Wow! There's a mosque left to destroy in Mosul? That should be the story.
• ...with losses in lives and infrastructure piling up, soldiers and civilians kept in their minds an image of what victory would look like: capturing the historic, and symbolic, Al Nuri Grand Mosque and its distinctive leaning minaret.
"Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest."
~ ÉMILE ZOLA
(1840 – 1902)
French writer, the most important exemplar of the literary school of naturalism
"Civilization will not attain to its perfection until the last stone from the last church falls on the last priest."
~ ÉMILE ZOLA
(1840 – 1902)
French writer, the most important exemplar of the literary school of naturalism
2
The wanton destruction of the Palmyra ruins coincides with the similarly wanton destruction and/or removal of Civil War historical monuments in the U.S. Since both are iconoclastic acts, happening about the same time in different places, could there be a hidden connection?
2
While the harebrained policies courtesy of Cheney and Libby that got the US involved in Iraq in 2003 didn't help, this is the direct result of unrestrained religious extremism. This is Wahabisim and other Islamic Sunni extremist views fused with politics. They destroyed the mosque out of spite simply becasue it was sacred to the Shia, no other reason, but then religious extremism is usually shy on rationality and reason. ISIS was never shy of money, though. I wonder where they got it from?
8
Petrodollars and petroeuros, courtesy of our "allies", the Gulf Arabs. Time to call a spade a spade.
3
I have given up following the whole train wreck of Iraq and the ME. But, from reading this and looking at the video of the destruction I have two thoughts.
Why is ISIS destroying places of worship? That rings of cutting-of-your-nose-to- spite-your-face for Muslims. No? They now go to prayers in a neighbors house?
And the blame for all this lies at the feet of Uncle Sam. You really broke it.
Why is ISIS destroying places of worship? That rings of cutting-of-your-nose-to- spite-your-face for Muslims. No? They now go to prayers in a neighbors house?
And the blame for all this lies at the feet of Uncle Sam. You really broke it.
2
The real devil behind the destruction of Iraq, and the rise of ISIS is....DICK CHANEY! Only he himself fabricated the idea to attack Iraq. What a total unmitigated fool he was and is.
6
It was no coincidence that ISIS chose Mosul as its stronghold, because Nur al-Din Mahmoud Zangi - the builder of the Grand Mosque - was famous for mobilising and unifying Muslim forces to wage jihad against the Christian Crusaders. He was also revered by jihadists for his efforts to make Sunni Muslim orthodoxy prevail over Shiism.
No wonder why ISIS wanted to destroy the Al Nuri Mosque soon after it took over. Seen as idolatrous the leaning Al-Hadba minaret was covered with elaborate brickwork inspired by Iranian designs and topped with a small, white-plastered dome.
No wonder why ISIS wanted to destroy the Al Nuri Mosque soon after it took over. Seen as idolatrous the leaning Al-Hadba minaret was covered with elaborate brickwork inspired by Iranian designs and topped with a small, white-plastered dome.
3
ISIS - otherwise known this week as "Our Men in Al Nuri" - are doing the good work that the Clinton State Department, Obama, and now Trump required of them - i.e.: keeping Iraq destabilized according to our greater plan in the Middle East.
ISIS is workin' the desert - from Syria (our proxy warriors in trying to bring down Assad), Afghanistan (our proxy warriors making sure the battle goes on endlessly - 17 years and 14 trillion dollars down the hole later), to making sure that we keep sending more troops into battle guarding, as Donald Rumsfeld once opined, "Our oil under their sand."
If only the Times would drop some truthiness into our laps - detail, as many other sites have done, the oil and gas wars that we are REALLY fighting for.
Truth, Justice and the American Way, fighting terrorism (GWOT) - memes that sound really worthwhile and justified, are simple to understand and keep us waving Old Glory anywhere we feel threatened. But for oil and gas? How pedestrian…
And while you're at it, Times, lay the Putin Bad-Guy story on us once again. Why do we really want Putin's head on a platter? Hacking? Interference in elections?
If only it were true…but gas and oil pipelines? Thru Ukraine and Syria, Iran and up to Turkey? If he can get his pipelines established he will effectively cut our Saudi Arabia and Qatar as THE oil producers for the EU. And right behind him are the Chinese. And we can't have any of that happen. So wag the dog and tell us about the election. Ad nauseum.
ISIS is workin' the desert - from Syria (our proxy warriors in trying to bring down Assad), Afghanistan (our proxy warriors making sure the battle goes on endlessly - 17 years and 14 trillion dollars down the hole later), to making sure that we keep sending more troops into battle guarding, as Donald Rumsfeld once opined, "Our oil under their sand."
If only the Times would drop some truthiness into our laps - detail, as many other sites have done, the oil and gas wars that we are REALLY fighting for.
Truth, Justice and the American Way, fighting terrorism (GWOT) - memes that sound really worthwhile and justified, are simple to understand and keep us waving Old Glory anywhere we feel threatened. But for oil and gas? How pedestrian…
And while you're at it, Times, lay the Putin Bad-Guy story on us once again. Why do we really want Putin's head on a platter? Hacking? Interference in elections?
If only it were true…but gas and oil pipelines? Thru Ukraine and Syria, Iran and up to Turkey? If he can get his pipelines established he will effectively cut our Saudi Arabia and Qatar as THE oil producers for the EU. And right behind him are the Chinese. And we can't have any of that happen. So wag the dog and tell us about the election. Ad nauseum.
6
Is it not interesting that a group that says it aspires to take civilization back over a thousand years to a more pure state, sweeps away all that is Islamic!
