In United States v O'Brien (1968) the Court upheld the constitutionality of a law against burning a draft card. The court recognized O'Brien's right to protest and that his conduct was expressive, but concluded the law justified by a significant government interest unrelated to the suppression of free speech and was content neutral and was tailored toward that end. As President Obama stated, the police and fire department can prohibit setting fire in some areas to copies of translations of the Quran, if there was a content-neutral law against knowingly setting such fires. It is not entirely obvious what the content of expression would be in burning a flag. For example, there are laws against mistreating the Confederate flag.
Shinny Object tweeting.
Pay no attention to Trump's many, many, many conflicts of interest and broken promises.
Pay no attention to Trump's many, many, many conflicts of interest and broken promises.
Heh. When someone burns an American Flag, he or she is not burning "the" flag, but "a" flag. Or, more accurately, a copy of the American Flag. "The" flag is an abstraction, a metaphorical symbol of the nation, which is itself an abstraction. The "American" continent does not call itself the American continent, so anyone can call it anything they want. We are free to call it Throckmorton or Jedediah if we want. "America" is an arbitrary imposition upon the land, enforced, to be sure, by the institutions and minions of the state.
Before 1492 no one even knew "America" existed. The "New World," consisting mainly of north and south "America," was named after Italian cartographer Amerigo Vespucci. The country could as easily have been named Lucinoa, had Mr. Vespucci been named Lucino instead of Amerigo.
Howsomever, we have Donald Trump as president-elect of "America." In "Mexico" piñatas of Trump have become big sellers. Amazon is selling them here, to rising popularity. I wonder what Trump would like to do with kids who beat Trump piñatas. Whatever he thinks, if you are thinking of burning "the" flag, how about a Trump piñata instead? https://www.buzzfeed.com/karlazabludovsky/heres-a-short-film-about-a-mex...
Before 1492 no one even knew "America" existed. The "New World," consisting mainly of north and south "America," was named after Italian cartographer Amerigo Vespucci. The country could as easily have been named Lucinoa, had Mr. Vespucci been named Lucino instead of Amerigo.
Howsomever, we have Donald Trump as president-elect of "America." In "Mexico" piñatas of Trump have become big sellers. Amazon is selling them here, to rising popularity. I wonder what Trump would like to do with kids who beat Trump piñatas. Whatever he thinks, if you are thinking of burning "the" flag, how about a Trump piñata instead? https://www.buzzfeed.com/karlazabludovsky/heres-a-short-film-about-a-mex...
2
Would burning the Presidential flag be okay?
Tweet Governance. The GOP leadership seems bent upon destruction. Our civil rights, our freedom, our paid-for benefits such as Social Security and Medicare. Our public education, our financial security and on and on. With the Supreme court selection in this person's hands we can expect another Thomas. With the GOP's "leader" we can expect continued political/business mix I guess we get the best government money can buy. The bait and switch game is on!
First, this is no different than another presidential candidate wanting to reverse Citizens United.
Second, I believe the flag burning case before the Supreme Court a few years ago was 5-4 decision with Scalia in the majority. With a new Supreme Court justice coming soon, expect to see the flag burning case back before the court. If the previous flag burning decision is reversed, Trump may get his wish.
Second, I believe the flag burning case before the Supreme Court a few years ago was 5-4 decision with Scalia in the majority. With a new Supreme Court justice coming soon, expect to see the flag burning case back before the court. If the previous flag burning decision is reversed, Trump may get his wish.
2
My father lost his citizenship after WWII for the offense of serving in the Canadian Army, where he served in each of the Four Battles of Monte Cassino. He has described the "re-naturalization" ceremony that he was required to participate - in the political storm that arose following a wave of mass revocation of citizenships - as the most humiliation experience of his life.
It is the height of hypocrisy for Mr. Trump, who has never made a sacrifice in the name of his country - and bragged about tax avoidance as "good business" - to flippantly suggest that the citizenships of people should be revoked simply because they care so deeply about this country that they are compelled to make the strongest statements against its government.
It is the height of hypocrisy for Mr. Trump, who has never made a sacrifice in the name of his country - and bragged about tax avoidance as "good business" - to flippantly suggest that the citizenships of people should be revoked simply because they care so deeply about this country that they are compelled to make the strongest statements against its government.
1
If Trump wants to play this silly nationalistic game then, as a man the same age as he, I'm thinking we should put draft dodgers in jail as well. Right, Donald?
What a buffoon a minority of the people have elected to govern all of us! Even Scalia sided with the right to burn the flag as a means of protest, i.e., protected political expression. Perhaps Trump would also like to replace Francis Scott Key's "National Anthem" with Merle Haggard's "Okie from Muskogee."
Used to be a politician had to hold a press conference to maybe get his ideas and his name out there and influence the public. Thanks to the ridiculous adoring following of Twitter, all Trump has to do is peck out his venomous rantings on his phone while sitting on the toilet in the middle of the night. His fans suck up the lies and the waiting press spreads them faster than a California wildfire. We're stuck with this maniac and his right wing destroyers thanks to phone and internet "news" that is about as deep and newsworthy as the ubiquitous pictures of food on Facebook. Our brave new world doesn't seem to care about facts so much - just convenience and interactive websites. Funtimes!
1
PLEASE stop enunciating every DT tweet. Really. He has several million followers, I suppose, but when the tweets are published and broadcast "like news" well, his following reaches more than 100 million ears. SCOTUS has already made the punishment of flag burning moot. Can't we ignore some of this crap?
2
A guy who just settled up paying 25 million out of pocket for defrauding his own customers who had to sue his sorry rear to get their money back doesnt get to preach.
About anything.
About anything.
2
Well ta ta first amendment.
It has been said better by others but really I prefer a country where one can burn the flag and worship the constitution to a country where one can burn the constitution and worship the flag.
Long Live the First Amendment!
Long Live the First Amendment!
I believe the preferred way to dispose of old worn out US flags is by burning.
Does this mean a combat veteran who displays the flag often would lose his citizenship if he burns the old flag? Oh what a tangled web.....
Does this mean a combat veteran who displays the flag often would lose his citizenship if he burns the old flag? Oh what a tangled web.....
1
This is correct. Disposing of the flag in any other way is considered a desecration.
... we weave, when first we practice...
... we weave, when first we practice...
I hang a flag out every year. The sun fades it. On Thanksgiving weekend, I burned it, which is the accepted method. I will burn its replacement, too.
Hint: don't buy those fake Dacron/Poly things - they stink. Cotton only.
Christopher
Hint: don't buy those fake Dacron/Poly things - they stink. Cotton only.
Christopher
3
The flag-burning flap is just a distraction from Trump's "terrific deal" for the Carrier workers, which he mysteriously won't release any details about. Yes, he really does think we're all that stupid.
1
The rights that should be taken away are those of - - venture capitalists, of predatory lenders, of those who engage in leverage buyouts, of those who use the letter of the law, devoid of ethics, of those who use bankruptcy laws - - use the aforementioned self-serving tactics to line their own pockets.
1
Very creepy. Dictator-inclined Dude's nocturnal pacing high in his gold-plated ivory tower, mainlining all of the post-factual fear peddled to his base by his fierce competitor in the biggest buffoon billionaire carnival barker contest -- yes, the "I was Bannon before Bannon was Breitbart", the serial accoster and all around GOP media marauder Murdoch happily feeds the orange beast with trumpian "tall" truths for twitter trolling and warmed-over, anger merchant, oligarchs apprenticing in that little thing called governance. Always follow the big money. I initially thought for a minute after reading the story about the Indian Supreme Court ordering standing for national anthem before any film showing and trump story declaring forfeiture of citizenship for burning flag that the articles were a goof.
I sincerely hope every Trump voter is in the process of composing a heartfelt note of apology to each and every one of his/her fellow Americans. There will be no stopping the new administration from destroying our country, of course, but an apology would be nice.
5
Any flag that needs legal protection is not worth the cloth it is made from.
Corollary:
Any clown that does not understand freedom is not qualified to be 'the leader of the free world'
Corollary:
Any clown that does not understand freedom is not qualified to be 'the leader of the free world'
2
So we had TWO "clowns" running because Hillary, in case you didn't know, tried to pass bills in 2005 and 2006 that would have criminalized flag burning. These attempts were denounced all over - even here in the NY Times.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
But I thought that Trump supporters were avid supporters of the first amendment especially when it came to them expressing their views that most call racist but they call free speech and being "un-pc". Shouldn't they support ALL free speech?
3
Charlie Savage gets the reasoning of Vance v. Terrazas right but is wrong in saying the Supreme Court "said [Terrazas] was still a citizen." The Court there did not rule on whether Laurence Terrazas had or had not effectively relinquished his citizenship; rather, it clarified the governing statutory and constitutional law and then remanded the case to the lower courts. (The trial court had held that Terrazas had efffectively relinquished his citizenship, the appeals court reversed the trial court, and the Supreme Court "reversed" the appeals court. So, even if the Supreme Court's ruling were interpreted as deciding whether or not in fact Terrazas was still a citizen, the better interpretation of the case would be that the majority ruled he was NOT still a citizen.)
David B. Cruz
Professor of Law
University of Southern California Gould School of Law
Los Angeles, CA 90089
David B. Cruz
Professor of Law
University of Southern California Gould School of Law
Los Angeles, CA 90089
1
I am constantly amazed by those that use comments on any story to bash the president-elect rather than respectfully discuss the issues raised by the article.
Let's recognize the fact that no candidate received a majority of votes for president and we will most likely live in a divided society for some time to come. Let's try to win others to our point of view by discussing the pros and cons of the issue, rather than ranting on one side or another.
Let's recognize the fact that no candidate received a majority of votes for president and we will most likely live in a divided society for some time to come. Let's try to win others to our point of view by discussing the pros and cons of the issue, rather than ranting on one side or another.
2
The flag is a symbol of the Constitution.
How can a symbol be more important than what it represents?
How can a symbol be more important than what it represents?
2
If people do not get upset watching the Flag of The USA burning, why then does waving the confederate flag upset people?
1
Bceause these are two sepaate issues. Burning the US flag is an epression of the rights protected by the flag. The confederate rag is nothing more than a show of racism of a bygone era where slavery was rampant and was defeated as such. Capish now?
4
It was done deliberately to distract attention from the Mnuchin appointment among his rabid base. Get them riled up over an emotional (non)issue, and they will totally forget about the fact that we now have a Goldman Sachs insider as Treasuray Secretary. Trump is playing the media for chumps.
5
A forcefully extracted love turns into solid contempt the minute it leaves its rightful agent.
Does anyone care? Typical Trump misdirection to take eyes off his failings and feed meat to the base. But the issue is 50 years old, and has been solved. Trump seems to live in a time warp, or assumes his Trumpkins do.
3
I am forever grateful that the Constitution guarantees freedom of speech, including burning the flag as a protest. However, I don't think burning the flag is a good form of protest. It's kind of a horrifying image, and, for me at least, works against the protest, even if I agree with the cause. Flying the flag upside down is a symbol of distress, but that's supposed to be done only in cases of imminent danger. For me, the best expression of free speech is actual speech, because the word and and pen are both mightier than the flame.
What I find most horrifying in this instance is the President elect's ignorance of, or disregard for, the Constitution. If he actually tries to strip citizenship or jail someone for burning a flag, perhaps then we actually should fly the flag upside down.
What I find most horrifying in this instance is the President elect's ignorance of, or disregard for, the Constitution. If he actually tries to strip citizenship or jail someone for burning a flag, perhaps then we actually should fly the flag upside down.
4
Either way, in this election, the President elect would show ignorance of, or disregard for, the Constitution.
Hillary Clinton, in case you didn't know, tried to pass bills in 2005 and 2006 that would have criminalized flag burning. These attempts were denounced all over - even here in the NY Times. Yet this fact seems to have been oh so conveniently forgotten in the rush to rewrite history.
Some choice we had this year.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Hillary Clinton, in case you didn't know, tried to pass bills in 2005 and 2006 that would have criminalized flag burning. These attempts were denounced all over - even here in the NY Times. Yet this fact seems to have been oh so conveniently forgotten in the rush to rewrite history.
Some choice we had this year.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
His tweets matter only to his $16 million followers so let them and them alone be the only recipients of his nonsense. ALL of his tweets - no matter whether they seem to be meaningful or not. The media should NOT cover them.
1
Give me a break... for every imbecile posting "is Trump not aware that you burn a flag to dispose of it?": There's a big difference between dissidents burning our flag and veterans and/or patriots burning the flag ceremonially. (and I use the term 'dissidents' loosely because I doubt many who are burning the flag right now have a reason for doing so beyond "I don't like Trump")
Furthermore, the U.S. flag is only legitimately burned when the flag is no longer in good condition for display - not because you want to throw it away.
If you're not aware of how a flag is properly burned, which apparently many here are not, here is how a U.S. flag is properly disposed of: Start by folding the flag in a customary triangle manner. Then prepare a large enough fire to burn the flag completely. Next place the flag in the fire and while it burns, those attending the ceremony should salute and/or recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Finally, the ceremony ends with a moment of silence, and the ashes of the flag are buried.
As far as Trump's remarks are concerned; I prefer a president that respects our flag than one who is indifferent towards the disgraceful action of burning it because the flag burners don't like the Constitutionally elected Trump.
Trump, and those who agree with him, are equally entitled to an opinion as you are - the fact that you don't agree with that opinion is quite irrelevant. At least that's what I've been told for the past 8 years while Obama has been in office.
Furthermore, the U.S. flag is only legitimately burned when the flag is no longer in good condition for display - not because you want to throw it away.
If you're not aware of how a flag is properly burned, which apparently many here are not, here is how a U.S. flag is properly disposed of: Start by folding the flag in a customary triangle manner. Then prepare a large enough fire to burn the flag completely. Next place the flag in the fire and while it burns, those attending the ceremony should salute and/or recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Finally, the ceremony ends with a moment of silence, and the ashes of the flag are buried.
As far as Trump's remarks are concerned; I prefer a president that respects our flag than one who is indifferent towards the disgraceful action of burning it because the flag burners don't like the Constitutionally elected Trump.
Trump, and those who agree with him, are equally entitled to an opinion as you are - the fact that you don't agree with that opinion is quite irrelevant. At least that's what I've been told for the past 8 years while Obama has been in office.
A Court ruling may forbid this action now but the new Court under Trump could overturn this ruling. Then the flag burner could be found guilty of treason and stripped of their citizenship. Burning the flag indicates hatred for the United States of America as a country. Anyone who feels this way doesn't belong here. Our courts are much too hesitant to convict people of treason. One should be able to express dislike for government representatives or government policies, but not for the country itself.
2
So, what do you think of all those 47 Republican senators who wrote that letter to Iran in an attempt to sabotage a nuclear arms treaty. Hey, I have an idea. Why don't Republicans do to Donald tRUMP what they did to Bill Clinton in an attempt to impeach him. I bet if tRUMP were to take an oath and get asked about HIS sex life he'd be impeached in about 15 minutes, since you can time his meltdowns with a stop watch and have plenty of time left over!
With a new Supreme Court you ideas are moot at best.
Everyone who is concerned about flag burning -- there were two instances just last year! -- should tune into youtube.com and search for Congresswoman Sherri Davis. It's kind of unbelieveable and raises doubts.
In other news,
CIA's Brennan Says Tearing Up Iran Deal Would Be 'Folly'
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2016/11/30/us/politics/30reuters-usa-trum...
CIA's Brennan Says Tearing Up Iran Deal Would Be 'Folly'
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2016/11/30/us/politics/30reuters-usa-trum...
4
Why does Trump think he can Tweet out anything that comes to his mind at the precise moment he feels it or lie repeatedly via Twitter ? Apparently he has decided that Tweeting will be his primary source of communication with the American public .
This is a very sad commentary on how this man will alter the very integrity of the office of the President , one that needs to be handled with grace and professionalism .
I'm sorry to say , but this is what happens when less than the majority of Americans close their eyes to the monster they saw campaigning . Everyone always had the same response ." Oh he won't be that way when he's President . There will be good people around him that will be guiding him and he won't act that way." Yeah right ..
He will provide the worst possible role model for our children and that is the saddest thing of all .
This is a very sad commentary on how this man will alter the very integrity of the office of the President , one that needs to be handled with grace and professionalism .
I'm sorry to say , but this is what happens when less than the majority of Americans close their eyes to the monster they saw campaigning . Everyone always had the same response ." Oh he won't be that way when he's President . There will be good people around him that will be guiding him and he won't act that way." Yeah right ..
He will provide the worst possible role model for our children and that is the saddest thing of all .
8
Trump says Scalia is his ideal justice. He's what Scalia said about flag burning:
"If it were up to me, I would put in jail every sandal-wearing, scruffy-bearded weirdo who burns the American flag. But I am not king."
Neither is Trump
"If it were up to me, I would put in jail every sandal-wearing, scruffy-bearded weirdo who burns the American flag. But I am not king."
Neither is Trump
6
Please Please Please stop reporting on every tweet. They are obviously just his in the moment musings that more than likely will amount to nothing (since he has repeatedly shown the attention span of a gnat and zero adherence to his own past statements). His supporters understand this - they don't take him literally, but agree with his general sentiment. News outlets like The Times should really stop making a huge issue out of every idiotic tweet that he will forget seconds after he's tweeted it. Please focus on the actual things that are occurring and not all the meaningless talk.
1
Trump is not going to be the leader of the free world or the leader of the strongest nation on earth. America has lost that status by electing a foolish liar. Plain and simple. When most of what he says can be ignored because he has no clue what he is doing, then the America president, and thus, America, has become irrelevant to the rest of us.... or at best, a joke. Please stop reporting on his every twitch and twitter. It demeans us all.
7
I would like to propose any presidential candidate or a newly elected president lose their citizenship for not making their tax returns available for public scrutiny to determine any potential conflicts of interest while governing. Far more important and relevant than someone legally expressing their dissent by burning a flag.
4
If they were encouraged to serve by Bush II, then vent upon him and those who encouraged them to join. They are the ones responsible for these grievous wounds of the heart, the mind, the limb, soul and toppled the dreams of those who waited for your return.
It was not our President of today who lusted for war.
And still you won't see Obama, will you, when he visits.
And you WILL vote for a man who has promised guns and bombs to Make America Great Again.
Where is Reason, the gift of the Lord to us? How many of us turn to it when it could counsel us wisely? With reason comes responsibility. Only then can we hope to make the right choice. Then, if we choose wrongl we have only ourselves to blame.
Where is your courage to accept responsibility?
Perhaps it was their fathers, their mothers, friends, siblings, girlfriends-teachers-boy scout-leaders…Was it THEY who urged this course of action?
Did they vote for Trump out of reason, or because because he seemed to promise them “justice” , a promise upon which he will stand to justify his promises of more death and getting even.
Yes. It is hard to blame those truly responsible. Those you voted for, your parents prized, your brother who chose to enlist first, the Principle who called out your name the day your high school celebrated your enlistment upon graduating…
Hard, indeed, to acknowledge that they were wrong.
Then, look in the mirror. Take responsibility.
And thereafter, to “teach your children well."
It was not our President of today who lusted for war.
And still you won't see Obama, will you, when he visits.
And you WILL vote for a man who has promised guns and bombs to Make America Great Again.
Where is Reason, the gift of the Lord to us? How many of us turn to it when it could counsel us wisely? With reason comes responsibility. Only then can we hope to make the right choice. Then, if we choose wrongl we have only ourselves to blame.
Where is your courage to accept responsibility?
Perhaps it was their fathers, their mothers, friends, siblings, girlfriends-teachers-boy scout-leaders…Was it THEY who urged this course of action?
Did they vote for Trump out of reason, or because because he seemed to promise them “justice” , a promise upon which he will stand to justify his promises of more death and getting even.
Yes. It is hard to blame those truly responsible. Those you voted for, your parents prized, your brother who chose to enlist first, the Principle who called out your name the day your high school celebrated your enlistment upon graduating…
Hard, indeed, to acknowledge that they were wrong.
Then, look in the mirror. Take responsibility.
And thereafter, to “teach your children well."
Do I understand this right? Trump and his supporters are rabid about protecting the second amendment, and are fine with doing away with the first amendment?
Terrifying.
Terrifying.
6
Do any of you realize Trump was simply TROLLING Hillary Clinton and the Flag Protection Act of 2005 that she co-sponsored with Republican Bob Bennett?
1
Funny how he has voiced absolutely no objection to a KKK procession marching down Main Street, USA. (Probably because these days that's basically what a Trump Rally looks like.)
5
I've a better idea. Tax evaders should lose their citizenship rights and the biggest tax evader of all, Donald Trump, should lose his citizenship. Tax evaders actually hurt the country. Flag burner don't.
7
My Dear friends, If really some one unable to distinguish a flag from a piece of cloth,
then do one thing , burn a Islamic flag and put it on FB. You will then surely learn what a Flag means and what a piece cloth.
Or if i spit on your father photograph in front of you , how you feel..
Certainly it's not your father just a piece of paper is not it :)
Just ask a veteran who fought just to see the flag fly inside enemy Territory.
He will say it's a piece of cloth or some thing else.
then do one thing , burn a Islamic flag and put it on FB. You will then surely learn what a Flag means and what a piece cloth.
Or if i spit on your father photograph in front of you , how you feel..
Certainly it's not your father just a piece of paper is not it :)
Just ask a veteran who fought just to see the flag fly inside enemy Territory.
He will say it's a piece of cloth or some thing else.
1
I wouldn't burn anyone's flag.
But Taps makes a good point about the superiority of American liberty, protecting people's right to free speech, even by burning a symbol of that liberty.
Start undermining the liberty and you devalue the symbol.
But Taps makes a good point about the superiority of American liberty, protecting people's right to free speech, even by burning a symbol of that liberty.
Start undermining the liberty and you devalue the symbol.
3
typical bullying by the Donald who ignores the Constitution and Supreme Court rulings to distract all of us from his war on the progress of the last 40 years
6
The duty of any president is detailed in the Oath of Office. It clearly states, "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
How is someone totally unfamiliar with the Constitution going to fulfill his sworn duty?
How is someone totally unfamiliar with the Constitution going to fulfill his sworn duty?
8
The same way someone who is "totally familiar" with the Constitution ignores the Constitution. I know. That never happens unless it's a Republican in office.
1
Quite.
When he swears to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution", will the audience be able to keep a straight face?
Or will there be more forbidden laughter, as when he said, "Nobody has more respect for women than I do".
When he swears to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution", will the audience be able to keep a straight face?
Or will there be more forbidden laughter, as when he said, "Nobody has more respect for women than I do".
3
Apparently many of you Liberals out there seem to forget that Hillary Clinton when NY Senator proposed a ban on flag burning as well.....but alas......your long term memory has been fried by the Kool Aid.......
2
Not all of us have. She was wrong, he is wrong. Next issue please....perhaps one that's actually important to running the government and not something that is the result of the mental flatulence of the Donald's impulses to share with the rest of us on Twitter.
3
DrC: A more pertinent question would be, how many "liberals out there" supported Clinton's initiative? Assuming you have characterized it correctly, I haven't bothered to go back and check.
And why the continued fixation on comparing Trump with Clinton? At this point, Trump is the President-elect, Clinton is a private citizen. Why aren't you comparing him with, for example, John Kasich? At least he is a governor.
And why aren't you celebrating your "victory?" Because guaranteed it will be short-lived, unless you are one of the lucky 1%, who will profit from the Republican agenda at the expense of the middle and working classes.
And why the continued fixation on comparing Trump with Clinton? At this point, Trump is the President-elect, Clinton is a private citizen. Why aren't you comparing him with, for example, John Kasich? At least he is a governor.
And why aren't you celebrating your "victory?" Because guaranteed it will be short-lived, unless you are one of the lucky 1%, who will profit from the Republican agenda at the expense of the middle and working classes.
5
And you conveniently forgot that not only was the law was not passed; but also Congress during that time - when Republicans held a majority - did not challenge the Supreme Court's decision earlier that flag-burning is protected by the First Amendment. Or doesn't tRUMP even know what the First Amendment is. Maybe he SHOULD borrow the Constitution from Mr. Kahn and actually read it.
4
Never forgetting his consultation with the leader of Russia while he was still vying for the presidency of the US, I hope!
Our Nation has never had such a Bête Noir before and I hope never will again!
Our Nation has never had such a Bête Noir before and I hope never will again!
3
Umm, in case he doesn't know, one of the ways to properly dispose of an American flag is to burn it.
6
For years, we 'dispose' of our American Flags through Veterans Organizations. Without knowing for sure, I believe the Vets 'burn' them. Should they lose their citizenship? or be put in jail.
Why is it so necessary for the media to respond to all the Twitter nonsense of Trump?
Why is it so necessary for the media to respond to all the Twitter nonsense of Trump?
5
I, for one, support any American's right to burn a flag. However, I also fully support Donald Trump's being allowed to express his opinion about that right. That said, if he got his way (which he very well eventually might with a Trump Supreme Court) it would be the first real setback toward limiting our constitutional right of free speech in many generations.
2
Hillary Clinton has been criminalized extra judicially buy the formation of a public consensus of impression leading nationwide crowds to chant, "lock her up". Consciousness lowering has gone too far. Those who want lower taxes and less regulation have won it all. Now what are they after. The very ideas of law, contract, stari decisis , and citizenship? ENOUGH!
2
Hillary, in case you didn't know, tried to pass bills in 2005 and 2006 that would have criminalized flag burning. These attempts were denounced all over - even here in the NY Times. Yet this fact seems to have been oh so conveniently forgotten in the rush to rewrite history.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
So do you support criminalizing flag burning Reverend, or just taking a gratuitous swipe at Hillary?
1
I support sharing the truth. Either way, in this horrific election, we were bound to get someone who has displayed disregard for the constitution.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
The Supreme court may have decided a lot of things in the past. A new Supreme court could easily undo the past. Nothing is written in stone. His tweets are not against the law. The liberals aren't burning books but they suppress the news via the main stream liberal media. Much like the NYT who when it comes to certain stories will not let you comment. Things maybe changing.
Please stop making such a fuss over every "out-ra-geous" lie that Mr Trump squeezes off. Isn't it clear by now that this is precisely how he got all that free air time through the primaries and the campaign? He is just seeking to dominate the daily news cycle--and, thanks to you, succeeding. Instead, how about taking a page from the right's book and starting up an echo chamber that sustains an examination of Trump's national and worldwide conflicts of interest? And don't stop when he threatens to sue--if the evidence is there, let him try taking it to court. Get him obsessed with it, and you'll have turned the tables.
4
In Trump's America if you burn a flag he wants you to lose your citizenship, but if you burn a cross he wants you to be one of his senior advisers.
7
If Trump wants to outlaw flag burning, how about if we throw people in jail for any other offensive uses of the flag such as wearing US flag underwear? When Trump feels the need to tweet, he should self-impose a period of time to consider his actions instead of simply acting on purely emotional impulses.
1
The very idea of revokable citizenship is now put in play to be kicked around radio and social media. Thus becomes thinkable. Action against native Americans and informal immigrants is likely imminent, perhaps even by active duty Army units on American soil. Detention center business stocks are up. "Lock her up" crowds sounded like national lynch mobs. Citizenship is absolutely not revocable, law not suspendable, and morality not optional. Worried.
1
I don't want to "get used to Trump".
1
Trump has broken so many laws: dealing with Cuba during the embargo, sexual assault, peeping Tom at pageant contestants as young as fifteen, giving political bribes out of charitable foundation money, denying housing to minorities. Trump spent his life breaking the law and all he can think about is how to punish other people.
