Finally, a church that does not usurp the power of God. God created us, every single one, like Itself. There is no separation between God's creations. We are all one in Mind of God. Judgement IS SEPARATION and a useless attempt to replace Love with hate. It will never win because hate is not in Mind of God.
4
It begs the question 'Why did it take the Catholic Church so long to come to this conclusion?' In my view gays are just another equal opportunity sinner.
1
Churchmen such as Fr. Martin and Cd. Tobin are only interested in casting gay people in a certain light - as being totally comfortable with their sexuality and who have no choice but to live it out. They therefore use this as a premise to propose that the only way for the Church to move forward in ministering to people with same sex attraction is to change its teaching. However, in doing so, they put gay people in the little box as all being the same - totally OK with their same sex attraction and incapable of living out the challenge of growing in holiness by following the Church's current teachings (as many already do). And, while preaching compassion, they also have publicity stunt Masses like this (an article in the Times!) to use gay people as pawns in their game of messaging their narrative.
Notice Fr. Marin's implication that any type of sin would bar someone from Communion - he thus conceals the Church's distinction between venial and mortal sin, as mortal sin is what bars one from receiving Communion and venial sin does not. So, while misrepresenting Church teaching on the one hand, on the other he implies that the Church has failed at the mission of serving homosexuals, which mission he undermines by misrepresenting the Church's teaching: "Though I have been sabotaging the Church's mission, it's failed! Though few people even know the Church's full teaching on homosexuality, and I am misrepresenting it, it pushes people away! It's time to build bridges!"
Notice Fr. Marin's implication that any type of sin would bar someone from Communion - he thus conceals the Church's distinction between venial and mortal sin, as mortal sin is what bars one from receiving Communion and venial sin does not. So, while misrepresenting Church teaching on the one hand, on the other he implies that the Church has failed at the mission of serving homosexuals, which mission he undermines by misrepresenting the Church's teaching: "Though I have been sabotaging the Church's mission, it's failed! Though few people even know the Church's full teaching on homosexuality, and I am misrepresenting it, it pushes people away! It's time to build bridges!"
4
More things change the more they stay the same The LGBTQ family was welcomed but a conversation about lifestyle will follow nothing here to celebrate.
While Pope Francis and Catholic leaders like Cardinal Tobin are ushering in new fresh air into the church, it needs to do so much more.
The Catholic Church needs to finally embrace equality for all. It must stop cherry picking those who are welcome, those who can receive communion at the table of Jesus, those who can become priests and cast off centuries of oppressive dictate and babble use to "keep people in their place," to control, and to oppress and subordinate women, gays and others.
Maybe the simple Jesuit priest from Argentina will be the one to truly transform the church and make it the welcoming house of the Lord.
The Catholic Church needs to finally embrace equality for all. It must stop cherry picking those who are welcome, those who can receive communion at the table of Jesus, those who can become priests and cast off centuries of oppressive dictate and babble use to "keep people in their place," to control, and to oppress and subordinate women, gays and others.
Maybe the simple Jesuit priest from Argentina will be the one to truly transform the church and make it the welcoming house of the Lord.
5
Why would any gay person care whether the Church accepts them or not? Get over it. I understand that the brain-washing of religion is difficult to reject, but why be so masochistic and tear yourself apart? For What? For some allegedly chaste cleric to lord it over you for the rest of your life in the name of a god for whose existence there is no evidence?
6
Too little, too late.
6
Romans 1:26-27
"For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature.
And, in like manner the men also, leaving the natural use of the woman, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error."
"For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature.
And, in like manner the men also, leaving the natural use of the woman, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error."
1
It's all about the money. The Catholic Church is hemmoraging money just like other mainline denominations. Wait until one of these folks want a funeral mass and there partner won't be recognized. They just want these people back for the money. There's no real welcome here.
4
These are all small steps for the Church in a modern world that has taken leaps with respect to accepting LGBTQ people. Tobin is good to welcome, but with the looming threat of what comes next, I don't know how long I would feel fully welcome. It's like...you can come to the table but you can't eat. Thanks...I'm still hungry for the dignity and justice your Church proclaims. Sigh...
3
Cardinal Tobin, as described, brought Pope Francis to Newark. There are many dioceses in the nation which need their bishops to do likewise.
5
I understand the Christian belief that "all" are sinners. There are many who believe we were not born a "sinner", and live in that vain. I'm pleased to read the progress the Christian church is making towards inclusion of LGBTQI people. Others need to understand something, All persons get to decide there faith, and conduct throughout there time in this space, and RESPECT those choices. Remain calm, silent and if you must voice your choice [s], do so as to not cause harm, sadness to others, many choose not to believe we wre born "sinners" and need forgiveness. I need NO god to forgive me, just many gods/goddesses to be present with there energy and spirit to keep me strong.
1
I think this can neatly be summed up as, "I gave up sex, you can too."
10
Joan and I are very proud and excited to have attended this important event--a Roman Catholic Mass at the Newark Cathedral with a giant of a Christian, Cardinal Joseph W. Tobin, welcoming those who previously had not received such a welcome. One small but wonderful step in the journey to make the Church reflect and fully equalize its treatment of all the varied people of its Kingdom--that is, all the people of the fabric of humanity.
14
Now go, & like everyone else-- every other sinner-- repent, & make disciples of Christ in all the nations. & if your chosen lifestyle keeps you from doing that, abandon that tired facade
4
If you are heterosexual, try and change that. Fat chance.
10
With so many so-called Christians voting for Trump, Christianity in the USA needs all the help it can get. This helps.
26
I am a cradle lapsed Catholic, who left the Church in the early 70s, right after completing 13 years of parochial school. I left due to my age of rebellion, weariness with my schooling, the era, and a burgeoning disagreement with the Church's views on women and birth control.
I have found homes in various Protestant denominations over the years and a sense of spirituality.
I have lately been yearning for the Church perhaps due to its place in my Irish NYC young person life, and it's constancy and mystery. Francis and the Church's consistency in social justice have enhanced that yearning.
The welcome to my LBGTQ brothers and sisters has further nudged me. Could it be a little gentle shove from the spiritual and from the faith of my family?
I have found homes in various Protestant denominations over the years and a sense of spirituality.
I have lately been yearning for the Church perhaps due to its place in my Irish NYC young person life, and it's constancy and mystery. Francis and the Church's consistency in social justice have enhanced that yearning.
The welcome to my LBGTQ brothers and sisters has further nudged me. Could it be a little gentle shove from the spiritual and from the faith of my family?
15
We are welcome so long as we remember we are gravely disordered, condemned by a loving God to a life of celibacy and longing?
Nice.
Nice.
14
Why would anyone care whether a religious organization approves of him/her nor not.
I suppose mythology is more alive and well than I thought.
I suppose mythology is more alive and well than I thought.
8
Amen.
That is how I read it. Nice step but to welcome LBGT because everyone is a sinner is really not acceptance and marginally welcoming.
6
A true welcome comes when all lesbian, gay bisexual, transgender, queer and intersex (LGBTQI) Catholics have a place at the Eucharistic table. The hierarchy needs to recognize and ask forgiveness for the spiritual violence they have done in Jesus' name to the LGBTQI community. The hierarchy needs to stop its campaign to deny LGBTQI people and women their equal rights in all aspects of society.
23
Almost all of the post concerning Christianity point to the fact that we are all to LOVE as Christ instructed. There are three different types of love mentioned in the Bible (Eros, Philos, Agape). In very simplistic terms Eros is sexual or relational physical type of love, Philos is brotherly love like a friend or brother or sister. Then the last most complete love is Agape the love that makes sacrifices that you will put anything ahead of yourself to love someone like our love for the Father should be or more relevant that the Son shows by giving his life so that we are not condemned by our sins. So if we use agape as our reference then we as Christians should love everyone no matter our beliefs just so we are inclusive to the LGBT community. Does this not then mean that when you degrade my faith and try to bully me by name calling that you are an example of sacrificial love as long as we agree with your definition of it.
4
The sooner people everywhere eschew Religion altogether, the better it will be for all of humankind.
Religion, the cause of all war, must be rejected.
Religion, the cause of all war, must be rejected.
14
The Communist manifesto has proven that religion is the enemy of the people? How's that been working out? As soon as the Iron Curtain is lifted, religious faith flourishes. So what's that about? Only dimwits are religious? It's called the gift of faith- like love, mysterious, enriching, individually magnetic...Sterile is the intellectual who is blinded to this mysterious human truth. PAX
Frankly, I am really tired of this oldies' kind of media pitch. The Church, of course, needs to welcome ALL people. Only the press needs to fill this much space with the obvious. The coddling of gays as some "special" group that deserves "special" attention is exactly what brought out voters who gave the country Donald Trump as President. Many Americans are fed up with elitist propaganda. Any number of groups in our society need "special" attention and do not get it from the media because they are not "in" the elitist cloud. This article is just another example of the media-driven drama that alienates many. Get over It.
4
Gays deserve what you call "special attention" because they have been subjected to so much negative attention, both in the past and continuing into the present.
4
The lack of compassion in your post tells me you are in greater need of religious attention than any gay person. Jesus taught you how to love. You played hooky and it shows.
5
I guess you didn't read the entire article, just the Breibart except.
5
Everybody is welcome at Mass. In fact, all Catholics are required to go to Mass every Sunday unless one is traveling or ill. As for receiving Communion, that is another story. If one is in the state of mortal sin, he/she must receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation first. The truth is that if one is sorry....truly sorry... you do your very best to "go and sin no more."
Homosexual acts are immoral. This is not up for discussion. I sincerely believe that many do suffer from same-sex attraction and many work with professionals to overcome their struggle. I say, "Bless them." I also say God is truth and we, as Catholics, have a responsiblity to tell and live the truth.
Homosexual acts are immoral. This is not up for discussion. I sincerely believe that many do suffer from same-sex attraction and many work with professionals to overcome their struggle. I say, "Bless them." I also say God is truth and we, as Catholics, have a responsiblity to tell and live the truth.
5
Truth????
8
Ummm no.
2
Your "Truth" is a subjective belief and it is a "Truth" that certainly is under discussion even within your church.
8
The precepts of the Roman Catholic Church evolve more slowly than those of any other organization in the history of mankind. Still, it's good to see that after 2017 years since Christ's death, the RC Church is finally beginning to understand the true teachings of the man whom they believe gave his life for mankind's salvation. I've always said that if we lived our lives TRULY according to the teachings of Christ and not the misinterpretations that myriad religions have used to slander and distort his teachings, we would live in a more peaceful world. This is a small but important step along the way of realizing that every person on this planet is entitled to respect and dignity regardless of their professed religion or any other human attribute. Only through tolerance and acceptance can we live in peace with our neighbors whether we agree with their personal choices or not.
