Interesting how disappointed so many posting here are that they cannot link this to Trump style propaganda and the fact that most of the victims were of Turkish or Albanian Muslim origin.
Lets not forget that the vast majority of gun crazed killers in America are White Christian Males- the same people who caused by far the majority of civilian deaths in the last century-no need to point fingers elsewhere.
Lets not forget that the vast majority of gun crazed killers in America are White Christian Males- the same people who caused by far the majority of civilian deaths in the last century-no need to point fingers elsewhere.
1
I was very moved by this article because this act just adds on to the many massacres that happened this summer. The German government states that he had no connection with the terrorist group ISIS but he did have an obsession with mass shootings. He was bullied in several schools which might have triggered his dangerous side. I personally think that with these incidents the government should improve its security. Many lives are being lost day by day and the fear of many grows.
Merkel's government has a history of suppressing ugly stories of attacks, rapes, and discord tied to the tsunami of largely unvetted Muslims and her party has been under considerable pressure. It's simply impossible to believe that in a few days investigators have been able to review the perpetrator's electronic devices, contacts, browsing history, emails and the like to reach a definitive conclusion that there is no terror link.
3
From Wikipedia "Gun legislation in Germany is considered among the strictest gun control in the world"
Yet with all those gun laws and all those restrictions what did they accomplish?
A deranged teenager was able to stand out in front of a McDonald's in broad daylight and commit mass murder.
And no one could stop him - WHY?
Because the only people disarmed by gun laws are law abiding citizens.
Criminals/Terrorists/Whackdo's always show up with a gun no matter how strict the law is.
Guns don't kill people
People Kill People
Gun Laws don't save lives they just make sure the innocent law abiding victims are disarmed.
This country must have a national concealed carry law and it needs it now!
Yet with all those gun laws and all those restrictions what did they accomplish?
A deranged teenager was able to stand out in front of a McDonald's in broad daylight and commit mass murder.
And no one could stop him - WHY?
Because the only people disarmed by gun laws are law abiding citizens.
Criminals/Terrorists/Whackdo's always show up with a gun no matter how strict the law is.
Guns don't kill people
People Kill People
Gun Laws don't save lives they just make sure the innocent law abiding victims are disarmed.
This country must have a national concealed carry law and it needs it now!
3
Slow rolled again by the NY Times
The shooter is unlikely to be anything but what the German police say he is. His family is secular and, if it has any vestigial Muslim leanings, would be Shia not Sunni. (Iranians are Shia; ISIS is Sunni. Never the twain shall meet under any circumstances.)
4
Who are these fools, neighbors, building residents, school peers, etc., who suddenly act like psychologists giving their third rate character or psyche analysis of a mass shooter? They can certainly share their view of the killer's behavior, their perspective, their interactions or their own feelings (e,g. feeling awkward, uncomfortable, fearful, scary, troubled, etc.). But to start providing psychoanalysis of these guys, be it the Orlando mass shooter, Nice driver-killer or Munich murderer, appears "like a bunch of ordinary attention seekers, or some kind cunning hidden collaborators" .
Is the new strategy for terrorists or terrorists-trainer...to look for screwed up people, lonely but aggressive people, troubled people, psychotic people, alienated people, overly angry but cognitively challenged people, etc. and then prod them, persuade them or propel them to commit heinous acts of violence...and then blame it all on the shooter's or killer's troubled psychology?
There needs to be a careful, out of sight, intelligent, objective investigation of these events, that also includes psychologists and sociologists. But ordinary people should not be acting like psychologists and counselors. We have enough problems with too many troubled people without having a lot of idiots, crazies, untrained and ill trained people acting like psychologists, social workers, counselors, coaches, etc.
Time for more mental health workers to be available to minority and immigrant men.
Is the new strategy for terrorists or terrorists-trainer...to look for screwed up people, lonely but aggressive people, troubled people, psychotic people, alienated people, overly angry but cognitively challenged people, etc. and then prod them, persuade them or propel them to commit heinous acts of violence...and then blame it all on the shooter's or killer's troubled psychology?
There needs to be a careful, out of sight, intelligent, objective investigation of these events, that also includes psychologists and sociologists. But ordinary people should not be acting like psychologists and counselors. We have enough problems with too many troubled people without having a lot of idiots, crazies, untrained and ill trained people acting like psychologists, social workers, counselors, coaches, etc.
Time for more mental health workers to be available to minority and immigrant men.
2
First thing I learned in psychology class: There are no "normal" people.
Everybody is neurotic at some level. We only differ in shades of grey around the average, which is only an aggregate of individual neuroticism.
Psychoses are a different class of their own. A neurotic knows that s/he is deviating in one way or another from the norm, although s/he may statistically be exactly on the aggregate 50% line. That's part of what makes us individuals.
A psychotic is totally convinced that s/he is perfectly right, even s/he is as wacko as anyone can imagine.
That kid in Munich knew what he was doing, but it was the only way for him to deal with his pain. He was NOT psychotic.
Understanding what happened and what drove him is not the same as absolving him. Nobody can and most people would not want to.
The problem with what you are proposing is that we would need 1/2 of mankind to permanently counsel the other 1/2.
The real problem is how to detect those who snap in the end. The recipe the liberals are advocating is to label anyone as dangerous who does not agree with their ideas. Naturally, those of us who don't share their ideas object. It is liberal arrogance that is splitting the country right now.
Everybody is neurotic at some level. We only differ in shades of grey around the average, which is only an aggregate of individual neuroticism.
Psychoses are a different class of their own. A neurotic knows that s/he is deviating in one way or another from the norm, although s/he may statistically be exactly on the aggregate 50% line. That's part of what makes us individuals.
A psychotic is totally convinced that s/he is perfectly right, even s/he is as wacko as anyone can imagine.
That kid in Munich knew what he was doing, but it was the only way for him to deal with his pain. He was NOT psychotic.
Understanding what happened and what drove him is not the same as absolving him. Nobody can and most people would not want to.
The problem with what you are proposing is that we would need 1/2 of mankind to permanently counsel the other 1/2.
The real problem is how to detect those who snap in the end. The recipe the liberals are advocating is to label anyone as dangerous who does not agree with their ideas. Naturally, those of us who don't share their ideas object. It is liberal arrogance that is splitting the country right now.
Lt's not rush to violence in video games as the cause. We don't need another Dr. Wertham EC Horror Comics debacle. If you are going to go that route then how do you justify sending young men off to war to kill and then expect them to return to normal society without PTSD? Has this outlawed war? Kids will be kids and the majority KNOW the difference between fantasy and reality. http://www.blumhouse.com/2016/04/07/dr-werthams-dilemma-the-rise-fall-of...
There are many troubled people in a world of top down control and so many rules the "rule of law" is an oppressive illusion.
What if government and all its armed law enforcers are unable to protect us? No matter how militarized, unfit for the task? As if government is fighting the last war?
What if we need to protect ourselves, and government might be correct when it fears we'll awaken to its oppressive nature and protect ourselves from it?
What if government and all its armed law enforcers are unable to protect us? No matter how militarized, unfit for the task? As if government is fighting the last war?
What if we need to protect ourselves, and government might be correct when it fears we'll awaken to its oppressive nature and protect ourselves from it?
Your argument made more sense in the age of Paul Revere. These days a rifle won't be a match to a drone or tank.
2
Jshwa:
Wrong! If an oppressive government has to wipe out all its people, there is nothing left to govern. The 2nd amendment is ensuring this stalemate to protect us from a dictator. However, without the means to resist, any government can enslave its people. Look no further than Turkey right now. That is exactly what is happening there. So far, a majority of the people are cheering Erdogan on, but at some point that will change when they realize what he has done. The Turkish intellectuals who are lucky enough to be outside the country will do all they can to remain there. Pity that by the time they realize what has happened, the common people won't have the means to resist. Fear will lead them into slavery.
That is precisely what the second amendment is intended to prevent.
It is perhaps the most important article of our Bill of Rights. That and the right of saying so.
Wrong! If an oppressive government has to wipe out all its people, there is nothing left to govern. The 2nd amendment is ensuring this stalemate to protect us from a dictator. However, without the means to resist, any government can enslave its people. Look no further than Turkey right now. That is exactly what is happening there. So far, a majority of the people are cheering Erdogan on, but at some point that will change when they realize what he has done. The Turkish intellectuals who are lucky enough to be outside the country will do all they can to remain there. Pity that by the time they realize what has happened, the common people won't have the means to resist. Fear will lead them into slavery.
That is precisely what the second amendment is intended to prevent.
It is perhaps the most important article of our Bill of Rights. That and the right of saying so.
1
Once again the shooter is a troubled young person whose moment is killing others an then himself. This has nothing to do wth his heritage. Until polititains consider hose with needing hope these type of occursrances will continue
Why is there little if any condemnation of this murder as an individual? Why is he not shamed and damned by our media and social elites instead of being portrayed as a victim, perhaps some how weirdly justified in his actions because our society did not satisfy his urges, read his mind and stop him or destroy every gun on earth so he could not get one. These individuals whether they are fully sane or not are obviously copy catting other mass killers, trying to achieve the fame and glory they can't get any other way because they are either dumb, lazy or both and can't get recognition by actually doing anything productive. Therefore, the most effective way to deter them is to remove their incentive of a desire for celebrity by having our media brainwashers associated them with everything that is "uncool", "intolerant", "disturbing", "Racist", "xenophobic", "sinful", "Fascist" ..... You know everything our media says about white people who think we ought to enforce our immigration and all the other laws and the parts of trade deals that benefit average Americans - that our 1% think are inconvenient for their rigging schemes.
1
Aside from the astounding lack of intelligence and compassion, this is one of the most distrubing comments I've read in this thred thus far.
2
We are living in troubled times. The fact, that we expect new ISIS related mass murders is partly dominating out thinking. When the Munich shooting started, I expected that it would endure for hours and would - similar to Paris - claim dozens of lives. What immediately went through my mind was several gunmen attacking civilians throughout the city. But thats the problem. We expect that to happen and then wonder, when a - thats now a hard word - a normal rampage took place. Now you may think its a cover up. Let us not (and I like that american term) jump to conclusion. Because it isn't. There are several facts to illustrate that. First it happened exactly on the day 5 years after Breijviks mass murder. Then, I hit nearly exclusively non german nationals. Why should ISIS care about the victims nationality. Then, they found a statement analogue to that of Breijvik. The guy was in psychiatric care. He was a mobbing victim in school, mobbed mostly by turkish kids (they say). All that does not fit to ISIS. It reminds me far more on Columbine High.
We have to be careful not to contract a paranoia with ISIS as a central element. There is a far better chance to overrun by a car or be shot by the own children by accident then being a victim of ISIS.
We have to be careful not to contract a paranoia with ISIS as a central element. There is a far better chance to overrun by a car or be shot by the own children by accident then being a victim of ISIS.
2
There was already another attack today: A Syrian migrant killed a woman with a machete in Reutlingen and injured two other people before he was run over by a car while chasing his victims. The government is at pains stating that there is no evidence that this was an act of terrorism....
Give me a break! Seriously!?
Because the police KNEW the killer was a troublemaker, but kept letting him prey on others in the name of PC!
Europe NEVER had things like this happen on a now almost daily basis.
Give me a break! Seriously!?
Because the police KNEW the killer was a troublemaker, but kept letting him prey on others in the name of PC!
Europe NEVER had things like this happen on a now almost daily basis.
5
Last week we had an ISIS attack in a train. Nobody hid it. Nobody did say, it was not related to ISIS. The link became obvious, when a self painted ISIS flag was found.
The today incident happened a couple of hours ago. Lets see, if ISIS claims something or if the investigators find something.
The today incident happened a couple of hours ago. Lets see, if ISIS claims something or if the investigators find something.
1
I'm not saying that ISIS was directly controlling the moron in Reutlingen. Only that the ISIS ideology fosters and encourages this kind of animalistic behavior and that it becomes part of the twisted and depraved motivation that goes into violent acts like that.
You are trying to see things in black and white, Michael. There are many shades of grey in between, and it is the black of ISIS poured into previously pure water that is creating an increasingly murky picture.
One way or another, you can't seriously tell me that the clustering of violence in Europe that started with the migrant flow is a pure, innocent coincidence.
Nobody can be that naive.
You are trying to see things in black and white, Michael. There are many shades of grey in between, and it is the black of ISIS poured into previously pure water that is creating an increasingly murky picture.
One way or another, you can't seriously tell me that the clustering of violence in Europe that started with the migrant flow is a pure, innocent coincidence.
Nobody can be that naive.
This article exemplifies the notion that terrorism is a political term. According to the article, this young man was not affiliated with ISIS, so he isn't called terrorist. Other reports say he converted to Christianity, as a result he wasn't labeled a terrorist. He idolized Breivik, but still, this mass murder is not consider terrorism. So if a white right winger commits mass murder, we can be sure that it is not terrorism according to our media.
5
Mass deportation of muslims from the West is a terrible idea. Mass killings of Westerners by muslims is a more terrible idea. At some point the West may be forced to accept reality, i.e., which terrible idea is required for the West to survive. Failing to act may result in the death of Western Civilization. Which terrible idea is less terrible..?
6
Did you read or watch any news??
What part of it was associated with a Muslim related problem?
It does not fit current agenda and no sensation but these are facts so get over it.
What part of it was associated with a Muslim related problem?
It does not fit current agenda and no sensation but these are facts so get over it.
3
Both cb and Samir are wrong, and are jumping to conclusions when the investigation is still proceeding. It is possible for a man man, or psychologically troubled man, to be used by terrorist groups for their violent agenda, just as it is possible for a troubled person, victim of bullying or not, to buy into terrorist propaganda. Being troubled and becoming a big trouble yourself are not mutually exclusive.
The question we must ask is why so many of these troubled people, who take up violence, are men, below 45, have easy access to guns, easily buy into religious or political propaganda and , instead of killing themselves or those just close to them, kill strangers? Thousands of young men grow up in abusive homes with a dictatorial father or parent, and are also bullied by other children, yet only an handful resort to mass shooting because of it...And these mass shooters are mostly Christians, White, Muslims and Middle Easterners. Something common in their neurology and psychology (or militaristic or militant upbringing) that has to be studied. You see any funding for this in the US, Europe or the Middle East?
Middle East rarely studies the psychology of domestic abusers and rapists in their country...though it tends to behead them or execute them when they are caught. It also does not study those who resort to violence for the State or opposing the State. Middle East needs to spend more money on social sciences, studies on psychology, behaviors, culture and social work.
The question we must ask is why so many of these troubled people, who take up violence, are men, below 45, have easy access to guns, easily buy into religious or political propaganda and , instead of killing themselves or those just close to them, kill strangers? Thousands of young men grow up in abusive homes with a dictatorial father or parent, and are also bullied by other children, yet only an handful resort to mass shooting because of it...And these mass shooters are mostly Christians, White, Muslims and Middle Easterners. Something common in their neurology and psychology (or militaristic or militant upbringing) that has to be studied. You see any funding for this in the US, Europe or the Middle East?
Middle East rarely studies the psychology of domestic abusers and rapists in their country...though it tends to behead them or execute them when they are caught. It also does not study those who resort to violence for the State or opposing the State. Middle East needs to spend more money on social sciences, studies on psychology, behaviors, culture and social work.
According to most recent reports from German SPIEGEL: The young man acted alone, but had planned this attack for well over a year, styling the action (even to the exact day) after amok-runner Brevik in Norway.
No evidence of ties to ISIS have been found.
He had been under psychiatric treatment for depresseion and anxiety, possibly linked to the mobbing he was experiencing at schools he attended.
The weapon, according to Police spokesmen was a reactivted theatre piece, originating from Slowakia.
Chatroom prototcols from his confiscated computer indicate he obtained it through 'Darknet'.
The BKA (Bundeskriminalamt) = German State Criminal Authority declares that an increasing number of foreign weapons are finding their into Germany.
(source: www.spiegel.de)
Hope this helps to answer some questions.
No evidence of ties to ISIS have been found.
He had been under psychiatric treatment for depresseion and anxiety, possibly linked to the mobbing he was experiencing at schools he attended.
The weapon, according to Police spokesmen was a reactivted theatre piece, originating from Slowakia.
Chatroom prototcols from his confiscated computer indicate he obtained it through 'Darknet'.
The BKA (Bundeskriminalamt) = German State Criminal Authority declares that an increasing number of foreign weapons are finding their into Germany.
(source: www.spiegel.de)
Hope this helps to answer some questions.
5
There are people which are not happy with the outcome of the investigation!
Does not fit their agenda and no sensations!
Does not fit their agenda and no sensations!
4
@samir
There will always be people who aren't happy about some aspect of the story--
I'm just translating the German news as it is being reported.
Besides--it's STILL an ongoing investigation.
There will always be people who aren't happy about some aspect of the story--
I'm just translating the German news as it is being reported.
Besides--it's STILL an ongoing investigation.
1
Once again we see the predictable comments here, of writers who jump to conclusions based on their particular predispositions: whether it's a wish to blame everything on Muslims, guns, bullying, or -- the latest -- immigrants "importing" Shiite vs. Sunni sectarianism.
This last idea -- Shia v. Sunni sectarianism -- seems to be based entirely on the report that the shooter's parents came from Iran. However the facts so far (anti-Turkish slogans, apparent targeting of immigrants from the Mediterranean region, and acting on the anniversary of the Norwegian massacre) suggest a different possibility:
This disturbed teenager may well have bought into the racist ideology of Anders Brevik and other northern European neo-Nazis, based on self-identification as "Aryan."
Iran (or Persia) is part of the historic Aryan people. In the 5th century BCE, the Persian king Darius the Great proclaimed himself as a "Persian ... and an Aryan" in his inscription in Naqshe-e-Rostam.
Could a young Iranian-German, fed up with being identified with "die Turken," and seeking to identify more with the country of his birth, find a link to neo-Nazi racist ideologies through a skewed obsession with his heritage?
It's worth considering before jumping to other conclusions.
This last idea -- Shia v. Sunni sectarianism -- seems to be based entirely on the report that the shooter's parents came from Iran. However the facts so far (anti-Turkish slogans, apparent targeting of immigrants from the Mediterranean region, and acting on the anniversary of the Norwegian massacre) suggest a different possibility:
This disturbed teenager may well have bought into the racist ideology of Anders Brevik and other northern European neo-Nazis, based on self-identification as "Aryan."
Iran (or Persia) is part of the historic Aryan people. In the 5th century BCE, the Persian king Darius the Great proclaimed himself as a "Persian ... and an Aryan" in his inscription in Naqshe-e-Rostam.
Could a young Iranian-German, fed up with being identified with "die Turken," and seeking to identify more with the country of his birth, find a link to neo-Nazi racist ideologies through a skewed obsession with his heritage?
It's worth considering before jumping to other conclusions.
6
“We cannot ignore — and I don’t know the solution, but without a doubt, and this was the case in this instance — that the glorifying of violence in internet games has a damaging effect on the development of young people,” Thomas de Maizière, the German interior minister, said on Saturday.
I believe this. In addition to gun control, we also need to look at the damaging effects of violent games and pornography on our youth. Children are raised with more violent and less loving examples around them.
I believe this. In addition to gun control, we also need to look at the damaging effects of violent games and pornography on our youth. Children are raised with more violent and less loving examples around them.
2
Another negative aspect of our modern world is the lack of time for our children!!
Most parents are forced to work long hours, including at weekends and with that the WWW will become the family of our kids etc. Full of good things but also lots of violence!
Most parents are forced to work long hours, including at weekends and with that the WWW will become the family of our kids etc. Full of good things but also lots of violence!
Nowadays I am even scared to listen to the radio with my kids in the car due to all those songs that glorify drug use, involve curse words and make references to sex. I have no memory of such inappropriate lyrics, tv shows, etc. from my childhood. Don't people have shame anymore?
1
What part of 'dual German-Iranian citizen' did they miss?
2
Did I miss something??..is that supposed to mean something????
2
I find the scapegoating of violence on video games troubling. What evidence does anybody have that video games played a role in his ascension to mass murderer? The only evidence seems to be that he played them. If his participation in an activity can be linked to his violence then why do we not blame news media. We can be assured he watched TV news and read news articles about mass shootings. Since those outlets described the exact acts he was to carry out isn't it more logical to blame them?
Please do not take my statements as evidence that I blame news outlets. Rather I am trying to point out the ludicrousness of careless blaming without proof.
Please do not take my statements as evidence that I blame news outlets. Rather I am trying to point out the ludicrousness of careless blaming without proof.
What is the nature of his family?
What was his cultural background?
Who shaped his mind?
What was his cultural background?
Who shaped his mind?
2
Why you pushing so hard to make this more sensational and fitting someone´s agenda?
Being bullied and mentally sick is not just an exclusive characteristic of young white christian men!!
Being bullied and mentally sick is not just an exclusive characteristic of young white christian men!!
1
Amazing that an 18 year old can buy a Glock and hundreds of rounds of ammo in a strict gun control country, kill 8 people, kill himself and it's all because he was bullied.
Not buying it.
Not buying it.
3
Try to spin and twist it as much as you want, facts are facts and sorry if you are disappointed!
You folks in Midwest have lots of mass shootings, crazy kids, ppl fired from their jobs and taking revenge, white police killing blacks and black folks killing police etc. Non of it related to terrorism and yes, other countries have similar issue, mentally sick kids and shootings are not just a US problem.
You folks in Midwest have lots of mass shootings, crazy kids, ppl fired from their jobs and taking revenge, white police killing blacks and black folks killing police etc. Non of it related to terrorism and yes, other countries have similar issue, mentally sick kids and shootings are not just a US problem.
3
Do you also not buy Columbine or Sandy Hook? Had this shooting happened in an actual school would it be more believable ?
2
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/science/2011/10/daniel_kahneman_s_thi...
The Effect Effect
Daniel Kahneman and the language of popular psychology.
"(Nobel-winner) Daniel Kahneman, who describes the Zajonc experiment in Thinking, Fast and Slow, a compendium of his thought and work. Faced with two false statements, side-by-side, he explains, readers are more likely to believe the one that's typed out in boldface. More advice: "Do not use complex language where simpler language will do," and "in addition to making your message simple, try to make it memorable." These factors combine to produce a feeling of "cognitive ease" that lulls our vigilant, more rational selves into a stupor. It's an old story, and one that's been told many times before. It even has a name: Psychologists call it the illusion of truth."
Violent video games combining "cognitive ease" with violence repeatedly can have significantly negative effect on (especially young) people. That's also how advertisements work on us all on daily basis.
The Effect Effect
Daniel Kahneman and the language of popular psychology.
"(Nobel-winner) Daniel Kahneman, who describes the Zajonc experiment in Thinking, Fast and Slow, a compendium of his thought and work. Faced with two false statements, side-by-side, he explains, readers are more likely to believe the one that's typed out in boldface. More advice: "Do not use complex language where simpler language will do," and "in addition to making your message simple, try to make it memorable." These factors combine to produce a feeling of "cognitive ease" that lulls our vigilant, more rational selves into a stupor. It's an old story, and one that's been told many times before. It even has a name: Psychologists call it the illusion of truth."
Violent video games combining "cognitive ease" with violence repeatedly can have significantly negative effect on (especially young) people. That's also how advertisements work on us all on daily basis.
1
So when is a mass murderer not a terrorist? Is it only when they're Muslim? Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist. The guy in the theater in CO was a terrorist. etc,etc, etc.
5
Mass murder is not terrorism. The designation of terrorism is reserved for violence for political reasons. That is why Timothy McVeigh, who killed a response to the incidents in Waco, TX, is a terrorist but James Holmes, who killed for who knows what reason, is not.
2
And who decides what/which "political reasons" result in terrorism? The Charleston killer-terrorist was not called that by the US media.
2
I would think, by definition, terrorism would be defined as something used to cause terror.
1
Crazy what some people are saying here. Why all the conspiracy theories and blaming muslims? Let's stick to the facts.
No, no connection to muslim fundamentalist. To people who know nothing about islam: the man was shiite, ISIL are sunnis. Sunnis and shiites are arch enemies, if in doubt, google it.
He bought that gun in the darknet (internet), supply chain of the bullets still unknown.
He didn't shout 'Allahu akbar.' Someone said that he thought he's heard that. Some other people claimed to witness another shooting in the city center - and there was nothing. In these extreme situations your mind tricks you, that's why every statement a witness makes needs to be confirmed. And no one there could confirm that statement. On a video you can hear him say 'I am German, I am born here.' Fact.
