If I could find a job that is more important than parenting then I might consider going back to paid work.
3
I have a master's degree in a technical field, but I haven't held a "real" job since my first child was born in 1982. I liked my job, but with the cost of child care, commuting, work clothes, and taxes, I would have been letting other people raise my child in exchange for earning a grand total of $8 a day.
If I'd been a doctor or a lawyer I could have borrowed the money to stay in the job market for a few years, and in the long run that would have been a better financial decision.
Instead, I worked as a freelancer for 25 years, editing books, until the bottom fell out of that market. Now I'm in a sales job, still as an independent contractor.
Do I regret my decision to "stay home" and freelance after having children? No.
Do I wish I had a fancy career now? Yes.
Do I understand how complicated these decisions are for every woman who has a family? ABSOLUTELY.
If I'd been a doctor or a lawyer I could have borrowed the money to stay in the job market for a few years, and in the long run that would have been a better financial decision.
Instead, I worked as a freelancer for 25 years, editing books, until the bottom fell out of that market. Now I'm in a sales job, still as an independent contractor.
Do I regret my decision to "stay home" and freelance after having children? No.
Do I wish I had a fancy career now? Yes.
Do I understand how complicated these decisions are for every woman who has a family? ABSOLUTELY.
17
The woman in the article had her mother handling childcare duties. This is ideal. It's affordable, it's reliable, in most cases. But even then: this is what mothers have to look forward to - taking care of grandchildren to help their grown children manage to keep jobs and raise children?
Is it that much more complicated to be a parent and work to bring in a paycheck? Yes.
Is it that much more complicated to be a parent and work to bring in a paycheck? Yes.
6
If you had a master's degree in a technical field that would've led to a "fancy career" why did you not work for a few years and set aside funds, presuably in concert with a working spouse, to cover child care.
As one who has supported a household on one income since about 1982, I can tell you that having an extra one to save would've led to a very substantial pile of cash in just a couple of years.
Very curious why that wasn't a solution for you and why it is not one that people use nowadays. Spare me the "it takes two incomes" because I and many moderate earners like me -- millions of us -- are living proof that it does NOT take two incomes to manage a pretty decent life. That second income when available can be leveraged into a major advantage with a modicum of self-control and prudence.
As one who has supported a household on one income since about 1982, I can tell you that having an extra one to save would've led to a very substantial pile of cash in just a couple of years.
Very curious why that wasn't a solution for you and why it is not one that people use nowadays. Spare me the "it takes two incomes" because I and many moderate earners like me -- millions of us -- are living proof that it does NOT take two incomes to manage a pretty decent life. That second income when available can be leveraged into a major advantage with a modicum of self-control and prudence.
9
Something not addressed in this article is the new prevalence of erratic scheduling by employers, who expect their employees to be on call 24/7 without advance notice for less than 40 hr workweeks. This makes any kind of dependent care a nightmare, whether it is childcare or supervision of eldercare. One has to have a 24/7/365 back up at home to work in these circumstances, a spouse, sibling, or parent who is available because they work at home all the time. Few people have that luxury and it makes working with family responsibilities almost impossible. Yet we do not seem to have any laws forbidding this kind of abusive worker exploitation.
11
This is a story of a woman moving from paid labor to unpaid labor. It should be read by policymakers and business managers, because this is very common, and now that women's wages are heavily factored into the national economic equation, it has big consequences.
10
The fact that the participation of women in the labor force has not, over the years, increased in the United States, while it has in almost every major country points to a fundamental problem - the lack of an affordable, efficient and trustworthy support system. When a woman has young children to look after and also a full time job, more often than not, she is often overwhelmed by her responsibilities and the stress associated with it. Then there is also the issue of aging and ailing parents, who also need attention and care. Why have we as a society failed to create an adequate support system that takes care of the needs of children, working men and women and also that of sick and aging parents? Why are governments (state or federal) not providing enough, in terms of subsidies to create an affordable, qualified and reliable caregiving system? I strongly believe that unless we have such a system in place, women are going to continue making these trade offs that are not only not empowering them, but also hurt the national economy badly.
15
Society chose not to create such a system because it really doesn't need to subsidize the addition of MORE people to an already saturated labor market. Perhaps other countries need labor more than the US does.
Trust me, if there were a shortage of competent people, employers and lawmakers would do what it takes "to get moms into the workforce." But for the moment, all of you clamoring that you want it all, on everyone else's dime, just aren't special enough to merit those expensive accommodations. Choose your path, own it and accept that there will be trade-offs.
Trust me, if there were a shortage of competent people, employers and lawmakers would do what it takes "to get moms into the workforce." But for the moment, all of you clamoring that you want it all, on everyone else's dime, just aren't special enough to merit those expensive accommodations. Choose your path, own it and accept that there will be trade-offs.
6
The gender discrepancies are hurting men and women. The ongoing discussion about men's work and women's work and the mommy track and life/work balance deflects from a broader conversation about why the workplace remains so inflexible in the computer era.
9
It's absurd that a women can't raise two children with no partner and no support network. What have we done as a country when a women has to have a community of friends and family before she can do everything she wants to do?
7
Absurd? Are you kidding? When children go to school, they have different schedules than parents. Let's start there...
5
It's not absurd at all. Children require time and money, both of which are fixed. Do the math.
4
Let's get real. The reason that more women choose not to work is because someone else is paying to support them. Someone is paying for their food and shelter and clothes, they aren't homeless. It's their husbands or their parents or the taxpayers. Men don't have these options because there is no one else willing to pay to support them.
If taxpayers or their parents or spouse were willing to support voluntarily unworking men, many men would take that option but it isn't on the table. I do note that some women commenters do support their unworking husbands, but wow do they sound incredibly resentful about it, which is not an attitude you commonly hear from men who support their wives.
Based on this article, male participation rate in the labor force began declining as soon as women entered the work force, and we have never had more than 2/3 of men and women of working age with jobs. Maybe it's time we just accept that we can produce all goods and services for which there is a demand without the need for everyone to work, and there are more adults than jobs needed for them to do.
Also, to everyone pretending that caring for your own family is a "job" that should be compensated...no, it is not. Caring for *someone else's* family is a job. Just like cleaning someone else's house or raking someone else's lawn is a job. When you do those things for yourself it's just called living life.
If taxpayers or their parents or spouse were willing to support voluntarily unworking men, many men would take that option but it isn't on the table. I do note that some women commenters do support their unworking husbands, but wow do they sound incredibly resentful about it, which is not an attitude you commonly hear from men who support their wives.
Based on this article, male participation rate in the labor force began declining as soon as women entered the work force, and we have never had more than 2/3 of men and women of working age with jobs. Maybe it's time we just accept that we can produce all goods and services for which there is a demand without the need for everyone to work, and there are more adults than jobs needed for them to do.
Also, to everyone pretending that caring for your own family is a "job" that should be compensated...no, it is not. Caring for *someone else's* family is a job. Just like cleaning someone else's house or raking someone else's lawn is a job. When you do those things for yourself it's just called living life.
7
That's because the unemployed men are lazy, but the unemployed women are busy raising the kids and keeping up the house.
4
i have a version of silent migraine called 'migraine associated vertigo'. it's a poorly named condition in which my short term memory is severely limited, because i am having constant ocular migraine & vertigo symptoms.
i could not do my last job, after forgetting the names of clients, of my boss, my own, or what i was doing *in the moment*. for a while i figured i could do a job with less stress, but it has become evident that there's too many new details for almost any task for me to remember them. i set reminders and then forget to pay attention to them.
i'd love to be able to work. i miss a job, and i miss my brain, and i miss social interactions & contributing to the community. but i have trouble with daily tasks, and it's just too much. i fall down - hitting the floor - about once every 3 months. i lean - falling onto furniture or a wall & thus able to get back up - several times a day. i seem drunk - especially when someone asks me about an event 2 weeks ago or a detail from yesterday that i absolutely blank on.
if i could do something at home, i would, because i am home very much most of the time. but 'i can see colors with my eyes closed, and enjoy [ha] the sensation of moving when i'm utterly still, and can't remember what i did yesterday' aren't in high demand.
to be clear; my life still has meaning, and friends, and stuff to do, but it has to be utterly flexible and mostly online.
i could not do my last job, after forgetting the names of clients, of my boss, my own, or what i was doing *in the moment*. for a while i figured i could do a job with less stress, but it has become evident that there's too many new details for almost any task for me to remember them. i set reminders and then forget to pay attention to them.
i'd love to be able to work. i miss a job, and i miss my brain, and i miss social interactions & contributing to the community. but i have trouble with daily tasks, and it's just too much. i fall down - hitting the floor - about once every 3 months. i lean - falling onto furniture or a wall & thus able to get back up - several times a day. i seem drunk - especially when someone asks me about an event 2 weeks ago or a detail from yesterday that i absolutely blank on.
if i could do something at home, i would, because i am home very much most of the time. but 'i can see colors with my eyes closed, and enjoy [ha] the sensation of moving when i'm utterly still, and can't remember what i did yesterday' aren't in high demand.
to be clear; my life still has meaning, and friends, and stuff to do, but it has to be utterly flexible and mostly online.
5
Walking out on a job because of sexual harassment was the biggest mistake, I've made. I should have fought but it's wasn't that simple. After being sexually harassed in the workplace, you are intimidated and embarrassed. Although, it was satisfying to leave, I didn't benefit from unemployment and job hopping isn't impressive on a resume. After months of living off of savings, working late nights at a clothing store and receiving insurance benefits for my 2 year old and I through Obamacare, I was fortunate to find a job in my field but I would never willingly leave work again because finding the right job was hard and I racked up quite the credit card bill. A year later, I am finally back on my feet but it was a very difficult time. I would recommend all single mothers who are struggling in work or personally to keep your job until you have another, better job lined up.
5
I've been job hunting for over a year although I currently have a job which is OK but not ideal. I am very fortunate to have tech skills and I'm not that worried about my prospects. One thing I have been plagued by, which I am sure plagues *everyone* are these contract-to-hire schemes. These staffing & recruiting companies put ALL of the RISK on the worker. I've seen companies exploiting these schemes promising full-time, but never intending to deliver full time employment. Everybody profits EXCEPT the actual worker. Also, if you are talented you don't want to approach a job via contract-to-hire. I can't afford to waste time and money so I have to turn down contract-to-hire opportunities.
7
I'd say the answer is social democracy, with a solid floor beneath which no one can fall. Higher, communitarian tax progressiveness coupled with a social vision is necessary. But we no longer appear to be a democracy in the 21st century; and not much of a society either.
10
Employment is not a single issue and as the article states, there are other issues to consider. Unlike our European peers, we don't have paid family leave and universal, child care - two issues that working parents contend with. Secretary Clinton talked about paid family leave and child care but Rust Belt White Americans voted in a president and Congress who won't introduce policies that benefit working parents. They are intent on making things worse with the repeal of the Affordable Care Act and the executive order related to FHA mortgages. As much as I want to have sympathy for Donald Trump supporters, I haven't been able to garner any. Their decision looks more and more ridiculous the longer Cheeto Satan is in office.
10
Clinton would have done nothing. I notice that there is mention of her 'talk.' Having a Clinton president AGAIN would have been same old, same old. Ugh
And that is why change was voted in.
And that is why change was voted in.
2
Many women drop out when the cost of child care, taxes, and business expenses exceed the value of the work. Many women love their jobs but they also love their families. They have discovered you can't have it all, and most of us can't afford nannies, housekeepers, etc. which generally means pretty stressed families. In addition, business is generally inflexible about hours, and expectations, even when they may not effect performance. Other countries provide paid child care and maternity leave for both women and men.
5
These are basic issues. Amazing that politicians, male and female, seem to be blind when it comes to the very practical.
1
I lost two jobs during the recession. Good jobs with good benefits. Then the age ceiling hit. In my sixties and still needing to work, at first I'd still be interviewed and often make it into the group chosen for final interviews. After two years of trying (recessions last longer in Maine and there's stiff competition for career jobs as young professionals want to move their families here), I saw that I was not making it into the final round of interviews. Researching the people who were hired for jobs I pursued, I discovered they were all under 50 years of age.
Yes, I know how to craft my resume so potential employers aren't sure of my age. (AARP has good articles on those strategies. Now that's sad.) Now in my mid-sixties (and still needing to work), I can't really cover up my senior status. I work part time when I can, for half (or less) of the salary I had before. The age barrier is very real. I've met many capable women who are in this situation.
Yes, I know how to craft my resume so potential employers aren't sure of my age. (AARP has good articles on those strategies. Now that's sad.) Now in my mid-sixties (and still needing to work), I can't really cover up my senior status. I work part time when I can, for half (or less) of the salary I had before. The age barrier is very real. I've met many capable women who are in this situation.
22
Unfortunately, any people-finder site on the Internet has been able to find someone's age, usually correctly, for at least ten years, and probably more like fifteen years. Some interviewers might not check, and some are pretending they don't know the age of the interviewee.
3
The director my unit beelines it to Facebook and the net before scheduling interviews. People with 9 million social media posts about their kids are highly unlikely to be summoned. We know where their priorities lie.
2
We would do much better as a nation and a community if we would approach solutions as win-win, rather than the zero sum game that appears to be the limit of Trumps' imagination. There are many workers close to retirement age who would welcome the flexibility to make a change to part time work (with access to health benefits) and who could afford to do so. Were employers and our government to enable this scenario there would be good part time jobs for younger workers who bear care responsibilities and need flexible hours. This would have the benefit of keeping knowledge and experience in the work force while also promoting the training of workers in new skills from knowledgeable mentors. It would likely improve both the physical and mental health of our nation and contribute greatly to the sense of a common goal which we surely need.
14
We got to where we are without Trump. He's not responsible. Look to your Congress and look at the politicians who have made a handsome living skidding along with weak solutions and lack of understanding.
I notice that gender has not made a difference when it comes to the concerns and canned rhetoric of past administrations and Congresses.
I notice that gender has not made a difference when it comes to the concerns and canned rhetoric of past administrations and Congresses.
2
The single most significant barrier to success I see at our greenhouses for young women is the child care issue. Period. Full stop. They have kids too young, so let's defund Planned Parenthood. They have husbands or boyfriends who simply don't help wth childcare, so let's bring misogyny roaring back. The safety net of parents or grandparents is gone, they have two jobs too. I don't know what the answer is but I do know that ceasing the demonizing of birth control and giving these young woman the chance to control their bodies would be a good start.
20
Birth control clinics in every public school for students 13 and over -free, no questions asked - would be a positive start.
Too bad the superstitious cults have more political power than do sensible, practical citizens
Too bad the superstitious cults have more political power than do sensible, practical citizens
7
Yes. Children. Do. Complicate. Matters.
2
I worked for years on a very popular daytime TV show until I had to quit once I had a baby last year. It was one of the hardest decisions I've had to make as I have been a workaholic since I was 14. I also loved my job.
However, I did not make enough to pay for daycare and actually have anything left over after taxes, 401k, medical insurance, etc. I would be breaking even just to go to work while he sits in a room filled with strangers and other people's kids. I also never found a daycare facility that was open past 6pm, and I would sometimes work 12-hour days. It was a lose/lose situation. It still just amazes me that in 2017 the only solution was to stay home; my employer and bosses didn't even attempt to work with me on flex-time or providing childcare for us at work, and almost everyone on my show is a parent! It's completely ridiculous.
Unless you work for Facebook (a company that has great family benefits), you might suddenly find yourself on permanent unpaid maternity leave.
However, I did not make enough to pay for daycare and actually have anything left over after taxes, 401k, medical insurance, etc. I would be breaking even just to go to work while he sits in a room filled with strangers and other people's kids. I also never found a daycare facility that was open past 6pm, and I would sometimes work 12-hour days. It was a lose/lose situation. It still just amazes me that in 2017 the only solution was to stay home; my employer and bosses didn't even attempt to work with me on flex-time or providing childcare for us at work, and almost everyone on my show is a parent! It's completely ridiculous.
Unless you work for Facebook (a company that has great family benefits), you might suddenly find yourself on permanent unpaid maternity leave.
9
I hate to say this, but the situation today is because that's the way male bosses want it:
no national child care = no flexibility = less female workers = less competition
no national child care = no flexibility = less female workers = less competition
3
Nanny? Au pair? Save up in advance to cover costs? Move?
What you mean is that no one is facilitating your personal wants & serving up easy solutions on a platter. Well, that's life on a planet competing with 7 billion others. We all have our own wants and dreams.
And with a ready labor surplus to tap, why should any employer jump through hoops? To be "nice?" Businesses aren't charities and most of us are very easily replaced.
If you want kids be prepared to make major career and financial trade offs. It's not going to change. With billions more humans than we already can employ productively and major environmental concerns being exacerbated daily, your offspring simply aren't that valuable or desirable in the grand scheme.
What you mean is that no one is facilitating your personal wants & serving up easy solutions on a platter. Well, that's life on a planet competing with 7 billion others. We all have our own wants and dreams.
And with a ready labor surplus to tap, why should any employer jump through hoops? To be "nice?" Businesses aren't charities and most of us are very easily replaced.
If you want kids be prepared to make major career and financial trade offs. It's not going to change. With billions more humans than we already can employ productively and major environmental concerns being exacerbated daily, your offspring simply aren't that valuable or desirable in the grand scheme.
7
I completely agree with M.V. Shiloh 2012 -
KosherDill your rude and unconstructive comment reinforces the problem.
KosherDill your rude and unconstructive comment reinforces the problem.
5
So many speak of the issue of quality daycare or adequate maternity leave but that only addresses the initial years of a child’s life. As the mother of two girls (and a husband with a demanding job that required extensive travel), most of the care fell to me. I did not want to leave the workforce. What I wanted was shortened work hours. I quit my job when my children were in early primary school because I envisioned a “development plan” for them that I simply could not execute working full time (searched in vein for years for a part-time professional job). I wanted to be able to pick my children up after school, take them to their lessons, and help them with their homework. I did not wish to farm those tasks out to others because I wanted to enjoy and appreciate them while I had the chance. My children are now in college and doing well. I have been attempting to enter the workforce after an 8 year absence with little success. I have a masters degree and a law degree and 15 years of work experience both corporate and firm. I do not regret my decision and understood the consequences at the time I made it. I hope my daughters will have more options to continue professional careers while having greater flexibility to enjoy their families when the time comes, but I am doubtful.
18
You have a law degree? Brush up on those skills, apply for jobs and be willing to relocate. You are in a much better position than most - and the best thing is that your children are in college. They are effectively 'out of the house.'
1
I have a similar story. I gave up trying to overcome my age and started my own business.
4
I am a woman who sought out to do the "right" things. I never had children because I worked a lot - multiple jobs and college classes to build myself up to where I am today. My family members had their struggles with children, health problems, and unemployment, and so, I found myself assisting my relatives with time and financial support. I watched my love ones fall into circumstances, many of which were not their fault. For instance, my mother has an autoimmune disease which causes her to go blind from time to time; she does not work. My father has health problems and he is showing early signs of Alzheimer's disease. I have graduated college four times leaving me with student loans and a job that doesn't pay enough to cover the repayment of those loans. I find myself caring for my family more and more instead of working on planning to have my own family. It's interesting to think that I was doing everything right, only to end up finding out that the burden of my loved ones would soon become mine. They do not have the healthcare, funding, insurance, government and employment programs to help them succeed. One day I may find myself quitting my job to take care of my parents, and find myself facing the negative consequences of investing into my future to nowhere.
6
Welcome to the U.S. of A.
Demand those services that you need to help you with those burdens. And then hold those people accountable who have settled into government jobs and paid lip service to solving the very problems you describe.
Demand those services that you need to help you with those burdens. And then hold those people accountable who have settled into government jobs and paid lip service to solving the very problems you describe.
4
I left a professional position because I was being verbally and psychologically abused. I was 59 years old and even though I had two professions degrees I knew I would never get a job in the same professional capacity again. FORTUNATELY, it was a state job in which my retirement included health care. Without that burden I was able to take a job for far less pay, but one in which kindness, compassion and creativity were rewarded. I work as an activity coordinator in a skilled nursing facility (nursing home), where though often unpleasant and always understaffed, I help individuals facing death (often with unimaginable suffering) have a laugh or a pleasant experience at least once a day. After five years during which I earned about eight to ten dollars over minimum wage, I have begun to take on more responsibilities for my own elderly mother, and the time to quit this job and care for my mother is not far off. But I wanted to make the point that help is desperately needed in places like nursing homes and even though the pay is never enough, it's more than minimum wage and you also earn the "psychic paycheck" of helping others.
15
This from commenter Susan below bears repeating:
"What makes you think that all the taxpayers who are supporting you are thrilled with their own jobs? Why is it OK to force us to do jobs we don't like so that you don't have to do the same?"
"What makes you think that all the taxpayers who are supporting you are thrilled with their own jobs? Why is it OK to force us to do jobs we don't like so that you don't have to do the same?"
9
I think "conservatives" like Paul Ryan should just SAY that they don't want to pay for children. They should just speak the truth for once. Republican's do not support families. Military, lobbyists, sure - families nope.
8
if you're making $15-$20/ per hour and it costs the same to pay someone to care for a sick parent, you quit your job and stay home.
7
I downsized my career to bring my then 89 year old mother to live w/my husband and I... I didn't want her in Assisted Living 3,000 miles away; in one of those (however nice they are), care factories... That said, with her severe aortic stenosis, she lived another 2 1/2 years; had a lovely, caring, eventful life... As her Senior Concierge, I did not receive any Social Security credit during those 2 1/2 years and because she fell into the middle class gap w/too high SS herself, we received no financial assistance for ANYTHING... Pay $25/hour for a caregiver, where is that money supposed to come from... Of course there's missing women in the labor market? We are the caregivers! And, unrewarded by our society for it.... Women are still 2nd class citizens in this country, when will women get it?
20
I am also a mom with two degrees - and I had 15 years experience and a six figure desk job when I got laid off. I also had a 4 year old at home. I'd worked hard in both school and career and wanted to work. I looked for another job. But we did not have family or friends to help with childcare and, once we lost my salary, I no longer had any money to pay for child care. Not having any childcare options was a black hole for my job hunt. I was educated determined to work and tenacious in my effort. And I struggled, HARD, to network and make it to interviews. It was even harder to arrive well groomed and able to professionally discuss work. I paid a college student my entire salary to babysit when I got project work - then ruined that student's summer when my project got cancelled and I couldn't pay for the summer position I'd promised to provide. I got some flexibility when my child went to school, but even then had only small 2 hour window to commute, interview and make school pick-up (always worried about unreliable subway commute time). Getting a full time job was "chicken and egg" - I couldn't pay for childcare unless I worked and I couldn't work unless I had childcare. It took six years, and my child growing up some, for me to crawl out of the quicksand black hole of no child care and into a full time job - where I'm paid substantially less than I was, but have schedule flexibility that allows a life more balanced between family and work.
10
Legislators refuse to understand that keeping people employed and making it easier to get a job produces tax revenue and consumers, and reduces the need for government assistance.
3
I have a 10-mos. old baby and am currently in this boat. I can't afford childcare unless I work, and I can't work unless I have childcare. So I ended up quitting my job I've had for years and we are making ends meet off one income; which is something I never thought I would do.
4
You've had a job for "years" and presumably an emoloyed partner too but you couldn't save up to cover child care? Hogwash.
2
Life is hard. People make it harder by having multiple children by different partners. I feel sorry for this woman but sometimes people make poor choices in life. I see 40 year old lawyers willing to take an administrative job to get something. I'm sure it's beneath them but that is the brutal world we live in today.
8
I don't think that most women intend to have children with different people. This article referenced a woman's "partner." Would it seem better if it were specified as her previous marriage? I think that certain circumstances bringing people down different paths.
1
Many of us manage to avoid bearing children by multiple bio donors. It's not brain surgery. Stop making these women out to be victims.
2
I'm actually a woman who brings home most of the money. It's my husband who doesn't make much and doesn't seem to be interested in getting a real, full-time job. Maybe write another story about how men feel like they don't have to work nowadays.
