Perhaps, not necessarily, but perhaps, the reason adults and professionals are portrayed as clueless in this series is that society in general is beginning to realize that the "professional" response to depression or any other mental health disorder is shockingly clinical and tone deaf. The clinical response to mental health disorders is to lock people in prison-like psychiatric settings and medicate them heavily, releasing them after they demonstrate compliance with a "treatment plan" in which they have no input and their own input is not taken seriously because they are "too sick to make decisions for themselves". Once people are stabilized, they are sent out the door with a big bill, a bottle of pills, an appointment with a psychiatrist to get more pills and a have a nice day. Since this is the state of mental health treatment, it is no wonder that professionals and adults are conveyed as clueless in artistic depictions of mental health crisis, because they are.
2
The show '13 Reasons Why' glorified suicide. Personally, while watching the Netflix original, I felt suicide was being romanticized. Hannah Baker went through multiple situations that will most likely go on in every high school. Potentially, this means the majority of the show's audience is going through the same thing as Hannah. The show is saying the solution is suicide when really, it should be going to a trusted adult and telling them what is going on. Also, it doesn't help that the show, makes it look like adults are clueless or just don't care when in real life, that's not the case. Honestly, I did enjoy the show for the cute parts that make you smile or laugh but the majority of it was depressing which is why I can understand the concern of parents. People who are watching this should understand that suicide is not a way to "escape" their problems or make others feel guilty, but is only an act of weakness.
1
People have different opinions for everything. For example, some think that durians taste good and some might think it's the most disgusting thing set foot in the mouth. That's the same case for a popular Netflix show, '13 Reasons Why.' Some people think that it promotes suicide and some think it demotes suicide. A nurse also, a mother in this article said that it might've promoted her depression in her daughter while other people say that it destroys suicidal thoughts for example, the cast and the crew of the show. I myself believe that it just have to do with the background of a person's life. Let's take a look at the nurse's family's life. Someone committed suicide in the family and the family's trying to recover. Watching that show might not have been the best choice. Wouldn't it remind you of the family member that killed themselves? But you have a different background. You have a happy life. If you watch the show, it's just a sad show. When you have suicidal thoughts and depressions and you watch this show, then it's the way you interpret it. You might think that if you killed yourself, you would make the ones who hurt you feel bad or you might think that it will affect people who cares for you the most like the way Mrs. Baker feels for Hannah. Different opinions came from a way of interpretation and backgrounds. This is my opinion on this article.
1
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1
There really shouldn't be any argument about this. Freud had it pegged long ago when he wrote about scopophilia, the pleasure derived from the act of looking, and our subsequent identification with the image. We take pleasure in watching the image and we can't help but identify with what we see on the screen. If we didn't we wouldn't be able to relate to the story-image. We'd be bored, uninterested. Teens are therefore watching this show and projecting themselves into the roles of the various characters, most notably that of Hannah Baker, the suicidee. The very act of watching this show engenders a fascination with the story.
People in TV and film never seem to understand this basic premise of their industry. They think they are merely exploring issues. That there is a way to remain neutral. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that they understand that the story they have created is artificial and constructed. However, to a naive viewing public, a public that has been conditioned to think that the outrageous fantasy of Hollywood is somehow akin to reality, this artificial constructedness is completely opaque. The public does not see it. What it sees is a girl with whom they can identify, who by the very fact of being on screen somehow becomes larger and more dramatic than life itself. What do teens want? To be the center of attention, to be important, admired, understood and identified with, have a camera ont here life story, be part of an epic tale. Be careful
People in TV and film never seem to understand this basic premise of their industry. They think they are merely exploring issues. That there is a way to remain neutral. Perhaps this has to do with the fact that they understand that the story they have created is artificial and constructed. However, to a naive viewing public, a public that has been conditioned to think that the outrageous fantasy of Hollywood is somehow akin to reality, this artificial constructedness is completely opaque. The public does not see it. What it sees is a girl with whom they can identify, who by the very fact of being on screen somehow becomes larger and more dramatic than life itself. What do teens want? To be the center of attention, to be important, admired, understood and identified with, have a camera ont here life story, be part of an epic tale. Be careful
3
This series, "13 Reasons Why" appears hollow. The main character, Hannah Baker, is too bright and strong. But I fear that it makes suicide look far better than the reality. Bullying is the real issue, and too many of her "friends" did throw her under the bus.
Bullying is what parents, teachers, students and schools must address. We all suffer for bullying but our current society makes it much bigger and worse, for example, Facebook.
Bullying is what parents, teachers, students and schools must address. We all suffer for bullying but our current society makes it much bigger and worse, for example, Facebook.
1
The series offers us (adults) entrance into an autobiographical-like experience of young life. By dismissing its value, you are risking your artistic integrity. The series is a story. What is revealed to you (adults) are the layers of suffering (depression, suicide, bullying, self-abjection, rape, etc.) but also the distance of misunderstanding between youth and adults and the coming-of-age experience in the U.S. While viewers keep demanding resources (links, pamphlets, medical professionals) to explain each reason why, we sort of let slip past us the very importance of the autobiographical-like account: that there has been deficient accountable resources for our youth --> the series allows entrance into the confounding experience of depression and the realities of support systems and their shortcomings. That's the power of artistic reality on display for us (adults), the unveiling before our eyes, that is, an experience of seeing ourselves -- immobile, unsure, afraid, angry, confused, frustrated. This door had already been opened (on campuses, on tv) and long before Netflix and this series. While we sit back and say "this is irresponsible of Netflix and the producers and the actors," I say, hold on: Look at your role in the series, too -- what are the adults (you, us) still refusing to see? The message of the tapes -- Hannah's reasons why (note: gender) -- is for us (adults) to look in the mirror and question our role. Look at what our kids do to each other because of us.
4
The missing piece for me in the series as well as the dialogue presented at the end of was encouraging adolescents to talk -- to be heard - to connect with each other -- to share what it is they are feeling using words.
As a pediatric hospitalist, I have seen an increase in teenagers attempting suicide since this series has come out. Correlation or causation? It's difficult to ascertain. Regardless, this series concerns me. Each of the three teenagers who attempted suicide this week has watched this series. All of them felt they related to the protagonist and admitted the series (and I quote) "triggers dark feelings and makes them stronger." This is a dangerous series that glamorizes suicide. I suggest it be replaced by a documentary about teenage suicide ...or perhaps a series entitled "13 Reasons Why Not."
7
“That was gross negligence,” Dr. Miller said, and it sends “a dangerous message” that adults don’t care.
As a school teacher I would modify this statement to be, "that adults only care but adults are not effective as dealing with teenage problems in an understanding way." This is the definition of negligent I hear many students charge the adults in their life with.
As a school teacher I would modify this statement to be, "that adults only care but adults are not effective as dealing with teenage problems in an understanding way." This is the definition of negligent I hear many students charge the adults in their life with.
3
The most dangerous message that this show sends is that it is pointless to try and get help from an adult.
7
I feel the criticism directed at this series is misguided, as the intended message seems to be lost on many commenters. Above all I see the main takeaway to be the vilification of our society's indifference and desensitization toward the pain and suffering of others, and our collective failure to recognize the warning signs that accompany depression.
The series clearly highlights the contagious nature of suicide, seen in the guilt/depression inflicted on those named as one of the "13 Reasons"; and as a result those who are named as a "Reason", end up being the true victims in the story, not the villains (Bryce excluded). So I do not understand Dr. Gould's assessment at the end of this article, that suicide contagion is being denied.
The outrage that I felt was more akin to watching a horror movie, screaming at the screen "NO! Don't go in that room! That's the Killer!" But with this show I was screaming "WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL HER THEY LIKE HER HAIRCUT!"
The series shines a light on those ravaged by guilt in the aftermath of a suicide. It gives 13 examples of how someone can claim responsibility for the suicide of another person, while illustrating how that they are entirely not culpable (except for Bryce).
What did feel forced was the counselors over-the-top negligence. But that seemed to just be a metaphor for the epidemic of rape on college campuses;on how rape culture is perpetuated by a lack of institutional response. Which seemed appropriate.
The series clearly highlights the contagious nature of suicide, seen in the guilt/depression inflicted on those named as one of the "13 Reasons"; and as a result those who are named as a "Reason", end up being the true victims in the story, not the villains (Bryce excluded). So I do not understand Dr. Gould's assessment at the end of this article, that suicide contagion is being denied.
The outrage that I felt was more akin to watching a horror movie, screaming at the screen "NO! Don't go in that room! That's the Killer!" But with this show I was screaming "WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL HER THEY LIKE HER HAIRCUT!"
The series shines a light on those ravaged by guilt in the aftermath of a suicide. It gives 13 examples of how someone can claim responsibility for the suicide of another person, while illustrating how that they are entirely not culpable (except for Bryce).
What did feel forced was the counselors over-the-top negligence. But that seemed to just be a metaphor for the epidemic of rape on college campuses;on how rape culture is perpetuated by a lack of institutional response. Which seemed appropriate.
5
Just like the present political situation in which some are pro and others against, it is not possible to achieve complete agreement on the merits of this series, with one exception
namely that all agree what an awful and tragic thing for a teenager to take their on life. Would that every teen had an involved, loving, present parent to
turn to when needed and who was constantly loved and affirmed. While that is not a magic solution it is a strong foundation in times of need
namely that all agree what an awful and tragic thing for a teenager to take their on life. Would that every teen had an involved, loving, present parent to
turn to when needed and who was constantly loved and affirmed. While that is not a magic solution it is a strong foundation in times of need
2
People who were hurt once, they became extremely sensitive to every other little thing happened in their life. So start from here, try to be a person to understand the situation other people are going through and you don't like. Try not to tell other people how to behave to be the "right" way to live their life. Same thing applies to kids. If you don't judge, your kids won't learn to judge stuff they don't like, so other kids won't get bullied in school, so we all get to be who we are. That's what this show is about from my perspective. To me, this show is about anti-bullying, not suicide.
4
Aside from all the problems inherent in the show, it seems irresponsible to not AT LEAST include some resources for young people suffering from depression, suicidal thoughts, bullying, etc. at the beginning and end of the episodes. How hard would that be?
6
Why are we leaving our kids alone when it comes to screens? How many of them have TVs in their rooms? Ipads and iphones at all hours? Start there. Get involved with what your kids are watching and don't let up. I'm not advocating blind censorship but the shrugging after handing an 11 year old an iphone with an instagram account or facebook or or or.... take responsibility for your kids. the "threat" is not them crossing the street by themselves, it's sitting in the media black hole in their own homes. While their parents are wrapped up in their own texting binges. PUT DOWN THE SCREENS AND ENGAGE!
7
What many of the other grownups here seem to be violently rejecting is how accurate the emotional world of "13 Reasons" is for the kids who live in it.
It's not YOUR world, where you like to believe that adults in charge of kids are really there for them; that being a school counselor means your degree and training make you attuned to what kids are trying to tell you; that being a parent with a nice home and adequate resources means you are parenting your kids.
For people saying things like "my child isn't emotionally ready to deal with these things"--but you send your kids to school, right? They're in that world every day. You need to teach them how to deal with the often terrible emotions and hurts inflicted on them, on their friends, by their friends, by the already terribly damaged kids who might end up like Hannah.
Your children already live in the real world. You need to refamiliarize yourself with it and learn to teach them how to survive it well.
It's not YOUR world, where you like to believe that adults in charge of kids are really there for them; that being a school counselor means your degree and training make you attuned to what kids are trying to tell you; that being a parent with a nice home and adequate resources means you are parenting your kids.
For people saying things like "my child isn't emotionally ready to deal with these things"--but you send your kids to school, right? They're in that world every day. You need to teach them how to deal with the often terrible emotions and hurts inflicted on them, on their friends, by their friends, by the already terribly damaged kids who might end up like Hannah.
Your children already live in the real world. You need to refamiliarize yourself with it and learn to teach them how to survive it well.
23
BRAVO!!! Finally, a sensible & thoughtful comment by someone capable to step back and see the show for what it is, without patronising either youngsters or those with mental health problems.
3
Thank you for your comment.
1
Thanks to those who have commented sharing personal insights and painful experiences. Not easy. Very valuable. My 2 cents worth, as a high school English teacher, about the controversy:
As a story, “13 Reasons Why” does not explain depression or educate readers about suicide prevention. Perhaps it should or should deal with depression and suicide more extensively or accurately than it does. Doing so might make it a better story. But the story is effective in accomplishing its purpose which is to depict a social world which might cause depression. ‘Don’t treat people this way’ is Hannah’s message. It’s an important one that the book gets across well. Trigger warnings and family discussions and supervision are good, but it is unfair to reject the story for being the story it is. When I read the book (only part way through the TV series) I didn’t buy Hannah’s suicide because she was so healthy. I accepted her implausible suicide in same spirit in which I accept space ships that travel at light speed in science fiction stories. An accurate depiction of depression and suicide would truly be a whole other story. It seems unfair to criticize “13 Reasons Why” for not telling that story when, given whatever its imperfections and its limitations as a work of fiction, it tells the story it tells so well.
As a story, “13 Reasons Why” does not explain depression or educate readers about suicide prevention. Perhaps it should or should deal with depression and suicide more extensively or accurately than it does. Doing so might make it a better story. But the story is effective in accomplishing its purpose which is to depict a social world which might cause depression. ‘Don’t treat people this way’ is Hannah’s message. It’s an important one that the book gets across well. Trigger warnings and family discussions and supervision are good, but it is unfair to reject the story for being the story it is. When I read the book (only part way through the TV series) I didn’t buy Hannah’s suicide because she was so healthy. I accepted her implausible suicide in same spirit in which I accept space ships that travel at light speed in science fiction stories. An accurate depiction of depression and suicide would truly be a whole other story. It seems unfair to criticize “13 Reasons Why” for not telling that story when, given whatever its imperfections and its limitations as a work of fiction, it tells the story it tells so well.
4
This is idiotic. "Don't treat people this way"? I lost my brother to suicide. He needed to know that this is exactly how people treat each other. He needed to be told to, "Get used to it." He didn't need to commit suicide (he a kid, not a grownup and I don't call kids' suicides even suicides, bc they are just children making a bad, bad decision). He needed to be told suicide was the end of his future.
8
But Dalia, would that have been enough? Wouldn't it be more efficient for society/healthy people to change rather than expecting someone who is suicidal to make better decisions? Dude, a lot of the people who didn't commit suicide in the show were a hot mess too, they needed to change for their own sakes.
What a terrible thing to lose your brother. Take care.
What a terrible thing to lose your brother. Take care.
Yes, idiotic, if you understood me to say anything about your brother or his situation. I think the book's message is 'don't treat people this way' and it's a good one. What the book 'says' about suicide is problematic. You're point that kids can chose suicide through a kind of magical thinking (which is very different from depression) is an important one. I apologize for not thinking of this and for not thinking more about how my comment might be taken.
My daughter is only 11, and I would not permit her to watch this show. So as kids do, she watched a few episodes with my stepson. The show was creating such a buzz among the students in her school the teachers and administrators decided to round table meetings in order to control the discussion and steer it towards something helpful. We were not informed of this and only found out after my daughter came home the other day and told us, because she said the conversations made her feel uncomfortable. I know my child, and she lacks emotional maturity to deal with these kinds of adult concepts and themes. The school felt they were being helpful, but I feel in a way they went too far and should have informed the parents and let them decide if they want their child to participate. I feel that discussions of rape, suicide, death, ect, should happen at home first.
Also, while I have nothing against Netflix or Asher, I think a certain tone-deafness or what Dr. Schwartz described a "one long revenge story" is too be expected when you have the story of a teenage girls agonizing experience being told by a middle-aged man. I know male writers create great female characters all the time, but in this case, not so much. In Hannah we have a victim using her own death as a postmortem toll of revenge. And that is just disturbing and sensationalizes tragedies that real girls/women suffer through all the time.
Also, while I have nothing against Netflix or Asher, I think a certain tone-deafness or what Dr. Schwartz described a "one long revenge story" is too be expected when you have the story of a teenage girls agonizing experience being told by a middle-aged man. I know male writers create great female characters all the time, but in this case, not so much. In Hannah we have a victim using her own death as a postmortem toll of revenge. And that is just disturbing and sensationalizes tragedies that real girls/women suffer through all the time.
