naval skills- seamanship.
How about using the best technology ever made; A pair of eyeballs.
3
It is hard to speculate on how this collision occurred but since the McCain was struck on the port side, she may have been the privileged vessel under the International Rules of the Road. That means she was obliged to hold course while the burdened vessel, the tanker Alnic MC, was obliged to take corrective actions. If they failed to do so, then the McCain must take necessary evasive action "in extremis." The early management of such situations on either vessel normally falls to the radar watch and the officer of the deck. In the end, a clear knowledge of the ship's handling characteristics are needed to properly evade. Something went wrong on both vessels resulting in a T-bone collision that left a perfect imprint of the tanker's bulbous bow in the side of the destroyer.
33
That's right, Cliff. That zone is dead ahead to "two points abaft the starboard beam." Lesson I for all small boat owners.
1
The perfection of the imprint left by the Alnic's bow suggests that the McCain was stopped when it was hit, and the fact that only the bulbous bow of the Alnic penetrated the McCain rather than cutting it in two suggests that the Alnic was also at reduced speed at the time of the collision. This suggests that the McCain stopped to let the Alnic pass ahead but did it too late - after the Alnic felt forced under the rules to evade by attempting to steer astern of the destroyer - bringing it directly under its bow.
Insisting on privilege be a very maneuverable war ship versus an oil tanker is like a bicyclist asserting rights versus a semitruck coming from the left at a crossing. I'd rather be alive than right.
WHY IS IT NECESSARY To remove Vice Adm Joseph P. Aucoin a month before he was going to retire because of two accidents in a very crowded waterway? What does that prove? Only that Trump can be nasty, vindictive, petty, abusive, stupid and vicious. We already knew that. It is a disgrace that Aucoin was not given his due process rights before the excessively harsh, abusive disciplinary action was taken.
3
Come on.
Two collisions while driving a destroyer.
Who put this guy behind the wheel for a second time
after he crashed the family destroyer the first time?
Why stop at Aucoin?
Can't this be blamed on Hillary or Dear Leader Don?
After all he's the top guy.....
Kimmeled.....
Two collisions while driving a destroyer.
Who put this guy behind the wheel for a second time
after he crashed the family destroyer the first time?
Why stop at Aucoin?
Can't this be blamed on Hillary or Dear Leader Don?
After all he's the top guy.....
Kimmeled.....
1
Does anybody believe that perhaps the navagational systems were hacked.?
4 in one year is not just being a bad sailor to me.
4 in one year is not just being a bad sailor to me.
Good idea. The field skippers are screwing up, so fire the guy who has the least to do with this spate of collisions. How can this vice admiral possibly be accountable for the sudden run of incompetent skippering of U.S. vessels? Of COURSE they'll clean up their act now, and be hyper-cautious in traffic with other vessels, but the dismissal of Mr. Aucoin will have exactly zero to do with that improvement, just as his conduct in command has zero to do with this very odd run of poor seamanship by commanding officers.
1
The officer corps has successfully transitioned from professional mariners to professional managers.
3
May be the problem is right there: the navy is lead by "professional managers" not "professional mariners".
"At his news conference Tuesday, Admiral Swift discounted suggestions that the crew of the McCain had been overworked or underprepared. He said the crew responded quickly after the collision, righted the ship and prevented an even bigger disaster.
Discounted? Of course, since to do otherwise would lay the responsibility at the desks of senior leadership. Can't have that happen.
Do Sailors and Marines make it happen in a crisis of life and death? Yes, even after 22 hour days and dead on their feet.
"I was on the McCain this morning and looking at the eyes of those sailors, and even after their heroic efforts yesterday I didn’t see exhaustion,” he said. “I didn’t see a crew that was taking a knee, so to speak. They are on their game.”
The Admiral is either blind, in denial, or a fool.
Perhaps Admiral Swift should be the next one to be relieved.
Discounted? Of course, since to do otherwise would lay the responsibility at the desks of senior leadership. Can't have that happen.
Do Sailors and Marines make it happen in a crisis of life and death? Yes, even after 22 hour days and dead on their feet.
"I was on the McCain this morning and looking at the eyes of those sailors, and even after their heroic efforts yesterday I didn’t see exhaustion,” he said. “I didn’t see a crew that was taking a knee, so to speak. They are on their game.”
The Admiral is either blind, in denial, or a fool.
Perhaps Admiral Swift should be the next one to be relieved.
"At his news conference Tuesday, Admiral Swift discounted suggestions that the crew of the McCain had been overworked or underprepared. He said the crew responded quickly after the collision, righted the ship and prevented an even bigger disaster.
Discounted? Of course, since to do otherwise would lay the responsibility at the desks of senior leadership. Can't have that happen.
Do Sailors and Marines make it happen in a crisis of life and death? Yes, even after 22 hour days and dead on their feet.
"I was on the McCain this morning and looking at the eyes of those sailors, and even after their heroic efforts yesterday I didn’t see exhaustion,” he said. “I didn’t see a crew that was taking a knee, so to speak. They are on their game.”
The Admiral is either blind, in denial, or a fool. Perhaps Admiral Swift should be the next one to be relieved.
Discounted? Of course, since to do otherwise would lay the responsibility at the desks of senior leadership. Can't have that happen.
Do Sailors and Marines make it happen in a crisis of life and death? Yes, even after 22 hour days and dead on their feet.
"I was on the McCain this morning and looking at the eyes of those sailors, and even after their heroic efforts yesterday I didn’t see exhaustion,” he said. “I didn’t see a crew that was taking a knee, so to speak. They are on their game.”
The Admiral is either blind, in denial, or a fool. Perhaps Admiral Swift should be the next one to be relieved.
2
As it was in 1817, the same it should be in 2017, on any boat or ship, eyes and ears are an integral element in collision avoidance. If you doubt the simplicity of this statement you've never been at sea.
3
Cyber attack on navigation systems. No other plausible explanation.
3
Of course the people in charge of the Seventh Fleet have responsibility for these collisions. Of course there's a lot to gain from some focused training. Of course it's sad, and bad, that people have been lost.
When bad things happen on admirals' and generals' watches, they are responsible. That's what the job means.
Still, this question must be asked: Is the law of small numbers making everybody think there's a systematic pattern of navigation mistakes where there actually isn't one? Is it possible this confluence of collisions is due, at least partly, to random chance?
Personally, I don't know the answer to my question. Still, I trust the investigators will consider it before blaming midlevel officers and enlisted people.
When bad things happen on admirals' and generals' watches, they are responsible. That's what the job means.
Still, this question must be asked: Is the law of small numbers making everybody think there's a systematic pattern of navigation mistakes where there actually isn't one? Is it possible this confluence of collisions is due, at least partly, to random chance?
Personally, I don't know the answer to my question. Still, I trust the investigators will consider it before blaming midlevel officers and enlisted people.
2
I'm 73 years old and have spent years at sea in a variety of vessels. It is really not that hard to figure out.
Constant bearing decreasing range = collision. Every time this simple rule is overlooked a collision will likely occur. No matter how long you have been in the navy!!
Constant bearing decreasing range = collision. Every time this simple rule is overlooked a collision will likely occur. No matter how long you have been in the navy!!
9
The real cause of these accidents lies in the structure and training of the surface navy. Our navy simply does not train officers in the sort of advanced navigation necessary to operate safely in waters with a lot of ships. Junior officers are not allowed to make small mistakes and exercise independent judgment. Instead they are micromanaged by Captains who themselves were never adequately trained. Navigation is not just dependent on electronics. It also involves visual lookouts, and many other non-electronic means of navigating and keeping adequate separation between ships. Unless the destroyer was a vessel NUC (i.e. dead in the water) I'm afraid it's difficult not to conclude that in this instance there was a failure of basic seamanship. It is interesting to note that both ship’s Captain were not called for a steady closing range and bearing target and no action was taken until collision.
Bridge team management skills are severely lacking. Surface warfare officers need to develop a basic understanding of handling a ship at sea along with taking their heads out of the screens. If a billion dollar warship cannot avoid a large and slow merchant vessel, God help us if it is missiles, RHIBs and drones.
The Navy has to get back to the fundamentals of safe navigation and a complete understanding of the Rules of the Road, but that is unlikely. While most of the navy is very healthy, the surface force has suffered for many, many years under a lack of leadership.
Bridge team management skills are severely lacking. Surface warfare officers need to develop a basic understanding of handling a ship at sea along with taking their heads out of the screens. If a billion dollar warship cannot avoid a large and slow merchant vessel, God help us if it is missiles, RHIBs and drones.
The Navy has to get back to the fundamentals of safe navigation and a complete understanding of the Rules of the Road, but that is unlikely. While most of the navy is very healthy, the surface force has suffered for many, many years under a lack of leadership.
5
Naval ships colliding with merchant ships at frequent intervals,and getting damaged,is unheard of. it is not only the US Navy,but navies of other nations also. Recently,a submarine of a nation was also got stuck near the shore. it is like an armoured vehicle of the Army,colliding with a civilian car,and the civilian car does not get damaged,but the armoured vehicle. The civilian car will get damaged on the road,and not the armoured vehicle. It is unfortunate that some sailors have been killed,and it is a big loss for their families. In these days of electronics,with ships with satellite communications,collisions between two ships can take a toll of human lives. All efforts have to be made to prevent such unfortunate incidents. Seas can become rough anytime. Grounding of operations for a day ,is also a drastic step,and it is a surprise.
These collisions appear to be as a result of poor seamanship and faulty leadership. While it is just a token gesture to relieve the Seventh Fleet Commander because he was slated to retire, the relief of subordinate commanders will be more significant. The fact remains that there are only so many training hours in a day. When many of those available hours are being consumed by "political correctness" training not related to seamanship, the result will be more failures in real time. The military is not, nor should it be, a social science laboratory. The sooner leaders recognize this fact and return to training for war, the sooner incidents such as these will end.
1
"At his news conference Tuesday, Admiral Swift discounted suggestions that the crew of the McCain had been overworked or underprepared. He said the crew responded quickly after the collision, righted the ship and prevented an even bigger disaster.”
Discounted? Of course, since to do otherwise would lay the responsibility at the desks of senior leadership. Can't have that happen.
Do Sailors and Marines make it happen in a crisis of life and death? Yes, even after 22 hour days and dead on their feet.
"I was on the McCain this morning and looking at the eyes of those sailors, and even after their heroic efforts yesterday I didn’t see exhaustion,” he said. “I didn’t see a crew that was taking a knee, so to speak. They are on their game.”
The Admiral is either blind, in denial, or a fool. Perhaps Admiral Swift should be the next one to be relieved.
Discounted? Of course, since to do otherwise would lay the responsibility at the desks of senior leadership. Can't have that happen.
Do Sailors and Marines make it happen in a crisis of life and death? Yes, even after 22 hour days and dead on their feet.
"I was on the McCain this morning and looking at the eyes of those sailors, and even after their heroic efforts yesterday I didn’t see exhaustion,” he said. “I didn’t see a crew that was taking a knee, so to speak. They are on their game.”
The Admiral is either blind, in denial, or a fool. Perhaps Admiral Swift should be the next one to be relieved.
Glad to see the Vice Admiral was removed before we might have actually needed his services in any form of naval conflict.. Hope he can drive his motor vehicle a little better than he does directing naval traffic.
He should find a high place somewhere in Trump's White House however.
He should find a high place somewhere in Trump's White House however.
Godspeed to all lost. And, to the parents, husbands/wives, children and loved ones of those lost, I wish you courage in the days ahead.
2
I cannot for the life of me fathom how it is possible that the captains of US navy frontline combat ships have the same or worse competence than the captain of the Exxon Valdez. It is profoundly disturbing and upsetting. It should never happen once ever. The captain of the ship is responsible, period. When any other vessel is detected he/she MUST be on the bridge and carefully supervise the maneuvers required to avoid the potential for collision. The idea that these modern day destroyers don't have the necessary detection equipment to locate other large ships would seem to make a mockery of their entire arsenal and mission notwithstanding the old binoculars.
The captains, and captains alone should be held criminally responsible. Their conduct is indefensible.
The captains, and captains alone should be held criminally responsible. Their conduct is indefensible.
1
This was in one of the busiest seaways in the world. If the captain has to be on the bridge 24 hours a day, there's a training issue for the deck officers who are standing OOD watches.
Yes. Did both Captains and the XO relay to the Bridge even by body language and emotional messaging I am going to bed and you better have a good reason to wake me up or your assets are mine. I served in two of the military branches and the gulf between Naval officers With their cloth and china mess, and the worker bees enlisted folks was far more pronounced in the Navy. Maybe the senior enlisted ranks need authority for the responsibility they seem to have been delegated with.
1
Nonsense. The captain is responsible. He can set a distance that wakes him up that provides time for him to take responsibility and employ critical decision making.
All of these disasters are very sad and very expensive. it is very costly to replace these ships and the loss of life of trained navy is irreparable. We are too computer dependent risk the hacking problem and it all leaves us too vulnerable. These are young men and we feel for their sorrowful families.
Both recent collisions occurred while entering, at night, one of the busiest harbors in the world. Might it not be advisable to manage such dense traffic the way commercial airports manage airliners. That is with land based controllers who know, by radar and other means, exactly where each ship is, what their speed and heading is, and with the ability to communicate with their bridges. It's also possible these situations are so fraught with peril that night entrances are to be avoided unless absolutely necessary.
3
Lets not force skippers to maneuver warships more predictably.
At a time like this, we can all be thankful the President honored these sailors and all who served with them, seeking to soothe our troubled nation and bring us together in a spirit of community.
