I no longer discuss politics with my parents and I block posts on Facebook that makes the blood boil. It's not worth the turmoil or becoming angry with people I love. I'd suggest the same to these college kids.
2
Our kids were having political debates with us as early as late junior high. I'm proud that their dad and I raised them to be socially and politically aware, and their viewpoints often teach us "old dogs" new tricks, just as our experiences of growing up in the '60s and '70s often temper their outlooks and understanding of events of today. (Watergate has been a hot topic of late.)
Yes, we've had discussions that end with no agreement, but there is always respect for each other's views, and we agree they are honestly held. Too bad this kind of debate can't happen in the public square.
Yes, we've had discussions that end with no agreement, but there is always respect for each other's views, and we agree they are honestly held. Too bad this kind of debate can't happen in the public square.
Newsflash for the Snowflakes: You aren't that special. Every child of your age, whether they set off to college or begin a job, starts to think they know better than their parents. There's a wide body of literature on this as old as time but to fit your very short attention span, refer to Will Smith's ancient (1988) song "Parents Just Don't Understand." Your time atop the mountain of self-centeredness will end soon, so gather ye microaggressions while ye may.
6
In households across the country, parents sending their children off to college presents many fears. Separation anxiety on both sides is a starting point. There is also a parent's fear that once their progeny are unleashed onto the world, havoc will reign. But there is one particular underlying horror which afflicts parents of a conservative bent, and that is probably their greatest. They fear that their children will return to them "brainwashed" by the liberalism which pervades most campuses. Although they have nothing to fear but fear itself, the fact that that pronouncement was spoke by FDR, in their eyes the father of modern day socialism in the United States, send shivers up their spines. It is true that our most prestigious universities, in particular the Ivy League in the Northeast, and the West Coast, especially California's cool schools, are renown for their liberal ways. For ultra-Conservative parents, this presents a dilemma. They know the value and reputation of these schools, yet they are conflicted. A cognitive dissonance ensues. What to do? They ponder. Do I take the chance? Do I place enough faith in my child's ability to be a critical thinker, to absorbed and evaluate all incoming theories, or do I fear that by sending my child off to one of these institutions will forever scar them with a red "L" on their foreheads? Parents that do not trust their children to make wise decisions in life have a much greater burden to bear.
DD
Manhattan
DD
Manhattan
My daughters-- one a recent college graduate, the other a rising sophomore-- have passionately engaged in just about all of the expected wedge issues of the day. I am proud that they are so. We agree on some things. Sometimes we do not. Our disputes begin when I take issue with how they argue. I call them on their ad hominem attacks, Twitter-ready sloganeering, cheeky bon mots in the style of John Stewart and Bill Maher, and breezy generalizations. I insist on evidence-based arguments with solid evidence and defensible assumptions. (I think I am making progress. One of them called me on a generalization just last week.) I am sure their professors would agree that the job of a university is to teach kids not what to believe but how to think.
3
This story is a few months too late. Kids are already heading back to school and campus. Plus, didn't this happen in the '60s? and '70s? Weren't entire episodes of All in the Family about this?
5
See it all the time in the rural Midwest. Kid is indoctrinated with a steady diet of conservatism from birth, only sees fox news and goes away to school. Kid sees moderates, liberals and learns there are a wide range of thought and starts thinking for themselves. Conservatives claim liberalism on campus but the reality is everything looks liberal to a conservative.
13
It's interesting that there is a total lack of free thought among the College Students in this article. While I applaud the discussion, god knows my parents and I disagreed constantly during my 20's about a whole list of political and social issues, it seems to me that these young people, who really have little idea yet what the scope of the "real" world is, could be more open minded about issues instead of falling into a concrete positions at such a young age.
4
Where are the fathers?
8
Yeah, exactly what I was thinking. Could you imagine the NYT doing such an article without mothers?
6
Is Callie (or, maybe, "Callie") a male or female? That's one of the annoying things about the political correctness surrounding the transgender issue...I never know whether somebody is a boy who "feels like" a girl, a girl who "feels like" a boy, or something in-between.
5
I had a good laugh at Callie's condescending sop to her mother ("I understand them being older and not quite understanding . . ."). I wonder if Lynn has asked her daughter about ageism.
12
Also, the reason that Lady is seeing less and less butch lesbians is BECAUSE many butch lesbians were actually transgender men in the past.
Im going on a date with a transgender man this weekend. Im so grateful that he is comfortable enough to express his true self. Ive met many butch lesbians who are older and say they would have been transgender men if they could have.
Ive also met many gay men who say that they would have been transgender women if they could have.
I am a transgender woman, and in the past I may have oppressed myself, lived secretly, or tried to live as a gay man. Today though, I can be a queer pansexual transgender woman. I can say that I dont want SRS, that I love my transness, and that transgender people are more beautiful to me than cis people. I can also say I dont care that you are mad about being called cis, if there is a trans then there is a cis.
There is a generational gap. I feel like I have very little in common with older transwomen like Catlyn Jenner. Older transgender women and men seem to be obsessed with pretending they are cisgender. Meanwhile, younger transgender people like me celebrate the fact that we are transgender. I think that may be behind why so many lesbians hate transgender women. They see as as men trying to take their mantle, when really people my age are done trying to be cisgender and dont want to participate in cisgender stereotypes and sexism.
Im going on a date with a transgender man this weekend. Im so grateful that he is comfortable enough to express his true self. Ive met many butch lesbians who are older and say they would have been transgender men if they could have.
Ive also met many gay men who say that they would have been transgender women if they could have.
I am a transgender woman, and in the past I may have oppressed myself, lived secretly, or tried to live as a gay man. Today though, I can be a queer pansexual transgender woman. I can say that I dont want SRS, that I love my transness, and that transgender people are more beautiful to me than cis people. I can also say I dont care that you are mad about being called cis, if there is a trans then there is a cis.
There is a generational gap. I feel like I have very little in common with older transwomen like Catlyn Jenner. Older transgender women and men seem to be obsessed with pretending they are cisgender. Meanwhile, younger transgender people like me celebrate the fact that we are transgender. I think that may be behind why so many lesbians hate transgender women. They see as as men trying to take their mantle, when really people my age are done trying to be cisgender and dont want to participate in cisgender stereotypes and sexism.
3
Engaging in constant tribalism signifies the antithesis of Liberalism.
7
It's easy to be liberal when you don't have any responsibility, have even less life experience, aren't being crushed by taxes and no one has set you straight.
9
To all the persons mentioned in this article: 1) sit down and mentally make yourself argue for the views you disagree with. Only by understanding the rational arguments of the other can bring you to a greater appreciation of your own point of view (and possibly give your point of view greater nuance). 2) base your arguments in facts, not here say, and whilst you are thinking local, remember that many of the issues and problems discussed in the USA are also bones of contention in other nations; how do other societies resolve these issues in the real world? And, do we have anything to learn from them. 3) for the younger persons, remember what Voltere / Churchill once said: "he who is not liberal at 18 is heartless; he who is not conservative by 38 is brainless."
Though as for myself, I've moved further to the left the older I've become.
Though as for myself, I've moved further to the left the older I've become.
I've never understood how liberals can demand that "right-to-lifers" not impose their beliefs on others (I.e., "If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one") yet insist on imposing THEIR beliefs (excessive taxation, an alphabet soup of bureaucracy controlling our lives and protecting us from ourselves, etc.) on the whole of the USA. If you want "free" healthcare for the indigent, create a fund it campaign. If you want anyone who wants to go to college to be able to without financial restraints, donate to your Alma Mater. If you think McDonald's workers should be paid $15, push the company to add a feature to its app that allows customers to voluntarily pay triple the price for their combo. But keep my wallet out of it.
10
Wow. Where to start. People who live in a community whether it is 300 or 300 million strong need rules to prevent chaos. Each country in the world has selected some form of government or has had one selected for it. In the US we do not practice direct democracy where each person's vote counts the same. Rather we chose to have a representative democracy which gave certain governmental powers to the "federal" government where each state has two equal votes in the Senate and each state has votes in the House dependent on the states' population. At the federal level we elect people to represent us and to vote on our behalf to make the laws we all agree to live by. Usually a majority is required for a law to be enacted, but in many cases, more than a majority may be required. Certain laws are enacted at the state level which must be constitutional under the state and federal constitutions. Other "laws" or ordinances can be done at the county or town level as the state determines. Again, we elect people to represent us (except in town meetings) and agree to their decisions.
So we all agree to pay taxes for things we may not like, to follow labor laws we may not like, to follow commerce laws we may not like. Our only appeal is our vote for a representative or to live elsewhere.
Morality laws are hard due to the "religion" clause in the US Constitution. Asking all people to follow a law based on one religion should not be allowed. Keep your religion away from my body.
So we all agree to pay taxes for things we may not like, to follow labor laws we may not like, to follow commerce laws we may not like. Our only appeal is our vote for a representative or to live elsewhere.
Morality laws are hard due to the "religion" clause in the US Constitution. Asking all people to follow a law based on one religion should not be allowed. Keep your religion away from my body.
2
Vote for reality TV and you get it from trump to fox reporting. Propaganda the swaying of the vote; its all happened before. The goal for higher education is to provide critical thinkers to be able to separate the wheat from the chafe for the foundation of a functioning society that values health, education and peace anything less is ignorant.
1
Outlying Alex Keaton perspective more unique; Times could have found more than one example.
2
So many of these conversations dwell on hot button issues which are, at the end of the day, pretty superficial. The real meat which we neglect all the time in the majority of public discourse- which models for us how to debate privately- is in underlying philosophy & how it has been implemented, developed and tested throughout human history. For example, where did anti-abortion ideas come from in the first place, what is life like for women without abortion options, what are the power struggles between the sexes etc etc etc. "Is abortion moral?" is in a lot of ways just the tip of the iceberg and not answerable without history and context which we, as the American collective, seem to be sorely lacking.
5
Abortion is a human choice, not a natural default. The issue has become so over-politicized that any historical context is now completely mangled by religious and postmodernist zealots on both sides of the argument - both playing on people's emotional and tribal preferences.
2
Maybe "abortion rights" epitomizes the natural Hitlerian outgrowth of murderous dystopian Eugenicism.
No accident when discussing Hitler's victims; the slaughtered disabled are always recognized last, an outcast afterthought.
No accident when discussing Hitler's victims; the slaughtered disabled are always recognized last, an outcast afterthought.
2
My own daughter came home from an expensive northern university in May telling me I was a White Supremacist (we are Hispanic) and that I am an oppressor because I voted for Trump.
As a single mother, I worked two jobs for most of the time she was growing up in order to pay the tuition for the Catholic schools she attended. More recently, I had been working extra hours in my current position in order to help her cover tuition and living expenses.
No more. I am helping her deal with her "white privilege" by giving her the opportunity to pay her tuition and expenses on her own for the remainder of her time at university.
Instead, I plan to finance my nephew's Computer Science studies at an inexpensive local college, and I am "educating myself" by taking an evening course there as well.
As a single mother, I worked two jobs for most of the time she was growing up in order to pay the tuition for the Catholic schools she attended. More recently, I had been working extra hours in my current position in order to help her cover tuition and living expenses.
No more. I am helping her deal with her "white privilege" by giving her the opportunity to pay her tuition and expenses on her own for the remainder of her time at university.
Instead, I plan to finance my nephew's Computer Science studies at an inexpensive local college, and I am "educating myself" by taking an evening course there as well.
19
Outstanding!!!
9
I'd expect children to disagree with their parents on politics. If they didn't things would never change.
9
"I met a girl who had Christian ideas, which made me start asking questions. She is now my girlfriend. Now abortion is very important to me"
Yeah, that explains a lot of "grass roots" thought.
