My heart goes out to all of those dear families and their children who are affected by this preventable fire......what will it take for those who know better to do the right thing by the people who depend on them for a place to be safe? God bless the fire fighters and first responders! God bless those dear people who did not imagine, just a day ago, they would be without a home. We need a legion of guardian angels for them and I am sending one of mine right now.
2
"London Fire Shows Why Britons Don’t Trust the System"
I'd go further and say this is why all Westeners (and possibly all humans) so not trust "the system", because it inevitably gets you killed.
If I was an insurance company and people showed me they trusted the system, I'd have to put their premiums up to cover the extra costs.
I'd go further and say this is why all Westeners (and possibly all humans) so not trust "the system", because it inevitably gets you killed.
If I was an insurance company and people showed me they trusted the system, I'd have to put their premiums up to cover the extra costs.
1
This shows the problem when you keep having more and more people requiring their basic life needs taken care of by a government when resources are limited. Wonder why Brexit passed?
7
June 15, 2017
Advance societies need advance justice to maintain reasonable safety in every and all realms of potential disaster. This Grenfell Tower is a firestorm seen and heard around the world and with articles like this we can prevent the preventable and indeed give lessons learned to world media to share our well-being.
jja Manhattan, N.Y.
Advance societies need advance justice to maintain reasonable safety in every and all realms of potential disaster. This Grenfell Tower is a firestorm seen and heard around the world and with articles like this we can prevent the preventable and indeed give lessons learned to world media to share our well-being.
jja Manhattan, N.Y.
2
My heart and prayers go out to all affected by this horrible fire.
More importantly, I hope it will be a wake-up call to the Councils of Britain and also to the government in the USA. We can't take shortcuts when lives are at stake. One death from a preventable tragedy diminishes us all.
More importantly, I hope it will be a wake-up call to the Councils of Britain and also to the government in the USA. We can't take shortcuts when lives are at stake. One death from a preventable tragedy diminishes us all.
5
A few years ago I represented a very small monastery - 6 monks - who owned a residence in Berkeley. They sought to enlarge the building somewhat, and refurbish a room for use as a chapel. Only the monks lived there permanently; there were a few rooms for temporary guests.
The City of Berkeley forced us to install sprinklers throughout the building as a part of the refurbishment. We argued a little, that the home was only incidentally a gathering place for non-residents, but the building department put it to me: "What if you argue your way out of this, and then there is a fire and someone is injured or killed? Aside from liability, how is everyone going to feel about that?"
I took this back to my clients, and we all agreed that installing the sprinklers was the right answer, and it was done. When I attend services there I see the sprinklers on the ceiling of the chapel and I'm glad.
So this home, which maybe has 2500 square feet, in a residential area in Berkeley, is required to have sprinklers, but this monster 24 story residence tower in London, home to hundreds of families, had none? Does the UK even HAVE building codes?
The City of Berkeley forced us to install sprinklers throughout the building as a part of the refurbishment. We argued a little, that the home was only incidentally a gathering place for non-residents, but the building department put it to me: "What if you argue your way out of this, and then there is a fire and someone is injured or killed? Aside from liability, how is everyone going to feel about that?"
I took this back to my clients, and we all agreed that installing the sprinklers was the right answer, and it was done. When I attend services there I see the sprinklers on the ceiling of the chapel and I'm glad.
So this home, which maybe has 2500 square feet, in a residential area in Berkeley, is required to have sprinklers, but this monster 24 story residence tower in London, home to hundreds of families, had none? Does the UK even HAVE building codes?
14
Where were the building smoke alarms, fire extinguishers and fire sprinklers?
Where were the building fire code regulations and building code inspector inspections and reports?
Where were the building fire code regulations and building code inspector inspections and reports?
13
The smoke alarms were designed only to go off on the floor where the fire was "contained". The fire sprinklers were not installed because under UK law, old buildings dont have to have them. Obviously, it is too early to know what catastrophic error, or combination of errors, resulted in the fire spreading up the outside of the building, but it is deeply shocking that so many people have to die before the authorities stop passing the buck and start doing something. If they stop passing the buck, that is.
7
The pupose of building codes is first and foremost the protection of life, health and property. In Chicago the experience of the Iroquois Theater fire provided the basis for a stringent building code. In some other countries the approving authorities require performance certificates for building materials, test results for flame spread and smoke extraction. Fire protection begins during conceptual design and until the authorities sign off on the fire protection, the building does not go into operation. The opening of the Berlin Airport is still being delayed for years until two conflicting fire protection concepts can be reconciled.
We have seen mwhen British industrial facilities were not designed to comply with the requirements of the insurers, The toughest laws I have encountered are in Germany, where fire protection is part of conceptual design. The performance of materials
We have seen mwhen British industrial facilities were not designed to comply with the requirements of the insurers, The toughest laws I have encountered are in Germany, where fire protection is part of conceptual design. The performance of materials
5
Is the bulding still standing or has it collapsed due to fire damage?
2
Fire safety certainly is science-based, yet from a global perspective it’s a distressing patchwork of highly variegated interpretations and bureaucratic games. The scientific community in general and experts in life-safety related industries have a major international role to play in helping improve the lot, especially in cost-effective ways, in cities lagging behind in their codes, implementation and yes, absolutely, citizen awareness and participation. Ms. Brooke’s memorable call - “the end of the stay-put citizen” - summons us all.
2
That the "official" instructions in the event of a fire were to stay put is ludicrous. How many were killed or hurt by this ridiculous rule? Serious jail time for the overseers.
8
you're a firefighter and you're trying to get to the fire while scores of people are trying to use the same access point you'er using. At some point the rule may have become ridiculous, but initially when you're trying to bring a fire under control inside a building, it's a good rule.
2
“Stay put” advice makes sense when a building functions as it should: containing the fire within one unit and preventing spread to the rest of the building. Not what happened here, obviously.
6
If an apartment building is constructed according to current building codes with at least a 90 minute fire separation between the fire and the occupied space, the rationale is that the fire will have been extinguished before it has penetrated your space.
Combustible exterior cladding is insanity on a 27 story building.
Combustible exterior cladding is insanity on a 27 story building.
7
Where is the physical evidence of a fire and for the dead and injured?
Ah, the famous Heather Brooke!Hamid Varzi (of Tehran, Iran)”
“thank Heaven that of 120 families caught at 1 a.m. in a flame-engulfed tower, only 12 persons are known to have perished. It could well have been up to 100 entire families.”
He should have kept up with events. We are already up to 17 known deaths, and a reputable political commentator has been:
“told by a London council source that the emergency services are expecting the number of deaths to be ‘more than a hundred’, and possibly ‘much more’ than that.”
Similarly Richard (of London) deplores:
“… an article which even the Guardian might find hard to swallow. […]
“the fact that there are billionaires living a couple of miles away in Holland Park has, in the last analysis, nothing to do with the tragedy at the Tower; as a former resident, the public housing stock in K&C has always struck me as being pretty well maintained, as you would hope in a rich borough.”
That is partisan, polemical pleading.
What we know is that the cladding of the Tower was downgraded in quality by the contractors (who have significantly changed their press release overnight), and the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea complied. What we know is the residents of the Tower repeatedly pointed to numerous failures in safety, not excluding the provision of natural-gas alongside the only evacuation routes.
This is a scandal of national and historic dimensions. Nobody should minimise it.
“thank Heaven that of 120 families caught at 1 a.m. in a flame-engulfed tower, only 12 persons are known to have perished. It could well have been up to 100 entire families.”
He should have kept up with events. We are already up to 17 known deaths, and a reputable political commentator has been:
“told by a London council source that the emergency services are expecting the number of deaths to be ‘more than a hundred’, and possibly ‘much more’ than that.”
Similarly Richard (of London) deplores:
“… an article which even the Guardian might find hard to swallow. […]
“the fact that there are billionaires living a couple of miles away in Holland Park has, in the last analysis, nothing to do with the tragedy at the Tower; as a former resident, the public housing stock in K&C has always struck me as being pretty well maintained, as you would hope in a rich borough.”
That is partisan, polemical pleading.
What we know is that the cladding of the Tower was downgraded in quality by the contractors (who have significantly changed their press release overnight), and the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea complied. What we know is the residents of the Tower repeatedly pointed to numerous failures in safety, not excluding the provision of natural-gas alongside the only evacuation routes.
This is a scandal of national and historic dimensions. Nobody should minimise it.
10
In a country obsessed with 'Health & Safety', this negligence is appalling.
5
The UK has collapsed under the weight of it's own bureaucracy. It is currently in the process of unravelling.
2
wao the nerve of this woman to write. it was the neighbors of this tower block like her who complained the building was an eye sore to its posh neighbots. thats why the refurbishment with cheap flammable stuff was carried out. the neighbours should be ashamed of themselves
5
There is a special place in hell for public officials and politicians who turned a blind eye to residents' pleas to address fire safety issues in this public housing high rise.
12
There should also be a special place in prison for them.
12
Were London public officials and politicians paid by the landlord to turn a blind eye to residents' pleas to address fire safety issues in this public housing high rise?
Like in the USA? Oakland, CA: Castle Hills, TX; etc.
Like in the USA? Oakland, CA: Castle Hills, TX; etc.
3
Interesting perspective. Just wait until you get to our system of one dollar one vote, one citizen two guns. That's when it gets crazy.
The author ends his article stating "The residents of Grenfell did not have that power.", referring to their governance. Yet earlier he states the 8 of 15 board members are residents, a clear majority that could take any action they wished! Ms. May is now attempting to rule without a majority but the authors own description of Grenfell Towers states the residents were in control with a majority of board members able to make any policy changes they wished!
1
Hmm, well now you've changed the article title from "The End of the Stay-Put Citizen" to "London Fire Shows Why Britons Don't Trust the System." So some of the earlier comments posted below may not make as much sense. "Staying-put" is a specific response to a high-rise fire.
2
System??? today's system, globally is about nothing more than "making money" systems PERIOD!
It's called greed.
It's called greed.
5
Avoidable tragedy. Many of the victims of this fire and the residents of this building were immigrants or refugees that arrived in Britain during the "Cool Britannia" era of Blair, Brown and Cameron. This 'happy-happy' well-meaning multicultural dream is turning into a nightmare. Encouraging immigration of very poor people without taking care of them properly is foolish and unintentionally cruel. You cannot expect a small nation like England, that has a long history of poverty and social injustice, to volunteer to take-on the additional responsibility of caring for poor immigrants. Cheap tower blocks in London's wealthier areas was a recipe for disaster. Tragic.
2
That social housing tower block was built in the 1970's and refurbished in the last 2 years. It was not cheap to built or refurbish but it is obvious that mistakes were made in the design, choice of materials and safety advice.
This catastrophe has nothing to do with immigrants - many inhabitants were as white as you are....
This catastrophe has nothing to do with immigrants - many inhabitants were as white as you are....
5
and the brits pride on their so called democracy
A majority of the board is residents, giving them the final say on any refurbishment, and they pay only 10-20% of the market value of their apartments. But because many of them are black, brown, and/or Muslim, anything that happens to them is rich white people's fault.
Britain and America truly are much alike.
Britain and America truly are much alike.
Allow me to respectfully disagree with the title: I live in Great Britain, and most people here vote, more the in USA, pay their taxes, and follow the rules.
It's fair to say that the working class does not trust the Conservatives (Party of the Rich!), and the "Upper class" does not trust the Labour Party (Commies' Party!).
It's fair to say that the working class does not trust the Conservatives (Party of the Rich!), and the "Upper class" does not trust the Labour Party (Commies' Party!).
2
Firstly, the article is outstanding!
Secondly, Guido, with respect, I'm a Londoner from way way back in the Blitz times and watched events there for a number of years - spent some good time in North America and returned to London. True the slums that I lived in changed to a bit of an upmarket style but politics never changed, maybe a bit under Macmillan. As a recent example, in December 2016, Jacob Rees Mogg, a Conservative Member of the Government, told a parliamentary committee that regulations were good enough for India and could be good enough for the UK and the UK could go a very long way by ruling back high EU Standards. (independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-works-right-jacob-rees--mogg-a74599336.html.)
On fire investigation/ prevention knowledge I have always been eternally grateful to the New York State Fire Sciences Academy when I was a student there on three occasions, many years ago. Just keep your standards up USA.
