There is a monument above every grave of every confederate soldier. You will have to destroy those, too. Your warped vision is doomed to failure because you will only increase the importance of the last monument.
4
When the hatefiled white supremacists according to the author define all supporters of such monuments and defile their ideas then does also every (hate-)crime by a person of color defile the ideas of people of the same race? Is kicking a statue sign of a sober mindset? Is defining the Confederacy solely through slavery a truely historical approach or only the continuation of a propaganda measure of the Union to rally people to its colors?
To be sure, I would rather have these monuments to be put away, but I do not thing that this should be effected by means of tearingthem down and kicking them in effigie for politicians of the past (and present), with other people perceiving that their life and history is also kicked at. A kicking match between conservative whites and blacks together with progressive whites will not result in a closer union and not lead to better understanding on either side.
To be sure, I would rather have these monuments to be put away, but I do not thing that this should be effected by means of tearingthem down and kicking them in effigie for politicians of the past (and present), with other people perceiving that their life and history is also kicked at. A kicking match between conservative whites and blacks together with progressive whites will not result in a closer union and not lead to better understanding on either side.
1
Can we please drop the pretense that Lee was a reluctant victim of the secessionist movement? He was a slaveholding Virginian who resigned his commission in the United States Army to return home and take command of a treasonous, insurrectionist army. He darn near led that army to victory. Only after the north was able to starve the south and win a war of attrition did he surrender at Appomatox. He was allowed to return home and resume his life. He was a traitor, plain and simple. And should have suffered the appropriate consequences.
4
I think that the author completely ignores history when it comes to the approach US took in post-WWII Germany and Japan when it came to dismantling actual racial supremacy regimes that did the actual heinous war crimes: you still try to leave "good Germans" so that people would rally around them, and not "bad Germans". You want to make the point that the regime was bad, but not all the people who were under regime were bad: some were very, very good (actually, often much better than they actually were), but simply mistaken and caught on the wrong side.
That is partially the reason why the myth of Rommel the great German general who was a "gentleman warrior", a military genius, and even plotted to kill Hitler and died for it was cultivated - even though each of the three points made here is quite questionable. It's an escape vent of sorts, so that people had the person they could affiliate with if they wanted to affiliate with the past without affiliating with the regime in process.
US policy at the time clearly meant to avoid the trap of the Treaty of Versailles, so I think it's not that wise to brush it off aside carelessly.
That is partially the reason why the myth of Rommel the great German general who was a "gentleman warrior", a military genius, and even plotted to kill Hitler and died for it was cultivated - even though each of the three points made here is quite questionable. It's an escape vent of sorts, so that people had the person they could affiliate with if they wanted to affiliate with the past without affiliating with the regime in process.
US policy at the time clearly meant to avoid the trap of the Treaty of Versailles, so I think it's not that wise to brush it off aside carelessly.
1
Orc: The trees are strong, my lord, their roots go deep.
Saruman: Rip them all down!
Thus the intolerant,morally self-certain, and authoritarian left becomes the mirror image and Jungian shadow of the alt.right.
Saruman: Rip them all down!
Thus the intolerant,morally self-certain, and authoritarian left becomes the mirror image and Jungian shadow of the alt.right.
9
I am always open to a well argued opinion - unfortunately, this piece has none of that.
It seems to posit that anything that white nationals like - is objectionable and must be razed.
That is not an argument - I am pretty sure that many of them like BBQ as well - should we ban BBQ?
It seems to posit that anything that white nationals like - is objectionable and must be razed.
That is not an argument - I am pretty sure that many of them like BBQ as well - should we ban BBQ?
9
The only thing that Orwell gt wrong in 1984 was the date. Ignorance is strength!
3
Karen speaks of other being naive but states "But the Charlottesville march, with its hundreds of neo-Nazis and white nationalists coming out to defend the memory of General Lee, puts the lie to the notion that, as the apologists say, these monuments are about “heritage, not hate.” So if some of them celebrate Christmas we shouldn't do that either? The problem with the Auschwitz memorial is that it is located in Auschwitz. Those that need to see it will never go there. Just as Bryan Stevenson is erecting memorials where lynchings occurred we need counter-memorials next to or across from to show where we have been and where we are going. White washing the past is just naive.
3
I for one, Professor, was looking for a more insightful perspective. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I'd like to believe one can appreciate Gen. Lee, Longstreet and Stonewall Jackson without being a racist; take Columbus Day as a holiday free of any association with his murderous tactics; or hold season tickets to the Washington Redskins without coming off as insensitive to American Indians (although, unlike the Brave's or the Chiefs, their name is beyond the boundary of appropriateness for this and future generations.).
We're not born racist in 21st century America, rather, it is something instilled in us by our parents. Getting rid of the protestor's parents, rather than the statues themselves, would do more for breaking the chain of racism, but then again, that's not a practical solution.
In London, Paris, Rome and elsewhere they display coffins, statues and memorials of 500-year old personalities, few of whom could pass the non-discriminatory standards of today. We could put all of our offesnsive statues in a warehouse for a thousand years which, given the rate of progress in this country, it will be that long before we can spurn the genes of racism in our domestic culture.
We're not born racist in 21st century America, rather, it is something instilled in us by our parents. Getting rid of the protestor's parents, rather than the statues themselves, would do more for breaking the chain of racism, but then again, that's not a practical solution.
In London, Paris, Rome and elsewhere they display coffins, statues and memorials of 500-year old personalities, few of whom could pass the non-discriminatory standards of today. We could put all of our offesnsive statues in a warehouse for a thousand years which, given the rate of progress in this country, it will be that long before we can spurn the genes of racism in our domestic culture.
8
I thought Trump prefers war heroes who were 'not captured or surrendered' - but Robert E Lee - was a loser, surrendered to US Grant - not the same as George Washington, who won a war against the superpower of the day.
It is true that Lee was among the greatest war generals this country has had, but those exploits are to be memorialized in a War Museum if and when that every gets built.
It is true that Lee was among the greatest war generals this country has had, but those exploits are to be memorialized in a War Museum if and when that every gets built.
4
Abraham Lincoln in his first inaugural speech, argued for maintaining the Union intact. He stated the Union could only be dissolved by all the parties of the Union & not by one or several of the parties. There is no way out of the Union based on "States Rights". Any such action of secession is Anarchy & thus treasonous.
He implored all that, "We are not enemies, but friends... to be touched ...by the better angels of our nature."
In his second address, Lincoln clearly stated that continued slavery as the cause of the civil war. He urged his followers to finish the work to end the war; to bind the Nation's wounds & care for all the soldiers, widows & orphans of the war, "With malice to none & charity to all..."
The monuments to the "Heroes of the Confederacy" are attempts to impose their white supremacist beliefs as a way to control the descendants of former slaves; to forestall instituting equality throughout the south.
In the spirit of President Lincoln, it is right & imperative to bring down these statues, glorifying the traitorous leaders of the Confederacy.
Also in that spirit, as a nation, it is appropriate to honor the memories of all who fought in this terrible conflict, honor soldiers on both sides as well as honor all the victims of slavery.
If there are people to glorify, they are the ones who struggled to end slavery at great personal risk. Honor Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman & all who sacrificed to make America Great for the first time.
He implored all that, "We are not enemies, but friends... to be touched ...by the better angels of our nature."
In his second address, Lincoln clearly stated that continued slavery as the cause of the civil war. He urged his followers to finish the work to end the war; to bind the Nation's wounds & care for all the soldiers, widows & orphans of the war, "With malice to none & charity to all..."
The monuments to the "Heroes of the Confederacy" are attempts to impose their white supremacist beliefs as a way to control the descendants of former slaves; to forestall instituting equality throughout the south.
In the spirit of President Lincoln, it is right & imperative to bring down these statues, glorifying the traitorous leaders of the Confederacy.
Also in that spirit, as a nation, it is appropriate to honor the memories of all who fought in this terrible conflict, honor soldiers on both sides as well as honor all the victims of slavery.
If there are people to glorify, they are the ones who struggled to end slavery at great personal risk. Honor Frederick Douglass, Harriet Tubman & all who sacrificed to make America Great for the first time.
4
Based on this opinion and many readers, we should really tear down all monuments and memorials as they honor flawed men and all men are flawed. You can look back to 200 years ago with horror, wondering why America imported slaves in the first place. And yes, the south seceded because they wanted to keep their slaves, wanted to keep their 'way' of life. But do we tear down Pearl Harbor because of our treatment of the Japanese? There is not a man alive or dead who has not done something we'd disapprove of, especially we women who were actually treated pretty poorly in the 1800s. But, this is NOT acceptable. I MUST BE labeled for what it is - VANDALISM?
7
Today, President Trump is being universally denounced in the media for his insane assertion that George Washington and Thomas Jefferson are next, while numerous think pieces are being prepared for publication tomorrow on why, now that we think about it, tearing down statues of Washington and Jefferson is demanded by the fight against white supremacy, the right side of history, the current year, and resistance to Trump.
That sounds like a lot of destruction, though.
Perhaps cooler heads will prevail and a compromise solution can prevent having to demolish the Jefferson Memorial, the Washington Monument, and other landmarks to shame the descendants of the once proud people who gave us the great men of American history. Perhaps we can just retcon all these statues and place names to reflect the heritages of today’s winners rather than of today’s losers, those hateful haters.
It would be kind of like how we all know now that Caitlyn Jenner won the 1976 Olympics? That could save a lot in demolition costs.
That sounds like a lot of destruction, though.
Perhaps cooler heads will prevail and a compromise solution can prevent having to demolish the Jefferson Memorial, the Washington Monument, and other landmarks to shame the descendants of the once proud people who gave us the great men of American history. Perhaps we can just retcon all these statues and place names to reflect the heritages of today’s winners rather than of today’s losers, those hateful haters.
It would be kind of like how we all know now that Caitlyn Jenner won the 1976 Olympics? That could save a lot in demolition costs.
2
A lot (most?) of the founding fathers owned slaves. They weren't interested in the vote for all men, even of their own white race. Women? Forget it.
And yet, nobody is screaming to tear down their statues, at least not yet. That day may come, I suspect.
And yet, nobody is screaming to tear down their statues, at least not yet. That day may come, I suspect.
5
Those that did this should be arrested and fined. This is vandelism. And shame on those that believe removing a monument to a soldier are in the right to do something like this.
Monuments do not cause racism. Monuments do not celebrate racism. Did these soldiers have slaves? Sure, most did. However, there were many in the north that had slaves too. And, if we are to erase monuments in an effort to erase history, we are going to lose. We have monuments to many over the last centuries, likely all, that did bad things in their lifetime. The Kennedy's made their fortune running booze during prohibition. JFK was a notorious womanizer. Ted was involved with the death of a woman. Washington himself was a womanizer, slave holder, and had many children from many women.
The monuments should stay, they are not about racism - much more complex than that. Honestly, when you walk through a park and see a statue, do you really feel offended by racism? Destruction of these is wrong and only promotes more hatred. I doubt most of the protesters, on either side, know anything about Lee. Unbelievable!
Monuments do not cause racism. Monuments do not celebrate racism. Did these soldiers have slaves? Sure, most did. However, there were many in the north that had slaves too. And, if we are to erase monuments in an effort to erase history, we are going to lose. We have monuments to many over the last centuries, likely all, that did bad things in their lifetime. The Kennedy's made their fortune running booze during prohibition. JFK was a notorious womanizer. Ted was involved with the death of a woman. Washington himself was a womanizer, slave holder, and had many children from many women.
The monuments should stay, they are not about racism - much more complex than that. Honestly, when you walk through a park and see a statue, do you really feel offended by racism? Destruction of these is wrong and only promotes more hatred. I doubt most of the protesters, on either side, know anything about Lee. Unbelievable!
4
If we're going to have monuments to noble losers, how about Cornwallis, Burgoyne, Gage, and the Howe's? Maybe even Arnold.
Perhaps we should look towards Germany. Did they eliminate the concentration camps or use them as a reminder of "never again". I'm neutral on the subject of removing historical Confederate monuments. As a southerner I think we should say it's Gone With The Wind and best let go and move on in this case.
3
We have so many monuments to the defenders of the Confederacy. Where are the monuments to John Brown,Dr.Benjamin Rush,Moses Brown.William Lloyd Garrison or Ulysses S. Grant? These people fought against slavery or risked their lives to help protect the newly freed former slaves. These Confederate monuments really represent a distortion of the truth and not the exposing of the truth.
9
It it will be interesting to see what happens to the statues of Confederates who fought at Gettysburg, Antietam, Shiloh, Fredericksburg and elsewhere in our national historical parks.
5
Removing public statues violates history, of course it does. It's just not the history you find palatable. This is indeed a slippery slope whose logical end is either civil war or the end of the U.S.A., or both. It's a fool's errand and the academy in particular should have no truck with it. It is far better to teach people about the past, in all its multifarious complexity, through education and contextualization as some commenters have noted.
I visited Montreal recently and noted numerous statutes honouring past royal figures and British icons who, at a minimum, have no meaning to today's Quebec and resonate little in particular with the French Canadian people. They never felt the need to tear them down.
In the past I've stayed at the Queen Elizabeth Hotel...
I visited Montreal recently and noted numerous statutes honouring past royal figures and British icons who, at a minimum, have no meaning to today's Quebec and resonate little in particular with the French Canadian people. They never felt the need to tear them down.
In the past I've stayed at the Queen Elizabeth Hotel...
9
And we will not change the name of Lake Champlain.
1
These people took up arms against the United States of America. Apparently Abraham Lincoln saved their lives at the end of the war. In my view they should have spent the rest of their lives in prison after Nuremberg-type public trials which would have provided us a record from which we might have been able to launch something like a Truth and Reconciliation commission.
4
Actually, Lincoln treated captured CSA soldiers as prisoners of war thereby recognizing that they were from a different nation.
6
I'm sorry, I'm in the "they are mostly about history" crowd. I am no apologist for those who continue to fight the Civil War, now under the lost cause explanation that the only reason the Confederacy lost the war is they were simply overwhelmed by the financial and populous advantage had by the Union, but never out-marshaled or outfought. With a few exceptions like Nathan Bedford Forest, removing these symbols is simply not worth the backlash, possibly forever alienating southerners from joining with us as one whole country. Unity we are going to need in the near future if scientists are to be believed. Southerners who hold Robert E. Lee as a great military genius will not be dissuaded from believing this just because part of the polity has the power to remove their statues from the square.
5
pity what is going on. I am with you totally. its history, done and now move on
1
I am an historian and absolutely no fan of Donald Trump. But I don't see the necessity of removing all Confederate statues. Certainly, some figures either Confederate or of later vintage should disappear. I don't think we need to see commemorations of Nathan Bedford Forrest, Alexander Stephens or Roger Taney. Such men should be forgotten. But removing the iconic figures of Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, for example, removes the memory of men who defended the South and its people from a terrible war machine that may have emancipated the Slaves but also inflicted a level of death and destruction on Southern people that has no parallel in American history.
The white descendants of the Civil War South live throughout North America today. Communities in the region remember Sherman's March to the Sea, the destruction of Atlanta and swath of terror, looting and burning that were part of the Southern experience of the war.
So there is reason to honor Confederate war dead, without agreeing to part of their cause. And their reason to allow people to honor the memory of some leaders, such as Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, who did not fight to preserve the institution of slavery. Their public memories should be contextualized but not erased.
The white descendants of the Civil War South live throughout North America today. Communities in the region remember Sherman's March to the Sea, the destruction of Atlanta and swath of terror, looting and burning that were part of the Southern experience of the war.
So there is reason to honor Confederate war dead, without agreeing to part of their cause. And their reason to allow people to honor the memory of some leaders, such as Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson, who did not fight to preserve the institution of slavery. Their public memories should be contextualized but not erased.
11
@Yankelnevich
"...removes the memory of men who defended the South and its people from a terrible war machine that may have emancipated the Slaves but also inflicted a level of death and destruction on Southern people that has no parallel in American history."
Really? No parallel? Surely, the destruction in World War II was far greater.
So, should we put up statues of Hitler because of the devastation wreaked on Germany in World War II? Perhaps a few statues of Tojo because of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
As General Sherman put it: "war is hell." Which, by the way, is, in my option, is where Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson and all who defended the vile confederate regime that made war on the United States of America belong.
"...removes the memory of men who defended the South and its people from a terrible war machine that may have emancipated the Slaves but also inflicted a level of death and destruction on Southern people that has no parallel in American history."
Really? No parallel? Surely, the destruction in World War II was far greater.
So, should we put up statues of Hitler because of the devastation wreaked on Germany in World War II? Perhaps a few statues of Tojo because of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
As General Sherman put it: "war is hell." Which, by the way, is, in my option, is where Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson and all who defended the vile confederate regime that made war on the United States of America belong.
2
Never the less. Seems a bit more like what the Taliban, ISIS, and miscellaneous iconoclasts do in the name of their own rather narrow reading of history and morals. Monuments are probably more effective discussed than destroyed.
10
It's not an issue of keep or destroy. Most of the discussions are about the monuments being RELOCATED to museums or spaces that are less prominent or less connected to government institutions (e.g. not in front of a courthouse, not in city hall etc.). Only a small majority are advocating complete destruction so no, this is not like ISIS or other iconoclasts.
3
Statues of Confederate heroes and Confederate flags MIGHT remind some people of America's "dark past," but I doubt it. Can we just tell the truth? What are the first 2 thoughts that come to your mind when you see the Confederate flag or a monument to a Conferderate leader? I see the Confederate flag, I think "bigotry and slavery." I imagine that not all Southerners mourn for the "good ole days," which included slavery, lynchings, American apartheid, the back-breaking labor of white farmers who did NOT own slaves, and losses that stemmed from a war that was, as usual, fought for the benefit of the wealthy.
4
History and the keeping of historical monuments is important for everyone to see both sides of the argument. If "bad history and its monuments and namesakes in battles" are removed, am I to assume that history has always had a legacy of being good?
History editing as I call it, is also happening in Canada. A federal building in Ottawa is being renamed because the original person for whom the building was named was the initiator of the dreadful plan to re-situate native children.
Another name to one of the streets in Montreal is being talked about for replacement - the current name was named after a bitter anti-semite.
I'm Jewish, so I know what remembering means, and the best example is keeping the horrific death camp, Auschwitz open for Jews and other people to remember. Auschwitz was in fact one of the worst of all the death camps in Europe, and was run by the Nazis.
My point is that it may be good to in fact remove all of the monuments and street names that are bad history, but what are we to do to remember that there is a lot of bad that does exist? What other ways are there to remember ALL of history?
As the old expression goes, "those who do not learn by history are doomed to repeat it".
History editing as I call it, is also happening in Canada. A federal building in Ottawa is being renamed because the original person for whom the building was named was the initiator of the dreadful plan to re-situate native children.
Another name to one of the streets in Montreal is being talked about for replacement - the current name was named after a bitter anti-semite.
I'm Jewish, so I know what remembering means, and the best example is keeping the horrific death camp, Auschwitz open for Jews and other people to remember. Auschwitz was in fact one of the worst of all the death camps in Europe, and was run by the Nazis.
My point is that it may be good to in fact remove all of the monuments and street names that are bad history, but what are we to do to remember that there is a lot of bad that does exist? What other ways are there to remember ALL of history?
As the old expression goes, "those who do not learn by history are doomed to repeat it".
7
What needs to fall is the fallacy of reasoning promoting the non-distribution of equality to humans born equal outside artificially composed social constraints.
1
"...white elites use(d) the white working class to do their bidding by pitting them against those with whom they have more in common economically than those in power. ..... White elites showed their thanks by erecting Confederate monuments."
And still do. Anytime we are pitted against anyone else...Dems v/s Repubs; race v/s race; male v/s female; religion v/s religion; age v/s youth; if we take the bait and fight, we are keeping the elites in power.
For them, the .1%, they haven't the votes to stay there. They need the rest of us fighting each other off. Please, follow the money, not the logic, not even what is right. To understand the mess we're always in, follow the money.
And still do. Anytime we are pitted against anyone else...Dems v/s Repubs; race v/s race; male v/s female; religion v/s religion; age v/s youth; if we take the bait and fight, we are keeping the elites in power.
For them, the .1%, they haven't the votes to stay there. They need the rest of us fighting each other off. Please, follow the money, not the logic, not even what is right. To understand the mess we're always in, follow the money.
2
What will happen to Monument Ave. in Richmond. VA.? If you pass through Richmond, a ride down Monument Ave. is certainly worth the time.
3
Consider that these statues have become "easy" targets because action can be taken--most are controlled by municipalities, and can be removed by their decision (city council etc.) People want to DO something against injustice. What every non-member of a hate group would really like to attack is the public display of the Confederate flag and the Nazi flag. That would be deemed unconstitutional however. I believe in some removal, but really in more aggressive education/contextualization. For New Yorkers, you may want to go to Grand Army Plaza and contemplate the gold gilded Sherman monument and ponder his post-Civil War role as commander in the genocidal Indian Wars. Slavery is not the only sin we are guilty of as a nation. And what are you going to do about that most powerful piece of Confederate "the Cause" propaganda ever, Gone with the Wind (now streaming on Amazon Prime!) You have to admit it is a scene by scene textbook in racist Southern mythology--so make it a teaching moment. Used that way it is very effective.
3
These monuments should come down and placed in a museum or a battlefield and or cemetery. Erasing history no matter how painful it is, is wrong but putting history in it's proper place is needed. These are symbols of defiance but they are historical and must never be forgotten lest we repeat the tragedy again. We go to the Holocaust museum in Washington not to glorify but to remember the horror, the racism, the brutality and never forget. Thus these monuments should go to a place where they can be explained, who these folks were, what were they fighting for and the most important thing the stain of slavery that they tried to perpetuate. Rewriting history, erasing history or sanitizing history is dangerous and the USSR, Germans, Pol Pot, Taliban and North Koreans did this by making this better for the "people". We shouldn't fall into this trap of censorship for the good of the masses, that is totalitarian. Be very careful and not memorialize the statues but explain the statues and the history surrounding it in it's proper setting.
3
This is the letter my btother, who works as a public defender in Durham, N.C.
gave to the Durham district attorney today:
As a citizen of the United States of America since birth in 1952, a “Vietnam
Era” veteran, and a resident of Durham County since 2008 (working in Durham since 1996), I urge you to exercise your prosecutorial discretion to dismiss all criminal charges against those who toppled the Confederate soldier statue on 14 August 2017.
Monuments to the Confederacy are an affront to Americans of all ancestries and
in particular to veterans who put their lives on the line in service to our Country – including my grandfathers who fought for the United States in World War I and my younger son who has served two tours with the United States Army in Iraq.
The United States of America – not “the North” or “the Union” – won the Civil War more than a century-and-a-half ago. It is far past time for responsible public officials to declare the truth and act for the removal of all public memorials to those who betrayed and fought against the United States in 1861 - 1865.
While the Rule of Law remains important, our leaders also should recognize
and act to remedy government error. This is the Twenty-first Century. Public
resources ought not be expended to prosecute mere damage to a Twentieth Century monument to Nineteenth Century crimes against the United States of America and against the people who remained loyal to our country.
gave to the Durham district attorney today:
As a citizen of the United States of America since birth in 1952, a “Vietnam
Era” veteran, and a resident of Durham County since 2008 (working in Durham since 1996), I urge you to exercise your prosecutorial discretion to dismiss all criminal charges against those who toppled the Confederate soldier statue on 14 August 2017.
Monuments to the Confederacy are an affront to Americans of all ancestries and
in particular to veterans who put their lives on the line in service to our Country – including my grandfathers who fought for the United States in World War I and my younger son who has served two tours with the United States Army in Iraq.
The United States of America – not “the North” or “the Union” – won the Civil War more than a century-and-a-half ago. It is far past time for responsible public officials to declare the truth and act for the removal of all public memorials to those who betrayed and fought against the United States in 1861 - 1865.
While the Rule of Law remains important, our leaders also should recognize
and act to remedy government error. This is the Twenty-first Century. Public
resources ought not be expended to prosecute mere damage to a Twentieth Century monument to Nineteenth Century crimes against the United States of America and against the people who remained loyal to our country.
3
To Wobbly from Rochester: You suggested that all charges be dismissed in regard to the tearing down of a Confederate statue in Durham, NC.
I've thought about that (since I'm a criminal defense attorney in the area). But I see a problem: If charges are dismissed, then the right-wing uglies will come and start destroying and defacing other things here. And they'll scream, "You didn't prosecute the Blacks, you only want to prosecute us!"
That will be ammunition to further enrage alienated whites. It will strengthen Trump's base in the swing states like Michigan and Penna., and it will exacerbate the divisions among people everywhere including here.
No, the defendants in the Durham case should not be punished to the max. But as to exactly what to do, these cases will be tough calls for the prosecutors and the judges. I hope they appreciate this, and rise to the occasion.
I've thought about that (since I'm a criminal defense attorney in the area). But I see a problem: If charges are dismissed, then the right-wing uglies will come and start destroying and defacing other things here. And they'll scream, "You didn't prosecute the Blacks, you only want to prosecute us!"
That will be ammunition to further enrage alienated whites. It will strengthen Trump's base in the swing states like Michigan and Penna., and it will exacerbate the divisions among people everywhere including here.
No, the defendants in the Durham case should not be punished to the max. But as to exactly what to do, these cases will be tough calls for the prosecutors and the judges. I hope they appreciate this, and rise to the occasion.
1
I feel the same way about FDR for what he did to Japanese Americans. Who will help me tear his statues down?
2
The nation's Capitol Building has many statues of Confederate rebels. This quote is from the Washington Post in an article about how those monuments wound up placed there:
"Lee lived only five more years after the end of the Civil War. But in that time, he made it clear how he felt about memorials to the failed insurrection.
“I think it wiser,” he wrote in an 1869 letter, “not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”"
"Lee lived only five more years after the end of the Civil War. But in that time, he made it clear how he felt about memorials to the failed insurrection.
“I think it wiser,” he wrote in an 1869 letter, “not to keep open the sores of war but to follow the examples of those nations who endeavored to obliterate the marks of civil strife, to commit to oblivion the feelings engendered.”"
5
Amazing to me that Ms. Cox is criticized as a history professor in writing this letter. Many, many of us born and raised in the South are well aware that these statues, including the one on UNC-Chapel Hill campus, may be referenced as "historical", but we all know that instead they, along with confederate flags, are viewed and felt by our friends, neighbors, colleagues and families as a symbol of repression, hatred, fear, tyranny, and dominance. Surely a statue of Lincoln, FDR, and JFK do not and would not evoke these same perceptions and visceral feelings by those who pass them by. The statue in Durham in front of the courthouse - erected in 1924! - should have come down a long time ago so that all of the citizens in Durham - when walking into the county courthouse for justice are not reminded of the gross injustice done by our country to those who are no different, except for the color of their skin.
5
Your reference is to Silent Sam, the Confederate soldier memorialized on UNC's sylvan campus looking down on Franklin St. The statue represents UNC students who left to join the insurrection. (Just a few steps away is another statue depicting the slaves who built much of the early UNC campus).
My daughter and I -- she is a UNC sophomore -- have discussed what should be done with Silent Sam. Tear it down? Haul it away? Place it in a museum? Or leave it in place as a reminder that a university is a place of freedom, intellectual and moral, and that choices now deemed evil were, decades ago, matters that roiled the blood and provoked the tempers of young men to fight for a misbegotten cause.
My daughter and I agreed that this was a more useful example than the fleeting emotional high of knocking over a monument on a campus where freedom is the ultimate mission, whether misguided or sublime.
My daughter and I -- she is a UNC sophomore -- have discussed what should be done with Silent Sam. Tear it down? Haul it away? Place it in a museum? Or leave it in place as a reminder that a university is a place of freedom, intellectual and moral, and that choices now deemed evil were, decades ago, matters that roiled the blood and provoked the tempers of young men to fight for a misbegotten cause.
My daughter and I agreed that this was a more useful example than the fleeting emotional high of knocking over a monument on a campus where freedom is the ultimate mission, whether misguided or sublime.
1
Politics and the courts from about 1800 onward anticipated civil war. They shielded the public from intractable disagreements. In a famous Commerce Clause case in 1824 -- Gibbons v. Ogden, the Supreme Court ruled -- 23 long years after the dispute arose -- not on interstate commerce, because that would impinge on the slave-holding states, but on navigational waters.
As a nation, we tried to postpone the inevitable conflict for two generations. Last evening, our president poured fuel on the embers of that war.
White supremacy is insinuated in state and federal law and life, from health care, to day care, to public education, to jobs, credit, housing, community resources and social standing. Even on the internet and in the New York Times.
If we ever hope to repair the animus of race -- which is not even a thing in biology -- we need quality education and honest history classes, where, unlike Texas schools, we don't refer to slaves as "workers."
Civic ignorance is the problem. It oppresses people and got Donald elected.
As a nation, we tried to postpone the inevitable conflict for two generations. Last evening, our president poured fuel on the embers of that war.
White supremacy is insinuated in state and federal law and life, from health care, to day care, to public education, to jobs, credit, housing, community resources and social standing. Even on the internet and in the New York Times.
If we ever hope to repair the animus of race -- which is not even a thing in biology -- we need quality education and honest history classes, where, unlike Texas schools, we don't refer to slaves as "workers."
Civic ignorance is the problem. It oppresses people and got Donald elected.
5
Trump mentioned George Washington? I guess I missed all those statues of him when I visited England, along with the other signees of the Declaration of Independence. I also missed the statues of our other generals in the Revolutionary War and the War of 1812. I must have had incompetent tour guides, or maybe it was those funny British accents that obscured my understanding of all the statues that were pointed out to us.
3
THERE HAS TO BE HISTORICAL DISCRETION, HERE: and courage, physical and moral. Both the alt-Left and alt-Right grew up in that unfortunate era when history, especially American history, was turned into an utterly incomprehensible morass by 60s radicals who could not build a new America with their sophomoric rantings but COULD end up teaching children.
Don't get me wrong: I agree with Henry Adams that Lee should have been hanged (although reluctantly) and I agree with Thaddeus Stevens and William T. Sherman that white Southerners would never be reconciled and would have to be exiled or shot. I also believe that John Brown WAS a domestic terrorist (he was, in addition to a megalomaniacal sociopath):
BUT: to go after a statue of Robert E. Lee NOW, when, as even this silly column says, he joined the Armies of Virginia (and he fought only for Virginia, not the Confederacy) reluctantly, openly criticized and condemned slavery, more, indeed, than many Northerners, that he earlier performed important service for the Union and then, after he was not hanged, lived a productive and useful life... Why make HIM your target? Why? Because, like most alt-targets, he's EASY.
If the alt-Left wants to show some guts, let them march to Memphis and go after the bronze equestrian statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, slaver, Confederate war criminal, and first Grand Dragon of the KKK; try, and deal with the violent consequences from the alt-Right. That would be brave -- and proper.
Don't get me wrong: I agree with Henry Adams that Lee should have been hanged (although reluctantly) and I agree with Thaddeus Stevens and William T. Sherman that white Southerners would never be reconciled and would have to be exiled or shot. I also believe that John Brown WAS a domestic terrorist (he was, in addition to a megalomaniacal sociopath):
BUT: to go after a statue of Robert E. Lee NOW, when, as even this silly column says, he joined the Armies of Virginia (and he fought only for Virginia, not the Confederacy) reluctantly, openly criticized and condemned slavery, more, indeed, than many Northerners, that he earlier performed important service for the Union and then, after he was not hanged, lived a productive and useful life... Why make HIM your target? Why? Because, like most alt-targets, he's EASY.
If the alt-Left wants to show some guts, let them march to Memphis and go after the bronze equestrian statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, slaver, Confederate war criminal, and first Grand Dragon of the KKK; try, and deal with the violent consequences from the alt-Right. That would be brave -- and proper.
3
There is no vendetta against Robert E. Lee,the person. He was deemed most representative of the confederacy therefore many, many statues of him.
The current angst is about memorializing any of the "heroes" of that insurrection.
The current angst is about memorializing any of the "heroes" of that insurrection.
2
Which is precisely what I mean by "discretion": not "quiet," as most think, but the careful selection of targets. No, Lee's not a hero, but he's an EASY TARGET, when there are so many greater monsters to attack. But do with the alt-Left or alt-Right ever go after TOUGH targets? NO.
Pick your fights. Win the fights you pick. Stop playing the victims, both sides -- if that's possible in this country, anymore.
Pick your fights. Win the fights you pick. Stop playing the victims, both sides -- if that's possible in this country, anymore.
The less public education (and by that I mean state/federal funded) we have in this country, the more unreasoned hate and violence we're going to see. If Betsy DeVos has her way we'll be a nation of knuckle-dragging, wage slaves in no time. Don't forget her hubby is heir to the Amway fortune the biggest, most predatory ponzi scheme on the planet. Got to have a ready supply of suckers!
7
Remove all Confederate statues from land related to Government Buildings but some which have artistic merit as established by curators in major museums should be preserved in art museums. Those without artistic merit should be destroyed.
2
I am the first to condemn racial violence. That said, I also believe when you start tearing down statues that are a part of our history, dark or not, we are regressing as a Nation. Those statues are a reminder for us all not to go down that road. Traitors? That is what the local governors and many citizens called George Washington during the civil war. It will not stop hate to remove the statues. We will always have those who hate, and who feel empowered by embracing that hatred.
As for controlling elections, that is still going on by both Democrats and Republicans. Nothing has changed, but the tactics, and excuses.
This country has a dark side. Terrible things over the years have been done by our governing officials, including paying a bounty for scalps of Native Americans. Kit Carson is just one of many who led a scalping regiment. If you start removing all those who you feel do not represent present ideology, a great deal of our past and history will be obliterated. No, we need to enact strong anti-racist laws and make sure the are enforced. This would include protests as racism is against the law.
As for controlling elections, that is still going on by both Democrats and Republicans. Nothing has changed, but the tactics, and excuses.
This country has a dark side. Terrible things over the years have been done by our governing officials, including paying a bounty for scalps of Native Americans. Kit Carson is just one of many who led a scalping regiment. If you start removing all those who you feel do not represent present ideology, a great deal of our past and history will be obliterated. No, we need to enact strong anti-racist laws and make sure the are enforced. This would include protests as racism is against the law.
While the imagined glory of the Southern past didn't exist for most whites, these white supremacists imagine themselves as being dispossessed of their former superiority. The truth is that they were never superior. If anything they are inferior, so like any bully, they must fight hard to prove their superiority over Jews (most of whom are also white), blacks and others who "came later."
They would do better to become educated, to work hard and to invest in themselves. But it is much easier to complain and whine about others who they imagine have it better.
The Durham folks, in my opinion, were out of line to take matters into their own hands, no more and no less than any lynch mob of old. While their frustration is understandable, they emulated the very people they want to protect themselves against.
What if we let stand in their original places monuments that were erected during or immediately after the Civil War but removed those put up during the Jim Crow era. The latter might be put in a museum where the evils of racism can be taught.
They would do better to become educated, to work hard and to invest in themselves. But it is much easier to complain and whine about others who they imagine have it better.
The Durham folks, in my opinion, were out of line to take matters into their own hands, no more and no less than any lynch mob of old. While their frustration is understandable, they emulated the very people they want to protect themselves against.
What if we let stand in their original places monuments that were erected during or immediately after the Civil War but removed those put up during the Jim Crow era. The latter might be put in a museum where the evils of racism can be taught.
2
Why don't we erect monuments to Pol Pot and Idi Amin on your front lawn? Because it would upset and anger you every day, and nobody wants you to feel victimized. That's the same reason the monuments to slavery and secession must be removed.
1
You don't erect a monument to teach history, dark or otherwise. You teach history with books and documents, where debate and nuance are possible. You erect statues to celebrate your heroes. Some once saw the Confederate struggle as a righteous one, but what we now know about slavery, and the Confederate defense of it, tells us otherwise: it was misconceived at best, and often vile--a national shame. Lee and his confederates were in error and it's time we stopped pretending their cause was noble.
3
You CANNOT change history !
4
Nobody is trying to change history. The confederate attempted secession will always be part of our history. We simply don't need to honor the traitors involved.
2
You CAN right wrongs! I'm sorry if that clashes with your philosophy.
1
These are monuments to traitors; to United State citizens who took up arms against the United States. They denigrate the memory of hundreds of thousands of patriotic Americans who gave their last full measure of devotion to preserve the Unites States and honors the memory of those who, in U.S. Grant's words, "fought for the worst cause there ever was."
3
"White supremacists aren’t the only defenders of these monuments. President Trump on Tuesday criticized efforts to take them down. "
Huh? Are you still in denial about the Dear Leader's real feelings in this arena?
Huh? Are you still in denial about the Dear Leader's real feelings in this arena?
1
Fair enough, but also do not stop there, head up north and remove the monuments and institutions to northern slave traders:
-Faneuil Hall, commissioned by Peter Faneuil (June 20, 1700 – March 3, 1743), who was a merchant and slave trader
-Brown Univ, founded by the Brown brothers, Nicholas, John, Joseph, and Moses, merchants and slave traders
-Yale Univ - President Ezra Stiles was a slave trader.
-As many as six slave merchants served as mayor of Philadelphia.
Do not forget the companies that profited from the slave trade.
-Barclays
-New York Life Insurance Company
-JPMorgan Chase
-USA Today
-Aetna, Inc
-etc
Next -
-remove all monuments to Grant, Sherman & Sheridan, who were brutal to the Plains Indians after these patriots won the Civil War for the Union.
-remove all monuments to Andrew Jackson, who was architect of the trail of tears forced removals of Native American nations from their ancestral homelands in the Southeastern United States to an area west of the Mississippi River.
-Faneuil Hall, commissioned by Peter Faneuil (June 20, 1700 – March 3, 1743), who was a merchant and slave trader
-Brown Univ, founded by the Brown brothers, Nicholas, John, Joseph, and Moses, merchants and slave traders
-Yale Univ - President Ezra Stiles was a slave trader.
-As many as six slave merchants served as mayor of Philadelphia.
Do not forget the companies that profited from the slave trade.
-Barclays
-New York Life Insurance Company
-JPMorgan Chase
-USA Today
-Aetna, Inc
-etc
Next -
-remove all monuments to Grant, Sherman & Sheridan, who were brutal to the Plains Indians after these patriots won the Civil War for the Union.
-remove all monuments to Andrew Jackson, who was architect of the trail of tears forced removals of Native American nations from their ancestral homelands in the Southeastern United States to an area west of the Mississippi River.
6
You think you're kidding, but nearly all these issues must eventually be addressed.
2
To quote Mitch Landrieu, mayor of New Orleans:
Remember, don't revere!
There are so many lessons in these symbols. History should never be turned away from. People can always learn from and about nuances like the ambivalence of Lee (about slavery, sometimes), or the non-slave owning number of "boys in grey." Even comment here renew arguments about the why and how of our terrible war. But the bigger symbols? The social, legal, eceonomic, formal and informal roots of kidnapping and enslavement, and even after Emancipation, ongoing terrorizing, cheating, and oppression of African Americans? Those are the most important lessons. Never forget. Keep learning. Keep the handsome or poignant statues in museums where the sentiment can be put in context. But the time may be here, for each city to decide, to see a cityscape without those particular leaders and soldiers, because of the roots of the regime they stood for. Speaks well of white Americans if they can see this much. It's not much, really. Where do you want to live, and how do you want to explain it to your children? And to their friends of all colors and backgrounds? I know what I'm proud of about this country. I'll be prouder if the statues come down - and are kept, to remind and educate, and so we don't forget.
Remember, don't revere!
There are so many lessons in these symbols. History should never be turned away from. People can always learn from and about nuances like the ambivalence of Lee (about slavery, sometimes), or the non-slave owning number of "boys in grey." Even comment here renew arguments about the why and how of our terrible war. But the bigger symbols? The social, legal, eceonomic, formal and informal roots of kidnapping and enslavement, and even after Emancipation, ongoing terrorizing, cheating, and oppression of African Americans? Those are the most important lessons. Never forget. Keep learning. Keep the handsome or poignant statues in museums where the sentiment can be put in context. But the time may be here, for each city to decide, to see a cityscape without those particular leaders and soldiers, because of the roots of the regime they stood for. Speaks well of white Americans if they can see this much. It's not much, really. Where do you want to live, and how do you want to explain it to your children? And to their friends of all colors and backgrounds? I know what I'm proud of about this country. I'll be prouder if the statues come down - and are kept, to remind and educate, and so we don't forget.
4
I'm surprised that Trump doesn't advocate for the removal of all of the Confederate statues because they honor "the losers," and boy does he hate the losers.
3
You have to start with Capitol Hill.
1
Republicans in Congress, our nation turns its lonely eyes to you. Now is your moment. Americans of good will need for you to step up, and will support you when you do. Just do it. Now. Before this dangerous degenerate and nascent tyrant in the White House damages our great country beyond repair. Please!
2
Retaining the monuments teaches no lessons and obscures history since it gives vanquished white supremacy its noble statue--and so creates a confusion about the actual outcome of the Civil War: statues are for victors, heroes, and victims, and Robert E. Lee was none of the above. I say let the horses stand, however! They are beautifully sculpted. Tear down the rider.
1
You're right. I have never met a horse who wanted to deny affordable healthcare or voting rights or a public education to millions of other horses. Horses are good people.
2
Should we tear down monuments to Andrew Jackson and William Henry Harrison for their parts in the wars against the Indians - I mean Native Americans?
How about Woodrow Wilson for his bigotry?
How about FDR for what he did to Japanese Americans?
Rewriting the past and figuring out what to keep and what to erase and what to bring back after the erasing requires a huge bureaucracy. Let's call it the Ministry of Truth.
How about Woodrow Wilson for his bigotry?
How about FDR for what he did to Japanese Americans?
Rewriting the past and figuring out what to keep and what to erase and what to bring back after the erasing requires a huge bureaucracy. Let's call it the Ministry of Truth.
6
What do we do about plaques honoring Judah Benjamin America's first Jewish senator and CSA Secretary of State?
Rewriting history is not easy.
Rewriting history is not easy.
1
The following slaveholders are on our currency: Washington, Jefferson, Jackson, and Franklin.
Grant too, but he freed his slaves.
Do we have to change the currency, too?
Grant too, but he freed his slaves.
Do we have to change the currency, too?
1
Blah, blah, blah...so which is it you whiney confederates?
One second you clowns proclaim the superiority of the white race the next all we hear is how you poor whiney confederate losers are unable to keep up with Mexicans, Asians, African Americans, women or pretty much anything else that lives and breathes.
Sorry Cletus and Ellie Mae, y'all can't have it both ways.
Besides, after watching the videos of the Charlotte tragedy, all I saw at the rally were fat, doughy, white losers unwilling to put in the effort it takes to survive in this high tech, multicultural country.
Dear white supremacist trash: grow up, clean up and catch up.
One second you clowns proclaim the superiority of the white race the next all we hear is how you poor whiney confederate losers are unable to keep up with Mexicans, Asians, African Americans, women or pretty much anything else that lives and breathes.
Sorry Cletus and Ellie Mae, y'all can't have it both ways.
Besides, after watching the videos of the Charlotte tragedy, all I saw at the rally were fat, doughy, white losers unwilling to put in the effort it takes to survive in this high tech, multicultural country.
Dear white supremacist trash: grow up, clean up and catch up.
3
Can I tear down FDR's statue because of what he did to Japanese Americans?
5
India was ruled by the British for over two centuries and as one can imagine, there were many grand statues of the Viceroys and Governors and such all over India. After India's independence in 1947, the Indian administration started slowly removing these statues and, in many cases, replacing them with statues of Indian heroes of independence or of other areas of achievements.
What did they do with the old statues? They were not ground up and used as road building material or such. No, they were simply stored away in park-like storage areas, where passers by can still see them and maybe try to identify them, simply for the sake of remembering history. In Kolkata, one of the most majestic features of the city landscape is the Victoria Memorial, which in some ways resembles the famous Taj Mahal in Agra, India.
Of course, there is no doubt that the British didn't quite treat the real 'Indians' as badly as the whites in America treated the native Indians and the imported African slaves. And as such, the Indians do not harbor any extreme hatred for the departed British. In fact, they have quite a cordial relationship with them.
What did they do with the old statues? They were not ground up and used as road building material or such. No, they were simply stored away in park-like storage areas, where passers by can still see them and maybe try to identify them, simply for the sake of remembering history. In Kolkata, one of the most majestic features of the city landscape is the Victoria Memorial, which in some ways resembles the famous Taj Mahal in Agra, India.
Of course, there is no doubt that the British didn't quite treat the real 'Indians' as badly as the whites in America treated the native Indians and the imported African slaves. And as such, the Indians do not harbor any extreme hatred for the departed British. In fact, they have quite a cordial relationship with them.
3
The British did not impose slavery or Jim Crow laws on Indians — why are you trying to change the subject and obscure this real and important American issue?
1
India chose to change the heroes on its monuments when the oppressive government they represented was gone. The suggestion is that Southern cities - which at one time wished to memorialize the CSA and the Lost Cause, but now may not, do likewise. It's a reasonable example/parallel. Relax, no one is obscuring anything.
The men memorialized by these statues had their US citizenship restored after the Civil War, as did most of the troops who served under them. Some ran for and won political office. Many worked for reconciliation during Reconstruction. The US government and the Military they fought forgave them.
There is now a movement for criminal justice reform that includes restoration of franchise and other rights to former felons, aka "returning citizens," including "ban the box," and other initiatives, for those who have paid their debts to society.
Odd that forgiveness can be urged for some while eternal damnation is sought for others.
There is now a movement for criminal justice reform that includes restoration of franchise and other rights to former felons, aka "returning citizens," including "ban the box," and other initiatives, for those who have paid their debts to society.
Odd that forgiveness can be urged for some while eternal damnation is sought for others.
