Since the advent of "preventative"/"broken windows" policing, homicide closure rates have fallen from upwards of 90% in the 60s to 60% now. Moreover, the rate at which black homicides go unsolved is almost twice the rate at which white homicides go unsolved. With such a low closure rate, a surprisingly small number of individuals can be responsible for a large part of the homicide rate - and this fact helps them intimidate witnesses and therefore murder more.
Proportionality was meant to incentivize a civil commons. When the expectation value of punishment doesn't scale with the severity of the crime, this is what happens.
Broken windows was always wrong and stupid. Always.
Proportionality was meant to incentivize a civil commons. When the expectation value of punishment doesn't scale with the severity of the crime, this is what happens.
Broken windows was always wrong and stupid. Always.
2
What a total con that NY is safe and getting safer. When no one will talk that means they have NO faith in the courts, correction, or police to protect them if they speak. In fact, it sometime means the killer has copper protection or better. Stop all the lying about what is really going on.
4
There should be no monetary reward needed.
Anyone who is civilized and lives in a normal society would do what ever is need to stop this.
For Liberals to complain about police trying to do a very difficult job is a joke.
The problem is the people who have no values or beliefs or decency.
When will people stand up and be counted and demand that people do the right thing & stop committing crimes.
Stop making excuses !!
Anyone who is civilized and lives in a normal society would do what ever is need to stop this.
For Liberals to complain about police trying to do a very difficult job is a joke.
The problem is the people who have no values or beliefs or decency.
When will people stand up and be counted and demand that people do the right thing & stop committing crimes.
Stop making excuses !!
13
Living in continuous danger. Living in continuous fear. Living in continuous worry means that such people are continuously paralyzed; no longer able to fend for themselves.
Who should speak for them? Who' should defend them? and, the answer, is, nobody. Not that these peple are unworthy, just that they are...unlucky; unlucky to live as they do, unlucky to believe as they do; unlucky to hide themselves from the realities of their lives from themselves, and, to succumb to the reality of their own making: violence, uncertainty, and death.
Do Black Live Matter? only in the context of which black lives one is talking about. Many are not.
Who should speak for them? Who' should defend them? and, the answer, is, nobody. Not that these peple are unworthy, just that they are...unlucky; unlucky to live as they do, unlucky to believe as they do; unlucky to hide themselves from the realities of their lives from themselves, and, to succumb to the reality of their own making: violence, uncertainty, and death.
Do Black Live Matter? only in the context of which black lives one is talking about. Many are not.
4
I lived in a housing project for 7 years growing up in the 50s and 60s in CT. We had no crime. We had no security guards and no police presence. People were poor but most had jobs. Kids played outside and walked to public school where they got a very good education. There was no fear. Most of the inhabitants were white/Causasian, but there were some other ethnic groups. A few families were on welfare, but most were not.
Why would this have been so different than what we see now? I can't say. I do know that the people who lived in the projects had a decent sense of themselves and that they were surrounded by a working class, stabile neighborhood, a safe town, and a decent government structure. It is possible for working poor and unemployed poor to have a decent life but much depends on the rest of the environment around them.
These same projects still exist. People still live in them. My guess is that the situation is still the same as it was 50 years ago. Maybe NYC should go to CT and study what's there.
This story is very sad but it will be repeated again somewhere in the not so distant future because the context in which it took place hasn't and won't change until there is a general, wide-spread desire for that change. That is what is missing.
Why would this have been so different than what we see now? I can't say. I do know that the people who lived in the projects had a decent sense of themselves and that they were surrounded by a working class, stabile neighborhood, a safe town, and a decent government structure. It is possible for working poor and unemployed poor to have a decent life but much depends on the rest of the environment around them.
These same projects still exist. People still live in them. My guess is that the situation is still the same as it was 50 years ago. Maybe NYC should go to CT and study what's there.
This story is very sad but it will be repeated again somewhere in the not so distant future because the context in which it took place hasn't and won't change until there is a general, wide-spread desire for that change. That is what is missing.
9
For all those admonishing the residents of these projects for not ID'ing the killer...what would you do in that situation? My neighbor has 3 kids with her husband. If she was shot on our street and I knew who the shooter was (say it's another neighbor down the street), and knew that if I spoke to the police that I would put my own husband and child at risk then guess what - I won't be talking. Surely I'd cry about it, an innocent person with a family was killed - but will ID'ing the killer bring her back? No it won't. It would just make my family the new target.
That's the simple equation these people are doing. Easy to say "if you don't fix your neighborhood then no one will" from behind your laptop in the 'burbs but the reality is that any rational person will choose preservation of their life over being the "hero" who gets someone locked up for 10 or so years. Someone who still has contacts with accomplices on the outside, just as ready to kill you or your family for snitching.
That's the simple equation these people are doing. Easy to say "if you don't fix your neighborhood then no one will" from behind your laptop in the 'burbs but the reality is that any rational person will choose preservation of their life over being the "hero" who gets someone locked up for 10 or so years. Someone who still has contacts with accomplices on the outside, just as ready to kill you or your family for snitching.
24
This story makes clear the need to seriously consider more routine use of substantial reward payments for information that leads to arrest and conviction especially where cultural and personal safety concerns inhibit providing such information to law enforcement.
7
Is stop and frisk really worse than a mother gunned down in front of her children?
50
Funny in a city where $2500 could easily be a bar tab for a night, the city is offering this for info leading to Ms. White's killer. Where are the politically active celebrities and why can't they cut out bottle service for one night to help out? The neighbors of Ms. White are not going to risk their lives for $2500. If the police can't protect Ms. White, what happens to witnesses? Maybe $25,000 would make the risk/reward equation worth it. When criminals are paying 10k to a hitman, $2500 don't hack it NYC!
21
We tend to have this perception about the murder of innocents that when it happens it's against the natural order of things and somehow there must be a reckoning with the perpetrators determined and made to answer if not in this world, then in the next. If in fact nature just does not care, God will not intervene, and that only humans coming together as a community can make those responsible held accountable, then what can be done to see a just result?
This community is full of poor people, people without the means to move to a safer one, and more people than any affluent community who see no hope and so have little fear of jail or of early death who commit crimes and commit murders without any conscience. There are only a few proportionally who are criminals in such neighborhoods but they live there and they are part of the community. Those who offer to be witnesses in prosecutions must live with the people who suffered because of the prosecution due to legal costs and lost income from the convicted persons, the separation of convicted parents from children, the lost opportunities and rights from felony convictions of those convicted, etc. In other words, the witnesses must live with all the people affected from a person prosecuted and convicted of a crime. The only way for this to change is for the entire community to make a commitment to support those who step forward to bear witness for the prosecution of criminals, even if they must suffer individually as a result.
This community is full of poor people, people without the means to move to a safer one, and more people than any affluent community who see no hope and so have little fear of jail or of early death who commit crimes and commit murders without any conscience. There are only a few proportionally who are criminals in such neighborhoods but they live there and they are part of the community. Those who offer to be witnesses in prosecutions must live with the people who suffered because of the prosecution due to legal costs and lost income from the convicted persons, the separation of convicted parents from children, the lost opportunities and rights from felony convictions of those convicted, etc. In other words, the witnesses must live with all the people affected from a person prosecuted and convicted of a crime. The only way for this to change is for the entire community to make a commitment to support those who step forward to bear witness for the prosecution of criminals, even if they must suffer individually as a result.
4
If the police went in to clean up the projects that would be an outrage too.
I'm confused by the "Y'all far from the hunch". Where is the hunch?
I'm confused by the "Y'all far from the hunch". Where is the hunch?
11
If people would record their civilian neighbors committing violent crimes, violent crime would plummet. No, they only record when there is a police encounter which logically reduces the incentive for cops to confront violent criminals and the result is an increase in city violence.
18
I'm quite interested in why 'Black Lives Matter' and various other black rights groups do not really talk about this. Is it just that black on black violence (more common by far) is less important than white on black violence? They seem to be going on a weird nonsensical direction by pretty much waging a cold war on the police. And the residents themselves, couldn't they just go to a different precinct than the local one? Just tell them what's going on and if their local precinct needs to actually take the action then the police can carry messages. Risk of true retaliation is quite low in this situation. Now if the police don't help in that regard then it's obvious that something is very wrong and it should make the front page of every news agency in the country. Anyway, the black community, from what I see, gripes a lot about unfair treatment and racism. I'm a Muslim so I get my share of racism, but I actually work to prove those people wrong. The black community, yes even the well off members, just don't do enough as a group to make sure that their communities are safe. They live here, in the United States of America, not Syria. If they wanted to make changes, they could do so with the full backing of the police force who have only been stymied by lack of cooperation. Where are the true leaders of this age? Where are the Malcolm X or Luther king jr or WEB Dubois or sojourner truth. Or Harriet Tubman of our age?
34
How can we show this community that their lives do matter to us? I for one would be willing to give money to increase the reward for a tip. I would like to know what the John Adams Houses community would find useful and would welcome from outsiders like me.
13
This is the stuff Kaepernick should be taking a knee over.
23
The single thing that every shooting has in common, whether NYC or Chicago, is the easy availability of guns.
NYC has the Iron Pipeline from Virginia.
Chicago criminals get their guns outside the city or Indiana.
Gun violence is down in NYC but, like Chicago, where's it's up, it's concentrated in a few poor, drug and gang infested, African-American communities.
It's easy for much of white America to ignore these communities and say the residents are not "taking responsibility" for their lives. It gets them off the hook.
And of course the NRA and GOA won't let politicians (their employees, basically) do anything to reduce acces to guns.
The United States has utterly failed to deal with the scourge of drugs and guns in effective ways. Of course because the opioid epidemic is hitting white communities, we're hearing about it and the government is trying to do something.
NYC has the Iron Pipeline from Virginia.
Chicago criminals get their guns outside the city or Indiana.
Gun violence is down in NYC but, like Chicago, where's it's up, it's concentrated in a few poor, drug and gang infested, African-American communities.
It's easy for much of white America to ignore these communities and say the residents are not "taking responsibility" for their lives. It gets them off the hook.
And of course the NRA and GOA won't let politicians (their employees, basically) do anything to reduce acces to guns.
The United States has utterly failed to deal with the scourge of drugs and guns in effective ways. Of course because the opioid epidemic is hitting white communities, we're hearing about it and the government is trying to do something.
7
As gun are so available in Virginia, why is the murder rate low?
6
Now they bring out all of the detectives.
BUT there should be the SAME response when someone wielding a gun TRIES to shoot someone. After the fact doesn't bring back the lost life.
The detectives seek to bring about JUSTICE, you say—
BUT let's have the same zeal and recruitment of detectives BEFORE the death—when someone wields a gun and tries to shoot someone. Then, you'll have life, not just justice.
BUT there should be the SAME response when someone wielding a gun TRIES to shoot someone. After the fact doesn't bring back the lost life.
The detectives seek to bring about JUSTICE, you say—
BUT let's have the same zeal and recruitment of detectives BEFORE the death—when someone wields a gun and tries to shoot someone. Then, you'll have life, not just justice.
1
Of course, the NY Times had to note high up in the story "... in 2016, with a plunge in crime freeing up police resources", consistent with the liberal mantra. The fact is black on black crimes are continuing, threatening the lives of other blacks. And one reason this crime can't be solved is because witnesses won't talk to the police, so things get worse.
14
How about simply getting very bad people off the playgrounds and streets so they cannot threaten and kill? Or is that too simplistic?
8
Where the crime is, that is where the police resources ought to be.
Detectives with twice the normal case load show the detectives are not distributed correctly.
That is not the same thing as smothering a neighborhood with a heavy handed "police presence." Still even that seems not to be done. In our little town with its small police force, we see the officers all the time. If these people in crime ridden high rises don't see any police, that is maldistribution too.
The tax base is the whole city, backed by the State's obligation. There are no poor neighborhoods which cannot afford their police.
Detectives with twice the normal case load show the detectives are not distributed correctly.
That is not the same thing as smothering a neighborhood with a heavy handed "police presence." Still even that seems not to be done. In our little town with its small police force, we see the officers all the time. If these people in crime ridden high rises don't see any police, that is maldistribution too.
The tax base is the whole city, backed by the State's obligation. There are no poor neighborhoods which cannot afford their police.
12
Now why do you think the neighborhood does not know what happened? Those who are in the illicit drug trade also live in these neighborhoods. The gang code says no snitching. When someone does identify the shooters the drug cartel makes sure that the police informant as well as his or her children are murdered. That is the multinational crime organization's code of conduct.
The NYT previously reported that drug overdoses now exceed auto accidents as the leading cause of accidental death. 47,000 overdose deaths per year. That is 129 overdose deaths per day. When combined with these shooting deaths the illicit drug trade and the related gang turf wars are setting new records for this opioid epidemic. Where is the outrage? Indeed, where the political will?
The NYT previously reported that drug overdoses now exceed auto accidents as the leading cause of accidental death. 47,000 overdose deaths per year. That is 129 overdose deaths per day. When combined with these shooting deaths the illicit drug trade and the related gang turf wars are setting new records for this opioid epidemic. Where is the outrage? Indeed, where the political will?
18
It's hideous that the death of this woman and the devastation of her children's lives takes place under a pall of hypocracy. Where are the headline grabbers now? Why does it take a bullet from a cop to spark outrage? What is it about her life that ignites such resounding silence? Seriously, I'm genuinely mystified because there is no rational reason. Make her life matter, make her children's lives matter or get off the stage.
37
Interesting choice of headline: Made it seem as though the community is to blame for the killer not being caught -- when in fact, as the reporting makes clear, police interest in solving this case was minimal. And, as the reporting made clear, the people in the community have good reason to fear being threatened and targeted by the shooter if they do come forward, with little hope of protection from the police. Could Benjamin Mueller or an editor please explain why that headline was chose? As is evident by the comments, it certainly caused a lot of casual readers to assume the worst about Jessica's White neighbors.
8
You mean Jessica White's neighbors.
3
I'm not really sure what you were reading, the police will was where it was supposed to be. I actually did get from the story that the residents won't help.
13
Did we read the same article? I got the distinct impression that overworked officers were investigating as thoroughly and quickly as they could, despite the tragic uncooperative witnesses that they were able to locate.
12
Four teenager's bodies have been found in an old psychiatric hospital out on Long Island in Suffolk County. They were apparently murdered as a result of gang violence. There's hardly a blip in the news.
Imagine if these teenagers were students at Horace Mann in Riverdale. You know the kind of place where the higher ups at the Times send their kids. The 82nd Airborne would be patrolling the streets and stop and frisk would be stop and shoot.
Imagine if these teenagers were students at Horace Mann in Riverdale. You know the kind of place where the higher ups at the Times send their kids. The 82nd Airborne would be patrolling the streets and stop and frisk would be stop and shoot.
19
war zones in the middle of our cities, that is happening in all over American cities.
I m wondering what the presidential candidates have to say. Probably something like the communities have to get more involved together with law enforcement.
Meanwhile too many young people sit around idle, no jobs, no responsibilities, no education, no skill sets but guns in their pockets and ready to play gangster.
I m wondering what the presidential candidates have to say. Probably something like the communities have to get more involved together with law enforcement.
Meanwhile too many young people sit around idle, no jobs, no responsibilities, no education, no skill sets but guns in their pockets and ready to play gangster.
13
Jessica White is a heroin. She placed her life ahead of her children and died trying to save them. For me, that's the real story. The fact is the residents of the John Adams Houses in the South Bronx are paralyzed with fear from reprisals for "snitching" to the police about who murdered this young, beautiful woman and Mom. Even though $2500 is a lot of money for many folks, it's only a quick fix to a much bigger problem. It's not enough money to relocate to a safe and better neighborhood, but on the other hand, it's a lot of money to have and spend where many folks in that neighborhood are on welfare and would take notice and figure out who talked to the police.