Secondly, Guido, with respect, I'm a Londoner from way way back in the Blitz times and watched events there for a number of years - spent some good time in North America and returned to London. True the slums that I lived in changed to a bit of an upmarket style but politics never changed, maybe a bit under Macmillan. As a recent example, in December 2016, Jacob Rees Mogg, a Conservative Member of the Government, told a parliamentary committee that regulations were good enough for India and could be good enough for the UK and the UK could go a very long way by ruling back high EU Standards. (independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-safety-standards-works-right-jacob-rees--mogg-a74599336.html.)
On fire investigation/ prevention knowledge I have always been eternally grateful to the New York State Fire Sciences Academy when I was a student there on three occasions, many years ago. Just keep your standards up USA.
5
I love this writer - great insight and flow in her piece. Terrible news, well reported.
5
Leonardo da Vinci invented a fire sprinkler system in the 15th century. The first successfully automated sprinkler system dates back to 1723 - and yet in London and all over the UK, 2017, there are high rise flats with hundreds of occupants without any such fire safety devices? So the United Kingdom's rulers are quite happy to spend hundreds of billions of pounds on nuclear submarines with the aim of annihilating threatening enemies a bit before they annihilate this country ... but no willingness to implement and retrofit basic fire regulations to protect it's citizens?
11
Another example of the NYTimes publishing knee-jerk and uninformed commentary about the UK. Residents of tall buildings (yes, even tall buildings that house rich people) are told to stay put in the event of a fire because in almost all previous incidents fires have spread through hallways and stairwells. Doors are fireproof. Stairwells have to be kept clear for firefighters. So there is a good reason that residents have been advised to stay put.
Meanwhile, UK newspapers have been going to experts to get the story rather than knee-jerk responses by professors of journalism.(See the Guardian and the Telegraph. It turns out the most likely culprit is exterior cladding used to insulate the buildings to meet sustainability objectives. This is done is rich buildings as well as tower blocks. There have been questions about this since 1999. So the real scandal here is one of building codes, not about rich vs poor.
So sorry to spoil your story line.
Meanwhile, UK newspapers have been going to experts to get the story rather than knee-jerk responses by professors of journalism.(See the Guardian and the Telegraph. It turns out the most likely culprit is exterior cladding used to insulate the buildings to meet sustainability objectives. This is done is rich buildings as well as tower blocks. There have been questions about this since 1999. So the real scandal here is one of building codes, not about rich vs poor.
So sorry to spoil your story line.
5
Despite the fact that building regulations, fire codes, inspections, etc., are the responsibility of government in the UK (as in the USA) there were knee-jerk comments blaming "corporations."
When will lefties understand that the system inevitably fails when government ownership replaces private ownership, i.e., socialism?
When will lefties understand that the system inevitably fails when government ownership replaces private ownership, i.e., socialism?
2
PAY TO PLAY is now at the local city levels in the USA, just like the Federal Government's INSTITUTIONALIZED PAY TO PLAY system of governance?
Maybe England is following the US system of governance in Building Code Compliance!
I am not familiar with the Oakland city Building Code, but converting a warehouse into multilevel living spaces would not comply with any national building code without major building modifications.
Did Oakland city building inspectors take periodic cash gratuities to allow this money making residential operation to continue?
Did Oakland city councilmen take cash gratuities to exempt this money making residential operation building from The Oakland Building Code compliance?
I hope that Houston does not have any of this PAY TO PLAY going on that might cause the deaths of some of our Houston citizens.
Why aren't some of the Oakland City Councilmen, Building Inspectors, and property owners that allowed this in jail?
Maybe England is following the US system of governance in Building Code Compliance!
I am not familiar with the Oakland city Building Code, but converting a warehouse into multilevel living spaces would not comply with any national building code without major building modifications.
Did Oakland city building inspectors take periodic cash gratuities to allow this money making residential operation to continue?
Did Oakland city councilmen take cash gratuities to exempt this money making residential operation building from The Oakland Building Code compliance?
I hope that Houston does not have any of this PAY TO PLAY going on that might cause the deaths of some of our Houston citizens.
Why aren't some of the Oakland City Councilmen, Building Inspectors, and property owners that allowed this in jail?
2
I don't know who Heather Brooke is but I cannot remember a press article so well written. The balance of feelings is represented very well, and the frustrations that have emerged due to the mix of private and public responsibilities which we have created in the UK, is perfectly summarised in her words.
5
A robust fire code coupled with rigorous enforcement is critical in modern life. Clearly, when we have witnessed through tragic film fires of this type in other major cities - Dubai and Australia come to mind - there is something amiss in the construction of these towers of death. Yet I can see the roadblocks to thoroughly studying the problem are also very robust since we are talking about failures of bureaucracy across several countries. Which country's government has the moral strength to lead a complete investigation and airing of the findings?
11
Don't forget the Ghost Ship fire in Oakland that occurred recently. 36 dead, partly fraud and incompetence on the part of the manager and owner, partly bureaucratic incompetence.
2
I am bewildered why any form or brand of flammable cladding is available and why individuals use it knowing all too well of the results if a fire broke out. Why are products such as this not banned? There are a lot of things in this country that I disagree with, but thank God for federal, state and city standards which would not have allowed this product to be used but less sold in this country. You can be sure that the next time I see one of our city housing inspectors, he or she will be thanked and appreciated for the job they do.
11
What if our building inspectors are "on the take" and allow people to occupy tall buildings constructed of flammable materials?
2
Well Gerald, there is always that scenario so you are correct in your thinking. Nothing is full proof. I still think and believe US standards and regulations are tighter than most countries. An extremely valid question on your part. Thanks.
1
In the United States Trump and the Republicans seek to abolish and undermine enforcement of regulations enacted to protect the safety of people, property, environment and welfare of present and future generations. They claim that business profits and growth are limited by these laws.
Our first fire codes were developed as a result of periodic fires that destroyed major parts of Boston and Chicago. The spread of fire resulted from widespread use of flammable building materials and the patchwork of incompatible fire fighting equipment and inadequate water supplies. In NYC the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire killed 146 workers in 1911. These people died because their employers had locked the doors to the stairwells and exits to prevent "unauthorized breaks" and "employee theft."
To save money the people of Flint were allowed to drink and bathe in lead contaminated water some have may have died from Legionnaire's Disease as well.
Regulations like Glass Steagall ("The Depression") Dodd Frank Act (2008 Financial Meltdown) were enacted to protect against financial catastrophes.
Regulations have been enacted to provide clean air, water, and food.
Regulations are "protections" but have no value unless they are obeyed and enforced.
In London people saved money and increased their profit by constructing a building to poor safety standards and failed to address the resident complaints about hazardous conditions. The residents who paid their rent now paid with their lives.
Our first fire codes were developed as a result of periodic fires that destroyed major parts of Boston and Chicago. The spread of fire resulted from widespread use of flammable building materials and the patchwork of incompatible fire fighting equipment and inadequate water supplies. In NYC the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire killed 146 workers in 1911. These people died because their employers had locked the doors to the stairwells and exits to prevent "unauthorized breaks" and "employee theft."
To save money the people of Flint were allowed to drink and bathe in lead contaminated water some have may have died from Legionnaire's Disease as well.
Regulations like Glass Steagall ("The Depression") Dodd Frank Act (2008 Financial Meltdown) were enacted to protect against financial catastrophes.
Regulations have been enacted to provide clean air, water, and food.
Regulations are "protections" but have no value unless they are obeyed and enforced.
In London people saved money and increased their profit by constructing a building to poor safety standards and failed to address the resident complaints about hazardous conditions. The residents who paid their rent now paid with their lives.
32
aluminium cladding is a must today in any high rise building whether in dubai or detroit.Having said that the double glazed windows use silicon sealant which are not really safe as it can catch fire at high temperatures.However the cladding sealant being used widely is now fire retardant and this can be seen in various dubai constructions.Why the council ignored the safety factors or why safety inspectors were not allowed to inspect and recommend adequate safety provisions beats ones common sense.All that can be said is the unfortunate suffering souls might be ruing their decision to make the tower their home
2
When a project is underfunded the government turns it over to private enterprises as if they will do a better job with inadequate funding. They call it not for profit enterprise, they will make their profit by cutting even more corners, they just don't call it profit, more like CEO salaries.
It is the model Republicans and Trump will set up and finance the promised trillion $$ infrastructure
It is the model Republicans and Trump will set up and finance the promised trillion $$ infrastructure
1
As a former resident of Notting Hill (about a mile away from Grenfell Tower) I can tell you that the borough council does have an imperious attitude. My example is trivial in this context, but the council decided to block traffic on my street every Saturday. It claimed there had been a consultation: there had not. It claimed it had circulated leaflets: it had not. My neighbors and I fought hard, and a number of them are well-qualified lawyers; all of us were well-equipped to handle such a protest, in the way that residents of social housing may not always be. The council evaded, ignored, and flat-out lied. We secured a partial victory, but it was the willingness to lie that was amazing.
What complicates things is that the borough is sub-divided into wards and if you live in a Labour-controlled ward they really don't care. Democratically, that is your one accessible lever. (There is judicial review but that is costly and slow.) Furthermore, by the standards of local government, it is actually efficient: unfortunately that efficiency informs its institutional arrogance.
This area was a notorious slum (look up the piggeries at Notting Dale, and the Christie murders) and the council did a lot to try and improve matters. It does not possess a magic wand to deal with issues of social privation. But I find it very easy to believe that it ignored residents and regarded their complaints as irritations and I hope real lessons are learned.
What complicates things is that the borough is sub-divided into wards and if you live in a Labour-controlled ward they really don't care. Democratically, that is your one accessible lever. (There is judicial review but that is costly and slow.) Furthermore, by the standards of local government, it is actually efficient: unfortunately that efficiency informs its institutional arrogance.
This area was a notorious slum (look up the piggeries at Notting Dale, and the Christie murders) and the council did a lot to try and improve matters. It does not possess a magic wand to deal with issues of social privation. But I find it very easy to believe that it ignored residents and regarded their complaints as irritations and I hope real lessons are learned.
16
This was horrific -my first thought was "good God - don't they have any fire inspectors or regulations????" Clearly the "system" is broken, and many lost their lives as a result. This article implies that once again "cost cutting" was given more important that assuring the safety of constituents. Imagine only one staircase to exit a building of this size. Apparently the fire alarm system wasn't working. Someone should be held responsible for manslaughter at a minimum. I cannot imagine the horror experienced by those trapped as the building burned. Incredibly sad, and absolutely preventable.
14
Even shallow entertainment like "The Towering Inferno" carries an inescapable and inarguable message: regulations save lives. I would rather regulations kill jobs than by their absence kill people.
28
Poor quality housing is one of the symptoms of the rot that permeates governments worldwide.
It begins with various and sundry actions to deny services to the poor and the middle-class, in ever escalating efforts to increase the obscene wealth of the masters, the 1%ters, the corporate controllers at the helm of government.
We see this avaricious carefully planned destruction of the rights of the masses, wholesale disenfranchisement, occurring literally in nearly every western nation, slowly over the last 40 years, and now picking up speed in response to, and in an effort, to counter the anger that is roiling the masses; governments are ring-fencing, steadily preparing for bloody response to their awful policies.
This deadly fire is a highly visible result of government gone wild, but in the scheme of things it's awful effect pales when compared to the everyday actions of governments, killing and maiming at will, and reducing the masses to economic slavery and penury.
Insofar as the lot of the masses is concerned, little improvement can be quantified in the last 40 years, while the masters of mankind have reaped enormous wealth off the suffering of people all over the planet.
It begins with various and sundry actions to deny services to the poor and the middle-class, in ever escalating efforts to increase the obscene wealth of the masters, the 1%ters, the corporate controllers at the helm of government.
We see this avaricious carefully planned destruction of the rights of the masses, wholesale disenfranchisement, occurring literally in nearly every western nation, slowly over the last 40 years, and now picking up speed in response to, and in an effort, to counter the anger that is roiling the masses; governments are ring-fencing, steadily preparing for bloody response to their awful policies.
This deadly fire is a highly visible result of government gone wild, but in the scheme of things it's awful effect pales when compared to the everyday actions of governments, killing and maiming at will, and reducing the masses to economic slavery and penury.
Insofar as the lot of the masses is concerned, little improvement can be quantified in the last 40 years, while the masters of mankind have reaped enormous wealth off the suffering of people all over the planet.
14
Another example of how Britain and the U.S. have rapidly become failing societies. One reason is that they draw on one another for inspiration but only have failed models to offer. Their only valuable resource, people, are just tossed aside or burned up. That's the fate of the poor in both countries.
