Crossed References

Nov 20, 2016 · 65 comments
jeddings (Silicon Valley)
Ugh. I had just this weekend finished a 15x15 puzzle because I'd never seen a crossing/crosser puzzle. I haven't finished all the clues yet, but it looked like this:

http://i.imgur.com/ienV36ql.png

I was happy that I could fit in 4 phrases and the theme, but of course now, it would have been a few years before it was published, if ever. I don't consider myself an expert puzzle maker by any means, but at least I thought I could submit it. Oh well.
Robert Michael Panoff (Durham, NC)
having slow day. What is ESP found in some dictionary definitions?
Chungclan (Cincinnati,OH)
Especially:

Definition of esp. abbreviation from the Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary
esp. abbreviation
(in writing) especially

From http://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/esp_2
Robert Michael Panoff (Durham, NC)
thanks.
polymath (British Columbia)
Fun puzzle! Straightforward theme, executed cleverly with the crossers crossing their crossings. Which I expected to be hard but with some crossings I could guess all crossings but one. (Do not know the BEREZINA.) First half of solving was just moderate speed for me, with some rather cute deceptive clues that weren't too hard. Second half greatly surprised me: THERE NOW right away led to ANZIO to LUCREZIA and soon the rest was toast — in Across Lite.. [***begin boast alert***]This was my fastest Sunday NYT ever, in under 18 minutes, and I've been solving for over 50 years. And I'm a bad typist.[***end boast alert]***

Enjoyed the theme and especially the entry BEAUX GESTES — love that French -X plural. Kept expecting to find EDERLE and the CHANNEL or CHARON and the STYX in the theme, but it was not to be. No complaints!
Robert Michael Panoff (Durham, NC)
I have strong memories, just not clear ones, of ALPS (Hannibal) and STYX (being crossed in divine comedy) appearing in recent puzzles. Maybe mini's? Too little air and energy to go back and look. Been having smoke-in-air issues from fires in Western NC. . . hope all y'all doing better.
polymath (British Columbia)
RMP, sorry to hear about the air quality. Yes, at least STYX was in a very recent main puzzle. I've at least heard of the sacred river ALPH — but who crossed it?
David Connell (Weston CT)
polymath, the Alph was crossed by
Ralph Malph
natch
Beejay (San Francisco)
Having so much fun with this puzzle, I forgot to look at the title, but didn't need it this time. I didn't know what Napoleon crossed, so BEREZINA had to fill in. I also learned the word GIBER and its interesting French origin. Tried patio before LANAI, and meep before BEEP; more familiar with cartoons than cars.

I bet Ben VEREEN made a Wicked wizard, but I saw the pre-Broadway run here in SF with the fantastic Joel Gray in the role. Great show.
Rich in Atlanta (Decatur, Georgia)
Late to the party today. Had to watch a fairly fussy baby overnight; my last shift went from 4:00 a.m. to 10:00; at which point I went back to bed.

Enjoyable puzzle - good challenge throughout, though none of it just fell into place. Like so many others I was looking for the Rubicon. My mind sifted through lots of possibilities for the Atlantic before it ever got to Lindbergh (with some crosses). Ended up in the NW, where I was blanking on some things and had ELEVEN and couldn't see what else could possibly work. Finally came together after a break.

Weird OT question that was in my head when I woke up: How many of you have ever crossed the equator? I haven't. I have some guesses about who might have, but I'll wait and see.
Mean Old Lady (Conway, Arkansas)
I have NOT crossed the Equator. Hawaii is actually in the North Pacific.
suejean (Harrogate)
Hi Rich, Yes, I've crossed the equator. We went around the world in 2000, London, Thailand, Australia, New Zealand, Tahiti, California, London. I found it very exciting, a once in a lifetime experience.
Deadline (New York City)
I rarely even cross the Hudson anymore.
J. Konsult (Manhattan)
Fun puzzle. Once rolling I ran through in 48 minutes (below my average increasing my stats...and self worth : ) )

BUT...and here's the other shoe... the Road Runner said "Meep Meep" not "Beep Beep". Many younger-year hours of watching the foibles of Wile E. are my source.