Clearly only destruction, not resurrection is the legacy of such a group. The guide is before our eyes.
Clearly only destruction, not resurrection is the legacy of such a group. The guide is before our eyes.
2
You think isis is bad? Saudi Arabia,in the past has torn down the house of Mohammed in Mecca. ,sifted the ground around the kaaba stone in Mewcca and destroyed all the archaeological remains they found-and destroyed the grave of all Mohammed;s relatives. Hardline Wahabism condemns woeshipping the sites and bones as idolitrous.
2
@plex: well stated, although I'm not so optimistic that the trend is towards less violence . . . one hopes for enlightenment, but with the world's ever increasing population competing for vital resources which will only diminish due to the progressive effects of global warming and the sheer reality of greater consumption by more humans more contention for the basics will likely provoke more conflict, not less.
For all our self-lauded Higher Intelligence, mankind has yet to demonstrate the compelling necessity of global altruism for the sake of its own to survival.
For all our self-lauded Higher Intelligence, mankind has yet to demonstrate the compelling necessity of global altruism for the sake of its own to survival.
The Iraqi military has moved slowly and carefully, trying to minimize civilian casualties and damage to historical areas. So ISIS destroys whatever it can, like they did in Palmyra. American policy has always been to avoid damage to religious structures. No good deed goes unpunished.
1
If George W. Bush, with the support of Hillary Clinton, hadn't invaded Iraq in 2003, the Islamic State would not exist.
Them's the facts.
We Americans create terror around the world to give our leaders the excuse to keep our country in a permanent state of undeclared war for the benefits of Wall Street bankers and the corporations.
Them's the facts.
We Americans create terror around the world to give our leaders the excuse to keep our country in a permanent state of undeclared war for the benefits of Wall Street bankers and the corporations.
5
The issue of fake news is old in the Middle East, where trust in established news sources has long been as low as it is now becoming in the US and Europe, but regardless of who did this, it is the equivalent for Iraqis of what loosing a major cathedral would be for Europeans or a state capitol building would be for Americans. That we are not more familiar with these buildings in the first place is a demonstration of our limited view of world history and culture.
2
Yes, heavy irony that ISIS and the Crusaders end up in the same sentence. And wearying.
When will we ever learn?
When will we ever learn?
2
ISIS leaders know their days are numbered. Even they should know this scortched earth strategy will reinforce allied efforts to destroy them. But then, are they taking a page from the US strategy of confrontation (i.e., bullying) on North Korea, Russia and now Cuba again, rather than negotiation?
I wonder if anyone in the congregation of that mosque is questioning whether it was wise to resist the country they're all trying to emigrate to now that they've lived under the system their resistance was fighting for. Probably not, but still I wonder.
Whatever one's disagreements with the war's reasons and execution, it is still just the latest in a string of blown opportunities by the Arab world over centuries.
Whatever one's disagreements with the war's reasons and execution, it is still just the latest in a string of blown opportunities by the Arab world over centuries.
2
The fog of war. In the future, perhaps, we'll know who destroyed the famous mosque in Mosul. Right now, only lies and war propaganda.
1
Didn't the Christians go on destructive rampages against pagan landmarks for the same reasons given by ISIS. Watch 'Agora' (2009), and read up on Christian history. Two sides of the same coin.
1
If you go to the British Museum in London, check out the so-called Elgin Marbles. They are the remnants of the frieze that once ran around the ceiling of the Temple of Athena at the Acropolis in Athens. The frieze depicts scenes from Greek mythology. Many of the faces are broken or entirely missing. The damage has been attributed by historians to Christian zealots after the Romans occupied Greece and adopted Christianity as the state religion.
Sad that another piece of history is destroyed that can never be replaced. Guess it makes ISIS feel powerful to do so. But to destroy is easy. To create hard.
They have created nothing except hate and tragedy in the name of religion.
They have created nothing except hate and tragedy in the name of religion.
2
I just love all of these " it's America's fault" comments from the knee jerk Blame America First crowd. Focus for a minute sheeple--this time ISIS is the bad guy in this tragic melodrama. Want to know what's really ironic? The same people who claim to disdain religion so much are the ones who are mourning the loss of this historical mosque the most.
1
Military uses of religious sites by ISIS should be recognized as sacrilege by those who care about their religion!
1
Another casualty of America's war on the middle east.
1
ISIS has a penchant for almost cartoonish evil. They do the most despicable monstrous things and then they lie about it. Remember how they "protected" religious minorities by enslaving them and putting them into rape camps?
People saw ISIS fighters carrying explosives into the mosque. They were seen rigging the place to blow. There's video footage of the explosion and there's ample forensic evidence to show what happened.
ISIS lies are crude and obvious, people only believe them because they choose to do so.
People saw ISIS fighters carrying explosives into the mosque. They were seen rigging the place to blow. There's video footage of the explosion and there's ample forensic evidence to show what happened.
ISIS lies are crude and obvious, people only believe them because they choose to do so.
1
I, and 40,000,000 Syeds (=the family of Mohammed) with me today are shedding no tears over the disappearance of this symbol of anti-Mohammedan, anti-Koranic Kaliphate.
Between 2 Abubakrs (the first Kaliph and the last) the Kaliphate was a drag on civilization curtailing trade and human progress for 1,400 years no less.
A 1000 years after Socrates was done in by the combined forces of big business and banker Demos, Mohammed trounced his Meccan Demos with superior strategy and alliance with Christians, ushering a new era of peace, justice, women's emancipation, free entreprise, and free trade.
