Well these boys might be surprised if Pence takes over and they all have to go to Church on Sunday. A bit restrictive perhaps.
2
Young Trumpers are arguably a quasi-punk Alternative Culture. Look up artist Sabo at UnsavoryAgents (e.g., "Trump Om"). This is our art.
What does the left have to offer? Nothing. Nothing but failure. They let down the black community and cities. No free speech at universities. Corruption, even Bernie and Jane. Oh, and whining about everything.
CNN has been tasteless and dishonest about Trump for two years, disgusting, hateful. Trump body slams them on Twitter, they fall apart. They had it coming but don’t get it.
We have the presidency, both houses, and will control the supreme court for generations. We are taking the battle to universities and winning. We are neutralizing the left-leaning media and winning.
You had the media, academia, government, huge money (including Wall Street), Hollywood, and the institutional welfare state sliming for Hillary. You had Occupy Wall Street, BLM, riots, and the owners of Facebook and Twitter.
We had each other, some rallies, Trump, and his Twitter account, and all of you mocking us. We made phone calls from Trump Tower. We memed. We won.
Trump will win in 2020, and in 2024 one of his kids may run. Ivanka will be what, 43 years old? The picture of grace, tolerance, beauty, business acumen, and good sense. The anti-Hillary. She has an office in the White House, people. Imagine her running with her dad, brothers, and husband by her side.
Compare the voices of those two women. No contest. America will eat up Ivanka Trump with a spoon.
What does the left have to offer? Nothing. Nothing but failure. They let down the black community and cities. No free speech at universities. Corruption, even Bernie and Jane. Oh, and whining about everything.
CNN has been tasteless and dishonest about Trump for two years, disgusting, hateful. Trump body slams them on Twitter, they fall apart. They had it coming but don’t get it.
We have the presidency, both houses, and will control the supreme court for generations. We are taking the battle to universities and winning. We are neutralizing the left-leaning media and winning.
You had the media, academia, government, huge money (including Wall Street), Hollywood, and the institutional welfare state sliming for Hillary. You had Occupy Wall Street, BLM, riots, and the owners of Facebook and Twitter.
We had each other, some rallies, Trump, and his Twitter account, and all of you mocking us. We made phone calls from Trump Tower. We memed. We won.
Trump will win in 2020, and in 2024 one of his kids may run. Ivanka will be what, 43 years old? The picture of grace, tolerance, beauty, business acumen, and good sense. The anti-Hillary. She has an office in the White House, people. Imagine her running with her dad, brothers, and husband by her side.
Compare the voices of those two women. No contest. America will eat up Ivanka Trump with a spoon.
6
It seems to me that the author of this article is attempting to make a laundry list of progressive left caricatures of heterogenous center (including liberal) to right leaning groups under the umbrella of the word "alternative". As far as I can tell the only similarity is reaction to a brand of progressive politics amplified by fairly recent media consolidation into New York, San Francisco, Washington that isn't only on the front page where there is some diversity of choice in editorial slant - but if you want to read about tech or tv or video games almost all of the commentary is coming from 20 somethings living in places like Brooklyn who have a self selecting trajectory that could with a high degree of confidence predict their views which are often shared acting as a scold on even the most inane topic. Perhaps that homogeneity could help to explain why "alternative" media exists. Much of it is trashy like the Sun but some of it has sway even with liberals who I see posting Heatstreet and Campusreform on their Twitter.
Punk is dead. That button proves it, if anything. Im a real punk. I know punk rock, and its dead people!
In fact, I will download this picture and use it to prove that punk is dead when people ask me.
In fact, I will download this picture and use it to prove that punk is dead when people ask me.
3
Who, in their right minds, would ever want to be governed by alt right Bannon clones after experiencing the chaotic and dangerous, intellectually bankrupt, amateur hour governance that has daily played out since January 20th. Let these faux theorist wannabes play out their extremist fantasies on some deserted island where the havoc created will only harm themselves.
3
While we got the label thing going please call me:
" The Alt-Alt where rational Flourishes"
enough : demagogues are demagogues
Fight fire with facts.
When they go low 45 and crew go lower....into the muck...
Covered in slime
Cream and rational discourse rise to the top.
Labels attract followers, thinking optional Think lemmings.
Leaders lead. Thinking required. Think Socrates, Burke, Madison, Jefferson, Descartes, FDR, Truman, Reagan, Obama
" The Alt-Alt where rational Flourishes"
enough : demagogues are demagogues
Fight fire with facts.
When they go low 45 and crew go lower....into the muck...
Covered in slime
Cream and rational discourse rise to the top.
Labels attract followers, thinking optional Think lemmings.
Leaders lead. Thinking required. Think Socrates, Burke, Madison, Jefferson, Descartes, FDR, Truman, Reagan, Obama
1
This is too aggravating. I had to watch "Stranger Things" for the Hugos a few days ago, and my review was that for non-Stephen King Stephen King it was very well done. In my definition "camp" means some kind of mockery of the source material, which was not there. The show was legitimately scary and all the performances had heart. The author is advised to watch Star Trek III (again) and keep in mind that Leonard Nimoy, who was only the director, thought the theme of the movie was how far you would go to help a friend. Another person commented that Search For Spock has no story, which is not Stranger Things's problem.
1
It is not "alt." It is main stream conservative thinking that can trace its roots back to the Birchers, Goldwater and Nixon, then Reagan, Gingrich, Bush 43 and now Trump.
And the inversion maneuver is not new either; it was "patented" by Karl Rove and was called Rovian circular logic.
Sorry kid, but we got there first.
And the inversion maneuver is not new either; it was "patented" by Karl Rove and was called Rovian circular logic.
Sorry kid, but we got there first.