10
After reading this article and the commentary, one comes to the negative conclusion that we are facing an economic and social tsunami very soon. With the retirement of the enormous Baby Boom generation – and its lack of retirement resources and dependency upon younger generations working unstable low-end jobs or none at all – and the lack of resources to care for the looming elderly population – we are in for it, folks. It’s going to be every man/woman for him/herself. God help you if you don’t have a family and friends network for home care. You think homelessness is bad now? Just wait a few years. And then there’s the current Trump Fiasco Billionaire Administration and Congress that want to cut so-called “entitlements.” We are a nation with its head in the sand - not facing the fact that it cannot and will not care for itself.
20
I lost my full-time job nearly seven years ago. We couldn't find child care for our baby in our small town, so I took her in to the office with me--against human resources direction--for many months. When told I'd be fired if I didn't come up with something, I begged a spot for her in the university-run daycare, and was skipped ahead of hundreds of people on the wait list. They provided substandard care (I would come to pick up my baby, who would be red and screaming on her back in a corner of the room while the staff chatted on the other side), and after two weeks told me I could no longer leave my baby with them, as she had NEVER STOPPED CRYING. Despite five years at my State job requiring extensive skills and a degree, it only paid $12 an hour, which was less after taxes than babysitters required. I handed in my notice, and have tried to do freelance work ever since, have even sold food at farmer's markets. I have a degree with highest honors from a top university, had a solid resume, and did everything I could to keep up my portfolio. I have applied for a few jobs since then, but need them to be flexible hours and part-time, since I now have two kids in school, none of the jobs pay enough to bother with babysitters, and just the amount of sick and vacation days from school would mean I would be fired from any traditional work situation. Now I figure that my work cleaning, cooking, taking care of kids, etc. is worth more than I would ever make at a job, and have given up.
11
So you're looking for an employer that pays a high wage and yer understands that your attention to your job is low priority, that you'll miss many days of work ad hoc and that you must work shorter hours. And you expect to be favored over those who are ready, willing and able to make work a priority?
Take a look around at the number of people competing for jobs. If you hamstring yourself, don't blame the employers or society. It was a conscious choice.
Take a look around at the number of people competing for jobs. If you hamstring yourself, don't blame the employers or society. It was a conscious choice.
2
Families desperately need help with child care, elder care, and care for people with disabilities. It's at least as important as keeping immigrants out of the country and building more weapons.
9
The "video games" idea is a stereotype, one which needlessly and inaccurately blames men for their difficulties finding work. Lay off it, Times. Enough is more than enough.
9
Check back on this trend in four years after Trump's Labor Secretary Andrew Puzder takes a run at wages.
7
For me, it's because as my widowed mother moved into her 80's, she needed someone to cook, care for her at home, keep her going.
That meant my quitting my job in another town in 2011, taking me from an income already low after the 2008 recession, to virtually none. It meant moving 600 miles to a small city (60,000) in a rural area with NO jobs, as it turned out. This means I also drained my remaining savings, am not accruing any social security for my own retirement, have worked 5 years of very sporadic low-wage jobs, and am only now coming back toward having some income, at a fraction of what my master's and years of experience should be getting me -- would be, if I weren't in the middle of nowhere, tending to Mom.
On the good side: mom is healthier now at 88 than she was 5 years ago. Far less stress, because she has a cook, on-call driver, errand-runner, and companion. My siblings, married and living elsewhere, don't have to worry about her. (They help, but not daily.) I've had the opportunity -- as it were -- to do a lot of volunteering, where that can flex around mom's needs. I've slowly rebuilt a new life, including a major community non-profit effort producing fresh weekly, organic produce for our large local food basket. (Funded, but not yet paying for any staff.)
I can never recover the savings lost. I will never have retirement. I am doing the "moral" thing as a care-giver. I've met many others doing the same. Why isn't this valued or compensated?
That meant my quitting my job in another town in 2011, taking me from an income already low after the 2008 recession, to virtually none. It meant moving 600 miles to a small city (60,000) in a rural area with NO jobs, as it turned out. This means I also drained my remaining savings, am not accruing any social security for my own retirement, have worked 5 years of very sporadic low-wage jobs, and am only now coming back toward having some income, at a fraction of what my master's and years of experience should be getting me -- would be, if I weren't in the middle of nowhere, tending to Mom.
On the good side: mom is healthier now at 88 than she was 5 years ago. Far less stress, because she has a cook, on-call driver, errand-runner, and companion. My siblings, married and living elsewhere, don't have to worry about her. (They help, but not daily.) I've had the opportunity -- as it were -- to do a lot of volunteering, where that can flex around mom's needs. I've slowly rebuilt a new life, including a major community non-profit effort producing fresh weekly, organic produce for our large local food basket. (Funded, but not yet paying for any staff.)
I can never recover the savings lost. I will never have retirement. I am doing the "moral" thing as a care-giver. I've met many others doing the same. Why isn't this valued or compensated?
7
Quite honestly, it's a terrible mistake to place the highest priority on keeping elderly parents in their homes. MOVE YOUR MOM AND DAD! Don't sacrifice your own life!
We're in the same boat, except that I moved my 85-year-old mother to my town. Her friends are gone, and the other relatives are no help. It doesn't really matter where Mom lives now; in her old house she was only using a bedroom and bath and the kitchen. She still has her favorite things around her, and my friends have welcomed her to participate in community events as much as she is willing to do. It took her only a few weeks to accommodate to her new environment. We also moved my 91-year-old mother-in-law, who is now in assisted living two miles from a daughter and happier than she has been in decades--it was like she had moved to a college dorm.
Mom may well live another ten years. She can just as well live where I am established as where her old community is dwindling. Change will come in either place.
Daughters of the very elderly should NOT GIVE UP THEIR OWN LIVES to help out their parents. The parents CAN be moved, and nearly all of them will do as well or better than they would in their old homes.
We're in the same boat, except that I moved my 85-year-old mother to my town. Her friends are gone, and the other relatives are no help. It doesn't really matter where Mom lives now; in her old house she was only using a bedroom and bath and the kitchen. She still has her favorite things around her, and my friends have welcomed her to participate in community events as much as she is willing to do. It took her only a few weeks to accommodate to her new environment. We also moved my 91-year-old mother-in-law, who is now in assisted living two miles from a daughter and happier than she has been in decades--it was like she had moved to a college dorm.
Mom may well live another ten years. She can just as well live where I am established as where her old community is dwindling. Change will come in either place.
Daughters of the very elderly should NOT GIVE UP THEIR OWN LIVES to help out their parents. The parents CAN be moved, and nearly all of them will do as well or better than they would in their old homes.
3
More men are still usually the major breadwinners and earn more. Women retire earlier at 62 or 65 when compared to men. Men usually work longer as they are the only (or higher) breadwinner. They are also more highly aligned with their profession as it identifies them. As a result, many have no other interests or hobbies and work is all they know. Many men think they will die if they retire.
4
My contract was not renewed for my public school teaching job almost five years ago. I have a Masters Degree and had an excellent work record. I applied for hundreds of jobs and still apply regularly for work, but I am over 50 in a rural county near a major university. Thelocal schools hire new graduates for three years and let them go without tenure because there are always replacements. The only work I have been able to find in five years was two-and-a-half grueling years as an Amazon picker at wages lower than I had received in twenty years. I thought there might be opportunities for advancement, but was disavowed of that notion pretty quickly when I observed that every meeting of management at my particular warehouse seemed to be ninety-five percent white men in their thirties. When I fell and broke my wrist at work, I could no longer maintain the required pace and was fired. My unemployment has run out and I am getting by with extreme austerity and a small home business. Jobs today offer wages that have not kept up with inflation, rigid rules and policies and erratic schedules. It is harder than ever to juggle responsibilities towards aging relatives, grandchildren etc with a job and the low wages don't offer much incentive.Several of my well-educated female friends are languishing in the same boat. Employers who might pay for our education and experience won't hire us. Jobs that will hire us will throw our home lives into chaos for minimal compensation.
15
I see that the cost of child care is being raised a lot in these comments. A big problem with the US (and the world in general) is promoting people to have kids when they can't afford it. I'm not saying that kids should be reserved for the rich but the number of kids you have needs to reflect your financial situation. This wouldn't be a very big problem in other countries (many have mentioned Sweden) since they have excellent policies for working mothers but the US is not a socialist country and it's likely that we will never see those kinds of policies in our (or our children's) lifetime.
I think many more people who are of child-bearing age now are questioning if they even want to have kids, which I think would be a good thing for everyone to reflect. If you're unable to provide a child with a good upbringing (I'm not saying that they need to have iPhones but kids should have proper access to nutritional food, school, extracurricular activities to make them a well-rounded person for society, etc.), then it might be a good idea to rethink kids in the US.
I think many more people who are of child-bearing age now are questioning if they even want to have kids, which I think would be a good thing for everyone to reflect. If you're unable to provide a child with a good upbringing (I'm not saying that they need to have iPhones but kids should have proper access to nutritional food, school, extracurricular activities to make them a well-rounded person for society, etc.), then it might be a good idea to rethink kids in the US.
7
Financial situations can change in a moment due to job loss or illness, for example. I agree that people should put more thought into having children and how many, but we can't see the future to know if our circumstances will change.
3
" ... but we can't see the future to know if our circumstances will change."
However, you should plan for circumstances changing. You only have to look back on the September eleventh attacks to see that. How many families got caught with their main breadwinners dying, many of them with minimal or no insurance? A car accident is just as sudden and can be just as fatal.
However, you should plan for circumstances changing. You only have to look back on the September eleventh attacks to see that. How many families got caught with their main breadwinners dying, many of them with minimal or no insurance? A car accident is just as sudden and can be just as fatal.
3
There are plenty of risk management tools from savings and insurance to having a side job in addition to main career to choosing a stable partner, blueberry.
None of which the subject of this article or many commenters here apparently availed themselves.
Planning and prudence and anticipating worst case scenarios goes a long way toward keeping oneself off the dole and in control.
None of which the subject of this article or many commenters here apparently availed themselves.
Planning and prudence and anticipating worst case scenarios goes a long way toward keeping oneself off the dole and in control.
2
The headline is incorrect. These women have not quit working. They have quit doing paid work, to take on uncompensated jobs like raising children and caring for the sick and elderly.
17
One understated aspect of the economic change of the last few decades is the number of women who don't work because they don't need to do so to make ends meet. With economic inequality, a lot of men are making more than enough money that it makes economic sense for their wives to not work.
It would be great to see the data for women's participation rate broken down by household incomes, so we know how much of the decline comes from the upper middle class and beyond.
It would be great to see the data for women's participation rate broken down by household incomes, so we know how much of the decline comes from the upper middle class and beyond.
4
I was 50 and into my career when I suddenly got laid off. I have an advanced degree, and after a career change years earlier, I felt it was a good opportunity to get back to doing what I really wanted to do. But in the process of looking for work, I experienced what age discrimination and being obsolete felt like. After a few months, my mother had a major stroke, and I dropped everything to go help my rapidly declining father take care of her. As the months and years went by, my full time job became taking care both of them. In the midst of this, my husband found out he had to have heart valve surgery. I have autoimmune disease and a back disability, and after a few years, my own health declined to the point that I no longer could be part of the work force. I am not on disability and feel fortunate that my husband has a good job, and that we are have health insurance coverage under his job. But it was not how I planned things. As I am approaching 60, I try to be productive and contribute in my own way, and I no longer feel I need to justify my being unemployed. Caretaking our family members and ourselves is a role that most of us just have to take on at some point, but it's not one we are usually very well prepared for.
8
This article highlights what all working caregivers suffer from - lack of federal, state, and employer policies to support their multiple responsibilities as a member of society. As a member of the sandwich generation this provides a depressing snap shot of the crumbling systems we have in place to help willing and able members of society succeed in life. I question how I will be able to maintain a career if my aging parents become ill. As the only child, it is without a doubt that I will be their main caregiver. If this is the American Dream my parents came to this country for then it is deeply saddening.
8
And the solution to this reality will not be found with Mr. Trump's policies or his daughter's fantasy concepts of extra time off for women who have recently bore children. Imagine one is in such a pickle, sandwiched by sick parents, a sick spouse or absent spouse and small children, and you find yourself pregnant. For the benefit of the clueless, women who are responsible, use birth control and even sleep with males who use condoms can discover, wow, I'm pregnant! Geeze Louise, abortion is no longer available but, you as a female can select in today's America, 1/25/17, that is . . .suicide, abortion plus prison sentence or give the new child up for adoption.
Let's examine these choices for a minute. Suicide, if successful, you abandon the ones you love, if unsuccessful, jail for an alleged abortion attempt or hospitalization, which you cannot afford. Abortion, good luck with that. Giving the child up for adoption is always an option. Have any of the folks who would advocate for adoption ever deal with children in foster care or who have been adopted? Many children never adjust to having been rejected when they were minutes old or worse. I am afarid that America has no clue that societies'/nations' sustained existence depends upon a humanitarian approach, despite the fact it earns no money for Wall Street and their ilk.
Let's examine these choices for a minute. Suicide, if successful, you abandon the ones you love, if unsuccessful, jail for an alleged abortion attempt or hospitalization, which you cannot afford. Abortion, good luck with that. Giving the child up for adoption is always an option. Have any of the folks who would advocate for adoption ever deal with children in foster care or who have been adopted? Many children never adjust to having been rejected when they were minutes old or worse. I am afarid that America has no clue that societies'/nations' sustained existence depends upon a humanitarian approach, despite the fact it earns no money for Wall Street and their ilk.
11
Can someone explain to me why fathers are not legally required to provide 50% of the child care, or pay for 50% of the child care? From what I understand, if child support is sought and rewarded, the fathers are only acquired to pay "what they can afford". Why is that the case? Raising children is very expensive, why are the woman left holding the bill?
6
Well, you'd think that the need for care within families would be largely taken up by the unemployed male members of the household, but apparently that isn't happening ...
What I do think is consistently missed for the jobs numbers with respect to men, but also some women, is that they are working in the cash-only economy and therefore aren't anxious to highlight their hidden-from-tax income in household surveys and newspaper journalists scouting about for interview subjects.
And that's much of the local trades contractor and sub-contract work, truck/auto and small engine small-shop repairs, and home-based childcare.
What I do think is consistently missed for the jobs numbers with respect to men, but also some women, is that they are working in the cash-only economy and therefore aren't anxious to highlight their hidden-from-tax income in household surveys and newspaper journalists scouting about for interview subjects.
And that's much of the local trades contractor and sub-contract work, truck/auto and small engine small-shop repairs, and home-based childcare.
11
What if there is no male member of the household, unemployed or not? Who is going to take care of the individual'a parents, and her children while she works? The lack of affordable child care is a big part of why women can't find or maintain jobs. Our anemic social safety net cannot provide assistance or enough assistance for elderly parents so the woman can return to work. So many women have to stop working to care for a disabled husband, which then punges the family down the slope of destitution. Medicare does not cover transportation to medical appointments, or home health care. The refusal to fund a robust safety net is costing this country too much in terms of people who want to work, their tax revenue, and any other contributions to society.
3
In the last two years I have paid the following trades and service persons in cash, usually at their request:
Painter, well expert, landscaper, pet sitter, leaf raker/removal person, snow removal crew, informal computer repair person, boat motor mechanic, boat shrinkwrapper, roof repair person, gutter cleaner, small engine (lawnmower, snowblower) repairman, handyman, carpenter, tree trimmer, firewood provider, shrub remover, carpet cleaner, one-time deep cleaning person, seamstress, furniture mover, chimney sweep and probably more that I am forgetting.
This is thousands and thousands of dollars that I suspect are going to be undeclared, untaxed income. Chatting with these people, a lot of them have spouses who are employed (oddly, often as nurses or other health care providers, with good pay and good insurance) and serve as breadwinners, leaving these people free to run their small businesses on the side, often on a part-time or sporadic basis. Would really like to know how many of these payments end up reflected on the family income tax returns. And that's just the trade my small household generates. Multiply that by all the individuals and businesses employing these self-employed people and the total must be in the hundreds of billions.
I think there are many technically "unemployed" people leading some pretty cushy lifestyles.
Painter, well expert, landscaper, pet sitter, leaf raker/removal person, snow removal crew, informal computer repair person, boat motor mechanic, boat shrinkwrapper, roof repair person, gutter cleaner, small engine (lawnmower, snowblower) repairman, handyman, carpenter, tree trimmer, firewood provider, shrub remover, carpet cleaner, one-time deep cleaning person, seamstress, furniture mover, chimney sweep and probably more that I am forgetting.
This is thousands and thousands of dollars that I suspect are going to be undeclared, untaxed income. Chatting with these people, a lot of them have spouses who are employed (oddly, often as nurses or other health care providers, with good pay and good insurance) and serve as breadwinners, leaving these people free to run their small businesses on the side, often on a part-time or sporadic basis. Would really like to know how many of these payments end up reflected on the family income tax returns. And that's just the trade my small household generates. Multiply that by all the individuals and businesses employing these self-employed people and the total must be in the hundreds of billions.
I think there are many technically "unemployed" people leading some pretty cushy lifestyles.
3
If those cash payments aren't declared, the individual is not paying into Social Security and Medicare. If that person gets hurt on the job, there will be no worker's compensation, and the wife's insurance won't pay for any care related to a work injury. That untaxed cash may seem a pretty good deal at the time, but they'll find out later in life that it wasn't such a good deal after all.
3
So the focus when men leave the workforce is how they are skallywags, scoundrels who won't lower themselves to take "women's work," are on drugs, or are just plain lazy.
Women who leave the workforce, on the other hand, deserve sympathy and understanding for the decisions society has forced upon them.
I believe the Times' Public Editor just slapped the paper for a 1950's style story... and here you are back again. "Thank you ma'am, may I have another," perhaps?
Please: Choose sympathy or even condemnation for workforce leavers, as you like, NY Times, but I'd appreciate it without the large side of sexism.
Women who leave the workforce, on the other hand, deserve sympathy and understanding for the decisions society has forced upon them.
I believe the Times' Public Editor just slapped the paper for a 1950's style story... and here you are back again. "Thank you ma'am, may I have another," perhaps?
Please: Choose sympathy or even condemnation for workforce leavers, as you like, NY Times, but I'd appreciate it without the large side of sexism.
9
Read the article again. It says that there has been the assumption that the reason men are not in the work force or looking for a job is due to them being "skallywags, scoundrels who won't lower themselves to take "women's work," are on drugs, or are just plain lazy." Researchers believe that that may not be the whole story regarding men and the workforce. IMO, men who can no longer work get more help from their wives and family members, than a woman in similar circumstances.
1
Of the reasons listed in the article for men to leave the workforce, there is opioid addiction, criminal records, video games, an unwillingness to take "women's work," and disability issues.
I think my description pretty accurately sums up the Times' perspective.
I think my description pretty accurately sums up the Times' perspective.
1
I left my job about six months ago. I worked as a librarian for a little over a decade, with no real job advancement prospects (e.g., a lot of librarian/information professional work is part-time while the work often requires you to have a masters degree). Many of the available jobs are in small towns which can be tricky to navigate if you are LGBTQ or a person of color. You also have to factor in the cost of relocating, especially if you have a spouse who generally earns more. In short, a combination of burnout, a want to explore other work options, and a supportive spouse all factored into my decision to leave the traditional workforce. I see this as a time of transition rather than giving up.
5
I've worked most of my life. I graduated with two degrees in science in the 60's. My only break was when moving due to spousal transfers. Returned to work after 10 years. Took early retirement and graduated with PhD in science after four years of study. Turning 70 and still work part time. The pay is low, the rewards are high. I pray that I remain healthy - Republicans are trying to steal our livelihood and benefits. I marched last Saturday - we've come to far to be walled in, censored, and intimidated. A White House that excels at falsehoods and a president who does not read. Dyslexia?
22
Just a comment on the data presented. Note that those countries with the strongest safety net ALSO have the highest labor participation. So the trope that the stronger the safety the lazier the people just is not true.
57
Exactly, Jude! Also because of the stronger safety net, they are healthier and more satisfied with their lives. Not having to worry about health care and childcare, for example, removes a big source of stress for working parents, which allows them to be more productive.
7
The London School of Economics did a great deal of research on this in 2014 and found the same results!
3
And several of the countries near the top of this list are social democracies which, speaking of lists, are also routinely at the top of those gauging happiness.
2
With every passing year, conservatives gain a little more ground and part of their "success" means continued devaluation of the worker. America's policy, overwhelmingly, is that workers are fodder for producing shareholder benefit, and nothing more. Add to it the GOP's psychotic obsession with a decimated safety net and you have a recipe for the end of empire. People have to matter to somebody in the society if the society is to succeed. And Donald Trump hardly represents anything in the way of a flicker of hope. With that awful man and a complicit Congress at the helm, the U.S. is now on the shoals - more tax cuts for the wealthiest, ever-shrinking support for education and human services, decimation of the environment - and it won't be long before the ship is torn completely asunder. What is it Mr. Trump is so fond of saying - ? Oh yes. "Sad!"
17
Workers have devalued themselves by over-reproducing in the face of dwindling natural resources, advancing, human-replacing technology and globalization of the economy.
Those halcyon 60s and 70s? There were half the number of humans on the planet, lots more fresh water, fuel was cheaper, technology far less advanced. Too bad everyone scoffed at those nutty zero population growth freaks back then, eh?
Soon to be nine billion or 13 billion even, by some estimates, duking it out for scraps. Your children and grandchildren may be grateful to work for $3 an hour and a biscuit.
Those halcyon 60s and 70s? There were half the number of humans on the planet, lots more fresh water, fuel was cheaper, technology far less advanced. Too bad everyone scoffed at those nutty zero population growth freaks back then, eh?
Soon to be nine billion or 13 billion even, by some estimates, duking it out for scraps. Your children and grandchildren may be grateful to work for $3 an hour and a biscuit.
2
I dropped out of the full-time rat race because I got tired of being treated like dirt. I had available other money to live on that I had inherited. Why work if you are constantly being undermined and not being given opportunities because you are female? If you can afford to work part-time, why not do it? I bet there are other women like me out there who are lucky enough to have other sources of income and have stopped working full-time because it is nothing but aggravation.
14
As an early-30s guy, I'd like to add this stuff about guys not wanting to work "because of video games" (or whatever distraction du jour) is baffling to me. My issue is pretty similar to Ms. Stevenson's in that I'm educated (and have worked my share of go-nowhere jobs) but it's just getting to the point of asking, well, "what is the point?" since jobs I can get (not without hassle, mind you) are dead-end or part-time. Is this the improved economy I've been waiting on? I've only known drudgery. Some of society also says "Yo, it's time to start a family!" to which I reply "Ha! With what?" My hypothetical kid(s) deserve a chance like any other. Why did I go to college? I'm liberal arts, but a friend went for engineering and spent 5 years unemployed at home after graduating in 06/07 until his dad's company hired him. There are no "fun" jobs left to pass the time, and the college-grad guys I know who have jobs that let you start a life with regular day-shift schedules and remotely realistic pay are refusing to move on to further develop their careers, or in some cases, simply can't because competition is still too fierce for the next step. Video games and other distractions don't change the fact that job quality is a joke. You know what's keeping me from those? Nothing in particular, and especially not video games. Just having savings and not wanting to be miserable. Currently applying for *sigh* grad school. Leave Mario alone. Cheers.
11
so if they stop working how do they feed themselves?
I have heard that there are provisions [in SS or medicaid] where well-off enough people get 'paid cash' to look after relatives -- and that money is not even taxable. So if this lady quit a paying job where she was taxed, and got one which pays about as much or more tax-free, it is a smart choice.
I have heard that there are provisions [in SS or medicaid] where well-off enough people get 'paid cash' to look after relatives -- and that money is not even taxable. So if this lady quit a paying job where she was taxed, and got one which pays about as much or more tax-free, it is a smart choice.
