These three stories were so hard to listen to. I can't say that I learned anything new about the other side, just confirmation, unfortunately. Call it the bubble, but I'm happy to surround myself with my empathetic, thoughtful, liberal friends and family. We may have lost this one, but we'll never give up the fight for equality. For those who are in pain and struggling, who voted for Trump, I truly hope that their lives will improve. I'll be fighting for those who have always gotten the short end of the stick, however.
1
Question #17 implies that you do not feel any of your readers - or any of your readers who would embark on this discussion - supported Trump. I realize that the Times has been criticized as favoring Clinton. This is an example of the small indicators that you send out the reflect that leaning.
I write this as a loyal Times subscriber and a staunch progressive. I'm spending time listening to criticisms about liberals and trying to understand others' perspectives.
I write this as a loyal Times subscriber and a staunch progressive. I'm spending time listening to criticisms about liberals and trying to understand others' perspectives.
1
We have far more important things to discuss at our Thanksgiving. Namely, the health and welfare of each person along with offers to help each other and the causes we support. This free for all of an election is hardly worth the precious time we have together.
2
You're assuming no one in the room has access to a weapon and that no one is drunk. Two very wrong assumptions to make on Thanksgiving.
9
Absolutely NOT. The last time I shared a meal with my immediate family the dinner conversation included racist jokes, jokes about climate change, an anti homosexual tirade by one of the teenage sons which was received with approving laughter and smiles. Fox news was the only "news" broadcast in their home.
These are affluent college educated business owners. I am a retired, college educated, life long blue collar union member. We are diametrically polar opposites. There is no way in the world I want to spend my holidays in their company....and I'm betting they wouldn't want to share their holidays with me either.
These are affluent college educated business owners. I am a retired, college educated, life long blue collar union member. We are diametrically polar opposites. There is no way in the world I want to spend my holidays in their company....and I'm betting they wouldn't want to share their holidays with me either.
10
Best thing to do in my house is to forgo any discussion. I don't consider him to be my President. He is truly deplorable and the GOP and its ilk didn't respect Obama's Presidency and the only thing they have to offer is to undo. Our nation cannot survive as a nation of let's undo the previous administration.
So go ahead and gloat because what goes round comes around.
So go ahead and gloat because what goes round comes around.
5
We are in the middle of the Civil War pt II; it is different than the first, perhaps we are not divided geographically in quite the same way but in other ways it is much the same . Ignoring the fact that we are at war with ourselves will not make it go away. I simply have left those people behind who support racist ways and intolerance and who are not willing to look critically and honestly at the hellscape that our country has become.
12
I KNOW the Trump voters are racists and misogynists. My office is full of them and I've heard them say really racist or misogynistic things even in my brown presence. Things like, "I don't like it when immigrants come to this country and live in little India or Chinatown... If that's what they want, why not stay home." They never question that the rest of the country is little England! I don't need to ask these questions...
8
All unhappy families are alike. Find a friend who likes to cook and spend Thanksgiving with her (him). Bring wine (lots) and dessert.
2
These questions are good ones, and we have a truly deep need for listening and peacemaking in our families and in our country.
But here's the thing. There are nonnegotiable prerequisites for political discussion. Mine include respect for science, journalism, ethics, equality, and more. These are the foundations of our democracy that protect us all.
Happy to discuss the contentious issues of big vs small government, immigration policy, health care and more, as long as we're all coming to the table with shared commitment-- a commitment that's been eroded by entertainment news, abandoned by our Congress, and dealt a fatal blow by the president-elect's actions and rhetoric.
But here's the thing. There are nonnegotiable prerequisites for political discussion. Mine include respect for science, journalism, ethics, equality, and more. These are the foundations of our democracy that protect us all.
Happy to discuss the contentious issues of big vs small government, immigration policy, health care and more, as long as we're all coming to the table with shared commitment-- a commitment that's been eroded by entertainment news, abandoned by our Congress, and dealt a fatal blow by the president-elect's actions and rhetoric.
23
This one's the best.
Sorry, but the voters who chose Trump did so out of fear of "Other," and the failure to recognize that robots and not Mexicans got the jobs they lost. As a nation, we need to talk about what to do for for the dispossessed "have nots." The answer is not to throw Muslims, People of Color, Jews, LGBQ's, Native Americans and anyone who's "different" under the bus. It may be the second largest problem we face; just after global warming.
14
You know this about everybody? I hate to say this, but you are not correct about at ,east one person.
Can you tell me what you, personally are doing to aid the "have nots?" Which homeless shelters do you work in or donate to? Which resettlement groups do you work with to assist immigrants? I could go on. I just wonder if you and your "talking about" these problems is just that. I believe we need less talk and more people taking action, personally, to put their "skin" in the game. How about you?
Jack, then that makes at least 2 people. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving.
Not a problem at my house.All of my 3 children,2 sons and a daughter, despite earning BA's and MA's at some of the leading Leftwing universities in the nation, were all blessed with common sense, logic, intelligence and the intuitive insight that Clinton's history of pathological lying and corruption posed a far greater threat to the nation than Trump's populist leanings. Of course those single issue voters and those who robotically kept proclaiming 'it's time for a woman' as if that was all that mattered and ignored Clinton's blatant untrustworthiness were all morally bankrupt.
11
@Jacob handelsman: Did your children's fine minds lead them to any insight about TRUMP'S pathological lying, blatant untrustworthiness, and complete lack of any genuine qualifications as president? Or did that not come up?
Did their fine minds also lead them to overlook Trump being an admitted sexual predator and admitted adulterer? A multi-bankrupt to whom no American bank will lend money? If you and your children find Trump's (lack of) morals/ethics acceptable, while you simultaneously dismiss Clinton, I'd say that your biases are showing.
Would your children want to work for Trump as contractors, and get paid whatever percentage of their invoice Trump decided to pay? Would you be confident your daughter would not be possibly molested by him? (Of course, if Trump decided your daughter was not a "10" then she'd be safe!)
I hate to break it to you, but Trump's "populist leanings" were just the sound-bite that got him what he wanted. His attention span is shorter than this sentence. Watch what happens in the next 4 years; you'll get lots of smoke & mirrors, and very little real "populist" change.
Did their fine minds also lead them to overlook Trump being an admitted sexual predator and admitted adulterer? A multi-bankrupt to whom no American bank will lend money? If you and your children find Trump's (lack of) morals/ethics acceptable, while you simultaneously dismiss Clinton, I'd say that your biases are showing.
Would your children want to work for Trump as contractors, and get paid whatever percentage of their invoice Trump decided to pay? Would you be confident your daughter would not be possibly molested by him? (Of course, if Trump decided your daughter was not a "10" then she'd be safe!)
I hate to break it to you, but Trump's "populist leanings" were just the sound-bite that got him what he wanted. His attention span is shorter than this sentence. Watch what happens in the next 4 years; you'll get lots of smoke & mirrors, and very little real "populist" change.
6
Thanksgiving dinner is usually a family affair; have you ever witnessed a family asking so many civilized questions at any dinner table?
2
Do you often throw an entire race of people under the bus? ... pass the gravy please...
23
None of this mutual introspection for me. I just plan to gloat!
5
Good luck with that.
I will never accept anyone with Trump's level of ignorance, bias and self-centered narcissism as president of these great United States - and I feel no need to talk about it. Period, the end.
30
It's good to step out of the echo chamber, but if the purpose of the exercise is merely to express one's own views and not actually to listen, the questions are pointless.
5
This was a joke right?
11
I'm perfectly happy with my negative opinion of trump voters and have no intention of changing it. I'm taking a page out of the republican playbook and plan on doing everything I can to make trump seem like a freak or not a true American. I had to listen to it for 8 years. I wish I could be at the state of the union speech so I could shout out "you lie." Republicans showed me how the game is played. Live with it.
33
Right after Obama was elected, an in-law said to us, "That's ok, my people assassinate your people." I held my breath for 8 years. I hoped that over time her views would mature and take on a less severe tone, but no. Your questions naively dance around what's actually happening out here. People are getting direct death threats from their family and friends at the dinner table for speaking out against Trump. Trump himself is fanning those flames. A Republican millennial said in class the other day to a mixed race group of fellow students, 'Not all Republicans are racist.' Let me decode that for you. It's so cute. It means 'not a racist at this little moment in time.' These are my people and they don't fool me for a minute.
13
How tolerant and thoughtful of you to brand an entire political party as racists. Your in law may be a racist and thus you infer that all others are too. I wouldn't belong to either of the major parties because of the extreme tone and lack of cooperation that each displays.
Gee, das814, how could we possibly label an entire political party as racists when your presidential nominee is a raging racist?
1
"12. Do you feel ignored or misunderstood as a voter? If so, for how long?"
Yes. 45 years.
Insipid psychobabble question.
Yes. 45 years.
Insipid psychobabble question.
7
You left out this final, important question: "So how will you feel in a year from now if there is no wall, manufacturing jobs have not returned in great numbers, ISIS is still out there, health care is not affordable, Wall Street and banks have been freed up to do what they want, and people throughout our country continue to antagonize each other?
29
And how do feel about the privatization of Medicare?
5
I love this question from j.c. He hones in on the future reality.
1
And Social Security?
Our last family dispute was in 1965, when my mother's racist brother started a fight among the adults, because my parents were strong supporters of Dr. King and his policies, and my uncle thought they were "race traitors."
We kids sat in the front of our grandparents' house and wondered what all of the fuss was about, while my cousin taught us a racist rhyme about Chinese and Japanese kids. My dad came out of the kitchen, saw us reciting this rhyme, and hauled me out onto the porch, where he lectured me about making fun of people and promised consequences if he ever heard that I'd been mocking people for their appearance again.
That was the last time we ever had a major family reunion with my mother's family. We saw our grandparents separately from then on.
Can't say we missed our uncle or his kids. We've had many wonderful family dinners with all of our other relatives and friends, and lots of great, intelligent, and informed discussions about politics, without worrying whether someone was going to get belligerent and abusive. Life is too short to waste it on arguing with people who foster hatred in themselves and others. You can call it living in a bubble, but I call it living rationally, in good emotional health.
We kids sat in the front of our grandparents' house and wondered what all of the fuss was about, while my cousin taught us a racist rhyme about Chinese and Japanese kids. My dad came out of the kitchen, saw us reciting this rhyme, and hauled me out onto the porch, where he lectured me about making fun of people and promised consequences if he ever heard that I'd been mocking people for their appearance again.
That was the last time we ever had a major family reunion with my mother's family. We saw our grandparents separately from then on.
Can't say we missed our uncle or his kids. We've had many wonderful family dinners with all of our other relatives and friends, and lots of great, intelligent, and informed discussions about politics, without worrying whether someone was going to get belligerent and abusive. Life is too short to waste it on arguing with people who foster hatred in themselves and others. You can call it living in a bubble, but I call it living rationally, in good emotional health.
34
I'm just fortunate in that we're all dems in this deep blue state. Any one who voted for that man is keeping it very quiet. All I have to say is this: if you voted for him, you voted for the whole package. You voted for an admitted sexual predator, a racist, a ruthless "businessman" who profits from factories in Asia, employs illegal immigrants whom he then cheats out of their meagre salaries, and reneges on payments due to his vendors and suppliers. When you voted for this man, you voted for the WHOLE PACKAGE! THIS is what you voted for! Sorry, no normalization allowed.
30
And they voted for someone who lies 90% of the time but are very self-righteous in their belief that HRC is a liar.
11
Have you looked at the number of counties that voted Republican in NYS? I believe that 45 of the 62 counties in the state did not vote for Mrs. Clinton. In some of those counties the result was not as "blue " as you might have liked it to be. Yes, upstate, central, northern and western New York are not in lock step with the cities. You do know that the farmers and dairy men that produce your food a re in these regions, don't you? Maybe they have more to say than you think.
So, reciprocally, many voters will have no normalization with you either. That does not sound like a way to accomplish anything. But that may be exactly what you want.
So, reciprocally, many voters will have no normalization with you either. That does not sound like a way to accomplish anything. But that may be exactly what you want.
1
This is such an awful piece for NYT to publish. Many people probably do not need to talk about it. Why hinting people to fight, especially during dinner?
The reality is, both candidates were awful, and I am happy to see either one of them lose.
The reality is, both candidates were awful, and I am happy to see either one of them lose.
5
Another important question: Why do all of the photos you take of me make me look like I have a double chin?
7
This, more than anything else (and there was plenty) alarms me. What's next, a portrait of the leader in every house and establishment?
It is this comment, above all, that frightens me the most. What's next? A portrait of the leader in every home and establishment?
Enough. We've been trying to keep the peace at the Thanksgiving table for too long. Listening in strained silence as our drunk uncles bray about welfare cheats, Mexican rapists and sharia law. We retreated, we cowered, we snickered behind their backs, and dealt with it by hitting the Chardonnay. This Thanksgiving that changes. This Thanksgiving, as you sit at the table and your right-winger relatives offer up something triumphant, this time we say, loud, clear:
"Donald Trmp is a Fascist. End of discussion. Now pass the gravy and and zip it."
We let this election happen because we didn't face down the bullies, the fat, swaggering gasbags who assumed volume would make up for sense. We are responsible for all the damage that's going to happen, because we were intimidated. Time to stop being the adults in the room. It hasn't worked. And if that means some thrown food, some tears, and some screeching, departing tires, so be it. The counter-revolution starts tomorrow.
Because Donald Trump is a Fascist.
"Donald Trmp is a Fascist. End of discussion. Now pass the gravy and and zip it."
We let this election happen because we didn't face down the bullies, the fat, swaggering gasbags who assumed volume would make up for sense. We are responsible for all the damage that's going to happen, because we were intimidated. Time to stop being the adults in the room. It hasn't worked. And if that means some thrown food, some tears, and some screeching, departing tires, so be it. The counter-revolution starts tomorrow.
Because Donald Trump is a Fascist.
45
You rock, Sweetie. Follow up that line with "And by the way, she won by over 2 million votes."
8
Put the politics chat on the back burner and drink heavily. People who "bought" the Trump lies can look in their own mirror. America drank the kool aid.........enjoy.
4
Earlier this week I posted the following comment regarding another post-election article -- please indulge me as I repeat it here --
My wife and I have a small television set in our kitchen, which is not connected to our cable TV service -- which we turn on every morning for a couple of hours to watch the news while preparing for the day ahead -
Over the past eighteen months or so, we spent those two hours watching with a great interest and - like many people, lots of frustration - the seemingly-endless and opinionated coverage leading up to the election --
On November 9th - the day after the election - we stopped watching the news - cold turkey - and decided to look for other viewing options available during that time slot which as you can imagine - are fairly limited on a set using a DTV converter box and rabbit-ear antennae --
After a couple of week of this, my wife came home from work the other day from her job at a major cultural non-profit here in New York City --
As usual, I asked her how her day had been - to which she replied --
"I couldn't get the theme song from 'I Dream of Jeannie' out of my head all day."
Lucky girl...
Hmm -- "Theme songs from television shows of the sixties" -- now there's a good topic for conversation around the dinner table tomorrow...
My wife and I have a small television set in our kitchen, which is not connected to our cable TV service -- which we turn on every morning for a couple of hours to watch the news while preparing for the day ahead -
Over the past eighteen months or so, we spent those two hours watching with a great interest and - like many people, lots of frustration - the seemingly-endless and opinionated coverage leading up to the election --
On November 9th - the day after the election - we stopped watching the news - cold turkey - and decided to look for other viewing options available during that time slot which as you can imagine - are fairly limited on a set using a DTV converter box and rabbit-ear antennae --
After a couple of week of this, my wife came home from work the other day from her job at a major cultural non-profit here in New York City --
As usual, I asked her how her day had been - to which she replied --
"I couldn't get the theme song from 'I Dream of Jeannie' out of my head all day."
Lucky girl...
Hmm -- "Theme songs from television shows of the sixties" -- now there's a good topic for conversation around the dinner table tomorrow...
11
Thank you for this wonderful comment. It madey day!
Thank for this comment. It made my day!!
Easy for us. I voted for Gary Johnson and my wife voted for Jill Stein. She is left and I am right so we meet in the middle (in the back). We respect each other's ideology and stayed away from Identity Politics promulgated by both major party candidates. Also, since our candidates were likely to lose we were not tied to the outcome.