11
The system that Britons should distrust and despise is this one: their class system. Poor people were relegated to living in this high-rise housing project, as they are shunted to the periphery of Paris in the same manner. These are the people who keep the money-making machinery of the big city working and who are invisible to the posers in their Savile Row tailoring as they natter on to impress those around them with their illustrious pedigree and education...
13
Thing is, we do have strict building codes.
And not just for fire.
Somebody has ignored them and that person is going to jail (hopefully)
And not just for fire.
Somebody has ignored them and that person is going to jail (hopefully)
3
I read they just put insulation on the outside of the building. Looking at the charred outside, it looks like the insulation was flammable.
6
This is a horrific disaster, and since it was avoidable, it is outrageous that this was allowed to happen.
I'm surprised the author doesn't mention the words "fire code" and "inspection". I'm not sure what to make of her blaming undemocratic, paternalistic authorities. In my understanding, a "paternalistic" authority would actually care about citizens' well-being, and this sadly appears not to have been the case. The immediate questions are: did the building comply with fire code? If yes, the code must be unbelievably weak and needs to be strengthened. If no: why didn't fire inspectors flag the violations and require the necessary improvements? And if they did, why were the violations ignored?
I'm surprised the author doesn't mention the words "fire code" and "inspection". I'm not sure what to make of her blaming undemocratic, paternalistic authorities. In my understanding, a "paternalistic" authority would actually care about citizens' well-being, and this sadly appears not to have been the case. The immediate questions are: did the building comply with fire code? If yes, the code must be unbelievably weak and needs to be strengthened. If no: why didn't fire inspectors flag the violations and require the necessary improvements? And if they did, why were the violations ignored?
7
Maybe the fire will inspire change. In progressive times, the Triangle fire built the platform for workplace safety regulations. It was just horrible enough to shake the country's conscience.
And maybe it won't. The author cites paternalism as a prime cause, but along with that surely must be a desire to keep one's head in the sand because the cost is expensive and the residents are lower class or immigrants.
What do you do about the poor? If you can't find good profitable work for them, and can't afford to pay to keep them housed, you close your eyes and hide behind bureaucracy.
And maybe it won't. The author cites paternalism as a prime cause, but along with that surely must be a desire to keep one's head in the sand because the cost is expensive and the residents are lower class or immigrants.
What do you do about the poor? If you can't find good profitable work for them, and can't afford to pay to keep them housed, you close your eyes and hide behind bureaucracy.
4
My prayers are with you in London, but as they say, if you pray, move your feet. Immediately, you can Install smoke detectors in all residential buildings.
Longer term, you can meet with other cities in the world that have had these type of fires, and gather lessons learned. Should your building and product testing codes could use an upgrade? Most certainly. Should flammable cladding be removed? Yes. And so on...
Look at how much money you spend preventing terrorist attacks, but fires kill more so disserve more attention.
Longer term, you can meet with other cities in the world that have had these type of fires, and gather lessons learned. Should your building and product testing codes could use an upgrade? Most certainly. Should flammable cladding be removed? Yes. And so on...
Look at how much money you spend preventing terrorist attacks, but fires kill more so disserve more attention.
3
Among the many, many disturbing aspects about this, one that caught my attention: the fact that a local government can send a lawyer to harass a website. Not only were the warnings ignored, but there was an active attempt to shut them down. This is not how an open society with a free press is supposed to work. But it has often seemed to me that the UK is far less free than it would like to pretend.
10
I have never in my 40+ years seen a high rise apartment building completely engulfed in flames. Wth London? This is not 1817, its 1917. We, as civilized society, know how to mitigate fire risk in high-rise buildings. It figures then, the building housed the poor.
More than a few people are going to jail, for murder.
More than a few people are going to jail, for murder.
4
Talk about living in the past - it's 2017, not 1917.
And did the World Trade Centre house the poor? Didn't think so.
And did the World Trade Centre house the poor? Didn't think so.
It's becoming increasingly clear that London has become favorite dumping ground for those who cannot, for whatever reason, integrate anywhere else. Be it the stereotyped poor illegal immigrant or the obscenely rich lonely foreign businessman escaping his country. All they want is an urban metro where their foreign accents, scents, mannerisms, cold hard cash etc. meld easily and without question. Heck, get embraced/admired in the name of globalism even.
Meanwhile, the role of those not fitting either category, has been to profit from it. Bilk the rich into buying overpriced and overfitted property, and bilk the government by building affordable but grossly under-built and under-maintained accommodation.
That's just those who happen to live in the same town. For those who don't, it's horror TV this week, a NIMBY shrug the weekend, and forgotten the next.
To return to at least some of London's old glory (we're talking 1990s folks), Brexit must happen sooner and harder rather than softer and later. Brexit will plug the foreign invasion and depending on how hard it is, disgorge some too. Thus clearing the path to rebuild, and making London once again, a magnet city for the right kind of people: it's own.
Which, Mrs. May, thankfully understands. Otherwise it'll be mutiny, especially if she shows any signs to delay or soften Brexit. Next stop, hugs and shakes DUP, then full speed ahead Brexit. Bah.
Meanwhile, the role of those not fitting either category, has been to profit from it. Bilk the rich into buying overpriced and overfitted property, and bilk the government by building affordable but grossly under-built and under-maintained accommodation.
That's just those who happen to live in the same town. For those who don't, it's horror TV this week, a NIMBY shrug the weekend, and forgotten the next.
To return to at least some of London's old glory (we're talking 1990s folks), Brexit must happen sooner and harder rather than softer and later. Brexit will plug the foreign invasion and depending on how hard it is, disgorge some too. Thus clearing the path to rebuild, and making London once again, a magnet city for the right kind of people: it's own.
Which, Mrs. May, thankfully understands. Otherwise it'll be mutiny, especially if she shows any signs to delay or soften Brexit. Next stop, hugs and shakes DUP, then full speed ahead Brexit. Bah.
2
my heart goes out to these families who by no fault of their own lost loved ones, shelter, and any trust that their government was looking out for their welfare.
We feel your plight and are with you.
We feel your plight and are with you.
Ok Ok, all these things are important.
But the key issue is that the fire codes have not caught up with these aluminium combustible panels being attached to the outside of buildings. Sandwich panels, aluminium fails in fires, outside fireproof, inside highly combustible, acts like flue.
Same thing happened in France, Saudi A. Australia, where even the panels were the same.
The reason why it is VITAL to focus on the panels is because they exist all over the world in modern shoddy high rise buildings. There will be more fires until they are all recalled.
But the key issue is that the fire codes have not caught up with these aluminium combustible panels being attached to the outside of buildings. Sandwich panels, aluminium fails in fires, outside fireproof, inside highly combustible, acts like flue.
Same thing happened in France, Saudi A. Australia, where even the panels were the same.
The reason why it is VITAL to focus on the panels is because they exist all over the world in modern shoddy high rise buildings. There will be more fires until they are all recalled.
17
This tragedy is human made. If you apply an insulation coat of an easily burning material to a house with so many stories it's like erecting a pile of firewood.
3
Blair's biggest failure was not repealing the Housing Act of 1985 in full.
The future site of a luxury building and a sound bite for the very concern political figures so upset at such tragedy. What will be done? Would this be equal to the TRIANGLE SHIRT FACTORY? Let us see.
1
We are missing the point.
Why are there people who care so much about money, they allow fellow human beings to live in fire traps or drink poison water?
Just 2 examples of the rampant lack of integrity, & disrespect in this small world.
Why does it take a horror to unite us? ( unfortunately not for long)
Only 1/4 Of our planet is land, & 1/2 of that uninhabitable.
So, we'd better realize we only have each other.
If we can't live together, we die together.
Why should any human being be w/out food, shelter,
healthcare, peace?
Respect,unity, humanity.
Citizens (including you politicos) of the world:
We need each other, stop competing & start cooperating.
Why are there people who care so much about money, they allow fellow human beings to live in fire traps or drink poison water?
Just 2 examples of the rampant lack of integrity, & disrespect in this small world.
Why does it take a horror to unite us? ( unfortunately not for long)
Only 1/4 Of our planet is land, & 1/2 of that uninhabitable.
So, we'd better realize we only have each other.
If we can't live together, we die together.
Why should any human being be w/out food, shelter,
healthcare, peace?
Respect,unity, humanity.
Citizens (including you politicos) of the world:
We need each other, stop competing & start cooperating.
5
Don't trust the system? I'll take socialized healthcare over our for profit programs any day of the week, thank you.
5
Reading about a tragic event like this makes me appreciate how aggressively building standards and safety are pursued here in the US - especially New York. The building where I work in Manhattan has those regular fire drills that everyone is required to participate in. We hear the same spiels time and time again which some people might roll their eyes at. What I realized a long time ago that it isn't even about the building we are in - we are having training ingrained in our subconscious that is to perhaps one day save our very lives in any building in any city. Thank you New York.
53
In a commercial or residential building. Never seen a drill in a residential building!
Quite obviously, the Brits' fire laws are sadly deficient. By way of contrast, when my daughter purchased a 2 living unit 1800's row house in Brooklyn last year, it took forever to obtain approval to rent a unit out from the authorities. The inspections were conducted by the NYC fire department; they do a thorough job of it since they're the guys who risk their lives when they have to rescue tenants trapped in the building. NYC learned to do this over a century ago, via the famous Triangle Shirtwaist fire.
The readers' comments on whether to stay put in one's apartment or try to escape are mostly foolish; in an apartment complex such as this, many residents--the disabled, aged, children, are unable to make any such choice. Fire safety laws and regulations must be designed to protect the most helpless amongst us .
The readers' comments on whether to stay put in one's apartment or try to escape are mostly foolish; in an apartment complex such as this, many residents--the disabled, aged, children, are unable to make any such choice. Fire safety laws and regulations must be designed to protect the most helpless amongst us .
51
The 'stay put' recommendation is if there is a fire in ONE apartment in a building. Our fire door regulations for each apartment are that it must keep out flame and smoke for one hour by which time the Fire Officers are on site. This fire was from newly installed panels on the exterior of the building. Evidently no one had considered flames licking up through a window and catching fire to the first panel and spreading rapidly to the outside of the whole building.
2
There is also the reality that the London fire or the recent attacks in London and Manchester cannot be blamed on Trump.
This is a problem for the New York Times story. So some other story has to be found.
And "Britons don't trust the system" is that other story.
This is a problem for the New York Times story. So some other story has to be found.
And "Britons don't trust the system" is that other story.
7
But this events can be blamed on the ideology that bred trump. Aristocratic comservatism exists to protect the financial interests and societal power of the wealthy and left unaddressed for long enough leads to authoritarianism,ala trump
And there is also the reality that the London fire cannot be blamed on Hillary.
So the grass is not always greener. This would never happen in NYC.
2
You hope...
I had thought that we New Yorkers should elect a Muslim as mayor and then we would be completely safe from terrorist attacks and other dangers. Clearly I was naive (smile).
Not to say that there is anything wrong with having a Muslim mayor but it dismays me that progressives fall so much in love with their own slogans that they fail to do any thinking.
Guys and gals, slogans are NOT a substitute for thought! You DO have to consider the possibility that SOMETIMES the conservatives are right. Not always, but yes, sometimes.
Not to say that there is anything wrong with having a Muslim mayor but it dismays me that progressives fall so much in love with their own slogans that they fail to do any thinking.
Guys and gals, slogans are NOT a substitute for thought! You DO have to consider the possibility that SOMETIMES the conservatives are right. Not always, but yes, sometimes.
3
What has this got to do with a tragic fire made worse by council inaction in the place of complaints and concerns over several years?
14
Aruna, it is a pity that you have chosen this topic on which to get on your soap box. That is because, first, in London maintenance of this building (or indeed public housing in general) does not fall under the mayor's responsibilities. So no, you weren't just naïve, you were ignorant of the facts. Whether conservatives are right or wrong in general is one thing but on this specific issue you are wrong. It is also only alluded to in the article, but actually Kensington & Chelsea - the borough - is run by conservatives (the Conservative party - the clue is in its name), and one element of the growing scandal is that the building is privately managed. Whatever you think is the case here, it is almost definitely the complete opposite.
Second, this is a human tragedy, and your using it in this was is tasteless. Without wishing to drag in unrelated matters, it does unfortunately remind me of President Trump using the occasion of the last terrorist attack in London to attack the mayor. The mayor, and his religion, have no relevance to the fact that a building seems - based on what we read - to have been badly managed, culminating in the senseless death of 12 people.