7
Hi,
That stinks what happened at your school, I doubt there can be a useful conversation anymore. I agree with you, it should come form you first.
Speaking of which, depending on what's in the water in your area, your daughter is on the doorstep of puberty. Then the bandwidth your voice gets with her shrinks dramatically. When are you planning those conversations with her about suicide, death rape? Good luck! If you have questions before you go in for these talks, I highly recommend Amy Lang's website:
http://birdsandbeesandkids.com
That stinks what happened at your school, I doubt there can be a useful conversation anymore. I agree with you, it should come form you first.
Speaking of which, depending on what's in the water in your area, your daughter is on the doorstep of puberty. Then the bandwidth your voice gets with her shrinks dramatically. When are you planning those conversations with her about suicide, death rape? Good luck! If you have questions before you go in for these talks, I highly recommend Amy Lang's website:
http://birdsandbeesandkids.com
“We did want it to be painful to watch because we wanted it to be very clear that there is nothing — in any way — worthwhile about suicide.”
How absurd to suggest that a production/broadcast team had anything in mind besides selling advertising.
How absurd to suggest that a production/broadcast team had anything in mind besides selling advertising.
8
It's blatantly obvious just from reading about this Netflix show that it is not intended to spark serious conversation or help kids, but just to spark controversy, get viewers, and sensationalize real experiences that people have. In no way do they care about actual depression, suicide, or teens! The revenge plot alone conveys that loud and clear. That ludicrous and juvenile plot-line fits right in with MANY other shows that focus on people getting "revenge" on others who have "wronged" them. This show sounds emotionally and intellectually manipulative and awful. We should all boycott it. That's the only message producers will hear loud and clear.
4
"The National Association of School Psychologists has advised teenagers, who have had suicidal thoughts, to avoid the series entirely."
The misuse of commas in this sentence is unfortunate, rendering a serious statement almost laughable.
The misuse of commas in this sentence is unfortunate, rendering a serious statement almost laughable.
5
the la times gave this series a glowing, rave review and i , an adult, watched it. it bored me. long on angst and stereotype, short on intelligence. it also was overwhelingly depressing, not merely a sad story, but unceasing sadness. morose. the vindictiveness complete and total, permeating every second. nasty people, one after another. ignorant , harmful adults, including counselors and parents. overall, a disgusting production. i can see why vulnerable children and teens, even adults , would be sucked into the morose, helpless atmosphere. and the heroine is a teenage girl, mistreated and over-looked , suffering from medical depression kills herself in a bloody exploitive scene, after hours of dramatic buildup. netflix should be ashamed. ashamed.
7
The critics have got it wrong. This is a responsible, engaging and realistic profile of not only a hyper sensitive teenager with misplaced anger but a realistic portrayal of modern life: stressed out parents and educators with a heavy workload who are grappling and juggling to get through each day. Hindsight truly is 20-20.
8
As a teenager who struggles with depression, I can say that 13 Reasons Why is very scary and hits to close to home for my comfort. However, the statement in the article about the fact that the real cause of suicide is depression is quite true. Very few people understand the distress and utter hopelessness of depression, especially when it occurs in children. However, I do commend the producers for trying to address issues like depression and let children like me know we aren't alone.
16
Feel like talking about suicide with your teen in a positive, enlightening and empowering way? Watch Captain Fantastic instead! In passing you can also talk about sex, rape, religion, health, guns, video games, education and love. Gosh 13 reasons pales in comparaison.
9
Although, I did not find the series entertaining, I felt obliged to watch it when I learned my 14-year-old granddaughter had seen the entire series. In addition, as a psychologist, I like to keep up with the latest trends in entertainment. I find this series no more concerning than many other shows. I believe Netflix added a warning not to perceive the social concern as valid but to cover themselves liability wise. Slenderman, murderous clowns -- now 13 Reasons is the panic of the month.
3
My son killed himself in November 2003 and I watched this show and having a family history of depression I congratulate who ever wrote this series because for the very first time it has been addressed the problems in schools that are so hurting to ones soul .I never read others comments and wont. Although I believe this is the only way one could of not many of the concerns maybe not every one but it's a great start thank you
I know what she felt like and it is one thing after another and you should always encourage build your kids self esteem up careful with your words they cut like a knife
I know what she felt like and it is one thing after another and you should always encourage build your kids self esteem up careful with your words they cut like a knife
7
I have watched the show. It is NOT painful to watch at all as the director claims it is. The suicide scene feels like she is falling asleep into the bath tub with make up on. Her mother grief poorly acted. But most importantly the counselor being one of the reasons why she committed suicide discredits a huge help within the school systems and this is where I see one of the many serious problems this show has. It does glamorize suicide and the message I gathered is "suicide is an option" and it is just not OK. The message one would want to receive is "it is never an option." Never. My sister is still alive by luck I guess. Yes just luck. And so it my children won't watch the film. We have watched just recently another movie where the mother had committed suicide and it gave the same opportunity to discuss suicide without the teen glamour. So no.
6
Is this article about censorship or a heads up to parents and anyone who cares about teens that there are issues about its presentation that could lead to trouble in a teen's life? Some people are taking it as a reason to ban the film, I think it is an opportunity for dialogue and intervention. My teen daughter and I read and shared the book when it was published, and it is very powerful. As a book, I think it was presented more thoughtfully and effectively.
It should not be viewed in isolation, and I agree binge watching without a chance to come down off an emotional high is also a bad idea. Hopefully all the publicity will help lower the chances of that, but as we all know, there will be people who will do that anyway.
It should not be viewed in isolation, and I agree binge watching without a chance to come down off an emotional high is also a bad idea. Hopefully all the publicity will help lower the chances of that, but as we all know, there will be people who will do that anyway.
4
My 13 year old daughter made a serious suicide attempt after reading '13 Reasons Why' last year. While I don't think there is strict is cause and effect, I do believe the book tipped the scale as she was going through a difficult time at school. She has since watched the series. Her perspective is that the book and the series are different. Her words - "Hanna was a more empathetic character in the book. She is not as like-able in the series." It does appear the producers molded the book content to modify the message. Teen suicide is real, it's in our communities and it needs to be discussed. The fact that this series created a level of engagement around the topic is positive. I hope parents, schools and students use it to start a conversation.
4
It's also a very bitter truth that just as we cannot now save every child diagnosed with cancer, we cannot save every young person struggling with mental illness. In many cases we can; in many instances the failure was of responsible adults to be fully responsible for the wellbeing of children in their care.
But that will still leave a small percentage of young people whose pain cannot be alleviated; who will keep trying, themselves, to stop the pain until they succeed. If you have done everything you possibly can, if you have been there but they still slipped away from you, then it is the fault of no one.
But that will still leave a small percentage of young people whose pain cannot be alleviated; who will keep trying, themselves, to stop the pain until they succeed. If you have done everything you possibly can, if you have been there but they still slipped away from you, then it is the fault of no one.
8
How many people dissing the series have actually watched it? I thought it probably did an accurate job of depicting how high school kids can treat each other, how social media can destroy someone over night, how school counselors tip toe around, how kids don't want to open up to counselors when the likely outcome is they'll be bullied more and the bullier will not be punished. Talking with and teaching your kids how to cope with other kids behavior starts at age 3 not when they're 13. I'm sure like the parents in the film, I didn't know the half of what my kids were doing but I was ever watchful over their behavior. Smart phones and social media are the two double-edged swords facing teens now.
10
Hi Nancy,
I am a middle school counselor and just wanted to share with you that my counseling team and I don't "tip-toe around." We help kids every day to learn coping skills and to problem-solve the trials that come their way. In terms of bullying, we help victims learn how to be empowered, and give them tools to manage the aggressor as well as their own emotions. Counselors wouldn't issue discipline to the bully since that is unethical- what if the bully comes to us for counseling? We need them to know we can help them, too. Instead, we would help the child file a report if they wanted an administrator's adult intervention. Most of the time, the strategies we discuss in counseling sessions works, but when it isn't manageable on a kid level, we help them learn who to talk to and how to report. We don't violate a child's confidentiality unless they are hurting themselves, being hurt by someone else, or considering hurting themselves. It's a very valuable job, and I personally have saved numerous lives over the last ten years as a School Counselor. The counselors I work with are the same way. We love kids. We do this job because we care about each and every one of them on a real, human level and would do anything to help - Just wanted to share!
I am a middle school counselor and just wanted to share with you that my counseling team and I don't "tip-toe around." We help kids every day to learn coping skills and to problem-solve the trials that come their way. In terms of bullying, we help victims learn how to be empowered, and give them tools to manage the aggressor as well as their own emotions. Counselors wouldn't issue discipline to the bully since that is unethical- what if the bully comes to us for counseling? We need them to know we can help them, too. Instead, we would help the child file a report if they wanted an administrator's adult intervention. Most of the time, the strategies we discuss in counseling sessions works, but when it isn't manageable on a kid level, we help them learn who to talk to and how to report. We don't violate a child's confidentiality unless they are hurting themselves, being hurt by someone else, or considering hurting themselves. It's a very valuable job, and I personally have saved numerous lives over the last ten years as a School Counselor. The counselors I work with are the same way. We love kids. We do this job because we care about each and every one of them on a real, human level and would do anything to help - Just wanted to share!
16
It is shameless commercial exploitation of the tragedy of suicide. Netflix should be ashamed, but if that were possible, they would not have created 13 Reasons.
4
Suicide is a plague. So is censorship. So is a hysterical reaction to a TV series, when everywhere, every minute of every day, horrible things happen and our children are unavoidably exposed to them.
I'm a lot more disturbed, honestly, by every mainstream film and TV program showing supposedly loving couples coupling on the kitchen counter because the guy comes home randy and slams the gal up against the nearest hard surface, and that really makes her hot.
I'd say this show performs an excellent public service by depicting the suicide in the most horrifically graphic way. As another commenter has noted, far too often we get instead the soft slipping below the surface of the filled bathtub. If someone is vomiting up her guts after seeing Hannah's death, that might be the very best reaction for her.
Everything is commercial. Shakespeare didn't write for money? He didn't distort history to please his Tudor patrons? Goethe didn't need to pay the bills?
This series respects the real lives of kids and the terrible emotions they struggle with. Watch or don't watch. But talk about it with your children, because if they want to watch it they'll find a way how, and in a free society (which is what we want, right?) that is a good thing.
I'm a lot more disturbed, honestly, by every mainstream film and TV program showing supposedly loving couples coupling on the kitchen counter because the guy comes home randy and slams the gal up against the nearest hard surface, and that really makes her hot.
I'd say this show performs an excellent public service by depicting the suicide in the most horrifically graphic way. As another commenter has noted, far too often we get instead the soft slipping below the surface of the filled bathtub. If someone is vomiting up her guts after seeing Hannah's death, that might be the very best reaction for her.
Everything is commercial. Shakespeare didn't write for money? He didn't distort history to please his Tudor patrons? Goethe didn't need to pay the bills?
This series respects the real lives of kids and the terrible emotions they struggle with. Watch or don't watch. But talk about it with your children, because if they want to watch it they'll find a way how, and in a free society (which is what we want, right?) that is a good thing.
8
I watched the series in it's entirety myself and watched the first 6 episodes with my 14 year old. This series runs the entire gambit of teenage emotions experienced in a high school setting and a good number of the episodes were somewhat hard to watch. However, I don't believe the real message of the show was the suicide itself.
What I did notice in the show is that there was little communication between the kids and parents/adults. Parents/adults were concerned about telling the kids what to do (or not listening). Kids were constantly telling their parents/adults , "Nothing" or "I'll tell you later". There was no open and honest communication.
As my 14 year old enters high school, I won't lie and say that one, none, or all of things will happen. However, after seeing the series, what I did reinforce is that if you need to talk, ask questions, or just need someone to listen, I am here 24/7. We will get through this together and nothing is insurmountable.
What I did notice in the show is that there was little communication between the kids and parents/adults. Parents/adults were concerned about telling the kids what to do (or not listening). Kids were constantly telling their parents/adults , "Nothing" or "I'll tell you later". There was no open and honest communication.
As my 14 year old enters high school, I won't lie and say that one, none, or all of things will happen. However, after seeing the series, what I did reinforce is that if you need to talk, ask questions, or just need someone to listen, I am here 24/7. We will get through this together and nothing is insurmountable.
8
I believe you meant "gamut," not "gambit."
3
----
What I did notice in the show is that there was little communication between the kids and parents/adults. Parents/adults were concerned about telling the kids what to do (or not listening). Kids were constantly telling their parents/adults , "Nothing" or "I'll tell you later". There was no open and honest communication.
----
That is how way too many parent-teen relationships are, though.
What I did notice in the show is that there was little communication between the kids and parents/adults. Parents/adults were concerned about telling the kids what to do (or not listening). Kids were constantly telling their parents/adults , "Nothing" or "I'll tell you later". There was no open and honest communication.
----
That is how way too many parent-teen relationships are, though.
1
You guys realize '13 reasons why' is actually based on a book that is available in school libraries.
5
I have read the book and watched the TV series. Completely different beasts.
2
Perhaps many here commenting are deeply disturbed by how utterly clueless and profoundly incompetent the "responsible adults" are in this series. Well, that's the reality far too many of our children must deal with.
Every newspaper article about a bullied child who killed himself/herself includes a list of failures of the authorities to appropriately intervene in time.
What's wrong with showing this graphically? What's wrong with giving kids the relief of knowing they're not alone in having been betrayed? What's wrong with talking about this series everywhere?
My child comes from a genetic cesspool of mental illness on both sides of the family, and before I decided to try to conceive, I made an unbreakable vow to myself that suicide could never again be an option to dealing with pain, even if that pain seemed as unbearable as it had before. And when my child entered adolescence I discussed frankly with him the emotional storms that can complicate growing up; how distress clouds our judgment; that if for some inexplicable reason he might not want to talk about something with me, he should find someone else he trusted--but that suffering to the breaking point in silence was not an option.
Do you talk to your own children about hard things? Do you make clear that you will listen to anything they want to say? Do you make sure you're available when THEY are ready to talk? Dinnertime is usually the worst time for the most meaningful discussions.
Every newspaper article about a bullied child who killed himself/herself includes a list of failures of the authorities to appropriately intervene in time.
What's wrong with showing this graphically? What's wrong with giving kids the relief of knowing they're not alone in having been betrayed? What's wrong with talking about this series everywhere?
My child comes from a genetic cesspool of mental illness on both sides of the family, and before I decided to try to conceive, I made an unbreakable vow to myself that suicide could never again be an option to dealing with pain, even if that pain seemed as unbearable as it had before. And when my child entered adolescence I discussed frankly with him the emotional storms that can complicate growing up; how distress clouds our judgment; that if for some inexplicable reason he might not want to talk about something with me, he should find someone else he trusted--but that suffering to the breaking point in silence was not an option.
Do you talk to your own children about hard things? Do you make clear that you will listen to anything they want to say? Do you make sure you're available when THEY are ready to talk? Dinnertime is usually the worst time for the most meaningful discussions.
29
SCA, thanks for saying this bit:
"I discussed frankly with him the emotional storms that can complicate growing up; how distress clouds our judgment; that if for some inexplicable reason he might not want to talk about something with me, he should find someone else he trusted--but that suffering to the breaking point in silence was not an option.
"Do you talk to your own children about hard things? Do you make clear that you will listen to anything they want to say? Do you make sure you're available when THEY are ready to talk? Dinnertime is usually the worst time for the most meaningful discussions. "
"I discussed frankly with him the emotional storms that can complicate growing up; how distress clouds our judgment; that if for some inexplicable reason he might not want to talk about something with me, he should find someone else he trusted--but that suffering to the breaking point in silence was not an option.
"Do you talk to your own children about hard things? Do you make clear that you will listen to anything they want to say? Do you make sure you're available when THEY are ready to talk? Dinnertime is usually the worst time for the most meaningful discussions. "
2
Catherine, As a grandmother that came close as possible to having lost a grandchild, being in my home for a visit, my finding him in bed, calling 911, doing all I could to help him, I can say "13 Reasons Why" hits the problem on the right call. All parents and I suggest all older students, watch in school with a adult to see how their actions effect other students. Suicide has no certain type of children that consider suicide, there are different reasons as in the "13 Reasons". Bullies, teachers, parents, etc. can have a bearing on the problem of a child that thinks of suicide. Finding out you are gay is a big one in school. The suicide student taunted in school , home, and some churches leads to suicide in some cases. Kids can be vengeful. I say to school officials at any level study how you can prevent behavior of bullies in school. Start out in elem. school. My grandson was at the top of his class in smarts. It can happen to any child.
