A simple, but effective answer is, if called for jury duty on a case related to ATF ask if everything is above board. Ask if all government funds have been presented and, acknowledged by the head of ATF.
1
Taxes on cigarettes exist everywhere . Actually
collecting the tax is the hard part. I have friends
who continue to smoke and brag about getting their
cigarettes on the Indian reservations essentially
tax free . None of this income is taxed or reported
yet all we hear is how our ' Indigenous people ' never
get enough of my tax dollars. I am sure the same situation
exists south of the border.
collecting the tax is the hard part. I have friends
who continue to smoke and brag about getting their
cigarettes on the Indian reservations essentially
tax free . None of this income is taxed or reported
yet all we hear is how our ' Indigenous people ' never
get enough of my tax dollars. I am sure the same situation
exists south of the border.
Well let's see ... a governmental agency is receiving bad press and intense scrutiny for a hair-brained scheme to sell guns to the bad guys. So their response is to correct the problems by starting another hair-brained scheme to enter into the smuggling business. Superior management style. This country had a director of the national intelligence ... that has to be an oxymoron if every there was one ... that perjures himself in front of congressional committee. For a short term this country had director of the defense intelligence and the national security advisor collaborating with Russia. And we still have a president that will not release his tax returns so there is no way of knowing how bad he is selling the country down the river. We do know that rump's decades long fight with China for a trademark was resolved shortly after the rump came out in support of the one China policy. We also know that the current secretary of state, when he was CEO of EXXON, was in bed with the Russians in gaining exploration rights on 69.7 million acres of Soviet land
All politicians are corrupt ... term limits need to be enacted ... but the American people will follow the crooks like a flock of sheep.
All politicians are corrupt ... term limits need to be enacted ... but the American people will follow the crooks like a flock of sheep.
1
Have you noticed how little we read about organized crime these days? That's because it's gone out of business now that "legitimate" businesses and our own government from the top down have taken over the rackets.
2
Did it ever occur to you the ATF was caught doing this during Obama Administration and it started during the Bush Administration. Regardless they are all crooks. This article barely scrapes the surface on Jason Carpenter and the ATF. And Big South was just one Wholesale mentioned, there were at least 5 more Wholesales like this and ATF made it impossible for any company not to go through them at this point. They pretty much had every distributor in the South working for them, and if they weren't they were having a difficult time succeeding. I believe there are many companies should be compensated for the wrong doing of the Jason Carpenters and the ATF. But not for one second do I believe US Tobacco Cooperative did not know what was going on because Wildhorse cigarette brand was mixed up in a large majority of all this debacle.
https://oig.justice.gov/reports/2013/a1336.pdf
Look at this and let me know what you think, It's a audit report about the ATF investigations. If it don't work, type in "Audit of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives' Use of Income Generating, Undercover Operations"
https://oig.justice.gov/reports/2013/a1336.pdf
Look at this and let me know what you think, It's a audit report about the ATF investigations. If it don't work, type in "Audit of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives' Use of Income Generating, Undercover Operations"
HOBY, why are you so desperate to place blame for this on President Bush. Check the dates in the article. It didn't start up until well into the Obama Administration. It was also started after Fast and Furious had been exposed.
I find the desire to lay blame on either president disgusting. The NYT is reporting a members of an agency going rogue. This happens, when government employees go outside the law and start circumventing the checks and balances of the Government they are suppose to work for.
They broke the law. Unfortunately it is my guess that no one will go to jail, no one will be fired, and the worst case will be someone will retire under a full government pension at my tax expense for selling something that kills it's citizens.
They broke the law. Unfortunately it is my guess that no one will go to jail, no one will be fired, and the worst case will be someone will retire under a full government pension at my tax expense for selling something that kills it's citizens.
Harry Truman had a sign on his desk that read, "The buck stops here." Harry didn't shirk responsibility as our Chief Executive. Preside NT Obama can't say the same.
Government at its best! Just remember, the Obama admin was scandal (reporting) free!
2
A fine example of the Bush2 Regime's alternative funding schemes: sell drugs to stupid people, then use the money to arrest and convict other drug sellers.
Did you miss the part where it was made clear that this all occurred during the Obama Administration?
1
If ATF profited through a sting operation, as this article suggests, that goes beyond their charter, and beyond the constitutional requirement that congress initiate taxes and tariffs. Examples of such misuse come to mind from funding the Contras by selling weapons to Iran to improper seizure and auctioning of private property without conviction for crime.
Imagine the possibilities of using intelligence agencies to engage in insider trading in financial markets worldwide. If we do it off-shore, is it a crime?
Such revenue streams cannot be authorized by bureaucrats who have no such legal authority, even if they think they do. That would be a separate crime.
The government should report and return such profits voluntarily when such operations are necessary to catch criminals, not hide and obstruct when they have defrauded innocent people.
Imagine the possibilities of using intelligence agencies to engage in insider trading in financial markets worldwide. If we do it off-shore, is it a crime?
Such revenue streams cannot be authorized by bureaucrats who have no such legal authority, even if they think they do. That would be a separate crime.
The government should report and return such profits voluntarily when such operations are necessary to catch criminals, not hide and obstruct when they have defrauded innocent people.
3
Don't blame this on Donald Trump. How many years has our government been operating outside the bounds of the Law? Our government is stinking, rotten and corrupt right to the heart.
1
If the government runs a black market enterprise does that "business" pay all applicable taxes? If not, are there tax evasion charges to be brought against those involved? Or does the IRS provide a "professional courtesy" pass to other government agencies also engaged in illegal activity?
1
“Part of their defense, records show, is that they acted on behalf of the government. In response, a judge recently added the United States government as a defendant.”
So the government had enacted anti-racketeering legislation, that gave them the license to prosecute organized criminals and seize their property; and in turn, have become worse criminals than the ones that they had deposed.
And unfortunately, many people who were not at all involved with organized criminal activities, had their lives and livelihoods utterly destroyed by government gangsters and thugs, sometimes for no other reason than some completely unfounded hearsay evidence, which was often planted by another corrupt government agent and/ or infiltrator, or for thoughtless and greedy aims and ambitions.
At least, most of the organized criminals that had preceded them, had a general sense to leave well-enough alone, and not to interfere where they do not belong; something that Big Brother & the Controlling Company apparently has never learned, and seems to be incapable of learning.
More to follow...
So the government had enacted anti-racketeering legislation, that gave them the license to prosecute organized criminals and seize their property; and in turn, have become worse criminals than the ones that they had deposed.
And unfortunately, many people who were not at all involved with organized criminal activities, had their lives and livelihoods utterly destroyed by government gangsters and thugs, sometimes for no other reason than some completely unfounded hearsay evidence, which was often planted by another corrupt government agent and/ or infiltrator, or for thoughtless and greedy aims and ambitions.
At least, most of the organized criminals that had preceded them, had a general sense to leave well-enough alone, and not to interfere where they do not belong; something that Big Brother & the Controlling Company apparently has never learned, and seems to be incapable of learning.
More to follow...
2
Who can you trust? Just as it's bad for a child to have bad parents, it's bad for a nation to have bad government. However, who really cares? Apparently not many of us except for the growers in this article. However if they had made lots of good money selling the pernicious weed I can guarantee they would be very happy. In the United States money washes everything clean. Have puff and relax.
2
Going native, temptation, who watches the watchers?
California recently passed Prop 56. Prop 56 increased the tax on a pack of cigarettes by $2. The expected tax revenues beginning in April 2017 is $1.4 billion per year.
California recently passed Prop 56. Prop 56 increased the tax on a pack of cigarettes by $2. The expected tax revenues beginning in April 2017 is $1.4 billion per year.
After World War II, tobacco was used as "economic stimulus" barter by our occupying forces in (at least) Germany. My uncle bragged that he bought his exquisite living room suite via footlockers of cigarettes. We still have millions of people addicted to tobacco. Nursing homes, prisons and mental health care facilities still provide "smoke breaks" in order to maintain peace among the inhabitants, many of whom go manic, screaming their lungs out, until they get those "breaks". I can foresee Donald Trump "executive-ordering" to abolish laws against tobacco sales in order to restore tobacco as a major industry and brag about creating jobs. One of the issues dealing with Obama's Trans-Pacific Partnership trade agreements was that tobacco companies could sue for loss of income. I first heard of a Surgeon Genera's warning about the health risks of tobacco in the early 1960's, over 55 years ago. In a store my mother operated at a large mental hospital in Connecticut, I saw our cigarette orders dip for a month or so, then surge back to even greater heights. How much longer will killer tobacco be grown and sold?
1
"After The New York Times began asking about the operation last summer, the Justice Department disclosed it to the department’s inspector general’s office, which is investigating. The inspector general “expressed serious concerns,” court records show." so this was done during the Obama- Lynch tenire somehow the headline missed that fact. Honesty does matter ..not at the Times
6
Obama's second ATF scandal, maybe he'll finally have to face the music for his corruption. Hopefully A.G. Sessions will get to the bottom of this caper. What did Obama know, and when did he know it?
6
Sounds to me like the ATF and their leadership and agents are the ones responsible. If you're going to hold the president directly responsible for every action of every government agency then let's get busy with the hugely corrupt Trump Administration before it goes too far.
Clearly you forgot to mention that the Fast and Furious operation, as well as this latest scandal, occurred under the Obama administration, with the Obama Justice Department basically looking the other way. Perhaps if the administration and it's militant Justice Department spent less time investigating legitimate enforcement of illegal immigration and more time on corruption and crime, there would be no Fast and Furious of other A.T.F scandals.
You, your editorial staff, and so-called reporters have no difficulty criticizing any utterance of the Trump administration, but nary a word about your now out of office false god.
IMHO you go beyond fake news, you deliberately mislead and throw a rosy blanket over the gross errors and bad judgement of the Obama administration.
You, your editorial staff, and so-called reporters have no difficulty criticizing any utterance of the Trump administration, but nary a word about your now out of office false god.
IMHO you go beyond fake news, you deliberately mislead and throw a rosy blanket over the gross errors and bad judgement of the Obama administration.
6
Slow your roll. They put the timeline in the article and assumed their readers are aware of you was president at the time. Gosh, Trump's been in office for more than a month. Why hasn't he fixed this yet? The federal government has a lot of working parts; it is not some grand monolith. No one president can make all the parts line up perfectly. This should have been investigated before now. That doesn't mean that Obama was trying to hide.
3
How many times in the past month have you read the word Trump in the NYT? How many times in this article did you read the word Obama? Timelines aside, it is hard to miss a word when it is in your face. Intellectual honesty is sorely lacking in the new NYT.
Fix it in a month? Get real, how about " a lot of working parts"? Obama was in office for 96 months, surely you can accept that he had far more time to get a grip on his government. He clearly had enough time to direct the I.R.S. but, of course, that too received the rosy blanket treatment by most media outlets.
Justice could have released a report this past summer, but that might have made the administration look bad during a heatedly contested presidential race. Just sayin', balance would be a welcome change at the NYT.
Fix it in a month? Get real, how about " a lot of working parts"? Obama was in office for 96 months, surely you can accept that he had far more time to get a grip on his government. He clearly had enough time to direct the I.R.S. but, of course, that too received the rosy blanket treatment by most media outlets.
Justice could have released a report this past summer, but that might have made the administration look bad during a heatedly contested presidential race. Just sayin', balance would be a welcome change at the NYT.
Why hasn't toddler Trump signed an executive order to seize the assets and bank accounts of illegal immigrants?? It would just be another way for the government to steal, er make money....slush funds etc....
The solution is to replace every Member of the House and Senate with independent people who take a simple oath not to accept any money from anyone. Then we can end all of this corruption.
http://michaelslevinson.com
http://michaelslevinson.com
3
Another lesson for our nation's leaders and citizens. What may start out as slightly skirting rules and the law as a sensible way to do good can quickly get out of control. Many government organizations are guilty & have gone around & abused the law - Trump seems to be going at break neck speed - but laws and guidelines where put in place for a reason.
Interesting article. Also worth noting that the NYTimes never mentioned this all happened in the Obama administration.
I guess that would not be politically correct.
I guess that would not be politically correct.
