"I wouldn't know since I stopped using my local library when they eliminated the book drop."
book drops cost nothing. was it because your neighbors were dumping trash in them or because too many people were claiming that they returned material which they hadn't.
reason?
book drops cost nothing. was it because your neighbors were dumping trash in them or because too many people were claiming that they returned material which they hadn't.
reason?
6
"So again, institute simple rule changes.
1. Only adults can rent DVDs.
2. Limit the number of DVDs that can be rented at a time to one or two. No more taking out "stacks" of DVDs."
these solutions are simple and wrong.
1.are teenagers by definition irresponsible and should be denied access to dvds?
there are people who binge watch movies as many as 5+ dvds over a 2 day period. should they be denied this small pleasure in life.
there seems to be a movement in America that believes everybody is childish and their behavior needs to be controlled through the heavy hand of authority. I don't like it.
1. Only adults can rent DVDs.
2. Limit the number of DVDs that can be rented at a time to one or two. No more taking out "stacks" of DVDs."
these solutions are simple and wrong.
1.are teenagers by definition irresponsible and should be denied access to dvds?
there are people who binge watch movies as many as 5+ dvds over a 2 day period. should they be denied this small pleasure in life.
there seems to be a movement in America that believes everybody is childish and their behavior needs to be controlled through the heavy hand of authority. I don't like it.
4
The Santa Fe system: No fines for overdue books, but if the books are overdue past a certain date, you can't check out any more books. Bring back the book (DVD, whatever) and your borrowing privileges are restored. No fine. It doesn't have to be the actual book that you checked out -- if you lost the book, you can replace it with a used book with the same title in readable condition.
10
I have no problem paying fines because it helps generate revenue for the library and they need it desperately. But here's a thought: cap the fines so they don't reach ridiculous proportions. I no longer live in NYC unfortunately and our local library is run--really owned--by a local resident who runs it like a petty dictator. One of my kids lost a book. It just can't be found. I asked to replace it and donate additional materials to try to compensate for what happened. I was told I could do this but the fines would continue to accumulate until the lost book is returned. That book cannot be found. We are very very sorry. Now my kid can't use her library card because the $20 book we lost continues to accumulate fines and this has been going on for at least two years so we are talking about hundreds of dollars. This is what fines can do when there's no flexibility and rules are enforced for the sake of cowing the transgressors.
5
Children shouldn't be punished because their parent/caregivers aren't responsible. As a Children's Librarian I see the conundrum, on the one hand I don't have funds to replace lost or long overdue items, but I also want every child in NYC to be able to use the library. My idea would be to have a special fine-free card for children that allows them to check out a certain number of books (maybe 10) NOT DVDS fine free. Limit access to Juvenile materials so parents don't abuse their children's borrowing privileges (sadly that happens quite often). That way kids can get their books, and we can limit the amount of materials that goes missing or long overdue.
6
Couple this with thr Editorial today on school cafeterias humiliating children who don't have money for food
The country has veered in a very harsh direction. We can blame Trump all we want be he was nominated and then elected.
What does all this say about all of us?
From the folks who voted for him to the liberals who said the election didn't matter to apathetic voters who proudly state they don't vote
How did it all become about "me" and not about "we"?
The country has veered in a very harsh direction. We can blame Trump all we want be he was nominated and then elected.
What does all this say about all of us?
From the folks who voted for him to the liberals who said the election didn't matter to apathetic voters who proudly state they don't vote
How did it all become about "me" and not about "we"?
7
As a librarian who has been advocating for the elimination of fines for almost 10 years, this is a perfect example of the bad press that fines can bring libraries, all for no good reason.
When considering the need for fines, we have to first ask what are fines for? Broadly speaking, they are either a revenue stream or a way to get materials back on time. If they're a revenue stream, they're a bad one. Fines account for less than 2% of most libraries' revenue. If they're a tool to get materials back on time, we have to ask why people bring materials back late? Again, broadly speaking, items are returned late either because the patron forgot, or something happened. If the patron forgot, we're nickel and diming people who are often our best customers, or we're alienating infrequent users. If something happened, why are we punishing the patron for something out of their control?
A much more effective way to get materials returned on time is just to restrict borrowing until overdue items are returned or renewed. Temporary lack of access (as this article demonstrates) is a much more effective tool and doesn't disadvantage the poor. For those few cases where the items are still not returned, patrons can be sent a bill for the cost of the items, even including a processing fee if necessary. That maintains accountability for library materials.
Libraries across the country are realizing this, and slowly fines are going away. NYPL would be well served to get on board with this trend.
When considering the need for fines, we have to first ask what are fines for? Broadly speaking, they are either a revenue stream or a way to get materials back on time. If they're a revenue stream, they're a bad one. Fines account for less than 2% of most libraries' revenue. If they're a tool to get materials back on time, we have to ask why people bring materials back late? Again, broadly speaking, items are returned late either because the patron forgot, or something happened. If the patron forgot, we're nickel and diming people who are often our best customers, or we're alienating infrequent users. If something happened, why are we punishing the patron for something out of their control?
A much more effective way to get materials returned on time is just to restrict borrowing until overdue items are returned or renewed. Temporary lack of access (as this article demonstrates) is a much more effective tool and doesn't disadvantage the poor. For those few cases where the items are still not returned, patrons can be sent a bill for the cost of the items, even including a processing fee if necessary. That maintains accountability for library materials.
Libraries across the country are realizing this, and slowly fines are going away. NYPL would be well served to get on board with this trend.