5
Since adults are telling teens not to watch, you know they will. They are curious and wonder "what's so bad". Invite your teen to watch with you. Talk about it. Invite questions. Make sure you have some answers.
7
Although it is debatable whether it would be beneficial, appropriate or even detrimental for teenagers to watch this, in my opinion they should be required viewing for parents of teenagers and all school personnel.
6
Time to cancel my daughter's Netflix. Thank you for the heads up.
4
'13 reasons why' is actually based on a book that is also available in school libraries, so if you're gonna cancel her Netflix you might as well ban her from the library as well. :-)
1
Leandra, ave you watched the series, which is rated TV-MA (not for children under 17) and includes far more graphic treatments of the storyline, including a completely altered suicide method? There is a difference between reading about a rape, and watching it unfold in all its violence. There's a difference between reading about a girl taking pills to commit suicide, and graphically and painfully slitting her wrists and bleeding out.
3
I may do that too Leandra.
Anybody who does not have a teenager at home going through an emotional rollercoaster as it is already does not need the last straw of a suicide gloryfing series. Vunerable youths, watching this latest abberation of "thoughtful" television
might just be tipped the wrong way in a dark lonely night. Who never had to worry about their kids going through their peer pressure, growing pains and their self worth predicaments to find their place in this smartphone corrupted era, have no clue what this "show" does to them. We are totally appauled by a series like this. Netflix would surely know that this show is being watched by kids secretly under blankets at night, without a "MA" audience around....
Netflix wants to make money with something like this???? Well, we just cancelled our subscription to Netflix.
might just be tipped the wrong way in a dark lonely night. Who never had to worry about their kids going through their peer pressure, growing pains and their self worth predicaments to find their place in this smartphone corrupted era, have no clue what this "show" does to them. We are totally appauled by a series like this. Netflix would surely know that this show is being watched by kids secretly under blankets at night, without a "MA" audience around....
Netflix wants to make money with something like this???? Well, we just cancelled our subscription to Netflix.
4
Boys commit suicide at 4 times the rate (and please get over the statistic that girls attempt it more: this is about who REALLY wants to commit suicide).
When we couch suicide in terms of generalized teen angst (as this show), equally balancing the plight of girls and boys, we lose sight -- in a typically misandrist way, as is common in our matriarchal/sexist society) -- of why boys commit suicide.
They do it, partially, because girls are favored in schools, our society is gynocentric and boys and masculinity is held in disdain as toxic.
We need to tell our boys loudly: "men created almost all of civilization and you should be proud of the accomplishments of masculinity; and men are good. If you wish to learn about the bad things men did, become a Women's Studies Major."
When we couch suicide in terms of generalized teen angst (as this show), equally balancing the plight of girls and boys, we lose sight -- in a typically misandrist way, as is common in our matriarchal/sexist society) -- of why boys commit suicide.
They do it, partially, because girls are favored in schools, our society is gynocentric and boys and masculinity is held in disdain as toxic.
We need to tell our boys loudly: "men created almost all of civilization and you should be proud of the accomplishments of masculinity; and men are good. If you wish to learn about the bad things men did, become a Women's Studies Major."
5
It seems to me that the concern about this show is that it might negatively influence a vulnerable adolescent, gender irrelevant. I am a school counselor and I just held a class with all boys on 13 reasons, suicide, depression, anxiety and bullying. These 8th graders either watched the series or knew all about it because of friends, and were eager to discuss it. They were insightful, thoughtful, and made points I hadn't thought of...but none felt the topic was irrelevant to them as young men. And for what it's worth, I work in a section of the Bronx that is characterized by poverty, gangs, crime and people whose culture still embraces patriarchy in all of its forms. Men ARE good. That doesn't mean that they don't also suffer from the mental health issues, sexual assault or bullying that can contribute to suicide.
5
No amy, men are not favored in schools or STEM education. Young women do far better in school than young men. More women in college than men and more women are in med school than men and same with law schools . There are tons of incentives and scholarships to draw women into STEM fields. Colleges are bending over backwards to support young women in STEM. finally, suicide is a problem primarily for young men not young women. I live in a poor community. We gave had five suicides in our school system in @ 13 years. ALL BOYS. youngest was a fourth grader who hung himself. Most recent was a high school senior three weeks ago. Our school is small; we only graduate 100 students a year. Please educate yourself.
This is certainly a revenge-fantasy film. A kid blames 13 others for why she takes her own life, violently and painfully, in the genre of a snuff film, and wants everybody to suffer long after she is dead. No, this is clearly about Netflix making money, enticing teens and tweens to binge watch outside of their parents' view (if your kid has an account, you might be able to monitor, but if your kid has a friend who has an account, good luck with that.) I'm appalled -- I've seen the series and many of the teens I know agree that the messages are "off" -- the gratuitous violence (the icky way she self mutilates; Clay and Bryce fight; the rape scene; the thick goo of guilt heaved upon others.) The message is clear: You all wronged me and I killed myself to make you suffer. I agree with many writers who say a documentary would have gotten the talk going without all the horrific imagery and plot holes. And shame on Selena Gomez, someone who should've understood the danger of this remake of a less startling book.
6
This series is entertainment. Teens see something in it that resonates. That could be the difficulty they have in relationships, the social media challenges, the disturbing end results of drinking and drug use like date rape. Or maybe they are just hooked by the mystery built into the series.
This is giving us an opportunity. We can connect with teens and reach them with helpful, life saving information if it resonates with them. Not Alone is a documentary conceived of by a teen who lost her best friend to suicide. She listens to teens who have experienced mental illness, self harm, thoughts of suicide, suicide attempts and getting help. This film does not have any ADULT faces or voices telling teens what to think. It allows the teens who have experienced it to educate and commiserate with teens who are also experiencing mental illness. The strength in this documentary is that every word of it comes from real teens. They encourage teens to get help. www.not-alone.live Go to this website, watch the trailer and see the film. Then watch it with your teen or tween.
This is giving us an opportunity. We can connect with teens and reach them with helpful, life saving information if it resonates with them. Not Alone is a documentary conceived of by a teen who lost her best friend to suicide. She listens to teens who have experienced mental illness, self harm, thoughts of suicide, suicide attempts and getting help. This film does not have any ADULT faces or voices telling teens what to think. It allows the teens who have experienced it to educate and commiserate with teens who are also experiencing mental illness. The strength in this documentary is that every word of it comes from real teens. They encourage teens to get help. www.not-alone.live Go to this website, watch the trailer and see the film. Then watch it with your teen or tween.
Netflix is just looking for viewers and profits. If a show glamorizing suicide gets them there, clearly they are willing to film it. That's awful. I'm glad I cancelled my membership a while back. In real life, nobody ever "won" a struggle by killing themselves. That's a ridiculous argument to make. People who commit suicide are always failures, and never heroes. I say this not to cause pain to families of past suicides, but to send a message to those who might be considering snuffing out their own lives. Suicide won't help you in any way, and it will cause great pain to those who care for you.
5
The rape scenes were far more disturbing than her ultimate suicide.
And any teenager can understand that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
And any teenager can understand that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
2
Ingnatius - you are spot on about the scene in the hot tub. Extremely disturbing and haunting. That scene bothered me more than the entire series. It still bothers me.
I respectfully disagree with your second statement in as much as any INDIVIDUAL (not just teenagers) can understand that suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Whenever a person is hurting to the degree of contemplating suicide, dying is internalized as a relief and release to that pain.
7
Absolutely not. My husband is a therapist on the brain unit of a rehab center where children and teen who have attempted to commit suicide go through intense therapy to regain what they have lost. They are blind, paralyzed, in a vegetative state, with memory lapses and for the ones who ends up with a someone intact brain they will all tell you this "I never thought of the permanence of my action" NEVER.
3
Almost every complaint I have seen about this show is something that would have ultimately prevented the suicide. If the councilor did his job right, then it would have been prevented. But if you pay attention, Mr Porter (the counselor) flat out lies when asked if he had met with Hannah and he says he only talked to her about college.
And to me, the tapes were more of a vehicle to tell the story than to place actual blame. Never once did I get the impression that she was trying to "show them" or get back at them. She killed her self because she felt she had no value to anyone. The only person I think she wanted to get back at was her rapist, maybe hoping the tapes would be used to bring him to justice.
And I don't think the show glorifies suicide. Most times when you see someone slit their wrists in a movie, it's a quiet affair when the person just drifts of to sleep one last time. This showed it as the painful, scary event it is. And then it shows the very authentic reactions of her parents finding her, and the lasting effects the suicide has on their lives in the weeks following.
Then if you look at the many different topics the show addresses so very effectively. I don't think children she be watching it alone, but I would recommend every parent watch it and then decide if it's something they should watch with their child.
And everyone needs a friend like Tony.
And to me, the tapes were more of a vehicle to tell the story than to place actual blame. Never once did I get the impression that she was trying to "show them" or get back at them. She killed her self because she felt she had no value to anyone. The only person I think she wanted to get back at was her rapist, maybe hoping the tapes would be used to bring him to justice.
And I don't think the show glorifies suicide. Most times when you see someone slit their wrists in a movie, it's a quiet affair when the person just drifts of to sleep one last time. This showed it as the painful, scary event it is. And then it shows the very authentic reactions of her parents finding her, and the lasting effects the suicide has on their lives in the weeks following.
Then if you look at the many different topics the show addresses so very effectively. I don't think children she be watching it alone, but I would recommend every parent watch it and then decide if it's something they should watch with their child.
And everyone needs a friend like Tony.
4
Do you really expect to be able to censor your way to perfect mental health for our children? To protect them from every insidious idea? Do you forbid them from reading the news online or from turning on the TV at all--in case breaking news of another massacre somewhere intrudes on the rainbows of fairyland?
You can take away the awful mystique here, if that's what frightens you, by talking about it with your children. Because they'll watch it no matter how hard you try to prevent it.
We're already trying to suppress every single idea that makes someone, somewhere uncomfortable even for a nanosecond. Not exactly the way to build hardy children.
You can take away the awful mystique here, if that's what frightens you, by talking about it with your children. Because they'll watch it no matter how hard you try to prevent it.
We're already trying to suppress every single idea that makes someone, somewhere uncomfortable even for a nanosecond. Not exactly the way to build hardy children.
4
As a parent, I am sick and tired of my children being used for profits. The producers spew this into the world, looking to earn a buck, and leave sad kids and desperate parents in the wake. Where is the accountability? In the neoliberal reality, all we can do is use our "consumer power" to stop buying this trash. So where is the movement to cancel our Netflix accounts? Are American children worth it? Sadly, not likely.
7
Fully agree with you, we did CANCEL! Time for Netflix and their likes to know that there is a red line.....
2
As a consumer of, and advocate for, those with mental illness, and a person who has known too many people who have taken their own lives, I know that suicide Us a permanent solution to a temporary problem and that many many teenagers just can't see that.
I was gutted after watching the final episode. Maybe that's because I'm a parent. I did not think it glorified suicide. Maybe that's because I'm not a teenager. I will say that a couple of girls who had bullied my daughter sought her out after watching this and apologized. Maybe they were worried about karma. Or maybe something got through to them. In either case, it made them think. And if it makes a few other people think, the show may have served its purpose.
9
I'm a huge fan of Netflix original dramas. This one? A thousand reasons I won't even glance at it. Nor should anyone else. There is never a good reason to take one's life. Even if it seems like the only alternative at some point, what if you're wrong? What if 10, 20 or even 2 years later one is happier than one ever imagined possible while standing at the abyss? Or, even, mildly content?
Not worth it. Repeat. Not worth it. And there is absolutely NO reason to dramatize or glorify suicide in any way. The Great Adventure it is not.
Not worth it. Repeat. Not worth it. And there is absolutely NO reason to dramatize or glorify suicide in any way. The Great Adventure it is not.
5
Rape is not entertainment. Depressed, suicidal, self-harming teens are not entertainment. This is equivalent to rubbernecking at a car wreck. We live in a sick society made up of sick voyeurs. This is not education, it's exploitation. Viewers are complicit. Well done, producers. Well done, viewers.
10
Any show that romanticizes Teen Suicide is abhorrent, intolerable and a menace to Society. To borrow an old phrase: "Have you no decency, Sir/Madam?" And add rot that Humanity?
Boycott any product that is, was or will be advertised on that bain against society!
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
Boycott any product that is, was or will be advertised on that bain against society!
https://thetruthoncommonsense.com
3
They should just pull the show. And bring back the 5 star ratings.
5
What's important is to arrive alive at the next stage of life.
4
Was anybody else bothered by fact that all the actors were flawless and beautiful? No acne, no chubby or overweight teenagers, no normal/average and god forbid kind of unattractive and awkward people in the whole series. Even the "freaks" were perfect. I know it's entertainment but that bothered me deeply.
4
You do know that it's television, right?
"The good are rewarded, the bad punished. That's why we call it fiction."
"The good are rewarded, the bad punished. That's why we call it fiction."
I agree. And it doesn't have to be that way. Watch some European films. Hollywood for all its creativity is full of conformity.
1
I haven't sen this series. But, it sounds like good intent, lousy execution. In making a book into a movie much is ALWAYS lost.
When Hollywood decides to produce movies for young people they should consider adding that discussion at the end of the show/film or at critical points in the film.
There are plenty of parents who believe the suicide myths and don't know how to respond to, or even identify the red flags. They would benefit from discussion segments.
Suicide, sexual assault, dating violence and bullying are topics that TV/movies NEED to approach carefully and responsibly because the end result can so often be either suicide, homicide or both.
The counselor who didn't assess for suicide is more common than not. Pay attention to small clues. Ask if you are not sure what is meant. You aren't going to "plant" the idea in a kid's head if you ask if they've thought about hurting themselves.
If the answer is yes, then ask if they have a plan and how would they do it, what would they use?
People who have a plan and know what tool they would use to kill themselves have clearly given suicide more than a fleeting thought. Next you find out if they have access to the tools/method. Access increases the likelihood of an attempt and requires seeking professional help. Even if they don't have access, they may seek and secure access.
Try to get them to the nearest hospital emergency room for assessment. If they refuse, report to law enforcement & as for a safety check.
When Hollywood decides to produce movies for young people they should consider adding that discussion at the end of the show/film or at critical points in the film.
There are plenty of parents who believe the suicide myths and don't know how to respond to, or even identify the red flags. They would benefit from discussion segments.
Suicide, sexual assault, dating violence and bullying are topics that TV/movies NEED to approach carefully and responsibly because the end result can so often be either suicide, homicide or both.
The counselor who didn't assess for suicide is more common than not. Pay attention to small clues. Ask if you are not sure what is meant. You aren't going to "plant" the idea in a kid's head if you ask if they've thought about hurting themselves.
If the answer is yes, then ask if they have a plan and how would they do it, what would they use?
People who have a plan and know what tool they would use to kill themselves have clearly given suicide more than a fleeting thought. Next you find out if they have access to the tools/method. Access increases the likelihood of an attempt and requires seeking professional help. Even if they don't have access, they may seek and secure access.
Try to get them to the nearest hospital emergency room for assessment. If they refuse, report to law enforcement & as for a safety check.
2
Netflix should be bookending each episode with content that can't be skipped providing info on mental illness and what to do if you or someone you know is having thoughts of suicide, including hotline numbers. Please tweet them @netflix asking them to do the responsible thing!
2
Yes- it is good and necessary to talk about difficult topics, including teen suicide. No - this series is not all that helpful in that effort. The framework is not suicide prevention, treatment, or understanding but rather a twisted legitimization of suicide as a way reclaim your voice and your power. This is an extremely alluring motivation for teens who are in the depths of depression, isolation, and pain and who want most of all for someone to listen to them and to find a way to deal with the injustice that is an inevitable part of life. This series can evoke discussion, but it would be best to do so in a group, where other voices can help mediate the messages and discount suicide as a way to make people listen to you. The premise that suicide can be used to "send a message" (tapes or otherwise) is especially dangerous because taking your life does just the opposite, it silences your voice and in its wake, projects the pain and isolation an individual feels onto parents, family and entire communities... sometimes for generations.
