He killed her for the sole reason that he was afraid she would find out that he was breaking the law and that he would be deported. his illegally being in America caused him to kill her. And people say that his illegal immigration has nothing to do with the killing. Also, America was founded on immigrants, but not illegal ones. I dont believe everything America as a whole has done is goo, but there was no country in north America before the USA and no laws to break. America is open to immigrants, just not illegal ones. I believe those people who cannot legally enter America should be helped in ther was. Instead of using our taxes for meaningless things the government wastes it on, our taxes could be used to help these people through the process of legally entering America.
25
I recall the death of Ms. Shelley very well and am very sorry for Mr. Ostroy's loss. Whether documented or not, it is clear that the killer had a viscous streak and low impulse control, neither quality being related to immigration status. As there was absolutely not doubt as to his guilt, I regret that the killer wasn't put to death by the state after conviction.
23
I would go a step further than the writer of the article, and say that in fact: Our dysfunctional immigration laws are what got his wife killed, not the immigrant who was tangled in them.
For if that immigrant, had no fear of being reported and deported, he may not have killed in a desperate, though wrongful act of confounded self preservation.
We need real and rational immigration reform now.
Immigration into the US peaked in 2008 and has been falling ever since.
In our history, increases in immigration parallel, economic recovery.
We need to install a rational plan of options and temporary renewable visas for those who want to pursue a life of liberty and justice in the US.
It is who we are.
For if that immigrant, had no fear of being reported and deported, he may not have killed in a desperate, though wrongful act of confounded self preservation.
We need real and rational immigration reform now.
Immigration into the US peaked in 2008 and has been falling ever since.
In our history, increases in immigration parallel, economic recovery.
We need to install a rational plan of options and temporary renewable visas for those who want to pursue a life of liberty and justice in the US.
It is who we are.
19
By definition, every illegal immigrant has committed a crime - entering this country illegally. That would make them all criminals, they broke the law.
Now Liberals can try to twist this into their own rhetoric that these are nice people, etc., but they broke the law. Let's not forget that fact.
Now Liberals can try to twist this into their own rhetoric that these are nice people, etc., but they broke the law. Let's not forget that fact.
50
Well said, Andy Ostroy. Thank you for writing this. I am so sorry for your loss.
31
Thank you for speaking up and allowing your life to be an example of goodness in the face of evil. We cannot allow the xenophobia of Trump and his supporters to become a norm. We must rise as a people above such hatred and ill will that they project. I am deeply disturbed by the trend that Trump has started and the right wing seems to want to feed. Do we as a country want to become like Germany of the 1930' & 40's by scapegoating a people because of their difference? I surely hope not, I pray not, it would divide the nation and cause much suffering. What kind of leadership promotes division and hatred among its people? I'll tell you what I think; it is an irresponsible and yes, evil, let's call it what it really is, a person who is not a leader at all! Thank you for sharing this Mr. Ostroy, we need many more voices to challenge this evil trying to destroy innocent lives and our country.
39
Thank you for this.
Im having a hard time equating illegal immigrants with murder. The vast and overwhelming majority of murderers in this country are American citizens. The argument Mr. Trump makes is fear mongering, nothing more.
Im having a hard time equating illegal immigrants with murder. The vast and overwhelming majority of murderers in this country are American citizens. The argument Mr. Trump makes is fear mongering, nothing more.
12
Thank you for your courageous post, and for not letting the actions of one man define your attitude about everyone who resembles him. American society could learn a great deal from you. Thank you!
13
First I would like to say how much I admired your late wife and was deeply saddened by her early passing. I was a fan of her indie films and especially 'Waitress'. I can only imagine how difficult this has been for both you and your daughter.
I admire you for speaking out on this issue because Trump uses people as props and the crimes committed by some immigrants are also committed by citizens. In her case he was working nearby but him being an immigrant has no bearing on what happened. Violent people are not endemic of any race, origin or status. They just are.
We all can be victims and calling out one group as evil perpetrators serves no purpose except to someone like Trump as a tool to rile up his base. Trump cannot be elected. The stakes are too high. What we need is a comprehensive policy to deal with the undocumented and to continue a tradition in this country of welcoming immigrants to this country. The vetting of those of wish to join us is important in these times but banning groups instead of individuals who don't meet requirements is not the answer. Neither is smearing people for political gain.
I admire you for speaking out on this issue because Trump uses people as props and the crimes committed by some immigrants are also committed by citizens. In her case he was working nearby but him being an immigrant has no bearing on what happened. Violent people are not endemic of any race, origin or status. They just are.
We all can be victims and calling out one group as evil perpetrators serves no purpose except to someone like Trump as a tool to rile up his base. Trump cannot be elected. The stakes are too high. What we need is a comprehensive policy to deal with the undocumented and to continue a tradition in this country of welcoming immigrants to this country. The vetting of those of wish to join us is important in these times but banning groups instead of individuals who don't meet requirements is not the answer. Neither is smearing people for political gain.
19
I'm so sorry for your loss and thankful for your grace.
21
As an immigrant, by modern American standards, I have seen within my own extended family in this country a spectrum of behaviors and choices as to how to live their lives. I have never attributed their conduct to their citizenship status or how many generations away they are from our arrival in this country.
It wouldn't make sense, would it?
Ultimately we are individually responsible for what we choose to do.
Otherwise we blame (or credit) others for "allowing" us to do these things.
Which is exactly what Mr Trump and those who think along those lines are advocating for- a total lack of personal responsibility.
It wouldn't make sense, would it?
Ultimately we are individually responsible for what we choose to do.
Otherwise we blame (or credit) others for "allowing" us to do these things.
Which is exactly what Mr Trump and those who think along those lines are advocating for- a total lack of personal responsibility.
11
Mr. Ostroy has written an extraordinary article. He more than most would have every reason to demonize all immigrants and jump aboard the Trump hate train.
There are many good reasons for a humane immigration reform policy that provides a path to citizenship for millions of law-abiding but undocumented immigrants. (The sheer magnitude of trying to deport all illegals. The disruptions to the economy. Tearing families apart. Do we want to be like Nazi Germany when people "turned in" their Jewish neighbors?)
The anti-immigrant sentiment that says to deport all illegals because they should not be "rewarded" for their crime, is similar to the attitude of conservatives towards the inner-city poor. It's "their fault" they live in such conditions. They're all "takers." Etc.
If we would be a little more generous in our hearts, creating a path to citizenship would pay off in so many ways (take them out of the shadows, integrate them fully into American life) we would wonder what took us so long.
If Mr. Ostroy can see the benefit, everyone else should to.
There are many good reasons for a humane immigration reform policy that provides a path to citizenship for millions of law-abiding but undocumented immigrants. (The sheer magnitude of trying to deport all illegals. The disruptions to the economy. Tearing families apart. Do we want to be like Nazi Germany when people "turned in" their Jewish neighbors?)
The anti-immigrant sentiment that says to deport all illegals because they should not be "rewarded" for their crime, is similar to the attitude of conservatives towards the inner-city poor. It's "their fault" they live in such conditions. They're all "takers." Etc.
If we would be a little more generous in our hearts, creating a path to citizenship would pay off in so many ways (take them out of the shadows, integrate them fully into American life) we would wonder what took us so long.
If Mr. Ostroy can see the benefit, everyone else should to.
18
I'm very sad that your wife left us too young. I remember the case well. However, there is one inescapable truth: Had the illegal immigrant been prevented from entering our country, she would likely still be alive, a wife to her husband and a mother to her daughter.
46
Killers and criminals, in general, don't have the word Killer tattooed on their foreheads. They come in all shapes, sizes, gender and color. Like that, we can't generalize.
Republicans for eight years called Obama the black president. He's actually the President that happens to be black.
Anything different is pure straight racism.
Republicans for eight years called Obama the black president. He's actually the President that happens to be black.
Anything different is pure straight racism.
12
The author says "America was created by, is governed by and — with the exception of Native Americans — is inhabited by immigrants and their descendants..." We tend to forget that there is another group of people - descendants of African slaves, captured and forcibly brought here, who are also an exception.
12
Just like his wife's artistry, Mr. Ostroy's essay finds good in all people, refuses stereotyping and reminds us of America's ideals -- that as a nation of immigrants, and of laws, we need to employ compassion in both. "Waitress" was the amazing little gift Adrienne Shelley left behind as a tantalizing example of what we all lost in this senseless murder and I've been humming the theme song all day: "Baby don't you cry, Gonna make a pie, And hold you forever in the middle of my heart."
11
Andy,
I am sorry for your loss. I really am.
But I feel the need to point out that Trump Supporters do not accept "facts" or "truth".
They prefer innuendo and deplorable smears.
I am sorry for your loss. I really am.
But I feel the need to point out that Trump Supporters do not accept "facts" or "truth".
They prefer innuendo and deplorable smears.
10
Aren't you using her death to political ends to speak out against a political candidate?
38
Thank you for sharing your experience, please except my deepest condolences for your loss. It is so important to hear the voice of reason, when one of our candidates is espousing hate for "them." Your wife was murdered by a violent, desperate young man who just happened to be from South America. I am glad that hasn't made you hate hispanic immigrants. 150 years ago no one would have wanted to hire my family because they were Irish, its silly we still don't understand that most immigrants have worked hard once they reached our country. Trump should actually think of solutions to border control or how to help the inflow of uneducated farmers from mexico and other central american countries. Hate has never solved anything.
5
Thank you, for writing this piece. You show us the high road.
13
Your wife's killer was an illegal immigrant. She'd be alive if he was not allowed to reside in this country illegally.
You can face that, or not, but it doesn't change the facts.
You can face that, or not, but it doesn't change the facts.
62
The author’s assertion that America—with the exception of Native Americans—is inhabited by immigrants and their descendants” betrays either a subtle bias or an astonishing ignorance of American history. The ancestors of people we mistakenly referred to as Native Americas were also immigrants. The Amerindians migrated from Siberia to the Americas. They are not the “first Americans.” They did not become Americans until 1924 when Congress pass the Indian Citizenship Act. However, ancestry doesn’t determine citizenship status. An immigrant who attended his or her naturalization ceremony this morning is just as American as an American whose ancestors arrived aboard the Mayflower or crossed the prehistoric land bridge called Beringia. However, illegal immigrants are not Americans. They are foreign nationals.
31
Yes, Working Mama, it is unreasonable "to assume that someone who disregards the laws governing our borders and visas will have a cavalier attitude towards other laws." Having lived in several foreign countries myself, while I usually was able to do so legally, there where times when my visa could not be renewed and I overstayed. I didn't do so much as jaywalk, for fear of drawing attention to myself. If anything, studies have found that immigrants have LOWER crime rates than those here legally.
Do you speed? Did you have a drink before your 21st birthday? I assume that doesn't make you more likely to murder. It makes you human. Usually the choice to live in a country illegally is made out of necessity, not hubris.
Do you speed? Did you have a drink before your 21st birthday? I assume that doesn't make you more likely to murder. It makes you human. Usually the choice to live in a country illegally is made out of necessity, not hubris.
11
oh please....the disingenuous bend of this article is making me sick. The author's wife wasn't the only victim of an illegal immigrant. There are millions of other factors, such as identity theft, fraudulent documents, the terror attacks from immigrants seeking asylum (the Tsarnayev brothers). Not just the immigrants themselves, but their American born offspring, such as in the case of the terrorists who committed mass killings in San Bernandino and Orlando.
The duty of our elected officials, and law enforcement IS to protect our nation. The abdication of such duties, non enforcement and MORE incentives for illegal immigration endangers the innocent here.
And makes ALL immigrants suspect.
THAT is NOT the doing of Donald Trump, but the conversation HAS to happen.
Illegal immigration is CHEATING, it's demoralizing to the law abiding, and those suffering serious economic displacement by having to compete for dwindling resources with foreign labor. Whether insourced or outsourced.
It's a national disgrace that such crimes committed by illegal immigrants, could be PREVENTED and aren't, but for the twisted logic, that so much illegal immigration, has and continues to be a good thing that benefits this country.
What a lie.
And people like Adrienne Shelly paid the price for it.
The duty of our elected officials, and law enforcement IS to protect our nation. The abdication of such duties, non enforcement and MORE incentives for illegal immigration endangers the innocent here.
And makes ALL immigrants suspect.
THAT is NOT the doing of Donald Trump, but the conversation HAS to happen.
Illegal immigration is CHEATING, it's demoralizing to the law abiding, and those suffering serious economic displacement by having to compete for dwindling resources with foreign labor. Whether insourced or outsourced.
It's a national disgrace that such crimes committed by illegal immigrants, could be PREVENTED and aren't, but for the twisted logic, that so much illegal immigration, has and continues to be a good thing that benefits this country.
What a lie.
And people like Adrienne Shelly paid the price for it.
44
He entered the country illegally.
27
My Wife’s Killer Was Not an ‘Illegal Immigrant’
Actually, he was.
Actually, he was.
52
Thank you. You model what I would want to be and do if I were in you place. The idea that one rotten person stands for all of his kind is what will destroy Hunan society. Your column is awesome
9
Here is the thing. While I applaud your serenity. The murderers born in this country are our problem. We have to deal with them. Same goes for all criminals.
What we don't have to deal with is other countries criminals.
Even though the government tries to hide it(along with publications like this one), if you do some research you get a sense of how incredibly high the crime rate is in our immigrant population. There is no reason we should be losing citizens and dollars to other people's mess.
What we don't have to deal with is other countries criminals.
Even though the government tries to hide it(along with publications like this one), if you do some research you get a sense of how incredibly high the crime rate is in our immigrant population. There is no reason we should be losing citizens and dollars to other people's mess.
32
THANK YOU. So moved by your brilliant conscience.
4
Congratulations, Mr. Ostroy, for your tremendous strength and tenacity. I can not tell you I, or other\s, who have not had a murder alter our lives.
I want to tell you, I agree with you; Murderers commit murders, in their own nation or another they are in at the time.
Murder is our mutual enemy. And Mr. Trump's allusions to violence, which in its fullest is Murder, is abominable. Thank You for sharing this intimacy with us.
I want to tell you, I agree with you; Murderers commit murders, in their own nation or another they are in at the time.
Murder is our mutual enemy. And Mr. Trump's allusions to violence, which in its fullest is Murder, is abominable. Thank You for sharing this intimacy with us.
6
It still makes me sad whenever I think of Adrienne Shelley. She was such a bright talent, and her death was beyond senseless. It doesn't surprise me that she married such a thoughtful person.
14
Thank you for your harrowing display of character and patriotism.
1
clearly the killer was willing to do anything necessary to stay in the US where as the vast majority of immigrants would not be willing to go that far in protecting themselves. Perhaps the individual would have been able to control his murderous impulse if deportation had not been available as a motivation for his crime. one of the main reasons deportation is so popular is the misguided notion that jobs of real americans are being taken by immigrants. this of course is utter and complete nonsense. the economic contributions of immigrants far outweigh any of the costs associated with their undocumented status. and as we have seen in this case perhaps much of the crime associated with undocumented immigrants may be the result of their lack of documentation rather than their criminal natures. republicans and trumpinistas use this red herring because they know that they are losing the demographic battle for voters. the irony of that is that many immigrants have a conservative orientation and might vote republican if it were not for the efforts of republicans to deport them all.
1
I have long believed that the immigration problems could effectively begin to be resolved if we used the laws we already have on the books: ARREST and try the EMPLOYERS who hire the immigrants! No jobs = fewer immigrants who come here to work. Protect the immigrant from low wages (or no wages per some even more dishonest employers) no recourse to being almost slave labor with the threat of return to country of origin.
15
I remember this case rather well. It stood out for the sheer viciousness of the attack. In going back and reading over articles (including a NYT one) from the past, my understanding is that this illegal immigrant was not afraid of being reported. He was trying to rob his 5'1" victim, and police also suspect that rape was a possible motive. A nineteen year old man who described his actions of hanging this woman as similar to how he strung up pigs back Ecuador. A nineteen year old man who clearly had targeted and stalked his victim.
This illegal immigrant was a predator and, ultimately, a murderer. While I appreciate Mr. Ostroy's stance and am heartbroken over his and his daughter's loss, let's not pretend that Mr. Pillco killed his beloved wife over the fear of being deported.
This illegal immigrant was a predator and, ultimately, a murderer. While I appreciate Mr. Ostroy's stance and am heartbroken over his and his daughter's loss, let's not pretend that Mr. Pillco killed his beloved wife over the fear of being deported.
24
Let's not forget that the vast majority of undocumented aliens avoid breaking laws so they won't be deported.
7
I wonder then the Times will allow an op-ed piece from the other side?
Not holding my breath on this one.
Not holding my breath on this one.
31
Mr. Ostroy, I am deeply sorry for your loss. I am equally deeply in opposition to Mr. Trump and everything he stands for. But given your own words "he killed her fearing she would have him deported..." don't you wonder, if we had stronger border controls, perhaps your wife would be alive today?
24
This is sad. I mean someone died!
1
I am failing to see the difference here. Isn't it the case that if you in the country "undocumented" you are here illegally?
28
Now Diego has a home and 3 meals a day for the rest of his life. And perhaps he will earn a high school and college degree as well as applying for citizenship,
16
With all due respect to your wife's memory, and for your family's terrible loss, Mr. Ostroy, a cursory search on the details of the trial and lawsuits around it reveals that you actually brought suit against the construction company that Diego Pillco worked for on the day of your wife's murder. Evidently your claim was that the construction firm was liable because they never should have hired Diego Pillco because of his illegal status... and that the construction company was negligent on immigration checks due to cost savings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrienne_Shelly
This would have been a more convincing article had you articulated why you have had such a change of heart on this matter.
This would have been a more convincing article had you articulated why you have had such a change of heart on this matter.
38
The self-hatred and self-abasement of the Left knows no boundaries, as they feel compelled to virtue signal even about the depraved murder of their spouse.
27
Yes, your wife's murderer was an illegal. He broke our laws. He's an illegal. He thought he was above our laws. He and his fellow illegals are not entitled to dictate our laws and stay here after we said no.
74
Thank you for your kind and thoughtful piece, Mr. Ostroy. I can't imagine how you found the generosity of spirit and clarity to write this piece, after the loss you sustained.
33
The simple fact remains that had he not been allowed to illegally enter the
US, your wife would still be alive.
As for all of us being immigrants...save Native Americans.
Well the Native American immigrated here also.
How long do your ancestors have to be here before you stop
saying they are descended from Immigrants ?
In all honesty most people, who immigrated, to the US after 1789,
came for economic opportunity not because of persecution.
US, your wife would still be alive.
As for all of us being immigrants...save Native Americans.
Well the Native American immigrated here also.
How long do your ancestors have to be here before you stop
saying they are descended from Immigrants ?
In all honesty most people, who immigrated, to the US after 1789,
came for economic opportunity not because of persecution.
35
The odds of being injured or killed by an "undocumented" non-citizen are small compared to the odds of attack by a "documented" gun-toting US citizen. Why do we waste our time on this non-issue, when other dangers loom larger? I thank Mr. Ostroy for his words of sanity.
16
the killer was in fact an illegal immigrant. if he wasn't allowed in the country in the first place, the senseless murder would not have happened. pretending otherwise is foolish. and dangerous.
61
Mr. Ostroy, I am profoundly sorry for your and your daughter's loss. I find it honest that you blame the criminal element for your wife's murder. Your honesty has a blind spot when you fail to see that his undocumented status created the criminal. The fear and desperation of discovery of his immigrant status turned what might have been an otherwise mildly uncivil argument into a murder.
24
My condolences to you and your daughter. Thank you for sharing your nuanced perspective. Also thank you for not allowing the conservative media to take your story and distort it.
My husband and I were out at dinner Friday evening watching the chefs in the open kitchen. During a long-ranging conversation about the vulgarity of 2016 political climate, I thought of the men we saw working in that kitchen. All of them appeared to be of Latino descent, as are the many men my spouse has worked with as a construction project manager. We are a nation of immigrants, even those of us who were brought here against our will (a conversation for another time). Within in all groups of people, one can find unsavory and/or criminal elements. That doesn't and shouldn't condemn an entire ethnic group.
As an black person in America, I know what that feels like.
If one wants to be so smugly self-righteous about who comes here, then one needs to be prepared NOT to have access to all of the cultural offerings that immigrants bring to America; all of which I find boring at least, hypocritical, disturbing, and racist.
My husband and I were out at dinner Friday evening watching the chefs in the open kitchen. During a long-ranging conversation about the vulgarity of 2016 political climate, I thought of the men we saw working in that kitchen. All of them appeared to be of Latino descent, as are the many men my spouse has worked with as a construction project manager. We are a nation of immigrants, even those of us who were brought here against our will (a conversation for another time). Within in all groups of people, one can find unsavory and/or criminal elements. That doesn't and shouldn't condemn an entire ethnic group.
As an black person in America, I know what that feels like.
If one wants to be so smugly self-righteous about who comes here, then one needs to be prepared NOT to have access to all of the cultural offerings that immigrants bring to America; all of which I find boring at least, hypocritical, disturbing, and racist.
12
Mr. Ostroy, you're a very generous and kind man...
And the loss to your daughter is irreplaceable. At the same time you're defending a two-time offender who knowingly broke the law first by being illegally in the country, and second by committing cold blooded murder...
Did one lead to another we will never find and it "doesn't matter", as your favorite candidate said during congressional hearings about death of US ambassador to Libya... But then what does... If law is not upheld the results are what we have. Maybe Trump is an opportunist and unworthy to be President. But we'all gotta stop being duplicitous and decide either we're country of Law or the Lawless...
And the loss to your daughter is irreplaceable. At the same time you're defending a two-time offender who knowingly broke the law first by being illegally in the country, and second by committing cold blooded murder...
Did one lead to another we will never find and it "doesn't matter", as your favorite candidate said during congressional hearings about death of US ambassador to Libya... But then what does... If law is not upheld the results are what we have. Maybe Trump is an opportunist and unworthy to be President. But we'all gotta stop being duplicitous and decide either we're country of Law or the Lawless...
39
You are a saint, perhaps literally. We can't begin to relieve your grief, but your willingness to see past the anger you must feel is an inspiration
14
Trust and The Unbelievable Truth etched Adrienne Shelly into my consciousness forever, safe from the predatory machinations of Fox News.
10
sorry for your loss.
8
Your story is as compelling as it is spot on - the truth is that there are bad actors - criminals - in our country who are here both legally and illegally. There are folks who skirt the law by staying in the country past their visas and there are folks who obtain their green cards illegally. There are "illegal immigrants" who rape women, and there are citizens of America, born and raised here, who do the same, or who treat women disrespectfully and who think they can do what they want with them because they happen to be rich.
And yes, we ARE all immigrants to this country, or descendants of immigrants, unless we are native American OR Mexican Americans, whose ancestors settled here when those western states belonged to Mexico. We must have compassion for those who came behind us.
And yes, we ARE all immigrants to this country, or descendants of immigrants, unless we are native American OR Mexican Americans, whose ancestors settled here when those western states belonged to Mexico. We must have compassion for those who came behind us.
12
Thank you so much for this article. I love Adrienne Shelley's move Waitress. It really touched my heart at a time when I really needed it. I was so shocked to hear about her murder and was horrified that it was an illegal Ecuadorean immigrant- just like my parents. Over the years I have wondered how this might affect someone like you, who has fallen victim to a criminal's horrific acts. Would you now see us all as dangerous? Would you feel hate in your heart for anyone like Diego? It upset me because I didn't want people to think that all immigrants were like that. I didn't want people to think ill of people like my parents. I almost felt guilty just by association, being Ecuadorean myself. I know it probably sounds like I'm making this about myself, and I'm sorry if I am.
This piece is so powerful. I am sorry for your loss. I truly am. When Waitress came out, my parents had just been deported. I felt as lonely and as lost as Jenna. Wondering what would happen to my life. I admired her strength and resolve. It is still my favorite movie.
Thank you so much for your article. Thank you for not letting this tragic thing color your heart with hate. Thank you. I think it speaks volumes about you.
With love,
Jess from Denver.
This piece is so powerful. I am sorry for your loss. I truly am. When Waitress came out, my parents had just been deported. I felt as lonely and as lost as Jenna. Wondering what would happen to my life. I admired her strength and resolve. It is still my favorite movie.
Thank you so much for your article. Thank you for not letting this tragic thing color your heart with hate. Thank you. I think it speaks volumes about you.
With love,
Jess from Denver.
92
Has it occurred to anyone that more undocumented aliens have been murdered by American citizens than vice versa?
22
You are a strong man. You are a good man. I am deeply sorry for your loss and as the proud daughter of Latino immigrants, grateful for your compassion. Thank you.
76
Mr. Ostroy, I am deeply sorry for the loss you and your daughter suffered in 2006, and, I am sure, suffer every day. I am also deeply grateful for this piece you have written, It is important for people to understand that not everyone who enters this country, legally or not, does so to kill, rape and pillage American citizens.
Everyone in this country, including Donald Trump, is descended from immigrants. HIs paternal grandparents camne here from Germany. His grandfather, Frederick Trump (Drumpf), emigrated to the United States in 1885. He returned to Germany in 1901 to marry Elisabeth Christ and returned to the United States in 1902. While his paternal grandfather became a U.S. citizen in 1892, it is unclear whether his grandmother ever did. Trump's mother, Mary Anne Macleod, emigrated to the United States from Scotland in 1929 and became an American citizen 1942. Trump's grandfather engaged in some shady business dealings and his father was clearly a racist. These facts do not fall to level of depravity of a murderer, but they do shed light on the fact that how people behave and act has to do with who they are as people and not their immigration status.
Thank you for your sound, well reasoned opinion piece. It honors your wife and hopefully will enlighten people as to the vision you both have for our country.
Everyone in this country, including Donald Trump, is descended from immigrants. HIs paternal grandparents camne here from Germany. His grandfather, Frederick Trump (Drumpf), emigrated to the United States in 1885. He returned to Germany in 1901 to marry Elisabeth Christ and returned to the United States in 1902. While his paternal grandfather became a U.S. citizen in 1892, it is unclear whether his grandmother ever did. Trump's mother, Mary Anne Macleod, emigrated to the United States from Scotland in 1929 and became an American citizen 1942. Trump's grandfather engaged in some shady business dealings and his father was clearly a racist. These facts do not fall to level of depravity of a murderer, but they do shed light on the fact that how people behave and act has to do with who they are as people and not their immigration status.
Thank you for your sound, well reasoned opinion piece. It honors your wife and hopefully will enlighten people as to the vision you both have for our country.
9
I am the descendant of illegal immigrants. Some of my ancestors came here in 1620. They didn't ask anybody's permission. Fortunately, the people who were already here hadn't built a Big Beautiful Wall. In fact, some of the indigenous people even helped the Pilgrims when they didn't have enough food. That's why all Americans now celebrate Thanksgiving.
My wife is also the descendant of illegals. Some apparently came around 1000AD. And some of them WERE killers (& possibly rapists), because they apparently wiped out an earlier group of Hawaiians who came generations earlier. Others came from China 150 years ago, also without asking anybody's permission. Some of them may even have lied their way in.