I would not be surprised that many people know who the shooter is yet feel guilty for not coming forward, but are too terrified to do anything. What a tremendous amount of pressure residents of those housing projects live under each and every day.
In the meantime, more innocent people will probably die in the days and months ahead. These are the kinds of issues and problems politicians should be addressing on a daily basis. It's deplorable that residents of the John Adams Housing Projects have to live in such fear every day.
Sad yet equally troubling article. Thank you for sharing it NYT.
11
If you can not protect your self with equivalent counterforce, and the Other/Dark Side knows this, what do you expect?
If somebody talks, they know clearly what will happen.
If somebody talks, they know clearly what will happen.
9
In all seriousness, wealthy people like Colin Kaepernick who have publicly associated themselves with racial justice should offer a handsome reward for information leading to apprehension of Ms. White's killer. I'm a pauper compared to him but I'll give $100. There should be hundreds like me.
If we pool our resources we can solve this. And we should.
If we pool our resources we can solve this. And we should.
57
Our American society must rise above our complacency.
1
This is because drugs are illegal. If it were legalized, people wouldn't be shooting each other for territory. Look at Colorado. Marijuana is in stores, the government collects taxes, innocent people aren't dying from being shot by dealers.
13
The dealers and growers sure have issues with crime...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/08/us/veterans-back-on-patrol-this-time-t...
And pharmacy's have issues with robberies and burglaries with the pill-drug culture in the last 5-10 years.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/08/us/veterans-back-on-patrol-this-time-t...
And pharmacy's have issues with robberies and burglaries with the pill-drug culture in the last 5-10 years.
2
The sad part is that people want to legalize marijuana and profit from it when thousands of Blacks and Latinos have gone to prison due to the Rockefeller Drug Laws for minor offenses. There's a serious double standard in this country. When heroin and crack were decimating lives in Harlem, no one cared. Now that it's the drug of choice for wealthy or suburban youth, it's an epidemic that has be dealt with.
4
Is there any wonder fantasies of vigilante justice are the staples of modern cinema
2
Having grown up not too far from The Adams projects and having survived enough to be a nice, progressive reader of the New York Times I find the easy, trite way in which people treat this tragedy and the serious issues of inequity and injustice, shameful. Not surprising, just shameful.
16
A horrible, terrible tragedy, and an excellent article. But no mention of the inner city "no snitch" culture? Certainly there is lots of blame to be cast around, but it should also be noted that even in dire circumstances, inner city culture is vehemently opposed to helping the police, even when the outcome could be positive.
35
The whole article's point was about how no snitch culture is preventing an arrest in this case.
"Inner city culture is vehemently opposed to helping the police..." You really do not understand the situation.
It's not they do not want to help. These folks want to live life in peace. They want these knuckleheads out of their community. But they get dumped there, or are from there and have no place else to go.
To snitch is to put your own life in danger. So unless you want to cause your own family the expense of burying you and caring for your dependents most folks are going to keep quiet. It's in their best interest.
The article also states that the residents want more police patrols. So at what juncture did you not find that these folks are caught between a rock and a hard place? Unfortunately, many of these residents can't just pick up and move, for a variety of reasons. Lack of resources keep them trapped there.
We take for granted that to live in NYC and have an apt, even in a housing project with lots of crime, is difficult enough to get (the woman who died in this story was in homeless shelters and trying to get her own place). Even with all the violence its better to have a roof over your head than to have children and live in a shelter.
So what do the residents do? Keep their heads down, pray their family is safe, mind their business and keep it moving, hoping that one day the problem elements within the community are permanently removed.
"Inner city culture is vehemently opposed to helping the police..." You really do not understand the situation.
It's not they do not want to help. These folks want to live life in peace. They want these knuckleheads out of their community. But they get dumped there, or are from there and have no place else to go.
To snitch is to put your own life in danger. So unless you want to cause your own family the expense of burying you and caring for your dependents most folks are going to keep quiet. It's in their best interest.
The article also states that the residents want more police patrols. So at what juncture did you not find that these folks are caught between a rock and a hard place? Unfortunately, many of these residents can't just pick up and move, for a variety of reasons. Lack of resources keep them trapped there.
We take for granted that to live in NYC and have an apt, even in a housing project with lots of crime, is difficult enough to get (the woman who died in this story was in homeless shelters and trying to get her own place). Even with all the violence its better to have a roof over your head than to have children and live in a shelter.
So what do the residents do? Keep their heads down, pray their family is safe, mind their business and keep it moving, hoping that one day the problem elements within the community are permanently removed.
9
Wanting more patrols is not the same as actually helping police solve crimes. Police arrive after the fact and if they have to find information without help naturally it will be hard to solve things quickly or at all. What the residents want is the best of both worlds immediately, they could get it but only if they sacrifice just a little bit. If that sacrifice is in lives, then maybe they should think about things this way: would they rather die in an 'accidental' shooting only to perpetuate the control by gangs? Or would they rather take a chance and really try to get rid of the gangs even if they die? They die either way, but let's just say that there is a very good reason why heroes and martyrs are held in such high esteem in pretty much every culture on this planet.
4
From the title of this piece and many of the comments, it seems that many hold the assumption that identifying the shooter to the authorities represents the best course of action. But best how? Would it improve overall public safety? Would the world be better because someone is punished for an unintended death. Likely as not, the shooter was a frightened and angry teen as opposed to a "superpredator". Yet another black male in prison. But so what? This will not do much to address that core issues that maintain the marginalization and criminalization of the black community. I am not saying that we accept or ignore these tragedies, but that we need to think bigger than merely locking up the guy with poor aim.
5
forced? if only i could live in the community/country/world I imagine.
comments like this, and they 'likes' that it got, speak volume as to how big a divide is between the races when it comes to the perspective on crime and what's the acceptable threshold
2
Why do we always talk about the race of victims when the perpetrators are nearly always the same race? Black victimhood is the cornerstone of progressive politics, but no one wants to talk about black responsibility; white racism is the only acceptable cause.
Rather than saying that 'gun violence' takes thousands of young black lives, would it not be more constructive to acknowledge that other young blacks take thousands of black lives?
Rather than saying that 'gun violence' takes thousands of young black lives, would it not be more constructive to acknowledge that other young blacks take thousands of black lives?
5
Just another reason for real gun control, which is to say a ban on most sales.
8
Criminals who will kill as a business process will not bother with what you demanding. As residents of The Big Apple, a place with the maximum laws you demand, they do not care about the law.
Try that kind of behavior in most of the rest of the county, and the outcome would be different.
Try that kind of behavior in most of the rest of the county, and the outcome would be different.
9
If availability of guns is the cause of this mayhem, why don't we see similar murder rates everywhere in the US, rather than in just a few big city black neighborhoods?
7
I am amazed by the lack of empathy and judgmental attitude many are expressing here. It's clear to me that those who judge the members of this community for not coming forward, or for wanting a larger reward for giving info, have no clue what life is like for people living as the folks in this community live. Many are just trying to survive, day to day. Those who have children live in fear of their son's or daughters being killed. People are killed for giving information to the police. They know that if someone is seen talking to the police they or their children could be killed as a result. Sometimes the killer is the next door neighbor, or lives down the hall. It's not because they don't care, its because they are scared. Plain and simple. Blaming the Black Lives Matter movement f just proves that many American's feel that this is a black/latino problem, and not the responsibility of the society at large.
22
I blame the residents not because of lack of empathy, but rather because they could just call the police. Explain that they need protection and anonymity and everything will be fine.
5
There is a prevailing perspective in neighborhoods of people who have been left behind in this country whether it be impoverished racial minorities or impoverished and poorly educated people of any race, that everything about this country's government and public institutions are against them and against their interests. Because the people in these neighborhoods are impoverished and not well able find good jobs, more of them will turn to criminal activities and those who do will be the most determined to succeed at any cost, and also since they cannot expect long and satisfying lives, any risks are acceptable. It means that the criminals are neighbors, families members, and friends. It means that if anyone discloses what they know to the police, their cooperation will bring retaliation or people that they know will suffer. In the end, the system will still be against them, no matter what. So police and prosecutors cannot find cooperative witnesses when innocents are murdered because of mistrust. As we have seen in all of these high profile cases over the last few years bringing out outraged protestors and national condemnation of the police and of the public institutions as oppressors, which reflects the attitudes prevailing in these communities. That the facts confirmed rarely correspond to the presumed facts makes no difference in any of these communities, their prejudices go back generations into different times and will not easily be given up.
20
It is a lot easier to kneel during the National Anthem than assist the police in the apprehension of a killer. Not just easier, but more acceptable. Maybe if the FBI stopped persecuting the police and helped out, they could find the killer. Do Black Lives really matter to Black people?
39
Cleo: "Do Black Lives really matter to Black people?"I
I am sickened beyond words by your question.
Racism at its finest.
Shame!
I am sickened beyond words by your question.
Racism at its finest.
Shame!
12
Your pandering to the BLM doesn't help, if black lives matter to black people they would have spoken up. Stop playing the race card and accept the facts in front of you. No, I'm not white.
7
I happen to agree with Cleo. There is hypocrisy in the whole black rights movement by blacks against blacks
10
Much urban gun violence is fueled by the drug trade. If the laws were amended to put addicts in community homes and rehab and legalize all drugs gun violence would drop dramatically. The "war on drugs" has been a dismal failure and it's past due time to end it and enter a new era of no violence and rehab for addicts. If we simply think several steps ahead - addict seeks drugs - dealer sells them drugs - dealers fight over territory - dealers kill each other and innocent people - jails fill with addicts and dealers - drugs are sold and ingested in jails. Our government feeds this cycle, and is central to it. It's time for our elected officials to wake up and end the "war on drugs," it's causing urban gun violence.
7
Ted,
Even if many homicides are not directly drug-related, the reason Philly is drowning in guns is because of the drug trade.
In other words, the proliferation of guns in Philly stems from the drug trade. Many murders here in Chicago have nothing to do with drugs, but the city is awash in guns - and that originated from the drug trade.
Even if many homicides are not directly drug-related, the reason Philly is drowning in guns is because of the drug trade.
In other words, the proliferation of guns in Philly stems from the drug trade. Many murders here in Chicago have nothing to do with drugs, but the city is awash in guns - and that originated from the drug trade.
1
$2,500 reward for this Black mother of three and $300,000 for the White attractive Queens jogger. All lives are not equal.
11
If one community does not help, by act or donation, find the killer of someone, how does that make another community that does a sign of inequality. Seems more like a different outcome. It is the community taking their liberty to support a victim. Some communities support victims better than others. Apparently in this case, the perpetrator is getting the one being supported. The perpetrator's liberty is more valuable to this community than this woman's life. Incredibly sad.
12
For those who ask about protesting, try to understand that you can be murdered for speaking out against violence in these communities. Further a police killing involves the Constitutional Rights of the victim. I though conservatives valued the Constitution, so why do they not understand the role of Constitutional Rights in police killings. Whereas being murdered by a drug dealer - if handled properly results in due process - arrest, arraignment, trial or plea. Is this a difficult concept?
3
I was a child in the 1960s into the early 1970s when my family and I lived in the John Adams houses. It was unheard of for anyone to have a gun, much less fall victim to gun violence. One important piece of this very complicated puzzle is the shamefully easy access to guns as well as their unchecked proliferation.
18
Blame the 4th and 5th Amendments. That is what drives the availability of guns in this environment. The number or availability of them is not the source of the problem - other parts have many, many more guns. Florida has 1,417,059 residents with permits to carry concealed weapons. These law-abiding citizens have a criminal conviction rate LOWER than LEOs involving firearms.
6
As long as the black community tolerates the violence that plagues it then expect nothing to change. People only get angry when police are involved, sometimes justifiably, sometimes not so, yet the community, politicians and the media play down the everyday violence and killings in our inner cities and that's the crying shame of it.
33
Indifference to anyone under dire threat of their life is the worst of all crimes. Some countries will prosecute those that do not in anyway try to come to the aid of someone in danger.
6
I live with my husband, mother-in-law, and a family friend just a few blocks from John Adams Houses. If I take the 2 train home, which my husband asks me not to do for safety, the Adams Houses, basketball courts, and playground are on my route home along with a church, corner stores, and other apartment buildings. Unlike me, a Midwest transplant, my Bronx family grew up in this neighborhood and lived with the complicated experiences of being direct and indirect victims of gang control of the neighborhood, and of being gang members or gang affiliated themselves for protection and survival. By listening, I've learned some of this history, including how older gangs formed to create economic opportunity in neglected neighborhoods. I encourage others to learn more about this history from people who actually lived it before jumping to accusations of the residents.
It is unfair and unjust that in the South Bronx and many other neighborhoods, just a few blocks can make the difference between having a safe walk home, a safe place to be with your kids, and a safe home. Our neighborhood lies at the overlapping, inconsistent district lines of the 40th & 41st Police Precincts, City Council Districts 8 & 17, Bronx Community Boards 1 & 2, State Assembly Districts 79, 84, & 85, and State Senate Districts 29 & 32. Some of the most powerful politicians in the City and State are our representatives. Who among our appointed and elected officials will step up and take responsibility? I'm ready.
It is unfair and unjust that in the South Bronx and many other neighborhoods, just a few blocks can make the difference between having a safe walk home, a safe place to be with your kids, and a safe home. Our neighborhood lies at the overlapping, inconsistent district lines of the 40th & 41st Police Precincts, City Council Districts 8 & 17, Bronx Community Boards 1 & 2, State Assembly Districts 79, 84, & 85, and State Senate Districts 29 & 32. Some of the most powerful politicians in the City and State are our representatives. Who among our appointed and elected officials will step up and take responsibility? I'm ready.
59
This story like many others in the "news" go above and beyond to imply that Black people do not care about each other and that there is no action unless an officer is involved--all of which is untrue! The news doesn't cover the mobilization of Black organizations--secular or non secular--unless they can somehow taint the movement. BLM is positive, but the media makes sure it implies that they are the cause of violence at protests. Then people, who have never been to a community meeting, a protest, or to city hall get on social media and ask "Where are the Black Lives Matter people?" as if before BLM there was nothing. Check your ignorance and racism and have a two seats--one for you and your friend?
5
In other words why should all these comententers even comment? Just another day in the hood? Like maybe because one third of the City's budget, $26billion is going to prop these failings on a large scale. Because just maybe people are just getting sick of it? A black mom get shot dead in a playground in front of her two kids and who exactly should check their ignorance?
12
@Patrick $26billion?! Where's your evidence?! If that kind of money was being spent education would be up and employment down.
If a cop killed that mother, all the other cops would suddenly get amnesia as a blue wall of silence descended over that police force.
And there would be no outcry from the right.
And there would be no outcry from the right.
9
"Since the beginning of 2015, there have been at least 122 felony crimes in and around the Adams Houses, according to a city crime map. By comparison, the killing of Ms. Vetrano in Queens was one of three felony crimes recorded within 10 square blocks over the same period."
If you divide X amount of attention among three crimes, each one will get a lot more attention than if you divide X among 122 crimes. It's not that police care less about black people, it's that there's so much more crime. Simple math. Inescapable, in many ways.
If you divide X amount of attention among three crimes, each one will get a lot more attention than if you divide X among 122 crimes. It's not that police care less about black people, it's that there's so much more crime. Simple math. Inescapable, in many ways.