I am German, not living far away from the crime scene. I want share my deepest sympathies with those affected by this horrible event. And later on I want to understand what we can do to avoid such events in the future.
No, no connection to muslim fundamentalist. To people who know nothing about islam: the man was shiite, ISIL are sunnis. Sunnis and shiites are arch enemies, if in doubt, google it.
He bought that gun in the darknet (internet), supply chain of the bullets still unknown.
He didn't shout 'Allahu akbar.' Someone said that he thought he's heard that. Some other people claimed to witness another shooting in the city center - and there was nothing. In these extreme situations your mind tricks you, that's why every statement a witness makes needs to be confirmed. And no one there could confirm that statement. On a video you can hear him say 'I am German, I am born here.' Fact.
I am German, not living far away from the crime scene. I want share my deepest sympathies with those affected by this horrible event. And later on I want to understand what we can do to avoid such events in the future.
10
There were "terror ties" - it's just that they weren;t of the Islamist sort. It was with Anders Brievek and the extreme right. It's popular today to say that deranged violent Muslims were inspired by ISIS. This deranged kid was, apparently, similarly inspired by Brievek. It shows that the far (extreme) right are just as capable of inspiration and the radical Islamists.
We are dealing with psychopathologies - not ideologies....
We are dealing with psychopathologies - not ideologies....
7
"...how Mr. Sonboly had gotten a handgun and so much ammunition, despite Germany’s strict gun laws." "The teenager did not have a license to own a gun."
In a country like Germany which would be the envy of those favoring strict gun control laws a "troubled" teenager obtained a gun and used it with devastating results. The US has over 22,000 "gun laws" regulating who can own, purchase or carry firearms. Maybe we in the US will eventually come to realize that more and more laws against the "gun" will not stop the violence.
We need to find the root causes that leads a person to chose and then use a gun, a knife, a truck, a bomb to express their hatred against their fellow man, and then pass laws against those causes!
In a country like Germany which would be the envy of those favoring strict gun control laws a "troubled" teenager obtained a gun and used it with devastating results. The US has over 22,000 "gun laws" regulating who can own, purchase or carry firearms. Maybe we in the US will eventually come to realize that more and more laws against the "gun" will not stop the violence.
We need to find the root causes that leads a person to chose and then use a gun, a knife, a truck, a bomb to express their hatred against their fellow man, and then pass laws against those causes!
1
Handing a gun to every man, woman, girl and boy WILL result in more violence than not doing so.
Germany 2013: less than 1,000 gun deaths. USA: more than 33,000.
And that is not counting the injured and maimed. Enjoy your fun gun insanity.
Germany 2013: less than 1,000 gun deaths. USA: more than 33,000.
And that is not counting the injured and maimed. Enjoy your fun gun insanity.
3
None of your murder weapons compare to the easy acquisition, concealment and use of a semiautomatic handgun in a crowded situation.
1
hcm - "Enjoy your fun gun insanity."
Up until your unnecessary ad hominem remark you actually made some sense. Perhaps you can become a spokes person for the anti-gun fringe and attempt to insult your way to total confiscation.
Up until your unnecessary ad hominem remark you actually made some sense. Perhaps you can become a spokes person for the anti-gun fringe and attempt to insult your way to total confiscation.
its a horrific accident. those who lost their innocent lives and their loved ones are the one suffering the most. Yet, I cant deny the fact that i feel as sorry to the kid who committed this horrible shooting. He is obviously a victim of neglect and bullying which led him to end his life and others without any mercy. Its a call to all caretakers, teachers, parents and whole society to work on the mental wellness of the kids and to look and seek help when they cant provide it to the person in need.
3
Serious mental illness are likely a root cause of many of these tragic events.
Let's do much, much more scientific research into these human diseases of the brain.
Someday when these chronic infectious illnesses have been eradicated, we will regret that we didn't do this kind of research sooner.
2
Thank you June. You got it right. Even our traditional Freudian theories have its limitations and its bias...which is why in the Western world we have made the cold inexpressive inarticulate withdrawn or aloof White male the norm, and treat smart, feeling-centered, expressive, articulate, creative, spontaneous and assertive (as well as ambitious) women as an anomaly. Freud, if you ask, was an upper class anally retentive European White male whose world view was in many ways perverted. I only give him credit for emphasizing "observation, listening and dissecting information from clients" as an important analytical method.
We need more women of color, immigrant women and minority women to become researchers and counselors. My wife is excellent...but who is supporting her and her ideas when all the funds are taken by male idiots, and their female assistants, in universities who are studying many of this stuff wrongly. There are excellent people in some universities, others are just playing politics.
I agree, we need a different approach, even a new paradigm, to understanding and studying modern psychology, neurology and neuroplasticity. As well as parenting around the world. How much do most countries spend on mental health and mental health research? Many countries close to nothing! Zilch, Zero, Cipher, Null, Muttai or Not Much
We need more women of color, immigrant women and minority women to become researchers and counselors. My wife is excellent...but who is supporting her and her ideas when all the funds are taken by male idiots, and their female assistants, in universities who are studying many of this stuff wrongly. There are excellent people in some universities, others are just playing politics.
I agree, we need a different approach, even a new paradigm, to understanding and studying modern psychology, neurology and neuroplasticity. As well as parenting around the world. How much do most countries spend on mental health and mental health research? Many countries close to nothing! Zilch, Zero, Cipher, Null, Muttai or Not Much
It is unequivocally regrettable that this mentally sick kid got hold of a gun. How? It is a question that the German police must investigate and analyze. That the kid was of Iranian origin is insignificant, I am sure his parents are just as troubled as all the rest of us about this tragedy: they have lost their son and so many other families have been destroyed.
I will however say that this is an AMERICAN export. It is something that is being learned by others by watching all this violence out of USA. Mental illness has existed from eons but this going out and killing others in this fashion is new and requires CONTROL. It does not need more studies, we know the problem.
I will however say that this is an AMERICAN export. It is something that is being learned by others by watching all this violence out of USA. Mental illness has existed from eons but this going out and killing others in this fashion is new and requires CONTROL. It does not need more studies, we know the problem.
2
I disagree! That he was of Iranian descent is NOT insignificant if you want to understand his motivation. He made that clear when he shouted out in desperation 'I am German' after having been labeled with an anti-Turkish slur, because of his appearance (There are a lot more Turks than Iranians in Germany so anyone looking Middle Eastern will be thrown into the same pot). There were many factors converging and culminating in this rampage, mental illness only being one part of them. Obviously, you have to be mentally ill to kill indiscriminately and then shoot yourself, that's hardly worth restating.
3
Some people demand that immigrants and their children assimilate. This kid appears to have gone above and beyond assimilation: He's just your average, everyday mentally disturbed mass shooter.
3
No offense. But you have over-simplified the situation to the point of incredulity.
1
A tragic incident of this sort inexorably elicits digressions on gun control and comments involving international comparisons of crime involving guns. This thread is no exception. Some commenters suggest a tight correlation between strict gun laws in Germany and much lower (than in the US) homicide rate. I wish to address this digression.
I would urge self-restraint when making such comparisons. Violent crime is not uniformly distributed throughout the society. Writing for Bloomberg View at the Huffington Post (7-30-2013), Francis Wilkinson says: [in the US] “In 2010, the rate of firearm homicide for blacks was 14.6 per 100,000 compared with 4 for Hispanics, 1.9 for whites and 1.0 for Asians and Pacific Islanders.”
In short, we have different demographics and dramatically different homicide rates associated therewith.
Interestingly, the homicide rate by whites in the US is still somewhat higher than it is in most of Western Europe (and more than in Germany), but it is only slightly higher than the homicide rate in gun-free Belgium (1.8 per 100,000).
The point being, depending on the population, widespread gun ownership does not inexorably result in dramatically higher homicide rate.
I would urge self-restraint when making such comparisons. Violent crime is not uniformly distributed throughout the society. Writing for Bloomberg View at the Huffington Post (7-30-2013), Francis Wilkinson says: [in the US] “In 2010, the rate of firearm homicide for blacks was 14.6 per 100,000 compared with 4 for Hispanics, 1.9 for whites and 1.0 for Asians and Pacific Islanders.”
In short, we have different demographics and dramatically different homicide rates associated therewith.
Interestingly, the homicide rate by whites in the US is still somewhat higher than it is in most of Western Europe (and more than in Germany), but it is only slightly higher than the homicide rate in gun-free Belgium (1.8 per 100,000).
The point being, depending on the population, widespread gun ownership does not inexorably result in dramatically higher homicide rate.
2
Gun deaths US: more than 30,000 guy deaths Germany: less than 1,000.
1
This attack had been described basically as a lone wolf Iranian-German citizen, with no connection to terrorist groups, who was bullied in school and who basically sought revenge against his bullies and people in general who were at the wrong place at the wrong time.
There is also another angle, it could be classified as intra-Muslim sectarian violence, first the bulling by the Turk and Arab presumably Sunni students against this Iranian-German presumably Shia student, and secondly his revenge attack mainly against this Sunni cohort.
The more right leaning news outlets have reported that sectarian fights have definitely broken out at the refugee centers, so sectarian violence is nothing new to Europe.
When western nations allow mass migration, the problems of the ME and intra-Muslim conflicts are obviously imported also. The leaders of the western nations have been blind to this and have not stopped to consider the negative impact to the once peaceful western societies.
There is also another angle, it could be classified as intra-Muslim sectarian violence, first the bulling by the Turk and Arab presumably Sunni students against this Iranian-German presumably Shia student, and secondly his revenge attack mainly against this Sunni cohort.
The more right leaning news outlets have reported that sectarian fights have definitely broken out at the refugee centers, so sectarian violence is nothing new to Europe.
When western nations allow mass migration, the problems of the ME and intra-Muslim conflicts are obviously imported also. The leaders of the western nations have been blind to this and have not stopped to consider the negative impact to the once peaceful western societies.
2
How about the consequences of West colonizing African communities (for example, France and Morocco) and now suffering terrorist attacks out of their hands? Were they not peaceful at one time in their history? I really wonder why no Christian who knows European history ever questions what British, French, Spanish etc. once did in Africa and to some of the tribesmen that lived there in relation to terrorist attacks that are happening now.
1
If I am following this correctly, Sunni Muslims in Germany were bullying this Shiite Muslim. At this point, there is no indication that ISIS was involved. What this may show is the difficulty that people have in checking their views at the door when they are in a new country. The bullies appeared to have brought their religious prejudices with them, and many innocents got in the way of this Middle Eastern conflict. Not very comforting.
2
Not sure where you got this info from!
He did not kill shia or suny etc. he just wanted t kill people as most other troubled bullied kids in the US done before and still doing!!
Mental illness is not exclusively a US problem
He did not kill shia or suny etc. he just wanted t kill people as most other troubled bullied kids in the US done before and still doing!!
Mental illness is not exclusively a US problem
2
If we begin with the common sense assumption that only someone with psychological issues would target civilians for harm under any circumstances, then it would seem that one way to view any ideology is the extent to epwhich it either motivated the individual or provided apparent sanction to his violent actions. In other words, the danger of ideology is commensurate with the extent to which it normalizes as deviant world view. That normalization is increasingly difficult to sustain where, in the case of religion, the accepted and respected exegetical views of the scriptures trend uniformly against extreme interpretations. In the case of political ideologies, that interpretive position is assumed by political leaders. If this analysis is correct, it needs to be applied consistently.
While there will always be extremists among us, let them remain in the, aptly named, lunatic fringe where they content themselves for the most part with spinning dark conspiracy theories and commiserate among themselves but rarely act out. That may be the best we can hope for.
While there will always be extremists among us, let them remain in the, aptly named, lunatic fringe where they content themselves for the most part with spinning dark conspiracy theories and commiserate among themselves but rarely act out. That may be the best we can hope for.
1
Guns. The latest, greatest, Scourge of Humankind. America , the global role model for cultural and social violence, destruction, and death leads the way with their obsession to own and use them to kill each other - an average of 32 people per day - and seem to be proud of it and yet they claim to be a civilized nation. If horse manure could cure cancer...maybe.
The adolescent brain seems to amplify all emotions. Adding a gun to that formula is a clear recipe for disaster.
I too want to thank the people of Munich for their generosity and rational response to this crisis which made me and my friends feel relatively safe despite not knowing exactly what was happening around us.
I too want to thank the people of Munich for their generosity and rational response to this crisis which made me and my friends feel relatively safe despite not knowing exactly what was happening around us.
4
If the cause of this gunman's act was bullying, I don't understand why he had to shoot complete strangers? When I was bullied as a 13 year old, I went after my tormenter and only him. I did not however try and shoot him.
I can understand the frustration and rage that makes a kid want to lash out if he's being beaten on a regular basis and no one is there to help him, but how does shooting a bunch of strangers alleviate his helplessness?
What is sad is that no one probably helped him or knew of his frustration.
I can understand the frustration and rage that makes a kid want to lash out if he's being beaten on a regular basis and no one is there to help him, but how does shooting a bunch of strangers alleviate his helplessness?
What is sad is that no one probably helped him or knew of his frustration.
It always comes down to how easily killers access weapons--whether a single handgun, assault rifles or bomb-making materials. Even the Nice truck driver who used his truck as a weapon was fortified with weaponry inside his cab. When will the world understand that for every weapon made, there will be an equal and opposite reaction--death? The people who make money manufacturing weapons are simply at odds with humanity if not the entire human race. Things will only get worse until governments have the courage to shut down and / or severely curtail the manufacture of weapons whose sole purpose is to kill people. It would be nice if they would also shut down the weapons meant to kill trophy game, too.
It's a good thing that Germany has really tough gun laws that absolutely prevent such gun massacres.
Oh wait, this happened in Germany, didn't it?
Oh wait, this happened in Germany, didn't it?
3
Yes it did... But Germany still has tough gun laws that would put this country to shame.
2
And did those tough gun laws stop this gunman?
Nope,.... Case closed.
You did not get the desired effect, but you did get window dressing intervention, if that's what you're into.
Nope,.... Case closed.
You did not get the desired effect, but you did get window dressing intervention, if that's what you're into.
Not having any ties to specific terrorist groups simply means that he was a lone wolf, for whatever demented reasons, and though he can't be connected or identified with radical Islamic Jihadists, opting to act on his own accord....he's still a terrorist.
1
All the terrorists/criminals cases reported reveal them to be troubled/in depression. Does it mean society would have to bear their outbursts? Moreover, if really troubled do they have a history of having troubled their families and if yes did the families report their violent acts to police?
It has also become a norm to differentiate lone wolf acts from the pack acts and how does a lone wolf act become less violent/dangerous for their victims/society.
It has also become a norm to differentiate lone wolf acts from the pack acts and how does a lone wolf act become less violent/dangerous for their victims/society.
1
As someone who's lived on the African, American and European continents extensively in the last 30 years, I know firsthand that the issues of race and religious beliefs can be a lot more nuanced and complex than portrayed in articles that discuss acts of terror. Not all acts of terror are committed by terrorists. One thing that strikes me in every single article about terror in Europe is how there seems to be a desire to link the act with the actors nationality/ethnicity. It is a known fact that many people are being radicalised but I find it very uncomfortable when someone who spent all of their formative years in a particular country is suddenly no longer just German/British/French etc. There seems to be the belief that acts of terror cannot be committed by someone who is 100% German/French etc. Their bad behaviour is somehow motivated by their dual citizenship or their parents being immigrants. That view is a dangerous one and we all know that the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
3
Very concise assessment, but seeing as you are obviously not a teeneager, or in that immediate age-range, you have left out very important pieces of the equation, namely "Peer-Pressure"... and thanks to the digital age and social media platforms -- Bullying.
1
Germany as much of western Europe is multicultural and is increasingly becoming more so. As everyone knows, the non-German population in Germany alone increased by approx 1 -2 million in 2015, mostly young Muslim men. A Muslim on mostly Muslim attack in a country with an exponentially growing Muslim population should not come as a great shock. When migrants come to the west, they obviously bring their culture with them, and their cultures are more accustomed to violence than post-war Germany historically has been. International crime statistics will bear this out. But this is quickly changing with the ever increasing rate of terrorism perpetrated in the west. If the current trend continues / increases, Europe will not be considered to be anymore safe, or sufficiently safer, than the countries from where the migrants are fleeing, and thus the asylum claims of the migrants soon will not have much merit, if they had merits to begin with, since there was a great deal of abuse of the system and many migrants were economic and not political migrants.
1
One phrase that stuck me was "I grew up here in a Hartz IV area". Area? Is this some sequestration district, the German equivalent of So. Africa's Cape Flats? Hartz IV refers to government regulations for handling welfare/unemployment benefits. And by most accounts Hartz IV is not a favorite (http://www.dw.com/en/the-much-hated-hartz-iv/a-5221558). One of its provisions cuts allowance amounts to children of the unemployed.
Isn't it odd that Hartz IV was topmost in the lingo of a teenager? So....it makes me turn to the parents. How many heated dinnertime conversations were heard reviling the consequences of the new regulations for this family. Did parental attitudes have any part in stoking the flames of hatred it in him? Perhaps we've been rash to blame the school chums' bullying. Perhaps when we encounter now commonplace rampage tales we should turn the spotlight on the parents who have spawned these psychos. Did they have no role in what he became?
Isn't it odd that Hartz IV was topmost in the lingo of a teenager? So....it makes me turn to the parents. How many heated dinnertime conversations were heard reviling the consequences of the new regulations for this family. Did parental attitudes have any part in stoking the flames of hatred it in him? Perhaps we've been rash to blame the school chums' bullying. Perhaps when we encounter now commonplace rampage tales we should turn the spotlight on the parents who have spawned these psychos. Did they have no role in what he became?
3
Can someone please tell me why these killers are almost always young men? What is it about their biology that makes it almost always a young man who committed a horrific violent act?
1
Not wanting to generalize, but Testosterone more than likely plays a role in this characteristic behaviour.
Yes, and look at many of the comments. They start arguing and shooting each other verbally on the internet over this shooting issue? Guys! Boys! Boy-Men! More studies needed on male neurology, psychology and how we are bringing-up our boys and men in the modern world. The world men create is not helping our boys. They are destroying each other, their psyche and themselves.
Lyrics from Ghosttown
Maybe it was all too much
Too much for a man to take
Everything's bound to break
Sooner or later, sooner or later
Lyrics from Ghosttown
Maybe it was all too much
Too much for a man to take
Everything's bound to break
Sooner or later, sooner or later
Having lived here for only the last few months, it is terribly sad to have experienced this and be aware of the grief everyone in Munich is suffering. That said, the Police here were terrific on Friday night and though we were all confined to our homes, it gave me hope that they would resolve it while limiting more bloodshed. I live on the other side of town and for an hour after the city shut down sirens of ambulances could be heard mobilising and getting to the scene from here. I feel sorrow for the victims and their families, for the mental health victim who did not find a non-violent way to express his rage, his family, all the communities affected. I also feel for the police who had to witness the shooter's final moments. Munich continues to be an open and integrating community, I hope it can move beyond this and find ways to keep itself the fantastic city we know it to be.
1
Not Mark..
Such a sweet writing Lin..
Keep up your sensitivity
Dr. MS (Proud Bold Beautiful Brainy Woman)
Such a sweet writing Lin..
Keep up your sensitivity
Dr. MS (Proud Bold Beautiful Brainy Woman)
"Munich Killer Was Troubled, but had no terrorists ties"....What a ridiculous statement. The act alone, an act of terrorism, connects this killer with all terrorists and all other acts of terrorism.
So a non white christian kid can´t have mental issues, can´t have been bullied at school and is always a terrorist???
All school shootings in the US were the exact same profile except the fact that their parents were not Muslims!!
All school shootings in the US were the exact same profile except the fact that their parents were not Muslims!!
2
I used Google to learn that a Glock revolver of the type used in the attack costs about $499 to legally buy in US. Buying this same gun illegally would cost a lot more -- the fact the serial number was filed off would make this gun even more valuable to criminals. Where did Ali Sonboly get the money to buy the gun and the bullets? According to media reports, Ali Sonboly was unemployed and living at home. The "crazy loner" theory is really at variance with the facts here. It is highly improbable he got this gun by himself. How did he get the gun? Who helped him?
1
the last thing Merkel Germany needs right now is another reminder of Cologne and the 2,000 (or 200) men attacking women, of the sexual attacks at numerous summer concert festivals all over Europe, in Swimbads, nor do they want to think of Nice, or Belgium, or or Istanbul ... the guy could have come out and said he was the son of Al Baghdadi and they would still say well I don't know I don't think he was part of Isis do you??
Two points: when it came time to start shooting he was shouting Allahu Akbar and depending on the ideology to put him through.
Secondly, like others he had a criminal background of petty crimes such as burglary.
He fits the mold perfectly, just not as fanatically. Can that possibly make any significant difference? No. because all of these mass murders are obsessed with killing, and this one just happen to have the book about other Mass murderers around.
Would he have done that killing without Isis shouting in his ear? Merkel can't know that, the German government can't know that. But people getting shot at heard the familiar shout of Allaha Akbar! I'm going with the victims statements. the government in Germany has every incentive to minimize and distort. The German population is so angry at what they see as incompetence, and a disaster of historic proportions, they have a hostile nation within a nation... and no way to get back to what their dream was : a fully integrated working culture. Fundamentalist Islam is not assimilation. It's submission.
Two points: when it came time to start shooting he was shouting Allahu Akbar and depending on the ideology to put him through.
Secondly, like others he had a criminal background of petty crimes such as burglary.
He fits the mold perfectly, just not as fanatically. Can that possibly make any significant difference? No. because all of these mass murders are obsessed with killing, and this one just happen to have the book about other Mass murderers around.
Would he have done that killing without Isis shouting in his ear? Merkel can't know that, the German government can't know that. But people getting shot at heard the familiar shout of Allaha Akbar! I'm going with the victims statements. the government in Germany has every incentive to minimize and distort. The German population is so angry at what they see as incompetence, and a disaster of historic proportions, they have a hostile nation within a nation... and no way to get back to what their dream was : a fully integrated working culture. Fundamentalist Islam is not assimilation. It's submission.
1
What a fantastical story you've concocted!
Here to burst your bubble:
1. He was of Iranian origin so more than likely Shia, if anything, but most certainly not affiliated with a Sunni group
2. He didn't shout "Allaha...", he shouted "I am German..."
3. Judging from his reading interests, if you're seeking a "culture" to point the finger at, turn that finger back 180 degrees to the US (and maybe a bit at Norway) and our culture of disaffected young men going on shooting rampages.
It's clear you have the time and energy to think about this stuff. Why don't you use it productively?
Here to burst your bubble:
1. He was of Iranian origin so more than likely Shia, if anything, but most certainly not affiliated with a Sunni group
2. He didn't shout "Allaha...", he shouted "I am German..."
3. Judging from his reading interests, if you're seeking a "culture" to point the finger at, turn that finger back 180 degrees to the US (and maybe a bit at Norway) and our culture of disaffected young men going on shooting rampages.
It's clear you have the time and energy to think about this stuff. Why don't you use it productively?
So many of the points you make are just so wrong that it might best serve you to get some real facts -- And if you don't speak the language, German News Deutsche Welle has an English service:
www.dw.com/en/top-stories
www.dw.com/en/top-stories
1
By definition a "Lone Wolf" has no ties. Actions speak to influence. The results support a radical ideology.
1
We foresaw this back in the 90s. We called them superkillers. Now they're real. It's what they been raised on.
How can they be so sure that he was not radicalized ? The German media is as easily manipulated by their government as ours is. We the people hunger for just news without all the spin that is evident to any thinking person. Truth should be unfiltered! Let the reader draw the conclusions. Free press- ha! Bought and paid for press is more accurate. By the way-even though I am for tough gun control- it didnt work here , did it?
1
Lol, the German media??? You better start learn some German and understand and learn on why Germany is such a successful country with very smart people!!
Mental illness, school bulling is not exclusively reserved for white christian kids!!
He spent 2 full months in hospital for mental issues!
Accept the facts and move on even it does not fit your agenda!
Mental illness, school bulling is not exclusively reserved for white christian kids!!
He spent 2 full months in hospital for mental issues!
Accept the facts and move on even it does not fit your agenda!