America is great already, not in spite of immigrants but because of immigrants. Let's celebrate that by voting for people with a positive & hopeful message.
My wife is also the descendant of illegals. Some apparently came around 1000AD. And some of them WERE killers (& possibly rapists), because they apparently wiped out an earlier group of Hawaiians who came generations earlier. Others came from China 150 years ago, also without asking anybody's permission. Some of them may even have lied their way in.
America is great already, not in spite of immigrants but because of immigrants. Let's celebrate that by voting for people with a positive & hopeful message.
9
I regret hearing of your wife murder. My father was murdered in a robbery but his killers have never been caught.
If my wife was murdered by anyone, and I became aware of who that person is and I was to make a decision in his or her case, I would love to carve up that person with a nice and sharp ceramic sushi knife and feed him or her to the sharks. That is what I would want, I would have no qualms about doing it myself, and I would feel good and happy about it. What my wife would feel well, she would no longer be around to make that decision so it will be my decision. I will NOT be satisfied with 25 years or life, or anything... only that carving knife will do or a good nice injection from the Great State of Texas.
If my wife was murdered by anyone, and I became aware of who that person is and I was to make a decision in his or her case, I would love to carve up that person with a nice and sharp ceramic sushi knife and feed him or her to the sharks. That is what I would want, I would have no qualms about doing it myself, and I would feel good and happy about it. What my wife would feel well, she would no longer be around to make that decision so it will be my decision. I will NOT be satisfied with 25 years or life, or anything... only that carving knife will do or a good nice injection from the Great State of Texas.
16
This article is a prime Orwellian example of how the media and the left are trying to condition the public to accept illegal immigration even when it leads to murder. They all broke the law and people who break the law are criminals by definition, ergo, the killer was an illegal immigrant.
59
"But Adrienne was not murdered by an illegal immigrant, per se. She fell victim to a depraved killer who simply happened to be an undocumented immigrant."
But the English language was not murdered by Mr. Ostroy, per se. It fell victim to an Orwellian newspeak that simply happened to serve a political purpose.
But the English language was not murdered by Mr. Ostroy, per se. It fell victim to an Orwellian newspeak that simply happened to serve a political purpose.
69
I am so tired of these emotional sob stories. Why can't the NYT actually prove to me that illegal immigration is making America a better place. If they could prove to me that illegal immigration is rising wages and creating jobs, I'll be all about open borders. However, they dont. They obfuscate, trying I pander to liberals emotions. It works, people read these stories and say, "he is right, illegal immigrants didn't break any laws, they are just undocumented. He is right, open borders would have prevented this immigrant from being afraid of deportation, however, he would have murdered this woman regardless because he is crazy."
I don't care about this guy or his story. There are 300 million stories in America, and I'm sure the NYT has its pick of them to help sway our minds.
I don't care and I don't listen to arguments that try to sway my emotions. I want numbers. I want data. The NYT will not change my mind until they prove to me unequivocally that illegal immigrants don't take jobs from unskilled blacks and whites and legal immigrants, that illegal immigrantion actually leads to more jobs, and that illegal immigration leads to higher wages. Until then, all the sob stories in the world won't change my mind. I know there are 7 billion sob stories on earth, including my own. The NYT is trying to do to liberals what Trump did to conservatives. They are trying to blind them with emotion into supporting things that may actually hurt them.
I don't care about this guy or his story. There are 300 million stories in America, and I'm sure the NYT has its pick of them to help sway our minds.
I don't care and I don't listen to arguments that try to sway my emotions. I want numbers. I want data. The NYT will not change my mind until they prove to me unequivocally that illegal immigrants don't take jobs from unskilled blacks and whites and legal immigrants, that illegal immigrantion actually leads to more jobs, and that illegal immigration leads to higher wages. Until then, all the sob stories in the world won't change my mind. I know there are 7 billion sob stories on earth, including my own. The NYT is trying to do to liberals what Trump did to conservatives. They are trying to blind them with emotion into supporting things that may actually hurt them.
72
It is important that in this case the criminal will be deported at the end of the sentence, unlike a person would stay within the same borders. Upon completion of the sentence, a legal resident would be returned to the community and Mr. Ostroy would have to deal with the potential threat that the convicted murderer would still be subject to his impulses.
10
He feared she would have him deported, so he killed her, and the fact of her murder has nothing to do with the killer's immigration status? Those are some quite occluded spectacles through which the author is trying to view the event.
It is rarely the case that crimes are perpetuated by the illegal immigrant (outside of the fact of being in the country illegally) because of their immigration status. It is far more common that crimes are committed upon the illegal immigrant--be it workplace abuse or domestic violence or theft or exploitation generally, and particularly in employment--because they fear coming out of the shadows to report the crimes.
It is not the answer to simply neglect or refuse to enforce our own laws. If we are to be a nation of laws and not men, the enforcement of law can't be arbitrarily up to the Chief Executive. Yet that's precisely what Hillary pledges to do; she's essentially campaigning for an office on the platform that, when it comes to immigration law, she won't perform its duties.
There are a host of people who very much like that we have 11 million or so people living in the shadows, ready for exploitation. A great many of those people belong to the capitalist establishment that supports Hillary. They want and believe they need a permanent underclass to exploit.
Americans are getting wise to the shenanigans. It's why Trump, and before him, Sanders, have made anointing Hillary such a hard thing to do.
It is rarely the case that crimes are perpetuated by the illegal immigrant (outside of the fact of being in the country illegally) because of their immigration status. It is far more common that crimes are committed upon the illegal immigrant--be it workplace abuse or domestic violence or theft or exploitation generally, and particularly in employment--because they fear coming out of the shadows to report the crimes.
It is not the answer to simply neglect or refuse to enforce our own laws. If we are to be a nation of laws and not men, the enforcement of law can't be arbitrarily up to the Chief Executive. Yet that's precisely what Hillary pledges to do; she's essentially campaigning for an office on the platform that, when it comes to immigration law, she won't perform its duties.
There are a host of people who very much like that we have 11 million or so people living in the shadows, ready for exploitation. A great many of those people belong to the capitalist establishment that supports Hillary. They want and believe they need a permanent underclass to exploit.
Americans are getting wise to the shenanigans. It's why Trump, and before him, Sanders, have made anointing Hillary such a hard thing to do.
36
“They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime, their rapists...”
I fixed that typo for you. That's how I heard the speech, and how people not looking for reasons to call Trump a racist heard it.
I agree with your point that we need a path to citizenship for nonviolent offenders, but only because it's impactical to deport them all. We should fortify the border, make our quasi-amnesty play, and then set a date where at all points in the future, anyone will be deported. Amnesty should only be occurring because our government has failed previously to contain the problem.
I fixed that typo for you. That's how I heard the speech, and how people not looking for reasons to call Trump a racist heard it.
I agree with your point that we need a path to citizenship for nonviolent offenders, but only because it's impactical to deport them all. We should fortify the border, make our quasi-amnesty play, and then set a date where at all points in the future, anyone will be deported. Amnesty should only be occurring because our government has failed previously to contain the problem.
10
You say this man feared that she would report him and he would be deported. Would he have had that fear if he came here through legal channels? It seems his status was central to this terrible crime.
Mr. Trump has repeatedly said that he does not seek to ban immigration, merely immigration of the sort where we have no idea who is coming into our communities and what they are doing. If 98% of them are people who are just seeking work and want a better life for their family, then why wouldn't we at least want to know who those people are and give them the chance to participate in our country to its fullest?
Mr. Trump has repeatedly said that he does not seek to ban immigration, merely immigration of the sort where we have no idea who is coming into our communities and what they are doing. If 98% of them are people who are just seeking work and want a better life for their family, then why wouldn't we at least want to know who those people are and give them the chance to participate in our country to its fullest?
65
My daughter was murdered by a hispanic, who was a naturalized citizen. I don't hold Hispanics responsible, nor do I think his ethnicity had anything to do with his crime. He was bad. His family has agreed with this judgement, and were horrified by his actions.
Bad people exist, they do bad things. if we accept others as equals, not as races or ethnicities, these evil acts find an origin. To hate is exhausting and pointless. I tried.
Bad people exist, they do bad things. if we accept others as equals, not as races or ethnicities, these evil acts find an origin. To hate is exhausting and pointless. I tried.
123
Bravo Andy
It is awfully brave of you to bare your soul so honestly and so publically. You are a voice of reason and hopefully this will encourage the many other voices of reason in our country to come forward and engage in thoughtful discussions of important issues.
Bullying is obviously not limited to children. Our country needs training in how to overcome the many bullies in our culture who try to impose their point of view and refuse to listen to those who disagree. We must all continue to speak up and to try to engage those with opposing viewpoints in the hopes of reaching some kind of common ground.
Thank you for showing us the way.
It is awfully brave of you to bare your soul so honestly and so publically. You are a voice of reason and hopefully this will encourage the many other voices of reason in our country to come forward and engage in thoughtful discussions of important issues.
Bullying is obviously not limited to children. Our country needs training in how to overcome the many bullies in our culture who try to impose their point of view and refuse to listen to those who disagree. We must all continue to speak up and to try to engage those with opposing viewpoints in the hopes of reaching some kind of common ground.
Thank you for showing us the way.
2
My deepest sympathies to the writer for his awful loss --- but 25 years without the chance of parole does not strike me as "lenient." In most of the democratic world, that sentence would be seen as fairly draconian.
1
Seems to me Diego Pillco's heinous act is easily attributed to his immigration status: it wasn't for his fear of being deported, Adrienne would probably still be alive. So a more humane immigration policy could have made the difference between a quarrel and a murder.
9
While I would prefer that there were no illegal residents in the US I just can't understand statements like "Your daughter would still have a mother and you would still have a beautiful family for not that illegal alien." as if all illegal immigrants were banished there would be no crime. No victims. As if legal residents and citizens don't commit crimes or that it is somehow better to be the victim of a citizen.
6
I'm sorry but it seems to me that if one is willing to enter a country illegally and remain there without legal status, one already shows a propensity to breaking the laws of the unwitting host country. It also seems to me that those predisposed to breaking the laws of their resident country are not those who will make good citizens.
I'm truly sorry for your loss, but had he either been prevented entry or forced to leave when his visa expired, your wife would still be alive and parenting your daughter.
I'm truly sorry for your loss, but had he either been prevented entry or forced to leave when his visa expired, your wife would still be alive and parenting your daughter.
29
For the families and loved ones of murder victims, it's never truly finished. Murderers will use any pathetic excuse they can to explain away and justify their horrors, heedless of the costs to anyone else. Their supreme selfishness is the first step, after all, towards their crimes and to be expected. But it's incredibly painful to have supposedly "good" people ( of all political stripes) act with exactly the same kind of insensitive sociopathy and use our tragedies for whatever ends they feel socially or politically justified to. All the time never even caring about how they're extending or magnifying our pain.
1
Where does one begin with the fallacies and contradictory statements in this piece? To begin with, the headline is literally false (where is PolitiFact when you need it?). I thought the piece would be about how someone's murder was erroneously publicized as being committed by an illegal ("undocumented") alien; but no, the author's wife really was murdered by an illegal immigrant. The author goes on to disingenuously conflate our desire to stop illegal immigrants with hatred of "immigrants." Well, no, you can agree that the U.S. is a country of immigrants, but still believe we have to secure the border. Then, after equating a desire to secure the border with racism and xenophobia, the author concludes that "the country must do more to secure its borders." Well, wait a minute, isn't that a form of the xenophobia that you just decried? Unfortunately, the double-speak in this piece is a good example of the left's absurd position on immigration. As Trump has said, secure the border first, then deal humanely with the population that remains. If you do the latter first, all you will do is ensure another illegal wave of border-crossings - yes, with mostly good, hardworking people, but also people of the type that killed this guy's wife.
39
What a powerful, persuasive , humane and sad piece this is. And also sadly, he should be prepared to receive some pretty negative comments and even worse from the extremists who like to parade the tragedy of lost lives such as this one as fuel for their hatred.
3
Although I support immigration reform I do not support Orwellian double speak. The person was here in violation of immigration laws; that means he is an illegal immigrant. If he were merely an undocumented immigrant would mean neighborhood drug dealers are merely undocumented pharmacists and loan sharks merely undocumented bankers. Arguing for immigration reform doesn't mean we must violate the meaning of words in order to tell our story. He was an illegal immigrant; he was also a person. A thief or shoplifter is not just in the midst of an incomplete sale transaction. They are also people. We can argue for the humanity of others and how we treat them without violating the meaning of words.
36
Still, we should never hesitate to hurl criminals and jihadists over the border. We tend to treat all criminals as similar and let sympathy for drug users and various knuckleheads to generalizewash over onto violent criminals- who deserve only the minimally required level of mercy and justice. the first priority is to protect the non-offenders.
4
It is sad that big-city progressives feel more connected to their corrupt political party than they are to their own family. Am I surpriosed? No
30
I wish to thank Mr. Ostroy for his comments. His loss must be deep and painful and I appreciate his refusal to make it part of a deeply politicized immigration debate.
We had a somewhat similar situation in San Francisco. An undocumented immigrant was released from federal custody to San Francisco to face charges on an expired drug warrant. Knowing he would not be tried on the warrant, San Francisco released him and he joined a small army of homeless people here. Soon later, by his explanation, he found a pistol wrapped in a t-shirt on a wharf frequented by tourists. While he was toying with the pistol it discharged and killed a young woman who was visiting San Francisco with her family.
The pistol was not aimed at the tourist but ricocheted off the dock before fatally striking her. The pistol was recovered from the bay and found to have been stolen from the car of a federal agent. Car break-ins are rampant in San Francisco and more recently there was another person killed by a pistol stolen from a car.
What became the focus of the case was that the shooting was done by an undocumented immigrant. This line was adopted by Mr. Trump, Fox News, and some local politicians as if the fact that he was an undocumented immigrant explained why the shooting took place. But if you accept the suspect’s explanation that he found the gun on the wharf, the same crime could have been committed by another (documented) homeless person or a 5-year-old boy.
We had a somewhat similar situation in San Francisco. An undocumented immigrant was released from federal custody to San Francisco to face charges on an expired drug warrant. Knowing he would not be tried on the warrant, San Francisco released him and he joined a small army of homeless people here. Soon later, by his explanation, he found a pistol wrapped in a t-shirt on a wharf frequented by tourists. While he was toying with the pistol it discharged and killed a young woman who was visiting San Francisco with her family.
The pistol was not aimed at the tourist but ricocheted off the dock before fatally striking her. The pistol was recovered from the bay and found to have been stolen from the car of a federal agent. Car break-ins are rampant in San Francisco and more recently there was another person killed by a pistol stolen from a car.
What became the focus of the case was that the shooting was done by an undocumented immigrant. This line was adopted by Mr. Trump, Fox News, and some local politicians as if the fact that he was an undocumented immigrant explained why the shooting took place. But if you accept the suspect’s explanation that he found the gun on the wharf, the same crime could have been committed by another (documented) homeless person or a 5-year-old boy.
2
An emotional 'letter' to all of us, in spite of a personal loss from thoughtless criminal action demanding justice, Yes, the thug happened to be a non-documented immigrant. But many more do occur at the hands of home-grown thugs. That Mr. Ostroy was/is able to forgive, to rid his soul from hate, does allow him to live fully, and love again, the only redemptive way to remain human, to accept each other's imperfections, and yet the need to engage and move on. My hat off to you!
1
Thank you for your well thought out and well written piece. I have posted regarding this issue before, as I have work as immigration attorney for many years. Where I live, undocumented workers are a formidable part of the economy, forming the principal labor force which milks the cows, sorts potatoes, and handles a multitude of agricultural tasks. They are homeowners, business owners, and they are generally enthusiastic promoters of their children's education and their desire for their children to move forward in life. Are there bad ones? Of course there are but I would agree with the writer, and that those individuals reflect their own individual shortcomings and do not represent a collective desire to commit crime. I will take any day of the week, the Jose Garcias of this world, who leave behind their families, often in dire poverty, to expose themselves to the dangers of crossing the the desert with the promise of working 12 - 14 hours milking cows, moving sprinkler pipe, sorting potatoes, picking apples, lettuce and the other things which puts food on our table. They have the fire in their bellies which makes this country great, that same fire has been extinguished in the likes of Donald Trump and Ann Coulter. However I think we could reignite it if Trump and Ms. Coulter would like, I can certainly find them some honest labor to do.
Such a heartbreaking tragedy, condolences to you and your family.
Yet historically borders are there for a very good reasons. One being protection from the enemy.
In order to have a sovereign state we must adhere to this idea or we no longer have a nation.
Unfortunately at this time we have no idea who we are letting into our country half the time. And unfortunately some are very dangerous.
This was a one on one crime. There are others who come here illegally who wish for mass destruction. We must weed them all out and keep them there for the safety of the general public. Whether a murderer or a terrorist.
Yet historically borders are there for a very good reasons. One being protection from the enemy.
In order to have a sovereign state we must adhere to this idea or we no longer have a nation.
Unfortunately at this time we have no idea who we are letting into our country half the time. And unfortunately some are very dangerous.
This was a one on one crime. There are others who come here illegally who wish for mass destruction. We must weed them all out and keep them there for the safety of the general public. Whether a murderer or a terrorist.
15
"Mr. Trump often claims that two million undocumented immigrants have been convicted of crimes, but in fact the figure is actually 176,000, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement." Now that makes me feel better. "The reality is, Americans have appreciably more to fear from their fellow citizens than from undocumented immigrants." And that's a reason to allow llegal aleins in to the US? He was an illlegal alein. An indocumented worker from another nation is, by definition, illegal and alien. Trump has never said immigrants aren't wanted. Indeed, in 2012 he explicit;ly excluded the deportation those illegals who have actually contributed to the United States. "“Because I also understand how, as an example, you have people in this country for 20 years, they’ve done a great job, they’ve done wonderfully, they’ve gone to school, they’ve gotten good marks, they’re productive — now we’re supposed to send them out of the country, I don’t believe in that, Michelle, and you understand that,” he told the host. “I don’t believe in a lot things that are being said.” You're rationalization to avoid sayng your wife's murderer was not an illegal alien but simply an undocumented worker is one of the most twisted and deluded rationalizations I have ever heard.
17
The main stream media is hyping identity politics when clearly this is a question of law and order only. When society approves the substitution of identity politics for law and order, that society is well and truly doomed because that means it has already lost all sense of standard that otherwise could be used to regulate and protect itself from its own excesses, whatever excesses they might be.
14
Can we please stop with this false equivalence between those who immigrate to this country legally and those who immigrate illegally?
If I were to walk into a place of business and sit there, the company would not be obligated to pay me simply because I'm occupying space. If I started cleaning the bathroom, I am not suddenly an employee and the company would have no obligation to pay me. There is a process to employment. Employers have the prerogative to select incoming employees.
Similarly, if I were to sit in classes at a university for 4 years, I would not be entitled to a diploma. Even if I wasn't disruptive and contributed to classroom discussion, I would still have failed to meet the entrance requirements for the school and therefore, would not have the same status as those who bothered to apply and who met the requirements for attendance. There is a process to admission to a university. Universities have the prerogative to select incoming students.
Those who arrive in the United States do not have the status of citizenship or legal residence simply because they are here. They might mostly be wonderful people, but they are not the same as those who went through the legal processes necessary to live here as citizens or legal immigrants. There is a process to legal immigration status and citizenship. Countries have the prerogative to select immigrants.
If I were to walk into a place of business and sit there, the company would not be obligated to pay me simply because I'm occupying space. If I started cleaning the bathroom, I am not suddenly an employee and the company would have no obligation to pay me. There is a process to employment. Employers have the prerogative to select incoming employees.
Similarly, if I were to sit in classes at a university for 4 years, I would not be entitled to a diploma. Even if I wasn't disruptive and contributed to classroom discussion, I would still have failed to meet the entrance requirements for the school and therefore, would not have the same status as those who bothered to apply and who met the requirements for attendance. There is a process to admission to a university. Universities have the prerogative to select incoming students.
Those who arrive in the United States do not have the status of citizenship or legal residence simply because they are here. They might mostly be wonderful people, but they are not the same as those who went through the legal processes necessary to live here as citizens or legal immigrants. There is a process to legal immigration status and citizenship. Countries have the prerogative to select immigrants.
31
The Times and the Democratic party has a real blind spot on this issue, and they have made a choice to support those here illegally over poor Americans. This is one of the reasons that voters that might have previously supported Democrats find themselves supporting Republicans.
It's a simple supply and demand situation. With more low-cost labor, wages are reduced and jobs are more difficult to find. But, because it's not the jobs of the liberal elite that are threatened, but the jobs of poor Americans (probably a considerable number of black and Hispanic workers), that the liberal elite continue their misguided support of a policy that is detrimental to the poorest of Americans.
It's a simple supply and demand situation. With more low-cost labor, wages are reduced and jobs are more difficult to find. But, because it's not the jobs of the liberal elite that are threatened, but the jobs of poor Americans (probably a considerable number of black and Hispanic workers), that the liberal elite continue their misguided support of a policy that is detrimental to the poorest of Americans.
26
I am terribly sorry for your loss. Substitute "black" for "illegal immigrant" and the same people would be screaming (albeit in more subtle language) about how that was the cause of the crime. I appreciate that the writer understands that tens of thousands of people are murdered every year by people who have never set foot outside the US. Immigration status is no more the cause of a crime than race.
Would Ms Shelly be alive if her killer had stayed in Ecuador? Not been afraid of deportation? She may have encountered a different killer or been mugged on the street. We will never know.
It is impossible to keep illegal immigrants out. As long as there are situations where people are willing to leave everything and live like fugitives for a better life, we will have immigrants. Most illegal immigrants are here because there is no legal path to immigration for them. Unless someone has several million dollars to invest, a skill set to get employer sponsorship or have a family member who can sponsor them, a person from Mexico or Central America is not getting in. They are not even eligible for the lottery for the few open slots.
Would Ms Shelly be alive if her killer had stayed in Ecuador? Not been afraid of deportation? She may have encountered a different killer or been mugged on the street. We will never know.
It is impossible to keep illegal immigrants out. As long as there are situations where people are willing to leave everything and live like fugitives for a better life, we will have immigrants. Most illegal immigrants are here because there is no legal path to immigration for them. Unless someone has several million dollars to invest, a skill set to get employer sponsorship or have a family member who can sponsor them, a person from Mexico or Central America is not getting in. They are not even eligible for the lottery for the few open slots.
Guns and immigration. It is totally amazing that conservatives still feel such deep fear and the object of that fear are immigrants, anybody but the people who foment the fear and offer the victims, their leaders, who would deny them access to the real tools of a safe life: education, health care, a strong pension system and a reasonably secure access to jobs and income.
It is a world built on the concept that there are only winners and losers and it is permitted to live any lie to be a winner. The core concept of conservatism is power and dominance and scapegoats are persistently offered to deflect the fact that, in their system, there are so few winners and mostly losers.
It is a world built on the concept that there are only winners and losers and it is permitted to live any lie to be a winner. The core concept of conservatism is power and dominance and scapegoats are persistently offered to deflect the fact that, in their system, there are so few winners and mostly losers.
Thank you Mr Ostroy for your thoughts and the fine commentary. I am so sorry for your loss.
To all those who bring up some interesting contrarian arguments, Mr. Ostroy's point was simply that malicious criminal intent exists everywhere. And we need not draw a strong correlation between the 2 because it's so easy and convenient in this case. For all those who say that every undocumented worker is already breaking the law and is hence undeserving of the presumption of innocence we grant every other US citizen, you are drawing too simplistic a conclusion.
The one choice they make to enter this country (and other western countries) illegally is often a desperate one. It is often to survive against all odds in areas full of gang wars, crime and drugs. They do not become a general population of law-breakers because of this one act. If anything, their status makes them overly sensitive to committing crimes - freedom has come at such a heavy price. They'd do anything to protect it and not get caught. Unfortunately in this case, it was a mad man who decided to murder to save himself from that fate. And that's the difference. He was a mad man - just as we have so many others in this country with guns do the same.
To all those who bring up some interesting contrarian arguments, Mr. Ostroy's point was simply that malicious criminal intent exists everywhere. And we need not draw a strong correlation between the 2 because it's so easy and convenient in this case. For all those who say that every undocumented worker is already breaking the law and is hence undeserving of the presumption of innocence we grant every other US citizen, you are drawing too simplistic a conclusion.
The one choice they make to enter this country (and other western countries) illegally is often a desperate one. It is often to survive against all odds in areas full of gang wars, crime and drugs. They do not become a general population of law-breakers because of this one act. If anything, their status makes them overly sensitive to committing crimes - freedom has come at such a heavy price. They'd do anything to protect it and not get caught. Unfortunately in this case, it was a mad man who decided to murder to save himself from that fate. And that's the difference. He was a mad man - just as we have so many others in this country with guns do the same.
The problem of immigration, both through legal avenues and outside the legal process, is a difficult one. With a world population exceeding 7 billion, and heading toward 9 billion, something is going to have to give. Can (and should) the US, and other Western democracies, become essentially gated communities to protect our way of life?
Many of the estimated 11 million undocumented people are essentially law abiding (other than their immigration status), contributing as much to the country as most citizens. To me, they are not the problem.
The real problem is what to do with all the refugees created by our failed policies: the so called "war on drugs", which has created the drug wars going on in Mexico, Central and South America; and our repeated blunders in the Middle East including by far the greatest foreign policy blunder in our history, the illegal invasion of Iraq.
We need to do three things. (1) End the war on drugs and treat drugs as medical issues, rather than legal issues.
(2) Get out of the Middle East. Yes, we broke it; but there is no way we can fix it and to even try just exacerbates the problems.
(3) Start promoting family planning world wide, even in the face of accusations of racism and religious opposition. Solving the population problem requires that women world wide have a say in their own reproductive lives. If women have a choice of how many children they have, and the timing of their pregnancies, the problem will solve itself.
Many of the estimated 11 million undocumented people are essentially law abiding (other than their immigration status), contributing as much to the country as most citizens. To me, they are not the problem.
The real problem is what to do with all the refugees created by our failed policies: the so called "war on drugs", which has created the drug wars going on in Mexico, Central and South America; and our repeated blunders in the Middle East including by far the greatest foreign policy blunder in our history, the illegal invasion of Iraq.
We need to do three things. (1) End the war on drugs and treat drugs as medical issues, rather than legal issues.
(2) Get out of the Middle East. Yes, we broke it; but there is no way we can fix it and to even try just exacerbates the problems.
(3) Start promoting family planning world wide, even in the face of accusations of racism and religious opposition. Solving the population problem requires that women world wide have a say in their own reproductive lives. If women have a choice of how many children they have, and the timing of their pregnancies, the problem will solve itself.