10
For each late book readers should actually make sure the book is not back on the shelf on NYPL. Twice we have had stacking up late fees on a book that we can't find at home and twice we have gone to the library and found the book sitting on their shelves because it was not checked back in properly.
https://www.nypl.org/help/borrowing-materials/library-fines-and-fees
Media fines have stepped out of line with the costs of the media. When a DVD is $20 or less on Amazon and NYPL is fining $3 a day then it does not take long for $100 of usurious fines to stack up.
It also does not help that these fines can impact those with less technology at home (though many have smart phones now). Renewing books on time, and you can renew a book many many times at NYPL prevents fines and can be done online.
Personally, with books coming home from the school library, and from the public library and our own books tracking books is not the easiest task.
https://www.nypl.org/help/borrowing-materials/library-fines-and-fees
Media fines have stepped out of line with the costs of the media. When a DVD is $20 or less on Amazon and NYPL is fining $3 a day then it does not take long for $100 of usurious fines to stack up.
It also does not help that these fines can impact those with less technology at home (though many have smart phones now). Renewing books on time, and you can renew a book many many times at NYPL prevents fines and can be done online.
Personally, with books coming home from the school library, and from the public library and our own books tracking books is not the easiest task.
4
How about the library makes it easier to return items by having after-hours drop boxes available at all branches?
13
I'm a Youth Services Librarian in a public library system. I saw this issue happening all the time, especially since my branch is in an area with more poverty than the rest of the system and our families can not afford high fines.
There's more abuse to the system than you would think. My least favorite thing is watching irresponsible parents check out 30 DVDs at a time, forget to return them, ignore the fee, and then start cycling through each of their children's cards. We have babies "checking out" horror movies or pricey video games that never come back. And then, once these kids grow up, they find that their card is in collections for $200 of fines and they can't check out anything.
I wrote a proposal to give teens in my system a second chance card to check out a limited number of items at a time despite fines they collected as kids. This means that they can use the library again. And I waive whatever fines I can get away with, and encourage those who still can't check out items to use the library in other ways. We also have an ongoing book sale cart of youth items for $.10 each, which a lot of people utilize instead of checking out items because you don't need to bring them back. We horde all the paperbacks for the summer so we can give them out free to kids who can't check out or who are leaving the country for the summer.
My point is that this issue is a lot more complicated than it seems in this article, and there are more options than just abolishing fines.
There's more abuse to the system than you would think. My least favorite thing is watching irresponsible parents check out 30 DVDs at a time, forget to return them, ignore the fee, and then start cycling through each of their children's cards. We have babies "checking out" horror movies or pricey video games that never come back. And then, once these kids grow up, they find that their card is in collections for $200 of fines and they can't check out anything.
I wrote a proposal to give teens in my system a second chance card to check out a limited number of items at a time despite fines they collected as kids. This means that they can use the library again. And I waive whatever fines I can get away with, and encourage those who still can't check out items to use the library in other ways. We also have an ongoing book sale cart of youth items for $.10 each, which a lot of people utilize instead of checking out items because you don't need to bring them back. We horde all the paperbacks for the summer so we can give them out free to kids who can't check out or who are leaving the country for the summer.
My point is that this issue is a lot more complicated than it seems in this article, and there are more options than just abolishing fines.
21
It sounds like the loan policy needs to change to put fewer titles at jeopardy at one time, limit additional check-outs when there are overdue items. The ongoing book sale is a good thing, not a threat. People are still coming to the library; the library needs to make its lending policies a bit friendlier (and harder to abuse at the same time).
1
Another thought, as I read the comments and thought more about the article.
The title of the article refers to "children who can't afford to be without BOOKS." But it seems that many of the fines -- in particular those that add up quickly and become a challenge to repay -- are associated with the late or non-return of DVDs.
So again, institute simple rule changes.
1. Only adults can rent DVDs.
2. Limit the number of DVDs that can be rented at a time to one or two. No more taking out "stacks" of DVDs.
3. When there are built up fines on a card associated with late/non-return of DVDs, allow LIMITED ability to take books from the library (again, one or two).
Revoking/suspending the ability to take DVDs from the library and allowing kids to have access to the books they "can't afford to be without" should be two separate concepts.
The title of the article refers to "children who can't afford to be without BOOKS." But it seems that many of the fines -- in particular those that add up quickly and become a challenge to repay -- are associated with the late or non-return of DVDs.
So again, institute simple rule changes.
1. Only adults can rent DVDs.
2. Limit the number of DVDs that can be rented at a time to one or two. No more taking out "stacks" of DVDs.
3. When there are built up fines on a card associated with late/non-return of DVDs, allow LIMITED ability to take books from the library (again, one or two).
Revoking/suspending the ability to take DVDs from the library and allowing kids to have access to the books they "can't afford to be without" should be two separate concepts.
10
Great article and yes indeed, disturbing.
What if books, tapes etc left the library in special bags? That way all materials might stay together in the wilds of a "home visit".
Safe keeping and safe returning. Only out of the bag when being used...that system certainly helps with my own dry cleaning adventures!
NY artists would happily take up the design challenge.
Best,
Mary Coogan
What if books, tapes etc left the library in special bags? That way all materials might stay together in the wilds of a "home visit".
Safe keeping and safe returning. Only out of the bag when being used...that system certainly helps with my own dry cleaning adventures!
NY artists would happily take up the design challenge.