3
After wall-to-wall coverage, cable media dropped this story like the proverbial hot potato shortly after it became doubtful the killer was a "radical Islamic terrorist." Even the possibility of a right wing extremist connection was not enough to keep the story alive. It was gone, gone, gone, long before he became just a nut with a gun. It's an obscenity: the dead don't matter unless they are killed in a way that excites us politically.
2
Ali Sonboly lived with "his mother, father and brother" before he embarked on this shooting rampage. How was it possible that they didn't notice that he had acquired "a handgun and so much ammunition" given the strict gun laws? Even if he had his own room, all the stuff that the police had found there, couldn't have escaped their attention.
Indeed the crime in Munich is a social issue - neglected, disaffected youths who seek solace online, playing violent video games etc. - but it is also interchangeable with terrorist attacks inspired by Islamist extremism.
Indeed the crime in Munich is a social issue - neglected, disaffected youths who seek solace online, playing violent video games etc. - but it is also interchangeable with terrorist attacks inspired by Islamist extremism.
10
You deliberately ignore one fact, he was a German of Iranian origin. The biggest enemy of ISIS is Iran. Not USA or EU.
2
If the UK Telegraph and Daily Mail articles are right his victims were primarily Turkish (The Mail identifies one as Greek but the name--Huseyin Dayicik--sounds more Turkish) and Kosovan, and he "complained that he had been bullied by 'Turkish and Arabic' classmates." If you want to see Muslim extremism in this attack I guess you're going to do it. But I think who the victims are says a lot--mostly other kids.
I'm still holding off on final judgment until we know more. I thought the best comment to the article was the one calling people out on their need to create a narrative that fit their beliefs. Maybe everyone needs to just chill out a bit...
I'm still holding off on final judgment until we know more. I thought the best comment to the article was the one calling people out on their need to create a narrative that fit their beliefs. Maybe everyone needs to just chill out a bit...
27
This kid was mentally troubled as most of the other kids in the US which caused killing of innocent people, mostly young at school age.
This part of Munich is dominantly inhabited by folks from Turkey, Afghanistan, Balkan ppl etc.
I watched between CNN for about 3 hours on the attack day and I can tell you that the anchor was extremely disappointed when the news came out that the kid was mentally troubled! Did not fit the agenda, was very sad to watch it!!
A normal killing does not fit the political agenda of today´s world and does not provide the same "excitement" and "sensation" what media is looking for.
This part of Munich is dominantly inhabited by folks from Turkey, Afghanistan, Balkan ppl etc.
I watched between CNN for about 3 hours on the attack day and I can tell you that the anchor was extremely disappointed when the news came out that the kid was mentally troubled! Did not fit the agenda, was very sad to watch it!!
A normal killing does not fit the political agenda of today´s world and does not provide the same "excitement" and "sensation" what media is looking for.
1
"No Terrorist Ties"--that gives a citizen a real sense of relief, unless of course you're one of those unfortunates wounded or killed.
What Europeans are discovering in a very violent and real way is that feeling safe and being safe are two different things. Americans have known this since at least the beginning of the 17th century.
Can their government protect them, despite billions to national defense, as in the U.S., though trillions more, without stomping on their rights as free citizens? Doubtful. F-35s not too useful in guarding malls, night clubs, and promenades.
So the real issue is can the governments survive when their citizens are being arbitrarily cut down on trains, on streets, in night clubs, and fast-food restaurants, even given all the laws and controls on guns, rockets, and pressure cookers ... and soon knives, axes, and trucks?
The problem is not in the stars but in the cultural ethos. Best of luck to all.
What Europeans are discovering in a very violent and real way is that feeling safe and being safe are two different things. Americans have known this since at least the beginning of the 17th century.
Can their government protect them, despite billions to national defense, as in the U.S., though trillions more, without stomping on their rights as free citizens? Doubtful. F-35s not too useful in guarding malls, night clubs, and promenades.
So the real issue is can the governments survive when their citizens are being arbitrarily cut down on trains, on streets, in night clubs, and fast-food restaurants, even given all the laws and controls on guns, rockets, and pressure cookers ... and soon knives, axes, and trucks?
The problem is not in the stars but in the cultural ethos. Best of luck to all.
12
Or when will we blame those horrible shooting video "games"? That is also a common thread with these boys. Also, didn't a Muslim eye witness at the McDonalds say he yelled "Allah AKbar"? Cuz if so, and I heard this witness report this on tv, then we are putting our heads in the sand if we don't mention the religious connection.
1
"Had no terrorist ties" says the country that did it damnedest to cover up the Cologne attacks and came to this conclusion in less than 24 hours.
When you consider Merkel is criticized for letting in over a million refugees (according to Aljazeera), has seen Brexit happen, and thousands of Germans are protesting against the refugee glut in demonstrations all around Germany-perhaps leading Germans wanting to leave the EU, and Obama blurts out "But crime is really really down!" and then starts cracking very inappropriate jokes, the claims that this shooting is not terrorist related are very suspect at best.
When you consider Merkel is criticized for letting in over a million refugees (according to Aljazeera), has seen Brexit happen, and thousands of Germans are protesting against the refugee glut in demonstrations all around Germany-perhaps leading Germans wanting to leave the EU, and Obama blurts out "But crime is really really down!" and then starts cracking very inappropriate jokes, the claims that this shooting is not terrorist related are very suspect at best.
40
Well the shooting is at least not refugee related... The killer was born and raised in Germany.
1
@britta
Nicht unbedingt. The current refugee situation in Germany is still very much part of the picture, as it has had major effects on the social make-up of the society -- And more likely than not, all the bullying that this young man was exposed to is tied to it.
Nicht unbedingt. The current refugee situation in Germany is still very much part of the picture, as it has had major effects on the social make-up of the society -- And more likely than not, all the bullying that this young man was exposed to is tied to it.
1
How the German police shot at the killer, but then for 3 hours couldn't find him, even if they saw him running?
12
What would the Monday morning quarterback recommend?
1
Let's stop calling angry young men with guns terrorists in general. They are poorly socialized, testosterone fueled males with guns, just like this kid. When the media calls them otherwise, glamorizes them, it plays the video game of violence with them.
20
`No Terror Ties Seen for Munich Gunman Who Killed 9'
This is infuriating. `No Terror Ties'? Tell that to the nine dead.
Yes, we all know the difference between a `terrorist' act and a shooting by an unaffiliated individual. But there was as much `terror' on those street corners as there would have been if this savagery were committed by an ISIS loyalist. And this is where we might consider more precise language in the coverage of these events.
Yes, shootings of this nature - organized or spontaneous - produce `terror', moments of disbelief and unimaginable horror. But there is no reason to repeatedly refer to the perpetrators of these acts as `terrorists'.
Why? Because they are cowards. They are not soldiers, facing the enemy with some nobility on the battlefield. No, they kill men, women and children who are defenseless, who are unable to fight back. They are cowards.
This might sound foolish and your mocking is understandable, but we should begin calling the perpetrators of these acts `cowards', not terrorists. There is an undeniable romantic element to the word `terrorist', evidenced by the numbers of troubled souls who seek membership in such groups. But there is nothing romantic about being called a `coward'.
Perhaps a young man or woman might think twice about joining a group known to the world as cowards. Let's rebrand this sickening behavior for what it is.
This is infuriating. `No Terror Ties'? Tell that to the nine dead.
Yes, we all know the difference between a `terrorist' act and a shooting by an unaffiliated individual. But there was as much `terror' on those street corners as there would have been if this savagery were committed by an ISIS loyalist. And this is where we might consider more precise language in the coverage of these events.
Yes, shootings of this nature - organized or spontaneous - produce `terror', moments of disbelief and unimaginable horror. But there is no reason to repeatedly refer to the perpetrators of these acts as `terrorists'.
Why? Because they are cowards. They are not soldiers, facing the enemy with some nobility on the battlefield. No, they kill men, women and children who are defenseless, who are unable to fight back. They are cowards.
This might sound foolish and your mocking is understandable, but we should begin calling the perpetrators of these acts `cowards', not terrorists. There is an undeniable romantic element to the word `terrorist', evidenced by the numbers of troubled souls who seek membership in such groups. But there is nothing romantic about being called a `coward'.
Perhaps a young man or woman might think twice about joining a group known to the world as cowards. Let's rebrand this sickening behavior for what it is.
30
Did you call all the school and kindergarten shooting in the US an act of terrorisms? I don´t recall!
This guy was the same type of mentally troubled school kid and gone on a rampage killing innocent people in and around his age and all killed were migrants as well, 6 of them Muslims!!
If the killing does not fit today´s political agenda or does not give the same sensation to media, this is a different story.
This guy was the same type of mentally troubled school kid and gone on a rampage killing innocent people in and around his age and all killed were migrants as well, 6 of them Muslims!!
If the killing does not fit today´s political agenda or does not give the same sensation to media, this is a different story.
2
Do we really know the difference between a terrorist attack and a shooting, or murder by other means, by an unaffiliated individual? The ranting about "Radical Islamic Terrorists" suggests that we don't readily perceive that difference. Rather than clarifying our response, it makes it more confused.
ISIS seems to enjoy contributing to our confusion by taking credit for every violent act by disturbed people. That ought to be a warning that we need to be more careful with our labels.
ISIS seems to enjoy contributing to our confusion by taking credit for every violent act by disturbed people. That ought to be a warning that we need to be more careful with our labels.
9
Interesting ...a Muslim eye witness said the killer shouted Allah Akbar as he rained bullets and death.
41
Of course he said that. Every Muslim would under stress. It does not mean he has connections to terrorist groups, it just means he's Muslim.
9
If you go to any comment section on articles about the incident there are people like you repeatedly bringing up that single witness account. But it is not confirmed, and it has been suggested that it was said by someone fleeing rather than the gunman (some people do not seem to understand that the expression is not only used by terrorists). Given that it is now being reported that the shooter targeted youngsters of Turkish and Arab origin, it seems very unlikely that it was shouted by him.
In contrast to this uncertainty, a bunch of evidence has now been released that points to motives completely unrelated to religion including the shooter using a picture of Anders Breivik on his profile on an online messaging service.
In contrast to this uncertainty, a bunch of evidence has now been released that points to motives completely unrelated to religion including the shooter using a picture of Anders Breivik on his profile on an online messaging service.
1
You do understand how laughable that sounds right?
I probably missed that in the news - how a person who shot the cellphone video of the shooting at the entrance of the McDonald's knew to start filming it BEFORE the shooter opened fire?
7
According to a witness I saw on the news, the man was also shooting inside the McDonalds. I bet the bystander heard the shots or saw people running out.
A clever observation. however he was shooting in the McDonald's -- shooting kids in the face -- and maybe just maybe the cell phone video was responding to that noise from across the street?
Or it was all staged and so was the moon landing!
Or it was all staged and so was the moon landing!
Because the shooter had shot at and killed people in the Macdonald's before coming out onto the street. So the guy with the phone would have heard all the commotion coming from the restaurant beforehand.
Sounds like the kid was radically Americanized.
27
The whole sick philosophy behind Modern Education and Political Correctness created freedom of wrongdoing, such as bullying, with virtually no freedom for anybody but the Police, to contain wrongdoers. When education still was done the old way, not only parents kept their children under control. Any adult was supposed to be alert and eventually to act. Bullying always existed, but under traditional values, victims never were desperate enough to buy a gun and start shooting. I know, I was born in 1940.
12
An interesting observation. I turned down being a school teacher in a public school because I saw that the kids had no need to obey or to study or to learn, and they knew that no one could do anything about it. The atomization of society was a real loss for kids in general, when the only unit that mattered was the family unit. they lost the whole community of men and women who acted as helpers... I know, too, anton s. as I was born not too long after 1940 as well. Kids today miss out when they don't have at least some responsibility toward everyone in their community. It may have meant more busy bodies but it also meant there was more help for a troubled kid.
1
Parents lost their entire parental rights in the last 20 - 30s years, hence extremely difficult for parents to connect and stay connected to their own kids at a deeper level and with that being able to see early signs and hopefully correct them.
1
The professionalism of the Munich police and federal authorities is to be commended. I think it's a lot more about picking the right people for the job and training them properly. American police departments should take a look.
14
Millennials and Generation Z are our greatest social problem facing society today - they have not been raised properly - no morals, values, no understanding of community except for some online community that bears no warmth and is impersonal. Where are the parents? Where is the outrage against stupid violent video games and why isn't anyone holding these "gaming" companies accountable? They know it breeds violence. . .
If you don't have standards, then you have nothing against which to hold yourself accountable.
If you don't have standards, then you have nothing against which to hold yourself accountable.
18
Sorry, games don't breed violence. Mental illness (a specific kind), poverty, emotional distress, or even alcohol breed violence. Sadly we do not see any action taken against these. It makes too much sense I think.
1
A Commenter writes, "...the common denomination is that they're all Muslim shooters or terrorists in Europe..... I think unpalatable methods like Mr Donald Trump's are going to find rational ears....."
The Commenter in his or her own way inadvertently explains much of the support for Donald Trump: a tendency by many to fit "facts" into a preconceived narrative rather than to construct a narrative around actual facts: there is absolutely no reference in the article as to whether the perpetrator was Muslim, let alone any indication that Islam played the slightest role in his attack. One may add to that selective memory, which is necessary to make "facts" fit a narrative, as the massacre by Anders Breivik -- 79, mostly kids, killed -- makes clear.
The Commenter in his or her own way inadvertently explains much of the support for Donald Trump: a tendency by many to fit "facts" into a preconceived narrative rather than to construct a narrative around actual facts: there is absolutely no reference in the article as to whether the perpetrator was Muslim, let alone any indication that Islam played the slightest role in his attack. One may add to that selective memory, which is necessary to make "facts" fit a narrative, as the massacre by Anders Breivik -- 79, mostly kids, killed -- makes clear.
11
If you read a news source without an agenda, you'd know the kid was Iranian
21
@bingham
Sorry. The "kid" is NOT Iranian. He is German-Iranian -- born in Munich.
I read news sources in GERMAN.
Sorry. The "kid" is NOT Iranian. He is German-Iranian -- born in Munich.
I read news sources in GERMAN.
16
The article stated he was born in Germany of family that came from Iran. Is a kid born here of parents who immigrated from Canada, Canadian or American? What is a kid, such as Ted Cruz, born in Canada of one American parent?
Not everyone in Iran is Muslim, though clearly most are.
My point was not about the perp but about how we tend to view news, often such becoming more a Rorschach blot for our hopes, fears, and values than a reasoned analysis of what is actually there.
Not everyone in Iran is Muslim, though clearly most are.
My point was not about the perp but about how we tend to view news, often such becoming more a Rorschach blot for our hopes, fears, and values than a reasoned analysis of what is actually there.
1
GUNS are TERROR! Period!
11
Too easy! period! Skips all the underlying motives for violence. Just as shortsighted as saying trucks are terror in Nice.
9
Gee, last time I checked, trucks weren't manufactured as killing machines.
2
Germany's Columbine era of disaffected youth. Shows how ahead of anyone is the US.
7
Apparently this man was repeatedly bullied at more than one school. Perhaps that's what led to his feelings of alienation. Some kids react to sustained bullying by harming themselves or others, as this young man did. I am glad that the majority of American school systems have started to treat bullying as a serious issue. For most of our history, it was regarded as a rite of passage and tacitly acceptable means of social sorting.
62
And for of that history, there were no school shootings.
I guess the logical conclusion should be that awareness and action on bullying correlates to increasing school shootings?
I guess the logical conclusion should be that awareness and action on bullying correlates to increasing school shootings?
1
From CNN: "A witness who wanted to be identified only by her first name, Lauretta, told CNN her son was in the bathroom with a shooter at the restaurant.
"That's where he loaded his weapon," she said. "I hear like an alarm and boom, boom, boom ... and he's still killing the children. The children were sitting to eat. They can't run."
Lauretta said she heard the gunman say, "Allahu Akbar," or "God is great" in Arabic. "I know this because I'm Muslim. I hear this and I only cry."
Draw your own conclusions.
"That's where he loaded his weapon," she said. "I hear like an alarm and boom, boom, boom ... and he's still killing the children. The children were sitting to eat. They can't run."
Lauretta said she heard the gunman say, "Allahu Akbar," or "God is great" in Arabic. "I know this because I'm Muslim. I hear this and I only cry."
Draw your own conclusions.
36
In the first hours after the attack, more than one talking head on MSNBC pushed the narrative that the killer was a neo Nazi. Since that hasn't panned out, the left now blames the attack on schoolyard bullying. It seems the PC crowd will grasp at any straw (workplace violence, homophobia, you name it) to avoid blaming Muslims for acts of radical Islamic terrorism. "Allahu Akbar" indeed.
42
Witnesses also claimed there were three shooters, that they were using long guns, and that they had escaped into the subway system.
None of that was true either.
But you cling to a sole "witness" making an unsubstantiated claim as "proof"... despite other witnesses saying he was yelling awful things about foreigners, and the fact that he was raised in a secular household - i.e. not religious.
That's the height of desperation.
None of that was true either.
But you cling to a sole "witness" making an unsubstantiated claim as "proof"... despite other witnesses saying he was yelling awful things about foreigners, and the fact that he was raised in a secular household - i.e. not religious.
That's the height of desperation.
15
@nancy
Not exactly. It's not so much a problem with being "PC", a talking-head or what have you -- it's more a problem of not being able to understand the language, and obtaining real news closer to the source.
German Press first said it was someone running amok...then said there were three persons involved in a terrorist attack -- before finally reporting it was just one person who ran amok.
Not exactly. It's not so much a problem with being "PC", a talking-head or what have you -- it's more a problem of not being able to understand the language, and obtaining real news closer to the source.
German Press first said it was someone running amok...then said there were three persons involved in a terrorist attack -- before finally reporting it was just one person who ran amok.
2
Quite a sad story ,but the German felt compelled to take in 1.5 million immigrants. If just 3% are against Germany, they have about 45,000 that want to kill the Germans.Luckily it is not as easy to buy guns in Germany as it is in the United States.
19
Hmm... I don't think you understand that most of the people who came to Germany went to escape violence. To say that every immigrant wants to kill their Western host is completely barbaric and ill conceived. The rhetoric is even more evil than the actions of terrorists themselves. I hope you can understand that.
This guy was not an immigrant, he was born and raised in Germany. His parents were immigrants. His parents didn't kill anyone, they worked and lived in Germany for years. This kid was a deranged individual who is a victim of a failed corporatocracy that we live in today. Immigration is a result of the same corporatocracy, immigrants are flocking to the West because the West has exploited their countries of origin to the point the people of said countries are hopeless and aimless. Their only exit is "Go West, life is peaceful there". Remember that song?
I am waiting to hear how the shooter got his gun.
14
During Prohibition in the US back in the early part of the 20th Century how did people get alcohol?
The exact same way the deranged shooter in Germany got his gun
Whenever you have an item that is banned and there is demand for that item, then a black market will be created to fill the need.
Gun Control only disarms law abiding citizens.
The criminal/whackado/terrorist always shows up to the crime scene with a gun, regardless of what laws have been passed to prohibit them from obtaining one... or two... or three... or more...
The exact same way the deranged shooter in Germany got his gun
Whenever you have an item that is banned and there is demand for that item, then a black market will be created to fill the need.
Gun Control only disarms law abiding citizens.
The criminal/whackado/terrorist always shows up to the crime scene with a gun, regardless of what laws have been passed to prohibit them from obtaining one... or two... or three... or more...
11
Germany has strict gun laws while the US has lax gun laws.
Every year Germany has about 700 homicides of which about 30 are committed by a firearm. This represents a fraction of 1%.
Every year the US has about 12,000 homicides of which about 8,000 are committed with a firearm. This represents about 67%.
The US is about 4 times larger that Germany.
If you multiply Germany's figures by 4 the figures will be equivalent.
Germany has 2800 homicides vs the US with 12,000 or 429% higher.
Germany has 120 homicides with a firearm vs the US 8,000 or an extremely tiny fraction.
What does this tell us?
Every year Germany has about 700 homicides of which about 30 are committed by a firearm. This represents a fraction of 1%.
Every year the US has about 12,000 homicides of which about 8,000 are committed with a firearm. This represents about 67%.
The US is about 4 times larger that Germany.
If you multiply Germany's figures by 4 the figures will be equivalent.
Germany has 2800 homicides vs the US with 12,000 or 429% higher.
Germany has 120 homicides with a firearm vs the US 8,000 or an extremely tiny fraction.
What does this tell us?
19
It seems to tell me that flooding our nation with guns doesn't improve our statistical safety over Germany's by much, if at all.
8
Sorry for my bad English. I am living in Germany. To be honest I don't think that the availability of guns is the problem. As a hunter I got some at home and also know other people owning guns. There are other countries e.g. Switzerland with also big part of armed inhabitants and a lot less violence. To me it looks more as if it would be a social problem.
It is really hard to get a legal gun in Germany. You also have to give up some of your basic rights. E.g. anytime some governmental auditors could come to my home and check whether the guns are all where they should be (in a safe, separated from amo). If I won't let them in, I would loose my license.
I am not allowed to take it with me except to my hunting place or a shooting range.
A lot of background checks will take place before you will get the license. Documents will be exchanged between governmental offices. I am not allowed to see what is written in these documents.
There are more or less two ways to apply for a license.
As sportsshooter you have to be in a club for at least one year and then take an exam.
As hunter you usually have to participate in a one year training and then do an even bigger exam.
But this is just for getting legal guns.
It seems to be no big problem to buy an illegal one from former Jugoslawia or Albania.
And here he problem starts. Not with the registered legal ones.
It is really hard to get a legal gun in Germany. You also have to give up some of your basic rights. E.g. anytime some governmental auditors could come to my home and check whether the guns are all where they should be (in a safe, separated from amo). If I won't let them in, I would loose my license.
I am not allowed to take it with me except to my hunting place or a shooting range.
A lot of background checks will take place before you will get the license. Documents will be exchanged between governmental offices. I am not allowed to see what is written in these documents.
There are more or less two ways to apply for a license.
As sportsshooter you have to be in a club for at least one year and then take an exam.
As hunter you usually have to participate in a one year training and then do an even bigger exam.
But this is just for getting legal guns.
It seems to be no big problem to buy an illegal one from former Jugoslawia or Albania.
And here he problem starts. Not with the registered legal ones.
Of the 8,000 cited homicides in the U.S. 85% of them are drug related, what does that tell us?
1
These killings are like the killings of black men by the police, in so far as those who wish to see, or are predisposed to see, certain things, see them. The Michael Brown case, for example, was very different from many of the other cases. You can't just lump them all together into some politically convenient narrative. In the case of murder by Muslims, the attack in Munich was carried out by someone who happened to be a Muslim, but it seems as if it had nothing whatsoever to do with Islam. It is ridiculous to think that any time a Muslim kills someone it's because of Islamic militancy.
When a crazy person carries out an attack in the name of Islamic State, you see progressives trying to shift blame away from radical Islam immediately, attempting to ward off the scapegoating of Muslims. But as far as I'm concerned, any time a crazy person commits an atrocity in the name of Islamic State, some blame must fall on the existence thereof.
I suspect the people who opened this story to comment are interested in seeing how many blame this on jihad, how many on mental illness. This seems to have had nothing to do with religion; but of course the story could change, and if and when it does, motives, and blame, will have to be reassessed. In the meantime, I hope that people, first, might begin to display at least a modicum of impulse control and, second, might stop acting as if every event that happens in the world confirms their prejudices or reinforces their ideological agenda.
When a crazy person carries out an attack in the name of Islamic State, you see progressives trying to shift blame away from radical Islam immediately, attempting to ward off the scapegoating of Muslims. But as far as I'm concerned, any time a crazy person commits an atrocity in the name of Islamic State, some blame must fall on the existence thereof.
I suspect the people who opened this story to comment are interested in seeing how many blame this on jihad, how many on mental illness. This seems to have had nothing to do with religion; but of course the story could change, and if and when it does, motives, and blame, will have to be reassessed. In the meantime, I hope that people, first, might begin to display at least a modicum of impulse control and, second, might stop acting as if every event that happens in the world confirms their prejudices or reinforces their ideological agenda.
21
You've introduced nuance in to the discussion. Thank you.
Preconceived notions and narratives don't mix well with nuance.
Preconceived notions and narratives don't mix well with nuance.
7
With strong anti gun laws, how did Ali Sonboly manage to acquire both the gun and the bullets? How did he learn how to fire that gun?