Best regards.
Deke (Tucson, AZ)
Correct. The cartoon Road Runner said "Meep Meep." Most poeple get that wrong. BUT -- the Plymouth Road Runner, built 1968-80, said "Beep Beep."
J. Konsult (Manhattan)
Well played.
Robert Michael Panoff (Durham, NC)
now THIS is the definitive BEEP BEEP reference (and song!)

Nash Rambler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enqNl7tdLR4
John (Chicago)
George Peppard, Jr. (1928 – 1994) was an American film and television actor. In film he is perhaps remembered mostly for his role alongside Audrey Hepburn in Breakfast at Tiffany's (1961) and later as a character based on Howard Hughes in The Carpetbaggers (1964).

On television, he played the title role of millionaire insurance investigator and sleuth Thomas Banacek in the early-1970s mystery series Banacek.

In 1982, Peppard won the role of Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith in the TV action adventure series The A-Team, acting alongside Mr. T, Dirk Benedict and Dwight Schultz. In the series, the A-Team was a team of renegade commandos on the run from the military for "a crime they did not commit" while serving in the Vietnam War. The A-Team members made their collective living as soldiers of fortune, but they helped only people who came to them with justified grievances.

As Colonel John "Hannibal" Smith, Peppard played the leader of the A-Team, distinguished by his cigar smoking, confident smirk, black leather gloves, disguises, and distinctive catch phrase, "I love it when a plan comes together." The show ran five seasons on NBC from 1983–1987.

And, we all know Hannibal crossed the Alps, at the “L.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn6kEsloMdE
paulymath (Potomac, MD)
As Banacek, Peppard often brought up "old Polish sayings." The one I've always remembered is, "Only a fool tries to warm himself before a picture of a fire."
Wags (Colorado)
Like others, I was hoping to see Caesar crossing the Rubicon, remembering when I crossed it the first time on a bridge of the A14 autostrada. I had always assumed that the border between Gaul and "Italy" in those days was much farther north, near what is now France. Instead it is east of Florence, about two-thirds of the way up the boot.
John (Chicago)
Wags, Will retired that one after Patrick Berry's meta puzzle about Julius Caesar crossing the Rubicon.
hepcat8 (jive5)
Wow, this was some Sunday puzzle. Thank goodness for that overnight half-foot of snow that kept me from getting to church this morning; I needed extra solving time. For me, the trickiest clue was "bugged." I started out with OFFENDED before switching to INFESTED, which lasted until the dreaded "almost there" appeared. For some reason, I immediately realized that NSEs should be NSEC and finally wound up with INFECTED.

When I came to the blog, I was pleased to see so many sensible commenters who would hesitate to put a home pool on a LANAI; I wouldn't even locate a pool table on my porch.
Rich in Atlanta (Decatur, Georgia)
hepcat, I couldn't help mentally re-writing your second sentence as "Thank God I didn't have to go to church."

Sorry, I'm easily amused.
hepcat8 (jive5)
RiA, I love your version.
Mean Old Lady (Conway, Arkansas)
No RUBICON for JULIUS?

ART LAB?? LAB??? Really? Studio, atelier, even just Room.
Had SPIN N SLIDE for a while. Who knew?

Artillerymen have Santa Barbara for a patron(ess.)

This seemed to take forever, although I must say it was interesting to be forced to jump hither, thither, and yon. Does this count as my exercise for the day?
polymath (British Columbia)
If there were a school course about cacao, would that be called Chocolate Lab?
John (NJ)
Somebody 'splain 21A to me?
Nobis Miserere (Cleveland)
It's a porch, as I assume you know now, having looked it up. The word is used frequently in crosswords, but I agree: as a place for a pool it's pretty weak imo.
Mean Old Lady (Conway, Arkansas)
A LANAI is a porch in Hawaii. I'm not sure I'd put a pool there; maybe the definition has extended to mean 'a patio.' It's been a lot of years since I lived there.
Barry Ancona (New York, NY)
I think the clue was incomplete. Better as "Place for a home pool, maybe? Nah."
Nobis Miserere (Cleveland)
Great puzzle. Much fun. But no CHICKEN, THE ROAD; ONESFINGER, ONESFINGER? What is this?
CS (Providence, RI)
'May' I before CAN I. Wanted Hannibal to cross the Alps. Love seeing BEAUX GESTES for its sheer BEAUty.
Nobis Miserere (Cleveland)
But I don't think HANNIBAL can cross the ALPS, unless I'm missing something.
Barry Ancona (New York, NY)
...but none of the offspring survived.
CS (Providence, RI)
I have always heard it said that way -- that Hannibal crossed the Alps. Maybe it's an East Coast thing.
Tom Adams (Carmel Valley, CA)
I heard my mother roll over in her grave at 74 Down: "using can to ask for permission is wrong and that it should only be used in expressions to do with ability or capability.