But upon his death the neocon moneyed Demos hijacked and morphed his progressive revolution into a Kaliphate of gore, glory, conquest, and colonialism, picking needless fight with Christians, curtailing East-West Silk Road free trade with Tariffs (Arabic word of Kaliphate origin), finally blocking it altogether thus starving Christian Europe into half, and forcing them to find new routes to Asia and new lands. The rest is history.
Let the peace loving people of the earth wishing for Globalization and Free Trade join hands to bury the Kaliphate and destroy its symbols forever. Who cares who destroyed this mosque - we see Divine hand in it. Let us hope the Mosque of Umar, the second Kaliph, is next, inshallah (god willing).
Between 2 Abubakrs (the first Kaliph and the last) the Kaliphate was a drag on civilization curtailing trade and human progress for 1,400 years no less.
A 1000 years after Socrates was done in by the combined forces of big business and banker Demos, Mohammed trounced his Meccan Demos with superior strategy and alliance with Christians, ushering a new era of peace, justice, women's emancipation, free entreprise, and free trade.
But upon his death the neocon moneyed Demos hijacked and morphed his progressive revolution into a Kaliphate of gore, glory, conquest, and colonialism, picking needless fight with Christians, curtailing East-West Silk Road free trade with Tariffs (Arabic word of Kaliphate origin), finally blocking it altogether thus starving Christian Europe into half, and forcing them to find new routes to Asia and new lands. The rest is history.
Let the peace loving people of the earth wishing for Globalization and Free Trade join hands to bury the Kaliphate and destroy its symbols forever. Who cares who destroyed this mosque - we see Divine hand in it. Let us hope the Mosque of Umar, the second Kaliph, is next, inshallah (god willing).
2
This demonic act of destroying a historic mosque in a Sunni part of Iraq should tell Westerners who love to equate ISIS with Islam the truth about this evil organization. They are the farthest thing from anything Islamic.
2
According to the Quran, "Do not fight against them near the Holy Mosque unless they fight against you", so to me, these are not true Muslims at all. ISIS is a bunch of insane murderers who paint a picture of Islam that is simply not true to the Quran. They have been the best propaganda tool of the U.S., however, in keeping people terrified of Muslims. What a shame!
Cannibals.
2
As with Palmyra, anything that ISIS can't have, they trash. Prime Minister al-Abadi had it right, the "official announcement of their defeat." Now the rest of the Muslim world needs to be singing from the same script: "ISIS is evil" !
Insanity and religion are conditions peculiar to humans.
1
The ultimate responsibility for the destruction of the mosque and minaret lies with George W. Bush and the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. The misguided response to 9/11, and the demonization of former US ally Saddam Hussein has led us directly to this horror and the very existence of Isis. It couldn't be clearer.
A few years back I read this article about the Israelis planning on dropping a bomb on the Al Aqsa mosque complex . Since this was the Muslim tie to the city , you destroy that tie and you destroy the relationship.
Of course it never came to fruition but you cant help but wonder, the scale of the damage evidenced in the picture doesnt look like the work of a localized bomb, rather one that was dropped from above.
Also a very strange thought occurred to me, the Middle East might have just entered a state of perpetual war.
Consider the war in Yemen where the entire US powered Saudi Arabian army has been unable to dislodge the Houthi.
ISIS bruised and battered with no fresh recruits is still standing and though will lose the Iraqi victory will be Pyrrhic.
The Government of Libya is just a town in the NE of the country, the rest is lawless.
Of course it never came to fruition but you cant help but wonder, the scale of the damage evidenced in the picture doesnt look like the work of a localized bomb, rather one that was dropped from above.
Also a very strange thought occurred to me, the Middle East might have just entered a state of perpetual war.
Consider the war in Yemen where the entire US powered Saudi Arabian army has been unable to dislodge the Houthi.
ISIS bruised and battered with no fresh recruits is still standing and though will lose the Iraqi victory will be Pyrrhic.
The Government of Libya is just a town in the NE of the country, the rest is lawless.
Bob it was BUSH that signed the agreement to leave. Bush. I guess faux doesn't report that.
Seems like it's only matter of time before they find a way to blow up the Pyramids
1
ISIS may have blown up the mosque, but it was the interference of foreign countries - especially the United States - that created a power vacuum for them to grow in the first place. Shame on Bush, shame on Obama, shame on everyone who's had a hand in creating this fourteen year old mess.
Regarding a lot of these Commenter Pundit remarks: What is happening in the world today cannot be traced back to any particular point in time or any particular decision taken by any one person. Why? Because a lot has happened in the intervening years and a lot would have happened had the opposite decision been taken back then. Everything changes. Iraq would not be standing frozen in time all these years, for example. Nothing is a "product" of any one decision and nothing "arose" due to any one action. Wow, the world is so much more nuanced than that. Everything changes over time and the entire planet is interconnected. No one can tell the future and no one can tell the past either, as in "would have happened if not for . . ."
I would like to think that children in elementary school have more reasoning ability than all this. Maybe we need to add a basic logic course to the Three R's?
I would like to think that children in elementary school have more reasoning ability than all this. Maybe we need to add a basic logic course to the Three R's?
2
ISIS is funded by the U.S., Saudi Arabia and their allies. It's a product of U.S. intelligence and arose from the invasion of Iraq.
15
Workerbee, what's your evidence for this claim? It's oft repeated, but never evidenced. It seems completely far-fetched to an outsider. I accept that US intelligence has funded many terrorist/freedom fighting organisations over the years (think Taliban, Contras etc), but it's never gone to war with any of the groups it has funded as it has actively done against ISIS. It would make little sense to do so. Evidence, please?