In my dreams, that is.
In my dreams, that is.
1
It is difficult to fathom or believe that these "accidents" were all caused by incompetent seamanship alone, either by sailors on our navy ships or on the freighters. Could it be that there is intentional sabotage in place or that a foreign country has discovered how to infiltrate the electronic systems of the navy ships (or the freighters) to cause these collisions. After all, if we can pilot drones in Iraq or other war zones with pilots working on computers in the USA, why could not some form of electronic sabotage be in place here?
2
Conning a large vessel in restricted waters is always a challenge regardless of all the electronic aids to navigation that are available today. Even highly maneuverable ships such as destroyers will set special sea details, augmenting their bridge crews with extra lookouts, combat information center watch standers, and the like upon entering restricted waters-- at least that was the practice in the past, when I served as an Officer of the Deck, underway. We don't know what happened with USS McCain other than the collision occurred on her port quarter and that the damage control efforts of her crew were heroic, just as in the other recent collision (USS Fitzgerald). It is wise that the Navy is suspending operations to review basic ship-handling procedures given the number of recent collisions that have tragecially cost the lives of so many sailors. It would also be a good idea to gather and disseminate the lessons learned from these collisions to the fleet about effective damage control.
2
Lets hope the navy gets a clear understanding of the reasons for the collisions, whether they could be avoided and what changes are necessary.
1
How can we spend over $700 billion for the "War Department" and mismanage these expensive and sophisticated assets? If it is poor training it's an indictment of both the military and Congress who refuse to spend money on our greatest asset, people, including veterans, while rewarding the defense contractors in their districts. Sad.
Even in my day - the late 50s -- lookouts were required by policy, but thought not crucial because we had radar. In today's technology, lookouts are probably thought to be even less necessary. Given the high stakes, this must change.
The US Navy has been a pain in Merchant Shippings preverbal bottom for as long as I can remember, (if it’s grey, then stay away) is a saying in the merchant marine industry for a reason.
The main cause of maritime collisions is lack of communication and the US Naval vessels have made a concerted effort to not communicate their intentions unless it is to tell you what they are going to do to you. They do not follow basic navigational rules and standards, i.e. they turn off their AIS, an automatic identification system is an automatic tracking system used for collision avoidance on ships and by vessel traffic services (VTS). The vessels block RADAR signals to appear smaller than they should are on our RADAR screens. They often maneuver at night without running lights. Just to name a few of their tactics.
The Navy say’s this is to prevent terrorist from identifying and attacking them. I understand their concerns, but it makes it exceedingly difficult to operate in close quarters with this type of poor seamanship.
So what to do? When the Navy wants to put a Captain or XO in charge of a vessel, part of their training could be to spend a year on a merchant vessel entering busy ports. Or to put experienced US Merchant Masters on the bridge to assist, much like we require merchant vessels to take on a pilot prior to entering a congested harbor.
This will not prevent all collisions, but it would go along way towards doing so.
The main cause of maritime collisions is lack of communication and the US Naval vessels have made a concerted effort to not communicate their intentions unless it is to tell you what they are going to do to you. They do not follow basic navigational rules and standards, i.e. they turn off their AIS, an automatic identification system is an automatic tracking system used for collision avoidance on ships and by vessel traffic services (VTS). The vessels block RADAR signals to appear smaller than they should are on our RADAR screens. They often maneuver at night without running lights. Just to name a few of their tactics.
The Navy say’s this is to prevent terrorist from identifying and attacking them. I understand their concerns, but it makes it exceedingly difficult to operate in close quarters with this type of poor seamanship.
So what to do? When the Navy wants to put a Captain or XO in charge of a vessel, part of their training could be to spend a year on a merchant vessel entering busy ports. Or to put experienced US Merchant Masters on the bridge to assist, much like we require merchant vessels to take on a pilot prior to entering a congested harbor.
This will not prevent all collisions, but it would go along way towards doing so.
3
When will the Navy learn that there is night illusion at sea not just in airplanes. Sailors need to be trained about this phenomenon.
The last 2 collisions were with non military vessels with their own sophisticated navigation equipment. If the navy wasn't hacked, perhaps they were.
In a world where hacking is becoming the latest weapon, why would the navy be immune?
Perhaps the auto companies should rethink driverless cars if ships using the same systems are failing to avoid accidents for whatever reason.
In a world where hacking is becoming the latest weapon, why would the navy be immune?
Perhaps the auto companies should rethink driverless cars if ships using the same systems are failing to avoid accidents for whatever reason.
1
I agree with your suggestion but always fall back to the fact that good seamanship ought to be able to overcome a navigational emergency. My dad was a destroyer skipper (twice, plus a whole squadron) and I'd love for it to be nobody's fault, but unless incapacitated, the bridge should have been able to handle what came their way.
Even without all the advanced technology currently on Naval and commercial ships, how these collisions can happen is confusing.
In these most recent incidents it appears that neither of the Navy ships nor the commercial ships had any visual contact with the other. All four ships also failed to hail each other even though each is the size of a small city.
The commercial ships are moving at 20 knots on average (about 23 mph). While that represents immense energy in case of a collision...it is incredibly slow on the ocean and gives anyone at the helm ample time to see and contact the other ship.
It boggles the mind to think that ship captains on both sides can be so lax at their jobs.
In these most recent incidents it appears that neither of the Navy ships nor the commercial ships had any visual contact with the other. All four ships also failed to hail each other even though each is the size of a small city.
The commercial ships are moving at 20 knots on average (about 23 mph). While that represents immense energy in case of a collision...it is incredibly slow on the ocean and gives anyone at the helm ample time to see and contact the other ship.
It boggles the mind to think that ship captains on both sides can be so lax at their jobs.
Check to see how tired the Port Side bridge wing lookout was at the time of the collision. I remember the lookouts were standing watch in the wee hours after working a full 10-12 hours shifts. Sleep deprivation must factor into the crew's performance. The real culprits would be in the Combat Information Center where all the electronics which are the 'eyes' of the ship with radar equipment which has the capacity to 'see' aircraft beyond the horizon but miss a 900 ft.long cargo ship as it bears down toward a collision.
We need to be sure we are taking into consideration the possibility that the computers operating ships at sea are not being hacked.
Is this being done?
I grieve for the parents of the sailors who have died.
In addition, these injuries to our fleets cannot be ignored.
It may be our forces, and it may be others.
Is this being done?
I grieve for the parents of the sailors who have died.
In addition, these injuries to our fleets cannot be ignored.
It may be our forces, and it may be others.
All the radars and sensors and computers in the world are of no use, if nobody is paying attention to them.
Swatting at mosquitoes rather than cleaning out the swamp. Talking to an MD friend tonight.
Chilling. Neurologists are seeing children as young as 3 (one, two, three) with seizures. The cause?
Technology; the same causative factor in these 'mistakes'. Over-reliance on technology. As a nation, as a society, we are addicted to/wedded to our devices. No longer eyes and ears on the decks of ships "keeping watch".
When historians look back on this period in American and world history, I have a hunch they will find a link between the demise of civilization connected to the onslaught of technology.
Where have our critical thinking skills gone? Where is our sense of the common good; one for all and all for one?
My heart goes out, in particular, for the economically disadvantaged. While the next decade or so won't be a cakewalk for those with an economic buffer,,, at the bottom, life will be short and brutal - no matter what your political allegiances/alliances/associations might be.
Chilling. Neurologists are seeing children as young as 3 (one, two, three) with seizures. The cause?
Technology; the same causative factor in these 'mistakes'. Over-reliance on technology. As a nation, as a society, we are addicted to/wedded to our devices. No longer eyes and ears on the decks of ships "keeping watch".
When historians look back on this period in American and world history, I have a hunch they will find a link between the demise of civilization connected to the onslaught of technology.
Where have our critical thinking skills gone? Where is our sense of the common good; one for all and all for one?
My heart goes out, in particular, for the economically disadvantaged. While the next decade or so won't be a cakewalk for those with an economic buffer,,, at the bottom, life will be short and brutal - no matter what your political allegiances/alliances/associations might be.
>
Unfortunately, ERIC SCHMITT and RICHARD C. PADDOCK have missed the bigger story here and it goes way beyond any one Admiral's removal or tanker collisions.
Problem: Comparatively inexpensive modern anti-ship missile technology has left our expensive Navy ships sitting ducks in the upcoming naval battles.
I don't have time to do your jobs but here are a few bread crumbs that should show you the way:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/12/washington/12navy.html
http://www.rense.com/general59/thesunburniransawesome.htm
These are the questions that the USN Command should have to answer.
The Russians, Iranians and the Chinese aren't going to try to out build us in Navy ships, they're going to sink them.
Wakeup, the coffee is ready.
Illusions carry the day, until reality shows up.
Unfortunately, ERIC SCHMITT and RICHARD C. PADDOCK have missed the bigger story here and it goes way beyond any one Admiral's removal or tanker collisions.
Problem: Comparatively inexpensive modern anti-ship missile technology has left our expensive Navy ships sitting ducks in the upcoming naval battles.
I don't have time to do your jobs but here are a few bread crumbs that should show you the way:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/12/washington/12navy.html
http://www.rense.com/general59/thesunburniransawesome.htm
These are the questions that the USN Command should have to answer.
The Russians, Iranians and the Chinese aren't going to try to out build us in Navy ships, they're going to sink them.
Wakeup, the coffee is ready.
Illusions carry the day, until reality shows up.
1
Reputably able to automatically detect (and destroy) an incoming cruise missiles flying at the speed of sound but cannot automatically detect an oil tanker approaching at driving speed. The logic doesn't add up.
You have to let top people go when the basic standards of military operations are ignored. If the shipping community has to be stopped from computer-steered ships, that's one thing. But basic seamanship demands that you do whatever you have to do in order to maintain the ship in order.
I am sure that electronic interference by the Chinese military is also being looked into. They've been working on such things for decades.
I am sure that electronic interference by the Chinese military is also being looked into. They've been working on such things for decades.
The US Navy upholds a fundamental principle of leadership.
IF you're a top commander in charge of people/armaments and make an egregious mistake, you're immediately relieved from duty and replaced.
What IF the same principle is applied to the Office of the Presidency?
IF you're a top commander in charge of people/armaments and make an egregious mistake, you're immediately relieved from duty and replaced.
What IF the same principle is applied to the Office of the Presidency?
3
Obama would have been gone as soon as ISIS started rolling.
Despite contradicting claims, I'd still consider a cyber-attack as a very real possibility. After our disastrous November election, it's clear Russia is willing and able to disrupt American electronics at a very basic level, and this is exactly the kind of attack Putin would favor--effective but virtually untraceable. I seriously doubt a single break in our chain of command would create a repeat of this kind of tragic situation, but disrupting electronic navigation systems would.
Malacca Straits is very congested but that is no excuse.
These are ships of war.
If they repeatedly run into merchant ships they don't see, how do they identify, target and evade enemy ships during hostilities?
When a lookout in a crow's nest can do better than the hundreds of millions of dollars of electronics and the specialists we put on our ships, someone better recognize there is a very big problem.
How is it possible this could happen to multiple US naval ships in a few months? This is our global powerhouse of a navy? Don't just remove one fall guy. They need to do a complete housecleaning of Naval leaders, including those responsible for outfitting our navy with ships that apparently can't even see enormous merchant ships in their path.
The nature and extent of the problem is almost unimaginable. We are the "electronics battlefield" experts? And this shameful disaster is what we come up with? How can ships full of American naval sailors be subject to such slipshod protection and navigation? And how can they be expected to protect us and themselves during hostilities?
If there is no as yet planned criminal prosecution of those responsible, there should be. Why should American sailors die for the incompetence of their naval leadership?
If they repeatedly run into merchant ships they don't see, how do they identify, target and evade enemy ships during hostilities?
When a lookout in a crow's nest can do better than the hundreds of millions of dollars of electronics and the specialists we put on our ships, someone better recognize there is a very big problem.
How is it possible this could happen to multiple US naval ships in a few months? This is our global powerhouse of a navy? Don't just remove one fall guy. They need to do a complete housecleaning of Naval leaders, including those responsible for outfitting our navy with ships that apparently can't even see enormous merchant ships in their path.
The nature and extent of the problem is almost unimaginable. We are the "electronics battlefield" experts? And this shameful disaster is what we come up with? How can ships full of American naval sailors be subject to such slipshod protection and navigation? And how can they be expected to protect us and themselves during hostilities?
If there is no as yet planned criminal prosecution of those responsible, there should be. Why should American sailors die for the incompetence of their naval leadership?
1
In addition to radar and sonar, all large and many small ships and boats use the Automatic Identification System to monitor traffic and to report their position. For example, from the comfort of my basement office, I see that the ALNIC MC, the ship that collided with the McCain, is at 1.32091 degrees N latitude and 104.07118 E longitude as of Aug 23, 2017 at 02:46 UTC. Even for small craft, such as sailing yachts, an AIS monitor will predict and alert the crew to an impending collision well before it happens. Because AIS tracks the location and path of ships collaborating in the system, military ships receive AIS information but do not transmit information. Therefore, regarding AIS, the McCain was invisible to the ALNIC MC but not vice versa. Since the McCain was struck on the port side, it was probably to starboard of the ALNIC MC, and therefore technically had the right-of-way. It is inconceivable that the McCain would have insisted on the right-of-way in a narrow channel when tangling with a relatively un-maneuverable tanker. The AIS provides a means to contact other ships when a collision is predicted. Both crews will undoubtedly be found at fault, but surely the opprobrium will be on the crew of the McCain.