6
Perhaps "you cant punish people for expressing dissent" but there must be limits on forms of expression. Assault (as seen in some Trump rallies) is a form of expression not protected by the First Amendment. Burning tires in the street, throwing rocks or molotov cocktails at police during demonstrations are forms of expression. The line between legal and illegal 'forms of expression' are completely open to interpretation and therefore two of Trumps Supreme Court picks and flag burning will be outlawed.
Flag burning is never acceptable and regarding immigration related anger it's beyond counter intuitive - it's spitting at the entire country with a despicable temper tantrum.
1
He would have to begin by defining "flag." Would his law protect pictures of the flag on the mastheads of some newspapers? Would depictions of the flag have to be carefully removed from tattered old books bound for pulping? What about all those little paper flags on toothpicks at July 4th picnics? We could have quite a bonfire of the flags without ever touching an ordinary fabric flag made for a flagpole.
2
Here's an idea: Ask Hillary Clinton how her proposed laws against flag burning, proposed in 2005 and 2006, defined a flag.
Hillary, in case you didn't know, tried to pass bills in 2005 and 2006 that would have criminalized flag burning. These attempts were denounced all over - even here in the NY Times. Yet this fact seems to have been oh so conveniently forgotten in the rush to rewrite history.
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Hillary, in case you didn't know, tried to pass bills in 2005 and 2006 that would have criminalized flag burning. These attempts were denounced all over - even here in the NY Times. Yet this fact seems to have been oh so conveniently forgotten in the rush to rewrite history.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
As Justice Brennan wrote in 1989, "The Government may not prohibit the verbal or nonverbal expression of an idea merely because society finds the idea offensive or disagreeable, even where our flag is involved.". Mr. Trump should learn to value the entire Constitution, not just the second amendment.
6
Never cared much for those that don't understand the functional use of symbols. But right about now all I want to do with a flag is fly it upside down.
4
It should be a law that the President Elect has to read the actual Constitution before taking office. This man is so ignorant it is scary.
11
By-the-way, burning the US flag is a respectful way of retiring it. Burning the US Flag in protest is protected by the 1st amendment, like it or not, it’s OK. In Iraq they did so often and in one famous video the flag burning hammer-head dribbled gasoline down his sleeve and set himself on fire proving that burning is also a respectful way to retire some protesters. (please don't quote me.)
When it comes to one of our fellow citizens doing it, let ‘em go. It doesn’t hurt my feelings much as it doesn’t change me one speck. I am still an American and love this place with all its warts and dumb things it does. Granted, the protesters are doing something many –me included- find abhorrent but the Supreme Court says it’s covered by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution so they can do that stuff, it’s settled law. This is America. Don’t let The Trumpet tell you what America is. Ignore the idiots doing this stuff. It’s often youthful exuberance and they will mature. If they aren’t harming someone their dumb behavior is protected. DON’T make eye contact with the knuckleheads and be sure they don’t cause a more widespread fire than just the flag. Shake your head and walk away.
When it comes to one of our fellow citizens doing it, let ‘em go. It doesn’t hurt my feelings much as it doesn’t change me one speck. I am still an American and love this place with all its warts and dumb things it does. Granted, the protesters are doing something many –me included- find abhorrent but the Supreme Court says it’s covered by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution so they can do that stuff, it’s settled law. This is America. Don’t let The Trumpet tell you what America is. Ignore the idiots doing this stuff. It’s often youthful exuberance and they will mature. If they aren’t harming someone their dumb behavior is protected. DON’T make eye contact with the knuckleheads and be sure they don’t cause a more widespread fire than just the flag. Shake your head and walk away.
5
This is what a true American has the right to do... protest in a civilized manner, albeit uncommon; Which includes burning a flag... This act does not necessarily imply a lack of patriotism but a fundamental disagreement with the regime that governs the country at that particular time. Holding true to the values of the country is a matter general consensus, personal beliefs and perceptive, and the notion of flag buring may be that way to represent a need to change current policy or else is a symbol of the the violation and disgrace to the past ideals this country has protrayed. This is more than a proper response.
2
Aren't our prisons full enough already?
4
A piece of fabric has more rights than some human beings. How pathetic of Trump.
7
When I read of Trump's outrageous and stupid rants, I imagine I'm listening to a "political discussion" in a biker bar. One week of good behavior after the election and the insanity starts again. Do his supporters realize what they've done here? Are they really that naive? They have cemented in place the rule by the 1% (of which they are definitely not members). And after watching his little minions - like Pence (and Romney, who denigrated the 47% and is welcomed back onto the reservation)- who are educated and know better reveling in their newly acquired power. Trump and his proposed cabinet no more represent the interests of the working class who put him into power than the man-in-the-moon.
1
Those who burn the flag are the lowest of the low. Along with those who defend them.
MACK from Detroit Mi. has a more intelligent response- see below.
"But he also called Mr. Trump’s proposal “beyond the pale.” What isn't beyond the pale with this incoming administration? Americans will lose their health care, and with the recent additions to his cabinet Medicare will be a shell of its former insurance policy, the NSA and Defense picks are "all war all the time isolationists" so our children and grandchildren will be dying for wars only to make money for the military-industrial complex including the possibility of WWIII, and individual liberties are out the door. I hope the angry white men and women are content with the single issues that they elected this guy for, because the majority of Americans will not be.
1
The press is still missing it with Trump. Here 's how I see it. He's good at working social media. He tosses out a fastball of yellow journalism. The press jumps on it with too many words for the average social media follower. You end up looking dislotal. He rewards loyalty, retaliates against disagreement. The authoritarian continues to discredit the press. He avoids substantive press engagements by tweeting. Beyond that you're pulling attention from the real news. If you feel you've got to cover the tweets then cover them when you can after more important news is aired or has a chance to be read. Your response can be a day later. The earth will not end and you'll give more weight to the coverage that informs and less importance to Trumps twitter rants. Group replies to twitter in a weekly article rather than taking up valuable space with it. Didnt the press notice how much space the Clinton email coverage got rather than policy? Keep to informing the public. That's where you can do the best job. Treat the tweets like outbursts from your toddler
4
The idea of renouncing my citizenship never occurred to me before I read this article. Sort of like a verbal flag-burning, quitting a nation outright makes a very loud statement. I am reminded of the Vietnam War when so many young men moved to Canada. Or when millions of Irish and eastern Europeans moved to America. I've gone to live overseas for extended periods of time throughout my life, and certainly don't regret the thrill and learning. Living in Marxist West Bengal in the 1980s taught me the importance of freedom. Living under the rule of General Avril in Haiti taught me many harsh lessons. Now is an important time to stay and fight for our precious remaining freedoms.
1
Burning a flag is insignificant compared to Trump's desecration of American standards.
8
In 2005, Sen Hillary Clinton wrote a bill asking for jail time and a fine for burning the flag.............................so?
Good point. I am a stalwart Hillary supporter but that was one of her more groan-worthy pander-bear moments.
Look. A. Squirrel. Please....Stop paying so much attention to the tweets from Donald Trump.
1
Remember Watergate and Deep Throat?"FOLLOW THE MONEY!" That is still true of Trump. These tired old distractions - flag burning, tweets, etc. - are all distractions to his tip toe-ing along the edges of corruption and criminality. Follow the money and hit him where he lives.
2
He meant of the Confederate flag, the flag of the alt-right.
1
Electoral College: Save us!
3
Thanks to the loser Trump, the Democrats have a golden opportunity to gain control of both the Senate and, fingers crossed, the House in 2018. Such a Democratic victory could help neutralize the Trump threat to our nation. But that campaign should ideally start now, not after Trump's sure-to-be-ghastly inauguration.
3
With that we will already have lost our rights.
1
This headline is a perfect example of the Times coverage and its normalization of Trump. Lose rights!? Please, call a spade a spade. He said flag burners should lose their citizenship. That is radical and goes much further than the vague and sanitized "lose rights." Times, don't sanitize what this man says and does. He is an autocrat intent on tearing apart our democracy, with the media the first to fall in line. It is giving in to turn Trump's radical statements into vague euphemisms. Don't do it.
4
How surprising that Trump has no clue about the legal precedent here...
Did Hillary? Hillary, in case you didn't know, tried to pass bills in 2005 and 2006 that would have criminalized flag burning. These attempts were denounced all over - even here in the NY Times. Yet this fact seems to have been oh so conveniently forgotten in the rush to rewrite history.
Some choice we had this year.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Some choice we had this year.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Flag symbolises national identity.
If burning flag is allowed as part of 1st Amendment then why are you objecting to Confederate flag being hoisted in various parts of the nation.
Is there 1st Amendment only to burn & desicrete the flag and no 1st Amendment protection for hoisting Confederate flag.Remarkable.
President elect D J Trump has voiced the opinions of a large number of people who find the dichotomy of people swearing allegiance to the flag for Citizenship & then turning to burning the Flag to vent their emotion.
At this rate there should be 1st Amendment protection for professional protesters from being prosecuted for burning Cars,breaking window panes.
If burning flag is allowed as part of 1st Amendment then why are you objecting to Confederate flag being hoisted in various parts of the nation.
Is there 1st Amendment only to burn & desicrete the flag and no 1st Amendment protection for hoisting Confederate flag.Remarkable.
President elect D J Trump has voiced the opinions of a large number of people who find the dichotomy of people swearing allegiance to the flag for Citizenship & then turning to burning the Flag to vent their emotion.
At this rate there should be 1st Amendment protection for professional protesters from being prosecuted for burning Cars,breaking window panes.
As a former Boy Scout I learned about how to treat a flag properly.
Of the thousands of ways to disrespect OUR flag, burning is one of the more respectful ways of "dissing" it.
I would much rather see it burned than sprawled across a car hood made into a bikini or jingoistic head wrap.
Treating a flag is akin to treating a dead body a deserves that kind of respect.
That being said, who has a match?
Of the thousands of ways to disrespect OUR flag, burning is one of the more respectful ways of "dissing" it.
I would much rather see it burned than sprawled across a car hood made into a bikini or jingoistic head wrap.
Treating a flag is akin to treating a dead body a deserves that kind of respect.
That being said, who has a match?
3
Fatwa!! Trump's pronouncement about flag burning reminds me of parts of Islam-- where any aspersions cast towards Allah, deserve punishment or even execution.
Wouldn't it be amazing if Trump had the sense to see the irony of the similarity?
Wouldn't it be amazing if Trump had the sense to see the irony of the similarity?
5
So let's just say for arguments sake that someone burns the US flag and Trump has his way and that person's citizenship is revoked. What then? Does the individual become an illegal immigrant?Deportable? And if so to what country?
These Trump comments make no logical sense. ...does the US realize other countries are watching these charades?
These Trump comments make no logical sense. ...does the US realize other countries are watching these charades?
3
Reporting on the president elect needs to start from the premise that he is unbalanced and not normal and go from there, rather than trying to figure out what is behind some bizarre behavior.
1
Wow! Trump can really get you NYT readers on your high horse! Nothing in his tweet calls for revoking citizenship! All he's saying is that there should be some kind of punishment for burning the flag...do any of you know what the word "perhaps" means? Read ALL the words in the tweet! He gets your goat quite easily - a master player!
2
The a Dictator in Chief has spoken. Dare we asked what's to come next?
Between Trump's tweets and the parade of cabinet picks it's difficult to see a silver lining in the black that has descended over this nation.
Between Trump's tweets and the parade of cabinet picks it's difficult to see a silver lining in the black that has descended over this nation.
1
Further evidence of Trump's ignorance and incompetence. What is probably most disturbing is that he will tweet these messages with no regard for the reality of his proposals. Granted that he is only doing it as red meat for his delusional supporters, so they forget that he will break all his promises to them, but his instincts are always to be cruel and harsh. It is unlikely this behavior will stop after he takes the Oath for his anti-social tendencies will be even more unrestrained.
Too many place inordinate emphasis on the flag, which is nothing more than fabric, and not enough emphasis on the rights and freedoms it purports to symbolize.
Mr. Trump, please note that the same thinking that could allow a citizen to be stripped of citizenship for burning a flag - as if citizenship is some kind of prize, and as if burning a flag is worse, even in his opinion, than murder or rape - could be stretched to other forms of outrageous behavior, such as racist or misogynic comments.
2
The US has elected a man who is both ignorant of our basic rights and who has shown strong authoritarian tendencies. He made no attempt to hide any of this and he was elected anyway.
Say hello to your new President American and say goodby to your civil rights. He will be in office soon and the next four years will be devastating. It is too late to change any of that now.
Say hello to your new President American and say goodby to your civil rights. He will be in office soon and the next four years will be devastating. It is too late to change any of that now.
3
There is impeachment--no doubt what the Republicans really want because then Pence, the hypocrite, can be president. IMHO that is even scarier than Trump.
2
what next, no criticizing the president?!
1
You made news out of Trump and helped him get elected By degrading most of his supporters. Report when he is breaking the law and become a news paper the world is news You should excuse most of the people who write on the front page as not being journalist but entertainers like the Fox people. Move on because there is not much reason to read this paper after a lifetime of doing it.
Why not do away entirely with that nationalist flag doing of yours? Any school, any other public organisation or what ever, doing anything absurd with the Dutch flag, apart from the day that we celebrate the king's birthday, is seen as overdoing something. Care for people all over the world and for the world itself.
1
Move Trump rants to Page 6
3
President elect Trump looks in the mirror and see "King" Trump......with the Rs dominating Washington we'll see how well the Constitution holds up, protects the citizenry and prevents the 1%ers from looting the country
1
When the opposition announces that it will fight Trump at every turn, and challenge his every utterance, this is what we get. We've gone mad over such stupidity before - "we begin bombing in five minutes" - and yet we take the bait, hook, line and sinker, every time. It's a complete distraction, folks, by someone who knows better than most that that the medium is the message, and content is an afterthought. If the Left maintains this level of outrage over his tweets for the next four years, we will fill our newspapers with dross, exhaust ourselves completely and wind up missing the stuff that matters.
1
Flag burners should be incarcerated for unlawful arson. It is a safety issue, not a speech issue. Speech is spoken, flags are burned. Fire is not speech. Citizenship should be revoked for unlawful arson meant to incite riots. America voted. Trump won. Elections have consequences.
1
What type of arson is lawful, Steve?
How about we promise to burn our flag in a clearing, then shovel dirt over the ashes to smother any remaining spark?
And put up signs saying,"Please don't riot?"
How about we promise to burn our flag in a clearing, then shovel dirt over the ashes to smother any remaining spark?
And put up signs saying,"Please don't riot?"
I am seriously considering not reading or listening to the news any more. Every day I grow ever more fearful after learning of Mr. Trump's Tweets and appointments. He has already exceeding my worst fears of how he would behave in office. I am truly afraid for the stability of our country.
3
He is a Moron & a fool - don't listen to him
1
We are becoming our allies. America/Turkey Trump/Erdogen.
If we're going to start stripping citizenship for repugnant behavior, let's start with people who practice and foster racial, religious, and ethnic hate speech, along with those who mock individuals with disabilities.
2
Individuals who avoided the draft with phony medical excuses should lose their citizenship.
2
There is a guy in my neighborhood who has had a big Trump flag and a big American flag flying from his truck bed for the last 6 months. Never took in the American flag at night, never shined a light on it, never took it out of the rain. It slowly became filthy and tattered lapping again his bumper. Or how about the people who put flags up on highway overpasses so that we can watch them disintegrate in the elements? To these people, flag burning is bad, but if you disrespect the flag very slowly and allow it to be destroyed by the weather, or let it hang in darkness, it's ok. No disrespect there. Probably threw it in the garbage can when he was done with it. People who fashion themselves patriotic violate the flag all the time. We've all seen it on the highways, at least.
2
Sure, let's make it illegal to burn the US flag, but let's also make it a crime to fly or display the Confederate flag, since the latter is a symbol of high treason against the US.
1
What a buffoon. Makes me want to burn a flag.
2
Pretty sure if he got his way and somehow got that law enacted, that there would be mass flag burnings .
2
And did you call Senator Hillary Clinton a "buffoon" in 2005 and 2006 when she fervently push legislation criminalizing flag-burning?
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https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Mr. Kahn got it right-Trump has never read the Constitution.How many more of our rights will now be in jeopardy?
1
And did you say the same when Senator Hillary Clinton TWICE tried to pass bills criminalizing flag-burning?
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https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Flag burning is no more seditious or treasonous than flying the Confederate
flag.
flag.
Just wait for the corollary: special protections for people who display the Confederate flag, swastikas, et al.
If Trump or any other leader in DC tries to bully this down our throats again, I'd be willing to burn a flag in protest to their protest. And I like America, but I refuse to be treated like a kid, that they can bully about. My family fought for the freedoms that we hold dear, let us not let these people come into their high offices and think they can dictate Their Leadership to us citizens.
Personally, I have no desire to burn the American flag. I like the American flag and the country for which it stands. Instead, why don't we burn the CONFEDERATE flag? The Trumpists have far more reverence for that than they do for the Stars & Stripes. And I doubt even South Carolina could justify prosecuting someone for desecrating the symbol of treason against America.
24 words in a tweet, he's toying with you kids. Problem is, the NYT can't tell the difference.
We have a sitting President that has publicly supported mandated voting, as recently as this past April. The US Constitution grants everyone the right of "free association", which was upheld in the Citizens United case.
Maybe you kids can write about that?
We have a sitting President that has publicly supported mandated voting, as recently as this past April. The US Constitution grants everyone the right of "free association", which was upheld in the Citizens United case.
Maybe you kids can write about that?
1
~
Jeez, how gullible are Americans and the media?
It's not part of some grand plan (the guy obviously doesn't have any) it's just testing the waters to see what he can get away with in the future.
The media demeans itself by retweeting his tweets with additional coverage.
The intelligentsia evacuates...
Jeez, how gullible are Americans and the media?
It's not part of some grand plan (the guy obviously doesn't have any) it's just testing the waters to see what he can get away with in the future.
The media demeans itself by retweeting his tweets with additional coverage.
The intelligentsia evacuates...
1
The etiquette prescribed by law for handling damaged America flags is burning them. But then Mr. Trump, who knows what he knows, knows what he doesn't know, and doesn't know there is anything he doesn't know, shouldn't be expected to know that
1
Trump should be required to take and pass a civics test before he is allowed to assume residency in the White House.
1
Did you demand that Senator Hillary Clinton pass a civics test in 2005 and 2006 when she fervently pressed for legislation criminalizing flag-burning?
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https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Well, that's good news(sarcasm) Trump tries to silence reporters by having his henchmen almost attack them at rallies, now he wants to trample on more freedom of speech by jailing dissenters. Didn't one of those people who did that just die on that island off Florida?
The Flag stands for the freedom to burn it as a form of protest.
His proposal does more than desecrate the Flag, it desecrates the graves of all serviceman who died defending freedom. Its past time for him to take being a Statesman seriously and stop tossing out political firebombs to rile up the nation for entertainment.
His proposal does more than desecrate the Flag, it desecrates the graves of all serviceman who died defending freedom. Its past time for him to take being a Statesman seriously and stop tossing out political firebombs to rile up the nation for entertainment.
1
Mr. Khan, Gold Star Parent, correct. Drumpf needs to carry constitution. He also needs to have his Twitter feed cut. He acts like a 5 year old with it. This is just a diversion from real issues MSM getting close to like separation of his business from POTUS. He is also an accused rapist, scammed thousands with phony college, womanizing pig, psychopathic liar, with vultures as kids, attempting to pay for play at the expense of Security. He does not have popular vote mandate and the Whitney little brat is angry so he comes up with this garbage. He is not my President. My President has a brain.
1
I pray to God this passes only if theu could add that the offenders get deported aswell but unfortunately I don't think any other country would want our garbage. but hot dang it's a start
We are now accelerating toward that point beyond which the answer to the question, "What do you think about the United States of America" will be, "It was a good idea."
1
Mr. Trump, ever the reality show star, has won the ultimate American contest: the "role" of POTUS. Yet the man now complains that the popular vote, which he lost by almost Two million, must be a fraud and rigged.
The man does not seem to be able to absorb anything - anything! - that may run contrary to his view as the victor in anything he is involved with. Judging by his cabinet selections, he appears to be ready to dismantle Social Security, Medicaid, ACA, Roe v. Wade...But is he STILL unfulfilled?
Is he already seeking even more spoils, an even larger "accomplishment"? Is this man trying to dismantle our 1st Amendment rights? Our very Constitution? The world looks to America, and shakes its collective head in disgust.
The man does not seem to be able to absorb anything - anything! - that may run contrary to his view as the victor in anything he is involved with. Judging by his cabinet selections, he appears to be ready to dismantle Social Security, Medicaid, ACA, Roe v. Wade...But is he STILL unfulfilled?
Is he already seeking even more spoils, an even larger "accomplishment"? Is this man trying to dismantle our 1st Amendment rights? Our very Constitution? The world looks to America, and shakes its collective head in disgust.
First they cane for the flag-burners, but I was not a flag-burner--so I said nothing...
2
Yesterday I was listening to Rush(after taking my anti-nausea pill) He told a listener to not take what Trump says seriously. He was referring to this recent statement about flag burning as an example. Funny how before the election we were to take the Donald at his word.
Let us not forget that the only two people responsible for the upset and anger of the American people in the last 15 years were Donald J. Trump and Osama Bin Laden. Therefore, burning the flag is absolutely understandable. And it's actually not an issue at all: People have the right to express themselves. May Mr. Trump help us change our negative perspective of himself.
1
The man wishes to distract from his obvious failures, obviously. But in doing so he shows us more of his failures, also obviously, because he is so utterly unqualified. What to expect next? Well, nobody knows, since it's DJT's credo to "keep us in suspense".
I imagine Julius Caesar telling the Roman senate and people that he will "keep them in suspense".
I imagine Winston Churchill telling the Brits in 1940 that he will "keep them in suspense" about that guy with the mustache.
I imagine Ronald Reagan telling the U.S. public he will "keep them in suspense" about these hostages.
This is NOT how you govern! This is not even how you do business. I wouldn't do business with someone who will "keep me in suspense" about when and how much he's going to pay me or wether he will reneg on the original deal. I don't know why so many people have put up with DJT's tactics over the years. Business-wise I wouldn't touch that guy with a ten foot pole!
And now he will become U.S. president. "Oh spiffy!" to quote Basil Fawlty.
If this continues to go on like this I intent to spend the next four to eight years (if we live that long...) in a drunken stupor, and I'm an ocean away from the heart of the action! But I really, really don't want to see the U.S. go down, or even go down the path DJT seems to be going on. So therefor: bottoms up! How many days until he gets the nuclear codes? Tic-toc-tic-toc...
I imagine Julius Caesar telling the Roman senate and people that he will "keep them in suspense".
I imagine Winston Churchill telling the Brits in 1940 that he will "keep them in suspense" about that guy with the mustache.
I imagine Ronald Reagan telling the U.S. public he will "keep them in suspense" about these hostages.
This is NOT how you govern! This is not even how you do business. I wouldn't do business with someone who will "keep me in suspense" about when and how much he's going to pay me or wether he will reneg on the original deal. I don't know why so many people have put up with DJT's tactics over the years. Business-wise I wouldn't touch that guy with a ten foot pole!
And now he will become U.S. president. "Oh spiffy!" to quote Basil Fawlty.
If this continues to go on like this I intent to spend the next four to eight years (if we live that long...) in a drunken stupor, and I'm an ocean away from the heart of the action! But I really, really don't want to see the U.S. go down, or even go down the path DJT seems to be going on. So therefor: bottoms up! How many days until he gets the nuclear codes? Tic-toc-tic-toc...
We don't need no Stinking Supreme Court to tell us what's constitutional We have Trump! Good for us.
Or Hillary? As senator Hillary, in case you didn't know, tried to pass bills in 2005 and 2006 that would have criminalized flag burning. These attempts were denounced all over - even here in the NY Times. Yet this fact seems to have been oh so conveniently forgotten in the rush to rewrite history.
Some choice we had this year.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Some choice we had this year.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
It's possible that Trump's comment is more strategic than actually intended to communicate his stance on flag burning. Given the importance of loyalty to him, might this tweet be a test for Romney and other cabinet candidates? I think Trump is much more calculating than he is given credit for. Failing to appreciate this is perilous.
1
"Flag Protection Act of 2005" - Co-sponsored by Hillary Clinton.
2
Today as I tried to get on with life, I was getting my hair cut when I brought up Dr. Tom Price, an Atlanta orthopedic surgeon who was nominated for head of Health and Human Services. I said I couldn’t think of a worse person to name to that position, a millionaire whose strident hatred of the ACA keeps getting him elected from one of Atlanta’s most prosperous suburbs.
The stylist in her mid-forties stated that she had never registered to vote and didn’t know anything about “politics.” She sounded as if I asked her if she watches Duck Dynasty! So uninformed.
She had NO idea about how to get help paying for health insurance--of course it was Obama who had taken health insurance from her! Obama who raised premiums. Dr. Tom Price has NO idea how Medicaid and Medicare affect health care here in Georgia much less in the entire USA.
Price will insist on block grants to States for Medicaid..which almost ALWAYS leads to one third to one half the total dollars in funding. Rep Price is 100% against any federally funded abortion AND against all Obamacare funding for birth control. Georgia is a leader in the US in single teen mothers who are white.
Price is for work requirements for getting Medicaid and the poorest of the poor will be asked to ALSO pay monthly premiums for Medicaid. Work requirements simply don’t work. I have three “girls” under the age of 20 who just delivered their THIRD child--all with birth defects. They WANT tubal ligations but not allowed until age 21!
The stylist in her mid-forties stated that she had never registered to vote and didn’t know anything about “politics.” She sounded as if I asked her if she watches Duck Dynasty! So uninformed.
She had NO idea about how to get help paying for health insurance--of course it was Obama who had taken health insurance from her! Obama who raised premiums. Dr. Tom Price has NO idea how Medicaid and Medicare affect health care here in Georgia much less in the entire USA.
Price will insist on block grants to States for Medicaid..which almost ALWAYS leads to one third to one half the total dollars in funding. Rep Price is 100% against any federally funded abortion AND against all Obamacare funding for birth control. Georgia is a leader in the US in single teen mothers who are white.
Price is for work requirements for getting Medicaid and the poorest of the poor will be asked to ALSO pay monthly premiums for Medicaid. Work requirements simply don’t work. I have three “girls” under the age of 20 who just delivered their THIRD child--all with birth defects. They WANT tubal ligations but not allowed until age 21!
2
I voted for Trump and am unconvinced that the alternative would
have been better.
On this issue, however, Trump is simply and profoundly wrong.
have been better.
On this issue, however, Trump is simply and profoundly wrong.
2
The alternative? Hillary Clinton tried to pass bills in 2005 and 2006 that would have criminalized flag burning. These attempts were denounced all over - even here in the NY Times. Yet this fact seems to have been oh so conveniently forgotten in the rush to rewrite history.
I agree, Gonewest: Some choice we had this year.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
I agree, Gonewest: Some choice we had this year.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Hillary Clinton was one of 100 Senators. She was trying to get something enacted in a constitutionally approved way....Her bad!! Trump makes pronouncements and acts like he will get the military to arrest these flag burners. I really hope that Trump supporters will admit (if only to themselves) that they have been trumped by the biggest Trump of all. I can only hope he will be impeached and the process will lock up DC until 2018 elections
You say: "She was trying to get something enacted in a constitutionally approved way....Her bad!!"