Not likely as we are helping defeat them.
The destruction of thousands of old manuscripts seems more tragic to me. That is our history -- the history of humanity -- wantonly and deliberately destroyed.
22
"The mosque was built by Nur al-Din Mahmoud Zangi, a ruler who in the 12th century unified Arab forces against crusaders from Europe."
Is anyone getting the longer picture here? Foreign invaders, local resistance, war, destruction -- spanning centuries.
If history proves one thing, it is that you can't fight fire with fire. That said, the world, as a whole, is actually doing pretty well over the past century at bringing levels of conflict down:
https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace/#the-20th-century
Which is why I'm so disheartened by the neo-con rhetoric that is all too prevalent in the US (Republican primaries, anyone?)
Obama stood strong against knee-jerk, militaristic action and antagonistic rhetoric, and was criticized, in my opinion, by too many for it. He boldly insisted on diplomacy with Iraq and Cuba, which he knew would be unpopular with many of the most antagonistic at home, and was deliberately slow to jump into the Syrian situation and other fighting that arose out of the "Arab Spring." That is a different kind of strength, and one that this world needs desperately - a world that is now so much more interdependent due to travel, trade, and communications advances over the last century - and that, I believe, will continue to find peaceful solutions in spite of setbacks by those who show too much zeal for territory, national identity, personal pride, or religion (as was the case with the Crusaders and ISIS alike).
Is anyone getting the longer picture here? Foreign invaders, local resistance, war, destruction -- spanning centuries.
If history proves one thing, it is that you can't fight fire with fire. That said, the world, as a whole, is actually doing pretty well over the past century at bringing levels of conflict down:
https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace/#the-20th-century
Which is why I'm so disheartened by the neo-con rhetoric that is all too prevalent in the US (Republican primaries, anyone?)
Obama stood strong against knee-jerk, militaristic action and antagonistic rhetoric, and was criticized, in my opinion, by too many for it. He boldly insisted on diplomacy with Iraq and Cuba, which he knew would be unpopular with many of the most antagonistic at home, and was deliberately slow to jump into the Syrian situation and other fighting that arose out of the "Arab Spring." That is a different kind of strength, and one that this world needs desperately - a world that is now so much more interdependent due to travel, trade, and communications advances over the last century - and that, I believe, will continue to find peaceful solutions in spite of setbacks by those who show too much zeal for territory, national identity, personal pride, or religion (as was the case with the Crusaders and ISIS alike).
32
Obama was the one who threatened a militaristic response to Assad's use of poison gas. Then he turned tail and slunk off.
Obama unfortunately left too fast which left a vacuum, along with Iraqi government corruption, which was filled by ISIS.
He turned tail and slunk off because it wasn't Assad who used the poison gas. You should be grateful he didn't make a mistake. http://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-crisis-un-idUSBRE94409Z20130505
"...Iraq said ISIS did it, but the militants blamed a U.S. airstrike."
Of course trust the "militants" they will always tell the truth!
Of course trust the "militants" they will always tell the truth!
6
If it was a US airstrike it would be a huge crater with a lot more damage.
RCS - I know that, obviously my sarcasm wasn't transparent enough. Yet at this time 6 "patriots" have agreed with my comment to trust the militants and not the United States. Sad!
If the city was leveled and the mosque survived people would be thanking god. Now that the mosque is destroyed who gets the blame?
12
ISIS final suicide bomb in Mosul, a tantrum of cowardice by opportunistic thugs who've lost their nihilistic dream of enslaving civilization in their armageddon caliphate.
22
Both sides kill and destroy all the time. And blame the other side. What's new?
6
Considering all the bombs we've dropped on the place, you'd think by now we'd be able to recognize the footprint those bombs leave. Judging by the fact the it and the surrounding area is laid bare, would not seem to indicate the work of guys in pickups armed with RPG's. There aren't that many with bombs that big that could take out the whole block plus the roofs off of the buildings across the street. Maybe it's all just a case of sloppy carpentry on their part. That will teach them to take shortcuts.
2
When ISIS captured half of Iraq and Syria they obtained gigantic stores of explosives that they have barely been able to put a dent in. ISIS booby traps buildings as a routine tactic that they have used throughout their retreat. ISIS have had years to plant explosives all over the Mosque to bring it down. You can bring down a huge building with far less explosives than fit in a suitcase if you put the explosives directly on to the supporting structures. But ISIS likes a big bang and presumably also wanted to kill Iraqi forces that were entering the Mosque at the time so they used a lot. If you have any doubt, take a look at the videos of their suicide explosive vehicles that they employ multiple times each day and are responsible for most Iraqi casualties. They have exploded almost 1000 of just that particular weapon.
10
It said they stuffed the building. Ours typically dropped from planes leave craters.
1
It's a shame it's gone and I'll never get to see it but let's have some perspective people. I'll save my tears for the Kurds gased to death and the Iraqis murdered and tortured by Saddam Hussein... the thousands of
Muslims, Yazidis and Christians raped, displaced, murdered and terrorized by these Daesh lunatics who have been holding the poor people of Mosul hostage for far too long. Level the place... save the families! These crazies have been cultivated since childhood long before we ever entered Iraq.
Muslims, Yazidis and Christians raped, displaced, murdered and terrorized by these Daesh lunatics who have been holding the poor people of Mosul hostage for far too long. Level the place... save the families! These crazies have been cultivated since childhood long before we ever entered Iraq.