And what if a malefactor has learned how to execute a localized "spoofing" of AIS signals? A system, or a crew, depending on AIS integrity would be rendered electronically blind in that eye.
Too much playing around... too many drugs? WHAT is going on here.. And btw using a GPS (ToMTOM) device in France to get places-- I can assure you that automatic systems are far from perfect. Also loved it when the warning system in the car went off w/o warning when I was driving on the freeway with almost nothing around. One can only depend so much on the various devices.
TIME TO BRING BACK THE DRAFT. I am afraid that the self-selected persons who join up are far from the best and especially the brightest!!!
TIME TO BRING BACK THE DRAFT. I am afraid that the self-selected persons who join up are far from the best and especially the brightest!!!
Unfortunately, it has always been easier to fire the boss instead of finding the root cause of disasters. Read the history books................
Four ships in Asian waters, each with missile systems that could aim at the Korean Peninsula? All in odd collisions? All at heightened stress with North Korea, China? Sounds like a thriller plot. Look, investigators.
I continue to maintain that both of the recent collisions are the result of cyber-
mechanisms for hacking into our military systems that our country's much vaunted cyber-security experts are too feckless to detect much less counter-attack.
mechanisms for hacking into our military systems that our country's much vaunted cyber-security experts are too feckless to detect much less counter-attack.
Why wasn't he fired after the second collision?
Will he get his full pension anyway?
Will he get his full pension anyway?
Not mentioned is the reliability of whatever "radar" technology that is used. How close does another ship have to be before all kinds of signals start loudly going off?
These collisions are tragic, my heartfelt condolences to the families but I think it would be wiser to wait until the investigation of these collisions are completed.
Navy combat ships are agile and well equipped to avoid collisions with much slower, and much less agile freighters.
It could be that these international shipping lanes are becoming too crowded to safely navigate. Ships do not stop or accelerate or turn in a responsive fashion because they are in water.
Also, Each ship is its own water traffic control system. Because of the lack of agility in water the "bubble" around a ship is huge and narrow straits may have reached an impossible number of bubbles to operate safely. It is terrifying to navigate these straits as world freight ship movements continue to increase as the demand for goods, fuel, bulk materials increase to satisfy the demands of a global growing population.
I hope the investigators have situational space vantage photos of the straits at the time of the collision. This may be beyond human error. It may be a systems failure or a navigational impossibility.
Navy combat ships are agile and well equipped to avoid collisions with much slower, and much less agile freighters.
It could be that these international shipping lanes are becoming too crowded to safely navigate. Ships do not stop or accelerate or turn in a responsive fashion because they are in water.
Also, Each ship is its own water traffic control system. Because of the lack of agility in water the "bubble" around a ship is huge and narrow straits may have reached an impossible number of bubbles to operate safely. It is terrifying to navigate these straits as world freight ship movements continue to increase as the demand for goods, fuel, bulk materials increase to satisfy the demands of a global growing population.
I hope the investigators have situational space vantage photos of the straits at the time of the collision. This may be beyond human error. It may be a systems failure or a navigational impossibility.
30
I don't agree. If things are that crowded as it may be steaming in and or out of a busy port measures are taken so that the ship is not damaged or worse. Those measures are the sole responsibility of the captain.
Dan,
Remember where conditions are really tight in Ports and Rivers a "pilot" comes aboard to take command. But in busy straits like Gibraltar there are designated "lanes" for navigating the strait. I don't think the Strait in question had "implemented" lanes for shipping, but I also don't know. I think we just have to wait until the investigation is complete.
Remember where conditions are really tight in Ports and Rivers a "pilot" comes aboard to take command. But in busy straits like Gibraltar there are designated "lanes" for navigating the strait. I don't think the Strait in question had "implemented" lanes for shipping, but I also don't know. I think we just have to wait until the investigation is complete.
1
I just don't understand how a billion dollar warship, bristling with the latest high tech surveillance equipment available, can't see a tanker about to hit it- twice.
Why are we wasting so much money on these ships when our enemies can just destroy them with a common freighter on autopilot.
Why are we wasting so much money on these ships when our enemies can just destroy them with a common freighter on autopilot.
55
The McCain was hit in the side. That means it crossed directly in the path of the other ship. Even if the other ship was on autopilot it would presunably have been going in a straight path, not veering and wandering.
So if the other ship is going in a predictable path, how do yoy cross right ib front of it, across where it's headed?
Something doesn't make sense about any of this.
So if the other ship is going in a predictable path, how do yoy cross right ib front of it, across where it's headed?
Something doesn't make sense about any of this.
54
The Mccain was hit on the port quarter., rammed by the tanker. The international rules of the road are clear on this. It was the tanker's responsibility to avoid collision by turning to starboard to pass under the stern (that is, behind) the destroyer. That the tanker uses auto pilot is beside the point.
Not necessarily, in fact probably not. The collision happened at 5:24am. McCain probably had an 0800 arrival time at Changi. I've been in that situation, right there, a number of times: arrive early to insure a cushion, then slow to make your arrival time. But that means that other traffic is overtaking you from behind. In this case, assuming McCain wasn't transmitting on AIS, she visually would have looked like a small fishing boat (one white light, in this case her sternlight). The merchant tanker would rightly have "assumed" that a ship would be broadcasting on AIS.
What may have happened is that when the bridge watch on McCain realized they were about to be rammed from behind, they tried to execute an emergency turn to port to get out of the way, thus exposing their port quarter ... which is where they were struck.
What may have happened is that when the bridge watch on McCain realized they were about to be rammed from behind, they tried to execute an emergency turn to port to get out of the way, thus exposing their port quarter ... which is where they were struck.
It's not that simple. The strait of Malacca is like route 66 in DC during rush hour. Also, ships, even smaller destroyers, can't turn like cars. They need hundreds of meters to execute a turn,
Former CVN Officer of the Deck.
Former CVN Officer of the Deck.
Fighting capability and training is one thing, but apparently there is a basic deficiency in seamanship.
How embarrassing for the world's most powerful navy.
How embarrassing for the world's most powerful navy.
26
Removing Adm. Aucoin is the right move. The failure of the command structures of the ships in the 7th fleet that allowed these collisions to occur is truly troubling. It does seem like the negligence of those in command on board those ships in downright criminal with the death of American sailors they had a duty to.
Maybe instead of just drumming them out, time in prison might be appropriate.
By the multiple collisions, it seems that the 7th fleet was beyond lax in keeping those officers working according to established procedures and regulations.
With the "Fat Leonard" scandal, the command of 7th seems to go between incompetence and corruption. They are becoming not the premier forward force but a black mark upon the Navy, and the US as a whole.
Maybe instead of just drumming them out, time in prison might be appropriate.
By the multiple collisions, it seems that the 7th fleet was beyond lax in keeping those officers working according to established procedures and regulations.
With the "Fat Leonard" scandal, the command of 7th seems to go between incompetence and corruption. They are becoming not the premier forward force but a black mark upon the Navy, and the US as a whole.
18
But how do we know whether Adm. Aucoin is simply being scapegoated?
It will be interesting to learn what deficiencies, if any, he has manifest.
It is possible that we are seeing a rush-to-judgment.
It will be interesting to learn what deficiencies, if any, he has manifest.
It is possible that we are seeing a rush-to-judgment.
1
The "Fat Leonard" scandal was very upsetting to read about. I was thinking about that too today. I hope those involved receive appropriate punishment for facilitating theft from the taxpayers. The loss of life in these two recent collisions is tragic - hard to understand how it could happen. It looks like the Navy has its cleanup work to do.
I am not of the U.S. Navy. But I admire their service greatly. For they must endure months of boredom for seconds of terror and reaction to it.
Bless them all, for they are the least acknowledged of the services, excepting the fliers.
Bless them all, for they are the least acknowledged of the services, excepting the fliers.
21
When I was in the navy, a long time ago, I worked so hard, had so much responsibility thrust on me at a tender age, and dealt with hazardous duties so continually, that I was rarely bored. Scared, exhausted, angry, cynical, yes, but bored? Hardly.
And I was a navy flier. Good lord, what does this mean for being unacknowledged?
And I was a navy flier. Good lord, what does this mean for being unacknowledged?
I was sent to the Culver Military Academy's Summer Naval School in 1953. I learned that the boat/ship to 'your' Starboard had the right-of-way. What I am unable to fathom (beg your pardon) is how ships with so much technical devices, personnel and unknown security could possibly... ever... find it self in/on a collision course with another vessel and NOT AVOID A COLLISION. And, the number of US NAVY ships involved in collisions in the past few months is
really beyond comprehension. Come on NAVY!
Get it together!
really beyond comprehension. Come on NAVY!
Get it together!
36
Although it's true that you always yield the right of way to the ship to starboard, the only rule that matters is that right-of-way is always yielded, never taken. If another vessel maintains constant bearing and decreasing range despite being to port, you have to change course before you get "in extremis." And it is well to remember that tankers rarely change course or speed because their enormous inertia imposes a meaningful cost. Navy ships today are powered by jet engines using JP5, not boilers using sludgy #6 fuel oil, and they can accelerate on a dime. It's really bizarre that they should collide with a merchant vessel.
The article makes it sound like ADM Aucoin was ROAD: Retired, On Active Duty.
7
A very embarrassing time for the United States Navy. What can one think after four deadly accidents? Where were all the able seamen? On their IPhones instead of on their respective watches? Very painful for all. And a blot on the Pacific Fleet.
15
Yeah that guy should have his destroyer drivers license suspended.
He should have been on the bridge at the time of each of the radical merchant marine attacks on our beautiful destroyers.
Scapegoating the short timer.
Find a Kimmel......
He should have been on the bridge at the time of each of the radical merchant marine attacks on our beautiful destroyers.
Scapegoating the short timer.
Find a Kimmel......
8
Didn't take long for Trump to turn our military into ruble, did it?
15
Seventeen sailors are missing or dead and you can't resist using them
to take political shots. Shame on you!
to take political shots. Shame on you!
1
Ruble not rubble......pretty great pun if intended.......
1
good pun!
The Air Force does well avoiding collisions. Maybe they should be running the Navy.
6
Given the issues USAF has had with ICBM maintenance and staff, they should probably avoid gloating.
This surely would qualify as a 'never' event. Hope they do a risk analysis.
6
The captain goes down with the ship.
7
According to the French, the British navy liked to hang an admiral every now and then “to encourage the others.”
20
That's from a novel. ("Candide")
Further evidence of the 'dead spiral' of the American Empire.
18
I think you mean "death spiral", and sadly I don't disagree.
Potential reasons for the collisions abound.
I have heard, for example, no consideration of the fact that the computers guiding the ships that have collided with American vessels could have been hacked and subject to the control of a hostile power.
Decent human beings are dead.
American Empire? Is that really all you in good conscience can muster?
I have heard, for example, no consideration of the fact that the computers guiding the ships that have collided with American vessels could have been hacked and subject to the control of a hostile power.
Decent human beings are dead.
American Empire? Is that really all you in good conscience can muster?
The best Navy money can buy. As long as they don't have to maneuver around or near anything. I have my doubts about winning world war three if the Navy can't turn left or right.
17
Go Navy! Do not be concerned. We will remove The Apprentice from office in good fashion and soon. These collision problems will be solved and procedures will be tightened to do away them. Go Navy!
7
I don't recall a single mishap during either term of President Obama's presidency. Now the American military in general and the navy in particular have become a dangerous joke. Trump is trying to manuever the world into nuclear war. This collision is further evidence that the war will come soon. Shame. Shame!
Ridiculous to blame Trump. Indicative of the stupidity of his knee-jerk critics, not that there isn't a lot to criticize.
It is about time. Vice Admiral Aucoin has had too much happen under his command. His officers have been lax. It is a res ipsa loquitor case that something is terribly wrong with Seventh Fleet protocols and training. It is an outrage that we have to depend on Royal Malaysian Navy to recover our own poor sailors. He should be forced to take a reduction in rank to two star before he retires.
106
Res ipsa loquitur--you bet. The accidents, presided over by vessel skippers, not the Vice Admiral, speak for themselves. Too bad for Aucoin; he's very unlikely to have committed or failed to commit anything at all that contributed to these screw-ups, but he'll walk the plank. Who SHOULD walk? The CIC.
Is it an "outrage" because you are a bigot, or do you have data that shows that the members of the Royal Malaysian Navy to be inferior to ours?
I haven't seen any instances where they have collided with an oil tanker which, by the way, is gigantic compared to a destroyer.
Get over yourself, no one is to blame here except our own armed forces and you are sorely misguided to malign those that try to help.
I haven't seen any instances where they have collided with an oil tanker which, by the way, is gigantic compared to a destroyer.
Get over yourself, no one is to blame here except our own armed forces and you are sorely misguided to malign those that try to help.
Admiral Aucoin's dismissal is typical Navy scapegoating. Blame an individual for a systematic problem.
Does the Navy no longer have look outs? We apparently have all the sensors we can imagine. Do we not have night vision aids? At the rate we are going perhaps rowing boats in the park pond are our limits of capability. Surely crew awareness is not so bad that basic seamanship is absent?
The needless loss of life is unforgivable. Perhaps we should rely old skills.
The needless loss of life is unforgivable. Perhaps we should rely old skills.
103
God bless these fallen sailors and their loved ones.
22
I know....how about we spend less money replacing US military personnel with ontractors? Contractors are replacing troops by 3:1 in today's "military" (aka long term private contracting project).
Contractors and their employees are expensive. Get rid of some of them and train more sailors to man ships so they can have reasonable shifts and enough sleep.