Yeah, that explains a lot of "grass roots" thought.
6
We'll see if his deeply-held convictions bend a bit if he gets the girlfriend pregnant.
6
"Christianity" is united in fighting against abortion. Christ is not with you on that.
1
Parents and students, call a truce. Young people are like nestlings whose feathers have come in but whose muscles have not yet strengthened enough to fly the nest. Just remember real wisdom will come in when they are off campus and in the world of career and life. There are no "trigger warnings" there. Your feelings will be hurt and your orthodoxies, left or right, challenged.
Lynn, stay a proud lesbian mom and woman. You don't need to acquiesce to the latest gender studies meme on campus. Your daughter's thinking, well intended though it is, is unscientific. We have chromosomes and DNA and we are mammals of a higher order of primates. Science and the natural world tell us sexual differences have existed throughout evolution in the higher class of life on earth. Gender is not an opinion.
The newly minted conservative Catholic youth and liberal mother combo just need time. He has the zealotry of a convert, and that is to be expected. Why bother to convert if you are wishy-washy? But give him time and he will revert to something closer to a cradle Catholic, where the rules are exalted goals for saints but the real world is populated by mere mortals, where the issues have nuance and complexity.
Lynn, stay a proud lesbian mom and woman. You don't need to acquiesce to the latest gender studies meme on campus. Your daughter's thinking, well intended though it is, is unscientific. We have chromosomes and DNA and we are mammals of a higher order of primates. Science and the natural world tell us sexual differences have existed throughout evolution in the higher class of life on earth. Gender is not an opinion.
The newly minted conservative Catholic youth and liberal mother combo just need time. He has the zealotry of a convert, and that is to be expected. Why bother to convert if you are wishy-washy? But give him time and he will revert to something closer to a cradle Catholic, where the rules are exalted goals for saints but the real world is populated by mere mortals, where the issues have nuance and complexity.
7
Yeah this mirrors my experience. My family is completely destroyed though. My Dad and my stepmom voted for Trump, and my Mom voted for Hillary. All my brothers and sisters voted for Hillary except me. I voted for Jill Stein.
My brother started arguing with my Dad in November, and it quickly escalated to the point where my brother refused to talk to my Dad, called him a bigot (even though Im a queer transgender woman and hes gay and my Dad loves us), and essentially slandered him all over social media. My Mom backed him up, and my family chose sides. All my brothers and sisters have sided with my Mom and my brother. I sided with my Dad.
I may be a super liberal, but politics is crap. Politics are all just lies. Politics should never destroy a family.
But it did....and it was the liberals in my family that did it. My brother basically told my Dad to agree with whatever my brother believed or else. Thats not right. In my opinion, thats bigoted and wrong. Then the name calling and isms started. Then my family fell apart.
What a horrible waste. My family is dead. We wont be getting back together. My Dad is going to forget about us and start a new family with my stepmom, and the little family I grew up with will be dead and broken forever. All for politics. All for nothing.
My brother started arguing with my Dad in November, and it quickly escalated to the point where my brother refused to talk to my Dad, called him a bigot (even though Im a queer transgender woman and hes gay and my Dad loves us), and essentially slandered him all over social media. My Mom backed him up, and my family chose sides. All my brothers and sisters have sided with my Mom and my brother. I sided with my Dad.
I may be a super liberal, but politics is crap. Politics are all just lies. Politics should never destroy a family.
But it did....and it was the liberals in my family that did it. My brother basically told my Dad to agree with whatever my brother believed or else. Thats not right. In my opinion, thats bigoted and wrong. Then the name calling and isms started. Then my family fell apart.
What a horrible waste. My family is dead. We wont be getting back together. My Dad is going to forget about us and start a new family with my stepmom, and the little family I grew up with will be dead and broken forever. All for politics. All for nothing.
13
You're not so "super liberal" regarding the undocumented.
2
I beg to disagree, but this was not for nothing. It provided an opportunity for your family members to reveal who they are. If you cannot abide by the views of the male who impregnated your mother, he is probably best left a footnote in your experience..
1
She's fiscally conservative and all about personal responsibility and she voted for the guy with six bankruptcies who never takes responsibility for anything? That's a laugh riot.
16
Sometimes as a young adult you have to learn to pick your battles. I remember coming home from college a very angry black female enraged by injustice and telling my mother how wrong and racist the internment of the Japanese was. We argued and argued and then my mother began to cry. Through her tears she told me that my uncle, her oldest brother, had died fighting the Japanese during the war. I realized in her mind the treatment of the Japanese was how she justified the death of her beloved brother and many other people she knew at the time. Her tears made me feel so very small.
Reading these encounters brought back that memory and the hurt I caused my mother because I said some things I could never take back. Pick your battles young people...
Reading these encounters brought back that memory and the hurt I caused my mother because I said some things I could never take back. Pick your battles young people...
10
What a wonderful article! Especially the gay moms and the (maybe?) trans daughter!
Reminds me of our son. He's 48 now, we're in our 70's and politically we're on the same page.
But 30 years ago, he castigated us for moving into a nice house in an upscale neighborhood. He pretty much told us we'd "sold out" - but here's the thing. We were out and he was home one evening. He went outdoors on the porch, dressed like a hippy (long hair, etc.) then went back inside. Pretty soon the doorbell rang. It was the Police! Some neighbor had called the cops! Thinking we were being robbed. Fortunately, he was able to convince them he was our son. (And I think he was pretty impressed that the neighbors were so watchful and protective.)
Actually, Even then I could recall - being in college - vowing never to live in such a neighborhood, a "cookie-cutter" type, really nice House, etc. But there I was! I had "sold out!"
Now, mind you, I never did stop caring about the less fortunate and so on. Dem through and through, from about age 16. And forever battling my own dad, who was a lifelong Republican and had never forgiven FDR from taking social security out of his paychecks - even though he lived to a ripe old age of nearly 97, collecting all those years of social security!
Life is amazing and amusing.
Reminds me of our son. He's 48 now, we're in our 70's and politically we're on the same page.
But 30 years ago, he castigated us for moving into a nice house in an upscale neighborhood. He pretty much told us we'd "sold out" - but here's the thing. We were out and he was home one evening. He went outdoors on the porch, dressed like a hippy (long hair, etc.) then went back inside. Pretty soon the doorbell rang. It was the Police! Some neighbor had called the cops! Thinking we were being robbed. Fortunately, he was able to convince them he was our son. (And I think he was pretty impressed that the neighbors were so watchful and protective.)
Actually, Even then I could recall - being in college - vowing never to live in such a neighborhood, a "cookie-cutter" type, really nice House, etc. But there I was! I had "sold out!"
Now, mind you, I never did stop caring about the less fortunate and so on. Dem through and through, from about age 16. And forever battling my own dad, who was a lifelong Republican and had never forgiven FDR from taking social security out of his paychecks - even though he lived to a ripe old age of nearly 97, collecting all those years of social security!
Life is amazing and amusing.
4
You just described one of the arrogant liberalisms of uninformed youth. It isn't selling out to enjoy that which you have earned. And it isn't racism or classism or bigotry to claim it for yourself and refuse it to those who haven't earned it. Locally, ACORN and then its successor have claimed racism when the financially well off, exclusive neighborhood of Garden City doesn't have many apartments (affordable or otherwise) and the real estate listings start at over $600,000 for a fixer upper. Hey, I'm white and I don't belong in GC simply because I can't afford it and I don't blame those who can from wanting to be surrounded by other executives, business owners, and professionals. Why would you spend a small fortune on a worthwhile college degree (fur example, business, not art history) and achieve career success only to live next door to an (my neighbors) Uber driver, Sears Auto mechanic, warehouse security supervisor, Lowe's storm door installer or office cleaner?
4
Well of course the kids know better - they've been in college for a year. What have their parents ever done with their lives?
Went to college themselves, got jobs, educated their children, raised them, provided a stable home, enabled them to attend a college costing hundreds of thousands of dollars?
Puh-lease, like that's meaninful or difficult?
Went to college themselves, got jobs, educated their children, raised them, provided a stable home, enabled them to attend a college costing hundreds of thousands of dollars?
Puh-lease, like that's meaninful or difficult?
10
Nicholas Duffee: I strongly suggest doing several things--
1) read "Death without Weeping" by nancy Scheper hughes (to see how attachment to children is a fairly modern, fairly privileged thing and that attachment to a tiny group of cells is even more a matter of privilege; it's just an interesting look at history)
2) acquaint yourself with the 3,999 other "gods" out there and their associated mythologies (to see how your current-chosen mythology fits into the larger scheme of things)
3) take a year away from your girlfriend and your current society and live in a place that has a lot (a lot a lot a lot) of people, like Shanghai or Mumbai. Go work in the slums there or in orphanages.
4) as happened again as recelty as last week, the next time a 10 year old is impregnated by their uncle or stepfather and the girl has to ask permission of the government to get an abortion (delivering the child will harm her for life as her body is too small to carry it and yet she has to ask permission of the government), how about if you take your privilege, use it to buy a plane ticket to meet the girl and argue on her behalf so that her health and welfare is preserved.
5) in one of your political science classes, just for an exercise, pretend you did #4 and write about it.
1) read "Death without Weeping" by nancy Scheper hughes (to see how attachment to children is a fairly modern, fairly privileged thing and that attachment to a tiny group of cells is even more a matter of privilege; it's just an interesting look at history)
2) acquaint yourself with the 3,999 other "gods" out there and their associated mythologies (to see how your current-chosen mythology fits into the larger scheme of things)
3) take a year away from your girlfriend and your current society and live in a place that has a lot (a lot a lot a lot) of people, like Shanghai or Mumbai. Go work in the slums there or in orphanages.
4) as happened again as recelty as last week, the next time a 10 year old is impregnated by their uncle or stepfather and the girl has to ask permission of the government to get an abortion (delivering the child will harm her for life as her body is too small to carry it and yet she has to ask permission of the government), how about if you take your privilege, use it to buy a plane ticket to meet the girl and argue on her behalf so that her health and welfare is preserved.
5) in one of your political science classes, just for an exercise, pretend you did #4 and write about it.
8
There is a reason why there are winners in debate tournaments; ultimately, while both sides of an issue can present their facts and their interpretations of those facts, there is usually one side which has better evidence or a better argument supporting the interpretation of those facts. Point is, not all arguments are created equal. When people suggest that merely any lively debate is wonderful and American, they overlook the fact that any debate in which neither party can agree on fact-checking standards or certain processes of logical arguments is a worthless debate. Needless to say, a lot of the recent political debates are no longer either debates or positive sources of discourse, but rants of often unverified or false facts coupled with illogical or obviously biased trains of thought. Debate and conversation should always allow all sides to present their positions, but thought combined with research should prove that your side is only as good as the strength of your facts and the logic of your argument. Can't agree on the facts surrounding abortion and abstinence education? Look them up, and make sure they factor in to future arguments. Not sure if being transgender is a choice? Do your research. Compare to the times when being gay was also considered a choice. Do your homework, and be flexible enough to admit when the facts are telling you your side is wrong. Otherwise, your words are nothing but wasted breath.
4
It's shocking to me that a couple of my relatives are still supporting this president, especially in light of the events of the last six months. These are otherwise kind, good-natured, generous people, so to keep the peace we simply avoid any topic which could become a political discussion. But it's just sad, and I don't know what happened to them that they could be so blind to the truth. Watching Faux news is part of it, I'm sure, but it's not as if the anger reflected there is related to their own experience. These are people who are doing well financially, have decent health care, and live in an area with much diversity. I hate to think that they're just close-minded or selfish, because that's never seemed to be the case, but now I really have to wonder.