11
This fragile leaning minaret was left standing throughout three years of war and was untouched until the Iraqi forces were a few meters away and about to take it. How logical would it be for the Iraqi forces, or their allies, to destroy this landmark that they were about to reclaim? Even if they did not care for it, the publicity coup would be valuable. In contrast, ISIS has boasted about the numerous tombs and ancient sites that it has pillaged and blown up. You decide.
14
I don't know who blew up the mosque, but the minaret is leaning by design not because of fragility.
It is just laughable to think the US or Iraqi government would blow up this mosque that they have left totally intact during a raging war in the city for a year, and to do so just minutes before it was to be taken over by Iraqi forces. There would have been no greater publicity coup for the US and Iraqi governments to denounce ISIS from the very pulpit where the Caliphate was announced. And this would be to assume that the US and Iraqis did not care that this was one of the icons of Iraq that has survived for 800 years, during which it has been under tens of different Sunni and Shia governments and exchanged in warfare multiple times. Only now is it destroyed. Who among the combatants has exulted at their destruction of Turkish and Shia tombs, and of ancient cities? Only one combatant: ISIS, who have self-publicized their brutality, even claiming attacks they did not make, and now denying one that they surely did, to block the victor from a precious symbol.
30
Not to mention, if the U.S. had been uninterested in saving this mosque, it would have probably been demolished back in 2003 during the shock and awe, 3,000 plus missile barrage. Mosul was fought over for awhile and if the U.S. had ever wanted this mosque flattened, it would have been by now.
Some very cavalier All-American comments today on this NYT story. "Just one more piece of concrete, who cares?", etc. Have we lost all empathy for the cultures we are destroying "for untidy freedoms" as one writer put it. According to reports, the military has changed tactics from those used earlier in the campaign, from carefully targeting the densely populated neighborhoods, to indiscriminate leveling. ISIS typically is happy to take credit for it's atrocities, so I'm betting on the coalition forces for this one. Imagine the reaction if a foreign power bombed popular U.S. icons (like Six Flags, Disneyland, or Dollywood) ostensibly to "preserve our freedoms."
11
Strangely enough, I kind of feel like it was coalition forces this time. However, I think time will tell- this kind of thing cannot be hidden for long if it was.
1
No. ISIS did it, out of spite. It's illogical for either Iraq or America to have done this. The Iraq military has been carefully creeping up toward this location, which is the very center of the old city of Mosul. Prime Minister al-Abadi is really trying to do a good job, under very difficult circumstances. We have to give him our support. He's not al-Maliki!
1
George W. Bu/sh declared war on March 19, 2003. Anyone who prefers to believe that the destruction of the Al Nuri Mosque does not have its roots in the Bush war should be prepared to present a carefully developed argument.
I do not think such an argument can be presented.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
I do not think such an argument can be presented.
Only-NeverInSweden.blogspot.com
Dual citizen US SE
24
That is an easy one. ISIS is an offshoot of Al Qaeda, which existed before the invasion of Iraq. The leadership of ISIS are made up primarily of Baathists, who existed before the invasion. The division of Sunnis in the region into multiple states where they were the minority, implemented by the French and British after World War 1, led to a logical desire to consolidate into one state that is almost identical to the borders of ISIS at its height. The recent US invasion did not help, and was mindbogglingly stupid, but many other very negative forces had to be resident locally as well as illogical imperial borders for this to happen.
9
Bush created ISIS and virtually all the havoc in the region by needlessly toppling Saddam who had zero to do with 9/11.
20
"Destruction of the Great Satan" was plotted by Azzam, al Zawahiri as well as Bin Laden, not to mention Qutb and the founders of the Muslim Brotherhood. What's truly ironic is that this was the goal of al Qaeda when we assisted them fighting the Soviets. Well before Bush.
1
Though not so likely, if the US were to blame for this, pray how would we find out?
3
The US military has investigated claims of bombings and has admitted to killing over 200 in one bombing, saying that the building had been monitored but civilians had been herded in and explosives planted so that the US bomb, designed to blow up on top of the building to eliminate snipers, ignited the whole building. Which other military admits to that? This is one of many such admissions. I believe that 99% of the US military are decent people trying to their job and minimize errors that lead to destruction of antiquities and civilians. It is absurd to think that every one of them is willing to keep some terrible secret about our nefarious plan to destroy mosques and kill children. But we run some risk of doing so by accident when we go to war. I think our military strategy is terrible in the Middle East but It is the politicians that must take full responsibility for that decision.
10
Dnain is absolutely right. US forces had absolutely nothing to gain - and potentially a lot to lose - in bombing the mosque. For ISIS, the logic was to prevent the mosque falling into Iraqi forces hands and thereby reduce the symbolism of its claims to a caliphate.
And one last point; this is not the first time these deviant Muslims have destroyed an historically significant mosque in Iraq for political and/or military gain. In 2006, Al Qa'eda in Iraq - the forerunner of ISIL - destroyed the Shi'ite Al-Askari mosque in Samarra. This was the trigger that plunged the country into a bitter civil that cost tens of thousands of innocent lives.
We can only hope that this latest atrocity by ISIL has the opposite effect - to permanently unite the people of Iraq and to destroy this scourge on humanity.
And one last point; this is not the first time these deviant Muslims have destroyed an historically significant mosque in Iraq for political and/or military gain. In 2006, Al Qa'eda in Iraq - the forerunner of ISIL - destroyed the Shi'ite Al-Askari mosque in Samarra. This was the trigger that plunged the country into a bitter civil that cost tens of thousands of innocent lives.