One thing I wonder -- are cellphones allowed on these ships? Millennials have a tendency to keep their eyes on a screen. More than 1/4 million car accidents caused each year by texting.
Contractors and their employees are expensive. Get rid of some of them and train more sailors to man ships so they can have reasonable shifts and enough sleep.
One thing I wonder -- are cellphones allowed on these ships? Millennials have a tendency to keep their eyes on a screen. More than 1/4 million car accidents caused each year by texting.
25
Wow, and I thought it would be the Chinese navy in the South China Sea, not that formidable merchant fleet that would be putting our ships out of commission.
8
The Navy puts basic ship handling, bridge navigation skills, and experience at sea low on the list of considerations when selecting commanding officers and executive officers for its ships. This inexperience permeates bridge leadership teams.
The number of incidents involving poor bridge navigation skills indicate deficient training and insufficient navigational leadership at the top of many ship command teams.
The number of incidents involving poor bridge navigation skills indicate deficient training and insufficient navigational leadership at the top of many ship command teams.
44
That this is true--and the evidence suggests it is--is mind boggling to me. What standards ARE being applied in the appointment of skippers and execs if not expertise at basic ship handling and navigation?
This ongoing degradation of the United States Military under Trump is completely unacceptable.
34
Chickenhawks should not be Commanderin Chief.
14
These disasters were no more Trump's doing than Benghazi was Hillary's.
Slowly
Surely
Inexorably
The merchant marine is challenging and weakening America sea power.
Had the latest "accidents" been initiated by IsIs or Hillary Clinton,
Dear leader Don would already have fired and furied Belize or Massapequa.
He was ready to sink Iranian vessels if any sailor on board had the audacity to show a medial digit at our beautiful destroyers.
Now our beautiful destroyers are being relentlessly stalked and damaged with sad loss of life.
Yet T-Rex does nothing.........
Surely
Inexorably
The merchant marine is challenging and weakening America sea power.
Had the latest "accidents" been initiated by IsIs or Hillary Clinton,
Dear leader Don would already have fired and furied Belize or Massapequa.
He was ready to sink Iranian vessels if any sailor on board had the audacity to show a medial digit at our beautiful destroyers.
Now our beautiful destroyers are being relentlessly stalked and damaged with sad loss of life.
Yet T-Rex does nothing.........
13
The US Navy ships involved in these accidents are not just any ships. They are multi-billion dollar sensor platforms, specializing in situational awareness. They see the near invisible like ballistic missiles and supersonic cruise missiles and detect lurking submarines.
Yet they still run into large slow moving merchant ships sailing in a straight line, apparently unaware.
This calls into question just how well, how consistently, they can do all that other situational awareness. It seems there is plenty of down time in their awareness, even in dangerous places of complex navigation.
This is not just one guy who messed up. It is not just one bridge team that messed up. We've had four of these recently, including a grounding and hitting a fishing boat.
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Four times? There is something very wrong here.
Yet they still run into large slow moving merchant ships sailing in a straight line, apparently unaware.
This calls into question just how well, how consistently, they can do all that other situational awareness. It seems there is plenty of down time in their awareness, even in dangerous places of complex navigation.
This is not just one guy who messed up. It is not just one bridge team that messed up. We've had four of these recently, including a grounding and hitting a fishing boat.
Once is an accident. Twice is coincidence. Four times? There is something very wrong here.
239
Placing a bet on that there is massive bug in the radar or navigation system that basically causes massive ships to just disappear under the right conditions. I worked for a military contractor for 10+ years, they don't test the systems very well at all. It's all about getting the "acceptance testing" that is basically rigged that both the military and contractor know it is rigged. The contractor wants to get paid and the military wants it's new toys and both look the other way on testing. I couldn't stand it that is why I got out.
55
Yep, you've got it right!
9
Please note, these ships did not "run into large, slow moving merchant ships sailing in a straight line", those ships collided into the Navy ships. The key point might be in how you ended your sentence - "apparently unaware." Those large ships have adequate radar capabilities to sail the world's oceans and maneuver in the most crowded on seaways, they sailed right into the middle part of the Fitzgerald and the McCain! How come?
If these Navy ships are intended for Ballistic Missile Defense, they are bound to have some stealth capabilities, active and passive. Is it possible their signature on a radar screen is so small to be considered insignificant, like the reflection off a wave or buoy, or it somehow throws off the radar off the exact location of the vessel? The folks at the bridge of the Containership or Tanker could have missed the Navy ship because it was virtually invisible on radar and in the dark of night it was a shadowy presence (due to lacking cabin lights and other giveaways) and not the obviously decent sized ship we see in daylight photographs and video.
If these Navy ships are intended for Ballistic Missile Defense, they are bound to have some stealth capabilities, active and passive. Is it possible their signature on a radar screen is so small to be considered insignificant, like the reflection off a wave or buoy, or it somehow throws off the radar off the exact location of the vessel? The folks at the bridge of the Containership or Tanker could have missed the Navy ship because it was virtually invisible on radar and in the dark of night it was a shadowy presence (due to lacking cabin lights and other giveaways) and not the obviously decent sized ship we see in daylight photographs and video.
17
Incidents like this and others involving United States ships and aircraft seem to be more numerous than in the past. The root cause of these horrible tragedies have to be found and eliminated. The look needs to extend beyond the deckplates and clear up to the office of the CNO. The four most recent incidents have occurred on this CNO's watch and he needs to be held to account. How can one be in charge, but not accountable? Well, other than Obama anyway.
11
I knew a sailor on the USS Wasp when it collided with the USS Hobson. The worst peacetime Us Navy collision: https://hubpages.com/education/USS-Wasp-USS-Hobson-Collision-Worst-Peace...
2
Snuck in Obama, didn't you.
10
Give it a rest on Obama. A great President.
Before we go hanging sailors from the yardarms for dereliction of duty, let's find out what exactly happened. Posters here are pretty quick to find fault. Seems to me that some sort of cyber sabotage is not out of the realm of possibility.
19
These accidents have been happening for months and no one seems to have found out "exactly what happened." Doesn't seem like several months is "pretty quick"
10
Is our Navy being targeted by an unfriendly entity? Using "civilian" craft to do us harm? Are they subject to jamming of radar or other systems?
As our bumbling and illiterate CIC continues to bluster and losture towards North Korea, Germany, Australia, Afghanistan, Syria, South America--- our ships are out of service and not available to do their jobs. Why? And his absurd comments on these things makes me wonder if he KNEW that our military was being targeted in some way. He doesn't CARE that those serving died on his watch.
I am not the CT sort but it begins to look very strange.
As our bumbling and illiterate CIC continues to bluster and losture towards North Korea, Germany, Australia, Afghanistan, Syria, South America--- our ships are out of service and not available to do their jobs. Why? And his absurd comments on these things makes me wonder if he KNEW that our military was being targeted in some way. He doesn't CARE that those serving died on his watch.
I am not the CT sort but it begins to look very strange.
7
Hey, this former U.S. Navy Officer of the Deck (albeit 35 years ago and barely qualified at that) has a great idea: why don't all you armchair admirals pipe down, settle down, and let the investigators do their work? Ten young sailors are dead and none of us has the slightest idea why it happened. That is all.
85
Other former deck watch officers are here, friend. You want to wait for the reports? Great. At this rate, it's just a matter of time before the next one happens. If this is a systemic problem (and I believe it is), there's no time to wait for the reports.
34
17 are dead and/or missing
2
Hard to believe these two most recent incidents could have both been the result of human error. More likely either the sailors involved were not following proper procedures or those procedures were too reckless, not safety oriented. One has to wonder if there has been a change in strategy that has led to our navy taking a more aggressive and risky approach. Congress needs to act to find out what really happened. The parents of those dead seamen should demand it. Our Coward in the White House's only response was: "That's too bad!"
The loss of life due to these Navy collisions is so sad - and also something that should not be happening. Instead of immediately screaming they need more money, the Admirals in charge need to take a hard look at how they are using their resources, what kind of training they are providing, and determine why a navy vessel can't see a ship the size of several football fields coming toward them. I would say someone's head should roll way up the chain of command. It would appear they might need to go back to the basics - meaning look out the window instead of at a computer screen.
27
Fascinating. I thought only children spoke like the admiral. To quote: “I was on the McCain this morning and looking at the eyes of those sailors, and even after their heroic efforts yesterday I didn’t see exhaustion,” he said. “I didn’t see a crew that was taking a knee, so to speak. They are on their game.”
What kind of audience wants to be addressed in this manner?
What kind of audience wants to be addressed in this manner?
27
"...80,000 ships a year pass throughat the highly congested entrance to the Singapore and Malacca Straits."
How many of these ships collide with one another?
How many of these ships collide with one another?
12
the navy will declare that they are ALL HEROES!!! Everyone who crashes a missile destroyer into a large, slow moving tanker IS A HERO!! Am I the only american who, after the Fitzgerald, and the Fat Leonard Scandals, thinks that these guys are all lying?
6
Is it possible these ship's systems were maintained by Fat Leonard substandard and fraudulent navy yards?
8
From photos of the damaged hulls, two broadsides suggests that both the McCain and the Fitzgerald sailed across the path of oncoming and slow moving cargo ships. Destroyers should be able to move out of that impending danger in an instant and avoid such a sad loss of life.
17
An 8000 ton ship can't do anything in an instant. Nonsense.
Prayers to all the victims, their families and loved ones. Thank you all for your service.
13
God bless these sailors and their families.
This is a criminal act on part of its officers.
The American government went after engineers on Deepwater Horizon with a hammer to have them plead to a man slaughter charge,
After these repeated incidents, the officers should be court martialled and deprived of their military status and tried in civilian courts on criminal charges.
I hope the military does not boast that the officers were reprimanded with "career ending" reprimands. What nonsense that careers are more important than lives of these sailors.
All officers on board should be reduced to a rank of enlistees and forced to forfeit any pensions and benefits.
They havs brought shame on America and given pleasure to our enemies.
Total incompetence.
The "Mad Dog" secretary if he does not think he should resign which I think he should - at least fire all these Pentagon admirals.
What a disgrace to a great navy of a great nation.
This is a criminal act on part of its officers.
The American government went after engineers on Deepwater Horizon with a hammer to have them plead to a man slaughter charge,
After these repeated incidents, the officers should be court martialled and deprived of their military status and tried in civilian courts on criminal charges.
I hope the military does not boast that the officers were reprimanded with "career ending" reprimands. What nonsense that careers are more important than lives of these sailors.
All officers on board should be reduced to a rank of enlistees and forced to forfeit any pensions and benefits.
They havs brought shame on America and given pleasure to our enemies.
Total incompetence.
The "Mad Dog" secretary if he does not think he should resign which I think he should - at least fire all these Pentagon admirals.
What a disgrace to a great navy of a great nation.
4
Obviously, Neil M, you have never been a deck watch officer on a large ship in crowded waters in the middle of the night. These are highly challenging situations for the best sailors. This isn't like taking a ride on a motor boat in Galveston Bay. Criminal act? Come on, man!
36
It looks like being on watch means not paying attention or being asleep. The Navy has to get a grip on its sailors, for their shipmates sake.
11
I think that, when navigating in a very crowded area, perhaps all hands on deck would be appropriate.
6
Do we get to vote as to whether self-driving cars will be allowed on our streets?
54
Why? We don't get to vote whether you, my gran, or a drunk is driving out on our streets. Pass tests, subject to post event action, same as for people driving.
Self driving cars are a consumer product with years of testing. Read some of the comments here. These are produced by military contractors who are given a pass on testing!
Most of the time tankers and container ships are under the control of autopilots and it is the law of the sea to give them the right of way. For one thing these ships can't turn on a dime like the destroyer. It takes miles for them to stop or make a turn. It makes no sense to me how a modern warship can't see an approaching ship 4 times its size and not stay out of its way. Not only is the destroyer equipped with the latest radar there are watches on the deck scanning the horizon for ships. Something is radically wrong here.
26
No "law of the sea" automatically gives large ships under control of autopilots right of way. In a narrow channel they could have it, but so would the destroyer.
1
"... it is the law of the sea to give them the right of way..."
No, it is not.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navrules/navrules.pdf
No, it is not.
https://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navrules/navrules.pdf
1
All these "accidents" happening one after another. Wouldn't it be horrible if someone in the White House gave Russia our secret codes, enabling hackers to mess us up in all kinds of ways, undermining our confidence in our own military, weakening us in any conflict that might arise. If this were true I think you'd have to call those people "traitors".
16
And they are double-secret-probationing us too - one would think they would use the codes during an actual conflict in order to maintain the element of surprise.
Here they are using them during a routine transit through peaceful waters - clever adversaries these inscrutable ruskies.
Here they are using them during a routine transit through peaceful waters - clever adversaries these inscrutable ruskies.
Million of tax payer dollars going to state of the art equipment and this still happens? It is so sad.
The fact Trump tweeted about a fleet going to North Korea that was actually heading in an opposite direction was also head-scratching.
A Navy vet I know said it is hard to maneuver those huge vessels in heavy sea traffic. But still, three incidents since February...
If this was the Obama administration, Republican legislators would be holding
multiple hearings, one after the other. They'd make a Benghazi out of it.
The fact Trump tweeted about a fleet going to North Korea that was actually heading in an opposite direction was also head-scratching.
A Navy vet I know said it is hard to maneuver those huge vessels in heavy sea traffic. But still, three incidents since February...
If this was the Obama administration, Republican legislators would be holding
multiple hearings, one after the other. They'd make a Benghazi out of it.