1
As someone who deals with information from and about Social Security, Medicaid, etc. I have never heard of such a thing. In Texas there was a program, maybe still is, where a relative can get paid to care for a family member, in the role of a home health care worker, and the caregiver gets paid like any other home health care worker, which is peanuts, and no benefits. My contact with potential caregivers are, generally, low-income and who would be working a minimum wage job elsewhere. These families do not gain any financial advantage from this arrangement, only the possible greater comfort gained by the individual being cared for by someone they know.
6
I made a big mistake in grad school. I didn't work in my field, other than completely the required internship. When I graduated I was 53, had a 3.97 GPA, lots of student loan debt...and no job. I tell everyone going to grad school to get some experience, ANY experience, so that your resume doesn't look as pathetic as mine. I was in such a tearing hurry to get through grad school and get a job that I neglected, as did my "advisor" at school, to consider how unemployable I would become without having a minute of PAID experience.
9
I apologise for sounding unsympathetic and lack in empathy but presumably you worked between your undergrad degree and going to grad school. Otherwise 53 is a long time from high school to complete both your undergrad and grad degrees.
I think you may have suffered from implicit age discrimination also. That doesn't exclude you from finding a job, just makes it harder.
I think you may have suffered from implicit age discrimination also. That doesn't exclude you from finding a job, just makes it harder.
6
https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_table_303.htm
BLS Civilian labor force participation rate by age, gender, race and ethnicity.
BLS reports two years ago a 56% labor participation rate for women over 16 vs about a 75% labor participation rate for women by your NYT chart.
Most EU nations and professional economists use labor participation rates for monetary and fiscal policy purposes. US politicians generally use employment rates with msm overwhelmingly denying the existence of labor participation rates.
I am a male feminist sympathizer who was the first in the US to enable/finance disadvantaged ancestry and women in trades banned by the National Labor Relations enforcement of collective bargaining agreements. As long as I could hold off federal and state judge seniority clause rulings since the 1964 Civil Rights Act, "male only" jobs for women were secure.
Since the Carter/Volker and Reagan/Volker cleansing of SMEs in the US with up to 17% US bond rates income inequality increased while marriages and affordibility of children decreased -- in large and small cities alike.
Maybe Modern Monetary Theory combined with unfunded federal employee benefits will appreciate the US$ and cause labor participation rates to drop.
Having two opposing governments fosters fragmentation of parties and greater income inequalities.
BLS Civilian labor force participation rate by age, gender, race and ethnicity.
BLS reports two years ago a 56% labor participation rate for women over 16 vs about a 75% labor participation rate for women by your NYT chart.
Most EU nations and professional economists use labor participation rates for monetary and fiscal policy purposes. US politicians generally use employment rates with msm overwhelmingly denying the existence of labor participation rates.
I am a male feminist sympathizer who was the first in the US to enable/finance disadvantaged ancestry and women in trades banned by the National Labor Relations enforcement of collective bargaining agreements. As long as I could hold off federal and state judge seniority clause rulings since the 1964 Civil Rights Act, "male only" jobs for women were secure.
Since the Carter/Volker and Reagan/Volker cleansing of SMEs in the US with up to 17% US bond rates income inequality increased while marriages and affordibility of children decreased -- in large and small cities alike.
Maybe Modern Monetary Theory combined with unfunded federal employee benefits will appreciate the US$ and cause labor participation rates to drop.
Having two opposing governments fosters fragmentation of parties and greater income inequalities.
2
It seems the more we talk about our differences, the greater they become. Does anyone have any idea where this is going to end? If it ends up badly I guess we'll have only ourselves to blame for talking about it so much.
1
In 2009 I was laid off from Microsoft after 12 years of employment. Since then I've worked a total of 2.5 years at two large tech companies, but I have not been offered a full time position. It's been three years since I've worked last. I lean on my network of employed colleagues but still no offer and few leads. It's rare to get an interview (two last year), rare to hear from a recruiter, and even rare to get an auto-generated thanks we'll review your application.
After one interview, I was told I wasn't enthusiastic enough. What does professional enthusiasm look like? I did my homework, I asked questions about the company's plans and customers, I answered scenarios correctly, I demonstrated skills from the job description, etc. Was my lack of enthusiasm simply code for you are too old?
Employed friends don't want to hear about my job search nor my financial challenges. I've exhausted my unemployment benefits, run through savings, and sold my home. I am thankful to have found a spouse who can afford to support both of us.
I still look at job postings and craft my application/resume/cover letter when it's something I want, however, I am seriously disheartened that I will find comparable employment. Ever.
After one interview, I was told I wasn't enthusiastic enough. What does professional enthusiasm look like? I did my homework, I asked questions about the company's plans and customers, I answered scenarios correctly, I demonstrated skills from the job description, etc. Was my lack of enthusiasm simply code for you are too old?
Employed friends don't want to hear about my job search nor my financial challenges. I've exhausted my unemployment benefits, run through savings, and sold my home. I am thankful to have found a spouse who can afford to support both of us.
I still look at job postings and craft my application/resume/cover letter when it's something I want, however, I am seriously disheartened that I will find comparable employment. Ever.
21
HN Gal, my situation is nearly identical to yours: worked for large global organization 15yrs, great reviews/raises and 2yrs ago, my job was downsized and sent overseas. Began job search while still receiving severance pay. I even decided to apply for a lower-level job than the position I had, thinking I'd be well-qualified (but not over-). Wrong. They look at my history and previous salary. Even when I tell them I don't expect it to be salary matched, i'm completely flexible, I don't even get a call back or 2nd interview. Each time, I've found out they hired younger people, many of them with less experience than I have, some just starting their first professional position.
So I've got to believe it IS age, what else could it be? Unfortunately, I am in that 'gap' period: too young to retire, too old (apparently)to be considered for new jobs. I've been volunteering at a non-profit, just to keep my experience sharp and give back to the community. But I'm living on savings and running out of $$. Oh...and paying out of pocket for by ACA insurance too!
The world certainly has changed for our generation. Gone are the days of a 30+ year career, retire at 55 and get a gold watch. But even when we try to adapt, the business world won't let us. Sigh.
So I've got to believe it IS age, what else could it be? Unfortunately, I am in that 'gap' period: too young to retire, too old (apparently)to be considered for new jobs. I've been volunteering at a non-profit, just to keep my experience sharp and give back to the community. But I'm living on savings and running out of $$. Oh...and paying out of pocket for by ACA insurance too!
The world certainly has changed for our generation. Gone are the days of a 30+ year career, retire at 55 and get a gold watch. But even when we try to adapt, the business world won't let us. Sigh.
8
I am sorry, NH, for your difficulties. From my personal experiences, and my observations of others, 50 years old seems to be the cut-off point. It doesn't seem to matter how skilled you are, how well you get along with older co-workers or how enthusiastic you are. Try the non-profit world. There are many types of non-profits; there might be something that interests you. I have found that non-profits are a lot more flexible in terms of age, gender, disability, etc. The pay may not be as high as in the private sector, but it can be more rewarding.
5
I agree with Anna: women don't stop working, they simply get paid for one job, and don't get paid (in money) for the other. Society places a monetary value on one, and not the other. Ask any mother what she would prefer, when it comes to childcare, and most would likely say, "I'd rather care for my own children;" but the balance of the costs of childcare when the mother must work are huge. Mothers who stay at home with their children will likely not have health benefits (with the current administration), and see their personal future employment capital plummet, no matter how many degrees they have. The system is ridiculous.
16
@Paula - Not to mention the stay at home mother's lower contributions to a retirement and/or Social Security. This leaves them in a precarious financial situation once they retire. We already know how much divorce negatively affects women's finances.
8
The work world of today is very different from what it was even ten years ago. Then it would’ve been unusual to have multiple jobs within a short span of time, but now employers see you as temporary “collaborators” on a “project.” Perhaps employers could do better by their employees, but perhaps they don’t have to.
5
No, ten years ago was 2007. The "gig economy" was already underway by then. All the negative trends that people are mentioning in these comments were already there.
Women quit working because employers make it impossible for them to work and care for family. I am fortunate to have a flexible job in which I work from home full-time, and it enables me to be there for my young children. If I didn't have that, I'd be out of the work force too even though I have two master's degrees.
10
This is a feel good article allowing the reader to vent frustration and anger. Job well done.
I was hoping this article would have more substance along with that validation. But it provides only hand-waving arguments and somewhat restrained ranting.
The NYTimes should do another article with facts based on research, and objective analysis. Occupational gender inequality is much too important an issue to address in a feel-good article.
some substance about why women quit working. This is an important and complex question that the author only speculates about.
I was hoping this article would have more substance along with that validation. But it provides only hand-waving arguments and somewhat restrained ranting.
The NYTimes should do another article with facts based on research, and objective analysis. Occupational gender inequality is much too important an issue to address in a feel-good article.
some substance about why women quit working. This is an important and complex question that the author only speculates about.
3
I don't know that this article is really pointing out that, if you have children and a low paying job, working can cost more money than not working. Ms. Stevens is receiving unemployment insurance and food stamps, which she would not receive if she were making $40K a year. She's also not paying taxes. When you factor in childcare and eldercare costs and transportation to and from work and daycare, she might be worse off. And probably settling for low quality care. It's not about whether a job is beneath you, which is a frankly a lousy attitude, in my opinion. It's that low paying jobs can often be a futile struggle. By not providing certain kinds of public services, the government is creating a "welfare state."
13
Unemployment Insurance is taxed as income .
3
Some people are worse off by working, believe it or not. I remember a co-worker who made that calculation and broke down crying. After recently leaving an abusive relationship, she really did not want to go on welfare, but her daughter was starting get in trouble after school. She decided to stick it out a little longer. At some point I moved on to something else, so I don't know if she finally gave up.
4
The idea that she is over qualified for work can cause her argument to veer into the unhelpful territory of "so you think you're to good to ___". More helpful might be a mathematical exploration into her gaining another unpaid role with high hourly demands. If her mother requires care that can range from minimum wage to the average homecare worker's hourly rate through an agency (say $20), then any job she take must be that rate plus the cost of transportaion to the job, clothing, etc. Remove the feelings around the motivation and you can have a real converaation about how to change the math. Also, change the language to reflect that she is still working, and you more accurately describe the issue.
8
You wanna work, you might have to settle for just any job. (and it used to be easier with lots of temp agencies!) PhDs now work as adjuncts for rather poor salaries in many cases... because they can't get a tenure track job and won't get the credits that might qualify them to teach in the public school system. (In any case teaching in the public schools requires a different skill set.) People won't acquire the skills ( e.g.Office xxxx) which might enable them to get work. I remember spending hours practicing typing and in those days short hand. No, it's not easy at all. I esp. can sympathize with people who are insomniacs for whatever reason and find it really hard to preform well much of the time. And once you are over 65 -- forget it. Altho I know two 80 year olds who work at the local Kroger and enjoy it.
3
Here is a major problem the Social Security ticket to work is anything but! Especially for higher earners that might also have another private disability or corporate disability that is also dependent on one still receiving Social security disability payments.
Here is an example, even if you made $120,000 year or $250,000 year the maximum in Social Security Disability benefits you can get is approx $2,400 mo. As a top earner and then minor children can get 50% of this until they graduate from high school or turn 19 with a waiver. Most higher earners wisely have a supplemental plan that requires them to have qualified and remain qualified for SSI to get this policy. Ussualy a small fraction of the amount.
It takes most people 18 months to 30 months to even get approved for Social security disability. Yes, many of the undereducated former middle class middle age left unemployed turned to disability when their jobs left. This caused the rest of us who genuinely are either sick or disabled to be stuck in this morass.
MEdicare has a two year waiting period after you became eligible for SSID, to became eligible. Prior to ACA, so many applied to SSID for insurance because they were excluded by preexisting.
Many on SSID would like to work but can not work fulltime or any more than PRN ( otherwise when I feel like I can get up, Pain is weather dependent) can only earn up to $800 for 8 mos. then you are pushed off. let people work when they can still collect and pay taxes.
Here is an example, even if you made $120,000 year or $250,000 year the maximum in Social Security Disability benefits you can get is approx $2,400 mo. As a top earner and then minor children can get 50% of this until they graduate from high school or turn 19 with a waiver. Most higher earners wisely have a supplemental plan that requires them to have qualified and remain qualified for SSI to get this policy. Ussualy a small fraction of the amount.
It takes most people 18 months to 30 months to even get approved for Social security disability. Yes, many of the undereducated former middle class middle age left unemployed turned to disability when their jobs left. This caused the rest of us who genuinely are either sick or disabled to be stuck in this morass.
MEdicare has a two year waiting period after you became eligible for SSID, to became eligible. Prior to ACA, so many applied to SSID for insurance because they were excluded by preexisting.
Many on SSID would like to work but can not work fulltime or any more than PRN ( otherwise when I feel like I can get up, Pain is weather dependent) can only earn up to $800 for 8 mos. then you are pushed off. let people work when they can still collect and pay taxes.
6
It is curious that the Democrats and Obama wanted to lift the minimum wage, yet the American people decided to vote Trump into office. If the 0.1% were a little more fair with money, we wouldn't have these problems, but the growing inequality will only make things worse.
11
Correction: The American people did not decide to vote for Trump. About 25% of eligible voters voted for Trump, which means that their percentage in the population at large is much smaller. Due to quirks of the electoral college, Trump ended up winning the election.
Unfortunately, a certain segment of the population continues to vote for candidates who will not provide the relief they are looking for, and, on the contrary, those candidates continue to erode what little they do have.
Unfortunately, a certain segment of the population continues to vote for candidates who will not provide the relief they are looking for, and, on the contrary, those candidates continue to erode what little they do have.
5
This woman is caring for two small children and her elderly mother in poor health. Dare we ask where are the men in their lives? Why isn't the father of those kids helping out? Are there no brother or uncles to help with the aging mother? Will we forever be in denial that raising children is a two-person job and going it alone, even for an educated woman, often means poverty? No, I am not shaming unwed or divorced mothers, just wondering why the father of the kids can't support them while she focuses on caring for her elderly mother, or vice-versa. Why can't the father provide child care to free up her time to work and get her mother settled? If a male widower was left with two small children and an elderly mother in poor health, we'd recognize that he could not care for all three dependents and also earn enough to support them on his own. But dare suggest a woman can't do all this alone and somehow that's "anti-feminist."
56
There have always been single parents. Men died in war. Women died in childbirth. And some people have always been irresponsible deadbeats. What's antifeminist is to insist that there should be no social support for the responsible people because providing one might extend into scaffolding that allows couples to leave their default gender roles.
2
Rachel: You ask "Why isn't the father of those kids helping out?"
The article: "she has been paying the bills with ... child support from a former partner"
The academic researchers have found that when a judge orders a father to pay the mother, the father's non-monetary contributions to the child will be reduced proportionally. The more he is ordered to pay, the less time he will spend with the child, for example, and the more he is ordered to pay involuntarily the less he will pay voluntarily. There is some research from Denmark in this area, using a data set of all separated parents in that country. See "Parental Responses to Child Support Obligations: Evidence from Administrative Data" by Rossin-Slater and Wust, for example (http://econ.ucsb.edu/~mrossin/RossinSlater_Wust_Apr2016.pdf ).
(I haven't seen any research regarding the behavior of mothers ordered to pay child support. There may not be enough of them to generate a statistically significant sample.)
The article: "she has been paying the bills with ... child support from a former partner"
The academic researchers have found that when a judge orders a father to pay the mother, the father's non-monetary contributions to the child will be reduced proportionally. The more he is ordered to pay, the less time he will spend with the child, for example, and the more he is ordered to pay involuntarily the less he will pay voluntarily. There is some research from Denmark in this area, using a data set of all separated parents in that country. See "Parental Responses to Child Support Obligations: Evidence from Administrative Data" by Rossin-Slater and Wust, for example (http://econ.ucsb.edu/~mrossin/RossinSlater_Wust_Apr2016.pdf ).
(I haven't seen any research regarding the behavior of mothers ordered to pay child support. There may not be enough of them to generate a statistically significant sample.)
1
Did you read the article? She is receiving child support as well as family support. Why do you assume that she isn't?
I am an attorney and mother of two, but I don't suspect this to last long. The guilt of not seeing my toddlers until 8 pm is extremely depressing. I would rather live on a budget and do motherhood right. "Daycare for all" would be good in some ways, but bad in others-- and I don't think most women would accept it, anyway. There is no replacing a mother, and deep down, we all know it.
It would be nice to see some sort of incentive for companies to offer more part-time jobs, perhaps even some sort of internship for moms transitioning back into the workforce after raising their kids. Ivanka, are you reading this?
It would be nice to see some sort of incentive for companies to offer more part-time jobs, perhaps even some sort of internship for moms transitioning back into the workforce after raising their kids. Ivanka, are you reading this?
6
These 2 quotes are the crux of this issue:
-- “I was trying to work and help her, but the job wasn’t flexible.” (Ms. Stevenson)
-- “If I could find something flexible, I could work part time,” she said. (Ms. Pinkston
Too many people find themselves stuck in all-or-nothing work situations where they either work in an on-site, full-time job, or they can't work at all. But thankfully, flexible work options are growing, with more employers supporting things like part-time professional jobs, full-time work-from-home arrangements, flexible scheduling, and many other flexible options.
But there is still a LOT of room for growth, which is what we focus on at FlexJobs and 1 Million for Work Flexibility--encouraging individuals, organizations, companies, and government agencies to support, adopt, and promote flexible work options wherever possible.
In the cases of Ms. Stevenson and Ms. Pinkston, where they are acting as caregivers for others and for themselves, flexible work options are a must, and it's disheartening that their employers were unable to offer them flexible work options.
For caregivers, people with health issues or disabilities, working parents, students, people at or near retirement, military spouses, those living in rural or economically disadvantaged areas, people who need or want to live in multiple locations throughout the year, and for anyone seeking a better integration between their work and personal lives, work flexibility is the key!
-- “I was trying to work and help her, but the job wasn’t flexible.” (Ms. Stevenson)
-- “If I could find something flexible, I could work part time,” she said. (Ms. Pinkston
Too many people find themselves stuck in all-or-nothing work situations where they either work in an on-site, full-time job, or they can't work at all. But thankfully, flexible work options are growing, with more employers supporting things like part-time professional jobs, full-time work-from-home arrangements, flexible scheduling, and many other flexible options.
But there is still a LOT of room for growth, which is what we focus on at FlexJobs and 1 Million for Work Flexibility--encouraging individuals, organizations, companies, and government agencies to support, adopt, and promote flexible work options wherever possible.
In the cases of Ms. Stevenson and Ms. Pinkston, where they are acting as caregivers for others and for themselves, flexible work options are a must, and it's disheartening that their employers were unable to offer them flexible work options.
For caregivers, people with health issues or disabilities, working parents, students, people at or near retirement, military spouses, those living in rural or economically disadvantaged areas, people who need or want to live in multiple locations throughout the year, and for anyone seeking a better integration between their work and personal lives, work flexibility is the key!
2
The sad truth is that women have to make hard choices about working versus staying at home with children. I have no regrets about staying home with my children, especially since one of my daughters has special needs. However, getting back into the work force has been impossible even with a college degree. Someone told me that it's easier for an ex-convict to get a job than a stay-at-home mom and I believe it. But how do we expect to rise as a society, when their is so little value for childcare? Our children and families need to come first.
5
Your children and families need to come first to YOU. Others have different values and priorities. I'd rather my wages be confiscated to help other species and ameliorate human damage to the environment, than to facilitate the production of more human beings on a teeming, overbuilt, polluted planet. Don't tell the rest of us what our priorities SHOULD be. Thanks.
3
The reasons for women leaving the paid workforce are not discussed enough not only because of straightforward sexism, but because to address them would mean providing more comprehensive healthcare including home healthcare, as well as more childcare benefits. And a large part of the political establishment does not want to admit that there are any problems in those areas, except possibly for a supposed need to provide less, rather than more services (many of those people still cling to an ideal of women only providing unpaid work in the home as part of a heterosexual marriage, although of course they wink at women doing low paid jobs outside the home when they or their contributors find it convenient).
3
My undearly departed was terrible; however I had the economic wherewithal to to take a year off with one child and six months with the other. I could have stayed home but I returned to teaching in order regain my independence. I really feel sorry for many young teachers who are only allowed six weeks of unpaid maternity leave. It must be difficult leaving a brand new baby in somebody else's care. Indeed our nation is regressive in providing paid family leave.
1
It seems to me there is a missing part of the equation here. For centuries, the majority of women stayed home to care for children and run the household. In the last century that changed, which I think was a positive thing. However, what we are essentially taking about is a near-doubling of the paid labor force, which was fine when there were plenty of jobs to be had. Now we have twice the number of people competing for a shrinking pool of adequate jobs, and women who don't work outside the home are referred to as "missing" from the labor force, whereas decades ago they were not. While some men have taken up the unpaid but crucial work of childcare and household duties, they are few. If men do take up traditional women's work, will they no longer be considered "missing", but fulfilling necessary unpaid roles? Has the two-earner household been a blip, and are we simply returning to a historical norm of one-earner households, but with the worker being of either gender?
5
15% of students have some sort of disability.
I am very grateful to my circumstances that I can work less, to advocate for, and teach my child. I don't have to watch him be crushed and become despondent in a school district that feels that it is not their responsibility to provide him with anything nearing the same standard of education as other children, though he is simply a bright child with dyslexia and ADHD.
I don't have to give up my hopes for his future self-sufficency -- though I had to give up my hopes for mine. I know many accomplished women who have made this choice.
I am very grateful to my circumstances that I can work less, to advocate for, and teach my child. I don't have to watch him be crushed and become despondent in a school district that feels that it is not their responsibility to provide him with anything nearing the same standard of education as other children, though he is simply a bright child with dyslexia and ADHD.
I don't have to give up my hopes for his future self-sufficency -- though I had to give up my hopes for mine. I know many accomplished women who have made this choice.
5
We are extremely fortunate to be in the 43.4% tax bracket based on my earnings alone. This year, my wife was looking for jobs asking 60+ hours/week for annual salaries in the ~$80,000 range. She faced the 43.4% federal income tax and the 7.65% Social Security and Medicare taxes, for a marginal tax rate of 51.05%. (Our state has no income tax.) If she worked, we would also have to pay for childcare, which is around $12,000 in our area. We concluded that it made no sense for her to work 60+ hours/week for a net pay of $27,000. She's leaving the work force because Uncle Sam forced her out.
5
Yes. I scaled back my freelance business (thus putting some subcontractors out of work) because I tired of paying nearly 50 cents on the dollar in taxes. Most of which go to fund people who have made different reproductive and marital choices than I.
3
You were willing to reduce your own net income by the 50% not paid in taxes in order to avoid paying the 50% you did pay in taxes?
2
Please thank your wife for creating a job opening for mine. We looked at somewhat similar facts and decided that an additional "$27,000 a year" (your figure) net to our family was better than a net benefit of zero, especially as my earnings are quite sufficient as it would appear are yours.
1
Economists across the political spectrum have long recognized that when women participate in the work force, *everyone* benefits. This is encouraged in Third World countries as an effective way to improve the health and well-being of children and cut the threat of conflict and war. It works. But it seems to only go so far and apply to only certain countries and groups. Oddly, the US is in the "only go so far" category.
1
I was un/underemployed from 2009-2015. I am an single, older IT professional but I would have taken most anything - and did, but no matter what I did, no matter how good my resume, hair dye, business attire, interview techniques, I could not land a permanent position. I hung onto every unemployment check praying for more extensions. It was looking like I would have to give up my apartment; people were offering me their spare bedrooms and couches. In 2011 a large bank hired me and kept extending my contract--I got a year out of that one. My manager was a woman around my age who worked her way up though the ranks. She was a wonderful mentor and I am undyingly grateful to her. Then from 2012 to 2015 I didn't work until she called me again for another contract. I'm still here, coming up against the 18 month contract limitation. They say they *might* hire us contractors on full-time, but I probably wont know until the end of the contract. If I don't get it I will not look again. I will be eligible for Social Security, provided it still exists.
