Flying—whether in coach, first, or in between—is a communal experience. Some people respond to that reality by becoming protectionist, acting to ensure they get their fair share. Others act from a mindset of abundance and are more generous to the needs of others. Both are natural and human, but only the latter enhances the greater good.
1
As the entire airline industry runs on very tight margins, overbooking as a practice is here to stay but it can obviously be handled better and with a spirit of fairness. It seems that a more sensible policy would be to create a system that prevents passengers who are the last to arrive at the gate from boarding when there is an overbooking. It is clearly less disruptive to prevent some passengers from boarding than to physically remove a person from the plane. This system would necessitate a numbered check in system but with the right technology, it is certainly possible. Southwest already employs a numbered check in process that works rather well. The losses in revenue created by the negative PR by this one incident for United would likely justify the expense to launch such a system.
If you're flying for work, getting 4x the airfare doesn't help you at all - the employer gets the money, you get incredibly burdened.
2
Well folks, as a retired airline employee, I can tell you what is happening. The cost of displacement just took a big leap. The practical consequence is that there will be fewer cheap seats to sell, and the airline will reduce the probability of overbooking. We should then see the number of involuntary denied boardings go down. In the next recession or fuel spike, this will likely change as airlines once again struggle with profitability in this highly cyclical business. For now, let's hope the summer will run a little more smoothly on a bit more open capacity.
It would appear that the avistion professors quoted may know aviation, but they apparently do not know the law. Criminal assault on a passenger is not sanctioned by the nebulous following direction of a flight crew, especially when the passenger has not engaged in any threatening behavior. Much like the police, an unlawful order does not become lawful because it was issued by police, much less a flight crew. If you doubt it, let's see if United wants a jury to decide whether their flight crew engaged in lawful orders or they write a very large check to the passenger who was assaulted. Just my 39 years of law practice telling me it will be the latter.
3
I have flown a million plus miles on American and have never had a bad aircrew incident. On the contrary I have had many instances of over-the-top consideration and good treatment. And i do not ever fly first class (except on a rewards ticket). My observation is that pushy boorish and inconsiderate passengers invite a poor response. Also inexperienced fliers may be defensive and react negatively to routine instructions that they are unfamiliar with.
Getting ditched is no fun anywhere, but Chicago is probably the worst airport of the bunch, and I'm a NY-er. I avoid any transfers through Chicago. Period.
2
"Unbundling," as it is referred to here, is because tickets are taxed and fees are not taxed. So anything the airline can claim is a fee and not a ticket is inherently more profitable. And profit triumphs over all!
2
Let's not blame this on 911. I have a trove of letters detailing outrageous airline experiences from the 1990s, a source of mirth to my Millennial employees. Having flown millions of miles during my career, the best description of the airline attitude comes from a colleague: Their mission is to transport cargo in a metal tube. Period.
Fellow cargo, I'm no fan of the good doctor who ignored the commands of uniformed officers and decided to throw a tantrum. But when Charles Manson would have achieved hero status for doing exactly the same thing, the airlines have a problem. Deservedly so.
Fellow cargo, I'm no fan of the good doctor who ignored the commands of uniformed officers and decided to throw a tantrum. But when Charles Manson would have achieved hero status for doing exactly the same thing, the airlines have a problem. Deservedly so.
1
Considering the results of how people cast their votes in this country for what they're getting, it's ludicrous to think any complaints as to airline treatment will hold up any better.
4
I don't have a problem with overbooking and offering volunteers compensation to take a later flight. But these negotiations should take place at the gate, not on the plane.
I don't understand how United staff let too many passengers on the plane then thought they should force one off. I've heard such announcements on planes getting ready to depart, but it still amazes me.
Once you let a passenger on the plane, you shouldn't try to force him/her off. It's bad customer relations, but it also reveals incompetent logistic skills, which is really worrying.
I don't understand how United staff let too many passengers on the plane then thought they should force one off. I've heard such announcements on planes getting ready to depart, but it still amazes me.
Once you let a passenger on the plane, you shouldn't try to force him/her off. It's bad customer relations, but it also reveals incompetent logistic skills, which is really worrying.
8
The public perception of American air carriers, especially United Airlines, is probably not going to change until some real tangible changes become apparent in the senior leadership at the airlines. In the case of United Airlines, that probably means their board of directors and senior managers will need to be replaced. Until then, the only visible effect will be diminishing ridership, and falling stock prices for United Airlines.
I am sure the senior leadership at United Airlines would not like to hear that formerly regular passengers (customers) have told their employers that they would prefer to be fired than to be condemned to take a flight with United. If they don't do much more than what they are currently doing, that is the way things will go.
I am sure the senior leadership at United Airlines would not like to hear that formerly regular passengers (customers) have told their employers that they would prefer to be fired than to be condemned to take a flight with United. If they don't do much more than what they are currently doing, that is the way things will go.
4
Flying on US carriers isn't at all comfortable or fun, Virgin America being the exception, in my experience. (And yes, it never turned a profit whilst it was independent...)
It's a pity that most Americans never get a chance to fly on Australasian, Asian and Middle Eastern airlines, to see that flying in the 21st century need not be misery.
It's a pity that most Americans never get a chance to fly on Australasian, Asian and Middle Eastern airlines, to see that flying in the 21st century need not be misery.
5
This whole episode with United Airlines, just the latest of many, is probably the best argument anyone can make for ubiquitous high-speed inter-city rail.
Build that MAGLEV.
Build that MAGLEV.
10
Sorry, MAGLEV won't help me get to Europe, Asia, or even Hawaii.
1
The violent, and non-violent removal of seated passengers should never happen. Airlines should be fined for over-booking a flight and then bumping passengers. The flight experience might be better on airlines other than United, but United lets you wait list yourself for an upgrade on their website, and clearly states the cost in banked miles and dollars, and that is attractive. Wish all airlines would include the cost of checking luggage right in the ticket price so that boarding would become more efficient. Stop letting passengers stuff overhead bins with large luggage. Stop listing flight duration times that are longer than necessary to fly from point A to point B, so that the airline can claim on-time arrivals even when take-off is delayed an hour or more.
4
United is pretty awful, but American really wins the poison cookie for complete contempt for customers. Flight attendants, gate agents, reservation agents, pilots, baggage handlers, on and on and on. They all work together seamlessly in order to present a company that lets customers know exactly how much they should be ashamed for not flying first or business class.
6
Airline humor. The pilot comes on the PA and announces: "sit back and enjoy the flight."
6
Just please. Just please give us more legroom and wider seats in coach. Do whatever you want with us. Just please, more legroom and wider seats in coach!
10
The problem is that if people were given the choice: Cheaper, more crowded flights or more room for more $$, most people will opt for the cheaper fare. Everyone wants more for less.
4
At the major airline I work at, the company has implemented your very suggestion three separate times in the past thirty years. Every time the option had to be terminated because people will NOT pay for it. People search and select the cheapest seats available (including going to a competitor), which left the offered, more leg room seats empty, or filled at low, yield management fares - making the total aircraft seating configuration unprofitable. Speaking of unprofitable, remember all the major airline bankruptcies? So quit whining and pay up if you want it. It's simple...you get what you pay for in life.
5
Space is money in aviation. There are seats with more legroom and wider seats - they are just not in coach/economy section.
One of the biggest issues is that the airlines are an oligopoly, Either break up the airlines that recently merged or let foreign airlines compete in the US, as long as they use US crews.
11
One thing should be made clear - the United Flight was not overbooked. Incompetent management had failed to anticipate the need to move several of their employees to Louisville. The flight was full so some management idiot came up with the idea of bumping 4 passengers, when he had no right to do so. The contemptuous response by the airline president made it clear where the customer stands with United!
All of this leads me to conclude that it is high time to re-regulate the airline industry. The promise of deregulation was more competition leading to lower fares and better service. We can see how that has worked out! We now have only a couple of major carriers left, flying to fewer destinations, while gouging the customer for every convenience and service. The airlines get enormous subsidies from the public - airports, the air traffic control system, security, etc. The return on investment to the flying public is shrinking like seat space.
I can remember when flying was fun - you could actually stretch out in your seat and get a decent meal on a flight. These days, flying is as pleasant as an Ebola outbreak. For any trip of less than a 1000 miles, I drive, even if it costs more than a flight. If more people avoided flying, we might manage to get the attention of the meatheads running the airlines.
All of this leads me to conclude that it is high time to re-regulate the airline industry. The promise of deregulation was more competition leading to lower fares and better service. We can see how that has worked out! We now have only a couple of major carriers left, flying to fewer destinations, while gouging the customer for every convenience and service. The airlines get enormous subsidies from the public - airports, the air traffic control system, security, etc. The return on investment to the flying public is shrinking like seat space.
I can remember when flying was fun - you could actually stretch out in your seat and get a decent meal on a flight. These days, flying is as pleasant as an Ebola outbreak. For any trip of less than a 1000 miles, I drive, even if it costs more than a flight. If more people avoided flying, we might manage to get the attention of the meatheads running the airlines.
15
Quite apart from what an airline is legally allowed to do is the cost of being stupid.
Offering a voucher to someone who has not boarded is far less egregious than forcing someone who has boarded to deplane. Very few flyers accept deplaning for any reason as legitimate. Hence, the public relations cost, ultimately in real dollars (perhaps only real dollars not made in the future) likely will be much larger than any of several better choices, such as:
1. Offer cash instead of a voucher; especially when denying the last flight of the day--perhaps another carrier has a later flight.
2. Booking bumped passengers on another carrier (seems awful, but the act will gain far more in good will than the minor loss of a couple of flights).
3. Providing hotel and meal vouchers in addition to flight vouchers or cash.
Because there are more than 100 passengers on a flight, there is bound to be a set of financial terms and conditions (perhaps greater than the usual standard--so what?) that will yield the desired number of seats. Whatever the financial terms, they are likely an order of magnitude less than the opportunity cost (real economic value) of social media egg-in-the-face.
Offering a voucher to someone who has not boarded is far less egregious than forcing someone who has boarded to deplane. Very few flyers accept deplaning for any reason as legitimate. Hence, the public relations cost, ultimately in real dollars (perhaps only real dollars not made in the future) likely will be much larger than any of several better choices, such as:
1. Offer cash instead of a voucher; especially when denying the last flight of the day--perhaps another carrier has a later flight.
2. Booking bumped passengers on another carrier (seems awful, but the act will gain far more in good will than the minor loss of a couple of flights).
3. Providing hotel and meal vouchers in addition to flight vouchers or cash.
Because there are more than 100 passengers on a flight, there is bound to be a set of financial terms and conditions (perhaps greater than the usual standard--so what?) that will yield the desired number of seats. Whatever the financial terms, they are likely an order of magnitude less than the opportunity cost (real economic value) of social media egg-in-the-face.
13
Tina Fey nailed it on "30 Rock" years ago in her stand off with Matt Damon, her boyfriend pilot. Classic.
3
as a conservative, may i point out the perils of over-de-regulation (which is not a word - yet).
10
We live in San Francisco and, several years ago, we got tired of the airlines' gouging us for every little thing. And concluded that traveling wasn't worth the irritation and feeling of being exploited. We stopped, cold, our yearly or twice yearly visits to Chicago and New York. Saved ourselves a lot of money, and a whole lot of irritation. And haven't missed any of it. Thank you, airlines, for pushing us to that solution I recommend it to all the other people who feel the way way we used to to. Try it! You'll like it!
16
don't give up yet
It's not giving up. It's realizing that you've been sold a bill of goods and refusing to participate anymore.
3
Air travel is still a great bargain. Same flight 40 years ago...two times what it is today!
I read that just after the United incident, a Southwest flight attendant announced after passengers were boarded that "4 volunteers are needed". Presumably she was joking, of course. But this just highlights the contempt for and hostility toward the public by airline personnel.......for many years, passengers have been threatened that joking about violent matters will not be tolerated and prosecution and prison are threatened to any passenger for such joking.
5
One of the nice things about Southwest is that their personnel don't take themselves quit a seriously as the other airlines. But some people find that offensive also. I don't find a joke threatening. When the flight crew jokes my tension seems to just evaporate.
My first airline flight was 36 years ago, and service and reliability has continually deteriorated. Some airlines are better at customer service than others, for sure, but americans have for too long gone along with the pretense that for-profit enterprises (airlines, insurance companies, amusement parks, real estate firms, automobile dealerships, and so on) are "neighbors" and "friends" rather than simply attempting to make money, first, with whatever service they promise coming second worse. It is "us vs them" when it comes to purchasing services. It is not usually a battle between customers and employees (United excepted, but they are run by a guy who got heart under dodgy circumstances) but it is a battle between customers and systems of unrestrained economic hunger that care nothing for the welfare of the public or their employees. I have worked for decades and have encountered nothing from any economic entity that contradicts this. We must use the lever of political control, once trump and his people are gone, to bend the system toward human good.
7
I think you are incorrect. I think it IS a battle between customers and employees. The inanimate components of airline service have no hostility toward passengers. Whereas the fake friendliness of airline personnel will disappear in an instant if they choose to become upset with you. Then the hostile behavior on their part quickly begins. Their arrogant contempt for the public is similar to that of cops, and for similar reasons. Special laws for the benefit of airlines give them the easy ability to cause you very substantial unpleasantness, inconvenience and expense, just as cops can do since they are essentially above the law.
12
Spot on. Impunity breeds contempt breeds injustice. It's a fairly simple and time tested formula that never fails.
2
You get better service on a bus, same clients, bigger seats, just a longer ride to get to your destination.
AND their wifi is usually free.
AND their wifi is usually free.
8
Hey I just want to say thanks to the pilots and crews of every Southwest flight I've ever been on. Y'all are fine. And thanks again for the two free drinks that time my wife (an M.D.) took care of that young lady who was feeling poorly ... glad it was nothing serious.
All you need is love, people. Ever think of that?
All you need is love, people. Ever think of that?
4
Sometimes all you need is to get home.
9
Many of us who studied and worked in the industry knew that deregulation would eventually result in the monopolization of the industry by a few consolidated megacarriers, which would end in the mass transit mindset we see today. When deregulation occurred, courtesy of Senator Ted Kennedy and Alfred Kahn, the object was to create numerous small carriers filling various geographic and services niches on a competitive basis. Literally dozens of carriers started, and almost all failed. The traveling public is not blameless, everyone wants sterling service for a 99 dollar fare, something that is just not possible given the costs associated with airline operations. The carrier I worked more than two decades for always won top awards but passengers always shopped for the lowest fare, thus leading to its demise. The airlines reward their best customers through loyalty perks and programs that are now being condemned as "classist". I generally commend airline contact personnel for exercising a high degree of professionalism in the face of functioning in what is tantamount to a Wal Mart checkout line.
13
I think that was thanks to Ronald Reagan.
8
No. Airline deregulation occurred under Jimmy Carter.
2
There's a song to go with that.
YouTube: search: "Fascinating Aida Cheap Flights"
YouTube: search: "Fascinating Aida Cheap Flights"
Following deregulation, airlines morphed into mass transit venues not unlike crosstown bus routes. The 9-11 event simply added a militant spin to the indifference and discourtesy travelers were already experiencing. And they are now reaping the level of service they deserve and are willing to pay for.
4
whas 11.com, Louisville, Ky., reported this morning that a bride and groom, going to their wedding, were taken off their half empty United Flight 1737, in Houston, by a U.S. Marshall. Has anyone at NYT heard about it?? If true, another jaw-dropping unbelievable story!
6
No scorpions, at least.
2
Flying is horrible. Airlines encourage poor behavior. Southwest makes a game out of getting an early boarding group, pitting customers against each other. All the airlines I fly allow as much carry on as a person can carry, until the overhead bins are full - then reward the people carrying on too much by letting them check their bags free.
Seats should be assigned. Checked bags should be free. Carry-on bags should be limited in size (in practice, not just in theory) and there should be a charge for carry-on, since carry-on slows both boarding and, especially, disembarking.
Seats should be assigned. Checked bags should be free. Carry-on bags should be limited in size (in practice, not just in theory) and there should be a charge for carry-on, since carry-on slows both boarding and, especially, disembarking.
17
I don't do carry-ons, so I don't worry about getting in an early boarding group. I often don't even get in line until almost everyone is out of the waiting area. One less stressor to deal with! However, there is some stress later at baggage claim over wondering if the bag made it, but 99% of the time it does. We can figure out our own ways to decrease our flight stress.
There is nothing more boring than a story about someone's lousy flight and the abuse they suffered as they were safely transported across the country in a matter of hours.
Perspective, folks. The airlines' service quality is abysmal, the employees rotten, but they have a difficult job, and we all have some accountability for this lousy state of affairs. At the end of the day, they move us and our things across extraordinary distances safely and in relative comfort.
Take a breath, look out the window, and consider the miracle of jet travel.
And please don't ever bend my ear about your lousy flight at cocktail parties.
Perspective, folks. The airlines' service quality is abysmal, the employees rotten, but they have a difficult job, and we all have some accountability for this lousy state of affairs. At the end of the day, they move us and our things across extraordinary distances safely and in relative comfort.
Take a breath, look out the window, and consider the miracle of jet travel.
And please don't ever bend my ear about your lousy flight at cocktail parties.
4
"There is nothing more boring than a story about someone's lousy flight and the abuse they suffered as they were safely transported across the country in a matter of hours."
And yet you felt compelled to read the article?
And yet you felt compelled to read the article?
30
Until it happens to you, right?
7
Right. Because we all want to spend (at least) several hundred dollars for the privilege of being abused, searched, and treated like criminals before we even get on the plane, and then find out we're not even guaranteed the service we paid for. Sorry, but the "miracle" of jet travel may have been unique and exciting in the 1960s, but now it's just another mode of transportation....one where people show up dressed like they're going to the gym (and often smelling like it too).
As to safely transporting us...that's what we're paying for. And as to the airline employees' difficult job...that's what they're paid for. (And yes, I'm married to a former FA, so I know all too well how difficult it can be.) No one has to choose to work for an airline, and as with any job, if you sign on for it, you're expected to fulfill certain requirements, INCLUDING not being a jerk unless a passenger is literally a danger.
As to safely transporting us...that's what we're paying for. And as to the airline employees' difficult job...that's what they're paid for. (And yes, I'm married to a former FA, so I know all too well how difficult it can be.) No one has to choose to work for an airline, and as with any job, if you sign on for it, you're expected to fulfill certain requirements, INCLUDING not being a jerk unless a passenger is literally a danger.
4
The Dr. on United wasn't denied boarding. He was already sitting in the seat he paid for and had a boarding pass for. The flight wasn't overbooked either. The CEO is tone-deaf. United deserves every bit of consumer hatred they are getting.
43
The CEO of United had 2 first class passengers bumped from an outbound flight from Aspen so two VIP's could board. Who were they? The CEO of United and his wife.
13
The entire airline industry must be investigated by as many Federal Government agencies and bureaus as have any jurisdiction whatsoever in the industry. While Congress is no more the consumer's or passenger's friend than the airline industry, itself, is, Congress -- both Houses -- should launch an investigation into the airline industry.
Re-regulation and regulation must be put back into vogue. The airline industry has degraded its customers for far, far too long. The entire industry in every way treats people as if they were criminals. This latest episode with removing Dr. Dao from the plane demonstrates just how physically and psychologically cruel the industry and its employees are.
The industry should be shut down altogether until it is regulated to operate in a humane manner. If we could take all flights out of the air on 9/11, then we can still take all flights out of the air until airlines and the industry treat the paying public with respect, decency and humanity. In the meantime, travel by train.
Re-regulation and regulation must be put back into vogue. The airline industry has degraded its customers for far, far too long. The entire industry in every way treats people as if they were criminals. This latest episode with removing Dr. Dao from the plane demonstrates just how physically and psychologically cruel the industry and its employees are.
The industry should be shut down altogether until it is regulated to operate in a humane manner. If we could take all flights out of the air on 9/11, then we can still take all flights out of the air until airlines and the industry treat the paying public with respect, decency and humanity. In the meantime, travel by train.
9
A little extreme, don't you think? First, we don't have a train system that can take us most of the places we need to go. Second, some of us need to fly for business..and don't mind it. Third, regulation would return us to an era when only the well-to-do could afford to fly.
But hey, if you're volunteering to stay home, great...it was getting a little crowded up there anyway.
But hey, if you're volunteering to stay home, great...it was getting a little crowded up there anyway.
2
Sounds like Seth Kaplan got to write your article. My thought is you take someone who is basically no one special, give them a badge, a stick, maybe a gun, a uni, a law to support whatever they do, and voila! The Ego marches forth.
10
I fly all the time, and airlines are far from perfect. But in my experience, passengers are the problem about 90% of the time. They pack too much, they don't follow instructions (particularly boarding), they take off their shoes and snore loudly, and they subject us to spoiled, unruly children. Worse, they pursue the lowest fare no matter the consequences...then expect better!
I happily find room in my budget for a better flying experience -- whether it's early boarding, an exit row, or an upgraded cabin -- and a big part of that, frankly, is separating myself from the worst of the ill-behaved frugalistas. It's not elitism; it's sanity.
I happily find room in my budget for a better flying experience -- whether it's early boarding, an exit row, or an upgraded cabin -- and a big part of that, frankly, is separating myself from the worst of the ill-behaved frugalistas. It's not elitism; it's sanity.
9
I agree in part. It takes only a handful of passengers to make a flight miserable for others. But let's be real. Those passengers who "overpack" by which I assume you mean those who have oversized carry-on's were supposed to be screened by airline employees and required to check that bag. Hence, this represents a failure of the airline to do its job. Passengers who take off their shoes during a flight? Really? Aren't you the delicate flower. Snoring? Get noise canceling head phones. And so forth. You are fortunate that you are affluent enough to upgrade, but many are not.
14
No, it's elitism.
2
No, it is capitalism. It is not the "socialist skies", you get what you pay for. Many "full" flights I've been on still have empty first-class or business-class seats available.
1
This case may have been an unfortunate incident insofar as the passenger was not innocent. Nonetheless, what goes around comes around. The three major carriers in the United States-Delta, American, and United--treat the traveling public worse than the lab animals they transport in the cargo.
The fees to change a ticket are robbery. Even if you die you cannot get your money back. If it would cost money to breathe the dry stale air in aircraft you would be charged. This is all due to one thing, and it's not Security. It's greed. Greed by CEOS and shareholders who have more money than they know what to do with. They certainly don't pay their workers what they are worth. Nothing will happen with a federal government who looks askance at poor business practices. This is what Americans have gotten with the erosion of organized labor, and rights of workers and customers to be treated as humans, rather than ranch hands herding sheep.
The fees to change a ticket are robbery. Even if you die you cannot get your money back. If it would cost money to breathe the dry stale air in aircraft you would be charged. This is all due to one thing, and it's not Security. It's greed. Greed by CEOS and shareholders who have more money than they know what to do with. They certainly don't pay their workers what they are worth. Nothing will happen with a federal government who looks askance at poor business practices. This is what Americans have gotten with the erosion of organized labor, and rights of workers and customers to be treated as humans, rather than ranch hands herding sheep.
25
That's right--the airlines mistreat their employees and the employees in turn mistreat the passengers. There has not been sufficient attention paid to the behavior of the low-level and middle managers in Chicago who through their own incompetence, recklessness and skinflint behavior escalated this incident. Like middle managers everywhere, they were only doing what they believe their bosses expected.
18
In January, i flew Southwest. My flight was cancelled at the last minute, and I had to spend the night at the airport. Never mind compensation, my request for a pillow and a blanket was denied. I was told plane flights no longer had pillows or blankets. (I hoped to get one from an arriving flight). I ended up sleeping on the airport floor, moving as needed, so they could vacuum around me. In the morning, I carried my carry-on luggage all over the airport trying to determine the fate of my boarded luggage. Eventually, I was able to procure a standby seat and arrived home the next day. I did ask the attendants if there were any accommodations in terms of meals or hotels available to someone such as myself whose flight had been cancelled, but they said no. I was disappointed in Southwest at the time, and now I am I am even more disappointed, wondering if they lied to me about the availability of accommodations.
12
Yes, they lied to you.
15
You can still file for compensation, stating all the facts as happened to you and copy the letter to the Fed. regulators (if they exist). What do you have to lose - at least you get to let off steam, right?
1
Time for a good airline story. I was seated in a middle seat on an Alaska Airlines flight from Anchorage to Seattle - a 4 hour flight. The large woman in the aisle seat next to me had an approx. 1 yr old baby on her lap. The mother fell asleep right after take off and her arm kept falling in my lap. The baby entertained himself by smacking me in the head. I got out of my seat to look for an empty seat I could move to and finding none, went back to the galley and asked the flight attendants if I could stand back there for the next three hours. They said,"Sorry, no. What is the problem". I described the situation and they said "There are some airline employees flying on this flight. We will have one of them take your seat and you can have their seat." I LOVE Alaska Airlines.
21
The fallacy of *competition* leading to better quality and service- is just that. Airlines and numerous other businesses operate on what I call- 'Reverse Competition': If company A is eliminating a service- Company B is going to eliminate two services; Company C will go one better and eliminate 3 more. In the airline industry, not a single airline has gone against that tide. One starts charging for the privilege of putting your bags in the belly of the plane (the same space that was previously free)- another does the same and charges more. Same goes for privilege of "Seating Services". Ancillary profits (food, seat charges,baggage fees) are at an all time high as fuel prices decrease: Greed is the sole motive and comfort and service isn't a needful attribute.