3
I find it difficult to believe how any right-thinking person, young or old, would join a super-conservative party that regards marriage between two same-sex individuals as "immoral" or unnatural.
3
The alt-right is to the American political mainstream as herbal magic potion healers are to cancer research. We don't care what they call themselves. They can refer to themselves as cosmic explorers--it has no bearing on the reality and truth that they're your basic haters. America has always had these folks. They hide behind the flag, sheets and the cross. Perhaps the one difference between then and now is that the Republican Party is thoroughly septic. It is a Zombie party.
3
This proves that the world is 'upside-down'. The far-right used to be a fringe; but with crooked lying Trump at their vanguard, relevance seems guaranteed. Sure hope it's only for the briefest of times.
3
But what do the Koch brothers really want because they are the ones financing these idiots power grab.
3
I keep forgetting. Racism is "in" this year.
2
Conservatives are rapidly overcoming their natural resistance to the reality of politics in the 21st century: they can only succeed by becoming as whiny and self-absorbed as liberals.
2
They are not punks, but boneheads. Different time, same ideas.
3
We're worried. America is flirting with fascism, again. And, few want to talk about it. Too few know much about America's previous experience with fascism. Many say it can't happen here. But, it did. American fascism was born shortly after the Great Depression. It paused when the Japanese fascists bombed Pearl Harbor. It's been hibernating. Far right? Alt-right? Fascists? What's in a name? This time there's no jackboots, no Swastikas. Dig deeper.. .they're back.
3
Yeah, they are all proud until the big downfall that's coming! When their "naked president" has to either resign in disgrace or be jailed!
The fact is they are the minority.
The fact is they are the minority.
3
When the left doesn't stand by absolute protection of hate speech of all kinds - an ACLU standard of the past, well, by definition then they are the uptight ones, and anyone opposed to them is more "punk rock"
They need one more piece of "flair" - a button that reads - Boring And Ignorant.
What a bunch of clowns!
What a bunch of clowns!
3
A lot of these alt righters are really basement dwelling, contrarian losers. They have really no long term successful professional prospects. They love anime and video games and junk food and making people angry. Getting a reaction is their validation. This notion of a unified "alt right" is not real. They're a pastiche of baby boomer racists with money and influence, born out opposition to the counterculture of the 1960s, and internet millenials that can't stand PC culture and whiny, over-educated liberals. The kids they resented in high school support Hillary and Bernie, so naturally they want to be the opposite.... These people are just a tiny sliver of the Trumpian base. You've got your priorities all wrong. You want to figure out why we got 45, get off the internet and into the bars and town meetings in small town America.... The NY Times just seem like they're missing the point when they worry about this stuff. You guys can't just admit you have no idea whats going on in America... get with the program
3
Comparing the alt-eight nationalists to anything resembling punk is enough to make Johhny Rotten of the Sex Piatols want to punch not just those who think they're punk but likely the writer as well. Punk was a complete and total rejection of Thatcher administration and the right wing. There's absolutely no way anyone in the pink movement in the truest terms would think the American right is punk.
4
Mr. Herman has a point but let's not latch onto the word "alternative" too much. We've touched a couple of cultural cues but dodged the main issue. Yes, Nirvana was a co-opted influence that both created and destroyed a generation. Does anyone remember this one:
Fill me in on your new vision
Wake me up with indecision
Help me trust your might and wisdom
Yes I eat cow - I am not proud
Shakespeare. That was where the "alt" scene started though. Let's not confuse the heroin tinged apoplectic apathy of the grunge 90's with anything that Alex Jones has ever said though. Appropriation only exists in a fundamental misunderstanding of cultural evolution. Maybe someone born in the mid-90's doesn't get it. They miss the meaning in the same way someone might wear a "Misty Mountain Hop" t-shirt without ever reading Tolkien.
At the same time, you can hardly look at punk influenced musicians like Ted Leo or Scythian as apolitical or easily commercialized. I've bet you've never even heard of Inchigeelagh. Even Green Day essentially did a political operetta in American Idiot. Sorry. Not everything fits a "Dancing with the Stars" TV model.
So look here: You can educate the youth about the past but they will always form their own present. The aging simply look silly for trying to appropriate something that's not their's to possess. Namely, the future. The goal however is to help the youth understand rather than manipulate them for personal gain. That's where I think we've gone off target.
Fill me in on your new vision
Wake me up with indecision
Help me trust your might and wisdom
Yes I eat cow - I am not proud
Shakespeare. That was where the "alt" scene started though. Let's not confuse the heroin tinged apoplectic apathy of the grunge 90's with anything that Alex Jones has ever said though. Appropriation only exists in a fundamental misunderstanding of cultural evolution. Maybe someone born in the mid-90's doesn't get it. They miss the meaning in the same way someone might wear a "Misty Mountain Hop" t-shirt without ever reading Tolkien.
At the same time, you can hardly look at punk influenced musicians like Ted Leo or Scythian as apolitical or easily commercialized. I've bet you've never even heard of Inchigeelagh. Even Green Day essentially did a political operetta in American Idiot. Sorry. Not everything fits a "Dancing with the Stars" TV model.
So look here: You can educate the youth about the past but they will always form their own present. The aging simply look silly for trying to appropriate something that's not their's to possess. Namely, the future. The goal however is to help the youth understand rather than manipulate them for personal gain. That's where I think we've gone off target.
2
Being pro-Trump is about as Punk rock as it gets these days.
2
Boys club.
3
Lame!
1
I was "raised right" and that's why I'm part of The Left.
2
The original punk rockers of the 1970s wanted nothing to do with the Nazis, the white supremacists and skinheads. Punk's anti-establishment had nothing to do with ethnicity and race. Today's alternate right wants to appropriate punk like they appropriated hate and alternative facts.