Second, this is a human tragedy, and your using it in this was is tasteless. Without wishing to drag in unrelated matters, it does unfortunately remind me of President Trump using the occasion of the last terrorist attack in London to attack the mayor. The mayor, and his religion, have no relevance to the fact that a building seems - based on what we read - to have been badly managed, culminating in the senseless death of 12 people.
I was unaware that was a Muslim fire.
Did ISIS use secret Shariah superpowers to start the fire? Did you call Captain America to warn him?
Did ISIS use secret Shariah superpowers to start the fire? Did you call Captain America to warn him?
That should not happen in a developed country. It simply is not something that should happen with modern technology.
10
Happens more than you think. They lose about one per year in Dubai.
Cheap imported electrical wiring / controls, and flammable, insulated exterior panels from you-know-where.
Cheap imported electrical wiring / controls, and flammable, insulated exterior panels from you-know-where.
Fire Codes?
Fire Code Enforcement?
Building Codes?
Building Code Enforcement?
Consumer Protection?
Public Safety?
Apparently, these things do not exist in the United Kingdom.
Is it because these "annoyances" can get in the way of companies making money?
Fire Code Enforcement?
Building Codes?
Building Code Enforcement?
Consumer Protection?
Public Safety?
Apparently, these things do not exist in the United Kingdom.
Is it because these "annoyances" can get in the way of companies making money?
10
Now let's talk about the Ghost Ship fire in Oakland. Codes exist in both countries, but the temptation to ignore codes is always there, especially when, as in these two cases, affordable housing is in short supply. There's also the temptation of bureaucrats and officials to be lazy. In Oakland the fire department apparently ignored the Ghost Ship, and in London it looks as if the borough council gave the management company no oversight. What will help is public pressure, aided by good reporting in the media; that may lead to reform, and possibly prosecution, which tends to get the slackers' attention. It surely seems that prosecution is appropriate in both of these cases.
Firstly, let's thank Heaven that of 120 families caught at 1 a.m. in a flame-engulfed tower, only 12 persons are known to have perished. It could well have been up to 100 entire families.
Regarding prior safety complaints, Councils, Boroughs and Municipalities must accept full responsibility for receiving, and acting on, complaints and warnings: The private sector (in this case, the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant and Management Organization) can never be trusted to monitor its own administration of buildings.
For those who believe 'more government' is bad, try telling that to the survivors.
Regarding prior safety complaints, Councils, Boroughs and Municipalities must accept full responsibility for receiving, and acting on, complaints and warnings: The private sector (in this case, the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant and Management Organization) can never be trusted to monitor its own administration of buildings.
For those who believe 'more government' is bad, try telling that to the survivors.
28
In about 1997 or so the Commonwealth of PA had a fire erupt in the state owned Department of Transportation Building. The damage was severe enough to warrant tearing down the entire structure, built at a cost of $35 million in the mid 1960s without sprinklers. And then replacing it with a new one at a cost of almost $200 million with sprinklers. Across the street a much larger and older building housing the Department of Labor and Industry built in the 1950s was then retrofitted at a cost of about $15 million with new sprinklers throughout the old building. Strangely though, the state legislature reversed legislation that required new residential housing to have sprinklers included. That would have added about $3500 to the cost of a home in the $120,000 price range and builders complained it was too much. Its cheaper just to have firewalls they insisted and just as safe.
7
Austerity cuts have been seriously effecting public housing,both supply and maintainence.
The NHS is being slashed.
Brits are being subjected to the bedroom tax.A senility tax is being proposed.
The rail system has been privatized,leading to huge fare increases.
Emergency storm preparedness has been slashed ,just as there has been severe flooding in recent years.
All this while attracting extreme wealth to London was supposed to help the "economy."
Hopefully.Labor can address these issues.
The NHS is being slashed.
Brits are being subjected to the bedroom tax.A senility tax is being proposed.
The rail system has been privatized,leading to huge fare increases.
Emergency storm preparedness has been slashed ,just as there has been severe flooding in recent years.
All this while attracting extreme wealth to London was supposed to help the "economy."
Hopefully.Labor can address these issues.
21
My god, this sounds very much like what our government is cooking up for us. I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, after all.
This is an article which even the Guardian might find hard to swallow. Yes, the world is not perfect. Yes, it's the rich wot get the pleasure, and the poor wot get the blame… and most of the other bad things the world sometimes creates.
But the fact that there are billionaires living a couple of miles away in Holland Park has, in the last analysis, nothing to do with the tragedy at the Tower; as a former resident, the public housing stock in K&C has always struck me as being pretty well maintained, as you would hope in a rich borough.
There are doubtless many lessons to be learned from this appalling tragedy, some of which may be general and some of which may be specific, but trying to pre-judge the outcome of investigations - and to ascribe blame in advance - seems to have more to do with the advancement of particular political views than the pursuit of greater understanding.
But the fact that there are billionaires living a couple of miles away in Holland Park has, in the last analysis, nothing to do with the tragedy at the Tower; as a former resident, the public housing stock in K&C has always struck me as being pretty well maintained, as you would hope in a rich borough.
There are doubtless many lessons to be learned from this appalling tragedy, some of which may be general and some of which may be specific, but trying to pre-judge the outcome of investigations - and to ascribe blame in advance - seems to have more to do with the advancement of particular political views than the pursuit of greater understanding.
8
Wot. What?
1
Well said. But what's the solution? Top-down government is the style in Britain, and has been for centuries. It only got worse after 1945. Is the Labour Party suddenly going to get religion and end its paternalistic approach to government? Unlikely. And the Tories have been in decline, intellectually and morally, at least since Thatcher left office. Britain remains a highly class-stratified society in which those with the proper education and accent decide things for millions of less well-educated citizens. How does that change? Giving the dependent class more power will simply create new problems. Do you really want to repeat the experience of Britain in the 1970s?
1
"While the average price of a property in Britain is £220,000 ($281,000), in Kensington and Chelsea homes go for £1.4 million (about $1.8 million) on average. The borough has the worst ranking in London for its rent-to-earnings ratio, according to a study by the New Policy Institute.
Yet local authorities still have an obligation to house vulnerable people, even though councils face caps on the amount they can borrow. This leaves local governments severely limited in their capacity to manage their housing stock. As a result, most councils have looked to the private sector for support."
=
This is a screed against rich people buying expensive houses, as though THAT causes fire hazard, and "the obligation to house vulnerable people" prevails over rational economic markets, ie economic stratification
Mr Khan's London makes one doubt if there will always be an England, said mayor has advised we accommodate as the new normal, Muslim killings in the streets, why not high rises fires killings on the sidewalks
Oh and we do not know why the fire started or burned as badly as it did, but we can round up all the usual suspects even so
I blame Thatcher, Reagan, and Cromwell, maybe Thomas Hobbes, maybe the Normans of 1066,
Yet local authorities still have an obligation to house vulnerable people, even though councils face caps on the amount they can borrow. This leaves local governments severely limited in their capacity to manage their housing stock. As a result, most councils have looked to the private sector for support."
=
This is a screed against rich people buying expensive houses, as though THAT causes fire hazard, and "the obligation to house vulnerable people" prevails over rational economic markets, ie economic stratification
Mr Khan's London makes one doubt if there will always be an England, said mayor has advised we accommodate as the new normal, Muslim killings in the streets, why not high rises fires killings on the sidewalks
Oh and we do not know why the fire started or burned as badly as it did, but we can round up all the usual suspects even so
I blame Thatcher, Reagan, and Cromwell, maybe Thomas Hobbes, maybe the Normans of 1066,
4
This is not a screed against rich people buying houses but a realistic comment on the particular problems of housing the vulnerable in a ludicrously expensive area. Mr Khan did not say Muslim killing in the streets was the new normal but that people needed not to be alarmed by the presence of armed police in the streets in response to such events (armed police not being normal in the UK). We do know that residents have raised concerns about fire safety over several years in the face of less severe fires in similar neighbouring buildings and in the face of reports from fire inspectors about inadequacy in those buildings.
1
Whoa. This was really harsh. How about getting rid of titles and stop allowing the tax payers to support the indolent lives of the old British aristocracy? Aren't Brit aristocracy basically on welfare? How many of them have done a day's work in their entire lives? They sit at the top and crush everyone below them. Then they demand special treatment with their arrogance and brutality towards the "dependent class" as you put it. My few interactions with British OBEs and CBEs and whatever else they've concocted, have been quite eye-opening. Really nasty people. I don't understand your ire against people at the bottom of the economic ladder who work but don't make enough money to independently support themselves, yet not a peep about the people at the top who actually don't work at all - in fact they look down on work - yet suck all the money up to their level. A famous person in the US has said that Britain has the most brutal class system in the world. I don't know if that's true but your coomment certainly suggests a lot of blind spots in your perceptions.
"The regeneration of social housing using a mixture of public and private ownership began under Tony Blair’s Labour government and continues today"
It was the 'Right to Buy' scheme, vigorously promoted by the Thatcher government, which allowed 'council housing' tenants to purchase their tax payer owned property at a heavily discounted price, that is the root cause of a lack of Social Housing in the UK today. Blair (and I'm no fan of him or his Tory lite government either), attempted to address the affordable housing shortage by a complex mixture of private/public provision
Local government was forbidden, by law, to re-invest cash generated by the sale of properties into new-build. Once the concept of 'profit' is introduced into the provision of basic human requirements, such as a right to a home, the 'profit' will always come out on top.
It was the 'Right to Buy' scheme, vigorously promoted by the Thatcher government, which allowed 'council housing' tenants to purchase their tax payer owned property at a heavily discounted price, that is the root cause of a lack of Social Housing in the UK today. Blair (and I'm no fan of him or his Tory lite government either), attempted to address the affordable housing shortage by a complex mixture of private/public provision
Local government was forbidden, by law, to re-invest cash generated by the sale of properties into new-build. Once the concept of 'profit' is introduced into the provision of basic human requirements, such as a right to a home, the 'profit' will always come out on top.
19
The simple reason why the US has more fire-awareness than Europe is that more homes are made of wood. You see this in the sheer amount of fire fighters in the US, in both cities and small towns. I've lived in Paris and in Rome. I'd see a firetruck maybe once a year. In NY I see at least one a day.
9
However ... in the U.S. fire departments do much more than fight fires. Americans know that when an emergency occurs, the FD is often the first government agency contacted. They do everything from rescuing cats in trees, to people stuck in elevators, to providing rescue services at traffic accidents, and to acting as "first responders" for medical emergencies. Most municipal departments respond to more non-fire incidents than they to do fires. Many non-U.S. departments are engaged only in fire extinguishment.
26
Don't forget all those volunteers who do it for basically free!
14
Same in Canada, often the Firetruck arrives before the ambulance and they much of the same equipment and training at EMT's.
1
Are there no building codes in London?
In NYC each unit would have sprinklers and a working fire alarm.
I'm shocked!
In NYC each unit would have sprinklers and a working fire alarm.
I'm shocked!
12
The building was built before sprinklers were required. If built today it would have to have sprinklers.
Retrofitting with sprinklers is not mandatory. In most US jurisdictions the renovations performed last year would have triggered the requirement to come fully up to code. Apparently that is optional in the UK.
There are over 4,000 council housing towers like this one without sprinklers in the UK.
Retrofitting with sprinklers is not mandatory. In most US jurisdictions the renovations performed last year would have triggered the requirement to come fully up to code. Apparently that is optional in the UK.
There are over 4,000 council housing towers like this one without sprinklers in the UK.
7
UK Building code (not just London): Yes, there are 'codes' as you put it. These codes have been pretty much left untouched since the 60's and 70's when system buildings, such as Grenfell House, were built. The building construction regulations should be universally applied across the country; however, building inspectors are Public Servants employed by the tax-payer. Cuts in public services has resulted in, amongst other important things, a reduction in their numbers.
9
At the time that this building was built in London, US building codes would have required sprinklers for a Residential building that is this tall and with this many housing units. US codes would also have required two separate 2 hour rated stairwells, not just one.
12
“Once upon a time” there was a governmental model where the “Commons” possessed some right as citizens and in the British case those were rather extensive with regard to housing, safety, health and education. The citizen in turn had responsibilities to the collective when needed and in times of war the ultimate was requested and offered.