4
Of course if the government didn't fail in its mission to secure the borders this maniac would not have been in the country to kill anyone If the government had not failed in its mission to deport illegal aliens, which is what he was, undocumented means illegal, he would not have been here to kill anyone. Yes, even citizens kill, but since we have to put up with that, I see no need to import people who are vicious killers. No one is demonizing those not born here. However, we are a country of laws, and there is no need to coddle those who think our laws don't apply to them, flagrantly disobey them, and then complain about their treatment here, when they don't belong here in the first place. By coddling these illegals and giving them everything under the sun from education to health care, and whatever else they can take, we just encourage more people to do the same. You may be able to forgive, but there are many family members and victims who see no need to do so. As a country of laws we should not be apologizing for securing our borders and prosecuting those who break those laws.
23
Mr. Ostroy is an extraordinary person. I thank him for sharing his opinion in such an emotional context. I believe in the last debate, Hillary Clinton spoke to her belief that we should expel illegal immigrants who are violent criminals. That would appear to apply to this murderer. The challenge would be to identify them as such and deport them before, as happened here, they kill innocent people. It will not be easy to balance the goal of giving a path to citizenship for deserving immigrants with the challenge of removing the criminals. Mistakes will be made and people will argue about which mistake is worse, expelling a decent person versus letting a criminal stay.
2
Thank you. This is both a wise and an eloquently analysis of the dangerous implications of Trump's vilification of undocumented people who come to this country seeking safety, opportunity, compassion. What is always missing from his chorus of hate - which is not, sadly, limited to the undocumented among us - are the real statistics and the stories of crime committed by our own citizens, and more specifically, by white Americans who deny, or at least have long forgotten, their own immigrant roots -- including Trump himself. Far greater numbers of Americans have been killed by white men, who often identify themselves as Christian, in the name of religion, or as a result of our plentiful gun supply and the failure of our lax gun laws to thwart the actions of someone who was mentally ill and in need of help.
But undocumented residents of the US are convenient villains for those who seek to justify their hate of anyone who is different from them, who seek to blame others because of the circumstances that have conspired to deprive them of whatever they feel is missing, to which they feel entitled. And, many undocumented workers are reminders of the previous waves of immigrants, both documented and undocumented, who worked hard, sometimes performing several jobs, and who succeeded despite the lack of education or opportunities or both, or whose children have succeeded because of their efforts. These people seem to be more interested in blaming others than in looking inward.
But undocumented residents of the US are convenient villains for those who seek to justify their hate of anyone who is different from them, who seek to blame others because of the circumstances that have conspired to deprive them of whatever they feel is missing, to which they feel entitled. And, many undocumented workers are reminders of the previous waves of immigrants, both documented and undocumented, who worked hard, sometimes performing several jobs, and who succeeded despite the lack of education or opportunities or both, or whose children have succeeded because of their efforts. These people seem to be more interested in blaming others than in looking inward.
2
It seems to me that many of the comments below are equating Mr Ostroy's support for a "path to citizenship" with unlimited, unvetted open borders. His own words contradict that - he is saying that we need to include a path to citizenship in the overall process of reform, which includes "securing borders, deporting non-citizen criminals and protecting Americans from foreign terrorists." I believe much of the rhetoric of this election stems from a similar mistaken equivalency - just because many people want to let in more refugees from Syria does not mean that we want to eliminate the very stringent vetting process that these refugees go through before entry, for example.
I am moved by this thoughtful essay, and encouraged that many supportive responses from others who deplore the sin of the murderer without convicting the entire community of the sinner as guilty of his crime.
I am moved by this thoughtful essay, and encouraged that many supportive responses from others who deplore the sin of the murderer without convicting the entire community of the sinner as guilty of his crime.
6
Straw man argument. No one is "convicting" an entire community of murder. However, we do have immigration laws for a reason, and those laws need to be followed in order for the US to have an orderly society today and in the foreseeable future.
As far as the "stringent vetting process" for Syrian refugees goes, it has been frequently described as a farce.
As far as the "stringent vetting process" for Syrian refugees goes, it has been frequently described as a farce.
12
Thank you for this article. Several years ago my home was burglarized by my illegal immigrant neighbor. I do not blame all Mexicans for what he did. At the time of the theft I had long experience with people from other countries who worked hard and were successful citizens. These people aren't robbers. They give a new perspective and a joy to life. I have attended weddings with Asian folk, seen Diwali parties and had the fabulous party experience of a few Quinceneros.
There are always going to be criminals no matter what the culture. We need to move beyond that picture. Forgiveness, hope, and tolerance are hard but we need them to survive in any country.
There are always going to be criminals no matter what the culture. We need to move beyond that picture. Forgiveness, hope, and tolerance are hard but we need them to survive in any country.
It takes remarkable courage to uproot your life and move to another country whether to escape a horrible situation or to pursue opportunity. I am humbled by my ancestors who made a decision to move to America and see that courage anew in people just moving here now. This is something many Americans share - that willingness to risk everything for a chance at something better. I like that about us.
I hope as we work though needed immigration reform, we don't forget that the very best people in the world are willing to risk it all to come to this land of opportunity. I hope we welcome as many vetted people as we can from all parts of the globe and stop giving voice to the false narrative that immigrants are somehow more likely to commit crimes than the people already living here.
I'm sorry for the loss that led to this editorial piece but am so grateful for the thoughts that have been shared. Thank you.
I hope as we work though needed immigration reform, we don't forget that the very best people in the world are willing to risk it all to come to this land of opportunity. I hope we welcome as many vetted people as we can from all parts of the globe and stop giving voice to the false narrative that immigrants are somehow more likely to commit crimes than the people already living here.
I'm sorry for the loss that led to this editorial piece but am so grateful for the thoughts that have been shared. Thank you.
I loved your wife's work and was horrified by her murder. I am not a Trump supporter. That being said, I do believe his rhetoric resonates with large numbers of people because there is an element of truth to what he says. Our borders are extremely porous. Millions of illegal aliens do reside in our country. I love Australia, but I could not enter the country and decide to stay there just like that. A large part of the problem is the business community which makes millions in profit by employing illegal aliens (my use of the word "illegal" here is deliberate. They are breaking the law by sneaking into the US, period.) and tacitly supports illegal immigration. Illegal immigrants work for less money and at jobs that mostly white Americans feel are beneath them. Farm owners in Alabama saw their tomato crop rot in the field for want of workers after Alabama passed a severe anti-immigrant law. Americans simply don't want to pick crops, clean toilets, drive cabs, change the diapers of incontinent elderly patients, or work low paying construction jobs. It's time to "elevate" working class jobs by forming more unions and strengthening the ones we have, forcing employers to pay a living wage, shifting the focus from turning so many students into debt- ridden college graduates to supporting training in the skilled trades. A tectonic cultural shift needs to occur and,yes, we need to secure our borders. If you want to immigrate here, then do it legally, just as I plan to do if Trump wins.
51
It is unfortunate that Mr. Trump's political statements perpetuate and create stereotypes of undocumented individuals in the United States. From personal experience, I know that these generalizations are wrong. Over the years, my father has hired a Brazilian contractor and his workers to paint and do renovations on our house. Though some of the workers are undocumented, they are hard working and earnest people. However, I do agree with Mr. Trump's basic principle that the United States needs to reform its immigration policy. His wall is not practical, but the stronger defense of our southern border and the enforcement of our immigration laws are. Undocumented people have the right to migrate in search of a better life, but as a nation, the United States also has the right to control its borders. Illegal immigration is unfair to all parties involved. American taxpayers have to pay for services that undocumented people need, but cannot afford. Citizens from other countries go through lengthy processes to enter the United States legally, while others enter illegally through the back door. Some American workers cannot compete with undocumented workers who will work for less. Many undocumented workers themselves are subject to exploitation and often struggle to make ends meet. The current system is unjust, and something has to be done.
29
Are you aware that hiring an illegal immigrant constitutes breaking a law?
10
One has to consider that anyone who is here illegally has already made the decision that their personal goals and welfare are above certain federal laws of the United States. Is it really unreasonable to assume that someone who disregards the laws governing our borders and visas will have a cavalier attitude towards other laws?
38
Which is exactly why you don't want 11 million undocumented immigrants to continue living in the U.S. Since you can't possibly deport 11 million people the only other solution is to provide a path to legalization to bring them out of the shadows. Such a bipartisan bill was passed by the Senate, but the House which would also have passed the bill, refused to allow it to come to the House floor for a vote (Hastert Rule). The illegal immigrant problem therefore sits squarely in the lap of the conservative Republican Congress. And for the record. Obama has deported a record 2.5 million illegal immigrants and illegal immigration into the U.S. is at a 45 year low. Since 600,000 people cross our southern border legally every day, the idea of a wall as a solution is just plain stupid.
1
It is indeed unreasonable to assume that, in your words "someone who disregards the laws governing our borders and visas will have a cavalier attitude towards other laws", mostly because undocumented immigrants are statistically more law-abiding than citizens.
Here is a good overview of the evidence: http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-a...
Here is a good overview of the evidence: http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-mythical-connection-between-immigrants-a...
2
Yes it is unreasonable to assume that every illegal immigrant is a murderer or rapist.
1
So......
Even though Mr. Pillco was in fact in the USA illegally and he did in fact murder Mr. Ostroy's wife,,,,Mr. Ostroy argues that there are no facts to support Donald Trump's claim that people enter the USA illegally and murder people.
Wow.
Doublespeak actually works.
Freedom is Slavery.
Slavery is Freedom.
Elect Hillary.
Even though Mr. Pillco was in fact in the USA illegally and he did in fact murder Mr. Ostroy's wife,,,,Mr. Ostroy argues that there are no facts to support Donald Trump's claim that people enter the USA illegally and murder people.
Wow.
Doublespeak actually works.
Freedom is Slavery.
Slavery is Freedom.
Elect Hillary.
25
Obama has deported 2.5 illegal immigrants. Illegal immigration into the U.S. today is at a 45 year low. In order to deal with the 11 million illegal immigrants already in the U.S., the Senate passed a comprehensive, bipartisan immigration reform bill. The House had enough votes to pass the measure but the Republican leaders of the House refused to allow the bill to come to the floor of the House for a vote. So who is most responsible for the continuing illegal immigrant problem?
2
Tens of thousands of people killed by fellow citizens. A handful (if that!) by illegal immigants. Tell me again, what's the solution to your problem?
"But Adrienne was not murdered by an illegal immigrant, per se. She fell victim to a depraved killer who simply happened to be an undocumented immigrant."
This is a distinction without a difference.
This is a distinction without a difference.
28
newspeak doublethink at its finest
6
Tyrone: It is not a distinction without a difference, as the 'distinction' of illegal immigrant has become a rallying cry for the unjustified vilification of millions of people.
The killer was an aberrant actor whose status ultimately had little to do with his actions. He could just as plausibly been an American citizen with any number of twisted rationales to kill.
Think of the multiple times in the last few years we have read about our own police shooting unarmed people, apparently because they were carried away in a flood of testosterone, adrenaline, and social and/or racial bias. I don't wish to open a police/race diatribe—the death of every police officer killed or injured on duty is equally horrific to me. My point is, you could not in good faith characterize the entirety of all of the police departments across the country as dangerous hotheads even though a few indisputably are. . . and are among those who have taken an OATH to protect and serve, not just random citizens.
Borders should be controlled of course. Scrutiny and follow-through should be the order of the day. But in the end, the risks as they stand right now, don't seem anywhere nearly as scary to me as the risks of smothering (a la Trump) the very essence of what makes America different—real hope for a chance to simply live, for anyone.
I humbly bow to the courage and moral rectitude of Andy Ostroy.
The killer was an aberrant actor whose status ultimately had little to do with his actions. He could just as plausibly been an American citizen with any number of twisted rationales to kill.
Think of the multiple times in the last few years we have read about our own police shooting unarmed people, apparently because they were carried away in a flood of testosterone, adrenaline, and social and/or racial bias. I don't wish to open a police/race diatribe—the death of every police officer killed or injured on duty is equally horrific to me. My point is, you could not in good faith characterize the entirety of all of the police departments across the country as dangerous hotheads even though a few indisputably are. . . and are among those who have taken an OATH to protect and serve, not just random citizens.
Borders should be controlled of course. Scrutiny and follow-through should be the order of the day. But in the end, the risks as they stand right now, don't seem anywhere nearly as scary to me as the risks of smothering (a la Trump) the very essence of what makes America different—real hope for a chance to simply live, for anyone.
I humbly bow to the courage and moral rectitude of Andy Ostroy.
1
Mr. Ostroy, your wife transcends her physical body because you, her husband, see her beauty and compassion and show us what defined her. I hope your daughter gets to know and love her mom through your eyes and celebrates every year with joys and wonders.
8
I am sorry for your loss, Mr Ostroy, and admire your compassion and courage. Your article points up one way, fortunately infrequent, in which the undocumented end up committing crimes that would not be committed if the same undocumented person were in the US and not under threat of deportation. I am so very sorry about your wife's death. I think you did the right thing in dealing with her killer. I hope someday he will be able to ask your forgiveness and try to do something to atone for taking her life.
2
I admire your compassion. But one of the few duties of a federal government is to provide and enforce secure borders. In an over-populated world ruled by despots, that means limiting immigration to the few who can provide a benefit to the host nation. Insisting on this is not a nationalistic impulse-- it is asking for pragmatic protection of this country. Nobody can prove the benefit of the unlimited immigration-- illegal and legal-- that has been thrust upon us since the first Reagan amnesty. So the GOP talks tough, even though their corporate masters have been the beneficiaries of low labor costs and since they do not mostly pay their fair share of taxes, they are not incurring the costs of immigration, as we the people are. Democrats foolishly hope they can build a secure voting bloc and so they spew worn out platitudes and cliches about the benefits of immigration. I think there are increasing numbers of Americans who just aren't buying either stance. As a democrat, I know how hateful Trump is and I realize that he will never build a wall or deport all those who are here. But as a democrat, I resent elites referring to Americans who want immigration limits as racist.
36
Thank you for a well thought out answer which I can whole heartedly support. If employers would not hire the undocumented, they would not come here. I fear there is far too little follow up on whether a person has a legal right to work here, as is enforced in most other countries. And frequently, I understand, employers hold themselves at arms length by hiring contractors who then carry the onus of verification, which they may very well not do. Those who say immigrants infuse our society with younger and capable lives may be right but we apparently have a tremendous problem with existing members of our rightful citizenry who have lost jobs to these undocumented.
I keep thinking that if the penalties for hiring the undocumented were only enforced, we would be in less of a chicken or the egg situation.
I keep thinking that if the penalties for hiring the undocumented were only enforced, we would be in less of a chicken or the egg situation.
9
I am glad he has moved on and is not consumes by grief. But I fail to see the distinction he makes between illegal and undocumented. Also, as he notes, Trump did not cite his wife's case. There are others and I have not heard any of those family survivors complain. What has has his sad story and article to do with Trump?
19
Well, I imagine Trump vetted them first to make sure they supported his ideas. If they had been likely to "complain" I doubt he would have mentioned them.
Thank You and God Bless You for being the person you are, and sharing your thoughts. Straight forward rational speech may not be "convincing" but it does often give some pause to those who have previously been moved to think and act irrationally, and it gives comfort to those who believe that moral and political deeds and thought should be governed by decency and reason.
6
I am a decent & reasonable person. I want ALL illegals who have committed crimes and have been convicted removed from this country. Mr. Obama refuses to remove them, and not one party hack/journalist will ever ask him why. That amounts to 66,000 criminal walking around loose on our streets.
5
The author of this article is entitled to his opinion, but he needs to realize not everyone shares it. Not everyone swallows the propaganda that "diversity" is always positive, that borders should be open, that trade should be free, that the majority should become the minority, and that tens of millions of Americans should meekly acquiesce to the strident demands of the increasingly extreme leftist agenda.
30
Yes, many of you believe the propaganda of White Nationalism. Good for you, dear.
It was who I assume is the leader of the party you espouse, Mr Reagan, who increased the incentive to coming here with approval of AMNESTY! He gave in to the people who wanted them as workers.
1
I can not see your reasoning and nice doctoring on the trump quote because he also said they were murderers like the one who killed your wife. I have all the sympathy in the world for you but you need to get real about the circumstances. Your daughter would still have a mother and you would still have a beautiful family for not that illegal alien. I do not want to sound callous but Donald Trump in this case is 100% correct. I have experienced it here in SF with the death of Kate Stienle, my wife attended her funeral, there should be no quarter given.
114
Has your wife attended the funerals of the thousands, tens of thousand, hundreds of thousands, millions murdered by US citizens? Natural born citizens? White citizens? Christian citizens who kill in the name of religion? Why not just deny entry to everyone, even those who are admitted through the immigration process, because one of them may be or become mentally ill. Where does it stop? Should we expel everyone other than Native Americans? Anger toward undocumented residents who commit the same crimes that our own citizens commit, albeit at a lower rate, is just another excuse to hate. Imagine if you were born in Honduras, and desperately sought to bring your family to safety. Can you imagine that, or has the accident of being born in this country blinded you to the plight of others?
So if a murder is committed by a plumber should we ban plumbers? That is your logic. If we really wanted to cut down on terrorist attacks in the US we would lock up all the white men, as they are the ones who commit the majority of terrorist acts in the US.
The person who killed your wife was in the country illegally. That means your wife was murdered by an illegal immigrant.
166
It also means, that were illegal immigration enforced as it should have been, then thousands of crimes could have been PREVENTED.
A country uninterested in preventing such crimes, and uninterested in the concerns and suffering of citizens, do NOT deserve to run this country. Whether they are Trump OR Clinton.
A country uninterested in preventing such crimes, and uninterested in the concerns and suffering of citizens, do NOT deserve to run this country. Whether they are Trump OR Clinton.
3
And it seems the article itself even says the murder was directly related to his being an illegal immigrant: "...fearing she would report him and have him deported, he killed her"
3
We don't actually know that. It is not illegal to be here without documentation. What is illegal is to enter the country improperly. Being here without documentation is a civil matter, not criminal. No person can be "illegal" by the way. They are simply undocumented.
This, like many of the editorials and op-ed pieces in the NYT, tries to deflect attention from the real issues with respect to immigration. The question each of these authors needs to answer is: What should our immigration policy be?
Do we want open borders?
Do we want only allow in highly skilled immigrants?
Do want to favor immigrants from countries closer to the US than those far away? (e.g. Central Americans over Middle Easterners.)
Do want to allow anyone who comes here illegally to be allowed to stay if they have been here for a few years, haven't committed a felony, and perhaps have children born here?
Whatever policy we decide is appropriate, it will be the de facto policy for both past and future immigrants. Allowing a "path to citizenship" for those currently here illegally will lead to expectations of the same treatment for future immigrants - regardless of what the law allows.
Do we want open borders?
Do we want only allow in highly skilled immigrants?
Do want to favor immigrants from countries closer to the US than those far away? (e.g. Central Americans over Middle Easterners.)
Do want to allow anyone who comes here illegally to be allowed to stay if they have been here for a few years, haven't committed a felony, and perhaps have children born here?
Whatever policy we decide is appropriate, it will be the de facto policy for both past and future immigrants. Allowing a "path to citizenship" for those currently here illegally will lead to expectations of the same treatment for future immigrants - regardless of what the law allows.
19
If Trump had a politician's mind, he would begin and end every public utterance with the illegal immigration problem.
4
Thank you. I want to remind people that most murders are committed by American born Christians. Remember the bombing in Oklahoma City, the shootings at the University in Virginia, the shootings of people in Church in Charleston S.C., the shooting of the school children in Connecticut and on and on.
Should all Christians be held accountable for these crimes? I think not, but neither should all immigrants be held accountable either.
Should all Christians be held accountable for these crimes? I think not, but neither should all immigrants be held accountable either.
13
So what?
Doubling down on the evil that's committed in America takes away from the most important part of the conversation: Why IMPORT more evil, poverty and uncounted millions of people who cannot and will not be held accountable the way an American citizen on the books will be?
How many foreign born criminals end up fleeing, and are never caught because of the entanglement of foreign countries that won't cooperate with our justice system?
Illegal immigrants are by definition, not "subject to the jurisdiction" thereof. That means their offspring are NOT American citizens if their parents are not.
The birthright 14th amendment, is meant ONLY for those whose presence in America wasn't their choice (native Americans and black slave descendants).
If any additional murders can be prevented because illegal immigration is strictly and RIGHTFULLY enforced, that's LESS crime to worry about, right?
Your rhetorical comment matters little, when the subject is about people who AREN'T accountable, because they aren't accounted for.
Doubling down on the evil that's committed in America takes away from the most important part of the conversation: Why IMPORT more evil, poverty and uncounted millions of people who cannot and will not be held accountable the way an American citizen on the books will be?
How many foreign born criminals end up fleeing, and are never caught because of the entanglement of foreign countries that won't cooperate with our justice system?
Illegal immigrants are by definition, not "subject to the jurisdiction" thereof. That means their offspring are NOT American citizens if their parents are not.
The birthright 14th amendment, is meant ONLY for those whose presence in America wasn't their choice (native Americans and black slave descendants).
If any additional murders can be prevented because illegal immigration is strictly and RIGHTFULLY enforced, that's LESS crime to worry about, right?
Your rhetorical comment matters little, when the subject is about people who AREN'T accountable, because they aren't accounted for.
7
Loved your wife in the Hal Hartley movies. I remember being so saddened to learn of her murder. Though years had gone by since I had seen her on screen, I remembered her very well.
1
This comment from Willa Michener (NYT subscription in the Oye name): There is a kind of glitch in the human psyche that causes us to blame all the members of another group for the deeds of a few. The glitch can be found in all cultures, at least in all that do not actively counter it out of conscience and compassion. Trump is exploiting this human failing when he blames all immigrants for the misdeeds of a few. I argue that we have an innate category for "the enemy" and we learn whom to put into the category -- whoever attacks us, whomever we attack, whomever our fellows say to hate. Once slotted into "the enemy" group, "enemy" people are subjected to hate, fear, and the preconscious inhibition of sympathy. I don't even think Trump's professed hatred is sincere. I think he is just using it to get followers. Tragically, his simulated hatred is inducing real hatred in others. How do we undo the Trump effect? By celebrating logic and decency, as Ostroy has done so brilliantly here.
5
The problem is Trump's rhetoric is that it easily spills-over into a general anti-immigrant xenophobia, evident also in some of these comments. By all means, let's enforce the law. Let's deport undocumented criminals or better, let's put them to work in jail, so they may compensate the victims or their families. Let's put some electronic barrier on the border (Trump's "wall" belongs to the past). But let's not forget that 40 percent of start-up founders are foreign-born. In the Silicon Valley, you can hear all the languages of the world and meet people from all over the globe. When high-tech companies hire Chinese, Indians, Russians, Israelis, Turks or Belgians, they don't do it because they are anti-American. They do it because not enough Americans possess the necessary skills. If you do, you'll be hired, whether you come from Iowa or Italy. And this globalize game trend is irreversible. A "pure" America is a fascist dream that, were it to be put into practice, would end up with a poor, Third-World ghetto of a country. So sure, let's deport criminals. Let's decide whether those who come to this country possess the skills the country needs (and this includes not just coding but agricultural and domestic labor). But Trump's supporters real problem is not crime - or they would be suspicious of native-born white men with no education and conceal-carry permits who commit a lot of crime in this country. Their real problem is that high-tech Chinese family next door.
4
Sorry for the author's loss. And I will attribute the best of intentions to the author. However, I don't buy his argument. It isn't that there is something intrinsically criminal in being an undocumented immigrant. But they have crossed our border illegally. However, If illegal immigrants commit crimes, particularly violent crimes, at a higher rate than citizens, that is a problem. And there is some evidence that suggests this is true.
Higher crime rates among our illegal alien population could result from a couple of things. Let's say that for whatever reason, the Mexicans who cross over illegally may have a disproportionate crime rate compared to other Mexican citizens. They may be more likely to have gang affiliations or sell drugs or engage in petty crime. And, once they get here, they may be more motivated to commit crimes -- either to keep from being reported -- or because they are economically stressed. They may have even come here specifically to commit crimes. Some of them.
Either way, none of this says anything disparaging about Mexico or Mexicans or about the majority who come here and are undocumented.But, if US citizens were slipping illegally into Mexico, the Mexican government (not burdened with being overly PC) might be justified in assuming that those who cross illegally may be more likely to be criminals than the avg US citizen.
Higher crime rates among our illegal alien population could result from a couple of things. Let's say that for whatever reason, the Mexicans who cross over illegally may have a disproportionate crime rate compared to other Mexican citizens. They may be more likely to have gang affiliations or sell drugs or engage in petty crime. And, once they get here, they may be more motivated to commit crimes -- either to keep from being reported -- or because they are economically stressed. They may have even come here specifically to commit crimes. Some of them.
Either way, none of this says anything disparaging about Mexico or Mexicans or about the majority who come here and are undocumented.But, if US citizens were slipping illegally into Mexico, the Mexican government (not burdened with being overly PC) might be justified in assuming that those who cross illegally may be more likely to be criminals than the avg US citizen.
19
I have read, several times, about studies and statistics showing that crime, including violent crime, is actually lower among undocumented immigrants. This did not create the basis of my opinions on the subject, but if it influences yours, you might perhaps look into it further.
In 1974, while a grad student, I was sexually attacked by an illegal alien, a total stranger. I don't want to get into the details, but it was pretty disgusting. I wasn't hurt. I was at the time very strong and beat him off. I also ran after him, screaming all the way. He was caught and held by bystanders who heard my screaming. He was arrested, charged and freed. He had a forged ID with another person's name. They learned he was an illegal alien after he was charged, given a court date and let go. If they'd known he was an illegal alien, he would have been deported (I was told).
The only reason I mention this event is that I doubt he was included in the number of illegal aliens who committed crimes that year, as his charging papers wouldn't have indicated he was an illegal alien. I don't think we have any idea how many illegal aliens commit crimes, either as an absolute number or as a percentage of crimes committed. All I know is that, if he'd stayed in his home country, the assault would never have happened.
My condolences to Andy and his child.
The only reason I mention this event is that I doubt he was included in the number of illegal aliens who committed crimes that year, as his charging papers wouldn't have indicated he was an illegal alien. I don't think we have any idea how many illegal aliens commit crimes, either as an absolute number or as a percentage of crimes committed. All I know is that, if he'd stayed in his home country, the assault would never have happened.
My condolences to Andy and his child.
34
What he did to you, is a crime. If he were not in this country, he probably would have done it to some one else in his own, or what ever country he was in.
I also believe we must find a realistic, humane path to citizenship for the millions of decent, hard-working immigrants who love this country as much as I do, regardless of whether they are documented or not. We need the kind of compassionate reform
Such support albeit misguided, attests to the generalizability of an observation by Pope more than two centuries ago: “Vice is a monster of so frightful mien as to be feared needs only to be seen, but seen too oft, familiar with her face, we first endure, then pity, then finally embrace.”
Having tolerated the human embodiments of illegal immigration, it’s hard to shake the resulting (default) embrace because, as the late Sen. Dirksen noted, “The mind is no match with the heart for persuasion; the Constitution is no match with compassion”.
Who could blame illegal aliens from believing that “Nuestro pais es tu pais”, interpreted literally, is official U.S. immigration policy?