21
So you'd think there would be more resources and cops for the area with 122 felonies, wouldn't you? Not fewer?
12
Why send more resources to a community that refuses to use them?
5
dan stackhouse, thank you! maybe since you're a brave, insightful guy, immune to fear and "self inflicted" problems, and ready to intervene in violence and report problems to the police-- no doubt a helpful idea that has never before been tried in this community!-- you should consider moving to the Bronx to help out. I'm sure people could use your advice and assistance there! plus no one wants to lose the sympathy of a guy like you...
13
Thanks for the sarcasm AD. I'm sure you're a big help for these problems too, right?
So yeah, as it happens, I actually am a brave, insightful guy, not immune to fear but not ruled by it, and I do intervene in violence and report problems to the police. People like me are what helps keep my neighborhood fairly safe.
But I'm not going to move to the Bronx and try to help out there, because I don't feel like getting killed in trying to solve this problem, and it isn't my problem. And before you criticize me for that, keep in mind that you aren't going to move there and help out either.
So yeah, as it happens, I actually am a brave, insightful guy, not immune to fear but not ruled by it, and I do intervene in violence and report problems to the police. People like me are what helps keep my neighborhood fairly safe.
But I'm not going to move to the Bronx and try to help out there, because I don't feel like getting killed in trying to solve this problem, and it isn't my problem. And before you criticize me for that, keep in mind that you aren't going to move there and help out either.
6
Also, AD, I'm a little puzzled on how you chose to attack my comment, out of the 272 here, when many other people said similar things to what I did, and I wasn't a NYT pick or a highly recommended comment. Why is this my problem, and why should I be berated for it?
4
Residents fault the police for not doing enough despite their own lack of cooperation. Then when the police do step up their presence or implement tactics like 'stop & frisk', they are accused of being an occupying army and racist. Heaven forbid they shoot one of these perpetrators trying to stop a crime or apprehend them. Only then do the protestors come out. It's a no win until good people decide they have had enough.
33
More police presence, better rewards and all the rest will not stop a young man who's set on killing another. All they have to do is wait for the police to head off to another area and shoot to kill. We often forget just how easy it is to kill someone. The effort needs to be in the head of the killer. We need to get to those young (mostly) men before they come to a point in their lives where they so devalue the lives of others that they feel they have the right to snuff them out. If we can somehow change that thinking very early on we have a chance. But unless we assign a cop to every block, playground and stairwell, it's a losing battle. Give the young men the education, safety and opportunity to do something better with themselves and most will choose that over running around like children playing cops and robbers.
I still don't understand why drugs are illegal.
Make them legal.
Crime basically disappears, no?
Make them legal.
Crime basically disappears, no?
3
Brilliant idea but why stop there , lets make all crimes legal and then all the crime will disappear.
12
This story, without a shadow of doubt, depicts an obscene American gun problem, but more importantly it lays bare a widespread civic dysfunction repeated endlessly, particularly in cities, across the nation.
A society that tolerates such embedded dysfunction is not civilized. It is not normal for people to care so little for their own communities, wholly innocent children, mothers and folks simply trying to get by that the risk of slaying them is less important than revenge for petty grievance.
A nation that does nothing constructive to break such a gruesome cycle of carnage, creating sufficient opportunity to persuade its citizens that community-building is a better way than violence for decent living is not civilized.
We have truly given civil society over to the law of the jungle, and too many of us could care less. We should be ashamed.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
A society that tolerates such embedded dysfunction is not civilized. It is not normal for people to care so little for their own communities, wholly innocent children, mothers and folks simply trying to get by that the risk of slaying them is less important than revenge for petty grievance.
A nation that does nothing constructive to break such a gruesome cycle of carnage, creating sufficient opportunity to persuade its citizens that community-building is a better way than violence for decent living is not civilized.
We have truly given civil society over to the law of the jungle, and too many of us could care less. We should be ashamed.
www.endthemadnessnow.org
16
it's not the problem with guns; it is a black on black crime problem. Get real, dude.
27
So, Sonny, You're saying that black people are inherently violent? Other folks are more civilized? Have you considered America's recent history of mass shootings? How many of the perpetrators were black? The proportion is minuscule.
5
Most of the gun violence in the inner city is committed by gang-bangers and drug dealers who have been terrorizing Black (and Brown) neighbourhoods for years. It's easy to blame the people who live in these neighbourhoods for having too many kids or not staying in school or whatever. But my question is how do the drugs and the guns get in those neighbourhoods? Are we supposed to believe that poorly educated gang members are responsible for importing massive amounts of drugs? Or capable of importing war-grade automatic weapons? Somebody else (probably somebody who lives in a much nicer neighbourhood) brings that stuff into the US. The inner-city is just the dumping ground.
The people who make the REAL money from the sale of drugs and guns know they can do what they want in the inner-city because no one will care. They know that the majority population believe that the people in THOSE neighbourhoods have brought all of this horror on themselves and if they only pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps, everything would be fine and dandy.
It's only when the violence starts to move into the suburbs (where most of the customers for the drugs sold in the inner-city live) that change will happen. And that's what the police are for; to make sure that kind of violence never makes it to the suburbs.
The people who make the REAL money from the sale of drugs and guns know they can do what they want in the inner-city because no one will care. They know that the majority population believe that the people in THOSE neighbourhoods have brought all of this horror on themselves and if they only pulled themselves up by their own bootstraps, everything would be fine and dandy.
It's only when the violence starts to move into the suburbs (where most of the customers for the drugs sold in the inner-city live) that change will happen. And that's what the police are for; to make sure that kind of violence never makes it to the suburbs.
11
See: Frank Lucas
1
Dear PL from NY, Regina from NY, and Lucille from Texas among others,
Black Lives Matter, in my mind, is largely divorced from a solution to the violence within the black community. As the article suggests and other readers have pointed out, the solution is layered as the problem is systemic. Have you have grown up or lived in a Bronx housing project? Are you familiar with the emotional and psychological effects of living near gang violence and drug addiction?
To make a sad suggestion, I recommend watching the entire series of the Wire, which explores (and sways from glamourising) life in the streets of Baltimore. Perhaps this will give you some armchair insight into the dynamic of an overworked staff of detectives and the cycle of inner city poverty.
Thank you to the editorial staff for this front page coverage.
Black Lives Matter, in my mind, is largely divorced from a solution to the violence within the black community. As the article suggests and other readers have pointed out, the solution is layered as the problem is systemic. Have you have grown up or lived in a Bronx housing project? Are you familiar with the emotional and psychological effects of living near gang violence and drug addiction?
To make a sad suggestion, I recommend watching the entire series of the Wire, which explores (and sways from glamourising) life in the streets of Baltimore. Perhaps this will give you some armchair insight into the dynamic of an overworked staff of detectives and the cycle of inner city poverty.
Thank you to the editorial staff for this front page coverage.
6
This killing is horrific and mirrors similar murders in poor downtrodden minority areas of Chicago and Baltimore. Race no doubt plays a role in the the lack of resources and attention to these murders by the police and local media. However, beyond race the person's class, education and perhaps more importantly, attractiveness plays a role too. After the young women was murdered while jogging in Queens one of the first things highly profiled by the media were very attractive photos of her while partying or going out somewhere in NYC. In addition, she came from from a solidly middle class background - I believe her father had been a retired fireman. Poverty perhaps even more than race condemns the people housing projects into an existence where one's life matters less. If a trailer park white person ended up dead deep in the heart of West Virginia, I would expect the media would again pay extremely little attention to the outcome.
19
I can't imagine going through this, in the place that is your home. It is very sad.
6
Lack of cooperation is understandable. Their environment takes people who are clearly having a very hard time and forces them into contact with a judicial and social system that is unprepared for them and, not infrequently, the outcome can be worse than the initial problem. It is too late. A sad and unnecessary death is made worse by a system that can frequently exacerbate the tragedy. If this were not true, these people would be able to come forward.
18
Stop blaming the NYPD, low reward $. Stop playing the race card. Your chant should be:
"NO COOPERATION. NO PEACE!"
Maybe your brothers and sisters will listen and come forward.
"NO COOPERATION. NO PEACE!"
Maybe your brothers and sisters will listen and come forward.
55
this and comments like these disgust me. is this really your takeaway from this story? do you think an entire community is stupid? what did end up happening to that teenager who testified--were the cops able to protect her, her friends, and her family? from what position do you dispense advice and judgement--whose sister or brother are you?
14
She says she's writing from East 63rd Street.
3
We all know what happens to snitches, rats and whistleblowers. Bottom line, you tell on someone in your "community", you lose the protection and good will of that community at best. At worse, you will face devastating retribution. Many of the witnesses may not be gang members themselves but gangs permeate the fabric of their community. They stand to pay a heavy price for singing.
Some possibilities:
they could get killed
their family member in prison may lose protection or suffer retribution, "your sister put me in here..."
their kids could be targeted
they could lose their social network because the shooter is somebody's brother/boyfriend/babyfather/cousin
And what do you get in return if you speak up? The unintended is still dead. Those kids are still motherless. But now, despite no crime other than reporting one, your life is damaged or even forfeit.
I mean come on, what happens if a whitecollar guy reports illegal activity perpetrated his gummint? The thanks you get is a very private room that you stay in 23hours a day.
Keep your eyes down and your mouth shut....
Some possibilities:
they could get killed
their family member in prison may lose protection or suffer retribution, "your sister put me in here..."
their kids could be targeted
they could lose their social network because the shooter is somebody's brother/boyfriend/babyfather/cousin
And what do you get in return if you speak up? The unintended is still dead. Those kids are still motherless. But now, despite no crime other than reporting one, your life is damaged or even forfeit.
I mean come on, what happens if a whitecollar guy reports illegal activity perpetrated his gummint? The thanks you get is a very private room that you stay in 23hours a day.
Keep your eyes down and your mouth shut....
13
Only on death row, or in protective custody, or in Supermax do you stay in a cell 23 hours a day.
6
Refusing to step up and make your home a better place is a choice, it may be a very hard choice for many to make, but it is a choice. No-snitch culture is killing people and ruining neighborhoods. Step-up, speak-up and give these communities an opportunity to build up. You call them snitches, but they are human who have said ENOUGH is enough. I grew up in a bad place and I always said something. Keep your eyes open and open your mouth or you are part of the problem.
18
we could add -- what happens when cops whistleblow on other cops? the same thing...
6
The military and other security agencies use dogs to sniff out drugs and explosives. Gun powder gives off chemicals that dogs can sniff as well. The time has come to train dogs to sniff out guns and ammunition. Train several teams of dogs and handlers and then go building to building, apartment to apartment, car to car, and if necessary person to person and sniff out the guns and the ammunition.
I know that civil libertarians and many people concerned about discrimination and racial profiling will strongly if not vehemently protest this suggestion. They will assert that it offends their dignity, their privacy and that it singles out black males. Well, maybe it does.
There comes a time when we have to put the rights of innocents above the rights of gang members, drug dealers, and people who carry and used guns. There is a difference. It is not stop and frisk. If we use dogs (and I understand how blacks revile the use of dogs) and go after the gun men who indiscriminately maim and murder others exactly what is the complaint?
Let's use all the tools we have to remove criminals from the streets and also from the buildings.
We could also place metal detectors at the entrances to the buildings and if necessary to the community in general. No one in or out without being scanned. Its better than being shot down in front of your kids. Far better. Maybe the gang bangers will get the message.
Its time to go on the offensive and make the criminals pay a steep price.
I know that civil libertarians and many people concerned about discrimination and racial profiling will strongly if not vehemently protest this suggestion. They will assert that it offends their dignity, their privacy and that it singles out black males. Well, maybe it does.
There comes a time when we have to put the rights of innocents above the rights of gang members, drug dealers, and people who carry and used guns. There is a difference. It is not stop and frisk. If we use dogs (and I understand how blacks revile the use of dogs) and go after the gun men who indiscriminately maim and murder others exactly what is the complaint?
Let's use all the tools we have to remove criminals from the streets and also from the buildings.
We could also place metal detectors at the entrances to the buildings and if necessary to the community in general. No one in or out without being scanned. Its better than being shot down in front of your kids. Far better. Maybe the gang bangers will get the message.
Its time to go on the offensive and make the criminals pay a steep price.
12
It has become clear that America's judicial and law enforcement system is not compatible with some of our diverse communities. Being a multicultural country means one solution does not fit all situations.
The police and the judicial system should step back and allow the Bronx and other inner city communities solve these problems on their own, using their own version of justice, without imposing a system invented by and for white men.
The police and the judicial system should step back and allow the Bronx and other inner city communities solve these problems on their own, using their own version of justice, without imposing a system invented by and for white men.
8
Yeah, that'll work!
6
Oh, I see now. The solution in this narrative is for American communities to become not-American communities in order to carry out cultural cleansing of suspected perps. In case you don't know, in America, suspects are presumed innocent until proven guilty.
7
If you don't help the police catch criminals, don't blame the police or anyone but yourself for high crime rates in your neighborhood.
49
Who speaks for the innocent or heroes that have fallen ?
It would seem the silence is deafening ( and deadly. )
It would seem the silence is deafening ( and deadly. )
12
I have an idea! How about gun control? Oh, I forgot, the Second Amendment protects inner city gang members' right to defend themselves. The more kids are murdered the more guns and bullets have to be manufactured and sold. So on it goes.
13
We had strict gun control for years in Chicago... in fact some of the strictest in the nation, and yet violent crime and shootings did not decrease.
12
These are not legal guns.
11
Funny.
Gun control. As if that would stop anybody from getting a gun.
Kind of like "alcohol control." We passed the 18th Amendment in 1920 making the manufacture, sale, distribution, and consumption of that drug illegal and had to repeal the Amendment because it made alcohol MORE AVAILABLE to more people, and more deadly. Consumption increased, criminals prospered, more people died.
Ditto on the idiotic notion of "gun control." If you think that genie is going back in the bottle, I've got a bridge in the Bronx to sell you.
By the way, alcohol still kills 3X as many Americans every year compared to guns.
Gun control. As if that would stop anybody from getting a gun.
Kind of like "alcohol control." We passed the 18th Amendment in 1920 making the manufacture, sale, distribution, and consumption of that drug illegal and had to repeal the Amendment because it made alcohol MORE AVAILABLE to more people, and more deadly. Consumption increased, criminals prospered, more people died.
Ditto on the idiotic notion of "gun control." If you think that genie is going back in the bottle, I've got a bridge in the Bronx to sell you.
By the way, alcohol still kills 3X as many Americans every year compared to guns.
10
The police often make things worse. That's why nobody trusts them.
4
Not NYC cops in 2016. They are a decent bunch.
11
There is one hero in this neighborhood.
sad that they cannot even name her (likely because it would put her at risk)
"The second time Mr. Smalls tried to shoot Mr. White, on July 25, he missed again, but a 16-year-old girl was in the lobby and witnessed part of the setup. When she was called to testify, Mr. Smalls’s associates filled the court benches in front of her, causing her to break down in tears on the stand and equivocate for nearly half an hour before pointing him out."
sad that they cannot even name her (likely because it would put her at risk)
"The second time Mr. Smalls tried to shoot Mr. White, on July 25, he missed again, but a 16-year-old girl was in the lobby and witnessed part of the setup. When she was called to testify, Mr. Smalls’s associates filled the court benches in front of her, causing her to break down in tears on the stand and equivocate for nearly half an hour before pointing him out."
44
The 'no snitching' policy is so evil, suicidal and destructive, I'm nearly at a loss for words reading this article. YET ANOTHER terrible, senseless murder thanks to low impulse control and nihilistic values. WHEN WILL IT END?!