3
AS A CHILD Of the Sixties, I read this column with not a little nostalgia. Our kids went to college during less polarized times, when the existing order was so toxic and dangerous. So radioactive. Interestingly enough, though they're now 41 and 38, we're still on the same page. It takes me back to the 60s when I heard contemporaries talking about their confrontations with family members about the Peace Movement, the Civil Rights Movement and the Anti-War Movement. Another generational gap is emerging. What will happen? The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind. The answer is blowin' in the wind.
4
This is an excellent column, with participants well choose to represent multiple points of view.
Children often adopt points of view very different from those of their parents. These is no question that nowadays college faculties usually lean strongly to the left. Personally, I would like to see more diversity of opinions at America’s institutions of higher learning. But, it is what it is.
Be that as it may, what bothers me is not that students are most likely to encounter “liberal” perspectives from their campus mentors. Rather, it is the intolerance for opposing points of view that is apparent on both sides of the political spectrum. All too often, it is difficult to discuss political issues among parents, children, and friends; rational conversation and debate all too often degenerate into anger and silence.
Frankly, there is blame enough to go around. But I believe the opinion pages of the Times are at particular fault, because of the tremendous influence of the Times both in shaping many people’s opinions and in setting standards for decorum. To cite one example, those who dare to even slightly question the dogma that human beings are the major cause of climate change are branded “deniers,” a term the Times uses in a highly charged and pejorative way.
So, let us form and defend our opinions, and let us be tolerant of the opinions of others, and agree to disagree. Diversity of opinion is a good thing in today’s complex world.
Children often adopt points of view very different from those of their parents. These is no question that nowadays college faculties usually lean strongly to the left. Personally, I would like to see more diversity of opinions at America’s institutions of higher learning. But, it is what it is.
Be that as it may, what bothers me is not that students are most likely to encounter “liberal” perspectives from their campus mentors. Rather, it is the intolerance for opposing points of view that is apparent on both sides of the political spectrum. All too often, it is difficult to discuss political issues among parents, children, and friends; rational conversation and debate all too often degenerate into anger and silence.
Frankly, there is blame enough to go around. But I believe the opinion pages of the Times are at particular fault, because of the tremendous influence of the Times both in shaping many people’s opinions and in setting standards for decorum. To cite one example, those who dare to even slightly question the dogma that human beings are the major cause of climate change are branded “deniers,” a term the Times uses in a highly charged and pejorative way.
So, let us form and defend our opinions, and let us be tolerant of the opinions of others, and agree to disagree. Diversity of opinion is a good thing in today’s complex world.
4
I'm certainly not anti-science but I'm old enough to remember when they were writing articles about global cooling.
2
College is (or should be) about examining one's assumptions. (Our assumptions are not necessarily wrong, they are merely unexamined.) Most of our assumptions are derived at home from our parents. A robust exchange of ideas is inevitable -- a desired outcome of a college education, not its unfortunate by-product. Parents: If your kids aren't questioning your ideas, stop paying their tuition posthaste.
1
The question is why parents are paying if their kids are so ungrateful as to be questioning of the income, wealth and success that funds their navel gazing. If spending over $200,000 on education, the focus should be learning the career that will pay the bills, not "exploring."
2
If your sole interest is making your kid employable, spend $2000 on a vocational program at your local community college. There are plenty of jobs in the medical field that pay a good wage and only require a two-year degree.
Successful business executives, entrepreneurs, and tech specialists are paid to solve complex problems and identify new opportunities. You can't do that without understanding what other people think and why they think those things. Furthermore, you have work as part of a team, which requires learning how to properly communicate and put aside your own ego when presented with an idea that's better than your own. Without those skills, a $200,000 degree won't even translate to an entry-level position in your desired field.
Successful business executives, entrepreneurs, and tech specialists are paid to solve complex problems and identify new opportunities. You can't do that without understanding what other people think and why they think those things. Furthermore, you have work as part of a team, which requires learning how to properly communicate and put aside your own ego when presented with an idea that's better than your own. Without those skills, a $200,000 degree won't even translate to an entry-level position in your desired field.
3
If any member of my extended family voted for Trump, I do not want to know.
5
How refreshing to hear that little changes in family discussions of politics from one decade to the next as they discuss politics! This NYT article is a reminder of how dull discussions are when everyone agrees.
I understand why parents hesitate to send children away to school. But I worry less about the agenda of so-called "liberal" colleges and universities which generally only focus on improving critical thinking skills than I do about the agenda of those institutions which are founded to convey a single message--often a fundamentalist religious viewpoint--which does not allow a student to be exposed to other views. Censoring the education of a student is difficult in a large university, but much easier to do in a more isolated college setting.
In an increasingly connected world, sheltering ones child through the college years leaves them vulnerable to dangerous ideologies practiced by those who seek to harm the world community. Restricting a student's access to the art, music, poetry, dance and science produced by those whose viewpoints disagree with parental ones is fortunately in most cases a losing battle. It is rare to keep individuals confined in a narrow community for their whole lives, although there are religious communities who manage to do so even within highly urban areas.
Children who do not attend college often have great discussions with their parents or siblings even if politics isn't the subject. The same experience vs idealism divide does occur.
I understand why parents hesitate to send children away to school. But I worry less about the agenda of so-called "liberal" colleges and universities which generally only focus on improving critical thinking skills than I do about the agenda of those institutions which are founded to convey a single message--often a fundamentalist religious viewpoint--which does not allow a student to be exposed to other views. Censoring the education of a student is difficult in a large university, but much easier to do in a more isolated college setting.
In an increasingly connected world, sheltering ones child through the college years leaves them vulnerable to dangerous ideologies practiced by those who seek to harm the world community. Restricting a student's access to the art, music, poetry, dance and science produced by those whose viewpoints disagree with parental ones is fortunately in most cases a losing battle. It is rare to keep individuals confined in a narrow community for their whole lives, although there are religious communities who manage to do so even within highly urban areas.
Children who do not attend college often have great discussions with their parents or siblings even if politics isn't the subject. The same experience vs idealism divide does occur.
10
Every child should be taught from 6th grade on how to identify credible sources, research and cite facts. Just because someone says something and your gut agrees with it, does not make it true. This rigor is one of the greatest skills liberal arts college can provide and it is not valued or emphasized enough.
5
I definitely feel for Wei Xue. I paid full freight, ~ 260K, to have my Daughter educated at an elite Liberal Arts school. And while the education was top-notch I was not supportive of the College's implicit support of disruptive groups like Black Lives Matter. Disturbing students in a Library during Finals Week doesn't strike me as a way to move Black Lives Matter issues forward.
Fortunately once my Daughter starts working and paying taxes I am sure she will come to her senses and veer towards the center. Much like I did. Socialist in College, Conservative after graduating and having to work.
Fortunately once my Daughter starts working and paying taxes I am sure she will come to her senses and veer towards the center. Much like I did. Socialist in College, Conservative after graduating and having to work.
4
A client who spent $233,000 on his daughter's Jesuit education told me that when she came home at the end of her Junior year, she was an adamant Sanders supporter. A little over a year later, having graduated, securing a well paying white collar job, facing the Manhattan rental market and started paying substantial taxes, she voted for Trump because she didn't feel she should have to let the government just take her money. It's amazing what a dose of reality will accomplish.
6
Funny, in college I was a liberal and after a career witnessing corporate cronyism at the highest levels, I'm a full-blown Socialist. As they say on Long Island, go figure.
8
All Trump supporters in my family. Enthusiastic, too. It's beautiful.
6
May the current political left-right hatred and infighting also be expanded to parent-children relations! this clearly needs to be celebrated!☢️☣️
3
What a great article and parts were absolutely hilarious. Woody Allen couldn't have written this out any better. The daughter complaining that only at college were people 'properly' gay and the woman's own mother responding "But we're gay!" And to the daughter she just did not 'make the gay grade.' And the black woman who pointed out the politically correct white people who made racist comments but then proclaimed "Black Lives Matter." The fluster, the confusion, the human absurdity- it was classic. Most of these issues could be any issues, because there is a generational divide regardless of time or place, but in reading this very funny piece, I couldn't help hearing the words of Casey Stengel (in another forum) shaking his head and saying "Can't anybody play this game around here?"
10
My two college-aged sons are both anti-Trump. Their commitment, however, does not even come close to mine. They don't read newspapers or magazines, and they don't watch television news shows. Maybe they are picking up things by osmosis.
6
I have to laugh. I have two college kids home for the summer and all the dinner table battles rage between my increasingly conservative son and his increasingly liberal sister. I, a former Republican and currently proud Democrat, just try to referee and keep the swearing to a minimum. Freedom of thought and speech keeps things lively and stimulating for us all!
36
My view is that it is perfectly okay to be liberal. Just don't ask me to pay for it.
4
I enjoyed this article because of the extensive quotes from the families. We have these discussions in my family as well. We have trouble getting to facts because emotions get in the way. But we try to always be respectful.
What the piece made me curious about for future articles would be the extent of these family divisions on a larger scale. How does this play out across the country for different age groups, education levels, and affluence? How many families did the NYT have to reach out to find their families in the article? What about the harder question of trends? And are these generational differences changing over time? Maybe as a function of affluence? Education?
Behavioral economics research indicates that some issues, where emotional buy in has not occurred, are more tractable for parties to change their positions. Maybe this would be true for some of the issues dividing generations.
Unfortunately, I think that politicians have become too good at wedge issues and this might be the source of what I percieve as a growing gap between left and right. Thanks a lot, politicians (voters and non-votors may be complicit as well). We, as an electorate are being driven instead of us doing the driving. I think I will try this in my next family discussion. Maybe we should understand who wants us to feel that way about an issue. Maybe that will help remove some of the emotional baggage as no one in my family likes to be manipulated.
What the piece made me curious about for future articles would be the extent of these family divisions on a larger scale. How does this play out across the country for different age groups, education levels, and affluence? How many families did the NYT have to reach out to find their families in the article? What about the harder question of trends? And are these generational differences changing over time? Maybe as a function of affluence? Education?
Behavioral economics research indicates that some issues, where emotional buy in has not occurred, are more tractable for parties to change their positions. Maybe this would be true for some of the issues dividing generations.
Unfortunately, I think that politicians have become too good at wedge issues and this might be the source of what I percieve as a growing gap between left and right. Thanks a lot, politicians (voters and non-votors may be complicit as well). We, as an electorate are being driven instead of us doing the driving. I think I will try this in my next family discussion. Maybe we should understand who wants us to feel that way about an issue. Maybe that will help remove some of the emotional baggage as no one in my family likes to be manipulated.
3
Quick conversions of college students to the pursuit of equality, peace and justice are most often subjected only a few years later to the moral tests imposed by corporate giants peddling their own brand of politics. Too often, the paycheck wins the battle. We've had many years of Liberty University and its holier than thou imitators arguing that traditional colleges are turning "the youth" into liberal zombies, and yet college-aged people are still in the streets fighting off minority conservatism. Public education goes away when countries are buried under dictatorship. Listen to your kids. Learn something.
6
Headline for this piece should have been: "Effect of US Maoist Reeducation Camps on College Students". Subhead: "Parents just want money repaid someday"
7
This a surprise?
What do you think happened when 60s Boomers went home and discussed Viet Nam with their "Greatest Generation" parents?
What do you think happened when 60s Boomers went home and discussed Viet Nam with their "Greatest Generation" parents?