In England all that was to change under P.M. Thatcher, the Individual was cut lose and its responsibilities were to itself to prosper or fail as ability and opportunity allowed but transactions would take place in a magical setting called The Market where justice would be achieved. Thatcher issued a rule ‘There is no alternative (TINA)’ and all seemed to understand; except some didn’t as class differentials were well grounded.
That battle is still going on and TINA is understood to be broken but its replacement not yet formed. In the States it unfolded under Reagan in the same time period, and also is in process.
In England all that was to change under P.M. Thatcher, the Individual was cut lose and its responsibilities were to itself to prosper or fail as ability and opportunity allowed but transactions would take place in a magical setting called The Market where justice would be achieved. Thatcher issued a rule ‘There is no alternative (TINA)’ and all seemed to understand; except some didn’t as class differentials were well grounded.
That battle is still going on and TINA is understood to be broken but its replacement not yet formed. In the States it unfolded under Reagan in the same time period, and also is in process.
29
There is no love lost for Maggie T but to claim that the paternalistic streak of government was initiated in 1979 stretches it quite a bit. I was engaged mostly under centre-left government in "re-educating" a public institution to be more attentive to the public and entrenched "daddy knows best" attitudes were very hard to break. It maybe that the idea of an "enabling" rather than "paternalistic" role of the government is (unfortunately) mostly rhetorical fireworks but it does acknowledge that there was and continues to be a yuuuge problem with the paternalism originally embedded in the Euroepan welfare state. Not all roots of evil point back to the lady from Grantham.
Well put wsmrer.
Absolutely and utterly the core issue! Since the Reagan Revolution, i.e., you're on your own buddy, and Thatcher's milk snatching days, the top of the heap has skimmed EVERY SINGLE PENNY off the gains in productivity or profits from every single entity possible. The promise was it would create jobs. But unless you are gold plating toilets or doing doggie shrinkery, you are out of luck because practically every other paid job has been sent to desperately poor Asian or Latino quasi slaves or handed over to robots. "Just get retrained" say the overlords as they send us off to Trump 'University' or other scams as they plot ways to eliminate teachers, doctors and nurses. As this murder is investigated they will all say "we had no idea about x" except they did. The worst part is they did it for the money.
There is another angle to this. This was a public housing tower, or at part of it was. The public housing inhabitants were probably mostly recent arrivals or their descendants living on public assistance. It seems that open border advocates do not consider the tremendous cost to housing and supporting the new arrivals at public expense in one of the most expensive cities in the world. There is obviously finite money available for this never ending task. It does not make it right, but corners were apparently cut to reduce the expense, if only minimally. The open borders advocates should consider, that if the money is not there to support unlimited mass migration, correctly and safely, then they should not advocate for it. It is no different than a responsible couple planning their family size based upon their finances and resources. The vast majority of Western families are much smaller than 100 years ago. Private Western families practice family planning, and likewise, the government should plan their intake flow of immigrants the same way. In hindsight, it is painfully obvious that the immigrants would have been better off alive in their countries of origin than in this tower.
16
Or perhaps it is attitudes like yours that causes governments to clear such people out into social housing and skimp on spending money on them due to political expediency, bad press and increasing nativism among other citizens/voters. We have space in this country - it's just kept from certain 'unpopular' demographics and on top of that house building is itself a tangle of expense, regulation, planning, local protests ("we don't want to lose that field!" - NIMBYs) all done for profit.
19
I work in property maintenance for tenant-managed towers. Because of social value requirements for public contracts, I interact with many residents as part of the classes my business puts on. You would be surprised at the affluence of many residents.
Leaseholders and owners are sometimes from immigrant backgrounds but there are many people for whom a small flat is the first step on a complicated road toward having a foothold to live and work in one of the most expensive places in the world. The number of inhabitants in these buildings who are poor native Whites is very large. When I conducted a social value class in 2016, we found the majority of people had come to the UK originally on student visas and a small number were on entrepreneurship visas. These are not poor people, they are simply unable to afford more in the high cost area in which they want to live. It wasn't open borders or unlimited mass migration that got them to that point, it was by and large selective intake.
Leaseholders and owners are sometimes from immigrant backgrounds but there are many people for whom a small flat is the first step on a complicated road toward having a foothold to live and work in one of the most expensive places in the world. The number of inhabitants in these buildings who are poor native Whites is very large. When I conducted a social value class in 2016, we found the majority of people had come to the UK originally on student visas and a small number were on entrepreneurship visas. These are not poor people, they are simply unable to afford more in the high cost area in which they want to live. It wasn't open borders or unlimited mass migration that got them to that point, it was by and large selective intake.
47
Take a look at a list of world nations ranked by population density. There are only two EU states with population densities higher than that of the U.K. - not surprisingly, they are the Netherlands and Belgium.
And keep in mind that such a list will be showing national figures. I expect that most people coming to the U.K. will want to be in southeast England and that the region almost certainly has a population density exceeding the national figure. It is simply not possible for an island nation to accommodate unlimited inward migration.
And keep in mind that such a list will be showing national figures. I expect that most people coming to the U.K. will want to be in southeast England and that the region almost certainly has a population density exceeding the national figure. It is simply not possible for an island nation to accommodate unlimited inward migration.
7
This was no accident - when it all sorts out it will be found that the building was rendered unsafe to save money. Much like the Flint fiasco in the US, the war on the poor rages everywhere.
53
HBrooke has provided an insightful & detailed report on the frankly terrifying implications of insufficiently responsive agencies whose duty it is to look after the safety of leased premises, whether residential or commercial. It would be wrong to imagine the problem described applies only to the UK, or to social housing. Anyone who hires a property management company instead of assuming personal responsibility for meeting all fire code statutes (as well as making further reasonable provisions to ensure optimal security for human occupancy) has to exercise maximum diligence in choosing genuinely competent & responsible agents. Property ownership -- anywhere on earth --imposes obligations to society as a whole that go far beyond paying off a mortgage or being timely with taxes. I would only add that I do not agree with the statement that "English... local government is hard to navigate... opportunities... to engage meaningfully with decision makers are not plentiful." Living as an American for a number of years in Camden & then RBK&C, I found it extremely easy to "engage meaningfully" with the respective Council authorities: each London borough's calendar is packed with open events & the council members who sponsor them are genuinely welcoming & attentive. Blogging is helpful, but there is no substitute for direct face-to-face interaction (as Jeremy Corbyn has proven again in 2017). Whether in London or NYC, get involved locally, put in the time, to prevent the next tragedy.
15
I am put in mind of my US university dormitory several decades ago when weekly maid service also served the purpose of fire and safety inspection to say nothing of the continuous presence of resident advisors on each floor.
1
"Anyone who hires a property management company instead of assuming personal responsibility for meeting all fire code statutes (as well as making further reasonable provisions to ensure optimal security for human occupancy) has to exercise maximum diligence in choosing genuinely competent & responsible agents. "
Grenfell Tower is owned by Kensington and Chelsea council and is managed by its housing association, Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation.
I'm not sure where the "personal responsibility" comes in in this context. Are you suggesting that the individual tenants had "personal responsibility" to meet fire code standards in the building? The owner of the builiding
"Blogging is helpful, but there is no substitute for direct face-to-face interaction "
The Grenfell Action Group did more than blog. Unlike your experience, their warnings to the council fell on deaf ears.
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/grenfell-tower-fire/
Grenfell Tower is owned by Kensington and Chelsea council and is managed by its housing association, Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation.
I'm not sure where the "personal responsibility" comes in in this context. Are you suggesting that the individual tenants had "personal responsibility" to meet fire code standards in the building? The owner of the builiding
"Blogging is helpful, but there is no substitute for direct face-to-face interaction "
The Grenfell Action Group did more than blog. Unlike your experience, their warnings to the council fell on deaf ears.
https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2017/06/14/grenfell-tower-fire/
1
Were we to go back to the founding of the U.S., we would find no one recommending that any level of government should be managing places where people live. The Londoners are wise to have learned never to trust government. (A revolution of some sort is the next eventual step, but of course all Brits are conveniently disarmed.)
It is simply an unavoidable truth that bureaucracy responds at a snail's pace to fire safety problems or anything else. You HAVE to have private ownership running such things because issues come up a hundred times faster that any well-meaning organizing working through political consensus.
Didn't we learn anything from the collapse of the Soviet Union?
It is simply an unavoidable truth that bureaucracy responds at a snail's pace to fire safety problems or anything else. You HAVE to have private ownership running such things because issues come up a hundred times faster that any well-meaning organizing working through political consensus.
Didn't we learn anything from the collapse of the Soviet Union?
5
Having lived and practiced law for about 50 years in the States, my personal observations are that slumlords are generally private property owners. The writer may well be correct when speaking of the gentry living in gated communities or select suburbs but it is dedicated civil servants and the local courts in less posh areas who contain the unsafe practices of private landlords who are more focused on their profits than their tenants comfort or safety.
39
Britain did indeed have completely private property ownership for hundreds of years - we called it 'the feudal system', and oddly enough it wasn't wildly popular. For some reason the peasants just didn't appreciate its convenience.
If anything what this shows is that more direct public ownership is needed. The property management company was private, and was ultimately not accountable to the residents. It therefore ignored their concerns - it knew the council would pay it either way, so why shell out for all that pesky fire safety equipment?
If anything what this shows is that more direct public ownership is needed. The property management company was private, and was ultimately not accountable to the residents. It therefore ignored their concerns - it knew the council would pay it either way, so why shell out for all that pesky fire safety equipment?
31
William:
While it is true that "Britain did indeed have completely private property ownership for hundreds of years", it is more complicated than that.
My fifteenth great grandfather was a Baron who owned approximately 20,000 prime agricultural acres and two manor halls as well as a London town house convenient to Parliament, where he sat. Half of his acreage was a grant of former church lands from Henry VIII.
His tenants paid rents with agricultural produce.
My ancestor was required to command and fund a company of soldiers. Several of his descendants died in combat. Others were required to serve as governors of overseas provinces, and requests for transfer were denied, even in case of sickness.
My ancestor was required to host the Royal Court for several days at a time, and he could do that in his dining hall with three hundred seats and a kitchen large enough to support that crowd.
That is, property ownership had the compensatory burden of national service.
While it is true that "Britain did indeed have completely private property ownership for hundreds of years", it is more complicated than that.
My fifteenth great grandfather was a Baron who owned approximately 20,000 prime agricultural acres and two manor halls as well as a London town house convenient to Parliament, where he sat. Half of his acreage was a grant of former church lands from Henry VIII.
His tenants paid rents with agricultural produce.
My ancestor was required to command and fund a company of soldiers. Several of his descendants died in combat. Others were required to serve as governors of overseas provinces, and requests for transfer were denied, even in case of sickness.
My ancestor was required to host the Royal Court for several days at a time, and he could do that in his dining hall with three hundred seats and a kitchen large enough to support that crowd.
That is, property ownership had the compensatory burden of national service.
8
This is the type of disaster that the EU regularly keeps members from committing. Because doing it dangerously is cheaper. This is an example of post Brexit horrors to come - sort of the Flint water system going national without the EPA.
10
I may be wrong, but I doubt fire regulations are legislated in Brussels. The EU is responsible for trade, consumer rights and the environment. That said, it is true that the EU countries are consulting heavily and watch what neighbor countries are doing. Since the 1980s German fire codes forbid inflammable materials on the outside of a high-rise building. The UK is lax in this respect.
10
I wish to remain the EU but this isn't a Brexit thing. Block was built in 70's, planning was done while in the EU, refurb started when we were in the EU. The vast majority of its existence and history has been while we're in the EU (or EEC).
7
OR it is simply a fatal reminder that government doing everything is NEVER the answer. Had Flint's water system been a private operation there would have been a fast reaction to the first sign of trouble.
This is another reason the private ownership of things made the United State the world's top magnet for creative people and immigrants for two centuries.
This is another reason the private ownership of things made the United State the world's top magnet for creative people and immigrants for two centuries.
2
If the majority of the Board is appointed by residents (8 of 15 this article says) then how can they be deprived of information? Maybe they are, but it needs some explanation in the story how the Board itself keeps itself uninformed.
9
The board doesn't oversee just one building and the resident representatives may not actually be particularly representative of the tenants.
5
To Mark: Have you ever lived in a community with an HOA / Board? Often, the wrong people get on the Board and so-called "represent" the community to the residents' detriment . You don't really want 5 people making serious financial or safety decisions for a townhouse community without oversight. I have an accounting and construction background and have found that Board members often don't have either experience to make good decisions. Or, they received favored personal work on their places while approving these contractors for big jobs that cost all the homeowners' money. I don't know enough to say anything about this fire and the residents on the Board. I just feel sorry for all the families and hope this never happens to them ever again.