14
UA already had 3 out of the 4 seats that they said they needed. At least 1, and probably 2 of these seats must have been for cabin attendants, who are not an essential part of the flight crew. So why couldn't UA settled for 3 and done w/o the 4th? They probably could have picked up an extra cabin attendant; they're not subject to the in-flight time limitations that pilots & co-pilots are.
8
Many of us have been warning about the burgeoning police state in America. All agencies of law enforcement are taking cover under anti-terrorism laws to enforce a behavioral model that is not compatible with a constitutional Democracy. Each passing day we are looking more and more like our totalitarian and corrupt economic partners in Russia, China and India where a state sponsored police department makes sure the lower classes never challenge or protest authority.
From police killings to brutal corporate enforcement of "terms of service" we see a brutal shift that places the economic values of an intolerant corporate state over fundamental human rights.
Things are going to get worse under Trump as a totalitarian minded legislative and judicial branch moves to take even more freedom away from the middle class and below.
There were so innumerable ways to have solved the problem without violence, yet United chose to send all us little people a message because they felt empowered by a Government that tolerates excessive force against those unable to defend themselves.
Even in response, United's CEO was comfortable projecting a horrifying arrogance that sounded like it came straight from the Kremlin.
From police killings to brutal corporate enforcement of "terms of service" we see a brutal shift that places the economic values of an intolerant corporate state over fundamental human rights.
Things are going to get worse under Trump as a totalitarian minded legislative and judicial branch moves to take even more freedom away from the middle class and below.
There were so innumerable ways to have solved the problem without violence, yet United chose to send all us little people a message because they felt empowered by a Government that tolerates excessive force against those unable to defend themselves.
Even in response, United's CEO was comfortable projecting a horrifying arrogance that sounded like it came straight from the Kremlin.
36
Police state? Trying telling that to people who live in Chicago, for example, where gun crimes and murder are soaring. Not enough police state is more like it.
reply to Chris: False equivalence- but you already know this.
10
@Chris - the most violent city in the US is St Louis followed by Detroit and Birmingham (AL). Chicago is not among the top ten according to the FBI. Don't believe everything you hear or read in the mainstream media.
4
I beg to disagree with one basic premise of the article, that of 9/11: That premise has been used to distraction as an excuse, is over-rated and at this point should be considered irrelevant. It is an excuse used by the airlines and employees to allow for excesses in rudeness by staff, including flight attendants who do not want to be service employees but rather power-soaked dictators. Flight attendants need to be engaged with passengers in a more mature, adult manner, even when passengers so often cannot act so...the idea that they can just stand at the front of the plane and bark out orders like some ridiculous caricature of drill sergeants has gotten very old. How about stationing flight attendants at various points in the passageway to assist passengers who actually may need it, and...so importantly...enforcing a policy that passengers put their overhead bags as near their seats as possible, ending that bit of passenger rudeness. The tactics that are supposedly tied to 9/11 are either mis-directed or just plain dumb. And please, allow us responsible passengers to sign petitions to crack down on drunks in the terminals, who should never board, in support of good flight attendants. I recognize that far too many passengers have become far more juvenile, rude and just plain dumb; that doesn't mean the airlines need to follow suit.
19
You should live in NY. Here it sometimes seems like 9/11 is to blame for everything. Ask a cop a simple question like "do you know when this barricade (like a parade barricade) will come down" and you'll get a smarty pants answer like"lady we're fightiing a war on terror here!" Keep in mind the cop who just said that, before he was so rudely interrupted by you or me, was discussing with his partner whether to go to Dunkin Donuts or elsewhere for their coffee break.
19
Easy does it. The terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001 caused more law enforcement line of duty of deaths than any other single incident in American history. Every day, New York's finest put their lives on the line to protect me, to protect you. And "smarty pants" does not sound like a native New Yorker to me,
3
Right, so now we have to excuse every action by NYPD? Including strangling unarmed loosie sellers?
4
I rarely if ever gripe about airlines but my experience with UA last year was nothing but sheer horror. Instead of respecting the seat selection we had made online, the boarding agent assigned our 2 year old to a seat far and away from either parent on an 11 hour flight from San Francisco to London! Imagine the horror of a 2 year old with a milk bottle by herself in a sea of strangers for 11 hours, not to mention turbulence and emergencies. When I brought this up to the agent in boarding area she dismissively said, "It's too late for any changes, most have boarded and we have no time for that". I raised my voice to explain to her what could happen on the flight when I noticed the US Marshall coming from behind me asking the agent if everything was ok. This is the tragedy of life in America today, and not just in our skies. Even reasoned pleas for sanity are met with military-grade forceful response. My persistence paid off (I would not have boarded or would have disembarked if my 2 year old had been kept separate from both her parents) and another agent went begging inside the plane until someone gave up their seat. I have avoided UA since last year but I could experience this sort of thing again with a different airline. Families with children, elderly, and handicapped are especially vulnerable and I do not see that changing in our airports and in our skies.
34
My experience exactly. United used to be one of the best brands and now it's in the gutter.
United better wake up or they'll be the new Frontier / Spirit but at a premium price.
United better wake up or they'll be the new Frontier / Spirit but at a premium price.
9
I've had a similar experience. This utter disregard for basic civility let alone the most basic level of common sense is rampant on UA and AA and Delta. Sickening! I cannot even imagine that such dictatorial behavior is allowed: the Marshall should have given the FA an ultimatum to be fair and to do fix a situation that clearly needed to be resolved. What a deplorable and bullying way to treat you and your child! Not to mention: is it fair to the strangers to be enlisted to watch your child or administer to her care? There was a time where gate agents would switch seats around to ensure a patent and child were seated together! After all the airlines also claim seat selection is not guaranteed. They only enforce the wrong rule at the wrong time. I think it's their favorite game. I often fly business or first because at my age I simply cannot tolerate the disgusting treatment coupled with squashed seating and filthy bathrooms. Trust me: the FA are just as surly, bossy, nasty and unpleasant per square inch of space as they are only m coach. It is sickening. What happened to you and your baby is just unthinkable. Of course the general selfishness of people has not helped one iota.
17
This happened once to my sister and her small child. The airline evidently thought this was a perfectly sane idea-to sit a small, shy child next to strangers far away from her parent. My sister put her foot down and it seemed the only recourse that day was to move them both up to adjoining first class seats ! And the airline was very snooty about it-as if they were somehow being taken advantage of.
5
simple: overbooking should be illegal. they already charge cancellation fees if passenger doesn't show up so their risk is reduced. they already charge more than the cost of conveyance with premium categories and add on fees so their risk is reduced. there is absolutely no justification to overbook flights and then commandeer someone off a paid-for seat involuntarily.
27
I'm not surprised at this. We live in a zero tolerance America now. The slightest deviance from orders issued by anyone with a modicum of power are to be obeyed instantly or severe repercussions will follow. Do as you are told and don't question it. Don't disagree with a cop, don't let your kids walk a block to school alone or CPS shows up, make sure to show your receipt on the way out of Walmart's so you aren't tackled and smothered...
And as for the opioid problem - in a country where children are suspended from school for chewing a Pop Tart into the shape of a gun (kind of), people just naturally want to get high.
And as for the opioid problem - in a country where children are suspended from school for chewing a Pop Tart into the shape of a gun (kind of), people just naturally want to get high.
12
The airline used "security" as a pretext for their economic decision to get their crew to another town so that it could fly another plane and make the airline a lot of money. This is a gross abuse of power. Who's minding this?
16
What's needed is "Uber Bus" an app that shows you bus routes that go long distances between towns for cheap.
3
I don't fly much, once a year max.
I do not recognize the abusive natures of staff described here.
Delta mis-routed our bags, told us to walk across LaGuardia to retrieve them, we did ,complained, they promised a $50 coupon and then disappeared, pretty dismissive in customer service
Loading a plane is a complicated job, and given the millions or billions of flights, seems somehow to have eluded management or people flow science.
The guy was wrong and should have been locked up and still should be, banned for life, and then some.
The law (imho, layperson, posted in another post) is on UA's side
I do not recognize the abusive natures of staff described here.
Delta mis-routed our bags, told us to walk across LaGuardia to retrieve them, we did ,complained, they promised a $50 coupon and then disappeared, pretty dismissive in customer service
Loading a plane is a complicated job, and given the millions or billions of flights, seems somehow to have eluded management or people flow science.
The guy was wrong and should have been locked up and still should be, banned for life, and then some.
The law (imho, layperson, posted in another post) is on UA's side
1
I hope this is a joke.
5
Sorry slick but this passenger was not wrong. He had already boarded. What would have happened if a dozen or so passengers had intervened and protected this man. Instead the others did nothing but wail and take video.
What would have happened if the two other officers had intervened and told the 3rd that this conduct was inappropriate (excessive) and had come to the passenger's defense. Instead they were complicit by failing to intervene.
What would have happened if someone from the flight crew or the Captain (it is his plane and he is in charge). Instead they were curiously absent and did nothing.
Plenty of people could have done something to prvent this from happening. Instead all di nothing and allwed this guy to get dragged off and injured in the process. Sad state of arrears and discouraging to say the least.
What would have happened if the two other officers had intervened and told the 3rd that this conduct was inappropriate (excessive) and had come to the passenger's defense. Instead they were complicit by failing to intervene.
What would have happened if someone from the flight crew or the Captain (it is his plane and he is in charge). Instead they were curiously absent and did nothing.
Plenty of people could have done something to prvent this from happening. Instead all di nothing and allwed this guy to get dragged off and injured in the process. Sad state of arrears and discouraging to say the least.
11
Of course the law is on UA's side. Laws are written by corporate lobbyists and passed by our "representatives" in return for campaign contributions. That's why you can go to prison for copying a DVD.
7
The next time United decides to beat up on the passengers, the rest of us on the plane will revolt.
16
I'm sorry, but this has NOTHING to do with 9/11 or what has transcribed the airline industry.
Sure, airline security has become so ridiculously tight on regular passengers (the 99.99999% who fly), yet even such tight security would never have been able to prevent the determined nutjob or terrorist. This has been true not just for airline travel, but other transportations like train, where a number of terrorist plots had actually been foiled due to concerted efforts from passengers, rather than tight security screening them out.
As to the outrageous treatment of a fare-paying customer, dragging him off by violence force, this has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with airline security. It's ALL about airline profit. UA had initially LIED about it, saying it's oversold seats, but it's not. It's LIED about the passenger being belligerent, but he had not (he was simply agitated when he was yanked from his seat, and who can blame him?!?). It's LIED because UA wanted to get a few crew member to the other airport, so that it won't have to lead to other canceled flights. Whichever way you look at it, it's all about maintaining profit over anything, EVEN IF it means bloodying a customer, treating him like a terrorist when he's not.
The way UA has treated the passenger is absolutely deplorable. No matter that UA has all the "legal protection" to do whatever it wants. I'm so glad to see the huge social backlash against UA, plummeting stock price. As customer, I'll vote with my feet.
Sure, airline security has become so ridiculously tight on regular passengers (the 99.99999% who fly), yet even such tight security would never have been able to prevent the determined nutjob or terrorist. This has been true not just for airline travel, but other transportations like train, where a number of terrorist plots had actually been foiled due to concerted efforts from passengers, rather than tight security screening them out.
As to the outrageous treatment of a fare-paying customer, dragging him off by violence force, this has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with airline security. It's ALL about airline profit. UA had initially LIED about it, saying it's oversold seats, but it's not. It's LIED about the passenger being belligerent, but he had not (he was simply agitated when he was yanked from his seat, and who can blame him?!?). It's LIED because UA wanted to get a few crew member to the other airport, so that it won't have to lead to other canceled flights. Whichever way you look at it, it's all about maintaining profit over anything, EVEN IF it means bloodying a customer, treating him like a terrorist when he's not.
The way UA has treated the passenger is absolutely deplorable. No matter that UA has all the "legal protection" to do whatever it wants. I'm so glad to see the huge social backlash against UA, plummeting stock price. As customer, I'll vote with my feet.
27
OK, this was certainly an unfortunate circumstance that progressed into truly stupid actions by airline and security personel.
But for all those who confuse access to an airline seat with human rights, let's compare getting "re-accommodated" to getting evicted from your hotel or apartment. In all cases, you have signed a contract, and paid for services as described by the contract. And whether you like it or not, the contract defines what the vendor may do under specific circumstances. If you refuse to vacate your hotel room, what do you think will happen? And apartment or rental house evictions, classically conducted by the sheriff, should be expected after you stop paying rent.
The vendor certainly risks bad publicity and future sales, but contract parties in violation of terms are subject to unpleasant consequences.
But for all those who confuse access to an airline seat with human rights, let's compare getting "re-accommodated" to getting evicted from your hotel or apartment. In all cases, you have signed a contract, and paid for services as described by the contract. And whether you like it or not, the contract defines what the vendor may do under specific circumstances. If you refuse to vacate your hotel room, what do you think will happen? And apartment or rental house evictions, classically conducted by the sheriff, should be expected after you stop paying rent.
The vendor certainly risks bad publicity and future sales, but contract parties in violation of terms are subject to unpleasant consequences.
1
If you refuse to vacate your hotel room nothing will happen. The front desk will tell whoever was suppposed to have your room the next night they're sorry but guests have overstayed and will offer to find you a room elsewhere. In the case of nonpayment of rent, don't know what jurisdiction you're talking about, but there is generally a well defined legal process for that -- the landlord cannot just call the sherriff -- must go to court and in NY it could take up to a year or more to get the order the sherriff would need to kick someone out.
In the case of southern lunch counters in the 50s and 60s, I can only assume you would argue white people had a contract with Woolworth's to allow them to enjoy a burger at the lunch counter whenever they wanted free of the annoyance of black people, and the black people sitting and refusing to leave the lunch counters on the grounds they were exercising their civil rights under the US constitution were simply interfering with white people's consumer contracts.
In the case of southern lunch counters in the 50s and 60s, I can only assume you would argue white people had a contract with Woolworth's to allow them to enjoy a burger at the lunch counter whenever they wanted free of the annoyance of black people, and the black people sitting and refusing to leave the lunch counters on the grounds they were exercising their civil rights under the US constitution were simply interfering with white people's consumer contracts.
7
You are comparing apples and oranges. In most, if not all, states, you have due process rights in eviction proceedings. None of this existed in the United case of dragging a passenger from his assigned seat.
11
common sense...
In 1929, Clement Keys, of North American Aviation, stated that “90% of aviation is on the ground.” Then, he was emphasizing good training, good aircraft and engine construction.
Today, one could adopt that quote to the entire process of flying. From the time one books their flight, until the time travelers remove their luggage from the carousel and hop into an Uber, each part of the process is one step away from a catastrophe.
Airlines, airports and even concessions have not a clue about customer service. I can go to Nordstroms, buy a pair of shoes, wear them and return them if they hurt my feet. Yet, if I buy a ticket from NY to LA and come down with a deadly disease, I have to "eat" the ticket or pay hundreds more to change it. Airfares make no sense; it's cheaper to fly to London than it is from Detroit to Cincinnati. Security is a joke: my friend had to undergo a complete pat down, forcing her out of a wheelchair though she had a compound leg fracture. The TSA agent only stopped when she patted down her breasts and learned the passenger had breast implants (cancer.)
Airports pretend they care about their customers but again, it's aviation theater. Use a bathroom at night in a major airport? Filthy...TSA PreCheck at Boston Logan after 6:30 PM? Closed...At Providence, when there are delays, all concessions close at 8 PM,
Yes, "aviation is 90% on the ground." Now, airports and airlines - try to improve it by caring about your passengers.
Today, one could adopt that quote to the entire process of flying. From the time one books their flight, until the time travelers remove their luggage from the carousel and hop into an Uber, each part of the process is one step away from a catastrophe.
Airlines, airports and even concessions have not a clue about customer service. I can go to Nordstroms, buy a pair of shoes, wear them and return them if they hurt my feet. Yet, if I buy a ticket from NY to LA and come down with a deadly disease, I have to "eat" the ticket or pay hundreds more to change it. Airfares make no sense; it's cheaper to fly to London than it is from Detroit to Cincinnati. Security is a joke: my friend had to undergo a complete pat down, forcing her out of a wheelchair though she had a compound leg fracture. The TSA agent only stopped when she patted down her breasts and learned the passenger had breast implants (cancer.)
Airports pretend they care about their customers but again, it's aviation theater. Use a bathroom at night in a major airport? Filthy...TSA PreCheck at Boston Logan after 6:30 PM? Closed...At Providence, when there are delays, all concessions close at 8 PM,
Yes, "aviation is 90% on the ground." Now, airports and airlines - try to improve it by caring about your passengers.
31
Even this article continues the indignity of treating readers who are, most likely also airline passengers, as vapid imbeciles. Do we really need a quote from a professor of sociology explaining that people get angry and frustrated when they feel a situation is unfair?
I feel at least part of the problem is that there is little respect left in social situations for adult dialogue. For people to discuss situations rather than be spoken to like a four-year old.
Do we need research to tell us that people get angry about that as well?
I feel at least part of the problem is that there is little respect left in social situations for adult dialogue. For people to discuss situations rather than be spoken to like a four-year old.
Do we need research to tell us that people get angry about that as well?
18
In addition to the factors mentioned in the article and by some of the comments, the hostile environment is also a function of overworked and underpaid employees, both flight and ground, at the airlines that operate the United Express and American Eagle flights. They are basically kids who aren't paid much more than the minimum wage. Lack of experience, maturity and exhaustion increase the chance for small things to be escalated.
14
"They are basically kids who aren't paid much more than the minimum wage."
Jo you obviously don't fly United. The typical United flight attendant is geriatric.
Jo you obviously don't fly United. The typical United flight attendant is geriatric.
4
I believe the whole, sorry United incident was handled very badly. The normal practice is to announce the over booking problem while passengers are in the lounge, and then offer other flights, compensation or whatever...which gives people time to make a decision. But, to announce the need for 4 passengers to get off and take a later flight while they are already seated in the plane, in an arbitrary fashion, and when someone says he can't because he has a perfectly legitimate reason for not wanting to change flights....then the airport call on 2 large thugs to come and take the person off the plane....and use whatever kind of force they feel is at their disposal. That is not how a civilized society behaves....but maybe it is another sign of Trump's new America?
37
I don't believe that the removal pf passengers was arbitrary. They most likely selected those without premium status, those in coach, those who checked in the latest and those that paid the lowest price for their tickets. You can bet that no first class, elite status passengers were asked to leave. That being said, in December, two first class passengers were selected to be removed from an outbound flight from Aspen so two "Very Important People" could board. Who were these VIPs? United President Oscar Munoz and his wife.
21
That just about says it all
10
Ironically, they probably would have gotten all the "volunteers" they needed if they had made an offer tailored to the greed of those passengers constantly on the lookout for ways to upgrade their elite status "tiers," If they had included in their offer one tailored to FF club members -- like 25,000 or even 50,000 actual flight miles that would count in determining next year's "tier" -- there would likely have been a stampede from the front of the plane, with all those Ryan Bingham types trampling each other to get to the head of the voluntary bumper line.
5
The ultimate irony is that this airline, United, is run by a man who has his life only thanks to extreme generosity and kindness of an organ donor and/or his/her loved ones who authorized the donation of the heart that now beats in his chest (Oscar Munoz suffered a massive heart attack a few weeks after being appointed United CEO in 2015 and required a heart transplant). It would be nice if he could bring some of that generosity and kindness to the airline he runs but alas, that is far too much to ask for in this corporate centered, Wall Street dictated time!
44
One of the major issues is that you are giving a ton of power to people who are also tasked with serving drinks and collecting garbage. There is an imbalance. Is the Flight Attendant a waitress or a cop? In no other place in our human existence do we try to merge such divergent responsibilities.
9
Unfriendly skies may go back to 9/11 but the security burden is most unequally distributed.
This is a problem. The rich are entitled to have better seats, but they are not entitled to their unequal share of National Security
Average American are forced to densely queue up, sometimes for hours, with unchecked luggage in front of TSA - forming a perfect target for airport suicide attacks. A lot of explosives fit into a roll-on
The better off get whisked through first pass angers only security lines
The ueberich are exempt. No TSA check for private planes, no matter how heavy and how much fueled up.
To be very clear: TSA is mostly Kabuki - anyone bend an destroying the new World Trade Center can set up a bogus Export Import company, that then leases a private jet as a company jet and without any check fly it into building.
And in the case of airport attacks counter productive. Baggage check needs to be peripheral, as in Israel.
This is a problem. The rich are entitled to have better seats, but they are not entitled to their unequal share of National Security
Average American are forced to densely queue up, sometimes for hours, with unchecked luggage in front of TSA - forming a perfect target for airport suicide attacks. A lot of explosives fit into a roll-on
The better off get whisked through first pass angers only security lines
The ueberich are exempt. No TSA check for private planes, no matter how heavy and how much fueled up.
To be very clear: TSA is mostly Kabuki - anyone bend an destroying the new World Trade Center can set up a bogus Export Import company, that then leases a private jet as a company jet and without any check fly it into building.
And in the case of airport attacks counter productive. Baggage check needs to be peripheral, as in Israel.
13
One of the things US carriers need to do to give everyone a better experience is stop handing out upgrades right and left tot he "Ryan Binghams" of the world. 85% of people flying posh class on US carriers haven't paid posh class fares. I think there is a strong link between the much stricter FF plans of international airlines (a higher percentage of their posh class passengers pay posh class fares) and the superior service people note on them in ALL classes of service.
1
But security theater is designed to appease the masses. Back when the TSA was created, and started all the annoying (and mostly ineffective) processes we all hate, the most consistent approvals came from people who did not even fly, or at most flew once or twice a year. These are the same people who suspect terrorists behind every tree, but unfortunately do make up a large enough part of the airlines target market.
6
No idea what you just said . . .
1
This is what makes America (business) great. Among developed countries American consumers enjoy the worst airlines, the worst public transportation, the worst health care system, the worst infrastructure etc. etc.but most are convinced that they are the best and keep paying one way or another for sub-par service.
47
I heard an interesting statistic the other day. Americans are always complaining about "high taxes," but our taxes are only about the 35th highest in the world. People in countries with higher taxes don't complain as much, and get much more in health care, education, infrastructure, public trans, etc. I also suspect they don't complain as much about their airlines.
12
My primary issue is seat space. I am 6'3" and am required to sit in a space that seems designed for someone about 5'7". On a recent flight i was having severe knee pain (I am 72 years old) so i extended my legs from time to time into the aisle. An attendant with the demeanor of a jail guard soon came along and ordered me to jam my legs back into the rear of the seat in front of me even though i was careful not to extend my legs into the aisle unless there was no aisle traffic. Then, for the balance of the trip, i had to sneak my legs into the aisle from time to time to relieve the pain and hope i would not get busted by the guard (er ... attendant). A lousy experience.
34
You are way too big as one of the regular "packed sardines" in the flight seats in economy rows these days. Then again, if airlines like UA won't even care if a passenger gets a bloodied nose or broken teeth to free up seats whenever it wants, why would you think they care if your seat gets too cramped to accommodate your larger-than-average body frame?
10
the article does a terrible job of not distinguishing between domestic and international flights. the best airlines in the world are not in the US. http://www.airlinequality.com/ratings/5-star-airline-ratings/
the government would do american consumers a great service - and US airlines a great disservice - by allowing these airlines to fly domestic flights.
the government would do american consumers a great service - and US airlines a great disservice - by allowing these airlines to fly domestic flights.
15
One of the reasons the best airlines in the world are not US based is that they are not wasting as much money and resources on frequent flyer plans and not giving away as many upper class upgrades to the Ryan Binghams ("Up in the Air") of the world. On the foreign airlines a much higher percentage of passengers actually pay upper class fares -- in the US only about 15% of the passengers flying upper class have actually paid upperclass fares.
1
I do not believe the press got this right. This person refused to get off a plane that needed the space for a crew that had to be somewhere so that the flight they were supposed to be on would not be cancelled. That is how the system works, inconvenience one man or 100 people, tying up everything. It was not the airline employees who took this man off, it was TSA and that is their right. This man acted unreasonable, and had to be dragged of because of his behaviour. You nor I would not have acted this way, we would have left the plane as told. And what about the other passengers who were gleefully watching this, why didn't they volunteer to avoid such a situation. It is not law enforcement that did not know how to handle this situation, it was the passengers on the plane. They could have avoided this situation.
7
Easy to say that from your living room chair.
8
It's very easy when we are on the outside, looking in, to pass comment on a situation. This individual had patients that he needed to see the next day. Had this request been made at the gate, then yes, you would be fair in what you say, however it did not. United wanted a paying customer removed from a flight that they oversold and got caught with not enough seats when the music stopped. That would be like you being asked to pay for a meal at a fast food restaurant and then being told you can't have it because they gave the last one to a customer who arrived after you.