Why not encourage responsible officials to enforce laws now on the books? For example,the Federal Immigration and Nationality Act (FINA) Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii) “Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title Section 274 felonies under the Federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):
Such support albeit misguided, attests to the generalizability of an observation by Pope more than two centuries ago: “Vice is a monster of so frightful mien as to be feared needs only to be seen, but seen too oft, familiar with her face, we first endure, then pity, then finally embrace.”
Having tolerated the human embodiments of illegal immigration, it’s hard to shake the resulting (default) embrace because, as the late Sen. Dirksen noted, “The mind is no match with the heart for persuasion; the Constitution is no match with compassion”.
Who could blame illegal aliens from believing that “Nuestro pais es tu pais”, interpreted literally, is official U.S. immigration policy?
Why not encourage responsible officials to enforce laws now on the books? For example,the Federal Immigration and Nationality Act (FINA) Section 8 USC 1324(a)(1)(A)(iv)(b)(iii) “Any person who . . . encourages or induces an alien to . . . reside . . . knowing or in reckless disregard of the fact that such . . . residence is . . . in violation of law, shall be punished as provided . . . for each alien in respect to whom such a violation occurs . . . fined under title Section 274 felonies under the Federal Immigration and Nationality Act, INA 274A(a)(1)(A):
3
First, even Native Americans arrived here from somewhere else. No one is arguing that any particular ethnic group has some kind of indelible claim to the land of this country.
The argument about securing the border and requiring illegal immigrants to return and apply as legal immigrants is simply the following: the people of this country have formed a government and society for the benefit of the governed and have established borders and rules about who and how many people to admit and from where and when. A rule that is not enforced is not much of a rule. The strict application of the rule of law is probably the singular most important trait responsible for the economic success of the United States. If we don't enforce the laws about illegal immigration, why are millions of potential legal immigrants waiting patiently for green cards and work visas?
The argument about securing the border and requiring illegal immigrants to return and apply as legal immigrants is simply the following: the people of this country have formed a government and society for the benefit of the governed and have established borders and rules about who and how many people to admit and from where and when. A rule that is not enforced is not much of a rule. The strict application of the rule of law is probably the singular most important trait responsible for the economic success of the United States. If we don't enforce the laws about illegal immigration, why are millions of potential legal immigrants waiting patiently for green cards and work visas?
25
Exactly. Native Americans marched over the arctic land bridges that connected Siberia to North America 15,000 years ago. The only land in which people can truly be considered native is Africa. We all originally came from Africa.
5
Nonsense. If America doesn't take control of its borders it will cease to be a cohesive, viable country.
25
That is what the native americans said about the illegal European immigrants. Boy were they right!
Most Americans are killed by members of their own "race", color, ethnicity, faith, socioeconomic political and educational class caste. Family, friends and neighbors have greater access and grievance to kill than do strangers. Only 5% of murders are inter-racial about evenly distributed between the races. Most Americans are killed by other Americans.
Enslaved Africans coming to America were "a species of property". They were not immigrants. Native Americans were killed by illegal immigrants from Europe.
Donald Trump's grandfather came to America illegally dodging the German military draft. Trump's Scottish mother came to America seeking a nuptial fortune and some American "anchor babies". The 1st and 3rd Mrs. Trump's were Slavic atheist communist super models whose entry into America to marry a multimillionaire and have his babies is legally and morally highly suspect.
Enslaved Africans coming to America were "a species of property". They were not immigrants. Native Americans were killed by illegal immigrants from Europe.
Donald Trump's grandfather came to America illegally dodging the German military draft. Trump's Scottish mother came to America seeking a nuptial fortune and some American "anchor babies". The 1st and 3rd Mrs. Trump's were Slavic atheist communist super models whose entry into America to marry a multimillionaire and have his babies is legally and morally highly suspect.
9
"Only 5% of murders are inter-racial about evenly distributed between the races."
Blackmamba, that statistic isn't terribly comforting to anyone who knows basic math. Since blacks are now 13% of the population and whites 73%, it means blacks are 550% more likely to kill whites than whites are to kill blacks.
Blackmamba, that statistic isn't terribly comforting to anyone who knows basic math. Since blacks are now 13% of the population and whites 73%, it means blacks are 550% more likely to kill whites than whites are to kill blacks.
11
It is a sad commentary on our current condition as a nation that the pain Mr. Ostroy and his daughter suffer could be so callously exploited for political, xenophobic and hateful means. Ten years after his wife's death, he is expending energy that could be directed toward healing on combatting the bigotry and hatred that seems to be overtaking our country. We owe him our gratitude. It is sad that it needs to be said, but crimes are committed by individual people, not by entire races, nationalities, or religions.
141
How is it bigoted to have immigration laws like every other country?
16
This man should be the one to publicly ask Barack Obama why he allows convicted criminal immigrants to stay here.
5
Seems to me that the NYT is exploiting this guy's story in order to sway the emotions of its liberal readers. People can be props of both sides you know, and this guy just wanted to be a Democrat prop instead of a Republican prop.
8
While I am in agreement that not all illegal immigrants are depraved killers, they are, by defination, lawbreakers. As such, I do not feel that they are the sort of people who will respect the laws of the land, as they have shown that they place their own personal interests above following them already.
The author has said we need to "deport noncitizen criminals"; that is exactly what Mr. Trump wants to do. Anyone living in this country illegally is a criminal, and should be deported. No, we will never deport all of them but we do not catch all criminals of any sort; that does not mean that we should just quit trying.
The author has said we need to "deport noncitizen criminals"; that is exactly what Mr. Trump wants to do. Anyone living in this country illegally is a criminal, and should be deported. No, we will never deport all of them but we do not catch all criminals of any sort; that does not mean that we should just quit trying.
104
Actually, being in this country without documentation is not a crime; it is a civil violation, but not a crime. It is a crime to enter the country unlawfully, but many undocumented people enter the country perfectly legally and then overstay their visas. They are not criminals, they are not lawbreakers, they are not "illegal." This is a really important distinction!
74
All Americans who hire undocumented immigrants are also by definition lawbreakers as well. The undocumented worker coming to America is looking to improve his/her life by obtaining a job not available in the native country, whereas the American employer is looking to exploit that vulnerable person in order to save money and avoid paying taxes. Who really is the guilty party?
4
Every time some one goes over the speed limit, he or she too is, by definition, a lawbreaker - and likely a repeat offender. Would you reach the same conclusion that such a person does not respect the law of the land and has only personal interests in mind? Most illegal immigrants enter the country for economic reasons, not to commit crimes.
5
I am so sorry for your loss but I am also sorry you have politicized your wife's murder.
Anyone who purportedly loves this country so much should want to follow its laws to gain entry. Citizenship obtained by unlawful means is marked by a stain that can't be removed by executive fiat.
Had your wife's killer loved the United States as much as I do, he would not have been here illegally, and therefore would not have had his motive for killing her. It is so obvious that some who have given up everything to come here illegally will do anything to prevent themselves being returned to their country, even commit murder.
Anyone who purportedly loves this country so much should want to follow its laws to gain entry. Citizenship obtained by unlawful means is marked by a stain that can't be removed by executive fiat.
Had your wife's killer loved the United States as much as I do, he would not have been here illegally, and therefore would not have had his motive for killing her. It is so obvious that some who have given up everything to come here illegally will do anything to prevent themselves being returned to their country, even commit murder.
42
"Trump’s anti-immigrant rhetoric"
There is a difference between legal immigration where you go the US embassy, apply for a visa and then wait, as opposed to simply sneaking into the country.
This repeated conflation of legal and illegal immigration is a hypocrisy which, unlike Clinton's, is practiced on a mass scale.
There is a difference between legal immigration where you go the US embassy, apply for a visa and then wait, as opposed to simply sneaking into the country.
This repeated conflation of legal and illegal immigration is a hypocrisy which, unlike Clinton's, is practiced on a mass scale.
18
To the author of the article:
You, Sir, are a compassionate and magnanimous human being. I admire your ethos after suffering an unspeakable tragedy.
We had a term for your wife's killer. That term was "illegal alien" before the mainstream media succumbed to using "undocumented migrant".
The people who oppose allowing these "IE"s to remain in the USA do not suffer from xenophobia, nor are they angry racists. Why are they labeled as such when they demand that the laws of the land be followed and these same laws are enforced by those appointed, hired or elected to do so?
When you apply for an employer based green card, the employer is required to prove that by providing this job,
an American worker is not being displaced and that this labor is not being performed at a wage that is lower than what an American would be paid. This is called "Labor Certifucation" and adds 18 months to the wait.
Given that becoming a legal immigrant to this country routinely takes three to six years, during which time, one has only temporary status in this country, the vast number of recent legal immigrants say the same thing as the so called nativists: "Come here legally (if your skills are needed) and wait in line like the others did."
I am deeply sorry for your loss.
I am not sorry that this killer received his sentence.
He should not have been in this country to start with.
You, Sir, are a compassionate and magnanimous human being. I admire your ethos after suffering an unspeakable tragedy.
We had a term for your wife's killer. That term was "illegal alien" before the mainstream media succumbed to using "undocumented migrant".
The people who oppose allowing these "IE"s to remain in the USA do not suffer from xenophobia, nor are they angry racists. Why are they labeled as such when they demand that the laws of the land be followed and these same laws are enforced by those appointed, hired or elected to do so?
When you apply for an employer based green card, the employer is required to prove that by providing this job,
an American worker is not being displaced and that this labor is not being performed at a wage that is lower than what an American would be paid. This is called "Labor Certifucation" and adds 18 months to the wait.
Given that becoming a legal immigrant to this country routinely takes three to six years, during which time, one has only temporary status in this country, the vast number of recent legal immigrants say the same thing as the so called nativists: "Come here legally (if your skills are needed) and wait in line like the others did."
I am deeply sorry for your loss.
I am not sorry that this killer received his sentence.
He should not have been in this country to start with.
33
Your estimation of how long it takes to become a legal immigrant is off by about 10 years. The wait, if you are from Mexico, is much closer to 15-20 years. Now, if you are talking about naturalization that process takes 3-6 years after you have been in the country continually for 5 years.
I looked up immigrant in several sources. None of them state that the term immigrant refers to a legal or illegal movement of people. The world is changing....get over it.
So sad for your loss, and your daughter's. Thank you for writing what must have been a bitterly difficult essay. That you can is a testimony to our shared humanity and a refutation of the moral blindness that sometimes divides us.
22
Would your wife still be alive if we had a strong immigration policy vs the quasi open borders we have now?
36
His wife might be alive had they not hired an undocumented immigrant with no regard for human life who was afraid of being turned in and deported. She could also have been murdered by a native-born casual worker who also had little respect for human life and found some other reason to kill her.
2
What a terrible thing to say. Did you even read what he wrote?
1
The same arguments supporting 'strong immigration' could be used to support mandatory contraception for all Americans. If a murderer or rapist had never been born his or her crime would have never been committed.
I am so sorry for your, and your daughter's loss. Thank you for having room in your heart, in spite of this tragedy.
26
Thank you for your brave and insightful piece, Mr. Ostroy. My heart breaks for your loss, while spilling out with gratitude for your generosity of spirit.
It is in such sharp contrast with the vitriol I hear from my Texan relatives, who quote false propaganda about illegals at every turn. I wish I could get them to read your piece, but alas, they have no interest in truth and charity. Their source for news is Fox and Breitbart and their (purportedly Christian) votes are pledged to Trump.
It is in such sharp contrast with the vitriol I hear from my Texan relatives, who quote false propaganda about illegals at every turn. I wish I could get them to read your piece, but alas, they have no interest in truth and charity. Their source for news is Fox and Breitbart and their (purportedly Christian) votes are pledged to Trump.
8
How ironic- Texas thrives on the labor of undocumented workers who sweat all day for the lowest pay. Most are decent, hardworking people who want to do the best for their families. Others, I assume, fit into the statistical percentage of people who are inclined to commit crimes, and who live in all human communities.
1
I sincerely hope that, having put your name and your wife's name in the New York Times with this courageous article, you do not now find yourself being vilified by the Republican candidate and his lackeys at his next rally.
14
This must have been a very difficult Opinion to write. I wish the best for you and yours. Thank you for your courage and strength to say the truth. Fear has played to much in our elections, from the National, to even the local elections. When our we as a people going to start looking past a persons color, race, religion or where the heck they came from. Bad people are just that, bad people. Too many "undocumented " work to put food on out tables, build our houses and watch our children. They just want what all wish for, a safe place to live and grow. Thank you .....
18
Dear Ostroy, Honestly, I am deeply indebted for your courageous and gut-wrenching article. Hope you will not feel bad if I write a few lines below expressing my views. 1. Nobody in US including you do not like to mention the actual status quo regarding the immigration and at the same time also try to cover-up all the existing facts. 2. First, how 11 million undocumented immigrants landed in US? 3. There is absolutely no evidence of these immigrants begging or ending up in homeless shelters across US. 4. The available evidence clearly shows that undocumented immigrants are working and making a living in US. 5. How is that possible if they are undocumented? 6. Almost every organization (Democrats and Republicans), big or small making the best use of the service provided by illegal immigrants by constantly keeping them in under eternal fear and exploiting them as much as they can. 7. Do illegal immigrants receive medical benefits, retirement benefits - please answer this? 8. Dear Ostroy - you have mentioned that Democrats have been trying constantly to find a way to develop a path for citizenship to illegal immigrants. 9. FINAL QUESTION IS - DO DEMOCRATS HAVE A PLAN TO CHECK THE ENTRY OF NEXT WAVE OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS AFTER PROVIDING CITIZEN SHIP TO THE PRESENT POPULATION OR VERY CUNNICALY ALLOW ANOTHER WAY OF 11 MILLION ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS IN THE COMING YEARS SO THAT THEY TOO CAN BE EXPLOITED UNDER ANOTHER NEW SET OF MORAL STANDARDS?
6
What part of ILLEGAL don't you understand?! They are ALL criminals and this crime never would have happened had that "person" not been here, and second had you not hired that"person!" Simple. Break the laws and this is what you get! JUST another reason to deport all illegal aliens and jail all those who hire and assist them. In addition you and yours are guilty of tax evasion for not paying taxes on that "person." What others have you hired?!
As per this article, they are all murders, drug dealers, guns, guilty of trespassing into a sovereign nation, using benefits only meant for citizens and legal immigrants, etc. Just proves that nothing good from illegal aliens.
Why is it so difficult to differentiate between legal immigrants and illegal aliens. Not difficult at all! Make the distinction!
It's like breaking into a house and then demanding that you can stay there. Wrong is wrong.
As per this article, they are all murders, drug dealers, guns, guilty of trespassing into a sovereign nation, using benefits only meant for citizens and legal immigrants, etc. Just proves that nothing good from illegal aliens.
Why is it so difficult to differentiate between legal immigrants and illegal aliens. Not difficult at all! Make the distinction!
It's like breaking into a house and then demanding that you can stay there. Wrong is wrong.
21
A minor child brought here by undocumented parents is not a "criminal".
But it is criminal to take those kids and force them out of the only country they know, and "return" them to a place where they may not even speak the language.
I agree that we should work harder to prevent people from coming in without valid documentation, but the world would be a better, nicer place if we can find some compassion to treat their children, not as criminals, but as victims.
Providing a path to citizenship is a good way of living our American values.
But it is criminal to take those kids and force them out of the only country they know, and "return" them to a place where they may not even speak the language.
I agree that we should work harder to prevent people from coming in without valid documentation, but the world would be a better, nicer place if we can find some compassion to treat their children, not as criminals, but as victims.
Providing a path to citizenship is a good way of living our American values.
2
I am getting so fed up with the word undocumented. It is such a farce and such a lie. They are not undocumented. They are illegal. If I moved to Canada I would be an illegal immigrant. They wouldn't give me any citizenship just because I illegally entered their country. They wouldn't view me as undocumented.
The reason that the United States is having such a problem with this is that the NYT and the media view hispanics as a race (even though they are technically white on every government form I've ever filled out). Since they are a racial minority, if we prevent them from coming to America then we are racists. If they were just more white people, I'm sure that the NYT would support a secure border and deportations, and would actually use the word illegal immigrant.
The reason that the United States is having such a problem with this is that the NYT and the media view hispanics as a race (even though they are technically white on every government form I've ever filled out). Since they are a racial minority, if we prevent them from coming to America then we are racists. If they were just more white people, I'm sure that the NYT would support a secure border and deportations, and would actually use the word illegal immigrant.
9
Native Americans were immigrants, too. They just came here when there weren't any other people.
8
I am sorry for your loss.
Yes- all types of people commit crimes. Murder is murder. But your wife wasn't killed by a citizen. We cannot deport citizens- we are stuck with them.
But those here illegally need to go. One crime committed by someone here illegally is too much. They have already broken the law.
It would be akin to a citizen committing a crime, not being punished, and then committing another crime. We all, rightfully, would be disgusted by this.
Yes- all types of people commit crimes. Murder is murder. But your wife wasn't killed by a citizen. We cannot deport citizens- we are stuck with them.
But those here illegally need to go. One crime committed by someone here illegally is too much. They have already broken the law.
It would be akin to a citizen committing a crime, not being punished, and then committing another crime. We all, rightfully, would be disgusted by this.
18
Thank you for sharing your deeply personal and moving story. It enriches our national debate about immigration, as do your cogent, thoughtful remarks. Too bad this article can't be required reading for all voters.
3
There's a difference between liberalism and making compassion look foolish. The excuses he makes for his wife's killer are not the same he'd use for a criminal from his own demographic.
It would be a more persuasive piece if it weren't the only one the NYT has run on the topic.
It would be a more persuasive piece if it weren't the only one the NYT has run on the topic.
34
I hope you dont mind if I HATE this man for what he did. Perhaps someone told you hate could interfere with your healing process. But in some cases hate is the logical and even healthy reaction.
Its true we have plenty of native born killers. Kindly explain to me why we should allow them in from other countries. People like this murderer often act out criminally. Yet we often fail to deport them.
This man has a right to his opinion But I have not seen any similar heartfelt accounts in the Times from people who have been similarly victimized but have very different views about illegal aliens.
Its true we have plenty of native born killers. Kindly explain to me why we should allow them in from other countries. People like this murderer often act out criminally. Yet we often fail to deport them.
This man has a right to his opinion But I have not seen any similar heartfelt accounts in the Times from people who have been similarly victimized but have very different views about illegal aliens.
21
Please accept my sympathy for your unspeakable loss. And thank you for sharing your deeply personal experience in such a way that you have shone a harsh light on the political attempts to paint immigrants with on brush - as hateful, evil, and "other". What is deeply disturbing, but not surprising, is that Faux News "journalists" like Kelly and O'Reilly sought you out in order to try and exploit your pain in the furtherance of their own skewed campaign of hate and distortion. That is how the likes of them create and sell "news". Shame on them. And thank you.
12
A little Socratic reasoning please?
Nothing says this killer was a depraved killer before he murdered. There's no proof that he'd killed any one before. The cause of this murder was his fear of being deported. That fear motivated him to kill to protect himself. Without that fear he would not have killed.
The primary cause for her murder was his illegal status in this country.
She was killed by an illegal alien.
Nothing says this killer was a depraved killer before he murdered. There's no proof that he'd killed any one before. The cause of this murder was his fear of being deported. That fear motivated him to kill to protect himself. Without that fear he would not have killed.
The primary cause for her murder was his illegal status in this country.
She was killed by an illegal alien.
31
Your reasoning is flawed. If he was willing to murder this one person who he percieved threatened his immigration status at that particular time, then it is logical to assume that he was willing to murder anyone who threatened his immigration status in any way at any time since his illegal and undocumented entry into the country. Therefore, the more logical reading of the available evidence suggests that he was a threat to everyone he encountered from the second he crossed over the border.
4
Yeah, from the second he crossed the border illegally he then has a motive to kill anyone who might have tried to send him back. He was also a sociopath, which allowed him to use that motive to actually kill people. Seems to me like the woman was killed by an illegal immigrant whose motive was created by his illegal status. The fact that he was a sociopath allowed him to kill, but the motive came from being an illegal alien.
4
Seems like it was his illegal status was exactly the reason Diego Pillco (who had to have been a depraved human being anyway) killed Adrienne Shelly.
31
A real sad story of a family destroyed by an Ecuadorian undocumented worker who killed a wife; a mother of a 2 year old child claiming he was in fear of deportation. In my opinion, from the moment he saw her, he had malicious intents to harm her. Sociopaths come from all races and all nationalities; once they recognize the person is vulnerable it becomes his “prey” thus, everything is for grabs.
Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump is a predator; he exacerbates vulnerable people’s feelings; racists that believe government and illegal immigrants are the cause of their economic misfortune; a misguided concept because most undocumented people come to this country to work taking care of the crops; a job most Americans won’t dare to do. To corroborate Republican politicians’ hidden sentiment, he keeps labeling illegals as criminals and rapists (sociopaths) hiding in the shadows waiting to attack Americans.
Sociopaths, individuals with this neurological symptom are born, live, are alive and well in the America Donald Trump wants to “make great again”. Just to name a few: Gary M. Heidnik kept 6 young women captive in his basement for sexual satisfaction interaction; Ted Bundy had killed 30 women by the time he got caught and Jeffrey Dahmer was arrested after the police found several human skulls and corpses of 15 young children. Please beware of “wolves in sheep’s clothing.”
Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump is a predator; he exacerbates vulnerable people’s feelings; racists that believe government and illegal immigrants are the cause of their economic misfortune; a misguided concept because most undocumented people come to this country to work taking care of the crops; a job most Americans won’t dare to do. To corroborate Republican politicians’ hidden sentiment, he keeps labeling illegals as criminals and rapists (sociopaths) hiding in the shadows waiting to attack Americans.
Sociopaths, individuals with this neurological symptom are born, live, are alive and well in the America Donald Trump wants to “make great again”. Just to name a few: Gary M. Heidnik kept 6 young women captive in his basement for sexual satisfaction interaction; Ted Bundy had killed 30 women by the time he got caught and Jeffrey Dahmer was arrested after the police found several human skulls and corpses of 15 young children. Please beware of “wolves in sheep’s clothing.”
3
I am overwhelmed by the grace, the dignity, and the intelligence of your words, and your ability to hold this painful and complicated truth in your heart. That you also choose to share it with us is breathtaking. I hope that some people are listening.
19
The fact that Mr. Ostroy has to defend his wife's murderer speaks volumes. In this bitterly partisan election year, politics apparently supercedes even Love in this case. Wow!
10
My God, man. Did you skim the essay or are you strategically misinterpreting? The writer clearly states that his wife's killer is a deranged sociopath...hardly a "defense". His point is that his immigration status is, obviously, irrelevant, just as is the citizenship of a home-grown killer. The essay is clearly an affirmation of his love for his wife. I guess you missed it. The willingness to hold
an entire group guilty for the sin of one of its members is the intellectual seed for mass extermination.
an entire group guilty for the sin of one of its members is the intellectual seed for mass extermination.
1
Mr. Ostroy is entitled to great sympathy at the death of his wife at the hands of an illegal alien. But this appeal to authority falls flat. He’s a long-time Democratic contributor unlikely to have permitted DT’s rhetoric to influence his ideology.
DT has NEVER voiced “anti-immigrant” sentiments. He HAS said that illegal aliens are deeply problematic and, often, not nice people. He’s right. Despite his loss, the author still can’t accurately describe them: they are NOT “immigrants”; they broke the law to come (or stay) here which, virtually by definition, makes them criminals.
DT takes a “hard-line law and order stance”? Horrors!! If sending people here illegally home “separates people from their families”, whose fault is that?
Even in his grief, the author can’t find it within himself to accurately portray the issue. DT – whatever his other faults – is NOT a xenophobe, nor has he called for the end of legal immigration. He says, simply, “enforce the law”. That should be an entirely uncontroversial sentiment, universally shared.
The author’s wife’s killer was a criminal before he took her life. But we shouldn’t send illegals home because they’re killers; we should send them home because they have no right to be here, they cost us tens, if not hundreds of billions a year, and because any nation that values the rule of law needs to enforce it.
DT has NEVER voiced “anti-immigrant” sentiments. He HAS said that illegal aliens are deeply problematic and, often, not nice people. He’s right. Despite his loss, the author still can’t accurately describe them: they are NOT “immigrants”; they broke the law to come (or stay) here which, virtually by definition, makes them criminals.
DT takes a “hard-line law and order stance”? Horrors!! If sending people here illegally home “separates people from their families”, whose fault is that?
Even in his grief, the author can’t find it within himself to accurately portray the issue. DT – whatever his other faults – is NOT a xenophobe, nor has he called for the end of legal immigration. He says, simply, “enforce the law”. That should be an entirely uncontroversial sentiment, universally shared.
The author’s wife’s killer was a criminal before he took her life. But we shouldn’t send illegals home because they’re killers; we should send them home because they have no right to be here, they cost us tens, if not hundreds of billions a year, and because any nation that values the rule of law needs to enforce it.
19
I think we are on the verge of a mandate for the opposite opinion.
Even here in Texas, the majority believe illegal immigrants to offer greater benefit than problems. This study was published in the Daĺlas Morning News.
Most of us aren't opposed to educating children, legal or illegal. It is in our favor to educate those who can contribute greatly to our Texas economy and richness of culture.
I don’t object to those who speak Spanish, I view it as a learning opportunity. As an ESL teacher, I know the difficulty of learning a language when you can't read in your own. Even those who are educated can struggle with language. Language acquisition can be difficult when you are an adult.
All this immigrant rhetoric is just a popular way to cloak racism in respectability. We are truly above this hatefulness.
Even here in Texas, the majority believe illegal immigrants to offer greater benefit than problems. This study was published in the Daĺlas Morning News.
Most of us aren't opposed to educating children, legal or illegal. It is in our favor to educate those who can contribute greatly to our Texas economy and richness of culture.
I don’t object to those who speak Spanish, I view it as a learning opportunity. As an ESL teacher, I know the difficulty of learning a language when you can't read in your own. Even those who are educated can struggle with language. Language acquisition can be difficult when you are an adult.
All this immigrant rhetoric is just a popular way to cloak racism in respectability. We are truly above this hatefulness.
1
Actually, undocumented immigrants cost you very little. The truth is that undocumented immigrants contribute more in payroll taxes than they will ever consume in public benefits.
Take Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), unauthorized immigrants -- who are not eligible to receive Social Security benefits -- have paid $100 billion into the fund over the past decade. Non-citizen immigrant adults and children are about 25% less likely to be signed up for Medicaid than their poor native-born equivalents and are also 37% less likely to receive food stamps, according to a 2013 study by the Cato Institute. Undocumented immigrants do not qualify for assistance social services unless they commit identity fraud, which is extremely rare.
Take Social Security. According to the Social Security Administration (SSA), unauthorized immigrants -- who are not eligible to receive Social Security benefits -- have paid $100 billion into the fund over the past decade. Non-citizen immigrant adults and children are about 25% less likely to be signed up for Medicaid than their poor native-born equivalents and are also 37% less likely to receive food stamps, according to a 2013 study by the Cato Institute. Undocumented immigrants do not qualify for assistance social services unless they commit identity fraud, which is extremely rare.