There is no way for Congress to do it constitutionally.
Here is the relevant Amendment to the Constitution:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Last time I looked, the Senate was part of Congress.
As the NY Times said then: "But the whole point of the First Amendment is to protect expressions of political opinion that a majority of Americans find disturbing or unacceptable. As a lawyer, the senator presumably already knows that."
Her bad? No. Yours.
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There is no way for Congress to do it constitutionally.
Here is the relevant Amendment to the Constitution:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Last time I looked, the Senate was part of Congress.
As the NY Times said then: "But the whole point of the First Amendment is to protect expressions of political opinion that a majority of Americans find disturbing or unacceptable. As a lawyer, the senator presumably already knows that."
Her bad? No. Yours.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Someone on Trump's staff needs to get him a copy of the US Constitution and make sure he UNDERSTANDS it. I was going to say make sure he reads it but decided that suggestion would not be adequate. Every American high school student has read it, so it amazes me he has so little understanding of what it says. Selective amnesia? His ignorance never stands in his way of saying or tweeting something. I don't agree with most of his views, but he does have the right to express himself. It's in the Constitution. Look it up. But seriously, someone needs to fact check his basic store of knowledge about the Constitution including all the amendments before he starts the job of being president.
Trump and his supporters are the ones that should lose their citizenship, for they desecrate the principles of our Constitutional Democracy and human decency.
2
I do not endorse the views of president-elect. There are various forms of expressing one's anguish and dissent. Flag burning is one such thing. However, it cannot be taken lightly. There are specific laws to deal with such offences. Stripping citizenship is too harsh.
1
I am an alumn of Hampshire College, and am very proud of the way it has gone through an open process of discussion on this issue - even as it is attacked by the right wing press and the next president. I am also proud of what students are taught at Hampshire - the importance of critical thinking, social engagement in various forms, taking seriously and trying to understand other points of view, even if you do not agree with them, freedom of thought and expression... Perhaps PEOTUS needs to go back to college to learn some of these things. I highly recommend Hampshire College Mr. Trump.
3
Could it simply be construed as hate speech?
1
So many of the people who bleat about a piece of symbolic cloth being burnt were completely disdainful, when President Obama was being disrespected by people who dishonored themselves.
Including the man who disrespected our president the most-
President-Elect Trump.
(Is this more chutzpah than the retraction of the Clinton "prosecution"- in order to "help her heal?" I'm trying to decide.)
Including the man who disrespected our president the most-
President-Elect Trump.
(Is this more chutzpah than the retraction of the Clinton "prosecution"- in order to "help her heal?" I'm trying to decide.)
1
Well, let's get Donnie's judges in there and maybe we can have public floggings -- or do I dare hope for beheadings? -- for this awful crime.
1
The citizenship of a natural-born American can't be revoked, no matter what crimes they commit. So what is Trump talking about? I believe the subtext is that conservatives should be able to decide who is and who isn't a proper American, an idea that seems to be more or less idiomatic on the right, viz. the House Committee on Un-American Activities, Anne Coulter's book "Treason," and Trump's previous post on millions voting illegally. Add to that that Trump is a CEO, and that CEOs are used to an autocratic culture in which what they say goes.
If the said Americn flag is manufactured in China I see no harm in burning it.Thats just me, never could appreciate that angle.
1
Burning the flag? What a curious discussion!
I believe the United States is the only nation in the world where civilians worship and salute a flag. The practice was not common until 1942, when the "Pledge" was formally adopted by Congress during WWII. Its roots go back to 1887 - not 1776.
It is just plain crazy to worship a piece of cloth. In England, they worship the Queen; in Russia, the Dictator Du Jour; and in France, themselves - but cloth worship is unique to us.
Many Americans worship our Constitution - this actually makes sense, because it is about justice and government; and not about graphic design.
If you feel the need to worship some artifact of our democratic state, the constitution is the sane choice - as opposed to the Trump choice.
I believe the United States is the only nation in the world where civilians worship and salute a flag. The practice was not common until 1942, when the "Pledge" was formally adopted by Congress during WWII. Its roots go back to 1887 - not 1776.
It is just plain crazy to worship a piece of cloth. In England, they worship the Queen; in Russia, the Dictator Du Jour; and in France, themselves - but cloth worship is unique to us.
Many Americans worship our Constitution - this actually makes sense, because it is about justice and government; and not about graphic design.
If you feel the need to worship some artifact of our democratic state, the constitution is the sane choice - as opposed to the Trump choice.
2
India's supreme court just ordered that the national anthem and flag be displayed and honored (by standing) before every showing of every movie.
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/national-anthem-...
Guess America isn't alone after all. We have yet to go that far.
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http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/national-anthem-...
Guess America isn't alone after all. We have yet to go that far.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Trump is feeling frustrated because White House is only meant for American born citizens and his wife who isn't born in America will stay in New York. I guess he want to change our constitution and slip in amendments to include his wife's citizenship dilemma.
"I prefer someone who burns the flag and then wraps themselves up in the Constitution over someone who burns the Constitution and then wraps themselves up in the flag." -- Molly Ivins
5
Trump is NOT proposing to take away the citizenship of flag burners. He is proposing to take the right to criticize the government away from all citizens.
This is how it starts.....
This is how it starts.....
2
Then it "started" in 2005 and 2006 when Senator Hillary Clinton tried to pass legislation criminalizing flag-burning.
Some choice we had this year.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Some choice we had this year.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Enough with the discussion of the inane tweets already!
When he wasn't in power he was allowed to raise all the dumb distracting issues he wanted. Obama's birth certificate! Hillary Clinton's emails! Bill Clinton's affairs! Ted Cruz's dad killed JFK!
But now he IS the government, so it's time to stop the distractions. And even if can't muster that maturity, it's up to the press to ignore them and discuss his policies (or lack thereof) and his executive decisions.
I don't care about his personal opinions on flag burning. What I want to know: Is he going to sell out the country to foreign nations so he can make a buck with this company? Is he going to treat the American tax payer how he did those Trump University students he (implicitly) admitted to defrauding? Does his appointment of Sessions as AG mean the end of the civil rights act? Will everyone who got insurance through Obamacare now be without health insurance again? Is he going to do anything at all about climate change?
Also: will Mexico pay for the wall? Will he send back all illegal immigrants? Will he send Clinton to jail? And will he bring back the coal jobs? (OK, I know the answer to these last ones...)
When he wasn't in power he was allowed to raise all the dumb distracting issues he wanted. Obama's birth certificate! Hillary Clinton's emails! Bill Clinton's affairs! Ted Cruz's dad killed JFK!
But now he IS the government, so it's time to stop the distractions. And even if can't muster that maturity, it's up to the press to ignore them and discuss his policies (or lack thereof) and his executive decisions.
I don't care about his personal opinions on flag burning. What I want to know: Is he going to sell out the country to foreign nations so he can make a buck with this company? Is he going to treat the American tax payer how he did those Trump University students he (implicitly) admitted to defrauding? Does his appointment of Sessions as AG mean the end of the civil rights act? Will everyone who got insurance through Obamacare now be without health insurance again? Is he going to do anything at all about climate change?
Also: will Mexico pay for the wall? Will he send back all illegal immigrants? Will he send Clinton to jail? And will he bring back the coal jobs? (OK, I know the answer to these last ones...)
1
If Trump carries through with this ban by proposing legislation I will burn the American flag in protest. The unprecedented domestic spying by the NSA violates the Bill of Rights meant to protect American citizens from abuses by its own government and Congress has done nothing to oppose it. If our government keeps chipping away at our constitutional freedoms the door swings ever wider open for fascism to enter.
2
No wonder Trump "doesn’t understand the first thing about the First Amendment." He is said to read little. It shouldn't be a surprise that he doesn't know much about America's Constitution and history. How is he going to cope? In order to show that he's up to the task, he will have to know various issues well by reading pages of analyses and documents HIMSELF. It is important that he has a first-hand impression in order to make a right decision, not relying on the views of those - clans and cronies - close to him.
Soon he will realise that being president isn't like playing buffoon in a reality TV show. We'll be seeing sequences of sideshows from him to distract the public from his incompetence, failure and scandals.
Soon he will realise that being president isn't like playing buffoon in a reality TV show. We'll be seeing sequences of sideshows from him to distract the public from his incompetence, failure and scandals.
20
Wishful thinking. Trump won't even attend any more intelligence briefings. He was probably unhappy that he was the only person in the room who didn't know what anyone was talking about.
3
"Flag Burners Should Lose Rights, Trump Says, Despite Supreme Court Rulings"
Somehow the front-page headline makes it sound equivocal. It needs to be more emphatic, about the falsity of a president claiming such things.
As a matter of fact, NYT, you'd better start risking getting a little partisan with the wording from now on, now that Winter is Coming- to Dark Age America.
Buckle Up.
Somehow the front-page headline makes it sound equivocal. It needs to be more emphatic, about the falsity of a president claiming such things.
As a matter of fact, NYT, you'd better start risking getting a little partisan with the wording from now on, now that Winter is Coming- to Dark Age America.
Buckle Up.
27
I'm not so sure what Mr. Trump is up to.
He discarded his false promise to imprison Mrs. Clinton.
He is waffling on Obamacare, Medicare, Immigration, The Wall, The Swamp, you name it.
He once again makes unethical and unconstitutional comments, via Twitter, daily.
He has refused to separate his business dealings from his presidency, let alone sever ties to insure against conflicts of interest.
Faced with a recount effort, he lies about "millions of illegal votes".
He wrote about flag burning after watching it on FOX. It's as if he never paid the slightest attention to the issue before, and didn't realize it was settled law.
This has all been happening in the 3 weeks since he became president-elect. And Mr. Trump appears to be trying to provoke an impeachment effort, one supported by all sides.
Either that, or he is trying to prove that his followers would stay with him, as he said, even if he "shot someone on 5th Ave."
Everything about this campaign was unprecedented, as well as un-presidential.
I don't believe Mr. Trump really wanted to be president, or planned for it, or even desires it, even now.
For crying out loud- he regards living in the White House, the embodiment of our gov't., as well as our country, as a step down from his penthouse.
He discarded his false promise to imprison Mrs. Clinton.
He is waffling on Obamacare, Medicare, Immigration, The Wall, The Swamp, you name it.
He once again makes unethical and unconstitutional comments, via Twitter, daily.
He has refused to separate his business dealings from his presidency, let alone sever ties to insure against conflicts of interest.
Faced with a recount effort, he lies about "millions of illegal votes".
He wrote about flag burning after watching it on FOX. It's as if he never paid the slightest attention to the issue before, and didn't realize it was settled law.
This has all been happening in the 3 weeks since he became president-elect. And Mr. Trump appears to be trying to provoke an impeachment effort, one supported by all sides.
Either that, or he is trying to prove that his followers would stay with him, as he said, even if he "shot someone on 5th Ave."
Everything about this campaign was unprecedented, as well as un-presidential.
I don't believe Mr. Trump really wanted to be president, or planned for it, or even desires it, even now.
For crying out loud- he regards living in the White House, the embodiment of our gov't., as well as our country, as a step down from his penthouse.
27
He's doing what he does best -- keeping people off balance. Only he knows what he'll do, and so as long as he's keeping everyone guessing, he's in control. Don't succumb, don't allow yourself to be hypnotized by the swinging pendulum. It's all part of the Kool-Aid. Stay focused on what's really important. Freedom is in peril. Defend it with all your might.
2
If I were an elector, I'd demand Trump's tax returns before casting my vote. "Crooked Hillary" wasn't crooked at all, as we could see from the decade of her joint tax returns on her website, along with the Clinton Foundation tax returns. That's what an authentic President does. Trump is not a president--not my president, not our president. And he never will be.
But he'll always be a con man. We are all just Trump University students now, waiting for Trump to steal our tuition and bankrupt us.
But he'll always be a con man. We are all just Trump University students now, waiting for Trump to steal our tuition and bankrupt us.
1
I wonder if we shake the Trump tree enough, heaven knows how many things will drop down that would be grounds for revoking his citizenship?
I know he was a draft dodger (no grounds there, except morality); he hides his money from the government he wants to lead in order not to pay taxes (that's American as apple pie and to some degree, immoral, but, hey, it's his way of making a living); he gropes women (that's an all-American pastime and morality does not apply in such cases because he's a guy); he's a serial liar and makes up the truth as he goes along (that's all the rage in America today. immoral? nah.).
Gee! He's squeaky clean! He's a model American citizen. Who'd of thunk?
I know he was a draft dodger (no grounds there, except morality); he hides his money from the government he wants to lead in order not to pay taxes (that's American as apple pie and to some degree, immoral, but, hey, it's his way of making a living); he gropes women (that's an all-American pastime and morality does not apply in such cases because he's a guy); he's a serial liar and makes up the truth as he goes along (that's all the rage in America today. immoral? nah.).
Gee! He's squeaky clean! He's a model American citizen. Who'd of thunk?
20
It is beyond astounding that the man who is soon to swear to protect and defend the Constitution is so woefully unaware of the most holy of the freedoms protected by the Bill of Rights. A man who has no appreciation for the sacred right and, frankly, the duty we have as Americans to protest-to share our views and values-has no right, no place being the president of the United States.
28
Enough with Trump's tweets and twitters. Is there nothing going on in the world more interesting and important to write about than Trump's Tweets? They're bright, shiny objects he throws out for the press to obsess over so his followers won't notice they're being betrayed before he's even sworn in. How about some real journalism for a change?
30
People, get a grip. This is a common propaganda trick intended to inflame passions and divide people against one another. See how it's working? Now you're arguing with your brothers and sisters, the same people who you were laughing and dining with last week on the holiday. Don't let these tactics make you lose sight of what is at stake. Don't give up your power, your power to think independently, to exercise your right to think your own thoughts, and to allow your neighbors to do the same. We have gotten along for decades, allowing each other to live and let live. This doesn't have to change. Authoritarian governments win when the people succumb to fear and give their power away to the strongman who then beats us all with the same stick. Don't take the bait. Remember who we are. We are better than this. The flag is a symbol, a powerful symbol, and if someone burns it, it's not because they hate America. It's because they love America and wish to draw attention to her distress. Remember who we are. We may disagree, but we are in this together.
E PLURIBUS UNUM.
No one can tear us apart if we refuse to allow it!
E PLURIBUS UNUM.
No one can tear us apart if we refuse to allow it!
27
Anyone who wants to address their anger by burning the flag, I would suggest to do so in front of Walter Reed Hospital.
You'd be taken apart in about 15 seconds, and that, would be good..
You'd be taken apart in about 15 seconds, and that, would be good..
If you burn a flag, I will call you out on behavior I vehemently disagree with. But I will also defend your right to freedom of expression. My opinion does not trump (sorry) the Constitution.
27
Flag burning is never acceptable and regarding immigration related anger it's beyond counter intuitive - it's spitting at the entire country with a despicable temper tantrum.
8
Kind of like the temper tantrums our president-elect throws on a near-daily basis?
"I prefer someone who burns the flag and then wraps themselves up in the Constitution over someone who burns the Constitution and then wraps themselves up in the flag." -- Molly Ivins
2
The last few days - reading announcements that Trump is consistently appointing to his various cabinet posts the very people who either have no knowledge or experience in that capacity and/or have prior expressed strong opinions for the elimination or narrowing of authority of said post (EPA appointee, for example, former head of one of the most environmentally destructive companies on the planet - Monsanto) -- So now -- with the news that Trump is declaring flag burning to be treason, I believe this all has become too much like a Tim Burton animation -- where everything that comes out of Donald Trump's mouth is painfully and darkly hilarious. To honor this, I believe a limerick is needed:
I do not like the constitution
I do not like democracy
and if elected President
I'll do exactly as I please
Your laws that Blacks are just like Whites
or women have the right to choose
were just a dream you poor folks dreampt
before you watched the evening news
to see that now elected King
the rule of land is greatly changed
what's up is down and down is up
and all I want is everything.
signed,
Trump Towers @johannaclear
I do not like the constitution
I do not like democracy
and if elected President
I'll do exactly as I please
Your laws that Blacks are just like Whites
or women have the right to choose
were just a dream you poor folks dreampt
before you watched the evening news
to see that now elected King
the rule of land is greatly changed
what's up is down and down is up
and all I want is everything.
signed,
Trump Towers @johannaclear
19
The only way Donald Trump can be the smartest person in the room is by hiring people stupider than himself.
2
Further illustrates the futility of the choice given the American people.
As the NY Times editorialized in 2005:
"Hillary Clinton is co-sponsoring a bill to criminalize the burning of the American flag. Her supporters would characterize this as an attempt to find a middle way between those who believe that flag-burning is constitutionally protected free speech and those who want to ban it, even if it takes a constitutional amendment. Unfortunately, it looks to us more like a simple attempt to have it both ways." - "Senator Clinton, in Pander Mode" December 7, 2005
This is some choice we had. Either get unconstitutional laws proposed by a TV gameshow host, get them from the Historic First Woman President.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
As the NY Times editorialized in 2005:
"Hillary Clinton is co-sponsoring a bill to criminalize the burning of the American flag. Her supporters would characterize this as an attempt to find a middle way between those who believe that flag-burning is constitutionally protected free speech and those who want to ban it, even if it takes a constitutional amendment. Unfortunately, it looks to us more like a simple attempt to have it both ways." - "Senator Clinton, in Pander Mode" December 7, 2005
This is some choice we had. Either get unconstitutional laws proposed by a TV gameshow host, get them from the Historic First Woman President.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
10
For the record, Hillary failed in 2005 but undaunted by the Constitution, she tried again in 2006:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/28/washington/28hillary.html
"When Mrs. Clinton took a stand on the matter last year — co-sponsoring legislation that would have criminalized the desecration of the American flag even as she opposed a constitutional amendment that sought to achieve the same end — she was pilloried from the left. Editorial boards criticized her for political maneuvering, the political commentator Arianna Huffington attacked her for "stars, stripes and triangulation" and even some of her supporters quietly wondered why she had gone out on a limb on such a controversial issue.
"On Tuesday, Mrs. Clinton played a leading role in the flag-burning debate once again, co-sponsoring a measure similar to her previous one as an alternative to the constitutional amendment that was about to come up for a vote in the Senate."
Some people just never learn.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/28/washington/28hillary.html
"When Mrs. Clinton took a stand on the matter last year — co-sponsoring legislation that would have criminalized the desecration of the American flag even as she opposed a constitutional amendment that sought to achieve the same end — she was pilloried from the left. Editorial boards criticized her for political maneuvering, the political commentator Arianna Huffington attacked her for "stars, stripes and triangulation" and even some of her supporters quietly wondered why she had gone out on a limb on such a controversial issue.
"On Tuesday, Mrs. Clinton played a leading role in the flag-burning debate once again, co-sponsoring a measure similar to her previous one as an alternative to the constitutional amendment that was about to come up for a vote in the Senate."
Some people just never learn.
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
1
I didn't know this. Voted for Hillary, but this flag-fact is indeed disappointing. (Guess Trump isn't as much of an "outsider" as he thought.)
Please stop taking seriously the things Trump *tweets*. It's embarrassing. Do you know anything about Twitter? Trump is an entertainer and a promoter. He says stuff because it's attention-grabbing in the moment. He doesn't care, or believe it, or feel constrained to live up to it later. His own supporters don't hold him to his word--sorry, his *tweets*. Only the NYT does.
12
Why is this even news? We all know (i) he is just pandering to his base on twitter to take attention away from the fact that he just appointed a HHS director that is directly coming after their Social Security and Medicare Benefits; (ii) this is free speech in the absence of a constitutional amendment; and (iii) Hillary supported the same back in 2005.
This should not even register on the Richter scale of the stupidity of his quotes in 2016...
This should not even register on the Richter scale of the stupidity of his quotes in 2016...
9
As a political artist I use the flag in much of my art, not as disrespect rather as criticism to the adverse changes I feel our nation has undergone since the election of our fortieth President, Mr Reagan.
I am not interested in burning or any other form of flag destruction, but I do want people to know it is our flag, not just the flag of those who purport to represent us. Our troops fly and use this flag to signify liberation and freedom, yet he speaks of jailing someone for practicing exactly those rights.
My concern is that Mr Trump in his zeal to be the "First American" may actually insist on enforced patriotism of any sort with the so called desecration of the flag in this manner, being the first step along that path.
He appears to be a bit thin skinned with regard to any sort of criticism and as our President I can only trust this affliction does not infect anyone beyond himself..
Will his Cabinet, political colleagues, business associates, branded products etc be drawn into this web?
Because we are both Americans the light I am holding is still burning for him, but ithoughts of this nature are making it less bright
I am not interested in burning or any other form of flag destruction, but I do want people to know it is our flag, not just the flag of those who purport to represent us. Our troops fly and use this flag to signify liberation and freedom, yet he speaks of jailing someone for practicing exactly those rights.
My concern is that Mr Trump in his zeal to be the "First American" may actually insist on enforced patriotism of any sort with the so called desecration of the flag in this manner, being the first step along that path.
He appears to be a bit thin skinned with regard to any sort of criticism and as our President I can only trust this affliction does not infect anyone beyond himself..
Will his Cabinet, political colleagues, business associates, branded products etc be drawn into this web?
Because we are both Americans the light I am holding is still burning for him, but ithoughts of this nature are making it less bright
4
Apart from Trump apparently believing that U.S. citizenship can be stripped as punishment, one of the more intriguing things is that he puts it on the same plane as a year in jail...
14
Seriously, anytime he tweets, reporters and editors should look for the actual scandal he's trying to distract from.
29
Of course!... NYT get on your toes... don't go for the shiny object look and see what's in his other tiny hand behind his back.......
2
Squirrel!
This is another example of how republicans play the press for fools.
While Trump announced an ex Goldman Sachs executive to be the treasury secretary, he blunts press coverage by sending out a crazy twitter message about flag burning. Flag burning is catnip for the news media, versus a dry but troubling announcement of an investment multi millionaire getting the Treasury Secretary job. The press will always cover the crazy diversionary flag burning comment.
Now read this article. Worked didn't it?
New York Times: You are better than this. Cover what Trump is doing with his appointments and policy, not his expertly timed ,hair brained, diversionary tactic tweets. Thank you.
While Trump announced an ex Goldman Sachs executive to be the treasury secretary, he blunts press coverage by sending out a crazy twitter message about flag burning. Flag burning is catnip for the news media, versus a dry but troubling announcement of an investment multi millionaire getting the Treasury Secretary job. The press will always cover the crazy diversionary flag burning comment.
Now read this article. Worked didn't it?
New York Times: You are better than this. Cover what Trump is doing with his appointments and policy, not his expertly timed ,hair brained, diversionary tactic tweets. Thank you.
34
Was going to comment but couldn't have said it better.
9
Either cover the statement correctly, as in "President-elect calls for unconstitutional jailing of peaceful protesters", or don't cover it at all.
20
I understand that flag burning is protected free speech. As near as I can tell, it means I hate my country. It has shock value, for sure. But whoever is doing it is in the country and presumably lives here. Hating your whole country is a big thing. It's not just hating your sister-in-law from Dallas. I assume it includes everything. Your dog, your bathtub, the Chicago Cubs and everything else. In my opinion, if you hate absolutely everything, it's your fault. If, on the other hand, you just hate one or two things, I think you should make a sign. Burning the flag is overly dramatic, insufficiently precise, and environmentally unfriendly. In some countries self-immolation is more common. I heard Trump was against that. Don't you just hate the guy. He has no respect for the right to burn stuff.
6
Flag burning a cause of loss of citizenship? Trump forgot to read the Constitution. And I consider this an invitation to activists to have flag-burn-in and watch his tweets go nutz!!! Entertainment with a message.
10
Someone please give this man a crash course on the Constitution and its Amendments.
21
Let Hillary give him that crash course! After all, Hillary, in case you didn't know, tried to pass bills in 2005 and 2006 that would have criminalized flag burning. These attempts were denounced all over - even here in the NY Times. So she must know by now that she was dead wrong. I hope...
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
https://emcphd.wordpress.com
Once he is President, how about people just burn an image of Trump in effigy instead? Would that be OK?
13
Okay. I get it. Burning the flag is considered free speech. Abusing the symbol of America's freedom is disrespectful. Shouting "FIRE" in a crowded theater is unwise. Recently, someone shouted "GUN" causing the crowd to panic. Most in our society refrain from using the "N" word. MY POINT: Some actions are best left alone. It is unwise to tempt confrontations which often result in bad outcomes.
2
The only way you'll take my US flag shorts, underwear, and socks is from my cold dead hands !
2
It's all a distraction, every disgusting appointment he's made, no blind trust, all the important things get buried beneath deliberately inflammatory remarks. Carnival barker extraordinaire
13
Texas v Johnson was a 5-4 vote and contained one of the most important and persuasive dissents in the history of the Supreme Court. based on all the despicable actions of flag burning by petulant haters of election results it could not be more clear that the case needs to be revisited.
2
Who knows who these craven folks supposedly are- it is clearly just Donald in the tub lighting matches and eating cheez whiz at 3am.
5
Trump is wishing for something. He did not say that as "dictator" he would make it happen. Get the difference?
2
Dana's comment below hits the nail on the head.
However, there's another nail.
One characteristic behavior of this fellow is that he calls others names which he is guilty of. His disloyalty to the United States is not only disqualifying for public office, it is treasonous. He is a vassal of Putin. he owes money to Russian oligarchs who in turn owe it to Putin. You wonder why he hinted early on that NATO might not get his support? It's a way of paying back what he owes to the Russian war criminal Putin.
It would be merely criminal if he were just using the White House to improve his wealth and favor his business interests. But selling out our shared security with NATO nations is a capital offense.
This will come out eventually. Some heroic bureaucrat in the IRS or some heroic hacker will let his tax returns slip, and then we will all know.
However, there's another nail.
One characteristic behavior of this fellow is that he calls others names which he is guilty of. His disloyalty to the United States is not only disqualifying for public office, it is treasonous. He is a vassal of Putin. he owes money to Russian oligarchs who in turn owe it to Putin. You wonder why he hinted early on that NATO might not get his support? It's a way of paying back what he owes to the Russian war criminal Putin.
It would be merely criminal if he were just using the White House to improve his wealth and favor his business interests. But selling out our shared security with NATO nations is a capital offense.
This will come out eventually. Some heroic bureaucrat in the IRS or some heroic hacker will let his tax returns slip, and then we will all know.
10
I don't need review of all those court decisions. The answer is NO. Period.
Instead we should listen to the flag burner. Carefully, and without bias. To see if there might be something there that we should listen to.
He is not my President. I had hoped realization of the weight of the office might tame him. It has not.
Instead we should listen to the flag burner. Carefully, and without bias. To see if there might be something there that we should listen to.
He is not my President. I had hoped realization of the weight of the office might tame him. It has not.
6
For heaven's sake, why don't we simply require that all U.S. flags be fireproof, and get rid of this stupid distraction? All the flags that fly over the Capitol already are.
3
"Flag burning is now an accepted form of free speech." It is abhorrent and it is a provocation. You speak of 'safe places' but there is no safe place if the very symbol of freedom for the entire world is made to be nothing more than a politically correct piece of tinder. To well more than 50% of Americans, the flag means and represents a way of life and something worth dying for. It is easy cheap and cruel to those that believe in this country. But hey, liberal means inclusive but only to 'progressive' thought defined somewhere between New York City and Washington DC.
2
You may be surprised to hear this but the US flag is most certainly NOT the "symbol of freedom for the entire world". For a great many people it is a symbol of bombastic partisanship which ignores a people's right to self-determination if the US thinks they will choose wrongly for the US's interests.