4
Restored citizenship, mercy and forgiveness turned out to be the single biggest mistake the Union ever made. Look around; at least half of the old Confederacy doesn't even know it lost the war.
2
The South lost? Who knew?
1
In the years 1861-65 the conflict that is now commonly referred to as the "Civil War" and which Southern revisionists cynically refer to as the "War of Northern Aggression" was actually called the "War of Southern Treason." And so it was - a treasonous rebellion intended to perpetuate human slavery. Robert E. Lee was a traitor. So was Stonewall Jackson. As was Jefferson Davis. The Confederacy is part of our nation's history, but it should not be part of our heritage. Heritage implies something worthy of respect and admiration, and the Confederacy was perversion and abomination. The monuments to Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis and other traitors are nothing more than an attempt to let non-whites know who controls the reins of power. I look forward to the day when they're all removed from public view.
4
What about Confederate monuments which are located **on** the grounds of U.S. National Park Service Military Historical Parks such as Gettysburg?
1
Those monuments are of the major figures of those battles: Gettysburg, Antietam, etc.
Their places in those parks are part of the battles' narratives.
Their places in those parks are part of the battles' narratives.
There's a lot of picking and choosing of history going on in this article. That aside, there are three points I'd like to make. One: Racial supremacists are vile, despicable people. Two: These are statues. They're not hurting anybody. They can't, because they're inanimate objects. Three: Have we really nothing better to do than argue about statues? While we waste our time and energy on this, climate change is proceeding apace. Trump is trying to defund the Affordable Care Act. That ridiculous wall is inching closer to reality. Our position of leadership in the international community is crumbling. People here at home are suffering in all manner of real, actual ways that have nothing to do with statues. And the Tweeter-in-Chief is engaging in a nuclear hang-off with one of the few world leaders who's as thin-skinned, childish, tiny, bombastic and intellectually feeble as himself. How about we agree to ignore the statues until we've done something about our actual problems?
5
I think if you were one of the "targets" of these memorials you'd be a bit more concerned with this issue.
2
Because any excuse to deliver a righteous "poke in the eye" to people who don't share one's opinion is too tempting, I guess.
I agree with you completely, by the way. But, in my opinion, much of the "discourse" is an example of opposing hatred with more hatred.
I agree with you completely, by the way. But, in my opinion, much of the "discourse" is an example of opposing hatred with more hatred.
2
I think you've raised the possibility of something more sinister afoot, Bill. Armed hate groups and mobs are real. Statues are rarely armed and never real. Really.
2
If anyone votes for a racist, they are racist. If anyone supports Jew hating, Black loathing, Hispanic hating racists, they are racists.
It is more than the Confederate statues.
Sessions continues to surreptitiously dismantle hard fought Civil Rights and deny minorities protection and progress.
While the so called Leader of our country, Trump, comes out in FULL support of racist Nazi's and the Klan.
People ascribe bluster and missteps to Trump. He was unequivocal yesterday. Monuments or not. We have a RACIST or at best, a NAZI sympathizer in the White House. Whether the monuments stand or go, the mission of racial hatred, represented by those defeated generals of the confedracy, has been provided Trump's seal of approval.
This is a TERRIBLE era in our history.
It is more than the Confederate statues.
Sessions continues to surreptitiously dismantle hard fought Civil Rights and deny minorities protection and progress.
While the so called Leader of our country, Trump, comes out in FULL support of racist Nazi's and the Klan.
People ascribe bluster and missteps to Trump. He was unequivocal yesterday. Monuments or not. We have a RACIST or at best, a NAZI sympathizer in the White House. Whether the monuments stand or go, the mission of racial hatred, represented by those defeated generals of the confedracy, has been provided Trump's seal of approval.
This is a TERRIBLE era in our history.
1
It's not "either-or" in the case of the so-called president. He IS a racist, as was his father before him. They were sued by the Federal government for refusing to rent to African-Americans.
To correlate it to everyday life: imagine your ex-husband beat your kids, kicked the dog, and stole your money. Eventually, you get remarried to better man and you start a new life together. However, for some reason, you insist on keeping a framed photo of your ex-husband front and center in the house.
2
Leave these statues alone. Let the dead bury their dead.
4
Your remarks are incoherent. Who is burying statues?
The Taliban blew up Budhha statutes at Bamiyan in March 2001. Gone forever. They were majestic gateways build around 544 AD on the Silk Route, entrance way to an advanced civilization that once flourished. It was a sad reminder to humanity of what Islamists have done. It wasn't the first time these statues were struck. And Islamists systematically destroyed idols of gods and goddesses in temples and monasteries, defaced idols they couldn't destroy. Perhaps a reminder of Buddha's teaching of impermanence.
The confederate statues remind us of our mistakes of the past. Its time to remove them. They had their moment in the sun, now they can retreat to a museum, to be studied by students of history.
The confederate statues remind us of our mistakes of the past. Its time to remove them. They had their moment in the sun, now they can retreat to a museum, to be studied by students of history.
2
there isn't a single civilization in history that erected statues for the vanquished. the vanquished are cemetery food, nothing more. they are the losers of armed conflict. there is no Hitler park. Heck even Russia denies Stalin now. why would America in all it's enlightenment go against the march of history and think now humans have evolved to the point where treasonous men can be elevated and revered forever. THEY LOST they LOSE out on history. bye bye losers.
4
To be exercised over inanimate objects of dubious artistic merit is a huge waste of everyone's energy. Let's look at the fruits of racism in a large American city, shall we? What happens daily in Chicago is also a stain on our nation: black-on-black homicide that occurs unchecked and unbridled; black people selling huge amounts of smack and crack that they bought in turn from the Latino cartel-owned drug gangs. When we have addressed these intractable issues of race, in which one sees a spirit of self-entitlement and revenge, then maybe we can also rip down those symbols of racism: the remaining housing projects, the ghettos and the barrios.
5
Maybe we need a "Confederacy Museum" to tell the story of this sorry chapter in our history, just as the Holocaust Museum tells the story of the horrors of the Third Reich. It could be located in Richmond and would be curated by real historians (no apologists, please), who would tell in detail and with exhibits the story of how the slave-holders of the South took their region into secession and civil war in order to preserve their "peculiar institution," i.e., slavery. We need to remember that most of our pre-Civil War presidents and most of the justices of the Supreme Court were slave owners. Slavery had also existed in the North until the 1820s. The South's real crime was not slavery, but attempted secession: the breaking of the "sacred bonds" that held the nation together; a nation based on the proposition that "all men are created equal." We have a president who would have been quite comfortable with Wallace, H. Ross Barnett, Sen. Bilbo, and "Pitchfork" Ben Tillman. He would have a place in this museum: the last of the "Redeemers."
3
Vast majority of these municipally sited statutes are in support of the un American segregationist South. An Aunt took me to the then current diorama of the burning of Atlanta. Didn't have much thought about it being a West Coast Disneyland kind of kid. As an adult have come to the conclusion that Sherman didn't finish his job. The real question is whether and when we will emerge from the legacy of plantation Slave Power.
Denial and repression are crucial to the psychic makeup of Southern culture. Those who were personally responsible for the inhumanity and the crude, immoral abominations of chattel slavery could not admit their guilt even to themselves, precisely because that guilt was so huge and earth-shaking.
Psychologically unable to register their own buried guilt, then, the slaveowning white South put that guilt upon black people, labeling blacks with every imaginable human corruption from laziness to deceitfulness to savagery and rape. Thus racism was born, and thus the Southern white "heritage" was constructed as clean and honorable and free from any human flaw.
Whether this racist labeling of blacks was conscious or unconscious is not as important as the result of this labeling, which still persists in our national prejudice toward blacks. Our prejudices do resemble the Nazis' labeling of the Jews, as their "justification" for savagery and mass homicide.
Conversely, the Confederate statues represent the fervent wish of white Southerners and now whites in general to claim the greatest share of moral virtue and civility and graciousness. That is a dream. It is time for us all to wake up.
Psychologically unable to register their own buried guilt, then, the slaveowning white South put that guilt upon black people, labeling blacks with every imaginable human corruption from laziness to deceitfulness to savagery and rape. Thus racism was born, and thus the Southern white "heritage" was constructed as clean and honorable and free from any human flaw.
Whether this racist labeling of blacks was conscious or unconscious is not as important as the result of this labeling, which still persists in our national prejudice toward blacks. Our prejudices do resemble the Nazis' labeling of the Jews, as their "justification" for savagery and mass homicide.
Conversely, the Confederate statues represent the fervent wish of white Southerners and now whites in general to claim the greatest share of moral virtue and civility and graciousness. That is a dream. It is time for us all to wake up.
1
If you are a supporter of Donald Trump, will you come out and unequivocally support Trump's statement from Monday:
"Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."
If you are a Trump supporter can you say that you agree with that?
"Racism is evil, and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs, including the KKK, neo-Nazis, white supremacists and other hate groups that are repugnant to everything we hold dear as Americans."
If you are a Trump supporter can you say that you agree with that?
They are our history just as Auschwitz is history. What is required is a context to this sad, deplorable time in our short history. Put them in a museum, talk about the damage the supremacy had on the people of the time and after.... Don't ignore or deny it.
1
This frenzy to take down Civil War monuments is the folly of the narrow minded and uninformed. To do so would be to surrender to a crazed and ignorant mob. This country has enough problems now without going down that road.
4
Charlottesville --
named after Charlotte, Queen Consort to George III of the UK,
who ruled not only the 13 colonies from New Hampshire to Georgia (named, btw, after George II, the father of George III) but also over British colonies world-wide.
So, let's just erase all names that smack of colonialism, or anything else that was once common during a different period of human history, but no longer is.
named after Charlotte, Queen Consort to George III of the UK,
who ruled not only the 13 colonies from New Hampshire to Georgia (named, btw, after George II, the father of George III) but also over British colonies world-wide.
So, let's just erase all names that smack of colonialism, or anything else that was once common during a different period of human history, but no longer is.
2
I guess it's true, even though I think I'm smart enough to actually understand. If you are not black and have not lived the black experience, you can not possibly understand.
Slavery,goes back to the Bible, are we to discard the Bible because it seemed to condone slavery, among the Israelites, true it was limited & civil more like am apprenticeship ,but still slavery.Washington & Jefferson were unabashed Slave owners. In both cases their cash crop was cotton, which required tedious ,painful labor to pick. No one in the colonies wanted to do the work , much like the Illegals that pick our produce today.Thus the demand for slaves that were made to do the work..Jefferson looked upon them as sub creatures which, didn’t prevent him from having a Child conceived by one of his slaves.During this time there were abolitionists like John Adams who denounced the practice, so they knew better.
The question arises should we throw these two so called patriarchs, into the trash heap of slavery.Jefferson who wrote our Constitution, & Washington who is considered the father of our Nation.I believe not, if only the perfect had a right to be idealized there would not be any monuments, or for that matter the Bible or History Books.If the truth be known most of the soldiers that fought for the Confederacy were poor dirt farmers & could not afford a slave.They did not fight for slavery they fought for their State. In those days you considered yourself A Virginian ,not as an American, this is what led us to a Civil War. Lee did not fight for slavery, he fought for States Rights & considered himself a Virginian, first & foremost.
The question arises should we throw these two so called patriarchs, into the trash heap of slavery.Jefferson who wrote our Constitution, & Washington who is considered the father of our Nation.I believe not, if only the perfect had a right to be idealized there would not be any monuments, or for that matter the Bible or History Books.If the truth be known most of the soldiers that fought for the Confederacy were poor dirt farmers & could not afford a slave.They did not fight for slavery they fought for their State. In those days you considered yourself A Virginian ,not as an American, this is what led us to a Civil War. Lee did not fight for slavery, he fought for States Rights & considered himself a Virginian, first & foremost.
3
You, and numerous others, continue to try to find a moral equivalence between our nation's founders and those who fought to destroy that nation. The issue is not slavery, per se, it is the adulation of those who would destroy the nation in order to preserve it.
3
Bill,
I didn't expect much support for my comment, but don't twist my words, & lets not be hypocritical. Where in my comments do you see a moral equivalent to what occurred in Charlottesville.
Like you i am deeply upset over the vile conduct of the Nazi's & Racists, but it doesn't take away from History & the truth.Nor does it mean that Lee approved of slavery, or was fighting to support it.Lee was a Virginian & fought against his class mates at West Point.Not because he hated them but he felt obligated to defend his home.Making him A sympathizer & supporter of slavery is playing into the hands of the despicable.Even the Federal Government excused him & did not indict him.
I didn't expect much support for my comment, but don't twist my words, & lets not be hypocritical. Where in my comments do you see a moral equivalent to what occurred in Charlottesville.
Like you i am deeply upset over the vile conduct of the Nazi's & Racists, but it doesn't take away from History & the truth.Nor does it mean that Lee approved of slavery, or was fighting to support it.Lee was a Virginian & fought against his class mates at West Point.Not because he hated them but he felt obligated to defend his home.Making him A sympathizer & supporter of slavery is playing into the hands of the despicable.Even the Federal Government excused him & did not indict him.
1
Lee was a butcher who led his troops to slaughter in a war that was an act of treason. Nothing Lee ever did deserves the adulation he receives from neo-Nazies and domestic terrorists.
1
@hankypanky,
You must be referring to Grant in the Wilderness who was willing to sacrifice huge numbers of soldiers to exhaust Lee.
You must be referring to Grant in the Wilderness who was willing to sacrifice huge numbers of soldiers to exhaust Lee.
1
Trump is ignorant, lacks critical thinking, & has a black hole where knowledge of history should be. Which is why he can say something as stupid as statues of Washington or Jefferson are next. Those Presidents were deeply flawed certainly, but they each contributed incredibly to the beginning & sustaining of our new nation. On the other hand, Lee, Jackson, Davis, etc. fought to guarantee the enslavement of fellow American human beings, & they willingly fought a war of secession rather than give up their slaves. The two groups of (white) men are the personification of dichotomy, & it is dangerous to ever confuse the two. Confederate monuments indeed MUST fall.
3
Why do we need pointlessly placed confederate monuments to remind us of the past? That's what books are for. Read Shelby Foote if you like civil war history.
Monuments go on battlefields or museums, ok?
I'm glad the author pointed out that white elites use dumb poor whites and then never give them a piece of the spoils! Just like the leaders of Nazi Germany did!
Also, the Germans don't have statues of Heydrich or Franz Stangel prominently displayed to remind THEM of their terrible past. So why would we need confederate monuments? Check and mate.
Monuments go on battlefields or museums, ok?
I'm glad the author pointed out that white elites use dumb poor whites and then never give them a piece of the spoils! Just like the leaders of Nazi Germany did!
Also, the Germans don't have statues of Heydrich or Franz Stangel prominently displayed to remind THEM of their terrible past. So why would we need confederate monuments? Check and mate.
2
Condi Rice, no racist, is against removing the monuments,
because it rattles the cage, does not defeat Trump.
FOCUS PLEASE ON DEFEATING TRUMP.
true leadership is in bringing all the demographics together,
not setting one against the other.
because it rattles the cage, does not defeat Trump.
FOCUS PLEASE ON DEFEATING TRUMP.
true leadership is in bringing all the demographics together,
not setting one against the other.
3
The "heritage not hate" argument is totally blown out of the water by the marchers in Charlottesville using Nazi symbols and chanting "Jews will not replace us." What does the swastika have to do with Southern heritage? The Jews of the South were more integrated into their communities than the Jews of the North; there was less anti-Semitism in the south and even the secretary of defense of the South was Jewish.
If there was ever any ambiguity before, the Charlottesville March clearly demonstrates hate not heritage.
If there was ever any ambiguity before, the Charlottesville March clearly demonstrates hate not heritage.
1
Another question? Where is the very Christian Vice President Pence in all this. Not so Christian after all. In fact, where is the man in general? Haven't seen or heard from him in months. Like so many around him, he is nothing but a sycophant and a hypocrite.
1
I've spotted something more dangerous than racist whites: non-racist whites who sit by and say, do nothing while these supremacists commit evil acts in their name. What happened in Charlottesville was done in the name of WHITE PEOPLE- it is, never was good enough to say "I'm white and I do not have a racist bone in my body." That may true and nice but it does nothing to destroy the foundation of racial terror done in your name. When a so-called Muslim plants a bomb and kills people, all Muslims are deemed bad. When a black person steals or shoots someone, all blacks are bad. But if a white person commits domestic racial terrorism, the vast majority of whites get to keep their innocence and say "Well, it wasn't me." Dylan Roof killed those nine churchgoers IN YOUR NAME- it is time those decent white folks out there take a stand, come out from there safe corners in America and do what is RIGHT. We black and brown folks need your help because we cannot stop this evil alone.
2
For those who claim Confederate monuments should remain standing because they're "part of our history," the answer is simple: We put up monuments to people and ideas we admire and want to honor. There is nothing admirable or honorable about working to preserve the slavery of one race by another. Lee Harvey Oswald is an indelible part of American history, one that will forever be remembered, but there are no statues of him in public areas. Likewise, if you travel to Germany, I doubt you'll be able to find a statue of Adolf Hitler. Many issues in the social discourse are genuinely nuanced and complicated, but this one is a no-brainer.
2
Confederate monuments must fall for the same reason we do not erect statues to Hitler and his generals.
1
I understand how people feel about knocking down the confederate statues but almost every " new regime does that. But really why erase the truth? We were a slave owning country. Looking that in the face is important so do people think by removing the evidence racists will vanish? They have always been around. I don't have the answer to changing people. I was quite shocked years ago when I discovered that so many Americans are racists and white supremicists but it might change when white people become the minority the world over in a few years.. It would be nice if white people can recognize their precarious position. Race is so unimportant it did do show up on DNA. Really think about that. It means nothing.
But to deny our history is ridiculous.
But to deny our history is ridiculous.
2
Robert:
Your argument sounds good, but it is like telling Germans that it is OK to have statues of Adolph Hitler in cities around Germany. He was a historical figure, but you will get no support for putting him in front of children and young people as someone to look up to. Our Civil War was the worst war in which Americans fought, brother against brother in many instances. We have yet to erase all the racism that it represented. Just as our president tries to argue that there are two sides to every question, can we honestly say that there were two sides to the Holocaust? We need to get together and get rid of racism in our society.
Your argument sounds good, but it is like telling Germans that it is OK to have statues of Adolph Hitler in cities around Germany. He was a historical figure, but you will get no support for putting him in front of children and young people as someone to look up to. Our Civil War was the worst war in which Americans fought, brother against brother in many instances. We have yet to erase all the racism that it represented. Just as our president tries to argue that there are two sides to every question, can we honestly say that there were two sides to the Holocaust? We need to get together and get rid of racism in our society.
I wonder what you think of the Jefferson Davis Presidential Library in Biloxi, Mississippi?
The lost cause these monuments represent, and those who foam at the mouth and worse to keep them, are really beside the point. Our entire way of life, based on mindless oblivious consumerism, big vehicles guzzling petrochemicals, airplanes packed with people on some idiotic unnecessary trip that is serving only to degrade an already doomed environment, these are the issues that affect everyone regardless of their contrived problems of race, ethnicity and geography...
1
I nominate the larger than life confederate soldier placed on a massive pedestal near the main entrance to the University of North Carolina.
I also nominate the symbolically horrific installation "honoring" the slaves who helped build the university. The small bronze slaves straining to hold up a rock table have shiny rubbed spots on their bodies where students rest their feet when sitting at benches conveniently placed around the assemblage.
UNC knows exactly what these pieces teach their students. Remove them.
I also nominate the symbolically horrific installation "honoring" the slaves who helped build the university. The small bronze slaves straining to hold up a rock table have shiny rubbed spots on their bodies where students rest their feet when sitting at benches conveniently placed around the assemblage.
UNC knows exactly what these pieces teach their students. Remove them.
Just another fundraiser for the DNC. The GOP is just as bad.
1
Around me I see Confederate battle flags ... in windows, on license plates, on head scarves, flying on porches. It has always disgusted me. The Confederacy started a war that killed over 400,000 Americans, North and South, more than the total of all American lives lost in all other wars in history. Most, like Robert E. Lee, joined their side on behalf of their state's allegiance. Most, like all war-dead, were the ignorant, innocent victims of their supposed leaders' vanity, egos, wealth, religious propensity and policy, all set in a selfish show that somehow excused itself. This show has been the background for giving war, sacrifice and deaths in the US's participation and initiation of all but three or four of our country's conflicts. Vietnam? Afghanistan? Iraq? If any of these "leader"-egomaniacs had had any talent at all, they would have learned to bring people together instead of fueling their hate for self-benefit. Democracy (it's a wealth-driven republic, by the way)? Constitutional law? Humanity? Who and where are YOU?
Robert E. Lee might well have been a great man.....had he remained at his post in the Union Army. He chose, instead, to commit treason, turned his back on his oath to the Constitution and the Nation, and led a force whose purpose was the destruction of the United States of America.
Then, on top of all that, he lost.
He, and Davis and all the rest, should have been hanged.
Confederate soldiers should not have been allowed to keep their arms and their land, they should have been treated as the traitors, enemies, and losers that they were.
I have said that the confederate flag is as repulsive to me as the nazi flag, now it seems they are joined into one symbol of anti American hatred.
And that unity of hatred is being praised by the President of the United States and Commander in Chief of the Army of the Potomac. If his loyalty to Putin and Russia were not treasonous this surely is.
Then, on top of all that, he lost.
He, and Davis and all the rest, should have been hanged.
Confederate soldiers should not have been allowed to keep their arms and their land, they should have been treated as the traitors, enemies, and losers that they were.
I have said that the confederate flag is as repulsive to me as the nazi flag, now it seems they are joined into one symbol of anti American hatred.
And that unity of hatred is being praised by the President of the United States and Commander in Chief of the Army of the Potomac. If his loyalty to Putin and Russia were not treasonous this surely is.
1
Edmund Burke was correct. "Those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it".
The legacy of slavery is a part of our history --
The Civil War is a part of our history --
KKK is a part of our history --
ALL OF THESE EVENTS ARE EVIL --
The challenge for us is to not shrink from that history but to learn from it and move forward united by our confidence that "all men are created equal" -- entitled to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".
That said, give Robert E. Lee his due -- move his statue from the US Capitol to his home at Arlington with an explanation of how he came to lose that home.
Move Lee's statute from U of V to the Gettysburg battlefield with sufficient explanation.
Or better yet to Petersburg, VA along with the explanation of a tragic, and unnecessary, loss of life.
But, MORE URGENT than removing Lee from his cement pedestals, let's invoke the 25th Amendment to the US Constitution and remove Donald Trump from the White House. He is unfit to occupy the Oval Office.
Trump has lost all moral authority to participate in governing the most powerful and free country in the history of the world.
The legacy of slavery is a part of our history --
The Civil War is a part of our history --
KKK is a part of our history --
ALL OF THESE EVENTS ARE EVIL --
The challenge for us is to not shrink from that history but to learn from it and move forward united by our confidence that "all men are created equal" -- entitled to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".
That said, give Robert E. Lee his due -- move his statue from the US Capitol to his home at Arlington with an explanation of how he came to lose that home.
Move Lee's statute from U of V to the Gettysburg battlefield with sufficient explanation.
Or better yet to Petersburg, VA along with the explanation of a tragic, and unnecessary, loss of life.
But, MORE URGENT than removing Lee from his cement pedestals, let's invoke the 25th Amendment to the US Constitution and remove Donald Trump from the White House. He is unfit to occupy the Oval Office.
Trump has lost all moral authority to participate in governing the most powerful and free country in the history of the world.
The eyes of individuals needn't be fixed on a statue in order to entertain their bigotry or idiocy. Shall we ban everything that shows Nazi symbols or customs while we're at it, that will surely put the History channel out of business.
A website will replace a statue or a bumper sticker or a bad idea implanted into an intellectually lazy or slow mind.
The Republican party has been bottom feeding for a while now, dragging what was once laughed at as sheer nonsense into the limelight once again, finding an unlikely accomplice in the media which relays this absolutely dizzying garbage all day long.
Enough of this symbolic posturing and enough of this sanitizing history out of its context which is nothing but an imposture.
If you want true results, fight the party, not the cult.
A website will replace a statue or a bumper sticker or a bad idea implanted into an intellectually lazy or slow mind.
The Republican party has been bottom feeding for a while now, dragging what was once laughed at as sheer nonsense into the limelight once again, finding an unlikely accomplice in the media which relays this absolutely dizzying garbage all day long.
Enough of this symbolic posturing and enough of this sanitizing history out of its context which is nothing but an imposture.
If you want true results, fight the party, not the cult.
Could you leave the male part out of the supremacy equation? A white female majority voted for Trump and probably supported the white male supremacists of yesterday. Just saying
1
I have a different approach to the Confederate monuments. When the French put up monuments to Nazi collaborators, when the Norwegians put up a statue of Quisling, and when we put up statues glorifying Benedict Arnold's contribution to the Revolution, then we can justifiably put up monuments to traitors. Not before.
If the statues of Virginian Confederate leaders had been accompanied by statues of the officers from Virginia who fought bravely on the Union side, they would have meant something else. If the statues of the brave Confederate soldiers had been joined by statues of the brave black Virginians who fought in the Union army (and were braver than their Johnny Reb counterparts because if their side lost a battle they risked being massacred rather than taken prisoner), the statues would have meant something else -- what Confederate sympathizers have claimed they meant.
The fact that these other statues do not and have never existed discloses the true meaning of the Confederate statues that were erected and the deliberate self-deception and hypocrisy of those who erected them. Their purpose was to gloss over and conceal the fact that the Civil War was about slavery, in order to create an image for themselves and the nation that would allow the South to institute and perpetuate Jim Crow, the most achievable substitute for the slavery they had lost.
The fact that these other statues do not and have never existed discloses the true meaning of the Confederate statues that were erected and the deliberate self-deception and hypocrisy of those who erected them. Their purpose was to gloss over and conceal the fact that the Civil War was about slavery, in order to create an image for themselves and the nation that would allow the South to institute and perpetuate Jim Crow, the most achievable substitute for the slavery they had lost.
1
In today's Times is a piece on Fawn Weaver's investigation and celebration of the black master distiller, Nearest Green, who has never before been credited with his excellent work and mentoring of Jack Daniels. How many of us knew about the brilliant black women engineers and mathematicians who were instrumental in NASA's efforts to launch John Glenn into orbit before the movie "Hidden Figures." Perhaps the approach we most need is to begin erecting more statues and memorials to the forgotten history of black Americans who are seldom and often never adequately credited for their contributions to American life. There are simply very few aspects of our American culture to which African Americans have not significantly contributed. It is certainly time to recognize their essential presence in the fabric that is America. What better way is there for children, of every color and creed, to learn of the greatness of black Americans in our history and emblazon in our collective consciousness the equality of all human beings?
2
Karen Cox apparently believes in revisionist history. I don't. Should Germany remove all traces of every Nazi prison camp? We need these painful reminders of terrible events of the past so that they will NEVER be forgotten and hopefully NEVER be repeated. I just can't understand why anyone would want to just sweep these reminders under the carpet. While our generation has no responsibility for the actions of our forefathers before slaves were freed, we should not be allowed to no longer feel ashamed about it.
3
Nazi camps are presented as Chambers of Horror, while Confederate monuments are presented as images of heros. Is that distinction not clear to you? Obviously it is not. it was not clear to Dylan Roof either. For that reason, these monuments must be recast and brought down.
3
Sorry, but no. We do not live in a patriarchy, America has very very few actual "white supremacists", the President has not unleashed a wave of 'domestic terrorists', and we do not need to go smashing 100yr old statues to satisfy your hysterical need to take political scalps.
The left needs boogeymen because they can't actually win in the real world of ideas. So instead they raise the specter of the past and pretend we're haunted by confederate ghosts. It would be silly if their mania wasn't actually causing violence and mayhem in the streets.
Please stop, take a deep breath, and read this:
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/
The left needs boogeymen because they can't actually win in the real world of ideas. So instead they raise the specter of the past and pretend we're haunted by confederate ghosts. It would be silly if their mania wasn't actually causing violence and mayhem in the streets.
Please stop, take a deep breath, and read this:
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/
4
Thank you for posting this link. This is an incredible piece - well researched and well written - perhaps the most objective piece I have ever read on how out of control people's beliefs are about many issues and how the media hysterically fuels these beliefs. I found the author to be highly credible. Again, thank you for posting.
2
It really depends on how one views these statues. If you feel it "glorifies" then yes it's offensive. But if it's just a relic, a reminder, of a difficult and ugly period in the history of a developing nation then it can actually serve a purpose. The writer briefly touches on this. I'm not sure it should be dismissed so quickly.
1
I did not see one mention of Obama, yet it seems to me that he started this race war and now walks away without blame. I opinion that Obama started this "uprising" and while you can point to Trump and call him a "disgrace", you need to aim the spotlight at Obama to see the place he put this country in. When will this stop? President Trump asked, when will Washington and Jefferson's statues come down because they owned slaves; certainly a norm of the times for the rich and well-to-do.
We need to stop this acceptance of violence to prove our point of what we think is right. We all have a right to say and act as we believe, but we don't have the right to damage and hurt others in the process. Let's prove ourselves better than the hate that our prior "leader" put upon us.
We need to stop this acceptance of violence to prove our point of what we think is right. We all have a right to say and act as we believe, but we don't have the right to damage and hurt others in the process. Let's prove ourselves better than the hate that our prior "leader" put upon us.
5
I agree with those who don't want to demolish America's civil war history. So I propose a solution: let's pull down the monuments to those who fought for slavery and replace them with those who fought for freedom.
For every statue of Lee, a statue of Grant. For every statue of Jackson, a statue of Sherman. Where there's a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, tear it down and replace it with a monument to the US soldiers he massacred at Fort Pillow after they had surrendered.
No more monuments to traitors.
For every statue of Lee, a statue of Grant. For every statue of Jackson, a statue of Sherman. Where there's a statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest, tear it down and replace it with a monument to the US soldiers he massacred at Fort Pillow after they had surrendered.
No more monuments to traitors.
2
Democrats, frustrated with their rapidly declining political power are going berserk and frantically lashing out at their perceived enemies by destroying Confederate monuments. This effort is just "keeping hate alive" and is totally ineffective in betterment of the lives of black residents. Cities in the north without any Confederate monuments have worse racial relations and living conditions for blacks. Just look at Chicago, LA, New York.
5
Why must these monuments fall - must we behave like the ISIS or Taliban? They are a reminder of what this country was at a certain point in time - good, bad or indifferent. The South has come a long way since the Civil War. To be sure, slavery was despicable, but we need to move on now and learn from the past. To claim these leaders were traitors from todays perspective is not to understand the complex period in which they lived. US Grant never called RE Lee a traitor. So why should we?
3
One of the most racist acts of the 20th century was perpetrated by Franklin Delano Roosevelt, a well-respected Democrat who is honored with the FDR Memorial in Washington D.C.
2
"Confederate monuments have always been symbols of white supremacy. The heyday of monument building, between 1890 and 1920, was also a time of extreme racial violence..."
Racist bigots demand that their white supremacist monuments be preserved.
Remember the "Master Race" statues in Germany? Alt-right thugs think they're the United States' "master race."
And Trump thinks they're "fine people."
Racist bigots demand that their white supremacist monuments be preserved.
Remember the "Master Race" statues in Germany? Alt-right thugs think they're the United States' "master race."
And Trump thinks they're "fine people."
Donald Trump has no choice but to defend those who protested the removal of a statue of Robert E. Lee. He badly needs the support of his base, those lumped together as "deplorables" by Hillary Clinton. I don't believe that all who voted for Trump were necessarily deplorable, but a study, easily found by Google, showed that a majority of Trump voters believe that blacks have not evolved as far as whites. If those racists are not deplorable, I don't know who is. If Trump loses them, he has lost over half of his shrinking base.
The longer symbols of our past divisions remain in public circulation, maintained at general tax expense from bitterly divided tax payers, the more likely the symbols, such as Confederate military monuments in public squares, will generate ever more bitter political protests by future divided taxpayers. The descendants of African American slaves, all now taxpaying citizens, ought to have the right to refuse paying state taxes for the maintenance of local state funded statues honoring military traitors fighting to keep African Americans enslaved.
Federally funded national monuments paid by federal taxes however are a national consensus matter. Since Americans (with some exceptions) are a fair minded people, why not add statues of Native American, native Hawaiian, South West Mexican War leaders and even British revolutionary war traitors ----say, Loyalist (now Canadian) military leaders and traitor Benedict Arnold ----who heroically fought American land grabs alongside statues of Confederate leaders in our D.C. Capitol? That way we can all be united in supporting our history of political division. E pluribus unum, after all.
Federally funded national monuments paid by federal taxes however are a national consensus matter. Since Americans (with some exceptions) are a fair minded people, why not add statues of Native American, native Hawaiian, South West Mexican War leaders and even British revolutionary war traitors ----say, Loyalist (now Canadian) military leaders and traitor Benedict Arnold ----who heroically fought American land grabs alongside statues of Confederate leaders in our D.C. Capitol? That way we can all be united in supporting our history of political division. E pluribus unum, after all.
If the monuments are allowed to stay, I could, almost, approve if the following plaque gets added to each monument:
"This statue is here to remind us of a very dark time in our history. It is here so that current day racists can commemorate rich slave owners or other wealthy aristocrats who benefitted from America's slave trade. It also memorializes the poor white soldiers who were duped into giving their lives for the southern oligarchs who became rich by owning other human beings."
"This statue is here to remind us of a very dark time in our history. It is here so that current day racists can commemorate rich slave owners or other wealthy aristocrats who benefitted from America's slave trade. It also memorializes the poor white soldiers who were duped into giving their lives for the southern oligarchs who became rich by owning other human beings."
24
That sounds like an acceptable idea to please (maybe) everyone. Statues are just a guy on a horse that nobody pays much attention to anyway, until someone want to take it down and then there is an outcry. Maybe just ignore the statues and even ignore the hate marchers. If they don't get any attention or a chance to fight someone, they just might fade away.
2
Michael Feeley.
Do you think the 1 % would allows such honesty ?
Who would fight their future wars if that reality became well known ?
Do you think the 1 % would allows such honesty ?
Who would fight their future wars if that reality became well known ?
1
Sadly white supremacists have co-oped confederate symbols as their own. Rebranding them for their own purposes. Now, the monuments must be removed as a call to violence.
Those who defend the monuments do not have a moral awareness of what is good vs evil, what is right vs wrong. Slavery was evil. The people who fought to defend slavery were defending a grossly evil practice. To compound their error of their support for evil, they went to war willing to kill tens of thousands of people, and injuring and maiming untold numbers of others. Thus the evil of their cause inflicted much more evil through the war. All this is indefensible and shows very flawed moral awareness, or it shows a commitment to the evil of slavery and racist bigotry. These monuments are no more acceptable than monuments to hitler and his cronies would be in Germany. Make a museum, but not monuments.
2
Down with all that idolatrous statuary tribune to white supremacy. Sell it all, if necessary. Melt the rest. Purchasers sign to place on private grounds. If in public, fines and subsequent melting down strictly enforced. That way the white supremacists can have their idols to bow down to with there bbq and the public, black, white, and in between, can walk the streets free of these tributes to white supremacy--paid for, by the way, by all (tax payer money, pay it or risk incarceration tax money) for their maintenance. This way, the idolators can assume costs, no externalizing costs for lovers of white supremacist iconography and statuary. Whether or not removal will discourage white nationalist violence is not at issue. That issue is entangled with a corrupt criminal justice system more willing to foist a felony charge on a young woman for "injury to a statue" than to find a single white supremacist to charge with a misdemeanor for battery of Deandre Harris, sent to the hospital for horrific injuries in an attack caught on film. As usual, race factors in on those charged and those not charged. No justice, no peace. No end to white supremacy, no justice.
It is what is in our hearts now that matters, and sometimes it heals our hearts to acknowledge the workings of redemption. Taking the statues down removes any need, any responsibility, any ownership from those of us who hate the sin at the heart of our country's past. We are who we have become and, for some of us, this becoming has been an anguish of dealing with truth, with facts, with things hard to face. Erasing the statues will not erase history, and this is a history we must face. There is no one of us, even those of us of Yankee heritage, who is without some degree of ownership in our American sin. In my own family I admit the depth of racial hatred, limited to ugly speech---yes---but "out there" for the children of the family to hear and interpret accordingly. We will grasp redemption. I believe this with all my heart. But, oh, the price! And taking statues down---on any side---will not hasten that redemption.
Why should Confederate Monuments Fall? Because honoring confederates who fought to defend slavery is wrong, plain wrong. That's why....
1
"Today, the battle for white male supremacy has expanded in scope. It is nativist, anti-feminist and anti-Semitic. It is also homophobic. As always, it is racist. And it has fully embraced the imagery of Nazism, from Adolf Hitler to swastika flags to the Nazi salute."
This movement threatens us all, and as Professor Cox points out, the only ones who will benefit if it succeeds are the rich and powerful white males, and lesser white males will only benefit by association. Hate and oppression leads only to more hate and more oppression.
And as to Washington or Jefferson being next? They were slave owners, yes, but would they have fought for slavery in the Civil War? We will never know, but they did perform other notable achievements for our nation, which is not true of Civil War generals or soldiers, who are known only for their fighting stance on slavery and against the nation.
This movement threatens us all, and as Professor Cox points out, the only ones who will benefit if it succeeds are the rich and powerful white males, and lesser white males will only benefit by association. Hate and oppression leads only to more hate and more oppression.
And as to Washington or Jefferson being next? They were slave owners, yes, but would they have fought for slavery in the Civil War? We will never know, but they did perform other notable achievements for our nation, which is not true of Civil War generals or soldiers, who are known only for their fighting stance on slavery and against the nation.
I don't think the statues are that important one way or the other. It just seems like one more thing to fight about.
How many who died in this conflagration were actual slave holders? How many among us, even at the very fringes of our society, consider holding another human being in bondage as acceptable?
Worship at the altars these statues represent is certainly limited to very, very few among us and tearing them down will have no effect but to destroy fine art. Take away the words not the images
Worship at the altars these statues represent is certainly limited to very, very few among us and tearing them down will have no effect but to destroy fine art. Take away the words not the images
The Vietnam War was a dishonorable conflict fought to impose American-style capitalist imperialism on a Vietnamese people who were considered inferior. What's to stop future generations from acknowledging this and ripping down statutes of American Vietnam War soldiers and military figures, after all the people who've mourned the fallen have died?
These confederates were never heroes. They took up arms against their Country started and supported a civil war. They are traitors to our Country and should have been punished and shamed at the time.
Venerating these slavers and flying the Confederate flag is an insult to the hundreds of thousands of men who fought for the north and in death gave their last full measure of devotion to their Country. Just as flying the Nazi flag is an insult to the hundreds of thousands of Americans that died in WWII, not to mention the millions of others who died at the hands of the Nazi regime.
Their faces should be removed from Stone mountain and any other public place except history museums. Imagine if the Germans erected statues of Herman Goering to commemorate German military heritage.
In addition to being a racial issue, this conflict is also about how we govern ourselves. The bankrupt notion that it is acceptable to take up arms to resolve our political differences is perpetuated to this day by people waving the confederate flag.
If we really want to commemorate the true heroes of the Civil war we should erect a 50' statue of General Sherman in downtown Atlanta to celebrate the thousands of slaves freed by the union army and remind people of the terrible price the South paid for taking up arms instead of negotiating an end to slavery.
Venerating these slavers and flying the Confederate flag is an insult to the hundreds of thousands of men who fought for the north and in death gave their last full measure of devotion to their Country. Just as flying the Nazi flag is an insult to the hundreds of thousands of Americans that died in WWII, not to mention the millions of others who died at the hands of the Nazi regime.
Their faces should be removed from Stone mountain and any other public place except history museums. Imagine if the Germans erected statues of Herman Goering to commemorate German military heritage.
In addition to being a racial issue, this conflict is also about how we govern ourselves. The bankrupt notion that it is acceptable to take up arms to resolve our political differences is perpetuated to this day by people waving the confederate flag.
If we really want to commemorate the true heroes of the Civil war we should erect a 50' statue of General Sherman in downtown Atlanta to celebrate the thousands of slaves freed by the union army and remind people of the terrible price the South paid for taking up arms instead of negotiating an end to slavery.
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If we are going to remove monuments like this then where does it stop? You might as well throw in all the founding fathers who have monuments like the Washington Monument and the Jefferson monument as well as others. Both owned slaves. History is generous with Thomas Jefferson for fathering a child with one of his slaves. Perhaps he forced himself on her? Perhaps she did not have a choice in the matter? But I guess that's An Inconvenient Truth. I'm not a white supremacist. I just want everyone to get along and do their thing. I think we should also remove Andrew Jackson from our currency. After all he is responsible for the Trail of Tears debacle when the Cherokee were forcibly removed from their homeland, and thousands died. we cannot cherry-pick and remove Confederate monuments simply because they exist. That's just my opinion that's all
This recalls the USSR where every so often once noteworthy leaders were erased from photos etc. They used to say 'the past is unpredictable.' I don't mind if monuments celebrating Lee come down, but really we need not to forget inconvenient or dishonorable chapters of the past, in order not to repeat them. Self-congratulation is just lazy complacency.
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It took a long time, but the Confederacy finally won the last battle the Civil War with the 2016 election. Perhaps Lincoln should have let the South secede and then collapse under its own contradictions.
Human history suggests that people are naturally prejudiced in favor of their own ancestors, because the accomplishments of their forefathers reflect well upon them.
America is increasingly dominated by people with shallow roots in this country. So it’s hardly surprising that they find it insulting to reflect upon what Americans not related to them once accomplished. Instead, it’s heartening to denounce the Founding Fathers as bad men whose descendants deserve their displacement.
America is increasingly dominated by people with shallow roots in this country. So it’s hardly surprising that they find it insulting to reflect upon what Americans not related to them once accomplished. Instead, it’s heartening to denounce the Founding Fathers as bad men whose descendants deserve their displacement.
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Most black people I know don't care about this entirely manufactured "controversy". They couldn't care less about chunks of stone.
But some are asking, not without justification, where, 150 years later, are the forty acres and the mule?
A debate of that question would seem harder, but more productive, than the easy and cheap mass hysteria obsessed with statues.
But some are asking, not without justification, where, 150 years later, are the forty acres and the mule?
A debate of that question would seem harder, but more productive, than the easy and cheap mass hysteria obsessed with statues.
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These monuments, in addition to the Confederate flag, symbolize and commemorate one more thing...
Treason.
Treason.
Brilliantly and incisively written. White supremacy is not just an attitude or a policy; it is raw violence and murder against the innocent and vulnerable. They should have worn their white robes for maximum effect. The removal of the racist monuments is timely. Perhaps this is Custer's Last Stand for wanton white male dominance in America. The removals are an obvious and easy target for social progress. However, my concern is the insidious and pervasive existence of 'white privilege.' This is a form of supremacy that the rank and file white citizen does not denounce and would just as soon overlook. It is the assumption that whites get the benefit of any situation in society. The assumption that: 'this is my country and I should expect to benefit from all of it's spoils, just because I'm white.' This is a more difficult lift, particularly since privilege has its advantages and confers a sense of security and expectation. Its one thing to denounce a former slaver owner, its another to allow your boardrooms, neighborhoods, schools, and golf courses to be truly open to all. If you're wealthy and white there are no limits for you at all. White privilege allows law enforcement to assume they are nobly protecting society from blacks and that their lives are expendable. The push back on affirmative action is rationalized by white privilege. Moderate whites don't want to give up their privilege. That would truly be revolutionary.
Lee, Jackson, etc may have been (were?) great generals. The Germans had some great generals during WWII but do we see ny statues of Rommel or Hitler in Germany celeberating German history? No, and we would be righteously enraged if there were. How is celebraing the confederacy any different?
I did find the editorial and the accompanying picyure overly hysterical and offensive.
I did find the editorial and the accompanying picyure overly hysterical and offensive.
The scattered manner in which cities and states have removed or destroyed statues of confederate leaders will only serve to add another layer of victimhood to the south. We need a major museum devoted to the civil war. Put the statues and plaques in it. Explain in detail not just the war but the racism that continues in the 150+ years since. I've read narratives of lynchings since the civil war, as recently as the 50's. I saw a photo of a body hanging from a tree in the background, in the foreground a dozen or so white men, holding liquor bottles, laughing or smiling. Where were the police? In a small town it would be hard not to hear the ruckus. Did they ignore or worse, organize the event? This narrative must also must be included so the veneer of honor can be stripped away from those southern 'gentlemen'.
Poor whites were and are manipulated by their leaders. Today's republicans are masters of 'code'. Raegan and the 'welfare queen' - The seed he planted blossomed when Obama was elected. What did repubs do when the tea party displayed racist images of Obama? Nothing. They need this segment of the party.
Most southerners did not own slaves, but fought to protect their 'homeland'.
Manipulated by their leaders. Not so different from Trump supporters. Honest but uniformed.
All working people are being oppressed in today's 1% world, and as long as they are divided the oppression will continue.
Poor whites were and are manipulated by their leaders. Today's republicans are masters of 'code'. Raegan and the 'welfare queen' - The seed he planted blossomed when Obama was elected. What did repubs do when the tea party displayed racist images of Obama? Nothing. They need this segment of the party.
Most southerners did not own slaves, but fought to protect their 'homeland'.
Manipulated by their leaders. Not so different from Trump supporters. Honest but uniformed.
All working people are being oppressed in today's 1% world, and as long as they are divided the oppression will continue.
In 1860 the United States was a very new and unique country. As far as I know,
it wasn't very clear if a state had the legal right to secede. If anyone can point me to the relevant law please educate me.
Also, back off on the self-righteous rants. They are tiresome.
it wasn't very clear if a state had the legal right to secede. If anyone can point me to the relevant law please educate me.