2
The new fascists can co-opt the term "alternative". But they don't get to also be "cool" or "hip" (which they seem so desperately to want). They will remain ugly and hate-filled. All they will have accomplished with their "alternative" posturing is stripping any positive or creative aspects of counter-culture from the word.
3
There are zealots on both sides of this debate and the rest of the country is so fed up! Alt Right or Far Left it is all so far removed from most people's reality. It seems very far from life here in Detroit.
1
Gee, a group of social media outlets disagrees with your self satisfied and self regarding assumptions, and suddenly it's the crisis of our times.
Thomas Frank's definition of alternative as "anti-corporate" is a good one. However, alternative means something other than the normal state of affairs. Power that seeks to maintain itself is the normal state of affairs, and it offers violent suppression if threatened. A right winger by definition wishes to maintain the system, not really change it. The system always uses violence and is for correct thinking. Oppose violent suppression of ideas and you can call yourself alternative. Otherwise, the cops are on your side, then you are mainstream.
1
This is how all totalitarian governments start. In our country, settled and populated from its beginning as a series of colonies by dissenters, this is especially appalling. It always been a country of independent yet united states, hence the name. We have been marked by our primarily middle of the road politics, which seem to be the only way we can get laws we all can live with passed.
By the time the far right adherents figure this out they'll discover that 21st century robber barons have seized power and lots of luck to the rest of us including you know who's supporters.
By the time the far right adherents figure this out they'll discover that 21st century robber barons have seized power and lots of luck to the rest of us including you know who's supporters.
2
Then of course there is the "Plan 9 From Outer Space" version of camp where the creative team cannot live up to the source material no matter how hard they try. That's a matter of taste.
1
Why is there an anarchy pin in a group of pins that supports republicanism and the republican party? Does that not go against the very meaning of anarchy?
2
More to the main point--
Listen, I remember the early 1990s. I was in graduate school. "Alternative" pretty clearly meant at that point that the radio station/MTV was going to bestow the blessing of commerciality on music that could not have previously got a hearing outside of a college station and to say, "We don't really know what this means, but it's different. It's sensitive." The blessing of commerciality has been bestowed upon the alt-right but AFAIK they named themselves that because the conservative establishment was too rigid. What our writer is trying to get at is the idea of "We are worth listening to because the liberal establishment doesn't want you to hear us". That is Eminem's "Without Me". None of the 1990s "alternative" groups who signed with a major label wanted to project enough self-belief to put it quite like that.
Listen, I remember the early 1990s. I was in graduate school. "Alternative" pretty clearly meant at that point that the radio station/MTV was going to bestow the blessing of commerciality on music that could not have previously got a hearing outside of a college station and to say, "We don't really know what this means, but it's different. It's sensitive." The blessing of commerciality has been bestowed upon the alt-right but AFAIK they named themselves that because the conservative establishment was too rigid. What our writer is trying to get at is the idea of "We are worth listening to because the liberal establishment doesn't want you to hear us". That is Eminem's "Without Me". None of the 1990s "alternative" groups who signed with a major label wanted to project enough self-belief to put it quite like that.
1
This sort of culture criticism is irksome and baffling. Irksome because it talks around and around the same (possibly true but incredibly obvious) 'insights' and over and over gain and baffling because it's hard to imagine that anyone takes this seriously as an intellectual activity.
The author is evidently to young and too historically ill-informed to be aware that the phenomenon of a powerful and entrenched culture co-opting a seeming insurgent one is as old as time and is one which occurs with increasing frequency as the pace of cultural churn, the redefining of what is new, as increased. The word 'alternative' circa 1990 might just as well be 'groovy' circa 1965.
To the extent that anything new is happening it is that the fragmentation of society is counter-intuitively greater as the alleged knitting-together of society via the internet has increased.
The author is evidently to young and too historically ill-informed to be aware that the phenomenon of a powerful and entrenched culture co-opting a seeming insurgent one is as old as time and is one which occurs with increasing frequency as the pace of cultural churn, the redefining of what is new, as increased. The word 'alternative' circa 1990 might just as well be 'groovy' circa 1965.
To the extent that anything new is happening it is that the fragmentation of society is counter-intuitively greater as the alleged knitting-together of society via the internet has increased.
Thanks and a tip of the hat to Eric Blair.
6
Minitrue is here.
The United States is in decline.
Will it fall?
The United States is in decline.
Will it fall?
5
It's the alternative FACTS culture. For morons.
35
The appeal of the 'alt' in alt-right is that it isn't simply a pose. Like the left alternatives that preceded it, these conspiracists and later day fascists object not only to social taboos and aspirations, they also flaunt long held legal norms. Leftists who thumbed their noses at the "mainstream" despised careerism and tract housing but they also longed for looser drug laws and for forms of equality beyond the horizon of current US law. The alt-right too has dropped the pretense of a return to traditionalism that their forefathers (the real posers) spent decades embellishing. Richard Spencer laughs at American exceptionalism and is more than happy to find a model not in the pastoral America of yesteryear but in National Socialism. For Spencer and his ilk, the "again" in Trump's slogan is just one more wink from the King Troll. This distinguishes this movement from the '90s corporate appropriation of the punk scene. It means that the left needs different kinds of responses. The mainstream is ready for a takeover from the left.
22
This article is symbolic of what's happening in our country on various levels. Kids wear shirts with bands on them that they've never listened to. Celebrities wear and promote sneakers that are rooted in subcultures like skateboarding without any knowledge of that history, I.E. Vans. So why wouldn't the political powers highjack those same cultural elements to try and push their political ideals as something new and fresh and edgy? In reality they're just the same people in power doing whatever they can to hold on to power. The people today pushing the "alternative" mantra are the furthest thing from what "alternative" is or ever was. It's unfortunate that so many Americans have bought in to this uneducated approach to politics and culture.
