Women will take those sweet manufacturing jobs, by the way. They show up.
63
C'mon guys. Stop whining about Trump not getting you an imaginary job soon enough and Man-Up! and go to nursing or CNA school.
73
So these are the men with whose anguish I am supposed to identify, whose rage I am supposed to forgive, and whose opioid addiction my taxes are supposed to pay for? It is "beneath their dignity" to be nurses? Well, they have no dignity. They are moochers. When my mother was in an Israeli hospital, she was taken care of by a male Arab nurse, who in addition to his duties, would sit by her bedside and talk to her about literature. So Muslim men can do it and Rust Belt "Christians" cannot? I have no sympathy of the self-induced plight of these "despairing" white males who are parasites on working women like myself. I am beginning to see the wisdom of cutting Medicaid for people like them.
132
Didn't we already read a different version of this story?
13
In the Middle Ages in Europe, among those who did nursing were knights so nursing was not always thought of as "women's work" but let us fast forward to the 21st century.
I was thinking of the Jimmy Fallon story about his newborn and how the newborn infant would need cardiac surgery and how he was treated wonderfully and we all need good health insurance, etc. But lost in the story was the unidentified nurse who recognized that something was "not quite right about the appearance of baby boy Fallon" and got the ball rolling by notifying the appropriate physician. If that nurse had not notified someone, may be something really bad would have happened and an infant would have died because a health care professional wasn't paying attention. And a special shout out to Mr. Fallon for acknowledging this nurse on national TV.
But this might be the real dilemma for men in nursing. Doing a great job in anonymity and low pay and barely recognized, not just traditional and non traditional gender roles.
And BTW the professor's comments about "pink-collar jobs are crap?" I'll bet the pink-collar workers know more about what is really going on in their companies than so-called management and companies need their pink collar workers more than another "middle manager."
Just sayin'
I was thinking of the Jimmy Fallon story about his newborn and how the newborn infant would need cardiac surgery and how he was treated wonderfully and we all need good health insurance, etc. But lost in the story was the unidentified nurse who recognized that something was "not quite right about the appearance of baby boy Fallon" and got the ball rolling by notifying the appropriate physician. If that nurse had not notified someone, may be something really bad would have happened and an infant would have died because a health care professional wasn't paying attention. And a special shout out to Mr. Fallon for acknowledging this nurse on national TV.
But this might be the real dilemma for men in nursing. Doing a great job in anonymity and low pay and barely recognized, not just traditional and non traditional gender roles.
And BTW the professor's comments about "pink-collar jobs are crap?" I'll bet the pink-collar workers know more about what is really going on in their companies than so-called management and companies need their pink collar workers more than another "middle manager."
Just sayin'
56
Those manufacturing jobs from the good days ARE GONE FOREVER. Face it fellas. You need training to make it. Stop whining.
77
I've always known that women were superior to men.
Sincerely,
A white man
Sincerely,
A white man
63
I have a friend, a guy, who is a retired nurse anesthetist, and US Army trained. You want to be a great bread winner guys, try this field. He doesn't care if people call him a sissy. These professionals typically earn about 200K per year. Let's see if your wife discourages that.
106
Are we going backwards here? Honestly, I had to check the article date because I thought I had clicked into an archive from 1958.
63
Maybe men steeped in macho culture should get over themselves. It seems to pervade every aspect of our culture: men have to have giant pickup trucks, lots of guns, motorcycles, etc to feel masculine.
Having worked in a factory-once--I'd much rather be a nurse that ever do something as dehumanizing and demoralizing as working on a production line.
That was hell.
Having worked in a factory-once--I'd much rather be a nurse that ever do something as dehumanizing and demoralizing as working on a production line.
That was hell.
98
The idiotic fixation of males on being some thing called masculine ("having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with men, especially strength and aggressiveness.") is bred into them from the cradle, and their mothers are among their best teachers.
Likewise, the idiotic fixation of females on the supposed feminine qualities.
It is really difficult for any person who identifies their character, or personality, or qualities on whether they have a penis or a vagina, on their genitals, their sex, to grasp or even discover the fact that they are Human Beings who have a certain kind of genitalia.
As long as we allow genitalia to determine our qualities we are gong to be only half humans.
This business about sex is one of the biggest and stupidest animal behavior hold overs that we have. It is literally meaningless in terms of what a human being is capable of doing. Restricting ones self to those "qualities" which are supposedly feminine or masculine creates half humans.
Genitalia do not determine anything other than the processes of making more human bodies for humans.
Likewise, the idiotic fixation of females on the supposed feminine qualities.
It is really difficult for any person who identifies their character, or personality, or qualities on whether they have a penis or a vagina, on their genitals, their sex, to grasp or even discover the fact that they are Human Beings who have a certain kind of genitalia.
As long as we allow genitalia to determine our qualities we are gong to be only half humans.
This business about sex is one of the biggest and stupidest animal behavior hold overs that we have. It is literally meaningless in terms of what a human being is capable of doing. Restricting ones self to those "qualities" which are supposedly feminine or masculine creates half humans.
Genitalia do not determine anything other than the processes of making more human bodies for humans.
31
Men Don't Want to Be Nurses.
Since when? In 1968 there were eleven male nurses at the 22nd Surgical Hospital in Phu Bai. Three were anesthetists, one was an OR nurse (he had been 101st Airborne, then became a nurse), one was the DON, and the others worked in triage.
Their Wives Agree.
Really. The gas passers at the local hospital in my flyover village are anesthetists. They are married. To each other. With children.
These type of sexist articles continue to tarnish the "brand" of The New York Times. The disclaimer that this is an Op-Ed piece and not a real piece of jurinalism is lame. When you quote pointy heads from academia, you lose your free pass.
Truth up, Times.
Since when? In 1968 there were eleven male nurses at the 22nd Surgical Hospital in Phu Bai. Three were anesthetists, one was an OR nurse (he had been 101st Airborne, then became a nurse), one was the DON, and the others worked in triage.
Their Wives Agree.
Really. The gas passers at the local hospital in my flyover village are anesthetists. They are married. To each other. With children.
These type of sexist articles continue to tarnish the "brand" of The New York Times. The disclaimer that this is an Op-Ed piece and not a real piece of jurinalism is lame. When you quote pointy heads from academia, you lose your free pass.
Truth up, Times.
37
I say "suck it up buttercup." Nursing Is a fine and noble profession - great education, decent pay, in a variety of work settings. I was a Registered Nurse for 37 years and saw more men entering nursing as the years went by. They make excellent nurses. If the jobs are in health care, why not get the education and try it out. You might just like it.
157
A "male" job? You mean one that pays and allows you to feed your family? Vs the non male job you will not take? Not feed your family? False argument based on some star general 1950 worldview
43
A woman can be a nurse. A man can be a male nurse.
15
A recruiting ad that asks " are you man enough?"
And people are paid to be this stupid?
It just gets worse and worse.
And people are paid to be this stupid?
It just gets worse and worse.
13
Republican men wouldn't want to be nurses. It is founded in science, and we all know none of them believe in science. Ignorance must be bliss for these know-nothings.
85
Wake up America ! We are in year 2017!
27
Nursing is a tough job.I am a retired med tech, and thnurses at my hospital made$35-50 an hour here in Las Vegas. its a nice middle class salaryIts not all bedpans and bed baths. but you nerd a real education to keep up and not kill anybody.
30
I couldn't date a male nurse. Sorry but... I just couldn't.
5
I recently read another op-ed about this topic in this newspaper. It made a strong link between unemployed men and the huge increase in gaming. Could it be that these men don't actually want to work, because they prefer to play video games all day instead? I wonder if the gender identity crisis is just an excuse for laziness.
52
Men should dig coal by hand, so sayeth king Drumpf.
33
My daughter just passed her board exam to become an RN. She had multiple job offers before graduation. She has no geographic restrictions on employment and her job can't be outsourced. She has a choice of specializations and additional education that her employer will pay for.The money and benefits are great. I don't see a downside to this arrangement. In contrast, my son earned a B.S. in psychology and couldn't find a decent job in this country, so he spent 3 years in South Korea teaching English. He met his wife there, so it was still a good experience but he is now taking a degree in electrical engineering in hopes of securing gainful employment. He wasn't tempted by nursing despite the obvious benefits.
32
They don't want "women's work" because they don't want "women's pay".
62
However, blaming immigrants is still easier than taking a non-traditional paying job
68
I guess we could change the job title of nurse to something more macho-sounding like "paramedtech." Inane, I know, but not any more inane than the attitudes described in this article.
22
Men want to feel,Ike men, no secrets here.....
6
Not to worry, the Senate bill will pass, health care will disappear, and there will be no need for nurses, female or male! The only growing employment sector will be the funeral business! MAGA! Go trump!
31
"Women and members of minority groups, by contrast..."
Oh wait all along you've been talking about white men! Do they have a notably different culture of masculinity to support the thesis presented in the article?
Oh wait all along you've been talking about white men! Do they have a notably different culture of masculinity to support the thesis presented in the article?
34
Oh get over yourselves, guys. Good paying jobs as nurses don't suit your idea of what it is to be a man?
Hmmm - real men would take the job, the teasing and the work repsonsiblities if that is what it takes to fulfill their obligations.
Man up!
Hmmm - real men would take the job, the teasing and the work repsonsiblities if that is what it takes to fulfill their obligations.
Man up!
34
Reading this article in conjunction with another called The Real Threat from Artificial Intelligence (in the same newspaper today) leads to a possibly horrifying conclusion: men won't accept "pink" jobs, won't take old ladies across streets for some sort of minimal living, and, powered by normal testosterone that has nowhere to go, may in desperation eventually smash the whole new AI civilization to smithereens..... bang go the few top-of-the-pile companies and a new order may indeed transpire....but not the one painted in that article....the AI future needs a radical relook, not one tainted by impossible wishful thinking....maybe our western civilization will have to seriously rethink the replacement of traditionally male jobs by females....maybe even a return to values now considered anathema....traditional female roles.....to get out of the possible future mess, all options need to be on the table...even ones that would raise ire and fury.....
4
I have been man my whole life and an Occupational Therapist the last 20 years and have never felt my masculinity threatened.
Not all men are knuckle dragging goons, but one might not guess that from what has popularly ascribed as an inate male quality by some.
No matter. I wouldn't trade this career for anything and it's up to other men step up as adults. If your to manly for work that's on you, but if you have kids? You need to get your sorry, puffed up ego checked: a REAL MAN does what he has to to support his kids.
Not all men are knuckle dragging goons, but one might not guess that from what has popularly ascribed as an inate male quality by some.
No matter. I wouldn't trade this career for anything and it's up to other men step up as adults. If your to manly for work that's on you, but if you have kids? You need to get your sorry, puffed up ego checked: a REAL MAN does what he has to to support his kids.
44
"The Full Monty" addressed this subject in a comedic way.
6
Receptionists are always women. At the doctor's office, the hospital, the dentist's, the lawyer's, etc. What's with that?
5
So the takeaway is that men who didn't do well in school, who worked in relatively low paying occupations, and married women who were probably their female equivalents, cannot envision re-training to have reliable and rewarding work. Shocking!
Stupid is as stupid does.
Stupid is as stupid does.
45
I've been a nurse for 43 years. I'm a man, as are many of my nursing colleagues. We've always been a minority. Nursing requires toughness, intelligence, and dedication, and there are a lot of pansies out there that can't cut it. The lower paid roles such as aides and assistants suffer from the same ills that plague other low paid, open jobs; not enough pay for work that's too hard, with extremely well paid "executives".
35
My goodness get over your insecurities. , it's 2017 . Get over it. I'm a physician working with some of the most competent male nurses and this issue has never raised it's head.
27
This article is dumb.
I was a patient in a major university teaching hospital and my best primary caregivers, including the chief floor nurse, were males.
I was a patient in a major university teaching hospital and my best primary caregivers, including the chief floor nurse, were males.
22
Whatever happened to the masculine idea of working to provide for oneself and one's family, no matter what one had to do?
13
Any man who thinks they can't do nursing because it's women's work is right. They obviously aren't smart enough to do the job.
33
Stop dumping on men, especially those with no power. That's not feminism, it's bullying.
8
The most important thing you can do for nursing to attract males is rename it as something else.
5
It would help if they would change the name of the profession to something gender neutral. The first definition of "nurse" in the dictionary is "to nourish at the breast." What could be more feminine?
4
The original nurses were men. Catholic monks.
Monastic religious orders not your thing? Ask an Army combat medic how demeaning, how emasculating it is to care for others. It's not all heroism under enemy fire.
If you find other people interesting, for reasons other than an illness or injury that requires treatment, and can handle providing kind words and physical care, and still turn your back on this opportunity, you have no one other than yourself to blame for your situation.
Monastic religious orders not your thing? Ask an Army combat medic how demeaning, how emasculating it is to care for others. It's not all heroism under enemy fire.
If you find other people interesting, for reasons other than an illness or injury that requires treatment, and can handle providing kind words and physical care, and still turn your back on this opportunity, you have no one other than yourself to blame for your situation.
13
we would have to pay workers more and abuse them less.
11
Well I never ever...though my profession would bash my career.
I'm a RN in San Francisco for 15 years and getting ready to fight my last contract this summer and hopefully it will be good enough to retire on.
My career started as a cartagraphor but the GPS did that job in. I went on to get off state disability insurance and the dept of Rehabiltaion trained me as a nurse at CCSF for pennies on the dollar. I got a full scholarship from my CCSF and KP for being a male nurse. My other male student and I did very well and all started to work after graduation in two years. I love nursing, I love my female nurses, I love my leadership. I support a family of two and help my parents on both sides. Life is good for us. My future is bright. I want to be a nurse forever, but I will retire from Nursing and teach the younger generation to take care of me. I must warn the writer. This letter seems like a southerner s attitude simular to salavery. You teach your children to hate or dislike nursing and you damage them to this type of attitude , and this is sad in deed to perpeturate stereotypes of gender.
Gosh I could say wives do not want female pilot s or train female doctors. Sad Susan Chira. If I mentor and train three family members to be nurses that is almost a million dollars a year in our family. Now that is still working class, but Ameriaca teach young people that to be empathic is a job saver and a life saver. Male nurse are better med wifes too becasue they try hard to prove it.
I'm a RN in San Francisco for 15 years and getting ready to fight my last contract this summer and hopefully it will be good enough to retire on.
My career started as a cartagraphor but the GPS did that job in. I went on to get off state disability insurance and the dept of Rehabiltaion trained me as a nurse at CCSF for pennies on the dollar. I got a full scholarship from my CCSF and KP for being a male nurse. My other male student and I did very well and all started to work after graduation in two years. I love nursing, I love my female nurses, I love my leadership. I support a family of two and help my parents on both sides. Life is good for us. My future is bright. I want to be a nurse forever, but I will retire from Nursing and teach the younger generation to take care of me. I must warn the writer. This letter seems like a southerner s attitude simular to salavery. You teach your children to hate or dislike nursing and you damage them to this type of attitude , and this is sad in deed to perpeturate stereotypes of gender.
Gosh I could say wives do not want female pilot s or train female doctors. Sad Susan Chira. If I mentor and train three family members to be nurses that is almost a million dollars a year in our family. Now that is still working class, but Ameriaca teach young people that to be empathic is a job saver and a life saver. Male nurse are better med wifes too becasue they try hard to prove it.
14
"The problem is that notions of masculinity die hard..." Here's an idea, lady (and, of course, the author is female): How about if you stop telling men what they should and shouldn't want, and what characteristics masculinity should and shouldn't entail? I mean, really: women know as much about men as a fish know about bicycles. Professions like nursing are NEVER going to appeal to men in the numbers that feminist social engineers want, because we're wired differently than women. Get over it, and get off our backs. And write about something you understand.
8
A nurse has historically been a female.
One solution to all of this is to call male nurses corpsman, as per the Navy.
One solution to all of this is to call male nurses corpsman, as per the Navy.
3
It isn't just men who are hung up on--read, invested emotionally in--traditional sex roles. Yes, there's a power and money differential, but that would change when everybody is on board insisting that it change. As long as women insist that men be conventionally "manly"--well, they will be, not to worry.
Yuck.
Yuck.
4
Surprised the RN ratio is so low for men. In Pacific NW, it's a $100K job in high tech field of health care which also has little age discrimination found in PNW's traditional high tech where at 40 you need to start looking at another career simply because you are older.
16
If you think nursing is a low-paying profession, try EMS. Especially in a rural setting.
4
Yes, becoming a nurse may be an option for some men who find themselves unemployed. But the decision to undertake nursing as a career must be based on something more than simply being unemployed.
I enrolled in an ADN program nearly three years ago after a 15-year career as a journalist. Nursing school, was by far, the hardest thing I have ever done.
It isn't enough to be compassionate. You must be dedicated to STUDYING every possible moment because if you don't, you will FAIL.
Even though I was already a college graduate, my previous coursework didn't prepare me for the challenges of nursing school.
I graduated and have had no problems finding employment. But I studied/worked my butt off to become an RN. I now work my butt off as an RN.
I enrolled in an ADN program nearly three years ago after a 15-year career as a journalist. Nursing school, was by far, the hardest thing I have ever done.
It isn't enough to be compassionate. You must be dedicated to STUDYING every possible moment because if you don't, you will FAIL.
Even though I was already a college graduate, my previous coursework didn't prepare me for the challenges of nursing school.
I graduated and have had no problems finding employment. But I studied/worked my butt off to become an RN. I now work my butt off as an RN.
181
As an advanced practice nurse, I am always amazed and disturbed that people who have no idea what they want to do, say, "maybe I'll be a nurse." They then express surprise when they learn that "nursing school is hard!" Of course it's hard. A nurse studies chemistry, biochemistry, microbiology, psychology, anatomy, physiology, and pharmacology to name a few of the subjects required to earn a bachelors degree. Additionally, if you're not a compassionate, empathetic person at the core, please don't consider nursing.
48
If women were more respected in all societies the jobs associated with them would be, too.
210
As soon as men begin to enter careers that traditionally have been seen as "female," they will cease to be seen that way.
3
Hey free trade. The service economy...does not pay well....the knowledge economy... good for a few.. give up 50,000 msg companies in a decade to the PRC and lose 4.5 million direct jobs to benefit a few. Destroy unions.. but blame these guys. Wake up or the discontent will end poorly.
5
According to the U.S. Army 35% of Army nurses today are men. If nursing is manly enough for the Army why are only 10% of nurses in the workforce men?
Perhaps Nursing needs a makeover.
Perhaps Nursing needs a makeover.
5
Here's what it breaks down to: you can either get yourself a job and help support your family or you can sit at home waiting for your old job to magically reappear.
36
Unbelievable...seems to me that these "traditionally masculine" men and their wives probably wouldn't have the intelligence to be in Nursing, anyway.
Why this societal regression?
Why this societal regression?
18
Traditionally-minded white men are the most coddled snowflakes of all - in the sense that they have not had to question, change, assimilate or otherwise subsume in any real as the rest of the culture has been required to do for decades. Yet this is what equality requires of us - flexibility, humility and most of all to toss the assumption that any of us gets to be the "default".
29
Let males become a majority in these professions, and watch the salaries rise. Jobs done primarily by women get zero respect, as David Brooks´recent
jibe about nannies made clear.
jibe about nannies made clear.
24
Look, the name is a problem. "Nursing" is what mothers do for their babies. There is an inextricable link between the name and being female.
47
Actually, we "breast feed." I'm a nurse and my profession is nursing.
18
My grandson graduated in University nursing and was a star HS quarterback with no masculinity problems. Got a great paying job in a better hospital.
24
In December of last year, secondary to a fall onto a very hard head butt with a slab of concrete, I ended up in the ER with a moderate concussion and all of the symptoms that came with it.
No one likes ERs, not patients, nurses, docs or those who come along in the ambulance to give moral support if nothing more. Having been in a battlefield setting as a nurse, going through triage and hoping that whoever will be the nurse on your care can be nerve wracking. And I am very picky when it comes to just who may examine or treat me.
If it is possible to have delight with one's care while suffering the indignities of concussion, I had a delightful stay for a day in the ER with one of the best triage/ER nurses ever, a young male BSN who knew exactly what to do , when to do it and how to do it, with empathy, skill, knowledge, excellent communication skills, and the ability to ensure that the patient knew they were in competent hands. He was and is exactly what nursing is so very short of-someone who does their job as it should be done, (And I am muslim and female-and a nurse.... one who looks for women to care for me-but with this young man I would not have traded him for a dozen females to nurse me. Oh ... and just to make the story more wonderful, the attending doc was... an equally competent woman!
Thanks "CC"! You will be a remarkable ER physician as you are a nurse.
No one likes ERs, not patients, nurses, docs or those who come along in the ambulance to give moral support if nothing more. Having been in a battlefield setting as a nurse, going through triage and hoping that whoever will be the nurse on your care can be nerve wracking. And I am very picky when it comes to just who may examine or treat me.
If it is possible to have delight with one's care while suffering the indignities of concussion, I had a delightful stay for a day in the ER with one of the best triage/ER nurses ever, a young male BSN who knew exactly what to do , when to do it and how to do it, with empathy, skill, knowledge, excellent communication skills, and the ability to ensure that the patient knew they were in competent hands. He was and is exactly what nursing is so very short of-someone who does their job as it should be done, (And I am muslim and female-and a nurse.... one who looks for women to care for me-but with this young man I would not have traded him for a dozen females to nurse me. Oh ... and just to make the story more wonderful, the attending doc was... an equally competent woman!
Thanks "CC"! You will be a remarkable ER physician as you are a nurse.
21
Here is a small suggestion on how to start improving the "image" of health care careers: Lose the "Pink Collar" label. Those words screams "Women's Work!" to almost anyone who hears them.
8
Good for men for refusing sub-par employment. It is time for women to show some character and demand better pay and conditions instead of being such pushovers.
7
“We need to reinvent pink-collar jobs so men will take them and won’t be unhappy — or women, either.”
Just as the white opiate epidemic has finally brought a change in approach to regulation of illicit drugs, so the imminent arrival of men in "pink-collar" jobs finally spurs a revamp of this neglected, despised sector.
I'm not sure which is worse, to be one of the perpetually neglected and overlooked or to be a member of the over-privileged and oblivious centre. Happy pig or sad Socrates?
Just as the white opiate epidemic has finally brought a change in approach to regulation of illicit drugs, so the imminent arrival of men in "pink-collar" jobs finally spurs a revamp of this neglected, despised sector.
I'm not sure which is worse, to be one of the perpetually neglected and overlooked or to be a member of the over-privileged and oblivious centre. Happy pig or sad Socrates?
9
The same people who want limited government, are the same people who want the government to create jobs for them, even though there are jobs available that they won't take because of some sort of sexist stigma. "Pink-collar jobs", I mean that's ridiculous. That quote at the end of this article is absurd. "We need to reinvent pink-collar jobs so men will take them and won't be unhappy..." Are you serious with that? These are the people who vote for some insane, rich dude who has never done anything to serve anyone but himself, who wants to build walls, and cut healthcare for the poorest people, even though they have no job, are poor themselves, and will be effected most by these cuts. Now these same people won't take a job because it isn't manly enough. Give me break.
32
I have never heard the term, "pink collar".
4
When I was a Hospital Training Director, I was not part of "male cliques" since teaching was perceived as more of a "feminine" job. But when I started teaching computer courses, I was invited in with the other guys. Seems like nothing has changed.
6
Wondering if we change the job title, would we attract more males to the profession?
Like when "stewardess" became "flight attendant," maybe it is time to update the title of "nurse" to perhaps "medical assistant" or "care attendant" or similar. That might be one low cost method to increase recruitment multifold.
Like when "stewardess" became "flight attendant," maybe it is time to update the title of "nurse" to perhaps "medical assistant" or "care attendant" or similar. That might be one low cost method to increase recruitment multifold.
5
No judgement when men choose music, art,
dance, culinary arts, fashion design.
But a male nurse?
It's time to evolve from the perception
that it's a compensatory decision.
dance, culinary arts, fashion design.
But a male nurse?
It's time to evolve from the perception
that it's a compensatory decision.
8
Rage and despair propelled them to vote for Trump...things are only going to get worse after the 2020 election, then they'll know real rage and despair...
There is nothing wrong with being a nurse except the lower pay...
There is nothing wrong with being a nurse except the lower pay...
8
Nothing will ever change as long as we continue fostering stereotypes. Some men, like some women, would make fine nurses. What their friends prefer for their image is hardly dispositive.
If you can do the job -- and it's not for sissies -- then be a nurse. The politics aside, health care in America is going to be big business always.
If you can do the job -- and it's not for sissies -- then be a nurse. The politics aside, health care in America is going to be big business always.
8
It all proves women are just as much a problem on the equality front as men. Their attitudes and homophobia about men are not helping anyone. If more men become nurses, undoubtedly the pay scale will rise and equality in the work place will improve. For equality to work straight women need to stop expecting to be financially "taken care of" or have their men have a macho job. It is their expectations on their spouses that are road blocks to equality. In gay/lesbian households this just doesn't happen. We see each other more as equals without any societal expectations. Either partner can assume rolls that best fit the partnership. We don't look down on male nurses.
5
It's all in the name. Nursing is also the term for breast feeding. Change the name to health care attendant or something other than nursing. That might help bring more men into the field.
5
I agree! Nursing is also breastfeeding! Male egos can't handle that. Personal Health Engineers? Health Security Trainers?
4
Unfortunately, many men don't want to work in service industries, unless they are in charge of telling the women what to do and only have to emerge from their private offices once a week. Generally, they don't want to take care of the kids and grandma, either.
They'd rather mine coal.
They'd rather mine coal.
14
I believe you, but I would like to know how much of this had to do with the lower wages then the stereotype of the work: "...some men who might have been willing to consider lower-paid jobs in typically feminine fields encountered resistance from their wives, who urged them to keep looking."
Another factor may be that men will be less willing to put up with the crazy work schedules that are often imposed on nurses, like not knowing until you get to work if you will actually be working that night.
7
You know what! I don't care what the unemployed want. If they qualify and are offered the opportunity for re-education and they do not do it for whatever reason, society does not owe them anything.
12
Some of the best nurses I have encountered have been men, and for a very simple reason. They were combat medics.
11
I've had a couple of male nurses and I thought they were just fine. The point is to get the best care, regardless of gender. Go ahead, guys, TRY it. We patients will be grateful.
3
There's nursing and nursing, with a huge range of gradations between them. To be an rn, you have to be well educated. The coursework is comparable to that for mds. Staying in school and keeping up your grades is essential. And the pay and respect is good.
And then there are the other kind of nurses for the disabled and the elderly, the workhorses in hospitals and nursing homes. In this segment, the work is high empathy but low pay. You can't raise a family on it.
It's the economy, stupid. If many men could get decent pay for lower-skill work, they would jump at it, but so many jobs "for women" are underpaid.
And then there are the other kind of nurses for the disabled and the elderly, the workhorses in hospitals and nursing homes. In this segment, the work is high empathy but low pay. You can't raise a family on it.
It's the economy, stupid. If many men could get decent pay for lower-skill work, they would jump at it, but so many jobs "for women" are underpaid.
9
The irony is that women will get to equality only when men get to equality. Different sides of the same coin. Women's progress has stalled and it is not going to get 'unstalled' until men are free from our culture's 'be a man' straight jacket. As long as we women keep men trapped in their traditional roles (which includes not showing emotion), we will be trapped in ours.
4
It is just a matter of time before male nurses will be commonplace. The job pays well, and a good nurse commands respect and gratitude. What's not to like about that, for men and women alike? It does require education though, only a high school diploma won't do it if you want a better paying job in health care.
4
I feel sorry for the wife who somehow discourages her husband from being a nurse. As the author of eight "When I Grow Up I Want to be a....." books - when it came to nursing i chose a man as the main nurse character, but included women as well, On the other hand, last night I visited my 2 and half year old granddaughter who had been given a toy doctor's kit. The image on the package was a white male. My point, things need to change. That said, in Orange County i encounter a good number of male nurses, and the last two doctors i visited where both females.
2
Sorry to see such outdated ideas resurrected, especially around nursing---as an older RN I've worked with too many great male RNs who certainly never took any heat from female nurses or patients. They tended to be in ER or ortho a lot but could be found in every hospital corner.
Stop trying to create a "pink collar".
If men desperate for work don't want to study for nursing or sit for boards it's because it's too much work, too hard, or they know they couldn't do it. If wife objects it's 'cause she knows it.