1
I worked with Andy many years ago. His words are well spoken. If Andy who faced the end result of a heinous crime can see through Trumps bluster, it's hard to see how anyone else cannot.
6
What would his wife have wanted? She paid for this with her life.
4
"Illegal immigrant", "undocumented immigrant", "undocumented construction worker", so many PC expressions here and elsewhere. They are illegal aliens, no more, no less.
29
This was a brave post. Having endured the murder of his wife and mother of his baby, the challenges of the criminal justice system, and now the rhetoric of a venomous presidential campaign, he has the courage to speak his mind, in a compassionate, thoughtful way.
Who can argue with his point of view? Perhaps only another man who was put through the same emotional nightmare. Certainly not a man born to privilege who has not sacrificed really anything, ever.
Who can argue with his point of view? Perhaps only another man who was put through the same emotional nightmare. Certainly not a man born to privilege who has not sacrificed really anything, ever.
6
I find Mr Ostroy words inspiring and kind. How difficult must it be to restrain the anger and frustration of having to live with this terrible injustice.
3
And the writer says "...fearing she would report him and have him deported". If he had not been afraid of being report, if he had had a path to legal residence, then maybe the entire tragedy would not have happened at all.
5
The perpetrator committed the murder. Blaming the system is a cop-out.
8
I'm sorry, that that is a terribly weak argument. Do you think the killer was justified to kill an innocent because he feared that he would be exposed and punished for a crime he had already committed (immigrating illegally)?
If so, then what makes you think this man, if he had a pathway to citizenship, wouldn't kill someone who knew of him committing any other crime (great or small)?
If so, then what makes you think this man, if he had a pathway to citizenship, wouldn't kill someone who knew of him committing any other crime (great or small)?
8
Thank you for sharing your story with us all. Showing compassion and empathy during at time when grieving could lead to you lashing out at all immigrants takes much courage. Thank you also for enlightening us about the media mercenaries like FOX "News" O'Reilly and Kelly who sought to get you to tell your tale if that is it was slanted toward their nativist conservative audience.
I notice in some of the comments which disagree with you use it to show us not only their lack of sympathy but use this to show us their ignorance. In one sentence they put you down for going easy on the killer by referring to him as "undocumented". They wanted you to call him illegal, to blame liberals Democrats, President Obama and Hillary for being accessories to this crime. Then they have the nerve to claim they are no xenophobes? What gall indeed.
You have my deepest respect for your stance, and acting as a lightning rod for those you deem it necessary to criticize in your time of sorrow.
DD
Manhattan
I notice in some of the comments which disagree with you use it to show us not only their lack of sympathy but use this to show us their ignorance. In one sentence they put you down for going easy on the killer by referring to him as "undocumented". They wanted you to call him illegal, to blame liberals Democrats, President Obama and Hillary for being accessories to this crime. Then they have the nerve to claim they are no xenophobes? What gall indeed.
You have my deepest respect for your stance, and acting as a lightning rod for those you deem it necessary to criticize in your time of sorrow.
DD
Manhattan
5
Sorry for your loss. So glad that all Americans aren't like that zenaphobe Trump. He's such an awful excuse for a human.
4
Thank you for this essay. It contains a perspective that few of us, fortunately, can have, but that all of us need to hear.
5
Thank you.
5
Clapping and typing through tears for you.
5
Trump is not anti-immigrant. But he, like many of us, has zero tolerance for our government's deliberate fecklessness in securing the border in an effort to squelch all the problems that stem from illegal immigration.
16
I commend your seeing the individual's heinous behavior rather than seeing him as part of a group. After all it was HIS wrongdoing. In general, I see far too many people grouping anyone that does not look or sound "American" as a person that must be in violation of our immigration laws. Not everyone with an accent is illegal. And what is "looking and sounding American" anyway.
7
Mr. Ostroy -- I remember the news about your wife's murder very well, it was horrible and horrifying to read about. To this stranger, she seemed to be an extremely vibrant, interesting, and interested woman. (And the loss to your daughter, incalculable.) In any case I wanted to add one more voice saying I still remember, and to add how glad I am that some kind of life and way forward has unfurled for you.
18
What a profound tribute to Adrienne. I live in the West Village. If you live here also I feel great joy having you as a neighbor.
11
He didn't live in the apartment in which this murder took place. According to the court's dismissal of his law suits against the landlord and contractor, the apartment was the wife's studio. The family domicile was elsewhere.
1
I respect and admire this courageous writer. Perhaps he should interview on ALL networks irrespective of party affiliation. It would be a stark reminder of the kind of country we seek on so many levels.
What a tremendous example this writer has set for his daughter. And for those privileged to have read this story.
What a tremendous example this writer has set for his daughter. And for those privileged to have read this story.
4
Thank you for sharing your painful story and having the wisdom to remind us that the overwhelming majority of crimes committed on American citizens are committed by -----American citizens.
5
176,000?
Completely untrue.
Completely untrue.
2
If anyone is interested in seeing the talented Ms. Shelly's work, check out the lovely film "Waitress" -- which she wrote, directed and also appears in.
7
I saw "Waitress" and loved it. Then an article came out later, that Ms. Shelley had been murdered. The details, such as that it was at the hands of someone illegally here, I didn't know until now.
And I'm FURIOUS.
Over and over again, the media is careful to omit such details, lest the sentiment against ILLEGAL behavior by the foreign born, raise more anger.
But shouldn't anyone be angry when someone commits a serious wrongdoing, cheats to get an unfair advantage, and then demands that their behavior be forgotten, forgiven...even REWARDED?
There is no moral imperative to accept this from people who clearly have shown that no rules, or laws should apply to them.
Even as they apply to the rest of us and we are accountable. Such as driving without a license, or using someone else's identity.
There are glaring double standards when it comes to accountability. Our world is shrinking, our nation could NEVER accommodate everyone that wants to live here.
It's long past time that those from dysfunctional countries, take their brain trust and whatever an illegal immigrant has accomplished here, and apply it to improving their lot where they were born.
And I'm FURIOUS.
Over and over again, the media is careful to omit such details, lest the sentiment against ILLEGAL behavior by the foreign born, raise more anger.
But shouldn't anyone be angry when someone commits a serious wrongdoing, cheats to get an unfair advantage, and then demands that their behavior be forgotten, forgiven...even REWARDED?
There is no moral imperative to accept this from people who clearly have shown that no rules, or laws should apply to them.
Even as they apply to the rest of us and we are accountable. Such as driving without a license, or using someone else's identity.
There are glaring double standards when it comes to accountability. Our world is shrinking, our nation could NEVER accommodate everyone that wants to live here.
It's long past time that those from dysfunctional countries, take their brain trust and whatever an illegal immigrant has accomplished here, and apply it to improving their lot where they were born.
3
What does "love thy neighbor as thyself" mean? You are only civil to people who literally live next door? And/or you do so only if it is convenient and/or requires no sharing or sacrifice? Or perhaps it is just a phrase you learned in childhood and doesn't really mean anything? If you are Christian or of another religion, can you, in full good conscience, ignore this universal commandment or not apply it to immigrants, "legal" or not?
2
Mr. Ostroy, I am sorry for your loss. Thank you for writing this essay. Immigrants are so easily scapegoated for so many problems we have in this country. That said, I do have one issue with what you wrote:
"America was created by, is governed by and — with the exception of Native Americans — is inhabited by immigrants and their descendants, generations of whom came here to escape religious and ethnic persecution."
You left out another important exception: African-Americans brought to the U.S. as slaves. They were not immigrants fleeing persecution and poverty. Therefore, there are many citizens living in this country who are not the descendants of immigrants. I think that it's important to recognize this fact.
"America was created by, is governed by and — with the exception of Native Americans — is inhabited by immigrants and their descendants, generations of whom came here to escape religious and ethnic persecution."
You left out another important exception: African-Americans brought to the U.S. as slaves. They were not immigrants fleeing persecution and poverty. Therefore, there are many citizens living in this country who are not the descendants of immigrants. I think that it's important to recognize this fact.
11
It is intriguing ... the Trumpian logic that violence perpetrated by a small minority of Muslim or Mexican immigrants (legal or illiegal) should be used as justification for a blanket policy which would discriminate against all of "them", on the basis of the risk their group is said to represent.
Any chance of deploying that same logic to the Trumpian-NRA firearms policy? ... that "people (crazed individuals with guns) kill people", so maybe some of "them" should be stopped from, or at least checked before buying firearms, on the basis they represent a generalized risk? or that automatic weapons should be banned because of their risk? ... I thought not.
Any chance of deploying that same logic to the Trumpian-NRA firearms policy? ... that "people (crazed individuals with guns) kill people", so maybe some of "them" should be stopped from, or at least checked before buying firearms, on the basis they represent a generalized risk? or that automatic weapons should be banned because of their risk? ... I thought not.
9
Thank you for this big, generous, well-reasoned and realistic thinkpiece; a fitting tribute to your wife.
6
I do just wonder that calling the killer undocumented, rather than an illegal alien - as the facts suggest, somehow helps.
17
People can and should be able to choose their own words, but the choice of 'undocumented' is inaccurate. They probably have residency documents, just not legal documents to be present in the US. 'Illegal alien' is a very accurate descriptor.
This debate over words is less important the the debate over immigration. The left sees immigration controls as somehow unfair and cruel. The right sees them as a necessary and appropriate part of civilized society. Whether or not this on 'depraved killer...simply happened to be undocumented' doesn't change our governments responsibility to support reasonable immigration laws -- that sometimes are unfair to 'dreamers' and other times keep out 'depraved killers'.
This debate over words is less important the the debate over immigration. The left sees immigration controls as somehow unfair and cruel. The right sees them as a necessary and appropriate part of civilized society. Whether or not this on 'depraved killer...simply happened to be undocumented' doesn't change our governments responsibility to support reasonable immigration laws -- that sometimes are unfair to 'dreamers' and other times keep out 'depraved killers'.
3
Were it not for this illegal alien murdering your wife, Mr. Ostroy, your daughter would still have a mother.
I'm sorry for your loss but Donald Trump is 100% correct.
I'm sorry for your loss but Donald Trump is 100% correct.
26
And were it not for the NRA and its supporters blindly defending gun ownership rights, thousands of daughters and sons would still have their mothers and fathers, and vice versa.
For that, Hillary Clinton is 100% correct.
For that, Hillary Clinton is 100% correct.
2
YOU can choose to deal with this as you see fit.
Millions and millions of other Americans see it differently.
We don't want the same thing happening to us, a loved one, a friend or another American.
People in countries not their own, illegally, are lacking morals. It's as simple as that. They are not to be trusted.
Millions and millions of other Americans see it differently.
We don't want the same thing happening to us, a loved one, a friend or another American.
People in countries not their own, illegally, are lacking morals. It's as simple as that. They are not to be trusted.
21
"People in countries not their own, illegally, are lacking morals. It's as simple as that. They are not to be trusted." Maybe you think this sounds logical, but it's in clear contradiction of the evidence. The facts are, illegal immigrants are much more law-abiding than US citizens, and it figures: they have a stronger incentive not to attract the attention of law enforcement.
Btw; if you don't want the same to happen to your loved one, why not try to do something about the hundreds of millions of guns in your country?
Btw; if you don't want the same to happen to your loved one, why not try to do something about the hundreds of millions of guns in your country?
Stopping illegal immigration, like drugs, is simple.
Don't hire the undocumented workers and don't buy the drugs.
It is a demand-side problem.
Don't hire the undocumented workers and don't buy the drugs.
It is a demand-side problem.
22
WANNA TRUMP TRUMP? Your wife's killer was a violent psychopath. He used the excuse of fear of deportation as an excuse to perpetrate a horrendous crime and snuff out her young life. You did not get an eye for an eye; but you got the relief of ridding yourself of the torture of a trial. But look at Trump! He may not out and out murder people, but he shows no empathy or remorse for the women who have come forth to accuse him of sexual assaults he perpetrated years ago. We heard him on his video describe how he indulged in impulsively assaulting women sexually, using the putrid excuse that he was a "kissing magnet." BARF! Then he threatens to sue the victims after ridiculing them and denying he ever knew them at all. Trump many not murder people directly; but his violence and utter disregard for the feelings and rights of others has the effect of deadening the spirit. A sort of deadening that accompanies the traumatic stress of vicious assaults. Trump said clearly that he planned and enjoyed them. All of those vile acts look worthy of deportation to me. Too bad he can't be stripped of his citizenship, given the fact that he has no basic decency or conscience. Let's all just give him what he asked for in Panama City FL--cast our votes for Trump on 11/28!
4
Mr. Ostroy:
Thank you for the thoughtful article. You most clearly demonstrate the power of forgiveness. If you let Mr. Pillco's vile actions cascade into the xenophobic zeitgeist of Mr. Trump's world, you would never be free of this poison. Raging against immigrants while employing them under the table to tend our lawns, cook our food, care for our children et al. is a recipe for madness.
You have shown us a better way. Thank you.
Thank you for the thoughtful article. You most clearly demonstrate the power of forgiveness. If you let Mr. Pillco's vile actions cascade into the xenophobic zeitgeist of Mr. Trump's world, you would never be free of this poison. Raging against immigrants while employing them under the table to tend our lawns, cook our food, care for our children et al. is a recipe for madness.
You have shown us a better way. Thank you.
6
In a yet to be published comment, noted the hypocrisy in author's use of his wife's brutal death to send a political message, to use her demise as a way of attacking TRUMP. If secure borders, as DT and others have suggested ,were fact instead of fiction, his wife's killer would not have been allowed into the country. But is this the future of America in microcosm:0pen borders from which, by and large, 1 percenters r protected in their exclusive buffer zone communities, leaving the rest of America at the mercy of undocumented aliens, most of whom r law abiding, but others who r not?No American objects to the one million immigrants accepted yearly, who wait their turn in line.(Juliana waited 2 years before getting her visa from US Consulate in Accra.)Otherwise, border security is a joke, Ask any Honduran who has entered the US w/o so much as a bye ur leave from anyone. Thanks very much, President Obama.One law for the liberal elites, and another for the common folk. Can anyone imagine affordable housing units going up alongside HRC's mansion in Chappequa, or near the posh, exclusive address that the Obama's will have in DC?
14
How disheartening to see the first three comments have ignored the author's central message in favor of their own narrative--the killer was illegal and he killed. He was also young and male, two categories we should watch carefully as they commit an outsized number of crimes. Do we want to go there? What most threatens America is not illegal immigrants but the mindset willing to use blame as an explanation, a weapon and a solution.
5
Mr. Ostroy, I admire your courage for speaking out and your willingness to revisit a painful loss. You talk about Native Americans and everyone else as being an immigrant; however, Native Americans are also immigrants as they crossed over from Asia to occupy the Americas. Also I dislike the term Native Americans which is a bow to political correctness which has become a plague upon this land
4
Well said,sir. The rhetoric only inflames people into acting as the depraved man who killed your wife did. I am sorry for your and your daughter's loss. It must weigh on you heavily as well as the harassment to speak out on it. I hope that post election, things will be less painful for you. Thank you for writing this piece.
7
Thank you. It is so important that people hear the message that most undocumented immigrants are not criminals and that the data is being severely exaggerated by Trump and his ilk to foment hate just to get votes. They don't care that hate leads to violence, just as we are now seeing in an increased level of aggression towards many non-whites: including bomb threats against Muslims, "go back where you came from" against Asian-Americans and others. It grieves me that we are becoming a country of hatred and apathy. Thank you, that despite your own personal pain you took the time to send a message of reason and caring. I salute you.
5
Americans aren't upset about illegal immigration because of its impact on crime rates, but because of the social turmoil it creates. Legal immigration produces a highly diverse stream of immigrants who come speaking a multitude of languages from a multitude of countries and cultures. Their tremendous diversity encourages them to assimilate and acculturate into American society rather than coalescing in racial and ethnic enclaves. They also tend to possess the skills and education required to flourish in U.S. society. Illegal immigration produces a non-diverse, low-skilled and poorly educated stream of migrants who lack the skills and education required to assimilate, acculturate and flourish in U.S. society. Since the majority speak little English or no English, we have to create expensive dual-language education programs. Since the majority of illegal immigrants are Hispanics who settle in states like California, Texas, or New Mexico that already have Hispanic majorities, they decrease rather than increase diversity. We don’t need illegal immigration to spur the economy or sustain population levels. We can increase legal immigration simply by raising legal immigration quotas.
49
Legal immigration produces a highly diverse stream of immigrants who come speaking a multitude of languages from a multitude of countries and cultures. Their tremendous diversity encourages them to assimilate and acculturate into American society rather than coalescing in racial and ethnic enclaves. They also tend to possess the skills and education required to flourish in U.S. society.
that's 100% incorrect. legal immigrants are more likely to use welfare (51% v 39% according to the census bureau). research (read robert putnam) has shown more diversity increases social tensions. also, the #1 way to enter america legally isn't via skills, it's via family reunification, which has no skill requirements.
that's 100% incorrect. legal immigrants are more likely to use welfare (51% v 39% according to the census bureau). research (read robert putnam) has shown more diversity increases social tensions. also, the #1 way to enter america legally isn't via skills, it's via family reunification, which has no skill requirements.
1
Mr. Case, Mr. Ostroy's point is that Trump is campaigning on the false issue that illegal immigrants are largely criminal, and that is just not true. In addition, Hispanic immigrants, legal and illegal, are in far more states than you name in your comment: New York, Colorado, Florida, and many other states.
Many illegal immigrants have children that become educated and succeed. And if you look at the history of legal immigration in this country, it is chock full of groups, Italian, Irish, Greek, German, Chinese, Korean, Portuguese, , Indian, South American, and others, many of who came in as low-wage workers and over the last 170 years. It's a myth that Hispanics refuse to learn English. Perhaps the first to arrive here struggle with the language, but their children learn it pretty quickly. I have friends whose Greek, Italian, Thai, and other foreign parents or grandparents didn't learn to speak or write English completely and no one is criticizing them in the same way that you criticize Hispanics, who happen to be among the hardest workers in my community.
Many illegal immigrants have children that become educated and succeed. And if you look at the history of legal immigration in this country, it is chock full of groups, Italian, Irish, Greek, German, Chinese, Korean, Portuguese, , Indian, South American, and others, many of who came in as low-wage workers and over the last 170 years. It's a myth that Hispanics refuse to learn English. Perhaps the first to arrive here struggle with the language, but their children learn it pretty quickly. I have friends whose Greek, Italian, Thai, and other foreign parents or grandparents didn't learn to speak or write English completely and no one is criticizing them in the same way that you criticize Hispanics, who happen to be among the hardest workers in my community.
1
You mention "expensive" school dual programs created for kids of illegal immigrants that don't speak English. Well, in NYC more and more English speaking families put their kids in bilingual programs when they can so their kids learn another language. I meet them at the parks where I go with my Cuban- Dominican- Lebanese-African American Goddaughter. I hear the English speaking families speaking in broken Spanish trying to reinforce the Spanish their kids learned in school that week.
2
Mr. Ostroy's point is simple. Yes, there are people here illegally. But the vast majority of them are here simply to avoid persecution or poverty.
Unfortunately, there will be killers in any group of humans. While keeping out this one person might have prevented Mr. Ostroy's wife's death, that one death is merely noise in the total number of random killing's in this country. Mr. Ostroy is bravely pointing out that you shouldn't use this anomaly to demonize a class of humans. The statistics don't support it.
Unfortunately, there will be killers in any group of humans. While keeping out this one person might have prevented Mr. Ostroy's wife's death, that one death is merely noise in the total number of random killing's in this country. Mr. Ostroy is bravely pointing out that you shouldn't use this anomaly to demonize a class of humans. The statistics don't support it.
7
Two papers in one:
"But Adrienne was not murdered by an illegal immigrant, per se. She fell victim to a depraved killer who simply happened to be an undocumented immigrant."
and
"Yes, some illegal immigrants commit crimes, some of them violent."
"But Adrienne was not murdered by an illegal immigrant, per se. She fell victim to a depraved killer who simply happened to be an undocumented immigrant."
and
"Yes, some illegal immigrants commit crimes, some of them violent."
8
Andy Ostroy’s story is a welcome tribute to those who are aware of the mean ways people defame everybody that is in the US, but isn’t borne there. But I would like to add something to this discussion. Mr. Ostroy is glad that he ‘took the deal’, because otherwise the murderer of his wife could come away with manslaughter, which would keep him in jail for only a couple of years. Although I very well understand his emotions, I wonder what it would have helped him in overcoming the sorrow of his wife’s demise when that would have happened. His notion in this case looks more, maybe, like revenge, which, I think, could be not justified. Mr. Ostroy even suggests that he really wanted the killer to get a sentence for life. But perhaps it was manslaughter, for example when uncontrollable panic seized the killer when confronted with his wife?
Is 25 years in prison a lenient sentence? Is it wrong that the convict will be released and sent back to his country when 44? Is this reasoning ‘compassionate’? I am afraid that I am in severe doubt about that. Again, I sympathise with Mr. Ostroy, it would be a disaster when Mr. Trump got to be your president. A man with ideas that are so far from compassionate, so full of injustice, so sad .....
Is 25 years in prison a lenient sentence? Is it wrong that the convict will be released and sent back to his country when 44? Is this reasoning ‘compassionate’? I am afraid that I am in severe doubt about that. Again, I sympathise with Mr. Ostroy, it would be a disaster when Mr. Trump got to be your president. A man with ideas that are so far from compassionate, so full of injustice, so sad .....
And why is revenge wrong? Justice is society's revenge on behalf of the victim. Different societies have different ideas as to what is the appropriate amount and nature of punishment but no society forgoes punishment altogether. I am against death penalty on general principles but if this killer's life and health are irrevocably ruined in jail, this would be only what he deserves.
2
Of course immigrants--even illegal immigrants--are not depraved killers by nature. But your wife would be alive if the US government enforced our immigration laws, as would Kathryn Steinle and more than 100 other Americans. Unfortunately, the US has failed to enforce immigration laws at least since the Reagan Amnesty of 1986. And as a VP of the open borders advocacy group, La Raza, Cecilia Munoz, now President Obama's chief Domestic Policy Advisor, was one of the people who worked to undermine enforcement beginning after the Reagan amnesty. That non-enforcement continued through the Clinton Administration, and the two subsequent administrations, despite the findings of a commission under that administration, led by the late Barbara Jordan, that advocated reducing legal immigration, a million-plus annually, to half a million, and strict enforcement of immigration laws.
Is it any surprise, then, that Trump (who seems to know little to nothing about immigration policy among many other faults) is so popular?
Is it any surprise, then, that Trump (who seems to know little to nothing about immigration policy among many other faults) is so popular?
28
So, what you're really saying is that Reagan granted amnesty to illegal aliens; George Bush failed to support enforcement; George W. Bush failed to support enforcement; and our current President, Barack Obama has, as is well known, been a far more aggressive deporter of illegal aliens than anybody else, ever. And the rate of illegal immigration is way down.
THIS is why the Trumpster build-a-wall faction hates Democrats?
THIS is why the Trumpster build-a-wall faction hates Democrats?
1
The murderer's immigration status was illegal. Therefore he was an illegal immigrant. Why is this a problem? She was murdered by a particular person with a particular status. If he hadn't been there, perhaps she would not be dead.
I understand Mr. Ostroy's grief and understand that he may not wish his wife's death to add fuel to the immigration debate but facts are facts. He has my deepest sympathy and I wish him peace.
I understand Mr. Ostroy's grief and understand that he may not wish his wife's death to add fuel to the immigration debate but facts are facts. He has my deepest sympathy and I wish him peace.
38
And if his wife was murdered by a green card holder or a person born here what would you do Justice Holmes?
6
Native-born citizens and green card holders have a right to be here. The Ecuadoran who murdered the author's wife had no eight to be here. He could have been deported before he committed the murder.
7
Henry - as we already have enough homicides without illegal immigrants, why invite more?
3
Well said. And deepest sympathies. And worth noting that lost in the midst of all the hysteria is the fact that everything the right wing is screaming about, border security, e-verify, could have been law today. But for the fact that it also provided a path to citizenship for those currently undocumented, for which the "Freedom Caucus" intimidated Speaker Boehner from allowing a vote in the House of Representatives.
11
E-Verify is well-established federal program that has been made mandatory in some states. The program does not offer a path to citizenship. More than 500,000 companies now use E-Verify.
4
Sorry, what I meant to say was the 2013 comprehensive immigration bill that provided for 40,000 additional border security troops as well as federally mandated e-verify could have been law today.
1
I have lots of friends and aquaintances who are here illegally. As far as I know illegal immigrants are not more dangerous than legal immigrants or immigrants who can trace their ancestors to the thirteen colonies. If there is data on this it should certainly be published.
That liberals now say undocumented instead of illegal does nothing to disentangle all of us from the laws we have created and depend on. If I drive without a licsence am I merely an undocumented driver? If I sneak aboard a flight to the west coast am I merely an undocumented passenger? The real question is what is the purpose of borders. If one decides that borders have a purpose at this moment in history, and that in fact everything about our lives is dependent on the efficacy of borders, then we should be honest enough to not use such sugar coated euphemisms as "undocumented" and imply the person who uses the expression "illegal immigrant" is a trump supporter. This is just liberal self congratulatory sanctimony.
As for the woman who was killed because the killer feared she would expose his immigration crime, -obviously few would do such a thing, but the causality of it all speaks for itself.
That liberals now say undocumented instead of illegal does nothing to disentangle all of us from the laws we have created and depend on. If I drive without a licsence am I merely an undocumented driver? If I sneak aboard a flight to the west coast am I merely an undocumented passenger? The real question is what is the purpose of borders. If one decides that borders have a purpose at this moment in history, and that in fact everything about our lives is dependent on the efficacy of borders, then we should be honest enough to not use such sugar coated euphemisms as "undocumented" and imply the person who uses the expression "illegal immigrant" is a trump supporter. This is just liberal self congratulatory sanctimony.
As for the woman who was killed because the killer feared she would expose his immigration crime, -obviously few would do such a thing, but the causality of it all speaks for itself.
10
Many criminological studies suggest there are not simply good people and bad people, but that circumstances can drive someone to actions that they would normally avoid. This would suggest the killer's status -- both his precarious residence and his already being outside the law -- may, in fact, have had an influence on his actions. It also follows, however, that legal asylum could have prevented the crime just as effectively as deportation.
3
Do those who want to deport 11 million people ever stop to consider the cost and consequences of such an act? And, just how would we get other countries to cooperate with us? Would they simply dump thousands of men, women and children in an airport or harbor and leave them there to be jailed or murdered? Many countries require ID cards to control hiring. The same folks who want to forcibly deport the undocumented object to the idea of that practice here...and many hire undocumented workers, then under pay them and complain about their presence, some undoubtedly hoping to avoid paying earned wages after the work is completed.
It should also be noted that the number of people crossing the border illegally from Mexico has decreased while the number of Chinese doing so is growing. But, I understand that the Chinese have money. Is this true?
It should also be noted that the number of people crossing the border illegally from Mexico has decreased while the number of Chinese doing so is growing. But, I understand that the Chinese have money. Is this true?