Best,
Mary Coogan
2
This is the "sob story" Dwyer uses to illustrate the injustice of the library fine system:
As a resident of NY, Maria was given free access to the NYPL -- one of the greatest library systems in the world. Maria used this privilege to borrow a batch of DVDs, promising to return them by a certain date or else pay a fine or else lose borrowing privileges. Maria broke her promise, neither returning the DVDs on time nor paying the fine. Accordingly, she lost her borrowing privileges.
When Maria's 4-year-old boy then asked to go to the library, a place he loves, what did Maria do? Did she explain to him that they can go but not borrow any books, perhaps apologizing to him for the mistake she made which cost him this privilege? No. Did she sell her TV and DVD player to ensure that her child would continue to have full, unfettered access to the library system? No. Instead, Maria lied to her child and said that the library was closed, denying him the privilege of even visiting the library -- a harsher penalty than the NYPL had inflicted on her. And Maria repeated this lie to her child over and over again, until one day Maria got the idea of just asking the branch manager to restore her borrowing privileges even though she was not going to pay her fines. And the branch manager did it!
From this story, it is evident that Maria's 4-year-old boy does face numerous challenges. The NYPL's borrowing policy is not one of them.
As a resident of NY, Maria was given free access to the NYPL -- one of the greatest library systems in the world. Maria used this privilege to borrow a batch of DVDs, promising to return them by a certain date or else pay a fine or else lose borrowing privileges. Maria broke her promise, neither returning the DVDs on time nor paying the fine. Accordingly, she lost her borrowing privileges.
When Maria's 4-year-old boy then asked to go to the library, a place he loves, what did Maria do? Did she explain to him that they can go but not borrow any books, perhaps apologizing to him for the mistake she made which cost him this privilege? No. Did she sell her TV and DVD player to ensure that her child would continue to have full, unfettered access to the library system? No. Instead, Maria lied to her child and said that the library was closed, denying him the privilege of even visiting the library -- a harsher penalty than the NYPL had inflicted on her. And Maria repeated this lie to her child over and over again, until one day Maria got the idea of just asking the branch manager to restore her borrowing privileges even though she was not going to pay her fines. And the branch manager did it!
From this story, it is evident that Maria's 4-year-old boy does face numerous challenges. The NYPL's borrowing policy is not one of them.
25
You have hit the nail on the head. The problem with so many kids is not the kids, it's the parents, parents who do not help kids with their school work, parents who give their kids weird names, parents, native-born parents, who do not speak English properly, parents who do not attend parent-teacher conferences.
You know how on airplanes on long flights they have two crews where, after a period of time, one crew relieves the other crew? They should have something like that in the schools. Keep the kids in school as long as possible and away from their parents by employing two sets of teachers where a second set relieves the first set.
Do that and fewer kids will become the losers that their parents are.
You know how on airplanes on long flights they have two crews where, after a period of time, one crew relieves the other crew? They should have something like that in the schools. Keep the kids in school as long as possible and away from their parents by employing two sets of teachers where a second set relieves the first set.
Do that and fewer kids will become the losers that their parents are.
6
Have these people gone mad?! No one's library privileges should come at the expense of others' library privileges. This is precisely what happens when someone holds onto the books they've borrowed instead of returning them so others (including other children who are even needier than them) can check them out.
Children who cannot return the books they borrow should not be allowed to borrow books! They can continue reading books in the library, but they cannot be trusted to remove books from the library. To allow them to continue borrowing books and not returning them harms the library system and the people who depend on it.
Children who cannot return the books they borrow should not be allowed to borrow books! They can continue reading books in the library, but they cannot be trusted to remove books from the library. To allow them to continue borrowing books and not returning them harms the library system and the people who depend on it.
17
Let's just countenance irresponsibility, right?
How about letting the kids and their parents work off these fines by engaging in community service. The parents especially.
How about letting the kids and their parents work off these fines by engaging in community service. The parents especially.
12
Utilizing collected fines for operating costs? So do you want the books back on time or not? New York should look at the fining policy of the Metropolitan library system in Oklahoma. We have never heard of a $100 library fine out here, it takes more than an outstanding fine to have privileges revoked, and I don't know many people at all who don't use the library.
7
I am saddened by the high level of criticism in the comments.
In a perfect world, fines would be a good consequence for late returns. However, this is far from a perfect world.
Children should not lose reading privileges for fines from late or misplaced books. There are countless scenarios that prevent books from being returned in a timely fashion. Just because many people are fortunate to either return the books on time or afford to pay the fines doesn't mean that they have the right to judge those that can't.
Perhaps it's time to do a major overhaul of library policies. Relying on Branch managers to perform case-by-case waivers is not fair. The libraries can still earn money on the adult library fines, but the policy for children must change.
In a perfect world, fines would be a good consequence for late returns. However, this is far from a perfect world.
Children should not lose reading privileges for fines from late or misplaced books. There are countless scenarios that prevent books from being returned in a timely fashion. Just because many people are fortunate to either return the books on time or afford to pay the fines doesn't mean that they have the right to judge those that can't.
Perhaps it's time to do a major overhaul of library policies. Relying on Branch managers to perform case-by-case waivers is not fair. The libraries can still earn money on the adult library fines, but the policy for children must change.
6
I'm a librarian (there, I said it) and nothing chills me more than when I read a statement like Ms Johnson's: "we want to make sure the people who need them the most are not blocked out.” No one needs the library more than others--we all need them equally and without condition. There is no asterisk when I say that I serve everyone. Also, Mr. Dwyer's sarcastic comment about Mr. Walcott's "obvious point" is unhelpful. Overdue items don't just stop others from getting them--it usually means that funds are redirected for replacements. If we own fifteen copies of "La La Land" and have 60 people waiting for it, having five or six of those unavailable means we have to buy more copies.