7
i think there may be one or two tv shows that show people using guns
ok,, maybe 100 tv shows like that
ok,, maybe 100 tv shows like that
4
Banning guns is just as effective as banning drugs.
As times become tough, mental sickness will only increase.
Urban random terrorism is now the new normal, in the developed as well as the developing world. There will always be those who are left behind, and will blame others for it.
Whatever happened to making an honest living the old fashioned way? Is Trump the new model?
Urban random terrorism is now the new normal, in the developed as well as the developing world. There will always be those who are left behind, and will blame others for it.
Whatever happened to making an honest living the old fashioned way? Is Trump the new model?
4
Witnesses reported gunman shouting allahu Akbar as he shot at McDonald. After first suppressing and then accepting that 1200 women were assaulted by 2000 foreign looking men in Cologne at new year, the credibility of German regime is not very high. No matter what the nytimes echo chamber believes or fabricates, ordinary Germans are shaken and they the know the truth very well.
36
This young man was not an immigrant and probably was a Shiite. His family came from Iran. The men that assaulted women were mostly from North Africa and likely Sunni. Most of them seem to have been immigrants. Germans are shaken but the government does not seem to indulge in islamophobia and I trust their judgment in making differentiation. The question I have who was bullying him and why??
12
Yes trust the judgement of same government which let in 2000 molesters.
I know your disappointment as I have also seen with most of the US media as this was not an act of Islamic terror and with that not the sensation expected etc etc.
Is being mentally crazy and troubled a non muslim issue? There are also kids with migrant background from Muslim families go to school and face same challenges as non muslim kids!
Is being mentally crazy and troubled a non muslim issue? There are also kids with migrant background from Muslim families go to school and face same challenges as non muslim kids!
Anti depressive and anti psychotic medications were involved in many of the massacres going back before Columbine. The driver in Nice was on Haldol among other medications. Easy access to guns and the idea of Jihad programmed into youngsters from the time they are 3 years old or allowing our mental thoughts to be in control all very dangerous.
9
A potential side effect of many of those medications is loss of inhibitions, and it seems likely that the well documented increased risk of suicide is one manifestation of loss of inhibition. It is plausible to me that murder could be a potential flipside of that same coin e.g. instead of loss of inhibitions against self-harm, it is loss of inhibitions to harming others.
Lone alienated madmen with no real affiliations are going down in flames and are being exploited not just by ISIS or the KKK, but now by major parties in the US, Germany, France, etc. One thing we know for sure is that Trump will convince us that Clinton is personally responsible for all of these lone attacks and he has a secret solution to stop it instantly when he becomes President. I weep as the fallen innocent victims multiply. The problem is how the mentally ill are handled, the ready availability of firearms designed to kill people, and that societies are struggling to give hope and jobs to the young. The solutions lie there rather than a rush to the bottom.
8
From a CNN article, there was the following:
"A witness who wanted to be identified only by her first name, Lauretta, told CNN her son was in the bathroom with a shooter at the restaurant.
"That's where he loaded his weapon," she said. "I hear like an alarm and boom, boom, boom ... and he's still killing the children. The children were sitting to eat. They can't run."
Lauretta said she heard the gunman say, "Allahu Akbar," or "God is great" in Arabic. 'I know this because I'm Muslim. I hear this and I only cry.'"
If this quote is correct and Lauretta heard correctly, it implies that the Munich killer at least wanted people to think he was identifying with Islamic terrorists, even if he had no direct connections with them.
It seems like emotionally disturbed people absorb and reflect the hatred that fills modern discourse and then broadcast that hatred into the world as if their human bodies were microwave relays for hate.
"A witness who wanted to be identified only by her first name, Lauretta, told CNN her son was in the bathroom with a shooter at the restaurant.
"That's where he loaded his weapon," she said. "I hear like an alarm and boom, boom, boom ... and he's still killing the children. The children were sitting to eat. They can't run."
Lauretta said she heard the gunman say, "Allahu Akbar," or "God is great" in Arabic. 'I know this because I'm Muslim. I hear this and I only cry.'"
If this quote is correct and Lauretta heard correctly, it implies that the Munich killer at least wanted people to think he was identifying with Islamic terrorists, even if he had no direct connections with them.
It seems like emotionally disturbed people absorb and reflect the hatred that fills modern discourse and then broadcast that hatred into the world as if their human bodies were microwave relays for hate.
21
Witnesses also reported that there were three gunmen and that they were using long guns, and that they had disappeared into the subway system.
None of that was true, so why would you believe this one anonymous "witness" when no one else has reported hearing any such thing? I mean if he was screaming it you'd think others would have heard it, no?
None of that was true, so why would you believe this one anonymous "witness" when no one else has reported hearing any such thing? I mean if he was screaming it you'd think others would have heard it, no?
12
@S
Given the number and style of the attacks, worldwide, in literally dozens of locales, the question should be "Why wouldn't YOU believe what statistically, as a significant finding, would seem rather compelling as the likely explanation?"
Given the number and style of the attacks, worldwide, in literally dozens of locales, the question should be "Why wouldn't YOU believe what statistically, as a significant finding, would seem rather compelling as the likely explanation?"
Pathetic to watch US media reporters eager to link Munich's attack to the Islamic State. They were wrong.
The Munich attack was caused by a deranged 18 years old Iranian-German youth. Similar to mass-murder shooters in American schools of the last few decades.
The Munich attack was caused by a deranged 18 years old Iranian-German youth. Similar to mass-murder shooters in American schools of the last few decades.
16
Then why did the attacker shout "Allah Akbar" at the time of the attacks.
7
Not to split hairs -- but he was undergoing treatment for Depression, which doesn't necessarily make him "deranged".
5
Then why did he choose the anniversary of a mass shooting by a rightwing Norwegian who was anti-immigrant and anti-Muslim? BTW: His parents were from Iran. Iranians are generally Shia, while ISIS is militantly Sunni.
5
". . . the Germany edition of the academic study found in the gunman’s room, said the book examined 10 school killers in the United States. It found that they had mental illness, had been exposed to violence and had access to weapons. . . ."
The Munich shooter was yet another troubled youth with a history of mental illness who was nevertheless able to obtain guns. And all of the school shooters in the U.S. had been diagnosed and treated with medications for mental illness as well. This fact is rarely discussed in the mainstream media, perhaps to avoid arousing the belligerence of the NRA.
The Munich shooter was yet another troubled youth with a history of mental illness who was nevertheless able to obtain guns. And all of the school shooters in the U.S. had been diagnosed and treated with medications for mental illness as well. This fact is rarely discussed in the mainstream media, perhaps to avoid arousing the belligerence of the NRA.
15
Susan Klebold would say this was a form of suicide, like her son's actions in Columbine. It sounds similar to the Newtown CT killer as well. The sad intersection of guns, deteriorating mental illness that comes on in the late teens, and male rage, sometimes exacerbated by violent games and constant flow of negative media chatter. And there is also the copycat effect.
13
It seems many commenters are relying on the NYTimes article, much of which is based on information that has subsequently been updated, or on not reading the article at all. The European press quickly made the connection between this shooting and the one that happened five years previously to the day in Norway, and how the shooter was apparently fascinated by Breivik, the Norwegian murderer.
But because this particular killer happened to have a Middle Eastern heritage, he has to be an Islamist in the eyes of those who cannot distinguish between different kinds of criminality.
But because this particular killer happened to have a Middle Eastern heritage, he has to be an Islamist in the eyes of those who cannot distinguish between different kinds of criminality.
13
It does not fit today´s agenda, the media world is looking for sensation and don´t want to waste air time on random shootings from crazy school kids.
I watched CNN for 4 hours and I wish you would be able to see the disappointment of the anchor when the news came out that there was only 1 shooter and that he was an Iranian mentally challenged school kid.
I watched CNN for 4 hours and I wish you would be able to see the disappointment of the anchor when the news came out that there was only 1 shooter and that he was an Iranian mentally challenged school kid.
There is a lot misinformation flowing through these threads.
So, for all non-German speakers -- there is Deutsche Welle in English.
www.dw.com/en/top-stories
So, for all non-German speakers -- there is Deutsche Welle in English.
www.dw.com/en/top-stories
2
Right, actually none of the attacks in the last 15 years had nothing to do with islam, terrorists nor the middle east. It was guns run running wild in the streets of the world forcing these innocents to do what they have done. Those poor people were evisorated in Paris, it was accidental as were the videos and photos of it happening. We are the blame and we will be punished... . Right.
9
Correction: It was guns AND trucks run running wild in the streets of the world forcing these innocents to do what they have done.
1
The shooter was not allowed to have a gun under German law and the gun he used had the serial number scratched off, suggesting strongly that it was stolen or otherwise obtained illegally.
So the only logical next step is to make it more difficult for law-abiding Americans to obtain guns legally!
So the only logical next step is to make it more difficult for law-abiding Americans to obtain guns legally!
12
so now Germany is going to outlaw video games? why doesn't Germany make school bullying - a much greater problem - illegal instead?
10
Good question.... Why don't they do the same thing here???
Unfortunately, school bullying is universal...but still legal.
Unfortunately, school bullying is universal...but still legal.
2
@N. smith "Unfortunately school bullying is universal...but still legal"
Yes let's criminalize bullying, lock up kids and put them in jail so they can learn to be productive members of society. /s
Every school has anti-bullying policies, already in place. Sure they may need some improvement, but making bullying illegal isn't a good idea.
Yes let's criminalize bullying, lock up kids and put them in jail so they can learn to be productive members of society. /s
Every school has anti-bullying policies, already in place. Sure they may need some improvement, but making bullying illegal isn't a good idea.
1
Bullying is not just a problem at schools but rather a general universal issue across all societies and society levels etc.
It is just easier for a 40 years old person to deal with it as it would be the case with an 18 yr old kid.
It is just easier for a 40 years old person to deal with it as it would be the case with an 18 yr old kid.
This fellow was born and bred in Germany. Why call him German-Iranian?
Iranian citizenship is granted if your father is Iranian, even if you have never visited Iran or have ties to it. The mere fact that the perpetrator had Iranian citizenship is incidental and doesn't shed any light on what made him do it.
This is not the first time a German citizen has run amok. There is a classic Fassbinder film on this topic. (Why Does Herr R. Run Amok?)
Iranian citizenship is granted if your father is Iranian, even if you have never visited Iran or have ties to it. The mere fact that the perpetrator had Iranian citizenship is incidental and doesn't shed any light on what made him do it.
This is not the first time a German citizen has run amok. There is a classic Fassbinder film on this topic. (Why Does Herr R. Run Amok?)
4
Why do you call some US Americans Afroamerican even if they and their parents never even visited Africa? Why do the media tell us his gender or age? Isn't it all irrelevant?
For many years, German media didn't mention the nationality or origin of criminal suspects because it was considered stipulating racist views. It turned out, this didn't help and had the opposite effect. Sooner or later, this information becomes public anyway and then it's held against those media because it makes it seem as if they're trying to hide information and distort the truth.
The media shouldn't hide information that is (almost) obvious like a ethnic background. Statistics show that immigrants do not commit more crimes or felonies than native Germans. So there isn't any uncomfortable truth to hide and the media shouldn't pretend there is. It would only undermine their credibility. Many murder suicides - usually just involving the family - during the last years have been committed by native Germans. Also all of the school shootings that took place in Germany which I can remember had native Germans as the culprits. It would be very odd if there was NEVER any such crime committed by someone with foreign roots.
For many years, German media didn't mention the nationality or origin of criminal suspects because it was considered stipulating racist views. It turned out, this didn't help and had the opposite effect. Sooner or later, this information becomes public anyway and then it's held against those media because it makes it seem as if they're trying to hide information and distort the truth.
The media shouldn't hide information that is (almost) obvious like a ethnic background. Statistics show that immigrants do not commit more crimes or felonies than native Germans. So there isn't any uncomfortable truth to hide and the media shouldn't pretend there is. It would only undermine their credibility. Many murder suicides - usually just involving the family - during the last years have been committed by native Germans. Also all of the school shootings that took place in Germany which I can remember had native Germans as the culprits. It would be very odd if there was NEVER any such crime committed by someone with foreign roots.
4
@neil
He is called German-Iranian because his parents are from Iran -- whereas he was born in Munich.
Unlike the U.S. -- you do not receive German citizenship by simply being born there.
Another thing.
There's a very BIG difference between what happend here, and what happened with Herr R. --- good film, though.
He is called German-Iranian because his parents are from Iran -- whereas he was born in Munich.
Unlike the U.S. -- you do not receive German citizenship by simply being born there.
Another thing.
There's a very BIG difference between what happend here, and what happened with Herr R. --- good film, though.
2
"We" call people of African descent African American or Black because this is what they have asked to be called. It's done out of respect.
2
Thank you NYT. This article is why you exist, as it filled in the details and answered the questions about the gunman and the crime. So unlike the shallow, repetitive nonsense on cable "news". In their case, having given the story blanket coverage (of sorts), they dropped it like a hot potato once it couldn't be labeled jihadist terrorism.
3
this has columbine written all over it, literally, says someone who was at columbine that day. the kid even had books on it. this is not something trump or anyone can nuke.
7
What does it exactly means "terror ties"? Does one need to have a membership card? Pay dues? Appear on some list? Isn't the need to create havoc and install the fear in others sufficient? Majority of these attacks are linked to people who are somehow influenced by some Islamic activists. We can pretend that it is not the case, but for how long?
www.isonewsinfo.com
www.isonewsinfo.com
13
You of course realize that to have "terror ties", one must simply look the part, or have an appropriately "Muslim" sounding name --- It's that easy.
2
It's not true that to have "terror ties" you just have to look the part. If that was the case Orlando would still be being called a terrorist attack instead of a hate crime. Or both.
@fox
Re: "Terror ties" -- Whether it's right or wrong, you do know that is what "profiling" is all about, don't you????
Re: "Terror ties" -- Whether it's right or wrong, you do know that is what "profiling" is all about, don't you????
1
Another success story for European style highly regulated gun control. It worked in Norway, Paris, Brussels, and now in Munich. Europe is doing a good job at catching up to the US in mass murder victims. In fact I think they have us beat over the past two years.
9
Europe has nowhere near the gun murder rate of the USA, nor does it have anywhere near the rate of mass shootings that the USA has.
3
Keep telling yourself that.
Psysword comments, "...the common denomination is that they're all Muslim shooters or terrorists in Europe..... I think unpalatable methods like Mr Donald Trump's are going to find rational ears succumbing to them in the near future. I certainly believe so."
Actually, there is absolutely no reference in the article to the perpetrator being Muslim, let alone the slightest indication that Islam played the slightest role in his attack. Unfortunately, the commenter may thus be explaining the support for Trump who he endorses: a tendency by too many to fit "facts" into a preconceived narrative rather than to construct a narrative around actual facts.
Actually, there is absolutely no reference in the article to the perpetrator being Muslim, let alone the slightest indication that Islam played the slightest role in his attack. Unfortunately, the commenter may thus be explaining the support for Trump who he endorses: a tendency by too many to fit "facts" into a preconceived narrative rather than to construct a narrative around actual facts.
5
There is absolutely no reference in the Orlando articles about the perpetrator being Muslim, except that it had nothing to do with it.
The terrorist said it did, but believing his own words instead of mainstream media would be silly.
The terrorist said it did, but believing his own words instead of mainstream media would be silly.
9
Just a few comments:
Why isn't seeking out those with mental health issues the topic of discussion? Is it the cost? ("Yes" is not the correct answer). No one is preventing that. We are all in favor. Why can't we start that? Why can't we start that now?
We are nearly twenty years on since Columbine and nothing has been done of consequence to seek out and provide treatment to those with mental health problems - including the preclusion that they possess firearms.
The Second Amendment is going nowhere - rightly or wrongly. It is indelible. Its supporters are legion, vocal, and strong. So don't even waste you time on gun control.
Let's do something upon which we all agree, something that is within our power, something we can begin tomorrow. If we can deliver on mental health, our problem with mass murders will be only one of many social ills that will be addressed.
Does anyone sense that Merkle is in trouble over her open door policy?
Weren't the Columbine killers were also bullied in school? Same as this kid in Munich?
Mental health people. That's the answer. It's the only workable solution.
Why isn't seeking out those with mental health issues the topic of discussion? Is it the cost? ("Yes" is not the correct answer). No one is preventing that. We are all in favor. Why can't we start that? Why can't we start that now?
We are nearly twenty years on since Columbine and nothing has been done of consequence to seek out and provide treatment to those with mental health problems - including the preclusion that they possess firearms.
The Second Amendment is going nowhere - rightly or wrongly. It is indelible. Its supporters are legion, vocal, and strong. So don't even waste you time on gun control.
Let's do something upon which we all agree, something that is within our power, something we can begin tomorrow. If we can deliver on mental health, our problem with mass murders will be only one of many social ills that will be addressed.
Does anyone sense that Merkle is in trouble over her open door policy?
Weren't the Columbine killers were also bullied in school? Same as this kid in Munich?
Mental health people. That's the answer. It's the only workable solution.
3
I pine for a simpler time when everything could be blamed on rap music.
7
An important difference between Germany and the USA: If a shooter is discovered with an illegal weapon, he can be arrested BEFORE he kills anyone. It didn't work in this case, but it does provide one more layer of protection. If the weapon itself is legal, you have to wait until the shooter kills someone before he can be arrested. Some weapons are literally overkill when it comes to self-defense. They are only good for offensively killing as many people as possible. Anyone who owns such a weapon should be arrestable.
2
Don't we arrest too many people already?
Basically, we need to remind ourselves that we live in the safest, most free, and materialistically abundant times in human history. Plus, there is more help for troubled teens and individuals than there has ever existed before. When I was young, no one even cared whether you were bullied, it was expected, and the only recourse was learning to fight back or not to stand out.
The easiest way to attract clicks, readers, and viewers is to tap into our primal fears as well as the inherent drive towards the impossible ideal self - this is extremely effective but also creates a false view of the environment and our place in it. Bluntly, there is no crisis - we are just better informed. We cannot make a perfect world for ourselves or the entire society. We can get better but relentless perfectionism as a society leads to the same place as perfectionism for an individual - depression.
Maybe because I grew up in the 70's when NY was a cesspool, it seemed a plane a week was being hijacked, we had zero faith in any politician (unlike the scary worship of today for various political candidates), and even for the middle class, we had far less, I tend to look around at what we have today, and think that our problem is life is too good.
The easiest way to attract clicks, readers, and viewers is to tap into our primal fears as well as the inherent drive towards the impossible ideal self - this is extremely effective but also creates a false view of the environment and our place in it. Bluntly, there is no crisis - we are just better informed. We cannot make a perfect world for ourselves or the entire society. We can get better but relentless perfectionism as a society leads to the same place as perfectionism for an individual - depression.
Maybe because I grew up in the 70's when NY was a cesspool, it seemed a plane a week was being hijacked, we had zero faith in any politician (unlike the scary worship of today for various political candidates), and even for the middle class, we had far less, I tend to look around at what we have today, and think that our problem is life is too good.
9
Thanks for those many words of compassion!
3
I think that book by an American academic psychologist gave this teenager an excuse to kill as in the book they say that its a genetic disorder, to be psychotic or have schizophrenia. The teenager mass murderer had an online name that was called, Psycho. After reading that book the killer had an excuse to kill as he labelled himself as having a psychotic condition whereas if he was treated normally for having anger problems and had gone to an anger management course to work through his issues, then he would have not carried out this mass murder. Maybe he was on psychiatric drugs as well, as lots of those drugs have negative side effects and you can google drugs side effects if you want to find out the negative side effects of taking drugs.
3
If you listen to psychologists, it would seem that no one is responsible for anything, Pity.
1
Azalea Lover:
Guilty or not is determined by arbitrary societal conventions that change all the time. Responsible for doing something is another thing altogether, it does not in itself makes someone guilty. One can also be responsible for doing a lot of good things.
In this case, he was obviously responsible for what he did, but society is declaring him guilty of a crime. From the appearance of the case, he was clearly not schizophrenic, he knew exactly what he did by exclaiming 'I don't care the [bleep] what happens', which shows that he was recognizing the difference between right and wrong.
Calling himself 'Psycho' also shows that he was not psychotic, he did realize that his psychological state was pathological. Schizophrenics don't do that, he wasn't in denial about his mental pain.
As easy as it would be to just label this kid an outcast and be done with him, what we need to understand are the root causes, otherwise we will not be able to prevent the next kid from going over the edge. There are thousands like him in Europe and also in America, don't underestimate the problem.
Guilty or not is determined by arbitrary societal conventions that change all the time. Responsible for doing something is another thing altogether, it does not in itself makes someone guilty. One can also be responsible for doing a lot of good things.
In this case, he was obviously responsible for what he did, but society is declaring him guilty of a crime. From the appearance of the case, he was clearly not schizophrenic, he knew exactly what he did by exclaiming 'I don't care the [bleep] what happens', which shows that he was recognizing the difference between right and wrong.
Calling himself 'Psycho' also shows that he was not psychotic, he did realize that his psychological state was pathological. Schizophrenics don't do that, he wasn't in denial about his mental pain.
As easy as it would be to just label this kid an outcast and be done with him, what we need to understand are the root causes, otherwise we will not be able to prevent the next kid from going over the edge. There are thousands like him in Europe and also in America, don't underestimate the problem.
This was at least a copy cat killing, but It's also just as possible that the young man became enamored with Jihad through the internet, and was just disturbed enough to carry out his version of Jihad. Either way, the press is trying to keep any idea of "Islamic Ties" out of the news cycle.....
P.S. Note the Glock 9 millimeter: every bit as deadly as an "assault rifle." Or rather, assault rifles are no more deadly than hang guns.......
P.S. Note the Glock 9 millimeter: every bit as deadly as an "assault rifle." Or rather, assault rifles are no more deadly than hang guns.......
9
Why try to force an 'Islamic radical' angle here when there is no evidence whatsoever? What difference does it make? It's terrible what this young man did.
Latest of the US conspiracy theory trends is that whenever there is a mass shooting, the shooter is a Jihadist. Never mind the eyewitness accounts of him shouting "Ich bin deutsche".
And as for a handgun being as deadly as an assault rifle, please spare us your ignorance. Assault rifles have higher cyclic rates and higher kinetic energies, making them much deadlier than hand guns. You do nothing to further gun control by making false statements.
And as for a handgun being as deadly as an assault rifle, please spare us your ignorance. Assault rifles have higher cyclic rates and higher kinetic energies, making them much deadlier than hand guns. You do nothing to further gun control by making false statements.
3
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this kid had any interest in Islam, let alone radical jihad. Why on earth would you fixate on such nonsense, when it's abundantly clear there was no link to radical Islam whatsoever?
1
Is this shooting spree similar to Newtown in terms of the gunman’s mental state and the victims he was pursuing? According to several reports, the gunman in Munich hacked into a Facebook account and offered free meals at the McDonalds, perhaps in an effort to bring more children and teenagers into the restaurant before he started shooting. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/23/munich-shooting-german-irania....
1
The combination of guns and mental illness, particularly in young men, is almost always a recipe for disaster.
79
You think?
Aren't those who are afflicted with mental illness suppose to be denied gun ownership? In Germany no citizen is allowed to own guns. The question remains, who provided him with guns and ammo?
1
It's humbling to be reminded that the human brain, the very ones we all depend upon to read these very words can malfunction for no good reason that anyone can find. There is no profit in knowing who or what to blame, and this tragic event is a terrible reminder in our own human limitations for understanding ourselves.
3
"Had no terrorist ties" doesn't mean "not inspired by Islamic terrorists." I'm pretty sure the Nice terrorist and Orlando shooter had no terrorist connections either. I'm not convinced it was the violent video games that made him do it. I suppose time will tell what his true motivations were.
24
American in Germany here.
Just pointing out that kids here have to be 18 to drive, and it's unlikely he took the train to buy a gun (which would be expensive for the unemployed son of a taxi driver and department store employee). It's also doubtful a suicidal teenager would have enough foresight to scratch the serial numbers off the guns.
He probably bought his guns in the neighborhood and it's doubtful someone sold them to him no questions asked.
Just pointing out that kids here have to be 18 to drive, and it's unlikely he took the train to buy a gun (which would be expensive for the unemployed son of a taxi driver and department store employee). It's also doubtful a suicidal teenager would have enough foresight to scratch the serial numbers off the guns.