1
so, why did you vote then Michael?
6
As a citizen of the USA you will suffer the consequences of your choice along with the rest of America under DJT
1
Thank you for this guide to productive conversation. It helped me see the difference between honest listening and interactions engaged in for the sole purpose of trying to create change in another. Listening isn't as easy as most of us like to believe, but it does enrich both the listener and the one that feels heard.
2
Last I heard, votes are secret. The election is over and done, but how we voted is no one's business.
Discuss issues, without name-calling or shouting. The why of what people think about various issues is much more important than for whom they voted.
Discuss issues, without name-calling or shouting. The why of what people think about various issues is much more important than for whom they voted.
5
How about these questions.
Do you know how much money those policies cost me
Have you thought about whether those policies put my health in danger
How do your moral beliefs on sanctity of life conflict with food access, homelessness, healthcare access by the living
Do you believe your moral beliefs should match your actions
Do you believe verifying facts is important
Do you know how much money those policies cost me
Have you thought about whether those policies put my health in danger
How do your moral beliefs on sanctity of life conflict with food access, homelessness, healthcare access by the living
Do you believe your moral beliefs should match your actions
Do you believe verifying facts is important
20
Do you still like me?
How about if we all just move on?
How about if we all just move on?
1
How sad and absurd that the NYTimes, one of the world's "great" papers, feels it should tell us how to interact. For weeks this paper has had articles about how to get alone during the holiday, now we are given specific questions to ask our loved ones and friends about why they voted the way they did.
What an entitled, thin skinned group of readers you either have or think you have.
People talk, they know how to talk, I turned to this half hoping for some absurdist take on this but no, same nonsense you have been spouting for months, treating your readers like babies. The folks you are speaking to are NOT the New Yorkers I know.
Maybe it's time for the Grey Lady to start working on getting over this election much as most of the rest of the country has, or is at least working toward.
What an entitled, thin skinned group of readers you either have or think you have.
People talk, they know how to talk, I turned to this half hoping for some absurdist take on this but no, same nonsense you have been spouting for months, treating your readers like babies. The folks you are speaking to are NOT the New Yorkers I know.
Maybe it's time for the Grey Lady to start working on getting over this election much as most of the rest of the country has, or is at least working toward.
6
Splash some cold water on your face. The NYT is NOT dictating anything. Take it with a grain of salt and some humor. That's all.
I need to first wait and watch to see if President Trump will be different than candidate Trump. I still have a very thin thread of hope that the insanity I saw in this campaign was simply a ploy on his part to get votes. All I saw of candidate Trump was a mean, self-centered, self-indulgent person who played on people’s fears and insecurities and whose bluster seemed to grant a license to many people to release their own dark thoughts. He didn’t tap an untapped vein of people who were being overlooked or ignored; he simply said things to them that were untrue, but seemed to give them hope. Mrs. Clinton and most anyone who is generally aware, knew of this angry, being-left-behind population, but the solutions to their plight are complex. And, she was simply not willing and too ethical to mislead them simply to get their vote. If Mr. Trump leads differently than he campaigned I’ll soften my view but until I see this I simply don’t trust him to take this country in the right direction. I will look very hard for common ground with Trump voters but their President must prove he is worthy of my/our trust; he has done nothing yet to earn it. More so, he has a lot of damage and hurt to undo first.
43
As James Carville said to Bill Clinton in 1992, "It's the economy, stupid". It's still the economy and Clinton voters can't seem to understand that. They don't see the "deplorables" or choose not to.
I did not vote for Trump but HRC is either a bald faced liar that would make her husband blush or she is the most incompetent candidate since the Civil War.
I did not vote for Trump but HRC is either a bald faced liar that would make her husband blush or she is the most incompetent candidate since the Civil War.
4
I hope you're not holding your breath on any change from T-rump. He is who he is and has been for 70 years - and it's ethically ugly.
8
An excellent and measured comment. You would be a most excellent Thanksgiving guest.
1
This is a window into the mind of your typical metropolitan liberal.
Most of the country doesn't foam at the mouth with hatred for Trump. I know this blows their minds. But most of America gets by every single day interacting with people they disagree with, and they didn't need a list of questions to help guide their interactions.
Through the worldview of the NY Times, they think America needs this despite all evidence to the contrary (like Trump's approval rating being higher than it was pre election and even Hillary voters being optimistic according to recent poll.) The times thinks we need this, because they reacted with the same disgust and contempt for America as every other leftist media outfit that was so sure Hillary would win. They realize THEY need this list (in case they ever let an outsider penetrate their echo chamber)
We don't need it. As you continue through the stages of grief after watching your candidate lose (and her political future evaporate), I can recommend the "safe space" at any major university. I hear they offer play dough, hot tea, and quiet spaces for reflecting on the grief of Hillary's loss.
Most of the country doesn't foam at the mouth with hatred for Trump. I know this blows their minds. But most of America gets by every single day interacting with people they disagree with, and they didn't need a list of questions to help guide their interactions.
Through the worldview of the NY Times, they think America needs this despite all evidence to the contrary (like Trump's approval rating being higher than it was pre election and even Hillary voters being optimistic according to recent poll.) The times thinks we need this, because they reacted with the same disgust and contempt for America as every other leftist media outfit that was so sure Hillary would win. They realize THEY need this list (in case they ever let an outsider penetrate their echo chamber)
We don't need it. As you continue through the stages of grief after watching your candidate lose (and her political future evaporate), I can recommend the "safe space" at any major university. I hear they offer play dough, hot tea, and quiet spaces for reflecting on the grief of Hillary's loss.
27
I agreed with your opening statement as I thought this idea sounded sort of dumb. By the time I got through your entire comment however, I began thinking perhaps Mr Barbaro was right after all.
1
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
juan is right about the echo chamber, but has it backwards. I've had enough political discussion with my ultra-conservative 45 year old son and his wife and folks like them to understand there is no hope of cracking that close-minded shell of an alternative myth-based belief system they nurture.
4
I voted Clinton. He didn't. Two weeks after the election he declared anyone still upset over Hillary's loss to be a bed-wetter. The hate graffiti in a Brooklyn Heights park this week? He believes it was done by a Hillary supporter. Why? To strengthen the manufactured notion that Trump is a bigot and racist.
He is my boyfriend of several years. We live under the same roof. As a joke once I put parental controls on Fox News (wasn't met with laughter). I've taken up saying "That doesn't sound like anything to me", a la Westworld, in response to any pro-Trump comment.
I wonder a lot if we can make it through this. I wonder how someone I've always thought of as empathetic, caring and generous can't see the bigotry in front of him. There's an excuse or defense for every terrible tweet or hot-mic moment.
It feels like we're tragically past this conversation. But we still love each other and I'm open to giving this exercise a try. Not confident he will be, but worth a shot. In the meantime I'm venting my sadness in a NYT comment section, because I'm too embarrassed for my friends and family to know I live with someone so content with a Trump presidency. Incidentally he voted for Jill Stein, but that's irrelevant at this point.
He is my boyfriend of several years. We live under the same roof. As a joke once I put parental controls on Fox News (wasn't met with laughter). I've taken up saying "That doesn't sound like anything to me", a la Westworld, in response to any pro-Trump comment.
I wonder a lot if we can make it through this. I wonder how someone I've always thought of as empathetic, caring and generous can't see the bigotry in front of him. There's an excuse or defense for every terrible tweet or hot-mic moment.
It feels like we're tragically past this conversation. But we still love each other and I'm open to giving this exercise a try. Not confident he will be, but worth a shot. In the meantime I'm venting my sadness in a NYT comment section, because I'm too embarrassed for my friends and family to know I live with someone so content with a Trump presidency. Incidentally he voted for Jill Stein, but that's irrelevant at this point.
38
Wow. If only you could read this from the perspective of an outsider. Your contempt for him predated your candidate's loss. As I mentioned in my first comment on the article, I suspect the reason this was drawn up was because the NY Times (or anyone like them) needs it to get thru the holidays. Sometimes when we are so stuck in our ideological bubble that we cannot fathom anyone existing outside of it, more self reflection is in order.
2
I am in the exact same boat. I accept the result and will be openminded to give the new administration the benefit of doubt but just wish others wouldn't be so quick to dismiss or disregard the feelings others maybe experiencing. The only way to come together is to try to understand one another to help one another.
8
Juan,
Nailing it with each post.
It's their bubble, and how dare you or anyone else burst it. You are dismissed with a wave of their privileged hands as being a redstater, luddite, flyover country person, or, worse, a worshipper of the holy trinity of: racistsexisthomophobe.
In other words, you are deplorable and will be ever so.
Nailing it with each post.
It's their bubble, and how dare you or anyone else burst it. You are dismissed with a wave of their privileged hands as being a redstater, luddite, flyover country person, or, worse, a worshipper of the holy trinity of: racistsexisthomophobe.
In other words, you are deplorable and will be ever so.
13
Lefties in the red states have been navigating family relationships in the face of blind conservatism for our entire, adult lives. Most of us don't talk about politics at family gatherings because it leads to pointless conflict that goes nowhere. It serves no purpose! If our families won't even listen to basic, readily-available facts about the right, how can you possibly think some corny script is going help us foster understanding?
My friends and I laugh about journalists and Dems getting all into a tizzy about this unexpected turnout of the white, rural vote. They marvel at how this population has wants and needs that are actually legitimate! It appears these people are real and not just a punchline for classist stereotypes! Yet the media and press would rather have this population translated by neo-cons like JD Vance rather than just going out to find leftists who actually make their homes in the rural states.
Find leftists who are proud of where they come from, know the problems, and can tell you what doesn't work. Here's what we'll tell you: Calm, rational chats do not work with this crowd. The Democratic leaders have to get as mean as the right and start emphasising class. We have to find a message that drowns out the seductive call of gays, guns, and god.
But I can promise you, the revolution ain't starting at my dinner table after a weeks worth of cleaning and cooking.
My friends and I laugh about journalists and Dems getting all into a tizzy about this unexpected turnout of the white, rural vote. They marvel at how this population has wants and needs that are actually legitimate! It appears these people are real and not just a punchline for classist stereotypes! Yet the media and press would rather have this population translated by neo-cons like JD Vance rather than just going out to find leftists who actually make their homes in the rural states.
Find leftists who are proud of where they come from, know the problems, and can tell you what doesn't work. Here's what we'll tell you: Calm, rational chats do not work with this crowd. The Democratic leaders have to get as mean as the right and start emphasising class. We have to find a message that drowns out the seductive call of gays, guns, and god.
But I can promise you, the revolution ain't starting at my dinner table after a weeks worth of cleaning and cooking.
20
It's not exactly all white people. Trump got an impressive amount of Latino and Black votes. What do you call those people? Reprobate deplorables?
6
Flipped votes.
4
All anti- choice votes.
I've been married to my husband 25 years. About 3 years in, during a heated argument about politics with his right-wing sister, my father-in-law intervened and told them both to stop fighting. The only things we've all ever agreed on politically since then, is that political discussions were off the table at our family gatherings. Saved me a lot of indigestion and probably our relationship over the years. There are plenty of other things to talk about.
10
What am I most thankful for this year?
That I don't have to spend Thanksgiving with my wife's racist, sexist, honophobic, xenophobic republican parents because we just cancelled the trip.
Hooooray!
We're spending it Thanksgiving with my multi-cultural family instead...the way it should be.
I guess her anti-government parents can stay home counting their social security checks and medicare reimbursements.
God bless us everyone...
That I don't have to spend Thanksgiving with my wife's racist, sexist, honophobic, xenophobic republican parents because we just cancelled the trip.
Hooooray!
We're spending it Thanksgiving with my multi-cultural family instead...the way it should be.
I guess her anti-government parents can stay home counting their social security checks and medicare reimbursements.
God bless us everyone...
47
What it really comes down to: Person A ignored the propaganda-driven, state-run mainstream media and Person B took it as gospel truth without considering alternative, privately run news outlets (or what Person A did).
The End.
The End.
11
The Times Editorial Board needs to practice what it publishes in its own paper.
As for The Times' readers, they seem to be having difficulty coming to terms with reality. Perhaps because their image of a Trump presidency was created and promoted by the person running against him. Hillary worked very hard to get everyone to believe a Trump presidency was completely unimaginable, a disaster to be avoided at all costs.
It turns out Hillary was wrong about a lot of things. So was the media. So are Trump deniers who refuse to accept that he won.
As for The Times' readers, they seem to be having difficulty coming to terms with reality. Perhaps because their image of a Trump presidency was created and promoted by the person running against him. Hillary worked very hard to get everyone to believe a Trump presidency was completely unimaginable, a disaster to be avoided at all costs.
It turns out Hillary was wrong about a lot of things. So was the media. So are Trump deniers who refuse to accept that he won.
9
This Times reader has listened to all of the things that Trump promised he would do during the run-up to the election, and it was his words - not any coverage by the media or framing by Hillary Clinton - that left me appalled and frightened.
That he is now back-tracking on some of the very ideas that gained him the most enthusiasm from his core supporters ("lock her up!!") is no surprise, as many of them were both untenable and not supported by the laws of our country. That he is NOT back-tracking on things like removing himself decisions related to his businesses is also not surprising, given that his first interest is clearly himself.
I accept that he won, and accept that we have a lot of darkness in front of us. What I wonder is how far we'll have to sink in order for his supporters to come to terms with the reality they have gotten us all into.
That he is now back-tracking on some of the very ideas that gained him the most enthusiasm from his core supporters ("lock her up!!") is no surprise, as many of them were both untenable and not supported by the laws of our country. That he is NOT back-tracking on things like removing himself decisions related to his businesses is also not surprising, given that his first interest is clearly himself.
I accept that he won, and accept that we have a lot of darkness in front of us. What I wonder is how far we'll have to sink in order for his supporters to come to terms with the reality they have gotten us all into.
5
Say what you will about HRC, but DT said and did some of the most vile and despicable things during the campaign. You wait and see. The next four years his administration will be riddled with scandal, nepotism, conflicts of interest and criminality. His bloviating will not stop. His business acumen? Six bankruptcies, unpaid taxes, sham foundation, Trump U, sexual predation. And you'd think Trump supporters were looking for some one with character.
The rationale for this article is just plain ridiculous.
19
Yup.
As if anyone would want to talk to a white supremacist.
As if anyone would want to talk to a white supremacist.
17
Or, it could also mean that you ARE a racist. If we've succeeded at nothing else in our society, we've succeeded in turning the word 'racist' into a 100% perjorative term. Nobody WANTS to be a racist, but we all have our biases. I am guilty of looking at my kid's soccer roster and thinking that a winning season was possible based on the hispanic sounding last names. I am guilty of locking my car doors when I enter what I perceive to be 'sketchy' neighborhoods filled with brown or black folks. I am guilty of looking up my neighbor's last name to find its derivation so I could know which Asian ethnicity they belong to. (If it mattered, why didn't I ask them?) I am a racist. I strive every day to look at the world as fairly as I can in my white, non-denominational skin and ask myself how it might be different for someone else.
18
All he peddled was fear and hate.
2
Typical Clinton/Trump pairs set up by the NYT. Where's Bernie Sanders?
I think at this point a little live-and-let-live is in order for those whom we allegedly "love." Let us give one another a break from our anger and overbearing opinions. Let us not be Trumpish. There is a lot to talk about in this world other than the past hideous election, especially at Thanksgiving. Like how about the National Book Awards? Like Dylan not showing up at the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony? Like the breathtaking sunsets at this time of year? And if you want controversy, how about the amazing movie "Billy Lynn's Long Half-time Walk?"
I think at this point a little live-and-let-live is in order for those whom we allegedly "love." Let us give one another a break from our anger and overbearing opinions. Let us not be Trumpish. There is a lot to talk about in this world other than the past hideous election, especially at Thanksgiving. Like how about the National Book Awards? Like Dylan not showing up at the Nobel Peace Prize ceremony? Like the breathtaking sunsets at this time of year? And if you want controversy, how about the amazing movie "Billy Lynn's Long Half-time Walk?"
5
This is not the most important or most difficult conversation. That one is with people who did not vote at all, who have never voted, and have a principled stance against voting. That is the conversation that is shredding my family right now.
24
Excellent point! I bet these questions could be adapted.