13
Most parents don't want their kids to think for themselves; they want their kids to think just like them, just be more successful
6
In the 1920s the Southern Baptists plucked my intelligent, hard-working grandfather from a farm in Alabama & sent him to Wake Forest University in North Carolina. There, he saw an entirely new world, one that opened his eyes to the injustices of the world - most especially, the injustices in his corner of the world. After earning his PhD in theology, he shocked his Southern Baptist brethren by returning to preach racial tolerance & civil rights for all. Needless to say, this was not what the church elders had expected. They hounded my grandfather until he finally broke with them, joined the American Baptists, & went north to live. He only returned to the south to support Dr. King & his civil rights movement.
Breaking with the Southern Baptists was not an easy choice for my grandfather, but he eventually realized it was the only choice. One man preaching love, peace, & understanding amid a sea of racists was not able to make a difference in the 1930s. It took thirty more years to accumulate enough of a critical mass of people for laws to be changed.
He & my grandmother went on to raise three children; those children raised nine grandchildren, & those grandchildren are raising six great-grandchildren. Although we have disagreed on minor points, we have never had this kind of division or discord in our family, because our educations & experiences have reaffirmed our grandparents' basic values over & over again. All stemming from a university education at Wake Forest.
Breaking with the Southern Baptists was not an easy choice for my grandfather, but he eventually realized it was the only choice. One man preaching love, peace, & understanding amid a sea of racists was not able to make a difference in the 1930s. It took thirty more years to accumulate enough of a critical mass of people for laws to be changed.
He & my grandmother went on to raise three children; those children raised nine grandchildren, & those grandchildren are raising six great-grandchildren. Although we have disagreed on minor points, we have never had this kind of division or discord in our family, because our educations & experiences have reaffirmed our grandparents' basic values over & over again. All stemming from a university education at Wake Forest.
37
I have the feeling, perhaps someone can pull the studies for us, that children more often than not agree with parents values and world view. Allison's family would seem to be closer to the norm, an educated group out of a grandparent with faith-based values. Politics I think is more superficial than core values. My mother-in-law, dyed-in-the-wool Texas Republican, voted for Barack Obama in 2008. Even though raised by yellow-dog Democrats, I voted for John McCain. We both thought the other hung the moon.
Jimmy Carter also had to finally break with the Southern Baptists because Jesus taught social justice, not anti-gay, anti-abortion, pro-weapons, etc.
Southern Baptists have become strident and close-minded fundamentalists. If you read their history, their leadership essentially gerrymandered the politics so that now only very conservative churches and leaders are in charge. It parallels the current Republican strategy.
Southern Baptists have become strident and close-minded fundamentalists. If you read their history, their leadership essentially gerrymandered the politics so that now only very conservative churches and leaders are in charge. It parallels the current Republican strategy.
I grew up poor, and studied politics from an early age, because it helped explain the abuse I grew up with. I paid my own way through junior college as my father had no value for education and refused the tax information I needed at the time for scholarships- no one ever mentioned student loans to me. It took 30 years to obtain my B.A.,but on the other hand I was free to believe what I wanted and reject the bigoted,ignorant ways of my parents. The bottom line for these college kids- get a summer job, save some money and don't go home. Fights eliminated.
10
If you are trying to change someone's mind about things, its probably better not to accuse them of bad behavior, but rather to find things that you agree on.
When I want to talk to conservatives, the first thing I say is Hillary is corrupt. Now we have common ground to move from.
And remember what you don't know about people. Racism is fooling yourself into believing you can know something about someone based on their skin color. There is zero correlation between skin color and intelligence, character, honesty, hard work, or how hard someone's life is. (Unless they are orange of course.)
Telling a white person that they are "privileged." is going to get you no where. First, no one likes to be accused of stuff, especially that their whole lives were handed to them on a silver platter. Second, they could be far from privileged.
Imagine a white kid whose parents die at ten, who spends their teen years care getting hungry and abused by some slimy foster parent, beat up at school for being gay, finally fights back and gets arrested for beating up some bully, and now can't get a decent job because of his record. Then you come along and call them, privileged, and expect them to have a lightbulb go off over their head and realize they are actually the oppressor. It won't work.
Find out about how they have had to struggle, and then relate that struggle to the struggles you are concerned with.
When I want to talk to conservatives, the first thing I say is Hillary is corrupt. Now we have common ground to move from.
And remember what you don't know about people. Racism is fooling yourself into believing you can know something about someone based on their skin color. There is zero correlation between skin color and intelligence, character, honesty, hard work, or how hard someone's life is. (Unless they are orange of course.)
Telling a white person that they are "privileged." is going to get you no where. First, no one likes to be accused of stuff, especially that their whole lives were handed to them on a silver platter. Second, they could be far from privileged.
Imagine a white kid whose parents die at ten, who spends their teen years care getting hungry and abused by some slimy foster parent, beat up at school for being gay, finally fights back and gets arrested for beating up some bully, and now can't get a decent job because of his record. Then you come along and call them, privileged, and expect them to have a lightbulb go off over their head and realize they are actually the oppressor. It won't work.
Find out about how they have had to struggle, and then relate that struggle to the struggles you are concerned with.
11
The idea that people think just like their parents until they go to college is just silly. Even young children are highly influenced by their peers. Once puberty sets in and their hormones start telling them to fight with their parents so their parents will let them move out, they already "know everything."
If you think you can keep your children from independent thought be keeping them out of college, you are happily mistaken.
Good teachers and good schools teach the techniques of critical thinking. If you are afraid of doubt, and of challenging your own assumptions and biases, that is your problem.
And if challenging your assumptions, looking deeply at problems, finding flaws in arguments, etc, moves people to the left, then the left is probably the way to go.
Supreme Court Justices are picked by all sorts of presidents, but a detailed study of their opinions over decades showed that the longer they were on the court the further left their opinions went (except apparently for money in politics).
And the people who call themselves conservatives now are anything but anyway. Conservative is not penny wise and pound foolish, blaming the poor for stealing all of the money, assuming that global billionaires like you because your white, thinking that you built your business all by yourself, and that that the infrastructure you use, your publicly educated employees, the police, your supply chain, etc, mean nothing because you a "rugged individualist." That's just propaganda.
If you think you can keep your children from independent thought be keeping them out of college, you are happily mistaken.
Good teachers and good schools teach the techniques of critical thinking. If you are afraid of doubt, and of challenging your own assumptions and biases, that is your problem.
And if challenging your assumptions, looking deeply at problems, finding flaws in arguments, etc, moves people to the left, then the left is probably the way to go.
Supreme Court Justices are picked by all sorts of presidents, but a detailed study of their opinions over decades showed that the longer they were on the court the further left their opinions went (except apparently for money in politics).
And the people who call themselves conservatives now are anything but anyway. Conservative is not penny wise and pound foolish, blaming the poor for stealing all of the money, assuming that global billionaires like you because your white, thinking that you built your business all by yourself, and that that the infrastructure you use, your publicly educated employees, the police, your supply chain, etc, mean nothing because you a "rugged individualist." That's just propaganda.
5
The problem that most parents have with their children's divergent and often further left views is that they are often expected to underwrite some or all of the children's education when the universities choose to equate academic freedom with liberalism. It's exacerbated by arguments by students and faculty that often lack the experience of paying the bills, fighting for opportunity and are housed in a cloak of tenure and ivory. In the end, if institutions were in fact bastions of a diversity of opinion brought about by balanced debate, I would welcome the differences in thinking and not feel as though one is paying for one's own beating
22
Then don't pay. If parents stopped paying, more students would take out loans, and we would have fewer man-children whining at Republican mommy and daddy (they would just stop coming home for the holidays). An added plus is that the student loan bubble would burst sooner, which means most people will have gone to school for free like their European counterparts because there will be a critical mass of defaults.
My deepest sympathies to the mother in the second example. It must be truly horrible to have your child come home from school to tell you that they don't respect you as a full human being. Especially with the rationale of a conversion to Catholicism inspired by a Presbyterian minister and a non-denominationally 'Christian' girlfriend -- which doesn't even make theological sense.
14
may all children turn against their parents!
I suspect that college students have been working to change their parents' minds since colleges were invented, even though the content of debate changes over the years.
9
Students today are the future of our democracy. So, the more they debate, the better. Following dictatorial leaders without debate will surely lead to the demise of our democracy.
24
I agree. the current tolerance on today's college campuses more than illustrates that democracy is safe. the same applies for the demands for safe spaces. this will insure more diverse discussions between different groups in society and help insure a healthier democracy and tolerance for differing political viewpoints.
There are alternatives to battling, avoiding, etc. your parents during the summer over political differences. There are many opportunities in the neighborhoods you are in to volunteer, demonstrate, whatever. And it may be more effective there than in your college environment.
3
I really loved this piece and how even the furthest apart parents and children tried to stay open to each other, to lead with love and to accept that even if they stay on different paths they still share a common landscape. It may not be hard news but we need more articles like this about real everyday people and the good therein to keep us hopeful......
8
There's a fundamental restructuring of the world's political alignments going on. Basically, the post-WWII era is over and the US has deep challenges to its position in the world.
Sadly, these students seem singularly unprepared to engage with and shape the emerging world. Not one of them seems even to be aware of the implications of nuclear war with North Korea or of Putin attaching the Baltic States or of China completing control of the South China Sea.
Sadly, these students seem singularly unprepared to engage with and shape the emerging world. Not one of them seems even to be aware of the implications of nuclear war with North Korea or of Putin attaching the Baltic States or of China completing control of the South China Sea.
9
or even the implications for demands for safe spaces!
1
Bringing back the draft and posting large numbers of them on the DMZ would teach them pretty quickly.
1
Perhaps this article should link to the excellent Op-Eds the NYTimes very own Nick Kristof published on the topic titled "A Confession of Liberal Intolerance" https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/08/opinion/sunday/a-confession-of-libera... and "The Dangers of Echo Chambers on Campus" https://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/10/opinion/sunday/the-dangers-of-echo-ch...
Nick said it a lot better than I can. Make no mistake about it, campuses are overtly liberal and the diversity embraced on campus is almost never diversity of political thought or philosophy.
Nick said it a lot better than I can. Make no mistake about it, campuses are overtly liberal and the diversity embraced on campus is almost never diversity of political thought or philosophy.
8
Apparently parents who identify as progressive but voted for Hillary Clinton despite being shamed by their Bernie Sanders-voting children is not a thing. Or so the NYT would have us believe.
7
Is it really college -- or is it just an age-old process of exploring new ideas as we become independent adults? My father (with whom I argued ferociously through my teens) always claimed that Mark Twain once wrote, "When I was 16, I thought my father was the biggest fool that ever walked the earth. And when I was 20, I was amazed by how much the old man had learned in just four years."
38
To the last conversation, I'll say that there is nothing wrong with being a lesbian and that there is concern in the older lesbian community that lesbianism is being erased in this age of "LGBTQ." Instead of the alphabet soup, let's not forget that besides "gay" and "trans," there is a vast lesbian community. And that some transpeople are lesbian. Let's treat everyone equally: Lesbian, Gay, Transgender, Bisexual, Questioning, Straight, the whole wonderful humanity.
7
all parents should celebrate homosexuality in their children!
1
Justice Gorsuch was an undergraduate at Columbia and went to Harvard Law - the same education at about the same time as experienced by President Obama. Their opinions were informed by their own understanding that they derived at least partially from their educations - they certainly did not wind up at the same conclusions. University experiences provide exposure to ideas and students see how they are promoted or belittled by other students. In the free world, faculty provide the education that is the background needed to develop a perspective - not the religious and political indoctrination that is demanded in controlled societies.
81
What's missing from your analysis is that places like Harvard produce 10 Obamas for every Gorsuch.
Those odds are getting worse with each passing decade as the demonization and "otherization" of conservatives continues, with open and unbridled hostility.