You can rehab a building in Chicago without sprinklers even though we have a strong fire code. You'd have to literally tear apart an older building to do it and even pricy buildings don't.
What we do have here is code which requires automatic door closers - which I understand this building did not and is very inexpensive to install.
You cannot reach upper floors with any traditional fire equipment. Thorough fire inspections must take place in any buildings over 3 stories to determine if the stairs, fire alarms, and materials comply.
What we do have here is code which requires automatic door closers - which I understand this building did not and is very inexpensive to install.
You cannot reach upper floors with any traditional fire equipment. Thorough fire inspections must take place in any buildings over 3 stories to determine if the stairs, fire alarms, and materials comply.
14
Any material destined for use in buildings in the US has something called the "flame spread rating", established by testing at an independent laboratory. I find it hard to believe that the UK would not have a corresponding measure of flammability that could be specified by the design professionals involved. The investigation of this horror will need to be independent and ruthless, with blame apportioned where it belongs.
14
"You'd have to literally tear apart an older building to do it and even pricy buildings don't."
Some reports are that they did tear the building apart in the rehab, for wiring and air ducts and plumbing, and in doing so created part of this problem by cutting holes through the fire barriers that were supposed to contain fires to within single units.
Some reports are that they did tear the building apart in the rehab, for wiring and air ducts and plumbing, and in doing so created part of this problem by cutting holes through the fire barriers that were supposed to contain fires to within single units.
15
My understanding is that self-closing doors had been installed or were in the process of being installed, though an official from the KCTMO interviewed by the BBC yesterday queried whether some residents had perhaps disabled some of them.
While fire inspections must take place regularly, a reporter (Luke Barratt) who had covered the renovations to the building last year for Inside Housing reports that the building had not been assessed for 18 months, before the renovations had been completed, and that fire safety barriers (in pipes etc) had to be removed and reinstalled during refurbishment. So there is a question of accountability, procedure and oversight here. There is evidence that fire (and other housing) safety concerns have not been taken seriously enough by local or national government, for instance when parliament rejected a bill put forward last year to ensure that all housing stalk is "fit for human habitation" and when ex-London mayor Boris Johnson (now Foreign Secretary) told a fire safety panel to "get stuffed" in 2014.
Other concerns have been raised, about the possibility of non-fire retardant insulation being used underneath the external cladding as well as the installation of some water heat exchangers being installed outside of units above fuse boxes. There have also been reports of ongoing power surges in the building. No doubt specific clarifications will be made over the coming days and weeks.
While fire inspections must take place regularly, a reporter (Luke Barratt) who had covered the renovations to the building last year for Inside Housing reports that the building had not been assessed for 18 months, before the renovations had been completed, and that fire safety barriers (in pipes etc) had to be removed and reinstalled during refurbishment. So there is a question of accountability, procedure and oversight here. There is evidence that fire (and other housing) safety concerns have not been taken seriously enough by local or national government, for instance when parliament rejected a bill put forward last year to ensure that all housing stalk is "fit for human habitation" and when ex-London mayor Boris Johnson (now Foreign Secretary) told a fire safety panel to "get stuffed" in 2014.
Other concerns have been raised, about the possibility of non-fire retardant insulation being used underneath the external cladding as well as the installation of some water heat exchangers being installed outside of units above fuse boxes. There have also been reports of ongoing power surges in the building. No doubt specific clarifications will be made over the coming days and weeks.
4
I was shocked to learn sprinklers are not required in the UK. Here in California you couldn't remodel a building like that without putting in sprinklers. Actually, it would have been built with them.
35
Apparently sprinklers are now required but not when the building in question was constructed.
2
Sprinklers are required in the UK. They were not required in the 1970's when Grenfell Tower was built.
1
But in California the risk of fire caused by earthquake is a far more clear and present danger than seismically stable London (or even NY)
Either there was no proper fire code, or it was not enforced, or both. Grenfell Tower was refurbished in recent years with safety not uppermost in mind. A cosmetic plastic cladding was fitted to the exterior, so that it would not be an eyesore to its wealthier neighbors.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/cladding-added-to-grenfell-tower-to-improv...
Also, it's hard to know how much difference it would have made on the repsonse time, but London's previous Mayor, conservative Boris Johnson, closed 10 fire stations around the city in 2014 as a cost-cutting measure.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/boris-johnson-slashed-londons-fire-service...
As usual under the austerity regime favored by conservatives on either side of the Atlantic, the people burdened by cuts are the ones least able to handle the; it's austerity for thee but not for me.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/cladding-added-to-grenfell-tower-to-improv...
Also, it's hard to know how much difference it would have made on the repsonse time, but London's previous Mayor, conservative Boris Johnson, closed 10 fire stations around the city in 2014 as a cost-cutting measure.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/14/boris-johnson-slashed-londons-fire-service...
As usual under the austerity regime favored by conservatives on either side of the Atlantic, the people burdened by cuts are the ones least able to handle the; it's austerity for thee but not for me.
98
The cladding actually looked pretty good in comparison, and that is nice for the one living there too. It also was insulation, that cut heating and cooling costs, which is a "green" good and saves money that ultimately is charged to residents.
The cladding itself is reported to have been fire resistant. However, the attachment of the cladding to the building was done with a system that was unsafe, with flammable material and leaving a vent space to communicate heat and flame up inside the cladding. So it was method and materials of attachment by the people who installed it, rather than the idea of cladding itself.
Or so reports say that I've read. They could have been excuses, but only more investigation will make that clear.
The cladding itself is reported to have been fire resistant. However, the attachment of the cladding to the building was done with a system that was unsafe, with flammable material and leaving a vent space to communicate heat and flame up inside the cladding. So it was method and materials of attachment by the people who installed it, rather than the idea of cladding itself.
Or so reports say that I've read. They could have been excuses, but only more investigation will make that clear.
12
I want to commend you for your selflessness. I can only guess that you are donating a very large proportion of your personal income to help those who are struggling with austerity.
Because if you were not doing so.... austerity... for... thee... but... not... for... me...
Because if you were not doing so.... austerity... for... thee... but... not... for... me...
The Cladding was aluminium, not plastic.
As some politicians rage against "regulations that strangle business" we see the real life reason why we need governments that provide and enforce rules and regulation that keep us safe. Without those rules we are at the mercy of those who will cut corners. Would those who knew that this building did not have proper fire alarms, did not have sprinklers, and was recently clad in highly flammable plastic allow their loved ones to live there or even spend one night?
I doubt it. The Triangle Shirtwaist fire prompted change in the last century. I only hope that the horrible loss of life in this fire will lead to safer buildings in the UK and around the world.
It is past time for our democratic governments to protect citizens from these preventable disasters. The Flint water disaster is just one other example of these preventable disasters.
I doubt it. The Triangle Shirtwaist fire prompted change in the last century. I only hope that the horrible loss of life in this fire will lead to safer buildings in the UK and around the world.
It is past time for our democratic governments to protect citizens from these preventable disasters. The Flint water disaster is just one other example of these preventable disasters.
141
I am puzzled. You suggest more government is the solution when this London fire occurs in a government owned and controlled building?
The problem with the government subsidized housing is that residents are trapped by the subsidies. In the private housing market, if a resident sees the building as lacking in safety, the resident is free to move elsewhere. So, private landlords have incentive to satisfy the safety concerns of residents (as well as their economic self interest in avoiding fire losses).
Public bureaucrats have no economic stake in the buildings they control. Instead they feel political pressures to satisfy competing constituencies. Catastrophic fires are uncommon; money saved in construction costs are a certainty .Small wonder that safety might be compromised in order to stretch the public dollar.
The problem with the government subsidized housing is that residents are trapped by the subsidies. In the private housing market, if a resident sees the building as lacking in safety, the resident is free to move elsewhere. So, private landlords have incentive to satisfy the safety concerns of residents (as well as their economic self interest in avoiding fire losses).
Public bureaucrats have no economic stake in the buildings they control. Instead they feel political pressures to satisfy competing constituencies. Catastrophic fires are uncommon; money saved in construction costs are a certainty .Small wonder that safety might be compromised in order to stretch the public dollar.
2
Liza,
Fire safety regulations are a far, far ... far ... cry from the regulations that strangle businesses. The Ghostship fire in your own back yard was far costlier in terms of human life, and did not stem from a lack of government regulation. Rather, it arose from the greed of grubby little nobodies who fostered that most liberal of all values: you can't tell me what to do! The root of all evil is human greed, and human greed has no political allegiance or identity.
Fire safety regulations are a far, far ... far ... cry from the regulations that strangle businesses. The Ghostship fire in your own back yard was far costlier in terms of human life, and did not stem from a lack of government regulation. Rather, it arose from the greed of grubby little nobodies who fostered that most liberal of all values: you can't tell me what to do! The root of all evil is human greed, and human greed has no political allegiance or identity.
North Kensington could very well have been situated in a third world country. Some residents of this building stated that the building had no central fire alarm system (or it failed) since they never heard a fire alarm, the residents also claimed that there was no central sprinkler system or it failed. This is simply unbelievable for a city like London..It looks like the residents had complained about poor fire safety in 2013. This is a 23 story building constructed in 1974, not in the past century and the building was renovated in 2015-16. It looks like fire safety was not even considered during the renovation. What a shame!, now 12 people dead and several hospitalized.
43
All of the tall buildings in the world will eventually age to the point where they are no longer sustainable and should be pulled down. Can anyone imagine that will actually occur before catastrophe strikes?
6
Mike Murray MD,
Your post is very ill-considered. The problem here was not age, per se, it was a lack of concern for anything beyond the superficial. The building was renovated under the supervision of an architecture firm just 3-4 years ago. Go try to visit their website: https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/grenfell-tower-residents-had-pr.... Far older buildings, under responsible stewardship, are not just viable, they are thriving. If the medical profession insists on extending human longevity for their own financial gain, then the future of humanity is not to build out ... it is to build up.
Your post is very ill-considered. The problem here was not age, per se, it was a lack of concern for anything beyond the superficial. The building was renovated under the supervision of an architecture firm just 3-4 years ago. Go try to visit their website: https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/grenfell-tower-residents-had-pr.... Far older buildings, under responsible stewardship, are not just viable, they are thriving. If the medical profession insists on extending human longevity for their own financial gain, then the future of humanity is not to build out ... it is to build up.
12
Dr.Murray,
If building up is the choice then it is worth noting that the London fire system lacks the equipment to fight external fires above the 10th floor! That's not very far "up"!
If building up is the choice then it is worth noting that the London fire system lacks the equipment to fight external fires above the 10th floor! That's not very far "up"!
I wonder how much it would cost to provide 7 billion people with a good home and excellent fire protection.
In 2050 I can wonder how much it would cost to provide 10 billion people with a good home and excellent fire protection,
In 2050 I can wonder how much it would cost to provide 10 billion people with a good home and excellent fire protection,
17
My guess is something less than the money we have spent on 'defense' in the last 10 years.
1
The "end of the stay put citizen" indeed. Watch this death toll rise including fallout for the retrieval teams as they discover charred bodies everywhere. Some of them go on to commit suicide from the horror. People did not know to cover their faces with wet towels and head for the (internal) stairs. There were no external fire escapes which must immediately be built on the surrounding housing towers. The internal fire doors on the stairwell didn't work properly. No sprinklers. Fire hoses only reaching fourth or fifth floor, cheap external apparently highly flammable cladding from China. Apparently tens of millions were recently spent on prettying-up the building instead of making it safer. Authorities appear to no longer have a clue.
72
@anyone
There were significant problems with what was done, but the biggest problem is the fire code, which politicians of the 'regulation hurts business' flavor were unwilling to update despite earlier fires that showed the prospect of a significant fire and concomitant death toll.
External fire stairs would have been useless in this fire, which burned up the outside.
I am not familiar with the floor layout of the Grenfell Tower, so I do not know if it was constructed to have fire doors. A past blog entry on their fire concerns indicated that there was a bottom to top chimney problem in the making because of how the stairs were constructed.
Sprinklers are too expensive to retrofit to many older buildings. Staying in place works so long as the fire barrier lasts; happens often in big cities.