Nursing is hard and complex but rewarding for doing your job well. Men in our ranks help bring a diversity that was long missing. None of us go into it planning ot become millionaires--the payoff is human helping human, part of a team / part of humanity. Some in society are the carers, competent, efficient & paid in a patient getting better, or not worse, or assisting a grieving family.
Trump may want to return to the Mad Men era but don't help him with ammo for his '50s macho man; don't keep caring men who are long tired of labels from a fulfilling career that pays well. You do a great disservice.
Stop trying to create a "pink collar".
If men desperate for work don't want to study for nursing or sit for boards it's because it's too much work, too hard, or they know they couldn't do it. If wife objects it's 'cause she knows it.
Nursing is hard and complex but rewarding for doing your job well. Men in our ranks help bring a diversity that was long missing. None of us go into it planning ot become millionaires--the payoff is human helping human, part of a team / part of humanity. Some in society are the carers, competent, efficient & paid in a patient getting better, or not worse, or assisting a grieving family.
Trump may want to return to the Mad Men era but don't help him with ammo for his '50s macho man; don't keep caring men who are long tired of labels from a fulfilling career that pays well. You do a great disservice.
8
This gender bias is no more acceptable than saying coal miners shouldn't be encouraged to pursue education in environmentally sustainable jobs that will pay good wages, have a future, and will return them to a life of dignity and hope. The new economy demands adjustments to long-held beliefs and expectations - and bringing men into the health care field will have the important side benefit of improving wages and working conditions for all. I'd much rather have a husband who works as a nurse than a man who sits around at home all day, drinking and complaining.
8
My father died recently at age 96 in a high end extended care facility. Even his doctors were women. Not only were all the nurses and nursing aides women, but the aides who handled the routine custodial care were all immigrants. Friends who have family members in extended care in other regions of the country say the same thing. We baby boomers are on the cusp of needing this type of care ourselves, in numbers that will overwhelm facilities just as we did schools in our early years. With the anti-immigration movement, who do we expect will be available to help us bathe, dress, and even eat? These are not easy jobs and the pay is terrible, yet I was so grateful for the compassionate care my father received. We need an attitude adjustment - the empathy and caring men show for fellow soldiers on the battlefield should not be perceived as somehow more manly than empathy for the disabled or elderly. We are all soldiers in this life and all headed to the same final destination. Encourage young men in high school to consider careers in caring for others, and provide such jobs with career ladders so they do not become dead ends.
8
My cousin is a nurse practitioner and chose to go into the field. He loves his job. For those in this article it is more manly to be unemployed than to work in a profession helping people. Talk about entitled men and the women who support their beliefs. During the depression, men would have begged for such jobs. It is not the poor who cannot find employment that those who don't want to pay taxes should be resentful of. It is those who can find employment, but turn away opportunities due to their vanity that should be admonished.
5
I have been a RN for 50 years and over time saw many men entering our profession. Like in any other setting, they brought varying levels of testosterone but I can unequivocally say, they are often the best nurses in any situation. Their critical skill thinking, usual calmness and ability to improvise bring many gifts to the art and skill of nursing. I have never once thought that they weren't masculine because they were nurses.
6
As a man that has been an RN for 34 years, I was interested in the article. I read in the article about how men may balk at doing low wage, traditionally female work. Not accurate. It is NOT hard to make a 6 figure salary as a nurse. Direct caregiver nurses frequently earn more than their managers. Most nurses are paid hourly. The shortage of nurses means you can work as much overtime as you want and laugh all the way to the bank at your macho buddies still sitting on the couch. I remember a college recruiter meeting with a group of us in high school . I said I wanted to be a nurse, she said, are you serious? I now have a master's degree from a prestigious university, I have had so many roles as a nurse, from a caregiver to educator, manager. My favorite is direct care provider. I am usually not with a new patient more than 5 minutes before they ask if I will be back tomorrow. I take that to mean they recognize the quality and professionalism that I bring to each encounter. rarely have I encountered objections to my being a patient's caregiver, usually from an elderly woman. I switch with a female nurse. I have never encountered female nurses that were bothered by male RNs. they welcome men, we can help them lift and turn their patients....one professor did make obnoxious and sexists comments. Once she asked if anyone in class could truly say they were not pregnant. the look on her face when my hand went up...wives should be proud if their husband in an RN!
22
This is one of the most hetero-normative "News Analysis" I've seen in the Times in a decade. Did anyone ask husbands if they objected to their husbands' profession? If the author or editor live in NY and looks out at the Pride Parade passing by, perhaps your assumptions about marriages and partnerships will change.
8
I just want to point out that a physical therapists require a doctorate degree. How many people out of work can afford a 7 year degree?
5
I work as a physical therapy assistant in a hospital. Pay is comparable to nursing and it takes 2 years of schooling.
6
A PT assistant only needs a two year of associates degree. The PT DR must run the clinic, and the PT Assts must be the day to day hands on therapists. Lack of bachelors and masters degrees in PT seems to be a big gap.
2
I know several elderly men who would much prefer a male caregiver to a female one, and a guy would be more effective in the lifting involved. And it is true, the only male caregivers I have seen at the assisted living center where my ex-husband now is are minorities--but they are much in demand and doing a great job!
9
Has anyone considered that it's not that tradionally female sector pay is low because the occupation is dominated by women but when women dominate a sector the pay is low? It's not that women go in to professions that pay less, it's because most employees are women that the pay in specific professions is low relative to skill. In other words, if more men began working in these areas, the pay would go up. As a historian I know that the reverse has long been true, when a sector shifts from male to female, i.e. textiles, the pay goes down. I'm also frustrated in these discussions by the unspoken assumption that the gender differences in how work relates to self esteem are baked in, not created. We can change those definitions of masculinity but only if we don't see them as determined at birth.
17
In the 19th century nursing was a male profession until Florence Nightingale promoted it so successfully for women. Walt Whitman worked as a nurse during the Civil War. No reason it can't be populated by men again. At the nursing college where I teach, we have about 10% male students, many of whom are traditionally masculine.
11
I do not buy the argument that men forego a career in nursing because they equate that profession as a woman's job. I think there is not a rush to nursing school by unemployed men (or women) because it requires empathy and only a certain percentage of our population have that quality. Perhaps the desire to be a care giver can be developed in an individual who also possesses the intelligence to handle the education requirements to be a nurse. But it seems short sighted to think you can just mske a nurse out of the average unemployed American.
8
My 92-year-old father has had several stays in a nursing care facility during the past few years. The male nursing aides were absolutely crucial to his care and to his dignity. The male aides assisted him with dressing and undressing, showering and using the bathroom. These things could have been done by female aides, but my father has been very grateful to have a man attend to these needs. In a situation where an older or disabled man is coping with many physical and emotional challenges, I think the presence of man on the care team can be really important, as it has been for my father. I hope more men will consider this career. They are truly needed.
21
I have approached a nursing program at the University of Tennessee and been told I would have to take a whole four year regimen even though I was pre-med decades ago, and retook organic chemistry, anatomy and physiology several decades later. I have sat in on nursing lectures and had my books removed from a front row seat. I have approached the nursing program at Pellissippi State and been rudely tossed out of the office. Women have a good thing going in nursing; they do not want men in it.
6
"The jobs most in demand — like nursing and nurse assistants, home health care aides, occupational therapists or physical therapists — sit open. The health care sector had the largest gap between vacancies and hires..."
This is about to change very soon thanks to what the GOP will do to healthcare laws.
"Some men who might have been willing to consider lower-paid jobs in typically feminine fields encountered resistance from their wives, who urged them to keep looking."
"Men can also face resistance from their female peers."
Too many stereotypes in this article and too little evidence. Same with readers who say "women want the filed for themselves." The main reason for which men -particularly men who come from other, better paid sectors- don't like caregiver jobs in the health field is because they are poorly paid. Increase the pay and you will see an increase in the number of male applicants and caregivers! Or, like they say, follow the money!
This is about to change very soon thanks to what the GOP will do to healthcare laws.
"Some men who might have been willing to consider lower-paid jobs in typically feminine fields encountered resistance from their wives, who urged them to keep looking."
"Men can also face resistance from their female peers."
Too many stereotypes in this article and too little evidence. Same with readers who say "women want the filed for themselves." The main reason for which men -particularly men who come from other, better paid sectors- don't like caregiver jobs in the health field is because they are poorly paid. Increase the pay and you will see an increase in the number of male applicants and caregivers! Or, like they say, follow the money!
2
That has never been my experience?
2
In the last couple of years I have seen efforts by companies in male-dominated fields and non-profit organizations to recruit and train women for high paying jobs that don't require college degrees, such as electricians and welders. There is a lot of enthusiasm for this type of initiative because it is seen as a fairly fast way for women heads of household to help themselves out of poverty. It will be interesting to see if those jobs become less well-paid as more women gravitate towards them. I hope not.
5
Perhaps some aspects of the health care professions would be more appealing to men with rebranding. How would it sound to be called an "Operating Room Technician" or an "Emergency Department Medical Assistant"? By contrast to Nursing, the field of EMT (Emergency Medical Technician) is populated by more men than women.
It is probably true, as many comments have noted, that professions which demand greater education could be more challenging for many males to pursue. But even there, names matter. Consider "Trainer" which has much in common with (and may be the same person as) "Physical or Occupational Therapist".
We have made progress in opening up opportunities for women in some areas previously dominated by men. Maybe creative linguistics can make health care occupations more appealing to men.
It is probably true, as many comments have noted, that professions which demand greater education could be more challenging for many males to pursue. But even there, names matter. Consider "Trainer" which has much in common with (and may be the same person as) "Physical or Occupational Therapist".
We have made progress in opening up opportunities for women in some areas previously dominated by men. Maybe creative linguistics can make health care occupations more appealing to men.
5
I recently had an assertive male nurse -- for the first time ever. He supported my preference for not taking an MRI, contrary to a doctor's recommendation. I was appreciative of his willingness to stand up to the doctor, who was clearly over the line. I'm sure there are plenty of female nurses and less masculine male nurses who would have also stood up to the doctor. But I believe I was lucky to have a masculine nurse.
3
Hmm. So, women don't want men to take "pink-collar" jobs, because of the lower pay and status?
Would we not be better as a society as a whole if there were equality in pay and status for all jobs? That would eliminate delineating and demeaning phrases such as, "women's work".
In this case, what's good for the gander is also good for the goose!
Would we not be better as a society as a whole if there were equality in pay and status for all jobs? That would eliminate delineating and demeaning phrases such as, "women's work".
In this case, what's good for the gander is also good for the goose!
3
To several commenters who have questioned the "shortage" of nurses: I teach at a community college. We have far more pre-nursing students than the program can handle. What limits the entry into the field is the number of clinical slots available; there are too few "teaching nurses," since "teaching" interferes with their usual duties and career progression. Solve that problem (Bill Gates, where are you?) and shortages of nurses of either gender will be greatly eased.
6
In recent years, my very sick father has had highly skilled male nurses and physical therapists a number of times. Those men were not only caring, intelligent, and knowledgeable, they also seemed to encourage Dad to push himself a bit harder to recover, especially the PTs. I am so grateful to these men for the work they did to help him get better, and I wish there were more such individuals in those positions. As a teacher myself, I work with many men (the faculty at my elementary school is 40% male in classroom teaching positions, an unusually high proportion). My male colleagues are every bit as good at their work as my female colleagues.
All of these men, however, have advanced degrees (both the nurses and the teachers). Some unemployed coal miners may think it is beneath them to take such "women's work," but I wouldn't want someone who barely graduated from high school trying to do my job, or provide care for my family member in the ICU. I was in college and graduate school for six years to qualify for my job, and to suggest that anyone without even a bachelor's degree should jump into teaching is pretty insulting. I welcome any person to join the profession who has demonstrated he or she can 1) do the intellectual work required, and 2) actually wants to do this work. No one else need apply.
All of these men, however, have advanced degrees (both the nurses and the teachers). Some unemployed coal miners may think it is beneath them to take such "women's work," but I wouldn't want someone who barely graduated from high school trying to do my job, or provide care for my family member in the ICU. I was in college and graduate school for six years to qualify for my job, and to suggest that anyone without even a bachelor's degree should jump into teaching is pretty insulting. I welcome any person to join the profession who has demonstrated he or she can 1) do the intellectual work required, and 2) actually wants to do this work. No one else need apply.
16
The problem is the job TITLE as much as the job itself. Too many guys don't want to be nurses, but don't mind being paramedics. A job position which typically pays significantly less. Nursing is not quote-unquote Woman's Work. It deserves a gender-neutral job title.
7
Agreed. How about "Healer"?
3
Changed careers to Nursing from engineering. After about 11,000 hours in Medical-Surgical nursing in Renal and Oncology focused areas, I still want to be a nurse.
8
Is it not the low pay rather than the job that keeps men away from home healthcare etc.?
A $15/hr minimum wage would go a long way toward making traditional "woman's work" enticing to men.
A $15/hr minimum wage would go a long way toward making traditional "woman's work" enticing to men.
14
The low pay keeps women away from home healthcare too, if they have other options. The same with daycare.
That's $30,000/yr not exactly a manly wage in the maga world.
"Nursing should appeal to men because it pays fairly good wages and is seen as a profession with a defined skill set. Yet just 10 percent of nurses are men, despite “Are You Man Enough … to Be a Nurse?” posters and other efforts to enlist men."
Have they considered that maybe asking someone "Are You Man Enough?" might be an insulting way of talking to them?
Have they considered that maybe asking someone "Are You Man Enough?" might be an insulting way of talking to them?
12
The lack of males in fields such as nursing and education is due to the levels of education required in those fields. To expect a 50-year old (whether male or female) , often with no prior college experience, to go college for at least two years (L.P.N.) or four years (R.N. or teacher) is unrealistic. Many are just not sufficiently ready or motivated for college studies.
A neighbor of mine dropped out of a four-year college, became a paramedic, and is now a fire chief who travels statewide teaching other firemen. He has never finished his A.S. but has been very successful in his field He is married to a R.N. administrator with a M.S.
College is not for everyone and our economy still needs jobs which do not require higher education.
A neighbor of mine dropped out of a four-year college, became a paramedic, and is now a fire chief who travels statewide teaching other firemen. He has never finished his A.S. but has been very successful in his field He is married to a R.N. administrator with a M.S.
College is not for everyone and our economy still needs jobs which do not require higher education.
13
As a single father (1981 - 1997) of two children with developmental disabilities I experienced first hand the resistance society has to men outside their traditional roles. I also encountered this while being the primary care giver to my now deceased mother. It's not just men or the high school educated who's biases reflect a level of discomfort with men stepping out of their traditional roles. Much of the push back I received was from professionals doubtful of my abilities and women hostile to the idea that a man could do both of these typically female tasks at all, much less do them well. Gender stereotypes inhibit all of us and societal expectations play an outsized role in this. Our world of work & society is quickly evolving & the need to expand the boundaries of what roles are acceptable and desirable is becoming ever more urgent.
18
I as a female Nurse Anesthetist take offense when you describe the profession of nursing as "Pink Collar" meaning low pay, dead end. I made a decision to become a nurse right before going to college and received a BSN from MCV which is now Virginia Commonwealth University. I learned to think and I learned to reason and this gave me the skills to get ahead in my career and become a CRNA, the first Nurse Practioners.
Since then Nurse Practioners have become intergalactic parts of the medical system but this does not discount the need for good RNs, LPNs and CNAs. True, the pay is mot the same as working massive overtime in a factory but the personal satisfaction of seeing someone smile because you have helped them makes up for that.
I work with many men who serve all levels of care in our facility, a large University Hospital. We all have the same goal and are all valued by our patients and the doctor, otherwise known as Lord on High. Trust me, it is the person, man or woman who spends the most time with the patient that they remember and it is not the doctor.
Nursing is a tiring profession both mentally and physically and I can only hope this may encourage one more man to try it. We need you to take care of me. I need to retire soon!
Since then Nurse Practioners have become intergalactic parts of the medical system but this does not discount the need for good RNs, LPNs and CNAs. True, the pay is mot the same as working massive overtime in a factory but the personal satisfaction of seeing someone smile because you have helped them makes up for that.
I work with many men who serve all levels of care in our facility, a large University Hospital. We all have the same goal and are all valued by our patients and the doctor, otherwise known as Lord on High. Trust me, it is the person, man or woman who spends the most time with the patient that they remember and it is not the doctor.
Nursing is a tiring profession both mentally and physically and I can only hope this may encourage one more man to try it. We need you to take care of me. I need to retire soon!
17
Message understood but nice smiles don't make up for less pay and men know that.
2
As a male in nursing school in the 90s, i enjoyed the "road less traveled" for my species. There was a sense of adventure to it. Yes, a few snarky comments but they were harmless and in retrospect, quite foolish. The industry was always gracious to me at every point in my training and early career. After just a few years, I realized there were other industries that wanted my clinical experience namely, the pharmaceutical and clinical research field. Let's not forget that while nursing is among the most noble of careers, there are other avenues beyond nursing that can lead to a fulfilling career.
13
Many years ago, my roommate, a man 20 years my senior, was changing his career to nursing. At nursing school he was often the only male in a class. Once a guest lecturer--a physician and a pillar of his profession--scanned the room before his talk. His eyes alighted on my roommate, and in his most sarcastic voice asked, "What are YOU doing here?" To which my roommate replied, "I want to marry a doctor."
8
I cannot be sympathetic to people who refuse to recognize that the world has changed, is changing, and will continue to change. People have to adapt. If they refuse to adapt they will be left behind. Is it more manly to unemployed than to be a nurse or health care worker and bring home a decent income? Come on guys, get real. Quit being such babies and spoiled brats!
21
There's a young couple in my church congregation. She's small and slender; he looks like a linebacker. She's a neurologist; he's a nurse. They both love and are excellent at their jobs and neither one worries about stereotypes. Just food for thought.
19
I've been an RN since 2002. In my experience the number of men that I work with on a professional basis has truly exploded. In the beginning, I was considered something of a "seven day miracle", because it was such a rarity seeing another male. Now there is an ever increasing amount of male colleagues I work with regularly I found the article ill-informed. The author takes a few nay-sayers and created them an "expert" in the field. She takes statistics amd fails to compare them to statistics of 20 to 30 years ago. I suppose this is the norm with the New York Times and their polls and statistics, that's why they predicted Donald Trump would not be president so persistently last year. Try again!
7
It's the word: nurse. Its root is in the mammary gland function of the wet nurse. And because of that it's gender-specific, in the minds of many. Change the name of the profession. Today nursing is so intensive and high-tech it deserves a new name anyway.
14
I think you hit the nail on the head here. "Patient Care Technician" is one possibility that comes to mind.
1
Not sure the author realizes, but you can't just go from unemployed factory worker to nurse. Not only do you have to be fairly intelligent and have a BA, you have to go to years of nursing school which costs big $. Not a lot of families can afford the foregone income and student loans.
The author did touch on the disgustingly low pay for home health aides and similar positions. Not only are a lot of these positions incredibly difficult, but if they are in such high demand, why don't they make more $?
The author did touch on the disgustingly low pay for home health aides and similar positions. Not only are a lot of these positions incredibly difficult, but if they are in such high demand, why don't they make more $?
19
You don't need a BA followed by nursing school. RN is a 2 year program, BSN is 4 - bachelor in nursing. No idea what LRN, CNA, CRNA are
1
There has been a gigantic push to get women in the work force. They can do anything and everything is the slogan. From factory work to enlisting in the Marines to doctor, lawyer. They are more compliant, quick learning and do not do stupid sexual adventures like guys do. There were two decades of "take your daughter to work day". Everybody now knows girls can do anything guys can do and "do it better".
But there was never a guys can do women jobs push. If there is then there is some humiliation and shame attached to it. Factory jobs have gone away.
So now there is a growing army of low self esteem guys that feel beaten. They become despondent and unemployable. No wonder Trump got elected.
Time to now encourage boys to put down the video gamer and get some competitiveness back in their blood.
But there was never a guys can do women jobs push. If there is then there is some humiliation and shame attached to it. Factory jobs have gone away.
So now there is a growing army of low self esteem guys that feel beaten. They become despondent and unemployable. No wonder Trump got elected.
Time to now encourage boys to put down the video gamer and get some competitiveness back in their blood.
11
Most of the male RNs I knew went for the high adrenaline jobs in the hospital such as emergency rooms and ICU. You seldom saw them on med-surg floors.
3
Maybe that's why so many Uber and Lyft drivers are men.
RNs at major hospitals in my city are highly educated, highly skilled and can make 80-100K.
You cannot just turn around and become an RN?!
Shortage or not. It's insulting to RNs to suggest that.
RNs at major hospitals in my city are highly educated, highly skilled and can make 80-100K.
You cannot just turn around and become an RN?!
Shortage or not. It's insulting to RNs to suggest that.
16
"Traditionally male factory work is drying up."
this has been going on for decades. agriculture too. who wants to work in a dirty and dangerous coal mine? who said men need to build stuff?
...
"The problem is that notions of masculinity die hard..."
nah, if you pay them, they will come. money = power and masculinity.
this has been going on for decades. agriculture too. who wants to work in a dirty and dangerous coal mine? who said men need to build stuff?
...
"The problem is that notions of masculinity die hard..."
nah, if you pay them, they will come. money = power and masculinity.
2
Their wives aren't the only ones who don't want them to be nurses. I don't want them to be nurses either.
This is the most ridiculous thing I think I've read in a long time. The title alone is offensive. I've been a healthcare professional for my entire working life. I have seen the influx of men in the past several years. The ones I work with are proud and hard working and have a great salary to boot.
I find the idea that "notions" of masculinity dying hard as the reason men aren't flocking to nursing nonsensical. Maybe they are too lazy or not bright enough. That has to be the answer because why else would you not pursue a profession that is considered among of the most admired and respected. A profession that can more than provide for a family. Abject ignorance I suspect.
You either want to work or don't. Blaming stale stereotypes speaks to a lack of imagination or true desire to work.
I find the idea that "notions" of masculinity dying hard as the reason men aren't flocking to nursing nonsensical. Maybe they are too lazy or not bright enough. That has to be the answer because why else would you not pursue a profession that is considered among of the most admired and respected. A profession that can more than provide for a family. Abject ignorance I suspect.
You either want to work or don't. Blaming stale stereotypes speaks to a lack of imagination or true desire to work.
4
I think you hit thenail right on the head: nursing and caregiver agencies discourage male applicants because they will expect and deamand more than the minimum wage.
4
But if the agencies get a percentage of the caregivers' wages, why wouldn't they want them to be higher? Seems like it would be a win-win for agency and caregiver.
1
What a tragically antiquated view of gender! So most men are still too emotionally delayed to do work requiring empathy, listening, nurturing? And is it more "manly" to let your children go hungry? To go to the extreme - are the many women in the world who resort to prostitution for their and their children's survival being "feminine"? People who survive hard times are the ones who adapt, and hopefully take pride in that ability. As for being in the minority in a non-traditional profession : welcome to our world, guys!
2
I have an issue with the writer's.....bias? Ignorance? Ms. Chira states in the opening sentence of her second paragraph that "The problem is that notions of masculinity die hard...".
Is masculinity REALLY a problem? That said, yes, Ms. Chira, "notions of masculinity die hard" because masculinity is not only culturally determined, but genetically as well, perhaps primarily so. Masculine behavior provides genetic advantages as men, on average, compete against each other in dominance hierarchies, and the winner is selected by women for mating (if you doubt this, explain to me why every human has twice as many female ancestors as male. Women truly are in charge of the future, in this sense).
I agree...the men who decline "women's work" need to "man up" and do what's right. But a blanket condemnation of masculinity is facile and ignorant.
Is masculinity REALLY a problem? That said, yes, Ms. Chira, "notions of masculinity die hard" because masculinity is not only culturally determined, but genetically as well, perhaps primarily so. Masculine behavior provides genetic advantages as men, on average, compete against each other in dominance hierarchies, and the winner is selected by women for mating (if you doubt this, explain to me why every human has twice as many female ancestors as male. Women truly are in charge of the future, in this sense).
I agree...the men who decline "women's work" need to "man up" and do what's right. But a blanket condemnation of masculinity is facile and ignorant.
5
So it is not about the job or career, but the gendered stereotypes associated with certain jobs? If this isn't toxic masculinity, I don't know what is. As a woman, I want an employed man, period!
2
If these jobs were more attractive, them men would want them. They're women's jobs because the hours are not in their control and pressed down by management. Hospital systems hire and fire at the drop of a hat, for instance in Indianapolis where I live there are firings of a thousand nurses at a time then rehired back later at lower pay and even worse schedules than before. This has created an environment of outright cutthroat behavior between nurses on the floor that spills out into patient care when the same attitude is exacted on patients. It's a typical pattern of indirect, passive aggressiveness by women with no power so they cannot direct anger and frustration directly.
The same can be said of most pink ghetto jobs.
It's a shame because men on nursing floors would be a big help. The single greatest cause of injury on the job by nurses is from trying to move or lift patients they are not physically equipped to do. A man around would be a big help but why would they want to enter this scenario?
Answer: they wouldn't.
It's not nursing. Its how nursing is designed. Same for middle management, customer service, retail and a host of other jobs.
The jobs stink.
The same can be said of most pink ghetto jobs.
It's a shame because men on nursing floors would be a big help. The single greatest cause of injury on the job by nurses is from trying to move or lift patients they are not physically equipped to do. A man around would be a big help but why would they want to enter this scenario?
Answer: they wouldn't.
It's not nursing. Its how nursing is designed. Same for middle management, customer service, retail and a host of other jobs.
The jobs stink.
3
First of all we spend way too much on "health"care. Most of which is sucked up in profits and salaries of insurance companies, big pharma and medical device manufacturers. Our system treats people like machines, for the most part.
People are humans and thrive from the human touch while dealing with an illness. If we weren't so hellbent in socializing our boys to be "tough" then it wouldn't even be a topic of discussion. Let men be human, and loving and compassionate. And let them be tough and strong and bold. All people have a natural range of emotions and capacity for love.
The bigger question we could be discussing is whether the role of profit incentives are appropriate for inelastic goods like healthcare. Because the profit motive changes the notion of good care. Inevitably this means sicker people, with chronic illnesses (translates to prescriptions for life), given increasingly expensive and invasive tests and procedures. And the outcomes are dismal.
the system is broken. Whether men or women or robots do the grunt work of human care.
People are humans and thrive from the human touch while dealing with an illness. If we weren't so hellbent in socializing our boys to be "tough" then it wouldn't even be a topic of discussion. Let men be human, and loving and compassionate. And let them be tough and strong and bold. All people have a natural range of emotions and capacity for love.
The bigger question we could be discussing is whether the role of profit incentives are appropriate for inelastic goods like healthcare. Because the profit motive changes the notion of good care. Inevitably this means sicker people, with chronic illnesses (translates to prescriptions for life), given increasingly expensive and invasive tests and procedures. And the outcomes are dismal.
the system is broken. Whether men or women or robots do the grunt work of human care.
This is a companion piece to an even more important editorial: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/24/opinion/sunday/artificial-intelligenc...
We have been gearing up for a epochal shift in human habitation. AI will rearrange humans' existence and we are seeing the first drumbeats along the Mohawk with our shifting gender identities -- aka identity politics. The trouble is, as this article accurately notes, a good chunk of both genders do not want change. Hence the con job in the White House.
But we all will have to change, sooner rather than later.
We have been gearing up for a epochal shift in human habitation. AI will rearrange humans' existence and we are seeing the first drumbeats along the Mohawk with our shifting gender identities -- aka identity politics. The trouble is, as this article accurately notes, a good chunk of both genders do not want change. Hence the con job in the White House.
But we all will have to change, sooner rather than later.
1
I graduated from law school right before the 2008 economic crash. There were no jobs and I was responsible for a boatload of debt. To stay afloat I delivered pizzas at night for almost 4 years. Of course I in my wildest dreams I never imagined as a licensed attorney I would moonlight in a job designed for teenagers and lifelong stoners. But money is money and I was able to buy myself time until things worked themselves out in my career. Stop waiting on politicians to bring you a job. Get out there and make money regardless if it comports with your expectations of the way things traditionally have been. Sometimes you have to adapt.
9
I don't think male aversion to nursing jobs has as much to do with denigrating that work as "woman's work" as much as being somewhat to greatly grossed out by the idea of work that involves close, often physical, contact with people, sick people to boot.