1
The proper way to dispose of an American flag is to burn it. Should whoever is assigned that task be imprisoned?
More than 50%? Citation please
This has got to stop. For the sake of our national security, and our sanity, we have got to stop reacting to every ill conceived idea that Donald Trump tweets. He hasn't given much thought to half of what he says, so why should we?
Face facts. Our future President is a man-child, with the emotional maturity of a 5 year old. He needs to be treated with special care, so as not to encourage tantrums and outbursts. Reacting only provokes further reactions against the "crooked press".
Face facts. Our future President is a man-child, with the emotional maturity of a 5 year old. He needs to be treated with special care, so as not to encourage tantrums and outbursts. Reacting only provokes further reactions against the "crooked press".
10
From now on, for the sake of my mental health, I am going to ignore any more stories about outrageous Trump tweets. I am beyond tired of the constant drama and the predictable Pavlovian media response of top-of-the-news stories repeating and then refuting Trump's ridiculous assertions. I don't care that it is the President-elect saying all these stupid things. The endless drama is exhausting (and Trump is not even in office yet) and detracts from the important issues. Trump has turned the media into a joke. If you feel compelled to report every stupid Trump tweet, must it be the lead story??? Get a grip.
23
And what punishment for Trump burning our Constitution?
15
I can just hear him say to himself, when the pressure mounts....Change The Subject. So he casts about for something else, anything else. And makes a mountain out of whatever molehill he finds. Flag burning, re-counts, torture--whatever he needs to do to divert attention from the big and important issues. The barn burners, like conflict of interest, or all those unqualified appointments.
This is how his mind works--feverishly worked up all the time over minutiae. He can't let these things go. It is part of his peculiar sickness. It must be exhausting to be him, for it is certainly exhausting to listen to it all.
This is how his mind works--feverishly worked up all the time over minutiae. He can't let these things go. It is part of his peculiar sickness. It must be exhausting to be him, for it is certainly exhausting to listen to it all.
6
Yes, watch wall to wall coverage of my outrageous flag comment, but pay no attention to the parade of interviewees and new cabinet members through my office, pulled straight from the bilionaires and Wall Street insiders, the exact people I promised I would never nominate!
18
It's safe to say the most persons would rather not burn the flag or any other item, on the street or near their house.
And there are way bigger behavior problems around the village square than someone setting a flag on fire. Just take a walk down 5th avenue or any other avenue in New York, San Francisco or your local town.
We should demand that the president and the administration focus on issues that matter and problems that need solving, not flag burning.
And there are way bigger behavior problems around the village square than someone setting a flag on fire. Just take a walk down 5th avenue or any other avenue in New York, San Francisco or your local town.
We should demand that the president and the administration focus on issues that matter and problems that need solving, not flag burning.
6
You would think that a president-elect supposedly busy trying to populate a cabinet would not have time to bother with flag burners. His suggestions for dealing with this existential threat to America are both unconstitutional and illegal. This issue was settled by SCOTUS over 20 years ago. Will Twitter PLEASE shut down this man-child's acccount.
16
Progress from flag burning to desecrating it by allowing it to touch the ground then for picking up road dust when placed on rear of redneck's pickup. Advance onto penalties for disrespecting it by not standing when it is passing in a parade in front of you and on and on. Biggest penalty administered when fail to salute it when the emperor enters the room with flag color guard leading the entourage. Finally prison for those who fail to salute flag pin on the emperor's jacket depicted on the obligatory 20x20 foot portraits that will be installed at every major gathering place in America
12
How is it that Trump can remain silent when the KKK and other white supremacists spout off hate speech but he wants to jail or expatriate people who burn the flag?
29
So on point u are
8
Sometimes, there is a difference between what should be done and what can be done. I think we should ban gun ownership by all Nazis and all KKK members. The First and Second Amendments disallow that. But it is my right to express my opinion. If Trump thinks all flag burners should be deprived of citizenship, that's his First Amendment right. Even Presidents can have opinions that are contrary to the Constitution. I'll bet Obama believes that Congress should be sanctioned for refusing to vote on his nominee to the Supreme Court.
2
Media (and all of us) really need to give Trump's tweets a bit of a rest. Let him get zero reaction to his ludicrous rants, and concentrate on his appointees and their backgrounds and issues. We are FEEDING the swamp he claims to be draining (although he's just replacing the alligators)
11
Mr. Obama famously proclaimed that elections have consequences, and since he won it was basically his way or the highway. The base cheered, but much of the country was unsettled, not happy. Now we have a new situation, Mr. Trump is the President-elect. And much of the country is unsettled, not happy. Please remember folks these most famous words from Mr. Obama's lips: "elections have consequences". And if President-elect Donald Trump frowns on burning the American flag, well then I guess you must realize that Mr. Trump won!
2
In reading through the comments, I noticed a change. In the beginning, the comments were mostly directed toward the topic, flag burning. But the responses morphed into neg. comments on the amount of coverage NYT gives trump. At this writing, there are 1497 comments and twice as many votes on those comments. Quite a bit of interaction and back/forth.
We are why NYT, and the rest, cover every little utterance of trump. Throw a big enough net, you will catch a lot of click bait.
We are why NYT, and the rest, cover every little utterance of trump. Throw a big enough net, you will catch a lot of click bait.
2
You should stop covering all this nonsense as news.
Trump's purpose is to fire up his base.
Whether he really means it is anybody's guess.
The big populist is just using all possible mechanisms to keep his base engaged and happy.
Trump's purpose is to fire up his base.
Whether he really means it is anybody's guess.
The big populist is just using all possible mechanisms to keep his base engaged and happy.
10
I find it odd that everyone is slamming Trump over this - when in fact, Hillary Clinton proposed the exact same thing back in 2005 (although she did not suggest stripping the violators of their citizenship). She co-sponsored the Flag Protection Act in 2005. It would have made burning the flag with the intent to "incite violence or disturb the peace" punishable by a year in jail and a $100,000 fine. It was a great idea back then - because she was a Democrat Senator from NY. But Trump suggesting it? Stop the presses! The Horror!
8
...I find it odd that everyone is slamming Trump over this - when in fact, Hillary Clinton proposed the exact same thing...
It's not that most of us think it was okay for Hillary to propose the same thing. Quite the contrary: If Hillary had stood up for what she knew was right, she might have won the election. Many of us would have voted for her instead of for 3d party candidates. Some of us would have worked for her, or given contributions, or talked her up among our families and friends. She lost that election precisely because she did not stand for anything.
Some of us thought she might be worse than Trump, and with reason. Unfortunately, events are proving us wrong, IMO.
It's not that most of us think it was okay for Hillary to propose the same thing. Quite the contrary: If Hillary had stood up for what she knew was right, she might have won the election. Many of us would have voted for her instead of for 3d party candidates. Some of us would have worked for her, or given contributions, or talked her up among our families and friends. She lost that election precisely because she did not stand for anything.
Some of us thought she might be worse than Trump, and with reason. Unfortunately, events are proving us wrong, IMO.
5
Progs are definitely having problems adjusting to the new reality.
LOL
LOL
2
@ Saints Fan
Delighted to see your comment leading off with "progs" -- a term of disparagement for those of us who favor progress, advancement, and the common good -- as well as the line between lies and truth. "Prog" is a new variant, in line with George Wallace's "pointy headed intellectuals" and Nixon's "pompous eggheads," right up to the brilliant Rick Santorum, who called President Obama a "snob" for wanting more Americans to attend college.
What you call the "new reality" is not something I personally care to "adjust to" -- what we are looking at as the new administration is formed is just a new "reality show" much like "The Apprentice".
Delighted to see your comment leading off with "progs" -- a term of disparagement for those of us who favor progress, advancement, and the common good -- as well as the line between lies and truth. "Prog" is a new variant, in line with George Wallace's "pointy headed intellectuals" and Nixon's "pompous eggheads," right up to the brilliant Rick Santorum, who called President Obama a "snob" for wanting more Americans to attend college.
What you call the "new reality" is not something I personally care to "adjust to" -- what we are looking at as the new administration is formed is just a new "reality show" much like "The Apprentice".
9
The biggest insult to the flag occurs every day at the New York Stock Exchange where the American flag is plastered to the front of the Exchange as a shill for capitalism, tethered at all four corners instead of waving freely. It irritates the heck out of this former Girl Scout each time I see it.
10
I will gladly burn a flag in Lafayette Park on the occasion of Trump's inaugural parade, drawing on my 29 Years of protecting my country
When it was too inconvenient for Trump to do so.
When it was too inconvenient for Trump to do so.
23
Flag burning is never acceptable and regarding immigration related anger it's beyond counter intuitive - it's spitting at the entire country with a despicable temper tantrum.
He used "heel spurs" as his excuse for repeatedly dodging the draft. Funny thing, he can never remember which foot had them. As someone who has actually had heel spurs, I can guarantee that you don't ever forget which foot had the crippling pain.
In other news, outrageous conflicts of interest and even more outrageous cabinet picks: tea partiers, creationists, climate change deniers. Don't be distracted by the stupid tweets, people! This is how he gets away with his despicable actions.
10
Good grief, Trump is utterly ridiculous. Part of freedom of expression is being able to burn the flag. So many people don't understand what true democracy means, least of all Donald Trump. If he is allowed to continue this way by the end of four years you will be one of the most oppressed countries out there. The potential damage to the country under his rule is incalculable but whatever it is it may never be repaired.
Wow what kind of president threatens their own people? The ones running a banana republic, that's who. I just cannot fathom why the country even wanted to sign up for this nightmare, and I wonder if he is going to succeed in silencing the nation..
Wow what kind of president threatens their own people? The ones running a banana republic, that's who. I just cannot fathom why the country even wanted to sign up for this nightmare, and I wonder if he is going to succeed in silencing the nation..
10
Agreed whoeheartedly. Does this guy bother reading before spouting ignorant rhetoric?
3
I was in a committee meeting today of retirees discussing college level courses for fellow retirees, and the discussion moved to Trump, and how much damage he will or could do to the nation. Our hopeful consensus was, "what the heck, he is just one guy. How much damage can he really do?"
One of us was a German immigrant from the 1940s. He did not share our "hopeful consensus," and was appalled by what we apparently did to
ourselves.
One of us was a German immigrant from the 1940s. He did not share our "hopeful consensus," and was appalled by what we apparently did to
ourselves.
16
..."what the heck, he is just one guy. How much damage can he really do?"
One of us was a German immigrant from the 1940s. He did not share our "hopeful consensus,"...
Thank you. Please tell that to everyone you can.
I follow comments on the NYT and some less "liberal" papers, among other sources. I see people laughing at Trump as if he's a harmless idiot and I see people cheering him on in ways that scare me. But what I don't see, is smart people being legitimately afraid of the evil he may be capable of wreaking, or a well-founded (IMO) fear of the American people falling into the same errors as our German cousins did.
One of us was a German immigrant from the 1940s. He did not share our "hopeful consensus,"...
Thank you. Please tell that to everyone you can.
I follow comments on the NYT and some less "liberal" papers, among other sources. I see people laughing at Trump as if he's a harmless idiot and I see people cheering him on in ways that scare me. But what I don't see, is smart people being legitimately afraid of the evil he may be capable of wreaking, or a well-founded (IMO) fear of the American people falling into the same errors as our German cousins did.
7
I'm too busy burning american flags in my back yard to follow Donald's tweets, and I don't tweet anyway. I just burn flags...two or three times every day. As long as I don't shoot anybody, does anybody care?
7
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Over the years, a majority of Americans cannot name a single right named in the first amendment. Significant numbers agree with a statement that the first amendment "goes too far." That notwithstanding their inability to state what it guarantees. Interestingly, they are almost always certain of what the second amendment is. Sigh...
13
I will burn an American flag everyday...just to get under your skin...lol.
You're sofa king simple.
You're sofa king simple.
13
We really should outlaw Flag burning. If a person is this disrespectful of the flag then they don't belong in this country. It is not free speech and the people who did this are on the road to terrorism.
I agree with Trump on this. If they are illegal immigrants, refugees, green card holders whatever - they should be immediately deported. I think the penalty must be severe.
I agree with Trump on this. If they are illegal immigrants, refugees, green card holders whatever - they should be immediately deported. I think the penalty must be severe.
2
@judyw. If we ban flag burning then we could also lose the right to speak our minds in comments sections such as this!
6
As soon as you ban wearing the flag as wrapping paper, shirts, underwear, curtains, shower curtains, dog jackets, toilet paper, etc. Get real! The flag can be used as advertisement with no restrictions even if it's gross. Sorry my friend, that train left the station a long time ago.
8
God help us. Do you condemn the people who throw away the toothpick flags in cupcakes?
11
I fear that Mr. trump is attempting to lay the groundwork for a renewed push of the Flag Desecration Amendment, and thus the groundwork to subvert the Constitution more broadly (I don't agree with burning the flag; but that's immaterial).
Mr. Trump's real issue, based off of his displayed character thus far, is that people have burned it to protest him. It has nothing to do with the flag itself (IMO). I feel, based off of the seriousness of his tweet, that he's going to put forth legislation to the GOP led congress to amended the Constitution in regards to this issue which will pass, the DOJ under Jeff Sessions will enforce it and the people Trump nominates to the bench of the SCOUS will rule in his favor on any appeal. Once that's done, and the door opened to curbing dissent to the Trump presidency, what will be next? And who can honestly say?
"... I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes
me to tremble for the safety of my country... I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.
God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless.” - President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864 (letter to Col. William F. Elkins).
Mr. Trump's real issue, based off of his displayed character thus far, is that people have burned it to protest him. It has nothing to do with the flag itself (IMO). I feel, based off of the seriousness of his tweet, that he's going to put forth legislation to the GOP led congress to amended the Constitution in regards to this issue which will pass, the DOJ under Jeff Sessions will enforce it and the people Trump nominates to the bench of the SCOUS will rule in his favor on any appeal. Once that's done, and the door opened to curbing dissent to the Trump presidency, what will be next? And who can honestly say?
"... I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes
me to tremble for the safety of my country... I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war.
God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless.” - President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864 (letter to Col. William F. Elkins).
16
The flag-burning case, Texas v Johnson, was decided 5-4 by a very different Supreme Court. If such a case came to the court today, it probably would be decided the same, 5-3. But Trump will appoint one justice soon, and very likely one or two more; maybe three if he serves two terms.
Most importantly, he's pushing the emotional buttons of his base and solidifying his political dominance. This, together with his comment that millions of illegal immigrants voted, shouldn't be dismissed as foolishness. These are well timed and will ensure that a large, angry public will be behind him in the coming years. This is really dangerous stuff.
Most importantly, he's pushing the emotional buttons of his base and solidifying his political dominance. This, together with his comment that millions of illegal immigrants voted, shouldn't be dismissed as foolishness. These are well timed and will ensure that a large, angry public will be behind him in the coming years. This is really dangerous stuff.
17
If you are a person who burns the flag, then Trump wants to throw you in jail.
If you are a white person who burns the cross (KKK), then Trump thinks it is OK.
If you are a white person who burns the cross (KKK), then Trump thinks it is OK.
21
And if you're a Goldman Sachs investment weasel who stole homes out from under 30,000 hard-working American citizens, you're Trump's new Treasury Secretary.
1
Oh my. And all the other places flags are used, is worse?
Seems we should ban Confederate flags well before we worry about the burning of the US flag as a protest. Much less revoke citizenship.
Just another diversion from the real issues.
Trump is the king of mirror tricks
T
Seems we should ban Confederate flags well before we worry about the burning of the US flag as a protest. Much less revoke citizenship.
Just another diversion from the real issues.
Trump is the king of mirror tricks
T
11
NYT, for the love of all that is good, STOP TAKING THIS MAN'S BAIT. You have a responsibility to us, your readers. and the general public to be journalists, not bloggers, who are in search of truth, not clicks. Understand your part in all of this, and PUSH HIM ON THE ISSUES THAT MATTER.
9
At first, I agreed with readers who bemoaned the Times---and hysterical, angry readers---for running this story and falling prey (yet again) to Trump's ignorant outrage baiting. Ignorant because the Supreme Court upheld flag burning as protected speech in 1989.
But then I read a little more on Texas V. Johnson. My takeaway?
Regarding flag burning only (not revoking citizenship): the decision was 5-4. Awfully close. And even though the notorious Scalia voted to protect this form of speech, the only remaining Justice who partook in the decision is Kennedy. Everyone else has retired or died.
If there's anything to take away from this story, it's that we Americans cannot take anything for granted. Supreme Court decisions are not irreversible. Mark my words: watch what happens to Roe V. Wade and a host of other 5-4 "liberal" decisions that's always rankled the New Conservatives.
But then I read a little more on Texas V. Johnson. My takeaway?
Regarding flag burning only (not revoking citizenship): the decision was 5-4. Awfully close. And even though the notorious Scalia voted to protect this form of speech, the only remaining Justice who partook in the decision is Kennedy. Everyone else has retired or died.
If there's anything to take away from this story, it's that we Americans cannot take anything for granted. Supreme Court decisions are not irreversible. Mark my words: watch what happens to Roe V. Wade and a host of other 5-4 "liberal" decisions that's always rankled the New Conservatives.
12
I didn't expect him to go for the home run straight away, but there he goes.
Let's be clear, if the Birther-in-Chief gets your freedom of speech, he's got everything. Once speech goes he can do whatever he wants and simply imprison you for speaking out. Without freedom of speech, the rest goes too.
Let's be clear, if the Birther-in-Chief gets your freedom of speech, he's got everything. Once speech goes he can do whatever he wants and simply imprison you for speaking out. Without freedom of speech, the rest goes too.
9
Donaldo, very funny tweet
next: illegal to burn me in effigy. So disrespectful to potus.
next: no kneeling or sitting during anthem. I think it's a race issue I read somewhere.
next: no disagreeing with kings proclamations.
next: illegal to burn me in effigy. So disrespectful to potus.
next: no kneeling or sitting during anthem. I think it's a race issue I read somewhere.
next: no disagreeing with kings proclamations.
11
Personally, I think that sociopathic fake billionaires who insult the collective intelligence of our nation and offend the vast majority of the rest of the world with their inane and ignorant ramblings should lose their citizenship.
18
One addendum: have you ever seen a misbehaving child react when he is being ignored? he stops acting out. Maybe there should be a pact not to cover these tweets.
9
Well I do believe that we should call Trump's bluff and organize a massive national patriotic flag burning protest on one very fine Sunday afternoon, sooner rather than later. We might as well test whether of not the Police State apparatus is already in place and to what extent.
11
I kinda wish EVERYONE would ignore Trump completely. No reporting his asinine tweets other than I would LOVE some reporter to ask Republican Senators to go on record for each Tweet with their response.
11
Melania - please install parental controls on the Twitter account!
10
Donald Trump should be the first person whose should be sent to prison and have his U.S. citizenship revoked. He has to all intents and purposes 'burned' the American flag by violating through his words and actions so many of the principles and values we cherish and teach our children and that are enshrined symbolically in the flag. Furthermore, as an earlier comment said, as a deliberate draft dodger he worked hard to avoid defending the flag and what it stands for, while so many others bravely and selflessly gave their all to defend it.
13
Excellent point. I'm flabbergasted how he appeals to so many people.
3
What so many of you don't seem to grasp is that Trump and his cronies are about to BE the law. His ignorance of it is irrelevant. With the Supreme Court in one hand and Congress in the other, Trump will have any law he wants.
12
Short messages (text, tweet, etc) are devoid of emotional content. A Trump tweet read by a late night comedian could become hilarious. That is the point: there is no context. When anyone reads a short message (texts, tweets, even email) the reader tends to assign the missing emotions. Its transference. There's so room for misinterpretation. What does "lock someone up" in a tweet mean? Where and how? At a luxury spa? Or Sing Sing? The only way for serious media to handle short messages is to ask for policy clarification, without prior speculation. It's called news reporting. If the sender refuses to clarify, this should be reported as "makes a statement which seems to be completely illegal, but refuses to clarify". The sender will get the point soon enough. After all, do we know who ideas these trumptweets are? Bannon's, Conway's? How well prepared, purposeful and strategic are they? If Trump, or one of his mouthpieces, could please be asked to clarify these short messages or any other of their one sided sender controlled messages, this would be very helpful, thank you.
4
So, it seems that our option (yet again) is either to let the nonsensical pass or waste our time countering and protesting the latest remarks and 'tweets'. What an interesting situation. Are we to be continuously set a twitter like this for years to come? Seems a rather outrageous civics test. But I think we shall pass the test as long as we remain alert and clear headed, civil and smart. The one benefit, if I dare use the word, is that those of us who were tempted to turn away from the embarrassing spectacle will not do so after all.
6
"Patriotism (or, as in this case, our flag!) is the last refuge of a scoundrel"! attributed to Samuel Johnson...Again, will someone wake me up in four years, providing we don't self destruct before then, under the leadership of Donald Trump?!!!
6
This empty rhetoric of you-know-who makes me want to go out, get a flag, and burn it. Burn it in remembrance of the America he is burning up even as I write. I wish I could do it in full view of this con man and dare him to send me to jail. Mr Trashique Politique is the one who belongs in jail-- and half the country knows it. The other half is brain dead.
10
Finally, someone says what the majority of Americans think. Now, whether it can be done is something else. At the very least, it will give pause to those for whom Anti-Americanism is a badge of ideology.
3
On the contrary, it inspires me to fully exercise my right as an American citizen to freedom of speech. Off to the flag shop.
6
The majority of American voters rejected Trump and voted for Hillary Clinton.
3
Trump sends the media off with red herrings with a 30 second tweet. By reporting on this, you are not looking at something more serious, and potentially more damaging.
Even if he actually believes this, he can do nothing about it legally.
Even if he actually believes this, he can do nothing about it legally.
5
Rather interesting that Donald Trump, draft dodger, has suddenly decided that the American flag needs his protection. He worked quite hard to avoid defending it back in the 70's.
24
Many students took draft deferments. Were they draft dodgers?
1
I was very happy to maintain my student deferment by attending graduate school after my birthday getting number 6 in the draft lottery! Were all students, hardships, etc., draft dodgers?
Trump filed for numerous deferments, usually complaining about "heel spurs." Amazingly, his medical records show no problems ever with heel spurs. So who's lying here, Donald Trump or Donald Trump?
So it's OK with Mr. Trump to support "Alt-Right" Racist White Supremacists, who showed Nazi "colors" at his rallies, but he wants to take the unthinkable position, illegal under the law of the US First Amendment, to revoke the citizenship of our countrymen who burn the US flag as a means of protest. This cynical tweet of the new President-elect is typical of his whole campaign. I do not think the man knows what it means to be a U.S. citizen, and I think his tweets could end up being very dangerous to the survival of the Republic.
He is a divider, quick to step on the rights of those with whose positions he disagrees, although in many cases--the flag-burning non-issue being one--Trump is simply using a symbol of patriotism to his best advantage in the most cynical fashion. Trump purposely creates controversy where none exists. (Honestly, how many American flags have you seen burned in protest lately?) And I think he does it quite tactically, to turn attention away from his own much more newsworthy problems. As an example that seems to be more than coincidence, Trump's sudden concern with the non-issue of flag burning corresponds with his recent admission of guilt in the "Trump University" fraud case, wherein he essentially admitted to the allegations of the complaint (Trump University was a fraud costing enrollees millions and millions of dollars) by paying the Plaintiffs in that case an 8 figure settlement.
He is a divider, quick to step on the rights of those with whose positions he disagrees, although in many cases--the flag-burning non-issue being one--Trump is simply using a symbol of patriotism to his best advantage in the most cynical fashion. Trump purposely creates controversy where none exists. (Honestly, how many American flags have you seen burned in protest lately?) And I think he does it quite tactically, to turn attention away from his own much more newsworthy problems. As an example that seems to be more than coincidence, Trump's sudden concern with the non-issue of flag burning corresponds with his recent admission of guilt in the "Trump University" fraud case, wherein he essentially admitted to the allegations of the complaint (Trump University was a fraud costing enrollees millions and millions of dollars) by paying the Plaintiffs in that case an 8 figure settlement.
6
Ignore the tweets – they are meaningless.
I don't use Twitter because it is a waste of time and the source of provocations.
Americans should pull the plug on this nonsense and get on with more pressing issues, such as living.
I don't use Twitter because it is a waste of time and the source of provocations.
Americans should pull the plug on this nonsense and get on with more pressing issues, such as living.
7
He doesn't care about us. This is probably setting up for his line of fine Chinese-made Trump Fireproof Flags™.
I wonder how long before even the Centipedes realize they were conned?
I wonder how long before even the Centipedes realize they were conned?
14
very well said
2
Donald stop changing the subject. Lets talk about your conflict of interests.
15
That sad part is people often get confused with "people have died for our flag." Let us remember that a flag is a symbol so if you're dying for a piece of cloth then that is on you. People have died for our nation, the freedoms of this nation and the people of this nation! Yet, you see nothing wrong with a man who clearly wants to change much of what those men and women at war truly have given their lives for. Hint: it wasn't a flag!
13
I disagree with burning the flag, but if they ever pass a Constitutional Amendment to criminalize that act I will be the first to burn one.
19
So what. Trump is entitled to his opinion like the flag burners are entitled to theirs. As a symbol, the flag has deep meanings for many. When the burners do their thing they are trying to get under the skin of their opponents - otherwise their protests would go unnoticed. Should there be consequences for destroying a symbol? Yes, No, maybe. The courts have settled the matter but that can change as the court changes its makeup. Right now its far more important to see who he nominates to fill the vacancy.
2
So our President elect seems to have a basic problem with the First Amendment. Trash the press and attempt to cow/sue them into submission. Abridge our citizens' First Amendment rights. Name racists and creationists to cabinet posts. In no time at all Mr. Trump should be able to "make America great again", if by "great" you mean a banana republic with a tin pot dictator.
The signs are all there that we are marching down the road to dictatorship.
The signs are all there that we are marching down the road to dictatorship.
11
Today's edict atop the golden throne, I can't wait until tomorrow morning.
2
What is more disturbing is that several talking heads on CNN have said over half the people in the US think there should be a law against burning the flag. Are half the citizens in this country really that stupid?
Duh, yeah. Look who they voted for. We do have a struggle ahead of us.
Duh, yeah. Look who they voted for. We do have a struggle ahead of us.
15
What is the proper way to dispose of an unserviceable flag?
The only definitive answer is found in the US Flag Code. TITLE 4, CHAPTER 1, Sec. 8(k). It states:
“The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning."
The only definitive answer is found in the US Flag Code. TITLE 4, CHAPTER 1, Sec. 8(k). It states:
“The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning."
10
NY Times readers are you aware that U.S.S.C. Justice John Paul Stevens (a WWII Navy Vet - Elena Kagan replaced him) dissented in a Flag burning decision; and while already a liberal when this case came to the court in 1989, it is told that about Stevens:
QUOTE
Perhaps the most personal and unusual feature of his jurisprudence is his continual referencing of World War II in his opinions, which Stevens often cites in an attempt to appeal to shared patriotic, American values. For example, Stevens, a World War II veteran, was visibly angered by William Kunstler's flippant defense of flag-burning in oral argument in 1989's Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989) and voted to uphold a prohibition on flag-burning against a First Amendment argument. Wrote Stevens, "The ideas of liberty and equality have been an irresistible force in motivating leaders like Patrick Henry, Susan B. Anthony, and Abraham Lincoln, schoolteachers like Nathan Hale and Booker T. Washington, the Philippine Scouts who fought at Bataan, and the soldiers who scaled the bluff at Omaha Beach. If those ideas are worth fighting for – and our history demonstrates that they are – it cannot be true that the flag that uniquely symbolizes their power is not itself worthy of protection from unnecessary desecration."