How depressing and horrific that these communities are so sadistically violent amongst themselves that even the murder of innocents is normalized.
How depressing and horrific that these communities are so sadistically violent amongst themselves that even the murder of innocents is normalized.
22
This is a heartbreaking story. I feel so sad for the mother who lost her daughter, the fiancé who lost his beloved, and most of all for the children who have to grow up without their mother. Why can't the city do more to provide security for these housing projects? Why is the business of selling illegal guns flourishing? It seems to be that if you are poor in America your life doesn't matter much. If you are poor and black, you are virtually invisible.
41
We have had four gun store robberies in Charlotte in the last two months.
The thieves steal a pick up truck, tie chains to the gates and doors and rear bumper They pull out the doors and rush in with hammers and pillow cases to steal as many guns as they can before police answer the monitored alarm. They drive of in an escape vehicle and leave the stolen truck. Video cameras catch the whole operation inside and out.
We don't get many burglaries here because the thieves know most of us are armed and if we're not here the guns are locked up and hidden. Hitting the stores is the really only way to get them and it is increasing in frequency.
The thieves steal a pick up truck, tie chains to the gates and doors and rear bumper They pull out the doors and rush in with hammers and pillow cases to steal as many guns as they can before police answer the monitored alarm. They drive of in an escape vehicle and leave the stolen truck. Video cameras catch the whole operation inside and out.
We don't get many burglaries here because the thieves know most of us are armed and if we're not here the guns are locked up and hidden. Hitting the stores is the really only way to get them and it is increasing in frequency.
1
New York tightly controls hand gun but still one can get them because they are imported from the Red States which have little or no meaningful background checks. We need strong Federal laws that mandate extensive background checks, the number of weapons one can buy and other regulations. Those changes won't affect the legitimate gun owners like me but would make it a lot harder for the criminals and crazies to get guns.
We also need to quit giving lip service to the safety of minority areas. Black lives do matter as much as white lives but in white areas the policing is more visible and the efforts to solve crimes is far more rigorous.
We also need to quit giving lip service to the safety of minority areas. Black lives do matter as much as white lives but in white areas the policing is more visible and the efforts to solve crimes is far more rigorous.
43
Yo Jeff,
Hate to tell you this, France basically outlaws gun possession by civilians and that didn't stop a mass murder there last year. The only thing you are going to do with your worship of federal gun control laws is harass honest gun owners. The turd class will always get one, don't worry.
You said something halfway intelligent, allow me to point it out. "We also need to quit giving lip service to the safety of minority areas. Black lives do matter as much as white lives but in white areas the policing is more visible and the efforts to solve crimes is far more rigorous."
Well, hate to shock you, most post forces put more units, etc out in poor and minority areas because, get this, that's where the crime is. But I think you missed the point of this article. A woman was murdered in front of her neighbors and nobody saw nothing. That's the norm. We had a man shot in front of a stop and rob in Houston's 5th Ward, with over 50 people with cell phones, and "nobody saw nothing..." And nothing will change, unless people starting talking to the cops and telling us who's doing the murder, robbery, etc.
Hate to tell you this, France basically outlaws gun possession by civilians and that didn't stop a mass murder there last year. The only thing you are going to do with your worship of federal gun control laws is harass honest gun owners. The turd class will always get one, don't worry.
You said something halfway intelligent, allow me to point it out. "We also need to quit giving lip service to the safety of minority areas. Black lives do matter as much as white lives but in white areas the policing is more visible and the efforts to solve crimes is far more rigorous."
Well, hate to shock you, most post forces put more units, etc out in poor and minority areas because, get this, that's where the crime is. But I think you missed the point of this article. A woman was murdered in front of her neighbors and nobody saw nothing. That's the norm. We had a man shot in front of a stop and rob in Houston's 5th Ward, with over 50 people with cell phones, and "nobody saw nothing..." And nothing will change, unless people starting talking to the cops and telling us who's doing the murder, robbery, etc.
14
Every person who buys a gun must be a resident of the state they buy it in in order to take it with them. That's federal law. If you buy it and are not a resident it must be shipped to a federally licensed dealer in your state who is required to whatever your state requires by law including background checks.
Finally, before you get that gun you must fill out a Form 4473 then the dealer calls the FBI NICS line to make sure you are not on a Do Not Sell list.
Before you call our states into question perhaps you should educate yourself on our laws.
The majority of dealers do not sell weapons illegally. BATFE conducts inventory checks on a regular basis and has a no tolerance policy on irregularities.
No laws will stop a person from buying a stolen gun. There are laws against "straw buyers", people entitled to buy guns who then sell them to those prohibited but until that gun is found and the serial numbers tracked from manufacturer to wholesaler to dealer and then buyer nothing can be done about that person.
Finally, before you get that gun you must fill out a Form 4473 then the dealer calls the FBI NICS line to make sure you are not on a Do Not Sell list.
Before you call our states into question perhaps you should educate yourself on our laws.
The majority of dealers do not sell weapons illegally. BATFE conducts inventory checks on a regular basis and has a no tolerance policy on irregularities.
No laws will stop a person from buying a stolen gun. There are laws against "straw buyers", people entitled to buy guns who then sell them to those prohibited but until that gun is found and the serial numbers tracked from manufacturer to wholesaler to dealer and then buyer nothing can be done about that person.
5
So why there isn't as much crime in those red states that supply all these guns. After all, the guns are much more avail over there?
3
This is sad. What was the motive? There was a car waiting so apparently there was a point. If the cops know who was in the park maybe they could figure out who the real target was. I've watched enough cop shows to know that the police investigate the victim and then work their ways backward from there. She was clean so the assumption is she wasn't the target.
While I lived in the Bronx in the 60's, it was not like this. "Gangs" fought with fists. Maybe a bat would be engaged. A gun was a "Saturday night special" and usually a .22. If you did get shot it was in the buttocks or a leg. Shooting was not to kill. I saw little of this. Most of the people I saw were going and coming from work each day. Like another commenter said, most of the people are decent being held hostage by the few.
I left long ago, left my family and just hopped on a plane and went back to the state of my birth where my dad still lived with his new wife. I stayed with him for about two weeks. Got a job within a week, found my own place, and sent for my son.
While I lived in the Bronx in the 60's, it was not like this. "Gangs" fought with fists. Maybe a bat would be engaged. A gun was a "Saturday night special" and usually a .22. If you did get shot it was in the buttocks or a leg. Shooting was not to kill. I saw little of this. Most of the people I saw were going and coming from work each day. Like another commenter said, most of the people are decent being held hostage by the few.
I left long ago, left my family and just hopped on a plane and went back to the state of my birth where my dad still lived with his new wife. I stayed with him for about two weeks. Got a job within a week, found my own place, and sent for my son.
12
Good for you! Best of continuing luck.
3
That the neighborhood can't give the poor woman justice because of fear of retribution is not a reason for condemnation. It is a show of the power that is held by the few ready, willing and able to dole out merciless violence. If there was an easy answer we wouldn't be reading this article.
Does it also show that the poor are cast aside? It does in as much as they are in the grip of this awful power and can't do much about it.
It's creepy that the NYT spent so much effort faithfully reporting the situation as it is and not much effort imagining or pointing towards a better outcome. Small town papers aren't afraid to open that can of worms. Crowdsource anyone?
Does it also show that the poor are cast aside? It does in as much as they are in the grip of this awful power and can't do much about it.
It's creepy that the NYT spent so much effort faithfully reporting the situation as it is and not much effort imagining or pointing towards a better outcome. Small town papers aren't afraid to open that can of worms. Crowdsource anyone?
8
The reward isn't even enough to pay for a coffin, plot and headstone. Got to at least reach that number to be even.
5
I am stunned by many commentators who admonish people in the community for not coming out with more information.
Haven't you read in this story about a 16 year old girl who had to point out a criminal in front of his gang buddies?
It is too risky to cooperate with the police because people in the community know one another so well. It would be difficult to be protected by police in their best efforts.
Haven't you read in this story about a 16 year old girl who had to point out a criminal in front of his gang buddies?
It is too risky to cooperate with the police because people in the community know one another so well. It would be difficult to be protected by police in their best efforts.
19
Thank you for pointing out a haunting line from this story. I don't understand how commenters can claim to have read this article when their remarks seem to overlook the role of intimidation employed by the gang network at trials.
7
This alarming trend of not reporting crimes to the authorities is not in the urban cities alone. It has migrated to the suburbs as well. The reigns of terror involving gangs has spread beyond places such as the Bronx. Ask any resident of Brentwood, Long Island. It is especially true in rural areas too. Today whenever anyone reports a dangerous individual(s), their lives, (family members included) and property become fair game to many murderous felons. It is a reign of terror that controls the citizens of many communities.
More than one family has moved out of town or state quickly when confronted with these similar issues. And the police wonder why nobody cooperates? Bottom line is fear. A life is nothing any longer in America.
We have evolved into a third world country, just like the ones that many immigrants, legal or illegal, have fled. And it is glamourized. Thug life-ugh.
More than one family has moved out of town or state quickly when confronted with these similar issues. And the police wonder why nobody cooperates? Bottom line is fear. A life is nothing any longer in America.
We have evolved into a third world country, just like the ones that many immigrants, legal or illegal, have fled. And it is glamourized. Thug life-ugh.
16
I watched The Bronx die in the 1960s. And so it goes on.
11
CO-OP City killed the Bronx.
1
After many months of the nytimes leading with stories of indigenous racism in our police and endlessly shaming our citizens for discrimination op-ed decides to publish this's ad and tragic crime. Such events in our impoverished inner cities and rural towns are far more common but instructive about the dire lives of our poorest citizens and their communities. But crime stories are a tedious read and better left to the tabloids and Fox News screamers.
2
Perhaps the reason the Police are putting more resources on Ms. Vetrano's crime is that they have found that, due in large part to more public cooperation in such crimes, they have a better chance of solving it. Given limited resources, it is only logical to work at that which gives one the higher chance of success.
I see three alternatives for the crimes in this, or any other, neighborhood. One, live with it, which seems to be the current choice. Two, cooperate fully with the Police in solving crimes; this means not just tip lines but being willing to go to court and testify. Three, take matters into your own hands, either in the fashion of Death Wish or Magnificent Seven.
I see three alternatives for the crimes in this, or any other, neighborhood. One, live with it, which seems to be the current choice. Two, cooperate fully with the Police in solving crimes; this means not just tip lines but being willing to go to court and testify. Three, take matters into your own hands, either in the fashion of Death Wish or Magnificent Seven.
11
So, black lives matter. I am an ardent supporter. However, do black lives matter all the time or just when convenient? Children are being murdered, lives are being trapped in a cycle of addiction and death. Were cars burnt and honest business robbed in protest of these shootings?
28
There were no protests. Would you feel better if people had burned down cars? Your post is a little unclear on this topic.
1
How dare you read of this family's grief and community's frustration and conclude that they don't care about the death of this woman. How dare you.
6
And another set of orphaned children is created, another parent has to raise her grandchildren, and a murder cannot be solved because the community is terrified to speak out. It's perfectly reasonable for them not to say anything if they want to continue living. As angry or upset as they may be over the murder of Jessica White or any other person saying something to the police can be a direct path to their deaths. Perhaps they want to raise their children, see their grandchildren, grow old in peace, or try to move out if they can. But unless they are positive that they can be protected for speaking out silence equals life.
I don't know the answer to the problems in these neighborhoods. Everything I've read about it seems to say that even if the residents want to form a community organization to stop the crime/gangs, the gangs have the weapons and thus the upper hand. Maybe the best answer is to provide vouchers that will allow residents who want to get away to do so but the vouchers have to be guaranteed and for enough so that the recipients can move to much safer neighborhoods. And yet, will they be accepted in other neighborhoods? Will their new community welcome them or blame them? How will they feel leaving behind friends and family? There's a lot more to this than moving but it could be a start.
I don't know the answer to the problems in these neighborhoods. Everything I've read about it seems to say that even if the residents want to form a community organization to stop the crime/gangs, the gangs have the weapons and thus the upper hand. Maybe the best answer is to provide vouchers that will allow residents who want to get away to do so but the vouchers have to be guaranteed and for enough so that the recipients can move to much safer neighborhoods. And yet, will they be accepted in other neighborhoods? Will their new community welcome them or blame them? How will they feel leaving behind friends and family? There's a lot more to this than moving but it could be a start.
4
I grew up in the Bronx and lost my father and an uncle to gun violence in the early 80's. So many comments here place the blame on the people in the community for not doing more to help the police solve these crimes, despite the obvious danger to themselves. I challenge any person living in the relative safety of nice middle class neighborhoods to take a walk in these peoples shoes. In a classroom, a few bad disruptive students can prevent all the other students from learning because they take all of the teachers attention. Well in the ghetto a small group of gang bangers and drug dealers run the projects and prevent the other residents from living in peace and safety. These people are effectively held hostage in their own communities, because the view from the outside is that they choose to live like this and many of them are criminals anyway so why bother. Some of the police genuinely care, but a good many of them treat the residents like less than human because they are poor.
I am black, but I am an educated business owner, and live in a nice home. On the one occasion when the police had to come to our home in 2015, when my husbands ex-wife made a drunken scene, they treated us with way more respect than I ever witnessed or encountered in the nearly 30 years I lived in the Bronx before moving to Queens.
I am black, but I am an educated business owner, and live in a nice home. On the one occasion when the police had to come to our home in 2015, when my husbands ex-wife made a drunken scene, they treated us with way more respect than I ever witnessed or encountered in the nearly 30 years I lived in the Bronx before moving to Queens.
199
Thank you so much for your comment. I have been so upset by the ignorance and callousness of most of the commenters on here, who have no grasp of the situation, that I've been struggling to find words. My father grew up in the South Bronx in horrendous poverty, but that was before drug gangs were part of the equation. However, he still gets it. Thank you for putting my thoughts into words.
5
BLM has demonstrated that they can bus in 100s and 1000s of protestors anywhere in the country. Why can't they bus in a few 100 to this neighborhood and serve as 24 hour protection to support the witnesses and make sure justice is provided to this woman.
17
Wendy:
These comments are not being made in a vacuum. They are coming on the heels of violent protests by BLM, a barrage of criticism of police officers and attacks on Trump for daring to mention these very conditions. Further, Mayor Giuliani tried to address these problems and has been reviled as a "racist" for it.
These comments are not being made in a vacuum. They are coming on the heels of violent protests by BLM, a barrage of criticism of police officers and attacks on Trump for daring to mention these very conditions. Further, Mayor Giuliani tried to address these problems and has been reviled as a "racist" for it.
14
To be a witness is a high risk choice in this neighborhood. They are making very rational decisions
by remaining silent, and we should try to change the
equation.
Rather than remaining in the neighborhoods, the potential witnesses should be moved to locations far from the crime, inside or outside the city or state. Their immediate families should be included.
by remaining silent, and we should try to change the
equation.
Rather than remaining in the neighborhoods, the potential witnesses should be moved to locations far from the crime, inside or outside the city or state. Their immediate families should be included.
6
I agree Mr. Noble, but as I noted in my previous comment, the government is not going to put poor people and their families in Witness protection just to get a few gangbangers off the street, who will be immediately replaced by more gangbangers. Also, WITSEC is federal and will not use it's resources to relocate families for local/state level crimes. NY has a version of WITSEC as do a few other states, but they do not provide the level of protection and new identities that the feds provide. Ironically, most of the primary people in WITSEC, meaning the actual witness, not their families, are criminals. And their value comes in the ability to provide testimony/information that helps take down large criminal enterprises. The local project drug dealer/murderer is small game compared to mob bosses and cartel leaders.