5
Art is a mirror, not a hammer. Creators intentionally create discomfort and look where it's gotten us this time: a national discussion and an article in the Times about a topic no one wants to discuss.
Bravo, Netflix.
To those worried about the young people in your life being pushed over the edge by a TV show, you should be spending every waking moment with them, not skulking around news sites posting commentary that helps no one, least of all your loved one.
Bravo, Netflix.
To those worried about the young people in your life being pushed over the edge by a TV show, you should be spending every waking moment with them, not skulking around news sites posting commentary that helps no one, least of all your loved one.
6
Is depression really treatable?
1
Yes it is Sara.
4
Those in music talk about "fixing it in the mix," which means that one can go back and make changes before releasing something. Given that Netflix owns and streams this, maybe they can add a few scenes so that the more troubling concerns and criticisms are addressed. There's likely still time before it comes out on DVD.
If not, the culture can "fix it" with articles like this and discussions with children who are likely to watch/at risk. Thanks to NYTimes for the coverage!
If not, the culture can "fix it" with articles like this and discussions with children who are likely to watch/at risk. Thanks to NYTimes for the coverage!
1
Sex ed and suicide ed are best left to trained professionals with complex degrees and loving parents, not Hollywood. Kids go off on the smallest provocations and need perpetual reality checks. In so many ways, the teen years are a time of mass delusion. Subject matter in volatile areas must be clear and vetted for endless boundaries. The show does not intend to be irresponsible, but this show should be pulled.
3
I suffer from depression and my aunt committed suicide, so these kinds of dramatizations hit very close to home. I will say that for someone who's depressed and may be fixated on suicide already, a show like this could be dangerously provocative. A lot of care and responsibility needs to be taken with such sensitive subject matter since the consequences could be catastrophic and irreversible. Instead of passively watching, spend some time with a friend or family member in need who can benefit your support. It may make a life changing difference.
2
Having recently watched this, the main thing I took away was the need for us all to treat each other with respect and gentleness. To hold ourselves to a higher standard. I felt the message was, Be careful with your words or actions - you never know what impact they may have to someone who is really struggling. In particular to avoid gossip, lying, or shaming others - even when its the easy thing to do. In a world where many of our interactions are not face-to-face, it can be easy to feel that there are not consequences to our actions. I think the development of many characters was their slow, imperfect acceptance of their culpability in Hannah's death - accepting that their thoughtless, sometimes cruel, actions had a terrible consequence. So that's what I thought the show was about.
That said, my perspective is that of someone who has not had thoughts of self-harm. Looking at it from that perspective, I can definitely see why it's important to be very careful about who this show is accessible to. I can see why it may be harmful and dangerous to those who are struggling with thoughts of self-harm - and loved ones should be very careful about exposing the vulnerable to this show (easier said than done, I know). But I still think that '13 reasons' is a challenging and sobering series that can inspire the rest of us to be better, more careful, and defend the vulnerable.
That said, my perspective is that of someone who has not had thoughts of self-harm. Looking at it from that perspective, I can definitely see why it's important to be very careful about who this show is accessible to. I can see why it may be harmful and dangerous to those who are struggling with thoughts of self-harm - and loved ones should be very careful about exposing the vulnerable to this show (easier said than done, I know). But I still think that '13 reasons' is a challenging and sobering series that can inspire the rest of us to be better, more careful, and defend the vulnerable.
3
I would have found this increasing my suicidal ideation when I was a teen. I was triggered by the line "suicide is painless, it brings on many changes." Teen years are tumultuous, unpredictable, emotionally charged, and full of angst. It doesn't take much to trigger, which was the complaint about death metal. I believe the subject needs to be addressed, but if you have a child who is vulnerable, then this show needs to have parental or adult feedback.
1
A lot of criticism can be leveled at this show: for starters, how likely is it that gorgeous, lovely "Hannah Baker" would be the target of bullying. Bullying usually applies to people who don't conform, not to model-like statuesque beauties. That being said, what's wrong with showing how the behavior of teens to each other can cause so much distress that suicide seems like the best option. As for the health practitioners who are unhappy because the counselor acts inadequately: ask yourselves really how effective this kind of counseling is likely to be! And how often this kind of brush off actually takes place. No one has a magic wand, no matter how many degrees are hanging on the wall.
4
As a school counselor, I have definitely done some soul searching, wondering if there may have been a student in my office that I was not fully present for, or might have missed a clue or two. I hope not. I do know that I have been involved in seeking urgent emergency care for students who I determined to be at risk. You are right, a typical school counselor can not provide the therapy required to address this type of serious mental health issue. What we can do, and what we are ethically required to do, is make sure that a student in crisis is connected to a support system that can adequately, and hopefully effectively, address his or her needs.
4
The show seriously and negatively affected my child. We watched two episodes together and discussed them and I thought she was ok. But then she went to a friend's house and binged watch a few more episodes and basically fell to pieces. I took her to a therapist who was well aware of the show and insisted that my child vow only to watch it with me. Since that meeting, my child has demonstrated no interest in seeing it again. My child is 13: all the kids in her Middle School claim to be watching it. Parents, do check in and find out if your child/ren have seen it or plan to; if so, try to discourage them. I detest censorship but this show seems wrong-headed and dangerous for middle schoolers. High schoolers probably will have an easier way to navigate it. But even then, I think a parent should watch it with them.
2
On a practical note. Netflix has parental control capabilities that enable any concerned parent the opportunity to limit access to this show and/or any other they feel might be inappropriate for their children. Unfortunate that the nurse in the article hadn't availed herself of this feature to avoid the trauma that viewing this show caused her daughter.
2
I've only read about 30 of the comments, but I'm surprised not to read about Safe2Tell, SOS, Eric Day (www.liveyourmyth.org) or any other proactive ways that middle schools put in place so that distressed students don't feel alone. It's the isolation and loneliness that increase suicide risk. Human to human connection decreases the risk. And while we mourn over teen suicide, please don't forget that adult suicides are more frequent and affect young people reply as well.
"Hours before her death, Hannah goes to see the school counselor, hints that a senior assaulted her, and cryptically says, her eyes welling with tears, that “I need everything to stop, people, life.” He hands her tissues, but doesn’t conduct a suicide-risk assessment or consider hospitalization."
The tipping point in that scene which was not mentioned in this article is that the counselor said that since the person who assaulted her was a senior, he would be graduating in a few weeks and she wouldn't have to see him any longer around school. Instead of doing a suicide-risk assessment, the counselor pretty much dismissed her feelings, not to mention the sexual assault. So many suicides are committed because of a tipping point like this one. Often times it is a case of many, many complex issues colliding to the point where the individual is overwhelmed and just can't do it any longer. Life, relationships, everything becomes just too hard. This program does an excellent job of portraying the build up of what caused this young gal's suicide. There are varying sides of this argument of whether this show can help or hurt someone who even contemplates such a final act. Asking the right questions and more importantly, really LISTENING to the individual can make a big difference. Unless a person has been down this painful road, it is extremely difficult to understand the complex dynamics. It is a heart wrenching ordeal and my heart breaks for anyone encountering it.
42
The guidance counselor also asks her
"Did you do something with a boy and now you regret it?" After she's been raped.
Completely believable.
"Did you do something with a boy and now you regret it?" After she's been raped.
Completely believable.
4
My 17 year old niece made a very astute observation about the difference between the book and the series. She said that the book was an eye opening experience that showed both what might cause a young person to commit suicide along with the aftermath as the impact is felt by those left behind especially those whose actions influenced the decision to commit suicide. On the other hand she felt that the Netflix series glorified suicide without the depth of the book. She's really bothered that this series may encourage copycat behavior among her peers.
I suspect that Netflix tried to Hollywood this up and missed a real opportunity to address something that our young people deal with in ways previous generations haven't experienced. Technology is great but it's made it easier for bullies to torture their victims. Rape also is something this generation is really struggling against as we learn all the different ways our schools put the well-being of the abuser ahead of the victim.
What a shame that this series has become a cause for concern rather than a tool to reach at risk young people. Some things are meant to be taken seriously even if that ruins the mood.
I suspect that Netflix tried to Hollywood this up and missed a real opportunity to address something that our young people deal with in ways previous generations haven't experienced. Technology is great but it's made it easier for bullies to torture their victims. Rape also is something this generation is really struggling against as we learn all the different ways our schools put the well-being of the abuser ahead of the victim.
What a shame that this series has become a cause for concern rather than a tool to reach at risk young people. Some things are meant to be taken seriously even if that ruins the mood.
22
My dear ones, pay no attention to this. It is hard to get through middle and high school, I know. It seems like the popular kids will always be so, that the mean jerks will always block you and run you down. But you will leave them behind in your dust. You are destined for better things than those whose lives peak in high school. Know yourself; you are strong and talented beyond these fools' recognition. Aim high, and never let the nasties get you down. We your fellow travelers are waiting for you here in the wider world to take your place in the loving service of your future, your goals and your citizenship.
Signed, Been there, made out the other side.
Signed, Been there, made out the other side.
48
Well done, Blue state, well done.
3
You couldn't have said better my friend. I wish you post could be spread to all the school kids. It will mean a lot to them, make their life easier. I know the feeling, and also thankfully comes out at the other end right and shine
3
Admittedly, I've not seen this show, but from what I've read this show does seem to portray the suicide as the result of external forces working on the main character. I've known a number of people in my life with mental health issues and suicidal thoughts, and I can say with great certainly that the external forces in most cases play a supporting role in the issues they face - the main role are mental health problems, which like any sort of health problems need to be addressed with the help of competent professionals. I'm really uncomfortable with anything that represents a suicide as a result of some other persons actions. Admittedly, this comment might just be uninformed hand-wringing, but I think Dr. Schwartz (quoted in the article) sums it up best when he says that on matters such as this "The missteps are high stakes". We should be extremely careful with how suicide and mental illness are portrayed in our entertainment.
11
Obviously this is a tough subject matter. It's one story, and the girl killed herself, so clearly things went awry. This is not portrayed as a "good" example of how to handle suicidal people, nor do I think it glorifies suicide. It's shines a light on many difficult issues and is generating discussion where previously discussions were limited. It doesn't hit all issues, inclusive of mental health, which many have pointed out. That doesn't, however, make it a failure. We are all talking about it, so I think the goal has been accomplished. Be more aware, do something, say something.
As far as it being triggering, there are glaring and well placed trigger warnings. For people in a dark place, this is probably not the best to watch. It's a heavy show, and that is just common sense. That doesn't mean it shouldn't have been made. It's not always easy to confront the things that challenge us, but it's all the more reason for us to get them out in the open. Teen bullying and suicide will remain a growing epidemic until we address it head on. I applaud what the show has tried to accomplish and I think they largely succeeded.
I think this is a great show for parents to watch with their teens to foster conversation and education in doing so together. The best way to arm your child against depression and suicide is to talk about it and open that line of communication, trust and understanding.
We need to continue producing media like this that generate positive discussion.
As far as it being triggering, there are glaring and well placed trigger warnings. For people in a dark place, this is probably not the best to watch. It's a heavy show, and that is just common sense. That doesn't mean it shouldn't have been made. It's not always easy to confront the things that challenge us, but it's all the more reason for us to get them out in the open. Teen bullying and suicide will remain a growing epidemic until we address it head on. I applaud what the show has tried to accomplish and I think they largely succeeded.
I think this is a great show for parents to watch with their teens to foster conversation and education in doing so together. The best way to arm your child against depression and suicide is to talk about it and open that line of communication, trust and understanding.
We need to continue producing media like this that generate positive discussion.
12
The show is primarily targeted at young adults. While some commenters easily argue it's not going to cause someone to commit suicide who wasn't thinking of it may be true, the people we should be worried about are those vulnerable teens who have contemplated it or had those thoughts who are watching.
I watched and I do think the show glamorized it. I personally have had fleeting thoughts as a teen and young adult and honestly when you are in a dark, vulnerable place it does not take a lot to sway you. There were almost no postive messages and certainly no suggestions or hope or advice on how to deal with it during all 13 episodes. Infact I thought it was a sick addition to have another teen shoot himself at the end with no follow up or seeming purpose to the show, again proving what people are concerned about it copycats. I was so disappointed in the show and message considering the intended audience.
I watched and I do think the show glamorized it. I personally have had fleeting thoughts as a teen and young adult and honestly when you are in a dark, vulnerable place it does not take a lot to sway you. There were almost no postive messages and certainly no suggestions or hope or advice on how to deal with it during all 13 episodes. Infact I thought it was a sick addition to have another teen shoot himself at the end with no follow up or seeming purpose to the show, again proving what people are concerned about it copycats. I was so disappointed in the show and message considering the intended audience.
14
They never said the other student shot himself. Only that he had been shot. And the message of the show was very clearly stated at the end. "We have to find a way to treat each other better".
It was a show about what led to this girl's suicide, not how she almost committed suicide. What they show is that Hannah was more important to many other people than she believed. They show behind the scenes that Hannah herself was not perfect.
It was a show about what led to this girl's suicide, not how she almost committed suicide. What they show is that Hannah was more important to many other people than she believed. They show behind the scenes that Hannah herself was not perfect.
The problem with the show is that it makes it seem like there are no effective alternatives to suicide. It sends the message that adults are useless, peers are cruel, and the only solution is to die. As a school counselor in a middle school, I find this message alarming. We don't want our young people to suffer in silence because they might see no other way. We don't want them to turn to risky behaviors when they are struggling. We want them to seek support. But they won't if they feel it's useless. I know many are brushing this off as hysteria, or an overly "PC" reaction, because after all, we had this show or that book growing up. What those people are failing to grasp is that now these things become viral, and in what seems like an instant, the whole teenaged world is immersed in a series like 13 Reasons Why. It is not unlike mass propaganda, and therefore needs to be counteracted by parents, educators and mental health professionals.
31
And for some, there are no effective alternatives, adult intervention notwithstanding. Adolescents are most prone to peer pressure and peer cruelty, and a few won't make it out of those woods. One size doesn't fit all.
Adults ARE useless and peers ARE cruel ... when you're a fragile teen. Who hasn't suffered and yet found alternatives to suicide - most of us. I watched with my 16 y.o. and found the teen social politics accurate (and the same as when I was that age, now long ago).
Hannah's "set up" of friends and others who hurt and disappointed her, I found cruelly, narcissistically passive-aggressive, a way to justify and glorify her premeditated choice rather than seek options to dealing with her pain; to leave others behind helplessly hurting. She turned her self-loathing onto others. This separated me from the character.
She could have lived a lifetime recording her hurts and grievances. Many of us have had more than 13 reasons why. The ONE reason to live is a good place to start to cultivate the mental/emotional foundation to endure life's hurts and disappointments. And honesty.
Hannah's "set up" of friends and others who hurt and disappointed her, I found cruelly, narcissistically passive-aggressive, a way to justify and glorify her premeditated choice rather than seek options to dealing with her pain; to leave others behind helplessly hurting. She turned her self-loathing onto others. This separated me from the character.
She could have lived a lifetime recording her hurts and grievances. Many of us have had more than 13 reasons why. The ONE reason to live is a good place to start to cultivate the mental/emotional foundation to endure life's hurts and disappointments. And honesty.
I have experience with suicide as a healthcare provider and as an attempter.
What I have learned: suicide hotlines and all current efforts at suicide prevention have not budged the suicide rates down. The current standard of treatment for people who are dealing with suicidality result in major life problems which many are unable to overcome: school expulsion, career derailment, financial ruin, loss of family and friends, loss of housing - you name it, and it's gone. Emergency department staff love to treat physical trauma and hate dealing with mental distress - often to the extent that they retaliate against patients. The overriding efforts of incarcerating/committing, humiliating and intrusively observing distressed people in the name of safety only keeps the people doing those things safe. The biggest risk factor for completed suicides is a previous hospitalization for suicidality - people despairing after learning that there is no help for their distress.
Addressing underlying causes of the extreme distress and the unbearableness of it is what's entirely lacking. With emotional pain, we don't touch the afflicted, we intrude, confine and punish with sanctions.