17
Sure. All Paul Ryan needs to do is publicly listen to some more Rage Against The Machine while lifting, bros.
Google Tom Morello on Paul Ryan if you're not getting the reference.
Google Tom Morello on Paul Ryan if you're not getting the reference.
17
Paul Ryno was just using Ayn Rand as a "beard". He is NO conservative.
1
It’s always a challenge to make the complex simple. Oliver Wendell Holmes opined,
‘I would not give a fig for the simplicity on this side of complexity, but I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity.’
With that precaution may I suggest that the authoritarian mindset can be summed up in six words.
I know, You don’t, My call.
And the progressive mindset, also in six (sort of).
I don’t (as in know), You could (help), Together better (as in whatever situation we find ourselves).
The first set implies there is a certainty that has been revealed to the authority figure. The second implies that no one knows nor can know and that the only certainty is that there is no certainty. That to insist on certainty leads to a future littered with lies and infamy.
When multiple authority figures all display the mindset ‘I know, You don’t, My call’ you have a recipe for violence and chaos . . . unless you have a common enemy or a scapegoat.
In Hitler’s early days he was one of several alternative pundits. The common enemy was the German establishment and the scapegoat the Jew. After Hitler consolidated his power he murdered his other alternative competitors.
In the unlikely (but possible) event of increasing dysfunction of US institutions combined with the weakening of liberal / progressives, one alternative pundit will likely rise above the rest. If this happens the life expectancy for most of the other alternatives will surely be short.
‘I would not give a fig for the simplicity on this side of complexity, but I would give my life for the simplicity on the other side of complexity.’
With that precaution may I suggest that the authoritarian mindset can be summed up in six words.
I know, You don’t, My call.
And the progressive mindset, also in six (sort of).
I don’t (as in know), You could (help), Together better (as in whatever situation we find ourselves).
The first set implies there is a certainty that has been revealed to the authority figure. The second implies that no one knows nor can know and that the only certainty is that there is no certainty. That to insist on certainty leads to a future littered with lies and infamy.
When multiple authority figures all display the mindset ‘I know, You don’t, My call’ you have a recipe for violence and chaos . . . unless you have a common enemy or a scapegoat.
In Hitler’s early days he was one of several alternative pundits. The common enemy was the German establishment and the scapegoat the Jew. After Hitler consolidated his power he murdered his other alternative competitors.
In the unlikely (but possible) event of increasing dysfunction of US institutions combined with the weakening of liberal / progressives, one alternative pundit will likely rise above the rest. If this happens the life expectancy for most of the other alternatives will surely be short.
18
Thank you, a very nice exercise of reasoning.
1
Thank you, Mr. Herrman, for this brilliant and nuanced analysis. Your description of the "alt-right" movement is the only one I have read that makes complete sense to me. We keep asking what the Republicans want, as they dismantle all help and support for ordinary people. We keep asking what does Trump want as he careens from one lie to the next. Post-election Democrats and their critics were wringing their hands over how they had ignored the suffering of the middle of the country (partly true). Your article uncovers the ugly underside of all of this -- a voracious desire for power at any cost. Racism and misogyny are two pillars of this goal. And just like the Nazis and North Korea's regime, their thirst for power will never be slaked. Just like the Trump family's lust for money, power is addicting, and the addict always wants more. With any addiction, the ultimate end is ruin, not only for the addict, but those in his/her circle. In this case, that circle is our country and our world.
30
The Righties do have a problem here.
They want to replicate the 60's "Summer of Love" but all they can offer is a "Winter of Hate".
That is a problem.
(Full Disclosure: I am 70, female and atheist. And I do remember the 60's.)
This is a problem within the Institution of Culture.
The 60's offered a new dress code: bell-bottoms, tie-dye, lotsa hair and slim, athletic bodies, beads, sassy walking, friendliness and daring.
Our heroes were screaming for inclusion, back-lit by the burning of draft cards.
Fast forward: The Righties are offering thrift-store Nazi uniforms, they are bald or deliberate Skinheads, they are fat, their men look like nerds, their women look like they shop at Ross Dress For Less, glitz is verboten, they lumber, their t-shirts don't hide their tummies and (hear me, folks) baseball caps chop 20 i.q. points off everyone. They are a scowlly bunch with the look of the "Herd" mentality.
Their heroes are off in a back-room deciding who to evict from our society and their back-lighting is the glow of a cross burning on someone's lawn.
What's to love?
Again, I am 70, female and atheist. Exactly what does a "libertarian resistance with an authoritarian program" have that could possibly interest me? I ask that question in all seriousness. The Right is not only lacking in class and style - they are ethically vacuous. Their hate is sneaky and predatory. Trump fits the bill for them perfectly - and so will Pence.
No "scrappy outsiders" there.
Just scrap.
Pax.
They want to replicate the 60's "Summer of Love" but all they can offer is a "Winter of Hate".
That is a problem.
(Full Disclosure: I am 70, female and atheist. And I do remember the 60's.)
This is a problem within the Institution of Culture.
The 60's offered a new dress code: bell-bottoms, tie-dye, lotsa hair and slim, athletic bodies, beads, sassy walking, friendliness and daring.
Our heroes were screaming for inclusion, back-lit by the burning of draft cards.
Fast forward: The Righties are offering thrift-store Nazi uniforms, they are bald or deliberate Skinheads, they are fat, their men look like nerds, their women look like they shop at Ross Dress For Less, glitz is verboten, they lumber, their t-shirts don't hide their tummies and (hear me, folks) baseball caps chop 20 i.q. points off everyone. They are a scowlly bunch with the look of the "Herd" mentality.