8
I had a contract job in 2012 that offered me a position. I declined because the salary was pathetically low. However, I told the HR rep that I would continue to work as a contract employee. I was told that there was a limit - 18 months/2 years - allowed to work as a contract employee. I called my state DOL and asked about such a limitation. In sum, I was told it was hooey. I subsequently advised the HR rep in re same. She said then just stay on as a contract employee. Check with your states DOL about the limitation. Unfortunately, though, I subsequently received a notice from my health insurance company stating that my coverage was to be terminated because it did not meet the ACA requirements. My insurance was going to go from 350 a month to 850. I was then forced to leave the contract job I enjoyed to take some poopie job with a salary much higher than the one offered by the contract employer. Oh, my hourly rate on the contract job was pretty good and it was nice not having any middle management morons pushing my buttons.
2
You might not think of me as someone missing from the workforce as I am close to the traditional age of retirement. But I am healthy, very experienced, and in a high-demand field. I could work until I die if I wanted. But I don't want, and it's not because I have feathered a comfortable retirement nest, because I haven't, I have a financial incentive to work longer. My exit from the workforce is imminent because I have had a lifetime of gender discrimination at work and simply can't stand it any longer.
12
I balanced family and a demanding job, in a business that was being killed by the internet, as my mother was dying. I eventually resigned to be her full time caregiver, and found after her death, one year later, that no one wanted to hire a 46-year-old woman.
Most of my work contacts were being laid off, all of us had advanced degrees and impeccable credentials for our field, and everyone was looking for comparable work and pay in a loosely related field.
No one wants to hire a middle-aged woman who is making a career change after a year of "not working."
Fast forward 16 years and I'm self-employed, but earning far less than I once did, and if I add in lost benefits and employer matches to my 401k I'm making a small fraction of my former pay. I'm counted as working, but the reality is more complex.
Most of my work contacts were being laid off, all of us had advanced degrees and impeccable credentials for our field, and everyone was looking for comparable work and pay in a loosely related field.
No one wants to hire a middle-aged woman who is making a career change after a year of "not working."
Fast forward 16 years and I'm self-employed, but earning far less than I once did, and if I add in lost benefits and employer matches to my 401k I'm making a small fraction of my former pay. I'm counted as working, but the reality is more complex.
9
Why I quit job #1? I was working full time with two under-3 years olds at home, yet even after working voluntarily for 4 additional weeks into my permitted pre-birth leave, my boss scolded me for being 20 minutes late on one monthly time clock.
Why I quit job #2? The bosses in my company were trying to push me into management, sent me jetting off to many countries without time compensation, yet would not allow me to work slightly reduced hours to spend time with my two small children.
Why I quit job #3? My son needed to be taken to sax & soccer lessons, my daughter to athletics, and I got sick of having to sneak out of meetings to make sure that my kids could pursue their interests.
Job #4 was freelancing -- very lucrative but also stressful and probably left me even less time for my kids.
Signed, Totally burned out, but the kids turned out fine
Why I quit job #2? The bosses in my company were trying to push me into management, sent me jetting off to many countries without time compensation, yet would not allow me to work slightly reduced hours to spend time with my two small children.
Why I quit job #3? My son needed to be taken to sax & soccer lessons, my daughter to athletics, and I got sick of having to sneak out of meetings to make sure that my kids could pursue their interests.
Job #4 was freelancing -- very lucrative but also stressful and probably left me even less time for my kids.
Signed, Totally burned out, but the kids turned out fine
7
Reason #47 why women should be able to completely control how many children they have, without interference from politicians. Women know that the heavy responsibilities of child-rearing, which fall disproportionately (in many cases, completely) on women, are going to cascade through the rest of their lives.
17
It's difficult to square the numbers cited in this article, as well as other articles that report record numbers of people out of the work force--many due to giving up hope of finding a job, with the official tally of 4.7% overall unemployment. While we're busy patting ourselves on the back for "low" unemployment numbers I think the real story is much more grim and may be 2x to 4x the official numbers.
2
Too many lower-paid service industry jobs are for rent-seeking outfits. They don't want self-employed independents because that cuts into the CEO, other corporate execs, and franchise owners' skim from which they bring negligible to no benefits to the table, while the actual producer is the lowest-compensated. Financialization has been the ruination of our country for the many while very lucrative for the few.
5
I'm not Disillusioned David. I'm his wife. I'm a clinical social worker who worked for 21 years in clinical and academic settings, with a specialty in working with people who live with schizophrenia and related disorders. In 2009, I went from an exempt staff position to a fixed term faculty position. I provided treatment, developed specialized clinical programs, wrote grants to foundations, got funding, engaged with state policy makers, and did all I could to make things better in our crumbling mental health system. I lost my funding last summer -- from a state government contract -- after "challenging state authority." I filed for unemployment in July, and set up my own business. I am making a little money, but not nearly what I used to. I teach one advanced practice course at UNC -- and earn $3000 as an adjunct. When I met with the employment counselor as required to receive unemployment benefits, she told me I should look for a job with a lower salary. I had already put a lower salary on the form than what I used to make. I have one child in college and one in high school. I'm still searching for work -- but with my highly specialized work background, it's been hard. I've had to withdraw retirement funds to stay afloat. My husband has also been laid off three times since 2008. I thought my job was secure -- 21 years in one place, able to bring in independent funding, and won multiple awards for my public service. I interviewed for a job last week and I'm hopeful.
10
My boyfriend's mother works for a day camp on Long Island where she babysits infants and toddlers (under age 2) for $2,500 a month. Imagine that! $2,500 a month to have someone change diapers and feed a baby.
My brother and his wife live in NJ where they send their 2-year old to daycare twice a week at almost $1,000 a month.
As a working woman with no kids yet, it frightens me to think that in a few years when I hopefully have kids of my own, I'm looking at at least $5,000 a month to send two kids to day care. That's $60,000 a year of post-tax income. I barely even make that much money. Never mind paying a mortgage/rent.
So who knows, in a few years, I or my husband may end staying at home because paying that much money for child care doesn't make sense mathematically.
My brother and his wife live in NJ where they send their 2-year old to daycare twice a week at almost $1,000 a month.
As a working woman with no kids yet, it frightens me to think that in a few years when I hopefully have kids of my own, I'm looking at at least $5,000 a month to send two kids to day care. That's $60,000 a year of post-tax income. I barely even make that much money. Never mind paying a mortgage/rent.
So who knows, in a few years, I or my husband may end staying at home because paying that much money for child care doesn't make sense mathematically.
9
Dropping out of the workforce makes even less sense mathematically. You could be working another 50 years -- don't spoil it because you'd have five years or so hardship. Start saving now for daycare. Live on your husband's salary, bank yours and it will mount up fast.
Or, if you choose not to, don't complain to the rest of us how your career got derailed by being a SAHM.
Or, if you choose not to, don't complain to the rest of us how your career got derailed by being a SAHM.
3
Age discrimination plays an important role in driving women out of the workplace. Women are victims of age discrimination at least a decade earlier than men. Older women also suffer among the highest rates of workplace bullying. Extreme workplace stress contributes to short term and long term illness. Many women accept underemployment or low-paid temp work. Some are forced to "retire" as soon as they are able, causing them to suffer a decrease in their monthly Social Security benefit for the rest of their lives. Women are twice as likely to be in poverty in their old age. Patricia G. Barnes, author of Betrayed: The Legalization of Age Discrimination in the Workplace.
15
My story ties into health insurance. When I worked, most women on the lower rungs, where I was in spite of having a BA, were not offered health insurance as part of their employment package. It was assumed that we were covered by our husbands' health insurance through their employers, and for many, this was the case. If we weren't married, we were out of luck. I was divorced, so I didn't have a husband's health insurance to rely on in order to get medical care. I also didn't make enough money to pay for health insurance on my own, was disqualified for health insurance because of preexisting medical conditions, and I made too much money to qualify for Medicaid. Since I couldn't afford to see a doctor when I needed to, my health issues got worse and worse, until I finally wasn't able to work at all and qualified for SSDI and Medicare.
17
I'm 56 and would love to quit working but since we live in the only industrialized nation without universal health care, (and a non working spouse with health issues) there's no way.
13
Don't forget our lack of universal mortgage payment coverage, universal rent coverage, universal kids clothing and activities, universal food... seriously? We have made the mythical universal health care the excuse for every gap in our lives. Universal Single Payer Healthcare CANNOT work in this country due to the pure size of our population. Add to that the fact that we do not have a prime workforce large enough to support the population that is most in need of health care and it further proves the point that a Universal Single Payer Healthcare System is an impossibility for our country. Look at Social Security as an example... the model worked fine when the average duration of benefits paid was less than 15 years and the ratio of payers vs beneficiaries was over 10:1. Now that the average duration of benefits is over 20 years (closer to 25 yrs) and the payer to beneficiary ratio is less than 7:1, we see the inevitable decline of solvency and sustainability of Social Security.
2
I read in another NYT article today that corporations act as if "children don't exist".
It's true!
For most men running America, children *don't* exist.
DJT: "I won’t do anything to take care of them. I’ll supply funds and she’ll take care of the kids."
It's true!
For most men running America, children *don't* exist.
DJT: "I won’t do anything to take care of them. I’ll supply funds and she’ll take care of the kids."
17
This voluntary flight from the working world is simply setting the stage for another entitlement program for those who chose to quit their jobs. The undercurrent argument for the government to provide a living wage to all adults, even if they choose not to work, is growing louder and louder. Along with college tuition for all, look for this giveaway to be the next big Democrat talking point and appeal to the voters they have lost in recent elections. It's all about keeping the downtrodden dependent on big government.
4
Well, given that big business hasn't been stepping up to the plate with jobs, exactly what are workers supposed to do?
3
I'm surprised by the tone of the comments here. I don't think it's a bad thing if 18% of women (or 11% of men) are out of the job market. That strikes me as potentially a wonderful thing! Best case scenario these people are engaging in worthwhile activities that they love, whether it's caring for family or playing in a band, say. Hopefully more and more of us, with automation coming, can have time for all the people and things we love. The purpose of life is not only to be a worker. Ms. Stevenson says she has been paying bills with family help and food stamps, I think. If that is what she wants to do, I don't begrudge her that. Maybe what we need is a universal basic income so people aren't arguing over who is getting a handful of food stamps. Also, it saddens me to see so many people talk about children as the mother's "choice." Even if we do have too many people in the world, we need some children and they are our connection to the future. I don't want to see the US bring in daycare because I think the best and most fun arrangement for everyone is to have parents or relatives care for the child as much as possible. Maybe a universal basic income (even if very small) could help allow more stay-at-home parents (and then resentful co-workers wouldn't always be picking up the slack). Or, at least, maybe help grandma retire at fifty and help out a little.
3
Where would that "basic income" come from?
3
I think it could be an entitlement like social security but for everyone. I've been reading about this recently. But then, yeah, I basically live in a socialist country compared to the US. Even in Canada, where I live, it's pretty hard for most younger folks -- a lot of taxes, houses VERY expensive. And then it seems most middle class young people are strapped and working long hours. We don't have daycare or short hours here like they do in France. My husband and I have been able to have me stay home with our kids by planning from the beginning (no school debt, saved my entire salary while working) but a lot of women don't know they will want to stay home (or need to). It just seems really sad that so many people are angry (I see it here). I know this anger drove Trump's win. Rather than fight globalization, maybe it's time to consider a little ease, a little taxation for benefits? I used to be totally conservative but now I want more of a Swedish lifestyle. And I really think work is not all it's cut out to be, either. And lastly, the baby boomers got it easy because they had lots of siblings and few kids (demographic dividend). This generation has lots of old folks to care for -- I started caring (some) for the first set (great aunt and uncle) at thirty-two.
2
The issue of underemployment is impacting the entire economy. My wife and I both have higher degrees and were living a very comfortable life, She chose not to work once we became parents, preferring to raise the kids. Unfortunately I lost my job and was unemployed for a year. Fortunately we had savings and so were able to get by. I eventually found a job but at a lower salary and in a much higher cost of living area. Again, we consider ourselves fortunate, but live in constant fear of me losing my job again. My wife works part-time out of the house, but has been searching for a better paying full-time job for over 4 years in the hope we can build up our savings. The only offers she has received would actually result in us losing money on the deal (after taxes and having to pay for child care costs the net income from the jobs would be negative relative to her part-time job; we currently have no childcare costs since she works part-time from home).
So even though unemployment has fallen dramatically, stagnant wages and underemployment are still a major problem.
So even though unemployment has fallen dramatically, stagnant wages and underemployment are still a major problem.
8
I don't understand calling it "under employed." A worker with a large, voluntary gap in her job history is being a bit absurd to imagine she can leap back into the workforce when it suits her personal wants, and resume the same stature, salary and benefits. Obviously people who made work, not leisure, their priority in the interim will be better positioned to make career strides.
Under committed might be more apropos than under employed.
Under committed might be more apropos than under employed.
5
Leisure? I don't think that taking care of young children plus an elderly stroke-impaired parent is most people's idea of leisure. Many young peoples are finding that their degrees are not helping them get meaningful, decently paid work. But our country continues pushing hard on automation and globalization. Race to the bottom?
4
Why did she get the choice to stay home and you didn't?
2
I had been a teacher for 20 years, working with a sub license. I became aware that I no longer had the physical stamina to comfortably cope with a classroom of children. I went for a degree in social work and subsequently received a degree and a license (LMSW). That was in 2008. I searched for a job in my chosen field for years and was unable to find one. I have done therapy privately. But that endeavor brings in very little money, because in order to access health insurance, it is necessary to have a clinical social work license (LCSW), which would require that I have a social work job for at least 2 years. But since I have been unable to find a job, I could never get the requisite credential.
4
We need to restore dignity to service jobs. I think McDonald's and Huffy Lube is in the same category as customer service rep at real estate company. We are all basically customers or serving those customers. We don't need old manufacturing jobs in this world since we're already overstocked and filled with stuff that end up in garbage if not sold by the end of the quarter. I work in retail and I'm disgusted by the amount of products that are wasted without having been used once. We don't need to buy brand new stuff all the time. Many people already spend so much money for old houses. We don't need many drugs if we focus more on prevention of diseases through lifestyle changes. We have to start investing in infrastructure and healthy food that we will actually use and appreciate. If we stop working out of self interest and start working for the sake of other's benefits, the economy will be fixed easily. The problem will be changing the scarcity mindset and fears associated with loss of your own benefits to others. Many women work for free for their family and love what they do. Meaningful work doesn't have to come with a big paycheck reflecting fancy degrees.
5
Fortunately, my Dad saved for retirement and had a public school pension. I will never have to quit my job to take care of him even though he has Alzheimers. Because if I had to quit my job, I wouldn't have retirement myself and the cycle would continue with my own daughter setting her career aside to care for me. Something my father would never want.
That said, even though my dad is in an Alzheimers' care facility, I STILL spend hours a week visiting him, making sure his health care needs get followed up on and so forth. I am very, very fortunate that my employer understands this and that my sick leave can be used for immediate family members. My employer is the state government. Good enough for government work!
That said, even though my dad is in an Alzheimers' care facility, I STILL spend hours a week visiting him, making sure his health care needs get followed up on and so forth. I am very, very fortunate that my employer understands this and that my sick leave can be used for immediate family members. My employer is the state government. Good enough for government work!
20
I am a 59 year old single woman. I saw it coming in the fall of 2013 and by the end of June 2014, my job was eliminated in SF's financial district. Since then I established an overnight pet sitting business to provide for my housing, some income and opportunities to explore other geographic areas that might be more economically sustainable.
All the while I have applied for jobs, attended vocational workshops, and constantly re-tool my resume to reflect relevant experience from decades among marketing, hospitality and tech industries. I haven't found any traction in the conventional job market unless I work for near at minimum wage. I do not want to buy into a victim mentality that claims ageism, but I do feel that is part my exclusion from the job market.
I am actually homeless, receive governmental food stamp and health benefits and, fortunately, my friends and family offer a safety net. I think we are seeing a time when we need to turn to each other in community to break down the walls of our mythological self-sustaining "independence." The truth is we need each other deeply. This challenge insists that we create new ways of working and living with each other amidst the shambles of an economy that tends to favor conventional corporate and social arrangements. There is nothing conventional about these times. Creativity, compassion, community are key now.
All the while I have applied for jobs, attended vocational workshops, and constantly re-tool my resume to reflect relevant experience from decades among marketing, hospitality and tech industries. I haven't found any traction in the conventional job market unless I work for near at minimum wage. I do not want to buy into a victim mentality that claims ageism, but I do feel that is part my exclusion from the job market.
I am actually homeless, receive governmental food stamp and health benefits and, fortunately, my friends and family offer a safety net. I think we are seeing a time when we need to turn to each other in community to break down the walls of our mythological self-sustaining "independence." The truth is we need each other deeply. This challenge insists that we create new ways of working and living with each other amidst the shambles of an economy that tends to favor conventional corporate and social arrangements. There is nothing conventional about these times. Creativity, compassion, community are key now.
45
For the richest country in the world, we sure are the poorest.
2
If we now consider customer service representative jobs as the desired jobs of the new era, why does anyone need to pursue an expensive college degree? We are pushing our children and young adults to stay in school, pursue a degree and perpetuate the higher education ponzi scheme only to reward them with careers that only require basic reading and math skills and the ability to follow directions. How does this new norm support a parent's dream to have their children achieve more than they accomplished? Also, before we place the blame of inflexibility in job requirements on the "evil" employer, ask yourselves the question... as a consumer, how tolerant would you be of a service provider that charged a premium over their competitors, provided hours of operation that were not compatible to your needs but told you that this was to provide flexibility to their employees? Businesses operate in a model that is mandated by their customers. The ones that don't quickly go out of business.
5
I do hope no one is laboring under the sad illusion that the new administration, or Congress, is going to sympathize with your plight, much less do anything to help you. If you boil down the entire Republican philosophy it can be expressed in four words: "Every person for himself". If you are at the station waiting for that "train" to arrive you better lace up your shoes and start walking. There is no train.
25
The OECD labor participation rate chart explains it perfectly: countries that have policies that value caregiving roles, like maternal leave or universal pre-K, are better equipped to keep women in the workforce. Many of my educated peers have left the workforce for motherhood because even their professional jobs do not provide the benefits or pay enough to compensate for childcare upon their return. If men won't perform service jobs considered by them to be "women's work" and women are forced to stay home to raise the next generation, how will we ever succeed as a nation? Or if we must, how can we achieve "productivity" and "growth" if employment practices are hostile to 50% of the workforce, and the other half doesn't want the job?
66
I have no problem underwriting caregiving for elders or for people who are disabled, or for children in the foster system.
That's entirely different from expecting taxpayers to subsidize parenthood more than they already do. In a country that can import all the labor it needs, we don't need to underwrite homegrown citizens. Parenthood here is a voluntary lifestyle choice, not an involuntary hardship. Plan for it, save for it or don't do it.
That's entirely different from expecting taxpayers to subsidize parenthood more than they already do. In a country that can import all the labor it needs, we don't need to underwrite homegrown citizens. Parenthood here is a voluntary lifestyle choice, not an involuntary hardship. Plan for it, save for it or don't do it.
5
It strikes me that there two types of folks who drop out - those that have saved enough to live a simpler existence or have a partner who pays the bills; and those that plan the rest of their life around the largess of the fellow citizens and act as if food stamps, welfare, and other programs are "free stuff".
Bill Clinton - of all people - did a house cleaning in the 90's perhaps we are due for another hard look at what we provide to perfectly health working-age men and women who choose not to work.
Bill Clinton - of all people - did a house cleaning in the 90's perhaps we are due for another hard look at what we provide to perfectly health working-age men and women who choose not to work.
4
If they are choosing not to work because the alternative is their elderly parent dying or their kids being taken away by DYFS because they aren't properly cared for, then that is something else we need to look at.
2
Good comment SteveRR. Clearly what Bill Clinton did to our social safety net didn't work very well or we wouldn't be where we're at today. We need greatly increased government spending and new legislation to ensure quality-of-life for all Americans.
2
Completely missed the point of this article, did you? Krystin dropped out because she's juggling caring for her ill mother and two kids--and the jobs that are there don't pay enough, eat up as much time as her full-time gig--or would be a black mark on her resume. Would you seriously punish her for caring for her family?
4
American needs to discuss what is a modern American family.
Business seems to think about a family of four, very healthy, with both adults working full time without any problems bring up children. And, of course, no elderly family members.
Is there life beyond working? What should the government do to make us a great place to grow up and old? And if the government won't do anything are there any alternatives?
Business seems to think about a family of four, very healthy, with both adults working full time without any problems bring up children. And, of course, no elderly family members.
Is there life beyond working? What should the government do to make us a great place to grow up and old? And if the government won't do anything are there any alternatives?
10
The title is misleading. Those women are not quitting work, they are quitting a job and working at home taking care of family members. A lot of people, mostly women, work outside a regular job and contribute enormously to society, my wife being one of them. It is debatable what is better, to work for yourself at home or to have a job and pay others to take care of your children.
26
Taking the long view, it is not debatable at all. Leaving the paid workforce is taking a very big risk with the rest of your life. Employment/Insurance gaps can really bite you. Especially if the breadwinning spouse suddenly leaves, dies, or becomes unemployed.
4
However, "working for yourself at home" is not respected or included on the resume; it is considered a career gap, as if nothing is happening or it is leisure. I have never been to an interview where I was asked what would be a valid and excellent question: "in the time you have cared for your children or other family member, been an active volunteer with [xxx], been a parent..., what have you learned? what new skills have you picked up? what difficult problems have you solved?" Personally, I have learned and experienced much that is to be valued and has affected the world and others in this kind of WORK. "Housework" IS much more than is recognized. As to HARD SKILLS to be used in enterprise, we all need to keep learning them- upgrading, new ones. The workplace and the academic world are structured in such a way that this is NOT happening, and is a source of much of the economic disarray today.
2
It's not that complicated.
1. unequal pay for equal work.
2. gender discrimination/sexual harassment in the workplace in many fields remains an issue.
3. unpaid/undervalued work as family caregivers.
4. high cost of childcare.
1. unequal pay for equal work.
2. gender discrimination/sexual harassment in the workplace in many fields remains an issue.
3. unpaid/undervalued work as family caregivers.
4. high cost of childcare.
28
Department of Labor CONSAD study says pay gap almost entirely due to personal choices, not discrimination.
Childcare costs are well known and can be planned for and saved for by the prudent would-be parent. Not interested in working hard so my wages can go to help the imprudent would-be parent.
Childcare costs are well known and can be planned for and saved for by the prudent would-be parent. Not interested in working hard so my wages can go to help the imprudent would-be parent.
2
I would add age discrimination that starts at age 40.
4
That is a badly flawed study that cherry-picks data to arrive at a conclusion not supported by the total evidence. When one adjusts for the factors mentioned in the study, there still remains about 15% less earings for women with the same education, qualifications, and work experience compared to men. That leaves gender discrimination as the most likely explaining factor.
As one of my professors told me, "read the whole article, not just the abstract." :-)
As one of my professors told me, "read the whole article, not just the abstract." :-)
2
Myself: an older divorced mother taking care of her school-aged child and helping her 80+ year-old mother when I lost my part-time job during the 2008 recession. Then, I worked with developmentally disabled, but couldn't keep up a job that had weekend hours, because my ex-husband worked weekends as well and it was too much for my elderly mother to watch our child.
I tried retraining in healthcare but was unsuccessful. Meanwhile, my mother slipped into her 90s and struggled with dementia and other health issues. I became her full-time caregiver until she died 2 years ago.
At age 60+, I wouldn't mind a part-time job to supplement inherited savings I use as income. I have no pension, social security is years away, and my child grew up to become a college student--an expensive endeavor these days.
Applying for jobs at my age is often a joke. I'm volunteering now to get experience and references; we'll see how far that takes me.
