American society is steeped in violence. Look at any drama on TV or in a movie, and you can count on the fingers of one hand the number that don't involve a gun at some point. We have also been involved in a war--somewhere--for more than two decades. We've grown up in a culture where a gun is seen as the solution, when it's more often the problem, whether it's carried by a civilian or a police officer. A gun is seen as the first go-to tool for any confrontation, when it should be the last.
2
Commenting on news reports is a fool's game. Half or more of the reporting is inaccurate. This fact is proven over and over when the facts do come out after the events are thoroughly vetted.
5
The rioters appear to be opportunists feeding off a black man's death to wreak havoc, destruction and theft. They would do well to remember:
Romans 12:19 New International Version
"Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
Romans 12:19 New International Version
"Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
6
Our nation has a gang violence problem. Its members wear blue or black, are armed with assault weapons, tasers and prosecutors, and draw a salary.
Can we even trust police officers with lethal force anymore? Maybe it's time to develop tech (besides tasers, which have their own problems) that subdues suspects without killing them. Plus critical thinking training to sense what is and is not a threat.
2
IF Mr. Scott exited his vehicle with a gun then he committed suicide. No rational person, of whatever color, in today's environment of fear and shootings of unarmed civilians, would be unaware of what's going to happen next IF they produce a weapon with the police in close proximity.
The local NC news accounts, as of this morning, appear to confirm Mr. Scott was armed. The Charlotte PD needs to move right quick to produce that weapon and any video of the shooting and/or Mr. Scott exiting his vehicle. This cannot wait for a lengthy investigation.
What I do know for certain is that the public no longer has faith in the police to investigate themselves, and justly so. Any officer-involved shooting requires an independent body, probably federal in nature. to investigate and report their findings to a prosecutor. We've reached the point where trust cannot possibly be restored without civilians, and police officers too, knowing that the truth, whatever it is, will not be suppressed or spun by local police departments.
That said, there are justifiable shootings and Mr. Scott's may be one but here is why we need body and dashboard cams. The recalcitrance of certain departments, including that of the PD here in Boston, is not a smart move - both as to civilian trust and to protect civilians and officers alike from having their lives ruined by a rush to judgment.
The local NC news accounts, as of this morning, appear to confirm Mr. Scott was armed. The Charlotte PD needs to move right quick to produce that weapon and any video of the shooting and/or Mr. Scott exiting his vehicle. This cannot wait for a lengthy investigation.
What I do know for certain is that the public no longer has faith in the police to investigate themselves, and justly so. Any officer-involved shooting requires an independent body, probably federal in nature. to investigate and report their findings to a prosecutor. We've reached the point where trust cannot possibly be restored without civilians, and police officers too, knowing that the truth, whatever it is, will not be suppressed or spun by local police departments.
That said, there are justifiable shootings and Mr. Scott's may be one but here is why we need body and dashboard cams. The recalcitrance of certain departments, including that of the PD here in Boston, is not a smart move - both as to civilian trust and to protect civilians and officers alike from having their lives ruined by a rush to judgment.
5
So, where is the body-cam video showing whether or not the victim had a weapon drawn? That would seem to settle things.
From the article "All CMPD patrol officers now have body cameras " in the Charlotte Observer, Sept 16, 2016:
"All Charlotte-Mecklenburg police patrol officers are now trained and equipped with body cameras, a CMPD spokesman confirmed Wednesday.
The body-worn cameras are in use through all 13 patrol divisions, spokesman Rob Tufano said. The final cameras were in place in about the last week."
From the article "All CMPD patrol officers now have body cameras " in the Charlotte Observer, Sept 16, 2016:
"All Charlotte-Mecklenburg police patrol officers are now trained and equipped with body cameras, a CMPD spokesman confirmed Wednesday.
The body-worn cameras are in use through all 13 patrol divisions, spokesman Rob Tufano said. The final cameras were in place in about the last week."
The Charlotte shooting involved a young black male officer. The Tulsa shooting involved a respected and experienced white female. Neither falls squarely into the stereotype of the hot headed racist white male who sticks together with his colleagues in times of trouble. Maybe, just maybe, police work is hard to consistently get right, particularly when decisions are difficult and have to be made at the drop of the hat. The media and the public have been quick to stereotype and have frequently gotten it wrong, to the harm of all of us. Snap judgments by people with influence reflect their own racism and should be widely criticized.
11
The video of Terence Crutcher being killed in Oklahoma is tantamount to murder. Keith Scott’s death is right in line with all the tragic killing of African American men. The virtual hatred that has been put forth by the Trump campaign just fuels this fire. He has given voice to the Neo-Nazi, Alt-Right movement of this country. Obama is hated by this fringe element because of the color of his skin. Hilary is not trust worthy because of her gender. Enough is enough.
2
At this point, my main concern is White silence and inaction. We have to use our voices and not allow this matter to blow out of proportion and lead to widespread civil unrest. It’s high time to get out of the comfort zone and push for speedy police reform. Our fellow Americans have not been comfortable since the day they set foot here, and in spite of that have fought and died for this country. It is moral malpractice to ignore the suffering of populations simply because you believe their troubles don’t apply to you. It only matters that they are human and hurting.
1
When the police in New Jersey captured the bomber alive after a "shootout", I understood that this is all about training. It is very important to catch a terrorist alive so he can be prosecuted, but it just seems less important to do the same when a black man is involved. Is it because police are less afraid of terrorists with guns than black men with guns? I just don't understand.
5
Well, I guess we know the answer to the often asked question, when will this end?
It won't. Even as police officers are being prosecuted (in very small numbers), the killings continue.
I would like to propose a few steps:
1) Police officers involved in killing unarmed suspects should be suspended without pay.
2) Police officers suspected of collaborating with the killers in fabricating a narrative should also be suspended without pay.
3) Investigations of police officers involved in killing unarmed suspects should be done by state police agencies, not the agency for whom the police officers work.
4) At the same time, police killings of unarmed people of color, regardless of the race of the shooter, should be investigated by the Department of Justice as hate crimes.
5) The Department of Justice should undertake a study of all police killings of unarmed people in the last ten years in an effort to identify common elements in these killings, with these findings factored in to hiring of police officers in the future. These could include race, age, gender, psychological issues, group memberships, where they live, etc.
It won't. Even as police officers are being prosecuted (in very small numbers), the killings continue.
I would like to propose a few steps:
1) Police officers involved in killing unarmed suspects should be suspended without pay.
2) Police officers suspected of collaborating with the killers in fabricating a narrative should also be suspended without pay.
3) Investigations of police officers involved in killing unarmed suspects should be done by state police agencies, not the agency for whom the police officers work.
4) At the same time, police killings of unarmed people of color, regardless of the race of the shooter, should be investigated by the Department of Justice as hate crimes.
5) The Department of Justice should undertake a study of all police killings of unarmed people in the last ten years in an effort to identify common elements in these killings, with these findings factored in to hiring of police officers in the future. These could include race, age, gender, psychological issues, group memberships, where they live, etc.
2
The police seem to do pretty well determining that white men armed with assault rifles do not pose threats, even when those armed white men are provocatively walking through black neighborhoods. The police in the South have been trained to contain "the black threat." It is time for the feds to take over policing of Southern cities while police departments are scrubbed clean of the racist ideologies upon which they were formed.
2
Get used to this. America's poor black communities are a total mess. The criminal elements are almost totally in control and they will be for the foreseeable future. The blue-collar work that once sustained these communities has been disappearing since the 1970s, and now the only kind employment available to large swaths of the population is crime and the drugs trade. Throw in this country's absurd reluctance to regulate firearms and you have a recipe for disaster. It's also a shame that the media continuing to fan the flames through sensationalist reporting instead of waiting for all the facts to become clear. In many of these famous shootings, after the initial hysteria, it later emerged that the police had justifiable reasons for discharging their weapons. I hate to see people die but the public needs to understand that if you don't obey an officer's commands they are allowed to fire their weapons at you. The alternative is a complete break down in law and order and the handing over of society to criminals. That kind of chaos will put someone like Trump or maybe even worse in the White House and it simply isn't worth it.
11
Do the police in America routinely shoot white men who are carrying guns? In Virginia, and a number of other states, the NRA (masquerading as Republican legislators) has passed laws almost requiring people to carry side arms. If the police are going to shoot people just because they have a gun, they should shoot white guys too. Maybe folks will start to think twice before they lug a pistol around with them everywhere.
4
According to Wikipedia, North Carolina is an open carry state, so even if Mr. Scott had a gun it apparently was legal for him to do so. But it seem that a black man with a gun is "an imminent deadly threat to the officers".
4
A small percentage of Americans commits a large percentage of violent crimes. That's a fact. Everyone is afraid of them, and with good reason, including their apologists, their victims and pandering politicians who sacrifice innocents to placate the mob. Time for all to face reality.
7
The confusing part for me is when the police say the suspect "had a gun." Well since there are about 300 million guns in the country and maybe 75 million people own them i'd say a lot of people encountered by the police have guns. If a police officer was pointing a weapon threateningly at me had I done nothing wrong, I would want to shoot him too expect the difference is i'd go to jail for the rest of my life and be labeled as a cop killer while he would have to push papers for a few months waiting for the justice department not to file charges. What about a case where a police officer was unlawfully pointing a weapon at someone who then killed the officer and was found to have acted in self defense? Yeah right. Give me liberty or give me death I guess.
1
So the cop who killed him was black? Keith L. Scott had a weapon … in a deadly threat to the cops? What kind of police forces does the BLM suggest best for a country? and the looting and destruction of private property, including black people property? Need a plasma TV? Just wait for someone black who got killed, be part of a protest and then go to nearest Walmart…Correct me if I’m wrong, but seems that a bunch of miserable anarchists who have planned it all wisely this time by putting the big, bad whites against the poor blacks by using power, position (actors, sportsmen, politicians, etc.) and of course the media machine, so the idea is to make a well-organized stratified society a real mess. I’ve heard a lot of sad stories about court hearings playing the “ethnic minorities” wild card to determine the cause for a final verdict. More recently a group of guys were playing basketball in a playground one Saturday afternoon in New York. One of them –a white guy- offered to give a hike to his black companion, but after shaking hands to say goodbye, five black men came up armed with two baseball bats, smashed the windshield and finally the white guy was severely injured and sent to a hospital. The reason? just for entering a “black neighborhood” Could you imagine if America goes back to White/Black/Chinese/Irish/German/neighborhoods with checkpoints to avoid people of other races’ entrance? The law must be applied with a blindfold regardless ethnicity, wealth or power.
7
Another sad case for the U.S. Justice Department to investigate. I wouldn't trust the Charoltte Police Department to conduct an investigation.
Even if Police stopped killing black people at a rate disproportionate to their population, they would still be killing a black person at least every other day on average. What this means is that as long as the media is excited about the "black man shot by police" narrative, we could hear about these shootings indefinitely.
I don't think the public interest is sustainable for that long. So, inevitably the news about such killings will taper off and we'll be on to the next national obsession.
I don't think the public interest is sustainable for that long. So, inevitably the news about such killings will taper off and we'll be on to the next national obsession.
2
When a black officer shoots a black criminal, the protestors demand a boycott of--wait for it--white businesses. The lunacy continues.
7
Violent looting benefits gun manufacturers.
4
It is legal to carry weapons in most states. That by itself is not a reason to shoot and kill a black person - or any person. It is clear as day we have a BIG problem with the police's trigger-happy response to black men in almost any situation. This really needs to be stomped down by society - that is, us. Grow a civil conscience and tell your local representative your views.
4
The guy went back to his vehicle and emerged with a gun in front in front of police officers. I don't care if you are black white Asian or purple with chocolate orange sprinkles, those actions are going to get you shot at by the police as an armed threat. I don't know what there is to debate or get all angry about.
If those aren't the actual facts as printed by the NY times then and only then should questions be asked.
If those aren't the actual facts as printed by the NY times then and only then should questions be asked.
10
Why does this headline make it sound like the police randomly murdered someone? This guy had a gun. The officers felt threatened! I feel annoyed and frustrated when I see that the headlines are tailored in such a way as to make the reader see this story in an inaccurate way. It's not right.
11
Time to take the guns away from the cops. The cops in the U.K. do not carry guns. Set a precedent for gun regulation.
1
Keep protesting, Trump needs the votes.
8
Young black men are viewed differently and with suspicion by the police and by all races in society at large. It is the result of the young black mans statistical propensity for violence that is far above any other group of human beings. This is the truth that most blacks and liberals will never admit to. The fear and preservation reaction in engrained in human DNA and it will not be undone by NYT or BLM spin. As long as the reality is, the fear will remain. Why not do some stories on the legions of people that are the victims of young black male violence? Oh yeah, that doesn't fit the agenda.
8
As a white male I'm just starting to wake up to the fact that these acts have been happening all along. The only difference is there are cameras now, and social media.
This leaves a distinct sickening feeling in my stomach, to think off all of the innocent lives that have been taken in the past. And the distinct and present danger to people of color now.
Something must be done immediately, by way of executive order, IMO.
This leaves a distinct sickening feeling in my stomach, to think off all of the innocent lives that have been taken in the past. And the distinct and present danger to people of color now.
Something must be done immediately, by way of executive order, IMO.
Only ONE question for the protestors/looters. What is your advise to a police officer if they see a man with a weapon who will not drop it. If the man is let go on his way kills or wounds someone then you can bet that the police will be named again for not doing there job. It is a no win situation until new gun laws are instituted in the US and with police and community feeling much safer because of that.
4
And everyone complained when Colin Kaepernick took a knee for the anthem! I guess what we'd prefer people of color do is be quite and suck it up.
This is too much!! Didn't these clowns see the Tulsa videos? Are they aware of NC carry laws? You guys in NY get nervous at carry laws in the south, but we citizens don't shoot each other. Seems just the cops shoot at folks. (Gang-bangers are in a different league & most have felony records, so carry permits will be highly unusual.)
The dead man was not the man covered by the arrest warrant. Was he carrying? We don't know. It would be legal and he might have put his book down to leave his car. It is a violation of state and federal laws for police officers to shoot and kill someone who is breaking no laws. If the dashcam and body cams demonstrate that the man pointed a gun at the cops, release them. If they were all "not working," the FBI needs to take over.
This has to stop. This should have never been allowed to start, but we certainly had laws by the 1960s to end this madness. I generally don't see any demonstration, much less proof, that the rising number of dead black men have been engaged in conduct warranting gunfire when murdered by their local cops. Most if these men are taxpayers, so they are paying their killers.
Stop it now!
The dead man was not the man covered by the arrest warrant. Was he carrying? We don't know. It would be legal and he might have put his book down to leave his car. It is a violation of state and federal laws for police officers to shoot and kill someone who is breaking no laws. If the dashcam and body cams demonstrate that the man pointed a gun at the cops, release them. If they were all "not working," the FBI needs to take over.
This has to stop. This should have never been allowed to start, but we certainly had laws by the 1960s to end this madness. I generally don't see any demonstration, much less proof, that the rising number of dead black men have been engaged in conduct warranting gunfire when murdered by their local cops. Most if these men are taxpayers, so they are paying their killers.
Stop it now!
While people shouldn't come to conclusions before an impartial investigation takes place, there is no doubt in this age of the Internet and Twitter the response and perception of incidents has changed...Furthermore does the media always indicate that when a tragedy likes this occurs, it must be noted the race of the shooter and victim?! How many times do we hear that a white officer shot a white person? As if the color of a person's skin is more important than the facts of the incident!
3
Does anyone think that these riots in Charlotte are in response to one shooting?
6
Why is it that when a cop kills a civilian it is manslaughter, but wen a cop is killed the death penalty is demanded.
What kinds of people are interested in becoming police officers? It is a very dangerous, stressful job to say the least. This constant stress leads some police to lose their judgment and fire upon innocent unarmed people, especially African American people. This must stop, but how?
2
We deserve better, or at least more balanced, reporting from the NY Times. The article focuses on race. The headline emphasizes that "a Black Man" was shot (and that fact is repeated in the lead paragraph) and quotes the victim's daughter as saying “The police just shot my daddy four times for being black.” Mr. Blinder also notes that a white police officer was charged with the shooting of a black man in Charlotte three years ago and that a white police officer shot a black man in Tulsa a few days ago.
With all of this attention to race, doesn't the fact that the police officer who shot Mr. Scott is also black deserve more prominence than a single mention in the 13th paragraph?
With all of this attention to race, doesn't the fact that the police officer who shot Mr. Scott is also black deserve more prominence than a single mention in the 13th paragraph?
9
Two things, could we all wait until the investigation is complete and then all weigh in or pile on what "we" believe either happened or didn't happen, side with the community or the police? Nobody wants to get the facts anymore its either the police are murders or the victim deserved it! That aside, burning, looting and throwing rocks through the windows of moving vehicles is criminal behavior no matter what the reason in this case!
Second, to all the commenters who are posting that the terrorist was "captured", "subdued" or arrested alive, the best was the one "brilliantly subdued" after his murderous attempt at killing people, I remind you he was shot at multiple times by the police hit apparently twice or so and he luckily survived. If they had shot a bit better he too would be dead! Not that in that case I would have cared.
Please stop the rush to judgement or looting based upon the first blush of what happened. We are truly becoming a nation of uncivilized people.
Second, to all the commenters who are posting that the terrorist was "captured", "subdued" or arrested alive, the best was the one "brilliantly subdued" after his murderous attempt at killing people, I remind you he was shot at multiple times by the police hit apparently twice or so and he luckily survived. If they had shot a bit better he too would be dead! Not that in that case I would have cared.
Please stop the rush to judgement or looting based upon the first blush of what happened. We are truly becoming a nation of uncivilized people.
5
Wondering if this has always been going on but under the national coverage radar. And while the pubic has the right to know, this kind of coverage has the highest probability of fostering knee jerk reactions on both sides.
Is there a way to cover these stories without inflaming everybody before facts and evidence are completely gathered..
Is there a way to cover these stories without inflaming everybody before facts and evidence are completely gathered..
5
The modus American police is operating reminds me of the style Israeli police and IDF are doing their job, apparently being trained for this scheme.
"Shoot first without asking" is this cynical scheme called. I remember well the shooting of the 12 year old playing with a toy plastic rifle. The officer stepped out of the car and shot the next moment. This behavior is hard to swallow especially when later comes the explanation "we had to do this, he represented a threat".
Very, very ugly.
"Shoot first without asking" is this cynical scheme called. I remember well the shooting of the 12 year old playing with a toy plastic rifle. The officer stepped out of the car and shot the next moment. This behavior is hard to swallow especially when later comes the explanation "we had to do this, he represented a threat".
Very, very ugly.
2
Protesters are not going to get there full meaning across by injuring random officers. Fighting crime with crime will only feed the fire. Until all of us realize that we all have different backgrounds and cultures, then we will never be over racial division. These horrible acts of murder by the police, only shows that we need more trained officers in the line of duty.
3
This is getting to a point that during every routine traffic stop, a black man is worried about whether he would see his family again. Every reasonable person recognizes that being a police office is not a easy job on many days. Nevertheless, there are too many cops out there lack courage and decency. Their problems are being compounded by a justice system that will let them get away with shooting unarmed civilians. We need a special unit set up in the Justice department that will prosecute killer cops. Until we abolish a system that let the cops' partner in crime, the DAs, prosecuting these killer cops, this type of tragedy is unlikely to end.
2
The headline should read: " Black Officer kills an armed Black Man and Blacks Riot" or "Officer Kills Armed Man and Riots Ensue" but that wouldn't serve your purpose. In any case, let's start giving police the training and support they need in order to do their jobs well and let's start reporting the facts and stop sensationalizing. It's becoming really old. Aside from this, rioting only reinforces the perception of black men and women being violent and out of control and of police having to deal with all this. That police kill too many people is true, but the majority of people they kill are not black and the majority of crimes are committed by African Americans. So let's report the facts straight NYT especially if you are concerned with solving this problem and not getting readers all fired up.
8
If a police officer gave an order to me, I would very, very quickly obey him. I understand the man was told repeatedly "drop the gun" and did not comply. Regardless of anyone color of skin, you just cannot ignore or argue or whatever under these circumstances.
7
This is a bigger problem than terrorism is. At least on U.S. soil.
2
What if the headline simply said police shoot and kill a criminal, or a person engaged in a criminal act? Why identify the color of the victim until all the facts come out. Many of the "victims" of police shootings in the last several months had long criminal histories and had firearms within their reach or grasp.
Sure, police make mistakes and many innocent people have died. But to report every shooting first as racially motivated stokes the fires that lead to violent protests.
Sure, police make mistakes and many innocent people have died. But to report every shooting first as racially motivated stokes the fires that lead to violent protests.
8
Before everyone overreacts about this situation, we need to let the story unfold. If the police are in the wrong then justice will be served. Its a terrible situation all around, where another life is gone. If protests continue to go on, even more lives are being put in danger. Before protests happen, see what results in the case and if there is a wrong verdict then peaceful protests can be made.
2
Rioting is the natural consequence when a large number of people in a population simultaneously reach the conclusion that they have no stake in the society to which they are members. After all, if you are not a stakeholder, if you don't claim ownership in the fruits of society, then it doesn't matter to you if chaos ensues and everything burns. And every time a person is gunned down under suspicious circumstances, or under circumstances that would not happen to a person who enjoys full rights of citizenship, it further inflames the wound, reminding the aggrieved crowd that they remain second-class members of society.
The question is, will we continue to take half-hearted measures to enfranchise all Americans, or take legitimate meaningful steps to make minorities full-fledged stakeholders, including treating them as citizens entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Some think the solution is to squeeze and oppress even further, lock everyone up, throw away the key. I find that an unjust and immoral response. But it fails even on practical measures. Each incarcerated individual costs tens of thousands to maintain instead of contributing to the economy. And continual unrest is a fertile breeding ground for terror recruits. It's bad enough being intractably embroiled in the Middle East. Do we want to be in an unending state of war with ourselves?
The question is, will we continue to take half-hearted measures to enfranchise all Americans, or take legitimate meaningful steps to make minorities full-fledged stakeholders, including treating them as citizens entitled to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Some think the solution is to squeeze and oppress even further, lock everyone up, throw away the key. I find that an unjust and immoral response. But it fails even on practical measures. Each incarcerated individual costs tens of thousands to maintain instead of contributing to the economy. And continual unrest is a fertile breeding ground for terror recruits. It's bad enough being intractably embroiled in the Middle East. Do we want to be in an unending state of war with ourselves?
When protesters loot or provide a conditions that allows looting, they get no sympathy from me. Are they protesting or just looking for an excuse to steal?
5
I'm well aware of the political history of the use of the word "riot" to gloss over the very real reasons that people rise up, however, I still find it odd that journalists are so reluctant to call something what it is. The vast majority of the Black Lives Matters protests were indeed protests, as were the 99% protests and tea part protests. What happened in 1999 in Seattle was a riot. What happened in Charlotte sounds like a riot. Virtually every definition of riot indicates it is a "violent public disturbance." Just because the "violent public disturbance" was a reaction to a real grievance, doesn't make it not a riot. People clashed with police officers, looted trucks, set things on fire, through rocks at at least one family's car, and tried to break into a Walmart. "Protest" doesn't capture what happened. The title of the article ought to be: "Small riot erupts in Charlotte After Police Kill a Black Man."
3
This may seem a little crazy but why is it that the police think that every black man in America is a danger? It seems like it's open season on black men and boys. I've had enough of all this racism and bigotry. The real problem is most white people think that they are in constant danger from black people, which is STUPID. The truth is, the cops get so riled up and they act like gorilla soldiers. For god's sake people this isn't a third world country. Why doesn't anyone just step back a minute and take a good look at how they are behaving? I bet if any of us did that we would all be ashamed at the behavior.
Grow up America, black people are not anyone's enemy.
Grow up America, black people are not anyone's enemy.
This man was walking away from police officers who had their weapons drawn. I feel if police have their guns drawn on you, they are probably not asking for you to walk back to your vehicle, or reach into it. This man didn't need to die, but he definitely wasn't completely innocent.
4
It is terrible for any person to lose their life, whether a criminal or not. Although we are not sure if the killing is justified or not, I think it is a little ridiculous that citizens are rioting and destroying their own city.
6
I am not fond of how people do not realize that the police's lives were in danger from rioters and unfortunately, a black man was shot, and as a result the people riot and destroy their own town.
5
The basic issue is that with all the recent issues, police do not feel safe in today's society when civilians own firearms. At the moment of a issue occurring they do not have the time to make a thought process of who is safe and who is causing an issue. This is clearly disproving the theory that guns are making our world safer.