5
It’s time to resend the extra ‘morality’ taxes on tobacco and alcohol. Just as Probation failed to stop people from doing what they wanted, these taxes are the government’s continued attempt at behavior modification through taxation; along with being another money income. Quit legislating morality. (Full disclosure: I don’t smoke but I do drink wine).
Sounds a bit like "Fast and Furious" except this is more like "Slow and Idiotic." I'm sure we all enjoy seeing our government at work.
1
This happened after Fast and Furious had been exposed, so it is worse because it is repeated criminal behavior.
So to all who are complaining that they can not grow a different crop because it will not compensate them as much as tobacco. That is the same argument that is used by every coca farmer in the world. You can still make a living growing something else just not as much.Oh well! Is that anything like the workers of America who have not received a decent raise in 25 years. I am supposed to feel sorry for them ? Really.
I am more concerned about the illegality of the scheme conceived by ATF. We the people have better watch out because there seams to be as much corruption in this country as in a third world country. We need to remember " always question authority "
I am more concerned about the illegality of the scheme conceived by ATF. We the people have better watch out because there seams to be as much corruption in this country as in a third world country. We need to remember " always question authority "
Growing and selling tobacco is legal -- growing and selling coca is not. Legality may not be the last word, but it is surely the first word. Save your indignation for a more worthy target.
The fact that the distinction between legality and illegality gets ignored speaks volumes...
The fact that the distinction between legality and illegality gets ignored speaks volumes...
Instead of writing about this in this incoherent, essay fashion, how about getting a timeline of events going? When did this entity, Big South, come to life? Under what auspices? Was it created by these ATF guys or did they buy it from someone else? Why do ATF agents need this slush fund for their normal work? Did they just use this to buy iPads and electronic gadgets for informers or did they also buy guns and ammo with it? How about protective vests? Was a crime committed or is it just a misunderstanding (yeah, right)? Where does the buck stop?
I get it that the details are being kept from the public, but then just say, " We are digging around to get more details" and stick to just what you know. All of this He Said-He Said gibberish is distracting from the public interest part of the story.
I get it that the details are being kept from the public, but then just say, " We are digging around to get more details" and stick to just what you know. All of this He Said-He Said gibberish is distracting from the public interest part of the story.
1
The Obama administration, not a "Smidgen of corruption".
No, more like a ton. Funny how this story appears NOW after Obama has left office.
No, more like a ton. Funny how this story appears NOW after Obama has left office.
1
Off the books, like the CIA drug trade that funded Iran Contra?
If you cannot trust government agencies, why not eliminate all secrecy?
If you cannot trust government agencies, why not eliminate all secrecy?
Ah! To be swindled by the government is to be...PROTECTED by the government! Conundrum heaped upon conundrum!
Paradoxical democratical freedom of the people by the people for the people...
execept you and me.
I think we have to come to terms with the fact that Democracy ain't perfection...but it's a helluvalot better than GOPism....
Paradoxical democratical freedom of the people by the people for the people...
execept you and me.
I think we have to come to terms with the fact that Democracy ain't perfection...but it's a helluvalot better than GOPism....
Gosh, Really? To all of you tobacco haters out there, how many people die of ALCOHOL. related issues each year? Shall we ban it, too? Where does it stop? You can not ban every thing YOU find repugnant.
1
Why does ATF even exist? There are so many Government cops i.e. FBI, CIA, city police, elected sheriff's, ATF, Homeland Security. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. Get rid of ATF at a minimum!
2
Yet, another reason to quit-smoking for people. Hurt these jerks where it hurts--the wallet.
1
This ATF storefront operation was allegedly used to finance other undercover operations. Whether it was simultaneously conducting its own investigations is not known, and whether the farmers' cooperative, US Tobacco, is suspected of crimes is not known. It is possible that a criminal farm cooperative brought this lawsuit, but we don't know. The facts, as told, are convoluted and mostly unknown. Anyone who understands what happened is more of an insider than me, and I am a federal prosecutor. As stated, the chief critic of the ATF is the NRA. And it appears that the Times is using the NRA criticism to suggest wrongdoing that has not been proven. I'd like to investigate the reporter and the editor who felt that this story was ready to go to press. If anybody understands who did what to whom. please post.
2
I figured you were a federal prosecutor two sentences into your diatribe. You need a well deserved vacation. The military has a procedure where Officers stationed abroad for years are required to attend several months of classes stateside to renew their sense of citizenship as Americans. It is probably a good idea to require long term federal prosecutors to take a turn as federal public defenders for perspective. Prosecutors have a duty to prosecute the evidence to beyond a reasonable doubt. Prosecutors also have a duty to protect the innocent if the evidence contains reasonable doubt before Grand Jury presentment. This country adheres to the RULE OF LAW. Committing a crime to catch a criminal is a crime by definition. Are you going to prosecute the A.T.F. agents who committed those crimes?
allowing or encouraging government agencies to self-fund always seems to end in abuse. The laws that allow police departments to confiscate cars and other possessions have been repeatedly abused with very little chance for those victimized to gain relief. The only reason the Tobacco growers are in a better position than most individuals victimized by these scams is the fact that so many people were defrauded at once instead of one at a time. If the government is going to confiscate or otherwise enrich itself at the expense of the citizens. the agency in charge of doing the confiscating should not be the one to profit by their actions.
4
If Trump and Sessions can clean up the Justice Department from the filth and corruption that ran amuck during the Obama administration, the current presidential administration could be considered a success. It would be nice to have a Justice Department that enforces the law instead of violates it. I know it is a novel concept, but only because of the past eight years.
4
Gee, a self-funded law enforcement agency with the ability to "legally" smuggle cigarettes? Let's have a look at those Panama Papers again and see if any of the commanding officers have any LLCs or offshore accounts.
7
That looks like a slush fund. Fancy cars for the operators and a shopping list for presents to go to unnamed persons.
3
To target these farmers because they grow tobacco yet support microbrews or support the legalization of marijuana is pure hypocrisy.
I for one support the legalization of all drugs, the deregulation of alcohol; from cutting the drinking age down to 16 and especially in allowing people to distill their own spirits at home, and the cutting of taxes on tobacco.
The ATF should be abolished.
I for one support the legalization of all drugs, the deregulation of alcohol; from cutting the drinking age down to 16 and especially in allowing people to distill their own spirits at home, and the cutting of taxes on tobacco.
The ATF should be abolished.
1
I agree the at should be abolished and its funny how another crooked deal was done under the Obama administration. ..I suspect Donald Trump will uncover more crooked deals that was made during the Obama ere...that man had no business being president and I'm positive the is more to come out about the DNA and others
We need to revisit the existence of many agencies and their missions. The spending by our government on stupid things like this, while making poor people go hungry due to tiny food stamp allotments, is immoral and outrageous. Of course the Republican plan is to cut spending on the poor further, while giving away huge tax gifts to millionaires and billionaires, so this problem will only get worse. It's a known fact that the rich are far more likely to be involved in corrupt enterprises. Our government is inching towards kleptocracy, with the stealer-in-chief sitting atop the pile. I have a feeling the people are going to start wiping out more incumbents in Washington than before, I sure hope so! The corruption is getting ridiculous, and the "so-called 'president'" is the worst of all: get his taxes!
3
"We need to revisit the existence of many agencies and their mission." This sounds like what are current president and the Republicans are proposing. Sounds like you are supportive of the current agenda.
1
And there is a failure to understand why few trust anyone in the federal government anymore? We know about the dubious "Fast-and-Furious" operation run by the ATF which allowed thousands of guns to flow over the border into Mexico, which resulted in an untold number of murders--including one U.S. Border Agent. How many other crooked schemes is the ATF running? Isn't it time to shut this agency down, fire everyone, and transfer its responsibilities to the FBI with totally new staff?
8
Honestly, do you really trust the FBI?
1
We have comments here that excoriate the growers of tobacco in the United States because tobacco kills and should be removed from the commerce of the United States. Are these the very same hypocrites who blame the American users of Mexican dope for the problems of crime in Mexico instead of the growers of Mexican dope? Very interesting!
4
What a surprise - we can't trust the ATF any more than we can trust the FBI, apparently. Time for some special prosecutors to look into the corruption apparent from this last election in both agencies.
6
That swamp just keeps getting bigger and murkier. What to do when those hired to be the moral industry watchdogs are the very dogs that have betrayed both the industry and the taxpayers. No worries, as we’ll undoubtedly shell out even more to unravel this mess. Still, we need to take a good look at ourselves in the mirror. We could all learn a good lesson from our mothers who told us “Don’t smoke, it’s bad for you.” We, the people, set the demand for the product. Zero demand eliminates both the farmers and the policers of an industry that kills. And just think what it might do to reduce our overall health care costs. Just for the record, I listened to my mother and stay away from this garbage…and yet I still have to pay for it.
1
All of this went on under Obama and his absentee presidency. The Justice Dept. was completely politicized and far more concerned with an agenda than with law enforcement. I mean, if you're working on those unisex bathrooms how much time do you have for anything important?
9
Remember in Catch-22 how "Farm Fresh Eggs" were moved around for reasons few could figure out (except a high ranking officer)?
2
"Mr. Carpenter and Mr. Small have also acknowledged in court documents receiving more than $1 million each, though it is not clear from public documents whether that was profit or reimbursement for expenses paid on behalf of the government." These two ATF agents better give a complete accounting of the $1 million they each received. That's the problem with undercover operations, including vice squad drug buys: it's too easy for the "cops" to become the criminals. As the Eagles sang in "Smuggler's Blues," "the lure of easy money has a very strong appeal." Extremely high taxes on cigarettes is another reason why smugglers exist, same with "illegal" drugs like marijuana: Big Pharma bribes Congress to keep marijuana and other drugs illegal to keep competition against their overpriced "legal" drugs down, creating a huge demand for lower-cost "street drugs" and an opportunity for gangs to profit from smuggling and selling "illegal" drugs.
6
"Records show that the Justice Department, which includes the A.T.F., investigated some aspects of the case but no charges were filed."
Straight out of then-AG Eric Holder's playbook: don't charge anyone at the banks, the ratings agencies, within his own corrupt agency, etc. One of Obama's greatest failures.
Straight out of then-AG Eric Holder's playbook: don't charge anyone at the banks, the ratings agencies, within his own corrupt agency, etc. One of Obama's greatest failures.
10
Individual states can have their own taxes. The federal government has no business to monitor the goods crossing the states. All the ATF agents should be placed on the international borders to protect the country from A,T,F crossing the border. Otherwise, shut down ATF altogether.
2
Hmmm, I could be wrong but if I recall a little thing called the commerce clause does give feds the right to oversee interstate activites...just saying...
"the federal government has no business monitor[ing] the goods crossing the states."
The Commerce Clause disagrees with you.
The Commerce Clause disagrees with you.
Time for Trump to get rid of this horrendous agency.
Why do Democrats just love these evil agencies, and their corrupt practices?
Why do Democrats just love these evil agencies, and their corrupt practices?
10
Your comment shows you nothing about the history of the ATF. Instead of lazy cheapshots why not do some reading and have a knowledgable background on the topic. Posts like yours are killing debate.
9
Kill off the ATF. Fire its agents, all of them, then place its responsibilities under the FBI with new management at the top. Those fired from the ATF can reapply for their old jobs only after being re-vetted, again. Any doubts about them and they don't get re-hired. This kind of corruption is killing confidence in the federal government and must be dealt with harshly.
6
That's a broad statement...that democrats love those agencies...could you please be more specific?
Read this one carefully. The million dollar payments were made to informants, not to ATF employees. More important, they my have been reimbursement of expenses paid by the informants -- a total wash. The Justice Department did not authorize the operation under its rules, which is not to say it was unauthorized. It is unclear whether authorization was required. And where did the $24 million in losses to the farmers come from? This was a tax investigation and allegations of huge losses to the farmers are just that -- allegations.
There is much more smoke than fire here, which is pretty much as expected for a cigarette investigation. :)
There is much more smoke than fire here, which is pretty much as expected for a cigarette investigation. :)
1
A couple thoughts about this case:
The related IRS case demanding back taxes for these (paper tobacco sales at inflated prices) is a gift. The additional discovery might just provide the impetus to resolve the initial lawsuits.
Next, I nominate Mr. Thompson for concerned executive of the year.