Those odds are getting worse with each passing decade as the demonization and "otherization" of conservatives continues, with open and unbridled hostility.
9
@RS: The rapid rise in open hostility toward so-called conservatives originates with the persistent hostility coming from people who call themselves conservatives. In other words, "they started it."
It would never have occurred to me to treat anyone as disrepectfully as I've been treated by those on the right. It is shocking to be called a monster simply because you express an opinion, or to be compared with Mengele, because you advocate for women's rights, or to be threatened with violence by fanatic anti-abortionists. Some of these people are obviously mentally ill; they commit actual murders.
It is natural for people to want to defend themselves from this kind of criminality and abuse. So I would say that the right needs to do some serious soul-searching and ask themselves if they may not be partially responsible for creating this atmosphere. Unless they are saints, people who are attacked are only going to turn the other cheek so many times before they start defending themselves.
It would never have occurred to me to treat anyone as disrepectfully as I've been treated by those on the right. It is shocking to be called a monster simply because you express an opinion, or to be compared with Mengele, because you advocate for women's rights, or to be threatened with violence by fanatic anti-abortionists. Some of these people are obviously mentally ill; they commit actual murders.
It is natural for people to want to defend themselves from this kind of criminality and abuse. So I would say that the right needs to do some serious soul-searching and ask themselves if they may not be partially responsible for creating this atmosphere. Unless they are saints, people who are attacked are only going to turn the other cheek so many times before they start defending themselves.
1
@RS: The most hostility I've ever encountered in my life comes straight from so-called conservatives who feel it is their right to abuse me for believing in a woman's right to choose, or for advocating for social justice and gender parity. I have never engaged in insulting or offending people I disagree with politically, but I have taken plenty of abuse from people who cannot refrain from attacking liberals, as if holding liberal or progressive ideas makes a person inherently unworthy of respect. The rapid rise in open hostility toward so-called conservatives originates with the persistent hostility coming from people who call themselves conservatives. In other words, "they started it."
It would never have occurred to me to treat anyone as disrepectfully as I've been treated by those on the right. It is shocking to be called a monster simply because you express an opinion, or to be compared with Mengele, because you advocate for women's rights, or to be threatened with violence by fanatic anti-abortionists. Some of these people are obviously mentally ill; they commit actual murders.
It is natural for people to want to defend themselves from this kind of criminality and abuse. So I would say that the right needs to do some serious soul-searching and ask themselves if they may not be partially responsible for creating this atmosphere. Unless they are saints, people who are attacked are only going to turn the other cheek so many times before they start defending themselves.
It would never have occurred to me to treat anyone as disrepectfully as I've been treated by those on the right. It is shocking to be called a monster simply because you express an opinion, or to be compared with Mengele, because you advocate for women's rights, or to be threatened with violence by fanatic anti-abortionists. Some of these people are obviously mentally ill; they commit actual murders.
It is natural for people to want to defend themselves from this kind of criminality and abuse. So I would say that the right needs to do some serious soul-searching and ask themselves if they may not be partially responsible for creating this atmosphere. Unless they are saints, people who are attacked are only going to turn the other cheek so many times before they start defending themselves.
1
College students, and everyone under 40 years old, – ask your parents how in good conscious they will pass on to you the burdens of $20 Trillion, and growing, nation debt ($170,000+ for each of you); approx. $100 Trillion, and growing, in future unfunded liabilities; an expensive yet broken healthcare system and virtually bankrupt Social Security and Medicare systems. All of which your parents could have worked to fixed, but they didn’t.
Ask them how time-and time-again they believed, possibly supported, self-interested Elected Politicians from both parties whose main goals have been to be re-elected and reap the benefits during and after their terms and to pay back their party and special interest contributors. You must learn from your parents’ mistakes since those that do not learn from the past are destined to repeat it.
There is no debate - your parents didn’t do it, and they have hurt your future! You must hold your parents and Elected Politician from both parties responsible for knowingly enslaving our future generations in debt due to their and their staffers' self-interest, that of their party and their special interest donors.
http://www.USDebtForum.com
Ask them how time-and time-again they believed, possibly supported, self-interested Elected Politicians from both parties whose main goals have been to be re-elected and reap the benefits during and after their terms and to pay back their party and special interest contributors. You must learn from your parents’ mistakes since those that do not learn from the past are destined to repeat it.
There is no debate - your parents didn’t do it, and they have hurt your future! You must hold your parents and Elected Politician from both parties responsible for knowingly enslaving our future generations in debt due to their and their staffers' self-interest, that of their party and their special interest donors.
http://www.USDebtForum.com
3
USA is the richest nation the world has ever known. Are you suggesting that USA cannot afford Social Security and Medicare -- both funded by payroll deductions. Funny, 60 nations can afford single payer health care (much less expensive than for-profit health care) but USA "can't."
Social Security funds have been raided to pay for Bush's wars -- and you know it. We voters have little influence -- and you know that too. Nobody wanted the Iraq War, we got it anyway.
Social Security funds have been raided to pay for Bush's wars -- and you know it. We voters have little influence -- and you know that too. Nobody wanted the Iraq War, we got it anyway.
5
Zejee - thanks for your comments. Voter have little influence because that's what Voters chose. We are a Republic operating as a representative democracy. Voters can make a difference. Yes, the Bush tax cuts, recession, unfunded wars and military actions around the world, the financial crisis and the self-interested Elected Politicians raiding the Social Security Trust Fund and paying back special interest through the tax code got us here.
The Social Security Trust Fund holds Treasury IOU's. More than 10,000 people every day for the next 19 years will hit 65 and be eligible for Social Security. and Medicare. Every year the US runs a deficit which includes social security revenue from workers. Take a look at reputable projections. Better yet, You Do the Math!
The Social Security Trust Fund holds Treasury IOU's. More than 10,000 people every day for the next 19 years will hit 65 and be eligible for Social Security. and Medicare. Every year the US runs a deficit which includes social security revenue from workers. Take a look at reputable projections. Better yet, You Do the Math!
Somehow I suspect that "US Debt Forum" is a pseudonym. What do your friends call you for short?
I hope this encourages pro-Trump students to come out of their closets and boldly parade around with MAGA! posters. Without fear of the hatred and violence directed at them by the "tolerant left"
8
Trouble is, Trump has nothing to offer other than a slogan (MAGA) and a desperate need for approbation. He is truly an empty vessel.
10
The idea that I am supposed to be tolerant of hate is just word games. It is the right that constantly tells people to hate. Hate the Arabs. Hate the Muslims. Hate the Hindus. Hate the Catholics or the Protestants depending on which one you are. Hate the French (yay freedom fries). Hate the Russians until they are led by a murderous strongman who rides a horse with his shirt off. Hate the immigrants. Hate the gays. Hate the poor because they are lazy, and want food to eat. Hate college professors and call them "elite" because they teach critical thinking skills (while the actual elite are smart because they pay less taxes than you). Hate the disabled because you don't want to pay to help them live better lives.
And most of all Hate the liberals and constantly call for beating them up or murdering then all.
Yes I hate Trump. He is a symptom of everything that is wrong with modern society. He is greedy and lies and has no respect for the law or institutions of democracy. And I hate Clinton because she takes way to much money from people like that and keeps saying that we need to compromise with haters like Trump, instead of taking back our country from the haters and investing in humans.
And most of all Hate the liberals and constantly call for beating them up or murdering then all.
Yes I hate Trump. He is a symptom of everything that is wrong with modern society. He is greedy and lies and has no respect for the law or institutions of democracy. And I hate Clinton because she takes way to much money from people like that and keeps saying that we need to compromise with haters like Trump, instead of taking back our country from the haters and investing in humans.
4
I agree. this will show whether or not college students truly are tolerant of diversity, as if we don't know the answer to that question already.
2
I read somewhere that the sin of youth is to think that experience is worth nothing; the sin of age is to think that experience is everything.
So keep talking to each other, students and parents. Love is about understanding, even when you don't agree. And prize and reinforce all that you have in common. If your family isn't on board with this, you've got problems far beyond those of American politics.
So keep talking to each other, students and parents. Love is about understanding, even when you don't agree. And prize and reinforce all that you have in common. If your family isn't on board with this, you've got problems far beyond those of American politics.
31
Experience IS everything. Some of the most important life lessons I have learned were the opposite of common wisdom and my own self-interest. They were often painful (physically and/or mentally) but that only ensures they will not be forgotten.
Tell us something new. As middle-school student, all I had to say at the dinner table to set off my moderately Republican father was, "FDR was the greatest president we've ever had." This would cause my dad, who didn't swear in front of the family as a rule, to respond, "That 'goshdarn son-of-a-gun'! He ruined this country." (I euphemize). He had his reasons: Roosevelt closed the banks in my father's last semester of college, thus making him unable to pay his tuition and obtain his degree.
My father and I sparred over Republican-vs-Democratic issues for the rest of his life quite amicably and even playfully. At least we could both agree on the Chicago Cubs. I wish I had him as a sparring partner now. I'd be interested to hear what he would say about Trump. I don't think he'd approve, but whatever he thought, he'd say it with an affectionate grin.
My father and I sparred over Republican-vs-Democratic issues for the rest of his life quite amicably and even playfully. At least we could both agree on the Chicago Cubs. I wish I had him as a sparring partner now. I'd be interested to hear what he would say about Trump. I don't think he'd approve, but whatever he thought, he'd say it with an affectionate grin.
34
If your father was in the military in WWII, it would be very easy to finish a degree through the GI Bill. But even without the GI Bill, many of us took a non traditional approach to college and your gather could have, too.
I put myself through college -- no GI Bill for me -- at a time when education was far more expensive. I worked full time and studied part time. I was married. I juggled a lot of responsibility and would never blame someone else if I'd decided not to bother resuming my education at a later date if I'd been stymied after 3 years of study. It took me 20 years to get all of my degrees as I worked full time and took care of family responsibilities as well. Nobody is responsible for "making me" take so long to finish my education. Those are the breaks -- and you either live up to them or you don't.
I put myself through college -- no GI Bill for me -- at a time when education was far more expensive. I worked full time and studied part time. I was married. I juggled a lot of responsibility and would never blame someone else if I'd decided not to bother resuming my education at a later date if I'd been stymied after 3 years of study. It took me 20 years to get all of my degrees as I worked full time and took care of family responsibilities as well. Nobody is responsible for "making me" take so long to finish my education. Those are the breaks -- and you either live up to them or you don't.
and what would cause a middle school student to confidently declare who the greatest president was?
1
A beautiful memory and excellent illustration on what has been lost. You and your Father didn't agree, but had amicable sparring matches after which you both could move on and talk about other things. No temper tantrums or slamming doors. This is a valuable lesson on how to engage people with whom you disagree without resorting to nastiness or out right violence.
The world is increasingly losing this form of debate and instead favors uncivil, cruel rhetoric. Each side is entrenched, certain they have the one truth and that the "other" side is source of all our problems.
It is never that simple.
The world is increasingly losing this form of debate and instead favors uncivil, cruel rhetoric. Each side is entrenched, certain they have the one truth and that the "other" side is source of all our problems.
It is never that simple.
4
Keep talking, and hopefully we will eventually evolve beyond this. My worry is the glib way the "President" advocates violence and cruelty as reasonable responses to adversity. Trump is president in name only.
8
The only fight my father and I ever had was over Bush Jr.
By 2004, he apologised to me.
By 2004, he apologised to me.
24
It's good these parents are at least attempting to understand their children's point of view, because we all know a few semesters of exposure to new ideas make college students right about eeeeeverything.
9
Well if the parents are racist, then yes the kids would learn how to develop a non-racist value system.
4
But, it's amazing how much parents learn in the next 20 years. My Dad told me that joke a little before the 20 years. Neither of my parents made it that far.