It has been 3 years now that American citizens have been asking our police departments throughout the country to review their procedures and practices. They seem to have largely ignored our concerns. As retired NYPD Commissioner Bratton recently wrote in the NYT the reforms needed in policing must come from within each department. Some departments have responded such as the NYPD and should be encouraged.
In the recent 2 shootings, the police have resorted to victim shaming to an alarming degree which leads me to conclude that the blue wall of resistance is still strong in Tulsa and Charlotte.
The facts of these 2 cases are being investigated right now and hopefully full transparency will prevail.
It is past time, the police across America must step up to the plate and do the work needed. We are tired of waiting. If they continue to stall, reforms will be imposed from the outside. It is because we citizens need and respect our police that we are asking you to evaluate yourselves and your institution.
In the recent 2 shootings, the police have resorted to victim shaming to an alarming degree which leads me to conclude that the blue wall of resistance is still strong in Tulsa and Charlotte.
The facts of these 2 cases are being investigated right now and hopefully full transparency will prevail.
It is past time, the police across America must step up to the plate and do the work needed. We are tired of waiting. If they continue to stall, reforms will be imposed from the outside. It is because we citizens need and respect our police that we are asking you to evaluate yourselves and your institution.
Why is it that police officers must 'shoot to kill?' Why can't they 'shoot to wound' giving them/public/investigations time to actually learn the factual truth?
3
Terribly misleading ignorant pull-quote "The shooting was the latest in a long string of deaths of black people at the hands of the police."
As Obama, and under his umbrella those beneath him, legitimize rioting and looting, this is what you get. It's a real soft bigotry against regular minorities to coddle and either overtly or passively accept or condone this behavior by hooligans, and yes, thugs.
As Obama, and under his umbrella those beneath him, legitimize rioting and looting, this is what you get. It's a real soft bigotry against regular minorities to coddle and either overtly or passively accept or condone this behavior by hooligans, and yes, thugs.
8
Do you think whites do not riot? Look at America's history. You will find that whites rioted and set an orphanage on fire with innocent African-American children inside, including babies. You will find that whites rioted in New York when the lights went out across the city. Riots were reported everywhere in New York, rioting and looting by whites. If you check, you will find that whites rioted when homes were built for African-Americans after homes were built for whites. You will find though out history that whites have rioted. Race Riots initiate by whites where hundreds of people of color were killed and maimed. None of these riots were because your men, women and children were being systematically killed by white policeman! Get off your high horses!!!!
Why doesn't this headline include the fact that the guy had a gun? Pointed at the cop? I am so tired of this! Yes, the cops need to be held accountable when they do the wrong thing. Of course, we agree! HOWEVER, in all of this protest why is it that NOBODY is talking about the individual's personal responsibility to not commit a crime? The vast majority of people who have run ins with cops are committing crimes. Why is there no concerted effort in urban communities to stop crime? Why are the cops constantly being describes as immoral when their is NO talk about the crime, which is one of the hugest causes of this problem? It is absurd. Believe it that nothing will get solved if you constantly blame the cops but never take personal responsibility! And my kids are black, so spare me the accusations that I'm racist. We taught them to do the right thing. Don't be stupid. Don't commit crimes. Go to school. Do your homework. They are all doing well and none have ever had a problem with the cops, and they HAVE been stopped. Had they been carrying guns? Robbing a store? Leading the police on a chase? That may have been a different matter. But, they weren't. People really need to take personal responsibility, and that includes both the cops and the people. Get it together.
7
I hope folks start figuring out that the idiots cheering on Trump's shoot-from-the-hip screaming and threatening have a lot in common with the idiots rioting because they're sure they know what happened before they have the slightest evidence.
It's a Good Thing to find out what happened first, kids. And also a Good Thing? Not rioting, and not blustering about how you'll blow up people who flip you the bird, torture prisoners, hunt down their families, and carpet-bomb their cities.
Oh, well. I also don't expect that the various right-wingers screaming will figure out that gosh, maybe the stories just relate facts they don't like, maybe Big Media like Breitbart is a leetle more bigoted than the Times...and maybe if the headlines read, "Black Police Shoot And Kill Another Unarmed White Power Activist: Investigation Shows 'Gun' Was Copy of Turner Diaries," THEY'D Be out out Route 85, waving guns.
Find out what hapoened first, folks. Then, try behaving like grownups.
It's a Good Thing to find out what happened first, kids. And also a Good Thing? Not rioting, and not blustering about how you'll blow up people who flip you the bird, torture prisoners, hunt down their families, and carpet-bomb their cities.
Oh, well. I also don't expect that the various right-wingers screaming will figure out that gosh, maybe the stories just relate facts they don't like, maybe Big Media like Breitbart is a leetle more bigoted than the Times...and maybe if the headlines read, "Black Police Shoot And Kill Another Unarmed White Power Activist: Investigation Shows 'Gun' Was Copy of Turner Diaries," THEY'D Be out out Route 85, waving guns.
Find out what hapoened first, folks. Then, try behaving like grownups.
Black looters endorse Trump.
4
"Lets not assume anything until we know the truth."
"He wasn't listening to the police."
"Why was he moving around?"
Since Michael Brown in Ferguson, I've heard all of the above. We then had Eric Garner, Laquan McDonald, Sandra Bland, Marcus Golden, Philando Castile, Terence Crutcher, Tamir Rice, Alton Sterling, Keith Scott, and many more. Too many.
You don't have to be compassionate. You don't even have to be smart. You don't have to be black or brown. You just have to be rational to see that there is a pattern, and because of the pattern there is a grave problem in our country regarding the treatment of people of color by our police. If you cannot fathom this, then you are purely ignorant. If you blame the victim to justify the actions of the police even with the facts on hand, you are not a Republican or Democrat; you are purely a racist.
"He wasn't listening to the police."
"Why was he moving around?"
Since Michael Brown in Ferguson, I've heard all of the above. We then had Eric Garner, Laquan McDonald, Sandra Bland, Marcus Golden, Philando Castile, Terence Crutcher, Tamir Rice, Alton Sterling, Keith Scott, and many more. Too many.
You don't have to be compassionate. You don't even have to be smart. You don't have to be black or brown. You just have to be rational to see that there is a pattern, and because of the pattern there is a grave problem in our country regarding the treatment of people of color by our police. If you cannot fathom this, then you are purely ignorant. If you blame the victim to justify the actions of the police even with the facts on hand, you are not a Republican or Democrat; you are purely a racist.
Welcome to donald trump's dystopian america where African Americans are gunned down--dozens at a time just to satisfy the bloodlust of angry white men. Shame, Shame!
First of all, I say this as a black woman. The cop who killed this man is a Black American---so it leads me to ask: in the case of Black Lives Matter or Moveon.org, are they going to blame race? Who will be blamed?
8
It's hard to understand why any Caucasian police officer would want anything to do with any AA/BLM possible criminal activity. There is no upside in it for them at all. Seems like there is a strong Ferguson Effect at work.
Maybe the 'Escape From New York' model should be adopted in modified form. Instead of Mexico walls a la Trump, build walls around heavily AA neighborhoods where there is much crime and gunplay, and pull the cops out, except perhaps for AA cops who might want to venture in. Then the BLM folks could sort it out themselves in there with full attention to Black Lives mattering...... And there would be no need for them to worry 'bout evil Caucasian cops killing any AA suspects ....
Maybe the 'Escape From New York' model should be adopted in modified form. Instead of Mexico walls a la Trump, build walls around heavily AA neighborhoods where there is much crime and gunplay, and pull the cops out, except perhaps for AA cops who might want to venture in. Then the BLM folks could sort it out themselves in there with full attention to Black Lives mattering...... And there would be no need for them to worry 'bout evil Caucasian cops killing any AA suspects ....
4
Bullmouse, they have the time to check when the person is white or is eating someone's face. White police just don't have the time if you are a person of color. Get rid of all white police out of neighborhoods of color. We do not want them to police us. Get rid of the police at traffic stops! Use cameras for all citizens. Too many deaths because the stupid police are afraid of anyone who does not look like them. How many African-American police have been killed because a white policeman thought they were the crooks? Or, where they killed on purpose by the white policeman? If you are white, the white police will have time to check. They are not going to kill a child with a BB gun! Go make those mistakes in white neighborhoods. Don't give a white man the benefit of the doubt, just taser or kill them and then get protection from the union. White neighborhoods would love to see you. We do not want you to police us!!! You are killers!
1
It appears the discredited 'hands up, don't shoot' which was never said by the thug Michael Brown who was shot and killed for attacking a police officer is still being worked by the race hustlers and thugs looting and attacking whites.
6
Just think of cops like a bowl of Skittles, where three of them may kill you.
5
Well, rioting will certainly help your cause and make people rethink their opinions of your community...
10
In the words of Bob Dylan- "If you're black you better not show up on the street or you re gonna draw the Heat"
1
Here and in Tulsa, the black men were shot and killed by BLACK COPS when the black men did not follow orders or held a weapon in his band that threatened the cops. So, any question of racism is ruled out because blacks cannot be racists against other blacks.
Hillary, as usual, jumped the gun and pleaded with the 'white people' to behave better. Does she know that two black men were killed at the hands of two black cops, one of whom was female?
When Hillary's campaign repeats the cliche that 'America is ALREADY GREAT' and does not need to be made great, they ought to realize that at least America is not great for some black folks.
The family of the guy killed in Charlotte says that he had a BOOK in his hand but the black police chief says they saw a weapon in his hand and did not recover any book.
Another case of 'gentle giant' shot dead, huh?
Hillary, as usual, jumped the gun and pleaded with the 'white people' to behave better. Does she know that two black men were killed at the hands of two black cops, one of whom was female?
When Hillary's campaign repeats the cliche that 'America is ALREADY GREAT' and does not need to be made great, they ought to realize that at least America is not great for some black folks.
The family of the guy killed in Charlotte says that he had a BOOK in his hand but the black police chief says they saw a weapon in his hand and did not recover any book.
Another case of 'gentle giant' shot dead, huh?
10
Until the body camera footage is released, I don't believe the police account of how things happened. In recent highly publicized cases it has been shown the police falsify reports to protect themselves.
From what I heard at the press conference with the Chief, the plain clothes officer who shot Scott didn't have a body camera on. He said other officers did have on body cameras.
From what I heard at the press conference with the Chief, the plain clothes officer who shot Scott didn't have a body camera on. He said other officers did have on body cameras.
This article's lede should have been that the mood in Charlotte, N.C., turned ugly Tuesday afternoon after a black man was fatally shot by a police officer in the process of serving an arrest warrant for another person in an apartment complex there.
1
“The community deserves answers and full investigation will ensue,” - yes, an investigation of the rioters and those who wantonly destroy property and menace the public. "They shot my daddy for being black"- the times should be ashamed of itself for printing such a specious accusation. Police deserve the benefit of the doubt, especially when they are operating in clearly dangerous areas full of criminal elements. Any doubt to that assertion is disproven
by the violent and destructive actions of the rioters. They "deserve" nothing but jail.
by the violent and destructive actions of the rioters. They "deserve" nothing but jail.
8
Going forward, when there's a shooting of a black person, it now seems as if the police will no longer be given the benefit of the doubt. They have a tough job; they patrol rough and dangerous areas. When rioters loot and destroy buildings, it hardly justifies their cause. One of the great paradoxes of modern man is that for an individual or individuals to effect noticeable change through constructive action is difficult, yet to do so by destructible behavior is very easy.
5
So now, when the police say the man was holding a gun and was an imminent deadly threat to officers, this is pooh-poohed until we find out the REAL TRUTH from the perpetrator's friends and family? Is this really how people want it?
7
Why not get to the heart of the "protests?" This is what happens when a state and community systematically represses Blacks in the 21st century -- one spark sets off a conflagration. It's surprising this doesn't happen more often. But North Carolina won't change its ways. The only way to douse these sparks is to have national legislation setting police "use of force" standards and making it a federal crime to violate them. All police shootings would be investigated by the FBI on the suspicion that they are federal crimes. I'm amazed no politician is advocating this.
5
There is no rush to judgement of the police in the face of:
1. a known bomb terrorist who actually shot at the police was wounded and not killed outright. Heck I am channeling Trump here (who would have thought) but this guy was treated for his wounds. Pity in the face of these two outrageous shootings.
2. Dylan who massacred 9 people in a church was caught WITHOUT (for emphasis not shouting) a single shot fired at him.
3. A gang of bikers in Texas opening flaunting guns and fighting had not ONE member of their group killed.
And there are other instances when the "let me kill him" mind set did not prevail.
America will never move to a higher place in terms of race relations unless we are able to admit that there still is a strong mindset that blacks are dangerous and do not deserve the same benefit of the doubt afforded by the Constitution.
It is laughable how we yell and scream that our rights are violated over our personal information access by the NSA, but somehow can't see or admit to the gross violation of individual rights of black people.
I do not care that the police who killed is black. There is a long running culture of the police establishment that permeates and has poisoned even officers of color.
1. a known bomb terrorist who actually shot at the police was wounded and not killed outright. Heck I am channeling Trump here (who would have thought) but this guy was treated for his wounds. Pity in the face of these two outrageous shootings.
2. Dylan who massacred 9 people in a church was caught WITHOUT (for emphasis not shouting) a single shot fired at him.
3. A gang of bikers in Texas opening flaunting guns and fighting had not ONE member of their group killed.
And there are other instances when the "let me kill him" mind set did not prevail.
America will never move to a higher place in terms of race relations unless we are able to admit that there still is a strong mindset that blacks are dangerous and do not deserve the same benefit of the doubt afforded by the Constitution.
It is laughable how we yell and scream that our rights are violated over our personal information access by the NSA, but somehow can't see or admit to the gross violation of individual rights of black people.
I do not care that the police who killed is black. There is a long running culture of the police establishment that permeates and has poisoned even officers of color.
2
What is obvious in every case is disobedience and disrespect for law enforcement. This incident and the one in Tulsa would have been avoided if the deceased acknowledged the policeman and followed their directions.
8
So this "thorough investigation by the community" is going to end any differently than any other? Cops being investigated by cops or the people they directly work with? Why even bother, I'll save you the time. The cops will be put on paid leave, (vacation), then after what will be called a painstaking investigation the cops will be cleared of any wrongdoing. So clear that the community will immediately pay off the survivors with millions. There you go. Wash, rinse, repeat.
2
Police departments don't seem to need training to understand they shouldn't fire upon white citizens...they simply don't seem to shoot indiscriminately at white suspects (even when those white suspects have just perpetrated murder).
Why, then, should training be necessary to teach police officers not to fire upon black citizens...unless it really is a matter of racial prejudice and/or hatred?
Why, then, should training be necessary to teach police officers not to fire upon black citizens...unless it really is a matter of racial prejudice and/or hatred?
read the stats -- police kill more whites than blacks
2
Looking at the Tulsa incident, I see two processes:
1. The researched and debated issue of more likely shooting at black men. Is it a criterion issue (as in signal detection theory) such that a lack of compliance to 'show me your hands' or 'get on the ground' leads to a misperception of a gun or a lower set point to shoot. That's been researched quite a bit with mixed results and a problem of applicability under stress as compared to the lab.
2. The lack of compliance to orders. Some orders are contradictory and given in a confused panic by officers. However, we have folks who refuse to stand still. Why - substance use, refusal to submit to indignity of what they see as harassment? There is a difference between the normative and pragmatic. Should one be subject to harassment vs. common sense of just not moving?
Both these factors come into play and interact. Many departments don't give officers enough stress simulations and the message that non-compliance and 'hidden hands can be killlers' lead to overreactions for some. However, not being careful has been a factor in officers' harm.
Gun control and disarming the police. Nice rhetoric for the Times. It is not going to happen. So we'd better have more work on training and interaction.
1. The researched and debated issue of more likely shooting at black men. Is it a criterion issue (as in signal detection theory) such that a lack of compliance to 'show me your hands' or 'get on the ground' leads to a misperception of a gun or a lower set point to shoot. That's been researched quite a bit with mixed results and a problem of applicability under stress as compared to the lab.
2. The lack of compliance to orders. Some orders are contradictory and given in a confused panic by officers. However, we have folks who refuse to stand still. Why - substance use, refusal to submit to indignity of what they see as harassment? There is a difference between the normative and pragmatic. Should one be subject to harassment vs. common sense of just not moving?
Both these factors come into play and interact. Many departments don't give officers enough stress simulations and the message that non-compliance and 'hidden hands can be killlers' lead to overreactions for some. However, not being careful has been a factor in officers' harm.
Gun control and disarming the police. Nice rhetoric for the Times. It is not going to happen. So we'd better have more work on training and interaction.
3
Whatever happened during the confrontation between Scott and the officer is irrelevant at this point. It doesn't matter if he had a gun, a book, a water pistol, or a bible. A man is dead, and after years of unjustified shootings the public no longer trusts the police to do their jobs. Their monopoly on violence is slipping, and the targeted killings of officers and the scale of the civil unrest following each civilian killing will only continue to get worse.
The time for "community engagement" is over. The institution of law enforcement in this country will determine whether or not this situation is fixed or if it deteriorates further. It has to start with them -- and continue until the problem is solved -- or nothing can be accomplished. The sooner we accept that reality, the sooner we can get past it.
The time for "community engagement" is over. The institution of law enforcement in this country will determine whether or not this situation is fixed or if it deteriorates further. It has to start with them -- and continue until the problem is solved -- or nothing can be accomplished. The sooner we accept that reality, the sooner we can get past it.
1
"It doesn't matter if he had a gun, a book, a water pistol, or a bible."
I guess we are living in a new age where facts don't matter.
I guess we are living in a new age where facts don't matter.
9
The shooting was the latest in a long string of deaths of black people at the hands of the police.
White and Hispanics are also shot to death by the police. You must know that. And adjusted for the number of encounters, the percentages are fairly similar.
White and Hispanics are also shot to death by the police. You must know that. And adjusted for the number of encounters, the percentages are fairly similar.
3
Who organizes and funds all of these protests ? Am surprised the New York Times hasn't done an investigation .
4
Maybe Trump.
1
In order to reduce the amount of police killings the following should be protocol when encountering a person armed with a gun. Command the person to drop the weapon at least three times. Since the police person has a bullet proof vest they should allow the subject the first shot. This would prevent the needless shooting of someone who just has a toy look-a-like gun. Then the police person should shoot to knock the gun out of the person's hand.
How does anyone seriously expect any man, but especially a black man, to listen to cops who shoot unarmed men dead for being black? This country is about to explode, and it is about time.
1
So you are saying a black police officer shot a black man because he was black? I suspect there is more to it.
3
Protests? That's a riot. Destroying public property, looting walmart. That's a riot. I agree that many of these killings are unjustified but calling a riot a protest doesn't help anything.
We need a modern Dr. King. Peaceful protest works, rioting does not. When people riot i wish the police would just come in hard and lock everybody up, and I'm a democrat voting for Hillary.
These criminals may have just cost her North Carolina as well as hurt their own cause. If she's smart she would condemn the rioting in her statement, as well as unjustified police killings, though the case here is unclear.
We need a modern Dr. King. Peaceful protest works, rioting does not. When people riot i wish the police would just come in hard and lock everybody up, and I'm a democrat voting for Hillary.
These criminals may have just cost her North Carolina as well as hurt their own cause. If she's smart she would condemn the rioting in her statement, as well as unjustified police killings, though the case here is unclear.
6
Please black people do not riot, do not disturb our genteel sensibilities. Another black life taken without even a modicum of due process of law? Be calm, it'll all work out, you have our assurance that it will, never mind that it is the same platitude we have been giving you for a very long long time, it's just that this time we really mean it. Don't we?
5
And if it was you driving and a rock from a protester shatters your windshield?
4
Dear Kent Jensen,
Your sarcasm isn't terribly helpful. Surely you know that rioting will not cause serious remedies to be put into place. So it's hard to tell what the point of your comment is at all.
Maybe if black people, instead of rioting after this sort of shooting, held peaceful protests, signed petitions, voted in every election, donated to campaigns of people working for their interests, and got involved politically in that sort of way, then solutions might be put into place. But rioting is no solution, and you propose no solution either.
Your sarcasm isn't terribly helpful. Surely you know that rioting will not cause serious remedies to be put into place. So it's hard to tell what the point of your comment is at all.
Maybe if black people, instead of rioting after this sort of shooting, held peaceful protests, signed petitions, voted in every election, donated to campaigns of people working for their interests, and got involved politically in that sort of way, then solutions might be put into place. But rioting is no solution, and you propose no solution either.
4
Whatever merit there may be to a protest, it does no good if the protesters start "looting and pillaging". That simply re-enforces the negative stereotype and demonstrates a lack of care for their own community.
Not incidentally this behavior serves to enhance the sense of danger felt by the police.
Not incidentally this behavior serves to enhance the sense of danger felt by the police.
8
Shoot to kill seems to be the mindset of police when encountering African Americans. Why shoot? And if shoot, why shoot to kill? And why "open fire"? Is this response less likely in NYC? If so, this should be looked into and emulated.
1
Read the newspapers with an unbiased mind. Police has killed either whites, blacks, afghans, whosoever draw pistol in a dark highway. Consider being a policeman. I'ts tough indeed
1
If you're non-black terrorist, you're caotured alive; if you're a black male, you're shot dead for daring to be alive.
cops have hard jobs. and blacks have had a tough time with cops. but nothing changes when both sides, cops or black lives matter, don't try to find a common ground. eye for an eye and the whole world is blind. i believe said gandi.
With all that has transpired between police and blacks, I do not see a black police officer firing his weapon -- unless he was sure that he had no other choice.
However, no one has the right to riot and destroy people's property and attack law-abiding citizens. These people are disgusting and use events such as this to loot and rob.
However, no one has the right to riot and destroy people's property and attack law-abiding citizens. These people are disgusting and use events such as this to loot and rob.
8
In no way do I believe or condone violence, looting and rioting is an answer to the string of injustices done to people of color—mostly Afro-Americans—all over the country.
The proclivity of cell phone cameras catching these killings has changed the equation in publicizing what most black people have known has been going on since the end of the Civil War.
After all these years of striving for equal treatment by law enforcement agencies, black people are still seen as more dangerous and more likely to be violent. That is the attitude *most* cops have when dealing with most black people. This is what is in their heads when confronting a black man. And this is why it is unarmed black people who are shot and killed by police over and over and over again.
To make matters worse, DA's, police unions, and police chiefs routinely refuse to prosecute cops who shoot unarmed black people, wrapping them in the cloak of selfless public servants when they should never have been given a badge to begin with.
The proclivity of cell phone cameras catching these killings has changed the equation in publicizing what most black people have known has been going on since the end of the Civil War.
After all these years of striving for equal treatment by law enforcement agencies, black people are still seen as more dangerous and more likely to be violent. That is the attitude *most* cops have when dealing with most black people. This is what is in their heads when confronting a black man. And this is why it is unarmed black people who are shot and killed by police over and over and over again.
To make matters worse, DA's, police unions, and police chiefs routinely refuse to prosecute cops who shoot unarmed black people, wrapping them in the cloak of selfless public servants when they should never have been given a badge to begin with.
The notion that is is OK to loot and destroy our community because of the actions of the police is asinine and defies logic. That is not progress.
8
NYT needs to examine why Asians never get shot by police. Never.
6
same reason they can't get a job in Hollywood.
I-n-v-I-s-I-b-l-e
I-n-v-I-s-I-b-l-e
3
I can and do understand that being a police officer is a dangerous job. I also know that there are many good police officers on the job. I can also understand the anger, fear, and frustration of the black community. It has become a weekly, almost daily occurrence that another unarmed person of color has been killed by police. We only know about the ones caught on camera. This has to stop. No one living in this country should have to live in fear of a traffic stop, a car break down, or just walking home late at night. Yet this is the reality for many black people. We have to acknowledge the grief and pain of families who have lost someone they loved dearly to a senseless act by the people whose job it is to protect us all. All of us who believe this is wrong have to stand together and demand change.
1
All passion and name-calling aside, there is one simple fact. As a white, middle-class white woman there is zero chance that I will die when I am pulled over for a traffic violation.
7
Unless you happen to pull a gun on a cop, then all bets are off.
7
You would have to be grossly uncooperative, probably to the point of appearing to go for a weapon. Which is possible, of course. A possible mistake by someone from any demographic. Very unlikely from yours.
3
Once again, a story of police brutality before any facts are confirmed leads to violent protests by people who really don't care about whether the story is based upon all the facts or just what they are predisposed to think. Yet, a host of people have opinions based upon the premise that the police officers acted wrongly and the people who the police hurt were peaceful and loving and not deserving of any attention by police. It's kind of expected in any society where the civil society has broken down and people simply cannot trust anyone anymore but is America a failed society in decline? Or are some people reacting to what is in their imaginations rather than what they know to be reliable information?