But according to The Oxford Dictionaries:

...the 'permission' use of can is not in fact incorrect in standard English. The only difference between the two verbs is that one is more polite than the other. In informal contexts it’s perfectly acceptable to use can; in formal situations it would be better to use may.

And "Pretty please" is certainly informal. So now we know. RIP Betty Ann!
hepcat8 (jive5)
I remember my childhood choruses of "CAN I, CAN I, CAN I" being met with a resolute, "No, because I SAY SO."
polymath (British Columbia)
I think Oxford dictionaries, unparalleled for historical citations (OED), is really no authority on what is or is not "correct," and especially vis-à-vis U.S. English.
suejean (Harrogate)
I started in the NE with LUCREZIA, and soon had a lot of that filled in, great to see LINDBERGH crossing the ATLANTIC.

Some slight silly confusion in the NW as I had POTOMAC at first at 39A, and wondered if I was remembering my crossed rivers incorrectly. (Not to mention the crossers)

A nice way to start my Sunday, thanks Ed.
Lewis (Asheville, NC)
Cute theme, I don't remember seeing this done before. It filled in so steadily it didn't feel like a trudge, and it kept my solving muscles honed. Grateful for that. What I liked most were the clues for RODEO, TIE, HEN, and EWE, and the sweet poetic cross of PEW and EWE.

I also liked other "names" in the grid: CAL LEDAWAY, A.C. ROBATS, ROD EO, EVA DES, DEB UT, AL EPH, MA GELLAN, ART LAB, BEAU X. GESTES, DEL AWARE, DON ATES, and rap singer DA BON.
Nit Picker (Jersey City)
Vox populi, vox DEI, sed non vox collegii electivii.

(With apologies to Latin scholars.)
Nit Picker (Jersey City)
Bart is a precocious lad, so I had TWELVE then ELEVEN before the crosses led to AGE TEN.
Nit Picker (Jersey City)
What? No Rubicon?
Barry Ancona (New York, NY)
First sentence is the Constructor's Notes:
I was surprised to find six theme pairs that shared a common interior letter (couldn’t use Caesar-Rubicon, e.g.).
suejean (Harrogate)
I was expecting the Rubicon to turn up as well, so it was interesting to read Ed's explanation for not being able to use it. Obvious once it's pointed out.
Mean Old Lady (Conway, Arkansas)
But Julius was not Caesar when he crossed over!
Robert (Vancouver, Canada)
and Elke
Did not mind the cross referencing (too much).
Did MAGELLAN know that he was crossing the PACIFIC ?
Learned about the BEREZINA River and how it became NAPOLEON's Rubicon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berezina_River
Liked the novel clue for XWP's #4 Bobby ORR.
Family friendly puzzle : MERE and PERE and baby DIL (a SON) with a BIB TO BOOT.
Have previously commented on RED SEA vs. Reed Sea.
This hopefully not yet SENILE FAIR LADY (to R.) enjoyed ESP. the cluing for this fun puzzle, if I may SAY SO.
HALinNY (Lawn Gkuyland)
Pardon me for interrupting the Barry and Deadline debate.

I think today's puzzle was kind of neat because of the crossings. Certainly an interesting concept and a significant construction effort. We also had some interesting (i.e. misleading) clues. I must be getting soft as this is the second week in a row that I had something positive to say about the puzzle.
Deadline (New York City)
I guess I mostly expressed my thoughts in my response to Barry, trying to say how I felt about cross-references and factuals.

Anyway, I really liked the puzzle. I very much liked the way the crossers crossed the crosseds, and how they all intersected (so to speak) with the factuals. Many of them helped with the sovle: Yes, I knew WASHINGTON crossed the DELAWARE and had fun seeing that happen.