And then there's the more ephemeral aspect: library card ownership is a fairly low-impact way to begin the road to adult responsibilities and understanding the social contract. I waive fines occasionally, because it horrifies me to think that people don't come into the library because of them. But, as another letter writer said, you have no idea how hard you have to work to rack up $100 in fines. We need to educate and assist patrons, neither punishing them nor allowing them a consequence-free account.
And then there's the more ephemeral aspect: library card ownership is a fairly low-impact way to begin the road to adult responsibilities and understanding the social contract. I waive fines occasionally, because it horrifies me to think that people don't come into the library because of them. But, as another letter writer said, you have no idea how hard you have to work to rack up $100 in fines. We need to educate and assist patrons, neither punishing them nor allowing them a consequence-free account.
32
So 1 in 5 children, because of the irresponsibility of their parents or caretakers (can't really blame the child, can we?), have their cards blocked.
So the other 4 children are can not rent a popular volume that gets lost or not returned in time. Who are the victims here?
To have great public institutions is to have shared responsibility in preserving those institutions. This includes taking great care to handle a $5 children's book carefully and return it in time to preserve it for others.
Seems to me the fines are rather minor and the Libraries are willing to work with even those folks who owe substantial amounts and truly cannot afford to pay them. Nothing is broken other than selfishness of people who have little regard the privileges they have.
So the other 4 children are can not rent a popular volume that gets lost or not returned in time. Who are the victims here?
To have great public institutions is to have shared responsibility in preserving those institutions. This includes taking great care to handle a $5 children's book carefully and return it in time to preserve it for others.
Seems to me the fines are rather minor and the Libraries are willing to work with even those folks who owe substantial amounts and truly cannot afford to pay them. Nothing is broken other than selfishness of people who have little regard the privileges they have.
23
Lunch money shaming. Book fine shaming. Health care shaming (too poor, too bad!). What kind of people have we become?
10
the answer is a nation of selfish and irresponsible adults who set poor examples for their children. while I would not say that the nation as a whole fits this description a substantial minority of people do.
3
How about eliminating "due dates" for patrons under a certain age altogether, but reducing the number of items that can be checked out at once?
Start with 3 items that can be checked out at a time. Keep them as long as you like, but if you have an item that's been outstanding for more than 30 days -- you are only allowed to have a total of 2 outstanding items: the one that has been outstanding for 30 days and 1 more.
That way, if something gets "lost" -- you can still keep borrowing, as long as you don't lose anything else. And if you find it and return it -- there's no fine associated with the loss, plus you get your full borrowing privileges restored.
Start with 3 items that can be checked out at a time. Keep them as long as you like, but if you have an item that's been outstanding for more than 30 days -- you are only allowed to have a total of 2 outstanding items: the one that has been outstanding for 30 days and 1 more.
That way, if something gets "lost" -- you can still keep borrowing, as long as you don't lose anything else. And if you find it and return it -- there's no fine associated with the loss, plus you get your full borrowing privileges restored.
6
it is too complicated for many adults to comprehend and/or explain to their children.
3
Discipline is important to success. Dealing with rules is necessary for success. Minority children are no different than any other children. Stop being patronizing towards minorities.
13
As was stated as the obvious, fines are necessary in order to ensure that books are available for everyone. Although it is unfortunate, without the threat of fines books will either be returned late or not at all, depriving other children of the opportunity to read. Giving the librarian discretion to waive fines for unusual circumstances would probably make sense. Otherwise, fines are necessary for the greater good. And, since most fines are small, just giving up popcorn at the movie theater would cover the expense, rich or poor!
16
Our public library system, one of the most used systems in the country instituted no fines on children's books and on items taken out on a child's card.
We also have drop slots at every library branch and online renewal capability. I didn't often incur late fees on my daughter's books because of the drop slots and online renewal, but I'm thrilled for all the young readers in our system. NYCPL could learn something from Portland Oregon
We also have drop slots at every library branch and online renewal capability. I didn't often incur late fees on my daughter's books because of the drop slots and online renewal, but I'm thrilled for all the young readers in our system. NYCPL could learn something from Portland Oregon
9
I am a librarian, and I would like to pay the fines for some of these children. How can I get a list of fines owed at a specific library, say in the South Bronx, and donate money to eradicate the fines?
7
If a person can find the time to go to the library to borrow a book or DVD, that person can find time to return the book or DVD to the library so that others may borrow it. This is not a poverty issue. This is a thoughtfulness issue.
20
This breaks my heart. I developed a love of libraries as a kid and I cherish them today too. I use my library all the time, it's an under-appreciated public service. I want this for all my neighbors, especially those who can't afford to buy books or videos for their families.
And librarians marched with us at the March for Science--I thanked the one next to me, but I saw more of their signs as well. My librarians also stood with us at our Sanctuary city rally. They stand strong for us on civil liberties and privacy.
I can't imagine they want to withhold access to anyone. But I understand the budget pressures too.
I wonder if I can pay some fines for some kids the way people are now picking up overdue lunch money for kids. I'm gonna ask the next time I go to the library.
And librarians marched with us at the March for Science--I thanked the one next to me, but I saw more of their signs as well. My librarians also stood with us at our Sanctuary city rally. They stand strong for us on civil liberties and privacy.
I can't imagine they want to withhold access to anyone. But I understand the budget pressures too.