I tried retraining in healthcare but was unsuccessful. Meanwhile, my mother slipped into her 90s and struggled with dementia and other health issues. I became her full-time caregiver until she died 2 years ago.
At age 60+, I wouldn't mind a part-time job to supplement inherited savings I use as income. I have no pension, social security is years away, and my child grew up to become a college student--an expensive endeavor these days.
Applying for jobs at my age is often a joke. I'm volunteering now to get experience and references; we'll see how far that takes me.
22
I am facing this dilemma right now: one of my kids is special needs and the responsibility for dealing with that kid's issues (ranging from dr's appointments to nightly tantrums) falls 100% to me. So, even though I outearned my husband last year, and even though I am leery of pausing my work for fear of damaging my prospects in the future, I'm likely to take a leave of absence to try to get that child properly diagnosed and provided with the treatment that will help the child get to a better, more stable place.
I have a great job situation now - pays well, work mostly for myself, valued contributor, etc. But I can't "balance work and family" if the family part is 90% on me, let alone if it includes extra burdens.
It sucks and I am really angry about it, but I don't see another path. He is not capable of taking on a fair share and, as far as I can tell, not willing to do so either.
("Capable" here meaning "possessing the emotional skills to support and manage a very difficult person", not in the sense of "being able to drive to the doctor's." While he is a good person in many ways, he's not great with kids which is why all of the caretaking and other emotional labor falls to me. TBH, this is not the deal I signed up for.)
I have a great job situation now - pays well, work mostly for myself, valued contributor, etc. But I can't "balance work and family" if the family part is 90% on me, let alone if it includes extra burdens.
It sucks and I am really angry about it, but I don't see another path. He is not capable of taking on a fair share and, as far as I can tell, not willing to do so either.
("Capable" here meaning "possessing the emotional skills to support and manage a very difficult person", not in the sense of "being able to drive to the doctor's." While he is a good person in many ways, he's not great with kids which is why all of the caretaking and other emotional labor falls to me. TBH, this is not the deal I signed up for.)
23
Sounds like a poor choice of husband.
I'm always amazed that prospective parents don't discuss and plan for what they will do if their child has any sort of serious health problem or disability. Plan A, B, C and D always seem to be "complain that society doesn't do more to bail us out."
I'm always amazed that prospective parents don't discuss and plan for what they will do if their child has any sort of serious health problem or disability. Plan A, B, C and D always seem to be "complain that society doesn't do more to bail us out."
3
This is why I just divorced my exhusband. No need to keep a man around who earns less, refuses to help with the kids which are 1/2 his ( by the way studies show the special needs genes come from the male genes), and won't help with the house. Free you self up to either be alone or have the ability to find a more supportive partner.
LIve is much better without a husband who doesn't help and won't work to earn more and resents you and the kids.
LIve is much better without a husband who doesn't help and won't work to earn more and resents you and the kids.
5
Sounds like you married the wrong guy. Don't give up your future.
3
Never wise for a woman to completely leave the work force. Become obsolete very quickly. Future employers do not like gaps in employment history.
Flexibility in hours of employment is a big problem for working women who are usually the care givers regardless of how helpful their spouse may be.
Sometimes it is necessary to take a job that may not meet your expectations if it gives you some flexibility necessary at that point in your life.
Flexibility in hours of employment is a big problem for working women who are usually the care givers regardless of how helpful their spouse may be.
Sometimes it is necessary to take a job that may not meet your expectations if it gives you some flexibility necessary at that point in your life.
23
Exactly, Sandy. This describes my current job. It is professionally unfulfilling, but the hours are the best for childcare. I am keeping my professional foot in the door and hoping that I can move on to something better when my childcare situation changes.
To quit completely, although we *could* technically afford it (lucky us), would spell the end of my career forever and be a waste of the considerable sum I spent on my education. It is typically women who make these types of calculated sacrifices in an attempt to balance work and family. Men are simply not under the same pressure. My husband gets a gold star for changing diapers while it is just expected of me, although we have attained similar levels of professional achievement.
To quit completely, although we *could* technically afford it (lucky us), would spell the end of my career forever and be a waste of the considerable sum I spent on my education. It is typically women who make these types of calculated sacrifices in an attempt to balance work and family. Men are simply not under the same pressure. My husband gets a gold star for changing diapers while it is just expected of me, although we have attained similar levels of professional achievement.
3
As if it's that easy.
3
Public day-care and early childhood education, and women will work productively in every possible setting in which they are given a fair chance.
10
Taxpayers already provide $9 billion a year in early childhood education.
2
Or you could choose not to have kids.
2
Thanks for what I hope is the beginning of serious reporting of work in the U.S. Lack of work, underpaid work, lack of societal supports, topped by unheard of income inequality are all factors that drove the vote the way it went this year. Beyond the aggregate numbers that keep reporting more people back at work, there are countless untold stories. And unchecked technological "advances" (do we want driverless cars and trucks?) stand not to improve things. Here's hoping the NYT makes this a steady beat.
10
Work, or a job, is not all it is cracked-up to be.
6
PEOPLE quit working. I've quit jobs for reasons I'm sure are shared by females who also quit jobs. Quit being a divisive force NYT, or your days are numbered.
5
Of course people quit jobs for perfectly good reasons. Only Teabaggers decide that an employment gap means you are automatically stupid and are not fit to ever hold another job again. Nobody between the ages of 40 and 65 are considered employable even though their tech skills are as good as anybody else's (and NEWSFLASH MILLENNIALS: Your computer skills suck!!! Tweeting and setting up a Facebook account is not proficiency).
Joe, how nice that you quit your job to raise your young children full-time, or that you took care of your parents or wife when they became disabled or had a stroke. It's great that your loved ones can count on you to make them a priority over your job when they need you to provide that care.
And don't pass all that effort onto your wife or siblings (if you have any.)
And don't pass all that effort onto your wife or siblings (if you have any.)
When I was in the prime of my professional life, my mother became seriously ill and my--I am an only child--options were to place her in a nursing home which provided very substandard care and cost per month one and a half times my monthly net income or to arrange for three daily shifts of "home carers" who were not professionally trained, who had to be payed in cash at the end of each shift, and could decide at will that they were not going to show up for their shifts--or ever again--without notice OR I could quit my job and take care of her while totally depleting the accrued financial assets of the both of us. Guess, which option I "CHOSE"? That was three decades ago. Everything changes constantly, but nothing changes much...
13
When I think about people who are not employed and earning a living or are working part time one things comes to mind that isn't mentioned in this article.
These people will have no savings or money put away that they can use when they reach the retirement age..
They will have no pension or Social Security because they have not worked and will have no savings because they did not have any after using the money they had to live on.
How will they survive.
They will only have only SSI, food Stamps and Medicaid.
That isn't enough to survive on.
Will society let this happen and if not what can society do to improve the lives of these elderly people who might be you in the future.
I can not imagine what we can do to help these people.
This troubles me because I have friends who will have this type of life who I do not want to see suffering.
Are there answers especially now when government will have less resources to help because Trump will reduce taxes.
These people will have no savings or money put away that they can use when they reach the retirement age..
They will have no pension or Social Security because they have not worked and will have no savings because they did not have any after using the money they had to live on.
How will they survive.
They will only have only SSI, food Stamps and Medicaid.
That isn't enough to survive on.
Will society let this happen and if not what can society do to improve the lives of these elderly people who might be you in the future.
I can not imagine what we can do to help these people.
This troubles me because I have friends who will have this type of life who I do not want to see suffering.
Are there answers especially now when government will have less resources to help because Trump will reduce taxes.
12
If they are married they most certainly will be able to claim Social Security and Medicare benefits based on their spouse's contributions. Thus effectively giving married couples with a non-working spouse a 50 percent bonus in retirement (not counting Medicare) over the SS benefits of a solo person who made the exact same contributions as the married breadwinner.
Quite skewed and unfair.
Quite skewed and unfair.
3
I got "laid off" at the age of 63. So I became retired. I deserve a rest, but this is not how I would have chosen to exit the workforce. Glad my house and car are paid off!
15
Me too but at 62 position unfunded. I casually look but no bites. Luckily my husband is still working and mortgage almost paid off.
2
I was on a partnership track in a NY law firm when I became pregnant and agreed to relocate to another state because my husband was transferred for a two year gig. It was his home state where his family lived, so I believed I would have family help with my child (my family was in NY). At the end of two years he had the option of staying or returning to NY, and he refused to return to NY. His schedule was late and erratic, his parents retired and moved out of state, day care required 6 pm pick-up, and no legal job I was qualified to do allowed me to pick up 6 pm consistently every day. I decided to hold off for a few years and stay home with the children (a second came along).
That turned into 12, by which time he actually left me for his secretary.
Funds were frozen when divorce papers were filed, and he was ordered to pay only $4K toward my legal bills. He spent $40K on his own, largely in trade. With no way to pay for a trial, I settled for child support and some alimony for five years until my youngest was out of school. I was prohibited from moving out of state with the kids.
My elderly mother had a stroke and fell two weeks before that youngest graduated from high school. She had to move in with me and although she is fully alert and mostly ambulatory, at 90, she is frail, deaf and needs too much care for me to be out at a full time job. However, her tiny pension, amounting to $20K/year, disqualifies our household from assistance.
I freelance. I'm 60.
That turned into 12, by which time he actually left me for his secretary.
Funds were frozen when divorce papers were filed, and he was ordered to pay only $4K toward my legal bills. He spent $40K on his own, largely in trade. With no way to pay for a trial, I settled for child support and some alimony for five years until my youngest was out of school. I was prohibited from moving out of state with the kids.
My elderly mother had a stroke and fell two weeks before that youngest graduated from high school. She had to move in with me and although she is fully alert and mostly ambulatory, at 90, she is frail, deaf and needs too much care for me to be out at a full time job. However, her tiny pension, amounting to $20K/year, disqualifies our household from assistance.
I freelance. I'm 60.
25
Partner-track attorney but you could not find a solution to childcare that lasted beyond 6 p.m.? A neighborhood teen or college student to retrieve the children from the daycare center? Or retiree? A nanny? An au pair?
I"m sorry but claiming that inability to get childcare prompted you to stay out of the work force for 12 years (and expressing it in the passive voice of "that turned into 12 years" as though daily choices by you did not contribute) is quite astounding. Please don't blame "society" for the eventual outcome.
I"m sorry but claiming that inability to get childcare prompted you to stay out of the work force for 12 years (and expressing it in the passive voice of "that turned into 12 years" as though daily choices by you did not contribute) is quite astounding. Please don't blame "society" for the eventual outcome.
6
She is not without a job. She has an unpaid job -- caring for an elderly stroke victim.
Why is that an unpaid job? Lack of proper health care for the stroke victim.
As our population includes more elderly, we will see more of this. We need people paid to provide care, real options for someone who needs care.
This is really assigning a $40,000/yr worker to care for one elderly patient. That is not efficient. It is however invisible, because the cost falls entirely on the one woman, who takes it because she won't abandon her mother to die of neglect.
This example is proof that we need a system, including health care, not just quick fixes like "job training."
Why is that an unpaid job? Lack of proper health care for the stroke victim.
As our population includes more elderly, we will see more of this. We need people paid to provide care, real options for someone who needs care.
This is really assigning a $40,000/yr worker to care for one elderly patient. That is not efficient. It is however invisible, because the cost falls entirely on the one woman, who takes it because she won't abandon her mother to die of neglect.
This example is proof that we need a system, including health care, not just quick fixes like "job training."
116
Mark, you are exactly right. It is a waste of resources to have a high-earning worker do the job that someone else could do with less training and for less money. Ms. Stevenson is not the only one losing; society is as well.
4
Also, one worker could and should handle more than one patient, but can't under this informal system.
4
So many jobs in the US are terribly low quality. In my field, medicine, no one ever used to quit. But nowadays there are several websites dedicated to early retirement for physicians because the field is so awful. There's no job security (you will always find a job, but it might be across the country). There is constant reevaluation and re-credentialing. If our highest paid, most educated workforce members are leaving, is it any shock that lower paid, less appreciated workers are quitting.
If you look at the multitude of websites dedicated to early retirement (Mr. Money Mustache, Millennial Boss, Millennial Revolution, The Power of Thrift, the Frugalwoods) you will see that the goal of these highly educated, highly motivated, and highly valuable workers (including physicians, lawyers, and engineers) a is to leave the workforce ASAP.
We need to improve the quality of jobs for people to come back. I look at my own career in medicine and wonder why I'm working nights for worse benefits than a person receiving Medicaid or Medicare. Only a fool would continue indefinitely.
If you look at the multitude of websites dedicated to early retirement (Mr. Money Mustache, Millennial Boss, Millennial Revolution, The Power of Thrift, the Frugalwoods) you will see that the goal of these highly educated, highly motivated, and highly valuable workers (including physicians, lawyers, and engineers) a is to leave the workforce ASAP.
We need to improve the quality of jobs for people to come back. I look at my own career in medicine and wonder why I'm working nights for worse benefits than a person receiving Medicaid or Medicare. Only a fool would continue indefinitely.
57
This sums it up so nicely. We're millennials. We are choosing to remain childless (how can anyone afford it anymore unless they're in the wealthy class?). My husband is blessed with an upper middle class job, but we both consider that a result of luck, not hard work, talent, and intelligence. That's the reality facing our generation.
We save 50-60% of our income every month. We paid off all student loan and consumer debt. We own our cars, and they're not fancy. We are intentionally minimalist; we have set our lifestyle expectations low. We do not expect to have a better lifestyle, or even the same lifestyle, our parents had.
We are terrified about the near future under the trump administration (cabinet's net worth = entire bottom 3rd of Americans' income). We expect another recession at best and, more likely, a second Great Depression.
I'm currently unemployed, and not really looking. Tired of offers of $9-$10/hour when I have a master's degree and substantial background experience. I do have a job part of the year, but I'm a contract worker with the state, so there is no job security. Every year, for 3-6 months, I'm unemployed. It has been that way for 6 years now. It pays well, though
We did the math, and it's cheaper for me to just stay home until the state hires me on again. It enables us to be more frugal because we have time to bargain shop, meal plan, etc. My husband's goal is to retire as early as possible, by 50 ideally. His degree is in physics, by the way.
We save 50-60% of our income every month. We paid off all student loan and consumer debt. We own our cars, and they're not fancy. We are intentionally minimalist; we have set our lifestyle expectations low. We do not expect to have a better lifestyle, or even the same lifestyle, our parents had.
We are terrified about the near future under the trump administration (cabinet's net worth = entire bottom 3rd of Americans' income). We expect another recession at best and, more likely, a second Great Depression.
I'm currently unemployed, and not really looking. Tired of offers of $9-$10/hour when I have a master's degree and substantial background experience. I do have a job part of the year, but I'm a contract worker with the state, so there is no job security. Every year, for 3-6 months, I'm unemployed. It has been that way for 6 years now. It pays well, though
We did the math, and it's cheaper for me to just stay home until the state hires me on again. It enables us to be more frugal because we have time to bargain shop, meal plan, etc. My husband's goal is to retire as early as possible, by 50 ideally. His degree is in physics, by the way.
75
I wouldn't ascribe a degree in physics to pure luck. Your husband must have something upstairs other than good fortune. But there's another crucial difference between you and the woman in this article. You are married. Both of you work. That gives you a little more flexibility, in terms of health care, housing, taking seasonal work, etc. If's a lot easier to economize when sharing a household and when it comes to raising children, it's fairly obvious that two people will find it an easier task than one.
5
This is so sad. Work brings purpose and satisfaction. I also worked freelance for 6 years, so I understand the "feast or famine" aspect of that. The thing is, do you like being dependent on your husband? Does he like it? What do you do all day when not working? I've been unemployed plenty and sure it's nice not to have a boss breathing down your neck but it never even occurred to me that I should just not work at all. (By the way, I am GenX, also child-free by choice and married).
3
Employers seem to have intensified their demand that employees function as if they were machines. This appears to be a cultural side effect of the cyberization of everything. But in fact tech should be able to provide a flexible framework for matching the variable needs of employers with the variable availability of employees. Think of an interface along the lines of Uber, but without the pernicious effect of depressing earnings (as Uber/Lyft have done to the cab drivers).
20
I stopped working full-time in 2011 - at the time my mother was 89 and her health beginning to fail and the dementia take over after the death of my father in 2008 and my daughters were 12 and 8. I am still working part-time - in my field as an attorney - by the grace of God and some good friends who let me work from home more than I'm in the office. (I bill about 30 hours a week, which is about half time for what I do.) I was my mother's proxy until her death on October 1, 2016. Even though she was in a nursing home for the last year prior to her death, I was her voice and her protector. Plus I cared for two teens. And a husband. And three dogs. And volunteered at church and with the Home and School at both kids schools.
I don't know at 55 if I will try to look for something full time. The odds of a firm wanting to hire a 55 year old attorney with no portable business for a full time job are somewhere between slim and none.
We visit family on vacations. We have no college savings for our children and minimal retirement accounts. God have mercy on us.
I don't know at 55 if I will try to look for something full time. The odds of a firm wanting to hire a 55 year old attorney with no portable business for a full time job are somewhere between slim and none.
We visit family on vacations. We have no college savings for our children and minimal retirement accounts. God have mercy on us.
55
The teens, husband, dogs, church and volunteering all are optional.
I always find it amusing when people feel entitled to "have it all" i.e. the highest possible American standard of living, on a planet teeming with 7 billion people most of whom just get the bare necessities. But people like this feel entitled to an advanced education, lucrative and fulfilling career, as many kids as they choose to bear, a nice home in an upscale school district, expensive (to care for) pets, vacations (and apparently visiting family is sub-par) and a cushy retirement.
Very few people in the history of humankind have ever had more than one or two of the above if that -- and as the global population continues to burgeon toward suicide levels, with billions more fighting to eke out a livelihood amid dwindling natural resources, global climate change, advancing technology and strife -- it's not going to get any more likely to "have it all."
Adjust expectations accordingly, especially if you are one of the people actively and willfully contributing to the overpopulation problem.
I always find it amusing when people feel entitled to "have it all" i.e. the highest possible American standard of living, on a planet teeming with 7 billion people most of whom just get the bare necessities. But people like this feel entitled to an advanced education, lucrative and fulfilling career, as many kids as they choose to bear, a nice home in an upscale school district, expensive (to care for) pets, vacations (and apparently visiting family is sub-par) and a cushy retirement.
Very few people in the history of humankind have ever had more than one or two of the above if that -- and as the global population continues to burgeon toward suicide levels, with billions more fighting to eke out a livelihood amid dwindling natural resources, global climate change, advancing technology and strife -- it's not going to get any more likely to "have it all."
Adjust expectations accordingly, especially if you are one of the people actively and willfully contributing to the overpopulation problem.
5
The woman has 2 children and you're castigating her for her choices? When we have billionaires running our government? What a horrible anti-human point-of-view, grow a heart!
4
No spouse/partner and no children. Who will care for you when the "long term care" insurance has reached its limit and all your assets have been spent down?
I see that for many, job status is the key ingredient in their decision about working or not.
That is similar to saying that "I need a car to be productive but it must be a Mercedes or nothing".
That is similar to saying that "I need a car to be productive but it must be a Mercedes or nothing".
9
However, most employers will only hire for a position those who have had the position before - i.e., a job for an executive assistant requires one who has had say five years prior experience. One can no longer jump from one industry/position to another as was the case 20 years ago.
2
There is a difference between wanting an expensive car simply for the status of having an expensive car and wanting a job that will pay you a livable wage.
7
Ms. Stevenson, like many caregivers, needs a job that allows her the flexibility to take care of her mother and her children. She also needs a job that will pay enough for that care. If she is at work, she will have to hire someone to provide that care. I ask you - what job will give her that pay and that flexibility?
9
An age-old problem, care-giving and enslavement to money-earning. Age-old solution is nurturing woman does the care-giving, less sensitive more competitive male does the money-earning. Sound familiar? Nothing sacred about it, not for everyone (role reversals are fine if appropriate) and they need to be equals in the overall enterprise, but as a business model it often represents the best deployment of resources so it shouldn't necessarily be resented as 'the patriarchy.'
6
Except when you are a single woman earning for your family and taking care of your ailing parents. Let's support all family situations, not only the ones with "powerful male earners."
9
People DO work part time - I'm one of them. Not everything has to be in polarities - in or out (of the workforce), black or white, right or left. There are middle grounds. I think to many women think they cannot even ask for flexible schedules or don't consider ways to make it happen by consulting and taking no benefits (I get health care from my husband's job and put aside my own taxes). Ask and you just may get. I know plenty who do (in the working class too).
6
What does an employer have to lose by offering a valued employer flexibility? Ms. Stevenson might have been able to continue to earn an income and care for her mother and children, if her employer had been more supportive.
I can attest to the significance of a flexible, compassionate employer. Caring for an aging and ill parent requires many hours and often many caregivers, especially if you can afford to pay someone, you can rely on family help, or your parent has a long-term health insurance policy. But for many of us, we toil to the point of exhaustion, bathing, lifting, cleaning, toileting, feeding, for 8, 10, 12 or more hours a day. Imagine trying to get the attention of the despot-in-chief and the congressional gestapo to even consider the needs of caregivers, a growing crisis. They can't wait to cut or privatize the very social programs our elderly relatives rely on.
Can we at least count on employers to demonstrate a little compassion and begin to subsidize caregiving services for its employees?
I can attest to the significance of a flexible, compassionate employer. Caring for an aging and ill parent requires many hours and often many caregivers, especially if you can afford to pay someone, you can rely on family help, or your parent has a long-term health insurance policy. But for many of us, we toil to the point of exhaustion, bathing, lifting, cleaning, toileting, feeding, for 8, 10, 12 or more hours a day. Imagine trying to get the attention of the despot-in-chief and the congressional gestapo to even consider the needs of caregivers, a growing crisis. They can't wait to cut or privatize the very social programs our elderly relatives rely on.
Can we at least count on employers to demonstrate a little compassion and begin to subsidize caregiving services for its employees?
28
As a society, lets supplement, not supplant, the individual's earnings. Let us require any able bodied individual receiving taxpayer assistance to repay that assistance with service hours.
12
Or garnish their social security payments in future.
6
Only if that includes every CEO and recipient of farm subsidies, every Defense Contractor and all members of Congress.
12
I have supported both my parents my entire adult life-first my father, who died young , and then my mother who passed at 93. In both cases, I worked 45+ hours a week, took 30 years to get a four year degree, and changed fields, as businesses I worked for were either bought by others, or moved jobs elsewhere. Now, at a time where people start thinking about retirement, I am supporting another family member, fighting my own health/disability issues, and know I will never retire,only die. This country is very cruel towards those who either choose, or are forced to be caregivers.
125
I have a very similar story. Electrical engineer turned family caregiver and part-time math tutor.
Anna from NC nailed it. we're just filling in the gaps of societal neglect.
Anna from NC nailed it. we're just filling in the gaps of societal neglect.
84
I'm surprised as a customer service representative she wasn't able to work from home. Corporate telework policies have flourished in recent years. Being in an industry that doesn't have one, I feel like we are in ancient times. Even a day to work from home makes the world of difference.
I would advise Ms. Stevenson to seek out flexible working options. As someone with good communications and writing skills (and a P.R. background), there are vast freelance and part-time options available to suit her needs.
I would advise Ms. Stevenson to seek out flexible working options. As someone with good communications and writing skills (and a P.R. background), there are vast freelance and part-time options available to suit her needs.
10
The freelance hustle takes up more time and is less well-paid and less flexible than other work. And no benefits.
3
I feel for people like Ms. Stevenson who make repeated poor choices in their lives and then a bump in the road becomes a catastrophe. But, I'm tired of paying for it.
An AA in "Human Services" and a BA in "Public Relations"? Was there any thought process into the marketability of these degrees? This is what I hear when Bernie starts talking about giving college away for free. As if the 12 years + of free education and waste was not enough. More useless degrees earned by people that would be better off learning to be a plumber or an electrician. Also, Jiffy Lube is an excellent company that provides a very good service for a fair price. It's too bad that some look down their nose at this employment, which could be a stepping stone to another higher paying job or god forbid, going into business for yourself. You know, self reliance.