Instead, we must open our hearts, our minds and our ears and invite people to share their concerns, their fears, and their struggles so that they never get to the point of experiencing unbearable distress. That's what's missing in suicide prevention and treatment.
We can, and we must all do better.
What I have learned: suicide hotlines and all current efforts at suicide prevention have not budged the suicide rates down. The current standard of treatment for people who are dealing with suicidality result in major life problems which many are unable to overcome: school expulsion, career derailment, financial ruin, loss of family and friends, loss of housing - you name it, and it's gone. Emergency department staff love to treat physical trauma and hate dealing with mental distress - often to the extent that they retaliate against patients. The overriding efforts of incarcerating/committing, humiliating and intrusively observing distressed people in the name of safety only keeps the people doing those things safe. The biggest risk factor for completed suicides is a previous hospitalization for suicidality - people despairing after learning that there is no help for their distress.
Addressing underlying causes of the extreme distress and the unbearableness of it is what's entirely lacking. With emotional pain, we don't touch the afflicted, we intrude, confine and punish with sanctions.
Instead, we must open our hearts, our minds and our ears and invite people to share their concerns, their fears, and their struggles so that they never get to the point of experiencing unbearable distress. That's what's missing in suicide prevention and treatment.
We can, and we must all do better.
29
Beautiful -- your wrap-up paragraph is the key.
4
I believe chronic underemployment or unemployment among adults and the resulting financial stresses has to be a leading cause for suicide or drug/alcohol abuse among adults, particularly those of us over 45/40. I know I've occ been tempted but I've had enough therapy to know how to pull myself out of this mindset. But nothing is going to change the fact that I've got nothing to retire on and will probably lose my home soon. Oh well...
Anyone who thinks that complaining about this TV series is simply political correctness run amok needs to understand that - in teenagers - the frontal lobe and the impulsiveness and the feelings that drastic action must be taken - that frontal lobe is not fully formed yet. Those crying "PC" would throw those teens under the bus, literally.
Moreover, the show's message that an adult would not stop a child from committing suicide is the most cruel, heartless and evil message that any kind of "entertainment" could send out - not only to our young people but to anyone in despair, who may not understand that their despair could only be temporary, or could be alleviated with therapy and other interventions. Death is permanent, life is a choice that sometimes people need support to make.
Moreover, the show's message that an adult would not stop a child from committing suicide is the most cruel, heartless and evil message that any kind of "entertainment" could send out - not only to our young people but to anyone in despair, who may not understand that their despair could only be temporary, or could be alleviated with therapy and other interventions. Death is permanent, life is a choice that sometimes people need support to make.
21
The frontal lobe does not mature in girls until age 24; boys, age 26. Teens are far from a mature frontal lobe, and are vulnerable to teen angst, loneliness, bullying etc. One friend can make a difference, just one. I remember reaching out to a very pretty freshman who was being bullied; my best friend and I invited her to sit with us at lunch, and to walk with us to the gym. The bullying stopped. The same thing happened in grade school; I went to a rural school and there was a dust bowl family who actually lived in a box car in a field. Kids threw rocks at them on the way home; my grandfather told me to cross the road and walk with them. I did. The rock throwing stopped; I don't know if that was because my grandfather was a large, and influential man, and the rock throwers were intimidated by that. I do know that the rock throwing stopped. So, it can take just one person to make a big difference. Be that one person.
8
Twin Peaks, which deals with the perverse murder of a popular high school girl, came out in 1990 when I was in my 20s. It was groundbreaking TV, beautifully produced, and so creative. I would have binge watched if I could have back then. But in the intervening years, I had a daughter, and watched her struggle with sexually aggressive boys and bullying I could have never imagined back in my youth. Things are incredibly different for teens these days.
And now Twin Peaks is back, and I cannot watch the show. The thought of making artful, sensational entertainment out of a young woman's murder is grotesque and exploitative to me. But it took my own painful experiences to have this perspective.
So I think people who have never had suicidal feelings, or had a loved one struggle with them, don't understand what kind of fire 13 Reasons is playing with. I've seen posts on Facebook where teens have said to each other, DO NOT watch this show, especially not alone, if you have thought of suicide or struggle with depression. Where they have said they started to watch it and wished they hadn't. Well-intentioned or not, the producers are playing with fire. Kudos to people like Lisa Brady, or Paris Jackson, who are sounding the warnings.
And now Twin Peaks is back, and I cannot watch the show. The thought of making artful, sensational entertainment out of a young woman's murder is grotesque and exploitative to me. But it took my own painful experiences to have this perspective.
So I think people who have never had suicidal feelings, or had a loved one struggle with them, don't understand what kind of fire 13 Reasons is playing with. I've seen posts on Facebook where teens have said to each other, DO NOT watch this show, especially not alone, if you have thought of suicide or struggle with depression. Where they have said they started to watch it and wished they hadn't. Well-intentioned or not, the producers are playing with fire. Kudos to people like Lisa Brady, or Paris Jackson, who are sounding the warnings.
49
You know how many movies and TV shows there've been with a dead narrator who continues to "live" in the dead zone, looking cool and having relationships and making death seem not very bad at all? I mean, even surviving murder, so to speak.
Did people get hysterical that vulnerable children might get the idea that death isn't, you know, permanent?
If kids are calling home from college crying about this, then they need to be on meds and their parents need to talk to them about real life and its complexities (which maybe they should have done while the kids were still in high school).
When has life ever been easy? In my day we were terrified that boyfriends would flunk out and end up in Vietnam. Girls have always been raped (boys too); people have always struggled with sexual identities and the awful transition from childhood (which was never all that great for a lot of us) into the different, sometimes worse stresses of adulthood, and people have been committing suicide forever. The grieving family and friends left behind will blame everything and anything they can--that's a human reaction normal in tragedy.
This is a TV show. Based on a book. Many kids have already read the latter, otherwise no one would have bothered filming it.
A nasty clerk in the convenience store can trigger your vulnerable child. You can't protect kids from life. You can be there when they need you, you can keep at them until they tell you what troubles them when you sense a problem.
Did people get hysterical that vulnerable children might get the idea that death isn't, you know, permanent?
If kids are calling home from college crying about this, then they need to be on meds and their parents need to talk to them about real life and its complexities (which maybe they should have done while the kids were still in high school).
When has life ever been easy? In my day we were terrified that boyfriends would flunk out and end up in Vietnam. Girls have always been raped (boys too); people have always struggled with sexual identities and the awful transition from childhood (which was never all that great for a lot of us) into the different, sometimes worse stresses of adulthood, and people have been committing suicide forever. The grieving family and friends left behind will blame everything and anything they can--that's a human reaction normal in tragedy.
This is a TV show. Based on a book. Many kids have already read the latter, otherwise no one would have bothered filming it.
A nasty clerk in the convenience store can trigger your vulnerable child. You can't protect kids from life. You can be there when they need you, you can keep at them until they tell you what troubles them when you sense a problem.
11
I can tell you this much,
The producers are thrilled with all this free publicity
They don't care one iota about our kids...
The producers are thrilled with all this free publicity
They don't care one iota about our kids...
62
Exactly-we tend to forget that this is, after all, about making money
3
The classic movie "It's A Wonderful Life" is one of the best anti-suicide movies out there. That film puts the focus on 1) the people who will be hurt 2) on what will be missed if one is not around to experience it 3) on how reaching out to others can help solve even the worst problem.
If you're a filmmaker, please consider making a modern version of "It's A Wonderful Life" that puts the focus on getting past a suicidal impulse.
The mood lift that comes from witnessing the joy of life itself is always an inspiration!
If you're a filmmaker, please consider making a modern version of "It's A Wonderful Life" that puts the focus on getting past a suicidal impulse.
The mood lift that comes from witnessing the joy of life itself is always an inspiration!
68
What if all teens knew the signs of mental illness and thoughts of suicide? www.not-alone.live Empowering all of them with understanding and tools would be like living in a community where everyone knew CPR.
It would just be safer. Netflix started this conversation.
While they are talking about it, lets equip them with FACTS not Fiction.
https://vimeo.com/184605771 This film is 100% real teens sharing their experiences and wisdom. They talk about the real treatable illness behind suicide. Watch the trailer and send the website to your school.
It would just be safer. Netflix started this conversation.
While they are talking about it, lets equip them with FACTS not Fiction.
https://vimeo.com/184605771 This film is 100% real teens sharing their experiences and wisdom. They talk about the real treatable illness behind suicide. Watch the trailer and send the website to your school.
7
If that film you recommend was truly a public service you would not have to pay to watch it. Most teens don't have their own credit card. But many have access to Netflix so guess what they are going to watch...
1
It will be available to them in school. In order to get the largest audience, filmmakers need to use distributors to get the film out on all platforms (coming soon). That means licensing all rights to these distributors so they can make some profit. The audience and reach stays too small without the larger platforms having skin in the game. No one would see it. Sounds counter intuitive, but streaming it free on youtube, it would get lost and it would not get a push. This film was created solely to get important info out to teens.
I wish the people criticizing the show were as critical of the culture depicted in the show. Cruel kids with mixed up values, clueless parents, arrogant school administrators all wrapped up in their own agendas and missing important signs of a troubled student.
And why does our culture worship athletes, lavish them with special treatment and pours millions into stadiums, athletic centers, scholarships and coaches salaries while overlooking abhorrent behavior by the athletes?
As others comments have said, the show is not perfect. Nonetheless, I think it does a good job bringing up a difficult and important subject. It shows good people too who simply had trouble reading the signs. We can all use some education here.
I hope schools will use this opportunity to begin discussion groups to educate students, teachers and parents alike about what to look for and what to do if a students seems depressed and possibly suicidal or knows another student who may be.
There is a scene near the end where I felt another Columbine situation might have been coming. That ended with a different tragedy.
And why does our culture worship athletes, lavish them with special treatment and pours millions into stadiums, athletic centers, scholarships and coaches salaries while overlooking abhorrent behavior by the athletes?
As others comments have said, the show is not perfect. Nonetheless, I think it does a good job bringing up a difficult and important subject. It shows good people too who simply had trouble reading the signs. We can all use some education here.
I hope schools will use this opportunity to begin discussion groups to educate students, teachers and parents alike about what to look for and what to do if a students seems depressed and possibly suicidal or knows another student who may be.
There is a scene near the end where I felt another Columbine situation might have been coming. That ended with a different tragedy.
20
I watched the series last weekend and wrote this reaction piece: https://medium.com/@jennifer_TIMB/why-13-reasons-why-made-me-furious-868...
That evening, I ended up in the Emergency Room and a few days later I wrote this piece for my blog: http://bipolarmomlife.com/er-13-reasons-why/
That evening, I ended up in the Emergency Room and a few days later I wrote this piece for my blog: http://bipolarmomlife.com/er-13-reasons-why/
12
You're a brave person. Thanks for sharing this.
Thanks for reading, Julia.
Jennifer, that first link isn't working but you can still reach it through the second link. I got a 404 on my tablet.
Just look at the picture. Young, attractive and struggling. Everybody is talking about her. What vulnerable teenager would not be lured into imitation? Or into fantasizing?
For those making comparison with Shakespeare/Goethe. Do you know teenagers who binge watch them?
Certainly the intention of those authors was not to profit from the final or to build a whole plot just around the final.
For those making comparison with Shakespeare/Goethe. Do you know teenagers who binge watch them?
Certainly the intention of those authors was not to profit from the final or to build a whole plot just around the final.
10
More teens have read Shakespeare and Goethe in the past 400 years and miraculously became adults than will ever watch this series.
Life is messy. Especially adolescence. The show deals with issues on so many levels. If you want you can certainly focus on revenge. On the other hand, it is possible to see a message that all of those slights and hurts, small and big have an impact and we should all be aware of our words and behavior. That includes school officials. It is I my mind more useful to present a messy situation and talk about it than some ideal PC script where everyone is doing the perfectly right thing. Life is not like that and provides no real depth to folks.
6
Someone I know who attempted suicide referenced that they had been watching this very film. They mentioned how they felt like it would be nice to go out like this. I hadn't known of the show when they brought it up but now that I do I can't believe this is so popular. I understand what attracts people to this and why it has some merit as media, but the overwhelming negative effect cannot be ignored. It trys to draw attention to an issue but I fear it has just caused so many more like it to occur.
16
I too agree that we should keep kids out of libraries and do everything possible to keep the books of Joyce Carol Oates, Thomas Hardy, D.H. Lawrence, Thomas Mann, James Joyce, William Burroughs, Sylvia Plath, Nathaniel Hawthorne, Susan Sontag, David Foster Wallace, John Irving, and any other author who has ever wrote about a troubling topic out of the hands of children. Let's also keep the bible, the koran, and torah out of their hands (not too mention those Upanishads.) Make sure that our kids never see films by Fassbinder, Herzog, Godard, Truffaut, Bunuel, Varda, Akerman, and Cassavetes either.
16
This show is being watched by elementary and middle school kids--not the audience for the literature you mention. They are not the appropriate audience for this show either. The producers are greedy and irresponsible.
12
Really not the point here. You are honestly comparing a Netflix TV series made to attract viewers and money to these works?
9
Yay Jeanine!
2
I wanted to commit suicide like 100x when I was a teen, I was a 'cutter' too...but it was all in moments of emotional despair...so it wasn't without it's cause...it mostly had to do with girls...obviously...I can't imagine why else a teenage boy would be driven to despair...but anyway, the fact remains, that I found some other outlet, some other way of expending that energy, and I was able to survive. I don't feel like I had anybody to talk to, and indeed, I never did talk to anybody about it...but it didn't really matter, because the point is, that Time Heals All Wounds...these 'episodes of despair' I've come to find our real-world releases of chemicals in your body...they can exacerbate any particularly emotional feeling, making the world seem like it's caving in on you...and you become, what, an 'frozen in an emotional coma'? I dunno how to describe it much better than that.
Anyway, it doesn't last forever...hopefully, you can let it go into the Universe, you can find some mode of expression that harnesses that energy, create a form of Art...whatever you need to do. And one day you will find, that whatever you do, whatever emotions you have that those are the very things that drive you to exist, they are the foundations upon which you build your life and your creative interpretation of the events which make up your life...so it turns into a benefit...all those times when you were a teen and you felt lost and alone in the world...
Anyway, it doesn't last forever...hopefully, you can let it go into the Universe, you can find some mode of expression that harnesses that energy, create a form of Art...whatever you need to do. And one day you will find, that whatever you do, whatever emotions you have that those are the very things that drive you to exist, they are the foundations upon which you build your life and your creative interpretation of the events which make up your life...so it turns into a benefit...all those times when you were a teen and you felt lost and alone in the world...
13
To all the naysayers -- you really need to watch the entire series, including the final episode, to have a full understanding of the show and its message. So many things I found to be problematic at first were firmly resolved by the end. In the end you realize that it was NOT the students' fault.
It's one of the best TV series I've ever seen.
It's one of the best TV series I've ever seen.
4
So, can we guarantee that troubled teens will watch the entire series and carefully put it in context before they do anything rash?
17
The problem is a lot of the preteens and teens watching are. It watching until the Beyond The Reasons. Most of the kids I talked to have not watched it. Some kids I know think it's cool Hannah got her "revenge" in death. I totally get what the show was trying to do, and I'm glad it's made people talk more about suicide. At a minimum they could have posted hotline numbers to call before and after each episode. Not wait until the end.
7
For better or worse, this program, and many others are pushed out there and parents are forced to deal with the consequences. The tools available to parents to limit their children's access to media, such as ratings, parental control of accounts, or outright denial of access to technology are useless. If kids don't watch it at home, they can watch it on the school bus on their friend's smart phone. Only constant adult supervision can prevent kids from watching programs like this regardless of whether parents deem them inappropriate. The only recourse then, is for parents to watch it with their children. That is what my wife and I did with our 13 year old daughter, feeling it was better than not watching it with her. We found the experience of watching two rape scenes and a graphically portrayed suicide very unpleasant and uncomfortable to say the least. We do not feel this was a positive learning experience for our daughter overall and wish we had some easy way to have avoided the program all together. But forces greater than ourselves did not give us that option.
16
Let us be clear - suicide ideation is a biochemical process exacerbated by stress. The most proven way to reduce suicide ideation is to ingest prescribed lithium. Until people realize that suicidal feelings (worthlessness, etc) are biochemical in nature, shows like this will provide susceptible youth with a horrible rationale to take their own lives . Lithium does save lives.