5
How is it that, 24 hours later, the NYT still does not know for sure if the victim had a gun? Also, it is totally unacceptable that the police won't admit that there is dashboard and/or body cam video. It gives the impression that there is a police cover up. Crap like this is what is fueling public outrage regarding police shootings.
This is NOT a black vs. white issue. The underlying theme is that police officers feel threatened and they often choose to shoot and ask questions later. Many police officers do not have the judgement, or controlled demeanor under pressure that is required to responsibly administer deadly force.
Lastly, when a police officer gives you a command -- you MUST follow their instructions immediately and exactly. People that don't are personally responsible if they get shot.
This is NOT a black vs. white issue. The underlying theme is that police officers feel threatened and they often choose to shoot and ask questions later. Many police officers do not have the judgement, or controlled demeanor under pressure that is required to responsibly administer deadly force.
Lastly, when a police officer gives you a command -- you MUST follow their instructions immediately and exactly. People that don't are personally responsible if they get shot.
3
Guns should remain holstered until there is a need to respond to actual shooting. All policing before that moment should be done without a gun. Simple as that.
Forget about the riots and the looters. Where is the outrage that 4 cops with guns first taser a man and shoot him dead while already incapacitated on the street, and then walk away from him dying on the pavement while comforting the female cop?
And what about the biggest lie of all, that the shooter cop said she feared for her life because he was reaching into his car to get a weapon, while the windows were close? And the cherry on the cake that helicopter cops more than 100 feet above said he is 'dangerous dude'?
Why are our cops never trained to shoot to disable a man they considered dangerous? Oops, silly question, the cops in NJ just did it.
But then, Oklahoma and North Carolina are still deep in the OK Corral mentality.
If these shootings by cops would target a white minority, that minority would also riot to show their anger and frustration over the racist double standard, and a few white 'thugs' would also loot Walmart.
And what about the biggest lie of all, that the shooter cop said she feared for her life because he was reaching into his car to get a weapon, while the windows were close? And the cherry on the cake that helicopter cops more than 100 feet above said he is 'dangerous dude'?
Why are our cops never trained to shoot to disable a man they considered dangerous? Oops, silly question, the cops in NJ just did it.
But then, Oklahoma and North Carolina are still deep in the OK Corral mentality.
If these shootings by cops would target a white minority, that minority would also riot to show their anger and frustration over the racist double standard, and a few white 'thugs' would also loot Walmart.
1
The Washington Post database of fatal police shootings shows that African Americans make up 24.5 percent of the 702 people shot and killed so far this year by police. Blacks make up only about 13 percent of the population, but the FBI Uniform Crime Report (Data Table 43: Arrests), shows that blacks make up about 37.7 percent of those arrested for violent crimes, including 51.3 percent of those arrested for murder and 55.9 percent of those arrested for robbery. Blacks make up a smaller proportion of police shooting victims than they do of arrests. New research (“An Empirical Analysis of Racial Differences in Police Use of Force”) recently cited by the New York Times shows no racial disparity in police-involved shootings.
http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/main-july_2016.pdf
http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/fryer/files/main-july_2016.pdf
5
Hope the BLM will read these unbiased statistics and help stop the looting
2
People do not have the right to resist arrest, period. If the cop is at fault, take him to court, go after the department after the fact via legal means, but do not impose your will during the incident. This always ends badly. There is a failure of leadership to identify this crucial aspect of dealing with the police to the public. My sense is the police are becoming a scapegoat for many other issues communities are dealing with across the country. I rarely see public rage displayed about inner city violence or any one of the mass shootings that we have dealt with as a country. But when it comes to the police, people are in an uproar immediately, and oddly enough the media is never held accountable.
8
I don't understand exactly what you mean by, "the media is never held accountable". Freedom of speech is one of the founding principles of our country. It is up to an informed public, to discern myth from fact. I don't know about you, but I question everything and always look to more than one source on important topics.
Wreaking havoc on society like animals and attacking authorities who are trying to protect the community from an armed dangerous criminal while the president shows zero leadership to restore order. Shameful.
5
There's a justice system in the United States. If every time someone is killed we resort to violence, we are in big trouble. Remember that police officers put their lives on line to keep us safe.
1
The police did not kill this guy for no reason. Most likely he pulled a gun or had a gun on him. The police were trying to arrest someone else the family says then why didn't they killed this man?
2
From NYT
'A statement from the Israeli Embassy said the assailant acted alone and tried to stab a Turkish police officer.
"One of the Turkish police officers situated in front of the Embassy responded immediately and shot the attacker in the foot in order to neutralize him," the embassy said. "The police officer's action brought the incident to an end."'
Why do our police tend to shoot to kill? Can they not be trained to immobilize suspects by even shooting in the foot or leg?
'A statement from the Israeli Embassy said the assailant acted alone and tried to stab a Turkish police officer.
"One of the Turkish police officers situated in front of the Embassy responded immediately and shot the attacker in the foot in order to neutralize him," the embassy said. "The police officer's action brought the incident to an end."'
Why do our police tend to shoot to kill? Can they not be trained to immobilize suspects by even shooting in the foot or leg?
2
It is clear that black are targets for the police, especially in the ex-Confederacy. Let's guess the outcome of the investigation: it will most likely show that the police were justified, if not, then prosecutors will sabotage the trial. How many police have been convicted for illegally killing black people? The police murders are a crime against humanity and people are taking to the streets because the justice system does not deliver. Consider what the Mossad would do if the citizens they protect were systematically being killed by police somewhere. Not one of the guilty would ever escape justice.
Here's the obvious problem - the elephant in the room - gun advocates say that everyone should be armed and that it will make us safer. As a result, police cannot shoot just because someone has a weapon. Once a state makes open carry the law, then police must wait until they are sure they are threatened before opening fire. This is a VERY difficult thing to do and the state needs to consider that when they make weapons widely available.
2
Why isn't the option of disarming police who are conducting regular business brought up more often? How many of these shootings would not have happened if the cops involved would have had to back off and consider their options instead of automatically reaching for their weapon? Have any politicians at any level proposed this idea? I was told as a youngster to be very careful around the police because they have guns, and would always find a way to justify their use if you got on their bad side. Imagine how different it would be if that weren't so.
The police obviously need to be better trained, or they have to hire more competent people. This is not so much a racist issue as it is an issue with officers being trigger happy. It seems to me like some of the officers get pleasure from pushing the trigger.
In America, police officers will often resolve issues with violence, even though this is not the best solution. My country, Norway, is a perfect example of how the police/civilian relationship ought to be. In Norway there is a deep respect for the police, at the same time as the police have great respect for its civilians.
It is deeply immoral to take a human life unless absolutely necessary. In this case, there was absolutely no reason as to why any logical human being would think it the best solution to kill a fellow person.
In America, police officers will often resolve issues with violence, even though this is not the best solution. My country, Norway, is a perfect example of how the police/civilian relationship ought to be. In Norway there is a deep respect for the police, at the same time as the police have great respect for its civilians.
It is deeply immoral to take a human life unless absolutely necessary. In this case, there was absolutely no reason as to why any logical human being would think it the best solution to kill a fellow person.
7
It's racist because of who is being killed and why. A brief glimpse at the history of policing in the American South will fill you in on the particulars. And that police/civilian relationship in Norway isn't so perfect and non-racist if you happen to be Muslim.
I have to more or less echo one of the earlier commenters...
Way to go, looters and arsonists, although I'm glad to see your rage is color-blind given that the police officer who shot the man was black -- you just moved North Carolina closer to Donald Trump. And I'm pretty sure that's not in the best interests of black North Carolinians.
Way to go, looters and arsonists, although I'm glad to see your rage is color-blind given that the police officer who shot the man was black -- you just moved North Carolina closer to Donald Trump. And I'm pretty sure that's not in the best interests of black North Carolinians.
7
Since you are so presumptuous to address black North Carolinians so dismissively, perhaps you can tell them what is currently in their best interests in maintaining the status quo? If a Trump presidency actually brings liberal white Americans such discomfort that they would finally take action instead of issuing dire warnings, I could definitely see pulling the lever for Trump.
1
And the hatred that Trump keeps spewing keeps growing. The hatred that Trump supporters had for Pres Obama keeps on growing. Race relations and the progress made under Obama, will disappear were Trump elected. Get out people and register and vote Clinton. For the sake of our our country. Our lives depend on it.
2
Im sorry, but please tell me this is sarcasm, because you forgot to blame Bush.
3
Cease with microaggressions referring to savages engaging in savage criminal behavior.
6
police need to be well trained. the concern must necessarily fall as well on suspects or stopped motorists who very simply, for whatever reason, do not comply with police orders.
When suspects do not comply -- the chance for a shooting goes up from .01% to about 90%. And this likelihood can increase over the course of a second or two.
This motorist shot by that female cop -- of course, if he was not armed or had a gun, it is a tragic shooting.
However, he would not do what the cops were telling him, screaming at him, to do.
This puts the chance of a shooting squarely in the "red zone," and near instantaneously.
There is NO rational reason to not listen to police orders. The causes of not listening? Drug impairment, mental illness, language barrier, deafness.
Not listening to police orders is an instant, expedited trip, to a gun being drawn on you, and the person holding that gun standing with pulse racing, pupils dilated, heart racing, breathing shallow and fast, and adrenaline showering his system with "fight or flight" sensations.
The black protestors, and black leaders should not protest when a man fails to comply with cops. It is 100% terrifying for police, and 100% avoidable by the suspect (except in cases above.)
When suspects do not comply -- the chance for a shooting goes up from .01% to about 90%. And this likelihood can increase over the course of a second or two.
This motorist shot by that female cop -- of course, if he was not armed or had a gun, it is a tragic shooting.
However, he would not do what the cops were telling him, screaming at him, to do.
This puts the chance of a shooting squarely in the "red zone," and near instantaneously.
There is NO rational reason to not listen to police orders. The causes of not listening? Drug impairment, mental illness, language barrier, deafness.
Not listening to police orders is an instant, expedited trip, to a gun being drawn on you, and the person holding that gun standing with pulse racing, pupils dilated, heart racing, breathing shallow and fast, and adrenaline showering his system with "fight or flight" sensations.
The black protestors, and black leaders should not protest when a man fails to comply with cops. It is 100% terrifying for police, and 100% avoidable by the suspect (except in cases above.)
7
"It identified the officer who fired his weapon as Brentley Vinson, an employee since July 2014. Officer Vinson is black, according to local reports."
Regardless, I wonder why the police seem to be so intent on killing, not wounding. Even when they face people with less lethal means. Why, why, why?
Regardless, I wonder why the police seem to be so intent on killing, not wounding. Even when they face people with less lethal means. Why, why, why?
1
O oops the NYT forgot to mention that the officer that did the shooting is black. How convenient.
13
Blow did likewise regarding his son.
3
Yes. He is a black police officer. The operative word is police. The complaints have been against the police - the institution. Certain racist elements, however, continue to racialize the issue as being one of white against black. Whether this is because white officers have disproportionally killed more unarmed black citizens than black police officers, or because they see the role of police as containing blacks for white benefit, I can't say. Nevertheless, it is interesting that you would find that tidbit pertinent to the narrative.
1
No, it's in there.
1
"Up you mighty race! You can accomplish what you will" Universal Negro Improvement Association.
During the era of humanity denying African enslavement in America local police departments began as slave catchers under the Fugitive Slave Act. At the end of Reconstruction local police in conspiracy with the KKK began an equality defying Jim Crow reign of white supremacist terror that left thousands of black men, women and children dead. The cops in America are a multihued army of white supremacist occupation and oppression over the black community. Blue cops against black civilians marks the battle front line.
With a badged, uniformed, armed law enforcement professional license to deprive of us of our equal certain unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness every reasonable doubt and presumption involved in any cop and civilian encounter should and must be resolved in favor of the civilians whom they are sworn to protect and serve. NWA had it all right about the police.
During the era of humanity denying African enslavement in America local police departments began as slave catchers under the Fugitive Slave Act. At the end of Reconstruction local police in conspiracy with the KKK began an equality defying Jim Crow reign of white supremacist terror that left thousands of black men, women and children dead. The cops in America are a multihued army of white supremacist occupation and oppression over the black community. Blue cops against black civilians marks the battle front line.
With a badged, uniformed, armed law enforcement professional license to deprive of us of our equal certain unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness every reasonable doubt and presumption involved in any cop and civilian encounter should and must be resolved in favor of the civilians whom they are sworn to protect and serve. NWA had it all right about the police.
1
An armed man who pointed a gun at the police. Lets not forget that. Or did the NYT just want to make sure to stoke the fire. I can't believe that I have to read the NY Post for factual reporting.
11
In a world where the loudest voices are those who would rather lose every right other than their interpretation of the 2nd Amendment, including their own lives, what other outcome could there possibly be? Anyone who thinks guns solve problems, you've shown me a fool.
Martin would be proud: protesting by looting trucks and a Walmart!
6
"Martin" was killed with a 30.06 outside room umber 306 in Memphis.
Even MLK had a breaking point. Blacks have followed his lead for decades.
Maybe that's why he's dead.
Even MLK had a breaking point. Blacks have followed his lead for decades.
Maybe that's why he's dead.
We have reached an alarming state (actually we reached it long before this) with unarmed black men being killed by white police officers. (Even if they are armed, so are millions of Americans, white Americans, and no one is killing them, so the armed thing is just another excuse.) It is also no excuse that white policemen and policewomen feel frightened by black people as the media is now reporting as the latest excuse. If they feel frightened they need to resign rather than murder people. Policemen expect to feel frightened; the NYC police officers who were going after the terrorist this weekend were no doubt frightened, but they still did their jobs and shot only to maim, not to kill. The President needs to get on Air Force One and fly to these cities each time such killings happen and meet with police and address the situation. He has said he must be President to all the people; well black people are the people too, and he isn't addressing this creeping mess at all by simply letting the Justice Department look into it. I am white. I am sickened by this. My white friends are sickened by it. My white husband is sickened by it. We are part of all the people and we are saying to the President: DO SOMETHING. DO IT NOW. ENOUGH. It is not a debate whether black lives matter. It is a fact. This is a mess, and something needs to be done. NOW. The whole world is watching.
3
Cops killed nearly twice as many whites as blacks in 2015. According to data compiled by The Washington Post, 50 percent of the victims of fatal police shootings were white, while 26 percent were black.
Some may argue that these statistics are evidence of racist treatment toward blacks, since whites consist of 62 percent of the population and blacks make up 13 percent of the population. But Justice Statistics reveal that blacks were charged with 62 percent of robberies, 57 percent of murders and 45 percent of assaults in the 75 biggest counties in the country, despite only comprising roughly 15 percent of the population in these counties.
Some may argue that these statistics are evidence of racist treatment toward blacks, since whites consist of 62 percent of the population and blacks make up 13 percent of the population. But Justice Statistics reveal that blacks were charged with 62 percent of robberies, 57 percent of murders and 45 percent of assaults in the 75 biggest counties in the country, despite only comprising roughly 15 percent of the population in these counties.
5
Wake me up when there's a riot over black on black murder.
8
I don't think you really want to never be woken up. Black on black murder doesn't matter, remember.
3
Is this article news or commentary? The author clearly is perpetuating the false narrative that Cops are targeting Blacks and killing them. The data on police shootings does not support this narrative. Cops kill more Whites than Blacks, although the killl disproportionately more Blacks -- but that is due to the higher Black violent crime rate (Blacks commit murder at 7x the rate of Whites). Further, the cop who shot the victim was Black.
We can argue all day about whether cops are overly aggressive. But, the facts are pretty straight forward. The police have millions of encounters with civilians every year. A tiny fraction of this end up with a cop killing someone. And almost all of these homicides are not murders, they are justified shootings as the person had a weapon, was attacking the cops or resisting arrest. A small number are not justified, but aren't intentional murders -- they're the result of a bad judgment made under enormous stress.
The looters, rioters and thugs who took to the streets are reacting not to police brutality but to the constant exhortations of race mongers in the media.
And why doesn't the headline read -- "Riots and looting erupt after a Black Cop kills a gun wielding Black man" --- wouldn't that be more accurate?
We can argue all day about whether cops are overly aggressive. But, the facts are pretty straight forward. The police have millions of encounters with civilians every year. A tiny fraction of this end up with a cop killing someone. And almost all of these homicides are not murders, they are justified shootings as the person had a weapon, was attacking the cops or resisting arrest. A small number are not justified, but aren't intentional murders -- they're the result of a bad judgment made under enormous stress.
The looters, rioters and thugs who took to the streets are reacting not to police brutality but to the constant exhortations of race mongers in the media.
And why doesn't the headline read -- "Riots and looting erupt after a Black Cop kills a gun wielding Black man" --- wouldn't that be more accurate?
8
With Ebola or Zika epidemics, we seek the remedy from medical experts at the NIH. Where are America's legal experts on how to reform our broken police system? Are the black legal scholars? Black America is hurting, where are the so-called experts to help fix this absolutely broken system? This is the civil rights call of our time, who will step up to this challenge?
1
I'm wondering why police keep shooting to kill? I mean are police officers really bad shots and have little training in firearms? Or are they deliberately killing so that there is no courtroom appearance, no embarrassment of the police force and state officials? No chance that the police will be found guilty if the victim can't show up in court. The police are literally trying to kill off the conversation of racism and justice that would take place if they just shot the victim with intention to harm. I'm really starting to wonder if there was a national wide memo sent to all police forces giving the ok to shoot to kill???? Because you would think with all the bad press and protests coming their way that the police would STOP SHOOTING BLACK MEN. But they're not...
19
Police are trained to shoot to kill only, and not to wound. They are trained to NOT use their guns if there is no deadly threat. They ARE excellent shots and are trained and re-trained every year on these procedures.
1
Right? NYC bombing suspect wounded in a shootout and the taxpayer picks up his medical bills and cost of incarceration. Guess they did not want to upset ISIS, I mean ISIL, I mean Daesh...and took him as a prisoner of war?
1
Quiet -- why don't you try being a cop facing someone with a weapon. Sure, maybe you'd like to be nice and shoot for the elbow - and hope that the person doesn't kill you while you're shooting to maim. But the reality is, under duress, most people aren't that good a shot. The first thing you want to do is bring the bad guy down. You don't aim for the head or the toe -- you aim for the middle of the body -- which presents the largest target and the least likelihood of missing.
And it's not just about a cop being afraid for their own lives. Let's say someone is in the process of robbing a bank or store. They have a gun, a cop walks in, the robber points his or her gun at the cop -- now if the cop shoots to maim and instead ends up being killed or incapacitated by the robber --at that point what happens? We don't know, neither does the cop. But one outcome could be the robber decides to get rid of witnesses.
In any event -- you pull a gun on a cop -- attack them -- you've already crossed the line and the cops will do what they have to do to stop you.
And it's not just about a cop being afraid for their own lives. Let's say someone is in the process of robbing a bank or store. They have a gun, a cop walks in, the robber points his or her gun at the cop -- now if the cop shoots to maim and instead ends up being killed or incapacitated by the robber --at that point what happens? We don't know, neither does the cop. But one outcome could be the robber decides to get rid of witnesses.
In any event -- you pull a gun on a cop -- attack them -- you've already crossed the line and the cops will do what they have to do to stop you.
2
The entire problem is "reflex shooting" training.
When cops are trained, what color is the figure on the target? Black against a white background. How about printing up new targets with a pretty, young, blond, white, woman against a black background?
You have all heard the National Rifle Association slogan: "Guns Are Fun For Everyone". When guns are, "Not Fun For Anyone", the police will be brought under control.
When cops are trained, what color is the figure on the target? Black against a white background. How about printing up new targets with a pretty, young, blond, white, woman against a black background?
You have all heard the National Rifle Association slogan: "Guns Are Fun For Everyone". When guns are, "Not Fun For Anyone", the police will be brought under control.
3
When I saw this video it made me so mad I wanted to go to Wall Mart and grab a TV.
8
Black men get shot because people fear black men. Most whites - consciously or unconsciously - register at least a thread of nervousness around black men. This fear-of-black-men phenomenon is present to some extent within other Amercan ethnic groups. But it reaches straight paranoia with whites.
American police departments also operate as quasi-militaristic soldiers on the "front lines" of our drug and terror "wars."
> Well, there's your problem
American police departments also operate as quasi-militaristic soldiers on the "front lines" of our drug and terror "wars."
> Well, there's your problem
4
Would it enhance your position if you knew that, in fact, the policeman was black??
8
@PogoWasRight
Re: black officer
Covered this in my comment, though I was not explicit in mentioning blacks in the interest of brevity. I do not believe black Americans fear black men by the same mechanism that makes whites uncomfortable. Nor would I classify it as fear. More culturally generated suspicion, vs fear.
"This fear-of-black-men phenomenon is present to some extent within other Amercan ethnic groups."
Re: black officer
Covered this in my comment, though I was not explicit in mentioning blacks in the interest of brevity. I do not believe black Americans fear black men by the same mechanism that makes whites uncomfortable. Nor would I classify it as fear. More culturally generated suspicion, vs fear.
"This fear-of-black-men phenomenon is present to some extent within other Amercan ethnic groups."
1
Why don't whites fear Asian men?
4
The whole problem here is that this country is awash in guns and weapons of war. The most important thing we can do as a nation is to urge your congressman and senator to instate reasonable gun laws that will protect citizens and police alike. Needless shootings do not occur in other nations because the whole citizenry is not armed to the teeth. Try a little common sense people, and see a solution staring us in the face. Offer cash for guns and get them off the streets once again. This not only will cut the chances of police firing first and asking questions later, it would reduce the number of accidental deaths of youngsters finding a gun in their own homes and shooting themselves and siblings nearby. You don't need to stand your ground against the neighborhood whatever skin color you have.
2
Fact 10 000 unarmed Americans have been gunned down by Police since 9-11.
Over in Winooski Vermont Police this week shot another unarmed White male. Recently Vermont Cops broke into a home and shot a mental patient to death. Also another Vermont shooting shows the person was shot eight times including in the back while holding a cell phone by the cops.
The theme is clear. Whether armed or Unarmed Police protect their own.
How else could the Vermont State police say a unarmed person shot in the back (8 times)was a legit shooting. The shooting in Winooski they claimed the unarmed victim was known to carry a gun. He was shot on a Hunch! That's murder.
ps Vermont police also resolved an argument over a rose bush, by shooting another person off their meds. You want me to go on?
Over in Winooski Vermont Police this week shot another unarmed White male. Recently Vermont Cops broke into a home and shot a mental patient to death. Also another Vermont shooting shows the person was shot eight times including in the back while holding a cell phone by the cops.
The theme is clear. Whether armed or Unarmed Police protect their own.
How else could the Vermont State police say a unarmed person shot in the back (8 times)was a legit shooting. The shooting in Winooski they claimed the unarmed victim was known to carry a gun. He was shot on a Hunch! That's murder.
ps Vermont police also resolved an argument over a rose bush, by shooting another person off their meds. You want me to go on?
1
Go on, please.....Could you tell us - of all people "gunned down", how many were Black? How many White? How many Latinos? etc. You have used a very broad brush to not reveal more facts about the cases you mention....
2
Geez. I'm curious as to how many white people have been shot by police in the last two weeks. The videos the last couple of years seem to indicate that police are very ready to consider a black man a threat. The comment by the cop in the helicopter in Tulsa, "He looks like a bad dude." He's 200 ft. in the air, all he can see is a large black man- his first thought? "Bad dude"
I think that reveals way too much about Tulsa cops' views on black men in general. There is just no way this man would have been shot if he was white. And he wouldn't have been treated like a "Bad dude."
I think that reveals way too much about Tulsa cops' views on black men in general. There is just no way this man would have been shot if he was white. And he wouldn't have been treated like a "Bad dude."
4
White people just aren't shot by cops. The cops hold their fire. It's race war against African Americans--that's the history of America, pure and simple.
My guess if the victim had been a big white biker the cops would use the "bad dude" comment also. Not everything is about race.
1
I am a white male who grew up in the U.S during the sixties. Observing the Civil Rights movement I certainly admired the moral righteousness of Martin Luther KIng but I have not been able to let go of the idea that it was the Riots during those years that was the stick ending Laws holding Black America down. I am not condoning violence, but it certainly has gotten our attention. Now where is the Carrot for these times?
2
No significant civil rights legislation was passed after the 1968 riots.
4
As usual, all sorts of people have an opinion as to what happened. I hope there are videos that clarifies the matter. Until then, any opinion anyone has is just that, an opinion that is not based on fact.