9
In New York City there has always been s sizable gay community including Catholics. They have always been welcome and some of the churches even have regular meetings for the members. The Church is not condoning homosexuality but realize they too need spirituality and prayer. They should not be engaging in sex as this is a serious sin. This will never change nor will same-sex marriage be allowed.
6
The Rev. Robert Gahl, professor of ethics at Opus Dei University, rightly urges church leaders to challenge all Catholics to "live according to the teachings of Jesus." Surely he knows that none of the four gospels records a single word of Jesus about same-sex love, but all four record endless words about love. NO distinction in love is ever made by Jesus--between friends, family members, people of different tribes, even enemies. What is required is always the same: opening one's heart and mind and hand to the other--unconditionally. Are those at the Opus Dei University will to do this?
10
Many people are devoted Roman Catholics or mainline protestants. About 35 years ago, I left a mainline protestant church because at that time LGBT people were at best second class citizens. I joined a Unitarian Universalist (UU) church primarily because they had included LGBT persons as full-fledged members, including ordination, since at least 1970. Yet I was able to continue my belief in the teachings of Jesus, as well as be exposed to Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist and many other schools of religious thought. Except for the Metropolitan Community Church, the UU's have been decades ahead of other denominations in extending full love and standing to those in the LGBT community. UU's believe in standing on the side of love.
21
You are absolutely right about that.
1
We shouldn't be afraid of change or doing the right and loving thing for fear a schism might result. Sticking together only for that sake is going to work for a limited while. Times change. Beliefs change. People change. When these changes bring about more loving inclusivity, who are we to judge that the church should not accept and welcome such inclusivity based on the most important principle of Christianity: Jesus's teaching that love is the way, and that we should love our neighbor as ourself. If only we can live that way fully, harmony and peace will naturally result.
9
"As Church Shifts, a Cardinal Welcomes Gays; They Embrace a ‘Miracle’"
One would have to be pretty downtrodden and desperate to view this initiative as anything other than 'too little, too late'.
Even if you put the best possible interpretation on this initiative, LGBTs are still to be treated as (at best) second class citizens in the Catholic Church.
While it is nice that Francis is not as blatantly self-righteous and hostile to LGBTs as his immediate predecessors, the problems with the Church go beyond the various personalities involved.
If recent revelations about what the Bishops knew and what they did about child sex abuse in the Church are any indication, the hierarchy of the Church can only be described as being morally compromised at a deeply fundamental level.
Given this, their propensity to lord it over the laity with their holier-than-thou pretensions only reinforces the conclusion that the whole structure of the Church needs to be changed.
A viable reformed Church must start with the laity having the power to appoint and remove priests, from the lowest to the highest levels. This will be a meaningful beginning in imposing some accountability and humility on these self-styled 'Princes' of the Church.
One would have to be pretty downtrodden and desperate to view this initiative as anything other than 'too little, too late'.
Even if you put the best possible interpretation on this initiative, LGBTs are still to be treated as (at best) second class citizens in the Catholic Church.
While it is nice that Francis is not as blatantly self-righteous and hostile to LGBTs as his immediate predecessors, the problems with the Church go beyond the various personalities involved.
If recent revelations about what the Bishops knew and what they did about child sex abuse in the Church are any indication, the hierarchy of the Church can only be described as being morally compromised at a deeply fundamental level.
Given this, their propensity to lord it over the laity with their holier-than-thou pretensions only reinforces the conclusion that the whole structure of the Church needs to be changed.
A viable reformed Church must start with the laity having the power to appoint and remove priests, from the lowest to the highest levels. This will be a meaningful beginning in imposing some accountability and humility on these self-styled 'Princes' of the Church.
5
I knew a gay man who spent an entire lifetime of penance and self loathing, having had the misfortune of being raised a conservative Catholic. For seventeen years, I was partnered with a man who considered himself a conservative Catholic and attended mass regularly, wrestling with the moral dilemma of a manufactured sin. My advice to believers is simple: open your eyes to the futility and falseness of religion and the controlling men who lead them. You have this one life. Live it in freedom from their shackles.
15
So is Adultery a manufactured sin? Because sexually active gay men and women commit Adultery when they have sex outside of marriage. It would be the same for any heterosexual who have sex outside of marriage.
3
The solution, then, is embracing same sex maarriage.
Yes. Even many religions do not prescribe monogamy. Think how popular the TV shows about Mormon Polygamist sects are on television.
A welcomed and needed first step. But why do they and others feel the need to qualify their welcome with "we are all sinners?" We have gay friends who have been together in a monogamous relationship nearly as long as my husband and I of 44 years. Their love is no more a sin than ours.
11
The New Testament itself (in Acts 15) narrates a time in the life of the early Church when the leadership had to answer the question of membership of those considered "unclean" (i.e. Gentiles). It was the witness of these Gentiles that, in the end, allowed long-standing tradition of mandatory circumcision to be re-interpreted through the experience of faith. Paul's own letters agree with this development. Given this, and the principle that "truth cannot contradict truth" (that ultimately, there is no conflict between theology and science), many have seen a parallel situation today with regard to persons with a homosexual orientation. The narrative of faith always provokes a recognition that personal experience is always an essential element in the Church's discernment, of this or any issue.
4
They may welcome me, but I do not welcome the catholic church or any other antiquated and repressive organization with a 2,000 year history of hate.
10
It is a sin in the Catholic church if a single heterosexual person engages in sex outside of marriage. It is the same sin for homosexual persons engaging in sex. Gay marriage will never be recognized by the Catholic church. It's part of the Catechism of the Church. All Catholics are sinners and have struggles that they have to work on. The Church sees homosexuality as a struggle.
3
Never? Don't forget, Melissa, that in the early church Paul advised unmarried Christians to remain single--because the final culmination of history was at hand. Marriage itself was not recognized as one of the sacraments for over a thousand years. Christians' views of marriage have undergone profound changes in 2000 years. And far greater changes have occurred in some areas than the recognition of the love between two people of the same sex (e.g., usuary, religious freedom, salvation outside the church). "Never" is a risky word to use when we are talking about a faith community that believes in the transforming power of the Holy Spirit.
9
I stopped reading when the Archbishop welcomed the gays/lesbians as their brother and "as a sinner who finds mercy with the Lord." Oh I see we are welcome as long as we recognize our sins as practicing gay people. No. No. No.
4
When mass starts, parishioners are invited to confess sins of omission, too. Maybe some people consider homosexuality and abortion as THE major sin. I don't think God's does.I think lack of loving is a greater sin. I think being judgmental is a greater sin. Remember the parables of the pharisee and the tax collector? The pharisee got the shafts because he committed the worse sin; he presumed to judge someone else.
While it sounds as if Cardinal Tobin and his fellow clergy were quite welcoming to all, the article is not clear as to whether this was a Mass only for gays and lesbians who eschew sexual relations. Here in Philadelphia and elsewhere, the church supports an "authorized" organization called Courage for gays and lesbians who are celibate, but it will not allow Dignity -- an unauthorized organization for gays who are non-celibate -- to meet on church property. It also emphatically bars priests from celebrating Mass at Dignity gatherings. All this leaves me wondering if the event in Newark was open to celibate and non-celibate alike. If so, it suggests a sea-change in the hierarchy's attitude towards gays and lesbians. Tobin surely knows which way the wind is blowing from Rome, and might even have received Francis' blessing to do this.
4
The Pilgrimage was not a "Courage" sponsored event.
"But Cardinal Tobin said in an interview last week that to combine his welcome with a criticism would not have been a full welcome at all."
Does Cardinal place himself above our Savior? "Go and sin no more" were the words that were used to the adulteress after He protected her. You see it was not a mixed message to the Christ why should it be to one of His representatives.
When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”
“No, Lord,” she said.
And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”
Does Cardinal place himself above our Savior? "Go and sin no more" were the words that were used to the adulteress after He protected her. You see it was not a mixed message to the Christ why should it be to one of His representatives.
When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”
“No, Lord,” she said.
And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”
5
The Roman Catholic Church has drawn many lines in the sand with its doctrine and catechism. To believe that these should not change at all over time will, of course, drive many from the church and prevent new people from becoming a part of it. If that's what the majority of Cardinals want, then congregational numbers will continue to slide. If the lead of Pope Francis and Father Tobin is followed, then the slippage of adherents may begin to slack off. Because that's the right and loving thing to do. Above all, God is love.
3
Where precisely in either the teachings of Jesus or the Ten Commandments are there any mentions of gays and lesbians or same-sex marriage?
There are Six Clobber verses in the Bible that mention some sort of same sex behavior, but that's a very far cry from the scientific and biological fact of life that sexual orientation exists. Ancient men writing in the iron and bronze age knew nothing about orientation or gender identity issues. The words homosexuality, gay, and lesbian are modern words based on science and biology.
There are Six Clobber verses in the Bible that mention some sort of same sex behavior, but that's a very far cry from the scientific and biological fact of life that sexual orientation exists. Ancient men writing in the iron and bronze age knew nothing about orientation or gender identity issues. The words homosexuality, gay, and lesbian are modern words based on science and biology.
10
Leviticus 20:13
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them."
This passage from the OT is believed to have been written down at least 2,500 years ago, but possibly a commonly held view of the Hebrews for hundreds of years before that. The New Testament also speaks against homosexuality, as does the Koran. So, the people who wrote these texts must have know that it existed among them even before there was religion. In other words, it's just something that exists in nature, and and for some reason they sought to eradicate it. I don't know why.
In any case, because of these ancient tests, we can know that homosexuality existed in nature before any religious texts were written - otherwise they wouldn't have written about it - and it existed everywhere on earth, and among all races of people, and always a small minority of all people. Today, some religious people are trying to reconcile their faith with their tolerance, but this appears to me an impossible task, because the texts can't be changed and they form the foundation of the faith, and to conclude they are wrong undermines the faith itself. And you can't just ignore these texts, either, because there will always be others who will hold them up.
So, good luck to all you believers with all that. You're going to need it. My advice, though, would be to just try not to persecute anyone for it.
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be on them."
This passage from the OT is believed to have been written down at least 2,500 years ago, but possibly a commonly held view of the Hebrews for hundreds of years before that. The New Testament also speaks against homosexuality, as does the Koran. So, the people who wrote these texts must have know that it existed among them even before there was religion. In other words, it's just something that exists in nature, and and for some reason they sought to eradicate it. I don't know why.
In any case, because of these ancient tests, we can know that homosexuality existed in nature before any religious texts were written - otherwise they wouldn't have written about it - and it existed everywhere on earth, and among all races of people, and always a small minority of all people. Today, some religious people are trying to reconcile their faith with their tolerance, but this appears to me an impossible task, because the texts can't be changed and they form the foundation of the faith, and to conclude they are wrong undermines the faith itself. And you can't just ignore these texts, either, because there will always be others who will hold them up.