An AA in "Human Services" and a BA in "Public Relations"? Was there any thought process into the marketability of these degrees? This is what I hear when Bernie starts talking about giving college away for free. As if the 12 years + of free education and waste was not enough. More useless degrees earned by people that would be better off learning to be a plumber or an electrician. Also, Jiffy Lube is an excellent company that provides a very good service for a fair price. It's too bad that some look down their nose at this employment, which could be a stepping stone to another higher paying job or god forbid, going into business for yourself. You know, self reliance.
46
The real problem is that our economy only works for those with relationships, family connections and other perks that give them access to opportunities usually not posted on indeed.org or monster job search engines. Working 40 hours a week on $8.00/hr at Jimmy Lube is not going to provide you enough to pay for child care, gas, shelter and the other necessities. These jobs offer little health benefits, PTO time and flexibility. A manager at such a company will probably make $2 to $3 more than an entry level position and let us not fool of ourselves into thinking that an entry level employee in the middle of nowhere will get any recognition from a corporate level site in the other side of the country. This work model might have existed in the 50s or 60s, but not any more. Ms. Stevenson is actually saving the system money by monitoring her mother's health and preventing her from suffering another costly health intervention.
It is very easy to claim "self reliance" and "pulling yourself from your boot straps" but our individualistic society and economy provides little room for support from other members outside of family.
It is very easy to claim "self reliance" and "pulling yourself from your boot straps" but our individualistic society and economy provides little room for support from other members outside of family.
13
Ms. Stevenson was working, she was putting her degrees to use, she was taking care of her children. Like many Americans, all works out until a health crisis. Her mother's stroke meant that Ms. Stevenson had to make different decisions. Her job did not give her the flexibility to take care of her mother and children and work fulltime. So, she had to leave it. I ask that you show her some compassion, the same compassion that you will want when you are put in her position. We are all one health crisis away from having to make difficult decisions.
14
You mean like her "poor choice" of having a mother, who had provided her with child care, decide to have a stroke and place further demands on her time and energy?
9
The summer my kids were in 4th grade I quit my job. It was the start of the recession, for one thing, and I saw the writing on the wall. I was one of four engineers where I worked and I figured it was only a matter of time before I got laid off. But the more pressing matter was child care.
Every summer was the same story. I managed to get my kids into summer programs, but there was always about a 3 week gap between the end of summer camp and when school started. I'd just had enough of trying to figure out what to do with the kids, as if *they* were the problem. The school year was little better because each month came with scheduled days off and sick days that I also had to arrange for child care or, as was more typical, stay home with them. I felt I was constantly either not doing my best at work or at home.
Fortunately I was in a financial position to be able to drop out of the work force. What surprised me was the reaction of my female friends and colleagues. To a one they said, "You go, girl! If I could do that, I would."
Every summer was the same story. I managed to get my kids into summer programs, but there was always about a 3 week gap between the end of summer camp and when school started. I'd just had enough of trying to figure out what to do with the kids, as if *they* were the problem. The school year was little better because each month came with scheduled days off and sick days that I also had to arrange for child care or, as was more typical, stay home with them. I felt I was constantly either not doing my best at work or at home.
Fortunately I was in a financial position to be able to drop out of the work force. What surprised me was the reaction of my female friends and colleagues. To a one they said, "You go, girl! If I could do that, I would."
150
Were you not aware that schools broke for summer vacation before you chose to have children?
The failure of would-be parents to plan for the utterly obvious is mind-boggling, really.
The failure of would-be parents to plan for the utterly obvious is mind-boggling, really.
15
Work brings fulfillment and satisfaction and purpose. i feel that kids should see that work is important. I guess if you're rich you can afford it, but what about when the kids leave home? And if you're married, your spouse will feel pressure that they are the only ones working, the only ones supporting the family. That's really hard and not fair.
2
In response to @atb, I do agree with you. I didn't leave my career without a lot of thought. I wondered how my kids would see me as a stay at home mom versus a working mom. I also struggled with the issue of putting the entire burden of our household finances on my spouse. It wasn't an easy decision to allow myself to be entirely reliant on my spouse, either.
In the end, those were the choices I made, though. There were positive trade-offs (like having more time to be present with my family) that I believed would off-set the negative ones. Looking back, I believe they have.
I lost my dad when he was fairly young, which shaped some of my thinking about life in general. One thing that experience left me with was this. Very few people, on their death beds are thinking, "I sure wish I could have worked more."
In the end, those were the choices I made, though. There were positive trade-offs (like having more time to be present with my family) that I believed would off-set the negative ones. Looking back, I believe they have.
I lost my dad when he was fairly young, which shaped some of my thinking about life in general. One thing that experience left me with was this. Very few people, on their death beds are thinking, "I sure wish I could have worked more."
1
We must include summer in this discussion-three months of no school and yes there are camps but the costs are affordable only for very upper middle class. As a grandmother I paid $500 for one week of a music camp that was not even the length of a work day.
26
"she has been paying the bills with a combination of family help, savings, child support from a former partner, temporary unemployment insurance and food stamps."
So it seems that this particular woman quit working for the same reason that men do: she has some other way to make ends meet. A U. Chicago economics professor wrote a great book in 2012 called The Redistribution Recession looking at the extent to which declining labor force participation could be attributed to means-tested welfare. It turns out that a lot of lower-income Americans, especially single mothers like Ms. Stevenson, have effective tax brackets of 80-100 percent. If they earn more, they get less from the government.
One thing that the government has demonstrated is that lower-income Americans respond to high marginal tax rates in the same way that higher-income Americans do: they cut back on work.
[Separately, if she had planned single parenthood with an eye to the bottom line, she wouldn't have had to work in the first place. The article says she had been working for $40,000 per year pre-tax. The Massachusetts child support guidelines, for example, give a plaintiff $40,000 per year tax-free in child support after a one-night encounter in with a person earning $250,000 per year.]
For whatever political reason we've created an economy where there are multiple paths to financial security and only one of those paths involves waged labor.
So it seems that this particular woman quit working for the same reason that men do: she has some other way to make ends meet. A U. Chicago economics professor wrote a great book in 2012 called The Redistribution Recession looking at the extent to which declining labor force participation could be attributed to means-tested welfare. It turns out that a lot of lower-income Americans, especially single mothers like Ms. Stevenson, have effective tax brackets of 80-100 percent. If they earn more, they get less from the government.
One thing that the government has demonstrated is that lower-income Americans respond to high marginal tax rates in the same way that higher-income Americans do: they cut back on work.
[Separately, if she had planned single parenthood with an eye to the bottom line, she wouldn't have had to work in the first place. The article says she had been working for $40,000 per year pre-tax. The Massachusetts child support guidelines, for example, give a plaintiff $40,000 per year tax-free in child support after a one-night encounter in with a person earning $250,000 per year.]
For whatever political reason we've created an economy where there are multiple paths to financial security and only one of those paths involves waged labor.
20
(The $40,000/year child support number above is for one child. Ms. Stevenson is described as having two children. If they were with different fathers she could get to $40,000 total if each earned closer to $100,000 per year ($117,647 per year in New York, where each would pay 17 percent of pretax income).)
3
My neighbor quit work (dental lab) in her late 40s due to a "sore shoulder." After hiring a lawyer and fighting for a couple of years she got disability. She recently bought a new $30,000-plus car and spends countless hours gardening. Somehow toting 40lb bags of mulch and heavy landscape stones and pails of annuals isn't a problem but getting up and going to work every day is.
I make a six-figure salary but I work six or seven days a week for it. She and her husband (who's on a federal pension and VA benefits, so they both get Tricare with no health insurance worries whatsoever) probably have half the income of me but a vastly higher standard of living. All on the dime of people like me who haul out of bed and hit the grindstone every day.
I make a six-figure salary but I work six or seven days a week for it. She and her husband (who's on a federal pension and VA benefits, so they both get Tricare with no health insurance worries whatsoever) probably have half the income of me but a vastly higher standard of living. All on the dime of people like me who haul out of bed and hit the grindstone every day.
26
It is a gimmick to which the government has not yet wised up.
3
Yes, let's analyze one drop of rain in a hurricane and come to that conclusion.
7
I don't think someone who has chosen to bear two out-of-wedlock kids should be able to decree that certain jobs are beneath her, and instead put out the paw to the rest of us to support her lifestyle choices.
33
You are fortunate to be part of a community with men that collectively value marriage, unlike Ms. Stevenson. Please also look up the phrase "reproductive coercion."
2
So that includes women who are abused by their partner or left by him/her? Or what if she had what she thought was a secure job and lost it? (Is YOURS secure? You sure?) Life happens. And so what -- is "wedlock" the requirement for loving and raising children? Who says? You? I'm happy for my taxes to support people in need rather than subsidize corporate kleptocrat. It's (still) a democracy -- we should ALL get a say in deciding.
7
May I also assume that you have no problem with the fact that it only takes 9 billionaires to equal the wealth of the bottom half of the population of this world?
Your comment on the "out-of-wedlock-kids" is why no one takes the anti-abortion crowd seriously.
Your comment on the "out-of-wedlock-kids" is why no one takes the anti-abortion crowd seriously.
6
Women also quit their jobs when the income generated is not enough to provide good daycare.
19
There's always the option of working hard and saving up for a few years before pregnancy, to cover daycare or maternity leave costs. Believe it or not, it's 100 percent possible to avoid giving birth before one has laid the appropriate groundwork.
22
Kosher: No it's not. Not when birth-control is not 100% effective.
You live in a simplistic and fact-free world.
Sad.
You live in a simplistic and fact-free world.
Sad.
5
As a woman who's been sexually active for 35 years, I can attest unequivocally that the combination of contraception, morning after pill and abortion is indeed 100 percent effective.
If a woman doesn't "believe in abortion" or otherwise want to avail herself of all of the above should the occasion arise, she should get her cult or other ideological advisors to pay for the rearing of the child, not her fellow taxpayers.
If a woman doesn't "believe in abortion" or otherwise want to avail herself of all of the above should the occasion arise, she should get her cult or other ideological advisors to pay for the rearing of the child, not her fellow taxpayers.
3
When many more people prepare themselves for a kind of work than there are jobs in that field, we will see these well-trained people with their hands and briefcases empty.
While I think there is plenty of room to make workplaces more gratifying and flexible for their employees, I think the kinds of work that will be available to people naturally depends on market demand- that is, what society is willing to pay people to do at the minimum wage out-of-work people will accept for that work.
Looking at this article, I imagine there are vastly more people with credentials in communications and social work than the economy can possibly absorb.
Excess supply of certain skills will either drive wages below the minimum many with those credentials are willing to accept or will retain a wage people are willing to accept but leave some people without any jobs.
I am unclear on how we expect governments simply to make the kinds of jobs people want. Are we thinking budget subsidies, in which case let's remember too that the finding would otherwise have gone to other public purposes which must be foregone?
Is one thing we expect from government to provide each of us the sort of job we decide to train for?
I think the childcare issue is a very different question.
While I think there is plenty of room to make workplaces more gratifying and flexible for their employees, I think the kinds of work that will be available to people naturally depends on market demand- that is, what society is willing to pay people to do at the minimum wage out-of-work people will accept for that work.
Looking at this article, I imagine there are vastly more people with credentials in communications and social work than the economy can possibly absorb.
Excess supply of certain skills will either drive wages below the minimum many with those credentials are willing to accept or will retain a wage people are willing to accept but leave some people without any jobs.
I am unclear on how we expect governments simply to make the kinds of jobs people want. Are we thinking budget subsidies, in which case let's remember too that the finding would otherwise have gone to other public purposes which must be foregone?
Is one thing we expect from government to provide each of us the sort of job we decide to train for?
I think the childcare issue is a very different question.
7
It's good to know there's at least one other person who feels like I do: that I didn't spend $25,000 on a master's degree and graduate with highest honors and a 4.0 GPA to wind up working at a gas station mini-mart. I believe my talents and skills have value, and settling for working at 5-Minute Oil Change goes against what I worked so hard for (and spent so much money on). Although I know it would anger the standard everyday conservative, I would rather be poor than work a job for which I am overqualified.
98
Sorry, but we all have to market ourselves any way we can, and if your master's degree isn't worth what you thought it would be, then you have to use whatever marketable skills you do have. If you're able bodied, nobody owes you a living.
17
Congratulations on your academic achievement. However, might your feelings be an example of "When the market gives you an answer you don't like, declare market failure"?
Depending on the school and major, there are a lot of degrees in the U.S. that leave graduates with lower pay than if they had not gone to college at all (partly because college grads will have less work experience). In Chile the government keeps good statistics on this and limits student loan amounts by school/major.
Depending on the school and major, there are a lot of degrees in the U.S. that leave graduates with lower pay than if they had not gone to college at all (partly because college grads will have less work experience). In Chile the government keeps good statistics on this and limits student loan amounts by school/major.
14
M. White, I can tell you from personal experience looking for a minimum wage job that if you have ever held down a job that requires a college degree or carries with it the requirement that you think you will not get past the application stage for a minimum wage job. If you apply at a store like Macy's online (which is the only way to apply) they force you to take a personality test to complete the "application". I did and I was turned down, by email, two hours after submitting the application. The only reason any person with any sort of intelligence makes it to the minimum wage job position is if they have no previous employment history, none. Otherwise they don't want to hire a person with a college degree and work experience.
It's not that you can't do the job: they don't want you no matter how desperate or willing you are to work. Conservatives don't understand that. They prefer to tell us that there is something wrong with us as applicants or as employees.
It's not that you can't do the job: they don't want you no matter how desperate or willing you are to work. Conservatives don't understand that. They prefer to tell us that there is something wrong with us as applicants or as employees.
6
Why is the unpaid labor that these women do to care for ill or elderly family members or young children, not considered "work" or "employment?". The reason that women can work outside the home at a higher rate in other countries, is because the government is paying for and doing the caregiving work there.
47
It is no coincidence that the nations with the most minimal safety nets like the US have less women in the work force. When work becomes a choice between paying your salary over to childcare while still being considered "unserious" towards work because you find ad hoc overtime office hours difficult--there are few options.
As an architect, I quit work upon having children when I made the calculation that my salary would go to childcare, transportation, work clothes and lunch money--and I would still be the primary parent responsible. I didn't love work that much to work for free, to be considered unprofessional in the office because I found overtime difficult, and scramble at home to be a good parent in my limited hours--all the time feeling I was not doing my best in either arena.
As an architect, I quit work upon having children when I made the calculation that my salary would go to childcare, transportation, work clothes and lunch money--and I would still be the primary parent responsible. I didn't love work that much to work for free, to be considered unprofessional in the office because I found overtime difficult, and scramble at home to be a good parent in my limited hours--all the time feeling I was not doing my best in either arena.
26
I'm a little puzzled by how Ms. Stevenson qualifies for unemployment insurance given that she voluntarily quit her job. Either the system is oddly generous, or there was some misrepresentation involved.
17
At least in some states, having to care for a relative counts as a legitimate reason to quit one's job, and qualifies you for unemployment benefits.
22
I know people who "volunteer" to be laid off.
A couple of years ago my cousin's wife had planned to quit her job at the beginning of the summer; she was a secretary in an industrial plant. Her husband earns about $50,000 working for a local municipality; they both are late 40s, no kids, paid for house and cottage, no debt whatsoever, tons of savings and the proceeds of the sale of his mother's house had just been banked.
To the wife's glee, the company announced layoffs and she volunteered. She went on to collect unemployment insurance for a year; it was sheer gravy. In fact they went to Hawaii for a three-week vacation in a villa, on some of it (from the eastern part of the US). They socked the rest away for future vacations.
I've long thought that since married couples can take advantage of tax breaks, perks, Social Security boosts, etc. that are enhanced due to marital status, that their joint filing status and thus joint income also should be considered when it comes to the dole. This couple didn't need UI benefits to survive any more than Barack Obama does.
A couple of years ago my cousin's wife had planned to quit her job at the beginning of the summer; she was a secretary in an industrial plant. Her husband earns about $50,000 working for a local municipality; they both are late 40s, no kids, paid for house and cottage, no debt whatsoever, tons of savings and the proceeds of the sale of his mother's house had just been banked.
To the wife's glee, the company announced layoffs and she volunteered. She went on to collect unemployment insurance for a year; it was sheer gravy. In fact they went to Hawaii for a three-week vacation in a villa, on some of it (from the eastern part of the US). They socked the rest away for future vacations.
I've long thought that since married couples can take advantage of tax breaks, perks, Social Security boosts, etc. that are enhanced due to marital status, that their joint filing status and thus joint income also should be considered when it comes to the dole. This couple didn't need UI benefits to survive any more than Barack Obama does.
13
It depends on the questions asked by the online unemployment questionnaire. I know of one person who collected unemployment while on an LOA. Another because the work load was so heavy, it required working on site seven days a week for 8-10 hours.
1
More and more "gen xers" are finding themselves as caregivers to both children and parents, yet there is no empathy in the workplace. My (now deceased) father suffered from Alzheimer's, and my mother could neither manage him on her own nor afford home assistance or a nursing home. It was up to me and my brother to balance the care along with our own families and lives. Yes, we did it lovingly. One winter morning, my father went missing. He just up and walked out the door with no coat. My mother phoned me in a panic. I called out sick and helped in the search for my dad. Luckily, he was found safe and sound. The next day, my employer called me in to his office for "a talk". He had learned the reason for my call out, and chastised me for using a sick day for a family matter. Then, further "explained" to me that my father was "not my responsibility, but my mother's" and that it was only fair that I be docked my pay for that day. That was my last day at that job. My only comment to him was "I hope no one ever has to 'explain' things to your daughter someday."
487
Lucky you! Quite a lot of us millennial and GenZ caregivers (born to older parents who did the "responsible" thing and waited until their 40s to have children) have been caregiving since our teens or earlier, so "our own families" rarely include partners or children. I'd love to have the other half of that caregiving sandwich, but it isn't going to happen! The diapers and temper tantrums in my life have always been and will always been those of my parents, as they slide further into dementia, the occasional stroke, and Parkinson's with all of its falls and injuries. What sane person would take that on with a partner?
17
I am not a gen-xer, but a baby boomer who had to quit two jobs - at different times - to manage parental issues. I used my 401 nothing plan to pay my bills as my parents lived on a very fixed income. Both my parents are now deceased, and I have basically nothing in my retirement account, so work I will until I drop.
22
Excellent story, exactly on point. A female President would understand this situation perfectly. That's why we need one.
16
My first reaction was anger that Ms. Stevenson feels entitled to a better job than Jiffy Lube or McDonald's, so she'd rather not work and have taxpayers subsidize her and her children. But, then I realized, if she did take a job at Jiffy Lube and McDonald's, we'd still be subsidizing her because they don't pay a living wage. Raise the minimum wage.
226
My reaction to your comment was anger when it seemed you would hold Ms. Stevenson to lower expectations than men in similar situations, but then I saw your realization that working full time at low paid jobs still doesn't solve the problem when entry level jobs don't pay anything close to a living wage. End corporate welfare. Raise the minimum wage.
6
But we'd be subsidizing her less.
6
If your first reaction to a black woman feeling entitled to a good job is anger, ask yourself why that is. Don't complain or talk to me about it...just ask yourself.
23
I see Sweden at the top of this list. I worked for a Swedish company for many years and although the company did not extend it's generous Swedish benefits to it's US employees, I became very aware of the types of things my Swedish co-workers particularly the women had. One biggie was that they had a year off and could come back part-time when they had a child, and they were guaranteed their jobs back.
250
Lot of good it did you.
5
It did Shiggy a lot of good. Unlike most Americans he was able to see that things could be better. At least he isn't swallowing the bilge that the GOP puts out with respect to creating a better health care system: fee for service is a failure as are narrow networks, co-pays, deductibles and other means of making sure that patients have some skin in the game. It's shortchanged us on needed medical care and that's a disgrace for a first world country that claims to be the richest one on the planet.
2
It seems Sweden and the other progressive European countries are the greatest countries in the world. Certainly not America. As long as we allow useless conservatives to keep us in the 19th century, things will never change for the better.
4
I stopped working, at 61, when I lost my job thanks to Republican criminality. In my rural area, there were no similar jobs nearby (within 50 miles) so I "retired." Nobody wants to hire a person in their late 60's.
31
There's always one commenter on every article about working women who has to come in and say a piece about how women should stay home. If you haven't seen that commenter yet, it might be you.
2
Ms. Stevenson is working full-time; she's just not getting paid to be a home health aide to her mother, a caregiver to her children, or a housekeeper and personal assistant to the entire family.
99
If you have a job writing for the Times it's easy to imply men are not doing any childcare. Go to a supermarket or park in flyover country during working hours and it won't take long to see them; Men with young children in tow.
8
I am the primary caregiver for my mother. It is generally assumed that only women are caregivers so when my wife is with me, other women talk past me to her about who they think is her mother. I find it more amusing than annoying and don't correct them.
11
Lately I've been wondering what the point of showing up to the office every day is after all. Money? So what? I'd rather be poor but free. We seem to be going on a crash course to oblivion, so why not enjoy the precious time we have on this planet then be stuck in a self imposed prison?
25
Agreed! My job at a big law firm has changed drastically over the past 4 years. The bean counters are in charge and have decided that NY attys are too expensive, so now I have to work "remotely" with attys in other offices and I've gone from being part of a team to being basically a floater. There is zero personal satisfaction in this-- and my supervisor says "but it's work!" Yup.... Don't tell anyone, but I am actively trying to get "let go" now so I can enjoy the rest of my life while I still have health and energy. Money isn't enough incentive to waste any more years on this!
17
When I was unemployed, no-one ever asked me if I quit looking for work, and of course, I hadn't. I still had to eat, and could not collect unemployment. I am sure there were many like me. I am tired of hearing there is a large swath of people who just gave up, as if it were a luxury they could choose. Ridiculous.
26
Excellent point; there are many unemployed "contracted workers" out there who don't qualify for unemployment benefits but who are, in fact, looking for work.
10
We didn't "give up" Rick. Many of us found ways in the underground economy. But we don't like to talk about it. Get it?
6
I agree with you Rick. I could not imagine having the option (i.e., luxury) to 'give up' without any catastrophic consequences. Unless, of course I didn't mind being homeless.
4
"growing percentage of Americans who are neither in a job nor hunting for one — a stubborn trend at the center of the deep dissatisfaction and anxiety about the economy’s future that helped catapult Donald J. Trump to the White House."
So who did this motivate to catapult DJT to the whitehouse? The people who gave up on working, or the neighbors of the people who gave up on working?
So who did this motivate to catapult DJT to the whitehouse? The people who gave up on working, or the neighbors of the people who gave up on working?
8
I think another issue is quality of care-- a daycare setting is never going to be the same as a 1:1 relationship with a parent. Many women quit work ot because they can't find childcare but because they want to be the carer of their own child.
70
Then they should not have had kids.
9
Ok, you try being a woman over 40 without children. Reactions range from "you poor barren woman" to "what kind of she-demon harpy rather work than have kids?"
19
Are you sure about that? Maybe it's closer to the truth that many women quit work for the reasons described in the article. Do men quit work because they want to be the carer of their own child? Are dual income couples not carers of their own children? These myths about working parents not "raising their own children" are part of the problem.
7
I quit teaching at the age of 50, right at the height of my earning potential, for two reasons. First, because my husband was also at his height, we no longer needed two paychecks especially since our oldest two had graduated college. Second, in 2011, even teaching jobs were hard to find. Therefore I reasoned it would be better for my position to be filled by a young teacher who needed it. Since then, I have found many ways of contributing to family and society, while also maintaining a level of freedom that has allowed us to do things we couldn't have done otherwise. Will my own SS check be considerably smaller when I retire? Yes. Will my own life be diminished as well because I quit? Definitely not!
14
Unlike a single person, you can file on your husband's SS account, so your benefit might not suffer as much as you portray.