Also, back off on the self-righteous rants. They are tiresome.
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What could be more disingenuous than this attempt to tie the issue of Confederate monuments to the current anti-Trump frenzy?
The Civil War of one hundred fifty years ago did not consist of hundreds of thousands of young Southern men consciously fighting for slavery. They were fighting to defend their homes and nation.
This is historical presentism at its worst. Let the statues stand while the nation carries out a rational debate upon the matter itself.
The Civil War of one hundred fifty years ago did not consist of hundreds of thousands of young Southern men consciously fighting for slavery. They were fighting to defend their homes and nation.
This is historical presentism at its worst. Let the statues stand while the nation carries out a rational debate upon the matter itself.
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To maintain these monuments in their public places is an affront to the notion of a United States of America and an insult to every African American. As a Jew, I certainly wouldn't want to see swastikas and signs stating, Arbeit Macht Frei and No Dogs and Jews Allowed, in Germany and Austria. Those countries were vanquished, just as the South here was, and they understood to take these virulent symbols down. Why are we not able to understand this? You can go to museums and see these relics of the Nazis. That's where they belong. So, too, do these monuments belong in museums. I'm not suggesting that they be destroyed. Quite the contrary, I believe they have a place in history and that anyone who wants to understand that era of our history should go to a museum. There, they can ponder the heroism and chivalry of Robert E. Lee, PGT Beauregard, Stonewall Jackson, Jefferson Davis, and all the others. But, bottom line: that's where they belong, in a museum and not in public plazas.
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I appreciate this more thoughtful comment. Many of these men, especially Lee, were honorable and sincere persons, however complicated their situations were.
The Taliban and Isis tore down ancient monuments as well, believing they could eradicate assumed heresies. It is unfortunate that the White Nationalists are trying to co-opt history, for their own ends.
The Taliban and Isis tore down ancient monuments as well, believing they could eradicate assumed heresies. It is unfortunate that the White Nationalists are trying to co-opt history, for their own ends.
mddubinsky,
Granted what you wrote.
What are we to do with the Statues/Portraits of Presidents who owned
Slavery and/or did nothing to end Slavery ?
Granted what you wrote.
What are we to do with the Statues/Portraits of Presidents who owned
Slavery and/or did nothing to end Slavery ?
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The left wing in America today (2017) and the toppling of Confederate statues and right wing resistance to such and emergence of far right groups such as white supremacists/nationalists?
I despise both the right and left wings today. The left wing for decades has been attacking all it perceives to not fit its social justice course. For years we have had dead white males attacked to point that it's now reflexive. Humanities departments in universities have been remade in a new socialist order. The left wing today talks about just toppling confederate statues, but once the record is examined of the general attack on dead white males it's not at all obvious where the left wing will stop with respect to toppling statues and who knows what else.
Grotesquely the left wing is matched by the right wing of today. White nationalism, Christianity reformed as a gun/cross tattoo cult with background of American flag. On both sides we have crude leveling, lowest common denominator forces. But this fits in with current America, overpopulation, bureaucracy, technological advancement. Just crude, simplistic branding and managerial line no matter the politics. Organize, get your mob out, keep it simple and be effective.
Any decent individual, a person who respects artistic, scientific, cultural accomplishment, ethnic cuisine, all the distinctive and exceptional things about life, all which takes thought, time and training and is accomplished with pride and integrity, just suffers today.
I despise both the right and left wings today. The left wing for decades has been attacking all it perceives to not fit its social justice course. For years we have had dead white males attacked to point that it's now reflexive. Humanities departments in universities have been remade in a new socialist order. The left wing today talks about just toppling confederate statues, but once the record is examined of the general attack on dead white males it's not at all obvious where the left wing will stop with respect to toppling statues and who knows what else.
Grotesquely the left wing is matched by the right wing of today. White nationalism, Christianity reformed as a gun/cross tattoo cult with background of American flag. On both sides we have crude leveling, lowest common denominator forces. But this fits in with current America, overpopulation, bureaucracy, technological advancement. Just crude, simplistic branding and managerial line no matter the politics. Organize, get your mob out, keep it simple and be effective.
Any decent individual, a person who respects artistic, scientific, cultural accomplishment, ethnic cuisine, all the distinctive and exceptional things about life, all which takes thought, time and training and is accomplished with pride and integrity, just suffers today.
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As I read through this dialog I wonder: where does it end in terms of removing history? The use of historic figures and their monuments (flawed as they might have been) to justify hate is simply wrong. But how about the other groups that have suffered through-out American history? Should we next remove monuments to military leaders that campaigned and destroyed Native Americans? We need to remember history so as to learn from it.
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Like Machiavelli I believe that all foundations of all new republics are rooted in necessity, and thus have injustice as part of their makeup. The horizon line detailed in our founding documents looks to a future which points beyond the evils necessary for founding the republic.
The Monuments should not be removed. Our past is our past. To obsess about the past is to live in it, and to narrow the horizon line that our founders, flawed people with noble intention living in a flawed time, wisely staked out for us. This is the goal of the white supremacists. Monuments, understood rightly, allow us to view the past while not being defined by it, and allow us to move beyond it. We cannot remove them, lest we forget the terrible price to be paid for noble endeavors that rise from flawed foundations.
To paraphrase Lincoln, the foundational documents are propositions. The test of their veracity is painful at times.
Too bad our president doesn't get it, and gives those who are morally repugnant and living in the past a line to drag us back there.
The Monuments should not be removed. Our past is our past. To obsess about the past is to live in it, and to narrow the horizon line that our founders, flawed people with noble intention living in a flawed time, wisely staked out for us. This is the goal of the white supremacists. Monuments, understood rightly, allow us to view the past while not being defined by it, and allow us to move beyond it. We cannot remove them, lest we forget the terrible price to be paid for noble endeavors that rise from flawed foundations.
To paraphrase Lincoln, the foundational documents are propositions. The test of their veracity is painful at times.
Too bad our president doesn't get it, and gives those who are morally repugnant and living in the past a line to drag us back there.
"White supremacists aren’t the only defenders of these monuments. President Trump on Tuesday criticized efforts to take them down."
This implies that Trump is not a white supremacist. I don't think that assumption holds true.
This implies that Trump is not a white supremacist. I don't think that assumption holds true.
Growing up in the suburbs of Philly, I've seen and heard racism first-hand from many people in my mostly white, blue collar neighborhood. Everything that's going on is incredibly sad to me.
The people who rail against "political correctness" are the same people, I've seen, who also make off-hand remarks when minorities started moving into my neighborhood.
Racism is real and alive - and it's never gone away. I'm not sure where it comes from - a lack of empathy, compassion or whatever. But I think what's happening now is that it's all just coming to the surface. It's been underground for a while.
I rarely leave comments on websites, but I feel compelled to now. What I've been seeing and reading since last weekend has disturbed me. After watching the videos of the rally, there's no way you can say the white nationalists arrived in Virginia not looking for a fight. These people clearly have hate in their hearts and, for the life of me, I cannot understand what they stand for.
I can't understand why you would be against tolerance and equality - maybe I'm naive. To me, it's just basic human decency.
The people who rail against "political correctness" are the same people, I've seen, who also make off-hand remarks when minorities started moving into my neighborhood.
Racism is real and alive - and it's never gone away. I'm not sure where it comes from - a lack of empathy, compassion or whatever. But I think what's happening now is that it's all just coming to the surface. It's been underground for a while.
I rarely leave comments on websites, but I feel compelled to now. What I've been seeing and reading since last weekend has disturbed me. After watching the videos of the rally, there's no way you can say the white nationalists arrived in Virginia not looking for a fight. These people clearly have hate in their hearts and, for the life of me, I cannot understand what they stand for.
I can't understand why you would be against tolerance and equality - maybe I'm naive. To me, it's just basic human decency.
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The pivotal issue of the Civil War was whether human beings could be owned, forced to work, bought and sold as property with no rights as human beings. It is hard to see a truth that takes away your wealth. All laudable aspects or grand traditions of the antebellum south depended on this incomprehensibly violent system which implicitly denounced the premises on which our nation was founded: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
My favorite monuments are the ones in Paris, France. The ones that were originally castles of the wealthiest and are now government offices and museums. They serve the public good now. That is as it should be.
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How I blame the media for all the recent uproar. First because they are only too happy to demonize a president duly elected. They find every opportunity to blame him. I listened and heard what he said. He condemned neo nazis and white extremists. He also mentioned the antifa present as they were also violent. And people are outraged? Continue your self serving/did not get over the results of the election, while citizens take it in.
The fake outrage, while he states facts, doesn't do the trick.
Of course people oppose violence and want everyone to get along, but lying turns moderate into doubters, and doubters into more pro Trump.
As for the statues, plaques and monuments, where does it end. No one can re write history. It's a slippery slope. Who is judge and jury? A decision to please is one that divides. Let them stand as a lesson.
The fake outrage, while he states facts, doesn't do the trick.
Of course people oppose violence and want everyone to get along, but lying turns moderate into doubters, and doubters into more pro Trump.
As for the statues, plaques and monuments, where does it end. No one can re write history. It's a slippery slope. Who is judge and jury? A decision to please is one that divides. Let them stand as a lesson.
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Removing statues does not change the past, but it is becoming more and more apparent that it may influence the present.
Still I hesitate to say we should removed these statutes entirely. We cannot change history - but we can rewrite it, in a way. We can write more of it. Show more of it. We know now that the current narratives of the past have been very narrow and exclusive. It is time to expand the story - to tell the whole story of a complicated past.
Rather that erase, let us build more. Add to the narrative. Tell the full story. Erect statues of influential minority figures - African Americans and women. Let's acknowledge a full, rich, and often painful history that has long been ignored.
What if next to Lee we erect an even larger and grander sculpture of an abolitionist. What if at UVA, next to the statute Jefferson, the man who conceived of the university, we erect a monument to the slaves who built it. What if instead of removing the sculptures, we enlist artists to come in and change them - maybe the sculpture remains but it is no longer of Lee. It is just a man on a horse. It's a sculpture and a palimpsest - as layered and complicated as the communities and places where they stand.
Still I hesitate to say we should removed these statutes entirely. We cannot change history - but we can rewrite it, in a way. We can write more of it. Show more of it. We know now that the current narratives of the past have been very narrow and exclusive. It is time to expand the story - to tell the whole story of a complicated past.
Rather that erase, let us build more. Add to the narrative. Tell the full story. Erect statues of influential minority figures - African Americans and women. Let's acknowledge a full, rich, and often painful history that has long been ignored.
What if next to Lee we erect an even larger and grander sculpture of an abolitionist. What if at UVA, next to the statute Jefferson, the man who conceived of the university, we erect a monument to the slaves who built it. What if instead of removing the sculptures, we enlist artists to come in and change them - maybe the sculpture remains but it is no longer of Lee. It is just a man on a horse. It's a sculpture and a palimpsest - as layered and complicated as the communities and places where they stand.
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Robert E. Lee decided to join the Confederacy because of devotion to his home state, Virginia. He wrote to a friend, “If Virginia stands by the old Union, so will I. But if she secedes (though I do not believe in secession as a constitutional right, nor that there is sufficient cause for revolution), then I will follow my native State with my sword, and, if need be, with my life.”
Lee certainly believed in a state's right to determine its own fate, and doubtless many of the most ardent critics of the decision to remove his statue share that belief in local power and authority. Yet white supremacists from across the US descended on Charlottesville ostensibly to protest a local decision. It had nothing to do with many of them. This is why I believe the removal of Confederate statues is a red herring, merely an excuse for extremist factions to spout their hatred and racism.
Lee certainly believed in a state's right to determine its own fate, and doubtless many of the most ardent critics of the decision to remove his statue share that belief in local power and authority. Yet white supremacists from across the US descended on Charlottesville ostensibly to protest a local decision. It had nothing to do with many of them. This is why I believe the removal of Confederate statues is a red herring, merely an excuse for extremist factions to spout their hatred and racism.
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Perhaps, we could learn from the French. After the first world war, the French honored Marshal Petain with statues, street names, and other honors. After the second world war, however, during which Petain led the German-allied Vichy regime, the French removed the statues and changed the street names. While not a perfect comparison, the role of Lee, Davis, and others in U. S. history is similar to Petain's in French history, and it is appropriate to remove the honors that mythologize them while emphasizing through the study of history exactly what they did to betray the United States and to support slavery and white supremacy.
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The gist of this article is that we should all have an ongoing culture war in our heads. Liberal vs Conservative. Pro-Trump vs anti-Trump. Gay rights vs homophobic. White supremacists vs others . . .
After that, we can all ascribe everything we dislike to the other side. And get absolutely nowhere, other than political and social stalemate.
After that, we can all ascribe everything we dislike to the other side. And get absolutely nowhere, other than political and social stalemate.
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This is fanatical and, in principle, no different than what ISIS and fundamentalist Sunni Muslims do to cultural artifacts that do not fit their current world view. The latter includes the pre-Islamic art and architectural ruins of ancient civilizations.
It is a slippery slope.
Where will OUR secular fanatics on the Left draw the line? Will we next condone the burning of books and the destruction of objects of art because their creators were racists or misogynists or whatever?
This pogrom against history and its tangible products must end!
It is a slippery slope.
Where will OUR secular fanatics on the Left draw the line? Will we next condone the burning of books and the destruction of objects of art because their creators were racists or misogynists or whatever?
This pogrom against history and its tangible products must end!
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No. The Confederate Monuments is not about slavery. They are much more than that. What removing the monuments will do is fester more hate and fear. People will no longer hide their hatred. People will become more fearful. Racism, from before the civil rights moment, just didn't go away. It just morphed into something else.
The better plan is to educate. To have an honest and open conversation about what was and what remains. These monuments are to honor those people who fought and died in a war for states rights, slavery and their way of life. You may not agree with what they fought for, but you have no right to change history. You have no right to insult those who died for what they believed in. Those young men gave the ultimate sacrifice to leaders they believed in. Having a monument for such a price in not asking much.
Tell me. Are you willing to do the same for what you believe in? The ultimate sacrifice? Didn't think so.
The better plan is to educate. To have an honest and open conversation about what was and what remains. These monuments are to honor those people who fought and died in a war for states rights, slavery and their way of life. You may not agree with what they fought for, but you have no right to change history. You have no right to insult those who died for what they believed in. Those young men gave the ultimate sacrifice to leaders they believed in. Having a monument for such a price in not asking much.
Tell me. Are you willing to do the same for what you believe in? The ultimate sacrifice? Didn't think so.
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The Confederate Monuments are all and only about slavery, white supremacy, treason and Jim Crow in a disunited states.
History is always rightfully changing by interpretation, more facts and different perspectives.
It matters morally, ethically and legally what you are fighting for and against.
The Confederate States of America lost the Civil War and it's leaders were not tried, convicted and sentenced for their treachery. Robert E. Lee was opposed to monuments.
Those who fought against the traitors and their heirs have every civil secular plural democratic republic right to control the public place and space narrative about the Civil War.
The hate and fear exists independent of Confederate Monuments erected from the Jim Crow era of Woodrow Wilson to that of Lyndon Johnson.
History is always rightfully changing by interpretation, more facts and different perspectives.
It matters morally, ethically and legally what you are fighting for and against.
The Confederate States of America lost the Civil War and it's leaders were not tried, convicted and sentenced for their treachery. Robert E. Lee was opposed to monuments.
Those who fought against the traitors and their heirs have every civil secular plural democratic republic right to control the public place and space narrative about the Civil War.
The hate and fear exists independent of Confederate Monuments erected from the Jim Crow era of Woodrow Wilson to that of Lyndon Johnson.
2
Nazis fought and died for what they believed in. You don't see statues of them all over Germany. Dying for a cause doesn't make that cause noble, just, or worth memorializing.
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First, there are plenty of road side signs, civil war grave yards, and battlefields through out the south to remind people of what went down. Many of the battlefields have monuments to fallen soldiers. No one is suggesting that grave sites be taken apart. I don't have a problem with the New York Peace Memorial In Chattanooga - which has a union and a confederate soldier shaking hands (see: http://www.chattanoogan.com/2010/2/27/169960/Centennial-Year-of-the-New-....
What I do have a problem with is having an enormous bust of the founder of the KKK - Nathan Bedford Forrest - in the halls of our state capitol. How can one think there can be a fair conversation, if this is the starting point?
What I do have a problem with is having an enormous bust of the founder of the KKK - Nathan Bedford Forrest - in the halls of our state capitol. How can one think there can be a fair conversation, if this is the starting point?
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I might be stretching this a bit but, I'm Brazilian and have lived practically my entire life in São Paulo. Brazil has been going through a similar process of trying to erase History, especially regarding slavery and who the actors were at the time. In my opinion, it is very hard to extract good from bad in such a different context, which was the world 200, 300, 400 years ago. In a senseless attempt, in my opinion, to rewrite History, statues were torn down, people's good actions disappeared from books and many important authors (Monteiro Lobato, for example) are being forbidden.
1
Beyond the slavery issue (as significant as it is), there's another issue making Confederate statues and flags inappropriate on public property: namely that, for four years, the Confederate States of America was a foreign nation. As such, it's not fitting to have its emblems on any public property.
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Karen L. Cox: Pres. Trump asks where will taking down public monuments end. To paraphrase Trump's Atty. Gen Jeff Sessions response to the question, whether he would support removing Alabama's Confederate statues, "That's for the American people to decide."
But you buy into the anti-democratic idea that poor whites and blacks need instruction from educated and media elites on issues of common interest. On the contrary, socio-economically similar status groups are always naturally divided over scarce positions of status. No Southern white elite instigated discrimination class lawsuits by Asian American groups against Ivy League universities for givng admission preferences to those whom the Asians believe are less academically qualified African American, Hispanic, and Native American students.
And no Southern white elite prohibits public school history teachers from educating secondary and high school students in "local community history," including history as basic as of their streets, city governments, state legislation, and community and state political divisions over labor, race, gender, legal, and religious issues. But today, no public school history dept. dares defy city leaders, unions, and school boards in order to instruct students in understanding the methods of historians in establishing the facts of the local past.
But you buy into the anti-democratic idea that poor whites and blacks need instruction from educated and media elites on issues of common interest. On the contrary, socio-economically similar status groups are always naturally divided over scarce positions of status. No Southern white elite instigated discrimination class lawsuits by Asian American groups against Ivy League universities for givng admission preferences to those whom the Asians believe are less academically qualified African American, Hispanic, and Native American students.
And no Southern white elite prohibits public school history teachers from educating secondary and high school students in "local community history," including history as basic as of their streets, city governments, state legislation, and community and state political divisions over labor, race, gender, legal, and religious issues. But today, no public school history dept. dares defy city leaders, unions, and school boards in order to instruct students in understanding the methods of historians in establishing the facts of the local past.
3
Tell us this history
The US Capital's honored Statuary Hall has 12 Confederate statues.
Created by an act of Congress, each state selects 2 to memorialize in this august building. Among the twelve: Lee of course, but also the President and Vice President of the Confederacy: Jefferson Davis and Alexander Hamilton Stephens. Two states: Mississippi and South Carolina are exclusively represented by the Confederacy. It's time to talk about these as well.
Created by an act of Congress, each state selects 2 to memorialize in this august building. Among the twelve: Lee of course, but also the President and Vice President of the Confederacy: Jefferson Davis and Alexander Hamilton Stephens. Two states: Mississippi and South Carolina are exclusively represented by the Confederacy. It's time to talk about these as well.
1
We need a national dialogue on these confederate statues and it should start with the statues in Congress.
It will interesting to see how the movement to remove Confederate statues fares in Texas. When I and my two daughters visited the State House in Austin, we are astounded by the huge monument that dominates the south entrance to the State House grounds. Erected in 1903, it features four bronze figures, each representing a branch of the military presided over by a statue of Jefferson Davis. In addition to listing all 1000+ battles in which Texas soldiers participated, it features an inscription claiming that Confederate soldiers "died for state rights guaranteed under the Constitution" and that "the people of the South, animated by the spirit of 1776, to preserve their rights, withdrew from the federal compact in 1861. The North resorted to coercion. The South, against overwhelming numbers and resources, fought until exhausted." At least four other statues and monuments honoring the Confederate cause adorn the grounds. Knowing how proud Texans are of their heritage, I predict any effort to remove them will face an uphill battle.
2
I would highly recommend the activists stay out of Texas.
1
History and its heroes should be respected, not relived by extremists. Slavery was not the only cause of the actions of southern states; conomic inequality was also. Lack of manpower in the south to produce goods and food for the enormous needs of more populist northern states resulted in slavery. I believe confederate soldiers deserve respect for defending the causes they believed in or perhaps were forced to defend, just like Vietnam veterans. As a native Richmonder, I see no reason to deny the city its history that it deserves. Read Cold Mountain to have a better understanding of the Civil War from both sides.
3
The Donald is responsible for the racial violence which he condoned and even encouraged during his campaign. Look no further!
1
Professor Cox makes some excellent points about the monuments.
But then she drags in some irrelevant issues.
I do not see how homophobia [something certainly to be condemned] has anything to do with these monuments.
I do not believe that male chauvinism has anything to do with these monuments.
Some data:
The last Democratic presidential candidate to receive a majority of the white vote was LBJ in 1964.
Of the white women who voted in 2016
53% of all white women voted for Trump
51% of white college women voted for Clinton
62% of all white non college women voted for Trump
In the 1930's rich phony white women prevented having domestic workers [most of whom were poor women] being covered by minimum wage legislation because these phony rich women wanted access to cheap labor.
see http://wamc.org/post/dr-vanessa-may-seton-hall-university-labor-law-and-...
Keep the question of the civil war monuments separate from other issues that need to be addressed.
Voters knew what evil things TRump stood for BEFORE the election.
But 53% of white women who voted and 62% of non-college white women who voted did vote for Trump.
There is a lot of anger in this country from people who are suffering economically. The Dems must [and HRC did not so she lost] propose programs to help these people.
Otherwise demagogues like Trump and others will blame minorities, immigrants racial groups and these demagogues will be listened to.
NOTHING excuses the murder in Charlottesville.
But then she drags in some irrelevant issues.
I do not see how homophobia [something certainly to be condemned] has anything to do with these monuments.
I do not believe that male chauvinism has anything to do with these monuments.
Some data:
The last Democratic presidential candidate to receive a majority of the white vote was LBJ in 1964.
Of the white women who voted in 2016
53% of all white women voted for Trump
51% of white college women voted for Clinton
62% of all white non college women voted for Trump
In the 1930's rich phony white women prevented having domestic workers [most of whom were poor women] being covered by minimum wage legislation because these phony rich women wanted access to cheap labor.
see http://wamc.org/post/dr-vanessa-may-seton-hall-university-labor-law-and-...
Keep the question of the civil war monuments separate from other issues that need to be addressed.
Voters knew what evil things TRump stood for BEFORE the election.
But 53% of white women who voted and 62% of non-college white women who voted did vote for Trump.
There is a lot of anger in this country from people who are suffering economically. The Dems must [and HRC did not so she lost] propose programs to help these people.
Otherwise demagogues like Trump and others will blame minorities, immigrants racial groups and these demagogues will be listened to.
NOTHING excuses the murder in Charlottesville.
2
I believe what you are attempting to do here is called "buffet" politics. Like the religious you are picking and choosing your positions as if they are on a menu. Homophobia is a central aspect of white supremacy dogma it is equal to hatred for Jews and any nonwhjite people. BTW some of them are "buffet" white supremacists who make room in their minds for people they know or like who are not white.
The mention of it was not off topic or diversionary from the need to once and for all make perfectly clear the facts about the Confederacy which as Bill Holland above post demonstrates to us the adherents to this sick ideology will stop at nothing not any lie or subterfuge to regain dominance in our society.
The "South" actually went to war AGAINST States Rights. One of the things they resented deeply was Northern states who allowed slaves who made it there to be free and refused to repatriate them when their "masters" came calling. This was a very big deal and the south absolutely denied that the Constitution gave those states the right to set slaves free etc.
To this day they try to use the fact of this as an excuse for the denial of abortion rights etc. claiming States Rights to do so and ignoring the fact that the Northern States had the right to set slaves free because slavery was wrong not because they had a Constitutional right to violate the laws of the southern states where the slaves came from.
The mention of it was not off topic or diversionary from the need to once and for all make perfectly clear the facts about the Confederacy which as Bill Holland above post demonstrates to us the adherents to this sick ideology will stop at nothing not any lie or subterfuge to regain dominance in our society.
The "South" actually went to war AGAINST States Rights. One of the things they resented deeply was Northern states who allowed slaves who made it there to be free and refused to repatriate them when their "masters" came calling. This was a very big deal and the south absolutely denied that the Constitution gave those states the right to set slaves free etc.
To this day they try to use the fact of this as an excuse for the denial of abortion rights etc. claiming States Rights to do so and ignoring the fact that the Northern States had the right to set slaves free because slavery was wrong not because they had a Constitutional right to violate the laws of the southern states where the slaves came from.
I don't know what buffet politics is.
I made it clear that religious and sexual orientation intolerance is to be condemned.
I do not follow your connection between homophobia and hatred of Jews.
I refer you to the Old Testament
Leviticus 20:13 KJV.
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood."
I support Roe.
From what I have read the same percentage of women and of men support Roe.
I suspect we agree on issues.
I suspect we disagree about why people think as they do about issues.
A blanket statement that it is all due to white supremacy [and particularly white MALE supremacy] is misguided.
I made it clear that religious and sexual orientation intolerance is to be condemned.
I do not follow your connection between homophobia and hatred of Jews.
I refer you to the Old Testament
Leviticus 20:13 KJV.
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood."
I support Roe.
From what I have read the same percentage of women and of men support Roe.
I suspect we agree on issues.
I suspect we disagree about why people think as they do about issues.
A blanket statement that it is all due to white supremacy [and particularly white MALE supremacy] is misguided.
What president Trump fails to recognize in his slippery slope argument for taking down statues of Jefferson and Washington, is that these men were nation builders-- they literally wrenched a colony from the hands of British monarchs and gave us a country based on ideals from The Enlightenment.
The Confederates tried, unsuccessfully, to tear that nation apart-- they were literally nation destroyers. The monuments to these "heroes" are not meant to remind us of our dark history of slavery and repression. Rather, they were erected to remind African Americans, on a daily basis, that white people are still their superiors, still in power, and they are only free because of "the war of Northern aggression."
Our Founders were not perfect men, they were just men. Men who were tied to mores of the era in which they lived. But they had a vision-- a vision that we would build "a more perfect union."
Tear down the Confederate statues and the plaques honoring their contributions along with.
Then build more statues of enlightened men. We could use a little more enlightenment about now.
The Confederates tried, unsuccessfully, to tear that nation apart-- they were literally nation destroyers. The monuments to these "heroes" are not meant to remind us of our dark history of slavery and repression. Rather, they were erected to remind African Americans, on a daily basis, that white people are still their superiors, still in power, and they are only free because of "the war of Northern aggression."
Our Founders were not perfect men, they were just men. Men who were tied to mores of the era in which they lived. But they had a vision-- a vision that we would build "a more perfect union."
Tear down the Confederate statues and the plaques honoring their contributions along with.
Then build more statues of enlightened men. We could use a little more enlightenment about now.
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If you start a comment with " What president trump fails to recognize " , you're going to be here a long time .
How can it be that states like Tennessee and North Carolina have passed laws in this century precluding the removal of statues designed to memorialize those who abandoned their country and attacked their countryman all to preserve and protect the right to own another human being?
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Can't help but wonder if Germany would tolerate Hitler, Himmler, Hoess and Eichmann statues...
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No they would not, not for a second. But they name streets in honor of murdered Jews, my great grandfather is one such person.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Freund
He was a Rabbi in Hanover until that whole generation was wiped of the face of the earth. Germany is an inspiring example because they did the work, acceptance of guilt and a honest sustained effort make sure it did not happen again. This included educating people to the reality of what happened, excepting responsibility and making monetary Reparations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Freund
He was a Rabbi in Hanover until that whole generation was wiped of the face of the earth. Germany is an inspiring example because they did the work, acceptance of guilt and a honest sustained effort make sure it did not happen again. This included educating people to the reality of what happened, excepting responsibility and making monetary Reparations.
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Of course not!
yeah, germany under hitler used slave labour. As well as the US under George Washington, who PERSONALLY owned slaves...
What about his statues?
What about his statues?
I respectfully disagree with your idea that these monuments must be torn down. My reasons are this. During the allied invasion of Europe at the end of WWII General Dwight D Eisenhower in surveying what the Germans had done in the Aushwictz concentration camp, ordered his men to bring in the local townspeople who lived next door to this camp. He wanted them to see first hand what they had chosen to ignore. The Germans bull dozed all the bodies into a ditch before leaving. The world ignored the rumours of what Hilter was doing to the Jews, gays and the disabled and stood by and watched in silence. The statue of General Lee should remind all Americans of the 3.4 million citizens who fought in the civil war. A war which nearly broke a country. The South engaged in war with the North in an effort to perpetuate the buying and selling of slaves. They lost. To this day, there are those in the south who have never accepted this loss and still seems themselves as Confederates first and Americans last. They still want to perpetuate their believe in white supremacy. General Lee and his monument is a reminder of where the US once was, those who died fighting for what they believed, it is a reminder of those slaves who suffered unbearable loss and death, lynchings, beatings the civil rights movement and what it stood for. Never, ever remove or try to sanitize history even if it is ugly and painful. Like the holocaust it is a reminder to us all of where we never want to go back too.
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Putting them in a museum would serve that purpose well.
2
I disagree, I saw an interview with a young black woman talking about having to walk past one of these statues everyday to get back and forth to school. Should she be punished?
I read a comment from another site that made an intriguing point and that is White Supremacists are glorifying and idolizing history's losers both Confederate and Nazi.
So those who feel lost and disenfranchised have aligned themselves with losers.
So those who feel lost and disenfranchised have aligned themselves with losers.
3
"White supremacists aren’t the only defenders of these monuments. President Trump on Tuesday criticized efforts to take them down."
'President Trump, a White Supremacist sympathizer, criticized efforts to take them down'.
There, fixed it.
It's time to realize that Bannon, Miller, and Gorka are full throated neo-Nazis.
'President Trump, a White Supremacist sympathizer, criticized efforts to take them down'.
There, fixed it.
It's time to realize that Bannon, Miller, and Gorka are full throated neo-Nazis.
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There is nothing religious about treason,there is nothing honest about wanting to perpetuate slavery, and continuing to build on the myth of "southern gentlemen" Honoring the fine old tradition of. SLAVERY,stop it,stop it now.
Take down every last statue of men who fought to kill the defenders of the constitution of the United States . I will not name them.They tried to kill the country I live in.Until the last election I never heard a candidate proud of
Grabbing a woman's genitals,now I have.I never saw a candidate mock a disabled person,now I have.Now he defends the Nazi ,fascist kkk,and I want the
Congress to tell me Are you proud to call this disgusting man your president?if you do not take him down you approve his filth.
Take down every last statue of men who fought to kill the defenders of the constitution of the United States . I will not name them.They tried to kill the country I live in.Until the last election I never heard a candidate proud of
Grabbing a woman's genitals,now I have.I never saw a candidate mock a disabled person,now I have.Now he defends the Nazi ,fascist kkk,and I want the
Congress to tell me Are you proud to call this disgusting man your president?if you do not take him down you approve his filth.
6
Close you eyes and close your ears, la la la la la. Georgie Washington and Thomas Jefferson were racists. Don't be hypocrites. And the US government murdered Indians and took their lands; wiped them out. And you guys want to worry about statues.
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It is foolish to judge people in history by today's standards. All people in all places have done evil. So YOU don't be a hypocrite.
Telle me mss Cox, will tearing down the monuments erase history for Democrats? I think not, if we erase history we are dammed to repeat it. Ignore the Constitution and feel the fascist Democratic Socialists oppression. They speak of Trump lying, yet forget, you can keep your doctor, the ACA will save everyone $3,500 per year, illegals will not be enrolled on the ACA, on and on and on.
3
racists are racists - nazis are nazis and traitors are traitors - no apologies work - and lumpy is all three.
2
Move the statues to the city's raw sewage plant so those that wish to admire them can contemplate their odoriferous history peacefully.
3
You can tear down statues of Nazi Adolph Hitler, Mussolini, Confederates and others. You can burn all books and libraries. However, you can’t change or rewrite the history of mankind.
You can tear down and burn all Christian churches in America rewrite the Christian Holy Bible and God’s Ten Commandments, however among Christians God will always exist.
Those who assume the Declaration of Independence words “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” mean that you can do whatever you wish are wrong. If you want respect from all others, then you must also respect all others. You can’t change man’s history which is already written.
Man is cruel and self destructive. Man is pompous, self-serving, territorial, aggressive, with an innate ability to destroy and kill.
In terms of human behavior, the more things seem to change....the more they remain the same.
And in the attempt to create a perfect human.....even if you were able to clone humans.....you would unfortunately also clone all of man's mental and physical imperfections.
Humans will eventually self destruct due to their inability to control their inborn dichotomies of love vs. hate, good vs. evil, right vs. wrong, and moral vs. immoral.
Too many humans see themselves in a mirror as wise and beautiful kings and queens, instead of seeing their wicked selves filled with vile hubris. Man's behavior will forever remain unchangeable and quite predictable.
You can tear down and burn all Christian churches in America rewrite the Christian Holy Bible and God’s Ten Commandments, however among Christians God will always exist.
Those who assume the Declaration of Independence words “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” mean that you can do whatever you wish are wrong. If you want respect from all others, then you must also respect all others. You can’t change man’s history which is already written.
Man is cruel and self destructive. Man is pompous, self-serving, territorial, aggressive, with an innate ability to destroy and kill.
In terms of human behavior, the more things seem to change....the more they remain the same.
And in the attempt to create a perfect human.....even if you were able to clone humans.....you would unfortunately also clone all of man's mental and physical imperfections.
Humans will eventually self destruct due to their inability to control their inborn dichotomies of love vs. hate, good vs. evil, right vs. wrong, and moral vs. immoral.
Too many humans see themselves in a mirror as wise and beautiful kings and queens, instead of seeing their wicked selves filled with vile hubris. Man's behavior will forever remain unchangeable and quite predictable.
3
Whatever, little black kids should not have to walk past these statues to get to school.
Let's burn Gone with the Wind. Book AND movie. Let's pass a federal law making ownership a crime, and let's confiscate all copies of book and movie turned in by the now enlightened citizens. Let's also excise from history all evidence of the (former) existence of author Margaret Mitchell.
I mean, a book is a lot easier to destroy than a statue. Why bother getting a crane when all we need is a box of matches.
I mean, a book is a lot easier to destroy than a statue. Why bother getting a crane when all we need is a box of matches.
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You've introduced incomparable variables; as such, your argument, such as it were, is null.
4
Here is how they operate. The make all kinds of free speech claims and talk about heritage and affirmative action and color blindness, etc. Then they break your door down in the dark of the night and string up up from a tree. The KKK is responsible for thousands of murders. The Nazis, well you know what the Nazis did. So don't go around talk'n all this hogwash about law and order and the "alt-left." There are people around who know the difference between right and wrong. What is certain is that the KKK will be defeated. What is not certain yet is if the GOP is going to go down with them.
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I would like to see the Fearless Girl — or better yet, countless variations on the theme, spanning every culture, creed, race and sex — begin to appear, standing before, defying and daring every Confederate statue that still stands, starting with the statue of Lee in Charlottesville, and the travesty that defaces Stone Mountain.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/08/business/media/fearless-girl-statue-w...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/08/business/media/fearless-girl-statue-w...
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Hey Karen...you know the first sanctioned slave owner was black, right?
3
All people have owned slaves, what's your point? We are talking about a particular sin in the U.S.A.
The hundreds of Nazi sympathizers and white nationalists who marched in Charlotte - one of the largest such gatherings in recent times according to reports - are a testimony to the greatness of our nation.
Out of 350 million people, the most they could muster was a couple hundred. Pathetic.
Everyone who watches TV today can see that the South is crawling with KKK goons. Right?
Uh... no... Actual facts: As of 2016, the Anti-Defamation League puts total Klan membership nationwide at around 3000 -6000 TOTAL. ((Wikipedia)
Stop for a second and put aside the media hysteria. 3-6k in the entire USA! That is truly pathetic.
By contrast, the Nation of Islam (The Southern Poverty Law Center tracks the NOI as a black supremacist hate group.) In 2007, was estimated to be between 20,000 and 50,000. (Wikipedia)
To review:
KKK= 3-5000 (White Supremacist)
Nation of Islam = 20-50,000 (Black Supremacists)
Of course, there are other radical fringe groups as well, such as neo-Nazis and the spreading Antifa head-smashing anarchists.
There will always be some extremist kooks. The media is pouring focus, and therefore energy, into these movements, creating a self-fulfilling bogey monster because it serves a political agenda.
There is no question in my mind that there will be an attempt on Trump's life in the near future directly because of this. If successful it will split the nation like we can't imagine. THAT will not be a bogey monster, and that will be the media's fault.
Out of 350 million people, the most they could muster was a couple hundred. Pathetic.
Everyone who watches TV today can see that the South is crawling with KKK goons. Right?
Uh... no... Actual facts: As of 2016, the Anti-Defamation League puts total Klan membership nationwide at around 3000 -6000 TOTAL. ((Wikipedia)
Stop for a second and put aside the media hysteria. 3-6k in the entire USA! That is truly pathetic.
By contrast, the Nation of Islam (The Southern Poverty Law Center tracks the NOI as a black supremacist hate group.) In 2007, was estimated to be between 20,000 and 50,000. (Wikipedia)
To review:
KKK= 3-5000 (White Supremacist)
Nation of Islam = 20-50,000 (Black Supremacists)
Of course, there are other radical fringe groups as well, such as neo-Nazis and the spreading Antifa head-smashing anarchists.
There will always be some extremist kooks. The media is pouring focus, and therefore energy, into these movements, creating a self-fulfilling bogey monster because it serves a political agenda.
There is no question in my mind that there will be an attempt on Trump's life in the near future directly because of this. If successful it will split the nation like we can't imagine. THAT will not be a bogey monster, and that will be the media's fault.
7
They may be few in number, but they have a place at the center of the national table via Trump and Bannon - the table where policy is shaped and formed, where a spineless Congress is willing to overlook the seating arrangements because it is too busy trying to deliver an unearned, undeserved, and unnecessary tax cut to their billionaire buddies off the backs of Grandma's Medicare and little Susie's ACA-funded chemo.
You really don't get all of this, do you...
You really don't get all of this, do you...
They are not few in number. The Nation of Islam is close to 50k according to many estimates! We need to deal with ALL extremists. Not just the tiny KKK minority that are politically convenient.
2
When was the last time a member of the Nation of Islam or their ideas killed or injured someone? We've had multiple deaths and injuries in the last year due to followers of white supremacists and their ideas. Not just this incident in Charlottesville and Dylan Roof but also Portland, Kansas City, Seattle, etc. The most I can expect from being near a Nation of Islam follower is being preached to, annoying but not harmful, whereas white supremacists actually pose a threat of physical violence.
The focus of the resistence to these white supremancists is to keep harping on the reality that they are seeking to revive LOSER efforts. The Confederacy LOST! Nazis LOST! Racial purity causes are always losing efforts.
This point must be the lead in every piece, not the ending...but the lead. "Losers support their Loser cause."
They are the actual losers POTUS keeps speaking of...they are LOSERS not because of others winning a few scraps here amd there, but because they are self made, self rationalized, LOSERS! Trump is on the losing side of history, as well as these misguided racists.
This point must be the lead in every piece, not the ending...but the lead. "Losers support their Loser cause."
They are the actual losers POTUS keeps speaking of...they are LOSERS not because of others winning a few scraps here amd there, but because they are self made, self rationalized, LOSERS! Trump is on the losing side of history, as well as these misguided racists.
4
This country declared war on Nazis. We did not make peace with them, we wiped them out, we made peace with the German people.
Our state of war still exists on Nazis but foreign and domestic. It is time we acted like it again. This filth has a very exact agenda, the deaths of millions. They must be eradicated like any other disease
Our state of war still exists on Nazis but foreign and domestic. It is time we acted like it again. This filth has a very exact agenda, the deaths of millions. They must be eradicated like any other disease
2
Robert E. Lee was a traitor. The notion that he had to choose his state over his nation and over his oath as an Army officer is an insult to people like Union General George Thomas and 22,000 other white Virginians who fought for the Union. In fact the commander of the US Army at the start of the Civil War, Gen Winfield Scott, was a white Virginian.
Lee chose slavery over America. It was more important to him to be able to keep human beings prisoner on his plantation, than it was to honor the oath he took at West Point.
Some say Lee was a brilliant general. So was the Nazi Heinz Guderian. If Lee was a good tactician, that served only to prolong the war and kill more Americans.
The image of Lee as a kindly slaveowner who disapproved of the institution is a myth. Some southerners had reservations about breaking up slave families. Lee broke up every slave family but one on his plantation. On his raid into Pennsylvania, he allowed his troops to kidnap free black civilians and abduct them back to the Confederacy into slavery.
Let's remember the words of Union veteran and genuine American patriot John Stewart of Chambersburg, who wrote in 1903 in opposition to a plan to put a statue of Lee at Gettysburg: “If you want historical accuracy as your excuse, then place upon this field a statue of Lee holding in his hand the banner under which he fought, bearing the legend: ‘We wage this war against a government conceived in liberty and dedicated to humanity.’”
Lee chose slavery over America. It was more important to him to be able to keep human beings prisoner on his plantation, than it was to honor the oath he took at West Point.
Some say Lee was a brilliant general. So was the Nazi Heinz Guderian. If Lee was a good tactician, that served only to prolong the war and kill more Americans.
The image of Lee as a kindly slaveowner who disapproved of the institution is a myth. Some southerners had reservations about breaking up slave families. Lee broke up every slave family but one on his plantation. On his raid into Pennsylvania, he allowed his troops to kidnap free black civilians and abduct them back to the Confederacy into slavery.
Let's remember the words of Union veteran and genuine American patriot John Stewart of Chambersburg, who wrote in 1903 in opposition to a plan to put a statue of Lee at Gettysburg: “If you want historical accuracy as your excuse, then place upon this field a statue of Lee holding in his hand the banner under which he fought, bearing the legend: ‘We wage this war against a government conceived in liberty and dedicated to humanity.’”
9
Dear Tom,
The victorious always write history. In the case of Robert E. Lee most all history books treat him as honorable if misguided person. His contemporaries at the time never vilified him but rather spoke well of him. I wonder why. Was it because he actually was an honorable man or were all the historians up North just as racist as he was. Or is it that current popular opinion has turned against him.
The victorious always write history. In the case of Robert E. Lee most all history books treat him as honorable if misguided person. His contemporaries at the time never vilified him but rather spoke well of him. I wonder why. Was it because he actually was an honorable man or were all the historians up North just as racist as he was. Or is it that current popular opinion has turned against him.
1
We aren't having a debate about whether to remove the statues because the Antifa terrorists aren't letting anyone have a debate. They came in with staves, baseball bats, sharpened ferules on umbrellas and even an improvised blow torch. All the mildly interested individuals who might have an opinion are afraid to speak out. What we have is a left wing group that has had eight years of being able to say their truth but who attack anyone who tryies to say anything different. The New York Times, of all newspapers, is quite ready to allow it's writers to blame white men, usually at the rate of an article a day. It is hate speech, nothing else. Put "black men" or "gay women" or "transexuals" and see how it reads. You can silence people in public debate by intimidation but you harden the resistance. The population starts to split into radicalized groups. As I said, there isn't a national debate going on now. We are getting close to something like Civil War. Or maybe just the preliminary build up of the Weimar Republic, before the people voted for someone to fix what seems to be a broken system. Be careful of what you wish for.
6
Only academics can be such nuts. What's next? Mount Rushmore? George Washington? Thomas Jefferson? What can prevent Polish Americans to demand the removal of monuments to Ukrainian nationalists? And then Ukrainian Americans will start blowing up monuments to Polish heroes. Think about all those Kosciuszko bridges across this wonderful land of ours. People who have started this business are either idiots or criminals, or both.
4
To me, erasing these monuments seems akin to trying to erase the history of reactionary white violence behind their erection. I don't think that history is something that can be erased, and Charlottesville exemplifies the reality that it is far from over. Perhaps instead of taking them down, we can work to put them in context. Maybe signs can go up telling the stories of why they were put up in the first place, or what other things the people who argued for their erection were doing to hold down black people at the same time. We could add even bigger statues of heroes of the Civil Rights movement to places where there are statues of Confederate leaders in order to show people by comparison what true leadership and valor looks like.
If the Confederate monuments, erected during the Jim Crow era specifically to remind Blacks of who's boss, are supposed to be left as is, as some here demand, then let's also replicate what the city of Birmingham, Alabama has done, and put up life-seized statues of snarling dogs used to intimidate civil rights protesters, and children; fire hoses turned up to their highest capacities, as instructed by Bull Connor, so as to tear off the flesh of those same protesters; bombed buses of Freedom Riders (as seen in Birmingham's Civil Rights Institute).
We could even add monuments of the spitting and glass-bottle-throwing horrifically endured by Black students as they entered all-white schools post-Brown decision, or go back even further and put monuments of slave auction blocks.
For the sake of an honest approach to history, it's either all or nothing. To choose only Lee-esque statues is to romanticize empirical reality.
To wit, Lady Macbeth's "Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!" command is ever more brilliant in the context of the demand for sanitized history.
We could even add monuments of the spitting and glass-bottle-throwing horrifically endured by Black students as they entered all-white schools post-Brown decision, or go back even further and put monuments of slave auction blocks.
For the sake of an honest approach to history, it's either all or nothing. To choose only Lee-esque statues is to romanticize empirical reality.