"The arrangement began to break down in late 2012, when Mr. Thompson joined U.S. Tobacco as the chief financial officer. He was curious why his warehouse was placing so many orders for a brand of cigarette that competes against U.S. Tobacco. He could not get a straight answer, the company said in court documents."
And because no straight answer was forthcoming, he pursued the matter. Doggedly.
This is exactly the sort of CFO we need in this country. Now maybe you can't mandate this level of duty and responsiveness legislatively via Dodd-Frank, but you certainly can hold it up as a shining example to emulate.
The related IRS case demanding back taxes for these (paper tobacco sales at inflated prices) is a gift. The additional discovery might just provide the impetus to resolve the initial lawsuits.
Next, I nominate Mr. Thompson for concerned executive of the year.
"The arrangement began to break down in late 2012, when Mr. Thompson joined U.S. Tobacco as the chief financial officer. He was curious why his warehouse was placing so many orders for a brand of cigarette that competes against U.S. Tobacco. He could not get a straight answer, the company said in court documents."
And because no straight answer was forthcoming, he pursued the matter. Doggedly.
This is exactly the sort of CFO we need in this country. Now maybe you can't mandate this level of duty and responsiveness legislatively via Dodd-Frank, but you certainly can hold it up as a shining example to emulate.
52
Trying to eliminate competitive product does not make Mr Thompson a crusader for law and justice.
Does it?
Does it?
2
"I nominate Mr. Thompson for concerned executive of the year."
How about no-conscience death-dealer of the year?
Anyone who profits from the production or sale of tobacco is living off of blood money. Period.
How about no-conscience death-dealer of the year?
Anyone who profits from the production or sale of tobacco is living off of blood money. Period.
1
Police are , in fact, the only true "professionals" in the business of crime and criminal artiface: They are paid for everything they do.
Naturally they become really experienced at the job and , it would be naive to assume they would not, (too many) turn to the use of such skills to make extra money-they think or say "criminals" are "living high" but in fact, the only high life living crooks are the ones with solid contacts and contracts with the police. The Zetas in Mexico behan as a US trained special anti narcotic force-now they control much of it.
Most cops are in the perfect position to ram criminal charges down the throats of innocent people. No judge or prosecutor, and few civilians suspect them. Most lawyers say they refuse to believe, especially the prosecutors whose lives and political futures rest on close-incestuously so-with police. I had to force my own lawyer to check ADA actions in the Bronx because he refused to even consider the possibility that they might make errors. When he , almost accidentally, found I was right, he was "shocked"-I was more shocked when, years later I found he wasn't even a lawyer, but the system allows almost anyone to practice in NYC criminal courts.
Anyone who is surprised need only recall alcohol prohibition which despite it's popularity with women, was the only amendment to the US Constitution ever repealed-because all the voters saw that every cop and judge, had become corrupted by illegal booze money.
Naturally they become really experienced at the job and , it would be naive to assume they would not, (too many) turn to the use of such skills to make extra money-they think or say "criminals" are "living high" but in fact, the only high life living crooks are the ones with solid contacts and contracts with the police. The Zetas in Mexico behan as a US trained special anti narcotic force-now they control much of it.
Most cops are in the perfect position to ram criminal charges down the throats of innocent people. No judge or prosecutor, and few civilians suspect them. Most lawyers say they refuse to believe, especially the prosecutors whose lives and political futures rest on close-incestuously so-with police. I had to force my own lawyer to check ADA actions in the Bronx because he refused to even consider the possibility that they might make errors. When he , almost accidentally, found I was right, he was "shocked"-I was more shocked when, years later I found he wasn't even a lawyer, but the system allows almost anyone to practice in NYC criminal courts.
Anyone who is surprised need only recall alcohol prohibition which despite it's popularity with women, was the only amendment to the US Constitution ever repealed-because all the voters saw that every cop and judge, had become corrupted by illegal booze money.
4
yes, the police are all criminals. people like Michael "the gentle giant" are all innocent.
1
I want to thank the New York Times for engaging in such serious and sensitive investigative journalism. Without the Time's resources and efforts, this story may have never come to light.
The ATF is a problem child and expecting the Justice Department to investigate one of its own is absurd. It’s like expecting Wall Street to regulate itself. There are only a couple of things our elected officials can do: defund shady ops and abolish errant agencies. It’s not just because the ATF has been managed by halfwits that smuggle cigarettes, funnel thousands of guns to Mexican drug cartels, kill civilians in Waco, allow corruption, widespread sexual harassment http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/news-releases/atf-whistleblowers-all... and more. It is because the agency itself outdated, and an unnecessary waste of tax dollars. Back in the good ol days only alcohol, tobacco and firearms’ munitions were taxed, so the Treasury Department created the A.T.F. in 1789 to collect taxes. Now the government taxes just about everything; and tax code enforcement is the realm of the IRS.
The ATF is a prime example of bloated bureaucracy that has no reason to exist, but continues to chug along because it is entrenched. That may also explain this story. When an agency has no real mission, it will create misguided operations to allay its lack of purpose.
The ATF is a problem child and expecting the Justice Department to investigate one of its own is absurd. It’s like expecting Wall Street to regulate itself. There are only a couple of things our elected officials can do: defund shady ops and abolish errant agencies. It’s not just because the ATF has been managed by halfwits that smuggle cigarettes, funnel thousands of guns to Mexican drug cartels, kill civilians in Waco, allow corruption, widespread sexual harassment http://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/news-releases/atf-whistleblowers-all... and more. It is because the agency itself outdated, and an unnecessary waste of tax dollars. Back in the good ol days only alcohol, tobacco and firearms’ munitions were taxed, so the Treasury Department created the A.T.F. in 1789 to collect taxes. Now the government taxes just about everything; and tax code enforcement is the realm of the IRS.
The ATF is a prime example of bloated bureaucracy that has no reason to exist, but continues to chug along because it is entrenched. That may also explain this story. When an agency has no real mission, it will create misguided operations to allay its lack of purpose.
18
Thoughtful ... insightful ... Law enforcement is a subculture. The core value is that the ends justify the means. The way to advancement is to make cases. Rogue agents will make cases based upon their own biased perceptions and paranoia --- the occupational hazard of all law officers. Institutional oversight is necessary because of the nature of the institutional beast.
Trump will sign an EO making this fraud legal. Welcome to Republican America... land of corruption and greed.
1
This happened under Obama.
10
yes, but like Hillary, T1 blames Trump.
3
Mark - "This happened under Obama."
Don't bother Mark facts mean nothing to the liberal progressive Democratic haters who write here.
Don't bother Mark facts mean nothing to the liberal progressive Democratic haters who write here.
3
ATF storefronts, as they are called, are intricate undercover operations mostly directed at illegal gun sales. It is not uncommon for such an operation to detect hundreds of illegal sales to dozens of buyers. The illegal gun market is so extensive that sale by sle arrests do not put a dent in the problem.
Cigarette tax revenues amount to $4 billion per year, 18% of which goes unpaid or underpaid. Investigations on a carton by carton basis are too little, too late. With almost a billion dollars of cigarette tax evasion, storefront operations are one of the few investigation tactics that can make a dent in the problem.
The ATF has ventured into the most complex area of law enforcement, and they well know that they have made mistakes. But without the ATF out there, illegal gun, alcohol, and tobacco sales are unchecked. The proper response here is not to attack the ATF. It is to support its efforts to better use the most sophisticated law enforcement techniques to investigate the most insidious crime out there. In favor of gun control? Support the ATF.
Cigarette tax revenues amount to $4 billion per year, 18% of which goes unpaid or underpaid. Investigations on a carton by carton basis are too little, too late. With almost a billion dollars of cigarette tax evasion, storefront operations are one of the few investigation tactics that can make a dent in the problem.
The ATF has ventured into the most complex area of law enforcement, and they well know that they have made mistakes. But without the ATF out there, illegal gun, alcohol, and tobacco sales are unchecked. The proper response here is not to attack the ATF. It is to support its efforts to better use the most sophisticated law enforcement techniques to investigate the most insidious crime out there. In favor of gun control? Support the ATF.
3
I agree that the ATF is vital, but we need individuals in the ATF that are not morally bankrupt, otherwise the entire system of checks and balances is worthless. It's like asking the bank robbers to ensure that the banks don't get robbed. Scandal after scandal, American taxpayers are left yet again feeling played.
5
Hmm..maybe with a bit more oversight, don't ya think?
Trump says, 'it never happened its just another fake story' These crooks are the ones that we should spend resources on to put in jail and stop this nonsense not immigrants who are usually upstanding honest citizens. Trump is ruining this country.
3
Long, LONG way around to find a way to implicate Trump in this.
4
Except it happened in 2011, under Obama and Holder-at the same time as Fast and Furious. The last administration tried to hide everything from the public, so we can only now start to access to the documents.
5
Really? When did Trump say this?
Smell like Iran Contract affair all over again. Don't worry, under Trump, the end always justify the mean.
3
Interesting that you pulled a reference to Trump out of an article that has absolutely nothing to do with him.
1
this program was started under Obama thus implying lax oversight of his administration. Trump can only be blamed so much.
2
Except it happened in 2011, under Obama and Holder-at the same time as Fast and Furious.
5
Perhaps the ATF is the arm of the government that Ronald Reagan was thinking of when he quipped "I'm from the government and I'm here to help."
12
It didn't exist then. St. Ronald had in mind Social Security.
There was ZERO TOLERANCE for ERIC GARNER who sold loose cigarettes so he could provide for his family and for himself, which he ended paying for with his L-I-F-E...!
Our new president and his administration want to take a ZERO TOLERANCE toward the more than 11 million PEOPLE like Eric Garner who are just trying to "stay alive" to provide for themselves and for their families...!
Keeping track of our elected officials and government employees' misdeeds should be written on a scroll and hung around their necks for everyone to see and legal action taken on the behalf of democracy...!
Our new president and his administration want to take a ZERO TOLERANCE toward the more than 11 million PEOPLE like Eric Garner who are just trying to "stay alive" to provide for themselves and for their families...!
Keeping track of our elected officials and government employees' misdeeds should be written on a scroll and hung around their necks for everyone to see and legal action taken on the behalf of democracy...!
39
Don't blame our current president for the misdeeds of the ATF from years ago. You have the cause & effect exactly backwards. It is the unlawful overreach of government agencies that spurs an electorate to applaud the candidate who promises to "drain the swamp" or "get rid of the EPA."
9
These people who are " just staying alive " ...is sad.
The result of the terrible economy during the Obama years where the fat cats on
Wall Street made billions and the poor guy on the street had no job.
Hmmm,,sounds familiar right?
Somebody is the most powerful person on the globe because he saw that while his opponent was , under the cover of tolerance, going to keep the same course.
The result of the terrible economy during the Obama years where the fat cats on
Wall Street made billions and the poor guy on the street had no job.
Hmmm,,sounds familiar right?
Somebody is the most powerful person on the globe because he saw that while his opponent was , under the cover of tolerance, going to keep the same course.
5
I couldn't have said it more forcefully and rightly.
According to "our" various governments, and judging by results, Eric Garner deserved to die, rogue ATF agents (if that isn't a solecism; the ATF seems to be rogue in general) deserve a comfortable retirement, and honest farmers who don't run a billion-dollar business deserve to lose a little more money than they already have, while having their own business operations kept secret from them.
When will the courts finally recognize that the principal purpose of "official secrets" and "state secrets" is to keep misdeeds from the citizens? (Reminder: The principal of "state secrets", nonexistent in the Constitution and prior legislation, was created by the courts in 1947 in what turned out (decades later) to be nothing other than a cover-up of official crime. See Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_secrets_privilege
According to "our" various governments, and judging by results, Eric Garner deserved to die, rogue ATF agents (if that isn't a solecism; the ATF seems to be rogue in general) deserve a comfortable retirement, and honest farmers who don't run a billion-dollar business deserve to lose a little more money than they already have, while having their own business operations kept secret from them.
When will the courts finally recognize that the principal purpose of "official secrets" and "state secrets" is to keep misdeeds from the citizens? (Reminder: The principal of "state secrets", nonexistent in the Constitution and prior legislation, was created by the courts in 1947 in what turned out (decades later) to be nothing other than a cover-up of official crime. See Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_secrets_privilege
1
How is this any different from Contra-gate?Shadowy government buying and selling drugs to fund covert operations that congress would deny money for. Why are we so surprised? Thank god we have free press like the NYT, otherwise this would happen even more.