1
Men make fantastic nurses. Of course, not everybody can do it, man or woman. But the generation of men who thought they all had to be Marlboro Men is dying off, and younger men (and their wives) are more versatile.
Yes, we're going to need a lot of health care aides, and men can do that, too. The big problem with health care aides and lots of other service jobs is they don't pay enough to live on. We should be turning our attention to that problem and not choking on gnats like identity angst.
Yes, we're going to need a lot of health care aides, and men can do that, too. The big problem with health care aides and lots of other service jobs is they don't pay enough to live on. We should be turning our attention to that problem and not choking on gnats like identity angst.
4
I get a lot of care overseas in Bangkok. I love the female nurses and their cute costumes. Ii feel better just looking at them. That's my opinion.
1
well here in Canada, there are a lot of male nurses
those who are not nurses are orderlies
guess what ? go for the more technical, better paid job. Become a nurse
Anf I should say, it does add an interesting twist to patients' care
those who are not nurses are orderlies
guess what ? go for the more technical, better paid job. Become a nurse
Anf I should say, it does add an interesting twist to patients' care
2
If Trumpcare is passed, do you really think there will be openings in nursing and home health care or any health profession?
A longtime friend of mine worked as a bricklayer for over 10 years. He made good money and was never at a loss for jobs. One day after finishing up a wall for a client he sat in his truck and asked himself, "Is this really what I want to do for the next 30 years?" His sisters were both nurses and they told him to get into nursing. At first he was hesitant but they convinced him that there will always be a need for male nurses. He enrolled in college to study nursing, got his RN, and a job with the VA. Then he went back to school got his BSN and took a promotion at the VA. Now 16 years later he has no regrets at all. He said a lot of guys that he knew would tease him, but when they needed some help or their kids got sick he would get a call.
8
Many commenters here are harsh on the wives who support their husbands' decisions to avoid traditionally women's work. It may be that rather than sharing in their husbands' chauvinism, they are just supporting a man who has been emotionally beaten up by the system and don't want to add to the weight he feels of having let his family down. They tell him to wait for a job he feels good about just to help his fragile male ego rather than because they will find him un-masculine if he takes this job.
It might help if the NYT and other news sources featured some of the wonderful men, young, older, white, black, Hispanic and Asian, who work in health care in hospitals and as home care providers like those my family encountered through a series of strokes my mother suffered. She just loved those kind and strong men, and their infinite patience and cheer made a huge difference in her recoveries. It could just be that the men you've covered don't have appropriate role models, but they are out there and their experiences could help others relearn what it means to be a man--it's the same thing as ever--strong, kind, helpful, reliable, respected, employed--you know, just like a farm hand, mechanic, grocer or factory worker.
It might help if the NYT and other news sources featured some of the wonderful men, young, older, white, black, Hispanic and Asian, who work in health care in hospitals and as home care providers like those my family encountered through a series of strokes my mother suffered. She just loved those kind and strong men, and their infinite patience and cheer made a huge difference in her recoveries. It could just be that the men you've covered don't have appropriate role models, but they are out there and their experiences could help others relearn what it means to be a man--it's the same thing as ever--strong, kind, helpful, reliable, respected, employed--you know, just like a farm hand, mechanic, grocer or factory worker.
5
I'm trying to imagine a similar article about why a woman shouldn't take a job traditionally held by men: notions of femininity die hard, their husbands won't approve, and people aren't comfortable with a woman doing X. Rubbish.
A older relative suffered a bad fracture in 2016 and spent a week in the hospital and more weeks in a rehabilitation center. There were several male nurses, and they were great. The mom-like hospital nurse who offers tea and sympathy and adjusts your blanket every few minutes is a remnant of the past. The monitoring and paperwork are time-consuming, and the size of some patients now requires strong nurses to move and wash them.
As the writer notes, there is a nurse shortage, and the pay has risen substantially. True, you won't get rich working 9-5, M-F in a doctor's office. But if you work the night shift in a hospital's ICU or have traveling responsibilities or a master's degree, the wages can run well into the six figures. This kind of money is attractive to career-minded people, and the work is meaningful.
As for home health aides, their pay is indeed low, mostly because Medicare and Medicaid are stingy. If my parents needed such help, I'd care more about an applicant's experience and references than his or her gender. In either case, I'd be vigilant about my relative's caregiver.
A older relative suffered a bad fracture in 2016 and spent a week in the hospital and more weeks in a rehabilitation center. There were several male nurses, and they were great. The mom-like hospital nurse who offers tea and sympathy and adjusts your blanket every few minutes is a remnant of the past. The monitoring and paperwork are time-consuming, and the size of some patients now requires strong nurses to move and wash them.
As the writer notes, there is a nurse shortage, and the pay has risen substantially. True, you won't get rich working 9-5, M-F in a doctor's office. But if you work the night shift in a hospital's ICU or have traveling responsibilities or a master's degree, the wages can run well into the six figures. This kind of money is attractive to career-minded people, and the work is meaningful.
As for home health aides, their pay is indeed low, mostly because Medicare and Medicaid are stingy. If my parents needed such help, I'd care more about an applicant's experience and references than his or her gender. In either case, I'd be vigilant about my relative's caregiver.
1
Why don't men want to become nurses? I can give you some suggestions.
1. The pay stinks.
2. In many workplaces, this is on-call shift work. Even some of the biggest hospitals (including Inova Fairfax) nurses can and are sent home before the end of the shift--without further pay--if it appears management can save a few bucks and still keep staff levels jus high enough to stay out of trouble . Since many of the nurses work 12-hour shifts, three or four shifts per week, this puts quite a hole in their paychecks.
3. The work is hard, and while it may be personally rewarding, the fact remains that management treats nurses like disposable garbage, and then wonders why you have so much trouble recording them.
Most men will put up with this.
1. The pay stinks.
2. In many workplaces, this is on-call shift work. Even some of the biggest hospitals (including Inova Fairfax) nurses can and are sent home before the end of the shift--without further pay--if it appears management can save a few bucks and still keep staff levels jus high enough to stay out of trouble . Since many of the nurses work 12-hour shifts, three or four shifts per week, this puts quite a hole in their paychecks.
3. The work is hard, and while it may be personally rewarding, the fact remains that management treats nurses like disposable garbage, and then wonders why you have so much trouble recording them.
Most men will put up with this.
3
The notion that just anyone can be a nurse is like stating that anyone can have the kind of skills for engineering or research in solid state physics. No one doubts that some people have a different kind of mental skills for those occupations. Well, so do those who take care of people, like nurses, social workers or teachers. It's not a matter of "oh, look, a decent job".
When I taught nursing most recently, I am glad to have helped several people realize this work was not for them. If we encourage people into nursing who do not have either the people skills or the desire to help, heaven help you if you need care. You sure won't get it from your doctor (although, truth be told, as more women have entered medicine, it's been a boon for medicine).
It's not just a matter of "pink collar" work. Nursing is a profession.
When I taught nursing most recently, I am glad to have helped several people realize this work was not for them. If we encourage people into nursing who do not have either the people skills or the desire to help, heaven help you if you need care. You sure won't get it from your doctor (although, truth be told, as more women have entered medicine, it's been a boon for medicine).
It's not just a matter of "pink collar" work. Nursing is a profession.
7
I am sure that the great social shift from women taking care of young, old and sick family members is the biggest economic challenge of today. As women fought and won the battles of being owned by their husbands, society has struggled to find ways to care for our most vulnerable and dependent people. Society still doesn't recognize the true value of this endeavor. We place far more value on building or taking care of things rather than building or taking care of people.
We know how disruptive the industrial and digital revolutions were/are to society. People-care revolution is the new disruptive force in our economic framework.
We know how disruptive the industrial and digital revolutions were/are to society. People-care revolution is the new disruptive force in our economic framework.
1
34 years ago, my daughter was born by emergency c-sec. Already in labor they asked me to curl up for the spinal anesthesia. I couldn't. The nurse anethestatist assisting the anesthesiologist was a man, tall and strong. He told me to relax and then wrapped his arms around my head and lower back and gently curled me up and held me there,chatting to me to keep me distracted during the injection. He gently arranged me for the surgery and kept me calm during the birth. If some how, someone thinks that nursing is not a manly profession, I always point to this nurse as proof positive that it is.
192
Marie: As I read the op ed, I wondered if any readers like you would comment. I have lost count of the many women who have thanked me for their obstetric epidural analgesia. I am, of course, a male CRNA. So, thank you for writing.
3
I think the study doesn't take into account sample bias. The men you questioned have been laid off. Perhaps the reason they don't have employment is their former employers encountered the same faulty reasoning time and time again at their work. People who confuse belief for knowledge don't do well in a knowledge-based economy.
3
My husband has been a father for most of our marriage which included staying home with our children. He use to get asked when he was going back to work. After over 25 years of marriage people have no longer asked him this. Being a caregiver to our children especially our youngest with disabilities is a full time job. We as a couple have never had a hard time with the different responsibilities. It has made sense and we are thankful. we have tried to find part time work but it seems employment models are all or nothing. And by all I mean 40-50 hr a week jobs. With our son's disability we just can't work that model.
9
I couldn't agree more with Susan C. (and others who might have mentioned this) about the problem with the word "nurse." "Nurse" is related to "nourish" and therefore has connotations related to breastfeeding and the care of children. How many RNs these days actually feed their patients? In France the term for this profession is infirmier (masc) or infirmière (fem), with no suggestion of gender.
This may seem like a very PC suggestion - like, who really cares about the word and its origin? But language is important; words are powerful. If we applied a more modern, technical term to a very modern and technical job, the attraction of that job would surely become more universal.
This may seem like a very PC suggestion - like, who really cares about the word and its origin? But language is important; words are powerful. If we applied a more modern, technical term to a very modern and technical job, the attraction of that job would surely become more universal.
4
If nurses are technicians, who will take care of the patient? We do NOT want more technicians at the bedside.
1
These findings don't surprise me at all. I've encountered many women over the years who've said they would never marry or date a man who did not have a job in a traditionally masculine field, such as business, law, finance, law enforcement, etc. In fact, these days women seem to be less flexible about men stepping out of traditional gender roles than the men are. Popular entertainment only reinforces these biases -- look at all of the movies and TV shows where men are portrayed as aggressive, violent and macho. Our society has a long, long way to go before we achieve true gender equality.
11
Pre-judgments based on gender parameters and a host of prefabricated social constructs fossilized through hundreds of years of half baked truth had only one purpose to exploit, to take advantage of and to do as little as possible to continue to enjoy a privileged existence.
1
I also have wondered whether Trumpcare might lead to recession, since healthcare and the taxation to pay for it represents one pathway for jobs as other sectors have dried up. If we pull money out of healthcare, it would seem there might be fewer job opportunities overall, and then the question would be whether other sectors make up the slack or not. This might be another negative impact of Trumpcare.
Or perhaps the top one percent just are able to pocket more money, and then the market for luxury items and services gets a boost. Maybe the prices for rare artwork will get a boost, which will help nobody.
Or perhaps the top one percent just are able to pocket more money, and then the market for luxury items and services gets a boost. Maybe the prices for rare artwork will get a boost, which will help nobody.
What the Republicans cut from the federal budget will come straight out of the gross domestic product.
1
The plutocrats even bid up the prices of art masterpieces for the tax deductions when the pieces are ultimately donated to museums.
Finally an article that acknowledges the role of sexism among women. That's right, women still want macho men. Not all women, certainly, but enough to affect the choices of men.
Kudos to the guys who are ignoring the opposition from girlfriends and wives and reimagining themselves in the jobs the new economy has available.
Kudos to the guys who are ignoring the opposition from girlfriends and wives and reimagining themselves in the jobs the new economy has available.
16
My wife and I were principle caregivers for my mother for four years. She suffered from Alzheimer's and cancer for the four years it took her to die. She was ever so fortunate: she had saved for just such an outcome and we had just recently retired. We ended up caring for her it 24-7 with day assistance. AND She lived in her homes 'til her death.
We know there are many, many, many who step up to do the same, so very few of whom ever end up recognized for their love and care and sacrifice and dedication. We we able to do so because we were retired and my mother had made certain there were funds for a long siege. But maybe even that may not be sufficient for many children of the Alzheimered. Our generations often finds itself between retirement and dealing with health issues themselves when family calls.
We were fortunate. And so was my mother.
We were fortunate.
We know there are many, many, many who step up to do the same, so very few of whom ever end up recognized for their love and care and sacrifice and dedication. We we able to do so because we were retired and my mother had made certain there were funds for a long siege. But maybe even that may not be sufficient for many children of the Alzheimered. Our generations often finds itself between retirement and dealing with health issues themselves when family calls.
We were fortunate. And so was my mother.
We were fortunate.
12
Thank you for sharing your story and especially for recognizing your good fortune in being able to provide the appropriate level of care required.
Our society is in the midst of a massive shift from "free" care provided by women within their families to one where women are achieving financial independence outside the family. Unfortunately, that shift is leaving care for young, old and sick people in a bind. Government is pressed to fill in the gap, but is unable for many reasons to do so effectively.
We are lacking a vision. How can we continue to support women's independence and also recognize the true value of the work they traditionally provided for 'free'?
Our society is in the midst of a massive shift from "free" care provided by women within their families to one where women are achieving financial independence outside the family. Unfortunately, that shift is leaving care for young, old and sick people in a bind. Government is pressed to fill in the gap, but is unable for many reasons to do so effectively.
We are lacking a vision. How can we continue to support women's independence and also recognize the true value of the work they traditionally provided for 'free'?
2
Ah, robots. One tries vainly to convince the blue-collar worker that soon he or she will be displaced by automation, whether they run the control board of an oil refinery or pilot an 18-wheeler down I-80 across country. Some of the more intelligent ones are receptive. Others guffaw in disbelief that they'll never be replaced by no robot. Yet the thought of some of these rough-hewn people of either gender performing delicate acts of health care leaves me cold. I just can't feature it, no matter how bad things get. Better to move to a state like Colorado and find one's niche in the THC business.
3
Fascinating. The top 30, if not more, highest rated readers' comments, almost all, represent endorsements by males and females of their experiences as nurses and health care workers. Not one single comment makes reference to teaching. What does that say about our educational system?
12
It says that teachers are demeaned constantly by parents, reformers, and government. It says nothing about the reality of our educational system.
2
It says that men know they are taking their professional life in their hands with teaching. The wrong look or touch or words can start a witch hunt that even if he wins he loses.
3
Actually, the first one mentions teaching...
This piece is all over the place. It talks about nurses and home health care aides as if they are interchangeable. Nursing requires a huge educational commitment, a licensure exam, and is a professional level career. It pays well but hours are all over the place and mandatory overtime is usually required, it's grueling and an incredible amount of knowledge is required as is keeping up with changes. Where are these unemployed people to get the money to to go nursing school? How are they going to get into not only the back in school mindset, but back in school to learn complicated terminologies, etc. with zero experience at 40-something?
A home health care aide can take a course and earn a certificate in less than a year and look forward to bathing and wiping people in their homes for 9 bucks an hour. It's one of those jobs that many commenters here would consider "unskilled labor" so those performing it should not be paid anything remotely close to a living wage.
I would guess that these "wives" who are mortified would be just as unhappy if their $45/hr ex-factory worker spouses were greeting people at Walmart or putting price stickers on pet food. That speaks more about the wives than it does the husbands, in my opinion. If you need a job, you get a job. you don't have to like it. Take it and keep looking or do whatever it takes to move along. If your "friends" look down on you because of it, are they really friends?
A home health care aide can take a course and earn a certificate in less than a year and look forward to bathing and wiping people in their homes for 9 bucks an hour. It's one of those jobs that many commenters here would consider "unskilled labor" so those performing it should not be paid anything remotely close to a living wage.
I would guess that these "wives" who are mortified would be just as unhappy if their $45/hr ex-factory worker spouses were greeting people at Walmart or putting price stickers on pet food. That speaks more about the wives than it does the husbands, in my opinion. If you need a job, you get a job. you don't have to like it. Take it and keep looking or do whatever it takes to move along. If your "friends" look down on you because of it, are they really friends?
39
Sometimes hard to disentangle gender-appropriate role from the personal-appropriate role. I, for one (math & computer background) find the physical needs of others, or 'hands-on' aspects, repulsive ; and would never want to do that kind of physically close work with people. How much of that feeling in me was inculcated by being raised in a role-restricted society vs my own psychology is impossible to say. (Although working with animals - say as vet assistant - I could find quite pleasing and rewarding. But same question).
7
As a retired Critical Care RN and Nursing Instructor, I recognize the reluctance of men to become Nurses. Taking and giving orders, a military norm is not the experience of many men except soldiers, cops, firemen, and nurses. In the rest of the working world, men and women are free to create a false narrative in which they are independent operatives who are free agents, independent, and icons of their gender. Nurses have few such illusions. Confronted daily with the leveling effect of pain suffering and death, human frailty and heroism, nurses are grounded by our own mortality and reminded of genuine priorities. In critical care gender and social status is not as important as knowledge and skill. Who you are and how important you may be in your mind or in our culture is immaterial when you are dying, or badly injured and need immediate care. The gender of the provider is not important but their ability is critical. In less acute settings, nurses hear their patient's gender prejudices and their colleagues' foolishness over gender until what you know and what you can do are more important. Doing your best, knowing what to do in life and death situations, saving lives and easing the fear and suffering of the dying is your job as an RN. The cultural inhibitions that prevent men from becoming nurses are symptoms of cultural dis-ease, not gender. Men care as soldiers, as firemen, as cops, and as nurses. How they care is not as important as that they care.
25
Here we are in the 21st century and we have a male sociologist asserting that work is "at the core of what it means to be a man," but not as important to "femininity" - that last word being so full of subjective sexist bias I don't know where to begin to object! Here's an update for Professor Sharone: even the most traditional fathers, if they're as wise as mine was, urge their children, male or female, to proactively seek out honest work to support themselves and their families.
Some 50 years ago, my father, an Italian immigrant who struggled to come to the U.S., worked at every job he could secure (ultimately, getting training in both English and at a barber school) to help launch his children into college (and we all worked our way through, as well). He gave me, his eldest, the BEST piece of advice ever: study hard, make friends with people who can help you in your career, and ALWAYS have your own money, saved away or otherwise for a rainy day. AND, have a Plan B for every job you land. Nothing lasts forever, folks. Being under-employed (and I've been there; earning an MBA in my 50s right around the 2008 financial crash) builds character. Get in the workforce, meet all sorts of people that acknowledge you have other diverse skills, and who knows who or what might propel you into your "Big Next."
Some 50 years ago, my father, an Italian immigrant who struggled to come to the U.S., worked at every job he could secure (ultimately, getting training in both English and at a barber school) to help launch his children into college (and we all worked our way through, as well). He gave me, his eldest, the BEST piece of advice ever: study hard, make friends with people who can help you in your career, and ALWAYS have your own money, saved away or otherwise for a rainy day. AND, have a Plan B for every job you land. Nothing lasts forever, folks. Being under-employed (and I've been there; earning an MBA in my 50s right around the 2008 financial crash) builds character. Get in the workforce, meet all sorts of people that acknowledge you have other diverse skills, and who knows who or what might propel you into your "Big Next."
19
I don't think he was suggesting that work shouldn't be as important to women as to men or disagreeing with the gist of your father's excellent advice. Is it possible that, as a sociologist who works in this area, he's making an informed statement?
10
The point of the op ed: women expect their men to fulfill a stereotypical gender role in the job market. From personal experience, it is so.
1
Sorry it's just an overwhelming fact that women work for mainly for two reasons; 1) they need a paycheck for themselves or to support their families or 2) for self fulfillment, to stay busy to stay engaged or just get out of the house. Their career success is not a big part of their identity or self worth because their own peers aren't really impressed when a women succeeds. They may even wonder why she bothers to make partner etc. For men work is a very deep part of how they value themselves, how their male peers value them and importantly, as this article finally points out, how women value them. Consider the following. Big shot male investment banker struts through the office. Everyone knows their bonus depends on the deals he brings in. There will be a twinkle or respect and even sexual energy in most of the young women in that office when he passes by. But reverse the sexes and it's not true at all. Million of years of evolution tells men to do what women value. If women were deeply attracted to men in the caregiving profession, then every nurse would be a male.
1
I was startled by the author's assertion that home healthcare aids get paid only $8 or $9 an hour. We have checked on this just recently and decided we couldn't afford it because typical fees were $20-$22 an hour, and this is in a region with typically low salaries. When my sister was on the oncology ward she had great nurses. Most were female but a few were male and they were as caring as the female nurses. The main difference was that the female nurses painted my sister's toenails and the men might not have thought of it. We also found that many nursing aides were working on their RN degrees. Men should not count out healthcare as a field but I'll admit that it does require a higher skill level than manufacturing jobs.
6
Most home healthcare aides work through and agency which charges anywhere from $20-30 an hour, pockets most of it and throws 8 or 9 bucks to the actual worker. If you try to hire an independent aide, they will charge around what the agencies do.
11
I suspect the gap between your quoted nursing aide cost and the $8 or $9 quoted by the author is due to the agency involved. The take home is dramatically reduced.
10
You were talking to an agency. The agency takes the bulk of the money and the aide is paid minimum or just above.
2
I didn't know that there was still a stigma about men working as nurses. My cousin recently retired as a nurse, only occasionally doing fill-in work. He met his recently deceased wife, also a nurse, at work. A good friend came to this country, worked cleaning houses while he went to nursing school, went on to get his master's and doctorate in nursing. Now his son, a big, strapping man, and his daughter are both studying to become nurses as well.
I think the problem with the gap in nursing and similar jobs is simple: The market forces that the Republicans keep promising us of supply and demand don't actually work. THEORY says, if there's a gap, you pay more to attract people to the field--The demand is great, the supply is limited, therefore the "price" (salary) should rise. Yet forces from the various industries that employ these people have worked every way possible to keep wages low.
Why spend 3 or 4 years incurring massive school loan debts that will bankrupt you (and you can't bankrupt your way out of a school loan--thanks GOP!) only to make a wage that won't cover the loan payments? Obamacare's not the death spiral, GOP greed, heartlessness, and their goal of legalizing unfairness in favor of the wealthy is the death spiral.
I think the problem with the gap in nursing and similar jobs is simple: The market forces that the Republicans keep promising us of supply and demand don't actually work. THEORY says, if there's a gap, you pay more to attract people to the field--The demand is great, the supply is limited, therefore the "price" (salary) should rise. Yet forces from the various industries that employ these people have worked every way possible to keep wages low.
Why spend 3 or 4 years incurring massive school loan debts that will bankrupt you (and you can't bankrupt your way out of a school loan--thanks GOP!) only to make a wage that won't cover the loan payments? Obamacare's not the death spiral, GOP greed, heartlessness, and their goal of legalizing unfairness in favor of the wealthy is the death spiral.
27
There are jobs such as teaching and administrative work that were male dominated in the past. As women entered those fields, men left and wages stagnated or fell. Society has no problem accepting that a man with barely a high school education earns $40 an hour in a manufacturing job, but a woman with several advanced degrees is considered lucky to earn that much in nursing, which is physically and mentally demanding. Sexism is the reason. Incredibly, the belief that men "deserve" higher wages because they are supporting a family is still alive and well.
2
As a retired nurse with over 40 years of experience, I want to point out that nursing for men or women is not a choice you should make for the money. It is work that is consuming of all your energy and rewarding in many ways most are not financial. We used to say it was a calling. I had worked for very low and later very high pay. I would advise anyone to volunteer or work as an aide for a stretch and see if it's something you can do. It is not for everyone. It was difficult to see nurses come in with high tuition loans who realized it was not what they wanted to do. Although there is a huge variety of work and hours available.
12
There are some traditionally male careers requiring many years of training that work the same way -- low pay at first, then (with professional success) very good pay later on. I'm thinking of academia and architecture. With a PhD from one of the world's top technical universities, my husband's starting salary as a professor at the flagship campus of a large state university was $25K. In 1987. Meanwhile I had a non-managerial position in corporate advertising, making 60% more. But academia is also a calling, as are architecture and many other formerly male professions.
5
The new world of academia hires is the adjunct. Very low pay with no benefits. My PhD is worth 2500.00 a semester. The president of the university makes many times that.
2
I've worked in hospitals for many years and in general I've noticed that female nurses seem more caring and compassionate, while male nurses seem more self confidant and take charge. When I call a female nurse with an issue the response I often get is, "I don't know. Call the doctor." When I speak to a male nurse they usually say, "I'll take care of it" or "I'll call the doctor and get it straightened out." So, I think male and female nurses compliment each other in their differences.
6
Semantics. Neither can act without an order.
3
Recently I was hospitalized for several days, the first and only time since giving birth to my third child 38 years ago. It's obvious my experience is limited, however, the men who cared for me in their varying capacities were much more of a comfort to me than the women (in most cases). Their skill level was certainly on an equal par. Perhaps I reacted more favorably to the male energy because I live without male companionship, or perhaps, just perhaps they were very good at their job. Don't shy away from this career, guys. Go for it!
10
An interesting observation. When my son was hospitalized a few years ago with a life-threatening infection, there was one male nurse who was just brilliant. My son would light up when he came on shift, and he was very comforting to the family. The nurses were good but he had a particularly powerful healing effect.
9
Duh. It is not whether they are male or female. It is whether the individual has compassion and empathy or not. This is not a gender issue. "My male nurse was better than my female nurse". These people are not their gender.
1
I'm a murse. i don't mind working with women. If I need to take orders or directives from them, it's fine. I have always been treated very well by my female colleagues. I've learned and have been mentored by RN's that did it for forty plus years. They were all women. Very wise and caring.Constantly teaching me.
Of course, men can do this profession. It takes a certain type of personality. Not everybody is cut out for it.
Of course, men can do this profession. It takes a certain type of personality. Not everybody is cut out for it.
16
This makes me sad to hear since some of the best nurses that I have worked with are male nurses.
6
This is the sort of 'analysis' which gives 'policy experts' and the entire field of 'public policy' a bad name.
I am 58 years old. I have a Ph.D. in mathematics, have done a post-doc in biostatistics, have taken it upon myself to retain current knowledge in various aspects of computing. I left a tenured job teaching mathematics four years ago for personal reasons. Except for pitifully remunerated part-time work teaching remedial and developmental mathematics I have been unable to secure any work since because, I believe, we are a society enthralled by youth and the latest, fairly often pretty idiotic, thing.
There are lots of reasons for the decline in gainful employment amongst men around my age. Retraining large numbers of them to participate in the 'health care economy', already bloated by the staggeringly excessive amounts of money we spend on health insurance and often ineffectual treatment, is possibly one of the more myopic and ridiculous proposals I've heard - although competition in that regard is intrense.
I am 58 years old. I have a Ph.D. in mathematics, have done a post-doc in biostatistics, have taken it upon myself to retain current knowledge in various aspects of computing. I left a tenured job teaching mathematics four years ago for personal reasons. Except for pitifully remunerated part-time work teaching remedial and developmental mathematics I have been unable to secure any work since because, I believe, we are a society enthralled by youth and the latest, fairly often pretty idiotic, thing.
There are lots of reasons for the decline in gainful employment amongst men around my age. Retraining large numbers of them to participate in the 'health care economy', already bloated by the staggeringly excessive amounts of money we spend on health insurance and often ineffectual treatment, is possibly one of the more myopic and ridiculous proposals I've heard - although competition in that regard is intrense.
4
"...a society enthralled by youth..." That says it all. Despite the aged old men stalking the halls of Congress and the White House, anyone over the age 50 is ripe for the chopping block. No cooperation or school system wants to pay for years of experience and wisdom. In fact, our current government shows its disdain for anyone who dares get older. Look no further than their stupid health care insurance proposals. And if you're female and over 50, you are doubly doomed.
1
Amen, brother. In any profession.
People in the health-care and caring professions need to be paid more whatever their sex. The market simply does not reflect the value of these people and their services. With the aging of the population these people will be in even more demand. I hope that they treat the bankers and CEO 's as they rightfully deserve.
14
Wake up and smell the coffee, people.
While traditionally male jobs may have been lost first to automation, traditionally women's jobs are just next in line.
While traditionally male jobs may have been lost first to automation, traditionally women's jobs are just next in line.
4
Hard to automate changing diapers or putting in iv's. Think again.