6
Do those that want murderers prosecuted ever stop to consider the cost and consequences of prosecution? It is expensive. It is time consuming. The family members of the accused suffer.
See- it is always easier to do nothing than to do something.
Those here illegally need to leave- now. The problem only gets worse over time.
We landed men safely on the moon and brought them back to Earth. We can sanely, safely and humanly remove those that willfully broke our laws by entering our country illegally.
See- it is always easier to do nothing than to do something.
Those here illegally need to leave- now. The problem only gets worse over time.
We landed men safely on the moon and brought them back to Earth. We can sanely, safely and humanly remove those that willfully broke our laws by entering our country illegally.
8
yes, it's worth it.
7% of america's 50m k-12 public school students are illegals. avg. cost of about $12,7k to educate them. that comes out to about $44.5b *per year* just on public k-12 education for illegals.
7% of america's 50m k-12 public school students are illegals. avg. cost of about $12,7k to educate them. that comes out to about $44.5b *per year* just on public k-12 education for illegals.
5
The real demonization here comes from leftists who demonize anyone who favors enforcing our immigration laws as mindless xenophobes and nativists. We have every right to say who gets to come here and deport those who think our laws do not apply to them.
27
The emphasis on illegal immigrants as all bad is not a true picture. There are plenty of American citizens, naturalized and born here, along with legal immigrants, who commit horrendous crimes. Should we deport every person who commits a horrible crime to their country of origin even if they are several generations removed from that country? Or do we admit that just as there are good people who come from all over this planet, the same goes for bad people: they come from all over and what one does doesn't apply to all.
I am sorry that Adrienne Shelly was murdered. I am sorry that Andy Ostroy lost his wife and his daughter lost her mother. And I admire him for stating so clearly that the person who did this was a depraved killer which is considerably worse than being an illegal immigrant.
I am sorry that Adrienne Shelly was murdered. I am sorry that Andy Ostroy lost his wife and his daughter lost her mother. And I admire him for stating so clearly that the person who did this was a depraved killer which is considerably worse than being an illegal immigrant.
9
There are plenty of people who would like to immigrate legally, who are law abiding, educated and know English.
Please explain to me why others can steal a march by simply sneaking in, or overstaying visas.
Please explain to me why others can steal a march by simply sneaking in, or overstaying visas.
14
Native-born Americans can't be deported. Illegal immigrations and naturalized citizens can be deported. The Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which President Bill Clinton signed into law in 1996 calls for the deportation of unauthorized immigrants, whether or not they have committed crimes other than violations of immigration laws. Diego Pillco, the Ecuadoran who murdered Adrienne Shelly, should have been deported before he committed a murder. The construction company that hired him routinely hired workers they knew were illegal immigrations. The company's executives should have been fined or imprisoned for violating laws against hiring illegal immigrants,
7
Come on hen3ry, no one has ever claimed that all or even most illegal immigrants are bad. However, a disproportionate percentage. of people who arrive illegally probably are bad. How large that percentage is is open to debate. And the fact that illegal immigrants are willing to break immigration laws indicates a probable willingness to break our other laws, too.
3
Stop making excuses for the killer. Most people are killed by someone they know. However, many illegals (who are unemployed and desperate) engage in crime to survive. In those cases should a burglary go wrong and the person is at home or enters during the crime they are killed. There are many cities and towns with information to support that fact.
25
Ostroy sued Pillco's employer for wrongful death, asking for ordinary and punitive damages. The lawsuit alleged that Pillco's employer was liable because it should not have hired an illegal immigrant. The allegations in the lawsuit are clearly inconsistent with this editorial, where Mr. Ostroy argues that Pillico's illegal immigration status is irrelevant. http://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/PDFS/2011/2011_31785.pdf
50
Perhaps Pillco would not have come here if it hadn't been for businesses willing to hire illegal immigrants. Why would a business hire an illegal? Let's count the ways. #1--They are cheaper than American labor. You don't have to pay them a minimum wage, and you don't have to pay payroll taxes and Social Security and Medicare for illegals, thus saving a butt-load of money and allowing the folks at the top to take home a lot more profit than if they'd hired someone legal; #2--They don't fuss about on-the-job safety; #3--They are often more highly skilled than American workers; #4--The lower labor cost of hiring illegals means a company can underbid its competition and get more work, thus more word-of-mouth advertising. Would we have a problem with illegal immigrants if businesses followed the law?
1
I'm not sure I've ever witnessed such flagrant hypocrisy.
"The allegations in the lawsuit are clearly inconsistent with this editorial, where Mr. Ostroy argues that Pillico's illegal immigration status is irrelevant."
"The allegations in the lawsuit are clearly inconsistent with this editorial, where Mr. Ostroy argues that Pillico's illegal immigration status is irrelevant."
2
All of my condolences to you. You are right, this monster received a mere slap on the wrist for snuffing out an innocent's life. Unfortunately the laxist judicial system responsible for this leniency is planting the seeds of its own destruction when vigilante groups emerge someday with clandestine 'courts' and 'trials' to rectify the inexplicable decisions of legitimate authorities. These court justices demonstrate their ignroance of history and culture : the Sicilian Mafia was established on fertile terrain where official rule of law was either lackadasical or absent.
4
Although I agree with Mr. Ostroy, I resent the PC term "undocumented", especially from Mr. Ostroy whose wife was murdered by a person who resided illegally in our country. Illegally, illegally, illegally. If you must use a word such as "documented", call him "documentably illegal".
PaulN, a documentably legal immigrant (if I am allowed to use this term since I've been a US citizen for over 30 years now)
PaulN, a documentably legal immigrant (if I am allowed to use this term since I've been a US citizen for over 30 years now)
15
I'm sorry for Mr. Ostroy's loss. But his politics and hypocrisy are maddening. Mr. Ostroy sued the construction company that hired Pillco claiming that “Pillco was an undocumented immigrant,” and that Adrienne would still be alive had Bradford not employed him. Based on this logic Adrienne would still be alive had the US enforced its immigration laws.
The fact is that the murder was motivated by fear of deportation. Mr. Pillco's immigration status had everything to do with the murder.
The fact is that the murder was motivated by fear of deportation. Mr. Pillco's immigration status had everything to do with the murder.
49
Yes. There is clear hypocrisy in this act (if it is true - how do I know?). But it is not being illegal per se that was at issue; more likely it was the fear of being deported. Had there been a process of citizenship he was enrolled in, he might not have had the same fear. (Who knows all the other factors in his "back story"?) We are making a lot of guesses in this, but to be fair and rational (is this entirely possible?) they have to cut both ways. He was illegal. I agree. He felt he had nowhere to turn. That may be "our" responsibility. He committed a horrible act. No argument. She might still be alive if "we" had a process of legalization this person may have been part of. (We don't know what other threats he was struggling under.) It's a terrible situation no matter how you slice it, but as a nation, we should be able to find a better way than the way we have.
1
What an interesting bit of information. And yes, what hypocrisy!
Blame the undocumented nature of the killer when there's a lawsuit to be had and then criticize politicians who raise the issue of allowing these individuals to remain in the US.
Do US citizens comment crimes? You bet. Why import more? Anyone is welcome in the country as long as they go through the process. Will that screen out all the problems? No. But in this case, there would have been no motive for the crime.
Blame the undocumented nature of the killer when there's a lawsuit to be had and then criticize politicians who raise the issue of allowing these individuals to remain in the US.
Do US citizens comment crimes? You bet. Why import more? Anyone is welcome in the country as long as they go through the process. Will that screen out all the problems? No. But in this case, there would have been no motive for the crime.
5
So you're saying that on one hand he condemned this illegal immigrant and now he's OK with it - for political purposes.
I wish he hadn't been given column space.
I wish he hadn't been given column space.
3
While I agree with the author that some process of legal assimilation needs to be established, it is evident that his wife's murderer was afraid she would have him deported, and that was a key component in his depraved and horrible act. Had he not been afraid of that, who knows what he might have done. What if?... what if?... It would be best if we had more control of our borders. How can anyone argue with that? It would be best if those who are here (11 million, by estimate) were not terrified of being arrested and deported, thus living in a desperate fear. And in each case, I mean "best" for all of us, them and us. If we agree that sending "them" all back where they came from is right, then why not all of us, other than "native" Americans (who themselves had ancestors who came here from elsewhere, before, presumably, borders and laws)? Where is the line fairly drawn? It will always be arbitrary and punitive. We need a compassionate and effective process towards citizenship, for those outside who want to come in, and for those already here.
5
A ridiculous response to a simple set of facts, a frightened illegal immigrant could find no other answer to his situation than to kill another person. That doesn't sound right in any world, but certainly not in this one. And then to find a rationale in what's fair by a strained analogy of who belongs here, really stretches the argument to fantasy. If you don't like your fellow citizens that much perhaps somewhere else would be better.
4
Undocumented immigrants are very susceptible to the vitriolic criticism that Donald Trump always insisting. His instigation conceives the public anger toward these immigrants; they bring crimes in the United States.
Is that 100% right? That's not true as stated in the article.
In fact, the situation in Korea is not very different from the United States. In Korea, undocumented or illegal immigrants sometimes commit some atrocious crimes. But the difference is that they are not sentenced to death or killed.
Is that 100% right? That's not true as stated in the article.
In fact, the situation in Korea is not very different from the United States. In Korea, undocumented or illegal immigrants sometimes commit some atrocious crimes. But the difference is that they are not sentenced to death or killed.
2
I am sorry for the authors loss. The United States has been always a country for following laws. My dad and my uncle, of Asian Indian descent, came to here legally. They like other immigrants believed if you work hard you can and achieve the American Dream. Why should illegal immigrants be allowed to circumvent the law? Also, illegal immigrants place a huge burden in our healthcare, social services etc that we taxpayers end up footing the bill for. Laws were created for a reason and apply to everyone.
33
If immigration quotas were set fairly, you would have a point but the quotas are set for political purposes. Mexicans and most other Latin Americans don't have a chance to come here "legally" while Asians have enjoyed relatively free access in recent years. Yet this country willingly employs undocumented Mexicans to do work no American wants to do at illegally low wages: pick crops, clean houses, do yard work, take care of children and the elderly. When immigration policies are reformed so access is fair and equal, "illegal" immigration will end.
2
@ BarbT
Who used to do that work?
Or was it not done before Reagan opened the illegal immigration floodgates?
Who used to do that work?
Or was it not done before Reagan opened the illegal immigration floodgates?
4
Thank you for your thoughtful article. Your loss is beyond any words of mine. In truth, we do have an immigration problem and we do need to address the question of those who are undocumented and illegally entered our country. We need to do so as much to protect them as to protect ourselves. Many who established productive lives here including those with families should be allowed to stay and many may have to go home unless we determine that "home" is so dangerous that refugee status is appropriate. I don't see how this can be accomplished quickly or without some expansion of the governmental infrastructure that handles immigration issues. We will need to secure as borders as well with the understanding that perfect should not be the enemy of good. I think that this issue is beyond mere questions of legal versus illegal and will require a more nuanced response and the acceptance that it will not be perfect. Unfortunately we will not accomplish this with the current congress and Mr Trump's proposal will create the potential for abusive behavior on a vast scale. That is something his supporters are trivializing and if his plans come to fruition will represent a chapter of American history few will be proud of. Harsh rhetoric and raw emotions rarely make for good and humane policies for dealing with those who are viewed as "not us". I am saddened that those who claim deep faith are not as involved here as they are in issues involving making cakes for weddings.
82
It appears some may have swallowed Trumpian/Hitlerian type of vicious propaganda that may be hurting them. I feel sorry for those who have gone down the path of willful blindness voting for degenerates promising to build walls with Mexican labor, fire up the economy with burning coal killing our children with dirty air, and asking idiotic questions such as "if we have nuclear weapons, why don't we use them".
3
With a population of 350 million, we do not need anymore people. We have enough congestion and pollution. Our immigration policy should be for the benefit of our own citizens. For fairness and simplicity, I recommend that we stop all immigration. Encourage tourism, but deport those who have overstayed their visas. Limit outstanding H1B to 150,000 and put replacement H1B visas out to auction.
12
One would do well to have a reasonable understanding of history. The implication is that 'documented' is a label that is falsely inferred to imply inferiority. That contrast is essentially perfect here. A criminal is a term that should be wholly separate from "immigrant" and or any status related to it. Immigrants can be babies, the elderly etc. They can encompass the entire range of humanity. The first and worst evil possible is racial profiling for the purpose of judging another human being because each person is an individual, whether a ruthless serial killer or "Mother Teresa" and we must know something about their nature and who they are and especially their values before we label them as good or bad. Tearing apart families and communities within our borders based solely on 'documentation' is both evil and profoundly self destructive...
We must both respect the law and our borders and deal with this in a merciful manner that reflects our nation' values. Ironically, both parties wholly support this but don't have the ability to carry it through because of divisive politics. Ugh.
We must both respect the law and our borders and deal with this in a merciful manner that reflects our nation' values. Ironically, both parties wholly support this but don't have the ability to carry it through because of divisive politics. Ugh.
2
A large portion of the xenophobic assertions about undocumented immigrants and murder rates came from a poorly documented article by Tom Tancredo written in an August 2015 online article for the Breitbart website: http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/aug/17/tom-tancredo... . Tancredo's numbers were shown to be far over the top. His analysis was grossly negligent. He did not do his own research, and the data he used relied on a a researcher who later was substantively ambivalent about his own data.
Yes, a few undocumented immigrants commit murder. Our existing government wants to get rid of those criminal elements. So do most of the rest of us, including other undocumented immigrants. But relying on a fallacious Breitbart essay to demonize 93% (rough estimate) of the rest? It is no surprise someone like Trump would push this. It is no surprise that Stephen Bannon's minions would go along. It is becoming apparent that the rest of our nation is both more sensible and understanding.
Yes, a few undocumented immigrants commit murder. Our existing government wants to get rid of those criminal elements. So do most of the rest of us, including other undocumented immigrants. But relying on a fallacious Breitbart essay to demonize 93% (rough estimate) of the rest? It is no surprise someone like Trump would push this. It is no surprise that Stephen Bannon's minions would go along. It is becoming apparent that the rest of our nation is both more sensible and understanding.
2
My use of "93%" above was careless. This was in reference to murderers in Texas, where roughly 7% (stats still hard to verify) of those killers were undocumented immigrants. The percentage of those committing serious crimes is far smaller. The Tancredo piece had implied that roughly 35% of those murderers were undocumented--a grossly and intentionally exaggerated number.
None of this changes the outlandish attempts to demonize undocumented immigrants, the proposals to tear families apart based on fallacious impressions and non-existent (verifiable) data. Again, almost every administration of any political stripes wants to go after undocumented criminal elements.
None of this changes the outlandish attempts to demonize undocumented immigrants, the proposals to tear families apart based on fallacious impressions and non-existent (verifiable) data. Again, almost every administration of any political stripes wants to go after undocumented criminal elements.
1
@ JSK
So 7% of those murdered would still be alive if an illegal alien had not been allowed to stay in the US.
Thanks for that.
So 7% of those murdered would still be alive if an illegal alien had not been allowed to stay in the US.
Thanks for that.
3
"...but in fact the figure is actually 176,000, according to Immigration and Customs Enforcement." Crime statistics are based on *reported* crime. Illegal aliens don't report a lot of crime that they experience, frequently from other illegal aliens, due to fear of being deported. Then there's the nit-noid stuff like the illegal alien who didn't have insurance and rear-ended my cousin's car and left her stuck with the bill.
Contrary to popular belief not all Americans are immigrants or descended from immigrants. An immigrants arrives into an *established* system. Ellis Island is the classic example. Myself and many other Americans are descended from *settlers*. A settler moves into a frontier or "wilderness" that is completely or mostly uninhabited. That describes the four migrations of British people to America (circa 1629 a.d. to 1775 a.d.): East Anglia to Massachusetts; South of England to Virginia; North Midlands to the Delaware Valley; Borderlands to the Appalachian backcountry.
A nation without secure, established borders isn't a nation, it's a dystopia in the making. It simply isn't asking too much for would-be immigrants to go through the legal immigration procedures to include vetting. The federal government and members of both parties have seriously failed the American People, most especially the ones like Mr. Ostroy and his wife.
Contrary to popular belief not all Americans are immigrants or descended from immigrants. An immigrants arrives into an *established* system. Ellis Island is the classic example. Myself and many other Americans are descended from *settlers*. A settler moves into a frontier or "wilderness" that is completely or mostly uninhabited. That describes the four migrations of British people to America (circa 1629 a.d. to 1775 a.d.): East Anglia to Massachusetts; South of England to Virginia; North Midlands to the Delaware Valley; Borderlands to the Appalachian backcountry.
A nation without secure, established borders isn't a nation, it's a dystopia in the making. It simply isn't asking too much for would-be immigrants to go through the legal immigration procedures to include vetting. The federal government and members of both parties have seriously failed the American People, most especially the ones like Mr. Ostroy and his wife.
15
It's true. Diego Pillco was not an illegal immigrant. He was not an immigrant at all. He just showed up. Immigrants complete some process of coming legally within the borders of another nation. They have an implied respect for the country they enter and its laws because they participate in a legal process and ask to be accepted. To call Diego Pillco an immigrant is akin to calling someone who breaks into your home your "guest".
We keep hearing that undocumented workers commit fewer crimes percentage-wise than citizens. Having said that what have you actually said? Undocumented workers would commit no crimes at all in this country if they were not in the country. Crime here would be reduced by whatever number of crimes were committed by the undocumented. And Diego Pillco would not have been here to commit his crime.
In 1982 we did pretty close to everything the apologists for undocumented immigration are asking for now and more. We didn't even enforce the penalties on employers envisioned by the act. Back then we had 4 million undocumented persons living in the US and now we have 11 million. So what exactly do advocates for open borders believe is going to happen if we pass more legislation?
One thing is sure. If there is "immigration reform" of the type advocated in these pages there will be more Diego Phillcos. And more Adrienne Shellys.
We keep hearing that undocumented workers commit fewer crimes percentage-wise than citizens. Having said that what have you actually said? Undocumented workers would commit no crimes at all in this country if they were not in the country. Crime here would be reduced by whatever number of crimes were committed by the undocumented. And Diego Pillco would not have been here to commit his crime.
In 1982 we did pretty close to everything the apologists for undocumented immigration are asking for now and more. We didn't even enforce the penalties on employers envisioned by the act. Back then we had 4 million undocumented persons living in the US and now we have 11 million. So what exactly do advocates for open borders believe is going to happen if we pass more legislation?
One thing is sure. If there is "immigration reform" of the type advocated in these pages there will be more Diego Phillcos. And more Adrienne Shellys.
23
Thanks for this piece.
While I am in favor of legal immigration, I do understand some people's desperation. And while it angers me when crimes are committed by illegal immigrants, I know that our native-born citizens are much more likely to commit crimes.
Who grabs a legally purchased gun from their basement arsenal to shoot up their entire family, their workplace, women's health clinics, and so on?
Who grabs an illegal purchased gun to shoot rival drug dealers and any poor souls in the line of fire, including women and children?
I'd like to deport them, but where to?
While I am in favor of legal immigration, I do understand some people's desperation. And while it angers me when crimes are committed by illegal immigrants, I know that our native-born citizens are much more likely to commit crimes.
Who grabs a legally purchased gun from their basement arsenal to shoot up their entire family, their workplace, women's health clinics, and so on?
Who grabs an illegal purchased gun to shoot rival drug dealers and any poor souls in the line of fire, including women and children?
I'd like to deport them, but where to?
4
Here's the part about which I'd like to see more discussion:
"Adrienne’s killer ... plea-bargained a murder conviction that sentenced him to 25 years with no parole and no ability to appeal. ... The district attorney’s office advised me to accept the deal rather than go to trial. It was an agonizing decision: roll the dice for a life sentence or possibly end up with a manslaughter conviction, with her killer receiving a meager three to five years in prison."
I've always felt we in America go for criminal sentences that are too long. My impression is that other countries impose shorter sentences for crimes than we do here. We're big on the punishment and retribution function of criminal sentencing, coming up way too short, I believe, in rehabilitation and preparing ex-convicts to assume some productive place in society upon their release.
I'm not a professional or scholar in the field of criminology, but I'd like to hear more from people who are. I'd like to see more of a debate about sentencing standards in this country.
"Adrienne’s killer ... plea-bargained a murder conviction that sentenced him to 25 years with no parole and no ability to appeal. ... The district attorney’s office advised me to accept the deal rather than go to trial. It was an agonizing decision: roll the dice for a life sentence or possibly end up with a manslaughter conviction, with her killer receiving a meager three to five years in prison."
I've always felt we in America go for criminal sentences that are too long. My impression is that other countries impose shorter sentences for crimes than we do here. We're big on the punishment and retribution function of criminal sentencing, coming up way too short, I believe, in rehabilitation and preparing ex-convicts to assume some productive place in society upon their release.
I'm not a professional or scholar in the field of criminology, but I'd like to hear more from people who are. I'd like to see more of a debate about sentencing standards in this country.
Rehabilitation is extremely important in the punishment aspect of many crimes, but murder is not one of those crimes. Japan has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world, and look at their punishment for murderers; hint, it isn't rehabilitation.
4
The issue with illegal immigration is not that some individual illegal immigrants are "bad hombres." The issue is that a country that can't lift 20% of its children out of poverty, provide health care for 17% of its population, or offer anything remotely resembling equal opportunities to its minorities can't continue to bring in more poor and poorly educated people from places with broken cultures where respect for other peoples' rights is the exception rather than the rule.
People living hand to mouth with no plausible path to a decent life do not make good neighbors. Our current policies on immigration and trade not only burden us with millions of new arrivals for whom that situation is the reality, they push more and more of our own citizens into that kind of precarious, marginal existence.
People living hand to mouth with no plausible path to a decent life do not make good neighbors. Our current policies on immigration and trade not only burden us with millions of new arrivals for whom that situation is the reality, they push more and more of our own citizens into that kind of precarious, marginal existence.
19
Many of the comments here seem to miss the nuanced point of Mr. Ostroy's poignant and insightful message. His wife was not "murdered by an illegal immigrant, per se" he wrote. The majority of undocumented workers are the salt of the earth for the economy, and the wide-spread sentiment against them is based on fear and racism, not on the civil crime of their being employed by US citizens without a work visa.
The point, overlooked by some hostile Trump supporters, is that scapegoating an entire minority group for the crimes of a few is as misguided as it is ignorant of the real problem. The roots of widespread crime will not change by directing enmity towards undocumented immigrants because they are not the source of universal problem but an easy target for a Trumped-up acrimony that divides our nation. The idea that Mr. Ostoy, so utterly affected by such a tragic loss, could display such compassion and empathy on this issue is estimable beyond words.
The point, overlooked by some hostile Trump supporters, is that scapegoating an entire minority group for the crimes of a few is as misguided as it is ignorant of the real problem. The roots of widespread crime will not change by directing enmity towards undocumented immigrants because they are not the source of universal problem but an easy target for a Trumped-up acrimony that divides our nation. The idea that Mr. Ostoy, so utterly affected by such a tragic loss, could display such compassion and empathy on this issue is estimable beyond words.
6
The majority of illegal aliens are a net loss to the US, a burden to the taxpayers, and their presence has decimated working class salaries, a fact even Liberal economist and Nobel prize winner Paul Krugman finally had to admit:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990DEFDC1430F934A15750C0A...
“Many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration — especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education than the average U.S. worker, they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans.”
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990DEFDC1430F934A15750C0A...
“Many of the worst-off native-born Americans are hurt by immigration — especially immigration from Mexico. Because Mexican immigrants have much less education than the average U.S. worker, they increase the supply of less-skilled labor, driving down the wages of the worst-paid Americans.”
3
The 'obvious distinction' is that had the killer been discovered and deported in time or, better yet, never permitted to enter the country in the first place, one illegal act would not have been allowed to create the opportunity for at least one more illegal and atrocious act. It does not mean that every illegal immigrant is a bad person but it does mean that we create additional, undue risk by permitting and enabling their illegal conduct. Risk to ourselves, our families and friends, and to our fellow Americans.
20
The author labels Donald Trump xenophobic because he promises to enforce the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act, which President Bill Clinton signed into law in 1996. This act, which passed with huge bi-partisan majorities in both houses, calls for the deportation of unauthorized immigrants. The author defends his daughter’s killer by arguing that “his rationale was no different from that of an American citizen who in the act of a crime kills his ‘witness’ to avoid prosecution and imprisonment.” But this is a false equivalency. We cannot deport Americans citizens, but we can deport illegal immigrants. No doubt, the author thinks his daughter’s killer deserves a path to citizenship once he becomes eligible for parole.
16
The author clearly states it was his wife who was murdered.
3
I and many readers share the pain over the loss of your wife. Mental illness has more to do with this. There are many many deaths due to those who are mentally and emotionally unstable. I see them often wandering the streets in various neighborhoods. For the most part they seem to mind their own business. But what about the lack of concern for these unfortunate souls?? And the lack of funding. A recap of mass shootings in this country would probably put the number of shooters who were mentally disturbed at around 50 percent. The other 50 seem to be disgruntled over something or someone. When trump made the unfortunate statement of saying that illegal immigrants were all thugs and murderers, he completely missed the point. The thugs and gangbangers are most often American citizens who have very little guidance and even less of an understanding ear to listen to their problems and grievances. These people also have mental and emotional problems often fueled by drugs. I do not feel that the United States can withstand much more of the invasion of people's from around the world who would rather stay here than go back to their own hellish country. At the same time most seem to be hardworking and grateful for the chance at a better life.
1
Mr. Ostroy is a truly remarkable man, one with an ability to feel the pain of loss without lashing out in an irrational fashion against the man who single-handedly caused that loss. I doubt that I could do it, and I hope I never have to, but Mr. Ostroy is an example for all of us.
On the other side of the coin are such execrable media personalities as Bill O’Reilly and Megyn Kelly, who seek to exploit the losses of others for their narrow political goals. The national basket of deplorables is filled not only with the ignorant, misogynistic, bigoted supporters of the presidential candidate of the Republican Party, but those in the media such as Bill O’Reilly and Megyn Kelly who make a career out of exploiting those base feelings.
On the other side of the coin are such execrable media personalities as Bill O’Reilly and Megyn Kelly, who seek to exploit the losses of others for their narrow political goals. The national basket of deplorables is filled not only with the ignorant, misogynistic, bigoted supporters of the presidential candidate of the Republican Party, but those in the media such as Bill O’Reilly and Megyn Kelly who make a career out of exploiting those base feelings.
5
The author asserts that “we need the kind of compassionate reform that Democrats have been advocating for decades in the face of persistent Republican obstructionism.” However, in 1983, Republican President Ronald Reagan signed a sweeping immigration reform bill that made any immigrant who'd entered the country before 1982 eligible for amnesty. The bipartisan bill was sponsored by Sen. Ted Kennedy (D-Mass), who promised: “We will secure the borders henceforth. We will never again bring forward another amnesty bill like this.” The 1983 amnesty bill promised a crackdown on future illegal immigration, but this promise was quickly forgotten. Instead, we were swamped by a tsunami of 11.5 million new illegal immigrants. Open border advocates has spent the three decades since the Reagan amnesty working to make illegal immigration more convenient. Now they are calling for a new ancestry. If elected, Hillary Clinton promises to issue executive orders shielding millions of illegal immigrants from deportation. If we grant a second amnesty, open border advocates will immediately start work to thwart any efforts to prevent future illegal immigration. With a decade or two, they will be calling for a third amnesty.