9
Well, Iran-Contra was an illegal operation run from inside the White House, and for which Reagan rightly should have been impeached and removed from office.
5
The real irony to this whole mess is that the ATF is supposed to be taking dangerous and illegal drugs/firearms off of American streets. They seem to want to accomplish this by selling cancer inducing cigarettes to anyone with the cash.
Somehow, I do not feel one iota "safer".
Somehow, I do not feel one iota "safer".
24
I think all of them are hardly "good people" as the farmers and others are described herein. Rather, they grow and sell poison that kills millions and costs untold sums of money in health care that all of us who don't smoke pay. From top to bottom, the entire cycle is promoting death and disease and the taxes collected off the tobacco industry are pure blood money.
35
Exactly. Tobacco a once ceremonial plant amongst various Native american cultures, snow serves no other purpose than to addict people and kill them, slowly through the disintegration of their lungs. Why on earth do these farmers get any consideration at all these days?
4
The Supreme Court has previously ruled that if a law otherwise deemed illegal generates sufficient revenue then it will be permitted....so if tobacco kills but generates lots of $$$$....its ok.....as we now have legal marijuana. that upsets the government since taxing is difficult....is cocaine a bridge too far???? profits ...taxes....hmm Welcome to the USA. ....$$$$$$$
Well,well,well,corruption in government! I'm stunned.
Given that number45 wants to destroy all existing regulations,on everything we should soon be able to join the most ignorant country list as #1.ms Divos,will destroy education 45 will destroy the economy and anything else he can lay his disgusting ignorant hands on!!!!
Given that number45 wants to destroy all existing regulations,on everything we should soon be able to join the most ignorant country list as #1.ms Divos,will destroy education 45 will destroy the economy and anything else he can lay his disgusting ignorant hands on!!!!
19
Nancy, What possesses you to connect what happened during the Obama administration with that of #45 other than your liberal bias toward the present president? That operation was not authorized under Justice Department rules and brings new scrutiny to the ATF which was involved in the botched gun-tracking operation known as Fast and Furious which also occurred under E Holder of the Obama administration. Regulations and mandates, especially those of the EPA and Obamacare have drained Trillions from the economy partially resulting in growth during Obama's tenure less than 2%. Instead of pressing an emotional opinion, learn first and present some factual information.
10
Well which part of' Conflict in Interests' in government don't you understand Mwgrzlac?
- Is it the part about the Oklahoma Oilman recently appointed by the Trump Administration to head the EPA, whose greatest qualification seems to be the upwards of 13 law suits he filed against the EPA in the past simply in order to try and shield himself and his Petro-partners against clean air/clean water regulations?
-Is it the Wall Street Financeer Trump appointed to oversee the Banking and and Security industries, knowing full well that his choice has a vested interest in promoting a financial institutions (Goldman Sachs) that, in fact, received one the harshest penalties for financial skull duggery, following the collapse of the housing market?
- Or was it the appointment by Trump of one of the best known advocates for privatizing K-12 public education to be Secretary of Education ( who herself happens to be a principle owner of a nationwide on-line private education company)?
- It sounds to me that perhaps you mistake an instance of poor oversight by superiors of a rogue law enforcement operation for, a well thought out and long planned for way to undermine the public's best interest for the sake of privateers.
- Is it the part about the Oklahoma Oilman recently appointed by the Trump Administration to head the EPA, whose greatest qualification seems to be the upwards of 13 law suits he filed against the EPA in the past simply in order to try and shield himself and his Petro-partners against clean air/clean water regulations?
-Is it the Wall Street Financeer Trump appointed to oversee the Banking and and Security industries, knowing full well that his choice has a vested interest in promoting a financial institutions (Goldman Sachs) that, in fact, received one the harshest penalties for financial skull duggery, following the collapse of the housing market?
- Or was it the appointment by Trump of one of the best known advocates for privatizing K-12 public education to be Secretary of Education ( who herself happens to be a principle owner of a nationwide on-line private education company)?
- It sounds to me that perhaps you mistake an instance of poor oversight by superiors of a rogue law enforcement operation for, a well thought out and long planned for way to undermine the public's best interest for the sake of privateers.
1
What's most interesting is how some of you readers have found SOME way to make this unrelated story about...TRUMP!!!
5
Who watches the watchers?
25
You and me, through the people we elect. We've, obviously, done a bad job.
My son is a retired copper. During his 29 years on the job, he had occasion to work closely with members of the ATF. In each instance, he said their attitude, cooperation, and knowledge were top shelf and their assistance was truly invaluable. Not sure what went wrong with this crop of ATF officers, but usually when there is little, if any oversight, and the required documentation (regardless of how much of a pain and burdensome it is) is tossed aside, problems and embarrassment will be sure to bloom and backfire in the end.
27
My wife was a cop for 20 years. Again, a few bad apples spoil the whole barrel!
6
There is an ongoing problem that is becoming exacerbated in the age of dying industries ; states rights.
Pick any industry or market and you quickly realize that states are competing with one another in a destructive race to the bottom. THAT is the whole reason in the first place why there are cooperatives. The individual businessmen ( not bumpkin farmers ) cannot compete against one another.
Tobacco, guns, health care. Pick anything.
States race to the bottom to tax as little as possible ( or nothing at all ) coupled with the least regulation ( or nothing at all ) and try to constantly poach businesses and whole industries. Governors are hawking the above all the time. ( especially republicans )
Then the Federal government ( you the taxpayer ) is left to pick up the slack\tab in the form of ever increasing transfer payments.
Welfare for all of the above that only lets flourish graft and black markets.
Pick any industry or market and you quickly realize that states are competing with one another in a destructive race to the bottom. THAT is the whole reason in the first place why there are cooperatives. The individual businessmen ( not bumpkin farmers ) cannot compete against one another.
Tobacco, guns, health care. Pick anything.
States race to the bottom to tax as little as possible ( or nothing at all ) coupled with the least regulation ( or nothing at all ) and try to constantly poach businesses and whole industries. Governors are hawking the above all the time. ( especially republicans )
Then the Federal government ( you the taxpayer ) is left to pick up the slack\tab in the form of ever increasing transfer payments.
Welfare for all of the above that only lets flourish graft and black markets.
29
Self-funding leads to crime by law agencies. It does at the federal level; it does at the local level. It always has and it always will. Nobody can resist the lure of easy, untraceable money. Nobody. It needs to be banned. (but I fear it will not)
84
I suspect the country is having a similar challenge with the Police responsible for narcitics interdiction - why bother making any effort to confiscate ($ worthless to them) narcotics, when instead they can wait for the stuff to be sold, converted to valuable $ cash, that they can then confiscate & keep? The explosion of availability of cheap heroin in the US is probably linked to these defective asset forfeiture laws. The narco cops should not be allowed to keep any $ they confiscate from the sale of narcotics - instead, their reward should come from the sale of their (previously $ worthless) confiscated narcotics to a new US Treasury department that sets a fair $ price and effectively pays all US narco departments to get the stuff off the streets. In today's messed up equation, the narco authorities have become the country's "single seller" and all junk has effectively become very close to 100% "legalized". Intelligent members of our judiciary have to recognize this ugly reality... but so far no one's saying anything about it.
8
Decreasing as the sale of tobacco decreases.
Money collected by this tax is fenced. The money can only be used for the purposes spelled out in the proposition. California's Board of Equalization gets a fixed amount for policing tobacco tax collection. Enough money, in my opinion to have ten enforcers in each of the 58 counties. Even so, the Executive is trying to renege (my opinion) on funding BOE. Even so, using a single agency, BOE, to collect and enforce creates temptations. The Legislative Analysts Office opens the door on cheating by using the term "tax avoidance" instead of "tax evasion".
The health community, doctors, epidemiologist, are complicit, in my opinion, by not disclosing the health cost of a pack of cigarettes.
Money collected by this tax is fenced. The money can only be used for the purposes spelled out in the proposition. California's Board of Equalization gets a fixed amount for policing tobacco tax collection. Enough money, in my opinion to have ten enforcers in each of the 58 counties. Even so, the Executive is trying to renege (my opinion) on funding BOE. Even so, using a single agency, BOE, to collect and enforce creates temptations. The Legislative Analysts Office opens the door on cheating by using the term "tax avoidance" instead of "tax evasion".
The health community, doctors, epidemiologist, are complicit, in my opinion, by not disclosing the health cost of a pack of cigarettes.
The ATF is a joke, you can buy all of this anywhere in the US. Try buying a Cuban cigar.
4
It's impossible to tell from this reading what exactly the ATF bureau was doing.
The farmers grow the tobacco then act together to manufacture and sell finished cigarettes and other products (US Tobacco). A distributor (Big South) ships the finished products to retailers in the different states (tax added). The process is linear: farmers => coop => manufacturer => distributor => retail sales => hospital => graveyard. Apparently US Tobacco's biggest customers were in China (not subject to taxes).
Where does the ATF fit in and what is the farmers' complaint? It's impossible t say. The ATF was a silent partner of the distributor: some cigarettes were (apparently) skimmed off by the ATF and used as lures to uncover tax cheats, presumably retailers up and down the East Coast. Other cigarettes were held back by the company owners so they could be resold 'off the books'. Nobody kept good records so the coop was cheated ... then again, maybe not.
What is clear is the US Tobacco would not have had a problem had it continued to sell to Big South and other distributors instead of buying the company and its baggage. The problem is one of due diligence. The coop was done in by its own ambition (Greed).
The coop is in the same position as someone who has bought to flip an expensive condo and finds out the building leans two feet to the left and it has bedbugs.
It is possible Big South was a tobacco wholesaler as well as a distributor of finished cigarettes but this isn't clear.
The farmers grow the tobacco then act together to manufacture and sell finished cigarettes and other products (US Tobacco). A distributor (Big South) ships the finished products to retailers in the different states (tax added). The process is linear: farmers => coop => manufacturer => distributor => retail sales => hospital => graveyard. Apparently US Tobacco's biggest customers were in China (not subject to taxes).
Where does the ATF fit in and what is the farmers' complaint? It's impossible t say. The ATF was a silent partner of the distributor: some cigarettes were (apparently) skimmed off by the ATF and used as lures to uncover tax cheats, presumably retailers up and down the East Coast. Other cigarettes were held back by the company owners so they could be resold 'off the books'. Nobody kept good records so the coop was cheated ... then again, maybe not.
What is clear is the US Tobacco would not have had a problem had it continued to sell to Big South and other distributors instead of buying the company and its baggage. The problem is one of due diligence. The coop was done in by its own ambition (Greed).
The coop is in the same position as someone who has bought to flip an expensive condo and finds out the building leans two feet to the left and it has bedbugs.
It is possible Big South was a tobacco wholesaler as well as a distributor of finished cigarettes but this isn't clear.
8
Seems the ATF was using Big South to skim off millions of dollars to finance - or so the ATF claims - their undercover operations. So essentially they took money from the farmers. And they also didn't pay taxes on the tobacco they profited from. In other words, the ATF were as bad as the smugglers they were supposed to be hunting down. Kind of like what they did when they sold guns to Mexican gun dealers, who resold them to gangsters. These were the same guys they were supposed to be tracking, but didn't.
9
Is this what happens when you don't read enough? Disjointed, meandering, irrelevant analysis? More, please.
1
Poorly written article (IMHO) What ever happened to "Who, What, When, Where, How and Why?"
Tell me the story in a nutshell and then I'll decide if I want to read more (which should follow in a concentric manner, which, if I want more, I'll read the next ring. )
This article came off as analogous to a click bait, "50 where are they nows? You won't believe #37!"
Tell me the story in a nutshell and then I'll decide if I want to read more (which should follow in a concentric manner, which, if I want more, I'll read the next ring. )
This article came off as analogous to a click bait, "50 where are they nows? You won't believe #37!"
3
Let's hear it for a free press.
"After The New York Times began asking about the operation last summer, the Justice Department disclosed it to the department’s inspector general’s office, which is investigating. The inspector general “expressed serious concerns,” court records show."