13
I'd accept your facts, but I'd put a different spin on them. The airline failed to have flight crew positioned correctly in St. Louis and lacked enough resiliency in their system to avoid inconveniencing a full flight in Chicago (and did we hear what the 2 hour delay did to the flight out of St. Louis?). Being down a flight crew is a foreseeable problem (and being down a crew of 4 implies it wasn't someone calling in sick). Unless there's only one United flight in and out of St. Louis, there were other crews in St. Louis, even if it might have lead to a scheduling headache the next day. So, United's actions might have been legal, but from a customer service point of view, it was still a fail. From where I stand, it's mismanagement - United corporate cutting things so close to the bone that they can't deal with foreseeable issues. Their "solution" is to dump corporate mismanagement onto subcontractors (the regional air carrier) and then onto employees who are not allowed to make decisions (offer a flat $400 voucher for a future flight - which is pretty low-balled, but apparently United's corporate policy, and then $800 - United says it went to $1000 but none of the accounts from witnesses back that up) It seems like a lot of folks saying "not my problem, take it or leave it" This might be a way to maximize profits but it's not a way to provide customer service.
16
It takes a Vietnamese doctor to act as every American should and refuse to have his legal rights abridged. Dr. Dao is a true hero and patriot in showing the rest of us craven Americans how to stand up for our rights.
26
He is of Vietnamese descent, but he's fully an American. Why do you sound so surprised that any American, regardless of their ethnicity, would act on his/her right?
3
I'll bet he was not even aware of his rights. He simply did not want to co-operate, so he didn't. He would not have been injured if he walked off the plane. It was his decision to go limp and because of that decision, he got injured. To all of you outraged people - get over yourselves and try to behave like civilized human beings. Perhaps if people didn't act like entitled brats, flying would be a more pleasant experience for everyone.
2
I hope to see a nationwide network of HyperLoop routes. Should make weather a non-issue, and also will be run by new computers as opposed to the networks of ancient marginally-functional machines now in use and causing problems from time to time. There will still be security issues but each leg of the trip will likely be about 20 or 30 minutes. I can put up with a lot for that short a time.
4
The article states, "According to the Bureau of Transportation Statistics, the average domestic fare in 1995 in today’s dollars was $459. In 2016, the average was $349, down nearly 24 percent."
It is not clear what that statistic shows. In part it is an "apples and oranges" comparison since things such as baggage charges, seat assignment charges, and seat size are all different than they were 20 years ago.
Just as importantly, the average change in fares does not necessarily generalize across different cities and routes. The effects of market consolidation have been very uneven, and least well off areas have been in many cases hardest hit. Large volume markets and routes may still see competitive pressures that have moved prices down, but if you live in a smaller market where competition has mostly disappeared (e.g. Syracuse NY) fares are in fact a lot higher than 20 years ago. We get worse service and higher prices! No trade-offs here.
I spend a lot of time online to find best fares I can, but often see that one can often fly 3,000 miles from NY to LA for half of what I would have to pay to fly 500 miles to another east coast city from Syracuse.
It is not clear what that statistic shows. In part it is an "apples and oranges" comparison since things such as baggage charges, seat assignment charges, and seat size are all different than they were 20 years ago.
Just as importantly, the average change in fares does not necessarily generalize across different cities and routes. The effects of market consolidation have been very uneven, and least well off areas have been in many cases hardest hit. Large volume markets and routes may still see competitive pressures that have moved prices down, but if you live in a smaller market where competition has mostly disappeared (e.g. Syracuse NY) fares are in fact a lot higher than 20 years ago. We get worse service and higher prices! No trade-offs here.
I spend a lot of time online to find best fares I can, but often see that one can often fly 3,000 miles from NY to LA for half of what I would have to pay to fly 500 miles to another east coast city from Syracuse.
16
This is absolutely correct. The great consolidation of the airline industry that the Justice Department approved did not greatly affect travel between major hubs like New York, LA, and Washington DC, but is sure affected midsize and smaller cities like Louisville, Syracuse, and Indianapolis, which now have little competition. This is allowed service to midsize markets to deteriorate.
I remember reading that the airlines were careful to maintain service at the Washington DC airports, which serve the Department of Justice regulators and politicians that approved the mergers.
I remember reading that the airlines were careful to maintain service at the Washington DC airports, which serve the Department of Justice regulators and politicians that approved the mergers.
8
The general decline in customer service is in line with the deregulation that forces the decline in fare price. As customers, we used to expect the world (given the high fare price in days yonder). And then, prices came down, airlines have to make up the margin with volume (the walmart approach), necessitating the packing of more customers in the same space like packed sardines.
One way or the other, something's gotta give. You either pay more, and maintain the service level. Or you pay a heck of a lot less, and you get treated like dirt. Unfortunately for Dao, he's become the exhibit A for the latter case, which in all accounts, can happen to any one of us when we fly. There is no longer any guarantee that you will be treated like a human being.
One way or the other, something's gotta give. You either pay more, and maintain the service level. Or you pay a heck of a lot less, and you get treated like dirt. Unfortunately for Dao, he's become the exhibit A for the latter case, which in all accounts, can happen to any one of us when we fly. There is no longer any guarantee that you will be treated like a human being.
4
Agreed. I live in what is referred to as a second-tier city in the Midwest. I often find it would be cheaper to fly to Europe than another U.S. city. And since an international flight allows me to fly a foreign airlines, it will undoubtedly be a better experience.
5
It's a pity that passenger rail travel is so terribly hobbled, and that the administration is further reducing services. With a little support it could take "pressure" off both airlines and highways...
14
I've been flying commercially since 1970. Back then TWA, PSA, National, Eastern, Pan Am, Northwest Orient - later People's Express - were some of the government regulated airlines. There was no TSA and the seats were most definitely more comfortable. It was not uncommon back then to be on an aircraft for hours on end enveloped in a thick cloud of poisonous cigarette smoke. The food on board was no better or worse than it is now. The reservations and gate agents and flight attendants (stewardesses) were just as inefficient, arrogant and rude as they are now. For sure, there were and are always exceptions that offer amazing customer service. What happened to Mr. (Dr.?) Dao is unfortunate, but thank goodness the incident was recorded. Will the airline industry and its practices and personnel change for the benefit of their customers? Unfortunately, most likely not.
7
Why do you question whether this physician is a doctor? The media coverage of the incident has made it quite clear that he was intent on returning home to see his patients the next day. Granted he had prior issues with his medical license, however that has been apparently rectified, and I totally get it that he doesn't want any more problems with the state licensure board, such as not being available for his patients.
3
I don't believe People's Express existed in 1970,before deregulation, as I think it was as a result of deregulation, in about 1979, that People's Express came into being. The TSA may not have existed, but I recall security and being screened by hand and otherwise at PSA, because hijacking was a threat throughout the 50s and 70s.
One thing I remember about that period is more leg room in coach and the chasm between coach and first class (if the airline had it) not being as great. Fare differential between coach and first class maybe 20% and people paid it, because the airlines weren't handing out upgrades left and right to all the Ryan Binghams of the world. (also no ff plans then; maybe time to get rid of them.)
One thing I remember about that period is more leg room in coach and the chasm between coach and first class (if the airline had it) not being as great. Fare differential between coach and first class maybe 20% and people paid it, because the airlines weren't handing out upgrades left and right to all the Ryan Binghams of the world. (also no ff plans then; maybe time to get rid of them.)
I don't know about you, but I have to say, international flights are generally still ok (it used to be great), but domestic flights have gone down the drain. Flying domestic is more like an airborne version of greyhound these days, there is nothing glamorous about flying domestic (even if you're in business or premium seats) at all. First class is of course still good, but how many of us would really pay for a first-class ticket price to fly domestic anyways?
1
As someone who flies about every other day mostly long hauls between Asia and Europe or the Middle East I have to say that this kind of issue simply shows how US society is breaking apart.
Flying in Asia or Europe is much more relaxed than in the US.
No TSA hulks which do resemble more an intimidating Stasi or SS squadron than a security service, long lines of people waiting before check ins and security and later on boarding into a tin can with little or no service but filled to the brim.
A constant fight between cabin crews, badly trained, overworked and underpaid, and passengers, already fed up with what they had to endure just to get on board this tin can.
All that shows that there has something gone amiss that is still the norm in Europe and Asia, that flying is a service and a service industry.
This is not just about flying in the US, which I have to do every few weeks and loathe.
This starts at the US border or to be precise when getting a visa for the "Land of the Free".
Getting into the USSR was by far more pleasant than to get into the US these days.
Even flying on Aeroflot was more relaxed than flying in he US today and I don't even ever fly coach.
Maybe it is time to take a step back, rise some prices and learn from others, like Singapore Airlines, how to run a decent airline even at a rather good profit.
Time to re-learn the meaning of being a service industry for the customer and not running a flying prison system against some nuisance called passenger.
Flying in Asia or Europe is much more relaxed than in the US.
No TSA hulks which do resemble more an intimidating Stasi or SS squadron than a security service, long lines of people waiting before check ins and security and later on boarding into a tin can with little or no service but filled to the brim.
A constant fight between cabin crews, badly trained, overworked and underpaid, and passengers, already fed up with what they had to endure just to get on board this tin can.
All that shows that there has something gone amiss that is still the norm in Europe and Asia, that flying is a service and a service industry.
This is not just about flying in the US, which I have to do every few weeks and loathe.
This starts at the US border or to be precise when getting a visa for the "Land of the Free".
Getting into the USSR was by far more pleasant than to get into the US these days.
Even flying on Aeroflot was more relaxed than flying in he US today and I don't even ever fly coach.
Maybe it is time to take a step back, rise some prices and learn from others, like Singapore Airlines, how to run a decent airline even at a rather good profit.
Time to re-learn the meaning of being a service industry for the customer and not running a flying prison system against some nuisance called passenger.
29
Unfortunately I have to agree with you. Flying within US borders is decidedly a stressful experience. And while we're at it, I have to say too, that generally air-hostesses in domestic US flights are rude. Customers are not treated as if they are paying customers, but schoolchildren or some cattle herd that should be marched on wherever they are pushed, and they are not supposed to voice any complaints (which essentially is what that jerk of a UA CEO is blaming this bloodied victim for).
US has fallen on the wayside long time ago, with crumbling in a lot of airports, cramped planes, cranky staff, and highly intrusive airport security. Although one could argue that the last point cannot be helped, but we as society (and as customers) have traded in all those former points (in terms of service levels) with ever-lower ticket price. That's what it has come down to.
US has fallen on the wayside long time ago, with crumbling in a lot of airports, cramped planes, cranky staff, and highly intrusive airport security. Although one could argue that the last point cannot be helped, but we as society (and as customers) have traded in all those former points (in terms of service levels) with ever-lower ticket price. That's what it has come down to.
5
And both entities here have special protected legal status, compared to other global markets. Only US carriers can fly internal routes, and only union workers staff the US cabins.
Perhaps we need some disruption of protected status to promote competition and shift the focus towards better service.
Perhaps we need some disruption of protected status to promote competition and shift the focus towards better service.
Schaeffer v. Cavallero
United States District Court, S.D. New York.June 29, 1999, 54 F.Supp.2d 350
Passenger who was instructed by authorized airline representative to leave plane had duty to obey. 49 U.S.C.A. § 44902; 14 C.F.R. § 91.11
Passenger, who refused to leave plane when requested to do so by authorized airline representative, assumed and consented to risk of injury arising from his removal, and released airline from liability for any damages that could have been eliminated by reasonable conduct on his part. 49 U.S.C.A. § 44902.
Plaintiff suffered these alleged torts only after an airline employee not otherwise involved in the incident politely told him that he “was going to have to leave the airplane or we are going to have to call the police,” tr. at 62, to which plaintiff responded, “You are going to have to call the police,” id. However, once instructed by an authorized airline representative to leave the plane, the plaintiff had a duty to obey. See Williams 509 F.2d at 945; 49 U.S.C. § 44902; see generally 14 C.F.R. § 91.11. By, instead, choosing not to disembark on his own and, rather, demanding that he be escorted off by the police, the plaintiff brought upon himself the “battery” and “false imprisonment” he seeks to attribute to the defendants.
-
(but see: "(1) reasonable jurors could find that airline acted in arbitrary and capricious manner in removing passenger on grounds of safety risk, , leading to damage claim...)
==
United States District Court, S.D. New York.June 29, 1999, 54 F.Supp.2d 350
Passenger who was instructed by authorized airline representative to leave plane had duty to obey. 49 U.S.C.A. § 44902; 14 C.F.R. § 91.11
Passenger, who refused to leave plane when requested to do so by authorized airline representative, assumed and consented to risk of injury arising from his removal, and released airline from liability for any damages that could have been eliminated by reasonable conduct on his part. 49 U.S.C.A. § 44902.
Plaintiff suffered these alleged torts only after an airline employee not otherwise involved in the incident politely told him that he “was going to have to leave the airplane or we are going to have to call the police,” tr. at 62, to which plaintiff responded, “You are going to have to call the police,” id. However, once instructed by an authorized airline representative to leave the plane, the plaintiff had a duty to obey. See Williams 509 F.2d at 945; 49 U.S.C. § 44902; see generally 14 C.F.R. § 91.11. By, instead, choosing not to disembark on his own and, rather, demanding that he be escorted off by the police, the plaintiff brought upon himself the “battery” and “false imprisonment” he seeks to attribute to the defendants.
-
(but see: "(1) reasonable jurors could find that airline acted in arbitrary and capricious manner in removing passenger on grounds of safety risk, , leading to damage claim...)
==
7
And your point is???
4
PghCat Pittsburgh, PA
And your point is???
= =
"Passenger who was instructed by authorized airline representative to leave plane had duty to obey. 49 U.S.C.A. § 44902; 14 C.F.R. § 91.11"
what is the hard part? -- passenger who was instructed by authorized airline representative to leave the plane had duty to obey
Federal law USCA is United States Code Annotated
The issue for some is that once on, home free
NOT
And when you resist, you are on your own;
was excessive force used? don't know, I am a fan of all necessary force, your mileage may vary, as it were.
=
Dao was in the wrong to refuse and should be prosecuted with interference with aircraft operations (broadly construed)
Turns out, UA HAS an aggressive policy for disrupters, per a few lawsuits that have emerged
And your point is???
= =
"Passenger who was instructed by authorized airline representative to leave plane had duty to obey. 49 U.S.C.A. § 44902; 14 C.F.R. § 91.11"
what is the hard part? -- passenger who was instructed by authorized airline representative to leave the plane had duty to obey
Federal law USCA is United States Code Annotated
The issue for some is that once on, home free
NOT
And when you resist, you are on your own;
was excessive force used? don't know, I am a fan of all necessary force, your mileage may vary, as it were.
=
Dao was in the wrong to refuse and should be prosecuted with interference with aircraft operations (broadly construed)
Turns out, UA HAS an aggressive policy for disrupters, per a few lawsuits that have emerged
You failed to mention that the passenger in this case was instructed to leave because he was being disruptive. In this case, United Airlnes wanted to make money so they used and abused their power against a non-disruptive customer. They should have offered more until someone accepted their offer. Shame on them.
2
Most discussions and media coverage miss the main issues surrounding United’s passenger ejection fiasco – not having enough, or the right, management oversight for exceptions and the economic game airlines play now. More oversight is needed to simply ensure multiple people have to weigh in on decisions adversely affecting any passenger.
The airlines will almost never lose dollars at the overbooking carnival game they play. When a passenger is compensated for taking another flight that cost will often be less than the most expensive ticket sold in the same cabin. And just finding the bump-able passenger will be easier with Economy basic fares being rolled out – those folks will not have seats to begin with. Even now, in Economy, United will sell seats even if a seat assignment is not available, especially when Economy Plus seats are not sold out.
Two changes can make the compensation a little bit fairer, including raising the dollar limits on what they can offer like Delta has done. First, the compensation “voucher” for volunteers should be usable for anything the airlines sell, including upgrades and club passes (nicer way to spend the time while waiting for the later flight). Secondly, the cash compensation offered when involuntarily bumped should be without limit at four times the cost of the most expensive ticket sold in the passenger’s cabin, better penalizing the airline for selling expensive last minute tickets that result in overbooking.
The airlines will almost never lose dollars at the overbooking carnival game they play. When a passenger is compensated for taking another flight that cost will often be less than the most expensive ticket sold in the same cabin. And just finding the bump-able passenger will be easier with Economy basic fares being rolled out – those folks will not have seats to begin with. Even now, in Economy, United will sell seats even if a seat assignment is not available, especially when Economy Plus seats are not sold out.
Two changes can make the compensation a little bit fairer, including raising the dollar limits on what they can offer like Delta has done. First, the compensation “voucher” for volunteers should be usable for anything the airlines sell, including upgrades and club passes (nicer way to spend the time while waiting for the later flight). Secondly, the cash compensation offered when involuntarily bumped should be without limit at four times the cost of the most expensive ticket sold in the passenger’s cabin, better penalizing the airline for selling expensive last minute tickets that result in overbooking.
6
I have 1 15 year old daughter who lives in Cleveland Ohio. United charged $50 each way (plus full airfare) as an unaccompanied minor from 2005 until about 2008. Then the price became $150 each way plus full airfare. The extra charge for the one hour flight was usually at least the same price as a coach fare. I stopped using United. As the "friendly Skies" (Rhapsody in Blue Music swells in the background) became less and less inviting, prices went up and stayed there, service went through the floor and stayed there, and overall made driving up and beck (6 hours each way) and a two night stay in a hotel just as cheap overall.
I used to fly United on business to Korea four or five times a year and did this for several years. That Airline is DEAD.
I used to fly United on business to Korea four or five times a year and did this for several years. That Airline is DEAD.
14
More than one contributor pointed out that this was one of the contract carriers flying under the name of "United Express." In my opinion, all United Express carriers (not to be confused with United main line) are amateurish and incompetent. Also in my opinion, they pretend to be a carrier, flying "Barbie jets" (but smaller) with statistically demonstrated very lousy on-time performance. Rather than "save money" by using these contractors, in my opinion United LOSES money. Though I've traveled more than a million miles in the last 3 years on United/Star Alliance, I have vowed to never again fly an itinerary that includes United Express. Instead, I buy tickets on another carrier and sometimes drive from farther airports... rather than being continually assured that the flight is on time... until discovering, after the scheduled departure time, that the equipment hasn't even left the previous station (and, of course, by not updating the information, this has prevented the United computers from reaccommodating me on a different flight. I continue to fly United internationally (or nonstop, transcontinental flights), but I will NEVER again fly another itinerary that includes United Express. This year, along, that has meant flying more than 20,000 miles on American and Delta on itineraries I would have flown on United/United Express. And, I should add, I pay for business class seats when I travel.
13
The whole noisome flying 'experience' is a rather convenient microcosm of what is happening in the country as a whole and that is the separation of just about everything along class lines. God help anyone now who doesn't have money is the overriding message of our horrid time. This also fits in with the incredible greed of corporate America giving the flying public this dreadful mess.
23
If you think being the "customer" is a bad experience when you're on their airplane, wait until the airlines get the Air Traffic Control system privatized and you become a "customer" in their sky. Take heed; You'd rather be a citizen than a customer.
Considering the loss of good, career jobs with retirement, the airline bankruptcies, the stolen pensions, the horrible customer service, the limited service to smaller towns and the fact it actually takes longer to travel by air than it did 20 years ago....I'd rather pay the $459.
Deregulation has been a disaster.
Don Brown
Considering the loss of good, career jobs with retirement, the airline bankruptcies, the stolen pensions, the horrible customer service, the limited service to smaller towns and the fact it actually takes longer to travel by air than it did 20 years ago....I'd rather pay the $459.
Deregulation has been a disaster.
Don Brown
16
I was removed from a flight in 2005 in a chillingly similar fashion.
I was in first class on an American Airlines Chicago-London flight, and woke up a few hours after dinner to ask for some more champagne.
The flight attendants up front, chatting together, seemed bothered by my request and told me to take my seat.
When I then went to business class to make the same request, one of the flight attendants notified the captain that a passenger was being disruptive.
It went downhill from there. The captain told me to take my seat. When I protested that I had done nothing wrong, he ordered me placed in plastic handcuffs.
When we arrived in London, I was arrested -- and held in HMP Wormwood Scrubs all summer long for "air rage!"
I never once raised my voice, caused any commotion, and was only singled out because I dared to ring the call button and approach resting flight attendants when they did not respond.
That one-way ticket from Chicago to London, by the way, cost me $5500.00.
I was in first class on an American Airlines Chicago-London flight, and woke up a few hours after dinner to ask for some more champagne.
The flight attendants up front, chatting together, seemed bothered by my request and told me to take my seat.
When I then went to business class to make the same request, one of the flight attendants notified the captain that a passenger was being disruptive.
It went downhill from there. The captain told me to take my seat. When I protested that I had done nothing wrong, he ordered me placed in plastic handcuffs.
When we arrived in London, I was arrested -- and held in HMP Wormwood Scrubs all summer long for "air rage!"
I never once raised my voice, caused any commotion, and was only singled out because I dared to ring the call button and approach resting flight attendants when they did not respond.
That one-way ticket from Chicago to London, by the way, cost me $5500.00.
11
next, remedy?
Hello train travel
At least the seats are wider.
At least the seats are wider.
10
I travel from Detroit to Chicago by train and am heartened every time to see the train nearly full. And the trip is comfortable; one can walk around and stretch one's legs; buy sandwiches or pack one's own lunch and enjoy the bucolic countryside from large windows. I can choose whether or not to engage in conversation with a fellow passenger sitting a ways away from me, not on top of me.
But most of all, I don't have to tolerate someone moving their hands brusquely over my genitals or around my breasts in lieu of subjecting me to low dose whole body radiation which studies (Stewart, et al) show cause multiple health issues. And there's the conductor who never fails to help me board and to top it off yells, "All Aboooaaarrddd!!
I sincerely hope Dr. Dao and all the passengers on that flight get seriously large reparations for their suffering.
But most of all, I don't have to tolerate someone moving their hands brusquely over my genitals or around my breasts in lieu of subjecting me to low dose whole body radiation which studies (Stewart, et al) show cause multiple health issues. And there's the conductor who never fails to help me board and to top it off yells, "All Aboooaaarrddd!!
I sincerely hope Dr. Dao and all the passengers on that flight get seriously large reparations for their suffering.
Airport security is an ad for Amtrak.
1
Just Friday while sitting in the middle seat on an AA flight, when the doors closed the lady seated by the window wanted to switch places across the aisle to sit next to her husband. Of course the two of us on her left had to stand in the aisle to let her pass. While crawling back into my seat the surly flight attendant walked up and demanded it was now time to sit down. It was the best I could manage not to respond with a derisive comment. I just grinned and kept my mouth shut. Comments here on the abusiveness of airline personnel are spot on. I'm quite aware that they have to put up with a lot more passenger misbehavior than they should, but the vast majority of us flying are well-behaved and acquiescent. "Customer service" in the airline industry defies all norms of other service industries.
14
Yes, that happens a lot. Just thank your luicky stars she/he didn't call the police on you.
3
I'm not surprised. Most flight attendants in US domestic flights are rude, treating customers like nuisances in general.
5
Admittedly I am what would be considered a "vintage" traveler as I remember the days of customer service/safety concerns being special. People were treated as people and not cattle. Seat pitch took customer comfort and not revenue into consideration. Flight attendants were respected because they respected the clientele.
I lament that those days have passed because I see that the "terrorist attacks" perpetrated on planes are now, more times than most, "self inflicted" by the airlines, law enforcement and the flying public. Raw prejudice can lead to people being ejected from a plane because a "foreign language" was overheard. Overbooking and now dead heading can lead to paying passengers being inconvenienced and now physically attacked. Flight personnel seem to feel,not simply, as being on the front lines but sometimes appearing as if the public has invaded their space. Commuter aircraft personnel and their customers have seemingly thrown the idea of civility out the window.
One of the joys of European air travel is the train service. With the advent of high speed rail, airlines have had to maintain a certain level of civility because there is often direct and sometimes more convenient competition. Some low cost carriers have adopted the same war of attrition that the Americans have but there are still legacy airline alternatives that make the travel experience a bit more pleasant.
I lament that those days have passed because I see that the "terrorist attacks" perpetrated on planes are now, more times than most, "self inflicted" by the airlines, law enforcement and the flying public. Raw prejudice can lead to people being ejected from a plane because a "foreign language" was overheard. Overbooking and now dead heading can lead to paying passengers being inconvenienced and now physically attacked. Flight personnel seem to feel,not simply, as being on the front lines but sometimes appearing as if the public has invaded their space. Commuter aircraft personnel and their customers have seemingly thrown the idea of civility out the window.
One of the joys of European air travel is the train service. With the advent of high speed rail, airlines have had to maintain a certain level of civility because there is often direct and sometimes more convenient competition. Some low cost carriers have adopted the same war of attrition that the Americans have but there are still legacy airline alternatives that make the travel experience a bit more pleasant.
9
I still recall those times when there is oftentimes empty seat next to me so that I can stretch (particularly on international flights which happened all the time on various airlines back in the days). No longer. I paid for higher ticket price, but the decidedly less crowded and cramped state of affair, is something that I would rather have, unlike the rock-bottom fare we see these days, but customers are no longer treated like customers. It's a true shame.
