I don't think its a coincidence that on the same day the NYT runs one story calling for the integration of NYC school based on a lottery system - allowing those that don't value education to ruin the ability to learn of those that do - and another story vilifying white flight.
Seems like they are setting us up to have NYC schools destroyed and then call us racists when we move out to send our kids to a better school.
Seems like they are setting us up to have NYC schools destroyed and then call us racists when we move out to send our kids to a better school.
25
"The answer is not simply shipping students elsewhere but properly funding the schools for EVERY child."
you offer the usual failed solution of throwing more money at the problem. these monies in NYC end up in the already overpaid greedy child caretakers, whose title as teachers should be taken with a grain of salt.
you offer the usual failed solution of throwing more money at the problem. these monies in NYC end up in the already overpaid greedy child caretakers, whose title as teachers should be taken with a grain of salt.
3
Mayor de Blasio -Do as I say not as i do.
When this happens in Alabama or Mississippi, or North Carolina, it's racism. But when this happens in New York City, it's "We cannot change the basic reality of housing in New York City.”
When this happens in Alabama or Mississippi, or North Carolina, it's racism. But when this happens in New York City, it's "We cannot change the basic reality of housing in New York City.”
3
Meritocracy has become "segregation." We are all supposed to be equal even when we don't measure up intellectually, and when we don't work hard enough, by decree of the state. This sounds like communism 101 to me. Let's dumb down the school system, right? Sorry, but it seems only normal for the best high-school to desire and admit only the best students. How about accusing Google of segregation for hiring only the brightest IT job seekers?
17
Focus here is on "black and Latino". Why not also on Asians, who now represent large majorities in many of the city's best programs -- even when they too often come from poor homes?
Certainly, those one-day tests you so forcefully criticize have not acted as a barrier to huge numbers of poor Asian-American children who rose to become doctors, lawyers and businesspeople.
Perhaps it is a lot easier to keep repeating old narratives and bad prescriptions instead of dealing with the complex issues behind those inconsistencies.
Certainly, those one-day tests you so forcefully criticize have not acted as a barrier to huge numbers of poor Asian-American children who rose to become doctors, lawyers and businesspeople.
Perhaps it is a lot easier to keep repeating old narratives and bad prescriptions instead of dealing with the complex issues behind those inconsistencies.
24
It is the responsibility of parents and children to inform themselves of the options available to their child . Failure to do that is completely due to the parents' and child's utter incompetence.
8
As always, lots of comments stating the obvious: poor parenting.
Yeah okay, so what? The problem to be solved isn't "who can point fingers at to blame for the failure of the system?" The problem is, how can we turn the system into a success? Solutions have to be practically doable -- and we can't legislatively create good parents. That's why the discussions of this issue tend to focus on ways to change the school experience. It's something we can actually put into practice and measure over time. That's not to say that we can't in some way incentivize parents as well. But if you already don't realize or don't care that your child is likely doomed to a life of poverty because of poor habits in childhood, then, say, tax credits aren't going to have much of a motivating effect.
And let's face it, many people think that if you're a bad parent, then your kids deserve what they get. Too bad for them and their future. The problems with that are whole neighborhoods not living up to their potential, whole generations mired in poverty and crime, and in the end we all pay for this with a permanently lower standard of living, with fewer doctors, scientists and engineers, and with creating pockets where terrorism, disease and social unrest can take root. It might feel satisfying in the short term to moralize over the poor, but as a nation we need to focus on our long term future or we'll eventually see ourselves eclipsed by countries that care more about all their citizens.
Yeah okay, so what? The problem to be solved isn't "who can point fingers at to blame for the failure of the system?" The problem is, how can we turn the system into a success? Solutions have to be practically doable -- and we can't legislatively create good parents. That's why the discussions of this issue tend to focus on ways to change the school experience. It's something we can actually put into practice and measure over time. That's not to say that we can't in some way incentivize parents as well. But if you already don't realize or don't care that your child is likely doomed to a life of poverty because of poor habits in childhood, then, say, tax credits aren't going to have much of a motivating effect.
And let's face it, many people think that if you're a bad parent, then your kids deserve what they get. Too bad for them and their future. The problems with that are whole neighborhoods not living up to their potential, whole generations mired in poverty and crime, and in the end we all pay for this with a permanently lower standard of living, with fewer doctors, scientists and engineers, and with creating pockets where terrorism, disease and social unrest can take root. It might feel satisfying in the short term to moralize over the poor, but as a nation we need to focus on our long term future or we'll eventually see ourselves eclipsed by countries that care more about all their citizens.
5
Why is there no mention of the fact that "Asian-Americans" now make up over half of the yearly admissions to New York City's "specialized public high schools"?
16
I have taught at Stuyvesant HS for 15 years, and this is the first year I have not a single black child in my entire program. It's dispiriting, but it's a complicated issue. Not every child who gets into Stuyvesant is suited to the school, and many who do well on that one test do not have "what it takes" to make the school a good fit. I'm sure that there are students out there who might not get the highest score on the test, but who would take better advantage of the school's exciting student body, and who would use what is offered to the maximum. So, what's the solution? Many have suggested looking at some criterion other than the SHSAT score. Townsend Harris uses other measures, and their student body is terrific, and much more diverse. Either that, or Affirmative Action of some kind may be needed to integrate the selective schools. The problem, as Diane Ravitch says wisely and well, is poverty and intractable inter-generational failure, and HS is way too late to make a difference there. Ideally, a community school with dedicated (and educated!) teachers who reach out to families is the only answer.
Oh, and by the way--we could lose some of the ignorant administrators whose only mission it to trash teachers. Having taught 18,000 HS Latin classes, and 27 years of upper-level CUNY courses, I don't need some fool with a clipboard telling me I don't understand my profession. But that's another issue.
Oh, and by the way--we could lose some of the ignorant administrators whose only mission it to trash teachers. Having taught 18,000 HS Latin classes, and 27 years of upper-level CUNY courses, I don't need some fool with a clipboard telling me I don't understand my profession. But that's another issue.
17
Segregation is done by good old New York standards that is strict economic segregation. And it will not be changed. The south is responsibe
1
"The question of the yawning equality gap is: can you strive to keep people who are richer or more connected or more intelligent from trying to give their children more resources? "
is that what you really want? the UK once thought about banning private schools. perhaps in this country we should ban private tutoring.
as a little aside, Venezuela voted for equality. now they are equally poor and starving, except for President madurros daughter whose daughter is worth 4 billion dollars.
is that what you really want? the UK once thought about banning private schools. perhaps in this country we should ban private tutoring.
as a little aside, Venezuela voted for equality. now they are equally poor and starving, except for President madurros daughter whose daughter is worth 4 billion dollars.
9
I think New York should start by trying to educate the children better in the grades leading to high school so they won't fall behind or be unsuccessful in college. They should also use the lottery system to allow a diverse settings.
3
I live in a city that has built interdistrict magnet schools to effect voluntary racial integration pursuant to a court order that ruled de facto segregation unconstitutional. The scheme has worked -- up to a point. The magnet schools have succeeded in luring in some suburban white middleclass kids to mix with the overwhelmingly black and Hispanic kids who make up Hartford's public-school population. Many of those schools are high functioning -- but less than half of Hartford kids get placed in them. The rest are in neighborhood schools, many of which are languishing. (Admission to the magnet schools is solely by lottery.)
It's unsurprising that the magnet schools perform better, since their student body consists of suburban kids plus the city children of families best equipped to navigate a complicated school choice system. Kids from the most under-resourced families inevitably end up in the languishing neighborhood schools.
The elephant in the room in Hartford is this: Can those neighborhood schools, with a population of the most challenged students -- students who in effect have been separated out from the pool that feeds the magnet schools -- ever truly approach the success of schools hand-curated for success? And I'd say that the elephant in the room for NYC is this: what will the educated/ white/wealthier parents do with their kids if you drop the selectivity and mix all kids together randomly? But right now, who is your system really designed to help?
It's unsurprising that the magnet schools perform better, since their student body consists of suburban kids plus the city children of families best equipped to navigate a complicated school choice system. Kids from the most under-resourced families inevitably end up in the languishing neighborhood schools.
The elephant in the room in Hartford is this: Can those neighborhood schools, with a population of the most challenged students -- students who in effect have been separated out from the pool that feeds the magnet schools -- ever truly approach the success of schools hand-curated for success? And I'd say that the elephant in the room for NYC is this: what will the educated/ white/wealthier parents do with their kids if you drop the selectivity and mix all kids together randomly? But right now, who is your system really designed to help?
3
Recent articles in the Times highlighted a couple New Jersey school districts with mixed student populations that are very successful. Why? Mainly due to very dedicated teachers, principals and staff, a willingness to see what works and change what doesn't, and a school environment that is safe, welcoming, and has a culture of inclusion and success.
These schools should be models for the country.
NYC has unique problems though - huge income inequality, housing segregation, and school segregation. Charter schools have made the problem worse.
Schools cannot make up for uninvolved parents. But they can provide the teachers and resources students need. We can start by paying teachers more to attract better teachers so tgey can afford to live in tge city. It's a question of priorities.
These schools should be models for the country.
NYC has unique problems though - huge income inequality, housing segregation, and school segregation. Charter schools have made the problem worse.
Schools cannot make up for uninvolved parents. But they can provide the teachers and resources students need. We can start by paying teachers more to attract better teachers so tgey can afford to live in tge city. It's a question of priorities.
3
If you keep old times as a frame of reference, we have come a long way in making education more equal. The recent experiments by rich people and interested parties are undermining the progress we have made. Countries like Singapore, Finland, etc. have made further improvements and the unfortunate thing is that we don't want to go by facts or learn from others but with $$$ and politics which are affecting any meaningful progress that can further our educational gains across all groups. Strengthening public school system, collaboration between teachers, schools, parents, and administrators are needed. Since the idea advocated in this article is another piecemeal solution, it will be another wasted experiment.
2
This appears to be a bogus issue. For the year 2009-2019 the percentage of white students and Asian students in NYC public schools was 14+ %. Most of these kids are likely concentrated in a few districts in Queens and Staten Island.
This is a non-issue. Stop blaming the failures of these kids on the schools. We all know why minority kids are failing in public schools. A large number do not speak English, many come form 1 parent families, many parents who show little interest in attending open school events or disciplining ther brats some of these students come to school unprepared, ready to roughhouse, I attended NYC public schools my whole life and got an excellent education. My mother taught in city schools for many years. In addition, I second the opinion that the majority of folks in the NYT management and live in NYC send their kids to private schools which makes this position terribly hypocritical.
This is a non-issue. Stop blaming the failures of these kids on the schools. We all know why minority kids are failing in public schools. A large number do not speak English, many come form 1 parent families, many parents who show little interest in attending open school events or disciplining ther brats some of these students come to school unprepared, ready to roughhouse, I attended NYC public schools my whole life and got an excellent education. My mother taught in city schools for many years. In addition, I second the opinion that the majority of folks in the NYT management and live in NYC send their kids to private schools which makes this position terribly hypocritical.
33
NYC schools used to work. That is, students got educated in a safe and orderly environment. Today, there are some schools that still function in the traditional way, while many others do not. So the question is, what accounts for the difference?
Schools that function have students whose families are in tact, and who value education. Schools that function have students who come to learn, and who know the rules and follow them. Schools that don't function have students who come from families that don't have a history of valuing education, and whose children are uninterested in learning, and are unable to understand and follow the rules that make an orderly learning environment possible.
Simply dispersing these disruptive students into functioning orderly and effective schools will deny those students who want to learn the opportunity to progress, and will result in them leaving.
No parent wants their child in an unsafe environment, and the city and the PC crowd ought to keep their hands off the functioning schools.
Schools that function have students whose families are in tact, and who value education. Schools that function have students who come to learn, and who know the rules and follow them. Schools that don't function have students who come from families that don't have a history of valuing education, and whose children are uninterested in learning, and are unable to understand and follow the rules that make an orderly learning environment possible.
Simply dispersing these disruptive students into functioning orderly and effective schools will deny those students who want to learn the opportunity to progress, and will result in them leaving.
No parent wants their child in an unsafe environment, and the city and the PC crowd ought to keep their hands off the functioning schools.
45
Well,
does it bother you that these " schools that still function in the traditional way", are populated by students from predominantly white and affluent families?
For one, the socialization of children from lower class families places less emphasis on education because these parents were likely socialized in the same environments that their offspring reside in today.
NYC schools used to be hyper-polarized, with rich kids having opportunities that far outweighed those found in poorer communities. Romanticizing a past where being white/rich granted automatic entry into class status and social opportunity is not befitting of a country known for equality and freedom.
I don't think that sorting children into schools by the status and social capital of their parents is a very equitable system, and this would only serve to perpetuate class and racial inequalities.
does it bother you that these " schools that still function in the traditional way", are populated by students from predominantly white and affluent families?
For one, the socialization of children from lower class families places less emphasis on education because these parents were likely socialized in the same environments that their offspring reside in today.
NYC schools used to be hyper-polarized, with rich kids having opportunities that far outweighed those found in poorer communities. Romanticizing a past where being white/rich granted automatic entry into class status and social opportunity is not befitting of a country known for equality and freedom.
I don't think that sorting children into schools by the status and social capital of their parents is a very equitable system, and this would only serve to perpetuate class and racial inequalities.
Perhaps if the teachers weren't afraid of disciplining the students it might help !
5
I'm a public school teacher and after 8th grade, I pulled both of my kids out of our urban district.
In the first place, they were developing very negative stereotypes about black and Hispanic kids because the only black and Hispanic kids they came into contact with were low, low income with chaotic families and behaviors to match. Wild, disrespectful, profane, irresponsible, and continually disruptive.
In the second place, the district completely sold out to testing corporations, TFA, charter promoters, etc. The kids were there to provide money to consultants and test sellers. No thanks.
We put both of ours in very selective private schools and both, after an initially rough time of confronting actual academic competition, rose to the extreme challenge; it was the best decision we made.
We tried the urban public schools where our kids were among a handful of white, middle class kids in their grade. But between the school board selling our kids out and the dumbing-down to meet the needs of completely unsupervised and unparented kids and kids who don't speak a word of English, we gave up.
In the first place, they were developing very negative stereotypes about black and Hispanic kids because the only black and Hispanic kids they came into contact with were low, low income with chaotic families and behaviors to match. Wild, disrespectful, profane, irresponsible, and continually disruptive.
In the second place, the district completely sold out to testing corporations, TFA, charter promoters, etc. The kids were there to provide money to consultants and test sellers. No thanks.
We put both of ours in very selective private schools and both, after an initially rough time of confronting actual academic competition, rose to the extreme challenge; it was the best decision we made.
We tried the urban public schools where our kids were among a handful of white, middle class kids in their grade. But between the school board selling our kids out and the dumbing-down to meet the needs of completely unsupervised and unparented kids and kids who don't speak a word of English, we gave up.
36
"In the first place, they were developing very negative stereotypes about black and Hispanic kids because the only black and Hispanic kids they came into contact with were low, low income with chaotic families and behaviors to match. Wild, disrespectful, profane, irresponsible, and continually disruptive."
there was no stereotyping. black and hispanic from "low low incomes" act that way. if they extrapolate from this reality to all Hispanics it is opportunity for you to teach them about logical errors.
there was no stereotyping. black and hispanic from "low low incomes" act that way. if they extrapolate from this reality to all Hispanics it is opportunity for you to teach them about logical errors.
5
Children with potential (high I.Q.) should never be overlooked.
14
The NYT like most progressives live in an identity politics bubble. Everything comes down to race, mention culture and attitude, one is regarded as an alt right supporter, rather than common sense. How come Asians kids coming from families with limited resource succeed more, well don't ask that question you will be called a racist by the those who live like NYT in the identity politics bubble.
40
Do Asians maintain stronger familial bonds with their relatives as opposed to African Americans? If true, then are Asian children more likely to benefit from their parents' experiences than is the case with African American children?
I would like to see the NYT write about this.
I would like to see the NYT write about this.
6
The upper west side liberals are fine with all attempts to level the playing field unless it Ed
fects their children.
fects their children.
26
It's quite clear from the comments here that the largely well educated and privileged readership of the NY Times has any interest in justice for racial minorities who are forced to endure inferior schools.
4
...and just what makes an "inferior" school?
If you have an inferior blueberry pie, chances are it was made with inferior blueberries.
26
" Once parents, socialists and politicians figure this out, we can get down to the task at hand"
once you have use the word socialist half the readers of the NYT will not consider your opinion to have any validity.
once you have use the word socialist half the readers of the NYT will not consider your opinion to have any validity.
3
"He recently proposed that the city get rid of the school entrance requirement system in favor of one that allows children to apply to any school in any area, with all admissions decided by lotteries."
I love this idea. The Ivy League should go first and start admitting each freshman class not on achievement or preparation, but on random chance via a lottery system.
If it's fair in NYC schools, then it's fair for colleges.
I love this idea. The Ivy League should go first and start admitting each freshman class not on achievement or preparation, but on random chance via a lottery system.
If it's fair in NYC schools, then it's fair for colleges.
34
Mayor de Blasio is not "dodging". He has made it clear that he wants policies to promote more diverse schools.
But Mayor de Blasio is also not doing what Donald Trump (and Trump's favorite charter school CEOs) do and making dishonest claims about being able to fix everything. He is being truthful. I guess being truthful only gets you attacks where words are twisted by the NY Times to make it sound like you have "dismissed" it as "unsolvable" and plan to give up. Shame on the NY Times editors for this outrageous hit job.
Since Bloomberg left and de Blasio came in, there has been a much more concerted effort to encourage diversity. The ONLY "broken promise" of choice is charter schools who claim that offering "choice" has led to diversity when it has led to a system where charters pick off the most motivated and able low-income children while using suspension and humiliation tactics to make sure the others are returned to public schools. Thus leaving a public school system that is disproportionately high needs students.
The answer is not simply shipping students elsewhere but properly funding the schools for EVERY child. That is what Mayor de Blasio wants to do while enacting policies to increase diversity. And most voters appreciate honesty more than the braggarts who make claims they have a perfect solution when they are simply blowing more smoke in order to attack a liberal politician.
I trust Mayor de Blasio far more than faux reformers offering "solutions".
But Mayor de Blasio is also not doing what Donald Trump (and Trump's favorite charter school CEOs) do and making dishonest claims about being able to fix everything. He is being truthful. I guess being truthful only gets you attacks where words are twisted by the NY Times to make it sound like you have "dismissed" it as "unsolvable" and plan to give up. Shame on the NY Times editors for this outrageous hit job.
Since Bloomberg left and de Blasio came in, there has been a much more concerted effort to encourage diversity. The ONLY "broken promise" of choice is charter schools who claim that offering "choice" has led to diversity when it has led to a system where charters pick off the most motivated and able low-income children while using suspension and humiliation tactics to make sure the others are returned to public schools. Thus leaving a public school system that is disproportionately high needs students.
The answer is not simply shipping students elsewhere but properly funding the schools for EVERY child. That is what Mayor de Blasio wants to do while enacting policies to increase diversity. And most voters appreciate honesty more than the braggarts who make claims they have a perfect solution when they are simply blowing more smoke in order to attack a liberal politician.
I trust Mayor de Blasio far more than faux reformers offering "solutions".
6
Having spent 35 years in the NYC public schools, I can promise you that pouring more money into failing schools will change nothing. Failing students enter kindergarten with severe deficits and until some magical method is devised to correct the problems among the poor, money will make no difference. The issues begin in utero.
4
Just curious, has Krugman or Kristof chimed in on this topic yet?
From http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/schools/data/default.htm
By the numbers: about 310 k African-American kids in the NYC public schools, about 160k whites in public schools with about 150k whites in private schools, primarily Catholic or Jewish, 31k African-American kids in private schools.
That's roughly 340 k African-American and 310 white kids total (sorry Hispanics, didn't get to you yet) in the school age population.
In the public schools about 100 k white kids go to schools that are at least 70% white. This is with a population of 160k white kids and 310 k African-Americans! That's some kind of racial segregation thing you have going on there.
We had similar patterns in Detroit, due to housing patterns and were ordered to institute a busing plan. When whites left the public schools to attend private schools they were accused of racism and white flight from the public school system.
So what will NY City do?
Will Krugman lend his voice to the drive for integrated schools in NY City? He hasn't shied away from addressing racial issues on the part of the deplorables. Please do write and tell how that drive for justice worked out for you - looking forward to it.
From http://schools.nyc.gov/AboutUs/schools/data/default.htm
By the numbers: about 310 k African-American kids in the NYC public schools, about 160k whites in public schools with about 150k whites in private schools, primarily Catholic or Jewish, 31k African-American kids in private schools.
That's roughly 340 k African-American and 310 white kids total (sorry Hispanics, didn't get to you yet) in the school age population.
In the public schools about 100 k white kids go to schools that are at least 70% white. This is with a population of 160k white kids and 310 k African-Americans! That's some kind of racial segregation thing you have going on there.
We had similar patterns in Detroit, due to housing patterns and were ordered to institute a busing plan. When whites left the public schools to attend private schools they were accused of racism and white flight from the public school system.
So what will NY City do?
Will Krugman lend his voice to the drive for integrated schools in NY City? He hasn't shied away from addressing racial issues on the part of the deplorables. Please do write and tell how that drive for justice worked out for you - looking forward to it.
2
When will it stop: The New York Times playing the political correctness card.
And, as usual with education, the Times'' approach is change the rules, or just throw out the rules.
So select schools like Stuyvesant get their share of dummies who won the lottery. When they complain about the high entrance requirements, the lottery winners (supported by the Times) say, "Throw out the rules."
The Times would sit down in a poker game and at the first loss say, "Change the rules." [And quote some expert professor from Columbia as authority.]
-Zin out
And, as usual with education, the Times'' approach is change the rules, or just throw out the rules.
So select schools like Stuyvesant get their share of dummies who won the lottery. When they complain about the high entrance requirements, the lottery winners (supported by the Times) say, "Throw out the rules."
The Times would sit down in a poker game and at the first loss say, "Change the rules." [And quote some expert professor from Columbia as authority.]
-Zin out
25
You know, Charles Murray probably had a point.
You really should check your assumptions before abandoning merit-based admission to rigorous schools.
You really should check your assumptions before abandoning merit-based admission to rigorous schools.
20
This is really offensive. Pls explain what you found of value in Murray's discredited theories.
Of course the NY Times would advocate the most destructive solutions possible.
Let's get rid of the few schools that students actually want to attend, so that all schools can be equally horrible. And then when all families who can afford it run to the suburbs, let's call them a bunch of racists.
Kudos, NY Times - yet another awful editorial!
Let's get rid of the few schools that students actually want to attend, so that all schools can be equally horrible. And then when all families who can afford it run to the suburbs, let's call them a bunch of racists.
Kudos, NY Times - yet another awful editorial!
44
Joey me ask, just out of curiosity, where does each member of the Editorial Board reside and who those have kids in school?
22
I've voted democrat my whole life but I am 100% sick of the white guilt thing. There is a sickening pathology is leftist culture which places the responsibility for the well being of blacks at everyone else's feet except for their own. Everyone is constantly expected to center their lives on blacks and more recently Muslims and illegal immigrants. Booker T Washington condemned this dependency over 100 years ago and it has become a systemic norm. It is so exploited at the expense of the rest of the country. It will not improve things. Let blacks stop with the pity party and take a good hard look at how their behavior negatively impacts others and their own community. Everyone is supposed to walk on eggshells around blacks all the time while they show complete disregard to how their treat others.
55
I totally agree with you. I'm a lifelong Democrat who's always voted for Democrats, but if it were't for Colorado's closed caucuses, I would change my voter registration. I don't want to belong to a party that hangs its hat on things like "white guilt" and cultural appropriation in college cafeterias.
5
If we adequately funded and staffed (re: supported and competitively paid our teachers) *all* of our public schools, not just the ones in affluent districts, then there wouldn't be any need for things like NYC's choice system.
8
Money will not solve this problem. Newark reached as much as 20k per student with grants and other additional funding by some metrics and still could not make a dent in the issue. Teachers leave for schools with less discipline and social-economic concerns. Focusing on teachers ignores the problem that study after study shows: the stress of poverty makes it difficult to focus on things such as educational attainment. Throwing money at the problem will not raise standards. Perhaps we can strip out all of the worthless overhead spent on IT. Routers, servers, printers, computers etc are very expensive. The basics of education such as reading, writing, and arithmetic do not require iPads and Chromebooks with the latest software. It requires only a pencil, paper, and some teachers. Drill students, enforce discipline, and watch learning happen. Dealing with the social ills at home is an entirely different matter.
1
Perhaps without lifelong near-100% pensions and healthcare, their paychecks could be more competitive. But total compensation already is average if not more.
I did not realize that NYC had a two tiered pay structure, where it pays teachers in failing schools less than what it pays teachers in succeeding schools. That cannot be legal. Why doesn't The NY Times write a story exposing this.
It's interesting to note that everytime there's an article written about how the education system is failing minority children, it only focuses on African-American & Latino children.
Why do we never talk about Asian-Americans and Asian immigrants with regards to this "issue"?
Despite Asians having the highest poverty rate in NYC based on the study by the NYC Center for Economic Opportunity (http://www.nyc.gov/html/ceo/html/poverty/poverty.shtml), they make the majority of the population at Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, Brooklyn Tech, etc. How do immigrants coming from China, Korea, etc. do well on standardized tests that's not in their native language or if they can't afford prep courses?