So, good luck to all you believers with all that. You're going to need it. My advice, though, would be to just try not to persecute anyone for it.
11
Sorry to say, this is all nonsense unless the core doctrine of the church changes, which it won't. Same sex marriage, same sex sex, same sex attraction are all deemed either serious/mortal violations of God's commandments or "disordered" (in the case of mere attraction). This "welcome" charade is the same thing as a 1960's (or 70's or 80's) country club having a "welcome" lunch for local black folks while barring them from membership. There is no "welcome" when you can't come as you are and be fully accepted in that identity so please don't call this a "welcome". At best, this was a "greeting" where everyone is allowed to introduce themselves and say who they are before being shown the door. A question: was communion offered to everyone -- or was a "warning" given that those living in mortal sin are not in communion with the church and should avoid receiving? My money is on the latter, which only makes this worse.
14
the core doctrine of the church against homosexuality will never change because God says He never changes. It's God who says homosexuality is wrong, the church cannot cherry pick which laws of God they want to obey and which ones they don't. However, gays should never have been banned from participating in the first place. They are sinners the same as all of us are. We can't pick one sin, by which most of us are not even tempted anyway, and exclude people on that basis.
In the article, it states that Cardinal Tobin welcomed the group to participate in Holy Communion, no questions asked.
That's a very clear and real welcome.
That's a very clear and real welcome.
6
Of course communion was offered to everyone who attended that Mass! The only time communion has been denied to a gay person at Mass is in a movie!
1
We are all the family of man, brothers and sisters all. Finally the church hierarchy is coming to its senses and acting as Jesus would have.
13
And Jesus said He WILL separate the goats from the sheep and send them to eternal damnation. Looking forward to that.
1
Wonder which one you will be! Will the self righteous be sheep or goats. I'm betting the latter.
And Jesus said "judge not lest ye be judged."
As a life-long practicing Catholic, this story made my day. I believe that baptism is a sacred covenant between myself and God. I can break it or God can break it, but no other human has the right to do that, for any reason. To see Catholic leaders like this bishop standing up for that truth is a wonderful thing.
24
News Flash: Some Catholics finally act Christian.
28
Some Christians finally act heretical...
1
How very, very odd.
Here is what Paul is saying to the men (after the women are dismissed with a VERY different message!) in Romans, Chapter 7, verse 4:
"Wherefore, my brethern, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."
This is the recycling of the Platonic Ideal, that men loving and marrying other men will bring forth the "birth of Ideas" which are far superior to marrying women and "bringing forth those squalling babies".
I can't imagine why the Catholic Church has EVER had a problem with gays.
I also understand, all too perfectly, why Francis replied "NEVER!" when asked when women would be able to be priests. "NEVER!"
Why in the world any female would be Catholic is beyond me.
Here is what Paul is saying to the men (after the women are dismissed with a VERY different message!) in Romans, Chapter 7, verse 4:
"Wherefore, my brethern, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that you should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God."
This is the recycling of the Platonic Ideal, that men loving and marrying other men will bring forth the "birth of Ideas" which are far superior to marrying women and "bringing forth those squalling babies".
I can't imagine why the Catholic Church has EVER had a problem with gays.
I also understand, all too perfectly, why Francis replied "NEVER!" when asked when women would be able to be priests. "NEVER!"
Why in the world any female would be Catholic is beyond me.
25
Most women remain in the Catholic church because that's where they were brought up. Familiarity is comfortable. Orders of Catholic sisters do wonderful work, but most entered because they were brought up Catholic. What percentage of Catholic sisters came from another religion? Probably less than one percent.
3
That's a bizarre interpretation of Romans 7:4. Paul begins in 7:2-3 by making an analogy with the status of a woman whose husband dies and so is now free to marry another without sin - so likewise, those he addresses are now freed from the law through Christ:
4: In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5: For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death.
How do you interpret this as Paul's encouraging men to "marry each other"? By "another" he clearly means Christ, "the one raised from the dead" - not "each other."
Whatever your issues with the Catholic Church, at least criticize based on reality, not on "alternate" Scripture.
As for women in the Church: we want to be in the Church for the same reason men of faith do: to come close to God in Christ, receive His love and grace, grow in knowledge and understanding of his Word and his Will, and serve Him - especially by serving others.
4: In the same way, my brothers, you also were put to death to the law through the body of Christ, so that you might belong to another, to the one who was raised from the dead in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5: For when we were in the flesh, our sinful passions, awakened by the law, worked in our members to bear fruit for death.
How do you interpret this as Paul's encouraging men to "marry each other"? By "another" he clearly means Christ, "the one raised from the dead" - not "each other."
Whatever your issues with the Catholic Church, at least criticize based on reality, not on "alternate" Scripture.
As for women in the Church: we want to be in the Church for the same reason men of faith do: to come close to God in Christ, receive His love and grace, grow in knowledge and understanding of his Word and his Will, and serve Him - especially by serving others.
2
Since sexual attraction is not a choice and cannot be unchosen, it makes no more moral sense to condemn gays than it does to condemn the left-handed and force them to learn to write with their right hands. For that matter, the only difference between the rhythm method and other means of contraception is its unreliability; the intent is the same, and it should be as off limits as any other contraceptive method.
The philosophical and theological ways of thinking that underlie the condemnation of homosexuality have given rise to other monstrous perversions of morality. One outstanding example is Aquinas's deduction that the saved are aware of the tortures of the damned and celebrate them as examples of God's justice, while celebrating their own state as examples of God's mercy. In modern terms, people in heaven sit around watching and enjoying torture on TV. This is the morality of the Middle Ages; ours is different; and if unchanging morality can be known with surety, the Church does not manage to do it and its claim to do so is a self-delusion if not an outright lie -- exposed by its own history.
An honest theology would clear these things up -- or admit that we have absolutely no understanding of true morality and have to do what (we think) God says even when it makes no sense in terms of the ethics he has taught us. But openly honest theologians get excommunicated. It is time for logos to overcome blind tradition, and for institutions to confess and repent.
The philosophical and theological ways of thinking that underlie the condemnation of homosexuality have given rise to other monstrous perversions of morality. One outstanding example is Aquinas's deduction that the saved are aware of the tortures of the damned and celebrate them as examples of God's justice, while celebrating their own state as examples of God's mercy. In modern terms, people in heaven sit around watching and enjoying torture on TV. This is the morality of the Middle Ages; ours is different; and if unchanging morality can be known with surety, the Church does not manage to do it and its claim to do so is a self-delusion if not an outright lie -- exposed by its own history.
An honest theology would clear these things up -- or admit that we have absolutely no understanding of true morality and have to do what (we think) God says even when it makes no sense in terms of the ethics he has taught us. But openly honest theologians get excommunicated. It is time for logos to overcome blind tradition, and for institutions to confess and repent.
27
This shows growth and inclusiveness. Both good things.
6
Even if the Catholic Church were to change its dogmas about homosexuality's being "intrinsically disordered" and other dogmas like it, there is no way the Church can heal the sufferings of all those who have been condemned by such dogmas, of those who have believed themselves cast into hell both during life and after life, of those who have lived lives filled with guilt because of emotional needs and sexual needs caused by genetics, hormones, incomplete fetal changes during the first trimester, and other possible causes over which they had no control.
The Church leaders who have created and maintained such dogmas and caused such sufferings can never heal nor make up for such sufferings, sufferings that Jesus would never have inflicted. To acknowledge this is to say that the Catholic Church itself has sinned monumentally through its ignorance, intransigence, judgmentalism. and hypocritical self-righteousness. The Catholic Church has a debt it can never repay.
The Church leaders who have created and maintained such dogmas and caused such sufferings can never heal nor make up for such sufferings, sufferings that Jesus would never have inflicted. To acknowledge this is to say that the Catholic Church itself has sinned monumentally through its ignorance, intransigence, judgmentalism. and hypocritical self-righteousness. The Catholic Church has a debt it can never repay.
10
This is ancient, ancient history of how people needed to cope with science and all the evidence of life around them that they couldn't explain. How is this antiquated system of "beliefs" even relevant?
6
So . . . what do you see as a better policy? A time machine? The Bishop's words were about as Christian as you can get, and I would hope many more welcoming actions would take place, but to act like past sins are irredeemable . . . well THAT is the very definition of un-Christian.
4
The suffering caused by often hypocritical priests on sexuality was indeed severe, and for many it remains.
1
According to the catholic church any sex other then between a couple married by the church is a deadly sin. This applies to LGBT as well as straight people and masturbation. This has never changed and any jubilation about a softening attitude toward sex is hogwash.
7
When asked what he thought was the most serious problem in the Church today, Pope Benedict said lack of reverence for the Eucharist. Many Catholics are unaware of transubstantiation--that the faith holds that the bread and wine become the body and blood of christ--let alone that they should refrain from receiving communion if they're not "in communion" with the church. If you're persisting in what the church teaches is sinful, have no contrition and intention to go to confession, then you should not be receiving holy communion. Yes, this applies to anyone having sex outside marriage, contracepting, abusing one's employees, destroying embryos for IVF, any number of things. Maybe you don't agree that what you're doing is sinful--then you really aren't in communion with the church, because you reject its teachings.
I've heard that decades ago, less than half the congregation would usually receive communion, because people took it seriously--maybe they didn't have a chance to get to confession that week, or just broke the fast before coming to church. Now everyone goes, as if on autopilot, many without appreciating what it means or feeling much reverence and humility about it. To see a Cardinal encouraging this trend is a sad thing.
I've heard that decades ago, less than half the congregation would usually receive communion, because people took it seriously--maybe they didn't have a chance to get to confession that week, or just broke the fast before coming to church. Now everyone goes, as if on autopilot, many without appreciating what it means or feeling much reverence and humility about it. To see a Cardinal encouraging this trend is a sad thing.
7
This thoughtful comment above encapsulates perfectly why I haven't attended Mass in years... and have no plans to in the future.
16
Contraception is not a sin. Embryoes have no life.
1
And the intolerant voice from the Middle Ages has his say...
1
Needing the acceptance of straight people is just a sign of gay oppression. The day the leaders of the Roman Catholic Church put on sackcloth and ashes and beg gay people's forgiveness for the precious gay lives this institution has ruined or caused to end by suicide -- THAT'S the start of a useful dialogue.
Question for gay people (or anyone) who seeks guidance and wisdom from the Catholic Church, especially on sexual matters: Have that institution and its leaders shown themselves to be wise?
Question for gay people (or anyone) who seeks guidance and wisdom from the Catholic Church, especially on sexual matters: Have that institution and its leaders shown themselves to be wise?
14
Depends entirely what you mean by "welcome." Walmart welcomes everyone, too, on the premise that you might be persuaded to buy what they are offering. The Catholic church has long said "come on in" but wants you to know that your sexuality is evil and that your partnerships are perverted. Francis' off-handed "who am I to judge?" changed nothing about that but its ambiguity did spur false hopes in some quarters, including newspapers. I suspect that he didn't feel any compunction to "judge" because previous popes had already done the judging. So who was he to contradict that?