I wonder if I can pay some fines for some kids the way people are now picking up overdue lunch money for kids. I'm gonna ask the next time I go to the library.
6
Most authors dream of eager readers keeping books, take and keep mine, please!
2
I wonder if the current practice (at the BPL branches, anyway) to not accept cash for fines is part of the problem. It seems counter productive for a public institution to demand only credit or debit cards for payment.
And why aren't libraries, traditionally our neighborhood educational bulwarks, taking currency? They used to, not that long ago.
Also, computerizing checkouts and fees defeats any hands-on teaching of borrower responsibilities. I know my childhood local library days were instrumental in learning these.
And why aren't libraries, traditionally our neighborhood educational bulwarks, taking currency? They used to, not that long ago.
Also, computerizing checkouts and fees defeats any hands-on teaching of borrower responsibilities. I know my childhood local library days were instrumental in learning these.
5
For what it's worth (and full disclosure, I work at BPL), you're right to say that requiring a credit or debit card for payment would be prohibitive. However, the library card kiosks in the branches DO enable patrons to use cash to pay fines -- it's just that staff at the checkout desk can't handle/accept the cash since it creates a huge security and liability risk.
4
I grew up by being told to be responsible for your actions. I returned my books on time and could not wait for a borrowed book to be returned that I wanted to read. If these children and parents disregard the rules, there are consequences. The fines are there for a reason. Otherwise why return the books or dvds. We are becoming a society were there is no personal responsible for your action. Don't worry about it. What about the people who are responsible, they are the ones suffering. Teach responsibility otherwise we will become a society with excuses!!!
22
Can the kids volunteer to help clean books or shelve them to earn credit against their fines?
6
Can't really do that - child labor laws, debtors prisons outlawed, etc. But I get your point that reading to work off your fine seems like a treat not a fine. Maybe a lecture instead on a Saturday afternoon about why they have to return books on time (in CA you used to have to go to a class if you got too many driving tickets - it was a long time ago, but you had to do the time to get it off your record...)
No. Volunteers seem like a great idea but as someone who has worked with them at a local branch I can tell you that many use it as an opportunity to censor the collection because of their perceptions of quality or quantity. That's not what they are there to do. Then they get tired of shelving books after a few weeks or months and quit because they aren't allowed to decide what ought to be on the shelves. I regularly volunteer in my community but when I donate blood to the Red Cross I don't expect to be permitted to tell them who gets it.
2
Most professional librarians are committed to public service and are apt to forgive fines. Please don't blame the librarians for this one. Also, librarians didn't sell the old Donnell Library builidng to a hedge fund so that they could shrink the branch and levy more fines. Good grief.
17
An article about obstacles to children and young adults using the public library would be a useful contribution to our libraries continuing struggles for funding. This article is not it. As has been pointed out, the example of a family that lost library borrowing privileges because "a batch of DVDs" was returned late does not support the central concept. Also, comparing our public library systems to the Department of Motor Vehicles is a flawed metaphor. Libraries share resources; the DMV simply collects fees. The issue here is more than charging book fines to children. NYC libraries need to change policies that don't allow families with working parents (practically all the families in the five boroughs) to use them, and this includes book drops, late hours, weekend hours, and probably more, but, frankly, I wouldn't know since I stopped using my local library when they eliminated the book drop. And, I'm a librarian! And, we need to take on the responsibility of demanding funding for these services from the city.
13
Ha! Children's cards are fine free in many areas, like San Francisco and Berkeley and Oakland ... and it works just fine. Let the kids read fine free!
12
How do you know if it works fine? Do you know how many hundreds of books, or thousands, go missing every year that need to be replaced at taxpayer expense?
5
I'd rather taxes replace books instead of bombs and missiles.
2
Condescending policies like this treats the poorer people as individuals who should be exempted from the basic responsible, civic-minded behavior we expect from ourselves. Rather than paternalistic programs that facilitate irresponsibility, perhaps we should assist parents and young people who want to undermine the cycle of dependence and poverty found in many of our neighborhoods by encouraging the core principles of a healthy civil society — self-respect and mutual responsibility. Doing your duty feels a lot better that escaping your responsibility.
If young people and their parents cannot pay the late fines, which are usually less than the cost of unhealthy fast foods and drinks, then perhaps they can repay the community by helping volunteers shelf books or doing some other service that helps others. Whatever the details, the bottom line is to provide children and parents the opportunity to feef self-respect and personal value, and not feel like evaders or dependent people from whom less is expected.
If young people and their parents cannot pay the late fines, which are usually less than the cost of unhealthy fast foods and drinks, then perhaps they can repay the community by helping volunteers shelf books or doing some other service that helps others. Whatever the details, the bottom line is to provide children and parents the opportunity to feef self-respect and personal value, and not feel like evaders or dependent people from whom less is expected.
18
'If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.'
The above is my knee jerk reaction to the article on the NYPL's book fine policy.
Since childhood, the NYPL has been a wonderful resource for me, initially for recreational reading and later when I was going for my undergrad and grad degrees, utilizing the G.I. Bill.
While I would support waiving fines on a case by case basis, I am totally against any mass amnesty or waiver program. I feel that by doing so, the NYPL is demonstrating fiscal irresponsibility. I find the fact that the Queens Library system alone waived $160,000 in fines this year outrageous! And letting those who owe money, work off their debt by reading a certain number of books in a specified period of time, strikes me as a reward for bad behavior.