We can only hope that this latest atrocity by ISIL has the opposite effect - to permanently unite the people of Iraq and to destroy this scourge on humanity.
Stuff happens, and it's untidy, and freedom is untidy...
2
But, like culture and history, worth defending and worth mourning.
9
I'm glad the consensus is that the jihadists destroyed this historic mosque, and really even if it was an American airstrike, the only reason the airstrike occurred was the jihadists.
I'm not too concerned about the loss though. There is no way I'll ever be able to travel to Iraq safely in the 40 years or so left to me, so I would never have seen it. And I don't think the history of Islam, or Christianity or Judaeism, is necessary to maintain. Massive mistake in human history that has caused more insane war and bloodshed than any other factor. The sooner we're done with the nonsense of organized monotheism, the better.
I'm not too concerned about the loss though. There is no way I'll ever be able to travel to Iraq safely in the 40 years or so left to me, so I would never have seen it. And I don't think the history of Islam, or Christianity or Judaeism, is necessary to maintain. Massive mistake in human history that has caused more insane war and bloodshed than any other factor. The sooner we're done with the nonsense of organized monotheism, the better.
17
...also I often get overly callous, but harsh as this comment is, I'm comparing it to the casualties in Iraq/Syria, at close to a million now I'm sure, and one building is just not as important as the constant insane bloodshed, to me.
Guess Isis has figured out how to bend the Truth like Trump. The dog ate my home work approach to causality seems to be getting more popular.
7
Methinks that IS through their actions so far has brought upon themselves a credibility problem. If US forces happened to blast the mosuq, shame upon the amateurs who couldn't leave the place alone/aim better. But all in all, the silly IS boys have no way of making me believe them, and as far as I'm concerned, they themselves are to blame. If possibly not for blowing the place up directly, then for starting the entire conflict ultimately resulting in the blowing up of the place. When will the poor boys ever grow up? Get. A. Life.
2
How amazing it is to hear the American military and/or ISIS assigning blame for just one more symbol of concrete blasted into oblivion. Would any US assign blame to the forces of 2003 who began a war in Iraq based on lies? Think about it. With no US invasion and "shock and awe" bombing there would have been no Iraq War based on lies, no Al Qaeda in Iraq or the Arabian peninsula, no civil war in Iraq, and surely no ISIS there or anywhere for that matter. In truth the responsibility for the mammoth violence that has descended on that part of the world from Syria, Egypt, and Libya to the Sudan and Mohamed Bouazizi the Tunisian street vendor who set himself on fire on 17 December 2010 prompting the massive revolutions all over the Middle East -- one state following another falling like a game of dominoes. Sadly the fault of ALL of this carnage, I believe, can be traced to the obliteration of Iraq by US forces convincing yet again a gullible American public that Sadam Hussein had WMD when he had none and even that he may have been responsible for 9/11 when he was not. People get angry when one bombs them for nothing. The fault, as Shakespeare said in "Julius Caesar," is not in the stars but in ourselves!
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Shias and Sunnis where already at war, Al Qaeda and the likes of ISIS were already active, though not in Iraq. Obviously the u.s. invasion was based on lies, misguided and made things worse, but attributing ISIS and the civil war to it seems to be a stretch. I don't get why some one would post in a way that attributes all the blame to just one party. Why not taking a middle ground?
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@Natalie: superbly stated.
This should be a "Times Pick".
This should be a "Times Pick".
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@Natalie: I do not know enough to confirm that the sequence of events as you describe them is historic fact, but if what you say is true, it is indeed a tragedy with far reaching consequences that continue to poison and destroy humanity. How to remedy the situation...
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Reminiscent of what happened to the Parthenon!
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In what way? The Ottomans stored munitions in the Parthenon and the Venetians lobbed cannon balls into it, blowing off the roof, among other things.
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It probably won't be hard to figure out if the mosque was destroyed by ISIS munitions or U.S. ordnance, provided American investigators have access to the site, and aren't prevented from doing a proper study. However, it may be difficult to convince everyone to believe in their findings, no matter which way they turn out.
Perhaps the best way to resolve the situation is to make a public statement: that we're aware of the claim that the mosque was destroyed by an American airstrike, and attempting to determine if that was in fact the case, or whether it can be ruled out; and that either way, the United States will gladly assist the Iraqi authorities in rebuilding it. That assurance might do a lot more toward establishing trust with the Iraqi people than arguing ad nauseam about who was at fault.
I can imagine one possible objection to such a statement, but I don't think the establishment clause would prevent us from helping the Iraqis to rebuild a historic structure destroyed during the battle to retake Mosul, simply because the building's purpose was religious. If we did destroy it, then it's appropriate to help rebuild it; but even if we didn't, we participated in the battle, and rebuilding destroyed cultural heritage is simply the right thing to do.
Perhaps the best way to resolve the situation is to make a public statement: that we're aware of the claim that the mosque was destroyed by an American airstrike, and attempting to determine if that was in fact the case, or whether it can be ruled out; and that either way, the United States will gladly assist the Iraqi authorities in rebuilding it. That assurance might do a lot more toward establishing trust with the Iraqi people than arguing ad nauseam about who was at fault.
I can imagine one possible objection to such a statement, but I don't think the establishment clause would prevent us from helping the Iraqis to rebuild a historic structure destroyed during the battle to retake Mosul, simply because the building's purpose was religious. If we did destroy it, then it's appropriate to help rebuild it; but even if we didn't, we participated in the battle, and rebuilding destroyed cultural heritage is simply the right thing to do.