Perhaps men hesitate because the jobs they had before required little education. To become a nurse today requires a BSRN more often than not. That requires chemistry, biology (anatomy & physiology I and II), and chem-bio just to get in most programs. I am a radtech which only requires an associates. I still had to have A&P I and II and two years of radtech specific classes along with about 2000 hours of clinical experience at hospitals and clinics. Nursing requires more. It is not easy to work during these programs. Many don't. Some who do work during these programs can't make it. How can we ask people to work full time at low paying jobs while busting their butts at what amounts to a second, unpaid job and intense class room time. If we want people to retrain for new jobs they need substantial financial support. More than that, we need to destroy two misguided ideas. The first is that being a nurse is women's work. The second is the notion that being given money while one retrains for a new, hardworking, rewarding profession is taking a hand out. It is not.
21
I think you are asking too much. Let's fact it, this country is still mostly a male dominated society. Women take their husbands' last name after marriage. Do I need to say more?! If guys are not even willing to do house works at home, do you really think that you can change their attitudes by offering them minimum wage?! Get real. the solution is automation and robots.
I actually see micro-farming is a good solution. Growing vegetables right at where markets are by building veggies factories will have so many benefits including less (low skill) immigration, organic and fresh produces and more "manufacturing" jobs. Instead of wasting money on inefficient healthcare, microfarming should have a broad appeal to both sides.
I actually see micro-farming is a good solution. Growing vegetables right at where markets are by building veggies factories will have so many benefits including less (low skill) immigration, organic and fresh produces and more "manufacturing" jobs. Instead of wasting money on inefficient healthcare, microfarming should have a broad appeal to both sides.
4
I have a feeling that most people would much prefer either a male or female nurse to a robot! I hope we haven't gotten so far from human interaction that most people still prefer the human touch. Robo-farming is one thing, healthcare is completely another!
My brother trained to be a Montessori teacher. He was successful at his first job, and his wife encouraged him to continue.
After changing cities, he never got another teaching job. Montessori schools are private, and there was always one person on the hiring board who implied - or openly said - that any male wanting the job was a likely child molester. He now assists autistic kids in the public schools - although that is going away with Trump budget cuts.
Until society faces up to sex discrimination in hiring for traditionally female jobs, we won't make much progress getting men to do them.
After changing cities, he never got another teaching job. Montessori schools are private, and there was always one person on the hiring board who implied - or openly said - that any male wanting the job was a likely child molester. He now assists autistic kids in the public schools - although that is going away with Trump budget cuts.
Until society faces up to sex discrimination in hiring for traditionally female jobs, we won't make much progress getting men to do them.
1
Two Things:
1) Stop using the term "Nurse". It has a blatantly sexist implication. "Medical Associate" would be better.
2) Create a pathway that allows this profession to transition into physician training and get credit for the clinical experience.
1) Stop using the term "Nurse". It has a blatantly sexist implication. "Medical Associate" would be better.
2) Create a pathway that allows this profession to transition into physician training and get credit for the clinical experience.
So let me get this straight. The military used to be guys only. The medics, who treated the wounded in the battlefield, were men. So, why exactly is it not cool to be a nurse, when it was manly enough for a guy to have been a medic, under fire, in the battlefield treating other men and saving their lives. Did the manly wounded soldier make fun of the male medic?
I have had both male and female nurses. All have been caring and compassionate. I could never do what they do. Always upbeat, always trying to do the most for me or my family member.
I have had both male and female nurses. All have been caring and compassionate. I could never do what they do. Always upbeat, always trying to do the most for me or my family member.
10
Increase the levels of gunfire in healthcare settings and male healthcare workers will flock there.
2
Put a minimum wage of $15 an hour on home health jobs and you will see men displace women. But is that what we want?
"Their Wives Agree." That says it all. Sometimes, the macho forms of masculinity hang on because wives and girlfriends demand it in their relationships. And moms (along with dads of course) their boys to develop their masculinity in a certain way to fit traditional norms. We all want our boys to fit in socially and so male culture changes slowly, but much more slowly than we'd like.
5
I completely misunderstood and misjudged the essence of the wives' 'agreement' due to my own faulty assumptions. I figured some of the the wives had concerns about their husbands spending their days in the company of capable and vibrant females. My bad. (Unevolved cave man syndrome.) It's just about the money.
2
Hmm. I did not know that ~ all these facts and figures. Good to learn.
It seems strange though. I went through the hospital system last year due an infection. Over the three days, the ratio of doctors for me was 6 male and 2 female. The ratio of nurses was even. 50\50 out of the 20 or so.
I got excellent service. One caveat ; I have socialized health care.
It seems strange though. I went through the hospital system last year due an infection. Over the three days, the ratio of doctors for me was 6 male and 2 female. The ratio of nurses was even. 50\50 out of the 20 or so.
I got excellent service. One caveat ; I have socialized health care.
7
People have to adapt to changes or will stay behind for people more willing to take a new path in their life.
This apply for so many aspects of life, not just for jobs that have been traditionaly dominated for women.
This apply for so many aspects of life, not just for jobs that have been traditionaly dominated for women.
2
Same old same old. If more men were in traditionally female jobs the pay would go up. "We need to reinvent pink-collar jobs so men will take them and won't be unhappy". I could just scream. It's not about the value of the labor, the importance of the work, it's about the gender of the worker. I am so tired of being a low value human.
10
Most doctors are men aren't they? No one thinks they are less masculine because they are caring for sick people? Let's see what we can do to reinvent nursing. Recently, my husband had visiting nurses daily for almost seven weeks due to an infection post surgery. One of his favorites was Juan, who told us this same story. I think men would rather have a male nurse once they have experienced this. I know I would rather have a person with the right training, male or female. Oh and Juan was a mortgage broker pre nursing and my husband a real estate lawyer enjoyed trading stories of the pre 2007 crash.
7
The distribution is 34% women to 66% men - and, according to a recent study, women outperform men.
1
There may be some (narrow mined, insecure) wives out there who don't want their husbands to be nurses, but after 25 years in the nursing profession I can't ever recall meeting a nurse who didn't want more men in nursing and didn't highly respect the men who are in the field.
4
One tiny omission from an otherwise fine article: homophobia. One reason men don't become nurses is that they afraid that people might think they're gay. To quote Mr. Trump: Sad.
The nurses I have had the good fortune to know (both male and female) are highly intelligent, skilled individuals, who leave work knowing that they have made a difference in the lives of their patients and their patients' families.
To any men out there who are on the fence -- if you decide to go into nursing, you will have the respect of a lot of people, including mine.
The nurses I have had the good fortune to know (both male and female) are highly intelligent, skilled individuals, who leave work knowing that they have made a difference in the lives of their patients and their patients' families.
To any men out there who are on the fence -- if you decide to go into nursing, you will have the respect of a lot of people, including mine.
6
From a patient's viewpoint, I've noticed that some of the best nurses I come across seem to be men. My theory has been that men who train as nurses feel 'called' to it, where, for women it's too often a fallback position. I don't mean any disrespect for the many great female nurses out there.
The U.S. government has spent billions and billions and billions of dollars in Iraq, etc. in my lifetime. Maybe it's unreasonable to expect that most men in the U.S. would want to go there for jobs. I find it unreasonable, and unconscionable.
I am a boomer with a master's degree close, but not close enough, to retirement. I have worked in "helping" jobs all my life which could be considered female dominated jobs. Biggest regret of my life.
I have been a nurse, now a nurse practitioner, for 36 years. The piece by Ms. Chira mixes the roles of nurse - these days most commonly a person with a "BSN (bachelor of science in nursing) - and the nurses aide or home health aide. A nurses aide or home health aide more commonly provider direct personal care to their client. Every task that an infirmed person of any age needs assistance with is the perview of the home health aide.
the BSN role is a technically sophisticated and challenging role that occasionally might require administering a bed bath. Do not judge the RN by the least technically challenging thing that they do, nor should one disparage the nurses aide, whose tasks while perhaps less technically challenging are none the less important and often personally rewarding.
I have bathed people, done CPR at 2 a.m. held the hand of a dying aids patient, told silly jokes to colleagues in the hospital on Christmas day, taken care of sprained wrists, surgeons who suffered needlesticks and so many other things. Being a nurse, to me, was a blessing. It does not matter if I am masculine, or gay, or straight, or anything. All of those "attitudes" that people might have about men doing work that might be thought of as feminine, for me, fell away after a few weeks. I took care of people and provided for my family, Those are the important things.
the BSN role is a technically sophisticated and challenging role that occasionally might require administering a bed bath. Do not judge the RN by the least technically challenging thing that they do, nor should one disparage the nurses aide, whose tasks while perhaps less technically challenging are none the less important and often personally rewarding.
I have bathed people, done CPR at 2 a.m. held the hand of a dying aids patient, told silly jokes to colleagues in the hospital on Christmas day, taken care of sprained wrists, surgeons who suffered needlesticks and so many other things. Being a nurse, to me, was a blessing. It does not matter if I am masculine, or gay, or straight, or anything. All of those "attitudes" that people might have about men doing work that might be thought of as feminine, for me, fell away after a few weeks. I took care of people and provided for my family, Those are the important things.
9
I recently underwent serious surgery and a stay in the hospital. Care was provided by male and female nurses. My pre op nurse Mike walked me through everything and although I was nervous I felt better having talked with him and knew what to expect. My floor nurse Lance was terrific too. All of the staff was warm and professional. I can't remember everyone's names but for some reason I remember many of my care givers names: Albet, Nancy, Cindy and Antonio among them. I think it's ridiculous to think doctors should should strictly be men or women nurses. Thank you to all of those providing needed care as caring professionals. You have my deepest thanks.
1
Nurses are tremendous, but it isn't for everyone. The following isn't true in all areas of the country, but a lot of men I know enjoy the simple hierarchy, less social (by that I mean customer service) contact, and predictable rhythm that comes with manual labor. You can't fit a square peg in a round hole. Men have been doing jobs they don't necessarily like for eons to provide for their families. Health care requires people to really care about their craft to do it well. The stakes are too high to recruit just anyone needing a paycheck.
5
I am so grateful masculinity dies hard. I'm a proud male nurse. Used to work in construction and photography. I have the pick of the litter when it come to work and employable everywhere. So while you men and your wives can't get past your stereotypes on your way to pick up your unemployment checks (if you're lucky) I am picking up my paycheck, funding my retirement, working towards a pension and going to the doctor with my great health care coverage. Life is good and it began at 50.
481
Absolutely agree. Oldest son went from a Masters in Fitness (no work for him) to an RN and is doing very well. He's always liked working with elders and is now a respected and dedicated nurse in an assisted living/transitional home. The residents love him, and he gets a lot of satisfaction from his work, not to mention a pay check.
3
Post of the day. No, of the week.
1
The US has some deeply ingrained aspects that make this situation intractable, a traditional culture that appreciates work in which men are supposed to succeed, along with a social system that denigrates women's work, and a socioeconomic system that provides no protection for labor, particularly service work, the kind of work traditionally done by women.
Where can it be improved?
Ideally, at least for someone like me, we would move towards an egalitarian society where quality of life matters more than work, that provides some degree of social welfare to buffet against the harms the economy can bring, and that protects labor, particularly service work. Seriously, I doubt that the US will become a culture that focuses on quality of life over work. I would also doubt that the sociopolitical world would change to protect service work. The only bright spot for male-type labor would be in the growing green energy sector, but the right-wing, those currently in power, are focusing on the old industries, which are looking to be in their death throes. Our traditional, unequal, inegalitarian culture makes all of that an uphill climb.
The US likely cannot solve this problem adequately, or at least will not, since it is the result of its dysfunctional culture. Yes, some solution would result, but likely an ugly patchwork that satisfies no one.
We would rather emigrate...
Where can it be improved?
Ideally, at least for someone like me, we would move towards an egalitarian society where quality of life matters more than work, that provides some degree of social welfare to buffet against the harms the economy can bring, and that protects labor, particularly service work. Seriously, I doubt that the US will become a culture that focuses on quality of life over work. I would also doubt that the sociopolitical world would change to protect service work. The only bright spot for male-type labor would be in the growing green energy sector, but the right-wing, those currently in power, are focusing on the old industries, which are looking to be in their death throes. Our traditional, unequal, inegalitarian culture makes all of that an uphill climb.
The US likely cannot solve this problem adequately, or at least will not, since it is the result of its dysfunctional culture. Yes, some solution would result, but likely an ugly patchwork that satisfies no one.
We would rather emigrate...
2
The most telling message I take away from this article is in the last paragraph. The notion that traditionally "female" jobs should now, after years of futile effort by women's movements, be more adequately compensated so that they will be worthy of being done by men. Sadly, I am not surprised.
38
I have worked in healthcare for over 30 years and slowly there are increasing numbers of men entering Nursing. In Radiologic Technology, Lab and a Respiratory Therapy the numbers of men seem to be somewhat higher than in Nursing.
What I have noticed among male Nurses is proportionally more of them quickly advance past the RN level to tracks that require a Masters Degree like Advanced Practice Nurse (Nurse Practitioner), Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist, etc. It may be that in many parts of our nation Registered Nurses (ASRN, BSRN) and other Bachelor's level Health Professions are still woefully underpaid relative to the educational requirements.
Another thing that makes mid career shifts to the health professions is the amount of time required for training. While a Bachelor of Science in Business may only require 8 semesters of 16 hours, a healthcare profession often requires year-round attendance after the Freshman year and is commonly 40 hours a week between classroom and clinical hours. I know of Universities in smaller communities that send students out to clinical sites better than an hour away from campus, adding to the time demands. It can be very hard to support yourself and put in 40 hours a week for the 2-4th years of Nursing School.
Healthcare jobs are rewarding, but are more demanding physically and educationally than most College Trained careers and the pay is low compared to the responsibility, demands and hours the jobs require.
What I have noticed among male Nurses is proportionally more of them quickly advance past the RN level to tracks that require a Masters Degree like Advanced Practice Nurse (Nurse Practitioner), Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist, etc. It may be that in many parts of our nation Registered Nurses (ASRN, BSRN) and other Bachelor's level Health Professions are still woefully underpaid relative to the educational requirements.
Another thing that makes mid career shifts to the health professions is the amount of time required for training. While a Bachelor of Science in Business may only require 8 semesters of 16 hours, a healthcare profession often requires year-round attendance after the Freshman year and is commonly 40 hours a week between classroom and clinical hours. I know of Universities in smaller communities that send students out to clinical sites better than an hour away from campus, adding to the time demands. It can be very hard to support yourself and put in 40 hours a week for the 2-4th years of Nursing School.
Healthcare jobs are rewarding, but are more demanding physically and educationally than most College Trained careers and the pay is low compared to the responsibility, demands and hours the jobs require.
15
Well stated David. Unless you work in a few choice markets in places like California, nurses are woefully underpaid in relation to the academic requirements and job responsibilities.
2
I lost my job when I was 60.
I took a Red Cross nurse assistant course. I have worked at a County nursing home Alzheimers unit for last 8 years.
It keeps me fit and alert. I have made friends. It is honest, hard work.
After 35 years in the rat race, it is good for me and hopefully for others.
I took a Red Cross nurse assistant course. I have worked at a County nursing home Alzheimers unit for last 8 years.
It keeps me fit and alert. I have made friends. It is honest, hard work.
After 35 years in the rat race, it is good for me and hopefully for others.
22
I've worked 40 years in mental health in positions that are somewhat considered 'pink collar' and as a librarian for 20 years, also often considered 'pink collar.' What irks more than the pink collar label is the patriarchal hierarchical power structure of most organizations, in which males are in the positions of power most removed from the actual direct in-person service, and skew the organizations towards bottom-line, for-profit priorities rather than service priorities. Non-profit organizations skew towards the for-profit model, regardless of their altruistic sounding mission statements. While some individuals in administration may have altruistic tendencies, the predominating operating model is business, which is actually impersonal and sociopathic, the self-serving "It's not personal, it's just business." The bottom-line orientation means the organization's sole priority is its economic survival, not the well-being of the people involved. So we see service organizations adopting business models to the detriment of the actual people, workers and those served. Organizations become factories, not cooperatives. I was glad to read that there are actually more worker-owned cooperatives worldwide than the hierarchical owner versus labor model so many assume to be the norm.
18
30 years in healthcare has seen a blossoming of "suits" with no clinical background (Healthcare Administration, etc) who make more money for sitting behind a desk with similar or less education than the Licensed Staff that actually care for the patients. Banker's hours, higher pay, desk job and heavily male.
Do I think the pay differential is related to the fact that most Health Professions are heavily populated by women? Yes I do.
The Nursing shortage will be cured when they are paid properly and you will see more men enter the profession.
Do I think the pay differential is related to the fact that most Health Professions are heavily populated by women? Yes I do.
The Nursing shortage will be cured when they are paid properly and you will see more men enter the profession.
19
The 'patriarchal hierarchical power structure of most organizations' which you cite is alive and well in many universities among the non-teaching sectors. Traditionally female, hence low pay, the 'leaders' nonetheless recognize their rights to high pay for their tremendous organizational and motivational skills. Of course, if you had to maintain a service and had to cut a position while having the least adverse impact on core functionalities, you'd cut the director (oops -- this is higher ed: the dean, the assistant dean, the vice chancellor). Males who enter the field and concentrate on doing, not 'leading,' suffer the consequences.
It's a problem that men have (up until somewhat recently) been for the most part taken care of by women. They don't or can't see themselves in that role. They can see themselves as doctors (paternal) ordering around the (maternal) nurses but not the other way around.
Maybe youngsters of today, who are growing up with fathers that nurture and care for them (an not just by putting food on the table and through discipline), will evolve into nursing-capable adults.
Maybe youngsters of today, who are growing up with fathers that nurture and care for them (an not just by putting food on the table and through discipline), will evolve into nursing-capable adults.
5
Do I want to become a nurse in a world in which that might be one of the few remaining choices for employment? a man asks...
No. Not really. I just read an article on the rise of Artificial Intelligence and how so many jobs will be lost in an overpopulated, environmentally compromised world and how wealth will become more concentrated in corporations, few hands, and how millions of people will essentially be robbed of dignity, left with receiving hand outs as compensation for job loss or be forced to take service jobs--even jobs described as "jobs of love" such as nurse or other "helpful to our overlord" jobs--and how essentially machine intelligence will increase for the benefit of relatively few humans and how so many humans will obviously, in final analysis, be unnecessary.
The inevitable rise of machine intelligence is such that you have to ask if A.I. does not already exist and is moving to replace the human race. What does it mean when machine intelligence not only replaces so many jobs but is run by people with top down control of society by these machines and other technological advancement? We have rise of machine and concentration of the human only in pockets until finally only the most creative, necessary humans are left and then...
Well, it seems a process, an arrow of replacing what human can be replaced by machine until...what? Light bulb in man's brain goes off: "Hey! I already am a nurse! A nurse of technology and the machine! The intelligent machine!
No. Not really. I just read an article on the rise of Artificial Intelligence and how so many jobs will be lost in an overpopulated, environmentally compromised world and how wealth will become more concentrated in corporations, few hands, and how millions of people will essentially be robbed of dignity, left with receiving hand outs as compensation for job loss or be forced to take service jobs--even jobs described as "jobs of love" such as nurse or other "helpful to our overlord" jobs--and how essentially machine intelligence will increase for the benefit of relatively few humans and how so many humans will obviously, in final analysis, be unnecessary.
The inevitable rise of machine intelligence is such that you have to ask if A.I. does not already exist and is moving to replace the human race. What does it mean when machine intelligence not only replaces so many jobs but is run by people with top down control of society by these machines and other technological advancement? We have rise of machine and concentration of the human only in pockets until finally only the most creative, necessary humans are left and then...
Well, it seems a process, an arrow of replacing what human can be replaced by machine until...what? Light bulb in man's brain goes off: "Hey! I already am a nurse! A nurse of technology and the machine! The intelligent machine!
3
The Terminator and The Matrix are still a bit far off. You may want to consider gainful employment until that time. Nursing isn't the greatest pay but not half bad.
1
Nurses in my area of the United States can make up to fifty dollars an hour, a quite decent hourly wage.Perhaps we could get more men to enter the field by renaming the job to get away from gender labels and expectations. something like Hospital Paramedic, Health Care advisor, Patient assessment professional or Hospital medics?
I have worked with medics and nurses who are men in the army and in civilian life. No one questions their masculinity to my knowledge.
I have worked with medics and nurses who are men in the army and in civilian life. No one questions their masculinity to my knowledge.
9
As a young doctor in an academic hospital, I had all the male nurses to work with me. We were doing an excellent job. The chairman asked a man nurse:" Why you want to work with her?"The answer was simple, we are complementary, she is small to examine the patients alone, we make the move, she makes the exam, she can deliver a nice word when we are taking care of the dirty work. We are both valuable. It was difficult to be the only female doctor in an academic department, it was good to teach at the nurse school, they had only men doctors, the male attending nursing school were happy, with doctors without borders, almost all nurses were males as far as I remembered these first interventions, when we started. In France where the parity, women/men, is mandatory in the government, there is no more sexism to be a male nurse.Nurses and doctors are working together in their position, whatever is their sexes.
11
I work with a lot of top-notch female MDs and I think that male/female role expectation is starting to go away (thankfully).
What a strange and empty version of "freedom" our secular materialist system has created. The rich and privileged, who always deny their wealth and privilege, make decisions to enrich themselves at the expense of large numbers of people and the destruction of the planet. Then, "jobs" (or, we could call them varying forms of slavery) are created, mostly based on the problems the rich and privileged cause, or the resources the rich and privileged extract, to enrich themselves. We, the unprivileged many, are supposed to be endlessly grateful for living in such a "special" system, an exceptionalism society, because we have the "freedom" to choose our work, our lifestyle, our destiny. The problem is, no one really has much freedom except for the wildly wealthy, the privileged few. Why should any of us put up with this system when our options are so clearly predetermined based on the gross desires of the privileged few? In fact, why do any of us have to "work" in the first place? Because our overlords demand it to keep this empty secular materialist system from collapsing? Contempt.
10
i noticed steady increase of male nurses in my 35 years as a cardiac RN in major hospitals. Almost all were professional, efficient, knowledgeable and caring, and greatly respected. There is nothing negative about men becoming nurses. It isn't the Nightingale era anymore.
29
Cheers JP! I've been a nurse who is also male for about 9 years. I've relied heavily on more experienced "Nightingale" types for the wealth and inspiration they possess and haven't had an issue with the gender differential. That said, I agree that were coming out of that era and hopefully transitioning into something even better.
1
Ms. Chira is so blinded by stereotypes that she can't see the reality in this issue. There are lots of men who do important health care work involving many of the skills of nurses. EMT's respond to emergency health care needs in a manner that requires many nursing-type skills. Nurses have a greater breadth and depth of understanding, but EMT's seldom have doctors to consult with. While nurses are mostly women, EMT's are mostly men. And nurses get paid twice as much as EMT's.
Nurses claim that they are twice as skilled as EMT's, just the way male lawyers claim they have a profound understanding of the law that female paralegals lack. The simple truth, though, is that the women's version of health care services is valued much higher than the similar (not identical) men's version. Ms. Chira has missed that point presumably because she can't imagine such workplace prejudice against men.
Nurses claim that they are twice as skilled as EMT's, just the way male lawyers claim they have a profound understanding of the law that female paralegals lack. The simple truth, though, is that the women's version of health care services is valued much higher than the similar (not identical) men's version. Ms. Chira has missed that point presumably because she can't imagine such workplace prejudice against men.
9
Totally agree, in emergencies, male nurses are needed to associate their physical power and their skills.Especially in the US where doctors are rarely present in the operative team.
4
What a great article. Refreshingly honest while disconerting.
Yes, while hardly anybody will admit it, women want successful husbands, and RNs won't cut it. Women are not supposed to only want the high-flying academic, successful lawyer or executive, but they do. Most men want the same for themselves.
And, unlike what you read in many of these comments here, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics the median salary of a RN is 65k, and the starting salary (which is probably what matters for a middle-aged man who is looking for a carreer change) is quite notably lower.
These attitudes in society need to change or reality will catch up with us.
Yes, while hardly anybody will admit it, women want successful husbands, and RNs won't cut it. Women are not supposed to only want the high-flying academic, successful lawyer or executive, but they do. Most men want the same for themselves.
And, unlike what you read in many of these comments here, according to Bureau of Labor Statistics the median salary of a RN is 65k, and the starting salary (which is probably what matters for a middle-aged man who is looking for a carreer change) is quite notably lower.
These attitudes in society need to change or reality will catch up with us.
4
I make well into the six figures as an RN. Most women would be happy to have a husband or partner make that much. Being an RN definitely DOES cut it.
well into six figures? really? like over 300k? i'm asking.
Approximately 4 million on paid disability
Approximately 6 million in prison or under parole supervision.
Approximately 4 million are students.
Approximately 12 million have drug or alcohol addictions.
Obviously it is not just work that makes the man
Approximately 6 million in prison or under parole supervision.
Approximately 4 million are students.
Approximately 12 million have drug or alcohol addictions.
Obviously it is not just work that makes the man
10
I'm a designer living in SF. Most of my male friends (at least 6) are male nurses and this NYT article doesn't reflect at all who they are, what their wives (and partners) thinks about them and mostly how satisfied they are with the profession they chose. This article is full of stereotypes. cmon NYTimes you can do better research than this.
40
Fernandez,
I couldn't agree more. This article does not reflect the reality of nursing today. With more than a decade of experience as an RN working ER, Trauma and ICU, I have never worked shift whiteout male colleagues. Most of them are married with children. And most of them would probably rank high on the stereotypical "macho" scale. But if you're unemployed, nursing isn't a quick fix to get you back into the workforce. It's a four year degree, heavy on the sciences. Not everyone can achieve they required GPA on the prerequisites to get into the nursing program and maintain the GPA to complete the program. Then you need to pass the NCLEX.
I'm always amazed and offended when non clinical people suggest the unemployed go become nurses as if it's just some little certification you can pick up in a four week trading course.
I couldn't agree more. This article does not reflect the reality of nursing today. With more than a decade of experience as an RN working ER, Trauma and ICU, I have never worked shift whiteout male colleagues. Most of them are married with children. And most of them would probably rank high on the stereotypical "macho" scale. But if you're unemployed, nursing isn't a quick fix to get you back into the workforce. It's a four year degree, heavy on the sciences. Not everyone can achieve they required GPA on the prerequisites to get into the nursing program and maintain the GPA to complete the program. Then you need to pass the NCLEX.
I'm always amazed and offended when non clinical people suggest the unemployed go become nurses as if it's just some little certification you can pick up in a four week trading course.
2
NYT (America in general) doesn't reflect the design community in SF? Really?
I work as a hospital nurse.
The stereotypes of male nurses have no basis in the reality of the many places I've worked.
My male colleagues are compassionate and dedicated professionals, end of story. They are overwhelmingly also loving fathers and children who use their workplace benefits to care for their newborns or spend time with their elderly parents.
The shifts where there is just one gender on the floor (it's not uncommon for me to be the only female nurse present) can be problematic for many reasons. A mix if genders really does allow for better care.
The stereotypes of male nurses have no basis in the reality of the many places I've worked.
My male colleagues are compassionate and dedicated professionals, end of story. They are overwhelmingly also loving fathers and children who use their workplace benefits to care for their newborns or spend time with their elderly parents.
The shifts where there is just one gender on the floor (it's not uncommon for me to be the only female nurse present) can be problematic for many reasons. A mix if genders really does allow for better care.
21
Two thoughts on this article, neither of which is PC, so you tender souls are warned to crawl into your safe space.
Blue collar workers are not going to take health care jobs. The educational requirements are too high for a 50 yr old worker to be retrained, and most of them are on the coasts which are high cost of living areas. Someone from Toledo will not be able to move to San Diego to be a nurse.
Secondly health care requires a completely different mindset than blue collar work. Factory & construction workers are not noted for their patience and caring attitude. This is not something that can be taught late in life, particularly to male workers who have spent the last 25 - 30 yrs in a factory or construction environment. Do you really want to hear what an ex-dozer operator thinks about someone who has difficulty getting out of a chair? Having worked in this environment for 35 years, trust me, it won't be pretty or PC.
The economists and writers who bemoan the "lack of labor mobility" need to get out of their chairs and spend some time in the real world. The perceived barriers to entry from the old economy to the new economy are too high. That has led to resentment and thus to Trump. The aging Boomers still have between one and three Presidential elections left in them, so we must deal with this issue.