1
Passengers' frustration at authoritarian airline behavior is magnified because it is on top of the similarly inconsiderate and sometimes mean attitude of security staff at the start of a journey, and the passport queues and discourtesy at the end. How many unpleasant experiences do we have to endure to get from A to B?
10
Do your best to avoid United whenever possible is the best action to cause change.
10
The bottom line is the airlines do not have the discipline to operate an airline at 70 to 75% load factor. They see every seat that goes empty as lost revenue. They match market demand with capacity which causes the average load factor to be more like 85%.If a flight cancels in a lot of markets they have no capacity to get you to your destination.I have been in the business for over 30 years and remember days when airlines had mid 60% load factors and made plenty of money.The lower load factors made the whole experience better for Passengers, Agents and Flight Attendants.Now every day is like the Thanksgiving holiday used to be, the norm rather than the exception.
6
No. "Boarding decisions" are different before you board the plane versus after you are seated on the plane. This article makes it sound like it's all the same. It's not all the same.
One right you have as a traveler is that the airline must produce this contract you've "agreed to" at the time an airline insists on removing you from the plane. It should be readily available on every aircraft. Maybe there should be a few training sessions for the cabin crew on what the rights of passengers are.
Hopefully the next guy to be manhandled on an airplane is a lawyer. An ACLU lawyer.
One right you have as a traveler is that the airline must produce this contract you've "agreed to" at the time an airline insists on removing you from the plane. It should be readily available on every aircraft. Maybe there should be a few training sessions for the cabin crew on what the rights of passengers are.
Hopefully the next guy to be manhandled on an airplane is a lawyer. An ACLU lawyer.
12
Yes, flight and cabin crew have incredible authority in the plane, and generally that is a good thing. But it is important to point out that in Dr. Dao's case it was a ticket agent who was ordering the passengers off the plane, and the ticket agent who brought police onto the situation. Ticket agents have no authority inside the plane.
4
When airlines can charge 'whatever the market will bear' for a ticket, shouldn't they also have to surrender a voucher for whatever the market demands for a passenger to surrender their seat?
4
"..average domestic fare in 1995 in today’s dollars was $459. In 2016, the average was $349, down nearly 24 percent."
It seems that service, leg room, minimal courtesy and the overall flying experience (*with US airlines*) has gone down way more than the 24% drop in price.
It seems that service, leg room, minimal courtesy and the overall flying experience (*with US airlines*) has gone down way more than the 24% drop in price.
5
The airline industry is the only business I know of that does everything it can to drive its customers away.
5
The cost of a flight may be down 25%, but the angst associated with flying has increased 100%. Not a fair trade, in my book.
9
I have been flying the airlines for almost 50 years and I can tell you it is a cavernous difference between the service and quality from the heyday of commercial flight in the 1970's to the abysmal state of affairs we have today. I have watched the entire experience unravel and the main cause is our reaction as a nation to 9/11. Once we changed our security and our way of life, the terrorists win. That's their whole point, isn it? To bring attention to their causes and to disrupt our way of life. Now, due to an abundance of caution, you are treated like a criminal by the TSA in security, many flight crews act like despots to the very customers they are supposed to serve. It has made the entire flight experience that was once a dream into a nightmare. The irony is that so many people don't even know what you're missing if you never took a flight back before 9/11. I fly at least twice a month and it is just an awful experience compared to the past. Yet airlines are reaping record profits because the industry has become an oligopoly.
9
I agree with your comments on the 9/11 effect. However,I also think another difference from the 1970s is the huge role frequent flyer plans play, and not necessarily for the better in my opinion. People on this and other forums have been commenting on their superior experiences on non-US carriers. Guess what? Those airlines are collecting more revenue from people in posh class and giving everyone on the plane a better experience.(In the US only about 15% of people flying posh class have paid posh class fares.) They are clearly stricter with their FF plans on the intl airlines and are not handing out upgrades right and left to all the "Ryan Binghams" of the world who earn their airline "status" by flying many segments of cheapest flights on the weekends.
1
There is an even simpler, underlying reason for the themes in this article.
My job is to track complex networks like demand-supply chains, energy ecosystems, government structures, etc...on the ground worldwide.
Airlines are especially easy to analyze, because they are so structured in the air (as opposed to bacteria flowing freely though a swamp).
Southwest Airlines is the only major airline that has not gone bankrupt. All other airlines have had at least one bankruptcy. Most have had several.
Why?
Because the Southwest flight network emulates the "packet switched" internet, while all other airlines emulate the now dead "circuit switched" old dial telephone network.
Southwest flights are all shorter flights, with no big hubs, and if you get stuck in one airport there are many more options for them to switch you to another flight that can get you to your destination. This means they can adjust in real time to unpredictable events.
All the other airlines have fixed hubs that get overloaded and they have large and small planes that can't be swapped on routes. (SW has two sizes but they are swappable)
That's why Southwest has the best long term sustainability and finances.
United, AA, and others are using ancient network strategies, which is the main cause of hostility, frustration, lost profits, and stupid management responses like the one last week from United's detached CEO.
My job is to track complex networks like demand-supply chains, energy ecosystems, government structures, etc...on the ground worldwide.
Airlines are especially easy to analyze, because they are so structured in the air (as opposed to bacteria flowing freely though a swamp).
Southwest Airlines is the only major airline that has not gone bankrupt. All other airlines have had at least one bankruptcy. Most have had several.
Why?
Because the Southwest flight network emulates the "packet switched" internet, while all other airlines emulate the now dead "circuit switched" old dial telephone network.
Southwest flights are all shorter flights, with no big hubs, and if you get stuck in one airport there are many more options for them to switch you to another flight that can get you to your destination. This means they can adjust in real time to unpredictable events.
All the other airlines have fixed hubs that get overloaded and they have large and small planes that can't be swapped on routes. (SW has two sizes but they are swappable)
That's why Southwest has the best long term sustainability and finances.
United, AA, and others are using ancient network strategies, which is the main cause of hostility, frustration, lost profits, and stupid management responses like the one last week from United's detached CEO.
10
Thank you for that explanation, Marty. This must be why I have had a consistently good experience with Southwest. If the company is sustainable and functional, then the employees can relax more, even in this terrible overall airline atmosphere. I don't see Southwest mentioned much in the comments but I appreciate them and fly 90 percent with them. When my mother passed away suddenly a year and a half ago, I asked if I could board early on the way home and the two women working the desk walked around and gave me a big hug. Mostly, I just feel like I get transported pretty easily from place to place without ridiculous baggage fees and few mistakes on their part.
I fly a lot as a consultant, both internationally and nationally. And yes, I often do fly coach.
The incident around Mr. Dao are more than unfortunate, however, I think the problem was really law enforcement that did have no clue how to handle an individual without harming him.
At some point Americans have to decide whether they want to be capitalists or not. The debundeling of services (baggage fees, food, etc) is a result of customers complaining to have to pay for other people's indulgences. "Why would I have to pay for luggage if I have only carry-on?" yes, it would be smarter to charge for carrying luggage and half checked bags for free.
Boarding time typically is the most tense on the plain. The stuff that some people bring on board is incredible. Better enforcement of maximum dimensions would help a lot here. Seats are small - and we are getting fatter. But, if every dollar counts - and many dollars go back to the customer - that is the price to pay.
Customers are already on edge because they have gone through TSA. In my opinion that is really where the hassle is. This totally useless theatre is indignifying everyone, and would catch a bomb if it had written "bomb" on it with radioactive material. An already aggravated customer base now charges into the plane. My experience has been that flight attendants are professional but firm. If you reasonably co-operate everything goes smoothly.
The incident around Mr. Dao are more than unfortunate, however, I think the problem was really law enforcement that did have no clue how to handle an individual without harming him.
At some point Americans have to decide whether they want to be capitalists or not. The debundeling of services (baggage fees, food, etc) is a result of customers complaining to have to pay for other people's indulgences. "Why would I have to pay for luggage if I have only carry-on?" yes, it would be smarter to charge for carrying luggage and half checked bags for free.
Boarding time typically is the most tense on the plain. The stuff that some people bring on board is incredible. Better enforcement of maximum dimensions would help a lot here. Seats are small - and we are getting fatter. But, if every dollar counts - and many dollars go back to the customer - that is the price to pay.
Customers are already on edge because they have gone through TSA. In my opinion that is really where the hassle is. This totally useless theatre is indignifying everyone, and would catch a bomb if it had written "bomb" on it with radioactive material. An already aggravated customer base now charges into the plane. My experience has been that flight attendants are professional but firm. If you reasonably co-operate everything goes smoothly.
19
What I find troubling, and indeed scary, about the forcible removal and assault of Dr. Doa on the UA flight is that all of the other passengers on the flight did nothing to stop it. As I understand the facts—and I wish to be corrected if I wrong—all of the other passengers on the flight were offered the compensation to voluntarily leave the place. Only three excepted. Dr. Doa was then arbitrarily “selected” to be involuntarily removed. All of the other passengers knew that they, too, were subject to this “selection” process. When Dr. Dao refused, the cops were called. Good for Dr. Doa! All of the other passengers knew this and saw this. It could have been one of them being assaulted by the cops. It could have been one of them having their schedules, family plans, etc., being disrupted by the incompetence of the airline after paying top dollar for a seat that they were sitting in. Yes, the cell phone videos do show a few passengers yelling and verbally protesting. But only a few. Most of the passengers did nothing. Scary. How comfortable would you be relying on any one of those passengers to do something important? No doubt, the cops had guns, but the videos show only two cops. The videos also show that there were more than enough passengers that could have easily overcome the cops and free Dr. Doa.
24
Maybe Dr. Dao's behavior that the passengers witnessed prior to his eviction caused them to agree with his removal? The cops don't just drag people off airplanes for no reason. There would be more videos like this if that were the case, considering all the police shooting videos available these days. Had they selected him and then not removed him then, in essence, United Airlines would not be in control of their own aircraft. I think each player in this scenario is partly responsible, including Dao.
2
While the physical abuse by airport police is inexcusable, it was also inexcusable for Mr. Dao to not get off the plane calmly when it became clear he was not going to be allowed to stay. As for the other passengers not leaping to defend him,
1.Thist is not worth felony charges that would cost me my job and ability to provide for my family, 2. His rights were not being violated until he resisted the police. He and his wife did volunteer to get off then changed he his mind.
3. They were on an airplane, not in the terminal. How many others would have been injured by people climbing over seats to help him? And again to what end? You need to pick your battles carefully and this was a losing one from the start.
Had Mr.Dao received Big Momma's "Talk" he would have known to get off the plane and then taken action to receive justice. As a million miler on more than one airline, I have been selected for involuntary rebooking on more than one occasion. It is life, not discrimination and most certainly not worth getting beat up or risking my job for.
1.Thist is not worth felony charges that would cost me my job and ability to provide for my family, 2. His rights were not being violated until he resisted the police. He and his wife did volunteer to get off then changed he his mind.
3. They were on an airplane, not in the terminal. How many others would have been injured by people climbing over seats to help him? And again to what end? You need to pick your battles carefully and this was a losing one from the start.
Had Mr.Dao received Big Momma's "Talk" he would have known to get off the plane and then taken action to receive justice. As a million miler on more than one airline, I have been selected for involuntary rebooking on more than one occasion. It is life, not discrimination and most certainly not worth getting beat up or risking my job for.
2
Seriously? You would want other passengers to assist you in confronting law enforcement officers on a plane doing what they are lawfully allowed to do? The message in this story is that the airlines, the TSA and airport assigned law enforcement have only one mind set and one tool in their bag, and that is to escalate and confront to the most violent level imaginable. Had passengers physically intervened, we would not be reading a story on hiw vicious airlines are on the innocent, we would be reading about how a whole lot of people got injured arrested and probably tear gassed in a riot. No the passengers on the flight handled this right, they video'd and documented for all the world to see what United and other airlines really think of their customers and they took a much bigger hit then all the fisticuffs in coach could possibly otherwise deliver. The woman who kept crying out, this is not right, look what you did to him! ought to get a citizens recognition medal.
3
Not all airlines are like United. I have flown Jet Blue for years and sometimes Southwest. Seats on Jet Blue have more room, crews are friendly and they don't overbook.
Southwest has a very orderly boarding procedure.
Southwest has a very orderly boarding procedure.
As a retired airline employee I don't directly have a dog in this fight, but I'd like to make a few points that seem to be missed. Dr Dao was on a flight operated by a contract carrier named Republic Airlines. Not on a main line United Flight. He was on a United ticket and therefore they do bare responsibility for what occurred. The flight was not over sold and volunteers were asked to accommodate a dead heading crew for the next days flight. Most likely they were late arriving from an inbound flight and would be accommodated on this flight to operate the next day. Crew rest rules that determine when a flight can operate are determined by the FAA. Putting them on a later flight, or another airline or even renting a car as someone suggested would most likely not have given them the mandated rest requirement. That decision was made by Republics crew schedulers. In hind sight I'm sure delaying the next days flight would have been preferred to the horrendous situation that occurred. I'm sorry that the police had to force ably remove him, it's a black mark on all of us that a passenger was treated that way.
As far as the frequent complaints about deteriorating service, the internet has had a profound affect. Just like car dealerships and just about everything else we now compare prices, the profit is made in the add ones if it's bag fees, extra leg room or under coating at a dealer ship. Airlines are corporations that historically have not been profitable.
As far as the frequent complaints about deteriorating service, the internet has had a profound affect. Just like car dealerships and just about everything else we now compare prices, the profit is made in the add ones if it's bag fees, extra leg room or under coating at a dealer ship. Airlines are corporations that historically have not been profitable.
13
I travel the world a lot and definitely notice a difference between US and Asian carriers such as JAL, ANA, Korean Air, etc. Maybe it is also a cultural thing, the air crew, ground crew and even check in crew definitely treat a paying traveler the way we'd like to be treated; not snapped at, not dragged off a plane, not treated as if a substitute teacher is disappointed with a first grade class.
1
Thank you for this comment, Bill G. I wrote to the NYT reporters and public editors complaining about their coverage. It was uninformed reporting. We consumers demand everything from airlines: safety, cheap tickets, on time departures, good service, and good share prices for our retirement portfolios. It's crazy, something has to give. No one seems to notice or care that these 500 MPH metal tubes are safer than ever-- but safety infrastructure may be fraying but NYT does not report on that.
- Anna W, Albany, CA
- Anna W, Albany, CA
Wow, a surfeit of griping going on here. Prices are historically low, and yet people seem to feel they're entitled to first class or even business class standards when all they've bought is a ticket in the back of the plane. If you want to be treated well, you have to pony up, folks. Otherwise, please-- eat your peanuts and make the best of it back there so that we up front (job providers, hello!) can enjoy some well-deserved relaxation. ;)
9
Actually, I think it's much simpler -- people just want to know they aren't going to be punched in the face and dragged off a plane.
And while we're talking about "ponying up," maybe it's time for folks who want to ride in the front of the plane to start paying more too. I believe only 85% of passengers in upper classes on US carriers have paid upper class fares -- the rest are mostly "Ryan Bingham" ("Up in the Air") who don't get enough respect in their real lives so they fly around on weekends earning "segments" so they can get "upgrades" and the respect from pretty flight attendants that they don't get from pretty girls in real life. I am old enough to remember when the people in first class actually deserved to be there -- they had paid for it (and also had good manners).
And while we're talking about "ponying up," maybe it's time for folks who want to ride in the front of the plane to start paying more too. I believe only 85% of passengers in upper classes on US carriers have paid upper class fares -- the rest are mostly "Ryan Bingham" ("Up in the Air") who don't get enough respect in their real lives so they fly around on weekends earning "segments" so they can get "upgrades" and the respect from pretty flight attendants that they don't get from pretty girls in real life. I am old enough to remember when the people in first class actually deserved to be there -- they had paid for it (and also had good manners).
30
@jp largo, which airline do you work for?
you've obviously been reading entirely too much ayn rand.
you've obviously been reading entirely too much ayn rand.
30
OK i'm hoping this was a sarcastic/ironic post - i'm going to assume so - otherwise, yikes! and then add the following to address one of the replies- folks traveling in first and business class usually have their tickets paid by their employers who are deducting their cost of travel as a business expense - so those of us who fly coach on personal travel are in effect subsidizing those who ride up front by paying for our tickets with after-tax funds the cost of which isn't deductible at all - so those traveling in first and business class are not morally superior to those of us who fly in coach - and we coach class folks do not need to genuflect to those who are seated toward the front of the plane - unless we drop something while making our way down the aisle!
I'll be avoiding United like the plague from now on.
In continuing from my previous post about surly employees and I admit there are some for reasons not need be repeated. I think much of this is from a general lack of civility in our culture. I have personally witnessed much bad behavior by passengers as well. One upgraded fellow into first class sitting next to me removed his socks and began clipping his toe nails. When I queried him he responded "I paid for this seat" . Or the tween that was texting inflight. When I who was in uniform asked her to stop she turned to her father and his response was "it's not going to hurt anything". When employees meet this behavior it's easy to escalate.
My first flight as a ten year old I wore slacks, a white shirt and a jacket. One thing that has not declined is safety. We who are in the business especially in the cockpit never forget that. If the accident rate of the 1950s and 1960s were repeated today we would statistically lose a full 747 per day. Fares are cheaper in 2016 dollars then they were a decade ago. For better or worse air travel has become another form of mass transit, that everyone has access to. I know this will elicit a lot of responses but I am proud of my 34 year career. I'm not proud of how Dr Dao was treated but there are many culprits besides United in this sad affair
My first flight as a ten year old I wore slacks, a white shirt and a jacket. One thing that has not declined is safety. We who are in the business especially in the cockpit never forget that. If the accident rate of the 1950s and 1960s were repeated today we would statistically lose a full 747 per day. Fares are cheaper in 2016 dollars then they were a decade ago. For better or worse air travel has become another form of mass transit, that everyone has access to. I know this will elicit a lot of responses but I am proud of my 34 year career. I'm not proud of how Dr Dao was treated but there are many culprits besides United in this sad affair
13
There is nothing harmful about texting in-flight, and with the introduction of in-flight WiFi, it'll happen more often. At minimum, it could be considered rude, but no more so than texting in any other public, social surrounding. I think texting is rude if you're doing it in front of somebody you're having a conversation with and they're speaking to you. But why would I criticize a stranger because I see them texting?
clipping toenails in public, now matter where, is sufficient reason for defenestration.
1
Peter the point I was trying to make was at that time the use of cel phones inflight were banned. I'm not discussing good manners but what was then the rule. BTW your cel phone is a licensed radio allowed to only operate over a small fixed distance. This is from the FCC. Inflight not using wifi you are transmitting over a much broader area than licensed for. The FAA mandated at that time that each airline write the rules for potential interference with onboard navigation. The simplest solution was to ban them. Even today under low visibility approaches called CAT III they may not be used due to the tight tolerances and risk involved to everyone onboard.
2
Want great service? I flew Virgin America from the beginning. From the phone to the check in to the service on board, I never had anything but a great experience. It was always a wee bit more expensive, but worth it for the experience of being treated like a human being. With kindness, concern (when problems arose), and compassion. What a great company. A shame Mr. Branson could not get enough votes to stop it's sale to Alaska Airlines. I imagine it'll turn into ANOTHER gREYHOUND IN THE SKY.
15
I believe they use Huskies.
13
I travel between NY and South Florida. I have now switched back to the legacy airline because the upstart I was flying was implored by analysts to become "shareholder friendly." It has done so- but that does not do me any favours. The legacy carrier, meanwhile, had lowered their prices. Yes, the legacy carrier wants $ for wifi but 3 hours of no wifi is not the worst thing in the world as I save $hundreds. Passengers- walk with your feet (bad pun I know, but better than the service on the upstart).
3
Just 2 says ago my daughter flew with her husband and children aged 5, 4 and 1. Connecting at DFW on American to a flight a flight to Mexico, they arrived in plenty of time to the gate. Despite the plane being small and travelling with small children they were assigned group SEVEN! The gate agent called group 7, the last group and they gathered up their things and walked the 30 feet or so to the door. The gate agent shut the door in their faces, shrugging and saying "too late".
The subordinate says to the supervisor, whose name is Tolo, "There's a minute left, can't we let them on?" "No, says the supervisor, to late." American has stated checkin time of 15 minutes before flight time. They were refusing my daughter entry BEFORE the 15 minute limit.
This is unimaginable treatment of anyone let alone a family with small children. One explanation is just spite, airline personnel have complete power over you, and this power goes to some people's heads, look up the Zimbardo prison experiment.
The other explanation is that this supervisor in incentivized to maximize on time behaviour and not customer satisfaction. My daughter's and her family's 7 extra hours traveling meant nothing to him, missing a door closing time by one minute might affect his paycheck. So what if they had been up since 4:30 am in Bethesda and would not get in their destination until 11:30 pm? Just not important!
It's clear that American has a sick corporate culture, either way.
The subordinate says to the supervisor, whose name is Tolo, "There's a minute left, can't we let them on?" "No, says the supervisor, to late." American has stated checkin time of 15 minutes before flight time. They were refusing my daughter entry BEFORE the 15 minute limit.
This is unimaginable treatment of anyone let alone a family with small children. One explanation is just spite, airline personnel have complete power over you, and this power goes to some people's heads, look up the Zimbardo prison experiment.
The other explanation is that this supervisor in incentivized to maximize on time behaviour and not customer satisfaction. My daughter's and her family's 7 extra hours traveling meant nothing to him, missing a door closing time by one minute might affect his paycheck. So what if they had been up since 4:30 am in Bethesda and would not get in their destination until 11:30 pm? Just not important!
It's clear that American has a sick corporate culture, either way.
127
Ever airline i know, and that includes American, allows early boarding for families with small children. Something in your story doesn't make sense.
19
@Bob Carlson this is typical of what I've seen @ AA, especially since the US Airways merger.
5
Your daughter's family was last group to be called to board, they immediately proceeded 30 feet to the gate and were denied boarding because they were "late". I find your story very hard to believe. Is it possible they really were late? I would like to hear the other side of it.
1
I really hope United loses a lot from this.
From what I've read- this was not an oversold situation, but a fully sold flight- and the passenger was not denied boarding- he was already on the plane. This was simply to make United's operations easier, getting employees from point A to point B. They could have bused their employees to Midway in less than an hour and all 4 taken a SW air flight for less than the compensation to one United customer.
Instead, United chose to deny this customer transit- an entirely different can of worms- as though he had done something terrible wrong. They've still done nothing (per TMZ- they'll still be allowed to bump paying passengers like this- only if they're not on the plane yet) to make me think "yup, I'd fly them"- only if there was absolutely no other option.
From what I've read- this was not an oversold situation, but a fully sold flight- and the passenger was not denied boarding- he was already on the plane. This was simply to make United's operations easier, getting employees from point A to point B. They could have bused their employees to Midway in less than an hour and all 4 taken a SW air flight for less than the compensation to one United customer.
Instead, United chose to deny this customer transit- an entirely different can of worms- as though he had done something terrible wrong. They've still done nothing (per TMZ- they'll still be allowed to bump paying passengers like this- only if they're not on the plane yet) to make me think "yup, I'd fly them"- only if there was absolutely no other option.
19
I gave up on United after they lost my luggage twice. I had to burn off more than a 100k miles and endured a few more horrible flights with them. The only worse airline is in Russia, where customer care has not been invented. Newark airport is one of the worst airports in the world, but Rome Airport proves that customer service can be achieved. In Rome, they have bins large enough to accomodate all your belongings for one run through xray, they are polite and quick and as you leave security you can rate their performance by pushing a button. I am much more careful now when I choose airlines, especially when I'm going a long distance. United stopped even taking baggage, you had to pay to pile it on an unguarded cart in the middle of the lobby. You had to validate your ticket through a kiosk. Questions? Good luck! While I couldn't see this coming, when a company eschews the customer for the dollar, and treats them as widgets, this is what you get.
30
That is really interesting you mentioned the large bins at Rome. I recently experienced that elsewhere -- can't remember, but it may have been London, and i thought to myself "how difficult would it be for the TSA or whoever is responsible for this in the US to take something from all those stupid airport security taxes we've been paying for years and get something like this?" Every time I go through an airport in this country I feel like I'm being forced to put my stuff in a bunch of leftover plastic storage boxes from somebody's closet!
15
It strikes me there is a ripe opportunity for a new airline to occupy the space currently served by no one. That space? Quality on-board service, plenty of frills, pleasant customer service. Most domestic airlines are in a race to the bottom, and then there is private air travel. I think plenty of people would be willing to pay the same premium price the large airlines charge if they were assured of real service!
19
the space you're describing is first class and elite mileage member. you get preferred check-in, bags are tagged for quicker delivery at the carousel, you board early, you get preference on re-bookings, they service food & beverage, pillows, blankets, leg room, recline, first off, fewer passengers to an on-board lavatory.
12
Sure glad I own my own small private plane. Was not new, and cost me about the same as a full sized sedan. After becoming a visual flight rule (VFR) pilot, I and one passenger could go just about anywhere east of the Mississippi for about the same cost as commercial tickets, and we could take over 100 total pounds in luggage too. (Piper Cherokee 28-140). If my passenger is my friend (or a relative) and willing to split the cost of gas, we are good to go.