Their heroes are off in a back-room deciding who to evict from our society and their back-lighting is the glow of a cross burning on someone's lawn.
What's to love?
Again, I am 70, female and atheist. Exactly what does a "libertarian resistance with an authoritarian program" have that could possibly interest me? I ask that question in all seriousness. The Right is not only lacking in class and style - they are ethically vacuous. Their hate is sneaky and predatory. Trump fits the bill for them perfectly - and so will Pence.
No "scrappy outsiders" there.
Just scrap.
Pax.
55
"their women look like they shop at Ross Dress For Less"
"lacking in class and style"
"the look of the "Herd" mentality"
Call me old fashioned but I think it is hardly productive to demean fellow citizens-even those you may intensely dislike on account of their political views--for their dress or look. These kind of comments mutilate Michelle Obama's stellar line by in effect saying, "When they go low, we go even lower..."
"lacking in class and style"
"the look of the "Herd" mentality"
Call me old fashioned but I think it is hardly productive to demean fellow citizens-even those you may intensely dislike on account of their political views--for their dress or look. These kind of comments mutilate Michelle Obama's stellar line by in effect saying, "When they go low, we go even lower..."
Calling them 'Alt Right' only normalizes their behavior. Let's call them what they are - Neo Nazis. Hate groups are hate groups no matter how they try to dress it up.
And no, this is not the fault of liberals. These groups have existed for years. They feel empowered now because 45, Fox "News", and the Republicans are encouraging their behavior.
And no, this is not the fault of liberals. These groups have existed for years. They feel empowered now because 45, Fox "News", and the Republicans are encouraging their behavior.
90
Hmmm.
Nazi. National Socialist.
What about Trump screams "socialist" again?
Nazi. National Socialist.
What about Trump screams "socialist" again?
...The "Far Right", in my humble opinion, will always be "too far to the Right" to generate any real or sustained mass appeal....Thank God.
6
For the Fascists to claim to be "alternative" or "oppressed" means placing the people they would attack (women, minorities, the Left, etc) in the position of opressor. This is a familiar old trick that dates back to the anti semitism of the 30s.
54
The underclass has always been a threat to liberalism as they uniquely gravitate to authoritarians. Adams and Madison feared "the rabble" or the modern deplorables as Hillary put it. The political battle is between the wealthy elite and the middle class elites....with the underclass deciding the outcome. They are not a monolithic group....but the angry white male and his angry female companion are proud and do not like to be talked down to. Trump flatters them and appeals to their prejudices and preconceptions. Nothing about this group screams liberalism....not at the Founding and not now. We must not forget this crowd once overthrew a King....and therein lay the strategy for their mobilization. They are a two sided sword. A Bernie or a Biden would have been a better choice than a Hillary for this group. Let's hope the Democrats learn.
12
This group did not overthrow a king. This group murdered six million Jews.
These so called "alt-right"people would never be able to hold their own in an authentic Punk setting. As a crusty old Punk-New waver who took the movement's message seriously I deeply resent these goons trying to co-opt OUR movement. Punks were not about Fascism or enabling corporate greed, corporate music companies and big arena concerts....quite the contrary, nor were they about violence or posing as Neo-Nazis. You will find most of the authentic Punks in the Bernie Sanders camp these days because they insist on authenticity and truth as well as great music which clearly does not exist in the GOP. Power to the People.....I doubt that the great Iggy Pop approves of being associated w/ these Alt-Right Punk Wannabes.
29
Copycat conservatives are as old as the hills:
Club of Rome —> Club for Growth
ACLU —> ACLJ
OMSI —> OISM
NBC News —> CBN News
Bill Clinton, charismatic populist —> George Bush, charismatic populist
Because conservatives lack the gift of imagination in any domain of human experience except power grabs, they will always look to their opponents for new ideas. These alternative kids are just as brainless and derpy as their cheap-suited grandpappies from a century ago. Plus ça change.
Club of Rome —> Club for Growth
ACLU —> ACLJ
OMSI —> OISM
NBC News —> CBN News
Bill Clinton, charismatic populist —> George Bush, charismatic populist
Because conservatives lack the gift of imagination in any domain of human experience except power grabs, they will always look to their opponents for new ideas. These alternative kids are just as brainless and derpy as their cheap-suited grandpappies from a century ago. Plus ça change.
9
i have always noticed how non-conservatives are the ones that create ehile conservatives sees change as dangerous if not subversive. conservatives will take a creative idea and strip it down to image iver content and then insert their unchanged view. its almost dare i say.. invasion of the body snatchers.
2
A very interesting piece, it gives substance to some thoughts I've had a hard time stating specifically. I would add, in all seriousness, that in part the left itself has enabled the right, and worse, the fascist right. I say that because when one refuses to have certitude for fear of either being wrong or of offending someone, one becomes a caricature, a spineless form. This has given the extreme right an easy target. I'm not saying here that the left brought this on itself. It did not. However, the inability of many on the left to understand something as basic as the difference between free speech and speech that advocates doing tremendous harm to humanity is one example of where this (ideological) spinelessness leads. That the ACLU would defend those who are actually now implementing fascism speaks volumes to this problem. I'm not referring now to people espousing these ideas. They are in power, and their street thugs, such as we have seen in the streets Berkeley and at Shakespeare performances in New York, are not in any way deprived of a platform. They have the White House, never mind Fox News.
6
The alt-right might build an infrastructure; it might even create a "sub" culture; but it will never create a culture in the classic sense. Whatever "culture" it creates will be more akin to a mass of glop in a petri dish.
I'm not worried.
I'm not worried.
10
And if the left-leaning sub-cults have been co-opted, won't the same happen to those of the Alt-Right?