4
We know from prior experience that African Americans are always the victims of extrajudicial executions by white cops. Amadou Dialo - 41 shots; Amadou Dialo white racist cops!
"...A police spokesman did not respond to an after-hours inquiry about whether a dashboard or body camera had recorded the shooting." If this report is accurate that spokesman or whoever he reports to should be fired. He's a spokesman. He should already know what questions will be asked - and if there were cameras he should say something like "yes, and the footage will be released tomorrow."
2
Why not contain your patience and stop urging that a person whom you do not know have their lives ruined because they didn't jump when the media said to.
2
" Video from local television early Wednesday showed some demonstrators looting trucks that had been stopped on the highway and setting fire to the cargo."
The mayor says:
“The community deserves answers and full investigation will ensue".
does this mean that looters and rioters will also be "investigated"?
The mayor says:
“The community deserves answers and full investigation will ensue".
does this mean that looters and rioters will also be "investigated"?
9
So no book, but a gun found. This is beginning to feel like "hands up, don't shoot," all over again. And instead of waiting for facts, and for the scene to even be examined,"protestors", attack, destroy cars, loot a Walmart,(which did not shoot the person) and then go on the highway, and rob and loot trucks. All before any real sense has been amde. No doubt, the BLM,NAACP, Colin and the rest of the sports protestors will have judged the police and found them guilty. And Trump will gain another million votes, and 5 more percent of the votes,due to the footage of the looting, and robbing.
13
The policeman involved in this shooting is Black.....she will not be found guilty......
2
Guns are very legal in NC.
1
Don't worry the NYT is here to promote this event as protests following another racist police killing
2
I know it's not possible (union, bluewall,..) but I'd honestly like to hear from cops/ex-cops that have been involved in this incidents but didn't shoot?
When the victim was unarmed, Toy Gun, in the back, walking in a store,...
When the victim was unarmed, Toy Gun, in the back, walking in a store,...
2
Officer Steven McDonald didn't shoot because the person with the gun was a 15 year old kid. Steven McDonald has been a paraplegic, breathing through a tube in his throat ever since because the kid had no such reluctance.
There are good cops and there are bad cops, probably in the same percentage as workers in every other profession. Try walking a mile in a cop's shoes before making any more assumptions; I bet Officer McDonald would like to take just one single step again.
There are good cops and there are bad cops, probably in the same percentage as workers in every other profession. Try walking a mile in a cop's shoes before making any more assumptions; I bet Officer McDonald would like to take just one single step again.
1
This is not solely about race relations and law enforcement. It's also about the relationships between law enforcement and the communities it serves. If they expect innocent people to obey them those people have to be able to trust them and to know that they are being stopped for a good reason, not just DWB or being African American. Even the guilty deserve to make it to the station in one piece if they behave themselves. What we're seeing is the result of law enforcement becoming militarized and focusing on something other than just serving the community.
As a white person I don't have as much to worry about but I still feel afraid. What if I'm stopped and the officer tries to provoke me? What if my handicapped brother is stopped and the officer decides that he's being uncooperative when he's not? What if I'm with a black person and that person is searched while I'm not? How do I respond? Should I bother to ask for the badge number? Should I even look at it and make a mental note? Law enforcement officials are creating serious problems for themselves when they hurt or kill unarmed people. Years ago it might have been dismissed because there weren't cameras in phones. Now we see it and it's frightening. There are so many ways law enforcement can make things better yet lately most of what we're seeing is how they push people into corners, don't handle situations well, and kill as a result of their poor handling. Something needs to change.
As a white person I don't have as much to worry about but I still feel afraid. What if I'm stopped and the officer tries to provoke me? What if my handicapped brother is stopped and the officer decides that he's being uncooperative when he's not? What if I'm with a black person and that person is searched while I'm not? How do I respond? Should I bother to ask for the badge number? Should I even look at it and make a mental note? Law enforcement officials are creating serious problems for themselves when they hurt or kill unarmed people. Years ago it might have been dismissed because there weren't cameras in phones. Now we see it and it's frightening. There are so many ways law enforcement can make things better yet lately most of what we're seeing is how they push people into corners, don't handle situations well, and kill as a result of their poor handling. Something needs to change.
6
This shooting could be incompetence, murder or completely justified. We have a justice system, however imperfect, and we have to let it work. I have great sympathy for the family and friends of Mr. Scott, but none for the rioters who destroy their own community. Do we never learn not to rush to judgment about a shooting?
Too many, especially the media and gov't leaders sugarcoat their response or even encourage violence because of the history of oppression. Our president should angrily denounce the violence without giving it backhanded support. I could understand in the past justification in the past for violence, but even in the '50s and '60s a great man, MLK, Jr., with others, rose above that natural response and led a just campaign, greatly improving our country. I cannot understand it in an era where we have a black president and many minority police officers, chiefs and anti-discrimination laws. King is rolling in his grave.
I am glad some commenters are revolted by the violence. It is sad others feel it justified. Too many people sit silently or tread gently about the violence and intimidation because of the fear of being called a racist or they even buy into the narrative that police are targeting and murdering black men. There are great civil rights leaders out there. But, they are barely heard because they do not feed the narrative of victimization. That the media should remedy.
Too many, especially the media and gov't leaders sugarcoat their response or even encourage violence because of the history of oppression. Our president should angrily denounce the violence without giving it backhanded support. I could understand in the past justification in the past for violence, but even in the '50s and '60s a great man, MLK, Jr., with others, rose above that natural response and led a just campaign, greatly improving our country. I cannot understand it in an era where we have a black president and many minority police officers, chiefs and anti-discrimination laws. King is rolling in his grave.
I am glad some commenters are revolted by the violence. It is sad others feel it justified. Too many people sit silently or tread gently about the violence and intimidation because of the fear of being called a racist or they even buy into the narrative that police are targeting and murdering black men. There are great civil rights leaders out there. But, they are barely heard because they do not feed the narrative of victimization. That the media should remedy.
5
White people denounced black protest when King was alive too.
Rather than cynically invoke a dead Black civil rights leader whom apparently you have not read, why don't you read what MLK actually said about riots?
"But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear?...It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity."
Rather than cynically invoke a dead Black civil rights leader whom apparently you have not read, why don't you read what MLK actually said about riots?
"But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear?...It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice and humanity."
1
Have the police today ever heard of the term 'knee-capping'?
Why are they constantly shooting to kill rather than maiming?
Better training would help alleviate these types of events.
It is literally overkill.
Why are they constantly shooting to kill rather than maiming?
Better training would help alleviate these types of events.
It is literally overkill.
2
Because if you shoot at a knee, a very small target compared with a person's trunk, the bullet then proceeds to ricochet and endanger other people. Meanwhile the perp, who you missed, just shot you. He didn't aim at your knee.
3
Officers are taught to aim for the most body mass. The thinking is that if you aim for an extremity, you're more likely to miss and thus not disable the person, and the bullet is more likely to continue on its way and strike a bystander.
4
Even for a trained police person it is difficult to hit a small target in a stressfull situation. They are not shooting to kill but to stop the threat by shooting center mass. The low power pistol rounds most police carry require more than one shot to do this.
2
I watched the videos on this incident- this man had his hands up, back turned and was fully cooperating with the police. He was deliberately tazed for no reason then killed in cold blood. Whether or not he may have had a gun, which is doubtful, is irreverent.
The cops in the helicopter were even joking about what they apparently knew was going to happen.
It was horrific.
The cops in the helicopter were even joking about what they apparently knew was going to happen.
It was horrific.
3
You are referring to the video of an incident in Tulsa OK not Charotte NC.
4
Looting and destructive mob behavior is a symptom of rage in those who experience marginalization and repression. I am not justifying it. Innocents will be hurt and property destroyed. However, when individuals so readily embrace violence and anarchy, we must look carefully at the forces that have left them so vulnerable to mob rule. This is the behavior of people who experience themselves as permanent outsiders who are seen as "other" by mainstream society. It is the behavior of those who see no hope of acceptance or belonging.
14
Capitalism in it's current form is destroying democracy and it turn failing a huge portion of US society. Poor whites and blacks have heard enough rhetoric from the establishment and are demonstrating that in different ways. 2016 will go down as one of the darkest in this nation's history. Everyone please be careful/peaceful out there in NC.
4
I do think racial profiling goes on but the daughter says "the police just shot my daddy four times for being black". But Officer Vinson is black. Would he be shooting her father because her father was black, being black himself? I don't get that.
16
Black people, just like white people, can wholeheartedly believe in black inferiority and sub human standing. Case in point , Sheriff Clarke.
1
What is it with the Tar Heel state lately? They've just been voted "Most Racist State in the US" by a Top Ten's website, and it seems as though Jessie Helms and Lauch Faircloth are still prancing around the capital buildings in white sheets. This is NOT the NC I lived in 14 years ago in the Raleigh suburb of Cary (also known by the acronym: Containment Area for Relocated Yankees). Sure, it was more churches than bars, but I lived among black, Asian, Indian and Russian homeowners and everyone was friendly, helpful and kind.
Maybe the feds can step in a re-train these police officers to resist negative stereotyping and DE-escalate situations instead of going to the gun first. Failing that, the courts can mandate they attend a 12 step program such as Racists Anonymous.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/racists-anonymous-meeting-concord-no...
Maybe the feds can step in a re-train these police officers to resist negative stereotyping and DE-escalate situations instead of going to the gun first. Failing that, the courts can mandate they attend a 12 step program such as Racists Anonymous.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/racists-anonymous-meeting-concord-no...
3
Great point, Steve, since everyone knows that New Jersey is a bastion of racial harmony and economic equality. But I understand your angst, as it much be tough seeing your neighbors flee the exorbitant taxes, thuggish municipal unions and spectacular public corruption. From 2010 to 2015 270,000 more people voted with their feet and moved out of New Jersey than moved in, the largest domestic out-migration except for New York and Illinois.
http://www.njfuture.org/2016/03/17/nj-pop-growth/
A lot of those decamped to “The Most Racist State in the US” where we welcome their intellectual capital and ability to contribute to our tax base. Maybe they can occasionally send a few dollars back up north the way that immigrants support families they left behind in Third World.
http://www.njfuture.org/2016/03/17/nj-pop-growth/
A lot of those decamped to “The Most Racist State in the US” where we welcome their intellectual capital and ability to contribute to our tax base. Maybe they can occasionally send a few dollars back up north the way that immigrants support families they left behind in Third World.
1
The shooting officer was black and the victim was black, That is just mentioned in passing. I'd say it's a pretty critical fact.
14
If we have learned anything from these incidents we have to wait for the full facts to emerge before passing judgement.
14
Baloney. Arrest the cop and put him on trial just like anyone else. Then you will have your facts, not stalling for cool-off time and hoping everyone forgets.
1
Tell that to the looters on the interstate.
3
Arresting and trying the cop who killed would be a more appropriate judging of facts than a police department whitewash.
The issue of race in America was born in 1619 and it hasn't died yet. Will it ever die? Probably not. There are racists in both camps. Common sense would indicate that although we have gotten more in accepting of the other we will never forget that they are the other. Most readers of the NY Times may be color blind but most Americans do not read the NY Times.
4
The police are damned if they do and damned if they don't. Keith Scott was armed with a handgun and the police will shoot you if you are armed and not listening to their directives. Extreme force, goes with this type of confrontation. Waiting for the Keith Scott to actually point and fire in the direction of the police officer, isn't needed for the PO to use their weapon and end the confrontation. I guess, more facts will surface and hopefully good audio and video from start to finish. Rioting and destroying cargo from a Semi on the interstate, is mob mentality and should've been put down with strong tear gas rounds fired into the crowd.
8
When I was in college in the late '60's, I had a black friend named Luther. (I'm white). Luther hated the police. I mean HATED. I once asked him why. It turned out that his younger brother was involved in some kind of disorderly conduct one night and the (all white) police came. They were informed that Luther's brother was retarded (or had some other mental disability) -- and that was why he was acting strange. He had no weapon. The police shot and killed him anyway. For no reason. Happened in Elyria, Ohio.
I remember not quite believing this story back in the day. Surely Luther was exaggerating something. But now, fifty years later, cameras are everywhere and it could not be clearer that there are police all over the United States who continue half a century later to shoot and kill black people for absolutely no reason. Chicago, Cincinnati, Tulsa, Charlotte -- the list goes on and on and on.
THIS HAS GOT TO STOP.
Well now cameras are everywhere and I'm ashamed of myself for ever doubting an iota of it.
I remember not quite believing this story back in the day. Surely Luther was exaggerating something. But now, fifty years later, cameras are everywhere and it could not be clearer that there are police all over the United States who continue half a century later to shoot and kill black people for absolutely no reason. Chicago, Cincinnati, Tulsa, Charlotte -- the list goes on and on and on.
THIS HAS GOT TO STOP.
Well now cameras are everywhere and I'm ashamed of myself for ever doubting an iota of it.
14
Integration is a failed experiment. Unless you have only black cops in black neighborhoods, there will always be a black man killed by a white cop at one point or another. Its just a statistical reality. I fear we are returning to segregation where Dorms at university of California can be black only and black neighborhoods will only be policed by other blacks. Can black only parks and water fountains be far behind?
4
In this case it was a black man killed by a black cop. So if we segregated the police force by race, wouldn't that just change all the shootings of black men by police into shootings of black men by black police officers? I don't see how that helps matters.
1
The riots are a result of people's loss in faith in the system. I can't remember a cop who was actually found guilty and punished for killing an unarmed civilian. Cities can limit the riots and build trust to some degree by instituting strong community policing measures. But we really need to address the underlying, systemic problems that cause these all-too-frequent tragedies.
.
I wonder if part of it should be to replace the internal affairs departments within local law enforcement agencies with a branch of the FBI. Then also take the prosecution in these cases entirely away from local DAs and put it in Federal hands, too. Independent police watchdog groups seldom have the teeth to do anything meaningful, and they are too politically fraught.
.
I wonder if part of it should be to replace the internal affairs departments within local law enforcement agencies with a branch of the FBI. Then also take the prosecution in these cases entirely away from local DAs and put it in Federal hands, too. Independent police watchdog groups seldom have the teeth to do anything meaningful, and they are too politically fraught.
25
"The riots are a result of people's loss in faith in the system. I can't remember a cop who was actually found guilty and punished for killing an unarmed civilian."
true, but a very large percentage of crimes committed by blacks go unsolved. Do you also condemn those?
true, but a very large percentage of crimes committed by blacks go unsolved. Do you also condemn those?
3
Riots accomplish nothing. The media should focus on waiting until the facts are released. We can all make assumptions. Regardless of the outcome, we not seeing meaningful demonstrations like those orchestrated by MLK. We see looters and delinquents taking advantage of the situation and breaking the law. The police protect us - they make mistakes - but to riot and loot, brings more animosity from the police. Regarding 'why police shoot to kill', unfortunately, if someone's pointing a loaded firearm at you, you may not have the luxury of shooting to disable. Try being a policeman in the inner city for 24 hours - step into their shoes for a moment.
8
Responding to the bevy of comments saying, "Why doesn't the NYT mention that twice as many white people are killed by police than black people?"
I think that's a great idea! Here are the actual statistics.
Twice as many white people are killed as black people by police. 50% of police killings are white people, 26% are black.
Now, in the population at large, 62% are white, and 13% are black. There are almost five times as many white people in the USA as black people.
So doing the math, if you are black, you are about two and a half times more likely than a white person to be killed by a cop.
Are you happy now?
I think that's a great idea! Here are the actual statistics.
Twice as many white people are killed as black people by police. 50% of police killings are white people, 26% are black.
Now, in the population at large, 62% are white, and 13% are black. There are almost five times as many white people in the USA as black people.
So doing the math, if you are black, you are about two and a half times more likely than a white person to be killed by a cop.
Are you happy now?
14
Jam T -- you are correct except you leave out one vital statistic -- the violent crime rate for Blacks is much higher than Whites (7x the murder rate). So, cops tend to go where the crimes are committed and have antagonistic encounters with people who commit violent crimes. If Blacks are over-represented in the violent crime statistics (or any other group) they are likely to be over represented in police statistics -- including killings by police.
If you are going to correct for population size -- which you should -- you also have to correct for activities that bring about deadly encounters with police. You can't have it both ways.
If you are going to correct for population size -- which you should -- you also have to correct for activities that bring about deadly encounters with police. You can't have it both ways.
10
Who says that the measurement should be proportional and not absolute? I think that the point is that many people are affected by the same issue regardless of their race. Finally, the statistics that you're evoking do not account for the circumstances around the police shooting - they include situations where the police were in imminent danger when confronted with a deadly situation in the line of duty (although I'm not sure how eliminating those cases would affect the racial breakdown of likelihood of being shot).
Surely it has nothing to do with the fact that black men are five times more likely to commit crimes that will send them in jail than white people? http://bit.ly/2cUZRZG
1
These killings are probably because police departments are hiring seasoned killers back from wars.
but the goons doing most of the kiilings in inner city areas (i.e., their residents) have not military experience. How do you explain the action of these goons (who are not veterans)?
Police have one job: to protect the citizenry. They signed up to stand between us and the bad guys and take that shot for us if they must (that's why they wear bullet-proof vests and we don't).
That's why we laud/praise/admire them, pay taxes so they can care for their own and own a home and serve as examples to us and our families and neighbors. None of us ordinary folks wants to see them injured or killed.
But neither do we want the rule to be "the policeman can sacrifice the life of a citizen -- regardless of his/her age, social and financial status, and race or religion -- if he "feels" threatened.
You gotta have a better reason than that, or you're in the wrong trade.
That's why we laud/praise/admire them, pay taxes so they can care for their own and own a home and serve as examples to us and our families and neighbors. None of us ordinary folks wants to see them injured or killed.
But neither do we want the rule to be "the policeman can sacrifice the life of a citizen -- regardless of his/her age, social and financial status, and race or religion -- if he "feels" threatened.
You gotta have a better reason than that, or you're in the wrong trade.
3
With all the focus on terrorism, has anyone done a comparison to see who has killed more innocent Americans this year, the police or international terrorists?
7
A black policeman shoots a black person menacing him with a pistol. How is this "racism"? When a policeman approaches a suspect or anyone who is asked to stop and show ID, they are not going to spend a whole lot of time deciding what to do when they see the other person with a weapon. They will shoot first. So here we go again. Yet another black person commits suicide-by-policeman. And the leftist ideologues swing into action.
14
don't forget the racial ideologues. For them whites are the source of all evil. No matter the fact that in large urban areas blacks kill blacks many times more times than whites kill blacks.
1
Of reasons or excuses for rioting, looting, burning, there are none.
Contradict me on this: The NRA wanted Keith Scott to be armed, whether he was or not. Everybody should be armed, and ready to ride to the rescue, pistol blazing, at any moment. The police, already paranoid that every person they encounter wants them dead, respond as if every person they encounter is reaching for their weapon. We have reached the state where a police officer's job one is to stay alive at all costs; job two is to enforce the law while God sorts out the result of job one.
Contradict me on this: The NRA wanted Keith Scott to be armed, whether he was or not. Everybody should be armed, and ready to ride to the rescue, pistol blazing, at any moment. The police, already paranoid that every person they encounter wants them dead, respond as if every person they encounter is reaching for their weapon. We have reached the state where a police officer's job one is to stay alive at all costs; job two is to enforce the law while God sorts out the result of job one.
9
Why didn't Andy Taylor wear a gun?
The reporting here is so biased and incendiary that it unnecessarily provokes and encourages the protesters. The facts are downplayed while statements made by family members - like those of the daughter - are highlighted. I'm sickened to read such an article. How can people see the circumstances of this shooting and immediately conclude, as does "Ken B." that "this type of police shootings will continue"... and "there is a pervasive attitude in the police culture that perpetuates the idea that the life of a police officer is far more sacred....". I'm blown away by these views...
Dr. King promoted non-violent protests; not looting and destruction of local shops owned by hard working people. How does this make sense?
Dr. King promoted non-violent protests; not looting and destruction of local shops owned by hard working people. How does this make sense?
21
Interesting that the country's largest police union has wholeheartedly endorsed the candidacy of Donald Trump .
6
Why is it interesting that they do not support a candidate who supports the belief that every single cop shooting is racially motivated and who believes that no black man ever brought a shooting upon himself?
1
considering Hillary's lack of support for the police is this not to be expected? You should remember her for not even condemning her "civil rights" husband's decision not to bring the DOJ into action agains those who attacked Reginald Denny in LA or Korean merchants there during the Rodney King riots. Apparantly racism is condemned by her only against the right race.
1
Parsing this story into comprehension is difficult. The overtones are that this is a racially motivated killing but yet the offending officer himself is black. On that basis, black officer shoots innocent black civilian, there are racial accusations eg “The police just shot my daddy four times for being black”. I believe this story is premature and attempting to draw conclusions with far too little fact. Why would a black officer shoot an unarmed black civilian? Why would he shoot FOUR times? This wasnt a random murder, that black officer felt threatened. But fast forward. Lets say that black officer is charged with murder and convicted. How many white officers have been convicted of shooting / killing a black man? Perhaps the real racism would be to find the black officer guilty of doing essentially the same thing as white officers who have been acquitted. THEN there would be riots.
12
Not saying in this instance at all but they're folks that are White, that don't like Whites, Blacks that don't like Blacks, Latinos that don't like Latinos,...
Prejudice, Bigotry, and stereotyping isn't exclusive.
Prejudice, Bigotry, and stereotyping isn't exclusive.
1
The shooting was the latest in a long string of deaths of black people at the hands of the police.
______
The Times' agenda is transparent.
______
The Times' agenda is transparent.
22
Don't you think the race of the shooter is important in this matter? In this case the shooter is Black.......
Why police shot several times until killed the subject? One bullet as a warning could stop any further action.
3
What if they missed and the criminal had a gun? Then it's open season on the officers who stop shooting
Simple acknowledgement of the police and following directions would have prevented the outcome without a single shot being fired. Same for Tulsa.
I call on Black Lives matter and their allies to strongly and immediately condemn the violent protests and looting that resulted from this incident.
The shooting should be investigated, and if the police acted inappropriately they should be held accountable and brought to justice. Violence and looting disgrace the memory of the victim and detract from the cause.
The shooting should be investigated, and if the police acted inappropriately they should be held accountable and brought to justice. Violence and looting disgrace the memory of the victim and detract from the cause.
47
Eventually a defense (in one) of these (unfortunate) killings in court will be, "At least Officer ___ didn't shoot a kid armed with a Toy Gun."
1
Title should be "Protest Devolves to Riot and Mayhem" Not helping to make the case. Reinforcing animosity and mistrust. Cementing negative impressions. Justifying stereotypes.
13
For the first time I can recall, a now viral tweet from Middletown, OH Police Chief Muterspaw has explicitly acknowledged that the police who continue to shoot men of color are "making all of us look bad." Let us stipulate that the police have a nearly impossible, dangerous job: they have become the de facto supplement to municipal coffers for ridiculous, minor infractions due to the right wing mania for endless tax slashing - which starves municipalities of much needed revenue; the police have become the armed social service brigade for every mental health and addiction problem inadequately addressed in our communities and nationally; the police are frequently outgunned by the NRA's insistence that no gun restrictions are ever acceptable. We must also accept, however, that the police are fully complicit in their ongoing failure to aggressively screen recruits, by failing to remedy a culture of racism, sexism, and bigotry permeating their ranks across the nation, and their reflexive, knee jerk Blue Wall of Silence protects dangerous, incompetent and rogue cops and almost always fails to kick them out. The policies of "paid administrative leave" and lack of transparency or accountability permits a culture of lies, evidence planting, and victim blaming to supersede all else. If Chief Muterspaw's tweet isn't a wake up call to police departments all over the country, I don't know what will be.
6
Why don't we all try a novel approach: wait until all the facts are presented before rushing to judgment. Instead, the media loves to fan the flames. We've reached a point where if the police have a deadly encounter with a person of color, the police are immediately painted as brutal racists. What is very interesting is the lack of outrage when the facts are actually well established. For example, the outrageous murder in SC of the black man running from the officer, who shot him in the back. Yes, there was anger as there should be, but it didn't cause riots because the cop was arrested and charged fairly quickly. There will always be deadly results from some police confrontations. As a society, we need to WAIT to allow the facts to emerge before rushing to condemn.
35
I learned everything I needed to know about police from Tamir Rice.
Violent looters benefit Trump.