6
It's easy to criticise from the outside looking in. I was brought up Catholic and saw they way my mother struggled with balancing the teachings of the Church with having two gay sisters. She never judged her siblings yet struggled with the idea of homosexual couples adopting children because the religion she had been born into and formed a life around condemened it. It's hard for many to simply 'walk away' from Catholicism as it can mean walking away from family, community and friends. There's a lot that can change in the Catholic church but there is also a lot of good and good people who practice, struggling with what they are told and what they believe is right. It is unacceptable that gay people should be discriminated against in any way, but actions like those of Cardinal Tobin show that change could finally be coming.
9
I reject the concept that the church can exclude members of a family.
I can't count how many times I've heard the phrase, "change could finally be coming" or something similar regarding the Catholic Church and its vicious ways. Sure there are good people in the church, but real change? Don't hold your breath.
1
When people say they 'left the church', what do they mean? They just stop going to Mass? There is nothing more formal to do. You can't cancel your membership. Many or most Catholics do not attend Mass, but still consider themselves Catholic, at least nominally. The term 'nonobservant Catholic' would fit them but the term is not used. Or, they say they are Catholic, or were 'raised Catholic' (a common one), but disagree with or don't believe this or that aspect of it. But 'leaving the church' . . . not sure what that means. I guess you could officially declare yourself 'no longer Catholic', but no one would be listening, like when Michael Scott 'declared bankruptcy' by shouting the phrase from his office.
1
I can never tell if the New York Times purposely misunderstands the Catholic Church, her love and her teachings, or really believes the things it publishes. The Church welcomes, and has always welcomed, all of us. We're all sinners. All of us are called to lives of virtue and chastity, whatever our current state in life. It's hard for everybody in his or her own personal way. A sexually active gay person is committing the same sin as a married couple using birth control, but nobody writes articles about the church holding a pilgrimage for people espousing artificial birth control. Our sins are between ourselves and our confessors. And outside the confessional nobody has a right to assume that gay people are sexually active any more than they should assume that married people are using birth control. How about an article now an then about a Courage member, or an NFP doctor just for the sake of balance?
12
Considering the high rate of gay men in the priesthood, this might make some sense, eh?
6
Finally some lifting of Bible's dogma, given that being gay is not a choice and certainly not an abomination, but a condition one is born with, imprinted in the brain. Lest we forget, the Holy Book is ancient, and written by primitive, ignorant and prejudiced men, by trying to anthropomorphize a god to size, and writing in stone so much nuisance, now debunked by science, based on empiric evidence. It is as if one would continue to insist that Earth was build in 6 days, or 6,000 years, against the ~4 billion years we now know by an educated guess and based on science and technological evidence, plus an open mind willing to change its understanding of humble Earth's magnificence, as part of the wisdom of our multiverse, and whose only miracle consists of our ability to explain it. If the church doesn't adapt to the only reality we know for sure, it's relevance is dead in the water.
7
I wouldn't say that being gay is a condition...
There may be "welcoming" clergy in the Catholic Church, but Church dogma still speaks of homosexuals as "intrinsically disordered" and in other condemning ways. Until those dogmas are disavowed, the Church still condemns homosexuality. Gays and lesbians may be welcomed, but they are welcomed as intrinsically disordered and so on. Good manners are one thing. Condemnation of those to whom one is polite is quite another.
The Am Psychiatric Assn and the Am Psychological Assn decided in the 1970s that homosexuality is not disordered. So-called "conversion" therapy to try to get homosexuals not to act on their intrinsically homosexual needs has also been condemned.
Until the Church acts to change its dogmas to keep up and be relevant, it will continue to lose members and find itself, as in the American church, with pews full of individuals who reject teachings of Rome.
The irony of it is, if one reads the last chapter of the Gospel of John carefully, that Jesus himself appears to have been homosexual. Peter asks Jesus, who is about to be taken up into Heaven, whether he will take with him "the Discciple that Jesus loved" who lay his head on Jesus' breast at dinner. Jesus says, "No, I'll be back soon enough. Besides, what business is it of yours? Follow me." The Church has almost uniformly ignored this passage, but the author of the gospel appears quite clearly to see Jesus as gay. And so what? Nothing that Jesus taught or died for is changed if he were.
The Am Psychiatric Assn and the Am Psychological Assn decided in the 1970s that homosexuality is not disordered. So-called "conversion" therapy to try to get homosexuals not to act on their intrinsically homosexual needs has also been condemned.
Until the Church acts to change its dogmas to keep up and be relevant, it will continue to lose members and find itself, as in the American church, with pews full of individuals who reject teachings of Rome.
The irony of it is, if one reads the last chapter of the Gospel of John carefully, that Jesus himself appears to have been homosexual. Peter asks Jesus, who is about to be taken up into Heaven, whether he will take with him "the Discciple that Jesus loved" who lay his head on Jesus' breast at dinner. Jesus says, "No, I'll be back soon enough. Besides, what business is it of yours? Follow me." The Church has almost uniformly ignored this passage, but the author of the gospel appears quite clearly to see Jesus as gay. And so what? Nothing that Jesus taught or died for is changed if he were.
9
"Who am I to Judge"?? The Catholic Church judges Mother Teresa worthy of sainthood but women cannot be priests? And not just temporary, Pope Francis said "forever". Given this outright hypocrisy no wonder Church loses followers. Jimmy Carter had the courage to counter his religion. It's time to stand up for something.
9
The church needs not only teach the teachings of Christ or not call themselves the church or assembly of Christ. Christ taught that he came not to condemn but to save. Don't miss the point, we are all sinners and Jesus came not for the righteous, because there weren't any. But He continued saying, He came for sinners. He came for sinners to save them - from what? Sin or sinful or unnatural perverted tendencies from our fallen natures. This includes hatred, racism, lust, greed, and unnatural sexual tendencies. It's not normal or natural as God planned it before the fall to be the ways we are.
Let's not replace God's call to change through Christ for the problems we represent.
Let's not replace God's call to change through Christ for the problems we represent.
2
Back in the 80's when the aids epidemic first broke out and was affecting primarily gay men, the only hospitals in NYC that would accept patients with this new and unknown disease were the Catholic hospitals. Homosexuality has been viewed as "disordered", or some version of that by all religions for thousands of years.
5
Just to clear up some this verbiage, I attend Mass every Sunday and in my parish there are many gay men and women who are in the pews, along with the rest of the congregation. Despite the air of moral righteousness in several of these comments -- that admittedly come from people who have not stepped into a Church in years -- I recommend you come to grips with your personal choices and in the spirit of brotherly love, kindly accept those of others.
6
Being Catholic is a choice.
Being gay is not.
Being gay is not.
9
Mark, I believe she means the personal choices of those - gay or straight - to remain in the Catholic Church.
2
Yes, this is what I meant. Thank you, doy1
1
A welcome first step. Proud of Joe Tobin as this was an act of courage for which he will receive much negative push back from the more conservative members of the clergy. He is a favorite of Pope Francis and possibly his successor.
7
As a convert to Catholicism, I know that the actions of Cardinal Tobin reflect the belief of many Catholics. You can't change an institution from the outside, and so I embraced Catholicism for very personal reasons stemming from the sudden, untimely and very traumatic death of my husband, even as I recognized that there was much to challenge and try to change in the church.
I was raised a Methodist, and very few people talk about the bigotry within that denomination, which has put several ministers "on trial" in its version of a canonical trial for officiating at gay marriages or commitment ceremonies. And gay Methodist ministers have to remain closeted, even in very liberal regions of the Methodist denomination. We all have a long way to go, and I do understand the reactions of embittered Catholics who see this as too little, too late, but we have to start somewhere. I hope all of us can look into our own hearts more closely before we judge others.
I was raised a Methodist, and very few people talk about the bigotry within that denomination, which has put several ministers "on trial" in its version of a canonical trial for officiating at gay marriages or commitment ceremonies. And gay Methodist ministers have to remain closeted, even in very liberal regions of the Methodist denomination. We all have a long way to go, and I do understand the reactions of embittered Catholics who see this as too little, too late, but we have to start somewhere. I hope all of us can look into our own hearts more closely before we judge others.
12
The irony, of course, is that a percentage of Catholic clergy is gay. How large a percentage, we don't know....but it is certainly higher than would be true for the population as a whole. The self-loathing indicated by the actions of some of the higher gay clergy is astounding.
12
You contradict yourself. You can't be certain of something you don't know.
5
hmmm, sounds like you're denying the Faith altogether..
2
The Cardinal in NYC will never do as Cardinal Tobin has had the courage to do, as he covered up many priests perverse actions in Connecticut while serving as Bishop of Bridgeport, which is a matter of public record. The church just last week finished settling those abuses for more that $24 million because the Cardinal sitting in St. Patrick's didn't remove priests, just transfer them until it was too late.
13
That was Cardinal Egan, now deceased.
7
What is a "homosexual lifestyle"? I suspect that many in the Catholic Church have no idea, until they meet them, that LGBTQ people are simply people. My BFF (since we were 11 yo) is now married to his long term partner. All they wanted to do was to be allowed to marry and live a quiet life like other normal people. It is stunning that institutions don't understand that welcoming people in is always a better strategy than banning them.
As a very lapsed Catholic, I welcome the return to the Church of my youth, when it seemed that compassion and mercy, caring for the poor, forgiving sins, were operational every day, not just words mouthed at Mass. Probably won't make me go back to church, but welcomed none the less.
As a very lapsed Catholic, I welcome the return to the Church of my youth, when it seemed that compassion and mercy, caring for the poor, forgiving sins, were operational every day, not just words mouthed at Mass. Probably won't make me go back to church, but welcomed none the less.
10
I'm a gay man and left the church 35 years ago after years working in the gay Catholic group Dignity not just because the church was becoming worse on gay issues, but because even liberal congregations would not embrace the leadership of women as priests. Until a lesbian can be Pope, this church has a long way to go. LGBT Catholics should not settle for crumbs from the altar. A church that teaches that gay love is evil is one that worships a false god.
25
Unfortunately, gender tops the long list of discrimination, not just in the Catholic church. You call for a female priest, a lesbian pope. But the church still forbids contraception, let alone abortion. There is no lower form of subjugation than loss of control over one's own body, and by extension, one's entire future.
7
Leviticus 18:22
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination. (Translation: men shall not have sex with men)
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, they have committed an abomination; the two of them shall be put to death; their bloodguilt is upon them.
These words are written by the hand of God; the God of Isaac and Jacob. The father of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
It is YOU that worships a false god.
You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination. (Translation: men shall not have sex with men)
Leviticus 20:13
If a man lies with a male as with a woman, they have committed an abomination; the two of them shall be put to death; their bloodguilt is upon them.
