Using the model of cost per ride vs. fares taken in, as some readers espouse, misses out on an important advantage illustrated by the Rockaways ferry, which has already helped boost business there. I talked to a bike shop owner, and a waitress at a bar'restaurant I go to there, and both said that business has picked up considerably with the new crowds. (I also personally noticed this). More business means more city tax receipts, more income for those who work there, and higher real estate values in a largely depressed albeit rebounding area. So the ferry benefits are not just more pleasant travel for tourists, but a better economy for all New Yorkers. Bring it on!
2
No public transportation system in the world pays for itself. To think it can is quite naive.
2
149 passengers. Golly gee! Considering a subway car can hold 250 people during rush hour it would take 10 ferries to move the same number of people as a short 6 car subway train!!! An entire day's worth of ferry service wouldn't move as many people as one single solitary standard sized subway train!! Brilliant planning!
All that money should have gone into improving subway service!! Much MUCH better bang for the buck!!
All that money should have gone into improving subway service!! Much MUCH better bang for the buck!!
4
A noble experiment, unbelievably successful. OMG, love it. Existing ships need more handrails for standees otherwise there are going to be injuries and law suits. Yes, will need more and bigger ships (especially when the L line is shut down).
3
The problem is crystal clear but unfortunately the City government didn't address the real, common sense issues.
The City provided a commuter alternative to Rockaway residents which is very appealing to the 20 million people in the metro area. $2.75 for a high speed one hour ride is a truly great bargain. The pricing is not sustainable as is the Citys inability to handle the demand it creates. There is a ferry that goes to Rockaway during the summer that costs $10. each way. Totally sensible
Look at the cost of the high speed ferry to NJ for commuters. Totally different model.
Financial mismanagement is not new in government. However this is a true outlier and will not be easily solved. It is a loss leader and no one, especially Rockaway residents will be happy campers.
The City provided a commuter alternative to Rockaway residents which is very appealing to the 20 million people in the metro area. $2.75 for a high speed one hour ride is a truly great bargain. The pricing is not sustainable as is the Citys inability to handle the demand it creates. There is a ferry that goes to Rockaway during the summer that costs $10. each way. Totally sensible
Look at the cost of the high speed ferry to NJ for commuters. Totally different model.
Financial mismanagement is not new in government. However this is a true outlier and will not be easily solved. It is a loss leader and no one, especially Rockaway residents will be happy campers.
149 passengers? Jeez the ferry in St Croix USVI is larger and the population is only 100k.
2
It would have probably been a good idea to talk to the operators in Sydney, their ferry works great and they are a fairly large city.
2
Has the City government forgotten the "HUDSON RIVER DAY LINES"
Time to bring it back.
Time to bring it back.
2
Been taking the ferry from Jersey City to Wall Street (expensive!) and then taking the East River ferry to either Brooklyn or 34th Street. It is a gorgeous and spirit-enhancing ride (especially when thinking about the alternative subways and PATH during rush hour), and I was especially grateful for it when I had a bum leg. The fact that they dropped the price of the East River ferry is miraculous. Wish that New Jersey would follow.....a much more civilized way of commuting, for sure.
2
It can be very hard to properly plan for a new transit service. Who can know how many people have been waiting for a cheaper or more convenient option?
When the Montreal subway was extended to Laval (next island to the north), originally only half the trains on the Orange line were planned to go there. Planners thought there would be 5000 new riders on the line, up to 10,000 within two years. There were 20,000 right away, all trains had to go to Laval, and within a few years, 60,000 riders.
Nothing succeeds like success! Be patient, ferry riders!
When the Montreal subway was extended to Laval (next island to the north), originally only half the trains on the Orange line were planned to go there. Planners thought there would be 5000 new riders on the line, up to 10,000 within two years. There were 20,000 right away, all trains had to go to Laval, and within a few years, 60,000 riders.
Nothing succeeds like success! Be patient, ferry riders!
8
Love the ferries. But, please watch out for us kayakers who take matters into our own hands.
3
I've been using the ferry on the East River for years, and loved it. But I am sad to say that the new service, and the bad planning that came with it, has ruined an essential feature of this form of transport: reliability. I was denied entry twice this week on my way to work due to full capacity, making me and hundreds of others late for work in Manhattan. Unlike the subway, one can't "just catch the next one" since the next ferry only comes 30 minutes later. This is bad planning on the city's part as this was not happening before, and was not happening before they overreached by opening the additional lines in South Brooklyn without having the necessary capacity in place. So now we have poor and unreliable service to more places. Thanks EDC, I'll have to go back to the subway now. I wish they would have stayed out of this and left our good ol' ferry alone.