"After The New York Times began asking about the operation last summer, the Justice Department disclosed it to the department’s inspector general’s office, which is investigating. The inspector general “expressed serious concerns,” court records show."
25
Scanning comments here, I see outrage over government corruption but as little analysis of it and its real implications as appears in the article.
The ATF concluded that it had needs for funding that weren't being met by congressional appropriations; so they concocted a scheme that, in the end, preyed upon the public to generate funding.
They were more focused in their predation than police forces across America that install traffic cams (sometimes doctored) to catch motorists in small infractions that are leveraged into large fines, and states that have immensely increased fees and fines of all sorts to fund services whose costs have grown beyond the ability to fund them. In NJ, which faces serious debt and general funding problems (as do many states), most local vehicular fines now carry state matching-fines. A minor local vehicular violation that is levied a modest local fine can turn into a $300 or $400 fine once the state is done. Also in NJ, if a resident is stopped and fined for a moving traffic violation in another state with which NJ shares data (such as NY and CT), the motorist not only must pay that state’s fine but NJ requires that an equal fine be paid to it.
Do people think this is going to get better? WHY is DOJ defending this tobacco matter so aggressively? It’s not going to get better but much worse, and government understands that they have no real answer to the problem.
Government is doing too MUCH – increasingly beyond our rational capacity to fund it.
The ATF concluded that it had needs for funding that weren't being met by congressional appropriations; so they concocted a scheme that, in the end, preyed upon the public to generate funding.
They were more focused in their predation than police forces across America that install traffic cams (sometimes doctored) to catch motorists in small infractions that are leveraged into large fines, and states that have immensely increased fees and fines of all sorts to fund services whose costs have grown beyond the ability to fund them. In NJ, which faces serious debt and general funding problems (as do many states), most local vehicular fines now carry state matching-fines. A minor local vehicular violation that is levied a modest local fine can turn into a $300 or $400 fine once the state is done. Also in NJ, if a resident is stopped and fined for a moving traffic violation in another state with which NJ shares data (such as NY and CT), the motorist not only must pay that state’s fine but NJ requires that an equal fine be paid to it.
Do people think this is going to get better? WHY is DOJ defending this tobacco matter so aggressively? It’s not going to get better but much worse, and government understands that they have no real answer to the problem.
Government is doing too MUCH – increasingly beyond our rational capacity to fund it.
12
Let me ask you this.... Have you ever encountered someone selling "illegal " cigarettes? I have, and I always wondered, how is it so readily available? At such a low price? They are NOT driving to the reservations... And let's be honest, even with or without stop and frisk, the chances of the people selling the cigarettes and smugglers, is highly unlikely to be as successful. So the distributors can most likely be, the manufacturer, the distributor, the government, or the mob.... Now, if they do investigate, they may find that many of our "urban crisis" are indeed in fact, being created by Law enforcement, to flood them with illegal cigarettes, illegal guns, and possibly illegal booze.... So, on the surface, yes why? But looking deeper, if this is as prevalent as Fast and Furious, Stateside, we have bigger issues...
13
You are exactly right, Richard. Our "lovely" state of NJ's creative practice of hitting us twice on any traffic infraction should be against the law. I don't care what name you give to these "fees", it's double jeopardy. We are being levied two penalties for the same offence. It looks like the ATF was getting creative with their funding, as well. Time will tell.
9
Jay:
You're responding to a guy who used to buy cartons of unfiltered Camel cigarettes from the back of a truck on Southern Blvd. in the South Bronx for $5 per carton ... in 1977. From the mob. You might be surprised at what I've encountered in my life (so far).
It's the bigger issues presented unanalyzed by this story of the ATF that I AM commenting on.
You're responding to a guy who used to buy cartons of unfiltered Camel cigarettes from the back of a truck on Southern Blvd. in the South Bronx for $5 per carton ... in 1977. From the mob. You might be surprised at what I've encountered in my life (so far).
It's the bigger issues presented unanalyzed by this story of the ATF that I AM commenting on.
2
I remember a time when I was a child, individuals could routinely purchase "a couple of cigarettes" at their neighborhood markets. Many of the adults regularly handed the kids a couple nickels to do so.
4
Selling "loosies" has continued to modern times, especially as the price of a pack has gone up and up. In fact, Eric Garner was known to have sold them on occasion on Staten Island in New York City. It was what brought him to the attention of local police and their attempt to arrest him on another charge led to his death at their hands in the summer of 2014.
10
List of people I don't feel sorry for:
ATF (check)
Tobacco industry (check)
ATF (check)
Tobacco industry (check)
11
In America, equal under the law is still the theory. Does the "law and order" President think that the laws should be applied to law enforcement? or to himself? Or is Trump's Law and Order only for the little people.
10
Trump's friend the late Leona Helmsley famously observed: "Only the little people pay taxes." Since Trump has likely not paid federal income taxes in decades due to loopholes, shelters, dodges, deductions, etc. he should stay strictly out of any and all tax issues. Either for new ones, repealing old ones, raising or lowering current taxes, etc. The Donald is a shameless hypocrite to opine and support changes on the U.S. Tax code in any way. Pretty sure Trump agrees that criminal laws only apply to the little people as well---unless he or his family are victimized of course, then it applies to any perpetrator, rich or poor.
7
Since this happened under Obama it seems like the law did not apply to his department of justice or the ATF.
Holder was head of justice which oversees atf. Another Obama administration corruption scandal in line with the many like fast and furious gun running.
13
I've written this elsewhere. In the beginning of this country, in the early days leading up to the conditions (and directly contributing to the conditions leading the people to rebel) judges were engaged in passing judgments in protecting the State no matter how corrupt; passing judgments against the interests of the common weal of the People, not only undermining the sanctity that is supposed to surround the idea of justice but preventing the execution of reforms--.
Judges like this were chased, harassed, burnt-in-effigy or otherwise unseated for being inadequate to the test of meting out justice (where the State--or its protected interests are involved).
I believe judges in this country, in way too many cases--no pun intended--are really the worst types of individuals to be in the position of judging anything--these individuals routinely issue rulings *against* the people, *against* evidence which would exonerate (or justify the finding of guilt) by sealing it, allowing crucial elements to be redacted.
It is positively disgusting. This is what is meant by stacked courts--one kind of justice for the nobility and another wholly different kind of (in)justice for the people, thanks to judges with oatmeal for brains, rubber for spines, or worse. The judge in this case and in all cases where they are seen to engage in imbalance and secrecy ought to be struck. The State is out of control in every branch and on every level when the judiciary is dead.
Judges like this were chased, harassed, burnt-in-effigy or otherwise unseated for being inadequate to the test of meting out justice (where the State--or its protected interests are involved).
I believe judges in this country, in way too many cases--no pun intended--are really the worst types of individuals to be in the position of judging anything--these individuals routinely issue rulings *against* the people, *against* evidence which would exonerate (or justify the finding of guilt) by sealing it, allowing crucial elements to be redacted.
It is positively disgusting. This is what is meant by stacked courts--one kind of justice for the nobility and another wholly different kind of (in)justice for the people, thanks to judges with oatmeal for brains, rubber for spines, or worse. The judge in this case and in all cases where they are seen to engage in imbalance and secrecy ought to be struck. The State is out of control in every branch and on every level when the judiciary is dead.
3
Shut down the ATF and DEA. Both corrupt agencies that funnel billions of taxpayer dollars into their pockets while pretending to engage in a "war" on drugs, tobacco and firearms.
They've long run slush funds using money and property they seize. That they are also setting up slush funds by engaging in the same practices they are suppose to be investigating is just more reason to shut them down.
It isn't the federal government's business to tax tobacco, the states do a fine job of it. Let the states worry about untaxed tobacco being sold in their states. I doubt the feds collect even a fraction of the money the ATF costs in taxes much less taxes that aren't paid.
They've long run slush funds using money and property they seize. That they are also setting up slush funds by engaging in the same practices they are suppose to be investigating is just more reason to shut them down.
It isn't the federal government's business to tax tobacco, the states do a fine job of it. Let the states worry about untaxed tobacco being sold in their states. I doubt the feds collect even a fraction of the money the ATF costs in taxes much less taxes that aren't paid.
21
Great point Ralph. States tax cigarettes and its the states that keep the proceeds. Why is the federal government enforcing state laws and taxes?
Under the Commerce Clause the federal government is to encouraging interstate commerce and remove trade barriers between the states in order to create a true free trade union where people and property can move freely. In that regard, shouldn't the federal government be preventing states from barring out of state products? All these problems are caused by the federal government, and the public in general, forgetting its constitutional purpose for existing.
Under the Commerce Clause the federal government is to encouraging interstate commerce and remove trade barriers between the states in order to create a true free trade union where people and property can move freely. In that regard, shouldn't the federal government be preventing states from barring out of state products? All these problems are caused by the federal government, and the public in general, forgetting its constitutional purpose for existing.
2
Putting all the variables aside, this is a tactic as old as government. Slide money into a slush fund to be able to conduct operations without the onus of the paperwork that makes the process trackable. It occurs at the Federal, State, and Local levels. As on short cut leads to another turning into bad decisions and rationalization, it becomes discovered and becomes the scandal-gate of the day. Once all the ooh and ahing have been drained it's tossed aside without the root cause being addressed.
Government workers can easily fall into a mindset of isolation and corrupted views of what is in the public's interest. Of course on the other hand the public only seems interested when there are bones to pick on. The only way to end this is to create a culture of; transparency in action, celebrating those who stand tall and not only do the right thing, but stop those who are doing the wrong thing (including the whistle blowers) , a belief in only take actions that improve the condition and stature of our country, a public who take an interest in truly understanding what is being done every day in their name, and a reasoned, open, respectful dialog between all people.
Government workers can easily fall into a mindset of isolation and corrupted views of what is in the public's interest. Of course on the other hand the public only seems interested when there are bones to pick on. The only way to end this is to create a culture of; transparency in action, celebrating those who stand tall and not only do the right thing, but stop those who are doing the wrong thing (including the whistle blowers) , a belief in only take actions that improve the condition and stature of our country, a public who take an interest in truly understanding what is being done every day in their name, and a reasoned, open, respectful dialog between all people.
7
ATF has been a monumental embarrassment. It's long past time to close the agency and turn over the gun and bomb jurisdiction to the FBI and the alcohol and tobacco enforcement to the agriculture department or the IRS. Why do we have an agency like ATF deciding what has to be on a bottle of booze to get an approved name? Tax enforcement belomgs to the IRS anyway. There are too many federal cop shops. One less won't matter to anyone.
95
I was a federal prosecutor. If the FBI were to handle gun trafficking, their agents would have time for little else. As for the Dept. of Agriculture, it does no criminal investigation. The IRS handles income taxes and payroll taxes under Title 26. Agents know nothing about sin taxes. To turn the specialized work of the ATF over to agents who haven't a clue is a big mistake. Investigating gun running is not a game for amateurs.
3
As someone who grew up in a rural community where tobacco put food on the table for many families and kept small family farms viable this story saddens me. As do the reader comments slandering those farmers. Every tobacco farmer I knew was a tobacco user, and most end up dying as a result. Yes, tobacco use is a problem, and yes, those tobacco growers are producing a product that sickens and kills scores of people. But they are doing so because there is a market for it, and there are few other economically viable options.
To the NYT readers who resent the tobacco farmers, vote with your wallet. Become a consumer who fosters an economy that gives farmers other options.
To the NYT readers who resent the tobacco farmers, vote with your wallet. Become a consumer who fosters an economy that gives farmers other options.
48
Kills and sickens scores of people? More like 25 thousand score.
2
Yes drug use is a problem, and yes those drug growers are producing a product that sickens and kills scores of people. But they are doing so because there is a market for it, and there are few other economically viable options. That is your moral argument?
Replace "tobacco' with "poppies" or "cocoa" and you can justify anything that is marketable.
"The operation gave agents an off-the-books way to finance undercover investigations and pay informants without the usual cumbersome paperwork and close oversight"
My father smoked like a chimney for 60+ years but it was my mother who died from lung cancer (and she never smoked.) Needless to say, I am not a fan of cigarettes. However, I am extremely sympathetic for these farmers. They're making a livelihood (and in many cases, a business that was in their family for generations) and NOT breaking the law. And yet, here comes the Feds, lying, stealing, entrapping these poor folks as well as ripping off the Government.