These words are written by the hand of God; the God of Isaac and Jacob. The father of Our Lord, Jesus Christ.
It is YOU that worships a false god.
6
BF - isn't there something in there about man not judging other men?
Or does that part of the Bible not pertain to you?
Or does that part of the Bible not pertain to you?
The question is not," Do we receive LBGT persons". The question is "Are the natures of LBGT people or any people like racist people or hateful people, etc. natural or the way God created people to be? Obviously the answer is no! It's what separates us! The article is right in one respect - we all are errant in our natural tendencies - some toward one respect and some toward another respect - but that's why Jesus came, to redeem us from our unnatural tendencies or natures. Don't loose sight of this. Jesus came to save, change,(whatever you call it) "sinners" or those who have erred or changed in nature. It should not be natural to hate, to be racist or be a child molester, or want to be of another sex, etc.
We shouldn't condemn, Jesus came not to condemn, but to save or change us - all of us - all have sinned or changed our natures. That's the heart of the good news.
BUT ACCEPTING hatred, racism, tribalism or lesbianism as NORMAL or NATURAL, or the way it should be or the way God created us is not helping unify but separate us, and is masking our "problems". Instead of seeking solutions, we are avoiding them or accepting the problems as solutions.
The church should not discriminate against anyone who comes to God to be changed, for we all need a change in nature - we need God's nature to replace our fallen ones.
BUT until this takes place, there will always be separations, for hatred as other aberrant tendencies mitigate against peace and unity.
We shouldn't condemn, Jesus came not to condemn, but to save or change us - all of us - all have sinned or changed our natures. That's the heart of the good news.
BUT ACCEPTING hatred, racism, tribalism or lesbianism as NORMAL or NATURAL, or the way it should be or the way God created us is not helping unify but separate us, and is masking our "problems". Instead of seeking solutions, we are avoiding them or accepting the problems as solutions.
The church should not discriminate against anyone who comes to God to be changed, for we all need a change in nature - we need God's nature to replace our fallen ones.
BUT until this takes place, there will always be separations, for hatred as other aberrant tendencies mitigate against peace and unity.
How much can an institution that is modeled on Medieval monarchies match the understanding of humanity and reality that arise from science? The oldest religions operate on the basis where the institution is all that matters. It's members, believers, representatives and employees exist to serve the institution but themselves are secondary. Who is the institution? Those in power.
When those in power play a different tune then the dance steps change. But as soon as power changes the dance steps change again. John XXIII introduced some new steps. Paul VI, JP II and Joe Ratzinger returned to the old deadening dance. Francis introduces new dance steps. But for how long will he survive and will his predecessor return to days of the triple crown tiara?
For Christians it is time to return the fundamentals of Christian belief. Before hierarchies of power, before the various Pauline theories of social organization. Keep the theatrics if needed; everybody loves a good show. But return to the fundamentals of what their godhead advocated.
If a person wants to know the deity - isn't that a fundamental part of religious belief - focus on where the deity is willing to be seen: among the poor and suffering, among the humble and gentle. In the silence of one's prayers, in the rare moments when we can relinquish our egos and let that called God in.
Not in bending knowledge or manipulating ignorance to stay in power. But in the simplest and humblest acts possible.
When those in power play a different tune then the dance steps change. But as soon as power changes the dance steps change again. John XXIII introduced some new steps. Paul VI, JP II and Joe Ratzinger returned to the old deadening dance. Francis introduces new dance steps. But for how long will he survive and will his predecessor return to days of the triple crown tiara?
For Christians it is time to return the fundamentals of Christian belief. Before hierarchies of power, before the various Pauline theories of social organization. Keep the theatrics if needed; everybody loves a good show. But return to the fundamentals of what their godhead advocated.
If a person wants to know the deity - isn't that a fundamental part of religious belief - focus on where the deity is willing to be seen: among the poor and suffering, among the humble and gentle. In the silence of one's prayers, in the rare moments when we can relinquish our egos and let that called God in.
Not in bending knowledge or manipulating ignorance to stay in power. But in the simplest and humblest acts possible.
16
It says something that a Catholic parish that welcomes gay people deserves an article in the NY Times.
How amazing that anyone could actually respect the Catholic Church and their longstanding, inherent bigotry and hate.
How amazing that anyone could actually respect the Catholic Church and their longstanding, inherent bigotry and hate.
20
It is both sad and aughable that gays would not be welcomed by a religious institution when so many of that institution's own priests are themselves gay.
34
@John McD: Where are your stats to prove that "so many" Catholic priests "are themselves gay"? I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but it is the kind of certain statement often tossed about without any proof.
Second - the Catholic Church has never had an issue with celibate gays, so having gay priests who are celibate would, in fact, be consistent with church teaching.
Note - I am not Catholic and my own denomination ordains openly gay persons and permits gay marriage.
Second - the Catholic Church has never had an issue with celibate gays, so having gay priests who are celibate would, in fact, be consistent with church teaching.
Note - I am not Catholic and my own denomination ordains openly gay persons and permits gay marriage.
1
Not unusual, considering that at least 60% of Catholic priests are gay.
12
You neglected to cite the source of the 60% figure you name. Unsupported by documentation, it is merely an opinion.
1
Never understood Catholic views on homosexuality when so many priests are gay.
14
Rules are objective, while people are fallible. Adultery, for example, is objectively wrong, yet many Catholics -- as well as many Jews, Methodists, etc. -- have committed adultery, yet no one is clamoring for those religions to modify their teachings on adultery. Further, the ecstatically positive reaction to this article by many Times readers baffles me, given that the Catholic Church has not changed its rules about gay marriage. If anything, I'd expect people to respond to all this, "Welcome to our church, gay people" stuff to seem patronizing, in light of the fact that the Catholic Church remains firm in its commitment to defining marriage as "one man to one woman" and in its opposition to sex outside of marriage. The current Bishop of Newark seems happy to label people as homosexual, yet belongs to a church that insists that the only manifestation of homosexuality is -- what? Calling oneself "gay"? Listening to show tunes? Because the Bishop isn't going to marry men to men and women to women. Why aren't any of the Times readers pointing that out? It's bizarre. And any Times reader who thinks Pope Francis doesn't uphold those beliefs is benighted. The Pontiff's "Who am I to judge?" airplane comment was about compassion for peoples' weaknesses, not official Church teachings.
As a gay, Catholic physician in a 29 year marriage, my reaction to this article is "too little, too late" for my husband and myself. We've been received with kindness, respect, openness and equality for more than two decades in every part of our life that matters: our families (in two nations), civic communities, our coworkers, my patients and their families. I stopped years ago trying to bend my life to the prejudices of Catholic leaders (lay Catholics have treated us better) and spare people the burden and consequences of their own bigotry. For us, the Catholic Church is simply irrelevant. (We are currently traveling in Europe and, to judge from the empty pews at Sunday and daily Mass, it's pretty irrelevant for non-gay Catholics, too. A Church which has a message that could and should be leading the way is, instead, being dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th -- not 21st -- century.)
46
I'm with you Douglas from Oregon ...
With all those empty pews each and every week ...
They need all the help they can get ....
With all those empty pews each and every week ...
They need all the help they can get ....
3
If you choose to ignore the teachings of Scripture, as you indicate you have, you can pretty much do anything you want in this life. In essence, you have made yourself your own god. However, the Bible says that choice will not serve you well in the life to come.
4
There may be empty pews in Europe - although visitors to Europe's famed Cathedrals tend to go during non-Mass hours - but that's not the case here. At least, not in the NY tri-state area or New Orleans or the West coast where I've attended Mass in recent years.
I have visited St. Peter's and other churches in Italy and found them full, too - not just with tourists but with people participating in Mass, or quietly praying outside of Mass times. And very long lines for confession at St. Peter's.
Friends who've traveled recently to Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Germany, Poland, and Ireland have reported similar experiences. To some, this was a surprise, as they expected the opposite.
I have visited St. Peter's and other churches in Italy and found them full, too - not just with tourists but with people participating in Mass, or quietly praying outside of Mass times. And very long lines for confession at St. Peter's.
Friends who've traveled recently to Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Germany, Poland, and Ireland have reported similar experiences. To some, this was a surprise, as they expected the opposite.
2
Long has the clergy accused laity of being cafeteria Catholics on birth control. But permitting Eucharist reception by active gays is clergy cafeteria Catholicism. This doesn't help gays at the deepest level of their being. If Romans chapter one is only from Paul, then...no problem. But if Romans one is from a being much greater than Paul, then these officiating priests will regret this deeply in the long run. Christ said "sin no more" to several people in the Bible. Some priests cannot endure the loneliness of saying that phrase...and endure that momentary isolation in standing up for Romans one.
7
If LGBT people were born that way, as determined by God, how could that unchangeable characteristic possibly be considered a sin keeping them from full participation in the church? God does not create people with a built-in sin such as that. It would make a mockery of God and the right to fully worship.
1
At this point, they'd be foolish not to be welcoming. Period.
7
True. The Catholic brand has been wrecked by the cruelty and heartlessness of Catholic clergy. They must try to resurrect the brand, but it won't be easy. Perhaps a few tips from the likes of Wells Fargo, BP, and Putin Covert Ops.
One bloom does not a Springtime make, but this is a hopeful sign by Cardinal Tobin.
6
Reverend Gahl stated that he hopes "Cardinal Tobin challenged them . . . to live according to the teachings of Jesus." The teachings of Jesus do not include a condemnation of homosexuality.
20
to avoid confusion: “there are absolutely no grounds for considering homosexual unions to be in any way similar or even remotely analogous to God’s plan for marriage and family.” (Francis, Laetitia Amoris)
8
Please send me a copy of God's plan, I'd like to read it.
10
It's called The Bible.
You ought to look it up sometime.
You ought to look it up sometime.
1
Wow! Truly a great step forward! Pope Francis is a Jesuit, long the closest thing to a progressive mind in the church. May these truly Catholic values be embraced by all indefinitely. Amen!
6
There is nothing new to see here. What has really changed? Nothing has kept LGBT parishoners from attending mass before, and the church have not changed their doctrines regarding LGB as being 'intrinsically disordered', and trans folk as perpetuating 'gender ideology' (as well as being mentally ill). Putting a friendly face on it and asking us to embrace our persecutors is ridiculous and insulting.
What I find ironic is that it is the Catholic church who is intrinsically disordered: sex and financial scandals, actively organizing and campaigning in the political arena against LGBT/human rights; it is they who perpetuate a gender ideology that has no correspondence to reality. Who are they to interfere with non-Catholics in our own self-determination? Why would we willingly enjoin with this dehumanizing, backward institution?
The Catholic church will not hear anything different that it hasn't heard before from its LGBTQ parishoners— for decades!— and the church has the same access to research the rest of us have.