Blue collar workers are not going to take health care jobs. The educational requirements are too high for a 50 yr old worker to be retrained, and most of them are on the coasts which are high cost of living areas. Someone from Toledo will not be able to move to San Diego to be a nurse.
Secondly health care requires a completely different mindset than blue collar work. Factory & construction workers are not noted for their patience and caring attitude. This is not something that can be taught late in life, particularly to male workers who have spent the last 25 - 30 yrs in a factory or construction environment. Do you really want to hear what an ex-dozer operator thinks about someone who has difficulty getting out of a chair? Having worked in this environment for 35 years, trust me, it won't be pretty or PC.
The economists and writers who bemoan the "lack of labor mobility" need to get out of their chairs and spend some time in the real world. The perceived barriers to entry from the old economy to the new economy are too high. That has led to resentment and thus to Trump. The aging Boomers still have between one and three Presidential elections left in them, so we must deal with this issue.
18
Generally I agree with your post but I have to point out, there are hospitals and clinical facilities between the "coasts".
8
"The educational requirements are too high for a 50 yr old worker to be retrained, and most of them are on the coasts which are high cost of living areas. Someone from Toledo will not be able to move to San Diego to be a nurse."
Wrong on every level. Going back to school you can get an RN with a community college two year program which is cost effective. Most facilities will hire you if you complete your AD to BSN in two years which can be done online with maybe four weeks out of two years in a class as person is an RN doing the job already.
And RN's are as needed in just about every area of the country so job opportunities everywhere and nursing pays very well, good job security and ability to advance in many different areas. Pay is higher in big cities and the coasts but that is true for just about all jobs as cost of living is higher. RN pays well above median US wage.
Wrong on every level. Going back to school you can get an RN with a community college two year program which is cost effective. Most facilities will hire you if you complete your AD to BSN in two years which can be done online with maybe four weeks out of two years in a class as person is an RN doing the job already.
And RN's are as needed in just about every area of the country so job opportunities everywhere and nursing pays very well, good job security and ability to advance in many different areas. Pay is higher in big cities and the coasts but that is true for just about all jobs as cost of living is higher. RN pays well above median US wage.
8
Someone from Toledo would more likely go to Cleveland, which has a vast and highly rated medical community.
3
I roll my eyes when women address a male issue
It usually doesn't work
Pink jobs aren't about salary
They're flexible so that women can work and yet still be caregivers
Male gender roles steer men to jobs with prestige and salary as the motivators
There's a lot to discuss on this topic
Women should write the articles for women and avoid writing articles for men.
In today's gender war environment I don't see another choice
It usually doesn't work
Pink jobs aren't about salary
They're flexible so that women can work and yet still be caregivers
Male gender roles steer men to jobs with prestige and salary as the motivators
There's a lot to discuss on this topic
Women should write the articles for women and avoid writing articles for men.
In today's gender war environment I don't see another choice
5
Really, oh yeah we're supposed to be afraid of appropriation. Maybe you could use a 'timeout' in your safe space. I kind of like a woman thinking and even talking about men. I also liked the baseball letter guy worrying about his daughter.
1
Are we in a gender war?
1
I find the title of this article odd, "Men Don't Want to Be Nurses. Their Wives Agree," when the U Mass study looked only at middle-aged male white collar professionals who had lost their jobs and their wives. I'd like to see a study that evaluated the willingness of young men and the attitudes of their wives. I have perceived a steady increase of men in the field of nursing from my early experiences as a hospital patient, in the early 1980s, to my most recent. When I had heart surgery in 2014 in the Midwest, my nurses were almost exclusively young men -- I can think of six and I think there were a couple more -- and to the last they treated me with compassion, sensitivity, and professionalism. It's hard for me to think their wives would be anything other than proud. Lumping home health aides, occupational therapists, and physical therapists under "Nurses" (in the title) doesn't really make sense to me; while all of these health-related fields may be "pink collar," the participation of men entering each field and the attitudes of their wives may vary based on factors other than "pinkness," such as anticipated income and educational requirements and costs.
18
Trumpcare (GOPcare) decimating Medicaid will cause layoffs of tens of thousands of health care workers--both male and female.
It's time for everyone who earned degrees in this once-promising field to return to school. Retool. And try to figure out which types of employment Republican politicians will damage next.
It's time for everyone who earned degrees in this once-promising field to return to school. Retool. And try to figure out which types of employment Republican politicians will damage next.
18
Totally agree. It will be the nursing home staff, home health aides, community health center staff who get cut first. Hospitals with a large Medicaid base will be next.
The Carrier jobs Trump "saved" are on their way to Mexico. The one little coal mine that opened is less than a drop in the bucket. I haven't heard that Trump and family have relocated their manufacturing back to the US.
As healthcare is one fifth of the economy, my bet is major recession by 2020. Go, Republicans! Bring on the suffering!
The Carrier jobs Trump "saved" are on their way to Mexico. The one little coal mine that opened is less than a drop in the bucket. I haven't heard that Trump and family have relocated their manufacturing back to the US.
As healthcare is one fifth of the economy, my bet is major recession by 2020. Go, Republicans! Bring on the suffering!
5
As a male physician, my experience contradicts what I read i this article. I work with plenty of female physicians and both male and female nurses. Most all of them are compassionate and competent professionals. Nursing offers many opportunities to make a difference as well as pathways to advancement including graduate level nursing training, as nurse practitioners and nurse anesthetists. I even know nurses who went on to medical degrees, law degrees and MBAs.
I would say that about 20% of the nurses I come across in various academic and clinical settings in my practice are males. They are as good as their female counterparts and bring their past experiences, whether as veterans, teachers, secretaries or graduate students, to good use in their care of our patients. I do not know of any wife, girlfriend or partner of a nurse who is not proud of their accomplishments.
If there is an attitude that a man cannot be a nurse or that a woman cannot be a plumber, then the attitude needs an adjustment.
I would say that about 20% of the nurses I come across in various academic and clinical settings in my practice are males. They are as good as their female counterparts and bring their past experiences, whether as veterans, teachers, secretaries or graduate students, to good use in their care of our patients. I do not know of any wife, girlfriend or partner of a nurse who is not proud of their accomplishments.
If there is an attitude that a man cannot be a nurse or that a woman cannot be a plumber, then the attitude needs an adjustment.
110
"Times are a-changing" and this article touches on the increasing number of men entering the field of nursing. Though it does take time for cultural norms to change, the younger generations are much more flexible in their gender roles, especially when it comes to work. As the author indicated, there are many opportunities in the nursing field and pay can be exceptional. Though some wives may prefer their husbands work in more traditional male occupations, I'm sure they would prefer a working husband making a good salary rather than one that is either unemployed or underemployed.
As for whether men can perform the functions of a nurse, I can personally attest to the wonderful care I have received from nurses, whether man or woman. It's past the time when we define an occupation by gender and instead look to the individual and what they bring to the table with skills, caring and experience.
As for whether men can perform the functions of a nurse, I can personally attest to the wonderful care I have received from nurses, whether man or woman. It's past the time when we define an occupation by gender and instead look to the individual and what they bring to the table with skills, caring and experience.
14
I am 44 yrs old with a wife and three children. I lost my jobs of 20 years in 2009. I floated around from job to job for a few years until i decided to make a major change. I am now a BSN graduate and a licensed RN. I have been embraced by the mostly female nursing staff at my place of employment. My facility wants more male nurses. Becoming an RN is one the greatest accomplishment of my life. There is NO shame in choosing a career to care for others in need. This article does not represent the other males in my nursing class or myself
127
I don't see any comments giving any consideration to patient wants or comfort levels. I do not want a male nurse tending to my care. Period.
Well, then you are hopelessly mired in your prejudice. If you are in the hospital you don't get to choose which nurse takes care of you. When my sister was on the oncology ward, a male patient told a female nurse, who had a very Southern accent, that he didn't want her to be his nurse. He judged her by her accent and jumped to the conclusion that she couldn't possibly very bright. Actually, she was one of the best nurses on the ward and her supervisor had a little talk with the man to let him know that, and that she would continue being his nurse on that shift. The patient adjusted and his prejudice changed because she gave him excellent care despite his rude treatment.
4
In my nursing class of 125 students I was one of 5 males. I now work as a hospice nurse, and there are 5 male nurses just in our office. I went into nursing after being a combat medic in Vietnam. I have run into situations where women (and the occasional male) would decline or refuse a male nurse, though that has been rare. The women with whom I work want to work with a good nurse - gender is not much a consideration. And this field led me to meet one of the best nurses I've ever known - my wife. I've worked in many different areas and the flexibility and pay have made my career rewarding. "Some" wives might object to their husbands being a nurse, but isn't this just a case of reverse sex discrimination? Equality does work both ways.
56
If the proposed cuts to health care spending, both Medicaid and other insurance, are enacted, growth of jobs in healthcare will slow and even start to disappear. As nursing homes close and hospitals turn away the uninsured, nurses and aides will be laid off. So, guys, good news! You won't have to worry about being pressured to become nurses.
13
A reality check plus humor.
perhaps the real story is jobs available in journalism in promoting stereotypes. I hope I'm right because this is a sad picture painted. plenty of male nurses in the hospital when I was there.
14
As a practicing nurse, I'll take objective evidence over personal anecdote every time.
The absolute best profession is nurse anesthesiology. Over 40% of nurse anesthetists are men and they are doing well financially, have flexibility in schedules and have unlimited opportunities. The average income is well over $175,000. Of course, it is not easy--schooling takes years, critical care nursing is a pre-requisite and the responsibility to keep patients safe and pain free during surgery and other procedures requires competence and skills.
19
I hi have a day different take on this. I'm a retired Nurse PRACtitioner. I have seen males move into nursing, pick up the administrative and leadership jobs with no history in the field of nursing. I am dismayed by this. In contrast, I recall the 1960s comedy routine of Mike Nichols and Ealne May-a take off on "my son, the doctor" -they turned it into "my son, the nurse" and could hardly complete the routine as they were laughing so hard! It was great then but at this time isn't this time isn't funny at all. There are many credible and wonderful male nurses out ther and we're all better for it.
15
The notion that a person is unemployed because the job offerings are unacceptable sneaked in with the spread of the rising ideology of neo-liberalism starting in the 80’s and accelerating thereafter where economic hardship was not a socially generated issue but an individual failing. Here it rides on Masculinity rather than expanding training and support for a workforce out of phase with corporate reality and globalization. Academia was part and parasol of the spread of that ideology as the ‘expert opinions' display.
It takes training and relocation to fit a workforce to the rising gig economy, and that is not happening. Masculinity may not be the deterring factor.
It takes training and relocation to fit a workforce to the rising gig economy, and that is not happening. Masculinity may not be the deterring factor.
7
Hey, dudes, what about becoming a PA, Physician Assistant? Three years of training and . . . " . . . the Bureau of labor statistics reports the median annual wage for physician assistants was $90,930 ($43.72 per hour). The lowest 10 percent earned less than $62,430, and the top 10 percent earned more than $124,770."
7
FYI, becoming a PA actually requires a masters and undergraduate degree, as well as prior healthcare experience.
20
Thanks, Jemmy. Most PA programs require applicants have at least three years of healthcare experience. Popular choices for gaining this experience include working as an EMT, paramedic, or nurse before applying. Lots of former military here. As for a Masters, requirements vary. Check out this NYT article on PA's: https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/03/education/edlife/the-physician-assist...
6
Because I already make more than that as an ICU RN?
After less time in school to get there, with far less debt accrued.
After less time in school to get there, with far less debt accrued.
2
Austerity economies do not provide well for workers, and create miserable societies, for e.g., see us. We need to change our economy to provide good wages for all Americans who could then pay higher taxes and create a humane and great society with paid maternal/paternal leave, free day care, job training and high employment for both men and women, free healthcare, decent homes, and free education and more entreprenurship. This happens when a country invests in its people, not the elite and their investments. It is what we deserve, men and women alike. Thinking that trickle down economies work is a tragic mistake. People need good wages and, dear God in heaven, we really need unions. If home care aides were paid 25/hr, you can be sure men would be seeking these jobs.
24
The market based value of your labor has nothing to do with deserving.
1
My husband is a nurse. It's wonderful to have a naturally nurturing partner.
15
This article reminds me of the male hospice nurse who cared for my mother. I was wondering how that was going to work out, but the relationship progressed splendidly. He was retired Navy, my mother was a retired Marine. The shared military experience was an instant bridge.
14
Often I see a man standing on local intersections with a sign asking for help. I have heard that he has been offered work by local businesses. Today there were three stores near his corner (a dollar store, a gas station, a convenience store) all with signs advertising employment opportunities.
My thoughts are "If he can stand for hours begging, why can't he stand for hours at a cash register? Why doesn't he apply and get some work?"
There might be many reasons he cannot work- mental, physical, legal or educational issues. But it is a perplexing situation to me that someone would ask for "help" when there are jobs available nearby.
I worry about a society where a person is more willing to stand on a street corner than work productively.
Are there any solutions to our crisis of poverty?
My thoughts are "If he can stand for hours begging, why can't he stand for hours at a cash register? Why doesn't he apply and get some work?"
There might be many reasons he cannot work- mental, physical, legal or educational issues. But it is a perplexing situation to me that someone would ask for "help" when there are jobs available nearby.
I worry about a society where a person is more willing to stand on a street corner than work productively.
Are there any solutions to our crisis of poverty?
7
Yes Nate there are proposed solutions but you will need to give up the newspaper where they are a poor fit and read published studies.
Your fellow on the corner has discovered that begging pays better than the often part time offering with out security or longevity being offered in the gig economy. The Precariat: The New Dangerous Class by Guy Standing is rich in detail on what is happening to labour markets in developed counties including the USA. He offers solutions to ponder.
Your fellow on the corner has discovered that begging pays better than the often part time offering with out security or longevity being offered in the gig economy. The Precariat: The New Dangerous Class by Guy Standing is rich in detail on what is happening to labour markets in developed counties including the USA. He offers solutions to ponder.
6
I suppose we need to look at the benefits of these jobs, too. No vacation, very low pay that's not even going to cover housing costs/groceries with 40 hours worked!, often no health insurance, erratic hours, often a 7 day/week schedule, putting up with bad bosses who treat you very poorly, putting up with bad customers who treat you poorly. And standing all day at a job is different. Hardly any breaks. It's painful. It's even worse of you're physically or mentally disabled. You can't really relate until you've worked a low-wage job. Try it once. Go there and don't tell anyone what class you were born in and see how you're treated as an underdog. That may answer your question. Try this while pretending you don't own a car... Take the bus and see how that eats up your day and wears you out when there's nothing left to wear. It's no fun. It's still not going to be so bad for you, because you'll know you can return to your normal life soon enough. Read Nickeled and Dimed for more examples.
I would not want this person working in my gas station or convenience store.
I'm a woman in my mid 50's and I see nothing wrong with a man wanted to go into nursing, I do think they should change the name of the profession to something other than "nurse" to attract more men into this field. I would encourage my son to go into nursing if that is the field he wanted to go into. Nursing is a very tough and honorable job. I have no problem with male flight attendants either, that used to be an all female job and the women were called "stewardesses" back in the day. "Flight attendant" is more of a gender neutral term than "stewardess." They need to change the name of the profession "nurse" to something more gender neutral. Since the word "nurse" is also the term for what mothers do to breastfeed their babies. I think men are more afraid of the name "nurse" than the profession. We don't call male flight attendants, "male-stewards," for example.
26
I have seen men train as nurses and get certification and then fail to get any job. Employers prefer females for nursing, elementary school teaching or secretarial positions. Nursing and elementary school teaching have a high entry barrier in the form of education as well as certification that requires a couple of years of dedicated work which may be beyond a laid off factory worker. Even if a man is able to overcome this barrier, why would any employer hire a 40-50 year old man when he has plenty of 25 year old females to choose from. There may be a shortage of elementary school teachers and nurses in high crime areas but in desirable towns and school districts, employers still have their choice.
12
Currently, most undergraduate & grad entry RN programs are not pouring out "25 year old females" into the market because of a variety of constraints, including scarcity of faculty and high student demand for admission into these programs. In many regional employment markets, RN positions can be difficult to fill, particularly as non-hospital roles for RNs expand to meet the needs of growing numbers of chronically ill and rapidly growing numbers of older adults aging-in-place in communities.
Organizational employers of RNS are typically aware of the value that diversity in the nursing workforce, including racial/ethnic/gender diversity and also work experience outside of the healthcare industry, brings to interdisciplinary healthcare teams, patient care quality and patient satisfaction. Interestingly, in one study published with the last by UCSF researchers and others, male RNs on average receive higher salaries than RNs who are female.
Organizational employers of RNS are typically aware of the value that diversity in the nursing workforce, including racial/ethnic/gender diversity and also work experience outside of the healthcare industry, brings to interdisciplinary healthcare teams, patient care quality and patient satisfaction. Interestingly, in one study published with the last by UCSF researchers and others, male RNs on average receive higher salaries than RNs who are female.
6
As a former elementary school principal, my experience is that we were highly motivated to hire qualified men. If the guys get the credential, they are more likely to be hired than equally qualified women, due to the desire for our students to have some male teachers in their lives.
3
"He has also found that many patients, often older women because they live longer, enjoy having male home health aides to talk to."
But maybe, just maybe, men's pride, patience, and simple ability to continue to listen and respond tend to collapse, when having to pay attention and reply to what could be resemble a steady stream of domestic chat from their own grandmothers or mothers-in-law, for a full shift, at $9 per hour.
But maybe, just maybe, men's pride, patience, and simple ability to continue to listen and respond tend to collapse, when having to pay attention and reply to what could be resemble a steady stream of domestic chat from their own grandmothers or mothers-in-law, for a full shift, at $9 per hour.
10
My mother had a home health care aide and I can tell you they do not stay "a full shift". It was usually about 45 minutes at most. The big problem with the home health care aides I talked to was that they had to use their own car and were not reimbursed for that. The latest one I talked to had 8 clients a day, but in a rural area, they were widely strung out.
There would be more "male" jobs out there if politicians and taxpayers would commit to infrastructure projects. There are trillions of dollars of infrastructure needed in this country that no one seems able to get started. Is it the money? I don't see how that could be, we dropped three trillion dollars for Iraq and Afghanistan, for reasons that seem dubious now, so it can't be that. Its just the will to make hard decisions. The will to spend for the future for the next generation and for the next economy what ever that may be. I don't see how anyone can really be unemployed. All I see around me is work to do, things to fix, things to make. But we just don't do the hard things anymore.
39
In 2011 Obama put forth the "American Jobs Act" to get work done on infrastructure, but the GOP blocked it. Now, this new effort by Trump is there, but it is mostly a giveaway to corporations and has been tied up in Congress for that reason.
1
You said it yourself. The money spent in the Middle East could have been spent here. The payback would have been certain.
In an era in which white women often align themselves rhetorically with people of color (however that term is defined) against white men, what we see through out this article are instances in which white women actively propagate certain gender and racial social constructs, and thereby actively engage in oppression, while cloaking themselves as one of the oppressed.
16
I'm a nurse, and I'd be a nurse again in another lifetime! I just don't know what other profession allows so many options. I have my Masters in Critical Care, but have done many, different practices. I was lucky enough to take thirteen years off to raise kids, go back, and have another whole round at nursing. I can't think of another profession that allows so many options, and I've explored and done serveral of of them. And, been paid very well. That, may be where I live though.
31
I left a white collar, high-paying operations job in my early 30s to retrain as an RN. I'm almost 40 now. My previous work life was very unfulfilling, but paid well. Before starting my nursing path, I first considered about going back to med school, but the time and debt I would have accrued didn't make sense at my age. The decision to become a nurse started from a positive experience I had as a patient in the ICU; the RN who took care of me was a male and he was very masculine but also competent, caring, and professional. It made me think, "Why have I never considered nursing as a profession?" I finished nursing school last December I'm 6 months into my new profession and so far, so good. When I first announced the decision to my family, they thought it was a bit weird. But they now think it is really cool. The community I live in is a medical hub and there are lots of male RNs in advanced roles as nurse practitioners or in critical care. There is no stigma with being an RN in this area.
I've had tremendously meaningful experiences with my patients that have validated that this was a good move for me. Nursing is incredibly challenging! It's by far the hardest work I've ever done!
I've had tremendously meaningful experiences with my patients that have validated that this was a good move for me. Nursing is incredibly challenging! It's by far the hardest work I've ever done!
148
I disagree with the article. There isn't sufficient affordable retraining. Men and woman would opt for better jobs which pay more than 9-10 an hour if there was sufficient mobility. The mobility is restricted by choking the unemployed until they have to settle. There are qualified people who are unemployed and willing to do; however, the profiteers make up any excuse to keep low wage workers in there place. There is a shortage in transportation, nursing, education and home aid workers. Why should the settle for poverty to take those jobs? Labor is kept poor by an inept department of labor riddled by Republican and Neoliberal ideas of "personal responsibility." Lets see how that works out as the emerging markets continuing investing while we demand more "personal responsibility."
22
Retraining is not impossible; there are a lot of 2-year RN programs at community colleges A lot of hospitals will fund nursing education for capable and motivated CNAs. And starting salaries are very competitive- in the $40-50,000 range for hospital nurses. A loot of men have done it, and a lot more are in the process of doing it.
4
I've been a nurse for 40 years; it's hard work but it is incredibly rewarding, the pay is good and it has incredible flexibility and mobility. You may disagree with the article but your points about nursing are off-base and don't reflect the reality of the profession.
3
In 1985, my friend and I worked in high-tech. He had a bachelor's degree in physics which doesn't get you very far.
A PhD, yes. A bachelor's, no. Not sure what it is today.
He went back to school for nursing and doubled his salary.
A PhD, yes. A bachelor's, no. Not sure what it is today.
He went back to school for nursing and doubled his salary.
31
We keep hearing about free-market and supply and demand will naturally fix things.
There is a shortage of home health care workers but wages don't go up.
One answer may be that the consumers can't afford to pay more?
There is a shortage of home health care workers but wages don't go up.
One answer may be that the consumers can't afford to pay more?
23
My mother's home health care aide was paid by the state she lived in. The aide worked for a company who bid for the contract.
As a registered nurse for 17 years in a local hospital licensed for 400+ beds, I agree that there is a lot of opportunity within the scope of nursing for income growth & job diversity. But most people don't realize the increasing complexity of nursing, the physical rigors of the job, and the stressors that are inherent in dealing with life and death situations. Granted, there is more job security in being a registered nurse. But the male RNs practicing in our facility almost exclusively work in the critical care units, ER, etc. It appears that the male RNs believe that they are too "good" to work as a regular floor nurse (which incidentally I believe to be the backbone of a hospital). Also, they didn't seem to be the target of the hospital offering early retirement to the older nurses. Apparently, our hospital wanted to project a "younger image" by hiring new grads to replace the older, more experienced RNs. It was also more cost effective for the facility too - they were able to hire 2 new grads for the cost of paying the salary of one RN with 15+ years experience. But think about it: who would you want to see at your bedside if you suffered a catastrophic health event? A 22 year old RN with 6 months experience or a 55 year old RN with 20 years experience? Seems like a no brainer to me. But even in a field traditionally staffed by females, they are still subject to bias that their male counterparts don't have to contend with.
55
Absolutely agree with above comments on skill and endurance. Would add that in painting men as victims here, the author completely misses that men are often in more "desirable" nursing jobs, more frequently in management positions, and consistently beneficiaries of higher pay for the same positions. Pink collar means something different for men - a compelling article would be profiling stats on these individuals
33
Single mothers receiving benefits are told that having a job, any job, sets a good example for her child/children, even if it's entry level work and they have a two-hour bus/train/subway commute. There's dignity in work, so get work to get those benefits. If it's good enough for women, it's good enough for men. Set an example, work as a health aide, waiter, or barista.
35
My brother was born with Duchenne's Muscular Dystrophy. In his late teens, when funding became available for a home nurse, he wanted a male nurse. At that time (in the 1980's) that was a rare thing, but they finally found a heavily bearded, tatooed, mortorcycle driving Vietnam Vet, "Bill", who was, contrary to all appearances, a nurse.
I do not have space to describe how important Bill became in my brother's life -- medically, administratively, and emotionally. My brother lived until he was 34 -- many years beyond his life expectancy -- and it would not have been possible (probably not even desirable) without Bill. Bill was with my brother when he died.
I heard that afterwords BIll had trouble finding further Nursing work, which seemed really strange to me.
Nursing and home care require a certain kind of nurturing personality. I know I couldn't do that job. I think the personality type is more common in women than in men, but I can testify that screening out men just because they're men is a drastic mistake.
I do not have space to describe how important Bill became in my brother's life -- medically, administratively, and emotionally. My brother lived until he was 34 -- many years beyond his life expectancy -- and it would not have been possible (probably not even desirable) without Bill. Bill was with my brother when he died.
I heard that afterwords BIll had trouble finding further Nursing work, which seemed really strange to me.
Nursing and home care require a certain kind of nurturing personality. I know I couldn't do that job. I think the personality type is more common in women than in men, but I can testify that screening out men just because they're men is a drastic mistake.
174
Professor Williams is right. We need to rethink pink collar jobs. I offer an observation though. I am a cancer patient and I get a lot of blood draws. I have met male two medical technologists in their late 40s who were recently trained for their jobs. They both said they are adapting. They like the steady work. Both men were African-American. People do what they have to do. It is not easy. But these men did it. It would be nice if the new health care bill offered new earned income tax credits for these men and their families. I did ask them if they had children and they said yes!
19
I have a hand injury and have been going to see a hand therapist . While the doctor wrote the script for PT with a hand therapy, most of the Hand therapists are Occupational Therapists. My insurance only covers a major PT chain, they are so limited at the number of hand therapists that the have that the therapist splits the week between two different locations and then they skip clinics in between. My hand therapist is a male in his 50's. Then the clinic also has a Male PT in his late 20's and a female PT in her late 20's or thirties.
They now have a student for the summer that is in Graduate school for OT with the hand therapy speciality. She is doing her final practium before graduation in August. The discussion this summer was just this. Her small OT graduate school class only has 20 students, all are females. Zero men applied. The late 20's male PT stated that his PT class was just below 50% and that was with a lot of effort of accepting men to balance the class. He said he did not get it.
Then I asked what was the difference. They responded that OT is about helping you perform the tasks of daily living. They have a statement of it being more holistic approach. Then they said more men seem to equate PT to be more sports recovery related.
Then we talked about education, Nationwide you must have a Masters degree for OT now. In PT those with Masters are Grandfathered in and you must be working on a Doctorate. ironically both making near six figures.
They now have a student for the summer that is in Graduate school for OT with the hand therapy speciality. She is doing her final practium before graduation in August. The discussion this summer was just this. Her small OT graduate school class only has 20 students, all are females. Zero men applied. The late 20's male PT stated that his PT class was just below 50% and that was with a lot of effort of accepting men to balance the class. He said he did not get it.
Then I asked what was the difference. They responded that OT is about helping you perform the tasks of daily living. They have a statement of it being more holistic approach. Then they said more men seem to equate PT to be more sports recovery related.
Then we talked about education, Nationwide you must have a Masters degree for OT now. In PT those with Masters are Grandfathered in and you must be working on a Doctorate. ironically both making near six figures.
8
I would just add that when they are qualified to be an OT or PT, that is a Master's Degree. There is no Bachelors Degree in PT because you have to be a college graduate to even start the OT or PT school.
I'm worried that the whole health care field is about to implode. It has grown very large and clearly the whole country is reeling under the stress of the cost. Can we really sustain having this rate of growth in the health care sector? It takes a long time and a lot of money to become a nurse, OT, PT. Will there still be ample well-paying jobs for these men when they graduate or will they just be shuttled from one collapsing industry to another? Healthcare sounds nice. Caring. But I can see where people would prefer to work in an industry that is built on making things people want to buy, rather than an industry that draws it's sustenance from the helplessness and suffering of others.
12
The huge baby boom generation is retiring....older people need more medical services. The younger boomers, and gen x that follows, are getting sicker at younger ages than the older boomers did. There is already a shortage of nurses, therapists, health aides, etc. Universal health insurance IS going to happen, fairly soon. That will increase the demand for more health care professionals and technicians.
As long as there are people, there is a demand for health care. Creating goods for people to buy is a much riskier industry, because people do not have to buy what you are selling.
As long as there are people, there is a demand for health care. Creating goods for people to buy is a much riskier industry, because people do not have to buy what you are selling.