It seems some posters have started realizing the truth (or at least becoming more vocal): this is a cultural issue. If parents & homes do not promote education in the household, how can the children possibly develop that mentality on their own?
Why do we never talk about Asian-Americans and Asian immigrants with regards to this "issue"?
Despite Asians having the highest poverty rate in NYC based on the study by the NYC Center for Economic Opportunity (http://www.nyc.gov/html/ceo/html/poverty/poverty.shtml), they make the majority of the population at Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, Brooklyn Tech, etc. How do immigrants coming from China, Korea, etc. do well on standardized tests that's not in their native language or if they can't afford prep courses?
It seems some posters have started realizing the truth (or at least becoming more vocal): this is a cultural issue. If parents & homes do not promote education in the household, how can the children possibly develop that mentality on their own?
What do people like Eric Nadelstern think will happen if systems he advocates, like letting any student apply to any school and basing it all on lotteries, take hold? Because it seems to me that it would only make the problem worse, pushing even more people into private schools, the suburbs, or other areas altogether. What parent with the means to avoid it wants to risk their kid being the lottery loser who ends up at a school with metal detectors, gang fights, no money for extracurriculars, etc.?
19
If you really want to fix schools, put the teachers in charge. Let the teachers run the schools democratically, and put the administrators under them, so that the people that are actually in the room with the children, and know what works and what doesn't make the decisions, instead of administrators who got out of the class room as fast as possible, and politicians and editorial writers who have never taught, are not screwing everything up all the time.
Let the paper pushers do the paper work and the educations do the teaching.
Let the paper pushers do the paper work and the educations do the teaching.
19
Yes. Yes. Yes.
Thank you.
Thank you.
I am a product of NYC public schools and pre-open-admissions CUNY. My ticket out of poverty was the availability of standardized tests, which I took to demonstrate my ability to handle college level work, and to win a New York State Regents scholarship. These tests were the great equalizers in the 60's.
Both my parents encouraged reading and my mother would often come home from the supermarket (!) with a children's classic for me. Neither of my parents had any idea about how to navigate the school system, so I had to keep my wits about me and use our high school guidance counselor's wise advice.
Now, after many years teaching, I worry for those students who do not have aware, caring or invested parents, or whose parents are living under such duress that more active participation is difficult.
It is grossly unfair to dismiss the children because of their parents, as many do. The children did not choose their fate.
How do we level the playing field?
A good school system will insure early childhood education and intervention, because language development is key to eventual success. The first years are critical. If you can create an environment in which a child can develop expressive and receptive communication skills, and then to read well, he or she will be at a tremendous advantage. These programs must begin early--pre-kindergarten.
Our future depends, among other things, on the support we give to the most fragile among us.
Both my parents encouraged reading and my mother would often come home from the supermarket (!) with a children's classic for me. Neither of my parents had any idea about how to navigate the school system, so I had to keep my wits about me and use our high school guidance counselor's wise advice.
Now, after many years teaching, I worry for those students who do not have aware, caring or invested parents, or whose parents are living under such duress that more active participation is difficult.
It is grossly unfair to dismiss the children because of their parents, as many do. The children did not choose their fate.
How do we level the playing field?
A good school system will insure early childhood education and intervention, because language development is key to eventual success. The first years are critical. If you can create an environment in which a child can develop expressive and receptive communication skills, and then to read well, he or she will be at a tremendous advantage. These programs must begin early--pre-kindergarten.
Our future depends, among other things, on the support we give to the most fragile among us.
16
A simple solution would require every High School to admit at least 20% of
students by lottery. The so called "elite" High Schools could maintain high
standards but would also need to integrate students with diverse backgrounds and learning challenges.
students by lottery. The so called "elite" High Schools could maintain high
standards but would also need to integrate students with diverse backgrounds and learning challenges.
2
Bad idea. A student "lucky" enough to lottery into Stuyvesant but not academically qualified would struggle and ultimately flunk out. Can you imagine an average kid at the 50% being forced to consistently perform on the 97% or above...just won't work.
16
...and when you do this and the bottom 20% have insurmountable problems academically. Either the teachers and courses will be deemed discriminatory against whatever ethnic groups are in that 20% or many of the courses will be dumbed down to protect the Regents results and avoid that stigma.
Go back 45 years to the beginnings of Open Admissions in CUNY. What happened when these students failed freshman English? The English Departments and professors were called racists. They were accused of not understanding cultural diversity when they expected students to write in a literate manner. And a special cadre of teachers had to be found to pass these students through. The same thing happened in math.
Go back 45 years to the beginnings of Open Admissions in CUNY. What happened when these students failed freshman English? The English Departments and professors were called racists. They were accused of not understanding cultural diversity when they expected students to write in a literate manner. And a special cadre of teachers had to be found to pass these students through. The same thing happened in math.
21
As a teacher at Stuy, I can tell you first hand this is a bad idea. The DOE has forced us to increase enrollment, which, along with the rise of other desirable schools, lowered the quality of the "average" student. Yes, I still have the great opportunity to work with bright, motivated young men and women, but an increasing amount of my time is spent pleading with students (as well as their parents) who either can't or won't:
a) complete hw assignments
b) come for extra help
c) attend class every day
d) participate in class (including taking out materials, ie paper or a pencil for class)
Putting students who don't make the cut into a competitive school does not help to make up the information and academic experiences they've missed. Not all, but a number of these students result to cheating, simply giving up, or succumb to depression.
I think elementary education is where we need to focus as a community. Pay these teachers more, give them smaller classes, don't allow schools to engage in passing failing students to boost their rating, extend the school day, and find ways to get parents involved. Address problems when a student is only a grade level behind, not when they're potentially 4 grade levels behind.
a) complete hw assignments
b) come for extra help
c) attend class every day
d) participate in class (including taking out materials, ie paper or a pencil for class)
Putting students who don't make the cut into a competitive school does not help to make up the information and academic experiences they've missed. Not all, but a number of these students result to cheating, simply giving up, or succumb to depression.
I think elementary education is where we need to focus as a community. Pay these teachers more, give them smaller classes, don't allow schools to engage in passing failing students to boost their rating, extend the school day, and find ways to get parents involved. Address problems when a student is only a grade level behind, not when they're potentially 4 grade levels behind.
The Editorial Board notes disapprovingly and sadly that school choice in New York City "promotes class segregation," and many readers surely agree. But the editorial does not address the hard questions about education and class segregation: Where is the city or community or society where this is not true? Where are the model high schools that enroll students of varying levels of academic achievement? How do these schools serve the needs of unprepared students as well as those of students who are many grade levels ahead of their peers? Where are the diverse schools that don't track their classes? The issues raised by the editorial are heartbreaking, but where are the proposed solutions?
6
In 1952 I began kindergarten at PS 65 on Cypress Avenue in the Bronx. Two years later I attended PS 64 on Townsend Ave. near 175 Street in Mt. Eden. I didn't know about segregation. I just dutifully went to school. The kids were white as were the teachers and there were no blacks. Most of the kids were Jewish but I wasn't really aware of it from a religious sense. I was aware though that we shared common tradition and holidays and sometimes we went to the same temple or synagogue. My point is that we were in fact living in a different world than other kids. I wasn't aware of our apartheid or segregation until we moved to upstate NY. There I met non-Jewish kids and was indoctrinated into the world of Christmas, Christmas carols and Christian songs of celebrating war. Onward Christian Soldiers was a standard song as were songs of church and Christ. I didn't meet black children until 1959 in central PA in junior high school. I was naive, oblivious and totally unaware of the racism and hatred that existed. I was educated very quickly. The black kids were different. They didn't study. The girls were nasty and mean. The black boys didn't talk to us and were angry and standoffish. They attended the same school, sat in the same classes but they were a world apart from the white kids.
I don't believe that it is solely housing or educational policies or income inequality or that there is broken promise. I believe many people create their own problems, their own segregation and hate.
I don't believe that it is solely housing or educational policies or income inequality or that there is broken promise. I believe many people create their own problems, their own segregation and hate.
24
Perhaps true, but it's good to note that they might have had good reason to be angry at the government, pre Civil Rights Act. 60 years later (and untold hundreds of billions of dollars spent on welfare, education, "diversity", affirmative action, etc..?) Not so much.
2
what is the point of your one man trip down memory lane?
I went to NYC schools in the 1960's. Back then, the middle class went to the public schools throughout much of the city. Now the schools are segregated. I went to Bronx High School of Science to avoid Flushing High School and its thugs and gangs. I had friends who wnt to Jamaica High School. You wouldn't find middle class kids there now. The social decline of the family, the dumbing down of parents and students, and the general decline of the quality of public educational facilities all contribute to this mess. Like real estate, people of means will always gravitate towards the better schools and leave the poor behind. There will be complaints of segregated schools 50 years from now, if there is still such a thing as public education.
16
The reason for this is quite simple. If you are middle, upper middle class do you want to send your kids to schools that have metal detectors? Do you want your kids raised with kids from dysfunctional families (defined as families with at least one family member in prison, families totally dependent on Government handouts and families which came to the US illegally)? The answer is simply "over my dead body".
36
Made up story, this is all in their minds.
3
There are many ideas and proposals for how to improve the equality of educational opportunity. However, we need to start with a more fundamental question: is that really our goal? We say it is, but actions speak louder than words and the lack of serious action says maybe not. Those with wealth and advantage seek to pass that advantage on to their offspring, that is human nature. In today's difficult economy, where the middle class is shrinking and good jobs are harder and harder to get, everyone is worried about their children ending up with downward mobility. Most won't mind if those below them get a little more as long as their own position in the hierarchy doesn't change, but when push comes to shove, they don't really want more competition for their own children to face. In this scenario, people favor window dressing that appears to be doing something but really does little to change the status quo. Unless that changes, nothing else is going to.
3
Almost all parents strive to give their children the best opportunity possible. The most important thing is to make sure the essentials are taught. Even in small homogenous countries with a national curriculum like my husband's (South Korea) there are haves and have nots in the educational world.
Parents pour every cent into their children for tutoring and extracurriculars to give them an edge. The South Korean government briefly tried to stop that by outlawing private tutoring- that failed miserably.
The question of the yawning equality gap is: can you strive to keep people who are richer or more connected or more intelligent from trying to give their children more resources?
Parents pour every cent into their children for tutoring and extracurriculars to give them an edge. The South Korean government briefly tried to stop that by outlawing private tutoring- that failed miserably.
The question of the yawning equality gap is: can you strive to keep people who are richer or more connected or more intelligent from trying to give their children more resources?
4
To fix segregation in the public schools, improve the elementary and middle schools for all students, instead of reducing the selectivity of certain high schools. While this approach is more expensive than diluting the high schools, it will have a much better impact on society. America's underinvestment in poor neighborhood schools is a scourge of slavery that we can never seem to surmount. If we do not act, we consign generations of minority children to a lifetime of poverty.
7
I guess schools and housing patterns are linked. The couple (Indian-American) around the corner paid $900k (for a house worth $750k) so their daughter could walk to S.I. Tech. Numerous Chinese-American families are bidding up the price of homes in my neighborhood for the same reason.
10
prejudice.....is a function of the individual. It is necessary for survival. Too cold? too hot? Is it my friend? is it my enemy? First impressions are the lasting ones, and often the correct ones.
Racism.....is the system. It is NOT an individual function. It is the systemic function of our society, every society....based on that collection of individuals defined "norm". Those that dont fit the "norm" are treated differently.
In USA......if you're black.....you are the "minority" subjected to the short end of the stick at every turn.
But in order to overcome racism, we all need to start behaving as INDIVIDUALS.
There is no way to counteract systemic racism by classifying americans by RACE.
We have laws to protect individuals.....a law to protect ethnic/racial groups is...well.....UNamerican.
Our american tragedy is that, under the best intentions, we have lost our "individuality" in order to correct a systemic problem by re-inforcing exactly that problem......
Racism.....is the system. It is NOT an individual function. It is the systemic function of our society, every society....based on that collection of individuals defined "norm". Those that dont fit the "norm" are treated differently.
In USA......if you're black.....you are the "minority" subjected to the short end of the stick at every turn.
But in order to overcome racism, we all need to start behaving as INDIVIDUALS.
There is no way to counteract systemic racism by classifying americans by RACE.
We have laws to protect individuals.....a law to protect ethnic/racial groups is...well.....UNamerican.
Our american tragedy is that, under the best intentions, we have lost our "individuality" in order to correct a systemic problem by re-inforcing exactly that problem......
2
I just read a report about how a 24 year old woman ran over an 18 year old with her SUV with her child in the car in Chicago. She did this over a verbal altercation with a man.
Why on God's green earth would I want to live and send my school to people capable of doing that?
Why on God's green earth would I want to live and send my school to people capable of doing that?
To determine how desegregating schools could happen, we need to view who would be gaining seats in good schools and who would be losing. Politicians will feel tremendous opposition if the losing group is their constituency. This means that whites and asians will give up seats to black and hispanics groups. This will be a nasty fight! Who would touch this politically? Let's build more excellent neighborhood schools like Eleanor Roosevelt on the Upper East Side which is
often preferred to specialized HS now for many reasons including less travel. Honors programs are a joy for teachers to teach in their majors as opposed to formulaic AP course that don't foster creativity in students or teachers. Go local, go honors, go strong.
often preferred to specialized HS now for many reasons including less travel. Honors programs are a joy for teachers to teach in their majors as opposed to formulaic AP course that don't foster creativity in students or teachers. Go local, go honors, go strong.
7
Amen about the dumb AP courses! I finally taught a non-AP elective this year, and had happier kids and it was a far better course. The AP program is a sham. But so is all corporate education.
The legacy of historical problems such as poverty and racial discrimination have undeniably impacted the quality of the school system and resulted in racial imbalances.
However, the core question is whether the purpose of the public school system is to create social engineered diversity (at the possible expense of academic rigor) or to allow for a more meritocratic (albeit flawed) process in which objective measures such as test scores are used to identify those who can handle more academic rigor.
To compete on a global stage, U.S. students need the opportunity to interact with other motivated, talented students while tackling challenging coursework.
While families have differing levels of resources to devote to this effort, every student is provided the opportunity to compete for this chance in our public school system. It is up to each student (and his/her family) to make the right choices on a day to day basis.
I'm always struck by those high performing students in NYC whose families also qualify for the free lunch program. These talented kids are making certain choices every day that are helping them succeed, and they have earned the right to learn alongside other motivated students. I know of certain students whose families are extremely poor, and yet they gained admissions to these highly selective schools by studying hard. Don't cheat these deserving students out of the high quality of education that they strived so hard to attain.
However, the core question is whether the purpose of the public school system is to create social engineered diversity (at the possible expense of academic rigor) or to allow for a more meritocratic (albeit flawed) process in which objective measures such as test scores are used to identify those who can handle more academic rigor.
To compete on a global stage, U.S. students need the opportunity to interact with other motivated, talented students while tackling challenging coursework.
While families have differing levels of resources to devote to this effort, every student is provided the opportunity to compete for this chance in our public school system. It is up to each student (and his/her family) to make the right choices on a day to day basis.
I'm always struck by those high performing students in NYC whose families also qualify for the free lunch program. These talented kids are making certain choices every day that are helping them succeed, and they have earned the right to learn alongside other motivated students. I know of certain students whose families are extremely poor, and yet they gained admissions to these highly selective schools by studying hard. Don't cheat these deserving students out of the high quality of education that they strived so hard to attain.
12
I am the proud parent of two graduates of NYC public schools. I was a very active PTA member (and sometimes officer) of the PTAs at their elementary, middle and high schools. I organized fundraisers, potlucks and school community events, served on principal selection committees, lobbied in Albany, etc. I worked for the benefit of ALL the students who attended school with my children (who were from a wide range of economic levels), all while holding down a job. From Pre-K through 12th grade, my husband and I invested ourselves and our children in NYC public schools and it is deeply misguided for the NYT to characterize us as the wealthy beneficiaries of segregated system designed especially for us. If a member of your editorial board ever had a student in an NYC public school, and really worked to support the principal, staff and teachers, you would know that the educational bureaucracy bends to no one! Using a lottery system to assign high schools would not serve the higher or the lower achieving students. Focus on the elementary schools and early intervention to give all of our children a fair chance to compete in the high school process!
Is there any evidence that if you mix students just on race than they would learn better? If the point is that kids of one race learn better only when children of other race(s) are in the classroom than it is just a racist point. Ability should not depend on race, race is just a simplest factor for politicians to use for their own agenda. You can argue that all white schools are segregated too, or all Asian schools, or all Pakistani schools, or Finnish schools or any other schools.
I'm a teacher with 41 years experience in a high-performing suburban system, followed by 2 years in a private school. In our suburb, the quality of education became better as the variety of races, religions, languages other than English moved to our system. Why? At least half of the immigrant families were headed by highly-educated, professional parents. They were professors, medical researchers and doctors, entrepeneurs, and some that had endured much to come here and had very menial jobs that paid just enough to get by. It raised the bar for everyone. I believe that the best thing for all students would be a mix of high, middle, and low income, many races and many languages, students with special needs and students with high ability and drive to succeed. And each school should offer a variety of opportunities and courses, including strong science and math, humanities, arts,extra-curricular and co-curricular activities and, perhaps, career exploration. Of course, this diversity is practically impossible to guarantee for every student, given the way neighborhoods in large urban areas are segregated and many small towns have very little diversity. But it sure works well in my experience.
Childhood poverty drives educational outcomes.
When we as a society commit to a guaranteed minimum income for the adults in the family then we begin to blunt the larger effects of segregation. Racism is at play, as always. The larger influence is economic.
When we as a society commit to a guaranteed minimum income for the adults in the family then we begin to blunt the larger effects of segregation. Racism is at play, as always. The larger influence is economic.
1
"Segregation" is not race based. Schools in poorer neighborhoods have less tax money to draw on, but in many states, that's not an issue either. In MI, GA, and many other states school taxes no longer go to the community that paid them - they are given to the state and the state 'equalizes' the monies spent.
In ATL, we actually spend more per student than other communities. Student performance did not improve. What I find is that school boards across the nation, including ATL, look to technology to teach kids - give them iPads! Bad idea, not proven to teach or improve learning; wastes a ton of budget.
So, it's not about what we spend to teach kids, but what happens when kids are not pushed at home, by their parents, to learn and do homework and be proud with strong effort. I'm told it's the culture of Asians to do well in school. Asian kids are taught early by their parents that this is expected. Conversely, I'm told that the black culture does not promote learning, and that kids that try hard in school are made fun of. If your 6 or 8, that can stop you from effort as peers have a strong influence.
We must not accept 'culture' as an excuse for not doing well, we must not abdicate the parental responsibility needed for students to take learning seriously, and we must not blame teachers or pretend that technology is a solution for poor academics. Education is 24/7. PS Bad teachers must be let go vs. keeping them for decades because of union contracts.
In ATL, we actually spend more per student than other communities. Student performance did not improve. What I find is that school boards across the nation, including ATL, look to technology to teach kids - give them iPads! Bad idea, not proven to teach or improve learning; wastes a ton of budget.
So, it's not about what we spend to teach kids, but what happens when kids are not pushed at home, by their parents, to learn and do homework and be proud with strong effort. I'm told it's the culture of Asians to do well in school. Asian kids are taught early by their parents that this is expected. Conversely, I'm told that the black culture does not promote learning, and that kids that try hard in school are made fun of. If your 6 or 8, that can stop you from effort as peers have a strong influence.
We must not accept 'culture' as an excuse for not doing well, we must not abdicate the parental responsibility needed for students to take learning seriously, and we must not blame teachers or pretend that technology is a solution for poor academics. Education is 24/7. PS Bad teachers must be let go vs. keeping them for decades because of union contracts.
4
If a Mayor doesn’t take a “more urgent approach to remaking schools that continue to fail low-income black and Latino students,” then we have a “you need me more than I need you” situation among parents, and no sound parent is going to do any less than the best he can for his child’s education, regardless of the larger implications for society.
1
I do not have children but if I did I would do what is best for them. My entire life liberal guilt has instructed us good white progressives to make all decisions on what is best for black people. The assumption is that black problems are a result of me, my choices, and my attitudes towards blacks. Somehow if my opinions and choices were different the problems of blacks would disappear. If never seems to have dawned on blacks that maybe if their choices and attitudes were different it would make even a larger difference. I currently live in Seattle. Progressives seem to have decided it's our (white progressives) job to "take care" of blacks. This is badly exploited. Open racism by blacks towards Jews and Asians gets a free pass and is financially and emotionally supported by the same left constantly screaming about the alt-right. No thanks. Blacks make choices based on what they believe is best for them with zero consideration towards others. Blacks are the largest, most powerful and most abusive race in this country. I feel no responsibility to pander to them. Native Americans and Asians are far more vulnerable and under advocated for.
11
"many of the most desirable high schools seem to have washed their hands of all but the best-prepared students by basing admission on auditions, or scores on a one-day, high-stakes test, or top performance on statewide exams, or portfolios of middle school work"
Did you think they became the more desirable high schools by letting in just anyone?! Why is Harvard more competitive than a community college?
Liberals and the NYT won't be happy until everyone is mediocre - that's the only want to eliminate inequality - everyone is poor and everyone is dumb. We are on our way there now.
Did you think they became the more desirable high schools by letting in just anyone?! Why is Harvard more competitive than a community college?
Liberals and the NYT won't be happy until everyone is mediocre - that's the only want to eliminate inequality - everyone is poor and everyone is dumb. We are on our way there now.
12
Blame Albert Schanker for the problems in the NYC public schools.
Teachers Unions are the problem....not the solution.
Teachers Unions are the problem....not the solution.
2
All of these arguments surrounding integration/segregation in education is exactly why those who can afford it, send their children to private schools.
Further separating and enlarging the racial imbalance of the public schools.
Further separating and enlarging the racial imbalance of the public schools.
10
"But many of the most desirable HS seem to have washed their hands of all but the best-prepared students by basing admission on auditions, or scores on a one-day, high-stakes test, or top performance on statewide exams, or portfolios of middle school work."
The purpose of the better schools is to promote better citizens who can compete in today's world. Why should we take a slightly better than average child, put them in a school where they will struggle and then release them into a job market where they can not compete
If the students are not willing to give up social life in order to excel in school work, why should they expect entry into the best schools. The idea of a city wide test, gives every kid a shot at the best, THAT IS FAIR. The city can not discriminate by race, or economic status. If you want this, make a large donation or ask a favor send your child private school.
A public education is a great thing and America has gone out of its way to destroy the system. This is the beginning of the rebirth of public education... It is all about effort. Until kids are ready to drop their i phones and pick up a book, nothing is going to change. It is going to take sacrifice and hard work. If parents aren't willing or able to help, then it just gets harder for the kids. It does not mean they can not make it. Kids at the top of their class are there because they earned it... Once parents, socialists and politicians figure this out, we can get down to the task at hand
The purpose of the better schools is to promote better citizens who can compete in today's world. Why should we take a slightly better than average child, put them in a school where they will struggle and then release them into a job market where they can not compete
If the students are not willing to give up social life in order to excel in school work, why should they expect entry into the best schools. The idea of a city wide test, gives every kid a shot at the best, THAT IS FAIR. The city can not discriminate by race, or economic status. If you want this, make a large donation or ask a favor send your child private school.
A public education is a great thing and America has gone out of its way to destroy the system. This is the beginning of the rebirth of public education... It is all about effort. Until kids are ready to drop their i phones and pick up a book, nothing is going to change. It is going to take sacrifice and hard work. If parents aren't willing or able to help, then it just gets harder for the kids. It does not mean they can not make it. Kids at the top of their class are there because they earned it... Once parents, socialists and politicians figure this out, we can get down to the task at hand
22
Teachers cannot replace good parenting and/or involvement with children's learning once they have left the school walls. Responsibility starts at home.
15
Public education in NYC, and our inability to provide the same quality of education to everyone, is about competing interests rooted in de facto racial segregation.
Competing interest 1: I want my non-Black/Hispanic child to have as much educational success as possible, which means that if their chance of this is at jeopardy by re-zoning in an attempt to normalize racial distributions, I'm not going along with it. We saw this play out in the past 2 years in the UWS and in Brooklyn. De-segregation fails because theory bumps heads with practice. No one wants to sacrifice opportunities for their child (rightly so in a fashion) when push comes to shove.
Competing interest 2: Select schools vs. the average quality of education. Emphasis is placed on increasing non-Asian minority opportunities in select high schools in NYC. This is fine, but misses the point that the educational opportunities available to the average student are still limited (and bad). This notion of eliminating the selective aspect of the selective school to try to increase minority representation is by turns insulting to the minority and runs counter to the definition of selective.
Normalizing public education will not happen until there is greater integration in the city. Period. This requires sacrificing something, which runs counter to the impulse of every parent of a child who has opportunity. In other words, NIMBY.
Competing interest 1: I want my non-Black/Hispanic child to have as much educational success as possible, which means that if their chance of this is at jeopardy by re-zoning in an attempt to normalize racial distributions, I'm not going along with it. We saw this play out in the past 2 years in the UWS and in Brooklyn. De-segregation fails because theory bumps heads with practice. No one wants to sacrifice opportunities for their child (rightly so in a fashion) when push comes to shove.