104
it was Obama who down sized our miitary
As a merchant marine captain, I am rather in the camp of those with longstanding professional concerns over the quality of seamanship in the US Navy, in contrast to their profound competence in war fighting. Referring to naval vessels, “If it’s gray, run away” is tongue in cheek advice offered new merchant officers, the humor not denying the truth. That said, no one- least of all their superiors- should be too quick to throw the bridge team of the USS John S. McCain under the bus. I have been through the Straits of Malacca and Singapore many times on merchant hulls similar in size and weight to the McCain, and have never once made the transit without having to make an emergency avoidance maneuver away from a much larger ship. In that crowded and at times chaotic passage, a ship often finds itself with no good place to go if the vessel across the traffic lane or alongside loses control or does the unexpected. This has happened to me, although thankfully, so far, I’ve avoided collision. Point being, the collision may not be the fault of the McCain, and one they couldn’t have avoided given the situational risks that must be accepted when making this particular passage. Time will tell. The NYT does a poor job of covering maritime matters: Find active ships officers for opinion and commentary, as US Courts do in Admiralty cases. People with yachting backgrounds in think tanks may be fine seaman within their own specialty, but know little of shipping practice or reality.
387
Thank you for your candor, your professional opinion and experiential background in your comment. Those of us who are not personally knowledgeable in these areas should rely upon yours.
Unfortunately, there would be no issues, if Naval command would have would have undertaken the appropriate review and remedial action after the first collision, this would be a moot point. At this point this is an international embarrassment.
Unfortunately, there would be no issues, if Naval command would have would have undertaken the appropriate review and remedial action after the first collision, this would be a moot point. At this point this is an international embarrassment.
7
Thanks for a well-written, sensible, post.
However, while I understand the challenges of operating in over-crowded waters, don't you think that something is fundamentally wrong when there are 4 collisions in a brief period of time?
Imagine the outcry if a large private (merchant navy) line had the same record. We would have shut them down by now.
Best regards.
However, while I understand the challenges of operating in over-crowded waters, don't you think that something is fundamentally wrong when there are 4 collisions in a brief period of time?
Imagine the outcry if a large private (merchant navy) line had the same record. We would have shut them down by now.
Best regards.
You expressed my thoughts better than I ever could. Thank you. Readers should also remember the McCain was under the guidance of tug boats leading it to harbor. For all we know at this point, the McCain had to slow for a vessel ahead of it that slowed, and the tanker steering to pass behind the McCain hit the back of its port side near the stern. We have to wait to hear what exactly happened. It could easily have been unavoidable in the busy waters of the Straits.
A friend who recently left the Navy after years on forward-deployed ships explained what likely happened: the numerous alarms warning of an impending collision or simply a ship nearby were disabled as the sailors shot the breeze in the wee hours, oblivious. No one alerted the captain of a close-by ship, per procedure. They need to install some video cameras around the ship to keep a much closer eye and revisit the selection and dismissal process.
18
One improvement would be to have changes to ship functions automatically logged and maybe a 48 or 72 hour rolling copy kept compressed & encrypted in a black box similar to the ones they use for fact finding after an aircraft accident. By rolling copy I simply mean that as Storage is required for newer entries that the oldest ones are deleted and compression would prevent someone using a huge number of innocuous events to purge data needed to find the truth.
Just having events logged would at least let command see when alarms are being disabled. There are always some who would rather skate by than do the work, aren't there?
Just having events logged would at least let command see when alarms are being disabled. There are always some who would rather skate by than do the work, aren't there?
12
This is a travesty. How is it possible with on board visual lookouts; radar; all the technology available we have two Navy ships run into other ships. Are people sleeping? Start at the top- with the Admiral in charge and relieve him of duty- and solve this absolute basic part of marine seamanship.
It's one thing to lose a brave Naval person in war- but this- unacceptable.
It's one thing to lose a brave Naval person in war- but this- unacceptable.
16
When men—and women—go down to the sea in ships, they shouldn't have to fear the incompetence of a captain, a crew, or anyone else responsible for the safe running of a ship. An extensive investigation into training, drug use, organization, assignments—everything related to competent and safe practices of our navy should begin immediately. These tragedies must stop.
16
Edit needed: "one or days"
5
Such a tragedy. Condolences hardly seem enough for the families who lost loved ones in this time of relative peace. I am so sorry.
19
Less social experimentation in our military and more training
The Capt of the ship should be court martialed over this.......he should have
been on the bridge with lots of eyes watching,there is no excuse for this.
17 kids dead in two months is unacceptable, the President needs to re-build
our military (after the last 8 years) and do it quickly before more lives are lost
The Capt of the ship should be court martialed over this.......he should have
been on the bridge with lots of eyes watching,there is no excuse for this.
17 kids dead in two months is unacceptable, the President needs to re-build
our military (after the last 8 years) and do it quickly before more lives are lost
10
what "social experimentation" do you refer to?
1
Ships have been running into each other since the advent of navies. Yet you believe Obama is somehow responsible? What about the men and women in charge of the Navy? Might this be a good place to start?
9
The USS Fitzgerald accident happened in the early hours of the morning. No captain, no human being, can be awake and alert 24/7. The captain is provided with a bunk. It is only reasonable that he uses it from time to time.
We need to wait for the investigation of both accidents to learn what actually happened and what needs to be done. Throwing out wild accusations is no way to uncover the real problem.
We need to wait for the investigation of both accidents to learn what actually happened and what needs to be done. Throwing out wild accusations is no way to uncover the real problem.
4
O, hear us when we cry to thee,
For those in peril on the sea.
For those in peril on the sea.
23
There have been 17 deaths of the thousands of U.S military personnel in Iraq fighting against ISIS since 2014 yet in just a few months in 2017 the U.S Navy has lost 17 men to collisions with civilian ships in non military actions and non war circumstances.
This is completely unacceptable and there can be no excuse.
This is completely unacceptable and there can be no excuse.
42
Time for the causes to be fleshed out and solutions to be deployed. Hard to feel confident in a Navy that can't miss a freighter... twice in as many months. Especially a Navy the President can't find to direct to the war he plans to start.
From the commander in chief to the swabee mopping the deck, not much Kim Jung Un needs to worry about. Our ships are the new ocean-going pinballs, swattable by everyone's flipper in the Asian theater. Reminds me of the Maddox and Turner Joy reporting a faux attack in the dead of night during a storm when their radar was inoperable. How's the radar in the 7th Fleet? Ship-shape? Failing that bit of pre-WWII technology, how about a "sharp lookout"? Have they seen the white whale? Tragedy is the lives lost due to this pervasive incompetence. Worse, the dissembling: "Our first priority is to the sailors and their families". Clearly, they missed on that first priority, twice. And, so far missed on the second: "Why?".
From the commander in chief to the swabee mopping the deck, not much Kim Jung Un needs to worry about. Our ships are the new ocean-going pinballs, swattable by everyone's flipper in the Asian theater. Reminds me of the Maddox and Turner Joy reporting a faux attack in the dead of night during a storm when their radar was inoperable. How's the radar in the 7th Fleet? Ship-shape? Failing that bit of pre-WWII technology, how about a "sharp lookout"? Have they seen the white whale? Tragedy is the lives lost due to this pervasive incompetence. Worse, the dissembling: "Our first priority is to the sailors and their families". Clearly, they missed on that first priority, twice. And, so far missed on the second: "Why?".
18
I know little about ships, navigation, and seamanship.
But I CAN recognize instances of gross, and in this case lethal, maladroitness and malpractice!
This is certainly one of them.
But I CAN recognize instances of gross, and in this case lethal, maladroitness and malpractice!
This is certainly one of them.
11
How many more sailors are going to have to die before the Navy turns on the AIS?
It would not have prevented the steering failure but it would have given the Alnic MC a timely warning that McCain was steering into their path and at least given the tanker a chance to avert the collision and loss of life. Not using AIS in port departures/arrivals or transiting straits has always been a stupid, dangerous decision. Now it turns out to be a deadly one.
If the Navy won't revisit this failed policy, the world's ports need to bar U.S. Navy ships sailing without AIS.
It would not have prevented the steering failure but it would have given the Alnic MC a timely warning that McCain was steering into their path and at least given the tanker a chance to avert the collision and loss of life. Not using AIS in port departures/arrivals or transiting straits has always been a stupid, dangerous decision. Now it turns out to be a deadly one.
If the Navy won't revisit this failed policy, the world's ports need to bar U.S. Navy ships sailing without AIS.
10
I'm not sure whether the merchant ship would have enough time. Isn't it _ 10,000's tons. Those things take a long time to maneuver and change speed. The McCain probably had a much better opportunity to avert the collision when this became an "in extremis" situation. If McCain was truly not under command "NUC", and the merchant vessel didn't respond via radio, wouldn't it have been OK to shine a floodlight into the bridge of the merchant vessel to get its attention? It appears that the McCain was hit in its aft section. USS McCain might have ordered all engines to flank speed a minute before the collision and would be entitled to do so while "in extremis". It may have been just enough. Who knows? We'll find out someday,
6
Jesse M., you seem to be assuming that the tanker had crew available to respond yet incapable of seeing the impending collision and responding without the issuance of an automated warning from the US Navy vessel. Heavy vessels underway cannot stop or turn on a dime.
The tanker and the destroyer also needed enough advanced warning to maneuver but in heavy traffic areas there is also a concern about false alarms which could lead to the same kind of reaction that happens with car alarms sounding in parking lots today.
An automated collision warning system within the vessels rather than broadcasted by radio does seem warranted given the risks involved and the heavy cost to life and property but there remains the possibility of false alarms especially in heavy traffic areas and the possibility of unwanted side affects if an alarm causes a distraction from another danger.
The tanker and the destroyer also needed enough advanced warning to maneuver but in heavy traffic areas there is also a concern about false alarms which could lead to the same kind of reaction that happens with car alarms sounding in parking lots today.
An automated collision warning system within the vessels rather than broadcasted by radio does seem warranted given the risks involved and the heavy cost to life and property but there remains the possibility of false alarms especially in heavy traffic areas and the possibility of unwanted side affects if an alarm causes a distraction from another danger.
4
This is so sad. I was on a destroyer back in the day and remember how it was back then, in 1959/60. Can they investigate if the ship's electronics could have been hacked by NK or Russia, to make it look like the ship had no objects near by? I hope they not only do a thorough investigation, but that they provide more ways to verify the ship's position in the waters.
10
Great Eric. Sort a conspiracy theory. Too much Limbaugh and Hannity for you to think logically.
4
I've never listened to or watched Limbaugh or Jones or that other guy. And yet I am still interested in IF some enemy is doing something to our ships or.comms or elections.
Is that CT to you?
Is that CT to you?
5
Notes (3/4): If a CBDR ship comes within 2000 yards of a U.S. Navy ship, the deck watch officer should be out on the bridge wing with binoculars focusing ONLY on the CBDR ship. Someone else should be trying to establish communications with someone on the bridge of the CBDR ship. Someone else should be looking at the radar. Someone else should be in contact with the engine room to notify it that it needs to be prepared for all orders—including the one that would bring the Navy ship to a full stop in an instant.*** The Captain should be on the bridge.
The deck watch officer should only be doing one thing. Staring at the approaching vessel. Staring at it with full knowledge that he/she has every capability, every right, even the DUTY to do ANYTHING to avoid a collision.
The deck watch officer should only be doing one thing. Staring at the approaching vessel. Staring at it with full knowledge that he/she has every capability, every right, even the DUTY to do ANYTHING to avoid a collision.
50
As should the merchant ship. McCain got hit on the port side - indicating non-conclusively that she had right-of-way. Could McCain have sped up? Should the merchant ship have bore off to pass beneath the McCain? We don't know what was in front of the McCain. We don't know what was to the starboard of the merchant vessel. None of us commenting were in CIC on McCain.
7
All true, Wilson1ny. However, this isn't the Mississippi River where ships pass routinely with only a few feet of margin. If a highly maneuverable ship like McCain is in a position where it can't maneuver, isn't that a problem in itself. The more likely scenario is that the merchant ship is the vessel that would have been able to pull off a maneuver to avert the collision.
Granted, we don't know all the circumstances. What we do know, (whether the vessels knew it or not at the time), is that they were in extremis. The ship with superior capability of taking action with the highest probability of success to avert the collision was the McCain. Based on what we know now, can that be a working assumption? I think that it can be.
Granted, we don't know all the circumstances. What we do know, (whether the vessels knew it or not at the time), is that they were in extremis. The ship with superior capability of taking action with the highest probability of success to avert the collision was the McCain. Based on what we know now, can that be a working assumption? I think that it can be.
3
Robert McKew is precise, complete, and accurate. I smell an anti-tradition of command/training/testing failure in the 7th Fleet, maybe all 3 failures. Odds are someone or several people were not "watch" material, some or several sonar/radar techs were asleep, the captain and his officers were negligent in preparing the crew and testing them - no, all of the above.
Admiral is gone, investigations begun.
Courts martial looming on the horizon, matey. Sound the collision warning.
Admiral is gone, investigations begun.
Courts martial looming on the horizon, matey. Sound the collision warning.
Notes (4/4):
*Constant Bearing, Decreasing Range. Vessels in CBDR are ALWAYS in a potential collision situation until one of them maneuvers or does something to make it a non-CBDR situation.