UNQUOTE
I am crestfallen at what has happen to the NYT and its readers. Respect others opinions.
QUOTE
Perhaps the most personal and unusual feature of his jurisprudence is his continual referencing of World War II in his opinions, which Stevens often cites in an attempt to appeal to shared patriotic, American values. For example, Stevens, a World War II veteran, was visibly angered by William Kunstler's flippant defense of flag-burning in oral argument in 1989's Texas v. Johnson, 491 U.S. 397 (1989) and voted to uphold a prohibition on flag-burning against a First Amendment argument. Wrote Stevens, "The ideas of liberty and equality have been an irresistible force in motivating leaders like Patrick Henry, Susan B. Anthony, and Abraham Lincoln, schoolteachers like Nathan Hale and Booker T. Washington, the Philippine Scouts who fought at Bataan, and the soldiers who scaled the bluff at Omaha Beach. If those ideas are worth fighting for – and our history demonstrates that they are – it cannot be true that the flag that uniquely symbolizes their power is not itself worthy of protection from unnecessary desecration."
UNQUOTE
I am crestfallen at what has happen to the NYT and its readers. Respect others opinions.
9
Aren't you all tired of being led by the nose by his moronic tweets? Maybe if we all ignore his baiting he will wither away and die.
16
nah, he is soon to be president.
Imagine what Donald Trump will say or do after he gets burned in effigy for the millionth time by July 20, 2017, in the mean streets of Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Cleveland, Houston, Tulsa, St. Louis, Detroit, Phoenix, Milwaukee, Knoxville, Philadelphia, Baton Rouge, Omaha, Topeka, San Jose, Washington, Atlanta, Seattle, Charleston, Sacramento, Paris, Munich, Mexico City, Montreal, Naples, Liverpool, Jakarta, Panama City, Dublin, Mumbai, Hiroshima, Seoul, Cairo, Sao Paulo, Sydney, Buenos Aires, Johannesburg, Warsaw, Athens, and Jerusalem!
14
Just what is your point with this comment?
2
Have you ever considered living through the end of a country's existence. The map,of the world is ever changing, but so far not here. Remember when you were a kid in school, how the countries of Africa looked then, and how they look now. Welcome to what we've decided.
12
It would be extremely helpful if the journalists covering Trump would educate themselves about the realities of dealing with someone who has a narcissistic personality disorder. One of the hallmarks of the disorder is a constant need for drama. Trumps meaningless tweets give him this in spades and take the press down yet another rabbit hole further and further away from important issues.
24
Bravissima!! No better response than the one you suggest.
5
He is a consummate troll. Likewise, the best way to neutralise a troll is to simply stop feeding it.
5
Not sure why Americans are so concerned over a material thing and not an idea. Sure you can burn the flag but are you so weak as a nation that the burning somehow diminishes what it stands for. Yes many died for the idea the flag represents, not the actual flag. That's just a thing. As for putting people in jail, stripping citizenship and the art of deception by Trump... yes they are all outrageous... but you voted for the Circus Barker... now live with him... hubris anyone?
14
Martin from Canada:
We did not vote for him, We don't want him. We did not elect him.
"We" are the majority of Americans.
Maybe you should be asking how can this happen ??? instead of condemning us for this outrage against humanity.
There are other forces in play here. The world should be upset.
This is no longer the America "Of The People, By The People, For The People."
You should join us in condemning this farce, not blaming us.
Your comments should be directed at the Electoral College, pointing out the farce that a Trump presidency would be, since, once again, WE DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM
We did not vote for him, We don't want him. We did not elect him.
"We" are the majority of Americans.
Maybe you should be asking how can this happen ??? instead of condemning us for this outrage against humanity.
There are other forces in play here. The world should be upset.
This is no longer the America "Of The People, By The People, For The People."
You should join us in condemning this farce, not blaming us.
Your comments should be directed at the Electoral College, pointing out the farce that a Trump presidency would be, since, once again, WE DID NOT VOTE FOR HIM
5
I recall when Hustler's Larry Flynn wore our flag as a diaper and his first amendment rights were protected- this act to me was worse than burning the flag. I wonder if Con Don would have a fit if someone openly burned a Confederate or Nazi in protest of his selection.He has said and done some appalling things but is protected by our Constitution.What a bleeding hypocrite.What is he trying to distract US from by these inane tweets?
5
More people actually voted for Hillary Clinton.
It's understandable that people from other countries who are tired of boorish, arrogant Americans are feeling a chickens-come-home-to-roost smugness, but don't think that's what's bad for America isn't bad for others, especially for such a close neighbor like Canada. For all the hate, bluster, bigotry and outrage demonstrated weekly by our despicable President-elect, we still have a constitution to guide us through what will likely be troubled times. As a beloved Mr. Tom Hanks alluded to recently, our country and the freedoms it stands for will endure and be made stronger because of them.
It's understandable that people from other countries who are tired of boorish, arrogant Americans are feeling a chickens-come-home-to-roost smugness, but don't think that's what's bad for America isn't bad for others, especially for such a close neighbor like Canada. For all the hate, bluster, bigotry and outrage demonstrated weekly by our despicable President-elect, we still have a constitution to guide us through what will likely be troubled times. As a beloved Mr. Tom Hanks alluded to recently, our country and the freedoms it stands for will endure and be made stronger because of them.
2
Can we please see Trump's tax returns? How about a front page story about that?
27
Unimportant. I'd like to see a full report on his mental stability and capacity for discerning reality from fiction.
16
Trump's tax returns are more than important. They're critical. Once Trump got away with hiding them, he started pulling all sorts of little stunts, probably to see how far he could go.
His refusal to release his tax returns was the loud and clear signal that Trump was a crook who was going to ignore as many laws and traditions as possible. That judgement was confirmed by his $25 million admission of guilt in the Trump University swindle. That crime alone should have disqualified Trump from the presidency. But the GOP rolled over for Trump, and now they have no one to blame but themselves. Thanks a lot, GOP.
His refusal to release his tax returns was the loud and clear signal that Trump was a crook who was going to ignore as many laws and traditions as possible. That judgement was confirmed by his $25 million admission of guilt in the Trump University swindle. That crime alone should have disqualified Trump from the presidency. But the GOP rolled over for Trump, and now they have no one to blame but themselves. Thanks a lot, GOP.
I agree with another person who commented here. I think Ole Pumpkin Head should spend less time on Twitter, like a petulant school girl, and more on the US Government part of his GED. At the end of his term, this crackpot will probably feel like he works at the DMV (except for the fancy dinners.)
Ladies and Gentlemen, please look at the interactive US Constitution and its Amendments here :https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution
You will find solace in these words and they are here for this very reason.
Ladies and Gentlemen, please look at the interactive US Constitution and its Amendments here :https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution
You will find solace in these words and they are here for this very reason.
5
Thanks
1
Is this being used to cover the welfare extended to Carrier to keep some jobs here? They had to be bought. No way "patriotism" is involved. That term gets invoked when they ask you to take a pay cut!
9
I'm getting tired of this mindless Americanism. I pay my taxes, served in the army and feel as American as the next person. Why then do I have to have to put up with the current attempts to stifle dissent, enshrine the flag as a sacred relic and jam Jesus down my throat?
30
I the following is true, "First Amendment — which is you can’t punish people for expressing dissent." The constitutional rights of the people at Standing con who are peacefully expressing their dissent about the Dakota Access Pipeline are having their first amendment rights violated.
4
Mr. Trump is just exercising his First Amendment right to say what he would like to see happen. As far as losing citizenship, it can only happen (maybe) if someone lied to get it (and then still difficult to do). Maybe have new citizens swear to uphold, defend, and hold sacred the flag of the United States of America so then they will be going against their oath. Even that may not do it.
3
This another example, not that one is needed, of just how unstable this minority president-elect is. Isn't there someway this man can be stopped before he assumes office? Could a president-elect be impeached before taking office? Interesting but obviously that's not going to happen. Too bad!
15
Sad!
"Perhaps a year in jail." Guess who will build these jails and make big $. This has got to stop, maybe take his citizenship away.
9
Time to have this REVISITED by a Conservative Court. The present one has so far authorized anarchy and baby murder. If Nothing is sacred, even the edicts of the Supreme Court are not sacred. If they condone the desecration of the single most high symbol of American Patriotism, then what IDEAL is left that will not be trampled on by the ignorant savages who think they are all political artists and statesmen. They are sniveling babies who think that to tear down an ideal is to build a greater one--a false narrative. These snivelers and their cohorts in the media object to the wisdom of our Electoral College method of assigning voting weight to all of the states so that no single state or group can rule the nation. These whiners cannot think past their emotions and understand that this was a tactical battle won by a tactician, a campaign that proved the mettle of Donald Trump. We expect him to lead the country as a tactician that puts our country's results ahead of all else, and whining about him and desecrating the flag really desecrates your own pants, because whether you like it or not, you will sit in your own smelly stew and have to go out into the world and face the facts that it is not a friendly place like the cuddling you got in college, out here, you will conform and work to build a better America or you will be recognized by your neediness and rejected because of your proclivity to pout and throw a temper tantrum in your reliving of your terrible two's--how pathetic.
3
I really like how your response encapsulates the potty-mouthed intolerance of Trump and his supporters. I take it that you are a proud 'conformist' who cannot face the fact that the Constitution you exalt enshrines the very right to set the American flag on fire, because such nuance escapes you. The Founding Fathers themselves were the self-same spoiled dissenters against whom you rail. Trump is not a 'master tactician' by any means -- this is a man who lives out the temper tantrums you deflect onto others, on a daily basis. Master tactician! The man who understands foreign policy by watching 'the shows' on television; who hasn't read a book in years because he doesn't have the patience; the man who doesn't pay the taxes that you or I do. Sit down, boring sir, and listen to America roar!
8
Too bad Scalia authored the ruling permitting flag burning, eh?
6
Well, THAT was a terrifying read. Orwell save us!
2
There's never been a reason to ban burning a US flag. There are already laws the forbid burning anything in a public space without a permit. Good enough for me.
1
If you use your freedom of expression to burn the symbol of your freedom. YOU ARE AN OXYMORON. I mean if you hate your freedom here so much, move to Cuba. I'm sure you'll feel much more at home in a country who will shoot you if you burn their flag. You get mad because Trump would take away your citizenship for burning the symbol of your freedom to express yourself. But burning the flag is telling Trump, "I detest my freedom by burning the flag so, Yes! I want you to take my freedom from me. Take away my citizenship and treat me like a communist leader and put me in jail."
4
You do realize your entire statement goes completely against the first amendment right?
12
What a ridiculous statement. The purpose of a symbol is that it can be made to represent numerous things. Burning a flag in protest carries such symbolic weight only due to the attached meanings. In our society, we protect freedom of speech. Speech is symbolic, just as is a piece of cloth: depending on what is said, we can provoke outrage, or love. But move to Cuba? Precisely because we have the freedom to symbolically express what we want? How un-American of you.
18
No he doesn't. His thought process it convoluted.
1
Would someone tell this man he 'may' have won the presidency via electoral college - but he should remember he will be president not divine ruler; able to banish opponents at whim. Not yet anyway. We are a sick country to lower the high-watermark of cultural advancement of the last 8 years. We risk becoming complacent with obvious corruption with the election and lackluster commitment to maintaining a decent democracy. Interesting times
8
One of his first opinions as president-elect and he's talking about punishment.
6
Yes T
Punishment for exercising and expressing freedom of speech!
Since Mr Trump doesn't like our freedoms, he should leave and......
Attempt his dictatorship someplace else. We certainly don't want him. We didn't vote for him. We didn't elect him.
"We" being the majority "Of The American People"
Punishment for exercising and expressing freedom of speech!
Since Mr Trump doesn't like our freedoms, he should leave and......
Attempt his dictatorship someplace else. We certainly don't want him. We didn't vote for him. We didn't elect him.
"We" being the majority "Of The American People"
4
Trump doesn't comprehend that he's a public servant. He works for us, not the other way around. Surely one of his many generals won't mind slapping some sense into Trump. Maybe waterboarding would help.
Has anyone considered the remote possibility that Mr. Trump is perfectly sane and it is the rest of us who have lost our minds?
If so we could be on the cusp of the greatest period in American history. Yet sadly, only a very small minority will realize how great it is because the rest of us will be mentally disabled and living on the street.
If so we could be on the cusp of the greatest period in American history. Yet sadly, only a very small minority will realize how great it is because the rest of us will be mentally disabled and living on the street.
4
Bravo!!!
2
Billy, you've been "out in the woods" way too long if you don't recognize how dangerous this presidency will be. The man is incapable of the thoughtfulness needed in a president.
For those of us that have worked in Fortune 50 America Mr. Trump's comments are completely in line with the kind of autocratic authoritarian leadership style we see on a daily basis. Certainly not all, but many senior leaders see themselves members of "the elect". Their material success is evidence to them that they should have dominion over their inferiors by some divine providence. Because they lack empathy in the extreme they think nothing of making unilateral pronouncements on the value or thoughts of others and subject those they manage to behavior they would never countenance.
Leaders like Trump, Putin and Erdogan are a mere hair's breadth away from declaring "I am the state" and laying claim to the divine right of kings. It is a sad time for democracy, humanity and our children.
Leaders like Trump, Putin and Erdogan are a mere hair's breadth away from declaring "I am the state" and laying claim to the divine right of kings. It is a sad time for democracy, humanity and our children.
19
I wonder if Trump, and all th false patriots who side with him regardless of his lies and myth spewing, ever put any thought into where those so-called American flags are made, and/or how th workers are compensated for making and packaging them?
6
Donald's tweets are distributed to his twitter followers, most of whom are his supporters/voters/fan club. So, the concern about these being published in the NYT and legitimizing the tweets seems misplaced. As I read the comments across many articles and columns it is difficult to believe that any more than 5% of NYT readers are Trump supporters.
I do not follow him on twitter and I do like to know what the Donald is tweeting cuz that's what his twitter followers are reading. As to the "failing NYT' legitimizing his tweets or giving them undue attention, the serious reader can ignore the article and column, kind like changing channels on the tube. As mentioned above, please do not worry that Trump followers are reading the NYT for information. If they were, Hillary would be president.
As to the tweets, the overwhelming comments I read daily in the WaPo and the NYT are running approximately 100 to 1 against Trump in the times and approx 30 to 1 in WaPO.
The folks reading these publications have the Donald's number. In brief, he is venal, vain and base. He has no knowledge of the world that is useful to governing.
So, as we pour our hearts out in our comments, it is clear that no one is fooled by this utter fool other than those who have been duped into supporting him.
I do not follow him on twitter and I do like to know what the Donald is tweeting cuz that's what his twitter followers are reading. As to the "failing NYT' legitimizing his tweets or giving them undue attention, the serious reader can ignore the article and column, kind like changing channels on the tube. As mentioned above, please do not worry that Trump followers are reading the NYT for information. If they were, Hillary would be president.
As to the tweets, the overwhelming comments I read daily in the WaPo and the NYT are running approximately 100 to 1 against Trump in the times and approx 30 to 1 in WaPO.
The folks reading these publications have the Donald's number. In brief, he is venal, vain and base. He has no knowledge of the world that is useful to governing.
So, as we pour our hearts out in our comments, it is clear that no one is fooled by this utter fool other than those who have been duped into supporting him.
7
At this rate he is going to be calling for beheadings by June. And no one will care.
23
This is really sad. Not because Trump has said such a foolish thing. That's expected. What's sad is the US Senate actually taking a vote to make burning the flag illegal. Being made up of lawyers who know better but would rather support a popular but silly and dangerous law simply to get re-elected.
By the way I'm not impressed that Hillary Clinton voted against the measure especially after sponsoring legislation to do the same thing but in a "cute" way by disallowing flag burning when it could cause a violent response. It's even more dangerous law since it would leave in the hands of a government official to decide who and when one party could burn the flag but disallow it for another.
By the way I'm not impressed that Hillary Clinton voted against the measure especially after sponsoring legislation to do the same thing but in a "cute" way by disallowing flag burning when it could cause a violent response. It's even more dangerous law since it would leave in the hands of a government official to decide who and when one party could burn the flag but disallow it for another.
3
Wait until Mr. Trump is talking about something that really matters, and proposing something he can actually make happen! (Or circles back to such, if you feel he already has -- )
All this "fear" and "outrage" and "anxiety" and so forth about Trump's latest bit of "creative hyperbole" (or whatever he called it in one of his books) is just unnecessary, and wasteful. Save it for when it's needed!
All this "fear" and "outrage" and "anxiety" and so forth about Trump's latest bit of "creative hyperbole" (or whatever he called it in one of his books) is just unnecessary, and wasteful. Save it for when it's needed!
4
AGREED! I thought all of us on in the left were smarter than this! I'm sure the racist sexist men and the clueless women who voted for him think he can wave save his magic pen and make any law, but c'mon guys. He has no power to do nearly all the nonsense he says he is going to do. Furthermore he is reneging on promises almost daily. Let's sit back with a nice cold drink and watch GW 2.0 (extreme edition) run its course. I know there will be laughs and probably a big fat impeachment before it's over.
4
i think a lot of us in america are puzzling over trump's outrageous tweets because america has had little or no historical experience with fascism. but if you consider his tweets in terms of the dynamics of right-wing populist or fascist politics, they are not so strange. trump was elected as a charismatic leader appealing to base emotions and promising a new style of politics that breaks with and transcends the system ("big government" etc). governing, including putting together a cabinet, however, is a messy, dirty business of compromises, horse-trading and all the mundane, non-transcendental values that trump repudiates or that promise to harm many of his supporters (eg. ending obamacare). trump's tweets are throwing red meat to his extremist base, renergizing the furies and emotions that bind charismatic leader and masses. meanwhile, behind the scenes dirty politics of self-interest, business interests, privatization, etc. begins to take shape in his cabinet choices.
15
It's treason in itself and he should be impeached for proposing it. Is the second amendment the only one that's of importance?
8
So if he hadn't had the 25 million dollars to settle his Trump U. fraud lawsuit, he'd probably be in jail now, right? No wonder he wants everybody to talk about flag-burning. And the NYTimes fell for it!!!!
5
Go look up the difference between criminal law and civil law and get back to us.
4
You're missing the point.
And what will the end result be? Anarchists and left-wingers burning American flags by the bushel in response, which really won't make Democrats defending their actions in the name of freedom look very good in the arena of American public opinion. He's playing you all like cats on a string! Don't you KNOW that? Judging by how serious the NYT became in this editorial, I reckon not.
Perhaps the most memorable line from Heath Ledger's Joker in The Dark Knight was, "Madness is like gravity, all you need is a little push." Trump's going to be tweeting and pushing you anti-Trumpers into sheer madness over the next eight years of his presidency, and it will be even more joyous to this Yankee redneck than watching that three-ring circus train wreck of a primary and general election. Trump may not Make America Areat Again, but he sure is Making America Fun Again.
Perhaps the most memorable line from Heath Ledger's Joker in The Dark Knight was, "Madness is like gravity, all you need is a little push." Trump's going to be tweeting and pushing you anti-Trumpers into sheer madness over the next eight years of his presidency, and it will be even more joyous to this Yankee redneck than watching that three-ring circus train wreck of a primary and general election. Trump may not Make America Areat Again, but he sure is Making America Fun Again.
8
Thank goodness for free speech! At least Trump can tweet whatever he wants... =/
1
I don't believe it is okay for him to make such a statement that he will take away one's citizenship for their actions. I also do not think it is okay to burn a flag but one's citizenship is a constitutional right which cannot be taken away just because someone expressed how they felt. If Trump tries to do as he says, it would be violating the First Amendment. We truly just need more compassion and understanding. I really wish he would think about what he says before saying it because such statements can really take a toll on everyone and push their emotional buttons to the farthest degree.
I do not condone burning the flag at all. But by saying our citizenship will be revoked is very close to being a dictator, "My time, My rules" ain't gonna cut it. Get ready for a backlash on the First Amendment if it really gets pushed.
8
Perhaps the sixties are over. Perhaps the Afroyim case does not say quite what some would wish. And perhaps this is just another day in media manipulation. Who is manipulating and who is being manipulated will be overlooked in all the frenzy about a tweet. Sure hope that isn't deliberate.
Dear Donald: I have another form of expression for you, and it involves my hand and it's longest finger. Proud American and New Yorker here!
15
Republicans who defile the Constitution by refusing to hold hearings on a Supreme Court nominee because he was nominated by a Democrat should also loose their citizenship. Now that would help clean out the garbage in Congress.
17
Trump tells the media to bark and the media responds to their masters command.
Trump is playing the media for fools. Amazing that folks dont see that.
Trump is playing the media for fools. Amazing that folks dont see that.
17
Trump is going to do for flag merchants what President Obama did, unintentionally, for gun merchants. People will be buying flags with the express purpose of burning them. Trump certainly has a unique ability to inspire people!
3
And all those flags (or at least a large percentage of them--somewhere in the 90s) are made in China.
Good way to help our trade imbalance!
Good way to help our trade imbalance!
2
How about one ongoing article below the fold titled, "Stupid Things Trump Says," and update it as-is, so that we don't have to be distracted -- which is what he wants.
5
Great job Donald.
The supreme court has ruled that taking citizenship away for punishment to a crime is unconstitutional.
Great job Donald;maybe you are unqualified for president.
The supreme court, with your alleged jurisprudence hero, Anthony Scalia writing the majority opinion has said that flag burning is not a crime.
Great job Donald; a qualified president-elect would know these things and one who has good judgement in choosing staff with have people around them who also knew things.
Great job forty eight and a half percent of America ... you've made a boob into a president.
The supreme court has ruled that taking citizenship away for punishment to a crime is unconstitutional.
Great job Donald;maybe you are unqualified for president.
The supreme court, with your alleged jurisprudence hero, Anthony Scalia writing the majority opinion has said that flag burning is not a crime.
Great job Donald; a qualified president-elect would know these things and one who has good judgement in choosing staff with have people around them who also knew things.
Great job forty eight and a half percent of America ... you've made a boob into a president.
10
This is coming from the guy who groped women and bragged about it, who claimed he could shoot someone and not lose voters, who would put Hilary in jail just for being his political opponent, who misused foundation money, discriminated against black people, embraced white supremacists, encouraged his supporters to rough up protesters, defrauded people, refused to pay workers, and wants to bring back torture. Those things are apparently all fine, but don't burn the flag, that will get you jail time.
12
Trump tweets this arrant nonsense - and then lets it slip that Steve Mnuchin is his choice for Secretary of the Treasury. He makes Bannon a senior advisor - and everyone goes after that rather than the stomach-turning surge in hate crimes, documented by the FBI (hardly a Democratic-learning organization, as we learned from the run up to the election). The absurd spectacle of the Trump transition process distracts from the *insane* idea, floated by the President-Elect himself in his Tourrette's-like Twitter postings, that he doesn't have to sell his businesses or put them in a blind trust, but can have his kids run it - even while he invites them to meet heads ot state; etc etc etc. This is what the end of democracy looks like as an oligarch takes over. We either fight this tide or some of us will have to flee it.........
8
It will be quite interesting to see if this clown can still be a clown when he goes to the WH in January. He has been successfully bluffing his way into everything he has done in his life. Is he going to pay for any of this? Will Americans eventually call his bluff? How will the payback look like? I can't wait to find out.
3
He managed to get himself out of bankruptcy more than once, I think what he will do is look at this country's budget as though it's a giant business (which it really is, we just decide who's supposed to work for us), crunch some numbers, and possibly not only lower but eventually, given enough time, eliminate the national debt.
Just give the guy a chance, OK?
Just give the guy a chance, OK?
1
frankly, I think the country will pay. Donnie boy will slither out from the consequences until he steps on one too many feet.
1
How did he manage to bankrupt himself multiple times anyway? He was born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
2
Make America great again by reducing freedoms and locking more people up!! Great for some but not all!!
3
Yikes! Way to much digital buzz. Would we have known so much about a president-elect 25, 50 or 100 years ago 60 days before his inauguration? Look at the bright side. If we don't like Trump after a couple years we'll know all the facts and can vote him out for 2020.
1
I've been saying for WEEKS, just give the guy a chance. After all, there were idiots who voted Obama in TWICE, give Trump at least the first 4 years before they start screaming "I TOLD YOU SO"!!
Personally, I voted for Trump, I think his unique style of leadership will work wonders for the country.
Personally, I voted for Trump, I think his unique style of leadership will work wonders for the country.
1
Four years: 1861-1865, 1914-1918, 1941-1945, is a long long time uncertain conditions.
5
I might just get a Twitter account so I can blast away at our Tweeter-in-Chief. Aside from the obvious unconstitutional issues at hand here, does DJT think a year in jail and stripping someone of their citizenship are vaguely equivalent? It is just moronic.
8
He's announcing to all that he will be a dictator. If the law or courts disagree with him, he will flout the law and court rulings. He already said he plans to give his businesses to his children to run which means he also doesn't care about conflict of interests. Didn't the Phillippines recently bury a man who engaged in these practices?
5
The American people are not asked to sacrifice anything such as military service and are perfectly content to let others fight the WARS that they encourage.
America has elected someone that has never served his nation in any way and no one has ever told him"NO"
A businessman that has bullied, sued, lied to get where is is today! Is that the kind of person you want your kid to look up to?
America has elected someone that has never served his nation in any way and no one has ever told him"NO"
A businessman that has bullied, sued, lied to get where is is today! Is that the kind of person you want your kid to look up to?
5
Please President Obama, appoint Justice Garland. The senate's refusal to act opens the door to appointing Garland to the bench. There is precedent in the history of the court.
Chief Justice Earl Warren to name just one!
Chief Justice Earl Warren to name just one!
8
Will this be applicable to a white coal mine worker in the Appalachians who might burn a flag in the aftermath of the fury of having lost access to low cost healthcare?
Will this be applicable to a white blue collar worker in central Kansas who burns the flag at being upset that the public schools in the region are getting flushed into the toilet because the education secretary thinks school vouchers are the solution to the ills of our schooling system?
Will this be applicable to the displaced workers in the manufacturing industry who might burn the flag due to the disappointment at getting laid off because the laws curtailing free trade caused a bottom line increase to the cost structure of their company?
Will this be applicable to a white blue collar worker in central Kansas who burns the flag at being upset that the public schools in the region are getting flushed into the toilet because the education secretary thinks school vouchers are the solution to the ills of our schooling system?
Will this be applicable to the displaced workers in the manufacturing industry who might burn the flag due to the disappointment at getting laid off because the laws curtailing free trade caused a bottom line increase to the cost structure of their company?
1
Flag burning as a civil right exists because of a couple of 5-4 court decisions and a one vote failure (66-34 in the Senate). Trump isn't an extremist in this issue, he reflects majority American opinion on this issue in multiple polls. And his opinion is not of course illegal in any way just because his punishment suggestions are currently unconstitutional.
2
There's no doubt that flag-burning is constitutionally protected free speech. However, it is very divisive and may actually distract some people from the purpose of the protest. I suggest hanging and burning Trump and his various associates in effigy. They lack the iconic status of our flag, and the way they are going, they aren't likely to achieve it. Burning detested officials in effigy goes back to the days of the thirteen colonies against the encroachments of the British monarchy. So not only is this practice attention-getting, it is also historically resonant for our times.