1
Whatever the concerns with this might be, the fact is that this is a "good problem", as it highlights the demand that this new service will generate - and that will (slightly) relieve the burden currently borne by the subway riders. Once the bugs are worked out, this will be considered a definite "win-win" situation for NYC.
9
“We have designed this system to make sense for ordinary ridership, not necessarily for every tourist who comes on Memorial Day,” says James Patchett, the president of the city’s Economic Development Corporation.
Really, why not? And, importantly, aren't the two concepts related - i.e., if you cannot handle peak capacity you overwhelm its effectiveness for everyone.
With de Blasio such incompetence is not a surprise, the guy is not interested in details. Sigh.
Really, why not? And, importantly, aren't the two concepts related - i.e., if you cannot handle peak capacity you overwhelm its effectiveness for everyone.
With de Blasio such incompetence is not a surprise, the guy is not interested in details. Sigh.
3
The city's Economic Development Administration does disservice to the work of true planning by competent, credentialed, experienced planners and engineers. Political planning, driven by the Mayor's Office and lobbyists, is not planning. It's guesswork with a preconceived outcome.
1
Everything old is new again. My grandfather would tell me tales of taking the Dyckman Street Ferry back and forth to New Jersey before the GWB was built. That old ferry pier was still standing until the around 1999. It is time to start using the water ways more efficiently. Add docks and service. If you build it they will come. As a traveler to Campania in Italy annually, I can tell you that they have the ferry thing well organized...and hello they are Italian! ( So am I, and so it our " Mayor" maybe he could have picked up a tip or two on his many visits there wink wink)
3
Seattle and other waterway cities are way ahead of NYC. However, now that the shores of the boroughs which were once industrial have been transformed into high end residential neighborhoods, adding ferry service increases their value. It makes sense to do planning the right way - not the politically convenient way.
1
The authorities cited in this article sound so naive. "still accumulating the data," "designed this system to make sense for ordinary ridership... [not designed] for every tourist who comes on Memorial Day." Do they even live in this city? Have they ever taken the ferry? I've been riding it from Brooklyn to downtown Manhattan since 2012. Did they not get the 5 years of ridership data from the East River operators? Everyone who rides the ferry knows fully well that it's a cheap alternative to the Circle Line, and tourists LOVE taking it to Brooklyn & downtown Manhattan. You've got Wall Street and Williamsburg in one ferry ride, less than $5. It's more tourists than commuters. How could you plan a public transportation service and NOT consider tourists, IN NYC???? They can say what they will, but the city really did not plan this well.
16
When I was a girl in NYC, my mother set me free on Saturdays to experience the city by myself (sure wouldn't do this nowadays, with all the predators). My favorite thing was to ride the Staten Island ferry, back and forth, back and forth, observing the passengers, eavesdropping on their conversations. I fell in love with ferries, and now in my grownup life in coastal North Carolina, when I can I ride our ferries, to Southport and to the Outer Banks. Took a ferry from Melbourne to Tasmania couple of years ago, wonderful trip. And overnight ferry trip from Barcelona to Ibiza. Ferries are the way to go.
11
Anne,
Unless you are significantly older than your profile photo indicates (or you have aged fabulously), I challenge your statement that NYC was safer when you were a kid. I can say this as someone who was a kid in Manhattan in the 70's.
Unless you are significantly older than your profile photo indicates (or you have aged fabulously), I challenge your statement that NYC was safer when you were a kid. I can say this as someone who was a kid in Manhattan in the 70's.
5
Exactly. Predators? What predators? Maybe in your part of the country. NYC is still one of the safest large cities anywhere. You need to stop watching FoxNews.
1
I was a kid in Manhattan during WWII, for 5 years until 1949. (Yes, that is really my profile photo pretty much as I look today, other photos on FB, and thank you for the compliment.) You are my children's generation. NYC may not have been safer back in the olde days, but we didn't know what we know today about the dangers for children. And my parents encouraged me to be independent. I can assure you that nowadays I wouldn't let my grandchildren out of my sight in NYC. Also, we didn't have druggies when I lived in NYC; we had drunks, a big difference. I was taught simply to step over a drunk lying on the sidewalk or in a doorway, whereas a druggie will mug you for your $ and credit cards, We did have pedophiles; I was warned never to be alone with a rather stylish older woman (in her 50s) in the apartment elevator, as she was lesbian, and an old geezer groped me at a city playground while I sat alone on a bench, offered me candy if I'd go with him to his flat. I remembered my mother's admonition about strangers and candy, and I told him I could see my mother on the sidewalk coming to get me, and he got out of there fast. Hope this answers your "challenge."