Problem with being a youngest child of 2 youngest children with a world war in the middle between child 1 & 2. My friends parents were the ages that the children of my parents friends were. So I'm a generation ahead, with many of the thoughts & emotions of the previous. To me WW2 is still just over, too little to remember Korea, fought for respect for those sent to Vietnam, though thought government wrong. Learned you don't go to war unless you intend to win. I didn't fit in High School. Got called hawk a lot. I was just on the service mens side. In fact I married a guy in the Navy. Not some draft dodger. Though I have always said I respected young men who burned their draft cards but stayed here to fight the war, not the ones who ran to Canada, they were cowards. Soldiers who came home & started protesting have my greatest respect. For they knew what was going on. The sandal crowd didn't.
Problem with being a youngest child of 2 youngest children with a world war in the middle between child 1 & 2. My friends parents were the ages that the children of my parents friends were. So I'm a generation ahead, with many of the thoughts & emotions of the previous. To me WW2 is still just over, too little to remember Korea, fought for respect for those sent to Vietnam, though thought government wrong. Learned you don't go to war unless you intend to win. I didn't fit in High School. Got called hawk a lot. I was just on the service mens side. In fact I married a guy in the Navy. Not some draft dodger. Though I have always said I respected young men who burned their draft cards but stayed here to fight the war, not the ones who ran to Canada, they were cowards. Soldiers who came home & started protesting have my greatest respect. For they knew what was going on. The sandal crowd didn't.
1
I don't expect College students to have the same grasp of history as someone who has been on the planet longer, so one should always assume there will be friction from a generational standpoint, however the election of Donald Trump is, still, the most exceptional political event that has happened in my 62 years on the planet and I think it is the kind of cataclysmic change that should end friendships, breakup marriages and tear families asunder. Whenever I hear of people putting this behind them, it just makes me wonder how much more striking an event would have to be in order to upset the status quo. This isn't a test students, you are actually taking part in history. A history, I fear, we will look back on in shame.
14
The most cataclysmic event that has happened since 1955? Wow, somehow you missed the Cold War, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the Vietnam war, the Kennedy assassination and the Sixties, 9/11, and the incessant wars in the Middle East?
4
or it could be indicative of the new level of tolerance currently prevalent in society!
1
@Cloudy, 63 million people didn't vote for 9/11, the Kennedy assassination, the Sixties or the Vietnam War thinking they would Make America Great Again. That's what made this exceptional, the sheer stupidity of it was sanctioned by so many people.
I've always thought the objection to higher education's "liberalizing" agenda is very telling; if college professors succeed in encouraging their students to think more critically about the communities in which they live, and the natural conclusion at which those critically-engaged students arrive is that their community's prevailing views are narrow-minded or otherwise problematic, then what parents are really objecting to is the newfound awareness their children may employ to implicate their family's complicity with social injustices. Parents do not appreciate their "woke" teens accusing them of racist/sexist behavior.
Trying to discuss white privilege with one's Baby Boomer parents is a good example; rather than engaging in a productive discussion about how one's racial identity is a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR in matters of financial success (though of course is only one of many factors influencing career outcomes), the conversation often degenerates into a defensive tirade about "hard work" and the social scourge that is white guilt. I often get the sense that white middle-class parents feel their children are being taught to be ashamed of their whiteness when in fact their students are simply learning to see connections between the undeniable colonial history of our country and modern trends of racial prejudice.
It's time to celebrate and encourage nuanced thinking, especially given our current political climate saturated with numbing buzzwords and "alternative facts."
Trying to discuss white privilege with one's Baby Boomer parents is a good example; rather than engaging in a productive discussion about how one's racial identity is a CONTRIBUTING FACTOR in matters of financial success (though of course is only one of many factors influencing career outcomes), the conversation often degenerates into a defensive tirade about "hard work" and the social scourge that is white guilt. I often get the sense that white middle-class parents feel their children are being taught to be ashamed of their whiteness when in fact their students are simply learning to see connections between the undeniable colonial history of our country and modern trends of racial prejudice.
It's time to celebrate and encourage nuanced thinking, especially given our current political climate saturated with numbing buzzwords and "alternative facts."
35
Please help me find the white privilege in the family tree. Did my grandfather have it when he was pulled from school in a W VA company town to work in a factory at age 12 because he was "big enough to do the work and had all the schooling he'd need for it?" Or did he have it at 16 when he was big enough to go to work in the mines? Did he find it when his only means of escape at 16 was to run away, lie about his age and enlist in the Navy? Or did my own dad experience white privilege when he had to leave school after the ninth grade to work the family farm so they wouldn't starve during the Depression? Perhaps I benefited when an Army recruiter told me I was out of line (insubordinate in fact) to want the tech field I'd been promised for a year and a half when he demanded I sign up for an MOS that led to being stuck in a minimum wage job these last 38 years since my HD.
2
I think you should probably do some research on the concept of white privilege because you don't seem to understand it very well. Having a hard life has nothing to do with white privilege. It is not about having things handed to you because you are white; it is about your whiteness never specifically being an obstacle to your success as it has been with other racial groups. It's really not that complicated.
1
Too many commentators see colleges as hot beds of "libealism" and "left" thinking. Could it be that one of the purposes of college is to spur thought about many of the policies conservative politicians are espousing that do not make any sense? Could it be that many white college students, after leading idilic lives in their suburban homes, now see a greater society? White entitlement is a major societal problem. Too may whites continue to harbor racist, bigoted, and xenophobic views of many individuals in our scociety. This is what propelled Trump into the white house and students should, and must, push back against this type of thinking. We did in the 60's and there is as much if not more of a need now to move the country forward. The rest of the industrialized world is moving ahead while Republicans are trying their best to move us backward.
24
Yes if getting an education makes you move to the left, and using "common sense" makes you move to the right, then I will go with education every time.
Common sense sense says that the earth is flat, that the sun "rises" and "sets," that when smoke disappears into the sky, so does the carbon, that disease is caused by evil spirits, the stars are on a globe over our heads, etc.
Common sense is a good starting point, but if you want to actually know how something works, you need to use the scientific method to test hypotheses, to see which ones deserve to be actual theories.
If you are too lazy to challenge your own assumptions, then don't go around challenging other people who do, find their assumptions lacking, and then move on to better explanations.
Common sense sense says that the earth is flat, that the sun "rises" and "sets," that when smoke disappears into the sky, so does the carbon, that disease is caused by evil spirits, the stars are on a globe over our heads, etc.
Common sense is a good starting point, but if you want to actually know how something works, you need to use the scientific method to test hypotheses, to see which ones deserve to be actual theories.
If you are too lazy to challenge your own assumptions, then don't go around challenging other people who do, find their assumptions lacking, and then move on to better explanations.
3
I am tired of being blamed. The Trump voters left the normal, civilized
Society, PEROID. They were warned many, many times. They wanted chaos, they've got it. So, enjoy the results, Bigly.
Society, PEROID. They were warned many, many times. They wanted chaos, they've got it. So, enjoy the results, Bigly.
108
Pardon me Phyliss but it's "period". If you're going to all-cap something, it looks a little better to spell it correctly. It's your second time today.
1
Sorry, migraine day. ( period ). Thanks.
1
-It's far more humane to see dolphins in the wild. They are independent creatures and should not be penned for our enjoyment. They do not exist to serve us, to suffer so that we can feel enriched.
-I laughed at the part about how the dad just keeps repeating his point over and over...our children (rising Freshman and rising Senior in college) say the same thing about their dad, my husband.
-I laughed at the part about how the dad just keeps repeating his point over and over...our children (rising Freshman and rising Senior in college) say the same thing about their dad, my husband.
4
On the one hand, I wonder why kids and parents discuss politics at all. This reminds me of all of those stories about fights around Thanksgiving, as if political discourse is even appropriate in such settings (in my view it's not). On the other hand, if any of my kids became a liberal, I would be devastated and extremely disappointed that I didn't raise them better.
5
And I would be devastated if my sons had voted for the racist, sexist, pathological liar who now occupies the White House. Neither of them did, thank heaven.
17
All college students are Democrats until they enter the real world. Democrats have been pumping this utopia paid for by others, and yea, it sounds great, until you realize that YOU are the 'other' paying for it.
16
So according to you the Democratic party should be made entirely of 18-24 year olds?
15
People that randomly spout easily disprovable nonsense like "all college students are Democrats" give "conservatives" a bad name.
4
Just as all Republicans are Republicans until they lose their health insurance, or wind up on unemployment, or their house is flooded or burned out in a wild fire, or can't afford to send their kids to college, or age into Medicare and Social Security.
It sounds great until YOU are the one who needs a village.
It sounds great until YOU are the one who needs a village.
7
Nothing new about any of this. Ever since higher education was opened up in great numbers to those other than the 1%, many students exposed to new ideas that are different from those of their parents have begun to have separate political views.
You could have run the same story during the depression and the Vietnam War.
You could have run the same story during the depression and the Vietnam War.
14
Speaking of "you could write something similar during Depression/Vietnam" - no, you couldn't. During Depression era - and Vietnam - college students who came home to debate their parents were often better educated than the parents, thus making it quite a different generational conflict. I think pretty much everyone in the article has the same level of education as their parents - lower, if anything, since the article deals with freshmen/sophomores.
I really enjoyed this piece of journalism. Setting aside who is wrong or right, it was just such a lovely, utterly human slice of life - shedding light on how we're all trying to come to grips with our differences. Left me hopeful rather than resentful. And not much news these days day. So, thank you.
17
College campuses today are hotbeds of far left political thought. Any conservative speech is shouted down, and often violently. Political correctness reigns, promoted by professors and administrators that preach to a choir of single minded students. Don't believe me? Visit any college campus and try to find a Republican or conservative club. You won't. But you WILL find every Democrat, liberal, progressive and LGBTQ organization under the sun.
22
That is just plain B.S., Paul. The Koch brothers freaks and other "conservatives" have been buying up professor seats at colleges/universities across the country for 40+ years and privatizing major university research. That is a BIG part of the problem. Academics love money, too. Thanks to the real thinkers who have not "sold out" to the Robber Barons.
44
Which specific college or university are you most familiar with? Are you currently a student?
10
To all of you who use the term "politically correct" like it's a curse: You know what "political correctness" means, right? The audacity to say "all men are created equal", like in the Declaration of Independence. And you know who complains when all people are treated equally, right? The white Christian men who have been enjoying special privileges like being picked first for every team and being paid more for no reason, and are frustrated to now have to share the best of everything with blacks, Jews, women, gays, Muslims, non- Europeans, trans people, and so on.
Be aware that every time we hear you complain about "political correctness", we hear the complaint of someone used to not having to share respect realizing they can't hog it all for themselves, and feeling bitter about that.
We don't feel sorry for you, we feel you need to grow up. This is America, where all people are created equal. You don't like it when other people demand equal respect, equal access, equal pay? You want to mock that? Move elsewhere, where people like you still think it's wise to fight and kill members of other "tribes" who are only nominally different from themselves.
Be aware that every time we hear you complain about "political correctness", we hear the complaint of someone used to not having to share respect realizing they can't hog it all for themselves, and feeling bitter about that.
We don't feel sorry for you, we feel you need to grow up. This is America, where all people are created equal. You don't like it when other people demand equal respect, equal access, equal pay? You want to mock that? Move elsewhere, where people like you still think it's wise to fight and kill members of other "tribes" who are only nominally different from themselves.
19
Well I hope that College students are becoming engaged but I am not so sure. This spring I attended a town hall meeting held by our right wing U.S. Representative. More than 600 people showed up to express their opposition. The town hall was held on a Saturday afternoon less than a mile from the State University campus. If a single college age student bothered to attend, I did not see them. In that respect it was not encouraging.