Competing interest 2: Select schools vs. the average quality of education. Emphasis is placed on increasing non-Asian minority opportunities in select high schools in NYC. This is fine, but misses the point that the educational opportunities available to the average student are still limited (and bad). This notion of eliminating the selective aspect of the selective school to try to increase minority representation is by turns insulting to the minority and runs counter to the definition of selective.
Normalizing public education will not happen until there is greater integration in the city. Period. This requires sacrificing something, which runs counter to the impulse of every parent of a child who has opportunity. In other words, NIMBY.
2
NYC is one of the most segregated cities in the world. Things are changing in some neighborhoods but when I first moved here 30 years ago, the City was as segregated as Johannesburg. Certain key streets, like 96th Street in Manhattan and Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn separated the City's neighborhoods by race in an unspoken yet strict apartheid. New York is still very segregated, why is it surprising that the public schools are segregated as well?
"To blame parents is just so easy. What if the parent(s) work 15 hour days trying to make ends meet? "
I differ. my guess it has a positive effect. children follow by example. let's do research whether the educational achievement of children of hard working parents are positively or adversely effected. some readers will be pleasantly surprised
I differ. my guess it has a positive effect. children follow by example. let's do research whether the educational achievement of children of hard working parents are positively or adversely effected. some readers will be pleasantly surprised
6
What if the parents work 15 hour days? More of these kids come from families where the parents work 0 hour days. The huge number of non-working poor is a scandal, and the left finances it, it seems to have become a way of life for some communities, and a way for the democrats to keep certain large voting blocks continuing to vote democrat. Also, most of these kids come from families where there are not parents, but a single mom.
12
I agree. you said it bluntly and correctly without offending the PC moderators. it is time that people who believe in meritocracy can have a voice in this paper.
Priscilla Chan-Zuckerberg (Facebook) parents worked 15 hrs a day to support their children. Many other parents do.
The school choice movement in this country, as represented by DeVos and her allies, look longingly at this data, and want to replicate it nation wide. It is basically a formula for resegregating schools. Now why not press every school that has performance as a criteria to accept a certain percentage of LD and low performing students? If they are really good schools, we can test how well their programs work at educating our worst performing students. That is the real test for education.
Parents who don't make their own children the #1 priority can blame themselves and no one else. For years I worked in schools that parental involvement was zero. Students who struggled did so because they were chronically absent, unmotivated to behave appropriately or work consistently because there was no reinforcement at home. Teachers, principals and even this Buffoon of a mayor can't change that.
Accountability starts at home. If you don't care enough to prioritize your own life why should you expect the rest of society to do so? If your child isn't a priority in your life, then own the consequences of your own actions, stop passing the moral buck.
Accountability starts at home. If you don't care enough to prioritize your own life why should you expect the rest of society to do so? If your child isn't a priority in your life, then own the consequences of your own actions, stop passing the moral buck.
12
Useful, researched article. 'Desegregation' is also about the enriching possibilities in being with people unlike our 'group'. There is wealth in every community that is not about financial resources. This country, and we individually, have a lot of work to do to repair the damage of racism and class oppression whether we are the targets of those twin scourges or the unwitting (or witting) agents of them. Lousy embedded structural oppressions require our complicity as ‘agents’ or push us to re-enact internally the brutal forces directed from outside of our 'group'. Ending this will require individual human resources as well as financial and policy ones. But we can't easily engage in problem solving if we continue to see ourselves as 'better than/smarter than' people we’ve been trained and hurt into devaluing. We are at a point where a respectful, aware, patient, and a listening collective effort is needed. Then we take action. The damage of being raised absorbed only in 'me and mine' is a curse that has the whole planet in trouble. The damaging affects of the violence of racism and class oppression perpetrated by upper class & white-controlled institutions is a lot to recover from and a lot to untangle. But, in truth, humans made these problems and human intelligence can solve them.
4
Until we take the effects of poverty on children seriously blaming the schools is a waste of time.
Statistically, every class has a couple of homeless children, a couple of hungry children, a couple of kids with pollution induced learning disabilities, etc. Many of these problems create behavior issues that affect the other children.
We need to start at birth to make sure all children have a place to live, clothing, good nutrition, high quality daycare where they get intellectual and emotional stimulation, and protection from lead and other poisons that inhibit brain development.
Beating up on schools and teachers who are working ten times harder than ever is a scam designed to privatize schools so that someone can get rich off of tax dollars. Once corporations have control of the schools, we will suddenly hear nothing about the quality of schools.
Many studies show that poverty keeps children from learning, but our penny wise pound foolish culture just wants to blame parents, teachers, and schools instead of fixing an economic system that transfers productivity from the working poor so that even parents with jobs have a hard time supplying the basics for their children. We skimp on the very young, then pay ten times as much dealing with their problems later, mostly by imprisoning them.
If we invest in the youngest children now, they will have better lives, and they will contribute more to society later.
Statistically, every class has a couple of homeless children, a couple of hungry children, a couple of kids with pollution induced learning disabilities, etc. Many of these problems create behavior issues that affect the other children.
We need to start at birth to make sure all children have a place to live, clothing, good nutrition, high quality daycare where they get intellectual and emotional stimulation, and protection from lead and other poisons that inhibit brain development.
Beating up on schools and teachers who are working ten times harder than ever is a scam designed to privatize schools so that someone can get rich off of tax dollars. Once corporations have control of the schools, we will suddenly hear nothing about the quality of schools.
Many studies show that poverty keeps children from learning, but our penny wise pound foolish culture just wants to blame parents, teachers, and schools instead of fixing an economic system that transfers productivity from the working poor so that even parents with jobs have a hard time supplying the basics for their children. We skimp on the very young, then pay ten times as much dealing with their problems later, mostly by imprisoning them.
If we invest in the youngest children now, they will have better lives, and they will contribute more to society later.
15
I completely agree with this analysis, but even then the state is a poor substitution for the family.
The same thing by the way is happening with poor white children who live in the middle of the country. Decline of family, poverty, dysfunction, crime, neglect of children who are forced when fed to eat fast food and sugar.
We need jobs, we need to stop allowing pharmaceutical companies to operate without impunity and we need to discourage men and women from having unprotected sex. We most definitely need to intervene when they've already created one child that they won't parent.
The same thing by the way is happening with poor white children who live in the middle of the country. Decline of family, poverty, dysfunction, crime, neglect of children who are forced when fed to eat fast food and sugar.
We need jobs, we need to stop allowing pharmaceutical companies to operate without impunity and we need to discourage men and women from having unprotected sex. We most definitely need to intervene when they've already created one child that they won't parent.
7
The Times's expose of the failures of Bloomberg's choice system is long overdue, as is the editorial board's recognition of this failure. Yet ineplicably the Times remains enamored with a key component of the "choice" system, charter schools, which often exacerbate racial, economic, language and special needs segregation by offering enrollment, or pruning their student bodies, only to the few "high performing" students and families. Hence, schools like Success Charter often lose over half their elementary students by middle school and 80% by high school. In turn, greater numbers of higher needs and "lower-performing" students and families are herded into overburdened public schools which are then forced to "compete" with charters for zero-sum resources on the singular basis of test scores which the charters have so assiduously pruned and prepared their few remaining students to take.
1
"Despite its polychromatic diversity, New York City has one of most deeply segregated school systems in the nation."
Clearly, there are monuments to Confederate soldiers somewhere in the city. Find and remove them as quickly as possible so that NYC can correct their segregation problem.
Clearly, there are monuments to Confederate soldiers somewhere in the city. Find and remove them as quickly as possible so that NYC can correct their segregation problem.
6
I give the NYT some credit here for stating the obvious. Although NYC is diverse, it is also incredibly segregated along racial/class lines. It is fine to clamor for better schooling for all across America, as long as your own kids still go to the best (white) schools.
2
The Times article you cite, "Broken Promises of Choice," included important information left out here.
Specifically, that article had a number of instances where kids went to lower quality schools because their parents wanted them to go to local schools. The article mentions that many did not want their kids traveling an hour each way to high school on the subway.
How do you think a kid gets from Chinatown gets to Bronx Science? How do you think most kids get to Stuyvesant, in Lower Manhattan.
The article mentioned that a high achieving student wanted to go to school in Manhattan but her mother told her to put Bronx schools at the top of her choices, and Manhattan at the bottom.
How can kids go to good schools when their parents won't even let them consider them?
Specifically, that article had a number of instances where kids went to lower quality schools because their parents wanted them to go to local schools. The article mentions that many did not want their kids traveling an hour each way to high school on the subway.
How do you think a kid gets from Chinatown gets to Bronx Science? How do you think most kids get to Stuyvesant, in Lower Manhattan.
The article mentioned that a high achieving student wanted to go to school in Manhattan but her mother told her to put Bronx schools at the top of her choices, and Manhattan at the bottom.
How can kids go to good schools when their parents won't even let them consider them?
17
That trip is an hour and there is walking, although there is a BX High School van at the subway. Or they go to Stuyvesant which is a 20 minute walk and about the same on the bus. My child goes to Beacon and a LOT of students have very long bus and subway rides.
You are quite correct: A long subway ride for a little kid in 6th grade? I understand
You are quite correct: A long subway ride for a little kid in 6th grade? I understand
1
As others have pointed out, this article ignores a fundamental aspect of success that isn't simply defined by income level. To say that NYC schools favor the wealthy leaves a significant portion of families out of the equation. I spent the entirety of my k-12 life in NYC public schools. I wasn't born in the US and didn't speak English fluently until the 2nd grade. I'm the child of a single parent who's income was def. not meeting "middle or upper class" standards by the time I was finishing mid. school. I attended a high school I was not zoned to, but which admitted students based on location, state test scores, and auditions, graduated in the top 10 percent, and thanks to a mix of fin. aid and careful budgeting by my single parent, graduated with honors from an Ivy college where most of my peers had gone to private schools.
I believe this editorial is doing a disservice to the low income families of NYC who pour all of their limited resources into making sure their children get the best possible education available to them. I think had I not been admitted to the high school I ended up in, I never would have been exposed to the peers, teachers, and counselors who opened my eyes to the opportunities I could have. Eliminating school choice or replacing the system with a lottery will deny kids from families like mine the ability to do everything they can to seek a quality public education when a private one simply isn't an option.
I believe this editorial is doing a disservice to the low income families of NYC who pour all of their limited resources into making sure their children get the best possible education available to them. I think had I not been admitted to the high school I ended up in, I never would have been exposed to the peers, teachers, and counselors who opened my eyes to the opportunities I could have. Eliminating school choice or replacing the system with a lottery will deny kids from families like mine the ability to do everything they can to seek a quality public education when a private one simply isn't an option.
41
The commenters here need to read "The Color Of Law" and so does Mayor De Blasio. It is way past time to address inequities in housing which then lead to all sorts of other nefarious outcomes.
To blame parents is just so easy. What if the parent(s) work 15 hour days trying to make ends meet?
To blame parents is just so easy. What if the parent(s) work 15 hour days trying to make ends meet?
3
I'll stick with my lived experiences as opposed to taking advice from a book written by some academic liberal that can afford to insulate himself from these issues.
7
I speak about this issue "en connaissance de cause, " since I lived it through as dean of inner city h.s. There was an effort by reformers to democratize elite high schools in favor of higher percentage of minority students able to attend one of the 4 elite educational emporiums in NYC: Stuyvesant H.S., Brooklyn Tech., Townshend Harris and Bronx H.S. of Science. To some extent efforts of reformers were crowned with success, and limited number of Latin and African Amer. students were accepted into these institututions. Irving Anker, Chancellor when I was licensed ,undertook a similar, laudable. There was even a mayoral candidate back in the day by the name of Jim Smith who made it part of his platfor, But at a certain point white, middle class establishment, supported by Joel Klein and his predecessors, intervened to , grosso modo, preserve the statu quo and the abovementioned schools remained what they had always been: Reserved for the highest academic achievers who just happened to come from white, middle class homes. Determined parents, p.t.a's have unofficially made some public schools into almost exclusive private schools by insuring that they remain in control. Difference between Buckley and Eleanor Roosevelt H.S. is that former is more expensive. Object to sentences re " failing schools" and "failing students!" No such thing. Can't think of 1 student who graduated from Brandeis who was not better for having attended, and was not proud of his diploma.
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Stuy is 70% Asian, many from very poor immigrant communities so I have no idea where You are getting your info from and I find it dubious.
First, let me say that the School Choice ideas put forth by Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos, as championed by Donald Trump, definitely do lead to Institutionalized Racism. Charter schools look good on paper; however, that's because they can select the best students to enroll--thus enhancing test scores.
And vouchers are insufficient to enable poor families to cover private school tuition, but they do shift funds from public to private schools, lowering the expense for the wealthy, who would send their children anyway.
One option, which might alleviate the problem somewhat, is to enable more flexibility--outside of usual school boundaries--for parents and children to have, at least, some choice. That way, families could compare schools, and particular areas of excellence--music, special education, performing are=ts, etc.
Of course, the travel constraints must be taken into account, and parents must assume some of the responsibility.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
And vouchers are insufficient to enable poor families to cover private school tuition, but they do shift funds from public to private schools, lowering the expense for the wealthy, who would send their children anyway.
One option, which might alleviate the problem somewhat, is to enable more flexibility--outside of usual school boundaries--for parents and children to have, at least, some choice. That way, families could compare schools, and particular areas of excellence--music, special education, performing are=ts, etc.
Of course, the travel constraints must be taken into account, and parents must assume some of the responsibility.
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
Ultimately the problem will only be solved when students are not sacrificed to protect underperforming schools and underperforming teachers to cater to the interests of some adults.
The other major problem is cultural and family values, underperforming communities don't place the importance on education, taking the time to study, read, learn on one's own, and being respectful to teachers that strongly performing communities have. Helping underperforming communities improve includes ending the indoctrination that "you can't succeed, because you are part of a group that is discriminated against" - which crushes the will to work for one's education. Underperforming communities will continue to underperform until they adopt the values that promote success.
The other major problem is cultural and family values, underperforming communities don't place the importance on education, taking the time to study, read, learn on one's own, and being respectful to teachers that strongly performing communities have. Helping underperforming communities improve includes ending the indoctrination that "you can't succeed, because you are part of a group that is discriminated against" - which crushes the will to work for one's education. Underperforming communities will continue to underperform until they adopt the values that promote success.
16
The implication of the article is that it is schools that are failing. It is society that is failing. Some children start with advantages - parents who value education, who read to their children, who expose them to a range of experience. Other parents are struggling to survive, to pay their bills, to provide food and shelter, and don't have the time, energy and resources to help their children. Our society has expanding inequality. It should not be a surprise that inequality shows up in our schools.
3
Your description of the current NYC school choice program is at odds with your conclusion that it offers no real choice for the poor. The system you describe is based entirely on merit and provides top level education for kids who work hard regardless of income. So I imagine it works just fine for poor kids as long as their parents are invested in their education. Replace the meritocratic admissions with a lottery thereby putting kids performing 2 years below grade level with kids performing two years above and watch every family who can afford private school flee. Poor kids who had a shot at a good education will be sacrificed on the alter of liberal social engineering. The NYC public schools aren't failing low-income black and Latino students who fall behind; their parents are.
31
"The choice system was constructed not for the poor, but to keep white middle-class families invested in the public schools." This statement, the thesis of the editorial, is remarkable, reflecting a complete NYTimes' editorial reversal since the "choice" era began. I guess I should be glad the Times has finally come to its senses, using actual evidence to guide its conclusion, but the untold damage done to schools, students, and parents may not be so easy to fix. Is this an indication of the beginning of the end to neoliberalism, where choice and "free markets" were supposed to fix everything? I hope so.
Anyone with even a passing familiarity with the NYC schools system knows that it's often those who are the face of gentrification - affluent, progressive, and white living in places like the UWS, Tribeca, and Park Slope - who will press every advantage and privilege they have, often bending the rules (e.g., the pied-à-terre strategy at Kindergarten) or outright cheating (borrowed electric bills) to secure a seat in a "good" school for their child, often a school that is deemed "good" on the mommy/daddy blogs but not very diverse.
We need to look at why those who often speak the loudest on editorial pages and at public forums about the need for diversity and integration often choose "quality" (as they see it) over diversity when it comes to their own children, whether that's at elementary (sneaking into a zoned school nearby that is considered "better", which often simply means whiter and/or perceived as conferring to the parents some form of social status), at middle (finagling a way into D2 or D15 middle school admissions), or at high school.
The segregation we see in HS is a product of the segregation and inequities in K-8 - inequities that many affluent white progressives hand wring about in public but often further aggravate and contribute to in their own choices. What's driving them to choose "quality" over diversity, despite what they say in public?
We need to look at why those who often speak the loudest on editorial pages and at public forums about the need for diversity and integration often choose "quality" (as they see it) over diversity when it comes to their own children, whether that's at elementary (sneaking into a zoned school nearby that is considered "better", which often simply means whiter and/or perceived as conferring to the parents some form of social status), at middle (finagling a way into D2 or D15 middle school admissions), or at high school.
The segregation we see in HS is a product of the segregation and inequities in K-8 - inequities that many affluent white progressives hand wring about in public but often further aggravate and contribute to in their own choices. What's driving them to choose "quality" over diversity, despite what they say in public?
5
"What's driving them to choose "quality" over diversity, despite what they say in public.
re: white progressives
The one word is hypocrisy. I can't blame them. who want to have own their children being apart of a social experiment ?
re: white progressives
The one word is hypocrisy. I can't blame them. who want to have own their children being apart of a social experiment ?
5
Article has several unwise comments. Especially the last paragraph which seems to push aside middle class voters concerns. Also, the system has 14 percent white pupils making integration on a city wide scale very unlikely. Article reeks of elitism that made Donald Trump president.
Strange article. At least it did not advocate the forced busing which brought about the many year collapse if education in Boston.
Why I suggest it is strange is that it is about the idea of keeping the middle class in the school system and ends up saying it is "tilted toward the wealthy." What?? Since when is the middle class wealthy? Since when is the middle class the one to be demonized?
Having a lottery is a simplistic idea that the mayor rightly rejects since it drags everyone down. If a part of the class has not the aptitude to keep up with the rest they don't belong there. Teaching is a hard job. It's harder when ill prepared students crowd in upon those who are.
If there were a solution to the poor and unprepared getting a better education it would have been put forth years ago. Writing editorials that lament the fact but offer no solution may make the writers feel better but does little more than that. Schools can only do so much. Environment and home can do a lot more.
Why I suggest it is strange is that it is about the idea of keeping the middle class in the school system and ends up saying it is "tilted toward the wealthy." What?? Since when is the middle class wealthy? Since when is the middle class the one to be demonized?
Having a lottery is a simplistic idea that the mayor rightly rejects since it drags everyone down. If a part of the class has not the aptitude to keep up with the rest they don't belong there. Teaching is a hard job. It's harder when ill prepared students crowd in upon those who are.
If there were a solution to the poor and unprepared getting a better education it would have been put forth years ago. Writing editorials that lament the fact but offer no solution may make the writers feel better but does little more than that. Schools can only do so much. Environment and home can do a lot more.
15
Fix the low-performing and failing schools. Every child deserves equal educational services. Every child.
Some neighborhoods in Houston have had a financial windfall due to rising property values and growth of luxury housing. The schools in those areas are doing so well they decided to divert the money to where it was needed. Keep in mind nearby Katy has spent 70 million dollars for a High School football stadium. Goes without saying the wealthy get better education but what are the rest of us paying for?
Pretending it's about race or ethnicity, might be partially true, buts it's really about class. Alienating white working class and poor who think their tax money is going to minorities has turned them into Republicans. Many working class Mexican Americans feel all the money is going to blacks. Identity politics of the Democratic party works in only half of the country. We are led to believe the smarter half.
Pretending it's about race or ethnicity, might be partially true, buts it's really about class. Alienating white working class and poor who think their tax money is going to minorities has turned them into Republicans. Many working class Mexican Americans feel all the money is going to blacks. Identity politics of the Democratic party works in only half of the country. We are led to believe the smarter half.
2
The identity politics focus of the Democrat elite doesn't change Democrats into Republicans. They are still Democrats, they just don't admit they are racist elitist.
That was one of the things that cost Hillary the election with her deplorables comment. Most Democrats know plenty of deplorable Democrats and very few deplorable Republicans.
Democrats project their own bigotry on others.
That was one of the things that cost Hillary the election with her deplorables comment. Most Democrats know plenty of deplorable Democrats and very few deplorable Republicans.
Democrats project their own bigotry on others.
Just as liberalism tries to deny the reality that people work their hardest when they will profit by what they accomplish, single-political-party governments insist that the children are all the same everywhere.
But the first thing you learn about people is how they vary. When parents can't even care whether the kids are doing what they are supposed to do at school, those kids are in trouble from day one, even if home is not a violent place.
Teachers of poor students are often pieced out their share of the most violent in a wacky hope that not too many will be hospitalized by even small violent offenders who weak administrators leave too long in regular classes.
When school is a zoo, be prepared for violence and noise.
I do feel sorry for these parents and the kids, but we spend more than any other country on school students so money is not the answer.
But the first thing you learn about people is how they vary. When parents can't even care whether the kids are doing what they are supposed to do at school, those kids are in trouble from day one, even if home is not a violent place.
Teachers of poor students are often pieced out their share of the most violent in a wacky hope that not too many will be hospitalized by even small violent offenders who weak administrators leave too long in regular classes.
When school is a zoo, be prepared for violence and noise.
I do feel sorry for these parents and the kids, but we spend more than any other country on school students so money is not the answer.
7
I am from Pasadena CA where the courts ordered busing for desegregation in the 70's. Awful results; great intentions. The problem is poverty-related pathology. Spreading pathology around to white people doesn't make it go away, it makes white people go away. Conversely, concentrating pathology in minority communities creates a multiplier effect and impossible teaching conditions. Ten crack kids in a class of 30 is chaos. I am left of Bernie Sanders but it is time to get tough. 1) No dope in magnet schools - one Doctor note should do. This is where we focus our integration efforts - magnets. 2) Infuse our robust non-profit community into our traditional schools to deal with drugs, homelessness, incarceration - it DOES take a village, the schools can't do it all. 3) Give up this charter/voucher/ for-profit nonsense. It doesn't work unless it recieve 3 time the money per pupil. You can't force integration. Pasadena has proven that with a decimated school district replaced by scores of private schools. You can however, use a little common sense.
6
Please explain the difference between a charter and a magnet school. They are both public schools.
Re my comment on the article which I hope will be fit for publication, let me add the following anecdote. IN 1994 when I was dean at Brandeis H.S. a student walked in with his months old baby daughter and proceeded to change her diapers on the desk opposite mine, without so much as a by your leave . He had been a truant, and was responding to an appeal from the school to return, and carried the historic first name of Mahdi, as in the history of the Sudan when the Mahdi, chosen one ,led a war for liberation from Kitchener and the British Empire. Despite all the disadvantages in life that our Mahdi faced , he did come back to finish his diploma. Perhaps Mahdi did not go on to become c.e.o at Texaco OIl, but he was proud of his achievement at having finished h.s. and secured his degree. No such thing as "failing schools" or "failing students!"
A lottery system will increase and not decrease segregation.
13
Every parent and every person in a position of power should do everything to ensure that every child in public school should get the best education that fits the childrens's need and ability.
The focus should be quality of education NOT segregation or integration. More attention needs to paid on barriers that prevent quality education, including familial attitudes about learning, intact families, English as a Second Language, timely and effective remedial tutoring, adequate nutrition, access to counselors and reliable mentors.
As long as one racial or ethnic group is economically disadvantaged, their educational achievement will always lag behind. This not only applies to education, but also to food, housing, safety, economic opportunity etc. The fixation on racial integration detracts from what needs to be done.
The focus should be quality of education NOT segregation or integration. More attention needs to paid on barriers that prevent quality education, including familial attitudes about learning, intact families, English as a Second Language, timely and effective remedial tutoring, adequate nutrition, access to counselors and reliable mentors.
As long as one racial or ethnic group is economically disadvantaged, their educational achievement will always lag behind. This not only applies to education, but also to food, housing, safety, economic opportunity etc. The fixation on racial integration detracts from what needs to be done.
30
It would be great if one of these articles/editorials took on education issues beyond the school system. Kids spend on the order of 1500 hours/year in school and 7,000 hours/year in their homes and communities. Schools can do better, but so can families and communities to emphasize and support the importance of education - sorry it is hard, and its not all on the schools. The most unsettling and perhaps revealing quote on this issue came from a mother - "my son graduated from high school and I just found out he cannot read"
Except segregation is practically synonymous with "economic disadvantage".
What a bizarre policy. In Canada, you go to the school that's closest to you, and that's that.
9
Three percent of the population of Canada is black, 4% is aboriginal, and the remainder is Caucasian or Asian.
White progressives do not want their children going to school with black children, or the poor.
White progressives do not want their children going to school with black children, or the poor.
Sounds like the borders of flyover country are expanding.
3
Sounds like the solutions the East Coast liberals imposed on flyover country, forced integration and putting kids on bus transportation one hour each way, is too inconvenient for East Coast liberals. Such hypocrisy.
And you, with your Democrat philosophy, feel free to look down on your betters.
And you, with your Democrat philosophy, feel free to look down on your betters.