I feel that when fines hit a certain level, (I'll let the library determine that amount) that a repayment plan could be instituted. This way the library gets the money owed to it and the lender retains the ability to continue checking out books. Yes, I realize this may be cumbersome, but as someone who has financially supported the NYPL for the last 40 years, I feel it is imperative that some type of action be taken to reduce this debt.
The above is my knee jerk reaction to the article on the NYPL's book fine policy.
Since childhood, the NYPL has been a wonderful resource for me, initially for recreational reading and later when I was going for my undergrad and grad degrees, utilizing the G.I. Bill.
While I would support waiving fines on a case by case basis, I am totally against any mass amnesty or waiver program. I feel that by doing so, the NYPL is demonstrating fiscal irresponsibility. I find the fact that the Queens Library system alone waived $160,000 in fines this year outrageous! And letting those who owe money, work off their debt by reading a certain number of books in a specified period of time, strikes me as a reward for bad behavior.
I feel that when fines hit a certain level, (I'll let the library determine that amount) that a repayment plan could be instituted. This way the library gets the money owed to it and the lender retains the ability to continue checking out books. Yes, I realize this may be cumbersome, but as someone who has financially supported the NYPL for the last 40 years, I feel it is imperative that some type of action be taken to reduce this debt.
9
Queens Library waives fines for kids who read down their fine -- they check in with a librarian and for every half-hour, they can deduct a $1 off their fine. It's a great way to encourage kids to read, give them some consequences for late books, and instill discipline.
10
It's $160,000! We are talking thousands not millions of dollars!!!! Thats not outrageous. And the Queens Public Library is not a small system. What do libraries exist for except to loan books and materials. If they stop doing that they're out of business.
2
I find myself vaguely appalled at the chastisers in the comments below. Children aren't allowed to go anywhere on their own these days, and if your parent or chaperone is unavailable or not inclined to take you to the library frequently, you shouldn't be allowed to check books out? Personal responsibility is important to learn, but this lesson for those children seems to be that you are punished for things over which you may have no control and that those with money can buy their way back into society's good graces while you cannot. I think the rest of the world teaches that lesson often enough.
27
Here's the real problem:
"The libraries rely on the fine revenue, and many users can afford the fees."
When we underfund public services we create pressure on agencies to implement Procrustean policies that, far from being fair, crush the most needy.
"The libraries rely on the fine revenue, and many users can afford the fees."
When we underfund public services we create pressure on agencies to implement Procrustean policies that, far from being fair, crush the most needy.
16
Who pays for the libraries in NYC? I live upstate NY and our property taxes help pay for the library. It is call the Marlborough Free Library. No fines period!
I think most people who use the library are considerate and try to abide by the rules, etc.
I think most people who use the library are considerate and try to abide by the rules, etc.
5
Quite a conundrum. When I was a child my father took my sisters and me to the library EVERY Saturday without fail and to this day I borrow online or visit my local branch. For a child not to have access because of fines is problematic but I understand why there are fines. How about a program to sponsor a kids reading? Bring back books, have no more late fees for a 6 months - and your fines are forgiven or paid for by an adult book mentor? I would do that for a NYC kid who wanted to read.
17
I am surprised to hear this happens. My impression was that they are pretty lenient. I often rack up fines because I am late returning my son's books, and I have never been pressured to pay them. We lost a book a few weeks ago and I didn't have enough cash for the fine (they don't take cards); the librarian accepted whatever I had in my pockets and that was that. They do freeze your account when you hold on to items for too long. I would not mind paying for other kids' fines - there should be a fundraising campaign around that.
6
"Progressives" are always asking what they can do, if they are not rich. I was very moved by this article and I would like to start something at my local library. There are many of us out here who could afford $50-100 per year to pay the fines of kids who really want to read. That said, I'm also aware of the fine system as a learning tool for responsibility. I plan to go to my local library are ask how we can start something where children can write a letter to an individual (through some central channel) explaining why they want to continue to read and why they would like their library privileges restored. Since I'm big on real reading over screen time, I would like this to only apply to overdue fines on books, not DVDs. Anybody out there on board with this, in theory?
21
Allowing these children to keep getting books is an important piece of a multi-pronged solution to education inequality and the consequences of severe poverty and circumstances the families and certainly the children have no control over. This is a national problem. When children in more resourced families tell their parents they need some money for a library fine, they may get a lecture but they also get the money. There are many families that simply can't stretch to cover the fine and there are household situations (abuse, shelters, fostering) that cannot offer the child library fine support. These kids have found their way to books. Let them stay there.
8
Return the books on time. Late? Pay fine. If you lose it pay for it. Simple, no?
8
Life is never that simple. I'm a librarian and this breaks my heart. Some can pay and some can't.
4
No, it's not simple. Unless of course one's worldview is completely unnuanced.
4
Maybe you should be reading a few more books about the often chaotic and precarious lives of low-income children before you decide it's so "simple." What is the excuse for this deep ignorance?
2
I was traumatized for years by a fine + mean lecture from a stern librarian at the Brooklyn public library when I was about 8. Chaotic home life, no money, and like Geoffrey Canada, didn't go back to that branch.
A better approach? Some libraries offer amnesty twice a year -- bring in the old books, stop at the desk, get your account cleared. Or have kids write a book review or attend a reading or library event to get their card back.
Sometimes tough love is the cure -- but sometimes a kid just needs kindness.
A better approach? Some libraries offer amnesty twice a year -- bring in the old books, stop at the desk, get your account cleared. Or have kids write a book review or attend a reading or library event to get their card back.
Sometimes tough love is the cure -- but sometimes a kid just needs kindness.