2
Seriously? Shredding your family?!? Over a vote?!? Thank heavens my family is not this insane, regardless of political bent. We actually LOVE one another and certainly know how to agree to disagree....
Firstly there has been an on going divide in this,country for some time before Obama and Bush. We are controlled by the super elite the real movers and shakers from three specific locations globally,London the Vatican and Washington DC. I encourage everyone to research what all three share in common. I must say Pope Francis is remarkable in his fight against the real ppl running the World, the politicians are doing what they have been told to do, from the one percent that owns the world economy. We might see a pushback from some of the campaign promises of Trump but expect to see changes, in the global agenda,he (Trump)is a pawn in the scheme of things, his orders come from the 1% and just like all presidents they are a smaller piece to the big picture. So you would be best served my approaching the real power source than Donald Trump he's just following orders. The issue with the election is I believe both parties engaged in dirty politics and mud slinging, however one was more cleaver in pay to play with the electoral college, which happen to be real ppl,that is why that system needs to be eliminated,the popular vote should prevail,the ppl have truly spoken when this happens. Before anyone comes at my reply,please be well research I'm not going to educate you on the obvious facts.
3
I don't think it's ok to normalize trump. These questions don't go deep enough. You can have empathy for Trump voters. But they still need to s plain themselves. This wasn't like last elections. The choice wasn't based on policy. It was choosing an experience be flawed politician over a rapist and a xenophobe.
30
Yes, because having to explain the reasons you voted for a nationalist xenophobe might not sound very good.
3
I am an independent who usually votes for the Democratic Party candidates ( in many cases its a vote against the Republican candidate,) I voted this time for Clinton.
But I have many friends who voted for Trump- they are not racist, bigoted, or misogynistic people, but solid good people who also care deeply about this country. I find the many self righteous, holier than thou attitudes expressed in these comments are disturbing..
But I have many friends who voted for Trump- they are not racist, bigoted, or misogynistic people, but solid good people who also care deeply about this country. I find the many self righteous, holier than thou attitudes expressed in these comments are disturbing..
18
And I find the comments by Trump and his supporter and his follower disturbing
7
On the up side, most Democrats are in for a tax cut, while the poorer Republicans that voted Trump in will likely see Tax increases. Dems also get a bunch of unpopular items pushed through - pipelines and cancelling trade deals. Who knew Republicans would be so liberal?
10
That's one way to look at it. Higher taxed blue states will see tax cuts and the red states feeding at the government teat will have to begin solving their own problems. But increased military spending helps them... oh wait, that's government too. All you neglected and forgotten rust-belt Trump supporters...good luck finding those not-so-high paying manufacturing jobs in Texas, Alabama, Tennessee etc with no health care, no union protections and bargaining rights, no pensions and right-to-work (fire at will).
What people do not understand is if you are living paycheck to paycheck and have the choice between a wildcard or 4 more years of same, you vote wildcard. The DNC offered up a candidate so flawed, so weighted with scandal and baggage, so hated, that I would have lost all faith in Our system had she prevailed.
Blame people who didn't vote for Bernie. Blame people who did not vote. Don't blame people who need jobs, food, and no Russian wars.
Blame people who didn't vote for Bernie. Blame people who did not vote. Don't blame people who need jobs, food, and no Russian wars.
18
Pk, have you noticed recently that the DNC offered up a candidate so flawed, so weighted with scandal and baggage, so hated that she won the popular vote. You would have lost faith in a system rewarding a popular vote. You are looking for a fight like your candidate. Pay your new taxes promptly. We will need your taxes more than you wealthy Republicans. What system does Iowa usually follow in elections in lieu of a popular vote? How does that work for you?
18
I believe the popular vote comes mainly from California. Also, she did not win a majority of the vote, just a plurality. More than 7,000,000 voters did not vote for either of the major party candidates. And of course there is that huge portion of registered voters who did not vote at all. If "none of the above" had been an option, that may have gotten the majority of votes.
1
My uncle is 90 years old and one of the best men I know. He was born and raised in Iowa. He is ashamed of his home state and what they have done to his country with their votes.
5
I see the liberal elite is showing their true colors in this comments section. Forgiveness, understanding, empathy, respectful disagreement - the traits the left claims they have in abundance - magically vanished because they were never there in the first place. Given that the left has used the blue-collar-disappearing-jobs plight as a platform up until Trump to boost their electorate and self-righteousness, it's absolutely disgusting to see that it's all but disappeared from the list of things Democrats claim to care about. Look inward before you judge the working man's issues (job losses) and deem them irrelevant and maybe, from behind your desks and 9 to 5 workweek, you'll have a little empathy.
17
First, I can't see the "disrespectful" comments you claim to. Second, why do you assume the commenters are the "liberal elite"? All I can see is usernames and places. But it seems you "magically" intuit identities too.
The reason people are distraught about this outcome is not that "our side lost", but that the other side decided either that racial hatred and misogyny are just fine and dandy, or that they are willing to accept them as a trade-off for whatever as yet undisclosed primordial greatness the President-elect will shortly be inflicting on the country. A recurring question among blacks, gays and other minorities: "Do they really hate us so much?"
The reason people are distraught about this outcome is not that "our side lost", but that the other side decided either that racial hatred and misogyny are just fine and dandy, or that they are willing to accept them as a trade-off for whatever as yet undisclosed primordial greatness the President-elect will shortly be inflicting on the country. A recurring question among blacks, gays and other minorities: "Do they really hate us so much?"
12
"To just be grossly generalistic, you can put half of Trump supporters into what I call the basket of deplorables,"
"People voting for Trump don't care about the country or others. Why should I engage them in conversation, much less eat or drink with them?"
"These questions do nothing to change the vote of the misguided. You have to get them back to reality. How about 'why did vote for the mad bomber?'"
"I am so upset about this national nightmare that I cannot even look at anyone who voted this horror into office. These folks are unwelcome at my table."
"I have defriended half of my relatives on Facebook for their irrational/illogical support for a demagogue who eventually 'won' the Electoral College."
You're blinding yourself to what you don't what to see, Edward. Trump voters don't like being treated with arrogance, condescension, intolerance, mockery and nastiness anymore than Clinton voters. A recurring question among some of them: "Do they really hate us so much?"
(I didn't vote for either one, just for the record.)
"People voting for Trump don't care about the country or others. Why should I engage them in conversation, much less eat or drink with them?"
"These questions do nothing to change the vote of the misguided. You have to get them back to reality. How about 'why did vote for the mad bomber?'"
"I am so upset about this national nightmare that I cannot even look at anyone who voted this horror into office. These folks are unwelcome at my table."
"I have defriended half of my relatives on Facebook for their irrational/illogical support for a demagogue who eventually 'won' the Electoral College."
You're blinding yourself to what you don't what to see, Edward. Trump voters don't like being treated with arrogance, condescension, intolerance, mockery and nastiness anymore than Clinton voters. A recurring question among some of them: "Do they really hate us so much?"
(I didn't vote for either one, just for the record.)
9
That's because these important qualities you mentioned: tolarerance, empathy, understanding, forgiveness.....were ridiculed by your hero, Trump as being weak and (gasp) politically correct. We learned that what you admire and respect is rude arrogance and hateful rhetoric, so that's what you are getting. I work much more than 9 to 5, and mostly with young children who now (even though they are American citizens) sleep with a packed suitcase by their bed because your leader has promised to deport them along with their families. I'm 100% sure that the jobs their parents are doing (field workers for the most part) were NOT stolen from anybody.....no one else will do them! I'm sorry, but I have plenty to do trying to help them understand why their country hates them and I have no energy left to decipher how you could look past the hate, racism, violence, misogyny and intolerance spewed by your idol.
30
How about this: tolerate the fact that intelligent people can disagree with you; that perfectly respectable people hold a range of ideas different than yours; and that the graceful thing to do after losing an election is to try to learn from it.
The fact that many liberal people can't respect that others may not agree with them across the board, and refuse to listen to them, is exactly why the Democratic Party lost in 2016. Failure to respect a wide range of opinions in a vast and varied country leads to the sort of self-marginalization that put Trump in the White House (despite my Hillary vote).
So keep it up, and maybe the democrats can lose, but be sure they were right, again in 2020.
The fact that many liberal people can't respect that others may not agree with them across the board, and refuse to listen to them, is exactly why the Democratic Party lost in 2016. Failure to respect a wide range of opinions in a vast and varied country leads to the sort of self-marginalization that put Trump in the White House (despite my Hillary vote).
So keep it up, and maybe the democrats can lose, but be sure they were right, again in 2020.
23
Since when has a Republican EVER respected MY viewpoint. I am not going to have this country conversation with any of my Republican family members. It would not end well. And none of my friends are Republican. Case closed.
24
Trump deniers are likely the same people who dismissed white male rural voters. Well, look where that got them.
2
Ooh - Trump deniers - love (not) the new terminology. How about reality deniers for people who voted for Trump?
7
Maybe you could put yourself in this theoretical position:
You are a true faithful Democrat.
The Democrats have nominated someone just awful. Perhaps the person who somehow won the nomination is
genuinely anti Semitic or admires left wing violence and you could see this person condoning attacks on Jews in other countries, although you don't see how they would have the power to do that themselves. You do worry they won't vigorously prosecute hate crimes against Jews.
But, the Republican candidate is promising to pack the supreme court for a generation. They are promising all the Republican policies you hate: trickle down, tax cuts for the wealthy, protection for big oil, all the reasons you would never vote Republican..
It's a serious thought experiment. Who do you vote for, their candidate or yours?
For those who don't see it, I'm trying to enter the mind of a staunch Republican faced with voting Clinton or Trump.
You are a true faithful Democrat.
The Democrats have nominated someone just awful. Perhaps the person who somehow won the nomination is
genuinely anti Semitic or admires left wing violence and you could see this person condoning attacks on Jews in other countries, although you don't see how they would have the power to do that themselves. You do worry they won't vigorously prosecute hate crimes against Jews.
But, the Republican candidate is promising to pack the supreme court for a generation. They are promising all the Republican policies you hate: trickle down, tax cuts for the wealthy, protection for big oil, all the reasons you would never vote Republican..
It's a serious thought experiment. Who do you vote for, their candidate or yours?
For those who don't see it, I'm trying to enter the mind of a staunch Republican faced with voting Clinton or Trump.
11
I, for one, can in all honesty say I would vote for the Republican in your scenario, despite being a lifelong Democrat and a liberal Democrat at that. Why? Well, first, because bigotry is far less a feature of the American Left than it is of the American Right, so I am likely to be more repulsed by it than would many on the Right. (Just going by observation here: to me an endorsement by the KKK is a game-stopper; to Trump supporters, apparently not so much.) Secondly, and more importantly, (and to keep the scenario relevant this condition needs to be specified), the Democrat in your thought experiment has to be threatening the rules of our political system itself. That is the real danger in Trump. In his campaign, he encouraged threats against people who disagreed with him. He threatened to jail his opponents. Two weeks after the election he is already claiming he should be exempt from rules that have applied to all other modern Presidents. The success of Mr. Trump represents a step further down the road that has led to the collapse of modern democracies elsewhere. If any Democrat betrayed the contempt for our political process that Mr. Trump has; and that, frankly, the Republican Party in general has seemed quite comfortable with these last two decades; I would not hesitate one second to vote for a Republican who supported our process.
2
I really appreciate this list of questions and also the intent behind it. I think being able to talk to each other, and hear each other, is so important and it is hard to do when emotions run high and the topic is important. I've listened to most of the first conversation on the run up, and I was really struck by the thoughtfulness of the two men talking. I hope your list helps many more people connect and really hear each other at this difficult time in our national life.
10
A more useful approach is, "let's talk about something other than politics. Have you heard from Cousin Sue lately?..."
There's a reason why, during normal times, etiquette experts advise that politics, religion and money are not suitable topics in most polite company. And in the current NOT normal times, this is even more true.
There's a reason why, during normal times, etiquette experts advise that politics, religion and money are not suitable topics in most polite company. And in the current NOT normal times, this is even more true.
41
If you cant talk about these things with family then why even bother. Blood doesnt make someone worthy.
1
I think this would be a great blueprint for a conversation with another rational, thinking person. But I don't think that is what many of us are dealing with... we are dealing with people who have ignored facts and overlooked grievous infractions of established social mores so that they could cling to some false hope. We are dealing with BELIEFS, which tend to be impervious to rational thought.
Also, I think we are dealing with what I would call "entrenched racist tendencies"....Most of these folks don't believe themselves to be racist because they wouldn't use the "N" word, or spit on someone, or get up in someone of color's face and threaten them, but they are quick to blame the "Other" for their own lot in life, their own frustrations and financial woes. THIS is the Kool-Aid we've all been drinking... that somehow we are no longer a racist nation.
Also, I think we are dealing with what I would call "entrenched racist tendencies"....Most of these folks don't believe themselves to be racist because they wouldn't use the "N" word, or spit on someone, or get up in someone of color's face and threaten them, but they are quick to blame the "Other" for their own lot in life, their own frustrations and financial woes. THIS is the Kool-Aid we've all been drinking... that somehow we are no longer a racist nation.
28
“entrenched racist tendencies”? That is an illogical phrase considering the same American electorate elected Barack Obama twice in the last eight years. Policy matters and unfortunately, the “Hope and Change” that was promised in 2008 never happened for the majority of the electorate. I refer you to this NYTimes article reflecting this: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/many-in-milwaukee-neighborhood-didn...
In a Sanders-Trump matchup, Sanders would have won every rust-belt state that Hillary Clinton lost. This media-driven concocted “race issue” would not exist. The democrats need to accept they simply chose the wrong candidate.
In a Sanders-Trump matchup, Sanders would have won every rust-belt state that Hillary Clinton lost. This media-driven concocted “race issue” would not exist. The democrats need to accept they simply chose the wrong candidate.
My husband and I just went through these on our Thanksgiving road trip. It took three hours but It was very useful in helping us find closure after the election. Now we can enjoy the festivities!
6
Enjoy your "closure" (probably my least favorite word on the English language) as the environment & the rights of people of color & LGBTQ's go down the tubes in the next 4 years.
9
Hopefully Ted Cruz will get on the Supreme Court too. He will help undo all the damage the marxists have done the past 30-40 years.
1
I worked for Bernie Sanders and could never have stooped to voting for a return of the Clintons as the latest puppets to dance for the Deep State.
Knowing full well how much support there is for our present day investor capitalism, it would be interesting to see how many in the Investor class who voted for Hillary in their primaries might have voted for Trump in a Sanders-Trump contest.
Knowing full well how much support there is for our present day investor capitalism, it would be interesting to see how many in the Investor class who voted for Hillary in their primaries might have voted for Trump in a Sanders-Trump contest.
4
Thank you for characterizing us who did vote for Clinton in the face of the apocalyptic horror of Trump as "stooping so low" oh wise one can you tell me more about how misguided I was/am ?
16
Thanks for the tips but I am not planning to talk to them ever!
20
Best not to say anything. It's just too raw.
13
Thank you! This is just what I was l looking for. Being willing and able to talk about what's going on is an important first step.
5
What an amazingly arrogant piece of trash. Believe it or not, rational people can have an opinion at is different than yours. continuing to push this "trump voters are stupid and must be despised" agenda will continue to destroy our country.
12
@John: I don't believe "Trump voters are stupid" - BUT I would like you to tell me the correct word to use for people who believed EVERYTHING Trump has said, including all his flip-flops on so many issues? I am a rational person and I find Trump to be like a used-car salesman: he will say whatever he thinks it will take to make the sale. None of what he says needs to be true, he doesn't need to believe in any of it; he just wants to make the sale.
Well, now he's made the sale - so again, what is the correct word to use for people who believed his every word?
And what am I to make of people who scream, as if they were ancient Romans at the Colosseum, "jail her!" "kill her!" and "deport them!"?? Trump has promised bread & circuses. What he delivers remains to be seen. But I am very depressed that so many people in this country believe that the used-car salesman is *really* their friend who has only their needs at heart.
Well, now he's made the sale - so again, what is the correct word to use for people who believed his every word?
And what am I to make of people who scream, as if they were ancient Romans at the Colosseum, "jail her!" "kill her!" and "deport them!"?? Trump has promised bread & circuses. What he delivers remains to be seen. But I am very depressed that so many people in this country believe that the used-car salesman is *really* their friend who has only their needs at heart.