7
I keep hearing people say don't worry, the Constitution will protect us. Well, the Constitution is whatever the Supreme Court says it is, and we have a vacancy there. This republic of ours is far more fragile than any of us cares to admit. Welcome to Weimar Germany. Spoiler alert, this doesn't end well.
9
Mike S,
Exactly right.
Exactly right.
2
I watched the PBS News Hour tonight and they did not waste their's or my time with such nonsense silly distractions. Instead they talked about his cabinet nominations and how his policies will effect the world. Maybe the New York Times could follow their example.
3
no, this flag-burning pronouncement is not a "silly distraction", it's the mark of a person too foolish to run a country where free speech is a basic right
3
Trump's tweets are a lesson of spontaneity, brash, cursive and reactionary. He did not state to literally strip citizenship; he tweeted as a concerned citizen who believes the American Flag is a sacred symbol and not an exercise in free speech. Majority of the commentators are Hillary loyalists, holding on to the slim chance that the recount will overturn the election. They hang on to every word that Trump's tweets and consider it as truth. He is a man who tweets what he feels and thinks; giving little regard to its consequences. He is an atypical politician who has turned the political world upside down.The Hillary hooligans believe that she was entitled to the presidency and how dare Trump outperform her in democratic strong holds and wooing the working-class! To the die hards, re-read the article and see the part regarding Hillary's attempt to propose legislation to protect the American flag; only to oppose her own legislation. It is what President Obama had said in 2008 as a candidate," Hillary will say and do anything to get elected." I believe the anger should be directed toward Hillary for not defeating such a poor candidate; for not electrifying the Obama coalition and for ignoring and excluding the working class while including others. Think how different it would have been if Bernie or Warren had been nominated. It is that she was a defective candidate that allowed Trump to win!
2
Round up immigrants. Fill Guantanamo with Bed Dudes. Deny the legalities of Trump Hotel DC. Threaten those of us who could conceive of burning the flag in our frustration by declaring we will loose our citizenship. "Governing" by tweet. I am sick with dread and only wish that groping were the worst of this person "we" have elected. To be what? To do what? Just look at what this person is already doing.
6
Yes Frisco, he certainly is getting a leg up on his regime, isn't he?
I am hoping without much hope that the electoral is listening and reading about all the ridiculous things the "president elect" has to say. Two electors, one from Georgia and the other from Texas have resigned. I really pray the electors get together and decide to give Hillary their vote and stop the madness. Again I say, this man is only out for himself and his name and will drive this country into a period of despair we haven't experienced since the great depression. DT has no idea about anything and just likes the sound of this own voice. When we go down in flames, the blame will be on those who didn't vote, the republican's who let it happen and those foolish enough to follow and believe him. He is unfit and this latest shows how much he doesn't know. He will do more damage than any President has ever done and will go down in history as the worst president ever if we don't stop the madness of Donald Trump before it's too late.
8
The front page of the NYT has many stories about Trump today -- his appalling cabinet picks, his business conflicts of interest, immigration policy, jobs. I am really tired of the "the media is just being distracted" argument. Responsible media is perfectly capable of covering more than one story at a time. I am capable of reading more than one story in a day, and prioritizing content. Trump's tweets need to be covered -- they belong on the record. I, for one, care very much that he tweeted information gleaned from Infowars or some other appalling source. I care when he makes it clear that he couldn't pass an 11th grade Constitution test. It's not normal. Thanks to the NYT and others, we are in no immediate danger of mistaking his behavior for normal.
8
Gotta think this is a misdirection play to draw attention away from important current matters such as appointments, conflicts of interest, nominations et al. Either that or PE Trump thinks observers are more out of touch than his landslide popular-vote majority (after fraud adjustments).
What is a flag? Is a picture of a flag still a flag? Is a canvas painting of a flag a flag? Are stars and stripes sewn onto a piece a clothing a flag? Are red, white and blue candles arranged as a flag a flag? You can see where this is going.
The American flag is a symbol of our great country, but nothing more. A flag has no intrinsic value, except as metaphor. An American flag is an ideal expressed in cloth... or ink or paint or candles. You can destroy a flag, but you can't destroy an ideal.
The American flag is a symbol of our great country, but nothing more. A flag has no intrinsic value, except as metaphor. An American flag is an ideal expressed in cloth... or ink or paint or candles. You can destroy a flag, but you can't destroy an ideal.
6
Reminds me of a rally last year when Trump walked on stage and as he passed the American flag he patted it like you say excuse me to someone or maybe more like patting a little child on the head.
It was almost as if he was saying, Say hi to your Mother for me kid, if that makes any sense.
It was almost as if he was saying, Say hi to your Mother for me kid, if that makes any sense.
1
The man dodged the draft through connections and bone spurs. (While he played basketball, golf and pretend NY military school soldier) Flag wavers care more about a piece of cloth than the people who served it.
3
To Donald Trump: When, during your vitriolic campaign for the Presidency, you suggested that your supporters should exercise their "2nd Amendment rights" and assassinate your opponent, Hillary Clinton, you, Donald Trump, were burning our American flag. When you instigated violence by your supporters against Americans who opposed you or against those whom you disliked, you were burning our American flag. When you engaged in the demagoguery of Neo-Nazis, Fascists, and the Ku Klux Klan, you were not only burning our American flag; you were micturating upon our national emblem as well. Do you really think that decent, hard-working Americans are going to put up with your despicable mien and intolerant temperament -- which can only be characterized as the traits of a despot? Beware your words and acts lest they imprint the swastika sign upon Old Glory. You will make King George III look like a saint in comparison to yourself.
5
You really need to stop reporting on what he says and instead report on what he does. You need to remove his voice. Did you learn nothing from the election?
1
In the words of our soon to be 45th president,
"Once again Trump demonstrates that he is unqualified to lead our great nation - SAD!"
"Once again Trump demonstrates that he is unqualified to lead our great nation - SAD!"
3
Everyone keeps saying that Trump will pick the next Supreme Court Justice and fill the Federal courts with all kinds of demagogues.
But it doesn't have to happen. President Obama CAN prevent it.
Unlike the failed recess appointment to the consumer finance protection agency, the Senate WILL have to formally and fully go into recess at the end of the year as the 114th Congress adjourns in December, before the 115th Congress assembles on January 3rd.
President Obama can, in that interim, appoint Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court for 1 year, and fill the desperately understaffed Federal courts too. Many of the appointees can be Republicans--some being blocked by Republicans ARE Republican. And, after a year of Trump, it may well be that those judges and that 5th Justice make the difference and protect us for the worst excesses.
Further, after a year of fully functioning Federal courts, hopefully with rational and reasonable decisions, are the Republicans REALLY going to toss them all out en masse? Just because Obama appointed them in recess? Even if they do, the precedents established in clearing out the backlog of cases will form judicial law for years to come.
They won't be able to impeach the recess appointments because they'll never get 67 votes in the Senate to convict. And, given the force of the changeover of the Congress, the SCOTUS will not deny the recess is real.
So let's push President Obama to make those recess appointments and give the nation time.
But it doesn't have to happen. President Obama CAN prevent it.
Unlike the failed recess appointment to the consumer finance protection agency, the Senate WILL have to formally and fully go into recess at the end of the year as the 114th Congress adjourns in December, before the 115th Congress assembles on January 3rd.
President Obama can, in that interim, appoint Merrick Garland to the Supreme Court for 1 year, and fill the desperately understaffed Federal courts too. Many of the appointees can be Republicans--some being blocked by Republicans ARE Republican. And, after a year of Trump, it may well be that those judges and that 5th Justice make the difference and protect us for the worst excesses.
Further, after a year of fully functioning Federal courts, hopefully with rational and reasonable decisions, are the Republicans REALLY going to toss them all out en masse? Just because Obama appointed them in recess? Even if they do, the precedents established in clearing out the backlog of cases will form judicial law for years to come.
They won't be able to impeach the recess appointments because they'll never get 67 votes in the Senate to convict. And, given the force of the changeover of the Congress, the SCOTUS will not deny the recess is real.
So let's push President Obama to make those recess appointments and give the nation time.
4
I wonder if King Donald has ever read the Constitution.
1
Ignore what he says. Watch what he does.
4
It is very nice to be able to learn the US systems and history on nyt,
including its constitution and several laws, almost everyday, due to
Trump's such kind of tweets.
including its constitution and several laws, almost everyday, due to
Trump's such kind of tweets.
1
NYT, please stop writing about Trump's tweets. That is exactly what he wants and all the media is falling for it again!
1
Please, president-elect Trump, READ the Constitution. The 1st Amendment covers this so you won't have to read too far (in case you "lose interest").
1
I grew up Catholic in the buckle of the Bible Belt with nonCatholics insisting that we prayed to statues. I would explain that it was just art work to remind us of the great leaders of our past. Now those same folks are treating the flag like it's a first class relic, touched by the hand of Jesus. It's as symbol. Absolutely nothing more. In fact I don't much like "pledging allegiance to it. Kind of like praying to statues.
5
Steve Bannon wants people to burn flags to protest Trump saying that burning flags should be illegal. That's why he told Trump to issue that tweet.
Then, when you burn flags, Trump and his merry men will use the events to distract people and whip his most rabid base. His ultimate goal is to subvert the Bill of Rights.
The lesson: never play into Trump's hands.
Or his puppet master Bannon.
Don't burn flags.
Burn life-size cardboard figures of Trump.
Don't forget the marshmallows for some humor.
Everybody likes humor.
Then, when you burn flags, Trump and his merry men will use the events to distract people and whip his most rabid base. His ultimate goal is to subvert the Bill of Rights.
The lesson: never play into Trump's hands.
Or his puppet master Bannon.
Don't burn flags.
Burn life-size cardboard figures of Trump.
Don't forget the marshmallows for some humor.
Everybody likes humor.
3
Look! A shiny object! Another day in the life of Trump tweets. Sigh. Four more years of this is pretty much unbearable.
the ultimate Drama Queen creates more drama. yawn.
Watch out for our freedoms vanishing as Trump restricts the press from covering his activities, and creating crises to justify emergency security measures. Trump can gradually uproot our democratic foundations with the help of his henchmen in the cabinet and congress. He came to power shouting lies and falsehood to the suffering white Americans. Now, they have their strongman and voice, but we will have our constitution to confront his actions to a point.
3
I'm angry and appalled at the messages Trump is sending to the rest of the world. He says our own election was crooked because millions voted illegally. Does he realize that other countries that actually struggle to hold straight elections are listening to this? I wonder what Jimmy Carter is thinking!
Now he says people should lose their citizenship if they burn a flag. This man is nuts.
We've always had the luxury here of living in a country of laws. Bad laws, sometimes, but the laws could be changed. Now we're throwing it all away, and it boggles my mind every day that we have turned over our country to this narciccistic, money-mad, heartless crumb of a man.
Now he says people should lose their citizenship if they burn a flag. This man is nuts.
We've always had the luxury here of living in a country of laws. Bad laws, sometimes, but the laws could be changed. Now we're throwing it all away, and it boggles my mind every day that we have turned over our country to this narciccistic, money-mad, heartless crumb of a man.
5
If the flag is truly a symbol of the nation its deepest foundation the life itensures, as well as a representative of the lives that have been sacrificed to keep the country in existence then I agree with Trump. When my father and uncles all of them veterans died of old age there were military there to present us with American flags. Why? Flag burning began in earnest in the 1960s and was always an anti social, misled, immature,anger fueled way to protest one generations disapproval of anothers lifestyle and way of thinking. It is an obsolete, immature to express ones rage. YOu hate the country so much that you would burn in effigy its symbol, then maybe its time to go somewhere else? Now is a different time. It is not 1968 anymore.
1
I'm sure that many will see the state associated with this account and write off my words. I'm sure some will write off my words because I'll admit to being a veteran...but I've never voted for the GOP ever in a national election or even at the state level. I voted for HRC this time too. But if the left in this country hopes to win any further elections they have to come up with some self-identifier than being pro-flag burning. It's a disgrace to equate flag burning with rational speech. It may be in some cases warranted but how most who undertake it use that symbolism is simply counter culture act that has little meaning other than making their political enemies upset. But it makes lots of us in the middle who want to vote Dem feel like the Dems have become the party of radicals. That's not how you respond to Trump or loosing the election. If the Dems have a future it will not be in defense of flag burning but in defending the flag. Those in the counter culture should not be in charge of the Democratic Party. That perspective is only good for parties who have given up on winning in the future. The act of burning a flag makes me and other veterans so mad that it will drive away this noble group from ever considering a Dem candidate again. What has happened to my party?
3
Donald should take up Mr Khan's offer.
4
What part of 1st Amendment doesn't he (or his advisors and lawyers) understand. This has been settled for years, and to even suggest scaling back 1st Amendment rights shows Trump's disdain for the American people.
2
Hey Aaron Adams,
No, I won't get used to it. No, I won't settle down. The Tangerine and his machine need to be watched closely while being held accountable. The Shrub and Cheney, their cronies, still have to answer for their crimes as well.
Too many cattle in this country, and that shows little respect to my cattle.
No, I won't get used to it. No, I won't settle down. The Tangerine and his machine need to be watched closely while being held accountable. The Shrub and Cheney, their cronies, still have to answer for their crimes as well.
Too many cattle in this country, and that shows little respect to my cattle.
4
Please stop giving oxygen to Trump's "false flag" tweets. He is playing the
American public masterfully. This latest American flag tweet is to distract us from what is going on in his nascent administration. He's no dummy - he knows what he is proposing is unconstitutional. If Trump won't stop tweeting, at least we can stop paying attention to his tweets, because they are just meaningless noise.
American public masterfully. This latest American flag tweet is to distract us from what is going on in his nascent administration. He's no dummy - he knows what he is proposing is unconstitutional. If Trump won't stop tweeting, at least we can stop paying attention to his tweets, because they are just meaningless noise.
3
How soon and where will be our first experience with Trumpian martial law?
2
What about promoting unconstitutional laws against dissent? Maybe THAT is who ought to lose their citizenship. He can go live in one of his hotels almost anywhere else. Maybe Russia would be a good choice.
3
Why is the NYT or any of the mainstream media not reporting on the elephant in the room: the mental health of the president-elect? Everyone can see that he is deeply unbalanced and psychologically and emotionally unfit for office. Are we all just going to pretend this isn't happening? Will the NYT please look into this question? There is too much at stake to take the absurd path of no resistance in the name of decorum. That, too, would be insanity. Please report on this!
6
Why do you all keep paying attention to his balloons and red flags? Keep your eyes on the coin, not the upturned cups. Watch Chaplin's "The Great Dictator". Get a simple understanding of how this simple - and yes, frightening - little man works. Then you will understand what it is worth reacting to and what it is worth ignoring, at least publicly. You all keep fanning the flames of the paranoid narcissism and dissipating your own energies for fighting the real and vicious battles that must be won.
2
It is a constitutional issue. Free speech protects flag burning. Flags are symbols. There's no harm in burning them.
1
The flag is a symbol of our country. Many veterans who have fought for this country are protesting. I don't blame them, even though we have the right to burn the flag under the First Amendment of the Constitution.
Trump is wrong when he calls for possible jail time or loss of citizenship for burning the United States flag. I refer him to the Constitution.
Trump is wrong when he calls for possible jail time or loss of citizenship for burning the United States flag. I refer him to the Constitution.
1
It sad that we have a future President who knows nothing and mean nothing about our Constitution and the major decisions of the Supreme Court on issues he
spouts. His conduct is that of a future dictator not a President of the United States. One day after his swearing in will be one less day he is president.
Hopefully, we will make through without too much damage to our country.
Maybe if we are lucky he will be legally removed from office before his term is up,
spouts. His conduct is that of a future dictator not a President of the United States. One day after his swearing in will be one less day he is president.
Hopefully, we will make through without too much damage to our country.
Maybe if we are lucky he will be legally removed from office before his term is up,
4
To the current conservatives in the Supreme Court... This will teach you to be careful what you wish for.
2
The constitution does not allow taking away a person's freedom without his permission. Close all prisons and release all inmates.
1
The operative requirement is "due process" wherein the truth of the accusations and the intent of the accused can can be judged.
Can a President Elect be impeached?
6
As it should be. If you can't deliver a speech without a wall of American flags being used as little more then mere drapery behind you your citizenship ought to be revoked as well. The same goes for people who desecrate the sacred flag by putting it on their car bumpers as mere decorative accessories. And what's with all the U.S. cars we see with fish on their rears? What's that about, eh?
2
he's simply playing to his base
and toying with everyone else.
99.9999% of those who voted
for him would agree with the sentiment.
(i firmly believe colin kaepernick was a huge
help to the trump campaign)
can he do it?
no.
does it make everyone who didn't vote for him crazee?
yes.
print the banner.
"mission accomplished"
and toying with everyone else.
99.9999% of those who voted
for him would agree with the sentiment.
(i firmly believe colin kaepernick was a huge
help to the trump campaign)
can he do it?
no.
does it make everyone who didn't vote for him crazee?
yes.
print the banner.
"mission accomplished"
3
Let's see, hmm, the Constitution, I'll take the second amendment. The first amendment,hmm, nah. trump's a la cartel view of the U.S. Bill of Rights.
1
The flag doesn't need protection; the flag is strong because of the ideals that it represents, including freedom of expression. The flag actually represents the right to burn the flag.
4
Seems a bit like common hyperbole. For example, he could have said "they should be skinned alive" without believing he would actually try to bring about that eventuality.
1
Odd that the President elect thinks flag burning should be a crime but has no problem with not paying taxes. Perhaps he thinks our brave women and men in the armed forces would like flags instead of money for their service.
7
What struck me about his tweet is his view that revoking your citizenship is the same punishment as a year in jail. Is that all the value he places his citizenship?
5
The U.S. Flag code states that, “the flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning.”
So it's not the act he wants to criminalize, it's the intent behind it: a "thoughtcrime," per Orwell. Punishable not by revocation of citizenship, but by death.
So it's not the act he wants to criminalize, it's the intent behind it: a "thoughtcrime," per Orwell. Punishable not by revocation of citizenship, but by death.
3
Democracy emerged from feudalism after trade with colonies and early industrial changes created multiple points of competing economic interest - no longer were King, country and wealth all of one class. The industrial revolution created vastly more separate owners of individual wealth. This required by nature a manner to settle issues by consensus, and the foundation for society's support for democracy was set.
Fast forward to today, and once again we have extreme concentration of wealth. No wonder, then, that that has acted to shape legislation via campaign contributions and corporate influence to the key concerns of privilege: no taxation, and no rules. Too, the wealth is often transnational, so that the future for the wealthy citizen is not intertwined at all with the fate of fellow citizens or country, making policy purely distillable to short-term profiteering without real consequence.
With the wealth distribution in the dangerous state that it is, odd that Americans somehow thought electing a member of the aristocracy to office would be a good idea! Do not be surprised, then, by the foibles and whimsical statements of our betters, my fellow Americans; our place now is to remain silent and in the kitchen, like good little serfs.
Fast forward to today, and once again we have extreme concentration of wealth. No wonder, then, that that has acted to shape legislation via campaign contributions and corporate influence to the key concerns of privilege: no taxation, and no rules. Too, the wealth is often transnational, so that the future for the wealthy citizen is not intertwined at all with the fate of fellow citizens or country, making policy purely distillable to short-term profiteering without real consequence.
With the wealth distribution in the dangerous state that it is, odd that Americans somehow thought electing a member of the aristocracy to office would be a good idea! Do not be surprised, then, by the foibles and whimsical statements of our betters, my fellow Americans; our place now is to remain silent and in the kitchen, like good little serfs.
2
Burning is actually the prescribed means to destroy a flag that has been soiled.
Should there be an exemption for burning US flags made in China?
Should there be an exemption for burning US flags made in China?
5
The comments that point out how Trump likes to create diversions like this when there are serious issues he would rather obscure are right on-the-mark.
Nonetheless, Trump's contempt for our liberties can not be ignored. He is putting together a team, with Bannon in the middle of it, that would be eminently capable of either finding or creating a pretext to declare martial law, at which point our liberties may well become a thing of the past.
If this sounds hysterical, just consider the level of resistance that is developing from local governments to his plans for mass deportations. Don't think Trump would refrain from extreme measures if this gets in his way.
Remember the old saying, "do what you want, it's a free country"? It could become a historical curiosity.
Nonetheless, Trump's contempt for our liberties can not be ignored. He is putting together a team, with Bannon in the middle of it, that would be eminently capable of either finding or creating a pretext to declare martial law, at which point our liberties may well become a thing of the past.
If this sounds hysterical, just consider the level of resistance that is developing from local governments to his plans for mass deportations. Don't think Trump would refrain from extreme measures if this gets in his way.
Remember the old saying, "do what you want, it's a free country"? It could become a historical curiosity.
4
"Nobody should be allow to be president-elect when he fails to show his last 10 years of taxes and doesn't want to make public who his lenders and has a potential business conflicts of interest around the world... If he is, there must be consequences- perhaps loss of citizenship or a year in jail!"
I am not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance, Mr Trump.
Voluntarily, Release your taxes for the past ten years.
Place your business operations in a completely independent and blind trust.
and put "Trump" licensing business on hold while president...
Maybe is it time for legitimate sacrifices, Mr.Trump.
I am not going to censor myself to comfort your ignorance, Mr Trump.
Voluntarily, Release your taxes for the past ten years.
Place your business operations in a completely independent and blind trust.
and put "Trump" licensing business on hold while president...
Maybe is it time for legitimate sacrifices, Mr.Trump.
5
The American flag is not the Holy Eucharist (or some equivalent religious object). It cannot be "desecrated" if the very cloth is not sacred in the first place, which it is not. The whole notion smells like a sort of secular religion, and has no place in this arena. (Do we have to kneel too? Good heavens, people.)
We fought this war in the 60's and we should be tired of it by now. Hippies wore American flags sewn across the butt end of their levis, which proved something to someone. There was enough of that kind of behavior to bring the whole controversy into disrepute.
We fought this war in the 60's and we should be tired of it by now. Hippies wore American flags sewn across the butt end of their levis, which proved something to someone. There was enough of that kind of behavior to bring the whole controversy into disrepute.
2
As some European countries do, setup a program where all US Citizens serve some mandatory period in the military. This goes for incoming immigrants as well. Once all who partake of what the US has to offer understand that it does not come free, that some had to fight for and die to afford those privileges, then all will understand why some feel strongly about our flag and patriotism.
1
Be more direct---burn a flag with Trump's likeness on it. Or a Confederate flag.
3
This is going to be a long long four years.....
6
Today's top progressive issue is: flag burning rights. Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders will be hosting a flag burning rally just as soon as Jill Stein can raise $10 million for flags.
1
These daily eruptions have me really hoping that Congress applies the 25th amendment to declare him to be intellctually, morally and mentally incapacitated, and removes him from office.
9
Trump: Lets denigrate America again.
12
I see now.
This is Steve Bannon telling Donald what to do and say.
We have serious problem.
A problem of misdirect, and substitution, as if a magician is at work.
What are we to do?
This is Steve Bannon telling Donald what to do and say.
We have serious problem.
A problem of misdirect, and substitution, as if a magician is at work.
What are we to do?
6
Presidents who flout the constitution should be construed to have voluntarily surrendered their citizenship.
5
It's all in what the Supreme Court says the Constitution says.
Way to tackle the tough challenges facing America, Mr. President-Elect.
8
He's a smart guy that caters to the ignorants. Deny freedom of expression, but uphold the right to bear arms. What a schnuck.
12
One would think the president elect would have some important work to do?
12
As a Canadian, I was deeply troubled by many things that Mr. Trump (I can't bear to include "President-elect") said and tweeted during the election campaign. I am now even more so, considering that this blight on the presidency will be wreaking havoc on the world stage as well as in the U.S for at least four years. Of the many things Trump has shown us with his tweets is his lack of support for the First Amendment. I cannot understand how he can put the Second Amendment before the First in importance. Freedom of speech and expression is one of the very foundations of American society, no? Well, he IS pretty free with his lies, so maybe he selectively supports the First Amendment when it suits. But seriously, is burning an American flag any less patriotic than shooting up a school of little kids-- the very future of America-- with an assault rifle? Trump seems to tweet whatever comes into his small mind, before he thinks. Then again, I am assuming that upon thinking it over, he would temper his thoughts and remarks...
10
Nancy, you nailed it. Thank you. I while ago there was a spirited discussion thread on a Higher Education site about a professor who was under threat of being fired for spreading conspiracy theories, about the Sandy Hook Children's Massacre not having happened. He was harassing the parents of a boy who was murdered to provide evidence their son ever existed. This engendered a hot discussion about Academic Freedom and the First Amendment. Ultimately the university was able to fire him over him not submitting some forms he should have submitted, not so much about what he had said and done. I fear that Trump has his news and opinions from these same conspiracy theory sites. Conspiracy theories and crackpots have been a staple of American sub-culture for decades - just read Flannery O'Connor to get a taste of it. Unfortunately, it has become a part of mainstream American culture now. And no, Trump does not think over anything. He chooses what he wants to believe in. He behaves like a cult leader, and the public takes to him like they take to these big church TV evangelists who promise prosperity to all who believe in them. Also, beware of Bannon, his Rasputin.
2
We've been allowed to comment on what Trump is saying, but not so much on what he (Mike Pence, that is) is doing. He's filling his cabinet with billionaires and hard-right ideologues. But that's nothing compared with the damage that Paul Ryan and Elaine Chao's husband are planning to inflict upon the country.
They are gearing up for a war on the people. We must resist.
They are gearing up for a war on the people. We must resist.
21
Trump has already done more to destroy democratic principles than the Taliban could ever dream of.
22
That's what fascists do.
2
He thinks he can do this because he truly is uneducated when it comes to the actual things that the Constitution of the United States of America actually says. He has no sense of history or precedent or civics or civil disobedience and he doesn't understand what free speech actually is and how it relates to law. I think that the best thing we can do is to actually burn flags en masse so that we can make a point to this numbskull. With him as president I'm not loving this flag anyway...it's now a horrible and shameful symbol of bigotry, cynicism, racism, and sexual assault as perpetrated by the tax dodger groper in chief. Burn the flag...he'll be very surprised to find out that he can't do a thing about it.
19
I agree. I can no longer pledge allegiance to the flag because the words "with liberty and justice for all" are a total lie. Come to think of it,it's always been a lie and why did I EVER do that?
2
Seriously, I fear that he will turn out to be the most dysfunctional head of state since Henry VIII.
22
And he's only on his third wife! Oh well. I want to see his tax returns.
2
Since President Andrew Johnson.
1
Lordy, so many flags being burned! No wonder we have global warming. Conflagrations everywhere. We'd better all wear our asbestos suits.
Little Donald in his little tweet tweets trying to get his subjects all raging at each other.
Little Donald in his little tweet tweets trying to get his subjects all raging at each other.
15
It must be because all the American flags these days, like his Trump line of ties and shirts, are made in China. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/03/american-flags-china_n_3540287.....
2
I don't want to burn the U.S. flag. I want to burn a stupid red hat with white letters on it.
20
Trump has been burning and stamping on the flag for years.
6
Stripping of citizenship and jail for burning the flag? Frightening. Trump will pervert what America stood for. And don't rely on help from the Supreme Court. He will send judges on the bench who will revoke many of the freedoms earlier courts have awarded to the people.