55
Let's have some safety in this world. Reading is a great thing! It helps to lift maybe even prevent crime. How about yes instead of you can't,can't can't.
4
What is infuriating is that most of these community libraries close at 6pm, are not open on Sundays, and have NO book drops. I've tried to find the time to return books, but between working full time and dashing to pick up my child and getting dinner ready, I can't. One time, when I did make it, I wasn't able to pay the fees because they don't take cash and the credit card system was broken. I wasn't allowed to take out books. I deal with a lot of city agencies in my work, and this kind of catch-22 is typical. After $35 in late fees, we stopped going to the library.
35
Manhattan branches are typically open 10 to 5. Many have no drop boxes.
1
The lack of book drops is a serious problem for working families. If the only time you can get to the library is one day on a weekend, pretty much any standard sort of family crisis will make it hard for you to return books.
I wonder if it would be possible to set up a system in which kids could return books to their public schools, and the books could be transported back to the library system. Since most kids in this situation will be attending a school and visiting a library local to them, the resources required might not be so great.
I wonder if it would be possible to set up a system in which kids could return books to their public schools, and the books could be transported back to the library system. Since most kids in this situation will be attending a school and visiting a library local to them, the resources required might not be so great.
2
Incorrect. My own branch is open until 6 on Mondays, and until 7 three days a week. Some locations, are open even later, like mid-manhattan which closes at 11PM.
1
it is tiresome the excuses for the poor.
" “I couldn’t bring him there and not let him borrow books."
you sit there while he reads. it wouldn't hurt if you set an example by reading.
it is the parent's fault, especially for pre=teenagers, if library material is returned late
" “I couldn’t bring him there and not let him borrow books."
you sit there while he reads. it wouldn't hurt if you set an example by reading.
it is the parent's fault, especially for pre=teenagers, if library material is returned late
19
NYPL provides the opportunity to discover the world through branch libraries and research facilities despite underfunding and many other challenges. Its generosity is abused and demeaned by some. Thank you for your astute comments, Mr. Marx.
7
This is the jumping the shark of entitlements.
9
Just when I think The New York Times can't get any more ridiculous, it finds a way.
Of course you should lose your library privileges if you lose a book. How do you lose a book? I was taught books were valuable.
And an adult should be able to return a CD on time, as agreed. Children need to be taught the same responsibility.
As either Woody Allen or Groucho Marx said, "90% of life is just showing up on time." The other 10% is returning things you borrowed on time.
Are we aiming for a society where personal responsibility is no longer a virtue?
Of course you should lose your library privileges if you lose a book. How do you lose a book? I was taught books were valuable.
And an adult should be able to return a CD on time, as agreed. Children need to be taught the same responsibility.
As either Woody Allen or Groucho Marx said, "90% of life is just showing up on time." The other 10% is returning things you borrowed on time.
Are we aiming for a society where personal responsibility is no longer a virtue?
22
What is the excuse for returning a stack of DVDs late? None, and they're not books anyway, so your paean to irresponsibility tied to the love of reading is nullified.
Librarians already have the discretion to settle overdues. But If fines are abolished, the loss of materials will be barely calculable.
Librarians already have the discretion to settle overdues. But If fines are abolished, the loss of materials will be barely calculable.
15
My local library, in Brooklyn, is closed on Sundays and has odd hours on weekdays that you have to look up (typically closing at 6pm), and, crucially: no drop-box! So you have to visit the library when it's open. This leads to a lot of fines for me, a responsible adult who lives very close. For a lot of kids, if they miss a Saturday, they would be out of luck. Remember Blockbuster? They actually made a lot of money on fines, but even they provided a drop box for after-hours returns! (And they were open many more hours, and every day.)
26
This is correct. The two Manhattan branches I frequent are open 10 to 5 and have no drop boxes. It IS very inconvenient.
11
Gene,
While I don't deny what you're saying; since obviously people found a way to take out books during the hours of their particlular branch, IMHO, they can find the time to return them.
While I don't deny what you're saying; since obviously people found a way to take out books during the hours of their particlular branch, IMHO, they can find the time to return them.
5
Two choices and simple common sense: either read the books in the library so you won't have to take them out and then worry about late fees, or, be responsible and pay the late fees or bring the books back on time without late fees and be responsible and considerate so that someone else can read the book too. Simple. Stop being selfish and irresponsible and inconsiderate just as Trumpet and all Republican'ts are. Think of others not yourself and the world will be a better place. See the current overturn of the ACA yesterday by the heartless Republican'ts.
1
OH PLEASE. This is entirely within the control of those borrowing books. Have some personal responsibility ALREADY. Return books on time or face the consequences. That's good lesson for kids to learn. Without consequences and incentive, books won't be returned. Enough!!!!
20
At NYPL the book or DVD or CD can be renewed up to 10 times. unless someone else has a hold on it. Renewals can be done online or on the phone or at the library.
1
This is a real problem. I teach at a middle school in the South Bronx, where we fight a daily battle to help students learn that reading is fun and not a chore. We have a great school library, but it's small and doesn't - couldn't possibly - contain all the books that might grab my students' attention and help them take pleasure in reading. I have a number of students who will not return to their local library - sometimes because of an outstanding fine that has frozen their card, and sometimes because of the shame of having to face the librarian even after the fine has been paid off. Responsibility is one of the most important things I want my students to learn, and they must of course learn to recognize the consequences of their actions - but there is not a single bookstore here in the Bronx, and cutting my students off from books is a.) not going to teach them that and b.) not worth it in any way.