1
Hi, G Todd -
Quite possibly. I remember a wonderful line from a play called "The Jockey Club Stakes": "If you can't beat 'em, absorb 'em."
As for the left, I could do without all our stupid little single-issue sub-cults. I think the Dem Party was wrong to encourage them. If the Dems looked back at the New Deal, they could keep it simple, throw out the racism, and have a platform that would win elections.
Cheers.
Quite possibly. I remember a wonderful line from a play called "The Jockey Club Stakes": "If you can't beat 'em, absorb 'em."
As for the left, I could do without all our stupid little single-issue sub-cults. I think the Dem Party was wrong to encourage them. If the Dems looked back at the New Deal, they could keep it simple, throw out the racism, and have a platform that would win elections.
Cheers.
Thanks again, NYT, for providing links and info to lure the innocent to the dark side. Thankfully, they are not clickable as previous white supremacist links have been.
1
Re: "Expressing racist ideas in offensive language, for example, or provoking audiences with winking fascist imagery, is, on some level, transgressive. (Both behaviors do have some precedent in the history of actual punk music."
The alt culture referred to here consisted of the entire spectrum, left-right. "Alternative" WAS the great "upside down" and a refuge until it was generally accepted/appropriated in the early 90s. Now what? Been asking that ever since.
The alt culture referred to here consisted of the entire spectrum, left-right. "Alternative" WAS the great "upside down" and a refuge until it was generally accepted/appropriated in the early 90s. Now what? Been asking that ever since.
Um.....good luck with that.
3
That picture cracks me up. The "new punk rock" is the same old religious right and redneck culture? Now that Trump won, you can add Wall St and the Military-Industrial-Complex to the list.
It's really just a failed attempt at irony.
It's really just a failed attempt at irony.
15
Ah, angry young white men, yearning for meaning....
25
I think they're actually elderly white men...
11
The violence in the street is not from the right; the fascistic attempts to quash free speech come not from the conservatives. It is not the working class American who is trying to redefine unwanted criticism or political disagreement as 'hate speech'. The academy takeover by the Left gave us a sense of inevitable arrogance, a sense that 'we are just smarter than they are and they _must_ do as we say'… The wholesale failure of the Left at the grassroot level is the reason Repubicans now control the nation politically, even when they had an amazingly beatable candidate. This article is a perfect example of trying to blame our failure on them. Bullstuff. This is on us. Quit blaming the Right for our screwups! Our former President was a one-off for us and was decidedly a politician of mixed talents and mixed results. Our arrogance blinded us to our incapacity to understand wht has happened to our country.
The Left must first find a message: our only cogent candidate will be eighty-one at the next inauguration.
The Left must first find a message: our only cogent candidate will be eighty-one at the next inauguration.
15
The premise here I suppose is that by appropriating the term "alternative" or "alt" the fringe is refashioning itself as a viable possibility, an"alternative" to the discredited "lame-stream" media and you can look "in" by embracing it.
I don't think so. The term seems to be rapidly becoming a catch phrase for nuttiness and a bad brand, like the word "liberal" has become. There has always been a significant segment of this country that embraces paranoid conspiracy theories and who tend to be unrepentant racists as well. That group is now neatly encapsulated by the alt appellation and no one with half a brain wants to be caught there so it will wind up as a tocsin for meeting places for those who don't care what anyone thinks- just like the Rush Limbaugh et al. talk radio programs have been.
I don't think so. The term seems to be rapidly becoming a catch phrase for nuttiness and a bad brand, like the word "liberal" has become. There has always been a significant segment of this country that embraces paranoid conspiracy theories and who tend to be unrepentant racists as well. That group is now neatly encapsulated by the alt appellation and no one with half a brain wants to be caught there so it will wind up as a tocsin for meeting places for those who don't care what anyone thinks- just like the Rush Limbaugh et al. talk radio programs have been.
3
Right-wingers have found their ultimate villain in the figure of the "oppressively censorious elite liberal." It would be funny if the right weren't using this character to justify their creeping fascism.
1. This is all about hurt feelings, not actual oppression. Right wingers don't complain about actual power because the right controls government. They don't complain about economic inequality, oligarchy or monopolies because right-wingers are against the regulations and taxes that curb such abuses. They have to complain about SOMETHING so they fixate on the resentment they feel whenever a "liberal" brings up racism, xenophobia or Muslim bashing. To the right, expressing racism and Islamophobia is fine, but criticizing these things is offensive and elitist. The racist isn't the villain. He's a victim.
2. Right-wing policy shibbloeths don't withstand scrutiny, so right-wingers are just retreating from reality. Trickle down economics doesn't work. Immigration doesn't create mass unemployment. Black people aren't getting rich off welfare. The justice system is fraught with racism. Guns are a bigger public health issue than ISIS. Climate change is a clear and present danger. Universal pre-K does a better job lowering the crime rate than prison... None of their policies are backed by evidence. Science doesn't prove their beliefs, so they reject science.
The NRA video is their worldview. If the rest of us don't get with their fantasies, they'd prefer to force it on us.
1. This is all about hurt feelings, not actual oppression. Right wingers don't complain about actual power because the right controls government. They don't complain about economic inequality, oligarchy or monopolies because right-wingers are against the regulations and taxes that curb such abuses. They have to complain about SOMETHING so they fixate on the resentment they feel whenever a "liberal" brings up racism, xenophobia or Muslim bashing. To the right, expressing racism and Islamophobia is fine, but criticizing these things is offensive and elitist. The racist isn't the villain. He's a victim.