9
If only that were true.
3
Yeah lithium is great an all but it doesnt solve problems that lead to sucide. Suicide may be brought about by biochemical imbalances, but often those imbalances are caused by real events.
6
Lithium is an often effective treatment for bipolar 1 disorder....not of much help for most other categories of mental illness or distress.
7
For a long time now, all I've heard in the media is "we have to start talking about suicide. It should not be in the dark" Okay, so now that we have a show talking about that very subject, people are all up in arms. I don't get it. Shouldn't this be a subject which gets airplay? Btw, for those stating that "most suicides are not a result of bullying", get real. It IS a major reason, especially for a vulnerable young person with low self-esteem.
Years ago, as a teenager, I listened to Elton John's song "I Think I'm Going to Kill Myself." Believe me, I knew all the lyrics and, yes, they could be construed as glorifying suicide. It got a lot of airplay on the radio, and I even had the album which featured it as one of the songs. I was also the victim of bullying all through grade school, high school, even college. I survived suicidal urges, no thanks to the mental health industry, btw, which betrayed me big time.
What is the difference between a show like this or a PSA which also brings the subject to light. The truth is, no matter what, we can't predict who is going to kill themselves, or even what will set them off; we can only keep the conversation going as much as possible.
Years ago, as a teenager, I listened to Elton John's song "I Think I'm Going to Kill Myself." Believe me, I knew all the lyrics and, yes, they could be construed as glorifying suicide. It got a lot of airplay on the radio, and I even had the album which featured it as one of the songs. I was also the victim of bullying all through grade school, high school, even college. I survived suicidal urges, no thanks to the mental health industry, btw, which betrayed me big time.
What is the difference between a show like this or a PSA which also brings the subject to light. The truth is, no matter what, we can't predict who is going to kill themselves, or even what will set them off; we can only keep the conversation going as much as possible.
10
I think they opened up the topic. Now we can differentiate between Fact and Fiction. Yes, there are important social issues in teen culture today that were addressed by the show. But it didn't introduce mental illness into the mix. What we really need to stop suicide is to acknowledge the role mental illness plays. We need to destigmatize it. Call it what it is. An illness. Treatable illness. Something teens can get help for if they realize that is what is behind suicidal thoughts. Teens listen to teens. This film was made by teens who had experienced it.
www.not-alone.live. It speaks to them. It is real.
www.not-alone.live. It speaks to them. It is real.
6
There is research showing that how suicide is discussed in the media can either exacerbate risk or reduce it among those who are vulnerable. The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention has published recommendations for discussing suicide in public forums. The recommendations (applicable to everyone from bloggers and commenters to news orgs) are aimed at reducing the likelihood of copycat suicide, providing resources to individuals at risk, and providing advice to loved ones of those at risk
https://afsp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/recommendations.pdf
https://afsp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/recommendations.pdf
So much of our so-called entertainment portrays violence and hatred on a scale that few in real life ever experience. I've pretty much stopped watching as all the dysfunction and violence is just too much. From Game of Thrones to real reporting from war zones, what is shown on TV and the internet is an appalling indictment of human nature.
The fact that some are entertained by it is both frightening and contemptible.
The fact that some are entertained by it is both frightening and contemptible.
31
Yeah, I don't watch TV myself...you're last sentence is spot on and the end point of that seems to be the live streaming of the gruesome acts that have occurred recently.
Get out there and get creative, exercise, and make your own meaning. Remember: Life is what YOU make it.
Peace.
Get out there and get creative, exercise, and make your own meaning. Remember: Life is what YOU make it.
Peace.
8
Why this show? The almighty dollar.
11
I found it watchable but frankly self-indulgent, narcissistic and contrived. Suicide as the ultimate passive-aggressive act of revenge is rather disgusting actually. This show has received a lot of attention because it deals with a controversial topic and has an unusual plot device to keep people guessing but it masks the fact that this show was superficial and unrealistic. I don't believe in censoring books or tv content for my kids but I would have a frank conversation with them about this and the troubling themes it contains, including the fact that it's ultimately a shallow and manipulative depiction of a serious subject.
56
Read about this in the Boston Globe and was stunned to find out my teenager had already watched. I mentioned to him that middle schoolers were watching the show and he told me that was really bad and inappropriate.
The problems here are that Netflix usage is not monitored (guiilty) and also that the network does not censor its content or usage in any way. Creating content that could encourage suicide ideation is very destructive. We just had a girl commit suicide in our high school and wonder if this show played a role
Netflix won't take any responsibility. Maybe someone should bring a lawsuit.
The problems here are that Netflix usage is not monitored (guiilty) and also that the network does not censor its content or usage in any way. Creating content that could encourage suicide ideation is very destructive. We just had a girl commit suicide in our high school and wonder if this show played a role
Netflix won't take any responsibility. Maybe someone should bring a lawsuit.
30
You can set up a password to block content.
Brilliant, Netflix. New, disruptive distribution model; same old profit motive. And same lame justifications and excuses for missteps when things go wrong. Take a bow Reed Hastings. "Aspire to educate" my you know what.
12
I don't have netflix so wasn't aware of this show until three days ago...my youngest, 20 yr old uni student called and she was very upset. She says, having witnessed it in high school, self-harm and suicidal ideation, is too many times, for too many kids, too near to being a "way to fit in", and gaining attention. She's just completed her 3rd year at uni, her focus is on "at risk" kids and she believes this show does not offer any way forward or out of this but, rather, will more likely reinforce the attitude of "why shouldn't I" or "this will make me special". My daughter lost three school mates/friends to suicide. She's made her thoughts/position known to netflix.
35
Good for your daughter. This was an inexcusable exploitation of a teen's misery and the final result. No need to have shown this. NONE.
6
Sorry--but whistling past the graveyard won't help your fragile child. You don't think daily life--including the big and small horrors routinely encountered at school, at the hands of one's "friends" and the kind ministrations of "responsible adults"--isn't loaded to the bursting point with triggers?
If your child is so unstable that a TV series may push her over the edge, she/he needs to be on meds now, and you need to make sure every pill is swallowed and not vomited up afterwards. Don't trust your kid's life to therapy alone. Children at risk of suicide probably can't remember ever feeling "normal" even if their distress began recently, likely with the onset of puberty.
You can't censor out life in the hope of keeping them safe. And, very tragically and unfixably, people will always be lost to suicide. It's not the new stresses of our present society--it's life, which is sometimes felt to be unendurable and which catches a certain percentage of people in the dark moment, when a second before or a second afterwards they might have escaped.
If your child is so unstable that a TV series may push her over the edge, she/he needs to be on meds now, and you need to make sure every pill is swallowed and not vomited up afterwards. Don't trust your kid's life to therapy alone. Children at risk of suicide probably can't remember ever feeling "normal" even if their distress began recently, likely with the onset of puberty.
You can't censor out life in the hope of keeping them safe. And, very tragically and unfixably, people will always be lost to suicide. It's not the new stresses of our present society--it's life, which is sometimes felt to be unendurable and which catches a certain percentage of people in the dark moment, when a second before or a second afterwards they might have escaped.
13
so, the onset of puberty is a potential cause of suicide? Thanks, doctor...
2
Brian, the onset of puberty is when hormonally-influenced depression often begins, especially for girls--it can be tied to the menstrual cycle.
1
Oh great. Let's blame it all on our periods. Thanks for resurrecting that old canard.
OK... so let me see if I understand this. There is a show that has suicide as a main topic and there are a bunch of over-protective parents and teachers who can't teach worried?
5
If studies of how the human brain matures are correct; and, I believe they are, the female brain matures by age 24, the male brain by age 26. This has been known for decades; studies were done, completed and published. The part of the brain which is most affected is the frontal lobe, the ability to reason. So, no one at Netflix has teen age children, or has, but does not know much about them. This was an exploitative production, aimed at immature and vulnerable teens. I didn't watch it, as an adult with no teens. I won't watch it now. Facebook finally succumbed to the threat of loss of advertising dollars; Zuckerberg apologized for unedited content, and said there would now be editors in real time so that murder and rape would not be televised on FB. Netflix needs active editors who are educated enough to have stopped this film from being shown. There is nothing there to help a depressed teen or parents. There is something there to affect the immature teen mind.
3
You don't understand it at all.
2
Watch the graphic portrayal of a girl slitting her wrist in the final episode (sorry, spoiler alert) and get back to us....making comments about something you haven't watched is ignorant.
6
I have been watching. It never occurred to me that this show would encourage (as opposed to discourage) teen suicide. I think the biggest problem with the series is that it is too long. It could be done in 3-6 episodes. Also, some of it is a bit contrived.
Regarding the subject matter of teen suicide, I agree that it is better to make a flawed product than to avoid addressing the topic at all.
Regarding the subject matter of teen suicide, I agree that it is better to make a flawed product than to avoid addressing the topic at all.
6
YOU thought about it rationally. The audience at risk does not.
5
As someone who attempted suicide after being the victim of gender-based violence, I am grateful for the existence of 13 Reasons Why. The show helped me to understand why, after being sexually assaulted, I wanted to kill myself. It also explained back to me the social dynamics among family and friends in response to both the assault and my suicidal depression. 13 Reasons Why is nuanced and thoughtful, and, better than any piece of fiction I know -- including Shakespeare -- describes the complex, sometimes erring, sometimes surprisingly insightful, reasoning of the suicidal mind. And suicide is a topic about which we need to have more intelligent public discussion.
Furthermore, if 13 Reasons Why glamorizes suicide at all, then, to a much greater extent, it displays the almost infinite pain that follows suicide.
Furthermore, if 13 Reasons Why glamorizes suicide at all, then, to a much greater extent, it displays the almost infinite pain that follows suicide.
19
The fact that this show even exists should tell sociologists a lot about our current zeitgeist. Based on my analysis of popular content, the American people and possibly the English-speaking world, are questioning whether life is worth living. The plethora of movies and series about AI and robotics are also raising questions about whether human beings are necessary in the current world and viable in the next. Life is competition. Some people fold under intense competition. The recurring message from our fascist leaders is this: "You are all alone in a godless universe. Public be damned." To this, Trump supporters stand up and roar, oblivious to the fact that they are the next victims.
4
wow, go find a puppy to pet...
As the parent of a young person who has attempted suicide multiple times, can I just say that the causes and motivations are so much deeper than a silly teen tv show on Netflix. We need to converse about the real issues, not a piece of televised fiction.
25
It was not fiction. It was real. It was exploitative and awful. As a parent of a teen, you might know that the brain matures at age 24 for girls, age 26 for boys. Be aware of that, and you might understand your child's suicide attempts. Perhaps a good psychiatrist who can prescribe the appropriate meds? There are very good meds out there.
1
He's not s teen. And we have multiple psychiatrists, social workers, and other health care providers on his team. And he's tried many medications.
1
I had a friend in mid-twenties whose girlfriend committed suicide. She did have meds, and did have counseling. What I saw, and other friends saw, was a person totally divorced from the world around her. She visited once and sat in the middle of a living room rug, drawing circles with one hand. We knew she was seriously mentally ill. Finally, she was taken to an ER and committed for a 72 hour observation. She was Schizophrenic. At that time there were no meds which might have worked; counseling did not work.
1
I am glad to read this. I started watching this series on the recommendation of a friend, but never got more than 3 or 4 episodes into it. It seemed that Hannah had made a sort of puzzle / joke out of her death (and life), leaving her friends and community in a confusion that they had no way of working through. The underlying premise being that life is trivial and can be tossed at one's whim.
9
This is free speech worth defending. It is rich, complex, informed, and appropriately labeled for those who should approach these issues with caution at this time in their lives.
My heart goes out to those who are dealing with these issues. We all need to be much more cognizant of these issues, from teen rape to hostile uses of technology.
My heart goes out to those who are dealing with these issues. We all need to be much more cognizant of these issues, from teen rape to hostile uses of technology.
6
This piece of art - and art it is - is one of the only television shows I've seen that accurately portrays the heightened emotions of teenagers and cutting cruelty of teenagers to one another that is a rite of passage of growing up. There is a reason that high school is renowned as a difficult time because these emotions are very real. Showing teenagers everywhere that to struggle is to be a teenager is helpful and far from showing that there is no hope '13 Reasons Why' shows poignantly that everyone is much more vulnerable than they believe others to be and that sharing the love can and does help all those in pain. I applaud the creators and encourage the detractors not to feel burned by the flame of truth. This is painful and it is life or death and all the more reasons why everyone should understand that teenagers are a vulnerable population expert at hiding their pain from one another and from adults.
4
The right response to this is not to criticize the show or demand that it cease production. The right response is for parents who believe their kids shouldn't watch the show to be parents. Stop asking the rest of society to bend to your wishes and stop blaming others for your own lack of parenting.
13
Surely,you don't expect parents to parent ?!
I loved this show. I did not binge watch. I watched some of it with my 15 year old but it was his choice to stop watching. His issue was that all the kids at the high school seemed too old, and there were no younger kids,ie 14/15. Still we did engage in a conversation about bullying. I thought the show did justice to many aspects and realities of teen world, and it was gripping to watch. Hannah was not always a reliable narrator and her version of truth was not always definitive, but to me, it just made the show that much more real. And awesome American accent from
Aussie actor Katherine Langford!
Aussie actor Katherine Langford!
4
Obviously not gripping enough for your teen age son to keep watching. He decided to stop watching. Why didn't you?
1
Gee, I'm glad those of you who think the show isn't harmful haven't gone through what we're going through. My depressed 13 year old daughter secretly watched the show with her friend, then admitted it to me. She also admitted to suicide ideation and harmed herself for the first time. She has therapy, she has all the support, but this has set us back tremendously. Now I'm lying awake at night, waiting for what's next.
125
The best of luck to you and your daughter. If you're there for her, I'm sure you can overcome the negative reaction from this show before long.
3
Why don't you ask her why she would think about killing herself. If you get to know her you might know why.
3
Why do you assume she does not know her daughter?
4
While this show may have some benefits for the majority of teens who will never seriously contemplate suicide and are instead in need of some deeper thinking about use of social media and what constitutes sexual assault, it also quite clearly romanticizes suicide. One of the leads is the person who should be dead and gone throughout the series but instead, through the narrative technique of flashback appears to live on. And it absolutely makes it seem like suicide might be a revenge strategy. I am the parent of a severely depressed teen and she is horrified by her friends love for this show and it really upsets her that it makes it appear that someone else can be to blame for a person's suicide, or that suicide is not the product of a serious mental illness. She read this book a couple of years ago so she knows the story and she has had to work to block out all the love for the series in her social media because it acts as a trigger for her suicidal feelings. I get that it was well made and kids and parents who are not suicidal love it, but if someone emulates the approach in this story what will we say? The risk seems quite substantial to me.
37
It is remarkable that you don't mention "The Sorrows of Young Werther" Goethe's 19th century novel that was followed by a wave of suicides.
The amount of violence in movies, TV, and the net is amazing, and watching a lot of violent TV is the number 1 predictor of aggression in children.
I saw this advertised on Netflix and declined to watch. Too sad. Too violent.
The amount of violence in movies, TV, and the net is amazing, and watching a lot of violent TV is the number 1 predictor of aggression in children.
I saw this advertised on Netflix and declined to watch. Too sad. Too violent.
23
Watched the who series, I thought it was enlightening and informative. I found it realistic, and something all teams should watch.
2
I haven't seen the show and never heard about it until now. I would prefer to refrain from commenting since I haven't seen it but I believe it needs to be said: Most of the opposition to this show--at least from the professionals--are that the adults didn't do enough to help. That's real life. Everybody is imperfect. Our society shakes the suicidal and depressed. In my mind, the show could very well be taking creative liberties to portray this fact (albeit, subtly?).
I know when I load Netflix, there's always a kids option that shows up. Seems the nurse/mother made a mistake by not using parental controls for her teenage daughter, even though the show is marked tv-MA and they are available. She made a mistake, which seems to have harmed her daughter. I don't think she'll make the same mistake again.