Standpipes (those fire hose connections you see outside high rises and many other buildings) are used in many cities (including this London building) to take water from the fire pumpers to all the floors, with the firefighters hooking up below the fire to fight up to the next floor.
You are wrong to say that the money spent was to pretty-up the building, the upgrade was to provide much better insulation for energy saving, and at the same time give individual units control over their heating.
Let them get the facts, then update the fire code and implement the appropriate remediation, rather than deciding what changes should be made by guesswork.
There were significant problems with what was done, but the biggest problem is the fire code, which politicians of the 'regulation hurts business' flavor were unwilling to update despite earlier fires that showed the prospect of a significant fire and concomitant death toll.
External fire stairs would have been useless in this fire, which burned up the outside.
I am not familiar with the floor layout of the Grenfell Tower, so I do not know if it was constructed to have fire doors. A past blog entry on their fire concerns indicated that there was a bottom to top chimney problem in the making because of how the stairs were constructed.
Sprinklers are too expensive to retrofit to many older buildings. Staying in place works so long as the fire barrier lasts; happens often in big cities.
Standpipes (those fire hose connections you see outside high rises and many other buildings) are used in many cities (including this London building) to take water from the fire pumpers to all the floors, with the firefighters hooking up below the fire to fight up to the next floor.
You are wrong to say that the money spent was to pretty-up the building, the upgrade was to provide much better insulation for energy saving, and at the same time give individual units control over their heating.
Let them get the facts, then update the fire code and implement the appropriate remediation, rather than deciding what changes should be made by guesswork.
13
"You are wrong to say that the money spent was to pretty-up the building"
Nonsense. That was a main priority: to reduce the impact of a supposed concrete eyesore on the millionaires living in neighbouring conservation areas.
Nonsense. That was a main priority: to reduce the impact of a supposed concrete eyesore on the millionaires living in neighbouring conservation areas.
11
anyone -- "The "end of the stay put citizen" indeed."
The fire was below them. It filled the stairwells with thick smoke, that a person could not survive without the respirators that firefighters use. Early on, they would have been going down into the fire, until it came to them.
It is not just the end of stay in place, rather recognition that current policy leaves no good answers. It was two choices, both impossible. Someone will need to come up with a third choice, either a new way down that is smoke free and goes around any fires, or a way to go up and get off the top.
The fire was below them. It filled the stairwells with thick smoke, that a person could not survive without the respirators that firefighters use. Early on, they would have been going down into the fire, until it came to them.
It is not just the end of stay in place, rather recognition that current policy leaves no good answers. It was two choices, both impossible. Someone will need to come up with a third choice, either a new way down that is smoke free and goes around any fires, or a way to go up and get off the top.
Flammable cladding and neglected firestops set this trap.
Shame on the authorities and contractors who screwed up.
Shame on the authorities and contractors who screwed up.
41
Shame on the architects, for valuing the superficial over the substantive. Shame on us for setting a stage that rewards those values.
A terrible tragedy.
The recent remodel of the building is yet another reason of why to distrust government. The remodel clad the concrete building with insulation which burned strongly. It will take further research if the exterior burning so strongly is how the fire spread from floor to floor. Regardless, the decision to clad the building with flammable insulation instead of, or in addition to, improving fire safety and install sprinklers was remarkably arrogant. Somehow basic safety was not the highest priority.
The recent remodel of the building is yet another reason of why to distrust government. The remodel clad the concrete building with insulation which burned strongly. It will take further research if the exterior burning so strongly is how the fire spread from floor to floor. Regardless, the decision to clad the building with flammable insulation instead of, or in addition to, improving fire safety and install sprinklers was remarkably arrogant. Somehow basic safety was not the highest priority.
23
Money, probably, was the highest priority. (Isn't it always?)
The Fire Protection Association in the UK (www.thefpa.co.uk) has said for years that its members believed the code needed to be updated.
A good idea would have been for the FPA to get together with one or more media companies to conduct a little demonstration of what happens with the problematical cladding. I suspect the production cost would have been a lot less than one hour of some less significant reality show, and the benefit - priceless.
A good idea would have been for the FPA to get together with one or more media companies to conduct a little demonstration of what happens with the problematical cladding. I suspect the production cost would have been a lot less than one hour of some less significant reality show, and the benefit - priceless.
10
I've seen similar videos, made for training purposes, to inform firemen of what to expect to see and deal with.
It is quite likely that something like this already exists in firefighting training materials. Much like it does.
If not, they needed it for that purpose too.
It is quite likely that something like this already exists in firefighting training materials. Much like it does.
If not, they needed it for that purpose too.
No offense but Ms. Brooke sounds like she's using public tragedy to make a political dig. British politics and sensibilities are foreign to me. I'll concede that point right off the bat. Urban politics however are essentially universal. You've never lived in a death trap for the sake of cheap rent and a decent neighborhood before? You're obviously relatively posh. Bad landlords and asymmetric information are par for the course in most urban landscapes. I don't care whether the housing is public or not. Public is generally a shade better because the owners at least have to pretend to care. Your alternative is to move someplace else. That's what gentrification does. Certain people are forced away from desirable areas. The average home price in the United States is around $200 thousand. The average home price in Manhattan is easily $2 million. Try even finding a publicly owned rental on the island. You'd better be good friends with the guest of honor at somebody's wake. Meanwhile, Ms. Brooke here is using these people's ashes for fertilizer while the bodies are still warm. Poor taste in my opinion.
It sounds like the building contractor may be at fault? The cladding wasn't supposed to be flammable. Hence the instructions to stay put. (Reasonable instructions if the fire is contained)
11
I challenge the notion that "shelter in place" is a safe option in a building that does not have sprinklers. Even with sprinklers, the shelter in place concept is debatable. While physical barriers and sprinkler systems may limit flame spread, they do little or nothing to prevent heat and smoke from migrating to other parts of the structure. Shelter in place is an option only when it is very probable that the fire and products of combustion (heat, smoke, fire gases) can be minimized and contained. That is not an option in a high-rise building that does not have a working automatic sprinkler system.
3
Your title is misleading "The end of the stay-put citizen" I thought it was going to be about the early reports from the residents to "stay-put" during the earliest stages of the fire. Everyone should already have a pre-determined escape plan for their home, apartment building, in fact every public space you enter. When a fire happens you may only have minutes to put that plan into action. Don't panic. Ut DO get out.
12
I so wish ALL highrises would have at a minimum ropes on eyelets in place to drop down out a window if a fire. These would be even better:
https://skysaver.com/
https://skysaver.com/
9
I thought about that, but a 24 floor drop on a rope is not something most people could do. It would require some complex rigging to make it possible, and too many people would not get it right in an emergency, just in the nature of things.
I had an office in an 8-story building that did something like this, rope ladders as emergency exits by some key windows, but they let down onto a parking structure alongside, not all the say down for 8 stories. We were pretty doubtful even about that.
I had an office in an 8-story building that did something like this, rope ladders as emergency exits by some key windows, but they let down onto a parking structure alongside, not all the say down for 8 stories. We were pretty doubtful even about that.
4
Thought this happened only in Ethiopia.
7
Sadly, I have long resigned myself to what I call the "Titanic" theory of politics in the US, and perhaps it is true in the UK. Until an undeniable disaster happens, there are simply not enough people on the side of change to challenge the status quo. It took the gradual unraveling of the Iraq war and the incompetence of Hurricane Katrina to finally wake to the fact that the Bush administration was toxic. I hear that in NYC, the subway/rail system needs massive work, but it will likely be only some major episode (like one of the 100 year old tunnels failing) before enough people will demand some serious rethinking of Gotham's transit infrastructure.
This is a sad but predictable situation. The modern citizen is often more in denial than their politicians, it seems to me.
But an event like this terrible and senseless fire might be one of those Titanic moments.
Nothing is unsinkable, everything requires constant care. And for much of the stuff of modern life, especially in our cities, that care requires the scale of strong government action. Unfortunately, unless it comes to cutting taxes and services, that maxim is the bane of both US and UK conservatives, who are the equivalent of arrogant captains of what could be a great ship, if only they were not so beholden to stupid ideas.
This is a sad but predictable situation. The modern citizen is often more in denial than their politicians, it seems to me.
But an event like this terrible and senseless fire might be one of those Titanic moments.
Nothing is unsinkable, everything requires constant care. And for much of the stuff of modern life, especially in our cities, that care requires the scale of strong government action. Unfortunately, unless it comes to cutting taxes and services, that maxim is the bane of both US and UK conservatives, who are the equivalent of arrogant captains of what could be a great ship, if only they were not so beholden to stupid ideas.
62
I couldn't agree more with Ms Brooke's implicit characterization of Brits as disempowered ("Truly empowered individuals don't have to wait passively to receive what information officials choose to give them"). In my lived experience, the same could be said of Kiwis, Aussies, and Portuguese. The U.S. may be unique in the ready access to information from regulatory bodies and local governmnent that is take for granted by most Americans. Lord knows, we have our problems, but having paternalistic local government is not one of them.
7
The Titanic comparison is a good one.
It brings to mind a lesson learned during WW2 for damage control. Older ships had holes that defeated their designed flooding barriers. The holes had been cut over the years for various "good reasons" of wiring and piping, by people who were thinking of other needs, not damage control.
It brings to mind a lesson learned during WW2 for damage control. Older ships had holes that defeated their designed flooding barriers. The holes had been cut over the years for various "good reasons" of wiring and piping, by people who were thinking of other needs, not damage control.
5
Hit the nail on the head. Upgrade/refurb/maintenance by a Council is subject to "spending commitments" and Councils are not known for speedy delivery and 'sparing no expense'. In both cases the reverse is true and councils are unafraid of delaying regular maintenance/inspection, cutting corners in funding or kicking a project into the long grass due to a somewhat blasé attitude of 'it'll never happen and we it's not urgent this financial year'.
2
I can only assume that there was no sprinkler system in this modern high rise apartment building, and that it can't have been built to "fire safe" standards. That is a complete scandal. How is such construction allowed in London? It most certainly is not allowed in New York, which learned the hard lessons in many deadly fires in the last century.
7
The building was built early 70's but recently had work done so looked modern. No sprinklers still though..obviously. And sounds like the new facade which made it look more modern was what burned so terribly.
There is also the issue of building regulations. The building underwent a £9m refurbishment which included adding insulation and cladding to the outside of the building. Eyewitnesses report that the fire raced up the cladding causing the entire building to be engulfed with fire.
The building regulations are inadequate, and following a fire in another building these were supposed to be reviewed. Theresa May's new chief of staff Gavin Barwell failed to have this review conducted when he was housing minister and is now facing questions about that.
It is shocking to me that in a city like London there aren't strict regulations like there are in New York. The fire should never have happened on the scale it did. Why weren't these regulations reviewed? The answer has to be either brainless complacency or callous indifference to life.
The building regulations are inadequate, and following a fire in another building these were supposed to be reviewed. Theresa May's new chief of staff Gavin Barwell failed to have this review conducted when he was housing minister and is now facing questions about that.
It is shocking to me that in a city like London there aren't strict regulations like there are in New York. The fire should never have happened on the scale it did. Why weren't these regulations reviewed? The answer has to be either brainless complacency or callous indifference to life.
18
I concur with most of what you say, in particular as regards the fire standards, which have been left untouched by those who believe the market regulates itself better than government does, or at least by those who use that excuse to spare builders expensive requirements.
Don't assume New York is a model. I remember a lot of cranes falling over in NYC not very long ago.
Similarly, the 9/11 airplane hijackings were possible because Congress, at the request of airlines (making campaign contributions) refused (for several years running) to allow the FAA to mandate hardened cockpit doors.
Don't assume New York is a model. I remember a lot of cranes falling over in NYC not very long ago.
Similarly, the 9/11 airplane hijackings were possible because Congress, at the request of airlines (making campaign contributions) refused (for several years running) to allow the FAA to mandate hardened cockpit doors.
8
Ken Belcher -- "to allow the FAA to mandate hardened cockpit doors"
Those are a good safety feature.
They also caused the loss of at least one airplane, when it was used by a suicidal co-pilot to keep the pilot out of the cockpit until the plane went down. (Germanwings Flight 9525) Nobody saw that problem coming.
Those are a good safety feature.
They also caused the loss of at least one airplane, when it was used by a suicidal co-pilot to keep the pilot out of the cockpit until the plane went down. (Germanwings Flight 9525) Nobody saw that problem coming.