2. Right-wing policy shibbloeths don't withstand scrutiny, so right-wingers are just retreating from reality. Trickle down economics doesn't work. Immigration doesn't create mass unemployment. Black people aren't getting rich off welfare. The justice system is fraught with racism. Guns are a bigger public health issue than ISIS. Climate change is a clear and present danger. Universal pre-K does a better job lowering the crime rate than prison... None of their policies are backed by evidence. Science doesn't prove their beliefs, so they reject science.
The NRA video is their worldview. If the rest of us don't get with their fantasies, they'd prefer to force it on us.
96
The left can't get over the fact that Redistribution of Wealth has worked NOWHERE in history. And this is the basis of their power over the "masses".
Everything else is a threat, and hence, labeled "right-wing".
Everything else is a threat, and hence, labeled "right-wing".
The "borrowing the language of social justice" results in the double flip concern troll: for example, a person who doesn't believe in equality bashes someone on the left for saying something that doesn't stress equality.
3
People as human beings are equal. At the same time; people are at different developmental levels according to their own developmental ability and/or where they choose or end up hanging out in their process of life. Some people arrive at a rational thought. Other's do not reach that level for the entirety of their life. Some people get beyond rational thought to the ability to see non-rational numbers and to see non-rational thought as a rational component of this universe. Other people get stuck confusing pre-rational thought with trans-rational awareness. Those folks have become as one writer described; the most odious generation this country has ever produced. As I see it; they're now creating the other side of a mostly two positions split, in this and other conditions. At some point it might be wise to look for commonalities.
3
Better to spend time to select, identify and create an enemy. This is the time tested method used by the destroyers of civilized societies to obtain their power. Even a small group with constant repeated calls identifying their selected enemy will attract adherents to accept their philosophy. With an identified enemy, the leaders of the process can identify for their adherents the chosen components of society to be discarded in order to defeat the enemy.
The only way to combat this process is preventing the targeted adherents' groups acceptance of the a falsely identified enemy and thereby prevent the damage caused by its destructive reaction in existing society.
In our country, at this time it is too late to prevent this process.
The only way to combat this process is preventing the targeted adherents' groups acceptance of the a falsely identified enemy and thereby prevent the damage caused by its destructive reaction in existing society.
In our country, at this time it is too late to prevent this process.
4
Hermann's description of the Far Right's mixed-up politics as "a libertarian resistance with an authoritarian program" matches Jane Mayer's description of oil billionaire Charles Koch's politics/personality exactly in her book, "Dark Money: The Hidden History of the Billionaires Behind the Rise of the Radical Right". Koch, formerly of the John Birch Society, his brother, and their wealthy pals have bought themselves a whole army of unsuspecting, unhappy and ready to rebel, working, middle class and poor voters. They did this over the last 40 years by buying their way into the media, and into Universities to set up phony academic departments to give their self-serving ideas a little sheen of credibility. The unhappy and uneducated have bought it hook, line and sinker.
Meanwhile, even though only partly at fault, Liberals are blaming themselves for the country's swing to the far right. The Democrats are floundering around without any sort of compass, ignoring the clear call home to the left from the Sanders Progressives. Those Progressives are the left's version of "alternative", and might just as easily have captured most of those rebelling voters if the Democrats had stayed out the way of Sanders in primary elections. Instead they played right into the hands of the Kochs, Putin and Trump, and alienated a huge bloc of potential voters with a very disliked establishment candidate. The Kochs set the stage for it years ago, and Trump waltzed up onto it and stole the show.
Meanwhile, even though only partly at fault, Liberals are blaming themselves for the country's swing to the far right. The Democrats are floundering around without any sort of compass, ignoring the clear call home to the left from the Sanders Progressives. Those Progressives are the left's version of "alternative", and might just as easily have captured most of those rebelling voters if the Democrats had stayed out the way of Sanders in primary elections. Instead they played right into the hands of the Kochs, Putin and Trump, and alienated a huge bloc of potential voters with a very disliked establishment candidate. The Kochs set the stage for it years ago, and Trump waltzed up onto it and stole the show.
27
well so we are in a situation very similar to the 1930's Europe. The financial crisis precipitated a misallocation of capital throughout the economy, which should have been focused on dealing with the dislocation of millions of people caused by the invention of the steam and combustion engines.
We have today the exact same technology caused transformation of the global economy. Add to that an explosion in populations throughout the 3rd world, many countries literally quadrupling their numbers between 1950 and today. These are technical issues, problems in search of solutions. But once again, our worst instincts for survival edge out rational thought.
And then, once again, we are governed by an elite that is devoid of a moral compass, has zero empathy for those less fortunate. Uses every tool of mass manipulation to incite those not equipped with rational thought to serve its purposes.
Now come the liberals, embracing ideals of fair combat, the way things should be. It will not end well, unless those equipped for a martial response join their cause. And are allowed to do so.
We have today the exact same technology caused transformation of the global economy. Add to that an explosion in populations throughout the 3rd world, many countries literally quadrupling their numbers between 1950 and today. These are technical issues, problems in search of solutions. But once again, our worst instincts for survival edge out rational thought.
And then, once again, we are governed by an elite that is devoid of a moral compass, has zero empathy for those less fortunate. Uses every tool of mass manipulation to incite those not equipped with rational thought to serve its purposes.
Now come the liberals, embracing ideals of fair combat, the way things should be. It will not end well, unless those equipped for a martial response join their cause. And are allowed to do so.
2
Comparing alt-right with alt-music? Bad analogy. Of course the alt-right seeks political power--it's a *political* movement. Alternative rock was just entertainment. The alt-rockers weren't after political power; if they had been, they would have gone into some career other than music. Of course, they had their political opinions as most people do, but very few of them were actually all that political. (I think Rage Against the Machine and Eddy Vedder would be the exceptions here.) All of the 'alienation' and anti-corporate ethos was mostly just an aesthetic statement ... or a pose.