1
Boredom among the law enforcement officers likely played a role. These seem to me to be young people with nothing much to occupy them. When they are finally asked to do something, all the pent-up energy comes out.
Bring in some retired military officers and NCOs. They know how to structure the work days of the enlisted soldiers in their charge. They should be able to manage things better.
Bring in some retired military officers and NCOs. They know how to structure the work days of the enlisted soldiers in their charge. They should be able to manage things better.
15
Commercial flying and the Airlines are the distillation of corporate greed. Any and every rule and regulation is used to take every possible dollar from each passenger. Then, more rules and regulations are used, and abused, to ensure your complete and total " compliance ". Obedience over all !!!
And, we should be grateful they're not using TASERS. Yet.
And, we should be grateful they're not using TASERS. Yet.
30
Tasering? It already happened in Canada. A Polish-speaking man in anguish on arrival at Vancouver's lovely airport was somehow Tasered to death by uncomprehending airport staff several years ago. The nation was upset, the security people were dismissed, and the employment of Tasers re-examined.
But he was killed for speaking in an unintelligible tongue. We never learned what he was saying.
But he was killed for speaking in an unintelligible tongue. We never learned what he was saying.
1
Well, go ahead and start your own airline with fares and services based on giving away as much as possible, and letting customers do what they want.
The incident with the Chinese man really has revealed the immense discontent most of us have with flying. He was dragged literally down the aisle, and many of us feel his pain, while not as extreme, we all feel so mistreated by the airlines.
Whether it's the rude and often useless flight attendants, the cramped seats, the meager food, the sitting on the tarmac waiting to take off, the crush of boarding, nowhere to put your things on the overhead compartments. ALL of it and more. It's an experience that gives me much stress, to the point that I bring meditation tapes to ease it.
What happened to this poor man is a metaphor for how flying feels: bedraggled.
I hope he wins thousands upon thousands in his lawsuit.
The fact that this 69 YEAR OLD man was physically removed from the plane shows how incompetent airline managers for this flight were. The solution was so simple:
Just keep upping the price for someone to give up their seat, and for sure there would've been a taker.
To have put the police in this horrible position was another ridiculously stupid decision. Now HE'S the bad guy? please.
Whether it's the rude and often useless flight attendants, the cramped seats, the meager food, the sitting on the tarmac waiting to take off, the crush of boarding, nowhere to put your things on the overhead compartments. ALL of it and more. It's an experience that gives me much stress, to the point that I bring meditation tapes to ease it.
What happened to this poor man is a metaphor for how flying feels: bedraggled.
I hope he wins thousands upon thousands in his lawsuit.
The fact that this 69 YEAR OLD man was physically removed from the plane shows how incompetent airline managers for this flight were. The solution was so simple:
Just keep upping the price for someone to give up their seat, and for sure there would've been a taker.
To have put the police in this horrible position was another ridiculously stupid decision. Now HE'S the bad guy? please.
60
Not every Asian is Chinese. The guy in this incident is from Vietnam.
24
There is a large ethnically Chinese population in Vietnamese.
He could have been both. Lots of ethnic Chinese in Southeast Asian countries.
Jan 2, 2016, United canceled my family's return flight to the US from Sydney, then rebooked my husband and me on a flight later that evening and my two teenage boys on a flight the following day. After speaking on the phone with a reservations supervisor and politely explaining why this would not work for us to leave our kids behind on one continent while my husband and I flew home to a different continent, the supervisor said "I can't do anything for you" and HUNG UP ON US. We've never flown United since and never will.
160
Unbelievable.
38
Had a similarly bad experience with American and haven't flown them since either.
1
These are economic problems that create economic opportunities. Sites like Expedia could start to list flight choices by quality of amenities, giving prominence to airlines with more space between rows or better food and an incentive to provide them. And, even more refined, they could create a matrix of quality against price for each seat on each flight. I'd pay more not to be crammed in a ridiculously tight seat. Airlines offer deals like this, but they're hard to grasp and compare.
Also, people should research their choices with Seatguru and other existing ratings services. British Airways' premium economy is a major improvement over economy. The last time I flew United Airlines overseas, premium economy was barely distinguishable from economy. Such differences can be identified online.
Also, people should research their choices with Seatguru and other existing ratings services. British Airways' premium economy is a major improvement over economy. The last time I flew United Airlines overseas, premium economy was barely distinguishable from economy. Such differences can be identified online.
7
United Airlines Does Not offer premium economy. You are confusing this with United's "Economy Plus," which provides identical inflight-service to their regular economy product, plus a few more inches leg room, located at the front of the economy cabin.
4
Why are the no shows refunded their ticket? If I am a no show at the theater or a sporting event I am out the ticket price. If you buy an airline ticket and don't cancel more than 24 hours before departure you should lose the ticket price. Period. Frankly, it would make last minute ticket purchases cheaper rather than the pricy experience they now are. Its just a new model for pricing but I think it would be an improvement.
2
most airfares are NOT refundable. IF you do not cancel prior to departure, the ticket value is forfeited; otherwise it can be reused subject to a typical $200 change fee penalty.
10
perhaps I didn't make my point clear. the change fee should be minimal but if you don't cancel you should be out the price of the ticket.
3
It depends on what kind of ticket you purchase as to whether or not you will be refunded if you are a no-show. Most of us, who purchase economy fares, lose out with no refund. Tough luck. So, the airlines are not only taking in the cost of the original fare, they are taking in a second fare as well (assuming they are not trying to seat employees as they were in this case). It's a real racket and has nothing to do with a loss in profit if they don't overbook....
5
"with four to five major airlines, they don’t have to worry about market share". No, with an oligopoly and collusion they don't have to worry about customers' reactions to abuse
30
Part of the outrage here is the fact that this wasn't a matter of overbooking. They didn't sell too many seats. They suddenly needed four seats for their own purposes and kicked off paying customers to achieve it.
67
Why did this even happen? Airlines run on sophisticated computer systems that manage their everything from planes to people and everything else including toilet paper and spare parts. The 4 crew people they supposedly just decided had to fly 10 minutes prior to departure is absurd. The crew scheduling system had this already in place weeks or months in advance. Their failure to reserve those seats for the crew is their fault and not an unforeseeable emergency.
43
"The crew scheduling system had this already in place weeks or months in advance." Which is it? Weeks or months? Your vagueness works against your credibility.
1
How is MP's credibility affected by not being privy to exact information only United could be expected to have? The fact that they apparently DIDN'T reflects badly on the airline, not the commenter.
16
Glenn, If you knew how advanced scheduling and bidding worked you would understand schedules are bid for and set on a quarterly schedule. So depending upon when they last bid for work slots, it could have been weeks or months ago just as I said.
Why the hostility? You work for United and want to fill us in a little more?
Why the hostility? You work for United and want to fill us in a little more?
It all starts with TSA. Being herded while being screamed at, and God forbid if you ask a question about what are now weekly changes in procedure, sets the tone for uncomfortable and anxiety filled day of travel.
34
On a recent flight, it struck me how anxious many people were--struggling to take off their shoes, struggling to get their stuff into the correct bin, forgetting they had belts on, worried that there would be something wrong inside their luggage. It's not a fun way to travel. Passengers themselves contribute to the problem breathing down the neck of the person in front of them. The unspoken message from everyone is hurry, hurry, hurry...and then wait, wait, wait.
33
I fly a lot and I have never been treated rudely by a TSA rep. It's possible I have been lucky, but I doubt it. OTOH, airline employees can be quite rude. Most of them are great, but for some the power has gone to their heads.
I flew to Egypt and Jordan recently. In Egyptian airports, you will go through security at least twice, sometimes 3 times. Each time you will be thoroughly patted down. I mean thoroughly. Remember that next time you go through TSA.
I flew to Egypt and Jordan recently. In Egyptian airports, you will go through security at least twice, sometimes 3 times. Each time you will be thoroughly patted down. I mean thoroughly. Remember that next time you go through TSA.
4
I agree...it's always fashionable to bash TSA...but for the most part they do a tough and unglamorous job pretty well.
The airlines have made TSA's job an order of magnitude more difficult when they initiated the race to the bottom - charging for checked bags.
Now every boarding process looks like the opening trailer for "The Beverly Hillbiillies"...thanks to the drive to squeeze every last dollar from "unbundling "
The airlines have made TSA's job an order of magnitude more difficult when they initiated the race to the bottom - charging for checked bags.
Now every boarding process looks like the opening trailer for "The Beverly Hillbiillies"...thanks to the drive to squeeze every last dollar from "unbundling "
5
Is it not relevant that a "no-show" who supposedly "costs" the airline with an empty seat has paid for that seat and loses the money? A plane could be empty of passengers who had bought tickets and the airline would not lose any ticket revenue.
This business of overselling is absurd.
This business of overselling is absurd.
35
Exactly. I think some of these so-called "rules" go back to the olden days (like the 50s and 60s) when you could actually "reserve" a seat without buying a ticket. Today,not only is that no longer possible (at least not in my experience), but so many tickets are sold that are nonrefundable and/or have heavy penalty changes, that you have a much higher percentage of people showing up at the gate, not to mention the fact that in this day of heavy load factors nobody wants to miss or change their flight because they know it could be literally days before they get another one.
9
I think part of the reasoning is that the airline can sell some seats twice if they overbook and the first passenger doesn't cancel their ticket in time to get their money back. Or they can move one passenger to a less empty flight. They can make more than one sale, so to speak.
11
It is stretching to mention 911 in the context of the barbarism practiced by the United Airlines ! This is a new culture of cheap and overbooked flights + payments for luggage and other hidden costs after selecting a " low cost " flight !
United Airlines flights seems to be unsafe and 100 % due to the airline's own practice and ought to be grounded !
United Airlines flights seems to be unsafe and 100 % due to the airline's own practice and ought to be grounded !
7
It seems the time is ripe to allow more foreign carriers to compete in the US domestic routes ! For examples the many regional Chinese airlines services and care for the passengers is much better after witnessing the barbarism by the UA crew assisted by Chicago thugs recently !
18
As long as a contractual obligation is thrust on the buyer of ticket that subsists till the completion of the journey in the normal course, save for carrier exigencies, airlines of all hues will tend act a tad arbitrary in enforcing their flight regulations, complacent in the thought that State authorities aren't likely to take umbrage for
what is presented on the face of it as security issues with the bumped passenger
refusing to vacate or turning unruly out of frustration. Unless the rules are amended to take away the airlines' right to "overbook" seats for economic reasons post-check in unseemly fracas are bound to be witnessed.
what is presented on the face of it as security issues with the bumped passenger
refusing to vacate or turning unruly out of frustration. Unless the rules are amended to take away the airlines' right to "overbook" seats for economic reasons post-check in unseemly fracas are bound to be witnessed.
2
The article and many comments are treating two distinct concepts as synonymous: The airlines contractual rights to deny a passenger boarding and the circumstances under which you may be removed from an aircraft.
I have taken the time to read UA's terms of carriage. The flight being oversold is not listed as a circumstance under which the airline may remove a passenger from an aircraft. It is, however, a reason upon which a passenger may be denied boarding. Once a passenger has been issued a boarding pass and has been allowed to cross the threshold, and take their assigned seat, the right to deny boarding had expired. The list of reasons for which a passenger may then be removed is a much more limited list.
There was nothing lawful about the removal of this man from the aircraft.
I have taken the time to read UA's terms of carriage. The flight being oversold is not listed as a circumstance under which the airline may remove a passenger from an aircraft. It is, however, a reason upon which a passenger may be denied boarding. Once a passenger has been issued a boarding pass and has been allowed to cross the threshold, and take their assigned seat, the right to deny boarding had expired. The list of reasons for which a passenger may then be removed is a much more limited list.
There was nothing lawful about the removal of this man from the aircraft.
114
Read carefully how the airlines' define "boarding." I understand that "boarding" continues until the cabin doors are closed; hence, even while seated passengers may be considered "boarding" as long as the doors are open.
3
@SB. NOPE. I too have read the United Contract of Carriage. Boarding is NOT defined in the CofC. As a litigator focusing on commercial contracts, I can tell you that courts will interpret undefined terms against the party that wrote the contract, that's United. United may itself want an expansive definition of " boarding" but they are going to lose that fight.
8
As other writers have noted - this is not 'bumping' - which I always assumed was possible, having flown commercially for decades, you arrive a bit late you can lose your seat, etc. I never, ever thought that once they accepted your ticked and you were seated they could ask you, nay, command you, to leave the pane and provide your seat to someone else. Imagine this were so in other aspects of life
You buy tickets to hamiliton - you get to the theater , are seated in your set which you waited 6 months to obtain, and the house manager and an usher approaches and says " excuse me Sir, we have a more important person who needs that seat, you must leave now. We will give you back your cost of the ticket, plus 100, and a ticket for a show on such and such date ( whether you can make that date or not) "
You hired a bay sitter to attend? tough. you came in from out of town and needed to take a vacation day to make this particular show? who cares. Get out before we call the police and have you forcibly removed!
This could be hard to get restaurant reservations after being seated, moive theaters, the list goes on.
the horror of flying has just reached a new low.
You buy tickets to hamiliton - you get to the theater , are seated in your set which you waited 6 months to obtain, and the house manager and an usher approaches and says " excuse me Sir, we have a more important person who needs that seat, you must leave now. We will give you back your cost of the ticket, plus 100, and a ticket for a show on such and such date ( whether you can make that date or not) "
You hired a bay sitter to attend? tough. you came in from out of town and needed to take a vacation day to make this particular show? who cares. Get out before we call the police and have you forcibly removed!
This could be hard to get restaurant reservations after being seated, moive theaters, the list goes on.
the horror of flying has just reached a new low.
44
Substitute "chicken bus" for "airline" and you have a good description of the problem. I try not to fly when possible.
8
Airports have become nothing but security combat zones with rude, insensitive security personnel and flying an airplane has gone from an exciting, luxurious venture to being equivalent to riding on a public bus.
17
I think it would be difficult to overestimate the role the aggressive "we're fighting a war on terror here" mentality of the security zone plays in souring the mood of many travelers before they even get to the gate. Couple that with the difficulty some travelers have in even getting to the airport, as in the NY are, or the anxiety in making the tight connections airlines insist are doable, and you have recipe for disaster when it comes to events like last Sunday's.
20
I remember some passenger surveys a while ago that found that people would rather pay a tiny bit less rather than have 2" more legroom or wider seats. so while I will drive long distances to avoid the airline experience, I do believe that the passenger population have contributed to the current state of flying.
the closer the fare is to free the happier many passengers, or at least those surveyed.
I wonder if this is another consequence of the income disparities?
perhsps the next innovation will be a standing room section. packed like the subways in all major cities during rush hours.
the closer the fare is to free the happier many passengers, or at least those surveyed.
I wonder if this is another consequence of the income disparities?
perhsps the next innovation will be a standing room section. packed like the subways in all major cities during rush hours.
10
It's time for us to stop putting up with the blame game.
You get to the airport 2 hours early, everyone who works there is completely unhelpful and threatening.
After all the indignity of TSA and the inevitable delays for reasons other than weather, (our gate is not available????) you are finally allowed on the plane and then are subjected to being shouted out to hurry up and sit down. So you can be ignored for the length of the flight. The pressure on the people doing the actual work is obviously not an issue to the fat cats on their asses who only care about data they can manipulate into a great PR tweet.
I'm completely sick of then being subjected to the propaganda of how I'm important and valued as a customer.
Maybe if politicians had to be inconvenienced and insulted we'd get somewhere, but probably we will keep catering to rich folks with first class lounges and separate screening, so the powerless can't do a thing for fear of being abused. Big payouts for the airlines though.
You get to the airport 2 hours early, everyone who works there is completely unhelpful and threatening.
After all the indignity of TSA and the inevitable delays for reasons other than weather, (our gate is not available????) you are finally allowed on the plane and then are subjected to being shouted out to hurry up and sit down. So you can be ignored for the length of the flight. The pressure on the people doing the actual work is obviously not an issue to the fat cats on their asses who only care about data they can manipulate into a great PR tweet.
I'm completely sick of then being subjected to the propaganda of how I'm important and valued as a customer.
Maybe if politicians had to be inconvenienced and insulted we'd get somewhere, but probably we will keep catering to rich folks with first class lounges and separate screening, so the powerless can't do a thing for fear of being abused. Big payouts for the airlines though.
37
Once in line to check in with two young kids and a car seat, we tried asking an airline staff person where we could get a plastic bag in which to put the car seat. Her response was immediately aggressive, suggesting that our request was unreasonable, that we were unprepared. When my husband said that on prior trips, other airlines provided a bag, she decided to call security. She was unhinged, belligerent, and seemed threatened by simple questions. The policeman who had to come seemed embarrassed by the incident, and had nothing to do, since we were just waiting in line. The attendant for another airline who was nearby heard the encounter and offered us a plastic bag for the car seat. Because someone was having a bad day and had absolute power, it almost escalated to this type of incident. I remember thinking "how does this happen?", and how easily it could have deteriorated if the police officer had acted instead of talking, or had taken her word for it instead of assessing the situation himself.
85
Maybe this is why Oscar Munoz spent the last year making nice with his employees instead of his customers. Some of the United/Continental employees were very unhappy and perhaps becoming "unhinged"by the way they were treated during the merger process a couple of years back. I know I had an encounter in the air with an unhinged United flight attendant on a flight to Europe out of Newark a couple of years ago that upset me so much not only was I left speechless but I lost my appetite (and rarity for me, even on a plane).
16
@ellienyc years ago I was astounded to hear United flight attendants who were seated out of sight in their crew seats, speaking loudly and disparagingly about various passengers on my flight and previous flights they had worked.
It was my last flight on United.
It was my last flight on United.
7
You're going to fly. Are you going to drive 2200 miles one way? No.
The problem is that too many people think they are special. That they deserve more privilege than others. Pro travelers like myself rarely have a bad experience. Yeah, there are equipment delays, noisy rude kids, annoying dogs and cats, and the occasional fat seat mate. On the whole we understand what it takes to get from here to there without problem.
If they could only teach basic manners to people flying would be much easier.
The problem is that too many people think they are special. That they deserve more privilege than others. Pro travelers like myself rarely have a bad experience. Yeah, there are equipment delays, noisy rude kids, annoying dogs and cats, and the occasional fat seat mate. On the whole we understand what it takes to get from here to there without problem.
If they could only teach basic manners to people flying would be much easier.
16
I agree completely. I fly 75000 per year, almost all on United and I never have a problem beyond the occasional delays and noisy seat mates. Because I do this all the time, I get in my groove and do what I need to do get to where I need to go. Last week, I had to check a bag - something I do maybe twice a year. My bag didn't make my flight but I had it by 2 the next morning. Not a big deal.
Travelers who lack basic manners and do not want to comply with the rules of TSA and the airlines cause many of the problems identified in this comments section.
Travelers who lack basic manners and do not want to comply with the rules of TSA and the airlines cause many of the problems identified in this comments section.
1
“Rather than practicing de-escalation, any disagreement with the crew becomes seen as a threat.”
Yeah, that about sums it up.
However the 'prison-like' atmosphere starts when you go through security.
The message is loud and clear.
Don't be friendly. Don't smile.
Don't make small talk.
And for heaven's sake certainly don't try to make a joke.
Because as far as they are concerned everyone is a potential terrorist and needs to be treated as such.
Yeah, that about sums it up.
However the 'prison-like' atmosphere starts when you go through security.
The message is loud and clear.
Don't be friendly. Don't smile.
Don't make small talk.
And for heaven's sake certainly don't try to make a joke.
Because as far as they are concerned everyone is a potential terrorist and needs to be treated as such.
19
Consumers as a whole have spoken. They want the lowest possible airfare and are willing to give up just about anything to get it. Some flyers would be happy to pay a little more to see better service but their voice is drowned out by the loud clamor of the vast majority that wants cheap.
12
It there were another way to cross oceans, I'd give up flying for most of the reasons others have stated.
8
You can cross on the QM2 between NY and Southampton, it takes a week but what a way to go.
1
Open up the US markets to foreign airlines. You'll see an imediate change in service and attitude from AA/United/Delta. Problem solved.
36
Yes, that is also my point, and I like the idea of Chinese regional airlines enjoying freedom in our airspace ! Considering thugs in UA ... we need competition from the rest of the civilized world !
8
I agree. It is why when I fly overseas I try NEVER to take a US carrier.
13
Something special in the air all right.... insult to injury
7
Let's make it very, very clear: airlines answer to shareholders first, then management, then the unions. The passenger comes last but pays for everyone else. That's the way it is and will always be.
Steve
www.travelingprofessor.com
Steve
www.travelingprofessor.com
28
This is only because the traveling public refuses to reject hostile carriers, behaving as though there were no alternative to air travel (staying home or vacationing within driving distance), and also chooses the lowest airfare consistently, regardless of all other factors. If the vast majority of Americans, who have little or no net worth, are going to insist on engaging in an inherently costly activity like air travel, then the quality of the experience must necessarily decline. And so it has.
11
I am sure, we will reject hostile airlines ! I will never book a flight in UA flight after the thuggery by UA assisted by Chicago thugs !
5
I disagree with the NYT answer to question 4. In the case of a weather caused delay or cancellation airlines do not have to provide either meals or hotel voucher. On a one stop flight through Newark, the second leg. Was cancelled due to crew timing out according to repeated announcements but when I asked for hotel voucher (next flight not until next day -18 hours later) I was told I was on my own because the cancellation was due to weather even though no weather problems at Newark or my destination. When I got home I complained to United head office and told by numerous people no vouchers due to weather.
22
United airlines is unsafe due to the airline's practice and should be grounded without further delay ! UA declare war on passengers for their own faults !
6
One evening the weather was very severe all night in Shenzhen airport, within few minutes the airport turned into a huge restaurant, free food provided by airlines , I guess , it was an amazing scene ... all night eating experience while it was pouring rain and wind outside !
9
Yes, the airline staff lies. Airlines should be obliged to provide a written attestation specific to any flight with so-called weather delays. This should state the date, time and weather conditions in the originating and destination cities. Lying should be grounds for customers to seek restitution plus damages. The audacity and rapacious greed of corporations is out-of-bounds and we must reign in this nonsense, and fast.
8
The problem was that the plane was full and then United decided it "needed" four of those seats for its own employees. I don't know what all the circumstances were, but United had at least one other flight leaving later that evening. If they needed seats, they should have approached individuals for the later flight. Otherwise, they could have had a "reverse auction", where passengers submit the minimum they would consider to give up their seat. I'd be willing to bet they could find some "volunteers" for $2K. Either that or fly the crew on a competitor's flight. American had several flights from O'Hare to Louisville.
30
Right on!
Their problems-our troubles.
Their problems-our troubles.
7
What the writer fails to note is that this is primarily a US problem. For regular global travelers such as myself, it would be shocking to see crews in other countries acing with the impunity that is regularly displayed on US flights. I have been on foreign airlines where disputes arose and have never observed the kind of "my way or the highway" response that so quickly is invoked by US personnel. In general, Americans don't do service very well. Our egalitarian nature leads to wait staff beginning with "Hi, I'm (fill in the name) and I'll be your server". That is more and invitation to friendship than the unobtrusive professionalism displayed elsewhere. Unlike Europeans, most US crews in premium classes know little about the food or wine that they serve and generally are far less concerned with the details of service that make for a truly excellent experience. I recently returned from Asia beginning on Thai and then changing to a US carrier. When the tray settings were placed by the Thai staff, each one was checked for proper positioning--as to match a mental picture of how the setting was to look. It was a nice touch and showed real professionalism. By contrast, the US carrier crew handed me the cloth for me to put over my tray and then just plopped the service down and moved on. This of course, came after the announcement that they were there predominantly for our safety--something that became ever more evident as the flight progressed.
31
Why can a corporation call upon the police to enforce its corporate rules and thus do the corporation's dirty work? What agency protects the corporation's customers? In this instance, the police or security force did not protect the customer's rights, and in this instance the customer was deemed to have no rights including the right not to be injured.
61
When people refuse to comply with a contract the law, and law enforcement can rightly compel them to do so, as they did in this case.
Of course United could have taken another course that would have been better for all, but the law was on their side in what they did do.
Of course United could have taken another course that would have been better for all, but the law was on their side in what they did do.
It isn't the "police". Major US airports have a militarized group under some "aviation" department. These people are usually undertrained and so bored that when they "get the call" they respond very enthusiastically to say the least. The now suspended men who attacked that poor man on the UA flight were employees of the O'Hare aviation department. Having flown out of O'Hare dozens of time I have never seen a Chicago or Illinois police officer act unprofessionally. The power crazed "special" officers are an entirely different matter. They answer ultimately to the Airlines.
8
It's not that UA has a legal contract with the customer, it's the fact that the plane is a secured area. Breach of contract is not an issue for law enforcement.
2
CNN just reported that United offered all passengers reimbursement
IF they agree not to sue United.
Thanks United. Good job.
IF they agree not to sue United.
Thanks United. Good job.
12
In the case of the United passenger, it wasn't the flight crew that ordered him removed. It was the ground agents. The pilots and flight attendants don't deal with reservations and booking and seat changes and so forth.