1
1. Describe your relationship to me.
We are in-laws.
2. Are we close?
Not particularly.
3. Who did I vote for and why?
I voted for Clinton, who has three decades of experience in federal policy issues. You voted for Trump, who is utterly ignorant about federal policy and law.
4. What was the most important issue for me?
Competence in governing our nation by combating climate change, achieving more equal individual incomes, and evening the playing field by preventing Wall Street fraud and abuses.
We are in-laws.
2. Are we close?
Not particularly.
3. Who did I vote for and why?
I voted for Clinton, who has three decades of experience in federal policy issues. You voted for Trump, who is utterly ignorant about federal policy and law.
4. What was the most important issue for me?
Competence in governing our nation by combating climate change, achieving more equal individual incomes, and evening the playing field by preventing Wall Street fraud and abuses.
26
Sorry. There is no way to wave away hate with some greeting card theatrics and feel-good fuzziness. Here's how the conversation should really go:
Person A: why did you vote Trump?
Person B: because fear and misplaced rage, fed to me by a broken media machine and consumed without a semblance of critical thinking, led me to believe that an inexperienced authoritarian of highly questionable character would make life easier for people like me at the expense of people not like me.
Person A: our values are too opposite for us to be friends
Person B: I agree
Person A: why did you vote Trump?
Person B: because fear and misplaced rage, fed to me by a broken media machine and consumed without a semblance of critical thinking, led me to believe that an inexperienced authoritarian of highly questionable character would make life easier for people like me at the expense of people not like me.
Person A: our values are too opposite for us to be friends
Person B: I agree
36
I think this is the best response I've read. Unfortunately, some of these opposed voters are married to one another and have children. A better article would be "How to Explain to Our Children. "
6
Grow up peeps! How many presidents have strode into office with grand plans only to see them never come close to reality? Trump is so desperate for people to staff out his administration that it should be easy for Democrats to infiltrate those ranks and temper any stupid ideas he may try to put forward. I did not vote for Clinton. I did not vote for Trump. My candidate lost and now it's time to move forward. The best part of the election has been watching the reaction to it all!
13
*stridden
2
"You would never hire someone for your business who was as lacking in qualifications for the position as that man is for the White House...and yet you gave him the most important job in the country. Please explain."
95
Obviously written from a liberal view. How about "are 11,000,000 illegal aliens more important to you than our relationship?"
27
No, but bigotry is.
19
Eleven million was another inflated figure from the inflated figure. he's already backtracking on a lot of what he spouted during the late unpleasantness. Uh, remember the Kenyan president scam?
The Romans said all that was needed to keep the people happy was bread and circuses. Step right up. folks.
The Romans said all that was needed to keep the people happy was bread and circuses. Step right up. folks.
10
The suggested Q & A session can be summarized as "I think you're an idiot, but do you still love me?"
This world is a rough and tumble place and these nauseous suggestions would make my family wonder if I'm on drugs. Hey, we love each other and that's not changing just because we try to defend whichever imperious fool received our vote.
This world is a rough and tumble place and these nauseous suggestions would make my family wonder if I'm on drugs. Hey, we love each other and that's not changing just because we try to defend whichever imperious fool received our vote.
26
what kind of ridiculous question is: do you still like me? I am not sure that I would care whether you do or not. Clearly family are stuck with me. And friends are not forever no matter what the poets say.
19
How to have a rational conversation with an irrational person would be more helpful.
74
A lot of the hateful comments about Trump supporters below indicate that the writers need to stand in front of the mirror when contemplating that question.
10
I will keep reading (and paying for) The New York Times just for the readers. Michael Barbaro, however, wrote this piece as if he has been living under a rock somewhere (sorry). People voting for Trump don't care about the country or others. Why should I engage them in conversation, much less eat or drink with them?
I know 4 Trump voters (who have admitted it) and suspect others (who won't). 1). African American man, successful, intelligent (I used to think), reason: "I always vote republican. Better for the country". 2) POC 1st generation immigrant South Asian (not in danger of deportation) Reason: "Trump will make America great again. Muslims are dangerous. Blacks are bad and we need stop and frisk to end crime. (He didn't realize what the mirror was telling him -- he is black skinned in fact). Women are too weak to rule a country. Clinton is so crooked (his facebook told him so)". 3) white male, ex in-law "Clinton will take our guns. Clinton is crooked. MAGA. (Gets his news from facebook). It was just locker room talk". 4). White female. Catholic. Educated. Upper middle class. Reason: "I never vote for a particular person. He is pro life. That's what matters to me. The Pope endorsed him. (When asked about the misogyny and racism) I believe God will bless the country."
I know 4 Trump voters (who have admitted it) and suspect others (who won't). 1). African American man, successful, intelligent (I used to think), reason: "I always vote republican. Better for the country". 2) POC 1st generation immigrant South Asian (not in danger of deportation) Reason: "Trump will make America great again. Muslims are dangerous. Blacks are bad and we need stop and frisk to end crime. (He didn't realize what the mirror was telling him -- he is black skinned in fact). Women are too weak to rule a country. Clinton is so crooked (his facebook told him so)". 3) white male, ex in-law "Clinton will take our guns. Clinton is crooked. MAGA. (Gets his news from facebook). It was just locker room talk". 4). White female. Catholic. Educated. Upper middle class. Reason: "I never vote for a particular person. He is pro life. That's what matters to me. The Pope endorsed him. (When asked about the misogyny and racism) I believe God will bless the country."
51
Actually, the notion that the Pope endorsed the fascist is fake news, not true. :/
10
I know one of those No 7's. She is devoutly Catholic, a committed pro-lifer because (she says) of her religious convictions. But when the Pope said that Trump "wasn't a Christian", she chose to ignore his thoughts. Giving new meaning to the term "cafeteria Catholic."
10
It's always interesting when people use terms like "intelligent" or "articulate" when describing African-Americans. And these are typically people who don't think they are at all prejudiced. I think we all have to be careful, left and right, in how we view different groups.
6
My answer to this Thanksgiving dilemma is to stay home - happily sealed in my cozy liberal bubble.
23
Is this tongue-in-cheek? If so, thanks for the laugh. You could write for a comedy show.
22
It's sad to me, but it's also clear why Mr. Trump was elected to head this country. In brief, he is a screen personality with a 140 character attention span. Look closely at the values championed by television and the media. In our post-modern world this is the primary mechanism by which our culture is transmitted. In Jane Austin's day it was the novel; today it's your TV, tablet or phone. The 4 to 5 thousand seemingly desperate consumer ads we are peppered with each day purport to tell us our story. We're exhorted to "Ask your doctor!" and they even let us know how much money we "saved by shopping here today". Companies where our dad's and mom's worked, and where we shopped are absorbed into the big box, all-in-one, market where people go to eat, shop and spend more than they have. Why not elect a carnival barker whose mantra is 'You can just say (or do) anything you want if you're a star.'? Let's face it, folks, that sounds pretty good to me. He's living large. He's also frightened. We can hang on to the possibility that the office will change the man. But I doubt that; I believe that in Mr. Trump we got exactly the mess we all are swimming in, and for now he continues to provide his own brand of entertainment.
21
I am so upset about this national nightmare that I cannot even look at anyone who voted this horror into office. These folks are unwelcome at my table. If at anytime in the near or distant future I hear a complaint about how their health insurance is gone, their gay child is criminalized, their pregnant grandchild needs an abortion, their disabled chld is bullied in school, their daughter is demeaned or sexually harassed (I can go on) my first questions will be ....Did you vote? Who did you vote for? Deal with it.
60
"I cannot even look at anyone who voted this horror into office." Ouch. That'll make for a difficult 4 years, looking only at every other person!
5
Reading through these comments is saddening. I'll be blunt. If you define your relationships by who they voted for in an election, your priorities are severely misaligned. Seriously.
23
It isn't about who you voted for per se, it is about whether you voted for bigotry.
11
This is the textbook definition of an ideologue. Force everyone with whom you associate to take an ideological litmus test. Banish those who fail. When you are faced with the fact that a majority of the country is too many to banish, condemn and dismiss them.
Needless to say, ieologues are never great dinner guests.
Needless to say, ieologues are never great dinner guests.
5
All jokes and angry rhetoric aside, I think we want to have these conversations, not to make peace, but to better know the enemy so we can infiltrate and spy in order to do better next time.
Because let's face it, as the results attest, even if they are questionable they show that we need to do better next time. And if they were easily manipulated by rump, perhaps we can manipulate them too.
Because let's face it, as the results attest, even if they are questionable they show that we need to do better next time. And if they were easily manipulated by rump, perhaps we can manipulate them too.
14
This may work in a freshman political science discussion group, but it a ridiculous idea for a family holiday dinner. 1. I want to enjoy my food and drink -- without puking 2. I really do not care what any Trump supporting family members think about Clinton or my vote. They had their chance so let them live with the results -- which we. SN discuss in s few years. 3. If they think he is more qualified or fit after seeing three debates, they are slower or more prejudiced than I realized. 4. I really do not care one iota why they think the way they do. I'd rather discuss the weather. 5. They have four years to watch their guy in action. I hope they are happy with the creeps he is appointing and proud of their votes when they or their children's children wonder why they let this jerk in the WH. PS. If they read this article and ask any if these questions, I'm picking up my food and going into another room where I can eat and digest my food in peace. Try another theme for your article.
44
Ridiculous, there's enough to fight about over the holidays without adding politics. Put this poison aside for one meal and be grateful if you have heat, a roof over your head, and food and guests at your table. Better yet, volunteer at a soup kitchen or shelter and put the talk of helping others less fortunate into action.
29
These questions do nothing to change the vote of the misguided. You have to get them back to reality. How about 'why did vote for the mad bomber?'
13
I know from many years of living where I do, that the only way I can remain in peaceful relationships with the community of people I live among, is to never discuss politics. Ever.
6
It's a no-win situation for everyone. My nucler family has been heavily involved in right-wing politics since Goldwater '64 (some even cheered when Kennedy was assassinated in 1963), and they campaigned for Reagan in '68, '76, and especially in 1980 and 1984. They voted every Bush. To quote the lyrics from "Evita": "And no dissent from within." Different opinions were not welcomed then, and they are certainly not welcomed now. I have defriends half of my relatives on Facebook for their irriational/illogical support for a demagogue who eventually "won" the Electoral Colege. (Shades of 2000!). There isn't any point in discussing the state of the Onion - er, Union - right now. It's pointless. They have their mind up. They are Right. You are Wrong. Case Closed. Welcome to the 21st century America.
15
NO ONE needs to share how one voted in any election, with someone who asks. Even if that information is shared, no one need "defend" that vote or choice. It is ones choice to make. In the 13 Presidential elections in which I have voted, I've not asked another how or why another voted. It quite simply is none of my business.
What gives those who supported Hillary the right to question someone who voted for Trump? Why must one try to convince the questioner that one is not a racist, or sexist or any other "ist" of which one is accused?
Frankly, I'm quite tired of all these accusations and the belief of others that I must justify my vote. I certainly don't ask them to justify theirs.
What gives those who supported Hillary the right to question someone who voted for Trump? Why must one try to convince the questioner that one is not a racist, or sexist or any other "ist" of which one is accused?
Frankly, I'm quite tired of all these accusations and the belief of others that I must justify my vote. I certainly don't ask them to justify theirs.
17
How about this: one candidate said, vote for me and it will be nothing like the last eight years. The other said: vote for me and it will be exactly like the last eight years. Many rational, well-meaning voters for whom the last eight years had been a disaster decided that they would rather vote for Donald Trump, flawed as he is, than continue on the same path.
I voted for Hillary. Maybe we should look at why our candidate lost before we blame the side that won.
And spare me the nonsense about the popular vote unless you can show (you can't) that Trump would have lost the popular vote if he had been trying to win it.
I voted for Hillary. Maybe we should look at why our candidate lost before we blame the side that won.
And spare me the nonsense about the popular vote unless you can show (you can't) that Trump would have lost the popular vote if he had been trying to win it.
24
Finally a reasonable analysis. Hopefully there are enough people on both sides Who prefer reason and clear communication and compassion to crass triumphalism, whiny grievance or name calling.
5
We are doing just the opposite. As a family of democrats and republicans, we've agreed we all have better things to talk about (and to argue about). The subject of politics is off limits.
When I look at the pie chart that makes up my thoughts and cares, family will always take up a much larger portion than politics.
When I look at the pie chart that makes up my thoughts and cares, family will always take up a much larger portion than politics.
13
We took this vow last week , including all invited guests. No politics at dinner table. Topics too hot. My youngest sister and I, after shouting at each other for weeks every time we talked (she strongly disliked Clinton and I felt she had gone over to the dark side) agreed to focus on forgiveness and healing for our family and community. Big job since everyone is so upset. But we're giving it a go. .
2
My answer, where anyone belligerent or rude enough to INTERROGATE me about how I voted or who for...would be "this is why we have secret ballots in the USA".
16
Whenever someone asks my dad who he voted for, he replies "the Constitution says I don't have to tell you."
6
Thank you concerned citizen -the behavior of colleagues, so called friends and many people in general post election has truly shocked and saddened me -there is just no respect for others anymore -I think there has been a slow decline in civility for some time now --the post election storm just confirms this
2
Fully two-thirds of white voters without college degrees voted for Donald Trump, as did over 80 percent of white evangelicals.
(I pasted this from a recent NYT article).
It can be difficult to have an open conversation with "low information" folks, and those who vote based on religious dogma. Mix those two, and a healthy interaction can be impossible.
(I pasted this from a recent NYT article).
It can be difficult to have an open conversation with "low information" folks, and those who vote based on religious dogma. Mix those two, and a healthy interaction can be impossible.
34
So true. A sincerely Christian family I've known for decades is now no longer speaking because the evangelical Christian family members (Trump voters) believe the Democratic Party is "un-Christian" for its acceptance of LGBT and abortion, therefore Clinton voters are un-Christian. And the family members that voted Clinton think the evangelical Christians compromised their integrity by voting for an adulterous bigot. How do you get a healthy interaction in a family like that?
2
Other than the winning candidate's genius level manipulation of voters with all manner of scandalous talk, the catnip of racism and a bellicose, dumbfoundingly crude manner, we in fact don't KNOW what will play out in the next year or four, and if we value our country, we should not wish for the worst. That is what the venal opposition did when Obama won.
One can only hope the new administration will be counter intuitive. But hope we must.
One can only hope the new administration will be counter intuitive. But hope we must.
13
Um, no thanks, trump is dangerous and I would rather we gave them the same opposition they gave Obama. We shouldn't be wimps. Cooperative is the last thing we should be.
17
Or:
1. Is climate change a hoax? 2. Is it ok to make fun of a disabled person? 3. Is the Access Hollywood tape appalling? 4. Is it ok to say a judge cannot decide a case fairly because of his Mexican heritage? 5. Do you know any Muslim people? 6. Is choosing a thrice-married serial adulterer consistent with Christian values? 7. Do you care that if abortion is illegal, many women will die? 8. Are you bothered by Trump’s refusal to release his tax returns? 9. Are you concerned that his refusal to divulge his business interests will impact foreign policy in ways we will not understand due to this refusal? 10. Are you worried that if Trump pulls away from traditional alliances the world will be more dangerous? 11. Are you disappointed that Trump has not disavowed the emboldened alt-right? 12. Are you bothered by the prospect of Trump’s children advising him and concerned that he is not putting his business into a true blind trust? 13. Do you find it ironic that Billy Bush and Roger Ailes lost their jobs? 14. What will the economic impact of deporting millions of people be? 15. Are you concerned that Russia probably influenced the outcome of our election? 16. Are the indicators that show the economy is improving false? 17. Do you think it was right for Republicans to refuse to consider Garland’s nomination and threaten not to fill Scalia’s seat were Clinton elected? 18. Is there such a thing as a fact? 19. Could Trump do anything that would make you disavow him?