It's okay to make mistakes. Adults should talk to kids more about mental illness and be proactive about it, especially in the age of online bullying. Illuding to a ban of a tv show is not the way to go about things. I remember the book adults wanted to ban when I was in middle school was The Catcher in the Rye. Another poster remarks on Shakespearean plays (that you'll find performed in schools). Talk. Educate. If this show gets a more productive conversation going, that's a great bonus.
I know when I load Netflix, there's always a kids option that shows up. Seems the nurse/mother made a mistake by not using parental controls for her teenage daughter, even though the show is marked tv-MA and they are available. She made a mistake, which seems to have harmed her daughter. I don't think she'll make the same mistake again.
It's okay to make mistakes. Adults should talk to kids more about mental illness and be proactive about it, especially in the age of online bullying. Illuding to a ban of a tv show is not the way to go about things. I remember the book adults wanted to ban when I was in middle school was The Catcher in the Rye. Another poster remarks on Shakespearean plays (that you'll find performed in schools). Talk. Educate. If this show gets a more productive conversation going, that's a great bonus.
5
You can set up your kids accounts, but when they log in all accounts show up and you pick the profile to watch. As far as I know there isn't a way to lock out the parents account so kids can't access it. So unless you're on Netflix everyday, you don't know. And kids aren't always at home watching Netflix. They're at their friends or other parents house. Or, better yet, they use their friends login to watch what their parents block. So that line of thinking is asinine. A parent can only control so much.
I did not get the vibe from this article that they want to ban the series. Yes. Suicide is ugly. I know. I've lost my son to it when he was only 16. People need to talk about it to help end the stigma. Would it have been so hard for the producers to include a voice over and list hotline numbers before and after each episode?
I did not get the vibe from this article that they want to ban the series. Yes. Suicide is ugly. I know. I've lost my son to it when he was only 16. People need to talk about it to help end the stigma. Would it have been so hard for the producers to include a voice over and list hotline numbers before and after each episode?
4
The cat is out of the bag with this series, too late to prevent kids from seeing it. Netflix owes it to the public to fund and launch a massive PSA campaign called "Thirteen Reasons Why NOT", like the campaign a few years ago that told LGBT youths "it gets better." And Netflix should also take another look at whether it can justify a second season, as should the show's advertisers.
6
Funny how the Netflix show is making all these headlines recently, when the book has been available in our school's library for years. Netflix rates this TV-MA! It isn't like they have a Y17 or Y14 age rating attached to this. Doesn't Netflix have parental controls for a reason? Growing up there was a television network that often produced their movies with content that wasn't all flowers and puppies. My mom watched it with me and we talked about the subject mater afterwards.
2
Teenagers don't read books anymore! They're safe on that count!
2
13 Reasons Why capitalizes off of our recent wave of mental health awareness material in the media, but does more damage than good. Teens are highly susceptible to influence, as shown by the copycat suicides seen in high schools. The attention given to the deceased inspires others suffering from depression to take their lives. This show effectively does just that, by showering the dead Hannah Baker with attention and sympathy. The show also falters in its depiction of depression as an external issue caused by cruel teenagers, when it is more often a mental issue. It is not at all realistic, and the whispers of there being a Season 2 are frankly disturbing.
12
I don't know. I feel like this argument cuts against my grain. Intentionally leaving young adults uncensored can have positive outcomes too. One, they're going to find out about the media from their peers anyway. You've only succeeded in undermining trust. Two, circumventing any one program is a wasted effort. There are plenty of respectable sources for depressed teens to find suicidal triggers. Ever read Romeo and Juliet? You don't need Netflix.
I'm not a doctor and I'm not a parent so I won't tell you how to do your jobs. Based on my own experience though, I think you're moving in the wrong direction. Rather than sheltering children from dangerous media perhaps a better strategy is teach them media literacy at a young age.
I think I watched my first rated R film when I was six or seven. My parents stopped monitoring my rentals by the time I was 11. At the age of 17, I had already spent 4 years working in video stores and movie theaters. Not only could I consume whatever media I wanted, I didn't have to pay for it either. Let me tell you, watching "Kids", "Y Tu Mama Tambien or "Waking Life" are all eye openers for any young adult. I have never mentioned these titles to my parents and probably never will. Even if anyone had tried to stop me, I would have went and bought a book instead.
I think most of these interpretative skills came from a combination of art history, cinema, literature, and history. I think more students could benefit from a similar education.
I'm not a doctor and I'm not a parent so I won't tell you how to do your jobs. Based on my own experience though, I think you're moving in the wrong direction. Rather than sheltering children from dangerous media perhaps a better strategy is teach them media literacy at a young age.
I think I watched my first rated R film when I was six or seven. My parents stopped monitoring my rentals by the time I was 11. At the age of 17, I had already spent 4 years working in video stores and movie theaters. Not only could I consume whatever media I wanted, I didn't have to pay for it either. Let me tell you, watching "Kids", "Y Tu Mama Tambien or "Waking Life" are all eye openers for any young adult. I have never mentioned these titles to my parents and probably never will. Even if anyone had tried to stop me, I would have went and bought a book instead.
I think most of these interpretative skills came from a combination of art history, cinema, literature, and history. I think more students could benefit from a similar education.
6
I don't think the issue is censoring -- this should have never been produced in the first place, or much more thought should have gone into its production, i.e. with the help of mental health experts, etc.
6
Let me see if I have this right. This show is about a teen age girl, who in the last episode commits suicide. I understand the controversy, but what caught my attention is that the show may be renewed for a second season. How do you top season 1? Have another vulnerable teenager commit suicide? A new suicide every season? Let's hope 13 reasons does not go 13 seasons.
20
Good question Nelly, but maybe what they could do is have the second season be about another beautiful young woman with flawless skin who's depressed about bullying and such, and she was a fan of this first season, and she starts making a lot of DVD videos of post-suicide messages to all the people she wants to get even with.
And then someone, a friend or relative of hers, finds a DVD and plays it before she kills herself, and they talk her down, get her a good therapist, and she goes on to get into a great college and have a good life.
I think that kind of second season might also do a lot to quiet the outrage about this season.
And then someone, a friend or relative of hers, finds a DVD and plays it before she kills herself, and they talk her down, get her a good therapist, and she goes on to get into a great college and have a good life.
I think that kind of second season might also do a lot to quiet the outrage about this season.
6
Very good, Dan, but so non-Neflix like.
3
I like your ideas Mr. Stackhouse. They sound more like an HBO or Showtime kind of storyline. I personally think a lot of the theme will be focused on liability and accountabilities issues. I can't believe there will be a second season though.
3
For those making the correlation between Romeo and Juliet; that is a tale of irrational love and it's purposely overblown in a comical way. Agreed, though, that angle the story is often lost on young impressionable minds and it's thought of as a tragic love story. People seem passionate about defending this show and while I understand everyone's right to watch it (except for children who have parents who have deemed it inappropriate, as I have), because it now exists, I really question the purpose and wonder if it is so noble as everyone wishes it to be. They made this show to make money. The subject matter is cringe worthy in it's setting. And, if the purpose is suicide prevention and teachable moments, I feel those lessons are better delivered through workshops at school, with your therapist or PSAs - not a TV show. My best friend took her life four years ago and if there's one thing I've learned I cannot do anything to change that fact now, and I've also slowly learned to accept there is likely nothing I could have done to prevent her from making that choice. Give people real tools to work with; a fact sheet of what to do and who to call when someone is in trouble. It just seems a bit... well, stomach turning to gawk at a girl taking that journey and knowing the ultimate end. What is the point? It's not so simple as "be nicer". But again, my experiences leave me with a different reverence for this situation than others might feel.
4
I haven't seen the series, so I can only comment abstractly. But frequently I see parents say "if only I had know this was available on that service, I would have monitored them more closely!" Um...should'nt you do that regardless of what you know is or isn't there? Isn't that the point of monitoring? You're not always going to get a heads up.
There are lots of pieces of media that can be potentially harmful to children, if digested in isolation. The adults in their lives (not just their parents...it takes a village) should take an active interest in them and help them process the media they consume!
There are lots of pieces of media that can be potentially harmful to children, if digested in isolation. The adults in their lives (not just their parents...it takes a village) should take an active interest in them and help them process the media they consume!
3
This is not a show for kids. Just watched first episode last night and it definitely reminded me of high school and how bad it was at times. Glamorize is probably not the right word, but could feed into the need for some teens to feel understood.
It would be good if they could watch it with their parents or someone who could say "hey it gets better".
It would be good if they could watch it with their parents or someone who could say "hey it gets better".
6
Because there is so much desire for "content" producers are allowing veirtually anything to be shot and televised...stories making viiolent vigilantes heroes because they kill the Pearson they "think" is guilt. They may also kill innocent people too but thems the breaks. The end justifies the means.
I'm not surprised that a series romanticism suicide has been purchased and shown. There are no limits and arguments that this is a teaching tool or that it paints suicide as painful don't wash. They do it for the money and they don't care who they hurt. Just like ar mangers, weapons sellers and the rest. Humans don't matter as long as there is $$$$ at the end.
I'm not surprised that a series romanticism suicide has been purchased and shown. There are no limits and arguments that this is a teaching tool or that it paints suicide as painful don't wash. They do it for the money and they don't care who they hurt. Just like ar mangers, weapons sellers and the rest. Humans don't matter as long as there is $$$$ at the end.
2
Flashback to 1990 and the Judas Priest case, read: http://www.nytimes.com/1990/07/17/arts/2-families-sue-heavy-metal-band-a... My times have changed. From "trials" to tribulations. Are we in for more trials? The entertainmnet industry needs to be more responsible, kids are gullible with brains not fully developed, please keep your greed in check. Teenagers weren't put here as your revenue stream.
3
Studies have shown the female brain matures by age 24; the male brain by age 26. So, Netflix ought to be aware it is marketing a suicide film to immature teens and make it accessible only to those who watch with parents. There is no reason to display this sad event; it is not illuminating, nor is it educational. It is exploitative.
4
A moral approach, but it's not going to be heeded. Teenagers are a big revenue stream and there's never been a marketing division or an advertising firm that's turned away from selling things to them, for the greater good. Tobacco and alcohol industries are still working at subtly selling their products to people too young to buy them legally.
3
First off, netflix is a terrible service with a short list of decent movies. For the most part, their in-house "creations" are plot-thin, with unappealing casts and insipid story lines. Furthermore, they are heavily populated with things like this - teen suicides, teen angst, teen gender confusion -- in short it is a veritable cornucopia of all the ills of a generation ruined by their slovenly, ignorant and indulgent parents. The perfect service for the ignoramuses that make up the bulk of this country.
1
Ignoramuses? Spot on. But not the bulk of this country. Rather, the bulk of those foolish enough to subscribe to Netflix, and then --to top it off-- are so intellectually barren as to believe a series of this kind to be art...
1
Wow that's a lot of snark for a mere streaming service. Do you work for Amazon Prime?
I grew up in the 40's and 50's and find it hard to believe why people today don't see the pressures placed on children. From "instant" everything, to adults acting like children themselves, to needlessly dispensing drugs for inappropriate behavior, the list goes on and on. And television? We've fallen a long ways since Ozzie and Harriet. It isn't surprising that children have such problems. It's a wonder they survive as well as they do, considering they do so in spite of society, not because of it.
29
Uhm, it is not hard to cancel a Netflix subscription if you have the courage to do so and monitor and limit what your children watch. We used to call that parenting. Technology makes it harder? So work harder at it.
If you don't or don't monitor your children's viewing then you have simply assumed the risk that Netflix is not the parent you want.
If you don't or don't monitor your children's viewing then you have simply assumed the risk that Netflix is not the parent you want.
7
As if this story were the only time the average teenager was likely to be exposed to the idea of suicide, or to a suicidal friend! Parents just don't want to hear about it. Easier to shut down discussion than to deal with issues like rape and incompetent or indifferent adult caregivers.
10
Leave it to Netflix et al. to find a way to profit from, to capitalize on, and to commodify teenage suicide. If you think teenagers are going to find a show like this to be a deterrent, it's been too long since you were a teenager. And if you believe Netfix's PR departuments claims that this show is about informing and protecting children, I've got a bridge to sell you. It's about making money off of human suffering, period.
How utterly asinine, and foreseeably dangerous
How utterly asinine, and foreseeably dangerous
24
No it is not.
1
Well, one way NOT to improve the situation is to stick our heads in the sand, expunge suicide from the list of permissible topics of literature and television, and simply pretend that kids don't kill ever themselves.
Everyone is sure to have an individualized reaction to something as emotionally fraught, but I credit '13 reasons' for getting people talking about teen suicide. The show is flawed, sure. But we're humans - perfection remains beyond our reach. Those who would improve on it are welcome to try.
I expect the show will save more lives than it costs.
Everyone is sure to have an individualized reaction to something as emotionally fraught, but I credit '13 reasons' for getting people talking about teen suicide. The show is flawed, sure. But we're humans - perfection remains beyond our reach. Those who would improve on it are welcome to try.
I expect the show will save more lives than it costs.
9
Hey it is America and far too many Americans dont want to deal with reality.
2
Many people without an agenda will not agree with most, if not all, of the criticisms in this article. Parents of depressed children bear the responsibility of monitoring what their children watch, not the producers. There were repeated warnings at the beginning of episodes making it clear that the series was about suicide. If someone with history found the series triggering, why did he/she ignore the warnings? Finally, the doctors and others in the suicide/depression industry have business reasons to criticize. What is unfortunate and the fault of the reporter is letting them get away with putting two scenes that they chose specifically to criticize in a false context. In both cases where a counselor took insufficient action and an adult stated the teen would not be stopped from committing suicide, the context made it crystal clear that these were wrong and failures by the adults. Proclaiming such an action as negligent is self-serving; that was the very point of the scenes. This series was far from perfect. Suicide is a very difficult problem for families, schools and professionals. The subject deserves meaningful intervention and education, not simplistic criticism of a television series.
6
Its creators have defended the show, saying they aimed to make the drama helpful to struggling kids.
This reminds me of a defense someone holding a gun might say after they had just shot someone to death:
But I was aiming only to scare them.
If they can't know for sure where the bullet's going to end up, don't pull the trigger. I really can't believe how irresponsible this world has become.
This reminds me of a defense someone holding a gun might say after they had just shot someone to death:
But I was aiming only to scare them.
If they can't know for sure where the bullet's going to end up, don't pull the trigger. I really can't believe how irresponsible this world has become.
12
No mention of DBT (dialectical behavior therapy) in the show? Shameful.
1
I can't answer for this particular piece of work. But suicide contagion is a much studied phenomenon, not confined to adolescents. Goethe's novella 'Sorrows of Young Werther' did, in fact, set off a rash of suicides of young men who saw a glamourous avatar of themselves in the tragic hero. The popular rock adaptation of Wedekind's 'Spring Awakening' also ends with the suicide of a teenage boy, valorized as a tormented heroic soul surrounded by cruel, repressed adults. Heck, Romeo and Juliet glamourizes suicide.
You cannot make the whole world safe. Most especially you cannot avoid discussing difficult or controversial subjects because it may upset someone - particularly someone who is unstable and histrionic to begin with. Hiding or avoiding a subject merely enhances its glamour.
Speaking as someone whose teenage years, thank god, are well behind her .... and who has looked into the abyss more than once.
You cannot make the whole world safe. Most especially you cannot avoid discussing difficult or controversial subjects because it may upset someone - particularly someone who is unstable and histrionic to begin with. Hiding or avoiding a subject merely enhances its glamour.
Speaking as someone whose teenage years, thank god, are well behind her .... and who has looked into the abyss more than once.
8
I think a lot of people are failing to realize that many kids are told to "be stronger" "fight back" "get thicker skin" or "stick up for yourself". The school counselor in 13 reasons why was grossly negligent. It doesn't mean that many parents and teachers in our schools are not in fact grossly negligent. The show also shows that many of the characters that were left behind by Hannah's suicide were emotionally distraught and saddened that she was gone - a sign that Hannah's perspective wasn't always correct. As someone who suffered from suicidal thoughts in middle school and early high school, this is an accurate account of the loneliness that kids feel - and that parents and other kids need to think about how they act around one another b/c not everyone will react to the same advice in the same way.
7
There are many problems with this series and frankly I see no overall benefit to what it dramatizes. This series uses suicide as a revenge fantasy. The misdirected message is that when people do you wrong and negatively impact your life you can similarly make their life miserable by killings yourself and putting the blame on them by recording a series of cassette tapes. Nothing could be further from the truth. When you take your life, that's it. The people who bullied you or did you harm live on, while you don't. This show misses that mark.