**The legal world uses a latin phrase: "res ipsa loquitor". Loosely translated: "The thing speaks for itself".
***Now there are reports that a steering malfunction occurred aboard the McCain. Does that change anything? Steering malfunctions are not uncommon on ships. A back-up system is in place. But, so what? Why were the ships within 1000 yards of each other? That's the key question, in my opinion. Ships aren't fighter jets. Things take longer. For a US Navy ship, being within 1000 yards of something like a merchant ship is probably equivalent to a US fighter jet being within 10 feet of a large Russian plane. The fighter jet is designed to move instantaneously. Even modern US Navy ships cannot react nearly as quickly.
*Constant Bearing, Decreasing Range. Vessels in CBDR are ALWAYS in a potential collision situation until one of them maneuvers or does something to make it a non-CBDR situation.
**The legal world uses a latin phrase: "res ipsa loquitor". Loosely translated: "The thing speaks for itself".
***Now there are reports that a steering malfunction occurred aboard the McCain. Does that change anything? Steering malfunctions are not uncommon on ships. A back-up system is in place. But, so what? Why were the ships within 1000 yards of each other? That's the key question, in my opinion. Ships aren't fighter jets. Things take longer. For a US Navy ship, being within 1000 yards of something like a merchant ship is probably equivalent to a US fighter jet being within 10 feet of a large Russian plane. The fighter jet is designed to move instantaneously. Even modern US Navy ships cannot react nearly as quickly.
11
Being a naval surface line officer in the 1980's and witnessing first hand the collision between the USS Willamette (AO 180) and the USS Jason, I can tell you first hand the one thing that prevents collisions at sea, is the strict understanding and observing of the Collision Regulations otherwise known in the trade as the 'Rules of the Road'. Its been my observation and feeling having spent the last 35 years of my life on the bridge of a US flag merchant cargo ship that if you do have a collision at sea with another vessel, you have not observed the rules of the road. I think that the folks in the military should look hard at how proficient OOD's and JOOD's, Navigators and CIC Watch Officers know these rules and it should be THE most important part of their boards when they are certified to stand a watch on the bridge of a naval vessel. I am also questioning the fact that if the USCG requires strict observance of sleep/work rules on board US merchant ships to insure personnel with navigation and safety responsibilities are suitably rested to make sound judgements, then why does the US Navy continue to pay little or no attention to rest hours. I know the military is supposed to function at superhuman expectations but modern science continues to support that sleepy people make bad decisions. Never understood for that matter MD residency hours-I really don't want a resident doctor whose been up for 30 hours and is exhausted making medical life or death decisions in an ER!
144
If I remember correctly, there's one situation where the COLREGs you referred to, can be thrown overboard. The "In extremis" situation. Both collisions were "in extremis". situations. There was a point where both ships were permitted to do ANYTHING to avoid the collision
3
I agree but to have gotten into in extremis means that you did not obey the rules in the first place, especially Rule 2 (International)
'Nothing in these rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or the neglect of any precaution which maybe required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case'. In the Willamette/Jason collision off of Hawaii in the mid 80's, the investigating officer (3rd Fleet CDR (Admiral Boyle).) faulted both parties first and foremost for not knowing the Rules of the Road.
'Nothing in these rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of any neglect to comply with these Rules or the neglect of any precaution which maybe required by the ordinary practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case'. In the Willamette/Jason collision off of Hawaii in the mid 80's, the investigating officer (3rd Fleet CDR (Admiral Boyle).) faulted both parties first and foremost for not knowing the Rules of the Road.
1
Thank you for pointing out the obvious and unnecessary risk adherence to tradition, likely going back to the days of sail, our military follows in having overnight watches crewed by less competent often sleep deprived crew.
If action to address that is taken, how likely is it that it will be a bureaucratic over reaction causing other problems though?
During my time we joked that the US Navy had to be a fool proof organization to work as well as it did considering what seemed to be all the idiots manning the command and support structure behind the line officers and crew.
If action to address that is taken, how likely is it that it will be a bureaucratic over reaction causing other problems though?
During my time we joked that the US Navy had to be a fool proof organization to work as well as it did considering what seemed to be all the idiots manning the command and support structure behind the line officers and crew.
3
The loss of our sailors us maddening as it is heartbreaking.
Despite all the comments to the contrary - when a navy as large as that of the United States - a navy that is the singular worldwide presence in every corner of the globe, operating 24 hours a day, 365 days a year - accidents are going to happen.
Lay the blame on whatever system you wish - human or electronic - but to infer that a navy can sail as many nautical miles per day, month, year as that which the United States does without incident is to disregard the odds to the point of fantasy.
Despite all the comments to the contrary - when a navy as large as that of the United States - a navy that is the singular worldwide presence in every corner of the globe, operating 24 hours a day, 365 days a year - accidents are going to happen.
Lay the blame on whatever system you wish - human or electronic - but to infer that a navy can sail as many nautical miles per day, month, year as that which the United States does without incident is to disregard the odds to the point of fantasy.
3
Agreed, overall the US Navy functions very well indeed. And it will uncover whatever caused or contributed to the collision involving the USS John S McCain.
Once again, the ship's captain and all the officers directly involved will see their careers ended. But if the flaw is with any system used by the navy political obstruction of necessary fixes is a danger too, isn't it?
Once again, the ship's captain and all the officers directly involved will see their careers ended. But if the flaw is with any system used by the navy political obstruction of necessary fixes is a danger too, isn't it?
2
The US Navy has a proud, but of course imperfect history. Nevertheless, it is hard not to cringe when our warships crash into merchant vessels, due to failures of basic responsibilities and procedures at sea. If this were happening to the Venezuelan Navy or the Chinese Navy, we might enjoy a laugh at their expense; but for this to happen to the American Navy is an embarrassment and a disgrace.
19
Or, if these accidents had happened while Obama was president, just imagine the outcry of incompetence
15
what a sorry demonstration of incompetence...no wonder we are losing in Afghanistan
5
Note (cont.) To me, it is much easier to believe that a training flaw exists than that two incompetent deck watch officers were on duty on the bridges of the USS Fitzgerald and the USS John McCain. While they were taking in all of the information pouring in from the various high-tech systems, they probably should have been out on the bridge wings with good old-fashioned binoculars.
When a CBDR* ship comes within 4000 yards (2 nautical miles), I think there is only ONE place these deck watch officers should have been. Out on the bridge wing watching the CBDR ship very closely. At some point, extensive investigation reports of these collisions will be available. I'll read them. We don’t have complete information now. But we have enough. The fact that a collision occurred is enough information.**
The collisions simply should not have happened. How much more needs to be known? The rest is details. If I had to guess, there is a crucial training component either missing or is being under-emphasized with U.S. Navy deck watch officers right now. I don’t think there is any way around it.
When a CBDR* ship comes within 4000 yards (2 nautical miles), I think there is only ONE place these deck watch officers should have been. Out on the bridge wing watching the CBDR ship very closely. At some point, extensive investigation reports of these collisions will be available. I'll read them. We don’t have complete information now. But we have enough. The fact that a collision occurred is enough information.**
The collisions simply should not have happened. How much more needs to be known? The rest is details. If I had to guess, there is a crucial training component either missing or is being under-emphasized with U.S. Navy deck watch officers right now. I don’t think there is any way around it.
30
Notes from a Backseat Ship Driver:
A second collision in three months involving a major U.S Navy ship has occurred in the Pacific. Both collisions involved very large merchant vessels with less ability to maneuver than the Navy ships. Both collisions occurred at night. Both collisions resulted in the deaths and injuries of sailors. I am saddened by this, of course. But, most of all I’m dismayed.
It has been over thirty years since I was a deck watch officer. Have things changed so much at sea that it is now much harder for a U.S Navy ship to avoid collisions like this? My guess is no. Have things become much harder for a deck watch officer to focus on the right things? I think the answer is yes.
These ships are equipped with systems we never had! They have GPS, more sophisticated radar systems, and “collision avoidance” systems which deliver accurate and reliable information to the deck watch officer on the bridge.
My guess is that this is precisely the problem.
I think that these technology-based systems probably have deck watch officers spending too much time staring at computer screens and not enough time using the most highly sophisticated “systems” they have available. Their own eyes! The most sophisticated computers on earth-- their own brains! It’s an over-reliance on technology. We'll find out at some point.
A second collision in three months involving a major U.S Navy ship has occurred in the Pacific. Both collisions involved very large merchant vessels with less ability to maneuver than the Navy ships. Both collisions occurred at night. Both collisions resulted in the deaths and injuries of sailors. I am saddened by this, of course. But, most of all I’m dismayed.
It has been over thirty years since I was a deck watch officer. Have things changed so much at sea that it is now much harder for a U.S Navy ship to avoid collisions like this? My guess is no. Have things become much harder for a deck watch officer to focus on the right things? I think the answer is yes.
These ships are equipped with systems we never had! They have GPS, more sophisticated radar systems, and “collision avoidance” systems which deliver accurate and reliable information to the deck watch officer on the bridge.
My guess is that this is precisely the problem.
I think that these technology-based systems probably have deck watch officers spending too much time staring at computer screens and not enough time using the most highly sophisticated “systems” they have available. Their own eyes! The most sophisticated computers on earth-- their own brains! It’s an over-reliance on technology. We'll find out at some point.
189
not to mention playing games on iPads or phones....
8
"staring at computer screens"
Same like fingering cell phones which are causing accidents!
Same like fingering cell phones which are causing accidents!
Who is on the bridge here? Is this not a case of basic seamanship? Does the U.S. Navy utilize binoculars or a good old-fashioned set of eyes? I beseech you. Please no more senseless deaths of our courageous sailors at sea.
286
I spent 4 years in the US Navy, way back in the late '60s and early '70s. In basic training we were all taught how to stand watch and use our eyes and binoculars to watch the water for other boat and ship traffic.
Later, as a charter and delivery captain on medium size sailing yachts, being alert was part of the job, especially in busy areas with lots of shipping. I'd have crew, and even paying customers, working as an extra set of eyes to keep the boat safe. Container ships and tankers are pretty noticeable vessels so not seeing one--and reporting it to whomever is on the helm, seems like an incredible lapse in basic seamanship and ship handling skills. The Navy is too lax in navigation and shio handling practices in busy waterways. And it costs lives.
Maybe the Coast Guard or merchant marine can give them some lessons.
Later, as a charter and delivery captain on medium size sailing yachts, being alert was part of the job, especially in busy areas with lots of shipping. I'd have crew, and even paying customers, working as an extra set of eyes to keep the boat safe. Container ships and tankers are pretty noticeable vessels so not seeing one--and reporting it to whomever is on the helm, seems like an incredible lapse in basic seamanship and ship handling skills. The Navy is too lax in navigation and shio handling practices in busy waterways. And it costs lives.
Maybe the Coast Guard or merchant marine can give them some lessons.
6
Fifty-two years ago I was commissioned an Ensign, USN, upon my graduation from college on an NROTC scholarship. I served on active duty about five years, three on a Gearing class FRAM I destroyer and a Forrest Sherman class guided missile destroyer, and in both cases I was CIC Officer and a Fleet-Qualified OOD Underway. These collisions are unimaginable to me. Forget the radar and GPS. This is not about equipment failing or being jammed. It's about basic seamanship. We used lookouts up on the signal bridge (and in the eyes of the ship--forward of the anchors--in fog.) If we had the deck we had binoculars around our necks, frequently walked from bridge wing to bridge wing scanning the horizon, and in close waters had the Captain on the bridge. I remember being OOD transiting Bab-el-Mandeb, the choke point at the entrance to the Red Sea from the Gulf of Aden. The Captain was on the bridge, of course, and the radar was a mess of targets everywhere. CIC kept making stupid recommendations to turn this way and that, which we ignored. Finally, the Captain said to me, "Who is the idiot on watch in your CIC?" "It's Ensign X," I told him, "our recent Annapolis grad who majored in French." "Get him out here," came the CO's command. Perhaps the kid learned something from the dressing down. We took our jobs deadly seriously, as if everyone's lives depended on it, because they did. Somewhere, 7th Fleet command has failed.
75
Perfect ... failed leadership is the cause.
1
RIP to the sailors this is not the time for politics on this topic. We need some heads to roll in the USN now before it is too late and we have another one of these incidents again.
8
Simple question: Why can't our men and women see a big ship close by, even in the dark??
23
Have you ever tried to spot other ships at night at sea. It is much harder than you might think. Surprisingly, the most distinctive sign of a vessel can be that you it blocks the lights from shore behind the ship. Obviously that doesn't work all the time. I think we should wait until the investigations tell us what happened rather than Monday morning quarterbacking the incident.
4
I feel terrible for the Captain of this ship. His career is pretty much over at this point. Keeping your boat from colliding with other boats is job one for a naval commander. That said, how could this have possibly happened twice over a short interval? Could it be a yet unidentified - perhaps even subconscious - loss of confidence in their Commander-in-Chief? No sailor would even consider speaking-up about such a thing. That would be akin to mutinous behavior. One things for sure, things are getting sloppy in the Navy. Hmmm, where else are things getting sloppy? The White House comes to mind. No, we can't make an absolute connection at this point. But over the coming months watch how Donald Trump's sloppiness infects our economy, our environment, your life, everything. Poor leadership always affects things downstream. Always.
17
Sad.
My condolences to their family and friends.
RIP Sailors/Marines.
My condolences to their family and friends.
RIP Sailors/Marines.
15
Very sad.
But these collisions beg the question: If these super expensive ships cannot evade collisions with slow tankers, how are they going to evade a swarm of Soviet SUPERSONIC Sunburn anti-ship missiles coming at them? N.B., Iran has boatloads of these missiles.