How dare they think that we must negotiate our humanity?
What I find ironic is that it is the Catholic church who is intrinsically disordered: sex and financial scandals, actively organizing and campaigning in the political arena against LGBT/human rights; it is they who perpetuate a gender ideology that has no correspondence to reality. Who are they to interfere with non-Catholics in our own self-determination? Why would we willingly enjoin with this dehumanizing, backward institution?
The Catholic church will not hear anything different that it hasn't heard before from its LGBTQ parishoners— for decades!— and the church has the same access to research the rest of us have.
How dare they think that we must negotiate our humanity?
7
The Opus Dei talk about homosexuality being super bad is funny to me. Paul mentioned homosexuality a few times as an example of stuff not to do, but it was pretty much just repeating the basic homophobia of the time, and lumping homosexuality in with other stuff that people didn't like. It's been a while, but I don't think Jesus mentioned it. In the grand scheme of things, sex is way down the list of takeways for any rational Bible reader. Stay married, yep, got that... but beyond that... As Francis has moved away from moral condemnation and towards ministry, you know, helping your neighbor and the stuff Jesus *actually* spent time on, it's terrifying for the OD crowd. Can you imagine a church that was partially steered by gay and lesbian lay people?
5
and, Jesus had a "thing" for the "Beloved Disciple" - what's up with that?
1
The Church should open its doors to not just homosexuals but also to the homeless. Jesus actually did teach about welcoming the poor in the christian community and space. Does Cardinal Tobin ever do a homeless mass welcoming homeless people into his gold gilded church? Why this special focus on gays?
3
Pope Francis is the best thing that has ever happened to the Church.
6
I left the church because it did not want me. I was the young woman who played the guitar in our Saturday folk mass for our Congregation in the 70s. When my triplet niece and nephews were born, the Bishop of Nassau county that presides over the Chapel in the hamlet of Carle Place, NY made sure I could not be a Godmother to them because I am a lesbian. Do I want to come back and express my spirituality if the Bishop in my area of upstate NY, where I now live, welcomes me? You bet'cha!
a horrible shame and will have judgement according to God.
At last I rejoice that the LGBT+ community is recognized in dignity, maturity in worship, validity in prayer, & love in service to our Lord Jesus! Hallelujah!
2
Well, no, Ron, not at all.
The church still thinks being lesbian, gay, and bisexual as being 'intrinsically disordered' and trans folk as mentally-ill people deluded by 'gender ideology', as 'dangerous as nuclear weapons'.
That is not dignifying, it is disingenuous and deceitful.
I realize that many catholics would say that LGBTQ folk should be grateful for those little crumbs of 'acceptance', but the rest of us refuse to continue to be demonized and dehumanized.
The church still thinks being lesbian, gay, and bisexual as being 'intrinsically disordered' and trans folk as mentally-ill people deluded by 'gender ideology', as 'dangerous as nuclear weapons'.
That is not dignifying, it is disingenuous and deceitful.
I realize that many catholics would say that LGBTQ folk should be grateful for those little crumbs of 'acceptance', but the rest of us refuse to continue to be demonized and dehumanized.
4
"Who am I to judge?" This rhetorical question by Pope Francis says so much and, as Cardinal Tobin's leadership demonstrates, means so much. I believe now we will be able to heal a terrible wound in the Roman Catholic Church. To those with doubt, I ask you to answer another simple question: Why are you Catholic?
1
I hoped that someone interviewed for the article would explain to me exactly what the mysterious expression "homosexual lifestyle" means. Does my "lifestyle" qualify or not? I'm not even sure I have a "lifestyle".
The Catholic Church officially deems women to be second-class citizens and inferior, incapable of serving any leadership role, only because they are women. (!) How does anyone who believes in equality take this institution seriously?? Why does anyone support them or pat them on the back when they make these calculated overtures to paint themselves as "progressive" when every single day just by maintaining their structure the Catholic Church is oppressing women?! It blows my mind! Catholics please put your money elsewhere and let this oppressive institution go the way of the dinosaurs already!
11
This claim of "women's inferiority" in the Catholic Church is totally ridiculous. Catholic women have taken on leadership roles, serving the poor and marginalized of society, and have been recognized as great saints and role models. Examine the life and work of St. Teresa of Calcutta, St. Katharine Drexel, St. Marianne Cope, St. Catherine of Siena, St. Frances Xavier Cabrini, St. Joan of Arc, and St. Margaret Clitherow, and you will readily identify them as leaders who recognized problems in the times and places in which they lived and dedicated their lives to solving them.
1
Being homosexual is not condemned in the Bible, but having homosexual intercourse is condemned in no uncertain terms, as is heterosexual intercourse outside of marriage. The New Testament says that, in a marriage, the partners are to give their bodies to one another in union. Since the Bible prohibits same-sex union/intercourse, that automatically negates the possibility of biblically-sanctioned marriage in the church of Jesus. The only way around those restrictions is to disregard the words of the Bible. Let's hope the Catholic church does not go that route, since it does not have the authority to do so. This issue is a clear cut example of Christians having to make a choice between man made laws and the Law of God as defined in Scripture.
8
Homosexuality is not condemned in the Bible. This is a misinterpretation that Catholic and Christian churches have relied on since the forming of Christianity. The facts do not give credence to your statements. You have switched the Law of God and man-made laws around.
5
Not enough space here to list the many biblical directives that are routinely ignored by modern-day Christians, or the passages that contradict each other. The church asks gay people to turn their lives upside down in deference to a few obscure sentences, and they issue these proclamations while parading in robes of cotton-polyester blend, a clear violation of God's commandment to avoid clothing of two different types of fabric.
7
The Jewish law forbade that mixing of fabrics as a metaphor and it also mandated stoning gays and adulterers. All such specfically Jewish laws are abrogated by the new covenant for christians. But Romans one in the NT clearly says no to gay acts of both genders.
How is scripture from God? Samson is between two pillars that are so close together that when he pushes each to his left and right, the roof caves in and hundreds of his enemies are killed. A thousand years later, Simeon seeing the infant Christ says..." this child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel". What shape are you in if you have just pushed two columns to the right and left like Samson? You are in the shape of a cross. When thousands are baptised, they fall as God's enemies into the death of the old self and rise a new person from baptism. Samson wasn't about Samson.
The ark is the proportions of a fasting man's body and it has a hole in its side as Christ later did. The ark wasn't about the ark. Samson and the ark were veiled predictions of Christ.
How is scripture from God? Samson is between two pillars that are so close together that when he pushes each to his left and right, the roof caves in and hundreds of his enemies are killed. A thousand years later, Simeon seeing the infant Christ says..." this child is destined for the fall and rising of many in Israel". What shape are you in if you have just pushed two columns to the right and left like Samson? You are in the shape of a cross. When thousands are baptised, they fall as God's enemies into the death of the old self and rise a new person from baptism. Samson wasn't about Samson.
The ark is the proportions of a fasting man's body and it has a hole in its side as Christ later did. The ark wasn't about the ark. Samson and the ark were veiled predictions of Christ.
I went to a Jesuit high school located in a gay neighborhood in the early 80's. AIDS hadn't been named yet, but it was exploding in the local community. I watched and learned about social justice and compassion. The church where my Jesuit teachers said Mass held services for the gay community who were suffering this horrible plague. They were shut down and ordered by the Catholic hierarchy to discontinue directed outreach and services for gays. They were devastated. In viewing this struggle as a young man, seeing sick frail people abandoned by the church, I formed my views. It's a long road of attrition back from that.
17
A short time ago Pope Francis was quoted as saying that transgender people were as dangerous to humans as nuclear weaponry.
This is entirely immoral hate speech masquerading as freedom of religion. It actively promotes exclusion, hate, and discrimination while a huge percentage of its own priests are themselves gay. That they spout this Papist self-hating nonsense is a testament to their lack of spine and soul. It is a horror show of humanity, wholly anti-science, and this article just gives its decrepit views credence through a sheen of respectability. The damage they have done is incalculable, an outrage against humanity.
This is entirely immoral hate speech masquerading as freedom of religion. It actively promotes exclusion, hate, and discrimination while a huge percentage of its own priests are themselves gay. That they spout this Papist self-hating nonsense is a testament to their lack of spine and soul. It is a horror show of humanity, wholly anti-science, and this article just gives its decrepit views credence through a sheen of respectability. The damage they have done is incalculable, an outrage against humanity.
7
As a Jew married to a Catholic, I never understood why, although its widely known that there are gays on the altar, they couldn't be in the pews. I doubt I'll be here to see it, but I wouldn't be surprised if one day the Church segmented much like Judaism today. I doubt they'd want to risk another schism...let alone the loss of Americans' financial contributions...
1
So thrilled to see the church finally catching up to the messages and examples of Christ https://jasonjdotbiz.wordpress.com/2013/04/03/i-insert-your-name-cherry-...
This sentimentalist approach omits crucial teachings of Christianity and is not doing anyone a favor. Fr Gahl is correct. And folks, the Catholic Church always buries its undertakers. You can look it up.
1
Men who don't have sex get to tell other women and men who do have sex that what they do is very wrong , based on something those sexless men read in a book that is thousands of years old.
Welcome!
Welcome!
5
The truth is the truth no matter how old the source. The same outdated book admonishes people to love their neighbors. Is that admonishment also to old to be taken seriously?
1
Hope springs eternal.
3
If the Catholic Church practiced what it preached they would never have had to welcome back any original or potential members. But, like any other organization, whose foundation is steeped in hypocrisy, It now finds itself more or less begging for members ( and priests).
LGBT people should know better about the Church. There will be a slight left lean while Francis is in office, and that community will gain some traction. But once he's gone, the conservatives will take back whatever Francis "gives"
Why on earth would they want to be part of such an organization to begin with?The LGBT community is not going to change the Church or gain its universal approval .....Ever...
A better strategy is to ignore the Church, enjoy your life as much as possible, and watch the Church slowly implode on itself, as it eventually will do over time.
A house divided cannot stand.
LGBT people should know better about the Church. There will be a slight left lean while Francis is in office, and that community will gain some traction. But once he's gone, the conservatives will take back whatever Francis "gives"
Why on earth would they want to be part of such an organization to begin with?The LGBT community is not going to change the Church or gain its universal approval .....Ever...
A better strategy is to ignore the Church, enjoy your life as much as possible, and watch the Church slowly implode on itself, as it eventually will do over time.
A house divided cannot stand.
13
I'll feel more welcome in the institutional church when it stops firing its employees for being LGBTQ or for marrying a same-sex partner. And, I'll feel more welcome when the bishops and other clergy stop fighting my civil rights and protections in the public policy arena. That would be a start.