1. Is climate change a hoax? 2. Is it ok to make fun of a disabled person? 3. Is the Access Hollywood tape appalling? 4. Is it ok to say a judge cannot decide a case fairly because of his Mexican heritage? 5. Do you know any Muslim people? 6. Is choosing a thrice-married serial adulterer consistent with Christian values? 7. Do you care that if abortion is illegal, many women will die? 8. Are you bothered by Trump’s refusal to release his tax returns? 9. Are you concerned that his refusal to divulge his business interests will impact foreign policy in ways we will not understand due to this refusal? 10. Are you worried that if Trump pulls away from traditional alliances the world will be more dangerous? 11. Are you disappointed that Trump has not disavowed the emboldened alt-right? 12. Are you bothered by the prospect of Trump’s children advising him and concerned that he is not putting his business into a true blind trust? 13. Do you find it ironic that Billy Bush and Roger Ailes lost their jobs? 14. What will the economic impact of deporting millions of people be? 15. Are you concerned that Russia probably influenced the outcome of our election? 16. Are the indicators that show the economy is improving false? 17. Do you think it was right for Republicans to refuse to consider Garland’s nomination and threaten not to fill Scalia’s seat were Clinton elected? 18. Is there such a thing as a fact? 19. Could Trump do anything that would make you disavow him?
51
Brilliant!
3
Best to not discuss politics or religion with relatives whom you know has different preferences than you. So-o-o much else to discuss. Treasure your family and learn what interests them or excites them. Leave politics and religion on a high shelf.
Do you think discussing politics with anyone who does not share your preferences actually changes how the other person thinks? Answer: Rarely.
Do you think discussing politics with anyone who does not share your preferences actually changes how the other person thinks? Answer: Rarely.
4
All good intentions acknowledged, this article is at best either coated with a fine veneer of caramel holiday glaze....with a cherry on top...., or at worst a certifiable four-Advil hangover with counterproductive lingering consequences.
Question #11 is the most egregious. The title of Sexist or Racist is earned with nothing to do with intent! It is equally earned by actively doing something detrimental to "one of those people" or by silently winking, nodding and agreeing with it having been done to "them". Setting a cross afire on someone's lawn is absolutely equivalent to looking out the window and benignly informing one's partner there's a fire across the street.
Do yourself a favor: if it's come to the point where a relationship of any kind (marital, familial, propinquital, occupational, et.al.) needs be explored with such innocuous and saccarine probings, that relationship is DOA and needs be divested of.
Sorry to rain on the parade, but this one left the station left the station long ago and like the jobs Trump is going to bring back to this country that are being done by robots elsewhere, it ain't happenin'....it's a done deal.
FIDO (Forget It; Move On).
Question #11 is the most egregious. The title of Sexist or Racist is earned with nothing to do with intent! It is equally earned by actively doing something detrimental to "one of those people" or by silently winking, nodding and agreeing with it having been done to "them". Setting a cross afire on someone's lawn is absolutely equivalent to looking out the window and benignly informing one's partner there's a fire across the street.
Do yourself a favor: if it's come to the point where a relationship of any kind (marital, familial, propinquital, occupational, et.al.) needs be explored with such innocuous and saccarine probings, that relationship is DOA and needs be divested of.
Sorry to rain on the parade, but this one left the station left the station long ago and like the jobs Trump is going to bring back to this country that are being done by robots elsewhere, it ain't happenin'....it's a done deal.
FIDO (Forget It; Move On).
6
Well lets see according to the creatures appointments to the White House staff, Justice and CIA so far I would say that every hateful, racist, misogynistic, xenophobic bigoted thing the creature said during the campaign is going to be expedited. Why would I want to be "Reasonable " with the type of person who as far as I was concerned was an anomaly in this country let alone voted for someone who supports that hatred?. Silly me! A rude awakening indeed!
10
I was going to go home to the Midwest at Christmas but have decided against it now. At the the best of times I feel devalued and marginalized being the only Democrat in the family but we usually don't discuss politics because I speak up and defend myself if things get racist or sexist. I'm also a lifelong vegetarian and they still think it's hilarious to sneak meat into the salad or vegetable dish during the holidays. Now that it's okay to be openly racist and sexist I have no desire to go there. Ever at the moment but I know I will eventually because I do love some of them. I had some conversations before election day as to why they were in support of Trump. Literally every single one said, "It's because Trump is less corrupt than Hillary." That is what they tell me but I know they are happy that their private bigot and sexist views are being validated in such a big way so they can openly express themselves and I will have no one but myself to defend against this hate. I have been fighting against this mind set my entire life within my own family but now I feel so disheartened that so much of this country feels the way my family does. How will I ever get past this and open my heart to them? I have no idea right now. I will try in the coming months but I have had a permanent stomach ache since the election.
26
If your family thinks that "Trump is LESS corrupt than Hillary" ... shouldn't you be glad they voted for him ... ? Otherwise, who knows what they might try to force feed you this Thanksgiving.
I love asking questions of Trump voters. Here's some of the ones I asked:
When I realized a woman I was dating was going to vote for Trump, I asked her: "I'm done with you - when can you get your stuff?"
When I realized my brother was going to vote for Trump, I asked him: "When are you going to pay me back the $3000 you owe me?" (I'm still waiting, but at least he hasn't asked for any more :)
When a guy at work told me he voted for Trump, I asked him: "Did you still want me to watch your dog over Thanksgiving? Because I can't do it now. Because I'm super busy."
This is just my way of promoting understanding and making the world just a smidge better place. The more you do it, the easier it gets.
When I realized a woman I was dating was going to vote for Trump, I asked her: "I'm done with you - when can you get your stuff?"
When I realized my brother was going to vote for Trump, I asked him: "When are you going to pay me back the $3000 you owe me?" (I'm still waiting, but at least he hasn't asked for any more :)
When a guy at work told me he voted for Trump, I asked him: "Did you still want me to watch your dog over Thanksgiving? Because I can't do it now. Because I'm super busy."
This is just my way of promoting understanding and making the world just a smidge better place. The more you do it, the easier it gets.
42
Really, you wasted ink on this subject. Why not talk about how the Trump presidency is going to effect couples, rather than focusing on what people imagine? Instead of speculating or backtracking, be real. Trump has the potential to be very dangerous for families, and the Times should not be spending the time on frivolous reporting.
4
Just does absolutely nothing to make thanksgiving, where nobody voted Trump, any easier because voting Hillary to me is just as meaningless and regressive to me even though I did just that.
4
I'm mad at the democrat party for running a candidate in the general election who was flawed beyond belief. A candidate I could never support. So I voted for the alternative.
I hope the democrats use this opportunity to honestly figure out why they lost and find NEW people to lead us into the future. Then only will they earn my vote.
I hope the democrats use this opportunity to honestly figure out why they lost and find NEW people to lead us into the future. Then only will they earn my vote.
11
I'm a Democrat. I'm pretty sure I know why we lost. If you write off a large swath of America as "deplorables" of course they will resent you, and they will show it. That's why we lost.
8
No one is more flawed than Donald.
11
Hannah W, compare Hillary's "deplorables" comment (which really referenced white supremacists) to Trump's multiple insults that purposely and directly maligned large swaths of people. There is no comparison really, yet Trump was allowed to continue on unscathed.
5
My gut reaction every day when I wake up in the morning now is horror and sickening disbelief, followed by despair because it's not a dream. It's a living nightmare.
I cannot and will not forgive the 61,336,159 suckers who were born the minute he was officially declared the winner. I am enraged at the breadth and scope of delusional rationalization by these people; their hypocrisy leaves me speechless.
No, I will not aquiesce. I will not oblige. I will not join in the rationalization and blatant acceptance as normal of such bigotry, misogyny, racism, nationalism, sexism, criminal assault, fraud, serial lying, adultery, and unfettered, punitive hatred from this awful excuse of a man. Nope.
The Trump supporters get exactly what they deserve; unfortunately, the rest of us get what they deserve, too, and right now it's looking like it's going to be pretty bad. I believe we will again be attacked by terrorists, that the Supreme Court will decimate 100 years of hard fought, often bloody wars on progress, and that this preening flim flamming snake oil salesman will have us involved in a war in no time that will be fought by the sons and daughter of the people who elected him.
I can't imagine, based on his appointments to date, that this is going to go well, and I doubt I will ever be able to forgive anyone I know who voted for this pisher and what he stands for. You cannot separate the man from his words and deeds. They are equally despicable.
I cannot and will not forgive the 61,336,159 suckers who were born the minute he was officially declared the winner. I am enraged at the breadth and scope of delusional rationalization by these people; their hypocrisy leaves me speechless.
No, I will not aquiesce. I will not oblige. I will not join in the rationalization and blatant acceptance as normal of such bigotry, misogyny, racism, nationalism, sexism, criminal assault, fraud, serial lying, adultery, and unfettered, punitive hatred from this awful excuse of a man. Nope.
The Trump supporters get exactly what they deserve; unfortunately, the rest of us get what they deserve, too, and right now it's looking like it's going to be pretty bad. I believe we will again be attacked by terrorists, that the Supreme Court will decimate 100 years of hard fought, often bloody wars on progress, and that this preening flim flamming snake oil salesman will have us involved in a war in no time that will be fought by the sons and daughter of the people who elected him.
I can't imagine, based on his appointments to date, that this is going to go well, and I doubt I will ever be able to forgive anyone I know who voted for this pisher and what he stands for. You cannot separate the man from his words and deeds. They are equally despicable.
45
Sorry, not going to happen. It doesn't make any difference how you approach the conversation or attempt to frame a thoughtful discussion. It's like talking to a brick wall; literally, in this case.
7
The acute hysteria and refusal to even try bridge the gap in some sort of constructive fashion (discourse?? Gasp!) evident amongst the comments here is such a rich showcase of hypocrisy. Keep swimming in your bubble, folks - THAT will probably help. As a Trump supporter [who reads the NYTimes! Oh, the shocking novelty!], I found these questions refreshing: try me!
13
I voted for Hillary and the rabid insistence from other Hillary voters that "you can't talk to those people/Trump voters" is just astounding.
I have family and co-workers who voted for Trump and although I disagree with their choice, I refuse to hate them or write them off. At the end of the day we have to live and work together, or we are truly lost.
I have family and co-workers who voted for Trump and although I disagree with their choice, I refuse to hate them or write them off. At the end of the day we have to live and work together, or we are truly lost.
9
Reading the Reader's Picks for this article has cheered me up immensely. I love these people.
44
Who needs the Onion when you have the unintentionally self satirizing mainstream media that we have?
9
The time for talk is over.
The Neo Cons, fascists and racists being appointed to be cabinet guarantees one thing - a war in the next two years.
It's only a question of how broad; starting in the Middle East, spreading to North Korea, maybe to Russia and China
The Neo Cons, fascists and racists being appointed to be cabinet guarantees one thing - a war in the next two years.
It's only a question of how broad; starting in the Middle East, spreading to North Korea, maybe to Russia and China
28
Have you taken a look at the right wing appointees? I guarantee you that we will be in a major conflict abroad and one against our own people here within the 1st 6 months of a Trump presidency. Make your travel plans now. The world is on fire. And we can thank greed and hate and ignorance. Why in the world would we want a Trump supporter anywhere oneself or one's family? I can think of no good reason.
26
The idea of having the sort of conversation put forth in this piece merely replicates the same false equivalents between the candidates and the media coverage that were in evidence throughout the campaign. In past elections, I was able to move beyond the opposing votes. Not this time. This election is so qualitatively different as to render that impossible, morally, psychically and physically.
67
I agree. My feeling on those people in my life who put us all so squarely in harm's way is: If you voted for Trump, you're dead to me. And when Climate Change revs up in a big way, I hope Florida goes first.
9
For the first time ever this year my husband and I are splitting up for Thanksgiving--he's going to be with his family and I'm staying here with mine due to a variety of factors. My FIL is a cranky old white Republican who absolutely loathes Hillary Clinton. He's the only one in the family, and he likes to push people's buttons. I feel so badly for my husband, and so VERY grateful I won't be there.
42
I know some friends and relatives who went the other way. But thankfully, I'm not close enough to any of them to care why. I can still eat turkey with them without breaking out in hives. The ones I loved the most voted my way, so I don't have a crisis of conscience, thank God!!
Unfortunately, it will be some time before the results of this election pan out in concrete results one way or another. Until then, we just have to take things day by day.
Unfortunately, it will be some time before the results of this election pan out in concrete results one way or another. Until then, we just have to take things day by day.
6
Well, contrary to most people on here, I'm launching a FB group called "Cal-Tucky". The first two members will be me (a gay male Hillary supporter from Los Angeles) and my friend Emily (a conservative Christian / Trump supporter from Kentucky). We are going to try and talk to each other. I'm going to ask her questions, and really listen to her answers. I'll offer the chance to do the same. With time, we'll invite a few other people - a few on my "side", a few on hers. We will take a deep breath and try to understand each other's point of view -- even if we could not agree with it in a million years. That's my approach. Call me whatever. And don't think for a moment that I won't lay down my life for the rights of my fellow compatriots, when the time comes.
21
19 question? Ridiculous. Naive. A morally bankrupt and psychologically unstable person has been elected President of the United States. Every Trump voter, third-party protest voter, eligible voters that chose to abstain as a sign of protest and eligible voters who were too lazy to exercise their right now own this disaster of an election. I will work to diminish the negative consequences that this election will produce but I will not try to understand nor lessen the regrets of those who made Trump's election possible.
95
Were you one of those who, anticipating Hillary's coronation, wrote on these very pages that the right and it's Trump supporters would just have to accept the outcome without complaint?
5
No, unlike the President-elect, I have never advocated stifling civil dissent. My mistake was that I put too much trust in the goodness and intelligence of my fellow citizens, believing in my heart and never doubting that a significant majority of voters would clearly reject Trump. I will remain civil in tone when I believe dissent is needed and will be supportive if/when Mr Trump advocates policies and programs that expand opportunity, protect our Country and advance the ideals upon which our Country was founded.
4
The following comes from a blog post on "Gin and tacos.com", by the blogger, "Ed", I recommend the entire article, "The Letdown":
"Many people subscribe to a school of thought called "optimism,"... and they like to believe that their fellow man is fundamentally good. They believe that when presented with a racist demagogue who does not even go through the motions of pretending like he has a plan or knows what he is doing, they will not fall for it. Being people of character and decency, they will say "This charlatan is offensive in every way and we should be embarrassed even to be considering him." People would like to believe that the American public could not elevate to the White House a candidate who is openly racist, xenophobic, and misogynistic, because that would imply that millions of the people we share this society with are those three things or at least possessing sufficient moral cowardice to overlook those qualities in a candidate...."
"...That's why people cried on Wednesday and on Election night. (...) But we wanted to believe that our neighbors, our families, our fellow citizens were better than this, and now we can't. We know now going forward that we can never give the people we share this country with the benefit of doubt or tell ourselves that they are kind, decent people who could Never Do Such Things. We have seen them do it. We know better now. It is not a pretty thing to see when hope dies and is replaced by hard, cold mental armor."
"Many people subscribe to a school of thought called "optimism,"... and they like to believe that their fellow man is fundamentally good. They believe that when presented with a racist demagogue who does not even go through the motions of pretending like he has a plan or knows what he is doing, they will not fall for it. Being people of character and decency, they will say "This charlatan is offensive in every way and we should be embarrassed even to be considering him." People would like to believe that the American public could not elevate to the White House a candidate who is openly racist, xenophobic, and misogynistic, because that would imply that millions of the people we share this society with are those three things or at least possessing sufficient moral cowardice to overlook those qualities in a candidate...."
"...That's why people cried on Wednesday and on Election night. (...) But we wanted to believe that our neighbors, our families, our fellow citizens were better than this, and now we can't. We know now going forward that we can never give the people we share this country with the benefit of doubt or tell ourselves that they are kind, decent people who could Never Do Such Things. We have seen them do it. We know better now. It is not a pretty thing to see when hope dies and is replaced by hard, cold mental armor."
1
I hope you're right. But my fear is that the Trump supporters could find themselves worse off with no Medicare, no Social Security, and corporations running even more amok, and not care, so long as there are others -- blacks, Latinos, Muslims, gay folks, women -- who are suffering more. (And continuing to take the blame.)
39
Running amok, you say? This may just be the intermission.
"So-called activist investors are increasingly gaining control of legacy corporations, forcing them to trim payrolls and downsize research operations—and, quite possibly, damaging the entire economy."
Read More:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/11/activist-investors/5...