7
This knee-jerk reportage to Trump's provocative pronouncements is more disturbing than his preposterous tweets. Why not just start a list of these (Trump's Tweets) and leave it at that, without expanding or editorializing? Diminishing his meant-to-be provocative words would be treating them with as little regard as they deserve.
4
Why not waterboarding too?
5
I think this article understates the potential for Trump to actually be able to strip US born citizens of their citizenship. The GOP has proven to be nothing more than a lap dog and they control all of Congress and Trump is likely going to be appointing a number of Supreme Court Justices, who could be completely insane judging from who he thinks is appropriate for his cabinet. At that point, Supreme Court precedent becomes laughable. From there, he could start deporting citizens that disagree with him, which is right in line with the alt-right worldview of making America more white, and presumably with Trump's chief strategist Stephen Bannon's worldview seeing as he ran the self-proclaimed "platform for the alt-right".
You might think this all sounds ridiculous, but you probably thought a Trump presidency sounded ridiculous a year ago, too. We live in dangerous times.
You might think this all sounds ridiculous, but you probably thought a Trump presidency sounded ridiculous a year ago, too. We live in dangerous times.
7
Trump got multiple draft deferments and disparaged the service of a true American hero, John McCain. He has performed no national service.
I am a Vietnam veteran who completely understood those who at least took a stand against that war in a demonstrative way, including flag burning. Trump merely sidestepped without taking a stand. Maybe he should be stripped of his citizenship for non-participation in our democracy one way or the other.
I am a Vietnam veteran who completely understood those who at least took a stand against that war in a demonstrative way, including flag burning. Trump merely sidestepped without taking a stand. Maybe he should be stripped of his citizenship for non-participation in our democracy one way or the other.
19
I just can't understand how veterans could have voted for such a coward. Stranger than fiction. I have admired the McCain family. Generations of patriots.
2
This is a story of passing interest. It is a calculated distraction from Trump's $25 million fraud settlement, his business conflicts and his most recent outrageous claim - that there is widespread voter fraud. Journalism's task is to keep these much more meaningful storied front and center.
17
Here we go again! Circus time.
For reference, the neighboring NY Post website has a link to an "article" today that says 1. HIllary Clinton floated an anti-flag burning bill herself in 2006 and that several countries (Argentina, South Korea, etc..) have anti-flag burning laws.
So, what is basically happening again, is that a wedge was put right there in place by a tweet. Now, the Trump supporters get to start "alt-righting" their own story, pointing fingers at the "politically correct" NY Times and how we "liberals" just complain about everything. Worse, I don't even know if the HIlary part is true! Next comes the talking heads on the news channels supporting the alt-right articles. And you know what? It works! This is how several Midwestern states vote against their own economic interests, miss the platforms of both parties and can't see what is coming next.
So, my advice would be to not go into so much detail about the constitutional realities of flag burning. You just make us look like elitists. I'll bet half the country is okay with flag burning! We need a new way to fight these tweets because we are losing! I would start by giving what he says little attention, but what he does and is much more attention.
For reference, the neighboring NY Post website has a link to an "article" today that says 1. HIllary Clinton floated an anti-flag burning bill herself in 2006 and that several countries (Argentina, South Korea, etc..) have anti-flag burning laws.
So, what is basically happening again, is that a wedge was put right there in place by a tweet. Now, the Trump supporters get to start "alt-righting" their own story, pointing fingers at the "politically correct" NY Times and how we "liberals" just complain about everything. Worse, I don't even know if the HIlary part is true! Next comes the talking heads on the news channels supporting the alt-right articles. And you know what? It works! This is how several Midwestern states vote against their own economic interests, miss the platforms of both parties and can't see what is coming next.
So, my advice would be to not go into so much detail about the constitutional realities of flag burning. You just make us look like elitists. I'll bet half the country is okay with flag burning! We need a new way to fight these tweets because we are losing! I would start by giving what he says little attention, but what he does and is much more attention.
2
This is a man who will select the next Supreme Court appointee. Members of his own party (who now control both houses of Congress) are terrified of him. He will shortly be the Commander-in-Chief of the largest armed forces in the world. He will have access to the nuclear codes. He now tells us we should be stripped of our citizenship for exercising our Constitutionally-protected rights. Many here have opined that these tirades should simply be ignored. What am I missing?
9
"Court rulings prohibit it" you say? Well problem solved. You hear that everyone? Court rulings prohibit it! I'll just shout that at the neo Nazis, who very clearly care about court rulings, and that should take care of everything.
4
I would think your president elect would be a fan of Castro since he is in favor of torture and wants to put people who protest in jail.
8
Does it matter that most of the American Flags are MADE in China, Bangladesh, and by prisoners, as are Trump's haberdashery? Trump's hyperbole and superlatives makes everything else seem boring and quotidien. How much more of this manic's verbiage can we take before we start murdering what is most reasonable about us?
5
This is crazy and he is not even president yet. The best thing that could happen would be for the Electoral College to tell him "you're fired!"
6
IF we're gonna punish people for misusing their freedom of speech/expression I think we should start with punishing presidential candidates who deliberately LIE and MISLEAD the people voting for them for their own personal gain. To me that sounds like a MUCH MORE DAMAGING misuse of freedom of speech than some private citizen person burning some piece of cloth somewhere.
9
So frauds to the left of me , And frauds to the right of me.
what's a real independent to do .
what's a real independent to do .
4
Once again Trump displays his abject disrespect for the Constitution. I often wonder if Mr. Trump really has much idea what rights and liberties are protected in our Constitution. Given his frequent displays of willful ignorance, I doubt he is aware that the Supreme Court upheld the right to burn a flag as protected free speech. He also doesn't seem to understand our citizenship laws - again, government cannot deprive someone of their citizenship per the 14th Amendment. Our most sacred right is dissent - the right to not have to agree with those temporarily elected to office. For someone who has declared he will only appoint "strict Constitutionalists" to the Supreme Court, he doesn't appear to even know what is in the documents he seeks to have strictly interpreted. Mr. Trump needs to be reminded frequently that he isn't a dictator, though he apparently would like to be one. After all, he also has said he doesn't see any conflicts of interest between his Presidency and his business interests. It's looking more and more like we have elected someone who aspires to be a tin pot dictator - not the President of the leader or the free world.
6
I have to agree with Trump.. then again i am an american and veteran.. nothing worse than some pos that hasnt served in the military, burningvwhat we defended with our lives.. law or not, let me catch you burning or defacing our flag.. you will get stoomped...
1
Good post, we need more folks like you, who if they see a Flag burning, will do something about it.
Of course Don wants to strip flag-burners of their citizenship ..... so that the cross-burners have more elbow-room!
12
He just makes me want to burn a flag every day of the week until he is no longer president. He is truly an ignorant and dangerous man who disrespects people with all who care about our country as a beacon for good. Go ahead and lock me up. I am a patriot who mourns the day he was elected.
7
Though likely just another of his manipulative distractions from all the other horrendous issues for which he's provoked outrage, I too shamefully took his bait. His comment, alone, provokes such outrage in me that I want to burn every flag I see. And I've never felt this urge before.
2
There are two sides to this controversy. There are many patriotic Americans who are horrified and emotionally affected when our flag is ripped off a flag pole, stomped on and destroyed. The liberal posts are wrong to say that Mr. Trump is evil to suggest punishment for such action when there has always been loyal Americans who feel that destroying the American flag is not only disloyalty but comes nearer to treason. And if we suggest such a thing we are the idiots? No, we have respect for our flag that was still flying in the dawns early light, and should evermore wave over the land of the free and those brave ones who lost their lives defending it. It's time for AMERICANS who love our country to stand up and defend the symbol that represents our strength and freedom. Physically damaging the flag is not speech, it is an act of wilful vandalism and should not be ignored.
1
So, burn a US flag and you're out but dodge the US draft and you can be president?
Gotcha'!
Gotcha'!
18
If you burnt every flag in the country America would still be here strong and great as it always is. A person has to feel very fragile and weak if burning a flag disturbs them so.
We can be so disgusting sometimes. I remember after 9/11 the first day or so there were cars with American flags flapping on them allover. In a few days time I saw many of these flags in roadside ditches after they blew off the car and the driver was too lazy to go back and pick them up. Burning a flag should do nothing to the country, in fact the freedom to do so is what makes our nation great all the time.
We can be so disgusting sometimes. I remember after 9/11 the first day or so there were cars with American flags flapping on them allover. In a few days time I saw many of these flags in roadside ditches after they blew off the car and the driver was too lazy to go back and pick them up. Burning a flag should do nothing to the country, in fact the freedom to do so is what makes our nation great all the time.
9
If he's such a Patriot, he should talk about re-instituting the military draft. That will enable him to send thousands of more troops around the world to fight his despised Muslims. Then we'll see a lot of flag burning. Let the protesting begin!
8
Don't you see, it's another sop to his base of militant patriots. He's just saying what many people who voted for him want to hear -- punish the rabble who dare burn the American flag! It doesn't matter whether this is legal or whether anything comes of it, all of these angry people will be pleased that he is on their side.
11
Is it OK to use an American flag to clean a gun?
2
He is even more ignorant than I thought....
11
This is simple: the flag is the hair of our country. Can't burn that.
Trump wants to project God's wrath that a divine idol like the flag should be sacrificed in a hedonistic ceremony.
Who feels like burning an American flag ? Not any average, sane person.
Burning the flag is not free speech. It is an anti-social act. Trump is right that they must be punished. But he is wrong in extreme suggestions like stripping citizenship or long incarceration.
Usually these are young people, and community service can channel their misdirected energy and anger towards something productive to the society and our country.
Burning the flag is not free speech. It is an anti-social act. Trump is right that they must be punished. But he is wrong in extreme suggestions like stripping citizenship or long incarceration.
Usually these are young people, and community service can channel their misdirected energy and anger towards something productive to the society and our country.
Burning my vote was an anti-social act.
At some point you must admit, the US grossly misrepresents itself as badly as Trump does.
At some point you must admit, the US grossly misrepresents itself as badly as Trump does.
@Steve Bolger
Those who burned their vote got their punishment -- they got Trump.
And they get to read his tweets for the next 8 years, talk about extreme punishment.
Those who burned their vote got their punishment -- they got Trump.
And they get to read his tweets for the next 8 years, talk about extreme punishment.
Bhaskar: Indeed, some people may believe burning the American flag is an anti-social act, which is fine. Americans are free to think and believe as they wish. Nevertheless, burning the Flag is protected free speech under the 1st amendment, unless the intent is to incite violence. The Supreme Court ruled as such.
2
I sincerely hope that TV celebrity, pig and President-elect Donald Troll is making a strong impression on serious and dedicated professionals in all branches of federal, state and local government. DT's assault on grace, decency, our Constitution, and respect for all individuals is to be our unifying challenge, everyday until he passes from the scene. RESIST.
15
Trump should verify his wife's citizenship.
15
emma
WHY?
WHY?
As usual, DT seems to be appealing to his base with emotionally resonant issues which are nationalistic in origin. This keeps his core supporters happy while he cobbles together his cabinet which will promote policies (in health care and education, for example) which will be very destructive to the real interests of the middle and working classes in the long run. His real purpose is to distract media and voters from his phoney rich man's agenda.
14
If ignorance were money, Trump would indeed be a billionaire.
10
My right to burn the flag is just as sacred as my right to burn a Torah or a Koran. My right to laugh at Book of Mormon is just as sacred as a right to sing along with Jesus Christ Superstar or a hypothetical musical about Mohammed.
People, these are things.
People, these are things.
9
The United States Flag code dictates that burning is only the preferred method of disposal.
5
Arbitrary deprivation of nationality is also a crime under customary international law, as is rendering a person stateless -- both of which Mr. Trump's proposals would accomplish.
4
Perhaps tomorrow's headline should read, "President Elect Proposes Unconstitutional Imprisonment, Cruel & Unusual Punishment for US Citizens Exercising Their First Amemdment Rights ! "
Or would that be a distortion by the Liberal and Biased Media?
Or would that be a distortion by the Liberal and Biased Media?
4
Got a match?
12
I get it. You are planning to set his hair on fire.
1
So if you burn the Stars & Stripes you have your citizenship revoked. If you knowingly and willingly pass classified government information to your mistress who happens to be a journalist you are considered for Secretary of State. Interesting version of crime and punishment.
20
A decaying mind combined with little sense of the connection between words, meaning, and memory. The foreshortening of language in tweet land severely limits thought and certainly subtle thought (as George Orwell noted). Figure out for yourself how many tweets it would take to share even just the first of the Federalist Papers. If tweeting is how a decaying mind is going to discuss public policy issues, we are indeed living in dangerous times.
6
And, still, the NYTimes gives voice to Turmp's most incendiary comments, effectively promoting them.
Nothing was learned by the stunning loss of it's chosen candidate.
Nothing was learned by the stunning loss of it's chosen candidate.
2
The second amendment provides for the right to bear arms. Liberals constantly talk about repealing it. Courts may say flag burning is permitted by the first amendment. Trump may want to change that. Why such fanfare about Trumps challenges while liberals are applauded?
1
Dady: Neither the Liberals, nor the President can repeal or change an Amendment to the Constitution. A proposal to amend the Constitution can only be made via Congress or by Constitutional Convention. The POTUS has no role in this process. It’s not just any court that has said the 1st amendment allows flag burning. The Supreme Court, (whose decisions are the supreme law of the land), have ruled flag burning is protected freedom of speech under the 1st amendment—unless it’s done with the intent to incite violence. (constitution.findlaw.com; usconstitution.net)
2
Donald Trump, is trying to drag our flag through the same cesspool as the swastika.
He actually wants to use our flag to incarcerate and punish.
Why would he hurt our flag like that?
During dire events in our history, burning our own flag is a cry for attention to a grievous wrong.
The cloth is separate from what it stands for. A hundred flags could burn and it won't harm what it stands for. Look around, there is Old Glory, still flying high, proclaiming to the world "Freedom and Hope".
What harms our flag is to degrade what it stands for, thus damaging "Every" American Flag in the nation and around the world.
Trump harms what our flag stands for. In so doing he harms every American flag. Even the one you own.
"Old Glory" is now not able to shine so bright as the beacon of freedom it used to be.
Burning our own flag is our right of free speech, You could not do that in Hitler's Germany.
To a Nazi, all is symbolism, a swastika with no substance except brutality and punishments. All their pageantry and endless flag waving (Which Trump seems to emulate) meant only oppression and repression.
Don't let the picture below become us.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/enter.htm
Does it remind you of the day after the election? Why did our votes not matter?
"Sink The Bismarck" and all that it stands for.
He actually wants to use our flag to incarcerate and punish.
Why would he hurt our flag like that?
During dire events in our history, burning our own flag is a cry for attention to a grievous wrong.
The cloth is separate from what it stands for. A hundred flags could burn and it won't harm what it stands for. Look around, there is Old Glory, still flying high, proclaiming to the world "Freedom and Hope".
What harms our flag is to degrade what it stands for, thus damaging "Every" American Flag in the nation and around the world.
Trump harms what our flag stands for. In so doing he harms every American flag. Even the one you own.
"Old Glory" is now not able to shine so bright as the beacon of freedom it used to be.
Burning our own flag is our right of free speech, You could not do that in Hitler's Germany.
To a Nazi, all is symbolism, a swastika with no substance except brutality and punishments. All their pageantry and endless flag waving (Which Trump seems to emulate) meant only oppression and repression.
Don't let the picture below become us.
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/timeline/enter.htm
Does it remind you of the day after the election? Why did our votes not matter?
"Sink The Bismarck" and all that it stands for.
US to Trump: no, they can't lose their rights for burning the flag or any other form of individual expression. We can, however, throw you in jail for attempting to take away our first amendment rights. Indeed, perhaps you should lose your citizenship for so flagrantly ignoring our constitution in your terrible attempts at governing. I think most of the nation would agree: a year in jail without Twitter might do the Donald some good.
5
Here's a tidbit, if an article doesn't have a comment section then it is propaganda. I want to comment on the article about sick democracies, that's more interesting and apropos. As pertains to that article, I would say that people are frustrated with globalism, not democracy. Globalism has failed the world because countries too often run after profit for business rather than the interests of their people, profits which in a global world are not linked to jobs and success for individual citizens on a mass scale. Also, I am from the 80s decade of birth.
As Trump is concerned, he is a strong voice against globalism, but it is democracy that has enriched him. Strange to think he would hate the thing that has made his life so successful. I never understood burning the flag, and it is a 'hot topic', but I hope Trump doesn't try to strip people of their free speech rights. I hope this is more puffery. Trump sure has a lot of sentiments that don't make sense in America.
I would appreciate more articles about failings of the Democrat party. Their centralism has taken us from love of country and Democracy, to a different place. After all, it is the 1%, the major economic output counties, that voted for Clinton. It seems to me that Democrats are a luxury party where everyone is well fed and affords a mortgage, and Republicans are now the party of the slob in all calibers. This is what a broken economic, social, and political escalator does, it is now a cliff between classes.
As Trump is concerned, he is a strong voice against globalism, but it is democracy that has enriched him. Strange to think he would hate the thing that has made his life so successful. I never understood burning the flag, and it is a 'hot topic', but I hope Trump doesn't try to strip people of their free speech rights. I hope this is more puffery. Trump sure has a lot of sentiments that don't make sense in America.
I would appreciate more articles about failings of the Democrat party. Their centralism has taken us from love of country and Democracy, to a different place. After all, it is the 1%, the major economic output counties, that voted for Clinton. It seems to me that Democrats are a luxury party where everyone is well fed and affords a mortgage, and Republicans are now the party of the slob in all calibers. This is what a broken economic, social, and political escalator does, it is now a cliff between classes.
1
Simply not true. The poorer people are, the more likely they were to vote for Clinton. I suggest fact-checking in the future.
2
The top economic producing counties are the ones that voted for Clinton, meanwhile poor rural counties came in for Trump. I'm sorry the truth is so hard.
That's why they were waiting so long for Milwaukee eg on election night, because of Hillary voters. Whereas rural counties produce less GDP, but those were practically shoe-ins for Trump, and saw some of their highest turnout ever. I got this from the Denver Post.
That's why they were waiting so long for Milwaukee eg on election night, because of Hillary voters. Whereas rural counties produce less GDP, but those were practically shoe-ins for Trump, and saw some of their highest turnout ever. I got this from the Denver Post.
1
What, you expect Donald Trump to grasp the concept of free speech if it's not his freedom and his speech? You think he understands symbolic expression? That's too many syllables.
4
I see people wearing .... WEARING our beautiful flag of the United States on their bottoms in the form of bikinis and bathing suits! Wearing our flag on ratty neck wear and tee shirts. Certainly if Trump can handle the flag burners amongst us he can legislate good taste too. Our flag should not be worn on our persons.
To fly from a pole, a house or a nice boat should be the limit. And forbid American Flag bumper stickers too. Completely tasteless.
To fly from a pole, a house or a nice boat should be the limit. And forbid American Flag bumper stickers too. Completely tasteless.
3
The only law that should apply to setting a flag alight is the local fire code.
6
Congratulations, America, 25% of you have elected an adolescent with no understanding of the Constitution. Funny how folks only care about the Constitution when the 2nd Amendment is involved...
6
Trump doesn't care if Americans burn flags. Put people in jail = make jailers richer. I'm SURE he's got some ties to that lurid industry...
5
The pirates are getting ready to plunder, pillage, rape and rob.
Google "proper way to dispose of the American flag"
When an American flag becomes worn, faded, torn or soiled, it should be retired and replaced with a new flag. There are several ways to respectfully dispose of the American flag without showing disgrace. The most common method is burning the torn or tattered flag in a special ceremony."
Google "proper way to dispose of the American flag"
When an American flag becomes worn, faded, torn or soiled, it should be retired and replaced with a new flag. There are several ways to respectfully dispose of the American flag without showing disgrace. The most common method is burning the torn or tattered flag in a special ceremony."
3
Perhaps someone with more social media savvy (and patience) than me could start a campaign to declare January 20th 2017 Flag-burning Day.
5
What's next- putting people in jail for disagreeing with the president? Trump obviously admires the Putin approach to democracy - all for me and none for you!
6
Everyone took the bait again. Trump now realizes he can make outrageous statements that will send the media and opponents into an absolute frenzy, spending time, effort, enery and emotion to respond to and rebut him. This article, by way of example, is a well researched scholarly work. Its only problem is that it takes Trump seriously and responds at all. The same thing happened when he alleged that millions voted illegally. The reactions were intense and indignant.. The paper actually wrote an editorial about it.
Meanwhile, Mr. Trump laughs because we took the bait.
The best way to respond to ridiculous statements such as this is not to respond at all. Report it as you must, then let it go. Move on. You can be assured that Mr. Trump has moved on and has no intention whatsoever of following through. He just wanted to make you squirm. And it worked.
Responding to statements such as this gives them a validation which they don't deserve.
Meanwhile, Mr. Trump laughs because we took the bait.
The best way to respond to ridiculous statements such as this is not to respond at all. Report it as you must, then let it go. Move on. You can be assured that Mr. Trump has moved on and has no intention whatsoever of following through. He just wanted to make you squirm. And it worked.
Responding to statements such as this gives them a validation which they don't deserve.
9
Ha, ha, ha! He thinks he's Idi Amin, doesn't he? But this isn't Uganda.
6
Maybe we should pay more attention to the fact that Mr. Trump still hasn't released his taxes, and clearly plans to never do so. This guy and his whole family of self dealing self promoting Grifters are one gigantic ball of snakes.
20
He's talking about revoking citizenship. Pay attention.
12
God.. We got dealing with guy for 4 years and possibly more!
5
Donald knows best. You voted him in. Get used to it!
The view from Canada. Geez, Trump sure is great in pushing the left wing to lose their collective minds with his proposed actions on things that he knows he can't do. This reality TV show of President Trump for the next 4 years should get top ratings. Trump's playing you guys and you keep falling for it. LOL!
2
How about burning down Trump tower? Even if convicted of that one would keep their citizenship!
Good week for Trump. First is the baseless claim of massive voter fraud, then he shreds the constitution twice - on speech and then on forced ex-patriation. Can't wait for next week's insanity. I wonder where he got this idea for the flag burners - maybe from Fabio or Don King, his Thanksgiving guests in Florida.
ALSO: the only way to deal with the inane tweets and daily incendiary comments is to stop doing serious articles about any of them. Getting attention for these comment must come with a sting of humiliation and mockery for a disincentive.
How about the Times just has a running tally of "Lies" "Illegal Suggestions" "Idiocies" "Whining" etc, with daily updates...?
Mockery is our best weapon against this narcissist
How about the Times just has a running tally of "Lies" "Illegal Suggestions" "Idiocies" "Whining" etc, with daily updates...?
Mockery is our best weapon against this narcissist
1
How do you define a US Flag that could not be burned? Suppose a flag has a corner removed, so it only has 49 stars. Is it still an official flag, protected from burning?
Why not require that all US flags be made fire proof.
Trump is nuts of this, as he is on most every issue?
----------------------------------------------------------------
Why not require that all US flags be made fire proof.
Trump is nuts of this, as he is on most every issue?
----------------------------------------------------------------
1
Are the flags made in America or China, like his hats?
3
Solution:
A simple City, County, or State Law that imposes a minimum $10,000 fine (plus mandatory 1 yr in jail) for setting, or abetting to set, a non-enclosed unsafe fire on public property.
A simple City, County, or State Law that imposes a minimum $10,000 fine (plus mandatory 1 yr in jail) for setting, or abetting to set, a non-enclosed unsafe fire on public property.
Some municipalities prohibit that on your own property....with fines up to $1500. Furthermore, the cover must be of expanded metal with openings not to exceed 1 cm squared. The bottom must be constructed so that ash cannot spill out.
Why does the media cover this kind of nonsense? Most of what Trump says is ridiculous, but reporters lap it up and insist it's somehow news. It is not news. It is not important. It is not even interesting. Have reporters lost the ability to tell when a story is news and when they're being jerked around? Haven't news organizations been used enough by Trump? His every tweet isn't worthy of reporting. Leave it on Twitter, where it belongs and where other nitwits can comment on it. Don't put it in the NY Times.
3
I agree with people who say this is nothing but a distraction. The President has NO ability to change established law about this.
I guess he can nominate Judges that know nothing about the Constitution - that might happen and we should protest if and when it does. Right now focus on the he nominations and appointments he has made - a woman to Education who hates public education, a man to Health who wants to remove insurance from 20 million insured under Obamacare and has Medicare and Medicaid in his cross-hairs.
Also we should continue to focus on his monetizing of the Presidency. He is setting up Banana Republic where he and his family milk us all for everything they can put their grubby (little) hands on. No right!
His tweeting is obnoxious - but he uses it to move the spotlight from the real issues! That's how he won the Presidency. Enough! Don't cover his tweets. If he wants to reach the American people, he should hold a Press Conference where his nonsense can be questioned.
I guess he can nominate Judges that know nothing about the Constitution - that might happen and we should protest if and when it does. Right now focus on the he nominations and appointments he has made - a woman to Education who hates public education, a man to Health who wants to remove insurance from 20 million insured under Obamacare and has Medicare and Medicaid in his cross-hairs.
Also we should continue to focus on his monetizing of the Presidency. He is setting up Banana Republic where he and his family milk us all for everything they can put their grubby (little) hands on. No right!
His tweeting is obnoxious - but he uses it to move the spotlight from the real issues! That's how he won the Presidency. Enough! Don't cover his tweets. If he wants to reach the American people, he should hold a Press Conference where his nonsense can be questioned.
2
If anyone's looking for a good reason to burn the flag, I am sure Donald Trump will provide many.
3
More bogus "controversy." He must have another court date coming up.
5
Really1? Seriously Mr. Trump you gotta be kidding me!? Why don't you come out to the Mid West and make America Great Again!? Right now Man! Human Beings are waiting Right now for your job Plan instead of crying about the Good 'Ol RED WHITE and BLUE.....It seems to me while Human Beings around the good "Ol USA are finghting for Survival Trump is forgetting he works for us! So right now start Planning Trump. I'd learn from Obama's biggest mistakes if I were you. JOBS!!! JOBS and more JOBS!!! SHOW US THE MONEY!!!
1
The best thing that President Obama could do to safeguard American freedom from Trump's insane progress into the Middle Ages would be to burn an American flag and a copy of The Art of the Deal on the Whitehouse lawn on Inauguration Day.
1
The BLUR between GAME SHOW and REALITY continues...
2
A comparable lack of patriotism regularly displayed by Trump's supporters is the conspicuous display of the Confederate flag at rallies, an act which is also protected by the free speech clause in the Bill of Rights. So if flag burners are to be prosecuted and denied citizenship, then it is only just and fair that anyone displaying the Stars and Bars should suffer the same fate. The Confederacy, after all, was the largest violent collective display of treason in the history of the United States, as well as responsible for the ethical scandal that was slavery.
7
The. Confederate Flag represents who we are more than the Stars and Stripes cloth.
1
Yes, Allen K. I'd say so, but we have a right to free speech supported by the courts. I say bring it. I'm too old to get on the battle lines and be gassed by these pigs, having a TNR surgery last year. The question is how is the ordinary citizen who has been too busy working to get family life together going to react once they realize that the Donald is a fraud?
If this is not simply yet another Trump distraction, then perhaps Trump's aim is to float the idea of a second diminished level of citizenship in the US. Since there are people who would be difficult to deport (because they have no ties--- birth or otherwise--- to any foreign nations), let's take away their rights (as we currently do with many convicts), or so goes the new second-class citizenship.