7
James Noble and Wcdessert Girl: You both make excellent points in your empathetic and articulate puzzling through the underlying, inherent problems with the situation. What's truly heartbreaking is that government (whether it's city officials or other public funders) seems to view children in poor neighborhoods as unavoidable collateral damage. Putting aside for a second the tragedies of adults getting shot--whether they're bystanders or part of the problem--how is it acceptable that CHILDREN are dying, seeing their parents die, or continuing to live in intolerable crime-infested neighborhoods with little attention by our elected officials? How is that they are not putting more resources into short-term solutions such as posting a couple of more law enforcement officers on street corners and around playgrounds as visual deterrents until they can get a more long-term solution in place? Nobody chooses to be collateral damage, nobody chooses to be in an impoverished situation--least of all, children. Get it together elected officials, these children who survive grow up and will either be a value or problem to you going forward. You can help determine that right now.
3
To wcdessert girl.....
Your comments have taught me the most about the murder of this Ms White whose life with all its potential was snuffed out and whose children have lost their mother.
What are my children worth ? Could I raise my grandchildren? What could be done to alter the equation? What would my life had been like had my father been murdered?
If one drug dealer is ready and able to replace the
person convicted of Ms White's murder but the witnesses know they will be able to live where their lives
aren't endangered by gangs, at the very least some justice is achieved and a few people have a chance to
live in a safer place.
It may take a long time for the random killings to decline, but just doing what we are doing isn't working.
I can not imagine what you could have experienced to lose your father and uncle to violence. My mother died
a long time ago. I do not remember much of what she
taught me was to try to feel the hole in the other man's
shoes.
Ms White was our fellow countryman. Her children are
our fellow countrymen. Imagine is Ms White were your
daughter and her children your grandchildren.
Then try to act in such a way that our country is able
to reduce these senseless and tragic deaths.
Your comments have taught me the most about the murder of this Ms White whose life with all its potential was snuffed out and whose children have lost their mother.
What are my children worth ? Could I raise my grandchildren? What could be done to alter the equation? What would my life had been like had my father been murdered?
If one drug dealer is ready and able to replace the
person convicted of Ms White's murder but the witnesses know they will be able to live where their lives
aren't endangered by gangs, at the very least some justice is achieved and a few people have a chance to
live in a safer place.
It may take a long time for the random killings to decline, but just doing what we are doing isn't working.
I can not imagine what you could have experienced to lose your father and uncle to violence. My mother died
a long time ago. I do not remember much of what she
taught me was to try to feel the hole in the other man's
shoes.
Ms White was our fellow countryman. Her children are
our fellow countrymen. Imagine is Ms White were your
daughter and her children your grandchildren.
Then try to act in such a way that our country is able
to reduce these senseless and tragic deaths.
1
Speaking as someone who has spent his life on the left, and is now very cynical (but not voting for That Man): what would today's self-identified progressives suggest as a strategy to address this violence? What would be acceptable?
Remember, kids, it's not just about endorsing the Solution Of The Week (outcomes don't matter; Just Do Something!) and then binging on the last season of The Walking Dead.
Or is it?
Remember, kids, it's not just about endorsing the Solution Of The Week (outcomes don't matter; Just Do Something!) and then binging on the last season of The Walking Dead.
Or is it?
11
" what would today's self-identified progressives suggest as a strategy to address this violence?"
Of course it would be the standard liberal/progressive answer to everything, more government control of every aspect of people's lives and more useless, parasitic, self serving bureaucratic vermin to implement that control.
Of course it would be the standard liberal/progressive answer to everything, more government control of every aspect of people's lives and more useless, parasitic, self serving bureaucratic vermin to implement that control.
4
Detection of the pre-violent teen into a deadly shooter requires close, daily observation as well as knowledge of what kind of family conditions lead a juvenile into gang, drug violence. Unless police officers are residents on-sites where the juvenile gangs recruit members, they will not be able to pre-emptively provide the Jessica Whites and the Precious Lands, the 2 mothers killed as reported recently in the Times, with intervention safety measures. And one reason to live among the potential victims is to know who might kill them.
1
What happened to Witness Protection program? Why can't this be used in cases here?
1
Jurisdictions all over America are struggling with the issue of providing safety to witnesses who are very reasonably concerned for their personal safety. It basically comes down to money, or lack thereof. Keeping people safe - and housed, and fed - isn't cheap.
4
Because witness protection costs millions upon millions of dollars, is dependent upon the ability for the protected to keep quiet once safe and is used in cases where the target is responsible for a very large number of murders, organized crime or political corruption.
9
For those who blame the community, I suggest watching the television show THE WIRE. This is possibly the most enlightening bit of television drama ever to air. (It is available on Netflix.)
When people pronounce what "the problem" is, it only shows their ignorance at the complexity and deep roots of the situation. "The problem" lies in the international drug trade, the schools, the police, the politicians, the media, the economy, and the relationships between them all. Watch this show before you hop online to piously declare what these people "should" be doing.
When people pronounce what "the problem" is, it only shows their ignorance at the complexity and deep roots of the situation. "The problem" lies in the international drug trade, the schools, the police, the politicians, the media, the economy, and the relationships between them all. Watch this show before you hop online to piously declare what these people "should" be doing.
101
Except of course the people doing the killing and the people being killed are, as you describe them, " these people". If you want the poor cocoa farmers in Columbia to share the blame, have at it, but the solution is action in these neighborhoods. Turn the TV off and apply some thought to the problem at hand.
6
No, the problem lies with the people who commit these violent acts. It's not conscientiousness that keeps you from acknowledging this; it's your concern about how others will perceive you if you do so.
Which is to say that it's a matter of vanity. And it kills.
Which is to say that it's a matter of vanity. And it kills.
5
Felix,
The criticism you see people mentioning is related to the fact that had this mother been shot by a white cop, you would have an entire community of residents and activists (e.g. BLM) protesting the shooting.
You're right that there is a complexity to the problem, but what made BLM unique as a movement was that the black community chose to no longer accept the status quo and demand change (police shootings are also a complex problem with deep roots).
The criticism you see in the comments, is that when a black women is shot in a neighborhood like the Bronx, the neighborhood simply chooses to move on as if nothing happened. Unlike police shootings, when confronting violence within the community, these residents simply chose to accept the status quo (which stands in contrast to the reaction to police shootings).
The criticism you see people mentioning is related to the fact that had this mother been shot by a white cop, you would have an entire community of residents and activists (e.g. BLM) protesting the shooting.
You're right that there is a complexity to the problem, but what made BLM unique as a movement was that the black community chose to no longer accept the status quo and demand change (police shootings are also a complex problem with deep roots).
The criticism you see in the comments, is that when a black women is shot in a neighborhood like the Bronx, the neighborhood simply chooses to move on as if nothing happened. Unlike police shootings, when confronting violence within the community, these residents simply chose to accept the status quo (which stands in contrast to the reaction to police shootings).
9
So where do we contribute to the reward? I know that this is an article about an exemplary case. Still.
18
I was thinking the same thing. It wouldn't take many of us contributing to bring the total reward money to an amount that might prove a stronger incentive. Let's do this!
6
Local police living outside the urban neighborhoods do not know how gang members change rapidly from juvenile pranksters to young violent gangsters unless they. too, are neighbors of the victims. Effective policing must come from police officers resident on-site. The police must also be neighbors in poor urban streets. At least some of the police have to live short-term in the apartment buildings as the White family so as to identify violent shooters and arrest them before they kill anyone. Otherwise, pathetic killings go unsolved.
13
Stop pouring money down the drain. Help residents to organize themselves into a community, with individuals given positions of authority and responsibility. There are numerous examples of projects that self-organize with an elected council and rules and regulations to govern the group, and that are legally binding. The residents should feel pride in their surroundings and the liberties and responsibilities that ensure a safe environment for law-abiding families. The housing project is an opportunity to form an extended family that is self-sufficient, with rules that can evict men who introduce weaponry into the community. Also, residents could be advised to limit the number of offspring with whom they share an apartment or residence and learn to cultivate a natural environment where open space is cultivated and not covered with useless toys. Children learn more about living if they know how to care for other forms of life, such growing and cultivating flowers and edible plants. Swings and roundabouts only have a ten-second stimulation (like shooting a gun) that is useless in a community.
3
I don't think so, Bayou.
Every New Yorker with eyes to see knows that drug dealers use kids as young as nine years old to run drugs. I used to see a guy hanging out in his car in front of a nearby apartment house at 3:15 waiting for his "boys" to come home from school. He'd either let them into his car or go with them into the apartment building, and then they'd be running in all directions. They'd go into people's yards. Sometimes neighbors would find drug bags beneath shrubs. Or knives.
The guy was, I think, caught and convicted of drug dealing. Anyway, he disappeared.
As far as I'm concerned, any man who uses kids to run drugs should be put away forever.
What's going on? Bad nature and bad nurture. Other blacks get out and do well, or if they can't manage to leave the projects, they go to work, live honorably, and feel only disgust for the dealers.
Every New Yorker with eyes to see knows that drug dealers use kids as young as nine years old to run drugs. I used to see a guy hanging out in his car in front of a nearby apartment house at 3:15 waiting for his "boys" to come home from school. He'd either let them into his car or go with them into the apartment building, and then they'd be running in all directions. They'd go into people's yards. Sometimes neighbors would find drug bags beneath shrubs. Or knives.
The guy was, I think, caught and convicted of drug dealing. Anyway, he disappeared.
As far as I'm concerned, any man who uses kids to run drugs should be put away forever.
What's going on? Bad nature and bad nurture. Other blacks get out and do well, or if they can't manage to leave the projects, they go to work, live honorably, and feel only disgust for the dealers.
8
B: There was a time when police lived next door to potential victims, knew them and their children, attended their churches, and were involved in public schools together. But when police live outside the communities that they police, as they do today, they do not have the daily intelligence on how children change in their social behavior, nor do police have intelligence on changes in places like Brooklyn's neighborhood family life. Something as hardly connected to drug violence as a change or reduction in public transportation schedule, regular night hangouts of a park wino or junkie, a regular loud party location, fighting at parties, or in a park,busy cash checking shops,youth congregation in parks at odd hours, rare taxi service, etc. could indicate associated influx of youthful drug gangs & concomitant resident vulnerability to violence. Police have to live among residents to learn early signs of potential criminal gang activity. Many know all this from direct experience. When police are neighbors, neighbors are usually safe.
2
This story is an example of the complex problems of inner city black neighoborhoods described in Jill Leovy's book "Ghettoside", about murders in South Central Los Angeles, one of the most dangerous of LA neighborhoods. Leovy's principal point with her book, which could be made here, is that problems like these occur because these neighborhoods have too little law enforcement presence, and the rule of law has broken down, so that a "shadow law" created by gangs, a law of retribution and gang intimidation, is the prevailing law of the region.
One of the results of this "law" is that people who witnessed a murder do not speak out, because to do so would put their lives at risk. Yes, of course they could call in on an anonymous tip line and say what happened...but the problem is not that the police don't know who did it. In South Central, "Everybody knows" was the refrain whenever a murder went down. Everyone knew who did it, but almost no one was willing to risk going to court to testify...and that's what it takes to convict a murderer. Not just calling in on a tip line, but testifying on the witness stand. And if you have no one willing to do that, you have no case.
What's needed most is to break down the power of the gangs. And to do that, heavy police presence will be needed. Maybe even tools like curfews. People need to decide what they want -- saving lives, or unhealthy tribal loyalty to "my community" which in essence is loyalty to a cadre of criminals.
One of the results of this "law" is that people who witnessed a murder do not speak out, because to do so would put their lives at risk. Yes, of course they could call in on an anonymous tip line and say what happened...but the problem is not that the police don't know who did it. In South Central, "Everybody knows" was the refrain whenever a murder went down. Everyone knew who did it, but almost no one was willing to risk going to court to testify...and that's what it takes to convict a murderer. Not just calling in on a tip line, but testifying on the witness stand. And if you have no one willing to do that, you have no case.
What's needed most is to break down the power of the gangs. And to do that, heavy police presence will be needed. Maybe even tools like curfews. People need to decide what they want -- saving lives, or unhealthy tribal loyalty to "my community" which in essence is loyalty to a cadre of criminals.
152
"What's needed most is to break down the power of the gangs. And to do that, heavy police presence will be needed. Maybe even tools like curfews."
Try that, and the marchers -- and rioters, looters -- will be on the streets in the thousands, protesting oppression by The Man.
Some have suggested "community policing." Start out with community involvement in the existing policing. Anonymous tips would be a starter, but apparently the establishment isn't offering enough money. Really? Residents have to bribed to contribute to their own safety?
No, I'm not ignoring the potential for reprisal if the identity of a tipster is discovered. But more police won't make a difference, except possibly to inflame tensions among those who view the police as oppressors. The drug gang members will always far outnumber the police.
Try that, and the marchers -- and rioters, looters -- will be on the streets in the thousands, protesting oppression by The Man.
Some have suggested "community policing." Start out with community involvement in the existing policing. Anonymous tips would be a starter, but apparently the establishment isn't offering enough money. Really? Residents have to bribed to contribute to their own safety?
No, I'm not ignoring the potential for reprisal if the identity of a tipster is discovered. But more police won't make a difference, except possibly to inflame tensions among those who view the police as oppressors. The drug gang members will always far outnumber the police.
9
Heavy police presence?! What if somebody gets shot? Only then will the protests and outrage commence.
1
I'd think as long as these neighborhoods protect the drug dealers, gangs, and thugs, and refuse to help the police, then the murders will continue. And this is why not much attention is paid to these murders, and why people outside the neighborhoods involved do not particularly care about them. The murders are seen as protected and accepted by the community, so this is just how life is over there, and wise people stay away from these places.
And I'm sorry, but that's my reaction too. A mother getting gunned down for no reason is horrible, but the entire neighborhood refusing to do anything about apprehending her killer makes me write off the lot of them. They're choosing this, and it appalls me, and I can't sympathize with their choice or their self-inflicted murder rate.
And I'm sorry, but that's my reaction too. A mother getting gunned down for no reason is horrible, but the entire neighborhood refusing to do anything about apprehending her killer makes me write off the lot of them. They're choosing this, and it appalls me, and I can't sympathize with their choice or their self-inflicted murder rate.
60
How sad that you are unable to empathize with the fear experienced by people in these communities. You might want to ask yourself how you would act, or react, had you observed a drug gang murder - would you truly endanger your life, or the lives of your children, to be a witness for the state? We all would like to think we would, but when conjecture becomes reality, people often react much differently than they think they might.
7
Dear Rhonda Thissen,
I have trouble empathizing with people who are complicit in their own problems, although I know the problems of these neighborhoods are not entirely brought about by the people living in them.
Had I observed a drug gang member I would either call the police or take matters into my own hands and eliminate the murderer. I know this because I have reported crimes to the police before, and I have intervened in violence to put a stop to it. But this is easy for me, I guess, as I don't give in to fear.
I have trouble empathizing with people who are complicit in their own problems, although I know the problems of these neighborhoods are not entirely brought about by the people living in them.
Had I observed a drug gang member I would either call the police or take matters into my own hands and eliminate the murderer. I know this because I have reported crimes to the police before, and I have intervened in violence to put a stop to it. But this is easy for me, I guess, as I don't give in to fear.
7
I probably would choose not to have children, if I were stuck in the projects. How you justify bringing three kids into that world?
6
These murders are properly named Ghettosides. That they are seldom solved is a political disgrace....and I am not a progressive liberal.