42
It's astounding that there are people in this day and age still calling homosexuality a "lifestyle". As if all homosexuals lived the same lifestyle. As if homosexuality is a choice. Pope Francis lost me when he published his latest encyclical stating that homosexual relationships in no shape or form could be compared to heterosexual ones. Really? Sounds pretty judgmental to me.
19
As a catholic who's been watching my church protect pedophile priests and exposing our young children to these horrific rapists, excluding the LGBT community and narrowing the true meaning of what this faith actually is, it is refreshing to hear about this wonderful Cardinal Tobin and his message of inclusion.
The "strict" priests, bishops and cardinals will need to adjust their collars; a new day is here. As a heterosexual woman, it has angered me that the clergy, for the most part, have tried to co-opt Christ. If you didn't fit their conception of what a catholic should be, you were excluded.
If the young, sparsely numbered priests who do the day-to-day work of Christ would see fit to help extinguish this air of elitism that has kept the church in the dark ages for centuries, we could have a shot at a church as Christ had designed; one of love, compassion, no matter who or what you are. This is the message of MY church-the cross portraits a man with his arms stretched completely out, not narrowed to include just a select few.
I will help to push the tide in this new direction of love and inclusion, because that is what my parents taught me about Christ. And that is the true Christ we need to remember, and most importantly, emulate.
The "strict" priests, bishops and cardinals will need to adjust their collars; a new day is here. As a heterosexual woman, it has angered me that the clergy, for the most part, have tried to co-opt Christ. If you didn't fit their conception of what a catholic should be, you were excluded.
If the young, sparsely numbered priests who do the day-to-day work of Christ would see fit to help extinguish this air of elitism that has kept the church in the dark ages for centuries, we could have a shot at a church as Christ had designed; one of love, compassion, no matter who or what you are. This is the message of MY church-the cross portraits a man with his arms stretched completely out, not narrowed to include just a select few.
I will help to push the tide in this new direction of love and inclusion, because that is what my parents taught me about Christ. And that is the true Christ we need to remember, and most importantly, emulate.
8
The Catholic Church has done much psychological and emotional damage through the years. The institution inflicts deep wounds with their condemnations and pronouncements of damnation. I have no hope that this behemoth can change in any real or meaningful way. Only way I'll think a miracle has happened is if the Catholic Church acknowledges the equality and full dignity of women and ordain female priests.
11
In 2000, I participated at a GALA (international gay chorus) convention with thousands of other singers and dancers in San Jose. One Sunday morning I walked into a Catholic church that was holding an animated talk show-style service is Spanish with many excited children in attendance. The priest explained who all these guests were to their city and that they should all be welcomed. I was very moved.
4
To be welcomed in off the street is not the same as participation. They want to convert you. For you to actually be and live as gay, not just talk about it, but express your literal humanity, is a sin of the first order to them. You have been made a fool from kind words that shield a vile doctrine.
3
If the Catholic Church would just come forward and say We've been against contraception because we want more Catholics in the world, and we - er - haven't really minded that they generally can end up impoverished from having too many children, that would go a long way to restoring their credibility with me. Just a little honesty.
If they could say, We've been against homosexuality, because we are a bit uptight and sexually repressed, that would help, too. And divorce? What God has joined, let no man rend asunder - who said God joined them?
I do believe that the Catholic Church's teachings can give us pause to consider others before we act, marriage is a great concept for all (or some form of commitment) - especially parents, and Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air, but all-in-all - I didn't find a lot of honesty in the Catholic Church growing up in it.
Just be honest.
If they could say, We've been against homosexuality, because we are a bit uptight and sexually repressed, that would help, too. And divorce? What God has joined, let no man rend asunder - who said God joined them?
I do believe that the Catholic Church's teachings can give us pause to consider others before we act, marriage is a great concept for all (or some form of commitment) - especially parents, and Pope Francis is a breath of fresh air, but all-in-all - I didn't find a lot of honesty in the Catholic Church growing up in it.
Just be honest.
While everyone should strive to "live in accordance with the teachings of Jesus", I don't recall reading admonishments against homosexuality in his statements in religious texts. Yes, all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. But the church that we carry in our hearts will guide each to salvation. Opening doors, minds, and hearts to love and forgiveness will show the way. Indeed, who are we to judge?
3
This very small improvement in the Catholic Church's treatment of LBGTQ people is hardly a miracle, and it was not brought about by God. It is the result of gay Catholics standing up for their rights and living their lives openly for decades. It is the result of the continuing work of DignityUSA and similar organizations within the Church. It is the result of the actions of a few brave priests and other individuals within the church hierarchy. And it is a result of the shifting politics within Catholicism.
The Catholic Church has been, and continues to be, virulently homophobic. The harm it continues to do to gay people, especially its own believers, is massive. Although there are worse denominations, such as the Mormons and most of the Protestant fundamentalists, there are certainly much better denominations.
A true miracle would be for the Catholic Church to shed its harmful dogma and become actively supportive of the dignity and rights of LBGTQ individuals. Then I might believe that God was involved.
The Catholic Church has been, and continues to be, virulently homophobic. The harm it continues to do to gay people, especially its own believers, is massive. Although there are worse denominations, such as the Mormons and most of the Protestant fundamentalists, there are certainly much better denominations.
A true miracle would be for the Catholic Church to shed its harmful dogma and become actively supportive of the dignity and rights of LBGTQ individuals. Then I might believe that God was involved.
12
The teachings of Jesus are plain and simple and quite straightforward: Love God and love your neighbor. Hatred and bigotry are not acceptable. Bishop Tobin's initial gesture of welcome is perfect and long overdue. We are all sinners. Who are we to judge?
107
We are not to judge one another, but as believers we are commanded by Jesus to obey His commandments (the Word of God) as an expression of our love for Him. One of those commandments prohibits men in the church from having same-sex intercourse. If we as a church love Jesus, we will obey Him. Those who deny what the Bible teaches about this matter are showing hatred of Jesus.
1
In whose image are gays created?
It is written 'Judge not lest yea be judged and found wanting'.
It is written 'Judge not lest yea be judged and found wanting'.
2
Dan Bruce - Which commandment are you referring to?
Do you live by all of the other rules in the bible, not eating shellfish, wearing blended fabrics etc.?
Do you live by all of the other rules in the bible, not eating shellfish, wearing blended fabrics etc.?
1
My small Roman Catholic church in Atlanta is one of those individual parishes that has been welcoming LGBTQ members for decades—many of them are now married, and I have taught their children in Sunday School. They are leaders in nearly every one of our parish ministries, including the parish council. Each year, our church proudly hosts a booth at the Pride Parade. I suspect that our LGBTQ members outnumber their straight counterparts, although I am not sure—we don't keep score. I also suspect that our church is one of our archbishop's (Wilton Gregory) favorites. He celebrates Mass with us quite frequently, compared to his predecessor. Everyone deserves to worship as they see fit. I am grateful to leaders such Archbishop Gregory, Cardinal Tobin and Pope Francis who are willing to "come out of the closet," as it were, to support LGBTQ Catholics, who are, in my experience, some of the most dedicated members of our worldwide church.
30
In America, the undeniable truth is that many who practice the Catholic faith are "cafeteria Catholics." Serious in their belief, but not necessarily in rule-following. Sitting next to me in daily Mass are people I know to be divorced (and some remarried); a woman I know who had an abortion; at least one gay. I don't dare say "Thank God I'm not one of those," for though I may not have walked their particular paths, I've done enough to fully disqualify me from legally receiving the Host. And yet I do, for the God I know is a God of love and forgiveness. One of my highlights of my Catholic walk was a priest who once said after Confession "Go and sin less often." We need more of this thinking.
50
A huge step forward, as the article states, unthinkable just a few years ago.
11
So now as they spit in your very face with hateful doctrine, they will ask you inside the door to do it, and you call this progress? This is voodoo so far out of date and time it makes me blush to know I'm human.
6
This is a start. I recently wanted to have my son baptized in the Church, but because my sister who I wanted to serve as his godmother lives (unmarried) with her long-time female partner, we were told she could not serve as his godmother. To say this was heartbreaking for my family is an understatement. It was a time when I wanted to bring my family back to the Church, and it was another reminder of why we left. The reason I love the Church is the social justice teachings, which I hope to instill in my son. I hope we can do so with a Church community that is truly welcoming.
34
Why would you ever subject your self to this virulent cancer of dogma and then act offended? What did you think it thought of you? That you give it any money or moral support only perpetuates its hate.
So sorry to hear this. I encourage you to try another Catholic parish - perhaps one that has an active outreach to lapsed Catholics and/or an LGBTQ ministry. Different pastors and parishes have different degrees of openness or conservative attitudes.
4
Thank you! I've heard this, and we are definitely looking around. I appreciate it.
2
The Catholic Church needs to realize that if it doesn't modernize, it's going to continue its approximately 500-year trend of losing power. (In a way, I hope it doesn't modernize.)
13
I heard someone say once: isn't the goal of the Church to make itself obsolete? Thank you.
2
It would be great if the Catholic Church's social justice teachings were used to fight the Evangelical message. The social justice message of the Church is extremely important in guiding the morals and values of the congregation - acceptance of others, care for the poor and sick, educate children, care for the elderly - in other words look out for each other. Really not much on abortion, LGBT or contraception. On the other hand, the Evangelical message is about wealth, ostracizing those who disagree, anti contraception, abortion, LGBTs and just about anyone not white, male or straight. There is an enormous vacuum that is begging the Catholic Church to fill, as long as it does not focus only on abortion.
80
Good. Now we need the church to allow contraception and women priests, as well as married priests of both genders.
3
Catholics believe in male dominance; anti-LGBT; anti-choice; anti-birth control; anti-stem cell research; anti-woman. It is retrograde to the point of extinction.
9
Looking forward to reading the book. I love building bridges and this one is well due.
A note, after having read Ratzinger's letter, is that he warns against homosexual acts, but encourages open doors to all.
Another point is that in the marriage courses or talks we have attended in the Church, and that includes family masses, no one spoke against the dangers of contraception. And there are. Do I welcome the open door of masses for all. Healthy (I do not like another adjective) sexual encounters comes with conversion.
I would say that at some point New Ways will see their claims for active homosexuality to be outside the Church. No one has told them so far that their claims are Catholic. Silence and welcome is the way. God dies the rest.
The welcome is wonderful.
How many of us can "throw the first stone"?
A note, after having read Ratzinger's letter, is that he warns against homosexual acts, but encourages open doors to all.
Another point is that in the marriage courses or talks we have attended in the Church, and that includes family masses, no one spoke against the dangers of contraception. And there are. Do I welcome the open door of masses for all. Healthy (I do not like another adjective) sexual encounters comes with conversion.
I would say that at some point New Ways will see their claims for active homosexuality to be outside the Church. No one has told them so far that their claims are Catholic. Silence and welcome is the way. God dies the rest.
The welcome is wonderful.
How many of us can "throw the first stone"?