Those convicted of flag burning and other citizenship-jeopardizing crimes would lose the right to vote, run for office, hold any federal government office, serve in the military, etc. Maybe they would also be subject to extra taxes or fees required to obtain business licenses (e.g., hack license, export licenses, etc.)
The ultimate objective would be to permanently marginalize people for political reasons. In short, the government would have the power to disenfranchise, improverish, and/or threaten its opponents with incarceration.
Those convicted of flag burning and other citizenship-jeopardizing crimes would lose the right to vote, run for office, hold any federal government office, serve in the military, etc. Maybe they would also be subject to extra taxes or fees required to obtain business licenses (e.g., hack license, export licenses, etc.)
The ultimate objective would be to permanently marginalize people for political reasons. In short, the government would have the power to disenfranchise, improverish, and/or threaten its opponents with incarceration.
2
It should be a nonpartisan issue that the man likely to receive a majority of votes in the electoral college is totally unfit to be President and should not be elected by the electors. He lacks a basic understanding of American government, history, and philosophy. He wants to bring massive conflicts of interest with him and almost certainly will enrich himself and his family through actions he takes as President. He wants to criminalize free speech, return to torture and approaches beyond waterboarding that he says will be far worse. The electoral college should do its job--protect the country from a man who is at once a tyrant, a buffoon, and an enormous threat to what this country stands for. To protect America is why we have the electoral college. Finally, after more than 200 years, an occasion has arisen where it should do the job for which it was designed--to save the country from a despot who would like be a dictator and to rule by fiat and tweet.
3
If I lose my citizenship, can I then move to Canada?
4
Trump is old enough to remember the protests that accompanied the Vietnam war. Some burned the flag and some, including the President Elect, hid behind a bogus medical deferment. Both found ways to cope with an unjust war. However, when compared, it seems to me that burning the flag was probably the honest statement.
12
Shouldn't Trump have to at least read the US Constitution before Inauguration Day?
9
There's a way to act against this election and that is by voting with your wallet. There's a free app to boycott trump and all his supporters' businesses and I suggest anyone out there who would like to make a more effective statement against all this ugliness stop supporting these businesses and the people that own them. That and burning trump in effigy, which is probably not illegal yet and, a bit more specific than the flag. Also, trump pinatas may be bigly in the near future.
6
Let me guess, draft dodgers and tax cheats get to keep their citizenship right?
Look how that worked out...
Look how that worked out...
17
Trump wants to revoke the citizenship
of anyone in the country who burns the
Yankee Jack. Seems to me that during
the controversy over the Confederate
flag, Yankees was saying that the
only Southern flag that mattered was
the white flag of surrender. As an
independent country, the South ceased
to exist when Lee's troops surrendered
to Grant. By that logic, since Yankee
soldiers and sailors all over the
Pacific, from the Philippines to
Guadalcanal, surrendered to the
Japanese, first, that made the YSA,
aka the U.S., a territory of Japan.
So, actually, when the Japanese
surrendered on the Missouri, it was,
truthfully, the Eastern territory of
Japan surrendering to the Western
territory of Japan. That still makes
all of us the loyal citizens of Japan.
Ergo, the only flag that matters in
the YSA, is the Rising Sun.
of anyone in the country who burns the
Yankee Jack. Seems to me that during
the controversy over the Confederate
flag, Yankees was saying that the
only Southern flag that mattered was
the white flag of surrender. As an
independent country, the South ceased
to exist when Lee's troops surrendered
to Grant. By that logic, since Yankee
soldiers and sailors all over the
Pacific, from the Philippines to
Guadalcanal, surrendered to the
Japanese, first, that made the YSA,
aka the U.S., a territory of Japan.
So, actually, when the Japanese
surrendered on the Missouri, it was,
truthfully, the Eastern territory of
Japan surrendering to the Western
territory of Japan. That still makes
all of us the loyal citizens of Japan.
Ergo, the only flag that matters in
the YSA, is the Rising Sun.
Whoopee! And when we wrote the Constitution of Japan, we made women utterly equal! Something we STILL have yet to do here! I had no idea I'd been Constitutionally equal all my many years! Thanks, 7!
1
Remember that Clinton voted for the 2005 Flag Protection Act.
3
Question for the Senate to ask Mr. Trump's nominee for attorney general in confirmation hearings: "Do you believe such a statute would violate the First Amendment, and would you support prosecution of individuals under such a statute if enacted into law?" The right to dissent is the most central of American values, and the US Senate needs to protect that right if Mr. Trump will not preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
8
He only wishes to protect the right to burn crosses and wave Confederate Flags.
4
Burning a piece of cloth in protest, however symbolic it may be, does not destroy this country's Constitution, it's principles or harm its people. If some find that form of speech distasteful...well, spitting on the Lincoln Memorial would be distasteful too but we are grown ups. We're not going to strip citizenship for that. Let's save legal action for true harm, like murdering gays for being gay and other hate crimes which do not seem to concern the president-elect.
4
Meanwhile... he seems to have deleted it. Maybe he ran into a 7th-grader who schooled him about the Constitution.
4
Winning has consequences. The Democratic Party is in shambles. The only good thing coming out of all this is that we finally rid of the Bushes and Clintons. That is the only silver lining I see.
2
Beware Chelsea.
You're getting tedious, @NYT. Stop applying conventional journalism rules when covering this silly man. Make new ones. And do it fast. Ignoring the nonsense that emerges hourly from his Twitter feed would be a good start. Stop pretending that the rants merit reasoned examination. They don't. They're outlandish. And they're boring.
7
And they will be part of the history when the Republicans impeach him to get rid of him so they can have President Pence. I say, print them all so the children of tomorrow understand why their planet was murdered in this time.
3
Maybe the flag issue could be Trump's Supreme Court nominee litmus test or better yet, an intelligence test.
3
I see that most the people here are offended. I was offended at first but realize there is NO reason to burn the flag unless you are already a terrorist. That's what Trump sees, also. I always disliked flag burners, anyways.
I would feel soooo guilty if i did that just because some part of this country did something wrong. The flag stands for not only freedom (or less enslavement if that's the way you want to look at it) but for all the people who was willing to fight for our right to complain.
I would hope that all flag burners get at least SOME form of punishment. Why, because that's an expression of treason, siding with the ismucks, which can also cause undue stress and fear to those nearby. I would expect people nearby to be in great for their lives at such an event. So, yes, Trump finally got it right on this one.
Too bad he wasn't this adiment about fixing the excess CO2 and land management problems!
I would feel soooo guilty if i did that just because some part of this country did something wrong. The flag stands for not only freedom (or less enslavement if that's the way you want to look at it) but for all the people who was willing to fight for our right to complain.
I would hope that all flag burners get at least SOME form of punishment. Why, because that's an expression of treason, siding with the ismucks, which can also cause undue stress and fear to those nearby. I would expect people nearby to be in great for their lives at such an event. So, yes, Trump finally got it right on this one.
Too bad he wasn't this adiment about fixing the excess CO2 and land management problems!
First of all, it's too bad you can't spell. Secondly, I'm going to be burning my flag just to prove that there's nothing you can do to stop me. And if you come on my property, I'll shoot you for trespassing.
3
How do you reconcile that you are supposed to burn the flag if it's damaged? What if it has 51 stars? Is it real? This is why even Scalia understood that you can't man burning flags. Even offensive speech must be protected.
2
You need to look up the meaning of treason.
3
According to Lord Acton, power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. However, given President Elect, Donald Trumps demeanor and his rise to be the next Commander- in -Chief of the United States, I would say men without morals corrupt power absolutely. According to Bob Marley, the greatness of any man his not how much wealth or power he obtains but, how much he positively affects the lives of the people he meets or governs. MR TRUMP CANNOT AFFORD TO BE AGAINST AMERICAN EXCEPTIONALISM.
3
meaning, among other things, their right to vote in future elections — as punishment.
After this last tumultuous election, that may prove to be a reward.
After this last tumultuous election, that may prove to be a reward.
3
A minority of citizens have elected a US version of the Philippine President Duarte.
16
We must stop chasing Trump down these rabbit holes. He is fifty miles further down the road while we are standing still analyzing and responding to every morsel of absurdity that he discards. I am exhausted already and he is not even President yet. We have to find a better way to navigate this new Trump world or else he is going to wear the country out to the point that he will be left unchecked to do real and permanent damage. I don't have an answer. I don't know how we, the public, or the media are going to be able to discern which of his petulant droppings are worrisome and which are intended to simply rile and distract. Liberals, myself included, have to stop reveling in his monstrosity. While being outraged and having facts and reason on our sides may make us feel better but it is no longer a sufficient defense or adequate means for conveying our ideals.
10
Oh good. I regret not burning any flags to protest the Vietnam War. It looks like I may get another opportunity. Thanks "con-man in chief".
12
I've been flying my flag upside-down since Nov 9. I urge all patriotic progressives, liberals, anarchists, and center-lefties to take a stand and show how you feel. Display your flag upside-down or at half-staff.
Are they burning "American" flags? To my knowledge, most are made in China.
8
Ignorance and arrogance makes a dangerous combination.
13
Four years of this and he is not even inaugurated yet.
Yes almost everything Trump says or does seems crazy one way or the other. He is simply ignorant and full of hubris. It will be a bull in a china shop for 4 years.
But what makes it worse are the jackboot thugs who are all willing to support these crazy statements and ideas. Those of us who see Trump as a threat to everything the constitution stands for are howling in the wind. As long as people buy into his politically incorrect sermons there is no stopping him. Congress is kowtowing already afraid to upset the base. When the senate goes in 2018 then the really scary stuff begins.
Yes almost everything Trump says or does seems crazy one way or the other. He is simply ignorant and full of hubris. It will be a bull in a china shop for 4 years.
But what makes it worse are the jackboot thugs who are all willing to support these crazy statements and ideas. Those of us who see Trump as a threat to everything the constitution stands for are howling in the wind. As long as people buy into his politically incorrect sermons there is no stopping him. Congress is kowtowing already afraid to upset the base. When the senate goes in 2018 then the really scary stuff begins.
9
We don't know yet if he will take office. Chill! We won't know until Dec 19.
That's right, worship the flag while trashing everything it stands for.
27
Yes jamie - the First Amendment.
Scary. What's next...burning the bible will get you burned at the stake?
9
Maybe. But burning crosses is A-OK with him... as long as you don't burn them on HIS lawn!
2
You have to realize that Trump tweets whatever comes into his head, without thinking. Sort of like a teenager texting, but worse.
7
Texting while driving 95 mph on I-84 in the mountains. May he end up in the valley. No tears will be shed.
yea because now he can run the whole country into a ditch not just himself when behind this country's steeringwheel.
Is someone burning flags? Help me out here...
5
No.
This is another canard.
This is another canard.
3
No, but I bet some will be inspired now.
1
If flag burning is made illegal what is next? Flag burning is an expression of our self identity as free individuals. If the expression of self identity is made illegal then other aspects of our self identity will be lost too. Trump could control fashion, gender, food, hairstyle, it is a sliding scale. This is the first step towards Timocracy
5
Literally everything is on the table. White christian nationalists are salivating. Republicans are giddy.
3
I can only guess whose hairstyle he would proscribe.
We need to learn not to take so much of what Trump says literally. He tries to make a point by exaggerating many issues. He is our president for four years so get used to it.
12
Ahhh emotional exaggeration...such a nice quality to have in a US President.
6
No Aaron, a president playing headgames with the citizens is unworthy of the position.
4
Imagine how many people probably said that about Hitler...
6
This is unimportant.
Trump just picked a Goldman Sachs guy to be his Treasury Secretary. Trump said he would go after the bankers, would drain the swamp. This is what's important. He is the ultimate con man, doing a sleight of hand.
Focus.
Resist.
Trump just picked a Goldman Sachs guy to be his Treasury Secretary. Trump said he would go after the bankers, would drain the swamp. This is what's important. He is the ultimate con man, doing a sleight of hand.
Focus.
Resist.
32
I am resisting! But what do we do next?
1
Except it is NOT a distraction. He is clearly telling us that our rights are on the chopping block. This is highly important. Sec of Treasury will amount to a hill of beans soon.
4
You know, I'd be more inclined to believe in his love of country if when his country called him he answered the call, rather than run off to get a doctor to write him an excuse for an injury that hasn't plagued him since his draft status was changed.
By the way, I'm a disabled veteran from the Iraq war and my total service time was 24.8 years. I didn't have to join the service, I had other options available to me. I chose to because all the men in my family served in the past.
I don't agree with the flag burners, I don't agree with the book burners, I didn't agree when the Nazi's wanted to parade through Skokie, Illinois. I don't agree with a lot of people, but I understand that this is the burden of free speech, defending the speech you personally think is repulsive and vile as vigorously as you defend the speech that you agree with.
The idea that we should lock up, or worse strip a citizen of their birthright for expressing a right is horrific in my view. It's akin to what Stalin, Amin, Tito, Peron, Mao, Pol-Phet and Saddam would have done. This isn't the country I or my relatives fought for anymore.
By the way, I'm a disabled veteran from the Iraq war and my total service time was 24.8 years. I didn't have to join the service, I had other options available to me. I chose to because all the men in my family served in the past.
I don't agree with the flag burners, I don't agree with the book burners, I didn't agree when the Nazi's wanted to parade through Skokie, Illinois. I don't agree with a lot of people, but I understand that this is the burden of free speech, defending the speech you personally think is repulsive and vile as vigorously as you defend the speech that you agree with.
The idea that we should lock up, or worse strip a citizen of their birthright for expressing a right is horrific in my view. It's akin to what Stalin, Amin, Tito, Peron, Mao, Pol-Phet and Saddam would have done. This isn't the country I or my relatives fought for anymore.
16
Thank you for your service sir, and thank you for your powerful words.
2
More proof the guy has no clue. God help us.
11
Trump needs a mother who will take away his toys, re: Twitter. The guy just continues to prove his inadequacy every single day. I'd laugh but for the very real danger he represents once he takes office. Right now he's toying with the masses but what's clearly implied - even sitting on the table for all to see - are his plans to rule, not govern. We need to be stopping him now, not later. Trump voters - are you ready to admit you were duped?
7
I think the NYT is being intellectually dishonest citing Texas v. Johnson as anything more than an impediment.
I always refer to the Death Penalty and the Eighth Amendment in the 1970s as an example of the Supreme court switching its rulings in a matter of years. We should not be surprised that Trump crafts a court, with the Senate, that overturns several key areas of law. McConnell making statements contradicting Trump on flag burning are, at present, more reassuring.
That said, may I make a suggestion?
When in was at NYU Law in the 90s, I took Con Law with Chris Eisgruber, who asked a question about Texas v. Johnson on the exam. In much longer prose I suggested that Congress can always declare the flag to be the public property held in trust by the US Government, which can license commercial uses of the flag.
That way, enforcement becomes a matter of intellectual property law. Civil law, rather than criminal law.
Worth revisiting.
I always refer to the Death Penalty and the Eighth Amendment in the 1970s as an example of the Supreme court switching its rulings in a matter of years. We should not be surprised that Trump crafts a court, with the Senate, that overturns several key areas of law. McConnell making statements contradicting Trump on flag burning are, at present, more reassuring.
That said, may I make a suggestion?
When in was at NYU Law in the 90s, I took Con Law with Chris Eisgruber, who asked a question about Texas v. Johnson on the exam. In much longer prose I suggested that Congress can always declare the flag to be the public property held in trust by the US Government, which can license commercial uses of the flag.
That way, enforcement becomes a matter of intellectual property law. Civil law, rather than criminal law.
Worth revisiting.
Antonin Scalia said flag burning was distasteful but lawful under the Constitution.
Where's Trump coming from? To the right of Scalia, or from a place in eastern or western Europe in the last century where they said nyet or verboten to free speech?
Where's Trump coming from? To the right of Scalia, or from a place in eastern or western Europe in the last century where they said nyet or verboten to free speech?
10
I'm really looking forward to seeing if Trump attempts to implement any of his outrageous proposals. I'm curious to see who he carries himself as president and if governing and daily tracking of his approval rating will change his tone.
5
Curiosity killed the cat.
3
How is it that the very same people that hold the Second Amendment sacrosanct can so easily lay waste to the First Amendment?
20
Realizing that proposals like a border wall, torture, and treaty-breaking bring shame on America, Donald Trump wants to suppress visible reminders thereof.
3
The law concerning flag burning was decided by the Supreme Court in 1989, Texas v Johnson. As a result of that ruling, state laws banning burning the American flag were overturned. Trump appears to have a Supreme Court appointment to make (unless the Senate Democrats use the filibuster the same way the Senate Republicans did); it doesn't mean the decision would be overturned. Because this is considered a settled constitutional matter, for a flag burning case to come to the SC and be overturned would probably take years with no guarantee the current ruling would be overturned.
Once again, we are reading and commenting on non-issues. This is the equivalent of Trump yelling "squirrel" to distract us from the real horror of his pending presidency.
Once again, we are reading and commenting on non-issues. This is the equivalent of Trump yelling "squirrel" to distract us from the real horror of his pending presidency.
6
Where's he going to put all the flag-burning former citizens? What would he do if every man, woman, and child burned the flag in protest against his presidency?
If that happened, then all the non-US citizens could form a new country, and kick trump out. Anyone got some matches?
If that happened, then all the non-US citizens could form a new country, and kick trump out. Anyone got some matches?
8
This is a distraction from real issues. The media needs to stop taking the bait every time Trump tweets something outrageous and irrelevant. Send your reporters out to cover Trump's disgusting cabinet picks or egregious conflicts of interest. No one cares about flag burning.
17
I hope the ELECTORAL College is paying attention to this manipulative, evil man. We still have an opportunity to say no to jim and his arguing us antics. He is a really bad dude.
9
I agree. Donald Trump is the reason we have the electoral college. It's the last line of defense when the public votes for a completely unsuitable, dangerous and possibly mentally unstable person to lead the nation.
I hope the electors have "what it takes" to fall on their swords and commit political suicide in order to save the nation.
I won't be at all surprised if Clinton ends up being the president when the electoral college votes. In a way that would be the best possible outcome - she wins the popular vote but is humbled by the realization that so many Americans feel the Democratic Party has failed us that trump nearly took the White House.
I hope the electors have "what it takes" to fall on their swords and commit political suicide in order to save the nation.
I won't be at all surprised if Clinton ends up being the president when the electoral college votes. In a way that would be the best possible outcome - she wins the popular vote but is humbled by the realization that so many Americans feel the Democratic Party has failed us that trump nearly took the White House.
2
Perhaps he would also like to reinstate the Alien and Sedition Act....
4
I was an immigrant. I am, now, a citizen -- and have been for over 40 years.
Burning the flag is unacceptable. One can be opposed to a current administration, and protest against it -- but burning the flag announces opposition to all that is America.
In words oft misused in the past: "America: Love it or leave it."
Burning the flag is unacceptable. One can be opposed to a current administration, and protest against it -- but burning the flag announces opposition to all that is America.
In words oft misused in the past: "America: Love it or leave it."
5
Thank you! After reading all the liberal posts that Mr. Trump is evil to suggest such a thing when there has always been loyal Americans who feel that destroying the American flag is not only disloyalty but comes nearer to treason. But if we suggest such a thing we are the idiots? No, we have respect for our flag that was still flying in the dawns early light, and should evermore wave over the land of the free and those brave ones who lost their lives defending it.
1
And pretty soon he'll try to criminalize disagreeing with him...
9
This tweet, among many others, is just his own version of flag burning. Isn't it ironic that the things he assails tend to be the things that make America great?
8
Every day we witness America sliding closer and close to becoming a Banana Republic. With Papa Trump and his Baby Trumps pronouncing our fates and enriching their coffers. Did Trump voters and FBI Director James Comey grasp they were leaving us all so little recourse? These are such dark days.
10
He has no impulse control, and that is frightening.
Somebody needs to take his phone away from him ... and to have to say that about the President-elect of the United States is terrifying.
Somebody needs to take his phone away from him ... and to have to say that about the President-elect of the United States is terrifying.
16
NYT...How about every two weeks you publish a list of all of Trump's Tweets for that two weeks? Have an index of one word responses or icons to respond to each tweet (positive and negative...you could have funwith this!) Also tally up a r alistic estimate of how much time he spent tweeting during that two weeks. And graph the times of day he tweets. It would be very informative to see how he is spending his time Making America Great Again. Forget the indepth stories on individual tweets. Let's see the big picture.
10
Fascism-- a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition.
Merriam-Webster online
Some people are tossing the word around these days, I'm interested in seeing how Donald Trump's not yet presidency might be described.
The questions about race are troubling.
Sometimes it seems that Trump is confused about the extent of his power. He will press the limits in any situation. So far his 3 a.m. tweets are not only factually challenged, but they assume presidential powers that aren't there.
In other words, he makes things up and is ignorant about government and our history.
Forcible suppression of opposition. Trump's made it known he wants to loosen up the libel laws (whatever that means) so he can sue journalists. At his rallies he bullied them as he did his 16 GOP opponents. A free and independent media is not something he values. The president with all that immense power feeling bullying is a valid tactic, he thinks it's ok to intimidate and suppress the press.
So here we are. Donald needs to be reminded at every opportunity about his limits. It's clear if you show any weakness, he will grab what he can get,
Merriam-Webster online
Some people are tossing the word around these days, I'm interested in seeing how Donald Trump's not yet presidency might be described.
The questions about race are troubling.
Sometimes it seems that Trump is confused about the extent of his power. He will press the limits in any situation. So far his 3 a.m. tweets are not only factually challenged, but they assume presidential powers that aren't there.
In other words, he makes things up and is ignorant about government and our history.
Forcible suppression of opposition. Trump's made it known he wants to loosen up the libel laws (whatever that means) so he can sue journalists. At his rallies he bullied them as he did his 16 GOP opponents. A free and independent media is not something he values. The president with all that immense power feeling bullying is a valid tactic, he thinks it's ok to intimidate and suppress the press.
So here we are. Donald needs to be reminded at every opportunity about his limits. It's clear if you show any weakness, he will grab what he can get,
7
Trump, the wanna be King over his subjects with Congress being his minions. Can someone, please take away his blackberry so he can't send out anymore tweets. We thought the election was unbearable, these next four years will be an uncontrollable roller coaster.
6
Who would able to take it away?
2
Why not add those who fly the stars and bars of the confederacy. They're traitors to the United States of America.
14
Great point!
Flying the confederare flag, underwhich tens of thousands of United States soldiers were killed, is a faaaaar more provacative act but I guarantee there is a confederate flag lapel pin somewhere in Steve Bannon's desk.
Flying the confederare flag, underwhich tens of thousands of United States soldiers were killed, is a faaaaar more provacative act but I guarantee there is a confederate flag lapel pin somewhere in Steve Bannon's desk.
3
Trump needs to start learning what he can and cannot do. He does not make Federal law, that's Congress. He does not judge Federal laws, that's the Supreme Court.
14
Khizr Khan to Donald Trump: "Have you even read the US Constitution?" Apparently, the answer is "No."
19
The constitution is not a forever thing. It's days are clearly numbered. Enjoy it while you can.
2
It seems incomprehensible that this sort of tweeting isn't primarily meant as a distraction from the more legitimate (real) concerns that are emerging during the DJT transition drama, and/or a bone thrown to his "base". It's looking like this media technique will remain a presidential MO. The mainstream media like the NYT has a tough task to figure out how to express justifiable outrage yet not short-change other important yet less sensational news.
What's missing from this story are reactions from the GOP pols--how do they view this kind of willfully erroneous (at best) commentary from their incoming president?
What's missing from this story are reactions from the GOP pols--how do they view this kind of willfully erroneous (at best) commentary from their incoming president?
14
Where does this idiocy stop.
Suppose I refuse to stand and refuse to recite the Pledge of Allegiance am I disrespecting the flag.
Why does Trump believe he has to continue pandering to his base.
Suppose I refuse to stand and refuse to recite the Pledge of Allegiance am I disrespecting the flag.
Why does Trump believe he has to continue pandering to his base.
6
Because eventually this all leads to white nationalism, that's why. And that's the only thing those folks really want. Retribution for Lincoln and even more so for Obama. Go ask them.
3
Cohen v. US, a Supreme Court case that is still valid and without contrary precedent, it squarely at odds with this President's understanding of the First Amendment and the Bill of Rights. In that case, the court upheld the right to wear a jacket that said "F*ck the Draft" in the halls of public courthouse.
After this display of ignorance of our constitution, it's time to make, sell, market and promote hats that say "F*ck the President." Then Dump might finally understand the US is still a democracy, not a monarchy whereby he's been anointed chief king Dump.
After this display of ignorance of our constitution, it's time to make, sell, market and promote hats that say "F*ck the President." Then Dump might finally understand the US is still a democracy, not a monarchy whereby he's been anointed chief king Dump.
11
First amendment, Bill of Rights. Ha. Only as good as the paper they are written on. Soon to be outmoded.
2
Oddly, the U.S. Flag Code states that the proper way to dispose of an old flag is to burn it.
18
What Mr Trump and others who agree with him do not understand is that the our flag is stronger because we have the right t burn it in protest. He weakens our country and day by day walks down a very dark path
23
They understand, they just don't care. They don't have to anymore.
3
The problem with this and many articles found in the New York Times and elsewhere is that they are written from a point of view that accepts of the premise that Donald Trump is a man of reasonable intellect, has the ability to think critically, and enjoys reasonably good mental health. I'm not a mental health expert but it is obvious to the untrained observer that this man has some serious issues.
Rather than trying to make sense of his idiotic rambling can't someone get this man the help he needs. He cannot function as President of the United States. Certainly there are constitutional provisions that allow for the replacement of one who cannot fulfill the duties of the office.
Rather than trying to make sense of his idiotic rambling can't someone get this man the help he needs. He cannot function as President of the United States. Certainly there are constitutional provisions that allow for the replacement of one who cannot fulfill the duties of the office.
10
Republicans don't care who is in office as long as they are in power. They can have a dunce or a fool it does not matter.
1
What criteria does the NYT and the WP use to determine what tweet is news worthy? This is frankly getting us nowhere. These tweets are all a further demeaning of the office of the president. A tweet about flag burning is not the same as an actual proposal to punish those who burn the flag. There is a profound difference here that both papers seem to repeatedly miss. Since the words and tweets of this man are outrageously misguided I suggest we accept that fact and only address the real actios taken.
5
Here is a thought...why don't the 54 plus million who rejected Trump all burn a flag. How well do you think it would go over if Trump tried to jail or revoke citizenship of that many people? It wouldn't go at all. As many have pointed out, this is a smoke and mirrors game for him; he is distracting us from the real issues he has brought to the presidency.
4
While it is true that we can not strip someones citizenship from them or prosecute them for burning the flag, their ar other things that could worlk just as well. Most of who we see burning flags on TV fall into 2 groups that we could acctually do something about. 1) College Students - Remember those federal grants and loans that you have that make it so you can even go to school? Take them away. 2) Those who are intentionally trying to start an argument. You know it is a crime to incite a riot.
1
But here lies the insidious effect of electing Trump president: Johnson v. Texas was a 6-3 supreme court decision. And the case involving revocation of citizenship was 5-4. If he can appoint 3 Supreme Court justices . . .
4
We need to stop looking for the motivations for why Trump is saying the things he's saying. We need to realize that all of it –the rants, the tweets, the outrageous cabinet picks, the conflicts of interests– is in the same pot. And now, we must face the reality that, three weeks in, he has demonstrated no willingness to act even remotely dignified or Presidential. What a massive embarrassment to us all!
12