32
Whatever you think about illegal immigration, Mr. Ostroy has written a brave piece, precisely because it invites the harsh comments of those who don't share his opinion on the issue.
A welcome addition to the debate, from a person who understands the difficult decisions that must be made when facing limited options.
A welcome addition to the debate, from a person who understands the difficult decisions that must be made when facing limited options.
347
You've misjudged this guy, He sued Pillco's employer, blaming his wife's death on the fact that Pillco was an illegal. Now he says it doesn't matter. The lawsuit and this editorial are directly contradictory.
15
Thank you for this brave piece of writing that provides a rational perspective on illegals. I feel many commenters are missing the point and use reductionist logic to state your wife would be alive if we had tight border security. This reasoning ignores the key fact the murdered was deranged whose motive may not have anything to do with fear of being deported....that's just an easy answer.
12
Diego Pillco confessed that robbery was his original motive, although police think the robbery may have become an attempted rape. The Ecuadoran told the court he owned thousands to the people who smuggled him into the country. The author unsuccessfully sued the construction company for hiring his wife's killer.
14
I am in tears, for your loss and your generosity of spirit.
28
Dear Mr Ostrov, your wife's death touched me deeply when it occurred. You touch me again with your refusal to allow it to be used for political ends. Thank you for your lesson. I wish you and your daughter much love. Of course that is how you should honor your remarkable wife.
618
However, it's been okay for the NYTimes, the LATimes and those running for office to use illegal immigrants for THEIR political gain?
So much so, that it's illegal immigrants that have more political clout, than those who have the right to actually vote for those who are betraying their offices in favor of illegal immigration.
Over and over again, the media and other political interests keep tugging at the heartstrings over the problems that illegal immigrants incur when they break the law.
When you break laws, THAT is what's supposed to happen!
But how often to we hear of those who have suffered greatly because of illegal immigration?
Or because of an illegal immigrant?
I'm so DONE with this manipulation by and on behalf of illegal immigrants!
So much so, that it's illegal immigrants that have more political clout, than those who have the right to actually vote for those who are betraying their offices in favor of illegal immigration.
Over and over again, the media and other political interests keep tugging at the heartstrings over the problems that illegal immigrants incur when they break the law.
When you break laws, THAT is what's supposed to happen!
But how often to we hear of those who have suffered greatly because of illegal immigration?
Or because of an illegal immigrant?
I'm so DONE with this manipulation by and on behalf of illegal immigrants!
2
I'm sorry your lady was murdered.
Thank you for not blaming her murder on immigration, legal or otherwise. People who are willing to kill, other than self-defense or defending someone needing help, will kill no matter where they are or where they were born. Your wife was killed because a killer encountered her in a vulnerable position, not for any other reason.
Except for Native Americans, who are still mistreated to our shame, we're all immigrants or the descendants of immigrants. We, as a nation, need to grow up and accept that simple fact.
Thank you for not blaming her murder on immigration, legal or otherwise. People who are willing to kill, other than self-defense or defending someone needing help, will kill no matter where they are or where they were born. Your wife was killed because a killer encountered her in a vulnerable position, not for any other reason.
Except for Native Americans, who are still mistreated to our shame, we're all immigrants or the descendants of immigrants. We, as a nation, need to grow up and accept that simple fact.
269
There are no native Americans. The people you call native Americans are also immigrants, but arrived before the western Europeans.
5
"People who are willing to kill, other than self-defense"
For the killer it was self defense. The woman posed a threat to his life by possibly turning him in as an illegal. Doesn't any one know how to use logic any more? The prime cause was not his ability to kill. That ability is inherent in any of us. It was his motivation to kill.
For the killer it was self defense. The woman posed a threat to his life by possibly turning him in as an illegal. Doesn't any one know how to use logic any more? The prime cause was not his ability to kill. That ability is inherent in any of us. It was his motivation to kill.
9
Everyone on earth eho is not living in east Africa is an "immigrant" including native Americans. So what ? This has nothing to do with controlling our borders like every other country on earth has the right to do.
10
Incredibly, Mr. Ostroy, writes (referring to the man who was in our country illegally & who brutally murdered his wife, Adrienne):
"His rationale was no different from that of an American citizen who in the act of a crime kills his “witness” to avoid prosecution and imprisonment. Attributing his heinous act to his immigration status dilutes the truth that he lacked the ability to know right from wrong and had zero respect for human life."
The part which eludes me is, why is he defending someone who has zero respect for human life?
In his liberal, compassionate open-border rant, he's defending and rationalizing the crimes committed by illegal immigrants (yes, Mr. Ostroy, they are immigrants and they ARE here illegally. That makes them, by very definition of the law, illegal immigrants).
I feel sickened reading this piece, especially that end which calls for "compassionate reform" - (aka amnesty & citizenship for all illegal immigrants), which the author claims is what his wife would want. Unfortunately, Adrienne is not here to voice her own opinion.
Quite frankly, Mr. Ostroy, I find offensive your willingness to depict all Americans who don't want open borders as heartless xenophobes. That is simplistic and simply not true.
"His rationale was no different from that of an American citizen who in the act of a crime kills his “witness” to avoid prosecution and imprisonment. Attributing his heinous act to his immigration status dilutes the truth that he lacked the ability to know right from wrong and had zero respect for human life."
The part which eludes me is, why is he defending someone who has zero respect for human life?
In his liberal, compassionate open-border rant, he's defending and rationalizing the crimes committed by illegal immigrants (yes, Mr. Ostroy, they are immigrants and they ARE here illegally. That makes them, by very definition of the law, illegal immigrants).
I feel sickened reading this piece, especially that end which calls for "compassionate reform" - (aka amnesty & citizenship for all illegal immigrants), which the author claims is what his wife would want. Unfortunately, Adrienne is not here to voice her own opinion.
Quite frankly, Mr. Ostroy, I find offensive your willingness to depict all Americans who don't want open borders as heartless xenophobes. That is simplistic and simply not true.
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The author does not endorse open borders. Maybe read the article before you comment.
Mr. Ostroy's letter was anything but a "rant."
And, he condemns his wife's murderer as someone who has "zero respect for human life." He desired a sentence of life without parole for that man and he is still agonizing that the killer will walk free--although not in this country--when he is 44.
Finally, Mr. Ostroy described only DJT as a "xenophobic agitator," not anyone else.
Finally, finally, didn't you find it at least interesting that DJT's claim that two million illegal aliens have been convicted of crimes was grossly exaggerated? The true number, according to Mr. Ostroy, is 176,000.
While we can all agree on the need for immigration reform, and can energetically and civilly debate the details, it's hard to characterize DJT as anything but a xenophobic agitator, right?
And, he condemns his wife's murderer as someone who has "zero respect for human life." He desired a sentence of life without parole for that man and he is still agonizing that the killer will walk free--although not in this country--when he is 44.
Finally, Mr. Ostroy described only DJT as a "xenophobic agitator," not anyone else.
Finally, finally, didn't you find it at least interesting that DJT's claim that two million illegal aliens have been convicted of crimes was grossly exaggerated? The true number, according to Mr. Ostroy, is 176,000.
While we can all agree on the need for immigration reform, and can energetically and civilly debate the details, it's hard to characterize DJT as anything but a xenophobic agitator, right?
1
Mr. Ostroy in no way defended his wife's killer; he called him a "depraved killer,"
but made the point that depravity is not a unique (or common) characteristic of new immigrants any more than it is for older immigrant groups--from WASPS to Asians to Jews. I fear there are far too many people in this country who similarly mis-read any nuanced discussion of the many complex issues the country faces, including immigration.
but made the point that depravity is not a unique (or common) characteristic of new immigrants any more than it is for older immigrant groups--from WASPS to Asians to Jews. I fear there are far too many people in this country who similarly mis-read any nuanced discussion of the many complex issues the country faces, including immigration.
3
To say that Adrienne Shelly was killed by an "undocumented immigrant" rather than an "illegal immigrant" implies that these are two different things, when in fact they are simply two different terms use to describe the same people.
"Illegal immigrant" is the term used by those who emphasize the illegality of their presence in America, and want to see them deported, while "undocumented immigrant" is used by those who emphasize their humanity, and want to help them get away with breaking American immigration laws. It's really as simple as that! I am among those who believe that our immigration laws must be enforced as strictly as possible, because there are literally *billions* of poor people around the world who could improve their circumstances by coming to the United States illegally, and we risk being overwhelmed. Mr. Ostroy is apparently among those who believe it should be made clear to those billions that coming to America illegally is a grand idea, that if they keep their noses clean they will be free from fear of deportation, and that they can eventually expect to win the citizenship jackpot.
In this he has powerful friends; in particular the Times, which in recent years has become a fanatical advocate of the position that impoverished foreigners have the right to break American immigration laws if doing so is to their advantage. Hence the presence of this essay in this paper. And again, it's really as simple as that.
"Illegal immigrant" is the term used by those who emphasize the illegality of their presence in America, and want to see them deported, while "undocumented immigrant" is used by those who emphasize their humanity, and want to help them get away with breaking American immigration laws. It's really as simple as that! I am among those who believe that our immigration laws must be enforced as strictly as possible, because there are literally *billions* of poor people around the world who could improve their circumstances by coming to the United States illegally, and we risk being overwhelmed. Mr. Ostroy is apparently among those who believe it should be made clear to those billions that coming to America illegally is a grand idea, that if they keep their noses clean they will be free from fear of deportation, and that they can eventually expect to win the citizenship jackpot.
In this he has powerful friends; in particular the Times, which in recent years has become a fanatical advocate of the position that impoverished foreigners have the right to break American immigration laws if doing so is to their advantage. Hence the presence of this essay in this paper. And again, it's really as simple as that.
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Bravo, John B. One does not have to be devoid of feelings for the struggles of immigrants - or agree with the Trump spew to still, ask the question: Which laws are we supposed to obey and which laws can we ignore?
I cringe every time I hear the words, "undocumented immigrant."
It's a manipulative way put oneself above the laws the rest of us have to and choose to obey. Illegal is illegal.
I cringe every time I hear the words, "undocumented immigrant."
It's a manipulative way put oneself above the laws the rest of us have to and choose to obey. Illegal is illegal.
10
The problem with illegal immigrants is not that they are criminals.
The problem is that they work too hard for wages that are too low. This prevents unskilled US citizens from getting work. Employers will not consider hiring American high-school dropouts, or even high-school graduates, as long as illegal immigrants are available.
This has created a huge problem with non-employment. Large numbers of young men are idling around, getting into trouble and going to jail.
If illegal immigrants were not available, employers would have to take some of these guys. Wages would go up and working conditions would improve, and the police would have less to do.
The problem is that they work too hard for wages that are too low. This prevents unskilled US citizens from getting work. Employers will not consider hiring American high-school dropouts, or even high-school graduates, as long as illegal immigrants are available.
This has created a huge problem with non-employment. Large numbers of young men are idling around, getting into trouble and going to jail.
If illegal immigrants were not available, employers would have to take some of these guys. Wages would go up and working conditions would improve, and the police would have less to do.
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On the other hand, if these immigrants were treated like legal residents they'd be able to demand full wages thus giving many of the currently unemployed an equal chance to find employment.
2
@Kayleigh73 - I doubt that. Higher wages would make harder-working immigrants relatively more desirable. But if the same number of workers were available, wages would probably not rise.
It is only when there is a shortage of unskilled workers that employers will start looking at the really undesirable US citizens, the ex-cons, the drug addicts, and the guys with a bad attitude and chip on their shoulder. Just getting hired at any wage would be a major accomplishment for some of them.
It is only when there is a shortage of unskilled workers that employers will start looking at the really undesirable US citizens, the ex-cons, the drug addicts, and the guys with a bad attitude and chip on their shoulder. Just getting hired at any wage would be a major accomplishment for some of them.
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I agree that there is a problem with illegal immigrants but why is only one side of the problem acknowledged? Why is so little done to prevent employers from hiring them? Yes, the illegal immigrants are breaking the law but aren't the employers doing so as well? Why aren't they being demonized? Is the claim that when they ask for proof of citizenship they do not know that they are being presented forged or someone else's identification? The employers know that they are hiring illegals.
I went to a great deal of trouble to bring my wife to this country legally. Documented.
Sorry, but doing it without the documents is illegal.
She would have been no more a danger to anyone else if I'd just brought her in without the considerable trouble of documents. She would not have transformed into a murderer.
I knew how. My father was a cop, and once proved to me we could have done it by an excursion with us in which she never once showed her passport.
It was our choice to do it legally. It took many months and considerable expense including repeated extra trips by me that cost thousands of dollar each and took weeks out of my professional schedule, an even bigger cost.
I'd like to bring her sister here. We won't do that illegally either. But if we did, it would not turn her into a ravening murderer either.
The current terms of the debate are absurd. Yes, they are here illegally. No, that does not make them dangerous. Yes we need reforms. No, until we do the reforms they are still illegal.
One side demonizes decent people. The other side excuses choices to do something illegal. Both are wrong.
We do need reforms. Family unification is important. People who relied upon lax enforcement and lived well for years, involving many American lives in that reliance, now need to be accommodated -- it is like what we do in real estate law with adverse possession, after enough time, it is too late to come back and enforce rules let slide for too long. That too was a choice.
Sorry, but doing it without the documents is illegal.
She would have been no more a danger to anyone else if I'd just brought her in without the considerable trouble of documents. She would not have transformed into a murderer.
I knew how. My father was a cop, and once proved to me we could have done it by an excursion with us in which she never once showed her passport.
It was our choice to do it legally. It took many months and considerable expense including repeated extra trips by me that cost thousands of dollar each and took weeks out of my professional schedule, an even bigger cost.
I'd like to bring her sister here. We won't do that illegally either. But if we did, it would not turn her into a ravening murderer either.
The current terms of the debate are absurd. Yes, they are here illegally. No, that does not make them dangerous. Yes we need reforms. No, until we do the reforms they are still illegal.
One side demonizes decent people. The other side excuses choices to do something illegal. Both are wrong.
We do need reforms. Family unification is important. People who relied upon lax enforcement and lived well for years, involving many American lives in that reliance, now need to be accommodated -- it is like what we do in real estate law with adverse possession, after enough time, it is too late to come back and enforce rules let slide for too long. That too was a choice.
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Mark, when I was a much younger man, I had a strong desire to live in London.
I didn't pursue it then, however, because I knew that I would be unlikely to get a work permit there (at least until the EU came into existence, and the possibility emerged of leveraging my grandparents Italian citizenship into an EU passport and work permit - but that was much later).
I elected to respect the then current British immigration laws, if only out of a decent respect for the British people's sovereignty.
Now, I didn't know of Mr. Ostroy's existence before publication of this op-ed, but I can only assume that he is seeking to be Michael Dukakis' next running mate.
The current terms of this debate are indeed absurd - and frankly embarrassing.
I didn't pursue it then, however, because I knew that I would be unlikely to get a work permit there (at least until the EU came into existence, and the possibility emerged of leveraging my grandparents Italian citizenship into an EU passport and work permit - but that was much later).
I elected to respect the then current British immigration laws, if only out of a decent respect for the British people's sovereignty.
Now, I didn't know of Mr. Ostroy's existence before publication of this op-ed, but I can only assume that he is seeking to be Michael Dukakis' next running mate.
The current terms of this debate are indeed absurd - and frankly embarrassing.
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I think that the author wasn't trying to make a distinction between "illegal" and "undocumented", but was that the man who murdered his wife did so not because he was undocumented OR illegal but because he was depraved.
2
Good for you but irrelevant.
2
I am sorry for your loss. Thank you for your thoughtful essay. Stats show that criminal behavior is actually lower, as you suggest, among immigrants of all stripes than it is in the citizen born population.
You say that millions come to escape religious and ethnic persecution. I agree. That said, many over the life of this nation have also come for economic reasons (e.g., the Irish mid 1800s during the potato famine). I bring this up because there seems to be a tendency among some to denigrate those who come for economic reasons as if poverty and threatened starvation are insufficient or invalid reasons to grasp at the American dream.
You say that millions come to escape religious and ethnic persecution. I agree. That said, many over the life of this nation have also come for economic reasons (e.g., the Irish mid 1800s during the potato famine). I bring this up because there seems to be a tendency among some to denigrate those who come for economic reasons as if poverty and threatened starvation are insufficient or invalid reasons to grasp at the American dream.
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It is not our responsibility to alleviate poverty in Latin America. That is the responsibility of Latinos and their leaders.
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The incidence of illegal behavior among illegal immigrants is 100%.
14
My neighbor spent 10 years after getting approval to enter this country from South Africa to become a citizen. It cost thousands of dollars and uncounted hours of her and her husband's time. They too were broke and came here to escape persecution. Just yesterday she brought up this glaring discrepancy in the way her quest was achieved and the way the illegals is working out.
The Irish didn't sneak into this country. They were detained at Ellis Island and vetted for their ability to work and not become public charges. The same with my Sicilian Great Grand parents in 1900.
Open borders will destroy this country as we will no longer be able to control who enters and what their motives are. Do we really need more MS-13 members in Brentwood Long Island?
The Irish didn't sneak into this country. They were detained at Ellis Island and vetted for their ability to work and not become public charges. The same with my Sicilian Great Grand parents in 1900.
Open borders will destroy this country as we will no longer be able to control who enters and what their motives are. Do we really need more MS-13 members in Brentwood Long Island?
9
It appears that Mr. Ostroy’s wife’s killer WAS an illegal immigrant. My heartfelt condolences to him and his family, but the term “illegal immigrant” is a descriptive one, and a precisely accurate one. The terms “undocumented worker” or “undocumented immigrant” lend a politically correct newspeak-patina of legitimacy to a patently illegitimate status. They also support the notion of open borders, which represents a conviction that an osmotic process is desirable whereby the most impoverished have a right to cross borders at will in search of an economic sufficiency that their own failed societies cannot provide them.
Since those societies are such evident failures, why should we allow our own culture to be attenuated by unassimilable numbers with convictions that created and perpetuated such failures?
Like every other nation on Earth, we have a lawful process for accepting immigrants, and it requires documentation, among other things. Those who cross borders having violated that lawful process are not “undocumented immigrants” but illegal aliens.
The extent of political correctness we have allowed to develop that challenges simple common sense is absurd.
We have enough depraved killers among our own not to need to import others, and illegal ones at that, even if they represent no more a concentration among their own as ours do in the U.S. population. If that young illegal had been prevented from entering the U.S., Mr. Ostroy’s wife would not have been murdered by him.
Since those societies are such evident failures, why should we allow our own culture to be attenuated by unassimilable numbers with convictions that created and perpetuated such failures?
Like every other nation on Earth, we have a lawful process for accepting immigrants, and it requires documentation, among other things. Those who cross borders having violated that lawful process are not “undocumented immigrants” but illegal aliens.
The extent of political correctness we have allowed to develop that challenges simple common sense is absurd.
We have enough depraved killers among our own not to need to import others, and illegal ones at that, even if they represent no more a concentration among their own as ours do in the U.S. population. If that young illegal had been prevented from entering the U.S., Mr. Ostroy’s wife would not have been murdered by him.
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@Luettgen - and, if the child of an immigrant had not been born or his parents not allowed to immigrate (legally) his bombing would not have been committed; and if a citizen (Timothy McVey) had not been born or his ancestors had not been allowed to emigrate, his crime would not have been committed. So, yeah, that is true of all crime. That said, immigrants (legal or not) commit fewer crimes than do those born here...
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Anne-Marie:
Whyever should we tolerate ANY crime from illegals who have no business being here in the first place? Additionally, a lot of those illegals are involved in the drug trade and are used like barnyard animals by the cartels. Finally, your claim that “immigrants” commit fewer crimes includes ALL immigrants, including the ones who enter legally and who have been vetted – not too surprising that the percentages are skewed.
Whyever should we tolerate ANY crime from illegals who have no business being here in the first place? Additionally, a lot of those illegals are involved in the drug trade and are used like barnyard animals by the cartels. Finally, your claim that “immigrants” commit fewer crimes includes ALL immigrants, including the ones who enter legally and who have been vetted – not too surprising that the percentages are skewed.
32
"immigrants (legal or not) commit fewer crimes than do those born here"
Respectfully, Anne-Marie - this is a variation on an oft-parroted and very selective view of crime statistics. Saying illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than those born here entails an unspoken, but huge, sleight of hand in ignoring the fact that they came here illegally. So, ignore the fact that each of them is breaking a law, but then fewer crimes are committed. Not a tenable position.
Mr. Ostroy's loss notwithstanding, and further notwithstanding Mr. Trump's absurd and unserious appropriation of the issue, it is still a fair point for people who are citizens of this country to have and enforce hard standards for who is here with us. There are more than enough people who go through a years-long, painstaking process of paperwork to emigrate here. They are invested further in learning the language, adopting customs, and integrating into the society.
It's been dangerously ignorant over the past few decades for us to have excused tens of millions from these rigors just because we're scared to look impolite in our own house.
Respectfully, Anne-Marie - this is a variation on an oft-parroted and very selective view of crime statistics. Saying illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than those born here entails an unspoken, but huge, sleight of hand in ignoring the fact that they came here illegally. So, ignore the fact that each of them is breaking a law, but then fewer crimes are committed. Not a tenable position.
Mr. Ostroy's loss notwithstanding, and further notwithstanding Mr. Trump's absurd and unserious appropriation of the issue, it is still a fair point for people who are citizens of this country to have and enforce hard standards for who is here with us. There are more than enough people who go through a years-long, painstaking process of paperwork to emigrate here. They are invested further in learning the language, adopting customs, and integrating into the society.
It's been dangerously ignorant over the past few decades for us to have excused tens of millions from these rigors just because we're scared to look impolite in our own house.
19
I suppose that the lady murdered was trying to do a good deed by employing a 19 year old [foreign] construction worker; unfortunately, she was murdered. That's how a lot of good deeds turn out; nevertheless, few people are willing to be instructed by such events.
37
"That's how a lot of good deeds turn out"? Wow. That is certainly not my experience, nor that of the vast majority of humanity. I feel so sorry for you having to lead such a cynical life so devoid of the joy one commonly receives from "good deeds."
27
Really? A lot of good deeds end in murder?? Oddly, I haven't found that to be the case in my life...
31
Adriane Shelly did not employ her murderer. He was a construction worker in the building her office was located in. It was an aberration. She was talented and had so much to contribute. However, the murderers immigration status as Mr Ostroy points out had nothing to do with the cause and effect of the brutal crime.
Nothing to gain by vilifying all undocumented individuals with a broad brush. Evil is in that particular murderer.
Nothing to gain by vilifying all undocumented individuals with a broad brush. Evil is in that particular murderer.
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I admire your generosity in the face of such loss. In the aftermath of such a brutal crime, there is little to do but hope for some opportunity for this man's salvation from his demons for nothing will bring your wife back and a vengeful heart will only compromise your life and that of your family. I don't know whether I would have accepted the same "plea deal", but I know that a life sentence or 25 years will probably make little difference if you have forgiven him. I guess you and he will only know on his day of release if you are afforded a glimpse of his changed heart: small consolation but about all one can expect.
I don't know if you are a man who espouses faith in what Times readers call "the supernatural", but that may be a source for some comfort. More so, certainly, than thinking about your dear wife as only a lost collection of cells without a soul or a permanent presence wherever she might be now.
While I appreciate your weighing in on the percentages of how many murders are caused by citizens and illegals, the fact remains that your very unfortunate circumstances can not be extricated from the fact that he may never have been here to commit this murder. You have extracted some additional cost from him by publishing his name in the nation's leading newspaper, something that will await his release in this internet age. And, even if you have moved the debate away from his immigration status, he was here illegally; and everyone will know that in two decades.
I don't know if you are a man who espouses faith in what Times readers call "the supernatural", but that may be a source for some comfort. More so, certainly, than thinking about your dear wife as only a lost collection of cells without a soul or a permanent presence wherever she might be now.
While I appreciate your weighing in on the percentages of how many murders are caused by citizens and illegals, the fact remains that your very unfortunate circumstances can not be extricated from the fact that he may never have been here to commit this murder. You have extracted some additional cost from him by publishing his name in the nation's leading newspaper, something that will await his release in this internet age. And, even if you have moved the debate away from his immigration status, he was here illegally; and everyone will know that in two decades.
29
Who cares about the murderers salvation?
4
Your courage is bracing. The simple truth is that we have created this economy that depends on undocumented workers. We exploit them for cheap labor, them blame them for taking the jobs. We should treat people as individuals, not as examples to buttress our ideologies, not as scapegoats to relieve our frustration.
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Mr. Ostroy, your courage to write this piece while you grieve your loss is striking. You honor your wife's memory by doing so.
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Unless the Democrats (I am one) start to distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants, we will continue to muddy the waters on this issue.
I keep asking: what part of illegal don't people understand? Saying that those who are against illegal immigration are anti-immigrant is like saying that atheists have no sense of morality. Non sequitur - It doesn't follow.
And yes, Andy, I am sorry for your loss.
Chevy
South Hadley, MA
I keep asking: what part of illegal don't people understand? Saying that those who are against illegal immigration are anti-immigrant is like saying that atheists have no sense of morality. Non sequitur - It doesn't follow.
And yes, Andy, I am sorry for your loss.
Chevy
South Hadley, MA
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@Chevy:
Well said. I completely agree.
Well said. I completely agree.
16
Yeah, just enforce the laws! Although I can’t take that entirely seriously. The town where I work and the nearest metropolis both voted to outlaw red light cameras. And I’d be willing to bet that a lot of the same people who voted out red light cameras are also the ones most rabidly opposed to “amnesty” for the undocumented. On rare occasions, such people do commit heinois crimes. and I admire Mr. Ostroy for his clear-eyed view of the overall situation. As for me, I’m much more afraid of getting killed by someone running a red light than by an illegal immigrant--that is unless he’s running a red light.
2
I'm sorry for your loss, Sir, but for this animal being here illegally your wife would be alive.
That's why Trump resonates. The obvious logic of his sometimes bombastic rhetoric is real. When we refuse to follow the law, we all suffer
That's why Trump resonates. The obvious logic of his sometimes bombastic rhetoric is real. When we refuse to follow the law, we all suffer
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"That's why Trump resonates" -- exactly as the author says: "Given the anger and grief I still feel, I could easily be seduced by Donald J. Trump’s anti-immigrant rhetoric that is the cornerstone of his presidential run."
I respect Mr Ostroy for not giving up his rationality and not being seduced by Trump's wild rhetoric and crazy, made-up statistics.
I respect Mr Ostroy for not giving up his rationality and not being seduced by Trump's wild rhetoric and crazy, made-up statistics.