6
An important question is why does healthcare in the US cost so much?
We spend about twice as much per capita as countries like Denmark or Germany, etc.
And they have universal healthcare and we do not.
If our costs were cut in half, we could afford universal healthcare and university / trade school which, of course is what those countries have.
And it is at least as good as ours. In some cases better. Same for education.
There are places in the US that have infant mortality rates the same as Botswana. Seriously.
And we are the richest industrial country GDP / capita on the planet.
And healthcare and education are provided by their governments, no need for free-market solutions.
We spend about twice as much per capita as countries like Denmark or Germany, etc.
And they have universal healthcare and we do not.
If our costs were cut in half, we could afford universal healthcare and university / trade school which, of course is what those countries have.
And it is at least as good as ours. In some cases better. Same for education.
There are places in the US that have infant mortality rates the same as Botswana. Seriously.
And we are the richest industrial country GDP / capita on the planet.
And healthcare and education are provided by their governments, no need for free-market solutions.
15
The need for healthcare workers won't be going away any time soon. Remember that huge cohort of Baby Boomers? We're using the healthcare system in increasing numbers every day.
I also take issue with your characterization of healthcare as "an industry that draws it's (sic) sustenance from the helplessness and suffering of others." That sounds like the comments I heard from some people over the years who said they could never be a nurse because they couldn't stand seeing people in pain. Well, that's WHY I became a nurse, to help people in pain. Yes, it's often physically and mentally exhausting work but I never had any doubt that I made a difference in people's lives. And I miss it.
I also take issue with your characterization of healthcare as "an industry that draws it's (sic) sustenance from the helplessness and suffering of others." That sounds like the comments I heard from some people over the years who said they could never be a nurse because they couldn't stand seeing people in pain. Well, that's WHY I became a nurse, to help people in pain. Yes, it's often physically and mentally exhausting work but I never had any doubt that I made a difference in people's lives. And I miss it.
7
Educational requirements are higher for nurses and OTs. PTs need phDs now too. Could be contributing to the open jobs.
6
An associates degree in nursing takes two years. That doesn't seem excessive considering the complexity of the job. Not sure where you got your information on the educations requirements.
2
I recall numerous articles about women, for instance, needing to get into a 'male' profession like engineering. The article would invariably suggest there were all sorts of barriers to women and talk about the need to remove these barriers, make the profession/workplace more 'female-friendly', etc.
(Stop reading at this point if you think the points I'm making are incorrect, btw.)
So what do we have here?
Oh, men have to redefine their definition of 'masculinity'.
This is what happens when you approach a problem from a feminist perspective:
a) Everything has to change in order to encourage women to enter a profession.
b) Men have to re-adjust their self-image.
Yeah, I can see how we're going to see a surge of men into nursing.
(Stop reading at this point if you think the points I'm making are incorrect, btw.)
So what do we have here?
Oh, men have to redefine their definition of 'masculinity'.
This is what happens when you approach a problem from a feminist perspective:
a) Everything has to change in order to encourage women to enter a profession.
b) Men have to re-adjust their self-image.
Yeah, I can see how we're going to see a surge of men into nursing.
18
Unfortunately, your description is true. Women definitely have a harder time entering tech in Silicon Valley.
Wall St. is even worse for women.
And men could get those healthcare jobs if they wanted to. Discrimination is not holding them back.
Wall St. is even worse for women.
And men could get those healthcare jobs if they wanted to. Discrimination is not holding them back.
You can decry the results of their experiences, but how can you discount the results that both men and their wives thought that nursing was not masculine enough------for their self-image.
And, you offered NO counter argument.
And, you offered NO counter argument.
2
a) + b) = correct! Glad you finally figured it out
Chira may be an expert on gender issues, but her understanding of health care seems a bit lacking. She lumps together a variety of roles as "pink collar" jobs, whereas nursing is a profession that requires education (often BSN or higher) and credentials and involves considerable cognitive skills. While we're on guard against sexism, we forget about class-related bias against professions considered beneath "educated" people.
20
I think you overlooked the following sentence that she wrote: "Nursing and teaching, another growing field dominated by women, may require levels of education or training that can be daunting for those men who were less successful in school but made a good living in manufacturing."
10
The male nurses I work with are far more compassionate and caring than the females.
They embrace the job of Nursing.
There are many more females who do it simply for the money, in my experience.
They embrace the job of Nursing.
There are many more females who do it simply for the money, in my experience.
13
I have had experience with both female and male nurses. I can't say either is more or less compassionate and caring. I have felt comfortable with most of them, and gender has not seemed to be a factor in the ones I have not felt comfortable with. This article seems to suggest that it is men's wives who don't want them to go into nursing, not patients. Maybe they don't want to say, "My husband is a nurse"? I really don't get it.
31
I work as a nurse with compassionate colleagues of both genders. In my experience, however, patients have a different set of expectations for female and male nurses. The bar for what is considered "compassionate" is lower for males, while female nurses are routinely berated for having the audacity to excuse themselves when another pAtient is in crises, to redirect verbally abusive patients, to refuse a third soda for a diabetic patient or to delegate non-medical tasks to a tech so they can use the bathroom, take their meal break, or punch out on time.
6
What this article is suggesting is that men who need work train to become nurses because there is a need to fill those jobs, not because they want to "embrace the job of Nursing." They will therefore be doing it "simply for the money." I have worked in hospitals as a social worker for many years, worked with male and female nurses and never observed the disparity between them that you describe. I have found that any time someone is lumping males and females into categories as more or less caring or whatever, they are perpetuating an inaccurate overgeneralization. Besides, jobs are things you do for money. Ideally, you will love or at least like your job and do it well. However, it's a bit unrealistic to expect every member of a profession to view it as a calling, or to suggest that one sex sees it that way and the other simply as a time clock to punch.
I am a female doctor and I find this whole issue surprising and disturbingly outdated. Gender does not register to my consciousness when working with a nurse, only their skill set. I have never heard the term pink collar but I find that as irritating as the rest of the article. Not all girls do pink. Not all nurses are women. Let's stop the a stereotypes! Nothing beats a good nurse period.
358
The term "pink collar" is hardly new and has been used since the 1970s to describe the service industry sector dominated by women as opposed to the blue collar workers in manual or unskilled labor which are dominated by men. White collar workers make up a third major sector. It was part of a larger effort dealing with women's issues highlighting the stereotyping and low wages in field typically associated with women. Such efforts in women's issues are part of a long history that helped make it possible for women like you to go to med school. It is not outdated as long as there are huge segments of service that are primarily filled with women. It isn't about anyone "doing pink." You may say your consciousness doesn't register gender, but research shows that simply isn't true. Gender and race are typically the first things we notice about someone else in the U.S. and judgments are made regardless of whether you think they are made or not. This article does a service by highlighting the impact of the implicit and explicit recognition of the gender factor.
24
What about your patient's concerns? Where do their needs enter the equation?
My son is an RN. I think when this article talks about nurses that they're referring to a class of people who aren't RNs but practical nurses or nursing assistants. It isn't that easy to be a nurse, nursing school was expensive, the books and fees added up, you had to have taken biology and chemistry, plus the first rotation was obstetrics! A middle-aged man looking to retrain would be faced with spending a minimum of two years retraining if they didn't have the prerequisites it would be more than that, and the training is pricey.
57
People think male nurses are men who couldn't get into medical school (isn't this a Ben Stiller movie?). Female nurses are not seen as people who couldn't get into medical school. Female nurses are imagined as pretty gils who are trying to meet and marry doctors.
16
I work in the psychiatric field and there seems to be more male RNs than in med/surg. I think a lot of men work as mental health assistants, see what the RN job entails in psych, and figure, "I can do that." I am happy to work with male RNs and there are mid-life career changers, too. Rare to find a man who came into the RN world straight out of high school, much more common to come from being assistants or aides or laid-off engineers. This is in an area where there are many programs and colleges on all levels (eastern Mass.)
Have you ever met a nurse? Your comment makes me wonder if I've woken up in 1970 somehow.
I don't think that nursing is a pink-collar job. It is increasingly technical, demanding, and central to health care.
60
Is the pay increasing to matching with that technical expertise? Is the gender diversity of nursing changing dramatically to reflect its growing centrality? Is the respect given to nurses by patients, physicians, and health care administrators increasing with these changes? If not, it is still a pink-collar job.
6
You are correct. Nursing is not a pink collar job but, as you described, it is professional jobs. RNs have a bachelors and make a professional salary.
The pink collar jobs are the low paid home health care aids, etc. that pay minimum wage and typically dominated by women.
Blue collar factory jobs vs. low wage pink collar jobs vs. professional white collar jobs. It is a way to make a point.
A Nurse with a bachelors or masters fits the white collar profile even if it is not in an office.
The pink collar jobs are the low paid home health care aids, etc. that pay minimum wage and typically dominated by women.
Blue collar factory jobs vs. low wage pink collar jobs vs. professional white collar jobs. It is a way to make a point.
A Nurse with a bachelors or masters fits the white collar profile even if it is not in an office.
7
Actually, as a career changer who became an nurse after leaving a PhD program, I've found that the answer to all three of these questions is yes.
2
I think the first thing you should do in the USA is get rid of the term "pink collar worker." I'm from Australia and have never heard of the term, it is laughably ridiculous.
I'm a male Nurse in the Australian health care system, and I love my job. It is comfortably well paid ~US$20 an hour and I agree with other male nurses that patients who are hesitant about being cared for by a male often become your biggest converts. The job has taught me countless people skills, I experience many different cultures through both my colleagues and patients, and I am part of a large team where the end goal is getting a good outcome for patients and not making money.
My wife is a Doctor, I love that I have a beautiful partner who is more intelligent than me (she humours me by saying we are intellectual equals but I don't buy that for a second), and I think working in Nursing has helped me appreciate women for all their qualities and treat them as equals. It would be good for more men to work in Nursing, they would learn to respect others and they would have much healthier personal relationships. I never complain about a "nagging wife" because I try to identify areas of friction in my marriage before they become too difficult to talk about. If people (especially men) judge me based on my profession, I think it says more about them than me.
I'm a male Nurse in the Australian health care system, and I love my job. It is comfortably well paid ~US$20 an hour and I agree with other male nurses that patients who are hesitant about being cared for by a male often become your biggest converts. The job has taught me countless people skills, I experience many different cultures through both my colleagues and patients, and I am part of a large team where the end goal is getting a good outcome for patients and not making money.
My wife is a Doctor, I love that I have a beautiful partner who is more intelligent than me (she humours me by saying we are intellectual equals but I don't buy that for a second), and I think working in Nursing has helped me appreciate women for all their qualities and treat them as equals. It would be good for more men to work in Nursing, they would learn to respect others and they would have much healthier personal relationships. I never complain about a "nagging wife" because I try to identify areas of friction in my marriage before they become too difficult to talk about. If people (especially men) judge me based on my profession, I think it says more about them than me.
334
Your wife is a VERY lucky woman; and you an EXTREMELY lucky man. Thanks for Completely Normalizing what should ALREADY be normal here. If I had a U.S. dollar for every time I said, "I cannot believe we are still fighting ," I'd probably have -- like -- one hundred and twenty two dollars.
1
So you're being the traditional woman in an old-fashioned doctor-nurse marriage, including merrily saying that you're not as smart, and trying to sense any pending disagreements that could lead to her growing tired of you, in order to do a better job of dancing attendance and staying married.
This still doesn't appeal to many American men, and if I were to guess, it doesn't appeal to many Australian men either.
This still doesn't appeal to many American men, and if I were to guess, it doesn't appeal to many Australian men either.
1
Daniel -- You are awesome. Your wife is a lucky woman.
1
Nursing, like any profession in the medical field, is a calling that some people have and some don't.
We've got a lot of work to do erasing these ridiculous gender barriers on all levels and throughout all occupations. There are still people apprehensive about having a female physician attend to them. Something to be said about our society for sure.
We've got a lot of work to do erasing these ridiculous gender barriers on all levels and throughout all occupations. There are still people apprehensive about having a female physician attend to them. Something to be said about our society for sure.
25
21years ago my father was in ICU. The nurses that cared for him were all very good but his male nurse stood out. His ability to relate to my father was amazing and relieved my father from many a situation which would otherwise embarrass a very proud and dignified man. I can still hear him saying "Tom, it's okay to..." I'm thankful every day for his compassion.
118
Will never forget the tender mercies of what was then, back in 1986, called an 'orderly' (I think). Mu Mom had just had her 2nd heart bypass, and it was not a very successful surgery. Long, complex recovery. Finally out of ICU and into a more normal floor, she was so weakened ... and needed assistance to get to the bathroom.
A very large, very strong man was called, and he carefully shepherded her in and out, with such tact and kindness. I just remember my Mom saying, 'thank you, thank you' and me seconding it.
Men + nursing makes a lot of sense to me.
A very large, very strong man was called, and he carefully shepherded her in and out, with such tact and kindness. I just remember my Mom saying, 'thank you, thank you' and me seconding it.
Men + nursing makes a lot of sense to me.
24
Hi; The revelation this article purports is old, shop worn.
Sad if true, as 35 years ago I entered the field of nursing and the resistance to males entering a "female" profession were the same. But equally irrelevant to an individual @work!
Now I've just retired (in name only) and in the offing plenty of work for compensation or as a volunteer of needed professional service..
As a nurse I benefited from an unstated rule that has propelled men forward wherever they compete with women in the workplace. Additionally a kinder prejudice seemed to exist where a balance of gender @ work was desirable , me again happily benefitting from my minority , often seemed appreciated simply as a guy in a workplace of women!
Lastly the nursing profession is just that! It requires serious engagement and thought that creates a rewarding meaningful return to any practitioner.
Just saying guys reconsider!
Marty
Sad if true, as 35 years ago I entered the field of nursing and the resistance to males entering a "female" profession were the same. But equally irrelevant to an individual @work!
Now I've just retired (in name only) and in the offing plenty of work for compensation or as a volunteer of needed professional service..
As a nurse I benefited from an unstated rule that has propelled men forward wherever they compete with women in the workplace. Additionally a kinder prejudice seemed to exist where a balance of gender @ work was desirable , me again happily benefitting from my minority , often seemed appreciated simply as a guy in a workplace of women!
Lastly the nursing profession is just that! It requires serious engagement and thought that creates a rewarding meaningful return to any practitioner.
Just saying guys reconsider!
Marty
18
It is hard for anyone, male or female, to support a family, let alone themselves, on $8 or $9 per hour. That's only about a thousand dollars a month, take-home. That sort of pay only works if you have someone around who draws unemployment, Social Security or a paycheck, or if you still live at home with your parents. Plus, CNA and HHA jobs require that one work closely with people and be able to take orders with a smile on your face. Not everyone can pull that off. And yes, it is hard labor. Lifting up a 300 pound patient isn't any easier than lifting up a 300 pound bag of cement, and yet lifting up that bag of cement usually pays a whole lot better.
42
I worked for decades designing satellites. Cubicle work, but also rewarding at times. Lets just say the comedy movie 'Office Space' had a special resonance with me. I once worked with a chief engineer (the person who, basically, has to sign off on the ENTIRE design, in front of the program manager and the customer). An older man, he worked in a cubicle not far from me (the rumor was that he was an alcoholic). Talking over the design one day, I pointed to a photo in his cubicle, which I recognized. It was one of the Apollo capsules being recovered, after transiting the moon and ocean splashdown. 'What was its special significance?', I wondered. He pointed to one of the Navy seals recovering the capsule and meekly commented, "That's me."
We need to promote women for their skills. But asking a man to put away his masculinity is like asking a fish to breath air. Not only can't he do it, but other men around him, his potential rivals, wouldn't want him to either. Computers aren't the only things around with programming.
We need to promote women for their skills. But asking a man to put away his masculinity is like asking a fish to breath air. Not only can't he do it, but other men around him, his potential rivals, wouldn't want him to either. Computers aren't the only things around with programming.
9
How about changing the definition of "masculinity". It is, after all, cultural, not hard wired.
12
No. It's hard wired. The belief that masculinity is only cultural, is just that a belief. There is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise, though to point this out in today's society is to risk being burned at the stake as a heretic.
5
If a physical appendage between your legs is not 'hard wired', I don't know what is. Sure, fine. In a century we'll have all downloaded ourselves into a server on the far side of the moon, where we'll live in virtual reality as whomever we want. But here, now, there's real people hurting because their loins won't adapt themselves to the signals their minds are processing. They need more than 'buck up' psychology.
2
This notion is absurd to me. My mother worked with plenty of male nurses from the early 1970s onward, in intensive care in the hospital, and they were valued members of the team -- not least because they were physically strong. Nursing is an interesting, fast-paced and well-paid profession. If men or their wives are too narrow-minded to understand that, they're victimizing their own selves with their nonsensical biases.
30
Call nurses hospital corpsmen. That what I became when I was drafted into the army long ago. I was stationed in Germany. If you weren't a specialist, like a radio operator, you were assigned to the motor pool doing basic maintenance on jeeps. Everyone tried to escape because it was considered a low status position. Almost everyone aspired to white collar, office jobs, one that won't get one's hands dirty. One of these jobs was working as a corpsman in a dispensary or a hospital. We were envied, not looked down upon for taking temperature, blood pressure, and dispensing medication or what nurse aides in the civilian world do. I guess in the army, like in the civilian world, white collar jobs have more prestige than blue collar ones. Corpsmen were NOT looked down upon. Entirely different environment!
14
My brother in law was a doctor on a navy ship for many years in an effort to pay off his med school debt. He became used to working with male Corp men aka medics as they are called when the are sent out with the Marines.
When in private practice a former Navy medic answered an advertisement for my BIL's practice, he hired him in an instant. My sister, who had been managing the practice since they married had a hissy fit. So my BIL fired her, and told her if she did not like it to go home. He liked how things were on the ship and was glad again to have that efficiency he had in the Navy.
When in private practice a former Navy medic answered an advertisement for my BIL's practice, he hired him in an instant. My sister, who had been managing the practice since they married had a hissy fit. So my BIL fired her, and told her if she did not like it to go home. He liked how things were on the ship and was glad again to have that efficiency he had in the Navy.
I think this article does make a good point about womens perceptions. A lot of women do conform to older associations between men and work. I know women who want their men to be the breadwinner, or at least make more money than them.
Its a proven fact that women seek out men who make more money than them, and that women still prefer to stay at home to take care of kids over men.
We all need to change our attitudes. We need to celebrate the family with the lawyer wife and stay at home Dad, the family where the Mom is a computer programmer and the Dad works at King Soopers, the family where a woman takes care of a man and derives pleasure from providing for that man, and a man who spends all day making the home and gives his wife a martini when she gets home and has dinner prepared. That is the path forward to real equality.
I want to meet a woman who isnt a butch lesbian or a transgender woman like me who wants to provide and will get pleasure out of being the Provider, and still love her man even though he only cleans house and takes care of the kids.
Its a proven fact that women seek out men who make more money than them, and that women still prefer to stay at home to take care of kids over men.
We all need to change our attitudes. We need to celebrate the family with the lawyer wife and stay at home Dad, the family where the Mom is a computer programmer and the Dad works at King Soopers, the family where a woman takes care of a man and derives pleasure from providing for that man, and a man who spends all day making the home and gives his wife a martini when she gets home and has dinner prepared. That is the path forward to real equality.
I want to meet a woman who isnt a butch lesbian or a transgender woman like me who wants to provide and will get pleasure out of being the Provider, and still love her man even though he only cleans house and takes care of the kids.
5
You need to get out more. My husband and I just retired but for the bulk of our marriage, he stayed home and I worked. Once we realized I didn't do well at home all day and he preferred to be the homemaker, I went back to the law and he stayed home. I could not have had the career I did without him taking care of all household responsibilities and me. I never felt he was less masculine, only that I was unbelievably lucky to have found someone who didn't have ego problems being in a non-traditional marriage (40 years ago, we didn't know any other marriages where he stayed home and she supported the family). He was happy, I was happy and we didn't care what anyone else thought about our arrangement.
24
My parents (mother born 1915, father born 1917) both worked but he was clearly the more attentive parent. She was a social worker who by the 1960s was running her own United Way funded agency. Daddy was a union employee at the electric company. She did housework mostly with her mouth. You would have liked them.
5
“Work is at the core of what it means to be a man"
Really?
Take a look at the children of the rich. They toil not, neither do they spin.
Take a look at all those advertisements designed to sell products to the retired. The men are fit, tanned (and usually with an improbable head of hair) and enjoying the good things in life. They have, you can see got money.
One lot have never needed to work and the second lot may have worked once, but now live on the fruits of funds or annuities.
A man needs something to give him status. For most people that is a job and the trappings of some degree of prosperity. But if you have *enough* money the "need to work for your self-respect" magically disappears.
And if you do work and work hard, but get very little money out of it, then don't expect society to admire you.
Wealth not work defines worth.
Really?
Take a look at the children of the rich. They toil not, neither do they spin.
Take a look at all those advertisements designed to sell products to the retired. The men are fit, tanned (and usually with an improbable head of hair) and enjoying the good things in life. They have, you can see got money.
One lot have never needed to work and the second lot may have worked once, but now live on the fruits of funds or annuities.
A man needs something to give him status. For most people that is a job and the trappings of some degree of prosperity. But if you have *enough* money the "need to work for your self-respect" magically disappears.
And if you do work and work hard, but get very little money out of it, then don't expect society to admire you.
Wealth not work defines worth.
11
Most children of the rich (whom I know) earned a doctorate. They toiled very hard in graduate school. The rich kids on reality TV (Paris Hilton, etc) tend to be a lot thinner than everybody else. That takes effort. It may be true that the children of the rich do not work regular jobs, but they don't have to. Many of them show their inherited work ethic in other ways (working hard at studying 18th C poetry or working hard at being in super fit shape). Even Johnny Manziel worked hard enough to get drafted to play pro football. The kid sounds like a jerk, but you can't deny that he dedicated himself to something (football).
I'd agree that a lot of rich kids don't know the value of money, but a lot of them do toil at things (just not making money). However, a LOT of scions of Wall Street titans work just as hard as dad to increase the family fortune.
I'd agree that a lot of rich kids don't know the value of money, but a lot of them do toil at things (just not making money). However, a LOT of scions of Wall Street titans work just as hard as dad to increase the family fortune.
To Philippa Sutton: No, the conflict isn't entirely about either wealth or work. It's also about function in society, because that's what confers identity: the ability to make at least one distinctive, necessary and publicly valued contribution to society. No one can be healthy and happy if held in contempt by society. Not even the "idle rich."
Fine. Let men clean toxic waste sites, clean hiking trails and road sides and stand guard over the mentally ill. There is plenty to do if we have the will to pay for it.
5
There is nothing inherently incompatible about men and healthcare careers. In the past, changing the language of job titles has changed the gender exclusivity: "stewardess" became "flight attendant," "secretary" became "administrative assistant," and so on. Similarly, "nurse" and "health aide," could respectively become "personal health manager" and "health guard," or something along those lines.
If the verbiage can evolve, so can the assumptions about who will and won't fill a given profession.
If the verbiage can evolve, so can the assumptions about who will and won't fill a given profession.
12
I'm a career change RN, now with 30 years of nursing behind me. My accelerated BSN nursing class in the 1980s was 25% men. All of the men ended up skyrocketing to upper level administrative positions as a result of affirmative action. Men in nursing are seen as the rock stars and highly desirable. They promote way out of proportion to their numbers.
Nursing is hard and dirty. The educational process is challenging even for the bright. It takes a certain person to go towards the profession, male or female.
Nursing is hard and dirty. The educational process is challenging even for the bright. It takes a certain person to go towards the profession, male or female.
28
It is critical to note that it's not that the jobs themselves are demeaning; the job is demeaning merely because it is usually held by women. Studies have shown that once women take over a profession, wages stagnate or drop.
(...and shame on the women who think "women's jobs" are demeaning for men)
(...and shame on the women who think "women's jobs" are demeaning for men)
31
I've been a (male) nurse for many years, thirty one in the same hospice and homecare. Mainly I have seen men. They or more often their family prefer a man, usually for good reasons, though the family occasionally sees the female nurse as a dangerous hussy. When I do see women, the occasional times that there have been problems it's usually been the family (often a family member who lives out of town) rather than the patient. I've been well accepted by my co-workers and superiors.
12
nursing is one of the hardest and most rewarding professions there is. men should be honored to have a chance to do that. most people can't.
23
Some years ago I owned a housecleaning and janitorial business. Most of my employees were women, but I had some men too. There was never a problem when I assigned a man to clean an office space at night. But when I assigned a man to clean a house, I got real opposition from some of my customers. "But I have daughters!" "If I forget to close my dresser drawer he might see my underwear!" Now these men were good workers, just as good as my female employees, and I'd carefully checked their backgrounds, and had them bonded, as I did with all my employees. My cleaners weren't normally in the house when the family was home, so the "daughters" weren't actually in contact with the cleaner. None of the cleaners messed with customers' personal items, like underwear in drawers. But I found there was a strong prejudice against men. People felt safer having women come into their house, for some reason. So it's not just the workers who are reluctant to do traditionally female jobs. I'm not surprised this prejudice is slow to die out.
18
Unfortunately, men are statistically dangerous to women's health. So perhaps it's a natural response. Is the real issue male violence and how we socialize boys and men to lack empathy and emotion?
Trump can't deliver the jobs he promises. Politicians and industry leaders have to lead the disaffected out of their changed worlds to a place where this is opportunity. But in the meantime it would be very nice if all of us could find a way to stop placing our collective feet on the necks of this last unprotected class of people. How often do we hear about the middle aged white male losing his job? Too often. I was an executive at a leading institution for 15 years -33 total years as an employee. When I was told to let people go, I was told NOT to let anyone go that carried the risk of filing a lawsuit. It always came down to the white male. Sadly, they are also typically the ones providing for families. And as a result of their separation ("job elimination") whole families are lost. So the anger grows. Trump is not the solution. He is a demagogue and uninterested in solutions that benefit anyone but himself. But that does not change the fact that this is a serious problem.
16
The ad campaign 'Are you man enough to be a nurse' hits every possible wrong note. It is a stupid and counter-productive waste of money, it's like wearing a 'kick me' sign.
The profession I would compare most closely to nursing is engineering. Similar skill sets, similar absolute need for precision and dexterity, similar occasional physical demands that can get strenuous. Present nursing as engineering to fix the body and you might see a change in attitude. Or even present it as mechanics, where getting it fixed right is a matter of life and death.
Dan Kravitz
The profession I would compare most closely to nursing is engineering. Similar skill sets, similar absolute need for precision and dexterity, similar occasional physical demands that can get strenuous. Present nursing as engineering to fix the body and you might see a change in attitude. Or even present it as mechanics, where getting it fixed right is a matter of life and death.
Dan Kravitz
17
I'm an unemployed man. Pay me to become a nurse or whatever job. And then pay a wage that provides a decent standard of life. Really simple.
8
there are plenty of ways to pay for nursing school. Do some research. The pay is good and with the right skills and attitude.
10
Nursing pays such a wage.
7
I am a female who went back to school when I could not find a job. Nobody paid me--I took out student loans and later paid them back.
Now I do think tuition costs are too high now, and that's another issue..
Now I do think tuition costs are too high now, and that's another issue..
7
Some of the best RNs I have had have been men. At the certain point people need to take the jobs that are there or not eat.
7
Good friend of mine tudied and completed Nursing school. He used to be a Motorcycle Mechanic which is seasonal.
He took all his knowledge of physics ,etc and applied it to the human body. He does some tuff stuff in his daily job. Saws off people's legs (diabetics) for amputations. Lifts heavy people (many smaller female nurses hurt themselves this way). Has to witness people die on the operating table.
He's a bigger man than most on even average days.
He took all his knowledge of physics ,etc and applied it to the human body. He does some tuff stuff in his daily job. Saws off people's legs (diabetics) for amputations. Lifts heavy people (many smaller female nurses hurt themselves this way). Has to witness people die on the operating table.
He's a bigger man than most on even average days.
16
“Work is at the core of what it means to be a man, in a way that work is not at the core of femininity,” he said."
I've read this before, in this paper, but it is a dated view. Increasing numbers of women are highly ambitious. Some women are single, child-free, and draw a great deal of their identity from their job.
I've read this before, in this paper, but it is a dated view. Increasing numbers of women are highly ambitious. Some women are single, child-free, and draw a great deal of their identity from their job.