Not always though. I'm not up on my Chinese history, but with YANGTZE being crossed by ?AO, what could it be but MAO? (No idea who that ODOM person is.)

More difficult was BERZINA, which I've never heard of, but I guess NAPOLEON crossed it. I wasn't sure about the Z, though, but had a niggling echo of a thought that there was someone named ZOE Saldana.

Other problems: How is [7-up, e.g.] TIE? I'm guessing it's not the soft drink, but is there a card game? And what does it all mean? HEN next door didn't help any at all.

My worst moment is that I didn't know NANNIE Helen Burroughs. A post-solve Google told me that she was before my time as a civil rights activist, but I should have known my history, and I didn't. OTOH, I did mention Medgar EVERS a few days ago when that same last name (however pronounced) was clued with a baseball player.

Thanks, all concerned. I enjoyed this puzzle.
Barry Ancona (New York, NY)
7-up = 7 all = 7-7 = a tie(d) score.
John (Chicago)
The soft drink is 7-Up. The clue is 7-up. It's the kind of misdirection that tickles Martin.
steve l (Chestnut Ridge, NY)
Jim "Blue Moon" Odom. Baseball. Sports again. Winning 3 games in a World Series is an amazing feat for a pitcher, especially since the whole team only needs 4 wins, and a pitcher is in a rotation with at least three other guys.

EVERS: Johnny EE-vers, Medgar EV-ers.
Erin (Washington, DC)
I generally dislike circular cross-referencing as well, but I thoroughly enjoyed this puzzle and make an exception for today's. Particularly because each one of the river crossings was well known to history, and therefore I got each of them from just a handful of the non-river crosses. Plus I was grinning from the combination of river crossings and crosswords, the additional level of wordplay tickling my funny bone.
polymath (British Columbia)
Agreed. I liked that, because of how the Across Lite software works, when the cursor was in one square of a theme pair, the clues for both the crosser and the crossee were automatically visible.
John (Chicago)
Martin,

Never did the theme
i
n
d.
Barry Ancona (New York, NY)
John,
LOL here (and over your last post in yesterday's comments).
Martin (California)
No Sophia?
John (Chicago)
Martin,

Is that soh-FEE-uh, or SOH-fee-uh?
Liz B (Durham, NC)
I had a slower start than usual for a Sunday puzzle, with not much going into the grid on the first pass. But then things started to fill in. I liked the Scrabbly middle, with BEAUX GESTES crossing YANGTZE. Didn't know about the BEREZINA at all, or that SLIP N SLIDEs were made by Wham-O, so that's what I learned today.
judy d (livingston nj)
very easy Sunday. we learned about Magellan in grade school, as well as Washington crossing the Delaware and Moses crossing the Red Sea. Went fast
Barry Ancona (New York, NY)
Deb provided an illustration for 90D/109A.
Here is some music for 86D/115A:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2W1Wi2U9sQ
Barry Ancona (New York, NY)
About yesterday's puzzle, Deadline wrote (in part): "Deb's explanation (excuse really) about 22 and 23A doesn't make me dislike circular cross-referencing any less." I await her thoughts on today's puzzle!

(Deja vu all over again?)
Deadline (New York City)
No, Barry, no deja vu.

Actually, what Deb said today is pretty much my thinking.

I ordinarily don't like cross-references because they interfere with, and don't add to, the process of solving the puzzle. I completely dislike circular cross-references (each clue saying something like "See [the other one]," and I don't care how many crossings help you solve it; I think it stinks.

The other thing I've complained about recently is the overuse of "factuals"--the know-it-or-don't entries that aren't language related or otherwise inferrable. Those make for trivia games disguised as XWPs, and take away the puzzling-out fun.

But I think today's puzzle uses both cross-referencing and general non-language-related knowledge to good effect. The "cross" part was literal, and absolutely non-circular, which was a lot of fun, and the factual part both helped and informed.

Sorry if I seem to be inconsistent. Fact is, I like innovation and flexibility in my games, but not at the expense of the enjoyment of actually playing the game.
Barry Ancona (New York, NY)
Hey, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
skisch.pklaw (san francisco)
If you don't like factuals try cryptic crosswords instead.