60
"advising people who choose to watch it to view it with someone else and to take breaks between episodes rather than binge watch."
You could say the same thing about Berlin Alexanderplatz.
You could say the same thing about Berlin Alexanderplatz.
2
Has someone started a boycott? Because without one it will just get renewed. Clearly Yorkey and the rest knew that the experts were opposed to the series and went ahead anyway. Awful.
9
I watched this show and by no means did I find this drama "helpful to struggling kids." Just the opposite. I found it painful, a little too close for comfort, and possibly the gentle push some kids might feel in crossing that line of no return. A few years ago, a high school in my area had 3 teenage suicides within a 6-month period. Don't think for a moment that the second and third deaths were not related to the first individual who ended her life by walking in front of a commuter high speed train. Suicide IS contagious, especially among young people. I write from first hand experience, from when I was in college. If it weren't for the teacher who happened to stop by her office on her day off and read the note I had left for her under her office door, I would not be writing this today. I struggled with depression and contemplated suicide too often during my teens and early 20s. My 24-year-old niece committed suicide a few years ago. After working as a suicide counselor for many years, my heart still struggles when any person, especially young, believes death is the ONLY option, and that death is their only comfort. This Netflix series really disturbs me. I think if the main character had lived instead of died, perhaps a different kind of message could benefit any viewer who is on the cusp of indecision. Netflix didn't glorify suicide. They merely made the options more plausible for any viewer on the edge. The writing and acting is too realistic for me.
135
I remember when the Campanile on the Berkeley campus had an open area reached by an elevator; you could look out from there over the whole campus. One day a depressed foreign student who had failed a course and thought his parents would disown him jumped. We were horrified. The campus shut down the elevator until a tall glass barrier was put in place to prevent the possibility of a jump from the tower. The Golden Gate Bridge also had its share of jumpers; finally, the Bridge Authority put up a glass barrier. It might obscure the view, but there are no jumpers. And, that is a good thing, because it gives the potential suicide a chance to think. No quick up and over.
3
Did we all forget that Romeo and Juliet is a required read for English class ?? Because no one has a problem with that.
15
There was also "The Little Prince" - hardly a story for children in my eyes, but nonetheless a huge seller to this day. I am at a loss as to why that is.
2
Romeo and Juliet is far enough from the everyday trappings of modern peoples' lives, it's amazing anyone cares about it. It's also part of a wider genre of literature where young lovers die "just because" -- there is no reason. Thankfully this was not Shakespeare's milieu, and he concerned himself with many other subjects. Yet one message of this whole genre is to conflate love with tragedy.
I don't know if this program addressed sexual abuse. I am a professional astrologer, which is to say, someone who hears it all. One of my teachers, Martha Lang Wescott, a former therapist, mentioned that where there is suicide or a suicide pattern in the family, look for (meaning inquire about) a corresponding pattern of sexual abuse in that family. In nearly every case I have found this to be true, including in my own family, where my grandfather, a known abuser, shot himself in the head.
We are now in way over the level of most Americans, who merely want to be entertained; and the producers of course like us to think that their substance is nutritious -- just like a little vitamin C sprinkled into the Lucky Charms.
I don't know if this program addressed sexual abuse. I am a professional astrologer, which is to say, someone who hears it all. One of my teachers, Martha Lang Wescott, a former therapist, mentioned that where there is suicide or a suicide pattern in the family, look for (meaning inquire about) a corresponding pattern of sexual abuse in that family. In nearly every case I have found this to be true, including in my own family, where my grandfather, a known abuser, shot himself in the head.
We are now in way over the level of most Americans, who merely want to be entertained; and the producers of course like us to think that their substance is nutritious -- just like a little vitamin C sprinkled into the Lucky Charms.
Kids in therapeutic settings are not allowed to read R & J for the same reasons they can't watch 13 Reasons Why: bad for the head.
1
While I do take a variety of issues with the show 13 Reasons Why, I do applaud them for taking a usually taboo subject of suicide and bringing it to the mainstream. We can not talk about suicide and depression as much as we want but that will not make it disappear. I think that the show has some great moments but ultimately fell short in providing resources for people who are suffering or who are needing help. It ended the show without answers or any form of help. That being said, the show does exist, and telling people that they cannot watch it, is NOT the answer. Telling someone they are not allowed to watch it is only going to make them feel like less of a person, because they can't do something that "normal" people can do. How about instead parents or guardians watch it with teens- let them ask questions, explain what resources are available, see if they need help and explain what is problematic about the dramatized version. Open up a conversation. It's time we start talking to kids/teens instead of shoving issues in the closet.
2
Not talking about suicide is not helping either.
74
Thank you. Yes. If this series opens up a dialogue between teens and parents and school counselors, then it is doing tremendous good.
Yup, and talking about it in a way that's sterile doesn't help either.
I think the show is aimed more at stopping the bullying and social media abuse that plagues teens than it is at stopping suicide. On that level, I think it succeeds.
26
Actually suicide is a uniquely effective way of dealing with one's problems.
Unfortunately it permanently precludes any second chances and leaves horrific collateral damage.
By the way--remind me how many remakes of "Romeo and Juliet" we're up to now. Anyone banning Shakespeare for high schoolers? As our children move through school, they are exposed to classics of the educational canon filled with grief, horror, betrayal and abandonment. Almost any book or movie will include themes and portrayals distressing to any number of vulnerable kids.
Teens are smart about some things. A movie or series full of perceptive caring adults who pick up on the slightest vibration of imminent risk is going to ring highly false to a hearty number of kids already in crisis.
The helping professions are full of people full of theories who often fail at speaking the language children relate to best. Here's yet another flap du jour for them to get exercised over.
The character in the series speaking to the guilt-stricken boy was trying to relieve that kid's very painful burden. It wasn't a dismissal of the urge to help.
This urgent impulse to censor for all the "right reasons" is as dangerous and harmful as censoring for all the wrong ones. Let sunlight in, even if it burns. And then let kids talk about the pain in any way they choose to. But don't pretend they can ever be shielded from life's terrible realities.
Unfortunately it permanently precludes any second chances and leaves horrific collateral damage.
By the way--remind me how many remakes of "Romeo and Juliet" we're up to now. Anyone banning Shakespeare for high schoolers? As our children move through school, they are exposed to classics of the educational canon filled with grief, horror, betrayal and abandonment. Almost any book or movie will include themes and portrayals distressing to any number of vulnerable kids.
Teens are smart about some things. A movie or series full of perceptive caring adults who pick up on the slightest vibration of imminent risk is going to ring highly false to a hearty number of kids already in crisis.
The helping professions are full of people full of theories who often fail at speaking the language children relate to best. Here's yet another flap du jour for them to get exercised over.
The character in the series speaking to the guilt-stricken boy was trying to relieve that kid's very painful burden. It wasn't a dismissal of the urge to help.
This urgent impulse to censor for all the "right reasons" is as dangerous and harmful as censoring for all the wrong ones. Let sunlight in, even if it burns. And then let kids talk about the pain in any way they choose to. But don't pretend they can ever be shielded from life's terrible realities.
57
With all due respect, last time I read it, Romeo & Juliet revolved around a great and ironic tragedy. 13 Reasons, on the other hand, portrays suicide as the ultimate way to punish those at whom you are mad or by whom you feel you have been wronged.
In short, Romeo & Juliet illustrates the irony and waste of suicide, while 13 Reasons celebrates its inherent power to bring heartache and guilt to others. That's kind of a major difference.
In short, Romeo & Juliet illustrates the irony and waste of suicide, while 13 Reasons celebrates its inherent power to bring heartache and guilt to others. That's kind of a major difference.
107
John: When you were a teenager, did you recognize the irony? It's the glamour of deathless love kids are seeing in that one.
2
Romeo and Juliet are a bit different in that the protagonists' original intent was not to commit suicide. If you remember the play, she drank a potion to "feign" death but because Romeo was misinformed, he thought she had actually died and THAT was why he committed suicide. And then she followed after she woke up and found out what had happened.
(on a separate note, I'm not quite sure why high schools pick that play compared to others; in my school we read the Tempest, Much Ado, Comedy of Errors, McBeth instead)
(on a separate note, I'm not quite sure why high schools pick that play compared to others; in my school we read the Tempest, Much Ado, Comedy of Errors, McBeth instead)
6
"...they aimed to make the drama helpful to struggling kids."
Oh, please. They made the show for the same reason every producer does; to make a lot of money. If they had wanted to help in a real way, they would have a shot a documentary....which would not have made them any money.
Oh, please. They made the show for the same reason every producer does; to make a lot of money. If they had wanted to help in a real way, they would have a shot a documentary....which would not have made them any money.
201
Not all art is about making alot of money. Give it a rest. Americans just dont want to deal with the pain, cruelty and mental illness that pervades our society. Or is there an App to deal with that?
5
I agree with your sentiment Clyde. But remember, this is Netflix, not PBS. Their main goal is to make as much money as possible while "entertaining" the masses. I am extremely sensitive about this topic, so my opinion is grossly biased. I never understood the entertainment value of exploiting suicide. But that's just me. Thanks for your valued comment.
7
A documentary that would have been watched by a fraction of the people who will watch this show? That likely would have done its best but failed at not sounding preachy? That likely would not have made the emotional connection with the huge number of people connecting with this show?
Oh please yourself Clyde.
Oh please yourself Clyde.
This reminds me of the lawsuit over Ozzy Osbourne's song "Suicide Solution" in which the parents of a teenager who had committed suicide claimed the song encouraged him to do so. Ozzy responded that the song was against suicide.
5
My daughter's best friend died by suicide.
She found this show to be appalling beyond belief.
She found this show to be appalling beyond belief.
89
It is art. Lot's of people did not like the documentary "The Bridge" about people jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. I saw it and it was a powerful movie. Sad to say most Americans would rather stick their heads in the sand than deal with reality. Maybe that is why so many Americans treat each other so poorly?
8
Seems a little 'PC' to me.
I have yet to see the show but many of my friends have continued raving to me about it since they first binged it a few weeks ago. I have heard nothing from any of them about having thoughts of suicide after watching the series.
I'm sorry if this sounds callous to those who believe this show is 'dangerous', but if the only thing keeping a loved one from self-harm is not seeing this Netflix series, than you are seriously failing your loved ones and they need to receive proper counseling.
Where do we draw the line people? Millions of people find this Netflix series eye opening and it has sparked conversations in schools about suicide prevention that were not previously being discussed.
I understand the argument, but it's not on the rest of the world to stifle their creativity just in case someone who needs help out there does something reckless when they see it.
Honestly, there are TV-Shows that glorify serial killers and getting away with murder, but we choose to squabble over one that contributes to a national conversation about preventing suicide.
I have yet to see the show but many of my friends have continued raving to me about it since they first binged it a few weeks ago. I have heard nothing from any of them about having thoughts of suicide after watching the series.
I'm sorry if this sounds callous to those who believe this show is 'dangerous', but if the only thing keeping a loved one from self-harm is not seeing this Netflix series, than you are seriously failing your loved ones and they need to receive proper counseling.
Where do we draw the line people? Millions of people find this Netflix series eye opening and it has sparked conversations in schools about suicide prevention that were not previously being discussed.
I understand the argument, but it's not on the rest of the world to stifle their creativity just in case someone who needs help out there does something reckless when they see it.
Honestly, there are TV-Shows that glorify serial killers and getting away with murder, but we choose to squabble over one that contributes to a national conversation about preventing suicide.
105
Not a lot of people are predisposed to becoming serial killers--a lot of kids are predisposed to committing suicide. Even when kids (and adults) watch graphically violent media, they exhibit measurably increased levels of aggression in their behavior. Do we really want to be popularizing a show that might lead vulnerable kids to go over the edge and discourage the types of interventions that could save those kids' lives? Well, that depends on the forseeable effects that the show has upon viewers. Given that people who have watched the show are reporting engaging in suicidal ideation, I think it's reckless to popularize the show and make it easily accessible to vulnerable kids.
I heard about this first from a friend and then from one of my daughter's schools -- we are supposed to ban our kids from seeing this.
Great idea. Except that part about bans never working.
When I was in high school I had no interest in Monty Python until we were told that the Catholic Church banned us from seeing Life of Bryan. So of course I saw the movie at the earliest opportunity.
Great idea. Except that part about bans never working.
When I was in high school I had no interest in Monty Python until we were told that the Catholic Church banned us from seeing Life of Bryan. So of course I saw the movie at the earliest opportunity.
69
Life of Brian was indeed terrific, and it spurred me to ban the Catholic Church for being horribly unfunny. Since that day, I have never watched a Catholic Church show on TV, and this has helped me never commit suicide.
7
Truly, the show should have been done in one episode, wherein Hannah commits suicide offscreen, and then we just see her family and friends try to deal with it. And when a friend finds these vengeance tapes, they should be seen asking what to do about them, and being told, destroy them. Have the mother or someone say, "she's done enough to hurt people permanently and irreparably, I refuse to let her try to get revenge on people she was too cowardly to face down while she was alive".
I think the show as is shouldn't have been done, because it does glorify suicide a bit. One big draw for teens in particular is the expectation that if they kill themselves, then everybody will be sorry about the way they treated the suicider. They picture hundreds of people weeping at their funeral.
What should be stressed instead is that they will be remembered negatively by everyone, forever. They'll have a bad impact on everyone that cared for them, and may cause younger siblings to be in peril of suicide too. And they'll never get to relish their revenge.
I think the show as is shouldn't have been done, because it does glorify suicide a bit. One big draw for teens in particular is the expectation that if they kill themselves, then everybody will be sorry about the way they treated the suicider. They picture hundreds of people weeping at their funeral.
What should be stressed instead is that they will be remembered negatively by everyone, forever. They'll have a bad impact on everyone that cared for them, and may cause younger siblings to be in peril of suicide too. And they'll never get to relish their revenge.
50
This comment is so heartless. People with depression aren't "cowardly"; they have a mental disorder that makes them perceive the world differently - a dark place without much love or understanding from others. It's hard enough to face down bullies or rapists WITHOUT depression! and people who commit suicide are remembered all kinds of ways by different people.
5
Mr. Stackhouse, well said.
A very talented high school actress here in Dallas killed herself last year and her father was dead a week later. Truly horrible. This family has done a lot for the arts, and the deceased were very well liked.
How irresponsible for this series to be a trigger threat.
Who/what should we boycott over this?
A very talented high school actress here in Dallas killed herself last year and her father was dead a week later. Truly horrible. This family has done a lot for the arts, and the deceased were very well liked.
How irresponsible for this series to be a trigger threat.
Who/what should we boycott over this?
2
Well said.
1
Who imagines this is a public service? This is entertainment? Anything for a buck.
24
Or maybe it is about real life? Americans dont want to hear about pain in the so called "greatest country in the world." Deal with it.
3
Dear God, it is strenuous arduous work to convince loved ones that a suicide was not their fault. Planting the blame 13 times, in young kids, is staggeringly thoughtless, ill-informed and dangerous
178
Bingo Bronx girl! You get it.
4
Some cultures have more suicides, others have less. In America it's the second highest cause of death in teens. Something's up. I agree, blame is a dead end, but just saying that it's not your fault when someone kills themselves isn't a solution either. It may be true, but it's not enough.
A teenager especially may see her- or himself as hopelessly at the mercy of others and the whims of life, and suicide, in a perverse way, seems like the only way to reassert control over one’s life: one decision that is entirely one’s own.
32
They may indeed, but (1) suicide is not a romantic or effective form of vengeance - that is a ridiculous and distorted notion; (2) teens do need to be reminded that what is making them suffer or want to stop living CAN be helped, and there are trustable, wiser, professional adults who can help them find real relief (it CAN get better); (3) if someone kills themselves, the folks left to suffer most are those most caring and loving of the deceased, not idiotic/abusive schoolmates. The show may reinforce that abuse is harmful and suffering can be helped. It sounds, however, as if many too young viewers are finding gripping, disturbing, "bingeworthy" entertainment in the horrifying, explicit, and distorted drama. Maybe not the best way to transmit the intended awareness, or indeed accurate/healthier lessons.
7