12
I'm not buying the family's story. If the police was there to serve an arrest warrant on someone else in the building, how/why did a bystander become involved in the scenario unless he injected himself into the situation through provocation? If the assertion of the protesters is that it was just a murder, then the cop had to have pulled out his gun and just shot the guy for the heck of it. I'm not buying it.
19
As long as a person has a gun and shoot and kills someone,...they'll always be a reason, for every outcome-there's always a reason.
1
According to this article:
“Officers observed the subject get back into the vehicle, at which time they began to approach the subject,” the department said in its first statement about the shooting. “The subject got back out of the vehicle armed with a firearm and posed an imminent deadly threat to the officers, who subsequently fired their weapon, striking the subject.”
Are you saying that getting out of your vehicle carrying a firearm in an open carry state is "injecting" oneself and a "provocation?" The police have yet to explain why and how they approached this person who was not committing a crime.
Black Lives Matter
“Officers observed the subject get back into the vehicle, at which time they began to approach the subject,” the department said in its first statement about the shooting. “The subject got back out of the vehicle armed with a firearm and posed an imminent deadly threat to the officers, who subsequently fired their weapon, striking the subject.”
Are you saying that getting out of your vehicle carrying a firearm in an open carry state is "injecting" oneself and a "provocation?" The police have yet to explain why and how they approached this person who was not committing a crime.
Black Lives Matter
1
Correct. Since the shooter in this case is Black and the victim is Black, who gets accused of "Black Officers are out to kill Black civilians"?
People who burn, throw rocks and attack police aren't "protesters", they're rioters.
But the NYT is apparently too politically correct to use precise terms.
But the NYT is apparently too politically correct to use precise terms.
31
they are black, so it is ok. The NY Times understands this, why don't you?
A more accurate (and less inflammatory ) headline would be, "Police shoot and kill a man with a handgun."
21
This epidemic of police officers killing young black men had got to stop. Still, the greatest killers of young black men are young black men. We see that in Chicago, Baltimore, and other cities. And that has also got to stop. That does not in any way justify police killings of young black men. They are two separate issues. The common tread is that young black men are dying violently. And both have got to stop.
3
There have been 692 officer related killings this year according to PBS News as of last night. 171 have been African American. Where is the news about the other 521? Unless and until the news outlets such as the NYT reports all police killings equally, and not just reported based on race, people will continue to feel injustice simply because the news hasn't been justly reported. This should concern us all because the numbers are about us all. No wonder this country seems so divided.
29
Doesn't fit the progressive narrative. The truth, that is.
1
You can be murdered with impunity - but mustn't touch sacred Walmart, where you are given a food stamps application when you apply for a job.
4
So because Walmart doesn't pay well, they should be robbed and possibly burned? Your viewpoint doesn't make a lot of sense.
20
The commentor is highlighting the fact that the taxpayers are footing the bill for the extra security needed to protect Walmart, a private entity. Walmart is known for skimping on security. While no one is saying that looters should simply be allowed to loot, the commentor is making the point that, like with foodstamps, Walmart relies on the government to pick up its slack. An externality, if you will. This is especially troubling when you consider the allocation of the police force's limited resources-- to private corporations rather than to communities who need them.
Get it now?
Get it now?
Regardless of the many, many, many shootings of unarmed people ...
If a law enforcement officer commands you to do something, then you immediately put your hands behind your head and get down on the ground. No walking away or making any sudden movements.
Live to sue another day if warranted.
If a law enforcement officer commands you to do something, then you immediately put your hands behind your head and get down on the ground. No walking away or making any sudden movements.
Live to sue another day if warranted.
12
What about Charles Kinsey, who was shot and killed lying on the ground with his hands up in the air? Or Terence Crutcher, who by all appearances was shot and killed for no reason whatsoever? Or how about Tamir Rice, who was killed before he had any time to do any of that (if you don't believe me, try, right now, to put yourself on the ground with your hands behind your head in under 2 seconds)?
The demonstrable fact is that attempting to comply with the police is not necessarily a viable strategy for surviving a police encounter.
The demonstrable fact is that attempting to comply with the police is not necessarily a viable strategy for surviving a police encounter.
1
It is the only strategy unless you wish to gamble with your life.
1
Gosh.....
Did they have to be so angry? Why didn't they just show their displeasure by kneeling during the Anthem? Or maybe they could just shrug it off and accept it as the "new normal?"
Did they have to be so angry? Why didn't they just show their displeasure by kneeling during the Anthem? Or maybe they could just shrug it off and accept it as the "new normal?"
2
Or, they could wait until all the facts come in, instead of attacking trucks on a highway, looting them, and looting the Walmart?
Yesterday the Public Editor posted "When to Call a Lie a Lie".
When will the NYT call a riot a riot?
When will the NYT call a riot a riot?
33
Never, unless the rioters are Trump supporters.
"Law Enforcement' once again kills the black guy', but somehow, the 'terrorist? bomber' get taken away alive even though he had a visible weapon?
And there is no war on blacks, especially men?
Interesting.
Those quacking, walking, acting animals that ARE NOT ducks are beginning to look more like a duck everyday.
And there is no war on blacks, especially men?
Interesting.
Those quacking, walking, acting animals that ARE NOT ducks are beginning to look more like a duck everyday.
2
We needed to interrogate the bomber. There is no felt need to have any of those blacks alive. Black lives is the issue.
1
So tell me, would you have killed the terrorist, and not stopped the next attack? As for this shooting all of the facts are not in..
This is now absurd. It just cannot go on like this. Something is going to give, we'll have major violence if we don't head this off.
It is not good enough to do as Hillary did to Wall Street, "Knock it off." They won't. We are far past that.
There will have to be something new done. A police of the police, a national "Internal Affairs" of some sort to clean this up is not unavoidable.
We will need to do to police departments what Republicans did to under-performing schools, close them or change over the top staff.
At the extreme, appoint outside managers to supervise the new guys, like the State of Michigan did to the City of Detroit after the Feds jailed the old Mayor. We will need more than the treat of that, we'll need to do that to more than a few.
What cannot go on will not go on. The question is how we will get to the next thing, by wise reform or by violence driving events.
It is not good enough to do as Hillary did to Wall Street, "Knock it off." They won't. We are far past that.
There will have to be something new done. A police of the police, a national "Internal Affairs" of some sort to clean this up is not unavoidable.
We will need to do to police departments what Republicans did to under-performing schools, close them or change over the top staff.
At the extreme, appoint outside managers to supervise the new guys, like the State of Michigan did to the City of Detroit after the Feds jailed the old Mayor. We will need more than the treat of that, we'll need to do that to more than a few.
What cannot go on will not go on. The question is how we will get to the next thing, by wise reform or by violence driving events.
4
Sorry -- "a national "Internal Affairs" of some sort to clean this up is *now* unavoidable."
Okay, so you want all the police in the country monitored and controlled. Are you going to decide how much higher crime will go up, and how many police get to die in each state every day, while you are watching/controlling the police?
Riots and looters, attacking innocent people on the open roadways. What is that supposed to accomplish? More of the same?
22
I am troubled that, in a country where we are Constitutionally able to own guns and in many jurisdictions open-carry them, police can simply shoot and kill someone if they have a gun. Why? Seems their go-to response after-the-fact, even if it's proven not to be true.
Going to a bus stop, or sitting in your car, or having it break down -- and having the police drive by and notice you SHOULD NOT END IN DEATH.
Going to a bus stop, or sitting in your car, or having it break down -- and having the police drive by and notice you SHOULD NOT END IN DEATH.
2
When pressure cooker bombs were discovered in NYC last week, law enforcement identified the perpetrator and apprehended him WITHOUT KILLING HIM.
It's unclear to me why black men keep getting killed by cops when clearly law enforcement has some basic knowledge about how to apprehend a suspect AND keep that person alive.
Are there different rules for terrorists who plan mass murder vs. black men who are stopped for routine traffic violations or other basic encounters?
I am grateful I am not a black man living in America.
It's unclear to me why black men keep getting killed by cops when clearly law enforcement has some basic knowledge about how to apprehend a suspect AND keep that person alive.
Are there different rules for terrorists who plan mass murder vs. black men who are stopped for routine traffic violations or other basic encounters?
I am grateful I am not a black man living in America.
2
Rioting, attacking innocent people, looting businesses, and attacking the cops is not going to help the situation at all. What it's going to do is convince the cops, and a lot of other people, that black men really are a violent threat at all times, and shooting them is a fairly reasonable preventative measure.
I don't believe that bigotry, by the way, but this sort of senseless violence is going to create that impression in a lot of people. The shootings of unarmed black men by police are a terrible problem, but it is not something that can be solved or addressed by violent rioting, and every mob attack like this sets back the process of doing anything about the problem.
I don't believe that bigotry, by the way, but this sort of senseless violence is going to create that impression in a lot of people. The shootings of unarmed black men by police are a terrible problem, but it is not something that can be solved or addressed by violent rioting, and every mob attack like this sets back the process of doing anything about the problem.
64
"it is not something that can be solved or addressed by violent rioting"
If it isn't addressed in some better way, then that is what we are going to get. It is all that is left.
It has NOT been addressed in some other way. It just keeps happening.
On and on. But oh, don't riot? What do we think is going to happen?
If it isn't addressed in some better way, then that is what we are going to get. It is all that is left.
It has NOT been addressed in some other way. It just keeps happening.
On and on. But oh, don't riot? What do we think is going to happen?
2
So far that convincing is working like a charm.
In ten years, at this rate of convincing, we should be, well, nowhere.
In ten years, at this rate of convincing, we should be, well, nowhere.
1
Dear Mark Thomason,
But there is a better way. Black people in these communities suffering the police shootings (and this is basically only the poorest communities) could get politically active. Sign petitions, support candidates that will help them, vote every election, organize voter registration, write letters to representatives, and so on. That helped end our involvement in Vietnam and it would help here.
But that solution hasn't been tried by these communities, nor has ANY other potential solution asides from rioting. So I stand by my statement.
But there is a better way. Black people in these communities suffering the police shootings (and this is basically only the poorest communities) could get politically active. Sign petitions, support candidates that will help them, vote every election, organize voter registration, write letters to representatives, and so on. That helped end our involvement in Vietnam and it would help here.
But that solution hasn't been tried by these communities, nor has ANY other potential solution asides from rioting. So I stand by my statement.
Attacking innocent people who just happen to have the bad luck to be driving on on the Interstate at a particular moment and who have nothing to do with the grievances of the rioters is a disgusting and terrifying thing to contemplate. I have to sympathy anymore for such people or their cause. Absolutely none.
19
I'm sorry that a man lost his life. I'm sorry that a police officer killed this man.
It does not excuse the ridiculous actions of the rioters. Let's call it like it is. It's not a protest, it's a riot. Do people honestly think that rioting is the answer to this? Ridiculous. Yes, let's break into the Walmart that had nothing to do with anything, loot and steal because we are mad? Please.
It does not excuse the ridiculous actions of the rioters. Let's call it like it is. It's not a protest, it's a riot. Do people honestly think that rioting is the answer to this? Ridiculous. Yes, let's break into the Walmart that had nothing to do with anything, loot and steal because we are mad? Please.
29
It does not "excuse" a riot.
The utter failure to do anything about this "explains" a riot. Rioting is what happens when things boil over.
Do something real to stop this killing, or things will get out of hand, and it will be unfair and not excusable, rather like the killings now.
The utter failure to do anything about this "explains" a riot. Rioting is what happens when things boil over.
Do something real to stop this killing, or things will get out of hand, and it will be unfair and not excusable, rather like the killings now.
2
And how do we know that the shooting wasn't justified? We don't yet. We weren't there. We don't know what the officer knew, or quite possibly feared. It's still no excuse to riot.
Protesting is a different thing. I have no problem with protesting. Protesting can create positive results. All rioting accomplishes is destruction and pain, more often than not to people that had nothing to do with the initiation of the riot in the first place.
Protesting is a different thing. I have no problem with protesting. Protesting can create positive results. All rioting accomplishes is destruction and pain, more often than not to people that had nothing to do with the initiation of the riot in the first place.
I think most people would agree with you. Sometimes rioters are bad actors, nothing more. Other times riots are the result of years of pent up frustrations, where a community's peaceful and dignified pleas for change have been ignored. I don't think decent people "honestly think rioting is the answer," but I can fairly easily see decent people (especially young people) falling into this kind of thing if they feel their voices are not being heard.
1
Why is the race of the police officer not in the title of the article? And why does the title refer to these riots as protests?
Shame on the NYT.
Shame on the NYT.
26
If citizenry weren't allowed to own firearms, police would not feel so threatened--and stop shooting. We have a race problem in America. Most of all, we have a gun problem.
BHB turn off the heroin flow over the borders and the gangs wouldn't' have anything to shoot about. But that means tightening border control and we can't possibly do that.
Police shooting of an unarmed man with his hands up is an atrocity.
The Trumpist technique of refusing to address that horror by shifting attention to the completely separate issue of the consequent rioting and property damage ensures that the basic problem gets bigger, and the entire society becomes more contentious and divided.
The Trumpist technique of refusing to address that horror by shifting attention to the completely separate issue of the consequent rioting and property damage ensures that the basic problem gets bigger, and the entire society becomes more contentious and divided.
2
My bad. I thought this riot was in response to the Tulsa killing.
1
The event occurred just yesterday and it's obviously impossible for any of us to know if the contention of Law Enforcement that the victim retrieved a weapon from a vehicle or his family's claim the only thing he was carrying was a book. That being the case what possible justification is there for riots and looting , can anyone seriously contend such is not dangerously counter productive ?
2
Why do they have to shoot to kill? if there is cause, why not shoot to disable?
2
There really is no shooting to disable.
A shot in the leg can hit a major artery and kill, or hit bone that leaves the person crippled for life; it is all very close together.
Anyway, shooting under stress is just not that accurate. Many police bullets miss altogether, even at very close range.
The only solution is, don't shoot at all. Once a gun comes out, bad things are happening.
A shot in the leg can hit a major artery and kill, or hit bone that leaves the person crippled for life; it is all very close together.
Anyway, shooting under stress is just not that accurate. Many police bullets miss altogether, even at very close range.
The only solution is, don't shoot at all. Once a gun comes out, bad things are happening.
5
Only people without knowledge of guns think that is reslistic.
1
Why did it take so long for the NYT to publish this story? I read about it in The Guardian yesterday. I agree that we should not be giving undue publicity to all the violent acts, bombings and shootings that are taking place all over the world, and the paper has been lately subdued in its reporting of them, lest they are amplified and generate hysteria and more copycat acts, but subdued reporting (no shouting lines, no sensationalizing, no innumerable articles on the same story--and for days and days) is not the same as lateness or passing over an event. It displaces other stories: Where is the Syria story? Also, we need more subdued reporting on the elections. The he and she said on every single news item is absurd and insubstantial.
4
How do Turkish guards manage to shoot and WOUND a man in the leg trying to get into the Israeli Embassy in Turkey carrying a 12" knife and a bag and the best we can do is kill somebody who may not have been doing anything. I say "may not" have been doing anything wrong because at this point I honestly don't know. What I feel confident in saying is that police are not trained to any appreciable degree in DE escalation in most parts of the country. The video scenarios that I see about police training are all about "terrorist "feeling" incidents. Going into dark apartments etc. No wonder they go into attack mode. And I do mean "attack mode". Time to rethink police training.
2
It sounds like many locals were quick to buy into the whole 'book' theory and start looting instantly. As we saw in Ferguson, there were many witnesses under oath who said that Michael Brown was shot point blank with his hands up, trying to surrender. Except the DOJ report which detailed how the physical evidence proved otherwise.
13
Michael Brown somehow managed to get shot the first time inside a police car, all over the driver's seat.
That example does not prospectively justify every other police shooting after that.
There have been too many. In many, the cops did lie. In many, the cops were wrong. Too many.
Something must be done.
That example does not prospectively justify every other police shooting after that.
There have been too many. In many, the cops did lie. In many, the cops were wrong. Too many.
Something must be done.
5
What's also remarkable is how everyone has their phones out ready to record. It's just a game to these people. Oh well hopefully this will push North Carolina firmly into Trump's column
7
They have their phones out ready to record because it is the only proof they have of wrong doing in a society where historically a police officer's word counts as the highest truth and fact. It is not a game it is in deadly earnest.
Lots of guns in a tense situation means too much shooting. In times past, whatever the police officers said happened often became the only public record. With video, the tables have turned.
According to statistics made available by the Washington Post, police across America are shooting and killing citizens at a rate of almost 3 per day.
Since we have the highest incarceration rate in the world, it is reasonable to ask: are there that many really bad people in the nation? Are the wrong people being put in prison while violent thugs threaten the police constantly? What the heck is going on?
Some of the problem can surely be traced to having so many people with mental illnesses who go untreated. Race is also clearly a factor. It appears that most police departments are on double alert when dealing with black people and that means they are ready to shoot much more quickly.
These problems, while local in nature, demand a national, comprehensive approach toward solutions. They are not going to resolved by cracking down more. They require us to back up, think things through and take action as a society to change and stop the blood flowing in our streets. They require leadership and the willingness on the part of Republicans in Congress to drop some of their partisan shields and address the issues in a calm, respectful manner.
The police are not being demonized. We are just seeing a problem now that has been going on, and getting worse, for a long time.
According to statistics made available by the Washington Post, police across America are shooting and killing citizens at a rate of almost 3 per day.
Since we have the highest incarceration rate in the world, it is reasonable to ask: are there that many really bad people in the nation? Are the wrong people being put in prison while violent thugs threaten the police constantly? What the heck is going on?
Some of the problem can surely be traced to having so many people with mental illnesses who go untreated. Race is also clearly a factor. It appears that most police departments are on double alert when dealing with black people and that means they are ready to shoot much more quickly.
These problems, while local in nature, demand a national, comprehensive approach toward solutions. They are not going to resolved by cracking down more. They require us to back up, think things through and take action as a society to change and stop the blood flowing in our streets. They require leadership and the willingness on the part of Republicans in Congress to drop some of their partisan shields and address the issues in a calm, respectful manner.
The police are not being demonized. We are just seeing a problem now that has been going on, and getting worse, for a long time.
6
The writers who question the description of the events in Charlotte as "protests" have a good point. Throwing rocks, setting fires, and, looting are associated with rioting and not with the civil protest Dr King used so effectively, for example. These events may have begun as protests but they seem to have ended as riots.
17
Bull, you write, "These events may have begun as protests but they seem to have ended as riots."
I think the reverse is true and would put it this way: These events have begun as riots and will end in protests...
I think the reverse is true and would put it this way: These events have begun as riots and will end in protests...
Well, this riot will put North Carolina in Trump's electoral college column.
9
Perhaps we should change our firearms carry rules. From now on, if you carry, you MUST carry open. That way, people, police in particular, will know if there is a weapon that may pose an imminent deadly threat (which probably won't) when they shoot someone.
1
You mean like when Philando Castille told police he had a legally registered gun the moment he was pulled over? How did that work out for him?
How come that in UK , the police has no guns and criminality is 1/1000th of USA (in relative terms) ?
"criminality is 1/1000th of USA (in relative terms) ?"
No, shootings are lower. Killings are still happening, but not with guns. Advantage to the bigger man, the more experienced bully, the guy fast with a knife.
Criminality in general runs about the same.
No, shootings are lower. Killings are still happening, but not with guns. Advantage to the bigger man, the more experienced bully, the guy fast with a knife.
Criminality in general runs about the same.
3
"Criminality" is a rather imprecise term. But taking it as I think you mean it, the Brits have racially had a relatively homogeneous society, with a strong common set of traditions that emphasize self-restraint. That's all changing rapidly. Check again in 10 years.
OMG! The Wash Post has shown that only about 1/4 of shooting deaths at the hands of police are of Black people. There is no good evidence that police shootings are a racial thing. These types of articles are hampering efforts to address problems of racism (which of course do exist) in our society.
17
News organizations are in he business of making money. Sensational headlines that bend the truth are a tested method of doing so
Non-Hispanic Whites are 63% of the population. Blacks are 12.3% of the population. So 1/4 means a higher percentage of the Black population are killed at the hands of the police.
Rioters are rioters, not "protestors". Protestors hold signs and march, etc, Rioters smash through doors and throw rocks at families cars on the freeway, etc. These are rioters and should be dealt with harshly.
18
As has been pointed out by others, cops in Linden, NJ managed to shoot the guy who planted the bombs in NY and NJ only wounding him. Why can't the same be done in these instances? Why are these cops shooting to kill on such flimsy evidence? The guy in NJ shot AT a cop who was saved by his vest, yet he didn't seem to face a fusillade of bullets. Does make one pause....
2
What a ridiculous comment. Cops don't have a minute to aim in situations like these. It's instinct. Shooting a gun on a moment's notice is not a science- some people will be shot non-fatally. A bullet being even an inch off of where an officer aimed can be fatal
1
@ Dan " It's instinct"
And there I was thinking that police officers were trained to do their job!
And there I was thinking that police officers were trained to do their job!
the simple fact is that the police are shooting too many unarmed people, black or white, period. the laws protecting the cops need to change.
5
I think it is more a matter of enforcement than the laws themselves. We can't legislate our way out of this.
The police can't self regulate. Nobody else does that well, so we ought not to be surprised.
The police can't self regulate. Nobody else does that well, so we ought not to be surprised.
1
Why do so many of the comments assume the deceased was not armed or that the police did not perceive they were in danger?
It would appear that many people are choosing "facts" before much reporting comes out, because they have already made up their minds. I think this is more commonly known as generalizing or stereotyping.
It would appear that many people are choosing "facts" before much reporting comes out, because they have already made up their minds. I think this is more commonly known as generalizing or stereotyping.
13
Why do you think that simply perceiving that you are in danger is a good enough reason to kill someone?
It appears the victim was armed…in an open carry state. Therefore the question is why this particular person was approached by the police and what exactly transpired that caused the police to allege an "imminent danger."
At this time, the perceived danger seems to be a black man with a gun. Which raises serious questions about black people being allowed to open carry.
At this time, the perceived danger seems to be a black man with a gun. Which raises serious questions about black people being allowed to open carry.
it does not matter how much/little sensitivity trainingg is involved---until the vetting process is drastically changed---the pool of police candidates continues to be tainted :(
3
The higher ranks, Sergeant and up, know exactly what their guys are doing. They know. They are together closely all the time, in one situation after another.
It is not the recruits. It is the leaders.
It is not the recruits. It is the leaders.
1
Lovely that the mayor sent out Twitter messages urging calm. That is truly the very least she can do.
3
Again, where are the protests for the daily slaughter of young men of color by.........other young men of color?
Until we as a country address the large segment of the african american population caught in a never ending cycle of disfunction, violence, lack of education, substance abuse, out of wedlock births, and YES, racism, then the situation will not change.
We need to a grand plan that will cost billions to bring this population into the mainstream of American Society.
Until we as a country address the large segment of the african american population caught in a never ending cycle of disfunction, violence, lack of education, substance abuse, out of wedlock births, and YES, racism, then the situation will not change.
We need to a grand plan that will cost billions to bring this population into the mainstream of American Society.
12
True, but we do not need to make the problem so big and unmanageable that it puts off action. Start by not shooting so many of them.
1
I believe the time has come for a comprehensive study of the effects on people in the police profession who serve in 'high crime' area's. Cops are much more likely to be killed, assaulted, abused and accused while providing law enforcement activities for those living under harsh circumstances. The cumulative consequences of exposure to these challenges, both physical and emotional (numbers of cop suicides, mental or behavioral problems, divorce rate, substance abusers and so on) have never been publically exposed and would go a long way towards necessary treatment and/or assignment options.
4
Thank you NYT for informing your readers every time a white cop kills a black man. Most Americans don't believe how frequent these deaths occur nor that these killings often happen to unarmed black citizens.
1
2 such shootings in a week would imply about 100 events per year. Out of a country of well over 300 million people that would not be considered frequent.
7
The officer involved in this shooting was black.
7
@ dolly Patterson
This was not one of those occurrences. In this instance, a *black* officer shot an *armed* black man...
This was not one of those occurrences. In this instance, a *black* officer shot an *armed* black man...
1
Let me fix the headline for you.
"Riots Erupt in Charlotte After Black Policeman Kills an Armed Black Man..."
There. Isn't that a bit more accurate?
"Riots Erupt in Charlotte After Black Policeman Kills an Armed Black Man..."
There. Isn't that a bit more accurate?
26
Guns are the real problem here. If they were not so easy to get, the police would not have so much to fear. I don't understand why more police departments are not supporting gun control. We will continue to have deaths like this as long as there are so many guns.
5
It is striking that there were few such protests in 2008 and 2009. Were the police much worse in 2015 and 2016? It is hard to believe. Were black resentments and race relations much greater in 2015 and 2016? That seems to be the case.