Sunburns are the deadliest anti-ship missile in the world
(Caps for emphasis)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-N-22
But these collisions beg the question: If these super expensive ships cannot evade collisions with slow tankers, how are they going to evade a swarm of Soviet SUPERSONIC Sunburn anti-ship missiles coming at them? N.B., Iran has boatloads of these missiles.
Sunburns are the deadliest anti-ship missile in the world
(Caps for emphasis)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS-N-22
7
That's a false equivalency fallacy, Prometheus. The sensors, procedures, and systems used to evade another ship are entirely different than those used to "evade" a missile. First, and most obviously, the USS McCain *could* evade the oil tanker by normal use of its rudder, as guided by its standing watch, radar and numerous navigational aids, none of which are applicable to dealing with the likes of a SS-N-22. The McCain would "evade" (if the term's even applicable) an SS-N-22 by destroying its launch platform before it could fire; dealing with a launched missile by a range of electronic warfare systems; shooting down the missile with one of its own missiles; or shooting it down with its CIWS. None of those anti-missile responses are applicable for dealing with a wayward tanker in normal maritime traffic.
.
The reports on the USS Fitzgerald collision are pointing toward the Navy ship having executed a turn into the Crystal, which was coming up on the Fitzgerald from behind. A ship's missile defense system, whether it works or not, was not going help a destroyer avoid another ship when they steered into crossing paths.
.
The reports on the USS Fitzgerald collision are pointing toward the Navy ship having executed a turn into the Crystal, which was coming up on the Fitzgerald from behind. A ship's missile defense system, whether it works or not, was not going help a destroyer avoid another ship when they steered into crossing paths.
8
@mike
Yes of course there is a bit of hyperbole here, but not that much.
I'd suggest you shelve the optimism and hit the books as to Sunburns. The USS Stark was almost cut in two by a subsonic Exocet anti-ship missiles in the 80's.....
http://www.rense.com/general59/thesunburniransawesome.htm
We have put a lot of $$ into these ships and the Chinese and Russians have put pennies on the dollar on their anti-ship missiles. Chinese are making one that will annihilate a carrier 1500 miles away. That means refeuling aircraft, and those tankers will be sitting ducks as to enemy fighters. These ship are becoming as obsolete as coal.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/12/washington/12navy.html
Iran can swarm the fleet in the straits; sure we'll knock down some but not all.
Read and learn
Yes of course there is a bit of hyperbole here, but not that much.
I'd suggest you shelve the optimism and hit the books as to Sunburns. The USS Stark was almost cut in two by a subsonic Exocet anti-ship missiles in the 80's.....
http://www.rense.com/general59/thesunburniransawesome.htm
We have put a lot of $$ into these ships and the Chinese and Russians have put pennies on the dollar on their anti-ship missiles. Chinese are making one that will annihilate a carrier 1500 miles away. That means refeuling aircraft, and those tankers will be sitting ducks as to enemy fighters. These ship are becoming as obsolete as coal.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/12/washington/12navy.html
Iran can swarm the fleet in the straits; sure we'll knock down some but not all.
Read and learn
5
Exactly, and well put.
2
Someone was not paying attention.
15
When I first heard this story breaking, I thought, "Oh God, not again!" Common sense has me asking the simple question - how can ANYONE miss seeing any of those large cargo ships, especially since a similar accident happened less than two months ago. Also, this area is a "highly congested entrance to the Singapore and Malacca Straits . . . where 80,000 ships a year pass through the area." It boggles the mind.
It's one thing for a family to lose a son or daughter due to combat, but from two similar accidents in less than two months - it's almost too much to bear. If the radar system had malfunctioned, where are the binoculars? Perhaps until the cause and reason for these accidents have been determined, maybe every sailor needs to be issued a pair of binoculars.
11
When I was on the Ike, we transited the Strait of Malacca at 25kts. With the increased speed, limiting lines of approach were narrowed significantly; i.e., all other shipping that was transiting slower did not present a hazard to our navigation. Prior to this, the Ranger transited slower and ran into a merchant ship even though all lookouts were posted and radars were operating with full watch standers in surface plot (sub plot - substitute plot) and bridge plot. The McCain is much more maneuverable, and if all stations were properly manned (ahem, staffed), this should not have happened. The CO, XO and navigator should be relieved forthwith and disciplined. All watch standers (OOD JOOD, JOOW, helmsman (ahem, helmsperson), CIC officer, surface watch officer and associated watch standers) should be properly relieved and properly disciplined. People may ask, "Why be so precipitous with such actions?" The CO should have been on the bridge with the XO in CIC. The navigator is responsible for all training of personnel associated with ship's (safe) navigation. The CO and XO are responsible for everything that occurs onboard. Obey the Rules of the Road; do not hazard the vessel!
63
@Beaner-
A racially integrated navy is not the problem (what the white shoe navy claimed in 1948). Active-duty women sailors aboard warships is not the problem.
Women can perform as well as men in today's high-tech navy in almost every specialty, and are superior in some.
Peacetime routine is at fault. "Standard routines".
Nothing is more dangerous to the wartime navy than the boring, stultifying, initiative-sapping standard routines of the peacetime navy.
A racially integrated navy is not the problem (what the white shoe navy claimed in 1948). Active-duty women sailors aboard warships is not the problem.
Women can perform as well as men in today's high-tech navy in almost every specialty, and are superior in some.
Peacetime routine is at fault. "Standard routines".
Nothing is more dangerous to the wartime navy than the boring, stultifying, initiative-sapping standard routines of the peacetime navy.
Your sexism is showing. If the seaman is willing to fight and die for our country maybe we.could give them the chance regardless of gender.
How many "real men" or "real women" don't enlist?
How many "real men" or "real women" don't enlist?
61 years ago the SS Andrea Doria and MV Stockholm collided off Nantucket in what came to be known as a radar assisted collision. Do they still teach this in navigation classes?
12
I thought that since this unfortunate accident occurred on the watch of the current commander and chief Donald Trump that it would be his responsibility and fault. Why wouldn't the "buck stops here" principle apply. He is constantly claiming credit for things over which he had no control or influence but I bet he blames this on President Obama as was done in a previous comment.
Too bad that it is likely that sailors who had no part in causing this disaster pay the ultimate price. If feel sorry for the families who are suffering now.
Too bad that it is likely that sailors who had no part in causing this disaster pay the ultimate price. If feel sorry for the families who are suffering now.
10
I realize that this is the NY Times. But it is very inappropriate to blame these incidents on Donald Trump or use these comment boards to voice anti-Trump sentiments. There are some useful comments on here from ex Navy folks who actually understand the rules of the road.
11
The commonality of these incidents is that they were all navy ships. The crowded waters of the Far East will tax the nerves of even the most seasoned professional mariner. US Merchant Marine masters (captains) and mates attend four year academies dedicated to teaching the fundamentals of ship handling and navigation. A young naval officer gets out of an ROTC program, or the Naval Academy, with a degree in political science and probably very little, if any, practical introduction to those arts. In close quarters maneuvering situations the merchant will typically have 2-3 people on the bridge verses 10-20(?) for the man-o-war. The library like atmosphere of a very small number of highly focused individuals on a merchant ship verses the pandemonium (even a disciplined one) of a large crowd of people creates a much better environment for critical decision making. Information overload and the subsequent lack of situational awareness caused by focusing on non-vital information, lack of experience, and an overly strict observance of the hierarchical culture of the military are potentially all contributing factors.
62
Rick - well said, I agree completely and heard this exact sentiment from several experienced mariners this morning. The professionalism and experience of US merchant mariners is a great resource for the navy, they only have to ask.
8
I cannot help but think that like all other forces of law and order which have devolved in the face of domestic political chaos that your premise is spot on. For the past several years there have been many bridges infiltrated by nonessential, irresponsible parties that could only pretend to completely understand how to avoid floundering in a dangerous global security environment. It was always easy enough to lay blame on that last president who actually attempted to strengthen American resolve in the face of overt terror. Bypassing orthodoxy, the questioning of authority and the lack of predestructive consequences have led to this frightening scenario. Pray this situation comes to a rapid end.
4
It's 2017 and U.S. Naval ships are having issues navigating the waters near Malaysia. Three years ago it was aircraft. I sure hope there is someone who can positively eliminate any connection.
4
This is the second collision between a US Naval ship, and a civilian ship. Both crashers resulted in damage to the ship below the water level, and both resulted in the lost of life, most likely from drowning due to water flooding the sleeping quarters.
Why not have emergency oxygen supplies in case such terrible accidents happen. At least a constant supply of air/oxygen would allow some time to try and save the submerged naval people.
Why not have emergency oxygen supplies in case such terrible accidents happen. At least a constant supply of air/oxygen would allow some time to try and save the submerged naval people.
7
If you are interested read up on cave diving, which is a very scary and dangerous past time. Even experienced divers who take all and every precaution sometimes die, simply because they loose their orientation.
You can not send anyone into churning, dark water full with debris, and expect them to come up alive.
It takes a lot of preparation and careful progress to dive inside of enclosed spaces. You would never reach anyone in time to rescue them.
And to the matter of providing an air supply to the sailors: As long as you do not go to sleep with the oxygen tank already fasten to you, it will not be of great help. You would have to find the tank and strap it on in darkness and chaos, while at the same time trying to get to a different part of the ship.
Add to that the additional danger of having a pressure vessel at each bunk and i assume you get a net loss.
You can not send anyone into churning, dark water full with debris, and expect them to come up alive.
It takes a lot of preparation and careful progress to dive inside of enclosed spaces. You would never reach anyone in time to rescue them.
And to the matter of providing an air supply to the sailors: As long as you do not go to sleep with the oxygen tank already fasten to you, it will not be of great help. You would have to find the tank and strap it on in darkness and chaos, while at the same time trying to get to a different part of the ship.
Add to that the additional danger of having a pressure vessel at each bunk and i assume you get a net loss.
6
All throughout the ship are these cool devices called EEBD's. Emergency Escape Breathing Devices, that can function underwater. They generate 15 minutes of breathable air. Here is the problem, if you are asleep and suddenly awakened to rushing water, debris and so forth... getting an EEBD on is not the first thought in your melon.
Also as noted by Lars, the disorientation of the event creates in itself other hazards and errors.
My experience? 14 years as a tin can sailor.
Also as noted by Lars, the disorientation of the event creates in itself other hazards and errors.
My experience? 14 years as a tin can sailor.
10
Why not have a competent crew? What has changed in the composition and competency of the crew over the course of the last 30 years? I suppose US battle ships need even more crew who are subject to getting pregnant (a very real problem and US taxpayer cost in the US Navy of today). Perhaps it was just a simple case of ... the wrong time of the month ... for some of the crew.The US Navy is now a shadow of what it once was, despite enormous increases in taxpayer funding. I ask again, what has significantly changed in the composition of the Naval ... crew ... in the course of the past 30 years? If we had these same ... crew's ... 77 years ago perhaps we would all be speaking Japanese or German. Whatever happened to all of the women who tried to qualify for the SEAL units ... and why? A huge waste of US taxpayer money, a charade that nobody is supposed to talk about and yet another disgrace comitted by US politicians and the Pentagon. 09:59 MDT. 8/22/17
3
Overworked, undermanned, and underresourced across the Seventh Fleet and Navy overall. Disaster after disaster, loss of life across the Marines and Navy. How many plane, helo, ship crashes and collisions does a force have to have, how many Sailors and Marines have to die before someone is accountable and changes the culture? Yet they keep discharging experienced enlisted and officers, both line and staff, including medical and mental health officers due to HYT, up or out, while clawing for new recruits, and Ensigns, and 2Lt's fresh out of nothing or school. And more Sailors and Marines die by disasters or their own hand.
171
Huguenot Youth Tremors?
Heroic Yoodling Territory?
Haphazard Yam Toy?
You do realize that acronyms do not communicate to those of us who don't know the secret handshake.
Doesn't add to your credibility at all.
Heroic Yoodling Territory?
Haphazard Yam Toy?
You do realize that acronyms do not communicate to those of us who don't know the secret handshake.
Doesn't add to your credibility at all.
3
Undermanned and underresourced? Surely you jest. The Seventh Fleet is arguably the richest fleet ever assembled, the average cost per ship far exceeding the average cost per fleet of most nations!
The military has received nothing but a blank check since 2001. Every other branch of government has figured out how to do more with less. Whatever problems the Seventh Fleet might have, they have nothing to do with finances.
The military has received nothing but a blank check since 2001. Every other branch of government has figured out how to do more with less. Whatever problems the Seventh Fleet might have, they have nothing to do with finances.
1
Those are pretty scary observations. My sons are too old for service, but losing one to, well, incompetence would be difficult to bear. My heart goes out to the families, since I am sure that this will not end well.
It is shocking and unbelievable that these types of fatal accidents occur.
Prayers and sincere condolences to the families involved.
8
I went to sea fro 1969 to 2009: 6 years in the Navy and 34 as a civilian mariner, the last 26 as captain (mostly oil tankers). Traditional practices and methods remain important, but have become backups to emerging technologies in several areas of navigation. Manual radar plotting has been superseded by automatic plotting, celestial navigation has been replaced by GPS. Becoming a proficient user of these technologies is fundamental to maritime safety. The Automated Identification System (AIS) is fundamental to safely transitting high density areas. Every large merchant ship has it, and navigates accordingly. Doing without is like taking a horsedrawn buggy onto the freeway.
40
Since you have a wealth of experience I was wondering if you could comment on what common errors occurred in your experience and how did you mitigate them? Is GPS and AIS prone to errors or Hacking?