6
Maybe they were too busy shutting down a pipeline or something.
2
If the meeting had been at the college, they'd have come. In the town which often makes college students feel unwelcome (it is full of adults, people college age people don't even want to understand, time for that later).
1
This is a very interesting article. The hope is that these students and their parents can meet in the middle, where we all need to be.
The one thing that irks me is hearing from another young male who "opposes abortion" because he's now catholic. It's clear that fox so-called news, evangelical christian men and the robber baron priests/administrators in the catholic church want women to stay in their "place" as "less than" men. They think they have a right to dictate what women around the world can do with their own bodies and lives.
I have news for you, boys. Until you can push a fetus through your body you have NO say in what any woman does. None.
The one thing that irks me is hearing from another young male who "opposes abortion" because he's now catholic. It's clear that fox so-called news, evangelical christian men and the robber baron priests/administrators in the catholic church want women to stay in their "place" as "less than" men. They think they have a right to dictate what women around the world can do with their own bodies and lives.
I have news for you, boys. Until you can push a fetus through your body you have NO say in what any woman does. None.
48
Amen. And despite what the church hierarchy dictates there are many Catholics with nuanced and even pro-choice views on the termination of pregnancy. People search for certainty in an uncertain world. Dogma offers comfort and meaning to some. It is very sad when sensitive young minds become closed off and fall under the spell of false doctrines of any sort.
2
Maybe we shouldn't all be in the middle. Maybe the left is the future and the right is the past?
I was just listening to some guy from the Heritage Foundation on NPR spouting bologna about how the conservatives should start talking about poverty and how we can fix it, and the left should start talking about the miracles of markets, and then we could all meet in the middle. Except conservatives will never do care about poverty, while a bunch of open minded liberals will talk about markets, and the Democratic centrists already are, so to take that advice is to push their propaganda for them.
I was just listening to some guy from the Heritage Foundation on NPR spouting bologna about how the conservatives should start talking about poverty and how we can fix it, and the left should start talking about the miracles of markets, and then we could all meet in the middle. Except conservatives will never do care about poverty, while a bunch of open minded liberals will talk about markets, and the Democratic centrists already are, so to take that advice is to push their propaganda for them.
5
I wouldn't be too concerned about the attitudes that students adopt. Contrary to what some believe, professors do not "pour ideas into students' minds". Rather, professors expose students to a wide variety of ideas, and there are both conservative and liberal views on campus, despite what the anti-education lobby says. The result is that students go through a phase of testing and perhaps adopting new states of mind. Some will become more conservative, some more liberal, many just more confused. But it's not permanent, regardless. The whole point of a liberal education is to teach students to constantly question and analyze the world as well as themselves. They will change their minds and points of view many times as a result, when education succeeds.
165
You calling it the anti-education lobby shows us that you are not objective on this issue. And, thinking that college professors present a balance of views is, to say the least, naïve.
8
I agree. Certainly, the professors at bible colleges do not present a variety of opinion. Or at colleges run by televangelists. It's funny how conservatives demand that secular colleges give away positions to conservatives simply because they are conservative, but they never say that conservative colleges should be hiring liberals.
9
Pull your head out of the sand. If you don't think there is an anti-education lobby in this country may o refer you to various school boards in say, Texas and Kansas for starters.
4
It's deja vu all over again. I came of age during the 1960s, a daughter of the Hills of Tennessee, people who lost their birthright (land and position) to the TVA. For that reason, my father loathed Democrats, although my mother was a registered Democrat. As a Boomer, I was fairly pleased to grow up in Knoxville instead of Muddy Creek. When I went to college, I shifted to the Left and away from parents politics. This article brought all those vacation "discussions" we had--many of which ended with yelling and slammed doors. I stayed on the Left. (To this day, I have cousins who remain baffled by my transformation.) I wondered what my parents would have thought of both Hillary Trump. My mother would have voted for Hillary, and I know my father would not have voted for Trump. Daddy was proud of his daughter and her achievements, and he would never have supported such an ignorant man who demeans almost all women by his words and deeds--although he would have understood Trump's pride in Ivanka.
27
Family is the debate team you don't get to pick. Expanding one's mind is the purpose of education and becoming passionate about new ideas is part of that.
But there are so many forms of education and parents have experience and have lived through riots, employment with all kinds of people of all kinds of backgrounds, friendships with all kinds of folks too.
Making assumptions that to be heard one must convince someone of something is best left for debate team. The success of one's ability to be heard is to believe in something so completely that your life, as you live it, becomes a model by which others can live and may be inspired to follow...or not.
But there are so many forms of education and parents have experience and have lived through riots, employment with all kinds of people of all kinds of backgrounds, friendships with all kinds of folks too.
Making assumptions that to be heard one must convince someone of something is best left for debate team. The success of one's ability to be heard is to believe in something so completely that your life, as you live it, becomes a model by which others can live and may be inspired to follow...or not.
7
Teach by example! Awesome.
1
I am Chinese, and have these arguments like Lin and Xue in this article with my folks. I'm older too, in my mid 30s, not just some recent idealistic college grad. I've actually drifted left over the years. In college, I was fairly hard core right wing, as my parents were and still are. But I don't think my ideals have changed. I have always been for policies that promote fairness, and go where the evidence goes. Take single payer health care for instance. Single payer has proven time and time and again to be more efficient than private insurance. It's better for the health of the nation, saves people money (yes, you're paying more taxes, but way less to insurance companies), saves businesses money, and when you have a healthier workforce, you are way more productive. All my parents think about are paying taxes but don't bat an inch when they go see the doctor on Medicare and don't realize who pays for their doctor, hospital visits and tests.
117
Thanks for this great post, Brian. America is a melting pot and often when people immigrate from other political systems they act like they would in their old country's system. You, like many youngish immigrants, recognize what makes America great - equitable tax participation, and closely watched politics, by all. That is the only way we can have a well-managed society with the social safety nets that have allowed America to thrive. It's good to know there are youngish people who think like you.
6
"and don't realize who pays for their doctor, hospital visits and tests"
Oh they know who is paying for it. They just pretend not to know because it doesn't fit in with their rigid interpretation of life. They will never admit to you or anyone else that they are taking advantage of "socialized medicine."
My grandparents brought their children up to hate government because they came from a place where the government was oppressive. It never occurred to them -- or their children -- that government could be used for the betterment of society and they refuse to acknowledge when it does.
Oh they know who is paying for it. They just pretend not to know because it doesn't fit in with their rigid interpretation of life. They will never admit to you or anyone else that they are taking advantage of "socialized medicine."
My grandparents brought their children up to hate government because they came from a place where the government was oppressive. It never occurred to them -- or their children -- that government could be used for the betterment of society and they refuse to acknowledge when it does.
4
They will if they ever need durable medical equipment for one of them. See, neither Medicare or Medicare HMO's pay a share of buying say a wheelchair. Just renting. Then they will forever pay 80%, you 20%, no realization that you can get a better one, same maker for between $500-$600 dollars. Now, I have used a wheelchair for 15 years outside the house. Dr prescribed. So, when Medicare came (chair was dangerous tiny front wheels, the tires kept popping off to an instant stop, I didn't.
So, called Medicare HMO we had, got a list of all the forms & script & how much they'd pay (80%). I heard my hubby say 'buy' multiple times. Got it, waited 7 months for first bill which was about $10 a month. To RENT. I called them, they said rent, I explained no buy. They said computer says rent, I said fix computer. I bought this (& painted the spokes purple & glittered them, don't do that if I rent something). Now HMO says they only rent, we said we said buy, was never corrected. Medicare says rent. Company says you can rent to own. Young married during rent to own heyday. Always more expensive. Told em that. Read about it. You have to pay 13 monthly payments, then make the rent to own deal, then pay 13 monthly installments with the others wiped out,but,not returned. I call that crooked. Told my brother (who worked for the GAO for 40 years) asked if he smelled kickbacks, he just laughed. Doesn't talk about his job at all. So, I won't pay, they won't listen. It's a typical republican set up.
So, called Medicare HMO we had, got a list of all the forms & script & how much they'd pay (80%). I heard my hubby say 'buy' multiple times. Got it, waited 7 months for first bill which was about $10 a month. To RENT. I called them, they said rent, I explained no buy. They said computer says rent, I said fix computer. I bought this (& painted the spokes purple & glittered them, don't do that if I rent something). Now HMO says they only rent, we said we said buy, was never corrected. Medicare says rent. Company says you can rent to own. Young married during rent to own heyday. Always more expensive. Told em that. Read about it. You have to pay 13 monthly payments, then make the rent to own deal, then pay 13 monthly installments with the others wiped out,but,not returned. I call that crooked. Told my brother (who worked for the GAO for 40 years) asked if he smelled kickbacks, he just laughed. Doesn't talk about his job at all. So, I won't pay, they won't listen. It's a typical republican set up.
This has been going on forever, and my generation fought with our parents more angrily about Vietnam than any issue since, although Trump is definitely a contender. I'm 59 and have skipped all holiday visits home because I don't want to listen to or fight with my Fox-fan parents. There is no respectful discourse, and my dad cannot respect my request that we forgo politics at dinner, so there we are. Or are not, in this case. It's a shame.
92
Once WE put socially conscious democrats and independents back in charge of OUR governments - and prevent WW3 - your parents will understand and thank you, Ms. Murphy. Meantime, thank you for your courage. It takes a lot of courage to buck the family and I speak from experience.
5
Why can't you just accept your parents the way they are? At their age, they won't change and having to listen to their rants is not inflicting permanent damage on you. On the contrary, your tolerance of your parents may make them softer, while demonstratively advertising your uncompromising opposition will only harden the wall between you.
More than likely, you will have regrets once they are no longer with you. By that time, it will be too late. Show them that you love them now, even if you don't agree with them on everything. You are much more likely to bring them around to see the world from your angle that way.
More than likely, you will have regrets once they are no longer with you. By that time, it will be too late. Show them that you love them now, even if you don't agree with them on everything. You are much more likely to bring them around to see the world from your angle that way.
6
Kara,
You are talking to Kim--who is 59 years old and who writes that her father will not respect her request to refrain from political arguments at family holidays. This should not be a one way street. You should be directing your sage advice at least as much to Kim's dad.
You are talking to Kim--who is 59 years old and who writes that her father will not respect her request to refrain from political arguments at family holidays. This should not be a one way street. You should be directing your sage advice at least as much to Kim's dad.
2
where are the fathers in these stories?
85
The Times doesn't do men well.
16
We don't have conversations, we just yell and walk out of the room.
1
@ DaveD
Huge points on the snark-o-meter. Evidence....facts? Not so much.
Huge points on the snark-o-meter. Evidence....facts? Not so much.
2
If Nicholas Duffee is an "opponent of abortion rights," I suggest that HE practice what HE preaches when HE becomes pregnant.
103
Thank you.
9
Huh? Are you implying that one has to be a woman to have a conscience? To be against what one thinks is murder? It's an inconvenient truth that babies form in women only, but that doesn't mean men can't oppose abortion on moral grounds.
Btw, I'm personally pro-choice, but I understand both sides of the issue. You should try to broaden your perspective once in a while.
Btw, I'm personally pro-choice, but I understand both sides of the issue. You should try to broaden your perspective once in a while.
12
The New York Times has published more than one article opining that pregnancy is no longer restricted to women, since being a woman is no longer a matter of biology but of "identity." I agree completely that the voices of women (as traditionally defined) should be predominant in discussions of reproductive rights; however, knee-jerk supporters of the transgender movement should be aware that this idea is now considered transphobic.