Paradoxically all the demonstrations and the foundationw who are funding Black Lives Matter seem to be saying that a Democratic Administration has failed and that it is time to vote Republican.
Paradoxically all the demonstrations and the foundationw who are funding Black Lives Matter seem to be saying that a Democratic Administration has failed and that it is time to vote Republican.
11
Today's prevalence of cell phone videos and the resultant adoption of police body cams is quite different from the street reality of 2008.
Attempting to imply the BLM movement is leaning toward republicans is beyond absurd.
There has been an obvious failure of law enforcement, either due to inadequate training, incompetent officers, pockets of racism, inadequate tools, too many guns on the street, or combinations of any of the above.
Attempting to imply the BLM movement is leaning toward republicans is beyond absurd.
There has been an obvious failure of law enforcement, either due to inadequate training, incompetent officers, pockets of racism, inadequate tools, too many guns on the street, or combinations of any of the above.
1
[[“The subject got back out of the vehicle armed with a firearm and posed an imminent deadly threat to the officers, who subsequently fired their weapon, striking the subject.”]]
[[“The police just shot my daddy four times for being black,” the woman said moments into a Facebook Live broadcast.]]
I'm reasonably sure both sides are being less than 100% truthful.
Also, the "police" who shot her "daddy" is also a "black."
[[“The police just shot my daddy four times for being black,” the woman said moments into a Facebook Live broadcast.]]
I'm reasonably sure both sides are being less than 100% truthful.
Also, the "police" who shot her "daddy" is also a "black."
11
Great picture of that bus "NOT IN SERVCE." What was it doing there, must have been a charter giving a ride to the protesters.
5
“The shooting in Charlotte this week was the latest in a string of deaths of black people at the hands of the police that have stoked outrage around the country.”
Facts: The police had an arrest warrant for a different person. Keith Scott was carrying a book, not a gun. Police shoot first, ask questions later,
If you are a black male, America is a mortally dangerous place to live.
Facts: The police had an arrest warrant for a different person. Keith Scott was carrying a book, not a gun. Police shoot first, ask questions later,
If you are a black male, America is a mortally dangerous place to live.
8
Your 'facts' are conflicting with what was found on the scene. Here in the US, we don't jump to conclusions, but apparently in Canada that's the way you do things.
Many many more blacks are killed by their fellow black men than by cops. Black violence brings about most shootings, not racist cops
1
The violence that accompanies a black officer shooting a black man only hurts the people who want to see change, because this is not a white man with prejudice and racial intent shooting a black man. Screaming, looting, rioting and irrationality alienates 99% of us, the people, from any message.
I love hearing all of the stats that one is more likely to get killed by a car than a terrorist. Well the same applies in this situation and a lot more non-black people are shot and killed by police than black people. So this whole argument is upside down. The violence just simply an emotional response to a bad situation. That means it only makes solutions harder.
I love hearing all of the stats that one is more likely to get killed by a car than a terrorist. Well the same applies in this situation and a lot more non-black people are shot and killed by police than black people. So this whole argument is upside down. The violence just simply an emotional response to a bad situation. That means it only makes solutions harder.
11
I keep hearing how difficult it is to shoot to wound, and yet when it comes time to keep a terrorist alive for questioning, somehow law enforcement is able to hit a shoulder. In a firefight. When he's already shot a cop. Lucky I guess?
15
Take everything you know about North Carolina; the "Bathroom Law" the voting suppression, the attacks on our legendary University system, the hollowing-out of our public schools... Consider all of that and now throw this on top of the Pyre of Democracy:
It was only in July that our governor, McCrory, signed HB 972, which states that audio and video captured by police body cameras or dashboard cameras are not public records, meaning the general public has no right to see or obtain copies of them.
I quote from the CNN report of July 13, 2016:
Citing a desire to balance "public trust" with the rights and safety of law enforcement officers, North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory signed legislation this week that blocks the release of law enforcement recordings from body cameras or dashboard cameras with limited exceptions.
Surrounded by uniformed officers from across the state, McCrory signed House Bill 972 on Monday in a news conference in Raleigh. The Republican governor said the new law will promote "uniformity, clarity and transparency" by establishing clear standards and procedures for releasing law enforcement recordings."
This report, and many others are available online. As you see, we have a very serious problem here and as long as we are governed by those who have no regard for the Constitution of the United States of America, we have no hope that things are going to improve.
It was only in July that our governor, McCrory, signed HB 972, which states that audio and video captured by police body cameras or dashboard cameras are not public records, meaning the general public has no right to see or obtain copies of them.
I quote from the CNN report of July 13, 2016:
Citing a desire to balance "public trust" with the rights and safety of law enforcement officers, North Carolina Gov. Pat McCrory signed legislation this week that blocks the release of law enforcement recordings from body cameras or dashboard cameras with limited exceptions.
Surrounded by uniformed officers from across the state, McCrory signed House Bill 972 on Monday in a news conference in Raleigh. The Republican governor said the new law will promote "uniformity, clarity and transparency" by establishing clear standards and procedures for releasing law enforcement recordings."
This report, and many others are available online. As you see, we have a very serious problem here and as long as we are governed by those who have no regard for the Constitution of the United States of America, we have no hope that things are going to improve.
11
There are guns everywhere. Police see them where they are not.
We used to talk about how the KGB would show up on Russian doorsteps. Now our police are "serving warrants" for things like traffic tickets and breaking into people's homes.
We used to talk about how the KGB would show up on Russian doorsteps. Now our police are "serving warrants" for things like traffic tickets and breaking into people's homes.
5
I am a mother of white men. I have been frightened since they were born that some accident could occur that would take their lives.I cannot imagine waking every day in this world that disposes of our African American children. My heart aches. I am seventy years old and have worked my whole life for a better world. I am angry enough to steal and break and scream help , change, see people not targets.
6
Far, far more blacks are killed by other blacks tha by police. It is more than 100x more. When will those protests start?
24
Why would you compare the Police to a Criminal?
You're really not helping either, especially the Police.
Unless you need to make the point(?) is "The Police aren't nearly as bad as actual criminals"
You're really not helping either, especially the Police.
Unless you need to make the point(?) is "The Police aren't nearly as bad as actual criminals"
2
The difference is, we don't train and pay average citizens to not kill each other. That's what police are for.
2
The deplorable conditions of poverty and unemployment and the ready availability of guns go a long way towards explaining the violence in inner cities. There are desperate people: desperate to get out of the way of the violence and live their lives, raise their children; and desperate people using the guns. However, the police are paid to protect and serve. They have sworn an oath (haven't they?). They are public SERVANTS. The problem is they are also human and have lived separated from others, have imbibed feelings of otherness, suspicion, fear. They go into situations unarmed emotionally but carrying deadly force ...and their preconceptions. Plus the knowledge that there are cop killing guns out there. This is a recipe for what we get. A cycle of violence creating two armed camps. Or three if you count the bystanders who may sympathize but can be pushed into their ethnic camp once race or other visible signs make them targets based on that one identifier.
Today's tv news said violence broke out after outside agitators showed up and the DOJ is now investigating the entire incident.
The shooting definitely deserves further investigation, but not necessarily by DOJ. Does the DOJ have a list of mobile agitators in incidents like this and will they be prosecuted for encouraging crime and in sighting riots?
The shooting definitely deserves further investigation, but not necessarily by DOJ. Does the DOJ have a list of mobile agitators in incidents like this and will they be prosecuted for encouraging crime and in sighting riots?
13
I get you don't approve of folks Rioting after these killings and to be honest I'd rather they'd not riot,..
However, exactly how do you want them to protest the next killing of a Stranded Motorist, Person not on the Warrant, Kid playing with a Toy Gun, shot in the back,...
However, exactly how do you want them to protest the next killing of a Stranded Motorist, Person not on the Warrant, Kid playing with a Toy Gun, shot in the back,...
9
Many of us poor dumb southerners called last night's riots in Charlotte,,,well riots. I doubt the motorists on I-85 felt like they were watching protests as the youfs dropped cinder blocks and other debris onto vehicles from above.
We know what it was.
We know what it was.
30
Between Donald Trump and trigger happy white police officers taking the law in their hands, and FBI failing to properly vet terrorists we may as well throw out the Constitution if Trump gets elected. Media needs to publicize how law and order works in Russia so we can better understand the system we will be embracing starting January 20, 2017.
5
You know that this guy was shot by a black cop right?
9
I'm a child of black immigrants and I grew up among low income black Americans. All I'm going to say it's very easy to sit back in judgment of police officers from the comfort of your homes in mostly affluent white suburbs.
I don't think many of you realize how utterly morally depraved many of these communities are and the complete opposite of what you're used to. These shootings may prove unjustified or unwarranted we'll see but I'll continue to treat each case independently not pile on cops who have a tremendously difficult job policing a community that is utterly outside of the mainstream in decency and behavior.
I don't think many of you realize how utterly morally depraved many of these communities are and the complete opposite of what you're used to. These shootings may prove unjustified or unwarranted we'll see but I'll continue to treat each case independently not pile on cops who have a tremendously difficult job policing a community that is utterly outside of the mainstream in decency and behavior.
113
Their difficult jobs aren't helped by them shooting and killing the: Unarmed, Stranded Motorists, Kids with Toy guns, folks in the back, planting evidence on a corpse,...?
This comment highlights a lot of the divisions between black Americans who were born in the US and black Americans (or American residents) who were not. I say this as a black woman born in Nairobi who moved here before 10, and has had to struggle a lot with what it means to be black in America. Those who haven't experienced life growing up black in the US, as the majority of black people experience it (poor, without resources we take for granted...even as immigrants) I don't think have the full psychological understanding of what it means to be the subject of this violence day after day.
There are ways to call some responses counterproductive without painting entire communities as aberrant or beyond civilization. I see as much racism in those comments as from anyone who lives in the 'mostly white affluent suburbs'. My belief is in people first; my outrage is proportionally focused on the person who was unjustly killed....regardless of whether they were armed (legal in NC!)...over damage to property (even though I think that damage also disproportionately affects black communities later and thus can feed the problem).
There are ways to call some responses counterproductive without painting entire communities as aberrant or beyond civilization. I see as much racism in those comments as from anyone who lives in the 'mostly white affluent suburbs'. My belief is in people first; my outrage is proportionally focused on the person who was unjustly killed....regardless of whether they were armed (legal in NC!)...over damage to property (even though I think that damage also disproportionately affects black communities later and thus can feed the problem).
6
"...policing a community that is utterly outside of the mainstream in decency and behavior."
And if community policing was still a thing, if there wasn't a war on drugs, if arrest stats weren't quotaed by departments, if police response times weren't so abysmal, if cops could protect a state witness, if police were actually held to the same laws they claim to protect, if urban police departments weren't composed primarily of people who don't live where they work, if profiling wasn't a thing, then maybe those communities wouldn't look the way they do and would actually be willing to work with police.
Not sure where this self hatred for your community comes from, but your ignorance to the root cause of these issues is pretty disappointing.
And if community policing was still a thing, if there wasn't a war on drugs, if arrest stats weren't quotaed by departments, if police response times weren't so abysmal, if cops could protect a state witness, if police were actually held to the same laws they claim to protect, if urban police departments weren't composed primarily of people who don't live where they work, if profiling wasn't a thing, then maybe those communities wouldn't look the way they do and would actually be willing to work with police.
Not sure where this self hatred for your community comes from, but your ignorance to the root cause of these issues is pretty disappointing.
1
I have a hard time calling looters simply 'protestors'. People who try and break into a WalMart and who storm a highway to loot the contents of semi-trailers are looters, rioters, maybe thieves, but hardly are they protestors.
At the same time, there is certainly cause for protest that would shut Charlotte's government down until this unlawful killing of civilians is addressed and done so decisively. Is it so hard for the descendants of the SCLC and the NAACP to figure out a return to peaceful civil disobedience, of peacefully blocking access to the police stations, the courts, the city halls of these cities and adapting the brilliant tactics of Dr. MLK to the 21st century? As I remember it, Dr. King did not grab TVs from WalMarts, nor did he loot semis - but he brought a racist President from Texas and a racist Congress to its moral knees and changed this country. Where is our Dr. King today?
At the same time, there is certainly cause for protest that would shut Charlotte's government down until this unlawful killing of civilians is addressed and done so decisively. Is it so hard for the descendants of the SCLC and the NAACP to figure out a return to peaceful civil disobedience, of peacefully blocking access to the police stations, the courts, the city halls of these cities and adapting the brilliant tactics of Dr. MLK to the 21st century? As I remember it, Dr. King did not grab TVs from WalMarts, nor did he loot semis - but he brought a racist President from Texas and a racist Congress to its moral knees and changed this country. Where is our Dr. King today?
106
The vast majority of protests of police shootings, Black Lives Matter especially, are peaceful. But agitators, those who want to loot, to take advantage, and those who would be aggressive, they will join peaceful protests whether or not they are feeling rage against a perceived or real unjustified police action. You cannot lump all agitators with the peaceful protesters.
Also, peaceful protests can morph due to the rage they are doubtless feeling when nothing seems to halt incidences of innocent black men being killed unjustly with no consequences. We need a better way to ensure justice and until that is done this will keep happening because it is now seen and heard and for white people like me, totally outrageous. A man in the helicopter, in the Tulsa shooting yesterday, can be heard saying, "oh, looks like a bad one (bad guy)" when I saw a man with his hands up, a man described this morning as "disoriented." But he was a big, black man. The officer who shot him was not. Lots of things in pockets, where he reached, are not guns! Rarely is a police officer who has committed such a shooting charged with a crime and that has to change. Of course their police department is going to absolve them if at all possible so a more objective process is necessary. It has been going on for decade after decade, but we are so sad to now be seeing and hearing it.
Also, peaceful protests can morph due to the rage they are doubtless feeling when nothing seems to halt incidences of innocent black men being killed unjustly with no consequences. We need a better way to ensure justice and until that is done this will keep happening because it is now seen and heard and for white people like me, totally outrageous. A man in the helicopter, in the Tulsa shooting yesterday, can be heard saying, "oh, looks like a bad one (bad guy)" when I saw a man with his hands up, a man described this morning as "disoriented." But he was a big, black man. The officer who shot him was not. Lots of things in pockets, where he reached, are not guns! Rarely is a police officer who has committed such a shooting charged with a crime and that has to change. Of course their police department is going to absolve them if at all possible so a more objective process is necessary. It has been going on for decade after decade, but we are so sad to now be seeing and hearing it.
Probably already been shot to death.
1
john, don't forget the attacks on car occupants. probably the most despicable act of all. Bo worry though, they are probably white so it is ok. No civil rights violations there.
Looting trucks, trying to break into Walmart, destruction of property... this was NOT a protest. It is riots like this that totally destroy the cause. No one waits for any kind of investigation. They immediately hit the streets and frighten people, a lot of them that are there for a PEACEFUL protest and this why I don't join them. In addition, there is a refusal to discuss how many African-Americans kill other African-Americans. This is another reason why I have no interest in BLM anymore. Looting, throwing rocks, stopping traffic and breaking into trucks? Again, not a protest. A RIOT.
34
Where does it state that BLM has anything to do with the looting?
Nothing says "we want peace" like looting a Walmart, burning trucks, and trying to kill innocent families on the highway.
Gee, it's just like the March on Washington.
We'll see soon how absurd this really is. Cops are notorious for shooting men quietly holding a book waiting to pick up children.
Well done America liberals - you have competed helping poor black America destroy itself!
Gee, it's just like the March on Washington.
We'll see soon how absurd this really is. Cops are notorious for shooting men quietly holding a book waiting to pick up children.
Well done America liberals - you have competed helping poor black America destroy itself!
25
Actually the(ir) mantra is "No Justice, No Peace" (even if they're unfamiliar as you seem?). So your analysis is incorrect from it's origins.
"Nothing says "we want peace" like looting ,..."
"Nothing says "we want peace" like looting ,..."
1
The police (and lots of others) are concerned about people being armed with guns. That is not unreasonable considering how many guns are out there in the possession of all kinds of people and many (if not most) of them unregistered. I am sorry but we can't have it both ways. Don't decry a situation we as a society refuse to address.
There also appears to be a lot of heated discussion here without many facts. Another sign of our times in the US. I have yet to see in the NY Times or elsewhere a professional statistical exposition and anaylsis of all the many factors causing this problem. Perhaps Andy Beveridge or another social statistics expert can shed light whee there is already too much heat.
There also appears to be a lot of heated discussion here without many facts. Another sign of our times in the US. I have yet to see in the NY Times or elsewhere a professional statistical exposition and anaylsis of all the many factors causing this problem. Perhaps Andy Beveridge or another social statistics expert can shed light whee there is already too much heat.
7
This is getting beyond preposterous. Some police act as if they are in a war zone. Thanks to The Con Don for ramping up the hate, fear, anger and racism. This is his kind of law and order.
These bad cops had better be weeded out of police departments across America. And WE had better demand serious federal regulation to get guns off the streets of America.
These bad cops had better be weeded out of police departments across America. And WE had better demand serious federal regulation to get guns off the streets of America.
12
Glad to see the investigation has been wrapped up so quickly.
4
So when a man with a gun pointed or reaching for it refuses to obey cops, what should they do njglea?, lay down their arms and surrender?
2
Gun rights advocates should be all over this one...since when does (allegedly) having a gun result in an immediate death sentence doled out not by a judge and jury but by the police on the beat? How about stand your ground advocates? If the police raised their weapons first, then isn't that provocation? But hypocrisy has become mainstream in America, especially where race is involved. So sad that this is where we are as a nation, bereft of the political will to come up with cross-party, practical solutions.
18
The officers raised their guns because they are, in fact authorized to use lethal force. Civilians aren't.
Two key facts are buried way down in this article: that the cop was black, and a gun was found (add parenthetically).
Not sure if we'll ever get the truth about what happened.
Not sure if we'll ever get the truth about what happened.
23
Eric, your comment should be an NYT pick...
1
Merely possessing a firearm should not be an immediate capital offense, as it seems to be in this case, although the facts are unclear.
The race of the shooting police officer in question is not super-relevant. This incidence is one in a long string of police (of all colors) killing people of color. This is about the criminalization of being black on the street. 3 of the 6 cops who gave Freddie Grey a "rough ride" and fractured his spine were black. Black folks in Baltimore weren't any less angry once that news came out. It seems once you become a cop, no matter your background, you learn to view all POC with hyper suspicion.
There was a weapon. There was a video of a weapon and the man turning to point it at the cop. They are just typical criminals. Just do what any country used to do with miscreants, kick them out of the country and never let them return.
11
So you want us to be like Cuba?
1
"This is a very old chesnut," as they often said in the 19th century. The rich robber barons of the 19th century did not need to carry a handgun to defend themselves at that time, because there were not as many handguns on the streets of 19th c. America as we have now. This is not an oversimplification -- if it is an accurate fact.
Looting and arson are not typically considered "protesting."
44
Really? You must not be one of the Times' regular readers...
2
Why do police officers always shoot to kill? I admit I don't own a gun or know how to shoot one, but there must be techniques for trained officers to shoot to effectively wound if they feel they must. A bullet in the knee or ankle should probably do the trick. And why shots in the double digits?
Just asking.
Just asking.
9
Officers are not trained to shoot to kill. They are trained to stop the threat. Sometimes that takes more than one shot. I'm just commenting on firearms training and nothing else. Because everything else associated with these shootings makes no sense and brakes my heart.
If the suspect has a gun, shooting him in the ankle isn't going to stop him from shooting you. This isn't the movies where the cops shoot the gun out of the bad guys hand.
1
Police handguns are not that accurate, and they are cops, not trained snipers, so they hit center of mass to avoid hitting any passersbys.
1
Is it illegal in North Carolina to own a gun? Is it against the law to hold a pistol visibly? Let's face it - that is why Keith L. Scott was killed by police. He was "observed with a gun." There is no account he aimed it at police, and there is no claim that he fired the gun. I would think the NRA would be up in arms and out in full force, whether or not he actually did have a gun in his hand.
16
But they won't be, because if the police are telling the truth (and it was not a 'drop gun') he was open carrying while black, a variant on driving while black.
Attention must be shown concerning the role of police in providing first aid to those they shoot. We praise the deeds of "first responders" but fail to question the failures of the "no responders". Adding insult to injury?
2
I'm not really trying to tell the editors how to do their job (maybe I am), but can we get something straight?
When people are marching around, angrily yelling, carrying signs, etc., that's a protest.
When people are destroying property, that's a riot.
When people are marching around, angrily yelling, carrying signs, etc., that's a protest.
When people are destroying property, that's a riot.
37
Disturbing posts here blaming BLM.
None of the unarmed black men killed by police officers died because of BLM.
Seriously check yourselves! Slamming BLM is a dead giveaway.
None of the unarmed black men killed by police officers died because of BLM.
Seriously check yourselves! Slamming BLM is a dead giveaway.
7
What does it take to convict a police officer of manslaughter?
1
Reading while black. Or more properly, while being a black male. Is there anything they do which does not evoke homicidal fear on the part of the police?
3
I understand what's happening. It's racial but a secondary cause is bad police training, psychologically unfit cops & millions of guns.
Years ago I was falsely arrested & beaten by police while a dozen officers watched w/ pleasure telling me I was receiving "an attitude adjustment." I broke no law & the charges against me were dropped later that day. I won a civil judgement after watching cops who beat me commit perjury. I start now from the position of not trusting or believing the police. I'm a middle aged white woman. If I'd been a black teenager, the police might have killed me that night instead of just beating me up.
The Tulsa & Charlotte cases are homicides. Something must be done as the greatest danger is to African-American lives & the 2nd greatest danger is police contempt for all civilians. Police must rat out racist cops. Hiring standards & training must catch & remove racists. Police districts need civilian complaint review boards.
Lastly all cops must wear body cameras - no excuses. & police who murder must be prosecuted & imprisoned.
Lastly, the NRA must own some of this for pushing everyone to be armed - resulting in a police culture that claims every civilian stopped is armed w/intent to murder. Often not true but NRA gun culture led here - giving police a rationale for murder. This is a racist right wing stew of racism/gun madness/pathological cops enabling a police murder culture.
A widespread police murder culture. Call it what it is.
Years ago I was falsely arrested & beaten by police while a dozen officers watched w/ pleasure telling me I was receiving "an attitude adjustment." I broke no law & the charges against me were dropped later that day. I won a civil judgement after watching cops who beat me commit perjury. I start now from the position of not trusting or believing the police. I'm a middle aged white woman. If I'd been a black teenager, the police might have killed me that night instead of just beating me up.
The Tulsa & Charlotte cases are homicides. Something must be done as the greatest danger is to African-American lives & the 2nd greatest danger is police contempt for all civilians. Police must rat out racist cops. Hiring standards & training must catch & remove racists. Police districts need civilian complaint review boards.
Lastly all cops must wear body cameras - no excuses. & police who murder must be prosecuted & imprisoned.
Lastly, the NRA must own some of this for pushing everyone to be armed - resulting in a police culture that claims every civilian stopped is armed w/intent to murder. Often not true but NRA gun culture led here - giving police a rationale for murder. This is a racist right wing stew of racism/gun madness/pathological cops enabling a police murder culture.
A widespread police murder culture. Call it what it is.
25
Was an excuse waiting to happen. These rioters are driven by violence and hate rather than by any legitimate gripe. The shooter was also a black and yet they carry on, regardless. Civilization has broken down and it's all because of the fact that this has been encouraged by many politicians who stand to gain by the hate and division and by the media who want to see them elected.
23
Maybe the Rioters are equally upset that another (Black) person was killed by the Police regardless of the race of the Policeman that did the killing?
Not seeing how that's not reasonable?
Not seeing how that's not reasonable?
3
I think that might be a bit simplistic. Rioters can be driven by a desire by violence and hate, but they can be also motivated by overwhelming frustration. I know we don't have all the data, but the initial impression of the shooting is that it is impossible, as a black man in the US to act in a manner that guarantees you due process. The race of the officer matters little. It is the race (and gender) of the victim that ties incidents together.
9
Throwing rocks through windows of moving cars can and do kill people I guess you are ok with this because the rioters were "upset"? How about we all wait to hear what the results of the investigation is? How about we deal with this non-violently? How about not rushing to judgement? Oh, wait that only works for certain segments of our society right?
Whatever happened to "an armed society is a polite society?"
I guess the NRA lied about that one, too.
I guess the NRA lied about that one, too.
21
so you think the black protestors should be armed and firing on the police?
If these "thorough investigations" don't start leading to convictions, they're not going to do much to quell the rioting.