"So-called activist investors are increasingly gaining control of legacy corporations, forcing them to trim payrolls and downsize research operations—and, quite possibly, damaging the entire economy."
Read More:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/11/activist-investors/5...
3
Nice try, but the author must not know any Trump supporters. There are several in my family; here are some insights on those to whom I am (most unfortunately) related.
First, they have little or no empathy for anyone in less fortunate circumstances, even those burdened by negligent parentage or genetic health issues. They care only about themselves and despise anyone who has more than they - even if those others worked harder for what they have.
These questions will elicit nothing meaningful from such shallow and uncaring people.
First, they have little or no empathy for anyone in less fortunate circumstances, even those burdened by negligent parentage or genetic health issues. They care only about themselves and despise anyone who has more than they - even if those others worked harder for what they have.
These questions will elicit nothing meaningful from such shallow and uncaring people.
76
I know Trump supporters. The way you describe them is really not accurate. It's kind of ridiculous to say that "they" are any single thing. Just absurd.
1
Understood. You're virtuous and your Trump supporting relatives are really, truly awful people-irredeemable even. So is every single one of the millions and millions of Trump voters.
You must not even try to talk to such miscreants because you might feel contaminated afterwards. Water is a precious resource not to be wasted cleansing Trumpian residue from your formerly pristine skin.
Sorry, I can't go any further down the road of feeding into your narcissism but Lord knows I gave it a good, satiric try above. It gave me a good laugh and that's nice, too.
Meanwhile, back in the land of real, nuanced human beings, I will give thanks for both my fellow Trump voting friends and family and my non-Trump voting friends and family. I value them all; as they value me. It's a shame you can't or won't say the same about the people in your life.
You must not even try to talk to such miscreants because you might feel contaminated afterwards. Water is a precious resource not to be wasted cleansing Trumpian residue from your formerly pristine skin.
Sorry, I can't go any further down the road of feeding into your narcissism but Lord knows I gave it a good, satiric try above. It gave me a good laugh and that's nice, too.
Meanwhile, back in the land of real, nuanced human beings, I will give thanks for both my fellow Trump voting friends and family and my non-Trump voting friends and family. I value them all; as they value me. It's a shame you can't or won't say the same about the people in your life.
4
...don't forget they also consider themselves good christians.
3
I'm sorry. This is more false equivalence and normalization of something that is neither. This conversation takes place, for me, after my dinner companions renounce racism, misogyny, anti-semitism and xenophobia. There can be no movement on those simple principles. These candidates were never equal and this administration is looking less normal by the minute. How 'bout those Cubs?
88
"How 'bout those Cubs?" Well to begin with,
their owners, the Ricketts, gave millions to the Trump campaign. Might try another icebreaker!
their owners, the Ricketts, gave millions to the Trump campaign. Might try another icebreaker!
1
I am in deep wonder as to whether it is possible to have an intelligent conversation re: Trump about known FACTS, not allegations, not opinions, not suppositions. I have tried with strangers, putting on my most pronounced sense of acceptance and composure and it has worked to a point, then it breaks down. Most people start with the idea in their heads, "If you are going to disagree with me, then I don't want to hear it", even if the disagreement is over fact, not opinion. This is particularly true for Trumpsters, because they feel they were put upon by the rest of the country as Trump was labeled unfit for the presidency, which only made them support him more.
60% of the nation and many of those who voted for him, said he was unqualified. Maybe that's the place to start: is he unqualified and, if so, why did you vote for him?
Are people who supported Trump idiots? Well, some of them are, at least on this subject because they support him in counter to known information about him and his business practices, his lifestyle, etc.
What saddens me is that so many millions were prepared to say, "We don't care what he is. We don't care what he says. We don't care if he has no experience", and then, in my view, put the future of their nation at serious risk for the sake of giving it a wild try.
The other thing: "Oh, he didn't mean what he was saying." How do you know what he meant? How do you have any idea what he will do if you, a supporter, disregards his statements?
60% of the nation and many of those who voted for him, said he was unqualified. Maybe that's the place to start: is he unqualified and, if so, why did you vote for him?
Are people who supported Trump idiots? Well, some of them are, at least on this subject because they support him in counter to known information about him and his business practices, his lifestyle, etc.
What saddens me is that so many millions were prepared to say, "We don't care what he is. We don't care what he says. We don't care if he has no experience", and then, in my view, put the future of their nation at serious risk for the sake of giving it a wild try.
The other thing: "Oh, he didn't mean what he was saying." How do you know what he meant? How do you have any idea what he will do if you, a supporter, disregards his statements?
87
This gave me a good laugh. Thankfully all immediate family are sensible thinking beings and were firmly in Clinton's camp. Our Thanksgiving will be devoted to plans for the upcoming apocalypse and where we will hunker down to ride it out. Thankfully we are a family of liberal hunters who can feed ourselves and protect ourselves. Also, as Irish Americans we won't be in the first roundups.
46
Doing the wrong thing (electing a morally-challenged snake oil salesman) for the right reasons still makes it wrong.
I don't see any Trump supporters *anywhere* reaching out to the rest of us who are feeling violated that all we hold dear about this nation (truth, morals, dignity, social strength, unity) apparently doesn't matter to half the voting public.
I don't see any Trump supporters *anywhere* reaching out to the rest of us who are feeling violated that all we hold dear about this nation (truth, morals, dignity, social strength, unity) apparently doesn't matter to half the voting public.
106
Perhaps just perhaps, if you would stop the name calling they would. Half the voting public needs to figure out why the other half gave them the bird. Maybe then we can all have an intelligent discussion. But, I doubt it, the extreme right and left can't stop shooting at each other, the rest of us caught in the middle a fed up!
9
@V M
I am a Trump supporter but I would have great difficulty reaching out to you. Two reasons:
1. I presume you were an Obama supporter and you never tried to reach out to me.
2. The press, including NYT, has been so vile and vicious, every day, nonstop, against my candidate, and it certainly fekt like they were talking on your behalf. How can I reach out to you when you start the attacks and never stop?
I am a Trump supporter but I would have great difficulty reaching out to you. Two reasons:
1. I presume you were an Obama supporter and you never tried to reach out to me.
2. The press, including NYT, has been so vile and vicious, every day, nonstop, against my candidate, and it certainly fekt like they were talking on your behalf. How can I reach out to you when you start the attacks and never stop?
6
And would you have reached out to them had it gone the other way?
6
To a person, the Republicans I know who voted for Trump tell me that their votes weren't motivated by racism, My response: then you need to tell that to Republicans in Congress and Trump, and that you strongly oppose nominations or staff selections by Trump of white nationalists and racists, such as Bannon and Sessions.
142
Not to mention these ones need to also decry and denounce such behavior they witness out in the world as hateful discriminatory acts are sharply on the rise all over the country.
14
In the interest of uniting and clearing the air, here are two articles, one written about Trump, by a mental health official, also an ardent Anti-Trumpist, who had two suicidal patients this week in the wake of Trump's election. He lays out the case that while there are many reasons to oppose Trump (and his nominees) racism and white nationalism are not what's on the table here and the hysteria that has emerged is extremely dangerous. Also an article from the Hollywood reporter that lays out the (not white nationalist) philosophy of Steve Bannon, Oppose Trump and his nominees as you will, but please do some research and make arguments that don't simply cry wolf and numb the public to concept of racism.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/steve-bannon-trump-tower-interview...
http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/
http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/steve-bannon-trump-tower-interview...
11
Sukie, wish I could recommend your post 1,000 times.
The so-called culture wars retain center stage, though instead of abortion and gay marriage (to distract conservatives), it's racism and islamophobia (to distract the rest of us).
Meanwhile Paul Ryan and his boys huddle quietly behind the curtain dismantling the New Deal.
The so-called culture wars retain center stage, though instead of abortion and gay marriage (to distract conservatives), it's racism and islamophobia (to distract the rest of us).
Meanwhile Paul Ryan and his boys huddle quietly behind the curtain dismantling the New Deal.
6
Generic focus group moderator script. But for the kinds of intimate encounters this guide was purportedly developed for, I'm not sure a clinical, corporate-speak approach is going to work.
Anyway, good luck America! Sure looks like you're going to need some.
Anyway, good luck America! Sure looks like you're going to need some.
29
This is so silly that I'm seeing a SNL skit in it. There's no reasonable conversation to be had until Trump shows his true colors and we are hit with the disasters that are sure to come. Until his supporters start losing their Medicare, Social Security and so many other things, the tried and true etiquette rule of no political talk at the table is the way to go.
84
That old rule was based on the idea that people would just be giving their opinions and then the other side would do the same, accomplishing nothing. The goal should be to steer the conversation toward facts, not opinion.
12
Agreed.....100%.
1
I think it was Albert Camus who said something like, "How can you claim to respect people when you respect those who don't?"
94
It is easier to reach out when you aren't part of a group who has been offended. Right now it is all I can do to control myself when yesterday, sitting at a doctor's office, I am quietly reading my electronic New York Times but you and your husband are loudly chuckling over the latest nasty "... in heels" comment made about our current First Lady. Then you pull up videos! And there is a black receptionist! I don't want to get along with you. I want to intellectually rip you to shreds for your insensitivity. I change my seat but how dare you. I am sure there are Trump voters who aren't racist, but sadly most of the ones talking are. Leave me alone, at least for a while. If you are a friend and you want to salvage this relationship, it is best to say nothing.
210
My immediate and extended family is a mix of races (black, brown, white), we live in different parts of the U.S. (west/east coasts, south, midwest) and abroad (Canada, Spain), with different religious beliefs (Catholic, Presbyterian, JW, atheist), and political beliefs which has made for some interesting holidays - but as far as Trump being a singular, unqualified disaster of an elected president we are united! I am fortunate that basic common decency rules in my diverse family.
92
Are you sure someone might not just keep their mouth shut for the sake of the family peace?! I certainly would in this nasty game of 'politics'. No need, no thanks.
Absolutely not!
I refuse to accept this as the new normal.
Anyone who reads--history, past fiction, nonfiction--will say this: human nature does not change.
Anyone who believes the rise of Nazism can't happen here or that the fall of American Demicracy can't happen here just hasn't a clue.
Accepting Trump's ascendency and manipulation of the election and the populace as normal is opening the door wider for the Fall of our country.
Absolutely not!
I refuse to accept this as the new normal.
Anyone who reads--history, past fiction, nonfiction--will say this: human nature does not change.
Anyone who believes the rise of Nazism can't happen here or that the fall of American Demicracy can't happen here just hasn't a clue.
Accepting Trump's ascendency and manipulation of the election and the populace as normal is opening the door wider for the Fall of our country.
Absolutely not!
140
I'm so disgusted with my sister right now that I'm not even going to the family Thanksgiving. I'm cooking my own with my own family. I have no problem with it. I'm a great cook. My grown kids don't want to be around the rest of the family either. Bunch of mouth breathers. We are feeling very superior. And we're at least enjoying that very much.
94
Clearly. How nice for you.
3
I have a relative who voted for Trump, and who doesn't know how horrified I am about that vote. He says it was because of how much he hated Hillary. I think the main thing I need to do is let him know how horrified I am and why; I don't think he really realizes what he did. He acted out of hate, and needs to reflect on the consequences.
59
Jon Stewart formerly of The Daily Show had a good take on the vote, in an interview with Charlie Rose. He's sane, and encouraging. Time to calm down and reduce the hysteria. People will unite against the negative policies of the new administration.
http://www.indiewire.com/2016/11/jon-stewart-talks-donald-trump-win-char...
Good luck to everyone, in the best sense of the word. Including Trump if he really cares about the best interests of the country, and population, beyond ideology.
http://www.indiewire.com/2016/11/jon-stewart-talks-donald-trump-win-char...
Good luck to everyone, in the best sense of the word. Including Trump if he really cares about the best interests of the country, and population, beyond ideology.
26
Be assured - he doesn't care. That will soon become obvious, if it hasn't already.
20
This article is based on the assumption that we are looking for or need rapprochement. Nothing could be further from the truth. There's no hope of reconciliation or healing, as evidenced by the alt-right influences on the appointments made so far.
Appeasement? No thank you.
Appeasement? No thank you.
198
My thoughts exactly. A line must be drawn and respected for all it represents. What do I care about the mental gymnastics indulged in by rationalizing, morally corrupted, irredeemably stupid family members who are PROUD of what they did? Not with my Thanksgiving, thank you.
106
Nope, sorry, not happening. I used to try to respond in rational conversation with a brother in law who never heard anything on Fox News that he didn't immediately believe. He was also a big fan of Howard Stern, the radio shock jock, back when DJT was a regular guest on that show and made some of his nastiest statements about women -- including his current wife. I realized 20 years ago that nothing I said would convince my BIL that Howard Stern and Fox weren't the best sources of information or emulation, and opening the door for him to repeat their offiensive nonsense was just increasing my own blood pressure. I'll stick to the weather, thanks.
137
I couldn't agree with you more. No thanks. I'd rather sit in the corner and drink my wine, and by that, I mean the entire bottle.
109
No disrespect intended, but it seems, as you were writing this, that you were celebrating the passage of the marijuana laws with the product itself. Do you really think, even aided by beverage alcohol, cannabis, or anxiety drugs that this would fly?
57
Questions I could ask a Trump supporter but won't:
Q1: My physical disability is a joke to you?
Q2: How would you like to rate me on a scale from 1 to 10?
Q3: You think I don't deserve equal marriage rights?
Q4: You want to deport or register my friends who are refugees and asylum seekers?
Some divides are simply too great to cross.
Q1: My physical disability is a joke to you?
Q2: How would you like to rate me on a scale from 1 to 10?
Q3: You think I don't deserve equal marriage rights?
Q4: You want to deport or register my friends who are refugees and asylum seekers?
Some divides are simply too great to cross.
312
1.what?
2. What?
3.equal marriage rights for all. Marriage should be between any man and any woman.
4. Illegal aliens should leave the country and apply through the front door. Asylum is a different matter but not all 11,000,000 seek asylum.
2. What?
3.equal marriage rights for all. Marriage should be between any man and any woman.
4. Illegal aliens should leave the country and apply through the front door. Asylum is a different matter but not all 11,000,000 seek asylum.
1
I do not need to discuss over dinner someone's decision to place an openly racist, hateful, bigoted conspiracy theorist into the most powerful office on earth. I would not need to sit down and exchange pleasantries with the nice, God-fearing, middle-class white folks who attended lynchings in the Old South or who cheered when fire hoses were turned on civil rights demonstrators. I never felt the need to break bread with Holocaust deniers or neo-Nazis. We need not humanize those who seek to dehumanize us.
Offering empathy to people who have demonstrated they have none is not a first step towards reconciliation; it is normalizing the abhorrent.This is a time for fighting, not for appeasement.
Offering empathy to people who have demonstrated they have none is not a first step towards reconciliation; it is normalizing the abhorrent.This is a time for fighting, not for appeasement.
393
Well said. We must fight for our country
12
Oh god, I am dreading the holidays.
I would skip them entirely if my husband's parents, who I love dearly, weren't as old as they are, this may be their last.
All of my husband's family voted for Trump. They did because they are Republicans and never vote for democrats, period.
But one of my brothers-in-law was an avid supporter, went to Trump rallies and canvassed for him. He has #11 in spades.
He is a racist xenophobe, hates feminism and wants to deny women the right to choose. He is deeply religious, Catholic, and positively drips sanctimony.
He shoved my father once when my father reminded him that he is the son of a first generation immigrant. Luckily for him a friend and my husband held them both back, because if my dad had gotten a punch it would've been one and done. He dodged the Vietnam draft, my father served, albeit years before.
He will gloat, loudly and often.
Is he a typical Trump supporter? I don't know.
So I ask you times readers for suggestions, besides wine and earplugs, how does one talk to someone like this?
I would skip them entirely if my husband's parents, who I love dearly, weren't as old as they are, this may be their last.
All of my husband's family voted for Trump. They did because they are Republicans and never vote for democrats, period.
But one of my brothers-in-law was an avid supporter, went to Trump rallies and canvassed for him. He has #11 in spades.
He is a racist xenophobe, hates feminism and wants to deny women the right to choose. He is deeply religious, Catholic, and positively drips sanctimony.