2
Dear Abiola, I love you going on vacation with your parents and being sad about the dolphins in the pens. You have a good heart.
17
I went on a cruise years ago, couldn't wait to see the dolphins. Saw them often, swimming free, riding the wake off the bow of the ship, never in pens. I understand, you wanted to see dolphins, not captives.
Oh, I'm 66. So, it's nice to read about a young woman who thinks much like me. The Boomer. Who had the same problems with her parents. I wonder what happened to all the hippies? Probably life, it usually does. I hope your life doesn't make you opt for pens over freedom.
Remember this though. Someday, long in the future I hope, you will be an orphan. Happened to me at 38. My parents died 5 months apart. Don't leave anything unsaid. Anything you can't take back. Even if they grow up some between now & then & agree with you more (most do). Cause, once gone, the ache stays forever. Go hug em for me.
Oh, I'm 66. So, it's nice to read about a young woman who thinks much like me. The Boomer. Who had the same problems with her parents. I wonder what happened to all the hippies? Probably life, it usually does. I hope your life doesn't make you opt for pens over freedom.
Remember this though. Someday, long in the future I hope, you will be an orphan. Happened to me at 38. My parents died 5 months apart. Don't leave anything unsaid. Anything you can't take back. Even if they grow up some between now & then & agree with you more (most do). Cause, once gone, the ache stays forever. Go hug em for me.
Sounds like the holidays are once again this year going to be hotbeds of political fights!
2
Well NYT I thought that according to your reports only working class whites without education voted for Trump. Could it also be the case that wealthy people voted for him as well? That he represents the wealthy? That it wasn't just the revolt of a few poor people but a corrupt system in general that you helped feed by never giving Bernie Sanders due attention or respect and obsessing over Hilary as the only "viable" candidate and Trump as a circus clown? Maybe an intelligent examination of the actual issues would have helped.
21
Justice, if you believe the NYT didn't accurately portray the typical Trump voter then you are not a discerning reader of the NYT. There are many articles, Op Ed's, and editorials about who Trump voters are. They made it clear that it's no longer an economic divide, it's a cultural divide.
37
Except that the children of those wealthy parents who voted for Trump probably also voted for Trump. Do you think many in the families of the Koch brothers voted for Clinton?
4
Bernie Sanders is a traitor, just like The Con Don, Justice. He and his campaign workers knew about Russian interference in OUR election because Russians were "botting" their facebook pages with horrendous misinformation about the popular winner, "Ms. Hillary Rodham Clinton". He will never get my vote even as the major media tries to force-feed him to us.
I might, however, vote for Senator Collins (R) as the first female President of the United States of America. She showed her human side, as she often does, when she helped defeat destruction of America's Affordable Health Care Act last week. SHE is a true patriotic American who wants Everybody to Win. That's how it should be no matter what your economic/social standing in America.
I might, however, vote for Senator Collins (R) as the first female President of the United States of America. She showed her human side, as she often does, when she helped defeat destruction of America's Affordable Health Care Act last week. SHE is a true patriotic American who wants Everybody to Win. That's how it should be no matter what your economic/social standing in America.
5
One thing that's ignored in these political fights is the most important: the parents have done a wonderful job in raising their sons and daughters. I feel that both the parent and the child can agree on that.
I've worked in politics for years and could never get this point across to any of the people whose campaigns I worked on: start with the similarities between people and work outward rather than starting with differences.
Gun control? Let's start with what we agree on: that there are far too many innocent people being killed with guns.
Abortion? We can all agree that it's a difficult and terrible decision for a woman to make.
Trump? He has a tenacious loyalty to his family.
See what we all agree on? Start from there and move outward toward the more difficult solutions and you'll be surprised on how similar people are!
I've worked in politics for years and could never get this point across to any of the people whose campaigns I worked on: start with the similarities between people and work outward rather than starting with differences.
Gun control? Let's start with what we agree on: that there are far too many innocent people being killed with guns.
Abortion? We can all agree that it's a difficult and terrible decision for a woman to make.
Trump? He has a tenacious loyalty to his family.
See what we all agree on? Start from there and move outward toward the more difficult solutions and you'll be surprised on how similar people are!
31
Deciding whether or not to have an abortion is a serious matter, but certainly not all women experience it as "difficult and terrible." For me it was a straightforward decision.
If you are looking for places to start with agreement on abortion, maybe a better statement would be "Unwanted pregnancies should be avoided if at all possible."
If you are looking for places to start with agreement on abortion, maybe a better statement would be "Unwanted pregnancies should be avoided if at all possible."
63
Won't know about 'his' true loyalty to 'his' family until the will is read. I can see him chortling as 'he' signs it. One dollar to each kid, all companies (including Ivanka's 'he' owns 51% of) sold for cash, all money to the white supremacist cause. We will know then. Oh, back taxes to be paid by the kids.
@M: Yup. Not all women are traumatized over having an abortion. Many are incredibly relieved.
4
It's fascinating to watch children evolve their political views. I grew up in a 'moderate' political environment, one parent registered D, the other R. They came of age during WWII when those party labels meant different things. Neither voted the party line, and that's what I took away. When I turned 21 (in 1975) and registered, I read the platforms of both parties- and rejected both. I decided to register as an Independent, and I, too, never voted a party line. Trump changed all of that. In my 20s and 30s, I would have labelled myself somewhat fiscally conservative, but socially/culturally liberal. Today, I place myself squarely left of center and the Republican party has lost my vote for the foreseeable future. I even re-registered as a D so that I could vote in future primaries. My vote is informed by both research, and a lifetime of real-world experience. My advice to my own children was that they had an obligation to register and vote in every election. I told them why I chose to be an "I" and I encouraged them to consider the issues, the office and the person running, regardless of their party. I'm not sure if they registered as I or D- but they are, like many urban, educated millennials- definitely in the liberal camp. We have lengthy and lively discussions about politics. Regardless of their voting history, I doubt either of them- both responsible, hard-working young women, will ever vote "R" again. The R's sexism and misoguny has turned them away.
68
I'm 66. My Dad gave me the same lecture twice. Before I voted the first time (crazy year, I could vote local & state, not Federal). Then again not long before he died. Was a life long Republican, died in '89 very unhappy with them. I asked why he said research it. That got so much easier after personal computers & the internet came alone. I've always been an Independent (now unenrolled in MA cause some group called Unite Independents [idiot name] stole it, then disappeared). Come to mass, you can register unenrolled & vote in which primary you want, then automatically go back to unenrolled as you walk out the door, no forms or cards. Last election & voted (first probably only time) republican, to vote against 'him'.
This last election is the only time my husband of 45 years. & I argued. Normally we don't discuss politics. Each election is something each of us should figure out ourselves. Though it feels a little futile when one votes one way, the other the other. It felt too important this time. I finally convinced him that 'he' would not help the area hubby grew up in (rural southeastern Ohio). He didn't vote for 'him'. Now he's glad. Says it would have hurt too much to be conned so badly. Now he'd rather just not think about it. I'm trying to form an army, Obligated by the Founding Fathers, that I call The Freedom Warriors AKA Citizens' Army. I don't believe in waiting for '18 or '20. That this regime will just stop or control any elections.
This last election is the only time my husband of 45 years. & I argued. Normally we don't discuss politics. Each election is something each of us should figure out ourselves. Though it feels a little futile when one votes one way, the other the other. It felt too important this time. I finally convinced him that 'he' would not help the area hubby grew up in (rural southeastern Ohio). He didn't vote for 'him'. Now he's glad. Says it would have hurt too much to be conned so badly. Now he'd rather just not think about it. I'm trying to form an army, Obligated by the Founding Fathers, that I call The Freedom Warriors AKA Citizens' Army. I don't believe in waiting for '18 or '20. That this regime will just stop or control any elections.
By the way 45% of registered voters are now independent, far outnumbering any party.
If you are an independent you don't have these problems. Independents know that nothing is ever black and white and the only practical way forward is through compromise, which constantly keeps evolving.
I would have no problem with any rational position on either side of the spectrum, as long as there is a will of having a basis for discussion.
I would have no problem with any rational position on either side of the spectrum, as long as there is a will of having a basis for discussion.
29
Really. Being "independent" means you are somehow more clear thinking? After this political season, if you can't see the fundamental evil on the GOP side, you must be blind, deaf and dumb as well.
17
I'm not sure where you live, but in this country many city, country, and state elections essentially belong to one party. In most places if you're an independent you can't vote in primaries which essentially choose who will be elected.
Most people want the right to be involved in this choice.
Most people want the right to be involved in this choice.
2
Craigoh,
I don't think I am blind, since I could read your comment, I may be deaf, at least my wife keeps telling me so every other day and as far as dumb is concerned: Already Socrates had the insight that there were many more things he didn't know than things that he knew. So, yes, I am taking pride in hopefully being the dumbest person on the planet, although there are many of my peers who make the same claim. I have to fight them for it every day.
So, now I have proven you mostly correct, may I just make one more incredibly dumb suggestion: Perhaps shutting down all communication with Trump voters may not be the most constructive thing. Somehow I feel that that would only solidify their defiance and close their ears even more. Of course, it would have been much better to communicate with them BEFORE the election, to better understand their concerns and convince them that at least having a Democratic president would have been a better outcome, but it's too late for that now.
All I'm saying is, being independent means making a conscious effort of understanding the other side. You would be surprised how effective that is when the next elections come around.
I don't think I am blind, since I could read your comment, I may be deaf, at least my wife keeps telling me so every other day and as far as dumb is concerned: Already Socrates had the insight that there were many more things he didn't know than things that he knew. So, yes, I am taking pride in hopefully being the dumbest person on the planet, although there are many of my peers who make the same claim. I have to fight them for it every day.
So, now I have proven you mostly correct, may I just make one more incredibly dumb suggestion: Perhaps shutting down all communication with Trump voters may not be the most constructive thing. Somehow I feel that that would only solidify their defiance and close their ears even more. Of course, it would have been much better to communicate with them BEFORE the election, to better understand their concerns and convince them that at least having a Democratic president would have been a better outcome, but it's too late for that now.
All I'm saying is, being independent means making a conscious effort of understanding the other side. You would be surprised how effective that is when the next elections come around.
4
Really interesting!
6
Thank goodness today's parents are used to Americans having political disagreements but still, my advice is to be careful how you debate. Be passionate and defend your position but don't take it personally with a relative because you're stuck with 'em. Unfortunately my stepfather & I never survived our fights over Vietnam and for decades after the slightest little topic would set him off and it would be 1969 around the dinner table all over again.
10
Thank you for having the courage to stand up for what's right. If your step dad still contends we should have stuck it out in Vietnam, that's an irrational stubbornness rooted in his anxiety in his relationship with you as a stepchild.
4
Excellent journalism.
8
"Asian-Americans are touted as a model minority, which has sheltered us from some of the effects of modern-day racism."
Hmm...maybe some of the other minorities could learn something from that statement. Mainstream culture is the mainstream, and acting outside said mainstream will come with consequences.
Hmm...maybe some of the other minorities could learn something from that statement. Mainstream culture is the mainstream, and acting outside said mainstream will come with consequences.
10
Meaningless statement: "Mainstream culture is the mainstream," and it's riffing off of a comment that's blatantly not true, as many Asian-Americans are not at all "sheltered from the effects of modern-day racism." Typical of this day and age: take a personal opinion or outright falsehood, then base your argument on it in an attempt to attain credulity.
4
Her comment was on Asian Americans benefiting from racial hierarchies more so than other ethnic groups, and you turn that around and blame minorities for racism that they face? How clueless and offensive.
6
Dude... this is pretty racist.
5