27
Or, you might start reconsidering your thinking given that the judicial system has determined that in most of these cases, the officers are exonerated. But of course, that would require that you believe in law and order, and you sir, apparently do not.
We live in a world where everything has to be a zero-sum game, where either the cop is a racist or the victim is a criminal. It's possible for both scenarios to be true, or neither to be true. Individual cops can be good or bad, like the rest of society. Same with victims of lethal police force. Cops can be good people but poorly trained or incompetent.
The main problem is distrust between police and certain communities. It might not seem fair, but it's up to law enforcement agencies to do a better job of building trust and training officers. Cops have to rise above the standards of everyone else. They have a tough job and a unique responsibility, and they have to get better at it. When you hold the power of life and death over others, your goal should be to bat 1.000 in every high-risk situation.
Having said that, looting stores and burning cargo from trucks is not the answer. Anger is understandable. Mindless destruction is not.
The main problem is distrust between police and certain communities. It might not seem fair, but it's up to law enforcement agencies to do a better job of building trust and training officers. Cops have to rise above the standards of everyone else. They have a tough job and a unique responsibility, and they have to get better at it. When you hold the power of life and death over others, your goal should be to bat 1.000 in every high-risk situation.
Having said that, looting stores and burning cargo from trucks is not the answer. Anger is understandable. Mindless destruction is not.
117
"Anger is understandable."
Often the anger is being stoked by manipulative reporting by the media--prominently the NY Times--in using selective emphasis to have a story fit with the media's activist agenda.
Often people do not get beyond headlines in fixing their anger. NYT: "Protests Erupt in Charlotte After Police Kill a Black Man" .... "The shooting was the latest in a long string of deaths of black people at the hands of Police"
A more objective summary of the situation--one without a sympathetic bias--would be: "Rioting in Charlotte after Black Officer Kills a Black Man."
In its cheerleading of unrest, the media is part of the story.
Often the anger is being stoked by manipulative reporting by the media--prominently the NY Times--in using selective emphasis to have a story fit with the media's activist agenda.
Often people do not get beyond headlines in fixing their anger. NYT: "Protests Erupt in Charlotte After Police Kill a Black Man" .... "The shooting was the latest in a long string of deaths of black people at the hands of Police"
A more objective summary of the situation--one without a sympathetic bias--would be: "Rioting in Charlotte after Black Officer Kills a Black Man."
In its cheerleading of unrest, the media is part of the story.
great comment (especially the last bit about the looting), however police departments aren't doing themselves any favors by not working harder on weeding out the bad actors. The instinctive response to protect all of them under all circumstances and provide them with wide latitude (such as so many days to get their stories straight before being questioned) does zero for the trust they depend upon from the communities they police.
Unintentional death due to incompetence is called manslaughter in our country and usually carries a jail term of years. Even if you're correct, why has no one gone to jail?
The only crucial piece of information missing from this article is that the policeman, Officer Vinson is also black, and that the guy got out of his car with a weapon, seemingly wanting to attack the police. It would be nice if for once the NYT would give the full picture.
46
Please read the article before commenting next time.
"Officer Vinson is black, according to local reports."
"Although their accounts sometimes diverged, members of Mr. Scott’s family generally told local news outlets that he had not had a weapon. Instead, they said, he had been clutching a book while waiting to pick up a child after school."
So point 1: wrong, point 2: discussed, no conclusive evidence available yet.
"Officer Vinson is black, according to local reports."
"Although their accounts sometimes diverged, members of Mr. Scott’s family generally told local news outlets that he had not had a weapon. Instead, they said, he had been clutching a book while waiting to pick up a child after school."
So point 1: wrong, point 2: discussed, no conclusive evidence available yet.
3
"and that the guy got out of his car with a weapon, seemingly wanting to attack the police."
Citation needed. Getting out of a car with a gun does not mean that a person "seemingly want[s] to attack the police." That's the problem here.... critical thinking, please people. The police simply don't get to assume that anyone with a gun is an imminent and deadly threat. Hello, open carry?
Citation needed. Getting out of a car with a gun does not mean that a person "seemingly want[s] to attack the police." That's the problem here.... critical thinking, please people. The police simply don't get to assume that anyone with a gun is an imminent and deadly threat. Hello, open carry?
1
Reread the article:
"Officer Vinson is black, according to local reports."
"Officer Vinson is black, according to local reports."
3
There are two issues here...
1-Mistreatment of minority youth by police.
2-Out cultural abuse gun sickness on all sides that makes it so deadly.
Other peer countries do not have this sort of deadly problem. In their countries, minorities may be not treated equally but they are not routinely shot.
Blame goes on all sides re misuse of the gun here from Black youths to policemen and most Americans in between.
Solve our cultural abuse gun sickness and these protests will by and large disappear or at least will be greatly reduced.
1-Mistreatment of minority youth by police.
2-Out cultural abuse gun sickness on all sides that makes it so deadly.
Other peer countries do not have this sort of deadly problem. In their countries, minorities may be not treated equally but they are not routinely shot.
Blame goes on all sides re misuse of the gun here from Black youths to policemen and most Americans in between.
Solve our cultural abuse gun sickness and these protests will by and large disappear or at least will be greatly reduced.
10
You're missing another issue:
3 - The idea that throwing a rock through an innocent family's windshield is justified because a black cop shot a black suspect with a gun
3 - The idea that throwing a rock through an innocent family's windshield is justified because a black cop shot a black suspect with a gun
5
I didn't say that Ed...you projected it. Taking the law into ones hands is never right. Your response proved my point. The right will always hammer on that while ignoring the cultural abuse gun issue we have.
The left will always hammer on police brutality without facing up to their own abuse of guns in their areas. They are rampant in Black areas just like in the rest of the country.
That is why the issue is so hard to cure. Both sides are dug in.
The left will always hammer on police brutality without facing up to their own abuse of guns in their areas. They are rampant in Black areas just like in the rest of the country.
That is why the issue is so hard to cure. Both sides are dug in.
1
Every time I see a riot erupt as a reaction to a police shooting, I feel less inclined to listen to the so-called conversation on race in this country. Criminal violence of any kind should not rewarded or encouraged by appeasement or deference.
28
Me too. Not listening any more.
"Criminal violence of any kind should not rewarded or encouraged by appeasement or deference." Even when the police do it.
2
Narratives are the new facts. Circle the wagons.
11
Looting, arson, and assault are not 'protests'. They are crimes.
70
Almost as bad as murder, manslaughter,...
"Looting, arson, and assault are not 'protests'. They are crimes."
On 2nd thought not nearly as bad.
"Looting, arson, and assault are not 'protests'. They are crimes."
On 2nd thought not nearly as bad.
1
Maybe they should just kneel during the Anthem?
2
Watch the video of the man being killed and if you don't feel like tossing a brick through a window something is wrong. If you do feel it that's about 1/100th of what these people feel. I don't condone what they're doing but I understand it.
2
One would almost think that police departments want a race war. This disturbing pattern is making a mockery out of our criminal justice system and our alleged police services. There is no excuse!
8
This type of inept police shootings will continue until there are real consequences for the officers who commit them. It seems to me there is a pervasive attitude in the police culture that perpetuates the idea that the life of a police officer is far more sacred than the life of a civilian and that when faced with a potentially dangerous circumstance it's better for a cop to shoot first and ask questions later. The police feel comfortable with this approach as they seem to have almost total immunity from prosecution or from even being fired. Most get temporary desk duty and even a raise.
The bar used to be that if an officer "clearly" sees a suspect holding a gun and refuses to comply with an order to "freeze" an officer then had the right to shoot.Today they shoot when there is no weapon in sight and the suspects hands are in the air. If your shooting someone in that situation your either a sadist, a racist or someone who doesn't have the right constitution to serve. Or maybe all three?
The bar used to be that if an officer "clearly" sees a suspect holding a gun and refuses to comply with an order to "freeze" an officer then had the right to shoot.Today they shoot when there is no weapon in sight and the suspects hands are in the air. If your shooting someone in that situation your either a sadist, a racist or someone who doesn't have the right constitution to serve. Or maybe all three?
34
Protesting is a right.
Looting a store in your own neighborhood is a felony and is beyond stupid for detracting from the original reason for the gathering.
Looting a store in your own neighborhood is a felony and is beyond stupid for detracting from the original reason for the gathering.
71
How does the looting have anything to do with the issue. It doesnt.
1
The logical scenario is that he got out with a gun before seeing them, then got back in his car.
How many white people were killed by cops last week?
Yawn.....white people killed by cops? not newsworthy.
Yawn.....white people killed by cops? not newsworthy.
17
Is it a riddle? If so, not a good one.
1
You're right...whites being killed by cops is not newsworthy. That's because when whites are killed by cops, except in very rare circumstances, it isn't BECAUSE they're white.
I don't agree with the BLM movement on every point, but there's no denying that racist policing still exists in the US.
I don't agree with the BLM movement on every point, but there's no denying that racist policing still exists in the US.
4
I spent ten minutes searching and found none.
1
I'm struggling to understand why The Times feels it's relevant to include the race in headline (always!) when the cop is white but not when the cop is black (as is the case here).
55
No, no you don't. Don't play coy.
Put on your thinking cap and try to understand how race could have played a role in this incident not withstanding the fact that the cop who shot the victim was black.
Put on your thinking cap and try to understand how race could have played a role in this incident not withstanding the fact that the cop who shot the victim was black.
2
"interfering with the right to peaceably assemble, or prohibiting the petitioning for a governmental redress of grievances."
I'm very supportive of peaceful, legal protest. Police officers injured, stores and trucks looted and traffic stopped is not peaceful, legal protest and it certainly isn't Constitutionally protected.
I'm very sympathetic to the victims and their families. I'm not at all sympathetic to mob rule.
I'm very supportive of peaceful, legal protest. Police officers injured, stores and trucks looted and traffic stopped is not peaceful, legal protest and it certainly isn't Constitutionally protected.
I'm very sympathetic to the victims and their families. I'm not at all sympathetic to mob rule.
23
Why don't you report the statistics: More white men are killed by the police than black... There cannot be a fair discussion if you only sensationalize one race.
21
Of course as there are far more white persons in America than blacks. But that is not the point. The point is why these persons are killed by police. Innocent white. Innocent black. Something has to change.
Yes, but then again there are a lot more white men than black. Actually the Rate of black men killed by police, based on population) is 2.5 times Larger than the Rate of white men killed by police.
2
Well, you know, there are lots more white men in America than black men. There can't be a fair discussion until you understand that very, very important fact.
2
"Posed an imminent deadly threat" is starting to sound like police code for shooting an innocent unarmed man of color with no justification in order to get away with it in America.
It's the 21st century and a big black guy like myself can be shot and killed because of my skin color and physical size; regardless of whether I am doing anything illegal or not. Just being who I am is a justification for a police officer to execute me on the spot without charge, evidence, proof, trial, conviction or sentencing.
Anyway for those whose patriotic feathers were ruffled, Tulsa and Charlotte demonstrate why black professijal athletes are kneeling on the sidelines before the playing of this nation's national anthem. Oh say, can YOU see?
It's the 21st century and a big black guy like myself can be shot and killed because of my skin color and physical size; regardless of whether I am doing anything illegal or not. Just being who I am is a justification for a police officer to execute me on the spot without charge, evidence, proof, trial, conviction or sentencing.
Anyway for those whose patriotic feathers were ruffled, Tulsa and Charlotte demonstrate why black professijal athletes are kneeling on the sidelines before the playing of this nation's national anthem. Oh say, can YOU see?
341
"Unarmed man?"...I dont think you read the article.
3
No, you didn't. It's not at all established whether he had a gun or a book. "He had a gun" is a knee-jerk police response. And if he did, and "officers" saw it, why did only one of them shoot? They would have ALL shot, if that were the case.
1
"Oh say can YOU see?" Excellent!!
1
When the New York bombing suspect was shot, why didn’t your headline reflect; Police Shoot a White Man. It appears you’re generating press by making this racial. In every single one of these shootings and deaths you’ve been headlining, 100% of those were because the person was not following the instructions of the police officer.
I used to be a police officer. The officer is the authority in these situations and I can assure you that the officer doesn’t care about the race or gender of the person that’s refusing to follow the police officer’s instruction. When they don’t do as they’re told, or refuse to show their hands, the officer has to assume they may be wanted, dangerous and a danger to the officer and the general public. Why else are they refusing to follow the instructions of the officer?
Why do we have this disrespect of authority? It is about our politics? What are they teaching in schools that has them refusing to follow the instructions of the authority? It’s really simple: Do what the nice police officer tells you. Millions do, and therefore, no deaths and no headlines.
I used to be a police officer. The officer is the authority in these situations and I can assure you that the officer doesn’t care about the race or gender of the person that’s refusing to follow the police officer’s instruction. When they don’t do as they’re told, or refuse to show their hands, the officer has to assume they may be wanted, dangerous and a danger to the officer and the general public. Why else are they refusing to follow the instructions of the officer?
Why do we have this disrespect of authority? It is about our politics? What are they teaching in schools that has them refusing to follow the instructions of the authority? It’s really simple: Do what the nice police officer tells you. Millions do, and therefore, no deaths and no headlines.
34
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that we supposedly do not live in a police state here in America. We supposedly have civil rights.
1
So you you feel the bomb-making suspect politely "[did] what the nice police officer [told him]" and that's why he was wounded but not killed? Consider this bomber suspect was identified as armed and dangerous with notice for him broadcast by reverse 911.
Whereas the man in Charlotte had not been ID'd as a suspect of any crime -- but was shot dead. Indeed he was not a suspect of anything. By your assertion his death sentence was that that he was not polite enough?
Forgive me for being rude to your logic but I don't understand. So shoot me.
Whereas the man in Charlotte had not been ID'd as a suspect of any crime -- but was shot dead. Indeed he was not a suspect of anything. By your assertion his death sentence was that that he was not polite enough?
Forgive me for being rude to your logic but I don't understand. So shoot me.
3
Why do we have this abuse of authority? If I'm unarmed, wrongly pulled over, ordered out of my car, ordered to my knees, told to lay face down and hand cuffed in public, there is certainly a point in that process, where for my own dignity, I will refuse to follow such instructions. Please don't shoot me. I have a wife and two children.
1
For all those liberals who will be quick to jump on the evils of the police, can we pause from our social justice warrioring for a moment and actually look at the facts?
http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399
From the abstract:
"On the most extreme use of force – officer involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account. We argue that the patterns in the data are consistent with a model in which police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for discrimination, who incur relatively high expected costs of officer-involved shootings."
http://www.nber.org/papers/w22399
From the abstract:
"On the most extreme use of force – officer involved shootings – we find no racial differences in either the raw data or when contextual factors are taken into account. We argue that the patterns in the data are consistent with a model in which police officers are utility maximizers, a fraction of which have a preference for discrimination, who incur relatively high expected costs of officer-involved shootings."
22
This is a post truth, post facts narrative and a post facts, post truth paper of record. Get with the flow and let your feelings make up your mind.
702 American citizens have been shot and killed by the police this year to date. The number of police officers killed is 51. If we remove race from the equation as you suggest, that's still an outrageous number of people shot and killed by the police. Regardless of race, this country has a police murdering civilians problem. Maybe you should direct your attention to that problem instead of the so-called "liberals" rightfully criticizing the police for their murderous behavior.
Moreover, it appears that NC is an open carry state. Therefore, why is a black man getting out of his car with a gun in an open carry state suddenly a threat to the police?
And therein is the lie of open carry—it ONLY applies to white people. And that's a fact.
Black Lives Matter
Moreover, it appears that NC is an open carry state. Therefore, why is a black man getting out of his car with a gun in an open carry state suddenly a threat to the police?
And therein is the lie of open carry—it ONLY applies to white people. And that's a fact.
Black Lives Matter
The black lives matters movement does not care at all about the truth. The continue to rush to judgment and distort, if not blatantly lie, in order to grab attention.
Even worse, they destroy and create chaos instead of proposing suggestions to improve the situation.
There is no doubt in my mind that the biggest problem with the black community is the complete failure of their leaders, since they continue to embrace lies and resist efforts that actually work (e.g. charter schools).
Even worse, they destroy and create chaos instead of proposing suggestions to improve the situation.
There is no doubt in my mind that the biggest problem with the black community is the complete failure of their leaders, since they continue to embrace lies and resist efforts that actually work (e.g. charter schools).
25
We read and watch with horror the moments when an innocent person is struck down when we would all hope that police action can be surgically applied in every situation sparing lives while maintaining safety for the community and police. It is tragic when a 12 year old is shot on a playground wielding a toy gun. However, I do not see the daily lives of officers described in the press and the intolerable work conditions that they suffer. I cannot imagine being a police officer in a world where you are asked to enter communities where death and violence pervade, where the crime element is so large that you can't readily identify friend or foe, and where you're presumed guilty before the evidence is in. The current situation is unsustainable for all parties. In the end, we may have a police force that can't recruit people, that won't extend themselves for fear of their own lives and liberty and the communities will only suffer more.
59
And let's not forget about the guns. Everyone has a gun. Funny how the NRA, in their push to arm everyone in the country, sort of "forgot" that black people have gun rights too. Whoops!
If we cannot recruit people to the police force, we all owe the NRA a big thank you for making their jobs much much harder.
If we cannot recruit people to the police force, we all owe the NRA a big thank you for making their jobs much much harder.
1
You don't look hard enough./ Every year there is at least one article in one of the major news media outlets that discusses, follows, and/or interviews police about their jobs.
As far as what they do, that's the job they took. I don't see articles about trash collectors dealing with the smell and gross stuff they have to fling in the back of the trick everyday.
As far as cops being found "guilty", that may be done in the eye of the public, but rare does any cop get caught, and even more rare are any convictions.
so, no, they don't have too that bad when it comes to the justice system.
As far as what they do, that's the job they took. I don't see articles about trash collectors dealing with the smell and gross stuff they have to fling in the back of the trick everyday.
As far as cops being found "guilty", that may be done in the eye of the public, but rare does any cop get caught, and even more rare are any convictions.
so, no, they don't have too that bad when it comes to the justice system.
1
I believe crime is at an all time low...so where exactly is the crime element "so large" (yes, in certain pockets...but your statement is overly broad) and as for the reference to Tamir Rice, there is absolutely no way that that shooting was justified. The cruiser pulled up from a race towards him, stopped within yards of him (why so close?) and within 2 seconds of the door opening, the police shot him. Where/when was the situation assessed by the police? Where was the time given to get things under control? Active shooter I may be inclined to understand, but regardless of what Tamir has on his person, the actions of those two officers were to shoot him upon their arrival - and that is not policing.
3 unarmed black men (well, 2 men and 1 boy) killed by police under questionable circumstances in less than a week.
I don't agree with rioting as the response, but the fact is that something has gone terribly wrong with policing in this country, and needs to be fixed. Fixing it is going to require doing some things that the police really really don't want to allow, like holding officers personally accountable when they kill people without justification.
I don't agree with rioting as the response, but the fact is that something has gone terribly wrong with policing in this country, and needs to be fixed. Fixing it is going to require doing some things that the police really really don't want to allow, like holding officers personally accountable when they kill people without justification.
23
dave. maybe things like holding those who pull out guns like Scot did, need to also be condemned. Act like a thug, die like one.
1
The police in NJ acted with professional restraint when AFTER having been shot, took the bombing suspect into custody by wounding him, NOT killing him. The suspect is now available to be questioned.
Is it lack of training, lack of professional conduct, or cowardice that leads to the fatal shooting of unarmed people when they do not appear to be a threat? We know that racism has been responsible for many tragedies. I believe that what we have been calling "fear" is truly acts of cowardice as well as hatred. I am ashamed of the consequences of these horrible shootings.
Is it lack of training, lack of professional conduct, or cowardice that leads to the fatal shooting of unarmed people when they do not appear to be a threat? We know that racism has been responsible for many tragedies. I believe that what we have been calling "fear" is truly acts of cowardice as well as hatred. I am ashamed of the consequences of these horrible shootings.
35
Did you ever consider that it was simply a random incident that Rahami was wounded - not killed? After all he was running and not an easy target with a pistol.
3
Police never shoot to wound. If a gun is to be used in a battle, all shots are directed to the center of mass. The "shoot him in the leg" is Hollywood.
The reason the bomber suspect is alive is the police missed.
The reason the bomber suspect is alive is the police missed.
4
We have to be careful here. Because in the midst of this racial outrage we are creating a dangerous echo chamber. There is at this point a rush to judgement of police that is a hairs breadth from the kind of profiling that we are accusing them of. In the same way we abhor the notion that black males could be seen as potentially violent because black males kill at a higher percentage in this country than say Asians do, we now see cops as a priori bigoted and racist and rush to judge every action that involves a black person.
There is no doubt in my mind that someone needs to start to quickly change the police playbook in this country to try and reduce the potential for fatal confrontations like this. But these riots. The general anti-cop vibe that is trending these days is stoking the problem and no doubt in many situations increasing the confrontational tone against police who are now just seen as bad people. You don't fight bigotry with bigotry.
There is no doubt in my mind that someone needs to start to quickly change the police playbook in this country to try and reduce the potential for fatal confrontations like this. But these riots. The general anti-cop vibe that is trending these days is stoking the problem and no doubt in many situations increasing the confrontational tone against police who are now just seen as bad people. You don't fight bigotry with bigotry.
141
Problem Ygi,
The folks that are rioting/protesting, (I really don't care how it's categorized) don't see LE being held accountable for these (to me) UNJUST incidents.
I know I fail to see the accountability and this from someone that can't stand the Protest/Riots that follow. But I honestly don't see them as a Problem as much as i see them as an unfortunate result.
The folks that are rioting/protesting, (I really don't care how it's categorized) don't see LE being held accountable for these (to me) UNJUST incidents.
I know I fail to see the accountability and this from someone that can't stand the Protest/Riots that follow. But I honestly don't see them as a Problem as much as i see them as an unfortunate result.
4
The most powerful weapon against an anti-cop vibe would be when the cops themselves call out bad cops and the culture of brotherhood that protects bad cops/bad practices.
2
why are citizens carrying weapons? tell them to leave them at home or take their chances.
I am confused by the headline choices. When a black person is killed, the headline and the reporting identifies the person as being black. However, when the reporting is about a black person assaulting someone or committing a robbery, the headlines and the reporting talks about a "5' 9" man with jeans and t-shirt" even though the accompanying picture shows a black person. Is there perhaps an unconscious bias of not wanting to show black persons as perpetrators?
41
Your question is really shocking to me. How anyone who knows anything about the history of this great nation could possibly conclude that we have an "unconscious bias of not wanted to show black persons as perpetrators" is unfathomable to me. The exact opposite has been true since the time of our founding.
Twelve police injured? Property stolen and destroyed. These are not "protesters". These are rioters.
Why can't the NYT be honest about anything?
Why can't the NYT be honest about anything?
53
It doesnt fit the narrative.
6
So Mike James what do you call the men who looted the ships and threw over the tea in Boston which prompted the Revolutionary War? Where those men looters too? I don't think so.....
2
"Protests . . . after Police Kill a Black Man"
A perfect example of a sensational headline designed to get the maximum number of clicks and the most attention. It could just as easily have been "Protests after a black cop shoots an armed suspect" - but would not have the same effect.
The real media bias: the selection and presentation of information designed to enflame and even enrage, regardless of social cost, for the sake of higher ratings.
A perfect example of a sensational headline designed to get the maximum number of clicks and the most attention. It could just as easily have been "Protests after a black cop shoots an armed suspect" - but would not have the same effect.
The real media bias: the selection and presentation of information designed to enflame and even enrage, regardless of social cost, for the sake of higher ratings.
45
But dead man wasn't a suspect. The article states that "officers were trying to serve an arrest warrant for another person in an apartment complex."
3
The Times is little better than buzzfeed when it comes to click bait headlines these days.
2
"Armed suspect"? We don't know that yet, not for certain. Why was he being approached at all, if he was not the subject of the warrant being served? He was not a suspect anyway, he was a citizen going about his normal business. It could be anyone, it could be you or me who is suddenly and unexpectedly in the middle of a police situation. Furthermore, while race is a primary issue and a turning point that has brought these matters to wide public attention, it is not the only factor. Unwarranted shootings and arrests of those with light skin happen as well. To my eyes, the statistics indicate that too many people of all races are being shot and killed by police officers. We are a violent nation, so police respond to that fact, but we need to seek ways, overall, to reduce gun violence and murder.