The most desirable schools are basing their admissions on blind auditions, scores on tests that are scored blindly, statewide exams that are scored blindly, or overall portfolios of work done by the student over the course of middle school that factors out the possibility of a kid having a single bad audition or performance on a single test? Oh no! How unfair!
25
What the editorial board advocates, is equivalent to what the CCP advocated for the Chinese people after 1949: Let's create equality, the absolute kind. It did. It was equally poor.
Any education system that awards meritocracy will have winners and losers. The winners tend to intelligent, hardworking, and most importantly, with parents who care about their children's education. Bloomberg initiated a public school system that actually encourages excellence. He got excellence. The excellence happens to be racially concentrated, although everyone has the same OPPORTUNITY.
Don't blame any failure on the society, or the system. Look in the mirror.
Any education system that awards meritocracy will have winners and losers. The winners tend to intelligent, hardworking, and most importantly, with parents who care about their children's education. Bloomberg initiated a public school system that actually encourages excellence. He got excellence. The excellence happens to be racially concentrated, although everyone has the same OPPORTUNITY.
Don't blame any failure on the society, or the system. Look in the mirror.
87
How can we integrate our schools when less than fifteen percent are whites?Are we in dreamland?
23
Parcel them out, Martin. Make sure that every school gets one.
4
55% of NYC students are Caucasian and another 15% are Asian.
"offers no real choice for the poor"... is it factually true, NYTimes? or is it a deliberately vague statement to obfuscate? Please take a look at the poor fist generation Asian immigrants in Chinatown and elsewhere. They are as poor as anyone and their children are doing fine.
58
School excellence is mostly determined by pupil excellence. The best way to encourage educational opportunity for poor, underachieving minority kids is to improve their pre-K education. The cultural attributes of poor minorities that have succeeded in the past (Jews and Asians) need to be encouraged and even inculcated into failing minority cultures. These kids need fishing poles and not fish (i.e., a free admission ticket to Bronx Science).
19
Bill had his chance, time for someone new
6
This is simple. NYC should embark on a program to hire teachers from states with high test scores, like Vermont, Montana and the Dakotas. Put these teachers in the bad schools and watch those test scores soar.
3
And how, Dylan, do you get around the issue of the teachers from those states not applying for such dead-end positions in such dead-end communities?
1
Good luck getting someone from Vermont to teach in the South Bronx! That'll last about a week.
The problem is not just housing realities in NYC but also the Teachers' union and pandering politicians like De Blasio. School choice and vouchers is such a Republican idea that the uber-liberal Times has cottoned on to it BIGLY as Trump would say.
The solution is to improve the quality of schools in the 'segregated' districts by reducing truancy, and by addressing social issues of broken homes, petty crime, and 'accepted' drug use.
You are barking up the wrong tree.
The solution is to improve the quality of schools in the 'segregated' districts by reducing truancy, and by addressing social issues of broken homes, petty crime, and 'accepted' drug use.
You are barking up the wrong tree.
8
Well, the Mayor could just promise to make changes and then fail to, as he did regarding the horse drawn carriages in the city. After all, why not ignore the welfare of children the way we ignore the welfare of animals. (Show me your broken promises and I'll show you your future acts!)
3
As a former NYC teacher, principal and superintendent I believe that there is some educational value for students to be exposed to a diverse student body. But Public education is hard enough, and so schools should not be forced to solve a problem (racial integration) that the entire civil society is struggling to fix (or not fix). “Waiting for integration” also harms NYC Black and Latino kids because they must wait for political leaders to get their “integration act” together before they can receive a quality education. In terms of specialized high schools; the admissions numbers reflect the failure to provide Black and Latino students with a rigorous and rich K-8 educational experience: http://majmuse.net/2016/03/12/end-the-annual-specialized-high-school-adm... There is nothing wrong with the brains of Black and Latino kids that a quality education can’t fix; and their behinds don’t need to sit next to White kids to get it. I think the real “political courage” (and what would really raise academic achievement levels) would be to eliminate the separate and unequal access to a quality high expectations education that the majority of Black and Latino students suffer under because of unproductive work rules and regulations that seek to serve the interest of adults in the system, and not students.
7
The test score-admission schools like Bronx Science and Stuy are the jewels of New York education. What message would it send to hardworking kids around the city if their high school admissions-- and in many cases, their chance for a better life-- depend not on their preparation, but on luck of the draw? Do you know of any parent who raises their kids with the mindset "cross your fingers" instead of "hard work brings success"?
Turning the entire city into a lottery system for the sake of equality is like giving a cancer patient a band-aid-- it completely misses the point of what the underlying issue is.
Turning the entire city into a lottery system for the sake of equality is like giving a cancer patient a band-aid-- it completely misses the point of what the underlying issue is.
63
Some solutions sound like one should bring the good schools down a few notches by having admissions be anything goes or pull a name out of a hat. We should not knock down our good schools to be more equal. If the poor student can not afford a consultant, provide a consultant. Create a course that prepares students for transfer. We have SAT courses for college bound, we can do it for high school bound. After school activities/curriculum has always proven to be successful. Head start programs has a tremdous success record
3
I don't agree with the premise of this article. I grew up poor in the south Bronx. My mother, a teen mom, and my grandmother, the first in our family to attend college, albeit in her 30's after marriage and children, put a lot of time, effort, and what little money we had into my education.
My family is Baptist and Protestant and I attended Lutheran school for 3 years, followed by Catholic school through 9th grade. As a result of finances I had to attend public school from mid 10th grade. It was not a good experience and I was at a pretty decent HS. The biggest difference was indifference, on the part of the students and their parents. In the schools I had previously attended, no one was rich, but the parents were involved and cared deeply about the quality of their children's education. In public school, many kids cut classes more often then they were present. There was fighting, bullying, gang rivalries, unplanned pregnancies, and blatant disrespect for education and teachers in general. For the kids who actually attended class and tried, there was a lack of direction resulting from the reality that no one seemed to care if they did well or provided guidance about their future.
Without caring, involved parents/guardians, schools are little more than mandatory, tax funded child care centers.
My family is Baptist and Protestant and I attended Lutheran school for 3 years, followed by Catholic school through 9th grade. As a result of finances I had to attend public school from mid 10th grade. It was not a good experience and I was at a pretty decent HS. The biggest difference was indifference, on the part of the students and their parents. In the schools I had previously attended, no one was rich, but the parents were involved and cared deeply about the quality of their children's education. In public school, many kids cut classes more often then they were present. There was fighting, bullying, gang rivalries, unplanned pregnancies, and blatant disrespect for education and teachers in general. For the kids who actually attended class and tried, there was a lack of direction resulting from the reality that no one seemed to care if they did well or provided guidance about their future.
Without caring, involved parents/guardians, schools are little more than mandatory, tax funded child care centers.
37
Interesting points...
I would also think that the ridiculous restrictions on disciplining disruptive students hasn't exactly helped since the disrupters clear understand that nothing is going to happen to them.
I would also think that the ridiculous restrictions on disciplining disruptive students hasn't exactly helped since the disrupters clear understand that nothing is going to happen to them.
3
i was a teacher in the south bronx,budget director,principal and deputy supt. in the best district in new york city. everyone offers solutions but they do not live with reality. i had an open enrollment program in my school and district where seats were available and there were seats available. however to think you are going to deny 5 and 6 year old children a space at their local school is absurd at best. what needs to be done is for someone to look at seating and availability and set up an open enrollment process. by the way what ever happened to magnet schools being the solution for good schools.
1
The Public School system is very good at putting out what is put in. Send kids from stable homes who ate breakfast whose families value education, that is what you get out. People on the edge, who don't value education...that is what you get out. If property values reflect the second situation, parents will opt for private school, or the current nostrum, "charter schools"., which are just a way for some cream to be skimmed off the top and for a small group to get rich from the public trough.....
9
I attended, back in the 1940's, one of the crummiest schools in New York City. I also had drunken parents who were uninterested in either my education or well being. Nevertheless, there were some wonderful and smart teachers at school who did care about me. There was also a warm and friendly neighborhood public library we visited on school trips where I had access to a world of books -- even on weekends.
Teachers, good teacher. I had teachers who were intelligent and well educated. Today, we have eliminated here in New York the ALST, the Academic Literacy Skills Test, because, according to The Times this past March, "black and Hispanic candidates passed it at significantly lower rates than white candidates." And an analysis done in the first year of this literacy test (2014) showed that just "64 percent of white candidates passed the test on the first try."
Other tests are being considered for elimination or change (moving right along on the dumbing down agenda.)
So. If tests for potential teachers are too hard, the nincompoops in charge will just get rid of the tests or make them easier.
What's the point of worrying about what kids are who when all the teachers can't teach a damned thing to any of them?
Teachers, good teacher. I had teachers who were intelligent and well educated. Today, we have eliminated here in New York the ALST, the Academic Literacy Skills Test, because, according to The Times this past March, "black and Hispanic candidates passed it at significantly lower rates than white candidates." And an analysis done in the first year of this literacy test (2014) showed that just "64 percent of white candidates passed the test on the first try."
Other tests are being considered for elimination or change (moving right along on the dumbing down agenda.)
So. If tests for potential teachers are too hard, the nincompoops in charge will just get rid of the tests or make them easier.
What's the point of worrying about what kids are who when all the teachers can't teach a damned thing to any of them?
19
I have always wondered why the percentages of those NOT PASSING the test were reasons for eliminating the test, particularly if the test accurately reflected what the test-takers were supposed to have learned.
The whole object of tests is to show that which the student(s) need to work on. If no one is able to find that out, how is the student's preparation improved?
More to the point, getting things wrong in life has consequences; why shouldn't there be consequences for failure on the tests, especially if those consequences are clearly for the benefit of those failing?
The whole object of tests is to show that which the student(s) need to work on. If no one is able to find that out, how is the student's preparation improved?
More to the point, getting things wrong in life has consequences; why shouldn't there be consequences for failure on the tests, especially if those consequences are clearly for the benefit of those failing?
3
Ok, all these commenters who blithely blame the PARENTS for school inequality? You guys need to go back to school yourselves! It's not as though every child starts with a blank slate when they enter school. There are decades of injustice and history keeping many families stuck in the cycle of poverty. It's like saying, "Why don't poor people have better nutrition at home?" Ummm...because leafy greens are a hell of a lot more expensive than a bag of chips! Why do poor families--perhaps with single parents, perhaps minimal education themselves, perhaps with 3 menial jobs--not spend an hour reading to their kids after school? Gosh, it must be because they don''t care, huh? Its ignorant, self-serving, and mean-spirited to look at the problem this way.
3
No, they don't start with a blank slate. If the parents have an IQ of 80, and their whole group averages 85, the child isn't likely to average more than 85. That child will need lifelong support and subsidies from society as a whole.
1
Excuse me...
Please tell me how decades of "injustice" weigh on the minds of a five-year old going to school.
Methinks, you are using the "victim" paintbrush, here, with no valid reason for even picking it up.
Please tell me how decades of "injustice" weigh on the minds of a five-year old going to school.
Methinks, you are using the "victim" paintbrush, here, with no valid reason for even picking it up.
"And low-income children who might qualify for admission are often defeated by a byzantine application process that wealthier parents navigate with paid consultants."
I moved to Brooklyn with my family about 15 years ago before the start of the 8th grade. I figured out on my own what it meant to "apply" for a high school, figure out which schools are worth going to, and which curriculum I wanted to undertake. I was 13. Please tell me what this "byzantine application process" is that requires "paid consultants"?
People are so quick to blame the system because of their own personal failures.
I moved to Brooklyn with my family about 15 years ago before the start of the 8th grade. I figured out on my own what it meant to "apply" for a high school, figure out which schools are worth going to, and which curriculum I wanted to undertake. I was 13. Please tell me what this "byzantine application process" is that requires "paid consultants"?
People are so quick to blame the system because of their own personal failures.
38
Perhaps blindly rotating teachers throughout the NYC school system will help reduce economic segregation. As we know the quality of schooling depends greatly on the quality of teachers. A random distribution of great teachers could accomplish more than moving students. Housing cost differences could also be reduced if the difference in the quality of teaching in affluent vs poorer areas is reduced.
2
I was on our local School Board for 20 years. We hired a Superintendent who was committed to the idea that all students can learn and it is the school system's responsibility to make that happen--no excuses like socioeconomic station or race accepted. There was skepticism from School Board, parents, and students themselves because most accepted the notion that natural ability controls achievement and exists in direct relation to the socioeconomic status. Parents of the already successful students did not want their children held back by slower learners. Parents of struggling students were afraid their children couldn't do more and feared they would fail more often. Educators did not want to accept the responsibility for outcomes they believed were beyond their control.
Warily we tried it, and the outcomes were amazing and immensely gratifying. Academic achievement improved in all (including the highest) groups. School and community pride increased. Academic achievement was valued more by students. Many proudly became the first in their families to go beyond high school.
I think the most important piece of this success was changing the expectations of educators and students.
The key to getting students into successful schools is not moving students. It is making more schools successful. That requires a belief that success is possible for all students and that educators can and must make that happen no matter the obstacles.
Warily we tried it, and the outcomes were amazing and immensely gratifying. Academic achievement improved in all (including the highest) groups. School and community pride increased. Academic achievement was valued more by students. Many proudly became the first in their families to go beyond high school.
I think the most important piece of this success was changing the expectations of educators and students.
The key to getting students into successful schools is not moving students. It is making more schools successful. That requires a belief that success is possible for all students and that educators can and must make that happen no matter the obstacles.
4
THE WRITERS Are irresponsible for painting all schools and all educators with the same brush. Without giving specific examples to bolster the claims of educational failure the piece is of limited credibility. Hypertext links to supporting documentation was essential, at a minimum. Magnet high schools nationwide are by definition selective. They are NOT designed to exclude anyone. The High School from which I graduated, Central in Philly, was named the most diverse high school in the US. Yet their admissions policy is that they will accept any student who meets their criteria. Central was founded on 6/13/1836. There may be other magnet schools with distinguished histories that have selective admissions policies. Powerful resources are available online for anyone who chooses to use them that provide courses for students from PreK through 12th grade with thousands of college courses online free from the best universities. These resources are available within seconds. That places a heavy onus on administrators and teachers to get up to speed. The process of reviewing educational materials has gone from months, even years, limited by money available, to instant access. All schools have the option. However, states and localities hold on to their own curricula and favored materials without demonstrating that they can be replaced with free online curricula and materials. Will the challenges to change educational paradigms be welcome or rejected?
1
One need only go interact with the current generation of inner-city high-school "graduates" to see the failures of their educational system.
18-Year-Olds who have only limited abilities to read or write, to do even elementary math, to think critically, or to communicate verbally are NOT "educated".
18-Year-Olds who have only limited abilities to read or write, to do even elementary math, to think critically, or to communicate verbally are NOT "educated".
2
In a meritocracy, which the world inextricably is, why complain about its application?
And, why aren't the esteemed Editorial Board congratulating those schools who wish to remain at the top of the "quality education" pyramid? Doesn't the Board think that encouraging excellence is important to those seeking meet the highest standards?
As for the school systems reflecting the historical housing patterns, I would have to say...shockingly...that Mayor deBlasio has a valid point. And this valid point doesn't come about because one race, religious, or ethnic group is systematically excluded from living in one place or another.
It may have been so in the past, but today, exclusions is a mere fraction of its historical record.
People live where they feel most comfortable. And most feeling uncomfortable in an area vote with their feet to find an local that is more suitable to their interests.
Of course, economic self-sufficiency is an overlay that makes it harder for people to move, but most often it is the inertia of living with others with whom they are comfortable decides the issue.
A more appropriate set of questions in these matter deals with those factors that PREVENT a school from turning out educated students.
Honesty and objectivity will reveal that there are many contributing factors, and each factor may well have the ability to derail progress independent of all of the others.
Pouring more money in is not the answer Denying reality is not productive.
And, why aren't the esteemed Editorial Board congratulating those schools who wish to remain at the top of the "quality education" pyramid? Doesn't the Board think that encouraging excellence is important to those seeking meet the highest standards?
As for the school systems reflecting the historical housing patterns, I would have to say...shockingly...that Mayor deBlasio has a valid point. And this valid point doesn't come about because one race, religious, or ethnic group is systematically excluded from living in one place or another.
It may have been so in the past, but today, exclusions is a mere fraction of its historical record.
People live where they feel most comfortable. And most feeling uncomfortable in an area vote with their feet to find an local that is more suitable to their interests.
Of course, economic self-sufficiency is an overlay that makes it harder for people to move, but most often it is the inertia of living with others with whom they are comfortable decides the issue.
A more appropriate set of questions in these matter deals with those factors that PREVENT a school from turning out educated students.
Honesty and objectivity will reveal that there are many contributing factors, and each factor may well have the ability to derail progress independent of all of the others.
Pouring more money in is not the answer Denying reality is not productive.
10
As long as there isn't a decent public education system which is the core of the education of most of the people, as it happens in Europe which has better education systems and results than the USA, these problems will never go away.
Sorry, Rich, the vaunted European education system is showing strains, particularly in areas which have become ghettos of self-segregated immigrants unwilling to assimilate into the cultures of their new homelands.
6
Europe doesn't have a large underclass of brown people. You can't compare.
One reason that school choice doesn't desegregate is that it is much harder for low-income parents to accompany their kids on long-distance journeys to or from choice/out-of-zone schools, where busing is not provided in any adequate way. People with the money to pay for babysitters or professional-type jobs that provide flexibility are much more able to manage the commutes, while those whose pay is docked when the subway system fails cannot take the risk. There are so many logistical obstacles for low-income families that choice cannot be the exclusive answer. The answer has to be radical reinvestment not only in local schools but also in aggressive anti-poverty programs like food assistance, afterschool care, and housing.
2
Odd that the NYT writes an article about selective school choice and mentions Blacks, Hispanics and Whites but not Asians. Stuyvesant High is 75% Asian most of whom are from immigrant families. Seems like an important factor if one was to have an honest discussion of the issues, if only it better fit the narrative.
22
Asian academic achievement is like kryptonite to sensitive "Progressive" ears,
1
Illegal segregation is something much different than the sort that NYC apparently has. Discrimination due to policies is illegal, without those policies nobody should care. Now if they are not getting appropriate resources to insure equal opportunity for a decent education.
In 2011 your paper reported that at 42 percent of the city’s 700 elementary schools, one in five students missed a month or more of school (link below).
The impact on students, their regularly attending classmates and the teacher is incalculable. Consider investigating factors that differentiate schools that succeed from those that don't other than race, including single parent household, living in shelters, parent incarcerated or involved with drugs. These explain poor academic achievement much more than race.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/17/nyregion/city-reduces-chronic-absentee...
The impact on students, their regularly attending classmates and the teacher is incalculable. Consider investigating factors that differentiate schools that succeed from those that don't other than race, including single parent household, living in shelters, parent incarcerated or involved with drugs. These explain poor academic achievement much more than race.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/17/nyregion/city-reduces-chronic-absentee...
12
My husband passed away when our son was 15 years old. After my husband's passing, I supported our family on my own. My son graduated from high school and went on serve our country as a Marine. He received degree from credible university and it now a trader on Wall Street. The excuse of "single parent households" is a lazy excuse for parents not coming to the table to assist their children in their education. It takes participation of the family.
8
" accepting children with a broader range of academic preparation."
This would have the following predictable consequences:
1- the dumbing down and lowering standards of the school
2- ensuring a high failure rate for the academically ill prepared (unless all students are 'socially' promoted, regardless of how poorly they do).
If you take poorly prepared students and put them in a highly competitive environment it is bad for both the student and the school. The solution starts much earlier in life so that these students are academically well prepared for competitive schools.
This would have the following predictable consequences:
1- the dumbing down and lowering standards of the school
2- ensuring a high failure rate for the academically ill prepared (unless all students are 'socially' promoted, regardless of how poorly they do).
If you take poorly prepared students and put them in a highly competitive environment it is bad for both the student and the school. The solution starts much earlier in life so that these students are academically well prepared for competitive schools.
20
I assure you that the kids, the teachers and schools are OK. The problem here is dysfunctional parents.
Education is a partnership between the schools and parents but when you have parents, native-born parents, who cannot speak English correctly, parents who will not attend parent-teacher conferences, parents who give their kids strange names, parents who do not help their kids with homework, what do you expect?
In the affected areas keep the kids away from their parents for as long as possible. Lengthen the school day to about 6 p.m. Hire a second set of teachers to relieve the first set of teachers so as to bring the school day to a later ending. Offer some adult education to remedy the underlying problem.
Education is a partnership between the schools and parents but when you have parents, native-born parents, who cannot speak English correctly, parents who will not attend parent-teacher conferences, parents who give their kids strange names, parents who do not help their kids with homework, what do you expect?
In the affected areas keep the kids away from their parents for as long as possible. Lengthen the school day to about 6 p.m. Hire a second set of teachers to relieve the first set of teachers so as to bring the school day to a later ending. Offer some adult education to remedy the underlying problem.
9
You hit the target in one place - strengthening the teacher corps. The obstacle has nothing to do with whether the current Mayor is facing reelection, and everything to do with the death grip of labor on public education. Budget priorities have to be radically changed if quality schools are to be made available to all city students, and that can be done by professionalizing the teachers.
1
Why is it okay to discriminate against smart children? We spend infinite resources on moving the bottom 25% up in this country and almost NOTHING on those in the top 25% - if a child shows higher level functioning, whether low income, middle class or wealthy our public schools fail them by letting them languish in a classroom that is not suited to their natural ability. We take their high test scores but we leave it to their parents or maybe a very, very special teacher to make sure their experience matches their intellect, often outside school. We literally halt the potential of these kids.
41
It will take a village to fix the problem. Unfortunately, personal responsibility was missing. Low incomes are not just limited to certain minority groups. It is a fact! How are you going to address the issue? Affirmative action is unfair especially to certain minority group. Why do you want to punish hard working people for your arbitrary fairness?!
8
The two tiered system of education opportunities in New York is shameful, and it is a dark blot in politics (the art of the possible), more akin to 'politicking' for personal gain than breaking the inequities condemning the poor to second class citizens, the denial of equal opportunities starting in infancy...and 'preserving' discrimination all the way to college. Mr. de Blasio, we need to hear from you, and unequivocally so, so we know who you are, what your values are, whose friendships you treasure more, the haves or the have-nots; it's that simple. And that important.
Your editorial is very telling in your last sentence. It's really about the middle class and the poor, not the wealthy
2
You can always adopt our system in Louisville KY. Forced busing! It doesn't work for education and does nothing for integration but it sure feels good to say we are trying.
5
Asians thrive whether integrated/segregated. Why?
Maybe generally failing "others"need to replicate educational/life strategies exhibited by thoroughly succeeding others--Jews, Asians, Irish, Italians, Cubans etc.
Maybe generally failing "others"need to replicate educational/life strategies exhibited by thoroughly succeeding others--Jews, Asians, Irish, Italians, Cubans etc.
12
Why is the solution for “poor” schools always to move the students to “better” schools? Are the teachers at “poor” schools less dedicated, less competent than those at the “better” schools? Why isn't the choice to improve “poor” schools instead of thinking that moving them to “better” schools will change their outcomes? Of course, moving students to a “good” school is much easier than improving a “poor” one, but the problems of “poor” students will remain.
6
On top of it being patronizing and racist in and of itself, a bit like colonialism - the whole notion that poor students of color need rich white folks to succeed. Yuck.
Where is the logic? The NYTimes consistently starts at the wrong end of the problem of racial unevenness in the public schools. If a child reaches kindergarten without ever having had a book read to her, never having learned the value of sitting quietly and doing mental work, or that such activities are rewarded - with feelings of accomplishment as well as praise, is it not illogical if not unjust to blame the teacher, the school or the family who encourages the skills needed to learn. And how mean-spirited it is to advocate punishing the children who work hard and achieve and learn by not allowing them an appropriate school setting. Why not instead address the problem where it actually begins - in the families unable to teach their children the skills and behaviors necessary for success in school. Begin with setting up "learning centers" in impoverished neighborhoods, where parents, infants and preschoolers can prepare together. And always hold every child to the same academic standards, rewarding achievement instead if skin color. "Dumbing down" standards has already put us at the near bottom in international academic competition - and it doesn't seem to have helped alleviate racial disparities either.
7
Teachers are really unaware of what their students need to get into better schools? That is amazingly terrible management. Integrating the schools won't matter unless the schools are all managed with the goal of all students succeeding. Then, it will only work if parents are involved. Destroying the best schools will only make everyone mediocre.
2
"Get rid of the school entrance requirement system in favor of one that allows children to apply to any school in any area, with all admissions decided by lotteries. " Yes, ending tests and studying is the answer from liberals one again! No mention of individual effort! All NYC students are offered free tutoring and study assistance to prepare for admission tests! Stops hanging out at basketball courts and start reading! If poor Asian immigrants can learn English and also study enough to pass selective high school admission's test so can other minorities!
7
School choice requires planning and research on the part of students and their families. Depending on the desired school, it may also require careful choice of place of residence, affirmative application to a lottery or registration for a test. Students with more educated, involved parents are better able to do all of that. The barrier is culture and family situation, not race. Look at the success of a program like Louis Armstrong Middle School, which is notably racially diverse and admits students of all academic achievement levels. Because it requires a separate application, its students typically have motivated and involved families. And that means that these diverse students tend to succeed.