To wit, Lady Macbeth's "Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!" command is ever more brilliant in the context of the demand for sanitized history.
5
I live in Baltimore. Last night I went to bed with Trump's vitriol.
This morning, I woke up to news that Baltimore had taken down 4 Confederate monuments over night. Our city council had voted Monday for their removal - it had been bring discussed for months. The swiftness was a surprise. I think it was a good move by Baltimore's mayor, Catherine Pugh.
I'm sure it was to avoid white supremacists coming to rally here. Maryland has it's own KKK issues, several active chapters.
I'm a news editor at a Baltimore TV station. I've seen the raw feeds from Charlottesville. I read all the AP wires. The sides were not the same.
Trump is wrong. Trump, himself, is racist. And Trump's ego will never allow him to be wrong on anything, ever.
America saw on full display yesterday what Trump learned from Roy Cohn. We saw the Trump that discriminates in housing & trades in birther rumors. We saw the man who said "If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously, OK? Just knock the hell... I promise you I will pay for the legal fees. I promise, I promise," (2/1/ 2016)
This is going to get very ugly, very fast. It's not about history & heritage. That's not the connection between the Confederate flag and swastikas.
This is about hate and intimidation.
Trump needs to directly address the statements by David Duke. It is very telling that this morning, Duke is one of the few supporting Trump.
Trump's lust for chaos will destroy the USA.
This morning, I woke up to news that Baltimore had taken down 4 Confederate monuments over night. Our city council had voted Monday for their removal - it had been bring discussed for months. The swiftness was a surprise. I think it was a good move by Baltimore's mayor, Catherine Pugh.
I'm sure it was to avoid white supremacists coming to rally here. Maryland has it's own KKK issues, several active chapters.
I'm a news editor at a Baltimore TV station. I've seen the raw feeds from Charlottesville. I read all the AP wires. The sides were not the same.
Trump is wrong. Trump, himself, is racist. And Trump's ego will never allow him to be wrong on anything, ever.
America saw on full display yesterday what Trump learned from Roy Cohn. We saw the Trump that discriminates in housing & trades in birther rumors. We saw the man who said "If you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously, OK? Just knock the hell... I promise you I will pay for the legal fees. I promise, I promise," (2/1/ 2016)
This is going to get very ugly, very fast. It's not about history & heritage. That's not the connection between the Confederate flag and swastikas.
This is about hate and intimidation.
Trump needs to directly address the statements by David Duke. It is very telling that this morning, Duke is one of the few supporting Trump.
Trump's lust for chaos will destroy the USA.
1
"Us, of course, are the dispossessed white, heterosexual men who long for a return to an imagined patriarchy where they have a seat at the head of the table, even though, in reality, those seats are reserved for white elites."
Wow... control by the elite!
Looks like the building/placement of those statues was another part of the incredible effort to help keep both the white and black southern population/culture in its place... along with lynching, bombing, language (boy, nigger, etc), Jim Crow, public education, judicial systems, etc.
So much of published American history is an outright lie.
But "new" history is seeing the light. Away from those lonely dirt roads hidden in the pines.
Wow... control by the elite!
Looks like the building/placement of those statues was another part of the incredible effort to help keep both the white and black southern population/culture in its place... along with lynching, bombing, language (boy, nigger, etc), Jim Crow, public education, judicial systems, etc.
So much of published American history is an outright lie.
But "new" history is seeing the light. Away from those lonely dirt roads hidden in the pines.
"Artifacts of hate will be lost, but their history and meaning will not..."
tossing the statues is easy, protecting their history and meaning will require diligent effort, the kind of thing that exceeds the evidence of our limited appetites and abilities demonstrated by our preference for bumpersticker rage over debate.
forget the statues entirely, (though plazas rather informative than merely commemorative might be useful) let's see how we can best convey the history, the schools aren't doing it, the conduct of daily events seems to be devoid of interest and opportunity (see anyone who follows a sport recite its history and lore without actual schooling), what then?
time to ask and offer, a media committed to information, instead of entertainment might be helpful...in all the blather over the charlottesville disaster, how many of our media outlets even mentioned that robert e lee was, for decades, a distinguished u.s. army officer, a graduate and former superintendent of west point?
tossing the statues is easy, protecting their history and meaning will require diligent effort, the kind of thing that exceeds the evidence of our limited appetites and abilities demonstrated by our preference for bumpersticker rage over debate.
forget the statues entirely, (though plazas rather informative than merely commemorative might be useful) let's see how we can best convey the history, the schools aren't doing it, the conduct of daily events seems to be devoid of interest and opportunity (see anyone who follows a sport recite its history and lore without actual schooling), what then?
time to ask and offer, a media committed to information, instead of entertainment might be helpful...in all the blather over the charlottesville disaster, how many of our media outlets even mentioned that robert e lee was, for decades, a distinguished u.s. army officer, a graduate and former superintendent of west point?
To those who question where we draw the line, who ask when do we stop applying the views and opinions of today to judge historical figures:
Should we ever stop applying the views and opinions of today to the monuments who are seen by the people of today?
I don't believe the Washington monument will ever be in any danger as long as America is a nation. But monuments are erected and demolished based on the needs of the people today, not those of people one hundred years ago, and if one hundred years from now Congress votes unanimously as the Charlottesville city council did to remove the monument, I would not hesitate to support that democratic decision.
Should we ever stop applying the views and opinions of today to the monuments who are seen by the people of today?
I don't believe the Washington monument will ever be in any danger as long as America is a nation. But monuments are erected and demolished based on the needs of the people today, not those of people one hundred years ago, and if one hundred years from now Congress votes unanimously as the Charlottesville city council did to remove the monument, I would not hesitate to support that democratic decision.
1
Getting people to actively work against the economic self interest by appealing to their racial biases has proven to be far too easy in this "land of the free, home of the brave". During the New Deal recovery from the Great Depression, Roosevelt was very much aware that were he to advocate for the civil rights of black people, as his wife urged, the recovery would be derailed. Bigotry in America is the default position for the majority. The union members I worked with all my working life, who greatly benefited from liberal policies started under the Democrats, turned into Republicans whenever the idea of removing the stigma of segregation became part of the national conversation. Leaving racial bigotry behind means you've become a civilized person of a higher order.
1
What we're seeing in America now is the result of not teaching about the causes of the Civil War, its antecedents, the context in which it was fought, about Reconstruction and where it failed, and about the Civil Rights Act of 1964. All American children should read Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer, Uncle Tom's Cabin, the Declaration of Independence, To Kill a Mockingbird, Black Boy, etc.
America was never an exclusively white nation. The Cherokee, Iroquois, Cree, Sioux, and other tribes were here long before us. Our forefathers used slaves to build the capitol in DC, to develop the South before the Civil War. We should know our own history so that we understand why a monument to a commander like General Robert E. Lee or the naming of public places after President Jefferson Davis is offensive. In Germany they don't have monuments to the German generals of WWII.
Trump and others, by asking if there are problems with George Washington or Thomas Jefferson are trivializing what slavery did to African Americans and the white slaveholders in the decades before the Civil War. If he had read the history he'd realize that slavery, as practiced by a good many in the South and condoned by others, was a moral and human wrong. Then again, Trump and the GOP seem to prefer ignorance to knowledge and cruelty to compassion.
America was never an exclusively white nation. The Cherokee, Iroquois, Cree, Sioux, and other tribes were here long before us. Our forefathers used slaves to build the capitol in DC, to develop the South before the Civil War. We should know our own history so that we understand why a monument to a commander like General Robert E. Lee or the naming of public places after President Jefferson Davis is offensive. In Germany they don't have monuments to the German generals of WWII.
Trump and others, by asking if there are problems with George Washington or Thomas Jefferson are trivializing what slavery did to African Americans and the white slaveholders in the decades before the Civil War. If he had read the history he'd realize that slavery, as practiced by a good many in the South and condoned by others, was a moral and human wrong. Then again, Trump and the GOP seem to prefer ignorance to knowledge and cruelty to compassion.
2
If Robert E. Lee saw the purpose for which his statue was "appropriated," I suspect that he too would be in favor of its removal.
3
As for working class whites who get manipulated and used by the rich, Bob Dylan wrote a song on that subject over 50 years ago called, "Only A Pawn In Their Game." Valid now as it was then.
3
Honoring racists who tried to break apart the union has always been quizzical to me. There's a place for them in the history books, for sure, but not as monuments to be glorified in this country.
Trump used the slippery slope argument and asked if this would extend to Jefferson and Washington who were slave owners and committed mass genocide against Native Americans. I think it's worth learning more about our founding fathers' true history, and all of their faults, which I don't think we learn enough about in school - however, one could argue that although they were extremely flawed at least they didn't try to divide this nation by trying to perpetuate slavery well after the tipping point has been reached by the country's collective consciousness.
Trump used the slippery slope argument and asked if this would extend to Jefferson and Washington who were slave owners and committed mass genocide against Native Americans. I think it's worth learning more about our founding fathers' true history, and all of their faults, which I don't think we learn enough about in school - however, one could argue that although they were extremely flawed at least they didn't try to divide this nation by trying to perpetuate slavery well after the tipping point has been reached by the country's collective consciousness.
1
Now is clearly an American crossroads for Saner Minds to prevail. Legendary Confederate Generals like General Robert E. Lee, General Thomas 'Stonewall' Jackson & others are Revered world over as Indomitable Military Generals of Honour. Victorious General Ulysses S.Grant surely Immortalised the name of the Union Army when at Appomattox Courthouse he Saluted the departing General Robert E. Lee after his Surrender. General Joshua Chamberlain described the Surrendering Confederate Army soldiers '..before us stood the epitome of manhood, men whom neither the fact of toils & sufferings nor of death nor of disasters nor of hopelessness could bend from their resolve.' The Victorious Union Army Forces, all along its Lines from Right to Left, Regiment after Regiment, gave the Soldiers' Salutation, the Marching Salute, as each head of a Division of marching Confederate Soldiers passed by in Surrender. In that moment, Union soldiers & Confederate soldiers were All Americans, proud of each other. If American soldiers who fought each other grimly for 4 Long Years could come together in 1865, WHAT distraught minds are pulling Americans asunder in 2017 - 152 Years Later ? Surely the Finest Soldiers & Generals of the Human Race deserve better ?
8
Many military installations are named after Confederate Generals e.g. Fort Lee and Camp Picket in Virginia, Fort Hood in Texas, Fort Rucker in Alabama, Fort Benning in Georgia and probably others. Should they be renamed after Union Generals like Fort Meade (George Meade a Union General) in Maryland or a neutral name?
2
Sorry I forgot the largest base, Fort Bragg in North Carolina named after Braxton Bragg a Confederate General. In the interests of fairness some of these should be renamed after Union Generals so that there are an equal number of Union and Confederate General named bases. I do not think that a yankee cares as much about this sort of thing as southerners do.
1
Why the Statue of Liberty Must Fall
Confederate battle flags on State houses and courthouses along with statues of Confederate war generals in conspicuous public places serve two specific purposes. The first, claimed by the alt right and their kin and happily ascribed to by many Republican sympathisers, being that it is merely memorializing their historical roots and dignity. Thus the ensuing arguement about what the nature of that history is or should be. Certainly a legitimate debate but ultimately, one that undermines itself when the most vocal advocates are clearly white supremacists reveling in their racism.
The second purpose is more readily recognized by the descendents of the slaves and all people of color. That purpose is to openly say to any non-white entering the grounds of the courthouse or State house or public park: remember who you are and where you live. You are not one of us. Your ancestors were less than us. You're a slave descendent and we lynched your relatives and created a segregated system with insulting inferiority forced on you for decades....and don't forget it. These symbols of the Confederacy primarily erected during a time of racial discrimanation and push back from reconstruction are about intimidation first.
To put it in the vernacular of the South; "boy don't forget where you are".
The second purpose is more readily recognized by the descendents of the slaves and all people of color. That purpose is to openly say to any non-white entering the grounds of the courthouse or State house or public park: remember who you are and where you live. You are not one of us. Your ancestors were less than us. You're a slave descendent and we lynched your relatives and created a segregated system with insulting inferiority forced on you for decades....and don't forget it. These symbols of the Confederacy primarily erected during a time of racial discrimanation and push back from reconstruction are about intimidation first.
To put it in the vernacular of the South; "boy don't forget where you are".
5
Every spring, I guide college students through German historical sites related to WWII and the Holocaust. Virtually to a person, my students are awestruck by the frank and honest German handling of that most awful period of their history. Instead of monuments to human oppression, the Germans have created public memory built on an unsparing examination of what happened and why. Instead of blaming a few bad apples, the Germans acknowledge the culpability of the general population. And they have built this narrative into their educational system: most German schools require students to visit Holocaust-related sites during their high-school years.
We Americans should be as honest about our ugly history of racial oppression. Then there could be none of this recurring delusion about what the Confederate "heritage" really means.
We Americans should be as honest about our ugly history of racial oppression. Then there could be none of this recurring delusion about what the Confederate "heritage" really means.
6
I'm not American, I don'live in the USA, but I know your history very well. You seem to forget that George Washington gave up his slaves when he became President but Jefferson (you know, the one who signed the Declaration of Independence) never did, because otherwise he would have gone ruined. Your history is a history of violence and abuse, from the War of Independence to the extermination of the Natives (indian reservations included). Grant and Sherman were no better than General Lee. It's just hipocrisy, the attempt to impose only one way of thinking, the alt-left is worse than the Talibans and the Islamic State.
1
Washington retained his slaves until his death. While there is evidence that Washington increasingly saw slavery as wrong and a danger to the nation's unity, he noted in his will that the slaves he owned personally should be freed only upon his wife's death. You may want to consider a more thorough reading of U.S. history before making such erroneous statements in the future.
As someone who lost relatives in the Holocaust, I certainly wouldn't want to walk past monuments glorifying the Nazis (much less watch them march down the street), so I understand the revulsion these monuments inspire. I don't, however, think we should support removal-by-mob. Letting individuals decide what is morally reprehensible and unacceptable sets a dangerous precedent. Is it okay, for example, for people to destroy statues outside a Catholic church because of the sex-abuse scandals? Or remove any plaques or busts memorializing benefactors who fund research facilities that perform cruel animal experiments? Or demand the removal of logos or branding of corporations that have poisoned the environment and its citizens? Let me be clear that I am not equating the legacy of slavery with these other examples. But not everyone will make the distinction and will see this as license to vindicate personal trauma. Vigilantism is never a good idea.
8
Wallpaper fails to confront the fact that nazi genocide was committed by a legally elected state, by law. So would his so-called 'mob-vigilantism' have been morally justifiable against Hitler?
Civil Disobedience by definition states that people must occasionally hold themselves to higher moral standards that are given by legal statues. So in passing, yes, katholicks are morally obliged to tear down statues of sex-abusing priests. And yes (hee-haw), had Washington lived to be 130 as an 1861 slave owner who supported southern treason, then he, too would have to be held morally accountable.
Civil Disobedience by definition states that people must occasionally hold themselves to higher moral standards that are given by legal statues. So in passing, yes, katholicks are morally obliged to tear down statues of sex-abusing priests. And yes (hee-haw), had Washington lived to be 130 as an 1861 slave owner who supported southern treason, then he, too would have to be held morally accountable.
Excellent insights Professor Cox. Your explanation of the white racists' motivation and their being used by the white elite is correct. Hopefully, their embrace of failed regimes' banners actually foretell their demise, however, the longevity of hate for the other does not bode well.
Benedict donald's involvement with them though presents an additional or different problem, whether he believes their rot or not. He is doing Vladimir's bidding through fostering dissension.
PROSECUTE RUSSIAGATE!
Benedict donald's involvement with them though presents an additional or different problem, whether he believes their rot or not. He is doing Vladimir's bidding through fostering dissension.
PROSECUTE RUSSIAGATE!
4
According to the Global Slavery Index ( https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/ ) there are - as I type this - 48.5 million people that are kept in slavery around the world.
Where's the moral indignation over this?
Where's the moral indignation over this?
2
Considering that most Americans are oblivious to their history I find the act of removing statues a waste of time. Very few people pay attention to statues in cities' parks, and even if they do they surely won't know anything about the people that they represent.
Removing statues of people who happened to be on the wrong side of history may please a few historians and a handful of politicians, but overall is not just useless, it's dangerous.
Removing statues of people who happened to be on the wrong side of history may please a few historians and a handful of politicians, but overall is not just useless, it's dangerous.
5
these people were traitors not just on the wrong side of history. That definition fits them exactly. Pick up the constitution for the first time on your life and read treason defined
You're rationalization do nothing more than expose your love of treason.
America love it or leave it. there's the door pal, use it
You're rationalization do nothing more than expose your love of treason.
America love it or leave it. there's the door pal, use it
I disagree with the author's opinions.
5
Racism is only part of the problem with Confederate monuments. They are first and foremost symbols of treason, glorifying an armed rebellion against the government that killed countless loyal Americans and tore up the country.
5
weird, the US has no problem supporting the Syrian rebels today?
To purge history is to recast it in the light of current regimes. Orwell spoke to this point, yet here we are on that slippery slope. The history of this country is full of dark times and ugly moments, however, it still is the path we have taken to bring us to this moment. Bottom line is simple if you control the past, you will rule the present and own the future.
3
no one is purging history. the treason of this filth is taught in schools. Building monuments to treason is not a history lesson - it's more treason
Are statues responsible for poverty in inner cities? Can we do something substantive rather than tear down monuments on the National Register of Historic Places. Focus for a moment on the tragedy ongoing in Baltimore, MD. More than 180 Americans have died there so far this year in gun violence. Many of the dead are African American. http://www.npr.org/2017/07/22/538705511/nobody-kill-anybody-working-for-...
2
Treason and racism often travel together as confederate history shows. Trump's refusal to denounce either in Virginia and the US signifies his personal evolving disaster with Russia and the US electorate.
2
Well stated. The periods during which these monuments were erected were periods in which some whites worked to terrorize African Americans into subservient non-entities. Fortunately, I am not aware of an comparable examples. However, can you imagine the Nationalists in Germany erecting monuments of Hitler, Eichmann, Goring, and Goebbels?
Can you imagine the international outrage? This is precisely the threat these monuments of traitors to the United States of America pose to our fellow citizens.
Can you imagine the international outrage? This is precisely the threat these monuments of traitors to the United States of America pose to our fellow citizens.
6
The monuments to the Confederacy are all monuments to white supremacy. Their presence picks at the scabs of our racist history, and encourage our present day racists.
On one hand, these monuments all need to be taken down. But there may be some historical value in keeping some. They are physical reminders that we have an ugly racist past that continues to haunt us. Rather than destroy these historical tokens, perhaps we should preserve some of them to serve as reminders of this ugly past.
But they must not stand in public places. Taxes paid by today's Black Americans are being used to preserve and maintain public monuments to white supremacy. We are still using public policy to abuse our black citizens and to glorify treason.
To preserve some of this history as a means to teach about white supremacy, we should find some private museums to take some of these monuments into their private collections and display them as teaching objects. Prohibit any one institution from collecting more than one or two monuments, to avoid creating shrines to the Confederacy, and require the museums to tell the full story of the reason we fought a civil war: slavery. We won that battle, but we haven’t defeated racism. Erasing the monuments will not erase our racism, but could serve to erase some important history lessons.
To the victors belong the spoils. Museum collections of confederate monuments should be restricted to private museums located within the victorious North. Poetic justice.
On one hand, these monuments all need to be taken down. But there may be some historical value in keeping some. They are physical reminders that we have an ugly racist past that continues to haunt us. Rather than destroy these historical tokens, perhaps we should preserve some of them to serve as reminders of this ugly past.
But they must not stand in public places. Taxes paid by today's Black Americans are being used to preserve and maintain public monuments to white supremacy. We are still using public policy to abuse our black citizens and to glorify treason.
To preserve some of this history as a means to teach about white supremacy, we should find some private museums to take some of these monuments into their private collections and display them as teaching objects. Prohibit any one institution from collecting more than one or two monuments, to avoid creating shrines to the Confederacy, and require the museums to tell the full story of the reason we fought a civil war: slavery. We won that battle, but we haven’t defeated racism. Erasing the monuments will not erase our racism, but could serve to erase some important history lessons.
To the victors belong the spoils. Museum collections of confederate monuments should be restricted to private museums located within the victorious North. Poetic justice.
3
Thank you for your understanding and insightful post. I think your ideas could solve the debate and reassure both sides that we can remember our country's history while acknowledging its flaws.
The Civil War was more about states rights than it was about slavery and white supremacism. There were racists on both sides. Washington, Lincoln, Jefferson, and many more did not believe that blacks were the equals of whites. That is racism. Racism is wrong, but does it totally define a person? If we removed the statues of men and women who shared those views, there would be virtually no statues left.
5
Sorry but the claim that the Civil War was not about slavery but states' rights is revisionist nonsense. One only has to read the seceding States declarations to see how important the slavery issue was to,them.
1
The Confederates were traitors, pure and simple. And "states rights" was all about the right to own slaves in those states. Quit kidding yourself.
maybe all those statues could go into a new museum about the history of racism and conflict in America
3
The Civil War is by no means over. The GOP is the alter ego of the Confederacy.
3
"Us, of course, are the dispossessed white, heterosexual men ..." I would amend that to "avowed heterosexual." You can fairly assume that a certain percentage of the young men drawn to the mostly male white nationalist,Neo-Nazi groups are in fact ashamed homesexuals fighting their own inner demons over sexuality.
1
Those statues have been there for decades and now, all of a sudden, Karen L. Cox demands they come down. Gee whiz. Just like that. How timely.
5
yes your monuments to treason have been there a while. too long a while
The truth is, these Confederate monuments are monuments to traitors who fought against the United States of America in order to preserve slavery. Pure and simple. Why do we want them around?
5
Do we even need to pass a law to make these statues illegal? Are they not acts and symbols of sedition? Lincoln wanted to unite the country after the Civil War so did not pursue prosecution of the individuals depicted in these statues. The people who erected them decades later most definitely should have been prosecuted as well as any current protesters in support of them. Could you imagine if Germans were erecting statues of Hitler or Goebels in Germany or HERE!
30
What about those general, leaders and presidents who were responsible for the genocide of Native Americans? Forget the germans. What about slave owners such as George washington? US Capital need to ne renamed.
I don't believe the issue is that those who want the symbols removed are obliterating, or whitewashing, history. It is more that we are looking for history to be more truthful. The statues were erected to avoid history and to teach subsequent generations a whitewashed lesson: that the southern rebels were virtuous despite their loss. At first blush, that makes sense from a southerner's point of view. After all, as are most fallen soldiers, the Civil War dead (on both sides) were little more than children. And, from their point of view, those on the "losing" side lost property. But over the course of over 150 years, as a united nation and a generally united society, we have agreed that one aspect of southern property values had no legitimacy after all: slavery. Regardless of the various economic intricacies underlying the Civil War, the most enduring lesson of the Civil War remains that the buying and selling of our African American citizens' ancestors was wrong, immoral, and needed to end.
Unfortunately, this lesson gets diluted when there is another lesson being taught at the same time. In the name of community pride, local educators trot out the children to see the monuments to the Civil War leaders and tell the story of their tremendous sacrifice at the hands of the cruel and murderous Yankees. It's almost like the Jesus story, and it resonates too much. The monuments have to go. There cannot be another Dylan Roof.
Unfortunately, this lesson gets diluted when there is another lesson being taught at the same time. In the name of community pride, local educators trot out the children to see the monuments to the Civil War leaders and tell the story of their tremendous sacrifice at the hands of the cruel and murderous Yankees. It's almost like the Jesus story, and it resonates too much. The monuments have to go. There cannot be another Dylan Roof.
6
Reconstruction and reconciliation from the civil war to civil rights have failed. Perhaps localities could remove monuments symbolizing these eras and create inwardly looking community spaces that document the all the lives lost in wars, riots, lynchings due to hate, racism and prejudice. We just need to leave space for additional names.
1
Perhaps this whole Confederate Statues thing is just convenient to some.
As a foreigner I was struck, when learning in middle school about the origins of Thanksgiving, that most American of holidays, between it and the subsequent officially organized and long-drawn out genocide of the Native Americans.
Public memory is very selective, it would seem.
As a foreigner I was struck, when learning in middle school about the origins of Thanksgiving, that most American of holidays, between it and the subsequent officially organized and long-drawn out genocide of the Native Americans.
Public memory is very selective, it would seem.
5
The actions immediately after the Civil War by the US military against the Native Americans, with the full encouragement of the government and the north, call into question the noble motives of the Civil War.
George Custer was no hero, and he was not alone in depredations against the Native Americans. Let's drop the holier than thou attitudes toward the south.
George Custer was no hero, and he was not alone in depredations against the Native Americans. Let's drop the holier than thou attitudes toward the south.
1
They aren’t about heritage or history. They ARE American History.
5
they are American traitors who should be displayed in the chains they forced on others
Having read 782 comments as of 8:23 AM on August 16th
I am struck as, have been other commentators, on how little history
most Americans and Commentators seem to know.
I am not talking about the "correct interpretation" of history
just a general sense.
The Southerners on the whole did not fight for slavery as much as they
felt the Federal Government was intruding into their lives in ways that were
Un-Constitutional. Now were they misled by politicians who were wealthy and did not want to give up their slaves - yes.
As for the Union soldiers - what good did it do them to die for the Union
once they were dead ? And if the North was fighting to "free the slaves"
they sure had an odd way of showing it after the War when ex-slaves were not greeted with open arms 'Up-North".
The Constitution says nothing about secession.
Many Northerners urged Lincoln to just let the South leave.
The Supreme Court in the Dred Scott case affirmed that Slavery
was Constitutional.
Leaving it to the towns/cities/counties and States to decide what
to do with these statues is the proper course of action. Let the
people, the very people for whom the Constitution was established
of each State decide as they see fit.
Nothing Trump says over this issue changes anything.
If you really want to help people then help:
the poor, the old, the homeless,
those who cannot afford medical care,
those who have no jobs.
Then your monument to making America
a more just, fair nation
will be a living one.
I am struck as, have been other commentators, on how little history
most Americans and Commentators seem to know.
I am not talking about the "correct interpretation" of history
just a general sense.
The Southerners on the whole did not fight for slavery as much as they
felt the Federal Government was intruding into their lives in ways that were
Un-Constitutional. Now were they misled by politicians who were wealthy and did not want to give up their slaves - yes.
As for the Union soldiers - what good did it do them to die for the Union
once they were dead ? And if the North was fighting to "free the slaves"
they sure had an odd way of showing it after the War when ex-slaves were not greeted with open arms 'Up-North".
The Constitution says nothing about secession.
Many Northerners urged Lincoln to just let the South leave.
The Supreme Court in the Dred Scott case affirmed that Slavery
was Constitutional.
Leaving it to the towns/cities/counties and States to decide what
to do with these statues is the proper course of action. Let the
people, the very people for whom the Constitution was established
of each State decide as they see fit.
Nothing Trump says over this issue changes anything.
If you really want to help people then help:
the poor, the old, the homeless,
those who cannot afford medical care,
those who have no jobs.
Then your monument to making America
a more just, fair nation
will be a living one.
8
The comment above was approved in under 30 seconds.
Now I know the NY Times has gone to computers making the
initial and perhaps final decision on comments, but I do doubt
that it was read by a person that quickly.
Since I think it deserved a NYTimes Pick -
for it represents a differing view that the rest of the comments
and sums up the problem at hand -
I would ask that a human consider the comment,
or reconsider the comment as the case may be.
And I still wonder why I do not have verified status.
Now I know the NY Times has gone to computers making the
initial and perhaps final decision on comments, but I do doubt
that it was read by a person that quickly.
Since I think it deserved a NYTimes Pick -
for it represents a differing view that the rest of the comments
and sums up the problem at hand -
I would ask that a human consider the comment,
or reconsider the comment as the case may be.
And I still wonder why I do not have verified status.
2
John: It would seen that your body of work lies a-moldering in the grave ....
1
I strongly recommend to all commenters "Race and Reunion" by David Blight, a foremost historian of the Civil War -- its causes and its continuing impact on American culture.
Blight's basic theme is that while the CSA lost the Civil War, it won the PR messaging by recasting the conflict as if it were the stuff of Arthurian legend, filled -- on both sides -- with valor, chivalry and honor. Slavery, wrapped in the shroud of "state's rights," is hardly if ever mentioned. Instead, Southern apologists relied on our nation's reverence for all things military to position the Civil War as merely a fight among brothers who all desired a peaceful way of life (with slavery part of the Southern way of life).
The various statues and monuments to the "fallen heroes" of the Southern cause were mostly erected years after 1865, by Confederate veterans organizations, with a substantial boost from the Daughters of the Confderacy.
The deaths of 600,000 combatants -- one of the bloodiest wars in all history -- demonstrates beyond any doubt that the Civil War was far more than a mere dispute between chivalrous rivals. It was a war for the soul of America, a violent cleansing of a cancer in our midst. The statues of Lee, Jackson, Beauregard, et. al, are concrete and steel manifestations of a myth, and they deserve no further honor from historians, or you and me.
Blight's basic theme is that while the CSA lost the Civil War, it won the PR messaging by recasting the conflict as if it were the stuff of Arthurian legend, filled -- on both sides -- with valor, chivalry and honor. Slavery, wrapped in the shroud of "state's rights," is hardly if ever mentioned. Instead, Southern apologists relied on our nation's reverence for all things military to position the Civil War as merely a fight among brothers who all desired a peaceful way of life (with slavery part of the Southern way of life).
The various statues and monuments to the "fallen heroes" of the Southern cause were mostly erected years after 1865, by Confederate veterans organizations, with a substantial boost from the Daughters of the Confderacy.
The deaths of 600,000 combatants -- one of the bloodiest wars in all history -- demonstrates beyond any doubt that the Civil War was far more than a mere dispute between chivalrous rivals. It was a war for the soul of America, a violent cleansing of a cancer in our midst. The statues of Lee, Jackson, Beauregard, et. al, are concrete and steel manifestations of a myth, and they deserve no further honor from historians, or you and me.
4
The "States Rights" argument is one of the lies they have invented to add to that false story. The fact is the South opposed states rights because they opposed the right of northern states to set slaves free and keep them safe from being sent back.
The "lost cause" is nothing but the preservation of slavery. Try reading the constitution of the Confederacy and the constitutions of the individual states. They were modeled on the U.S. documents, with the careful insertion of clauses to assert that slavery may not be rescinded. Yes, the Civil War could be construed as being about states rights. But the only right they wanted was that of keeping slaves.
8
Removing Confederate statutes should be done only by civic authorities according to relevant statutes and ordinances. Vigilante efforts are simply destruction of puiblic property and punishable by law.
Odious groups--depending upon your persuasion--are still entitled to First Amendment rights of peaceful assembly and free speech. Check with the ACLU first, vilify if you must--and then ignore them. Violence only begets more violence.
Odious groups--depending upon your persuasion--are still entitled to First Amendment rights of peaceful assembly and free speech. Check with the ACLU first, vilify if you must--and then ignore them. Violence only begets more violence.
7
Robert E. Lee has long been regarded as a symbol of character and virtue. In his "A History of the English Speaking Peoples," Churchill refers to Lee as "one of the noblest Americans who ever lived, and one of the greatest captains known in the annals of war." He also referred to the Civil War as one the whole the noblest and least avoidable of all the great mass-conflicts of which till then there was record."
9
That doesn't change the fact that he was guilty of high treason and directly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of loyal American soldiers.
2
For those of us who are interested in history, the monuments represent a moment in time, a teaching moment for our children also.
11
I understand what you are saying - but at least here in TN and I am guessing most of the South - we are surrounded by Civil War battlefields and graveyards which offer lots of teaching opportunities. As for the Nathan Bedford Forrest statues in Nashville and Memphis - I think the better lesson would be: We once had statues that glorified and honored men who fought to preserve a society that enslaved other humans, we now realize that honoring such historic figures who supported slavery is wrong and unjust and therefore we removed them.
1
We build statues to honor people, not to teach history.
2
That "moment in time" was a time of segregation, lynching and hatred. The confederacy was long dead.
In the wake of recent violence in Charlottesville, Virginia, it is clear that America has never come to terms with the end of the civil war.
Despite the national monuments, the thousands upon thousands of civil war re-enactments, and the countless books, movies, TV series and historic sites that remind us of that violent and precarious chapter in our nation’s history, the wounds have not healed.
The controversy that surrounds the removal of confederate statues from public spaces offers our country a unique opportunity face our fears and engage in a national dialogue of truth and reconciliation about the civil war. Our country badly needs to get to work telling the story of what happened as truthfully as possible.
I personally believe the confederate statues should come down (perhaps a few could be relocated to appropriate civil war historic sites, given the right context) but this should only be done as part of a larger national dialogue, led by a commission created by Congress, that borrows the best techniques from the truth and reconciliation commissions created in the wake of brutal internal conflicts in South Africa and Rwanda, to confront our nation’s lingering racism and disputes caused by the civil war.
Our country deserves a true dialogue on reconciliation if we are to move past the lingering distrust, anger, inequality and racism that continues to threaten our democracy more than a century after the civil war.
Despite the national monuments, the thousands upon thousands of civil war re-enactments, and the countless books, movies, TV series and historic sites that remind us of that violent and precarious chapter in our nation’s history, the wounds have not healed.
The controversy that surrounds the removal of confederate statues from public spaces offers our country a unique opportunity face our fears and engage in a national dialogue of truth and reconciliation about the civil war. Our country badly needs to get to work telling the story of what happened as truthfully as possible.
I personally believe the confederate statues should come down (perhaps a few could be relocated to appropriate civil war historic sites, given the right context) but this should only be done as part of a larger national dialogue, led by a commission created by Congress, that borrows the best techniques from the truth and reconciliation commissions created in the wake of brutal internal conflicts in South Africa and Rwanda, to confront our nation’s lingering racism and disputes caused by the civil war.
Our country deserves a true dialogue on reconciliation if we are to move past the lingering distrust, anger, inequality and racism that continues to threaten our democracy more than a century after the civil war.
8
The problem is that too many people still view the Confederacy as an honorable cause.
If we melt down Confederate statues, whose statues will replace them? We are a nation (like most) that puts up statues in our parks.
In 2003, as my husband I entered our 2 year of retirement bliss, we celebrated by taking our camper out on the road and circumnavigated North America...Washington State to the Canadian Hwy to St. Johns, Newfoundland back to Maine, down the East coast to Virginia then across our country via I-40 and back home to Spokane, Wa. It took us almost 6 months. Everywhere, and I do mean everywhere, we stopped to read the histories of where we were at that moment. And we learned amazing [previously unknown to us] things from Gettysburg to the Fields of Abraham in French Quebec, from the table where the Canadian Constitution was signed on Prince Edward Island in 1865 to the chairs honoring the dead of the Oklahoma City Federal Building, from Cape Cod and Boston to the Redwood Forests of California....those stories came via plaques and monuments. Congressman John Lewis has said something to the effect of, don't remove but rather add a correct historical narrative of the person/event so that we can learn from it. We cannot learn if we do not know the history of what happened in these "hallowed grounds". Gettysburg got it right, statues, plaques and museum....we need more of that, not less.
10
Battlefields and museums are fine. Not the town square or courthouse.
3
Statues do not make a country.......deeds and words make a country.
You misconceive the facts here. These monuments to the unambiguous evil of the Confederacy are not in places of "hallowed ground" or where events deserve a symbolic recognition. They are very obnoxiously placed in places to remind black people that they had no rights the whites around them did not wish to let them have. Then to tell one and all of the fact that white supremacy was the law of the land where these monuments exist and that those who placed this monument intend to bring white supremacy back to its "rightful" place as the controlling power behind all of society.
No one is going to forget the Confederacy or the civil war but with these monuments gone more people will learn to look at the Confederacy properly as the unambiguously evil thing it was and not hold silly false and meaningless opinions which let them off the hook for being so evil like "they fought for their beliefs" as if fighting for the belief in white supremacy was anything but wrong. It creates the false idea that there is equity between the wrong of white supremacy and t hose who oppose sick ideas like that.
No one is going to forget the Confederacy or the civil war but with these monuments gone more people will learn to look at the Confederacy properly as the unambiguously evil thing it was and not hold silly false and meaningless opinions which let them off the hook for being so evil like "they fought for their beliefs" as if fighting for the belief in white supremacy was anything but wrong. It creates the false idea that there is equity between the wrong of white supremacy and t hose who oppose sick ideas like that.
A failure on the part of Americans to appreciate that when these men(Confederates) acted to defend there home and institutions they did so as honest men, The context of their world view must be appreciated. Judging history in hindsight with simplistic views and conclusions is a mark of ignorance.
15
They took up arms against their country. They lost. By supporting that wrongful cause, they lost their honor.
1
And so did Hitler, and Stalin and Lenin and Mao and the man Trump like to tryu to make himself look like Mussolini. Every one of them were "honesty" enacting what they believed in. Does that make those beliefs and ideas any less wrong or what they did any less wrong? I think not.
But nice try to use the same old mechanism of false equity between evil and opposition to evil so you can soften its image.
But nice try to use the same old mechanism of false equity between evil and opposition to evil so you can soften its image.
I simply see no justification for memorializing, let alone appreciating, traitors, murderers and human traffickers. They were the last holdouts in a slave trade that the rest of the civilized world abandoned as being morally repugnant. That's the context you're saying we should appreciate? Sounds like your intimate with ignorance.
Many fighters from the Taliban were offended by what the great Buddhist monument represented in Bamiyan, Afghanistan, and made the decision to destroy it. More recently, ISIS trashed museums in Iraq and demolished most of the remains of the ancient city of Palmyra in Syria. According to the reasoning laid out in this article, if ancient forms of idol worship are offensive to some, then the people who took matters into their own hands and obliterated an important part of our human story once and for all were justified in making this unilateral decision. When one person sees racism in a statue, and in a moment of passion acts to put it out of his or her midst, then it does a disservice to those of us who do not necessarily hold their views. In September, the restoration of the statue of Robert E. Lee in Arlington National Cemetery will be complete; it would be wonderful if it served as a symbol of reconciliation, not of the hatred that others have ascribed to it.
12
How can a statue of a racist traitor serve the cause of reconciliation?
We're having a Reign of Terror on statues that would make Robespierre blush. My ancesters lived in Philadephia since before the Civil War, in which they fought for the Union. Drafted, I met many Southerners, some who became friends. From their perspective the Civil War was about Independence. Freedom from Northern states that were more wealty, populous and politically powerful, trying to impose their ideas and their culture on a very rural, mostly poor, very independent Southern culture. Statutes were erected of people who were, and mostly are, Southern heroes, freedom fighters, the way William Wallace statues are today scattered across Scotland. I can't help but think the people who are fighting (often literally) to pull down these statutes are doing so for today's politics and seem to delight in sticking a thumb in the eye of those who honor the men who fought for their freedom from the Yankees, thereby almost ensuring a stong reaction. And today, in Philadephia, the big issue is a statue of former Mayor and police commissioner, Frank Rizzo, a man who many of us admired as a law and order man, that stands in front of City Hall. A mob of protesters are gathering daily at the Rizzo statue, wanting it down. So I guess that's politics in 21st century America: hero one day, despised the next. Off with their statues!
10
I agree with you.
@THOMAS WILLIAMS:
Your question goes to the crux of the historical reality.
What do we do with all these proud monuments to the history of genocide
and slavery, which accurately portray how we came to be where we are now.
If you are descended from the losers in this historical drama, you feel pain and humiliation upon seeing them, and yes, you want all of them torn down.
If you descend from the winners, you may feel some sense of power
and pride due to these men who gave you an inheritance that is beyond price.
You probably don't want to think of the horrors they committed to give
you your place in our society, and to keep others down, to this very day.
You feel no pain, no humiliation, no empathy.
And you probably do not want these statues removed.
You should think on this.
Your question goes to the crux of the historical reality.
What do we do with all these proud monuments to the history of genocide
and slavery, which accurately portray how we came to be where we are now.
If you are descended from the losers in this historical drama, you feel pain and humiliation upon seeing them, and yes, you want all of them torn down.
If you descend from the winners, you may feel some sense of power
and pride due to these men who gave you an inheritance that is beyond price.
You probably don't want to think of the horrors they committed to give
you your place in our society, and to keep others down, to this very day.
You feel no pain, no humiliation, no empathy.
And you probably do not want these statues removed.
You should think on this.
1
Their fight for "freedom" was a treasonous attempt to overthrow the government of the US in order to perpetuate slavery. If the northern states were wealthier it's because the slave based southern economy was rotten to the core.
1
Trump is far more offensive than any monument. His hatred is breeding hatred - in real time. Can someone take him down. Mr. Mueller . . ?
8
Gee, is he worse than Bush? Or is it the most current Republican president is always worse than the last one?
I can't seem to find much info about the photo of the statue that accompanies this article.
2
That's because it isn't an actual photo. It's photoshopped...and poorly so.
1
Karen, are you gonna rip down all the pilgrim monuments?
5
Why would you want to rip down pilgrim monuments? They had nothing to do with the southern states attempting seceding from the union.
Your point? Or just mindless deflection?
1
Just a "po boy" from Carolina. Ancestors fought in the Civil War and every other war before and since. I was in uniform for the USN for four years. Personally, I'd rather read the history than to genuflect to statues, monuments and long past battle flags. Kind of difficult to learn from history though if we obliterate a part of history that is uncomfortable. The issue with tangible mementos is a bad signal. I don't need to apologize for feeling some honor about my ancestors even if they were on the wrong side and were, in fact, supporting their own masters not their own good. Put these monuments away from constant sight. Put them in museums, but not very many. It is our past and we need to be reminded of how the Confederates and slave owners went awry. We don't need to respect those errors and venerate them with statues.
12
Well said.
This article is entirely misguided.
The fact that 400 goons decide to pick a Robert E. lee statue as their "rallying cry" does not suddenly transform a reasonable, decent man into a Nazi. By all accounts, from all contemporaneous sources, even among those who spent several years trying to kill him, the consensus was that Robert E. Lee was about as a good a man as the middle nineteenth century of the USA could produce. Now the fact that the USA in 1861 was a missynistic, racist, homophobic, exploitative hell hole in many ways is sad and how I wish it were not true. Most of all, please contemplate ta year into the civil war, 3000 slaves were still working for their masters in Washington DC. Abraham Lincoln saw slaves in Washington every day for the first year of the war --- so, let me get this straight: we are supposed to consider Robert E. Lee a villain "who fought for slavery" while the USA held slaves throughout the war. Remember: while Lincoln's 1863 Emancipation plan freed the slaves in the rebellious states, those in border states like Delaware were not affected until the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment in December 1865 (after the war was over for six months). So let's think more complex thoughts about our shared racist past as a nation and leave these dumb monuments alone.
The fact that 400 goons decide to pick a Robert E. lee statue as their "rallying cry" does not suddenly transform a reasonable, decent man into a Nazi. By all accounts, from all contemporaneous sources, even among those who spent several years trying to kill him, the consensus was that Robert E. Lee was about as a good a man as the middle nineteenth century of the USA could produce. Now the fact that the USA in 1861 was a missynistic, racist, homophobic, exploitative hell hole in many ways is sad and how I wish it were not true. Most of all, please contemplate ta year into the civil war, 3000 slaves were still working for their masters in Washington DC. Abraham Lincoln saw slaves in Washington every day for the first year of the war --- so, let me get this straight: we are supposed to consider Robert E. Lee a villain "who fought for slavery" while the USA held slaves throughout the war. Remember: while Lincoln's 1863 Emancipation plan freed the slaves in the rebellious states, those in border states like Delaware were not affected until the passage of the Thirteenth Amendment in December 1865 (after the war was over for six months). So let's think more complex thoughts about our shared racist past as a nation and leave these dumb monuments alone.
12
I would suspect that if Robert E. Lee saw the purpose with which his statue was "appropriated," he too would be in favor of its removal.
here here!
I think we should put Benedict Arnold's statue next to the "Southern Gentleman" Robert E. Lee.
I think we should put Benedict Arnold's statue next to the "Southern Gentleman" Robert E. Lee.
Lee had his slaves whipped and then salt water poured on their lacerations. Stop believing the nursery tales and get real.
1
there are no monuments to Nazis in Germany.
there should be no monuments to Confederate traitors in America.
there should be no monuments to Confederate traitors in America.
17
According to world and US law, every person who took up arms against the United States committed TREASON.
3
Yes because Confederate soldiers were so like Nazis. such an ignorant statement.
2
I'll wager you could scour every inch of public space in Germany and find not one statue of Adolph Hitler.
Just sayin...
Just sayin...
11
Yeah, the Germans just want to forget the evils they wrought, all within my parents' lifetime. But we won't let them.
For example, I own many books about Hitler and the Nazi era. Including Main Kampf.
I will tell you that if more Germans had read Mein Kampf instead of dismissing it as the unhinged drivel of an unemployed Austrian painter, we would not have had a Hitler.
For example, I own many books about Hitler and the Nazi era. Including Main Kampf.
I will tell you that if more Germans had read Mein Kampf instead of dismissing it as the unhinged drivel of an unemployed Austrian painter, we would not have had a Hitler.
1
They say the Confederate leaders and generals are part of our history so statues are appropriate honorarium. Or they try to change the premise to say the objection is that statues are to those who owned slaves - like Washington. No, the Confederate leaders being honored by statues left the country and then started a war against the United States of America at Fort Sumter where we were their enemies.
If fighting against the United States and killing our people is a qualifier for a statue or monument to their place in US history I ask then were are the statues and monuments to King George, Adolf Hitler, Musslini, Emperor Hirohito, or more recently Ho Chi Minh, Ayatollah Khomeini, or Osama Ben Ladin?