A frequent business flyer since the 80s, I applauded the American FA strike back in the day. Since then, I avoid unionized "Legacy Carriers" (except delta) when flight prices are similar- the chances of being forced to interact with a bitter and surly "Veteran" FA or GA are highest on United, followed by American and the various merger partners. The various ownership changes seemed to have hurt them, they have two-teired pay/benefits, they are being pinched from above, and have zero institutional pride: Delta has some, as do the hard-working good people at SWA, Alaska, and Virgin America. A large percentage o legacy carriers customer-facing employees are simply resentful.
Life is too short.
Life is too short.
I fly about twice a year for business, and thats 2 times to many
11
I used to fly to places but no more. I left Miami in 1970 for New York City and used to fly Red Eyes over the weekends to visit family. Can you believe it was $69 round trip? The flights were good and it seemed most of the passengers were Eastern Airlines employees being routed around.
My last flight was a few years ago before retiring. At Midway I was treated to the TSA strip search each way. I asked a security person why and he showed me a code on my ticket that had been assigned by the airline. It identified me as a non-frequent flier. Because I was an infrequent flyer the airline was willing to inconvenience me instead of its business class flyers.
The whole experience relieved me of the notion that all tickets were equal not only in price but in service. I'm sure that not one of the four people bumped from the United flight this week were not frequent flyers.
My last flight was a few years ago before retiring. At Midway I was treated to the TSA strip search each way. I asked a security person why and he showed me a code on my ticket that had been assigned by the airline. It identified me as a non-frequent flier. Because I was an infrequent flyer the airline was willing to inconvenience me instead of its business class flyers.
The whole experience relieved me of the notion that all tickets were equal not only in price but in service. I'm sure that not one of the four people bumped from the United flight this week were not frequent flyers.
The Quiz related to this article is completely false. I have encountered each of the hypothetical situations as a Premier Gold on United and I have never been offered food, hotel accommodations, vouchers, or even a refund for a cancelled ticket. Using the airline as a source for the answers to the hypothetical questions is not journalism,
18
For years I avoided flying United because of successive bad experiences back in the 1980s. But a couple of years ago I flew international business class with them, and I have to say the experience was excellent, before and during. The woman at checkin actually went way beyond the average, when we missed our international flight because another airline had screwed up big time and cost us 6 hours making the connection. Not only did she without hesitation book us on the next day's flight, but booked us a room for the night in the nearby Marriott, at airline discount rates. SO, as horrified as I was to see the footage (that has gone viral internationally), I have to say in their defence that this is not the whole story of this airline.
That said, the practice in the US of overbooking flights (which goes back decades) is iniquitous. It is NOT the norm in other countries, believe me. Under IATA rules if you have a confirmed ticket, it means exactly what it says (my brother was an IATA compliance officer, and used to remind me of this). The airline guarantees to fly you. It does not have a "maybe" in there. Depending on the greed of people who will accept a bribe to offload themselves does NOT absolve airlines from their contract with you, and as this case shows, when you run out of greedy people who will take the money, you are in deep s..t. The practice should be banned.
That said, the practice in the US of overbooking flights (which goes back decades) is iniquitous. It is NOT the norm in other countries, believe me. Under IATA rules if you have a confirmed ticket, it means exactly what it says (my brother was an IATA compliance officer, and used to remind me of this). The airline guarantees to fly you. It does not have a "maybe" in there. Depending on the greed of people who will accept a bribe to offload themselves does NOT absolve airlines from their contract with you, and as this case shows, when you run out of greedy people who will take the money, you are in deep s..t. The practice should be banned.
35
I bet everyone on here complaining about airline tickets will end up just booking whatever the cheapest flight is next time they fly. Everyone loves to complain but no one is willing to pay a dollar extra. The airlines would put a full sofa in every row if people wanted that, but that's not what the flying public has proven to want time and time again. They want the absolute cheapest flight.
25
That is not accurate. Although business class is out of reach for most, people are paying for (barely) extra legroom and to check checked bags. They are doing what they can to buy some convenience that once was part of the ticket price.
6
Actually, I believe it to be quite true. Today's relatively cheap airfares have enabled a far greater cohort of people to routinely fly to their destination than was the case some 40 years ago.
I grew up in a middle income household, and flying (in Canada) was far more expensive in the past than it is today.
As a teenager who held summer and part-time jobs during the school year, airfares were a very expensive extravagance. I, as well as most of my school mates, almost always travelled with Greyhound. Way cheaper back then.
Yes, the comfort level and legroom on today's economy class flights is certainly not what it used to be. (Although I get great service and comfort whenever I fly Air New Zealand or Qantas.)
But as the original poster stated, people just want the cheapest fare - period!
I grew up in a middle income household, and flying (in Canada) was far more expensive in the past than it is today.
As a teenager who held summer and part-time jobs during the school year, airfares were a very expensive extravagance. I, as well as most of my school mates, almost always travelled with Greyhound. Way cheaper back then.
Yes, the comfort level and legroom on today's economy class flights is certainly not what it used to be. (Although I get great service and comfort whenever I fly Air New Zealand or Qantas.)
But as the original poster stated, people just want the cheapest fare - period!
7
Absolutely right!
4
Elaine Glusac writes, "Ejecting a flier may be legal."
The goons at United Airlines beat up a 69 year old man. Dr. Dao now has "a broken nose, a concussion, two knocked-out teeth and sinus problems that may require reconstructive surgery." He will probably need psychotherapy to get over the emotional trauma. Battery and police brutality are never legal. The question is why United thought it would be able to get away with criminal behavior.
Whether the violence on the Sunday night flight out of Chicago was a hate crime or not, it was motivated by the spite that reigns in the US of A since the election. (It has been stewing since 9/11.) How many times have we read in the Times in recent months, when Asians, Muslims, Jews or Latins have been attacked, that the aggressor believes he is now entitled to his criminal behavior because the truculent Mr. Trump is now president?
The goons at United Airlines beat up a 69 year old man. Dr. Dao now has "a broken nose, a concussion, two knocked-out teeth and sinus problems that may require reconstructive surgery." He will probably need psychotherapy to get over the emotional trauma. Battery and police brutality are never legal. The question is why United thought it would be able to get away with criminal behavior.
Whether the violence on the Sunday night flight out of Chicago was a hate crime or not, it was motivated by the spite that reigns in the US of A since the election. (It has been stewing since 9/11.) How many times have we read in the Times in recent months, when Asians, Muslims, Jews or Latins have been attacked, that the aggressor believes he is now entitled to his criminal behavior because the truculent Mr. Trump is now president?
65
The airlines were bumping people long before the last election and people have been rude to others for hundreds of years before it and bigotry didn't just appear on January 20th 2017.
This tendency to blame the winner of the last election for all wrongs has reached the point of ridiculousness.
This tendency to blame the winner of the last election for all wrongs has reached the point of ridiculousness.
17
Racism? The three cops were black. How can that be?
6
The leader set the tone and he has led as a bully first and foremost. Never before has anyone been assaulted and dragged off a plane.
3
Go to Europe and experience high speed rail. You will never want to fly in America again.
131
I agree, but we will never ever have high speed rail like that in the US. Nobody wants to pay for it (people are already complaining taxes are too high; and the gov't is already cutting back on Amtrak subsidies; can't imagine anyone wanting to pay more taxes for something like that) and probably nobody would use it, as Americans prefer their cars and generally only want more highways. Besides, how many Americans do you think have traveled to Europe and of that small percentage how many do you think have taken a high speed train?
5
You're correct, of course, if one is traveling in Europe.
I've traveled by train whenever it is feasible, but alas, with the service and train cutbacks in the USA, we are severely restricted in when, where and how often we can take the train to our destinations. Amtrak should be expanded and supported, not cut back. There are good environmental reasons as well as safety and convenience factors for train travel. On the train, one is regarded a customer not a criminal annoyance.
I've traveled by train whenever it is feasible, but alas, with the service and train cutbacks in the USA, we are severely restricted in when, where and how often we can take the train to our destinations. Amtrak should be expanded and supported, not cut back. There are good environmental reasons as well as safety and convenience factors for train travel. On the train, one is regarded a customer not a criminal annoyance.
1
The article fails to describe the impact consolodation has had on the level of service. Most city pair markets are now monopolies or duopolies. Monopolies tend to get very good at telling the customer what they will like and no longer need to earn the customer's business. One more consequence of a government that has been bought and paid for by corporate and big money interests and has continually closed its eyes and approved merger after merger.
49
3 words: High speed rail!
53
Am I correct it was law enforcement (not United airlines personnel) who forced the subject passenger to deplane after the passenger had refused United crew request and law enforcement personnel instructions to deplane. Am I correct that it's a Federal crime to refuse a lawful airline crew instructions? With that said, when law enforcement gives me a lawful order I will obey it. That passenger should have. And so should you. Orderly society can't operate with people defying law enforcement (whether you agree or not with the instruction). It just can't work that way.
13
Does "orderly society" mean obeying ridiculous commands like robots? See the movie 1984, made in 1984.
13
Actually,it is up to the gate people to monitor over sold seating. If you read the ticket contract and the DOT rules, the man was within his rights NOT to get up from his seat. Once a passenger is paid and seated, he does not have to volunteer his seat. When you are in flight and the crew feels one is disorderly, drunk or abusive, then the passenger can be removed, as we've seen before on the news. HOwever, if you just put yourself in this man's place, maybe you can see how much this is wrong. The man suffered a concussion, broken teeth and nose. What did he do to deserve that? The police went over board and that is what's criminal. Law enforcement sometimes defy the law as we've seen every day on the news.
d
d
12
To act as you would have us act, we will still have segregation, and probably still be mired in Vietnam.
God bless those with the courage to peaceably confront the inequities in society.
God bless those with the courage to peaceably confront the inequities in society.
42
I fly United almost exclusively these days. It's pretty easy to tell a United FA from a United Express FA because the United Express cabin crew is often surly and unprofessional.
I encountered an Express FA Thursday who woke me up to tell me my water bottle couldn't be in the seat back pocket for takeoff and another who screamed at me for coming back on board to retrieve a book I'd left in a seat back pocket.
I encountered an Express FA Thursday who woke me up to tell me my water bottle couldn't be in the seat back pocket for takeoff and another who screamed at me for coming back on board to retrieve a book I'd left in a seat back pocket.
10
Once upon a time there was a concept in commercial law called "unilateral contract". An example was the fine print on the back of a parking lot ticket that said you agreed that the lot was not responsible for anything they did to your car. Those were more liberal times and such contracts were generally considered unenforceable.
Not anymore. Did you really know all those FAA and company rules when you bought a airline ticket? Did anyone explain those rules to you?
At the very least we should force the airlines to put warning labels like those on tobacco products, in concise bold print.
Not anymore. Did you really know all those FAA and company rules when you bought a airline ticket? Did anyone explain those rules to you?
At the very least we should force the airlines to put warning labels like those on tobacco products, in concise bold print.
20
They are called adhesion contracts and they actually do not fare particularly well when the corporation ends up in court. I won't say that the terms are never enforced but courts do both law and equity and equity has some pretty harsh teeth.
2
Over the decades,I've flown a lot on United,but this is the last straw and I will not do so again. The entire experience with United has become unacceptably unpleasant, with examples too numerous to mention but familiar to every flyer. I've had enough !
28
Air travel is much cheaper than it used to be. That being said, the service is nowhere near as good as it used to be - either in North America or abroad.
There's a downside to cheaper airfares. Yes, air fares have fallen by about 50% since 1978. Cost per air travel mile has decreased, as well as the average cost of a round-trip flight in the U.S. in inflation adjusted dollars since 1978. (From my own experience, it costs me 60-65 % less - in adjusted dollars for inflation - to fly to Australia today, than it did in 1980.)
However, those cheaper fares come with their own price tag. We often refer to 'corporate greed' but never consider the cost of 'consumer greed.'
Cheaper airfares reduce the pool of job applicants for airlines to choose potential employees from; it means lower wages, fewer benefits, less stable employment and diminished opportunities offered by human resources to properly train their airline staff for difficult situations. This all adds to the stress for airline personnel. Same situation applies to the security personnel working at airports.
Too many consumers will do anything to save a buck: they won't buy 'fair trade coffee', they'll buy from China instead of spending a few more dollars to buy American even though it results in the closure of the factory where their neighbour works.
I'm not excusing what U.A. did to this passenger, and I hope he wins a very large lawsuit.
But sooner or later, everything comes at a price.
There's a downside to cheaper airfares. Yes, air fares have fallen by about 50% since 1978. Cost per air travel mile has decreased, as well as the average cost of a round-trip flight in the U.S. in inflation adjusted dollars since 1978. (From my own experience, it costs me 60-65 % less - in adjusted dollars for inflation - to fly to Australia today, than it did in 1980.)
However, those cheaper fares come with their own price tag. We often refer to 'corporate greed' but never consider the cost of 'consumer greed.'
Cheaper airfares reduce the pool of job applicants for airlines to choose potential employees from; it means lower wages, fewer benefits, less stable employment and diminished opportunities offered by human resources to properly train their airline staff for difficult situations. This all adds to the stress for airline personnel. Same situation applies to the security personnel working at airports.
Too many consumers will do anything to save a buck: they won't buy 'fair trade coffee', they'll buy from China instead of spending a few more dollars to buy American even though it results in the closure of the factory where their neighbour works.
I'm not excusing what U.A. did to this passenger, and I hope he wins a very large lawsuit.
But sooner or later, everything comes at a price.
39
Indeed. As with most of our woes here in North America, we have brought them on ourselves through shortsightedness.
15
Within the last month I had occasion to fly from Chicago to Athens and back. How I wish I could drive to Europe, I would gladly do so in preference to flying. To my surprise, the Swiss Air leg was the worst. I am a 5'10" woman. When I sit on a plane now my knees touch the back of the seat in front of me. When that person reclines their seat, I have no where to go. My knees are crushed. If the airlines are going to put the seats so close together, the seats should not recline. The worst part was, I could not get out of my seat at all. When I tapped the person on the shoulder, he ignored me. When I appealed to the flight attendant, I was dismissed. This was the most unpleasant flight I have had yet. I first flew in 1962 from Washington, D.C. to Boston, Mass. I loved it! Flying has gone downhill since. Too bad.
26
You are conferred many benefits in life as a taller person. You can't just deal with an airplane being the only place on Earth that works in a short person's favor?
10
Yes, Swissair can be a very mixed bag in my experience too. I flew around the world on a multi-airline business class ticket a couple of years back, with 5 different airlines, and the Swiss legs (2 of them) were the worst in several respects. I had REALLY not expected that.
2
On a Swissair flight from NY to Geneva I was once called "uncooperative" and had a group of flight attendants stand and glare at me when I wouldn't change seats to accommodate someone else. I considered it briefly, & actually got up to take a look at the alternative they were offering me (a big mistake), then decided no & got back into my original seat, which they did not like at all. Swissair is now, I believe, a junky budget carrier, though it was once a good airline.
I am someone who is often asked to move to accommodate other passengers, as I am a woman traveling alone & candidate number uno when there are couples & families who want to be together. I now uniformly decline with a "no thank you," but wonder how long it will be before I am dragged screaming off a plane because I wouldn't comply with the request to move. It makes me anxious every time I board a long-haul flight.
I do wish airlines would do their homework on who they ask to move, get off, whatever. I was once asked to move so an "elderly" man could sit with his daughter. I took a look at the guy, who didn't look that old to me (I am almost 70), & asked how old he was. Turns out he was about 10 yrs younger than I, just looked wasted from probably drinking/smoking too much. I asked the flight attendant why they would ask someone like me to move for him & she said they had no idea how old I was & besides Iooked much younger than my age.???? The airlines don't have this data, esp. on international flights?
I am someone who is often asked to move to accommodate other passengers, as I am a woman traveling alone & candidate number uno when there are couples & families who want to be together. I now uniformly decline with a "no thank you," but wonder how long it will be before I am dragged screaming off a plane because I wouldn't comply with the request to move. It makes me anxious every time I board a long-haul flight.
I do wish airlines would do their homework on who they ask to move, get off, whatever. I was once asked to move so an "elderly" man could sit with his daughter. I took a look at the guy, who didn't look that old to me (I am almost 70), & asked how old he was. Turns out he was about 10 yrs younger than I, just looked wasted from probably drinking/smoking too much. I asked the flight attendant why they would ask someone like me to move for him & she said they had no idea how old I was & besides Iooked much younger than my age.???? The airlines don't have this data, esp. on international flights?
9
I think we can all agree that the situation should have been handled MUCH differently at every step. In my opinion, more than a few people need to be fired over this including Munoz for his incredible lack of command of the situation. But I'm not sure this is indicative of general state of air travel. We fly a few times a year. We are very lucky to be able to do so. I have seen great flight crews and really, really bad flight crews (our trip on Delta from LAX to Sydney the flight crew literally had the passengers around me afraid to ask for type of service and we were in premium economy - shameful behavior ) BUT it is their main job to keep us safe in the event something bad happens in flight and I do have trust that they would!
Yes I hate that there is no legroom & the seats are very uncomfortable, , yes the food is mostly bad but I am always thrilled when I land many miles away from my hometown safely, (usually) with all my checked luggage and close to on time. I don't yell at the gate staff because my flight is delayed since I know it's not their fault but in this case it was their fault - they should not have let 4 people board that flight if they knew that they had 4 crew who needed to get on board and they should be fired.
I hope the Board of Director's will fire Munoz. The corporate culture at United needs to be changed. I hope that all airlines are having conversation EVERYWHERE in the companies to make sure they aren't the topic of such negative behavior.
Yes I hate that there is no legroom & the seats are very uncomfortable, , yes the food is mostly bad but I am always thrilled when I land many miles away from my hometown safely, (usually) with all my checked luggage and close to on time. I don't yell at the gate staff because my flight is delayed since I know it's not their fault but in this case it was their fault - they should not have let 4 people board that flight if they knew that they had 4 crew who needed to get on board and they should be fired.
I hope the Board of Director's will fire Munoz. The corporate culture at United needs to be changed. I hope that all airlines are having conversation EVERYWHERE in the companies to make sure they aren't the topic of such negative behavior.
16
"...offering all passengers on Flight 3411 reimbursement for the cost of their ticket" --ONLY if they agree to not join or initiate a lawsuit.
The Unfriendly Skies of United Airlines.
And all this over a United Express flight. (They should dump United Express-it ain't worth it!)
The losses for UAL will mount far beyond what they can imagine.
The Unfriendly Skies of United Airlines.
And all this over a United Express flight. (They should dump United Express-it ain't worth it!)
The losses for UAL will mount far beyond what they can imagine.
35
"reimbursement for the cost of their ticket" --ONLY if they agree to not join or initiate a lawsuit."
Was that stipulation to not sue in this article? If true, what a stingy company.
Was that stipulation to not sue in this article? If true, what a stingy company.
11
Some states recognize a right to sue by bystanders to traumatic events. It varies from state to state -- and may be limited by relationship to victim, physical distance from event, etc., and I am not sure what law of Illinois is. But some of these people, especially those seated nearby (like the woman who was screaming), Dr. Dao's wife, etc. could expect to collect a lot more than the cost of their fare.
Flight attendants have been given the power of prison guards, and as in the Stanford Prison Experiment, sometimes it goes to their heads.
I have flown with plenty of nice flight attendants. But I have also flown with some who started threatening patrons even before the flight took off, without any need to do so. Usually this has happened on United. There isn't anything you can do, as a temporary prisoner, so you just swallow meekly and wait for the flight to end.
I wasn't surprised one bit by United's treatment of Dr. Dao. It's how they look at all of us: as criminals in their prison.
I have flown with plenty of nice flight attendants. But I have also flown with some who started threatening patrons even before the flight took off, without any need to do so. Usually this has happened on United. There isn't anything you can do, as a temporary prisoner, so you just swallow meekly and wait for the flight to end.
I wasn't surprised one bit by United's treatment of Dr. Dao. It's how they look at all of us: as criminals in their prison.
158
I agree completely, and Oscar Munoz would be smart to recognize that what happened in Chicago was in many ways a reflection of ingrained cultural differences at United. Those of us who have flown extensively over the years have long known that the prevailing attitude among United employees is "Which part of No didn't you understand".
What happened on 3411 could have happened on any airline - it's just that it was more likely to happen on United.
What happened on 3411 could have happened on any airline - it's just that it was more likely to happen on United.
66
Unfortunately, Mr. Munoz seemed to spend a lot of his time since becoming head of United soothing the feelings of United employees and high mileagae flyers. I can only assume that is why he received an award as "Communicator of the Year" from a leading PR group, as he certainly doesn't seem to have done a cery good job communicating with the rest of his customers.
6
Great analogy. I'd forgotten about that study, but you're spot on. Unchecked power brings out the worst in humanity.
4
This is the unique situation in which United had the right to take each and every action it took. The passenger was completely wrong for not leaving the flight once told he must. YET, United was completely morally wrong in how it handled the entire situation and the passenger is sympathetic to all those that saw the video and have looked at the situation. This situation has exploded because of how so many fliers feel about the airlines and how they are treated. Pay $200 to change your flight time, but be kicked off at a whim. Sit down and shut up. Talk back, complain, get arrested.
19
Read the news articles again. The United flight was not oversold or overbooked. At the last minute United decided to remove paying customers from the airplane so that company employees could take that flight. If the company had kept increasing the money offer someone would have volunteered. Instead it decided to use violence to get a paying customer off the airplane.
77
No, United did not have the right to drag that passenger of the plane. Read the terms of carriage. They can deny you boarding for any reason... but once you are boarded and in your seat they cannot evict you unless YOU are being threatening, disorderly, abusive etc. Poor planning on United's part did not give them the contractual right to remove that man from the plane.
18
I realize I am in a tiny minority on this issue. But the next time there is an issue on an airplane and the passenger refuses to comply with the crew's instructions you can thank this Doctor - rewarding his behavior with money and hero status sends the wrong signal. That said, the airline handles this poorly and they definitely need to treat their customers much better. Personally, when I walk off a flight no matter how crappy the whole experience was I am glad that they got me there safely.
10
I think what future passengers will be thankful for is not the opportunity to sue but the opportunity to say no and not get beaten up. Sometimes somebody has to say no to a lawful order so society can move ahead. Remember the southern lunch counters of the 50s and 60s?
11
I don't understand the statements that airlines lose money on no-shows. Don't they get to keep the money a no-show paid? How is that losing money?
63
Maybe it's not about losing money on no-shows, and we're looking at this all wrong. Maybe it's about doubling the money made off one seat. Like the perverted form of capitalism that is a short sale of a stock. If my math is correct, they are actually selling the same seat twice. Or in other words, a full flight is actually 110% paid for (reflected in your lower than reality fare to stay competitive). A no-show is great news, because they get double the money for that seat when filled and never lose money when they are offering rewards for passengers to leave and make the flight booked out instead of overbooked. This makes it also interesting to me that the lead-up to this event was that 4 crew members, i.e. non-paying passengers had to be 'accommodated'. Could it be that this would have put this flight below a certain profitability threshold, which is not allowed by the 'program' and the only permitted program action is the removal of a passenger rather than increasing the reward beyond a certain level. That's what we get when 'programs' run companies and the world of extreme managed microefficiency we live in. Don't you miss the 57 Chevy with an extra 1/4 inch steel just for good measure?
16
Actually, it has nothing to do with removing people at the behest of a computer program calculating profitability and everything to do with getting 4 on duty crew members (typically due to unforeseen circumstances) into position to operate a flight that would otherwise be more delayed or even canceled.
2
They don't get to "book" the money until the flight has left. Technically - they may have the cash - but not reportable revenue. Plus, many no-shows are probably refundable tickets. They would only get to count the revenue if it was a non-refundable ticket.
How many different U.S. citizens fly on a commercial domestic flights each year? Why should this small number be so upset about four corporate carriers pursuing so-called "share-holder value" with a vengeance? We should have such an uproar about this practice in the pricing of life saving/serving drugs for a much, much larger number of Americans.
4
Agreed, but that's a different article/issue.
1
Here's another take on United. Last fall, I was flying United from Paris to Dulles. The plane seemed to be late backing out of the gate, when the PA system came on and a flight attendant announced there would be a delay. A group of French security officers came on board and escorted a young women off the plane as the passengers in the rear of the aircraft applauded. The next PA message said that United would rather deal with problems on the ground than in the air. So would I. Passengers can't be free to ignore crew directions no matter how unfair they are. Comply first, complain later.
6
There seems to be a general misunderstanding about what the flight crew can and cannot do, as defined both legally and in airline policy. Once a passenger has been allowed to board a plane and take a seat the passenger paid for, the flight crew can only remove the passenger if that person is deemed to be a danger to the flight. So yes, passengers CAN ignore unfair crew directions. Look at it another way. If the police knock on your door and say they're entering to search without a search warrant, you do not "comply first, complain later." Instead you are free to ignore that police request and close the door. The same actually applies in this situation. The flight crew does NOT have the power to break the law or violate airline regulations that protect seated passengers.