He probably bought his guns in the neighborhood and it's doubtful someone sold them to him no questions asked.
8
@pootee
Sorry -- Your opinion is conjecture.
According to most recent reports in the German Press, not even the Police and the BKA (Bundeskriminalamt) have the answer as to how this young man got the gun. They aren't ruling out the internet.
The only thing for certain is that it's illegal.
Probably best to wait for the facts.
Sorry -- Your opinion is conjecture.
According to most recent reports in the German Press, not even the Police and the BKA (Bundeskriminalamt) have the answer as to how this young man got the gun. They aren't ruling out the internet.
The only thing for certain is that it's illegal.
Probably best to wait for the facts.
1
Something else that is food for thought. I just clicked on the link, Why Kids Kill: Inside the Minds of School Shooters, in this article, and I actually think this so called American academic psychologists book, gave this killer AN EXCUSE to kill by labelling him a psycho or having schizophrenia. This gave him an excuse to kill because he was told in this book, by an obsessive compulsive psychiatric profession, that he is a pre-programmed psycho. Even one of his face book chat names was psycho. I also strongly believe that psychiatric drugs can motivate mass shootings as another German mass murderer Anders Breivik psyched himself up on drugs so as to give him the confidence to go through with his mass murders. Drugs are the cause of lots of mass murders and not the solution. I'm of the opinion that bullying has more to do with the motivation than any psychiatric label.
1
and then there are the tattoos, etc.
2
So the book told him he was Schizophrenic , but up until then he wasn't symptomatic? Well, Finally! an expert on mental diseases and their causes!
First, in the lexicon of Psychiatric disorders, the term "psycho" doesn't exist, it is a insult to both the attending physician and to the client.
Your statement would look better sitting atop a bunch of data.
First, in the lexicon of Psychiatric disorders, the term "psycho" doesn't exist, it is a insult to both the attending physician and to the client.
Your statement would look better sitting atop a bunch of data.
Breivik was not been German
The two things the recent terrorists have in common are ISIS's ideology, and America's obsession with weapons. Guns like the one the gunman in Germany used are very difficult to obtain in Germany, but weaponry is flooding the world.
1
This kid had nothing to do with ISIS.
3
ISIS has provided a framework of permission for young disaffected Muslim, especially, to act out their disaffection and anger, and America has given them a framework of permission to haul out the biggest weapon they can find and fire away.
3
Are you a German investigator?
As a psychologist, I cannot help but believe that the constant glorification of these events by the extensive coverage in the media adds to the likelihood of a mentally disturbed person thinking of this type of violence as a way to deal with their confusion and anger.
There are many ways in which we learn how to deal with anger, frustration and stress. The more these incidents are exposed and discussed in such endless detail the more of a real possibility I believe they become in a distorted or psychotic mind.
There are many ways in which we learn how to deal with anger, frustration and stress. The more these incidents are exposed and discussed in such endless detail the more of a real possibility I believe they become in a distorted or psychotic mind.
10
A logical conclusion. To take it one step further, one that is driven by social media and instant coverage by our online news agencies.
The question is, how do we turn that off?
The question is, how do we turn that off?
1
As disappointing as it is to many that it was not a terrorist attack committed by ISIS or newly arrived immigrants, I am relieved that is was just another nut with a gun and a grudge. In any given population, there will always be a certain percentage of people with similar mental illnesses and the capacity to commit mass carnage. This is why strict gun control is so imperative. How he obtained his weapon will be one for the investigators, but I hope it was difficult and likely not to be repeated.
89
Stick gun control, which Germany has, will not solve this problem. It may help, but think of Nice.
Until the world wakes up to the cultural conspiracy of ripping men's ability of socially and emotionally empathizing out of the souls of boys the massive shifts in gender role we are experiencing will continue to weaponize rage full and impotent men who find power in the desimation of others.
Until the world wakes up to the cultural conspiracy of ripping men's ability of socially and emotionally empathizing out of the souls of boys the massive shifts in gender role we are experiencing will continue to weaponize rage full and impotent men who find power in the desimation of others.
The parents entered Germany from Iran in the 1990s....that's fairly newly arrived. And by the boy's account, they were Hartz IV recipients....so not doing too well economically. Frustrated parents, angry children.
USA should take a lesson from the generally well reasons Germans who instead of fulminating about fantasy terrorist plots, these folks awaited the report from their officials. Compare this to the rants in USA, GOP candidate Trump running around screaming insults as if his hair were on fire and an huge uptick in weapons sales. The baby-boomer Germans and their children, who were taught how America helped save them from the grip of Nazi fascism and mostly appreciated America's airlifts to Berlin and protection from Soviet aggression, America today must be a complete and stunning mystery. . .How could such a country descend to such depths as America has?
3
@jamison
How did we descend to such depths??? -- My first guess would be to look at Donald Trump.
How did we descend to such depths??? -- My first guess would be to look at Donald Trump.
1
Was Ali Sonboly a German-Iranian Columbine school killer like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold or a Newtown school killer like Adam Lanza or a Charleston church killer like Dylann Roof or a Norway camp killer like Anders Brevik or a Waco killer like David Koresh or an Oklahoma City killer like Tim McVeigh?
Was Ali Sonboly inspired by the example of Germany's Nazi right- wing ethnic sectarian supremacist Munich Beer Hall putsch past or the terror of the left-wing German Baader-Meinhof era or the German Hamburg 9/11/01 al Qaeda cell era ?
How can you distinguish between the mentally ill and the religious or political or ethnic or racial fanatic and the murderer or terrorist?
How can you tell the difference between the thinker, the talker and the actor?
Was Ali Sonboly a lunatic or a fanatic?
Was Ali Sonboly inspired by the example of Germany's Nazi right- wing ethnic sectarian supremacist Munich Beer Hall putsch past or the terror of the left-wing German Baader-Meinhof era or the German Hamburg 9/11/01 al Qaeda cell era ?
How can you distinguish between the mentally ill and the religious or political or ethnic or racial fanatic and the murderer or terrorist?
How can you tell the difference between the thinker, the talker and the actor?
Was Ali Sonboly a lunatic or a fanatic?
3
I thought Europe was a gun free zone with green peace ensuring that only the law enforcement could carry guns. I guess I was wrong. It is never too late for Europeans to take away the guns when mass murders and shooting deaths are common.
6
More proof that gun laws don't work. And no terrorist ties, (even if your Muslim), means no Muslim problem, just a gun problem.
2
Yes, you were wrong. There are more than 5 million legally-owned guns in Germany. And very rarely mass shootings.
There is a difference between being "mentally ill" an being deranged. These killers were deranged. As many people who are not "mentally ill" exhibit this kind of violent behavior as those who are "mentally ill." Do not stigmatize the mental health recovery community.
4
Sorry. Call it what you will -- but in the end, they still shouldn't have access to a gun.
2
People often overlook the effect of violent movies and video games on a person. Constant exposure to extreme violence, and violence as a game, is almost guaranteed to have some psychological effect. Even more so if that person is coping with bullying and mental illness. With the feeling of a lack of control over one's life, the thing that is so engrained in your everyday life may seem like the only way out. He was angry and disillusioned with his life. He needed a way to let go and get control. Because of this, he fought back in the only way he felt like he knew how. He killed others and then himself. Killing others may have even given him the courage to kill himself. If his main outlet to cope with his feelings were violent video games, it was only a matter of time before something worse like this happened. We need start recognizing the warning signs in people and looking to help in every way we can. Mental illness needs to be dealt with seriously and not overlooked. We need to be able to recognize the effects of media and violence in the media on youth. The amount of attention and seeming glorification of terrorism does not help the issue either. If we do not take action with these issues, there is no way these tragic shootings will stop. My thoughts and my prayers are with the families of those who lost loved ones in this event.
33
Video game and movie have nothing to do with it. What you think is violent is a far cry from stuff you would see on a traditional farm, slaughterhouse, ER or pet store. Think about this, have you ever seen an ISIS execution video? No. Why? Because news outlet censor most of it and YouTube bans it. Do you think real execution is as clean and neat as those in video games or TV?
2
Hello, the 1990s are calling. They want their baseless anti-video propaganda reasoning back. Billions of people playing violent and non-violent video games have grown up since. The civilized world is much less violent than ever before. In fact, it seems there's so little violence that people see the need to go after virtual violence against pixels. If the world seems more violent and criminal today that's only because of the media which reports each event in real-time all over the world. The world has rarely — if ever — been as peaceful in recent centuries as nowadays.
Let me suggest something else: Stop promising people that there is an after-live. After all, there's not a shred of proof to support this idea and it's a baseless hypothesis. If people didn't believe in heaven, they wouldn't throw their lives away as easily. Life would be considered much more valuable than it is today because there could be no redemption or excuse for taking even one life other than — maybe — saving others.
Let me suggest something else: Stop promising people that there is an after-live. After all, there's not a shred of proof to support this idea and it's a baseless hypothesis. If people didn't believe in heaven, they wouldn't throw their lives away as easily. Life would be considered much more valuable than it is today because there could be no redemption or excuse for taking even one life other than — maybe — saving others.
1
The American military uses such video games to train their killers who are the same age as this shooter.
1
A note: Keep in mind that these explanations are coming from a government in which:
1. Chancellor Merkel has unceremoniously reprimanded social media leaders, such as Mark Zukenberg, for allowing too much criticism of immigration policies and non-European, including those born in Europe whose parents recently immigrated.
2. That the German government actively attempted to quash reporting of the mass molestation of women on New Year's Eve in the Cologne.
1. Chancellor Merkel has unceremoniously reprimanded social media leaders, such as Mark Zukenberg, for allowing too much criticism of immigration policies and non-European, including those born in Europe whose parents recently immigrated.
2. That the German government actively attempted to quash reporting of the mass molestation of women on New Year's Eve in the Cologne.
31
@schbrg
1. I never heard of Chancellor Merkel taking action against Mark Zuckerberg and I read the German Press daily -- when did this happen???
2. You bring this point up, and it's true -- But why you don't go into the reasons why the German government tried to keep a lid on this.
Also -- these attacks didn't only happen in Köln, nor did they only happen to women......and that's part of the reason why they kept it hushed.
1. I never heard of Chancellor Merkel taking action against Mark Zuckerberg and I read the German Press daily -- when did this happen???
2. You bring this point up, and it's true -- But why you don't go into the reasons why the German government tried to keep a lid on this.
Also -- these attacks didn't only happen in Köln, nor did they only happen to women......and that's part of the reason why they kept it hushed.
1
"Attending a luncheon on the sidelines of a United Nations development summit in New York on Saturday, Merkel and Zuckerberg were overheard on a live transmission broadcast on the UN website as participants took their seats.
After Merkel briefly queried Zuckerberg about the hate-post affair, the Facebook CEO is heard responding that “we need to do some work” on the issue."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-26/merkel-confronts-faceb...
The above was a 3 or 4 second google search....there are other results that you can get.
After Merkel briefly queried Zuckerberg about the hate-post affair, the Facebook CEO is heard responding that “we need to do some work” on the issue."
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-09-26/merkel-confronts-faceb...
The above was a 3 or 4 second google search....there are other results that you can get.
1
N. Smith:
Trust me, it is in the German press, repeatedly covered, by the way. Search only for Merkel, Zuckerberg, Facebook and Maas on Google, using these 4 keywords, the entire first page is full of it. Search google.de and you will find the same thing, in German.
Trust me, it is in the German press, repeatedly covered, by the way. Search only for Merkel, Zuckerberg, Facebook and Maas on Google, using these 4 keywords, the entire first page is full of it. Search google.de and you will find the same thing, in German.
This is what bullying does. Bullying leads to these events if not prevented. And Mr. Sonboly gets access to a Glock with a tremendous amount of ammunition? I do not know how it's possible for a teen to obtain such of a weapon. 9 innocent lives were taken...along with 20+ other people injured from the shooting. A 13 year old including in critical condition. It's just so sad and shocking to find middle age teens killed and young adults. I really hope bullying is prevented in the near future.
3
I am not surprised at all! Since the borders to the East opened after 1989, illegal guns have flooded Western Europe. Remember the Paris attacks? They had fully automatic AK47s. Not hard to obtain, if you know where to go.
1
I as bullied and I didn't do this, yet I had access to firearms and played violent video games as a kid. I was raised as a Christian.
6
"I was raised as a Christian"
So was Anders Breivik. Your point?
So was Anders Breivik. Your point?
3
Also, this rampage shows that liberals can think gun control will solve all problems and end shootings forever....but I'm sorry... there are billions of guns in the world. There are 15 million AR15s in private hands just in America. It will never work...if someone wants to get a gun, it will always be possible to find a gun unless we live in a police state where we are constantly tracked and searched on a daily basis.
15
If all the teenagers at the mall had been packing guns that day, none of this would have happened, right?
2
Then again, you might contemplate what would have happened in Munich had the shooter been equipped with an AR-15 instead of a Glock. Twice the magazine capacity, much more accurate, quicker reloading.
Nobody's gun control laws are perfect, and they never will be. The murder rate in Germany and France is 1/5 that of the US.
Nobody's gun control laws are perfect, and they never will be. The murder rate in Germany and France is 1/5 that of the US.
3
I can't help but think that these attacks are encouraged at least to some degree by the worldwide infamy that seems to follow each of these incidents. I don't think that news organizations should ignore these mass attacks but some perspective in the coverage may go a long way toward reducing the frequency with which the borderline deranged actually cross that line and go on a killing spree.
I may be way off base here, any psych majors wanna weigh in? but a mentally unstable young male who feels powerless and inconsequential in this world sees how much attention someone gets worldwide for a senseless and cowardly act and that just has to have some appeal to someone considering such a dastardly act.
I don't know what the answer is but I would love to see the major news outlets do some soul searching about how to balance the public's need to know with other factors that are also important such as reducing mass shootings, knife attacks, vehicle attacks, etc.
An illustration of this concept in practice is demonstrated by networks when they refuse to show fans running on the field during a televised sporting contest so as not to encourage others to run on the field. Some version of that might work, no? The stakes are certainly higher here.
I may be way off base here, any psych majors wanna weigh in? but a mentally unstable young male who feels powerless and inconsequential in this world sees how much attention someone gets worldwide for a senseless and cowardly act and that just has to have some appeal to someone considering such a dastardly act.
I don't know what the answer is but I would love to see the major news outlets do some soul searching about how to balance the public's need to know with other factors that are also important such as reducing mass shootings, knife attacks, vehicle attacks, etc.
An illustration of this concept in practice is demonstrated by networks when they refuse to show fans running on the field during a televised sporting contest so as not to encourage others to run on the field. Some version of that might work, no? The stakes are certainly higher here.
1
your knowledge of th media ia sorely lacking
let me educate you on how it works
if it bleeds, it leads
have it sorted now ?
let me educate you on how it works
if it bleeds, it leads
have it sorted now ?
3
I don't think Islam is the problem, but rather the social dislocation of second generation immigrants from traditional societies, where loyalty and obedience to the family group is more important than service to the self. Parents demand obedience while schools present choices. A father has no understanding why his son doesn't want to be an engineer as he and his father have been.
This is a set up for mental pain and depression for many young men and radical groups are taking full advantage. The difference between Middle Eastern immigrant children and, say, Chinese immigrant children who are under the same pressures, is that eastern Asia is not experiencing the hangover of western imperialism combined with lots of oil. No one is beating up on Korea.
The best thing the West can do is get out from under the need for Mideast oil and let these people develop their own compromises with religion and modernity. Left alone they might redraw national borders in a more sensinle way than the British and French did. The countries of the Mideast have sovereign wealth funds large enough to keep them for a long time while they figure it out.
This is a set up for mental pain and depression for many young men and radical groups are taking full advantage. The difference between Middle Eastern immigrant children and, say, Chinese immigrant children who are under the same pressures, is that eastern Asia is not experiencing the hangover of western imperialism combined with lots of oil. No one is beating up on Korea.
The best thing the West can do is get out from under the need for Mideast oil and let these people develop their own compromises with religion and modernity. Left alone they might redraw national borders in a more sensinle way than the British and French did. The countries of the Mideast have sovereign wealth funds large enough to keep them for a long time while they figure it out.
2
That would leave too much money on the table
1
Imperialism? How about immigrants from Hong Kong, and Vietnam?
6
A violent world is being broadcasted live and replayed over and over again for young people world wide. Its terrifying and I imagine if I were a young person it would trouble me. Only privileged people think they are too far removed from the ills of society to catch up with them and something unfortunate occur.
The mental health statistics in the US are about 1/4 of the people have some disorder mild and managed or otherwise who knows with the exception of those institutionalized. Many Americans are on medication for all forms of anxiety. My guess is that BIG pharma is everywhere. As for weapons, there are people/provocateurs everywhere as well and obviously means to weaponry-- or someone uses whatever is available i.e., the German youth on the train earlier this week.
The world is beset with problems of great magnitude e.g., climate change, income inequality, refugees seeking some peace somewhere and citizens of various countries continue shopping and acting as if nothing is going on. Stating the obvious does not condone it; this was/is an horrific act and no one that is innocent should be cut down in any country. There is rampant anger and anxiety, increased hopelessness and depression being experienced by many.
Many troubled people and many guns does not a good combination make. Yesterday, I heard marked the 5th anniversary some German youth mowed down almost 80 young people at a camp. They were the children of privileged parents. They were innocent, too.
God help us.
The mental health statistics in the US are about 1/4 of the people have some disorder mild and managed or otherwise who knows with the exception of those institutionalized. Many Americans are on medication for all forms of anxiety. My guess is that BIG pharma is everywhere. As for weapons, there are people/provocateurs everywhere as well and obviously means to weaponry-- or someone uses whatever is available i.e., the German youth on the train earlier this week.
The world is beset with problems of great magnitude e.g., climate change, income inequality, refugees seeking some peace somewhere and citizens of various countries continue shopping and acting as if nothing is going on. Stating the obvious does not condone it; this was/is an horrific act and no one that is innocent should be cut down in any country. There is rampant anger and anxiety, increased hopelessness and depression being experienced by many.
Many troubled people and many guns does not a good combination make. Yesterday, I heard marked the 5th anniversary some German youth mowed down almost 80 young people at a camp. They were the children of privileged parents. They were innocent, too.
God help us.
16
Mental health issues in Germany are no different from USA. Until the suicide of the Lufthansa pilot, the issue was seldom discussed. Afterward that tragedy, German news reported some 20%+ citizens suffer from some form of mental illness - not all illness is entirely debilitating.
It was not a German youth, it was a Norwegian sociopath named Anders Brevik and he killed 77 (I believe) kids. He is currently serving a maximum sentence of 21 years, after which he will be released. In the meantime, he is keeping the Norwegian justice system busy with complaining that the prison environment is affecting his psychological well-being.
The Norwegians should consider sending him to Supermax, Huntsville in Texas or perhaps Rikers Island. One less problem to worry about.
The Norwegians should consider sending him to Supermax, Huntsville in Texas or perhaps Rikers Island. One less problem to worry about.
3
That attack was in Norway five years ago and it was a jihadist group that took responsibility .
2
"The glorifying of violence in internet games has a damaging effect on the development of young people,” Thomas de Maizière, the German interior minister, said on Saturday.
What is much more damaging is the 24/7 coverage of the gunmen, of the havoc they wreak, and even of the effect on the friends and families of the wounded and murdered. The daily news, especially as amplified by social media, is itself an encouragement to violence. People who are troubled and desperate and seeking release look at mass shootings and say, "Hey, I could do that!"
Maybe in-depth coverage of troubled people getting help -- and also a society taking "bullying" more seriously; usually it's assault and threatening and stalking, all illegal activities -- could diminish the nonstop focus on violent "solutions" to both personal and political dissatisfaction.
What is much more damaging is the 24/7 coverage of the gunmen, of the havoc they wreak, and even of the effect on the friends and families of the wounded and murdered. The daily news, especially as amplified by social media, is itself an encouragement to violence. People who are troubled and desperate and seeking release look at mass shootings and say, "Hey, I could do that!"
Maybe in-depth coverage of troubled people getting help -- and also a society taking "bullying" more seriously; usually it's assault and threatening and stalking, all illegal activities -- could diminish the nonstop focus on violent "solutions" to both personal and political dissatisfaction.
29
It was shocking to watch reports of another cowardly attack on unarmed civilians unfold on TV yesterday. How was that kid able to obtain the weaponry that he did in Germany, which is supposed to have one of the toughest gun control laws in Europe? My heart goes out to the victims and their families.
12
A million people just flow through Germany's porous border last year. I think a few thousand firearms wouldn't be too much trouble.
16
Beyond evil. But I don't understand why you call him a coward. Don't you know the meaning of the word?
1
Olympiaeinkaufszentrum is not in Maxvorstadt. As you can see on the map, it's in Moosach. This should be changed in the article. I realize it's exciting to say that this happened in the upscale museum district, but that's simply inaccurate.
12
They certainly don't need assault weapons on demand.
Oh please. It makes no difference. Nine people are still dead.
3
I'd also like to add that Maxvorstadt (where the article is claiming his family lives) is completely different than Moosach (where they actually appear to live, close to where the shootings happened). Maxvorstadt is an affluent area, and Moosach is not. It's important to get these details right, especially considering that he spoke of growing up in a "Harz IV" (welfare/public benefits) area and seems to have dealt with the frustrations that a lot of immigrants face in Germany due to lack of integration that can make it difficult for them to improve their socioeconomic status, making them vulnerable to racism, isolation, and bullying.
Is this evidence that Germany needs stricter gun control laws?
11
Germany's gun control laws are fine. But, Germany, due to the EU's inability to control its borders, is not able to stop the waves of illegal weapons being trafficked over its borders from eastern European countries (yes, some are in the EU). This absurd "open borders" insanity that Germany has continued to allow even since this invasion of illegal migrants last year is a big part of the problem. They just can't control the borders well enough. The German police have done incredible work--forced to control herds of people intent on breaking the law into the country since last year, then having to break up fights between Afghans and Pakistanis in (taxpayer-funded) reception centers, control criminal gangs trafficking these people, root out rape and abuse in the centers, etc. They deserve a Nobel prize--not Merkel. An 18 year old easily being able to buy a Glock and 300 rounds illegally is the problem. And the German police have been overwhelmed just taking care of the illegal migrants, and all of the other criminal elements that make this (and illegal weapons) possible have been able to take advantage of this. When your borders (and immigration policy) are controlled by criminal gangs who can smuggle in people and weapons and, who knows what else, you tend to have these problems. Time for a change?
3
It is evidence that the weakest Europe governments such as neighboring Belgium allow the infection of the whole zone.
2
@tony
Germany has some of the strictest gun control laws on the planet.
According to the German Press, the pistol had its registration number filed off -- meaning it was illegal.
The guess is that it was either obtained via the internet, or it was re-formated from a starter's pistol into a lethal weapon.
The Bundeskriminalamt (BKA) is still investigating.
Germany has some of the strictest gun control laws on the planet.
According to the German Press, the pistol had its registration number filed off -- meaning it was illegal.
The guess is that it was either obtained via the internet, or it was re-formated from a starter's pistol into a lethal weapon.
The Bundeskriminalamt (BKA) is still investigating.
1
The Western news media were extremely slow to pick up
on the fact that this attack was on the 5th anniversary of
the terrible slaughter in Norway by a right-wing fanatic.
Not only did the Munich gunman have no ties to Islam, he
appears to have idolized Anders Breivik and other mass
murderers in the West.
Also, after the transportation system was shut down, a
message went out that all mosques in Munich would be
open all night as refuges for those who could not go home.
on the fact that this attack was on the 5th anniversary of
the terrible slaughter in Norway by a right-wing fanatic.
Not only did the Munich gunman have no ties to Islam, he
appears to have idolized Anders Breivik and other mass
murderers in the West.
Also, after the transportation system was shut down, a
message went out that all mosques in Munich would be
open all night as refuges for those who could not go home.
23
Germans in Munich all put out the "Ofenetur" (umlauts unavailable), meaning "open door.".I'm glad muslims participated as well.