6
How are the police to solve them if the community won't give up the murderers? It is a disgrace, on the communities who continue to collude and cover-up for the criminals in their own community. People are too scared to come forward, but the police do have tip lines, which can be called anonymously. Without community support and involvement, the police have hands tied.
30
My heart goes out to this family. No one should have to live like this. But a number of "activists" who came to these neighborhoods in the wake of Ferguson complained that the area was "over-policed". You can't have it both ways.
13
Giving a meaningful tip anonymously doesn't mean that is the end of your involvement. If you give a tip, for instance, that you overheard someone bragging about the murder, you would still have to testify. Prior to that, the alleged murderer would learn about the evidence (i.e. witness accounts) against him. If they realized that the only one who possibly could have known the details was you, they can easily get a fellow gang member to find and eliminate you. The only way to protect you would be 1) round-the-clock protection or 2) witness relocation. Police, with limited resources, can't always provide this.
2
This past summer a man was shot in a city park during a party. more than 16 shots fired people scambled the man was murdered. Three to four lines the next day buried in the News Paper. The victim was a black man. No wonder the black community feel the way they do. Sorry to say but if you are white and a victiom of a crime chances are more attention will be paid to it.
10
Not true, the reason the story didn't make the news is black murder crimes seems to happen many times a day and they are only 16% of the population.
Young black men crate their own problem by not wanting education, instead wants to be cool and wants overnight success without earning it. You are trying to blame us from their problem, we didn't give them the guns or tell them to shoot each other. Stop blaming others, take on some responsibility.
Young black men crate their own problem by not wanting education, instead wants to be cool and wants overnight success without earning it. You are trying to blame us from their problem, we didn't give them the guns or tell them to shoot each other. Stop blaming others, take on some responsibility.
24
@frank monaco - maybe you need to stop reading the NYT, Both of the City's tabloids cover all the shootings.
10
but if you are white and a victiom of a crime chances are more attention will be paid to it.
Probably because chances are people will cooperate in an attempt to solve the crime.
Probably because chances are people will cooperate in an attempt to solve the crime.
4
How many police would be required to prevent a murder such as this one?
Suppose there were twice as many police...five times as many...ten times.
Would there still be events such as this?
Certainly, police don stop murderers, they lock them up after the deed is done.
Ragging on the police is just noise.
Suppose there were twice as many police...five times as many...ten times.
Would there still be events such as this?
Certainly, police don stop murderers, they lock them up after the deed is done.
Ragging on the police is just noise.
26
Thanks to the Times for this article that challenges the conventional narrative involving these killings.
The American cult of the self, a culture of radical individualism, prevents us from seeing the 'other,' or the difficult idea that we all have some portion of responsibility for this nation and its problems.
We live in a nation that enshrines the right to say anything and believe anything--and backs both of those notions up with the right to own weapons. What could wrong with that?
And we wrote all of these words to preserve our "freedoms," especially the freedom to own other people.
The American cult of the self, a culture of radical individualism, prevents us from seeing the 'other,' or the difficult idea that we all have some portion of responsibility for this nation and its problems.
We live in a nation that enshrines the right to say anything and believe anything--and backs both of those notions up with the right to own weapons. What could wrong with that?
And we wrote all of these words to preserve our "freedoms," especially the freedom to own other people.
16
Sir, your impregnable bubble is so utterly disconnected from the reality that you cannot even conceive that this is a micro problem in a community and not a macro issue with the construct of our country.
10
Italians brought their mafia culture to America, and the "snitch" penalty is just one of many evil manifestations of the mafia's sharia laws.
13
Italians were reviled and discriminated against in the early 20th century and so they enterprised and protected their own until things changed. Lotalty was prized and family was sacrosanct.
8
@Cyclone
While discrimination against Italian immigrants likely led to an insular world view, it seems more likely that Italian immigrants brought with them a social culture which can be traced to ancient Rome.
The social and cultural values of mos maiorum ("ancestral custom"), the patrocinium or patronage system of patrons and clients, along with the pater familias (deference to the male head of the family as authority figure) really set the stage for the contemporary mafia -- a conservative world view deferential to the past, a system of patrons and clients and viewing a senior male family member as the apex of authority all contribute to the structure and durability of mafia organizations.
These aren't new social structures learned as a result of discrimination, they're the basis of social culture directly traceable to the Roman era. While discrimination would tend to discourage deviation from them, they weren't invented by immigrants once they got to the United States.
While discrimination against Italian immigrants likely led to an insular world view, it seems more likely that Italian immigrants brought with them a social culture which can be traced to ancient Rome.
The social and cultural values of mos maiorum ("ancestral custom"), the patrocinium or patronage system of patrons and clients, along with the pater familias (deference to the male head of the family as authority figure) really set the stage for the contemporary mafia -- a conservative world view deferential to the past, a system of patrons and clients and viewing a senior male family member as the apex of authority all contribute to the structure and durability of mafia organizations.
These aren't new social structures learned as a result of discrimination, they're the basis of social culture directly traceable to the Roman era. While discrimination would tend to discourage deviation from them, they weren't invented by immigrants once they got to the United States.
7
Mob, that is a stretch indeed laying the origins of this historically ubiquitous human behavior on the Italian people.
1
It's revealing that the residents chief complaint is that this violence is due to racism because the city doesn't provide them with enough security. No mention of their responsibility to cooperate with the police. Very sad.
86
And what of their responsibility to themselves or their families? It is easy to blame people for not wanting to be witnesses, but please try to see the situation from their position. Witness intimidation and retribution killings are terrifying prospects, especially for people too poor to move to another neighborhood. On TV and in the movies, witnesses who are in danger go into Witness Protection. But in the real world, you get a police escort to court and back home where everyone knows you were in court testifying against so and so. The poor detectives don't even have the resources to fully investigate the crime, let alone protect potential witnesses.
And ultimately, the focus should be more on crime prevention, because once a crime is committed there is a ticking clock on the amount of time and attention investigators can put into catching the perps before another crime happens that they have to deal with.
It is every easy to sit in judgement of these peoples lives and hardships when you live in affluent community with little crime. And that is not a jibe against you personally, although accurate given what I know about Westfield, NJ. I grew up in the South Bronx and now I live in a much nicer, safer neighborhood in Queens. Stories like this make me feel sad and a bit guilty, but mostly grateful that I got out.
And ultimately, the focus should be more on crime prevention, because once a crime is committed there is a ticking clock on the amount of time and attention investigators can put into catching the perps before another crime happens that they have to deal with.
It is every easy to sit in judgement of these peoples lives and hardships when you live in affluent community with little crime. And that is not a jibe against you personally, although accurate given what I know about Westfield, NJ. I grew up in the South Bronx and now I live in a much nicer, safer neighborhood in Queens. Stories like this make me feel sad and a bit guilty, but mostly grateful that I got out.
32
their responsibility
Surely you jest! The concept is anathema in these areas.
Surely you jest! The concept is anathema in these areas.
3
From the safety of a peaceful middle class neighborhood, it is easy to excoriate the residents of the projects for not assisting the police. I wonder how many of these commenters would have the courage to talk to the police if they knew that doing so could easily lead to them, or a member of their family, becoming the next murder victim. The gangs in these neighborhoods deal in fear and intimidation as much as they do in drugs.
61
They can't call an anonymous tip line?
16
Well Alex, for my part, if I lived in those projects I'd get myself a gun too, and take care of the gang members myself. But then, I'm not a coward, and have no interest in trying to live forever.
4
Anonymous tips don't put people in prison. Actual court testimony does.
4
This festering mess of violence and pain has been kept in some check by police officers who put their own life on the line everyday. With this ever increasing chaos and lack of funding police are becoming overwhelmed and now almost vilified for the dangerous work they do. Black Lives Matter is a hollow sham rampant with posers and blamers. What have they done to out the gangs and gang members? What have they done to organize block patrols and security to help the very people they profess to represent? Nothing!
41
And you know this how, exactly?
6
This is about the murder of a mother protecting her kids, unlike Mr. Brown or Mr. McDonald who were criminals out causing trouble, where's BLM or any of the angry protesters who cares about black lives? How can anyone take BLM serious when all they do is trying to create race trouble and gain a upper hand in political stands.
78
It is much easier to "protest" than actually doing the work required of change.
13
I am in tears reading this heartbreaking account. This poor young woman and those children. Aside from all of the larger issues, which are so important, I hope against hope that the grandmother can get them all out of there and to a safer neighborhood. I won't forget you and how you tried to protect your children Jessica White.
14
What is Mayor de Blasio doing for this woman? At least Mayor Giuliani tried to help her with stop-and-frisk. (He always says it's the mothers who asked for it.) De Blasio, on the other hand, made a big splash with ending stop-and-frisk but where is he now?
Too many grandstanders are only around when there's a race card to play. The problem for these poor residents is there is no race card involved. How utterly hopeless for them.
Too many grandstanders are only around when there's a race card to play. The problem for these poor residents is there is no race card involved. How utterly hopeless for them.
9
Are we reading a retro piece from the 60's? How sad that so much still is so broken.
And then we read this, "With weariness more than anger, she said that the government skimps on public safety for black families like hers." The weariness is shared in and out of the projects. Could the government do more? Probably, but the NYPD, despite some of the rhetoric of groups like BLM, is not an occupying army, and cannot station officers in every hall or walkway or playground. At some point (long past) the residents must take account of themselves families and friends, look in the mirror and realize how much their own silence, attitudes and willingness to believe that racism is always the cause and effect of every single thing in their lives.
Fear of speaking up is understandable in some cases, yet anonymity is readily available. And those in the community who are quick to leap at perceived injustice by the police and others are the ones best suited to help their own people get past the situations that lead to these tragedies.
And then we read this, "With weariness more than anger, she said that the government skimps on public safety for black families like hers." The weariness is shared in and out of the projects. Could the government do more? Probably, but the NYPD, despite some of the rhetoric of groups like BLM, is not an occupying army, and cannot station officers in every hall or walkway or playground. At some point (long past) the residents must take account of themselves families and friends, look in the mirror and realize how much their own silence, attitudes and willingness to believe that racism is always the cause and effect of every single thing in their lives.
Fear of speaking up is understandable in some cases, yet anonymity is readily available. And those in the community who are quick to leap at perceived injustice by the police and others are the ones best suited to help their own people get past the situations that lead to these tragedies.
35
Recalling the Kitty Genovese killing in a courtyard as neighbors watched from their windows and did nothing -not even a call to 911. She was white; the building was not in a gang ridden project. So let's not limit observations to race and poverty. There's a dark side to human nature that is suppressed by society and education that most of these gang members never got.
Where are these Conservatives who fight for the survival of unborn fetuses, even those of rape and incest? Why don't they care about every human life once it is born? Ironically, they want nothing to do with this part of the population, these gang members, who might have been aborted by their poor, addicted mothers had they been offered a choice by the hypocritical pious. (No federal funding where abortions are performed).
Where are these Conservatives who fight for the survival of unborn fetuses, even those of rape and incest? Why don't they care about every human life once it is born? Ironically, they want nothing to do with this part of the population, these gang members, who might have been aborted by their poor, addicted mothers had they been offered a choice by the hypocritical pious. (No federal funding where abortions are performed).
9
That's quite the extrapolation..."these gang members, who might have been aborted"
These are the same gang members when killed by the police...these same people take to the streets and march/riot???
These are the same gang members when killed by the police...these same people take to the streets and march/riot???
12
The Kitty Genovese narrative has been debunked. The police WERE called, twice. This very paper reported on it. Her killer recently died in prison.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/05/nyregion/winston-moseley-81-killer-of-...
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/05/nyregion/winston-moseley-81-killer-of-...
10
Sure......then we could have giant arguments, and perhaps then vote, about who should be aborted so they cannot become criminals. I wonder who would want to win THOSE elections????? Where is George Orwell when you need him??
2
I agree that with the "police" shootings and confrontations, video footage seems to appear out of nowhere.
Perhaps a positive thing to do is to provide each neighborhood with a 100 cell phones with decent camera apps and a free yearly phone account for volunteers along the line of neighborhood watches. As long as the cameras are decent, they should be able to record strangers in the neighborhood and cars from a distance. From a distance.
It could supplement the other surveillance equipment. Yeah it may result in a lot of footage but the residents have a better idea of who poses a danger to them including some low level dealer rolling "blunts" and strangers. And instead of officers wandering around the crime scene looking for evidence, they can go through the videos.
Just an idea because these neighborhoods need to be empowered and that is difficult when the criminals are shooters with guns and no hesitation to use them.
Maybe instead of stop and frisk, they need to do stop and video...
Perhaps a positive thing to do is to provide each neighborhood with a 100 cell phones with decent camera apps and a free yearly phone account for volunteers along the line of neighborhood watches. As long as the cameras are decent, they should be able to record strangers in the neighborhood and cars from a distance. From a distance.
It could supplement the other surveillance equipment. Yeah it may result in a lot of footage but the residents have a better idea of who poses a danger to them including some low level dealer rolling "blunts" and strangers. And instead of officers wandering around the crime scene looking for evidence, they can go through the videos.
Just an idea because these neighborhoods need to be empowered and that is difficult when the criminals are shooters with guns and no hesitation to use them.
Maybe instead of stop and frisk, they need to do stop and video...
11
I recommend that you watch the Wire, which details a similar attempt to film violence and crime on surveillance camera. Episode 7 of Seasons 4 "Unto Others" illustrates a cop camera being stolen by the subject (a specific gang) or target of its surveillance. Gangs often know as much - if not more - about the going ons in their territory. An effort to roll out new surveillance or cell phones in a housing project would likely be pre-empted or hijacked by the gangs themselves.
Saw the Wire, twice. I understand how gangs work according to that piece of fiction, or fictionalized reality. The one in this story is nowhere near as omni prescent or clever as in the Wire. This gang(membr) keeps shooting the wrong people...
Most importantly; a lot of time has passed since the Wire; it is not unusual now even in poor neighborhoods for just about everyone to possess a phone, unlike back then, and to have 100 phones per neighborhood, much better background footage than a few primitive surveillance cameras on businesses.
So I guess I think it is still a workable idea that should be at least discussed... Screened and trained neighborhood watch, networking to protect themselves and their children and working with the police to try and make their neighborhoods just a little safer...
Most importantly; a lot of time has passed since the Wire; it is not unusual now even in poor neighborhoods for just about everyone to possess a phone, unlike back then, and to have 100 phones per neighborhood, much better background footage than a few primitive surveillance cameras on businesses.
So I guess I think it is still a workable idea that should be at least discussed... Screened and trained neighborhood watch, networking to protect themselves and their children and working with the police to try and make their neighborhoods just a little safer...
3
Maybe Obama can make a statement on this incident.
No?
No?
30
Stop and frisk could make our public housing safe for law-abiding tenants. But that would mean that the sons and "fiancees" of the women who receive the public housing would be arrested and imprisoned, and not be able to engage in the criminal activitiy that brings money into the household.
53
Is there any evidence that a higher tip award leads to more arrests? Like the anonymous resident interviewed in the article, I suspect that someone willing to risk retribution for talking to the police is going to be motivated by something other than money--although, as the resident says, an award would be a 'bonus,' especially for someone struggle to pay the bills.
The real problem with the gap between the awards offered in the cases of Ms. White and Ms. Vetrano is that they so clearly signal how much the government values each woman's life. Sometimes higher tip rewards are the result of private contributions, but that wasn't even the case here. The minimal tip award for the killing of Ms. White is of a piece with the chronic underfunding of community policing and detective work in the South Bronx, which should shame anyone involved in budgeting decisions in this city.