11
And some of us have children and still derive much of our identities from our jobs, just as fathers do.
3
Thanks for commenting. Of course, there are women with kids, ambitious or not, whose identity is drawn from their work.
But so often in these discussions the emphasis is on married moms. The NYT and other publications act as if single women without kids don't exist. A lot of black women professionals are in that category.
But so often in these discussions the emphasis is on married moms. The NYT and other publications act as if single women without kids don't exist. A lot of black women professionals are in that category.
3
The connection with legendary identity is more important than mere wealth. Good work dear Knights, Ladies and Damsels.
Immigrants' mere survival is gallantry. Non-immigrants face a proportionate challenge.
Immigrants' mere survival is gallantry. Non-immigrants face a proportionate challenge.
There is an other profession that is need of skilled applicants. Aviation. The airlines are desperate for pilots. If you are a young man or woman in a depressed factory town, get a pilot's license and build up your hours. There is a career waiting for you.
7
Our office's medical assistant is interested in nursing school and would be fantastic--the patients love him and, as a veteran of two tours in Iraq, he has no insecurity about doing so.
10
I just recently retired after spending 35 years as an RN. I worked in a Newborn ICU for 14 years and spending the last 19 years working in Kidney Dialysis, both In patient (hospital) as well as Out patient dialysis. I was rarely treated any different from my female co-workers. The pay scale (working in a hospital with a union) was fine. I was making $125,000/year (before taxes) by the time I retired. And that was working as a Staff RN. The article failed to address one problem in the Nursing profession -- growing lack of RN instructors in Nursing Schools. If there aren't enough instructors, the RN programs will be admitting fewer students -- male or female. I have talked with dozens of people who wanted to get into an RN program but were stymied by the long 'waiting lists' for admission. And lastly. Ms Chira, I think a better title for your article would have been "(Some) Men Don't Want to Be Nurses. (Some) Wives Agree". In my 35 years as an RN, I ran into lots of RN (married) couples -- working different shifts (when there were child care issues) and working together on the same unit on the same shift.
21
This article mixes up being an RN and a Nursing Assistant. Being an RN can be a difficult job, especially if you work in a hospital but the pay and benefits is generally good. Need extra money, overtime is generally abundant. If a wife is stopping a man from becoming a nurse, that being an RN, then she is taking away an opportunity for her spouse to obtain a good paying job. That being said, being an RN requires a strong ability in science and math. While you can get an RN license with an Associate degree, if you want any kind of advancement or want to be marketable a BSN is required. So my point is you can just jump into a Nursing job. Even as a Nurses Aid, for most, a certificate is required that takes at least 3-6 months to obtain. Lastly, I am part of a family that has 9 RN's, three of which are men. Men can definitely be nurses.
13
Agreed that the article is lumping RN in with other categories. An RN requires a fair amount of science, and passing an exam. It's not for someone who can't do math.
14
People have NO IDEA how arduous, complicated, and professional nursing is today. The old stereotypes are so far from the truth it is laughable. In fact, nurses perform many roles that physician's once did (and often know more than physicians). The technical skills required of nurses is also off the charts. If our culture wants to attract more men (and women) to nursing two things would help: 1) raise the salaries--nurses do incredibly skilled and sometimes impossible difficult life and death work and are seriously, seriously underpaid for the level of their work; 2) change the name. Nursing is too associated with women (perhaps because of the connection to breast feeding). A new name and higher salaries would help males feel more comfortable about joining this profession. Even with the same name, higher salaries speak VOLUMES about what are society deems important. If nurses made as much as hedge fund professionals, there would be no shortage.
22
Why not create jobs manufacturing solar panels in COAL COUNTRY, where so many are unemployed?
14
Why not make a concerted effort to change our 1950s thinking about gender roles? I've received excellent care from male and female nurses. If a family in need of male employment chooses to opt out of any job because of gender stereotypes, how sad for the family.
8
Can we even be sure solar panels will be made in America at all? And with Badcare replacing Obamacare, it seems likely there will be deep budget cuts for services to the very populations that health care workers assist. Trump has never told any one exactly what he will Make America Great Again at doing other than lining the pockets of big business often with shadowy histories and purposes.
9
I must add, I didn't mean to suggest these manufacturing jobs should be specifically for men; but in the context of your article, it might be easily misconstrued that way.
2
My experience as a teacher at state college in the South does not fit with this article. I have had numerous young men in my class, it's s pre - req.
What I have found-- having once worked in health care, that "male" nurses are often paid more than women even though they have the same qualifications. Men are STILL regarded as "the provider" when in many cases they are not married and don't even have kids.
And that's an outdated norm that needs to be challenged because it's not how much money you bring in, but how much time each partner spends on whatever kind of work they are doing, including if one partner stays hone with the kids. The other parent couldn't do their work without that support so it's valued equally---or should be.
Men are more likely to get accepted in the program my college has and get preferential treatment. Regretfully the influx of men and the benefits they have gotten have not been transferred to women.It would be meaningful to find out who is more likely to get promoted. My bet is on the men. There are also many young men in physical therapy programs.
I'm not sure what part of the country nursing is still viewed as "pink collar"--a less than flattering term, just like "blue collar." But I would differ in the Sunshine State.
It will be nice when one day we quit labeling some jobs as more important than others and some jobs for this gender or that gender.
The sooner the better.
What I have found-- having once worked in health care, that "male" nurses are often paid more than women even though they have the same qualifications. Men are STILL regarded as "the provider" when in many cases they are not married and don't even have kids.
And that's an outdated norm that needs to be challenged because it's not how much money you bring in, but how much time each partner spends on whatever kind of work they are doing, including if one partner stays hone with the kids. The other parent couldn't do their work without that support so it's valued equally---or should be.
Men are more likely to get accepted in the program my college has and get preferential treatment. Regretfully the influx of men and the benefits they have gotten have not been transferred to women.It would be meaningful to find out who is more likely to get promoted. My bet is on the men. There are also many young men in physical therapy programs.
I'm not sure what part of the country nursing is still viewed as "pink collar"--a less than flattering term, just like "blue collar." But I would differ in the Sunshine State.
It will be nice when one day we quit labeling some jobs as more important than others and some jobs for this gender or that gender.
The sooner the better.
23
Thank you for this comment! I enjoy nursing and as a first generation college student I appreciate the working conditions, which are much better than those in any of the careers my family members pursued. But I'm not blind to the fact that male nurses are seen as doing us all a favor by condescending to enter a female dominated profession. They receive preferential treatment in nursing school and in even hospital at which I've worked. The best of them don't let it impact their performance; others take advantage of the opportunity to get twice the recognition for half the work.
4
I'm 63 and I've been an RN for 10 years. My pay is good and my profession is well respected. I can understand why nursing isn't for everyone, male OR female. But judging from some of the comments here, many don't have a real understanding of nursing. The nursing process is very cerebral, and easily more physical than the technical factory work I did in my earlier career.
I don't regret my choice of nursing at all.
I don't regret my choice of nursing at all.
26
I come from a family that has 10 nurses, I'm proud to say two of them are men. One went on to become a nurse practitioner and the other one works in cardiac surgery. They love their jobs and the places their nursing careers can and did take them. It's a great perk of the profession overlooked by most people considering a career. Bedside nursing is just one choice as you can work in so many positions that involve critical thinking, excitement and satisfaction, from flying on an emergency life flight helicopter, becoming a traveling nurse, to opening your own practice under a physician's supervision, the opportunities are gender neutral. And I should know, I used to work in a wire mill, I lost that job along with the guys. I went back to school and became a nurse and I never worried about my job being outsourced again. This is the 21st Century it's time to get over the caveman thing.
29
Nurse practitioners with a bit of experience, about 2 years or less, are no longer under physician supervision or collaboration requirements in NY, as of January 1, 2015
1
After coming home from the Marines my son said he was in a dead end job. I suggested he try nursing. He looked at me as if i had two heads Once he decided to give it a try he loved it. Many men may pooh pooh nursing but after taking all of the chemistry biology and psychology etc. they soon realize it's no bed of roses. I truly believe they are afraid of failing. Now that I have retired I can truly say most of the male nurses I have worked with have been great, smart and very caring. Wish more of them had the smarts as well as the courage to step out of the box. Never mind the increase in salary. I started out earning about $10,000 dollars a year. Now any man that can master the vigorous courses earns nearly $80,000 in New York. Surely you can raise a family on that unless you prefer a more "manly" job earning a lot less.
10
Physicians spend ten-plus years learning their trade. Many are leaving the profession because the workplace has gone south.
Seems as if the larger issue is how to fix the healthcare workplace for everyone. Of course, that would mean fixing the healthcare system.
Seems as if the larger issue is how to fix the healthcare workplace for everyone. Of course, that would mean fixing the healthcare system.
9
I've been a nurse for 24 years, and it remains a high responsibility job that, as more and more health care facilities are taken over by corporations, has an emphasis on the bottom line replacing one on good care.
If I had it to do over again, I would not choose nursing.
And don't think that getting nursing jobs is easy anymore: the more experience one has, the less likely one is to get a job. I have been offered positions paying the same amount I made 6 months out of nursing school.
All that being said, I have never seen a difference in skill level or ability to care between men and women in nursing. I have, though, seen a tremendous difference in the respect and deference men receive from doctors and hospital administration even in situations where the women had more experience and were better nurses.
If I had it to do over again, I would not choose nursing.
And don't think that getting nursing jobs is easy anymore: the more experience one has, the less likely one is to get a job. I have been offered positions paying the same amount I made 6 months out of nursing school.
All that being said, I have never seen a difference in skill level or ability to care between men and women in nursing. I have, though, seen a tremendous difference in the respect and deference men receive from doctors and hospital administration even in situations where the women had more experience and were better nurses.
40
Exactly. And that's another socially constructed norm. Male doctors giving more respect to male nurses. I already wrote about men often making more in the nursing profession and they are often seen as more competent.
Ridiculous.
Competence is a human quality not a "gender" quality.
It's hard to believe human beings have been roaming the planet as long as they have and these limiting, non/thought through attitudes towards people based on "gender" are still alive and well.
Whatever.
Ridiculous.
Competence is a human quality not a "gender" quality.
It's hard to believe human beings have been roaming the planet as long as they have and these limiting, non/thought through attitudes towards people based on "gender" are still alive and well.
Whatever.
"I have, though, seen a tremendous difference in the respect and deference men receive from doctors and hospital administration..."
Or maybe, as a member of the female perpetually offended victimhood class, you just imagined this? I think so.
Or maybe, as a member of the female perpetually offended victimhood class, you just imagined this? I think so.
I see several people commenting about biological differences between men and women and nursing being more suited to women because it is 'touchy-feely'. I think this just illustrates the extent to which nursing is stereotyped in the US and in many european countries. I work in public health in sub-Saharan Africa, in countries where the majority of nurses are men, and it is not seen as a female or touchy-feely profession at all. Nurses are respected health care professionals there. Maybe the real problem is the way in which nurses are perceived in the US (probably because it was historically a heavily female profession, and god forbid we recognize women as medical professionals).
35
Well said.
As if a newborn baby wouldn't cry if "male" because crying is a "female" trait.
Ridiculous.
As if a newborn baby wouldn't cry if "male" because crying is a "female" trait.
Ridiculous.
Modern nursing requires a thorough grounding in Biology, Chemistry, Anatomy and Physiology, and now most schools require a college level Algebra and Statistics. If school was hard when you were young it's definitely not going to be any easier because you're older, trust me.
That two year Associates Degree Program at your local Community College will only accept you after you've completed the core requirements so essentially it's a three year program.
Those guys who feel challenged by modern technology on the factory floor would be flattened by modern nursing.
That two year Associates Degree Program at your local Community College will only accept you after you've completed the core requirements so essentially it's a three year program.
Those guys who feel challenged by modern technology on the factory floor would be flattened by modern nursing.
45
I am in my 60s and I have been a RN for 12 years now. I have been very happy with my career in nursing, mainly, as one of my supervisors describes it, because I believe in my mission to make a difference in peoples lives.
Prior to the change into health care, I had been in tech in Silicon Valley for 25 years, rising to the level of a Senior Vice President in a $100 million company, with two IPOs behind me. Prior to being in tech, I had been in the movie business in production.
I have degrees in all of those professions. And it was getting those degrees that made my transition to other professions relatively seamless. They were "legitimizing" degrees.
I would have been helpful for this article to include statistics about 1. where the transitions for men into nursing are most successful and 2. the continuing education propensity in the area demographics where there is difficulty in men making the transition into nursing.
I can see how men in the blue collar areas of the Midwest and South, who only have a high school education, would have difficulty in making the transition into a highly scientific oriented field like healthcare. Nursing is a highly technical profession. If you don't have a propensity for science and continuing education success is diminished.
Finally, I made my transition into health care in the Bay Area, where gender identity is more fluid and accepted. I may not have been successful or accepted in the transition in other areas of the country.
Prior to the change into health care, I had been in tech in Silicon Valley for 25 years, rising to the level of a Senior Vice President in a $100 million company, with two IPOs behind me. Prior to being in tech, I had been in the movie business in production.
I have degrees in all of those professions. And it was getting those degrees that made my transition to other professions relatively seamless. They were "legitimizing" degrees.
I would have been helpful for this article to include statistics about 1. where the transitions for men into nursing are most successful and 2. the continuing education propensity in the area demographics where there is difficulty in men making the transition into nursing.
I can see how men in the blue collar areas of the Midwest and South, who only have a high school education, would have difficulty in making the transition into a highly scientific oriented field like healthcare. Nursing is a highly technical profession. If you don't have a propensity for science and continuing education success is diminished.
Finally, I made my transition into health care in the Bay Area, where gender identity is more fluid and accepted. I may not have been successful or accepted in the transition in other areas of the country.
61
Here at the retirement community, one of our best-loved waiters in the dining room is a very handsome, personable black male community college student.
Recently he decided to study nursing, after taking another part-time job as a home health aide. And the response and encouragement of both staff and residents has been amazing and has given him great encouragement.
It's really wonderful to see how many residents want to hug this guy! And we do! He's tall and has been a basketball player, so he has no doubts about his masculinity, I'm sure. Also he has a close male cousin, who is already in a nursing program.
I suspect he's the first in his family to go to college. My husband, a former college professor, has given him advice. And so have I, a retired clinical psychologist.
This young man, with all the support he has and his winning personality, together with his drive to succeed and be financially prosperous, may make it all the way. We all hope he does!
By chance, our Activity Director had recently connected up with someone in the nursing program at our local large university. And a meeting with her will happen soon, when she's here for some program. So he'll probably get a leg up on admission to their program, once he's through the community college.
Maybe it just "takes a village"!
Recently he decided to study nursing, after taking another part-time job as a home health aide. And the response and encouragement of both staff and residents has been amazing and has given him great encouragement.
It's really wonderful to see how many residents want to hug this guy! And we do! He's tall and has been a basketball player, so he has no doubts about his masculinity, I'm sure. Also he has a close male cousin, who is already in a nursing program.
I suspect he's the first in his family to go to college. My husband, a former college professor, has given him advice. And so have I, a retired clinical psychologist.
This young man, with all the support he has and his winning personality, together with his drive to succeed and be financially prosperous, may make it all the way. We all hope he does!
By chance, our Activity Director had recently connected up with someone in the nursing program at our local large university. And a meeting with her will happen soon, when she's here for some program. So he'll probably get a leg up on admission to their program, once he's through the community college.
Maybe it just "takes a village"!
31
Really lovely reading your letter. As a former adjunct faculty in an RN program, it is heartening to hear how your residents mentored this young man. Nursing is a fulfilling career that transcends (and defies) the blue collar/white collar distinction. Having worked as a therapist yourself, and your husband working in education, you no doubt look back on your careers with pride, an experience these young men will also have pause to do one day.
2
Certainty, not all men/women feel this way. I recall being in the hospital in Pittsburgh back in 1992. One of my nurses had been a steel worker, but when the steel mills closed, he retrained and became a nurse. He was a wonderful man and very gentle and caring.
24
Yes, and all the families where the men won't accept anything but "man's" work are obviously not starving to death, or in any serious economic trouble. If they were really broke they would take those "pink-collar" jobs, but instead they are somehow managing to keep going with savings, wives' incomes, unemployment insurance or what have you--all the while complaining to high heaven that they must have "man's work" and voting for Donald Trump because he promised it to them. There's a lot more fat in the US economy than any economist, right- or left-wing, has yet to study.
22
Liberal wishful thinking and dogma notwithstanding, it is a fact that men are responsible for the vast majority of violent crime, abuse etc, for purely biological reasons - no matter how hard liberals try to ignore this fact, there are actual differences between men and women, not everything is a social construct. The rationale for preferring female nurses and health care workers is entirely reasonable.
2
Should men not be doctors for the same reasons?
11
Doctors are rarely alone with a defenceless patient in the way that nurses, especially those in home health care, are. A doctor in a hospital is sourrounded by other staff, and doctors with their own practice also have assistants around them. In fact, a doctor who works alone in his practice would seem suspicious to most people.
As a male medical student, I do not see the logic in your statement. Are you saying that you are not alright with me becoming a doctor (where I'll also have plenty of patient contact) because of my biologically-determined aggressive and violent tendencies?
More likely, you are fallaciously thinking that because men commit more violent crimes than women (which is true) that a similar phenomena of increased abuse would occur by increasing hiring of males in these female-dominant professions. You are wrong because you don't realize than there are better predictors of aggression than sex alone, such as education level and previous behavior (measured by reviews from former bosses or from criminal record). How convenient that your dichotomous thinking maintains the gender status quo.
More likely, you are fallaciously thinking that because men commit more violent crimes than women (which is true) that a similar phenomena of increased abuse would occur by increasing hiring of males in these female-dominant professions. You are wrong because you don't realize than there are better predictors of aggression than sex alone, such as education level and previous behavior (measured by reviews from former bosses or from criminal record). How convenient that your dichotomous thinking maintains the gender status quo.
2
As a Human Resource Director in hospitals for many years we tried many different ways to attract men to the nursing and other health care (radiology, laboratory, surgery, cardiology, physical therapy, pharmacist, occupational therapy, etc...) professions with minimal success. It is difficult to get men to understand there are many positions in nursing beside being a bedside nurse. Nursing is an excellent profession and it opens avenues into specialty areas, administrative and management positions, the opportunity to travel and the ability to relocate, should one choose to do so. Hospitals and other health care related facilities always have openings, just as this article describes. You can go to a Community (Junior) College for 2 years obtain an Associates Degree, take the state board exam for an RN and be on your way. The pay and fringe benefits are not bad and I think the article does a disservice in their description of saying "lower paying jobs." Might sound like a recruiter and you'd be correct. Being retired and older we Senior citizens need all the nurses (and other health care workers) to help provide for our health care needs.
17
My father graduated as one of four RN male nurses in 1937. His was a choice of necessity due to the family farm going broke, his mother was a LPN, and Los Angeles County Hospital nursing college RN program only took two years, so he'd have a job quicker to support his widowed mother, and five brothers. He was descriminated against by both hospitals and female nurse coworkers. But, still did find work. Then, in WW II, he was a corpsman in the army. After the war, the only hospitals that would hire him were government run, the Bureau of Indian Affairs hospital in Nevada and finally, the VA hospital in Portland. I was always so proud of him as was my mother, also a RN. Now, at least in Portland, many hospitals seem to have male RNs. When I tell them about my Dad, they say he was a real pioneer. Yes, he was. But, like all pioneers, it wasn't easy and frequently sad due to the attitude of female coworkers and the physicians who seemed to look down on nurses and male nurses in particular. Hope that attitude is changing.
44
I worked in the hospital system for years, and some of finest nurses I met were gay men. They respected the women they worked with, were kind to the people they cared for, were physically strong enough to deal with large or disturbed patients, and reassured men who weren't used to receiving help with their personal care from women. I hope many more men enter the profession. They're an asset.
110
It's interesting to look at 'prime working ages of 20-65'... most 40+ workers are extremely knowledgeable. But they are not at their peak of energy/creativity. Unless they are moving from one job they have dead-ended in to another that they have not become channelized to. Basically, as people's capabilities shift from energy creativity and trainability to knowledge and insight there are not upgraded jobs available for them to work up to, so they become like Kevin in The Office if they can hang on through downsizings at all.
4
I'm male and I tried to get into nursing school after spending a decade caring for my children. There's a big prerequisite problem for returning college students. Each college has vastly differing requirements for admission so it's nearly impossible to apply to several programs without taking a few classes at each college where you want to apply. Combine this with an unwillingness to allow a potential nursing student to retake a class, such as English, where they received a B or C grade prior to the introduction of grade inflation.
18
At some point, does it not come down to this: Do you want a job that requires training, pays well, is valued by the community, and that actually exists, or don't you?
219
Here in Australia, nurses consistently rate at, or near, the top of "most trusted profession" lists, higher than physicians, higher than lawyers, and massively higher than politicians, who consistently rate at or near the bottom.
5
A good friend is an RN and his wife is in nursing school. He makes a good salary and has plenty of overtime. He set his mind to it, started in his thirties, got through with colors and is heading for the top.
Would appear to be a good career move and more than a few financial assistance programs available.
A timely article.
Would appear to be a good career move and more than a few financial assistance programs available.
A timely article.
26
Even when men want to take traditionally female jobs they can run into a whole lot of resistance. You know all those stories that women have about how tough it is when they work in predominately male workplaces? When women are the ones in power and in the majority they do pretty much the same thing to those these see as outsiders or as a threat as men do. I know this from experience having spent most of my working life working, mostly quite happily, with and for women, although not in a medical setting. I've known many nurses and aids, mostly female, and I've heard their stories. My mother and sisters worked for years as aids in convalescent hospitals and time after time when a male nurse or aid would be hired the other nurses would harass and humiliate and complain until one way or another they got rid of him. My mother liked the guys and didn't approve of the way they were treated, but mostly kept quiet because she couldn't afford to risk her own job.
I do not mean to sound like I'm bashing women. It's just that no gender has a monopoly on either good or bad behavior. It's tough for anyone, male or female, who "threatens" the status quo because there will always be resistance from those, male or female, who are benefiting from the way things are. I just think it's important to point out that male ego is not the only reason for men avoiding certain jobs.
I do not mean to sound like I'm bashing women. It's just that no gender has a monopoly on either good or bad behavior. It's tough for anyone, male or female, who "threatens" the status quo because there will always be resistance from those, male or female, who are benefiting from the way things are. I just think it's important to point out that male ego is not the only reason for men avoiding certain jobs.
47
I worked in administration at a major university. I was the only male staff member among dozens of women. It was absolutely a girl's club. and I was never going to be a member. I really had to watch my step as any degree of masculinity could be viewed as a threat or just undesirable in the workplace. I was finally forced out and replaced by a woman.
It wasn't just me who paid a price. I saw young women who were fresh out of college taken under the wings of smitten female bosses (the old "Oh, she reminds me of myself at that age!") and groomed and promoted beyond their abilities while other, shall we say older and less attractive, women were passed over and left at lower levels.
And all the while, the university was very involved with "diversity" measures that were directed at getting more women in jobs where they were underrepresented while ignoring the real diversity problem. Nearly 75% of the workforce was already female! Do you think any of the women there cared that men were not getting hired? Not in the slightest.
It wasn't just me who paid a price. I saw young women who were fresh out of college taken under the wings of smitten female bosses (the old "Oh, she reminds me of myself at that age!") and groomed and promoted beyond their abilities while other, shall we say older and less attractive, women were passed over and left at lower levels.
And all the while, the university was very involved with "diversity" measures that were directed at getting more women in jobs where they were underrepresented while ignoring the real diversity problem. Nearly 75% of the workforce was already female! Do you think any of the women there cared that men were not getting hired? Not in the slightest.
13
I've worked in healthcare for more than 25 years and I have been witness to all sorts of irregularities in hiring and treatment of nursing staff. Generally men are promoted into management at the same rates as women BUT they are often paid more with less experience AND education.
11
As a physician I have always felt that male nurses are as caring as female nurses. Also, they have better physical abilities than female nurses. I noticed it from the very first day of my clinical rotations, nursing is a hard physical profession. Finally, I have noticed that male nurses concentrate in various specialty nursing careers like critical care, anesthesia , cardiac cath labs, emergency medicine and mental health.
42
As a retired clinical psychologist, Iagree with your assessment.
1
I'm sorry, but we guys just don't have these instincts in the same degree as women. For me, some of these jobs would be nightmarish and under those circumstances, I doubt I'd do my best.
Let's stop trying to dress men in pink and become realistic about the fact that while *individual* men and women feel comfortable about crossing traditional gender boundaries and should be free to do so, on the whole, men and women are not the same: I don't seen men rushing to be nurses or kindergarten teachers and I don't see women rushing to be plumbers or roofers.
I should add that I've crossed gender boundaries myself -- I had a summer job working as a secretary in college (I'm an excellent typist). It isn't about that, or at least in my case it isn't. It's about my instincts. In medicine, I would immediately gravitate to a physician's position, because it is more cerebral and less touch-feely/boring, but if I lacked the qualifications to get a medical degree, I'd become an electronics technician or polish the floors or something.
If we really care about the nation's men, we'll bring back those good factory jobs from the low-wage countries where lopsided trade agreements have sent them.
Let's stop trying to dress men in pink and become realistic about the fact that while *individual* men and women feel comfortable about crossing traditional gender boundaries and should be free to do so, on the whole, men and women are not the same: I don't seen men rushing to be nurses or kindergarten teachers and I don't see women rushing to be plumbers or roofers.
I should add that I've crossed gender boundaries myself -- I had a summer job working as a secretary in college (I'm an excellent typist). It isn't about that, or at least in my case it isn't. It's about my instincts. In medicine, I would immediately gravitate to a physician's position, because it is more cerebral and less touch-feely/boring, but if I lacked the qualifications to get a medical degree, I'd become an electronics technician or polish the floors or something.
If we really care about the nation's men, we'll bring back those good factory jobs from the low-wage countries where lopsided trade agreements have sent them.
8
You really have no idea what a nurse does saying this. None.
74
"If we really care about the nation's men, we'll bring back those good factory jobs from the low-wage countries where lopsided trade agreements have sent them."
It's not just globalization that's undermining "good factory jobs"--it's automation. Even if we had the political will to do it (which we don't), slapping large tariffs on imports will only accelerate that trend. Better to get going on a new, robot-proof career than pine for the manufacturing jobs of a bygone century.
It's not just globalization that's undermining "good factory jobs"--it's automation. Even if we had the political will to do it (which we don't), slapping large tariffs on imports will only accelerate that trend. Better to get going on a new, robot-proof career than pine for the manufacturing jobs of a bygone century.
57
Ok, then.
Why not try the he-man work of laboring in the agricultural fields then? Pruning, planting, harvesting...
Sorry, but this sounds a little like a hungry man turning down food because he doesn't like the way it's prepared.
The jobs that have gone overseas are disappearing to automation. Now what?
Why not try the he-man work of laboring in the agricultural fields then? Pruning, planting, harvesting...
Sorry, but this sounds a little like a hungry man turning down food because he doesn't like the way it's prepared.
The jobs that have gone overseas are disappearing to automation. Now what?
41
A lot of nursing now is technical and paperwork..
ICU , OR, ER, and anesthesia nurser are dealing more with complicated equipment , computers, and patients than traditional bedside nurses.
Besides pay $40-86k for an RN is better than many middle class jobs.
Patients still call male RNs doctor by habit.
ICU , OR, ER, and anesthesia nurser are dealing more with complicated equipment , computers, and patients than traditional bedside nurses.
Besides pay $40-86k for an RN is better than many middle class jobs.
Patients still call male RNs doctor by habit.
16
Not habit, ignorance. Many nurses are men, many doctors are women. They are different jobs with different education and training; one is not superior to the other. I am a physician, I introduce myself as a physician, my name tag has MD on it. Yet, at the end of many patient conversations I ask "do you have any questions?" and get "when will I see the doctor?" because I don't have a Y chromosome. It gets old.
34
I should have said some patients.
50 years ago females were told to become nurses because the pay was too low for a man to support a family, and they would take jobs away from males!
Now there are more females in medical school than males.
50 years ago females were told to become nurses because the pay was too low for a man to support a family, and they would take jobs away from males!
Now there are more females in medical school than males.
3
Yet another cultural anxiety that permeates our age.
I can understand not wanting to be a nurse because bodily functions gross out my admittedly queasy stomach, though I suspect even I could get over that if a needed a job with a very good salary and professional status.