Where are the public statues to the great military heroes Heinrich Himmler, Erwin Rommel, Hermann Göring, Hideki Tojo, Osami Nagano, or Isoroku Yamamoto in our parks and government facilities? All leaders and generals of enemies of those who fought wars against the United States? Is it that they weren’t American’s first? I am not sure which is worse an outsider enemy or a traitorous enemy.
We have memorials to the victims. We don’t erect statues to the Boston Marathon bombers, the bombers or Timothy McVeigh. Remember the victims of the war including the soldiers who died, don't honor those that led a revolt against our country.
If fighting against the United States and killing our people is a qualifier for a statue or monument to their place in US history I ask then were are the statues and monuments to King George, Adolf Hitler, Musslini, Emperor Hirohito, or more recently Ho Chi Minh, Ayatollah Khomeini, or Osama Ben Ladin?
Where are the public statues to the great military heroes Heinrich Himmler, Erwin Rommel, Hermann Göring, Hideki Tojo, Osami Nagano, or Isoroku Yamamoto in our parks and government facilities? All leaders and generals of enemies of those who fought wars against the United States? Is it that they weren’t American’s first? I am not sure which is worse an outsider enemy or a traitorous enemy.
We have memorials to the victims. We don’t erect statues to the Boston Marathon bombers, the bombers or Timothy McVeigh. Remember the victims of the war including the soldiers who died, don't honor those that led a revolt against our country.
13
Dear Mr. Trump:
Washington and Jefferson (and many Founding Fathers) owned slaves and BUILT the Union.
Robert E. Lee and other Southerners tried to DESTROY the union. This distinction matters, and the 80 years between the events also matter.
"States' Rights" has been a code phrase for a huge lie about why the Civil War began (that it was not about slavery), and it has been a code phrase for allowing local lynching and local Jim Crow.
All lies and symbols of lies that sustained the Southern, racial, caste system, should be removed as part of a great return to honesty, and as part of removing the shame of the premature end to Reconstruction (which made Hayes president in 1876).
Finally, please, I know that you (in particular, you) cannot un-become a racist, but I ask you to have the decorum to hide it.
Sincerely,
Craig A. Mason
Washington and Jefferson (and many Founding Fathers) owned slaves and BUILT the Union.
Robert E. Lee and other Southerners tried to DESTROY the union. This distinction matters, and the 80 years between the events also matter.
"States' Rights" has been a code phrase for a huge lie about why the Civil War began (that it was not about slavery), and it has been a code phrase for allowing local lynching and local Jim Crow.
All lies and symbols of lies that sustained the Southern, racial, caste system, should be removed as part of a great return to honesty, and as part of removing the shame of the premature end to Reconstruction (which made Hayes president in 1876).
Finally, please, I know that you (in particular, you) cannot un-become a racist, but I ask you to have the decorum to hide it.
Sincerely,
Craig A. Mason
15
A lot of confederate monuments went up to help heal divisions after the Civil War. The goal was to deemphasize the view that the North had defeated the South and instead move to a place where everybody was Americans again and the war could be viewed in an historical context without old rivalries. A century and a half later, it's time to rip off the band aids and emphasize the triumphalism of the North and the defeat and subjugation of the South. The North won, lets have more victory parades and to hell with the South.
2
The apologist "argument" lauding boys who died fighting for the Confederacy completely overlooks the fact that many of the rank-and-file were from poor communities and didn't own slaves. They were conscripted from age 16 so that RICH WHITE Southerners could continue owning HUMANS and keep their agrarian Southern economy operating. BUT these boys certainly did enjoy the social perks of that white patriarchy. How? LBJ was right: "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."
13
Pro-Trump Gov. Bevin of KY declared the CSA monuments have to stay 'cause to remove them would be to 'sanitize history'. And I say, correct, as Germany removed all statues of Hitler and the nazis. These tired CSA artifacts are monuments to the failed rebellion of a society built on slavey. Bring 'em down!
7
However, Germany kept several of the death camps and built monuments of atonement on their grounds as a reminder of the atrocities that happened there.
2
Why do people of your ilk continue to compare the Southern confederacy to Nazis? that makes no sense from an ideology or reality standpoint.
Sometimes, senile loonies make weak points. Here, it's trump equivocating angry progressives with fascists. So actually, he's thinly correct that violence demands the presence of both parties.
So we need to ask ourselves if it would not be far better to ignore the fascists, whose entire m/o, like that of petulant children, is to demand attention. Direct confrontation is what these people live for; it's best to hold back on the idealist impulse in favor of a more indirect approach. The fight against fascism is far too important to be left to the idealists.
I advocate Civil Disobedience; angry students should not be protesting the monuments, but rather tearing them down. It's moreover certain that officials would do nothing. I also recommend graffiti and the employ of paint to make the presence of a clean confederate a financial liability.
Now the organization for this endeavor is really simple as it only requires a small group-- 'a cell', as it were. With rope and lasso, eight is sufficient for the pull-down. Four more are needed for lookout, using flashlight signaling.
It must be in the early AM in complete silence. All must go to the destination by separate paths. As timing is essential, do a dry-run to coordinate the walking times. And don't forget the paint to desecrate the text!
Voila, a recipe for action. Had we done it, there would be no fascists looking for violence. Rather, only a crowd of white trash gazing upon a urine-soaked, fallen icon.
So we need to ask ourselves if it would not be far better to ignore the fascists, whose entire m/o, like that of petulant children, is to demand attention. Direct confrontation is what these people live for; it's best to hold back on the idealist impulse in favor of a more indirect approach. The fight against fascism is far too important to be left to the idealists.
I advocate Civil Disobedience; angry students should not be protesting the monuments, but rather tearing them down. It's moreover certain that officials would do nothing. I also recommend graffiti and the employ of paint to make the presence of a clean confederate a financial liability.
Now the organization for this endeavor is really simple as it only requires a small group-- 'a cell', as it were. With rope and lasso, eight is sufficient for the pull-down. Four more are needed for lookout, using flashlight signaling.
It must be in the early AM in complete silence. All must go to the destination by separate paths. As timing is essential, do a dry-run to coordinate the walking times. And don't forget the paint to desecrate the text!
Voila, a recipe for action. Had we done it, there would be no fascists looking for violence. Rather, only a crowd of white trash gazing upon a urine-soaked, fallen icon.
3
Another reason these monuments must fall: They are symbols of a secessionist, racist white state which I could now seriously imagine as possible. In other words, the segregationist south with a civil redux, 21st century.
4
Let's put this into a perspective. I don't think you'll see many monuments and statues around Germany celebrating their "Nazi Heritage". Charlottesville put the similarity between the KKK and neo-Nazis clearly front and center - those Confederate battle flags represent traitors carrying out treasonous acts, the statues serve as a reminder of pride in that war against our USA. I still remember in the 60's at a resort in Lake Geneva, two students from TN and KY who had a cigarette lighter that played Dixie. They forced us to stand at attention every time that damned lighter was turned on. IT galled me than and I have never forgotten the symbolism and its odious nature.
The Confederacy lost the war 150 years ago - these monuments are nothing more than participation trophies for losers.
The Confederacy lost the war 150 years ago - these monuments are nothing more than participation trophies for losers.
7
There are very painful works of art that as a nation we must deal with, consider Billie Holiday’s Strange Fruit https://youtu.be/h4ZyuULy9zs or Nina Simone’s Mississippi Goddam https://youtu.be/hBiAtwQZnHs . Both were recorded before I was born and both informed me some 25-35 years after they were made. The former is still chilling and the latter is still tragically timely.
I learned about the holocaust in art, literature, and films (30-40 years after the events), because so many animated the call to “Never Forget”. I have never forgotten and when I encountered the slogan of the Jewish Defense League (JDL), “Never Again” I was drawn to learn more. When I learned about the JDL, I saw them for what they were (SPLC JDL: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/jewish-def... ) because I KNEW better. What if all had been eradicated, so that I could not learn the truth, except for the JDLs rhetoric? Let alone modern-day deniers.
The danger of the government removing Confederate works of art on display in public places, devoiding our society of these monuments to our dark, divided and painful past, almost certainly ensures that future generations will not be informed by them and not know better when the time comes.
Eradicating tragic mistakes of our past is the wrong way to heal from them; worse, we drop our guard in repeating them. How about volunteer docents by each objectionable monument to help inform, instead of a mob simply destroying them?
I learned about the holocaust in art, literature, and films (30-40 years after the events), because so many animated the call to “Never Forget”. I have never forgotten and when I encountered the slogan of the Jewish Defense League (JDL), “Never Again” I was drawn to learn more. When I learned about the JDL, I saw them for what they were (SPLC JDL: https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/jewish-def... ) because I KNEW better. What if all had been eradicated, so that I could not learn the truth, except for the JDLs rhetoric? Let alone modern-day deniers.
The danger of the government removing Confederate works of art on display in public places, devoiding our society of these monuments to our dark, divided and painful past, almost certainly ensures that future generations will not be informed by them and not know better when the time comes.
Eradicating tragic mistakes of our past is the wrong way to heal from them; worse, we drop our guard in repeating them. How about volunteer docents by each objectionable monument to help inform, instead of a mob simply destroying them?
5
"Today, the battle for white male supremacy has expanded in scope. It is nativist, anti-feminist and anti-Semitic. It is also homophobic. As always, it is racist. And it has fully embraced the imagery of Nazism, from Adolph Hitler to swastika flags to the Nazi salute."
"The imagery of Nazism"does not include statues of Adolph Hitler.
There are no statues to Hitler, either in America or in Europe.
Not one.
The man who engineered the slaughter of untold millions, worldwide, has no statue of him, his jackboots, the Brown Shirts and the Black Shirts.
Hitler has to use a stand-ins: Beauregard, Benning, Bragg, Gordon, Hill, Hood, Lee, Pickett, Polk, Rucker.... to name a few.... and they did name a few.
That list of white males is the list of treasonous military men who led the Civil War. It is also the list of names of U.S. military bases in the south that were re-named to celebrate the Confederate "heritage".... no, not after the fall of the south but in the 40's and 50's, just about the time that everyone was getting back from fighting Hitler and the Nazis and looking at our country with fresh eyes and asking, "What is it with this Jim Crow garbage? I just spent 3 years of my life fighting this racism, sexism, patriarchal baloney, now I get home and here it is!"
Those statues and re-named bases are new. They are within my life.
There is no "heritage".
And there are no statues to Hitler, anywhere.
He has to use stand-ins: Lee and all the other traitors.
Re-name our bases!
"The imagery of Nazism"does not include statues of Adolph Hitler.
There are no statues to Hitler, either in America or in Europe.
Not one.
The man who engineered the slaughter of untold millions, worldwide, has no statue of him, his jackboots, the Brown Shirts and the Black Shirts.
Hitler has to use a stand-ins: Beauregard, Benning, Bragg, Gordon, Hill, Hood, Lee, Pickett, Polk, Rucker.... to name a few.... and they did name a few.
That list of white males is the list of treasonous military men who led the Civil War. It is also the list of names of U.S. military bases in the south that were re-named to celebrate the Confederate "heritage".... no, not after the fall of the south but in the 40's and 50's, just about the time that everyone was getting back from fighting Hitler and the Nazis and looking at our country with fresh eyes and asking, "What is it with this Jim Crow garbage? I just spent 3 years of my life fighting this racism, sexism, patriarchal baloney, now I get home and here it is!"
Those statues and re-named bases are new. They are within my life.
There is no "heritage".
And there are no statues to Hitler, anywhere.
He has to use stand-ins: Lee and all the other traitors.
Re-name our bases!
6
What to do with all the confederate statuary? Here's a modest proposal. [It is based on my conviction that currently these men are occupying a special place in hell.]
First, get them off their high horses. Then stick them into individual cubicles in a new museum in Washington, DC. These living spaces would look like the quarters in which the slaves used to be kept.
Before exhibiting, the statues will be adorned with neck chains and leg shackles as well.
First, get them off their high horses. Then stick them into individual cubicles in a new museum in Washington, DC. These living spaces would look like the quarters in which the slaves used to be kept.
Before exhibiting, the statues will be adorned with neck chains and leg shackles as well.
8
Looking forward to the day when some of these activists try to rappel down Washington's face at Mount Rushmore and blow off his nose. These dirt bags are sounding more and more like the Taliban. Vandalism is vandalism. If they want to be patient and use democracy, fine. But these people are no different than the thugs that burn down their own community after a perceived wrong doing. Put them in jail.
2
It's time to lynch the statues of the people who lynched people. All of them. Right now.
5
Trump has defended statues of Confederate generals. He has equated them with statues of George Washington and Thomas Jefferson.
Washington and Jefferson, for all their faults, initiated one of the most significant political experiments in history. It's called America.
In contrast, the Confederate generals we're talking about fought to lock in place human slavery, with all its attendant misery.
Motivating and guiding one group were ideals of universal, God-given freedoms and legal equality.
Motivating and guiding the other group were ideals of inherited privilege, economic exploitation, inequality under the law, and unconstrained domination.
Robert E. Lee was an immensely talented general. His men adored him. One Sunday morning in Richmond, VA when he took communion, kneeling -- conspicuously -- beside a black man. That might have been his greatest act.
A statue of him erected for the purpose of glorifying the Confederacy is, actually, a disgrace.
Washington and Jefferson, for all their faults, initiated one of the most significant political experiments in history. It's called America.
In contrast, the Confederate generals we're talking about fought to lock in place human slavery, with all its attendant misery.
Motivating and guiding one group were ideals of universal, God-given freedoms and legal equality.
Motivating and guiding the other group were ideals of inherited privilege, economic exploitation, inequality under the law, and unconstrained domination.
Robert E. Lee was an immensely talented general. His men adored him. One Sunday morning in Richmond, VA when he took communion, kneeling -- conspicuously -- beside a black man. That might have been his greatest act.
A statue of him erected for the purpose of glorifying the Confederacy is, actually, a disgrace.
3
"White supremacists aren’t the only defenders of these monuments. President Trump on Tuesday criticized efforts to take them down." This sentence is incorrect. It should read: "White supremacists, including ResidenT Rump, criticized effort to take them down."
3
The entire South was complicit in the Civil War. Best to rid ourselves of that as well. We can't just keep the things that are of material value and disregard the ones that don't have any for us. That would reveal what our true shallow priorities are. Our footsteps do not change regardless of thoroughly we scrub and scrub them off the floor.
Not being a racist, I looked upon the statues on Monument Boulevard in Richmond for their historical value and not as symbols of racism. There also is a monument to tennis champion Arthur Ashe at the end of the boulevard. As was pointed out in another comment, Robert E Lee joined the Confederacy, because he favored slavery but because his state - Virginia - seceded from the Union. At this time, one had closed loyalty to ones state rather than the Union. It is wrong for white supremacists to claim Lee as one of their own. It always seemed to that the Stars and Bars were more of a racist symbol than statues.
A lot of Confederate monuments probably should be pulled down but it seems to me that there is a rush to do so. Perhaps some of these monuments, like the ones on Monument Boulevard should remain for their historical value instead of trying to erase all traces Robert E Lee and his lieutenants.
A lot of Confederate monuments probably should be pulled down but it seems to me that there is a rush to do so. Perhaps some of these monuments, like the ones on Monument Boulevard should remain for their historical value instead of trying to erase all traces Robert E Lee and his lieutenants.
4
Washington admonished generals to "wipe out the Mohawks", likening them to lice, he owned slaves. Jefferson owned slaves and exhorted the red man to not resist, to die if he does resist. The myth of the Founding Fathers,that they were neoliberal, liberal in every way imaginable , is simply that, a myth. The myth of the Civil War is that it was fought over slavery, the whites of Northern cities rioted , lynched police and blacks , in protest of the draft.
The Founding Fathers were racist, bigoted,tear down their statues, give the Indians more land, more money.The original sin of America isnt slavery, its genocide and land theft. Liberals love slavery because its much easier to feel justified, just cop an attitude. Genocide and land theft reparitions ?
The Founding Fathers were racist, bigoted,tear down their statues, give the Indians more land, more money.The original sin of America isnt slavery, its genocide and land theft. Liberals love slavery because its much easier to feel justified, just cop an attitude. Genocide and land theft reparitions ?
2
This is not only about the institution of slavery, this is also about a treasonous south....and 'why' do we honor separatists with statues? The south is way past due time to get over the Civil War.
it's time to step back and take a deep breath and put these southern monuments in perspective. and perhaps place them in private places so people so inclined can visit them. but what about the slave owner Thomas Jefferson? and even Lincoln, who proposed sending the blacks "back to Africa"? should we carve that into his Memorial in DC? no one in our past (an likely even our present) is without sin when it comes to race relations. let's give each other some respect and calm down... disrespecting the heritage of fellow citizens by tearing down a statue and then kicking and spitting on it is a reach too far. there are other solutions that we can arrive at thru peaceful dialogue, as per Mayor Landreiu in New Orleans.
1
The side that sneers about progressives and college students being weak "snowflakes" in need of a "safe space" is having a meltdown over possibly losing their participation trophies.
2
Lee, Jackson et al as West Point graduates took an oath to protect and defend the American constitution.
There are no provisions in the Constitution for a state to secede from the Republic.
Lee, Jackson et al renounced their oath.
They took up arms and were in a state of rebellion which was punishable by death.
Lee stood at the s/foot of the scaffold when John Brown was hanged for rebellion at Harper's Ferry.
In his private diary Lee acknowledged his rebellion against the United States government.
Lee and the other confederate generals killed American soldiers. They murdered Black United States soldiers.
That neonazis would take a name of German ideology that killed American soldiers in World War 2 is beyond comprehension.
We would not allow Germany to erect statues to Hitler or Japan to Tojo and Yamamoto who planned the attack on Pearl Harbor.
This is not about slavery when the statues of Lee and Jackson are torn down.
It is an abomination that a Black soldier, sailor, marine or airman would have to go onto Fort Lee or Fort Hood when those monsters murdered their ancestors is incomprehensible.
Those Forts named after confederate generals should be named after those who defended the American republic and not those who wage war against it.
The names of those Forts should be Fort Abraham Lincoln, Fort Grant, Fort Sherman, Fort Chamberlain and so forth.
Don't let the idiot president mangle American history with the same audacity that he mangles the truth.
There are no provisions in the Constitution for a state to secede from the Republic.
Lee, Jackson et al renounced their oath.
They took up arms and were in a state of rebellion which was punishable by death.
Lee stood at the s/foot of the scaffold when John Brown was hanged for rebellion at Harper's Ferry.
In his private diary Lee acknowledged his rebellion against the United States government.
Lee and the other confederate generals killed American soldiers. They murdered Black United States soldiers.
That neonazis would take a name of German ideology that killed American soldiers in World War 2 is beyond comprehension.
We would not allow Germany to erect statues to Hitler or Japan to Tojo and Yamamoto who planned the attack on Pearl Harbor.
This is not about slavery when the statues of Lee and Jackson are torn down.
It is an abomination that a Black soldier, sailor, marine or airman would have to go onto Fort Lee or Fort Hood when those monsters murdered their ancestors is incomprehensible.
Those Forts named after confederate generals should be named after those who defended the American republic and not those who wage war against it.
The names of those Forts should be Fort Abraham Lincoln, Fort Grant, Fort Sherman, Fort Chamberlain and so forth.
Don't let the idiot president mangle American history with the same audacity that he mangles the truth.
3
I could not agree more. There is no more place in the USA for a statue of a Lee or a Jeff Davis than there is for a statue of Benedict Arnold. These men betrayed and made war upon their country. Like the Nazis, they murdered POWs who were soldiers of the US Army. I cannot for the life of me understand how a person can wave the flags of two evil enemy regimes, Nazi Germany and the Confederacy, and then call himself an American patriot.
A life has been lost, and our country, enabled by our fatuous president, has been thrown into turmoil.
Over statues?
The cost is too great.
If Germany can permit the concentration camps to stand, we can endure reminders of confederate stupidity.
Over statues?
The cost is too great.
If Germany can permit the concentration camps to stand, we can endure reminders of confederate stupidity.
It may have been stupid, but it was actually Treason. Look up the definition of treason.................
I agree, but frenzied Alt-Left activists throwing nooses the necks of statues and pulling them down and then dancing on them is not the right way to do it and will only further the divisions.
5
Yes, it's always up to 'The Leftists' to be the ones who be respectful, or kind. Rightwingers can carry on with insults (such as 'Jew will not replace us') but, gosh darn...those with the 'alt left' (non existent, btw) shouldn't allow themselves to be angered by the sickening display from NeoNazis, they shouldn't 'further divisions'.
Sorry, but enough is enough.
Sorry, but enough is enough.
I heard a good suggestion on television yesterday: Let southern heritage honor its writers, storytellers, musicians, and chefs. Generals who fought for the confederate states can retire to history museums.
1
Fifteen years ago a friend noted that all of the men theses statues been dedicated to should have been hung for treason. Had it happened the nation would have healed faster.
The vast majority were erected to continue the treasonous behavior of subjugating people of color and keeping them in their place by denying them their civil rights. That is your southern heritage along with murder of civil rights workers and bombing churches.
Melt them down. The foolishness about defending a southern heritage that includes slavery, tearing families apart at slave auctions, and lynching should be long gone and left in the dustbin of history.
The vast majority were erected to continue the treasonous behavior of subjugating people of color and keeping them in their place by denying them their civil rights. That is your southern heritage along with murder of civil rights workers and bombing churches.
Melt them down. The foolishness about defending a southern heritage that includes slavery, tearing families apart at slave auctions, and lynching should be long gone and left in the dustbin of history.
4
Let us be very careful as to how far we go with the Confederate cleansing. If we nitpick, we can overdo it very quickly. Get rid of the statues but be careful thereafter.
2
In addition to taking down these monuments to racism, we should rename the 10 army and guard bases, named after confederate heroes. Shouldn't those bases honor the generals, President, and others who fought against slavery instead of those who fought for it? Ft. Lee could become Ft. Grant. Ft. Bragg could become Ft. Douglass etc. Just as Germany recognized and institutionalized the evil of Nazism and Hitler, the South needs to recognize and institutionalize the evil war it fought to keep millions of humans enslaved.
2
I second this motion. Naming a US Army fort after Gen Braxton Bragg, whose soldiers murdered hundreds of US Army POWs at the Fort Pillow massacre, is like naming a US Army base after Heinrich Himmler.
lee was a traitor period.
3
Why do we celebrate traitors to America?
4
These are monuments to sedition and losers. For a Republican Party who denigrates "Participation trophies" they sure love them some Loser Trophies here. No other country would allow memorials to treason, America shouldn't either.
4
Do you think that Germany has monuments of Hitler "to remember or to teach us the hard lessons of the past" ?? Come on...
4
"Why Confederate Monuments Must Fall"
And the NYTimes "Timesslpains' - again.
Thanks loads.
And the NYTimes "Timesslpains' - again.
Thanks loads.
2
Oh, so now we have found the fine distinction, lost on most normal people, that elevates Washington to hero while at the same time condemning Confederate leaders as scum. But Washington "owned" slaves, as did Jefferson. I fail to see why they escape opprobrium while others are demonized. Washington and Jefferson, among many other venerated Founders, both practiced, for decades, the very vile thing that Confederate states fought to preserve.
On the subject of the South being treasonous, let me point out a fact obvious to everyone, but deliberately hidden and not acknowledged by the leftist group think cabal and arbiter of what is true: the American Revolution was treason.
Slavery aside, why did the colonies have the right to secede from Britain but the Southern states didn’t have the right to secede from the (then still young) United States?
On the subject of the South being treasonous, let me point out a fact obvious to everyone, but deliberately hidden and not acknowledged by the leftist group think cabal and arbiter of what is true: the American Revolution was treason.
Slavery aside, why did the colonies have the right to secede from Britain but the Southern states didn’t have the right to secede from the (then still young) United States?
3
It's a pretty simple difference between the founding fathers and the southern generals, one group won. That's what gave them the right to start a new country. And there definitely is a difference between owning slaves which was common practice at the time in the late 1770s, and fighting a war in order to keep slavery around almost a hundred years later when most of the world had already outlawed the slave trade.
2
I agree; let's tear down all these statues. Moreover, let the South secede from the Union and make Trump their president.
Robert E. Lee made a clear choice to fight against the preservation of the union, and fought for a new nation whose wealth was built on slavery, which would be allowed to flourish unfettered. No doubt thanks to his talent, the war ended up being the bloodiest in American history.
1
The author is wrong. We cannot change our history by taking down monuments and wishing that it were different than it is. Indeed, a well known historian was interviewed recently on Newshour on PBS who pointed out that the majority of monuments were erected during a period of time, I believe it was 1890-1920, when the soldiers who fought were dying out. It was more of an effort to commemorate them than is assumed today. The most frightening thing about this argument is that for the first time ever, I heard Trump say something that I endorse. Are we going to start taking down George Washington monuments? Those featuring Thomas Jefferson? What about those who signed our Constitution which said that a slave was only 3/5's of a man? Should we take down monuments to Lincoln who famously said, succinctly characterized by me, that he wanted to save the Union and he didn't give a tinker's damn about slavery. Lincoln in a reply to Horace Greeley's message stated: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union." Shall we tear down the Lincoln Memorial in Washington?
How many monuments in America are erected to the slaves of the Confederacy in the South?
9
There is a statue entitled "Jerry Rescue" in Syracuse, New York that memorializes the rescue of a African-American escaped from enslavement and liberated via the Underground Railroad.
1
Thank you.
I am confused. Since when does a statute to a traitor to the United States, an officer or soldier of the Confederacy, a war, begun by the south, and which cost more lives than our other wars, equate with honoring European Heritage? Ironically, they cite Plato, Aristotle and so on as the epitome of this heritage, but I guarantee that they would continue to hate and slaughter anyone with Hellenic antecedents as part of the vast world against them. Their ignorance is staggering, as typified by the idiot they helped elect. Lee, Stonewall Jackson and the other 'heroes' were all traitors and fought against the very nation the neo-Nazis and white supremacists are trying to claim as their own. Washington and Jefferson forged a new nation. Big difference. If they must have these statues to traitors, them house them in a dusty museum, with a curator who can explain their role in context.
4
This is virtue signalling at its finest. Carried out by a fascist left and condoned by the media. Erasing our history is the surest way to repeating it.
6
The idea of a fascist left only exists in the squirming brains of the radical right. There is no such thing. It's an oxymoron. Taking down monuments erected in the Jim Crow era to celebrate racism is hardly erasing history. History will still exist and be remembered, particularly what these monuments really represent, as the article's author so plainly states.
Lee was a traitor. Slavery was
abolished and the Union upheld. Lincoln is the hero.
abolished and the Union upheld. Lincoln is the hero.
2
What cultural "heritage" were the self-anointed "militia" who came to Charlottesville from upstate NY with assault rifles and body armor defending? Only white supremacy. It's past time for public spaces to be free of symbols that inspire racism and bigotry.
4
Tear down the Coliseum Burn Rome again. Tear down King Tuts Pyramid recast his golden statue and Throne. Behead all the Alexander the Great statues and those of Cesar. Do not speak in good terms of the Ottoman Empire or any Empire. Let these states and empires from the beginning of time who endorsed and profited from slavery pay reparations to those they enslaved and tear all references to their leaders from all the public squares. Where should it end? Who decides when shall we remove the next offensive symbol. According to this historian whites are the problem why stop with the confederates?
5
This historian makes no such argument that whites are the problem, although your comment suggests that perhaps this a fruitful avenue of inquiry.
Dear Stuart,
Actually she did...
""Today, the battle for white male supremacy has expanded in scope. It is nativist, anti-feminist and anti-Semitic. It is also homophobic."
Actually she did...
""Today, the battle for white male supremacy has expanded in scope. It is nativist, anti-feminist and anti-Semitic. It is also homophobic."
"And it has fully embraced the imagery of Nazism, from Adolf Hitler to swastika flags to the Nazi salute."
This is a good development. It makes hiding their true intentions all that more difficult, if not impossible. No more using phony weasel words to defend themselves and advance their cause. This is now their cause and I hope they all choke on it.
This is a good development. It makes hiding their true intentions all that more difficult, if not impossible. No more using phony weasel words to defend themselves and advance their cause. This is now their cause and I hope they all choke on it.
2
The Confederate statues are like the cysts in the cancer that is Racism. They need to be taken out for America to at least, know that those cysts are not in her body anymore so that the cancer has no chance to metastasize physically and for her to recover. She will have a few dosage of ‘chemotherapy’ and painful episodes before she fully eradicates these cancerous cells…but her successful recovery will depend on how she, and the people who care for her, treat her delicate condition…
Destroying public and private property in the name of I am better? Hypocrites.
3
#45 will continue his false equivalencies until enough people call him out on it. While some antifa demonstrators were armed, vast numbers of Nazi-activists were armed and armored. I am curious what the actual numbers were on each side. Bad reporting NYT, numbers matter to us in the real world.
1
Hmm. Let's see. A statue of Confederate General Joseph E. Johnston went up in Bentonville, NC on . . . March 20, 2010. Whither white supremacy? Jim Crow? Lynchings?
After the war, Gen. Johnston was a U.S. Congressman and a member of Pres. Cleveland's cabinet. Hardly the narrative of treason and slavery advocate portrayed by Ms. Cox in her blinkered viewpoint.
After the war, Gen. Johnston was a U.S. Congressman and a member of Pres. Cleveland's cabinet. Hardly the narrative of treason and slavery advocate portrayed by Ms. Cox in her blinkered viewpoint.
4
China paid for a statue of Marx to be put up in his hometown in Germany. I guess the Germans are pretty tolerant.
1
Here in Western North Carolina, in the city of Flat Rock, lies the body of Christopher Memminger (and some family), in the graveyard of St. John in the Wilderness Episcopal Church. A sign memorializes him on the side of the highway: his garve marker is quite large. Memminger was Jefferson Davis' Secretary of the Treasury (and, history records, not a very good one). There are other members of the Confederacy buried in the same cemetary.
If we're going to purge all monuments to those who participated in the Civil War, where do we stop, or, even, do we? Should we pull Memminger's highway sign? Pack up his grave monument? There are literally thousands of Memmingers, if I may, out there. Like it or not (and I don't), some very ugly history happened and we don't dare make saints out of those who were responsible---but---addressing this is a larger larger issue than melting down a few statues. A fuller, honest, understanding of our history, and the terrible legacy its left, is needed--above all, for the young people of this age.
If we're going to purge all monuments to those who participated in the Civil War, where do we stop, or, even, do we? Should we pull Memminger's highway sign? Pack up his grave monument? There are literally thousands of Memmingers, if I may, out there. Like it or not (and I don't), some very ugly history happened and we don't dare make saints out of those who were responsible---but---addressing this is a larger larger issue than melting down a few statues. A fuller, honest, understanding of our history, and the terrible legacy its left, is needed--above all, for the young people of this age.
2
A church cemetery is not a public place or public honorarium.
When they burn your brother down
In the name of Freedon
I don't care if that's left or right
It's wrong
If that's all they can do
Then you don't need 'em
-Kris Kristofferson (Wild American)
In the name of Freedon
I don't care if that's left or right
It's wrong
If that's all they can do
Then you don't need 'em
-Kris Kristofferson (Wild American)
3
It's the Lost Cause for a reason. The Confederacy lost. The alt-right are the real snowflakes. All rebel statues should be taken down now. Hopefully the outrage over the tragedy in Charlottesville, and Trump's bizarre support of bigotry and hatred, will hasten the removal of tributes to the eras of slavery and Jim Crow. Good riddance.
1
Most Confederate soldiers were farmers who did not own slaves. They were drafted into the Army if they did not enlist. Those who did not enlist were vilified by politicians and plantation owners who became officers and raised their own regiments. The South was economically and socially destroyed during the war, and the population suffered retribution for at least the next 50 years. Remove the public statutes of the politicians and generals that certain groups find so offensive. But, will Confederate cemeteries and grave markers be the next target? When the Nazis occupied France, they did not destroy cemeteries or monuments to the Americans and British who died in WWI.
5
"Today, the battle for white male supremacy has expanded in scope. It is nativist, anti-feminist and anti-Semitic. It is also homophobic."
This is so pathetic that I have no words.
This is so pathetic that I have no words.
4
If we need reminders of our dark history, as some scholars suggest, then put up monuments to the millions of broken, beaten destroyed bodies and lives of slaves, monuments to those who were lynched, monuments that reflect solemnly on the blood that was spilled to make America. Germany has monuments to its Nazi past, but they don't consist of lionizing statues of Adolph Hitler. What an absurd line of thinking.
6
Mr. Trump: Tear down this Wall !!! Unimaginable, right??? Sad.
1
For those who recommend that monuments that glorify the Confederacy should not be removed but properly interpreted and contextualized, I ask, how do you propose to do this? Are you willing, for example, to erect beneath each of these monuments a statue depicting an African American man being brutally whipped, or an African American woman being viciously raped, or a civil rights worker being tortured and killed, or a genteel gathering of white Southerners out on a Sunday afternoon to watch a lynching? I suspect this sort of contextualization is not what advocates of this viewpoint have in mind, but how else could the deep cultural meaning of these monuments be represented?
3
First of all, to all of you who think we should keep these monuments because of their historical value, how would you feel if your ancestors were enslaved, murdered, raped, tortured, etc etc, and everyday in your country you had to see statues honoring the very people who did those things?! And if the south wants to have monuments to their past why are their no statues of brave African Americans that fought against slavery and the Jim Crow era?
1
I am not right wing or left wing....And I hate politics..
But when 'leftist thinkers' start using the self-same tactics as ISIS, dicatators around the globe and revisionists of history everywhere, then it is really time to give up on people who self-righteously claim be exercising some form of 'universal morality' for the world.
Go ahead, get rid of your history please, erase it -
So that you can repeat it again in another generation or two.
But when 'leftist thinkers' start using the self-same tactics as ISIS, dicatators around the globe and revisionists of history everywhere, then it is really time to give up on people who self-righteously claim be exercising some form of 'universal morality' for the world.
Go ahead, get rid of your history please, erase it -
So that you can repeat it again in another generation or two.
5
Remember that monument dedicated to the brave Japanese pilots who bombed Pearl Harbor that used to be right next to the USS Arizona memorial?
Yeah, neither do I...
Yeah, neither do I...
4
The statues are free speech.
2
Robert E. Lee was a traitor who killed patriotic Union soldiers for protecting defenceless people from continued enslavement, torture, rape and murder - plain and simple. Like our current so-called President, he had no honor.
1
I'm expecting that Donald Trump would love to be enshrined in a series of statues as The Father of the Renaissance of American White Supremacy.
Maybe that's what his Wall is really all about.
Maybe that's what his Wall is really all about.
1
This has gone a bit too far.
2
Offer the keepers of all these monuments a choice; You can have your little stone or marble artifact to Confederate ''heritage'' so long as you pay for full reparations.
Your choice.
Your choice.
1
I hate to see historical objects obliterated. It seemed right that these statues should be removed from places of honor and displayed in museum settings where they could help people learn why they should move forward from a divided past.
But it seems that would create shrines to outdated ideas and the diminishment of many of our citizens. Their destruction is loss caused by hatred and small thinking, but appears to be necessary. Like Hitler's ashes, they must be scattered.
But it seems that would create shrines to outdated ideas and the diminishment of many of our citizens. Their destruction is loss caused by hatred and small thinking, but appears to be necessary. Like Hitler's ashes, they must be scattered.
1
These confederate statues are the same as having a memorial statue for a Japanese Kamakasi pilot celebrating the attack on Pearl Harbor. An attack on America is an attack on America.
Here's a question- what monuments DO we want? What values to we want to cast in iron, what heroism do we want to uphold?
We now get to have real conversations about what to put on these empty pedestals.
We now get to have real conversations about what to put on these empty pedestals.
Do we stop performing Wagner--a well-known anti-Semite?
It is a delicate matter to throw the baby out with the bath water--or to throw out a fine equestrian or statue articulating an architectural or urban space without giving thought to its preservation elsewhere with all due labeling about the political and social character of the work (as has been suggested in this comments). Thought might also be given to what might replace the removed (rather than destroyed) works.
Balancing public sensibility and historical preservation cannot be reduced to slogans. A solution should be found that preserves the best of these monuments for both artistic and historical reasons, while finding a way to represent in the public forum our national ideal of both liberty and equality.
It is a delicate matter to throw the baby out with the bath water--or to throw out a fine equestrian or statue articulating an architectural or urban space without giving thought to its preservation elsewhere with all due labeling about the political and social character of the work (as has been suggested in this comments). Thought might also be given to what might replace the removed (rather than destroyed) works.
Balancing public sensibility and historical preservation cannot be reduced to slogans. A solution should be found that preserves the best of these monuments for both artistic and historical reasons, while finding a way to represent in the public forum our national ideal of both liberty and equality.
3
The fact that many of these statues were erected long after the end of the civil war is a sure sign that they were put up to represent the ideal of white supremacy with a knowing wink. These were terrorists who the Supreme Court should have not allowed to be celebrated in anyway because in no way do they show support for our Constitution. We let the South erect these treasonous statues in the name of letting the losing side have a little solace. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. These statues must come out of public places and move into museums. Though my preference is for their destruction, so they won't be worshiped in any manner.
White supremacy is everywhere. Why is everyone silent about black racism? Why? Or Asian racism. Is this not discrimination?
2
Southerners have long been schooled in a series of misconceptions about their own heritage, e.g., the Civil War as The War of Northern Aggression and as more a defense of states rights than slavery, GONE WITH THE WIND as literature and instructive history, the KKK as an understandable response to a supposed Reconstruction era of Negro depredations.
Despite Trumps crucial electoral support from some Rust Belt defectors from Democratic voting, the South is also the wellspring of the 2016 Trump vote.
Although Monuments to Confederate Heroes are rightly considered deplorable. Defenders of broadly liberal American values -- Libertarian as well as Progressive Liberal - should tread carefully. Civil libertarian non-violence is a better idea than helmets. shield and clubs.
Despite Trumps crucial electoral support from some Rust Belt defectors from Democratic voting, the South is also the wellspring of the 2016 Trump vote.
Although Monuments to Confederate Heroes are rightly considered deplorable. Defenders of broadly liberal American values -- Libertarian as well as Progressive Liberal - should tread carefully. Civil libertarian non-violence is a better idea than helmets. shield and clubs.
It is a righteous attitude to move the Confederate monuments, probably.
In contrast, the statues of Korean prostitutes named "Comfort Women" are left in the Glendale city and some other places in US.
The statues are used for the fake propaganda by the Korean activists controlled by North Korea and China in order to prepare future attacks against US and allies.
Why don't you clarify their lies and remove the dirty statues.
In contrast, the statues of Korean prostitutes named "Comfort Women" are left in the Glendale city and some other places in US.
The statues are used for the fake propaganda by the Korean activists controlled by North Korea and China in order to prepare future attacks against US and allies.
Why don't you clarify their lies and remove the dirty statues.
Taking down monuments will not erase history and the thoughts of people that erected them. Looking at the European history and its periods of destroying monuments/busts/paintings of the whatever 'other side' tells us that it is the 'righteous destroyers' who needs to be questioned, not the monument. The United States seems to be a place where political discussions center more and more around symbolic acts. Erasing all monuments of questionable origin erases a part of the history of the United States. Here we go: let's demand the destruction of all memories of the USA landing a man on the moon as Wernher von Braun, a Nazi and SS officer, built the Saturn V rocket for the USA.
2
I am really getting sick and tired of hearing about momuments and statues being removed,taken down or moved.The only reason this is happening is because a group of ignorant people decide they have nothing better to do than start riots and violence over what is supposed to be representations of our history.Our American history.It's not these statues,momuments and yes,even flags that are causing these groups of ignorant people to have hate,it's the people themselves that have the problem. Oh,by the way,speaking of history,when we had the first Afro-American as POTUS,were there any cries to remove or destroy any momuments,statues or flags? Think about it.
4
History and heritage? Edu Bayer's photo of the statue of Lee in Charlottesville surrounded by racists with torches shows what these monuments are about and who they are for.
The problem is not with historical monuments but with the ignorance or perversion of history. Slavery happened. The Civil War happened. Nazism and the Holocaust happened. Taking down the statues won't change these facts but it will make it easier for the ignorant to forget and for the malicious to whitewash. I was in Berlin recently, which has more monuments of World War 2 than any other city I know. These are not monuments to the perpetrators but to the victims, yet they are not afraid to show swastikas, Nazi flags, faces of Hitler and Himmler. They are trying to put the atrocities in their historical context and to explain why good people participated in evil actions. The US should do the same. Put plaques next to the statues or remove them to museums. Better still, announce a contest for artists and historians to come up with creative solutions to commemorate the victims of slavery alongside its defenders. Why does Germany have the Museum of the Holocaust but Mississippi and Alabama don't have museums of slavery?
2
Let us do what they did in Durham to the rest of these disgusting monuments to the losers of the Civil War..
Whites should tear down these statues and stand with blacks. We need to show our black brothers and sisters that we believe in them! That we love them. That we understand that every time they see a statue of someone like Lee they are forced to remember that they were once slaves and that today their old masters still hold sway over their lives.
Us whites need to prove that we arent just paying lip service to equality, that our love for them doesnt stop at the facebook post.
Whites, stand with your brothers and sisters and tear down these racist monuments! Now is the time to prove that we will not be divided by the monsters of the past.
Whites should tear down these statues and stand with blacks. We need to show our black brothers and sisters that we believe in them! That we love them. That we understand that every time they see a statue of someone like Lee they are forced to remember that they were once slaves and that today their old masters still hold sway over their lives.
Us whites need to prove that we arent just paying lip service to equality, that our love for them doesnt stop at the facebook post.
Whites, stand with your brothers and sisters and tear down these racist monuments! Now is the time to prove that we will not be divided by the monsters of the past.
1
The Confederate cause was treasonous
Confederate monuments were erected in the cause of white supremacy
That's why they need to be removed. The only fitting place for them is in a museum that explains them in that historic context.
Confederate monuments were erected in the cause of white supremacy
That's why they need to be removed. The only fitting place for them is in a museum that explains them in that historic context.
The Confederate Monument at Arlington National Cemetery should be tossed into the Potomac. It's disgusting. Arlington should be for patriots who gave their lives in defense of all that we stand for. No place there for traitors and slavers.
1
"The Confederate leaders and generals are part of our history" is one of the refrains. Or let’s make it about that they owned slaves, as did some of the founding fathers. No, they left the country and then started a war against the United States of America at Fort Sumter where we were their enemy.
If fighting against the United States and killing our people is a qualifier for a statue or monument to their place in our history I ask then were are the statues and monuments to King George, Adolf Hitler, Musslini, Emperor Hirohito, or more recently Ho Chi Minh, Ayatollah Khomeini, or Osama Ben Ladin?
Where are the public statues to the great military heroes Heinrich Himmler, Erwin Rommel, Hermann Göring, Hideki Tojo, Osami Nagano, or Isoroku Yamamoto in our parks and government facilities? All leaders and generals of enemies of those who fought wars against the United States? Is it that they weren’t American’s first? I am not sure which is worse an outsider enemy or a traitorous enemy.
We have memorials to the victims. We don’t erect statues to the Boston Marathon bombers, the 9/11 terrorists, or Timothy McVeigh. All a part of our history of being attacked for our American values of freedom.
If fighting against the United States and killing our people is a qualifier for a statue or monument to their place in our history I ask then were are the statues and monuments to King George, Adolf Hitler, Musslini, Emperor Hirohito, or more recently Ho Chi Minh, Ayatollah Khomeini, or Osama Ben Ladin?
Where are the public statues to the great military heroes Heinrich Himmler, Erwin Rommel, Hermann Göring, Hideki Tojo, Osami Nagano, or Isoroku Yamamoto in our parks and government facilities? All leaders and generals of enemies of those who fought wars against the United States? Is it that they weren’t American’s first? I am not sure which is worse an outsider enemy or a traitorous enemy.
We have memorials to the victims. We don’t erect statues to the Boston Marathon bombers, the 9/11 terrorists, or Timothy McVeigh. All a part of our history of being attacked for our American values of freedom.
1
Spot on.
If the truly were a question of heritage, tell me where to find the statues of a slave owners' son raping a slave's daughter? Of the whippings? Of the slave auctions? Of the lynchings? Of the KKK?
Lest we forget.
If the truly were a question of heritage, tell me where to find the statues of a slave owners' son raping a slave's daughter? Of the whippings? Of the slave auctions? Of the lynchings? Of the KKK?
Lest we forget.
1
How best to remove the massive bas relief of Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, and Stonewall Jackson, carved into the side of Stone Mountain, Georgia?
Take down the statues, remove the street signs and school names honoring the "hero" generals, ban the Confederate flag waving and do not authorize park protests by the alt right. Germany was forced to learn these lessons after WWII. You would be hard pressed to see Hitler monuments or nazi flags anywhere in the country. The Civil War is long over: let's try to live peacefully together.
They [Confederate monuments] aren’t about heritage or history. They are tools of white supremacy.
But white supremacy IS the history, and heritage, of the United States!! that's the entire problem!!
But white supremacy IS the history, and heritage, of the United States!! that's the entire problem!!
The Civil War has been over for 152 years and nobody objected about the erection of these statues until now. The notion that these statutes inspire present day racism and white supremacy today is a twisted idea driven by a dazzling display of political correctness by the super-sensitive. I am white, male and embrace diversity in our society - and I know a little something about history. Slavery was an evil practiced world-wide (and is still practiced today) but is an historical fact. It was eliminated at the end of the Civil War although Jim Crow didn't exhaust itself until the end of the 1960's. Tearing down these statues is an act of emotional weakness. Lee and Jackson were not evil men and comparing them to Hitler or Stalin is ridiculous. And calling them “terrorists” is a mean-spirited use of a phrase that happens to be in vogue today. The moral issue around slavery was changing at the time and while the Union victory did not eliminate discrimination, the evil of slavery was eradicated. This tearing down of statues has nothing positive about it but it a denial of history and will simply stoke the passions of white supremacists and give them an excuse to march. Why stop now? You might as well hang people in Texas and California who advocate secession.