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that's the thing about cultural heritage though... this mosque was centuries old, so rebuilding it to what it was is out of the question. only a modern replica is possible... and that is a far cry from the original.
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Earlier in the battle for Mosul U.S. firepower bombed a large building where over 100 civilians (families) were living. The building was leveled and over 100 bodies recovered. Our military balked at first, but after an investigation which took at least a week, they admitted their error. I believe there were videos of the attack. If culpable our military will likely admit to the deed. Muslims care a great deal about their holy sites. The average Muslim has a deep belief in a peaceful God.
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"The destruction of the mosque and minaret — which are pictured on Iraq’s 10,000 dinar bank note — is another blow to the city’s rich cultural heritage and its plethora of ancient sites that have been damaged or destroyed during three years of Islamic State rule."
Shouldn't that read "...during fourteen years of war that began when the Unites States invaded Iraq under completely false pretenses and then bungled the aftermath so badly that terrorist groups began roaming freely throughout the country"?
Is the Times now pretending that the war in Iraq began in 2014?
Shouldn't that read "...during fourteen years of war that began when the Unites States invaded Iraq under completely false pretenses and then bungled the aftermath so badly that terrorist groups began roaming freely throughout the country"?
Is the Times now pretending that the war in Iraq began in 2014?
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My unchecked guess is probably more damage was done to infrastructure and military targets during the iraq war. Before Isis invaded iraq it probably was not that common for holy sites to be used for military purposes, so less damage was dealt to them.
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The US invasion and occupation of Iraq took very little toll on ancient or archaeological sites. The primary cultural loss resulted from the failure of the US forces to protect the Baghdad museum from looting. (The US military and FBI spent years tracking down lost pieces from that disaster. They are still at it.). ISIL has made the erasure of history through the destruction of buildings and artifacts a centerpiece of their ideological program. Astronomically more loss has occurred since and as a result of ISIL's invasion com Syria then during the US invasion and occupation.
So, no the Times didn't forget the US invasion, it just isn't nearly the proximate cause of the ongoing nightmare of cultural loss.
So, no the Times didn't forget the US invasion, it just isn't nearly the proximate cause of the ongoing nightmare of cultural loss.
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No, but it didn't begin in 2003 either. Ask any Kurd who was gassed in the north, or any of the thousands of Shiites in the south whose loved ones were buried alive in mass graves by the Saddam regime.
I hope the United States blew up the mosque as a message that this Holy War will not be tolerated.
If Islam wants to condone Jihad and Sharia law in Western countries, the United States should blow up every Mosque in these Islamic countries. When they start seeing the United States blowing up their Mosques, they might actually start condemning their own terrorists. The Muslim leaders might actually start arresting the terrorists and funding sources of ISIS instead of turning a blind eye to these evil deeds if they start seeing their Mosques disappearing.
We are getting a song and dance from the so-called peaceful Muslims who don't actually do the terrorist acts, but silently condone these acts and refuse to turn their fellow Muslims into the authorities.
There is no longer any grey area. These Muslim countries need to stand up and be counted. Either they are with us, or against us.
There are more Americans who believe this is the right course of action than you have any idea.
If Islam wants to condone Jihad and Sharia law in Western countries, the United States should blow up every Mosque in these Islamic countries. When they start seeing the United States blowing up their Mosques, they might actually start condemning their own terrorists. The Muslim leaders might actually start arresting the terrorists and funding sources of ISIS instead of turning a blind eye to these evil deeds if they start seeing their Mosques disappearing.
We are getting a song and dance from the so-called peaceful Muslims who don't actually do the terrorist acts, but silently condone these acts and refuse to turn their fellow Muslims into the authorities.
There is no longer any grey area. These Muslim countries need to stand up and be counted. Either they are with us, or against us.
There are more Americans who believe this is the right course of action than you have any idea.
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If the situation were reversed and these Islamic countries sent warplanes to bomb our churches, how effective would that be in getting Americans to line up in support of Islamic values?
Not very! Instead you'd get a whole lot of angry Americans wanting to take up arms to protect their existing churches or to take revenge for the ones that had been destroyed.
So why on earth do you think that bombing their mosques would cause ordinary Muslims to flock to our banner?
Set aside for a moment any concern for our own morality and principles. The US bombing mosques would also be a wretchedly bad strategy.
Not very! Instead you'd get a whole lot of angry Americans wanting to take up arms to protect their existing churches or to take revenge for the ones that had been destroyed.
So why on earth do you think that bombing their mosques would cause ordinary Muslims to flock to our banner?
Set aside for a moment any concern for our own morality and principles. The US bombing mosques would also be a wretchedly bad strategy.
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"There are more Americans who believe this is the right course of action than you have any idea." I don't doubt that you're correct. The world, and by extension the United States, is full to the brim with people who erroneously believe that childish, emotional actions and reactions will accomplish worthwhile long-term goals.
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We (Americans) might have blown it up. But does it really matter? It seems that there is much more fighting than praying going on, so who needs an empty church building, no matter what it's called.
I am going to write something that surprises even me: it doesn't matter who destroyed the mosque. ISIS needs to be pushed out of Mosul and then all of Iraq to reduce its land base and thus its ability to due harm. This will cause immense damage because ISIS follows a scorched earth policy. In other words pushing them out will lead to damage on every conceivable level. Unfortunately, no alternative exists.
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Pure nihilism.
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Don't you just wish the world could be put on pause for a few days, just to get a break from all this horror?