1
The NY Harbor is a beautiful and now more clean treasure for the city and its people. Overcrowding the water with high-speed ferries (honk, honk, it's 5am!) will be a long-term mistake. The Harbor is a shared waterway for commercial and recreational boaters. If the ferry service rushes to add more boats, people could get hurt on the waterfront. The City ought to lead collaboration among boaters, and safety rules for all and also manage expectations for real estate developers/owners and their tenants. Don't oversell this. It's not a solution for under-investment in the subway.
3
The ferry service is symbolic of Mayor De Blasio: great ideas, terrible management.
19
“We have designed this system to make sense for ordinary ridership, not necessarily for every tourist who comes on Memorial Day,” says James Patchett, the president of the city’s Economic Development Corporation.
Guess what? New York City is one of the country's PREMIER tourist destinations, not only for visitors, but also for locals as well. Everyone likes to go "to the city" on the weekends. In light of the always-clogged surface arteries, ferries are a very viable and convenient alternative. While the city might still be acquiring ridership metrics, there does seem to be much more demand than anticipated. Wise management will develop and expand the ferry service and routes to accommodate all ridership demand.
This is a transportation concept whose time has come (again)!
Guess what? New York City is one of the country's PREMIER tourist destinations, not only for visitors, but also for locals as well. Everyone likes to go "to the city" on the weekends. In light of the always-clogged surface arteries, ferries are a very viable and convenient alternative. While the city might still be acquiring ridership metrics, there does seem to be much more demand than anticipated. Wise management will develop and expand the ferry service and routes to accommodate all ridership demand.
This is a transportation concept whose time has come (again)!
14
The whole ferry experiment is a wonderful idea that is suffering from too much success. It is hard to blame the city planners as prediicting the future is never easy though I'm sure it is frustrating if you are trying to get somewhere on a timely basis. Give the city time and as more boats come on line a new New York tradition will be established.
11
Sorry, but if the city planners used the data of the experts running the East River ferry for more than a decade, then they would have gotten it right from the get go. As a ferry user of the East River route since the 2012 blackout, I can attest to the previous three operators having been much more better prepared for the ongoing growth of the system and the waterfront. In 2012, the East River ferry had only four stops and in time, as the waterfront development has exploded, they were able to manage the logistics for such growth. Such data exists, but the hubris of this administration won't allow them to leverage what is in front of their noses.
4
** Correction: Blackout of 2002, not 2012.
I am amazed there's any surprise that an island (Manhattan) offering new ferry services for commuters and or tourists meets with unexpected demand. When you're surrounded by water a boat makes more sense than a bridge, tunnel or parking garage.
11
Heard rumors that the initial proposal was for bigger boats, but the Mayor's office overrode that decision for current 149 passenger boats. While financially it makes sense in case demand doesn't meet supply, now it's a logistical nightmare
8
I heard the same thing from very reputable sources. And Hornblower has until now run tour boats, not commuter boats.
DeBlas always thinks he knows more than people with greater experience than he has. Christine Quinn where are you? Scott Stringer, please think about it. DeBlas rushed the ferry project because he wanted a success for his campapgn. Not!
DeBlas always thinks he knows more than people with greater experience than he has. Christine Quinn where are you? Scott Stringer, please think about it. DeBlas rushed the ferry project because he wanted a success for his campapgn. Not!
1
The ferry piers need shelter from sun and rain. People wait on the ferry piers without shelter for 30 minutes or more at midday. This happened to me on a very sunny saturday recently at the Williamsburg East River Ferry. I think it was an oversite on the city's part. I abandoned my wait, I was too concerned with sun damage. But rain and extreme heat or cold is an issue
too. What can be done??
too. What can be done??
7
How about an umbrella and some sunscreen?
7
When it's sunny, wear a hat (and sunscreen).
When it's rainy, wear a raincoat.
When it's cold, wear a jacket.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea of what can be done.
When it's rainy, wear a raincoat.
When it's cold, wear a jacket.
I could go on, but I think you get the idea of what can be done.
4
The idea that you should need a to bring sunscreen to wait for transport is ridiculous. The bus stops have shelters, why not the ferries? This is NYC for gosh sakes!