4
The statue of Lee should be replaced with a statue of Heather Heyer, the young woman murdered by a nazi.
Lee was responsible for the death of thousands in a disastrous effort to keep millions of slaves in chains. He was no hero.
Ms. Heyer was a non-violent, unarmed innocent standing up to bullies, killed by a fool egged on by trump's incendiary rhetoric. She's the hero.
Lee was responsible for the death of thousands in a disastrous effort to keep millions of slaves in chains. He was no hero.
Ms. Heyer was a non-violent, unarmed innocent standing up to bullies, killed by a fool egged on by trump's incendiary rhetoric. She's the hero.
2
Monuments aside.
There are 10 United States military bases named after enemy Confederate officers. (Fort Benning, Camp Beauregard, Fort Bragg, Fort Gordon, Fort A.P. Hill, Fort Hood, Fort Lee, Fort Pickett, Fort Polk and Fort Rucker)
These USA military bases may as well be named Fort Hussein or Fort Ho Chi Minh or Fort Tojo. Why would we have our military bases named after the enemies of the UNITED States of America. And these Confederate Generals are not only enemies of the United States of America, they are traitors. (Fortunately, we do not have a Fort Benedict Arnold. Still waiting for that Broadway musical.)
I am requesting any member of the US Congress to have the courage to write legislation to change the names of our American military bases that are named in honor of an enemy of the United States of America.
There are 10 United States military bases named after enemy Confederate officers. (Fort Benning, Camp Beauregard, Fort Bragg, Fort Gordon, Fort A.P. Hill, Fort Hood, Fort Lee, Fort Pickett, Fort Polk and Fort Rucker)
These USA military bases may as well be named Fort Hussein or Fort Ho Chi Minh or Fort Tojo. Why would we have our military bases named after the enemies of the UNITED States of America. And these Confederate Generals are not only enemies of the United States of America, they are traitors. (Fortunately, we do not have a Fort Benedict Arnold. Still waiting for that Broadway musical.)
I am requesting any member of the US Congress to have the courage to write legislation to change the names of our American military bases that are named in honor of an enemy of the United States of America.
2
Did Americans become ISIS or Taliban?
2
The Taliban also destroyed statues for this eact reason.
3
It's not only Confederate monuments but racist attitudes past and present that clashed in Charlottesville Saturday. Nazi sympathizers and heavily armed local militiamen defiantly and menacingly displaying their determination to bear arms forced local authorities to retreat, if not cower, in the face of their violence and anger.
White pride and a cherished heritage was why the white supremacists took to the streets at UVA. Their planned, organized assault at Charlottesville had nothing to do with the Robert E. Lee statue but to reassert their sense of lost privilege.
The president, during his campaign last year, incited these mobs to riot and take their country back. And Saturday, the president officially signed off on white supremacist violence and forfeited any claim to moral and responsible presidential leadership.
White pride and a cherished heritage was why the white supremacists took to the streets at UVA. Their planned, organized assault at Charlottesville had nothing to do with the Robert E. Lee statue but to reassert their sense of lost privilege.
The president, during his campaign last year, incited these mobs to riot and take their country back. And Saturday, the president officially signed off on white supremacist violence and forfeited any claim to moral and responsible presidential leadership.
3
Confederate monuments, by their symbolic power, contribute directly, here and now, to the entirely realistic fear that African-Americans have for themselves and their children that they will be targeted for violence or death because of their appearance. All other quibbles seem quaintly, or rather perversely, blind to this reality. Maybe it's OK to leave up the ones at Gettysburg and other battlefields since these are intentionally preserved landscapes of the past, I don't know, but the ones that celebrate and honor the "Lost Cause" in the very centers of towns and cities through the south constitute effective symbolic acts of aggression against people of African ancestry every moment they remain in place. Not to recognize this is moral blindness.
As a guest on PBS Newshour pointed out last night, there is a decisive difference between statues of Washington, Jefferson, and other Founding Fathers who owned slaves, and the Confederate monuments. The first group established this country and its ideals, however imperfectly realized these may be, the second sought to destroy it. Not to recognize this is also moral blindness.
As a guest on PBS Newshour pointed out last night, there is a decisive difference between statues of Washington, Jefferson, and other Founding Fathers who owned slaves, and the Confederate monuments. The first group established this country and its ideals, however imperfectly realized these may be, the second sought to destroy it. Not to recognize this is also moral blindness.
6
In years past, mob rule led to dragging people out of prison, and killing them despite all laws to the contrary. What the mob wants, they must have.
In Durham, we're returning to mob rule. The police stood aside as the mob acted, not by law, but by their own desires.
It looked like something out of Iraq.
Has the respect for law sunk that low in America?
In Durham, we're returning to mob rule. The police stood aside as the mob acted, not by law, but by their own desires.
It looked like something out of Iraq.
Has the respect for law sunk that low in America?
8
The answer is yes. And as always, it starts at the top.
I thought that displaying statues of certain people is meant to commemorate and glorify those people, not simply to show "history". As far as I know, there is no public place in our country that has statues of the terrorists that flew planes into the World Trade Center on September 11th. There are no public parks with statues of the Oklahoma City bombers. I don't think New York City is going to erect a statue to Son of Sam.
Robert E. Lee may or may not have held certain views of slavery, but he certainly was a person who tried to destroy our country. He backed up his views with violence and death. Why should we glorify him?
Robert E. Lee may or may not have held certain views of slavery, but he certainly was a person who tried to destroy our country. He backed up his views with violence and death. Why should we glorify him?
6
We have a holocaust museum. And we have one devoted to African Americans. But I am unaware of one specifically devoted to slavery. Maybe that would be a good idea. And put those statues there.
Slavery is based on laziness. Better to force someone else to do the hard work so the owner can sit in the shade sipping mint juleps.
In Coventry England the ruins of the bombed out cathedral remain with a sign saying "Lest we forget". Well, we should never forget the evils of slavery.
Slavery is based on laziness. Better to force someone else to do the hard work so the owner can sit in the shade sipping mint juleps.
In Coventry England the ruins of the bombed out cathedral remain with a sign saying "Lest we forget". Well, we should never forget the evils of slavery.
2
I saw the Mayor of Baltimore on tv today and she stated that 4 confederate statues removed from Baltimore. Maryland was in the union during the Civil War. why would they have statues honoring those who wanted to destroy the union?
1
Maryland was a border state, and Frederick Douglass lived most of his life as a slave in Maryland.
1
I wonder if the erudite professor will ever condemn violence? She has conveniently neglected the violence committed by those who fight on the side of righteousness, like the Black Lives Matter inspired killers of police in Dallas, Texas and Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
It's curious to me that white slave holding racists of the South fought and killed other white men because they were fighting to preserve the institution of slavery. Brothers were fighting and killing each other, all over the black slave? It seems they valued the life of their slaves more than they valued their own lives.
It's curious to me that white slave holding racists of the South fought and killed other white men because they were fighting to preserve the institution of slavery. Brothers were fighting and killing each other, all over the black slave? It seems they valued the life of their slaves more than they valued their own lives.
4
I am OK with taking down the memorials and we can even extend the razing to the statues of Washington and Jefferson. I think most people are making too much of this whole issue. How many people have actually spent more than 5 minutes in their lives looking at even one of these statues? Taking them down won't change my opinion of these great but flawed individuals. We should spent more time reading about them than looking at their statues.
3
Interesting view. By galvanizing the public on both sides around this issue, the alt-right is being energized. By dealing with statues instead of more substantive issues around racism and intolerance, the White Supremacists are being given an opportunity to rally their troops and, god forbid, grow their numbers.
1
Would putting these statues in a museum perhaps be the best for both sides? Rather than public monuments a museum could place them in exhibits with context.
2
1. ALL LIVES matter, we are ALL EQUAL.
2. Express views and opinions civilly and respectfully.
3. History is history. Yes, some events and persons commit or express evil ... OR ... at some later time such actions or views are then viewed as evil.
4. LEARN from both good and bad/evil. For example, touring a concentration camp is so overwhelming it to this day gives one pain.
5. Be calm and thoughtful when deciding what artifacts/statutes/locations/buildings etc. to eradicate for all time as such can serve as learning and warning and teaching to newcomers to OUR world.
2. Express views and opinions civilly and respectfully.
3. History is history. Yes, some events and persons commit or express evil ... OR ... at some later time such actions or views are then viewed as evil.
4. LEARN from both good and bad/evil. For example, touring a concentration camp is so overwhelming it to this day gives one pain.
5. Be calm and thoughtful when deciding what artifacts/statutes/locations/buildings etc. to eradicate for all time as such can serve as learning and warning and teaching to newcomers to OUR world.
5
"Be calm and thoughtful when deciding what artifacts/statutes/locations/buildings etc. to eradicate for all time as such can serve as learning and warning and teaching to newcomers to OUR world." Yes, because everyone knows that those statues are used as aids to teaching that slaveholding, racism, and treason are wrong.
Would it be "honoring history" for Germany to erect statues of Nazi generals? Or to display statues of Hitler here and there throughout the country? Or to decorate parks and campuses with swastika sculptures? As an American, I do not want to "honor" the horror of slavery. Nor the bloody war fought to maintain that evil system.
Sculptures and other public works of art are clearly honoring the people (and thereby their deeds) who are portrayed.
There is plenty of "access to our history" in books and documentaries and other such traditional resources. But statues and sculptures and public artistic displays carry the message of "honor" and "dignity" and "pride" within them. And I feel they should all be removed from public places.
If Robert E. Lee's family wants to display that statue on their own property, for their own family reasons, let them. If there is a museum that wants to display the Lee sculpture and other sculptures honoring Civil War soldiers, then put the statues there.
But such statues should not be displayed on public grounds as if these were great man fighting for a great cause, for that kind of message is a lie.
Sculptures and other public works of art are clearly honoring the people (and thereby their deeds) who are portrayed.
There is plenty of "access to our history" in books and documentaries and other such traditional resources. But statues and sculptures and public artistic displays carry the message of "honor" and "dignity" and "pride" within them. And I feel they should all be removed from public places.
If Robert E. Lee's family wants to display that statue on their own property, for their own family reasons, let them. If there is a museum that wants to display the Lee sculpture and other sculptures honoring Civil War soldiers, then put the statues there.
But such statues should not be displayed on public grounds as if these were great man fighting for a great cause, for that kind of message is a lie.
3
I hate to tell you this because it disrupts the jingoistic, amnesiac, nationalist narrative of American rectitude and greatness, but the civil war was fought between two slave-holding countries -- the Confederacy and the USA, neither had abolished slavery and both held slaves. The last slaves in America were freed in Delaware in December of 1865, six months after the war ended. Delaware was never part of the Confederacy. These monuments were put up by grandchildren to say to the ir grandfathers, "Even though you lost, we still are proud of you." Slavery was an abomination, but we cannot rewrite history and pretend that one side was anti-racist and the other was racist. The USA in 1861 was profoundly racist.
1
Tearing down statuary is an ancient ritual and is done by the conquering side after the war. The winners do not want the defeated to have any symbols of the past to rally round.
In this sense the removal of confederate symbols, whether the flag or statuary was never been done by winning side. I am not sure why, but it seems that as the war was almost fratricidal, the most of the winners did not want to impose their will on the losers.
However, as noted in this article most of the statuary was not constructed until well after the war and so the symbols of the past were put up to rally around. Certainly much of that symbolism is about defending a mentality that lurches toward if not stands firmly in racism.
While I have read that General Lee was an honorable man, still his statue is not him, but a symbol of racism. Why else would the KKK and White Nationalist be so angry that it be taken down.
In Russia and elsewhere in the former Soviet Union many statues of Lenin were torn down in the 1990's nevertheless many remain. Lenin was a monster, but many in Russia, especially the older people, revere him and so his statues will remain until that generation dies off. I am pretty sure that few of the younger generation of Russians will care whether his statues stay or go.
In the end in a pluralistic society I think it should be a local decision. In Charlottesville, the community decided to take Lee down and no one should stand in their way.
In this sense the removal of confederate symbols, whether the flag or statuary was never been done by winning side. I am not sure why, but it seems that as the war was almost fratricidal, the most of the winners did not want to impose their will on the losers.
However, as noted in this article most of the statuary was not constructed until well after the war and so the symbols of the past were put up to rally around. Certainly much of that symbolism is about defending a mentality that lurches toward if not stands firmly in racism.
While I have read that General Lee was an honorable man, still his statue is not him, but a symbol of racism. Why else would the KKK and White Nationalist be so angry that it be taken down.
In Russia and elsewhere in the former Soviet Union many statues of Lenin were torn down in the 1990's nevertheless many remain. Lenin was a monster, but many in Russia, especially the older people, revere him and so his statues will remain until that generation dies off. I am pretty sure that few of the younger generation of Russians will care whether his statues stay or go.
In the end in a pluralistic society I think it should be a local decision. In Charlottesville, the community decided to take Lee down and no one should stand in their way.
Leave the confederate monuments in place. Install next to them monuments to the horrors of slavery. Perhaps statuary showing a slave child being ripped from his mother to be sold? Or being beaten to an inch of his life? Yes, by all means let Lee continue to sit nobly on Traveler. But let's also show the horror that would have continued for many decades had he won.
2
In its origins, the swastika mainly was mainly a symbol of virtues and principles. Moving westward, it became a talisman of good luck. We know what it has come to represent since Germany in the thirties. Symbols or icons don’t mean anything by themselves. Not a single object is intrinsically good or evil. The same goes for a Confederate general’s statue. It’s the people using it or surrounding it with their particular allusions to it that imprints a spirit on the object, being that spirit dark or enlightening. We know what a statue has turned into when it is surrounded by (predominantly male) crowds holding weapons in their protests, yelling their hatred towards different groups of people, proclaiming patriarchy as their ultimate goal.
This is ridiculous. The logic is totally utilitarian which has no legal justification. Precisely because something makes me cry justifies its demise. Hey this house is ugly, let's destroy it. Unfortunately democracy is totalitarian that ppl can change the law as they wish. It is no difference from mafia.
6
This is an example of 'presentism' -- judging the past in terms of 21st Century ethos. Yes, the Southerners fought for slavery, and for states' rights, and for preserving an economy that few Southerners enjoyed, and against Big Government ('northern aggression") and northerners who sold them slaves and then wanted to ruin them. We should ask ourselves, does tearing these images of the past unify the country? or simply placate one group's unthinking emotions at the expense of another group's animosity?
3
Let's imagine that we do remove the statue of General Lee. Let's imagine that ten, twenty years pass. A school group passes by a now "empty" park. There are trees, there are flowers. There is a park bench, but no statue. What provokes a discussion of history? What provokes a discussion of the admitted racism that fueled the Civil War, and the erection of this statue? Our history will be forgotten, our children will be "dumbed down." Erasing the pass isn't an answer. A better solution would be to post parallel monuments, or plaques discussing the troubled and complex history of the South and of the United States. Imagining a history in which it's all "safe spaces" is the fool's gold of an empty room.
5
Responding to the headline. Why the obvious false choice? The Confederacy was formed to maintain white supremacy and heritage from a perceived Northern threat. This is part of the heritage being defended now.
1
I disagree with this opinion. I hope Mr. Bannet who runs the op-eds at the NYT will also allow or invite people with different opinions on this topic to publish an op-ed.
6
The paradox of Charlottesville is that while the town wants to erase our history of the American Civil War, they embrace the history of Thomas Jefferson. At least Lee freed his slaves. Jefferson wrote all men are created equal, but he considered slaves to be property. He even took his property to the White House to serve him as President. Oh, and he fathered a child with a slave... I'm sure she was a willing partner. Which is worse?
At what point do we realize our past isn't perfect, but it is our collective history which defines our Nation. Let's look forward, not back.
At what point do we realize our past isn't perfect, but it is our collective history which defines our Nation. Let's look forward, not back.
4
Does the GOP actually want another civil war on it's hands? You betcha!
Fascists band to boast a figurehead who motivates the hubristic ignorant masses to terrorize their neighbors and subjugate themselves to a cause which offers a prominence that they cannot achieve in their own misery. Mussolini, Hitler, and lesser devils vied intensely for the crown. It takes more than a besom of monuments to remove their stains. No, we must bring out our historical scalpels of truth to expose the roots and details. Trump, the hyperbolic egotist supreme, stands at the apex of history in a final attempt to unite the scoundrels of the world. His bumbling sophistry, hobbled by the memory of a goldfish, appeals to weakened minds. Will we let him trump mankind's progress? Will we let this global scorning destroy all that is good? Will we turn back the clocks to times that were truly better for some and worse for most? Or will we let another cog of progress slip to extend all that is bad about our past?
What about the statue of mass murderer Vladimir Lenin in Seattle that the left celebrates? Pretty clear the left doesn't bemoan Confederate statues because they represent hatred, they bemoan them because the left is out to destroy the right. They aren't after peace or harmony. How could they be when they hold mass murdering leftists on pedestals? It isn't peace they are after but violence, violence against conservatism and traditionalism. They won't stop until they collapse this country, eradicate history, eradicate free thought, and turn the country into Lenin's utopia, using a modern red terror to eliminate all political rivals, securing power for themselves at any cost.
4
You say "destroy the right" as if that were a bad thing...Additionally, the statue of Lenin is private property, displayed on private property. You could look it up.
Thank you for confirming my point.
When I lived in the south I used to ask those that glorify the confederate past why they were in love with a bunch of treasonous losers and watch their heads explode. I vividly remember someone telling me that the civil war had nothing to do with slavery, so I said fine let's google the articles of succession from South Carolina where we happened to be sitting. Well low and behold it's right there in the first sentence or two. These people are will fully ignorant and uninterested in the truth. I wish I had a solution for this but I'm just one person with no megaphone competing against the current occupant of the White House with the worlds largest megaphone.
1
“Jews will not replace us.” How ironic, one of #45's principal benefactors is Sheldon Adelson. Have we ween this movie before?
1
A historian on TV last night disputed the notion that the building of the monuments in the early 20th century was due to Jim Crow fervor, pointing out that the two peaks in the now famous graph in The Rolling Stone correspond more correctly to the 50th and 100th anniversaries of Civil War events.
Be that as it may, there is also another solution to this problem, as the Governor of Tennessee said last night. They can be removed and then placed in a museum or display where they get adequate curation and explanation of who they are and when or why they were built, what they symbolize, and why they are no longer revered.
The notion, increasingly prevalent now that we have the Internet for our source of information with its ones and zeros clarity, that everything is a binary choice is a fallacy. Actually, we've known that for a long time: Laozi said, "Everyone understands what good is, and so we have evil," in the 3rd century BCE. Reality isn't digital, it isn't pure, and there are frequently more than two choices for things. If this society still understood how to engage in civil debate with those with whom we don't agree, we wouldn't be making all this negative progress.
It really is better not to forget history, even though that doesn't mean glorify a rancid past. People who argue for the complete destruction of all memories of the Confederacy should read George Santayana's famous quote: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
Be that as it may, there is also another solution to this problem, as the Governor of Tennessee said last night. They can be removed and then placed in a museum or display where they get adequate curation and explanation of who they are and when or why they were built, what they symbolize, and why they are no longer revered.
The notion, increasingly prevalent now that we have the Internet for our source of information with its ones and zeros clarity, that everything is a binary choice is a fallacy. Actually, we've known that for a long time: Laozi said, "Everyone understands what good is, and so we have evil," in the 3rd century BCE. Reality isn't digital, it isn't pure, and there are frequently more than two choices for things. If this society still understood how to engage in civil debate with those with whom we don't agree, we wouldn't be making all this negative progress.
It really is better not to forget history, even though that doesn't mean glorify a rancid past. People who argue for the complete destruction of all memories of the Confederacy should read George Santayana's famous quote: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
4
I disagree with the Professor regarding the removal of the statues. I myself have no stake in the south, the Confederacy, nor in white people; however, as an American, I am bothered by the general American amnesia about its own history, the good and the bad, and the frivolous belief that taking down some statues will somehow erase that history or purge our country of the many racists in our midst. It will do neither. In fact, when the professor asks "at what cost," in relation to keeping the monuments; I ask the same in relation to removing them. I suspect we will only see more racism, more violence with the continued removal of them; whereas keeping them ultimately incites nothing. Here in New York City, we have countless statues and monuments commemorating people and events we know nothing about anymore. They hold as much meaning to us as park benches. However, if someone suggested removing one of them, the previously meaningless might very well become significant for whatever reason. These confederate statues have become imbued with a meaning the removal of which will not undue. You want to solve the problem. You need to get to the root. The professor isn't getting us to the root; rather, she is asking us to walk deeper into the weeds. What we should be doing instead of taking old monuments down is putting new ones up so that we can tell a more complete history of our nation. We should also wonder why we have so many hateful disillusioned people among us.
48
These statues are a tribute to white supremacy. Ask a black person how he/she feels to see one of the oppressors proudly ensconced in a park they share. It's called "walking in some else's shoes".
In the wake of the Age of Obama and Black Lives Matter and the Age of Trump and white resentment the existence of Confederate Monuments and their removal falls deeply, heavily and meaningfully along America's humanity denying African slavery and equality defying African Jim Crow colored caste lines.
1
Walking in someone else's shoes is something we should all do; it would certainly go a long way to building a common humanity. I don't, however, see that as the issue here. And since the author of the article is white and I am not, I am not exactly sure whose shoes I should be walking in. And, frankly, more than anything else, confederate statues, if they are a tribute to anything, it is to complete and utter failure.
That said, I would add a caveat to my original comment that, yes, if a statue put up years ago no longer resonates on any level with the community currently inhabiting the space (as often happens here in NYC, though not usually for any racial reasons, but rather, for reasons of historic disconnect), than yes, by all means, remove it. But, please, don't fool yourself one second, as the professor has, into thinking that the hate on display this past weekend is going away: that type of hate was not caused, nor fueled by statues. It is a fool's errand to think removing statues, that in and of themselves hold no meaning other than what you or I assign to them, will remove that. After all, these racists also appropriated a cartoon character, if I'm not mistaken. So, yes, let's put on those shoes and start walking. Hopefully we'll end up in a better place.
That said, I would add a caveat to my original comment that, yes, if a statue put up years ago no longer resonates on any level with the community currently inhabiting the space (as often happens here in NYC, though not usually for any racial reasons, but rather, for reasons of historic disconnect), than yes, by all means, remove it. But, please, don't fool yourself one second, as the professor has, into thinking that the hate on display this past weekend is going away: that type of hate was not caused, nor fueled by statues. It is a fool's errand to think removing statues, that in and of themselves hold no meaning other than what you or I assign to them, will remove that. After all, these racists also appropriated a cartoon character, if I'm not mistaken. So, yes, let's put on those shoes and start walking. Hopefully we'll end up in a better place.
1
And while we're at it, let's close every Civil War battle site. Sell off the land to developers. In a few years, Gettysburg will look just like any other rural town with strip malls, houses, apartments, and so on.
This is not as complicated as some people try to make it. The Confederate statues were erected for the sole purpose of telling the non-white population that the whites were superior. For that sole reason, they should be removed.
119
Thank you and to add, most were erected during the period of imposition of Jim Crow laws across the South and not coincidentally, during the period of lynchings and growth of the KKK. To subject our fellow citizens who are African-American and descendants of slaves to the memorials reminding them of all of that pain is simply unconscionable.
Unlike America itself which was founded to help create a better world for its indigenous people. America would not even exist if not for total exploitation by whites.
This is a myopic view of the Civil War. Both sides put up statues of their heroes. And yes, Lincoln was a racist, though he did not believe in slavery.
2
There are no statues glorifying Hitler, Goering, or even the "Desert Fox," Rommel in Germany, nor are there statues glorifying Emperor Hirohito in Japan. Even in Russia, many of the statues of Lenin have been taken down. These were all men crucial to the history of their countries, and on whose behalf many died. But those countries recognize that men supporting evil, no matter how vital to their history, do not deserve to be publicly honored. You cannot honor the Confederate leaders without also honoring their cause: slavery, the reduction of a group of people to mere property, solely because of the color of their skin.
83
General Lee didn't have a genocide plans for whoever was not Confederate, neither did he put millions of slaves in gas chambers. He was a respected general of a losing army, 285,000 people died for him in a straight war. shall we also ban Gone with the Wind, because it gives us a romanticized view of the Confederate army?
5
Taking down statutes such as these is one step, but they should be replaced by memorials commemorating the victims. For instance, Germany has shown the way, such as in Leipzig with the Stolpersteine project in which plaques - specifying specific families - are placed on those homes where Jews used to live before they were forced to leave. What of setting up memorials to the victims, of say, lynching on those trees (that still survive), honoring those that were murdered. Perhaps the statue of Lee should be replaced with a monument honoring Heather Heyer and the others who were injured for standing up to blind bigotry and racism.
Yeah. One of the Lenin statues that was taken down in Russia now stands the the Fremont neighborhood of Seattle, a deliberate point of irony perhaps. He leans forward in his long coat as if beating his way though a heavy rain, which, of course in Seattle, he is.
Earlier comments make good points about the complexity of Lee's character and his personal dilemma. The problem with the monuments, as I see it, is that by offering a very simplistic vision of the Confederacy, in numbers far beyond the memorials to Union figures, they offer affirmation to persons needing confirmation of their own simplistic views, rather than provoking the viewer to reflection. As a culture, our common understanding of history is more mythical than factual. I suggest that Confederate sites, the history of which Ms. Cox describes accurately, be enhanced with an educational plaque describing their origins during a period of frequent lynchings, to help provoke thought. A website on the movement to honor the Confederacy as a 'lost cause' would also be useful. The same temperament led to a vast number of designations honoring Ronald Reagan, that can now be understood as the compensatory effort to enshrine a figure with a very mixed record. When the
complexity and contingency of history is restored, we might even see general interest in a broader picture develop--at least, outside the more extreme circles.
complexity and contingency of history is restored, we might even see general interest in a broader picture develop--at least, outside the more extreme circles.
4
Move the most representative of these statues to the National Civil War Museum in Harrisburg PA. The exhibit would preserve the art and explain the history and the symbolism that motivated their construction and removal.
12
Agreed but history is not what this is about for the Trump racists of course, it's about white supremacy, pure and simple.
The Sons and Daughters of the CSA aren't proud of the Confederacy they're ashamed of it, embarrassed of it, its a stain that needs to be scrubbed constantly so that it draws the least amount of negative eyes possible. General Lee's descendants hide his papers from historians 150 years after his death because they know what type of man he was, what type of world he envisioned, and the sickening things he did to maintain and spread it. That the facade of the Lost Cause is so fragile that the entire ideology can be destroyed with their Hero's own most intimate thoughts is the very mirror into modern soul of its adherents, if the world truly knew, it would be Lost forever, so they use marble and bronze to smash it and they look away.
But it isn't Lost and it lives among us today, we know what the Confederate Soilder who guards the courthouses and city halls across America means: the continued entrenched white power of the law against minorities and their allies.
North Carolina uses court-recognized illegal racial gerrymandering and Voter ID laws targeting blacks voters, win majorities with it, pass laws making it impossible for communities to vote to rid themselves of their white supremacy overseer. Having, finally, the Confederate ghosts trapped in stone stare out into the land beyond the courthouse lawn saying to every black man who walks into his first encounter with a ruthlessly racist prison-industrial complex: "American justice isn't blind because we see your skin"
But it isn't Lost and it lives among us today, we know what the Confederate Soilder who guards the courthouses and city halls across America means: the continued entrenched white power of the law against minorities and their allies.
North Carolina uses court-recognized illegal racial gerrymandering and Voter ID laws targeting blacks voters, win majorities with it, pass laws making it impossible for communities to vote to rid themselves of their white supremacy overseer. Having, finally, the Confederate ghosts trapped in stone stare out into the land beyond the courthouse lawn saying to every black man who walks into his first encounter with a ruthlessly racist prison-industrial complex: "American justice isn't blind because we see your skin"
10
And where do they stop? Newport RI was the center of the African Slave trade by 1700, and but it started 25 years before that during the King Philip War. Metacomet was shot, drawn and quartered then beheaded, His head sat on a pike at the Plymouth settlement for 20 years.
His wife and son were sold, yes that's right sold, as slaves into Bermuda, Governor Bradford, Captain Church, and Roger Williams by todays' standards were war criminals amd slave traders
By comparison, General Lee wasn't much of a racist. The whole episode in our history is silly. lashing out at statues and symbols. We have become a nation of whiners and complainers.
How you treat your neighbors and co-workers is much more relevant. Violence in the streets cannot be justified.
His wife and son were sold, yes that's right sold, as slaves into Bermuda, Governor Bradford, Captain Church, and Roger Williams by todays' standards were war criminals amd slave traders
By comparison, General Lee wasn't much of a racist. The whole episode in our history is silly. lashing out at statues and symbols. We have become a nation of whiners and complainers.
How you treat your neighbors and co-workers is much more relevant. Violence in the streets cannot be justified.
15
If we have become a nation of whiners, and you may well be right about that, it started with the Southerners who erected all these monuments to the losing side in the Civil War. Most of them were not erected in the months and years after the war--but rather more recently as a way of denying African Americans their full worth as citizens.
Having visited several cities in western Europe, I can say that I have never seen a statue to Hitler or any of his generals anywhere. Nor are there statues of Napoleon anywhere but France--and he probably commissioned most of them himself. Wonder why that is? Usually the losers get it--they lost. Not so with the South. They are still carrying family grudges from events 100 years ago--reminds you of the former Yugoslavia. So these statues are not monuments to great men of the past erected by those who knew them, but by modern racists determined to poke brown folks in the eye with their refusal to acknowledge the reality of modern society. Can't someone just tell them to get over it? They aren't noble or historic. They are ridiculous and vile.
Having visited several cities in western Europe, I can say that I have never seen a statue to Hitler or any of his generals anywhere. Nor are there statues of Napoleon anywhere but France--and he probably commissioned most of them himself. Wonder why that is? Usually the losers get it--they lost. Not so with the South. They are still carrying family grudges from events 100 years ago--reminds you of the former Yugoslavia. So these statues are not monuments to great men of the past erected by those who knew them, but by modern racists determined to poke brown folks in the eye with their refusal to acknowledge the reality of modern society. Can't someone just tell them to get over it? They aren't noble or historic. They are ridiculous and vile.
Our treatment of Native Americans - especially during our formative years in colonial New England - is indeed a stain on our country's history. Much of it is left out in our teaching of colonial America.
The issue of slavery wasn't resolved until two hundred years later, when most of the western world had clearly condemned the practice.
As for the whiners and complainers, the most vocal of these today are the members the alt-right, who seek to blame everyone else but themselves for their failed and unhappy lives. As white men in America, they have every advantage to succeed - more so than most other people on earth - yet here they are, whining and complaining that their failure to achieve something of themselves is the fault of immigrants, people of color and non-Christians. The irony is they are the products of the liberal-democratic society they hold in contempt — and upon which they completely depend on.
The issue of slavery wasn't resolved until two hundred years later, when most of the western world had clearly condemned the practice.
As for the whiners and complainers, the most vocal of these today are the members the alt-right, who seek to blame everyone else but themselves for their failed and unhappy lives. As white men in America, they have every advantage to succeed - more so than most other people on earth - yet here they are, whining and complaining that their failure to achieve something of themselves is the fault of immigrants, people of color and non-Christians. The irony is they are the products of the liberal-democratic society they hold in contempt — and upon which they completely depend on.
Here's where you draw the line: If you waged a treasonous and traitorous war against the United States, you don't get a monument. Pretty simple, actually.
1
These statues which represent the legacy of slavery and repression should be melted down and destroyed. They serve no purpose.
4
In view of the recent and tragic event, what happens to Washington and Lee University?
2
Leeway.
To the extent that monuments have been created to "memorialize" the Confederacy - they belong then in a museum - in an appropriate context. They do not belong in honored public places so that they may be glorified by racists and menacing to African Americans. It is so wrong that my heart hurts when I see white people trying to make "intellectual" arguments for the statues to remain in public. It is unthinkable. Can you imagine Chancellor Merkel arguing that Hitler statues should go up in Berlin parks as part of their heritage. If you want to learn proper Confederate history - pay attention in high school, go get good academic books on the subject and visit a museum. Parks and racist websites are absurd.
8
I think there is a difference between putting up a statue of Hitler, whose racism led to mass exterminations, and Robert E Lee who was conflicted over slavery and fought for the Confederacy out of loyalty to his state.
2
I'm okay with the removal of statues of Confederate leaders, but then look what happened in Baltimore last night...the statue was removed and the pedestal immediately spray painted with "black lives matter" with a group of black standing on top making the "black power" fist.
having a monument to one racist group replaced by another racist group isn't going to help the situation.
having a monument to one racist group replaced by another racist group isn't going to help the situation.
7
I suggest you (and many others) look up the word "racist."
You misused it in reference to BLM.
Confederates were (are...?) racists. BLM is not the same.
You misused it in reference to BLM.
Confederates were (are...?) racists. BLM is not the same.
This really is a case of mass hysteria. Taking down the statues will accomplish nothing in the eradication of bigotry.
7
I agree. The Stars and Bars have been used for racist purposes and were rightly removed from public places. However, a statue of someone who fought in the Civil War is not necessarily a symbol of hated and bigotry unless that person was a racist.
By the way, why are major military bases,e.g., Fort Hood and Fort Bragg, exempt from the strictures against "monuments" to treasonous individuals who too up arms against their country? If you want to clean house, clean it.
The U.S. Capitol building also needs some house cleaning.
Each state provides two statues to honor people from that state.
The Capitol Building's Statuary Hall contains statues of:
Jefferson Davis - Mississippi - President of the Confederate States
Alexander Hamilton Stephens - Georgia - the V.P. of the Confederate States
James Zachariah George - Mississippi - a confederate colonel
General Robert E. Lee - Confederate General, Virginia
Wade Hampton - South Carolina - Confederate general
Edmund Kirby Smith - Florida - Confederate general
John E. Kenna - West Virginian - Confederate soldier
Zebulon Vance - N. Carolina - Confederate officer
Joseph Wheeler - Alabama - Confederate cavalry
These men supported slavery, declared and waged war against the United States and caused the deaths of some 750,000 people. They do not deserve a place in the nation's Capitol.
Each state provides two statues to honor people from that state.
The Capitol Building's Statuary Hall contains statues of:
Jefferson Davis - Mississippi - President of the Confederate States
Alexander Hamilton Stephens - Georgia - the V.P. of the Confederate States
James Zachariah George - Mississippi - a confederate colonel
General Robert E. Lee - Confederate General, Virginia
Wade Hampton - South Carolina - Confederate general
Edmund Kirby Smith - Florida - Confederate general
John E. Kenna - West Virginian - Confederate soldier
Zebulon Vance - N. Carolina - Confederate officer
Joseph Wheeler - Alabama - Confederate cavalry
These men supported slavery, declared and waged war against the United States and caused the deaths of some 750,000 people. They do not deserve a place in the nation's Capitol.
8
I agree with you, TMM. No one who joined the rebellion against the Union should get to have his image immortalized as part of any display commemorating the Union.
"But the Charlottesville march, with its hundreds of neo-Nazis and white nationalists coming out to defend the memory of General Lee, puts the lie to the notion that, as the apologists say, these monuments are about 'heritage, not hate.'"
This needs to be repeated over and over and over again.
This needs to be repeated over and over and over again.
5
The "Alt Right" has succeeded where other white supremacists and hate groups have failed in galvanizing the body politic if the United States of America to recognize that the statues of Confederate military and political leaders and common soldiers and sailor often originally erected in name of a commemoration of the confederate war dead into the symbols of the so called "Lost Cause", anti-semitism and white supremacy.
Any semblance of commemoration of the sacrifices of the confederate war dead have been so submerged in this hatred and perpetuation of the "Alt Right's" utterly discredited and despicable ideals that these monuments cannot be allowed to continue to be publicly displayed or even continue exist.
The United States must pass laws similar to those passed in Germany to outlaw National Socialism (Nazi) symbol to outlaw the display of the symbols of and monuments to the Confederate State of America and the Confederacy.
Any semblance of commemoration of the sacrifices of the confederate war dead have been so submerged in this hatred and perpetuation of the "Alt Right's" utterly discredited and despicable ideals that these monuments cannot be allowed to continue to be publicly displayed or even continue exist.
The United States must pass laws similar to those passed in Germany to outlaw National Socialism (Nazi) symbol to outlaw the display of the symbols of and monuments to the Confederate State of America and the Confederacy.
1
"...people who showed up in Charlottesville chanting, 'Jews will not replace us'..."
It's so strange to think that Trump's promoters, funders, supporters, and enablers include people who should have foreseen the consequences of the forces they turned loose. Smart, able people like Kushner, Adelson, and Netanyahu. I guess their right-wing loyalty Trumped all their better judgment and morality.
It's so strange to think that Trump's promoters, funders, supporters, and enablers include people who should have foreseen the consequences of the forces they turned loose. Smart, able people like Kushner, Adelson, and Netanyahu. I guess their right-wing loyalty Trumped all their better judgment and morality.
2
To all those defending the statues of generals and common soldiers I ask: should Germany be full of statues commemorating Hitler and WWII soldiers? Should Ukraine perpetuate the memory of history by maintaining statues of Stalin? Should Korea have statues of the Japanese army?
The people who suffered under the Confederacy and who continue to suffer from the actions of those who defend it today do not need constant reminders that some Southerners still wish the "good old days" were here.
The people who suffered under the Confederacy and who continue to suffer from the actions of those who defend it today do not need constant reminders that some Southerners still wish the "good old days" were here.
5
America, We have a problem.
4
It seems that politicians on the left, unable to solve real problems like lower unemployment or provide universal health care for the poor, have resorted to tearing down monuments that a minority of Americans hold sacred, those who have relatives who died on the side of the South in the Civil War.
The result was predictable. Many in the South were offended but couldn't say so because they would be immediately labeled as racist. A few of the crazies did come out of the woodwork, and one used his auto to murder an innocent protester. But tearing down the statue was an incitement to violence.
The left preaches tolerance but demands a rigid uniformity of view.
If there were true freedom of speech, historians would defend the statues, because they do indeed teach us about the Civil War. Lest the gentle reader forget, the best estimate is that 620,000 perished in the Civil War, the larger portion fighting for the South. It was arguably the most bloody war in US history. Yes, Southern have a right to grieve for the fallen, and yes it is an act of unbelievable hatred to tear the statues down.
Who will the liberals come after next?
Washington and Jefferson owned slaves, so perhaps we should topple the Washington and Jefferson Memorials in Washington, oh wait, that city was named for a slave-owner.
Can the NY Times not see that it is promulgating a new and vicious form of hatred by condoning the toppling of monuments?
The NY Times is as bad as the Volkischer Beobachter!
The result was predictable. Many in the South were offended but couldn't say so because they would be immediately labeled as racist. A few of the crazies did come out of the woodwork, and one used his auto to murder an innocent protester. But tearing down the statue was an incitement to violence.
The left preaches tolerance but demands a rigid uniformity of view.
If there were true freedom of speech, historians would defend the statues, because they do indeed teach us about the Civil War. Lest the gentle reader forget, the best estimate is that 620,000 perished in the Civil War, the larger portion fighting for the South. It was arguably the most bloody war in US history. Yes, Southern have a right to grieve for the fallen, and yes it is an act of unbelievable hatred to tear the statues down.
Who will the liberals come after next?
Washington and Jefferson owned slaves, so perhaps we should topple the Washington and Jefferson Memorials in Washington, oh wait, that city was named for a slave-owner.
Can the NY Times not see that it is promulgating a new and vicious form of hatred by condoning the toppling of monuments?
The NY Times is as bad as the Volkischer Beobachter!
4
The left didn't tear down the statue in Charlottesville, the town government voted to take it down. The statues aren't about grieving for the fallen but about perpetuating the Lost Cause myth. That's why the most frequent erections took place during periods when the defense of Jim Crow and other forms of segregation was being rallied. That is what the defenders of the statues are defending.
Neither Washington nor Jefferson are defined exclusively by being slave-owners while the raison d'etre of the Confederacy was the defense of slavery (and the raison d'etre of the statues is to cover that up).
The only proper analogy to the Volkishcer Beobachter are the alt-right militants who defended statue.
Neither Washington nor Jefferson are defined exclusively by being slave-owners while the raison d'etre of the Confederacy was the defense of slavery (and the raison d'etre of the statues is to cover that up).
The only proper analogy to the Volkishcer Beobachter are the alt-right militants who defended statue.
Yes. All these must go. They are NOT about history, but rather are signs of a present reality that disgraces this country.
1
I would also vote to take down all statues of those who waged war against civilian populations. After the confederate monuments, the first two on my list would be the Sherman statue at 59th and 5th and the Sheridan statue next to the Massachusetts State House. If you disagree, please tell me how you parse Sheridan's statement "The only good Indian is a dead Indian."
3
My thoughts: Why have the monuments become such an issue at this particular point time? Is their removal or retention really issue that mandates federal intervention?
4
Wishful thinking, Ms. Cox. America never has had a serious interest in getting down to the serious business of race: the stones and statues and monuments and monoliths that, like the underlying phallic symbols that they are, thrust themselves into the sky to scream: "we are (the great) white!"
The president of the United States, the least knowledgeable American alive today, yesterday, and for all time, bestowed upon this land the imprimatur of John Calhoun, Jefferson Davis and the scores of generals who raised arms against their country. The spawn of hate found comfort in the culture of segregation down through Reconstruction, Jim Crow, into the Civil Rights movement and beyond. Strom Thurmond, the father of the modern Republican Party and all his fellows in the Senate from the dusty South: James Eastland, Richard Russell, J. William Fulbright, down to today's Mitch McConnell, John Cornyn, the erstwhile senator from Alabama, Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III. He's now, fittingly under Trump, the Attorney General.
Not to be be left out of the "White Man's Party" were former presidents Grant, Hayes, McKinley, Wilson and, more recently, Nixon and Reagan. This un-American roster listed here are quite the white, male, wealthy American experience. All these erections of Southern "heritage" represent the jungle, the chaos of empty rule by one faction over many others. Americans know this, but have silently acquiesced for 240 years.
Donald Trump is the latest iteration: pure evil.
The president of the United States, the least knowledgeable American alive today, yesterday, and for all time, bestowed upon this land the imprimatur of John Calhoun, Jefferson Davis and the scores of generals who raised arms against their country. The spawn of hate found comfort in the culture of segregation down through Reconstruction, Jim Crow, into the Civil Rights movement and beyond. Strom Thurmond, the father of the modern Republican Party and all his fellows in the Senate from the dusty South: James Eastland, Richard Russell, J. William Fulbright, down to today's Mitch McConnell, John Cornyn, the erstwhile senator from Alabama, Jefferson Beauregard Sessions III. He's now, fittingly under Trump, the Attorney General.
Not to be be left out of the "White Man's Party" were former presidents Grant, Hayes, McKinley, Wilson and, more recently, Nixon and Reagan. This un-American roster listed here are quite the white, male, wealthy American experience. All these erections of Southern "heritage" represent the jungle, the chaos of empty rule by one faction over many others. Americans know this, but have silently acquiesced for 240 years.
Donald Trump is the latest iteration: pure evil.
2
Monuments to the Confederacy are monuments to traitors, terrorists, and White supremacy. No more, no less. They honor those who sought to destroy our country and preserve slavery, and then later fought to disenfranchise Blacks through terrorism and the law do not deserve to be put back n a pedestal. If they are so bent in preserving history, where are their members monuments commentating the slave rebellions, the individuals who resisted the Klan or lost their lives trying to vote? What's next, a monument to famous Torres who fought for England during our War for Independence? The Confederacy was un-American and so are those who romanticize it.
2
I don't understand why the white supremacist thugs are protesting the removal of these statues. Their leader Trump has repeatedly said he only likes winners, not losers. Last time we checked, Lee and Stonewall were losers. Following Trump's philosophy, they shouldn't be honored.
2
So Lee offends your sensibilities and you want him down. Can you explain how is this different than the Taliban taking down Buddhist statues because they offend their sensibilities or how this is different from ISIS removing crosses across the birth place of Christianity because it offends them?
Lik it or not Slavery, Japenese interment, discrimination against women, gays and immigrants are all part of the American fabric. If you removed all of these things you may find yourself with Sweden or Latvia.
The main problem is that for the past 30 years Democrats have practiced Identity politics, celebrating every identity except the white one. To every action, there is a reaction. And taking down Lee will slow down progress towards a more equitable America.
Lik it or not Slavery, Japenese interment, discrimination against women, gays and immigrants are all part of the American fabric. If you removed all of these things you may find yourself with Sweden or Latvia.
The main problem is that for the past 30 years Democrats have practiced Identity politics, celebrating every identity except the white one. To every action, there is a reaction. And taking down Lee will slow down progress towards a more equitable America.
10
Let them be. The statues, those who fight and hate to protect them, those that push to remove them. Let them all be, except those that commit criminal acts.
I always despised the phrase "We Stand United". It was the big rah-rah phrase after 9-11 and it made me sick then. America does not "stand united", never has, never will. We do often stand together. We often pull together, ignoring our differences and pushing toward a common goal: the betterment of our nation. Even that is a rarity, especially these days with an egotistical tyrant wannabe in the White House who has no idea what his role should be.
Statues are like flags and patriotism - who was it that wrote "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"? The history writers can frame it however those in power want it to look - they can't change it. We must remember that "heroes" are not to be admired simply because they fought for the Confederacy - or because they fought for the Union. There were plenty of nasty people on both sides. Not everything in that history boils down to "slavery", which is an evil we still need to erase from the planet.