I just don't understand the gender labeling. Maybe that's because my mom worked all her life at an IBM Selectric and today, we're all at keyboards. My grandfather was a pastry chef; that's laborious but not coal mining. I grew up in a medium-size city (today, a big city) so I had lots of life experiences. I have two university degrees. I'm a so-called knowledge worker. I've lived all my adult life in big cities. I recognize all of these things tend to make gender issues dwindle away to nothing, which is what they should be.
But still...if I needed a job I wouldn't huff that's 'wimmens work.'
Good grief.
I can understand not wanting to be a nurse because bodily functions gross out my admittedly queasy stomach, though I suspect even I could get over that if a needed a job with a very good salary and professional status.
I just don't understand the gender labeling. Maybe that's because my mom worked all her life at an IBM Selectric and today, we're all at keyboards. My grandfather was a pastry chef; that's laborious but not coal mining. I grew up in a medium-size city (today, a big city) so I had lots of life experiences. I have two university degrees. I'm a so-called knowledge worker. I've lived all my adult life in big cities. I recognize all of these things tend to make gender issues dwindle away to nothing, which is what they should be.
But still...if I needed a job I wouldn't huff that's 'wimmens work.'
Good grief.
93
Ben Stiller did not get respect for playing a
male nurse. End of story.
male nurse. End of story.
11
His character did not get respect from his future father-in-law, a caricature of an old fuddy-duddy macho control freak who, you will recall, totally changed his tune as soon as he discovered that Greg had, indeed, been accepted to medical school but CHOSE to be a nurse. It was not the profession, but the impression that he was somehow not as good. So messed up. I would not take my impression of world view from Meet the Fokkers...
2
The character he did not get respect from was a caricature of a macho fuddy-duddy who completely changed his tune once he discovered that Ben's character got into medical school but chose to be a nurse, remember?
2
Reductive, NS
Have met quite a few male RNs who were retired firefighters or retired from the military - nursing was their second career
73
That's very interesting. So men who in the eyes of society have proven their masculinity through work universally considered heroic are secure and confident enough to be nurses. They know about teamwork and saving lives and I'm guessing they see nursing as heroic too, again with the potential to protect others and save lives, though in a more mundane, less dangerous way than the military or firefighting. What's that say about the guys who think nursing is beneath them?
12
It's the mandatory overtime that one does for call-offs and some work more than 8 hour shifts regularly. I know more nurses who quit for these reasons male and female than because of the pay.
6
if you are a salaried as opposed to an hourly employee, you work til the job is done. No matter what your profession. And if you don't like that idea, don't sign up. Simple as that.
15
Are you aware that most nurses aren't salaried, they are paid hourly?
And after 8 hectic, harried hours on your feet the thought of even one more is brutal. Staffing is kept to a minimum so the call ins causing the overtime are all to frequent as getting time off can be a battle. Nursing staff is calculated by patient ratio and care needs, never by how hard one patient can be at any given time so there rarely extra staff to fill in the overtime.
And after 8 hectic, harried hours on your feet the thought of even one more is brutal. Staffing is kept to a minimum so the call ins causing the overtime are all to frequent as getting time off can be a battle. Nursing staff is calculated by patient ratio and care needs, never by how hard one patient can be at any given time so there rarely extra staff to fill in the overtime.
10
Actually, I' ve been positions to employ RN s and Advance Practice Nurses for more than 25 years. they were all salaried employees. Yes I am aware that in some medical facilities that is not the case. The further up the clinical scale you go, the less likely you are to be an hourly worker. Depends entirely upon your own interest in developing your professional skills.
I graduated from U of Arizona with a nursing degree in 1977. Never had an issue with patients wanting a female versus me except maybe one or two. Few issues with other nurses, everyone usually got along quite well if you knew what you were doing. Nursing is hard work, you need to have a lot of common sense, empathy and problem solving ability. Nurses have to deal with a multitude of problems that no one else wants to worry about. I worked many years in ICU and medical surgical floors and loved it. You become very close to patients and I still remember many, some in their last minutes of their life. I always felt a special privileged to share that time with a family or patient. Eventually, as a veteran I went back to the military and joined the Navy. Over 30 percent of military nurses are men, I think because of the acceptance and team work they feel. I loved everyday (almost)! The military sent me for tons of training including a masters degree at UC San Francisco in cardiovascular nursing, all expenses paid. I was very lucky to be able to retire with the Navy. I am older now and work part time but not in a hospital, too much stress! I work because I want to, which is great! Nursing is a wonderful profession, never had a problem with my wife supporting my decision to be a nurse. It is not for everyone but I am glad I did it. I would highly recommend it for anyone.
341
You reminded me of what I saw when my FIL was dying at the VA hospital in south Brooklyn. I wasn't there much during his several month stay; my mother was dying in Ohio during those same months so I was only in NYC when my brother was spelling me out there. Many, many of the nurses were guys and not young kids. I'm pretty sure a lot were ex-medics. Most of the patients were older male WWII and Korean vets. The ease with which the nurses dealt with the crustiness of some of the patients without condescending was great.
9
It warms my heart to hear your story. Women do not have a monopoly on empathy, common sense, and problem solving. I am glad that you never had an issue with a patient not wanting a male nurse; I wish I had never had an issue with a patient not wanting a female doctor! Thank you very much for your service (from a daughter of a Navy corpsman.)
10
Is there a hospital nursing shortage? Or is hospital policy to hire only as many nurses as can cover the shifts if they work a lot of overtime?
When I was in hospital nursing as an RN it was definitely the policy to underhire and to expect everyone to work overtime on demand. They hired so close to the edge that I could get a job anywhere anytime if I accepted the salary. That was in the 70s and 80s. Health care has changed since then but nobody wants to fix the perpetual "nursing shortage".
If there were suddenly a surplus of nurses, it would only drive down their salaries, not increase the nursing presence in hospitals.
Who wants to be a nurse is a separate issue. Personal care of strangers is a tough job. Most women do not want to be nurses either. As a patient you do not want a nurse who doesn't take some small degree of personal satisfaction in her job.
As for home health aides, that is a dangerous minimum-wage job with irregular work. It is very difficult if not impossible to support oneself as home health aide above the poverty line.
When I was in hospital nursing as an RN it was definitely the policy to underhire and to expect everyone to work overtime on demand. They hired so close to the edge that I could get a job anywhere anytime if I accepted the salary. That was in the 70s and 80s. Health care has changed since then but nobody wants to fix the perpetual "nursing shortage".
If there were suddenly a surplus of nurses, it would only drive down their salaries, not increase the nursing presence in hospitals.
Who wants to be a nurse is a separate issue. Personal care of strangers is a tough job. Most women do not want to be nurses either. As a patient you do not want a nurse who doesn't take some small degree of personal satisfaction in her job.
As for home health aides, that is a dangerous minimum-wage job with irregular work. It is very difficult if not impossible to support oneself as home health aide above the poverty line.
99
Yes, I believe you are correct that the 'nursing shortage' applies to job vacancies, and not to overall numbers of nurses. Nurses quit or don't work because of the working conditions. It's also true that hospitals substitute non-licensed personnel to perform nursing duties wherever they can. It saves money, but diminishes the quality of care. Thank you for writing. (I'm a CRNA)
2
Nursing can be an unpleasant, stressful job -- though today, it pays quite well. The hours can be horrible, because nurses are need all day and all night. You are on your feet constantly, which isn't too good if you have any issues with your feet or legs, or if you are older. It's NOT a desk job (not most nursing jobs, anyhow).
Most FEMALE nurses burn out, and it is a brutally hard job to have if you are over 55, which is well short of when most people can retire. As the article notes, how'd you like to be a 60 year old, 120 lb, 5'1" nurse trying to turn or bathe a 300 lb patient?
Also, though there are certainly many jobs for nurses -- it is mostly due to attrition and burnout, not some huge expansion of jobs. Our local (very large, famous) hospital chain has had several nursing staff LAYOFFS.
On top of that: you are dealing with sick people in a hospital -- people who are sad, depressed, ill or dying. That is huge stressful. Not all women can or should be nurses -- I'd be an awful nurse. I envy the money and easy of finding jobs, but not the WORK.
You might as well be saying to low paid "pink collar" FEMALE workers -- "why don't you all become welders? or pipefitters? or plumbers and electricians?" Even in today's economy, those "typical male" jobs pay very well! many are unionized! yet women have NEVER gone into them in any great numbers.
Maybe we need to stop trying to force square pegs into round holes here. Men and women have differing interests and inclinations.
Most FEMALE nurses burn out, and it is a brutally hard job to have if you are over 55, which is well short of when most people can retire. As the article notes, how'd you like to be a 60 year old, 120 lb, 5'1" nurse trying to turn or bathe a 300 lb patient?
Also, though there are certainly many jobs for nurses -- it is mostly due to attrition and burnout, not some huge expansion of jobs. Our local (very large, famous) hospital chain has had several nursing staff LAYOFFS.
On top of that: you are dealing with sick people in a hospital -- people who are sad, depressed, ill or dying. That is huge stressful. Not all women can or should be nurses -- I'd be an awful nurse. I envy the money and easy of finding jobs, but not the WORK.
You might as well be saying to low paid "pink collar" FEMALE workers -- "why don't you all become welders? or pipefitters? or plumbers and electricians?" Even in today's economy, those "typical male" jobs pay very well! many are unionized! yet women have NEVER gone into them in any great numbers.
Maybe we need to stop trying to force square pegs into round holes here. Men and women have differing interests and inclinations.
2
"That may be, he said, because other sociologists have found that while work is important to both men’s and women’s identities, there remains a difference. “Work is at the core of what it means to be a man, in a way that work is not at the core of femininity,” he said."
We don't call what women have traditionally done "work," but it's work nonetheless. This refusal to acknowledge the value of "women's work" is an issue that has torn at my heart for years, especially when I hear full-time moms say "I don't work." Nursing, like all service jobs, requires taking care of another person - just like raising families, caring for elderly parents, and keeping a home running.
I find the sociologist's comment insulting. I guess, in his view, women's work is only named as such when women "labor" to "deliver" babies.
We don't call what women have traditionally done "work," but it's work nonetheless. This refusal to acknowledge the value of "women's work" is an issue that has torn at my heart for years, especially when I hear full-time moms say "I don't work." Nursing, like all service jobs, requires taking care of another person - just like raising families, caring for elderly parents, and keeping a home running.
I find the sociologist's comment insulting. I guess, in his view, women's work is only named as such when women "labor" to "deliver" babies.
185
Women have traditionally been valued for very human qualities, such as love, compassion and nurtureance. Men have been valued for things like physical strength and productivity, qualities that machines often possess. That is the point. Traditional gender roles are limiting for both men and women. What people often fail to see is that traditionally, women were valued for qualities that are fundamentally human, but men were not. This devaluing of men's caring and compassion continues to this day, even among people who consider themselves to be progressive regarding gender.
68
I was insulted, too, to be honest. My career was VERY central to who I was as a person, and even though I'm retired now, I still "work" at aspects of that profession because most people I know don't retire and then just go sit down somewhere. Until women's professional contributions are recognized as being equally as valuable as men's contributions, we'll still have guys like this making remarks like that.
43
The sociologist's comments are correct, though. There is a psychological difference between the sexes here. It isn't I think about work per se -- women have always worked in human society -- but about work outside the house, career.
5
I went to nursing school in my 40s to train for a second career. It was intellectually and physically demanding, and the first couple of years were sometimes frustrating. Being an RN has, however, proven to be a rewarding choice both financially and in terms of helping others. Gender is becoming less of an issue, especially if you're competent.
I just hope we have a health care system left to work in after Trump & Co. are done picking holes in the safety net.
I just hope we have a health care system left to work in after Trump & Co. are done picking holes in the safety net.
212
Nursing is not for everyone, male or female. Ditto for medicine. Gender should not be a factor at all. Anyone who thinks it is beneath them to practice nursing, or who do not recognize how difficult clinical professions are, or thinks bodily fluids and functions are too icky, should not be in a clinical profession.
Pity, because there are so many opportunities. And too bad for them, because nursing and other allied health professions are honorable, pay well, and come with good benefits packages.
Changing the name of the profession might help, but the fact that profession is known as nursing should not present a barrier to the right people who want to earn an honorable living.
Pity, because there are so many opportunities. And too bad for them, because nursing and other allied health professions are honorable, pay well, and come with good benefits packages.
Changing the name of the profession might help, but the fact that profession is known as nursing should not present a barrier to the right people who want to earn an honorable living.
120
The title, nurse, is honorable and doesn't need to be changed.
It is ironic that in these days of gender fluidity, the so-called male/female roles in the work place/professions are still deeply entrenched.
21
No problem with that Expat...as long as THEY ARE NOT ENTRENCHED LEGALLY OR IN SOCIETY....the worst thing is to prevent a male from legally or socially to become a nurse, the worst thing is to make it mandatory that 50% of all nurses are male.
Learn from Lincoln...or in your case London, William
Wilberforce who after a long slog ended the British slave trade/slavery..
Wilberforce was a hero of Lincoln...
Learn from Lincoln...or in your case London, William
Wilberforce who after a long slog ended the British slave trade/slavery..
Wilberforce was a hero of Lincoln...
2
Even the word "nurse" has the connotation of breast-feeding.
We should acknowledge that part of the compensation we receive from our jobs is the status attached to them.
Be honest - all else equal, who stands out as most attractive, status-wise in your mind:
1.) A male Nurse
2.) A male Physician's Assistant
3.) A male Physician
All three might be doing the vital work of caring for sick patients, but depending upon what they are called (a form of compensation), the job can go from very desirable for men to do to not very desirable at all.
Maybe it would be more realistic getting men to be Physician's Assistants rather than Nurses.
We should acknowledge that part of the compensation we receive from our jobs is the status attached to them.
Be honest - all else equal, who stands out as most attractive, status-wise in your mind:
1.) A male Nurse
2.) A male Physician's Assistant
3.) A male Physician
All three might be doing the vital work of caring for sick patients, but depending upon what they are called (a form of compensation), the job can go from very desirable for men to do to not very desirable at all.
Maybe it would be more realistic getting men to be Physician's Assistants rather than Nurses.
27
PAs are not nurses and vice versa, and you are using salary as the only criterion for a job's status/attractiveness/desirability.
Taking care of patients is a calling, not a job, and different roles call to different people; if you want to make big bucks in healthcare in 2017 you become an administrator, a device vendor, or an insurance executive. You could not pay me enough to do what I do if I were doing it only for the money.
Taking care of patients is a calling, not a job, and different roles call to different people; if you want to make big bucks in healthcare in 2017 you become an administrator, a device vendor, or an insurance executive. You could not pay me enough to do what I do if I were doing it only for the money.
12
Wrong answers to a set up question.
Who stands out as most attractive, status-wise in my mind?
A person who works, pays their bills on time, is intelligent enough to have a conversation with, is honest, and has other interests besides whining about their factory job or mining job not existing any longer.
I don't respect anybody, male or female, who needs a job and refuses to get one because they too good to 'do that job'. As for people who have a great title that is suppose to carry an outstanding amount of respect with it is Trump and I have absolutely ZERO respect for him and anyone who associates with him.
So if it is the title is what men are after thinking it is going to make people respect them, nope! It doesn't work that way. When a person wants respect they start out by earning it.
Who stands out as most attractive, status-wise in my mind?
A person who works, pays their bills on time, is intelligent enough to have a conversation with, is honest, and has other interests besides whining about their factory job or mining job not existing any longer.
I don't respect anybody, male or female, who needs a job and refuses to get one because they too good to 'do that job'. As for people who have a great title that is suppose to carry an outstanding amount of respect with it is Trump and I have absolutely ZERO respect for him and anyone who associates with him.
So if it is the title is what men are after thinking it is going to make people respect them, nope! It doesn't work that way. When a person wants respect they start out by earning it.
10
Physician assistants are overworked, underpaid, and have few of the privileges that physicians do. Nurses may not be physicians but, radtechs, medtechs, plebotomists, food service personnel, housekeepers, engineers, etc. are well below nurses on the totem pole. Nurses often receive hiring bonuses and can have schedules that include benefits like working for 36 hours in 3 days but being paid for 40 hours and receiving full time benefits.
7
During a recent hospitalization for very serious surgery, at least half of a friend's nurses, in the ICU and post-surgical unit, were young white males, all excellent--strong, friendly, and no-nonsense. I was very impressed.
137
I'm a woman and a Registered Nurse. While most nurses are women, the men who do become nurses have some advantages.
I started nursing school in 1980 with a class that had 54 people, 4 of whom were men. At the end of the first week, we were asked to elect class officers. For class President, 4 people submitted their names, and of the candidates, 1 was a man. He won. I vividly recall the woman sitting next to me commenting on the fact that we women had just elected a man. At graduation, only 33 of us were left in the class, 2 of whom were men. The first year President flunked out in that first year. He was not smart (nursing school is tough and demanding) but he was assertive. I also recall a nursing instructor recounting how one of the male students in the class gave a simple report with suggestions for the patient's care to a physician. The doctor gushed over the student's ideas and praised the student to the instructor. Later, when the teacher told us the story, she pointed out that no doctor had ever gave her the same type of feedback for a female nursing student. Weird!
Since school, I have come to know many male nurses who have been real assets to the profession.
I started nursing school in 1980 with a class that had 54 people, 4 of whom were men. At the end of the first week, we were asked to elect class officers. For class President, 4 people submitted their names, and of the candidates, 1 was a man. He won. I vividly recall the woman sitting next to me commenting on the fact that we women had just elected a man. At graduation, only 33 of us were left in the class, 2 of whom were men. The first year President flunked out in that first year. He was not smart (nursing school is tough and demanding) but he was assertive. I also recall a nursing instructor recounting how one of the male students in the class gave a simple report with suggestions for the patient's care to a physician. The doctor gushed over the student's ideas and praised the student to the instructor. Later, when the teacher told us the story, she pointed out that no doctor had ever gave her the same type of feedback for a female nursing student. Weird!
Since school, I have come to know many male nurses who have been real assets to the profession.
49
I know several nurses, and it is my understanding that while only about 10% of the profession is men...the male nurses get promoted faster and higher, usually to management positions over female nurses. They get higher pay, and better job offers. Many times they are requested by male patients, who don't want to undress or be bathed by female nurses.
On the other hand, when women go into mostly male professions -- construction or computer science -- they tend to get the bum's rush.
On the other hand, when women go into mostly male professions -- construction or computer science -- they tend to get the bum's rush.
7
Rebecca M,
Are you being sarcastic, or is that genuine admiration? I cannot tell from your text.
Are you being sarcastic, or is that genuine admiration? I cannot tell from your text.
I don't buy almost anything that Chira is selling here.
There's a major nursing shortage? My niece, whose uncle on the other side of her family is a gerontologist, desperately wanted to become a geriatric nurse. Her college, Towson State in MD had a strict requirement of better than a 3.0 GPA in first two years in order to be admitted to the nursing program. She came up just short. Too bad, one less nurse to address the shortage. Well, why such an unforgiving standard? Why not interview and select for compassion and commitment? She graduated and was good enough to be hired at the FDA.
As for males and work, the arc of my life contradicts everything Chira cites from sociologists in this article. I am a professional chef. I was working 80 hours a week (in five days), taking care of young children when I was off when we discovered my mother was not reliably taking her AIDS medications. We needed somebody to manage her care. My wife, a dentist running a union clinic, was making double my salary while working half of my hours. We could support a family and pay a mortgage on one salary, just not mine.
I was the one who stayed home, who did PTA meetings, who was elementary school "class mom" twice, who took my mother to doctor's appointments twice a month, who made sure her medications were ordered, filled, dispensed, and taken. It was weird to people 20 years ago, but never to us. It is a whole lot less weird now. Now I am primary caregiver for my mother-in-law.
There's a major nursing shortage? My niece, whose uncle on the other side of her family is a gerontologist, desperately wanted to become a geriatric nurse. Her college, Towson State in MD had a strict requirement of better than a 3.0 GPA in first two years in order to be admitted to the nursing program. She came up just short. Too bad, one less nurse to address the shortage. Well, why such an unforgiving standard? Why not interview and select for compassion and commitment? She graduated and was good enough to be hired at the FDA.
As for males and work, the arc of my life contradicts everything Chira cites from sociologists in this article. I am a professional chef. I was working 80 hours a week (in five days), taking care of young children when I was off when we discovered my mother was not reliably taking her AIDS medications. We needed somebody to manage her care. My wife, a dentist running a union clinic, was making double my salary while working half of my hours. We could support a family and pay a mortgage on one salary, just not mine.
I was the one who stayed home, who did PTA meetings, who was elementary school "class mom" twice, who took my mother to doctor's appointments twice a month, who made sure her medications were ordered, filled, dispensed, and taken. It was weird to people 20 years ago, but never to us. It is a whole lot less weird now. Now I am primary caregiver for my mother-in-law.
87
Passion and commitment are admirable qualities, but not enough to be a nurse these days. The high GPA requirement pays homage to the fact that nursing has evolved into a profession that requires a huge amount of detailed medical and psychosocial knowledge, critical thinking skills, the ability to use and conduct health research, mentor and educate others, build and work with teams, and evaluate care and services.... amongst other skills. Best of luck to you in the care of your mother-in-law.
44
Low GPAs often indicate a lack of effort, stamina, organizational skills, and/or ability. And nursing requires far more than the "compassion and commitment" that you say your niece has. It also requires intelligence and academic/scientific skills. This is why nursing schools want people who have demonstrated their intellectual abilities as indicated by a certain GPA. It's not enough for nurses just to feel "compassionate" toward patients! They need to know how to keep alive and administer medicine and care.
23
I graduated from nursing school in 2015, and I cannot imagine how someone with a 3.0 or less could handle it. I'm not trying to be mean, but I know what a fast-paced, unforgiving academic grinder it is. Compassion, passion, kindness--yes, of course, in spades, but anatomy/chemistry/pharmacology first. I am the last one standing between my patient and an incorrect medication, and the first one to notice the signs of shock or myocardial infarction or God knows what. It's a scary job.
32
Great article! For what it's worth, two perspectives: I retired as a geriatric social worker, and common wisdom was that the nurses - all women at my facility were the "tougher" professionals. My daughter is a hospitalist and sings the praises of the male nurses on her staff (more genial, more proactive). Maybe it's time to re-brand the nursing field, since general perception does not mesh with reality.
21
No, no, no. Does this hospitalist actually think they are 'more genial and proactive' because they are male? They are not. They are simply 'more genial and proactive' humans. Perhaps they are more so than the last nurse she worked with on the last shift.
Let's get it together, people. This kind of claptrap thinking got us to this article in the first place.
Let's get it together, people. This kind of claptrap thinking got us to this article in the first place.
2
I had major surgery several months ago and was hospitalized for about a week. The male RNs were mostly Filipino (some trained in the Philippines) and Vietnamese, and they were great. I don't know if the lure was economic (nursing pays very well in this area) or whether those cultures simply have a more expansive idea of appropriate careers for men. I also dealt with female RNs who were trained as physicians in their homelands (Bulgaria, Philippines, Bosnia)--they vastly preferred nursing to becoming certified as physicians here. Not only was that an onerous process, but they didn't want to deal with the business end of all that.
As a side note, Bay Area hospitals are like mini-United Nations--what would we do without the immigrants?
As a side note, Bay Area hospitals are like mini-United Nations--what would we do without the immigrants?
425
Furthermore, we would have a lot fewer CNA's for home care and nursing homes if there were fewer immigrants.
6
The male Vietnamese and Filipino nurses most likely trained as doctors in their home countries and came to the US as nurses. The US government has had a policy for years of attempting to undercut nurses' wages by encouraging foreign nurses to immigrate.
5
I was an RN at a Palm Springs, Ca hospital, and one day I had an Italian patient. Her daughter interpreted English. The doctor was from India, the nursing assistant from the Philippines, and I am an American. I looked around the room, and thought, "This is as it should be, all working together."
5
Men get scared away from the profession when they see the dysfunctional environment of hospitals as employers. The administration side spends no time getting to know employees or the stressors coming from having to please doctors, patients and families. An allegation of wrong-doing is treated as fact. Nursing boards give 5 years to individuals to bring complaints against nurses with no proof to verify the accusation required. Until an independent oversight ombudsman agency is created to record and mediate abuses from employers is enter the profession at your own peril.
17
There are lots of good male nurses in my mother's nursing home. But they are Black and Muslim. Seems having to be a "servant" doesn't bother them the way our entitled "betters" (sarc on) are affected.
Sure, we don't want to be servants. But some of us don't have a choice: secretaries, nurses, caregivers, etc. etc.
Sure, we don't want to be servants. But some of us don't have a choice: secretaries, nurses, caregivers, etc. etc.
23
Everyone is a servant. If you get paid, your job is to serve someone, and that goes for the CEO of a major corporation (who serves customers, clients and shareholders) every bit as much as my favorite bartender. I'm a lawyer -- I serve my clients. But I've also been a restaurant cook, worked in a coffee shop, worked in retail sales, and a host of other things over the course of my working life. In every job, I served someone. And there is nothing wrong with that -- indeed, I take it as a point of pride that I provide excellent service. That's why my clients refer me to others.
237
The point is that it is white men who refuse to be nurses for the reason that they are perceived that way, not women of all colors, not men of "color".
Statistics back this up.
Statistics back this up.
15
"It my be the Devil, or it may be the Lord
But you gotta serve somebody." -- Bob Dylan
But you gotta serve somebody." -- Bob Dylan
12
I graduated from nursing school in 1980, got a Master's as a Critical Care Clinical Specialist in 1987. Other than making me smarter, it didn't change the fact I'd be doing the same thing for a long time, without much recognition. So I reentered the military and had more variety and upward mobility. Then I got another Masters in Nurse Anesthesia, and had a great rewarding career with an independent practice n a military hospital until retirement recently. I'll say Nursing has a reputation as a "caring profession" and it should be, and is. But it's also grounded in all the biological sciences and physiology. My job has always been to make the right thing happen, and prevent the wrong thing from happening. And I have personally saved far more lives as a Critical Care Nurse, than I have as an independent anesthesia provider. And the majority of the time, it was because I was the most experienced person in the room, and some resident was trying to kill the patient. You can't just be assertive, you have to be right. So the whole male-female thing is a pain, but it should never result in a requirement for subservience.
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James SD, I am in awe of you. Thank you for your story and your life.
19
Thank you for your years of service!
10
The pool of people capable of becoming Nurse Anesthetists is minute. Nobody transitioning from the factory assembly line will be willing or able to do so, and that includes most RNs.
1
Complex issue, more than what this article spends time on. Nursing is a fine profession for anyone, but my opinion is that men need access to nursing school's, Andy a bit more openness in then medical culture.
3
It's all about losing their " masculine authority ". Other than military service, few men are interested in jobs that require them to follow orders, play nice with all others and put another first, in all endeavors. That, in a nutshell, is Nursing. Combined with the intensive schooling, on the job training, continuing education, rotating schedules, etc., it's demanding and stressful. In other words, too much trouble and work. Just like Teaching, considered Women's work. Easy, and anyone could do it. UNTIL
that " anyone" actually tries, and fails. Imagine that.
that " anyone" actually tries, and fails. Imagine that.
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That's beyond absurd. Most men have jobs that require them to follow orders and play nice with others.
As to demanding and stressful, yeah, well, try being a cop or a fireman or a plumber. And I would note that men do just fine teaching high school and college classes.
You just haven't thought this out.
As to demanding and stressful, yeah, well, try being a cop or a fireman or a plumber. And I would note that men do just fine teaching high school and college classes.
You just haven't thought this out.
18
No, it's not about losing "masculine authority". What a sexist thing to write. Almost every person who works is required to follow orders, play nice with others and put another person first. That , in a nutshell, is working for the public, whether it's in nursing or any other occupation that deals with the public. All business organizations are to some degree hierarchical, requiring employees to follow orders, play nice and work for the benefit of others; even the C-level employees are subservient to a board of directors. If you work with the public you need to put your customers (patients) first or you won't have any. I am an architect and I must also practice my profession for the benefit of the health, safety and welfare of the public. And who really considers teaching in all its facets just "women's work" anymore? Come on.
18
That sounds a whole lot different than my last job before I retired as the CFO/CAO of a boutique brokerage firm, a traditionally male job. NOT. I seldom agree with Mr. Hill but he is right on this one.
2