4
It is inevitable that as more and more ideas, ideologies, schools of thought etc. become verboten that the aura of coolness becomes the right's.
Yea, the reactionary becomes the true revolutionary in an age of non-stop foment. Incessant societal turmoil leads to a younger generation that wants stability above all else. Who here thinks generation Z, raised during never-ending wars and recession, would not broadly want a nationalistic government that promotes economic growth and narrow self interest overseas?
When corporatism becomes allied with the latest societal crazes at no cost to the bottom line, when it becomes clear that higher education is about inculcation at the expense of real learning and when the popular media demonize the other (if the other is your evangelical christian working class red-stated) then yes, progressivism has become the dominant culture intent on the annihilation of the vestiges of the older culture, and the role of the underdog is no longer awarded to the despised maligned hippy, but the despised maligned hillbilly.
The only solution would be for liberals to become less censorious and dogmatic. I'm not going to hold my breath.
Yea, the reactionary becomes the true revolutionary in an age of non-stop foment. Incessant societal turmoil leads to a younger generation that wants stability above all else. Who here thinks generation Z, raised during never-ending wars and recession, would not broadly want a nationalistic government that promotes economic growth and narrow self interest overseas?
When corporatism becomes allied with the latest societal crazes at no cost to the bottom line, when it becomes clear that higher education is about inculcation at the expense of real learning and when the popular media demonize the other (if the other is your evangelical christian working class red-stated) then yes, progressivism has become the dominant culture intent on the annihilation of the vestiges of the older culture, and the role of the underdog is no longer awarded to the despised maligned hippy, but the despised maligned hillbilly.
The only solution would be for liberals to become less censorious and dogmatic. I'm not going to hold my breath.
15
The most challenging part of "alternative" is that it must also espouse an alternative methodology for presentation of evidence. Why? Because the existing tried and true methodologies (think scientific method, fact checking, rules of evidence) are the domain of the establishment and thus are seen as co-opted, tainted, useless. What happens now is the true definition of chaos. Are people abusing children in the basement of a pizza restaurant? The establishment says the restaurant has no basement and a check of the premises has shown nothing remotely like child abuse. The alternative says, "Your evidence is tainted. We have people who have seen what happens in that restaurant." And folks believe the alternative, because those who oppose a rejected establishment must themselves be speaking the truth. What we stand to lose, however, are the very foundations of civilization, based on science, rules of evidence, and so on, in favor of a chaotic alternative that offers no foundation but its own assertions. Horribly frightening stuff.
12
agreed
Good point about the maligned hillbilly. Problem is the so called nationalist political leaders are also corporatists and globalist to a very great degree. They'll wave the bloody shirt, get that good ol' boy to vote their way and then mess him over big time. Right wing libertarianism only glues in place the current pecking order. That don't help Billy out there in southern Ohio.
How many of that constituency will lose their health insurance or see the costs skyrocket if the "conservatives" kill Medicaid? Even rightist LePen of France wasn't stupid enough to want to mess with that reasonably successful heath system.
How many of that constituency will lose their health insurance or see the costs skyrocket if the "conservatives" kill Medicaid? Even rightist LePen of France wasn't stupid enough to want to mess with that reasonably successful heath system.
6
This movement was entirely inevitable and the left can only blame itself. It won't stop growing, here or in Europe, because liberalism has truly become an existential threat to the survival of Western Civilization. The truth is spreading and the fire rises.
11
First, I hope your not the John Doe of that great power pop punk California band of the very early 80s, X. Would be a huge letdown.
Second, why don't you explain to us how liberalism is such an "existential threat to Western civilization." I can see you saying the same in context to rock n roll music 60 years ago or civil rights for minorities and women 50 years ago.
And which rising fire? Certainly not James Baldwin's fire. Maybe the Reichstag fire?
Second, why don't you explain to us how liberalism is such an "existential threat to Western civilization." I can see you saying the same in context to rock n roll music 60 years ago or civil rights for minorities and women 50 years ago.
And which rising fire? Certainly not James Baldwin's fire. Maybe the Reichstag fire?
36
Of what possible good is this pointless fatalism? And how can one say the liberals have only themselves to blame, with hundreds of millions, maybe billions, spent already by the ultra-wealthy, ultra greedy far right wingers and their pals in buying elections, far right media outlets and phony "think tanks," and promoting gerrymandering and voter suppression, and by financially loading the campaign coffers of candidates who will push their self-serving agenda? Indeed the liberals have been clueless about what these greedy people were up to but that doesn't put all the blame on them. Are you a troll from the alt-right? If not, I recommend you read Noam Chomsky's "Requiem for the American Dream" to learn about the architecture of this kind of evil threat to our Democracy and civil society.
29
What about the 18 TRILLION spent since the Johnson era on the "War on Poverty" - all in redistributive programs.
And you rail against "greedy" wanting to keep their own money?
It's time to end the failed experiment known as "liberalism".
And you rail against "greedy" wanting to keep their own money?
It's time to end the failed experiment known as "liberalism".
All of this language from the "alternative right" reminds me of a comment made by Adolf Hitler at his trial in 1924: "If today I stand here as a revolutionary, it is as a revolutionary against the revolution."
It seems that we have not learned the lessons of polarizing nationalism.
It seems that we have not learned the lessons of polarizing nationalism.
82
That's a great line! I hope to use it some day.
Also, Hitler was fond of oatmeal. And an ardent vegetarian. So better watch out for that, too.
Also, Hitler was fond of oatmeal. And an ardent vegetarian. So better watch out for that, too.
Ban Vegetarians now! (I don't trust someone who won't partake of a bit of cow/chicken/pig.)