He shoved my father once when my father reminded him that he is the son of a first generation immigrant. Luckily for him a friend and my husband held them both back, because if my dad had gotten a punch it would've been one and done. He dodged the Vietnam draft, my father served, albeit years before.
He will gloat, loudly and often.
Is he a typical Trump supporter? I don't know.
So I ask you times readers for suggestions, besides wine and earplugs, how does one talk to someone like this?
152
Andrea,
Try to enjoy the Your Thanksgiving dinner by not talking about politics. Hopefully, there are some interesting and stimulating topics or stories you can all focus on. I disagree with this article entirely. If I ever asked questions like these of anyone I know who voted for the alt-right, it would not end well for either of us. They'll find out soon enough what they have brought upon the rest of us. Unfortunately, we are all going to suffer.
Try to enjoy the Your Thanksgiving dinner by not talking about politics. Hopefully, there are some interesting and stimulating topics or stories you can all focus on. I disagree with this article entirely. If I ever asked questions like these of anyone I know who voted for the alt-right, it would not end well for either of us. They'll find out soon enough what they have brought upon the rest of us. Unfortunately, we are all going to suffer.
30
Maybe it's time for your elderly in-laws to take some responsibility for the situation they've created. Even if they can't think straight anymore, you don't have to sit there among such terrible people just so they can feel good about the family they created. Your absence might be the only opportunity left for them to face the fact that their contribution to this world has been a family of self-centered bullies. Parents make mistakes. The luckiest ones take the opportunity to correct them while there's still time.
32
Don't go. Not worth it. Visit your elderly parents the day before or after.
17
Although sexism and/or racism enter into the decisions of Trump voters, one important question that does not come up here is whether the voter was well informed, well-read, etc. Many voters were just ignorant, leading to their Trump vote.
45
Yes, willfully ignorant because they couldn't be bothered to look beyond facebook for their "news." Ignorance of the law is no excuse, and neither is ignorance of what you're voting for.
34
Many Trump voters are "just ignorant"? How many have you personally observed making their decisions? I am sure most Trump voters are simply plain stupid and unable to think for themselves, let alone think. Grunt, grunt.
Oh no! The thought of having such a conversation with my stepfather or my in-laws, all of whom are disappointed that Ted Cruz was not the nominee, makes me feel physically sick. They vote based on religious feelings and wedge issues. Oh and of course always for the republican nominee, even if that nominee is Donald Trump.
Now my father is a republican but not for religious or wedge issue reasons. He and I can have a spirited discussion about economic policy, environmental policy, immigration, or whatever and then, after using a lot of colorful language, we can agree to disagree. But the evangelical types? Forget about it. Jesus doesn't want you to kill babies and Our Founding Fathers wanted Christianity to be the basis of our legal and political systems? No way am I listening to that and I certainly wouldn't ask for it.
Now my father is a republican but not for religious or wedge issue reasons. He and I can have a spirited discussion about economic policy, environmental policy, immigration, or whatever and then, after using a lot of colorful language, we can agree to disagree. But the evangelical types? Forget about it. Jesus doesn't want you to kill babies and Our Founding Fathers wanted Christianity to be the basis of our legal and political systems? No way am I listening to that and I certainly wouldn't ask for it.
94
I know and talk to (every day) plenty of Trump voters (I voted Clinton). I believe those voters to not have been motivated by hate but rather by exasperation with Washington and its dysfunction. I agreed with their frustration but disagreed as to the best response.
When Trump one my heart sank but then I reasoned "well let's give him a chance. He was all over the place during the election, maybe he will stop the hate and focus on doing what's right." I've been holding my breath hoping and praying he would.
But now his cabinet picks are being announced and my worst fears are being realized. Telling those of us who were rational and thinking to open a dialogue with people who have pushed us down this path is not helpful. The Trump supporters have insulted and belittled us.
I feel exactly like I did after Christie won the election in NJ. Disappointed but accepting, and cautiously optimistic a bullying change agent could change things. Look how well that's worked out!
When Trump one my heart sank but then I reasoned "well let's give him a chance. He was all over the place during the election, maybe he will stop the hate and focus on doing what's right." I've been holding my breath hoping and praying he would.
But now his cabinet picks are being announced and my worst fears are being realized. Telling those of us who were rational and thinking to open a dialogue with people who have pushed us down this path is not helpful. The Trump supporters have insulted and belittled us.
I feel exactly like I did after Christie won the election in NJ. Disappointed but accepting, and cautiously optimistic a bullying change agent could change things. Look how well that's worked out!
78
Get on with it man! I don't remember having to ask anyone when President Obama got elected. This is politics. We don't always agree - we debate. One wins - we move on.
21
It's OK when conservatives and Republicans are disappointed with the results of an election -- Mr. Obama famously said "elections have consequences!"
But if liberals lost an election...oh my. The whinging and the chest thumping and the renting of clothing...you'd think the world was ending.
Here's a heads up -- attending a family Thanksgiving, Christmas or Hanukkah, with the sole intention of interrogating your relatives and trying to attack them for their vote...insult them or lecture them or snark on them....is about the worst and most hateful thing I've read in a long time.
How about heading out to shop at the mall, but instead of shopping...you buttonhole perfect strangers and insult them about their political allegiances?
Maybe you can just sit home, and randomly dial phone numbers, and then demand people tell you who they voted for -- and then try to argue with them over it.
Fun times!
But if liberals lost an election...oh my. The whinging and the chest thumping and the renting of clothing...you'd think the world was ending.
Here's a heads up -- attending a family Thanksgiving, Christmas or Hanukkah, with the sole intention of interrogating your relatives and trying to attack them for their vote...insult them or lecture them or snark on them....is about the worst and most hateful thing I've read in a long time.
How about heading out to shop at the mall, but instead of shopping...you buttonhole perfect strangers and insult them about their political allegiances?
Maybe you can just sit home, and randomly dial phone numbers, and then demand people tell you who they voted for -- and then try to argue with them over it.
Fun times!
5
I appreciate the intent here. But presumably this is directed towards Clinton voters, not Trump voters. I have some Trump voters in my family and I just don't believe they would want to engage in a conversation like this; heck, they might get called out! Those of us who voted for Clinton are encouraged to reach across the table to understand Trump supporters' views, but are Trump supporters encouraged to do the same? I'd be very surprised if Clinton supporters' efforts were met with anything but hateful derision; it's what's characterized most of Trump's followers all along. It takes a big, open-minded person to engage in a dialogue like this. Not the profile of many who willingly voted into office a bigoted, racist, egotistical, deceitful con artist. And how the ones who are supposed to be "good people" could not be offended by Trump's behavior and concerned about the consequences of his actions -- not to mention the personal responsibility they will bear for those consequences -- positively eludes me. No, I don't think any of them would want to talk to us.
243
I couldn't agree more. It seems to me that trumps voters are sore winners. I know one who was texting nasty childish messages until 3am election night and has continued to do so since then. I've read about a trump supporter punching a woman in the face in a Brooklyn restaurant and about a trump supporter speaking out about being discriminated against because it took too long to get his coffee at Starbucks, among other stories. Really? Those of us who didn't vote for him are scared about what can happen to our country. He has done nothing since the election to quell those fears and his voters are deplorable.
7
I tried during the Obama years. All they would say is They hated Obama. No reason given.
1
I think it's impossible to have a rational conversation across the divide. I know of only one person who voted for Trump, and he spends his days listening to Rush Limbaugh, reading the Drudge Report and Breitbart newsfeeds, and watching Fox News. He's on another planet. Asking any of these questions would be pointless and would just raise my blood pressure.
I think we should concentrate less on understanding Trump voters and more on getting more people to get out and vote. The reason Clinton lost was because enough Democrats didn't turn out to vote, not because Trump awakened legions of new voters. If you want to have a useful conversation, find someone who didn't vote at all and ask them these questions.
I think we should concentrate less on understanding Trump voters and more on getting more people to get out and vote. The reason Clinton lost was because enough Democrats didn't turn out to vote, not because Trump awakened legions of new voters. If you want to have a useful conversation, find someone who didn't vote at all and ask them these questions.
225
Leigh, Secretary Clinton recieved 1 million more votes (and growing) than the deviant.
3
Of course not all Trump voters are racists.
They tell us so!
But whether or not they are, electing Trump has certainly opened the gates to more openness of hate than we've seen/heard/read in decades. It's OK again to make nasty comments about those Awful Others (whose background is not White, Christian, male, middle-class, of English descent).
It's likely to get worse, as the New Order adds new complications to gaining or keeping voting rights.
We must make the best of it, hoping the worst is not really upon us, and when and where we can, defend the 'others' - their person, their rights, their dignity. Hopefully, it won't become increasingly more dangerous to do so.
Life goes on. For awhile, at least.
They tell us so!
But whether or not they are, electing Trump has certainly opened the gates to more openness of hate than we've seen/heard/read in decades. It's OK again to make nasty comments about those Awful Others (whose background is not White, Christian, male, middle-class, of English descent).
It's likely to get worse, as the New Order adds new complications to gaining or keeping voting rights.
We must make the best of it, hoping the worst is not really upon us, and when and where we can, defend the 'others' - their person, their rights, their dignity. Hopefully, it won't become increasingly more dangerous to do so.
Life goes on. For awhile, at least.
19
I think the way a number of Trump voters viewed this election was they were not big fans of Trump but they believed he would benefit them economically more than Clinton. Or they didn't like Trump so much but they hated Clinton more. For Clinton voters Trump's racism was a deal breaker. As one of those Clinton voters I have a hard time understanding why others didn't feel the same.
30
We tried all of this. It didn't work! So we decided to avoid political discussions entirely and an amazing thing happened. We are all happy again!
33
No sorry. No can do. This has nothing to do with being a Republican. I used to be one; most of my male friends are Republicans, and frankly they are much hotter than the Dem men who are too feminine for my taste.
However, none of my Republican friends voted for Trump because they are also bright and educated and too sophisticated to be taken in by a con artist, swindler. These are successful guys. You don't get to be successful if you fall to a con artist.
So who does that leave who was naive enough to vote for Trump. Bottom line -- no one I would admit in my circle. Unthinking religious uber pro-life zealots, those without teeth, loser blue-collar workers too stoned or whatever to get furtuer training, racists, bigots, etc. So there will be no nice discussions. I find out you voted for Trump. I quietly move to the other side of the room because my radar says you are a naive child-like loser who could care less about this country. You helped vote in a disaster, and I have no interest in a friendship with a dummy.
However, none of my Republican friends voted for Trump because they are also bright and educated and too sophisticated to be taken in by a con artist, swindler. These are successful guys. You don't get to be successful if you fall to a con artist.
So who does that leave who was naive enough to vote for Trump. Bottom line -- no one I would admit in my circle. Unthinking religious uber pro-life zealots, those without teeth, loser blue-collar workers too stoned or whatever to get furtuer training, racists, bigots, etc. So there will be no nice discussions. I find out you voted for Trump. I quietly move to the other side of the room because my radar says you are a naive child-like loser who could care less about this country. You helped vote in a disaster, and I have no interest in a friendship with a dummy.
158
I voted for Hilary but it's comments like this that explain why Trump was able to woo white voters in swing states that Obama won in '08 and '12. Many of them voted for Obama twice. Are they racists? Not worthy to be in your orbit?
Enough with cherry picking friends who only believe what we believe or want them to believe. The result is living in an echo chamber where we don't know how Americans are feeling. That's why Democrats were so shell shocked Trump won. They thought they had it in the bag. They were wrong and made disastrous campaign mistakes.
Sadly there are quite a view Trump supporters who are racist and naive. But not all of them. I work in social services where I work with people sliding out it of the middle class everyday. They're paying $1800 a month for health insurance, have high deductibles and suffer from illnesses, forcing them to choose between paying the mortgage or going to the doctor. They are under employed and are watching thier children. struggle. Thier concerns are legit.
Obama did a lot of things right, some not so great. I'm not happy Trump is POTUS but walking ourselves off from each other will only make the problem worse.
Enough with cherry picking friends who only believe what we believe or want them to believe. The result is living in an echo chamber where we don't know how Americans are feeling. That's why Democrats were so shell shocked Trump won. They thought they had it in the bag. They were wrong and made disastrous campaign mistakes.
Sadly there are quite a view Trump supporters who are racist and naive. But not all of them. I work in social services where I work with people sliding out it of the middle class everyday. They're paying $1800 a month for health insurance, have high deductibles and suffer from illnesses, forcing them to choose between paying the mortgage or going to the doctor. They are under employed and are watching thier children. struggle. Thier concerns are legit.
Obama did a lot of things right, some not so great. I'm not happy Trump is POTUS but walking ourselves off from each other will only make the problem worse.
38
Comments like these make me question whether I can in fact be a liberal when I read such contemptuous taunts as "those without teeth" and "loser blue-collar workers," preceded by the charming descriptions of "drooling yahoos" and "toothless maws" that graced these pages last week. For me the cornerstone of liberalism is compassion. All I see is smug, condescending snark and stereotyping. If being a liberal means being a mean girl, then I want no part of it.
54
Well said. Coming to the realization that one's own side can be as mean and intolerant as the other is a real eye opener. That's why I changed my voter registration from Republican to independent ("unenrolled" in Maine) years ago.
5
I couldn't vote for Clinton, and not because I'm a bigot or a sexist. As SoS Clinton pumped weapons into Syria, knowing these weapons were going to Islamic extremists, including affiliates of Al Qaeda - a story broke by the NY Times.
Clinton has aligned the US with Saudi Arabia, a country where homosexuality may be met with a death penalty. A country that embraces Shadia Law, a xenophobic structure that shuns free thought and speech, and Western culture more generally. A country that is nothing less than misogynistic. A country that takes legal actions against rape victims for sleeping with men out of marriage.
The fact that the Clinton Foundation takes so much money from these sort of countries is disgusting to me, and wreaks of pay to play. People who criticize the bigotry of Trump ignore the bigotry entwined in Clinton's globalist policy. Trump very well may be a nutter, but if there is a chance that he will deviate from our completely insane foreign policy, then I feel compelled to support him.
That said, I am very concerned about Trump's SC nominations and the rise of White Nationalism. I wish there would have been another candidate to vote for.
Not to mention that Clinton is BFF with Wall Street and the Corporatocracy. But sure, keep hurling insults at those whom disagree with you...
Clinton has aligned the US with Saudi Arabia, a country where homosexuality may be met with a death penalty. A country that embraces Shadia Law, a xenophobic structure that shuns free thought and speech, and Western culture more generally. A country that is nothing less than misogynistic. A country that takes legal actions against rape victims for sleeping with men out of marriage.
The fact that the Clinton Foundation takes so much money from these sort of countries is disgusting to me, and wreaks of pay to play. People who criticize the bigotry of Trump ignore the bigotry entwined in Clinton's globalist policy. Trump very well may be a nutter, but if there is a chance that he will deviate from our completely insane foreign policy, then I feel compelled to support him.
That said, I am very concerned about Trump's SC nominations and the rise of White Nationalism. I wish there would have been another candidate to vote for.
Not to mention that Clinton is BFF with Wall Street and the Corporatocracy. But sure, keep hurling insults at those whom disagree with you...
19
The U.S. has lined up with Saudi Arabia for decades and that relationship was particularly close and personal with the Bush family, including two presidents named Bush. You can read all about it in "House of Bush, House of Saud" by Craig Unger. The Bush family also has longstanding, multi-generational ties to Wall Street and corporate America. Those ties don't in themselves negate everything about the Bush presidencies (I voted for the first one). Why do they matter so much to you with regard to Hillary Clinton and not the Bushes?
62
The US has been "aligned" with Saudi Arabia for decades. You may recall President George W. Bush kissing King Abdullah, or George H. W. Bush effectively guarantying Saudi Arabia's safety in the first Gulf War; this goes back to Reagan, who helped channel Saudi money to the resistance fighters opposing Soviet troops in Afghanistan (you may have heard of them). And, for what it's worth, Donald Trump sold the 45th floor of Trump World Tower to the Saudi government for $4.5 million, and has collected millions more in condo fees from them ever since - millions of dollars going into his own pocket, even while he attacked Hillary Clinton for accepting Saudi money given to a _charity_.