Some - not all - of those statues should remain is reminders of the past, including the times when the statues were erected. Most - not all - could disappear and no one would really miss them after a short time. But please let there never be a statue to white supremacists, American nazis or Donald Trump. We need to pull together and be rid of them.
I always despised the phrase "We Stand United". It was the big rah-rah phrase after 9-11 and it made me sick then. America does not "stand united", never has, never will. We do often stand together. We often pull together, ignoring our differences and pushing toward a common goal: the betterment of our nation. Even that is a rarity, especially these days with an egotistical tyrant wannabe in the White House who has no idea what his role should be.
Statues are like flags and patriotism - who was it that wrote "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"? The history writers can frame it however those in power want it to look - they can't change it. We must remember that "heroes" are not to be admired simply because they fought for the Confederacy - or because they fought for the Union. There were plenty of nasty people on both sides. Not everything in that history boils down to "slavery", which is an evil we still need to erase from the planet.
Some - not all - of those statues should remain is reminders of the past, including the times when the statues were erected. Most - not all - could disappear and no one would really miss them after a short time. But please let there never be a statue to white supremacists, American nazis or Donald Trump. We need to pull together and be rid of them.
2
All Monuments should fall...in an equal society, NO person is deserving of a stone or metal monument? First erase Mount Rushmore...then for every Confederate monument...every MLK...NO individual monuments....
Granite perpetuates racism, political bigotry and ideological warfare....
Ergo...ALL statues to any individuals in America ( including named highways and boulevards, etc) need to be cleansed and sanitized....acknowledge the diversity of discussion..persuasion..legislative accomplishments/compromise....but abolish the divisive habit of erecting granitic memorials to any one person/cause...Right and Left....it's time?
Granite perpetuates racism, political bigotry and ideological warfare....
Ergo...ALL statues to any individuals in America ( including named highways and boulevards, etc) need to be cleansed and sanitized....acknowledge the diversity of discussion..persuasion..legislative accomplishments/compromise....but abolish the divisive habit of erecting granitic memorials to any one person/cause...Right and Left....it's time?
In a number of years time the white population will be in the minority in the US and these statues will naturally lose their relevance to people. Then their removal will cause no riots. Why not allow them to fade away rather than insisting that your recent history needs to be erased?
Let us also remove the name of Woodrow Wilson from Princeton's public policy school. As president Wilson resegregated federal employeess. He featured the movie Birth of a Nation at the White House. I 've never understood how Paul Krugman could be associated with a school named for a segregationist.
1
Perhaps the rather than removing the statues we should just change the plaques to say something to like 'In 1890, a group of racists Southerners tried to rewrite history by declaring soldiers in the cause of slavery were good people. They started putting up statues of confederate soldiers around then. This is silly of course, but there you are...."
Sadly, following the Civil War, the U.S. was too generous to whites in the South. Had justice been properly meted, this continuing cancer of racism might not exist today.
1
So many Confederate apologists so concerned about shoving history into the closet, well I have an idea for you.
Melt them down. Every last one of them. Every memorial to the traitors and white supremacists who started the Civil War. (And a note to the Confederate apologists: the South shot first. We know whom to blame. It's the War of Southern Aggression, Treason, and Slavery.)
Once we've melted down the memorials to slave owners and traitors, we can use the metal to build memorials to those whose lives were destroyed by slavery. Where are those memorials, anyway?
Why does anyone seek to honor those who perpetuated slavery when we might have a memorial to Harriet Tubman instead?
Melt them down. Every last one of them. Every memorial to the traitors and white supremacists who started the Civil War. (And a note to the Confederate apologists: the South shot first. We know whom to blame. It's the War of Southern Aggression, Treason, and Slavery.)
Once we've melted down the memorials to slave owners and traitors, we can use the metal to build memorials to those whose lives were destroyed by slavery. Where are those memorials, anyway?
Why does anyone seek to honor those who perpetuated slavery when we might have a memorial to Harriet Tubman instead?
1
Robert E. Lee killed Americans while defending the institution of slavery.
1
Where are the monuments to the thousands or millions of people of color that perished before during and the 1863 to 1865 war for White Supremacy? These are the monuments that the President should promote: Monuments that honor the memory of these victims and warn of what can happen when men of any color run amok believing that only they are worthy, that only they should lead. This President brings shame upon the values and the traditions of this country in justifying in any way the provocateurs in Charlottesville.
1
The most recent riot in Charlottesville had nothing to do with Monuments or Heritage. That is the guise of white supremists and Neo-Nazi fanatics. There is an easy solution to this "Monument" Problem. Move them to Battlefields or Museums, or put a plaque explaining the historical context. You cannot politically correct a history fraught with slavery. Waving the Confederate Battle Flag is an insult to all the soldiers--Confederate and Union who died in the Civil War. The North won, put the flag away. The only flag that needs to be flown is the one that unites us, the US Flag! To those in government that support these terrorists--shame on you. My great uncle was killed by Nazi soldiers in France in WWII. There is no love or support for these so called Alt Right Groups.
2
The myth of the 'white supremacist' is as deeply rooted as the myth that your civil war was about slavery. The civil war was fought to stop the southern states seceding and destroying America. Slavery was a convenient pedestal to elevate a dirty war in to a cause and to recruit negroes into the union army to boost manpower. This 'cause' was also useful to defuse the opposition of northern communities to the horrors of the first modern war.
Much of the fear, anger and violence that is seen today is a consequence of creating that 'cause' and its aftermath in the south after the war.
Abhor the violence but be honest as to its roots.
Much of the fear, anger and violence that is seen today is a consequence of creating that 'cause' and its aftermath in the south after the war.
Abhor the violence but be honest as to its roots.
1
The South fought the war to preserve slavery. The North fought the war to preserve the Union. It's all pretty clear.
1
I guess what I don't get about these monuments is why they are there to begin with. The confederacy got its teeth kicked in in the civil war so since when do we erect monuments to losers?
2
Statues of confederacy characters should never have been erected in any public square, in any state at any time. Be clear...Confederates were secessionists...Confederates were traitors to the Constitution of the United States.
They should never be forgotten; their artifacts should be properly categorized and contained within museums and presented to the public within the scope, time-frame and historical significance upon which they existed. All associated political, societal, economic and environmental conditions of the time-frame should be included in order to provide a learning environment so that present-day citizens will not repeat historical mistakes in the future.
They should never be forgotten; their artifacts should be properly categorized and contained within museums and presented to the public within the scope, time-frame and historical significance upon which they existed. All associated political, societal, economic and environmental conditions of the time-frame should be included in order to provide a learning environment so that present-day citizens will not repeat historical mistakes in the future.
3
Robert E Lee was not a slaveholder; he was a brilliant military strategist much loved by his troops. He was also a traitor. Having taken an oath to defend the US from all aggression, foreign and domestic, he took up his sword against his fellow Americans, of whom 350,000 lost their lives in the rebellion. He was also, technically, not a citizen. His application for citizenship was left on a shelf somewhere in DC and was still there at his death in 1870. His image has no place in public places; it should simply be recorded in history books as a warning to all of us.
1
ISIS tried the same approach, destroying monuments that symbolize views they don't agree with, and it had the opposite of the intended result, strengthening the opposition.
2
Auschwitz and Dachau are indeed reminders of the atrocities of history, they are a visceral reminder of our need for vigilance. But Confederate monuments are not at all the same thing. They do not serve as historical reminders, they act as symbols of white supremacy and oppression, as the columnist and other commenters have noted.
We do not need them and should be rid of them as quickly as possible. If we're going to make equivalences between European concentration camps and examples here in the US, there are a number of plantations still standing in the south.
We do not need them and should be rid of them as quickly as possible. If we're going to make equivalences between European concentration camps and examples here in the US, there are a number of plantations still standing in the south.
3
When religion becomes politicised and hated becomes organised danger lurks for any society. The Civil War is still near in our memory tradition and arouses in many the kind of passion we are witnessing when removing Confederate monuments. Many Southern whites continue to take an apologetic view of the War but don't take to violence to act out their feelings. The violence has been orchestrated by the extreme racist and Nazi fringe. As hate ideology is paraded in social media and in some outlets such as Breitbart and Fox News gains a level of social acceptance and ranks of these extremists appear to have grown in recent years. They are emboldened too when they get some tacit approval if not support from those at the top including the president. Public display of Confederate symbols such as their flag on government property must be outlawed. The monuments even if erected some years after the Civil War are best removed and placed in designated areas as reminders of a sad period in our history. They have a lesson to teach us on the true spirit of our nation as outlined by our Founders (granted we now acknowledge that many of them seen through today's lens did not exemplify that spirit!). It's the boldness and vision of their message that we try to live by not their personal weaknesses. If not what's the difference between us and the ISIS and Other extremist Islamist brutes rampaging the Middle East obliterating monuments of their history from centuries before Islam?
17
So when does the Left propose a march on Gettysburg to take down those Confederate monuments? Is it OK to dig up and desecrate the graves of Confederate soldiers?
How far does the Left wish to whitewash (oops, should that word be banished while we're at it) history?
How far does the Left wish to whitewash (oops, should that word be banished while we're at it) history?
8
Don't gie them nay ideas or the left will be tearing up graves.
1
Tsk, Tsk Tsk. Is there still no one clamoring to topple Albert Pike's monument in D.C.?
Take them down. If this was Europe and the statue was of, let's say, Hermann Göring there would be no discussion that the statue had to go. It's the same thing here.
3
This logic might hold if the USA had outlawed slavery before the civil war. The last slaves in the USA were held in Delaware and not freed until six months after the war ended. Delaware was never part of the Confederacy. It was part of the United States. Please tell me how General Lee was supposed to guess that sometime in the future slavery would be abolished in the North? And, if you say he was a "traitor" -- well the people who fought him for five years never called him that..so go figure...maybe you know better than the Union generals...
1
To borrow from the tagline, in an attempt to show the ridiculousness of the logic:
Spoons must be abolished. They aren't about feeding people, they are tools for the obese to continue raising healthcare prices for the rest of us.
Cars must be abolished. They aren't about transportation, they are tools for Americans to kill others and themselves in record numbers.
Spoons must be abolished. They aren't about feeding people, they are tools for the obese to continue raising healthcare prices for the rest of us.
Cars must be abolished. They aren't about transportation, they are tools for Americans to kill others and themselves in record numbers.
4
"White supremacists aren’t the only defenders of these monuments. President Trump on Tuesday criticized efforts to take them down."
Considerate of you to give this man the benefit of the doubt, but he made it quite clear in his press conference yesterday that he's a racist.
Considerate of you to give this man the benefit of the doubt, but he made it quite clear in his press conference yesterday that he's a racist.
4
If confederate monuments must fall for all reasons here exposed, another one, famous, very popular and emblematic, will have to fall when time comes.
Even if the Lakota drove the Cheyenne from the Black Hills in the late 18th century, the sacred land can undoubtedly be considered so for Northern Plains Indians...and even without a holy setting, the four granite-carved faces are nothing less than an official, government-sponsored ( National Parks Service) normalisation of white suprematism, in the very land of those it crushed into nothingness.
Even if the Lakota drove the Cheyenne from the Black Hills in the late 18th century, the sacred land can undoubtedly be considered so for Northern Plains Indians...and even without a holy setting, the four granite-carved faces are nothing less than an official, government-sponsored ( National Parks Service) normalisation of white suprematism, in the very land of those it crushed into nothingness.
4
I remember the first time I went to Charlottesville and saw the statue in question and my reaction, as a white Yankee, was: "I don't belong here." I knew I could never live in a place that was still fighting the Civil War --- on the wrong side. The statue, in its prominent place, was a symbolic barrier that made me a permanent alien.
These statues need to be stored away until they can be brought out as historical artifacts in museum settings as the evidence of the Jim Crow era that they are. It will be two or three generations before that can happen as the Trump era is a Jim Crow redux complete with bamboozled working class white males angry at the wrong people.
These statues need to be stored away until they can be brought out as historical artifacts in museum settings as the evidence of the Jim Crow era that they are. It will be two or three generations before that can happen as the Trump era is a Jim Crow redux complete with bamboozled working class white males angry at the wrong people.
5
It is important never to forget and always to point out that those who carry the flag of the confederacy carry the flag of treason.
And the flag of slavery, of course.
It is no better than carrying the swastika or the ss runes (in fact by that symbolized by the flag of the confederacy even more grievous damage has been done to the USA than by that symbolized by the swastika or the ss runes).
And the flag of slavery, of course.
It is no better than carrying the swastika or the ss runes (in fact by that symbolized by the flag of the confederacy even more grievous damage has been done to the USA than by that symbolized by the swastika or the ss runes).
4
This is a fine article. Tear down the monuments of the Confederacy which celebrate violent opposition to freedom. They are unAmerican.
2
Which country held slaves the longest: the Confederacy or the USA?
The answer, of course, is the USA: the slaves were not freed in Delaware until December 1865. And Delaware was never part of the Confederacy.
The answer, of course, is the USA: the slaves were not freed in Delaware until December 1865. And Delaware was never part of the Confederacy.
2
Remove these monuments. The defenders are hypocrites. Have they forgotten the glee with which Americans celebrated the very public destruction of "monuments" to Saddam Hussain in Iraq? Those too were, inarguably, part of a country's "heritage" and history, albeit a dark history not unlike our legacy of enslaving other human beings.
3
Ms. Cox, symbols are just symbols. They have meaning projected on to them. You incorrectly state that "Confederate monuments stand at the very center of the white-supremacist imagination." Not true. Remember "The Dukes of Hazzard" tv show? The Duke boys (Luke and Bo) rode around in in a hot rod which they nick-named "the General Lee." And, it had a great big southern flag on its roof. Why did CBS air this show for six years? It was wildly popular - Waylon Jennings graced the show with its theme song. The southern flag was seen as an icon of rebellion, not of white supremacy. And, for a nation founded in rebellion, it resonated. Symbols are what you make of them. The left has now suddenly decided that these symbols mean one thing, and one thing only so that they can get on their high horses and decry them. Symbols are what you make them. Don't believe me? Hop on a plane and go to India - you'll see swastikas all over the place.
6
When my glib White friends opine about Blacks wanting special treatment, etc, I asked them this:
Would you like to be Black in America today?
Not a one, man or woman ever says yes.
The point is clear: these statues are subtle, intimidating racism against Blacks. And we all know it. Find another way to memorialize your ancestors.
Would you like to be Black in America today?
Not a one, man or woman ever says yes.
The point is clear: these statues are subtle, intimidating racism against Blacks. And we all know it. Find another way to memorialize your ancestors.
2
There are several statutes of George Washington found around the country. Should we tear them down? After all he was involved in the slaughter of a lot of native Americans and he owned slaves ? Those statutes too are subtle, intimidating, racism against a segments of our population. The Indians are a population arguably more marginalized than black Americans. Where does it stop ?
2
These statues are memorials to men who betrayed the United States.
Traitors plain and simple.
When Lee took up arms against the Union he violated the oath he swore, to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
We have no monuments to Benedict Arnold. We need none to Confederate rebels.
Traitors plain and simple.
When Lee took up arms against the Union he violated the oath he swore, to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
We have no monuments to Benedict Arnold. We need none to Confederate rebels.
3
@James Strange You are wrong. Lee resigned his commission. He made it very clear he was leaving the Union. Unless you are ignorant enough to claim that anyone who has immigrated to this country and has become a citizen is also a traitor to the country they left behind, your claim of traitor and treason is a uninformed.
1
The Confederacy itself is not the core issue here the institution of slavery is. Southern states seceded from the Union in order t protect their right to enslave Africans. The great hero of southern slavery is Thomas Jefferson. It was Jefferson who was the acknowledged leader of the plantation south who insisted that the U.S. Constitution protect slavery. Jefferson "owned" hundreds of slaves. His entire luxurious life and is fortune was dependent on slavery. Unlike Washington and others who at least freed their in their wills upon their death Jefferson in contrast included their sale in his will.
Jefferson fathered 6 slave children by forcing himself on one of his slaves Sally Hemings beginning when she was only 14 and Jefferson did not even free her in his will
The most important monument to slavery is the huge Jefferson Memorial on the Mall in Washington, DC. Its removal should be the #1 priority.
Jefferson fathered 6 slave children by forcing himself on one of his slaves Sally Hemings beginning when she was only 14 and Jefferson did not even free her in his will
The most important monument to slavery is the huge Jefferson Memorial on the Mall in Washington, DC. Its removal should be the #1 priority.
2
Jefferson did not wage war against the United States. That's a pretty big difference.
What ??? Jefferson was as responsible as anyone for SLAVERY being made "legal" in the U.S. Constitution and he was one of the biggest SLAVE "owners in America and became a President who promoted slavery. He also destroyed the ONLY successful slave led rebellion history which took place in Haiti. Jefferson used one of "his" slaves for his sexual pleasure ( today we call it rape ) and used her to produce more slaves for Monticello. Jefferson was worse than Lee !
Then Trump is right. There really is no end to purging. Indeed, Plymouth Rock is a fabrication from the same period. What story does it really tell?
No one is trying to “erase history” since we have books, unless you can’t read where I guess statues are your only lessons besides what you hear, but that doesn’t mean we need to glorify who separated from our country and then lead a battle against the ideals of the United States of America.
2
These are monuments to treason and slavery. The statues, etc., are not history nor memorials to anything of any worth. There is plenty of history otherwise, especially as it has recorded the horrible intent of the Confederacy. When Lee told Gen. Winfield Scott he was going to lead the South, Scott said he was making the biggest mistake of his life. And Scott was a general of the army and a hero of the Mexican War. So much for those supremacists' love of the military! But these people can twist anything into what they believe about control through domination and adherence to authority without any respect for the Constitution Contradictions abound in that adherence, always just to please it, including a slavish (pun intended) obedience to the strong white man while broadcasting individual freedom and liberty. Ugh times a billion.
1
Would Prof. Cox care to comment on the 1939 movie (based on the 1936 book) "Gone With the Wind" ?
2
Congress: Do your duty and impeach this man Trump before our country falls completely apart!
1
Binary thinking, simplistic, arrogant and anti Southern. Few people realize that less than 25% of the families had slaves in the CIvil War and the war had numerous other causes or factors. Some people can't handle thinking about more than one concept at a time. Much of the Southern view is the same local pride that local people have at their high school sports team. Or American exceptionalism. Local pride.
I am not a fan of racism or slavery but high levels of immigration right after WWI led to both new restrictions on the flood of immigrants. In the South, the mass influx of immigrants led to the explosive growth of the KKK, in part.
Some statutes need to be taken down, replaced by statutes of other great Americans/ Southerners, like MLK. The Repub governor in MD has recommended a plan to take down the Annapolis statute of Taney, the famous Supreme Court judge of the Dred Scott case. Good idea, very overdue! But a brush that tars all with one color is a form of bigotry!
I am not a fan of racism or slavery but high levels of immigration right after WWI led to both new restrictions on the flood of immigrants. In the South, the mass influx of immigrants led to the explosive growth of the KKK, in part.
Some statutes need to be taken down, replaced by statutes of other great Americans/ Southerners, like MLK. The Repub governor in MD has recommended a plan to take down the Annapolis statute of Taney, the famous Supreme Court judge of the Dred Scott case. Good idea, very overdue! But a brush that tars all with one color is a form of bigotry!
4
Of course Confederate monuments are symbols of slavery, racism and supposed White Supremacy. I remind you of something else- they are all people who conspired against the United States, engaged in warfare against the United States and killed American Soldiers, Sailors and a Marines.
Why should we honor people who killed members of our Armed Forces- people pledged to defend our country against all enemies. Make no mistake, the Confederates were not shooting water guns at our Army at Gettysburg or Shiloh and they murdered Union POWs at Fort Pillow and elsewhere.
While we are discussing removing monuments, the Federal Government has some house cleaning to do. Fort Bragg, Fort Benning, Fort Hood, Fort Stewart and Fort Campbell are among the bases named for Confederate traitors and should be renamed. These men stood on the wrong side of history in defense of slavery and for division of the American nation.
Why should we honor people who killed members of our Armed Forces- people pledged to defend our country against all enemies. Make no mistake, the Confederates were not shooting water guns at our Army at Gettysburg or Shiloh and they murdered Union POWs at Fort Pillow and elsewhere.
While we are discussing removing monuments, the Federal Government has some house cleaning to do. Fort Bragg, Fort Benning, Fort Hood, Fort Stewart and Fort Campbell are among the bases named for Confederate traitors and should be renamed. These men stood on the wrong side of history in defense of slavery and for division of the American nation.
1
These monuments must be obliterated just like the Colored and Whites Only restroom and drinking fountain signs of yesteryear. It's long overdue. Any doubts about the consequences of the Civil War and the 13th and 14th Amendments should be rectified. Making the point that the champions of involuntary servitude lost due to the unstinting heroism and self-sacrifice of former slaves, Midwest farm boys, and New England mill hands at Gettysburg and elsewhere is NOT rewriting history.
The Confederate statues should be relocated to cemeteries and enscribed with a quote from Proverbs:
"Pride goeth before a fall, and a haughty spirit before destruction."
"Pride goeth before a fall, and a haughty spirit before destruction."
"...Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, and every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day-by-day and minute-by-minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right ...." (Winston Smith to Julia)
George Orwell "1984"
George Orwell "1984"
9
No country should erase its history, if we look at other countries only radical communists had done that, Mao in China, Stalin in Russia, Ceasescu in Romania, etc. No country has a linear positive history. To erase the unpleasant parts is foolish and narrow-minded. But the lack of culture in the alt-left is akin to the lack of a culture of the Russian and Chinese communists who destroyed callously everything that came before them.
3
Removing monuments to traitors is not erasing history. We no longer refer to New Amsterdam (New York), Kings College (Columbia) or Queens College (Rutgers).
AN open-and-shut case: A. Lincoln and the Unionists did not shed rivers of fraternal blood to perpetuate slavery; R. E. Lee and the confederate side did.
1
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/06/the-myth-of-the-kin...
Slavery was that great of a crime, that even over the many years there is a need to punish its adherents, and that includes the Virginians Madison and Jefferson.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
Slavery was that great of a crime, that even over the many years there is a need to punish its adherents, and that includes the Virginians Madison and Jefferson.
Hugh Massengill, Eugene Oregon
Trump was right. The end of this is no heroes left. No Columbus, Madison or Jefferson. And finally Washington.
We will be a country bereft of ideas and heritage. Nothing left of democracy but mob rule, pulling down statues one after another until there's nothing left but poor, uneducated people with no knowledge of how they got there.
We will be a country bereft of ideas and heritage. Nothing left of democracy but mob rule, pulling down statues one after another until there's nothing left but poor, uneducated people with no knowledge of how they got there.
3
"White supremacists aren’t the only defenders of these monuments. President Trump on Tuesday criticized efforts to take them down."
I have news for you. Our president is a fascist and a white supremacist. He even referred to the "alt left charging at us" at his most recent press conference. Let's not differentiate anymore, he identifies with them. He considers himself one of them.
I miss my grandfather (a WW2 veteran) every day but I'm glad he didn't live long enough to see this happen, to see our country come to this.
I have news for you. Our president is a fascist and a white supremacist. He even referred to the "alt left charging at us" at his most recent press conference. Let's not differentiate anymore, he identifies with them. He considers himself one of them.
I miss my grandfather (a WW2 veteran) every day but I'm glad he didn't live long enough to see this happen, to see our country come to this.
If this nation will stand as one, these monuments to the traitors who nearly tore us apart must go.
Professor Cox your argument should be required reading in college. Back in the 1960's my US History teacher taught us that the Civil was was Not fought over slavery; rather it was fought over states rights. Anyone professing slavery as a cause of the Civil War failed the test. No mention was made that the state's were fighting for the right to hold slaves. I was too young then to recognize "spin,"
Another point is that I can't imagine that Germans have statues displayed in public spaces commemorating Hitler, Goering, or Mengele. They are historical figures but they do not deserve to be honored. The Germans I know are ashamed of their brutally racist and violent history. The US needs to repudiate our disgraceful history of slavery and racism. We can start by removing statues honoring political and military leaders who fought for the right to own slaves.
Another point is that I can't imagine that Germans have statues displayed in public spaces commemorating Hitler, Goering, or Mengele. They are historical figures but they do not deserve to be honored. The Germans I know are ashamed of their brutally racist and violent history. The US needs to repudiate our disgraceful history of slavery and racism. We can start by removing statues honoring political and military leaders who fought for the right to own slaves.
1
"Today, the battle for white male supremacy has expanded in scope. It is nativist, anti-feminist and anti-Semitic."
The writer makes a convincing case that Confederate monuments should be taken down. And then sneaks in a little defamation by association of those who oppose or are critical of contemporary feminism.
Low political opportunism.
The writer makes a convincing case that Confederate monuments should be taken down. And then sneaks in a little defamation by association of those who oppose or are critical of contemporary feminism.
Low political opportunism.
I grew up in Alabama. a state where a jury acquitted the man who killed the man who murdered my mother's Catholic pastor because he married two people past the age of consent,
NO, Confederate monuments should stay where they are: they represent part of the US history, love it or leave it! Their removal would be surrender of history to the leftist radical revisionists who want to rewrite it, as has been often done in dictatorial regimes. These revisionists are also those who apply the term "native Americans" to the descendants of the first Asian settlers of North America: grammatically and legally incorrect, all born in the US are "native Usans".
4
Couldn't disagree more. To say the statues only stand for slavery is simply misrepresenting history to fit the progressive agenda.
Judging someone who was born in the early 19th century -- 200 or more years ago -- by today's standards is unfair. Many of the founding fathers owned slaves. Northerners had slaves until the industrial revolution made slaves unprofitable. And many wealthy in the north made money from slavery and cotton.
Almost all the presidents of the US up through Lincoln owned slaves. Lincoln was anti-slavery but did not think much of Blacks.
The architects of the Union victory -- which required the wholesale slaughter of troops, many recent immigrants who had no idea what they were fighting for -- later conducted genocide against the Plains Indians.
Northern railroad barons used slaves -- Chinese coolies. Many of our great companies did business with Nazi Germany, apartheid S. Africa and other villains, strictly for profit. Today companies ship manufacturing to where cheap labor (often forced to live in horrible conditions) exists.
No one holds the moral high ground and to demand tearing down statues isn't unifying, it is divisive. Most southerners weren't slave owners. Most had been and later were again loyal Americans. Their descendants fought in world wars.
The statues stand for courage and sacrifice and many American ideals.
But if we tear down Lee, shouldn't we tear down the Washington monument and Jefferson memorial?
Judging someone who was born in the early 19th century -- 200 or more years ago -- by today's standards is unfair. Many of the founding fathers owned slaves. Northerners had slaves until the industrial revolution made slaves unprofitable. And many wealthy in the north made money from slavery and cotton.
Almost all the presidents of the US up through Lincoln owned slaves. Lincoln was anti-slavery but did not think much of Blacks.
The architects of the Union victory -- which required the wholesale slaughter of troops, many recent immigrants who had no idea what they were fighting for -- later conducted genocide against the Plains Indians.
Northern railroad barons used slaves -- Chinese coolies. Many of our great companies did business with Nazi Germany, apartheid S. Africa and other villains, strictly for profit. Today companies ship manufacturing to where cheap labor (often forced to live in horrible conditions) exists.
No one holds the moral high ground and to demand tearing down statues isn't unifying, it is divisive. Most southerners weren't slave owners. Most had been and later were again loyal Americans. Their descendants fought in world wars.
The statues stand for courage and sacrifice and many American ideals.
But if we tear down Lee, shouldn't we tear down the Washington monument and Jefferson memorial?
5
Terrific and penetrating post.
The issue isn't slavery, its monuments to those who waged a treasonous war against the United States to preserve slavery. Why would we accord these people the greatest public honor?
KK your ignorance of history is astounding. There is nothing in the constitution that says states have to remain in the union once in. The Union of states at that point in time was much looser than what we know today. Many on both sides felt allegiance to their state 1st. People were not the cosmopolitans of today. Many never left the state they were born in. Much of the country was agrarian. People didn't fly from coast to coast and all over. Few made it to Europe.
And you might note how the regiments of both armies were named after the states the soldiers came from. Both sides.
And you might note how the regiments of both armies were named after the states the soldiers came from. Both sides.
2
I grew up in the 60's and 70's and sometimes find it hard to comprehend that so many citizens of or country are neutral or supportive of such profound symbols of hate such as Nazism or slavery. Yet they want us to defeat ISIS. Why? What's the difference? A matter of degree? Fundamentally racism is hate. The 'valuable' human is greater than the 'subhuman' who becomes property. Kind of like the family dog. Loved but property nonetheless. The dog is trained so it can be controlled to serve the master.
World Class does not include these monuments to the confederacy. Neither does "open carry". So, Charlottesville and the University of Virginia do not meet the standard of World Class. Therefore, the Economy suffers. Get rid of these monuments as well as "open carry".
No need to dumb down the USA. Lets move from it can get worse, be grateful, to striving for it can get better, it can get brilliant, it can become World Class. ------ (Please inform the representatives of Charlottesville that have been on the TV News describing their town and their public university as World Class, that they have some work to do in order to meet the World Class standard. If these places met the standard of World Class, then the horrible violent events that happened would never have happened. For example.)
No need to dumb down the USA. Lets move from it can get worse, be grateful, to striving for it can get better, it can get brilliant, it can become World Class. ------ (Please inform the representatives of Charlottesville that have been on the TV News describing their town and their public university as World Class, that they have some work to do in order to meet the World Class standard. If these places met the standard of World Class, then the horrible violent events that happened would never have happened. For example.)
You think the statues are bad,,,,come out west where entire mountains are named after men who lead the way in committing genocide against the Native America people. After reading Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, a person can't help but feel revulsion that these people were honored. Time to rename some mountain peaks as well.
For those who refuse to remove the statues for reasons of "history", I propose that a statue of a proud black family -- man, woman and child -- breaking free from the chains of slavery, be erected alongside any remaining statues to the confederacy. If people are so concerned about "history", then tell the whole story.
110
TN has a similar law to NC prohibiting the removal of statues - like the one of Nathan Bedford Forrest -founder of the KKK - which is in the hall of our State Capitol Building. Our local news station (WKRN) ran a poll yesterday asking "Should Civil War symbols such as statues and building names be removed or preserved?". Over 62% of people said to preserve them. No matter how you slice it, The Civil War was about the Souths desire to maintain slavery (wrapped up in the notion of states rights). The people who fought for the war sought to preserve the institution of slavery. Slavery. A humane, thoughtful, and just society would understand that continuing this type of veneration is morally bankrupt. It's time for these stautes to be relegated to the dust bins of history.
63
Would it be appropriate to remove them to some kind of statue-park, along the lines seen in some post-Soviet states?
The statues could be displayed alongside exhibitions showing the conditions the slaves lived in and how they were treated. It would bring home what these men actually fought for.
The statues could be displayed alongside exhibitions showing the conditions the slaves lived in and how they were treated. It would bring home what these men actually fought for.
It's easy to judge Rufus. Put yourself in the position of a landowner in 1860. You've inherited 50 slaves, they work your land and your social contract is to provide care. You find slavery abhorrent but without slaves you cannot provide livelihood for your family nor your slaves, which in today's dollars represent a market value of appximayely $1.5 m. Without labor or money your livelihood disappears. Abolitionists don't offer compensation for freeing your slaves so you can switch to paid labor. as the owner of slaves you did not create the institution but you're stuck with it. It was easy for those with no financial stake to advocate freeing slaves but very few really sought practical ways to do so giving many in the south a terrible choice.
2
A museum for these statues would be proper and just instead of a dust bin or a public space.
2
I can certainly understand the logic of wanting these monuments removed from a prominent place in a public square. Keeping them there implies that these men and the cause for which they fought are worthy of admiration, and their deeds and philosophies were ideals we should be emulating. Despite any mumbling about tariffs or states' rights, the bottom line is the Confederacy's primary purpose was the preservation of an economic and social system based on slave labor.
On the other hand, I wouldn't object to moving these things to museums or private land. After all, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone wanting to destroy Egyptian pyramids or Aztec ruins. And those were two societies (among many others throughout history) that were also based on slave labor and brutality (including the occasional human sacrifice).
On the other hand, I wouldn't object to moving these things to museums or private land. After all, I don't think I've ever heard of anyone wanting to destroy Egyptian pyramids or Aztec ruins. And those were two societies (among many others throughout history) that were also based on slave labor and brutality (including the occasional human sacrifice).
4
Everyone is equal under the law, but that doesn't make them equal in abilities. Everyone but a blind ideologue knows that Jews and Asians are generally the most intelligent, Hispanics hard-working, African-Americans great athletes, and women more focused on people.
Complaining about sexism and racism has gone on almost my entire lifetime. The reality is there never will be equality of outcomes and that needs to be accepted.
Complaining about sexism and racism has gone on almost my entire lifetime. The reality is there never will be equality of outcomes and that needs to be accepted.
3
Gotta wonder what good it does to pick away at a scab.
The counter-protesters shined a light on a group of several hundred extremists who have until this weekend largely operated in the shadows -- an obscure, darkened environment they richly deserve. The white supremacy movement gained publicity it should have never received, and it is thrilled.
And if tearing down other monuments to the Confederacy becomes morally sanctioned — as Karen Cox does in her lead paragraph, then "activists" she praises can with complete impunity cross the thin line that separates civility from our less-than-circumspect impulses.
These activists "tired of waiting for local leaders to decide" took the law into their own hands. This is a dangerous precedent and precisely the rational that has led to horrendous crimes — lynchings, for one.
It is a modus operandi that melds power, opportunity and moral outrage into a feel-good but ultimately destructive, violent strategy.
Ukrainians had a similar moment when they occupied the presidential palace and overthrew the president. The cost: the Crimea and an undeclared war with its more powerful neighbor.
And let's not forget that the American Revolution was an illegal action — motivated not by tyranny but taxation — a big difference. If the 13 colonies had behaved more like Canada, where would we be now?
That bloody revolution provided a rationale for Southern secession.
Time to put the magnifying glass on George W. and Thomas J.?
The counter-protesters shined a light on a group of several hundred extremists who have until this weekend largely operated in the shadows -- an obscure, darkened environment they richly deserve. The white supremacy movement gained publicity it should have never received, and it is thrilled.
And if tearing down other monuments to the Confederacy becomes morally sanctioned — as Karen Cox does in her lead paragraph, then "activists" she praises can with complete impunity cross the thin line that separates civility from our less-than-circumspect impulses.
These activists "tired of waiting for local leaders to decide" took the law into their own hands. This is a dangerous precedent and precisely the rational that has led to horrendous crimes — lynchings, for one.
It is a modus operandi that melds power, opportunity and moral outrage into a feel-good but ultimately destructive, violent strategy.
Ukrainians had a similar moment when they occupied the presidential palace and overthrew the president. The cost: the Crimea and an undeclared war with its more powerful neighbor.
And let's not forget that the American Revolution was an illegal action — motivated not by tyranny but taxation — a big difference. If the 13 colonies had behaved more like Canada, where would we be now?
That bloody revolution provided a rationale for Southern secession.
Time to put the magnifying glass on George W. and Thomas J.?
4
I'm not so sure about removing statues of R.E. Lee. Yes, he was a slaveholder. Yes, he essentially committed treason. However, he was one of the greatest military leaders this Country has produced. He struggled with his conscience for a long time over whether to join the Confederate cause. When that cause was lost, he surrendered and worked hard to bring about reconciliation.
Then,,there's the incident, after the war, when he alone went to,the Communion rail. Other whites wouldn't go because a black,man was also,at the rail.
So, to me, he presents a very complex picture. If that brands me as "racist", all I,can say is that I'm conflicted about the REL situation.
Then,,there's the incident, after the war, when he alone went to,the Communion rail. Other whites wouldn't go because a black,man was also,at the rail.
So, to me, he presents a very complex picture. If that brands me as "racist", all I,can say is that I'm conflicted about the REL situation.
9
no statues of Hitler in Germany, nor goering, nor Goebbles, etc etc etc
why statues of treasonous folk in USA?
why statues of treasonous folk in USA?
Comparing Lee to those indicates that you know absolutely nothing about the man.
high school student are taught about the Lincoln Douglass debates, but never get a whiff of this speech by Lincoln during the 1858 debate:
"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races — that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
But Lincoln was the Great Emancipator and Lincoln was not an abolitionist and never claimed to be. Lincoln believed in freedom for slaves by gradual, compensated emancipation with colonization. Colonization? Yes, Lincoln hoped all the blacks, once freed, would emigrate to the Indies or to the African Republic of Liberia. Because they weren't fit to live with whites. An affirmation of Lincoln's earlier statement.
So, Ms Fox, do we tear down the memorials of the heroic but flawed Southern leader, and do the same for the leader of the North?.
"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races — that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.
But Lincoln was the Great Emancipator and Lincoln was not an abolitionist and never claimed to be. Lincoln believed in freedom for slaves by gradual, compensated emancipation with colonization. Colonization? Yes, Lincoln hoped all the blacks, once freed, would emigrate to the Indies or to the African Republic of Liberia. Because they weren't fit to live with whites. An affirmation of Lincoln's earlier statement.
So, Ms Fox, do we tear down the memorials of the heroic but flawed Southern leader, and do the same for the leader of the North?.
53
No, because whatever else Lincoln said, what he DID was to preserve the union. HE upheld the constitution against the rebellion.
Lincoln's speech must be understood in its context: his job in that moment was to prevent the dissolution of the United States. The speech was before the war; Lincoln would have avoided the war if he could, and his thinking about slavery and the status of black people evolved over the next few years, once the South seceded.
Yes: the evolution of his thinking absolutely should be taught. But the proper context of the 1858 speech is also the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863, in which he said, unequivocally, that freed slaves were to be citizens of the United States: "I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves [...] henceforward shall be free; [... and] such persons of suitable condition, will be received into the armed service of the United States."
Lincoln used up his entire political capital on the visionary (and pretty unpopular) decision to free the slaves and make them Americans--not gradually, but absolutely and immediately. For that he deserves his many statues and much honor.
So, Mr. Keating, do we tell the whole story, or only the bits we like?
Yes: the evolution of his thinking absolutely should be taught. But the proper context of the 1858 speech is also the Emancipation Proclamation of 1863, in which he said, unequivocally, that freed slaves were to be citizens of the United States: "I do order and declare that all persons held as slaves [...] henceforward shall be free; [... and] such persons of suitable condition, will be received into the armed service of the United States."
Lincoln used up his entire political capital on the visionary (and pretty unpopular) decision to free the slaves and make them Americans--not gradually, but absolutely and immediately. For that he deserves his many statues and much honor.
So, Mr. Keating, do we tell the whole story, or only the bits we like?
3
Lincoln evolved in his thinking the leaders of the "South" retrenched and became more adamant and determined in their wrong headed ideas about white supremacy and slavery.
So the memorials to the leaders of the Union are different than the memorials to the leaders of the Confederacy. This is not a North / South issue it is a Union / Confederacy issue. The Confederate States of America lost the war.
If you want a memorial to Confederate war Dead that doesn't glorify the "Lost Cause" that is fine otherwise you are part of the problem.
So the memorials to the leaders of the Union are different than the memorials to the leaders of the Confederacy. This is not a North / South issue it is a Union / Confederacy issue. The Confederate States of America lost the war.
If you want a memorial to Confederate war Dead that doesn't glorify the "Lost Cause" that is fine otherwise you are part of the problem.
1
Is the removable of a few statutes really worth 3 lives? To me this is an attempt to divide the conservatives and the liberals and it is working. We need to wake up and learn how to work together. Putting Obama in the White house lead to Trump. What will removing these statues result in?
All we do is work against our own best interests. Stop being fools and start to understand the true nature of this country. Try to understand people different from you. The entire world is NOT made up of New York Times readers.
All we do is work against our own best interests. Stop being fools and start to understand the true nature of this country. Try to understand people different from you. The entire world is NOT made up of New York Times readers.
3
Completely disagree, this falls directly into the narrative of the left, constantly on the defensive.
History is not perfect for any country, but for us to try to erase it by simply taking down statues of men connected to that history is blind stupidity.
We are not perfect, no one in this country claims to be, but this is a part of our history, part of what made us us.
What if all the people that lost their homes to bank America eight years ago were bothered by the bank America logo, should they be accommodated and all of those logos be taken down across the country?
There has to be some assemblance of logic strung together before we start making these huge broad strokes. Everything today in this country is based largely on emotion and trying to placate those that we believe, true or not, to you have been taken advantage of.
Many of these arguments go back over 100 years when no one here was around to be subject to it, at what point do we move past this, only then will things get better.
History is not perfect for any country, but for us to try to erase it by simply taking down statues of men connected to that history is blind stupidity.
We are not perfect, no one in this country claims to be, but this is a part of our history, part of what made us us.
What if all the people that lost their homes to bank America eight years ago were bothered by the bank America logo, should they be accommodated and all of those logos be taken down across the country?
There has to be some assemblance of logic strung together before we start making these huge broad strokes. Everything today in this country is based largely on emotion and trying to placate those that we believe, true or not, to you have been taken advantage of.
Many of these arguments go back over 100 years when no one here was around to be subject to it, at what point do we move past this, only then will things get better.
4
I've got an idea. How about we deputize the offended masses and give them some colorful garb to wear, send them out to identify these race radicals, get their names and require them to be reeducated? We can call our workers the "red guard," something catchy like that! Those committed to egalitarianism can safely be trusted to act fairly and peacefully.
I recall the Red Guards destroyed memorials to criminals of China's past. Nothing like that can happen here, though.
I recall the Red Guards destroyed memorials to criminals of China's past. Nothing like that can happen here, though.
3
Or, if they insist in being tribal, let's ship them to Afghanistan, a place they can understand.
We dumped Bin Laden's body in the sea at an undisclosed location. We did it for a reason. That is where these statues belong.
2
Are we going to remove the presidential portraits of George W. Bush because he lied to the country and led us into an unjust war? Are we going to remove the portrait of Harry S. Truman because he used the atomic bomb twice killing hundreds of thousands of men, women and children? Are we going to remove the portrait of LBJ because he lied about the Gulf of Tonkin event leading us again into an unjust war killing over 55,000 American soldiers and even more innocent civilians? And while we are removing his portrait, let's tear down the Vietnam Veterans Memorial because it glorifies war and honours the soldiers ----even though they may have had no choice but to kill and maim people in that part of the country. Let's just erase it from our memory and from history. Etc., etc., etc.
3
I am a very liberal person: for example, I totally support inter-racial and homosexual marriages. I totally condemn everything that has to do with nazism and I am very, very negative to Donald Trump. The US couldn't have found a worse president than him.
Still, I don't think that the confederate statutes should be removed. On the one hand, it gives white supremacists something to rally around, and they are also a manifestation of something that happened in the past. They represent their era, even if I don't agree with what happened then. Rather than tearing them down, erect new statutes of people who have fought for civil rights and the recognition of climate change and the evolution theory.
Still, I don't think that the confederate statutes should be removed. On the one hand, it gives white supremacists something to rally around, and they are also a manifestation of something that happened in the past. They represent their era, even if I don't agree with what happened then. Rather than tearing them down, erect new statutes of people who have fought for civil rights and the recognition of climate change and the evolution theory.
4
It doesn't even make sense to have them up in the first place. The confederate forces stood AGAINST the union at the time, they weren't part of it. It'd be like having a statue of a Japanese bomber plane on display outside Pearl Harbor.
3
It amazes me that this subject is even open for debate in the 21st century. Monuments to confederate leaders are simply tributes to traitors who fought to continue the enslavement of millions of innocent Americans who were owned like livestock.
We may not be able to erase this shame from our past, but to openly celebrate this despicable "heritage" is disgusting and should alarm all decent Americans. Now we have people occupying the White House who share these repugnant views and we are revealing the US to all the world as a pariah state without moral standing.
Where are all the good people of conscience who supposedly populate this country and why are they not rebuking this sham of a President?
We may not be able to erase this shame from our past, but to openly celebrate this despicable "heritage" is disgusting and should alarm all decent Americans. Now we have people occupying the White House who share these repugnant views and we are revealing the US to all the world as a pariah state without moral standing.
Where are all the good people of conscience who supposedly populate this country and why are they not rebuking this sham of a President?
103
You know that he won the votes of 63 million Americans who knew who Donald Trump was.
1
Neither Donald Trump's paternal German grandfather nor maternal Scottish grandparents were in America during the Civil War.
Nor were Mike Pence's Irish grandparents in America during the Civil War.
But both men benefited from their white European privilege heritage in the wake of slavery and Jim Crow through Civil War, Reconstruction and Civil Rights eras..
Nor were Mike Pence's Irish grandparents in America during the Civil War.
But both men benefited from their white European privilege heritage in the wake of slavery and Jim Crow through Civil War, Reconstruction and Civil Rights eras..
1
Jim,
Do you really think Trump and his advisors think that Slavery should
be brought back ?
A Southerner could be against Slavery and still fight for the South
as he could hold the North was violating the Constitution and it was
time to rebel against an oppressive government just like their grandfathers and fathers did against England.
They were not traitors and neither Lincoln, nor Grant nor Sherman
treated them as traitors at the end of the war.
Grant invited Lee to visit him in the White House in 1869.
Do you really think Trump and his advisors think that Slavery should
be brought back ?
A Southerner could be against Slavery and still fight for the South
as he could hold the North was violating the Constitution and it was
time to rebel against an oppressive government just like their grandfathers and fathers did against England.
They were not traitors and neither Lincoln, nor Grant nor Sherman
treated them as traitors at the end of the war.
Grant invited Lee to visit him in the White House in 1869.