Geez, with no accountability nor oversight, it is totally shocking that the ATF's plan went completely awry in the end.
20
The U.S. Government runs all sorts of scams under the aegis of raising money for their bogus operations. Time put their felonious butts in jail like the rest of us when we commit a crime
12
Why aren't there calls for investigating the President in power at the time? How much did he know? If he didn't know, why not? Mr. Obama's administration was rife with corruption like this!
If this were Trump, people would be all over this!
If this were Trump, people would be all over this!
6
Julie, you are a hater in search of a target. Obama's administration was the most scandal-free administration of this modern era. Look it up. Meanwhile, as a typically uninformed apologist for the Deplorables, look up ATRF and Bush Administration if you want to see where the seeds of corruption flourished in the ATF. Geeze Louise.
10
Stay classy, ATF.
4
It reminds me of Iran-Contra, which Oliver North considered a "neat idea." It would not surprise if somewhere in ATF, someone must have similarly marveled at their creativity.
11
They hurt the health of many and they kill many with their tobacco.
3
Do we really need the ATF?
5
Sounds like ATF committed crimes and is being investigated;good. These growers and co-ops knowingly produce an additive substance that commits a "crime" against people's health, yet they don't answer for it. Just because the business has been in your family for generation doesn't make what it does right. I'm betting these tobacco plantation, co-op and manufacturing execs tell their own kids not to smoke the carcinogenic substances they produce!
4
Shades of Iran-Contra scandal!
5
Clearly, ATF needs to be absorbed into the Department of Education.
2
Are they going to call this Nicotine Contra?
6
The tobacco industry is so harmful, as several other commenters noted, yet the government is unwilling to legislate it out of existence. Why? Because taxes from tobacco sales fund S-CHIP, the largest child health insurance program in the U.S. championed by Hillary Clinton. The government also allowed one of its favored constituencies - trial lawyers - to earn BILLIONS from settlements with the tobacco industry. A significant portion of those settlements are funneled back to legislators as campaign contributions. Follow the money.
2
It cannot be legislated out of existence, it must be enforced out of existence. Perhaps once illegal drug use and illegal immigration are under control, the government can turn its attention to making tobacco use by adults illegal.
ATF, boarder patrol, all self financing and a world unto themselves. Foxes in the hen house. For shame.
14
How much you wanna bet this debacle of corruption in our government policing agencies can be traced directly to the GOP penchant for privatization?
Turns out that the folks who work in private industry are not as altruistic as those generally called to Civil Service.
Turns out that the folks who work in private industry are not as altruistic as those generally called to Civil Service.
17
So your narrative is that we should trust politicians or nice looking liberal politicians who are well spoken and if possible light skinned blacks because they are more honest and well intentioned ("by any means necessary")? Lol. Do you not see the arrogance in your position.
What nonsense! Do you not recall which party had control of the U.S. Presidency and therefore also had ultimate control of all the federal agencies (except for Congress and the Judiciary) in 2011 and 2012 (when the scandal started)? Of course, it was President Obama and the Democratic Party holding this power for 8 full years, from Jan 20, 2009 to Jan 20, 2017.
You also seem to be unaware that the highest echelon of the Federal bureaucracy (the 5,000 or so persons at the very top) are NOT Civil Service employees at all, they are Presidential appointees, starting at the Cabinet level and hand-picked by the Administration in power. The list of these ~5,000 positions has long been known as "the Plum Book" (as in "Plum Jobs") and it's they who set policy and manage the Civil Service rank 'n file.
You also seem to be unaware that the highest echelon of the Federal bureaucracy (the 5,000 or so persons at the very top) are NOT Civil Service employees at all, they are Presidential appointees, starting at the Cabinet level and hand-picked by the Administration in power. The list of these ~5,000 positions has long been known as "the Plum Book" (as in "Plum Jobs") and it's they who set policy and manage the Civil Service rank 'n file.
2
Chgo45, I'm not sure of your logic there. I'm not even sure what you are talking about.
L. T. J, Read the article. These men were doing this off the books. So no president is personally responsible for them in the way you imply.
As for the appointees again no relationship since these men were doing this off the books.
These men felt free to do what they did because of the culture that reagan created when he destroyed our government got rid of all the best people then lowered all standards for hiring and filled the joint up with grateful folks unqualified for the job who would willingly do as they were told not knowing any better.
L. T. J, Read the article. These men were doing this off the books. So no president is personally responsible for them in the way you imply.
As for the appointees again no relationship since these men were doing this off the books.
These men felt free to do what they did because of the culture that reagan created when he destroyed our government got rid of all the best people then lowered all standards for hiring and filled the joint up with grateful folks unqualified for the job who would willingly do as they were told not knowing any better.
2
I am not offering a personal moral judgment, but how is a tobacco farmer different from a coca or marijuana farmer?
9
Drugs are bad. Next question please.
Full disclosure. I wrote the first book on the topic of combining alcohol and fully decarbed cannabis in craft cocktails.
Full disclosure. I wrote the first book on the topic of combining alcohol and fully decarbed cannabis in craft cocktails.
What a great comment! "...how is somebody engaged in "what I think" is immoral conduct any different from somebody else engaged in what society has legislated to be punishable immoral behavior?" A beautiful double-twist rhetorical flourish!!
3
A tobacco farmer is no different that a coca or marijuana farmer. They all grow a crop that consumers want to buy.
The biggest difference is that for some reason our society decided to make coca and marijuana illegal. The other big difference is that tobacco is much more addictive than marijuana and cocaine. And tobacco use is more hazardous to your health than marijuana or cocaine.
As far as I am concerned they should make all drugs legal, since drug prohibition has not curtailed the use of drugs in any way and has only created far greater problems than it solves.
The biggest difference is that for some reason our society decided to make coca and marijuana illegal. The other big difference is that tobacco is much more addictive than marijuana and cocaine. And tobacco use is more hazardous to your health than marijuana or cocaine.
As far as I am concerned they should make all drugs legal, since drug prohibition has not curtailed the use of drugs in any way and has only created far greater problems than it solves.
4
This sounds like a complete miscarriage of justice, but what's also a disaster is this article's confusing description of the scam:
[See paragraph starting "It worked like this”]
So an export company, call them Acme Export, buys cigarettes for export, but instead of shipping them Big South sends them cheap snack food and keeps the cigs.
Ok that's one scam because Big South can resell the cigs they supposedly shipped a second time and keep the profit. But who’s paying for Acme's purchase? Why doesn't Acme care that they're not getting the product they paid for? Is Acme funded out of some other ATF budget item to hide the purchases? It's not explained!
Then, Carpenter and Small (who ran Big South) create a separate company, call it C&S. C&S buys tobacco from US Tobacco Coop at one price (say $15) and resells it to Big South for a higher price (say $17), and keeps the difference. Ok that is straight middleman fraud, a second scam. But do Carpenter and Small keep the money for their luxury sedans or do they give it to the ATF?
What does the first scam have to do with the second? Why does the article explain simple cigarette smuggling (low tax state to high tax state) when neither of these scams seems to have anything to do with taxes? Why are export taxes even mentioned?
It seems like the reporter and editor don't fully understand the scam, just that there is some type of corruption here.
[See paragraph starting "It worked like this”]
So an export company, call them Acme Export, buys cigarettes for export, but instead of shipping them Big South sends them cheap snack food and keeps the cigs.
Ok that's one scam because Big South can resell the cigs they supposedly shipped a second time and keep the profit. But who’s paying for Acme's purchase? Why doesn't Acme care that they're not getting the product they paid for? Is Acme funded out of some other ATF budget item to hide the purchases? It's not explained!
Then, Carpenter and Small (who ran Big South) create a separate company, call it C&S. C&S buys tobacco from US Tobacco Coop at one price (say $15) and resells it to Big South for a higher price (say $17), and keeps the difference. Ok that is straight middleman fraud, a second scam. But do Carpenter and Small keep the money for their luxury sedans or do they give it to the ATF?
What does the first scam have to do with the second? Why does the article explain simple cigarette smuggling (low tax state to high tax state) when neither of these scams seems to have anything to do with taxes? Why are export taxes even mentioned?
It seems like the reporter and editor don't fully understand the scam, just that there is some type of corruption here.
55
End, you are correct. The media is under financial pressure to print "a story" even when they have no idea what the facts are. Just make sure you get some of the juicy stuff in it, relevant or not.
1
The article started by stating that the court files are sealed and the witnesses are not allowed to talk about it under a court order. So all of the details are not clear. But it looks like the two men would buy ciggs at a lower price, say for one dollar a pack, and would pretend to send them to Asia (they would send boxes of candy instead). Then they would sell the cigs for a higher price, say $1.50 a pack. And then they would put the extra 50 cents per pack into a bank account on the side, which the ATF would use as a fund to conduct other investigations. So the ATF was ripping off the tobacco farmers to create a slush fund for the ATF. When the farmers found out about it, they sued the ATF, and the judge has added the U.S. Government as the principal of the ATF as a defendant in the case. Evidently the ATF is part of the U.S. Department of Justice.
The US legal system is now as thoroughly corrupt as a third world country. I guess the US is now a third world country.
The
The US legal system is now as thoroughly corrupt as a third world country. I guess the US is now a third world country.
The
6
Thank you. I was confused by those same issues and thought it was just me not getting it. But now it's apparent that is was poorly explained/understood by the author.
3
So this is why statists do not move to ban tobacco products.
8
how about the millions of dollars paid to tobacco farmers in subsidies each year??
3
Tobacco farmers haven't gotten a federal subsidy since the buyout in 2004. They do still qualify for federal crop insurance, but so does every other crop grown in the U.S.A.
2
Immediately thought of Eric Garner who was murdered by police when selling loosie cigarettes. Protection of power.
77
"Part of their defense, records show, is that they acted on behalf of the government. In response, a judge recently added the United States government as a defendant."
So if the US government is found to be a racketeering outfit, what then? Can we finally send everyone to jail? If so, who will be running the jail?
So if the US government is found to be a racketeering outfit, what then? Can we finally send everyone to jail? If so, who will be running the jail?
64
"If so, who will be running the jail?"
A private contractor of course. Government is baaaad. \-:
The GOP sets these things in motion without proper guidance or forethought because they know it will go off course and provide proof they are right about government being the problem. It also does not hurt that they can make a lot of money setting up companies to "fix" the problem for us.
A private contractor of course. Government is baaaad. \-:
The GOP sets these things in motion without proper guidance or forethought because they know it will go off course and provide proof they are right about government being the problem. It also does not hurt that they can make a lot of money setting up companies to "fix" the problem for us.
4
Gee, I thought the Obama administration had been in charge of the ATF for the past eight years....
3
Funny, I always thought GOP was spelled "GOP" rather than "Obama Administration", "Eric Holder" and "Fast and Furious." It happened during Obama's and Holder's watch (as did "Fast and Furious"). A so-called "transparent," yet corrupt Presidential administration during the last 8 years is accountable.
When I lived on the upper east side of NYC in the 70's, had several friends who owned bar/restaurants. The mafia controlled all cigarette machines in those places and which mafia family controlled the store was well known. No one ever crossed those lines. The mafia would refill the machines every morning and took the cash.
These cigarettes came from NC and had no tax stamps on them thus a bunch of money was easily made.
This is a very old and well established scam which has enriched BATF/ATF agents for years.
Maybe it is time for these crooked agents to make small rocks out of big rocks in hard time federal prisons.
These cigarettes came from NC and had no tax stamps on them thus a bunch of money was easily made.
This is a very old and well established scam which has enriched BATF/ATF agents for years.
Maybe it is time for these crooked agents to make small rocks out of big rocks in hard time federal prisons.
146
I was a child (12) accomplice to a cigarette smuggling operation for 2 years beginning in 1971, riding shotgun with my mother (and later others) from Baltimore to North Carolina. The return destination was Staten Island, NY, to my uncle Nick Genovese. We bought for $2 a carton, and I believe the sell price was $5--to uncle Nick's network of captive recipients. I came to know other regular smugglers, the best cars and modifications, the hot counties (in Virginia) and when to swap licence plates and even vehicles. An average load was 750 cartons, 800 with the best car and an expert packer, a teenager we tipped nicely for the task. All cash on both ends. I recall a dark Italian restaurant with uncle Nick counting cash under a black light. Mother and I were caught and arrested once, in Virginia. we were sent to Richmond to pay the taxes and we're sent on our way, with our contraband. This was done based on need, a family of 7 on a single municipal salary. My mother was industrious and connected. We hardly fit a criminal profile, all in Catholic school, myself an altar boy and boy scout. A twisted tale, very Baltimore. It ended tragically, when I was 14. My mother was killed in a car accident, the trip related to smuggling. She orphaned 7 children.