The real problem with the gap between the awards offered in the cases of Ms. White and Ms. Vetrano is that they so clearly signal how much the government values each woman's life. Sometimes higher tip rewards are the result of private contributions, but that wasn't even the case here. The minimal tip award for the killing of Ms. White is of a piece with the chronic underfunding of community policing and detective work in the South Bronx, which should shame anyone involved in budgeting decisions in this city.
43
If the reward was enough to move to another community - one where the "snitch" and his/her kids would be far away from those connected to the perpetrator, then yes, I think people would be more likely to share information. $2K certainly isn't worth risking a life, and it's also certainly not enough to enable a move into a safer area. Now, $25,000...$50,000...$100,000? That could create a lot of opportunity for a family to start anew in a much safer environment, and in the end could also result in a lot of helpful information being shared.
2
I agree with most of what you say, but a higher extrinsic reward would be better motivation for those who do not already see an intrinsic reward in coming forward.
The city and the NYPD do not rule the streets of the inner city - at best they are an occupying force. Most of these shootings involve street justice enforcing the rules among drug dealers. Why would anyone risk talking to the cops?
5
This story is heart breaking. The problem is that societies can break down very quickly. Violence and criminality in even a small percentage of a population - one in a hundred, or 1% - can accelerate the breakdown of a community. On any given day in a city like New York, the average person encounters several thousand people. If even 1% of those people are likely to render violence on others, law and order becomes compromised because the statistical likelihood of suffering from violence becomes sufficiently high that people register it at a conscious level. It appears that the community mentioned in the article suffers from a level of violent criminality in its population that is higher than 1%. Unfortunately, the only solution that is likely to work over the long term is community action against the minority of criminals. A community that needs an increase in reward money to provide information about the killer of an innocent young woman needs community action to better counter the impact of the criminals.
5
Many, many more times blacks are murdered by other blacks than the police. Yet black "activiists" launch not a single protest, a single condemnation despite the fact this is clearly a much, much more serous threat to the black community. Where are the black community leaders?
It seems so much easier to play the racial card and just blame whites. Disgraceful.
It seems so much easier to play the racial card and just blame whites. Disgraceful.
41
Before you make assumptions about there being no protests or condemnations from the black community about this type of murder, I suggest you spend some time in a black church, or even a black community, and educate yourself, because you're wrong. This type of discussion, protest and mourning goes on a lot. It even makes the local news. o.O
5
Rhonda: Calling "Amen!" at a church rally is far different from marching publicly by the hundreds, thousands. When the "protesters" -- aka rioters and looters -- stage a BLM event, the police they protest protect them. Wonder who they would need protection from, and by whom, if the signs read, "No More Drug Dealers"?
14
A tragedy! And why are little kids in a playground at 10 PM?!!!
11
Because it was too hot inside.
4
Messers. Mueller and Baker claim that not enough money is being spent by police, few police are available, and those that are are overworked. The implication is that more money spent on police would solve these problems.
Wouldn't more police just lead to more confrontations and charges of bias, racism, aggression, "loss of dignity", etc.?
There has been much deserved focus on police, but it's time to also focus on the African-American relationship with police. The writers mention that young men complain about "police harassment" while tenants are thankful for their presence. Stop-and-frisk was initiated because mothers pleaded for their children's safety. It was then turned into an act of aggression.
African-Americans are going to have to decide whether they want law enforcement involved or not. If not, they will remain unprotected. If they do, they will have to come to terms with what it means to have police in their day-to-day lives looking for violent offenders. That's not always pretty. The presence of violent offenders makes policing look very different from how it looks in low crime areas.
Wouldn't more police just lead to more confrontations and charges of bias, racism, aggression, "loss of dignity", etc.?
There has been much deserved focus on police, but it's time to also focus on the African-American relationship with police. The writers mention that young men complain about "police harassment" while tenants are thankful for their presence. Stop-and-frisk was initiated because mothers pleaded for their children's safety. It was then turned into an act of aggression.
African-Americans are going to have to decide whether they want law enforcement involved or not. If not, they will remain unprotected. If they do, they will have to come to terms with what it means to have police in their day-to-day lives looking for violent offenders. That's not always pretty. The presence of violent offenders makes policing look very different from how it looks in low crime areas.
37
The root problem is lack of upward mobility. Here there is a never ending cycle of drugs and violence. People living generation after generation in public housing, where violence is a way of life. Allowing criminals to stay and live within these developments only fosters more crime. The true narrative is that much of the crime is self-generated, meaning that people who reside within that complex commit crimes to adjoining complexes and so on. The solution is to be vigilant within these projects and remove persons who are found guilty of crime. Don't allow drug crews to foster. I know it sounds harsh, but there is little else that can be done. Anyone being killed in the middle of a playground should immediately cause outrage, but, truth be told, no one cares because outrage about violence in poor neighborhoods will never generate votes or news coverage so the Mayor, "Activists", BLM, the community and the police truly aren't that concerned.
8
Raise the reward to equal what they offer for white people. Spend equal money to but in security cameras just as they did for white people at Howard Beach. Why does no one come forward? How about that they weigh the insulting reward against the risk to their own lives and the anger and weariness they feel for their constant fight against hopelessness. The woman who was killed was a loving mother. Why is that worth so much less than a white jogger? For those who say money shouldn't matter... Take a look at our society and the world and tell me again that money doesn't matter.
9
Raise the reward to equal what they offer for white people
When the people in these areas overcome their prejudice about behaving Caucasian, and begin cooperating with the authorities, then your suggestion might make sense.
When the people in these areas overcome their prejudice about behaving Caucasian, and begin cooperating with the authorities, then your suggestion might make sense.
2
The good denizens of these projects know all too well the risks you take in offering information to the police. On top of that, from what many of the residents are suggesting, there is a serious dearth of security at these residences. So, there's no police protection for possible witnesses to come forward, even if they wanted to. Hence, "snitches get stitches"; or more likely far worse. It's no way to live, for anyone. Maddening and saddening.
10
Why is the story concentrated around a reward, no matter the amount?! The biggest issue is that they know who it is and refuse to speak. The fault lies not with the police, but with the people in the neighborhood who refuse to assist in making their neighborhood safer to get a killer/s off the street.
20
Would you put your family at risk to turn in the shooter? Not sure I could.
6
Typical comment by the overwhelming majority of academics and intellectuals who know NOTHING about the harsh realities of life, except what they read, see, and hear, from people like themselves.
6
F6D, I'm an intellectual that grew up in Mount Vernon, NY. I know all about the harsh realities because I lived them. Hence, the reason I know that it's worse to hide your head in the sand and should instead do what each person can to make your community better. An anonymous call naming the killer is the least that could be done.
5
The city tries to do the right thing by providing subsidized housing and welfare for people living in poverty, but it stops short. There are unimaginable scads of money in this town, with its $100 million apartments. Tax the 1% heavily - they won't miss it - and give families living in public housing a civilized place to live with some ownership incentive, a reason to work.
Instead, Trump writes off a billion dollars in losses, lives like a king, and we all mourn catastrophic projects ruled by drug dealers.
Instead, Trump writes off a billion dollars in losses, lives like a king, and we all mourn catastrophic projects ruled by drug dealers.
12
"Tax the 1% heavily - they won't miss it - and give families living in public housing a civilized place to live with some ownership incentive, a reason to work"
Of course the "progressives" would love to tax the "evil" 1% so that they could use the money to buy the votes of the urban underclass for the democrats with even more "free stuff".
Of course the "progressives" would love to tax the "evil" 1% so that they could use the money to buy the votes of the urban underclass for the democrats with even more "free stuff".
10
This possibly could be a case where not many of the resident locals of this housing project know the specifics of the murder. Any conspiracy to have an individual killed I'm sure is done is as much secrecy as possible. The photo is vague and typical of killers in the inner city (hooded). The best hope I think is that somewhere down the line an arrest occurs where the individual arrested will sing; with murder having no statue of limitation somebody facing hard time may have information pertinent to this case.
3
The biggest issue here is policing. Many people from these areas won't come forward with information because the police will not protect them afterwards. So what's the point when coming forward will only create problems for you and your family? It sounds cruel, but this is the reality.
Lets keep blaming the victims and turn a blind eye to the conditions that makes them victims.
Lets keep blaming the victims and turn a blind eye to the conditions that makes them victims.
6
Let's stop paying for this lifestyle. Would be a lot less violence if people were tired from working and had to get up early the next day for work-- like the rest of us.
14
You're making quite a few assumptions based on racist stereotypes, but ok.
2
Lets keep blaming the victims and turn a blind eye to the conditions that makes them victims.
Many are infected with the malady of perpetual victim hood.
Many are infected with the malady of perpetual victim hood.
1
No more hoodies. They're like burkas, hiding who's underneath them -- and why? Who needs to wear a hoodie? If your head's cold, put on a cap.
No more hoodies.
No more hoodies.
17
I wear a hoodie myself now and then, it's a convenient type of light jacket. The problem is not the hoodie, the problem is the vast numbers of illegal guns, and the failed war on drugs. Legalize drugs and round up illegal guns, and these murders would drop in frequency.
6
I concur without retracting my former comment.
3
Very sad. But let's face it. The residents of these bad neighborhoods need to do some self-examination about the way they are raising their young men. No lasting resolution will work until the massive rate of family breakdown is addressed.
84
Less than one half of one percent of the black people murdered are killed by police. Approximately 90% of the black people murdered are killed by other black people. Police are not the problem....
118
These are *both* problems. One does not negate the other.
7
One is a bigger problem than the other.
10
Perhaps this killing and many others would not have happened if all drugs were legal. Many hundreds of thousands of men would not have their life ruined by going to prison. The war on drugs is a gross failure. Better to spend the money on helping addicts rather than on prisons, police and courts.
11
(Not Mark)You are so right.
2
"Tower lights" are not going to prevent murders. The notion that lighting equals safety and security is baseless. People get murdered in "broad daylight" routinely (news reports in the mid size southern city where I live always note that the homicide, attempted homicide, violent crime, or property crime occurred in "broad daylight" since this always seems shocking). People also get attacked and murdered in lighted areas at night--and in places with visible security cameras, as in this case. Poorly designed lighting can also contribute to crime---drawing attention to targets, encouraging gathering/activity in places or at times when it's not desirable, creating harsh contrast and deep shadows that conceal criminals, causing glare that impairs vision, etc. Perpetuating the myth that you are safe in lit areas and that lighting is a stand-alone safety measure encourages a false sense of security that leads people to put themselves in dangerous situations and let their guard.
7
Why has so little attention be given to this tragic story of violent death of a working mother in a playground in front of her children? It is an outrage. How has a taxpayer-supported apartment complex become a place where killers and other criminals freely operate and terrify decent residents into silence and resignation? 122 felonies in the last year and a half — how can that be tolerated in our city? It is time to return the development to the working people it was built to serve. Criminals should not be allowed to live in or trespass on the property and project managers must be held accountable for the safety of the residents. Taxpayer supported housing should be the safest, not a place of fear and hopelessness.
32
And now three taxpayer supported welfare children are orphans.
12
"Criminals should not be allowed to live in or trespass on the property and project managers must be held accountable for the safety of the residents.
How would you have these accomplished? Deputize and arm the managers, give them carte blanche to shoot on sight?
How would you have these accomplished? Deputize and arm the managers, give them carte blanche to shoot on sight?
2
So much for black lives matter. They seem to only matter if a police officer is the one pulling the trigger (justifiably or not).
78
If black lives mattered, more police resources would be allocated to crimes like this and areas like the 40th precinct. The team pursuing this case sounded pretty overwhelmed to me. 200 cases? nYPD has 30000 cops; why would this team have to take 200 cases?
Instead of making traffic stops and putting dope smokers in jail, police could be going after killers. But solving murders is slow frustrating work. Every minute the trail is colder. Instead they go after low hanging fruit and make the stats look better.
The public should demand that their police forces do more of this work & be judged on that.
NYC is much safer than it once was, and credit goes to NYPD for their work on that. But it would be nice if a life lost out in precinct 40 mattered as much as a life on the upper east side.
Instead of making traffic stops and putting dope smokers in jail, police could be going after killers. But solving murders is slow frustrating work. Every minute the trail is colder. Instead they go after low hanging fruit and make the stats look better.
The public should demand that their police forces do more of this work & be judged on that.
NYC is much safer than it once was, and credit goes to NYPD for their work on that. But it would be nice if a life lost out in precinct 40 mattered as much as a life on the upper east side.
4
MayrC
If the community cooperated with the police this murder would be solved. Stop blaming the police.
If the community cooperated with the police this murder would be solved. Stop blaming the police.
27
A policeman was not the shooter of Jessica White...
16
With all of our advancement in technology and social justice we still cannot cope with evil in our society. An ad for a luxury apt house in New York appeared in the middle of the article, and I cringed at how much money we have and little we do to help the people in the article. It would seem we might ask for the rich to help the poor. I'm not rich but I would contribute $25. for cause and I live in Alabama, not New York.
5
Do you really, actually believe that money could ever solve this problem???
8
would contribute $25
Every citizen of this country could donate $1,000.00 and it wouldn't make an ounce of difference. You can't legislate morality!
Every citizen of this country could donate $1,000.00 and it wouldn't make an ounce of difference. You can't legislate morality!
3
Completely senseless and reminds me of the stabbing murder at Cornell University of Anthony Nazaire the first week of this school year. On campus, the aftermath of a large party, a fight takes place with dozens of witnesses and Anthony was fatally stabbed. It is known that people even recorded the fight on their phones yet no witnesses came forward.
9
Does either side really care or is it just finger pointing.
3
Who are the 2 sides?
3
There are so many contradictions in this sad story.
A heavy police presence will likely elicit complaints from many in the community as heavy handed.
An innocent woman is shot out in the open, but the witnesses are justifiably terrified to come forward.
And yes, the lack of scrutiny from the media, the public (including BLM), and our elected leaders in comparison to another innocent woman murdered.
I don’t know the solution to any of these contradictions, but I do know that this woman, like any other, deserves justice. I hope she and her family get it eventually.
A heavy police presence will likely elicit complaints from many in the community as heavy handed.
An innocent woman is shot out in the open, but the witnesses are justifiably terrified to come forward.
And yes, the lack of scrutiny from the media, the public (including BLM), and our elected leaders in comparison to another innocent woman murdered.
I don’t know the solution to any of these contradictions, but I do know that this woman, like any other, deserves justice. I hope she and her family get it eventually.
12
The 2 Americas just a little distance apart. There should have been a photo of 725 5th Avenue juxtaposed with the John Adams Houses. The tragedies at one and the priviliges at the other.
4
The John Adams houses are about the same quality as other public housing in New York. Many people live comfortably in similar housing that isn't blighted by violent crime. Yes, some of the ultra rich have much nicer places, but many middle class (and even upper middle class) New Yorkers live in private housing that isn't much different quality wise. The difference is the level of crime.
12
Any clue as to if stop and frisk would have helped here in any sort of way?
8
I think these people have it right when they say this open case is about racism, and the consequences of racism. It's insidious and subtle. The Times did right to cover this case with depth and detail. When entire communities see less focus on victims from their communities, than on white victims elsewhere, the impact makes sense: "Why should we trust the police?" Why would they inform, when they know that they'll be living next door to the perpetrators and friends of the perpetrators for (possibly) decades to come? The safest immediate behavior is keep your head low and your mouth shut. They can't count on protection from the police. That's not even in question. Just in this article, you learn that a possible gunman AND the person who called the cops are hanging out together. And of course they are; it's a matter of survival. I don't know what the solutions are, but I DO know that this can't be put on the BLM movement for not fixing it. It can't be put on the cops or on this community. I starts with all of us who DON'T live in this situation to see that everyone who lives in this complex is struggling to keep their families safe, a roof over their heads, and (unlike many reading this) aware that the system that is supposed to protect them does not.