3
Years ago, I talked to a man who, at great expense, was sending his two sons to private school. I asked him why and I settled in for a long discourse on curriculum, pedagogy, a society of scholarship, etc. The totality of his answer: I don't want my boys getting beaten up.
Solve the violence problem and you solve the segregation problem. But the Democratic Party cannot do it because Black children would be getting disciplined at higher rates, never mind that most Black children are being cheated of their education by classroom disruption.
In the 1960's, Mark Twain Middle School was over 90% Black in a district that was 86% White. In 1971 a federal court ordered NYC to balance the racial makeup of MTMS. NYC was forced to offer a true academic education and and White families came flocking. NYC schools that offer a true academic education, like MTMS and Stuyvesant High School, have no trouble attracting and keeping White families. But the Dems cannot do this in all the schools because a true academic education must create "gaps". Never mind that the vast majority of Black students are injured by the lack of a true academic education.
In short, it is the policies and practices of the Democratic Party and the Education Mafia, and nothing else, that create segregation in the NYC public schools.
Solve the violence problem and you solve the segregation problem. But the Democratic Party cannot do it because Black children would be getting disciplined at higher rates, never mind that most Black children are being cheated of their education by classroom disruption.
In the 1960's, Mark Twain Middle School was over 90% Black in a district that was 86% White. In 1971 a federal court ordered NYC to balance the racial makeup of MTMS. NYC was forced to offer a true academic education and and White families came flocking. NYC schools that offer a true academic education, like MTMS and Stuyvesant High School, have no trouble attracting and keeping White families. But the Dems cannot do this in all the schools because a true academic education must create "gaps". Never mind that the vast majority of Black students are injured by the lack of a true academic education.
In short, it is the policies and practices of the Democratic Party and the Education Mafia, and nothing else, that create segregation in the NYC public schools.
11
I have great respect for the man who sent his two sons to private school and sympathy for the fact that he was paying for schools that he could not use. Unfortunately, I was not so lucky. I will remember that bitter experience for the rest of my life.
2
Sadly, a lot of truth here.
Increasing the number of charters would help alleviate this inequality. Stop pandering to the teachers unions and put students first - increase charters now!!
9
Charters will not solve every problem, but they have one thing going for them: parental buy-in.
If your mom says to you, "The neighborhood schools is dangerous and not very good, but you're stuck so you have to go," that's not persuasive.
If your mom says, "I chose this school for you because I think it will be a good place for you to learn," that gives the place credibility. It also is more likely to cause the parent to participate in school activities and to befriend other parents who believe in the school and its potential to benefit their children.
These are important messages.
If your mom says to you, "The neighborhood schools is dangerous and not very good, but you're stuck so you have to go," that's not persuasive.
If your mom says, "I chose this school for you because I think it will be a good place for you to learn," that gives the place credibility. It also is more likely to cause the parent to participate in school activities and to befriend other parents who believe in the school and its potential to benefit their children.
These are important messages.
The solution is simple, so much so that it is simply Bloombergian. Forcibly relocate the population until balance is achieved.
1
Mix up low-income low-performing kids with upper middle class white kids by lottery? Watch the white and Asian middle class and upper middle class families flee the city before you know it.
40
Which is what happened in the 1960s and 70s. But at least back then there were more parochial schools to keep the middle-class in the city, like my parents.
Provide GOOD day care for children from birth through 5. Back it up with parental education. For everybody.
4
Good parental education starts in the classroom when the parents are in grade school.
Why is anyone surprised that the wide swaths of under-prepared, under-educated parents of children in the urban school system are producing poorly socialized, functionally illiterate off-spring.
And, on the opposite end of the scale, why is anyone surprised that the wide swaths of under-prepared, marginally socialized snowflakes of the "entitled" generations parented by helicopters are having problems adjusting to the realities of the world.
When is anyone in a position to do things going to be honest enough to recognize that the problems are real and that the solutions of the past half-century aren't making any progress towards correcting the issues?
Why is anyone surprised that the wide swaths of under-prepared, under-educated parents of children in the urban school system are producing poorly socialized, functionally illiterate off-spring.
And, on the opposite end of the scale, why is anyone surprised that the wide swaths of under-prepared, marginally socialized snowflakes of the "entitled" generations parented by helicopters are having problems adjusting to the realities of the world.
When is anyone in a position to do things going to be honest enough to recognize that the problems are real and that the solutions of the past half-century aren't making any progress towards correcting the issues?
1
I guess its time for liberals to destroy Bronx Science and Stuyvesant in the name of diversity.
27
No, the point is that children from every middle school in the city should have a chance at meeting the standards for Bronx Science and Stuy. 95% of middle schools are not sending kids to the most selective schools.
1
I consider myself left of center and believe that Stuy, Bronx Science and the other specialized schools are actually the only meritocracy that we have in the school selection process. We should never change it. We need to, instead, bolster the elementary schools to better prepare kids for these schools.
1
on the money.
3
We have spend almost three decades trying to increase achievement in our public schools. Every attempt whether No Child Left Behind or Common Core or Charter Schools, the list is long...Yet, there is abundant research showing one reform that always works---integration---yes, you remember that awful busing episode in our history, which, when you look at the numbers, worked for poor and minority students. But that was a social experiment our deeply racists society could not sustain---in fact---we did the opposite--stop busing and then engaged in purposeful policies that based achievement on zip codes--that is where we stand today. And so, we will keep looking for Super teachers/principals, some break-through technology, the latest pedagogical technique of the day, or a new form of privatization, when, right in front of our policy eyes lies the solution to our yearly achievement gap lament.
1
The court-ordered bussing in Roxbury and Dorcester didn't solve many problems in the Boston area...
And, it also lead to students having to spend up to four hours of their days riding to and from their assigned schools, most of which came at the expense of both good-nights sleep and classroom participation.
Yep...Bussing is the solution, all right.
And, it also lead to students having to spend up to four hours of their days riding to and from their assigned schools, most of which came at the expense of both good-nights sleep and classroom participation.
Yep...Bussing is the solution, all right.
1
NYC is run by a democrat who is perfectly fine with separate but equal. Democrats and soft racism have always been married at the hip. You get the government you deserve.
4
As opposed to Republicans that do what exactly? So far all I've seen from this administration is cut the budget for most things that actually help people.
A school lottery may lead to MORE middle and upper-middle class parents opting for specialized schools over "regular" public schools and/or families leaving public schools, period. This won't solve ANYTHING.
14
This editorial is very good at setting out the problem, but is solution free.
First, no matter how good the schools are, it is a statistical fact that 50% of them must be, by definition, below average. That is simply what an average is. The question is, what criteria will the schools use to select which students are in which schools.
To select by achievement, either by testing, auditions, or portfolios of work, does allow the students who have demonstrated higher potential to attend the schools which will best nurture that potential. It does, however, work against those who have not had the opportunity to fully develop their potential in the lower grades.
To select by geography allows the students to maintain the friendships developed out of school, allows the maximum potential for parental involvement in the school, and keeps the costs of selection and transportation lowest. Obviously, however, it furthers a pattern of residential segregation into the school system.
The people of New York, or any other city, need to evaluate the possibilities and elect a school board who will implement the mix of geographical and achievement based selections favored by the majority of them. This question should be one of, if not the, most important ones addressed by candidates for the Board of Education.
First, no matter how good the schools are, it is a statistical fact that 50% of them must be, by definition, below average. That is simply what an average is. The question is, what criteria will the schools use to select which students are in which schools.
To select by achievement, either by testing, auditions, or portfolios of work, does allow the students who have demonstrated higher potential to attend the schools which will best nurture that potential. It does, however, work against those who have not had the opportunity to fully develop their potential in the lower grades.
To select by geography allows the students to maintain the friendships developed out of school, allows the maximum potential for parental involvement in the school, and keeps the costs of selection and transportation lowest. Obviously, however, it furthers a pattern of residential segregation into the school system.
The people of New York, or any other city, need to evaluate the possibilities and elect a school board who will implement the mix of geographical and achievement based selections favored by the majority of them. This question should be one of, if not the, most important ones addressed by candidates for the Board of Education.
There are several problems with desegregation that never seem to make it in the public eye. For example, not every family is equally invested in education. I live in District 15 which has middle school choice, a smaller version of the city wide high school system. There are 15 schools to choose from.
While some families base their application on things like test scores, available programs, and which High Schools graduates tend to get into, other families base their selections on proximity to home, the amount of homework assigned, whether relatives attend the school "for back-up" or whether the school has lockers.
The over arching thing that makes a school "good" is it's students and families. Schools full of the children of college graduates are going to have higher test scores that those full of families of high school graduates or less.
Any move to diversify schools through lotteries is inevitably going to make the "good" schools less "good". If you fill Stuyvesant High School with ninth graders who enter with fourth grade reading levels what do you think is going to happen?
While some families base their application on things like test scores, available programs, and which High Schools graduates tend to get into, other families base their selections on proximity to home, the amount of homework assigned, whether relatives attend the school "for back-up" or whether the school has lockers.
The over arching thing that makes a school "good" is it's students and families. Schools full of the children of college graduates are going to have higher test scores that those full of families of high school graduates or less.
Any move to diversify schools through lotteries is inevitably going to make the "good" schools less "good". If you fill Stuyvesant High School with ninth graders who enter with fourth grade reading levels what do you think is going to happen?
8
Here's the conundrum: We believe that a good education will lead to an improvement in one's SES. After all we all know someone for whom this happened. Maybe that belief isn't quite accurate - anymore. Maybe one's SES status is what enables a good education. Common sense tell us we have to address the problems from both aspects. The problem with the problem is that we believe in an isolated solution. There is simply no simple answer to this.
de Blasio is doing his best to please everyone, but he's in a very difficult situation, as few middle class parents are willing to "sacrifice" a top-tier education for their children in order to solve difficult social problems like segregation. I think there are a few smaller steps dB might take to chip away at this problem without alienating the politically powerful middle class:
1. Create an affirmative-action like program at the top 50-100 elementary and middle schools in NYC, preserving 10-15% of seats for low-income minority students--regardless of whether or not those students are zoned for that school.
2. Create more high-quality, top-tier public schools from K-12, in order to relieve some of the stress that parents endure to send their students to the best school and perhaps to undercut some of the tension that would come from the affirmative action program. The best way to achieve this goal is not by focussing on failing schools, but by focussing on mid-performing schools serving diverse student populations that might thrive (and thus become more attractive to parents) with additional resources for extra-curricular activities, new labs, electives, extra teachers, etc.
3. Allow charter schools that have been proven effective to serve more students in low-income neighborhoods, with caveats for higher SWD/ESL percentages and lower suspension rates.
1. Create an affirmative-action like program at the top 50-100 elementary and middle schools in NYC, preserving 10-15% of seats for low-income minority students--regardless of whether or not those students are zoned for that school.
2. Create more high-quality, top-tier public schools from K-12, in order to relieve some of the stress that parents endure to send their students to the best school and perhaps to undercut some of the tension that would come from the affirmative action program. The best way to achieve this goal is not by focussing on failing schools, but by focussing on mid-performing schools serving diverse student populations that might thrive (and thus become more attractive to parents) with additional resources for extra-curricular activities, new labs, electives, extra teachers, etc.
3. Allow charter schools that have been proven effective to serve more students in low-income neighborhoods, with caveats for higher SWD/ESL percentages and lower suspension rates.
1
Good grief, editorial board, I am as liberal as they come and I can still see the giant hole in your argument: Choice isn't the problem, but lack of choice. Make all high schools good, as well as elementary and middle schools, and the choice system would work very well. It would also help if you acknowledged that there are many good high schools beyond Beacon and Bronx Science, including those that serve average students, and we need more of those, not more schools that only serve the 90+ students. We are an upper middle class white family with access to all the best public schools, and I am very glad we had lots of choices for our B- child. He chose Essex Street Academy, a small, very diverse school on the lower east side, and got an excellent education. Instead of changing the admission criteria for the specialized high schools, why not create more schools like Essex Street? And while we're at it, get rid of the District 2 zoning.
11
Oh my, Katherine...
In typical liberal fashion, you are suggesting a solution that would require a substantial, taxpayer-financed bureaucracy to make happen.
Aren't the taxes in NYC high enough already?
In typical liberal fashion, you are suggesting a solution that would require a substantial, taxpayer-financed bureaucracy to make happen.
Aren't the taxes in NYC high enough already?
Why not apply the University of Texas system to high school choice? There the top 10% who graduate from all high schools are guaranteed a spot at UT and rememdial help if needed. The same could be done in NYC with the top choice high schools. Intervention in ninth grade must be easier than intervention as a freshman at UT. Of course it will cost NYC more resources, but it is worth it to improve a failing system which has been failing for far too long.
Is the Times minimizing or trivializing DeBlasio's explanation for why there is still inequality in schools? Diluting the quality of NYC's best schools by admitting large amounts of students that are not prepared or qualified to attend them, won't help matters for the many kids who still won't get into them. It will only lessen the quality of these schools. As for those who think that the answer is just to "replace the teaching corp" in under performing schools, good luck! Great teachers cannot be conjured up or made to order. All teachers must be well compensated and supported with the best resources and development available, to help lift kids from poverty to opportunity through education. And all schools must be given the resources they need to support their teachers and their students. If public education disappears and is replaced by "charter schools," the latter will soon finds they are mysteriously facing the same challenges and failures of public schools.
2
I am an immigrant not born in this country and English was not the primary language spoken at home. I am brown. My parents were very poor during my entire childhood. I went to elementary school, middle school, and high school in a very poor/rural South Carolina public school system. Less than half of my high school class graduated and about 10% went to college.
My parents always stressed the importance of education and spent time after long hours at work making sure I progressed in my studies. They never relied on the school as the sole source of education. I got a full ride to college and paid for my expensive, private, elite medical school education by joining the Air Force. I am now a very productive member of society, paying large amounts of taxes.
I am offended by the number of excuses put forward to justify poor performance. Until parents take responsibility for their children (rich or poor, white or black, gifted or not) and quit expecting the schools to do tall he work for them, nothing will improve. If you take children with no parental nurturing and guidance and put them in the best elementary school, they will still perform worse than a child with a strong family background. If you don't believe me, ask my children's teachers who always thank us for the support we give our children.
I believe it is reasonable to put the onus on parents to build a strong foundation on which the schools may build.
My parents always stressed the importance of education and spent time after long hours at work making sure I progressed in my studies. They never relied on the school as the sole source of education. I got a full ride to college and paid for my expensive, private, elite medical school education by joining the Air Force. I am now a very productive member of society, paying large amounts of taxes.
I am offended by the number of excuses put forward to justify poor performance. Until parents take responsibility for their children (rich or poor, white or black, gifted or not) and quit expecting the schools to do tall he work for them, nothing will improve. If you take children with no parental nurturing and guidance and put them in the best elementary school, they will still perform worse than a child with a strong family background. If you don't believe me, ask my children's teachers who always thank us for the support we give our children.
I believe it is reasonable to put the onus on parents to build a strong foundation on which the schools may build.
61
Believe it or not, there are poor children who would like to do well in school and further their education, who don't have two parents, or whose parents are disinterested.
2
Thank you, Dr. Krishna, for your contributions to our community.
I am afraid, though, the message that you bring will be lost on most.
I am afraid, though, the message that you bring will be lost on most.
3
Onus on parents yes, but as an immigrant, and someone who isn't black, you did not grow up with an experience of racism that in any way compares to that of American blacks and Latinos.
Look at this statement: "But many of the most desirable high schools seem to have washed their hands of all but the best-prepared students by basing admission on auditions, or scores on a one-day, high-stakes test, or top performance on statewide exams, or portfolios of middle school work. Others apply vague entrance criteria that leave a room for arbitrariness."
So the author is against basically any method that elite high schools might use to select bright, high-potential kids. Personally, I think we coddle kids too much in general. Most of the world just uses test scores. This problem starts so much earlier than high school. It won't be solved by changing admission policies for selective schools. The solution is preparing lower income students better-- this is a harder challenge but also doable.
So the author is against basically any method that elite high schools might use to select bright, high-potential kids. Personally, I think we coddle kids too much in general. Most of the world just uses test scores. This problem starts so much earlier than high school. It won't be solved by changing admission policies for selective schools. The solution is preparing lower income students better-- this is a harder challenge but also doable.
8
Ah, true.
But to do that, the schools...and the teachers...are going to have to address where they are failing...
And, as we all know, the teachers can do no wrong, and the administrators are too insecure to allow that to happen on their watch.
But to do that, the schools...and the teachers...are going to have to address where they are failing...
And, as we all know, the teachers can do no wrong, and the administrators are too insecure to allow that to happen on their watch.
I was born in 1964 and went to my local public schools in Queens through high school. When I was in 6th grade, the NYC public schools apparently did an experiment in which they mixed the slower kids into the same classes as those who were testing at a higher level and were brighter. I cannot tell you how frustrating it was to sit in a classroom every day with kids my age in my class who could barely read. It slowed down the progress of the smarter kids. Although there was independent instruction of the smart kids for one hour sessions two or three times a week, that was not sufficient. Using test scores as a basis to deny entrance to certain students at specific schools is absolutely necessary.
26
I had that experience for 7 years. I learned NOTHING in school during those 7 years. I would doodle and day dream. My sister and I learned in the public library, after school.
5
I was subjected to the same social experiment in elementary school in the 70's. I also had the added bonus of a 1 hour bus ride into the worst neighborhood in town. There was no way my parents could have afforded private school. I was bored out of my mind and routinely physically attacked for being the "smart white boy". My old man taught me how fight, and once I bested one of my attackers the bullying stopped. After 2 years of hell, the district instituted a merit based, self contained program for kids who tested ahead of the curve, I was accepted and life got much better.
It is encouraging that the New York Times has put a spotlight on the segregation of NYC school children, the worst in the nation. It is unfortunate, however, that the editorial board points to the least effective means to desegregating schools--retraining or replacing teachers. Most reliable research points to poverty as the main factor of underperforming students and schools. The recent NY Times article on how real estate practices and tax laws also favor middle class and upper middle class families is one place to start to help raise the outcomes for the children of the working poor. Rewrite the tax laws to give working families tax advantages that will give them an incentive to move into any neighborhood in the city. Give stipends to poor and working poor families that would allow them to live at least at four times the poverty level. This will need to include immigrant families to be effective.
Some form of randomly assigning students would be most effective especially if special education students and limited English proficient students were assigned in equal proportions across the city. Support each school in working with their most challenged students. Community schools that provide health care programs are essential. Full arts, music, foreign language and physical education programs have to be rebuilt into all schools' curricula. Punitive actions allowed during Bloomberg era in teacher and administrator contracts don't work. These clauses should be removed.
Some form of randomly assigning students would be most effective especially if special education students and limited English proficient students were assigned in equal proportions across the city. Support each school in working with their most challenged students. Community schools that provide health care programs are essential. Full arts, music, foreign language and physical education programs have to be rebuilt into all schools' curricula. Punitive actions allowed during Bloomberg era in teacher and administrator contracts don't work. These clauses should be removed.
13
"Punitive actions" should be removed? Like firing bad teachers? Why is that a concept that is universally accepted as logical in every other sector of the economy--an employer's right to fire bad employees--is considered outrageous in the context of teaching? Teachers have convinced themselves that they are a special class who should be exempt from any kind of standards. Unfortunately they and their union leaders have convinced the politicians (especially DeBlasio) of the truth of their conviction.
Nadelstein was not part of a very successful administration says this parent and educator who put two children through the system in those dreadful years. But "He recently proposed that the city get rid of the school entrance requirement system in favor of one that allows children to apply to any school in any area, with all admissions decided by lotteries. This would, I suppose, eliminate any zoning preference.
The schools of Northeastern Queens, for example, are already bursting at the seams by the current variant of this program, accompanied by an extreme off-budget busing program. They are thereby diminished for the students living in their zones.
Full implementation, per Nadelstein, will assure white (and Asian) flight and leave only the buildings available to his project.
The schools of Northeastern Queens, for example, are already bursting at the seams by the current variant of this program, accompanied by an extreme off-budget busing program. They are thereby diminished for the students living in their zones.
Full implementation, per Nadelstein, will assure white (and Asian) flight and leave only the buildings available to his project.
2
Here is D.C., we have a similar problem. If you ask me, it's because D.C. has no true middle class, at least not when it comes to families (I'm not including young professionals without children).
The price of housing is astronomical in all but a very few poor neighborhoods that many are afraid to venture into, which means that only the very rich can afford to live there, other than the pockets of the poor. The rich send their children to private school and have absolutely no incentive to invest the public schools. Meanwhile, everybody who is left over who can't afford private school either moves to the suburbs, thus eliminating the middle class from the system, or if they can't afford to move they send their kids to public school. So now you see that public schools are populated almost exclusively by the very poorest and generally minority populations and nobody with any weight is willing to speak on their behalf.
I send my kids to school in the suburbs of D.C., and what a difference! My son's classroom has kids with every skintone from almost every continent, and it is so diverse that no one group could be considered the dominant ethnicity. Why, you ask? Because housing in this area has a mix of affordable and expensive housing so the rich are willing to pitch in. Isn't it amazing how that works...
The price of housing is astronomical in all but a very few poor neighborhoods that many are afraid to venture into, which means that only the very rich can afford to live there, other than the pockets of the poor. The rich send their children to private school and have absolutely no incentive to invest the public schools. Meanwhile, everybody who is left over who can't afford private school either moves to the suburbs, thus eliminating the middle class from the system, or if they can't afford to move they send their kids to public school. So now you see that public schools are populated almost exclusively by the very poorest and generally minority populations and nobody with any weight is willing to speak on their behalf.
I send my kids to school in the suburbs of D.C., and what a difference! My son's classroom has kids with every skintone from almost every continent, and it is so diverse that no one group could be considered the dominant ethnicity. Why, you ask? Because housing in this area has a mix of affordable and expensive housing so the rich are willing to pitch in. Isn't it amazing how that works...
4
Education is a two way street and involves commitment from birth. It is the obligation of parents to educate their children and prepare them to succeed. If the child is not getting support at home, they will not succeed in school. If you don't want to commit to supporting your child's education, you either should not be having that child or you should stop complaining.
The proposals in this editorial would just support a race to mediocrity. Students at the bottom would get a slightly better education, but students at the top (and I don't mean the top 1%, I mean the upper half) would have their education severely weakened. And as a result, those who can will remove themselves from the system, further weakening it. This plan will only serve to increase suburban home prices and make getting into private school harder as countless students will be leaving.
The proposals in this editorial would just support a race to mediocrity. Students at the bottom would get a slightly better education, but students at the top (and I don't mean the top 1%, I mean the upper half) would have their education severely weakened. And as a result, those who can will remove themselves from the system, further weakening it. This plan will only serve to increase suburban home prices and make getting into private school harder as countless students will be leaving.
20
What, exactly, happens to a child comes from a home with high social capital who attends a less-than-stellar-school? Does bad schooling make smart kids dumb? Or unable to succeed?
Check out the research on the topic before jumping on the "race to mediocrity" canard.
My wife and I are both well educated (two graduate degrees), middle class, children of immigrants. We intend on sending our child to the local public school, as long as he is safe. I have no fear that the quality of his education will deter his progress in life. Having attended private schools as a child, followed by public university for college, however, I do fear he end up with the same corrosive, elitist class attitudes on display in any discussion of education in America.
I don't care so much if my son gets to have the newest latest computers in his classroom; or the best field trips; or a teacher rated AAA by the latest standardized test. I want my child to learn how difficult things can be for others in life, and to realize that no matter the difficulties he may face, he's already, by virtue of the (two, educated) parents he has, privileged, and as prepared as he needs to be to succeed. And I want him to learn to care for his community as much as for himself and his education.
Check out the research on the topic before jumping on the "race to mediocrity" canard.
My wife and I are both well educated (two graduate degrees), middle class, children of immigrants. We intend on sending our child to the local public school, as long as he is safe. I have no fear that the quality of his education will deter his progress in life. Having attended private schools as a child, followed by public university for college, however, I do fear he end up with the same corrosive, elitist class attitudes on display in any discussion of education in America.
I don't care so much if my son gets to have the newest latest computers in his classroom; or the best field trips; or a teacher rated AAA by the latest standardized test. I want my child to learn how difficult things can be for others in life, and to realize that no matter the difficulties he may face, he's already, by virtue of the (two, educated) parents he has, privileged, and as prepared as he needs to be to succeed. And I want him to learn to care for his community as much as for himself and his education.
1
"By eighth grade, however, many low-income black and Hispanic children who have spent their early grades confined to failing schools — and passed through similarly poor middle schools — have already fallen too far behind in the competition for the high schools that could prepare them for college."
So how then do lotteries or whatever to get into *high* schools help the kids, or the schools? If the kids are more or less non-students by high school, then letting them into better high schools does not help them and harms the high schools.
The problem is to integrate THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS--an approach you say nothing about in your editorial.
So how then do lotteries or whatever to get into *high* schools help the kids, or the schools? If the kids are more or less non-students by high school, then letting them into better high schools does not help them and harms the high schools.
The problem is to integrate THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS--an approach you say nothing about in your editorial.