I moved back to Brooklyn for six months back in 1970. I was staying with my Grandparents.
One morning my Grandmother asked me to get a couple of cartons of Camels for her. She gave me an address down the street and a password.
The woman who answered the door was from Italy and spoke little English. After I gave her the password she let me in and we went down to her basement where she had thousands of cartons of every major brand. I paid her and got the cigarettes.
"Buttlegging" as it is called is an old business that has only enriched truckers heading North from the South as well as the mob. There has to be some diminishing return to governments from every instance when the tax is raised.
One morning my Grandmother asked me to get a couple of cartons of Camels for her. She gave me an address down the street and a password.
The woman who answered the door was from Italy and spoke little English. After I gave her the password she let me in and we went down to her basement where she had thousands of cartons of every major brand. I paid her and got the cigarettes.
"Buttlegging" as it is called is an old business that has only enriched truckers heading North from the South as well as the mob. There has to be some diminishing return to governments from every instance when the tax is raised.
The NYT should write an article about how former NYC Mayor Mike Bloomberg donated $600 million and Bill Gates added another $125 million to implement The WHO MPOWER Program that was used in NYC in low- and middle-income countries.
You might like to read, Bloomberg:Frieden: How to Prevent 100 million Deaths from Tobacco.
http://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(07)60782-X/abstract
Tobacco farmers and tobacco company executives should be required to visit those people who are suffering from lung cancer at least once per year.
You might like to read, Bloomberg:Frieden: How to Prevent 100 million Deaths from Tobacco.
http://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(07)60782-X/abstract
Tobacco farmers and tobacco company executives should be required to visit those people who are suffering from lung cancer at least once per year.
12
i like your comments david m thank you
I'm a Trump zealot.
This article, describes a government agency creating a slush fund, for some off-the-books self-important operation.
This sounds like Iran-Contra, in aspects, one of us has said so, but in Iran Contra there were indictments, convictions, and federal pardons.
I await indictments here.
As an aside, it has always seemed odd that guns, booze, cigs, and things that go boom, are all in one agency, to me anyway,
=
And yes, everything is Obama's fault, just to cut to the chase.
Making this public, is part of draining the swamp
=
I differ from the tobacco zealots of course, but that is an old story
and I can think of many other self-harming issues I would place in higher priority
This article, describes a government agency creating a slush fund, for some off-the-books self-important operation.
This sounds like Iran-Contra, in aspects, one of us has said so, but in Iran Contra there were indictments, convictions, and federal pardons.
I await indictments here.
As an aside, it has always seemed odd that guns, booze, cigs, and things that go boom, are all in one agency, to me anyway,
=
And yes, everything is Obama's fault, just to cut to the chase.
Making this public, is part of draining the swamp
=
I differ from the tobacco zealots of course, but that is an old story
and I can think of many other self-harming issues I would place in higher priority
7
If you are willing to give higher priority to other "self-harming" issues, I bet, you are a smoker. Or maybe a former smoker still 'pining' for your lost addiction?
They are just finding a way against wrong headed regulations!
Scammers gotta scam. And, legally!
5
"The Times has fought to make all the documents public, but the Justice Department has argued successfully in court to keep them secret."
This would be the Justice Department under Obama, who promised that his administration would be the most transparent ever. Ha!
Secrecy aside, it's time to shutter ATF. It's an agency in search of a mission, and when it finds one, it's like Gomer Pyle and Barney teaming up to run the town parade while blindfolded.
This would be the Justice Department under Obama, who promised that his administration would be the most transparent ever. Ha!
Secrecy aside, it's time to shutter ATF. It's an agency in search of a mission, and when it finds one, it's like Gomer Pyle and Barney teaming up to run the town parade while blindfolded.
25
Thank you for pointing this out.
1
Agreed! Close the ATF, shift any useful responsibilities to FBI, and do not hire ATF agents so there's a clean break with this misbegotten mess of corrupt bureaucracy.
4
No wonder those low-information voters in tobacco country say they don't like "government regulation". Out west, our government regulations builds quality roads and hydro-power systems.
13
Right! My local Congressman and his family got rich farming rice with below cost federal water that we pay for with our taxes but he is against all government programs that help people.
34
And out here in flyover country our farmer-dominated legislature refuses to expand Medicaid because it is a federally funded and you know we can't take money from the danged gummint. And yet many of them accept federal crop subsidies. That's in the public record.
4
I have no sympathy for tobacco growers, including fifth generation ones, or for their cooperatives. They are growing and dealing in poison.
I watched my mother die from emphysema caused by cigarette smoking. She described what it felt like: "slow drowning." It took her seven years, seven years of agony, to finally die.
I would like to see the CEOs of tobacco companies behind bars. Clutching those bars.
I watched my mother die from emphysema caused by cigarette smoking. She described what it felt like: "slow drowning." It took her seven years, seven years of agony, to finally die.
I would like to see the CEOs of tobacco companies behind bars. Clutching those bars.
51
While I agree that the tobacco industry in general is killing thousands of people every year and that it should stop. I do not agree with the government do things under the table. This is what causes so much distrust between the average citizen and our government. You can't have things like this happening, it is an attack on these farmers' livelihood even if it is indirect. Today tobacco farms, tomorrow small business.
1
hear hear. if i could like your comment a million times I would.
6
I am a 10th generation grower. My family has long had a stance to never encourage the use of tobacco products. Personally, I discourage it at every chance. The majority of growers feel the same way.
You can sit back and say we shouldn't grow it, but I invite you to come to the central Appalachians and tell us what to do instead. We are all ears. Tobacco is dying a rapid death, and leaving many with no other option for income. Nothing can replace the money that tobacco makes us. No other crop produces anywhere near the same income.
Growers dislike the big companies just as much as the general public. They have us cornered in a monopolized market. Cooperatives are farmer-owned as an attempt to give the farmer a better deal, but they have greatly waned in their effectiveness.
When tobacco leaves my farm, it is in a 80 pound bale of dried leaves. We aren't rolling cigarettes in the barn--it is a commodity just like anything else.
You can sit back and say we shouldn't grow it, but I invite you to come to the central Appalachians and tell us what to do instead. We are all ears. Tobacco is dying a rapid death, and leaving many with no other option for income. Nothing can replace the money that tobacco makes us. No other crop produces anywhere near the same income.
Growers dislike the big companies just as much as the general public. They have us cornered in a monopolized market. Cooperatives are farmer-owned as an attempt to give the farmer a better deal, but they have greatly waned in their effectiveness.
When tobacco leaves my farm, it is in a 80 pound bale of dried leaves. We aren't rolling cigarettes in the barn--it is a commodity just like anything else.
84
The sordid history of the ATF goes back to prohibition, then chasing moonshiners in Appalacbia where making whisky was older than the USA itself, then on to Ruby Ridge and Waco, to Fast & Furious, now to cigarette smuggling to make money for a slush fund. After Prohibiton all the alleged offenses are tax evasion, only and always tax evasion: evading taxes on cigarettes, on whiskey, evading the $200 transfer tax on certain kinds of guns and silencers. A civilized nation should not tolerate such a violent, undisciplined bunch of tax collectors.
75
It is unclear how broadly the A.T.F. adopted this practice. I would be more concern of how many other govt agency are doing something like this.
What the matter take people money through the asset forfeiture not paying off anymore
What the matter take people money through the asset forfeiture not paying off anymore
8
Eric Garner had the wrong hustle. RIP.
30
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms should be the name of a convenience store, not a government agency.
119
Or even better those 3 (actually 4 as Explosives don't get a letter, but, are included) should be made illegal. No more alcohol, no more tobacco, no more firearms, no more explosives (except for legal uses in construction, then only with an expensive, yearly renewed license). Make the manufacturing of all illegal in this country. So, all the explosives (including for military purposes) would be imported. Of course moonshine wouldn't stop being made, the world wouldn't miss the brands made here, they have plenty. We tried prohibition once and ended up with more people drinking than ever before, in more kinds of places, and all of it controlled by the Mafia. So, I bet we could do it again for all. Just creating more organized crime, more murders, more shady government at all levels. Since they did a lot of the 'receiving' at beaches on the sea coast and on major rivers. The police were great at that in those days. They could be again.
1
Considering that the cooperative produces a dangerous, if not lethal product, can they be said to have 'clean hands'?
11
Corruption follows money. The only way to stop it is for people who believe in democracy, social/economic justice and are socially/morally/ethically healthy to step up and blow the whistle.
Now The Con Don wants to create a "rogue" immigration enforcement agency, with thousands of new hate-anger-fear-war operatives, to throw people out of the country - or pay bribes to stay. Hitler's boys were called "brown shirts".
WE must watch every single agent and every single move they make and stop injustices before they can be carried out. Every single day.
Our contempt for their democracy-destroying agenda trumps their hate-anger-fear-war-money.
Now The Con Don wants to create a "rogue" immigration enforcement agency, with thousands of new hate-anger-fear-war operatives, to throw people out of the country - or pay bribes to stay. Hitler's boys were called "brown shirts".
WE must watch every single agent and every single move they make and stop injustices before they can be carried out. Every single day.
Our contempt for their democracy-destroying agenda trumps their hate-anger-fear-war-money.
38
However, this happened WAY before Trump took office, how about blaming the Obama administration? It seems a huge scam was going on during that time period and it was hushed up. The lawsuit has been going on for 3 years. Where was the press during that time?
It's not THIS current President, it's MANY politicians we have to blame. Including the ones who have not banned cigarettes in the first place.
Or do you forget that Obama smoked?
He was soooo interested in health care, yet he forgot about going after a horrendous health hazard.
It's not THIS current President, it's MANY politicians we have to blame. Including the ones who have not banned cigarettes in the first place.
Or do you forget that Obama smoked?
He was soooo interested in health care, yet he forgot about going after a horrendous health hazard.
5
All this was done under the Obama administration.
4
The ATF is a rogue organization that is thwarting the will of congress and hiding from all oversight. It should be disbanded.
27
Reagan did disband it, but immediately rescinded the order.
2
If the GOP really wants to find areas to cut costs the ATF should be at the top of the list. The only time the ATF makes the news is when a new story of gross incompetence comes out. There is nothing the ATF does that couldn't be performed better by other, existing departments within Justice. Of course the GOP won't do that, the NRA likes the ATF just as it is, neutered and ineffective.
18
This would be a good swamp for King Donald to clean up. Disgusting.
15
Not clean up, demand all the money go to his offshore accounts. It takes a lot be become a trillionaire. He's working on "Direct Deposit" for all his ill gotten gains, and bribes.
2
You are joking, aren't you?
Less than 30 days after Trump's inauguration, his already infamous, irrational acts in the name of "law and order" have his administration embroiled in defending his actions in the federal court system, many Republican US Congresspersons are hiding like cowards from their own constituents back at home and US citizens are daily protesting in the streets against the corruption and incompetence of elected/appointed officials at all levels of government.
Read your history. Study the origins of the 18th Amendment (Prohibition) and the infamous Volstead Act passed in 1920 by a Republican-controlled US Congress, over the veto of a Democratic president.
Subsequent Republican presidents and Republican majorities in the US Congress after 1920 produced massive financial scandals (Teapot Dome, Great Depression) and widespread organized crime (Al Capone, et al) until 1932, when balance, rationality and sanity were restored within our federal government.
Thankfully, we still have a free and unbiased press in the USA.
PLEASE give us more fact-based, in-depth reporting like this very important story, New York Times. The very survival of our democratic republic depends on your clear, fact-based reporting.
Less than 30 days after Trump's inauguration, his already infamous, irrational acts in the name of "law and order" have his administration embroiled in defending his actions in the federal court system, many Republican US Congresspersons are hiding like cowards from their own constituents back at home and US citizens are daily protesting in the streets against the corruption and incompetence of elected/appointed officials at all levels of government.