6
Right. It's always someone else's fault... The truth has a bitter taste...
26
There are several truisms that apply to the article:
1. Another life of an innocent get snuffed out.
2. The residents of the project are quick to blame the police "inaction."
3. Another young black male breaks out a gun to settle a beef.
4. No public outcry - someone says "snitch and your dead." Nice.
5. "Community leaders" don't bother to organize a march to protest.
6. The eternal cycle of violence continues.
The absolute apathy shown by the community confirms everyone's worst fears - while BLM, Sharpton, Charles Barron et al are all too ready to protest ANY shooting involving police - or just about all police actions - they're pretty mum on the epidemic of killings of blacks by blacks. This isn't some dark secret the community gets to sweep under the rug - but that's the choices being made.
On one hand I feel badly for any normal folks who have to put up with the homicidal fools who infest their neighborhoods. On the other I can't feel badly for good people keeping their mouths shut when a neighbor gets blasted - at what point does the black community take responsibility for their own?
1. Another life of an innocent get snuffed out.
2. The residents of the project are quick to blame the police "inaction."
3. Another young black male breaks out a gun to settle a beef.
4. No public outcry - someone says "snitch and your dead." Nice.
5. "Community leaders" don't bother to organize a march to protest.
6. The eternal cycle of violence continues.
The absolute apathy shown by the community confirms everyone's worst fears - while BLM, Sharpton, Charles Barron et al are all too ready to protest ANY shooting involving police - or just about all police actions - they're pretty mum on the epidemic of killings of blacks by blacks. This isn't some dark secret the community gets to sweep under the rug - but that's the choices being made.
On one hand I feel badly for any normal folks who have to put up with the homicidal fools who infest their neighborhoods. On the other I can't feel badly for good people keeping their mouths shut when a neighbor gets blasted - at what point does the black community take responsibility for their own?
290
How do you know that the perpetrator was black?
Hi, thank you for reading. I would note, though, that as the story says the community held marches, made speeches and packed meetings in response to the killing. Residents, local activists, elected leaders and police officials all expressed outrage at those events for what had happened.
32
"Absolute apathy"? I don't think you read the article very carefully. It's far easier just to blame victims.
Perhaps, if there were an equivalent to the Marshall Plan for neighborhoods such as this one, there would be a real change. Localities and federal interventions seem to nibble around the edges. Schools are still under par as are the living conditions. Job assistance to compete with the world of drugs is absent. Wouldn't legalizing drugs make a difference? Why are we so paralyzed in this way, when so many lives are at stake? I don't know how much help people who have something to offer are actually doing so in an organized way. What happened to the Million Man March and other movements like that? I am not a scholar or wealthy, but surely there must be a way to provide not only help but viable opportunities to plan a successful life.
68
Yes, more money, the standard liberal answer to anything. As if the the great society projects from 60s have not damaged these communities enough already.
11
"Perhaps, if there were an equivalent to the Marshall Plan for neighborhoods such as this one, there would be a real change. "
Perhaps you've heard of "The War On Poverty?" Trillions poured down a rathole. People, not poverty, cause these problems. It's possible to be poor and decent, but criminals are criminals no matter how much money you give them.
Perhaps you've heard of "The War On Poverty?" Trillions poured down a rathole. People, not poverty, cause these problems. It's possible to be poor and decent, but criminals are criminals no matter how much money you give them.
8
Yeah, we can't govern ourselves so we need to buy more government from the government to fill the gap. As long as we expect society and government to fix these problems, they will never be fixed. Only individuals determined to be responsible citizens will make any difference in this world.
2
Where's the outrage? The protests? This poor woman, protecting her children is gunned down in front of them... Fellow neighbors witness the killing at a local park, but no one steps forward.
Pathetic.
Pathetic.
238
Hi, thank you for reading. I would note, though, that as the story says the community held marches, made speeches and packed meetings in response to the killing. Residents, local activists, elected leaders and police officials all expressed outrage at those events for what had happened.
23
Benjamin: Yet no witness came forward -- or even called in an anonymous tip. "expressed outrage" -- but did nothing that would actually help track down the killer. Words are easy; actions have effect.
5
Worst of all, you know that gunman was visiting someone on the 12 floor of that apartment building. Someone on the 12tjh floor knows who that is! A murderer goes free because people do not have the courage to do the right thing and call the police. This has nothing to do with that $2,500 reward. Someone needs to come forward!
2
An unarmed black woman is gunned down in front of her children, and where is the outrage? Does there need to be videotaped documentation of killing for it to matter? Would the deceased's demise have mattered more had her end been precipitated by a scuffle with police? Must the slain be male for the media to point its lens in the direction of senseless death?
The neighbors did not cooperate with police investigators. They stated that "they were unaware there was any reward at all for tips" The reward is *not* the $22,000 offered through the tip line. The reward is knowing that you've done something to right a wrong. The reward is giving some sort of closure to the family and those little girls. Ms. White needs $200 to place a tombstone at her daughter's grave. Perhaps the community, together, can come up with that amount to help give peace to the family? Perhaps BLM could help in some way? Perhaps we can all ask, why do some lives matter more than others, and why, so often are those lives male?
The neighbors did not cooperate with police investigators. They stated that "they were unaware there was any reward at all for tips" The reward is *not* the $22,000 offered through the tip line. The reward is knowing that you've done something to right a wrong. The reward is giving some sort of closure to the family and those little girls. Ms. White needs $200 to place a tombstone at her daughter's grave. Perhaps the community, together, can come up with that amount to help give peace to the family? Perhaps BLM could help in some way? Perhaps we can all ask, why do some lives matter more than others, and why, so often are those lives male?
163
There is empirical evidence that murdered women get far more media and police attention then male victims. I have no idea why you think otherwise.
8
Sadly these communities bring these things on themselves.
No talking the police.
No marches.
No riots.
No al sharpton.
No push to end drugs and gun violence.
No talking to police about actual crimes.
To be fair, the police are hated for a reason and they shoulder some blame, as does the city. No lights? No constant police presence? No one monitoring the cameras always?
But the communities allow this. Lets be honest. Those on the playground all saw something heard something. Say something though? Nope.
No talking the police.
No marches.
No riots.
No al sharpton.
No push to end drugs and gun violence.
No talking to police about actual crimes.
To be fair, the police are hated for a reason and they shoulder some blame, as does the city. No lights? No constant police presence? No one monitoring the cameras always?
But the communities allow this. Lets be honest. Those on the playground all saw something heard something. Say something though? Nope.
72
Whoa. Victim blame much? And how did these "communities" come to be in the first place? Systemic racism perhaps?
6
Did you actually read the article? :" In the days that followed, at marches and speeches and basketball games in Ms. White’s memory"
The key word is "marches', which means there were at least two marches.
The key word is "marches', which means there were at least two marches.
5
"The communities allow this". Really? Do you for a second put yourself in their position? Say you were sitting there, you saw the shots and you saw a young man run away. Maybe you could even guess who the shooter was and knew he was with the Bloods or Crips or whatever gang. Now, knowing you and your kids live there and have no where else to go. What would you do knowing that the police are often ineffective in these situations. Speak up and leave your kids without a parent? Risk getting your kids shot with a bullet aimed at you? Say the shooter gets arrested and goes to trial are you going to testify in court while the assailant is backed by 20 gang members? what would you really do?
6
Thank you for shining a light on this. One question is how newspapers, as part of their public mission, can ensure that we all keep all victims equally front of mind.
9
More samples of the bankrupt ethos of no-snitching and yet another example that puts to lie what is chanted in the street protests.
94
I'm thankful the Times saw to it to shed light on this case. Maybe if someone from the area reads it, they will be moved to share information. Maybe someone with the means can help the family and raise funds for more reward money. Can this be made one of New York's most needy cases?
14
Had the shooter been a police officer, there would have been ten people recording the incident with their cell phones. It is sad there is no cooperation from the community.
309
They're scared. They have to appear in public in court to identify killers who are usually in gangs. It's easy to criticize if you're not living in a ghetto.
5
Their failure to cooperate, I suspect, has more to do with fear than with condoning the act. The police are hired, and paid, and carry the power of the state, to protect people. I think it's fair to hold them to a higher standard than that to which we hold gang members or innocent bystanders.
Having said that, we shouldn't tolerate this from gangs either. Better policing, and better relations between the police and the community, would make people feel safer, and would encourage greater cooperation with the police.
I don't mean to blame the officers doing their jobs and trying to get home after work. They are underfunded, understaffed, under-equipped, and they're being asked to do the jobs of social workers, drug counselors, traffic controllers, etc., in addition to just being cops. We need to make their jobs safer (better equipment, better community relations) and more rewarding. And if we want better policing, we need to put our money where our mouth is.
Having said that, we shouldn't tolerate this from gangs either. Better policing, and better relations between the police and the community, would make people feel safer, and would encourage greater cooperation with the police.
I don't mean to blame the officers doing their jobs and trying to get home after work. They are underfunded, understaffed, under-equipped, and they're being asked to do the jobs of social workers, drug counselors, traffic controllers, etc., in addition to just being cops. We need to make their jobs safer (better equipment, better community relations) and more rewarding. And if we want better policing, we need to put our money where our mouth is.
6
Nonsense to blame the community when they put their own lives and their families at risk testifying against murderers. Until police can truly protect them it seems futile to expect them to place themselves in such danger.
3
Black lives matter. The young man who committed this horrible crime is too typical of the young men in high-crime urban areas who cause the police to be defensive and, occasionally, too quick to pull the trigger. It's a problem with many layers and no easy solutions.
103
I don't know what to say, or offer a resolution. Everyone is to blame, and no one is to blame. Low income projects, human nature, violence. An endless cycle.
Very frustrating and very sad.
Very frustrating and very sad.
15
This is such an overwhelmingly sad account of life in this project, and deeply tragic tale of the stranglehold gangs exert over the inhabitants. Millions of words have been used in vane attempts at understanding the root causes and finding a solution, but so many of these residents appear to have criminal backgrounds and so little respect for the life of others. I wish I had a solution, but I don't. However, the blame for this dangerous situation lies at the feet of politicians, lack of parenting, societal malaise inured to the creeping violence and the police whose hands are tied by our laws and public sentiment. These gangs rule by fear and intimidation. It's no wonder no one speaks up as retribution would soon follow. Unfortunately, should the police had been involved and the gunman shot and killed, he would have been elevated to martyrdom.
46
Funny, how all of the activists are lauded as " brave & heroic" when they get in the face of the police, yet all of the bravery & heroism seem to disappear in situations such as this. Not a single sjw with an ounce of nerve.
2
The people in this story are well aware that someone will kill them if there is even a hint of cooperation with the police.
Live a day in their world before giving us a sermon from the Mount.
Live a day in their world before giving us a sermon from the Mount.
267
They could still give information anonymously.
9
Yes, the gangs have absolute control in the community. Oh, I misspoke, I meant the hood.
10
And that is why there are anonymous tips phone lines, email addresses, and web forms. Just point the police in the right direction.
27
If Black Lives Matter and their associates want to make themselves useful, they should be all over this. Single mom, trying to raise her kids, out in the playground on a warm night, who is black, gets murdered and the response is horribly underwhelming. The Times is absolutely correct to contrast this case with the terrible murder of the young woman in Howard Beach. What explains the difference? Black lives matter?
228
The response is underwhelming because the perpetrator was Black, not White. Black on Black crime is ubiquitous. White on Black crime is a story.
15
Heartbreaking story. We've been hearing about drive-by shooting and innocents being caught in the crosshairs for decades now, becoming immune to the situation. I live in an high-crime area, with plenty of drug activity. Thank you to the journalists for reminding me to not be so complacent.
30
How many more drug related murders are necessary for the USA to join the 'first world' regarding legalisation of all drugs. Legalisation is NOT to be confused with permissiveness, instead legalisation provides the habitual user with clean free and safe drugs that results in far less criminality by drug users to support their habit.
British Columbia has such a program in place for several years and results find 'druggies' rehabilitating to the point of entering the work force as reliable workers.
British Columbia has such a program in place for several years and results find 'druggies' rehabilitating to the point of entering the work force as reliable workers.
25
Well because in our case we'd have 50 million addicts. What are we supposed to do with all of them?
9
And yet there are more druggies in Vancouver than ever before. And more property crime. What British Columbia does very well is prevent people from buying guns. GUNS kill people more than drugs in every American city.
3
I am not understanding the references to the small reward amount for information. This is a neighborhood, with families that know each other. Why would someone need any money at all to give what information they have, particularly if it could be done anonymously, to help families in their own community?
NYPD officers risk their lives every day they patrol, and they don't earn much for putting their lives on the line.
Yes, drugs and poverty are complex problems. But the expectation of getting a cash reward to help your own neighborhood creates an environment that trivializes the power and effectiveness possible when people unite to help themselves.
When gang members unite they are very effective, action is swift, no one waits around for $2,500.
Families can unite to help their children in the same way. If you can't at least do that, and get information to those who can use it to help you without expecting money, what right do you have to say you live in a real community?
(And if you don't, and you are on your own and there is no real community to help you, either build one, or get a bus ticket for you and yours, to someplace safer).
NYPD officers risk their lives every day they patrol, and they don't earn much for putting their lives on the line.
Yes, drugs and poverty are complex problems. But the expectation of getting a cash reward to help your own neighborhood creates an environment that trivializes the power and effectiveness possible when people unite to help themselves.
When gang members unite they are very effective, action is swift, no one waits around for $2,500.
Families can unite to help their children in the same way. If you can't at least do that, and get information to those who can use it to help you without expecting money, what right do you have to say you live in a real community?
(And if you don't, and you are on your own and there is no real community to help you, either build one, or get a bus ticket for you and yours, to someplace safer).
99
You are totally right about the need for the community to come together and no doubt the people themselves will find a way to help one another. However, I wonder if you've ever lived in a place where there are bullies and groups who intimidate and threaten with fear of death. Anonymous tips probably have already been given. But the one who did this knows who knows he did it and if his name were given, he could go after that person. The killer knows who knows. That's what's so frightening for people there. Your solution is easier said than done.
7
if black community leaders had protests condemning this problem at the scale of BLM it might held mitigate it. Yet they refuse. Disgraceful.
7
It's "public safety" on a budget, and the perceived value of this particular life. It's revolting.
4
A tragic case in so many ways, but every murder is sad. I wonder, though, where is Black Lives Matters? Where are the community groups? Individually we are weak, but as a community, we have strength. In 1996, our next President spoke about how it takes a village. Curtis Sliwa started the Guardian Angels in 1979. Our country's history is replete with communities and groups taking the initiative. Maybe the community needs to organize and tell these young punks to move on - these are our homes, not theirs.
221
Yes. It is tragic. But do you really think BLM cares? BLM seeks an outlet to let out their own frustrations. They aren't interested in actually solving problems. If they were, they would focus effort on the 65% of homicides that are perpetrated by their own community members. But blaming your own racial community for your woes isn't an interesting story...
15
Right. A Black Lives Matter protest here would make great sense, unless I misunderstand the point of the BLM movement.
3
It takes a village? Why not just start with "It takes a family"?
12
My thoughts and prayers are with the families of gun violence victims. The words inspiring change all apply, and have all been said, yet sadly those changes have yet to happen.