9
If things cannot be solved with school choice why isn't the mayor and Board of Education doing the next best thing: fixing the schools literally and educationally? Why not fix the neighborhoods? People living in NYC pay enough in taxes to the point where they ought to be able to expect that the schools in any neighborhood are good enough for the children there to acquire a good K-12 education, graduate reading, writing, and doing other things at grade level, and ready to work once they graduate or to go to college.
The problems here and elsewhere cannot be blamed on the unions. The unions do not set the tax rate, or the curriculum. Voters and parents do it. Perhaps it's time to spell out to every voter in NYC and in the country that if we want good schools we have to spend the money. It's better to spend the money up front rather later on when it costs much more. All children should be able to get a good education if we put our money where it counts: at the start of life and the into the preschool years and into supporting the family.
The problems here and elsewhere cannot be blamed on the unions. The unions do not set the tax rate, or the curriculum. Voters and parents do it. Perhaps it's time to spell out to every voter in NYC and in the country that if we want good schools we have to spend the money. It's better to spend the money up front rather later on when it costs much more. All children should be able to get a good education if we put our money where it counts: at the start of life and the into the preschool years and into supporting the family.
4
I grew up in a row-home in Philadelphia with a vibration library and an equally vibrant playground with a full-time recreational department leader. We played sports, had art, and read books. (And much of it was overseen by parents). I also attended the local Catholic School; my parents sacrificed much, even meals to keep us educated. I was part of a pack of 8 buddies and was the poorest of the lot; those who went to Catholic School finished college. The others didn't but found careers. In my time, bussing kids into different districts was the rage. It seemed like a good idea, but it simply took money from the classroom and placed it in bussing. A cultural shift is necessary, not just at the schools, but in the communities. Schools need to change, but so do parents. We demur to video games instead of reading, playing, art, and chores around the house. Boys should start kindergarten at age 6, when they are more cognitively ready, instead of 5. More pre-school, which New York is doing. Kindergarten is now first grade and it hurts minority/low-income students, particularly boys who are further behind in school than girls. Single sex schools should be an option in low income areas for boys and girls to employ gender specific models. Community projects where different schools get together and complete tasks can bring unity. Segregation is part of the problem, but divorce, fatherlessness, fewer affordable after school programs, and the upended family unit may be bigger.
21
Great points, but as you point out if parents are prepared and sacrifice to actually properly raise their children things generally work out. If you don't have the capacity or desire to actually properly raise a child, just don't have any.
3
I can see both sides of the argument. As tax payers of New York City, poor and minority children should not be consigned to failing elementary and middle schools just because they reside near them. This is the entire argument behind charters - which now serve 10% of all students in New York City. To help the other 90%, however, perhaps younger children should have the option of attending schools outside their zoned area.
Having said that, I reject the idea of "controlled choice" or other forms of forced integration. Can you imagine being the parents of a middle class New York family in Queens being compelled to send your children to a distant school in another borough because that failing school lacked sufficient white or middle class students ?
Bloomberg's policies promoting high school choice have already elevated graduation rates by 20%. We should not dismantle such a successful program but rather expand it to younger children - while preserving neighborhood schools (with charters for choice) as a reliable option.
Having said that, I reject the idea of "controlled choice" or other forms of forced integration. Can you imagine being the parents of a middle class New York family in Queens being compelled to send your children to a distant school in another borough because that failing school lacked sufficient white or middle class students ?
Bloomberg's policies promoting high school choice have already elevated graduation rates by 20%. We should not dismantle such a successful program but rather expand it to younger children - while preserving neighborhood schools (with charters for choice) as a reliable option.
19
"Can you imagine being the parents of a middle class New York family in Queens being compelled to send your children to a distant school in another borough because that failing school lacked sufficient white or middle class students ? "
I remember reading that NYC does not have enough white, middle class students available to integrate all schools. The more the city tries to force
white, middle class students to attend failing minority majority schools, the greater the incentive for those white, middle class parents to send their children to private schools, or move to the suburbs.
I remember reading that NYC does not have enough white, middle class students available to integrate all schools. The more the city tries to force
white, middle class students to attend failing minority majority schools, the greater the incentive for those white, middle class parents to send their children to private schools, or move to the suburbs.
3
Not to mention it is very racist to insist that any race can't learn without a mixture. How do children in some African countries learn without white people?
2
It's called bussing and it happened all over the South.
Choice is good but one should be prepared for it. There are thousands of eighth graders that are in the special education population that articulate to high schools every year. But these students may not get their 'dream schools' due to lack of preparation, poverty,little or no parental involvement and the other distractions from the streets.What are teachers to do? They try their best to meet the IEP requirements and to advocate for the child to go to a good high school. But here's the thing: a special education eighth-grader has to keep-up with others from traditional high schools. He or she may find this challenging
and may lead to frustration. Thus system that argues in favor of choice creates stigma and leaves students by the wayside.
and may lead to frustration. Thus system that argues in favor of choice creates stigma and leaves students by the wayside.
The system does not leave them by the side of the road their parents did that a long time ago.
2
First and foremost we must address our concerns to the education of our children in preparation for their entry into civic responsibility and preparation for ever-changing work requirements. If we are seriously going to address this goal we need to address class size. The single most indicator of school excellence is the ratio of full-time professional teacher to student ratio. The process of juggling students into the best and most diverse schools is a futile exercise if all schools don't have sufficient staff to provide for the educational needs of their students.
2
I work in a tiny middle school that serves one of the most underserved neighborhoods in the Bronx. It is funded by donors, enabling 90 students to receive a private middle school education for a nominal monthly fee. The teachers work tirelessly, creatively, passionately. We have access to an army of tutors who help the students who struggle the most. Daily attendance is virtually 100% and we have broad parental support. Yet, despite all of this, it is an onerous task to make up for a system that has been failing them from K to 5th grade. They are not just behind academically, many don't even know how to "be" in a school. So many students enter our school with challenging behavior issues born of lack of discipline and chaos in their past schools, and they have little knowledge of the types of study skills that create a successful student. Therefore our school, with all that it has to offer, struggles to put these students on par with their affluent counterparts by 9th grade. So I ask, what chance do those attending public middle school have? We need to direct our attention to what is happening in underserved public elementary schools, and fast. Or these conversations are pointless.
49
I am going to guess that the "lack of discipline and chaos" was not the fault of their past school but that it started in their past family life and was then brought into their past school. My children attended a so-called failing school but because of their homelife, they excelled in elementary school, were accepted into excellent middle and high schools. You can take the same "failing school" and replace half of the children with middle class children and that school will suddenly be a successful school that everyone wants their kid to go to. The teachers, rooms and materials would not need to change and yet test scores would suddenly go through the roof. Ultimately what is required is a means of moving poor families into the middle class - everything short of that is ignoring the core issue.
12
Trust me, their k-5 teachers tried really hard to work on the discipline and chaos issues, undoubtedly with lack of administrative support and other necessary staffing. The behaviors are more deeply rooted than what was or wasn't taught in schools.
3
& by the way, as this teacher's note evidences, the Times's dig at the teachers at the end of this editorial is gratuitous and further undermines the seriousness of the paper's opinion.
3
The increasingly widespread use of the term "segregation" to denote observed racial imbalances is both inaccurate and iniquitous. Traditionally the term has implied intentionality.
Its current use appears designed to light a fire under authorities by suggesting that these imbalances result from deliberate policies intended to produce that outcome. Without further evidence of wrongdoing, this use is unfair and inflammatory.
In fact, such imbalances may result from a variety of economic and social factors and may have defied rigorous attempts to combat them. Certainly strenuous efforts are required to correct the situation, but it serves no one, except ideologues, to suggest that those making the policies are automatically racist villains.
Its current use appears designed to light a fire under authorities by suggesting that these imbalances result from deliberate policies intended to produce that outcome. Without further evidence of wrongdoing, this use is unfair and inflammatory.
In fact, such imbalances may result from a variety of economic and social factors and may have defied rigorous attempts to combat them. Certainly strenuous efforts are required to correct the situation, but it serves no one, except ideologues, to suggest that those making the policies are automatically racist villains.
32
The idea that school segregation is "accidental" is a ridiculously naive idea.
For a clear exploration of how the process works in New York City I suggest
this commentator read "Choosing a School for My Daughter in a Segregated City" by Nikole Hannah-Jones in the June 9, 2016 edition of The New York Times magazine.
As a white woman who raised a daughter in New York City and whose granddaughter now attends a magnet school in Harlem I have seen first hand how the system operates. It may be well disguised racism but it is racism nonetheless.
For a clear exploration of how the process works in New York City I suggest
this commentator read "Choosing a School for My Daughter in a Segregated City" by Nikole Hannah-Jones in the June 9, 2016 edition of The New York Times magazine.
As a white woman who raised a daughter in New York City and whose granddaughter now attends a magnet school in Harlem I have seen first hand how the system operates. It may be well disguised racism but it is racism nonetheless.
1
"...children who have already fallen too far behind..."
Segregation is a terrible problem shared by many cities across the US. But trying to "catch kids up" after they have fallen behind is a more immediate problem. Expending resources on remedial classes for students who are behind entering high school or entering college is foolish and expensive.
It's too late. It only proves that we don't really care until we realize that we HAVE TO care.
Segregation is a terrible problem shared by many cities across the US. But trying to "catch kids up" after they have fallen behind is a more immediate problem. Expending resources on remedial classes for students who are behind entering high school or entering college is foolish and expensive.
It's too late. It only proves that we don't really care until we realize that we HAVE TO care.
4
In the early 60's when demands for desegregation of schools in Greensboro resulted in the famous sit-ins, marches, boycotts and demonstrations, a young black who was going to school in NY for a year lamented to his teacher that he was going to miss the victory over segregation; his teacher responded, “You could be gone for 100 years and not miss that.”
The 1954 Brown decision was met immediately with evasions in varying degrees of subtlety, shifting the responsibility for integration to the people of color, then withholding what was needed to succeed, making the process difficult, and giving those in power various criteria for denying admittance on grounds not ostensibly racial. Black students continued to walk or be bussed past white schools to a black school. NC was a leader in the infamous “token integration” effectively keeping the courts at bay.
Another aspect was a narrative blaming blacks for inflaming racial discord, jeopardizing our "interracial friendship", sacrificing their racial identity for merger with whites, and that proud blacks should work to develop their own schools and teachers. Governor Hodges famously said, “Only the person who feels he is inferior must resort to demonstrations to prove that he is not.”
Not that much has changed. Segregation remains widespread. Progress is glacial and uneven, at best inch by inch - It must be fought for.
"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will." Frederick Douglass, August 4, 1857.
The 1954 Brown decision was met immediately with evasions in varying degrees of subtlety, shifting the responsibility for integration to the people of color, then withholding what was needed to succeed, making the process difficult, and giving those in power various criteria for denying admittance on grounds not ostensibly racial. Black students continued to walk or be bussed past white schools to a black school. NC was a leader in the infamous “token integration” effectively keeping the courts at bay.
Another aspect was a narrative blaming blacks for inflaming racial discord, jeopardizing our "interracial friendship", sacrificing their racial identity for merger with whites, and that proud blacks should work to develop their own schools and teachers. Governor Hodges famously said, “Only the person who feels he is inferior must resort to demonstrations to prove that he is not.”
Not that much has changed. Segregation remains widespread. Progress is glacial and uneven, at best inch by inch - It must be fought for.
"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will." Frederick Douglass, August 4, 1857.
1
If you begin a system where anyone can attend high school anywhere, and allow it to evolve naturally, parents with some savviness will figure out how to coalesce into a small set of schools and then engage continuously until they get the administration and teaching staff of appropriately high caliber for their decidedly precious offspring. Those with less time, those who value education less, and those who have generally given up on trying to make changes (or never believed they had the power to cause change), will drift into schools where they are at least minimally comfortable with how their kids are raised from 8AM to 3PM each day for nine months. I defy anyone to change this dynamic without throwing a ton of money at 1) good teachers, 2) excellent administration, 3) educating parents, by going into homes as necessary. If we funded schools at half the rate we fund large bombs and bombers, we would see amazing results. Too bad that would mean educating future voters to vote their own actual self interest. Too bad that would overthrow the current system and the comfort and power of those it serves.
2
Looking at recent GAO recommendations to help fix what is a national problem of increasing school segregation ( http://www.gao.gov/products/GAO-16-345 ) it is almost impossible to believe current heads of the Depts. of Justice and Education would help with the sorts of actions that would be required. Given the "trickle-down" philosophy of more conservative Republicans, providing funds to help fight a national disease will not be an easy sell. Charter schools are not going to be an answer, and can be part of the problem.
Given the long-embedded nature of these problems in the USA, I cannot entirely blame Mayor de Blasio for significant pessimism. The fact that we continue to backtrack from Brown v. Board appears almost unfixable given current federal attitudes, and the amounts of concentrated monetary and intellectual resources likely required .
Whatever can be done is likely to require a federal administration more in tune with our long term problems with race and socioeconomic inequality. I wish NYC all the luck in the world with this problem. They are a wealthy city, but even they will need help with the "slow virus" that has long infested our nation.
Given the long-embedded nature of these problems in the USA, I cannot entirely blame Mayor de Blasio for significant pessimism. The fact that we continue to backtrack from Brown v. Board appears almost unfixable given current federal attitudes, and the amounts of concentrated monetary and intellectual resources likely required .
Whatever can be done is likely to require a federal administration more in tune with our long term problems with race and socioeconomic inequality. I wish NYC all the luck in the world with this problem. They are a wealthy city, but even they will need help with the "slow virus" that has long infested our nation.
What a poor idea. Nadelstern is, in essence, advocating for all schools to be reduced to the lowest common denominator. With a child in Hunter High School, her hard work has been rewarded with a first class education. She attended a struggling elementary school where the predominance of the kids were minority. She worked. She got into a good middle school. She got into Hunter.
THe answer is complicated. As someone who lives in Washington Heights, I see the kids out at all times of the night, parents who don't care, the loud music, and kids who are programmed to fail. It's a harsh reality. How does a lottery fix that. It penalizes our family, our chlld who sacrificed and worked hard. We need to be creating an environment where families are taught and encouraged to take their kids education seriously.
THe answer is complicated. As someone who lives in Washington Heights, I see the kids out at all times of the night, parents who don't care, the loud music, and kids who are programmed to fail. It's a harsh reality. How does a lottery fix that. It penalizes our family, our chlld who sacrificed and worked hard. We need to be creating an environment where families are taught and encouraged to take their kids education seriously.
70
How about all schools being equally high quality? Integrated schools with equally high quality resources resources and teachers.
That should be the goal.
That should be the goal.
It seems that the NY Times Editorial Board can write only editorials that attack the New York City school system. I will support this latest proposal to unfavor the wealthy if the members of the NY Times editorial board propose that NYC follow the policy of Finland to eliminate private schools--you know the schools the members of the board send their children and grandchildren to, which are segregated racially and socio-economically--so that ALL children who reside in NYC are part of the open lottery system. The increase in those wealthy children, who are mostly white, will increase integration in the NYC schools. By the way, the policy of the Obama administration and John King, Andrew Cuomo, Michael Bloomberg, and Merryl Tisch to increase charter schools--which increased segregation instead of supporting magnet schools which increase integration--also must take credit for increased segregation. Lastly, the use of standardized tests for admission to many NYC schools needs to be eliminated as they correlate only to family income which also winds up corresponding to race. The Bloomberg administration increased the use of these tests for admission to gifted programs thereby reducing their diversity. We have all the so-called reformers (that the NY Times has faithfully supported) to thank for the decline in integration.
4
Agreed but will add that no need to forcibly close the private schools - just restrict access to the high quality middle and high schools to children in the public school system. It is ridiculous that wealthy families whose children attended K-8 private schools get free admission to Bronx Science while children in the Bronx are shut out. I am not advocating a lowering of standards or a lottery which would wreck high quality schools, only that children in public schools be identified and prepared for these schools instead of giving these spots to private school students.
Standardized test scores correlate to knowledge and academic success. Those attributes correlate to family income. Do you see the difference? The test results aren't identifying middle class children who are academic high achievers while failing to find academic high achievers who are living in poverty. It is practically impossible to be a high-scoring student when you are raised in generational poverty surrounded by other families in the same boat.
The solution is to reduce poverty and integrate poor families into middle class neighborhoods. Outlawing private schools would be a big help too.
The solution is to reduce poverty and integrate poor families into middle class neighborhoods. Outlawing private schools would be a big help too.
I thought it was the mere rule that only is applied in China where students from low-income family suffer from low-quality education and thus the low mobility of different classes. It would be a great example for the Chinese government to follow if the counterpart in NYC can be addressed well.
Segregation in schools is celarly a loathsome problem. But, (there's always a but) as a parent, I want my child to be in a classroom with other kids who are equally prepared to learn... to the point where we actually moved a few blocks so that our child could attend a public school with much higher test scores than the one we were otherwise assigned. His new school gave each child a reading test the summer before they entered Kindergarten. Whether as a result, or not, I can't say which... when the school posted the classroom assignements on the wall, for all to see (including a single letter connoting each child's race), there were literally two classrooms that were practically entirely white with one or two exceptions and two classrooms that were entirely hispanic with only one or two exceptions. I literally almost threw up. In Kindergarten, really??? Well, this is the choice we made.... but I never envisioned it would be this dramatic, this early. Afterwards the kids that have the benefit of being in the reading class are streamlined into the "gifted" program... It's definetly not what I want for my mixed race "gifted" child. But I also don't want the alternative where a classroom teacher has to focus on those student's who haven't mastered the basics.
Random assignments to schools is not a respectful solution when there are real learning and preparedness differences, but surely there must be a way to counter some of the unnecessary discrimination.
Random assignments to schools is not a respectful solution when there are real learning and preparedness differences, but surely there must be a way to counter some of the unnecessary discrimination.
9
Jason - "I want my child to be in a classroom with other kids who are equally prepared to learn... "
What you want and the logistics of getting to that point can and will be described as both segregation and discrimination. The meanings of those words changing with user.
What you want and the logistics of getting to that point can and will be described as both segregation and discrimination. The meanings of those words changing with user.
2
" surely there must be a way to counter some of the unnecessary discrimination"
When groups have a culture that values sports and hip hop music more than education it is virtually impossible to make them learn. As the old saying goes, "you can lead a horse the water (education) but you can not make it drink (learn) unless it wants to.
When groups have a culture that values sports and hip hop music more than education it is virtually impossible to make them learn. As the old saying goes, "you can lead a horse the water (education) but you can not make it drink (learn) unless it wants to.
3
As the New York Time frequently points out, whites are shrinking as a percent of the population. White students are already a minority in our most populous states—California and Texas. They make up only 24.1% of California K-12 students and only 31% of Texas K-12 students. This make school integration difficult to achieve because there are no longer enough white students to go around. If black and Hispanic students can only learn when seated next to blue-eyed blondes, we had better change our immigration quotas. Otherwise, we should focus on making mostly black and mostly Hispanic schools as good as mostly white schools.
38
Yes, there is something inherently racist in the assumption that black or brown children can't learn unless they are seated next to white children (no such claim is made for Asian students, who, comprise 50% of the medical students where I teach). It's not the child next to you that matters, it is: (a) the teachers' competence, (b) the parents' attitudes, and (c) the child's internalized standards of conduct (classroom decorum).
24
One reason so many in NYC’s most impoverished neighborhoods appear to be among the strongest supporters of charters is that they give children SOME chance of end-running the limitations of their own economic circumstances. Up to the limits of physical capacity to accept students, charters ARE helping those parents do end-runs around an entrenched system so resistant to change.
The question of “choice” doesn’t answer the challenge. The editors apparently want a systemic solution that looks beyond boiler-plate admission criteria to find the exceptional child who hasn’t demonstrated distinction by standard criteria. Yet that assumes that a significant number of our children ARE exceptional who don’t. But, surely, application of unlimited resources to that creative discovery would uncover a few more – yet wouldn’t the consumption of such resources to find those few more rob Peter to pay Paul and affect the quality of the education itself? For everyone?
NYC, like America, isn’t going to solve the problem of sub-standard quality and effectiveness of education in SOME of our communities and school districts until we stop basing public school funding largely on where a child lives. We need to establish acceptable minimum standards of performance for schools, and the feds need to provide additional direct funding to bringing the sub-standard up to standard.
“Fair” is in the eye of the beholder. But making solid citizens of ALL our children is our COLLECTIVE responsibility.
The question of “choice” doesn’t answer the challenge. The editors apparently want a systemic solution that looks beyond boiler-plate admission criteria to find the exceptional child who hasn’t demonstrated distinction by standard criteria. Yet that assumes that a significant number of our children ARE exceptional who don’t. But, surely, application of unlimited resources to that creative discovery would uncover a few more – yet wouldn’t the consumption of such resources to find those few more rob Peter to pay Paul and affect the quality of the education itself? For everyone?
NYC, like America, isn’t going to solve the problem of sub-standard quality and effectiveness of education in SOME of our communities and school districts until we stop basing public school funding largely on where a child lives. We need to establish acceptable minimum standards of performance for schools, and the feds need to provide additional direct funding to bringing the sub-standard up to standard.
“Fair” is in the eye of the beholder. But making solid citizens of ALL our children is our COLLECTIVE responsibility.
6
Living in Atlanta and coming from Detroit, I have never understood how people who live in the North can be so critical of segregation in the South when they live in such a glass house with regards to neighborhoods and schools in their own universe. Atlanta is full of transplant from the Northeast. They take all the good jobs, spend all their time calling the natives racists, build exclusive new neighborhoods, then stick their kids in private schools that cost as much as an expensive university. That's why they are so pro-immigration, btw. Immigration is a way to fill their schools with 'diversity,' while also keeping African American enrollments to 10%, if even that. Immigrants actually are preferred. Without immigrants, they would no doubt have segregated all-white schools. Then, sitting there in white and/or 'diverse' private schools that costs tens of thousands a year, they have the gall to call others racists and xenophobes. That's what I call nervy.
7
Economic inequality drives inequality: in jobs, housing, transportation and schools. Fact. Inequality means less funding for schools, fewer quality teachers (because pay is low), and thus, less opportunity for children. There is no magic wand. After decades of neglect of reality, who can now complain that some children are receive less than wealthy counterparts? Wealthier parents can afford tutors, dance lessons, and summer camp, while working parents cannot. Look to other nations and see what works: longer school days, school over the summer, school health clinics, recruitment of great teachers, small charter schools. Innovations are needed to help respond to the realities of working parents. The dialogue needs to change, but so does the funding.
3
The answer is obvious if as unachievable as these other "solutions" which is to built the best schools with the best facilities in these depressed neighborhoods and staff them with the best teachers.
Since that is NOT going to happen the only more realistic hope is a new model to achieve some of those results in these neighborhoods based on using advanced technology to bring high quality talent electronically into these classrooms, give incentives to successful companies in the city and beyond each to adopt one of these schools providing financial support, and and sending in the best and brightest to work with students, and also the city providing these kids the best possible computers and the instruction to make good use of them.
This is not a magical solution but more useful and realistic than the others which require a socio-economic "revolution" that will not happen. .
Since that is NOT going to happen the only more realistic hope is a new model to achieve some of those results in these neighborhoods based on using advanced technology to bring high quality talent electronically into these classrooms, give incentives to successful companies in the city and beyond each to adopt one of these schools providing financial support, and and sending in the best and brightest to work with students, and also the city providing these kids the best possible computers and the instruction to make good use of them.
This is not a magical solution but more useful and realistic than the others which require a socio-economic "revolution" that will not happen. .
1
There is a public school less than a mile from the White House but no president, with school-age children has sent their children there—they’ve all chosen private schools.
Imagine what would have happened to that elementary and nearby high school if President Carter had chosen them in 1976; followed by the children of Clinton, Bush II and Obama.
With maximum security, they would have been the safest schools in the world; the curriculum enriched and the DC Board of Education would have selected the best teachers to serve there. Parents of other Washington officials would have fought to send their children there. Imagine the bi=partisan collegiality growing out of PTA meetings.
By the time President Obama arrived in DC, thirty years later, those schools would have been the top schools in the country. They would need a lottery to determine admission. The spill over into other nearby schools would have eventually affected the entire DC public school system; integrating them by race, class and political party; ending each year with a huge budget surplus without a law having been passed or a protest mounted.
Once it was shown that with the right resources and the right student mix worked, the DC public schools would have been a model for the rest of the world; but, the most powerful men in the world chose a private education for their children.
Why do we expect people with less power, money and influence to not follow the path of he rich and powerful?
Imagine what would have happened to that elementary and nearby high school if President Carter had chosen them in 1976; followed by the children of Clinton, Bush II and Obama.
With maximum security, they would have been the safest schools in the world; the curriculum enriched and the DC Board of Education would have selected the best teachers to serve there. Parents of other Washington officials would have fought to send their children there. Imagine the bi=partisan collegiality growing out of PTA meetings.
By the time President Obama arrived in DC, thirty years later, those schools would have been the top schools in the country. They would need a lottery to determine admission. The spill over into other nearby schools would have eventually affected the entire DC public school system; integrating them by race, class and political party; ending each year with a huge budget surplus without a law having been passed or a protest mounted.
Once it was shown that with the right resources and the right student mix worked, the DC public schools would have been a model for the rest of the world; but, the most powerful men in the world chose a private education for their children.