5
Hey- if you can't pay for it, you don't deserve it. And sometimes, IT means life. Regulations are for the little people, and only when they don't impede profit. I expected better in London. Please don't go down the despicable Trump/GOP trail. You're better than that. Seriously.
43
Republicans are following down the British trail of Conservative thinking. They went first, Thatcher before Reagan.
7
Unfortunately the writer doesn't examine what "stay put" actually means and why such a policy might or might not exist. In some high-rise fires staying in your unit and waiting for help is what you should be doing, what will save your life; if a fire can be contained to one or several units, and if smoke might be filling the stairwells you would be using for escape, you would be safer staying put. But if the fire cannot be contained, and there is a safe stairwell you can use to exit, you should not stay put. The problem is that residents don't have enough information to know whether it is safer to stay put, or safer to try to escape. This is the tragedy. Compounded by what is apparently a lack of a sprinkler system in this building, and a shoddy building renovation which caused the whole side of the building to ignite.
27
This is an unbelievable scenario. A 24-story, modern, high-rise building in an industrialized nation ablaze as if it were made of sticks and thatch.
How many fire and life safety codes needed to be ignored to produce such a blaze? All Britons, of all classes, should be ashamed of this.
How many fire and life safety codes needed to be ignored to produce such a blaze? All Britons, of all classes, should be ashamed of this.
63
i am so happy the majority of occupants had the sense to not listen to any authority telling them to remain in place. what official hubris. also it saddens me to see ol"blighty in every bit as dire a situation as we find ourselves in across the pond. well the british are known for thier collective stoicism. good luck England with your new leader. Ours here is a total bust.
14
Sadly we don't have a new leader, we have the same one we had before and the same political party we have had since 2010.
Sorry, this is just bad jouralism. You are jumping the gun and coming to conclusions even before we know what the real reason is. It is high time you stop talking down UK as a way to make US look better.
2
The US is currently a mess, thanks to our Electoral College and the moronic president it brought us, but applying flammable "insulation and cladding" makes no sense anywhere.
I can hardly believe the outside of the building was made of plastic.
7
And the insulation was flammable. So, the cladding covered flammable insulation; what could go wrong? Well, a whole building could end up in flames via the plastic covered flammable insulation. Amazing that any people got out if they were not on ground floors. No operating fire alarm system, or operative sprinklers. Could this have to do with how Council Houses are constructed and maintained? These facilities are for the poorest citizens; in this case, mostly Muslim poor. England has a Northern Muslim population, poor and angry. Brexit is based on keeping out more migrants from the ME departing from Calais. The Channel tunnel is closed to migrants who try to attach themselves to truckers going to London. The mass migration out of the ME due to war, drought and poverty will not stop. Germany has reached its limits; the general safety net in small European countries has reached its limit. War and climate does not reach any limits.
4
Building was constructed in the 1970's well before the mass-migration you describe and contained non-Muslims as well. It would have gone up in flames regardless of the ethnicity and faith of its inhabitants.
5
It was apparently made of "X" and X was, obviously, quite flammable.
Who in their right mind advises someone to stay put in the event of a fire? That doesn't make any sense at all.
4
It does in some circumstances apparently. Depends on materials and the type of fire I think.
4
@Jennifer
Staying put can save your life if you are not in immediate danger from smoke or fire, if that is the recommendation for the building you are in when a fire breaks out.
The downside of leaving is that you will inhale a lot of smoke on your way out, and many people are not in good enough health to walk down many flights of stairs. Even if the stairwells have fire doors, smoke will enter them as residents open the doors to get to the stairs. Smoke can get heavy enough so that you do not see a fallen person on the stairs ahead of you. And a crowded stairwell (as some people move faster than others they will bunch up just like cars on a highway) giving rise to conditions where some people might panic, leading to injuries.
Staying put can save your life if you are not in immediate danger from smoke or fire, if that is the recommendation for the building you are in when a fire breaks out.
The downside of leaving is that you will inhale a lot of smoke on your way out, and many people are not in good enough health to walk down many flights of stairs. Even if the stairwells have fire doors, smoke will enter them as residents open the doors to get to the stairs. Smoke can get heavy enough so that you do not see a fallen person on the stairs ahead of you. And a crowded stairwell (as some people move faster than others they will bunch up just like cars on a highway) giving rise to conditions where some people might panic, leading to injuries.
Even with a whole ocean between us, you wouldn't know it from this piece.
3
The current Republican congress wants to eliminate regulations that are hindering business growth. The Republican President wants to privatize things like public housing that will enable a few to get rich but remain unaccountable for their actions. See any similarities? What could go wrong??
220
It is likely that London has sufficient regulations to have prevented the fire or to have made it unlikely for the fire to spread. It is going to turn out that the building inspectors responsible for enforcing the building code were either incompetent or corrupt.
It is not that there aren't enough regulations, it is that the government is inept.
Public housing is already privatized. Unless you are familiar with public housing that has been built by government workers sometime after the Depression. It is built by private companies and managed by private companies and maintained by private companies. After the local government takes their "overhead" cut and "bids out" the work to their friends.
It is not that there aren't enough regulations, it is that the government is inept.
Public housing is already privatized. Unless you are familiar with public housing that has been built by government workers sometime after the Depression. It is built by private companies and managed by private companies and maintained by private companies. After the local government takes their "overhead" cut and "bids out" the work to their friends.
4
Today five officials from Flint Michigan were indicted for manslaughter in connection with the elad problem in the water supply. You would be surprised how strict criminal responsibility would make official careful to see they really know best. A little more free speech and less defamation suits would also improve British society.
The fact that the illegal use of flammable insulation in cladding is common in Briton because it is cheap demonstrates the disregards the educated bureaucrats have for the plebs.
The fact that the illegal use of flammable insulation in cladding is common in Briton because it is cheap demonstrates the disregards the educated bureaucrats have for the plebs.
119
Witnesses say that the building went up "like a matchstick". Clearly the exterior cladding was highly flammable. The only possible reason this product choice have been chosen would be cost. Low cost over safety. Why chose the cheapest approach? To increase profits margins or rates of return. That's unfettered capitalism at its finest.
204
It is hard to assert that capitalism had anything to do with the problem. Socialism and cronyism with no accountability are not elements of capitalism.
8
Try being in the business. Everybody but everybody (and this most definitely includes clients/property owners) wants everything as cheaply as possible.
2
Did you read the article? This building is not privately owned, it is owned by the Borough of Kensington, a government entity. We don't even know the cause of the fire. But don't let the facts get in the way of your rant about the evils of capitalism. Corruption which takes place everywhere is a possible culprit. The contractor may have used cheaper paneling to make an extra pound or two.
The architect for the 2016 renovation has clearly stated that he specified fire-resistant cladding materials, and firebreaks around every window and between every floor. If this had been done correctly, this fire shouldn't have been possible.
The work was done at a cost of almost $90,000 per apartment, which was really quite a lot of spending for this sort of work. I'm sure the investigators will look carefully at the actual materials used, and whether the firebreaks were installed correctly. The workmen who worked on the job should be easy to find and interview.
The work was done at a cost of almost $90,000 per apartment, which was really quite a lot of spending for this sort of work. I'm sure the investigators will look carefully at the actual materials used, and whether the firebreaks were installed correctly. The workmen who worked on the job should be easy to find and interview.
149
Grenell Tower, like many similar examples of high-rise Council Housing, had no sprinklers and only one fire stair. That wasn't a mystery explained by inadequate construction supervision. In the US, such a building could not have obtained a Certificate of Occupancy. The Guardian's excellent reporting on the fire indicates that public officials defended the design with the argument that more expensive housing would result in fewer units built. Poor people clearly deserve less protection.
2
If you mean the that 'this is the end of the "stay put" citizen' as one who simply swallows only what authority figures are willing to freely give, than that is good and necessary. Citizens have a right & a need to be informed.
That said, "stay put" is often the best advice in a high rise fire. Chicago Police were on TV tonight reiterating that call. It appears that something was terribly wrong with the construction of the Grenfell Tower, but in well-equipped and constructed buildings, fleeing can mean more harm and possible death while staying in one's apartment/condo is usually much safer.
That said, "stay put" is often the best advice in a high rise fire. Chicago Police were on TV tonight reiterating that call. It appears that something was terribly wrong with the construction of the Grenfell Tower, but in well-equipped and constructed buildings, fleeing can mean more harm and possible death while staying in one's apartment/condo is usually much safer.
16
Sorry Anne-Marie, but I think you're wrong about staying in your apartment/condo in case of fire. During fire alarm training, people are told to walk down to safety as soon as possible. However, when fire officials arrive on site, they will evaluate the situation and may issue different orders.
When doing fire alarm training in the building where I used to work (35 storeys) in Montreal, we were even timed during our walk down the stairs to verify conformity with local evacuation standards. There were people mandated to search every meeting room to make sure no one was left behind.
When doing fire alarm training in the building where I used to work (35 storeys) in Montreal, we were even timed during our walk down the stairs to verify conformity with local evacuation standards. There were people mandated to search every meeting room to make sure no one was left behind.
32
I agree with you, but maybe the residents in this case had a (correct) sense that the building was not well equipped and well constructed, in which case they were right.
14
I live on the 16th floor of a building in Sydney fitted with sprinklers and dampers and other equipment to control smoke, fire and heat. The advice here is to evacuate as soon and as quickly as possible - 'Get down low, and Go, Go, Go.' I admit there is never the prospect that we would have to evacuate into the open air during a blizzard, but I have never heard of the 'stay-put' policy.
34
All part of the accumulation of wealth among a very small portion of the population. The rich like London, just like here in the United States, it is places such as New York and San Francisco.
Not much more then six months ago, 36 people perished in the Oakland warehouse fire. Violations of building codes might be the reason for the fire, but the lack of affordable housing is the real issue.
The rich like their playgrounds and the political class caters to them more then the people who put them in office.
Not much more then six months ago, 36 people perished in the Oakland warehouse fire. Violations of building codes might be the reason for the fire, but the lack of affordable housing is the real issue.
The rich like their playgrounds and the political class caters to them more then the people who put them in office.
102
@Const I hear what you're saying, but it's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison to bring up the Oakland fire in relation to this one. In the case of the former, people were living in a structure that was clearly not intended for sustained residential use. In this case, people were living in a building explicitly built for that purpose that was recently renovated. To see a building go up in flames like this in 2017 in London is simply unconscionable.
15
Const,
Most of those who died in the Oakland fire were at an illegal club. They did not live there. The city of Oakland was complicit in their deaths by not informing their own laws!
Most of those who died in the Oakland fire were at an illegal club. They did not live there. The city of Oakland was complicit in their deaths by not informing their own laws!
1
As I watched the pictures of the fire in "council housing," I wondered, "What? No sprinklers? No fire sensors in each unit that would set off an alarm—in a 20+ story building?" That goes beyond reckless; it's criminal.
275
Another reason why British Muslims, not integrated, might turn to violence.
1
@Name
It was British Muslims up in the early hours of the morning before their last meal of the day during Ramadan who saved lives by running up and down the corridors shouting for people to get out.
It is British Muslim charities who joined with other local charities who are collecting blankets and food for tenants made homeless by the fire.
You can read about this in the British press.
It was British Muslims up in the early hours of the morning before their last meal of the day during Ramadan who saved lives by running up and down the corridors shouting for people to get out.
It is British Muslim charities who joined with other local charities who are collecting blankets and food for tenants made homeless by the fire.
You can read about this in the British press.
3
The real criminal thing is only one staircase and it is next to the lift. What were they thinking?
If I lived there I'd have gloves and a rope long enough to reach the ground handy.
If I lived there I'd have gloves and a rope long enough to reach the ground handy.
1
There's a reason for reasonable regulations for building safety and this tragedy is a prime example. Hopefully this tragedy will be a wake up call for change. People have a right to feel safe in their own home and deserve to have their concerns taken seriously.
52
And the beauty of these government/private arrangements is that
no one is held responsible, with each of several opaque organizations
pointing at each other.
Bizarre that they spent about $12 million two years ago on insulation
and double glazing, but no fire alarm nor sprinklers.
no one is held responsible, with each of several opaque organizations
pointing at each other.
Bizarre that they spent about $12 million two years ago on insulation
and double glazing, but no fire alarm nor sprinklers.
217
Agreed. I'm truly shocked that construction and fire safety standards are apparently so much stronger in the US than the UK.
35
The UK has a reputation of VERY stringent fire safety standards - far greater than those in the US. They still remember the Great London Fire.
6
Exactly.
4