1
The HUGE difference is That passenger created a disturbance; This Dr. did NOT. This whole issue is due to United's dumb failure to properly plan for their crew location planning, and RESERVE SEATS (general or jump-seats) for those crew members. Also, the crew showed up late to the flight...at the last moment.
The fault with Flight 3411 is totally on UNITED and their stupid crew management. Don't blame the passenger for that.
The fault with Flight 3411 is totally on UNITED and their stupid crew management. Don't blame the passenger for that.
15
John, With all due respect are you sure of your facts? How do you now the deadheading crew wasn't a last minute tasking required by a last minute change of circumstances downline? (weather, or replacing a crew up against FAA max duty time, repositioned aircraft). You don't know the facts! And, neither do other commenters spouting off opinions. Unbelievable how folks like yourself will make wild conjectures. You have a pre-conceived notion. Google : Confirmation Bias. Thanks
As I recollect, US air travel had been going downhill even before 9/11. I remember the late 90s as an era of massive delays and frequent cancellations.
Up until then, United had been our family's preferred airline, but after several bad experiences, we stopped using United.
Two things that I think are better, anecdotally, over say the last ten years: delays (fingers crossed). And baggage retrieval: seems much faster than it used to be to pick up one's checked bags, and lost bag incidents seem fewer, too.
Up until then, United had been our family's preferred airline, but after several bad experiences, we stopped using United.
Two things that I think are better, anecdotally, over say the last ten years: delays (fingers crossed). And baggage retrieval: seems much faster than it used to be to pick up one's checked bags, and lost bag incidents seem fewer, too.
13
I have an ongoing joke with my travel agent about how I will endure long layovers in odd places rather than endure any long haul flight on ANY American carrier. United is the absolute worst, but I had terrible experiences on all the others. It was drastically apparent a few years ago when I got off in Brussels from a United flight limping from being so cramped (and I'm only 5'8"), hungry from the breakfast option being only a stale, cold muffin and an unripe banana and thirsty from the flight attendants routinely ignoring my requests for water. Yes, i asked, yes they said no problem, and then every single time it never arrived. The subsequent flight to Douala, Cameroon was a world away. I could walk, got enough to eat and my requests for water were responded to courteously and in a timely way. Why on earth would I ever ever ever fly on United again? I am extremely sympathetic to how rude the general traveling public can be, but if other countries and other airlines can make airline travel at least reasonably pleasant, why can't we?
116
Because our airlines aren't state subsidized.
14
Several privately held airlines (British Airways, Lufthansa, Virgin Atlantic) provide service that is, in my opinion, much better than that on United, American, or Delta on European routes.
16
Two of those are the sole flag carriers of their nations and not competing internally against 8-10 of their own domestic carriers.
1
It may be true that an airline ticket is sold on the condition that it can be revoked at any time for any reason. There's actually nothing wrong with this as long as the airline is very clear about the rule. What we need is regulation that requires airlines to specifically and very clearly state this fact at the time the ticket is offered for sale so there can be no confusion about what the customer is purchasing. Unfortunately these conditions are buried in fine print and the airlines have no interest in clarifying conditions that might jeopardize a sale.
8
It is NOT okay for business to have carte blanc to revoke contracts, no matter how plainly they may "warn" the customer.
15
The title conjures up images of teams of people, working together. But it's really hard to overlook the fact that not one single person stood up for this senior citizen. There's no us, there's only them.
8
Do you blame them when they saw the treatment he received? If they hadn't recorded it, who would known?
8
From the video I was impressed that other passengers shouted their horror at the police's actions on the older man. They reacted with courage.
As for the other three passengers who docilely exited from the plane, they knew better than raise objections. United interpreted those passengers' quiet agreement as 'no problem' with the instructions contrasting with Dr Dao's self-determination.
As for the other three passengers who docilely exited from the plane, they knew better than raise objections. United interpreted those passengers' quiet agreement as 'no problem' with the instructions contrasting with Dr Dao's self-determination.
7
Sandra; I'm not certain he obviously appeared as an older man, at least not to the cops, and I think that may be one reason the cops were so quick to beat him up.. He appears small, fit, and looked to me like he was wearing hiking pants. I think the other passengers may have been reacting to the plain horror of anyone being dragged down the aisle.
Had that doctor not been removed then whichever flight that United crew was being taken to operate would have been delayed for much longer or canceled. much better to remove one person to save literally hundreds more.
6
That was the fault of the crew location planners - BAD MANAGEMENT. they could have RESERVED those seats on the flight far ahead of time. DON'T blame the Paying Passengers. Think it through...
19
Biz griz nailed it. Factual, logical, and calm. Unlike most commenters on the other side of this issue.
3
I dunno I tried to reply but it might have deleted... There's no such thing as crew location planners. The airlines give you a monthly schedule with all flights you are operating and also any transportation to those locations if needed. They also have legions of reserves, which are called out when needed. Many many times there is no way to "reserve a seat ahead of time" or to plan for certain events. You make it seem like everything in aviation runs in a perfect world. When you have even a minor seeming event happen way down the chain somewhere it can ripple through the whole operation. These can include: weather, maintenance, airport construction, temporary flight restrictions, airport congestion, crew illness, crew rest rules, and myriad other issues. The past few weeks have seen huge instances of flights being cancelled or crews out of position due to IROPs (Irregular Operations) due to a combination of weather and, in some locations, runway construction. When this happens there's no way around it. The airlines have to staff their flights (in fact they are required to do so) or it won't just be one guy getting pulled off but literally hundreds more stranded passengers. The crew had to get on that Louisville flight or many many more people would've paid the price. When the passenger refused to give up his seat it meant that United was no longer in control of their aircraft. They were right to have him removed. He was wrong to fight the police and run back on. Please think.
7
Some folks are of the opinion that the doctor was obliged to give up his seat because of the terms of the CoC.
And under rule 25, it clearly states the terms on how and when a would-be passenger can be denied boarding, that is to say, actually getting on the plane. By allowing all passengers to physically board the aircraft, the airline lost the right to bump ticketed, seated customers.
A second rule, #21 meticulously details the numerous situations under which a seated passenger may be removed. And the glaring omissions were: overbooking and staffing needs.
Legally, because United did not include overbooking or simply wanting/needing seats for its employees in its lengthy and detailed list of reasons for refusing to transport a paying customer, United, in effect cannot use overbooking or needing extra seats as excuses to coerce a passenger to deplane.
When it's all said and done, it was United that violated the contract.
And under rule 25, it clearly states the terms on how and when a would-be passenger can be denied boarding, that is to say, actually getting on the plane. By allowing all passengers to physically board the aircraft, the airline lost the right to bump ticketed, seated customers.
A second rule, #21 meticulously details the numerous situations under which a seated passenger may be removed. And the glaring omissions were: overbooking and staffing needs.
Legally, because United did not include overbooking or simply wanting/needing seats for its employees in its lengthy and detailed list of reasons for refusing to transport a paying customer, United, in effect cannot use overbooking or needing extra seats as excuses to coerce a passenger to deplane.
When it's all said and done, it was United that violated the contract.
241
So, does that mean Mr. Kidd was in error when he said. . .
“When you buy a ticket, you subscribe to a Contract of Carriage that says basically that they can remove you at any time for many reasons, from the government requesting the space to you not smelling good.” said Mr. Kidd of the airline passengers’ association.
Just asking.
“When you buy a ticket, you subscribe to a Contract of Carriage that says basically that they can remove you at any time for many reasons, from the government requesting the space to you not smelling good.” said Mr. Kidd of the airline passengers’ association.
Just asking.
THANK YOU!!!!
1
@Hobbled. TedJ is right. And Mr Kidd was not in error, they can remove you for " many" reasons.... but overbooking or the need to get employees on are not one of those reasons.
1
I think using SECURITY AS AN EXCUSE ,everybody in aviation thinks its perfectly fine to treat passengers as a nuisance.You don't see that in Other countries.Here the threat of throwing you off the plane especially if non-white keeps everybody cowed.
Avoid American airlines whenever possible overseas,is my solution.
Avoid American airlines whenever possible overseas,is my solution.
31
I agree. I was pulled out of a security line at JFK 3 or 4 years ago for a more extensive check and was told to go stand in a certain spot, which I did. I just stood there and said nothing, waiting for the check. Nothing happened and after a while Iooked at my watch to see what time it was. The security agent then started screaming at me: CALM DOWN, CALM DOWN, WE'RE FIGHTING A WAR ON TERROR HERE!
4
So many aviation expert commenters! Thank you for illuminating us with such valuable, fact based expertise.
5
Yess, thank you. People have jumped to so many conclusions without doing any research or thinking. The media has really dropped the ball on this one too and opted for pure sensationalism rather than well rounded reporting. It's a shame.
3
Knowledge does outweigh opinion.
1
The key word is reject your boarding. I get blocking you at the gate but
What if you have already boarded as this guy did?
How is that not different. They scanned his ticket and allowed him to sit and secure his seat belt.
What if you have already boarded as this guy did?
How is that not different. They scanned his ticket and allowed him to sit and secure his seat belt.
15
Oscar Munoz should respectfully step down before a full blown war erupts between the people and corporate America. He had a good run and earn a good buck and he should think of the what would happen to the airlines if he stays on.
16
"Munoz has shown himself to be a smart, dedicated, and excellent leader who understands the value of communications. His ability to connect and share with employees his vision for the airline, and get them to rally behind it, is a key reason PRWeek named him 2017 Communicator of the Year."
(March 9, 2017) www.prweek.com
(March 9, 2017) www.prweek.com
4
Nothing mentioned here about connecting with passengers, or viewers of passenger-abuse videos.
17
Exactly, Michael C. Munoz spent the past year connecting with nose out of joint employees and "million milers."
1
Well, I just had a lovely trip from my home in Central Florida to Washington, D.C. via AmTrak. I vowed several years ago that I wouldn't subject myself to that torture (flying). Yes, it took longer. Yes, it was more expensive. I booked a roomette both ways on the Silver Meteor. Delicious meals included. Toilet and washbasin in the compartment. Outstanding service. Pleasant train mates. I will continue to travel by train.
afs
afs
160
Sounds lovely, but it doesn't work for those who have to travel abroad (where, incidentally, train travel is infinitely better than in the US).
3
Alice, Trains are perfect for you and a few others. But there's a reason why many more people take airlines. Because the airlines are a better choice for all of them. Very few, if any airline travelers will switch to Amtrak because of this incident or because of this comment. There's a lot of emotional commenters but when it comes down to it, folks know airlines do a better job.
Sounds like we can make this into a rule: travel stateside, take the train; travel abroad, take a foreign airline.
5
As a bi-coastal grandma living in NJ it's pretty much a given that I will be making frequent coast to coast trips on United. Also because of all the travel I do have "elite" status which hopefully counts for something. I always book an aisle seat well in advance. Once when I went to check in the night before I found that I had been bumped to a middle seat. I did call to complain and was upgraded at no charge to an aisle seat in economy plus. It's the little nickel and diming that drives me nuts. On a recent trip to Peru I decided I wanted to arrive rested so I used miles plus $500 to upgrade to first class. Much to my surprise I did not get free WiFi but had to pay some $30 for that "extra service." And when I went to select my dinner anticipating better than average economy fare, I selected the vegetarian option and was told they were all out. And further advised that I should have put that in my profile. Sure, go ahead, blame the passenger. And nickel and dime me even in first class!
78
Elaine
I take far fewer airplane trips than I used to and fly first class on any flight over 2 hours, using money saved on flying less. I can tell you that First Class is like what coach used to be. It is nothing special, but compared to coach, it is a world of difference. Even though they run out of entrees choices, you usually cannot request special meals and some airlines do not provide pillow and blankets in first class. The benefit is larger seat, two across with no middle seat. That is all I expect from flying first class. I feel lucky that I can choose to only fly first class, even if that means travelling twice a year instead of four times a year. Flying spoils a vacation. Once, it used to be part of the excitement of going away, now it is something dreaded and to get through.
I take far fewer airplane trips than I used to and fly first class on any flight over 2 hours, using money saved on flying less. I can tell you that First Class is like what coach used to be. It is nothing special, but compared to coach, it is a world of difference. Even though they run out of entrees choices, you usually cannot request special meals and some airlines do not provide pillow and blankets in first class. The benefit is larger seat, two across with no middle seat. That is all I expect from flying first class. I feel lucky that I can choose to only fly first class, even if that means travelling twice a year instead of four times a year. Flying spoils a vacation. Once, it used to be part of the excitement of going away, now it is something dreaded and to get through.
24
Hi MaryAnn,
I wasn't requiring a special meal. It was a pasta dish included on first class menu along with a beef entrée and a chicken dish. There were 2 other women also requesting the pasta and I guess it was very popular among the first class passengers because they were also told that it was gone. They had to go back to economy to service the 3 of us. BTW, vegetarian is in my profile so the service attendant wasn't quite correct on that point. Also on international flights there is always a meal served even in economy. Just nicer in first!
I wasn't requiring a special meal. It was a pasta dish included on first class menu along with a beef entrée and a chicken dish. There were 2 other women also requesting the pasta and I guess it was very popular among the first class passengers because they were also told that it was gone. They had to go back to economy to service the 3 of us. BTW, vegetarian is in my profile so the service attendant wasn't quite correct on that point. Also on international flights there is always a meal served even in economy. Just nicer in first!
6
How about this...put the blame on the despicable actions of the security agent rather than the airline.
6
caljin, Please don't try to apply logic in this emotional debate! You're taking away the fun
3
The goon squad didn't call themselves in.
1
All United had to do was solicit volunteers with a credit of two or three hundred dollars. I've only once seen the "bidding" go to $400 before volunteers rushed to take a later flight. United violated decency and exercised no common sense. They deserve to be punished severely in market place. Time will tell if they are also so arrogant as not to learn from this. I don't have much hope they will given our current era of inequality they only help promote.
16
They did. Up to $400. Paltry. I've seen offers of 1200 on delta. That gets people going. Instead united was super cheap and lost millions for their share holders.
I wouldn't fly an airline that puts profits over safety. Unrelated to this fiasco. Google it.
I wouldn't fly an airline that puts profits over safety. Unrelated to this fiasco. Google it.
12
They did solicit volunteers and offered something like $800. No one volunteered so they randomly picked 4 passengers to bump.
2
They offered $800 in vouchers. I accepted an offer like that once, for being denied boarding on a flight from St Thomas to JFK. The fine print said the voucher was only good for travel within the 48 states, good only for seats in Class L (basically an unsold seat available at the last minute), could only be used by appearing at their ticket desk (airport parking charges!) so it was basically unusable. Never again. The hotel meal voucher would not buy the cheapest item on the menu. Nobody at the airport was authorised to issue cash or cheque. I'd have to go to JFK or Atlanta.
8
Thanks Elaine,
I've read a number of articles on this incident and issue and this is one of the best: clear, succinct, informative and well-sourced.
I've read a number of articles on this incident and issue and this is one of the best: clear, succinct, informative and well-sourced.
7
I agree. The NYTimes coverage has been superior on this incident; I also think the comments have been much more illuminating and interesting than the typical male million mile flyer rants on airline forums.
1
Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. I feel sadness for the millennial generation who don't realize that before 9/11 flying was a more enjoyable experience. Now it's nothing but aggravation where you need to arrive well in advance to make sure you reach your destination on time and your luggage may or may not arrive at the same time you do.
Now the industry is upset because politicians are discussing the need for more oversight. This is a prime example that deregulation isn't always a good thing. Sadly, until consumers push back enough to hurt their bottom line or politicians actually push for more regulations they will just wait for this storm to pass and then it will be back to the business of making customers travel experiences as miserable as possible.
Now the industry is upset because politicians are discussing the need for more oversight. This is a prime example that deregulation isn't always a good thing. Sadly, until consumers push back enough to hurt their bottom line or politicians actually push for more regulations they will just wait for this storm to pass and then it will be back to the business of making customers travel experiences as miserable as possible.
35
I'm wondering why more people aren't pressuring their member of Congress and/or Senators to be more proactive in regulating the airlines. Given that everyone flies, this should be a bipartisan issue.
Mandating minimum seat lengths and widths, one free checked bag per passenger, and eliminating change fees seem like a good places to start.
Mandating minimum seat lengths and widths, one free checked bag per passenger, and eliminating change fees seem like a good places to start.
27
Because the American people have elected a Republican-controlled Congress and a Republican President. Regulation is not on the agenda. De-regulation is.
51
They WERE more regulated at one time but all people did was scream that free-wheeling capitalism would insure better prices. We got exactly what we asked for.
American people also seem to have become lazy when it comes to communicating in any kind of coherent way, protesting, etc. Easier to grouch than do something that might be productive.
4
Granted, what occurred on the United flight was unnecessary, extreme on all levels, and a situation that didn't need to end that way. I feel for the young man who was injured as well as the passengers who witnessed the ordeal and then had to continue on to their destination. I am sure the atmosphere was pretty darn frosty in the plane.
But for whatever it is worth, I have never had a negative experience on British Airways (which I travel on a few times every year) and okay experiences on American and United. Actually, the flight crew I encountered on United a few times were outstanding. Maybe I am just lucky while flying, but I never had to submit a complaint to any airline for rude or unprofessional behavior on the part of the crew.
There are only two things that really matter to me: that I depart and arrive safely to wherever I am flying to. Customer Service is extremely important, but having a plane that flies without incident and/or having a flight crew that can handle a crisis and advert a catastrophe is paramount in my book. The other thing that matters to me is getting free peanuts once again. Passengers should get free snacks on flights. Lord knows we paid enough for the ride.
6
Why, I ask, is common courtesy and plain good manners contrasted with safety, as if the one obliterates the need and value of the other???? Can we chew gum and walk, both at the same time??? I know that we have culturally moved far too far from this concept; it i in urgent need to be re-examined!!!!
3
Marge, just to clarify: it wasn't a "young man" who was manhandled, it was a 69-year-old doctor.
If I recall the reports correctly, at the very least he lost a couple of teeth in the scuffle, along with having his nose broken. His injuries sound fairly severe for a man of his age, and he is reported to need reconstructive surgery for his facial injuries.
Not to suggest it would be any less reprehensible if it had been done to a young man, but to know that this is how United (or more accurately, its subcontractor) treats senior citizens seems just a tad worse,
And, regrettably, with all the people claiming to have peanut allergies, you can kiss those peanut snacks goodbye forever...alas!
If I recall the reports correctly, at the very least he lost a couple of teeth in the scuffle, along with having his nose broken. His injuries sound fairly severe for a man of his age, and he is reported to need reconstructive surgery for his facial injuries.
Not to suggest it would be any less reprehensible if it had been done to a young man, but to know that this is how United (or more accurately, its subcontractor) treats senior citizens seems just a tad worse,
And, regrettably, with all the people claiming to have peanut allergies, you can kiss those peanut snacks goodbye forever...alas!
4
I absolutely despise United Airlines and would gladly see them go out of business next week. No airline I've been on (and I've been on lots) treats its customers with so little respect. But to be fair to the airlines for just a moment, I do understand the dilemma they face. We all purchase plane tickets purely on price. We want the lowest fare no matter what . . . and most of us would never even think of paying two cents more for a bit better service. So in a certain way, we customers get what we pay for. When when we consistently demand the lowest possible price, we should expect to consistently receive the lowest possible service.
So that was my moment of being fair . . . but fortunately it's over and I can get back to saying what I really feel. It's time to break up these near monopolies, force more competition, and introduce a host of new regulations to require airlines to treat their customers with dignity. This includes providing more space per seat, providing more room for bags and coats, clearly stating when a ticket allows the passenger to be bumped (and reducing the price accordingly), and providing fair compensation when flights are canceled or ticketed passengers not seated. When companies push too far, that's when we the people—acting through our government—need to push back. More regulation is what is needed. We the people must demand it.
So that was my moment of being fair . . . but fortunately it's over and I can get back to saying what I really feel. It's time to break up these near monopolies, force more competition, and introduce a host of new regulations to require airlines to treat their customers with dignity. This includes providing more space per seat, providing more room for bags and coats, clearly stating when a ticket allows the passenger to be bumped (and reducing the price accordingly), and providing fair compensation when flights are canceled or ticketed passengers not seated. When companies push too far, that's when we the people—acting through our government—need to push back. More regulation is what is needed. We the people must demand it.
49
What United Airlines (and all its competitors) need to do is to NOT sell seats it does not have.
Only that common-sense respect for customers can make up for this travesty.
Only that common-sense respect for customers can make up for this travesty.
17
Overbooking wasn't the problem in this case. That's common practice (in other businesses well). The problem should've been handled at the gate BEFORE boarding. This was just handled extremely poorly.
6
Sally B. How are you so sure the deadheading crew wasn't a last minute tasking? Interesting how people form strong opinions with insufficient facts. Thanks
1
Just because an action is termed "common practice" does not mean it is right, correct or acceptable; "it's the way things are" used to be an often employed expression not so long ago; I used to reply; " I know how things were and how they got how they are now". Let us, please, try to examine the correctness of the assumptions upon which so much of our lives are lived. Thank you.
1
I've read the Contract of Carriage. If the airline wants to give a seat to someone else, a passenger can be denied boarding involuntarily. But there's nothing in there saying they can remove a seated passenger based on it being an oversold flight. Removal of a passenger once seated is covered in another article of the contract and some of the justifications are drunkenness, belligerence, and so forth. Nothing about needing the seat for another customer or a crew member. United was out of line here, absolutely, and not acting within the contractual agreement.
136
I've seen the United terms several times now, calling out those who have been "involuntary... denied boarding", but I have yet to understand what that means. Doesn't it mean up to check in? Once you physically board the plane aren't you boarded?
21
I believe it means up to you're in the departure area and they don't let you on the plane. United's fine print seems to be silent on people who are already on the plane in assigned seats. Maybe need to hire better lawyers to make that clear.
1
As the song goes, "it's more than a feeling." It is reality. It starts with the deceit built into departure times and estimates for arrival of delayed aircraft and only escalates. My favorite story is Northwest telling us repeated that our late aircraft was due in at Logan Airport in an hour when it was still on the ground at O'Hare, and this lying continued for 10 hours.
22
Purchase of an airline ticket is one of the few contractual transactions anyone will engage in that gives only on party the right to change the terms of that contract at the drop of the hat without explanation or even a reason. You think you've purchased one thing and the next thing you know someone decides you've actually purchased something else that may or may not bear any resemblance to the thing you thought you bought. In just about any other transaction that would be breach of contract and pretty much against the law. Yet the airlines are allowed to do this with impunity. I will never get it.
31
Have you ever purchased health insurance? You enroll for a year during open enrollment and two weeks later, your insurer no longer covers your prescription medications or drops your favorite doctor or your preferred hospital...then, you're stuck for the next 50 weeks until you can change carriers. Little people are the only people bound by contracts. Big People (aka corporations) do whatever benefits them.
3
We use the Delta hub of Detroit (one of the best airports in USA). But on upcoming flight to China we had choice of nonstop in Delta, or one hour hop to Toronto on Air Canada, then nonstop. Even with connection the same total time in transit from Detroit. But there is one HUGE difference: For my husband & my business class flights in sleeper seats, it was more than$7,000 less expensive on Air Canada!
18
Couple this incident with the Wells Fargo debacle, and you have a clear picture of how corporate America sees its clientele.
123
Don't forget to add big Pharma to the list.
9
You're only partly correct regarding the origin of the enforcer mentality among cabin crews - 9/11 was certainly a factor, as was the recession and it's related effects of fleet reductions.
However, the origin can be traced to the late '70's when Flight Attendant unions convinced their membership, their passengers, and the government that Flight Attendants are on-board for your safety, not for your comfort and convenience.
This is, of course, statistical malarkey, but it was successful in giving Flight Attendants the raison d'etre they so desperately needed, once the courts had allowed them to work as long as they are physically able.
This was the start of the long decline from the memorable airline service of the past, to the police state that characterizes today's so-called friendly skies.
However, the origin can be traced to the late '70's when Flight Attendant unions convinced their membership, their passengers, and the government that Flight Attendants are on-board for your safety, not for your comfort and convenience.
This is, of course, statistical malarkey, but it was successful in giving Flight Attendants the raison d'etre they so desperately needed, once the courts had allowed them to work as long as they are physically able.
This was the start of the long decline from the memorable airline service of the past, to the police state that characterizes today's so-called friendly skies.
8
Safety as a part of the flight attendants' responsibilities has been considered part of the job since the 1930s, although the rules in effect for many years about appearance, weight, and even marital status certainly didn't make it seem that way. Remember that safety isn't just about accidents but about helping passengers with medical emergencies, mediating disputes between passengers, and other things we might not necessarily notice but which do impact safety for one or many passengers at any given time.
4
United has been going downhill for quite a while. They behave like amateurs who have no idea how to organize a flight or run an airline. This incident is more of the same. Dumb clumsy behavior. It makes them look like they don't know what they are doing, and I'm afraid that they really don't!!
I avoid them when at all possible.
Yes I know that what they did was "legal" but one has to admit, I think, that their stupid procedure has made them look...stupid.
I avoid them when at all possible.
Yes I know that what they did was "legal" but one has to admit, I think, that their stupid procedure has made them look...stupid.