Why do we expect people with less power, money and influence to not follow the path of he rich and powerful?
13
Thank god they had the good sense NOT to use their children as pawns.
President Carter DID send his daughter to DC public schools.
I am a progressive libertarian but I have to side a bit with the conservatives here.
Your editorial does not mention one word re the responsibility of the parent.
IMO, that is the most crucial thing here not integration.
Don't get me wrong, if we can come up with non invasive ways of integrating schools that is fine.
However, concentrate on educating the parents in these poorer districts on the extreme urgency of taking parts in their kids education.
Your editorial does not mention one word re the responsibility of the parent.
IMO, that is the most crucial thing here not integration.
Don't get me wrong, if we can come up with non invasive ways of integrating schools that is fine.
However, concentrate on educating the parents in these poorer districts on the extreme urgency of taking parts in their kids education.
24
Thirty years ago we decided to send our daughter to public rather than private schools. We looked around and discovered that in District 2 in Manhattan, East Harlem, Deborah Myer had pioneered several schools that were fully integrated, innovative in their approach to education and skillfully used the talents and resources of middle class parents, most of whom were white to augment the flagging resources of these public schools.
Central Park East was a third black, a third white and a third latino. Most, though not all of the black and Latino students came from in district and most of the white students were enrolled from out of district. The teaching staff was less diverse, but all seemed committed to the dual mission of having an educationally sound school that was also integrated.
CPE was far from perfect, but my daughter got a solid education from K through 6th grade and looks back fondly on that part of her New York experience. But Myer's efforts demonstrated that school quality and diversity were not mutually exclusive and that maintaining these balances required a commitment from staff, parents and students.
It also required a commitment from what was then the Central Board of Education and there is where that story ended. The educational powers were happy to let gentrification, not commitment to equality determine the racial composition of our schools and today we see those results. We need a lot more Deborah Myers to turn that around. Hear that Mr. Mayor?
Central Park East was a third black, a third white and a third latino. Most, though not all of the black and Latino students came from in district and most of the white students were enrolled from out of district. The teaching staff was less diverse, but all seemed committed to the dual mission of having an educationally sound school that was also integrated.
CPE was far from perfect, but my daughter got a solid education from K through 6th grade and looks back fondly on that part of her New York experience. But Myer's efforts demonstrated that school quality and diversity were not mutually exclusive and that maintaining these balances required a commitment from staff, parents and students.
It also required a commitment from what was then the Central Board of Education and there is where that story ended. The educational powers were happy to let gentrification, not commitment to equality determine the racial composition of our schools and today we see those results. We need a lot more Deborah Myers to turn that around. Hear that Mr. Mayor?
4
I work in the NYC public school system and these are my observations. Schools don't "fail" because the teaching, administration, etc. is substandard. They fail because the students are not prepared to be educated. The students are not prepared to be educated because of numerous issues going on in their home life. The fact that their families are poor and struggling is the main issue. School staff spend an extraordinary amount of time dealing with the crises in their students lives. Students are not able to do their schoolwork because they are busy helping their parents with childcare, housework, or working themselves so that the family can make enough money to survive. In my personal observation, a school works best when the ratio of poor students to middle class students is about 1:4. Then the school is able to use its resources to support all of the kids who need help. Schools seem to reach a tipping point when there are too many needy students for one school to support effectively. This seems to me to be the state of affairs in the majority of NYC schools. I don't think school choice, vouchers, charters, teacher training, etc. will ever work. Unless our society is willing too throw enormous amounts of money at the school system to insure that schools can make up for the deficiencies of an inequitable economic system this will not change. Only a comparatively few students can rise above the challenges of poverty.
30
"Unless our society is willing too throw enormous amounts of money at the school system to insure that schools can make up for the deficiencies of an inequitable economic system this will not change."
Here in NJ, special state funding allows poor, inner-city schools to spend as much per pupil as the most affluent suburbs. Despite this however, these school still have the lowest test scores and graduation rates in the state.
Here in NJ, special state funding allows poor, inner-city schools to spend as much per pupil as the most affluent suburbs. Despite this however, these school still have the lowest test scores and graduation rates in the state.
6
There is a school in Chinatown where 100% of the children are on Free Lunch yet more than 3/4 receive top scores in the state exams - even the English test, despite English not being their first language.
MY children go to a NYC public school where 40% of the kids are on Free Lunch, so it's almost 50-50 in demographics. Being on the PTA, I had access to state tests results by demographic and can tell you that the non-poor kids score much better on the state tests than the poor ones. NO ONE is lifting anybody up! This happens at home, period the end.
MY children go to a NYC public school where 40% of the kids are on Free Lunch, so it's almost 50-50 in demographics. Being on the PTA, I had access to state tests results by demographic and can tell you that the non-poor kids score much better on the state tests than the poor ones. NO ONE is lifting anybody up! This happens at home, period the end.
7
Thank you for your comments Jennifer-- your students are lucky to have you!
Confronting segregation in schools is just pulling on one piece of a Gordian knot as it is reflection of deeper problems. More support systems will be needed in some schools due to the socio-economic issues in the neighborhoods, but the schools cannot be expected to 'fix'' the deeper problems in our society. Providing a safe environment is a fundamental requirement, so addressing violence in the neighborhood is a priority. Racial segregation is decreasing across the country but less slowly in the Midwest and Northeast, while residential segregation by income is increasing across the country. In some areas like NYC blacks are still being left out, as the Rust Belt has the most heavily segregated cities in the country.
Rather than creating another prescription of government services it would be best to start with what the people in the neighborhoods and schools say that they need. Over the decades there have been a large number of studies of varying quality on what works and what doesn’t, so that can serve as a suite of options to consider.
Rather than creating another prescription of government services it would be best to start with what the people in the neighborhoods and schools say that they need. Over the decades there have been a large number of studies of varying quality on what works and what doesn’t, so that can serve as a suite of options to consider.
2
New York State recently eliminated one of two required teacher licensing examinations, reportedly because too many prospective teachers were failing the exam. I prepared for that exam last year, but did not take it because I decided not to join TFA, a nation-wide program for which I'd been accepted.
The exam is not difficult. Any college graduate should easily pass it. The fact that so many are failing is disturbing.The fact that those very same people– the ones who could not pass a moderately difficult licensing exam –will now be teaching in New York City classrooms is even more troubling. Where do you think those - possibly unqualified - people will find jobs? Hint –it's not going to be at Stuyvesant or the Bronx High School of Science.
If we dumb down the teacher licensing exam, because we have dumbed down the schools to the point that nobody passes the exam, then we simply perpetuate the cycle of failure. Poorly prepared teachers will end up in lowest tier schools, and the children in their classrooms will not qualify for academically competitive high schools or colleges.The dumbing down needs to end.
And yes, it was minority candidates who were failing the exam in large numbers. NYS's response –to drop the exam -evades rather than solves the problem. So does the New York Times' suggestion that students at selective schools be chosen by lottery. The answer is to improve K-8, including by outreach to parents and incentivizing top teachers to teach in poor neighborhoods.
The exam is not difficult. Any college graduate should easily pass it. The fact that so many are failing is disturbing.The fact that those very same people– the ones who could not pass a moderately difficult licensing exam –will now be teaching in New York City classrooms is even more troubling. Where do you think those - possibly unqualified - people will find jobs? Hint –it's not going to be at Stuyvesant or the Bronx High School of Science.
If we dumb down the teacher licensing exam, because we have dumbed down the schools to the point that nobody passes the exam, then we simply perpetuate the cycle of failure. Poorly prepared teachers will end up in lowest tier schools, and the children in their classrooms will not qualify for academically competitive high schools or colleges.The dumbing down needs to end.
And yes, it was minority candidates who were failing the exam in large numbers. NYS's response –to drop the exam -evades rather than solves the problem. So does the New York Times' suggestion that students at selective schools be chosen by lottery. The answer is to improve K-8, including by outreach to parents and incentivizing top teachers to teach in poor neighborhoods.
53
This is the same approach taken for firemen and police; heck, the IRS exam was dumbed down in 1998; now the agents are a joke. No knowledge of accounting, no sense of the changing regulations; frankly, I think some cannot really write or read well. It is a way of increasing 'diversity' at the expense of ability to perform one's job/service to those that depend on them.
It is an outrage to create tests to increase the number of those that pass so that you can 'select' who you really want. Affirmative action has been one of the worst ideas perpetrated on the US; no other country has anything like it on the planet.
It is an outrage to create tests to increase the number of those that pass so that you can 'select' who you really want. Affirmative action has been one of the worst ideas perpetrated on the US; no other country has anything like it on the planet.
The "answer" is to get academically talented people interested in teaching, and to stop the bashing which Bloomberg turned into a Sadistic fetish. I pity young teachers now, struggling to meet impossible demands by bone-headed administrators who can't teach their way out of a brown paper bag. "Lesson plans" are not TEACHING. Other societies respect teaching and learning. America does not. Obviously.
There's nothing wrong about the choice system for admissions to high schools, yet the same could work only when the quality and performance of teachers, and the learning outcomes of the children too are regularly monitored and accounted for. This would not only enable the children to be better prepared for the higher classes but neutralise the segregation bias also.
The problems are far more complicated than you suggest. Schools in low-income neighborhoods have difficulty attracting and retaining teachers; holding those teachers and schools more accountable for student performance is an admirable goal but in practice drives good teachers out of challenging schools and causes challenging schools to try and game the accountability system by, for example, focussing on strictly on test scores or AP course offerings. Furthermore, as Brown v. Board of Ed declared almost 75 years ago, "separate is inherently unequal," and no accountability measure will change the fact that our schools are deeply segregated.
2
UCLA Civil Rights Project has identified our neighbor, Connecticut, as having some promising practices through their magnet programs. Choice, as you write, does have something to do with resegregation, so does housing, so does persistent racism and our collective letting go of any commitment to desegregation. This didn't happen over night and it's not unique to NYC. As a country, we have steadily retreated from the promises of Brown--as we have the Voting Rights Act---and other remedies that sought to support a more inclusive and just democracy as well as create equal opportunities and protect essential rights. Diversity is not just an ethical value or a principle of social justice....kids who attend diverse schools (all of them, not just black and brown kids but white kids, too) benefit greatly---they tend to choose lives rich with diversity. They test better. They are more ethical. Perpetuating this system of living in bubbles has gotten us nowhere healthy as a society. It's made our democracy more vulnerable, decreased a sense of civic mutuality among us, and made it harder for us to imagine each others' lives and life opportunities. We can't afford for another generation to grow up separated by identity.
33
You err in comparing the current situation to the one extant in the time of Brown v Board. During those Jim Crow years, students were segregated due to statute. The famous Plessy decision of "separate but equal" was found to violate the 14th Amendment.
As such, the kinds of statutory segregation to which you refer have been eliminated for several generals. Instead, segregation now is the result of where people choose (or can afford) to live. Because of Bloomberg's policies, however, high school students may attend any school in the city. But elementary and middle school students generally still attend schools near where they reside.
In other parts of the country, this is a greater issue since school funding is often tied to property taxes. And white flight in the 1960's resulted in many whites living in the suburbs with a separate tax base from the minorities left in the city.
This funding disparity is not the issue in New York City. Rather, the issue is that choice is mainly focused on high school students and should be expanded to younger children - while preserving the local option as a choice for those who want to keep their children close.
As such, the kinds of statutory segregation to which you refer have been eliminated for several generals. Instead, segregation now is the result of where people choose (or can afford) to live. Because of Bloomberg's policies, however, high school students may attend any school in the city. But elementary and middle school students generally still attend schools near where they reside.
In other parts of the country, this is a greater issue since school funding is often tied to property taxes. And white flight in the 1960's resulted in many whites living in the suburbs with a separate tax base from the minorities left in the city.
This funding disparity is not the issue in New York City. Rather, the issue is that choice is mainly focused on high school students and should be expanded to younger children - while preserving the local option as a choice for those who want to keep their children close.
Everyone should be free to choose his/her identity.
1
Performance based pay for teachers.
The mayor is surely correct when he says that it is not possible to change housing patterns. So, let's encourage the best teachers to work in the lower performing schools.
Grade schools according to performance and offer significantly higher pay to those teachers who would consider working in schools with a low grade.
The mayor is surely correct when he says that it is not possible to change housing patterns. So, let's encourage the best teachers to work in the lower performing schools.
Grade schools according to performance and offer significantly higher pay to those teachers who would consider working in schools with a low grade.
4
Performance-base pay is asking for trouble, since teacher performance is somewhat subjective and highly susceptible to fraud. Some teachers will no doubt find "creative" ways to increase test scores and records to qualify for this performance-based pay.
1
@Mike,
You've hit on one of the factors that seem to be overlooked here: experience of the teachers.
The teachers' contract essentially gives experienced teachers the right to stay in good schools. They never have to deal with struggling kids unless they want to. As a result, the struggling schools have the youngest teachers with almost no classroom experience and no master teachers who can guide them.
Do you want a doctor fresh out of medical school (before residency) doing brain surgery on you?
I think that the teachers should be required to work a certain number of years in struggling schools in order to gain and keep tenure and that tenure should take longer to achieve. But that's not going to happen since teachers and their families seem to be a large voting block in NYC. Candidates for mayor never want to get on their bad side and certainly don't want a strike.
You've hit on one of the factors that seem to be overlooked here: experience of the teachers.
The teachers' contract essentially gives experienced teachers the right to stay in good schools. They never have to deal with struggling kids unless they want to. As a result, the struggling schools have the youngest teachers with almost no classroom experience and no master teachers who can guide them.
Do you want a doctor fresh out of medical school (before residency) doing brain surgery on you?
I think that the teachers should be required to work a certain number of years in struggling schools in order to gain and keep tenure and that tenure should take longer to achieve. But that's not going to happen since teachers and their families seem to be a large voting block in NYC. Candidates for mayor never want to get on their bad side and certainly don't want a strike.
1
"The choice system was constructed not for the poor, but to keep white middle-class families invested in the public schools." Wrong. Competition among neighborhood schools is exactly what is needed. Who are your advisors, the teachers' union?
17
This divided school system is deeply rooted in our socio-economic and politically history which has obvious inequities linked to slavery & racism. America was able to partially and inconsistently confront and solve these issues; therefore, today we see that poverty, ghettos, gang affiliation, broken homes, serious nutritional issuess, and academic problems persist like a plague that was never fully eradicated.
For once and for all America must stop with blaming and pointing fingers to confronting these issues at their core. We once had a War on Poverty and a Dream that America would deliver its promises to every child despite our historical failures that essentially abandoned or covered up the problems associated with socio-economic investment. We once had the ethical and political willingness no matter the size & scope. However, we should recall that willingness to upend a deeply divided population and ensure opportunity as well as equality was driven by the intelligence, morality, outrage, awareness, and courage of individuals who were not willing to accept the status quo nor the excuses that scapegoated the problems.
This issue of a segregated and fixed school system is shameful & contradicts our creed that posits that we are all created equal and will not tolerate racism in any way shape or form.
Defacto or dejure; let's deal with it.
For once and for all America must stop with blaming and pointing fingers to confronting these issues at their core. We once had a War on Poverty and a Dream that America would deliver its promises to every child despite our historical failures that essentially abandoned or covered up the problems associated with socio-economic investment. We once had the ethical and political willingness no matter the size & scope. However, we should recall that willingness to upend a deeply divided population and ensure opportunity as well as equality was driven by the intelligence, morality, outrage, awareness, and courage of individuals who were not willing to accept the status quo nor the excuses that scapegoated the problems.
This issue of a segregated and fixed school system is shameful & contradicts our creed that posits that we are all created equal and will not tolerate racism in any way shape or form.
Defacto or dejure; let's deal with it.
30
It would be interesting to know what schools the authors attended, whether or not they have children, and where those children attend school. I think this information should be required of people who write about education.
76
And people who write about astronomy have to have visited space? Or folks who write about medical breakthroughs have to be doctors? Or people who write about food supplies in the world's nations have to be farmers?
One of the best teachers I had (in graduate school) had never had a child. And his writings on education are today still required reading in his discipline.
One of the best teachers I had (in graduate school) had never had a child. And his writings on education are today still required reading in his discipline.
I think you're extrapolating. You might want to reread my comment.
2
But Rea, yes, actually, I believe people who publish opinion pieces about medical breakthroughs ought to have real practical experience with those breakthroughs, as either dr. or patient, to address one of your analogies.
Educational theory is all well and good until you have actual children who you are seeking to educate. There is nothing like actual practical experience navigating the NYC public school system for your child(ren), your students, or yourself to educate you about the complicated problems of that system. There are no books, newspapers or teachers who can impart this information. And this is why I think it's relevant to know what the personal educational experiences of people who publish opinions about education are. Frankly, if you haven't gone through it as a parent, student, or teacher I believe your opinion is less informed. Can you disagree with this? Jonathan Kozol was himself a public school teacher at one point.
Educational theory is all well and good until you have actual children who you are seeking to educate. There is nothing like actual practical experience navigating the NYC public school system for your child(ren), your students, or yourself to educate you about the complicated problems of that system. There are no books, newspapers or teachers who can impart this information. And this is why I think it's relevant to know what the personal educational experiences of people who publish opinions about education are. Frankly, if you haven't gone through it as a parent, student, or teacher I believe your opinion is less informed. Can you disagree with this? Jonathan Kozol was himself a public school teacher at one point.
Neither of my parents graduated from high school. My father did not complete the eighth grade. I earned good grades and tested well and, as a result, was able to move through New York City public schools in elite academic programs. I went on to college, graduate school and law school.
Had those selective schools not been available, I would have not succeeded. The New York City public school system was my road to a middle-class life, but that road was available, only because a path had been created for students who were prepared..
I attended CUNY before open enrollment, qualifying for one of the top four-year colleges. Open enrollment nearly ruined CUNY. Admitting unprepared students resulted in the dumbing down of curriculum and a loss of credibility by CUNY with top graduate and professional schools. The present system, which allows students to attend community college if they do not qualify for a four-year school, has restored integrity and credibility of the four-year colleges by restoring entrance requirements.
I agree that the NYC schools need to be desegregated and that poor kids should have the same opportunities as those from middle class and affluent families. Those opportunities must be created at the elementary school level, by improving education in K-8 schools, including via intensive remediation. Letting anybody go anywhere merely masks the underlying socio-economic problem, and shuts down the very path out of poverty that I and so many others followed.
Had those selective schools not been available, I would have not succeeded. The New York City public school system was my road to a middle-class life, but that road was available, only because a path had been created for students who were prepared..
I attended CUNY before open enrollment, qualifying for one of the top four-year colleges. Open enrollment nearly ruined CUNY. Admitting unprepared students resulted in the dumbing down of curriculum and a loss of credibility by CUNY with top graduate and professional schools. The present system, which allows students to attend community college if they do not qualify for a four-year school, has restored integrity and credibility of the four-year colleges by restoring entrance requirements.
I agree that the NYC schools need to be desegregated and that poor kids should have the same opportunities as those from middle class and affluent families. Those opportunities must be created at the elementary school level, by improving education in K-8 schools, including via intensive remediation. Letting anybody go anywhere merely masks the underlying socio-economic problem, and shuts down the very path out of poverty that I and so many others followed.
67
I agree with you - you must start at the root level to improve education and desegregate, not blithely open some of the country's best high schools to a random selection of children who are not prepared to perform at that level. They provide a very significant service to those who are prepared, and represent high achievement: how does changing that improve education for the broader NYC school system?
NYC can use the magnet approach to make schools in "bad" areas very desirable. Invest heavily in elementary and middle schools to lay the groundwork. It is necessary to make that work to enhance opportunities for students.
NYC can use the magnet approach to make schools in "bad" areas very desirable. Invest heavily in elementary and middle schools to lay the groundwork. It is necessary to make that work to enhance opportunities for students.
Except there aren't enough white kids to spread around the system.
Hand wringing does not solve a problem that's presented with no data. What are current ethnic percentages in the school system; how are those percentages changing; what would be the impact of mandated ethnic parity in each school within some reasonable band; how likely are significant changes to induce "white flight;" what is the geographic dispersal of each affected group nd what would be the prospects of transporting them into the desired ethnic pot (especially given NYC's abject failure to provide a reasonable public transportation system)? Wishing don't make it so.
2
JPE, the current data of New York State's racial breakdown in the schools is on the Department of Education's website. Whites are in the minority at the moment. Didn't see a breakdown by area, but didn't spend much time on it.
Are you seriously faulting a choice program for high school admission when by your own analysis so many poor and minority students haven't had much-needed preparation? Shouldn't the focus be on education in elementary and middle school? Kids don't wash out at 8th grade; they're left behind years before.
100
The brain develops massively in the first few years of life. If ever there is a time to invest in education and health it is in the first few years of life. What would really improve education outcomes?
1. Birth control options so that girls and women may have children when they are really and truly able to take on the tremendous demands of parenting.
2. Healthy diet before and across pregnancy.
3. Child development courses for everyone in high school. Parenting courses: what does a child need to be their best? What does a child cost?
4. Affordable enriched environment daycare and after school care.
Invest in these efforts and schools will be filled with smarter better behaved students, happier teachers, less racial divides.
1. Birth control options so that girls and women may have children when they are really and truly able to take on the tremendous demands of parenting.
2. Healthy diet before and across pregnancy.
3. Child development courses for everyone in high school. Parenting courses: what does a child need to be their best? What does a child cost?
4. Affordable enriched environment daycare and after school care.
Invest in these efforts and schools will be filled with smarter better behaved students, happier teachers, less racial divides.
18
...1. Birth control options so that girls and women may have children when they are really and truly able to take on the tremendous demands of parenting.
2. Healthy diet before and across pregnancy.
3. Child development courses for everyone in high school. Parenting courses: what does a child need to be their best? What does a child cost?
4. Affordable enriched environment daycare and after school care.
----------- don't have kids unless YOU can afford them . . .
2. Healthy diet before and across pregnancy.
3. Child development courses for everyone in high school. Parenting courses: what does a child need to be their best? What does a child cost?
4. Affordable enriched environment daycare and after school care.
----------- don't have kids unless YOU can afford them . . .
3
The good schools all have students that
Show up every day
Do their homework every night
Never miss a test, an assignment or a project
Ask for help when they need it
Students create study groups on their own to do the work
A woman who did my nails each week told me that her daycare in queens was open 24 hours to support worker schedules and that there were tons of after school tutoring and enrichment programs to fill the gaps for working parents. She worked 7 days a week as did her husband, and she paid for all of these programs...she did it because that is the norm in her community, and most understood that this is the proven path to the middle class. She did all of this while sending money home to her parents in Korea. I am sure her children will be prepared for college.
There is no substitute for working hard everyday and delaying gratification.
Show up every day
Do their homework every night
Never miss a test, an assignment or a project
Ask for help when they need it
Students create study groups on their own to do the work
A woman who did my nails each week told me that her daycare in queens was open 24 hours to support worker schedules and that there were tons of after school tutoring and enrichment programs to fill the gaps for working parents. She worked 7 days a week as did her husband, and she paid for all of these programs...she did it because that is the norm in her community, and most understood that this is the proven path to the middle class. She did all of this while sending money home to her parents in Korea. I am sure her children will be prepared for college.
There is no substitute for working hard everyday and delaying gratification.
96
Just a bit of advise: spend a little time researching before making such statement. I used to think this as well until I actually started working in the schools and had a daughter. So many factors need to be taken into account.
What the editorial board is suggesting, would be, to allow any student to apply to any school regardless of their educational background. Allowing students with low grades and a lacking prior education is madness. Schools place these restrictions so that they can cater to a certain level of student, not race.
If a student, regardless of minority, is ill educated they should not be given a free pass to attend a school that works at level they are incapable to achieve in. Schools work at certain levels to their pupils, and if someone can't keep up they need to be doing something else.
The lottery principle is just as insane, students should be based on merit not luck. If you do that you may as well just invite the stupid kids to fight against the smart ones and see who wins.
Stop looking for racism when there isn't any. Fix the failing schools then complain. If it still doesn't improve just remember; Stupid is colour blind.
If a student, regardless of minority, is ill educated they should not be given a free pass to attend a school that works at level they are incapable to achieve in. Schools work at certain levels to their pupils, and if someone can't keep up they need to be doing something else.
The lottery principle is just as insane, students should be based on merit not luck. If you do that you may as well just invite the stupid kids to fight against the smart ones and see who wins.
Stop looking for racism when there isn't any. Fix the failing schools then complain. If it still doesn't improve just remember; Stupid is colour blind.
76
We read an article about an 8th grade girl last week that dreamed of being a divorce lawyer but had few quality high schools near where she lived and she wished she started trying harder earlier. As a result of location and effort...her future is at risk...she is 14 years old
We need a plan for kids exactly like her. Catch-up, focus and plan.
we need to spend more time on what to do to help them catch up and the answer might be extending high school by two years for those students.
They should also include more trade skills for high school learners, carpentry, plumbing, electricity are needed for skilled workers.
My kids come home from school every day, eat a snack and do their homework and then they make a plan to meet or prepare for the next day.
We spend dinner talking about what is needed or what is going on in the world or a specific assignment. That is what it takes to be prepared for college...every day
We need a plan for kids exactly like her. Catch-up, focus and plan.
we need to spend more time on what to do to help them catch up and the answer might be extending high school by two years for those students.