Two or three possible models here. 1-the Norway may shooting by the rightwing "extremist" (or "terrorist," why is the term not applied to him?); 2-the depressive German pilot who carried out a suicide and mass murder of al the passengers in the plane; 3-a bullied kid who inspired by all the media coverage of deranged shootings, took revenge. The tape that is circulating in the internet of the exchanges between a man in a building recording and the gunner sounds like a rampage of bullying abuses with which he may have been all too familiar. And the abuse may have the anti immigrant sting, whereby the kid defends himself that he is a "German." So much did he was a "German" that he berated those "Turks," making distinctions between different groups and the also berated Turks. The power of hate and the dramas of humiliation, prejudice and bullying of everyday life amplified into these violent explosions then deemed "terrorism." But there is "terrorism" in the everyday life of many people and groups these days. In the US too. Maybe we should look into those arenas too.
9
According to the German Press, the young man was German-Iranian and born in Munich. But you are absolutely correct in your assessments.
Since the arrival of hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants last year, there has been increased tension and conflicts not only between Germans and foreigners, but between Germans and Germans who dont "look" it.
Since the arrival of hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants last year, there has been increased tension and conflicts not only between Germans and foreigners, but between Germans and Germans who dont "look" it.
2
I would say there is a lot of bullying going on in workplaces and schools and nothing is being done ! We have come to accept that is okay for your superior to bully you or else we will loose our jobs . Our society is in sad place these days and it does not seem to get better .
Exposure to violence, mental illness and access to guns. That's enough under in some cases to trigger a mass shooting. Ideology of any kind isn't needed.
12
Basically, another disturbed, nihilistic, dystopian high school shooter acting out. How many similar plots were nipped in the bud here over the past five years? I've lost track.
Our world, call it the "late 20th century/21st century post-industrial world", produces them like the late 19th century industrial world produced radical syndicalists, militant socialists, anarchists and communards. Lost souls, deeply alienated anti-social people who feel crushed by overwhelmingly huge, immovable systems lash out violently. Sometimes they succeed beyond their wildest dreams. One, Gavrilo Princip, assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, triggering the Great War.
Our world, call it the "late 20th century/21st century post-industrial world", produces them like the late 19th century industrial world produced radical syndicalists, militant socialists, anarchists and communards. Lost souls, deeply alienated anti-social people who feel crushed by overwhelmingly huge, immovable systems lash out violently. Sometimes they succeed beyond their wildest dreams. One, Gavrilo Princip, assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria, triggering the Great War.
8
Question:
How many of these mass murderers/terrorists were medicated in the months and weeks prior to their attacks? Could some of this be a matter of adverse mental and emotional reactions?
How many of these mass murderers/terrorists were medicated in the months and weeks prior to their attacks? Could some of this be a matter of adverse mental and emotional reactions?
8
Yet another example that the source of violence is broader than radical Islam, is broader than a lack of gun control (Nice), and is more fundamentally rooted in isolated males that exhibit a lack of secure attachment to self and others.
Until the world wakes up to the cultural conspiracy of ripping men's ability of socially and emotionally empathizing out of the souls of boys the massive shifts in gender role we are experiencing will continue to weaponize rage full and impotent men who find power in the desimation of others.
Until the world wakes up to the cultural conspiracy of ripping men's ability of socially and emotionally empathizing out of the souls of boys the massive shifts in gender role we are experiencing will continue to weaponize rage full and impotent men who find power in the desimation of others.
5
So you're blaming feminism for this.
16
No Sue. We are blaming men. If no males between 16 and 65 existed the world would be at peace.
1
No. Joseph is blaming the lack of the "feminism" you speak of in the raising of men in western society. Boys are not receiving the type of leadership required to guide them. This shooter along with his psychiatric condition was lost and a victim of bullying and had no one to turn to. Except probably and Xbox, Call of Duty, and the Violent men the western media idolizes.
2
Unfortunately, this sounds like a troubled teenager with mental health issues. The fact is that if he had decided to swear allegiance to ISIS, this would be considered a terrorist act (it doesn't sound like he was in any way religious, but as a Shia, he wouldn't do that anyway).
It's interesting that many have commented on the shooter's ethnic origin, but not many have made the point that 6 of the 9 victims were ethnic Turks or Kosovars and hence almost certainly Muslim.
It's interesting that many have commented on the shooter's ethnic origin, but not many have made the point that 6 of the 9 victims were ethnic Turks or Kosovars and hence almost certainly Muslim.
55
Are you kidding? Do you think Muslims who are radicalized care about their own?
8
The gunman may have been troubled in this particular instance, but we too readily point to mental illness as the cause for shootings. If interested in the topic, I just wrote a piece on it here:
http://www.rsinghnyc.com/musings/2016/7/15/1cj7txj7qahae1fbwor4ai87g34sxr
My heart goes out to the people of Munich. I visited my sister there 6 years ago and walked all over, including through the stunning English Garden. Wonderful city, wonderful people.
Stay strong, Munich. NYC is thinking of you.
http://www.rsinghnyc.com/musings/2016/7/15/1cj7txj7qahae1fbwor4ai87g34sxr
My heart goes out to the people of Munich. I visited my sister there 6 years ago and walked all over, including through the stunning English Garden. Wonderful city, wonderful people.
Stay strong, Munich. NYC is thinking of you.
6
Yes!
Plus, I wish people wouldn't have so much inspiration from all kinds of impacts to do things like that.
Thank you, all this reminded me of 9/11 and many other attacks.
Thanks for your kind words!
Plus, I wish people wouldn't have so much inspiration from all kinds of impacts to do things like that.
Thank you, all this reminded me of 9/11 and many other attacks.
Thanks for your kind words!
Heartfelt condolences to all of sisters and brothers in Munich.
My comment is that it's strange how almost conditioned we all are to expect there should follow reasons for why somebody would have done this kind of thing. As if reasons, or claiming responsibility makes any difference. Senseless murder of self and and others is senseless. There can be no looking for reasons, even when the assailant or the group a murderer belongs to wants us to know why he did the most unforgivable act any human being can commit.
There is no cause or reason that equals the act. And when people are killed, regardless of the excuse, there is no one who has the right to forgive. Deprived of the right to forgive is as painful a form of anguish as there is.
My comment is that it's strange how almost conditioned we all are to expect there should follow reasons for why somebody would have done this kind of thing. As if reasons, or claiming responsibility makes any difference. Senseless murder of self and and others is senseless. There can be no looking for reasons, even when the assailant or the group a murderer belongs to wants us to know why he did the most unforgivable act any human being can commit.
There is no cause or reason that equals the act. And when people are killed, regardless of the excuse, there is no one who has the right to forgive. Deprived of the right to forgive is as painful a form of anguish as there is.
1
The NYT's perpetuates the notion that there are two sides in this world. The unabashed imbalance between the reporting when there are terrorist attacks in Europe or the US, and the reporting of terrorist attacks in countries such as Afghanistan is not without consequences. It sends a message, it declares some lives above others, some lives deserving it more. It perpetuates the kind of world view that leads to someone like Trump coming to power.
The Nice attack took up the whole front page. Todays Kabul attack is lost below the Munich attacks which were of a much lesser scale.
Why? What is this editorial decision based on ?
The Nice attack took up the whole front page. Todays Kabul attack is lost below the Munich attacks which were of a much lesser scale.
Why? What is this editorial decision based on ?
54
Not all lives matter that much. Especially Muslim lives. At least that's what Sunnis think and practice. Shia lives don't matter to them.
20
Life isn't fair and an attack in my backyard is more a concern to me then an attack in a cave somewhere. I live in New York and might visit Munich, Paris, Nice but I doubt I will go to Kabul.
5
"At least that's what Sunnis think and practice."
As do many millions of Americans.
As do many millions of Americans.
McDonald's was intentionally chosen as the place where this latest maniac selected to create death and mayhem. A likely tip of the proverbial hat to America?
What's crazier than crazy is that these lunatics don't just want to take down themselves out, they want to take a whole lot of innocents along with them.
This in itself is extremely disturbing. There is no way of stopping these individuals or predicting who, what and when is next. Unfortunately, it's going to happen again. And again and again. Maybe with such frequency that we will become numbed by this violence, sadly.
What's crazier than crazy is that these lunatics don't just want to take down themselves out, they want to take a whole lot of innocents along with them.
This in itself is extremely disturbing. There is no way of stopping these individuals or predicting who, what and when is next. Unfortunately, it's going to happen again. And again and again. Maybe with such frequency that we will become numbed by this violence, sadly.
4
Yes, it will happen again & again as it has since the inception of human life. Are people really completely unaware that we have always been a violent species & murder, no matter the motive, has & always probably will be a part of human existence.
It's as if people really believe that "hey, someone of Muslim descent killed people. Wow, I can't believe that murders just started occuring in the world. I mean I always thought all those wars in ancient times & those true crime movies, books, Dateline & 20/20 episodes weren't actually real."
It's as if people really believe that "hey, someone of Muslim descent killed people. Wow, I can't believe that murders just started occuring in the world. I mean I always thought all those wars in ancient times & those true crime movies, books, Dateline & 20/20 episodes weren't actually real."
4
No, he choose *Mc*Donald's because he was angry that the people of Scotland want to leave the United Kingdom. /irony off
@scream
Sorry. Es tut mir leid. But this is hardly the time for irony.
People have died in this senseless act.
Sorry. Es tut mir leid. But this is hardly the time for irony.
People have died in this senseless act.
This is just a case of transferring the problems caused by caste-class systems and intolerance of minority groups in muslim majority nations into western world nations as I read that he was bullied at school by Turks and Arab students. Also the kid had 300 unused rounds of ammunition and an illegal gun on him in a nation with strict gun laws; maybe given to him by a terrorist cell. Terrorist cells used troubled people to carry out their work for them; not unlike what happens in muslim majority nations. Germany sounds like a nation that is like something from out of that movie, I Robot, and the way that kid referred to himself as being from the Hartz 4 area is disgusting. Uk! You're bound to get problems in society if you isolate people on welfare and make them live in a specific suburb. Merkel has no commonsense and should have seen the consequences of bringing in millions of refugees when you don't have jobs for them or use them like robots; not unlike the I Robot movie.
27
I agree with your lack of common sense comment, but that guy was born in Germany, and he lived under excellent conditions, comparable to a "two blocks from Central Park" apartment.
He was not a pseudo-refugee, i.e. sleeper terrorist.
Whether he got the gun and ammunition (both of which require separate permits in Germany, which an 18 year old would most certainly not have received) from ISIS or acquired them on his own on the black market is unclear, but there is good reason to speculate the first scenario. However, the borders to the East are porous and guns flow in from there all the time. In fact, the cost of that gun on the black market was probably less than what a legal buyer would have to pay here in the US. Another source might have been the Balkans.
He was not a pseudo-refugee, i.e. sleeper terrorist.
Whether he got the gun and ammunition (both of which require separate permits in Germany, which an 18 year old would most certainly not have received) from ISIS or acquired them on his own on the black market is unclear, but there is good reason to speculate the first scenario. However, the borders to the East are porous and guns flow in from there all the time. In fact, the cost of that gun on the black market was probably less than what a legal buyer would have to pay here in the US. Another source might have been the Balkans.
9
Being bought up in a rough neighbourhood and environment where the shooter referred to himself as being from the Hartz 4 area is inhumane and a cruel way for a nation that calls itself a democracy to treat people. I live in NZ and unemployed people can live where ever they want to and in any suburb they want to if they can afford it; unemployed people can own their own homes and live amongst the rich if they made wise property decisions and moved up the ladder. In NZ you can be unemployed and live in a million dollar home if you want to. No caste class systems here and limits on where the unemployed can live.
Please note:
'One of the bystanders fumed at “Turks,” and the gunman replied, “I am German,” “I was born here,” and “I grew up here in a Hartz IV area,” a reference to a tier of unemployment and welfare benefits — meaning that he was from a bottom rung of society.'
You can hear him say that on a video! No 'two blocks from Central Park!'
'One of the bystanders fumed at “Turks,” and the gunman replied, “I am German,” “I was born here,” and “I grew up here in a Hartz IV area,” a reference to a tier of unemployment and welfare benefits — meaning that he was from a bottom rung of society.'
You can hear him say that on a video! No 'two blocks from Central Park!'
2
What is common, besides youth and being male, in both of these sets of mayhem is disconnection from the cultural ethos of the countries they are living in. There have always been individuals in any society who are a bit "off-center", but why now do they want to kill their fellow citizens in such great numbers?
Without question, intentionally or not, the EU has brought the thinking and beliefs of the Middle East to live among them for better or worse. So now how do they resolve that cultural divide? So how do governments that have had a hand in creating this environment protect its citizens now?
The answer to the latter is they can't, no more than they can in the U.S. In so many ways, the citizens are on their own--something any government is reluctant to say, especially after all the taxes taken and the promises of safety made.
Without question, intentionally or not, the EU has brought the thinking and beliefs of the Middle East to live among them for better or worse. So now how do they resolve that cultural divide? So how do governments that have had a hand in creating this environment protect its citizens now?
The answer to the latter is they can't, no more than they can in the U.S. In so many ways, the citizens are on their own--something any government is reluctant to say, especially after all the taxes taken and the promises of safety made.
17
What about the killers at Columbine, Virginia Tech, Aurora, Sandy Hook, Charleston etc? Were they engaging in "...thinking and beliefs of the Middle East..."?
78
Claudia, it's useless... The fact that he was of Iranian descent is enough for many people to make him a muslim terrorist , no matter what. The media is brainwashed, it is pushed under the carpet by the police, government, Merkel is to blame for everything,blablabla .At least, I can assure you that it's seen much more rational here in Germany! Hope that is a little solace for you! Viele Grüsse aus Berlin!
5
Conflating those who are assured of entry (by dint of brutal violence) into paradise with those clinically insane individuals obtaining access to weaponry and guilty of same brutal violence is yet another example of moral relativism and intellectual confusion in the public discourse on this subject.
1
Merkel goives the same old western respond, 'don't worry the government will protect you and this is a despicable act of a crazed few'! Merkel's been in office 10 years, she's stayed to long at the fair, so to speak. Even after 4 years in the US, we tire of our Chief Executives, how much more so is it for Germany with a 10 year reign. We need shorter terms of Execurive power, nit longer, people get stale in their jobs no matter how good they were initially.
5
Sorry, but "getting tired of" a chief executive is not a good reason to replace him/her. As long as s/he's doing a good job, and as long as there is nobody in sight who could do a better job, s/he should stay in office.
2
> "Merkel's been in office 10 years, she's stayed to long
. . . We need shorter terms of Executive power"
1) Merkel has been in office only because she is popular with the majority of the voters. Likewise, it was a very large majority that elected FDR to 4 terms during our Great-Depression & WWII. Likewise again, the voters of NYC, somehow broke their own law to elect Bloomberg as their mayor for three terms
2) The REAL Problem here is the case of authoritarian regimes like Putin, and Erdoğan, or what would have happened with the Muslim-Brotherhood in Egypt
If those folks have enough strength/Power, they are gonna stay in office as long as they like
A really crazy aspect of this is the clownish notion of a ceremonial-President, with a Prime-Minister who 'supposedly' has the actual power. This is a game that Putin used to bounce back and forth between different official positions while still maintaining full control. However, it is clear that Putin was going to stay in power 'no matter what'; and that the particular mechanism to be used was of little importance.
Gotta hand it to the Brits, when the public sentiment changes, their leaders resign pretty quickly, and turn the government over to the 'people's choice'
BUT WHAT HAPPENED in 2003, there were mass demonstrations against the otherwise-honorable Tony Blair's becoming a lapdog for GWB/Cheney
AND, absolutely NO, anybody with a brain knew 100% that GWB & Co. were lying through their teeth about almost everything
. . . We need shorter terms of Executive power"
1) Merkel has been in office only because she is popular with the majority of the voters. Likewise, it was a very large majority that elected FDR to 4 terms during our Great-Depression & WWII. Likewise again, the voters of NYC, somehow broke their own law to elect Bloomberg as their mayor for three terms
2) The REAL Problem here is the case of authoritarian regimes like Putin, and Erdoğan, or what would have happened with the Muslim-Brotherhood in Egypt
If those folks have enough strength/Power, they are gonna stay in office as long as they like
A really crazy aspect of this is the clownish notion of a ceremonial-President, with a Prime-Minister who 'supposedly' has the actual power. This is a game that Putin used to bounce back and forth between different official positions while still maintaining full control. However, it is clear that Putin was going to stay in power 'no matter what'; and that the particular mechanism to be used was of little importance.
Gotta hand it to the Brits, when the public sentiment changes, their leaders resign pretty quickly, and turn the government over to the 'people's choice'
BUT WHAT HAPPENED in 2003, there were mass demonstrations against the otherwise-honorable Tony Blair's becoming a lapdog for GWB/Cheney
AND, absolutely NO, anybody with a brain knew 100% that GWB & Co. were lying through their teeth about almost everything
2
German paliamentary laws are very differeny from, and have nothing to do with those of the United States.
However one thing both countries have in common, is the right to free and fair elections, so the German people will decide when it is time for a new Chancellor.
However one thing both countries have in common, is the right to free and fair elections, so the German people will decide when it is time for a new Chancellor.
2
Almost all of the recent terrorist attacks have been carried out by someone with diagnosable (and treatable) forms of mental illness. The most interesting question for me is why they all come from the same impoverished and marginalized community.
Does cultural Islam look down on mental illness to the point where treatment is considered a source of shame? Does a combination of marginalization and mental illness increase the probability of violence? Perhaps another reason?
I am genuinely curious and would love to know what anyone with expertise thinks.
Does cultural Islam look down on mental illness to the point where treatment is considered a source of shame? Does a combination of marginalization and mental illness increase the probability of violence? Perhaps another reason?
I am genuinely curious and would love to know what anyone with expertise thinks.
12
I am half Iranian. I have many German relatives. One thing that is obvious to me about both cultures is that in both it is expected and accepted that the strong dominate the weak. There is deep culture of bullying and brutality against those that are under your power in Germany and Iran.
To be human and not a wild animal is to understand and believe that the strong should protect the weak. But try telling Trump and his followers that. They want to import the culture of barbarians and Fascists into the USA.
To be human and not a wild animal is to understand and believe that the strong should protect the weak. But try telling Trump and his followers that. They want to import the culture of barbarians and Fascists into the USA.
4
As the article states, this child was raised in a secular - i.e. not religious -- household. Islam has nothing to do with anything.
3
1. The Oslo killer of 77 young people was NOT Muslim.
2. The Sandy Hook massacre perpetrator was NOT Muslim.
3. TImothy McVeigh was a blond haired, blue eyed Catholic.
And your point is…?
2. The Sandy Hook massacre perpetrator was NOT Muslim.
3. TImothy McVeigh was a blond haired, blue eyed Catholic.
And your point is…?
4
Just as Hillary Clinton is either loved or hated for being an incrementalist in her way of governing, we could learn from her and approach gun control in the same manner. Too many of us shrug off the idea of gun control because gun proliferation is so entrenched in our society. If we approach the problem incrementally, we could at least plot out a design to take certain weapons out of the public's hands over time.
We should also revisit our approach to gun manufacturers. The industry should not be treated as just another free market business, it should be regulated with a fury that limits production based upon the need for societal benefit-namely keeping most weaponry in the hands of police and the military but only up to a sensible point.
This sounds almost preposterous because we are so stunted in the acceptance of all things having to do with guns and the supposed second amendment right to own copious amounts of them.
We need to implement gun control incrementally, and in doing so we could show a watching world that even a society so run amok with the love of guns in the name of freedom can itself address its own collective mental illness.
We should also revisit our approach to gun manufacturers. The industry should not be treated as just another free market business, it should be regulated with a fury that limits production based upon the need for societal benefit-namely keeping most weaponry in the hands of police and the military but only up to a sensible point.
This sounds almost preposterous because we are so stunted in the acceptance of all things having to do with guns and the supposed second amendment right to own copious amounts of them.
We need to implement gun control incrementally, and in doing so we could show a watching world that even a society so run amok with the love of guns in the name of freedom can itself address its own collective mental illness.
176
I would think that incidents like these in Norway, France and Germany, that all have very restrictive gun laws in comparison to the USA would make you reconsider your assumptions.
America is the largest exporter of arms in the world.
America is the largest exporter of arms in the world.
7
This has nothing to do with the situation in Germany, the focus of this article, where gun ownership is tightly controlled. Somehow this 18 year old individual acquired a Glock and 300 rounds of ammunition. Where? How? There are unanswered questions here that need to be examined.
What is happening in Germany and in other European countries, unfortunately, is that the influx of migrants, over the past years, has now made Europe a part of the Middle East. Whether Gelsenkirchen or parts of Munich. It has imported the Middle East's national, ethnic, racial, gender conflicts and yes, its biases against the mentally ill.
It's just horrific and its time for Europe to rethink Schengen (again) and close the borders until they can get a handle on these fundamental changes to European society. He may not have been a terrorist in the classical sense, but he was certainly influenced by his surroundings within a Muslim community in Munich, and in Iran.
What is happening in Germany and in other European countries, unfortunately, is that the influx of migrants, over the past years, has now made Europe a part of the Middle East. Whether Gelsenkirchen or parts of Munich. It has imported the Middle East's national, ethnic, racial, gender conflicts and yes, its biases against the mentally ill.
It's just horrific and its time for Europe to rethink Schengen (again) and close the borders until they can get a handle on these fundamental changes to European society. He may not have been a terrorist in the classical sense, but he was certainly influenced by his surroundings within a Muslim community in Munich, and in Iran.
16
Are you implying, on the basis of an isolated shooting, the death rates by gun in Norway, France or Germany in any way compare to the death rate in the US?
America, the government, the legitimate institutions that form the structure of our society has killed more innocent people than all of these mass murderers. What's their excuse? "But we don't do it on purpose". America kills kills and kills some more but people are mystifies as to the cause when we have incidents like these.
4
American media needs to emphasize, like this article does, that he wasn't a "Muslim terrorist" like all the right-wing politicians and their servants will claim. They will lump this attack into ones inspired by terrorist groups because to them all attacks are inspired by the group they hate. Reporters will hear them say this and not correct them, and reporters need to correct people, especially politicians, who lump all terrorist attacks into one group of people. This was right-wing hatred, inspired by right-wing politics, not Muslims.
6
> "American media needs to emphasize, like this article does, that he wasn't a "Muslim terrorist" . . "
REALITY-CHECK: Although it 'appears' that the primary motivator for him was mental depression, and fascination with "School-Shootings"
. . . there actually is an Islamic aspect to this case
1) He was a dual-citizen of Iran, and identified as a Shiite
2)a woman named Lauretta told CNN that she was in the McDonald’s, and she saw the killer come out of the bathroom, and she said The gunman yelled “Allahu akbar!”
REALITY-CHECK: Although it 'appears' that the primary motivator for him was mental depression, and fascination with "School-Shootings"
. . . there actually is an Islamic aspect to this case
1) He was a dual-citizen of Iran, and identified as a Shiite
2)a woman named Lauretta told CNN that she was in the McDonald’s, and she saw the killer come out of the bathroom, and she said The gunman yelled “Allahu akbar!”
6
1) Shiite Muslims are targeted for assassination by ISIS, not recruited for service.
2) The article clearly states that he was raised in a secular - read: non-religious - household.
3) Witnesses also claimed they saw three gunmen with long guns. That turned out to be false as well.
3) CNN was the only media outlet to speak with this anonymous "Lauretta". There is not a single other corroborating witness to this claim. There are, however, other quoted witnesses that heard him yelling vile things about foreigners.
2) The article clearly states that he was raised in a secular - read: non-religious - household.
3) Witnesses also claimed they saw three gunmen with long guns. That turned out to be false as well.
3) CNN was the only media outlet to speak with this anonymous "Lauretta". There is not a single other corroborating witness to this claim. There are, however, other quoted witnesses that heard him yelling vile things about foreigners.
2
Thanks Savannah for your additional information:
1) "The article clearly states that he was raised in a secular - read: non-religious - household"
REALITY-CHECK: with Islam, it makes little difference how you are raised, if you identify in any way as a Muslim, then you are ALWAYS susceptible to being 'brought back' to the faith of the Koran, and the "OFFICIAL" example of "The Prophet" {EXHIBIT-1: "Dzhokhar Tsarnaev", his friends from college simply could not EVER imagine that he would have gotten involved with the Boston-Bombing }
2) "Shiite Muslims are targeted for assassination by ISIS" while this is *MOSTLY* True. Everything I've heard suggests that ISIS is not particularly 'targeting' Shiites, or vice-versa. The BIG issue here, is that ISIS has territorial ambitions, and they are after 'WHOEVER' has the easiest targets for them to rape, rob, and pillage.