18
You're very fortunate.
5
Not sure if you and your husband are close to retirement age, but I hope he has a good life and disability insurance policy, that you both have longterm care plans and that you can afford to max out your retirement investments. And that both your parents are not ever going to be disabled or have set up their own longterm care plans. It only takes one incident to blow your idyllic life into smithereens.
23
Lessons from the column:
* Don't have a mate
* Don't have children
* Don't have parents
Dependents are a millstone.
* Don't have a mate
* Don't have children
* Don't have parents
Dependents are a millstone.
16
I don't have any of the above, but still MUST work.
18
I am a man, 52, with oodles of education (3 degrees) in computer science and business administration, and years of professional experience, currently employed as a contractor, and I have been at times so frustrated that I have considered dropping out of the job market totally. The reason: employers are under so much stress to give employment to women that they simply pass over men and give work to women who are even less both in education and experience.
I will give one personal example and what I have observed. A company's HR inadvertently sent me a woman's entire offer package for a role that we both had applied for: she did not even have a college degree and only had experience in a similar role and the gave her a good salary as well. My other observations--- I see so many women working with me that it boggles my mind where are all the men. Often in meetings, I see a ration of 8 women to 2 men in managerial or team leader roles. It is incredible.
As I said earlier, I will possibly drop out of the "job" market for all practical purposes if I do not get a proper role after this one ends. I may look passively, as an after thought, for something to do but I won't go and fight for work.
I have to say, women have won in the job market... let them be the bread winners!
I will give one personal example and what I have observed. A company's HR inadvertently sent me a woman's entire offer package for a role that we both had applied for: she did not even have a college degree and only had experience in a similar role and the gave her a good salary as well. My other observations--- I see so many women working with me that it boggles my mind where are all the men. Often in meetings, I see a ration of 8 women to 2 men in managerial or team leader roles. It is incredible.
As I said earlier, I will possibly drop out of the "job" market for all practical purposes if I do not get a proper role after this one ends. I may look passively, as an after thought, for something to do but I won't go and fight for work.
I have to say, women have won in the job market... let them be the bread winners!
13
I very much doubt that employers feel "pressured" to give jobs to women, unless it's because they can pay women less (so it's more economical to hire them).
38
I will be honest, I question your accuracy in light of the huge disparities in the male-female ratio in IT.
I say that as someone who started in IT; continue to work in areas tangentially related to IT; is married to a man who has been in IT in a fortune 500 company for over twenty years and with a total of thirty years of IT experience; and have both a brother and a sister in IT.
Even in public entities where one would expect more consciousness for gender diversity, I still see far more men.
And the stats back me up:
https://www2.deloitte.com/global/en/pages/technology-media-and-telecommu...
In addition, I note you are criticizing experience versus degrees. My husband, due to financial restraints, did not compete his D.Sc. until 2015, over the age of forty. However, he beat out many people with degrees due to his superior experience. And that experience showed success. He holds four IT patents in current use. He's a white male.
And women are the bread winners, very often.
I say that as someone who started in IT; continue to work in areas tangentially related to IT; is married to a man who has been in IT in a fortune 500 company for over twenty years and with a total of thirty years of IT experience; and have both a brother and a sister in IT.
Even in public entities where one would expect more consciousness for gender diversity, I still see far more men.
And the stats back me up:
https://www2.deloitte.com/global/en/pages/technology-media-and-telecommu...
In addition, I note you are criticizing experience versus degrees. My husband, due to financial restraints, did not compete his D.Sc. until 2015, over the age of forty. However, he beat out many people with degrees due to his superior experience. And that experience showed success. He holds four IT patents in current use. He's a white male.
And women are the bread winners, very often.
22
Maybe you need to brush up on your people skills. The hard skills may get you in the door, but the soft skills move you in and up.
Not sure what companies you've been working in, but in many industries like healthcare, there are more women in the field, and they are often chosen to lead teams because they can facilitate and communicate well.
Not sure what companies you've been working in, but in many industries like healthcare, there are more women in the field, and they are often chosen to lead teams because they can facilitate and communicate well.
1
“Male participation was declining for a very long time, and no one seemed to care about it ..."
No kidding. They are, after all, just men. So who cares about them?
Check out Womenshealth.gov, a terrific federal site to help women with their health issues, connecting to several other government sites to help women.
Now, go to menshealth.gov....oh, wait, sorry. No such Federal site exists to help men with Their health issues.
1 in 7 men will get prostate cancer, according to NIH. Fewer women, 1 in 9, will get breast cancer. Yet breast cancer research funding is more than Twice as much as prostate cancer research.
Alas, so typical today.
No kidding. They are, after all, just men. So who cares about them?
Check out Womenshealth.gov, a terrific federal site to help women with their health issues, connecting to several other government sites to help women.
Now, go to menshealth.gov....oh, wait, sorry. No such Federal site exists to help men with Their health issues.
1 in 7 men will get prostate cancer, according to NIH. Fewer women, 1 in 9, will get breast cancer. Yet breast cancer research funding is more than Twice as much as prostate cancer research.
Alas, so typical today.
10
I wish one of these articles would explain how people can just not work and then live. What percentage claim a disability? Who goes to live with parents? How many are married and live on one income? etc etc
Otherwise who cares. Sure don't work and go take care of family.
Otherwise who cares. Sure don't work and go take care of family.
18
That's always my question too!
2
I know many women over 50 who were tossed out of their corporate positions and now can't find anything but $10 an hour jobs.
76
Taking care of a family may well be the optimal use of the available skills. Not everyone can be a high-powered executive, or even have a professional career. Most people, men and women, are quite ordinary and better suited to routine work. In that case, raising your children may well provide more satisfaction than a job in a restaurant or factory, and is probably more useful to society as well. There is nothing wrong with encouraging this.
The situation with men, particularly men in their 40s and 50s, is very different. They don't have much else to do, and will probably get into trouble if they don't have jobs.
The situation with men, particularly men in their 40s and 50s, is very different. They don't have much else to do, and will probably get into trouble if they don't have jobs.
8
I don't disagree with your comment, but it begs the question at the root of this issue - what is a target unemployment rate? Or better yet, how do we measure our employment in an actionable way?
@TJake - Well, there are countries where everyone from 5 to 90 is working every day to scratch out a living. I don't think we want to be like them.
On the other hand, there are countries where you go to the cafe at 3 PM on a weekday and it's full of people having a good time. Work? Who needs it?
Work serves an important function in keeping the population out of trouble. A well-ordered society should have all able adults doing something useful, even if it's not paid work.
On the other hand, there are countries where you go to the cafe at 3 PM on a weekday and it's full of people having a good time. Work? Who needs it?
Work serves an important function in keeping the population out of trouble. A well-ordered society should have all able adults doing something useful, even if it's not paid work.
3
OMgawd! Then... taking care if a family (or a parent) should be a job that is respected and listed on the resume. Men need baby-sitting, by going to a paid job HA HA
Economists that are to quote Krugman "mystified' why the labour participation rate has been falling need to memorize this sentence in the article:
"Both women and men complain they are unable to find full-time, secure jobs that pay a middle-class wage. "
When the job you can get after your $ 25/hr manufacturing job moved to Mexico, is a part time job as Walmart greeter your incentive to look for works.
It is that lousy jobs are replacing good jobs that is bottom cause for both women and men dropping out.
"Both women and men complain they are unable to find full-time, secure jobs that pay a middle-class wage. "
When the job you can get after your $ 25/hr manufacturing job moved to Mexico, is a part time job as Walmart greeter your incentive to look for works.
It is that lousy jobs are replacing good jobs that is bottom cause for both women and men dropping out.
60
Krugman, the former Enron consultant, is so wrong on so many things.
6
Enough with this jobs moved to Mexico nonsense. yes, some jobs left. THey left because the companies wanted to make more profits. Profits are what drive company behavior -- whether GM or a single person business. Find me five people who say, Dear, I want to start a business so I can create jobs. People who start businesses do so to make money first, first and first. Jobs are secondary and the source of their making profits. IF you want the companies that moved some jobs to Mexico or China or wherever to come back, rethink the emphasis on profits and getting rich. Every rich person could have less if they gave more. How would that work in an economy? I"m not sure, but that's what has to happen. Not complaining about jobs leaving for one place or another.
6
At last someone has written about what it is like for women when it comes to work, caregiving, and how inflexible and unforgiving the workplace can be no matter what level of the hierarchy a woman occupies. Men aren't expected to do the caregiving, pick the children up from school, respond to the emergencies of family members, or take sexual harassment on the job in stride.
At every place I've worked the men have congratulated for being sensitive to their wives when they, on occasion, pick their children up from school, leave early to attend a school function, take their parent to the doctor. Women are penalized for it. I've never seen a male colleague make up hours missed for these tasks. Women are told to make up the hours. I experienced this when I worked from my mother's home when she was recovering from a broken hip. My supervisor acted like he was doing me a favor but he did the same thing when his daughter needed heart surgery, a tonsillectomy, or was ill.
The double standard is alive and well when it comes to women and the workplace. Our skills are less valued even if they surpass those of the men. Our time is worth less. Every thing we do is looked at through the lens of gender rather than the value we add or the skills we have. No male seems to realize that most women have two jobs: their day job and the one they are assigned by virtue of being women, caregiving.
At every place I've worked the men have congratulated for being sensitive to their wives when they, on occasion, pick their children up from school, leave early to attend a school function, take their parent to the doctor. Women are penalized for it. I've never seen a male colleague make up hours missed for these tasks. Women are told to make up the hours. I experienced this when I worked from my mother's home when she was recovering from a broken hip. My supervisor acted like he was doing me a favor but he did the same thing when his daughter needed heart surgery, a tonsillectomy, or was ill.
The double standard is alive and well when it comes to women and the workplace. Our skills are less valued even if they surpass those of the men. Our time is worth less. Every thing we do is looked at through the lens of gender rather than the value we add or the skills we have. No male seems to realize that most women have two jobs: their day job and the one they are assigned by virtue of being women, caregiving.
260
Totally agree on every single point...except "No male seems to realize...".
Otherwise perfectly on point.
Otherwise perfectly on point.
7
A big part of this is that if a woman takes care of her own children--this does not add to the GDP figures. If she hires someone to do the same thing--this adds to the GDP. Remember that line," I don't work, I'm a homemaker" ? We do not value the work necessary to raise a family well. But a recent article in the NyT estimated that the work of family caregivers with older relatives is in the billions. Our accounting practices leads us to devalue and thus discount work at home.
19
This is not surprising. For the past 20 years too many employers have been treating their employees as disposable, temporary and only as needed; now workers are treating employers the same way. But if you go into any organization that's still running the old fashioned way - treating employees as valued assets, providing full-time jobs with benefits and advancement opportunities - you'll find workers who have been loyal employees for decades, some who work long past age 65, simply because they enjoy coming to work.
133
Is there actually any data to support this claim?
1
Ok gals: are you as brilliant as Marie Curie? Are you currently researching a cancer cure? No? Then why don't you get married and do something truly worthwhile instead of shuffling papers and making powerpoints for 9 hours a day? Get married, have children and raise up a beautiful generation of children who have mothers and fathers.
8
Hey, Andrew Smith, are YOU are you as brilliant as Marie Curie? Are you currently researching a cancer cure? No? Then why don't YOU get married and do something truly worthwhile instead of shuffling papers and making powerpoints for 9 hours a day? Get married, have children and raise up a beautiful generation of children who have mothers and FATHERS.
30
You're joking, right, Andrew?
12
An overpopulated, gasping, polluted planet needs more people eschewing motherhood, not choosing it as a safe haven from actually trying to make something of themselves.
19
Here are some of the issues imo..
1-From 1945 to 1965 we had no competition...The western world was destroyed and the east had a inefficient economical system.
2-We tried tricks like putting women to work, borrowing etc. to hide the fact from 1965-2008 that we had eco problems.
3-When the end game in 2008 people were in a panic. We quickly went democratic, then a republican congress, then re elect a dem now a rep. congress with a demagogue at the top.
Until we learn how to deal with the problems in a bipartisan way, we will continue to tread water..
1-From 1945 to 1965 we had no competition...The western world was destroyed and the east had a inefficient economical system.
2-We tried tricks like putting women to work, borrowing etc. to hide the fact from 1965-2008 that we had eco problems.
3-When the end game in 2008 people were in a panic. We quickly went democratic, then a republican congress, then re elect a dem now a rep. congress with a demagogue at the top.
Until we learn how to deal with the problems in a bipartisan way, we will continue to tread water..
40
Having economically independent women in the workforce isn't a "trick."
12
Thank you for your reply msd...let me explain further.
While allowing women to enter the workforce in great numbers in the 1970s was a good thing, it also masked the fact that our standard of living was going down unlike from 1945-1965 and helped hide that fact.
Then we started to spend, spend, spend, borrow , borrow, borrow, print money, turn wall street into a casino...ie more tricks to mask the fact our standard of living was going downhill.
Then 2008 came and we had no more tricks up our sleeve and had to fact reality.
While allowing women to enter the workforce in great numbers in the 1970s was a good thing, it also masked the fact that our standard of living was going down unlike from 1945-1965 and helped hide that fact.
Then we started to spend, spend, spend, borrow , borrow, borrow, print money, turn wall street into a casino...ie more tricks to mask the fact our standard of living was going downhill.
Then 2008 came and we had no more tricks up our sleeve and had to fact reality.
6
Concerning the article's second-to-last paragraph, it is upsetting that social welfare programs provide a disincentive to make more than a nominal amount of money before losing those benefits. Instead of evaluating the hard amount of money earned, the programs should review individual costs of living and expenses on a case by case basis.
For example, a family that makes $200,000, but has 10 children attending religious private school with tuition of $15,000 per child, and the family additionally has to make mortgage and car payments, etc., should still qualify for the same programs as "unemployed" people who work in a cash industry and don't report their income.
In fact, many times, the "unemployed" who make money under the table, with all of their free social subsidization, come out financially far ahead of families that make a lot, but have a lot of expenses after the I.R.S. takes 40% of the income.
For example, a family that makes $200,000, but has 10 children attending religious private school with tuition of $15,000 per child, and the family additionally has to make mortgage and car payments, etc., should still qualify for the same programs as "unemployed" people who work in a cash industry and don't report their income.
In fact, many times, the "unemployed" who make money under the table, with all of their free social subsidization, come out financially far ahead of families that make a lot, but have a lot of expenses after the I.R.S. takes 40% of the income.
4
A family that chooses to bring 10 children into the world should not be asking the taxpayers to assist with raising those 10 children. And they should especially not be sending those children to private school at $15,000 per kid per year, for a total cost of $150,000 per year, and then holding their hands out for the rest of us taxpayers to finance their household. How about two children? How about using birth control? Or, alternatively, figure out a way to make $1,000,000 per year AND THEN, proceed to have 10 children and send them to an expensive private school! Don’t ask taxpayers to subsidize a family’s poor decisions.
54
In no way, shape or form should we be rewarding, facilitating, subsidizing or easing the choice to have multiple children, let alone 10.
Producing another little western consumer is the least eco-friendly choice a human being can make, let alone producing 10 of them. That's obscene. Anyone that narcissistic and oblivious to the plight of the rest of the planet can lump it.
Producing another little western consumer is the least eco-friendly choice a human being can make, let alone producing 10 of them. That's obscene. Anyone that narcissistic and oblivious to the plight of the rest of the planet can lump it.
24
A family with ten children that earns $200,000 but insists on putting them in private school needs to take a financial remediation class. I thought the going line was that you shouldn't have children you can't afford.
35
The repeal of Obamacare and other ridiculous policies will make this problem worse as people's health deteriorates.
66
There isn't any "failsafe" for workers. If you get sick and cannot return to work within 6 months, you are laid off. Companies hardly have flexible hours to go to doctor appointments and deal with childcare issues. I have been in the workforce 34 years, as a single Mom. Daycare is extremely expensive. If you are working, your kids can't take advantage of after school sports. Neighbors are not going to pick up your kids from sports programs. Bosses wives do not work for the most part, so they are unsympathetic to your needs. Most people in your family are working and live far away, so they cannot help you. These are just a few of the issues that I have encountered during my working life with a child.
102
With the legions of "struggling single moms" out there and their endless complaints about how hard life is, I do not understand why more of them do not join forces.
If you have no helpful family or friends, and if your child's bio-father or sperm donor will not help with the issues you cite, why not find other single mothers in the same boat and pool resources? Rent or buy a communal dwelling, work opposite shifts so you can provide childcare coverage to one another, (which is what numerous married couples do, btw) and otherwise achieve economies of scale.
It seems to me that's a more practical and dignified solution than expecting the rest of us to pony up even more tax dollars to rectify the results of your poor planning and unfortunate lifestyle choices.
If you have no helpful family or friends, and if your child's bio-father or sperm donor will not help with the issues you cite, why not find other single mothers in the same boat and pool resources? Rent or buy a communal dwelling, work opposite shifts so you can provide childcare coverage to one another, (which is what numerous married couples do, btw) and otherwise achieve economies of scale.
It seems to me that's a more practical and dignified solution than expecting the rest of us to pony up even more tax dollars to rectify the results of your poor planning and unfortunate lifestyle choices.
9
And society still has systems such as school attendance that assumes every family has one parent whose primary duty it to the children and who does not have to conform to work schedules.
You have to love those school days that end early for "teacher services". Half-day attendance by students counts as a full day of instruction, hence the scheduling. Where are the children supposed to be the other half day if both parents are working?
You have to love those school days that end early for "teacher services". Half-day attendance by students counts as a full day of instruction, hence the scheduling. Where are the children supposed to be the other half day if both parents are working?
4
Children take time and money...who knew?
1
Krystin, I agree that we all want more high paying jobs. Did you vote for Trump? And its fine if you don't want to work at Jiffy Lube or McDonald's seeing as you have a Bachelor's degree. But please stay off the dole--keep your hand out of the pockets of working people!
10
She is a working person and paid into the same "dole" that you do (I presume) before her mother had a stroke. She's still a taxpayer whether she's working or not. She wants to work and likely will again when her mother doesn't need as much care or someone else becomes available to provide it. A job at Jiffy Lube would likely hurt her resume rather than help it if she plans to return to PR. This is why we have safety nets.
16
"Working people" can become "non-working people" in a second. All it takes is a sick child or parent, or getting laid off.
20
Jack,
Until you've worked an $8 an hour job as an adult, I would remain silent. Like all of us, she's paid tens of thousands of dollars in taxes over the years. The fact that she's getting, what, 3K or 4K of it back, is a problem for you? If you haven't devoted your life energy to being a serf (working 8 hours and making $64 for the day - gross), the best policy is to remain silent and contemplate the minimum wage laws.
Until you've worked an $8 an hour job as an adult, I would remain silent. Like all of us, she's paid tens of thousands of dollars in taxes over the years. The fact that she's getting, what, 3K or 4K of it back, is a problem for you? If you haven't devoted your life energy to being a serf (working 8 hours and making $64 for the day - gross), the best policy is to remain silent and contemplate the minimum wage laws.
50
Things were a little different for Erin Barnes when she left her advertising agency job to care for her ailing former super executive mother.
Things were different for Ms. Barnes when she then went back to school for training in a new fulfilling field.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/opinion/brenda-barness-wisdom-and-our...
I think that it is unfair to describe Ms. Stevenson and others like her as "dropping out". What she support she has is depleting. Her future looks grim. while the statistics painting a rosier picture do not reflect reality, as this article shows.
Things were different for Ms. Barnes when she then went back to school for training in a new fulfilling field.
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/24/opinion/brenda-barness-wisdom-and-our...
I think that it is unfair to describe Ms. Stevenson and others like her as "dropping out". What she support she has is depleting. Her future looks grim. while the statistics painting a rosier picture do not reflect reality, as this article shows.
6
This article illustrates many important issues in the reality of life. I can personally sympathize with being chronically ill and working and giving up opportunity in life to care for loved ones. I got the prize for this bitter trifecta. Most do not realize that sick people often lose out on better opportunity where the work, schedule and compensation would benefit their condition. This also happens to those caring for others. It is really a cruel paradox. However it is life and we cannot do much about it. Perhaps we can fix things here and there to make life a little easier, but something else is more worrying, the culture.
Living it I know from experience. Working to buy health insurance, there is no money for other things. Said insurance is not accepted even for the most minor test proscribed or the particular care you need. You pay out of pocket, yet are charged many multiple times the rate that an insurer would pay for the same things. In any other business this is illegal, see USC 15. So you work more, beat yourself up in the process and get sicker. Then you do not have the energy or ability to make the good impression that will get you a better job. You become relegated to physical work or harsh conditions which are contraindicated for a sick person.
No health reform really will not change this since food, housing and the obligations listed above do not change. What is concerning is that the struggle is no longer seen as worthwhile. Then what happens?
Living it I know from experience. Working to buy health insurance, there is no money for other things. Said insurance is not accepted even for the most minor test proscribed or the particular care you need. You pay out of pocket, yet are charged many multiple times the rate that an insurer would pay for the same things. In any other business this is illegal, see USC 15. So you work more, beat yourself up in the process and get sicker. Then you do not have the energy or ability to make the good impression that will get you a better job. You become relegated to physical work or harsh conditions which are contraindicated for a sick person.
No health reform really will not change this since food, housing and the obligations listed above do not change. What is concerning is that the struggle is no longer seen as worthwhile. Then what happens?
112
Revolution.
If people don't believe they can get ahead in the system that is, they opt out of the system.
People preach capitalism as if it is a biological construct encoded into our DNA, but that's not necessarily true. Yes, competition to establish a higher social status is consistent across human sapiens (it appears), but its expression is not only accumulating money. World history teaches that people have selected alternative systems, far less capitalistic than our own. Because as surely as we love competition, we love our children as well.
And many times, these transitions (i.e, to socialism) happened when large numbers of people find that they cannot advance in the system that exists and take care of their families, while another subset seems to advance. They are often violent. See - civil rights.
Ryan Republicans see Trump's marginal success as a stamp of approval for their Ayn Rand-capitalistic view, but interviews of many Trump supporters, including those on the ACA, show exactly the opposite. They want cheaper medical care with better access. To get that - considering the failure of the capitalistic system leading up to the ACA - you have to move toward socialism/government regulation rather than away. It's the government who can rein in people charging $900 for two epipens. Otherwise, corporations have no incentive but to charge what the market will bear, and people will bankrupt themselves to save their children.
If people don't believe they can get ahead in the system that is, they opt out of the system.
People preach capitalism as if it is a biological construct encoded into our DNA, but that's not necessarily true. Yes, competition to establish a higher social status is consistent across human sapiens (it appears), but its expression is not only accumulating money. World history teaches that people have selected alternative systems, far less capitalistic than our own. Because as surely as we love competition, we love our children as well.
And many times, these transitions (i.e, to socialism) happened when large numbers of people find that they cannot advance in the system that exists and take care of their families, while another subset seems to advance. They are often violent. See - civil rights.
Ryan Republicans see Trump's marginal success as a stamp of approval for their Ayn Rand-capitalistic view, but interviews of many Trump supporters, including those on the ACA, show exactly the opposite. They want cheaper medical care with better access. To get that - considering the failure of the capitalistic system leading up to the ACA - you have to move toward socialism/government regulation rather than away. It's the government who can rein in people charging $900 for two epipens. Otherwise, corporations have no incentive but to charge what the market will bear, and people will bankrupt themselves to save their children.
8
Chris, I hear your pain. I do know, from my own experiences with family illness and disability that after decades of struggling to help and to care against all the odds you do lose hope for a better life for yourself and the people you care for. Friends disappear, you stop going out for dinner, you feel that the only reason you are alive is to feed the money machine. People who don't know tell you how wonderful a person you are for being there, for caring but they never offer or are available to help when you truly need the help.