28
Emily, have you gotten in touch with your local librarian? If you're able to schedule a class visit, your students will be able to get cards, check out and return books, and get to know their local librarians, eliminating any fear of reprimand. I am a children's librarian and when I have class visits I waive any over due fees during those visits, and give kids a fresh start if they have outstanding fees. My fellow youth services colleagues follow this model as far as I know, so please consider reaching out.
1
Libraries are for lending and sharing limited resources. The idea that people are not capable of returning books and DVD’s in a timely manner is ridiculous. Allowing patrons to keep items permanently or for an indefinite amount of time robs other patrons of the ability to use the same resources. The library should get out of DVD rental and focus the money on ESL, literacy and books.
10
Library funding comes, in part, from the number of users at each branch. Unfortunately, DVD's bring people in and that ultimately means more funds for buying books.
1
Our library has a program where every so often food-pantry donations will wipe out a modest level of fines. Book fines still tend to be modest - a dime a day. However, late DVDs are $1/day. Newer releases (books, DVDs) also are due back sooner. This can explain why some balances grow so high. Giving users the option of either paying or accepting a suspension of take-home privileges is a solution which helps the less affluent while respecting that their overdue items can mean that other users are inconvenienced.
3
I am an American currently living abroad in Spain and think the overdue library book policy in Madrid seems quite reasonable: for every day that your book is overdue, you are prohibited from checking out a new book for an equivalent length of time. So, one month overdue means one month of no new books. This helps even out the penalty across income levels (you would still have the issue of low-income readers having fewer books at home to compensate for the temporary loss of library privileges). Of course, libraries here don't have to depend on fine collections since they are adequately funded to begin with, but that's a separate issue.
42
It would have been helpful, and honest, if this piece had detailed why various families had racked up fines. Did they never return the materials in question or did they just consistently return materials late? I've been a public library user my whole life and I think one would really have to work hard to have a fine of over $100 (as one family mentioned had.)
I hate to point this out but people are willing to pay for what they value and I wonder how many of the folks who walk away from a library rather than pay fines-ever- manage to find money for cable, smart phones, tablets, gaming systems, etc. By all means, reduce fines for lateness and encourage mercy on the part of individual librarians, maybe even have a well publicized library fine amnesty day if one returns materials, but let's not pretend that being poor renders one uniquely incapable of keeping track of borrowed materials and returning them on time. Talk about low expectations!
I hate to point this out but people are willing to pay for what they value and I wonder how many of the folks who walk away from a library rather than pay fines-ever- manage to find money for cable, smart phones, tablets, gaming systems, etc. By all means, reduce fines for lateness and encourage mercy on the part of individual librarians, maybe even have a well publicized library fine amnesty day if one returns materials, but let's not pretend that being poor renders one uniquely incapable of keeping track of borrowed materials and returning them on time. Talk about low expectations!
37
In the NYPL, DVDs have a fine of $3.00 for each day that they're late. A fine of $100 is hard to rack up on books unless you lose a bunch. But if someone took out 6 DVDs, it would take less than a week for the fines to hit $100.
3
Yeah-- everyone should just instruct the Nanny to return books every Friday after they have washed out the dishes from the tea.
2
DVD fines are $3/day at the NYPL. If you have a stack of DVDs checked out and can't make it to the library for a week, that could easily cost $100.
5
"No one is suggesting that people — including children — should not be held responsible for bringing books back."
I would suggest that the fines be worked off. Have the kids re-shelve books or help with research for a few hours. Teach them responsibility. Yes, I would suggest that, but then I'd probably be accused of book shaming. Or, more accurately, irresponsibility shaming.
I would suggest that the fines be worked off. Have the kids re-shelve books or help with research for a few hours. Teach them responsibility. Yes, I would suggest that, but then I'd probably be accused of book shaming. Or, more accurately, irresponsibility shaming.
42
Agreed. Its just so annoying that child labor was abolished.
9
Perhaps reading the books at the library could be a solution.
12
Not even a close call. Without personal responsibility our society turns into a free-for-all. The large majority of fines owed are just carelessness and "who cares" attitude.
29
Personal responsibility is not developed through punishment. So many commenters seem to have no understanding of what households with small children are like. Most parents have too much to deal with and children have no ability to force their parents to return their books. (Should the kids call a General Strike to force the parents to run their errands for them, instead of doing silly things like going to work each day...) Perhaps penalizing people, by denying them books is just a concept with no place in our world.
11
KM Dyer, I'm sure plenty of commenter's know what it's like to have a household with small children. I certainly do. I'm not telling the nanny to return the materials after cleaning up from tea, as you sarcastically suggested after my comment. I simply do not see the impossibility of poor people, parents, or poor people who are parents returning materials in a timely fashion. These are community resources and if parents are able to get their children to the library to check stuff out, they ought to be able to get back there to return said stuff. If there are no drop boxes, as others have stated, then that situation should be remedied.
2
Or people who don't have access to a computer at home to renew items (or don't know they have this option). Or family emergencies that keep folks from returning items in time. Or libraries that aren't open late more than one night a week and don't have return boxes available after hours. There's more than carelessness and who cares at play here.
9
My mother eliminated fines at the library she directed. Bless her soul.
10
Fines should go along with alternative option of "volunteering at the library", in a manner that includes friendly contact with the library staff, to turn a negative dynamic into a positive dynamic.
Fines should include wording "If it's difficult to afford this money, and volunteering some time would also be hard to do, come talk with us, we can be flexible, we're not trying to make use of our library a negative experience".