They should also include more trade skills for high school learners, carpentry, plumbing, electricity are needed for skilled workers.
My kids come home from school every day, eat a snack and do their homework and then they make a plan to meet or prepare for the next day.
We spend dinner talking about what is needed or what is going on in the world or a specific assignment. That is what it takes to be prepared for college...every day
12
If a tested school opens its doors to children who don't test well, or who are a couple of grade levels behind classmates in the subject being studied, who is going to benefit?
Fewer than 15% of kids in NYC schools are white. A similar small percentage are Asian. Scattering high performing kids from these groups throughout the school system is not going to raise the perfprmance kevels of their classmates.
What it will do is break up the clusters of high performing students that belong to these groups, and thereby make it harder to see gaps in performance by race or ethnic group.
Fewer than 15% of kids in NYC schools are white. A similar small percentage are Asian. Scattering high performing kids from these groups throughout the school system is not going to raise the perfprmance kevels of their classmates.
What it will do is break up the clusters of high performing students that belong to these groups, and thereby make it harder to see gaps in performance by race or ethnic group.
44
MOre to the point (as the parent of a high performing child), kids who attend specialty HSs will be dragged down, and kids who are unable to perform will still fail.
2
Data disproves that it's higher income parents only who prepare their children for the exams or portfolios needed to get into specialized high schools. Around half of Stuyvesant's students qualify for free lunch. Ditto for Bronx Sci or Brooklyn Tech. It's not money that's driving these immigrant families to push their children-- and when we are talking about NYC education it's nearly all immigrants-- so why can't we accept the data and then turn our attention to figuring out how to make elementary and middle schools in the Bronx great and stop it with the strawman?
114
bravo
Here's an idea. Properly fund and resource all schools.
44
K - funding is NOT the problem. Of course it's an issue across the Chicago area due to the fraud supported by the school board (google chicago school fraud).
1
"Mayor Bill de Blasio dodged by saying that the schools are a reflection of historical housing patterns, and, 'We cannot change the basic reality of housing in New York City.' "
That (housing patterns) was exactly the reason Detroit schools were ordered to implement a busing program - because of its housing patterns.
NYC Liberals (i.e.hypocrites) don't want to admit that the segregation of its public schools is allowing its liberal illusion of diversity to exist.
In the meantime folks like Krugman and Kristof will continue to point to the deplorables of flyover county while they (Krugman and Kristof) keep looking over their own shoulders.
The schools age demographics of NY City shows that about 300k students are white and roughly the same number are Black. About 150k white students go to private schools, primarily Catholic or Jewish. The remaining white students in the public schools system go to overwhelmingly white public schools (70% or more white).
George Wallace carried Michigan in the 1972 Democratic primary elections. He was an outspoken critic of busing for desegregation which Detroit was ordered to institute. Other Democrats were either silent or like McGovern supported the busing plan. How goes NY City on that issue?
How do you live with yourselves?
That (housing patterns) was exactly the reason Detroit schools were ordered to implement a busing program - because of its housing patterns.
NYC Liberals (i.e.hypocrites) don't want to admit that the segregation of its public schools is allowing its liberal illusion of diversity to exist.
In the meantime folks like Krugman and Kristof will continue to point to the deplorables of flyover county while they (Krugman and Kristof) keep looking over their own shoulders.
The schools age demographics of NY City shows that about 300k students are white and roughly the same number are Black. About 150k white students go to private schools, primarily Catholic or Jewish. The remaining white students in the public schools system go to overwhelmingly white public schools (70% or more white).
George Wallace carried Michigan in the 1972 Democratic primary elections. He was an outspoken critic of busing for desegregation which Detroit was ordered to institute. Other Democrats were either silent or like McGovern supported the busing plan. How goes NY City on that issue?
How do you live with yourselves?
8
"NYC Liberals (i.e.hypocrites) don't want to admit that the segregation of its public schools is allowing its liberal illusion of diversity to exist."
Your thesis ignores the fact that NYC Conservatives (BTW there are hypocrites in both groups), as well as those in between, also send their kids to those same schools. Yes, it's shocking to find out both Liberals and Conservatives allow their kids (whom are classmates and friends) to send their kids to the same schools while their parents sit back and "throw stones".
Your thesis ignores the fact that NYC Conservatives (BTW there are hypocrites in both groups), as well as those in between, also send their kids to those same schools. Yes, it's shocking to find out both Liberals and Conservatives allow their kids (whom are classmates and friends) to send their kids to the same schools while their parents sit back and "throw stones".
1
@Charles: I ignored nothing. NY City is touted as progressive thinking. And it's not the conservatives who are preaching to the deplorables. Is Chappaqua nearby?
1
A study should be undertaken to find out what all the bad schools have in common and what all the good schools have in common.
I'm sure the answer is in the mortar or the bricks.
I'm sure the answer is in the mortar or the bricks.
6
'' Created during the mayoralty of Michael Bloomberg, New York’s choice system frees eighth graders who once would have attended their neighborhood high schools to apply anywhere in the city. But many of the most desirable high schools seem to have washed their hands of all but the best-prepared students by basing admission on auditions, or scores on a one-day, high-stakes test, or top performance on statewide exams, or portfolios of middle school work. Others apply vague entrance criteria that leave a room for arbitrariness. ''
So what's the problem ? Switch it back to a cache area system .
This is the primary way that charter school ( privatization ) proponents use to under fund public schools and point fingers against the public system that it is not working
They choke that public system of better off students and\or funding.
So what's the problem ? Switch it back to a cache area system .
This is the primary way that charter school ( privatization ) proponents use to under fund public schools and point fingers against the public system that it is not working
They choke that public system of better off students and\or funding.
9
Profit is everything. Our public schools are merely collateral damage. Poorly educated kids are just a cost of doing business.
Efforts to retain the middle class in public schools are not the expense of the poor. Schools are best when all families are invested in them. This is precisely the lesson of desegregation.
The city must continue to engage and retain middle class students, else school segregation will increase.
The city must continue to engage and retain middle class students, else school segregation will increase.
29
The editors simply refuse to acknowledge the reality that education is a multi variable equation in which the three principle factors must be solved in order to arrive at a satisfactory outcome.
Schools and Teachers. The hard question here is whether or not these institutions and these people in the "minority" schools perform as competently as their counterparts in "white" school systems.
Families who value education. The hard question here is whether or not the parents of school age children nurture reading at an early age, insist that their children attend school, do their work and generally provide their children with behavioral examples conducive to learning and intellectual curiosity.
Children who actually go to school, behave in such a manner so the teacher can actually deliver a lesson, do their assigned work, and demonstrate a willingness to explore intellectual challenges.
Until all three components of the educational formula are addressed, by those involved directly in the process, nothing much is going to change in terms of outcomes. The editors can pontificate all they want on this subject, but they continue to play a one note song when it comes to race, the poor, and education.
Schools and Teachers. The hard question here is whether or not these institutions and these people in the "minority" schools perform as competently as their counterparts in "white" school systems.
Families who value education. The hard question here is whether or not the parents of school age children nurture reading at an early age, insist that their children attend school, do their work and generally provide their children with behavioral examples conducive to learning and intellectual curiosity.
Children who actually go to school, behave in such a manner so the teacher can actually deliver a lesson, do their assigned work, and demonstrate a willingness to explore intellectual challenges.
Until all three components of the educational formula are addressed, by those involved directly in the process, nothing much is going to change in terms of outcomes. The editors can pontificate all they want on this subject, but they continue to play a one note song when it comes to race, the poor, and education.
158
Until we stop blaming individuals caught up in a system that throws obstacles up in front of students, parents, and teachers at every opportunity, (so that corporations can take over the school system and suck tax money out of the government) and reorganize the system to make everyone's lives better, things will only get worse.
It is the political-economic system itself, that is constantly moving resources away from workers and their children and toward billionaires and their machinery that is the problem. And the editors that keep pushing this trickle down world view are part of the problem.
It is the political-economic system itself, that is constantly moving resources away from workers and their children and toward billionaires and their machinery that is the problem. And the editors that keep pushing this trickle down world view are part of the problem.
1
Billionaires can build their own schools for their kids, stuffed with Nobel laureates to teach them. Billionaires also do not need to be overeducated to make a living, they are already making it. Stop blaming them.
TDurk, the 1% don't want your children or mine educated, they want them indentured.
1
This is your problem: "By eighth grade, however, many low-income black and Hispanic children who have spent their early grades confined to failing schools — and passed through similarly poor middle schools — have already fallen too far behind in the competition for the high schools that could prepare them for college." Once again though the writers at NYT ignore the elephant in the room: the families. The school cannot completely compensate for families who, for whatever reason, can't and don't foster learning at home. By 8th grade many of these kids are so far behind that they would not be able to compete at a 'good' school. I'm not sure what the solution is, perhaps more intensive focus on what goes on at home?, but implying that middle and upper class parents are selfish for looking out of their kids and decrying every effort at reform as just another manifestation of that, which seems to be the sub or overt text to most of these articles, is pointless. Do the writers at the NYT do anything different with their kids?
159
I agree. And, a "good school" simply means that it attracts, or is fortunate to be in a neighborhood that has enough functioning families that teachers can do their job well, most students really do want to learn and perform at their best most of the time, and the school has the financial resources to serve all the students.
2
i would guess that the writers at the NYTimes are either childless (as all European leaders now are) or they send their kids to private school.
They send their kids to private schools
Desegregation is absolutely essential for many reasons, but it will not eliminate the 900 lb. gorilla in the room. Numerous studies (see http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/02/scienceshot-why-you-should-talk-y... for instance) have shown that by 18 months many children have already been family-selected for a second-tier future. This comes about from developmental deficiencies in language skills entirely dependent on the parents- not the schools. This suggests that the performance gap between successful and less successful students cannot be solved readily EVEN ONCE PRE-SCHOOL ROLLS AROUND. If we are seriously going to address low-performance, we need to consider family INTERVENTION of a very extreme nature starting from mid-pregnancy and going through 18- months of life. Are we willing or able to do this as a society?
53
You won't face where intervention is ultimately needed: at the level of inequitable family assignment. To carry your logic to its natural conclusion, all babies should be randomly re-assigned at birth to other parents. In this way, the advantages/disadvantages of having parents of better or lesser education, or white privilege or lack thereof, will be distributed evenly. Think it can't be done? A good socialist society like China already tells you when you can or cannot have babies. Surely De Blasio's socialist New York could work on its own plan to combat "family inequality."
6
More schools might include "how to be a responsible parent" in their curricula, but that sort of thing is usually shouted down by irresponsible parents (often armed with bibles.)
1
No, we are not willing to do that. But a good start would be to end the policy of paying teenage girls to have children out of wedlock.
How about fixing the schools that are failing to prepare these kids for a selective system before rushing to judgement about segregation. You're blaming people for trying to get their kids into a good school and ignoring the source of the problem.
34
"...before rushing to judgement about segregation."
Yes, what's the rush? We've only been dealing with this as a city and a nation for 60 years. What's a few more generations to decide if racial segregation is a good idea for American society?
Yes, what's the rush? We've only been dealing with this as a city and a nation for 60 years. What's a few more generations to decide if racial segregation is a good idea for American society?
The article suggests that school choice enforces school segregation because Black and Hispanic students aren't being prepared by their inadequate & segregated elementary and middle schools. The root problem, then, is the poor preparation that begins at an earlier age, not choice itself.
No one would suggest that UC Berkeley, Baruch College, University of Wisconsin, or any other excellent public college change to a lottery-based admission. Institutions that educate older students should not have to solve the problems created by elementary and middle schools alone.
No one would suggest that UC Berkeley, Baruch College, University of Wisconsin, or any other excellent public college change to a lottery-based admission. Institutions that educate older students should not have to solve the problems created by elementary and middle schools alone.
77
Please stop conflating low income black and Latino kids with "all black and Latino" children. The pathology these kids show involves the layering of class and color not the mere fact they are black or Latino.
The Times loves blaming de Blasio for the consequences of Bloomberg's legacy. Bloomberg's reorganizing schools under the business model with policies such as the principals choosing the staff with which they were comfortable, principals responsible for budgeting their staff, and reliance upon ever-rising performance goals for those principals to keep their positions only exacerbated the situation.
8
As often happens, the easy solution is wrong. You cannot take students who do not know how to read, add or subtract and put them into Stuyvesant. They will fail or alternately, the other students at Stuyvesant will sit bored as their teachers spend most of their time at remedial education.
Alternatively, city can use resources to tackle elementary schools, assuring students receive an education, rather than a pass towards graduation as the bureaucrats are vested in not failing students. There is plenty of talent in the Black Hispanic communities, but it can go nowhere due to the schools. If it is fixed, the segregation in the best high schools will be diminished and eventually disappear.
Alternatively, city can use resources to tackle elementary schools, assuring students receive an education, rather than a pass towards graduation as the bureaucrats are vested in not failing students. There is plenty of talent in the Black Hispanic communities, but it can go nowhere due to the schools. If it is fixed, the segregation in the best high schools will be diminished and eventually disappear.
59
again, you should have written, "low income black and hispanic communities." Not all black and hispanic people are economically disadvantaged.
Can we stop saying that the system traps kids? Parents trap kids. When, in a kindergarten class, only three parents out of twenty five show up for parent-teacher conferences, and only three parents respond to outreach, we can make certain predictions about the fate of the other twenty-two kids with a certain amount of accuracy. Yes, the system is completely messed up. However, parents are never accounted for in these discussions of what can make children succeed in our school system.
189
Kaladin
I agree totally. Parents are, and have always been, the primary educators of their children. That means getting them, and keeping them, ready and eager to learn, with respect for teachers, and their elders.
By the time young children begin school, many traits that promote learning, or not, are already in place. Parents must step up and keep up to insure the best outcomes for their children.
Can't keep blaming schools and teachers for all social ills and imbalances.
I agree totally. Parents are, and have always been, the primary educators of their children. That means getting them, and keeping them, ready and eager to learn, with respect for teachers, and their elders.
By the time young children begin school, many traits that promote learning, or not, are already in place. Parents must step up and keep up to insure the best outcomes for their children.
Can't keep blaming schools and teachers for all social ills and imbalances.
15
When parents accuse the teachers, threaten the teachers and also wash their hands of their responsibility for their children to have a work space at home, quiet and support for the value of education, then the schools are playing catch-up, a game they cannot win. I overheard a cashier at Staples on a Sunday morning saying, I am so tired. I needed to study but my mother had a party until 2 AM and when I asked her to turn down the music, she said, "it's my apartment. You don't have to live here.' This was an ambitious, motivated young woman who was not getting a chance in her very home. This scenario is not unique. How can schools fix that? The schools can provide opportunities but they cannot take the children home...and home is where many good intentions fall apart.
4
I agree. My parents were not high school graduates. My mother worked, commuting an hour each day to a job in Manhattan. My father worked 6 days a week. Nonetheless, my mother showed up at every single parent-teacher conference at the schools that my sister and I attended -- and we were not always attending the same school at the same time. My father was at every school performance in which we participated, every awards ceremony. We knew when we arrived home from school that, although my mother was still at work, we were expected to sit down and do our homework -- because the first question she'd ask when she got home was whether that homework was in progress or had been completed. We were sent to bed at 9 p.m.
Parent involvement is critical to a child's success. The City needs not merely to work on K-8, but to deal with problems in the neighborhoods that affect education, including parental participation.
Moreover, I see on p.1 of the website edition that there is a gang war in progress in NYC due to a breakup of the Bloods; the photo shows teenage girls displaying photos of a murdered friend, a gang member, as though he were a fallen hero. Who reinforces these horrible attitudes? We expect kids to learn, when parents don't give a hoot and the gods of choice for children are homicidal criminals? Intervention begins in those neighborhoods; not in kindergarten.
Parent involvement is critical to a child's success. The City needs not merely to work on K-8, but to deal with problems in the neighborhoods that affect education, including parental participation.
Moreover, I see on p.1 of the website edition that there is a gang war in progress in NYC due to a breakup of the Bloods; the photo shows teenage girls displaying photos of a murdered friend, a gang member, as though he were a fallen hero. Who reinforces these horrible attitudes? We expect kids to learn, when parents don't give a hoot and the gods of choice for children are homicidal criminals? Intervention begins in those neighborhoods; not in kindergarten.
8
NY liberals are very hypocritical; inclusiveness only when it is convenient for them.
51
Jan, it's not our fault if you can't find the PATH station.
I propose the bottom 10% of the grade schools be admitted to the best schools and these students be given peer students as they continue towards graduation. I predict the graduation rate will be higher than the status quo. It has always been proven in sociological studies the lowest rise to meet the highest.
1
So high-achieving students would each be saddled with a bottom-10% student to mentor instead of being allowed to concentrate on their own studies? Hm. Might work for lab animals.
31
Oh that will be wonderful for a student's self-image, to be failing almost every course you are taking while your high-achieving peers are soaring in calculus, physics, etc. How about sending 10% of poor athletes to play on the Knicks?
34
Good idea! Although I think it should be more balanced across the board (like the theory but not the reality of "ed-opt" schools). And those students (ALL of them) would benefit from having more real life exposure. In the real world most people interact with all kinds of people, not just the ones with the highest test scores.
1
The Times has been complicit in segregation and impoverishing of NYC schools by its unexamined support of charter schools and choice. Organizations like Families for Excellent Schools have bamboozled the media and public with propaganda, purporting to be grass roots, while actually serving as a front for hedge fund and plutocrat dollars.
The city doesn't have an education problem. It has an ongoing poverty and racism problem, which neither New York nor America is willing to face.
The city doesn't have an education problem. It has an ongoing poverty and racism problem, which neither New York nor America is willing to face.
35
In the absence of text formatting, this post represents my wish to apply boldface and underlining to steve's comment above.
This article and many of these comments miss the point he makes powerfully and succinctly.
This article and many of these comments miss the point he makes powerfully and succinctly.
To achieve both greater inclusivity and better outcomes is to allow parents to choose at which public or charter school our children are educated, beginning at elementary school and continuing through high school. Some will choose local while some will prefer to travel to find a school that satisfies their expectations for academic program and diversity. There will no doubt be disruption, as sought after schools must grow and non-performing ones will have to close for lack of demand. But that is a small price to pay to provide our children with the rigorous and diverse experience to which all, not some, should have access. Only then will we have equity and inclusion, and improved educational outcomes.
2
Your recommendations to allow all families to choose their children's schools, K-12, assumes that all parents are available to make these life-changing choices. What of the thousands of denizens, many who are divorced, disabled, cash/education strapped, who cannot make informed choices? It takes enormous effort to research schools. No matter if our city and the rest of our nation continue our present public school system, or try giving parents more control, The Apartheid educational systems remain. Much better: see the previous contributor, whose suggestion that the bottom achieving pupils rise to meet the majority always yields a higher rate if results!
2
Children and their abilities are mainly products of their parents, not the schools. Middle class people in New York City have few children, too few to even "integrate" the city's schools. They are too busy working long hours, and paying taxes and rent, to have more children. The poor, in public housing, have more city support. They have more children, and produce most of the city's children. The city's most talented people overwhelmingly grew up elsewhere. Trying to "integrate" when middle-class non-minority children are less than 20% of the total population will only scare the talented into the suburbs when it is time for their children to go to school, making the schools the exclusive province of the inner-city poor.
86
There are about an equal amount of white and Black children in the public schools - about 310k each. Yet they do not attend each school in equal numbers.
Stop your rationalizations.
Stop your rationalizations.
4
BTW, "scare the talented into the suburbs"? That happened in Detroit and it was called "RACISM". But that label appears only applicable to folks in flyover country, not in a globalist cosmopolitan city like NY - keep pretending.
4
According to the NYC Dep't of Education's website there are 302K black students and 169K white students.
2
Separate schools are wrong. Go to the school in your neighborhood. An infusion of kids from engaged, education driven parents will improve the outcomes at struggling schools and improve the lives of kids who aren't fortunate enough to have that emphasis in their lives. The schools and teachers are not the issue; they all have the same degrees no matter where they teach. It's the difficult family backgrounds of the students and the limited opportunities they see for themselives. Mandating neighborhood based schooling will leaven the whole loaf.
6
"Mandating neighborhood based schooling will leaven the whole loaf."
So it will drag down the high performing students to the lowest common denominator.
So it will drag down the high performing students to the lowest common denominator.
9
"So it will drag down the high performing students to the lowest common denominator."
No, they will still be in New York, not New Jersey.
No, they will still be in New York, not New Jersey.
Charles W: first off, " high performing" is often doublespeak for "rich white kids".
Second: even if you are truly high performing....NOTHING in life is going to cater to you and ensure you are always surrounded with people precisely JUST LIKE YOU.
Schools in a democracy must mix people from all levels of life -- not just the rich white or asian ones in elite enclaves that keep everyone else out.
Second: even if you are truly high performing....NOTHING in life is going to cater to you and ensure you are always surrounded with people precisely JUST LIKE YOU.
Schools in a democracy must mix people from all levels of life -- not just the rich white or asian ones in elite enclaves that keep everyone else out.
Hey Bill. School desegregation in the 60s involved busing. Having taught in Harlem in the 80s and the S. Bronx in the 90s in elementary schools.. I will say that proper supplies were a huge issue. I simply bought materials. Single, and not a parent I didn't have to save for college. (BTW why are teachers at the beginning of their careers paid so poorly-- One is not paid for the job done but for years on the job (old teachers are not nec. better) and for educational credits-- more credits does not translate to better teaching.) And yes there were many awful teachers in those schools and a few extraordinary ones. Principals can make a difference. Assistant principals, most social workers, librarians, and support personnel are close to useless. (And this is a budget issue.) Schools are expensive and PS no transparency. Teachers are told by union and principal not to ever talk to the press. There are all kinds of parents as well. Responsible , irresponsible, foster... and all kinds of students. Instead of focusing on race or ethnicity.. its time to look at school culture. Make sure every child has trips during the year to mandated locations (museums, botanical gardens, farm, airport.) Children should be evaluated at both the beginning and end of the school year to see what progress they make under a particular teacher. Give teachers five or ten contracts but no tenure.) Try busing again?? Social engineering could be great or a disaster.
6
Teachers in New York are paid an average of $110,000 after just a few years -- they start at $54,000, which isn't bad for a 22 year old with only a 4 year (super easy) bachelor's degree and ZERO work experience -- and it includes full benefits, deluxe gold-plated health care, a six hour day by union contract, 11 weeks paid summer break, 3 weeks at Christmas, a week at Easter, every legal holiday, snow days and "teacher conference days" for the shortest work year in the western world (technically, it is a part time job at full time pay!).
On a "per hour worked" basis, public school teachers earn more than physicists, architects, librarians, nurses, computer programmers and engineers. And get far more vacation time, unlimited sick leave, tenure after only 3 years AND get to retire 15 years earlier -- what is the VALUE of that? 15 extra years of retirement????
Oh, and this is why our schools are failing and going bankrupt.
On a "per hour worked" basis, public school teachers earn more than physicists, architects, librarians, nurses, computer programmers and engineers. And get far more vacation time, unlimited sick leave, tenure after only 3 years AND get to retire 15 years earlier -- what is the VALUE of that? 15 extra years of retirement????
Oh, and this is why our schools are failing and going bankrupt.
1
School choice traps low income students in an inferior "system within a system" is so right. When it is only the privileged few who get to choose, that isn't choice at all; it's discrimination.
10
The professor at Columbia proposes a lottery system. In other words, let chance decide. But chance is not choice either. Parentage is chance, too.
1
The "good" high schools have a problem. How do you distinguish between well-educated children who meet the entrance criteria, the poorly-educated children who can't meet them just because of poor preparation, and the poorly-educate children who can not gain from the "good" school.
By accepting children who do not pass the tests for entrance, the school takes a chance of accepting children of the third category. This will lower the school standards, perhaps to the point where it is no longer "good". Accepting only the ones who meet the criteria is safer; better to keep out children who could benefit rather than drag the school down.
I think that this problem must be solved, as the article says, but improving the earlier years of education, giving the students with ability the tools to express this ability. Were this (impossible task?) to be done, setting up strict entrance criteria would be a good idea. In today's system the "good" high schools face a dilemma.
By accepting children who do not pass the tests for entrance, the school takes a chance of accepting children of the third category. This will lower the school standards, perhaps to the point where it is no longer "good". Accepting only the ones who meet the criteria is safer; better to keep out children who could benefit rather than drag the school down.
I think that this problem must be solved, as the article says, but improving the earlier years of education, giving the students with ability the tools to express this ability. Were this (impossible task?) to be done, setting up strict entrance criteria would be a good idea. In today's system the "good" high schools face a dilemma.
19
In the report the Editorial refers to, middle-school children "have to choose from 439 schools that are further broken up into 775 programs." That is an absurdly convoluted system of choice. It is idiotic, and beyond belief that it exists.
3
This is a simple matter long since decided. Separate is inherently unequal. And it is past obvious that undoing separate requires compulsion. It does not matter why the schools are segregated. Their segregation is unconstitutional and must be remedied by all means necessary. For a model of success look to Charlotte, NC. And stop making excuses for what is inexcusable.
9
I wonder if we had more black and brown people, the Christians would go to the same school, and be segregated from the black and brown people.
Or, if we were all Protestants, the Established Church children would be segregated from the Methodist and Baptist children.
Or if we were all Catholics..........