As far as bombing each other's Mosques & Marketplaces;
. . . that's been going on for 1300+ years, long before ISIS, and even if ISIS disappears tomorrow, they will still keep attacking each other
Which kills me, whenever I hear apologists saying like: "Religion of Peace" or "Prophet for our times"
They aren't even peaceful between themselves
1) "The article clearly states that he was raised in a secular - read: non-religious - household"
REALITY-CHECK: with Islam, it makes little difference how you are raised, if you identify in any way as a Muslim, then you are ALWAYS susceptible to being 'brought back' to the faith of the Koran, and the "OFFICIAL" example of "The Prophet" {EXHIBIT-1: "Dzhokhar Tsarnaev", his friends from college simply could not EVER imagine that he would have gotten involved with the Boston-Bombing }
2) "Shiite Muslims are targeted for assassination by ISIS" while this is *MOSTLY* True. Everything I've heard suggests that ISIS is not particularly 'targeting' Shiites, or vice-versa. The BIG issue here, is that ISIS has territorial ambitions, and they are after 'WHOEVER' has the easiest targets for them to rape, rob, and pillage.
As far as bombing each other's Mosques & Marketplaces;
. . . that's been going on for 1300+ years, long before ISIS, and even if ISIS disappears tomorrow, they will still keep attacking each other
Which kills me, whenever I hear apologists saying like: "Religion of Peace" or "Prophet for our times"
They aren't even peaceful between themselves
To everyone trying to amplify the narrative (or conspiracy theory) that maps their their own worldview, give it a rest, will you? Let Germany and its leaders do their jobs. It's not up to you. Just because the internet enables you to say something through a few easy keystrokes doesn't make it right. Please try to show a little restraint and respect for a nation in mourning. All the facts of the case will emerge over time.
132
JB, your point is valid, but we too have a choice to make between Hillary and Trump and the Munich incident is relevant since we might want to compare it with San Bernardino and Orlando.
Personally I would feel safer with Trump, because I do not see him as the xenophobic racist who is the media's creation. I fear Hillary more because she was the one who voted for the Iraq war, and later, as SoS, destabilized Libya.
JB, face it, most of the people reading the NYT are Americans or at least non-Germans. You cannot say that we should not discuss this matter because we are not Germans.
Personally I would feel safer with Trump, because I do not see him as the xenophobic racist who is the media's creation. I fear Hillary more because she was the one who voted for the Iraq war, and later, as SoS, destabilized Libya.
JB, face it, most of the people reading the NYT are Americans or at least non-Germans. You cannot say that we should not discuss this matter because we are not Germans.
13
"I fear Hillary more because she was the one who voted for the Iraq war, and later, as SoS, destabilized Libya. "
I am sure that she will try to show that she is tougher than any man and have no hesitation to launch a nuclear strike if she wants to.
I am sure that she will try to show that she is tougher than any man and have no hesitation to launch a nuclear strike if she wants to.
6
@charles
You speak in tropes. Clinton has no need to "show that she is tougher".
Anybody who has been under intense scrutiny as long as she has, and survived YEARS of Republican abuse is obviously made of much sterner stuff.
In any case, her temperment is far better suited to holding the Nuclear Codes, than some thin-skinned bully who takes offense at the slightest.
You speak in tropes. Clinton has no need to "show that she is tougher".
Anybody who has been under intense scrutiny as long as she has, and survived YEARS of Republican abuse is obviously made of much sterner stuff.
In any case, her temperment is far better suited to holding the Nuclear Codes, than some thin-skinned bully who takes offense at the slightest.
2
Why, why? Why the Kabul blasts are at fourth tier of news??? Aren't Afghans people too?
19
Easy answer. Afghanistan is a society where these things are commonplace. Misogynistic, tribalistic, beholden to a twisted religion. Germany, on the other hand has built a society that is NOT based on these things. Afghan lives don't matter to other Afghans. None of the current Afghan government leaders families even live in Afghanistan. 200 thousand young Afghanis are sitting here in Europe trying to work a bogus "asylum" claim. Over the past 15 years, the country and its corrupt government have received billions in aid money--and stolen most of it. The west has sacrificed, what, twenty thousand soldiers either dead or maimed to help these people, to no avail. Why should anyone care about them?
15
I was watching the news and they talked about the protest taking place and showed pictures of protesters walking through the streets with signs (some in English) urging that they be adequately provided with electricity. There were armed police marching in front of them for protection. Hours later, I wonder where the blast hit - if maybe some of the protesters I saw in the newscast are now dead. If we allow terrorism in Afghanistan, we shouldn't be too surprised if it takes place in the West as well. After all we live on the same planet.
2
Have any Times journalists looked into the coincidence of a reporter in Nice who allegedly took video of the death-truck who was also the videographer of the Munich gunman outside of the McDonald's...Richard Gutjahr?
14
Is there any evidence for your statement?
9
provide the links to the two movies to support this statement, please.
I have provided links if the NYT ever prints it....
1
Radical Islamist terrorism is a real and growing problem in Europe.
But this incident does not appear to be related to any religion at this point. Based on facts presented by the Munich police and by reports of eyewitnesses, it appears to simply be tragic violence perpetrated by a mentally ill young man. (That doesn't make it any less painful for the victims and their families.)
But this incident does not appear to be related to any religion at this point. Based on facts presented by the Munich police and by reports of eyewitnesses, it appears to simply be tragic violence perpetrated by a mentally ill young man. (That doesn't make it any less painful for the victims and their families.)
17
Regardless of the true motivations behind the attack, most of Germany and the world will largely notice one thing, that the person is of Middle Eastern descent. If this had been a white German, such as that pilot who purposely crashed, this would of course be viewed differently. However, I can't imagine this incident will further the cause of allowing more refugees and migrants into Germany and the rest of Europe.
4
Iran isn't in the Middle East and is not an Arabic country.
3
Rohit:
Trump is a different character entirely, so the accusations seem even more out in left field. As you've pointed out, Trump has a knack for making a lot of the routine thought and "accepted wisdom" seem disconnected and even silly.
Trump is a different character entirely, so the accusations seem even more out in left field. As you've pointed out, Trump has a knack for making a lot of the routine thought and "accepted wisdom" seem disconnected and even silly.
2
You must be confusing the American Middle East with the world region Middle East. Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East
You're correct though that Iran isn't part of Arabia.
You're correct though that Iran isn't part of Arabia.
Condolences for the victims. now terrorist suspects are under control but others without a trace are hunting down for the government's sins. why? ISIS cleric's call is not groundless maybe? or is it weakness of German intel?
Quick! Let's all jump to conclusions as fast as we can!
What is a "terrorist act"? Is there a universally accepted definition? Is every mass shooting a terrorist act? Or only those mass shootings by Muslims?
My point is that it is way too soon for us, or for the authorities for that matter, to be deciding what this boy's motivation was. Apparently he didn't leave any specific statements such as the videos left by the Paris attackers of last November that clearly stated they were acting as terrorists.
I hope the investigators and the government conduct a deep investigation of what happened and what led to this. I also hope they are completely open to the public with their findings. But they must have at least a few days before we all start drawing conclusions.
What is a "terrorist act"? Is there a universally accepted definition? Is every mass shooting a terrorist act? Or only those mass shootings by Muslims?
My point is that it is way too soon for us, or for the authorities for that matter, to be deciding what this boy's motivation was. Apparently he didn't leave any specific statements such as the videos left by the Paris attackers of last November that clearly stated they were acting as terrorists.
I hope the investigators and the government conduct a deep investigation of what happened and what led to this. I also hope they are completely open to the public with their findings. But they must have at least a few days before we all start drawing conclusions.
2
This attack kind of illustrates what the pro-gun lobby here in the USA has been saying which is that only the law abiding people who obey gun laws. Strict gun laws essentially disarm law abiding people and leave them defenseless against those intent on committing murder and mayhem.
9
Please document the number of times innocent lives were saved by the open-carry movement.
And BTW -- if open-carry is such a boon for the public safety, why was the area around the Republican National Convention into a no-gun zone? Hypocrites, hypocrites.
And BTW -- if open-carry is such a boon for the public safety, why was the area around the Republican National Convention into a no-gun zone? Hypocrites, hypocrites.
I only hope that Trump, always weak on foreign policy, recognizes that this troubled youth with dual Iranian citizenship, was from a country who's brand of Islam, Shiite, is the adversary of the Sunni's therefore making him ineligible to be called an ISIS terrorist.
8
Shiites may hate Sunnis but I am sure that they both hate western "infidels" even more. As the old saying goes "me against my brother, me and my brother against the world".
10
How do you know he didn't convert?
2
How do you know he was a Muslim? He had a secular upbringing. There are other religions in Iran.
God help us all, this almost doesn't seem like breaking news any more. The daily mass shooting should be reported with the morning traffic report and the weather. What a world.
27
One common factor that I have noticed among the mass murders in the world, including both the ones that are and are not related to the Islamic extremism ideology, is that most of the attacks were committed by young men (young men in their teens, their 20's, and their 30's).
However, mental illness does not just affect young men. According to statistics, mental illness (especially depression) is actually common among the elderly people, and mental illness is also more common among women than it is among men. These facts lead me to believe that mental illness is not the only factor that contributes to all of these regular mass murders as well as the ISIS- inspired attacks.
However, mental illness does not just affect young men. According to statistics, mental illness (especially depression) is actually common among the elderly people, and mental illness is also more common among women than it is among men. These facts lead me to believe that mental illness is not the only factor that contributes to all of these regular mass murders as well as the ISIS- inspired attacks.
7
All males. All wars male induced. Male population a danger to all life forms.
12
Mental illness magnified by testosterone. Once testosterone levels drop, so does aggression.
No data on transgenders yet, the bathrooms remain quiet for now.
No data on transgenders yet, the bathrooms remain quiet for now.
2
It is remarkable how commenters here are distorting the facts to make them fit their worldview. The attacker was bullied but probably by other immigrant kids. He was caught on tape yelling a racial slur against Turks and all of his confirmed victims (seven out of nine) were also teenagers with foreign roots.
As a former resident of Munich, I can't say that Germans are any less welcoming to foreigners than Americans (Germans were much more so in the migrant crisis) and as a father I can say that schoolyard bullying is not a greater problem there than it is elsewhere. But, hey, who cares about the specifics of a tragedy if one can make an ideological point?
My heart goes out to the victims of the shooting and also to the parents of the shooter, who lost a son to mental illness in the worst conceivable way possible.
As a former resident of Munich, I can't say that Germans are any less welcoming to foreigners than Americans (Germans were much more so in the migrant crisis) and as a father I can say that schoolyard bullying is not a greater problem there than it is elsewhere. But, hey, who cares about the specifics of a tragedy if one can make an ideological point?
My heart goes out to the victims of the shooting and also to the parents of the shooter, who lost a son to mental illness in the worst conceivable way possible.
87
How is the Kabul terror attack not the top news?
38
Exactly. Muslim savagery stories suppressed. Wouldn't want to rile the population.
14
because it's more unusual for an attack to happen in Germany and people care more about what happens in Europe
2
This is very easy to answer, 1. the western media places more emphasis on western news than non-western news, knowing that their audience is readers living in the west, 2. there is a much more extensive news network in the west than in Afghanistan, and 3. people are by now accustomed to such news in Afghanistan, it has a weak government, the Taliban is resurgent there, and it is a quasi-war zone. Give it time, these events are very alarmingly and tragically becoming increasingly more frequent in the west; at the current rate, westerners will become used to these tragic events as well, just ask the French prime minister Manuel Valls who said, "France is going to have to learn to live with terrorism'.
Nothing to do with Islam.
4
The fact that he had no clear ISIS ties is a cause for MORE worry and less. It is possible, if not easy, for the German police to keep track of people who communicate with ISIS. But random attacks by people who are inspired by a vague Islamic ideology are far more difficult to prevent. We see that gun control does not work well enough and we also see that immigration control will not work with the radicalized children of immigrants.
This is the time for the right and the left in the West to TALK to each other and not indulge in invective.
This is the time for the right and the left in the West to TALK to each other and not indulge in invective.
4
He wasn't inspired by Islam or Isis. Isis hates Shiites. Iranians, although governed by an Islamic government, live secular lives and deal with the fact that they do not have separation of church and state. Sex, Drugs and Rock n Roll it's a phone call away in Iran.
4
JJ69, I do not disagree with you. Indeed I was surprised that an Iranian carried out a terrorist attack. There are lots of Turks in Germany (One of my Turkish students points out that Berlin is the world's second largest Turkish city).
And I dare say they are not always nice to Iranians.
It might well have been a fight between Muslims and other Muslims, where some non-Muslims were also hurt.
But let me ask, does this observation actually give you comfort?
Liberals are so busy fighting Republicans (and vice versa) that they forget there is a world out there and innocent human beings to protect.
And I dare say they are not always nice to Iranians.
It might well have been a fight between Muslims and other Muslims, where some non-Muslims were also hurt.
But let me ask, does this observation actually give you comfort?
Liberals are so busy fighting Republicans (and vice versa) that they forget there is a world out there and innocent human beings to protect.
7
@rohit.
Get the facts.
He wasn't Iranian. He was German -- and born in Munich.
Get the facts.
He wasn't Iranian. He was German -- and born in Munich.
1
Another "Mass Killing of the Week" --
Which raises the specter of a possibility almost too horrible to imagine...
Maybe they're right, after all -- Maybe it's true when they say...
"Guns don't kill people - people kill people." --
No - sorry -- back to the comments regarding the need for more stringent gun control...
Which raises the specter of a possibility almost too horrible to imagine...
Maybe they're right, after all -- Maybe it's true when they say...
"Guns don't kill people - people kill people." --
No - sorry -- back to the comments regarding the need for more stringent gun control...
4
People with guns kill people.
(The axe attack about a week earlier didn't kill anybody and many fewer people were injured.)
(The axe attack about a week earlier didn't kill anybody and many fewer people were injured.)
7
But the truck in France killed a lot of people.
CNN reported that a witness, a Muslim herself, was in that McDonald's with her son and heard the shooter shout "Allahu Akbar" before killing children.
96
Whether or not a witness actually heard that is another matter. It has already become abundantly clear that many witnesses said things that were untrue. For example, a witness declared there were three shooters, which has been proven to be untrue.
3
It was also reported that there were three gunmen and that they had long guns. That turned out to be false as well. Why do you cling to this nonsense, when no other media outlet found a single other witness who heard the gunman shout anything like "Allahu Akbar"?
And why would a NON-RELIGIOUS Iranian - who, even if Muslim by birth would have been a Shi'a, and therefore an ISIS target not an ISIS soldier - yell anything about Allah?
Think before posting, please.
And why would a NON-RELIGIOUS Iranian - who, even if Muslim by birth would have been a Shi'a, and therefore an ISIS target not an ISIS soldier - yell anything about Allah?
Think before posting, please.
2
@Savannah,
I just posted what CNN said - you should ask them to think, please. Of course you choose to believe what you want and not to listen to something you don't like.
I just posted what CNN said - you should ask them to think, please. Of course you choose to believe what you want and not to listen to something you don't like.
2
"there was no evidence that his rampage, at a McDonald’s and a nearby shopping mall, had been driven by religion or IMMIGRATION, issues that have been contentious in Germany and across Europe."
But the further in the article:
"One of the bystanders fumed at “Turks,” and the gunman replied, “I am German,” “I was born here."
But the further in the article:
"One of the bystanders fumed at “Turks,” and the gunman replied, “I am German,” “I was born here."
10
I am beginning to question to what degree these terrorist atrocities are actually politically motivated - I am increasingly inclined to see them as mental health disasters of mentally disturbed young men. Reading the histories of these men during the past several years reveals a consistent pattern of them emerging from grossly dysfunctional families, and unable to form stable, loving relationships.
Societies can give 'license' to mentally ill people to commit crimes: we saw this in the Third Reich, we saw it in the lynching of black citizens by the KKK, and many other examples can be cited. To some degree the radically destructive minority in Islam also can give license to the mentally ill within their ranks to commit violence. We see in Trump's rallies a disturbing trend of mob hostility that could, if given real power, result in actual violence, because that 'license' is clearly being given.
The question, which I cannot answer here, is how to find these isolated and angry young men and intervene before they act out so much horror upon others. But in several cases, family members were aware of the emotional problems but nothing was really done about it. Perhaps that is a place to start change.
Societies can give 'license' to mentally ill people to commit crimes: we saw this in the Third Reich, we saw it in the lynching of black citizens by the KKK, and many other examples can be cited. To some degree the radically destructive minority in Islam also can give license to the mentally ill within their ranks to commit violence. We see in Trump's rallies a disturbing trend of mob hostility that could, if given real power, result in actual violence, because that 'license' is clearly being given.
The question, which I cannot answer here, is how to find these isolated and angry young men and intervene before they act out so much horror upon others. But in several cases, family members were aware of the emotional problems but nothing was really done about it. Perhaps that is a place to start change.
11
How and where did a teenager in Germany, who apparently did not have links to an organized group, get a Glock with 300 rounds of ammunition? I am waiting for the answer.
154
Where there is a will, there's a way.
6
Easy. Lots of guns flowing in from the East and the Balkans. You only need to travel in the right circles at the right times and you have no trouble getting one. The borders to the East are essentially open. It is probably easier to get an illegal gun in Germany than in the US.
2
@marie
To answer your question. It is still under investigation by the Bundeskriminalamt.
To answer your question. It is still under investigation by the Bundeskriminalamt.
I suspect a coverup re the Islam inspiration. Keep your eyes out for more news. They usually release info in low key way a week or two later.
72
@tully
That may be the case...But it might also be the result of bullying gone awry.
According to the German media, the young man was already under treatment for Depression.
That may be the case...But it might also be the result of bullying gone awry.
According to the German media, the young man was already under treatment for Depression.
1
70 recommend this..........paranoia is contagious.
No apparent radical ties? That was the fastest investigatory conclusion in a long, long time!!
136
adj
apparent
appearing as such but not necessarily so
"for all his apparent wealth he had no money to pay the rent","the committee investigated some apparent discrepancies","the ostensible truth of their theories","his seeming honesty"
apparent
appearing as such but not necessarily so
"for all his apparent wealth he had no money to pay the rent","the committee investigated some apparent discrepancies","the ostensible truth of their theories","his seeming honesty"
3
With every other radical Islamic terrorist their ties to radical Islam were abundantly evident.
There is no evidence whatsoever that this kid was even a practising Muslim, never mind a radical jihadi.
There is, however, plenty of evidence that he was bullied, being treated for depression, and obsessed with mass shooting and killers like Anders Breivik.
Accept the evidence for what it is, even if it doesn't fit your preconceptions.
There is no evidence whatsoever that this kid was even a practising Muslim, never mind a radical jihadi.
There is, however, plenty of evidence that he was bullied, being treated for depression, and obsessed with mass shooting and killers like Anders Breivik.
Accept the evidence for what it is, even if it doesn't fit your preconceptions.
Are you disappointed? I would certainly hope, what kind of person would want such a tragedy to further their own agenda?
So sad. As with all killings by teens have to investigate why he was not helped appropriately, including shielded from bullying, and of course gun acquisition.
This was a kid clearly desperate to pay back those who hurt him and go out in a blaze of glory. Wonder if there IS an Islam connection in that that might have been why he was bullied. Would be important to know composition of his school and neighbourhood.
This was a kid clearly desperate to pay back those who hurt him and go out in a blaze of glory. Wonder if there IS an Islam connection in that that might have been why he was bullied. Would be important to know composition of his school and neighbourhood.
1
Was there something released about the shooter being bullied? Not all people who commit mass murders have been bullied or mistreated at all. If they are paranoid schizophrenics, its caused by a brain chemistry malfunction. What I read about here was a kid with long standing mental issues serious enuf to get him hospitalized, known to be obsessed with mass shootings, who lured classmates to the mall so he could shoot them. Seems just like the Lanza case to me. As long as guns and explosives are available (and I believe we will never remove them totally from society) then there are going to be sick young men committing mass murder.
5
Germany has very strict gun control laws and a good health system. How can any society defend themselves from such monstrous acts?
7
Most of the time Germany manages to do just that, partly due to how difficult it is to get one's hands on a gun there.
1
There are no 100% guarantees in life, but good laws and good mental health care reduced the number of such acts.
2
Please don't mix up how hard it is to get a legal gun with getting an illegal one. We had loads of Kalashnikows and other stuff because of the breakdown of Sovietunion, Jugoslawia etc.
I was a bit surprised that this guy could buy a relatively new Glock...
I was a bit surprised that this guy could buy a relatively new Glock...
Another angry young man with a gun. It's happened here so many times I've lost count. Each of these is an act of "terror" but we don't seem to get as worked up by it as we do if there's a sliver of a chance that it's ISIL inspired.
Even those so-called ISIL inspired killers are really just young angry men. I'm not sure what the solution is. In this nation certainly better gun control and better access to mental health services would be a start.
It sounds as though this young man was bullied. Perhaps we can also do better being kind to one another so that (some of) this anger can never find a foothold.
I grieve for all those who lost loved ones in these tragedies that stretch across the globe on a near daily basis. I mourn for our humanity and hope we can discover a response that involves finding our humanity rather than disposing of it through more violence. I know it's probably a pipe dream. Mankind has been slaughtering one another since time began....but I can hope. That's all I have.
Even those so-called ISIL inspired killers are really just young angry men. I'm not sure what the solution is. In this nation certainly better gun control and better access to mental health services would be a start.
It sounds as though this young man was bullied. Perhaps we can also do better being kind to one another so that (some of) this anger can never find a foothold.
I grieve for all those who lost loved ones in these tragedies that stretch across the globe on a near daily basis. I mourn for our humanity and hope we can discover a response that involves finding our humanity rather than disposing of it through more violence. I know it's probably a pipe dream. Mankind has been slaughtering one another since time began....but I can hope. That's all I have.
2
In the video, the attacker himself fumes against Turks. Seven of his victims were teenagers with foreign roots. Three were from Kosovo, three from Turkey and one from Greece. There are many immigrants living around the OEZ, but it is remarkable that seven of the nine known victims were not ethnic Germans. We still don't know what to make of this, but it seems to me that we are dealing with a tragedy that has nothing to do with Islam or the recent migration wave, but a troubled young man, who hated immigrants like himself.
24
That conclusion which seems to be a great comfort to the politicalestablishment should in fact cause great consternation and foreboding. Whie an organized terror movement is more easiy battled by the organized forces of the state LE and military, a disembodied and freelance type of terrorist who acts either as an individual or small group can and does cause as much terror as the organized terror group does.
3
We have "disembodied terrorists" in this country who commit mass murders all the time. They kill an awful lot of people, too.
He committed a terrorist act. By definition he has ties to terrorism. It's no surprise that the German government would avoid admitting this, as it is using denial and distraction as a method of survival.
32
So you are saying he is a terrorist because he has ties to himself?
So you would agree then that Adam Lanza, Dylann Roof, Elliot Rodger, James Holmes, Eric Harris, Dylan Klebold, Robert Dear et al are all terrorists, I presume.
1
Is that the case with every mass-shooting in the US? Committing an act of terrorism and "having ties to terrorism" are not the same, nor does one automatically follow from the other.
Performing an act of terror doesn't make one in league with ISIS any more than hitting a baseball makes on in league with the New York Yankees.
Performing an act of terror doesn't make one in league with ISIS any more than hitting a baseball makes on in league with the New York Yankees.
Disorganized and individualized acts of terror are of equal concern as those of organized collective group terrorism, in fact, it is more dangerous in that it is almost impossible to both detect and deter.
7
My children attended German elementary school and were bullied. When I went to the teacher to ask for help she commented that they had to figure it out themselves; that was part of growing up and adults don't interfere.
Children, especially gastarbeiter children, are bullied and the system does little to help.
That there have not been more shootings from bullied kids may be attributed to the lack of access to guns in Germany. It is certainly not because the schools have taken interest in the phenomenon.
Children, especially gastarbeiter children, are bullied and the system does little to help.
That there have not been more shootings from bullied kids may be attributed to the lack of access to guns in Germany. It is certainly not because the schools have taken interest in the phenomenon.
26
Bullying is common place around the world. It is happening in the US as much as in Germany. And, as the teacher says, it is part of growing up. Except that in the US, the bullied child, not the bully, gets suspended when it defends him or herself.
The teacher was right...