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So so sad. whomever is responsible. What hath war wrought?
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We owe this to Obama and his lead from behind decision not to leave a residual force in Iraq. Shameful. I guess the JV knows how to blow up things. Syria is another mess Obama and genius Ben Rhodes mismanaged. History will not look kindly on the ill-equipped community organizer.
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Nor will history look kindly on the ill-equipped Texas governor and his neocon geniuses who broke Iraq in the first place. Shameful indeed, Bob.
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I guess you forget who signed the withdrawal agreement. But you'd probably blame Obama for his ninja mind-bending ways that forced Dubya's hand...
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At the time we were following the agreement to leave made with the iraqi government under bush. It was not apparently known that militians currently acting in the serian civil war would invade iraq or that that iraqi government would not be prepared to defend so much of their country.
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With a pathological liar as Commander in Chief of the U.S. military, it’s no longer possible to take any U.S. statements on face value. For the great men and women of the U.S. military, this is a very sad time.
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True. Trump bailed on the United States in January to play gol and eat cake.
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ISIS loves to take credit for their work usually, but you never know with them. I think it's interesting the Times notes how ancient sites have been ruined under Islamic State rule, when far more damage was done by the US in the years prior... but you know, U-S-A, or whatever
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Because that is not accurate. I opposed the invasion, but facts are facts, the US absolutely DID NOT do more-or anywhere near-the damage to ancient sites and artifacts that IS has done.
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Few things are sadder than the loss of a beloved house of worship, no matter which religion or denomination.
How dare some folks suggest we should believe the ISIS propaganda that we destroyed this mosque, rather than believing our own propaganda that ISIS did the deed. The fact is, the fall of this iconic 'landmark' will serve as a significant metaphor, and so also will be its future rebuilding.
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Isis does often make false statements about who is responsible for destruction. Many terror attacks that have nothing to do with isis are clamed by isis.
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You cannot rebuild historical monuments. Not really. You can just copy them.
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You don't seem to be clear on whether ISIS did this or the US, but in most places you are ready to blame ISIS. Let's get our facts straight before placing blame. We do bad things, too.
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Wait, what makes you think the Times is unclear and since when do we report a major event-the destruction of an important and irreplaceable landmark-until we know who to blame? A crime against humanity has been committed. Who did it (as if any serious people could doubt) is of secondary news value.
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This is a hard cold world. Every symbol destroyed or twisted for ideological or personal use.
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Let's choose our news sources: ISIS or the U.S. military. Tough choice for a newspaperman, but for a fool like me, easy. Go USA!
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Ten of the most sacred Shia Muslim sites on Earth -tombs and mosque are in Iraq. Iraq is 60% Shia Muslim Arab. ISIS is a Sunni Muslim organization. ISIS has destroyed Ancient Iraqi sites that like this mosque survived the life of the Prophet and all of the Caliphs who came after him. One thing that ISIS is clearly not is Islamic.
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@blackmamba : exactly right . . . the proper categorisation is " Barbaric"
Please note, too, that Mosul is not a Shia city. It is a Sunni city and yet these evil organization that claims to represent Sunnis destroyed a historic Mosque.
No problem. President Trump knows how to defeat ISIS. He's the only one who can fix it. He knows even more than the generals and he's fully engaged. I'm very confident in his world class leadership, even as the planet seemingly plummets into total chaos. We're very "blessed" to have him in charge.
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I think this is sarcasm But, upon second look, I am not sure.... Third look, nahh, Sarcasm!
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It's obvious Mr. Trump knows how to defeat ISIS. Didn't you see him dance with a sword for his masters in Saudi Arabia? Didn't you see him bully the Montenegran premier in Paris to suck up to Putin? He knows everything about everything! Just ask the Dear Leader...
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Huh???
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ISIS has systematically destroyed any vestige of Islamic heritage, in every location they've found them.
No reason to expect otherwise here.
No reason to expect otherwise here.
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Oh the world will be a much better place without ISIS and the Republican Party. Sadly extremist are here to stay. They were present over 2000 years ago and they will always be around. The forces of evil is very persistent.
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As long as there is religion, there will be extremists willing to die for their version of myth and superstition. They will invoke the help of their gods and fight for their faith. Gert rid of religion and simply treat all people the way you wish to be treated and the world will be a much better place.
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Over 2000 years ago, a godly man preached that all men should love each other as brothers. Out of his teachings, scores of religions were born. And they all hate each other.
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but those extremists are often acting using their religion as cover/excuse for power-mad, greedy, megalomaniac goals. kinda like some real estate guys.
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Another blow to humanity's collective inheritance. The barbarism of ISIS knows no limits.
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And this is why Trump's ridiculous travel ban, and the thinly veiled bigotry of Trump, Flynn and Sessions doesn't help us. If we had a reputation of standing up for Muslim religious expression, it would be harder to believe we had a hand in destroying a mosque. But can Trump be bothered to hold an Iftar dinner, can Tillerson's State Department? No wonder they think we hate them. Rumors will fly and what can we offer to dissuade people from believing that the United States could be so callous?
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Please, Paula, decipher your informative and verbose statement.What did you actually mean?Cannot figure out for the life of me.
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What can we offer to dissuade indeed. Remember Kunduz? Why should anyone believe the U.S. didn't do it?
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I hate to disagree with Paula but, the US is and has been home to millions of Muslims for many decades. Only since 9/11 are we seeing a backlash to atrocities
committed by a segment of the Muslim population.
committed by a segment of the Muslim population.
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