18
When something bad happens, imagining "what if" is inevitable. It's also futile.
If you substitute car accident with resulting bodily harm for murder, it may be easier to see that the immigration status of the driver, even if that driver was culpable in some way, had little to do with the event.
Given that relatively few undocumented immigrants commit crimes it's even more obvious. People commit crimes for many reasons.Usually immigration status is not high on the list of what contributed to the crime.
I'm in favor of immigration reform, but Donald Trump is playing on emotions when it comes to what's illegal. He also maligns legal immigrants as well. It's called scapegoating and it has a venerable history.
Analysts say that immigration has positive effects on our nation. Like free trade, there are also some negative effects. We need a lot more rationality to create balance. Appeals to prejudice won't get us where we need to be. Neither will appeals to raw emotion.
If you substitute car accident with resulting bodily harm for murder, it may be easier to see that the immigration status of the driver, even if that driver was culpable in some way, had little to do with the event.
Given that relatively few undocumented immigrants commit crimes it's even more obvious. People commit crimes for many reasons.Usually immigration status is not high on the list of what contributed to the crime.
I'm in favor of immigration reform, but Donald Trump is playing on emotions when it comes to what's illegal. He also maligns legal immigrants as well. It's called scapegoating and it has a venerable history.
Analysts say that immigration has positive effects on our nation. Like free trade, there are also some negative effects. We need a lot more rationality to create balance. Appeals to prejudice won't get us where we need to be. Neither will appeals to raw emotion.
2
With every murder, there is a but-for. What's magical about this one? But for Nancy Lanza's weird assumption that gun ownership would somehow nudge Adam toward responsibility, 20 six-year-olds would be alive and going about their business. Should we now slam all gun owners?
1
There are 7 billion people in this world less the 320 million who live in the USA. No one ever seems to talk about the numbers so if Mr Ostroy wants to allow in anyone who wants to be here; how many is enough? how many is too much?
Many of these billions of people are poor with little or no skills who will take generations to make it in the USA while using services; we could be giving our own struggling citizens. Citizens struggling under the millions of immigrants we already allow in (1 million plus per year since 1990 are new green card holders and another 1 million are here on temp work permits) while not creating enough jobs for our own citizens. Millions of people who dont know English and who cant be bothered to learn too unlike generations of prior immigrants. MIllions of people who are given billions of dollars worth of handouts when prior generations didnt have it available to them so they had to work to better themselves and they were fine with that.
The numbers say alot The numbers are what we need to look at. For decades until the 1965 immigration act took effect; we took in 250000 new immigrants per year and they assimulated in and became Americans. Now we take in over 2 million per year and they dont while expecting this country to adapt to them.
We need policies that put Americans first and not everyone else.
Many of these billions of people are poor with little or no skills who will take generations to make it in the USA while using services; we could be giving our own struggling citizens. Citizens struggling under the millions of immigrants we already allow in (1 million plus per year since 1990 are new green card holders and another 1 million are here on temp work permits) while not creating enough jobs for our own citizens. Millions of people who dont know English and who cant be bothered to learn too unlike generations of prior immigrants. MIllions of people who are given billions of dollars worth of handouts when prior generations didnt have it available to them so they had to work to better themselves and they were fine with that.
The numbers say alot The numbers are what we need to look at. For decades until the 1965 immigration act took effect; we took in 250000 new immigrants per year and they assimulated in and became Americans. Now we take in over 2 million per year and they dont while expecting this country to adapt to them.
We need policies that put Americans first and not everyone else.
126
You obviously missed quite a bit of what he wrote. He said a pathway to citizenship, not a wide open door.
15
A pathway to citizenship simply encourages more of the same- illegal immigration knowing that it will be made legal in a few years. This cycle needs to be broken.
12
There is a pathway to citizenship. It starts by getting a visa to enter the US through the front door.
86
Contrary to what some commenters are saying, Mr. Ostroy did not defend illegal immigration--he pointed out a fact, that a very small fraction of undocumented immigrants have been convicted of a crime. The reality is that you're far more likely to be killed by your husband than anyone else, immigrant or non-immigrant. It is disingenuous to use crime as the impetus to forward an anti-immigration position.
276
Well wynterstail, actually a very small fraction of undocumented immigrants have been convicted of a Violent crime. They’re all guilty of a crime, being here illegally, and many, maybe most, are guilty of ancillary crimes like forging social security documents.
9
What do you believe that "illegal immigrant" actually means?
13
Thanks for pointing that out. Folks are using this op-ed as a jumping off point to make a statement on illegal immigration in general rather than read the op-ed and see it as a repudiation of the current Trumpism that illegals are murders and rapists.
2
I am truly sorry your loss, Andy. I didn't know Adrienne but I feel a loss by reading your column. But I am also encouraged to see your clear eye view, without giving in to anger or vengeance. It is utterly despicable for the ambulance chasing alt-right to add salt to the wound that will never heal. And I second your even handed approach and your refusal to allow the killer to kill for the second time, namely, your spirit and your compassion. I wish some readers here and the alt-right folks could be more like you. They too can be a better human being
53
Mr Ostroy:
Why do you feel that we are required to keep anyone who comes to the USA though they may not have a right to be here? anyone who may not be able to contribute to the betterment of this country? anyone taking more in services then giving in taxes? anyone who wants a better life to the detriment of our own citizens? accepting more and more immigrants who dont assimulate / learn English / contribute to this country?
Democrats want voters and Republicans want cheap labour which is why both want "immigration reform". Ordinary US citizens want the rule of law abided by and enforced; new immigrants not being a burden on schools, services, infrastructure, etc; You also forget there are some Democrats who think as some Republicans do and want the same thing as the American people; a secure border; an entry / exit visa so we know who is coming and who never left; so we arent giving birthright citizenship to any baby born here and then forced to accept the parents as new "immigrants"; birth right citizenship also drains ss / medicare / medicaid / etc; no sanctuary city / county / state policies so that illegals when found can be straight away deported; etc.
You want your cake and to eat it too and the NYT is helping you as they are part of the elites who want a globalist society with no borders for anyone; to allow for the free movement of people without regard for the environment, water and land which are finite; etc.
Why do you feel that we are required to keep anyone who comes to the USA though they may not have a right to be here? anyone who may not be able to contribute to the betterment of this country? anyone taking more in services then giving in taxes? anyone who wants a better life to the detriment of our own citizens? accepting more and more immigrants who dont assimulate / learn English / contribute to this country?
Democrats want voters and Republicans want cheap labour which is why both want "immigration reform". Ordinary US citizens want the rule of law abided by and enforced; new immigrants not being a burden on schools, services, infrastructure, etc; You also forget there are some Democrats who think as some Republicans do and want the same thing as the American people; a secure border; an entry / exit visa so we know who is coming and who never left; so we arent giving birthright citizenship to any baby born here and then forced to accept the parents as new "immigrants"; birth right citizenship also drains ss / medicare / medicaid / etc; no sanctuary city / county / state policies so that illegals when found can be straight away deported; etc.
You want your cake and to eat it too and the NYT is helping you as they are part of the elites who want a globalist society with no borders for anyone; to allow for the free movement of people without regard for the environment, water and land which are finite; etc.
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"Democrats want voters and Republicans want cheap labour which is why both want "immigration reform".
Not really. I think we want labor that can provide a diversity of attributes - engineers who might stay here after education instead of taking it home; unskilled labor who have a drive to become skilled, etc.
And we allow lots of people to come visit (through our open(?) borders) and who then decide to stay, illegally. Walls don't help that; an implanted chip to find them might work better....
Not really. I think we want labor that can provide a diversity of attributes - engineers who might stay here after education instead of taking it home; unskilled labor who have a drive to become skilled, etc.
And we allow lots of people to come visit (through our open(?) borders) and who then decide to stay, illegally. Walls don't help that; an implanted chip to find them might work better....
12
jmf: If ordinary US citizens really "want the rule of law abided by and enforced," how is it that George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Colin Powell, and Condolezza Rice are not in jail for the deaths not of one but rather ten thousand Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis? How is it that Angelo Mozilo and his fellow banksters who wrecked the economy and destroyed millions of lives are not in jail?
Is it because you as well as these "ordinary U.S. citizens" you invoke are not really interested in punishing the real criminals but rather only interested in afflicting the already afflicted ... so you can feel better about yourselves?
Is it because you as well as these "ordinary U.S. citizens" you invoke are not really interested in punishing the real criminals but rather only interested in afflicting the already afflicted ... so you can feel better about yourselves?
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jmf: why do you blame the poor people who need the jobs, instead of the people who base their budgets on "illegal" off-the-books labor?
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Mr Ostroy thank you so much for using your moral and political capital to voice this much needed opinion. As an outsider watching the US elections with incredulity, I can't believe that your opinion isn't the majority one. You suffered an enormous loss, and your grace in the face of it is a lesson to us all as is your refusal to blame an entire community for the actions of one deluded criminal.
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Andy...at 3AM in Minnesota, I am awake at a time unusual for me at what I call the "Witching Hour"....thinking about "injustices" in daily life. Frankly I am deeply grateful to first see your painful and lucid words sharing your tragic loss of Adrienne. Part of my own dominating thoughts have been
seized by Donald Trump's being an American "Embodiment of chronic Greed". Somehow....you have been able to bring a special Grace to a graceless personal experience. I am a long-retired Lutheran pastor and Marriage and Family Counselor. We are blessed with the presence of a 2 year old Great Granddaughter ( I think of your little girl)... and have moved
to be close and useful to our beautiful Daughter who, at 50, was diagnosed with Early Onset Alzheimer's. We live, I believe, in a broken world, not helped by many who Use presence and power to simply control and dominate others. I have no great wisdom to give, but only wish to Thank
you for sharing your words and feelings so clearly and deeply. (If I say I share in your Pain and hold you in my prayers, I do so, knowing, in this time....even those words bring cynicism and sarcasm. I say this, not out of "preaching" or "control", but in a sensitive love and caring. Andy, having
had a publishing company, I also hope you are continuing to Write. You will bring a great deal to the rest of us with your cogent words. My Thanks for
your Graceful piece today.
seized by Donald Trump's being an American "Embodiment of chronic Greed". Somehow....you have been able to bring a special Grace to a graceless personal experience. I am a long-retired Lutheran pastor and Marriage and Family Counselor. We are blessed with the presence of a 2 year old Great Granddaughter ( I think of your little girl)... and have moved
to be close and useful to our beautiful Daughter who, at 50, was diagnosed with Early Onset Alzheimer's. We live, I believe, in a broken world, not helped by many who Use presence and power to simply control and dominate others. I have no great wisdom to give, but only wish to Thank
you for sharing your words and feelings so clearly and deeply. (If I say I share in your Pain and hold you in my prayers, I do so, knowing, in this time....even those words bring cynicism and sarcasm. I say this, not out of "preaching" or "control", but in a sensitive love and caring. Andy, having
had a publishing company, I also hope you are continuing to Write. You will bring a great deal to the rest of us with your cogent words. My Thanks for
your Graceful piece today.
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Mr Ostroy:
You too are missing the point here. People are not being demeanized because they were not born here but because they are people who have no right to be here but for a certain group of elites who want open borders; who dont want limits placed on the number of new immigrants we allow in; who dont want illegals removed when found; who dont feel the American people have a right to feel safe; etc.
You also forget we had one amnesty in 1986 and we were promised a secured border and we ended up with more illegals who the elites want to give amnesty too; before even bothering to secure the border. Every plan the elites come up with including those in Congress provide amnesty to illegals and make vague promises down the road; we are going to secure the border.
We already have a deportation force and they are called ICE. The problem is their hands are tied due to policies of the President we have now and a Congress who wont force the Presidents hand to see that the laws on the books are actually abided by and enforced. ICE doesnt separate families per se. There is nothing to stop the family from also returning home.
We have 43.5 million US citizens and legal immigrants on food stamps. This is down from 47 million. We are providing billions of dollars worth of services to illegals every year when we could be helping out own citizens. How does that make sense with so many people who have the right to be here struggling?
You too are missing the point here. People are not being demeanized because they were not born here but because they are people who have no right to be here but for a certain group of elites who want open borders; who dont want limits placed on the number of new immigrants we allow in; who dont want illegals removed when found; who dont feel the American people have a right to feel safe; etc.
You also forget we had one amnesty in 1986 and we were promised a secured border and we ended up with more illegals who the elites want to give amnesty too; before even bothering to secure the border. Every plan the elites come up with including those in Congress provide amnesty to illegals and make vague promises down the road; we are going to secure the border.
We already have a deportation force and they are called ICE. The problem is their hands are tied due to policies of the President we have now and a Congress who wont force the Presidents hand to see that the laws on the books are actually abided by and enforced. ICE doesnt separate families per se. There is nothing to stop the family from also returning home.
We have 43.5 million US citizens and legal immigrants on food stamps. This is down from 47 million. We are providing billions of dollars worth of services to illegals every year when we could be helping out own citizens. How does that make sense with so many people who have the right to be here struggling?
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"The problem is their hands [deportation forces] are tied due to policies of the President we have now..."
For nearly eight years we have heard that President Obama has deported more undocumented immigrants than any president before him. Where were you? And why do you have your fingers in your ears?
For nearly eight years we have heard that President Obama has deported more undocumented immigrants than any president before him. Where were you? And why do you have your fingers in your ears?
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Those figures are false. The Obama administration changed the definition of "deportation" to include those detained at the border and refused entry. These were never really in the country. If you check the statistics, you would see that there has been no real change in deportations.
14
There are about 11 million illegals in this country. That's about 3% of the population. Their hard work makes up 5% of our GDP.
So as for 'providing billions' in services.. it is the illegals that are doing the providing and our own citizens who reap the rewards.
So as for 'providing billions' in services.. it is the illegals that are doing the providing and our own citizens who reap the rewards.
12
a very generous and insightful essay. Mr. Ostroy rises above the temptation to blame for the murder of his wife a class of people who are in some quarters demonized for their illegal presence in America. Yes, they are here illegally, but they are not more prone to violent crimes than those of us born in America or who legally immmigrated here. What Trump does is dispicable, using individual examples of crimes to characterize an entire class of people, when truthfully, white males with no college education i.e. his core supporters are more likely to commit violent crimes.
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Mr Ostroy, no one who reads this can fail to be moved by your loss and your compassion.
But not welcoming those here illegally with open arms is not the same as being "anti-immigrant. " if you believe we should welcome everyone who is here, legally or not, that is your right. But it is not your right to invent a misleading label and apply it to everyone who disagrees with you.
But not welcoming those here illegally with open arms is not the same as being "anti-immigrant. " if you believe we should welcome everyone who is here, legally or not, that is your right. But it is not your right to invent a misleading label and apply it to everyone who disagrees with you.
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Xenophobic malevolance is most of the times a raw expression of the insecure sentiment, of ordinary people that,unlike the honorable writer of this article usually have no real personal or tangible reason to hate foreigners, but prefer to build their life on instinctive fear rather than on careful thought and hard evidence. Real humanity begins when reasoning and search of truth trumps fear and instinct. The real criminals are those who understand that and play on this fear to fuel a political agenda.
29
Careful thought and hard evidence.
The evidence is clear: there are not enough resources, in any country, to help everyone.
And there are too many people.
The evidence is clear: there are not enough resources, in any country, to help everyone.
And there are too many people.
8
I am sorry for your loss - our loss; I remember the news story about her death, her appearance on Law & Order, and the subsequent Law & Order episode based on her murder.
However, your wife died because her killer was an illegal immigrant who had motive: Feared being deported because he was an illegal immigrant.
If he was not an illegal immigrant, then he would not have fear of deportation and, thus, would have no motive to murder your wife - she would still be alive and you would not be writing this essay.
Sadly, the logic is simple, clear, and ruthless - like your wife's illegal immigrant killer.
However, your wife died because her killer was an illegal immigrant who had motive: Feared being deported because he was an illegal immigrant.
If he was not an illegal immigrant, then he would not have fear of deportation and, thus, would have no motive to murder your wife - she would still be alive and you would not be writing this essay.
Sadly, the logic is simple, clear, and ruthless - like your wife's illegal immigrant killer.
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Or perhaps the real culprit is the vengeful, heartless deportation machine our faithful Republican Right has created rather than address the true offenders, wealthy Americans and corporations who would prefer to pay 'illegal immigrants' than pay a decent wage to an American citizen. Even when that means breaking the law.
But then you immigration hawks always did know an easy target when you saw one.
But then you immigration hawks always did know an easy target when you saw one.
7
John S.:
1. I am a Liberal and already voted for Hillary. So don't be a naïve and assume that I am "immigration hawk" or a Republican. Such naïveté and illogic is suitable for Trump voters; please don't give the Right any justification for their belief in "stupid Liberal" thinking.
2. I used pure logic showing that this killer, who is an illegal immigrant, killed because he was an illegal immigrant. If you understand logic, I did not go on to generalize that all illegal immigrants are killers, but, unlike legal immigrants, this killer showed the unique motive to kill that only illegal immigrants or other deportable people may have: the threat of deportation.
3. I wrote what I did because the author is trying to mitigate his killer's motives and implore us to not generalize to other illegals. I am fine with not generalizing as I state above, but this killer is a killer - in his sane mind, he chose to commit evil for personal gain - that gain being his attempt to not be deported because he was an illegal immigrant. He would not have this motive if he were not illegal and that needs to be made clear and no one should give him any excuses for his act. Believe me when I say that I am a Liberal, so I am empathetic and look for mitigating factors, but, there comes a point when there's bottom line good and evil and this illegal immigrant killer crossed it and no one should apologize or make excuses for him.
1. I am a Liberal and already voted for Hillary. So don't be a naïve and assume that I am "immigration hawk" or a Republican. Such naïveté and illogic is suitable for Trump voters; please don't give the Right any justification for their belief in "stupid Liberal" thinking.
2. I used pure logic showing that this killer, who is an illegal immigrant, killed because he was an illegal immigrant. If you understand logic, I did not go on to generalize that all illegal immigrants are killers, but, unlike legal immigrants, this killer showed the unique motive to kill that only illegal immigrants or other deportable people may have: the threat of deportation.
3. I wrote what I did because the author is trying to mitigate his killer's motives and implore us to not generalize to other illegals. I am fine with not generalizing as I state above, but this killer is a killer - in his sane mind, he chose to commit evil for personal gain - that gain being his attempt to not be deported because he was an illegal immigrant. He would not have this motive if he were not illegal and that needs to be made clear and no one should give him any excuses for his act. Believe me when I say that I am a Liberal, so I am empathetic and look for mitigating factors, but, there comes a point when there's bottom line good and evil and this illegal immigrant killer crossed it and no one should apologize or make excuses for him.
7
@VJR
"If he was not an illegal immigrant, then he would not have fear of deportation and, thus, would have no motive to murder your wife - she would still be alive and you would not be writing this essay."
Which, ultimately, has nothing to do with the content of this essay which argues that immigration policy must include a realistic path to citizenship.
"If he was not an illegal immigrant, then he would not have fear of deportation and, thus, would have no motive to murder your wife - she would still be alive and you would not be writing this essay."
Which, ultimately, has nothing to do with the content of this essay which argues that immigration policy must include a realistic path to citizenship.
2
Thank you for your tremendous courage and compassion in writing these thoughts, from such a heartbreaking and unusual vantage point. I remember your wife's death very well and it was one of those crimes that defies explanation, the work of a madman. It is a testimony to your character that you do not attribute his deranged behavior to his immigration paperwork.
30
Mr. Ostroy, I (and I hope many others) thank you for sharing with us your story of personal grief. For America is sorely in need of the redemption and compassion that you write about today. Still grieving over the loss of your wife and mother of your child, you are the true American here, rejecting the summons to hate, to division, to dislocation, to social savagery, to the pull of political demagogues who would use your terrible story in the service of their selfish purposes.
We have become, unhappily, a country that when confronted with the decisions necessary to make positive changes, retreats into the comfort of silence or of silent aggression, particularly as it pertains to those who swell our population from the globe's restless places.
The fact is that President Obama wished to deal with a bad situation but was prevented from doing so by the alt-right in Congress--for that is precisely what the Tea Party and Freedom Caucus in Washington are. Rather than work with a president they dislike because he isn't their idea of who an American president should be, they work tirelessly to divide Americans along racial, cultural, linguistic, and social lines. We here, you there.
Your Adrienne may still be with you if selfish lawmakers, caught in the deadly vise of ideology, had been true Americans--fixing a problem while not demonizing those who ostensibly are the problem. Donald Trump is the result of these lawmakers.
Adrienne's killer was more than just one simple man.
We have become, unhappily, a country that when confronted with the decisions necessary to make positive changes, retreats into the comfort of silence or of silent aggression, particularly as it pertains to those who swell our population from the globe's restless places.
The fact is that President Obama wished to deal with a bad situation but was prevented from doing so by the alt-right in Congress--for that is precisely what the Tea Party and Freedom Caucus in Washington are. Rather than work with a president they dislike because he isn't their idea of who an American president should be, they work tirelessly to divide Americans along racial, cultural, linguistic, and social lines. We here, you there.
Your Adrienne may still be with you if selfish lawmakers, caught in the deadly vise of ideology, had been true Americans--fixing a problem while not demonizing those who ostensibly are the problem. Donald Trump is the result of these lawmakers.
Adrienne's killer was more than just one simple man.
38
Somewhat aside from the point, and with all due respect:
25 years with no possibility of parole is a very severe sentence. Condign, one might say, but it is very severe. It was indeed a depraved act, a despicable act, but he is now ruined, fully ruined. A man who leaves prison at age 44, having spent the better part of his life in a cage, living only among other men in cages, fighting off a constant threat of intimidation, violence and humiliation, day in day out, seems to me harsh enough for any human being, with the exception of ever greater crimes such as war crimes. But war crimes commonly go unpunished.
Rest assured, sir, that this man will have ben punished fully. He will know no joy, no pleasure, no relief. Let us not think there is much more that is worse or needs to be.
25 years with no possibility of parole is a very severe sentence. Condign, one might say, but it is very severe. It was indeed a depraved act, a despicable act, but he is now ruined, fully ruined. A man who leaves prison at age 44, having spent the better part of his life in a cage, living only among other men in cages, fighting off a constant threat of intimidation, violence and humiliation, day in day out, seems to me harsh enough for any human being, with the exception of ever greater crimes such as war crimes. But war crimes commonly go unpunished.
Rest assured, sir, that this man will have ben punished fully. He will know no joy, no pleasure, no relief. Let us not think there is much more that is worse or needs to be.
18
You have no idea what kind of life this killer is living in prison. For all you know he may have muscled his way to the top of the pack and become an alpha-dog, where life in prison is far from what you depict. He certainly has the hair trigger temper and predeliction to violence required of prison bosses.
5
But for the Ecuadorian construction worker's illegal - yes he is here illegally - presence in the country, your wife would be alive. The rest of us shouldn't have to assume such risks. The border here in the west is porous - this killer can and likely will return to the US after deportation to commit further crimes, and it is not for you determine that it's acceptable for him to evade our laws.
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Wow, harsh.
Where in Mr. Ostroy's comments does it say "it's acceptable for [his wife's killer] to evade our laws"??
The entire point of his speaking out, which you seem to have missed, is that not all illegal immigrants are murderers and that painting all of them with that brush is not the solution to serious immigration problems.
Your comment, which displays an alarming lack of compassion and respect for a man discussing a personal, painful situation, is evidence to me of just how much Trump's fallacious portrayal of immigrants has poisoned the debate.
Where in Mr. Ostroy's comments does it say "it's acceptable for [his wife's killer] to evade our laws"??
The entire point of his speaking out, which you seem to have missed, is that not all illegal immigrants are murderers and that painting all of them with that brush is not the solution to serious immigration problems.
Your comment, which displays an alarming lack of compassion and respect for a man discussing a personal, painful situation, is evidence to me of just how much Trump's fallacious portrayal of immigrants has poisoned the debate.
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SW has a point. All countries have citizens who are not right in the head and who commit crimes. This guy is not our citizen so why was he here? because someone allowed him to be here after he walked over a legal border and or overstayed a legal visa. Someone gave him incentives to stay like a job; drivers license; etc.
Our border is not only porous with regards to people coming in but we are giving asylum to anyone who asked for it while not being entitled to it and in the meantime; they are getting work permits; etc and costing the country alot in the term of services.
SW is right as criminal illegals are being caught / not caught at the border all the time. If they arent caught; they commit more crimes.
SW is right that there are tens of thousands of people who have committed crimes and whom their own countries wont take them back and who also commit more crimes. THere are currently 250000 illegals in that category and almost a 1 million with outstanding orders of removal. The President under existing law is allowed to withhold visas from these countries but has only chosen to do so with 1 country (Gambia) allowing all the others to commit more crimes.
HOw is it compassionate to allow other families to suffer the same fates as this man when the illegal could and should be removed back to his own country and the border permanently secured so he doesnt come back?
NO amnesty. NO work permits. NO nothing but deportation.
Vote Trump for your job and country.
Our border is not only porous with regards to people coming in but we are giving asylum to anyone who asked for it while not being entitled to it and in the meantime; they are getting work permits; etc and costing the country alot in the term of services.
SW is right as criminal illegals are being caught / not caught at the border all the time. If they arent caught; they commit more crimes.
SW is right that there are tens of thousands of people who have committed crimes and whom their own countries wont take them back and who also commit more crimes. THere are currently 250000 illegals in that category and almost a 1 million with outstanding orders of removal. The President under existing law is allowed to withhold visas from these countries but has only chosen to do so with 1 country (Gambia) allowing all the others to commit more crimes.
HOw is it compassionate to allow other families to suffer the same fates as this man when the illegal could and should be removed back to his own country and the border permanently secured so he doesnt come back?
NO amnesty. NO work permits. NO nothing but deportation.
Vote Trump for your job and country.
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@HeyNorris
Trump is a "shock doctor", and he is utterly offensive. What his incendiary words do is focus the nation on a problem that neither side seems willing to solve. Nobody believes that ALL immigrants are evil murderers. Nobody believes that ALL Muslims are terrorists. But the Left and the Right have kicked all of these cans down the road for too long, and Trump has enough knowledge of the media, and an utter lack of scruples, to turn loose an effective means of getting the debate heard urgently.
This immigration problem was being debated in the first Bush and Reagan debate. Go back and watch it. That is how the debate looked to the country before basically ignoring it for thirty years. Now we are all so complicit in its current state we have stopped thinking rationally. On both sides.
Trump is a "shock doctor", and he is utterly offensive. What his incendiary words do is focus the nation on a problem that neither side seems willing to solve. Nobody believes that ALL immigrants are evil murderers. Nobody believes that ALL Muslims are terrorists. But the Left and the Right have kicked all of these cans down the road for too long, and Trump has enough knowledge of the media, and an utter lack of scruples, to turn loose an effective means of getting the debate heard urgently.
This immigration problem was being debated in the first Bush and Reagan debate. Go back and watch it. That is how the debate looked to the country before basically ignoring it for thirty years. Now we are all so complicit in its current state we have stopped thinking rationally. On both sides.
32