What's disgusting to me is seeing people so blindly gobble up every anti-Clinton conspiracy theory while ignoring the fact that Trump has done far worse, ultimately resulting in a bigoted, racist, wannabe fascist taking over the presidency to satisfy your own ignorant anger. And you whimper about "the rise of White Nationalism" as if you aren't the catalyst allowing it to fester.
By the way, Trump is the one proposing that we roll back Wall Street regulations and slash corporate tax rates. But sure, keep pretending like Clinton was the evil one.
What's disgusting to me is seeing people so blindly gobble up every anti-Clinton conspiracy theory while ignoring the fact that Trump has done far worse, ultimately resulting in a bigoted, racist, wannabe fascist taking over the presidency to satisfy your own ignorant anger. And you whimper about "the rise of White Nationalism" as if you aren't the catalyst allowing it to fester.
By the way, Trump is the one proposing that we roll back Wall Street regulations and slash corporate tax rates. But sure, keep pretending like Clinton was the evil one.
97
John McCain actually went to Syria and met with rebel groups and demanded that the US supply weapons, and he is not the only Republican that did so. As to the alignment with Saudi Arabia, that is all about the oil and has been the case for years and years. Definitely not started by Clinton. Way back to Eisenhower days!
20
My sister's long time best friend ( both are 60 year old affluent white women) believes that god sent Donald Trump to save the USA from the corruption and godless immorality of the Clinton's and Obama's. Literally. When it was pointed out that god seemed to have selected an odd savior, given Trump's history of abusing women and serial marriages, etc. her response? God often sends sinners to be his messenger.
How can any rational discussion ensue?
How can any rational discussion ensue?
435
Well, if rational discussion won't work, tell her that the Trump family owns 666 Fifth Avenue.
105
That is called magical thinking. It is supremely self centered. To twist reality into some sort of "truth" is our biggest enemy. Someone in my newsfeed on Facebook stated, "bigotry is in the eye of the beholder". Welcome to the midieval ages.
2
God fearing people are often the ones most to fear
6
Cmon. There was no rationality behind the trump vote. These people were and continue to be brainwashed that Clinton and the democratic party haven't been trying to get a jobs bill. So the disappointment and lack of communication comes from understanding that lies were responsible for his election. Clinton was painted with lies that she was a crook despite she hasn't spent a day in jail. How does one have a civil conversation with a gullible and disgruntled individual without them quoting the stuff they've been fed?
124
I really do not see the need for this conversation. My sister did not vote because she hated them both- we talked about it. I am liberal she is not. I love my sister. My brother voted for Trump. He is, and always has been an angry white man. He blames everything on blacks and immigrants - always has, always will. He is a racist. I love my brother no matter what anyway. We'll talk about the things we do have in common - the garden, the historic home repairs, hockey, Italian food, our other brother. Politics is not everything, you know.
51
No, but morals, scruples and ethics are.
5
Q: Don't you find some of his or his associates' views objectionable?
A: Yes, but racism, misogyny, homophobia, and xenophobia are not dealbreakers for me.
I would not agree with that answer but if someone gave it, I would have to respect their honesty.
A: Yes, but racism, misogyny, homophobia, and xenophobia are not dealbreakers for me.
I would not agree with that answer but if someone gave it, I would have to respect their honesty.
29
What homophobia has Mr. Trump ever expressed? And BTW: Latino and hispanic are not races. There is no "unique brown skinned race". Mexico is a large nation with many races, including white and black and indigenous native indian groups.
Islam is absolutely NOT a race, as Muslims can be of any ethnic or racial group.
Therefore your allegations against Mr. Trump are themselves biased, ignorant, prejudicial and unfair.
Islam is absolutely NOT a race, as Muslims can be of any ethnic or racial group.
Therefore your allegations against Mr. Trump are themselves biased, ignorant, prejudicial and unfair.
2
Me too.
We know they're racists.
They know they're racists.
And they know we know they're racists and we know they know it.
So why do they insists we pretend they're normal?
We know they're racists.
They know they're racists.
And they know we know they're racists and we know they know it.
So why do they insists we pretend they're normal?
4
This is hilarious. Has Mr. Barbaro met any Trump supporters?
My triumphant, Trump-loving, midwestern, birther, family members would tear this kum-ba-yah nonsense to shreds. I'd never hear the end of it.
Better idea:
- Skip the holidays for at least four years (or until my kid is old enough to hit her cousins back - hard.)
- Pray a lot.
My triumphant, Trump-loving, midwestern, birther, family members would tear this kum-ba-yah nonsense to shreds. I'd never hear the end of it.
Better idea:
- Skip the holidays for at least four years (or until my kid is old enough to hit her cousins back - hard.)
- Pray a lot.
346
Pray?
If god was up there, trump wouldn't be down here.
If god was up there, trump wouldn't be down here.
1
Lol. Perfect.
The Times is certainly covering all its bases. Here's a discussion guide about the election, with the understanding that most of us have generally good intentions.
There's also an op ed piece about California seceding because most people there voted for Clinton over Trump.
It's as if the Times is busy telling everybody to calm down and try to get along on the one hand, while doing everything it can to fan anger and division on the other.
There's also an op ed piece about California seceding because most people there voted for Clinton over Trump.
It's as if the Times is busy telling everybody to calm down and try to get along on the one hand, while doing everything it can to fan anger and division on the other.
27
I don't have a problem with this. The Times is trying to provide a variety of viewpoints, while still calling out factual untruths. While I have specific criticisms of their choices myself (for example, I abhor the use of the euphemistic term 'alt-right'), I think they do a great job overall of providing a platform for thoughtful views on controversial topics. If they encourage even a slightly wider spectrum of folks to read, think, and engage, that's good for the US and the world.
12
The NYT keeps providing facts that can be double-checked and analyzed, and also opinion pieces from a variety of positions (none fascist, as far as I can tell, but that's not something I yearn for). Some I agree with, others I don't.
They "fan anger and division"? Only if one thinks laying DT's policies and appoints out for the world to see--which results in shock and rage--is creating the anger, rather than his words and deeds themselves.
They "fan anger and division"? Only if one thinks laying DT's policies and appoints out for the world to see--which results in shock and rage--is creating the anger, rather than his words and deeds themselves.
1
They failed utterly to force their lousy candidate on us, despite constant hectoring and fingerwagging and lecturing and 5 articles a day bashing Trump and trying to destroy him.
THEN they utterly failed in predicting the results of the election...which means either gross incompetence, or outright fraud (i.e., trying to influence the outcome by publishing false data).
NOW they want us to fight with our families on Thanksgiving.
This is the very definition of "poor loser" and "bad sport".
THEN they utterly failed in predicting the results of the election...which means either gross incompetence, or outright fraud (i.e., trying to influence the outcome by publishing false data).
NOW they want us to fight with our families on Thanksgiving.
This is the very definition of "poor loser" and "bad sport".
1
Trump won because people are opposed to civil rights, women's rights, and gay marriage. Gay kids watched as their parents voted for Trump. What a terrible thing to do to your child. The child might forgive the parent, but how does the parents forgive themselves knowing they chose politics over family and have placed their child at risk? There are a lot of parents who can't look their kids in the face anymore.
155
That's pretty stupid, given that Trump has said he is fine with gay marriage and accepts the Supreme Court's final decision on the matter.
He has said nothing about taking away women's rights, assuming you mean "the right to vote" or own property or run a business, etc.
I don't know which civil rights, you think Trump is opposed to, but you are wrong if you think he is a racist. (NOTE: Latino is not a race. Hispanic is not a race. Islam is not a race.)
He has said nothing about taking away women's rights, assuming you mean "the right to vote" or own property or run a business, etc.
I don't know which civil rights, you think Trump is opposed to, but you are wrong if you think he is a racist. (NOTE: Latino is not a race. Hispanic is not a race. Islam is not a race.)
3
"Gay kids watched as their parents voted for Trump."
Can you cite your source? That seems painting things with a pretty wide brush. Us non-Trump voters need to stay clear of half-truths and unverifiable statements. That's their territory - they might get mad.
Can you cite your source? That seems painting things with a pretty wide brush. Us non-Trump voters need to stay clear of half-truths and unverifiable statements. That's their territory - they might get mad.
1
Trump said he's fine with the high courts opinion legalizing same-sex marriage. Aside from that, it's been a federal law that has had a 60% public opinion approval rate. As for abortion ... people do have a choice - to think about consequences *before* they go to bed (rape is an exception). As for parents not being able to "look their kids in the face" ... I think it's a good idea when the parent is in charge, rather than the child. I was unaware that children were able to vote yet anyway.
How about keeping it simpler, with a single question:
Why?
Why?
113
How does one make peace with someone who doesn't believe that all Americans should be treated equally under the law?
402
Illegal aliens are not American citizens; that's the whole POINT of deporting them back to their native homelands.
3
Such as ... immigration law?
A better choice would be to not talk about this. Talk about things that actually effect your personal reality. Like what to cook, or how to serve your fellow men.
33
This is assuming you are a white person who is fiscally well off and thus Trump doesn't effect your life - hey you may even get a tax cut. If you are a minority, a muslim, gay, disabled, immigrant, and to some extent just being a women - Trump as President does effect your personal reality. And that's the big problem I see. I was disappointed when Bush won and was embarrassed by a lot of things he said. But I never believed he was only out for himself, nor did I believe his words/actions show him to be a racist, bigoted, sexual harasser. Trump has normalized all those things.
19
Just ignore it?
Well that might be how y'all do it down south but here up North our parents raised us differently.
They raised us to address wrongs not to ignore them.
Well that might be how y'all do it down south but here up North our parents raised us differently.
They raised us to address wrongs not to ignore them.
6
No, I just cannot feel empathy for Trump voters, as hard as I've been trying. They have attacked so much of what I love about America: its immigrant energy, its diversity, and its Constitution. During the campaign, Trump offered no coherent economic plans or workable policies; the only "coherent" ideas he expressed were that "real Americans" should blame Mexicans, Muslims, and immigrants in general for their problems and mock women and the disabled. That's what these voters have endorsed, and if you scratch the surface of their denial, you can find that they share these views. Now media outlets and commentators want those whom these Trumpers attacked to feel "empathy." No.
423
Exactly. I am not putting that kind of time or energy into family members or anyone else who voted for this vile man. I am tired of the "whitewashing" (no pun intended) rationalizing why people voted for Trump. I have a much easier solution to dealing with them: don't even bother with them. I dumped family members 8 years ago when Obama was running and I started to get racist emails. Some relationships are just not worth it. And if they try to rationalize their vote for Trump, let 'em have it. For the first time in our country's history, there really is no excuse for voting for this awful excuse of a human being.
257
Amen
22
"No, I just cannot feel empathy for Trump voters."
Right you are. It would be a false equivalence. There is nothing wrong with hating haters. That's what hate is properly used for.
Right you are. It would be a false equivalence. There is nothing wrong with hating haters. That's what hate is properly used for.
24
Why do we have to talk about our vote with anyone? What is going to be accomplished? My wife voted for Mrs. Clinton as she always votes Democrat, and while I also usually vote Democrat tooI voted for the first time since I started voting in presidential elections--1976--for a third-party candidate as I could not stomach Mr. Trump or Mrs. Clinton (and my state was going red no matter how I voted). My wife knows and I know. At least one of my brothers voted for Trump (Texan), at least one voted for Clinton (Coloradoan), and my mother voted for Trump (Oklahoman). Some of my personal friends voted for Trump, although they haven't come right out and said it. My wife and I attended an Earth, Wind & Fire/Chicago concert the other night and feel much better now about the world.
I do think we should follow Mr. Barbaro's guidelines for conversations in all our dealings with others.
I do think we should follow Mr. Barbaro's guidelines for conversations in all our dealings with others.
13
I, too, couldn't vote for either Trump or Clinton, so I voted a write-in. But I have found out that when it comes to talking about it, there's a good chance you'll be rebuked for having thrown away your vote by not taking the lesser of two evils approach and voting for Clinton. So to answer your question, "what is going to be accomplished", I would say nothing but hard feelings and the realization that Clinton voters can be just as intolerant as anyone else.
8
So are you fine with Trump being President? Do you think he will protect the least amongst us?
This is why we ended up with Trump = people wanted to protest and assumed hey I live in Michigan the polls show Clinton wins - I'm voting a third party. I'm interested in how many who voted third party regret their vote now that the rest of the country didn't save them from Trump.
This is why we ended up with Trump = people wanted to protest and assumed hey I live in Michigan the polls show Clinton wins - I'm voting a third party. I'm interested in how many who voted third party regret their vote now that the rest of the country didn't save them from Trump.
12
Nice normalization--a big reason for why there is so much distress about this election is that one side went full racist. The people that voted for our next President decided that (1) racism was good; (2) he was racist but that's not as important as -----; (3) he is not racist.
If you are a voter who feels strongly that all american deserve the full range of civil rights, including the right to be secure in their homes and to participate fully in civic life, then its hard for you to normalize the votes of a controlling minority of American voters. I do not agree that normalizing tolerance of racism and sexism is a good or desirable outcome for America.
If you are a voter who feels strongly that all american deserve the full range of civil rights, including the right to be secure in their homes and to participate fully in civic life, then its hard for you to normalize the votes of a controlling minority of American voters. I do not agree that normalizing tolerance of racism and sexism is a good or desirable outcome for America.
308
If you think that every vote for Trump was cast for racism, then the conversation is already over.
I did not vote for Trump, but I know many who did, and most would dispute your racism charge.
I did not vote for Trump, but I know many who did, and most would dispute your racism charge.
7
But those people are ignoring plain words of Trump---or deluding themselves.
38
I agree with you that most Trump voters would not see themselves as racists. I can also tell you that my entire family voted for him and they do not see themselves as racists. But, because I know them, I can tell you that they are, in fact, racists. They are the nicer kind of racists, as opposed to those who spray paint graffiti on walls and drive through town with a confederate flag on the back of their truck. They are all multi-millionaires but they thought Obama was ruining the country. And they all love Fox News. They feel how they feel and they get mad if you try and discuss factual information. I'm grateful I won't be with them for Thanksgiving.
165
People should go about making peace with their friends/family/co-workers who voted for the 'other' anyway that works. I voted on moral, not political, grounds. And I am cognizant that many people voted for Trump on the single issue that he will bring back their jobs (and I've heard more than say if that promise is not kept, it will end their support. But I'm watching the Trump 'regime,' as he's called it, fill with people who actually believe in the precepts of fascism, or at least in "taking back" the country from other Americans who are simply non-Christian and non-white. There is no set of 'suggested' questions and no amount of wine that's going to get me past that.
196
I find this really depressing, sad and ridiculous. Do we really need a guide from the NY Times on how to talk to each other? Really? Has our society devolved into relying on social media to talk to each other? I know it is hard to talk to those in your circle about why they voted the other way. But really, you need NY Times to tell you how to approach this person? Most unfortunate. Social media connects us all in many ways but fosters disconnection in authentic ways on so many levels.
45
Rollingthedice,
Heh, heh, heh...have you read any of these responses?
If you think this article is actually succeeding at convincing Americans to reunite with their vile trump supporting relatives you are nuts.
This article had a nobel goal.
It was an attempt at reconciliation which is always nobel.
But, as the comments show, we Americans ain't buying it.
Trump and his base of unbalanced confederate children are an existential threat to the future of America and we Americans are ready to fight to save it.
Heh, heh, heh...have you read any of these responses?
If you think this article is actually succeeding at convincing Americans to reunite with their vile trump supporting relatives you are nuts.
This article had a nobel goal.
It was an attempt at reconciliation which is always nobel.
But, as the comments show, we Americans ain't buying it.
Trump and his base of unbalanced confederate children are an existential threat to the future of America and we Americans are ready to fight to save it.
4
why do you want to privatize my social security? I'm your son.
97
Add to this "Do you want to lose your Medicare?"
Thank you for a sensitive issue and pointers.
9
After the election, a group of us got together to build a platform that brings together Americans from all political beliefs and walks of life for small-group discussions of about 6 people over Google Hangouts. The discussions don't have a moderator, but they're accompanied by many of the same sorts of ground rules and questions from this article. It's at talkaboutlearning.in/election
If you think these sorts of dialogues between Trump and Clinton supporters have value, I challenge you to act upon it. Participate in a conversation yourself. If we refuse to engage with the other side, I fear that the divisions we're seeing now are only going to grow worse over time.