1
This is the kind of story I've been dreading. Not only because I have family in Germany, but because it had to happen sooner or later.
Following this incident unfold on through the eyes of the German Press, it was clear what kind of panic the country is in after a teenager senselessly attacked several people on a commuter train last week.
He was a refugee. This young man wasn't.
But that didn't stop the right-wing nationalist rhetoric from jumpng off the screens of social networking plaftorms, or stop people from connecting the dots to the recent terrorist attacks happening throughout Europe.
The only thing for certain is that there's no way of predicting things like this. And that sooner or later, it will happen again.
Following this incident unfold on through the eyes of the German Press, it was clear what kind of panic the country is in after a teenager senselessly attacked several people on a commuter train last week.
He was a refugee. This young man wasn't.
But that didn't stop the right-wing nationalist rhetoric from jumpng off the screens of social networking plaftorms, or stop people from connecting the dots to the recent terrorist attacks happening throughout Europe.
The only thing for certain is that there's no way of predicting things like this. And that sooner or later, it will happen again.
8
The killer was suffering from depression probably
brought on by difficult financial situation and bullying
in school where he may not have been accepted a
German. He killed himself. He might have committed
suicide without harming any one. He seems to be
seething with anger which he projected onto the
society and revenged with his killing spree. Sad
for the young people who lost their lives. Family
should have sought help for the treatment of mental
illness. Ultimately families and schools can play a big role
by quickly seeking help if they notice signs of mental
problem or religious or political extremism.
brought on by difficult financial situation and bullying
in school where he may not have been accepted a
German. He killed himself. He might have committed
suicide without harming any one. He seems to be
seething with anger which he projected onto the
society and revenged with his killing spree. Sad
for the young people who lost their lives. Family
should have sought help for the treatment of mental
illness. Ultimately families and schools can play a big role
by quickly seeking help if they notice signs of mental
problem or religious or political extremism.
5
He may not have had a direct ties to terrorist organizations but I would bet that when they check his phone and his computer they will find that he had been to terror-related websites whose rhetoric make it sound as if this type activity is acceptable or at least within the realm of activities that potential wrong-doers might consider engaging in.
It's the power of suggestion. Previously deranged people who intended to do harm would never have considered doing stuff like this.
It's the power of suggestion. Previously deranged people who intended to do harm would never have considered doing stuff like this.
76
Mike,
Are you saying this because his name is Ali? Do you recall the name Andreas Lubitz? He flew an airplane into a hillside. He was troubled, depressed, and decided to take several innocent lives in his final act. Not unlike this poor young man. Sometimes a name is just a name.
Are you saying this because his name is Ali? Do you recall the name Andreas Lubitz? He flew an airplane into a hillside. He was troubled, depressed, and decided to take several innocent lives in his final act. Not unlike this poor young man. Sometimes a name is just a name.
7
And your evidence, "But I would bet that when they check his phone and his computer they will find that he had been to terror-related websites whose rhetoric make it sound as if this type activity is acceptable or at least within the realm of activities that potential wrong-doers might consider engaging in", is based on what exactly?
Interesting that he had a copy of an American study of why young people kill. Later reports refer to this young man luring people to be killed by a fake facebook posting. It could even be a very sick young man, who wanted to punish anyone he perceived as a bully.
The fifth anniversary of the Anders Brevik massacre, seems more than coincidental. What was the background of Anders Brevik again?
Interesting that he had a copy of an American study of why young people kill. Later reports refer to this young man luring people to be killed by a fake facebook posting. It could even be a very sick young man, who wanted to punish anyone he perceived as a bully.
The fifth anniversary of the Anders Brevik massacre, seems more than coincidental. What was the background of Anders Brevik again?
1
He looked up sites and read books about mass shootings. This is more like Columbine.
as i've recommended in previous posts, these "terrorist" acts should be interpreted first as suicides, typically suicides by firearm, often suicides by cop and, because they involve innocent bystanders, "suicide by cop with prejudice."
both the government and the media, for their separate but interlocking motives, spin the "terrorist" narrative first of all. however there is a well known copycat motivation in the performance of mass shootings, and there will therefore be a copycat element in the expressed motivation as well.
i'm not discounting the episodes where the terrorist element is well documented, as in the attacks in paris. i question the claim of a terrorist motive in troubled, deviant and self hating individuals who want to cloak their inadequacies in a meretricious glory, as was tje case with the orlando shooter.
at the social level terrorism is crime, not warfare, and at the personal level it is deviance, not devotion. angry deviance is evident in the psychological and criminal profiles of these shooters, and in their fascination with mass death.
i suggest we confront a global public health problem, stimulated by media reports, for which militaristic, surveillance and authoritarian responses are (and will prove to be) completely inadequate.
both the government and the media, for their separate but interlocking motives, spin the "terrorist" narrative first of all. however there is a well known copycat motivation in the performance of mass shootings, and there will therefore be a copycat element in the expressed motivation as well.
i'm not discounting the episodes where the terrorist element is well documented, as in the attacks in paris. i question the claim of a terrorist motive in troubled, deviant and self hating individuals who want to cloak their inadequacies in a meretricious glory, as was tje case with the orlando shooter.
at the social level terrorism is crime, not warfare, and at the personal level it is deviance, not devotion. angry deviance is evident in the psychological and criminal profiles of these shooters, and in their fascination with mass death.
i suggest we confront a global public health problem, stimulated by media reports, for which militaristic, surveillance and authoritarian responses are (and will prove to be) completely inadequate.
12
I am not so sure that is a correct judgment, as almost all terror acts committed have ended up with the bad actors being killed or killing themselves. A suicide is deemed as such when it is committed by a mentally deranged individual not motivated by a political, military or religious objective act. Many Islamic extremeists have been of the sort whose aim it is to kill as many people as possible and who have the intent of dying as part of this act, so this is not a suicide as psychologists have traditionally coined the act. Nor is it a 'suicide by cop', in which an individual merely crafts a violent act with the primary or singular desire to have the police arrive and are forced to shoot him. Good day.
6
Please use capitalization at beginning of sentences. Lack of it makes sentences harder to read. Thanks.
People have Forgotten WWII Kamikazes they were not insane!
Neither are Radical muslim Terrorists
Neither are Radical muslim Terrorists
1
My sincere condolences to the grieving families who lost their children by this angry, insane, ruthless young man. But it is satisfying the German Authorities determined that this killer to be a lone ranger quickly and not let the murderous attack be claimed by ISIS who thrive and are happy when we undergo suffrage.
6
Suffrage is when women can vote. Actually applies to anyone but in Muslim world women may be treated differently.
6
These massive killings in Nice and Munich are demonstrating not how ISIS has embodied itself into our society but rather, how many deranged individuals live among us. These mentally unbalance individuals can be incited by various reasons, e.g., news on other massive shootings or ISIS propagandas. They kill not for Allah and not for Palestine. They are simply looking for a quick end to their painful lives with accompanying victims.
12
Is it any better when little children get slaughtered by people with blond hair and blue eyes?
No, why would you think that? Also murdering adults is just as wrong as murdering "little children".
However, it might give a clue that bombing the Middle East will not prevent this kind of events on domestic terrain.
However, it might give a clue that bombing the Middle East will not prevent this kind of events on domestic terrain.
Sadly, these spontaneous and random mass murders appear to be a staple of the new millennium. Even a country with strict gun control could not prevent this from happening (although it does lessen the chances). Unfortunately, another staple of the new millennium is extreme wealth inequality and/or marginalization of large ethnic populations, both here and abroad.
In the United States one need only to have watched the four days of the Republican National Convention to understand this. When the television cameras scanned the audience what one saw was an angry, frightened mob. These are people who have been left behind and no longer believe in the American Dream, the belief that the next generation will be better off. They are angry and confused - they cannot afford health care, cannot afford to send their children to college and live from paycheck to paycheck. They do not know where to turn and in their desperation are susceptible to demagoguery and race-baiting. The slippery slope to fascism and totalitarianism was on full display at the RNC.
In Europe, the immigration of poor Islamic people from the Middle East and North Africa to do the "dirty work", without ever bothering to integrate them into society and the economy, had created a Fifth Column of angry citizens in many countries, bitter people who are susceptible to ISIS exhortations to create chaos and destroy.
Sadly, these acts of domestic terrorism and mass murder will not disappear anytime soon.
In the United States one need only to have watched the four days of the Republican National Convention to understand this. When the television cameras scanned the audience what one saw was an angry, frightened mob. These are people who have been left behind and no longer believe in the American Dream, the belief that the next generation will be better off. They are angry and confused - they cannot afford health care, cannot afford to send their children to college and live from paycheck to paycheck. They do not know where to turn and in their desperation are susceptible to demagoguery and race-baiting. The slippery slope to fascism and totalitarianism was on full display at the RNC.
In Europe, the immigration of poor Islamic people from the Middle East and North Africa to do the "dirty work", without ever bothering to integrate them into society and the economy, had created a Fifth Column of angry citizens in many countries, bitter people who are susceptible to ISIS exhortations to create chaos and destroy.
Sadly, these acts of domestic terrorism and mass murder will not disappear anytime soon.
19
Wait... You are saying most Republican delegates are "left behind"? Unlikely. Becoming a state delegate is a process, not an open invite. You need to pay travel etc.
10
Nobody forced the "poor Islamic people from the Middle East and North Africa" to move to Europe. They came because they found a life better than in their countries of origin. High quality health care, social security, free education for their kids, unemployment or welfare benefits when they lost their jobs and more, all these while living in a free society. If this makes them so angry that they want to kill innocents and themselves, than I believe one should help them to move back to the countries where their roots are.
135
This may be the best thing written on this subject. Bravo!...The bottom line is that this will start to happen every day, perhaps more than once a day, and I am not sure there is a thing we can do about it.
immigration did have a hand in this...... he was born in germany but obviously his non aryan heritage and features made him a target for bullying and alienation...... and then there is the gun, always the gun these days....
"If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off."- chekhov
"If you say in the first chapter that there is a rifle hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off."- chekhov
15
Interesting that many commenters assume he was bullied and angry due to racism, poor, etc. He may have been bullied based on ethnicity - or for the many other "reasons" kids bully kids -- he was scrawny, odd, shy, bad at sports, etc. He may have gone to a mostly non-white school. I know several Iranians living in Europe, all are wealthy. Assuming these things are also a twisted form of racism.
13
@ nope..... in the article they tell us that he had a heated verbal argument with some people at a parking garage where they called him a "Turk" just before the attack. what other form of racism is there besides racism based on ethnicity?
2
Actually, he was Aryan and the German kids aren't. The word "Aryan" refers to the various people who came out of Persia , and includes the fair skinned conquerors of Northern India, the Irish, and the people who live in Iran today. (That is why it is called Iran). The reason modern day Iranians are not all blonde and blue eyed (some still are) is that they have intermarried with Arabs over the past several Millennia. The code of Manu in India was designed to preserve "the purity of the Aryan race", and as you can see it didn't work very well. Hitler noticed that the Germans were also blond and blue-eyed and so decided they were also Aryans. Hitler lied and/or was delusional. Big Surprise.
1
Robert Spencer wrote,"Hubertus Andrae, and Angela Merkel, and Theresa May, and Manuel Valls, and John Kerry, and Barack Obama, and every last one of the other Western leaders are resolutely and determinedly ignorant about what it means when a young Iranian Muslim screaming “Allahu akbar” opens fire in a shopping mall."Now reports are coming in that he was seriously depressed.The stupidity here is that people who are seriously depressed think to kill themselves, not innocent others.
85
Only there was never confirmation the shooter shouted that. In contrast, multiple sources have translated him saying he felt compelled to shoot people as revenge for being bullied, and this article reports that both police records and schoolmates confirm he was bullied.
6
There have been mixed reports of what he was screaming. They directly contradict each other.
Excitedly jumping to conclusions is exactly what we don't need right now.
Excitedly jumping to conclusions is exactly what we don't need right now.
2
What about his then ? The Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting occurred on December 14, 2012, in Newtown, Connecticut, when 20-year-old Adam Lanza fatally shot 20 children aged between 6 and 7 years old, as well as six adult staff members. Prior to driving to the school, Lanza shot and killed his mother at their Newtown home. As first responders arrived at the scene, Lanza committed suicide by shooting himself in the head.
1
The German people don't believe a word of that explanation and neither do I.
114
Maybe what you imply here is true--maybe--but thus far no terrorist with a gun has killed themselves. So this does not quite fit the mold. Why not continue until stopped, like all the others did? Maybe he had a moment of sanity and eliminated the shooter himself. More likely the killing was not the fun he expected, was horrible, and it was not a video game one could restart. Sad no matter what is unearthed.
Your cynicism is neither helpful nor persuasive.
3
Who are you to speak for German people?
3
His origin and his presumed religion will be enough for Trump et al to chalk this up as justification for extreme xenophobic policy-making...with or without proven connection.
11
If this horrid event had happened in the U.S. the odds would have been (are) greater that the 18 year old would have used an assault rifle - and how many, many, many, more people would have lost their lives.
218
The Virginia Tech shooter (32 dead, plus 17 wounded) used pistols. One of them a Glock.
5
A semiautomatic pistol, like this Glock, is fundamentally the same device. Every round is deadly. Why would the death toll have been greater?
4
The Nice shooter used only a pistol, too. It's not the kind of gun; it's the killer himself that matters
4
I looked at the picture of the father who lost his son and I try to imagine what it must be like and I draw a blank. I am overwhelmed by the enormity and the frequency of these terrorist attacks in Europe and here in our country.
We are at war with terrorism but I have no idea how or where we fight.
We are at war with terrorism but I have no idea how or where we fight.
7
Perhaps covering these mass atrocities as sensational headline-making news is exactly the wrong tack if we truly want to discourage them. Given the acute awareness that perpetrators of mass violence seem to have about others who have committed these offenses, the notoriety that accrues -- whether one's goal is global terror or simply a memorable suicide -- seems to be a factor, if not the primary motivation for murderous action. Maybe the key is to concentrate follow-up articles on the effects to the victims, and to entirely strike the incessant investigative pieces about the perpetrator for a single report of the suspected attacker's name (if adult), citizenship, and established/known facts regarding motive.
22
I agree completely. Editors should stop with the constant loops of video on news programs, no pictures of the assailant or their name should be released. No amplification of the terror and fear aroused by the acts. Just dry factual information, read by newscasters or better, printed in the media without pictures. When describing the assailant the emphasis should be on how mentally ill, unfit, and cowardly they were in killing themselves rather than facing the families of those they have killed. They need to be described as hopeless losers, not religious martyrs.
I am not advocating censorship, these modifications of coverage are editorial decisions that a responsible media should implement for the public good, not because of a law that requires it.
I am not advocating censorship, these modifications of coverage are editorial decisions that a responsible media should implement for the public good, not because of a law that requires it.
17
It would seem cold comfort to know that the 'law enforcement apparatus was available and ready to act' when a young man says he's going to go on a shooting rampage and does. The inaction of those in his sphere is a painful reality. The loss of young lives shouldn't be so easily glossed over.
Sincere condolences to the families.
Sincere condolences to the families.
9
It would be better for all concerned if suicidal individuals sought help rather than to murder a number of strangers to get up the courage to kill themselves.
50
I can't help wondering to what extent his parents were paying attention to his emotional condition.
Were they aware but completely underestimated the seriousness of it?
Were they oblivious?
Were they aware but completely underestimated the seriousness of it?
Were they oblivious?
5
J Jenks:
If you routinely want to suspect every brooding adolescent boy of harboring suicidal or homicidal feelings, you have your work cut out for you. Many boys will go through a depressive phase at one point or another during puberty. The only difference is severity and that is not easily recognized, even by the parents.
If you routinely want to suspect every brooding adolescent boy of harboring suicidal or homicidal feelings, you have your work cut out for you. Many boys will go through a depressive phase at one point or another during puberty. The only difference is severity and that is not easily recognized, even by the parents.
1
let me add to my post:
...even by the parents, who may themselves feel guilty for the pain of their child and protect themselves by denying the problem.
...even by the parents, who may themselves feel guilty for the pain of their child and protect themselves by denying the problem.
Condolences to Munich.
Adam Lanza, revisited.
Adam Lanza, revisited.
52
Europe has most stringent policies regarding gun ownership.
All useless information aside, where did he get the gun AND an arsenal of some 300 cartridges?
All useless information aside, where did he get the gun AND an arsenal of some 300 cartridges?
181
Back in the 90s, a friend of mine attended a school that prepared students especially for non-academic work. The school was part of a small rural-like german city. He was taken to a nearby street by a colleague of his. That student had a contact with an old car. In the trunk were some assault rifles. My friend called the police later and they arrested the guy... Yeah, it ist sometimes that easy here, too... You just need money and contacts. It is the same world. So many people are frustrated with US laws, and they're right, but in a way it is weird here, too.
8
"All useless information aside, where did he get the gun AND an arsenal of some 300 cartridges?"
After reading this NYT piece, searching beneath those irrelevant news articles would be a logical place to start.
Lets do the rational thing and stop pretending the entire world is not awash in guns. For example, look up estimates of how many are stolen from law enforcement armories which are replaced almost immediately for future criminal use, and get over it. 300 rds?..he was under supplied by most modern standards.
After reading this NYT piece, searching beneath those irrelevant news articles would be a logical place to start.
Lets do the rational thing and stop pretending the entire world is not awash in guns. For example, look up estimates of how many are stolen from law enforcement armories which are replaced almost immediately for future criminal use, and get over it. 300 rds?..he was under supplied by most modern standards.
6
Banning guns is as effective as banning drugs.
7
So not an ISIS inspired terrorist, but just your garden variety racist or psychotic. Somehow that doesn't make me feel any better.
Heart goes out to all of the poor souls who lost their lives and were otherwise affected.
Heart goes out to all of the poor souls who lost their lives and were otherwise affected.
84
Seems all too frequent flareups all of a sudden.
Look at the style of tha attack, just wait and see for the quiet acknowledgement of the real source of his inspiration.
Look at the style of tha attack, just wait and see for the quiet acknowledgement of the real source of his inspiration.
7
AnyboyNJ: "not an ISIS inpried terrorist"
Do we really know his motivation yet. He did not seem to have any connection to his victims except they were part of the culture of his host country.
This has something in common with the shooting in San-Bernardino, Orlando, and Fort Hood. More specifically that the shooter who might be referred to as "home grown" had middle eastern parents from cultures with very different values. Did he and his parents assimilate well into German culture? Where did his victims have in common other than being Germans.
John
Do we really know his motivation yet. He did not seem to have any connection to his victims except they were part of the culture of his host country.
This has something in common with the shooting in San-Bernardino, Orlando, and Fort Hood. More specifically that the shooter who might be referred to as "home grown" had middle eastern parents from cultures with very different values. Did he and his parents assimilate well into German culture? Where did his victims have in common other than being Germans.
John
11
@John: Iran is not in the Middle East and is not an Arabic country.
1
Modern semi-automatic guns have been in civilian households for over 100 years.
The prevalence of gun ownership (total households that own firearms) has been trending down worldwide for several decades.
I'm guessing here, but I imagine far more kids (under 20) owned and shot firearms in the past (e.g. hunting, recreational target shooting) then in modern times. For example, I know of no children in our area who own & shoot a .22 rifle, for instance...but many of their grandparents owned such firearms at a young age.
So what has changed here? Why the increase in mass shooting events? It's not the prevalence of guns, or the type of guns, or access to guns. It's not the laws, as Germany has stricter laws than us regarding ownership.
The variable of causation in the mass shooting equation is something else. I don't know what it is, but "guns" is an incorrect and simplistic answer.
The prevalence of gun ownership (total households that own firearms) has been trending down worldwide for several decades.
I'm guessing here, but I imagine far more kids (under 20) owned and shot firearms in the past (e.g. hunting, recreational target shooting) then in modern times. For example, I know of no children in our area who own & shoot a .22 rifle, for instance...but many of their grandparents owned such firearms at a young age.
So what has changed here? Why the increase in mass shooting events? It's not the prevalence of guns, or the type of guns, or access to guns. It's not the laws, as Germany has stricter laws than us regarding ownership.
The variable of causation in the mass shooting equation is something else. I don't know what it is, but "guns" is an incorrect and simplistic answer.
47
One common thread that rarely gets mentioned is the use of anti-depressants. These drugs are dangerous and cause certain individuals to act in abnormal ways. A great many of these shooters we prescribed drugs but it's unknown if they were monitored for psychotic thoughts provoked by the drugs.
3
Simple, its the dissemination of information via TV, internet, social networks etc. Today any psychopath can find soulmates around the world, and encouragement to act in this crazy manner. Also, I would not disregard the fact that he is an immigrant in Germany from a muslim country. This clash of civilization scenario can cause a lot of frustration.
4
You are quite right! In rural areas of the past EVERYONE had a gun. Kids would use them to get food or just mess around. Friends tell me of times the guns would be stacked in a coat room with not a second thought. That was when guns were more central to survival. But that was also when family was intact, gender was stable and faith was strong. None of those stated assumptions of our culture are now true. If you are bullied, have no faith, and have no hero (parent) in your corner, then a massacre becomes a more rational option to the disturbed person.
6
Each sensationalized killing like this guarantees there will be a next one.
First, there is the media attention the killings get. Instant fame (or infamy) is guaranteed. Second, copycats have access to readymade source material with everything from the "how's" to the "why's" all spelled out for them.
The sad thing is that this case is a green light for the next potential killer.
First, there is the media attention the killings get. Instant fame (or infamy) is guaranteed. Second, copycats have access to readymade source material with everything from the "how's" to the "why's" all spelled out for them.
The sad thing is that this case is a green light for the next potential killer.
31
It is a fallacy to think that we can just turn off the reporting of such a tragic event like we do a water spout. Do not even go there.
Just waiting for Trump to take advantage of the tragic event- he is a master of fear mongering among the people. This kid was mentally disturbed - period. However, cunning manipulative tyrant like Trump always tries to divert people's mind to make it "us vs. them". It is disgusting that such a creature can be the nominee of the major political party in our great nation. His political philosophy of hate, fear and division is breaking the foundation of our country.
96
Yeah, Trump's "us vs. them," as opposed to the "us vs. them" that everyone on the progressive left is perfectly fine with—the "sane" vs. the "mentally ill."
5
Medman, for your sanity i would recommend withrowing this kind of acusation and projecting your personal opinions and thougths on events that had not happened yet.
1
Well said.
Born and raised in Munich. No xenophobic border closing regime would have prevented this terrible killing. Sending strength and sanity to my friends in Germany from here in NYC!
144
Careful, your argument also applies to gun control. Europe has some of the most stringent laws on gun control, yet this guy got his hands on guns and ammunition to perform an act of terrorism. Does that mean that control laws are useless?
2
Yes, like Omar Mateen, Syed Farook, Nidal Hasan, Amedy Coulibaly and the Kouachi brothers, Abdelhamid Abaaoud--I could go on--the Munich shooter was born and raised in the West. The correct lesson is not that border security is useless but that vetting of migrants from the Islamic world is futile since the second generation of Muslim immigrants is more dangerous than the first. Eliminating all migration from those countries is only sensible.
9
It is not even close to sensible. You can't bar a whole group of people on the basis of religion because of what the children of a tiny fraction of them may do. Since, 9/11, domestic terror in the U.S. is as likely to be a result of right-wing extremists as Islamist ones.
1
It seems that mass killings are becoming more and more common these days. I say this because the terrorist attack in Nice leaving 84 dead only occurred last week. Now, Germany mourns for their own as they are left with the aftermath of a mass shooting that took place on Friday, July 22nd leaving 9 dead and 16 wounded. The man responsible for this attack wasn’t a man at all. The shooter, Ali Sonboly, was only 18 years old. It saddens me that someone only 3 years older than I am could commit such a horrendous act. The article states that Ali Sonboly was not in any terrorist organizations or affiliated with terrorists. A fellow classmate even said “This has nothing to do with Islam,” she said. “It’s because he was bullied.” Police also say that he was bullied severely and had mental issues. This just goes to show that bullying should not be taken lightly, it is a serious issue that cannot be ignored. Sonboly also played many violent video games, and a person with mental health problems should definitely not be exposed to such things. The people of Germany still fear for their lives and that they are not safe due to the fact that Europe has been the target of mass attacks lately. It isn’t fair that one person can be so unhappy with their own life that they have to take the lives of many innocent people who they do not know, and it isn’t fair that they can do this so easily.