Read your history. Study the origins of the 18th Amendment (Prohibition) and the infamous Volstead Act passed in 1920 by a Republican-controlled US Congress, over the veto of a Democratic president.
Subsequent Republican presidents and Republican majorities in the US Congress after 1920 produced massive financial scandals (Teapot Dome, Great Depression) and widespread organized crime (Al Capone, et al) until 1932, when balance, rationality and sanity were restored within our federal government.
Thankfully, we still have a free and unbiased press in the USA.
PLEASE give us more fact-based, in-depth reporting like this very important story, New York Times. The very survival of our democratic republic depends on your clear, fact-based reporting.
1
Here's a few items out of the ether....
Industry standard of tax evasion in the off-brand cigs industry is 50% compliance. How to stop it?
Lots of people went to jail as a result of the undercover operation, and the tax-collecting side of the house in ATF (the victim of any scheme to buy cigs for export and then sell them domestically) was thrilled to cooperate so that large-scale tax evaders would go to jail instead of just getting a civil tax bill which they could then bargain down to nothing.
Looks to me like plaintiff's lawyers aim to "shake down" the government for some money.
Industry standard of tax evasion in the off-brand cigs industry is 50% compliance. How to stop it?
Lots of people went to jail as a result of the undercover operation, and the tax-collecting side of the house in ATF (the victim of any scheme to buy cigs for export and then sell them domestically) was thrilled to cooperate so that large-scale tax evaders would go to jail instead of just getting a civil tax bill which they could then bargain down to nothing.
Looks to me like plaintiff's lawyers aim to "shake down" the government for some money.
Remember Eric Garner selling loose cigarettes? And was killed for it?
6
Sounds similar to the DEA stealing millions from legal medical cannabis growers.
Our government law enforcement agencies have a distinct population of thugs and thieves, that feel they have some kind of Constitutional right to enrich themselves beyond their paychecks..
Our government law enforcement agencies have a distinct population of thugs and thieves, that feel they have some kind of Constitutional right to enrich themselves beyond their paychecks..
41
Cowboys, all of them.
2
Don't insult real cowboys!
1
My apologies to the real cowboys.
So let me get this straight...
Eric Garner gets viciously attacked and murdered by NYC cops on the streets of Staten Island in broad daylight for selling some loose cigarettes from a pack of untaxed cigarettes that were very likely sold to Eric through this illegal ATF setup in order to prevent untaxed cigarettes from entering the market in the first place.
If our new General Attorney does not get up on this , he is as guilty as those chokehold cops in Staten Island
Heaven help us!
Eric Garner gets viciously attacked and murdered by NYC cops on the streets of Staten Island in broad daylight for selling some loose cigarettes from a pack of untaxed cigarettes that were very likely sold to Eric through this illegal ATF setup in order to prevent untaxed cigarettes from entering the market in the first place.
If our new General Attorney does not get up on this , he is as guilty as those chokehold cops in Staten Island
Heaven help us!
157
No, it's very unlikely that Eric Gardner was sold cigs through the ATF. You should read the story. Mr. Gardner most likely purchased the cigarettes from a store before he opened the pack and sold individual cigs to people who didn't want to spend $10 on a whole pack. And our new AG will never go after the ATF. He won't even go after the folks in the White House that are guilty of high treason.
4
So Eric Garner was murdered in cold blood in broad daylight for selling some "loosies" yet these ATF agents are running a racket on the taxpayer's dime? This picture is seriously skewed. If a neighbor lady sells some of her milk to her neighbor, to save her a trip to the store that she purchased from the local store, is she a criminal too for reselling milk illegally? Respect must be earned and this sort of criminal activity clearly hurts the reputation of all legit law enforcement, Maybe these ATF agents run drugs & booze on the side too,.....if they want to be entrepreneurs I suggest they leave the ATF and open a legal business.
follow the money and check personal assets
34
I'm sure many privileged readers of the NY Times (particularly legal professionals) still believe that law enforcement and attorneys general exist to protect, serve, and prosecute real criminals. This is simply not true. Rather the police exist to maximize arrests, and prosecutors exist to maximize jail time for those that are arested, whether truly criminal or not. I hope the young lawyers reading this will be more skeptical of police evidence during their careers, maybe even a few will choose to work as a criminal defense lawyer, potentially giving up a lucrative political career for doing what's right. "I prosecuted and jailed thousands of criminals" sounds much better on the campaign trail than "I freed thousands of falsely accused people from the ravenous US criminal justice system."
161
Come now, it's the first thing we little Deputy Prosecutors learn- no one comes with clean hands.
1
Hold up. Are you seriously arguing that the highly paid defense attorneys for...drug dealers, wall Street brokers, rich murderers, etc etc are the good guys?
Never define yourself as against someone or something. Being against the police is a surefire way to let slip bad things because they happen to agree with a specific point. A moral person holds true to what they believe. If what you believe is that the enforcement arm of our government is nothing more than self financing thugs, then leave. Please.
Never define yourself as against someone or something. Being against the police is a surefire way to let slip bad things because they happen to agree with a specific point. A moral person holds true to what they believe. If what you believe is that the enforcement arm of our government is nothing more than self financing thugs, then leave. Please.
2
reply to Charles Emerson Winchester III: You obviously know nothing about the people reading the NY Times based upon your attempt at sarcasm: "I'm sure many privileged readers of the NYTimes..." YES- actually we *are* Privileged " to have access to a newspaper like the Times- to read. There are millions of us- World Wide( and thankful that the Times along with many smaller news publications and sites are willing to expose this type of travesty.)
And yes-again- it is a Privilege to have a Free Press (still) to publish articles like this.If you knew anything about NYT Readers- you would realize we are the ones most likely to question the voracity of today's modern Policing tactics and unequal Justice- under the law.
And yes-again- it is a Privilege to have a Free Press (still) to publish articles like this.If you knew anything about NYT Readers- you would realize we are the ones most likely to question the voracity of today's modern Policing tactics and unequal Justice- under the law.
2
There's a serious, widespread problem in American law enforcement: self-funding. Here's the ATF building what looks like a slush fund, off the books and unaccountable and looking pretty much like Iran-Contra. But your local police get a cut of drug forfeiture money, so they hate marijuana legalization, because it cuts off the gravy train. Then there's civil forfeiture outside of drugs, which is plainly against the Fourth Amendment, no matter what the Supreme Court has said.
We've wound up making our law enforcement agencies look in these cases like the criminal gangs they're ostensibly charged with shutting down.
We've wound up making our law enforcement agencies look in these cases like the criminal gangs they're ostensibly charged with shutting down.
321
Whenever there is a large pool of money, some of that inevitably is siphoned off for personal gain, whether it is industry or government. Greed is rampant through out all societies. Given that greed is a basic part of human nature, all governments need to work together to monitor more closely where possible the instances where greed can come into play, particularly when it impacts the public purse.
3
Smuggling is caused by high taxes, and in this case, the high taxes are the result of anti-tobacco laws that attempt, despite all the lessons of history, to tax a product out of existence.
And then the smuggling corrupts the government at all levels.
Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.
And then the smuggling corrupts the government at all levels.
Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.
13
Those high taxes have also helped lead the US to historically low smoking rates. If the actual cost of smoking were internalized in the cost per pack (costs resulting from the population level impact of smoking's ill effects), a pack would cost much, much more than it does currently. Regulation and taxes work. They aren't perfect, but don't let that make you think they're an enemy of good.
7
Of course, the ends justify the means.
2
The ATF has a long record of such foul ups. It should be noted that this occurred under the Obama administration.
12
Absolutely! Everything bad that's ever happened is Obama's fault! No doubt, he had them smuggle in cigarettes into the White House to keep his not-so-hidden habit going!
What can you expect from someone born in Kenya (according to our so-called "president")?!
<sarcasm off>
(Hash tag for the sarcastically-challenged!)
What can you expect from someone born in Kenya (according to our so-called "president")?!
<sarcasm off>
(Hash tag for the sarcastically-challenged!)
54
Which is it, a long history or due to the Obama administration? I would vote for the former given that the NRA wants the ATF to stay just as it is, which is just how the NRA has made them via their congressmen.
21
Just taking a wild guess here, but I'll bet that this problem began waaaaaay before the Obama administration. But nice of you to try to pin it on him.
Here's another guess: I'll bet you voted for....oh, never mind.
Here's another guess: I'll bet you voted for....oh, never mind.
36
This is a well-researched, well-written article. The ATF under Obama long ago proved itself to be complicit in all manner of efforts to "radically transform" America. Unfortunately, what has occurred with the ATF has been just the tip of the iceberg, as there are dozens of federal agencies that have gone rogue under Obama (see. e.g., the IRSand Department of InJustice). And now all of his well-placed minions are digging in to subvert the lawful transfer of power in what we used to call a democracy.
13
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Everything bad is Obama's fault, and everything good can be credited to the congressional Republicans.
Give it break already.
Give it break already.
34
Why should we?
“These are really, really good people,” said Stuart D. Thompson, the cooperative’s chief executive. “Every year, they take all their chips. They put them on the table, and they hope they get them all back.”
Except, of course, that the product they are hawking is a deadly substance which ought to be banned from commercial sale (I have no problems with people growing their own - if they want to poison themselves, so be it).
Cigarettes have cost this country billions of lives and even more money. I personally knew 7 people who lost their lives to the consequences of smoking, 2 from small-cell lung carcinoma, one of the swiftest and most deadly forms of cancer, and 3 from the slow suffocation that is COPD. That the ATF would collude in this, even for enforcement purposes, is disgusting. Prosecute them, and then let's have the Agriculture department find the farmers a new, less deadly, crop to grow.
Except, of course, that the product they are hawking is a deadly substance which ought to be banned from commercial sale (I have no problems with people growing their own - if they want to poison themselves, so be it).
Cigarettes have cost this country billions of lives and even more money. I personally knew 7 people who lost their lives to the consequences of smoking, 2 from small-cell lung carcinoma, one of the swiftest and most deadly forms of cancer, and 3 from the slow suffocation that is COPD. That the ATF would collude in this, even for enforcement purposes, is disgusting. Prosecute them, and then let's have the Agriculture department find the farmers a new, less deadly, crop to grow.
124
Aye. We ought to have worthwhile, well-paid jobs, offered first (not *only*, but first) to people who have lived here all their lives; but tobacco is poison and death and one who farms or sells it is a murderer fit for prison, not employment.
They can keep their jobs, so long as they keep *other* jobs.
They can keep their jobs, so long as they keep *other* jobs.
2
Hemp. But even industrial hemp, with ultra low THC levels, is illegal. Canada grows industrial hemp with no problems.
Hemp will grow in the same climate and soil as tobacco.
Hemp will grow in the same climate and soil as tobacco.
22
You are welcome to come down to the mid-south and tell me and my fellow tobacco growers just how horrible we are. 9 previous generations of my family have grown it. We have worked 11 months out of evey year to tend a crop that paid the mortgage, bought groceries, and sent the kids to college. Tobacco is extremely labor intensive and we have done it all.
I'll never apologize for being a tobacco farmer. It's what we do, it's what we have always done. The market is doing more to crush us than anything. Tobacco from Zimbabwe and Brazil is so much cheaper than American tobacco that we will all be gone within 15 years.
I'll never apologize for being a tobacco farmer. It's what we do, it's what we have always done. The market is doing more to crush us than anything. Tobacco from Zimbabwe and Brazil is so much cheaper than American tobacco that we will all be gone within 15 years.
8
B.A.F.T. & D.E.A. are rogue agencies. Both are out of control. Both agencies are known for its "reign of terror" upon innocent citizens. There is no recourse against a rogue agent or prosecution based upon an agent's fabricated paranoia and lies. The D.E.A. dictates policy to control drug manufacturing limits and prescription practice by terrifying physicians. There is no concern for patients or patient privacy. A physician's reputation and practice can be destroyed with no proof of wrongdoing by a D.E.A. agent's accusation. The physician has no recourse. The BAFT & the DEA have ignored the rule of law with impunity and corruption.
Congress needs to accept that existing & more law enforcement is not necessarily in the best interest of the country without separate, independent institutional structure to timely and vigorously police the police to account.