1
I have TWO reasons for loathing Confederate monuments. First, as the author eloquently states, they were and are blatant tools of Jim Crow and anti-civil rights racism. Period. Second, they celebrate traitors. All these men sought to destroy the Union, which my ancestors fought to defend and preserve. These statues are a daily insult to their courageous memory. "Lost Cause"? I choose to honor the Just Cause that saved the United States.
4
"Truly patriotic Americans, of all colors and creeds, can and should stand up to them as they did this past weekend."
I agree that the statues should come down, but 'standing up' to hate groups like counter-marchers did in Charlottesville is not a rational course of action as it provides unwanted publicity and needlessly endangers people. People who persist in advocating and engaging in such confrontations end up being complicit in the outcomes. Below are recommendations from the Southern Poverty Law Center, one of the most credible organizations in the country that tracks hate groups.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/1998/avoidin...
…..most Klan rallies end without violence.
https://www.splcenter.org/20170814/ten-ways-fight-hate-community-respons...
Do not attend a hate rally. As much as you might like to physically show your opposition to hate, confrontations serve only the perpetrators. They also burden law enforcement with protecting hatemongers from otherwise law-abiding citizens. If an event featuring a hate group, avowed separatist or extremist is coming to your college campus, hold a unity rally on a different part of campus. Invite campus clubs, sororities, fraternities and athletic organizations to support your efforts.
I agree that the statues should come down, but 'standing up' to hate groups like counter-marchers did in Charlottesville is not a rational course of action as it provides unwanted publicity and needlessly endangers people. People who persist in advocating and engaging in such confrontations end up being complicit in the outcomes. Below are recommendations from the Southern Poverty Law Center, one of the most credible organizations in the country that tracks hate groups.
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/1998/avoidin...
…..most Klan rallies end without violence.
https://www.splcenter.org/20170814/ten-ways-fight-hate-community-respons...
Do not attend a hate rally. As much as you might like to physically show your opposition to hate, confrontations serve only the perpetrators. They also burden law enforcement with protecting hatemongers from otherwise law-abiding citizens. If an event featuring a hate group, avowed separatist or extremist is coming to your college campus, hold a unity rally on a different part of campus. Invite campus clubs, sororities, fraternities and athletic organizations to support your efforts.
I remember a blind beggar who wore a sign, 'Do you thank God that you can see?' Haven't seen any slaves carrying a sign, 'Do you thank God that you are free?' Lincoln freed the slaves, they say. Not his own; as far as I know he didn't have any. Maybe he had some servants. 620,000 people died in that conflict. The war is not over yet; still monuments to come down. There are areas where rebelliousness is better tolerated. Might try erecting monuments to humanity next to these relics, if we could find any.
Well argued, Professor Cox.
However, when you write, 'White supremacists aren’t the only defenders of these monuments. President Trump on Tuesday criticized efforts to take them down', you are giving the President too much credit.
After decades of his very public and very obvious racism, surely all reasonable people can now agree that he is a white supremacist. The time for softer language is past.
However, when you write, 'White supremacists aren’t the only defenders of these monuments. President Trump on Tuesday criticized efforts to take them down', you are giving the President too much credit.
After decades of his very public and very obvious racism, surely all reasonable people can now agree that he is a white supremacist. The time for softer language is past.
2
I prefer that white supremacy fall in America. Confederate monuments are clear consistent reminders that is not imminent nor likely. The symbolism of the Confederate monuments to the past reflect a present reality.
The democratic debate and action or inaction regarding the Confederate monuments is what matters most. If all of the Confederate monuments disappear from public spaces but white supremacist bigotry reigns in the hearts and minds of American men and women then what has been gained?
America was nominally founded on the principle that all men are created equal and naturally endowed with certain unalienable rights including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And the American Founding Fathers malignly originally intended that only white Anglo-Saxon Protestant men from North and West Europe who owned property were persons within the meaning of the initial Constitution and the first 10 Amendments.
Matching American written and verbal rhetoric to living reality is the measure of American hypocrisy.
The democratic debate and action or inaction regarding the Confederate monuments is what matters most. If all of the Confederate monuments disappear from public spaces but white supremacist bigotry reigns in the hearts and minds of American men and women then what has been gained?
America was nominally founded on the principle that all men are created equal and naturally endowed with certain unalienable rights including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. And the American Founding Fathers malignly originally intended that only white Anglo-Saxon Protestant men from North and West Europe who owned property were persons within the meaning of the initial Constitution and the first 10 Amendments.
Matching American written and verbal rhetoric to living reality is the measure of American hypocrisy.
1
I agree with main points of this op-ed; however, throughout the beginning of the piece, the author make reference to "white supremacy." Later, the reference changes to "white male supremacy." I appreciate that the racist marchers in Charlottesville were white males, but please don't let some of our white, female sisters out of the bigot loop. I have experienced many occasions where I have heard some pretty vile racist comments coming from the mouths of white women. Don't forget that the majority (albeit small majority) of white women voted for Trump (as has been reported).
1
Professor Cox proposes getting rid of all Confederate statues and monuments, and many of us agree that having these reminders of slavery and of a group of people who started a war
against America accomplishes nothing positive.
The problem is that, as much as we may wish these symbols gone, the process of destruction and removal will be ugly and will distract the nation and the voters from immediately important issues like the corruption of the Trump presidency and its cozy relationship with the Russian oligarchy.
Let’s focus on getting an extremely dangerous man out of the White House and winning elections in 2018. We then can deal with the statues and with the rabid racists, anti-Semites, gay bashers and misogynists who use the statues as an excuse for recruitment and violence.
against America accomplishes nothing positive.
The problem is that, as much as we may wish these symbols gone, the process of destruction and removal will be ugly and will distract the nation and the voters from immediately important issues like the corruption of the Trump presidency and its cozy relationship with the Russian oligarchy.
Let’s focus on getting an extremely dangerous man out of the White House and winning elections in 2018. We then can deal with the statues and with the rabid racists, anti-Semites, gay bashers and misogynists who use the statues as an excuse for recruitment and violence.
Let us be very clear. The alt-right groups are fully responsible for the destruction of the Civil War symbols and statues. After all, they are the ones who made them their symbols representing their hate, violence, racism and bigotry.
This has never been about revising history.
This has never been about revising history.
1
Lem: The "loss of capital" which you lament represented the liberation of millions of Americans who were held in bondage against their will. Their emancipation was secured not simply by the stroke of Lincoln's pen, but by
the blood sacrifice of thousands, black and white, whom our sixteenth President duly noted at Gettysburg, had given their lives "that the nation might live."
You, and our current President, are in desperate need of a lesson in history and empathy.
the blood sacrifice of thousands, black and white, whom our sixteenth President duly noted at Gettysburg, had given their lives "that the nation might live."
You, and our current President, are in desperate need of a lesson in history and empathy.
One of our freedoms enshrined in the constitution is the right to property. No question slavery was evil but how to end it was the gist of arguments during the years preceding the civil war. Letania let's imagine a proposal was put forth to compensate all victims of slavery by a one time tax on all real estate transactions in former confederate states equal to 50% of a properties value. How do you think people would react? You're in LA, so no cost to cheer it on. But residents of Alabama wouldn't be very pleased. Most recipients of the windfall would think it terrific. And the result might be conflict. Who is the traitor here? Those who contorted our constitution? Those who opposed the plan? Those who exploited the situation for gain?
Do monuments to Sherman celebrate his defeating rebellion or his fight against native Americans where he wanted to wipe out every male over 12?
The genocide committed against Native people's is an inconvenient truth for those seeking purity and hero worship.
Yes, remove these statues to proper place, but there are more that will need review.
The genocide committed against Native people's is an inconvenient truth for those seeking purity and hero worship.
Yes, remove these statues to proper place, but there are more that will need review.
These statues aren't historical evidence about the civil war, they are historical evidence about the opinions of the people who erected them, many decades later, for political reasons. If I put up a statue to Margaret Thatcher tomorrow and someone else wanted to knock it down next week, their action wouldn't erase any of the history of Thatcherism.
You surely don't need to retain a public environment smothered in racist symbolism in order to study the past. What you're honouring by retaining them is not Robert E Lee but the organisations who put up statues to Lee in order to intimidate their political opponents.
You surely don't need to retain a public environment smothered in racist symbolism in order to study the past. What you're honouring by retaining them is not Robert E Lee but the organisations who put up statues to Lee in order to intimidate their political opponents.
Fall they must, as they are embarrassing reminders that the Great American Experiment of peacefully settle disagreement between her constitutional States failed in a bloody civil war.
Let's not forget what the confederates were- they were traitors. So, statues of the traitors' leaders don't belong in public spaces.
I like public statuary, even if they represent people like Robert E. Lee, slave-holder, because they remind us of history and force us to ponder complex questions. Public statuary representing even people like Pol Pot, Hitler, etc. remind us of life lessons that can be difficult to learn and remember. I don't think many people worship at monuments to Jeb Stuart, Napoleon, Patton, et al., nor do I worry that they recruit people to evil causes. They don't somehow justify the life of the person being depicted, they just record it. A world replete with statuary of heroes and villains alike would help focus our minds on the larger questions. A statue of Plato, supposedly a slave-owner, does not remind me of regrettable inequalities, it reminds me of how hard it is to think about the universe and ourselves.
4
The Confederate monuments ARE about history. The only way to stop violence is to stop violence.
3
"White supremacists aren't the only defenders of these monuments. President Trump on Tuesday criticized efforts to take them down." It is time to recognize and say, bluntly and openly, the Donald Trump has stepped across the line and is himself a white supremacist.
These monuments must be moved from places of honor and not be destroyed, but instead be shown in tableaux of context, reminding us of the real reason these artifacts were erected: that slavery is not dead, merely weakened, and now goes by the name of racism, and there are those today who wish for the old ways and the old days.
These monuments must be moved from places of honor and not be destroyed, but instead be shown in tableaux of context, reminding us of the real reason these artifacts were erected: that slavery is not dead, merely weakened, and now goes by the name of racism, and there are those today who wish for the old ways and the old days.
Has the Episcopal National Cathedral made a decision on its Lee window?
1
The Civil War ended in 1865, These monuments should never have been erected, and are 152 years too late from being taken down.
History is written by the winners of the wars. So the Confederate statues should fall. In fact, the war never happened at all.
1
I always thought of these statues as relics of a distant time and place. I did not understand that the same passions that created them also kept them on their pedestals. And I thought it perfectly normal for citizens in Poland or Ukraine to remove statues of Lenin when they regained national sovereignty. I'm surprised to learn that some people continue to regard Robert E. Lee, who fought to preserve slavery and destroy the United States, as a patriot. These statues are beaux-arts monuments, examples of technical expertise. But they memorialize a time when brother fought brother, for the right to literally buy and sell others who were essentially their equals. The President is apparently unable to see the tragedy in this. So, I suggest a deal: one statue of Donald J. Trump to replace each Confederate hero, treated with a state-of-the-art compound that makes it easy to remove red paint and anything else the agonized citizenry can throw at a righteous American Idol. A fever dream! And the perfect location for book burnings to come! ("We've read enough books." -- Jared K.) Also, it might divert funds from the Mexican wall project....
I've been hearing ugly rumors that are circulating around tearing down the Jefferson Memorial in Washington DC. The Lincoln Memorial was recently defaced with a certain four letter word in red paint.
But why stop there? Why don't we tear down the Mt. Rushmore monument for its lack of diversity? George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were white Southern presidents who owned slaves. Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt were white Republican presidents. We can't have that now can we because Roosevelt and Lincoln disrupt "the Republicans are evil" talking points. Why weren't any Democratic presidents honored on Mt Rushmore in the name of fair play? It's time to reassess Mt Rushmore and bring it up to date in the name of political correctness.
But why stop there? Why don't we tear down the Mt. Rushmore monument for its lack of diversity? George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were white Southern presidents who owned slaves. Abraham Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt were white Republican presidents. We can't have that now can we because Roosevelt and Lincoln disrupt "the Republicans are evil" talking points. Why weren't any Democratic presidents honored on Mt Rushmore in the name of fair play? It's time to reassess Mt Rushmore and bring it up to date in the name of political correctness.
1
Why have we held our enemy in such high esteem? What other answer is there? We are a racist nation. No if, ands, or buts. Why were there slaves? Because the American south was an agricultural "nation" that required manual labor which no one wanted to pay for. How different is that of today, where companies, once American, run to foreign lands and pay their workers a fraction of legitimate wages. If American business titians could find a country where slavery was still legal, and manufacturing feasible, they'd be there.
But the joke is on the low waged white supremacist, who today also is a slave of businesses. But their reality is fog bound, and would never admit being also condemned to a life of low wages, anti-Union, and never rising above their limited social and economic status.
But the joke is on the low waged white supremacist, who today also is a slave of businesses. But their reality is fog bound, and would never admit being also condemned to a life of low wages, anti-Union, and never rising above their limited social and economic status.
There is one Confederate statue that I'm going to suggest is not a symbol of white supremacy; rather, it's a symbol of Confederate defeat. It's called 'Appomattox', and it sits in the middle of Washington Street in Old Town, Alexandria, Virginia. The statue is of a common soldier, he's disarmed, and has his bowed in... shame? Regret? Loss?
In the second to last paragraph the author asks, "But at what cost?"
The arguments to remove the statues are well-reasoned, but many Southerners have no issues with the statues and resent seeing history erased.
For these well-meaning actions there will definitely be reactions. Is this the fight you want to pick?
Yes, absolutely suppress the Klan and neo-Nazis.
But you want to prioritize an assault on historic markers of the Confederacy? When many folks can trace ancestors who fought and died in the conflict? A great way to encourage further divisions.
The arguments to remove the statues are well-reasoned, but many Southerners have no issues with the statues and resent seeing history erased.
For these well-meaning actions there will definitely be reactions. Is this the fight you want to pick?
Yes, absolutely suppress the Klan and neo-Nazis.
But you want to prioritize an assault on historic markers of the Confederacy? When many folks can trace ancestors who fought and died in the conflict? A great way to encourage further divisions.
3
Was George Washington a "traitor" to the British ?
Was Washington a domestic terrorist to the Loyalists ?
And yet there is a statue of George Washington in London,
at Trafalgar Square.
Some time from now, one can only hope, American Society will
no longer treat the Homeless as human trash, will no longer deny
Medical care to Americans too poor to pay for it.
Will the children of the future go about America and remove every
statue of every American who failed to live up to their present ideals.
Keep the Statue of Robert E. Lee to remind us that we are no better
than those who came before and that even great leaders can make
tremendous mistakes.
Otherwise why keep Washington/Jefferson/Jackson/Lincoln
on our currency and their statues among us - for all of them could
easily be labeled as 'racists" by today's standards.
Meanwhile, let us put up a statue of John Brown in Washington, D.C.
larger than any other for Frederick Douglass said of John Brown:
His zeal in the cause of my race was far greater than mine — it was as the burning sun to my taper light — mine was bounded by time, his stretched away to the boundless shores of eternity. I could live for the slave, but he could die for him.
and let us declare December 2nd, John Brown day and make it
a National Holiday.
Was Washington a domestic terrorist to the Loyalists ?
And yet there is a statue of George Washington in London,
at Trafalgar Square.
Some time from now, one can only hope, American Society will
no longer treat the Homeless as human trash, will no longer deny
Medical care to Americans too poor to pay for it.
Will the children of the future go about America and remove every
statue of every American who failed to live up to their present ideals.
Keep the Statue of Robert E. Lee to remind us that we are no better
than those who came before and that even great leaders can make
tremendous mistakes.
Otherwise why keep Washington/Jefferson/Jackson/Lincoln
on our currency and their statues among us - for all of them could
easily be labeled as 'racists" by today's standards.
Meanwhile, let us put up a statue of John Brown in Washington, D.C.
larger than any other for Frederick Douglass said of John Brown:
His zeal in the cause of my race was far greater than mine — it was as the burning sun to my taper light — mine was bounded by time, his stretched away to the boundless shores of eternity. I could live for the slave, but he could die for him.
and let us declare December 2nd, John Brown day and make it
a National Holiday.
2
The monuments the monuments to Civil War veterans, or what these New Nazis call heros, were built after reconstruction as a thumb in the eye to anyone who was not sympathetic to southerners. They were designed to tell anyone near, we believe in slavery and white supremacy.
In Richmond, the Lee statue that was mentioned in this article starts a lovely boulevard of homes with a wide park like strip of land between the lanes. The monuments are of Lee and Stonwall Jackson but also Commodore Maury and then a WWll monument. But the last monument is one of Arthur Ash, the great tennis player from Richmond who died from Aides contracted from a blood transfusion. He is surrounded by children and they have books. The lesson of Richmond is to me that yes we can move forward. Ashe is the present and the future, the others the past. We need to remember what aweful things were done in the past so they are not repeated, and then we need trove on to the future and continue to build.
If you move back downtown in Richmond, you will find an old warehouse that has been converted into a Holocost memorial. Another event we need to remember that these Alt Right want to recreate. Never forget and never repeat is what is important today.
In Richmond, the Lee statue that was mentioned in this article starts a lovely boulevard of homes with a wide park like strip of land between the lanes. The monuments are of Lee and Stonwall Jackson but also Commodore Maury and then a WWll monument. But the last monument is one of Arthur Ash, the great tennis player from Richmond who died from Aides contracted from a blood transfusion. He is surrounded by children and they have books. The lesson of Richmond is to me that yes we can move forward. Ashe is the present and the future, the others the past. We need to remember what aweful things were done in the past so they are not repeated, and then we need trove on to the future and continue to build.
If you move back downtown in Richmond, you will find an old warehouse that has been converted into a Holocost memorial. Another event we need to remember that these Alt Right want to recreate. Never forget and never repeat is what is important today.
Tell HBO we dont want any confederate fantasy show either. Its quite literally the last nail in the coffin on the morality of this country.
1
Confederate statues are memorials to traitors.
Robert E. Lee was a West Point graduate who turned traitor and took up arms against the United States.
What other traitors do we memorialize with a monument? Benedict Arnold? The Rosenbergs? Why should such a "monument" even be erected at all?
Robert E. Lee was a West Point graduate who turned traitor and took up arms against the United States.
What other traitors do we memorialize with a monument? Benedict Arnold? The Rosenbergs? Why should such a "monument" even be erected at all?
Everyone knows that to erect a statue to someone is to honor them, to place them literally above the rest of us,, to immortalize them. Statues are not historical reminders, they are monuments.
What are the first things to come down every time a rebel cause is successful against a dictatorial, oppressive regime? The statues to them, of course. The tangible monuments, the visual symbols of the people's supposed admiration, love and respect for the one so depicted and honored. I can see the toppling of those statues in all those city squares around the world in my minds eye.
No, Mr. Trump, they are not just about heritage and history. We can see that in museums and libraries, read about it on the internet. The Confederacy and the Civil War - and the causes for it - will never fade from America's history or memory.
They are monuments to men who would have been hung as traitors under any other President, in any other country - ironically, the very same country they sought to destroy.
At least let us take down these statues and move them in peace, a peace that so many civil war soldiers gave their lives for.
What are the first things to come down every time a rebel cause is successful against a dictatorial, oppressive regime? The statues to them, of course. The tangible monuments, the visual symbols of the people's supposed admiration, love and respect for the one so depicted and honored. I can see the toppling of those statues in all those city squares around the world in my minds eye.
No, Mr. Trump, they are not just about heritage and history. We can see that in museums and libraries, read about it on the internet. The Confederacy and the Civil War - and the causes for it - will never fade from America's history or memory.
They are monuments to men who would have been hung as traitors under any other President, in any other country - ironically, the very same country they sought to destroy.
At least let us take down these statues and move them in peace, a peace that so many civil war soldiers gave their lives for.
117
Lincoln,
who was far wiser than anyone else, during the war,
realised that the South had been punished enough.
Reconciliation was the best course.
The Southerners were not traitors.
The Constitution says nothing about secession.
They were rebels who held the North was misusing the Constitution.
That they were slave holders is repugnant to us now and well should be,
but the Constitution permitted it.
who was far wiser than anyone else, during the war,
realised that the South had been punished enough.
Reconciliation was the best course.
The Southerners were not traitors.
The Constitution says nothing about secession.
They were rebels who held the North was misusing the Constitution.
That they were slave holders is repugnant to us now and well should be,
but the Constitution permitted it.
1
Aushwitz and Dachau still stand as reminders to be vigilant to prevent the worst behavior that humans are capable of. Indeed they are constant reminders to Europe and Germany of who they once were. We should not celebrate achievements of those who fought for an institution that is indefensible. But if we remove the monuments, how can we constantly remind ourselves of the injustice of slavery woven into the founding of America? I would leave them standing each with a new plaque explaining clearly the context of these individuals. To remove will be to forget.
41
Auschwitz and Dachau are actual historical artifacts that serve a a somber monument to the depths of cruelty and evil which man can sink to. Statues and monuments to Confederate generals many of which were erected long after the Civil War are in no way similar. Erecting statues of the generals that fought to keep slavery is equivalent to erecting statues of Nazi generals nowadays to remember the holocaust.
2
But Germany and Poland do not have monuments to Hitler, Mengele, Himmler, et. al. The equivalent in the US would be having an actual plantation with real slave cabins, real whips, chains, and shackles and other implements of torture. The names of Lee,Forest and others who took up arms to face get AGAINST the United States would be displayed along the artifacts above and would be shown to be people who fought to preserve the horrible institution of slavery.Auschwitz and Dachau exist to show the horrors that were unleashed by awful men. We don't honor the men who perpetrated it with statues. Yes, we remember what they did. In the US we need to do a better job of remembering the horrors of slavery, not of honoring those who perpetrated it.
1
I absolutely agree. Out of sight, out of mind.
George H. Thomas general southern fought with north a monument .
Robert E. Lee general southern fought against north many monuments .
Robert E. Lee general southern fought against north many monuments .
The commenters here who favor keeping these monuments up in public are likely not too offended by white supremacy symbols. Their group is not insulted. They can enjoy the 'history and heritage' these statues testify to.
But when a country has endured a bitter civil war, with 600, 000 dead-- a lot for that population at the time---it's a bad idea to have all these memorials for 1 side in so many towns. That would apply to any nation that's had a civil war. But especially in the US these statues idealize the side that contradicts all our values and ideals and which is in fact repugnant.
The South lost, and it was bitter for generations. It's been the most backward part of the US. The South legalized murder by lynching, and blocked voting rights for Blacks in the lifetime of those living now. The idolizers of these statues should simply watch Gone With The Wind over and over.
The best plan is to put all these statues in a museum or two. Give lecture tours explaining their significance and their place in our society. That way, they'd still be preserved, but not out in the open, where people have to pass them every day.
Seeing these statues should be a matter of choice, not something imposed on the public as they go about their daily business. That's reasonable.
But when a country has endured a bitter civil war, with 600, 000 dead-- a lot for that population at the time---it's a bad idea to have all these memorials for 1 side in so many towns. That would apply to any nation that's had a civil war. But especially in the US these statues idealize the side that contradicts all our values and ideals and which is in fact repugnant.
The South lost, and it was bitter for generations. It's been the most backward part of the US. The South legalized murder by lynching, and blocked voting rights for Blacks in the lifetime of those living now. The idolizers of these statues should simply watch Gone With The Wind over and over.
The best plan is to put all these statues in a museum or two. Give lecture tours explaining their significance and their place in our society. That way, they'd still be preserved, but not out in the open, where people have to pass them every day.
Seeing these statues should be a matter of choice, not something imposed on the public as they go about their daily business. That's reasonable.
126
Removing Confederate statues from prominent public squares is not erasing history and their absence will not doom us to repeat history. Want to remind ourselves of the injustice of slavery? Then make visible all of the slave plantations still standing, erect plaques where slave markets stood, build a museum of the history of slavery in the South, develop a park that follows the Underground RR trail from Miss to Canada. Identify slave-related places in the North. We (white Americans) dont need dead white supremacists to remind us of injustice but rather a more authentic telling of the story. Ancestors of the enslaved certainly do not need to be reminded of injustice of slavery since the legacy is felt to the present day.
1
What if keeping these Confederate monument statues in public is the choice of a local or state voting individual or representative majority?
1
This is not directly on point, but I just read the article about Confederate monuments being taken down in Baltimore, which of course is in Maryland. The fate of Confederate monuments in Kentucky and Missouri has recently been debated as well. What do Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri all have in common? They all stayed in the UNION during the Civil War. What the heck are any Confederate monuments doing in any of these states in particular?
There is, in my opinion, at least some room for debate over whether Confederate monuments in former Confederate states should stand or fall. Unfortunate though it was, slavery and rebellion are integral parts of the histories of every former Confederate state, and the treatment of Confederate monuments is an inescapable part of the broader question of how to address that history. But there is NO WAY that any Confederate monument should stand in any Union state. Every Confederate soldier and officer took up arms in rebellion against the Union. That made them traitors to the Union - and makes the mere idea of any Confederate monument standing in any Union state simply incomprehensible to me.
There is, in my opinion, at least some room for debate over whether Confederate monuments in former Confederate states should stand or fall. Unfortunate though it was, slavery and rebellion are integral parts of the histories of every former Confederate state, and the treatment of Confederate monuments is an inescapable part of the broader question of how to address that history. But there is NO WAY that any Confederate monument should stand in any Union state. Every Confederate soldier and officer took up arms in rebellion against the Union. That made them traitors to the Union - and makes the mere idea of any Confederate monument standing in any Union state simply incomprehensible to me.
While visiting in Beaufort, SC, I discovered a monument to Confederate Soldiers on the grounds of (in front of) the Santa Elena History Center (on Bay Street). Mine was an accidental discovery. If there is no registry of such monuments, how can one aim to remove them all? Or, if not removed, to contextualize them all? The truth should be told about the person being honored as a hero.
Most monuments memorialize military action, even ones that were treasonist. Where are the monuments celebrating or honoring the heroism of people who make America great by the sweat of their brow, strength of their hearts, muscle and brains? What about memorials to those who suffered unspeakable violence and subjugation of slavery and annihilation? These are lessons we all need to be reminded of, truth and reconciliation, most fundamentally to insure it never happens again.
I recommend that Americans travel to the memorials being erected to honor those executed by lynching. And consider erecting monuments to the Natives who honored these lands long before the white man came. There seem to be some spaces opening up. These remind us of history that is rarely acknowledged or taught in any depth in school and allows this country to continue to perpetuate inequality and the myths that we are living the fine principles of the founding fathers. Truth is the first step in moving toward a more just and powerful country that acknowledges and values all its citizens.
I recommend that Americans travel to the memorials being erected to honor those executed by lynching. And consider erecting monuments to the Natives who honored these lands long before the white man came. There seem to be some spaces opening up. These remind us of history that is rarely acknowledged or taught in any depth in school and allows this country to continue to perpetuate inequality and the myths that we are living the fine principles of the founding fathers. Truth is the first step in moving toward a more just and powerful country that acknowledges and values all its citizens.
2
Thank you for these kind thoughts Joanne. We can correct the injustice in our world when we act from the heart and honor those who did the same.
April 1865 is one of the most important histories of the closing of the US Civil War. It marked the decisions made by the generals then commanding the last standing armies of any significance to end the war without the south resorting to guerrilla war for the next several decades. The generals were able to achieve this remarkable end to the war because they respected the fighting spirit of the other side and truly wanted the country to heal. The north was generous in its terms of the south surrender by every historical comparison that could be made.
The north's determination to end the spread of slavery was rooted in two fundamental causes. The first was moral. Slavery as practiced in the slave holding states was antithetical to Christian and Enlightenment beliefs. The second was political. The south's ability to leverage the 3/5 rule gave them power in Congress, which was then the driving power to select presidents. Southerners wrapped themselves in a cultural blanket akin to that of the Boers and white South Africans to proclaim their peculiar culture. Southern pride in the Confederacy is no different than the South African whites.
The Confederate statutes are obviously symbolic. They give glory to those who believe in the "lost cause" which at its root was the goal to expand slavery to the western states and to seize more territory in the Caribbean for the purpose of expanding slavery. The rank and file may / not be cognizant of this, but that is reality.
The north's determination to end the spread of slavery was rooted in two fundamental causes. The first was moral. Slavery as practiced in the slave holding states was antithetical to Christian and Enlightenment beliefs. The second was political. The south's ability to leverage the 3/5 rule gave them power in Congress, which was then the driving power to select presidents. Southerners wrapped themselves in a cultural blanket akin to that of the Boers and white South Africans to proclaim their peculiar culture. Southern pride in the Confederacy is no different than the South African whites.
The Confederate statutes are obviously symbolic. They give glory to those who believe in the "lost cause" which at its root was the goal to expand slavery to the western states and to seize more territory in the Caribbean for the purpose of expanding slavery. The rank and file may / not be cognizant of this, but that is reality.
4
Why limit ourselves to tearing down Confederate monuments? No fewer than 12 U.S. Presidents were slave owners, including Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe and even Ulysses S. Grant himself. Why not remove every last one of these monuments to as well, including the Washington Monument and Mount Rushmore?
The problem with symbols (and monuments), of course, is that there is no absolute meaning attached to them and a monument to Washington or Jefferson can alternatively symbolize a salute to the ideals of freedom or perhaps represent the idolization of someone who owned slaves, depending on who is assigning the meaning. Likewise with a statue of Robert E. Lee. If the alt-right and neo-nazis are using the presence of this monument to rally support for their morally bankrupt cause, is that the fault of the monument itself? Or perhaps it's more of a reflection of a poisonous mindset that is not going to go away by simply removing a statue. People get all up in arms about statues so they can feel like they are "taking a stand" against something when actually all they are doing is merely pushing the issue out of sight; a kind of "feel good" stance that does nothing to change people's attitudes or mindsets.
The problem with symbols (and monuments), of course, is that there is no absolute meaning attached to them and a monument to Washington or Jefferson can alternatively symbolize a salute to the ideals of freedom or perhaps represent the idolization of someone who owned slaves, depending on who is assigning the meaning. Likewise with a statue of Robert E. Lee. If the alt-right and neo-nazis are using the presence of this monument to rally support for their morally bankrupt cause, is that the fault of the monument itself? Or perhaps it's more of a reflection of a poisonous mindset that is not going to go away by simply removing a statue. People get all up in arms about statues so they can feel like they are "taking a stand" against something when actually all they are doing is merely pushing the issue out of sight; a kind of "feel good" stance that does nothing to change people's attitudes or mindsets.
80
No. Being pro-active to remove such symbols is meaningful; where I live, drawing a line in the sand (even if mythical) tells everyone where you stand. Now is the time to take a stand, in every way possible.
3
Agree that historical significance of shrine should not reflect a specific ideology, but rather reference tragic events that should never be ignored - good with bad.
1
I guess you didn't understand the term "false equivalency."
2
I grew up thinking that Robert E Lee was somehow a noble person. This I concluded from history books written in the 50s and 60s that whitewashed the Cival War. It was supposedly about state's rights, not slavery.
Now that I have read modern history on Lee, It is obvious by the treatment of the hundreds of slaves he inherited that he was evil, not noble.
Regardless of the disposition of these statues, the true story of what these men did must be told. They are hero's only to those who supported the cause of slavery and racism.
Now that I have read modern history on Lee, It is obvious by the treatment of the hundreds of slaves he inherited that he was evil, not noble.
Regardless of the disposition of these statues, the true story of what these men did must be told. They are hero's only to those who supported the cause of slavery and racism.
4
His WIFE inherited.
Thank you. Just as we don't erect monuments to the religious leaders who burned women at the stake or covered up the sexual abuse of young children by the Catholic Church, we don't need to 'honor' men who led troops to fight against a united nation of free men.
Trump cannot hide who he is. Racist. Loud. Dishonest. Ignorant. Bully. Coward. GOP were his enablers. Mitch and Ryan and the others own him. That they are fighting the Civil war against minorities in a new way, through voter intimidation and gerrymandering and purges, must be acknowledged.
Trump cannot hide who he is. Racist. Loud. Dishonest. Ignorant. Bully. Coward. GOP were his enablers. Mitch and Ryan and the others own him. That they are fighting the Civil war against minorities in a new way, through voter intimidation and gerrymandering and purges, must be acknowledged.
4
This is pretty shoddy logic for a professor of history. Your argument for removing the monuments is that they are assisting the cause of White Supremacy. Seriously? Do you really think removal of Lee statues will discourage white supremacists? Do you also think that removal of MLK statues would kill the civil rights movement?
The symbol of interest to white supremacists was not the statue of Lee, but rather its removal.
The symbol of interest to white supremacists was not the statue of Lee, but rather its removal.
70
After months of public deliberation, the Charlotte town council adopted a reasonable compromise: simply moving the statues intact from the center of town to another park within the city limits. So why did white supremacists come to promote violence against the local residents.
1
Have you thought about why there are no "historical" statutes of Hitler in Germany? Speech and symbols matter, particularly if they are patently offensive to many of us.
1
1. Yes.
2. No.
2. No.
By all means these monuments should be kept as memorials to a dark past, but they should be taken from places of prominence to places that people must visit intentionally--museums--in order to see them. Maybe make Stone Mountain into a grand Confederate (pro-racialized-slavery) sculpture museum and move them there from all over the South?
6
"Panem et circenses" all over again! Some ortho. docs and podiatrist may get the fall-out business from the statue frenzy, but all that kinetic energy would be better put to use cleaning the streets in NYC and helping to spot and remove dangerous trees.
6
I oppose racism of all forms and have been the victim of it myself. But destroying these monuments has a similar logic to ISIS destroying Christian monuments in Mosul. Both groups are trying to chart their vision of a "better" future (ie. racism free America and Islamic caliphate) by destroying these historical monuments and can give their own justifications for doing so. But racism did (and unfortunately still does) exist in the founding of America and the Middle East was the birthplace of Christianity whether or not these monuments exist.
11
well said. We should be even more vigilant, however. I think we, as a people, tend to glorify war. I tend to cringe at any monument to warriors, no matter the cause they fought for. Let us go a step further and remove all glorification of what is man's greatest degradation to man....war.
1
The statues have to be relegated to some place off in a corner, not being "in your face" in parks. But neither should they be destroyed. Then what is the difference between the Taliban destroying Buddhas and us destroying statues?
4
These folks ought to be locked up and charged with some property crime. They are a mob and need to be reined in. Sadly, if this kind of thing continues, they will ensure that the Republicans will continue in power through the midterms because when law and order are threatened, Americans elect Republicans. If they actually thought through what they are doing they would realize that politically, they are shooting themselves in the foot. A little bit of stupid catharsis will ensure more pain for them down the road.
4
While it might be a symbol of white supremacy and hate for some, labeling it as that for all is a generalization. Not all symbols mean the same thing to everybody in the world and by making this generalization, Ms. Cox is labeling anyone who might be questioning this mob mentality of obliterating any sign of the Confederacy as racist haters.
One thing I learned from helping to win marriage equality in Maine is that generalizing anyone as a "hater" will never get him or her to see things your way.
One thing I learned from helping to win marriage equality in Maine is that generalizing anyone as a "hater" will never get him or her to see things your way.
11
Good points.
An idea would be to propose an accompanying edifice, that somehow states the crimes, correct narratives, etc of these men and their cause.
An idea would be to propose an accompanying edifice, that somehow states the crimes, correct narratives, etc of these men and their cause.
How does one learn from past mistakes if there is nothing of reference of it left? The left seems to think that by taking down and destroying relics from the Civil War that will make the ills of the past disappear? Such short sided ideals that in the end amounts to nothing. Take them down because they offend some people. Where does it end?
8
Take down those monuments.
The Civil War needs to end, once and for all.
The Civil War needs to end, once and for all.
2
Slavery. Read about it. Study history, for one thing.
You will learn that this evil has certain universality.
Take the enslavement of Africans, for example.
As Professor Gates of Harvard states in a number of his writings, slavery was practiced in "Black" Africa --- which was not the entire continent before the Bantu expansion --- for centuries before the Europeans showed up.
As for our times, slavery, as such, is till practiced in a number of African and Middle Eastern societies.
Not long ago, the New Yorker published a lengthy item on the difficulties anti-slavery advocates face in Mauratenia where over 100,000 humans are held in slavery. The practice is defended by the country's Islamic authorities who claim, falsely, that Kor'an advocates slavery.
Europeans, as well as Middle Easterners, were deeply involved in the slave trade. But Europeans also were instrumental in ending slavery.
The same thing is true for Americans.
Not that all this makes any difference to NYT readers.
You will learn that this evil has certain universality.
Take the enslavement of Africans, for example.
As Professor Gates of Harvard states in a number of his writings, slavery was practiced in "Black" Africa --- which was not the entire continent before the Bantu expansion --- for centuries before the Europeans showed up.
As for our times, slavery, as such, is till practiced in a number of African and Middle Eastern societies.
Not long ago, the New Yorker published a lengthy item on the difficulties anti-slavery advocates face in Mauratenia where over 100,000 humans are held in slavery. The practice is defended by the country's Islamic authorities who claim, falsely, that Kor'an advocates slavery.
Europeans, as well as Middle Easterners, were deeply involved in the slave trade. But Europeans also were instrumental in ending slavery.
The same thing is true for Americans.
Not that all this makes any difference to NYT readers.
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About removing statues and monuments: Unfortunately, when other Mayors and Governors see the cost of statue removal in Charlottesville, they will likely hesitate to repeat it. The financial and emotional costs will continue in Virginia for a long time..........
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The civil was not fought just by slave owners nor by supporters of slavery only; some were merely defending their homeland. You would have us lump them all together as racists by denigrating the monuments to the war; the exact same treatment that you accuse the " white male privileged" of doing to African Americans. You don't seem to want equality, it appears to us white people that you want us to " switch places" as oppressor and oppressed. Even if you can't accept what the descendants of those who fought for the south derive from these monuments, you have to realize that Wiping out history of injustice will not eradicate it in today's society, it will just perpetrate injustice agains the descendants of the confederates; and perpetuate the cycle.
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Yes, of course, erase history. That's a surefire way of making the past go away and a nation re-comprehend itself and a new edited narrative prevail. What an ignorant and irrational and intellectually offensive outrage, this destruction of art and history and barbaric scrubbing of the public square! Which cultural pariah, what unacceptable chapter topples next? Which tombstone with an incorrect inscription? Safe spaces truly gone insane.
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Sorry, but it is also about history, although you may not like the past; and about not being the victors who erase all memory of the past, with its faults and its virtues. Slavery was evil and wrong, yet we honor slave owners with monuments on the national mall. From all accounts, Robert E. Lee fought not for slavery, but for his homeland. Is his fault not tempered with a virtue? Must liberals be the fanatics who scrub all evidence of other times and other beliefs from existence?
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Unfortunately I do not think we and especially the south has ever faced up to the rascist violent past this nation has. The best analogy may be Germany which I do not think have monuments of Hitler & Co sprinkled around the country. The civil war monuments can be placed in museums to make us remember just like Germany has done - a very awful part of our history.
I do not see any difference between confederate flags, monuments & swastika's - same symbol of hate!
I do not see any difference between confederate flags, monuments & swastika's - same symbol of hate!
Can someone please do an Op-Ed to the NYT explaining what southern heritage is? Why the south's heritage is so important it deserves monuments and its own flag? Why that flag is flown up north as well, by people not from the south? And explain why those with a Southern heritage so desperately need to shove it in the rest of our faces.
Maybe I'm just jealous I don't have a flag for my northern heritage. That's fine. I'm happy with Ole Glory.
Maybe I'm just jealous I don't have a flag for my northern heritage. That's fine. I'm happy with Ole Glory.
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Maybe a compromise could be reached on monuments to the country's historical past. Ugly compromises with slavery enabled the Constitution itself to be ratified. Washington was not opposed to slavery although I beievehe "gave" his slaves to his wife after the war. I think he recognized the immorality but did not want to impoverish his family or estate by giving away such valuable "property". Jefferson and other Southern leaders felt that way. Even Lincoln was known to have accepted Southern right to maintain slavery before the war. He drew the line at secession. So go ahead and take down the statues of Washington, Jefferson, et. al. Put their portraits up in a less heroic setting though. Will that motivate the alt-right to cease and desist their falsely motivated riots and murderous attacks on the rest of us? Will they accept the idea of compromise for the good of the country and lay down their weapons? No, not unless forced back into the shadows again by the federal government. Show some patriotism GOP Congress. Now or never?
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Statues of Confederate "heroes" could be viewed as historical monuments if not for the adolescent adoration of racist ideology. Much like the scolding parent, the adults in the room must remove the objects of conflict and place the offenders in "time out".
Unfortunately, some will never mature, continuing to blame the most vulnerable for their own personal failures.
Unfortunately, some will never mature, continuing to blame the most vulnerable for their own personal failures.
Lee was a traitor. So was Washington. Washington won; Lee lost. The winning side gets to put up statues, not the losing side.
We should not forget the history of slavery; which is why
A) statues that honor defenders of slavery are wrong-headed. (In fact, we ought to erect statues in honor of the slaves themselves.)
B) history books should be written by historians who seek truth.
We should not forget the history of slavery; which is why
A) statues that honor defenders of slavery are wrong-headed. (In fact, we ought to erect statues in honor of the slaves themselves.)
B) history books should be written by historians who seek truth.
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Just because you believe it, doesn't make it so.
Great! When we're finished stripping our country of its historical truths, we can fly to Europe and trample everything there in public spaces that helps tell the story--the whole story--of our often dark existence. All photographs of them should be deleted from people's social media, too--the ones that are prominently displayed as of people's historical and cultural literacy! When the jobs done, we should move on to the school and universities who have allowed this nation to become some foolish.
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Somebody's missing a great opportunity here. But up and gather up all these monuments and open up a theme park.
Typo- 'buy' not 'but' I hate when I do dat.
You don't build monuments to traitors.
By any measure: legal, moral, military and more, Rober E. Lee, Jefferson Davis etc. were traitors.
You might as well have a monument to Benedict Arnold (and remember, he won the Battle of Saratoga for the patriots, one of the key battles of the Revolutionary War).
By any measure: legal, moral, military and more, Rober E. Lee, Jefferson Davis etc. were traitors.
You might as well have a monument to Benedict Arnold (and remember, he won the Battle of Saratoga for the patriots, one of the key battles of the Revolutionary War).
1
In the 1920s and 30s, Adolph Hitler held up the US as the society he most wanted to emulate in Germany. It was the most successful and effective at dividing the races and keeping the "inferiors" in their place. For the Nazis, some American racial laws, such as the requirement that anyone with "a drop" of African blood be designated "black" were even too harsh. It is worth remembering this time when the US, as a whole, was an inspiration to Nazism.
These statues evoke that past. I am one of those people who feels that it would be better to change the context in which these statues are viewed, to alter how they are presented rather than taking them down. Taking them down and erasing them from public view also eliminates the need for Americans to learn about and learn from their violent and racist past. It stifles the opportunity for Americans to do more than simply mindlessly valorize their past while remaining absolutely oblivious to its complex currents. I still feel this way. But I cannot deny Dr. Cox's point: these statues also serve as a rallying point for those who would return to that violent, racist past. Maybe the US is simply not advanced enough, as a society, to view its history in complex terms. It certainly seems that a battle over race that should have been over long ago is as volatile today as ever. Under such conditions, providing rallying points for racists may simply be too dangerous.
These statues evoke that past. I am one of those people who feels that it would be better to change the context in which these statues are viewed, to alter how they are presented rather than taking them down. Taking them down and erasing them from public view also eliminates the need for Americans to learn about and learn from their violent and racist past. It stifles the opportunity for Americans to do more than simply mindlessly valorize their past while remaining absolutely oblivious to its complex currents. I still feel this way. But I cannot deny Dr. Cox's point: these statues also serve as a rallying point for those who would return to that violent, racist past. Maybe the US is simply not advanced enough, as a society, to view its history in complex terms. It certainly seems that a battle over race that should have been over long ago is as volatile today as ever. Under such conditions, providing rallying points for racists may simply be too dangerous.
It would be good if more people read “April 1865: The Month That Saved America” by Jay Winik. The book focused on the last months of the war, the assassination of President Lincoln, and what could have been had leaders both North and South had not decided that peace was better than continuing the war. Think Bosnia, the Middle East...
In 1860, Southerners were Americans. In 1861 they became Confederates, in full rebellion against the United States. In 1865 they were pardoned upon taking the Oath of Allegiance and became Americans again. That was the DEAL to end the war. Monuments went up after the war both North and South for reasons having to do with healing and remembering the dead. Many former Confederates later served the U.S. in uniform, as did their sons, grandsons, etc. The South in known for providing troops to the American military. I served in Vietnam, in a dishonorable war. Does anyone propose to tear down the Vietnam Wall in DC?
The Democratic Party has done a lot of stupid and unjust things in the past decades, like supporting Wall Street above the interests of the Middle and Working Classes. Do they now want to refight the Civil War and start using the word "traitor" to any American once associated with the lost war? The war ended 150 years ago, and not a day too soon. Officially demonizing the South would be the dead knell of the Democratic Party. And what about the slave holders in the North? Be careful.
In 1860, Southerners were Americans. In 1861 they became Confederates, in full rebellion against the United States. In 1865 they were pardoned upon taking the Oath of Allegiance and became Americans again. That was the DEAL to end the war. Monuments went up after the war both North and South for reasons having to do with healing and remembering the dead. Many former Confederates later served the U.S. in uniform, as did their sons, grandsons, etc. The South in known for providing troops to the American military. I served in Vietnam, in a dishonorable war. Does anyone propose to tear down the Vietnam Wall in DC?
The Democratic Party has done a lot of stupid and unjust things in the past decades, like supporting Wall Street above the interests of the Middle and Working Classes. Do they now want to refight the Civil War and start using the word "traitor" to any American once associated with the lost war? The war ended 150 years ago, and not a day too soon. Officially demonizing the South would be the dead knell of the Democratic Party. And what about the slave holders in the North? Be careful.
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