No one is there at 2 in the morning when you are awake and worrying about what the next hour, day, week, month or year will bring. You've sacrificed a big part of your life to care for someone or care for your own illness. But our society is not set up to deal with that. After awhile you stop being able to put on the front that is expected of you. I know. I often want to tell people this: NO, things are not okay even though I have a job and I'm making money. Why? I don't know if I'll ever be able to retire, take a vacation, or just be. It erodes you. My one solace is birding because I can be alone with nature but feel touched by it and the small feathered beauties I see.
No one is there at 2 in the morning when you are awake and worrying about what the next hour, day, week, month or year will bring. You've sacrificed a big part of your life to care for someone or care for your own illness. But our society is not set up to deal with that. After awhile you stop being able to put on the front that is expected of you. I know. I often want to tell people this: NO, things are not okay even though I have a job and I'm making money. Why? I don't know if I'll ever be able to retire, take a vacation, or just be. It erodes you. My one solace is birding because I can be alone with nature but feel touched by it and the small feathered beauties I see.
3
So woman who quit are swell, and men who quit are bad.
Thanks for that.
Thanks for that.
12
If the tax code was re-written to replace personal exemptions and standard deductions and unemployment payments were replaced with a universal basic income, this kind of thing would be more normal and less stressful.
People could care for those who need it. Employers would have to pay enough to make it worth working there. Piecemeal work, like Uber, could offer viable alternatives.
As to the ruining of incentives sometimes cited as a negative for universal basic income, why do rich people work?
We will someday get to universal basic income and universal health care. We should start positioning them as the backlash to the current administrations begins.
People could care for those who need it. Employers would have to pay enough to make it worth working there. Piecemeal work, like Uber, could offer viable alternatives.
As to the ruining of incentives sometimes cited as a negative for universal basic income, why do rich people work?
We will someday get to universal basic income and universal health care. We should start positioning them as the backlash to the current administrations begins.
24
Universal basic income is the future. It's unavoidable.
3
By and large, really rich people don't work as most of us define "work." They manage their money or other people's money. They direct their minions what to do while they sit back and think up more schemes to enrich themselves and their cronies. How many people have firsthand knowledge of CEO's and really wealthy people? I do and I will stick by opinion, granting a few exceptions.
9
@ JJ
Universal basic income and open borders....that should work out great in the future!
Universal basic income and open borders....that should work out great in the future!
1
Underemployment is a universal problem in the U.S. that is likely to only grow into a larger problem over time. It applies to both men and women and is in large part why the value of a college degree has come into question prompting the government sponsored website which essentially allows potential students to view the ROI they may receive from attending college.
I don't think the article really makes clear what the difference is between men and women when it comes to looking for work. Rather it seems to paint women as more likely to leave the workforce altogether to raise children or take care of family members.
I have to wonder if the man paying child support to help sustain the woman cited who will not accept low paying jobs is himself working a steady 6-figure job, or if he is doing whatever he can get to pay the bills.
There are many men who would not receive the same level of support as women do and as such do what they can if it comes near the breaking point. In American society, an unemployed man is often viewed as being lazy and a drain on society whereas a woman in financial distress is viewed as someone who is vulnerable and in need of support until she gets back on her feet or finds a partner to help her. I only speak from my personal experience so that is clearly anecdotal.
I don't think the article really makes clear what the difference is between men and women when it comes to looking for work. Rather it seems to paint women as more likely to leave the workforce altogether to raise children or take care of family members.
I have to wonder if the man paying child support to help sustain the woman cited who will not accept low paying jobs is himself working a steady 6-figure job, or if he is doing whatever he can get to pay the bills.
There are many men who would not receive the same level of support as women do and as such do what they can if it comes near the breaking point. In American society, an unemployed man is often viewed as being lazy and a drain on society whereas a woman in financial distress is viewed as someone who is vulnerable and in need of support until she gets back on her feet or finds a partner to help her. I only speak from my personal experience so that is clearly anecdotal.
54
To be clear, the child support is not to "sustain the woman" but goes to the needs of the child the woman is caring for. The man in question would be on the hook for that cost whether the woman was working or not.
6
Maybe these unemployed men can start preparing to work in the nation's largest and growing sector: healthcare. Patient Care Assistants, Medical Assistants, nurses, radiology and pharmacy techs. That's the future of jobs at the moment and they are there for the taking. One hospital where I've worked started to look internationally for nurses. If it's not the career for them, then at the very least, maybe more of these men could step in to help lighten the burden of child and elder care. Money isn't the only resource that men are capable of providing.
7
I also think that women are more willing to do more different kinds of jobs than men are. It's often been reported that men balk at taking "pink collar jobs" in health care and other services traditionally dominated by women. Forever, women have done what it takes to raise their kids then the fathers of those children do not or cannot, in fact, pay child support. Women simply are more vulnerable and historically have had to be tremendously resourceful.
2
"Nor are they whiling away their jobless hours playing video games, which some economists suspect is helping to lure men away from the time clock." -- Which I'm inclined to agree with since I have an interest in MOGs. The majority of men I know are either still students, men who are unemployed or unemployable, or retired. All of those men that fall within those categories listed tend become more closed minded and belligerent the longer they have been unemployed, which is why I have noticed them. All that aside though, here is what I find interesting about the chart in the article:
Sweden – Single Payer since 1955
Switzerland – Single Payer since 1994
Norway – Single Payer since 1912
Denmark – Two-Tier since 1973
France – Two-Tier since 1974
Germany – Insurance Mandate since 1941
Netherlands – Two-Tier since 1966
Spain – Single Payer since 1986
Canada – Single Payer since 1966
United Kingdom – Single Payer since 1948
Greece – Insurance Mandate since 1983
Australia – Two-Tier since 1975
Japan – Single Payer since 1938
USA – Insurance Mandate since 2014? - Really? 2-years and now dismantling.
Ireland – Two-Tier since 1977
Chile – Two-Tier since 1989
Italy – Single Payer since 1978
Mexico – Free Market system
New Zealand – Two-Tier since 1938
Sweden – Single Payer since 1955
Switzerland – Single Payer since 1994
Norway – Single Payer since 1912
Denmark – Two-Tier since 1973
France – Two-Tier since 1974
Germany – Insurance Mandate since 1941
Netherlands – Two-Tier since 1966
Spain – Single Payer since 1986
Canada – Single Payer since 1966
United Kingdom – Single Payer since 1948
Greece – Insurance Mandate since 1983
Australia – Two-Tier since 1975
Japan – Single Payer since 1938
USA – Insurance Mandate since 2014? - Really? 2-years and now dismantling.
Ireland – Two-Tier since 1977
Chile – Two-Tier since 1989
Italy – Single Payer since 1978
Mexico – Free Market system
New Zealand – Two-Tier since 1938
45
Switzerland is not single payer, it's multipayer with an insurance mandate.
1
"The Swiss have compulsory health insurance which must be provided by a non profit company. However the same company will have a sister company nearby which will offer you for profit insurance for extra services. Thus multiple organizations will be paying the bills."
So you are correct and I stand Corrected. Switzerland is a Two-Tier Health Carer system. Perhaps I was confused because a person who is residence for 90 days must join, there's no opting out.
So you are correct and I stand Corrected. Switzerland is a Two-Tier Health Carer system. Perhaps I was confused because a person who is residence for 90 days must join, there's no opting out.
I would also argue that the UK's system is moving towards two-tier. There are many services that would be considered standard in the US, such as screening colonoscopies, that are simply unavailable t on the NHS.
Additionally, unlike here, they empower and encourage hospitals to check immigration status of ALL patients, even laboring women, and report them to the Home Office. Not something the US should emulate.
But I certainly agree we need a better system.
Additionally, unlike here, they empower and encourage hospitals to check immigration status of ALL patients, even laboring women, and report them to the Home Office. Not something the US should emulate.
But I certainly agree we need a better system.
As with most stats, the same basic numbers can be arranged to support any position. They can be presented to indicate a positive or a negative. This is especially true with unemployment numbers.
It is nice to read of a person who is this concerned about the physical well being of family members. People say that they care, but this young woman also walks the walk at her own financial loss. Kudos to her.
It is nice to read of a person who is this concerned about the physical well being of family members. People say that they care, but this young woman also walks the walk at her own financial loss. Kudos to her.
4
Did you notice on the graph that the top countries for employing women are those with childcare and great medical care? Coincidence? I don't think so.
157
Why didn't coverage of the recent election focus much more on people's fears about the economy? This woman is qualified and wants to work, if only she could find a job that pays enough to hire someone to help care for her mother and children. Jiffy-Lube jobs will not do the trick. The Citibank report discussed at Davos predicted that 52% of industrial jobs in the US, 70% in China, will disappear over the next twenty years, replaced by automation. What will happen to all the underemployed or unemployed people who used to be truckers, etc. in the era of self-driving everything? Vonnegut's Player Piano is coming true. The global elite in their bubble may end up like Marie Antoinette at Versailles. That's why there was discussion of a universal guaranteed income. Smart conservatives know how well "Let them eat cake" works when there's no bread.
210
And what if the person she hires to care for her mother ALSO has a mother who needs care? And so on -- like those endless photos of a mirror reflected in another mirror reflected in another mirror, to infinity.
10
Universal basic income is the right course.
5
I find Mr. Eberstadt's comment troubling i.e. that "Hardly any men who have dropped out say it is because they are helping with children or other family members," He does not reference any empirical data so it is hard to know on what he is basing his comment. Men may not offer caregiving as a response to inquiries as to why they are not in the labor force, but this does not mean they don't participate and provide family caregiving at a much higher rate than in the past. Studies have consistently shown that men are participating in care giving roles at a much higher rate than in the past.
18
Because men are "whiling away their time playing video games" instead of supporting their families. Once again the NYT continues striving to show just how sex is the and condescending to men it can be.
15
The more important point here is the when women or minorities suffer joblessness, you don't see the "white working class" men getting angry and fighting for change on those demographics behalf and wind up voting for a guy like Trump. This speaks to their sense of entitlement and resentment at some lost prominent status. White men's motto is, "I'm alright Jack!"
16
We need more social support, medical support, childcare support in this country and we need to get over this idea that "those people" (read poorer, minority) will unfairly take advantage.
24
This article explains perfectly the intersection of rights and social problems at the heart of the Women's Marches--and, I hope, predicts the future of feminism.
10
Childcare and caring for parents should not burden women alone. If Ms. Stevenson has to take care of her mom by herself because she is the only child or because her mom was previously taking care of her two children, the children's father should help out.
Many mothers with very young children decided that the inflexible hours and salaries from less than satisfying jobs were not enough compensation for the cost of a baby sitter/day care, commutation, wardrobe needs. It became an easy decision to stay home and raise their own children or take care of aging parents. This is not new; it's been going on for at least two generations. Affordable day care for all would have solved some of this but Republicans have consistently voted this down as "creeping socialism."
417
Having kids is an optional, voluntary lifestyle choice. It can be planned for and saved for in advance. That's what my parents did 55 years ago -- and that's what today's would-be parents can do.
People who aren't prudent enough to plan and save can lump it, as far as I'm concerned, and put up the with the lifelong consequences of their poor choices. They had the same opportunity I had to choose childfreedom and chose otherwise.
Don't come picking at my pocketbook to solve their problems. I already pay thousands of dollars more in taxes each year than the procreators at the same income level, despite putting a far lighter footprint on society's health, education, criminal/civil court, welfare and other infrastructure, not to mention the environment.
(And spare us the 'my kid will pay your social security' hogwash -- they'll barely cover cash flow for their own parents' benefits, and that's IF, and it's a big IF, they don't end up low IQ, addicted, criminal, teen parent, disabled, unemployable or otherwise an economic net loss.)
People who aren't prudent enough to plan and save can lump it, as far as I'm concerned, and put up the with the lifelong consequences of their poor choices. They had the same opportunity I had to choose childfreedom and chose otherwise.
Don't come picking at my pocketbook to solve their problems. I already pay thousands of dollars more in taxes each year than the procreators at the same income level, despite putting a far lighter footprint on society's health, education, criminal/civil court, welfare and other infrastructure, not to mention the environment.
(And spare us the 'my kid will pay your social security' hogwash -- they'll barely cover cash flow for their own parents' benefits, and that's IF, and it's a big IF, they don't end up low IQ, addicted, criminal, teen parent, disabled, unemployable or otherwise an economic net loss.)
5
Even if we have affordable day care, what about quality affordable day care? Without a raise in the minimum wage, what kind of workers will be hired? If you do raise the minimum wage, can a day care center afford to hire enough workers? It's a conundrum. And what day care is out there now is very very expensive.
This is why I will be taking care of my grandson, not a day care center. And at 65+ years, I was ready to retire from the work world anyway. I don't want him left to cry in his crib because there aren't enough hands available to soothe him or change his diaper. But should I fall ill, then what will my daughter do? Another conundrum.
This is why I will be taking care of my grandson, not a day care center. And at 65+ years, I was ready to retire from the work world anyway. I don't want him left to cry in his crib because there aren't enough hands available to soothe him or change his diaper. But should I fall ill, then what will my daughter do? Another conundrum.
4
A third of the workforce works nonstandard shifts. How would daycare help them? You need to think about nurses, bus drivers, doctors, and xray techs, too. Why do we not matter in your worldview?
5
The story here revolves around a one-two plot of, on the one hand, an overly rigid, under-paying labor market and, on the other, the ill health and lack of quality medical care for a shockingly large number of Americans. Talk about a mismatch. Employees who need flexibility and truly affordable health insurance are confronting employers who offer as little of both as possible. The result is personal loss and social decay as far too many adults in their supposedly prime years languish at home watching TV, or if they are women, taking care of family members who aren't working either.
The solutions are government regulations over wages and working conditions (such as the rule Obama enacted requiring overtime pay that Trump just overturned), better access to healthcare not tied to working (don't hold your breath), and last but not least, a massive campaign to change how Americans eat, exercise, and take care of themselves. The latter issue is not something even being discussed, except at the margins.
One wonders how much of the national sour mood and levels of despair are related to poor health? There is a close correlation between areas with the worst - and these are really appalling - levels of obesity, disease, addiction, and early death and areas that voted for Trump. Food for thought.
The solutions are government regulations over wages and working conditions (such as the rule Obama enacted requiring overtime pay that Trump just overturned), better access to healthcare not tied to working (don't hold your breath), and last but not least, a massive campaign to change how Americans eat, exercise, and take care of themselves. The latter issue is not something even being discussed, except at the margins.
One wonders how much of the national sour mood and levels of despair are related to poor health? There is a close correlation between areas with the worst - and these are really appalling - levels of obesity, disease, addiction, and early death and areas that voted for Trump. Food for thought.
297
We live in a society that is at odds with its rules of law and societal expectations. Women are expected (and needed) 1) to bear children to add to the future labor force, 2) find employment and 3) making sure that children are well cared.
1. There are no national standards for family leave
2. Women are traditionally underpaid and overextended at their job
3. Pre-K starts at 4, does not cover the full work day and it's illegal to leave your children alone while trying to make a living.
1. There are no national standards for family leave
2. Women are traditionally underpaid and overextended at their job
3. Pre-K starts at 4, does not cover the full work day and it's illegal to leave your children alone while trying to make a living.
5
Agree.
Except that Michelle Obama did try a conversation regarding eating right, exercising, and taking care of ourselves. She tried to start that conversation for the next generation so that it might have a lasting impact. And people complained that she was just trying to control how we raise our children.
Except that Michelle Obama did try a conversation regarding eating right, exercising, and taking care of ourselves. She tried to start that conversation for the next generation so that it might have a lasting impact. And people complained that she was just trying to control how we raise our children.
10
YES. Reading right now: "The Spirit Level: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better" by Richard G. Wilkinson and Kate Pickett, 2009.
As an anthropology student many years ago, I assisted in paleopathology research documenting the visible differences in health, life span, and even height amongst some ancient societies that had extremes of inequality. It's not just prehistoric "peasants" compared to "noblemen" any more, it's ordinary working Americans compared to the 10% who hold most of the wealth, and none of the moral decency to be part of a greater good.
As an anthropology student many years ago, I assisted in paleopathology research documenting the visible differences in health, life span, and even height amongst some ancient societies that had extremes of inequality. It's not just prehistoric "peasants" compared to "noblemen" any more, it's ordinary working Americans compared to the 10% who hold most of the wealth, and none of the moral decency to be part of a greater good.
1
Tied in with this revealing article is the question, not addressed, where are the husbands and partners of the women forced to quit work due to family responsibilities.
Strong family units seem to be disappearing in our country and that trend is overrepresented in the black segment of our population.
I really would like to know why this is and, more importantly, what can be done about it. People like Ms. Stevenson cannot be expected to do it all.
Strong family units seem to be disappearing in our country and that trend is overrepresented in the black segment of our population.
I really would like to know why this is and, more importantly, what can be done about it. People like Ms. Stevenson cannot be expected to do it all.
20
The topic of the article, Bill, is lack of good employment. Economics. If people got paid well, maybe they'd have stronger family units.
6
"Strong family units seem to be disappearing in our country and that trend is overrepresented in the black segment of our population."
What is your evidence supporting that statement? Did you read the article? The article talks about women carrying for their parents, husbands and children. Isn't supporting your family by caring for them the definition of a "strong family unit?"
You seem to be implying that black men are responsible in some way for the lack of employer benefits and flexibility and for our lack of decent social programs to support people who need help. What is your evidence and what is your point?
What is your evidence supporting that statement? Did you read the article? The article talks about women carrying for their parents, husbands and children. Isn't supporting your family by caring for them the definition of a "strong family unit?"
You seem to be implying that black men are responsible in some way for the lack of employer benefits and flexibility and for our lack of decent social programs to support people who need help. What is your evidence and what is your point?
2
Many of them are incarcerated. There have been many stories, including the NYT, detailing the huge disparities between whites and blacks in our prisons. Read them.
Over half of blacks don't have a high school diploma and little hope of a job without one.
Many black men carry with them throughout their lives a record of minor drug offenses.
Hiring of black men, or rather their non-hiring, is systemic. They still seldom come into contact with those who do the hiring at companies large and small, and therefore cannot make the connections necessary to achieve employment.
Why don't they then help out at home. As the article states, that's not just a Black thing. It's a man thing.
Over half of blacks don't have a high school diploma and little hope of a job without one.
Many black men carry with them throughout their lives a record of minor drug offenses.
Hiring of black men, or rather their non-hiring, is systemic. They still seldom come into contact with those who do the hiring at companies large and small, and therefore cannot make the connections necessary to achieve employment.
Why don't they then help out at home. As the article states, that's not just a Black thing. It's a man thing.
3
Let's admit that women don't "stop working" when they leave employment. They trade one responsibility for another. Ms. Stevenson is filling in gaps of our societal neglect.
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And if she didn't do this, for whatever reason, Ms. Stevenson would called a neglectful parent, a bad daughter, a freeloader, a moocher, or some other name that we reserve for women who do not do what we, as a society, expect them to do. Women are supposed to do the caregiving, make money, raise the children, and sacrifice for everyone but themselves. When a person is forced to give up a job because the alternatives are worse, why do we tell her that she needs a husband, or has to work. If the choice is between caring for her family ( a job all by itself) and not having choices for good care be affordable and available when needed, most women will choose the caring and give up the job. That means women are doing a lot of work for free. If it was men doing it we'd see to it that they got whatever they needed to succeed.
16
boy ain't that the truth? i just recently lost a ladyfriend of over 10 years. she retired from a local bank, proceeded on in helping her daughter raise four children, and was diagnosed with cancer that I personally think was precipitated by stress.
5
Exactly.
I love the visual of the ranking of the US to the rest of the world. This country has so many issues to deal with. It seems the only ones that get any money are the ones important to rich white men.
How to get them interested in solutions that do not benefit them directly? I think the fate of a lot of our society has to do with that question being answered.
I see the homeless people living on the street. If not for the $19 million tax credit extended to a certain real estate business man, how many new pairs of shoes could be purchased, new coats, really, homes for the homeless. I see the actions of that real estate business man, and everyone like him who goes begging to the politicians for money, as taking the shoes off of that homeless man, taking the new coat off his back.
The shoes and the coats that people like me pay their taxes for. Given away in one fell swoop by a politicial with a pen. And now the "empty your pockets for me" brigade are in charge and making decisions that affect us all.
What really can we do?
How to get them interested in solutions that do not benefit them directly? I think the fate of a lot of our society has to do with that question being answered.
I see the homeless people living on the street. If not for the $19 million tax credit extended to a certain real estate business man, how many new pairs of shoes could be purchased, new coats, really, homes for the homeless. I see the actions of that real estate business man, and everyone like him who goes begging to the politicians for money, as taking the shoes off of that homeless man, taking the new coat off his back.
The shoes and the coats that people like me pay their taxes for. Given away in one fell swoop by a politicial with a pen. And now the "empty your pockets for me" brigade are in charge and making decisions that affect us all.
What really can we do?
17
My experience has been that it takes two to raise children, especially when a crisis comes up. Where is her husband?
22
A former partner is helping her out. But with a college degree she should be able to find a decent job. The problem in America is that we don't believe in a supporting families or people with anything that makes a meaningful difference in their lives. State supported high quality all day child care made available to all regardless of income is something that no one wants to fund. It's too much like communism or socialism. It's better to have parents who want to work unable to work. The same goes for care for elderly or handicapped adults. America is not a caring country. Ask anyone who has fallen between the abyssal cracks in the system.
And why by the way, should she have a husband? What if she's a widow, divorced, or a single parent? Does that make her and her children less worthy of help? Men are viewed as heroic when they raise children on their own. Why should a woman be looked at in any other way?
And why by the way, should she have a husband? What if she's a widow, divorced, or a single parent? Does that make her and her children less worthy of help? Men are viewed as heroic when they raise children on their own. Why should a woman be looked at in any other way?
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The husband possibly got tired of all the nagging that she was working and bringing home the bacon. So, he bolted. I have known a few male acquaintances who have done this. When women work and start bringing home a "paycheck" regardless of how large it is, they end up becoming quite domineering, thinking they can do it alone, and belittling their husbands: I have seen this and that is why many men just leave.
1
Marigrow, it's none of our business where her husband is! Too many people are caught in this woman's position; we need deep going reforms in our political and economic systems to help people out of these ruts and to create work opportunities so people won't be getting into these situations in the first place.
17
This article is a just a flat out doozie. I cannot believe someone finally wrote an article that covers the doesn't-pay-well-enough-I-have-sick-or-little-people-to-care-for reason and that it's all about women doing it while working in the same article. The further down I read the more bugged out my eyes. Talk about the truth. Knocked the ball out of the park, sista.
18
I was hoping to read something useful. This is a human interest story, erroneously filed under Economy.
Finally, an article that acknowledges that the 4.7% unemployment rate is entirely misleading.
139
The true figure is nowhere near the 90M people out of work that our "President" claimed during the campaign. Now the White House won't respond to questions about the unemployment number.
Because the liar-in-chief is making it impossible to talk about anything rationally.
Because the liar-in-chief is making it impossible to talk about anything rationally.
5
I'm sorry to help you become more disgruntled than you already are, JJ. But if a person of whatever age chooses not to work, then they should not be considered in the unemployment rate. If you are going to include everyone of legal age in the unemployment rate then you must start at age 14 and continue counting everyone, regardless of any other factor, until the legal age of retirement. That means you MUST include those who are disabled, mentally ill, some drug addicts, some criminals, and all of those who are paid under-the-table. Lump them right in with the guy whose wife goes to work while he sits on his as complaining about losing his job 15 years ago. If he had wanted to work, he would have found work. When I wanted to work but couldn't find any I started mending clothing, wash and folding and ironing, cleaning other person's homes, and cooking meals for others. Later in life when I became disabled, I started typing letters for independent contractors. If those same men had wanted to work they would have found or made plenty of work. They are just lazy and don't want to work. That's all. I won't include any one who is not engaged in finding a work that they can do but won't consider working in other way than they prefer to work as unemployed. Lazy? Yes. Unemployed? No.
4
Still tons better, don't you agree, than just over 8 years ago when, under Bush, we were Losing 750,000 jobs per month and the stock market was losing 50% of its value.
9