4
The first thing that jumped out for me in this article were the pronouns used by Cardinal Tobin and some of the Roman Catholic clergy quoted: "They", "Them", and "Their" in reference to the LGBT community. "They" as in "those people over there" is a far cry form "us" as in our brothers and sisters, our sons and daughters, aunts and uncles, neighbors, and teachers.
The second that jumped out for me was the emphasis on the old "we are all sinners" and no mention of "respecting the dignity of every human being as being created in the image and likeness of God."
The third thing that jumped out for me was that all the authorities quoted were male and clergy. Where are the voices of the laity - both male and female? Surely the parents, brothers and sisters of gay people might have some voice in how their children and siblings are treated.
There are reasons why the pews are empty. Many of us have found more fertile spiritual ground in the Episcopal Church or elsewhere.
The second that jumped out for me was the emphasis on the old "we are all sinners" and no mention of "respecting the dignity of every human being as being created in the image and likeness of God."
The third thing that jumped out for me was that all the authorities quoted were male and clergy. Where are the voices of the laity - both male and female? Surely the parents, brothers and sisters of gay people might have some voice in how their children and siblings are treated.
There are reasons why the pews are empty. Many of us have found more fertile spiritual ground in the Episcopal Church or elsewhere.
102
Fr Bill. I agree with your criticisms. But expecting the Church to be pitch perfect immediately is expecting too much. "Paradise now" is a strategy that rarely works. You are right on each point though.
10
"But expecting the Church to be pitch perfect immediately is expecting too much"
What?? Are you saying that the presence of gay and lesbian people is something new? There's nothing immediate about it.
What?? Are you saying that the presence of gay and lesbian people is something new? There's nothing immediate about it.
1
Fr. Bill, this article does not include a complete transcription of Cardinal Tobin's entire homily, so why make any assumptions about what else he did or didn't mention? How about his statement "I am Joseph, your brother" - is that message not clear to you?
"We are all sinners" is something that needs to be repeated, as there are still too many people in all denominations who deem same-sex relations - or even just being gay - as somehow more egregious than any other sins, including straight sexual sins.
Actually, it's the fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants who are loudest in condemning the LGBTQ community, not the Catholic Church.
As for "empty pews" - I'm an active Catholic and see few empty pews. What I do see are even early-morning weekday masses that are well-attended in many parishes - and many Sundays, churches are packed.
I also see active ministries and outreaches to the poor, homeless, hungry, elderly, immigrants and refugees. LGBTQ members of our parishes and lay groups are often among the most active and respected participants in these ministries. And at least three large parishes in Manhattan alone have LGBTQ ministries.
Is the Catholic Church "perfect" in respect to our LGBTQ sisters and brothers? Of course not - no church is, because its members and leaders are human, and therefore imperfect sinners who need the grace of God.
We have a long way to go - but these are good steps.
"We are all sinners" is something that needs to be repeated, as there are still too many people in all denominations who deem same-sex relations - or even just being gay - as somehow more egregious than any other sins, including straight sexual sins.
Actually, it's the fundamentalist and evangelical Protestants who are loudest in condemning the LGBTQ community, not the Catholic Church.
As for "empty pews" - I'm an active Catholic and see few empty pews. What I do see are even early-morning weekday masses that are well-attended in many parishes - and many Sundays, churches are packed.
I also see active ministries and outreaches to the poor, homeless, hungry, elderly, immigrants and refugees. LGBTQ members of our parishes and lay groups are often among the most active and respected participants in these ministries. And at least three large parishes in Manhattan alone have LGBTQ ministries.
Is the Catholic Church "perfect" in respect to our LGBTQ sisters and brothers? Of course not - no church is, because its members and leaders are human, and therefore imperfect sinners who need the grace of God.
We have a long way to go - but these are good steps.
4
Kudos to the former Archbishop of Indianapolis, my home city. He is a compassionate man who does not care for the trappings of his high office and I thank Pope Francis for elevating him to "Red Hat" status. I wish Pope Francis a long Papacy, but I do have a successor in mind. He is on this page.
47
The Catholic Church has to grapple with how to apply church teachings to questions of liberty and equality in the 21st century. That's much easier said than done. The church needs to be introspective when reconciling past teachings and present pivot to inclusion.
However, if passions run too high on either side and this introspection is lost, the Catholic Church could undergo a bitter schism like those that have wracked so many Christian denominations during the last decade over LGBT inclusion.
The Church appears parochial and patriarchal to equality advocates, while those advocating for LGBT inclusion appear insensitive to the ancient sacramental life of the Church to traditionalists. These are deeply-held beliefs.
If Catholics are serious about LGBT inclusion and want to avoid a schism, the way forward involves both sides acknowledging the deep-seated beliefs of the other and using their common lens of Catholic teaching to bridge the divide.
Because this kind of critical-thinking discourse is so absent from our society, even among the highly-educated, it would be a breath of fresh air to see a loving, forgiving, and respectful dialogue grow between traditionalists and liberals in the church.
However, if passions run too high on either side and this introspection is lost, the Catholic Church could undergo a bitter schism like those that have wracked so many Christian denominations during the last decade over LGBT inclusion.
The Church appears parochial and patriarchal to equality advocates, while those advocating for LGBT inclusion appear insensitive to the ancient sacramental life of the Church to traditionalists. These are deeply-held beliefs.
If Catholics are serious about LGBT inclusion and want to avoid a schism, the way forward involves both sides acknowledging the deep-seated beliefs of the other and using their common lens of Catholic teaching to bridge the divide.
Because this kind of critical-thinking discourse is so absent from our society, even among the highly-educated, it would be a breath of fresh air to see a loving, forgiving, and respectful dialogue grow between traditionalists and liberals in the church.
29
You make an underlying assumption though: that avoiding a schism in the Church is something bad and something that should be avoided. You also suggest that a "critical dialogue" would lead to a compromise of sorts, when, in reality, a critical dialogue would likely work against traditionalists favor, as their beliefs are less rational.
3
Your wordy call to instrospecrion can be distilled thus: those being oppressed should take into consideration the deeply held ignorant beliefs and feelings of those doing the oppressing.
You mean those loving, forgiving and respectful traditionalists that sent "visceral hate mail" to Cardinal Tobin for having the audacity to welcome LGBT Catholics to the cathedral?
4
The Catholic Church has no choice but to embrace the 21st century values, which are kinder, fairer and easier to embrace. Refusing to do so would be the beginning of the end of the church as we have known it for so long.
It is a sclerotic body of men stuck in there their old world of privilege. There is only one person that can save the church from itself. That person is Pope Francis Francis.
Intelligent, compassionate, and believe it or not, logical too. He has to walk on eggs on a tightrope. I hope that he succeeds in reforming the church inside out. If he fails, it will be the end of the Catholic church. The only thing that will be missed is the beautiful cathedrals, the beautiful music and beautiful art which gave credence to the whole church in the first place.
It is a sclerotic body of men stuck in there their old world of privilege. There is only one person that can save the church from itself. That person is Pope Francis Francis.
Intelligent, compassionate, and believe it or not, logical too. He has to walk on eggs on a tightrope. I hope that he succeeds in reforming the church inside out. If he fails, it will be the end of the Catholic church. The only thing that will be missed is the beautiful cathedrals, the beautiful music and beautiful art which gave credence to the whole church in the first place.
34
How welcome the fresh air of inclusion versus exclusion. I am hopeful that this is the beginning of the end of the culture wars and the beginning of healing in the church and also for the whole world.
Jesus taught that these demons can only be driven out by prayer and fasting, for all the secularists please join in and help create a contagion of good to fight off the 'dark spirit' of conservatism that inhabits our world.
Jesus taught that these demons can only be driven out by prayer and fasting, for all the secularists please join in and help create a contagion of good to fight off the 'dark spirit' of conservatism that inhabits our world.
14
That dark spirit certainly comes in part from the church that protected men over and over who abused children. Even now they complain that it costs so much and is harming the church that so many people want to sue it. Perhaps they should be fasting and begging forgiveness.
2
Absolutely Sharon, I truly concur, the Bishops and clergy who covered up should engage in prayer and fasting and indeed beg for forgiveness also.
Will it be too little too late? Most everyone I know considers the Roman Catholic Church to be little more than a fancy reliquary, rather than a vessel for the good message of Jesus. Can these elderly males revive their brand without vacating it? Also, regarding this "welcome," the rubber hits the road when LGBT Catholics seek Roman Catholic marriage, family rights and employment as same-sex married people. Today, LGBT Catholics can enter the confessional and then slip into the Communion line (albeit with some scowls around them) but that is not a victory. To reframe: Pope Francis' welcome and Cardinal Tobin's welcome are sweet and preferable to hate, but what is of substance here?
56
WELL SAID!!!
Thanks.
Thanks.
3
"No one is accepted as they are." Exactly. They are held to a standard set by men who have denied themselves one of the essences of humanity, their sexuality. In some churches, by congregations who have segregated themselves by race and/or income.
22
In the early 60s John XXIII opened the doors and windows and fresh air swept through the Catholic Church. Love was here to stay - or so many thought.
Later a Polish Pope fearful of communism slammed those doors and the old angry vengeful church came alive - attacking Liberation Theology in Latin America and creating a catechism of don`ts.
Thankfully, Francis has opened the Church. Hopefully he will live long enough to get rid of the mean angry bishops who dominate much of the American church.
Later a Polish Pope fearful of communism slammed those doors and the old angry vengeful church came alive - attacking Liberation Theology in Latin America and creating a catechism of don`ts.
Thankfully, Francis has opened the Church. Hopefully he will live long enough to get rid of the mean angry bishops who dominate much of the American church.
164
Read the Catechism again and I think you'll find that Polish Pope found a lot more love in the Church than fear. Take this passage:
"God blesses those who come to the aid of the poor and rebukes those who turn away from them: 'Give to him who begs from you, do not refuse him who would borrow from you'; 'you received without pay, give without pay.' It is by what they have done for the poor that Jesus Christ will recognize his chosen ones. When 'the poor have the good news preached to them,' it is the sign of Christ's presence."
It's also worth noting the Catechism isn't the teaching of John Paul II, it is a compilation of all the Church's teachings
"God blesses those who come to the aid of the poor and rebukes those who turn away from them: 'Give to him who begs from you, do not refuse him who would borrow from you'; 'you received without pay, give without pay.' It is by what they have done for the poor that Jesus Christ will recognize his chosen ones. When 'the poor have the good news preached to them,' it is the sign of Christ's presence."
It's also worth noting the Catechism isn't the teaching of John Paul II, it is a compilation of all the Church's teachings
1
Your words are meaningless given the actions of the hierarchy. Vicious attacks on LGBT people, women and abused children are all too common. What's "worth noting" is that the Catholic Church is a derelict institution that drifts along in its own world that has nothing to do with reality.
2