1
Yup. I have frequently taken the ferry from south williamsburg to lower Manhattan. Over the last two weeks six of my eight attempts at riding the ferry have required that I wait for multiple ferries to go by before I was allowed to board. Wednesday several of us waited for over an hour while three full ferries came and went without us. I finally walked half a mile to the J. There should be a quota at each stop so ferries don't arrive full. And a priority commuter pass that allows regular riders trying to get to work on time to pre-pay for a bunch of rides and in exchange get a status that puts them at the front of the queue. Or that restricts rush hour ferries to only them, not tourists. I was a huge fan of the ferry. Now that the price dropped, it causes me more headaches than the subway.
14
To distinguish between subsidising tourists vs residents it's discriminatory to offer differing fares based on where you live. The way around this is similar to what train systems do, offer a discount on a weekly or monthly pass. So charge a high fare for an individual ride, but build the $2.75 fare into a weekly or monthly pass, that will make the tourist subsidies go away.
6
"it's discriminatory to offer differing fares based on where you live" no it's not. State schools and universities such as UVA, Cal, Michigan, etc. charge smaller tuition for in-state residents.
7
Good point although i'm not sure the same standard applies to public transportation, but even if it did, i think basing fares off location would make a lot of tourists angry at the very least.
People trying to get to work or home should have priority over gawking tourists. It can be part of the NYC experience for the rubes.
1
Great service but will be overwhelmed with tourists (who we NYC residents are subsidizing), especially during the warm weather months. Ridership will certainly decline during the winter when the temperatures drop and the cold winds set in making it impractical to drastically increase a permanent fleet. The fare should not have been pegged to the MTA fare as certainly NYC's subsidy for the service will certainly growth; there is no way it can recover costs or even come close.
4
Cost recovery is not the measure of success on a public transportation system. Our roads do not recover costs, not do our rail systems, nor do our air systems. Making a public transportation system affordable to all members of society involves subsidization. These ferries make commuting and moving around easier for city residents living near the waterways. They ease congestion on our roads and subways, which badly need the relief, as everyone knows. They also encourage development by the waterways which means more residents, businesses, tax revenue and economic growth for the city.
25
Cost recovery is not the measure of success, but with limited dollars to go around, the per passenger subsidy for these ferries is far higher than that of the subway. These are not a practical solution to our transit problems, and the only way to keep up with population growth is by expanding heavy rail throughout the five boroughs, but not at the current cost, which is 3-4x more expensive per mile than they're building at in Europe.
3
Wish I lived in a waterfront community so that I had a ferry option. Instead, I am a subway commuter that has been impacted by too few tax dollars being utilized for standard maintenance. This is the system the Mayor has said is not under his purview although it serves his voters. Instead, he is focused on creating/expanding new modes (ferries and streetcars) that reach a selected demographic that perhaps will contribute to his campaign. I am so jealous..................
Great service for commuters. But let's not keep subsidizing tourists. How about $2.75 with NYC ID and $17.75 otherwise?
39
I think it's a good idea and it makes sense, but doubt it will get a green light (sadly "why should my taxes pay for..." never works). Wonder if there are any public transportaion systems in the US that have lower pricing for residents of those states
As a New Yorker, I feel the sentiment. But let's not forget that tourists dump money into any local economy they visit. Having them receive the small benefits of public subsidies on a few subway and boat rides is a good investment for the non-stop spending tourism brings to hotels, restaurants, shops, museums, etc etc. Especially nowadays when tourism to the US is down due to the isolationist policies of you-know-who, a little openness toward tourists, both foreign and domestic is a welcome relief over a punitive, protectionist mindset.
12
How about you pay $50.00/ear for corn since not much grows I'm Times Square. We are one country. E Pluribus Unum, brother.
2
New Yorkers being New Yorkers.
These new ferry routes with lowered fares are a fantastic idea and a great deal. Naturally a boat taking you from the Rockaways to Manhattan in under an hour for $2.75 is going to be very popular. It will take some time to iron out the details, but let's praise the city for adding this much needed service. New York's waterways are an underused resource in our transportation system and it's great to see this new ferry system going into effect.
These new ferry routes with lowered fares are a fantastic idea and a great deal. Naturally a boat taking you from the Rockaways to Manhattan in under an hour for $2.75 is going to be very popular. It will take some time to iron out the details, but let's praise the city for adding this much needed service. New York's waterways are an underused resource in our transportation system and it's great to see this new ferry system going into effect.
55
I've been riding the ferries for years. East River Ferry had over crowding problems fairly often during times of peak demand, right up until the end. They weren't perfect by any means. This isn't anything new. It's going to take some time for the city to get a handle on ridership needs and adjust. The new, much lower fare, is proving to be too attractive to non commuters (tourists, etc.). They are going to have to address this, by making the non-commuter fare higher. Weekly/Montly passes, etc.
2