Thanks
Thanks
1
Captain Becker sums it up well. But, I will guess that the root cause is the boss (some admiral) sending the word down to get more "work" done with less or you (the captain) will be replaced.
SridharC,
You ask two great questions. I feel fortunate to have started my career in the era of sextant navigation and grease pencil radar plotting, but that technology is no longer able to keep up with modern conditions. In my experience, GPS is absolutely reliable and greatly enhanced by ECDIS (Electronic Chart Display Information System). By the time I retired in 2009, the limitation had become the accuracy of charts made using older technology (I'm sure that gap is closed now). Since it allows manual input, AIS can be manipulated, but as a practical matter, I never that create any problems.
Electronics are now the primary means of maritime navigation, but every primary system needs a backup. "Visual correlation" is just a technical sounding way of saying, "Look out the window!" With training and practice, the uninstrumented human eyeball can quickly verify what the electronics are saying. These methods can easily be taught and, officers evaluated on their competence in visual correlation before they are entrusted with the safety of a ship.
I suppose that any system that is networked can be hacked, but GPS and AIS are used by such a diverse population that it seems any tampering would be quickly discovered.
I hope that this brief response provides some additional information.
You ask two great questions. I feel fortunate to have started my career in the era of sextant navigation and grease pencil radar plotting, but that technology is no longer able to keep up with modern conditions. In my experience, GPS is absolutely reliable and greatly enhanced by ECDIS (Electronic Chart Display Information System). By the time I retired in 2009, the limitation had become the accuracy of charts made using older technology (I'm sure that gap is closed now). Since it allows manual input, AIS can be manipulated, but as a practical matter, I never that create any problems.
Electronics are now the primary means of maritime navigation, but every primary system needs a backup. "Visual correlation" is just a technical sounding way of saying, "Look out the window!" With training and practice, the uninstrumented human eyeball can quickly verify what the electronics are saying. These methods can easily be taught and, officers evaluated on their competence in visual correlation before they are entrusted with the safety of a ship.
I suppose that any system that is networked can be hacked, but GPS and AIS are used by such a diverse population that it seems any tampering would be quickly discovered.
I hope that this brief response provides some additional information.
20
these ships rely heavily on technology. If GPS Spoofing is occurring, that throws all of the technology off. Let's not throw our Sailors & Admirals under the bus just yet. GPS Spoofing is a real threat
http://maritime-executive.com/editorials/mass-gps-spoofing-attack-in-bla...
http://maritime-executive.com/editorials/mass-gps-spoofing-attack-in-bla...
7
I can't help but wonder about sabotage/terrorism, or even....opioid addiction. None of the articles describe investigations into these as potential contributing factors.
1
Is it "first time, shame on you, second time shame on us?"
The Fat Leonard catastrophe, the Fitzgerald and now the McCain more than suggest that Navy leadership, at least in the 7th fleet, if not higher, are neither leading nor setting an example.
They have been asleep at the watch.
You can't keep blaming ship-board officers when the obscene and fatal errors continue to pile up.
Building an effective culture of integrity, vigilance and safety is a command responsibility which cannot be delegated.
The Fat Leonard catastrophe, the Fitzgerald and now the McCain more than suggest that Navy leadership, at least in the 7th fleet, if not higher, are neither leading nor setting an example.
They have been asleep at the watch.
You can't keep blaming ship-board officers when the obscene and fatal errors continue to pile up.
Building an effective culture of integrity, vigilance and safety is a command responsibility which cannot be delegated.
25
"Asleep at the watch" is not a real expression.
Without regard to whether the collisions are due to human failure or malicious intent, the next step is clear. The Navy must engage independent experts in accident investigation and systems failure and do it NOW. These kinds of incidents are usually investigated by amateurs that have a vested interest in the outcome. Private industry, academia, and government science institutes are well represented by competent investigators that will not tolerate whitewash or inconvenient truths. Use them!
For an example of how not to do it, look to the investigation of the 16" gun accident on the USS Iowa.
For an example of how not to do it, look to the investigation of the 16" gun accident on the USS Iowa.
8
Are we sure that these are not intentional strikes by a foreign country?
6
Yes. A cargo ship steering a straight course for miles and then hits USS Fitzgerald is not exactly a heat-seeking missile.
27
@Austin-
The Straits of Malacca, the area in question, is nautically referred to as "confined waters", vs "open water", meaning maneuverability is compromised.
It appears from the photograph that the USS J.S. McCain was speared near the stern by the merchant vessel. Either the merchant suddenly changed course and veered, or McCain did.
Neither could maneuver effectively in confined waters.
Stay tuned.
The Straits of Malacca, the area in question, is nautically referred to as "confined waters", vs "open water", meaning maneuverability is compromised.
It appears from the photograph that the USS J.S. McCain was speared near the stern by the merchant vessel. Either the merchant suddenly changed course and veered, or McCain did.
Neither could maneuver effectively in confined waters.
Stay tuned.
Navigation is not just dependent on electronics. It also involves visual lookouts, traffic separation schemes, the use of paper charts and many other non-electronic means of navigating and keeping adequate separation between ships. Unless the destroyer was a vessel NUC (i.e. dead in the water) I'm afraid it's difficult not to conclude that in this instance there was a failure of basic seamanship.
415
You sound as though you have some knowledge and know what you are talking about. There is never a substitute for conscientious and prudent work and, in this case, seamanship. We'll see what the investigation yields, but it seems axiomatic that you must use the highest degree of care in your work when other's lives are at stake.
1
I tend to agree that this is a failure of basic operational practices, and would like to point out that the navy does NOT require their navigation and ship-handling officers to undergo the rigorous training mandated by the USCG and IMO that is required of US Merchant Mariners.
At this point, the navy might consider hiring experienced civilian crew to augment their bridge watchstanding and review their operations. It will never happen, I'm sure, but they could help with this.
At this point, the navy might consider hiring experienced civilian crew to augment their bridge watchstanding and review their operations. It will never happen, I'm sure, but they could help with this.
3
Exactly. There should be at least four lookouts with binoculars (especially night vision) at all times on these ships. The Navy may want to put some sailors through small sailboat exercises so they can get a better appreciation of sea hazards (current, wind, objects in the water, judging distances, etc.). You cannot just rely on electronics.
2
I am very surprised this happened. After the USS Fitzgerald I would expect every Captain would be sure his bridge crew was 100%. I wonder how much the bridge practices with the nav radar during the day in clear weather. Things can get very confused real fast at night with lights all around and many contacts to plot.
9
Good news about the recoveries. But, with self-driving cars and other vehicles lurching toward acceptance, any possibilities of cyber interference causing issues, no matter how tangential to other factors, will hopefully be fully explored and made available for future possible improvements.
3
I was aboard USS Ranger (CV 61) during its 1979 Westpac deployment. While transiting the Straits of Malacca we struck a crude oil tanker causing heavy damage to both ships. We limped back to Subic Bay and then to Japan for a month in drydock. Fortunately, no one was seriously injured. Our commanding officer and navigator were both quickly relieved of their duties and replaced.
38 years later the John S. McCain was in a collision in the same area at the exact same time of day. It begs the question whether the Navy is capable of learning from its mistakes.
38 years later the John S. McCain was in a collision in the same area at the exact same time of day. It begs the question whether the Navy is capable of learning from its mistakes.
38
I wonder if it's just too many missions with too small a force, resulting in burnout and higher attrition, resulting in junior people being promoted before they're ready.
13
You have highlighted the reality of America's longest war. After 16 years of continuous conflict the US military may be facing burnout in equipment and people...there have been numerous aircraft crashes by the military this year as well, not to mention the national scandal of 20 vets a day committing suicide. Seems like the Carter years after Vietnam.
11
It must be excruciating for the families of sailors on the USS John S. McCain as they wait and hope against hope. My heart goes out to them. And to the top brass of the US Navy as well, as they wonder what on earth is going on. May they figure it out asap before more sailors die.
170
What on earth is going on? Incompetence is going on. We American taxpayers are spending more than half a trillion dollars each year on our War Department - sorry, I meant our Department of Defense - and many of our admirals and generals are simply incompetent. The solution? Let's spend more money on our DoD. Money cures incompetence, doesn't it?
2
I agree. so heartbreaking for the families. These things should not happen.
First and foremost, my heart goes out to the people who love those who lost their lives in this horrible accident. I have a very special place in my heart for those who die at sea, and will keep these people there.
Now, I may be paranoid, but in this world that's the new normal, and more and more often, the thing the paranoid worried about is true - or it's even worse.
So here goes.
There have been 4 recent collisions of US vessels - unexplainable - incomprehensible - by vessels armed with the best technology for communication and navigation known. All 4 occurred in Asian waters.
Coincidence? I am skeptical of that under the best circumstances and these are not.
We are in unprecedented waters (sorry) with many Asian nations - NK, and, of course, China - which has tremendous incentive in keeping Asia at it's tentative peace.
Also, these countries have sophisticated skills in technology. Means, motive and opportunity.
I think it at least deserves a place in the line up of potential causes.
Now, I may be paranoid, but in this world that's the new normal, and more and more often, the thing the paranoid worried about is true - or it's even worse.
So here goes.
There have been 4 recent collisions of US vessels - unexplainable - incomprehensible - by vessels armed with the best technology for communication and navigation known. All 4 occurred in Asian waters.
Coincidence? I am skeptical of that under the best circumstances and these are not.
We are in unprecedented waters (sorry) with many Asian nations - NK, and, of course, China - which has tremendous incentive in keeping Asia at it's tentative peace.
Also, these countries have sophisticated skills in technology. Means, motive and opportunity.
I think it at least deserves a place in the line up of potential causes.
80
I agree that this being coincidence is unlikely. However, I had another thought about who might be to blame. Please don't think me paranoid but here goes:
I think Trump, Bannon and others of their ilk may have their hand in this. Trump, Bannon, et al want to wreck havoc on our country and abroad. It's not unheard of that dictators have bombed their own people and blamed it on other countries. Just look at Putin's history and rise to power. Moreover, wars targeting an enemy have elevated a failing President's standing; history's most recent example is George W Bush.
I truly believe that Trump, Bannon, et al want chaos in our country and abroad. I truly believe that they would like to enter us into a war with the pretense that we've been attacked by another country. This most recent tragedy on the ship, the John S McCain, seems eerily like a covert warning/payback to McCain not voting for the Health Care Bill. Trump is furious at him and basically called him a traitor.
Again, people may think this is crazy talk but I think looking inward may be a good idea.
I think Trump, Bannon and others of their ilk may have their hand in this. Trump, Bannon, et al want to wreck havoc on our country and abroad. It's not unheard of that dictators have bombed their own people and blamed it on other countries. Just look at Putin's history and rise to power. Moreover, wars targeting an enemy have elevated a failing President's standing; history's most recent example is George W Bush.
I truly believe that Trump, Bannon, et al want chaos in our country and abroad. I truly believe that they would like to enter us into a war with the pretense that we've been attacked by another country. This most recent tragedy on the ship, the John S McCain, seems eerily like a covert warning/payback to McCain not voting for the Health Care Bill. Trump is furious at him and basically called him a traitor.
Again, people may think this is crazy talk but I think looking inward may be a good idea.
3
I also believe that there is a common thread here. But, I doubt it's what you're hinting at. I think the common thread is a training lapse for young US Navy deck watch officers. The two most recent collisions sent the probability of a systematic training problem sky high, in my opinion. If I was a CO of a Navy ship in these waters, I think I would be up on the Bridge all night long. Every night.
2
How about a comparison of a period of similar activity in these same waters when there weren't any collisions vs the recent spate of accidents. Compare staffing rules and actual practices, training (real vs simulation), experience and even maturity.
1
Something seems terribly amiss. Our Navy ships don't just run into things. Foul play? Terrorism?
14
If Obama was still president, the Republicans would be blaming him without mercy.
So fairplay. This second collision and loss of life is all President Trump's fault. He should have fixed the Navy before he modernized and upgraded our nuclear weapons!!!!
So fairplay. This second collision and loss of life is all President Trump's fault. He should have fixed the Navy before he modernized and upgraded our nuclear weapons!!!!
258
How about a little message of compassion for the families of these fallen sailors and their shipmates. Finger pointing is needed right now.
It's because Obama was President our military is in such bad shape. If you believe otherwise, you are living in an alternative Universe.
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I agree, focus on the mission of the military. Not the social integration of transgenders to the military. Train on Force Projection/Force Protection not Climate Change. Promote based upon experience and technical expertise, not based upon gender or race. These are the things that President Trump is working to fix from the last 8 years of degeneration.
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Take a knee would cause Sailors slammed by the UCMJ after already being slammed by a ship the watch should have detected. Yet another out of touch Flag Officer trying to describe Enlisted life.
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Dont blame the sailors. 4 accidents in a short time period in the same global area. The probability of this happening just by chance is close to zero. You seriously have to look into IT-hacking into radar, navigation and steering systems of the navy and merchant ships involved.
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You can't IT-hack into a sailor standing watch with a pair of binoculars. Very low-tech and effective.
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I had not considered hacking but it seems like there should be personnel on constant watch. A freighter is no small ship, I can't believe that someone would not see it both on radar and visually. They still have people on watch I'd assume. I would also assume that there are cameras running, did the freighter have it running lights and beacon on? I would hope they would announce their findings.
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If the various systems were taken over, manual over rides could be too late. The helicopters went down inexplicably with loss of lives. We were likely able to foul some of NK's missile launchings with cyber tech created during the Obama admin. All of these devastating crashes human error? Black boxes on helicopters?
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