12
It was legal back then for the bus driver to demand that Rosa Parks move to the back of the bus. In as much as airline ticket contracts (in the US) represent corporate power run amuck, we should be celebrating Dr. Dao's refusal to give up his seat as a way of protesting corporate injustice.
48
Dr. Dao, the hysterical passenger that refused to leave his seat and would have delayed literally hundreds of other paying passengers had he had his way, ain't no Rosa Parks.
That is a ridiculous assertion.
That is a ridiculous assertion.
3
No: UA would have delayed hundreds of passengers because of their ineptitude. They could have put their crew in a limo, or even a chartered flight for much less. Dr. Dao was a paying passenger too... he cannot be held responsible for delaying the flight the following day, because UA couldn't get its act straight. This situation would never arise if the laws were not unjustly tilted in favor of the corporate airlines. So whether he intended to or not, his refusal to give up his seat was a protest at this injustice. Many kinds of protest are illegal, but many are just.
8
Kudos to the three other passengers who acted like adults and peacefully deplaned after being asked. They deserve a greater financial reward than the doctor.
8
Thank you for injecting a little sense into this.
4
...just following orders.
13
You mean the sheep that blindly follow and allow for all our rights to continue to be stepped upon??
Since September 11, we have acquiesced to security theater and complete obedience to anything we were told to do by anyone in an airport. We thought this was keeping us safer. The transportation industry has taken full advantage of our fears and citizenship. Today, we need to be most afraid of the people who are supposed to keep us safe -- the flight crew and aviation security personnel.
I don't think threatening to boycott United will work. I wish some smart aviation person would tell us how much of our taxes dollars support the airlines, airports, etc. and what actions we can take to try to stop any tax payer subsidies to these thuggish companies and the ecosystem around them. If money is the most important thing, then let's deprive them of ours.
I don't think threatening to boycott United will work. I wish some smart aviation person would tell us how much of our taxes dollars support the airlines, airports, etc. and what actions we can take to try to stop any tax payer subsidies to these thuggish companies and the ecosystem around them. If money is the most important thing, then let's deprive them of ours.
46
Bombing Syria, the civil war and the refugee crisis is a tough story to tell and many find it depressing.
But showing a YouTube video of somebody being thrown off a plane is easy to understand, the moral high ground easy to find, and the media gets the clicks they desperately need.
It really happened so you can't call in fake news, more like hamburger helper news. People can proclaim their righteousness without the difficulty involved with understanding Syria.
But showing a YouTube video of somebody being thrown off a plane is easy to understand, the moral high ground easy to find, and the media gets the clicks they desperately need.
It really happened so you can't call in fake news, more like hamburger helper news. People can proclaim their righteousness without the difficulty involved with understanding Syria.
7
I detest flying. I used to enjoy it but those days are long gone. The nonsensical security measures, the frequent revelations that TSA misses dangerous items even while seeming to consistently annoy and inconvenience passengers, the downright unfriendly TSA agents, the annoying moving targets on prices with add-on charges for increasingly ridiculous "extras" like taking a bag with you, the low quality snacks that aren't worth the time and trouble they block the aisles for, the decreased leg room while continuing to allow passengers to put their seats back....there is no joy in flying. It is endured, and I cannot recall the last time someone said they were looking forward to the experience. It seems that someone with money and innovation could corner the market if they did it right.
27
This could be great news for UPS and Fed-EX: People shipping!!!!
8
When it comes to my 'rights' as a flying customer I generally assume I don't have much of any. I booked an economy seat last November for early this month. I chose a seat assignment on the aisle, which was on my reservation. When my boarding pass was printed out at the airport, United had switched me to a middle seat two rows further back. My original seat was occupied by a mother with a pre-teen. I figure because I travel alone that I'm an easy hit when someone wants a pair of seats ("Oh, she can sit anywhere"). The flight was 12 hours from Auckland to San Francisco. I was thoroughly annoyed, but just had to suck it up. Seats are not guaranteed no matter how early one makes the reservation...
97
Please, Anne-Marie, tell us all what airline did this to you without your consent...
13
We have experienced a similar incident on United and Delta....2 different international flights in the last 2 years. The sudden change of seats from the prepaid economy plus to economy. We were able to resolve and 'retrieve' our original reserved seats but not without a battle. It appears that both airlines will bump you out of your reserved seat if there is a slight change in flight departure time. Always check your reservation especially if notified of a departure time change! By the way, we only fly SouthWest domestically.
14
Good on you for being a compliant United passenger - I am sure they appreciate that. I stopped flying them after this type of treatment on a series of flight several years ago, and would never fly United again even if they gave me a free ticket.
2
I was once sitting on a flight where a seat was needed by the airline. The chief attendant offered a free ticket--no takers. She offered a free round trip in the US--no takers. Finally, round trip free ticket anywhere we fly business or 1st class. Many takers. Would have been hugely cheaper (and way more wise) in this case.
291
But you still have to pay taxes on the "free" ticket.
5
This practice seems a logical solution. A friend told me, however, that Federal regulations - not the contracts of carriage - impose a cap on what airlines can offer. Does anyone know whether this is accurate? If it is, what possibly could justify such a limitation?
It can't be accurate because Delta announced Friday they are empowering gate agents to offer up to $10,000 for voluntary bumping.
1
There's a lot of confusion over this incident. The media keep referring to the "bumping rules" that allowed this passenger to be wrestled from his seat and dragged off the plane. But the article itself explains bumping as "a passenger (with a boarding pass) who is denied boarding". Meaning not being given a seat, before boarding the plane. This passenger was not denied a seat. United had willingly boarded him and seated him on the plane. The stewardess had probably reminded him to buckle his seatbelt. The time for bumping had long passed. No, this was something far worse than "bumping". United wrenched back the seat they had willingly provided. That seems more like fraudulent business practice, combined with violence.
428
Please. This flight was not oversold. It was full with no overselling of tickets. United decided to bump passengers with reserved tickets who were SEATED in their proper seats. Stop with the oversold/overbooking mantra as if that makes this better.
257
Human nature predicts that a person is more likely to be upset and as well as more upset the closer a person is to their goal when thwarted. So at the point when a person has gone through the whole process on boarding and is actually seated and ready to go, it is also the point at which he / she is the least likely of their entire journey to be prepared to give up their seat. Very few people would be prepared, without significant perceived reward, to get back off the plane by that point. Even with reward, most would still need to calm down before they would be able to appreciate that reward objectively.
To make it worse, this guy was a doctor, trying to explain he had a patient to get to and they were demanding he get out of a seat he paid for for one of four member of airline STAFF. They couldn't have better provoked a "belligerent" (airlines description) reaction had they tried.
Given the majority of people seem to become their worst possible selves when travelling by air, the security issues in airports/planes, the "law enforcement opportunities" and the inherent dangers of large crowds: it really would make sense for airlines & airports to take a look at some simple bloody crowd control and "nudge" techniques. It's not like it's a young science and it would help their staff as much as it would benefit customer satisfaction.
To make it worse, this guy was a doctor, trying to explain he had a patient to get to and they were demanding he get out of a seat he paid for for one of four member of airline STAFF. They couldn't have better provoked a "belligerent" (airlines description) reaction had they tried.
Given the majority of people seem to become their worst possible selves when travelling by air, the security issues in airports/planes, the "law enforcement opportunities" and the inherent dangers of large crowds: it really would make sense for airlines & airports to take a look at some simple bloody crowd control and "nudge" techniques. It's not like it's a young science and it would help their staff as much as it would benefit customer satisfaction.
11
Four UA employees had to be flown to Kentucky. UA didn't anticipate this. Therefore an elderly doctor had to be dragged, kicking, screaming, and bloody, off the plane.
Bring back regulations.
Bring back regulations.
9
Mamawalrus: I suspect neither the bouncers nor the gate agents knew the passenger's age. Off the top of my head, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if people like them come from places where being almost 70 is associated with obesity, canes and walkers. The Dr. was small, fit (he looked to be wearing hiking trousers to me), and not totally white haired.
1
The article says that average airline fares have dropped from $459 to $349 in about the last 20 years.
I would much, much rather be paying an extra hundred bucks and get the service of 20 years ago than what we are dealing with today. Anyone who thinks this overall level of crummy service is worth putting up with for a savings of $100 is out of their mind. We (and the environment) would all be much better off if we spent the same money and flew three pleasant trips instead of four miserable ones.
This is not progress.
I would much, much rather be paying an extra hundred bucks and get the service of 20 years ago than what we are dealing with today. Anyone who thinks this overall level of crummy service is worth putting up with for a savings of $100 is out of their mind. We (and the environment) would all be much better off if we spent the same money and flew three pleasant trips instead of four miserable ones.
This is not progress.
221
You forget all the "fees" we now pay even though the airline fare is lower. Baggage fees are a big one, overweight/oversize baggage fees, picking your seat fees, extra leg room fees, meal fees, drink fees, etc. That probably adds up to an extra $100 for your airfare right there. So your airfare is NOT really lower! They just want you to THINK it's lower!
16
Regulation worked.
4
Don't forget, those 'higher' fares of 20 yrs ago included a helluva lot more than they do today: bags and carryons, bigger seat, far better customer service re. changing/cancelling tickets, food/drink on-board...
4
Clearly, there is a difference between "bumping" a passenger before they are allowed to board and removing a passenger from a plane. Once the airline has allowed a passenger to board, revoking that because it failed to anticipate its need for other seats is outrageous. The airline made a mistake: responding by trying to get a passenger off the plane (and, worse, doing so with violence) is completely out of line. But, airlines are treating passengers outside first class like ballast. That's the real issue.
237
Well, I have also been treated as "ballast" during one of the rare times I flew first class, too. So I have decided not to spend that extra money!
There isn't much talk about what the criteria was to identify the four passengers to be bumped off the United flight. How did they identify these four? Why isn't the media focusing on that? Why aren't the lawmakers demanding to know that? Why aren't people asking that question? Why isn't there a demand for an answer to that question? It goes to the very heart of us as a people. Dang United's PR fiasco.
24
I read elsewhere it was done by algorithm to ensure randomness. I noticed because I was wondering the same thing
3
It had been reported that the Dr paid the lowest fare, so that may have been among the criteria.
Yes it is one of the ways that this selection is done. But we don't know for sure that that is how it was done in this case. I think we need to be absolutely sure. The only way to make absolutely sure is to get this information out from United. I am sure the lawsuit will get it out if NYT cannot.
I was somewhat surprised at the public outrage over the removal of the passenger from the United Airlines flight. As the writer of this article points out, he did, in effect, sign a contract saying that the airline has the right to remove him from a flight for variety of reasons.
When he refused to comply with the terms of that agreement, I believe that police officers acted within the law to remove him forcibly.
That he's a little old man might gain him some sympathy from the beleaguered traveling public, but it doesn't make his tantrum any more right. He's old enough to know better.
When he refused to comply with the terms of that agreement, I believe that police officers acted within the law to remove him forcibly.
That he's a little old man might gain him some sympathy from the beleaguered traveling public, but it doesn't make his tantrum any more right. He's old enough to know better.
11
Tell it to his lawyer.
5
You're confused. He did not throw a "tantrum." He is not a child. He was assaulted.
53
None of the allowed reasons for which passengers may be removed from planes apply to the passenger on the United flight. He was not being disruptive or violent, and he was not bumped to make way for another passenger. He was sitting in his seat, having been allowed on, and was asked to give up his seat for an airline employee.
27
Some Contract of Carriage provisions are necessary due to the nature of flying, the problem is since 9/11, the airlines have exploited every angle to increase revenue, at the expense of comfort, friendliness, and social class. Now they have a toxic brew that sets up what we saw from United, more often than we know. They are after all, in the people business. It is what once made flying romantic, efficient, and attractive. The airlines need to do what all the big venues do, make it safe without us even knowing about it. Make us welcome.
21
Ancillary to this, airline personnel now take on a very paternalistic attitude toward customers. On one Lufthansa flight, the plane landed and, as they are wont to do, most passengers rose from their seats and began taking down their carry-on luggage. The stewardess singled out my wife among about 75 people doing the same thing, and told her to sit down. When my wife said, "why aren't you telling everyone to sit down?" the stewardess said, 'I'll see to it that you're the last person off of this plane." At the ticket counter, again, Lufthansa, there was a large crowd as there had been a news bulletin that the pilots were going to strike the next day (and passengers were trying to rearrange flights). A counter person said to another, right in front of me, "what are all these people doing here?'" "They're here because of the strike," the other counter person replied. "Can't we just line them up and shoot them?" the first one said. Unfortunately, this is the prevailing attitude of at least Lufthansa personnel.
21
I wouldn't call that paternalistic, unless your idea of a father is a revenge-driven totalitarian dictator.
8
I have flown Lufthansa many times and never observed anything close to what you say. Compared to United, let me me add this: A few years ago United rescheduled my return flight from Europe to such an early time, that I could not be at the airport in time. A cab ride would have taken hours, public transport wasn't available early enough. I called United and was told that I would receive a voucher for a free hotel stay at the airport. I cut my stay short by 1 day, showed up at the airport before 8 p.m., but could not find anyone at United. Lufthansa was nearby and I went to their counter, where I was told that "United had gone home". At one of the biggest airports in the world! The LH agents offered to check my booking and told me that I wasn't even booked on the new flight, despite having email confirmation. UA booking had made a technical error that meant I wasn't booked at all. The LH agents spent a lot of time calling UA in the US to get it straightened out and finally managed to get me on. They couldn't help with the voucher, though, and I was forced to get a hotel at my own expense. Bottom line: United cost me an extra day of vacation, hours of stress, expensive hotel and meal costs and caused extra work/staffing costs for LH. Lufthansa, despite being under no obligation to me, did all they could to help.
4
I've been flying mostly Southwest for many years and have never been disappointed. The only delays I've experienced were weather-related. Maybe I'm just lucky because of where I've lived (FL and TX). They occasionally oversell, yes, but it's handled politely and efficiently at the ticket counter. Besides I plan for it, always have a back-up, but have needed it only twice.
39
Southwest really is super. I've been flying them as long as they've been around and I've never been disappointed.
6
United has made it clear that they will resell a seat if someone offers a higher price. So if you've bought a ticket for $63 (the lowest amount restricted United coach fare listed by Flightaware from Chicago to Louisville) and someone agrees to buy a seat for a fare of $341 (the highest), you're bumped.
The airline should be required to offer the bumped customer twice the highest price paid for that flight. And they should be required to offer cash, not a voucher that has an actual value far less than the face value.
The airline should be required to offer the bumped customer twice the highest price paid for that flight. And they should be required to offer cash, not a voucher that has an actual value far less than the face value.
64
If you are involuntarily bumped the Department of Transport rules mandate that the airline give you cash (a check actually) if you request cash.
3
Just try. The only person authorised to issue a check is unavailable, or is at JFK, or is beind security in another terminal so you can't get to him, or . .
It will take hours or days, while life goes on all around you.
It will take hours or days, while life goes on all around you.
1
The airlines have reduced passengers to human freight.
65
One more reason to hate the airlines. They are all just dreadful.
29
This sorry episode reflects the corporate America's mindset today: Seeing customers as cows to be milked dry without taking care of them.
158
We have reviewed the damage to our armrest caused by the head of the unruly passenger and are shocked and saddened by that loss. We are pleased announce the removal of all armrests from Coach, which will happily allow us to now seat 4 passengers abreast instead of 3 passengers*. Note:* the term "passenger" does not afford any rights beyond the right to pay a series of fees which may or may not culminate in travel on our airline.
172
Very, very soon.... any day now, ALL seats will be removed and replaced w/racks, livestock will be strapped in.... picture a tilt-a-wheel at the fair, allowing for DOUBLE the cargo, humans... whatever.... don't panic, it's not ALL bad news.... profits and executive salaries will double, so see.... always a silver lining....
1
I quit flying years ago. All the airlines have done is jam more seats into the planes, cut out services, institute fees for everything, merge together so one has less choices, and generally make one feel miserable when flying. I am older and have the option of driving there and I exercise that option.
And don't get me started on the TSA checks since 9/11.
And don't get me started on the TSA checks since 9/11.
48
"Now with consolidation, with four to five major airlines, they don’t have to worry about market share.” I thought monopolies weren't allowed in our free-market, capitalist society. I further thought the free market worked for everyone, that competition is healthy and benefits the consumer.
Let this be a lesson to those championing a free-market solution to the country's healthcare woes. Can't wait to see poorer patients dragged from hospital beds to make room for higher-paying customers—er, patients.
Let this be a lesson to those championing a free-market solution to the country's healthcare woes. Can't wait to see poorer patients dragged from hospital beds to make room for higher-paying customers—er, patients.
254
It is a 'free' market - just not what you are thinking of as 'free' . Free markets actually means businesses are 'free' to abuse their clients as they see fit and they can profit.
The American way in the age of Republicanism !
The American way in the age of Republicanism !
3
Exactly: the ideal is one thing, reality the opposite. The airlines have used the crisis in 2008, brought on by corporate malfeasance writ large, to squeeze every possible cent out of the consumer while the fortunes of the airline's improve with the economy. The executives make millions but people complain about the front line staff making a working wage. The airlines are making massive profits for their investors while continuing to make air travel ever more miserable for the people who *must* use it. Instead of looking at the issues involved, general consensus blames the victims (they're cheap! 20 years ago, they had a fight with someone!). The airlines will now throw a lot of money at a few people, and all will continue as usual.
3
It was pathetic of United to have removed the passenger forcibly. The matter could have been resolved amicably at the gate. As a frequent flyer with United I do not feel like flying United anymore, if this is the level of "customer service".
95
Service has become secondary on airplanes these days, and it isn't much at that. Add in flight attendants who see themselves as enforcers, and you wonder why you fly. To quote our president: SAD.
15
Anger? Hostility? Spitefulness? Who knew? After years of such lovely treatment by TSA and by the airlines at large, why should customers feel anything but undying gratitude? In fact, to show our mutual respect, we'd like to drag the head of United down the aisle by his wrists. I'm sure all the passengers will stand and applaud at the sight.
264
Yes. But first we should allow him a couple of flights in economy so he'll know what he's been missing.
5
Applaud? Probably fling a few scorpions too....
It is important to remember a company owes its allegiance to its Board and shareholders. Most companies pay lip service to caring for customers. As long as United continues to pay dividends to shareholders, I doubt the company culture will change.
24
Which is why we need regulation to protect consumers and employees. (Are you listening Donald Trump voter?)
11
Which is why our only defense is to hit them in the pocketbook. I expect that the majority of air passengers really don't need to get where they are going.
1
For what it's worth, UAL currently pays no dividend. Except for Delta's and Allegiant's (1.84% yield each), most airlines' dividends are either symbolic or nonexistent.
1
Exactly why airlines should be regulated. Exactly why we should get rid of Citizens United. Exactly why republicans are intensely disliked.
349
I was highly amused to read in another forum that the solution to incidents like this was deregulating the airlines, "like Reagan did."
4
True, true, and truest of all!
2
If Republicans are intensely disliked, why do they control most of the statehouses, as well as the House and Senate?
4
What is missing from this discussion is the fact that flights are often overbooked because corporate contracts allow them guaranteed seats on planes at whim, and to be 'no-show' for those seats, with impunity. Other passengers are then bumped if these options are exercised on an otherwise full flight.
Large companies have travel contracts with the airlines that get their people on board at the drop of a hat. Even a mid sized company in a medium city might have this kind of option for their executives. The airline counts on them not using the option, which they don't 99% of the time. But when they do, other regular passengers are made to suffer. In this case violently, which is indefensible.
Large companies have travel contracts with the airlines that get their people on board at the drop of a hat. Even a mid sized company in a medium city might have this kind of option for their executives. The airline counts on them not using the option, which they don't 99% of the time. But when they do, other regular passengers are made to suffer. In this case violently, which is indefensible.
26
Customer service and profitability are not mutually exclusive. Neither is comfort and efficiency.
Once airlines were allowed to flush their pension obligations via bankruptcy, it validated that customer were not humans but flesh-based cargo. Even in the earliest days of the railroad, customers were the most despised cargo because us travelers want maximum amenities and minimal costs. And competition drives down costs. Though the US air market has transformed into an oligopoly, there is new and strong competition from the Persian Gulf carriers and other national flag carriers. Caribbean countries, for example, have long stopped depending on market forces to allow American common carriers to fly to their countries, opting instead to fly to the US with their own planes, usually at a loss.
Since quality customer service is not mandated be either the DOT/FAA or the American consumer base itself, American travelers need to continue to vote with their dollars. Same as the Gulf carriers are owning the transatlantic long haul routes, we need to continue to divest our travel dollars to alternative airline models. It is high time that Americans stop digesting the garbage logic of jobs fetish and actually thing about broad economic effects. Most of the large airlines in the US exist merely to turn revenue into shareholder value. It is high time that a more cooperative airline model is developed that can move many people in rudimentary comfort in an efficient manner.
Once airlines were allowed to flush their pension obligations via bankruptcy, it validated that customer were not humans but flesh-based cargo. Even in the earliest days of the railroad, customers were the most despised cargo because us travelers want maximum amenities and minimal costs. And competition drives down costs. Though the US air market has transformed into an oligopoly, there is new and strong competition from the Persian Gulf carriers and other national flag carriers. Caribbean countries, for example, have long stopped depending on market forces to allow American common carriers to fly to their countries, opting instead to fly to the US with their own planes, usually at a loss.
Since quality customer service is not mandated be either the DOT/FAA or the American consumer base itself, American travelers need to continue to vote with their dollars. Same as the Gulf carriers are owning the transatlantic long haul routes, we need to continue to divest our travel dollars to alternative airline models. It is high time that Americans stop digesting the garbage logic of jobs fetish and actually thing about broad economic effects. Most of the large airlines in the US exist merely to turn revenue into shareholder value. It is high time that a more cooperative airline model is developed that can move many people in rudimentary comfort in an efficient manner.
68
Frank Lorenzo & Carl Ichan.
4
And let us not forget it was Frank Lorenzo who gutted Continental and was responsible for hiring a lot of trashy employees, many of whom are still there are now United employees following the merger.
1
You mean like Aeroflot?
"United’s terms, which are standard in the industry, stipulate that the airline must compensate passengers on domestic flights who were involuntarily denied boarding on an oversold flight at double the fare they paid, up to $675, if the alternative flight is scheduled to arrive less than two hours after the original flight. Beyond that it must pay four times the original fare, up to $1,350."
Hrmph. Not so much.
I was in my seat on a United flight from Chicago to Pittsburgh to attend my daughter's graduation the next morning when they started asking for volunteers to give up their seats to 4 flight attendants in exchange for vouchers for the price of their tickets. Soon a man was kneeling next to my seat telling me I was going to be involuntarily removed because I had the lowest priced ticket. I was incredulous and, with escalating panic in my voice, I exclaimed, "Really?! Because if this is happening, I have to call my daughter back right away! She just called me from the city bus and is about to transfer to another bus to meet me at the airport; she doesn't have a car, and it takes her over an hour to get to the airport by bus; she will have to go back to her apartment. And then the next flight doesn't get in until after midnight. We won't even get to her apartment until after 1am, and her graduation is at 10am." Fortunately, at that point a woman sitting across the aisle and one row back leapt out of her seat and said, "I'll do it!" and ran off the plane.
Hrmph. Not so much.
I was in my seat on a United flight from Chicago to Pittsburgh to attend my daughter's graduation the next morning when they started asking for volunteers to give up their seats to 4 flight attendants in exchange for vouchers for the price of their tickets. Soon a man was kneeling next to my seat telling me I was going to be involuntarily removed because I had the lowest priced ticket. I was incredulous and, with escalating panic in my voice, I exclaimed, "Really?! Because if this is happening, I have to call my daughter back right away! She just called me from the city bus and is about to transfer to another bus to meet me at the airport; she doesn't have a car, and it takes her over an hour to get to the airport by bus; she will have to go back to her apartment. And then the next flight doesn't get in until after midnight. We won't even get to her apartment until after 1am, and her graduation is at 10am." Fortunately, at that point a woman sitting across the aisle and one row back leapt out of her seat and said, "I'll do it!" and ran off the plane.
137
So you paid the lowest price. You paid what they were asking. Not a penny more. This wasn't a barter deal. It was a prefix price to get you to Pittsburgh. Offer. Acceptance. Consideration.
Recalls the time I was in a restaurant and I didn't order the expensive steak and got pasta instead. I asked for silverware and the fork and knife were dirty. I asked for clean cutlery but the waited said you only get clean utensils when you order the expensive meals.
Recalls the time I was in a restaurant and I didn't order the expensive steak and got pasta instead. I asked for silverware and the fork and knife were dirty. I asked for clean cutlery but the waited said you only get clean utensils when you order the expensive meals.
2
None of this explains United's personnel's behavior; it was just plain mean and violent.If I received such a strong dissent from a passenger, I would know to go on to the next person, not call the cops.
104
Well, that sounds good. Except that the next passenger may just decide to copy what could be interpreted as the successful behavior of the passenger who had refused and refuse also.
3
(I have endless sympathy for people who don't have a choice and must tolerate the indignities of 21st century air travel. Likewise, I respect the vast majority of flight attendants who try hard to minimize those indignities.)