3
I used to live in Charlotte, and I'm on an emergency response team for the government. I got into this field because I want to help protect and help people first, then their property, then their environment. My dedication to serve is so very strong. I know I would've been called out to the I-85 truck looting and fires, and my first priority would be to make sure everyone is okay before I began making sure the property/environment was protected. To imagine that I could have been assaulted or killed by the throwing of rocks and objects off of bridges or physically assaulted by a rioter really baffles and scares me. It would take away my ability to help people and the environment. The outrage, anger and protests are undoubtedly justified, but what if your anger hurts the wrong people?
91
This seems to be just the sort of sensational reporting that will aid the Trump campaign.
I'm not sure what the answer is. But your statement and question totally ignores the fact that the local government murdered a sovereign civilian for no good reason. And this is not the first time. Or the second... So when the authorities come to murder you and your neighbors, but are never held accountable, you find a way to bring attention to the issue. Like I said - I'm not sure what the answer is. But if this was happening to me, my family, my neighbors - I'd be protesting in the streets too
1
Very good points. Re "what if your anger hurts the wrong people", I'll think that's the whole point of a protest. It is a call to corrective action. Those that can bring change, and the rest of us that don't believe in such barbaric protests should act well before frustrations boil over to these crazy levels. If we fail to act, then I guess we are just as responsible for the mayhem. I say, let's act now. Let's all march peacefully for tighter gun controls, and reductions in the use of firearms by law enforcement. At the very least, our law enforcement officers should be trained to save the lives of those that they shoot, even if the shooting is justified.
At least a part of the problem is the guns everywhere laws; open carry, concealed carry, no-holds-barred, no permit required, free for all wild west mentality.
People ready to blow like a fifty amp fuse.
Twitching like a finger
On the trigger of a gun
Leaving nothing but the dead and dying...back in my little town.
People ready to blow like a fifty amp fuse.
Twitching like a finger
On the trigger of a gun
Leaving nothing but the dead and dying...back in my little town.
16
What some comments fail to recognize is that police have been serving warrants for a hundred years. They enter tough neighborhoods and hosing projects to do so. The overwhelming number of these incidents end without deadly force being used. The same is true for traffic stops and most police/civilian encounters. So anytime deadly force is used there should be questions asked and the use of deadly force should have to be justified and measured against high standards.
This is not denigrating police. It is simply holding them to the standards that society expects after years of training, careful supervision and allowing them to carry a firearm and use it in the public interest under limited circumstances.
What these most recent shooting illustrate is that there are one set of standards that seem to apply to white neighborhoods and another lower set that apply to blacks. Whites and blacks become intoxicated and unruly, both exhibit strange behavior because of drug use, many of both races have serious mental disorders and poverty sometimes cultivates negative behavior.
But race has been documented by recent studies to be a factor that increases the likelihood that if the subject of a police encounter is black, there is a higher likelihood of violence. The study was careful to only compare incidents that were similar in most respects, except for the race of the subject.
This is why there are protests, anger and a growing sense of rebellion when these incidents occur.
This is not denigrating police. It is simply holding them to the standards that society expects after years of training, careful supervision and allowing them to carry a firearm and use it in the public interest under limited circumstances.
What these most recent shooting illustrate is that there are one set of standards that seem to apply to white neighborhoods and another lower set that apply to blacks. Whites and blacks become intoxicated and unruly, both exhibit strange behavior because of drug use, many of both races have serious mental disorders and poverty sometimes cultivates negative behavior.
But race has been documented by recent studies to be a factor that increases the likelihood that if the subject of a police encounter is black, there is a higher likelihood of violence. The study was careful to only compare incidents that were similar in most respects, except for the race of the subject.
This is why there are protests, anger and a growing sense of rebellion when these incidents occur.
40
On Monday, the police brilliantly subdued an armed terrorist who was actually shooting at them without killing him. Why is it that unarmed "dangerous dudes" keep winding up dead?
235
This is exactly the conversation I had with my son (25yo and we r black ). The guy in New Jersey actually armed and started shooting at them first but still captured alive ! There is something deeply wrong in this country.
2
Jim Y, Didn't you read the part about the guy in Charlotte being armed?
Didn't you also read that the armed terrorist shot the first officer that tried to wake him up, even though he had been sleeping?
Didn't you also read that the armed terrorist shot the first officer that tried to wake him up, even though he had been sleeping?
Exactly Jim Y, the police involved in the terrorist incidence were as professional as police in Europe.
The police involved in the Tulsa shooting suffer from our cultural gun sickness (as does the rest of the country left and right).
The police involved in the Tulsa shooting suffer from our cultural gun sickness (as does the rest of the country left and right).
3
Please look at The Guardian who very day post the number and sometimes faces of the people shot and killed by police in the US.
Why is this not Terrorism, terrorism by the police on the people of this country. Over a thousand people were killed by police last year.
I am a white women so I'm not too concerned for my own safety when stopped for a traffic violation. I guess that the reason that so many white people don't care about the slaughter of mostly people of color in this country. Children can't play cowboys and Indians anymore, some cop may shoot them!
Come on people don't look to immigrants as the problem, lets clean up our own house first.
Did you know in many states it takes longer to be a beautician than a police officer!
Why is this not Terrorism, terrorism by the police on the people of this country. Over a thousand people were killed by police last year.
I am a white women so I'm not too concerned for my own safety when stopped for a traffic violation. I guess that the reason that so many white people don't care about the slaughter of mostly people of color in this country. Children can't play cowboys and Indians anymore, some cop may shoot them!
Come on people don't look to immigrants as the problem, lets clean up our own house first.
Did you know in many states it takes longer to be a beautician than a police officer!
53
Why is it not terrorism by the rioters?
2
Please stop assuming we are the bad guys and murdering us. Please hold your fellow officers and friends responsible for the violence they are perpetuating on our communities.
74
Please stop assuming they are our friends or fellow officers.
I am completely shocked NYT calls them protests and not riots. Not a single mention of the word "riot". Same goes for WAPO. Journalism folks! Peaceful protests! On a school night....
31
How would you prefer they Protest the killings or even Riot?
1
"Protesters." "Demonstrators." "Unrest."
The words the Times is looking for are "rioters" and "riots." The clear move by the Times and other liberal media to neutralize language, particularly on this topic so as to minimize and sanitize the violent acts of these mobs, is troubling and frankly Orwellian. Unfortunately for the Times, it's readers are educated and can read between the lines to interpret the PC newspeak.
The words the Times is looking for are "rioters" and "riots." The clear move by the Times and other liberal media to neutralize language, particularly on this topic so as to minimize and sanitize the violent acts of these mobs, is troubling and frankly Orwellian. Unfortunately for the Times, it's readers are educated and can read between the lines to interpret the PC newspeak.
98
Yes, we white liberals can read between the lines, but you are not reading between the lines. The reaction to the shooting is secondary to the shooting itself. The problem is all the guns in civilian hands and the idiots who carry them around. Police seem to be able to temper their reaction to armed whites, but not blacks. So there it is -- civilian guns and racist police. Those are the problems. So if officers continue to murder black people as they have been doing, what do you expect black people to do, sit on their hands and cry boo hoo? Political redress of grievance is not available to them because they are an oppressed minority. So, they protest. Police are going to have to modify their use of force continuum, and fear of one's life is not by itself justification to shoot. I don't have any idea what police are going to do about their deeply ingrained racism problem. There is no way that I believe that retraining or modified training is going to change anything.
1
So what would you call a bunch of college kids rioting and destroying property after a football game? Would you provide the same commentary?
But the armed men that occupied a federal office in Oregon can't be called terrorists, right?
I find is common thing, but still incredible, that people will use the actions of protesters who are outraged that a member of their community was fatally shot and murdered to ignore the main problem and that is that law enforcement is killing the black community without reason or cause. A man who placed explosive devices in New York was captured alive but a black man cannot even be breathe because that marks his death sentence.
90
No one will listen to or interact with "protestors" engaged in looting and arson. Any legitimate message gets lost in the noise.
We have no idea what the circumstances are of this incident yet. Police claim he was armed, family denies it.
The language you use clearly indicates you've established all the facts a priori, before an investigation has even started. You're jumping into a yawning chasm of assumption.
We have no idea what the circumstances are of this incident yet. Police claim he was armed, family denies it.
The language you use clearly indicates you've established all the facts a priori, before an investigation has even started. You're jumping into a yawning chasm of assumption.
11
This is another example, which happens over and over, almost every day. When I read stories of persons with AR15 openly carrying and being approached by police and not shoot or arrested them I know they are white. That is how the gun laws work. Open carry of fire arms is legal in NC and NO permit is required. This of course does not apply to anyone who is black. If a police officer sees anyone black with a firearm it is open season, a free fire zone, because they are "an imminent deadly threat to the officers" as the police spokesman said.
175
If everyone knows that "it is open season", why do they continue to do such things?
Do what things? Go about their business while being black? Carrying a weapon in an open carry state while being black?
You're not going to publish this but I want you to read it. Let's stop this citizen journalism called "comments" and leave journalism to the professionals, like all the great NYT reporters. These comments only sprout hate and give rise to creeps like Trump. In six hours this section will have 900 comments and most of them hate filled without seeing any evidence of what really happened in Charlotte.
14
This article is silent about the fact that the policeman was also black. You call that professional journalism? pathetic.
11
You correctly predicted the hate filled comment rush, only failing to predict it would be against police.
I rest my case.
1
The WPO reports that 702 people have been killed by police this year.
163 have been black.
Who are the other 539 ??
163 have been black.
Who are the other 539 ??
48
How many (of the killings) were:
Recorded, unarmed, wrong person, moved too fast, moved too slow, didn't move (at all), was tardy in the 8th grade, prefers margarine over butter, stranded on the road, shot in the back, walking in the store, armed with a loaded Toy Gun,..
Recorded, unarmed, wrong person, moved too fast, moved too slow, didn't move (at all), was tardy in the 8th grade, prefers margarine over butter, stranded on the road, shot in the back, walking in the store, armed with a loaded Toy Gun,..
4
If they were not African- American then you can assume the following:
the person shot was not only armed but they actually had fired at a P.O. or they were engaged in actuallly shooting at someone else. The occurrence of an unarmed white person being shot and killed by police is extremely rare. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that there are no instances in which a police officer needs to shoot someone. The problem is the shooting of Black men in situations in which they are both unarmed and are not even threatening an officer. As was shown in NJ this week, police have the ability to take prisoners alive when they want to.
the person shot was not only armed but they actually had fired at a P.O. or they were engaged in actuallly shooting at someone else. The occurrence of an unarmed white person being shot and killed by police is extremely rare. I don't think anyone has ever suggested that there are no instances in which a police officer needs to shoot someone. The problem is the shooting of Black men in situations in which they are both unarmed and are not even threatening an officer. As was shown in NJ this week, police have the ability to take prisoners alive when they want to.
4
Blacks make up 13% of our population. That means that only 91 blacks should have statistically been shot by police. Why the difference ?!
A quick google search suggests that North Carolina, and Charlotte in particular, are an "open carry" area. This is one aspect that should be including in the story -- whether holding a gun in public is actually legal at that particular location.
39
It's difficult to take "protests" seriously that immediately turn into a quest to liberate free stuff and burn what can't be taken. But people know riots when they see them. North Carolina just moved one point to Trump.
74
Exactly how do you want them to protest the killings?
3
In no way should looting and other riotous actions be condoned, but the fact is that in our country, only when there is a high price to be paid do some parts of our society, especially the poorer parts, get attention and, eventually, a response. When money (destruction) is involved, other people sit up and pay attention. At the same time, looting and burning often damages predominantly black areas, sometimes for decades, setting back economic progress as well.
There is another factor to be kept in mind. Having covered many demonstrations as a reporter, I have observed again and again that police efforts to "keep order" often sets off rioting (not the other way around). We do not have a tradition in our country of tolerating peaceful demonstrations and marches. They are often seen as a prelude to disruption and a great inconvenience for other citizens and to commerce (buying and selling). In Europe, it is different. People are permitted to peacefully virtually shutdown France at times to bring attention to wrongs. Here, police move in long before a peaceful event can generate the attention and change desired.
There is another factor to be kept in mind. Having covered many demonstrations as a reporter, I have observed again and again that police efforts to "keep order" often sets off rioting (not the other way around). We do not have a tradition in our country of tolerating peaceful demonstrations and marches. They are often seen as a prelude to disruption and a great inconvenience for other citizens and to commerce (buying and selling). In Europe, it is different. People are permitted to peacefully virtually shutdown France at times to bring attention to wrongs. Here, police move in long before a peaceful event can generate the attention and change desired.
4
Here...demagogues like Trump don't solve the issue, they enflame it, just like the rioters do.
Learn from history or forever be condemned to repeat its worst moments.
Learn from history or forever be condemned to repeat its worst moments.
1
Either there was a weapon, or there was not.
What is not so easy to understand is why residents feel free to use this incident to go on a rampage, destroying private property and looting. How does that help the problem?
What is not so easy to understand is why residents feel free to use this incident to go on a rampage, destroying private property and looting. How does that help the problem?
244
Or, a weapon was planted. Either/or thinking is rarely helpful in addressing complex problems.
3
Yes, unlike white college boys burning and looting after a great football game.... That's just good fun, right?
People are frustrated that this continues and absolutely NOTHING is being done to address the problem. Nothing.
People are frustrated that this continues and absolutely NOTHING is being done to address the problem. Nothing.
5
"Either there was a weapon, or there was not."
That's not the crux of the problem. In North Carolina it is both perfectly legal and incredibly common to have a gun in your car. White people do it with incredible regularity and it is not considered threatening. Even if there were a gun, which seems doubtful, it seems clear that Mr. Scott would be alive today if he were white.
That's not the crux of the problem. In North Carolina it is both perfectly legal and incredibly common to have a gun in your car. White people do it with incredible regularity and it is not considered threatening. Even if there were a gun, which seems doubtful, it seems clear that Mr. Scott would be alive today if he were white.
5
The common denominator is that the police feel threatened by civilians with firearms -which is legal in most states- and that does not support the narrative of guns making society safer. Law enforcement does not have the luxury of taking the time to determine who is "law abiding at the moment" and who is not.
264
Agreed, but a white mass shooter in Charlotte was taken into custody alive and well. It seems more likely if you have any melanin (armed or not), the police are less successful in that respect.
1
Law enforcement reacts to the cultural abuse gun sickness in this country.
In the end their view is if you can't beat it, you have to join it...
In the end their view is if you can't beat it, you have to join it...
2
Why don't unarmed black civilian men get an armed while white civilian Cliven Bundy and Lee Harvey Oswald pass?
The common denominator is that blacks are shot to death by cops while doing much less than white folks.
The common denominator is that blacks are shot to death by cops while doing much less than white folks.
1
Investigations into police shootings, video cameras on police, 100's of cases of police shootings absolved from the murders of black people, and still, the shootings go on.
Is this cycle of killings ever going to end?
Is this cycle of killings ever going to end?
52
We need better police, and the rules of engagement have to change. There are too many hot headed, ex military types in policing. There is escalation, not an attempt to calm things down. Officers don't retreat to safety if necessary, they stand their ground and shoot. Retreating to safety isn't "tough" and "commanding". Killing somebody is.
Police should not have rank, like sergeant, lieutenant, etc., and every time there is a "display of force" with huge tactical vehicles and other gear to throw gas on the fire. The entire culture is as if they are a paramilitary force. They are civilian peace keepers, but once a Marine, always a Marine, and if you are approached by a cop who is an ex Marine, you can expect to be talked to like a Marine recruit and he's your drill sergeant.
I cannot for the life of me, understand why police have to use lethal force in so many situations. Not long ago they shot a guy who was 20 feet away and had scissors. Scissors? You can kill an officer who has a firearm from 20 feet away with scissors? The police are trained to use deadly force in cases where it isn't necessary. They could fire a wounding shot below the waist, bring the suspect down, then arrest him instead of killing somebody. If the suspect has a firearm, shoot to kill. The police are getting away with too much because they are obeying rules that should not be in place to start with.
Police should not have rank, like sergeant, lieutenant, etc., and every time there is a "display of force" with huge tactical vehicles and other gear to throw gas on the fire. The entire culture is as if they are a paramilitary force. They are civilian peace keepers, but once a Marine, always a Marine, and if you are approached by a cop who is an ex Marine, you can expect to be talked to like a Marine recruit and he's your drill sergeant.
I cannot for the life of me, understand why police have to use lethal force in so many situations. Not long ago they shot a guy who was 20 feet away and had scissors. Scissors? You can kill an officer who has a firearm from 20 feet away with scissors? The police are trained to use deadly force in cases where it isn't necessary. They could fire a wounding shot below the waist, bring the suspect down, then arrest him instead of killing somebody. If the suspect has a firearm, shoot to kill. The police are getting away with too much because they are obeying rules that should not be in place to start with.
5
The cycle of murders might decrease once we start punishing the police officers who shoot without cause and kill innocent civilians without reason. This is happening far too many times in America and it needs to stop.
Police officers who kill innocent civilians need to go to prison. Mandatory sentence. No plea deal. Even if the officer says, "I was in fear for my life" or "I thought he had a gun in his hand" and it turns out it was just a set of keys or a book. You take an innocent life, you go to prison. Simple. Period.
Police officers who kill innocent civilians need to go to prison. Mandatory sentence. No plea deal. Even if the officer says, "I was in fear for my life" or "I thought he had a gun in his hand" and it turns out it was just a set of keys or a book. You take an innocent life, you go to prison. Simple. Period.
1
"Not long ago they shot a guy who was 20 feet away and had scissors. Scissors?"
The general rule is that anyone with a knife or other edged weapon had the potential to kill you before you can respond if they are within 21 feet (7 yards) away.
The general rule is that anyone with a knife or other edged weapon had the potential to kill you before you can respond if they are within 21 feet (7 yards) away.
1
Many questions...hopefully we get transparent truthful and complete answers. Here's one:
If Mr. Scott wasn't the subject of the warrant police were serving, why did police approach him in the first place? Did he act or speak aggressively when police were nearby? Also, the story that he went into his car then got out with a gun after police approached is really tough to believe with no other info; Mr. Scott would've needed to be suicidal to pull out a gun as a black man with police attention focused on him. Maybe police in the helicopter had called him out as "...a bad dude."
#blackmenarentbaddudes
#soundslikemanslaughteragain
If Mr. Scott wasn't the subject of the warrant police were serving, why did police approach him in the first place? Did he act or speak aggressively when police were nearby? Also, the story that he went into his car then got out with a gun after police approached is really tough to believe with no other info; Mr. Scott would've needed to be suicidal to pull out a gun as a black man with police attention focused on him. Maybe police in the helicopter had called him out as "...a bad dude."
#blackmenarentbaddudes
#soundslikemanslaughteragain
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It may be tough to believe the story now, but then again, look at the Michael Brown case; everything that was initially thought to be true, wasn't. Even the "reliable" eyewitnesses who fed the 'hands up, don't shoot' narrative ended up changing their tune under further examination. Until the investigation is done and properly reported, everything in conjecture. The problem is that few people have time for the facts anymore. Protest first, assess the facts later, is the new normal.
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In this whole story it is difficult to know who was black or white and who was not.......
"If Mr. Scott wasn't the subject of the warrant police were serving, why did police approach him in the first place?"
Keith, How do you think police can identify anyone from a distance, without approaching anyone who might look similar?
This won't go over well, but the gender of the victim is a broader common denominator than race in these shootings.
If race were the only issue, then black women would also be shot in similarly questionable situations. They are not.
Men are treated much more harshly than women. Of course people will say that men are more likely to be criminals so the additional suspicion by police is justified. Ah, isn't that the same argument that made about blacks by indifferent whites when a black man is shot?
The hostility towards men in our society is evident in the many shootings of unarmed men of all colors. But nobody will point this out officially because its not politically correct.
If race were the only issue, then black women would also be shot in similarly questionable situations. They are not.
Men are treated much more harshly than women. Of course people will say that men are more likely to be criminals so the additional suspicion by police is justified. Ah, isn't that the same argument that made about blacks by indifferent whites when a black man is shot?
The hostility towards men in our society is evident in the many shootings of unarmed men of all colors. But nobody will point this out officially because its not politically correct.
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No, it's not. Can you tell me a case of a white man being shot while getting his license (as requested by the officer)?
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Violence, discrimination, insults, exclusion, denigration against men, particularly white men, is the one place where political correctness does not apply. Nobody mentions it, because it seems that our society thinks that "men" have it coming to them. Unless they are "gay men" in which case, plots cal correctness applies. This is one of the many reasons that we will never solve the gun problem. At the end of the day, the victims,,as men, are deemed to be less worthy.
2
If you only look at men shot and killed by police, race is the common denominator.
Black women are abused by police more than white women; they just don't receive as much coverage.
It's fascinating how people will bend over backwards and do all sorts of "logic gymnastics" to deny race has anything to do with police shootings.
Black women are abused by police more than white women; they just don't receive as much coverage.
It's fascinating how people will bend over backwards and do all sorts of "logic gymnastics" to deny race has anything to do with police shootings.
8
Retrain police officers to do their job without weapons. In Norway, a country where guns are widely owned by citizens, police officers' weapons are locked in their cars. If they need armed backup, it is available. (Because of concerns about terrorism, in 2015 Norway armed its police force. After a year, they decided that served no useful purpose and went back to an unarmed force). The key point however is that Norwegian police are trained to do their job without the use of deadly force. Police officers in the U.S. are trained to rely on their weapons to get a job done. No amount of body cameras or video is going to change the pattern of police killing unarmed people until they are taught to do their job differently. This will happen when we decide police officers are public servants, not an occupying army.
468
Send a few unarmed Norwegian police into the West side of Chicago and see how many return....
88
Agreed. Start with the Linden, New Jersey police. I understand a number of them brandished their weapons this week.
5
Yes..that's very nice for Norway, but I don't think that would go over so well in the USA. At least not in inner city areas...no way...no how.
There are smaller communities and cities all over the US...that rarely see a policeman use his weapon...and most never draw it.
There are smaller communities and cities all over the US...that rarely see a policeman use his weapon...and most never draw it.
12
I challenge any one of the outraged Social Justice Warriors, black or white, to enter a low income, predominantly black apartment complex to arrest a criminal while people are known to be armed.
We increasingly live in a world where reality doesn't matter and, very sadly, mob rules.
The mob riots, and the liberals rejoice. The mob persecutes police who are putting their lives on the line, and the liberals rejoice. When that mobs yanks said liberals out of their house/car and takes all their stuff, attacks them, are they still going to rejoice? Doubtful, they'll call the cops, who will come as always.
We increasingly live in a world where reality doesn't matter and, very sadly, mob rules.
The mob riots, and the liberals rejoice. The mob persecutes police who are putting their lives on the line, and the liberals rejoice. When that mobs yanks said liberals out of their house/car and takes all their stuff, attacks them, are they still going to rejoice? Doubtful, they'll call the cops, who will come as always.
149
"I challenge any one of the outraged Social Justice Warriors, black or white, to enter a low income, predominantly black apartment complex to arrest a criminal while people are known to be armed."
No taker here. But still - a man uninvolved in any crime is dead, shot dead by the police. Is that normal? Has it really become normal for you? There's a problem here, no?
No taker here. But still - a man uninvolved in any crime is dead, shot dead by the police. Is that normal? Has it really become normal for you? There's a problem here, no?
248
What does that have to do with shooting an unarmed person holding a book while waiting in a car?
Or do all black people live in public housing? Black people are 30% of the poor yet are over 70% of the images that compose the poor. Most black people are not poor and most poor people are not black.
Or do all black people live in public housing? Black people are 30% of the poor yet are over 70% of the images that compose the poor. Most black people are not poor and most poor people are not black.
37
Stu, you're (unknowingly) admitting the Police can't do their jobs in low income, predominately black areas, and you're challenging (folks that aren't the Police) civilians to do it for them. Just because they don't appreciate the police shooting and killing,..people.
Why do we have a selection, evaluation, training,..process if they can't do their jobs afterwards?
Why do we have a selection, evaluation, training,..process if they can't do their jobs afterwards?
26
The true face of BLM, loot at any opportunity. It is clear that BLM and the protesters have no interest in police shooting victims, they want to create chaos and loot and destroy property, and this news. Paper will now defend the justified anger.
105
How do you know that those looting were BLM supporters?
Oh, they are black and all black people belong to the same clubs? Just like Donald Trump is the leader of all white Americans, or do you afford your community more nuance?
Oh, they are black and all black people belong to the same clubs? Just like Donald Trump is the leader of all white Americans, or do you afford your community more nuance?
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Some may well feel that way. The majority don't as witnessed by previous protests and marches.
6
Really? "Living is easy with eyes closed." Isn't it Barbarika?
5